30600 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:26am Subject: Bodily intimation, note 27, no 3. Bodily Intimation, Tiika: Note 27, no 3. Text: 'Since it has been said that the apprehension of intimation is next to the apprehension of the appearance of motion, how then, is the air element itself as the maker of the movement accompanied by the alteration consisting in the intimation? It is not like that. It is the air elements given rise to by the first impulsion, etc., and which are unable to cause movement in that way and perform only the stiffening and upholding, that should be taken as only accompanied by the alteration belonging to intimation. For it is the alteration coexistent with the intention that is the intimation, because of giving rise to alteration in whatever direction it wishes to cause the occurrence of moving forward and so on. Taking it in this way, it is perfectly logical to say that the origination of intimation belongs to mind-door adverting. N: Cittas in a mind-door process that wish to display a meaning condition the rupa that is bodily intimation. Text: Since the intention possessed of the aforesaid alteration is intimated through the apprehension of that alteration, it is said that "Its function is to display intention". The air element being the cause of the motion of the body intimation, is figuratively said, as a state of alteration, to be "manifested as the cause of bodily motion". "Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated air-element" is said since the air element's excessive function is the cause of intimating intention by movement of the body' (Pm. 450-52). Cf. DhsA. 83f. N: excessive function of the air-element: to recap the beginning of this note: The excess of the element of wind or motion does not mean: there is more of it in that group, but is means: it plays its specific part in being capable of causing gestures etc. expressing a meaning. Thus the excess is not quantitative. The citta that conditions intimation arises in a mind-door process, and the citta that apprehands that intimation also arises in a mind-door process. Quote from the Expositor (p. 111, 112): **** Conclusion: The rupa of bodily intimation is only an as we read. It is rupa, it does not know anything. But when cittas arise that wish to display intention, this rupa, a certain, unique change in the great elements, is the means to communicate an intention. Before we realize it we make gestures already or shake our heads, point with our fingers. There are only nama and rupa arising because of their own conditions, there is no person who owns nama and rupa. Nina. P.S. Next I'll send two posts on verbal intimation (taken from my Rupas). 30601 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/25/04 1:25:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Philip, > op 24-02-2004 15:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > >I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is > >we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa > >and nama in the moment. > N: I appreciate your interest, but this is not my idea at all! In that case > there can easily be a self who wants to do something, even something > constructive. It depends on the citta whether it reflects on realities or > not, and this is conditioned by listening. ======================== I agree, Nina, that this is conditioned by listening. But is that *all* that conditions this? (It's about all that I hear on this list! ;-) Oh, and one more thing: As regards listening, why would there not be a "self" who wants to do that constructive thing as well? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30602 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: Have you read the Thanissaro article to which I referred? James: Yes, I did. I read it before I sent the last post. I didn't want to comment too much because there are many, many things I don't agree with in that article. Actually, I did a complete double take when I read it! I was incredulous that Thanissaro had even written it. Judging from the great body of his other works, I will consider it just a fluke. Maybe it was simply written on a bad day. ;-) I'm sorry to be so vague but I don't feel compelled to point out the weaknesses I see in that article in such a public setting. However, if you think it may be of benefit to you and others, ask me again and I may (what is the Buddhist standard? Ask three times? ;-)) Well, these are modern times, twice will suffice. ;-) Jack: I think there is a question about the translation of different words in the suttas that are translated as jhanas. Robert K. seems to agree that, at least in the instance he examined, the translation should be meditation not jhana. James: That is probably right. It has been my observation with the suttas that whenever the Buddha speaks about jhana he doesn't use it as just a simple, one word description. He will go through the ENTIRE description for all four jhanas and their fruits whenever he spoke about jhana. Even when he spoke to householders about jhana, even though they probably had little idea of what he was describing, he would still go through the entire description. Some may argue that this is simply formulaic for the suttas and may not be the true way the Buddha spoke of the jhanas, but I am not so sure. It seems to be very consistent, and he would sometimes speak of other teachings in brief. I think it is significant and telling that the Buddha never spoke of the jhanas in brief. It demonstrates how valuable they are. Have you come across any instances where he spoke of jhanas in brief? Jack: I think the Ananapanasati Sutta pulls together a lot of different meditational techniques (such as 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, concentration and vipassana) found in other suttas into one unified meditational teaching. Certain steps in that sutta emphase different aspects. Some gravitate toward jhana work. The last four are pure vipassana. But, they are all part of one mental development teaching. James: Yes, I completely agree. The Anapanasati Sutta does describe how the breath can be used for fulfillment of the entire path. Personally, I often repeat this slogan to myself throughout the day to remind myself: "The Breath is my Religion". However, different people have different accumulations and the breath doesn't work for everyone at every stage in their development. Monks were given different meditation subjects dependent on their needs. It isn't a simple, cut-and-dry issue. Jack: I'm not sure we are not saying the same thing but using slightly different words. James: Yes, of course; I hope I didn't imply otherwise. I didn't want to try and `prove you wrong' or something—I am so weary of that! ;-). I just wanted to clarify for the sake of those who might be confused about these issues. After spending so many years of practice and study in these matters, as you and I have, it is easy to get sloppy in descriptions. Though you and I might know what we mean when we speak of things in brief, not everyone else does. I just wanted to clarify a bit. Glad you didn't mind. ;-) Metta, James 30603 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Nina, Thank you for your appreciation. The objective of this study is to know and apply these eight principles/criteria in recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. The study guide provides guidance and structure in this study in which we can examine the sutta passages for recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction using these eight principles/criteria. If you like, you may also want bring up some doctrine in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and examine it with the these eight principles for recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. That would offer some examples in applying these eight principles. Thank you for your interest. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > op 24-02-2004 15:53 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > I think at the > > moment the topic is on recognizing whether something is the Dhamma, > > the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. The Buddha taught > > Mahapajapati Gotami that: > > > > > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > > > > to passion, not to dispassion;(snipped) > You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the > > Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' > > > > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: etc. > N: Yes, quite right. Let us combine Sarah's quotes from the Intro to the > Vinaya and what you quote here. I see it this way: the Buddha taught the > Three Baskets and stressed that we should compare text with text, examine > the truth. And the practice should be in agreement with the truth. like in > the Kesaputta sutta (called Kalama) we should verify the practice with all > he taught in the Three Baskets. We can verify:what leads to more attachment, > what leads to detachment. Whatever we practise should lead to detachment. > This is the goal. We can come to the conclusion: understanding realities > appearing at this moment is in accordance with what we read before in the > texts. I just heard on tape A. Sujin saying: teachings and there is less attachment to the self you think of the others > more than of yourself. Of helping others in deed and speech at any time.> > This seems simple and very general, but it means: performing kusala not for > one's own sake, not with an idea of my kusala. > As Sarah quoted: the Abhidhamma helps us to see that there is no self. We > learn to see citta, cetasika and rupa as very impersonal, impersonal > elements arising because of conditions. We learn to see the momentariness of > dhammas when we study processes of cittas. Details help. > I appreciate the way you lead this discussion, Victor. It helps me to > consider more. > Nina. 30604 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, Philip: Sorry, I don't know how to upload photos as requested, but will figure it out one of these years! :) Everybody in the album looks so kind. James: Since you found the album and how to view the pictures the rest is easy: You should see a link at the top of the album thumbnails page called "Add Photo". Click this and it will open a new widow which will have several places where you can navigate to the photo on your computer and add a text caption for each photo. (You could upload six photos at a time but probably just one or two would be sufficient ;-). When you finish with that process, click the "Upload" button at the bottom and your work is done. Voila! Now, isn't that simple? However, if it is still too difficult: since you are in Japan, I am sure that there are computer geeks aplenty around who could help you! ;-)) Metta, James 30605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Chris, Victor and All Thanks for posting the text relating to restraint by knowledge and restraint by energy. Meanwhile, here is something further on restraint of sense faculties. In the section dealing with the different ways that virtue can be classified, there is a fourfold classification as 'Patimokkha [monks' rules] restraint, of restraint of sense faculties, of purification of livelihood, and that concerning requisites', and on 'restraint of sense faculties' there is this passage from MN 27 (Simile of the Elephant's Footprint (Shorter)): <> This is similar to the DN passage being discussed. I have pasted below the Visuddhi-Magga explanation on this passage. Of particular interest I think are the following: 'He enters upon the way of its restraint': [the meaning is] he enters upon the way of *closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness*. It is the same one of whom it is said 'he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty'. and: But when virtue, etc., [J: i.e., virtue, mindfulness, etc, the opposites of unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or impatience or idleness] has arisen in it, then the door too is guarded I think this confirms that guarding the sense doors is one of the functions performed by mindfulness whenever it arises. Jon Vism I, 42 - 59 ****************************** 42. 17. In the fourth tetrad: (a) ...is 'virtue of Patimokkha restraint'. (b) That described thus: 'On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him; he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. On hearing a sound ..." (M.i,180), is ' virtue of restraint of the sense faculties'. 56. As to the words 'through which', etc., the meaning is: by reason of which, because of which non-restraint of the eye faculty, 'if he', if that person, 'left the eye faculty unguarded', remained with the eye door unclosed by the door-panel of mindfulness, these states of covetousness, etc., 'might invade', might pursue, might threaten, him. 'He enters upon the way of its restraint': he enters upon the way of closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness. It is the same one of whom it is said 'he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty'. 57. Herein, ... when a visible datum as object comes into the eye’s focus, ... there is non-restraint if unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or impatience or idleness arises at the moment of impulsion. When this happens, it is called ‘non-restraint of the eye faculty’. [22] 58. Why is that? Because when this happens, the door is not guarded ... But when virtue, etc., [J: i.e., virtue, mindfulness, etc, the opposites of unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or impatience or idleness] has arisen in it, then the door too is guarded and so also are the [preceding moments in the same sense door process]. Like what? Just as when the city gates are secured, although inside the city the houses, etc., are not secured, yet all property inside the city is well guarded, well protected, since when the city gates are shut there is no ingress for robbers, so too, when virtue, etc., have arisen in impulsion, the door too is guarded and so also are the life-continuum and the consciousness of the cognitive series beginning with adverting. Thus although it actually arises at the moment of impulsion, it is nevertheless called ‘restraint in the eye faculty’. 59. So also as regards the phrases 'on hearing a sound with the ear' and so on. So it is this virtue, which in brief has the characteristic of avoiding apprehension of signs entailing defilement with respect to visible objects, etc., that should be understood as 'virtue of restraint of faculties'. ****************************** --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Michael, Jon and all, > > Vis. 18 goes on to say: > "'Restraint by knowledge' is this: > "The currents in the world that flow, Ajita," said the Blessed One, > '"Are stemmed by means of mindfulness; > '"Restraint of currents I proclaim, > '"By understanding they are damned"' (Sn. 1035) > and use of requisites is here combined with this. But what is > called 'restraint by patience' is that given in the way beginning > 'He > is one who bears cold and heat' (M.i,10). > And what is called 'restraint by energy' is that given in the way > beginning 'He does not endure a thought of sense-desires 'when it > arises' (M.i,11); purification of livelihood is here combined with > this. So this five-fold restraint, and the abstinence, in clansmen > > who dread evil, from any chance of transgression met with, should > all > be understood to be 'virtue as restraint'". 30606 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Thanks Manu Wadhwani wrote:Dear Ajhan: I am sorry to hear about your infection. I hope the operation goes well. May you recover and get back to your practice soon. Metta Manu Wadhwani ----- Original Message ----- > Dear Suan, I was at the National > > Capital Private Hospital. Tonight at 6.30 I am going to see my surgeon to fix the next operation to remove the kidney stones. Metta Ajhan Jose > MY Dear Friends, Thank you to all of you for your good wishes. Today at 12.30 I am being admitted at The National Capital Private Hospital for my kidney operation. I will be back home Friday Night. Metta. Ajahn Jose 30607 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/25/2004 8:51:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S:Dreams occur during lighter sleep when there are series of mind-door > cittas (consciousness) interrupting the bhavanga cittas. Sanna > (perception/marking) is another universal cetasika like jivitindriya which > arises with every citta, including the bhavangas and all sense door and > mind door cittas. During dreaming, it ‘marks’ the concepts > experienced > through the mind. ============================ Sarah, no doubt sa~n~na marks pa~n~natti (like people, trees, and rough-textured walls) arising while dreaming, but I do not believe that only pa~n~natti arise during dreaming. It is my experience that rupas, including sights, sounds, tastes, smells, textures, hardness, warmth, cold, etc, do arise (of course through the mind door) while dreaming, and rupas also arise during jhanas. They are private experiences, but their nature is still rupic. [If you had a materialistic bent, Sarah, I would ask you to think about what you would be experiencing if your nervous system were hooked up to the master computer of "the matrix" while reclining in your pod!] Namas can *only* be experienced through the mind door, but rupas can be experienced through physical sense doors and also through the mind door. In some jhanas, brilliant light is visible. Believe me, it is a dramatic experience that is unquestionably visual, but comes only through the mind door, since the eyes are closed. I suspect that the reason you don't care for the idea of rupas being experienced while dreaming is that you think "real" rupas are "things out there", independent of experience, which, somehow, consciousness "in here" can make contact with. But I think this becomes problematical in the dream state. When dreaming, we DO experince sights and sounds, for example, that are no different from waking sights and sounds, especially in a lucid dream. If these are to be considered pa~n~natti, then there is no basis for not also thinking that the sights and sounds of waking consciousness are also pa~n~natti, which leaves nothing as "actual"! With dreamy metta, Howard 30608 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard IMHO Pannatti was used in the sense that these rupic experience are just pure memories and not actual occurences. In the suttas, there is always the mentioned of eye and form then eye conscioness arise. There is no form or eye in dreaming, so any visible rupa that experience is caused by memory conditioned by latency. When you mention of the light in jhanas, that is not rupa, which is likely purification of the mind, esulting a whitness being experience (is a mind door) hence not to be confused with the visible object experience through the sense door. Ken O 30609 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/25/04 9:27:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > IMHO Pannatti was used in the sense that these rupic experience are > just pure memories and not actual occurences. In the suttas, there > is always the mentioned of eye and form then eye conscioness arise. > There is no form or eye in dreaming, so any visible rupa that > experience is caused by memory conditioned by latency. > > When you mention of the light in jhanas, that is not rupa, which is > likely purification of the mind, esulting a whitness being experience > (is a mind door) hence not to be confused with the visible object > experience through the sense door. > > > Ken O > > ========================== There's no question that the content of dreams is the result of considerable mental processing, specifically sankharic processing that works upon stored, subliminal memories. I certainly agree with that. But the resulting experiences are not of the form of memories or concepts. The dream experiences of sights, sounds, tastes, and textures are of just the same sort as when awake, and are novel creations, not just rehashes. The end products of the mental processing are mind-produced rupas. (Isn't mind-produced rupa a category of rupa according to Abhidhamma?) The same sort of distinctions made between namas, rupas, and pa~n~natti that pertain to waking states also pertain to dream states. The main experiential difference between dream states and waking states is that waking states are more stable and predictable, and they are often intersubjective, whereas dream states are (almost always) private. BTW, the jhanic light I experienced once was not a whiteness - it was, as I experienced it, a brilliant, golden luminescence that extended throughout an infinite spatial panorama, and during the experiencing of it there also was a transporting bliss that is incomparable to any I ever experienced before or since. Thus there was emotive content (nama) and visual content (rupa). Both of these were directly experienced, and neither was pa~n~natti. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30610 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Nina, and all. I kicked myself last evening for having forgotten to thank Nina for taking the time to respond to my post. And I'd like to thank you all for the welcome you have given this beginner. (I insist on my right to use that word!;) There is no coddling here, but there is no patronizing either. I feel so deeply grateful for having come across this group. I am now digging into the useful posts file, trying to find answers about how I can harmonize my traditional application of Right Effort with the teaching of the Abhidhamma. I'll now return to lurking mode for a month (until April 1) to do the reading I need to do. It might seem odd to make such a declaration, but I know that I have trouble controling my hunger for sending posts to discussion groups, and there is so much reading I need to do. If I declare a month of abstinence from posting, I will be too embrassed to break it. It's quite comical being me! I will be following your discussions with keen interest. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Philip, > op 24-02-2004 15:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is > > we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa > > and nama in the moment. > N: I appreciate your interest, but this is not my idea at all! In that case > there can easily be a self who wants to do something, even something > constructive. It depends on the citta whether it reflects on realities or > not, and this is conditioned by listening. There is no need to stop what one > is doing. We should not expect direct awareness to arise at different > moments of the day, it will arise when there are conditions for it. It is > best not even to think of sati. The most important is right understanding > and that has to begin at the level of intellectual understanding. That is a > foundation that can condition later on direct understanding. Not us who can > stop and check *our awareness*. > Ph: I have to admit, how people will love and admire me for > it. I do, I'm afraid. Fortunately I'm aware of it and am able to laugh at it > now. > N: I like this part, very sincere. We have to develop the perfection of > truthfulness, being honest as to oneself also. Knowing that what we take for > awareness is still thinking. I laugh too at such things. I told my husband > Lodewijk, that I was praised on dsg and that I had immediately conceit. He > beat his breast and cried out loudly: conceit, conceit! We are really joking > about it, it helps in a way to take distance. Next day there is blame for > sure. These are merely very short moments conditioned by kamma. But instead > of pinpointing all such things we can learn characteristics of realities > when they appear, very gradually, as A. Sujin says time and again. > Ph: Being aware, in a flash, of Khandas, to the extent that I am able to > now. > N: I used to take thinking (even in a flash) for awareness, but I was cured > of that after discussions in the train in India with A. Sujin, the late Ven. > Dhammadharo, Jon and others. A. Sujin said, developed a lot of awareness and understanding, but this is not so.> I do > not find this discouraging. It is true, and truthfulness can only bring us > good. What is the use of deluding ourselves. And also now, it is difficult > to know when there is thinking of realities and when awareness. But I tend > to think less of sati. Understanding is the goal and this leads to > detachment. First detachment from the idea of self. > Nice talking to you, > Nina. 30611 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard What believe to have been seen by dreams is actually a mental construction of our latency (that is my guess). It is like when we imagine and during such imagination these sense which infact is only our mental fabrications, there is no rupa involved not even mental rupas since sense consciounes is not conditioned to arise. Mental/subtle rupas will only arise only after there is a sense process condition to arise. I do not know much about jhanas. When you experience a golden light, it got nothing to do with sensory inputs as sensory inputs need rupas and senses to be activated. That experience could be purely mental. Just like in a immaterial realm there is mental construction of a "place of dwelling". Maybe that is why the experience is bliss beyong emotive content as it does not need a sensory input (that is my guess) to condition a feeling. Ken O 30612 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Skillfulness in absorption (samadhi) Chapter XIII Jhanasamyutta, SN 34 Connected Discourses in Meditation From the Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publishing, Boston, 2000 with corrections by Jeff Brooks, 02/25/04 1 Attainment in relation to Absorption (samadhi) At Savati, "Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of meditators, what four?..." "Therein, bhikkhus, the meditator who is skilled both in concentration regarding absorption and in attainment regarding absorption is the chief, the best the foremost, the highest, the most excellent of these four kinds of meditators." Skillfulness in absorption (samadhi) is referred to in this sutta in the context of "maintenance, emergence, pliancy, skill in the object of concentration, range, resolution, thoroughness, persistence, suitability." Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Jhana Support Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ 30613 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 2/25/2004 8:51:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > S:Dreams occur during lighter sleep when there are series of mind- door > > cittas (consciousness) interrupting the bhavanga cittas. Sanna > > (perception/marking) is another universal cetasika like jivitindriya which > > arises with every citta, including the bhavangas and all sense door and > > mind door cittas. During dreaming, it `marks' the concepts > > experienced > > through the mind. > ============================ > Sarah, no doubt sa~n~na marks pa~n~natti (like people, trees, and rough-textured walls) arising while dreaming, but I do not believe that only pa~n~natti arise during dreaming. It is my experience that rupas, including sights, sounds, tastes, smells, textures, hardness, warmth, cold, etc, do arise (of course through the mind door) while dreaming, and rupas also arise during jhanas. They are private experiences, but their nature is still rupic. [If you had a materialistic bent, Sarah, I would ask you to think about what you would be experiencing if your nervous system were hooked up to the master computer of "the matrix" while reclining in your pod!] Namas can *only* be experienced through the mind door, but rupas can be experienced through physical sense doors and also through the mind door. In some jhanas, brilliant light is visible. Believe me, it is a dramatic experience that is unquestionably visual, but comes only through the mind door, since the eyes are closed. > I suspect that the reason you don't care for the idea of rupas being experienced while dreaming is that you think "real" rupas are "things out there", independent of experience, which, somehow, consciousness "in here" can make contact with. But I think this becomes problematical in the dream state. When dreaming, we DO experince sights and sounds, for example, that are no different from waking sights and sounds, especially in a lucid dream. If these are to be considered pa~n~natti, then there is no basis for not also thinking that the sights and sounds of waking consciousness are also pa~n~natti, which leaves nothing as "actual"! > > With dreamy metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Thank you for this well-articulated post. I 100% agree with you. I stopped discussing the subject of dreaming because I don't care for other people to tell me that they know what I experience (awake or dreaming) more than I do—and then to quote Buddhist texts only slightly related to the subject in order to draw conclusions that support their viewpoint (i.e. Sarah). May you pick up where I left off and fight the infidels valiantly!! (Oops, Icaro is rubbing off I think! ;-) ;-). Metta, James Ps. I have been experiencing the light that you describe, and the Buddhist texts describe, for the first time since beginning jhana meditation. It isn't what I thought it would be. I thought it would be like a yellowish light, like the sun, but it is actually a pure, white light, like staring into a snow bank on a sunny day or entering a bright, white room where light reflects off all the walls and the ceiling and floor. Is this also comparable to what you experience? 30614 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:27pm Subject: Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard, Howard: BTW, the jhanic light I experienced once was not a whiteness - it was, as I experienced it, a brilliant, golden luminescence that extended throughout an infinite spatial panorama, and during the experiencing of it there also was a transporting bliss that is incomparable to any I ever experienced before or since. Thus there was emotive content (nama) and visual content (rupa). James: Oh, I wrote that other post asking about this before I read this post. I guess what we experience is different. My light isn't yellow, it is definitely pure white, but it does extend in all directions. The feeling that accompanies it is a lightness and expansiveness, not really bliss. It is more like a cool light. I am also finding that I am developing the tender stages of psychic abilities like distance viewing. Hmm…anyway, I will keep practicing and see what happens. Have you ever developed psychic abilities as a result of your practice? Metta, James 30615 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital Dear Sarah & Christine: Thank you for your warm email. Words elude me when I start writing so I usually take the easy way out. If I manage to survive on this list long enough maybe some of your tact and charm in writing will rub on to me ;-)) A few years ago some expatriates started an hour of sitting meditation every Saturday at a local temple. That grew into a weekend of Dhamma Talks by a senior monk, Achaan Xaly. Since most who attended are westerners with no prior exposure to Buddhism, talks cover very basic topics like instructions on sitting and walking meditation, mindfulness of breath, introduction to Nama- Rupa etc. 5 such weekends have been held so far. I have done the translation on 4. Achaan Xaly is the foremost authority on Abhidhamma in Laos and is responsible for teaching Abhidhamma to the monks nationwide. Due to time constraints, the weekend talks have not been held for the last 2 years. Maybe we can hold one this year. With Metta, Manu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital > Hi Manu (& Christine), > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Manu :-) > > > > Lovely to see you 'in print'! > > I hope you have had a look at the DSG meetings photo album pictures > > of us all in Bangkok last month > ..... > Yes, I'm glad to see you in print too! Why not share a few of your > impressions from that same day of discussion and lunch in Bangkok??? We'd > all be glad to hear. > > I should have mentioned in my other letter (I was just in the door and not > even unpacked when I wrote it by way of excuses;-)), that Manu came down > from Laos with exellent listening skills and the occasional question too. > At lunch, Manu, you were asking about the kinds of dukkha and I forget > what else. You may like to read more detailed posts on dukkha under that > heading in U.P. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > You mentioned that every week you translate Abhidhamma talks from Lao to > English at a temple in Vientiane, Laos. Can you tell us more about these > and the topics being discussed? What's the name of the bhikkhu who gives > the talks? > > Finally, you're now off the hook photo-wise, but like James, I'd like to > encourage any newcomers and other shy oldcomers to add a photo to the > member album as an act of dana for us all here: > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 30616 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/25/04 11:14:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > What believe to have been seen by dreams is actually a mental > construction of our latency (that is my guess). It is like when we > imagine and during such imagination these sense which infact is only > our mental fabrications, there is no rupa involved not even mental > rupas since sense consciounes is not conditioned to arise. > Mental/subtle rupas will only arise only after there is a sense > process condition to arise. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know, that is the "Abhidhamma tale". But just for a moment let's look at the "biologist's tale", or, more specifically the "neurologist's tale": In the usual conventional "scientist's story", when we see, a variety of neurological events occur which culminate in certain things happening in the brain that are subjectively experienced as visual object. If the same final neurological events occur, the same brain events, then the same visual experiences occur. (That's what I was pointing to when I mentioned "The Matrix" in my post to Sarah.) There are all sorts of conventional stories available to us. The biological stories are very successful as regards predictive adequacy. I'm not saying that those stories are "true". My point is merely to indicate that sights constitute a particular sort of experience, and that experience always and ultimately occurs in the mind, and it is the nature of the experience that makes it rupic, not the story we associate with it. ------------------------------------------------------ > > I do not know much about jhanas. When you experience a golden light, > it got nothing to do with sensory inputs as sensory inputs need rupas > and senses to be activated. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, when you talk about sensory inputs, you are taking the physicist's or biologist's perspective. But if one is going to do so, one should be consistent. Visual experience from the biophysical perspective comes from specific brain function, and whatever the initial links in the causal chain were, if the final links are the same (i.e. the same brain events occur), then the experiences will be the same. Now, it happens that my perspective is not that of an existing "external world". I believe that the "external world" is only a bunch of stories - useful, especially for predicting experience, but stories nonetheless. What I consider "real" is experience, and not a presumed but unobserved external something-or-other underlying experience. So, from my perspective, experience is the whole story - and hardness experienced under any circumstances, whether one is awake or asleep, is still hardness. --------------------------------------------------------- That experience could be purely mental. > > Just like in a immaterial realm there is mental construction of a > "place of dwelling". Maybe that is why the experience is bliss > beyong emotive content as it does not need a sensory input (that is > my guess) to condition a feeling. > > > Ken O > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30617 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi, James - In a message dated 2/26/04 12:15:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Ps. I have been experiencing the light that you describe, and the > Buddhist texts describe, for the first time since beginning jhana > meditation. It isn't what I thought it would be. I thought it would > be like a yellowish light, like the sun, but it is actually a pure, > white light, like staring into a snow bank on a sunny day or entering > a bright, white room where light reflects off all the walls and the > ceiling and floor. Is this also comparable to what you > experience? > ============================ As you will see from a post that I sent off a minute ago to Ken, our experiences were not identical. The light I experienced *was* golden. but I think that is a minor matter. There are bound to be individual differences. (Your light is white and mine only yellow, so you must be more pure! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30618 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi, James - In a message dated 2/26/04 12:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Howard: BTW, the jhanic light I experienced once was not a whiteness - > it was, as I experienced it, a brilliant, golden luminescence that > extended throughout an infinite spatial panorama, and during the > experiencing of it there also was a transporting bliss that is > incomparable to any I ever experienced before or since. Thus there > was emotive content (nama) and visual content (rupa). > > James: Oh, I wrote that other post asking about this before I read > this post. I guess what we experience is different. My light isn't > yellow, it is definitely pure white, but it does extend in all > directions. The feeling that accompanies it is a lightness and > expansiveness, not really bliss. It is more like a cool light. I am > also finding that I am developing the tender stages of psychic > abilities like distance viewing. Hmm…anyway, I will keep practicing > and see what happens. Have you ever developed psychic abilities as a > result of your practice? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I haven't. Oh, there have been some things ... but nothing really significant or consistent - so, really, no. My wife, who doesn't meditate, though she used to do TM, really does have some abilities in that direction it happens. --------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30619 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis, note 27, no 2 Dear Nina (& Larry), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Note 27, no 2: > "The Path of Purification" Ch. XIV, 61 > [concerning bodily intimation] ... S:I just want to say that I find your ‘walk-throughs’ of the text extremely useful and it was a good idea to post more information on bodily intimation before starting this section. Please do the same for any others. I know it’s a lot of work and when the list is busy, many people will skip over the intricate details, but as questions arise, they’ll come back to it;-) I usually print out these sections to read when I have time to really consider them, so tend to be a little behind. ..... > Note 27 no 2': > Text: 'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason > for the apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of > intention in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? <...> > N: The seventh javama-citta originates the intimation expressing a > meaning, > but, the previous six javana-cittas causing the strengthening and > supporting > of the body are the decisive support for the seventh one that originates > intimation. > > Text: The stiffening, upholding, and movement are due to the > air element associated with the alteration belonging to the intimation, > is what is said. > > N: The alteration: the unique change (vikaara) in the great Elements is > bodily intimation. .... S:We have an idea of making an intention and then moving he body, but in reality there are many conditions and factors involved in order for the elements to be changed in such a way as to bring about bodily intimation. Why do our intentions sometimes not result in movements such as when we’re sick or coming out of a come or anaesthesia? There are not the decisive support conditions (such as in the earlier javana cittas) which enable the seventh citta to condition those bodily intimation rupas. We learn how very brief, complex and conditioned the namas and rupas involved are and how many cittas accompanied by cetana (intention) must be involved for any movement to take place. We also learn more about the great wisdom of the Buddha who conveyed all these fine details. It might seem, therefore, that this is only theoretical or that awareness can’t take place. But that’s just thinking about it. Even whilst considering the anatta-ness of dhammas or the subtle nature of bodily intimation there may be wise attention. Furthermore, whilst considering, there are so many other realities - seeing, hearing, annoyance perhaps, confusion and so on. Awareness can slip in anytime and be aware of any reality, again by conditions. A moment of awareness of any nama or rupa is more precious than merely thinking about any detail. ..... > N: There are only dhammas rolling on because of conditions, they are > uninterested, they do not know anything. They are very momentary > (kha.nika), > they fall away immediately. It just seems that a coloured surface, that > hands are moving, but in reality there are different dhammas arising in > adjacent locations from moment to moment. ..... S:And this is the aim of considering any part of the teachings which are all in conformity: the understanding of the nature of the ‘uninterested’ dhammas rolling on. People may think that by understanding, not doing anything special, that our worlds will collapse. As you’ve said, ‘let them crumble away’;-) The understanding of dhammas as anatta leads to taking refuge in the Triple Gem, not the reverse. Another comment you gave, Nina. concerned the ‘receiver of intimation’. The person watching us gesticulate or giving some indication, may or may not understand the meaning. “But, the rupa originated from the seventh javanacitta of the intimator occurred, even if the other person or animal did not understand what the meaning was.” It’s obvious when we put it like this. We all get misunderstood or ignored all the time. It’s just the same when we have metta or any other state. The ‘meaning’ or kind of citta may or may not be understood and the other person or animal may or may not be affected in anyway. Larry, thank you for typing out all the notes. I really appreciate looking at it carefully in this way. If people don’t respond on these threads, I’m sure it’s because it is such a difficult area which most of us can only consider at the right time. We never know when it’ll be and if it’s never the right time, that’s OK too;-). Please keep up your fine questions and comments regardless. Even though I tend to spread myself very thin by poking my nose into every study corner and therefore don’t often respond here, please know I greatly appreciate yours and Nina’s work. Nina, I’m also greatly looking forward to your detailed account of discussions and dhamma in Thailand. I just relaxed on return, knowing that you’d be giving a very comprehensive account;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, I’m also greatly looking forward to your detailed account of discussions and dhamma in Thailand. I just relaxed on return, knowing that you’d be giving a very comprehensive account;-) ======= 30620 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:52pm Subject: fulfilling promise To the Faceless Crowd: What looks like a picture of me intending to amputate some limbs while the pear tree is just starting to blossom is really just a reminder that there is no right time to do things other than when they happen. May your tools be sharp, connie 30621 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, --- Philip wrote: > > I feel so deeply grateful for having come across this group. I am > now digging into the useful posts file, trying to find answers about > how I can harmonize my traditional application of Right Effort with > the teaching of the Abhidhamma. ..... S:Philip, your posts have been like a gentle breeze blowing by;-) I know some of us are greatly encouraged by your keen interest and support. .... > I'll now return to lurking mode for a month (until April 1) to do > the reading I need to do. .... S:That’s Nina’s birthday, so you can return with a long list of Abhidhamma questions for her and make her day;-) .... >It might seem odd to make such a > declaration, but I know that I have trouble controling my hunger for > sending posts to discussion groups, and there is so much reading I > need to do. If I declare a month of abstinence from posting, I will > be too embrassed to break it. It's quite comical being me! > I will be following your discussions with keen interest. .... S:LOL We never know by conditions....no need to be embarrassed and heap up unnecessary kilesa (defilements). Declarations of abstinence on DSG should all be broken imho;-)Anyway, I’ll look forward to your posts whenever it is, Philip. I particularly liked your insisting that aspects of your ‘interest in dhamma is an unhealthy attachment’. Yes! We need to know realities just as they are. When I write a letter, read a dhamma text or sit in a discussion, there is also plenty of attachment arising in between a few noble qualities and sense door experiences. Even now, I’m smiling as I write with passing attachment;-)[I think, Ken O, it’s very easy to mistake unwholesome chanda for wholesome chanda....More and more subtle attachments can and should be known]. Thank you for getting back on the ‘thousand candles can be lighted from a single candle’. We can understand it and use it as a reminder however we like. By understanding namas and rupas now, as Ken O always says, the meanings in the suttas become more apparent and life runs simply and naturally as our wrong views are slowly discarded. Through understanding, we’ll then know how to help others appropriately, according to possibilites and our inclinations and tendencies. I appreciate your kind intentions in this regard. As we also learn more about conditions and the meaning of right effort and so on, we can understand that we can only try our best to help colleagues, friends or family, but no one can control the conditions for their wholesome states anymore than for ours. Wholesome states are as anatta as any other realities. Thank you again, Philip for all your friendly, kind comments. No need to feel embarrassed if you break your vow to post;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll look forward to the pic too. For dinosaurs like me who don’t have photos on their computers, just take a shot (passport or driving licence pic is OK) to a photo shop and ask to have it put on a disc. If that’s too complicated, mail it to James or someone with techno skills;-) ====================================== 30622 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is Dhamma subjective? Hi Eznir (and Howard), You wrote: > And how does one construct this path? Through intentions. Because > intending is what one normally does every moment of the day. How does > he intend? Through body, speech and mind; the very same 5-holding- > aggregates that he is burdened with. Now that he knows "this"(5- > holding-aggregates) is suffering, he uses the very same aggregates to > get out of. Can you elaborate further on the above? Assuming that you have read my recent exchange with Howard regarding the role of "volition"; could you point out to me, what I am overlooking? Metta, Sukin. 30623 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Have you ever worked out by running on a threadmill? <...> > To do aerobic exercise, one exercise one's body. .... S:I didn’t forget the treadmill....I agree it’s a good kind of exercise for those who don’t have knee problems like me. Now if you tell me your aim is to exercise your body and to get fit, I’d say ‘go ahead’ as I do to my friends at the gym. However, if you were to tell me your purpose was to realize the 4NT, I’d say ‘wait a moment. Show me the connection’. .... >To meditate, one > develops and cultivates one's mind. Running on the threadmill might > look silly or simply wrong to some, but there is a purpose for doing > so. Just like there is a purpose for meditation: to develop and > cultivate one's mind. .... S: Here, I assume you’re referring to ‘formal’ or ‘sitting’ meditation. Again, if you were to tell me that your purpose was to have a quiet break in the day, to develop your breathing practice for health benefits or yoga, or to give the keyboard a rest, I’d say ‘go ahead’ as I do to my yoga friends. However, when you say that the purpose is to develop and cultivate your mind, again, I’d say ‘wait a moment. Show me the connection’. How can 'any meditation technique' result in wisdom and knowledge of the 4NT, just because this is one’s aim? .... >And the cessation of dukkha is impossible > without developing and cultivating one's mind in terms of right > effort (samma vayamo), right awareness (samma sati), and right > concentration (samma samadhi). .... S:The point being made by others in your study corner, however, is that these eightfold path factors are conditioned, not by a self wishing or intending, but by the careful considering and understanding of the teaching contained in the entire Dhamma-Vinaya (Tipitaka). .... > Now, it is one's choice to meditate or not. If one chose not to > meditate, no one else could force him or her to do otherwise. > Nevertheless, whether one chose meditate or not, one could still > appreciate others who actually did. That appreciation, as I see it, > is mudita. .... S: If your first friend told you he/she intended to realize the 4NT by running faster and faster on the treadmill and you understood this way of thinking to be quite erroneous, would it be mudita or any kind of appreciation to encourage him/her in this view? You quoted from this sutta, AN VII, 67 Mental Development (1) “Monks, although a monk who does not apply himself to the meditative development of his mind may wish, "Oh, that my mind might be freed from the taints by non-clinging!", yet his mind will not be freed. For what reason? "Because he has not developed his mind," one has to say. Not developed it in what? In the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right kinds of striving, the four bases of success, the five spiritual faculties, the five spiritual powers, the seven factors of enlightenment and the Noble Eightfold Path.” In other words, it is not the wishing like the hen for the chicks to hatch that will lead to the developed mind, but the development of satipatthana.* Actually, it doesn’t matter at all what I think, Victor. We’re all considering the texts together and acting or not acting according to our very limited understanding. I certainly greatly appreciate and have lots of mudita with regard to your own careful reflections, reading of suttas and discussion in the new DSC;-) .... > Please drop by the new Dhamma study corner - Recognizing the Dhamma > sometime. I look forward to your participation. .... S:Thanks I will. Please don’t mind if I’m always a little behind. Let me leave you with this quote about the Nine Factors: http://www.abhidhamma.org/small%20learning.htm “Brethren, who is the well-versed person that leads a virtuous life ? Here (in the world) -a certain one who is well-versed (in the Norm consisting of the said Nine Factors) and, knowing the primary and interpreted meaning of the text, governs his life thereby. Brethren, this is the person who is well-versed and leads a virtuous life. Brethren, these four persons are indeed to be seen existing in the world.' He who is ignorant and careless in his ways- Men blame him for his ways and lack of learning too. He who is ignorant, but careful in his ways- Men praise his character, the' knowledge is not his He who is deep in lore, but careless in his ways- Men blame his character; his knowledge goes for naught. He who is deep in, lore and careful in his Men praise his character and learning deep as well.” Metta, Sarah ==== * In Asia, we’re all looking at a lot of pictures of hens and baby chicks these days on the neww. This is an extract from an earlier post about the chickens metaphor in the SN version. (James, I liked your post to Nina a lot on the ship;-)). ..... Nina: >The eggshell the chickens have to break through is ignorance. I looked up the Pali Co and just glanced through it. Most interesting: the bhikkhu lacks in vipassana. The right conditions are climate, food, people, listening to dhamma, dhamma savana sappaaya.m. Because of his former gradual training his panna ripens and he can attain arahatship in one session. Sarah > more commentary notes as given by B.Bodhi: note 212 “Spk elaborates on the comparison of the bhikkhu’s enlightenment to the hatching of the chicks: the hen’s preparatory work is like the bhikkhu’s devotion to development. The nonrotting of the eggs is like the bhikkhu’s devotion to development. The nonrotting of the eggs is like th bhikkhu’s not falling away from insight knowledge; the drying up of the moisture in the eggs is like the drying up of attachment to the three realms of existence; the thinning of the egg shells is like th thinning of ignorance; the maturation of the chicks is like the maturation of insight knowledge. The time when the chicks break the shells and merge safely is like the time when the bhikkhu breaks the shell of ignorance and attains arahantship. And as the chicks go about adorning the village field, so the great arahant enters into fruition attainment which takes Nibana as its object, and thus adorns his monastery.” ========================================== 30624 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > to passion, not to dispassion; > to being fettered, not to being unfettered; > to accumulating, not to shedding; > to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; > to discontent, not to contentment; > to entanglement, not to seclusion; > to laziness, not to aroused persistence; > to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': > You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the > Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' .... S: In other words, these states lead to continuation of the cycle. Accumulating (accayaaya). Mahapajapati Gotami attained arahantship on hearing this sutta. She understood the deep meaning. Her lifestyle as a nun didn’t change, but her wisdom fully penetrated the full meaning of ‘being fettered’, ‘entanglement’, ‘burdensome’ and so on. These all refer to mental states. .... > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > to dispassion, not to passion; <...