31000 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 11:16pm Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff, Jeff: From my point of view, the three suttas on sati, (Anapanasati, Satipatthana and Maha-satipatthana) are all the same practice regimen, they are just described as beginning, intermediate and advanced level instruction. If we assume this is true, then any differences between the suttas must have to do with the focus of the instruction. James: I don't agree with your point of view. The Buddha didn't say that those suttas described `levels' of practice. I believe that those suttas are describing the same practice from different perspectives. The Buddha only described `levels' of practice when it came to jhana. Jeff, the rest of this post is very confused and seems to be arguing issues that I didn't state. I don't feel inclined to go through and try to sort out my true positions from the false positions that you attribute to me. Go back to my original post and directly quote from that and then respond to the quotes. Your paraphrases of my post are false and misleading. If you do that I will respond further. Metta, James ps. I hope you have an enjoyable time at Wat Promkunaram this weekend. Say Hi to Ajahn Winai and Phra Wichit for me! ;-) 31001 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 3:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Dear Jeff, Have you ever known postgraduate level and doctorial level regarding those three suttas you mentioined that is anapanasati, satipatthana, and mahasatipatthana? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 31002 From: Philip Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 3:38am Subject: Re: "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi James. > James: Yes, I can tell. Maybe you want to be liked by everybody as > well?? P: Maybe. But it just seems to happen that way. Brahma-viharas, I guess. I have done my share of lashing out at people in other forums, but those days are done, hopefully. >James: Hehehe?E promise that I won't be making `constant' references > to any such thing. But, of course, if you start to get too slobbery > I can't promise that I won't slap you down a bit. P: I don't think the Buddha taught bitch slapping. But then again, I guess he was rough on overly enthusiastic students, as in the sutta Rob K quoted before he left us. Before you do, however, please let your finger linger over the "send" button and ask yourself honestly if you are adding to understanding of dhamma, or just defending your own views. See "Lord of speech" in that excellent link you provided me. I think you fancy yourself as a Buddhist writer - but a Buddhist is as a Buddhist does, not as he or she writes. And bitch slapping without very good cause is not good Buddhism. >You remind me a bit of a Labrador puppy: just so excited > and must be petted by everyone RIGHT THIS SECOND! P: I am excited, that's for sure. Can you remember when you first found out about the Abhidhamma? I still haven't come down, and it's been about two weeks. I guess it's because I now have a foundation of reality to practice brahma-viharas on. It's all coming together. > My nature is > that I immediately want to train such exuberance into something > majestic. I am a natural teacher, what can I say? P: Good lord, James. what sort of Buddhist would want to be majestic? This makes you sound like the "Buddhist" Kevin Kline played in A Fish Called Wanda. And it makes me doubt your dhamma goods. > James: That is simply not true. You misunderstand. (snip) I believe her `understanding' of the > Abhidhamma is obviously far superior than my own. P:I should hope so. Please keep that in mind when you address her. > My motives were not nefarious. P:I know. I never meant to suggest that. > because this group would become very boring if everyone agreed with > each other all the time. There wouldn't be any growth, only > stagnation. Healthy debate is a way to strengthen ideas and develop > greater understanding. It is difficult to learn and grow in a vacuum. P: Well, "boring" is not a word I would use, because Buddhism is not about stimulation. But you may have a point about the benefits of debate. Personally, I've been through enough of it in other forums and I would prefer to practice in a common, shared tradition, with a healthy amount of correction and gentle suggestions. But to each his own. I don't have it on hand, but the post Rob K wrote about the dhamma flowing like a stream must have contained something about what I'm getting at. Arrogance (see "majestic") and jarring statements ("I don't think your teaching is true dhamma" or whatever it was you said to Nina in that post last week) don't lead to growth, unless of course it's helping the recipient learn more about what to do with dosa. >Do you want me to leave this > group, Philip? Just ask me directly to leave and I will leave. Wow. What power...hmm...I feel like God. If I said yes, would that make me....majestic? ;) > James: Nina and I have been corresponding off-list and I don't think > that would happen. She knows that I have a deep respect for her and > her dedication to the dhamma. Believe it or not, she isn't made of > glass. ;-)) She can take some constructive criticisms from one person > without forfeiting her greater vision of teaching and spreading the > dhamma. Ph: You're right. She doesn't need me to stick up for her. > they were not discussing the death of a life partner! What were you > reading? They were discussing how Nina teaches the dhamma; how she > can best present the dhamma and Abhidhamma so as to reach more > people. There was nothing sacrosanct about that discussion that I > couldn't refer to it. Ph: You're right. It was the passage I quoted in the post that referred to the death of a life partner. You're absolutely right here. > James: Be careful, your wife may get very jealous! ;-)) Ph: Too late. She has already removed your photo from the album. Watch out, James. She knows weird mountain voodoo stuff from Aomori prefecture. Well, as I said in another post about that spammer, it's foolish to make wishes about other people's behaviour. You will do what you will do. And the obvious think to do if your mesgs continue to bug me is not read them. I do want to hear more about Egypt. I wonder if the pyramids are what put that "majestic" crap in your head? ;) Metta, Phil p.s any replies off list please. I've taken up enough board space with this. 31003 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] : Bangkok Icaro, Mike and all --- icarofranca wrote: > Hi Mike ... > I use the IBM Viva Voice Standrad with plenty of success! It's > more or less cumbersome to install and tweak out, but it works > wonderfully! > I barely take hand on keyboard! And I use Dragon Naturally Speaking in my office. Actually, Tom Westheimer, one of our lurking members, runs a business that supplies and trains in the use of VR (voice-recognition) software, and he's always happy to help. I can give his email address to anyone who's interested. Jon 31004 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Michael and James Personally, I have no problem with any of the following statements: 1. All dhammas are to be known as nama and rupa 2. All dhammas are either nama or rupa 3. There are only nama and rupa although each carries its own connotations and emphasis. I think that complete absence of 'ontological commitment' in ordinary speech (even about dhammas) is not really practical, as it puts too much constraint on expression. However, it's good to be reminded from time to time that all dhammas are indeed conditioned and insubstantial. It is also, as I see it, important to understand how dhammas differ from concepts ;-)) Jon --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon & James, > > Cannot resist to butt in one of my 'hobby horses' in this list: > > Would be better to say 'all dhammas are known as namas and rupas > but they don't really exist, are mere appearances'. In this way one > is reaffirming the psychological focus in the teachings with no > ontological commitment. 31005 From: Larry Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 6:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha Hi Nina, Here are a couple of thoughts in reply: First, do you agree that from "contact" to "clinging" in Dependent Arising is the same as consciousness process? If so, what role does "clinging" play? My contention is that it is accumulation. Second, I can see why you would want to maintain the distinguishing characteristics of lobha and moha, but it seems to me in Dependent Arising all three root cittas are included in the category of "thirst" (tanha). What about that? Larry 31006 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi James, op 05-03-2004 07:47 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: J: I look into your statement "There are only > nama and rupa" much deeper than you assume. > > This is an ontological statement, a statement of existence, and so it > should withstand certain criteria of evaluation... N: A very kind and gentle James, in the temple with an angelic little girl who has devoutedly folded her hands and follows James everywhere, imitating him all the time. This is a mental image I have of a snapshot, taken at a certain point in time. This moment has fallen away long ago and it never comes back in the cycle of birth and death. Kindness cannot stay, it has to fall away, that is the dukkha aspect. I like my story, my mental image, I wish it would last, but that is only an illusion. Who is James? Is there anything else but mental phenomena and physical phenomena arising and falling away? Cittas are running on, succeeding one another. It seems that thinking lasts, but yesterday's thinking has completely gone, how can we call it James. Is seeing James, is hearing James? Bodily phenomena like eyesense, earsense, heat or cold are arising and then falling away but they are replaced so long as there are conditions for them to be replaced. When your last moment in this life has come, nama and rupa fall away just as they do now. But so long as we are in the cycle kamma will produce rebirth-consciousness again, and if rebirth is in a five khandhas plane also rupas will be produced from the first moment of life. That is the Dependent Origination, and this concerns our life now. It is not some abstract theory. Your relatives and friends in this world will only keep a mental image of James, and your name will be remembered, but not for long, and soon you will be forgotten. That is the story of life. To me the Abhidhamma is not a subject of academic interest suitable for debating. It explains the story of life. If I can help someone to see that the Abhidhamma deals with our life I am delighted. I like to share what I learnt and make the texts come to life. But do not expect from me a philosophical, or even a logical answer. I like to give plain style, direct answers. Above I tried to explain in my non-academical way the difference between concept or conventional truth and absolute reality. It depends on your interest whether you like me to explain more of the ADL Book. Do feel free. As for me, I need a lot of time to concentrate on my own work, my Thai impressions. I cannot answer questions immediately, have to take my time. It is very good if others butt in. Moreover, a way of explaining is a personal matter. That is why it is good we are here in a forum. If the style of one person is not suitable to you, and this is very understandable, someone else's may. Now some chatting. Your father must miss you, therefore he likes you to write daily, and are you the only child left after the family tragedy? you could make your letters like a diary. How did your parents get over it? I am glad you explained about the use of language in your family. I find it admirable that you became a teacher in English language, and writing in such a good style; how did you manage it all? And you published books? Did you take the shrine with your sister's ashes to Cairo? Did this help you to get over the loss? I am just like the star kids asking so many questions. Remember: adults are just as sensitive as kids. Nina. 31007 From: shakti Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] : Bangkok Jon, Mike, Icaro and others, Thanks for the info on voice activated software. As I will be taking a month off from work and computers while traveling in Thailand, I am hopeful that I won't need it when I. However, I will still check out the program just in case. Thanks, Shakti Jonothan Abbott wrote: Icaro, Mike and all --- icarofranca wrote: > Hi Mike ... > I use the IBM Viva Voice Standrad with plenty of success! It's > more or less cumbersome to install and tweak out, but it works > wonderfully! > I barely take hand on keyboard! And I use Dragon Naturally Speaking in my office. Actually, Tom Westheimer, one of our lurking members, runs a business that supplies and trains in the use of VR (voice-recognition) software, and he's always happy to help. I can give his email address to anyone who's interested. Jon 31008 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Dear Philip, don't worry, I had to laugh about what you write. I won't be packing in! Although sometimes the work is so overwhelming, there are so many posts and I have to write now about Thailand. I was tempted to contemplate a sabbatical, like Robert :-)) But I do not want to let Sarah, Jon, and Larry with his Vis. thread down. I was glad James appreciated Lodewijk, as Howard does also. James and I understand each other and he knows my sensitiveness. You read now those old posts about Abhidhamma, and that is past for him. Besides, we had, at that time, off line very nice exchanges after our Abhidhamma clash. I did not see rudeness in his recent post, and the fact that he thinks I go against the Buddha's teachings, well, that is the usual. Here I think really like a Dutch proverb: unknown is unloved. In other words, when people have not understood yet, they believe that Abhidhamma is against the Buddha's teachings, but, I really like to help people so that they in this respect change their minds. I just do the best I can. Nina. op 05-03-2004 23:58 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > My concern, however, is that Nina will one day decide that she > doesn't want to deal with the irritation that your posts may bring > her and decide to pack it in. She is busy with so many projects, I'm > sure, and has come to a point in her life when she will want to focus > on what is most important for her. So for perfectly selfish reasons I > ask you to be more considerate in the tone you use when writing to > her. For example, in the "My wife has turned into..." thread, you > referred to a very sensitive discussion between Nina and her husband > that she was kind enough to share with us, and you reduced it to a > simplified "I agree with your husband against you except for this" > statement. That was so rude, and showed such a lack of respect. Read > her post again, and think deeply about what she was sharing and what > was being discussed in real terms. 31009 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: Khun Sujin [Re: [dsg]gold medal and mud. Hi Howard, I am really glad with the however section, but the first part really hurts. So, the worldly conditions again: one day a gold medal, the next day, just mud!!! Pure mud and a good load of it. Can you point out her being idiosyncratic, and then as to the followers (I dislike this word), being doctrinnaire and not flexible??? The however part does not mean much, because you say: she is idiosyncratic, but inspite of it very kind. Nina. op 05-03-2004 20:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > As you know, I'm not an Abhidhammika, nor am I a devotee of Khun Sujin. I even > think that her approach to the Dhamma is somewhat idiosyncratic, though > perhaps actually less doctrinnaire and more flexible than that of some of her > followers. ;-). > But now, the "however" section of my post: However, I do enjoy and benefit > from much of what she has written, and moreover, from the anecdotes I have > read of her, I think it likely that that she is a very kind human being, and > very much devoted to the Dhamma. Also, I suspect that she, herself, has > probably developed quite a significant practice of ongoing mindfulness and > guarding the senses, because I detect a sense of direct experience in her > writing, and not just intellectual contemplation. 31010 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi James, I had a real good laugh about your answers. Nina. op 06-03-2004 07:34 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > James: I guess I'm a real bastard, what can I say?? Hehehe… Philip, > they were not discussing the death of a life partner! What were you > reading? They were discussing how Nina teaches the dhamma; how she > can best present the dhamma and Abhidhamma so as to reach more > people. There was nothing sacrosanct about that discussion that I > couldn't refer to it. 31011 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Dear Nina and James - It is a privilege, I feel, to be able to listen in on this warm, caring, lovely conversation between you. Intellect may be illuminating and certainly fascinating, but this side of nibbana, heart is where the greatest joy is. And I see so much heart here. I really like what you have to say below, Nina. I like it because of the superb description of the ongoing flow of impersonal dhammas, but even more because of how you mix in your recollection of a beautiful moment, a memory of something quite conventional that adds joy to this life. In discussing materiality and mentality in this post and the usefulness of directly seeing and understanding these for what they are, you go on to conclude that Abhidhamma is more than of mere academic interest. I believe this is true, but more generally, it is the Dhamma of the Buddha, stated directly in the suttas and expounded in primer-form in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, that is of more than academic interest. The heart of the Dhamma is to be found in the direct experience and understanding of what is real. Withg metta, Howard In a message dated 3/6/2004 1:09:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi James, > op 05-03-2004 07:47 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > J: I look into your statement "There are only > > nama and rupa" much deeper than you assume. > > > > This is an ontological statement, a statement of existence, and so it > > should withstand certain criteria of evaluation... > N: A very kind and gentle James, in the temple with an angelic little girl > who has devoutedly folded her hands and follows James everywhere, imitating > him all the time. This is a mental image I have of a snapshot, taken at a > certain point in time. This moment has fallen away long ago and it never > comes back in the cycle of birth and death. Kindness cannot stay, it has to > fall away, that is the dukkha aspect. I like my story, my mental image, I > wish it would last, but that is only an illusion. > Who is James? Is there anything else but mental phenomena and physical > phenomena arising and falling away? Cittas are running on, succeeding one > another. It seems that thinking lasts, but yesterday's thinking has > completely gone, how can we call it James. Is seeing James, is hearing > James? Bodily phenomena like eyesense, earsense, heat or cold are arising > and then falling away but they are replaced so long as there are conditions > for them to be replaced. When your last moment in this life has come, nama > and rupa fall away just as they do now. But so long as we are in the cycle > kamma will produce rebirth-consciousness again, and if rebirth is in a five > khandhas plane also rupas will be produced from the first moment of life. > That is the Dependent Origination, and this concerns our life now. It is not > some abstract theory. 31012 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 1:05pm Subject: angry reactions - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.9 Dear Group, Here the Buddha speaks of our angry reactions to the words of others as being a fetter. (I have to say I always smile at the rapid change in Akkosaka's demeanour from "Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words" to his very next answer to the Blessed One's question as "Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to me as guests." Something seems to have been lost in the condensation - or perhaps the initial insulting and cursing is a ritual form of debate? § 2.9. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then the brahman Akkosaka ("Insulter") Bharadvaja heard that a brahman of the Bharadvaja clan had gone forth from the home life into homelessness in the presence of the Blessed One. Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words. When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "What do you think, brahman: Do friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to you as guests?" "Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to me as guests." "And what do you think: Do you serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies?" "Yes, sometimes I serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies." "And if they don't accept them, to whom do those foods belong?" "If they don't accept them, Master Gotama, those foods are all mine." "In the same way, brahman, that with which you have insulted me, who is not insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from you. It's all yours, brahman. It's all yours. "Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together nor sharing your company, brahman. It's all yours. It's all yours." "The king together with his court know this of Master Gotama -- 'Gotama the contemplative is an arahant' -- and yet still Master Gotama gets angry." [The Buddha:] Whence is there anger for one free from anger, tamed, living in tune -- one released through right knowing, calmed & Such. You make things worse when you flare up at someone who's angry. Whoever doesn't flare up at someone who's angry wins a battle hard to win. You live for the good of both -- your own, the other's -- when, knowing the other's provoked, you mindfully grow calm. When you work the cure of both -- your own, the other's -- those who think you a fool know nothing of Dhamma. When this was said, the brahman Akkosaka Bharadvaja said to the Blessed One, "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. Let me obtain the going forth in Master Gotama's presence, let me obtain admission." Then the brahman Akkosaka Bharadvaja received the going forth & the admission in the Blessed One's presence. And not long after his admission -- dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute -- he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And so Ven. Bharadvaja became another one of the Arahants. [SN VII.2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31013 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 2:55pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi KenO, Sarah, All, In any case, being born human at all is great but lobha > led all of here and even good kamma is still kamma. > K: Being human born where Budda dhamma is still around is even greater :). C: And good friends to help us see just how great that is! Thanks, Sarah. I had a great day following UP on your suggestions and eventually found myself being reminded in Nina's Dhamma Issues that not only the arahats, but aslo the sotapanna's behaviour is beyond my measure. The example from ch 8: It can be concluded that the sotåpanna does not engage in slandering which can divide others, because he has eradicated all akusala kamma that can cause rebirth in an unhappy plane. He has also eradicated jealousy and stinginess. However, sometimes the sotåpanna should say what is true for the benefit of others without there being the unwholesome intention of using speech which could cause division among others. However, others could mistakenly take this for speech that causes division because it may seem to be slandering. Moreover, the sotåpanna can still speak with aversion, dosa, since he has not eradicated aversion. More to the point in my daily life, I can't know anyone else's citta and am easily fooled into taking 'my' akusala for kusala. I really like this one, too: 2. The "Dispeller of Delusion", Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, Decads, 2162, explains about the remaining rebirths of each class of sotåpannas, and in particular about the sotåpanna who is attached to life in the process of existence (va.t.ta, the cycle of birth and death). We read: "For the Master, after judging with the Buddha's judgement, after defining with omniscient knowledge that: 'This person has the greatest understanding of all and keen insight and he will grasp Arahatship after producing one existence more only,' created the name 'One with a single seed' (ekabíjin); [knowing] that: 'This person will grasp Arahatship after producing a second, a third, a fourth, a fifth, a sixth existence,' he created the name 'One who goes from clan to clan' (kola"nkola); [knowing] that: 'This person will grasp Arahatship after producing the seventh existence,' he created the name 'seven times at most' (sattakkhattuparama). But there is no person who is certain of seven existences. But the Noble Disciple attains complete extinction before the eight existence in whatever way his understanding is slow. He only goes to a seventh existence, even if he enjoys the process [of existence] as much as Sakka. ***In the seventh existence, even if he lives in all negligence, his insight knowledge comes to ripen.*** Feeling revulsion for even the smallest object, he arrives at peace." I think the sotapanna would know they had entered the stream during the remainer of the lifetime it happened in, but do they carry that certainty with them into their next lives? Sarah: A few more details on the conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta and the reasons for time, place and family for the birth of the future Buddha as given in the Introduction to the Jataka Tales: ***** Conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm Jâtaka, vol. i., p. 14, l. 20: 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the wish ***** Curious. I'd think if the conditions were there, enlightenment would just happen. So what condition(s) does he 'control' or 'withold'? peace, connie 31014 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Kapow!" and "Balmo!!" in the Pali canon Hello Ícaro, I really enjoyed your little message. It brought quite a bit of sukha and piiti to me this day. I think you are onto something here. Maybe we should put more sound effects, into the Pali canon, maybe more people will read it. Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/4/04 2:25:36 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:30:50 -0000 From: "icarofranca" Subject: Re: (unknown) Dear Howard: > ========================== > In my opinion, a joyful exhuberance is always welcome!! It is good to smile broadly snd to laugh with gusto. I'm quite willing to wait for the Mona Lisa smile of an arahant, and meanwhile I'll enjoy a hearty belly laugh whenever possible! > ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- I will put more verbs with BOOM! CRASH! KLANG! I will put more sounds like the round spelled "Ayin" I will put more substantives like Mae West's breasts... I will put more salt & pepper at the Putthujhanas, I will put more to and fro at Vipassana, I will put more strange rules at Patthimoka, I will put more action at PaccekaBuddhas` curriculum vitae ...And I will run away before Sarah put me on stakes! ( I would try to put it on a Rhyme of I could have time...hahahah!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro >> 31015 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Guarding the sense doors (was "To sleep, perchance to dream.") Icaro A little bit more on restraint of faculties/guarding the sense doors. I think the passage that I quoted before from Visuddhi-Magga speaks to the power of mindfulness. I like the reference to mindfulness being like a door panel that has the effect of completely blocking the sense-door to any intrusion by defilements. Further on there is another reference to the role of mindfulness in the guarding of the sense doors: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 100. (b) And ... restraint of the sense faculties should be undertaken with mindfulness. For that is accomplished by mindfulness, because when the sense faculties’ functions are founded on mindfulness, there is no liability to invasion by covetousness and the rest. So, recollecting the Fire Discourse, which begins thus, ‘Better, bhikkhus, the extirpation of the eye faculty by a red-hot burning blazing glowing iron spike than the apprehension of signs in the particulars of visible objects cognizable by the eye’ (S.iv, 168), this [restraint] should be properly undertaken by preventing with unremitting mindfulness any apprehension, in the objective fields consisting of visible data, etc., of any signs, etc., likely to encourage covetousness, etc., to invade consciousness occurring in connection with the eye door, and so on. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The passage goes on to liken a mind without mindfulness as 'a crop not fenced in with branches' that is then 'raided by the robber defilements as a village with open gates is by thieves', with the result that 'lust leaks into his mind as rain does into a badly-roofed house'. It gives the following verses (101): <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ‘Among the visible objects, sounds, and smells, ‘And tastes, and tangibles, guard the faculties; ‘For when these doors are open and unguarded, ‘Then thieves will come and raid as ‘twere a village’(?) ‘And just as with an ill-roofed house ‘The rain comes leaking in, so too ‘Will lust come leaking in for sure ‘upon an undeveloped mind’ (Dh.13) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- icarofranca wrote: > Dear Sarah: ... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jon quoted from the Vism1: "He enters upon the way of its restraint': [the meaning is] he enters upon the way of *closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness*. It is the same one of whom it is said 'he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty'." ---------------------------------------------------------------- This is the more obscure quote out of Vism I ever read. I oughted to lay down over the text, reading and reading it attentively 'till it begins to make sense for me... it's something like Citta were a concrete and continuous being or mind-flux states, in which there is no possible holes and vacuum: the raise of unvirtuousness, forgetfullness, etc, at the very moment of impulsion takes aside the eye-faculty restraint and simultaneously, like the old photo-revelation by chemical means, makes surge the non-restraint of eye-faculty as the silver nitrate compound on paper! Very interesting! 31016 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 5:09pm Subject: too much Nina: "I was tempted to contemplate a sabbatical, like Robert :-)) But I do not want to let Sarah, Jon, and Larry with his Vis. thread down." Hi Nina, Whatever we do we don't want to wear you out. In fact I can do without a translation of the entire commentary. Much of it doesn't add anything to my understanding. It is your own commentary that I am mostly interested in. Also I would very much like to hear from Suan and Htoo on this thread. Plus I'm a little disappointed we don't have more people asking questions and voicing opinions. This thread is an historic, ground-breaking enterprise and everyone should take full advantage of it. If there is a serious ambition to translate the whole commentary perhaps you could enlist some help from the Pali list or the Foundation. Larry 31017 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack Hello Jack, I thought your points were excellently expressed. What is the big deal about "right understanding?" It seems that it is a way for insight practitioners to find some line to draw between their tidy little patch of dry farming and the moist rain forest of jhana. It reminds me of the two yards that are almost adjoining. One neighbor is armed with chemical defoliants to kill all signs of life as they creep over from the guy next door who is rain harvesting and mulching his organic garden. Many kind regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/5/04 11:10:11 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:26:53 EST From: Jackhat1@a... Subject: Re: Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 3/1/04 4:14:57 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: I really know almost nothing about jhana. I agree with Howard that the Buddha 'never advised against meditating' if we are referring to samatha and vipassana bhavana here. What I questioned in my treadmill post to Victor (or thought I was questioning) was the link, the understanding involved for those of us today who specially sit and focus on a particular object. This is because, as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is essential for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. Is there any room for agreement on the last paragraph? If not, that's fine too;-) Sarah, I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper understanding of an object is necessary before one does samadhi/vipassana meditation? I also am not sure what you mean by proper understanding of an object. If one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what does one have to understand about it before using it in mental development? Sorry, but the more times I read your above comments the more confused I got. I couldn't find the post you sent to Victor so that might be my problem. Jack >> 31018 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi Philip & All, --- Philip wrote: > P: I am excited, that's for sure. Can you remember when you first > found out about the Abhidhamma? I still haven't come down, and it's > been about two weeks. I guess it's because I now have a foundation of > reality to practice brahma-viharas on. It's all coming together. .... S:Yes, I remember having a similar response to yours and a feeling of a big load lifted off my shoulders. In a BPS Bodhi leaves series, there is one (no75) by Nina on the Perfections taken from a series of letters. I forget if the same detail is in the book you’re reading or on line. Under patience (khanti) she quotes from the Sabbaasava Sutta, MN2, which some of us were quoting from recently (topics of speech thread). In the section under ‘Taints to be Abandoned by Enduring’, we read in the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation: “ ‘What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by enduring? Here a bhikkhu reflecting wisely, bears cold and heat, hunger and thirst, and contact with gadflies, mosquitoes, wind, the sun, and creeping things; he endures ill-spoken, unwelcome words and arisen bodily feelings that are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, distressing, and menacing to life. While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not endure such things, there ae no taints, vexation, or fever in one who endures them. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by enduring.’” ***** After quoting this passage, Nina writes: “Can we endure ‘ways of speech that are irksome, unwelcome’? Are we always forbearing in regard to other people and patient with ourselves? We tend to be impatient sometimes when we do not notice a rapid progress in wisdom. We should accumulate paitence and the way to do this is mindfulness of nama and rupa.” ***** James: >>Healthy debate is a way to strengthen ideas and > develop > > greater understanding. It is difficult to learn and grow in a > vacuum. .... S:I agree with James on this point. During the last few months I think that not only has there been a very high volume of posts here but the quality has been exceptional and this is largely due to the keen questioning of knotty issues and repeated clarifications on points coming up in Vism thanks to Larry & Nina, Michael’s persistent questioning of Theravada terminology & issues, Howard’s and James’s picking up anything which sounds ‘doctrinnaire’ to them (still not sure what it means though;-)),Victor’s calls for further anatta discussions and so on. As far as I’m concerned, there is no requirement at all that anyone should agree with anything anyone else says (no one needs 'followers' or to follow blindly) and I learn a tremendous amount from these discussions, not least of which is being honest about my own responses and reactions. I also greatly enjoy reading the suttas Victor, James, Chris and many others select - so many melodies;-). Of course with such high volume there are bound to be the occasional ill-considered comments (like many of my own frivolous ones), but we need to be patient and learn a little detachment towards our own short-comings too;-) There will always be some background noise - better to let it go (reflecting on the timely sutta Christine just quoted) and focus on all the excellent dhamma we can share together. Here are two more quotes I find helpful from A.Sujin in her book ‘Metta’, transl by Nina, which Mike’s posts encourage me to revisit: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 1.” The development of right understanding of realities, satipatthana, can be the condition for more metta. Panna, right understanding, knows that what one takes for beings, people or self are only mental phenomena, nama dhammas, and physical phenomena, rupa dhammas....” ..... 2. “We should not only try to develop metta when anger arises, but also when there is attachment. We should consider with what kind of citta we think of our friends, our circle of relatives, those who are near and dear to us. We should find out whether there are at such moments cittas with metta or cittas with lobha, and we should learn by our own experience the difference between these moments. If we earnestly wish to develop metta we should not waste any opportunity to learn abou the characteristics of our different cittas so that there are conditions for the development of metta. It is useless to think that we should develop metta only when we become angry.” ***** Philip, I’d be glad if you’d continue to share anything further of significance in ADL, Perfections or the other books you’re reading in your own way. Please continue your wonderful contributions. Like Nina, replies to my posts are always very optional -- note how flexible we are, Howard ;-)-- and we all get very busy at times. Metta, Sarah p.s Andy in Manchester, how is your ADL and CMA reading going these days?? ====== 31019 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello Htoo Naing, yes of course. Jeff In a message dated 3/6/04 11:17:55 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:06:51 -0000 From: "htootintnaing" Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Dear Jeff, Have you ever known postgraduate level and doctorial level regarding those three suttas you mentioined that is anapanasati, satipatthana, and mahasatipatthana? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing >> 31020 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] too much Hi Larry, Rob K and Nina Plus I'm a little disappointed we don't have more people > asking questions and voicing opinions. This thread is an historic, > ground-breaking enterprise and everyone should take full advantage > of it. k: Larry I am enjoying the thread. Since you have been asking those questions, so that is no need for me to ask. Also since the expert Nina is answering your questions, so there is no need for me to answer. Isn't that wonderful just being a spectator. But that does not mean I dont cherish this thread by you and Nina. I am now writing to tell you please do not be disappointed just because we are watching and I guess that there are also lurkers who enjoy it also. Keep it up the good work :) k: RobK and Nina come to think about sabbatical, it strikes me that nothing is permanent. Everyone has to leave eventually including this list. I feel that as long as we have done our best in practicing, upholding and spreading dhamma, we have live our life not in vain. You have done the Teacher proud in uphelding and promoting the dhamma. In the meantime lets enjoy the dhamma together while we still can. Three Cheers :-). Ken O 31021 From: Andrew Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Reflections on Upadhi Hello Everyone According to the PTS dictionary, "upadhi" means "...(2) clinging to rebirth (as impeding spiritual progress), attachment (almost syn. with kilesa or tanha, cp. nirupadhi & anupadhi)..." I came across the word in H. Saddhatissa's translation of the Sutta- Nipata, in particular, the Dhaniya Sutta: "16 Mara now appeared to tempt him [Dhaniya]: He who has children delights on account of the children. He who has cattle likewise delights on account of cattle. For the delights of man are on account of elements of sensory existence (upadhi) alone. He who has no upadhi has no delight. 17 The Buddha: He who has children has grief on account of his children. He who has cattle has grief on account of cattle. For upadhi is the cause of the sorrows of men, but he who has no upadhi has no sorrow." Here at Cooran, the health of Sandra's father has taken a turn for the worse. He is a month short of his 90th birthday, has emphysema and only 30% lung function. Although on oxygen, his breathing is laboured and he has told us that he is sick of struggling and feels his time is near. This has made me reflect alot on the first Noble Truth. I suspect my reaction is more dosa than panna. At the same time, we have had a great storm here and the creeks are swollen. In fact, all the bridges were impassable for a day or so. I went down to the shop in glorious sunlight and watched all the children splashing about in the water, the older boys diving off the bridge and having a great time, just as I used to do when I was their age. It was a delightful scene. How quickly the mind flits from (perhaps) some direct experience of a gross form of dukkha to the delights of upadhi! And how STRONG upadhi is! Can anyone tell me where upadhi fits into Abhidhamma? Is it synonymous with a cetasika like jivitindriya or chanda or lobha or moha? TIA. Best wishes Andrew 31022 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] too much Larry I know you're eager to move on with the Vis quotes, and I agree that your series is ground-breaking, but the same must also be said for Nina's translation of the tika, and I appreciate very much the combination of text, discussion and tika; so I wouldn't want to miss the tika if Nina is happy to do the translation. I think the 'problem' at the moment is that February was such a bumper month for posts that everyone is a little out of breath as far as working on new material is concerned. In my view the quality of the discussion, your own posts included, has been outstanding, and I have enjoyed reading every one of them, as Sarah and I do together without fail. Anyway, do keep up the good work. For me, slowly-slowly is just fine ;-)) Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... Hi Nina, Whatever we do we don't want to wear you out. In fact I can do without a translation of the entire commentary. Much of it doesn't add anything to my understanding. It is your own commentary that I am mostly interested in. Also I would very much like to hear from Suan and Htoo on this thread. Plus I'm a little disappointed we don't have more people asking questions and voicing opinions. This thread is an historic, ground-breaking enterprise and everyone should take full advantage of it. 31023 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack Hello Jeff, Jack, and all, Jeff asks: "What is the big deal about Right Understanding?" Well .... Right understanding is also known as Right View. "Right view is the forerunner of the entire path, the guide for all the other factors. It enables us to understand our starting point, our destination, and the successive landmarks to pass as practice advances. To attempt to engage in the practice without a foundation of right view is to risk getting lost in the futility of undirected movement. Doing so might be compared to wanting to drive someplace without consulting a roadmap or listening to the suggestions of an experienced driver. One might get into the car and start to drive, but rather than approaching closer to one's destination, one is more likely to move farther away from it. To arrive at the desired place one has to have some idea of its general direction and of the roads leading to it. Analogous considerations apply to the practice of the path, which takes place in a framework of understanding established by right view." http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp2.php "the subject of the Sammaditthi Sutta is right view. The analysis of right view undertaken in the sutta brings us to the very core of the Dhamma, since right view constitutes the correct understanding of the central teachings of the Buddha, the teachings which confer upon the Buddha's doctrine its own unique and distinctive stamp. Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Hence, to confirm the importance of right view, the Buddha places it at the very beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path. Elsewhere in the Suttas the Buddha calls right view the forerunner of the path (pubbangama), which gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors." http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > Hello Jack, I thought your points were excellently expressed. What is the > big deal about "right understanding?" It seems that it is a way for insight > practitioners to find some line to draw between their tidy little patch of dry > farming and the moist rain forest of jhana. It reminds me of the two yards that > are almost adjoining. One neighbor is armed with chemical defoliants to kill > all signs of life as they creep over from the guy next door who is rain > harvesting and mulching his organic garden. > > Many kind regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31024 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:22am Subject: Re: Khun Sujin [Re: [dsg]gold medal and mud. Dear Nina - In a message dated 3/6/2004 2:29:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > I am really glad with the however section, but the first part really hurts. > So, the worldly conditions again: one day a gold medal, the next day, just > mud!!! Pure mud and a good load of it. ------------------------------- Howard: First of all, Nina, my post was not meant to hurt, but rather the opposite. Secondly, it doesn't make sense to be hurt by someone's having an opinion, I believe. Also, I do not think that the first part of my post was "pure mud". What I had to say in the two parts together expressed a full picture of my current viewpoint, and I was speaking honestly, neither hiding my reservations nor exaggerating my admiration. To have stated one part only would have been a lie of omission. ---------------------------------- > Can you point out her being idiosyncratic, and then as to the followers (I > dislike this word), being doctrinnaire and not flexible??? ------------------------------------ Howard: The word 'idiosyncratic' is not pejorative. It isn't a "put down". It means nothing more than "unusual, not mainstream, and not the norm". I believe that it is true. Khun Sujin's interpretation of the Dhamma is certainly not a common one. It emphasizes the Abhidhamma over the suttas, de-emphasizes formal meditation, makes study of the Dhamma the lion's share of what constitutes Buddhist practice, and it seems to imply the impotence of volitional actions in Buddhist practice. All that is not the norm, and thus it is idiosyncratic. This does not make her interpretation bad or wrong - just idiosyncratic. As far as some of Khun Sujin's followers being doctrinnaire or inflexible, I did *not* have you in mind when I said this. But there are a few folks here who are so devoted to her as to be unwilling to consider other perspectives and to even go to contortions to defend a position rather than hold beliefs loosely. This has been my experience. But I see this in just a few folks here, and I see considerable flexibility in Khun Sujin, herself, and in you, who are such an important expositior of her teachings. --------------------------------- The however part > does not mean much, because you say: she is idiosyncratic, but inspite of it > very kind. --------------------------------- Howard: Nina, there is nothing wrong with being idiosyncratic. The Buddha was idiosyncratic, and his teachings went against the stream! In a way, being idiosyncratic could be worn as a badge of honor. Nina, I wrote my post because I was touched by Khun Sujin's kindness as related in the recent letter. Yes,I do think she is very kind, and being idiosyncratic in one's position on any subject has no bearing on that. Having seen your response to my post, I regret having written it - I am most sorry that it upset you. --------------------------------- > Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard > op 05-03-2004 20:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > As you know, I'm not an Abhidhammika, nor am I a devotee of Khun Sujin. I even > > think that her approach to the Dhamma is somewhat idiosyncratic, though > > perhaps actually less doctrinnaire and more flexible than that of some of her > > followers. ;-). > > But now, the "however" section of my post: However, I do enjoy and benefit > > from much of what she has written, and moreover, from the anecdotes I have > > read of her, I think it likely that that she is a very kind human being, and > > very much devoted to the Dhamma. Also, I suspect that she, herself, has > > probably developed quite a significant practice of ongoing mindfulness and > > guarding the senses, because I detect a sense of direct > experience in her > > writing, and not just intellectual contemplation. 31025 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi Nina, Nina: Remember: adults are just as sensitive as kids. James: Really? You think so? I don't think so. Did the Buddha teach this? I find that I have a special place in my heart for kids. Kids are different: tender, vulnerable, open…I believe that kids are even more naturally spiritual than adults. I am reminded of this section from William Wordsworth's "Ode: Intimations of Immortality Recollections of Early Childhood": "Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar: Not in entire forgetfulness, And not in utter nakedness, But trailing clouds of glory do we come From God, who is our home: Heaven lies about us in our infancy! Shades of the prison-house begin to close Upon the growing Boy, But He beholds the light, and whence it flows, He sees it in his joy; The Youth, who daily farther from the east Must travel, still is Nature's Priest, And by the vision splendid Is on his way attended; At length the Man perceives it die away, And fade into the light of common day. –" Well, Nina, the rest of these questions are kind of personal, and I am not sure if I should answer them, but since inquiring minds want to know! ;-)): Nina: Your father must miss you, therefore he likes you to write daily, and are you the only child left after the family tragedy? James: Yes, I am the only child left. My brother and sister died. Nina: you could make your letters like a diary. James: That is an idea, I will consider it. I chat with my dad online quite often also. Both of my parents are very attached to me. Though I understand why, sometimes I need some breathing space. ;-) Nina: How did your parents get over it? James: They didn't get over it. It is still very painful for them. Nina: I am glad you explained about the use of language in your family. I find it admirable that you became a teacher in English language, and writing in such a good style; how did you manage it all? James: I don't know; I was just attracted to reading and scholarly pursuits naturally. My parents didn't hinder my interest but they weren't the cause and they didn't encourage it either. They just didn't worry about my grades or outside interests. My siblings were not the same as me. They were not oriented toward bookish subjects. There are times when my parent's really don't know where I got it all from. I don't either. Maybe I am an alien's baby?? ;-)) Nina: And you published books? James: No, I haven't published any books (not yet). I have had short stories, articles, and poetry published in literary magazines. I had a speech about patriotism published in the Congressional Record. And as far as Buddhism, the chief editor of the Buddhist Publication Society (BPS) informed me that he is going to be publishing some of my writings on Buddhism in upcoming newsletters. Nina: Did you take the shrine with your sister's ashes to Cairo? James: No, I left the shrine at my parent's house. The shrine now has my sister's and both of my grandmother's ashes. My parents have informed me that when they die they want to be placed with the shrine also. So the Buddha statue will be there with my family. And you are right, when I die I will be but a memory and, since I won't have children (unless I adopt someday) I don't know where the ashes will end up. Metta, James 31026 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Howard, op 06-03-2004 20:37 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: The heart of the Dhamma is to be found > in the direct experience and understanding of what is real. N:Thank you for your sympathetic and encouraging words. I apologize, I am sorry about the mud part, I was overdoing this. After I had sent it I felt sorry. I did not pass the test! I lost my patience. But, never too late to learn from such moments. Lodewijk helped me to see also your side, I understand this better. But no need to mention it now. Let us just concentrate on texts and study Dhamma. The Bodhisatta was glad when there were contrarieties so that he could develop the perfection of patience. We have opportunities on this list. Christine's quote is also in Kh. Sujin's Metta Book. And Sarah quoted one of my favorite texts about the monk hearing contrarious speech. I connected this with Rahula who had to be like the four Great Elements. I had before on Vesak day conversations with Lodewijk about passing the tests, and these often come to my mind. I shall quote a little again from what I posted here before: end quote. This post is good for me to remind myself of realities. Nina. 31027 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] too much Hi Larry, op 07-03-2004 02:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Whatever we do we don't want to wear you out. In fact I can do without a > translation of the entire commentary. Much of it doesn't add anything to > my understanding. It is your own commentary that I am mostly interested > in. N: Thanks for your thoughtfulness. As to Pali, I do this usually when too tired for other things, it works soothingly. As to Tiika: I follow the Vis. text in Pali and then the Tiika to it is quite something else. This explains each word. When you see it only in English much is lost and it is quite a different thing. By the Pali I can go into the deep meaning of the words, and I constantly return to the Vis. text, find it helpful comparing the Pali words. I also use other commentaries and at times these are almost the same as the Tiika. I could just quote from them. As for me, I can find a middle way: reading it and only adding some parts that I think necessary. We had some cases that the transl was not clear and I had to go to the Pali. Let's ask the mods also. L: Also I would very much like to hear from Suan and Htoo on this > thread. Plus I'm a little disappointed we don't have more people asking > questions and voicing opinions. This thread is an historic, > ground-breaking enterprise and everyone should take full advantage of > it. N: You know, when someone asks questions he must have studied and reflected already. It is not easy to ask questions, that is the reason. So, I do appreciate yours and would not like to miss them. As we concluded before: many are silent listeners, see Ken O, and there are others, I know about them. Sarah mentioned this before. I do not feel disappointed, on the contrary. L: If there is a serious ambition to translate the whole commentary perhaps > you could enlist some help from the Pali list or the Foundation. N: No ambition here!!! I cannot expect any help: people are too busy also on the Pali list, and most are not concentrated on commentaries which present particular difficulties in translating. I help is offered I am only too glad. I shall now post a quote from my Rupas on space, the rupa that delimitates, which is next. But, the weekend is so busy with many posts, I may wait until Monday, what do you think? We can avoid weekends, I am just thinking of the readers. Nina. 31028 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi Sarah, Sarah: Howard's and James's picking up anything which sounds `doctrinnaire' to them (still not sure what it means though;-)) James: doc•tri•naire (d k tr -nâr ) n. A person inflexibly attached to a practice or theory without regard to its practicality. (i.e. no control, people don't exist, meditation is atta-enforcing, etc. ;-)) Metta, James 31029 From: christhedis Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 2:42am Subject: Anyone in Bangkok? Hi there everyone, Wondering if anyone is currently living or visiting here in Bangkok, or if there are any groups for meditation, discussion, or whatever. I'm in Bangkok and interested to meet fellow Dhamma friends, so if anyone knows anything, please let me know. Thanks.. Chris. 31030 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: doc•tri•naire (d k tr -nâr ) n. A person inflexibly attached > to a practice or theory without regard to its practicality. .... S: Oh, I don't think I'd like to catch that bug...That's what I'd thought, but then I couldn't believe there'd be any suggestion anyone here would catch that one, LOL. .... J: > (i.e. no control, people don't exist, meditation is atta-enforcing, > etc. ;-)) ... S: Oh, that's OK, it sounds like a synonym for enlightenment. Very practical. I'll just take it as a big compliment from now on ;-)) Witb doctrinaire (i.e no control, people don't exist) Metta, Sarah ======== 31031 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anyone in Bangkok? Hi Chris, --- christhedis wrote: > Hi there everyone, > > Wondering if anyone is currently living or visiting here in Bangkok, or > if > there are any groups for meditation, discussion, or whatever. I'm in > Bangkok and interested to meet fellow Dhamma friends, so if anyone > knows anything, please let me know. .... Sukin & Betty from the list live in Bangkok and I'm sure one of them will contact you and arrange to meet/take you to a discussion. If not, let me know off-list and I'll give you an email add. Shakti will be there later this month (see dates in her recent post). Azita will be there in April (ditto for dates) and a few others of us are still considering whether it's possible to meet them there just after Easter(depending on work, costs etc for us). Metta, Sarah ======= 31032 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hello Nina, and all. Nina: > Dear Philip, > don't worry, I had to laugh about what you write. > I won't be packing in! Although sometimes the work is so overwhelming, there > are so many posts and I have to write now about Thailand. I was tempted to > contemplate a sabbatical, like Robert :-)) But I do not want to let Sarah, > Jon, and Larry with his Vis. thread down. Ph: I'm sure we're all relieved to hear that, Nina, just as we're aware you may indeed decide to take that sabbatical. After all, this is an open forum and who knows what will happen. I for one will do what I can to lighten your load by keeping my promise to not respond to your comments, unless I have reflected on them for several days and still feel the need to respond or ask further questions. And when I ask questions about ADL, I will ask that other members help me since they will be beginner's questions that everyone (almost) will be able to answer. And I vow to guard the gates of your palace of wisdom and protect your sacred throne from that hound of hades Jacques de la Mitchell! (Just Joking!!) You have contributed so, so much to the understanding of Abhidhamma that there is no way on earth you could let anyone down by deciding to take a sabbatical. Metta, Philip 31033 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 3:36am Subject: Re: angry reactions - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.9 Hello Christine, and all. Ch: > Here the Buddha speaks of our angry reactions to the words of others > as being a fetter. Every morning I read a chapter of the Dhammapada and write down a verse to take with me through the day. I come back to it on occasion through the day to take my mind off chocolate and other forms of carnal sin. Today I wrote down this, from ch. xxvi, 399. "He endures-- unangered--insult, assaul and imprisonment. His arm is strength, his strength forbearance: He's what I call a brahman." I think if I had read that a few weeks ago, it would have stirred me to make a resolution not to behave badly ever again, and never to speak another wild word. This morning, in the light of the Abdhidhamma, I saw "forbearance" as the equanimity that comes from right understanding. When we understand there is, in fact, no other person, there is no one to get angry at. Some think the "no person" line is too cold, or dehumanizing, but I find it very liberating. Rather than making resolutions to myself and promises to you not to behave badly again, I simply turn myself again to deepening my understanding of Abdhidhamma, which is right understanding and the freedom from all the frantic, craving-fed things we do to protect our cherished-self image. Wise restraint will arise naturally in the future, I'm sure. Saddha. Thanks for the sutta, Christine. I'm going to print it out and reflect on it. Metta, Philip 31034 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: >> And I vow to guard the gates of your palace of wisdom and protect > your sacred throne from that hound of hades Jacques de la Mitchell! > (Just Joking!!) What would the Hound of Hell have to fear from a brown-nosed puppy?? Hehehe (just kidding). Metta, James 31035 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anyone in Bangkok? Hi Chris, Azita, Shakti, Christine, KenO, Htoo, Sukin, Betty & All, Good News we hope! We just spoke to K.Sujin who encouraged us and everyone else to visit. We're now hoping to arrange a trip (with some saved up miles;-)) to coincide with Azita and Shakti, 14th-18th April. K.Sujin will try to keep free the days of 15th, 16th and 17th Apr for discussions with us. She was very happy to hear that several of you may be revisiting too. If anyone needs any other info, pls contact Sukin, Betty, me or anyone else off-list if we can help. Anyone's welcome. Metta, Sarah p.s We haven't made any bookings, but will look into all that in the next few days. ======= 31036 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 6:59am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 06 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhamma practitioner meditator has been in sitting meditation experiencing dhamma in many different ways. As he has been well calm, he feels peace and he is full of joy. He is free from any worry as he is experiencing dhamma as they really are. He recognizes his present state. That is he is feeling well and he is full of joy and satisfaction. This is somanassa vedana or feeling well in mind or feeling of satisfaction. He knows that somanassa arises as it arises. He also knows that that feeling persists and he cognizes it persisting through out the process of mind and he also notices when it has fallen away. That somanassa or feeling of satisfaction is not him and it is not of his. It is anatta. He knows dhamma as they really are. As he has been sitting for a long time, he is in a particular position for a long time and he starts to feel some forms of discomfort in his body. It is a back pain. Not that bad but still he feels unpleasant feeling. He notices that there arises unpleasant feeling. He also knows that the feeling persists and he knows when that unpleasant feeling passes away. That unpleasant is not him and not his. There is no trace of him there in the whole process. All are anatta. And he sees dhamma as they really are. While he is sitting, the ambient temperature is just fair and he feels pleasant feeling when some breeze meets him. He knows that sukha arises and he also knows its persistence and when it passes away he cognizes its disappearenace. That bodily pleasant feeling is not him or his and there is no trace of him in the whole process. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they realy are. At a time his concentration is not that good and he is distracted. he knows that he is distracted and he feels that he is not good and concentration is still not right and he feels unsatisfied regarding his present condition and status. At that time he recognizes that there arises unpleasant mental feeling or domanassa arises. While it is persisting he knows that it is persisting. When it vanishes he notices that domanassa falls away. This domanassa is not of him or his. There is no trace of him and all are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. He just goes into jhana or absorption. At first he feels joy but as he ascends up to higher jhanas, some parts of jhana or jhananga do not arise and at last he menages to stay in jhana as calm as a mountain and he is in 4th jhana that is there is just ekaggata or one-pointedness and upekkha vedana or feeling which is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. He knows that neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling arises and while it is persisting he cognizes its persistence and when falls away he notices that feeling falls away. That feeling is not him or not of his and there is no trace of him or self. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. He cognizes that these are just feeling and these feeling are not him or his and there is no self in the whole process that have been happening. These feeling are just aggregates. They are feeling aggregates. They are called vedanakkhandha. If not mindful and there is no wisdom these matters will construct something to illude him. These feelings are actually the source of arising of consciousness and its accompaniments. They are called feeling clinging aggregates or vedanupadanakkhandha. This khandha is not of him or his. There is no trace of self or atta in these feeling. All feeling are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. May you all see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31037 From: m. nease Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: angry reactions - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.9 Hi Philip, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip" To: Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 3:36 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: angry reactions - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.9 > I think if I had read that a few weeks ago, it would have stirred > me to make a resolution not to behave badly ever again, and never to > speak another wild word. This morning, in the light of the > Abdhidhamma, I saw "forbearance" as the equanimity that comes from > right understanding. When we understand there is, in fact, no other > person, there is no one to get angry at. Some think the "no person" > line is too cold, or dehumanizing, but I find it very liberating. I couldn't agree more. This to me is Dhamma on a conceptual level, about as profound as conceptualizing can get (because it touches on anatta). When the Buddha described Dhamma as 'beautiful in the beginning' I think this is what he meant--even on just a conceptual level, so liberating. > Rather than making resolutions to myself and promises to you not to > behave badly again, I simply turn myself again to deepening my > understanding of Abdhidhamma, which is right understanding and the > freedom from all the frantic, craving-fed things we do to protect our > cherished-self image. I agree again, of course. A moment of resolution is just a moment, with its own causes and conditions, same as a moment of bad behaviour. So resolutions do nothing to eradicate accumulated, underlying tendencies and, in the absence of insight, are always doomed to failure. Understanding of abhidhamma IS understanding of Dhamma, and vice-versa in my opinion. On those rare occasions when understanding penetrates the realities of the present moment (rather than mere concepts, no matter how true), underlying tendencies begin to be eradicated--systemically, so to speak, rather than by a kind of topical application of resolution. > Wise restraint will arise naturally in the > future, I'm sure. I hope so (for all of us). Of course, lots of other, less wholesome, moments will too-- inevitably until the anusayas are eradicated by insight. mike 31038 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/7/2004 3:58:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > op 06-03-2004 20:37 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The heart of the Dhamma is to be found > > in the direct experience and understanding of what is real. > > N:Thank you for your sympathetic and encouraging words. I apologize, I am > sorry about the mud part, I was overdoing this. After I had sent it I felt > sorry. I did not pass the test! I lost my patience. But, never too late to > learn from such moments. > Lodewijk helped me to see also your side, I understand this better. But no > need to mention it now. Let us just concentrate on texts > and study Dhamma. ============================= Thank you very much for this, Nina. You have eased my mind. I'm visiting at the moment in the Dallas area with my son's family, and using their computer. Last night I read your "mud & gold" post, and set about replying immediately, because I was upset by it. I feel badly in causing anyone pain, especially sweet people whom I particularly value. At the same time, I don't want to fake my sentiments and post untruthfully, and so I was quite unhappy with the situation. I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list if you continued in feeling hurt. Just to make matters worse, after writing a long reply - longer than what I ended up with - the computer here malfunctioned, and I had to spend literally hours - into the wee hours of the morning - to salvage what I had done, get the computer back on its feet, and send off my abrreviated post. So you may understand how happy I am to receive this current post of yours! I look forward to many more fruitfull conversations with you on the Dhamma. With metta, Howard 31039 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi, Sarah (and James) - In a message dated 3/7/2004 5:47:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > James: doc•tri•naire (d k tr -nâr ) n. A person inflexibly attached > > to a practice or theory without regard to its practicality. > .... > S: Oh, I don't think I'd like to catch that bug...That's what I'd thought, > but then I couldn't believe there'd be any suggestion anyone here would > catch that one, LOL. > .... > J: > (i.e. no control, people don't exist, meditation is atta-enforcing, > > etc. ;-)) > ... > S: Oh, that's OK, it sounds like a synonym for enlightenment. Very > practical. I'll just take it as a big compliment from now > on ;-)) > > Witb doctrinaire (i.e no control, people don't exist) Metta, > > Sarah =========================== I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better clarify. I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, himself, in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) With metta, Howard 31040 From: Larry Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:15am Subject: Re: too much --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: ...> I shall now post a quote from my Rupas on space, the rupa that delimitates, > which is next. But, the weekend is so busy with many posts, I may wait until > Monday, what do you think? We can avoid weekends, I am just thinking of the > readers. > Nina. Hi Nina, This sounds like a good idea. Start the week off with a new dhamma. It's just that we have such a long way to go I'm afraid you will wear out before we get to the end. So husband your energy and do whatever streamlining you think will work. Larry 31041 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 3/7/04 1:58:29 AM Central Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Christine and all, If you are accepted in some Buddhist monasteries in southeast Asia, you are told to go and meditate. No or little instructions are given. If you have problems, you can get answers from the teachers there. You are told just to be mindful of what is happening. That's it. No study of doctrine, of the suttas or of distinctions found in the Abhidhamma. When I was in my Zen phase, suttas or doctrine were never mentioned. I think both these methods depend on a teacher's correction to lead one toward wisdom. My point is that the Buddha said there were 94,000 ways to reach enlightenment. I find your above quote to explain one way, one that I agree with, but there are a lot of other ways. Christine, I would have guessed that your above quote does not reflect your views. Jack 31042 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: Khun Sujin [Re: [dsg]gold medal and mud. Dear Howard, everything all right now, see my previous post. I understand now what you meant by idiosyncratic. I only looked at the Oxford dictionary, and of course this gives rise to misunderstandings. In Dutch it is used in a more unfavorable way. No problem anymore! Nina. op 07-03-2004 09:22 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The word 'idiosyncratic' is not pejorative. 31043 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi James, Thanks for answering my questions. They relate to Dhamma, that is why I asked them on line. op 07-03-2004 09:25 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Nina: Remember: adults are just as sensitive as kids. > James: Really? You think so? N: Really, really. You may be an exception, due to accumulations and upbringing. Please, please, take good care of this bunch of crybabies and labrador pups. J: I don't think so. Did the Buddha > teach this? I find that I have a special place in my heart for > kids. Kids are different: tender, vulnerable, open…I believe that > kids are even more naturally spiritual than adults. N: Lodewijk thinks that definitely adults are as sensitive as children, but opinions are different. I think, a pat on the back or a harsh word: just the same for adults or children. Adults are more afraid of what others think and will therefore try to hide their feelings. The Buddha did not teach this expressively, but he taught that we all are fleeting nama and rupa, five khandhas which are conditioned by previous accumulations, and this concerns children and adults alike. That is why there are very wise children, we can learn from them. Why James, I could be your Granny, but I still like to learn from you and other youngsters here on the list ;-)) In the Buddha's time senior monks could learn from novices who were already arahat. And think of Rahula who at a young age attained arahatship. I feel very strongly that age does not matter at all. J: My parents have > informed me that when they die they want to be placed with the shrine > also. So the Buddha statue will be there with my family. And you > are right, when I die I will be but a memory and, since I won't have > children (unless I adopt someday) I don't know where the ashes will > end up. N: This is touching. Here is a way of helping your parents. They may have some reflections on the Buddha when they see the statue and know that it means a lot to you. Not having children or adopting them, since we are here in the context of lifestories, I have my own little story which may be of help to some. When I first came to Kh Sujin (one of my first visits) and mentioned that we were sad not having children she answered: you can have all the children in the world. How deep and true. At that time I did not know much about clinging or clinging to an idea or illusion of my own child. But this was an eyeopener. To see that it is not all that important to have children or not. We may be emotionally involved wanting to have our own children, and it is difficult to know the difference between selfish love and true metta. This is always difficult in life, but it is necessary, otherwise we are just seeking ourselves. Note: I am not saying one should not have affectionate love in the sense of attachment to one's own children, but knowing the difference between this and metta is a condition for developing metta. This slowly dawned on me. I have experienced how helpful it is to learn about citta at a particular moment: is it kusala or akusala. As a good teacher you can also have all the children in the world! Thanks for sharing your life experiences, I really appreciate this, Nina. 31044 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack Hello Jack, I'd be interested in your reference to where the Blessed One said there were 94,000 ways to reach enlightenment - perhaps a typo? :-) I have heard of 84,000 doors but have never been given a Tipitaka source. 84,000 ways - hmmm, makes it sound so easy, almost like you'd have to be making a concerted effort NOT to get enlightened. (I also attended a Zen centre for a while, and also did some years of formal samatha-vipassana meditation.) That is sad about the lack of instruction you mention in some monasteries in S.E. Asia ... From visits, I am only slightly familiar with Thailand, Myanmar and Sri Lanka (though maybe you meant some other country). Instruction, study and support seem to be in evidence in the monasteries there. [and Betty's son is a monk in Bangkok and perhaps she may have some further knowledge]. In the Satipatthana Sutta: "Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." And to my understanding Satipatthana IS Vipassana. Vipassana (Insight) is the penetrative understanding by direct meditative experience of the impermanency, unsatisfactoriness and impersonality of all material and mental phenomena of existence. Correction welcome. What do you reckon, Jack? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/7/04 1:58:29 AM Central Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > Though > the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the > crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly > enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to > meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the > extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. > Christine and all, > > If you are accepted in some Buddhist monasteries in southeast Asia, you are > told to go and meditate. No or little instructions are given. If you have > problems, you can get answers from the teachers there. You are told just to be > mindful of what is happening. That's it. No study of doctrine, of the suttas or of > distinctions found in the Abhidhamma. When I was in my Zen phase, suttas or > doctrine were never mentioned. I think both these methods depend on a teacher's > correction to lead one toward wisdom. > > My point is that the Buddha said there were 94,000 ways to reach > enlightenment. I find your above quote to explain one way, one that I agree with, but > there are a lot of other ways. > > Christine, I would have guessed that your above quote does not reflect your > views. > > Jack 31045 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 1:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi Howard and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and James) - > =========================== > I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better clarify. I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, himself, in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard I didn't think I had used that word but I went ahead and looked it up on dictionary.com to define it for Sarah. Goodness knows I am such a helpful sort of person! ;-)) You make a good point here, Howard-- Sarah should not be lumping the two of us together. I was thinking along those lines but I wanted to dig deeper into her comment and let things unfold naturally. We are both quite individualistic and different in how we approach the dhamma. The one thing that unites us is that we don't consider dhamma to be a game or a mental exercise… it is real life. But, people are going to do what they want and think what they want, unless they are open to different ideas. No reason to sweat it! ;-)) Metta, James Ps. BTW, I would rather drop this topic also. Hmm…have you noticed something? As much as the moderators warn against getting personal, they themselves continue to get personal?? Why is that?? ;-)) 31046 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 1:22pm Subject: Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Thanks for answering my questions. They relate to Dhamma, that is why I > asked them on line. > op 07-03-2004 09:25 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > Nina: Remember: adults are just as sensitive as kids. > > James: Really? You think so? > N: Really, really. You may be an exception, due to accumulations and > upbringing. Please, please, take good care of this bunch of crybabies and > labrador pups. We are all different. We all come into this world trailing clouds of glory and oceans of tears; which will you embrace and which will you leave behind? That is the question we all must ask ourselves. Honestly, I don't have much patience for babyish adults. Petulant, self-involved, whining weakness is a real turn-off for me. And if you read the suttas closely, the Buddha didn't have patience for that kind of nonsense either (I can quote some suttas if you want). As my dad would say, "Either sh*t or get off the pot!" LOL! Metta, James 31047 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Howard (and All) I see there being a material difference between: (a) seeking to identify and state exactly what it is the teachings say on a given point, (b) asserting as fact some aspect of the teachings that one has not experienced and verified for oneself, (c) stating one's own view of the way things are, being a position not elaborated in the texts. I see (a) as being orthodoxy, (b) as being doctrinaire, and (c) as being of little interest or use to anyone else. Of course, in pursuing any one of these courses one could be stubborn, closed minded or irrational, but that doesn't make one doctrinaire. Identifying what is or is not the orthodox position of the texts on a given subject does not mean that one accepts that position in the sense of embracing it unquestioningly. That would not be of any value. Conversely, a person who truly holds a position that is contrary to an interpretation given in the commentaries, may find it difficult even to acknowledge the commentary position as being the orthodox one. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and James) - ... =========================== I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better clarify. I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, himself, in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) With metta, Howard 31048 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Sound as akusala vipaka Hello all. In chapter 1 of Abhidhamma in Daily Life we find "when we hear unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing- consciousness) is akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we performed ourselves. But the aversion which may arise very shortly afterwards is not vipaka, but it arises with akusala citta" I have two questions: 1) Am I too understand that even being on the passive end of a sound from a source which we have no control over is akusala vipaka? I can understand that hearing unpleasant words from someone as a result of our own unpleasant words is akusala vipaka - and I understand it clearly from recent personal experience ;) . But if I hear an angry man shout passing by on his way home from a bar in the middle of the night - not at me but at his drinking companion - is that sound a result of "an unwholesome deed I performed myself." And even if it is not a stranger, but someone we know who says unpleasant words to us when he or she can't get at the real source of his or her anger, is that the result of our own unwholesome deed? I guess all beginners have resistance at this idea. It sounds like there would be some kind of puppet master bringing people together at just the right time for khamma and vipaka to play out - and we know that isn't the case. Surely there is a huge random element - a whole lot of just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. 2) Isn't it more acurate to say aversion "will" arise shortly afterwards, rather than "may" arise, except for arahats? Thanks in advance for any answers. I made a comment the other day about only wanting answers in the light of ADL, but that was silly. I an eager to hear all points of view. Metta, Phil 31049 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka Hi Phil, Here's a couple of short answers. Maybe someone else can respond in more detail: P: "1) Am I too understand that even being on the passive end of a sound from a source which we have no control over is akusala vipaka? I can understand that hearing unpleasant words from someone as a result of our own unpleasant words is akusala vipaka - and I understand it clearly from recent personal experience ;) . But if I hear an angry man shout passing by on his way home from a bar in the middle of the night - not at me but at his drinking companion - is that sound a result of "an unwholesome deed I performed myself." And even if it is not a stranger, but someone we know who says unpleasant words to us when he or she can't get at the real source of his or her anger, is that the result of our own unwholesome deed? I guess all beginners have resistance at this idea. It sounds like there would be some kind of puppet master bringing people together at just the right time for khamma and vipaka to play out - and we know that isn't the case. Surely there is a huge random element - a whole lot of just being in the wrong place at the wrong time." L: Yes to all the above questions. The precise workings of kamma are only known by the Buddha. I think the idea is to "drive all blame into oneself" (a Tibetan slogan) and be aware of the far reaching consequences of our own volitional consciousness. P: "2) Isn't it more acurate to say aversion "will" arise shortly afterwards, rather than "may" arise, except for arahats?" L: The sound itself is desirable or undesirable according to community standards (also called "inherently" undesirable or desirable). For example, loud noise that some regard as music may be enjoyed by these "some". Whether you like it or dislike it the resultant 5-door consciousness is termed akusala because the root consciousness (like, dislike, bewilderment) is unwholesome. The object of that resultant consciousness will be "undesirable" rupa [assuming a very simplistic mechanism of kamma]. Larry 31050 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Howard and All A quick disclaimer here. The (c) in my post below is given by way of an explanation of my own particular (some might say, austere) style of posting and is not directed at the more personal, anecdotal style of posting that many members adopt (and which I enjoy reading immensely). It takes all types (and idiosyncracies) to make a list! (Howard, my apologies if you read anything personal in my post -- certainly not intended) Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard (and All) > > I see there being a material difference between: > (a) seeking to identify and state exactly what it is the teachings > say on a given point, > (b) asserting as fact some aspect of the teachings that one has not > experienced and verified for oneself, > (c) stating one's own view of the way things are, being a position > not elaborated in the texts. > > I see (a) as being orthodoxy, (b) as being doctrinaire, and (c) as > being of little interest or use to anyone else. > > Of course, in pursuing any one of these courses one could be > stubborn, closed minded or irrational, but that doesn't make one > doctrinaire. > > Identifying what is or is not the orthodox position of the texts on > a > given subject does not mean that one accepts that position in the > sense of embracing it unquestioningly. That would not be of any > value. > > Conversely, a person who truly holds a position that is contrary to > an interpretation given in the commentaries, may find it difficult > even to acknowledge the commentary position as being the orthodox > one. > > Jon > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and James) - > ... > =========================== > I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better > clarify. > I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in > mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near > automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little > questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a > teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, > himself, > in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that > sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else > all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard 31051 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Vis. Space Rúpas always arise in groups (kalapas) consisting of at least eight rúpas, the eight inseparable rúpas. There are rúpas other than these eight and these arise together in a group together with the eight inseparable rúpas. Our body consists of different groups of rúpas and each group is surrounded by infinitesimally tiny space, and this is the rúpa that is called space (akåsa) [3]. The rúpas within a group are holding tightly together and cannot be divided, and the rúpa space allows the different groups to be distinct from each other. Thus, its function is separating or delimiting the different groups of rúpas, and therefore it is also called pariccheda rúpa, the rúpa that delimits (pariccheda meaning limit or boundary). The rúpa space is a rúpa without its own distinct nature (asabhåva rúpa), and it arises simultaneously with the different groups of rúpa it surrounds. The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326) states that space is that which cannot be scratched, cut or broken. It is ³untouched by the four great Elements.² Space cannot be touched. The ³Atthasåliní² gives the following definition of space [4] : ... space-element has the characteristic of delimiting material objects, the function of showing their boundaries, the manifestation of showing their limits, state of being untouched by the four great elements and of being their holes and openings as manifestation, the separated objects as proximate cause. It is that of which in the separated groups we say ³this is above, this is below, this is across.² Space delimits the groups of rúpa that are produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition so that they are separated from each other. If there were no space in between the different groups of rúpa, these groups would all be connected, not distinct from each other. Space comes into being whenever the groups of rúpas are produced by any of the four factors and, thus, it is regarded as originating from these four factors. We read in the ²Discourse on the Analysis of the Elements² (Middle Length Sayings III, no 140) that the Buddha explained to the monk Pukkusåti about the elements and that he also spoke about the element of space. This Sutta refers to the empty space of holes and openings that are, as we have read, the manifestation of space. We read: ... And what, monk, is the element of space? The element of space may be internal, it may be external. And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the mouth and that by which one swallows what is munched, drunk, eaten and tasted, and where this remains, and where it passes out (of the body) lower down, or whatever other thing is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, this, monk, is called the internal element of space. Whatever is an internal element of space and whatever is an external element of space, just these are the element of space. By means of perfect intuitive wisdom this should be seen as it really is thus: This is not mine, this am I not, this is not myself. Having seen this thus as it really is by means of perfect intuitive wisdom, he disregards the element of space, he cleanses his mind of the element of space. The Sutta speaks in conventional terms of space of the auditory orifices and the other holes and openings of the body. Space in the ear is one of the conditions for hearing [5]. We attach great importance to internal space and we take it for ³mine² or self, but it is only a rúpa element. Footnotes: 3. I used for the description of space Acharn Sujin¹s ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Ch 4. 4. See also Dhammasangani, § 638 and Visuddhimagga XIV, 63. 5. Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 314. ****** Nina 31052 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Howard, op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list if you > continued in feeling hurt. N: O, No!!! What misery you went through during that night. I feel really sorry. My feeling hurt was only a moment, everything is only a moment. And then completely gone. You wrote this to Mike before I went to Thailand and we spoke about not giving an orthodox answer: > Please don't answer with a stock quotation, but just turn your mind to the > > question, and look with the intention of seeing. I think this is a matter of > > critical importance. I'm certainly not saying I have "the answer", though, > > somehow, > > it seems to be lurking "in the back of my mind", rather like "being on the > > tip of one's tongue". ;-). I have been thinking of it quite often, and especially thinking of applying it in life. It means not holding on to our thoughts, because they really are no more. No matter what it is, unwelcome remarks by someone else or our own stupid behaviour. Even when holding on there can be conceit, clinging to the importance of self. But it is difficult to really apply it under all circumstances so long as it is only conceptual thinking. When the arising and falling away of dhammas is directly seen it is quite a different matter. Did some thoughts occur to you about Mike's wise saying? Nina. 31053 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: too much Hi Larry, inspite of my old age I am quite sturdy ;-)) As we go along I am not thinking of the long way, just too busy keeping going. But what would be the end, the end of Ch XIV, or the end of the whole Visuddhimagga? Jim said he would help me to download the Pali when needed. After Ch XIV I do not have the Pali and have to look ahead in time. op 07-03-2004 19:15 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > It's just that we have such a long way to go I'm afraid you will wear > out before we get to the end. 31054 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi, Jon - I'm happy with your definition (b) for doctrinnaire. It's actually quite similar to what I mean by that. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/7/04 5:20:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard (and All) > > I see there being a material difference between: > (a) seeking to identify and state exactly what it is the teachings > say on a given point, > (b) asserting as fact some aspect of the teachings that one has not > experienced and verified for oneself, > (c) stating one's own view of the way things are, being a position > not elaborated in the texts. > > I see (a) as being orthodoxy, (b) as being doctrinaire, and (c) as > being of little interest or use to anyone else. > > Of course, in pursuing any one of these courses one could be > stubborn, closed minded or irrational, but that doesn't make one > doctrinaire. > > Identifying what is or is not the orthodox position of the texts on a > given subject does not mean that one accepts that position in the > sense of embracing it unquestioningly. That would not be of any > value. > > Conversely, a person who truly holds a position that is contrary to > an interpretation given in the commentaries, may find it difficult > even to acknowledge the commentary position as being the orthodox > one. > > Jon > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Sarah (and James) - > ... > =========================== > I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better clarify. > I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in > mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near > automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little > questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a > teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, himself, > in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that > sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else > all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31055 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Hi Howard & Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, > op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list > if you > > continued in feeling hurt. > N: O, No!!! .... ;-) I agree, let's not have any more talk about resignations or sabbaticals....pleeeeaaase! I think we're all a little sensitive at the moment. If we don’t have these experiences of feeling hurt and so on, the cittas and varied mental states won’t be known. I’m also not keen on ‘devotee’, ‘follower’, ‘idiosyncratic’, ‘doctrinaire’, but they were given with smiles and not meant unkindly I'm sure, so I just smiled when I read them after momentariy thinking ‘what me? poor me!';-). I can quite appreciate that what we say or what K.Sujin says sounds idiosyncratic to others with different interpretations of the teachings and have no problem with this at all. Actually K.Sujin wouldn’t mind what adjective is used. She’d just say to Howard as she says to us, to read and carefully consider the texts, especially the Abhidhamma, for ourselves so that we don't have to rely on anyone's interpretation. Metta, Sarah ====== 31056 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/8/04 12:14:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list if > you > >continued in feeling hurt. > N: O, No!!! What misery you went through during that night. I feel really > sorry. My feeling hurt was only a moment, everything is only a moment. And > then completely gone. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Nina. Yes, I *was* suffering. I can't easily let go of upset at causing hurt ot someone, even when having done so unintentionally. --------------------------------------------------- > You wrote this to Mike before I went to Thailand and we spoke about not > giving an orthodox answer: > >>Please don't answer with a stock quotation, but just turn your mind to > the > >>question, and look with the intention of seeing. I think this is a > matter of > >>critical importance. I'm certainly not saying I have "the answer", > though, > >>somehow, > >>it seems to be lurking "in the back of my mind", rather like "being on > the > >>tip of one's tongue". ;-). > I have been thinking of it quite often, and especially thinking of applying > it in life. It means not holding on to our thoughts, because they really are > no more. No matter what it is, unwelcome remarks by someone else or our own > stupid behaviour. Even when holding on there can be conceit, clinging to the > importance of self. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. I'm sure that's always a factor. ------------------------------------------------- But it is difficult to really apply it under all> > circumstances so long as it is only conceptual thinking. When the arising > and falling away of dhammas is directly seen it is quite a different matter. > Did some thoughts occur to you about Mike's wise saying? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Honestly - there was little thinking about the fact that the upset comes and goes, because I knew that it would arise and re-arise until I set things straight. Setting things straight was something I felt *compelled* to do, and there would be no peace in me until then. Is that bad? Well, yes and no. Like all clinging it is painful. But it is better than not caring. It is what it is. ;-) --------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31057 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/8/04 12:48:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard and All > > A quick disclaimer here. > > The (c) in my post below is given by way of an explanation of my own > particular (some might say, austere) style of posting and is not > directed at the more personal, anecdotal style of posting that many > members adopt (and which I enjoy reading immensely). > > It takes all types (and idiosyncracies) to make a list! > > (Howard, my apologies if you read anything personal in my post -- > certainly not intended) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for writing again, Jon. For a brief moment I did read what you wrote as personal, but then I looked more carefully and decided that this was likely not the case. It is kind of you to clarify this. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31058 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/8/04 12:50:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard &Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: >Dear Howard, > >op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > >>I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list > >if you > >>continued in feeling hurt. > >N: O, No!!! > .... > ;-) I agree, let's not have any more talk about resignations or > sabbaticals....pleeeeaaase! I think we're all a little sensitive at the > moment. > > If we don’t have these experiences of feeling hurt and so on, the cittas > and varied mental states won’t be known. I’m also not keen on ‘devotee’, > ‘follower’, ‘idiosyncratic’, ‘doctrinaire’, but they were given with > smiles and not meant unkindly I'm sure, so I just smiled when I read them > after momentariy thinking ‘what me? poor me!';-). > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, there are some differences with these terms.To be a devotee or follower of someone worth being devoted to and following is admirable. There is nothing wrong in beng a devotee or follower per se. I consider myself a devotee and follower of the Buddha, for example, and, if I bragged, I would brag about it! ;-) Being a doctrinaire devotee or follower, however, is less worthwhile. Now, having an idiosyncratic interpretation of a teaching is a neutral matter. It is excellent if the interpretation is correct, and less so if not. --------------------------------------------------- I can quite appreciate> > that what we say or what K.Sujin says sounds idiosyncratic to others with > different interpretations of the teachings and have no problem with this > at all. > > Actually K.Sujin wouldn’t mind what adjective is used. She’d just say to > Howard as she says to us, to read and carefully consider the texts, > especially the Abhidhamma, for ourselves so that we don't have to rely on > anyone's interpretation. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed. That's exactly what I would expect her to say. As I've said before, from what I have seen reported of her, I certainly find Khun Sujin to be an exceptional person. She strikes me as kind, easy going, confident, and not easily flustered. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31059 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] White & Red Lotus Recluse Sutta Hi Swee boon, I don’t think anyone got back to you on this so I’ve just been checking around. .... --- nidive wrote: > Hi Group, > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas06.htm > > How, monks, is a person a white lotus recluse (samanapundaríka)? <....> > And how, monks, is a person a red lotus recluse (samanapaduma)? <...> > Is there an online version of this "Putta Sutta"? [A.ii,87] ... I found two on-line translations here: > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/index.html I’ll give the second one as it has some useful commentary notes and I’m not sure the link is complete. Note the third type (the white lotus recluse) refers to the sukkha-vipassika arahant without jhanas. ***** (7) kinds of Recluses (a) Brethren, there are these four persons to be found existing in the world. What four ? The steadfast recluse,* the white lotus-like* recluse, the blue lotus-like* recluse and the exquisite* among all recluses. 1 Oõata-nica, làmaka. Comy. 2 Samanam-acalo, 'unshaken recluse,' refers to the seven classes of sekhà. He is said to be , steadfast,' as he is firmly established in the faith. 3 Pundarika is the lotus flower consisting of less than one hundred petals and here:applies to sukkha- vipassaka-Arahant. He is called samana-pundarika as he lacks jhàna and abhiïïa and is imperfect in virtues. Pundarika = white lotus. 4 Paduma is the lotus flower consisting of over a hundred petals and here applies to the intoxicant-freed Arahant, who has perfected jhàns and abiïïas. He is thus called samana-paduma, blue lotus. 