> > > > So it is based on these eight pairs of principles or criteria, one > can examine for him or herself whether something is the Dhamma, the > Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. As I see it, 'these qualities' > in the passage has much broader meaning than 'what is being said.' .... S: I agree. We could discuss each one, looking at the Pali term. We’ve already discussed the meaning of seclusion (pavivekaaya) before. .... > They include one's actions and conduct, skillful or unskillful. > They also include the principle in accordance or not in accordance > to the principle of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. .... S:As on the discussion of guarding the senses, I see them as referring to mental states which of course may lead to actions and conduct. In Mahapajapati Gotami’s case, she understand and eradicated the most subtle attachments. .... > The objective for this study is twofold: > > First, to know these eight principles. > > Secondly, to apply these eight principles. .... S:How are they known and applied? Again,when you mention ‘apply’, it sounds like something to be done rather than understood. .... > The study guide provides guidance and structure in this study with > passages from the discourses. We can discuss and verify these > principles in relation to the discourse passages. .... S:Good. Should be then consider these ‘principles’ further, one at a time? .... >We can also come > up with our own examples (such as thoughts about Mel Gibson in > shower) such that we can apply these eight principles. If you like, > we can also examine some doctrines in the Abhidhamma Pitaka with > respect to the eight principles. .... S:The single most important point is to understand these qualities as anatta, arising or not arising according to conditions as others have said. I don’t understand Mahapajapati to have ‘applied’ anything, but to have understood the true meaning of the words. Metta, Sarah ====== 30625 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, S:I think we’re fully agreed on all the initial points;-), so I’m skipping to the end. Thank you for answering my questions here: --- htootintnaing wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I can sense you and your questions. It doesn't sound impolite > or disrespectful. > > Q1. The purpose of practising breathing meditation > Q2. The special achievement > Q3. Tools and Map > Q4. Choices > > A1. Ultimate aim is practising mahasatipatthana to attain Arahatta > Magga Nana. At the earlier part the aim is to focus. This can be > breathing meditation at nostril or at abdomen. Just for initial focus. .... S: Why is the earlier aim to focus? We agreed there are only paramattha dhammas, whether there is any knowledge of them or not. Why is the earlier aim not to hear, consider and begin to understand them as for the later part? .... > A2. As initiated and maintained, no more focus is needed. Just to see > real phenomena with wisdom. So the meditator achieves relaxed and > flexible method in meditation. .... S:When I read about a special focus and then no focus or as others sometimes write, using a self to understand non-self, it makes no sense to me. There is no self to focus in the first place. If there is a special focus or concentration, it seems like an idea of catching or slowing down realities again or trying to control the conditions. .... > A3. Necessary knowledge. I think necessary. But not in actual sense > if can practise properly. That knowledge is tool. You have been > constantly poking through my messages. I am not disturbed. .... S: Excellent! This is a real ‘poking’ group, all in good friendship;-) .... >But what I > want to say here is that you have a good knowledge that there is no > Atta. That is tool. So you have tool. More tools are method of > practice. Map is what shows landmarks. .... S:So we agree here that the theoretical right understanding is essential. If there is the idea of atta, there will be practise with the idea of atta. We can certainly agree this understanding is the tool and the map shows the landmarks. .... > A4. You can choooe what you like. This is in conventional term. If > there is no you, 'you' cannot choose. Some chose to become a > Sammasambuddha. Some to become Paccekabuddhas. Some Agga Savaka. Some > Mahasavaka. Some Etadagga. And so on. .... S:OK You explained this nicely before in terms of paramattha dhammas. I think we have to be careful when we say ‘some choose to become...’. It all depends on conditions. ..... > Htoo: There are 62 kinds of Micchaditthi. Wrong view is the worst. > > If someone kills another but he does not have wrong view, then he may > not suffer long as those with wrong view. .... S:Excellent! And all wrong views are based on self views, so this has to be understood and eradicated first. .... > May you feel ease and peace and practise mahasatipatthana and achieve > something right now. .... S:That’s it.....sati sampajanna now...no need to wait for a special time or special focus and wasting time not understanding the present realities arising and falling away as we speak. You mentioned in Sensing Dhammas (3) that ‘his concentrated mind stays for a while’ when really, I don’t believe any citta or cetasika stays at all, falling away as soon as it has arisen. Thank you for your other clarification in the other post which I understood. I was just being dense the first time, I think. You asked if I am ‘Mahayana’;-) Please let me know why you ask. I’m intrigued. Actually, I just read the Pali canon a little. I was brought up strictly as a Christian, but I became very interested in the Buddha’s teachings when I was about 20. My turn to ask a personal question:-) Where do you live, Htoo? (Just a continent or country if you don’t wish to say exactly). Also, I’d be very honoured if you’d share a photo in our album. If you need help, there are many willing hands to assist with this. Metta and appreciation again with your good responses to all the ‘poking’;-)I enjoy these discussions a lot - no need to quote or explain terms or texts;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 30626 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard > Howard: > Yes, I know, that is the "Abhidhamma tale". k: This is not just Abhidhamma tale, the suttas also said that. H: But just for a moment let's look at the "biologist's tale", or, more specifically the "neurologist's tale": In the usual conventional "scientist's story", when we see, a variety of neurological events occur which culminate in certain things happening in the brain that are subjectively experienced as visual object. If the same final > neurological events occur, the same brain events, then the same > visual experiences occur. (That's what I was pointing to when I mentioned "The Matrix" in my post to Sarah.) There are all sorts of conventional stories available to us. The biological stories are very successful as regards predictive adequacy. I'm not saying that those stories are "true". My point is merely to indicate that sights constitute a particular sort of experience, and that experience always and ultimately occurs in the mind, and it is the nature of the > experience that makes it rupic, not the story we associate with it. k: I remember is that sensory consciouness arise at the sense organs and not at the mind. What biologist seen at the mind is the mind door process that goes in tandem with a sense process. It was conditioned since beginnless in such a way to fool us that sense consciouness arise in the mind. Moreover, maybe I am not a biologist, I think it is nerve that understand information and transmit it to the brain of what it receive, which in turn the mind experience the so call information. So consciouness can arise on the nerve which can be found everywhere. This is my guess. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again, when you talk about sensory inputs, you are taking > the physicist's or biologist's perspective. But if one is going to do so, one should be consistent. Visual experience from the biophysical perspective comes from specific brain function, and whatever the initial links in the causal chain were, if the final links are the same (i.e. the same brain events occur), then the > experiences will be the same. k: As I earlier said, the mind is conditioned in this way, so it won't be surprising due to its conditioning, sensory inputs seem to arise which in fact is the mind memory at work and not the sense consciouness. That is why the sutta specifically said form and eye, eye consciouness arise. So without visible rupa or without eye, there will be no eye consciouness. What is seem to be "see" in the brain is IMHO pure memory that is conditioned to work in such a way. H: Now, it happens that my perspective is not that of an existing "external world". I believe that the "external world" is only a bunch of stories - useful, especially for predicting experience, but stories nonetheless. What I consider "real" is experience, and not a presumed but unobserved external something-or-other underlying experience. So, from my perspective, experience is the whole story - and hardness experienced under any circumstances, whether one is awake or asleep, is still hardness. K: External world can be also real, we cannot presume that the hardness we felt on solid matters are not real. The table may not be real but the hardness is. the world as we see heard or hear are just basically because of our ignorance that did not see the delusion created by the four great elements. But the four great elements are real and can be experienced. On the issue that unobserved experience is not real is not justifiable. Just like the immaterial planes are not observable or observable with any scientific equipment to human, that does not mean they do not exist. It is only observable with the divine eye which only can be attain through panna. In the same way, sensory consciouness or rupas cannot be directly experience does not mean they are not there, it is only panna that is not developed yet to experience them. Ken O 30627 From: Philip Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hello Sarah, and all. I hope you enjoyed my April Fool's joke. I am already back! P :> > I feel so deeply grateful for having come across this group. I am > > now digging into the useful posts file, trying to find answers about > > how I can harmonize my traditional application of Right Effort with > > the teaching of the Abhidhamma. P: Grateful is one way to put it. Feverish is another. I have been feeling devoted day in, day out to deepening my Buddhist practice but coming across the ideas in the Abhidhamma seem to have turned my enthusiasm into a kind of fever - I actually have come down with a cold, and a slight fever, as it happens. Obviously, a feverish interest in something is not healthy, or sustainable. I don't know quite what to do about it. Reading the chapter on defilements that Christine was kind enough to link me to made me realize that vowing NOT to post would be just as self-feeding as posting often, but with awareness. I guess everyone goes through this as some point in their practice. Zeal cranked up into a kind of frenzy of desire for dhamma. It's interesting that it didn't happen right at the beginning of my interest in Buddhism. That came about 15 years ago. I guess the conditions ripened, and here it is. Looking at the forms of clinging, I wondered if it is attavadupanada -clinging to the ego-idea. As I mentionned before, I am so attached to all my dhamma binders, and during the day often go and pick one up, and glance in it, and put it down, and pick up another one. Throughout the day, again and again. As I mentionned before, the last time I became this deeply absorbed in soemthing was when I started to study Kanji, and it could be the Pali language aspect of the abhidhamma is one of the things that has triggered my interest, which again would suggest ego at work. Does anyone have any advice about how to handle this craving? I am thinking about the Factors of Awakening, which contain both calming and stirring factors. Obviously I need to be cultivating equanimity and concentration now. That's another thing. My morning meditation has been disturbed by an overwhelming desire to hit the books. So the first thing to do is get back on the cushion, and maybe increase my sitting time for awhile. > S:Philip, your posts have been like a gentle breeze blowing by;-) I know > some of us are greatly encouraged by your keen interest and support. P: I hope everyone feels that way. Some people might feel it as hot wind. I can imagine that when a group has been together as long as this one has, there are stretches when the vitality seems to flag. If there's one person who feels the vitality of her or his practice in any way stirred up by my posts, I would be very happy. (snip) > .... > > If I declare a month of abstinence from posting, I will > > be too embrassed to break it. It's quite comical being me! P: Fortunately I wasn't. That's a good sign. It is comical. I make myself laugh sometimes. Being able to laugh at oneself might be a sign of letting go of rigid self-images. > > S: Declarations of abstinence on DSG should > all be broken imho;-) P: I agree, definitely. :) > > I particularly liked your insisting that aspects of your `interest in > dhamma is an unhealthy attachment?E Yes! We need to know realities just as > they are. When I write a letter, read a dhamma text or sit in a > discussion, there is also plenty of attachment arising in between a few > noble qualities and sense door experiences. Even now, I'm smiling as I > write with passing attachment;-)[I think, Ken O, it's very easy to mistake > unwholesome chanda for wholesome chanda....More and more subtle > attachments can and should be known]. P: Yes, I'm sure this is true. I mean, I'm sure many of us have our library of dhamma materials that we would run into a conflagration to try to rescue, don't we? There is something paradoxical about a way of practice that stresses direct experience but which almost always leads people to collect a lot of books, isn't there? > S: Thank you for getting back on the `thousand candles can be lighted from a > single candle?E We can understand it and use it as a reminder however we > like. By understanding namas and rupas now, as Ken O always says, the > meanings in the suttas become more apparent and life runs simply and > naturally as our wrong views are slowly discarded. Through understanding, > we'll then know how to help others appropriately, according to > possibilites and our inclinations and tendencies. I appreciate your kind > intentions in this regard. P: When I was reading in bed this afternoon, during my long and hard period of abstinence, I came across this from Nina's Parmis book, in the chapter on Dana : "We experience ourselves that even a small act of kindness from other can mean a great deal to us and thus, when there is an opportunity to do something for others, even something which seems insignificant, we should not overlook such an opportunity. Sarah reminded me of this fact time and time again by her words and example." I don't post that to butter you up (I assume that you are the Sarah in question) but because I am still very interested in the thing that happened the other day. How your taking a moment to ask me about my reading on the Paramis led to this burst of enthusiasm, and a huge window opening in my practice, and therefor my life. In Japanese there is a concept called "kotodama", which is literally "soul of the word" but figuratively means that a word can have incredible power to reach out and touch people (though this concept is also used by people who want to cast nasty spells) and this "how's you reading going?" incident drove the truth of "koto dama" home to me. And the candle analogy as well. (snip) > S: p.s I'll look forward to the pic too. For dinosaurs like me who don 't have > photos on their computers, just take a shot (passport or driving licence > pic is OK) to a photo shop and ask to have it put on a disc. If that 's too > complicated, mail it to James or someone with techno skills;-) P: I think I can figure it out. In the meantime, here's a picture from a publishing company that put out a children's picture book I wrote a few years ago. (terrible sales and mediocre reviews, but I like it.) http://www.annickpress.com/ai/coristine.html All right. Time to prepare tomorrow's lesson. The other thing about my dhamma frenzy is that it's biting into the time I should be spending on other things. Well, who's to say what I should be doing. Thanks again for your kind comments. Let's see if I can get my practice back in the middle way. Sorry if there are typos in this. My wife is calling and no time for a proof read. Metta, Philip 30628 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] fulfilling promise Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > To the Faceless Crowd: > What looks like a picture of me intending to amputate some limbs while > the pear tree is just starting to blossom is really just a reminder that > there is no right time to do things other than when they happen. > May your tools be sharp, > connie ..... ;-) a very nice picture too. Many thanks. The next lucky photo poster to the member album will be placed next to Connie in the pear tree blossom with her sharp tools. I think there are a few other half promises out there..... Metta, Sarah p.s Andy, I forget if we thanked you for posting yours so promptly without the usual nagging;-) ====== 30629 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard, Howard: The light I experienced *was* golden. but I think that is a minor matter. James: Yes, it is a very minor matter. I was just curious. The light doesn't mean anything anyway; I still stay focused on and around the breath when the light arises. Howard: There are bound to be individual differences. (Your light is white and mine only yellow, so you must be more pure! ;-)) James: HA! I don't think so!! ;-) My mind probably just has more modern, energy-efficient, florescent light bulbs installed! ;-)) Metta, James 30630 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi, Sarah (and Victor) - In a message dated 2/26/04 4:19:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Again, if you were to tell me that your purpose was to have a quiet break > in the day, to develop your breathing practice for health benefits or > yoga, or to give the keyboard a rest, I’d say ‘go ahead’ as I do to my > yoga friends. > > However, when you say that the purpose is to develop and cultivate your > mind, again, I’d say ‘wait a moment. Show me the connection’. How can 'any > meditation technique' result in wisdom and knowledge of the 4NT, just > because this is one’s aim? > ============================ In reply to this question, it's not the aim that does it, but the practice. The following is some of what the Buddha had to say about the usefulness of meditation. With metta, Howard ________________________________________________ The material follows: Jhana and insight hand-in-hand >       There's    no jhana >    for one with    no discernment, >                no discernment >    for one with    no jhana. >    But one with    both jhana >                & discernment: > he's on the verge >       of Unbinding. > >> -- Dhp 372 > _________________________________________ Purification depends on concentration > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first > jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the > infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the > dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations > depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." > >> -- AN IX.36 > ________________________________________ § 162. Skill in concentration. Suppose there was a mountain cow -- foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains -- and she were to think, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before, to eat grass I have never eaten before, to drink water I have never drunk before!' She would lift her hind hoof without having placed her front hoof firmly and [as a result] would not get to go in a direction she had never gone before, to eat grass she had never eaten before, or to drink water she had never drunk before. And as for the place where she was standing when th e thought occurred to her, 'What if I were to go where I have never been before... to drink water I have never drunk before,' she would not return there safely. Why is that? Because she is a foolish, inexperienced mountain cow, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains. In the same way, there are cases where a monk -- foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with his pasture, unskilled in... entering & remaining in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation -- doesn't stick with that theme, doesn't develop it, pursue it, or establish himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance.' He is not able... to enter & remain in the second jhana... The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the first jhana... He is not able... to enter & remain in the first jhana. This is called a monk who has slipped & fallen from both sides, like the mountain cow, foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains. But suppose there was a mountain cow -- wise, experienced, familiar with her pasture, skilled in roaming on rugged mountains -- and she were to think, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before, to eat grass I have never eaten before, to drink water I have never drunk before!' She would lift her hind hoof only after having placed her front hoof firmly and [as a result] would get to go in a direction she had never gone before... to drink water she had never drunk before. And as for the place where she was standing when the thought occurred to her, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before... to drink water I have never drunk before,' she would return there safely. Why is that? Because she is a wise, experienced mountain cow, familiar with her pasture, skilled in roaming on rugged mountains. ===> [Please note the conscious decision making and volition involved in the following] In the same way, there are some cases where a monk -- wise, experienced, familiar with his pasture, skilled in... entering & remaining in the first jhana... sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the second jhana...' Without jumping at the second jhana, he -- with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation -- enters & remains in the second jhana. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the third jhana'... Without jumping at the third jhana, he... enters & remains in the third jhana. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the fourth jhana'... Without jumping at the fourth jhana, he... enters & remains in the fourth jhana. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, "Infinite space," were to enter & remain in the dimension of the infinitude of space.' Without jumping at the dimension of the infinitude of space, he... enters & remains in dimension of the infinitude of space. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, thinking, "Infinite consciousness," were to enter & remain in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness.' Without jumping at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, he... enters & remains in dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. He st icks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, "There is nothing," were to enter & remain in the dimension of nothingness.' Without jumping at the dimension of nothingness, he... enters & remains in dimension of nothingness. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues, it & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, were to enter & remain in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' Without jumping at the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he... enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, were to enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling.' Without jumping at the cessation of perception & feeling, he... enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. --------> [Here it comes, Sarah! Her's the point, as I see it.] < --------- When a monk enters & emerges from that very attainment, his mind is pliant & malleable. With his pliant, malleable mind, limitless concentration is well developed. With his well developed, limitless concentration, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. > > > -- AN IX.35 _________________________________________ MN4 Bhaya-bherava Sutta (Fear & Terror) "Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. ---------> [Okay - here's the point again!] <---------- "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details. "This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. --------------> [And again!] <-------------- "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. "This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. --------------> [And yet again] <-------------- "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30631 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/26/04 6:07:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > I remember is that sensory consciouness arise at the sense organs > and not at the mind. > ========================= It is just a manner of speaking to say that sensory consciousness arises at the sense organs. As a literal statement it is utter nonsense. One's eyes may be working just fine, but if one is unconscious there is no visual consciousness. Consciousness does not arise in the eyes, nor in the ears, nor on the tongue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30632 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Hi Howard It is not nonsense, brain is a concept so does sensory organs. Brain is conventionally where all the mind door process works but not the sense process. Brain is conditioned to work and it thinks it has sense process. We only know these experiences due to snowballing effect of countless cittas streams and it is difficult to know which is sensory which is mind just like fine sand and dust are mixed we cannot know which is which. Due to our conditioning and current science research we thought it is the brain. For example when an pin prick into a finger, the pain is felt on the finger but not on the brain. It is the nerve that transmit the information, without them, I dont think the brain will know where is the pain at all. Body consciouness arise at the pain area. Science has never prove Abdhidhamma wrong, it is unobservable does not mean it is not there. Ken O 30633 From: Eznir Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Dear Howard, Some food for thought in your interpretation of paticcasamuppada: 1) Why assume a linear relationship among the factors, why not a simultaneous occurrence of these factors, or a mixture of both. 2) In an Arahant, after the `eradication of the entire process' on what basis did their aggregates continue to survive and feel pain etc. till they broke apart. 3) The sense of subjectivity in "Vinnana as subjectivity(i.e., the sense of a knowing self)" and the sense of subjectivity as in personality view(subject/object duality)- Cannot these two senses of subjectivity be different. The former an entity(the 5-aggregates) the latter a mirage. 4) If (3) above is possible how would the paticcasamuppada unravel. Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > And yet one more thing: In what way does sankhara serve as condition > for vi~n~nana? If vi~n~nana were just awareness/experience, it is unclear why > volition or other formational processes would be required conditions. But if > vi~n~nana is subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing self), it is clear, I > think, that this arises due to ignorance-conditioned sankharic construction. > > With metta, > Howard > 30634 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Hi, Eznir - In a message dated 2/26/04 10:30:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, eznir2003@y... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > Some food for thought in your interpretation of paticcasamuppada: > > 1) Why assume a linear relationship among the factors, why not a > simultaneous occurrence of these factors, or a mixture of both. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that there is, indeed, a mix of predecessor conditioning and simultaneous conditioning. In particular, I think that vi~n~nana, namarupa, and salayatana are co-occurring and mutually conditioning. -------------------------------------------------- > > 2) In an Arahant, after the `eradication of the entire process' on > what basis did their aggregates continue to survive and feel pain > etc. till they broke apart. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't interpret the eradication of the entire process as ending experience. What has ceased are the following: ignorance, ignorance-based sankharic construction (not the neutral volitions of an arahant), subjectivity and objectivity (not experience unpolarized into apparent subject and apparent object), the sense-door conduits, contact, self-oriented feeling (not impersonal pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings), craving, clinging, becoming, birth and death and suffering. Don't forget that as I interpret it, contact is the coming together of subjectivity and objectivity via a conduit of a particular sort (visual, auditory, etc). When subjectivity and objectivity are gone, so are the conduits and the contact. But the six-sensory realm of experience continues. Experience as it actually is is direct and nondual, with there being no subject to be connected to objects - and without subjective knowing, there is no objective knowns. Are there still sights and sounds etc? Sure, but they are not objects of a knowing subject. They are, so-to-speak, self-experiencing. When the experience of no-self occurs, there is no sense of self and no objects either - but experience continues. When the items in the 12-link chain are understood as I have presented them, I believe that both the concocting direction of paticcasamupada and the unraveling direction make sense. --------------------------------------------------- > > 3) The sense of subjectivity in "Vinnana as subjectivity(i.e., the > sense of a knowing self)" and the sense of subjectivity as in > personality view(subject/object duality)- Cannot these two senses of > subjectivity be different. The former an entity(the 5-aggregates) the > latter a mirage. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure! Subjectivity (meaning "the sense of a knowing self") really does arise in the mind, and it does so practically all the time. But the "knowing self" that is sensed does not exist. So, the subjectivity (i.e., the seeming of knowing self) is a mirage/illusion in the sense that it actually points to nothing, just as the seeming of a pool of water in an utterly dry desert is a mirage/illusion because there is no pool - but, in each case, the mirage/illusion does arise in the mind of the weary wanderer. Language use is funny, of course. Sometimes 'mirage' means the illusory experience (which exists), and sometimes it means the non-existent "thing" that seems to be experienced. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > 4) If (3) above is possible how would the paticcasamuppada unravel. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not clear on your point here. But getting back to your item # 3, by 'subjectivity' I do not mean "personality view", which ends with stream entry, but "sense of self", which doesn't end until arahanthood. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Metta > > eznir =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30635 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/25/04 7:26:30 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Jack: Have you read the Thanissaro article to which I referred? James: Yes, I did. I read it before I sent the last post. I didn't want to comment too much because there are many, many things I don't agree with in that article. Actually, I did a complete double take when I read it! I was incredulous that Thanissaro had even written it. James. I would be interested on your criticism of his article so I do ask for your opinion a second time. And a third time. [snip' James: I think it is significant and telling that the Buddha never spoke of the jhanas in brief. It demonstrates how valuable they are. Have you come across any instances where he spoke of jhanas in brief? There has been lots of sutta quotes lately on this list that just mention the word "jhana" by itself so I don't know what you mean by "jhanas in brief." I get the impression that when the word "jhana" is used by itself in a sutta , a likely translation is meditation or low grade concentration and does not refer to jhana level attainment. But, I don't really know. Be well. jack 30636 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, Philip: As I mentionned before, I am so attached to all my dhamma binders, and during the day often go and pick one up, and glance in it, and put it down, and pick up another one. Throughout the day, again and again. As I mentionned before, the last time I became this deeply absorbed in soemthing was when I started to study Kanji, and it could be the Pali language aspect of the abhidhamma is one of the things that has triggered my interest, which again would suggest ego at work. Does anyone have any advice about how to handle this craving? James: My advice would be to relax a bit, stop trying so hard to `fix yourself', and work on `Right View' before you delve into any more dhamma study or meditation. What you are suffering from is common to all Buddhist practitioners at one point or another: Spiritual Materialism. It is odd that it has taken this long to manifest in your practice but perhaps it really has been there all along? The most important thing to do, I believe, is not to overreact to this Spiritual Materialism and thus allow the neurotic tendencies to resurface in other ways/areas. It is simply conceit, mana, reasserting itself in all that you do. To work on Right View, and change your priorities, I would suggest you read up on Spiritual Materialism. Here is some material from an Internet source followed by the link: "We have come here to learn about spirituality. I trust the genuine quality of this search but we must question its nature. The problem is that ego can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality. Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit. The teachings are treated as an external thing, external to "me," a philosophy which we try to imitate. We do not actually want to identify with or become the teachings. So if our teacher speaks of renunciation of ego, we attempt to mimic renunciation of ego. We go through the motions, make the appropriate gestures, but we really do not want to sacrifice any part of our way of life. We become skillful actors, and while playing deaf and dumb to the real meaning of the teachings, we find some comfort in pretending to follow the path." http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm Philip: My morning meditation has been disturbed by an overwhelming desire to hit the books. So the first thing to do is get back on the cushion, and maybe increase my sitting time for awhile. James: My advice is that you do neither for a while and practice mindfulness and development of Right View before you proceed further. Studying dhamma to `fix yourself' or meditating to `fix yourself' are both wrong practices. No reason to become overly alarmed and stop all practice, but you should work on this before you proceed. In this group there are many members who have turned the study of dhamma into a Spiritual Materialism but believe that they don't suffer from such a thing because they don't meditate. HA! Same-Same. Conceit will rear its ugly head wherever and whenever it can. Metta, James 30637 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? dear James and Philip > Philip: My morning meditation has been disturbed by an overwhelming > desire to hit the books. So the first thing to do is get back on the > cushion, and maybe increase my sitting time for awhile. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Think about the fact that the time you spend on meditation - Vipassana, Zen, Tibetan, Tantric, etc - deeps and grounds your experience either at insight or Excel tables or whatever you tie up your attention. And this' a hint on context itself: time passes on and you perceive that your posture is more solid-state, your breathing more paused and your mind more fixed up. Ekagatta. And if you don't control your eatings,lunchs, donuts, marshmallows, Cheeseburgers,Budweisers,Heinekens, Fettucine, T-Bone steaks,Apfelstrudels, chop shueis, Vichyssoises, fried potatoes, Porrigdes (yummmmm), "Feijudas", chilis, tortillas, Foundes with Gouda, Emmemnthal, Gorgonzolla, Rochefort, Camembert,Chocolates,Baked Potatoes, macarroni, Gnocchi alla Romana, Musli, Corn flakes, Kosher foods, milk shakes, Chicken Mcnuggets, Indonesian Ris,Pork meatballs, curried chicken, glazed duck, marinatted pig, jerky beef, giblets in soysauce etc, etc, etc you will become fattier also! Don't throw away your books before you perceive by insight that they are inutile!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > James: My advice is that you do neither for a while and practice > mindfulness and development of Right View before you proceed > further. Studying dhamma to `fix yourself' or meditating to `fix > yourself' are both wrong practices. -------------------------------------------------------------------- A good scorin' as usual James! You can try to "sedimentate" the leafs of your mind with time and a good position to meditate. A deep and paused breathe could help you also. --------------------------------------------------------------------- No reason to become overly > alarmed and stop all practice, but you should work on this before you > proceed. In this group there are many members who have turned the > study of dhamma into a Spiritual Materialism but believe that they > don't suffer from such a thing because they don't meditate. HA! > Same-Same. Conceit will rear its ugly head wherever and whenever it > can. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto! Mettaya, Ícaro 30638 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor op 25-02-2004 21:30 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: If > you like, you may also want bring up some doctrine in the Abhidhamma > Pitaka and examine it with the these eight principles for > recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. That > would offer some examples in applying these eight principles. N: Yes, it is the application that is essential. As we read in the Co: the Buddha taught here being in the cycle, vatta, and release from the cycle: vivatta. We read that Gotamid became an arahat after hearing this Discourse. Thus, what we read here is certainly not just theory. We read about attachment and detachment as they arise in our life. The Abhidhamma helps us to gain more understanding of the deep meaning of kusala and akusala we read about in this sutta. Passion: this arises with citta rooted in attachment: lobhamulacitta. This is always accompanied by ignorance, moha. It is most helpful to know this. Ignorance of what is wholesome, ignorance of akusala. Dispassion is the cetasika alobha, and this arises with each kusala citta. There is always a degree of detachment with each kusala citta. Kusala citta is also accompanied by adosa, non-aversion or kindness. And it may or may not be accompanied by pa~n~naa. We read about indolence: this represents the akusala cetasikas sloth and torpor: thiina and middha. When they are present there is unwieldiness of mind, they are the opposites of right effort. We read about exertion or effort: the four right efforts that are actually the effort of the eightfold Path. When there is a moment of satipatthana there is also right effort: so that unarisen akusala does not arise, so that arisen akusala is overcome, so that unarisen kusala is aroused, so that arisen kusala is maintained and developed. Satipatthana is the condition for the guarding of the sense-doors. Learning more about the different realities of our daily life can help us to develop understanding of their characteristics when they appear. It is essential to know the difference between what is kusala and akusala, what is dispassion and what is passion. They should be realized as conditioned namas that are anatta. They arise because of their appropriate conditions. This sutta, as so many suttas, deals actually with sati and the absence of sati. When we learn the difference between such moments satipatthana can be developed. Gotamid did not mere listen to this Discourse, she was mindful and developed right understanding of all realities that appeared right there and then. Otherwise she could not have become an arahat. For us, it is like this: we learn about citta, cetasika and rupa and partly we can verify them in our life, but, this does not mean that we have clear understanding of their characteristics. When we once in the future attain enlightenment we shall know: the truth that is directly realized now is in complete conformity with all that is contained in the Tipitaka. All doubts are gone. We can then exclaim with full conviction: this is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction! Nina. 30639 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38am Subject: speech intimation, 1 speech intimation, 1 Our intentions are not only communicated by gestures, but also by speech. Speech intimation (vacíviññatti) is a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. The ³Dhammasangani² ( Ch II, § 637) states: What is that rúpa which is intimation by language (vacíviññatti)? That speech, voice, enunciation, utterance, noise, making noises, language as articulate speech, which expresses a thought whether good, bad, or indeterminate - this is called language. And that intimation, that making known, the state of having made known by language - this is that rúpa which constitutes intimation by language. When someone¹s intention is intimated through speech it is then intelligible to others. The meaning of what is intimated is known after reflection about it, thus, it is cognizable through the mind-door. Speech intimation itself does not know anything, it is rúpa. The ³Visuddhimagga² (XIV, 62) gives the following definition of speech intimation [3] : Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth-element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung to matter [4] . Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element.... The proximate cause of bodily intimation is the element of wind or motion which is produced by citta, whereas the proximate cause of speech intimation is the element of earth or solidity which is produced by citta. According to the ³Atthasåliní² (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta. Footnotes: 3. See Dhammasangani Ch II, 636, 637, and also Atthasåliní I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 86,87, and II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 324. 4. According to the Commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the ³Paramattha Mañjúså² (452): ³The function (knocking together) of the vocal apparatus (clung to matter)². *** Nina 30640 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening. Hi Howard, op 25-02-2004 20:16 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I agree, Nina, that this is conditioned by listening. But is that > *all* that conditions this? (It's about all that I hear on this list! ;-) > Oh, and one more thing: As regards listening, why would there not be a > "self" who wants to do that constructive thing as well? N: Certainly also listening is bound to be done by a self. Whatever we do can be done with wrong view so long as we are not a sotapanna. I am glad you dig this up. What else can be done and how, is a big question. Association with the right friend in the Dhamma, we read in the suttas. I will not give you an orthodox answer today, you have heard about the right conditions as explained in the suttas often enough. How do we know for sure who is the right friend? We can only verify for ourselves whether he/she has helped us to have more understanding of dhammas in daily life (it always has to be daily life). Has the right friend helped us to have a tiny bit less clinging to the self, is what he/she teaches in conformity with the Tipitaka or contrary to it? Did he/she help us to perform more kusala in life. We can only answer this for ourselves, personal decisions have to be taken. I do not believe that arguing is useful, or trying to convince someone else. I can only say how I feel about all this myself. It is a gain to learn what exactly one is ignorant of, namely, of the realities occurring in daily life. And it is a gain to at least *know* when we cling to an underlying notion of self, no matter what we do, even when we perform kusala. As A. Sujin recently said, don't we perform it for our own sake? I had to stop and think about that. I recently quoted this from a tape: You may think, also other religions teach this, there is nothing special here. I believe this saying has a deep meaning. Other people can tell me do this or that, but I cannot do good on command, it has to come from within. It is understanding above all that helps to be just a little more detached from *me* and that can inspire to help others, even when I formerly was always inclined to say: not now, it is not convenient now. This is only a small matter, but I am learning from the events of my life even though it is at a very slow pace. Each stay in Thailand gives me a little push. Listening. This includes studying the Tipitaka and Commentaries. Asking questions about knotty points. It is not enough to read one sutta or a few suttas, we have to study many, so that we can make cross references. We should study what is said about the practice, about jhana and vipassana. We have to consider: what is the purpose of study and of meditation. I think: less ignorance, less clinging to self. More understanding of the present moment. If study and practice do not lead to this, they are pointless. At the same time I know that a result soon should not be expected. Practice according to what we learnt is another condition. The practice, as I see it, has to be in conformity with the Tipitaka. We have to be on the look out for lobha that wants to have fast results and looks for a short cut to reach the goal. This is an enormous hindrance as I see it. I am grateful to all good friends who point out to me my failures! I am less inclined now to wait for the arising of sati and pa~n~naa, expecting something to happen. My life rolls on by conditions and I am learning to live more by the moment. I do whatever is at hand. You said that we all select those parts of the scriptures we like. This cannot be avoided, it is all very personal. Take the Abhidhamma. When I came to A. Sujin's house for the first time she taught me about nama and rupa, about Abhidhamma, and it clicked. Just accumulations, I think from past lives. Icaro had the same experience. Others are not taken to the Abhidhamma, this is understandable. It was most helpful for me to learn that the Abhidhamma is not just words and terms, but that it deals with daily life. Now some more chatting about listening. In Bgk Jon told me that he listens each day forty minutes to a Dhamma CD during his walk. That is a good example for me, I should listen more. A. Sujin said, when you listen to the Dhamma you think more of the Dhamma instead of thinking about other things. Very practical. In Bgk I had a full program: in addition to the sessions, there were the radio programs, early morning, and in the evening. The Thai sessions had always special subjects: sutta readings and discussions. On Sunday there is always one hour about Vinaya. From 4-6 there is special study with Pali, subtle points of the teachings such as "objects that are not so classified" (avattabbamarammana). I listen now to my 19 hours of tapes I made. Hopefully I can put some order in them and write something. Nina. 30641 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, defilements. Hi Philip, op 25-02-2004 07:41 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: I begin to learn how to > see beyond all my conceptual baggage to absolute realities. In my > case, it will mean consciously using certain times of the day - for > example when I'm sitting on the train or walking home or walking down > the corridor toward the classroom where I teach English - to do so. > This will represent nothing more than a beginner's first steps. Sorry > for misrepresenting your books! N: You do not misrepresent anything. I think it can come naturally that you think over what you read. Just reading is not enough, we also have to deeply consider what we read, in daily life. PH: I wonder how I should take this sentence from the preface to > ABL: "While we are studying the different names and rupas and while > we are pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of rupa > and nama appearing at that moment." I took that as a kind of > exericise, to be consciously aware of rupa and nama when I find > myself pondering things, which I invariably do during my train ride > to and from work. N: Now I would write This more carefully: I would add: slowly, slowly so!!! It is sati and pa~n~naa, *if* they arise. But we cannot have any expectations, that is attachment and it hinders sati. Thus, to be consciously aware could be inspired by clinging, we have to check this. When we read about nama and rupa we can be reminded that they are not just theory. When they appear (to sati and pa~n~naa) understanding of their characterisrtics can be developed. But, I should add, it is quite a step from theoretical understanding to direct understanding. Moreover, we can only *think* of the three characteristics so long as nama is not realized as nama and rupa as rupa by insight, direct understanding. You were pondering on defilements. The Pali term kilesa is quite strong: impurity, stain. There are different levels of them: the coarse level: akusala to the degree of evil deeds. the medium level: akusala cittas the subtle level: the latent tendencies that do not arise, but that are powerful since they can give rise to akusala citta. They lie dormant in each citta like microbes infesting the body. They can only be eradicated by the supramundane cittas that attain enlightenment. For me and my friends it is normal to speak about our akusala, akusala is so common and we all have it. I find that I learn from examples of akusala in daily life, both of myself and of others, they are a reminder. It is good to discuss what you read, otherwise there can be misunderstandings about what I wrote. So, not such a good idea to temporarily become a lurker!!! One month, taihen desu ne. Remember, it is not the amount of reading that matters, but more: in how far do you carefully consider what you read. In how far have you understood it. You could meet Rob K and have discussion. His students were translating my Buddhism in Daily Life. Do not kick yourself, you do not have to answer my posts, that saves some time for reading. A suggestion: you ask what you find unclear, but then you do not have to react again to what I write. Is this a deal? Nina. 30642 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:I think we're fully agreed on all the initial points;-), so I'm skipping to the end. Thank you for answering my questions here: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Why is the earlier aim to focus? We agreed there are only paramattha dhammas, whether there is any knowledge of them or not. Why is the earlier aim not to hear, consider and begin to understand them as for the later part? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Paramattha is through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. Before The Buddha, all beings held Atta. Atta is only released at the first gateway to Nibbana. If someone is not ariyan then she or he will hold atta view however she or he is saying I do not have atta I just have anatta. If already passed through the gateway and on the path no journey is needed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:When I read about a special focus and then no focus or as others sometimes write, using a self to understand non-self, it makes no sense to me. There is no self to focus in the first place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Whether you are talking like this or not paramattha dhamma is paramattha dhamma. Whether Htoo exists or not paramattha dhamma is paramattha dhamma. Whether Htoo lives in Taiwan or Singapore or Korea or Japan, no one is living there but only nama and rupa there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ...If there is a special focus or concentration, it seems like an idea of catching or slowing down realities again or trying to control the conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) Just smile. I do not laugh. Can you slow down realities? In which way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Excellent! This is a real `poking' group, all in good friendship;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:So we agree here that the theoretical right understanding is essential.If there is the idea of atta, there will be practise with the idea of atta. We can certainly agree this understanding is the tool and the map shows the landmarks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate Sotapatti Magga Citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:OK You explained this nicely before in terms of paramattha dhammas. I think we have to be careful when we say `some choose to become...'. It all depends on conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Still there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >May you feel ease and peace and practise mahasatipatthana and achieve something right now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:That's it.....sati sampajanna now...no need to wait for a special time or special focus and wasting time not understanding the present realities arising and falling away as we speak. You mentioned in Sensing Dhammas (3)that `his concentrated mind stays for a while' when really, I don't believe any citta or cetasika stays at all, falling away as soon as it has arisen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are you showing up that you have arrived at the milestone called Bhanga Nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for your other clarification in the other post which I understood. I was just being dense the first time, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ease. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You asked if I am `Mahayana';-) Please let me know why you ask. I'm intrigued. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I asked because someone in your list once clearly mentioned that you are Mahayana. And there are messages that are not with Theravada teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ..Actually, I just read the Pali canon a little. I was brought up strictly as a Christian, but I became very interested in the Buddha's teachings when I was about 20. My turn to ask a personal question:-) Where do you live, Htoo? (Just a continent or country if you don't wish to say exactly). Also, I'd be very honoured if you'd share a photo in our album. If you need help, there are many willing hands to assist with this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To grasp the idea necessary for realization of realities, learning all Pali language will be futile but a little is sufficed. But necessary words need to be learned in detail. There are many shifts. Someone was a Moslem but later becomes a Christian. Christian to Buddhism, Moslem to Buddhism, Christian to Moslem, Buddhism to Christian and so on. As you are just about to be on the right path you should not think that there is 'you'. You should not think that this is mine this is my turn etc etc. This is my real kindness. Please do not attach to anything. All the same, there is no 'me' no 'Htoo'. Just a citta arises and immediately falls away. Due to that citta, cittaja rupa arises at the same time of arising of that citta. That cittaja rupa is the actions of this typing. Arising of these words has conditions. Nothing arises without any condition. There is no country and there is no continent but just vanna, sadda, gandha, rasa, pathavi, tejo, vayo, apo etc etc. When is your next DSG meeting? How long will it be? How many will be attending? What are the activities at the meeting? How much is a day stay at hotels there where the meeting will be? I will be looking forward to hearing from you, Sarah. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Metta and appreciation again with your good responses to all the `poking';-)I enjoy these discussions a lot - no need to quote or explain terms or texts;-) Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- May you really see Anatta. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 30643 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:47am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /PATTHANA1.doc Uploaded by : htootintnaing Description : Patthana ( Introduction ) by Htoo You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/PATTHANA1.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, htootintnaing 30644 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear all Very good...but it's only scratch the surface of these ponderous book! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > File : /PATTHANA1.doc > Uploaded by : htootintnaing > Description : Patthana ( Introduction ) by Htoo > > You can access this file at the URL > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/PATTHANA1.doc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Let us wait for more to come! Mettaya, Ícaro 30645 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/26/04 1:43:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 25-02-2004 20:16 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I agree, Nina, that this is conditioned by listening. But is that > >*all* that conditions this? (It's about all that I hear on this list! ;-) > >Oh, and one more thing: As regards listening, why would there not be a > >"self" who wants to do that constructive thing as well? > N: Certainly also listening is bound to be done by a self. Whatever we do > can be done with wrong view so long as we are not a sotapanna. > I am glad you dig this up. What else can be done and how, is a big question. > ========================== Thank you Nina for taking the time and making the effort to give such a detailed reply. Very kind of you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, Andy and Howard, ... > "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the > immaterial > realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which > presupposes the ear faculty" (III, #21c) > > N: And there is another reason. When born in planes where there is no rupa > he cannot learn to distinguish nama from rupa, and continue on with the > subsequent stages of insight. > Nina. Good point, Nina. Thanks for mentioning it. Accumulated and deeply-seated ignorance and wrong view of rupas caannot be eradicted if there are no rupas to condition the arising of that ignorance and wrong view in that lifetime; and as long as that accumulated ingorance and wrong view is there latent in the consciousness (anusaya), it will be an obstacle to enlightenment. This again shows the importance of anusaya. For similar reasons, the development of the path in this lifetime involves being true to oneself about the mass of kilesa that we have (as Philip has been talking about); any idea that the path would be better developed by having more kusala and less akusala first misses the point, I think (but of course we all have the tendency to think like that -- maybe quite a lot of the time). Jon 30647 From: Andy Wilson Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:27pm Subject: bhavanga-calana all, my private reading of AS has taken me to #4, the compendium of the cognitive process, and I would like to ask a semi-technical question. I apologise in advance because I suspect this question will be answered by the text at some point, but I am curious (impatient ;-) now to know; when the text speaks of 'vibrating bhavanga' / bhavanga-calana, what does it mean to use the metaphor of 'vibration'. is the metaphor extended (fast vibration / slow vibration, strong vibration / weak vibration)? what does it mean? how is it useful? I think the question is important to me because I believe answering it will tell me something more fundamental about the nature of citta as such, rather than something specific to bhavanga(?) I apologise for asking what must seem like an odd question, but I can't find a satisfactory answer anywhere else. metta andy 30648 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:33pm Subject: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Jhana and insight hand-in-hand > > > >       There's    no jhana > >    for one with    no discernment, > >                no discernment > >    for one with    no jhana. > >    But one with    both jhana > >                & discernment: > > he's on the verge > >       of Unbinding. > > >> -- Dhp 372 > > ..... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Help! Jhana attack! I have a few of your messages put aside which I plan to get back on when I've found a few of my own bright lights (maybe after the weekend, unless others come to my rescue first;-). Also Jack and one or two others - pls be patient if I'm slow. Metta, Sarah ====== 30649 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > P: Grateful is one way to put it. Feverish is another. I have been > feeling devoted day in, day out to deepening my Buddhist practice but > coming across the ideas in the Abhidhamma seem to have turned my > enthusiasm into a kind of fever - . As I mentionned before, I > am so attached to all my dhamma binders, and during the day often go > and pick one up, and glance in it, and put it down, and pick up > another one. Throughout the day, again and again. > ,snip.> > Does anyone have any advice about how to handle this craving? I am > thinking about the Factors of Awakening, which contain both calming > and stirring factors. Obviously I need to be cultivating equanimity > and concentration now. That's another thing. My morning meditation > has been disturbed by an overwhelming desire to hit the books. So the > first thing to do is get back on the cushion, and maybe increase my > sitting time for awhile. > ======== Dear Philip, Do you know the story of Bahiya: He had thought he was enlightened until a deva told him he was only deluded. He then had greay urgency to see the Buddha and travelled without stopping across India. ""Then Bahiya, deeply chastened by the devata, left Supparaka right then and, in the space of one day and night, went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking meditation in the open air. He went to them and, on arrival, said, "Where, venerable sirs, is the Blessed One staying -- the arahant, right self-awakened? We want to see him." He couldn't wait until the right time to see the Buddha. But the Buddha knew he was over-excited and so refused to answer till the third time Bahiya spoke. The Buddha sopke his short sutta and Bahiya becmae an arahant. The words of the Buddha were the condition for insight of the difference between nama and rupa to arise and so deeper stages of insight could then occur. The study of Dhamma - in general terms- is not akusala, but, as you see, sometimes akusala moments come in. We could try to stop any akusala, or look for different objects that we believe don't condition craving: however,I think what is most freeing is learning to see dhammas just as they are here and now. Take the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta. The Buddha said (p1074 bodhi)"Bhikkhus a bhikkhu should examine things in such a way that while he is examining them his consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck internally.If his consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck internally and if by not clinging he does not become agitated, then for him there is no origination of suffering or birth, ageing and death in the future." In the sutta Mahakaccana explains what the Buddha meant by "agitation due to clinging" (upadaya paritassana). " Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore, when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety, agitation, and concern."" http://www.abhidhamma.org/maha_kaccana.htm#ch5 Do we feel agitated when vinnana (consciousness) changes form what we think it should be? Or do we see that vinnana is not self and so develop detachment from the idea of a self who is controlling vinnana. Before the buddha taught about conditionality and anatta, sages understood that objects through the sense doors condition craving. And so they developed jhanas, very difficult to do so, so that all contact at the 5 doors ceased. But the path of the Buddha not the stopping of contact, rather it is insight into the six doors. So I think we become less concerned about what the object is, and whether there is akusala or akusala, and the focus changes to the anattaness and conditionality of the moment. Then every moment is so utterly perfect and instructive. This doesn't rule out developing samatha or other ways of kusala, but I think it is helpful to see the difference. RobertK 30650 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. Hi all, I read through the passages § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. And here is some reflection: These three passages has one common theme; namely, the theme on jhana. I understand that jhana leads to dispassion, not passion because to enter and remain in jhana one has to withdraw from sensuality, from unskillful mental qualities. One has to withdraw from passion in the first place. And the ending of effluents, the root of passion, also depends on jhanas. In attaining jhanas, one develops wholesome/skillful qualities that are more and more refined. Equanimity is also developed in jhana. Attaining jhanas leads to dispassion, and I see it as the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. Comments on these three passages from both meditators and non- meditators are welcome. Metta, Victor 30651 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Back to the cushion: was Link to book on Paramis Hi Philip, Glad you decided to keep posting. I see you are undecided as to whether it is study or formal practice that leads to enlightenment – choosing to have a bet each way. We can't let you off that easily. :-) May I ask; is your sitting meditation aimed at jhana or at satipatthana? There is a lot of confusion over the meaning of those terms. LSD, TM, religious ecstasy, self-hypnosis; all offer mind boggling experiences complete with coloured lights, peace, goodwill, oneness with the universe, and so on. Needless to say, none of those practices was taught by the Buddha -- jhana and vipassana are paths of wisdom, not of mere technique. A jhana practitioner is one who, first and foremost, knows kusala citta from akusala citta. He also knows how to avoid and suppress akusala cittas long enough to intensify the rapture, equanimity and other mental factors that accompany kusala cittas. Many people claim to have attained jhana and many others are in doubt as to whether they have or they haven't. In my opinion, there can be no doubt as to whether a particular experience was jhana absorption or whether it was a simple trick of the mind. In the former case, the practitioner will be a modest, reclusive, `master of morality' who never confuses lust with love, hate with righteousness, ignorance with bliss, and so on. (He is a unique personality.) In the second case, the person involved could be any of the common personality types we meet every day. Similarly, satipatthana is a path of right understanding, not just of morality and, certainly, not of techniques. Unlike jhana, satipatthana knows paramattha dhammas. There is no preference for kusala dhammas over akusala – any dhammas that arise in the present moment are suitable. If you are sitting, on a cushion, thinking that `right conditions' have to be put in place before right understanding can occur, then you are not practising satipatthana. Fortunately, even this wrong practice can be seen with right understanding. So, in a moment immediately following your wrong thinking, you might see, with right understanding, "This is wrong understanding," or, "This is wrong effort." But why should we wait for a subsequent mind moment; the only moment we ever really have is right now. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > My morning meditation > has been disturbed by an overwhelming desire to hit the books. So the > first thing to do is get back on the cushion, and maybe increase my > sitting time for awhile. > > 30652 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:35pm Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Sarah (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Jhana and insight hand-in-hand > > > > > > >       There's    no jhana > > >    for one with    no discernment, > > >                no discernment > > >    for one with    no jhana. > > >    But one with    both jhana > > >                & discernment: > > > he's on the verge > > >       of Unbinding. > > > >> -- Dhp 372 > > > > ..... > AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Help! Jhana attack! LOL! Don't worry, I don't think those symbols are soldiers. Actually, to me, they kind of look like little Eiffel Towers! ;-)) How cultural! ;-) I absolutely loved the list that Howard gave and the reasons he gave it. Honestly, I have thought a few times of doing something similar, but on a grander scale. I was thinking about compiling a list of every sutta quote in the entire Pali Canon which mentions the value of meditation and posting the entire list anytime anyone speaks against meditation. I'm sure it would be pages and pages long! Hehehe…But I would probably get moderated; hey, so what, wouldn't be the first time! ;-) I hope that Howard reposts his list every time you or someone else speaks against meditation in a generalized fashion. Hopefully, at some point, you (and they) will get a clue and stop preaching against what the Buddha taught! > > I have a few of your messages put aside which I plan to get back on when > I've found a few of my own bright lights If you are hoping to find the 'light of your mind' that Howard and I have been discussing, you will need to begin to practice Jhana meditation. This type of light can't be bought at Home Depot! ;-). Did you forget already what Jhana is? Do I need to repost Howard's entire list again?? ;-)) (Howard---I think Sarah needs another reminder ;-). (maybe after the weekend, unless > others come to my rescue first;-). Also Jack and one or two others - pls > be patient if I'm slow. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Metta, James 30653 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I would be interested on your criticism of his article so I do ask for your opinion a second time. And a third time. James: Okay, since you really want to know: Thanissaro: Many people tell us that the Buddha taught two different types of meditation -- mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation. Mindfulness meditation, they say, is the direct path, while concentration practice is the scenic route that you take at your own risk because it's very easy to get caught there and you may never get out. But when you actually look at what the Buddha taught, he never separates these two practices. James: Yes, the Buddha did separate these two types of practices. I can't believe that Thanissaro, who has translated a lot of the Pali Canon, has made such a ridiculous statement. I have given one sutta quote already and Jon gave another. I'm sure that I could come up with even more if I looked but I think just one is sufficient-- since Thanissaro uses the word `never' just one example proves his whole case wrong (BTW, `Allness' statements are usually wrong.) Thanissaro: But if you look in the Canon where the Buddha describes jhana, that's not the kind of state he's talking about. To be in jhana is to be absorbed, very pleasurably, in the sense of the whole body altogether. James: This describes only the first and second jhanas, not the third and fourth or the arupa jhanas (immaterial jhanas). Thanissaro seems to want to oversimplify jhana for the sake of making a point. Thanissaro: To see how Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration help each other in the practice, we can look at the three stages of mindfulness practice given in the Foundations of Mindfulness Sutta. Take the body as an example. The first stage is to keep focused on the body in and of itself… James: Thanissaro has jumped from describing jhana to describing vipassana (satipatthana) as if they are the same thing. This is faulty logic and it is using a type of argumentation called `Bait and Switch'. The Buddha gave different suttas on the two types of practices because they are different. If they weren't different he would have only given one type of sutta. Thanissaro: We tend to confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's actually happening. James: I find this to be another over-simplification. Mindfulness, or sati, doesn't mean just to remember something. It includes many other qualities of mind. As the Buddha described it: "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world." So, `mindfulness' includes ardency, alertness, remembrance, and wholesomeness. Thanissaro: To do this, you have to learn about how things arise and pass away in the mind, not by simply watching them, but by actually getting involved in their arising and passing away. James: What?? Allowing oneself to get involved in the drama of the mind is not the purpose of mindfulness meditation. At this point in his discourse he should be emphasizing the role of equanimity. I am not sure if he realizes what he writes here because just one paragraph later he writes: Thanissaro: Suppose that anger is interfering with your concentration. Instead of getting involved in the anger, you try simply to be aware of when it's there and when it's not. You look at the anger as an event in and of itself -- as it comes, as it goes. James: Whew! That was close! Now he is back to teaching what the Buddha taught; unfortunately, he veers off again right after this: Thanissaro: But you don't stop there. The next step -- as you're still working at focusing on the breath -- is recognizing how anger can be made to go away. Sometimes simply watching it is enough to make it go away; sometimes it's not, and you have to deal with it in other ways, such as arguing with the reasoning behind the anger or reminding yourself of the drawbacks of anger. James: The Buddha didn't teach to `argue' with the reasoning behind the anger. Where is that going to get a person? I wrote a post to this group before about this subject and what the Buddha taught and `arguing' with the anger isn't one of the courses of action to use: The Buddha taught five methods which one can use to stop unwholesome thoughts after they arise. And the Buddha realized that these thoughts can be very powerful so he gave successive `treatments' to use. If the first one doesn't work, use the next one and so forth until the negative thought(s) (and accompanying emotion) is gone: 1. Reflect on a different object which is wholesome 2. Consider the disadvantages of the thought 3. Don't pay attention to the thought 4. Reflect on the removal of the source of the thought 5. Mentally beat down the thought The sutta and commentary notes can be found at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel021.html You will notice that nowhere in this list does the Buddha recommend to get emotionally involved with the unwholesome thought. Equanimity and detachedness should be present at all times, even when `beating down the thought'. Thanissaro: One technique I like to use -- when anger is present and you're in a situation where you don't immediately have to react to people -- is simply to ask yourself in a good-natured way, "Okay, why are you angry?" Listen to what the mind has to say. James: Why is Thanissaro now talking so much about anger? What is the focus of this article? So far he has jumped from jhana, to mindfulness, to anger. If he was in my English class and he submitted this article to me, I would give it back to him and have him rewrite it-- with a clearer and more focused thesis. Thanissaro: (1.) And it's the same with the mind: unless you actually try to make something out of the mind, try to get a mental state going and keep it going, you don't really know your own mind….(2). The same holds true with the mind. Of course, you could learn something about the mind by trying to get it into any sort of a state, but for the purpose of developing really penetrating insight, a state of stable, balanced, mindful concentration is the best kind of soufflé or pot you want to make with the mind….(3.) It's the same with the mind. When it has been well fed with the rapture and ease coming from concentration, it's ready to learn. It can accept your criticisms without feeling threatened or abused. James: This is getting redundant and silly. Thanissaro seems to be comparing everything but the kitchen sink to the mind. Wait! A kitchen sink can contain dirty dishes which it can then make clean- It's the same with the mind! ;-)) Thanissaro: So it's important to realize that there are these three stages to mindfulness practice, and to understand the role that deliberate concentration practice plays in taking you through the first two. James: I completely missed where he enumerated these three stages and, by this point, I (as a reader) am not going to make the effort to go back and try and figure it out. He has lost me. Metta, James 30654 From: Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/26/04 11:35:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Jhana and insight hand-in-hand > > > > > >>      There's    no jhana > >>   for one with    no discernment, > >>               no discernment > >>   for one with    no jhana. > >>   But one with    both jhana > >>               &discernment: > >>he's on the verge > >>      of Unbinding. > >>>>-- Dhp 372 > >> > ..... > AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Help! Jhana attack! > > I have a few of your messages put aside which I plan to get back on when > I've found a few of my own bright lights (maybe after the weekend, unless > others come to my rescue first;-). Also Jack and one or two others - pls > be patient if I'm slow. > > Metta, > > Sarah ========================= LOL!! That's really very funny, Sarah! ;-)) I do have a serious concern, though: The upper-case A's topped by circumflexes do occur as you show them in my post on the website, but that post of mine with all the quoted pro-meditation propaganda ;-) came back to my in-box from Yahoo in quite pristine form, with spaces where the A's appear. Inasmuch as a couple of other posts of mine not so long ago appeared with hieroglyphics inserted, I'm concerned whether this is how my post appeared to others who don't read the posts at the website but receive them as e-mail. With triple-A metta ;-)), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30655 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi RobertK, Regarding Bahiya Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10a.html "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." What does 'with that', 'in that' mean? Regards, Swee Boon 30656 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration. The development of concentration leading to the ending of the effluents is different from that leading to a pleasant abiding here and now (jhana). And the development of concentration leading to a pleasant abiding here and now (jhana) is not a pre-requisite for the development of concentration leading to the ending of the effluents. Regards, Swee Boon 30657 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 1:40:35 AM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Jack: I would be interested on your criticism of his article so I do ask for your opinion a second time. And a third time. James: Okay, since you really want to know: James, thanks for the comments. I agree with Thanissaro. Since he presents his position far better than I could defend it, I will let it stand, at least for now. I think with a closer reading of the article by you many of your criticisms would fall away. But, maybe I would agree with you after a closer reading by me. If I have time later today, I will read both Thanissaro and your comments again. I leave tomorrow for a short retreat. Be well. Jack 30658 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:05am Subject: Concepts *and* ultimate realities Hello all Thank you for the responses to my mini-drama post yesterday. No time to read them tonight. Well, I could, but I picked up on Nina's suggestion not to comment on her posts. (It's a deal, Nina:) ) That was an enormously helpful suggestion, because indeed one of traps I create for myself is feeling that I must respond to everyone who is kind enough to post, and since just saying "thanks" doesn't seem enough, I launch into comments, which brings out a ditthupadana mess. Reflexively, I start defending my views, before I even have time to listen carefully to the words I've received. "Thanks for what you said, and here's what *I* think." This is the habitual behaviour I've gotten into at other discussion groups in the past, but I think I'll try something new. I think I'll print out all the responses I receive and read them off-line, and comment the following day, or later. Had a great day, though sick. Just floated on through it, still on a kind of abhidhamma high (for the time being, of course.) I think what grabs me so much about it is that for the last 2 years or so, since I started practicing seriously, I've developed a practiced based largely in conceptual realities. I'm good at it, to tell the truth. I do things with Brahma-Viharas that would make a snake smile. And I've known enough to know that it wasn't getting at ultimate realities, but was a way for me to generate a positive energy with others in my daily life, and interaction with people, especially strangers, is what it's all about for me. To get at ultimate realities I have had a wobbly grasp of dukkha, annata and annica, but reading about the abhidhamma suddenly laid them out a road map to understanding them deeply. (AJahn Brahmavasaro called one of his dhamma talks "A travelogue to the Jhanas" and I would say that the abdhidhamma is like a travelogue to annata, annica and dukkha. What has attracted me to the Theravada side of the tracks is that the Buddha's teaching is so explicit, and based on logical examination of experience. I hadn't yet found the explicit expression of annata, annica and dukkha and I think I have in the abhidhamma. As I've read a few times already, the flavour of the abhidhamma is not- self, and that's a flavour I need to taste more of. However, my exitement about it doesn't mean abandoning my conceptual practice. Maybe because I'm a bit of a writer, concepts come naturally to me, and I think we should go with what comes naturally, if it comes naturally from a true place. It seems to me that the abhidhamma will give a foundation of practice towards ultimate realities to be on while I practice the conceptual practice of Brahma-Viharas. If I understand correctly from what I've read so far, in the ahidhamma Metta and other sublime minds arise as a result of conditions, presumbaly along with the uprooting of defilements. The flowers blooming naturally when the weeds have been cleared out to give them the conditions they need to bloom, perhaps. I like that. It's logical, and involves a certain amount of rigour, which I want in my practice. On the other hand - well, in another hand, I believe, rightly or wrongly, in consciously cultivating Buddha's immeasurables minds. These two aspects, conditioned arising, and intentional cultivation, probably seem mutually exclusive, and they may be. I guess I'll find out. I see in the Useful Posts section that there is a section "Concepts vs. Ultimate Realities." For the time being, I will be practicing towards concepts *and* ultimate realities. We'll see what happens with it. As I wrote before, I have a feeling I will move gradually towards a more non-conceptual practice. I'm keen on conceptual practice not only because I have a knack for it. I also believe it's important to make the BUddha's teaching accessible to newcomers, and as thrilled as I am by the abhidhamma, it could hardly be called accessible. In the post that caught my eye, Jon (thank you!) wrote that study of sutta could only be done at a deep level by one who has already grasped the abhidhamma. I would add a prior stage, and say that before coming to the abdhidhamma, people must come across the Buddha's teaching in a user-friendly form. I think the Brahma-Viharas are the most user friendly of them all. And I know from personal experience how helpful they are. They've done wonders for me. I would like to relate to Robert K, whom I hear lives in Japan, and to you all, how the Brahma-Viharas have helped me to overcome the hostility and sadness that often arose in my about being a visible minority in Japan. As you all know, it may very well be the most homogenous nation on earth, and xenophobic, in the literal "fear of outsiders" sense of the word, rather than the racist one, and for someone like me who had formed idealistic attachments to community in the years before I came to Japan, this was hard. I used to use alcohol to break down barriers, but now they're gone thanks to Brahma-Viharas. I won't lay the BVs on you here because I have another group devoted to them, but I'm sure they'll pop up. Anyways, just wanted to let you know that I'm interested in finding out to what degree it's possible to practice towards both conceptual and ultimate realites. Of course, I'll be reading that section of the Useful Posts. With Metta, Philip 30659 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Howard I think this is a very brillaint sutta Borrowing this from RobK previous email on dependent origination. (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote I hope this answer your question on "who makes effort?" Ken O 30660 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/27/04 9:36:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Group, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? > There is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now. There is the > development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads to > the attainment of knowledge &vision. There is the development of > concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads to mindfulness & > alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when > developed &pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now? There is the > case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from > unskillful qualities -- enters &remains in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought &evaluation, he > enters &remains in the second jhana: rapture &pleasure born of > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & > evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he > remains in equanimity, mindful &alert, and physically sensitive to > pleasure. He enters &remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble > Ones declare, 'Equanimous &mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' > With the abandoning of pleasure &pain -- as with the earlier > disappearance of elation &distress -- he enters &remains in the > fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &mindfulness, neither pleasure nor > pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &now. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &vision? There is the > case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved > on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] > is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an > awareness open &unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is > the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads > to the attainment of knowledge &vision. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to mindfulness &alertness? There is the case where > feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, > known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, > known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to > him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This > is the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, > leads to mindfulness &alertness. > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where > a monk remains focused on arising &falling away with reference to the > five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its > passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its > passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such > their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such > its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, > when developed &pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "These are the four developments of concentration. > > > The development of concentration leading to the ending of the > effluents is different from that leading to a pleasant abiding here > and now (jhana). > > And the development of concentration leading to a pleasant abiding > here and now (jhana) is not a pre-requisite for the development of > concentration leading to the ending of the effluents. > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ============================ # 1 These are all meditative pursuits. # 2 This sutta is trotted out whenever someone wants to "prove" the alleged relative lack of usefulness of jhanas for the ultimate goal. But it is a single sutta out of many. There are also *many* suttas which demonstrate how the jhanas serve to help make the mind a fit tool for investigation of dhammas, and there are suttas that even define "right concentration" as the first four jhanas. (And there are yet others that define it differently.) In some ways the Tipitaka is like the Jewish and Christian bibles in that if one is desirous enough its posible to justify from material found there almost whatever one's fondest position might be. # 3 The point is that the Buddha repeatedly taught his followers the virtues of meditating, and he gave various emphases, various reasons, and various definitions pertaining to it in various contexts. But he never advised against meditating. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30661 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear Icaro, I aim to discuss. I know this is very active group and there are many experts in this group. I just touch area by area so that dhamma is touch everywhere. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear all > > Very good...but it's only scratch the surface of these ponderous > book! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > File : /PATTHANA1.doc > > Uploaded by : htootintnaing > > Description : Patthana ( Introduction ) by Htoo > > > > You can access this file at the URL > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/PATTHANA1.doc > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Let us wait for more to come! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 30662 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/27/04 10:16:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > I think this is a very brillaint sutta > > Borrowing this from RobK previous email on dependent origination. > (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) > "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. > Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' > Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes > contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this > case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, > contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. > Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote > > I hope this answer your question on "who makes effort?" > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ken?? You're saying that I, that's me - not someone else - asked who makes effort? Do you think that I've given any indication that I believe in an agent who does things? A self? An actor? Truly amazing! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Ken O > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30663 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Howard I know. But your suttas are quoted like someone try etc... the questions is, is the sutta talking about someone make effort or conditions. Ken O 30664 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Howard, Good. In future, to justify the merits of meditation, wouldn't this sutta which I quoted would be of far much value than any of the suttas which you quoted? Jhana attainments is just one aspect of meditation. Although it is encouraged by the Buddha, it is not a requirement for the development of concentation leading to the ending of the effluents. Regards, Swee Boon 30665 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/27/04 11:28:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > I know. But your suttas are quoted like someone try etc... the > questions is, is the sutta talking about someone make effort or > conditions. > > Ken O > ========================== Well, in any case, I had not asked a question about "who" makes an effort. It is not a qustion that I would ask, because it contains a presupposition that I don't accept. The Buddha used conventional speech - as we all do - as you have just done. After all, none of us has the month available that is required to convey the content of a single sentence using close-to-literal speech. It would take nearly a month just to think up and utter all the disclaimer clauses needed, and even then, not all conventionality could be removed. If one is unhappy with the format of the suttas, unfortunately there isn't much that can be done about that. The Buddha isn't around to grant permission to make changes in them. Anyway, he *was* a superb teacher, and he presumably knew what was a good way to present the Dhamma. Also he didn't teach his followers to do nothing but listen to him and to think about his words. He taught them to practice the Dhamma as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30666 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:25am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. Hi all, I forget to include the link to the passages § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion I would also like to point out some qualities as I see them present in these passages that leads to dispassion: Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation -- internal assurance. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful and alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress -- he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. 'I tell you, the ending of the effluents depends on the first jhana.' [On attaining the fourth level of jhana] there remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable & luminous. "He discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. (Similarly with the remaining formless states.)' He neither fabricates nor wills for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, he is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I read through the passages § 1.6, § 1.7., § 1.8. And here is some > reflection: > > These three passages has one common theme; namely, the theme on > jhana. I understand that jhana leads to dispassion, not passion > because to enter and remain in jhana one has to withdraw from > sensuality, from unskillful mental qualities. One has to withdraw > from passion in the first place. And the ending of effluents, the > root of passion, also depends on jhanas. In attaining jhanas, one > develops wholesome/skillful qualities that are more and more > refined. Equanimity is also developed in jhana. Attaining jhanas > leads to dispassion, and I see it as the Vinaya, the Teacher's > instruction. > > Comments on these three passages from both meditators and non- > meditators are welcome. > > Metta, > Victor 30667 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/27/04 11:34:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Good. In future, to justify the merits of meditation, wouldn't this > sutta which I quoted would be of far much value than any of the suttas > which you quoted? > > Jhana attainments is just one aspect of meditation. Although it is > encouraged by the Buddha, it is not a requirement for the development > of concentation leading to the ending of the effluents. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > =========================== As I said, there are many wonderful suttas. This is a very good one. So, for example, are those that define "right concentration" as the first 4 jhanas. We can each favor whatever we favor - as our prejudices take us! ;-) Or, of course, we can let go of thinking we really know what's what, accept all that we can learn from in the Dhamma, and engage in any of the practices the Buddha taught, confident that the Buddha and his Dhamma are worthy of trust. I, personally, feel no compusion to attain jhanas. If my meditative practice and other training leads me into them, wonderful. If it leads me into an in-tandem development of samatha and vipassana, superb! Whatever. I can't control or predict the outcome. But I can engage in practice as best I understand the Buddha's teachings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30668 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: speech intimation 2 speech intimation 2 Bodily intimation and speech intimation are rúpas conditioned by citta, but these two kinds of rúpa are not rúpas with their own distinct nature and characteristic. Rúpas can be classified as sabhåva rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature (sa meaning: with, bhåva meaning: nature) and asabhåva rúpas, rúpas without their own distinct nature. The eight inseparable rúpas are sabhåva rúpas, they each have their own distinct nature and characteristic. As we have seen, bodily intimation and speech intimation are a ³certain, unique change² in the great elements, they are a quality of rúpa, namely: changeability of rúpa. Thus, they are asabhåva rúpas. The eight inseparable rúpas on which the two kinds of intimation depend are produced by citta, according to the ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 337). In the case of bodily intimation the element of wind and in the case of speech intimation the element of earth plays its specific role. Do we realize whether speech intimation is conditioned by kusala citta or by akusala citta? We may know in theory that we speak with akusala citta when our objective is not wholesomeness, such as generosity, kindness or the development of understanding of the Buddha¹s teachings, but do we realize this at the moments we speak? Even when akusala kamma through speech, such as lying or slandering, is not committed, we may still speak with akusala citta. We may find out that often our speech is motivated by akusala citta. We speak with cittas rooted in attachment when we want to gain something, when we want to be liked or admired by others. With this objective we may even tell ³tales² about others, ridicule or denigrate them. We are attached to speech and we often chatter just in order to keep the conversation going. We tend to feel lonely when there is silence. Usually we do not consider whether what we say is beneficial or not. We have to speak to others when we organize our work in the office or at home. Do we realize whether there are at such moments kusala cittas or akusala cittas? When we lie there is the committing of akusala kamma through speech. Speech intimation is produced by kusala citta when we, for example, with generosity and kindness try to help and encourage others in speaking to them. When we speak about the Buddha¹s teachings there may be kusala cittas, but at times there also tend to be akusala cittas, for example, when we are conceited about our knowledge, or when we are attached to the people we are speaking to. Many different types of citta arise and fall away very rapidly and we may not know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta. There can be mindfulness while speaking, but we may believe that this is too difficult since we have to think of what we are going to say. Thinking is a reality and it can be object of mindfulness. There are sound and hearing and they can be object of mindfulness when they appear. We are usually absorbed in the subject we want to speak about and we attach great importance to our speech. We live most of the time in the world of ³conventional truth², and we are forgetful of ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). In the ultimate sense there is no speaker, only empty phenomena, conditioned nåmas and rúpas. **** Nina. 30669 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga-calana Hi Andy, op 26-02-2004 23:27 schreef Andy Wilson op andy@l...: > > when the text speaks of 'vibrating bhavanga' / bhavanga-calana, what > does it mean to use the metaphor of 'vibration'. is the metaphor > extended (fast vibration / slow vibration, strong vibration / weak > vibration)? what does it mean? how is it useful? N: This citta is disturbed by the object that impinges but it does not experience it. It is followed by another bhavanga citta that is the last one of the stream of bhavanagas which is then broken off, so that process cittas arise. I have the Co (p. 126) here: it is explained that the bhavanga-calana is supported by the heartbase (a rupa near the heart). When a fly sits on a grain of sugar on the surface of a drum and the drum is beaten by a stick, the sugar also vibrates and the fly flies off. This is heavy reading. All these rupas arise and fall away very fast, but there is some connection between them. When there is impingement on a sense-base, somehow this kind of vibration influenecs the heartbase (successive vibrating), and thus it can be said that the bhavangacalana is disturbed, or affected by the object that is impinging and that will soon be experienced by sense-door cittas arising in a process. Nina. 30670 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis, note 27, no 2 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your helpful additions, making the link with daily life. We cannot stress this enough. Otherwise people think that it is all theory, concepts or abstract notions. op 26-02-2004 08:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > S:We have an idea of making an intention and then moving he body, but in > reality there are many conditions and factors involved in order for the > elements to be changed in such a way as to bring about bodily intimation. N: Yes, and we also learn how very fast these conditions operate. A gesture is made before we realize it. And even akusala kamma can be performed through bodily intimation: when someone gives an order to kill by a gesture. > > ..... >> N: There are only dhammas rolling on because of conditions, they are >> uninterested, they do not know anything. They are very momentary >> (kha.nika), > > S:And this is the aim of considering any part of the teachings which are > all in conformity: the understanding of the nature of the uninterested’ > dhammas rolling on. People may think that by understanding, not doing > anything special, that our worlds will collapse. As you’ve said, let them > crumble away’;-) The understanding of dhammas as anatta leads to taking > refuge in the Triple Gem, not the reverse. 30671 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro's food and rupa Dear Icaro op 26-02-2004 19:37 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > And if you don't control your eatings,lunchs, donuts, marshmallows, > Cheeseburgers,Budweisers,Heinekens, Fettucine, T-Bone > steaks,Apfelstrudels, chop shueis, Vichyssoises, fried potatoes, > Porrigdes (yummmmm), "Feijudas", chilis, tortillas, Foundes with > Gouda, Emmemnthal, Gorgonzolla, Rochefort, Camembert,Chocolates,Baked > Potatoes, macarroni, Gnocchi alla Romana, Musli, Corn flakes, Kosher > foods, milk shakes, Chicken Mcnuggets, Indonesian Ris,Pork meatballs, > curried chicken, glazed duck, marinatted pig, jerky beef, giblets in > soysauce etc, etc, etc you will become fattier also! Nina: All the world's food. Look at it. The only rupa that can be seen is colour, but what variety of colour there is. All the food on the shelves of the Super: just pure octads: the four great Elements and four more: colour, odour, flavour and nutrition. What a variety in these pure octads, amazing. This is because of different compositions of rupas. For instance, solidity, the element of earth can appear as softness or hardness, the element of heat can appear as heat or cold. Cold is still the element of heat, but it is a matter of degree. It all is a matter of degree. See, when I am cooking, it makes a lot of difference whether I put salt, and how much, or sugar, and how much. Putting the macaroni in an oven that is too hot: look at it. The colour may become black, a horrible taste and smell. When melting sugar, its solidity changes; it becomes liquid. Thus a great variety of the composition of rupas is possible. They arise and fall away very fast but we take them for very important. Imagine: Icaro enters the shop. The citta makes him move around, and he needs the vikara rupas (rupas of change) of lightness, malleability and wieldiness, so that his gait is light and supple (he has not neglected his jogging after the bootcamp). Also the groups of rupa originated from kamma, from nutrition, and from temperature are supporting the movement. Icaro lifts his hand in a greeting and beckons to the shopkeeper, and then there is bodily intimation. He then tells him what he needs and there is verbal intimation. Also when shopping there are nama and rupa. There is a great variety in the composition of rupas and there is a great variety in cittas. Lobhamulacittas are classified as eight, but there are endless shades and degrees of them, and they are combined with different cittas. Icaro, look at Dsgn (p. 254), nikkhepa kandam, hetu-gocchakam, about hundred definitions of lobha. It is very beautiful. We cannot escape nama and rupa. Nina. 30672 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg]kasina Dear Sarah, op 27-02-2004 05:33 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Hi Howard, Help! Jhana attack! N: I have no experience with jhana and I only know what I read in the suttas, co and Visuddhimagga. You remember, Sarah, that we touched on the kasina with Vince and A. Sujin? The meaning of kasina is: encompassing all. We talked about the earth kasina: we cling to earth. Table, chair, food, the cloths we buy, it is all earth. The aim of samatha is detachment from sense objects. The colour of the earth kasina should not be attractive, as the Vis. says, otherwise one clings to it. It is most important to understand and develop the jhanafactors. To know when there are the hindrances. Thus, a high degree of sati and panna are needed so that one can distinguish between attachment, lobha, and detachment, alobha. The development of jhana is not a matter of just looking at the kasina or trying to concentrate on it. If one sees a mental image it is important to realize: is there lobha or alobha? This image can be due to accumulated tendencies in former lives. It should be seen just as it is: because of conditions citta experiences it. When it has bliss as result, this enthusiasm and joy should be thoroughly investigated, otherwise one may mislead oneself all the time. Enthusiasm and joy can arise with lobha and with alobha. This can and should be investigated in daily life. Even when there is detachment it can be immediately followed by attachment, and all such moments should be known. Certain effects of the jhana developed without sati and panna may be similar to jhana developed with sati and panna. Only the person who develops jhana can find out: is there kusala citta with detachment and understanding, or is there akusala citta with attachment? I read in the Visuddhimagga about the development of special powers such as divine eye in the case of someone who has mastery of the four jhanas. He should use the fire kasina, the white kasina or the light kasina (Vis. XIII, 95 f.f.). <..it should be stopped at the level of access and extended there... It is only what is visible within the area to which the kasina has been extended that can be seen...> It is described that visible objects that are not within the focus of his fleshly eye come into the focus of his eye of knowledge. They are as if seen with the fleshly eye, and then the divine eye has arisen. They are: Vis. XIII, 100: The Vis. refers to the following sutta: M.S. no 128, Defilements (Upakkilesa sutta). This sutta also deals with the light manifestation and the appearance of visible objects. The Buddha said to Anuruddha, Nandiya and Kimbila, that formerly, when he developed jhana, the light manifestation and the appearance of visible objects disappeared because of defilements. He had to know defilements such as doubt, sloth and torpor, etc. When he had too much energy concentration fell away. He had to realize those defilements at the moment they occurred. He also had to know very precisely the jhanafactors which were to be developed: initial thought, discursive thought, etc. After he had developed jhana he attained arahatship. This implies also the development of insight. As we know, the Buddha penetrated the dependent origination while sitting under the Bodhitree. We see that a very precise knowledge of citta and cetasikas is indispensable. Also jhanacitta should be known as anatta. See the satipatthanasutta, the application of Mindfulness on citta: mahaggata citta (jhanacitta) is mentioned under citta. Thus, no matter one develops jhana or not, in the end all realities should be known as they are. Nina. 30673 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I agree with Thanissaro. Since he presents his position far better than I could defend it, I will let it stand, at least for now. James: Fine, you can agree with Thanissaro. No big deal; I don't care. But I think you should consider carefully the reasons why you agree with him about this issue. Jack: I think with a closer reading of the article by you many of your criticisms would fall away. James: I assure you- I could not read that article any closer! If I read it any closer my eyeballs would be touching the computer screen! ;-) I have read it intensely from beginning to end, many times; that is why I was able to give you such a detailed analysis. If you have specific comments, I would be willing to address those; but here you are simply casting aside all of my efforts (done on your behest) with a vague comment. Honestly, I don't appreciate that. Jack: But, maybe I would agree with you after a closer reading by me. If I have time later today, I will read both Thanissaro and your comments again. James: Okay, do that. I am not sure why you wrote this post if you haven't carefully considered what we both have written yet. Metta, James 30674 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 12:55:05 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Jack: But, maybe I would agree with you after a closer reading by me. If I have time later today, I will read both Thanissaro and your comments again. James: Okay, do that. I am not sure why you wrote this post if you haven't carefully considered what we both have written yet. Cheez. Let me restate what i tried to say. I read your comments carefully. I read Than.'s article carefully. After that, I had nothing to add. But, I will try to reread everything later today and respond back to you. jack 30675 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Good. In future, to justify the merits of meditation, wouldn't this > sutta which I quoted would be of far much value than any of the suttas > which you quoted? > > Jhana attainments is just one aspect of meditation. Although it is > encouraged by the Buddha, it is not a requirement for the development > of concentation leading to the ending of the effluents. > > Regards, > Swee Boon I think you are downplaying the importance of jhana far too much. Consider this information: "The value of the jhánas, however, extends beyond the confines of the Arahat's personal experience to testify to the spiritual efficacy of the Buddha's dispensation. The jhánas are regarded as ornamentation's of the Arahat, testimonies to the accomplishment of the spiritually perfect person and the effectiveness of the teaching he follows. A worthy monk is able to „gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhánas pertaining to the higher consciousness, blissful dwellings here and now." This ability to gain the jhánas at will is a „quality that makes a monk an elder." When accompanied by several other spiritual accomplishments it is an essential quality of „a recluse who graces recluses" and of a monk who can move unobstructed in the four directions. Having ready access to the four jhánas makes an elder dear and agreeable, respected and esteemed by his fellow monks. Facility in gaining the jhánas is one of the eight qualities of a completely inspiring monk (samantapásádika bhikkhu) perfect in all respects; it is also one of the eleven foundations of faith (saddhá pada). It is significant that in all these lists of qualities the last item is always the attainment of Arahatship, „the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom," showing that all desirable qualities in a Bhikkhu culminate in Arahatship. [6] The higher the degree of his mastery over the meditative attainments, the higher the esteem in which an Arahat monk is held and the more praiseworthy his achievement is considered. Thus the Buddha says of the ubhatobhágavimutta Arahat: „There is no liberation in both ways higher and more excellent than this liberation in both ways" (D.ii,71). The highest respect goes to those monks who possess not only liberation in both ways but the six abhiññás or „super-knowledges": the exercise of psychic powers, the divine ear, the ability to read the minds of others, the recollection of past lives, knowledge of the death and rebirth of beings, and knowledge of final liberation. The Buddha declares that a monk endowed with the six abhiññás, is worthy of gifts and hospitality, worthy of offerings and reverential salutations, a supreme field of merit for the world (A.iii,280-81). In the period after the Buddha's demise, what qualified a monk to give guidance to others was endowment with ten qualities: moral virtue, learning, contentment, mastery over the four jhánas, the five mundane abhiññas and attainment of the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom (M.iii, 11-12). Perhaps it was because he was extolled by the Buddha for his facility in the meditative attainments and the abhiññas that the venerable Mahákassapa assumed the presidency of the first great Buddhist council held in Rájagaha after the Buddha's passing away." http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas06.htm Metta, James 30676 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 1:40:35 AM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Thanissaro: Many people tell us that the Buddha taught two different types of meditation -- mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation. Mindfulness meditation, they say, is the direct path, while concentration practice is the scenic route that you take at your own risk because it's very easy to get caught there and you may never get out. But when you actually look at what the Buddha taught, he never separates these two practices. James: Yes, the Buddha did separate these two types of practices. I can't believe that Thanissaro, who has translated a lot of the Pali Canon, has made such a ridiculous statement. I have given one sutta quote already and Jon gave another. I'm sure that I could come up with even more if I looked but I think just one is sufficient-- since Thanissaro uses the word `never' just one example proves his whole case wrong (BTW, `Allness' statements are usually wrong.) jack: Many suttas have the word "jhana' in them. Thanisarro thinks most people define jhana incorrectly (see his first sentence below). If he is correct, these suttas do not prove him wrong. Thanissaro: But if you look in the Canon where the Buddha describes jhana, that's not the kind of state he's talking about. To be in jhana is to be absorbed, very pleasurably, in the sense of the whole body altogether. James: This describes only the first and second jhanas, not the third and fourth or the arupa jhanas (immaterial jhanas). Thanissaro seems to want to oversimplify jhana for the sake of making a point. Jack: Thanis. mentions the 4th jhana in his next paragraph. Thanissaro: To see how Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration help each other in the practice, we can look at the three stages of mindfulness practice given in the Foundations of Mindfulness Sutta. Take the body as an example. The first stage is to keep focused on the body in and of itself… James: Thanissaro has jumped from describing jhana to describing vipassana (satipatthana) as if they are the same thing. This is faulty logic and it is using a type of argumentation called `Bait and Switch'. The Buddha gave different suttas on the two types of practices because they are different. If they weren't different he would have only given one type of sutta. Jack: To repeat myself, Thanis. thinks jhana and vipasssana are not two separate practices but aspects of the same practice. His comments are consistent with this. No bait and switch is involved. The Buddha didn't present his teachings in one sutta. He presented it in many different suttas emphasizing different aspects. One sutta would emphasis this. Another sutta would emphasis that. Thanissaro: We tend to confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's actually happening. James: I find this to be another over-simplification. Mindfulness, or sati, doesn't mean just to remember something. It includes many other qualities of mind. As the Buddha described it: "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world." So, `mindfulness' includes ardency, alertness, remembrance, and wholesomeness. Jack: To me, focusing my attention on the body means I remember to focus my attention on my body. That is what Thanis. is saying. Thanissaro: To do this, you have to learn about how things arise and pass away in the mind, not by simply watching them, but by actually getting involved in their arising and passing away. James: What?? Allowing oneself to get involved in the drama of the mind is not the purpose of mindfulness meditation. At this point in his discourse he should be emphasizing the role of equanimity. I am not sure if he realizes what he writes here because just one paragraph later he writes: jack: Thanis. is not saying to get involved in any drama. He is saying to deeply feel/realize arising and passing away, not to stay on the surface. Thanissaro: Suppose that anger is interfering with your concentration. Instead of getting involved in the anger, you try simply to be aware of when it's there and when it's not. You look at the anger as an event in and of itself -- as it comes, as it goes. James: Whew! That was close! Now he is back to teaching what the Buddha taught; unfortunately, he veers off again right after this: Thanissaro: But you don't stop there. The next step -- as you're still working at focusing on the breath -- is recognizing how anger can be made to go away. Sometimes simply watching it is enough to make it go away; sometimes it's not, and you have to deal with it in other ways, such as arguing with the reasoning behind the anger or reminding yourself of the drawbacks of anger. James: The Buddha didn't teach to `argue' with the reasoning behind the anger. Where is that going to get a person? I wrote a post to this group before about this subject and what the Buddha taught and `arguing' with the anger isn't one of the courses of action to use: The Buddha taught five methods which one can use to stop unwholesome thoughts after they arise. And the Buddha realized that these thoughts can be very powerful so he gave successive `treatments' to use. If the first one doesn't work, use the next one and so forth until the negative thought(s) (and accompanying emotion) is gone: 1. Reflect on a different object which is wholesome 2. Consider the disadvantages of the thought 3. Don't pay attention to the thought 4. Reflect on the removal of the source of the thought 5. Mentally beat down the thought The sutta and commentary notes can be found at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel021.html jack: Your 5 methods involve (1) reflecting, (2) considering, (3) not paying attention, (4) reflecting again and (5) mentally beating down the thought. To me, this involves arguing --especially (5) beating down. Nowhere does Thanis. say to lose one's equanimity. You will notice that nowhere in this list does the Buddha recommend to get emotionally involved with the unwholesome thought. Equanimity and detachedness should be present at all times, even when `beating down the thought'. Thanissaro: One technique I like to use -- when anger is present and you're in a situation where you don't immediately have to react to people -- is simply to ask yourself in a good-natured way, "Okay, why are you angry?" Listen to what the mind has to say. James: Why is Thanissaro now talking so much about anger? What is the focus of this article? So far he has jumped from jhana, to mindfulness, to anger. If he was in my English class and he submitted this article to me, I would give it back to him and have him rewrite it-- with a clearer and more focused thesis. jack: One aspect of jhana/vipassana meditation is overcoming the 5 hindrances. Anger is one of the 5 hindrances. So, it seems to be very fitting to bring in anger. Thanissaro: (1.) And it's the same with the mind: unless you actually try to make something out of the mind, try to get a mental state going and keep it going, you don't really know your own mind….(2). The same holds true with the mind. Of course, you could learn something about the mind by trying to get it into any sort of a state, but for the purpose of developing really penetrating insight, a state of stable, balanced, mindful concentration is the best kind of soufflé or pot you want to make with the mind….(3.) It's the same with the mind. When it has been well fed with the rapture and ease coming from concentration, it's ready to learn. It can accept your criticisms without feeling threatened or abused. James: This is getting redundant and silly. Thanissaro seems to be comparing everything but the kitchen sink to the mind. Wait! A kitchen sink can contain dirty dishes which it can then make clean- It's the same with the mind! ;-)) jack: Next thing Thanis. might do is to bring up anthills, elephant foot prints and a lion's roar. Silly man. Thanissaro: So it's important to realize that there are these three stages to mindfulness practice, and to understand the role that deliberate concentration practice plays in taking you through the first two. James: I completely missed where he enumerated these three stages and, by this point, I (as a reader) am not going to make the effort to go back and try and figure it out. He has lost me. jack: It's there if you look. . I hope we are each presenting his understanding of both the dhamma and Thanis's article instead of butting heads. Your last post activated my head butting complex. I apologise if this came across in this post. jack 30677 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 0:49pm Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Carl - > Thank you for this post of yours. Clearly I spoke too soon and made some unwarranted assumptions, particularly that what is obvious to me need not at all be so to others. I very much regret my use of the expression "cognitive disorder". I thank you for not having taken umbrage at my use of that phrase. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Nothing wrong with the phrase at all! But perhaps just more common than you may have realized. I would consider samsara a cognitive disorder. :) Carl 30678 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 0:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Christine >Christine writes: >Maybe we could form a support group for the >Phenomenonally Challenged and ask for tutoring from the Cognitively >Abled LOL! Thanks for the support. We are not alone I'm sure. Actually I think of the DSG as just such a support group. Thanks for being here. Carl --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/22/04 2:42:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > Hello Carl, Swee Boon, Howard, Larry and all, > > > > Carl - thank you for this post - I was beginning to feel a little > > anxious that I was the only one with this 'cognitive disability'. I, > > too, could understand intellectually some facts - like Rupa is > > physical phenomena that does not experience anything; and Nama is > > mental phenomena that experiences something - but still confuse sound > > and flavour etc. as mental phenomena. Maybe we could form a support > > group for the Phenomenonally Challenged and ask for tutoring from the > > Cognitively Abled - that is, if we are not so far beneath their > > August notice that it prevents them realising we exist? > > (a little mana, perhaps, Howard :-) - that's mental BTW :-)) > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > ============================ > Actually (truly) - it wasn't mana. It was seriously a matter of not > thinking at all that people might significantly confuse nama and rupa. The fact > that some do, and it obviously is the case that some do, is still truly > surprising to me. Had I realized this to be the case, I would certainly not have > used the phrase "cognitive disorder", and, as I wrote to Carl, I regret having > done so. > > With metta, > Howard > 30679 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Carl - In a message dated 2/27/04 3:52:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, c7carl@y... writes: > Hi Howard, Nothing wrong with the phrase at all! But perhaps just > more common than you may have realized. I would consider samsara a > cognitive disorder. :) ------------------------------------ Howard: Right you are!! ;-) ------------------------------------ > Carl > ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30680 From: Carl Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Icaro, Thank you for your response to my post. Your words are appreciated and helpful. Carl --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Carl: > > > Dear Howard and Swee Boon: Respectfully, I must confess to being one of those that has had > > difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama. It has taken me much > > effort and time to realize that "the name is not the form", "the > > map is not the ground". To begin to sense that "things" can be > > pulled apart to the point of annata was a rather startling (and > fun) > > concept for me. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > As a matter of fact, Carl, every perception we get for external > world is Nama conjoined with Rupa: an easy reference could be rupa > as the body and nama as the soul... but at Dhamma we haven´t got > such nonsense. Cf The Dhammapada , 380 : The Dhamma has not got an > Ego, a self, as a Merchant or his horse, or his refuge or his > master. So, Dhamma is Anatta, or, is devoid of Self, as the human > law, applied to all citizens without any distinction of this Self or > that Self. > And at our mind´s realms, Rupa and Nama exist together. I take > Nama as the medieval nominalist could take such term: nama is not a > metaphisycal "Form" of Matter, is more or less akin of a label we > put on our experience of world... and, at the last stand, Rupa and > not Nama is a Aramana Dhamma (Cf. Dhammasangani, last chapter). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > The catagories of nama/rupa were as if a tar pit in my mind. I > could > > not distinguish between form and feelings. Heck, i couldn't even > > distinguish between feelings! i really did not understand what a > > feeling was, or that my perception of a "thing" was seperate from > > that "thing". I could not distinguish between a tree and "my > idea" > > of that very same tree. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > Spinoza could try a classification of human feelings at > his "Ethica More Geometrico Demonstrata". > Nietzsche could try the same at his "Ecce Homo". > Buddha prefers a viewpoint at with such affairs are seen as > impermanent aggregates of causes and conditions. > At the Abhidhamma´s Puggala book we get also a classification of > human types. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > I was definatally a dweller in downtown > > samsara. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > It could be better than to be a definitively dweller on Downtown > Barra, Rio de Janeiro...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAH!!!! > But, speaking serious now, it will of no use try to transform > Samsara in Nibbana only by means of positive thinking. It doesn´t > works at this way, mister! > You must get a firm decision to boldly thread up the Path to > Nibbana an throw off aside Samsaric tracts. Again The Dhammapada, 75 > (Last stanza of Dhammapada V, Baalavagga): there are two distinct > ways, the way towards illusory material pleasures - Samsara - and > the way towards Nibbana. That´s the question. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The Abhidahmma is really good for me, as now i have a place to > hang > > and seperate each sticky item as i am able to pull it from the tar > > pit. Over there on the cetasika rack i have hung feelings, and > next > > to that is perception and close by is mental formations. And > look! > > Hanging on the citta rack is consciousness. Ah! the nama closet! > > Now on to the rupa closet. :) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks to Internet, The Abhidhamma field is now more cheaper than > seems - it won´t cost to you the proverbial thirty silver coins! > Don´t hang yourself in anything you think to be unsecure ...and I > hope this words may do you good! > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 30681 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:12pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: Many suttas have the word "jhana' in them. Thanisarro thinks most people define jhana incorrectly (see his first sentence below). If he is correct, these suttas do not prove him wrong. James: I am not considering `most people'; I am only considering the Buddha. The Buddha didn't define jhana incorrectly. When the Buddha said jhana he meant jhana, when he said satipatthana he meant satipatthana. I don't see what the issue is. Jack: To repeat myself, Thanis. thinks jhana and vipasssana are not two separate practices but aspects of the same practice. His comments are consistent with this. No bait and switch is involved. James: Well, to repeat myself ;-), Thanissaro is wrong about this. What else can I say? He is wrong. He isn't the Buddha; he isn't an arahant; it is actually possible for him to be wrong. Jack: The Buddha didn't present his teachings in one sutta. He presented it in many different suttas emphasizing different aspects. One sutta would emphasis this. Another sutta would emphasis that. James: I'm sorry, but you are going to have to be a little more specific. I gave you the Samadhi Sutta where the Buddha specifically describes different practices of concentration which lead to different results: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html In this sutta the Buddha describes jhana as being one type of concentration and satipatthana as being a different type of concentration. How much plainer can it get? ;-) Give me just one sutta where the Buddha said that it isn't important to consider the differences and that there is really only one type of meditation. Jack: To me, focusing my attention on the body means I remember to focus my attention on my body. That is what Thanis. is saying. James: Yes, mindfulness does involve remembering but that isn't all. Are all you doing is remembering to focus on your body? What about actually doing it? I could remember that I need to buy eggs at the store but nothing will happen until I actually go buy them. jack: Thanis. is not saying to get involved in any drama. He is saying to deeply feel/realize arising and passing away, not to stay on the surface. James: To `feel' and to `realize' are two different things. Feelings are suffering; realization is wisdom and isn't suffering. You are being as unspecific in your use of terms as Thanissaro, that was all I was saying. jack: Your 5 methods involve (1) reflecting, (2) considering, (3) not paying attention, (4) reflecting again and (5) mentally beating down the thought. To me, this involves arguing --especially (5) beating down. Nowhere does Thanis. say to lose one's equanimity. James: First, these are the Buddha's methods, not mine. Second, I don't think that one can `argue' with equanimity. The very word `argue' means that feelings are involved with automatically destroys equanimity. Of course, this is a semantic issue and Thanissaro didn't elaborate what he really meant so we can drop it. jack: One aspect of jhana/vipassana meditation is overcoming the 5 hindrances. Anger is one of the 5 hindrances. So, it seems to be very fitting to bring in anger. James: First, what do you mean by `jhana/vipassana meditation'? I thought you are agreeing with Thanissaro that there aren't any differences? Now you are really confusing me! ;-)) Second, when writing an essay or article it isn't okay to start elaborating at length on anything that is only somewhat related to your main thesis. I have a B.A. in English and a Masters in English Education, trust me on this one! ;-)) jack: Next thing Thanis. might do is to bring up anthills, elephant foot prints and a lion's roar. Silly man. James: Glad you see it my way! ;-) Yes, Thanissaro is being a silly man. And if the Buddha had brought up all of those metaphors in just one sutta I would consider him a silly man also. (This is another of those `English things' but I gave you a full criticism since you asked for one.) jack: It's there if you look. James: I shouldn't have to hunt around and piece together Thanissaro's points. If it is there could you please quote it for me? Jack: I hope we are each presenting his understanding of both the dhamma and Thanis's article instead of butting heads. Your last post activated my head butting complex. I apologise if this came across in this post. James: Don't worry; I do that to a lot of people! ;-)) I didn't think your last post was anything to apologize for- no big deal. I have butted heads with Ken O so this is like a stroll on the beach compared to that! ;-) However, I think I am simply presenting my ideas in as rational and unemotional way as possible. How you may react to those ideas isn't my responsibility. Honestly though, I didn't know that you had such strong opinions about Thanissaro's article before I posted about it. I thought you were neutral and just wanted another opinion (I don't usually make such a big mistake like that…my psychic ability must be on the fritz lately! ;-) Metta, James 30682 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:45pm Subject: Vism.XIV 62 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV 62. 15. Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth element that causes that occurrence in speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung-to matter.28 Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of the voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element. But it is called 'verbal intimation' because it is the cause of the intimating of intention by means of the voice in speech, and because it is itself intimatable through speech, in other words, through that voice in speech. For, just as, on seeing a sign for water consisting of an ox skull, etc., hung up in the forest, it is intimated that 'there is water here', so too, on noticing either the bodily shaking or the voice in speech thus, they intimate. 29 (See Dhs. 637.) -------------------- note 28. Vaciibheda--'speech utterance' is not in P.T.S. Dict., which does not give this use of bheda. Pm. (p. 452) explains: 'The function (--"knocking together") of the vocal apparatus (--"clung-to matter"). note 29. 'The question, "It is the mode and the alteration of what?", should be handled in the same way as for bodily intimation, with this difference: for "next to the apprehension of the appearance of movement" substitute "next to the hearing of an audible sound". And here, because of the absence of stiffening, etc., the argument beginning "For it is the air element given rise to by the seventh impulsion" does not apply; for the sound arises together with the knocking together, and the knocking together only applies in the case of the first impulsion, and so on. The knocking together is the arising of groups of primaries (bhuuta-kalaapa) in proximity to each other due to conditions. The movement is the progression of the successive arising in adjacent locations. This is the difference. The earth element's knocking together is parallel to the air element's moving as regards function' (Pm. 452). 30683 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 3:16:01 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Honestly though, I didn't know that you had such strong opinions about Thanissaro's article before I posted about it. I thought you were neutral and just wanted another opinion (I don't usually make such a big mistake like that…my psychic ability must be on the fritz lately! ;-) James, I don't have a strong opinion about this article. I don't know if it is right or wrong, though I suspect it is right. (I do think your criticisms are wrong.) And, I'm not really concerned about the whole vipassana/jhana thing. It doesn't affect my practice which is the most important to me. jack 30684 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 62 Hi Nina, A couple of questions: 62: "Its function is to display intention." L: Does "intention" = "meaning"? Can we translate "what do you mean" into "what is your intention"? Is the meaning of a concept an intention? 62: "Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth element that causes that occurrence in speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung-to matter." L: Can we say that the air that passes over the vocal cords is earth element, not air element? The apparent movement is air element. Also, it seems there are many intentions involved in intimation. One is a purely functional one of making the right gesture or sound. This is most apparent when speaking a foreign language or with loss of memory. This intention is distinct from the intention that may be involved in the "message" of the intimation and the "agenda" behind the message. Are all of these intentions included in the intimation scenario? Larry 30685 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:13pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I don't have a strong opinion about this article. James: Oh, that's good. Now my reputation as `Psychic Extraordinaire' is still intact! ;-)) (I have to tease myself since Sarah isn't around to do it for a couple days! ;-) Jack: (I do think your criticisms are wrong.) James: Could you throw me a bit more of a bone than this?? I'm starving here! ;-)) What can I say? I've been defeated. ;-) Jack: And, I'm not really concerned about the whole vipassana/jhana thing. James: Good, no reason to be concerned about it. I practiced vipassana for many years and got to a point where I couldn't go forward anymore. I didn't have a strong enough foundation in calmness. I totally freaked when I really saw that my mind was appearing and disappearing! ;-)) So now I have switched to Jhana to get that foundation in calmness that I need. I may stay with Jhana or I may switch back, but I think I will stay with Jhana. I like it more and it seems to suit me better. Jack: It doesn't affect my practice which is the most important to me. James: Good. Good luck in your practice! Metta, James 30686 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Icaro's food and rupa Dear Nina: Wonderful! Your definition of the set of events of our external world as Suddhatthaka Rupakalapa or avinibhoga groups is very, very clever. Some remarks: a) Your playing between ideas over a Supermarket shelf remembers me my first readings of Dhammasangani, when the long imbricated sequence of answer and questions (more than a FAQ!) gave me the impression of a nice spiritual supermarket, where you can really pick up all Dhammas you need, Hetu and ahetu, with or without Paccaya, aramana, Vipaka, Upadinnupadipadaniya, etc, etc,etc. Usually one only Word of Dhamma would be suffice for your practice, at least at the first grade of Traditional Jhana... b) Nina, you always stated up without doubt the descend of Abhidhamma ideas to practical life. Unfortunately I haven't got time for reading your books, only excerpts... Taking on the side of grammar, I see it as a matching of language structures and how it reacts on mind. Lacan, Freud, Jung and others postulated on many works that our sub-conscience brain stracta is formated by language at a whole, even at a Symbolical level of understanding. So, the journey from Pali to Indonesian Bahasya, Thai (a very old language,older than many branches of sino-tibetan group!), Dutch (hee-hee-hee-hee...) and other modern languages of Buddhistic ideas is a paramount interest of mine. c) I've downloaded all the Dhammasangani of Tipitaka.org and the www.Metta.lk version... but it will take time to search manually the entry you quoted, dear Nina! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (he has not neglected his > jogging after the bootcamp). Also the groups of rupa originated from kamma, > from nutrition, and from temperature are supporting the movement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes! It is a double way crossroad... my sedentary work at the Military Bureau reduces my jogging time, so I get an uneasy feeling of growing fat...bleargh!!!!! So I try to manage to reduce my taking of food and drink. Fortunately I am having success on redressing the balance you mentioned - Nutrition and temperature supporting movement, and movement supporting the rupas ( and kammas) of Food. If movement becomes less "Active", so it is good policy to eat less! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Icaro, look at Dsgn (p. 254), nikkhepa kandam, hetu-gocchakam, about hundred > definitions of lobha. It is very beautiful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I could raise a proposal to a search engine to quotes and Pali terms on tipitaka texts, like the PTS Pali-English online dictionary!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > We cannot escape nama and rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Resistance is Futile... Prepare to be Assimilated (I got some "Voyager" episodes with dutch legends! Cool!) mettaya, Ícaro 30687 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 62 Hi Nina, One more question: 62: "the knocking together of clung-to matter" L: Is there any special significance to this term "clung-to matter"? Is it more clung-to than other matter? Larry 30688 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:09am Subject: Common Misconceptions of Jhana This discourse is in response to these questions: 1) Is Jhana of value in the Noble Eight Fold Path? 2) How important is Jhana in the Noble Eight Fold Path? 3) Is Jhana a practice? 4) Should Jhana be avoided? 5) Is there a path that is superior (supramundane) to jhana? 6) Are the experiences of jhana mundane within normal human experience, or are they supramundane (lokuttara)? 7) Is jhana a manifestation of an addictive behavior disorder? Right absorption (sama-samadhi) is characterized by the four absorptions (jhanas) (DN 22.21). Aside from the obvious and frequent exhortations from the Buddha that right absorption (sama-samadhi) (DN 22.21) is characterized by jhana, and that one who has skillfulness in absorption (jhana) was seen by him as "the chief, the best the foremost, the highest, the most excellent of ... meditators" (SN 34); and that the suttas are saturated and suffused with exhortations from the historic Buddha that his students give rise to absorption (jhana); then we can only conclude that at the very least jhana is not only a worthy attainment, but it is a central constituent in following the Noble Eight Fold Path. But, let me say, absorption (jhana) is not a practice, it is an attainment. Absorption (jhana) is the attainment for one who practices mindfulness (sati) correctly. We know this because absorption (jhana) is a fruit of the Noble Eight Fold Path, and Right Mindfulness (sama-sati), the 7th step leads to Right Absorption (sama-samadhi) (DN 22.21) the 8th step. We can therefore conclude if one has not given rise to absorption (jhana) one has not been practicing mindfulness (sati) correctly, and therefore they are not following the Noble Eight Fold Path. Maha-satipatthana Sutta, DN 22 "And what is right {absorption (sama-samadhi)}? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana... (through fourth jhana). I would however argue that bliss (piiti), joy (sukha), tranquility (passa ddhi) and equanimity (upekkha), which are manifestations of absorption (jhana) are indeed "outside of ordinary human experience," and thus supramundane (lokuttara), because since there is so much unhappiness (dukkha) in this world I do not believe bliss, joy, tranquility and equanimity are common daily experiences. Also the historic Buddha called absorption (jhana) supramundane (lokuttara). If you read the Samadhanga Sutta, AN 28, you will find that the correct practice of sati leads to absorption (jhana), and the yogi must seek to become saturated and suffused with the various aspects (bliss, joy, tranquility and equanimity) of absorption (jhana). Samadhanga Sutta AN V. 28 "He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal." Finally, if you are intent upon enlightenment (nibbana) in this very lifetime, then you will need absorption (jhana), because absorption provides 4 of the 7 factors of enlightenment. 3) Tranquillity passaddhi 5) Equanimity upekkha 6) Ecstasy or bliss (Rapture) piiti 7) Absorption samadhi One who believes that one who has given rise to absorption (jhana) is attached to anything does not know the suttas, nor the attainments of the Noble Eight Fold Path. Because, one who has given rise to right absorption (sama-samadhi) has given rise to absorption (jhana) by observing right mindfulness (sama-sati), and is thus "secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from sensual unwholesome states" and has found a "bliss (piiti), joy (sukha), tranquility (passaddhi) and equanimity (upekkha) that is born of seclusion" and the "abandoning of pleasure and pain" that "includes the purification of mindfulness (sati) by equanimity." (SN 9.53) Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four jhanas slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." Some say absorption (jhana) is a temporary state that suppresses the hindrance, but does not eradicate them. Anyone who believes thus does not know the suttas, and has not grasped the teachings of the Buddha. Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." In conclusion, one who does not accept absorption (jhana) as a necessary fruit of the Noble Eight Fold Path does not know the path of the Buddha. One who has not given rise to absorption (jhana) has not given rise to right absorption (sama-samadhi), therefore has not practiced right mindfulness (sama-sati), and thus has not followed the Noble Eight Fold Path. May you become enlightened in this very lifetime. Jeff Brooks 30689 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 Hello Swee Boon, this sutta happens to be one of my favorite suttas, because it reveals the relationship the jhana yogi has with the senses during absorption. I like it so much I use it in my classes. I have appended here the translation I use which is a bit different from yours and I think it is better rendered, it is of course thanks to the excellent work of Thanissaro Bhikkhu with just the slightest little tweak from yours truly. The reference to "that" is the object and I believe it refers to a nondual state in which the subject no longer perceives objects as separate from him or her self. Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 "...then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of dissatisfaction (dukkha)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/27/04 9:10:45 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:30:23 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi RobertK, Regarding Bahiya Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10a.html "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." What does 'with that', 'in that' mean? Regards, Swee Boon >> 30690 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello Swee Boon and thank-you so much for pointing out a very good example of where the confusion in a belief in different "paths" lies. I like the Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, quite a bit because it is very explicit about the results of attaining right absorption (sama-samadhi). I can see the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions are the four results of the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness is absorption and absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as they are (vipassana), and knowledge & vision which are the supramundane abilities. Secondly how one can know this is true is through attainment. I have found that without seeking these separate knowledges they have come to me purely as a consequence of a dedicated practice. And, of course Thanissaro Bhikkhus article I believe supports the belief that there is only one practice path with four fruits. Excellent work. Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/27/04 9:10:45 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:33:35 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (satis). There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration. The development of concentration leading to the ending of the effluents is different from that leading to a pleasant abiding here and now (jhana). And the development of concentration leading to a pleasant abiding here and now (jhana) is not a pre-requisite for the development of concentration leading to the ending of the effluents. Regards, Swee Boon >> 30691 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack Hello James and Jack, I would very much like to read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's article, because I believe it supports my premise as well. Is the article online? I would like to read it. I have found no evidence in the sutta pitaka to support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" or "techniques" which are implied to be the 'moist' absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight (vipassana) path. It is clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption nor insight as a practice path, but as attainments that one arrives at through the practice of mindfulness (sati). Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/27/04 9:10:45 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:39:50 -0000 From: "buddhatrue" Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I would be interested on your criticism of his article so I do ask for your opinion a second time. And a third time. James: Okay, since you really want to know: Thanissaro: Many people tell us that the Buddha taught two different types of meditation -- mindfulness meditation and concentration meditation. Mindfulness meditation, they say, is the direct path, while concentration practice is the scenic route that you take at your own risk because it's very easy to get caught there and you may never get out. But when you actually look at what the Buddha taught, he never separates these two practices. James: Yes, the Buddha did separate these two types of practices. I can't believe that Thanissaro, who has translated a lot of the Pali Canon, has made such a ridiculous statement. I have given one sutta quote already and Jon gave another. I'm sure that I could come up with even more if I looked but I think just one is sufficient-- since Thanissaro uses the word `never' just one example proves his whole case wrong (BTW, `Allness' statements are usually wrong.) >> 30692 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo Hello all. I'm going to be spending a lot of time looking through the "useful posts" file, so with your permission will bring some up to the board for another look. I was very interested to read about Rob K's experience while walking, because I do a lot of it as part of my practice, and for exercise. I used to love to ramble and find new places, but recently I have been staying in one very ordinary park near my apartment, of the sort can be found in the vicinity of any suburban train station in Japan, and walking around the walking trail again and again. I am becoming more and more familiar with the people and birds and vegetation to be found there, and am having some very interesting little insight experiences. Conceptual, as usual for me, but solid and helpful and in line with the Dhamma and because they are clearly in line with the Buddha's teaching they gave rise to confidence (saddha.) Predictably, however, I started hungering after these small insight moments, and instead of staying on the meditation object I use when walking and being aware of the humble insights arising, it they did, I started actively looking for them, and that's not the way to go about it. Rob K is deep in the abdhidhamma, and I imagine immune to this coarse kind of error, but I imagine if it were me and I went for a walk in the same wilderness the next day I would be actively looking for insight and the whole walk would be ruined. What I've just written doesn't address the topic of the whole post. Just wanted to comment on how tough it is for me not to crave insights after conditions have arisen to give me a few. And I wonder if other folks have dealt with that. It's not causing me to fret about it. It's just interesting. What a wealth of helpful posts in the useful posts section. Really enjoying my time in there. With Metta Philip P.S Rob K's post is from September 21, 2001. I know people's understanding changes as the years go by, so I hope people don't mind if I drag up their past posts. I guess it's helpful to see if and how the understanding has changed. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Venerable Dhammapiyo, > Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. > I find it not easy to talk about the practice as if it were > something we should do, different from what we are doing right > now. It seems so much just part of life, the study, the > considering, the moments when there is direct awareness; It all > goes together, and each assists the development of the others. > Writing on the internet there are many reminders of the nature > of realities, or reading the newspaper, the death and sorrow we > read about remind me of the paticcasamupada (dependent > origination) and how actually death is happening right now : the > momentary death of a moment of seeing which falls away to be > replaced by some other conditioned dhamma. > > Yesterday I went for a long walk in the New Zealand wilderness > where I am now holidaying. In one part there was a foul smell > and I soon saw the rotting carcase of a large cow in the swamp. > How does this relate to the practice and Abhidhamma? There was > smelling (a type of citta)and smell (a rupa). then so quickly > some slight degree of dosa (aversion)- a cetasika that arose > because of several conditions. Then there was very quickly the > thought that "soon I will die and be like this" and that > thinking was underlaid by detachment and calm so is a level of > samatha. And then there was some understanding of the difference > between the understanding that was at the level of samatha and > that that was of satipatthana. > There was not understanding of the degree of vipassana. Nor was > there samatha at the level of upacara (access concentration). > And yet confidence (saddha) (another cetasika - not self)was > strong. > We read in the suttas about a monk seeing a corpse, or some > other object, and how he immediately became enlightened. > Learning about these different moments in our own life one knows > how it must have been for those monks. One sees the way that > understanding develops and is confident, to whatever degree is > suitable, of what the path is. No one can say when enough > understanding will be developed so that such moments could > condition magga citta (path moment). It might be next week or it > might be a thousand lifetimes later- or much more. It doesn't > matter; what is most important is learning what the buddha > really taught and seeing it over and over. > > I believe it is not so much a matter of doing and trying but of > learning to see. The dhammas in the Abhidhamma are here and now. > We don't have to go anywhere or do anything; but there does have > to be sufficient conditions. There should be awe and respect for > the Dhamma so that one studies not with the aim of getting > something, but rather of genuinely testing out what is heard > against this moment. The more we listen and consider and > investigate directly, then for sure there are more conditions > been built up for insight. > In the very beginning there are only conditions for ignorance > and craving so almost everyone tries so hard to see. But the > sort of seeing that the Buddha meant is detached. Thus real > insight comes not from trying and wanting but through fulfilling > the correct conditions. Then there are moments, maybe a few more > every year, where awareness arises just because it must, and > this is deeper than when we try to make it come about. Then > awareness too is known as anatta, as not under control of > anyone. However, this doesn't mean 'well it's all conditioned, > I'll just let it happen'. So I am not saying 'don't try to be > aware", but by being awake to lobha(craving) we know it is > always trying to slip in. It can be extremely refined. > > Also I feel the moments when there is only heedlessness are very > natural , conditioned , not self: we don't need to be frightened > of unwholesome moments as they are only conditioned dhammas- so > insignificant and fleeting- we should see them as they are. Then > again it is not the middle way if we tolerate the kilesa either, > then we are not sincere... > Another point. I find different reminders and different ways of > considering very helpful. Otherwise there is a tendency, because > life has become easier (through more understanding, or samattha > or sila), to get comfortable and coast. Reading different suttas > reminds us of different realities and the complex ways they are > conditioned; it helps us see these dhammas as anatta when they > appear in daily life > These are just my reflections. I think there are not rules we > should follow because everyone's accumulations are vastly > different. I like what Dan wrote about this:"Instead of > prescribing a ritual to guarantee enlightenment, the Buddha > described the nature of reality and suggested that we carefully > consider his words, not just intellectually, but as they apply > to each > moment in the day." > Anumodana on your great interest for Dhamma as shown by your > life as a Bhikkhu in the sasana of the Buddha. > robert > > > Dear Robert K., > > I am deeply touched by the clear and concise explanation. It is > excellent! > > Sadhu! Sadhu! Sahdu! > > If you would be so kind, could you communicate some things about > actual > practice? > > It would be very helpful to many surely! > > Metta and Karuna > > Dhammapiyo Bhante > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Epstein" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:47 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Rob E > > > > > > --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > > > --- : > > > > _______ > > > Dear Robert E., > > > Vipassana means special or profound seeing. That is, insight > into the > > > true nature of dhammas, realities. These dhammas are > analysed and > > > explained by the Sammasamabuddha in the most careful way in > the > > > Abhidhamma. They are also explained throughout the rest of > the > > > Tipitaka but in a less comprehensive way. > > > The Buddha's teaching are sometimes called DhammaVinaya (the > > > teachings and discipline). And these are recorded in the > Tipitaka > > > (the pali canon). Ti means three and so it is divided into > 1) Vinaya > > > (rules for monks and nuns). 