5 Samana-sukhumàlo. Among all these recluses this Samana is absolutely freed in mind and hence freed from all ills, bodily or mental and refers to Himself and those like unto Himself only, i.e., all Tathàgatas-Comy. ix § 87] On Steadfast Persons 117 Brethren, who is the person called the steadfast recluse ? Brethren, a brother is under training and discipline and dwells aspiring to attain the supreme emancipation from the, bonds. Just as, brethren, the eldest son of a royal anointed king, though not yet himself anointed, is quite certain of the crown. Likewise, brethren, is a brother who is under training and discipline aspiring to attain the supreme emancipation from the bonds . he indeed, brethren, is the steadfast recluse. Brethren, who is the person called the white lotus-like recluse ? Brethren, herein a brother, having destroyed the intoxicants, is without the intoxicants, is emancipated in mind and emancipated through insight, and in this life, having achieved supernormal knowledge, he himself dwells in the attainment thereof, but without applying his mind to the acquisition of the eight ecstatic conditions. Indeed, brethren, this is the person called the white lotus-like recluse. Brethren, who, is the person called the blue lotus-like recluse ?Brethren, herein a brother having destroyed the intoxicants and go forth, himself lives in the attainment thereof, and also dwells with his mind applied to the acquisition of the eight ecstatic meditations. This indeed, brethren, is the person called the blue lotus-like recluse., Brethren, who is the person called the exquisite among all reclucs ? Brethren, herein a brother being oft invited (to almsgiving) enjoys many robes, and few if uninvited. Being oft invited he enjoys much alms-food and but little if uninvited. Being Oft invited he enjoys bed and lodging, and few if uninvited. Being oft invited he enjoys a good store of 1 Samana-paduma-samatha yànika Arahant. 118 The Numerical Sayings [TEXT ii, 88. medical requisites and supports for the sick and the feeble, and but little if uninvited. If he dwell in the company of some holy ones, many of their deeds of body please him, but only a few do not please. They do many actions by word and thought that please him, but only a few that do not please. They make many presents of offerings which are pleasing and only a few that are not pleasing. Whatsoever feelings there be, whether arising from bile, phlegm, wind or a combination of these, or due to change of season, being attacked by adversities, due to another's agency, or as a result of Kamma, these do not arise unto him in plenty, and he is free from illness. He has gained the four pleasure-giving ecstasies easily and without difficulty, and having destroyed the intoxicants is without the intoxicants, emancipated in heart and emancipated in intellect, and himself in this very life, having realised the supreme faculties, dwells in the attainment thereof. Of a truth, brethren, this one among (all) recluses is the absolutely happy recluse. Verily, brethren, if one should rightly describe it, among recluses it is Myself whom he would call the absolutely happy recluse. Brethren, if one should rightly describe it, among recluses he would call Myself the exquisite recluse, inasmuch as I use many robes being oft invited . . . [repeat the same as above set forth]. These four persons to be found existing in the world. ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 31060 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Htoo & Swee Boon (& Jeff), --- nidive wrote: Htoo: > > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > > of 7 factors of enlightenment. > SB:> Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. ..... S: I forget what was said originally, but we should keep in mind that passaddhi cetasika (actually 2 cetasikas referring to calm of cittas and calm of cetasikas) arises with *all* wholesome cittas. When samatha is developed and jhana is experienced, there is a high degree of passaddhi cetasika (calm) - no restlessness, agitation or attachment at those moments. Therefore it’s very important to understand the clear distinction between calm (passaddhi) and relaxation or attachment such as when we’re in a quiet spot or having pleasant feelings. Htoo, let me know if I misunderstood your original comment. As you say, too, calm is a factor of enlightenment, but again it has to develop with right understanding from the beginning and its characteristic has to be clearly distinguished from its near enemies (if I can use the phrase here). Also, I agree that concentration should not be confused with vitakka. However, as there is ekaggata cetasika (concentration) with every citta, and vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) with all cittas except the sense experiencing cittas of seeing, hearing etc (i.e the dvi pancavinnana cittas), I think it’s extremely difficult to determine the distinctions and not productive to try to do so, otherwise there’s bound to be more attachment;-). I mention this because the example you gave about touching air at the nostril being associated just with vitakka is a little misleading I think. Comments and references welcome! (How’s that, Jeff?;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31061 From: Eznir Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 11:05pm Subject: The Puthujjana The Puthujjana To give an illustration of `self': This `self' is like a parasite, riding piggy-back(clinging), on one's 5-aggregates, hence 5-clinging-aggregates. It is said to be shaken off only when one becomes an Arahant. Till then one carries it along. A Trainee(sekha) directs actions in such a way that this parasite loses its grip, gradually and progressively, in 4 stages. A puthujjana doesn't see this; so when ever the parasite pulls the strings the puthujjana dances to the tune! If not for this parasite, the 5-clinging-aggregates will persist and break up like the Arahant's. But because of this parasite new kamma is performed that keeps the aggregates ticking along in sansara! The affairs of a puthujjana, as in the case of a sekha or arahant, is merely a matter of mental states at the moment of experience. That is to say; Feeling feels, Perception perceives, Intention intends, Attention engager of experience, Contact the meeting place, Craving craves, Attachment attaches, Hatred the hater, Ignorance the fool just as Wisdom knows etc. etc. And the presence of all these mental states, whether wholesome or unwholesome, is the consciousness of the moment. There is no doer or conductor of experience in person, even in a puthujjana, only mental states. Hence the famous saying of Lord Buddha that "Hatred does not cease by hatred, but by non-hatred (Loving-kindness)!" Why? "When there is this, this is!" When there is hatred, hatred is and nothing else, just more hatred. And so it is for the other unwholesome states. When these unwholesome states complement each other, one comes out in anger!(note the thinking & pondering that breaks out into speech) A puthujjana, to whom `an eye for an eye', or `a tooth for a tooth' seems justified, would not make sense of this saying! He'd think that its cowardice on his part. But is it? Read the advice given by Lord Buddha to Ven. Punnovada in `Punnovada Sutta MN-145. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/145-punnovada-e.htm The fire of hatred, then, is doused only by the kindness of Love. This implies that the panacea for the illnesses of the mind is opposite in kind. See Sallekha Sutta(MN 8) http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/008-salleka-sutta-e1.htm All what Lord Buddha said makes sense only when the `parasite' riding piggy-back is understood. And how is it understood? 'When, in the seen there shall be just the seen; in the heard there shall be just the heard; in the sensed there shall be just the sensed; in the cognized there shall be just the cognized'. Metta eznir 31062 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, S:Back to our journey after rather a long break and too many distractions on my part. --- htootintnaing wrote: > >Htoo: Paramattha is through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. > .... > S: ??? Please explain. > .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: When you start to understand paramattha dhamma that > understanding run on words of pannatta. We are using pannatta. First > we use 'Sadda Pannatta' or its equivalent but this again is > understood through 'Attha Pannatta '. So paramattha is through > pannatta. So does Anatta even though it is origionally Anatta when we > are born we were introduced with Atta. ' Hey smile, this is your Mom, > this is your Dad. ' Then Atta encroached and firmly ramified since > then. With wisdom the origional Anatta has been back. So I said > Anatta is through Atta. But actually there is no Atta. All are > Anatta. I hope you got it. .... S:Got it! Though I’d say there is wrong view of atta from the outset (unless we’re sotapannas, but highly unlikely in the human realm). It doesn’t depend on words we’re taught like Mom and Dad. Ignorance is the reason for rebirth at all. So, I wouldn’s say anatta then atta then anatta. I’d say there is wrong view of atta over countless aeons and world cycles unless any understanding of the truth of anatta (the real state of dhammas) is developed. ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate > Sotapatti Magga Citta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Maybe better to say the wrong view of atta is only eradicated at this stage. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you want theoretical knowledge of Anatta and you want to > throw away Atta. OK, I agree as there is no Atta, then it is not a > problem. Let's bring Anatta view before we begin the journey. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S:Good. Almost ready to start;-) One point to clarify below. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Are you ready with all equipment? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Ready. Let me just ask for another clarification. In your new series (04) there’s plenty of good stress on anatta and understanding different dhammas as they arise. This being the case, why do you write ‘he has been in sitting meditation for a long time’? Why not, ‘he’s been shopping, going on a hike, cooking, talking to his boss in the office for a long time’?? Doesn’t it suggest there’s still an attempt to follow and control the paramattha dhammas, rather than understanding them as they arise, however his life unfolds? Now we’re agreed on all the equipment and ready to start the journey, I’m concerned about any unnecessary limitations along the route;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Would you also explain further about what you meant by 'graduate, postgraduate etc to Jeff with regard to the suttas?' I think I misunderstood your comment. ===== 31063 From: Eznir Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 11:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Sarah, Please read my on-line comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard & Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, > > op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > > > I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list > > if you > > > continued in feeling hurt. > > N: O, No!!! > .... > ;-) I agree, let's not have any more talk about resignations or > sabbaticals....pleeeeaaase! I think we're all a little sensitive at the > moment. > > If we don't have these experiences of feeling hurt and so on, the cittas > and varied mental states won't be known. eznir: I consider every person I meet a dhamma teacher to me. Specially those who provoke the negative kinds of feelings you state above. They seem to say "Look, I've aroused these states of anger in you! You have not taken what is heard as only the heard". The same can be said about positive feelings too. ******** >I'm also not keen on `devotee', > `follower', `idiosyncratic', `doctrinaire', but they were given with > smiles and not meant unkindly I'm sure, so I just smiled when I read them eznir: These words are merely concepts. What 'idiosyncratic' means to one person, means something different to another. This is because of difference in perception of the individual. This must be so. K. Sujins answer to refer the text(Teachings) is the answer. One can go further and test the meaning(of whatever) in oneself. *********** > after momentariy thinking `what me? poor me!';-). I can quite appreciate > that what we say or what K.Sujin says sounds idiosyncratic to others with > different interpretations of the teachings and have no problem with this > at all. > > Actually K.Sujin wouldn't mind what adjective is used. She'd just say to > Howard as she says to us, to read and carefully consider the texts, > especially the Abhidhamma, for ourselves so that we don't have to rely on > anyone's interpretation. eznir: Precisely, how things must be taught and understood. "Neither extolling, nor disparaging, one must teach the Dhamma". ******** > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > Metta eznir 31064 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stream Entry Hi Htoo, I’m making it a real Htoo posting day;-) A few comments or queeries on your post to Christine if I may : --- htootintnaing wrote: <....> > Next arises sotapatti magga citta seeing nibbana with great bliss > piti joy. At that particular moment is called sotapatti maggatthana > puggala. ..... S:Is this always true? For example, see Atthasalini 11, part V111 and Visuddhimagga.XX1 Piti does not arise in 4th and 5th stage of jhana, so surely lokuttara cittas arising with these factors are not accompanied by piti (joy) and sukha (bliss). Also for the sukkhavipassika without jhana: VismXX1,112: “..For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by joy and it can be *accompanied by equanimity*, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations *at the time of emergence* it is accompanied by joy. .... <....> H:> As it ( sotapatti magga citta ) > exists just for a moment, it arising may or may not be recognized. .... S: This is quite contrary to what I understand. No doubt at all. Do you have any reference for this statement? .... H: > Most will contemplate on sotapatti magga citta, sotapatti phala > citta, seen nibbana, eradicated samyojana, remaining samyojana and so > on. Some do not contemplate. .... S: Is this right? Vism XX11,19 “.....Seven impulsions of path reviewing arise. After re-entry into the life-continuum, adverting etc arise again in the same way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the arising of these he reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he reviews the defilements abandoned, he reviews the defilements remaining, and he reviews nibbana.... .......So the noble disciple who is a stream-enterer has five kinds of reviewing.” No mention of exceptions here, but I’m happy to be corrected. .... H:> So the answer will be '' A person may or may not know with certainty > if she/ he has entered the Stream. '' > > Counterquestion will be ' Do sotapanna know that they are sotapanna? ' > > The answer will be 'They may or may not know that they are sotapanna.' .... S: I definitely need to see some reference for this;-) ... H:> Another counterquestion will be ' Can sotapanna know that they are > sotapanna? ' > > The answer is ' Yes. They can. In which way? They can practise > sotapatti phala samapatti.' If phala samapatti is not possible then > the person is still puthujana. > > Phala samapatti continuously ( not continually ) and uninterruptedly > see nibbana which is a complete blissful state. .... S:Are you sure that all ariyans can enter phala samapatti? Again this is different from my understanding. I believe (but haven’t checked up) it is for those who became enlightened with lokuttara jhana cittas. (see Vism XX111 for details and also posts under ‘phala samapatti’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts> ..... H:>Sotapanna still have ignorance. They still have avijja. > > May all members benefit from this discussion. .... S:Agreed. There were many helpful details in your message, Htoo. I’m just rather picky as you’ve told me and as Jeff has encouraged me to be;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31065 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Eznir, S: Thank you for the helpful comments you just added to me. They’ve prompted me to reply to another post from last week. First though, I’d like to say that I thought your post (30861) to Howard on his thread on ‘Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity’ was very clever with many excellent comments. Back to our ’Direction’ thread where I also agree with most you say: --- Eznir wrote: <...> > You are right, there is no self to direct them, feeling feels, > perception perceives, intention intends, contact the meeting point, > attention the director, hiri & ottappa the policeman, directed > thinking & pondering are the evaluaters, wisdom knows and so on. .... S: just to be really picky, I think ‘contact the meeting point’ and ‘thinking & pondering are the evaluators’ can be misleading. If you’d like to explain more, fine, otherwise, no problem .... >All > of this are cetasikas that determine consciousness. When the right > ones are present at the right time complementing each other, > consciousness gets elevated to the noble status of an Arahant! .... S: ;-) We agree on the importance of conditions and conditioned dhammas. You’ve obviously read and considered deeply, Eznir. You’re a great asset here. .... > > To give an illustration of `self': > > This `self' is like a parasite, riding piggy-back(clinging), on one's > 5-aggregates, hence 5-clinging-aggregates. It is said to be shaken > off only when one becomes an Arahant. ..... S: Just to clarify - the wrong view or mirage is eradicated at stage of sotapanna, but still mana and subtle attachment until arahant. Not sure if we can allude to a self riding piggy-back before this. ..... >Till then one carries it along. .... S:Or carries the mirage along.... .... > A Trainee(sekha) directs actions in such a way that this parasite > loses its grip, gradually, in 4 stages. A puthujjana doesn't see > this; so when ever the parasite pulls the strings the puthujjana > dances to the tune! If not for this parasite, the 5-aggregates will > persist and break up like the Arahant's. But because of this parasite > new kamma is performed that keeps the aggregates ticking along in > sansara! .... S:Well said;-) .... > > As you rightly stated above, these 5-aggregates are > conditioned/compounded(sankhata dhamma). But they are also that which > determines the determined, fabrications that fabricate, conditions > the conditioned, ie., sankhara. This panchaupadanskandha is like a > double edged sword. An idea of self depends upon the 5-aggregates, > hence 5-clinging-aggregates(sankhara). But this idea of self is > identified with these 5-aggregates(sankhata dhamma). Sankhara and > Sankhata Dhamma go in pairs. In paticcasamuppada there are 12 such > pairs. Each is the sankhara to the following item in turn. But, there > are other items, like ignorance, which is sankhara at any time to all > of those items. .... S: Rather than ‘snkhara at any time to all of those items’, do you mean ‘paccaya’ (condition)? I’m rather confused by the last couple of sentences. .... > > S: I think the key is understanding again rather than intention. > > E: I see it this way, understanding(as in Right Understanding/View) > is just one of the 8 noble factors, intention is the second and there > are 6 other factors. .... S: The second factor is sammaa sankappa (right thought) or vitakka cetasika. Usually by intention we’re referring to cetana cetasika or kamma as in D.O. It is not an eightfold path factor. .... >Right understanding/view is a passive state of > affairs but right intention has the dynamism that propels one to > Nibbana. Both together constitute Wisdom that's Right in the noble 8- > fold path! There's more to say here. .... S: Right view is the forerunner or leader as I understand. I’ll wait for your clarifications here. .... > > The point is, in discussions of this sort, each factor in the Dhamma, > like intention, understanding or even self, cannot be understood in > total apart from the rest of the Dhamma factors in isolation! All > these factors are so intricately connected that discussing one > involves another! .... S: I agree completely.That’s why there has to be a good basis of theoretical understanding of dhammas as anatta and paramattha dhammas have to be clearly distinguished from concepts. Cetana cetasika (intention) arises with every citta and not a path factor. Still it plays a very important role and its function and so on need to be understood. Apologies again for delayed replies anytime, Eznir. Metta, Sarah ====== 31066 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I don't confuse it with ~nana, wisdom, or sati - rather the > opposite. > I was distinguishing vi~n~nana from ~nana. .... S: Apologies for misunderstanding here. .... H: >I understand vi~n~nana as > subjectivity - as a seeming of subjective knowing, a knowing by a "self" > or subject of > experience. The content of experience is, of course, all conditioned, > and it > is conditioned by many factors, .... S: In this case, understanding vinnana, let’s say seeing consciousness as an example, to be a conditioned dhamma,not self in anyway, I’m not quite sure of the point of referring to it as a ‘subjective knowing’, which seems to introduce the self back into the equation, though I realise these are just convenient terms. .... H: >among which are formational processes > (sankhara). But vi~n~nana/subjectivity is an especially ignorance-fueled > sankharic > fabrication, ..... S: I just don’t follow you here. Directly or indirectly speaking we can say that all dhammas are conditioned by ignorance. However, at moments of seeing or hearing consciousness (vinnana), only the seven universal cetasikas arise with these vipaka cittas (result consciousness), not ignorance. So why is it the above? .... H:> and the ignorance that spurs the arising of such > subjectivity is the > basis for dukkha. > The vedantists took subjectivity and raised it to majestic > levels, > identifying ultimate reality with pure subjectivity, leaving all else as > > illusion. The materialists, especially the behavioral materialists, take > the opposite > approach, coming close to denying experience in its entirety. ..... S: So we’re looking at the middle way, the understanding of cittas, cetasikas and rupas that can be known by sati, panna and their accompanying factors. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------- S: > > From ‘The Discourse on Right View’ (The Sammaditthi Sutta and its > > Commentary), <...> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And why would it be any more advantageous for consciousness IN > THE > SENSE of experience to cease than for it not to cease? ..... S:It depends on whether it is seen as satisfactory or unsatisfactory. ..... H: I say it would > not. I say > there best exist neither craving for experience nor for absence of > experience. .... S: Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Whether there is any craving or not, all dhammas are inherently unsatisfactory. Why? Because they are impermanent and not in anyone’s control. .... H: > However, subjectivity via eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind is all > advantageously abandoned, for it is all ignorance based. That is what I > take to mean > the cessation of vi~n~nana - the cessation of subjectivity. And it comes > > about with the cessation of ignorance. When the Buddha achieved his > final > liberation under the Bodhi tree, the unraveling aspect of > paticcasamupada occurred. .... S: Agreed. .... H: > That included the cessation of vi~n~nana. .... S: I don’t understand this. There is always a temporary cessation (and of course special experiences of cessation (phala and nirodha samapatti etc) for the Buddha, but only final cessation at parinibbana. .... H: >But the Buddha did not thereby > become > insentient. No longer, however, did there remain even a wisp of sense of > self, > and without that, no ignorance-based fabricating, no arising of a sense > of > subjective knowing and known objects and doorways opening to connect > them, > whence no contact (of subject with object), no self-oriented feeling, no > craving, > no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, no suffering. > ------------------------------------------------------ ..... S: I have problems following this, probably being a dod*;-) So do you agree that any idea of subjective knowing is an illusion (or mirage to follow Eznir’s use of the terms)? Still for the Buddha, there was seeing consciousness, visible objects, mental factors and so on just as there are now for us. Just no dillusion. .... S:> > The commentary adds: <...> .... > Howard: > I don't get much out of it to agree or disagree with. My > understanding > on this issue is as I indicated above and in previous posts on the > topic. .... S: No problem, but as I’m looking at thesutta and commentary which makes good sense to me and you’re looking at other sources which make better sense to you, we may have to let this one go. I think Eznir followed your reasoning better perhaps. Metta, Sarah * dense or doctrinaire ===== 31067 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi again Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > Yes, normal and natural are good ... unless, of course, what > is"normal" and "natural" to one is to steal or cheat or kill or play the > arahant ... or > give extreme examples! ;-)) .... ... S:I agree fully. These would be examples of what are referred to as unnatural or abnormal defilements which harm others in the process. (Not sure I'd include giving extreme examples though ;-)) .... H:> My point, though probably not obvious, is that the naturality of > one > who has made it well along the path may be quite different from one who > has > not, and at earlier stages it is likely, and even important, that one's > actions > not flow naturally, but be artificially constrained to go against the > (natural) > stream in many ways to foster and cultivate needed change. We start > where we > are, not where we hope to be. .... S:I think the last point which you often stress is very important. No point in kidding ourselves that we can and should act like ariyans when we're still mad worldlings. I'm not sure, however, that those artificial constraints work (see the discussions on restraint, guarding the sense doors and resolutions). Again it comes back to our understanding of conditioned dhammas and anatta I understand. .... > With natural (but hopefully more-than-normal ;-) metta, .... S: And as you understand more and more about its value, isn't that a condition for more natural metta to flow without any special prompting or urging too?? Metta and appreciation, Sarah p.s Your qu to Nina about the Buddha or an arahant '*avoiding* pain' and '*escaping* into an absorptive state' (as we read in Mahaparinibbana sutta etc) is exactly one I've asked before to K. Sujin. As Nina said, I understand it came naturally for the Buddha and key disciples to abide in fruition consciousness. They have to spend the day somehow. Rather like it might be natural for an expert pianist to spend part of the day playing, even if he had no need to. Just a natural state by conditions. However, I also find it hard to really understand and may follow up further. I think it's a very good qu. ======= 31068 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka Hi Larry Thanks for the feedback. L:> The precise workings of kamma are > only known by the Buddha. I think the idea is to "drive all blame into > oneself" (a Tibetan slogan) and be aware of the far reaching > consequences of our own volitional consciousness. Interesting slogan, thanks. I'm comfortable with it. My asking about being on the passive end of unpleasant sound arising from someone else's volitional action seems fairly trivial, but I guess I'm leading up to a more serious topic, which I won't raise quite yet- I need to do more reading in the Useful Posts on khamma, because it's a topic that I'm sure has been discussed often enough here. (Well, no need to be secretive about it. Someone very close to me was abused as a child, and I have trouble with the notion that being abused is a result of one's khamma. It seems to me that those on the passive end of cruel behaviour due to another's khamma are in the wrong place in the wrong time. But I'm open, as always, to a deeper understanding of reality that may turn my current understanding inside out. > P: "2) Isn't it more acurate to say aversion "will" arise shortly > afterwards, rather than "may" arise, except for arahants?" > L: Whether you like it or dislike it the resultant 5-door> consciousness is termed akusala because the root consciousness (like, > dislike, bewilderment) is unwholesome. The object of that resultant > consciousness will be "undesirable" rupa [assuming a very simplistic > mechanism of kamma]. Ph: This is very interesting. Liking the sound is a source of attachment, so represents akusala. I guess I should have known this from my understanding of the 8 worldly concerns. Thanks again. Phil 31069 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka In a message dated 3/8/04 7:55:17 AM Central Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: Someone very close to me was abused as a child, and I have trouble with the notion that being abused is a result of one's khamma. It seems to me that those on the passive end of cruel behaviour due to another's khamma are in the wrong place in the wrong time. Phil, My understanding of kamma is that one cannot say that an event such as being abused is the result of that person's kamma. Somewhere the Buddha said that sort of thinking is deluded because the workings of kamma are too complex. I think the important thing about kamma is that it influences our reaction to events not the events themselves. ( Some Buddhist sects including, I believe, Tibetan believe the events are caused by kamma.) Jack 31070 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 3/7/04 2:29:59 PM Central Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: I'd be interested in your reference to where the Blessed One said there were 94,000 ways to reach enlightenment - perhaps a typo? :-) I have heard of 84,000 doors but have never been given a Tipitaka source. Christine, I meant 84,000. I don't know where it says this in the suttas. 84,000 ways - hmmm, makes it sound so easy, almost like you'd have to be making a concerted effort NOT to get enlightened. Not so easy. There are 973,687,999,423 ways that do not lead to enlightenment. That's my observation and not in the suttas either. (I also attended a Zen centre for a while, and also did some years of formal samatha-vipassana meditation.) That is sad about the lack of instruction you mention in some monasteries in S.E. Asia ... From visits, I am only slightly familiar with Thailand, Myanmar and Sri Lanka (though maybe you meant some other country). Instruction, study and support seem to be in evidence in the monasteries there. [and Betty's son is a monk in Bangkok and perhaps she may have some further knowledge]. In the Satipatthana Sutta: "Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." And to my understanding Satipatthana IS Vipassana. Vipassana (Insight) is the penetrative understanding by direct meditative experience of the impermanency, unsatisfactoriness and impersonality of all material and mental phenomena of existence. Correction welcome. What do you reckon, Jack? That is my understanding also. The question is how important concepts are in that meditative experience. jack 31071 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - I'm only inserting a comment or two in the following.While you ask for further explanation, I find that I cannot, in justice, really say much more that will be of use. The central point is that the notions of subject and objects-of-subjective-knowing only apply to the erroneous experiencing of us benighted folks. I believe they are deceptive notions, and that experience as it actually is, is free of this duality. Just a couple comments more in the following: In a message dated 3/8/04 4:31:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > I don't confuse it with ~nana, wisdom, or sati - rather the > >opposite. > >I was distinguishing vi~n~nana from ~nana. > .... > S: Apologies for misunderstanding here. > .... > H: >I understand vi~n~nana as > >subjectivity - as a seeming of subjective knowing, a knowing by a "self" > >or subject of > >experience. The content of experience is, of course, all conditioned, > >and it > >is conditioned by many factors, > .... > S: In this case, understanding vinnana, let’s say seeing consciousness as > an example, to be a conditioned dhamma,not self in anyway, I’m not quite > sure of the point of referring to it as a ‘subjective knowing’, which > seems to introduce the self back into the equation, though I realise these > are just convenient terms. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that translating 'vi~n~nana' as "consciousness" is inadequate. I think it is better translated as "subjectivity" in the sense of experience polarized towards a seeming knowing subject. ---------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: >among which are formational processes > >(sankhara). But vi~n~nana/subjectivity is an especially ignorance-fueled > >sankharic > >fabrication, > ..... > S: I just don’t follow you here. Directly or indirectly speaking we can > say that all dhammas are conditioned by ignorance. However, at moments of > seeing or hearing consciousness (vinnana), only the seven universal > cetasikas arise with these vipaka cittas (result consciousness), not > ignorance. So why is it the above? > .... > H:> and the ignorance that spurs the arising of such > >subjectivity is the > >basis for dukkha. > > The vedantists took subjectivity and raised it to majestic > >levels, > >identifying ultimate reality with pure subjectivity, leaving all else as > > > >illusion. The materialists, especially the behavioral materialists, take > >the opposite > >approach, coming close to denying experience in its entirety. > ..... > S: So we’re looking at the middle way, the understanding of cittas, > cetasikas and rupas that can be known by sati, panna and their > accompanying factors. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly the middle way. But we may not see what that is in exactly the same fashion. ------------------------------------------------------ > .... > >---------------------------------------------------------- > S: >>From ‘The Discourse on Right View’ (The Sammaditthi Sutta and > its > >>Commentary), > <...> > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > And why would it be any more advantageous for consciousness IN > >THE > >SENSE of experience to cease than for it not to cease? > ..... > S:It depends on whether it is seen as satisfactory or unsatisfactory. > ..... > H: I say it would > >not. I say > >there best exist neither craving for experience nor for absence of > >experience. > .... > S: Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Whether there is any craving or not, all dhammas > are inherently unsatisfactory. Why? Because they are impermanent and not > in anyone’s control. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I disagree. Not unsatisfactory because impermanent, but unsatisfactory because impermanent AND clung to. The cause of dukkha is given in the 2nd noble truth, and that cause is tanha. When we crave that things remain or we crave that they change to be just as we wish, we suffer. ------------------------------------------------------ > .... > H: >However, subjectivity via eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind is > all > >advantageously abandoned, for it is all ignorance based. That is what I > >take to mean > >the cessation of vi~n~nana - the cessation of subjectivity. And it comes > > > >about with the cessation of ignorance. When the Buddha achieved his > >final > >liberation under the Bodhi tree, the unraveling aspect of > >paticcasamupada occurred. > .... > S: Agreed. > .... > H: >That included the cessation of vi~n~nana. > .... > S: I don’t understand this. There is always a temporary cessation (and of > course special experiences of cessation (phala and nirodha samapatti etc) > for the Buddha, but only final cessation at parinibbana. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. The Buddha attained full cessation under the bodhi tree. (But recall what I mean by vi~n~nana, namarupa, phassa, etc) ------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: >But the Buddha did not thereby > >become > >insentient. No longer, however, did there remain even a wisp of sense of > >self, > >and without that, no ignorance-based fabricating, no arising of a sense > >of > >subjective knowing and known objects and doorways opening to connect > >them, > >whence no contact (of subject with object), no self-oriented feeling, no > >craving, > >no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, no suffering. > >------------------------------------------------------ > ..... > S: I have problems following this, probably being a dod*;-) So do you > agree that any idea of subjective knowing is an illusion (or mirage to > follow Eznir’s use of the terms)? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I sure do! (And perhaps it would be best for us to just enjoy this commonality of understanding and not push the rest too far. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- Still for the Buddha, there was seeing> > consciousness, visible objects, mental factors and so on just as there are > now for us. Just no dillusion. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, there was visual and mental experience, completely undeluded, entirely free of the sense of knowing/controlling subject, and entirely free of sense of known/controlled objects. ------------------------------------------------------- > .... > S:> >The commentary adds: > <...> > .... > >Howard: > > I don't get much out of it to agree or disagree with. My > >understanding > >on this issue is as I indicated above and in previous posts on the > >topic. > .... > S: No problem, but as I’m looking at thesutta and commentary which makes > good sense to me and you’re looking at other sources which make better > sense to you, we may have to let this one go. I think Eznir followed your > reasoning better perhaps. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > * dense or doctrinaire ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. I'm just not being clear. Definitely not clear. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31072 From: Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Jack, Christine mentioned that my son is a monk at Wat Bavornives here in Bangkok and that I might have some idea of the extent of his study and meditation there. Right now he is in Chiangmai for several weeks, at a quiet pavillion in the mountains which my brother in law set up for monks who wish to meditate. Every so often he feels the need to go up to Chiangmai to be alone. For him, meditation has become central to his direction on the Path. When I once asked him how his meditation lead to the growth of wisdom and understanding, he said the following: that when one reached a point when piti (rapture; but not linked with vedana, feeling) arose, insight would then follow. I think he was referring to the idea that insight could arise when the 2nd or 4th (?) jhana had been reached. For most of us, the 4th jhana is too far distant to be a reality in this lifetime, but the monks are taught that the goal can be reached through jhana (samatha meditation). In his temple, study is also stressed and monks are strongly encouraged to study Pali and the Tipitaka to the highest they can achieve of the 9 levels of scholarship recognized here in Thailand. Each level requires hours and even days of grueling tests in order to pass on to the next level. However, whatever contemplation is done so that conditions could arise to bring about satipatthana is probably a private matter for each monk. My son attained level 3 and decided not to go further with the study of Pali, and, as noted before, sees meditation as the method to reach the goal. And yet, when I have discussed with him some of the issues which have come up on dsg or in our discussions with Achaan Sujin, I sense a lot of understanding from his answers (but that is mere speculation since I cannot possibly know what levels of understanding he may or may not have attained). In addition, I think you are correct in asserting that the Abhidhamma is not studied. In fact, most monks shy away from it because they don't understand it (my apologies to any monks on the list who do indeed study Abhidhamma). Years ago, when I had gotten a copy of Nina's ADL, and showed it to monks at Wat Bavorn (this was a few years before my son was born; he is now 30), they actually dissuaded me from reading it! So, I glean from the experiences my son has had that both study and meditation are emphasized, but it is very much up to the individual monk to decide which way to go. Most monks, I think, don't see that both can be developed together, but instead choose one or the other, according to their accumulations. Samatha allows for conditions to arise to cause one to look inward at the various mental states (cetasikas) that arise and fall away; reading, listening, discussing causes conditions to arise to allow for contemplation, so that when conditions are right, a deep and direct understanding of the nature of anatta (not self), anicca (impermanence) and/or dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) can arise as well (but for me these have been very rare and far between). Lastly, I mentioned that my son likes to go to Chiangmai to be alone. He does this, I believe, to get away from the "politics" that goes on within the monkhood (please don't ask for more details on what kind of politics because it is rather a sensitive issue right now). To me that is an indication that the same kilesas (defilements) that plague lay people also plague the monks, and, as we know, one cannot "get away" from dosa and lobha simply by changing location; they are mental states which arise and fall away by conditions, no matter "where" one might be located. metta, Betty PS: Howard, I still owe you an answer to your wonderful explanation of paticcasamuppada. On the day I saw your answer on dsg, I left on a trip to Rajasthan and upon return had found I was "deleted" from dsg. However, Jon informed the managers of yahoo and I have, as of yesterday, been reinstated. Many thanks to Jon. __________________________ > Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack > > . . .That is sad about the lack of > instruction you mention in some monasteries in S.E. Asia ... From > visits, I am only slightly familiar with Thailand, Myanmar and Sri > Lanka (though maybe you meant some other country). Instruction, > study and support seem to be in evidence in the monasteries there. > [and Betty's son is a monk in Bangkok and perhaps she may have some > further knowledge]. > In the Satipatthana Sutta: "Then the Blessed One addressed the > bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the > purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right > path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of > Mindfulness." And to my understanding Satipatthana IS Vipassana. > Vipassana (Insight) is the penetrative understanding by direct > meditative experience of the impermanency, unsatisfactoriness and > impersonality of all material and mental phenomena of existence. > Correction welcome. What do you reckon, Jack? > Christine and all, > > > > If you are accepted in some Buddhist monasteries in southeast Asia, > you are > > told to go and meditate. No or little instructions are given. If > you have > > problems, you can get answers from the teachers there. You are told > just to be > > mindful of what is happening. That's it. No study of doctrine, of > the suttas or of > > distinctions found in the Abhidhamma. . . > > > > > > Jack> ________________________________________________________________________ 31073 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/8/04 10:12:20 AM Central Standard Time, beyugala@k... writes: When I once asked him how his meditation lead to the growth of wisdom and understanding, he said the following: that when one reached a point when piti (rapture; but not linked with vedana, feeling) arose, insight would then follow. I think he was referring to the idea that insight could arise when the 2nd or 4th (?) jhana had been reached. For most of us, the 4th jhana is too far distant to be a reality in this lifetime, but the monks are taught that the goal can be reached through jhana (samatha meditation). Betty, Thanks for the informative note. Several comments: The Anananasati Sutta lists 16 lessons toward enlightenment. These lessons are also described by some teachers as the 16 mental steps one goes through even though one might be following some other Buddhist method. Realizing piti and sukkha is one of the last steps before insight. The higher jhanas aren't needed. [snip] In addition, I think you are correct in asserting that the Abhidhamma is not studied. In fact, most monks shy away from it because they don't understand it (my apologies to any monks on the list who do indeed study Abhidhamma). It depends on the monastery. I knew several Thai monks who entered the monastery at the age of 9. They studied the Abhidhamma extensively even at that young age. (Interestingly, the monks I know with this background downplay the Abhidhamma now.) They had little round colored disks with names of the different cetasikas on it. If I remember correctly, they would be asked to pick up the appropriate disk as they became aware of the various cetasikas that arose in their mind. jack , I believe, to get away from the "politics" that goes on within the monkhood (please don't ask for more details on what kind of politics because it is rather a sensitive issue right now). To me that is an indication that the same kilesas (defilements) that plague lay people also plague the monks, and, as we know, one cannot "get away" from dosa and lobha simply by changing location; they are mental states which arise and fall away by conditions, no matter "where" one might be located. Yes, I have heard about the affect of polics also. jack 31074 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Upadhi Dear Andrew, op 07-03-2004 07:42 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > According to the PTS dictionary, "upadhi" means "...(2) clinging to > rebirth (as impeding spiritual progress), attachment (almost syn. > with kilesa or tanha, cp. nirupadhi & anupadhi)..." N: I have the Sutta Nipata in K.R. Norman's translation and he adds a note; Two meanings: objects which one amasses and also: Thus I would say the second noble truth and the first noble truth are contained in these terms. The attachment to children and cattle is the cause of dukkha, of rebirth. A: I came across the word in H. Saddhatissa's translation of the Sutta- > Nipata, in particular, the Dhaniya Sutta: > "16 Mara now appeared to tempt him [Dhaniya]: He who has children > delights on account of the children. (snipped). > > Here at Cooran, the health of Sandra's father has taken a turn for > the worse. He is a month short of his 90th birthday, has emphysema > and only 30% lung function. Although on oxygen, his breathing is > laboured and he has told us that he is sick of struggling and feels > his time is near. This has made me reflect alot on the first Noble > Truth. I suspect my reaction is more dosa than panna. N: I feel very sorry for you, Sandra and your family. Is he still staying at your house? A: I went down to the shop in glorious sunlight and watched all the > children splashing about in the water, the older boys diving off the > bridge and having a great time, just as I used to do when I was their > age. It was a delightful scene. > How quickly the mind flits from (perhaps) some direct experience of a > gross form of dukkha to the delights of upadhi! And how STRONG > upadhi is! N: The contrast is very striking. When we think of different moments of vipaka experienced through the senses we can understand that all such moments are dukkha. It is so unexpected what we experience and often a real surprise, pleasant or unpleasant. We never know beforehand. A reminder that birth and rebirth are dukkha. A: Can anyone tell me where upadhi fits into Abhidhamma? Is > it synonymous with a cetasika like jivitindriya or chanda or lobha or > moha? N: And this is Abhidhamma, this is life. Because of the two meanings we cannot say that upadhi is synonymous with lobha. Lobha is only one aspect. Nina. 31075 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing as akusala vipaka Hi Philip, I changed the heading: sound is not vipaka, but hearing is. Sound is the object of all the cittas in the eardoor process (vipakacittas, kiriyacittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas) and in the succeeding mind-door process. op 08-03-2004 01:40 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > In chapter 1 of Abhidhamma in Daily Life we find "when we hear > unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing- > consciousness) is akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed > we performed ourselves. But the aversion which may arise very shortly > afterwards is not vipaka, but it arises with akusala citta" > > I have two questions: > > 1) Am I too understand that even being on the passive end of a > sound from a source which we have no control over is akusala vipaka? N: We should not be mistaken by the word akusala of akusala vipaka. The attribute akusala of akusala vipaka merely means: it is result (passive) of akusala kamma (active:cetana, volition) in the past. PH: I can understand that hearing unpleasant words from someone as a > result of our own unpleasant words is akusala vipaka - and I > understand it clearly from recent personal experience ;) . But if I > hear an angry man shout passing by on his way home from a bar in the > middle of the night - not at me but at his drinking companion - is > that > sound a result of "an unwholesome deed I performed myself." N: The sound is unpleasant, thus the hearing is akusala vipaka. That is the dukkha in our life. PH: And even > if it is not a stranger, but someone we know who says unpleasant > words to us when he or she can't get at the real source of his or her > anger, is that the result of our own unwholesome deed? N: Yes. PH: I guess all > beginners have resistance at this idea. It sounds like there would be > some kind of puppet master bringing people together at just the right > time for kamma and vipaka to play out - and we know that isn't the > case. N: No puppet master, but it is the fixed order or law of kamma and vipaka. All dukkha. The truth of dukkha is bitter. But there is a Path leading to the end, the development of right understanding. And we can begin now. PH 2) Isn't it more acurate to say aversion "will" arise shortly > afterwards, rather than "may" arise, except for arahats? N: Not necessarily. It depends on whether there is wise attention to the object or unwise attention. There can be wise attention for us at this moment. But mind, the vipaka is so very, very short, it is past before you realize it. That is why mostly we cannot tell what kind of vipaka it was. And why should we find out? Kusala citta or akusala citta is more important. Right understanding conditions kusala citta, and what is more important: the elimination of akusala, of ignorance and wrong view. The thinking about vipaka is so very, very long. Thinking is never with neutral cittas, it is either kusala or akusala. Learning about the processes helps us to have more understanding about vipaka and about the kusala cittas and akusala cittas that are our reactions to it. When we have more understanding of the shortness of the moments it can be a condition to drop the story sooner. A story is only a story and not helpful, just an illusion. We think, he did this to me: just a short moment of vipaka and then useless thinking about he and me, even with conceit. How self involved we are so long as we have not become ariyans. When we can live more by the moment it is easier not to dwell too much on thinking, and we can begin again. There is another moment again, let us learn about it. We can also learn about thinking: kusala or akusala? You said, you experienced an unpleasant sound, there was akusala vipaka. But this is more: thinking of it afterwards. It is all unpleasant, but it can also be a learning experience as I learnt from A. Sujin. Is this not a consolation? I write all this also to remind myself, you know. An example (I mentioned this before): my brother's ex used to say to me all the time: don't interrupt me. A. Sujin said: let her say this again and again. She meant: a good training. She also said that she was glad about any kind of vipaka, also akusala vipaka. Glad with anything that happens in life. Nina. 31076 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo & Swee Boon (& Jeff), --- nidive wrote: >Htoo: > > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > > > of 7 factors of enlightenment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SB: Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I forget what was said originally, but we should keep in mind that passaddhi cetasika (actually 2 cetasikas referring to calm of cittas and calm of cetasikas) arises with *all* wholesome cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 6 pairs of cetasikas. 6 for citta and 6 for cetasikas namely_ cittapassaddhi, kayapassaddhi, cittalahuta, kayalahuta, cittamuduta, kayamuduta, cittakammannata, kayakammannata, cittapagunnata, kayapagunnata,cittujukata, kayujukata. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: When samatha is developed and jhana is experienced, there is a high degree of passaddhi cetasika (calm) - no restlessness, agitation or attachment at those moments. Therefore it's very important to understand the clear distinction between calm (passaddhi) and relaxation or attachment such as when we're in a quiet spot or having pleasant feelings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is crucial notation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Htoo, let me know if I misunderstood your original comment. As you say, too, calm is a factor of enlightenment, but again it has to develop with right understanding from the beginning and its characteristic has to be clearly distinguished from its near enemies (if I can use the phrase here). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I would say The Buddha's words. I have to give a reference as someone has been persistently asking for reference to death directly or indirectly. The Buddha preached in His very first Discourse called Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. In that Sutta, The Buddha preached what the middle way (Majjhimapatipada ) or Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ) is. The Buddha preached to His very first five disciples Kondanna, Bhaddiya, Vappa, Mahanama, and Assaji about Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ). Majjhimapatipada involves 1. Samma Ditthi 2. Samma Sankappa 3. Samma Kammanta 4. Samma Vaca 5. Samma Ajiva 6. Samma Vayama 7. Samma Sati 8. Samma Samadhi Samma Ditthi or panna comes first while Samma Samadhi comes last as can be seen in the Sutta. This sutta is very valuable and all the necessary dhamma to achieve enlightenment are in that single Sutta. When there is inability to deeply understand dhamma as they really are then some have been crazily restlessly exploring in scriptures in case they can obtain something as evidence so that they can arm themselves to attack genuine Buddhists. The Buddha preached a Sutta to Kalamas. That Sutta is called Kalama Sutta. In that The Buddha preached that facts are not to be assumed just because 1. the report says 2. the legends say 3. the tradition says 4. the scripture says 5. the logical conjecture say 6. the inference says 7. the analogies say 8. the agreement through pondering view says 9. the probability says 10.the thought says to be believe so. Some self-confirm that according to their intellect this might be correct or right or true. The Buddha preached The Dhamma for 45 years. He first preached His first five Disciples. Then He preached Dhamma to a single beings or beings in group or beings in groups or any other settings. For the first 25 years there was no fixed disciple to help him in His personal matters. When He became old, He proposed that someone should be appointed as His personal attendant. At that time every disciple offered themselves to serve as a personal attendant to The Buddha except Venerable Ananda. Venerable Ananda had been a personal attendant since then and he had to hear all dhamma that The Buddha preached day and night. The Dhamma preached in his absence for some reasons had to be re-tell by The Buddha as an agreement at the time of appointing so. Sutta were some time individualized. And some time they were preached for the whole group. At the very first Buddhists' Council, while Venerable Mahakassapa acted as the Pucchaka ( questioner ), Venerable Ananda acted as the Dhamma Bhandhagarika ( the bank of Dhamma ) as he mostly heard most Dhamma preaching. At that time Dhamma were carried over by citation. Recording on leaves first started at 4th Buddhists' Council. Even though lay people can learn Tipitaka, Tipitaka is being maintained by The Sangha. They maintain so that they can preach suitable Dhamma to suitable beings. I am talking these for the benefit of members that Dhamma do work even if a single word can be understood. When there is inability to understand , then there will only be confusion. It is not important at all whether billions of scriptural records have been explored and reviewed but what important is understanding. That is panna. That is panna. That is panna. So initial understanding is very important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Also, I agree that concentration should not be confused with vitakka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Vitakka is putting mind on object while concentration stabilizes mind. Vitakka works as Samma Sankappa while Ekaggata or concentration works as Samma Samadhi in Noble Eightfold Path. Vitakka is not concentration. And concentration is not vitakka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: However, as there is ekaggata cetasika (concentration) with every citta,and vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) with all cittas except the sense experiencing cittas of seeing, hearing etc (i.e the dvi pancavinnana cittas), I think it's extremely difficult to determine the distinctions and not productive to try to do so, otherwise there's bound to be more attachment;-). I mention this because the example you gave about touching air at the nostril being associated just with vitakka is a little misleading I think. Comments and references welcome! (How's that, Jeff?;-) Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This will depend on how deeply understood. Even though ekaggata arises and falls away at evey moment and it arises with any citta including vipaka citta, to talk on concentration is not too difficult if there is no strong tag tagged. When a citta arises taking kusala object of meditaion, it falls away immediately. Next citta arises taking kusala object of meditation and it immediately falls away. When this happens successively, ekaggata in there serves as concentration. As that concentration is on kusala dhamma then the concentration is samadhi. If that samadhi is associated with understanding then ( THEN ) it is Samma Samadhi. I do not think reference would ever need here as I am clearly and intelligibly expounding on these matter. But fools can foolishly search in the scripture as they stabbornly think the only right is there. Here I am not being rude. I say fools because all Puthujana are fools. They are so foolish that they think they are them. When Puthujanaship has been overcome and as overcomers are no more fools they can understand Dhamma as they really are because they already see The Dhamma so why search scripture for them. Concentration or jhana or absorption in simple form is not Samma Samadhi. Devimala Hermit got the highest Jhana Arupa jhana but he was still Puthujana. We was reborn in Arupa Bhumi, abode of immaterial beings where no dhamma can be heard and he could not see The Live Buddha. That is why he first laughed and later cried when Bodhisatta the prince Siddattha stood on his forehead when he called the prince to come to him. He laughed because the Noble being stood on his forehead. He had Jhana. So he knew the prince would become Sammasambuddha. So he smiled and laughed. Again he cried because without hearing any Dhamma from Sammasambuddha and to be reborn in immaterial abode. This definitely reveals Jhana or absorption in simple form is useless and it is not Samma Samadhi. Alara and Udaka were both very advanced Jhana achievers. But they both were just Puthujana. Their Jhana is not Samma Samadhi. They were not enlightened. Devadattha attained Jhana with power. He could create 1000 bodies like handsome prince, beautiful princess, deva, yakkha, gumbandha, animals and so on. With that power he approached the prince Ajatasattu whom he advised to kill his own father. The thought of Devadattha was to make Ajatasattu a king. And he himself would kill The Buddha so that he can make himself the buddha ( because he thought he was a buddha. How silly! That is due to lack of Panna ). At his first attempt hurting The Buddha all his jhana were totally gone. Because he did Anatariya Kamma. These Kamma are very very very heavy Kamma. They are called Garuka Kamma. I have written on Kamma at triplegem. Anantariya Kamma are patricide ( killing own father ), matricide, killing arahats, hurting The Live Buddha and division of The Sangha. At his 2nd act of Anantariya Kamma, there followed vomiting of blood. He had 1000 disciples. He proposed 10 facts for The Sangha which include not to eat beef. The Buddha denied all 10 facts because all 10 facts were illogical for The Sangha. By using this denial, he (Devadattha ) assumed himself as a buddha and called for disciples. 500 left with The Buddha and 500 followed him. At his own monastry, Devadattha started to vomit blood. He regreted but it was not in time. He wanted to see his brother-in- law who had been the husband of Yasodaya who again was his blood- related own sister. He called for his 500 disciples and they carried Devadattha on a coach on their shoulder. While they appraoched The BUddha monastry, some Bhikkhus reported that Devadattha came to see you Sir. The Buddha just smiled and said he would not reach my sight. Just before the monastry, the Earth could not bear Devadattha who made division of The Sangha even in the presence of The Buddha ( This is because he wants students. How silly is he! ) and who attacked The Live Buddha by pushing very hugh stone from the high mountain. The Buddhas are always perfected. The stone came down angrily but a small mountain appeared and the stone was stopped but a piece of stone came directly to The Live Buddha and The Buddha was hurt. The whole story reveals that Jhana in pure form is useless and even dangerous because there is possibility of rebirth in immaterial abode where there is no chance to see and hear The Live Buddha and His Dhamma. I would say strongly here that Jhana in simple form is not Samma Samadhi. Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. Vitakka is not concentration. Vicara is not concentration. Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. Samma Samadhi is not right absorption. Jhana is not a dirty word. And many things still left to say May all beings have right view or Samma Ditthi and see Dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 31077 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > S:Back to our journey after rather a long break and too many distractions > on my part. > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > >Htoo: Paramattha is > through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. > > .... > > S: ??? Please explain. > > .... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: When you start to understand paramattha dhamma that > > understanding run on words of pannatta. We are using pannatta. First > > we use 'Sadda Pannatta' or its equivalent but this again is > > understood through 'Attha Pannatta '. So paramattha is through > > pannatta. So does Anatta even though it is origionally Anatta when we > > are born we were introduced with Atta. ' Hey smile, this is your Mom, > > this is your Dad. ' Then Atta encroached and firmly ramified since > > then. With wisdom the origional Anatta has been back. So I said > > Anatta is through Atta. But actually there is no Atta. All are > > Anatta. I hope you got it. > .... > S:Got it! Though I'd say there is wrong view of atta from the outset > (unless we're sotapannas, but highly unlikely in the human realm). It > doesn't depend on words we're taught like Mom and Dad. Ignorance is the > reason for rebirth at all. So, I wouldn's say anatta then atta then > anatta. I'd say there is wrong view of atta over countless aeons and world > cycles unless any understanding of the truth of anatta (the real state of > dhammas) is developed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I said Atta, I meaned the view of Atta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate > > Sotapatti Magga Citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S: Maybe better to say the wrong view of atta is only eradicated at this > stage. > .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As said above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: So you want theoretical knowledge of Anatta and you want to > > throw away Atta. OK, I agree as there is no Atta, then it is not a > > problem. Let's bring Anatta view before we begin the journey. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S:Good. Almost ready to start;-) One point to clarify below. > .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Are you ready with all equipment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S: Ready. Let me just ask for another clarification. In your new series(04) there's plenty of good stress on anatta and understanding different > dhammas as they arise. This being the case, why do you write `he has been > in sitting meditation for a long time'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Just typical case. In Biology there is typical cell which contains all characters of plants and animals. Anatta can be seen at any time. In the office, in the water, on top of the mountain, in the sky and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Why not, `he's been shopping, > going on a hike, cooking, talking to his boss in the office for a long > time'?? Doesn't it suggest there's still an attempt to follow and control > the paramattha dhammas, rather than understanding them as they arise, > however his life unfolds? > > Now we're agreed on all the equipment and ready to start the journey, I'm > concerned about any unnecessary limitations along the route;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Would you also explain further about what you meant by 'graduate, > postgraduate etc to Jeff with regard to the suttas?' I think I > misunderstood your comment. > ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nothing really. I just follow his thought. Thought tracing :-) Don't you think there is Atta. He said Anapana is elementary. Satipatthana and Mahasatipatthana are graduate level. So I just want to know what doctorial level is. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 31078 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Kamma - was [Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka] Hello Philip, Larry, Nina and all, At the hospital, I often am called to be with the little ones who have passed away just before or after birth as they lie in their grieving parents' arms. Often so perfect, but so dead. Such distress and anger, such asking of 'Why?' 'Why us who wanted this baby so, and are kind and decent and would have given the baby a wonderful home?', 'Why did God (or fate or the universe) do this?', 'Why didn't it happen to some of 'the others' who are criminals, or child abusers, or whose pregnancy is unwanted?'- mostly there is no answer even after an autopsy. And I used to be puzzled and confused about how this related to the Teachings of the Blessed One. How could a perfect little one who took five breaths 'deserve' such a thing? What did these loving parents do to 'deserve' such a grief and loss? This simply showed my misunderstanding of kamma as 'punishment or reward'. It showed my misunderstanding of anatta. It showed my misunderstanding of conditionality. And it showed my discounting of just how oppressive is our 'wandering on' through the immensity of 'beginningless time'. I now try to remind myself of the inconceivable age and accumulated kamma and vipaka of these streams of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena (me, you and every being) whether the body that currently supports them is one minute or one hundred years old. Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 Assu Sutta "Tears" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-003.html I like Nyanatiloka's anatta definition: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm I am looking forward to any questions or discussions you raise about Kamma and Vipaka - I know I have lots yet to understand. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: but I guess > I'm leading up to a > more serious topic, which I won't raise quite yet- I need to do more > reading in the Useful Posts on khamma, because it's a topic that I'm > sure has been discussed often enough here. (Well, no need to be > secretive about it. Someone very close to me was abused as a child, > and I have trouble with the notion that being abused is a result of > one's khamma. It seems to me that those on the passive end of cruel > behaviour due to another's khamma are in the wrong place in the wrong > time. But I'm open, as always, to a deeper understanding of > reality that may turn my current understanding inside out. 31079 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 0:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Htoo: > This is crucial notation. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Right to the bone, Htoo! ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Buddha preached in His very first Discourse called > Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. > > In that Sutta, The Buddha preached what the middle way > (Majjhimapatipada ) or Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ) is. The Buddha > preached to His very first five disciples Kondanna, Bhaddiya, Vappa, > Mahanama, and Assaji about Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ). > > Majjhimapatipada involves > > 1. Samma Ditthi > 2. Samma Sankappa > 3. Samma Kammanta > 4. Samma Vaca > 5. Samma Ajiva > 6. Samma Vayama > 7. Samma Sati > 8. Samma Samadhi > > Samma Ditthi or panna comes first while Samma Samadhi comes last as > can be seen in the Sutta. This sutta is very valuable and all the > necessary dhamma to achieve enlightenment are in that single Sutta. > When there is inability to deeply understand dhamma as they really > are then some have been crazily restlessly exploring in scriptures in > case they can obtain something as evidence so that they can arm > themselves to attack genuine Buddhists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo, one can perceive that the Noble Path doesn't touch directly Jhana or absorption. From Samma Ditthi to Samma samadhi there is a progression that increases up our understanding and conscience, but that gives the practitioner a freedom of choice about methods. You can identify or apply Jhana or ekagatta with any of the seven issues before Samma Samadhi, as Aleister Crowley could say at his poem "A- Ha!": "There are seven keys to the great door, and an eight and one of these that comprises all others." You can take either the Vipassana's path or Samattha's, or both, or none of them... and of course Buddha`s Dispensation covers all humanity and this includes our friends and beloved ones, enemies and indifferent people at large! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha preached a Sutta to Kalamas. That Sutta is called Kalama > Sutta. In that The Buddha preached that facts are not to be assumed > just because > > 1. the report says > 2. the legends say > 3. the tradition says > 4. the scripture says > 5. the logical conjecture say > 6. the inference says > 7. the analogies say > 8. the agreement through pondering view says > 9. the probability says > 10.the thought says > > to be believe so. Some self-confirm that according to their intellect > this might be correct or right or true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cf. The Mahaparinibbanasutta. This were always one of the grater messages of Buddha!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Dhamma > preached in his absence for some reasons had to be re-tell by The > Buddha as an agreement at the time of appointing so. > > Sutta were some time individualized. And some time they were preached > for the whole group. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting...Sariputta so many times posed as Buddha, when he was ill or tired out to preaching Dhamma. If you are right, so the balance's level had to be redressed on these matters soon or later! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At the very first Buddhists' Council, while Venerable Mahakassapa > acted as the Pucchaka ( questioner ), Venerable Ananda acted as the > Dhamma Bhandhagarika ( the bank of Dhamma ) as he mostly heard most > Dhamma preaching. At that time Dhamma were carried over by citation. > Recording on leaves first started at 4th Buddhists' Council. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The maintenance of the Recorded Palm Leaves was a great adventure by itself alone: buddhistic theory and practice conjoining up with perfection! There could be more printed works - PTS, BPS or whatever - about these interesting issues!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Even though lay people can learn Tipitaka, Tipitaka is being > maintained by The Sangha. They maintain so that they can preach > suitable Dhamma to suitable beings. > > I am talking these for the benefit of members that Dhamma do work > even if a single word can be understood. --------------------------------------------------------------------- One single drop of poison maculates all the pond. One single Pill of Allumen or Pothassium Chloride's can purify even the turbid water. One single Tylenol can erradicate headaches. One single shot of Bourbon can disarray your liver and beat your stomach off. One single word of Dhamma at the right occasion, time, event, etc, can erradicate all our kilesas. One single Gift of Dhamma (thanxs Connie!!!!!) can build up all buddhistic dispensation at the good way. --------------------------------------------------------------------- When there is inability to > understand , then there will only be confusion. It is not important > at all whether billions of scriptural records have been explored and > reviewed but what important is understanding. That is panna. That is > panna. That is panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- very good! very good!! very good!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > So initial understanding is very important. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- For jainists, the initial step on understanding the scriptures is the main and more important one!!!! > Htoo: > > Yes. Vitakka is putting mind on object while concentration stabilizes > mind. > > Vitakka works as Samma Sankappa while Ekaggata or concentration works > as Samma Samadhi in Noble Eightfold Path. > > Vitakka is not concentration. And concentration is not vitakka. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting again!!! The Noble Path, as I've said before, doesn't touch directly jhana issues, but Ekaggata can be identified itself with Samma Samadhi!!! Can Ekagatta in any other limbs of the Noble Path work up properly at the same line of thought ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This will depend on how deeply understood. Even though ekaggata > arises and falls away at evey moment and it arises with any citta > including vipaka citta, to talk on concentration is not too difficult > if there is no strong tag tagged. > > When a citta arises taking kusala object of meditaion, it falls away > immediately. Next citta arises taking kusala object of meditation and > it immediately falls away. When this happens successively, ekaggata > in there serves as concentration. As that concentration is on kusala > dhamma then the concentration is samadhi. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This answers my question above! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If that samadhi is associated with understanding then ( THEN ) it is > Samma Samadhi. I do not think reference would ever need here as I am > clearly and intelligibly expounding on these matter. But fools can > foolishly search in the scripture as they stabbornly think ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo... I know you aren't so stubborn to stabbing me If I say unto you that is Stubbornly and not Stabbornly... -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Concentration or jhana or absorption in simple form is not Samma > Samadhi. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said, Htoo!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Alara and Udaka were both very advanced Jhana achievers. But they > both were just Puthujana. Their Jhana is not Samma Samadhi. They were > not enlightened. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Alara Kalama and Udaka Rattaputta were Siddartha's masters just after his home departure. They were great Gurus and Yogis, but even Buddha said later that all their knowlegde didn't gave them illumination at the last end. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Devadattha attained Jhana with power. He could create 1000 bodies > like handsome prince, beautiful princess, deva, yakkha, gumbandha, > animals and so on. With that power he approached the prince > Ajatasattu whom he advised to kill his own father. The thought of > Devadattha was to make Ajatasattu a king. And he himself would kill > The Buddha so that he can make himself the buddha ( because he > thought he was a buddha. How silly! That is due to lack of Panna ). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Devadatta were the Doctor Doom (or Magneto) of Buddhism. All his life's story ressembles too much the Great Marvel Villains'!!!!!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Just before the monastry, the Earth could not bear Devadattha who > made division of The Sangha even in the presence of The Buddha ( This > is because he wants students. How silly is he! ) and who attacked The > Live Buddha by pushing very hugh stone from the high mountain. The > Buddhas are always perfected. The stone came down angrily but a small > mountain appeared and the stone was stopped but a piece of stone came > directly to The Live Buddha and The Buddha was hurt. > > The whole story reveals that Jhana in pure form is useless and even > dangerous because there is possibility of rebirth in immaterial abode > where there is no chance to see and hear The Live Buddha and His > Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The bad deeds of Doctor Doom couldn't handle a candle for this basic villain!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would say strongly here that Jhana in simple form is not Samma > Samadhi. Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. > > Vitakka is not concentration. > Vicara is not concentration. > Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. > Samma Samadhi is not right absorption. > Jhana is not a dirty word. > And many things still left to say > > May all beings have right view or Samma Ditthi and see Dhamma as they > really are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- With a warm regard, Mettaya, Ícaro (Kisses! Kisses! Kisses!) 31080 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:21pm Subject: Kamma - was [Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka] Dear Chris: There are perchance tragedies... tragedies devoided of a definite subject or self: a newborn dead baby, for example. But there are intentional, cold-minded desgracies, raised up by bad people: in my opinion is better blame such ill-deeds than throw off accusations against fate, luck, heaven or even God. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > This simply showed my misunderstanding of kamma as 'punishment or > reward'. It showed my misunderstanding of anatta. It showed my > misunderstanding of conditionality. And it showed my discounting of > just how oppressive is our 'wandering on' through the immensity > of 'beginningless time'. I now try to remind myself of the > inconceivable age and accumulated kamma and vipaka of these streams > of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena (me, you and every > being) whether the body that currently supports them is one minute or > one hundred years old. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Keep up your meditation. Mettaya, Ícaro 31081 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:45am Subject: Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah and Howard, Sarah: p.s Your qu to Nina about the Buddha or an arahant '*avoiding* pain' and '*escaping* into an absorptive state' (as we read in Mahaparinibbana sutta etc) is exactly one I've asked before to K. Sujin. As Nina said, I understand it came naturally for the Buddha and key disciples to abide in fruition consciousness. They have to spend the day somehow. Rather like it might be natural for an expert pianist to spend part of the day playing, even if he had no need to. Just a natural state by conditions. However, I also find it hard to really understand and may follow up further. I think it's a very good qu. James: I believe that A. Sujin is partly correct here. The Buddha did naturally abide in fruition consciousness, but he would also abide in deep mental absorption to rid the mind of physical pain. This was something that he taught all of his noble disciples to do. I will be quoting from two sections of MN 36 "The Greater Discourse to Saccaka", and some commentary notes, to illustrate: "And how, Aggivessana, is one developed in body and developed in mind? Here, Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in a well-taught noble disciple. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed. And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed. Anyone in whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed, and arisen painful feeling does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed, is thus developed in body and developed in mind." 384 "I have confidence in Master Gotama thus: "Master Gotama is developed in body and developed in mind." "Surely, Aggivessana, your words are offensive and discourteous, but still I will answer you. Since I shaved off my hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and went forth from the home life into homelessness, it has not been possible for arisen pleasant feeling to invade my mind and remain or for arisen painful feeling to invade my mind and remain." "Has there never arisen in Master Gotama a feeling so pleasant that it could invade his mind and remain? Has there never arisen in Master Gotama a feeling so painful that it could invade his mind and remain?" "Why not, Aggivessana?..." 385 Note 384: MA explains the "development of body" here is insight, and "development of mind" concentration. When the noble disciple experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it because, through his development of insight, he understands the feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self; and when he experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it because, through his development of concentration, he is able to escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions. Note:385: Now the Buddha will answer Saccaka's questions by showing first the extremely painful feelings he experienced during the course of ascetic practices, and thereafter the extremely pleasant feelings he experienced during his meditative attainments preceding his enlightenment. ***************** "Aggivessana, I recall teaching the Dhamma to an assembly of many hundreds. Perhaps each person thinks: `The recluse Gotama is teaching the Dhamma especially for me.' But it should not be so regarded; the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma to others only to give them knowledge. When the talk is finished, Aggivessana, then I steady my mind internally, quieten it, bring it to singleness, and concentrate it on that same sign of concentration as before, in which I constantly abide." 392 Note: 392: MA explains the "sign of concentration" (samadhinimitta) here as the fruition attainment of emptiness (sunnata- phalasamapatti). See also MN 122.6 James: Hope this sheds some light on the matter. Sarah, I have picked a sutta from the "Brahmasamyutta" that I want to present but it is very long and has many important considerations to different sections (10 "Kokalika"). I am still pondering how I want to present it and what I think is important. In other words, I haven't forgotten my assignment! ;-)) Just still working on it. Metta, James 31082 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 3:26pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 07 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has been practising meditation for some time. He is doing breathing meditation and he is attending at his nostril. At first air hitting his nostril is not very conspicuous and it hits and hits and hits. With practice, he manages to stay in a calm state attending at nostril. At an unmarked time he sees that the air coming in and going out of his nostril is like sparks which is quite bright like a fireworks firecrackles. He notices that he just compares his perception of breathing to firecrackles which was past perception. He recognizes that perception arises. As he continues to meditate on breathing and he still sees that the air coming in and going out is like a firecrackles crackling with sparks and he notices that perception persists. When perception falls away he notices that perception passes away. That perception is not him or his. There is no self or atta in the whole process here. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. When he is sitting he remembers that he has been sitting for a long time. And he tries to change a bit his sitting and he then changes so that some discomfort can be diminished. He remembers his long sitting and he remembers his past sitting position and he also cognizes the present position of sitting. All he remembers are just perception or sanna and he knows all these through out his meditation section. When perception arises he recognizes that perception arises and while they are persisting he notices that they are persisting. When they fall away he recognizes that they just pass away. All these dhamma sanna or perception just arise and fall away. These perception are just clinging aggregates and they are called sannakkhandha. These perception are not him or his. There is no trace of him or his and there is no self in the whole process. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. May you all see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31083 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 4:32pm Subject: Bye bye Hello All, Just a quick note to let you know that I will be taking a sabbatical from the list. I am not stepping out of the list completely but will not be receiving any e-mails in my inbox. I have decided to enjoy the silence in my meditation instead of the clatter in the list. Those who are firm believers in the paramatha/pannatti duality may feel some relieve that I will not be available to pester them, but I still wish that some of them do not have such a thick layer of dust over their eyes, and thus will be able to realize that the teachings of the Buddha have a much greater depth and subtlety. I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. Metta Michael 31084 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi, James (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/8/2004 2:45:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Sarah and Howard, > > Sarah: p.s Your qu to Nina about the Buddha or an > arahant '*avoiding* pain' and '*escaping* into an absorptive state' > (as we read in Mahaparinibbana sutta etc) is exactly one I've asked > before to K. Sujin. As Nina said, I understand it came naturally for > the Buddha and key disciples to abide in fruition consciousness. > They have to spend the day somehow. Rather like it might be natural > for an expert pianist to spend part of the day playing, even if he > had no need to. Just a natural state by conditions. However, I also > find it hard to really understand and may follow up further. I think > it's a very good qu. > > James: I believe that A. Sujin is partly correct here. The Buddha > did naturally abide in fruition consciousness, but he would also > abide in deep mental absorption to rid the mind of physical pain. > This was something that he taught all of his noble disciples to do. > I will be quoting from two sections of MN 36 "The Greater Discourse > to Saccaka", and some commentary notes, to illustrate: > > "And how, Aggivessana, is one developed in body and developed in > mind? Here, Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in a well-taught > noble disciple. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust > after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant > feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, > painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does > not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast > and become distraught. When that pleasant feeling has arisen in > him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is > developed. And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it does > not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed. Anyone in > whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling does not invade > his mind and remain because body is developed, and arisen painful > feeling does not invade his mind and remain because mind is > developed, is thus developed in body and developed in mind." 384 > > "I have confidence in Master Gotama thus: "Master Gotama is > developed in body and developed in mind." > > "Surely, Aggivessana, your words are offensive and discourteous, but > still I will answer you. Since I shaved off my hair and beard, put > on the yellow robe, and went forth from the home life into > homelessness, it has not been possible for arisen pleasant feeling > to invade my mind and remain or for arisen painful feeling to invade > my mind and remain." > > "Has there never arisen in Master Gotama a feeling so pleasant that > it could invade his mind and remain? Has there never arisen in > Master Gotama a feeling so painful that it could invade his mind and > remain?" > > "Why not, Aggivessana?..." 385 > > Note 384: MA explains the "development of body" here is insight, > and "development of mind" concentration. When the noble disciple > experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it > because, through his development of insight, he understands the > feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self; and when he > experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it > because, through his development of concentration, he is able to > escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions. > > Note:385: Now the Buddha will answer Saccaka's questions by showing > first the extremely painful feelings he experienced during the > course of ascetic practices, and thereafter the extremely pleasant > feelings he experienced during his meditative attainments preceding > his enlightenment. > ***************** > "Aggivessana, I recall teaching the Dhamma to an assembly of many > hundreds. Perhaps each person thinks: `The recluse Gotama is > teaching the Dhamma especially for me.' But it should not be so > regarded; the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma to others only to give > them knowledge. When the talk is finished, Aggivessana, then I > steady my mind internally, quieten it, bring it to singleness, and > concentrate it on that same sign of concentration as before, in > which I constantly abide." 392 > > Note: 392: MA explains the "sign of concentration" (samadhinimitta) > here as the fruition attainment of emptiness (sunnata- > phalasamapatti). See also MN 122.6 > > James: Hope this sheds some light on the matter. Sarah, I have > picked a sutta from the "Brahmasamyutta" that I want to present but > it is very long and has many important considerations to different > sections (10 "Kokalika"). I am still pondering how I want to > present it and what I think is important. In other words, > I haven't > forgotten my assignment! ;-)) Just still working on it. > > Metta, James ============================= James, I don't see why the opposite of the commentarial interpretation couldn't be just as plausible: Pleasant feeling doesn't enter the mind because it is as nothing compared to jhanic joy or jhanic equanimity, and unpleasant feeling doesn't enter the mind because of insight into impermanence, impersonality, insubstantiality etc. For that matter, why couldn't insight be the answer to both! Also, the terminology of "the body being developed" is a strange one regardless of how it is interpreted. So I feel that nothing very definitive has been revealed here. These commentarial notes are unpersuasive to me. With metta, Howard 31085 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: too much Hi Nina, I want to go all the way to the end of Visuddhimagga. I'm sure Jim will be back in the spring. Larry 31086 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye bye MIchael This is not a ploy to keep you active on the list, although I will of course miss your contribution to the discussion ;-)) --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello All, > > Just a quick note to let you know that I will be taking a > sabbatical from the list. I am not stepping out of the list > completely but will not be receiving any e-mails in my inbox. I > have decided to enjoy the silence in my meditation instead of the > clatter in the list. Those who are firm believers in the > paramatha/pannatti duality may feel some relieve that I will not be > available to pester them, but I still wish that some of them do not > have such a thick layer of dust over their eyes, and thus will be > able to realize that the teachings of the Buddha have a much > greater depth and subtlety. > I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. > Metta > Michael I would really like to know what you see as the 'problem' with the distinction between dhammas that can be directly experienced and concepts that are creations of the mind. What in your view is the implication of positing such a distinction and, in particular, which aspects of the teachings as found in the suttas and abhidhamma do you see it as contradicting? I hope you will give us something meaty to ponder over in your absence. Jon 31087 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 5:59pm Subject: Vism.XIV 63 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 63. 16. The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to display the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or it is manifested as untouchedness, as the state of gaps and apertures (cf. Dhs. 638). Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited that 'this is above, below, around, that'. 31088 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi Nina, I was wondering in what sense space is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not self. Is it so because space is actually 'edge', a characteristic of matter? Larry 31089 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 6:15pm Subject: Re: Bye bye Dear Michael Good Bye! With time I will translate you some material from english texts ( Sinhalese and Thai ones will better wait ) for your site, as a Dhamma Gift. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- the teachings of the Buddha have a much greater depth and subtlety. > I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope so. Mettaya, Ícaro 31090 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 6:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Dear Larry > I was wondering in what sense space is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not > self. Is it so because space is actually 'edge', a characteristic of > matter? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Space - akasa - is classified as a "non-real" Paramattha Dhamma, as Bodily language or vocal intimation. one can keep in mind that there were issues that Buddha refused to judge or expound to others, like the infinitude of Space, the origin of world, etc. Mettaya, Ícaro 31091 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi, Icaro (and Larry, and Nina, and all) - In a message dated 3/8/04 9:21:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > Space - akasa - is classified as a "non-real" Paramattha Dhamma > ========================== And what, pray tell, is that? (Besides being a contradiction in terms! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31092 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi all, There is a slight discrepancy between the PTS (?) translation from MN 140 Nina gave and B. ~Nanamoli's: PTS: "And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the mouth..." ~N: "What is the internal space element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is space, spatial, and clung-to, that is, the holes of the ears, the nostrils, the door of the mouth..." L: The first one has "derived therefrom" and the second one has "clung-to". Larry 31093 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi Howard and Icaro, U Rewata Dhamma has this note on "non-concretely produced matter" in CMA p. 241: "The types of matter in groups (8) - (11) are designated non-concretely produced matter (anipphannaruupa) because they do not arise directly from the four main causes of matter but exist as modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter. Thus they are not included among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." [8 - 11 = space element, 2 intimations, lightness, malleability, weildiness, production of matter, continuity of matter, decay, impermanence] The basic 8 inseparables Nina referred to are earth, water, fire, air, color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. All rupa is produced in inseparable groups. There is no space between smell and taste. But there is space between clusters of inseparable groups. It seems to me all these clusters have conventional names like hand, foot, mouth, bread, bicycle. Sense organs separate the inseparables. Smell is cognized separately from taste. Can we say in the cognitive series rupa is delimited by impermanence? Larry 31094 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye bye Hi Michael, I second Jon's request--not an unreasonable one, I think (and hope). mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye bye > MIchael > > This is not a ploy to keep you active on the list, although I will of > course miss your contribution to the discussion ;-)) > > --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello All, > > > > Just a quick note to let you know that I will be taking a > > sabbatical from the list. I am not stepping out of the list > > completely but will not be receiving any e-mails in my inbox. I > > have decided to enjoy the silence in my meditation instead of the > > clatter in the list. Those who are firm believers in the > > paramatha/pannatti duality may feel some relieve that I will not be > > available to pester them, but I still wish that some of them do not > > have such a thick layer of dust over their eyes, and thus will be > > able to realize that the teachings of the Buddha have a much > > greater depth and subtlety. > > I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. > > Metta > > Michael > > I would really like to know what you see as the 'problem' with the > distinction between dhammas that can be directly experienced and > concepts that are creations of the mind. > > What in your view is the implication of positing such a distinction > and, in particular, which aspects of the teachings as found in the > suttas and abhidhamma do you see it as contradicting? > > I hope you will give us something meaty to ponder over in your > absence. > > Jon 31095 From: Tahn Aaron Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Sending Acariya Mun Biographies for free distribution Hi everyone, My name's Aaron and I'm a monk staying at Wat Pa Baan Taad - Acariya Maha Boowa's monastery in Northeastern Thailand. I subscribed to many Theravadan groups last night, for I am trying to gather together a list of mailing addresses of international Buddhist communities, organizations, monasteries, meditation groups, etc... who would be interested in receiving a shipment of the new 2nd edition English translation of Venerable Acariya Mun's biography to share amongst their friends and families, members of other Buddhist groups, public or university/college libraries, and/or whoever else they might think would be interested in reading it. Acariya Mun's biography was written by Acariya Maha Boowa in 1971, and translated by one of his long-time American disciples - Acariya Dick Silaratano- for several years before it was first printed in 2003. Last year, the biography was registered with the National Library of Congress in the United States and it has recently been given the ISBN - 974-92007-4-8 which makes the book more convenient to use by computerized libraries. The new English translation of the Acariya Mun Biography can be downloaded or read from: http://www.luangta.com/english/site/book8_biomun.html should you like to review the book we wish to send overseas. Just to assure everyone - the cost of shipping the books is covered over here in Thailand and Acariya Maha Boowa's books are always given away for free distribution. At present, many copies of the biography are being printed in Bangkok which will be sent overseas in about a month's time. We are now contacting Buddhist groups and organizations worldwide to see if they'd be willing to receive them and share them out amongst their members. So, should any Buddhist community be interested in receiving a shipment of Acariya Mun's Biography could you please reply to this email at aaronrychlo@m... , sending me your contact information, mailing address - and an estimation of how many people belong to your community so we will be able to send you an appropriate amount of copies? If anyone has any more questions, please feel free to reply and ask them. Thanks you for your time Regards, Tahn Aaron Forest Dhamma Books Wat Pa Baan Taad Baan Taad Ampher Meuang Udon Thani 41000 Thailand www.luangta.com/english/site/books.php 31096 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:08pm Subject: New Member Dear Friends, I am a new arrival. I expect to be a learner rather than a learned communicator. I have examined some of the posts here and am much impressed. I see I will be challenged to keep up or even understand the discussion. I am deeply committed to Buddhism after traveling from no religion to Roman Catholicism to the Sufis to the Hindus. It was the mystics who attracted me. A Theravadin monk I met accidentally introduced me to Buddhism and gave me books to study. He was my biggest inspiration. He was everything he preached. Buddhist practice is now the center of my life, though I also publish a magazine and provide spiritual and other help to prisoners. I bring mindfulness to my work as much as possible because I don't want to be far from practice. I am here because Htoo Naing posted this link to our Buddhist Wellness Group. He has posted helpful Buddhist guides that I have followed as closely as possible. As I said, I consider myself a learner. Thank you for being here and making this experience possible. with loving kindness for all, Doret 31097 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye bye Hi Michael, I’d just like to add that personally, I’ve greatly appreciated all our discussions and your threads with others as well. Your contribution here is very valuable and I hope you’ll pop back in from time to time. We’ll be waiting;-) We all have diferent definitions of ‘clatter’, it seems. Certainly I feel no relief at the prospect of not being ‘pestered’ by you or anyone else;-) Hope we can continue inspecting the dust together and appreciating ‘the greater depth and subtlety' you mention as wisdom grows. Thanks again for your kind wishes and all your great contributions to date. Metta, Sarah ====== 31098 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Sarah) - James, I don't see why the opposite of the commentarial interpretation couldn't be just as plausible: Pleasant feeling doesn't enter the mind because it is as nothing compared to jhanic joy or jhanic equanimity, and unpleasant feeling doesn't enter the mind because of insight into impermanence, impersonality, insubstantiality etc. For that matter, why couldn't insight be the answer to both! Also, the terminology of "the body being developed" is a strange one regardless of how it is interpreted. So I feel that nothing very definitive has been revealed here. These commentarial notes are unpersuasive to me. > > With metta, > Howard Okay, you don't have to believe it or anything. I was just offering the information for your perusal. Honestly, when I first read this information I was somewhat taken aback myself, but then I considered deeply why. I realized that I was taken aback because the information didn't fit in with my preconceived notions of what a Buddha's and/or an Arahant's mind is like. So, rather than argue with the commentary or try to find flaws in it, I realized that I don't really know what the Buddha's mind was like. I don't agree with all commentary notes but when you read the entire conversation in this sutta, what the Buddha was explaining, the commentary notes are pretty solid. They fit the context perfectly of what the Buddha was saying. Have you read the whole sutta? I also don't understand why you don't like the terminology of `the body being developed' and characterize it as `strange'. You don't have a choice in the matter! LOL! That is what the Buddha said. Rather than just dismiss it as `strange' you should try to understand what he meant. Look at this subject a different way: You believe that the Buddha should have been able to eliminate pain with insight; could the Buddha also eliminate sickness with insight? (Don't ask Deepak Chopra that question! LOL!). Aren't there certain things that are just intrinsic to the human body that cannot be eliminated with insight? Just consider that. The Buddha didn't have any pain medication so he would enter mental absorption to keep the tranquility of his mind in the face of extreme pain. Makes perfect sense to me and doesn't reveal any weakness or dosa. Metta, James 31099 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 10:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Dear Doret (& Htoo), --- Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I am a new arrival. I expect to be a learner rather > than a learned communicator. I have examined > some of the posts here and am much impressed. > I see I will be challenged to keep up or even > understand the discussion. .... S: Welcome to DSG! Many thanks for sending this introductory post. Pls don’t be concerned if you can’t follow all the discussions - it’s always rather difficult coming in on threads that are underway. Feel free to ask for any clarifications or assistance. .... > I am deeply committed to Buddhism after traveling > from no religion to Roman Catholicism to the Sufis > to the Hindus. It was the mystics who attracted me. > A Theravadin monk I met accidentally introduced me > to Buddhism and gave me books to study. He was > my biggest inspiration. He was everything he preached. .... S: This is very interesting. May I ask who the monk was and where you met him? .... > Buddhist practice is now the center of my life, though I > also publish a magazine and provide spiritual and > other help to prisoners. I bring mindfulness to my work > as much as possible because I don't want to be far > from practice. ..... S: This is most commenable. I’m sure we’ll all look forward to hearing more about your work. Which country are you in? A long time back in England (before Jon and I were married), he was sending me boxes of Nina’s book ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ which I was distributing in temples and prisons with the help of a friend. ..... > I am here because Htoo Naing posted this link to our > Buddhist Wellness Group. He has posted helpful > Buddhist guides that I have followed as closely as > possible. As I said, I consider myself a learner. ..... S: We’re all learners here, Doret. You’ll see that Htoo is also considered a good friend here and shares many guides and comments with us too. .... > Thank you for being here and making this experience > possible. .... S: I’m sure I speak for everyone when I thank you for joining us too. A few map signs which may help: 1.Please note that posts can also be read or searched here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ 2. A selection of posts from the archives (selected by the moderators) can be seen here under Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Some topics to look for maybe: -New to the list -Abhidhamma for beginners 3. A simple Pali glossary can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms 4. A very useful Pali dictionary can be found at: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html 5. Two texts are being referred to a lot on the list at the moment. If you have a copy or access to a library copy it’s helpful: a) Visuddhimagga, Path of Purification, available from BPS or Pariyatti b) Samyutta Nikaya, Connected Discourses of the Buddha, available from Wisdom and many sources, transl by B.Bodhi ***** I think the best thing for newcomers is to just start threads of your own, so we look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah p.s You may also like to take a look in the photo album to get more idea of who you’re talking to. If you or any other newcomers have a pic to add, we’ll all be delighted. (We’re still waiting for Htoo’s;-);-)) ================================== 31100 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack & Christine, C:> I'd be interested in your reference to where the Blessed One said > there were 94,000 ways to reach enlightenment - perhaps a typo? :-) > I have heard of 84,000 doors but have never been given a Tipitaka > source. <...> J:> I meant 84,000. I don't know where it says this in the suttas. .... Sarah: I think 84,000 refers to the number of units in the Tipitaka as rehearsed at the first Council. Reference is made to it in the Atthasalini (Expositor), the Bahiranidana (Intro to the Vinaya) and other commentaries. More detail was given in these earlier posts I wrote in a series on the Bahiranidana: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9961 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10143 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10310 I’ll just give a few extracts and added comments for those who’re busy;-): “All this forms the word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment, twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first, intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), ninefold according to the Angas (Factors), and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.” .... S:In other words, the 84,000 does not refer to ‘different ways’ or ‘doors’ but to the collection of teachings, ‘uniform in sentiment’ as the passage above from the Bahiranidana continues to indicate: .... “How is it uniform in sentiment? During the interval of forty-five years from the time He realized the unique and perfect Enlightenment until he passed away in the element of Nibbana being free from clinging to the material substratum, whatever the Exalted One has said either as instruction to devas, men, nagas, yakkhas, and other beings or on reflection, has but one sentiment and that is emancipation. Thus it is uniform as regards sentiment.’” **** S: Of the 84,000 units, 82,000 are said to be taken from the Buddha and 2,000 from the bhikkhus. ..... “Herein, a sutta with a unitary application is one Unit of the Dhamma. Whatever is of multiple application, the number of Units of the Dhamma in it depends on the number of topics of application. In metrical compositions the question and the answer form two different Units of the Dhamma. In the Abhidhamma, each analysis of a triad or a dyad or the analysis of each thought-process forms a separate Unit of the dhamma. In the Vinays, there are the subjects for rules, tabulations, analysis of terms, secondary conditions of guilt, and of innocence and the demarcation of the threefold delimiting factors of offences. Herein, each category should be understood as a separate Unit of the Dhamma. Thus it has 84,000 divisions according to the Units of Dhamma. “Thus, this word of the Buddha which is uniform in sentiment taken as a whole (without division), and consists of such divisions as the Dhamma and the Vinaya in the divisions such as those into two and so forth, has been laid down as, 'This is the Dhamma and this is the Vinaya, these are the first, intermediate, and final sayings of the Buddha, these are the Vinaya, Sutta, and Abhidhamma Pitakas, these are the Nikayas from Digha to Khuddaka, these are the nine angas commencing with sutta and these are the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma,' was rehearsed together by the assembly of self-controlled monks with Mahakassapa as their leader verily observing this distinction. “And not only this, but other divers distinctions in compilation to be met in the three Pitakas, such as the stanzas containing lists of contents, the arrangement into chapters, noting down the repetitions, and the classification into kindred sections of ones, twos, and so forth, that into groups of kindred topics, and into group of fifties and so forth, have been determined when it was rehearsed together in seven months” .... S: This is referring to the rehearsal which lasted seven months of the texts at the First Council, clearly including the Abhidhamma Pitaka. .... “And at the conclusion of its rehearsal this great earth trembled and quaked, shook and shook violently many times over, up to its ocean-limits as though giving its blessing at the joy produced that this dispensation of the Lord of Ten Powers had been made by the Elder Mahakassapa to last a period of time extending 5,000 years. And many wondrous things became manifest. And this is the First Great Convocation ......” **** S: All the quotes above were from the Baahiranidaana (of the Samantapaasaadikaa, the Vinaya Commentary), transl by N.A, Jayawickrama, PTS. Hope this helps. Still only One Way -- that of satipatthana -- as I understand. Metta, Sarah ===== 31101 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack HI Jack & Jeff, S:>.....as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is > essential > for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right > understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. ... Jack: > I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper > understanding of an object is necessary before one does > samadhi/vipassana meditation? ..... S: Yes, I think that when there is right understanding of how an object of samatha conditions calm and other wholesome states at this moment or when there is right understanding of a nama or rupa, then there are conditions for samatha and vipassana to develop without requiring any idea of ‘doing’ anything. To give a simple example for both: a) Metta is an object of samatha bhavana. Recently here there’s been some discussion about the quality of metta. I gave this quote from the commentary to the first stanza of the metta sutta: “Or alternatively, the word ‘gentle’ (mudu: lit. ‘malleable’) [means that]he would be without grimaces (see Vis ch i,61), open-countenanced, easy to talk with and as welcoming as a good ford with an easy approach. “And he would be not only gentle but also ‘not proud’(anatimaanii) as well; he would not be proud towards others on account of such grounds forpride as birth, race, etc, but would abide like Elder Sariputta even-minded [to all alike] whether outcaste or prince (A.iv,376).” **** S: By reflecting and understanding the quality of metta and developing it when there are opportunities, like now as we speak to each other but without any attachment or wishing to be ‘the person with metta’, there can be conditions for the development of calm with metta as object. Without a clearer and clearer understanding of the quality of metta, it cannot be developed or known. b) Sound as an object of vipassana. Likewise, vipassana(insight) or satipatthana cannot be developed without a clearer and clearer understanding of the objects to be known as they appear at this moment. So now, there are many sense door and mind door processes, but are any namas or rupas understood? We think we hear the sounds of birds, or fans or clicking of the keyboard but this is an illusion of subjectivity I think Howard would say;-) In reality, there are just different experiences of hearing, seeing, smelling and so on and the objects, the rupas, which are heard, seen and so on. Because the sense experiences are immediately followed by thinking and other mind-door activity, we’re left with the illusion of hearing the key-board and a ‘self’ that does this hearing. Therefore, whether we sit on a cusion or read a book or go for a hike, it is the clear understanding which will be the main factor in the development of satipatthana as I understand, rather than the cushion or book or hill. .... Jack: > I also am not sure what you mean by proper understanding of an object. > If > one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what > does one > have to understand about it before using it in mental development? .... S: A very good and difficult question;-) It is the right attention and other 'rights' rather than the breath which will make the difference. Just concentrating on breath or any other object in itself, will not make the consciousness wholesome. Why should it? At a most elementary level, I find it useful to reflect on how life and all we hold dear and important depends on this very in and out-breath. Without breath there’d be no life at all. Even a little wise reflection like this can be a condition for calm. However, I don’t believe it’s given as an object that can easily condition calm with wise reflection in daily life at all, unlike metta, death or the qualities of the Buddha, for example, which are easier to understand, I think. What I think is difficult is that as soon as there’s an effort or wish to focus on breath (or death or metta or a kasina) in order to have calm or to develop samatha, or on a paramattha dhamma in order to develop vipassana, then wishing and attachment springs up immediately. Still, with wise attention and awareness, even such attachment can be the object of understanding. I think such clinging is far more insiduous than we realise, however, and here I’m definitely speaking from experience;-) .... Jack: > Sorry, but the more times I read your above comments the more confused I > got. > I couldn't find the post you sent to Victor so that might be my problem. ..... S: I understand it probably sounds very idiosyncratic;-)Please let me know if I can explain any further. This was the controversial treadmill post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m26382.html If you have any spare time, you may also wish to look in U.P. under some of these headings: satipatthana samatha concentration vipassana anapanasati http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts **** S: Jeff, you wrote: Jeff: >What is the big deal about "right understanding?" It seems that it is a way for > insight practitioners to find some line to draw between their tidy little patch > of dry farming and the moist rain forest of jhana. It reminds me of the two > yards that are almost adjoining. One neighbor is armed with chemical defoliants to kill all signs of life as they creep over from the guy next door who is rain > harvesting and mulching his organic garden. .... S: Christine helpfully answered the first question (post 31023) with good quotes, relevant to my journey with Htoo as well;-) I hope the comments above may also be helpful or at least food for further discussion. Jeff, I like your examples here;-) Frankly, I have no agenda or chemical defoliants for keeping any ‘tidy little patch’ and am a great lover of rain forests and organic gardens. I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding by all of us as to our farming practices, however, and would urge a careful consideration of the basics so that we are not under any illusion of either having a ‘tidy little patch’ or a ‘rain forest’ when in truth we just have some weeds and straggly creepers and tangles to be disentangled with wisdom: ***** SN1:23 (Bodhi translation), Tangle “A tangle inside, a tangle outside, this generation is entangled in a tangle. I ask you this, O Gotama, Who can disentangle this tangle?” “A man established on virtue, wise, Developing the mind and wisdom, A bhikkhu ardent and discreet: He can disentangle this tangle.” **** S: In the Dhammasangani (A Buddhist manual of Psychological Ethics, PTS),1059, attachment is described in many ways, including as an illusion (maayaa), a forest (vana.m), a jungle (vanatho) -- which is referring to the ‘impenetrable, impassable nature of tropical forest growth which serves to illustrate the dangers of lobha--, an obstruction (aavara.na.m), an obsession (pariyu.t.thaana.m) and a creeper (lataa) to name just a very few from the long list. Referring to the creeper, the footnote adds that greed or lust strangles its victim, as a creeper strangles a tree. The Dhammapada uses the same word in verse 340, stressing again that it is wisdom which cuts off the root: “...Ta~n ca disvaa lata’m jaata’m muula’m pa~n`naaya chindatha” “Seeing the creeper that has sprung up, with wisdom cut off root.” I look forward to further comments from either of you or anyone else. Metta, Sarah ======= 31102 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 0:00am Subject: Re: Bye bye Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello All, > > Just a quick note to let you know that I will be taking a sabbatical from the list. I am not stepping out of the list completely but will not be receiving any e-mails in my inbox. I have decided to enjoy the silence in my meditation instead of the clatter in the list. Those who are firm believers in the paramatha/pannatti duality may feel some relieve that I will not be available to pester them, but I still wish that some of them do not have such a thick layer of dust over their eyes, and thus will be able to realize that the teachings of the Buddha have a much greater depth and subtlety. > I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. > Metta > Michael I will be sorry to see you go, even temporarily. Your presence in this group has helped me immensely- your articulation of what I instinctively felt solved many conflicts in my heart and mind. I wish you well in your practice and for the growth of continued serenity and stillness. When there is stillness within there will be stillness without, regardless of the circumstances. When you establish that stillness I hope that you will come back. Metta, James 31103 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:17am Subject: Aspects of Speech-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.10 Dear Group, This sutta puts forward the point that we can think we are good people, everyone else can think we are good people, but the defilements lay hiding waiting for an opportunity to arise. A person can seem even-tempered, calm and gentle until a particular situtation occurs i.e. the right buttons are pushed, and anger and hatred erupt. The story of Lady Vedehika, the five aspects of speech, and the simile of the saw are great reminders to us all not to assume that progress towards equanimity is irreversible. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- § 2.10. "Once, monks, in this same Savatthi, there was a lady of a household named Vedehika. This good report about Lady Vedehika had circulated: 'Lady Vedehika is gentle. Lady Vedehika is even-tempered. Lady Vedehika is calm.' Now, Lady Vedehika had a slave named Kali who was diligent, deft, & neat in her work. The thought occurred to Kali the slave: 'This good report about my Lady Vedehika has circulated: "Lady Vedehika is even-tempered. Lady Vedehika is gentle. Lady Vedehika is calm." Now, is anger present in my lady without showing, or is it absent? Or is it just because I'm diligent, deft, & neat in my work that the anger present in my lady doesn't show? Why don't I test her?' "So Kali the slave got up after daybreak. Then Lady Vedehika said to her: 'Hey, Kali!' "'Yes, madam?' "'Why did you get up after daybreak?' "'No reason, madam.' "'No reason, you wicked slave, and yet you get up after daybreak?' Angered & displeased, she scowled. Then the thought occurred to Kali the slave: 'Anger is present in my lady without showing, and not absent. And it's just because I'm diligent, deft, & neat in my work that the anger present in my lady doesn't show. Why don't I test her some more?' "So Kali the slave got up later in the day. Then Lady Vedehika said to her: 'Hey, Kali!' "'Yes, madam?' "'Why did you get up later in the day?' "'No reason, madam.' "'No reason, you wicked slave, and yet you get up later in the day?' Angered & displeased, she grumbled. Then the thought occurred to Kali the slave: 'Anger is present in my lady without showing, and not absent. And it's just because I'm diligent, deft, & neat in my work that the anger present in my lady doesn't show. Why don't I test her some more?' "So Kali the slave got up even later in the day. Then Lady Vedehika said to her: 'Hey, Kali!' "'Yes, madam?' "'Why did you get up even later in the day?' "'No reason, madam.' "'No reason, you wicked slave, and yet you get up even later in the day?' Angered & displeased, she grabbed hold of a rolling pin and gave her a whack over the head, cutting it open. Then Kali the slave, with blood streaming from her cut-open head, went and denounced her mistress to the neighbors: 'See, ladies, the gentle one's handiwork? See the even-tempered one's handiwork? See the calm one's handiwork? How could she, angered & displeased with her only slave for getting up after daybreak, grab hold of a rolling pin and give her a whack over the head, cutting it open?' "After that this evil report about Lady Vedehika circulated: 'Lady Vedehika is vicious. Lady Vedehika is foul-tempered. Lady Vedehika is violent.' "In the same way, monks, a monk may be ever so gentle, ever so even- tempered, ever so calm, as long as he is not touched by disagreeable aspects of speech. But it is only when disagreeable aspects of speech touch him that he can truly be known as gentle, even-tempered, & calm. I don't call a monk easy to admonish if he is easy to admonish and makes himself easy to admonish only by reason of robes, almsfood, lodging, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick. Why is that? Because if he doesn't get robes, almsfood, lodging, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick, then he isn't easy to admonish and doesn't make himself easy to admonish. But if a monk is easy to admonish and makes himself easy to admonish purely out of esteem for the Dhamma, respect for the Dhamma, reverence for the Dhamma, then I call him easy to admonish. Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will be easy to admonish and make ourselves easy to admonish purely out of esteem for the Dhamma, respect for the Dhamma, reverence for the Dhamma.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose that a man were to come along carrying a hoe & a basket, saying, 'I will make this great earth be without earth.' He would dig here & there, scatter soil here & there, spit here & there, urinate here & there, saying, 'Be without earth. Be without earth.' Now, what do you think -- would he make this great earth be without earth?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because this great earth is deep & enormous. It can't easily be made to be without earth. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to the great earth -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose that a man were to come along carrying lac, yellow orpiment, indigo, or crimson, saying, 'I will draw pictures in space, I will make pictures appear.' Now, what do you think -- would he draw pictures in space & make pictures appear?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because space is formless & featureless. It's not easy to draw pictures there and to make them appear. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to space -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose that a man were to come along carrying a burning grass torch and saying, 'With this burning grass torch I will heat up the river Ganges and make it boil.' Now, what do you think -- would he, with that burning grass torch, heat up the river Ganges and make it boil?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because the river Ganges is deep & enormous. It's not easy to heat it up and make it boil with a burning grass torch. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to the river Ganges -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose there were a catskin bag -- beaten, well-beaten, beaten through & through, soft, silky, free of rustling & crackling -- and a man were to come along carrying a stick or shard and saying, 'With this stick or shard I will take this catskin bag -- beaten, well- beaten, beaten through & through, soft, silky, free of rustling & crackling -- and I will make it rustle & crackle.' Now, what do you think -- would he, with that stick or shard, take that catskin bag -- beaten, well-beaten, beaten through & through, soft, silky, free of rustling & crackling -- and make it rustle & crackle?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because the catskin bag is beaten, well- beaten, beaten through & through, soft, silky, free of rustling & crackling. It's not easy to make it rustle & crackle with a stick or shard. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to a catskin bag - - abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" "No, lord." "Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words."[MN 21] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31104 From: Andrew Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Upadhi Dear Nina Thank you for this extra information on upadhi. It gives me a sense of the difficulties involved in translation (and perhaps how easily doctrinal errors can stem from inaccurate translation). > N: I have the Sutta Nipata in K.R. Norman's translation and he adds a note; > Two meanings: objects which one amasses and also: which one has for such things, which form an attachment and lead one back to > rebirth. The word is, therefore, very often translated as substrate (of > renewed existence)", and also as "affection". So a man with sons or cattle > rejoices because he has sons or cattle, which he loves. He also grieves > because he has sons or cattle, which attach him to the world and cause him > to be reborn.> > Thus I would say the second noble truth and the first noble truth are > contained in these terms. The attachment to children and cattle is the cause > of dukkha, of rebirth. You wrote: > N: I feel very sorry for you, Sandra and your family. Is he still staying at > your house? Thank you for your kind thoughts. Yes, Sandra's father lives with us on the farm and would like to stay here until the end. We will do all we can to accomodate his wishes. You wrote: When we think of different moments of > vipaka experienced through the senses we can understand that all such > moments are dukkha. It is so unexpected what we experience and often a real > surprise, pleasant or unpleasant. We never know beforehand. A reminder that > birth and rebirth are dukkha. A: My reflections, too, were focussed on the absence of control. So much like being swept along in a flood. > N: And this is Abhidhamma, this is life. Because of the two meanings we > cannot say that upadhi is synonymous with lobha. Lobha is only one aspect. A: My question was a bit broad. I need to finish reading my CMA and taking notes! As a matter of fact, I will be taking a break from my various email groups for a while. Hope to catch up with you all some time in the future. With Best wishes Andrew 31105 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > k: I know what you are saying but I think both of you dont know what > I am saying, that is why I say there are times in between there are > satipatthana. .... S: Of course. Even when there is some understanding of the value of satipatthana and its development, moments of right undersanding accompanied by the other factors, are very infrequent, especially for beginners like us;-) Why? Not enough detachment from conditioned realities - so much accumulated ignorance and attachment to certain states, including wholesome ones;-) .... K:>I am not speculating, what I am saying we cannot > expect to continue to have satipatthana while we are doing akusala > actions. .... S: While we continue to think in terms of ‘situations’ - the good ones, the bad ones and so on, I think it’s hard to have understanding of the namas and rupas involved. Like in the discussions on kamma-vipaka. We think of a terrible or wonderful occurrence, always forgetting that vipaka is just one brief moment of seeing or hearing and so on. In the same way, what we call a kusala or akusala action involves a multitude of changing cittas, cetasikas and objects experienced. Any nama or rupa can be known, even strong akusala namas. In fact, they have to be known and sati and panna can slip in anytime. Because they are not strong enough and the kilesa (defilements) are so powerful, the latter are bound to follow again. ... K: >Arahantship can happen anytime for eg one of them become > arahant while visiting a barber. However at times it is ridiculous > to think that all activities as satipatthana because unwholesome > activities conditioned a pondering the mind tending to akusala. .... S: Definitely akusala leads to more akusala. No doubt. This is the meaning of accumulation. However, the wise reflecting, considering and understanding at other times, like now, can also condition satipatthana to arise at times we would have considered unlikely. No need to think about a special situation or circumstance, otherwise it’s just thinking of a concept, of a story again and indicates a lack of confidence in satipatthana. Like I mentioned, from the first moment of drowsy waking to the last moment of falling asleep, there are opportunities for satipatthana. Even if we half-wake up or do something bad, the realities are just as ‘real’. You mentioned that you liked the nice account Vince gave of how A.Sujin was so composed all the way to the airport when they were running so late for a flight (unlike a time when I was visibly flustered when the same thing happened to us in his car;-)). However, when this tale was once reported in front of her, she shook her head and suggested this wasn’t the point. The point is whether there is any satipatthana arising regardless of whether one is composed or flustered or observing others’ composure. It always comes back to understanding the cittas. ... K: >I > think we should project an objective way viewpoint and not one > slanting that we can do whatever we like as long as there is > satipatthana - bc there will be situtation it is not possible for > satipatthana. .... S: If we understood satipatthana to mean that ‘we can do whatever we like’ or that it doesn’t matter whether we’re performing ‘good’ or ‘harm’, then this would be wrong view. However, the Buddha never suggested there was any situation when it was impossible for satipatthana to arise and develop. Even if we’re very sick or becoming senile, there are still opportunities for satipatthana. We read in the texts about men who had just become drunk or committed suicide, like Godhika in Marasamyutta, but who became arahants in the last few moments of life. We’ve been discussing Anathapindika a lot here,approaching the Buddha with the most evil of intentions. There are so many examples. .... > > S: It’s conditioned already like that and like everything else in > > our lives. Given the conditions at that time, it can’t be any other > > way. > > k: that is a lame excuse. Conditions will arise we are know, does > that mean we let it go all the way. .... S: Is there a choice? Doesn’t it depend on whether wise or unwise attention and other wholesome/unwholesome states arise? .... K: >Zealous arise when considering > of dhamma arise. dont be fooled by conditions. .... S: Yes, in this case, conditions for wholesome factors including wholesome chanda (zeal). When you say ‘don’t be fooled by conditions’, it sounds like an idea of ‘self’ sneaking back in. .... > k: that does not mean zeal can dont arise, read more dhammas, > consider them more. When one ponders over kusala, one tend to it. .... S: Agreed. By conditions and without expectations. It doesn’t mean the latent tendencies accumulated over aeons will not condition akusala at any moment, even whilst pondering and reading about dhammas. Like now - kusala or akusala? Metta or aversion? Sati or ignorance? Seeing or hearing? What’s gone is gone. The kusala and akusala performed in the past has gone never to return. But right now, the cittas, cetasikas and rupas can be known, one at a time.....no matter how they are conditioned. KenO, these would all be good topics to discuss together in Bkk if you’re able to join us again. We mentioned to A.Sujin that you might be able to return and she was glad to hear this too. I greatly appreciate all your reflections here and in the other nice post you wrote me after I gave the account of the bones. Please don’t underestimate the possibilities for satipatthana to arise. Definitely it will grow now you have a good theoretical understanding of dhammas. Maybe Mike or KenH or Sukin or someone else can add more. Metta, Sarah “Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up.” Anguttara Nikaya 10:121 ======= 31106 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > All excellent stuff again, I think. So much corruption of Dhamma--in > the > modern west, at least--has come simply from misunderstanding of mettaa > and > karu.naa and even upekkhaa. Without knowing the characteristics of > these > it's so easy to make cults of these and mistake them for the goal--so it > seems to me, anyway... .... S:I don't wish to discourage you from chipping in with brief comments which I greatly appeciate, but would you car to elaborate further on what you mean by the misunderstanding and understanding of mettaa etc. I think it would be helpful for all of us....Just a little more detail, please. Metta, Sarah ====== 31107 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aspects_of_Speech-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.10 Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > This sutta puts forward the point that we can think we are good > people, everyone else can think we are good people, but the > defilements lay hiding waiting for an opportunity to arise. A person > can seem even-tempered, calm and gentle until a particular situtation > occurs i.e. the right buttons are pushed, and anger and hatred > erupt. > The story of Lady Vedehika, the five aspects of speech, and the > simile of the saw are great reminders to us all not to assume that > progress towards equanimity is irreversible. .... Yes, this story of Lady Vedehika and Kali has always been a favourite of mine and one I've always reflected on a lot. I think this is also the point about not knowing from outer appearances or certain circumstances. We all have our 'right buttons'. A good antidote for any conceit too when we know that any state can be conditioned whilst there are still the latent tendencies:-) I hadn't realised it was on line. Thanks for that. Metta, Sarah ===== 31108 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 3:31am Subject: Re: New Member dear D. Kolleret > > I am deeply committed to Buddhism after traveling > from no religion to Roman Catholicism to the Sufis > to the Hindus. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Very interesting. I am Roman Catholic from childhood: all activities you can imagine, except Priesthood. This gave me free entry to many other philosophical and Mystic systems - Yoga, Zen and presently Theravada Buddhism ( the REAL and DEFINITIVE Buddhism for all seasons) and Sufi. In my spare time I study Pali Language, Hebrew and Arabic (only for reading texts! it´s necessary years and years of continuing practise to tame out any foreign language!)...but my favourite groups on Yahho are the DSG, Pali and the Naqsbandi Sufi. Sufi traditions are sound and reliable for all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It was the mystics who attracted me. > A Theravadin monk I met accidentally introduced me > to Buddhism and gave me books to study. He was > my biggest inspiration. He was everything he preached. > > Buddhist practice is now the center of my life, though I > also publish a magazine and provide spiritual and > other help to prisoners. I bring mindfulness to my work > as much as possible because I don't want to be far > from practice. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Could you tell us more about your magazine ? Are there internet websites about it,links, etc ? -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am here because Htoo Naing posted this link to our > Buddhist Wellness Group. He has posted helpful > Buddhist guides that I have followed as closely as > possible. As I said, I consider myself a learner. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo is GREAT! Only Nina van Gorkon or perhaps Jon and Sarah can match his "virtuoso" skills on Buddhistic theravada doctrine! welcome, Doret! Mettaya, Ícaro 31109 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah > S: If we understood satipatthana to mean that ‘we can do whatever > we like’ or that it doesn’t matter whether we’re performing ‘good’ or ‘harm’, then this would be wrong view. However, the Buddha never suggested there was any situation when it was impossible for satipatthana to arise and develop. k: But Buddha do say in some situation it is impossible for satipatthana to arise. As I say, lets be objective, we encourage others to be natural, not to live holy which in fact a false sense of self, but we have to encourage others to avoid aksuala actions because it can condition akusala cittas. Encourage others to avoid akusala does not pertain to one should be purposedly living holy, it encourges how to consider dhamma more as condition arise. S: Even if we’re very sick or becoming senile, there are > still opportunities for satipatthana. We read in the texts about men who had just become drunk or committed suicide, like Godhika in > Marasamyutta, but who became arahants in the last few moments of life. We’ve been discussing Anathapindika a lot here,approaching the Buddha with the most evil of intentions. There are so many examples. > .... k: These are exceptions. Have you seen other examples of monks before the blade end their life become Arahant. Buddha dont condone such actions so let not encourage others to do likewise just because we say we should be natural and others get a false impression and do what they like. Certain actions are no-no. Have you seen Buddha tell his monks let get drunk and hoping conditions will arise to be an Arahant ;-). .... > S: Is there a choice? Doesn’t it depend on whether wise or unwise > attention and other wholesome/unwholesome states arise? > .... k: Yes not mince words like choice or no choice and you know I know it. We have to be careful about attention because wise attentions conditioned too much by naturally thinking and letting it go, akusala will arise. Wise attention cannot be attained without considering dhammas. Wise attention is furthered condition by wise actions, speech etc, it is a cycle. I not suggesting we should burn our candle lights and be vigilant. > .... > S: Yes, in this case, conditions for wholesome factors including > wholesome chanda (zeal). When you say ‘don’t be fooled by conditions’, it sounds like an idea of ‘self’ sneaking back in. > .... k: I think you are so scare of self sneaking in, is it a self that is scare of self :-). That is part of the explanation of lets not be fooled by condition. Let not be fooled by conditions is to me, just because all are conditions, we should be laze around and say: "so be it". When conditions arise, it should be known because accumulations and tendecy are powerful. When conditions arise, it should be known as kusala and akusala. If it is akusala, abandon it by wise attention or consider dhamma. When it is abandon then tendency for akusala actions may not arise. We should be vigilant in that sense. S: KenO, these would all be good topics to discuss together in Bkk if > you’re able to join us again. We mentioned to A.Sujin that you might be able to return and she was glad to hear this too k: She is always glad that people come and learn dhamma. I am just namas and rupas ;-). Tell her that I am starting to listen internally and externally - she will understand what I mean ;-). S: > Please don’t underestimate the possibilities for satipatthana to > arise. k: I never under estimate satipatthana but I also never under estimate tendency and accumulations. Ken O 31110 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:59am Subject: The Bird Nests. Hello to all & esp Christine, When I read this, I thought immediately of you, Chris and I must admit also of J.R.R. Tolkein. I imagined these battles going on between the Devas and Asuras were pretty far out 'skirmishs' - maybe J.R.R. had read the suttas and got his fantastical ideas from them!!! 'At Savatthi, "Bhikkhus, once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. In that battle the asuras won and the devas were defeated. In defeat the devas withdrew towards the north while the asuras pursued them. Then Sakka, lord of the devas, addressed his charioteer Matali in verse: 'Avoid, O Matali, with your chariot pole The bird nests in the silk-cotton woods; Let's surrender our lives to the asuras Rather than make these birds nestless.' [621] "yes, your lordship," Matali the charioteer replied, and he turned back the chariot with its team of a thousand thoroughbreds. Then, Bhikkhus, it occurred to the asuras: 'Now Sakka's chariot with its team of a thousand thoroughbreds has turned back. The devas will engage in battle with the asuras for a second time.' Stricken by fear, they entered the city of the asuras. In this way, bhikkus, Sakka, lord of the devas, won a victory by means of righteousness itself.' [621] Spk: as they headed towards the silk-cotton woods, the noise of the chariot, the horses, and the standard was like thunderbolts on all sides. The strong supanna birds in the forest fled, but those that were old, ill and too young to fly were terrified and let loose a loud cry. Sakka asked, 'what is that sound?' and Matali told him. Sakka's heart was shaken by compassion and he spoke the verse. While I was typing this, a huge praying/preying mantis landed right beside my keyboard and appeared to be watching me, so I read the story to it and then it flew away. I do enjoy events like this!!! It's a long way to Nibbana, its a long way to go. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 31111 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I believe that A. Sujin is partly correct here. The Buddha > did naturally abide in fruition consciousness, but he would also > abide in deep mental absorption to rid the mind of physical pain. > This was something that he taught all of his noble disciples to do. > I will be quoting from two sections of MN 36 "The Greater Discourse > to Saccaka", and some commentary notes, to illustrate: ... S: Thankyou very much for posting this sutta and the commentary notes. Plenty more for me to consider and understand just a little theoretically. I may come back to it later if I have anything to add. .... > James: Hope this sheds some light on the matter. Sarah, I have > picked a sutta from the "Brahmasamyutta" that I want to present but > it is very long and has many important considerations to different > sections (10 "Kokalika"). I am still pondering how I want to > present it and what I think is important. In other words, I haven't > forgotten my assignment! ;-)) Just still working on it. .... I'll look forward to it - an excellent choice with a very sobering message. Take your time, James. I'm sure it will be beneficial for all of us. Metta, Sarah ======= 31112 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:21am Subject: Bangkok - Shakti Dear Shakti, Hi, sorry to take so long to answer you. Sounds like a great idea. I arrive in Bkk on Apl 14 in the morning, so I'll be able to catch up with you for sure. I think Chris will be in T/land too. I'll write you off-line for more chat. The others usually meet at the Foundation at 2pm, each Sat.except for the first Sat of each month. If I'm wrong about this, someone will surely correct me. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Hi Azita and others, > > I have been away from the computer for months now, due to carpal tunnel and other family issues. So many good posts I'm not sure where to pick up. Thanks to everyone for sharing. > > Azita, I was happy to hear that you would be in Bangkok in April. I'll be in Thailand March 15th thru April 15th. Perhaps we can meet in Bangkok on the 14th or 15th. I'll be staying in the Holiday Inn on Silom Road as usual. What do you think? > > Will folks be meeting at the Foundation on March 20th? What time? > > With metta, Shakti > > > 31113 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi, Larry (and Icaro) - In a message dated 3/8/04 11:41:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and Icaro, > > U Rewata Dhamma has this note on "non-concretely produced matter" in CMA > p. 241: > > "The types of matter in groups (8) - (11) are designated non-concretely > produced matter (anipphannaruupa) because they do not arise directly > from the four main causes of matter but exist as modalities or > attributes of concretely produced matter. Thus they are not included > among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay. Well, being "non-concretely produced" is certainly different from being "non-real". What does the Abhidhamma, itself, say? Is it the same as the CMA, namely "non-concretely produced"? Also, you say that the note excludes them from the paramattha dhammas. If that is so, that just leaves pa~n~natti (which is what I originally contended with regard to space, for example!). ------------------------------------------------------ > > [8 - 11 = space element, 2 intimations, lightness, malleability, > weildiness, production of matter, continuity of matter, decay, > impermanence] > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly "things" like impermanence, production, and decay are pa~n~natti! They are conceptually imputed on sequences of directly apprehended phenomena, and some, like decay, require identification of distinct phenomena over time. To be impermanent, for example, is merely to not remain. A phenomenon appears, and later that phenomenon is not present - and we *say* that the phenomenon had the feature of impermanence. But the actuality is merely that it was, but currently it is not. Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute distinction is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes. Try to distinguish, for example, between happiness being a mental condition and being a mental attribute. Also, for that matter, why is not hardness just as much of a "modality" or "attribute" as lightness? As I see it, none of this holds together. --------------------------------------------------- > > The basic 8 inseparables Nina referred to are earth, water, fire, air, > color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. All rupa is produced in > inseparable groups. There is no space between smell and taste. But there > is space between clusters of inseparable groups. It seems to me all > these clusters have conventional names like hand, foot, mouth, bread, > bicycle. > > Sense organs separate the inseparables. Smell is cognized separately > from taste. Can we say in the cognitive series rupa is delimited by > impermanence? > > Larry > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31114 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi, James - In a message dated 3/9/04 1:08:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, James (and Sarah) - > James, I don't see why the opposite of the commentarial > interpretation couldn't be just as plausible: Pleasant feeling > doesn't enter the mind because it is as nothing compared to jhanic > joy or jhanic equanimity, and unpleasant feeling doesn't enter the > mind because of insight into impermanence, impersonality, > insubstantiality etc. For that matter, why couldn't insight be the > answer to both! Also, the terminology of "the body being developed" > is a strange one regardless of how it is interpreted. So I feel that > nothing very definitive has been revealed here. These commentarial > notes are unpersuasive to me. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Okay, you don't have to believe it or anything. I was just offering > the information for your perusal. Honestly, when I first read this > information I was somewhat taken aback myself, but then I considered > deeply why. I realized that I was taken aback because the > information didn't fit in with my preconceived notions of what a > Buddha's and/or an Arahant's mind is like. So, rather than argue > with the commentary or try to find flaws in it, I realized that I > don't really know what the Buddha's mind was like. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I'm with you on that! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- > > I don't agree with all commentary notes but when you read the entire > conversation in this sutta, what the Buddha was explaining, the > commentary notes are pretty solid. They fit the context perfectly > of what the Buddha was saying. Have you read the whole sutta? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I only read what you quoted. ----------------------------------------------- I > > also don't understand why you don't like the terminology of `the > body being developed' and characterize it as `strange'. You don't > have a choice in the matter! LOL! That is what the Buddha said. > Rather than just dismiss it as `strange' you should try to > understand what he meant. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The question is of the English wording. What does having a developed body have to do with not reacting with lust and pleasure to pleasant feeling? Having a developed *mind* with respect to material sensations *would* be relevant. The English phrase "having a developed body" would pertain to such things as physical strength, dexterity, etc. I certainly maintain that the phrase is odd in this context. Now it may well be so that the commentary is correct in relating this to having insight - that would make sense, but that would just show that the phrase "having a developed body" does not mean what it seems to mean on the face of it, which makes it "odd". Moreover, insight should be just as forestalling of reaction to unpleasant sensations as to pleasant ones. Thus I find this matter all most unclear. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Look at this subject a different way: You believe that the Buddha > should have been able to eliminate pain with insight; could the > Buddha also eliminate sickness with insight? (Don't ask Deepak > Chopra that question! LOL!). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no certainty as to what the Buddha could or could not eliminate in general. I suspect that he could *not* eliminate pain (unpleasant physical feeling). But he would be free of aversion to that pain. If he were not free of aversion (to pain or anything else) he would not be an arahant, as I understand being an arahant. I do see as plausible the Buddha's entering absorptive states to "recharge his energy," because physical pain, while not causing aversion in the Buddha, would still be physically and mentally debilitating, but I do not entering absorptive states as plausible for the purpose of emotional escape in the case of an arahant. ------------------------------------------------ Aren't there certain things that are > > just intrinsic to the human body that cannot be eliminated with > insight? Just consider that. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't need to consider it. I expect that it is quite so. ---------------------------------------------- The Buddha didn't have any pain > > medication so he would enter mental absorption to keep the > tranquility of his mind in the face of extreme pain. Makes perfect > sense to me and doesn't reveal any weakness or dosa. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what that would reveal, but I think it is a matter of some importance. ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31115 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/9/04 3:23:37 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: S:>.....as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is > essential > for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right > understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. ... Jack: > I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper understanding of an object is necessary before one does samadhi/vipassana meditation? ..... S: Yes, I think that when there is right understanding of how an object of samatha conditions calm and other wholesome states at this moment or when there is right understanding of a nama or rupa, then there are conditions for samatha and vipassana to develop without requiring any idea of ‘doing’ anything. To give a simple example for both: [snip] S: By reflecting and understanding the quality of metta and developing it when there are opportunities, like now as we speak to each other but without any attachment or wishing to be ‘the person with metta’, there can be conditions for the development of calm with metta as object. Without a clearer and clearer understanding of the quality of metta, it cannot be developed or known. Sarah, My experience is that following instructions in a metta meditation such as, "Think of a loved one. Get in touch with that feeling. May they be at peace...." is how one learns about metta. One can only learn this experientially. Are you saying one has to understand metta conceptually before one can experience it? >b) Sound as an object of vipassana. Likewise, vipassana(insight) or satipatthana cannot be developed without a clearer and clearer understanding of the objects to be known as they appear at this moment. So now, there are many sense door and mind door processes, but are any namas or rupas understood? We think we hear the sounds of birds, or fans or clicking of the keyboard but this is an illusion of subjectivity I think Howard would say;-) In reality, there are just different experiences of hearing, seeing, smelling and so on and the objects, the rupas, which are heard, seen and so on. Because the sense experiences are immediately followed by thinking and other mind-door activity, we’re left with the illusion of hearing the key-board and a ‘self’ that does this hearing. Therefore, whether we sit on a cusion or read a book or go for a hike, it is the clear understanding which will be the main factor in the development of satipatthana as I understand, rather than the cushion or book or hill.