2)Suttanta - individual > discourses to > > > various people on diverse topics and 3) Abhidhamma > > > People have different accumulations and hence there are > differences > > > as to which aspects of the DhammaVinaya are most appealing. > However, > > > even one who devotes most time to suttanta or vinaya will > have to > > > know much about the khandas, the ayatanas(sense fields), and > the > > > dhatus(elements) , the different conditions; as these are, > as the > > > visuddhimagga says "the soil in which understanding grows". > These are > > > all found in the suttanta and even a little in the vinaya . > But it is > > > only in the Abhidhamma where they are elucidated in full > detail. The > > > Abhidhamma details all that the realities that we experience > in daily > > > life as well as those that we aspire to. Understanding > Abhidhamma is > > > synonymous with with understanding life, with vipassana . > (By > > > understanding I mean not as an academic understands but as > direct and > > > deep understanding of whatever appears at the 6doors.) > > > here is an url: > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tipintr4.htm > > > robert 30693 From: Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, Jeff (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 2/27/04 7:00:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, macdocaz1@a... writes: > > Hello Swee Boon and thank-you so much for pointing out a very good example > of > where the confusion in a belief in different "paths" lies. I like the > Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, quite a bit because it is very explicit about the > results > of attaining right absorption (sama-samadhi). I can see the confusion lies > in > a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however > it > is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions are the four results > of > the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > > How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice > path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice > path > which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is > mindfulness > of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness is > absorption and absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness > (sati), a > pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as > they > are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are the supramundane abilities. > > Secondly how one can know this is true is through attainment. I have found > that without seeking these separate knowledges they have come to me purely > as a > consequence of a dedicated practice. And, of course Thanissaro Bhikkhus > article I believe supports the belief that there is only one practice path > with > four fruits. > > Excellent work. Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks =============================== You say in the foregoing that "... absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as they are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are the supramundane abilities." This sounds as if you are saying that complete enlightenment is achievable solely by mastering the jhanas. Were that the case, then one would sensibly ask what was novel in the Buddha's teaching, inasmuch as mastering the jhanas was already the quintessence of current yogic practice circa 500 BCE? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30694 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:53pm Subject: Re: Link to book on Paramis? Dear Swee Boon, I haven't looked up the pali here. But this sutta is a summary of the Abhidhamma: insight into the present moment as being anatta. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > Regarding Bahiya Sutta, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud1- 10a.html > > "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be > merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the > sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely > what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. > > "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the > cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be > 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you > will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, > Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. > Just this is the end of suffering." > > > What does 'with that', 'in that' mean? > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 30695 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:45pm Subject: Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: I was very interested to read about Rob K's experience while > walking, because I do a lot of it as part of my practice, and for > exercise. > Predictably, however, I started hungering after these small > insight moments, and instead of staying on the meditation object I > use when walking and being aware of the humble insights arising, it > they did, I started actively looking for them, and that's not the way > to go about it. > > P.S Rob K's post is from September 21, 2001. I know people's > understanding changes as the years go by, so I hope people don't mind > if I drag up their past posts. I guess it's helpful to see if and how > the understanding has changed. ======================================================= Hi Philip, Glad you liked my little stroll in the woods. Please bring up old posts anytime. You wonder if my understanding changed since then?: only that I am even more confident that insight is a matter of seeing what is here and now, not trying to change things to be how we think they should be. The hungering for repetition of insights you mentioned is a fit object for sati. It is craving and should be known. It is classified under cittanupassana and also under dhammanupassana (nivarana). In fact the commentary says that ""the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood. "" You could become enlightened by seeing the conditionality of craving. I think I mind less and less whether craving is object, or seeing, or thinking, or dosa, or painful feeling or pleasant feeling.... Of course I crave pleasant feeling - but as an object of insight any moment is perfect because each moment is conditioned to be that way. RobertK 30696 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 2/27/04 11:28:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard > > > > I know. But your suttas are quoted like someone try etc... the > > questions is, is the sutta talking about someone make effort or > > conditions. > > > > Ken O > > > ========================== > Well, in any case, I had not asked a question about "who" > makes an effort. It is not a qustion that I would ask, because it contains a presupposition that I don't accept. > The Buddha used conventional speech - as we all do - as you > have just done. k: Yes Buddha used conventionaly speech. But in the sutta I quoted you, it is a clear indication he reject an "one" that goes through, contact, feelings etc. I interpret your earlier email when you quoted a few suttas about arousing of one effort is not consistent with what I quoted. That is my prejudice. Anyway, you said in an earlier mail to another person, each one of us has their own *prejudice* ;-). Ken O 30697 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 Hi Swee Boon, Jeff (& RobK), --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: <...> J:> Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 > > "...then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you > in > terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you > are > neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end > of > dissatisfaction (dukkha)." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html > From: "nidive" <...> SB:> "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be > merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the > sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely > what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. > > "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the > cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be > 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you > will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, > Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. > Just this is the end of suffering." > > > What does 'with that', 'in that' mean? ... Sarah: Interesting. Let me add the Peter Masefield translation with commentary notes on the phrases you ask about at the end, [my asterisks for the phrases you ask about]: “There, Baahiya, you should so train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen,........cognised - so should you, Baahiya, train yourself. When for you, Baahiya, with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen,......cognised, then you, Baahiya, will not be *therewith*. When you, Baahiya, are not *therewith*, then you, Baahiya, will not be *therein*. When you , Baahiya, are not *therein*, then you, Baahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both - this alone is the end of dukkha”. ..... Udana 1:10 commentary to just the last part. [Square brackets give my insertions taken from PM's notes]: “>Therewith (tena)<: with that seen and so on, or alternatively with that lust and so forth that is subject to the seen and so on.[tena di.t.thaadinaa di.t.thaadipa.tibaddhena raagaadinaa vaa]. This is what is said: “Baahiya, at such time as, or alternatively as a result of that reason by means of which, there will be for you, as you are practising the method spoken of by me, with respect to the seen and so on merely the seen and so forth, through unequivocal awareness as to their own nature [sabhava], at that time, or alternatively as a result of that [tena va] reason, you will not be in concert with that lust and so on [raagaadinaa saha na bhavissasi] that is subject to the seen and so forth, you will not be either excited or blemished or deluded, or alternatively you will not be subject, in concert with the seen and so on, (thereto,) on account of your being one for whom lust and so on are abandoned [pahiinaraagaadikattaa].” >Then you, Baahiya, will not be therein (tato tva.m Baahiya na tattha)<: when, or alternatively since, you will be neither excited with [these refs to ‘with’ refer back to >therewith (tena)< above] that lust [tena raagena vaa ratto], blemished with that anger, nor deluded with that delusion, then, or alternatively therefore, you will not be therein, in that seen and so on, you will not be attached, established, either in that seen or in that heard, sensed, cognised, by way of craving, conceit and (wrong) view thinking “This is mine, this I am, this is for me the self” - to this extent there is indicated, by causing full understanding as to abandoning to reach the summit, the plane of the one in whom the aasavas have been destroyed. >Then you, Baahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both (tato tva.m Baahiya nev’idha na hura.m na ubhayamantarena)<: when you, Baahiya, will not be therein, subject to the seen and so forth, with that lust and so on, then you will be neither in this world nor in the next world, nor also [pi] in both [ubhayattha]. >This alone is the end of dukkha (es’ev’anto dukkhassa)<: for this alone is the end, this the demarcation, limitation [paricchedo pariva.tumabhaavo], of dukkha in the form of the defilements and of dukkha belonging to the cycle......’” ***** S: Swee Boon, hope this helps. Again we see the teaching about right awareness and understanding of namas and rupas leading to the guarding of the sense doors and the eradication of defilements. As RobK suggested, we're reading about the development of satipatthana. I gave more quotes from the commentary in other posts on this wonderful sutta/udana, including one following on from the above quote to dispel any possible interpretation of an intemediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) or self or essence. Jeff, you may like to look at some of them as you like and use this sutta so much: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20797.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24977 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24980 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24983 Further discussion welcome! Metta, Sarah p.s Jeff, I think both Jon and Ken wrote posts to you which you may not have seen. If not, just key in your name in search on escribe and you should find them: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ ============================================ 30698 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Howard, Swee Boon, Jeff and all, In the Buddha's system of mental training the role of serenity is subordinated to that of insight because the latter is the crucial instrument needed to uproot the ignorance at the bottom of samaric bondage. As you say, the attainments possible through serenity meditation were know to Indian contemplatives long before the advent of the Buddha. In the Majjhima Nikaya 26.15 -16 the Buddha states how he mastered the two highest stages of jhana under his early teachers but found that they only led to higher places of rebirth, not to genuine enlightenment. He said: "Thus Alara Kalama, my teacher, placed me, his pupil, on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occurred to me: 'This Dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reappearance in the base of nothingness.' Not being satisfied with that Dhamma, I left it and went away." <<>> "Thus Uddaka Ramaputta, my companion in the holy life, placed me in the position of a teacher and accorded me the highest honour. But it occurred to me: 'This Dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reappearance in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.' Not being satisfied with the Dhamma, I left it and went away." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > You say in the foregoing that "... absorption has these four > characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), > insight into see things as they are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are > the supramundane abilities." This sounds as if you are saying that complete > enlightenment is achievable solely by mastering the jhanas. Were that the case, > then one would sensibly ask what was novel in the Buddha's teaching, inasmuch > as mastering the jhanas was already the quintessence of current yogic > practice circa 500 BCE? > > With metta, > Howard 30699 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > Hello Swee Boon and thank-you so much for pointing out a very good example of > where the confusion in a belief in different "paths" lies. I like the > Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, quite a bit because it is very explicit about the results > of attaining right absorption (sama-samadhi). I can see the confusion lies in > a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however it > is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions are the four results of > the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > > How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice > path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path > which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness > of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness is > absorption and absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a > pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as they > are (vipassana), and knowledge & vision which are the supramundane abilities. > > Secondly how one can know this is true is through attainment. I have found > that without seeking these separate knowledges they have come to me purely as a > consequence of a dedicated practice. And, of course Thanissaro Bhikkhus > article I believe supports the belief that there is only one practice path with > four fruits. > > Excellent work. Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks Hehehe…now, I am really finding this funny. Here you are stating that there is only one path of practice, basically jhana; and over here we have Thanissaro writing that there is only one path of practice, basically vipassana. Maybe you two should get together and make up your minds? ;-)) I think this is a classic example of how people are going to read exactly what they want to read. And they are going to look for details that support their already established point-of-view and skip those details that don't. But really, this is very simple. Go back to the basics: The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path. Of the path, Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness are two different things. The Buddha described them differently, listed them differently, and intended them to be different. Right Mindfulness he defined as Satipatthana; Right Concentration he defined as Jhana. I now firmly believe that they both should be established in one's practice and pursued, just as the Buddha taught. There are no short- cuts. Satipatthana without Jhana is either too weak or mentally disturbing. Jhana without Satipatthana doesn't bring an end to the effluents. But, because they should both be present does that mean that they are the same thing or should be considered the same? No. Let me give another sutta about this issue to show that Jhana and Vipassana are indeed different practices but that they should both be developed (as far as I know, this sutta isn't available online): AN 72 "Tranquility and Insight" These four kinds of persons, O monks, are found existing in the world. What four? Here, monks, a certain person gains internal tranquility of mind but does not gain the higher wisdom of insight into things. (46) Another person gains the higher wisdom of insight into things but does not gain internal tranquility of mind. Another person gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things. And another person gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. Therein, monks, the person who gains internal tranquility of mind but not the higher wisdom of insight into things should approach one who gains the higher wisdom and inquire of him: "How, friend, should formations be seen? How should formations be explored? How should formations be discerned with insight? (47) The other answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "Formations should be seen in such a way; they should be explored in such a way; they should be discerned with insight in such a way." At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility and the higher wisdom of insight into things. Therein, monks, the person who gains the higher wisdom of insight into things but not internal tranquility of mind should approach one who gains internal tranquility and inquire of him: "How, friend, should the mind be steadied? How should the mind be composed? How should the mind be unified? How should the mind be concentrated?" The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "The mind should be steadied in such a way, composed in such a way, unified in such a way, concentrated in such a way." At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. Therein, monks, the person who gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things should approach one who gains both and inquire of him: "How, friend, should the mind be steadied?...How, friend, should formations be seen?..." The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: "The mind should be steadied in such a way…Formations should be seen in such a way…" At a later time this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things. Therein, monks, the person who gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things should establish himself in just these wholesome states and make a further effort for the destruction of the taints. Note 46: AA explains internal tranquility of mind (ajjhattam cetosamatha) as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana), and the higher wisdom of insight into things (abhipannadhammavipassana) as insight knowledge discerning formations (sankharapariggahaka-vipassananana). The latter is called `higher wisdom' and it is insight into the `things' comprised of the five aggregates. Note 47: "Formations" (sakhara) are the conditioned phenomena of the five aggregates: bodily form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. So, Jeff, is this enough proof that there are in fact two different types of practices or are you going to come back and tell me that this sutta doesn't say what it clearly says? ;-)) Metta, James 30700 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Are Arahants noticeably different? Dear Group, If we were to meet an Arahant (setting aside the possibility or otherwise of that happening), would they be recognisably different in actions and re-actions than others? I had this idea that an arahant should be charismatic, warm, lovable, supportive, forgiving, understanding, and compassionate - as well as enlightened and at peace. But - I have been reading 'Great Disciples of the Buddha' by Nyanaponika Thera and Hellmuth Hecker. I loved their chapters on Aananda: Guardian of the Dhamma and Saariputta: The Marshal of the Dhamma, and various other writings about the Great Women Disciples - and I'm now reading about Mahaakassapa: Father of the Sangha ... I find it very hard to understand this arahant's personality (among other things, he seems to have been publicly mean to Aananda and shown a jaundiced view of the Bhikkhunis on a number of occasions). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30701 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:20am Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Dear Christine, I once thought as you thought. It is difficult for lay people to know Arahats. One thing. Could you please clarify the last part of your post? Thanks in advance. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, If we were to meet an Arahant (setting aside the possibility or otherwise of that happening), would they be recognisably different in actions and re-actions than others? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is hard to say that external appearence can much support the possibility. Except The Buddha, any other Arahats carry their habit. This means that if they walk fast they will still have the habit of that walking. When a bottle of spirit is poured out all its content (all defilement ), there still left smell. When a bottle of water is poured out all its content ( all defilement ), there is nothing left. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: ..and I'm now reading about Mahaakassapa: Father of the Sangha ... I find it very hard to understand this arahant's personality (among other things, he seems to have been publicly mean to Aananda and shown a jaundiced view of the Bhikkhunis on a number of occasions). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I am not clear the last sentence. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 30702 From: Philip Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:03am Subject: "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hello All. The "Buddhist Dictionary" passage Jon includes covers the "abandoning" side of the coin, but only hints at "developing" I'm curious to know more about "develop." I've wondered about this word before, because it is often used by Ajaan Chah in "develop the mind" (Or, should I say, Thanissaro Bhikku uses it when translating.) "Develop" sounds so active, even more active than the "cultivate" I usually use when talking about Brahma-Viharas. Jon: > As can be seen from this material, > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. I don't understand this. If possible, could Jon or someone provide a corresponding explanation from that dictionary for "develop," or your own thoughts on the real meaning of the word? I think it's quite important. I think my confusion may lie in the translation. I've noticed that TB's translation of the Dhammapada sometimes contains very active, punchy language that I like but is not found in such an active form in other translations. (I assume he is the translator of the sutta passage below) That could be dangerous for someone like myself who already tends to lean towards the idea of a self which is used with awareness as actor even while being extinguished through one's practice. Thanks, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > Thanks for the sutta quote [see below]. You ask: > "Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta?" > > Not at all. But note that the words of the sutta do not go on to > explain what is meant here by 'abandon' and 'develop' or, to put it > another way, how the 'abandoning' or 'development' in question is to > be accomplished. > > In my view it would be a mistake to assume that these terms are > intended to carry their normal everyday meaning. We need to bring to > bear what is said elsewhere in the Tipitaka, particularly in the > commentary to this sutta (not available in English, unfortunately) to > get a correct picture. This is a good example of what is referred to > in the texts as a 'teaching in brief'. > > As to the sort of thing that might be intended here, Nyanatiloka's > 'Buddhist Dictionary' states that, according to the Patisambhida > Magga , 'abandoning' or 'overcoming' (pahaana) is of 5 kinds: > > "pahána: 'overcoming', abandoning. There are 5 kinds of overcoming: > (1) overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana-pahána), i.e. the > temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances (nú"arana) during the > absorptions, > (2) overcoming by the opposite (tadanga-pahána), > (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahána), > (4) overcoming by tranquillization (patipassaddhi-pahána), > (5) overcoming by escape (nissarana-pahána)." > > I have pasted below the detailed description of each kind of > abandoning given in the entry. As can be seen from this material, > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. > > Jon > > From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' > (1) "Among these, 'overcoming by repression' is the pushing back of > adverse things, such as the 5 mental hindrances (nú"arana), etc., > through this or that mental concentration (samádhi), just as a pot > thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside.... > (2) " 'Overcoming by the opposite' is the overcoming by opposing this > or that thing that is to be overcome, by this or that factor of > knowledge belonging to insight (vipassan?E, just as a lighted lamp > dispels the darkness of the night. In this way, the > personality-belief (sakkáyaditthi) is overcome by determining the > mental and corporeal phenomena ... the view of uncausedness of > existence by investigation into the conditions... the idea of > eternity by contemplation of impermanency ... the idea of happiness > by contemplation of misery.... > (3) "If through the knowledge of the noble path the fetters and other > evil things cannot continue any longer, just like a tree destroyed by > lightning, then such an overcoming is called 'overcoming by > destruction' " (Vis.M. XXII, 110f.). > (4) When, after the disappearing of the fetters at the entrance into > the paths, the fetters, from the moment of fruition (phala) onwards, > are forever extinct and stilled, such overcoming is called the > 'overcoming by tranquillization'. > (5) "The 'overcoming by escape' is identical with the extinction and > Nibbána" > (Pts.M. I. 27). > > --- "Egberdina " wrote: > > Hi Jon and Howard, > ... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-019.html > > > > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what > > is > > unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, > > I > > would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it > > is > > possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what > > is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were > > conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what > > is > > unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is > > conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is > > unskillful.' > > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > > skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I > > would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is > > possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what > > is > > skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive > > to > > harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' > > But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to > > benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" > ... > > > > Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta? > > > 30703 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:10am Subject: Band of Brothers Hi all I was watching the Band of Brothers, the maiming, the killing and the untoll suffering that men suffered during the war. At one point, it seems it was too much for me to bear. I sympathise many of them who die without knowing the dhamma. IMHO what a waste to loss these precious human lives. It reminds me of the fragility of being a human and you do not know when you are going to die. It really touches me that we should consider more dhammas because we dont konw when we are next. It arouse me to be more compassionate to others, to love each other as like our brothers. It makes me think if there isn't Buddha here in the first place, we would have die blindly, without knowing the way to the deathless. I wish they would have know even a little bit of dhamma, it would have been worthwhile being a human, sowing the seed of panna for the benefits for happines for a long time to come or countless lives to come. I hope, in their next life, they would know the dhamma, arouse zeal to tread the path and end their suffering in the samasara. And this I would remember for a long time to come. This reminds me of Buddha last word "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!" So much wisdom yet so hard to penetrate the meaning. Just sharing my thoughts Ken O 30704 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:33am Subject: The strength of Form Hi all Another of sharing of thought. In MN Sutta 115 - The Greater Discourse of Voidness. Buddha "I do not see even a single kind of form, Ananda, from the change and alteration of which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair in one who lusts for it and takes delight in it" MN Sutta 125. The Grade of the Tamed Buddha [Aggivessana, how is it possible that Prince Jayasena, living in the midst of sensual pleasure, enjoying sensual pleasures, being devoured by thoughts of sensual pleasures, being consumed by the fever of sensual pleasure, bent on the search for sensual pleasure, could know, see, or realize which must be known through renunciation, seen through renunciation, attained through renunciation realized through renunciation. That is impossible.] It is so hard to see the anicca, anatta and dukkha of sensual pleasure especially to the alluring and enticing of form. Most of the time without realising that I have been too captivated by them. Such is the dukkha that form creates. Ken O 30705 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 62 Hi Larry, thanks for questions. op 27-02-2004 23:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 62: "Its function is to display intention." > > L: Does "intention" = "meaning"? Can we translate "what do you mean" > into "what is your intention"? Is the meaning of a concept an intention? N: In Pali: adhippaaya: 1. intention, wish, desire. 2. sense, meaning, conclusion, inference. It includes all those things. Certainly also meaning in conventional language, anything you want to convey by speech. Don't we do this all the time? But we have an idea of my voice, my speech. Only rupas knocking together and cittas that motivate speech. Phenomena rolling on by conditions. And also intention, yes, cetana that may be kusala or akusala. Akusala kamma is performed by wrong speech, slandering, etc. Before we realize it, the harsh word jumped out of our mouth! So it seems. Whatan amount of evil is done by speech. The Buddha compared the tongue to an ax. And the speaker cuts himself by it. He will bear the consequences. L: 62: "Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration > (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth element that causes > that occurrence in speech utterance which mode and alteration are a > condition for the knocking together of clung-to matter." > > L: Can we say that the air that passes over the vocal cords is earth > element, not air element? The apparent movement is air element. N: It is different. Earth element knocks together with earth element. This produces the rupa that is sound in speech. We call it vocal cords in conventional languige, but actually, there is concussion of hardness with hardness. We can call it sound base. Thus, in bodily intimation the element of wind (air) plays its specific part, and in verbal intimation the element of earth plays its specific part. As to concussion of earth with earth making a sound: this also happens outside the body. (rupas out there). And also noise inside the body: the sound nonad: the pure octad + sound. This does not originate from citta. L: "the knocking together of clung-to matter" Is there any special significance to this term "clung-to matter"? Is it more clung-to than other matter? N: clung-to or grasped at: upaadi.n.na: this is used all over in the Dhammasangani, and it refers in particular to rupa produced by kamma. Eyesense, etc are clung to, produced by kamma. Co to Abh. Sangaha, Exposition T.A, (p. 233): and also (p. 226): Note: also the lips play their part in articulation. Many conditions involved. But clung to is also used in a wider sense: all rupas of the body. It can also refer to nama. What we call vocal cord are rupas produced by kamma. I see here Expositor: I, p. 115 (no 87): Grasped at by kamma is a translation of upadi.n.na. But when we say soundbase, there are many groups of rupa involved, also rupas produced by nutrition and temperature. L: Also, it seems there are many intentions involved in intimation. One is > a purely functional one of making the right gesture or sound. This is > most apparent when speaking a foreign language or with loss of memory. N: See above. Any speaking is done by verbal intimation, also a foreign language, why not? it is natural speech in daily life. We try to convey a meaning. Loss of memory? My father has this, but he still speaks, having the intention to convey a meaning, though it is at times confused to us. If someone utters a sound with difficulty, this is because the great Elements that are produced by temperature and nutrition are unsuitable. These have to support the groups produced by kamma that we call soundbase. Hence there are not the right conditions for uttering sound in a natural way and with ease. Well, aging is a cause for this. L: This intention is distinct from the intention that may be involved in > the "message" of the intimation and the "agenda" behind the message. Are > all of these intentions included in the intimation scenario? N: Yes. Nina. P.S. I am looking at the Pali and need some time to translate and looking at the note which is also part of the Tiika. 30706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Hi Howard, Kom, James, op 26-02-2004 22:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Thank you Nina for taking the time and making the effort to give such > a detailed reply. Very kind of you. N: Thanks, but behind your kind words I still feel doubt lingering! So, I asked Lodewijk. Our dialogue: L: You and other people often give the *impression* that listening alone is sufficient, but there is more. All kinds of good deeds should be performed. N: People will say, also other religions teach this. L: So what? N: But by the Dhamma we learn to have less clinging to the self. L: What we should do is all included in the Perfections. The Buddha practised all kinds of good deeds, such as dana: he gave away his eyes. He practised metta, all kinds of good deeds. N: And at the same time he developed right understanding of realities. L: We should not exclude any kind of kusala. Lest there be a misunderstanding you should explain that also samatha is included. And that samatha does not necessarily has to be practised to the degree of jhana. N: Yes, there are four meditations for daily life: Recollection of the Buddha, Metta, Loathsomeness of the Body and Death. I am a layperson, and I find that these Recollections can arise naturally in my life. When I am with my father, I do not find it difficult to inwardly pay respect to the Buddha, or, when I send or get my Email. I do not expect anything from such moments of samatha, and I do not think of creating conditions for vipassana, or that I *have* to do this. But when such moments arise they can sometimes remind me of characteristics of nama and rupa. But, not yet a clear distinction between them. L: You should also explain that A. Sujin is not against jhana, but that she explains that we should not underestimate its difficulty, especially in this time, when we are further away from the Buddha's time. And that she stresses that the citta which practises samatha should be discerned. N: Yes, this is so important. We had so many mails about this subject and I do not like to argue so much about this subject. L: Vipassana is for daily life, it is not sitting, slow walking, no need to go to vipassana centers. ***** This was our dialogue. Thus, not only listening. Also: carefully discriminating the different cittas arising in daily life, and beginning to be aware of nama and rupa in daily life. Yes, in the midst of daily life, when we do our chores, go shopping, and perform all kinds of kusala, the perfections. And also: when akusala cittas arise: not pushing them away, but learning their characteristics. I agree with James, that moments of samatha in daily life is mini, a mere nothing, especially compared to the mass of akusala cittas. Lobha and mana easily arising in between. But it is against my character to sit for a long time and force myself to meditation. Then also akusala would come in: aversion, or when there is a long time of meditation: lobha or conceit. For me every thing should arise naturally. I considered: Satipatthana is the greatest respect to the Buddha. Satipatthana does not obstruct what we are doing, cittas are so fast. I wish Kom could add something about listening. He spoke wise words to me, saying that just reading and studying is not enough, and that he found that listening to tapes did make a difference. He has a very busy daily life. Our life is study with action. I said to Lodewijk, this is similar to the Benedictan: ora et labora. They are working and meditating (well, take ora not as praying but meditating, that is what it is). Lodewijk: Not: ora sive (or) labora, but ora *et* labora, meditate and work. This is only a comparison. Nina. P.S. to James: I have no problem with the article you quoted. The arahat monks who are endowed with jhana and supernatural powers deserve our highest respect. This is in the suttas! 30707 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: Another Jhana Attack!!!! Hi James, > I think you are downplaying the importance of jhana far too much. > Consider this information: ... No doubt, the Buddha places arahats who are released both ways in higher regard than arahats who are released through wisdom. I have no doubt about this point. http://www.bps. lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/070-kitagiri-e1. htm Bhikkhus, there are seven persons evident in the world: What seven: those released both ways, released through wisdom, those with body witness, those come to righteousness of view, those released in faith, those living according to the Teaching, and those living according to faith. Bhikkhus, who is released both ways: Here bhikkhus, a certain person experiences with the body those immaterial attainments and also with wisdom sees the destruction of desires. To such a one is said released both ways. Bhikkhus, to such ones, I do not say abide diligently. What is the reason: They have done it diligently and it is impossible that they be negligent. Bhikkhus, who is released through wisdom? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not experience those immaterial attainments with the body, seeing with wisdom his desires are destroyed. To this one is said, released through wisdom. Bhikkhus, to such a one too I do not say, abide diligently. What is the reason: They have done it diligently and it is impossible that they be negligent. Regards, Swee Boon 30708 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, James (and Jeff) - I basically agree with all you say in the following, James. I would just add that there are approaches to meditating - mindfulness of the breath is one, mindfulness of bodily sensations another, and Ch'an silent illumination a third, I believe - that can lead to in-tandem development of samatha and vipasssana. These can lead to the jhanas in the traditional fully absorbed sense, or to investigation of dhammas within access concentration, or to a kind of jhana in which mindfulness and clarity are so powerfully strong that investigation of dhammas can be intermixed with the jhanic calm. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/28/04 2:04:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Jeff, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > >Hello Swee Boon and thank-you so much for pointing out a very good > example of > >where the confusion in a belief in different "paths" lies. I like > the > >Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, quite a bit because it is very explicit > about the results > >of attaining right absorption (sama-samadhi). I can see the > confusion lies in > >a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, > however it > >is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions are the four > results of > >the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > > > >How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same > practice > >path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single > practice path > >which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is > mindfulness > >of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right > mindfulness is > >absorption and absorption has these four characteristics, > mindfulness (sati), a > >pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see > things as they > >are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are the supramundane > abilities. > > > >Secondly how one can know this is true is through attainment. I > have found > >that without seeking these separate knowledges they have come to me > purely as a > >consequence of a dedicated practice. And, of course Thanissaro > Bhikkhus > >article I believe supports the belief that there is only one > practice path with > >four fruits. > > > >Excellent work. Best regards, > > > >Jeff Brooks > > Hehehe…now, I am really finding this funny. Here you are stating > that there is only one path of practice, basically jhana; and over > here we have Thanissaro writing that there is only one path of > practice, basically vipassana. Maybe you two should get together and > make up your minds? ;-)) > > I think this is a classic example of how people are going to read > exactly what they want to read. > > So, Jeff, is this enough proof that there are in fact two different > types of practices or are you going to come back and tell me that > this sutta doesn't say what it clearly says? ;-)) > > Metta, James > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30710 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:28am Subject: White & Red Lotus Recluse Sutta Hi Group, http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas06.htm How, monks, is a person a white lotus recluse (samanapundaríka)? Here, monks, with the destruction of the cankers a monk here and now enters and dwells in the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, having realised it for himself with direct knowledge. Yet he does not dwell experiencing the eight deliverances with his body. Thus, monks, a person is a white lotus recluse. And how, monks, is a person a red lotus recluse (samanapaduma)? Here monks, with the destruction of the cankers a monk here and now enters and dwells in the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, having realised it for himself with direct knowledge. And he dwells experiencing the eight deliverances with his body. Thus, monks, a person is a red lotus recluse. [A.ii,87] Is there an online version of this "Putta Sutta"? Regards, Swee Boon 30711 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 Hi Jeff, > "...then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in > terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are > neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of > dissatisfaction (dukkha)." Thanks very much. I find this translation much easier to understand. Regards, Swee Boon 30712 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Jeff) - > > I basically agree with all you say in the following, James. I would > just add that there are approaches to meditating - mindfulness of the breath is > one, mindfulness of bodily sensations another, and Ch'an silent illumination a > third, I believe - that can lead to in-tandem development of samatha and > vipasssana. These can lead to the jhanas in the traditional fully absorbed sense, > or to investigation of dhammas within access concentration, or to a kind of > jhana in which mindfulness and clarity are so powerfully strong that > investigation of dhammas can be intermixed with the jhanic calm. > > With metta, > Howard That could be; I don't know. I think that whenever jhana and vipassana are `developed' in tandem that means that the meditator will switch from one to the other throughout the practice. The point is that there is nothing especially calming about seeing formations arise and pass away. That isn't calming. It is only calming to focus the mind on a single object. When that calm is established, then the true nature of the object can be investigated with calm or the five aggregates can be investigated with calm. I don't think that they both can be developed at the same time, but if you have been able to do that please teach me how!! ;-) Metta, James 30713 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta Udana I.10 Hi Sarah, Thanks very much for your kind posting! Regards, Swee Boon 30714 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] The strength of Form Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/28/04 6:34:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > In MN Sutta 115 - The Greater Discourse of Voidness. > Buddha "I do not see even a single kind of form, Ananda, from the > change and alteration of which there would not arise sorrow, > lamentation, pain, grief and despair in one who lusts for it and > takes delight in it" > ========================= Just as an aside, Ken, I note something in this quote that relates to a matter discussed from time to time on this and other lists - namely whether the khandhas are, in themselves, causative of dissatisfaction and grief, or only khandhas afflicted by clinging are so causative. My position is the latter, and I think that the words "in one who lusts for it and takes delight in it" constitute support for that position. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30715 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, Kom, James, > op 26-02-2004 22:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: "L: You should also explain that A. Sujin is not against jhana, but that she explains that we should not underestimate its difficulty, especially in this time, when we are further away from the Buddha's time. And that she stresses that the citta which practises samatha should be discerned. N: Yes, this is so important. We had so many mails about this subject and I do not like to argue so much about this subject." James: I'm sorry Nina if I have been causing you or anyone else distress (I sense that I have been causing a lot of distress… especially my posts about Thanissaro :-(( but this is an important matter. We are all faced with the questions: How are we supposed to practice? What are we supposed to do? What are the right conditions? What is possible in terms of setting up the right conditions? What is a monk/nun capable of accomplishing as opposed to a householder? What is anyone capable of accomplishing in modern times as opposed to the Buddha's time? These are all questions that swirl around in the minds of those who hear and feel a calling to a more spiritual life. One person will say one thing and get a group of people who agree; then someone else will say something different and then a different group of people will agree. These groups will clash and fight over these viewpoints because, even though the members are spiritually-minded, they are not released from the taints. Some members will get disgusted with this unspiritual display and leave in disgust-but they will soon learn that it isn't any better anywhere else, and eventually return to find the answer. So, what is the answer? What is the solution? What is the refuge? The refuge is the Triple Gem: The Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. The refuge isn't K. Sujin, it isn't me, it isn't you, it isn't Lodewijk or Sarah. The refuge is only the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. That's it. So, what did the Buddha say about this subject? What is the Buddha's dhamma? Did he say that householders can't practice jhana? Did he say that householders shouldn't practice jhana? No. Here is what he said: AN 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion": Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to them: "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: "How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?" (33) Thus should you train yourselves." When he heard this, the Venerable Sariputta said to the Blessed One: "It is wonderful, Lord! It is marvelous, Lord! How well spoken was that statement of the Blessed One. Whenever, Lord, a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1) Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (3) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion: (4) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion; (5) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the wholesome does not exist on that occasion. Whenever a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him." "Good, good, Sariputta!" (The Buddha then repeats the Venerable Sariputta's words in full.) Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas. So, Nina, it seems to me that K. Sujin is mistaken when she teaches householders that they can't and shouldn't practice jhana. She is pandering to what they want to hear, removing them from personal responsibility, and setting up an atmosphere leading to failure. Metta, James 30716 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Hi, Nina (and Kom, James, and especially Lodewijk) - In a message dated 2/28/04 9:17:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, Kom, James, > op 26-02-2004 22:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Thank you Nina for taking the time and making the effort to give such > >a detailed reply. Very kind of you. > N: Thanks, but behind your kind words I still feel doubt lingering! So, I > asked Lodewijk. > Our dialogue: > L: You and other people often give the *impression* that listening alone is > sufficient, but there is more. All kinds of good deeds should be performed. > N: People will say, also other religions teach this. > L: So what? > N: But by the Dhamma we learn to have less clinging to the self. > L: What we should do is all included in the Perfections. The Buddha > practised all kinds of good deeds, such as dana: he gave away his eyes. He > practised metta, all kinds of good deeds. > N: And at the same time he developed right understanding of realities. > L: We should not exclude any kind of kusala. Lest there be a > misunderstanding you should explain that also samatha is included. > And that samatha does not necessarily has to be practised to the degree of > jhana. > N: Yes, there are four meditations for daily life: Recollection of the > Buddha, Metta, Loathsomeness of the Body and Death. I am a layperson, and I > find that these Recollections can arise naturally in my life. When I am with > my father, I do not find it difficult to inwardly pay respect to the Buddha, > or, when I send or get my Email. I do not expect anything from such moments > of samatha, and I do not think of creating conditions for vipassana, or that > I *have* to do this. But when such moments arise they can sometimes remind > me of characteristics of nama and rupa. But, not yet a clear distinction > between them. > L: You should also explain that A. Sujin is not against jhana, but that she > explains that we should not underestimate its difficulty, especially in this > time, when we are further away from the Buddha's time. And that she stresses > that the citta which practises samatha should be discerned. > N: Yes, this is so important. We had so many mails about this subject and I > do not like to argue so much about this subject. > L: Vipassana is for daily life, it is not sitting, slow walking, no need to > go to vipassana centers. > ***** > This was our dialogue. Thus, not only listening. Also: carefully > discriminating the different cittas arising in daily life, and beginning to > be aware of nama and rupa in daily life. Yes, in the midst of daily life, > when we do our chores, go shopping, and perform all kinds of kusala, the > perfections. And also: when akusala cittas arise: not pushing them away, but > learning their characteristics. > I agree with James, that moments of samatha in daily life is mini, a mere > nothing, especially compared to the mass of akusala cittas. Lobha and mana > easily arising in between. But it is against my character to sit for a long > time and force myself to meditation. Then also akusala would come in: > aversion, or when there is a long time of meditation: lobha or conceit. For > me every thing should arise naturally. I considered: Satipatthana is the > greatest respect to the Buddha. Satipatthana does not obstruct what we are > doing, cittas are so fast. > I wish Kom could add something about listening. He spoke wise words to me, > saying that just reading and studying is not enough, and that he found that > listening to tapes did make a difference. He has a very busy daily life. > Our life is study with action. > I said to Lodewijk, this is similar to the Benedictan: ora et labora. They > are working and meditating (well, take ora not as praying but meditating, > that is what it is). > Lodewijk: Not: ora sive (or) labora, but ora *et* labora, meditate and work. > This is only a comparison. > Nina. > P.S. to James: > I have no problem with the article you quoted. The arahat monks who are > endowed with jhana and supernatural powers deserve our highest respect. This > is in the suttas! > ============================ Thank you very much for this follow-up, Nina. So, good, not just listening! And three cheers for Lodewijk!! My only reservation: With regard to "Vipassana is for daily life, it is not sitting, slow walking, no need to go to vipassana centers," I agree that vipassana bhavana is for daily life, but it is also very much for calmed, restricted contexts such as sitting meditation, (slow) walking meditation, and the intensive practice to be found at retreats. If one engages in some of these, experience will show their great worth. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30717 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, James - In a message dated 2/28/04 11:28:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > That could be; I don't know. I think that whenever jhana and > vipassana are `developed' in tandem that means that the meditator > will switch from one to the other throughout the practice. The point > is that there is nothing especially calming about seeing formations > arise and pass away. That isn't calming. It is only calming to > focus the mind on a single object. When that calm is established, > then the true nature of the object can be investigated with calm or > the five aggregates can be investigated with calm. I don't think > that they both can be developed at the same time, but if you have > been able to do that please teach me how!! ;-) > > ========================== I forget whether you ever attended a 10-day Goenka retreat. If not, it is a wonderful thing to do. It was my unmistakable experience there that calm does not require focus on a single object. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30718 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo Hi Philip, Thanks, useful you quoted from UP, it reminds me too. And it is all about what we are discussing now, listening, only that? Or more? What else, what else. I like this: > something we should do, different from what we are doing right >> now. It seems so much just part of life, the study, the >> considering, the moments when there is direct awareness; It all >> goes together, and each assists the development of the others.> This is how I feel, and I tried to explain it to Howard. It seems that we are lazy, doing nothing, waiting for understanding to develop. If we would be passive listeners, yes, than we would be lazy. It is by considering again and again that panna develops over the long years. Nina op 28-02-2004 01:23 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: >> Dear Venerable Dhammapiyo, >> Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. >> I find it not easy to talk about the practice as if it were >> something we should do, different from what we are doing right >> now. It seems so much just part of life, the study, the >> considering, the moments when there is direct awareness; It all >> goes together, and each assists the development of the others. >> Writing on the internet there are many reminders of the nature >> of realities, or reading the newspaper, the death and sorrow we >> read about remind me of the paticcasamupada (dependent >> origination) and how actually death is happening right now : the >> momentary death of a moment of seeing which falls away to be >> replaced by some other conditioned dhamma. 30719 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava or 'essence'- Ven. Dhammapiyo Dear Robert, I quite agree: or thinking, or dosa, or painful feeling or pleasant feeling....> As to sati: it depends, sometimes I mind, but now this becomes less, I tend to think less about sati. It is better that way, lobha hinders. Nina. op 28-02-2004 03:45 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Hi Philip, > Glad you liked my little stroll in the woods. Please bring up old > posts anytime. > You wonder if my understanding changed since then?: only that I am > even more confident that insight is a matter of seeing what is here > and now, not trying to change things to be how we think they should > be. > 30720 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Band of Brothers Dear Ken Ong,and Christine, thank you for sharing your thoughts! We never consider enough dhammas, true. More compassion and love for others, it never is enough, as A. Sujin says. She acts as she speaks. Over the years I have seen her example. I meant to say, Christine, I liked very much what you eplained about the oncoming death re: we think we have time... This is a mediation on death indeed for daily life, at any time! Nina. op 28-02-2004 12:10 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > It really > touches me that we should consider more dhammas because we dont konw > when we are next. It arouse me to be more compassionate to others, > to love each other as like our brothers. It makes me think if there > isn't Buddha here in the first place, we would have die blindly, > without knowing the way to the deathless. 30721 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] The strength of Form Dear Ken O, You know that moment of renunciation arises when there is a moment of satipatthana: seeing lobha as just a conditioned nama, and you renounce it for that short moment. You attach less importance to it. You say:It is so hard to see the anicca, anatta and dukkha of sensual pleasure. We cannot see these three characteristics before realizing nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Only during the later stages of insight can those be realized. Nina. op 28-02-2004 12:33 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > being consumed by the > fever of sensual pleasure, bent on the search for sensual pleasure, > could know, see, or realize which must be known through renunciation, > seen through renunciation, attained through renunciation realized > through renunciation. That is impossible.] > > It is so hard to see the anicca, anatta and dukkha of sensual > pleasure especially to the alluring and enticing of form. Most of > the time without realising that I have been too captivated by them. > Such is the dukkha that form creates. 30722 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:22am Subject: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Dhamma Friends, While we are searching for necessary wisdom, that is trying to develop higher wisdom, we need good messages. On the other hand, we need to be careful not to be stuck in wrong view and wrong concept. The Buddha never preached right absorption is Samma-Samadhi. Absorption is not necessary to achieve Samma-Samadhi. If someone is in absorption, he will not be able to see impermanence, unsatifactoriness, and selflessness. So absorption cannot be Samma-Samadhi. Absorption is not supramundane consciousness. The Buddha or The historic Buddha did not preach absorption is supremundane consciousness. Regarding consciousness there are 89 states of consciousness. Out of 89 cittas, 8 cittas that is 4 magga cittas and 4 phala cittas are supramundane consciousness. The Buddha preached these 8 cittas are supramundane consciousness. So there are 81 mundane consciousness. Out of 81 mundane consciousness, 54 cittas are kamacittas. So there are 27 jhana cittas left. All these 27 jhanacittas are mundane consciousness. 27 can be divided into 3 group. 9 Kiriyacittas which are jhanacittas of Arahats. 9 Jhana Rupavipka and Arupavipakacitta are resultant cittas of rupa brahmas and arupa brahmas. There left 9 Jhanacittas. These can be achieved by human. But they have to be born with tihetuka or triple-rooted patisandhicitta. Otherwise there will never be Jhanacitta in this very life. 9 Jhanacittas are 1. 1st Jhana rupakusalacitta 2. 2nd Jhana rupakusalacitta 3. 3rd Jhana rupakusalacitta 4. 4th Jhana rupakusalacitta 5. 5th Jhana rupakusalacitta 6. Akasanancayatana arupakusalacitta 7. Vinnanancayatana arupakusalacitta 8. Akincinnayatana arupakusalacitta 9. N'evasannanasannayatana arupakusalacitta All these 9 cittas are mundane consciousness. They are not lokuttaracitta. When absorbed, Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta cannot be seen. See in case of Baka Brahama who attacked The Buddha with Atta Vada. Jhanacittas or absorption are mundane consciousness. 1st Jhana has 5 jhanic factors. They are cetasika 1st Jhana_vitakka 2.vicara 3.piti 4.sukha vedana 5. ekaggata 2nd Jhana _vicara,piti, sukha vedana,ekaggata 3rd Jhana_piti, sukha vedana, ekaggata 4th Jhana_sukha vedana, ekaggata 5th Jhana_upekkha vedana , ekaggata 1st Arupa Jhana_upekkha vedana, ekaggata 2nd Arupa Jhana_upekkha vedana, ekaggata 3rd Arupa Jhana_upekkha vedana, ekaggata 4th Arupa Jhana_upekkha vedana, ekaggata There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one of 7 factors of enlightenment. When these are not clear then the Path NEP that is Noble Eightfold Path will not be understood. I think the problem is misunderstanding of The Buddha language Pali. When Suttas are completely translated into other languages without any Pali words then deviation starts. Vitakka is applied thought or initial application. For example right now you ( the reader ) note the touch of air at your nostril. Now you have noted. That touch-consciousness is associated with vitakka. It is initial application or applied thought. It is not applied concentration. Vitakka is not concentration. Should you need any assistence please contact the following e-mail address. May all western Buddhists be free from contamination with wrong view and wrong concept. With Unlimited and Ananta Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30723 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 0:33pm Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hey Howard, Howard: I forget whether you ever attended a 10-day Goenka retreat. If not, it is a wonderful thing to do. It was my unmistakable experience there that calm does not require focus on a single object. James: Oh gosh, now do I have to pull out and flash my spiritual credentials? ;-) Sorry, no can do, my wallet was stolen here in Cairo. ;-)). Howard, this really doesn't answer my question. Are you saying that the only way to have calmness with vipassana is to attend a Goenka meditation retreat? Well, I might as well take up permanent residency at the Goenka Center! Maybe they have an opening for a bathroom attendant? ;-)) Seriously, one must be able to arouse calmness and tranquility at will, shortly after beginning the practice, no matter the location or circumstance, or there is no point. Sure, outside circumstances can generate calmness but why attend a Goenka retreat for that?? Might as well go to the Bahamas!!! ;-)) (Note: Though I do admire the teachings, techniques, and retreats of Goenka, I think that they are beneficial only for the beginner. If one stays too long in the `Goenka Technique', stagnation and dullness are bound to manifest. Moreover, his entire system doesn't encourage individual exploration and self-sufficient- ness. It is somewhat a `cookie-cutter' spirituality.) So, anyway, I ask again, without the outside prop of a Goenka Meditation Retreat, how is one supposed to generate calm and tranquility from the developing of insight into suffering and stress?? ;-)) (Am I the only one who recognizes the irony of such a goal?) Metta, James 30724 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 0:48pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi, Christine, I think the behaviour of the arahants is still going to be influenced by their past habits (vaasanaa?) so what might seem wrong to me wouldn't really be. Only a (Sammaasam?) Buddha eradicates these kinds of behaviour. peace, connie 30725 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 0:51pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Christine and Connie (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi, Christine, > I think the behaviour of the arahants is still going to be influenced by > their past habits (vaasanaa?) so what might seem wrong to me wouldn't > really be. Only a (Sammaasam?) Buddha eradicates these kinds of > behaviour. > peace, > connie Hi Connie!! (BTW, I love the picture of you in the tree! It is really cool. ;-)). Connie, I agree with you. I have no idea what the Pali means that you are using, but I think I agree. ;-)) Christine, I would recommend that you check out the sutta AN 115 "Five Routes of Escape" where the Buddha described how the aspiring arahant is supposed to eliminate the remaining traces of the five defilements before attaining the final goal of liberation. I would guess that if one doesn't do these procedures before the accomplishment of liberation it wouldn't be possible to go back and do them since all actions of the arahant wouldn't generate kamma??? Not entirely sure about that since it involves `underlying tendencies'. Maybe Nina could speak to this? Metta, James 30726 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, James - In a message dated 2/28/04 3:36:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hey Howard, > > Howard: I forget whether you ever attended a 10-day Goenka retreat. > If not, it is a wonderful thing to do. It was my unmistakable > experience there that calm does not require focus on a single object. > > James: Oh gosh, now do I have to pull out and flash my spiritual > credentials? ;-) Sorry, no can do, my wallet was stolen here in > Cairo. ;-)). Howard, this really doesn't answer my question. Are > you saying that the only way to have calmness with vipassana is to > attend a Goenka meditation retreat? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of *course* I'm not saying that. I don't know why you would think so. I'm just pointing to a context in which the point became clear to me. Actually, whenever I meditate in that fashion, or in a choiceless-awareness fashion, not focussing on "one thing", but non-selectively on whatever arises, I find that great calm arises - and I don't need to be at a retreat for that. (I was merely replying to your words "The point is that there is nothing especially calming about seeing formations arise and pass away. That isn't calming. It is only calming to focus the mind on a single object.") ---------------------------------------------------------- Well, I might as well take up > > permanent residency at the Goenka Center! Maybe they have an opening > for a bathroom attendant? ;-)) > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As you wish! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, one must be able to arouse > > calmness and tranquility at will, shortly after beginning the > practice, no matter the location or circumstance, or there is no > point. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: No disagreement here. --------------------------------------------------- Sure, outside circumstances can generate calmness but why > > attend a Goenka retreat for that?? Might as well go to the > Bahamas!!! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: It wasn't a matter of "outside circumstances". It was a matter of intensive practice. (And it was my first experience with such intensive meditation practice.) But being at a retreat was not my point. It happens that I first realized there that calm can arise while attending non-selectively to whatever arises, rather than to a fixed meditation object. However, that observation has become a regular and common one for me since then, and that was years ago. ----------------------------------------------------- > (Note: Though I do admire the teachings, techniques, > and retreats of Goenka, I think that they are beneficial only for the > beginner. If one stays too long in the `Goenka Technique', > stagnation and dullness are bound to manifest. Moreover, his entire > system doesn't encourage individual exploration and self-sufficient- > ness. It is somewhat a `cookie-cutter' spirituality.) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I just don't know. I attended only one Goenka retreat, years ago. Since then I've done considerable "experimentation," recently adopting the silent illumination style of Ch'an meditation that I did "naturally" as a child. I find it lovely in many ways. ------------------------------------------------------ > > So, anyway, I ask again, without the outside prop of a Goenka > Meditation Retreat, how is one supposed to generate calm and > tranquility from the developing of insight into suffering and > stress?? ;-)) (Am I the only one who recognizes the irony of such a > goal?) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I can't tell you *why* that happens, but I can tell you *that* it happens. Of course, during formal sessions, a layer of calm develops early on. But I find that even when not "in meditation", awareness of things as they are leads away from stress. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, James > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30727 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Howard, Howard: Well, of *course* I'm not saying that. I don't know why you would think so. I'm just pointing to a context in which the point became clear to me. James: I am just playing with you, Howard. Don't take me so seriously!! ;-)) Howard: Well, I just don't know. I attended only one Goenka retreat, years ago. Since then I've done considerable "experimentation," recently adopting the silent illumination style of Ch'an meditation that I did "naturally" as a child. I find it lovely in many ways. James: Good, I am just recommending that no one stick to the Goenka Technique forever. It is limiting in a lot of ways. I won't go into that now since I have already done my share of tearing down icons lately! ;-)) Howard: I can't tell you *why* that happens, but I can tell you *that* it happens. James: Okay, then perhaps you are bound to be a pacekka-buddha. You can't help me. NEXT!! Hehehe… ;-)) Howard, I am not doubting or questioning your experience but if you cannot tell me how you achieve it, it is worthless to me. You can't expect me to be like you. Also, just wait and practice more, your calm may not last forever. Over the years I have had a lot of calm also, followed by distress, followed by calm, etc.…like going down through the different layers of the Earth. You may finally reach a point where it is just too darn hot to go forward anymore! If you do, don't hesitate to call me… but by then Jeff and I may be skipping around in our Jhana paradise too much to care! LOL! Metta, Me 30728 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi, James - In a message dated 2/28/04 4:22:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Also, just wait and practice more, your calm may not last forever. > Over the years I have had a lot of calm also, followed by distress, > followed by calm, etc.…like going down through the different layers > of the Earth. ========================= I certainly don't have perfect and consistent calm - far from it. I get angry at times, though not often and never powerfully or with any duration to it. Worry does arise from time to time, and sometimes fear, and often desire of one sort or another. But overall, much calm has come to me over the years as a result of Dhamma practice, some insight, and also a growing love for "sentient beings" that is an enormous joy to me. I don't know "where I am" on the path of practice, and it really doesn't matter all that much. All that matters to me in that regard is having gotten to the point of having tremendous confidence that this Dhamma of the Buddha's is the real thing. I am enormously grateful for it and enormously grateful to him - and for good friends in the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30729 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:41am Subject: The Seven factors of Enlightenment I believe I would not be wrong in saying that in Buddhism the Seven factors of Enlightenment are typically seen as the means or conditions of enlightenment (nibbana/nirvana). The question really is how does one cultivate them? From reading the suttas on meditation in the Pali canon it seems clear that the seven factors of enlightenment emerge as a consequence of the practice of mindfulness (sati). 1) Wisdom (panna/prajna) is often spoken of as cultivated through study and reflection of the teachings of the Buddha which are recorded in the Sutta/Sutra Pitaka, and the giving rise to insight (vipassana/vipashana). It is the insight component that is the abstract quality of wisdom (panna/prajna) that requires a contemplative practice to cultivate. I believe insight (vipassana/vipashana) is too often interpreted as an intellectual activity in which one reflects upon the "three marks" which are the inherent dissatisfaction (dukkha) of sensory objects, because they are impermanent (anicca), and we thus cling to them through self identification and objectification (anatta). But, since there is no evidence in the suttas (sutras) that the historic Buddha taught a meditation technique called "vipassana" and that vipassana means 'insight,' then I believe it is clear that insight (vipassana) is an attainment acquired through the contemplative practice regimen the Buddha taught, which was mindfulness (Sati). 2) Energy (viriya) literally means virility, and it is often interpreted as 'energy' or 'enthusiasm' for the practice. However, since various charismatic phenomena are characteristic of almost every mystic regardless of their cultural context, and the term currently in use for that range of phenomena is 'kundalini,' then I believe it is reasonable to translate 'viriya' as 'kundalini.' 3) Tranquillity (passaddhi) is a place in which the thought processes of the mind have come to rest, and the subject experiences a peaceful and relaxed state of mind. From the suttas/sutras we know tranquillity (passaddhi) is a prod uct of the third stage of absorption (jhana), and it seems to only be associated with the absorptions, therefore I believe it is reasonable to say absorption (jhana) cannot be avoided for one who seeks tranquillity. 4) Mindfulness (sati) is cultivated through the practice of meditation and concentration techniques. The Buddha described a suite of such techniques and they are recorded in three suttas, the Anapanasati sutta, the Satipatthana sutta and the Maha-satipatthana sutta, please see below for their URLs. 5) Equanimity (upekkha) is a subjective state or condition in which there is no longer a reaction in the mind of either 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant' to any sensory experience. At this point all sensory phenomena are accepted as is on face value. This state or condition is a product of the 4th stage of material absorption, therefore it seems reasonable to say absorption (jhana) cannot be avoided for one who seeks equanimity. 6) Ecstasy or bliss (piiti) is a state or condition of physical pleasure that is not "born of sense contact," or due to sensory stimulation. This state is typically a product of absorption, therefore it seems reasonable to say absorption (jhana) cannot be avoided for one who seeks bliss or ecstasy. 7) Absorption (samadhi or jhana) is a subjective state or condition in which the cognitive processes are under a relative degree of suspension. Under this condition the six above properties are characteristic manifestations, therefore it seems reasonable to say absorption (jhana) cannot be avoided for one who seeks the seven conditions that support enlightenment. The Seven factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga DN 22.16, n.689, 33.2.3(2): 1) Wisdom panna 2) Energy (kundalini) viriya 3) Tranquillity passaddhi 4) Awareness (mindfulness) sati 5) Equanimity upekkha 6) Ecstasy or bliss (Rapture) piiti 7) Absorption samadhi If you have not read the Buddha's three discourses on meditation (Sati), Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations of them are available online at these URLs: Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html I have rendered a few improvements in the translations of these suttas and they are also available online at the Jhana Support Group at this URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/files/ Best regards, Jeff Brooks 30730 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:52pm Subject: The powerful tendecy Hi all Recently, I realise that latent tendecy is powerful and arise in a person unknowlying. It conditioned much lobha, dosa and moha without one realising it. Tendency that has been condition in the past, will arise when one is not mindful and ardent. It catches one in the stream of samasara world, it swept away one in the flood of fetters. While I woke up this morning, I heard simple words like How are you or good morning, sounds polite may have tendecy involved. It may be attached to cultural values or societal values or value to show one is polite. Even simple reactions like, yah, I agree or I think this way, its good, could be a conditoned arise due to conceit that one think it is right. If it is not dhamma talk, remain silent, is a very powerful precept. It reminds one to look at consider or reflect our consciouness, to say this or to say that. While I was daydreaming in the morning, again, thoughts like I want to watch TV or lets read the newspaper is a condition of lobha. Even when I listening to a car moving sound, there is no pleasant or unpleasant but neutral feeling can be a source of tendecy. One does not aware that a sound which seem harmless to our sound consciouness can be a factor of conditioning of tendency if one does not seen them as anicca, anatta and dukkha,. It seems that too long I did not notice neutral feelings and in fact a lot of neutral feelings like looking at the tree can be the arisen of tendecy of lobha and moha. That is why I think satipatthana is very important, recognising them when it arise in our six senses. I tend to recognize pleasant and unpleasant, but I think lets not forget the neutral feeling that seem harmless can be a source of tendecy. This has been an enligtening experience and I owe it to one of my friend who condition me to see it. Such is a great gain for me and I wish to benefit my friend but I know my friend is not ready for dhamma :-(. Hence I just like to share with you. Keep consider dhamma ;-) Cheers! Ken O 30731 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:53pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Htoo Naing, > The Buddha never preached right absorption is Samma-Samadhi. I would say jhana attainment is one way of getting Samma-Samadhi. But it is not the only way. If it is the only way, why bother about the term 'Samma-Samadhi'; just saying 'Jhana' explicitly would make the job so much easier. > Absorption is not supramundane consciousness. The Buddha or The > historic Buddha did not preach absorption is supremundane > consciousness. Totally agree. To say that jhana is supramundane consciousness is making a mockery of the Buddha's achievements. > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > of 7 factors of enlightenment. Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. Regards, Swee Boon 30732 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:45pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Htoo, and Swee Boon, Thanks for your post Htoo. There are different types of Samma- samadhi: there are the mundane jhanas that are a very high type of kusala and were developed by very wise men before the Buddha. These do not lead out of samsara but if one has mastery over them they can be base for insight. According to the commentaries only the very highest group of arahants had such mastery and these only existed during the first thousand years of the sasana. Now the only path available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not at all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane jhanas. In the Majjhima Nikaaya I. Sallekhasutta.m ""Cunda, there are various views in the world centred around the self and the world, from whatever these views arise, from whatever these views trickle, from whatever these views behave, they are not mine, that is not I, they are not my self, to one who looks at them, as they really are, in this manner with right wisdom, these views get turned out, get dispelled. . Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana . Then it would occur to him, I abide in purity. Cunda, in the dispensation of the noble ones that is not purity, It is called a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of nothingness, would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, purifying should be done thus: Others will be hurters, we will be non-hurters. Others will be with wrong view, we will be with right view. Others will speak wrong words, we will speak right words. . Others will be with wrong knowledge, we will be with right knowledge. Others will be released wrong, we will be rightfully released. Others will bear a grudge, we will have no grudge. . Others will be merciless, we will be merciful. Others will be stuborn, we will not be stuborn. Cunda, just as for the uneven path, there is an alternative even path, for the uneven ford there is an alternative even ford. . For wrong view, the alternate is right view.For wrong thoughts, the alternate is right thoughts. For wrong knowledge, the alternate is right knowledge. For wrong release, the alternate is right release. For holding to views tenaciously, the alternate is giving up views with ease. Cunda, just as merit could rise up stepping down all demerit, in the same manner the hurter could rise up.not hurting. The destroyer of life, could rise up abstaining from it. The taker of what is not given, could rise up abstaining from it. And the one holdling to his views tenaciously could rise up by giving up views easily. .""" RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > The Buddha never preached right absorption is Samma-Samadhi. > > I would say jhana attainment is one way of getting Samma-Samadhi. > But it is not the only way. If it is the only way, why bother > about the term 'Samma-Samadhi'; just saying 'Jhana' explicitly > would make the job so much easier. > > > Absorption is not supramundane consciousness. The Buddha or The > > historic Buddha did not preach absorption is supremundane > > consciousness. > > Totally agree. To say that jhana is supramundane consciousness is > making a mockery of the Buddha's achievements. > > > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > > of 7 factors of enlightenment. > > Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 30733 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:33pm Subject: The Benefits of Jhanas Hi Group, Below I list some of the benefits of jhanas that I know of. If there is anything to add, please do so. 1. As a means of acquiring Right Concentration. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html 2. To obtain a pleasant abiding in the here and now. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html 3. As the foundation for the acquiring of the 5 mundane abhinnas. 4. As the basis for the contemplation of insight leading to the destruction of the effluents, the only supramundane abhinna. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html 5. To attain to the highest meditative state of the cessation of perception & feeling, achievable only by arahats and anagamis who are proficient in all the eight rupa and arupa jhanas. This is also known as the eighth emancipation/deliverance/release, which was demonstrated by the Buddha just before his parinibbana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html Regards, Swee Boon 30734 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Robert, This is a very poor translation of the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8) you have given. Here is a better one: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html Notice the Buddha's final instruction here: "There are these roots of trees, there are empty places. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay, lest you later regret it. 'This is my message to you." Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in regard to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to rationalize whatever we do or don't do. Larry ----------------------- Robert: "Dear Htoo, and Swee Boon, Thanks for your post Htoo. There are different types of Samma- samadhi: there are the mundane jhanas that are a very high type of kusala and were developed by very wise men before the Buddha. These do not lead out of samsara but if one has mastery over them they can be base for insight. According to the commentaries only the very highest group of arahants had such mastery and these only existed during the first thousand years of the sasana. Now the only path available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not at all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane jhanas. In the Majjhima Nikaaya I. Sallekhasutta.m ""Cunda, there are various views in the world centred around the self and the world, from whatever these views arise, from whatever these views trickle, from whatever these views behave, they are not mine, that is not I, they are not my self, to one who looks at them, as they really are, in this manner with right wisdom, these views get turned out, get dispelled. . Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana . Then it would occur to him, I abide in purity. Cunda, in the dispensation of the noble ones that is not purity, It is called a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of nothingness, would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, purifying should be done thus: Others will be hurters, we will be non-hurters. Others will be with wrong view, we will be with right view. Others will speak wrong words, we will speak right words. . Others will be with wrong knowledge, we will be with right knowledge. Others will be released wrong, we will be rightfully released. Others will bear a grudge, we will have no grudge. . Others will be merciless, we will be merciful. Others will be stuborn, we will not be stuborn. Cunda, just as for the uneven path, there is an alternative even path, for the uneven ford there is an alternative even ford. . For wrong view, the alternate is right view.For wrong thoughts, the alternate is right thoughts. For wrong knowledge, the alternate is right knowledge. For wrong release, the alternate is right release. For holding to views tenaciously, the alternate is giving up views with ease. Cunda, just as merit could rise up stepping down all demerit, in the same manner the hurter could rise up.not hurting. The destroyer of life, could rise up abstaining from it. The taker of what is not given, could rise up abstaining from it. And the one holdling to his views tenaciously could rise up by giving up views easily. .""" RobertK" 30735 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Larry, I am no expert on pali, I got the translation off metta.lk.; can you show me where it is wrong. ""Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just > listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in regard > to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to rationalize > whatever we do or don't do. "" Could you clarify this statement. I am prepared to explain any comments I made in my post. If you disagree with them please say which ones and why. Larry, I have been busy lately but it seems whenever I check in many of the posts on dsg have a tone like this. Time for me to move on. I will stay to wrap up this conversation. RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > This is a very poor translation of the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8) you have > given. Here is a better one: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html > 30736 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello Larry, and Rob, Larry, this is a perfectly well accepted translation. It is by Sister Upalavanna, and is posted on many websites. The original source was Metta Net, Sri Lanka, http://www.metta.lk I have seen this sutta on Binh Ansons website. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/008-salleka-sutta-e1.htm Robert is strictly honest and painstakingly careful in his discussions of the Dhamma and your allusions are completely mistaken. Perhaps you are tired or wrote a little hastily? Robert - there are different cultures even within the English speaking nations - and New Zealand and America have different standards of what is discourteous and what is allowable in discussions. It would be a great loss to this group if you should leave, and, selfishly, a loss for me as well, as I learn so much from you - you are responsible for many of us joining dsg in the first place, and I'm sure you've written a high percentage of the Useful Posts. Misunderstandings are just that, and can be cleared away with goodwill. Please reconsider. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Larry, > I am no expert on pali, I got the translation off metta.lk.; > can you show me where it is wrong. > > ""Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just > > listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in > regard > > to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to rationalize > > whatever we do or don't do. "" > > Could you clarify this statement. I am prepared to explain any > comments I made in my post. If you disagree with them please say > which ones and why. Larry, I have been busy lately but it seems > whenever I check in many of the posts on dsg have a tone like this. > Time for me to move on. I will stay to wrap up this conversation. > RobertK > > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > This is a very poor translation of the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8) you > have > > given. Here is a better one: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html > > 30737 From: Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Robert, Please don't leave. I was just reacting to this interminable discussion on jhana which has been going on for years. I was getting tired of both sides of the debate. Plus I really thought this translation was odd. However, you are by far the better judge of translations, so I leave that to you. I sincerely regret if I offended you. Larry 30738 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:07am Subject: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.1, § 2.2 Dear Group, There are 10 fetters (Samyojana) tying beings to the wheel of existence, namely: (1) personality-belief (sakkaaya-ditthi) (2) sceptical doubt (vicikicchaa) (3) clinging to mere rules and ritual (siilabbata-paraamaasa; s.upaadaana) (4) sensuous craving (kaama-raaga) (5) ill-will (vyaapaada) (6) craving for fine-material existence (ruupa-raga) (7) craving for immaterial existence (aruupa-raaga) (8) conceit (mana) (9) restlessess (uddhacca) (10) ignorance (avijjaa) The first five of these are called 'lower fetters' as they tie to the sensuous world. The latter five are called the 'higher fetters' as they tie to the 'higher worlds', i.e. the fine-material and immaterial world. (Nyanatiloka) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered § 2.1. "There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, and ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters." [AN X.13] § 2.2. "There are in this community of monks, monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three Fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening... "There are... monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters and the thinning out of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners. After returning only once to this world they will put an end to stress... "There are... monks who, with the total ending of the first five of the Fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world... "There are... monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis." [MN 118] 30739 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Rob K I thought your original post was a good one, and your comments were spot on. Please stick around! Sarah and I greatly value your contribution to the list. Jon --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Larry, > I am no expert on pali, I got the translation off metta.lk.; > can you show me where it is wrong. > > ""Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just > > listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in > > regard > > to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to > rationalize > > whatever we do or don't do. "" > > Could you clarify this statement. I am prepared to explain any > comments I made in my post. If you disagree with them please say > which ones and why. Larry, I have been busy lately but it seems > whenever I check in many of the posts on dsg have a tone like this. > > Time for me to move on. I will stay to wrap up this conversation. > RobertK 30740 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:47am Subject: SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Dear Group, In the Samyutta Corner - we're up to Chapter VI '6 Brahmasamyutta' Connected Discourses with Brahmaas. Not being familiar with Brahmaas, I checked in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. "brahma-káyika-deva: The 'heavenly beings of the Brahma-world' inhabit the first 3 heavens of the fine-material world, (rúpaloka), corresponding to the 1st absorption (jhána, q.v.). The highest ruler of them is called the Great Brahma (Mahá-Brahmá). With caustic humor he is said (D. 11) to pretend: "I am Brahma, the Great Brahmá, the Most High, the Invincible One, the Omniscient One, the Ruler, the Lord, the Creator, the Maker, the Perfect One, the Preserver, the Controller, the Father of all that was and will be." Cf. deva (II. 1- 3)." There is a faint echo of something here from my Christian past... Could it really be that the God of the theists is the being Brahma suffering from delusion, but eventually to pass away and be reborn in less august circles? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request (excerpt) "Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Uruvelaa on the bank of the river Nera~njaraa at t he foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree just after he had become fully enlightened. Then, while the Blessed One was alone in seclusion, a reflection arose in his mind thus: "This Dhamma that I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in adhesion, takes delight in adhesion, rejoices in adhesion. [363] For such a generation this state is hard to see, that is specific conditionality, dependent origination. And this state too is hard to see, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana. [364] If I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not undersand me, that would be wearisome for me, that would be troublesome." Thereupon these astounding verses, not heard before inthe past, occurred to the Blessed One: "Enough now with trying to teach What I found with so much hardship; This Dhamma is not easily understood By those oppressed by lust and hate. "Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will nevr see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream." As the Blessed One reflected thus, his mind inclined to living at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma." [end of excerpt] note 363: Spk explains aalaya objectively as the five cords of sensual pleasure, called "adhesions" because it is these to which beings adhere; and again, subjectively, as the 108 mental examinations driven by craving, since it is these that adhere to their objects. note 364: Spk: All these terms are synonyms for Nibbaana. For contingent upon that (tam aagamma), all the vacillations of formations become still and calm down; all acquisitions are relinquished; all cravings are destroyed; all lustful defilements fade away; and all suffering ceases. Spk-pt: 'contingent upon that': in dependence upon that, because it is the object condition for the noble path. 30741 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:10am Subject: Reminder Dear All, Thanks to our many regular posters, this is a very active list! For the benefit of all, please keep in mind the list's Guidelines, which can be viewed at the link below, and note particularly the following from them: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B. Posts We welcome any questions or comments, however light-hearted, relating to the Buddha’s teachings as found in the texts of the Theravada tradition (including the Suttanta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and the ancient commentaries). ... C. Good Practice: Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from your own. The following are not welcome on this list: flame messages, messages that use harsh language or sarcasm, messages that are discourteous or show contempt, and messages that are likely to cause personal discord. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your cooperation. Jon and Sarah http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/AJxBQBo8f_jEq7peaOwE-M7G14nkiLACR5r04DOAg7FgrnVPguqrdezEy5dLrO9ysArKuimZUkJiKPs9T21y/dsg%20Guidelines 30742 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:58am Subject: Pointing with the finger at whom ? Dear Nina & friends: When finding 'mistakes' in then ancient scriptures ao: > Then one should examine whether oneself > may have misunderstood any subtle point! That is actually the rule. Not the exception! How we stumble! Clinging to 'own' 'perfect' views! Hehehe ;-) Peoble, including myself, have maybe been too eager when 'critically' rejecting the commentaries 'en bloc'! When pointing the finger at anyone one may advantageously note that 3 fingers actually & always point back at oneself! Unlike the Canon itself, single & minor mistakes can be found in especially the later commentaries, however one should get up quite early & read trice to find & nail them down. The late Ven. Nyanatiloka once remarked that those who were very critical towards the commentaries were so because they sub- consciously desired to rewrite the name & fame of the commentaries themselves but were unable ... : - ] samahita 30743 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: Reminder PS Any comments off-list only, please. --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear All, > > Thanks to our many regular posters, this is a very active list! ... 30744 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:04am Subject: Miss Isaline Blew Horner in Memoriam... From PTS news: Dr Grace Burford (Prescott College, Arizona, USA) is researching the life and work of I.B. Horner in order to write a biography of her. She would appreciate to hear from anyone with relevant information and can be contacted through the PTS. The Pali Text Society 73 Lime Walk Headington Oxford OX3 7AD Tel: (01865) 742125 Fax: +44 1865 750 079 (mark: For Pali Text Society Email: pts@p... Web site: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk 30745 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:13am Subject: [dsg] for RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob K > > I thought your original post was a good one, and your comments were > spot on. Please stick around! Sarah and I greatly value your > contribution to the list. > > Jon > Dear RobK, I agree with Jon here. The way I use dsg is to skim thro the messages and read only ones that,for me, have beneficial things to say, and Robert, yours are always ones that I read bec. I find your posts precise and conducive to more understanding for me. I regard you as one of my Kalayanamitta[s], so I would quite miss you if you posted no more. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita > --- rjkjp1 wrote: 30746 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:58am Subject: SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 Brahma's request. Dear Chris and others, "Then Brahma Sahampati, having known with his own mind the reflection in the Blessed One's mind, thought: 'Alas, the world is lost! Alas, the world is to perish, in that the mind of the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, inclines to living at ease, not to preaching the Dhamma.' [367]. Then just as quickly as a strong man might extend his drawn-in arm or draw in his extended arm, Brahma Sahampati disappeared from the brahma world and reappeared before the before the Blessed One. He arranged his upper robe over one shoulder, knelt down with his right knee on the ground, raised his joined hands in reverential salutation towards the Blessed One, and said to him: 'Venerable Sir, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma; let the Fortunate One teach the Dhamma. There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma." note 367. Brahma Sahampati appears in dramatic roles at key points in the Buddha's ministry .... If this Brahma Sahampati knew 'with his own mind' what was in the Buddha's mind, I'm wondering if he also knew everything else that the Buddha knew. If so, then he must have been a very wise being as well, or maybe it just so happened that he knew this particular aspect of the Buddha's mind. I understand what you are saying about the Christian god, Christine. The Catholic God was supposed to be a 'knower of all things'. 'we are being dead tick by tick' [Htoonaing] Azita. 30747 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Philip You wonder about the meaning of 'development' in the teachings. In the texts we find reference to 2 kinds of 'bhavana' (mental development). These are samatha bhavana (the development of serenity/tranquility, which if developed to the full leads to the jhanas) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight, which is the path to enlightenment). Exactly what is involved in the development of insight (or understanding) is what the whole of the texts are about, so from that you will gather that there's no short or easy answer :-)). However, it has to do with understanding the true nature of dhammas, this being something about which we have much ignorance and wrong view. So it starts with understanding at an intellectual level more about these dhammas -- what they are and what their nature is. The same goes for the term 'practice', which in my view is a synonym for 'development'. Suffice it to say, that one of the stated attributes of the dhamma is its 'gradual' nature. So we shouldn't be in any hurry ;-)) You also asked about an earlier comment of mine when I said (referring to the pahaanas/abandonings): > As can be seen from this material, > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. I think I was referring to the fact that the descriptions of abandonings number (2) to (5) are descriptions of the outcome of vipassana bhavana/development of insight -- see the references to: (2) 'knowledge belonging to insight (vipassaná)' (3) 'knowledge of the noble path' (4) 'the moment of fruition (phala)' (5) 'the extinction and Nibbána' whereas the description of abandoning number (1) is a description of the outcome of samatha bhavana/development of serenity -- see the reference to: (1) 'this or that mental concentration (samádhi)' Excellent comments, Philip, and I hope what I've said is to the point. If you'd like to discuss in more detail, I'd be happy to do so. Jon (1) "Among these, 'overcoming by repression' is the pushing back of adverse things, such as the 5 mental hindrances (nívarana), etc., through this or that mental concentration (samádhi), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside.... (2) " 'Overcoming by the opposite' is the overcoming by opposing this or that thing that is to be overcome, by this or that factor of knowledge belonging to insight (vipassaná), just as a lighted lamp dispels the darkness of the night. In this way, the personality-belief (sakkáyaditthi) is overcome by determining the mental and corporeal phenomena ... the view of uncausedness of existence by investigation into the conditions... the idea of eternity by contemplation of impermanency ... the idea of happiness by contemplation of misery.... (3) "If through the knowledge of the noble path the fetters and other evil things cannot continue any longer, just like a tree destroyed by lightning, then such an overcoming is called 'overcoming by destruction' " (Vis.M. XXII, 110f.). (4) When, after the disappearing of the fetters at the entrance into the paths, the fetters, from the moment of fruition (phala) onwards, are forever extinct and stilled, such overcoming is called the 'overcoming by tranquillization'. (5) "The 'overcoming by escape' is identical with the extinction and Nibbána" (Pts.M. I. 27). http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm --- Philip wrote: > > Hello All. > > The "Buddhist Dictionary" passage Jon includes covers > the "abandoning" side of the coin, but only hints at "developing" > I'm > curious to know more about "develop." I've wondered about this word > > before, because it is often used by Ajaan Chah in "develop the > mind" > (Or, should I say, Thanissaro Bhikku uses it when > translating.) "Develop" sounds so active, even more active than > the "cultivate" I usually use when talking about Brahma-Viharas. 30748 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] The strength of Form Ken O Strength of form, or of kilesa? I think perhaps the latter. Like you say in a later post, the latent tendencies (anusaya) are far more powerful than we realize. We have no idea what akusala we are capable of given the right conditions. In my view, it would be a mistake ever to assume that we are not capable of any particular form of akusala. That way we are more ready to anticipate it, and less surprised if it happens ;-)). Appreciating your sharings lately, Ken. Jon --- Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > Another of sharing of thought. > > In MN Sutta 115 - The Greater Discourse of Voidness. > Buddha "I do not see even a single kind of form, Ananda, from the > change and alteration of which there would not arise sorrow, > lamentation, pain, grief and despair in one who lusts for it and > takes delight in it" > > MN Sutta 125. The Grade of the Tamed > Buddha [Aggivessana, how is it possible that Prince Jayasena, > living > in the midst of sensual pleasure, enjoying sensual pleasures, being > devoured by thoughts of sensual pleasures, being consumed by the > fever of sensual pleasure, bent on the search for sensual pleasure, > could know, see, or realize which must be known through > renunciation, > seen through renunciation, attained through renunciation realized > through renunciation. That is impossible.] > > It is so hard to see the anicca, anatta and dukkha of sensual > pleasure especially to the alluring and enticing of form. Most of > the time without realising that I have been too captivated by them. > Such is the dukkha that form creates. 30749 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Ken O I agree with you about the power of the latent tendencies, but I'm not sure about this: > ...If it is not dhamma talk, remain silent, is a > very powerful precept. Those powerful tendencies will have their way, whether we are talking or staying silent. There no rule for lay people that all talk except dhamma talk is to be avoided, and to self-impose such rule would be a burden on those you live and work with. Try applying the same reasoning to other aspects of your life, e.g., don't eat unless you can do so without attachment. I don't think it will work ;-)) Jon --- Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > Recently, I realise that latent tendecy is powerful and arise in a > person unknowlying. It conditioned much lobha, dosa and moha > without > one realising it. Tendency that has been condition in the past, > will > arise when one is not mindful and ardent. It catches one in the > stream of samasara world, it swept away one in the flood of > fetters. > While I woke up this morning, I heard simple words like How are you > or good morning, sounds polite may have tendecy involved. It may be > attached to cultural values or societal values or value to show one > is polite. Even simple reactions like, yah, I agree or I think > this > way, its good, could be a conditoned arise due to conceit that one > think it is right. If it is not dhamma talk, remain silent, is a > very powerful precept. It reminds one to look at consider or > reflect > our consciouness, to say this or to say that. 30750 From: dsgmods Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening. Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, ... > Now some more chatting about listening. In Bgk Jon told me that he listens > each day forty minutes to a Dhamma CD during his walk. That is a good > example for me, I should listen more. A. Sujin said, when you listen to the > Dhamma you think more of the Dhamma instead of thinking about other things. > Very practical. Yes, I certainly agree with the great value of listening, but it can only happen if the conditions are right. For me it happens if at all on my 40 minute daily walk with Sarah, but of course the 40 minutes is a theoretical maximum ;-)) and there are times when we have things to discuss or other circumstances prevail. It's true that it can lead to much useful reflection, but also the degree of that varies for obvious reasons. Highly recommended, though, for anyone so inclined. Jon 30751 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hello Jon, and all. Thanks for the clarification Jon. I was confused because the bhavana side of the coin wasn't laid out in that post. J:> You wonder about the meaning of 'development' in the teachings. > > In the texts we find reference to 2 kinds of 'bhavana' (mental > development). These are samatha bhavana (the development of > serenity/tranquility, which if developed to the full leads to the > jhanas) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight, which is > the path to enlightenment). Ph: I wonder where metta fits in here. If I recall correctly, in the abhidhamma it's a cetasika, but in the suttanta is it ever taught as a kind of mental development? Here 's a verse from the Metta sutta: Mettañ ca sabba-lokasmim Manasam bhavaye aparimanam Uddham adho ca tiriyanca Asambadham averam asapattam Cultivate an all-embracing mind of love For all throughout the universe, In all its height, depth and breadth -- Love that is untroubled And beyond hatred or enmity. The "bhavaye" must be something like cultivate/develop. But since the suffix is different I guess it's referring to a different practice than bhavana. Could you or someone tell me the difference between "bhavana" and "bhavaye?" I wish I could throw myself into Pali study, but I'm already being very lazy about my Japanese. Since cultivating the Brahma-Viharas is so central to my practice, I'm curious to know if it is a form of bhavana along with samattha and vipassana. The vipassana book I read (Mindfulness in Plain English) recommended metta as a warm-up exercise. For me, it's a practice all of it's own. Thanks again. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Philip > > You wonder about the meaning of 'development' in the teachings. > > In the texts we find reference to 2 kinds of 'bhavana' (mental > development). These are samatha bhavana (the development of > serenity/tranquility, which if developed to the full leads to the > jhanas) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight, which is > the path to enlightenment). > > Exactly what is involved in the development of insight (or > understanding) is what the whole of the texts are about, so from that > you will gather that there's no short or easy answer :-)). However, > it has to do with understanding the true nature of dhammas, this > being something about which we have much ignorance and wrong view. > So it starts with understanding at an intellectual level more about > these dhammas -- what they are and what their nature is. > > The same goes for the term 'practice', which in my view is a synonym > for 'development'. > > Suffice it to say, that one of the stated attributes of the dhamma is > its 'gradual' nature. So we shouldn't be in any hurry ;-)) > > You also asked about an earlier comment of mine when I said > (referring to the pahaanas/abandonings): > > As can be seen from this material, > > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. > > I think I was referring to the fact that the descriptions of > abandonings number (2) to (5) are descriptions of the outcome of > vipassana bhavana/development of insight -- see the references to: > (2) 'knowledge belonging to insight (vipassan?E' > (3) 'knowledge of the noble path' > (4) 'the moment of fruition (phala)' > (5) 'the extinction and Nibbána' > > whereas the description of abandoning number (1) is a description of > the outcome of samatha bhavana/development of serenity -- see the > reference to: > (1) 'this or that mental concentration (samádhi)' > > Excellent comments, Philip, and I hope what I've said is to the > point. If you'd like to discuss in more detail, I'd be happy to do > so. > > Jon > > (snip) 30752 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:14am Subject: Conditioned patience (was re:Paramis 8356) Hello all. Interested in the exchange below about how patience is conditioned, and cannot be willed. An experience today brought that home. Today I went to work still feeling rapturous about having come across the abhidhamma and had started my work day when a staff member at my school kind of took me to the side and said, much to my astonishment, in broken English, "When I see you I think of the Dalai Lama" and went on to paraphrase the Dalai Lama talking about himself as a boundless ocean, referring, I guess to the Brahma-Viharas, which I know HHDL is big on. He said that I was like that, that I made the students very comfortable, and so on. Well, you know by now how keen I am about the Immeasurables, so for someone to say something like that to me out of the blue (I've never mentioned an interest in Buddhism to anyone at work) when I was already feeling rapturous about the Buddha's teaching obviously just sent saddha through the roof. In the old days, it would have fuelled my ego, and I would never have told anyone about it, in the belief that it was a kind of sacred experience or something like that. Nonsense. On the way home on the train, things people have told me here about being patient came to mind, and I felt the need to practice khanti arise. Rob K, Nina, Jon and maybe others have all mentionned patience, conditioning patience by doing so, I guess, and that conditioned patience arose when I needed it to prevent me from going off the rails. Patience with bearing good experiences as well as harsh ones. A very good example of how the kind of discussions that go on here are a form of practice, not just talking about practice. Also, I'm learning more about that question I asked: "How do you pratice the paramis." I had wondered if people choose to focus on certain ones at certain times but now I sense that they are conditioned and the need for them arises to the mind of those who are aware, the way the need for khanti arose today. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 30-09-2001 09:16 schreef Sukinderpal Narula op sukin@k...: > > > My view is that patience, just like anything else being anatta arises only > > when conditions are right. This means that we cannot 'will' patience. > > When we do not react to unwanted situations this can be anything from > > fear of repercussions to cold indifference. > > And when we talk ourselves into having patience because we believe it > > to be useful to the situation and/or 'self- development', we are dealing > > purely on the conceptual level. This is not to say that on the conceptual > > level there cannot be a more genuine patience or that it can't develop > > until and unless panna of a very high level arises. I think that everytime > > there is some reflection about paramatthadhammas or khandas for example, > > knowing that what appears can be reduced to these impersonal elements, > > and that there is in the ultimate sense no person or situation to be patient > > towards and no one to be patient, then I think that 'patience' can arise. > > Regarding patience being "the chief cause for the practice of the other > > paramis", I want to add that eventhough wisdom is required for patience > > to be 'true patience'; patience is a necessary factor for the development of > > wisdom. Willing and wishing and wanting to have panna sounds like not > > the way to having it and can lead to 'impatience'. > > A. Sujin always encourages patience, bravery and good-cheer with regard > > to development of wisdom. > > I guess this is all I have to say for now. Will appreciate comments from > > anybody. > > > Dear Sukin, I appreciate your post on patience being conditioned and > non-self, very much. We are inclined to think, I should be patient, and this > is often not successful. I especially like your reminder that A. sujin > encourages patience, bravery and cheerfulness, when developing satipatthana. > Yes, I have often heard this from her (athaan rarung) and it is good to be > reminded again. When people do not see any result in being aware of seeing, > visible object, hearing, sound and all objects appearing through the six > doors they become disheartened, they give up. But as I learnt from a text of > the Mahaniddesa given by Jim about jhaayati, reflection, we have to examine > realities closely, often, frequently, in various ways, continuously. > Pa~n~naa has to go on discriminating nama and rupa, not once or twice. We > also read in the teachings, that the Buddha inspired the monks, encouraged > them, delighted them with Dhamma talk. I like the good cheer element, > because if there is discouragement it shows our clinging to result. Why > don't we live from moment to moment and forget about result, such as > attaining vipassana ~n~nas. There is enough to be done right now, but it is > not a self who develops. > Sukin, if you and Amara can sometimes give us reminders you heard at the > Foundation sessions, many people will be very grateful. Thank you again, > Nina. 30753 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Dear Robert K and Christine, I am joining Christine. When I read Larry's post I could not find anything disagreeable in it. In fact, I liked it very much, since he was stressing that we should know lobha and dosa, know our own citta, just now. That matters most in all those discussions. He very consistently likes to study and concentrate on a few subjects, and might find that the pro and contra jhana Emails are a little to many. His usual style is very brief. It could be misunderstood. He prefers another translation of the quoted sutta, that is all. Email is a difficult medium. When we reread a post the next day we interprete it differently. I hope this is cleared up. As Ken O said, we need a lot of metta and karuna here! And patience! I heard this on tape about the perfections: This is so very actual. I like to quote a sutta: Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch XVII, § 7: we read that Sariputta said that one should pay attention to five things when exhorting someone else: Nina. op 29-02-2004 06:59 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: (snip) > > Robert - It would be a great loss to this group if you should > leave, and, selfishly, a loss for me as well, as I learn so much > from you - you are responsible for many of us joining dsg in the > first place, and I'm sure you've written a high percentage of the > Useful Posts. Misunderstandings are just that, and can be cleared > away with goodwill. Please reconsider. 30754 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Dear James, I will come back to you later on. I like to explain a few things in order to clear up misunderstandings which are quite unnecessary as I see it. Today I first have to concentrate on other subjects. Can you or others help me to find the sutta? The annotation of BB is hard to find. Grad. Book of the Fives, I think. Which Ch and which para? O, yes, I found it: Pitisutta, Zest. Nina. op 28-02-2004 16:23 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > So, Nina, it seems to me that K. Sujin is mistaken when she teaches > householders that they can¡¦t and shouldn¡¦t practice jhana. She is > pandering to what they want to hear, removing them from personal > responsibility, and setting up an atmosphere and belief leading to > failure. 30755 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello RobertK. RobertK: Now the only path available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not at all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane jhanas. Michael: I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. I don't intend to argue with you but just to understand your thinking. Could you also expand on what the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. Metta Michael 30756 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Jon Dont speak if it is not dhamma is a precept which I consider deeply because whenever when I talk, is it because of conceit, or moha or or aversion. As I said earlier in my email, simple pleasantaries could be a result of our need to comply societal values or conceit. Definitely this rule does not apply strictly to lay people because of our need to communicate with friends, family and work. I think self impose do not bring any benefit, I am saying reflecting on our rooted consciouness when we speak, and we can see there are indeed many motivation involved. There can be many enlightening experience just reflecting before or after or during our talk. When we talk it is also rupa that talk, reflecting on the three characterisic on it can also be a wonderful experience. IMHO a sombering fact about talking is that when we talk other than dhamma latent tendecy will be reconditioned be it a necessity for us to communicate with friends, family etc. Sometimes when I get carried away then latent tendecy has already manifested. Definitely it is still up to individual though ;-). Ken O 30757 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned patience (was re:Paramis 8356) Hi Philip I dont conditioned patient because no one can. I only consider nama and rupas when it arise and when it cease, that is to me the cultivation of patience. When the mind is not agitated where is there impatient to be found. I dont cultivate compassion because it will arise when one see dhammas as impermanent. Impermanence reminds me that we might never meet again in this conditioned world for this life time, whatever good I could help within my means, I will naturally do it. Think about it Ken O 30758 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi all "Enough now with trying to teach What I found with so much hardship; This Dhamma is not easily understood By those oppressed by lust and hate. "Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will never see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream." The last sentence "going against the stream" is very true. Yesterday I was working and I happen to chance upon a colleague to talk about sensual pleasure. He talks about sensual pleasure, he dont see the danger in it. He thinks as long as one does not overdo it, it is ok, he thinks that without sensual pleasure there is no enjoyment in living. This phrase about "going against the stream" is indeed true. But then I explain in layman term on hunger for things, I ask him do you ever stop hunger for things, when you play computer games, do you hunger for more and when you stop playing, you cant forget about it. He say that is true. I hope this little conversation will sown a little dhamma in him and accumulate his panna which may one day blossom :). That is what I meant about cultivation of compassion. Simple things like asking your children to put the money in the donation box, telling your wife about good things bring good result, listening to your friends when they are in need are practices of compassion. There is no need to purposely do it or to meditate about it. It is right here and right now. Ken O 30759 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis, listening, by Lodewijk. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > I will come back to you later on. I like to explain a few things in order to > clear up misunderstandings which are quite unnecessary as I see it. Today I > first have to concentrate on other subjects. > Can you or others help me to find the sutta? The annotation of BB is hard to > find. Grad. Book of the Fives, I think. Which Ch and which para? > O, yes, I found it: Pitisutta, Zest. > Nina. Okay, take your time. No big deal. It would probably be better for you to wait until the smoke clears around here anyway! ;-)) So anyway, did you find the sutta or do you still need help? I don't entirely understand your post. The sutta in my copy of the AN, Translated by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi, is Sutta 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion" on Pg. 141. In whatever version you are using it may be called "Pitisutta" since Piti is defined as rapture. We are probably looking at the same sutta. I will await your response. Thank you for letting me know that you are working on it. Metta, James 30760 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hello KenO, KenO: He talks about sensual pleasure, he dont see the danger in it. He thinks as long as one does not overdo it, it is ok, he thinks that without sensual pleasure there is no enjoyment in living. This phrase about "going against the stream" is indeed true. But then I explain in layman term on hunger for things, I ask him do you ever stop hunger for things, when you play computer games, do you hunger for more and when you stop playing, you cant forget about it. He say that is true. Michael: A question came to me mind. Is it possible for a human being to live without pleasure? Do you think the Buddha taught that it is possible, or that his disciples should live without pleasure? Metta Michael 30761 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Hi Nina, Thanks for this very timely reminder. I was just considering a rather harsh response to a recent post by an habitually very rude contributor. I'm glad Sariputta's admonition caught me in time mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch XVII, § 7: we read that Sariputta said that one should pay attention to five things when exhorting someone else: 30762 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Rob, Jon's right--yours are invariably among the best and most important messages on the list. Do stick around please. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 12:27 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks > Rob K > > I thought your original post was a good one, and your comments were > spot on. Please stick around! Sarah and I greatly value your > contribution to the list. 30763 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:01am Subject: CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! RECORD ACHIEVED :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Hello all, I wish to thank and congratulate the List Owners, Sarah and Jon Abbott, for providing this wonderful 'venue' for us in which to meet and discuss the Dhamma. Their deft and respectful management of some of the very different and/or strong personalities that congregate here from all over the world, and their sharing of their dhamma knowledge and understanding has made it generally a safe and supportive place to ask questions and learn, and to occasionally, disagree. My gratitude also goes to some of the more knowledgeable members of the group for valuable mentoring and support. Some you you who were originally just little squiggles, have now become dear friends (a bit like life really :-)) This group began on 28 December, 1999, and in the first full month of January, 2000 had the Grand Total of 102 posts. In that first full month, there were eight or so members very actively posting, and the subjects covered included: why study, our blind spots, self, rebirth, kamma, sense doors, control, and paramattha dhammas. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose :-) Previously, the maximum number of posts in a month stood at 1132 in July 2001. The number for February, 2004 (and it isn't as long as July 2001) reached - wait for it ... Taaa Daaaah!! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN POSTS!!! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Talkative lot, aren't you?! :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30764 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 4:17:10 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: James: Good, no reason to be concerned about it. I practiced vipassana for many years and got to a point where I couldn't go forward anymore. I didn't have a strong enough foundation in calmness. I totally freaked when I really saw that my mind was appearing and disappearing! ;-)) So now I have switched to Jhana to get that foundation in calmness that I need. I may stay with Jhana or I may switch back, but I think I will stay with Jhana. I like it more and it seems to suit me better. James, I started with jhana many, many years ago. The I switched to vipassana laced with a little jhana work and am now using the Anapanasati Sutta as a guide. Using the APS Sutta means including what some would call jhana work (working with concentration, piti and sukha for instance) and some would call vipassana work. By the way, my experience is that some people think they are doing jhana work or vipassana and are not. jack 30765 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack James, I am back refreshed from a 1 day retreat. I will try to answer your comments below. In a nutshell, I think "jhana" is used in two different ways in the suttas. If I go to my favorite book of suttas (Majjhima Nikaya translated by my favorite translators B. Nanamoli and B. Bodhi) and look in the glossary under "jhana" I find two definitions: 1. meditative absorptions and 2. meditation. I then go to what I consider the definitive source for translations, PTS' Pali-English Dictionary, and find the same thing. If the word "jhana' is not defined by the Buddha in the suttas, I think he means "jhana" as meditation. If the word "jhana" is defined as levels of absorption, he means it in that specific sense. This is not the point that Thanisssaro is making in his article, though. James: I am not considering `most people'; I am only considering the Buddha. The Buddha didn't define jhana incorrectly. When the Buddha said jhana he meant jhana, when he said satipatthana he meant satipatthana. I don't see what the issue is. Jack: You are quite the debator. I said Thanissaso thinks most people are incorrect in defining [Buddha's use of] "jhana." You answer with jhana means jhana. Can't argue with that. Jack: To repeat myself, Thanis. thinks jhana and vipasssana are not two separate practices but aspects of the same practice. His comments are consistent with this. No bait and switch is involved. James: Well, to repeat myself ;-), Thanissaro is wrong about this. What else can I say? He is wrong. He isn't the Buddha; he isn't an arahant; it is actually possible for him to be wrong. You are racking up the debating points. Yes, I concede, Thanissaro could be wrong. I could be wrong. I dare say you could be wrong. We all could be wrong. Jack: The Buddha didn't present his teachings in one sutta. He presented it in many different suttas emphasizing different aspects. One sutta would emphasis this. Another sutta would emphasis that. James: I'm sorry, but you are going to have to be a little more specific. I gave you the Samadhi Sutta where the Buddha specifically describes different practices of concentration which lead to different results: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html In this sutta the Buddha describes jhana as being one type of concentration and satipatthana as being a different type of concentration. How much plainer can it get? ;-) Give me just one sutta where the Buddha said that it isn't important to consider the differences and that there is really only one type of meditation. Jack: I read this sutta as presenting the many benefits of meditation not presenting mutually exclusive types of meditation. I think I have mentioned before that I think the Anapanasati Sutta gives one complete mental development program. This is one program and not split into vipassana and jhana. I also think the Samadhi Sutta presents one type of meditation. Jack: To me, focusing my attention on the body means I remember to focus my attention on my body. That is what Thanis. is saying. James: Yes, mindfulness does involve remembering but that isn't all. Are all you doing is remembering to focus on your body? What about actually doing it? I could remember that I need to buy eggs at the store but nothing will happen until I actually go buy them. When I focus my attention, I constantly remember to bring my attention back to my object of meditation. Remembering is part of doing it. jack: Thanis. is not saying to get involved in any drama. He is saying to deeply feel/realize arising and passing away, not to stay on the surface. James: To `feel' and to `realize' are two different things. Feelings are suffering; realization is wisdom and isn't suffering. You are being as unspecific in your use of terms as Thanissaro, that was all I was saying. jack: Your 5 methods involve (1) reflecting, (2) considering, (3) not paying attention, (4) reflecting again and (5) mentally beating down the thought. To me, this involves arguing --especially (5) beating down. Nowhere does Thanis. say to lose one's equanimity. James: First, these are the Buddha's methods, not mine. Second, I don't think that one can `argue' with equanimity. The very word `argue' means that feelings are involved with automatically destroys equanimity. Of course, this is a semantic issue and Thanissaro didn't elaborate what he really meant so we can drop it. jack: One aspect of jhana/vipassana meditation is overcoming the 5 hindrances. Anger is one of the 5 hindrances. So, it seems to be very fitting to bring in anger. James: First, what do you mean by `jhana/vipassana meditation'? I thought you are agreeing with Thanissaro that there aren't any differences? Now you are really confusing me! ;-)) Jhana/vipassana means the meditation is both. Second, when writing an essay or article it isn't okay to start elaborating at length on anything that is only somewhat related to your main thesis. I have a B.A. in English and a Masters in English Education, trust me on this one! ;-)) Your credentials overwhelm me. I concede. Be well. jack 30766 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing with the finger at whom ? Venerable Bhante, Very well spoken. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! Nina. op 29-02-2004 09:58 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu_samahita@y...: > When finding 'mistakes' in then ancient scriptures ao: > >> Then one should examine whether oneself >> may have misunderstood any subtle point! > 30767 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned patience (was re:Paramis 8356) Dear Philip, very nice. We need to develop all the paramis, but we should not think: what kind of parami shall I develop. I know you don't, but A. Sujin reminded us of this. So that we do not think of my paramis. She also said that we do not have to think of the paramis in order to develop them, and all of them can develop together. As you say, they are conditioned. When there is patience it is not too difficult to also have metta and the other Brahmaviharas, and sila in deeds and speech. Recently about metta, in Bgk, we talked about my father who, especially in the past, did not seem to care much for me. He prefers sons, daughters are second class. But then we concluded: I like him, even when he does not like me, and that is metta. Practical, isn't it? We can apply that to others who do not like us, it does help. Nina. op 29-02-2004 15:14 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Also, I'm learning more about that question I asked: "How do you > pratice the paramis." I had wondered if people choose to focus on > certain ones at certain times but now I sense that they are > conditioned and the need for them arises to the mind of those who are > aware, the way the need for khanti arose today. 30768 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Hello Nina, and Mike :-) This is a good point - my previous spiritual path valued 'righteous anger'; it was O.K. to be outraged by cruelty, tragedy, rudeness and incompetence. One of the hardest lessons to understand, since I have learned about buddhism in daily life, is coming to see that 'dosa' is 'dosa', no matter how I dress it up. Nice to see you around again, Mike, can we hope to read you more frequently? :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for this very timely reminder. I was just considering a rather harsh > response to a recent post by an habitually very rude contributor. I'm glad > Sariputta's admonition caught me in time > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nina van gorkom" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:17 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. > > > Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch XVII, § 7: > we read that Sariputta said that one should pay attention to five things > when exhorting someone else: > not what has not; I will speak with gentleness, not harshness; I will speak > about the Goal, not about what is not the Goal; I will speak with mind of > amity, not of ill-will.> 30769 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ========================= > I certainly don't have perfect and consistent calm - far from it. I > get angry at times, though not often and never powerfully or with any duration > to it. Worry does arise from time to time, and sometimes fear, and often desire > of one sort or another. But overall, much calm has come to me over the years > as a result of Dhamma practice, some insight, and also a growing love for > "sentient beings" that is an enormous joy to me. > I don't know "where I am" on the path of practice, and it really > doesn't matter all that much. All that matters to me in that regard is having > gotten to the point of having tremendous confidence that this Dhamma of the > Buddha's is the real thing. I am enormously grateful for it and enormously grateful > to him - and for good friends in the Dhamma. > > With metta, > Howard James: I was reflecting on this conversation about the differences in our practices and I wanted to share a sutta that, I think, addresses these differences: AN 81 "Four Modes of Progress": There are, O monks, these four modes of progress. What four? The mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge; the mode of progress that is painful with quick direct knowledge; the mode of progress that is pleasant, with sluggish direct knowledge; and the mode of progress that is pleasant, with quick direct knowledge. And what is the mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion, and he often experiences pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear to him to be tender - the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their tenderness he sluggishly attains the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints. (64) This is called the mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge. And what is the mode of progress that is painful, with quick direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion, and he often experiences pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear in him to be prominent – the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their prominence he quickly attains the immediacy conditions for the destruction of the taints. This is called the mode of progress that is painful, with quick direct knowledge. And what is the mode of progess that is pleasant, with sluggish direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is not by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion, and he does not often experience pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear in him to be tender – the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their tenderness he sluggishly attains the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints. This is called the mode of progress that is pleasant, with sluggish direct knowledge. And what is the mode of progress this is pleasant, with quick direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is not by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred, and delusion, and he does not often experience pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear to him to be prominent – the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their prominence he quickly attains the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints. This is called the mode of progress that is pleasant, with quick direct knowledge. These, monks, are the four modes of progress. Note 64: Anantariyam. AA explains this as the concentration of the path (maggasamadhi), which is followed immediately by its result (i.e. corresponding fruit). James: So, Howard, when I describe my Buddhist practice as being painful, there is a reason for that. It doesn't mean that I am practicing incorrectly, it just means that I am by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion (I'm sure some members here could attest to that! ;-)) And here I am actually being quite good compared to how I could be! Remember?? ;-)). Anyway, I have to really struggle for any progress I achieve and I can't be lackadaisical about it. This is why I am often misunderstood, I think. I know a lot about Buddhism and practice really diligently but I can be a real `pain in the #$^%$' at times. (I am really glad that you are able to see through that and that I can call you a genuine friend.) I believe you, on the other hand, are not strongly disposed to lust, hatred or delusion. Buddhist practice to you isn't terribly painful and you don't have to struggle all that hard. You are always cool and rational (for the most part ;-) and everyone looks up to you. You are by nature the `Model Buddhist'. And I think that is great and I am not jealous or bothered- because you are genuine. Anyway, just sharing my thoughts. There is also an interesting article on the Buddha's chief disciples: Sariputta and Maha- Moggallana at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html that describes their different paths to enlightenment. Maha- Moggallana had to struggle intensely, get personal help from the Buddha at least twice, and also developed very advanced psychic ability as a result—but he achieved enlightenment in half the time it took Sariputta. Sariputta however did not struggle, did not need help, and consequently didn't develop any psychic abilities-but was the more respected of the two. Sound familiar? ;-)) Metta, James 30770 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:27pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your reply. I am trying to put right messages while that person is trying to put mocery messages. And made own versions of Sutta. Unthinkable. Now there is another wrong message. And that message has been distributed to many groups. The message needs thorough dissection so that real dhamma can be seen inside of mocked message. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > The Buddha never preached right absorption is Samma-Samadhi. > > I would say jhana attainment is one way of getting Samma-Samadhi. > But it is not the only way. If it is the only way, why bother > about the term 'Samma-Samadhi'; just saying 'Jhana' explicitly > would make the job so much easier. > > > Absorption is not supramundane consciousness. The Buddha or The > > historic Buddha did not preach absorption is supremundane > > consciousness. > > Totally agree. To say that jhana is supramundane consciousness is > making a mockery of the Buddha's achievements. > > > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > > of 7 factors of enlightenment. > > Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 30771 From: Carl Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks "Time for me to move on. RobertK" ============================================= Dear RobertK, I would certainly miss you if you left. I am reposting the following that you wrote to me when I first came to DSG. I just wanted to say thank you. You are one of the main Pillars supporting the DSG. Carl =================================================== "It is just a flux happening so fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the change of dhammas. RobertK " =================================================== ====================================== From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:30 pm Subject: Re: New Member "rjkjp1" wrote: > > ---------------------- >Carl asks:....... i.e. *I* can feel *hardness*. Without *I*, what is to feel? Hardness is a paramattha dhamma. *I* is a conventional reality. It takes two to tango (so to speak). (No *I*) + (No *Hardness*) = (No dance). _______ RobertK answers: I appreciate your questions Carl and so I give a detailed answer. In the Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi)" 'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned,cut off at the root...."endquote. Thus there is no I who experiences hardness but rather because of conditions coming together there is the experience of hardness. This `being' is simply a puppet with manifold parts – all coming together in different combinations – lasting for an instant and then falling away again. Because the conditions that make up each moment are often similar "we" look and feel somewhat the same from moment to moment – and this is one aspect of how continuity deludes. ""Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness." Visuddhimagga xviii31 The conditions that make up what we think of as a human being are of course more complex than a marionette, and hence more difficult to fathom. The first steps, of this very long untanglement, are about identifying, with right wisdom, the various characteristics of the different phenomena that comprise this `being' this manisfestion of paticcasamuppada. Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent. But there are only different elements performing different functions - and they have no agenda: "[The] uninterestedness becomes evident to him though seeing rise and fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more thoroughly abandons the self view"visuddhimagga xx102 The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to conditions owing to his discovery that states have no curiosity and have their existence depending upon conditions" xx102 "All the formed bases(eye base, ear base, tongue base etc) should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery being exercisable over them since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. "XV15 This is deep Dhamma that can only be heard during the time of a Buddhasasana. RobertK ========================================== Thank you for this wonderful post. Carl 30772 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:02pm Subject: Re: CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! RECORD ACHIEVED :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Dear All: HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH= HHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!= !!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------ > > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) > ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN POSTS!!! > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'We are the champions, myfriend... We will be the finest at the end... We are the champions... WEEEEEE ARE THE CHAAAAMAPIONS...." Mettaya, Ícaro > Talkative lot, aren't you?! :-) > YEAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 30773 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Htoo, I understand your dismay at seeing widely dispersed messages (Dhamma Spam?) that contain what some consider to be distortions of the Teachings, driven by personal needs of the poster. It is impossible to refute all wrong view - because there is much more of it in the world than Right Understanding. Ultimately, people are responsible for what they believe themselves - they can and do search for authoritative sources of teaching, and have the opportunity to notice what is inconsistent with the Buddha's Words. I understand your grave concern at seeing alterations to the words of suttas called 'improvements' and 'corrections' posted on the Net. The responsibility for this is also shared by any listowner allowing them to remain unchallenged. But, one thing to consider is that not many people are interested in reading long messages, and perhaps the messages should be left to 'die a quiet death'. Any discussion merely keeps them in the public eye for longer. So, perhaps, post your reply but do not continue to debate? Enjoying, as always, any posts you care to make. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30774 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:08pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, Jack: I am back refreshed from a 1 day retreat. I will try to answer your comments below. In a nutshell, I think "jhana" is used in two different ways in the suttas. If I go to my favorite book of suttas (Majjhima Nikaya translated by my favorite translators B. Nanamoli and B. Bodhi) and look in the glossary under "jhana" I find two definitions: 1. meditative absorptions and 2. meditation. I then go to what I consider the definitive source for translations, PTS' Pali- English Dictionary, and find the same thing. If the word "jhana' is not defined by the Buddha in the suttas, I think he means "jhana" as meditation. If the word "jhana" is defined as levels of absorption, he means it in that specific sense. James: Thank you for pointing this out. I didn't think to look there. That is why I asked if the word `Jhana' was ever used just by itself by the Buddha, I really didn't know. Actually the glossary to the MN defines Jhana as (1) untranslated: meditative absorption; (2) meditation. You left out that `untranslated' part and that could be important?? That is why I wrote that when the Buddha said "Jhana" he meant "Jhana", not just meditation. (I wasn't trying to `win' debate points). Jack: I said Thanissaso thinks most people are incorrect in defining [Buddha's use of] "jhana." James: Again, I don't see the point of what Thanissaro thinks about this. The Buddha himself defined jhana practically every time he spoke about it, but here is a sutta where he went into a very detailed explanation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-028.html Jack: You are racking up the debating points. Yes, I concede, Thanissaro could be wrong. I could be wrong. I dare say you could be wrong. We all could be wrong. James: Hmmm…I sense a lot of agitation here. I don't think that retreat did you much good! ;-)) (just kidding) Yes, of course I could be wrong also. The only one who couldn't be wrong is the Buddha. I was a `Lincoln-Douglas and Cross-Examination Debater' in high school and college (any other former debators out there?? ;-) but, when I debated as a scholastic exercise I didn't really believe in the side I was debating. I would debate both sides of any issue over and over again. It is an excellent activity, which I recommend to all students, because it helps to develop critical thinking skills. However, in this case I am not debating just for the sake of debating. I do actually believe, sincerely, what I am telling you. If you don't think so, okay. Jack: Jack: I read this sutta as presenting the many benefits of meditation not presenting mutually exclusive types of meditation. James: Well, the sutta was actually about `concentration' but you do have a point there. It doesn't describe different methods, only different results. However, I think that one can determine that different methods would be the only way to produce different results. I don't think it is like a roulette wheel where you take your chances about what you are going to get. I gave another sutta, in a different post to Jeff, which more specifically points to two actual different practices. It is post #30699 if you want to check it out. Jack: Your credentials overwhelm me. I concede. James: Hmmm…sarcasm too. Just what did you do at that retreat? ;-)) I was not trying to impress you, just to explain why I know what I was talking about. I wanted to expedite the conversation. If you want me to impress you I can send you my full resume! ;-)) Metta, James 30775 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:45pm Subject: Scholars and Meditators Hi All, I have been studying the AN lately (wanted to take a break from the SN), and I came across this sutta that just really made me laugh—and reminded me of DSG ;-)): AN 125 "Scholars and Meditators" Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was dwelling at Sahajati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the monks thus: "Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma (20) and they disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: `Look at those monks! They think, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so they meditate to and fro, meditate up and down! (21) What, then, do they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. (22) "Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks who are keen on Dhamma, saying `Look at those monks! They think, "We are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma- experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and they will be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: `Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise those monks who are meditators.' And why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbana). "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: `Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise those monks who are Dhamma- experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." Note 20: Dhammayoga. AA says that the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika), but it probably refers to all those who are keen on studies and cultivate principally the intellectual approach. The term seems to be unique to the present text and the distincition posited between meditators and "those keen on Dhamma" is suggestive of a late origin. Note 21: Jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanbti avajjhayanti. These synonyms, formed by prefixes to the verb "to meditate", cannot be rendered adequately into English. They are meant to indicate belittlement and ridicule. Note: If people refuse to give respect or recognition to those with talents, temperaments or pursuits different from those of their own, only mutual displeasure will result. An exclusive emphasis on one- sided development will not lead to progress and true happiness, which can be found only in an ever-renewed attempt at harmonizing what should be complementary, and not antagonistic, in the human mind and in society. James Note': I just had a sobering thought: What if we all have been arguing this subject for coutless lifetimes? ;-)) 30776 From: connie Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:17pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different Hi James and Christine, Here's the part of Nina's SPD that I was thinking of: The javana víthi-cittas that are kusala and those which are akusala arise and fall away in succession and they accumulate kusala or akusala all the time. This conditions each person to have different inclinations, a different character and a different behaviour. The accumulations in the citta of each person are most intricate. Also the arahats, those who have reached perfection, have different inclinations, they excel in different qualities. Venerable Såriputta was preeminent in wisdom, venerable Mahå Moggallåna in superpowers, venerable Mahå Kassapa in the observance of ascetical practices, which he also encouraged others to observe, and venerable Anuruddha was preeminent in clairvoyance. The javana víthi-cittas of each one of us arrange themselves in their own series or continuity and accumulate different kinds of kusala and of akusala time and again, and this is the reason that, at the present time, we all think, speak and act in completely different ways. Cittas that are kusala, akusala and mahå-kiriya which arrange themselves in a series of javana, cause people to have a different behaviour through body and speech. It could happen that people who saw an arahat had contempt for him because they judged him by his outward behaviour, which he had accumulated for an endlessly long time. The Brahman Vassakåra, the prime minister of Magadha, for example, made a serious mistake by misjudging an arahat from his outward behaviour. When he saw Mahå Kacchana coming down from a mountain he said that Mahå Kacchana behaved like a monkey. Vassakåra's haughtiness was conditioned by the accumulation of his javana víthi-cittas. The Buddha told him to ask Mahå Kacchana forgiveness, but his accumulated conceit was the condition that he was unable to do so. The Buddha predicted that Vassakåra, after he had died, would be reborn as a monkey in a bamboo wood. Vassakåra had thereupon banana trees planted as well as other things monkeys could eat. Then his food would be all ready for him when he would be reborn as a monkey in that bamboo wood. We should see the danger of the accumulation of akusala in the javana víthi-cittas that arise and fall away in a succession of seven cittas. Akusala is accumulated time and again so that it becomes one's nature and appears in one's behaviour and speech and this accumulated behaviour is called in Påli: "våsanå" 2. Even when one has become an arahat there are inclinations accumulated in the citta that condition different kinds of behaviour. The Buddha is the only person who could eradicate "våsanå". All arahats have eradicated defilements completely so that not even a germ is left of them, but nevertheless they are unable to eradicate "våsanå". This is because they have accumulated "våsanå" for an endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death through the power of javana víthi-cittas. I love the monkey story! James, I think when it says only the Buddha could eradicate vasana, it means the Sammasambuddha rather than the Paccekabuddha. I don't remember exactly what all the differences between them are. Both are self-enlightened, but our Sammasambuddha is the Teacher and has qualities the other (private, solitary, silent, etc) Buddhas don't. peace, connie 30777 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] for RobK Robert, I can't imagine this group without you. It's like one of the main lights in a room has been turned off and now it is not so bright as before. Unlike Azita, I read almost *all* the mails on dsg. The main reason being that even views I consider wrong are good reminders to me. The accumulated wrong view is so great that I have little difficulty identifying with those wrong views, and consider myself only lucky to have found K. Sujin and this group. And who led me here? *You*!!! So please don't go away. I realize that you are very busy these days and will remain so for the next several months. But please just write and say that you are still around.;-)Pleeeeeeeease! Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Rob K > > > > I thought your original post was a good one, and your comments were > > spot on. Please stick around! Sarah and I greatly value your > > contribution to the list. > > > > Jon > > > > Dear RobK, > > I agree with Jon here. > The way I use dsg is to skim thro the messages and read only > ones that,for me, have beneficial things to say, and Robert, yours > are always ones that I read bec. I find your posts precise and > conducive to more understanding for me. > I regard you as one of my Kalayanamitta[s], so I would quite > miss you if you posted no more. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita > > > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: 30778 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael Depends on what kind of pleasure. Sensual pleasure is a big no-no. Equamnity or pleasure attined during different stags of Buddhism jhanas ;-) is ok but still have to be careful not to cling to it if one is still not an Arahant. Ken O 30779 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi All Again this morning, I recalled listening song in my memory. Then I stop and ponder, the song is pleasurable which means there is self that is feeling pleasure. then I realise that even simple lobha and dosa has this a me, myself or I in it. I think no wonder it said whenever there is lobha or dosa there is moha. I think no wonder Buddha always teaches this is not me. or myself or I in aggregates, in senses in so many diferent ways. I think no wonder satipatthana is for every momemt because each moment that left unattended will bring moha to the forefront which conditioned the tendecy for an I, me or myself. Then I think no wonder mindfullness without the accompanying knowlegde of the three characteristic of dhamma is not satipatthana, it will not eradicate kilesa (which is key for enlightment). I think no wonder Buddha is not just concern about the three unwholesome roots, he is concern about the underlying tendecies. I think becuase each akusala cittas (be it dosa or lobha or moha) will conditioned the tendecy of me, myself or I. thanks for lending your ears for my chattering away Ken O 30780 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello James, no you are not the only one who not only sees the irony, but the contradiction in cultivating tranquility, when one does not practice tranquility. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/29/04 1:40:32 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << I do admire the teachings, techniques, and retreats of Goenka, I think that they are beneficial only for the beginner. If one stays too long in the `Goenka Technique', stagnation and dullness are bound to manifest. Moreover, his entire system doesn't encourage individual exploration and self-sufficient- ness. It is somewhat a `cookie-cutter' spirituality.) So, anyway, I ask again, without the outside prop of a Goenka Meditation Retreat, how is one supposed to generate calm and tranquility from the developing of insight into suffering and stress?? ;-)) (Am I the only one who recognizes the irony of such a goal?) Metta, James >> 30781 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks I agree with you Larry the translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Bodhi agree with respect to not revealing any disparagement of jhana, and since there is no other place in the Sutta Pitaka where the jhanas are disparaged, we then are forced to question Sister Upalavanna's translation. Kind regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/29/04 1:40:32 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Message: 23 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:26:27 -0700 (MST) From: LBIDD@w... Subject: Re: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Robert, Please don't leave. I was just reacting to this interminable discussion on jhana which has been going on for years. I was getting tired of both sides of the debate. Plus I really thought this translation was odd. However, you are by far the better judge of translations, so I leave that to you. I sincerely regret if I offended you. Larry >> 30782 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello Howard, James, Swee Boon, Christine, Sarah and all, and thank-you ever so much for your kind and excellent comments and questions. First I believe we must accept that the Buddha was born into a culture and a period in which the Vedas, Puranas and Upanishads were the dominant liturgy. Therefore, he was a yogi who practiced within the context of the yogas. And, he articulated his teaching within that theoretical construct. While the historic Buddha chose not to embrace many of the concepts of Hinduism, still his philosophy and practice were well within the constraints of that liturgy. One need only read these three bodies of literature to find evidence for that fact. In the yoga sutras the basic theme is one practices meditation to give rise to absorption states (samadhis), which are numbered in 8 intervals, and culminate in nirvikalpa samadhi, which is otherwise known as nirvana. This concept of course is both philosophically and linguistically tied to the Buddhist concept of nirvana/nibbana and the jhanas. I find it rather intriguing that, while the Sutta pitaka is saturated and suffused with references to absorption (jhana), that one who claims to have a knowledge of the Tipitaka rejects that the Buddha taught an absorption (jhana) based philosophy and practice regimen. The Noble Eight Fold Path specifies Right Absorption (sama-samadhi). Right Absorption (sama-samadhi) is defined in terms of absorption (jhana) in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22.21). DN 22.21 "And what is right {absorption (sama-samadhi)}? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana..." through the fourth jhana. Often the Ariyapariyesana Sutta is invoked by 'dry' practitioners [those who are so unfortunate to have not given rise to absorption (jhana)] as a means of proving the Buddha rejected jhana as a path to nibbana. His rejection of the two teachers who taught him absorption (jhana) is often interpreted as Sid dharta Gotama rejecting absorption (jhana). However If you read further in that same sutta you will find that the Buddha did not reject the absorption states (jhanas) that he learned under the instruction of Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, but he only found the absorption states he learned from them were simply not the final liberation through cessation (nibbana). However, he clearly validated the importance of all of the jhanas at the end of that sutta. Please read the following: Ariyapariyesana Sutta, MN 26.28 "Listen, Bhikkhus, the Deathless has been attained. I shall instruct you. I shall teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as you are instructed, by realizing for yourselves here and now through direct knowledge you will soon enter upon and abide in that supreme goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the home life into homelessness." There are a few pages of discourse on dependent origination then he concludes with this: MN 26.34 "...quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana..." The Buddha continued to instruct his student to enter and abide in all of the 8 ecstatic absorption states (jhanas/dhyanas). And, he concluded by saying, for a bhikkhu who has learned to abide in the 8 jhanas... MN 26.42 "...his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom (panna). This bhikkhu is said to have blindfolded Mara, to have become invisible to the Evil One by depriving Mara's eye of opportunity, and to have crossed beyond attachment to the world. Often those who adhere to a 'dry' contemplative practice refer to one of Three Suttas in the Tipitaka that are believed to support their 'dry' practice. Three Suttas out of 34 suttas in the Digha Nikaya, and 152 in the Majjhima Nikaya, is only 1.6% of these two key volumes, which seems rather insignificant support for a rather flimsy claim. Just because there are three tiny references that support a 'dry' practice in the whole of the Pali canon, does not mean that Siddharta Gotama ever taught such a practice. These tiny and insignificant references could even be considered anomalous that could indicate errors in the Pali canon, such that the suttas or portions of those suttas in question might even be apocryphal. If you read any volume of the Pali canon I am confident you will find absorption (jhana) mentioned in almost every sutta. Therefore I believe it is reasonable to assume that absorption was a central concern of the historic Buddha. In conclusion I believe you will agree with me that the ecstatic absorption states (jhanas/dhyanas) were of central importance to the historic Buddha's teaching method, and the very means of arrival at cessation (nibbana). Best regards, Jeff Brooks Jhana Support Group A dialog support group for ecstatic contemplatives in a Buddhist context website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In a message dated 2/28/04 8:49:36 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << You say in the foregoing that "... absorption has these four characteristics, mindfulness (sati), a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana), insight into see things as they are (vipassana), and knowledge &vision which are the supramundane abilities." This sounds as if you are saying that complete enlightenment is achievable solely by mastering the jhanas. Were that the case, then one would sensibly ask what was novel in the Buddha's teaching, inasmuch as mastering the jhanas was already the quintessence of current yogic practice circa 500 BCE? With metta, Howard >> 30783 From: Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 0:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello James it is so good to hear from you again. May I only point out, as I have already done so, that Satipatthana is the practice and jhana is the attainment as a consequence of executing the practice correctly, thus it is right absorption (sama-samadhi) Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/28/04 8:49:36 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << I think this is a classic example of how people are going to read exactly what they want to read. And they are going to look for details that support their already established point-of-view and skip those details that don't. But really, this is very simple. Go back to the basics: The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path. Of the path, Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness are two different things. The Buddha described them differently, listed them differently, and intended them to be different. Right Mindfulness he defined as Satipatthana; Right Concentration he defined as Jhana. I now firmly believe that they both should be established in one's practice and pursued, just as the Buddha taught. There are no short- cuts. Satipatthana without Jhana is either too weak or mentally disturbing. Jhana without Satipatthana doesn't bring an end to the effluents. But, because they should both be present does that mean that they are the same thing or should be considered the same? No. >> 30784 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > I agree with you Larry the translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and > Bhikkhu > Bodhi agree with respect to not revealing any disparagement of jhana, > and since > there is no other place in the Sutta Pitaka where the jhanas are > disparaged, we > then are forced to question Sister Upalavanna's translation. ..... I agree with you that the Buddha never disparaged the jhanas or indicated that they are anything but very highly developed wholesome states. Would you indicate the lines in the latter translation that disparage them , so we can look at them in the various translations more carefully. If you also give the same lines in the TB and BB translations (without any alterations please;-)), that would be even better. If necessary, we can look at the Pali too with some assistance. Metta, Sarah ====== 30785 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Hi Mike and Christine, > Nice to see you around again, Mike, can we hope to read you more > frequently? :-) Yes, yes! It was pleasant to see your name in the message index, like a cool breeze on a hot day. Please do post more frequently, though I know that you may not have much spare time. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 30786 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:10pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi James and Christine, > I love the monkey story! > > James, I think when it says only the Buddha could eradicate vasana, it > means the Sammasambuddha rather than the Paccekabuddha. I don't > remember exactly what all the differences between them are. Both are > self-enlightened, but our Sammasambuddha is the Teacher and has > qualities the other (private, solitary, silent, etc) Buddhas don't. > > peace, > connie Thanks for this information. I guess it isn't related to the sutta I was referring to at all, or if it is it is only slightly related. I really love the monkey story too! Talk about someone who isn't in denial! Most people would scoff if told that they are going to be reborn a monkey. I don't think I mentioned anything about Paceekabuddha's in my last e- mail but I don't really know the difference between those and Sammasambuddha's. But, honestly, I am not sure if the Lord Buddha was 100% perfect in all ways. It seems to me that he still had a weak spot when it came to women. I was just reading AN123 "Don't Judge Others" where he is to be reported as saying: "Who, indeed is this female lay disciple Migasala, this foolish, inexperienced woman with a woman's wit? And who (in comparison) are those who have the knowledge of other persons' different qualities?' Woman's wit? As opposed to a man's wit? It doesn't seem that the Buddha was real big on gender equality. But, oh well, he doesn't have to be god-like to me for me to find refuge in him. He is still the supreme teacher of humans and devas. Metta, James 30787 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > Hello James it is so good to hear from you again. May I only point out, as I > have already done so, that Satipatthana is the practice and jhana is the > attainment as a consequence of executing the practice correctly, thus it is right > absorption (sama-samadhi) > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks I believe you are quite mistaken in this belief. Satipatthana doesn't result in any of the Jhana states. To summarize, the Buddha described Satipatthana as the `only direct path' and jhana as a `peaceful abiding in the here and now'. Perhaps you should go back and re-read the appropriate suttas and stop changing the words to suit your taste. Metta, James 30788 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! RECORD ACHIEVED :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Hi Christine (& Icaro & All), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello all, Thanks for your kind comments and all the smiles on what, I have to confess, was rather a bad 'hair' day for the moderators. I don't mind admitting I was close to pulling mine out and beginning to wonder if it was really the hair (more gel?, trim?, new style?) or perhaps my poor eye-sight playing tricks;-) Many thanks to all those who are trying to encourage RobK (I'd like to add a pleeeeaaase!!) and to Nina for your fair comments too. I’d like to thank all the contributors for helping us forget what bad hair days are almost every day these days and especially to the very regular contributors who form the backbone of DSG, even while we’re on holiday and who make our task such a pleasure. Of these, Larry is certainly one of the most consistent and cool;-). Without his keen, questioning approach and regular installments of ADL, Satipatthana Sutta commentaries and now Visuddhimagga, many other invaluable posts would not be written. Different views and understandings are natural and healthy as I see it. I’ve learnt so much from all the questioning and probing (or poking;-)) of my comments here. At home, I just get agreement - zap, end of discussion;-) Like Nina, I've also learnt so much over the years from K.Sujin's patient example when those with completely different views and understandings, sometimes sent by other teachers, would challenge every word she said, sometimes not very politely either. She'd always stress that knowing the present reality, nama or rupa, even at these times, is most precious. "The dhamma is not in the book, it's at this moment", she'd repeat. May the following lines you quoted, Chris, be a condition for all of us to have compassion and patience when the Dhamma is indeed so ‘hard to see’ for others as it is for ourselves. May we all continue sharing and learning together. “Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will never see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream." .... C:>generally a safe and > supportive place to ask questions and learn, and to occasionally, > disagree. .... Chris, truly we’re still learning on the job, often walking a tightrope, too tightly strung for some, too loosely for others;-) Let’s hope we can make it an even ‘safer’ and more ‘supportive’ spot to be with just an occasional adjustment as required, giving a little slack for our own eyesight ‘obscured by darkness’ from time to time and that of others too. To RobK or anyone else - we listen carefully off-list if anyone is having a problem. We like to try and help and learn to do a better job if we can. .... > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :- > ) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) > > Talkative lot, aren't you?! :-) .... ;-) Keep smiling and talking. I am now;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 30789 From: Eznir Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Dear Howard, -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that there is, indeed, a mix of predecessor conditioning and simultaneous conditioning. In particular, I think that vi~n~nana, namarupa, and salayatana are co-occurring and mutually conditioning. -------------------------------------------------- eznir: I would put it this way, predecessor conditioning occurs in every progressive moment in a backdrop of simultaneous conditioning. That doesn't mean that simultaneous conditioning takes a back seat in the day to day affairs, but that they interact together. I think that, predecessor conditioning is the cause of simultaneous conditioning's existence. While simultaneous conditioning is the cause of predecessor conditioning's operation. In this way they act together in unison! I think these two as sequential and simultaneous modes of operation of paticcasamuppada. While we are on the topic of paticcasamuppada, which is a structural framework, I would say that, existence(persistence of 5-hold-aggr) itself stands on the basic structure, which is that: When there is this, this is. With the arising of this, this arises. When there is not this, this is not. With the cessation of this, this ceases. [see Culasakuludayi Sutta MN-79] The 12-factored paticcasamuppada is just an example of this basic structure. On a careful reading of the Suttas, one would find that, all of the Teachings in it are signifying this basic fundamental structure of things in general. One would find statements like, "with this…… abandon that" or "with this….. one arrives at that" and so on. In certain suttas this basic structure is explicitly stated in a way similar to paticcasamuppada. If I could find the time to locate them, I will post them. I think what all this means is that if the structure to the persistence of this entity(5-hold-aggr) is known, it would show a way to dismantle it, and therefore realize the cessation of Dukkha! Perhaps, this is what Ven. Sariputta meant when he said, "One who sees paticcasamuppada sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees paticcasamuppada". [see Mahahattipadopama Sutta MN-28]. More food for thought; what precisely is these two types of conditioning, or these two modes of operaton of the ps. metta eznir 30790 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings. Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Nina, and Mike :-) > > This is a good point - my previous spiritual path valued 'righteous > anger'; it was O.K. to be outraged by cruelty, tragedy, rudeness > and incompetence. One of the hardest lessons to understand, since I > have learned about buddhism in daily life, is coming to see > that 'dosa' is 'dosa', no matter how I dress it up. > > Nice to see you around again, Mike, can we hope to read you more > frequently? :-) .... Hear, hear with your last comment to Mike. Anumodana in learning this hard lesson. And isn't it also the same with regard to attachment and ignorance too? We desperately try to justify all our defilements (and bad-hair days;-)), not realizing how much harder these avoidance strategies are making life for us and those around us. I find those justifications creep in all the time, but, slowly, slowly with right undestanding and helpful reminders, there can be a little more dressing down (and travelling lighter;-)). Metta, Sarah ======== 30791 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:18pm Subject: Dear group, Thanks for the kind messages on and off-list. Larry of course I understand, I was mainly reacting to the tone of the group in general. I feel this is not an easy place to discuss Dhamma. I am spoiled: when I talk in Thailand or Japan the people want to know every detail, they are so respectful of Dhamma. On dsg some members seem to enjoy arguments and that is of course as it must be, but I often feel that I am forcing Dhamma on people here. And that is not the right way. It only adds to kamma. In the Dhammapada VIII(2) there is the story of seven monks in the time of Kassapa Buddha. This was in the last half of the sasana of Kassapa, when the behaviour of monks and respect for Dhamma was declining. They were greatly concerned and energised by this and thinking 'so long as our religion has not yet disappeared' (burlingame 222) they would endeavour, went to a mountain to develop alone. Some attained enlightenment but the others died of starvation. Much later in the time of this Buddha era one of those who starved was reborn as Bahiya. I've always loved this story. I can't follow their great, great path, but where I live in Japan the mountains are almost at my doorstep. I always find being in them conducive to contemplation. I will try to reply to Michael's question later today. RobertK 30792 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Ken O, S:I’m glad to read all your reflections;-)You make many wise comments. However, I’m not sure I’m with you on a couple of points here: --- Ken O wrote: > > Dont speak if it is not dhamma is a precept which I consider deeply > because whenever when I talk, is it because of conceit, or moha or or > aversion. As I said earlier in my email, simple pleasantaries could > be a result of our need to comply societal values or conceit. ..... S:Just like when we talk about any other ‘situation’, such as walking, sitting on the cushion, discussing dhamma or washing dishes, there can be kusala and akusala cittas in between the many sense door processes. In Bangkok, I actually discussed washing dishes with Lodewijk;-) We might feel washing dishes is a waste of time or not a ‘dhamma situation’, but Lodewijk was saying how he likes to help in the kitchen so that Nina has more time for her writing. This is just a simple example of kusala whilst washing dishes. When we utter pleasantries, such as in the lift or in the shop, it can be with metta for those around. Most people prefer to see a smile or hear a pleasantry than to see a frown. It can be a consideration to others to listen and discuss what they’d like to hear rather than imposing our own agenda (dhamma or silence) on them, though I know you’re not suggesting this. I teach my students to be considerate and courteous in these ways, because I think we’re already experts on thinking of ourselves and opportunities to care for others are precious. Living in the centre of Hong Kong, we have a lot of visitors passing through, many with no interest in dhamma. Usually I’d rather just be reading texts or writing here, but showing kindness and patience to others is never wrong. I think this is the point we were discussing with Vince in Bangkok. We can only learn more about our ‘own’ cittas when they arise. Again, I’ve learnt a lot from K.Sujin’s example over the years. I remember when she stayed with my family in England, she would wander round my mother’s large garden, politely taking an interest and listening to my mother’s explanations, helping in the kitchen with metta, telling my parents to simply call her ‘Sujin’ (James, she’d tell you to call her whatever you liked;-)) and then discussing dhamma just with those who specially visited for this purpose and with this interest. If we have an idea that some situations or topics are more suitable for sati and wisdom to grow, again I think there’s a subtle (or not so subtle?) clinging to ‘occasion’ or limitation of the opportunity for kusala to grow. Defilements will arise according to accumulations whether we’re discussing dish-washing or dhamma, I think. Whatever the topic, it’s conditioned anyway;-). ... <...> >There can be many enlightening > experience just reflecting before or after or during our talk. When > we talk it is also rupa that talk, reflecting on the three > characterisic on it can also be a wonderful experience. ... S:This is just thinking about the 3 characteristics, different from direct understanding of realities as they appear. ... >IMHO a > sombering fact about talking is that when we talk other than dhamma > latent tendecy will be reconditioned be it a necessity for us to > communicate with friends, family etc. .... S:Again, it depends on the citta, rather than thinking or worrying about latent tendencies or the topic. .... >Sometimes when I get carried > away then latent tendecy has already manifested. Definitely it is > still up to individual though ;-). ..... S:We’ve talked before abour ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’ lobha (attachment). There’s bound to be attachment arising at any time, even now as we look at the screen. The aim is not to avoid it (with more clinging to the self without lobha), but to begin to understand it, not by rearranging the deck-chairs, but by living naturally and easily with family and friends, working and so on. Life should be easier not harder with more understanding. I like your examples of ‘going against the stream’ and encouraging your family and friends with compassion. As you said: ‘There is no need to purposely do it or to meditate about it. It is right here and right now.’ I also thank you for your reminders of subtle kilesa and moha which we mostly have no idea about at all, especially when the feelings are neutral as you say. This has turned out far longer than intented.Let me sign off and requote from an earlier post some textual comments on the question of topic and wise attention, particularly relating to this point: “MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention.” Comments welcome! Metta, Sarah QUOTE from earlier post: >Sarah: “Antony gave this helpful quote: Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech": "There is another place in the commentaries where it mentions that not all talk about kings and thieves and ministers (and armies, dangers and wars) etc. is idle chatter -it depends on the context in which it is spoken because even the Buddha sometimes he would use them as examples to illustrate a point of Dhamma. So in the context of Dhamma sometimes you have to talk about these things - and talk about food or whatever. So it depends on the context in which it's been spoken - if it is of benefit to somebody in a Dhammic sense in order to teach them some aspect of the Dhamma then you can talk about these things." ***** For most of us, most the time our talk is ‘idle chatter’. However, I do think the Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2), with the emphasis on ayoniso & yoniso manasikara (unwise and wise attention) is helpful in this connection: “What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance increases in him and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he attends to.” ***** B.Bodhi helpfully refers to some commentary notes here: 1.“MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention. That mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed.” 2. “MA illustrates the growth of the taints through unwise attention as follows: When he attends to gratification in the five cords of sensual pleasure, the taint of sensual desire arises and increases; when he attends to gratification in the exalted states (the jhanas), the taint of being arises and increases; and when he attends to any mundane things through the four “perversions” (of permanence, pleasure, self and beautiful etc), the taint of ignorance arises and increases.” 3. “MA says that up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry,attention denotes insight (vipassanaa), but at the moment of the path it dentotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (aaramma.na)...” “ ============================================================= 30793 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:13pm Subject: 1)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > RobertK: > > Now the only path > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not at > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane jhanas. > > Michael: > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on what the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. ==================================================================== Dear Michael, I supply a summary only. In the commentary to Aane~njasappaaya sutta (MN 106) it is said: Uparipannasa-Atthakatha 4.67 Samaapatti.m taava pada.t.thaana.m katvaa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa When he has made the attainment of jhana the proximate cause of insight and increased vipassana, arahatta.m ga.nhanto bhikkhu naava.m vaa u.lumpaadiini vaa nissaaya and he attains arahatship, the bhikkhu who is as it were depending on a boat or a raft mahogha.m taritvaa paara.m gacchanto viya na kilamati. croses the great flood and reaches the other side, is not tired. ========================== The above is the path of the great ones of the past who attained arahatship using mundane jhana as basis. These are the highest type of arahant. Below is the path of the Sukkhavipassaka- the very lowest type of arahant. Sukkhavipassako pana paki.n.nakasa'nkhaare sammasitvaa arahatta.m ga.nhanto But the person with dry insight who has thoroughly known the particular conditioned dhammas and attains arahatship, baahubalena sota.m chinditvaa paara.m gacchanto viya kilamati. , after he has as it were cut the stream with much force and reaches the other side, is tired. ___ Bhikkhu Bodhi gives some other notes from the commentary of this sutta (M.106): In the sutta Ananda asks the Buddha, "a bhikkhu is practising thus: 'If it were not it would be mine; it will not be and it will not be mine. What exists, what has come to be, that I am abandonding. Thus he attains equanimity. Venerable sir , does such a one attain Nibbana?."......The note by bodhi (1021)from Majjima attahakatha, "Anandas question is intended to elicit from the Buddha an account of the practice of the dry-insight meditator(sukkhavipassaka) who attains arahatship without depending on a jhanic attainment." Sutta "This is deathless, namely the liberation of mind through not clinging" note 1023 Majjhima atthakatha says that the arahstship of the dry- insight meditator (sukkhavipassaka) is intended. RobertK 30794 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:13pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: (much snipping) > It would be a great loss to this group if you should > leave, and, selfishly, a loss for me as well, as I learn so much > from you - you are responsible for many of us joining dsg in the > first place, and I'm sure you've written a high percentage of the > Useful Posts. Misunderstandings are just that, and can be cleared > away with goodwill. Please reconsider. As one who has been spending a lot of time in the Useful Posts these days, I can vouch for a high percentage of the posts being Rob's. As a result, after Nina, Rob has become my principle teacher these days. So I'll add a voice in the selfish-loss column and hope he sticks around. I was wondering about the history of this group. I guess in the pre- internet days, you corresponded through newsletters, and while there were therefore fewer exchanges, there was also less discord. And more time to reflect on what one read. Nevertheless, and for what it's worth, I think the flow of ideas in discussion here can become like a form of practice, conditioning kusula day in day out and giving many opportunities (though far less than in any other forum I've participated in) to be aware of dosa and process it skillfully. Metta, Philip P.S I wish I could hear one of your talks, Rob. But if I recall you live in Kyushu - too far. But hopefully one day... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Larry, > > I am no expert on pali, I got the translation off metta.lk.; > > can you show me where it is wrong. > > > > ""Personally, I don't care whether people meditate or study or just > > > listen, but we might notice whatever desire or aversion arises in > > regard > > > to that, rather than going to extraordinary lengths to rationalize > > > whatever we do or don't do. "" > > > > Could you clarify this statement. I am prepared to explain any > > comments I made in my post. If you disagree with them please say > > which ones and why. Larry, I have been busy lately but it seems > > whenever I check in many of the posts on dsg have a tone like > this. > > Time for me to move on. I will stay to wrap up this conversation. > > RobertK > > > > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > Hi Robert, > > > > > > This is a very poor translation of the Sallekha Sutta (MN 8) you > > have > > > given. Here is a better one: > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html > > > 30795 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:23pm Subject: 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael > > RobertK: > > > > Now the only path > > > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > > > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not > at > > > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane > jhanas. > > > > Michael: > > > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in > the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what > you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and > the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on what > the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. > ==================================================================== Dear Michael, This is a repeat of an old post I made about the way of vipassana and the way of samatha. When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (Mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Also found in several places in majjhima commentary it says "Meditate (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na)[i.e the objects of samatha] with the meditation (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according to anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala, it is far more than only thinking about Dhamma. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter and palihawadana) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. The jhana labhi after he leaves mundane jhana must also develop this type of special samadhi. The sukkha-vipassaka develops this profound samadhi without having attained mundane jhana. Relating this to the suttas there are hundreds if not thousands of suttas where the Buddha taught the way of insight into the khandhas (aggregates) ayatanas(sense fields) and dhatus (elements). I give one example: Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sotapanna?' 'By a monk who is a sotapanna, friend Kotthita, it is these same five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. Indeed, friend, it is possible for a monk who is a sotapanna ... by so pondering these five khandhas ... to realize the fruits of once-returning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sakadagami .......method by one who is an anagami (non-returner)?' 'By such a one, friend Kotthita, it is these five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. It is possible, friend, for an anagami by so pondering to realize the fruits of arahatship'. 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self. For the arahat, there is nothing further to be done, nor is there return to upheaping of what is done. Nevertheless, these things, if practised and enlarged, conduce to a happy existence to self- possession even in this present life.'End sutta _________ It is not a matter of whether one is sitting or lying or walking or standing as to whether these khandas(paramattha dhammas) can be insighted. It depends on understanding. Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to understand what meditation means in the Buddhist sense. RobertK 30796 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:25pm Subject: 3)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael > > > RobertK: > > > > Now the only path > > > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > > > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not > at > > > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane > jhanas. > > > > Michael: > > > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in > the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what > you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and > the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on what > the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. > ==================================================================== Dear Michael, The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin)By Buddhaghosa gives many details about lokiya [mundane]jhana and lokuttara jhana: P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth"ENDQUOTE It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala including the mundane jhanas. It is not saying to avoid kusala or jhana , simply that these are very much part of the causes of samsara. The start of the next chapter is where it discusses the eight-fold path which leads out of samsara The Discourse on lokuttara (transcendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes." So Buddhaghosa clearly distinguishes lokiya jhana from lokuttara jhana. Even the sukkha vipassaka , dry-insight worker attains this type of jhana (momentarily) at the moment he experiences nibbana. And because of its special properties, including samadhi, it is considered as being of the same strength as first (mundane) jhana. RobertK 30797 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: Paramattha is through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. .... S: ??? Please explain. .... > Before The Buddha, all beings held Atta. Atta is only released at the > first gateway to Nibbana. .... S: Of course you mean wrong view of atta. No atta to exist in the first place. .... >If someone is not ariyan then she or he > will hold atta view however she or he is saying I do not have atta I > just have anatta. If already passed through the gateway and on the > path no journey is needed. .... S: No more journey to eradicate atta view anyway. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Whether you are talking like this or not paramattha dhamma is > paramattha dhamma. Whether Htoo exists or not paramattha dhamma is > paramattha dhamma. Whether Htoo lives in Taiwan or Singapore or Korea > or Japan, no one is living there but only nama and rupa there. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Fully agreed (but as others would say, you need to know where you live when you book your ticket to Bkk;-)) .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :-) Just smile. I do not laugh. Can you slow down realities? In > which way? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Of course not, that's why I was questioning the special focus or lasting concentration. For example, by the time there's a focus on the sound just heard, it's long since gone and other realities are appearing through different senses. Does this make any sense or are we still smiling at odds here? .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate > Sotapatti Magga Citta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: The understanding of anatta has to begin with theoretical right understanding of anatta and the tools and map have to be laid out accordingly. If they ar laid out with an idea of atta, along the route more understanding of atta rather than anatta will be developed. No point in taking the journey in this case as I see it. .... S...I don't believe any citta or cetasika stays at all, > falling away as soon as it has arisen. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Are you showing up that you have arrived at the milestone > called Bhanga Nana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: LOL, as you remind us, no Htoo or Sarah to arrive anywhere;-) Again, we'd better be sure we start with the right tools and the right map. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I asked because someone in your list once clearly mentioned > that you are Mahayana. And there are messages that are not with > Theravada teachings. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: ???? I've read every message on DSG and to my knowledge you're the first to suggest this;-) Perhaps you mixed me up with someone else??? Recently, the only threads with any mention of Mahayana teachings have been ones that were comparing the use of terms such as sabhava and paramattha which can be difficult for those familiar with Nagarjuna or Mahayana to appreciate. It would be unkind of me to ask you to look for a post where I switched sides because I know you won't find one (but you're welcome to try;-)). We're relaxed about occasional lines and references to other schools but not with big slabs of quoted material from them. You can contact us off-list anytime you think we've gone too soft;-). .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: To grasp the idea necessary for realization of realities, > learning all Pali language will be futile but a little is sufficed. > But necessary words need to be learned in detail. There are many > shifts. .... S: I completely agree. I also appreciated your detailed response to our friend who likes to change words in translations without careful consideration of the meaning of terms like vitakka, vicara, samadhi and so on. .... > As you are just about to be on the right path you should not think > that there is 'you'. You should not think that this is mine this is > my turn etc etc. This is my real kindness. Please do not attach to > anything. All the same, there is no 'me' no 'Htoo'. .... S: Right...no me or you to be on the right path either;-) .... > > Just a citta arises and immediately falls away. Due to that citta, > cittaja rupa arises at the same time of arising of that citta. That > cittaja rupa is the actions of this typing. Arising of these words > has conditions. Nothing arises without any condition. .... S: Good tools getting sharpened all the time. .... > > There is no country and there is no continent but just vanna, sadda, > gandha, rasa, pathavi, tejo, vayo, apo etc etc. .... S: Excellent! .... When is your next DSG > meeting? How long will it be? How many will be attending? What are > the activities at the meeting? How much is a day stay at hotels there > where the meeting will be? I will be looking forward to hearing from > you, Sarah. .... S: I could also answer with paramattha dhammas as you do to my personal ones;-) Every Saturday there is an English discussion with A.Sujin, Sukin and other friends (small group). Azita will be there in the middle of April just after Easter (dates?). I don't know if she will persuade others to join. We weren't planning to go away, but we could be persuaded to go (if you or others wished to join)for the first of her two weekends as I noticed I have an Easter holiday then. It's just informal discussion like here, but face to face. Everyone makes their own accomodation arrangements according to budget and so on. Best to be close to the Foundation. Please contact Sukin, Betty or me off-list for any other details. Everyone would be delighted to have you join and you'd be taken good care of. Ken O lives quite close, so I know he'd consider joining again. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > May you really see Anatta. .... S:Thanks. Remember, no 'Sarah' or 'Htoo' to see;-) Metta, Sarah ===== > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 30798 From: Ken O Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Sarah k: I think I have said that one should not followed this precept strictly if you are a householder . This precept is more for monks/nuns. Hence Buddh speaks only five precepts for householders. I am not following it strictly either. I just saying be very mindful on the motivations behind each talk. It may have unconsciously conditioned akusala without one knowing it. S: > In Bangkok, I actually discussed washing dishes with Lodewijk;-) We might feel washing dishes is a waste of time or not a ‘dhamma situation’, but Lodewijk was saying how he likes to help in the kitchen so that Nina has more time for her writing. This is just a simple example of kusala whilst washing dishes. k: Why a need to discuss the washing of dishes in the first place? Anyway I did not say that simple things like walking or washing dishes are not dhamma, they are dhamma and they are explain in sattipatthana. S: When we utter pleasantries, such as in the lift or in the shop, it can be with metta for those around. Most people prefer to see a > smile or hear a pleasantry than to see a frown. k: Is there a need to give a smile just because most people prefer to see one in the first place? I dont think just because we did not utter pleasantaries for other first, we are not polite. That is called conditioned by self view or societal view. S> I teach my students to be considerate and courteous in these ways, > because I think we’re already experts on thinking of ourselves and > opportunities to care for others are precious. Living in the centre of Hong Kong, we have a lot of visitors passing through, many with no interest in dhamma. K: Definitely when we teach others who do not know much about dhammas with societal moral values and ethics that should be followed. Just like I teach my son to be courteous S> Again, I’ve learnt a lot from K.Sujin’s example over the years. I > remember when she stayed with my family in England, she would wander round my mother’s large garden, politely taking an interest and listening to my mother’s explanations, helping in the kitchen with metta, telling my parents to simply call her ‘Sujin’ (James, she’d tell you to call her whatever you liked;-)) and then discussing dhamma just with those who specially visited for this purpose and with this interest. k: Did you see Buddha doing that when he visit a house and start this type of conversation ;-). She is lay person that is alright. S: > If we have an idea that some situations or topics are more suitable for sati and wisdom to grow, again I think there’s a subtle (or not so subtle?) clinging to ‘occasion’ or limitation of the opportunity for kusala to grow. Defilements will arise according to accumulations whether we’re discussing dish-washing or dhamma, I think. Whatever the topic, it’s conditioned anyway;-). k: Yes, but why create more when we can be more mindful of our motivations. I say to you once in Bkk that if we are not doing anything kusala then it is aksuala :). That is why zealous is conditioned to arise as one knows the danger of not guarding the senses because any moment Mara will attack. It is a natural condition that is not need to purposely to mindful but understanding of this will conditioned zeal to be mindful. > ... > S:This is just thinking about the 3 characteristics, different from > direct understanding of realities as they appear. k: If you dont think intellectually in the first place and ponder its meaning, it will not conditioned direct understanding. We must first start with right understaning at the pannati level. If we dont even consider dhamma in the pannati level for eg reading dhamma books, there is no way we can conditioned right direct knowledge. k: Sarah I think you and Jon has misunderstood about purposely avoiding or self impose. If right understand arose that know the danger of useless talk, one will know why one will naturally stop talking unnecessary. It is something one have to experience oneself to know its meaning and to know that akusala is everywhere. And this does not affect ones live. In fact this condition zeal to be more mindful and ardent. k: As what Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech", Buddha only talks about kings etc only with the intention to teach the dhamma. Other than that he dont mentioned it. How could Buddha who said that such talk is low talk and then encourage others to follow it. It will not be possible. Hence one only talk about this if one wish to seed some dhamma on others or not one will not talk about it (strictly speaking that is for monks/nuns). So do you think when you start a conversation about dish washing is the intention to seed dhamma. So it is, good for you, if it is not then we have to think what is the motivation behind it. When you quote Sabhassa sutta, idle chatter is definitely unwise attention. Ken O 30799 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 0:13am Subject: 4)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael > wrote: > > > RobertK: > > > > Now the only path > > > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > > > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is not > at > > > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane > jhanas. > > > > Michael: > > > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in > the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain what > you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and > the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on what > the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. > ==================================================================== Dear Michael, The Netti-pakarana (587) "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight. Nevertheless all types of kusala - of which samatha is one of the highest- should be developed as all kusala assists insight. From Ledi sayadaw http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm ""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who· encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who · encounters a Buddha in person, but · who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs · to study the sermon and the exposition, and then · to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. The commentaries on the Vinaya Pitaka and the Anguttara-nikaya indicate will be one thousand years for Arahats who attain mastery of jhana with abhinna, one thousand years for Arahats who are sukkhavipassaka, one thousand years for Non-returners, one thousand years for Once-returners, and one thousand years for Stream-winners. RobertK