< Again, I'm not sure what you mean by understand. To me, one learns that which you mention above by observing closely. Instructions such as, observe the difference between rupa and nama, are useful but not necessary. If you look carefully you could discover this by yourself without this instruction. I think you would disagree, right? .... Jack: > I also am not sure what you mean by proper understanding of an object. If one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what > does one have to understand about it before using it in mental development? .... S: A very good and difficult question;-) It is the right attention and other 'rights' rather than the breath which will make the difference. Just concentrating on breath or any other object in itself, will not make the consciousness wholesome. Why should it? If I was a scientist and trying to find a cure for cancer, I would spend a lot of time observing how cancer operates and how different potential cures affect it. When I meditate, I spend a lot of time seeing how the physical sensation of my breath affects my mental processes, how the physical and mental aspects of each breath are selfless, not ultimately pleasant and temporary, etc. Observing the breath alone can let me know/experience the presence of suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and paths to alleviate suffering. A scientist just looking into a microscope without trying to really see what is happening is not going to do anyone any good. My looking at my breath during meditation without trying to see what is happening is also not doing me any good. I still don't understand you answer to my question of > If one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what does one have to understand about it before using it in mental development?< ....>At a most elementary level, I find it useful to reflect on how life and all we hold dear and important depends on this very in and out-breath. Without breath there’d be no life at all. Even a little wise reflection like this can be a condition for calm. However, I don’t believe it’s given as an object that can easily condition calm with wise reflection in daily life at all, unlike metta, death or the qualities of the Buddha, for example, which are easier to understand, I think. < 31116 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi, Jack and Sarah - In a message dated 3/9/04 11:31:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > > In a message dated 3/9/04 3:23:37 AM Central Standard Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S:>.....as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is > >essential > >for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right > >understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. > ... > Jack: >I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper > understanding of an object is necessary before one does samadhi/vipassana > meditation? > ..... > S: Yes, I think that when there is right understanding of how an object of > samatha conditions calm and other wholesome states at this moment or when > there is right understanding of a nama or rupa, then there are conditions > for samatha and vipassana to develop without requiring any idea of ‘doing’ > anything. > > To give a simple example for both: > > [snip] > S: By reflecting and understanding the quality of metta and developing it > when there are opportunities, like now as we speak to each other but > without any attachment or wishing to be ‘the person with metta’, there can > be conditions for the development of calm with metta as object. Without a > clearer and clearer understanding of the quality of metta, it cannot be > developed or known. > > Sarah, > > My experience is that following instructions in a metta meditation such as, > "Think of a loved one. Get in touch with that feeling. May they be at > peace...." is how one learns about metta. One can only learn this > experientially. Are > you saying one has to understand metta conceptually before one can > experience > it? > ============================= I think that knowing in advance what to look for is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it may enliven the attention and make it less likely to miss important events and connections. On the other hand, one often tends to *seem* to see what one expects to see, and the danger of substituting conceptual knowledge, belief, and imagined phenomena for actual experience is a real one. It seem to me that if one follows prescribed behavior (prescribed by the Buddha), and examines whatever arises with calm, non-reactive, non-selective, and intent attention, then what is actual will, in varying degrees, as conditions determine, appear and be directly known. And the more regular and the more correct the practice of mindful, non-reactive attention is carried out, the more responsive the mind will become. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31117 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/9/04 11:12:40 AM Central Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I think that knowing in advance what to look for is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it may enliven the attention and make it less likely to miss important events and connections. On the other hand, one often tends to *seem* to see what one expects to see, and the danger of substituting conceptual knowledge, belief, and imagined phenomena for actual experience is a real one. It seem to me that if one follows prescribed behavior (prescribed by the Buddha), and examines whatever arises with calm, non-reactive, non-selective, and intent attention, then what is actual will, in varying degrees, as conditions determine, appear and be directly known. And the more regular and the more correct the practice of mindful, non-reactive attention is carried out, the more responsive the mind will become. Howard, You said what I meant much better than I did. I notice that happens a lot. I especially liked your reference to prescribed behavior. jack 31118 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 9:35am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 08 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has been sitting in meditation. As he is well calm, he can see all dhamma that arise at the very present and he sees clearly their passing away. He has made an effort while he is doing meditation. He knows that effort or viriya arises and it persists and it falls away. He is cultivating dhamma and he is doing bhavana that is cultivation of kusala or good deed. He knows that cetana or volition arises and it persists and it falls away. He is meditating. He is doing breathing meditation. As he is well calm, he can see that a contact arises while he knows that object of meditation. He knows the persistence of contact and he also cognizes it falls away. While he is well concentrated he notices his status that he is well concentrated. He realizes that there arise a concentration or ekaggata. While it persists he knows that it persists. And when it falls away he notices that it passes away. When he is sitting he sees clearly that his mind exists. He knows that existence arises and its persistence. It is mental life or jivitindriya. When it falls away he notes that it passes away. While he is doing meditation he recognizes that he is attending at his nostril. Actually he is not controlling anything but attention or manasikara arises. When attention persists he knows that it persists and when it passes away he recognizes its disappearence. He is doing breathing meditation. He knows it touches. Touch falls away. He konws it touches. The touch falls away. He knows it touches. The touch passes away. And again he knows it touches and it falls away. He knows each arising citta is accompanied by initial application or vitakka. Vitakka is making consciousness at touch here in breathing meditation. That initial application arises, persists, and falls away. He knows all the way round. He is doing breathing meditation and he is repeatedly attending at nostril and he would go no where but at nostril. It touches, it falls away. It touches and it falls away. Consciousness is being accompanied by that sustained application or vicara. Vicara arises, persists, and falls away. He is well calm and he feel he is well suffused. He has an interest at the object of meditation that is at nostril. As he is calm he feels joy and that joy persists momentarily and later becomes flood of joy and thrilling happen and his whole body is suffused with joy. He knows that joy or piti arises, persists, and falls away. He has been meditating because he just wish to calm down. At each moment his wish makes him to continue to meditate. he knows that wish or chanda arises, it persists and it falls away. He is well determined in his practice and now doing his meditation. At each moment he sees that determination arises and it immediately passes away after persisting for a while. This determination or adhimokkha just arises, persists, and falls away. He notices that he is quite confident while practising and notices that saddha arises, persists, and passes away. He is very mindful and he would not depart from his object of meditation. He recognizes that mindfulness or sati arises, persists, and falls away. He has been meditating. he is ashame of to be frequently distracted and deconcentrated so he well builds up concentration. he does not do any akusala even in his mind. He knows that shame or hirika arises, persists, and falls away. He is afraid to be contaminated with akusala thought while he is doing breathing meditation. He realizes that fear or ottappa arises, persists, and falls away. He also knows that he has been in a mind state of unhurting in nature. He recognizes that adosa ( metta ) arises, persists, and falls away. at the same time he also notices that there is no greediness instead there is alobha and it arises, persists, and falls away. As he is well calm and well concentrated he well notices that his mind is well balanced and he cognizes that there arises a balancing mind or tatramajjhattata, it persists, and falls away. While he is meditating he also notices that there arise tranquilities both of mind and all mental factors ( cittapassaddhi and kayapassaddhi )and he sees that all are working effectively as they all are well calm and tranquilized. He recognizes that consciousness and all mind conditions become lighter and lighter as he is calmer and calmer. He recognizes that lightness of both mind and mental factors ( cittalahuta and kayalahuta ) arise, persist, and fall away. At the very same time, he also notices that mind and all mental factors become soft, tender, plastic and notes that plasticity of both mind and mental factors ( cittamuduta and kayamuduta ) arise, persist, and fall away. There are also familiarity of mind and mental factors to the object ( cittapagunnata and kayapagunnata ). He notices that they arise, persist and fall away. There also are workability or adaptability of mind and mental factors ( cittakammannata and kayakammannata ). He recognizes they arise, persist, and fall away. As he is well calm all his mind and mental factors are straight forward and they are upright. He recognizes that rectitude of both mind and mental facots ( cittujukata and kayujukata ) arise, persist, and fall away. He recognizes that these mind conditioners or mental factors arise, persist and fall away. They condition the mind and they are not him or they are not his. There is no trace of self or atta in them. All these are just sankhara and they are just aggregate called clinging aggregate of fabrications or sankharupadanakkhandha. He knows when they arise, persist and fall away. They are not him or his and there is no trace of him in them. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. May you all see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31119 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Eznir, That is a very good one. See below. op 08-03-2004 08:39 schreef Eznir op eznir2003@y...: > I consider every person I meet a dhamma teacher to me. Specially > those who provoke the negative kinds of feelings you state above. > They seem to say "Look, I've aroused these states of anger in you! > You have not taken what is heard as only the heard". The same can be > said about positive feelings too. N: This made me think of my father who grumbles and complains on account of what is in his imagination. As I mentioned here already, a friend spoke about her father who was actually , always disparaging. But her mother said: your father is your teacher, do not forget. And can you ad about positive feelings? You mean clinging? I remember now a sutta: lobha is our teacher, we always follow what achariya says. Or: it is one's coresident pupil, it always follows us, wherever we go. We need more examples from daily life, Dhamma is not theory. On another list I had made an interpretation of a Pali text which was approved of. I was mighty pleased, but I could not help laughing at my conceit and lobha. In mockery I patted my back. I know, also laughing is lobha. Because of listening one can notice it. Formerly I would not even know about it. But this is interesting: see how piti (joy, enthusiasm or zest) and somanassa (pleasant feeling) surge up so strongly and even before we realize it. Uncontrollably. But I have to use this term carefully. I know, sati and panna can do their work. As Rob K wrote: < as an object of insight any moment is perfect because each moment is conditioned to be that way.> I heard on tape that dosa can harm others, it is more harmful, and that lobha may not be so harmful to others but harder to eradicate. I could not trace the sutta. Nina. 31120 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not too much Hi Larry, op 09-03-2004 02:11 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I want to go all the way to the end of Visuddhimagga. I'm sure Jim will > be back in the spring. N: Good! Ten years or so? No problem. I have contact with Jim all the time. He has his own pali study list, for subtle points. About grammar, syntaxis. Nina. 31121 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space, separates what? Hi Larry, op 09-03-2004 05:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > U Rewata Dhamma has this note on "non-concretely produced matter" in CMA > p. 241: > > "The types of matter in groups (8) - (11) are designated non-concretely > produced matter (anipphannaruupa) because they do not arise directly > from the four main causes of matter but exist as modalities or > attributes of concretely produced matter. Thus they are not included > among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." N: I do not agree with the last sentence: they are included among paramattha dhammas, see previous mail. L: The basic 8 inseparables Nina referred to are earth, water, fire, air, > color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. All rupa is produced in > inseparable groups. There is no space between smell and taste. But there > is space between clusters of inseparable groups. It seems to me all > these clusters have conventional names like hand, foot, mouth, bread, > bicycle. N: Your last sentence: the clusters or groups are extremely small. What you call hand is constituted by innumerable groups or clusters arising and falling away. As I see it, clusters do not have conventional names such as hand, etc. L: Sense organs separate the inseparables. Smell is cognized separately > from taste. N: When we speak of one group comprising smell, taste and other rupas, only one of them can be experienced through the relevant doorway and that does not mean that there is any separation of the rupas of one group that accompany the rupa which is actually experienced. It could not be, because they all have a function, as foundation, as cohesion (holding together), etc. L: Can we say in the cognitive series rupa is delimited by > impermanence? N: No. It arises and falls away, but it lasts as long as 17 moments of citta so that it can be experienced by a series of cittas arising in a process. Nina. 31122 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, concept or reality? Types of objects. Hi Howard and Michael (at end, something meaty), op 09-03-2004 04:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> > In a message dated 3/8/04 9:21:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, > icarofranca@y... writes: > >> Space - akasa - is classified as a "non-real" Paramattha Dhamma >> ========================== > And what, pray tell, is that? (Besides being a contradiction in terms! > ;-) N: Howard, I think that I understand what Icaro says. He means: it is not concrete matter. But nevertheless Paramattha Dhamma. See my mails to Larry where I quoted suttas. You may still find it difficult to see space as paramattha dhamma, I understand. We spoke about this in Bgk. It can be known by insight, but not everyone will know all rupas. When we consider the seven rupas that appear all the time in daily life through the senses, we can have some beginning understanding of what rupa is: that which is a reality that does not experience anything. Apart from thinking of object and subject, can hardness be experienced without having to call it anything? That is a beginning. When we can develop direct understanding of rupa, it will also be clearer what subtle rupas are. I do not know whether this is of any help. There is also space as a meditation subject of samatha, a nimitta. This is another type of object. Now the meaty part. There are different types of objects: objects that are 1. paritta, trifling or insignificant, objects that are not those of jhana or of lokuttara citta. 2. objects of jhana (mahaggata).3. object that is appanaa, attainment, nibbana for lokuttara citta. Then there is one class that is not among these three: called: or (navattabbarammana). Among these is the nimitta experienced by the citta developing samatha. And also when a citta with panna but not lokuttara citta experiences nibbana, this object is also a not so classifiable object in that case. This happens shortly before lokuttara cittas arise. Or afterwards, in reviewing nibbana. Then nibbana is not an attainment object. We discussed in Bgk subtle points and this taught me to be very careful with the word concept. There is much more to it. We also discussed past objects, which are not concepts but dhammas. The dhamma of the past can also be a not so classifiable object. Rebirth-consciousness can have past, present or not so classifiable object. We also have to remember that concept can be a term denoting a paramattha dhamma. Thus, when saying: there are just paramattha dhammas or concepts we have to be careful. We have to differentiate more. We went over texts of Dhammasangani, Vis. and Expositor. The English transl Dhsgn. omits these parts. It omits too many things. Rhys Davids may not have understood certain texts. Michael, please, do not go, we shall miss you. Nina. 31123 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space and suttas Hi Larry, op 09-03-2004 03:03 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I was wondering in what sense space is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not > self. Is it so because space is actually 'edge', a characteristic of > matter? N: Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up with concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups originated by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned as originated by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It is also called an element, dhatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425). And the Co to the Abh. Sangaha states:, meaning, it is not a living being. The Vis. gives the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in the case of all 28 rupas. It is rupa, thus, it has the three characteristics. And see below, the suttas. L: There is a slight discrepancy between the PTS (?) translation from MN 140 Nina gave and B. ~Nanamoli's: PTS: "And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the mouth..." ~N: "What is the internal space element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is space, spatial, and clung-to, that is, the holes of the ears, the nostrils, the door of the mouth..." L: The first one has "derived therefrom" and the second one has "clung-to". N: It is said: , or, clung to (upadi.n.na): namely, produced by kamma, but in a wider sense referring to all rupas of the body. These two, derived from an individual, or, clung to, amount to the same. They are called internal and individual. N: B.B. has: At the end of this definition we read: Would this be said of a concept? It is rupa, an element, not a concept. Going to the Pali of Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: ajjhattika: internal, paccatta.m, belonging to oneself, but used figuratively of course. See the end: they should be realized as non-self. Thus, as rupa, having the three characteristics. "And what, Rahula, is the space element? The space element may be internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal space element? That, internally, and individually, is space, void, and clung to, namely: the cavity of the ear, the orifice of the nose, the opening of the mouth, and whereby (one) swallows what is tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten, and where (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten remains, and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten passes out of the body lower down, or whatever else internally, and individually is space, void, sky, empty, an opening, hollow, untouched by flesh and blood, and clung to. This, Rahula, is called the internal space element. But that very internal space element and that external space element are simply space element. Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right wisdom just as it is, the mind becomes dispassionate towards (and) detaches (itself) from the space element." Nina. 31124 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 9:48am Subject: Engaged Buddhism Dear Friends, So far I have observed that engaged Buddhism is practiced only by some Zen Buddhists. I have been told that Buddha did not advise actually entering the social struggle, e.g. against the death penalty, against war, etc. Is it true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because they focus their attention only inward on liberation? With metta, Doret 31125 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member On 3/8/04 10:35 PM, "Sarah" wrote: Dear Sarah, > >> A Theravadin monk I met accidentally introduced me >> to Buddhism and gave me books to study. He was >> my biggest inspiration. He was everything he preached. > .... > S: This is very interesting. May I ask who the monk was and where you met > him? I live in a California redwood forest, USA. There is no home mail delivery so I go to the post office every day. One day I walked into the entry way and there was a Buddhist monk waiting for his mail. I had been looking for spiritual help for the 500 prisoners who also receive my magazine. I thought I would ask him.. It turned out he had gone into prisons in Southeast Asia to teach meditation practice. I gave him a magazine and showed him the Moslem, Hindu, and Jewish help offered, but no Buddhism. He lived in a small hut in the forest near my house and had access to a computer. Soon he sent me a meditation practice that prisoners could write for. (I have sent several hundred since then). His name is Ven. Chutiko. He and Ven. Mongkone (who was once his student) have now established a temple in Massachusetts where there is a Cambodian settlement. They also have a wondrous website called the Great Wisdom Center that you might want to explore (http://www.greatwisdomcenter.org). Thank you for the welcome and the road signs. With metta, Doret 31126 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hello Betty, I thought I would just throw in a small interjection on your comment on Abhidhamma. Your story of these monks sounds very nice. I am sure these monks are very advanced if they have found, as I have a simple house holder in the ghetto, that jhana is required for insight. The deeper the jhana the more and clearer the insight. So, it is doubtful that monks of this caliber cannot understand Abhidhamma. They may feel the same way about Abhidhamma that I do, which is Abhidhamma seems like the Marvel Comic Books version of the Sutta Pitaka. Why bother with sensational stories of gods and secret teachings? The historic Buddha said he did not leave anything out, and he gave no secret teaching. In 30 years of meditation, study and reflection, I have found no reason to believe otherwise. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four jhanas slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." In a message dated 3/8/04 12:17:46 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << In addition, I think you are correct in asserting that the Abhidhamma is not studied. In fact, most monks shy away from it because they don't understand it (my apologies to any monks on the list who do indeed study Abhidhamma). Years ago, when I had gotten a copy of Nina's ADL, and showed it to monks at Wat Bavorn (this was a few years before my son was born; he is now 30), they actually dissuaded me from reading it! >> 31127 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism In a message dated 3/9/04 12:54:00 PM Central Standard Time, doretk@s... writes: Is it true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because they focus their attention only inward on liberation? Doret, No. Suggest you go to http://www.liberationpark.org/ , follow the link to Peace and another link to www.bpf.com. jack 31128 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: The Bird Nests. Hello Azita, all, I hadn't read this sutta before - thank you! :-) A thousand horse- power chariot!! I've heard that Sakka's fuel bills were horrendous .... and rumour tells us of lots of problems with the 'exhaust' systems :-) I think it is 'praying' mantis - from the posture they take while considering who their next victim will be :-) .. lucky you were bigger. In case anyone is looking for this sutta, the reference is: Samyutta Nikaya I The Book with Verses (Sagaathaavagga) 11. Sakkasamyutta p. 325 (Bodhi) I have a little trouble with the Ven. Bodhi's use of the word 'righteousness' - wondering what may be an alternative phrase other than 'victory by means of righteousness itself'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Hello to all & esp Christine, > > When I read this, I thought immediately of you, Chris and I must > admit also of J.R.R. Tolkein. I imagined these battles going on > between the Devas and Asuras were pretty far out 'skirmishs' - maybe > J.R.R. had read the suttas and got his fantastical ideas from them!!! > > 'At Savatthi, "Bhikkhus, once in the past the devas and the asuras > were arrayed for battle. In that battle the asuras won and the devas > were defeated. In defeat the devas withdrew towards the north while > the asuras pursued them. Then Sakka, lord of the devas, addressed his > charioteer Matali in verse: > > 'Avoid, O Matali, with your chariot pole > The bird nests in the silk-cotton woods; > Let's surrender our lives to the asuras > Rather than make these birds nestless.' [621] > > "yes, your lordship," Matali the charioteer replied, and he > turned back the chariot with its team of a thousand thoroughbreds. > > Then, Bhikkhus, it occurred to the asuras: 'Now Sakka's > chariot with its team of a thousand thoroughbreds has turned back. > The devas will engage in battle with the asuras for a second time.' > Stricken by fear, they entered the city of the asuras. In this way, > bhikkus, Sakka, lord of the devas, won a victory by means of > righteousness itself.' > > [621] Spk: as they headed towards the silk-cotton woods, the noise > of the chariot, the horses, and the standard was like thunderbolts on > all sides. The strong supanna birds in the forest fled, but those > that were old, ill and too young to fly were terrified and let loose > a loud cry. Sakka asked, 'what is that sound?' and Matali told him. > Sakka's heart was shaken by compassion and he spoke the verse. > > While I was typing this, a huge praying/preying mantis landed > right beside my keyboard and appeared to be watching me, so I read > the story to it and then it flew away. I do enjoy events like this!!! > > It's a long way to Nibbana, its a long way to go. > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 31129 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 11:41am Subject: Abhidhamma/Jeff was (Re: the self. . . how?/Jack) Hello Jeff, Could you expand on this statement a little? Maybe give some us examples in support of it ... Jeff said: "They may feel the same way about Abhidhamma that I do, which is Abhidhamma seems like the Marvel Comic Books version of the Sutta Pitaka. Why bother with sensational stories of gods and secret teachings?" metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: 31130 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member On 3/9/04 3:31 AM, "icarofranca" wrote: Dear Ícaro, > >> >> I am deeply committed to Buddhism after traveling >> from no religion to Roman Catholicism to the Sufis >> to the Hindus. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Very interesting. I am Roman Catholic . . . This gave me free > entry to many other philosophical and Mystic systems - Yoga, Zen and > presently Theravada Buddhism ( the REAL and DEFINITIVE Buddhism for > all seasons) and Sufi. . . . Sufi traditions are sound and reliable for all. I agree that Catholicism can be an introduction to other systems. I started with St. John of the Cross, which prepared me for Hafiz and Rumi in Sufi literature, for the Bhagavad Gita, and for Zen. > > Could you tell us more about your magazine ? Are there internet > websites about it,links, etc ? My quarterly magazine is The Justice Xpress, a low-budget (printed on cheap paper), social-political-environmental publication. It is politically left of center. When it was called The North Coast Xpress, it was on Internet until Fall 2001. A battered remnant is at http://thunder.sonic.net/~doretk/ The Justice Xpress is not online. Prisoners are my main concern and they need a printed publication.. The magazine is in its 12th year, and I don't know what to do. I think of it as a window on the world for prisoners and a window on prisoners for the world. The final 13 pages are written by or for prisoners and offer spiritual, legal and other help. (The current one has an article about a prisoner by a Soto Zen priest.) Six ads offer free Buddhist help, one of them a Karma book. That is the problem. I would like to quit the magazine, but that means sacrificing assistance for prisoners on death rows around the country, for those in solitary confinement, and for those who are tortured in this hidden world. I finally decided that the next issue would be the last one, then had second thoughts. Right now I don't know what to do. (If anyone would like to see a copy and give advice, let me know.) With metta, Doret -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I am here because Htoo Naing posted this link to our >> Buddhist Wellness Group. He has posted helpful >> Buddhist guides that I have followed as closely as >> possible. As I said, I consider myself a learner. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo is GREAT! Only Nina van Gorkon or perhaps Jon and Sarah can > match his "virtuoso" skills on Buddhistic theravada doctrine! > > welcome, Doret! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 31131 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dispelling Common Misconceptions regarding absorption (Jhana) Hello Sarah, Htoo, I read lots of words and posturing however none of it is very convincing. How is it that none of you have resorted to a single quote from the Sutta pitaka as a support for your claims? Dispelling Common Misconceptions regarding absorption (Jhana) Concentration leads to absorption and insight, which leads to cessation. There is no other way. Maha-satipatthana Sutta, DN 22 "And what is right {absorption (sama-samadhi)}? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first absorption (jhana)... (through fourth jhana). Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." Samadhanga Sutta AN V. 28 "He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal." Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four absorptions (jhanas) slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." Jhanasamyutta, SN 34 "Therein, bhikkhus, the meditator who is skilled both in concentration regarding absorption (jhana) and in attainment regarding absorption (jhana) is the chief, the best the foremost, the highest, the most excellent of these four kinds of meditators." What more do you need? Or is it to feel self importance? Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/8/04 12:17:46 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Concentration or jhana or absorption in simple form is not Samma Samadhi... The whole story reveals that Jhana in pure form is useless and even dangerous because there is possibility of rebirth in immaterial abode where there is no chance to see and hear The Live Buddha and His Dhamma. >> 31132 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Hi Doret, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > They also have a wondrous website called the Great Wisdom Center that you > might want to explore (http://www.greatwisdomcenter.org). > > Thank you for the welcome and the road signs. > > With metta, > Doret OH WOW! The pictures on this site of Phra Mangkone with the BlackFoot Indian Nation are priceless!! The dichotomy of the ancient cultures together like that, from separate lands, is very rare indeed! Thank you so much for sharing!!! :-)) Metta, James 31133 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space and suttas Hi Nina, Is there any commentary for space, or should we go on to the lightness triad? Larry 31134 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Abhidhamma/Jeff was (Re: the self. . . how?/Jack) Christine wrote: > Hello Jeff, > > Could you expand on this statement a little? Maybe give some us > examples in support of it ... > > Jeff said: "They may feel the same way about Abhidhamma that I do, > which is Abhidhamma seems like the Marvel Comic Books version of the > Sutta Pitaka. Why bother with sensational stories of gods and secret > teachings?" Hello Jeff, and all. I will add a question to Christine's. I suppose this debate has been going on awhile here, but I don't know why Jeff feels such a compulsion to justify jhanas to people who practice without them, or attack Abdhidhamma to people who appreciate it. Clearly he sees their views as wrong understanding, but hoping to eliminate all the wrong understanding in the world is a hopeless project. It also reminds me of the fuss over "The Last Temptation of Christ" some years back. If people have true faith, why are they so bothered by the depiction of their faith by non-believers? Of course, there is a sincere apsiration that all come to know the benefits of jhanas, but sometimes it doesn't feel that way to me. It feels like dojo yaburi - bursting into another tradtion's dojo (practice place in martial arts) to try to prove that your way is better. As James pointed out, healthy debate does lead to deeper understanding. But where does the point comes when people agree to disagree and let it go at that? If I'm not mistaken, Jeff has a group dedicated to jhanas practice. I don't understand why he need to spam another group in which the founding practice (that of A Sujin) is not in line with jhanas. (I'm quite certain that the msg from Jeff "Common Misunderstandings..." was sent simulataneously to several groups, but if I'm mistaken, my apologies.) I have been wanting to ask this question, and now it's done. I won't keep coming back to it, just as I won't keep coming back to the things I said to James. Story over. (With a quick apology to James and all for the nasty tone I used. That won't happen again.) I'm new here, so still learning about who comes here, and why. Metta, Phil 31135 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Jack, Thank you for referring me to Liberation Park. Now I have actual texts to support engaged Buddhism.. (I could not access the bpf link.) I know these articles can't make decisions for me, but I can add them to the mix when I have to decide. I have been wavering between continuing my magazine and assisting others, on one hand, and leading a more contemplative life, on the other hand. The first is on behalf of others; the second is what I really want to do for myself. Thank you again for the references. Metta, Doret On 3/9/04 11:01 AM, "Jackhat1@a..." wrote: > In a message dated 3/9/04 12:54:00 PM Central Standard Time, doretk@s... > writes: > Is it > true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because > they focus their attention only inward on liberation? > Doret, > > No. > > Suggest you go to http://www.liberationpark.org/ , follow the link to Peace > and another link to www.bpf.com. > > jack > > 31136 From: christhedis Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anyone in Bangkok? Thanks a lot Sarah.. I think Sukin and Betty both emailed me. Really nice. :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Chris, > > --- christhedis wrote: > Hi there everyone, > > > > Wondering if anyone is currently living or visiting here in Bangkok, or > > if > > there are any groups for meditation, discussion, or whatever. I'm in > > Bangkok and interested to meet fellow Dhamma friends, so if anyone > > knows anything, please let me know. > .... > Sukin & Betty from the list live in Bangkok and I'm sure one of them will > contact you and arrange to meet/take you to a discussion. If not, let me > know off-list and I'll give you an email add. > > Shakti will be there later this month (see dates in her recent post). > Azita will be there in April (ditto for dates) and a few others of us are > still considering whether it's possible to meet them there just after > Easter(depending on work, costs etc for us). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 31137 From: dharmajim Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:49pm Subject: Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Good Friends: I'm new here. The discussion is very helpful. I'm not quite up to speed on a lot of the Pali terms, but I like an environment where they are used enough that I can begin to get a feel for them. I wanted to make a brief comment on Abhidhamma, inspired by some of the thoughts recently shared; some of them critical. For years I didn't understand Abhidhamma or its purpose. It seemed so obscure. I didn't understand the method either. I have a background in western philosophy. A guiding principle in that tradition is to use as few concepts as possible; but Abhidhamma seemed to generate an incredible number of categories and I couldn't grasp the reason for doing this. About two years ago, after some 30 years of practice, I decided to try again and read the Dhammasangani (in translation, I don't know Pali). Nyanaponika's Introduction was helpful in getting me past initial discomforts. What amazed me was that this time I found it beautiful, scintillating, even lyrical. I was amazed at the meticulousness, the wealth of detail and insight. It is one of the great monuments to human consciousness. In some ways I think of it as similar to something like Euclid's "Elements"; only the scope of the subject matter is much broader and the detail is much finer. The comparison I am making has to do with rigor and drawing out implications in a systematic way. So for some of us it takes a long time for our minds to open to Abhidhamma. If I hadn't practiced regularly for those decades I would not have had the patience to absorb a small part of its beauty. Best wishes, Dharmajim 31138 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member On 3/9/04 1:50 PM, "buddhatrue" wrote: Dear James, Thank you for responding and sharing your pleasure. Metta, Doret > Hi Doret, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: >> They also have a wondrous website called the Great Wisdom Center > that you >> might want to explore (http://www.greatwisdomcenter.org). >> >> Thank you for the welcome and the road signs. >> >> With metta, >> Doret > > OH WOW! The pictures on this site of Phra Mangkone with the > BlackFoot Indian Nation are priceless!! The dichotomy of the > ancient cultures together like that, from separate lands, is very > rare indeed! Thank you so much for sharing!!! :-)) > > Metta, James 31139 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Upadhi Dear Andrew. Thank you for your kind mail. Please don't take a sabbatical!!! We need you here. I would like to hear also your report on the Cooran weekend you will have soon. Maybe you can skip some mails when they are too many. Nina. op 09-03-2004 10:25 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > As a matter of fact, I will be taking a break from my > various email groups for a while. Hope to catch up with you all some > time in the future. 31140 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 9:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space and suttas Hi Larry, We also discussed this before. See: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20569.html I wrote: >...........to quote from CMA p241. Guide to #4 (B.Bodhi): “they do not arise directly from the four main causes of matter but existas modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter.” B.Bodhi continues to add that they are not paramattha dhammas, but I checked and can’t find this in the commentary (to Abhidhammattha Sangaha). I think it would be more accurate to say they are not paramattha dhammas *with sabhaava*, but they are listed among the asabhaava rupas, hence paramattha. Much as been written before about space, bodily and vocal intimation and the continuity, decay and impermanence of rupas as examples of these.< Space is therefore a reality indirectly originating from kamma and other causes with the kalapas of rupas it separates. It also has characteristics (lakkhana), even though it's asabhaava. Of course, cavity or space is also used as a concept (eg cavity in the ear etc) in the texts, but it is pointing to a reality. Whenever ‘space’ comes up, I have more questions than answers. I’m glad therefore to read your other qus and Nina’s responses. I think many inaccurate comments are written on this very subtle rupa. Metta, Sarah ====== 31141 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah and Ken O, Thanks for prompting me to join in, Sarah. At the moment, I am feeling particularly sorry for myself – I had two teeth extracted this morning and the anaesthetic has just worn off. Writing this post might be just the distraction I need :-) Ouch! :-( When there is physical pain (conventionally speaking), it does seem to cross the boundaries of body consciousness into seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting consciousness, doesn't it? In the same way, lobha, dosa, moha etc., seem to extend out from the moments in which they arise and occupy entire courses of action. I know you are aware of these things, Ken and so the point you are making, in this discussion with Sarah, must be a finer one – but I can't quite grasp it. It has been suggested to me that my discussion style might be a little extreme (a little over the top); is Sarah making the same mistake? If so, I am in good company :-) ----------------------- k: But Buddha do say in some situation it is impossible for satipatthana to arise. -------------------------------- I wonder what you mean. In what situations (again conventionally speaking) is it impossible for satipatthana to arise? Obviously, you are not referring to the exact same moment in which an akusala dhamma arises. So you must be saying that some dhammas cannot be known – in the citta process that immediately follows them -- by right understanding. -------------------------- KO: > As I say, lets be objective, we encourage others to be natural, not to live holy which in fact a false sense of self, but we have to encourage others to avoid aksuala actions because it can condition akusala cittas. Encourage others to avoid akusala does not pertain to one should be purposedly living holy, it encourges how to consider dhamma more as condition arise. --------------- As someone who has trouble seeing the boundary between theory and practice, it is not surprising that I am missing your point. We can develop understanding of the benefits of kusala and the dangers of akusala (as Sarah helps us do) – what other way is there by which we can avoid the one and condition the other? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > > > S: If we understood satipatthana to mean that `we can do whatever > > we like' or that it doesn't matter whether we're performing `good' > or `harm', then this would be wrong view. However, the Buddha never > suggested there was any situation when it was impossible for > satipatthana to arise and develop. > > 31142 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:20pm Subject: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Group, Ajahn Jose has given me permission to put his post on dsg telling of the state of his health. Some of you may already know, but I am sure it will come as a great shock to others. On 24 February, Ajahn wrote to us to say: "Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones". On 9 March, Ajahn wrote to Suan: "Last week when I was in hospital for three weeks, when they took the kidney stones the surgeon took pictures of my kidney. The bad news is that my left kidney is complete riddle with cancer so next Tuesday the 16th of March they are removing the left kidney to prevent the spread of the cancer to the right kidney. I will be at John James Memorial Private Hospital in Canberra. Hope to see you. Ajahn Jose." I know you will be thinking of him with metta and karuna now and especially on the 16th. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31143 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:24pm Subject: Re: Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Dear Dharmajim, Thank you so much for writing this. I have found it a beautifully written, gentle and inspiring post. At times, there does seem to be an anti-abhidhamma sentiment on dsg from some posters and I believe that we are all entitled to our 'all embracing net of views', and some of the discussion does become 'lively'. In this way, I learn, otherwise I am stuck in my own thoughts and they're murky enuff at the best of times. My introduction to Buddhism was via Abhidhamma discussion which centred around 'this present moment' as this is the only moment we ever have, and this is the only moment that we can ever be aware of. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dharmajim" wrote: > Good Friends: > > I'm new here. The discussion is very helpful. I'm not quite up to > speed on a lot of the Pali terms, but I like an environment where > they are used enough that I can begin to get a feel for them. > IMO, a great attitude, as I believe that the Pali terms used here are often quite difficult if not impossible, to translate precisely into English or any language, I would think. > I wanted to make a brief comment on Abhidhamma, inspired by some of > the thoughts recently shared; some of them critical. For years I > didn't understand Abhidhamma or its purpose. It seemed so obscure. > I didn't understand the method either. I have a background in > western philosophy. A guiding principle in that tradition is to use > as few concepts as possible; but Abhidhamma seemed to generate an > incredible number of categories and I couldn't grasp the reason for > doing this. > > About two years ago, after some 30 years of practice, I decided to > try again and read the Dhammasangani (in translation, I don't know > Pali). Nyanaponika's Introduction was helpful in getting me past > initial discomforts. What amazed me was that this time I found it > beautiful, scintillating, even lyrical. I was amazed at the > meticulousness, the wealth of detail and insight. It is one of the > great monuments to human consciousness. > The thought has occurred to me on several occasions that the Abhidhamma Pitaka must be the best science book ever written, and its science that can be experience here and now. > In some ways I think of it as similar to something like > Euclid's "Elements"; only the scope of the subject matter is much > broader and the detail is much finer. The comparison I am making > has to do with rigor and drawing out implications in a systematic > way. > > So for some of us it takes a long time for our minds to open to > Abhidhamma. If I hadn't practiced regularly for those decades I > would not have had the patience to absorb a small part of its beauty. > The more I study and understand, the more I see how much patience it REALLY requires; that these many descriptions of nama and rupa, of conditions, of dependent origination, the 4 Noble Truths, the 3 characteristics of impermance, not self and totally unsatisfactory, is all about what I take to be me and my life. > Best wishes, > > Dharmajim May we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 31144 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken O and Sarah, The point of contention between both of you seems to be quite subtle. I really need to have very good understanding to be able to add anything more than what you have already stated. I don't, but maybe saying a little about my own experience may give Ken a little more to consider. As you now understand, I agree totally with Sarah. Let me first try to express what I understand about your positions. I think what you Ken, are saying about `Naturalness' is that it can be taken wrongly and be an excuse of laxness. You consider `inherent tendencies' a major threat and so you think it good sense to always be alert. This leads you to view certain situations and activities as being non-conducive to the arising and/or development of satipatthana. You think that `natural' can be taken too far, leading to not being discriminative about whether a particular situation or activity should be avoided or not. I understand Sarah, to be insisting on naturalness in spite of everything, and this is my own position too! I consider `wrong view' as the *only* real threat to satipatthana. Allow me to say something about my own understanding of `natural'. In the beginning when I first heard it, I didn't understand it. It took quite some time, before I understood its principle. This went along with my increased understanding of the difference between `reality and concept'. But even when I started to `believe' in it, it was still on a rather superficial level. After all, the words `natural', `time' and `place', were understood as per the accumulated understanding then! One could be saying to oneself, that satipatthana could be practiced at anytime and anyplace and still be bound to the concept of `time' and `place', and even perhaps a `self' who is practicing anytime and anyplace!! ;-) I understood on a more or less philosophical level, that one must understand one's own mind as it reacts naturally to circumstances and that an idea of "doing" something would be an instance of obscuring that understanding. How can one understand conditionality if there is a `self' coming in between?! This being a philosophical position, it bread still an idea of `self being natural'. There would be instances of trying to catch realities `in daily life'. And though I understood that even this was not the way, it didn't reduce that tendency, because I needed to understand more. Which I think, I later did. Now, my understanding of natural is this. And guess what Ken, it goes along with my understanding of tendencies and conditionality. Your understanding of natural tendencies seems to have lead you to be more wary of them. In my case it has lead to a generally more relaxed attitude. Ken, I don't think Sarah or any of us would prefer akusala to kusala. And though it may be that you are more aware of subtle akusala than any of us, I still don't think that it makes sense to conclude from your own experience, that one must avoid certain situations and activities. This as Sarah has said, would be underestimating the scope of satipatthana, and worse, it could be adding to wrong view. There is absolutely no reason, after knowing some Dhamma, that our lives should change. Except for rare cases, I think any sudden change in one's daily activities could safely be concluded as reflective of `wrong understanding' of Dhamma. The natural tendencies rule and must be so, and how can we expect such little development of satipatthana to wipe all that out? Greed, aversion, conceit, pride, attachment and so on, none of these are not good objects of satipatthana. If all these didn't arise naturally, how are we expected to understand them? And even if sati doesn't arise, what would you do?!! As you know Ken, I play computer games, watch lots of movies and am attached to food. Would you rather that I stop these activities with a wrong view about control and self, than to side by side slowly study dhamma and get my views straightened? I do not consider any of my above mentioned activities as being preferable to say, sitting down and discussing dhamma. But when I do indulge in these activities, they are `conditioned'. And it is here if anywhere, that I can understand those conditions. If not, then how and where? If you are naturally to have `zeal' when you perceive akusala that is because of conditions, but would you expect this to be the case with everyone? And how could you say what goes on in the mind of others, at the beginning, in the middle of, or at the end of any conventional activity? Remember, the five precepts are training rules and not commandments. They are just guidelines and *cannot* be forced. Why? Because they must go with understanding. Luckily for us, these are quite gross akusala, so even someone with relatively low understanding can to a good degree follow them. But even then, there are and will be moments when we will break them. And this understanding does not go against `right view'. On the other hand, if someone thinks that one must perfect sila first, this I think is `wrong view'. Let us concentrate more on getting the facts right. ;-) I wanted to comment on a few points in your post, but this is already too long. So I end here and wait for feedback. Metta, Sukin ps: I just saw that Ken H. has also responded, but I am attached to the effort I put into writing this, so I will send this off without first reading his response. ;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > > > S: If we understood satipatthana to mean that `we can do whatever > > we like' or that it doesn't matter whether we're performing `good' > or `harm', then this would be wrong view. However, the Buddha never > suggested there was any situation when it was impossible for > satipatthana to arise and develop. > > k: But Buddha do say in some situation it is impossible for > satipatthana to arise. As I say, lets be objective, we encourage > others to be natural, not to live holy which in fact a false sense of 31145 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Hello Doret, Jack and all, All kinds of beings are together here suffering in Samsara - 'the wandering on' through uncountable rebirths. The three poisons of greed, hate and delusion are the same now as in the Buddha's time. Nothing has changed, despite the involvment of millions in political and welfare movements over many centuries. This is not to say that people should not be involved with the welfare of others. Helping others is admirable, things improve, but then things get worse again, depending on conditions, depending on kamma and vipaka ... nothing remains the same, there is incessant change - impermanence. Each and every being we personally come across in our daily life should be shown metta and karuna, not only humans, or special classes of humans. Each of us will do whatever conditions, and our accumulations, incline us to do. And what we do will strengthen those accumulations, wholesome or unwholesome. No-one would encourage you to stop doing what you're doing, but neither should you feel that it is compulsory for you to continue. I work as a crisis social worker in an area where most of the people are on social security benefits, there are over a hundred different ethnic groups, many are refugees without english or work skills, single parent families are the norm, there are large tracts of welfare housing, gangs and a general lack of services. From time to time I have started various groups, but continued them only so long as I felt they were serving a purpose that brought clear benefits to others, there was no other way to meet the need, and no other person/organisation able to do what needed to be done. But sometimes a break can be a good thing. The Buddha taught that the major effort should be on attaining Liberation. The teaching of the Buddha in the four noble truths is about exactly what suffering is and about the way to the end of suffering. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Jack, > > Thank you for referring me to Liberation Park. Now I have actual texts to > support engaged Buddhism.. (I could not access the bpf link.) > > I know these articles can't make decisions for me, but I can add them to the > mix when I have to decide. I have been wavering between continuing my > magazine and assisting others, on one hand, and leading a more contemplative > life, on the other hand. The first is on behalf of others; the second is > what I really want to do for myself. > > Thank you again for the references. > > Metta, > Doret > > > > On 3/9/04 11:01 AM, "Jackhat1@a..." wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/9/04 12:54:00 PM Central Standard Time, doretk@s... > > writes: > > Is it > > true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because > > they focus their attention only inward on liberation? > > Doret, > > > > No. > > > > Suggest you go to http://www.liberationpark.org/ , follow the link to Peace > > and another link to www.bpf.com. > > > > jack > > > > 31146 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Hi Doret Just one sentence If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to help others ;-). Cheers Ken O 31147 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 0:54am Subject: Abhidhamma/Jeff was (Re: the self. . . how?/Jack) Hi Philip, Philip: I won't keep coming back to it, just as I won't keep coming back to the things I said to James. Story over. (With a quick apology to James and all for the nasty tone I used. That won't happen again.) James: Oh sure, no problem. And even if it does happen again it is no problem. It is difficult to communicate this way because there is no way to immediately clarify and to soothe reactions. Some of what I wrote you took the wrong way but I didn't want to respond because it would have made things worse. Not only that, I found many of the things you wrote very hilarious!! ;-)) (Especially the last part about the pyramids filling my head with majestic crap! LOL!). It is forgotten. So, if your wife put a hex on me, please ask her to take it back. ;-)) Metta, James 31148 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:49am Subject: Transforming dosa Hello all In the last month or so I've fallen into the practice of observing soruces of dosa (though I didn't use that word) that arise in a repetitive way in my life, and working with them in my morning brahma- viharas meditation as a way of transforming them. And on the surface, it works. For example, I came to realize that men gobbing up phlegm and spitting it out on the street, quite a common sight and sound here, was causing me to react with aversion. Often it earned the gentlemen in question a glare, and on one regrettable day, I scolded a man with "you should be ashamed of yourself!" So I started to include these men in my brahma-viharas work, contemplating the suffering that is behind the gobbing of phlegm, and reminding myself that I too do disgusting things such as farting in elevators and never stop to regret it. Lately, thanks to this group, this kind of conceptual work started out by grounding myself as solidly in right understanding as I could. (Seeing people as rising and falling rupa and nama, the way I saw my wife the other day.) And it works. Now when I come across this scene, and I do every day, karuna rises immediately, and I am able to feel friendliness towards the men immediately rather than aversion. (Dosa becomes adosa?) And as a kind of extension, I find this extends to any kind of behaviour related to smoking that used to cause me aversion. It simply doesn't arise anymore. There is a growing list of these designated sources of aversion, and as a result, dosa is most definitely descreasing in my life. That's a fact. This afternoon, looking through the Usfeul Posts, I came across this from Jon. (msg #2088) Jon: Once we notice that recognising/identifying a form of akusala can appear to condition its falling away, it is very tempting to fall into the trap of adopting this as a form of 'practice'. (Indeed, whole schools of meditation practice have built up around this concept.) This of course would be a mistake, because it is wanting to be other that we truly are at that moment. And of course, getting rid of the dosa of the present moment by such means does not address the fundamental problem - lack of developed understanding. Actually, most of the ideas we have about 'practice' are wrong view (miccha ditthi). This should not surprise us. Just as we have more akusala in general in a day that kusala, so too with miccha ditti/samma ditthi in particular. Once we manage to accept this, it means we are more likely to recognise the miccha ditthi when it arises. This is vital for creating the right conditions for more awareness and right understanding to arise. As I have mentioned before, seeing one's previously unrecognised akusala can be a welcome thing. Much more useful than supressing those moments of akusala! -- end of quote -- So just like that, I was able to see through the shortcomings of my approach. It is addressing sources of aversion, and in a sense removing them from my life, but it is not getting at the root of my wrong understanding. Again, I feel such gratitude to this group, and I must say it's fun having such a steep learning curve! Just about every time I come here I learn something radically important. I'm not saying that I will abandon my practice. It's too effective to give up right away without playing with some more. But I will do it with the awareness that it is not -is amost certainly not- right understanding. I'll just add that another benefit of the practice I described above that it helps the other person. Being friendly towards aversion- causing people helps them more than glaring at them or scolding them. For those of us with altruistic leanings, helping others albeit through wrong understanding may be as important as liberating ourselves through right understanding. I expect I'll be continuing on this double track for awhile. Metta, Phil 31149 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sukin k: Aiyah - I encourage you to write and now I get a full essay ;-). > I think what you Ken, are saying about `Naturalness' is that it can be taken wrongly and be an excuse of laxness. You consider `inherent > tendencies' a major threat and so you think it good sense to always > be alert. k: IMHO one cannot be alert if one does not consider dhamma. I said earlier that one cannot burn candles just to be vigilant, there is no way. Only when one consider dhammas, then it will condition zeal. k: There are four kinds of undertaking, I belong to the third kind. If panna is strong enough, then the understaking will be the fourth kind pleasant abiding produce pleasant result. Since panna is not strong enough, then sila must come into place. that is the purpose of sila, - setting a boundary, a limit. Even one set it as a commandant is of no use, because panna is weak. Certain actions like wrong speech cannot be in satipatthana because it is akusala. That does not mean that sati cannot arise later. But if panna will arise during the speech or before the speech, then our actions can be two ways. A natural concept by letting it go, we follow the wrong speech. Or a naturally concept with sila enhance by panna, we stop talking. At this moment, one may blame one panna are weak and follow wrong speech, that is to me, a lame excuse. Because each aksuala actions will bring more akusala tendecies. If one know one panna is weak, then one should be more vigilant, consider the six senses more as it arise, arouse zeal (conditioned by consideration of dhamma). When one ponder more in dhamma, zeal will arouse, panna will increase. that is why the notion of having good dhamma friends etc are important for enlightement. Wrong view is a threat to satipathanna but inertia is also a threat to satipatthana. Satipatthana will not arise on its own without one consider dhamma. Then why I said dont be fooled by conditions because if one does not see conditions as this not mine, not I not myself, one fall into the trap. There is a suble difference in all are just conditions and all conditions are not mine, not I and not myself. When one see conditions and refuse to reflect further on its characteristics because of fear of it being thought as thinking rather than sati then it another unwise thing to do. Because only by reflecting it as anatta, again and again, then will these conditions will be known as it is. Yes we can say that by thinking it is full of false sense of self view. But if one does not ponder on anatta, one will not understand it. It is at times difficult to explain this subtle difference. S: The natural tendencies rule and must be so, and how can we expect such little development of satipatthana to wipe all that out? Greed, > aversion, conceit, pride, attachment and so on, none of these are > not good objects of satipatthana. If all these didn't arise > naturally, how are we expected to understand them? And even if sati> doesn't arise, what would you do?!! K: Sukin dont underestimate the power of satipatthana, small, subtle but powerful to overcome tendecies. It may not wipe out kilesa now, but that does not mean we should feed our kilesa more and more. S: Would you rather that I stop these activities with a wrong view about control and self, than to side by side slowly study dhamma and get my views straightened? K: No Sukin, you can never stop these activities until panna is strong enough. Only when we study more and more dhamma, then we automatically stop it. Dont even need a sila to control it. You got two choice (conventionally before Sarah said about choice again), either you consider more and more dhamma or you continue doing what you like. If I read suttas about this is not me, not I not myself can condition a false sense of self, then I be better off betting on it than going on to do what I like just because it is condition so we should be like that. If consider dhamma through reading of sutta is a wrong view, then I will rather bet on it than rather let my conditions overcome me. ;-). Ken O 31150 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Ajahn Jose, So sorry to hear this. I hope that you can maintain your good spirits and positive outlook. And remember that there is no greater refuge than the Dhamma. Hope that you have enough good kamma to overcome this period with little pain and that you would soon join us in the journey toward a greater understanding of the Buddha's teachings. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Ajahn Jose has given me permission to put his post on dsg telling of > the state of his health. Some of you may already know, but I am sure > it will come as a great shock to others. > > On 24 February, Ajahn wrote to us to say: > "Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. > While > I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple > where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I > caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis > infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney > infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the > stones". > > On 9 March, Ajahn wrote to Suan: > "Last week when I was in hospital for three weeks, when they took the > kidney stones the surgeon took pictures of my kidney. The bad news is > that my left kidney is complete riddle with cancer so next Tuesday > the 16th of March they are removing the left kidney to prevent the > spread of the cancer to the right kidney. I will be at John James > Memorial Private Hospital in Canberra. Hope to see you. Ajahn Jose." > > I know you will be thinking of him with metta and karuna now and > especially on the 16th. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31151 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Hi Christine, You have so very well expressed what I could not have in many more words. This reflects your deep understanding and success in bringing the lessons of dhamma into your work and daily life. I feel inspired. :-) Anumodana, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Doret, Jack and all, > > All kinds of beings are together here suffering in Samsara - 'the > wandering on' through uncountable rebirths. The three poisons of > greed, hate and delusion are the same now as in the Buddha's time. > Nothing has changed, despite the involvment of millions in political > and welfare movements over many centuries. This is not to say that > people should not be involved with the welfare of others. Helping > others is admirable, things improve, but then things get worse again, > depending on conditions, depending on kamma and vipaka ... nothing > remains the same, there is incessant change - impermanence. Each > and every being we personally come across in our daily life should > be shown metta and karuna, not only humans, or special classes of > humans. > Each of us will do whatever conditions, and our accumulations, > incline us to do. And what we do will strengthen those accumulations, > wholesome or unwholesome. > No-one would encourage you to stop doing what you're doing, but > neither should you feel that it is compulsory for you to continue. I > work as a crisis social worker in an area where most of the people > are on social security benefits, there are over a hundred different > ethnic groups, many are refugees without english or work skills, > single parent families are the norm, there are large tracts of > welfare housing, gangs and a general lack of services. From time to > time I have started various groups, but continued them only so long > as I felt they were serving a purpose that brought clear > benefits to others, there was no other way to meet the need, and no > other person/organisation able to do what needed to be done. But > sometimes a break can be a good thing. > The Buddha taught that the major effort should be on attaining > Liberation. The teaching of the Buddha in the four noble truths is > about exactly what suffering is and about the way to the end of > suffering. > > metta and peace, > Christine 31152 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Dear KenO, Sukin and Sarah, I am finding this discussion very interesting and would like to add to it. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sukin > > k: Aiyah - I encourage you to write and now I get a full essay ;-). > > > I think what you Ken, are saying about `Naturalness' is that it can > be taken wrongly and be an excuse of laxness. You consider `inherent > > tendencies' a major threat and so you think it good sense to always > > > be alert. > > k: IMHO one cannot be alert if one does not consider dhamma. I said > earlier that one cannot burn candles just to be vigilant, there is no > way. Only when one consider dhammas, then it will condition zeal. > > k: There are four kinds of undertaking, I belong to the third kind. > If panna is strong enough, then the understaking will be the fourth > kind pleasant abiding produce pleasant result. Since panna is not > strong enough, then sila must come into place. that is the purpose > of sila, - setting a boundary, a limit. Even one set it as a > commandant is of no use, because panna is weak. Certain actions like > wrong speech cannot be in satipatthana because it is akusala. That > does not mean that sati cannot arise later. But if panna will arise > during the speech or before the speech, then our actions can be two > ways. A natural concept by letting it go, we follow the wrong > speech. Or a naturally concept with sila enhance by panna, we stop > talking. At this moment, one may blame one panna are weak and follow > wrong speech, that is to me, a lame excuse. Because each aksuala > actions will bring more akusala tendecies. If one know one panna is > weak, then one should be more vigilant, consider the six senses more > as it arise, arouse zeal (conditioned by consideration of dhamma). > When one ponder more in dhamma, zeal will arouse, panna will > increase. that is why the notion of having good dhamma friends etc > are important for enlightement. > A: Have been listening to Dhamma Discussion on tape and it was about Silabbata-Paramasa and wrong view. Ken, I understand what you are saying, but we must be very careful not to fall into the trap of trying to control our situation. As I understand, Sati at the level of Satipatthana cannot arise unless there is highly developed right understanding. Right understanding that knows that this moment cannot be 'orchestrated' to suit our idea of what is right or wrong. It seems to me to be a very fine line bet. trying to control the present moment on one hand and 'allowing' the present moment to be just as it is as it arises. Its like first knowing in our head that this moment cannot be manipulated to suit our ideals, and then knowing in our heart that this is really true. It has to begin with rightunderstanding, I believe there is no other way. Maybe this is what you are saying in the next passage anyway. Wrong view is a threat to satipathanna but inertia is also a threat > to satipatthana. Satipatthana will not arise on its own without one > consider dhamma. Then why I said dont be fooled by conditions > because if one does not see conditions as this not mine, not I not > myself, one fall into the trap. There is a suble difference in all > are just conditions and all conditions are not mine, not I and not > myself. When one see conditions and refuse to reflect further on its > characteristics because of fear of it being thought as thinking > rather than sati then it another unwise thing to do. Because only by > reflecting it as anatta, again and again, then will these conditions > will be known as it is. Yes we can say that by thinking it is full > of false sense of self view. But if one does not ponder on anatta, > one will not understand it. It is at times difficult to explain this > subtle difference. > > > S: The natural tendencies rule and must be so, and how can we > expect such little development of satipatthana to wipe all that out? > Greed, > > aversion, conceit, pride, attachment and so on, none of these are > > not good objects of satipatthana. If all these didn't arise > > naturally, how are we expected to understand them? And even if > sati> doesn't arise, what would you do?!! > > K: Sukin dont underestimate the power of satipatthana, small, subtle > but powerful to overcome tendecies. It may not wipe out kilesa now, > but that does not mean we should feed our kilesa more and more. > > > S: Would you rather that I stop these activities with a wrong view > about control and self, than to side by side slowly study dhamma and > get my views straightened? > > K: No Sukin, you can never stop these activities until panna is > strong enough. Only when we study more and more dhamma, then we > automatically stop it. Dont even need a sila to control it. You got > two choice (conventionally before Sarah said about choice again), > either you consider more and more dhamma or you continue doing what > you like. If I read suttas about this is not me, not I not myself > can condition a false sense of self, then I be better off betting on > it than going on to do what I like just because it is condition so we > should be like that. If consider dhamma through reading of sutta is a > wrong view, then I will rather bet on it than rather let my > conditions overcome me. ;-). > > > > Ken O Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 31153 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Bhante, --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > So sorry to hear this. I hope that you can maintain your good > spirits and positive outlook. And remember that there is no greater > refuge than the Dhamma. > > Hope that you have enough good kamma to overcome this period with > little pain and that you would soon join us in the journey toward a > greater understanding of the Buddha's teachings. .... I’m sure we all on DSG share these kind wishes of Sukin’s. From the Dhammapada, we read: Verse 364. The bhikkhu who abides in the Dhamma, who delights in the Dhamma, who meditates on the Dhamma, and is ever mindful of the Dhamma, does not fall away from the Dhamma of the virtuous. [Dhammaaraamo dhammarato dhamma"m anuvicintaya"m dhamma"m anussara"m bhikkhu saddhammaa na parihaayati (Dhp 364)] ******* The Story of Thera Dhammarama http://www.vipassana.info/ While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (364) of this book, with reference to Thera Dhammarama. When it was made known to the disciples that the Buddha would realize Parinibbana in four months' time, most of the puthujjana bhikkhus (i.e., those who had not attained any of the Maggas) felt extremely depressed and were at a loss and did not know what to do. They just stayed close to the Buddha, hardly ever leaving his presence. However, there was a bhikkhu by the name of Dhammarama who kept to himself and did not go near the Buddha. His intention was to strive most ardently to attain arahatship before the passing away of the Buddha. So he strove hard in Insight Meditation Practice. Other bhikkhus, not understanding his attitude and his noble ambition, misunderstood his behaviour. Those bhikkhus took Dhammarama to the Buddha and said to the Enlightened One, "Venerable Sir! This bhikkhu does not seem to have any affection or regard or reverence for you; he has been staying by himself while all the time other bhikkhus are staying close to Your Venerable presence." When other bhikkhus had said everything they wanted to say, Dhammarama respectfully explained to the Buddha why he had not come to see the Buddha and also reported that he had been striving his utmost in Insight Meditation Practice. The Buddha was satisfied and was very pleased with the explanation and conduct of Dhammarama and he said, "My son, Dhammarama, you have done very well. A bhikkhu who loves and respects me should act like you. Those who made offerings of flowers, scents and incense to me are not really paying me homage. Only those who practise the Dhamma are the ones who truly pay homage to me." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 364. The bhikkhu who abides in the Dhamma, who delights in the Dhamma, who meditates on the Dhamma, and is ever mindful of the Dhamma, does not fall away from the Dhamma of the virtuous. At the end of the discourse Thera Dhammarama attained arahatship. ******************* With metta and very best wishes for a successful operation and good recovery. Sarah (& Jon) ==== 31154 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 11:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism In a message dated 3/9/04 7:37:10 PM Central Standard Time, doretk@s... writes: Thank you for referring me to Liberation Park. Now I have actual texts to support engaged Buddhism.. (I could not access the bpf link.) Try http://www.bpf.org/html/home.html for the Buddhist Peace Fellowship (BPF). jack. 31155 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Jack, I visited this link. PERFECT! Everything I could wish for! Thank you so much. Metta and appreciation, Doret On 3/10/04 4:23 AM, "Jackhat1@a..." wrote: > doretk@s... writes: > Thank you for referring me to Liberation Park. Now I have actual texts to > support engaged Buddhism.. (I could not access the bpf link.) > Try http://www.bpf.org/html/home.html for the Buddhist Peace Fellowship (BPF). > > jack. 31156 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Ken O, True. The trick is finding the right proportion of me to others. I feel a deep need to do more practice and study for me. But my current work for others leaves no more space. Meanwhile, I am not dwelling in past or future, confident that a way will unfold. Thank you for the reminder. With metta, Doret On 3/10/04 1:09 AM, "Ken O" wrote: > Hi Doret > > Just one sentence > > If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to help > others ;-). > > > > Cheers > Ken O 31157 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Christine, On 3/9/04 10:44 PM, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > From time to time I have started various groups, but continued them only so > long as I felt they were serving a purpose that brought clear benefits to others, there was no other way to meet the need, and no > other person/organisation able to do what needed to be done. > The Buddha taught that the major effort should be on attaining > Liberation. Unfortunately, my work seems to include the criteria you mention. The dilemma is perfectly stated above. Thank you for putting it so clearly. With metta, Doret 31158 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken H and (Michael) Not discussing this issue with you, when I read you have two teeth extracted, it reminds me of my injection (four short injections). The second was painful but amazing when the painful feeling is known as "not me, myself or I", there is pain but the feeling of I feeling pain is not there. A sense of detachment was there. The pain become bearable. The pain is just another fleeting moment that is experience. Michael Before you go, I read an interesting sutta (sunna sutta), something strike me "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self" then I always listen to you saying that dhamma has no core. Maybe this sutta statement that says it is empty of a self (including a permanent self) says that feeling (an eg) is empty of self (or a core), but it does not say feeling does not exist ;-) think about it. Occurance is not the way to explain dependent conditionality, it should be said existence of not self is the way to explain dependent conditionality, because the core is empty of a self but the occurance is truly experience. Maybe you tell me if you pinch youself now, you dont feel pain. The pain is empty of a self but the pain is there ;-) - that is how an empty core should be understand and not otherwise. Ken O 31159 From: Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Hi, Azita - In a message dated 3/10/04 1:24:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes to Dharmajim (Hi, Dharmajim! ;-): > At times, there does seem to be an anti-abhidhamma sentiment on > dsg from some posters and I believe that we are all entitled to > our 'all embracing net of views', and some of the discussion does > become 'lively'. ============================ This sounds like you think that one who has reservations of any sort with regard to the Abhidhamma, while having a "right" to such reservations, still must be infected with some of the wrong views that the Buddha lists among his "net of views" - among his mentioned "thicket of views". I suppose that one who considers only the Sutta Pitaka to be the actual word of the Buddha might adopt the same carte blanche position vis-a-vis Abhidhammikas. I personally think that both positions are off the mark, with the conclusion of necessarily being a victim of wrong view, in each case, simply not being a valid one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31160 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear D. Kollerer Good Guys finish last!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I agree that Catholicism can be an introduction to other systems. I started > with St. John of the Cross, which prepared me for Hafiz and Rumi in Sufi > literature, for the Bhagavad Gita, and for Zen. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Congratulations! That's an excellent "Curriculum Vitae"!!!! Your quarterly seems to be a good initiative to put in practice many buddhistic ethics issues!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > My quarterly magazine is The Justice Xpress, a low-budget (printed on cheap > paper), social-political-environmental publication. It is politically left > of center. When it was called The North Coast Xpress, it was on Internet > until Fall 2001. A battered remnant is at http://thunder.sonic.net/~doretk/ > > The Justice Xpress is not online. Prisoners are my main concern and they > need a printed publication.. The magazine is in its 12th year, and I don't > know what to do. I think of it as a window on the world for prisoners and a > window on prisoners for the world. The final 13 pages are written by or for > prisoners and offer spiritual, legal and other help. (The current one has an > article about a prisoner by a Soto Zen priest.) Six ads offer free Buddhist > help, one of them a Karma book. That is the problem. I would like to quit > the magazine, but that means sacrificing assistance for prisoners on death > rows around the country, for those in solitary confinement, and for those > who are tortured in this hidden world. I finally decided that the next issue > would be the last one, then had second thoughts. Right now I don't know > what to do. (If anyone would like to see a copy and give advice, let me > know.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Meritorious!!!!! I do believe that many people here at dsg could acquire many benefit to theit Kamma getting a hand on such applied matters! How many of us could even have got endurance and stamina to carry on prisioners' assistance ??? Keep Boostin' Doret!!! Could I get a copy ? If so, I will send you my complete name and address at next post here and you'll get my ( and RobMoult's !!!) subscription!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31161 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Dear Sukin: So, You want to learn Brazuca's Dialect!!!!! Ah! That's a challenge!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The point of contention between both of you seems to be quite > subtle. I really need to have very good understanding to be able to > add anything more than what you have already stated. I don't, but > maybe saying a little about my own experience may give Ken a little > more to consider. As you now understand, I agree totally with Sarah. > Let me first try to express what I understand about your positions. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I get some conversation primers on Hindi (Hindustani) and Urdu. My retailer could find me also Hipocrene Series Gujarati's, Tamil's, Malay's and so on. When I was trying to carry on my PhD grade on National Observatory of Rio de Janeiro I had got a lecturer which native's tongue were malay!!! Very funny!!! Not I am with the Military Personnel... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I wanted to comment on a few points in your post, but this is > already too long. So I end here and wait for feedback. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I am looking forward for your CDs!!! May I Ask you, Sukin, what's your native language ??? Mettaya, Ícaro 31162 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Chris: > All kinds of beings are together here suffering in Samsara - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Now it's just in time for you to do something objetive and real for them!!!!! Doret's initiative seems to me a good idea for engaged buddhism! Mettaya, Ícaro 31163 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Ícaro, You take my breath away. Such supportive words! Yes, you can get a copy. Please send address(s). Much mudito, Doret > On 3/10/04 7:31 AM, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear D. Kollerer > Your quarterly seems to be a good initiative to put in practice > many buddhistic ethics issues!!! > > I do believe that many people here at dsg could acquire many > benefit to theit Kamma getting a hand on such applied matters! How > many of us could even have got endurance and stamina to carry on > prisioners' assistance ??? > > Keep Boostin' Doret!!! > > Could I get a copy ? If so, I will send you my complete name and > address at next post here and you'll get my ( and RobMoult's !!!) > subscription!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro > 31164 From: Andy Wilson Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Ken O: > If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to > help others ;-). why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it conceivable that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping others might be connected with our own progress? > Suggest you go to http://www.liberationpark.org/ , follow the link to > Peace and another link to www.bpf.com. i read this article with great interest: http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002a/nonviolence.htm and found that while i couldn't agree with the politics of the argument, i agreed with it's principle - namely that buddhism is not at all a pacifist philosophy, as far as i understand it. metta andy > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken O [mailto:ashkenn2k@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:09 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism > > > Hi Doret > > Just one sentence > > If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to > help others ;-). > > > > Cheers > Ken O 31165 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Doret Here you get, pal! Ícaro dos Santos França Rua Bulhões Marcial 553, ap.201, Parada de Lucas, CEP 21241370, Rio de janeiro., RJ, BRAZIL. I will look forward for your mag copy!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31166 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence dear Andy: > i agreed with it's principle - namely that buddhism is not at all a > pacifist philosophy, as far as i understand it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact!!! Buddha never stressed up at Non-Violence way...his words have got the meaning that we ought to understand our minds and how to free the ties that bind us on the Samsara wheel. Only at Asoka's age had appeared the idea of compassionate feelings for all beings, vegetarianism and so on Mettaya, Ícaro 31167 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:04am Subject: space, Dsgn, Expositor space, Dsgn, Expositor Space, recap, Vis XIV, 36, Tiika: Dhammasangani, 638: That which is space and belongs to space, is sky and belongs to sky, is vacuum and belongs to vacuum, and is not in contact with the four Great Phenomena. The Expositor II (p. 425) <...space is that which is not Œscratched¹, not scratched off, which is not possible to scratch, cut, or break... ŒSky¹ [in Pali agha] is that which is not struck (a-gha.m); not strikable is the meaning. Aghagata²m is the same. ŒVacuum¹ (vivara, opening) is in the sense of a hole; also vivaragata.m. By Œuntouched by the four great essentials¹ the unentangled space-element untouched by these is stated...> (follows the definition). Remarks: untouched, because it is empty, like air. Conventional terms such as cavity of the ear, nose, spaces in the body, are used, helping us to understand its nature. It seems a mere nothing, like air, but still, it performs very neatly its function, separating the groups of rupa. What chaos there would be without it. The groups would not be distinct, they would permeate each other. Each of the groups of octads, nonads, decads etc. plays its own part, it is important that they are distinct. The eyedecad contains eyesense, a necessary condition for seeing. Nobody can say, be there in time, don¹t fall away, so that you can be base for seeing. It performs its function, arising just for a moment and then gone. The decad of speech intimation (the inseparables, sound and speech intimation) arises at the appropriate time, and nobody can tell it to do so. Speech intimation has performed its function before we realize it. Space surrounds all these different groups. ***** (to be continued with Tiika) 31168 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, more to come. Hi Larry, op 10-03-2004 01:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > Is there any commentary for space, or should we go on to the lightness > triad? N: Yes, more to come. And before going on to lightness: I want to post what I have in my Rupas on this triad, as a kind of intro. . 31169 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Andy, Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no wiggle room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: the magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and selecting teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending prisoners spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung cancer and needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation practice, and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE connected with our own progress. With metta, Doret On 3/10/04 7:56 AM, "Andy Wilson" wrote: > Ken O: >> If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to >> help others ;-). > > why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it conceivable > that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping others > might be connected with our own progress? > > metta > > andy > > > 31170 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Ícaro, Your full name is beautiful. Thank you for the address. With metta, Doret On 3/10/04 8:00 AM, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Doret > > Here you get, pal! > > Ícaro dos Santos França > > Rua Bulhões Marcial 553, ap.201, > Parada de Lucas, CEP 21241370, > Rio de janeiro., RJ, BRAZIL. > > I will look forward for your mag copy!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 31171 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Doret, > > Your full name is beautiful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Heh... Thanxs!!!! Mettaya, ícaro 31172 From: LaVerne Lenhart Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:03am Subject: New to Group Hi. I am new to your group and I am very interested in getting started. Is there a particular spot for a beginner?? I have studied Metaphysics for many years. Are there any particular websites to begin???? Thanks so much, Namaste, LaVerne dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com wrote: There are 25 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 31173 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:20pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Andy, > > Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no wiggle > room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: the > magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and selecting > teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending prisoners > spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung cancer and > needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation practice, > and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE connected > with our own progress. > > With metta, > Doret > > > > On 3/10/04 7:56 AM, "Andy Wilson" wrote: > > > Ken O: > >> If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to > >> help others ;-). > > > > why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it conceivable > > that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping others > > might be connected with our own progress? > > > > metta > > > > andy It is commendable that you have done so much bringing the dhamma to prisoners, but I believe your own practice should come first. I also feel an affinity for prisoners, and I even joined The Prison Dharma Network, but then I realized that I am no position to really help prisoners and dropped out. Why? Because I realized that I am in a type of prison myself. I am in the prison of samsara and the five clinging aggregates. This prison of suffering is there no matter where I go; I don't need to be surrounded by concrete and bars to know suffering. From the top of my head to the tip of my toes is my jail cell. How much can one person in prison help another person in prison? Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara are in any position to really help those who are still in prison (either metaphorically or literally). The Buddha taught for 45 years all anyone needs to know to get out of the prison. The rest is up to each person. I just thought I would share my thoughts with you—ultimately you should follow your heart and do what you think is best. Personally, I think that one day I will work to help prisoners, but I have to work on my own release first. ;-)) Metta, James 31174 From: Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space and suttas Hi Sarah, I think the comments in the Guide in CMA are U Rewata Dhamma's. I seem to recall a correspondence from B. Bodhi re. a question we had about CMA and I believe he said he was just the editor. Larry 31175 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:08pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 09 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has changed his body position from sitting to standing and then he changes into walking meditation. While he walks he is continuously noting whatever is sensed. He looks just 4 feet ahead but he still sees the floor he has been walking on. He notes that we moves and at the same time he sees the floor. He recognizes that seeing-consciousness arises, persists and falls away. While he is doing walking meditation he can hear the sound of fan and he recognizes that hearing-consciousness arises, persists and falls away. At an unmarked time he gets some smell and he realizes that there arises smell-consciousness and it persists and it falls away. After his breakfast there still left some taste in his mouth even though he washes and cleans his mouth. He can taste and he recognizes that taste-consciousness arises, it persists, and it falls away. While he is walking he is continuously noting raise, stretch, step, stand and in the process he notices that his foot touches the floor and touch-consciousness arises, persists, and falls away. He realises that these consciousness or vinnana are not him or his. There is no trace of self or atta in these consciousness or vinnana. Vinnana just arise, persist, and fall away. There is no one controlling them. They all are anatta. They are the source for arising of nama dhamma. They are clinging aggregates of consciousness called vinnanupadanakkhandha. They are anatta. He see dhamma as they really are. May you all see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31176 From: Rev. John B. Brown Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:17pm Subject: Western Engaged Buddhism For those that are interested in creating a forum for a Western Vehicle of Buddhism to evolve go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bodhi00. Metta---John 31177 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Doret, > It is commendable that you have done so much bringing the dhamma to > prisoners, but I believe your own practice should come first. I > also feel an affinity for prisoners, and I even joined The Prison > Dharma Network, but then I realized that I am no position to really > help prisoners and dropped out. Why? Because I realized that I am > in a type of prison myself. I am in the prison of samsara and the > five clinging aggregates. This prison of suffering is there no > matter where I go; I don't need to be surrounded by concrete and > bars to know suffering. From the top of my head to the tip of my > toes is my jail cell. How much can one person in prison help > another person in prison? > A. 'from the top of my head....' this sounds like a description of me, James. How often do I 'wanna break free',- at least 10 times a day. I have to keep reminding myself that that is just a desire, to be free of the binds that keep me tied to samsara; but that's just thinking, not the way out but, as I see it, the way further in!!! > Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara > are in any position to really help those who are still in prison > (either metaphorically or literally). A: Yes, I tend to agree with you here, altho I'm sure that even as a sorry worldling, there must be moments where we can genuinly help someone. The Buddha taught for 45 > years all anyone needs to know to get out of the prison. The rest > is up to each person. I just thought I would share my thoughts with > you—ultimately you should follow your heart and do what you think is > best. Personally, I think that one day I will work to help > prisoners, but I have to work on my own release first. ;-)) > > Metta, James Patience, courage and good cheer, most of the time very hard to maintain from this puthujjana 's point of view. Azita. 31178 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:36pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello all, James wrote: >Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara >are in any position to really help those who are still in prison >(either metaphorically or literally). This is very interesting. A few weeks ago I would have disputed it absolutely, now I stop and think that it may be true. It's an example of how this group is pushing me to look at my understanding square on. I think we can provide soothing balms for people. For example, through brahma-viharas. And there is something to be said for balms. But James is right that to offer a true way out of prison, we have to get out first. And yet... have even the most advanced practicioners here reached true liberation yet? Nevertheless, you surely "really help" others. For example, I think of how much radically important guidance I've received in the 3 weeks or so since I came here. It hasn't gotten me out of prison, but it has surely shown me that I was trying to get out the wrong way. Metta, Phil p.s Doret - I have great admiration for the way you dedicate yourself to helping others - there is no way this kind of disccusion can take away from that merit. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: > > Dear Andy, > > > > Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no > wiggle > > room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: > the > > magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and > selecting > > teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending > prisoners > > spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung > cancer and > > needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation > practice, > > and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE > connected > > with our own progress. > > > 31179 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear James, You are absolutely right about not helping others until I have liberated myself as long as you are talking about personally teaching others. I do not teach. I perform a very lowly task, simply opening letters from prisoners, learning their needs, then sending one or more of these guides: Establishing a Legal Defense Fund, Interacting with Pen Pals and Visitors, Ven. Chutiko's Anapanasati Meditation Practice, Legal Support Resources, Prisoner Resources, Spiritual Pen Pal resources, Free Book resources. The magazine itself contains free offers to prisoners: Fortune News, Dharma Teaching Altar Cards, Hongaku Jodo of America (Buddhist mentoring & teaching, The Engaged Zen Foundation help, Karma Book, Doing Your Time with Peace of Mind Meditation by Doug Booth, Siddha Yoga Meditation Project, Bhavagad Gita book and Lessons, Centering Prayer Meditation (Father Keating), Innocence Denied, Support Group for the wrongfully convicted in CA, United Brethren Outreach Ministry, Health News, free legal help, assistance for troubled youth and adult prisoners, Chicano Mexicano Prison Project, Mishpacha-Yisrael,Tempel Bet Shalom for Jewish Inmates, D'awa Information Group for Muslim prisoners. I could be a non-Buddhist and carry out these chores. I don't have to think. I don't have to be a doer or giver. but the work can help someone on Death Row or someone caged in a tiny cell without human contact or family or friends in the outside world. I don't think you would suggest abandoning this work because I am not an advanced Buddhist practitioner. Strangely enough, three people visited me today and want to make the magazine a nonprofit and perhaps eventually take it over. Fund-raising would be possible. A lot of training is involved. And we may run out of money first. Either way, the problem will be settled. With metta, Doret On 3/10/04 1:20 PM, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Doret, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: >> Dear Andy, >> >> Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no > wiggle >> room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: > the >> magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and > selecting >> teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending > prisoners >> spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung > cancer and >> needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation > practice, >> and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE > connected >> with our own progress. >> >> With metta, >> Doret >> >> >> >> On 3/10/04 7:56 AM, "Andy Wilson" wrote: >> >>> Ken O: >>>> If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to >>>> help others ;-). >>> >>> why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it > conceivable >>> that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping > others >>> might be connected with our own progress? >>> >>> metta >>> >>> andy > > It is commendable that you have done so much bringing the dhamma to > prisoners, but I believe your own practice should come first. I > also feel an affinity for prisoners, and I even joined The Prison > Dharma Network, but then I realized that I am no position to really > help prisoners and dropped out. Why? Because I realized that I am > in a type of prison myself. I am in the prison of samsara and the > five clinging aggregates. This prison of suffering is there no > matter where I go; I don't need to be surrounded by concrete and > bars to know suffering. From the top of my head to the tip of my > toes is my jail cell. How much can one person in prison help > another person in prison? > > Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara > are in any position to really help those who are still in prison > (either metaphorically or literally). The Buddha taught for 45 > years all anyone needs to know to get out of the prison. The rest > is up to each person. I just thought I would share my thoughts with > you—ultimately you should follow your heart and do what you think is > best. Personally, I think that one day I will work to help > prisoners, but I have to work on my own release first. ;-)) > > Metta, James 31180 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) My Dear Friends,I would like to thank everybody for the wonderfull support and best wishes. I was devastated when I was told I have cancer to my kidney and that it has to be removed immidiately to prevent spread to the other one. Times like this I can see buddhism and the Dhamma at work. All of you have been terrific. I am going now to hospital for test and pre operation procedures. On the 16th is the big operation but I know that Suan will keep you inform. I am lucky to go to one of the best private hospital in the country and I got the top surgeon from Sydney coming to perform the operation.Two Dhammakaya monks are arriving today from Sydney to be with me all the time plus two Sri Lankan monks from Canberra are taking care of me. The support and loving kindness of the Shanga is magnificent. With Love , metta and appreciation. Ajahn Jose. I will be intouch after the operation 31181 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Howard and Jack, Dhamma study is an amazing business, isn't it? You especially like the term `prescribed behaviour' and I especially like the term `described behaviour.' Each of us is enthusiastic and well meaning but, at the same time, we are at loggerheads. Can discussion help, or should we agree to disagree and go our separate ways? In my opinion we can engage in constructive discussion provided we have a referee. Then, at least, we can say `this view is consistent with the referee's decision; this view is inconsistent.' We won't have to agree with the referee, just acknowledge his decisions. For the position of referee, I nominate the Pali Canon and its ancient Theravada commentaries. This won't please everyone, but what better choice could there be? I sometimes read emails from an Internet group called Buddha-L. It is composed mostly of American academics. They are very intelligent and eloquent, but they have a hotrod builder's approach to Dhamma study. They say; "I basically accept [eg] the Theravada teachings but I borrow from all traditions." And so their forum is a virtual Dhamma hotrod show: "Come and see my Dhamma model; I have taken the Pali Canon, ripped out its references to paramattha dhammas, and replaced them with Nagarjuna's theory of `experiential flux.' I've pretty well rejected the idea of `bare insight training' but I'm allowing some flexibility there. I've also adopted a rather natty Zen approach to the jhanas and . . . . ." It is good site for displaying one's creations in public, but that's about all. At dsg, I think we can have the best of both worlds. We can air our personal preferences but let's, at the same time, ascertain and acknowledge the original, Theravada teaching. Kind regards, Ken H It seem to me that if one follows prescribed behavior (prescribed by the > Buddha), and examines whatever arises with calm, non-reactive, non- selective, and > intent > attention, then what is actual will, in varying degrees, as conditions > determine, appear and be directly known. And the more regular and the more > correct the practice of mindful, non-reactive attention is carried out, the more > responsive the mind will become. > Howard, > > You said what I meant much better than I did. I notice that happens a lot. I > especially liked your reference to prescribed behavior. > > jack 31182 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, > k: Aiyah - I encourage you to write and now I get a full essay ;- ). S: LOL, I'm always long winded. I think I must have been some kind of a preacher in a previous existence. ;-) > k: IMHO one cannot be alert if one does not consider dhamma. I said > earlier that one cannot burn candles just to be vigilant, there is no > way. Only when one consider dhammas, then it will condition zeal. S: Zeal is not the only possible outcome of a moment of rt. understanding. And even if it did arise, who is to say what will follow immediately? > k: There are four kinds of undertaking, I belong to the third kind. > If panna is strong enough, then the understaking will be the fourth > kind pleasant abiding produce pleasant result. Since panna is not > strong enough, then sila must come into place. S: I think it is dangerous to characterize oneself as this or that. It is quite unlikely that we will know exactly. Moreover right or wrong, there is never any reason to follow any prescribed path or even have any inclination to prefer one over the other, I think. Btw, what are these four kinds of undertaking? Any Suttas? > k: that is the purpose of sila, - setting a boundary, a limit. Even one set it as a > commandant is of no use, because panna is weak. S: A limit for what? Can we control conditions? What is sila if not `restraint' at the moment when the opportunity arises? Can we carry sila over to consequent moments? What would this imply? Beside there can be restraint with a sense of self, or there can be satipatthana of that moment. And when satipatthana does arise, then the sila is already perfect. > k: Certain actions like wrong speech cannot be in satipatthana because it is akusala. S: And Samatha, Dana and Sila can't be satipatthana either, so what? Panna cannot know itself or the accompanying cetasikas, but in the following moment anything can be known. During speech anything can be the object of satipatthana, the `intention', or `speech intimation', or `dosa' or `moha' or `sound'. Yes akusala can't be kusala and satipatthana is only kusala. But anything can be natural decisive support condition for satipatthana in the moment that follows, as you indicate below. > k: That does not mean that sati cannot arise later. But if panna will arise > during the speech or before the speech, then our actions can be two > ways. A natural concept by letting it go, we follow the wrong > speech. Or a naturally concept with sila enhance by panna, we stop > talking. S: So what you are saying is that if the panna is too weak to condition restraint for more than a moment, it would be wise then to summon up energy to restraint anyway. This you say can be done with a level of wisdom not of satipatthana, but kusala nevertheless. Like I said above, anything can be decisive support condition for satipatthana, but I would also caution, that lobha and wrong view can be conditioned anytime. So if indeed there is sila in the following moment and one stops talking, even this can be known. However you would agree that just keeping sila is not preferable to satipatthana which can arise at anytime. There is always a danger of lobha attaching to the idea of keeping sila, and this I believe can make it equally difficult, if not more, for panna of satipatthana to arise. Besides, the very idea of keeping sila because of fear of inherent tendencies can be due to an attachment to self. Because if indeed one saw in the moment that the citta is akusala and hence conditioning sila, there is no reason that this should then give rise to an idea of developing more sila. One might have seen then that it was because there was sati and panna that the remembrance to keep sila arose. So what should the priority be? > k: At this moment, one may blame one panna are weak and follow > wrong speech, that is to me, a lame excuse. S: I think if I ignored sila and indulged in akusala, it would not be with the excuse that there is weak panna, but rather that there would actually be no panna then. ;-) And if I indeed had such thoughts that you express above, then I believe that it is wrong view. Because I don't believe that panna or lack of it is anything more than a single moment arising and completely fallen away. How can I presuppose lack of panna at any given moment? There is or there is no panna, no need for excuses. And there is or there is no restraint, no excuses here either. What you are saying is that if I had an overall idea of having weak panna, then I should at least see the importance of developing sila to support my practice. But weak panna works on either side of sila. One can restraint with self, if not, then there is still a danger for lack of panna, to identify with the self having `kept sila'. And worse, like the example of the `old and young monk' which Howard recently gave, the young monk could be carrying the idea of keeping sila with him for a long time. I am also thinking now, about how identification wrongly with any particular aspect of the Teachings can condition self view and hence lead to wrong practice. > k: Because each aksuala > actions will bring more akusala tendecies. If one know one panna is > weak, then one should be more vigilant, consider the six senses more > as it arise, arouse zeal (conditioned by consideration of dhamma). > When one ponder more in dhamma, zeal will arouse, panna will > increase. that is why the notion of having good dhamma friends etc > are important for enlightement. S: Yes, akusala conditions more akusala. But can akusala be vigilant? Does kusala necessarily arise to `consider the six senses more' after seeing in principle, the danger of akusala? Do you forget what you were discussing recently about `guarding the five sense doors and mind'? Does zeal last? Is it self? And if zeal arose and one ponders dhamma and discusses with wise friends, is panna surely going to increase? Is panna dependent on the zeal or on accumulated panna? Once when asked about `wise friends' , K. Sujin responded by saying that one should oneself try to be the wise friend! One implication of this as I see it, is that one will find what one is looking for, so it would be wrong to focus on how others are. However with one's own views straightened, one's chance of coming upon the truly wise friend increases. Of course one could be entirely wrong, but this is not the point. And what in fact in the ultimate sense is the `wise friend'? One's own panna cetasika! Why I mention this, is that ultimately, going right or wrong depends entirely the panna of this present moment, be it on the level of interacting with others, or of understanding realities. The wrong focus leads to the wrong way. > k: Wrong view is a threat to satipathanna but inertia is also a threat > to satipatthana. Satipatthana will not arise on its own without one > consider dhamma. S: There is only right or wrong effort, no question of inertia. Can one arouse right effort by resolving to guard the senses? What are the conditions for satipatthana? No dhamma arises without the appropriate conditions coming together. > k: Then why I said dont be fooled by conditions > because if one does not see conditions as this not mine, not I not > myself, one fall into the trap. There is a suble difference in all > are just conditions and all conditions are not mine, not I and not > myself. S: I think I understand the point you are making, and I agree about the difference. But then the difference is not only there, but also between any two moments of understanding. Such that one may repeat to oneself that "this not mine, not I, not myself" on two separate occasions, yet the understanding would be different. And on the other hand, one could be saying that `all are just conditions' with deep understanding. In the end, there are no `magic words'. And we *do* almost always get `fooled', this being the function of `avijja'. ;-) > k: When one see conditions and refuse to reflect further on its > characteristics because of fear of it being thought as thinking > rather than sati then it another unwise thing to do. Because only by > reflecting it as anatta, again and again, then will these conditions > will be known as it is. Yes we can say that by thinking it is full > of false sense of self view. But if one does not ponder on anatta, > one will not understand it. It is at times difficult to explain this > subtle difference. S: Ken, I think it is better to remember Azita's `patience, courage and good cheer', than to try to force `reflection'. None of us have any choice about whether or not there will be sati and panna. The journey is difficult, but we can't hasten it. I accept your point about `excuse', but the important thing is to "know" it, not feel driven to *do* something about it. > K: No Sukin, you can never stop these activities until panna is > strong enough. Only when we study more and more dhamma, then we > automatically stop it. Dont even need a sila to control it. You got > two choice (conventionally before Sarah said about choice again), > either you consider more and more dhamma or you continue doing what > you like. S: Or have patience, courage and good cheer. ;-) And that could be an instance of understanding, no? (of the puthujana kind of course). > k: If I read suttas about this is not me, not I not myself > can condition a false sense of self, then I be better off betting on > it than going on to do what I like just because it is condition so we > should be like that. If consider dhamma through reading of sutta is a > wrong view, then I will rather bet on it than rather let my > conditions overcome me. ;-). S: Have you been influenced by Victor? ;-) ;-). Of course I agree with you that giving in to one's desires is bad. But why should you believe that there can be no understanding at anytime? Remember, even the Sotapana and Sakadagami have no choice with regard to lobha for sensual things. I expect that you will say something like, "Sukin, I understand you, but you don't understand me!" So now it is you who will have to summon up the effort to explain better. But isn't this also a good exercise? Sorry for the length of this post. Hopefully it will not be as long next time. ;-) Metta, Sukin 31183 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Icaro, > So, You want to learn Brazuca's Dialect!!!!! > Ah! That's a challenge!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- :-) As you can see, I have just modified the heading in my reply to Ken O. But this one I maintain, because I don't even know what Brazuca means. :-( Anyway recently I saw an excellent film from your country, "City of Gods". Is it really true what they show in that movie?!! --- --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I get some conversation primers on Hindi (Hindustani) and Urdu. My > retailer could find me also Hipocrene Series Gujarati's, Tamil's, > Malay's and so on. > When I was trying to carry on my PhD grade on National Observatory > of Rio de Janeiro I had got a lecturer which native's tongue were > malay!!! Very funny!!! > Not I am with the Military Personnel... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- I am not surprised….. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > I am looking forward for your CDs!!! > May I Ask you, Sukin, what's your native language ??? > > > Mettaya, Ícaro --------------------------------------------------------------------- I've always had bad verbal skills, so in daily life, I mix Thai, English and Hindi. And I am embarrassed to admit that I can't even speak my mother tongue, Punjabi. :-/ Your CDs have been shipped since last Saturday. I sent them by registered airmail instead of Express mail, to save cost. But I expect that you will receive them in less than two weeks. There are a couple of surprises in the package which I hope you will like. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 31184 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Ken H and (Michael) > > Not discussing this issue with you, when I read you have two teeth > extracted, it reminds me of my injection (four short injections). > The second was painful but amazing when the painful feeling is known > as "not me, myself or I", there is pain but the feeling of I feeling > pain is not there. A sense of detachment was there. The pain become > bearable. The pain is just another fleeting moment that is > experience. > > Hi Ken O, I followed a different method and it worked just as well. On my way to the surgery, I happened to consider the dentist's feelings. Dentists must dread pulling teeth – not only is it traumatic, it also means the loss of some valuable chewing equipment and, for steak lovers like myself, that can be very depressing. Why should I show my depression? It is clearly not the dentist's fault that I didn't look after my teeth; why should he have to feel bad about it? That moment of thoughtful good will worked a treat: I was bright and cheerful – even made some passably funny remarks. I didn't wince or whine at the painful bits, nor did I look for sympathy. At the end of it all, the dentist said twice, "You were very good." So it worked out well for both of us. And the credit goes to understanding kusala – not, dare I say, to any technique of observing pain. :-) (By the way I realise you weren't proposing any artificial `technique.' In your case, what saved you was your accumulated understanding (from your studies and experience) that pain was a mere, fleeting, impersonal nama.) Kind regards, Ken H 31185 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin > S: Zeal is not the only possible outcome of a moment of rt. > understanding. And even if it did arise, who is to say what will > follow immediately? k: this is not what I say, check the sutta text and you find many references that consideration of dhamma condition zeal ;-). > S: I think it is dangerous to characterize oneself as this or that. > > It is quite unlikely that we will know exactly. Moreover right or > wrong, there is never any reason to follow any prescribed path or > even have any inclination to prefer one over the other, I think. > Btw, what are these four kinds of undertaking? Any Suttas? k: No it is not dangerous because one know one weaknesses. It is more dangerous not to know one weaknesses or blemishes. Even though we can say such clinging of weaknesses or blemishes will pertain to a self, to me it is not. Presently I give you two sutta references, MN 45 - Culadhammasamadana Sutta and MN 46 - Mahaculadhammasamadana Sutta on the four undertakings, there are more just that I could not find it now. > S: A limit for what? Can we control conditions? What is sila if > not `restraint' at the moment when the opportunity arises? Can we > carry sila over to consequent moments? What would this imply? > Beside there can be restraint with a sense of self, or there can be > satipatthana of that moment. And when satipatthana does arise, then > the sila is already perfect. K: Does it mean that since we cannot control conditions and we let all hell break lose. Precepts are limits to remind us. It is up to our panna or wise attention of dhamma to follow it. It we think hey who cares about such precepts then Buddha in the first place do not have it at all ;-). In the meantime when satipatthana is yet perfected, intellectual understanding of it is being important. Buddha never say we should follow sila till perfection for wordlings because he knows it is not possible for one's that has a weak panna. > S: And Samatha, Dana and Sila can't be satipatthana either, so > what? Panna cannot know itself or the accompanying cetasikas, but in the following moment anything can be known. During speech anything can be the object of satipatthana, the `intention', or `speech > intimation', or `dosa' or `moha' or `sound'. Yes akusala can't be > kusala and satipatthana is only kusala. But anything can be natural > decisive support condition for satipatthana in the moment that > follows, as you indicate below. K: Sila is not saitpatthana but it is kusala, do you prefer in akusala behaviour that conditioned tendecies or ... > > S: So what you are saying is that if the panna is too weak to > condition restraint for more than a moment, it would be wise then > to summon up energy to restraint anyway. This you say can be done with a level of wisdom not of satipatthana, but kusala nevertheless. > Like I said above, anything can be decisive support condition for > satipatthana, but I would also caution, that lobha and wrong view > can be conditioned anytime. So if indeed there is sila in the > following moment and one stops talking, even this can be known. > However you would agree that just keeping sila is not preferable to satipatthana which can arise at anytime. There is always a danger > of lobha attaching to the idea of keeping sila, and this I believe can make it equally difficult, if not more, for panna of satipatthana > to arise. Besides, the very idea of keeping sila because of fear of > inherent tendencies can be due to an attachment to self. k: As I say, dont be trap by conditions. Just because we fear there is a self to follow sila, we get all wrap up. No it should be that way. Sila can be follow if and only if we consider dhamma to condition panna. As I say sila is a reminder, it act as a consideration for wise attention, it act as a naturaly support for panna. When view in such a way, then sila can be say follow in tandem with satipatthana. Just like Buddha say do speak false speech, in the act of doing or finishing doing or before doing, panna arise, then sila is follow. But sometimes panna is weak sila is follow with pain. Sila cannot be follow without understanding the root conditions of the ten unwholesome behaviour. > I am also thinking now, about how identification wrongly with any > particular aspect of the Teachings can condition self view and > hence lead to wrong practice. k: If you do not idendification yourself what is wholesome, so can you get rid of akusala. I think it is naive to think that by learning dhamma we do not indentify. This moment of learning dhamma is already an identification. When you read Abdhidhamma do you indentify yourself with it, if not how do you practise, what is your basis of practise? the crux is we know such indenfication is not self, it act on its own by conditions and not cling to it. > > S: Yes, akusala conditions more akusala. But can akusala be > vigilant? Does kusala necessarily arise to `consider the six senses >> more' after seeing in principle, the danger of akusala? k: if one do not see the danger of akusala, there is no way zeal will arise. That is why, our sloth and topor always condition unprompted lobha and dosa. And what in fact in the ultimate sense is the `wise friend'? One's own panna cetasika! k: That is technical answer. Depends, it can be both ways > > S: There is only right or wrong effort, no question of inertia. Can > one arouse right effort by resolving to guard the senses? What are > the conditions for satipatthana? No dhamma arises without the > appropriate conditions coming together. k: You sure there is no inertia, tell me about sloth and topor then ;-). No dhamma arise without the approprate conditions, but do you wish appropriate aksuala just because we think it should let conditions run on its own. I think I have to make myself clear, there is no way one can be holy by trying to be holy. What I say is consider dhamma more and more if you can by reading the texts, that is the gist of what I am saying. Just because our panna is weak now, we sit down and let akusala rule over us. > > S: I think I understand the point you are making, and I agree about > > the difference. But then the difference is not only there, but also > > between any two moments of understanding. Such that one may repeat > to oneself that "this not mine, not I, not myself" on two separate > occasions, yet the understanding would be different. And on the > other hand, one could be saying that `all are just conditions' with > > deep understanding. In the end, there are no `magic words'. And we > *do* almost always get `fooled', this being the function > of `avijja'. ;-) k: No it is explicitly said in the sutta text. There is no way one will learn anatta just by let conditions do their job. It should be investigate, ponder upon or reflect on by this principle on conditions then it will take effect. The conditions will be understood, then the danger on seeling akusala will condition zeal to arise. Dont worry about thinking in this stage, which worldings do not think now. Our understanding is also in the thinking stage now. Even the understanding of three unwholesome root are also in the thinking stage. So dont worry about pondering over it, in fact it is beneficial to ponder over it, over its danger. No use cutting thinking because one cannot stop thinking. > S: Ken, I think it is better to remember Azita's `patience, courage and good cheer', than to try to force `reflection'. None of us have > any choice about whether or not there will be sati and panna. The > journey is difficult, but we can't hasten it. I accept your point > about `excuse', but the important thing is to "know" it, not feel > driven to *do* something about it. k: To say none of us has any choice but follow conditions is to me to say let all hell break lose. The difference about anatta is that none of us can control conditions, but it does not say that we cannot do anything about it. Or not what is the point of reading the texts. When we read the text, citta reflects, citta consider, then when this accumulated, panna will be strengthened. We have to constantly reflect, remind ourselves, if we say let conditions do their job, then we must as well dont read the text at all ;-). That is what I meant, read the text more, spend more time on it, one when one ponders, one arouse zeal, when one reflect, panna will arise on its own. Ken O 31186 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken H Definitely I will not reinvent the wheel. This three short words is the "not me, I or myself" is the most powerful psychological tools that I have know of. It cures all mental pain ;-). I have use it many time and it cures all the grief successfully and I am deeply grateful that Buddha taught it. Your goodwill method is described as the sublime abiding here and now. There are many benefits with it. Keep it up. I used it also when I was having my day surgery on removing a small lump (that is why four injections). I was cheeful, joking with the surgeon and also her assistants and emphatize with their working schedule and thank every one of them when I leave. Overall it is a wonderful experience in the surgery. At times, during the surgery, fear arise and the three little words make their wonder ;-) Ken O 31187 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to Group Hi LaVerne, --- LaVerne Lenhart wrote: > Hi. I am new to your group and I am very interested in getting started. > Is there a particular spot for a beginner?? I have studied Metaphysics > for many years. Are there any particular websites to begin???? Thanks > so much, ..... Welcome to DSG and for getting started with these good questions. As I mentioned the other day to Doret, I think that often the best way for newbies to get started here is by asking questions in a new thread under your own subject title. She has done just this and is receiving many varied and helpful replies. In the beginning, I’d suggest skipping posts that are too technical or difficult to follow, such as the Visuddhimagga ones, unless you have some abhidhamma knowledge. We all have our favourite websites. I have these links handy and I’d personally recommend any of the materials on these : http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ You’ll see there are many books by Nina Van Gorkom who contributes here. You could start with ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ and raise any questions or comments. Also, please see the posts from the archives under “New to the List” in Useful Posts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts LaVerne, we’d be interested to hear where you live and anything else you wish to share. Metta, Sarah p.s We ask everyone here to trim posts of all material, inc. yahoo blurb, not required for the answer. ========== 31188 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Hi Dharmajim, Let me join Azita in welcoming you too and saying your intro here was most inspiring. --- dharmajim wrote: > Good Friends: > I'm new here. The discussion is very helpful. I'm not quite up to > speed on a lot of the Pali terms, but I like an environment where > they are used enough that I can begin to get a feel for them. .... I’m sure you’re being modest too. It might be helpful to have the Pali glossary from the files printed out beside the computer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Also, these are handy links as I’m sure you’re aware: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html .... <...> Dj:> About two years ago, after some 30 years of practice, I decided to > try again and read the Dhammasangani (in translation, I don't know > Pali). Nyanaponika's Introduction was helpful in getting me past > initial discomforts. What amazed me was that this time I found it > beautiful, scintillating, even lyrical. I was amazed at the > meticulousness, the wealth of detail and insight. It is one of the > great monuments to human consciousness. .... You’ll be a friend of Icaro’s for life;-) [sorry, that’s a joke - it’s his favourite text too, though he reads the Pali]. I don’t know if you have the Atthasalini (translated as the ‘Expositor’) as well. It’s really useful and very reader-friendly. The PTS translation of the Sammohavinodani is the greatest gem;-) Many of us also refer a LOT here to B.Bodhi’s CMA. This is the translation of the Abhidammattha Sangaha with guide notes. I think you’d find it helpful alongside the Dhammasangani. And as an excellent intro the Abhidhamma, pls look at Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ if you haven’t already. A couple of people here are reading it at present and asking questions that arise. (It’s on the websites I just gave in my last post). .... Dj: > In some ways I think of it as similar to something like > Euclid's "Elements"; only the scope of the subject matter is much > broader and the detail is much finer. The comparison I am making > has to do with rigor and drawing out implications in a systematic > way. > > So for some of us it takes a long time for our minds to open to > Abhidhamma. If I hadn't practiced regularly for those decades I > would not have had the patience to absorb a small part of its beauty. ..... Dharmajim, some of us, like Nina, Icaro, myself and others, would be very glad if you’d share any lines you find particularly inspiring or meaningful anytime. Also if you’d care to let us know where you live or anything else,we’d be glad. I think you'll find the Visuddhimagga thread interesting too. Larry, Nina and others will be delighted if you join in this (or any other threads) with any qus or comments anytime. Metta, Sarah ===== 31189 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 0:43am Subject: Self-view - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.11 Dear Group, This is about self-view - but has a strange ending. "Then Ven. Isidatta -- having set his lodging in order and taking his bowl & robes -- left Macchikasanda. And in leaving Macchikasanda, he was gone for good and never returned. " I wonder why ... Ven. Bodhi quotes the commentary: "Neither Spk nor Spk-pt gives an explanation for his sudden departure. He may have seen the danger in fame and honour and preferred to dwell in complete anonymity." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- § 2.11. On one occasion a large number of senior monks were living near Macchikasanda in the Wild Mango Grove. Then Citta the householder [1] went to them and, on arrival, having bowed down to them, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them: "Venerable sirs, may the senior monks acquiesce to tomorrow's meal from me." The senior monks acquiesced by silence. Then Citta the householder, sensing the senior monks' acquiescence, got up from his seat and, having bowed down to them, circumambulated them -- keeping them to his right -- and left. When the night had passed, the senior monks put on their robes in the early morning and -- taking their bowls & outer robes -- went to Citta's residence. There they sat down on the appointed seats. Citta the householder went to them and, having bowed down to them, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the most senior monk: "Venerable sir, concerning the various views that arise in the world - - 'The cosmos is eternal' or 'The cosmos isn't eternal'; 'The cosmos is finite' or 'The cosmos is infinite'; 'The soul and the body are the same' or 'The soul is one thing, the body another'; 'A Tathagata exists after death' or 'A Tathagata doesn't exist after death' or 'A Tathagata both exists & doesn't exist after death' or 'A Tathagata neither exists nor doesn't exist after death'; these along with the sixty-two views mentioned in the Brahmajala [DN 1] -- when what is present do these views come into being, and when what is absent do they not come into being?" When this was said, the senior monk was silent. A second time... A third time Citta the householder asked, "Concerning the various views that arise in the world... when what is present do they come into being, and what is absent do they not come into being?" A third time the senior monk was silent. Now on that occasion Ven. Isidatta was the most junior of all the monks in that Community. Then he said to the senior monk: "Allow me, venerable sir, to answer Citta the householder's question." "Go ahead & answer it, friend Isidatta." "Now, householder, are you asking this: 'Concerning the various views that arise in the world... when what is present do they come into being, and what is absent do they not come into being?'?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Concerning the various views that arise in the world, householder... when self-identity view is present, these views come into being; when self-identity view is absent, they don't come into being." "But, venerable sir, how does self-identity view come into being?" "There is the case, householder, where an uninstructed, run-of-the- mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes apperception to be the self, or the self as possessing apperception, or apperception as in the self, or the self as in apperception. He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identity view comes into being." "And, venerable sir, how does self-identity view not come into being?" "There is the case, householder, where a well-instructed noble disciple -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... He does not assume apperception to be the self... He does not assume fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self- identity view does not come into being." "Venerable sir, where does Master Isidatta come from?" "I come from Avanti, householder." "There is, venerable sir, a clansman from Avanti named Isidatta, an unseen friend of mine, who has gone forth. Have you ever seen him?" "Yes, householder." "Where is he living now, venerable sir?" When this was said, the Venerable Isidatta was silent. "Are you my Isidatta?" "Yes, householder." "Then may Master Isidatta delight in the charming Wild Mango Grove at Macchikasanda. I will be responsible for your robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medicinal requisites." "That is admirably said, householder." Then Citta the householder -- having delighted & rejoiced in the Venerable Isidatta's words -- with his own hand served & satisfied the senior monks with choice staple & non-staple foods. When the senior monks had finished eating and had removed their hands from their bowls, they got up from their seats and left. Then the most senior monk said to the Venerable Isidatta: "It was excellent, friend Isidatta, the way that question inspired you to answer. It didn't inspire an answer in me at all. Whenever a similar question comes up again, may it inspire you to answer as you did just now." Then Ven. Isidatta -- having set his lodging in order and taking his bowl & robes -- left Macchikasanda. And in leaving Macchikasanda, he was gone for good and never returned. [SN XLI.3] Note: 1. Citta the householder was a lay non-returner who had a fondness for posing difficult questions to monks.(Thanissaro) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31190 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: Self-view - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.11 Dear Group, I found a little more on Isidatta: "1. Isidatta.-A thera. He was the son of a caravan guide at Vaddhagáma (v.l. Velugáma) in Avanti. By correspondence he became the unseen friend of Citta-gahapati of Macchikásanda. The latter once sent him a letter regarding the excellences of the Buddha, and Isidatta, being pleased with the account given of the Buddha's religion, entered the Order under Mahá-Kaccána and in due course became an arahant. Later, with Mahá-Kaccána's leave, he visited the Buddha in the Majjhimadesa and was warmly received by him (ThagA.i.238). A verse uttered by Isidatta, in response to the Buddha's enquiry regarding his welfare, is recorded in the Therágáthá (v.120). Isidatta had been a householder in the time of Vipassí Buddha and once, having seen the Buddha walking along the street and being pleased with his demeanour, he gave him an ámoda-fruit (ThagA. loc. cit.). He is, probably, identical with Amodapaliya of the Apadána (ii.447). According to the Samyutta Nikáya (iv.283-8, also AA.i.210), Isidatta was once staying with a number of senior monks at Macchikásanda in the Ambátaka grove. Citta-gahapati invited the monks to a meal. On this occasion Citta asked a question regarding the Buddha's teaching on the diversity of the elements. The chief Elder, being unable to answer, remained silent. Isidatta, though the most junior of the whole company, obtained the chief Elder's permission, and answered the question to the satisfaction of Citta. Citta likewise asked questions regarding various views, such as the infinity of the world, etc. At the end of the discourse, Citta discovered, by accident, that the Elder who had preached to him was none other than his unseen friend, Isidatta. Delighted with the discovery, he invited Isidatta to spend his time at a Macchikásanda, promising to provide him with all requisites. But that same day Isidatta left Macchikásanda and never returned. Because, says Buddhaghosa (AA.i.210), he did not wish to stay after having been recognised." http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/i_/isidatta.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > This is about self-view - but has a strange ending. "Then Ven. > Isidatta -- having set his lodging in order and taking his bowl & > robes -- left Macchikasanda. And in leaving Macchikasanda, he was > gone for good and never returned. " I wonder why ... 31191 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Philip, (James, KenO , Howard, Doret and All), I have some hesitation about writing this post, but as you’ve made similar comments a couple of times, it might be helpful: P: >”....dojo yaburi - bursting into another tradtion's dojo (practice place in martial arts) to try to prove that your way is better...”< S: Perhaps you or others also wonder why we allow or even respond to such ‘bursts’ and it’s true that any list has to be mindful of the effect on all members and the general harmony. As you point out, we may all still be ignorant worldlings, but I don’t think any of us here has any idea of a closed ‘dojo’ and just wish to share what we can from the Dhamma-Vinaya, grateful to those who have also shared their limited knowledge with us. .... P:> Nevertheless, you surely "really help" others. > For example, I think of how much radically important guidance I've > received in the 3 weeks or so since I came here. It hasn't gotten me > out of prison, but it has surely shown me that I was trying to get > out the wrong way. .... S: This is the point, I think. We can assist each other to find the right way to get out of prison, even if we’re still locked inside ourselves;-). Sometimes whilst writing to those with very different views, I learn a lot too, like in all the long discussions with Michael. Even assuming for a moment that ‘our’ understanding of Abhidhamma is correct and ‘their’ understanding and emphasis is wrong, I like to reflect on the great compassion shown by the Buddha and his disciples -- not that we can ever emulate even a speck of this, of course. ..... James posted an extract from the Mahaasaccaka Sutta with useful comments (no 31081). He prompted me to read the sutta in full and I was reflecting on this theme of sharing any knowledge we have without being deterred by any blame. Ananda tells the Buddha that ‘Saccaka the Nigantha’s son, a debater and a clever speaker regarded by many as a saint’ is coming to ‘discredit the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.’ Out of compassion, Ananda requests the Buddha to see him and speak to him. [For KenO: “Then Saccaka the Nigantha’s son went up to the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. when this courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side....”] Saccaka expresses his wrong views at length, giving his criticisms of the Triple Gem in the process. The Buddha responds with his explanations of the real meaning of ‘developed in body and developed in mind’ as James posted. [Howard, he was following Saccaka’s wording - replacing ‘developing in body’ as referring to ascetic practices as Saccaka spoke of and instead referred to insight]. The Buddha says: “Surely, Aggivessana, your words are offensive and discourteous, but still I will answer you.” .... S: Of course, there’s no rule at all that we do the same and we all just make our own judgment calls according to our very limited knowledge. At the end, Saccaka said: “It is wonderful, Master Gotama, it is marvellous how when Master Gotama is spoken to offensively again and again, assailed by discourteous courses of speech, the colour of his skin brightens and the colour of his face clears, as is to be expected of one who is accomplished and fully enlightened. I recall, Master Gotama, engaging Purana Kassapa [and many other names given later] in debate, and then he prevaricated, led the talk aside, and showed anger, hate, and bitterness. But when Master gotama is spoken to offensively again and again, assaulted by discourteous......etc [as above]”. .... S: We’ve been talking about metta and of course we all have our ‘buttons’ as Chris pointed out and any response (or lack of) depends on the usual conditions. Still, I find it helpful to reflect on these examples as a reminder for metta and patience. Did Saccaka become an arahant on the spot? No. In fact according to the commentary note he ‘did not reach any attainment or even become established in the Three Refuges.’ The Buddha ‘taught him two long suttas in order to deposit in him a mental impression (vaasanaa) coming to maturity in the future. For he foresaw that at a later time, after the Dispensation became established in Sri lanka, Saccaka would be reborn there and would attain arahantship as the great arahant, Kala Buddharakkhita Thera.’ So I think we’re all just helping to deposit mental impressions here, according to our understandings and inclinations which may bear fruit later, even if we’re scolded for our efforts now. Naturally, with greater insight, we will all help each other more wisely in future, just as Doret will do with the prisoners, her husband and others in need of assistance. Metta, Sarah ===== 31192 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Dear Sukin > Anyway recently I saw an excellent film from your country, "City of > Gods". Is it really true what they show in that movie?!! > --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately, Sukin, City of Gods is only ONE of many, many lumpem bad quarters of Rio. Reality here is much worse than showed on movie... --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I've always had bad verbal skills, so in daily life, I mix Thai, > English and Hindi. And I am embarrassed to admit that I can't even > speak my mother tongue, Punjabi. :-/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Heh!!!! Sometimes I feel tempted to carry on studies at many languages... I am trying to focusing now on Pali, Hebrew and Arabic, but only at simple reading level: full speaking of any language demands time and patience. I got primers on Hindi, Urdu and Thai, but I will only take hand on them at my intended travel to Bangkok to meet you all! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Your CDs have been shipped since last Saturday. I sent them by > registered airmail instead of Express mail, to save cost. But I > expect that you will receive them in less than two weeks. > There are a couple of surprises in the package which I hope you will > like. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It will take time! Mettaya, Ícaro 31193 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Upadhi Hi Andrew, (Nina & Ken H), I'm sure it's a busy and demanding time with your father-in-law and he's very blessed to have you and Sandra care for him at this time. Like Nina, I'd really like to encourage you to skip mails of no interest and keep up your occasional fine questions and witty challenging of Ken H when he goes that step too far (even if it's in my good company, LOL). Hope you can just keep a foot in on DSG, but in any case very best wishes to you and Sandra at this time. Metta, Sarah p.s KenH, can't you find just the right 'carrot' to keep encouraging him? ===== > > As a matter of fact, I will be taking a break from my > > various email groups for a while. Hope to catch up with you all some > > time in the future. 31194 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello Sarah, and all. > P: >?E...dojo yaburi - bursting into another tradtion's dojo (practice > place in martial arts) to try to prove that your way is better...?E lt; > > S: (snip)it's true that any list has to be mindful of the effect on > all members and the general harmony. Ph: Very peculiar behaviour on my part, that. Why would a newcomer take on the duty of policing people's behaviour here? Quite bizarre, but life is comical at times. I think it has something to do with the impact on my psyche of discovering the Abhidhamma. Perhaps "Philip" sensed that all the little ploys he has developed over the years to protect his cherished self-image were about to be stripped bare, and acted up accordingly. It reminds me of what Meister Eckhart, the Christian mystic, said comparing the process of giving up one's sense of individual self to a greater truth. He compared it to throwing a piece of wood on a fire. At first the wood crackles and pops and makes a lot of noise, then it calms down as the wood essence unites with the fire essence. Finding the Abdhidhamma thrilled me at first, but now it's got me a bit edgy, because I sense all the ways I've been seeing things were wrong understanding. Letting go of comforting concepts ain't easy, so I probably won't let go of them right away. But rather than cling to them blindly I will be holding on to them gingerly. In any case, I truly am confident that I won't be misbehaving here any more. No reason to be confident of that, I suppose, but I do regret any disharmony I caused you (and the silly thing is that I caused it to you and others here more than the people I was having a go at!) That regret - I think there is a kusala having to do with "moral shame"- will condition restrain, I believe. Also, worldy concerns are catching up with me so I won't be babbling here quite as much in the weeks to come. Yeah, right...I said that last week. :) S:> As you point out, we may all still be ignorant worldlings, but I don > think any of us here has any idea of a closed dojo?Eand just wish to > share what we can from the Dhamma-Vinaya, grateful to those who have also > shared their limited knowledge with us. Ph: Since my knowledge is more limited than anyone else here, I am relieved to read this! Did I say ignorant worldlings"? Is there nothing in between "enlightened" and "ignorant worldings?" I guess I thought James' statement about only the enlightened being able to truly liberate others was a bit paradoxical -it made me wonder what we are all doing here, since presumably we -even Nina - are not enlightened yet. But maybe "enlightened" is a word I equate incorrectly with being an arahant. Reading Nina's Paramis book this afternoon I found this from the introduction: "Those who have attained enlightenment can be the 'good friend in Dhamma' to others. They can be of much help to others, not only through words, but above all through the application of the Dhamma in life...(snip) The Ariyan who has developed direct knowedge of realities can explain the Dhamma to other more clearly than the non- ariyan and he can truly help other to develop the eightfold path leading to enlightenment." So this "ariyan" is an enlightened person, I take it. It's a term I'm not yet familiar with. I misunderstood that only the arahant would be considered enlightened. In any case, I would appreciate a STORY OVER stamp on my recent behaviour. Harmony is something I usually value greatly- maybe that's a result of having lived in Japan for so long- and I will be keeping my mouth shut to protect it. Metta, Phil 31195 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, Sukin: First of all, let us be reminded about what started this discussion in the first place. It was about whether certain situations and activities should be avoided, because these were judged as unwholesome and therefore made it difficult if not impossible to develop satipatthana. I guess that I got sidetracked, lost direction and instead was lead to discuss sila. Hope you don't mind getting lost with me.;-) > S: Zeal is not the only possible outcome of a moment of rt. > understanding. And even if it did arise, who is to say what will > follow immediately? k: this is not what I say, check the sutta text and you find many references that consideration of dhamma condition zeal ;-). Sukin: But zeal towards what? You are saying zeal to disengage from certain activities. I don't know what particular Suttas you are referring to, but my guess is that the zeal is toward the Dhamma itself. What aspect of it and on what level, study, consideration or application depends on conditions, no? > S: I think it is dangerous to characterize oneself as this or that. > > It is quite unlikely that we will know exactly. Moreover right or > wrong, there is never any reason to follow any prescribed path or > even have any inclination to prefer one over the other, I think. > Btw, what are these four kinds of undertaking? Any Suttas? k: No it is not dangerous because one know one weaknesses. It is more dangerous not to know one weaknesses or blemishes. Sukin: But you were talking about `belonging to the third kind of undertaking'? This is different, no? Recently there was a discussion about the Buddha as being the only person able to `measure' people, I think it applies to each person measuring himself too, wouldn't you think so? Especially, knowing that we are puthujanas? K: Even though we can say such clinging of weaknesses or blemishes will pertain to a self, to me it is not. Presently I give you two sutta references, MN 45 - Culadhammasamadana Sutta and MN 46 – Mahaculadhammasamadana Sutta on the four undertakings, there are more just that I could not find it now. Sukin: I quickly read through the Culadhammasamadana Sutta, my impression is that none of the four types referred to, involved practicing satipatthana. And if you are comparing the first type of individual with what I am professing, then you are wrong. I do not say "go and enjoy yourself". But "do what you do, but also develop wisdom". And this development of wisdom does include among other things, knowledge of kusala and akusala. So there *is* intellectual knowledge of the harm of akusala and the benefit of kusala. However, how and when panna is conditioned, you and I can't know. A person may for an instant lie (breaking the precept), but who knows, the next moment hiri and ottappa may arise to such a level that deep insight can occur!! So in fact breaking the precept was decisive support condition for that deep insight!! What if he had been overly concerned about keeping sila, would that have been the natural decisive support condition? > S: A limit for what? Can we control conditions? What is sila if > not `restraint' at the moment when the opportunity arises? Can we > carry sila over to consequent moments? What would this imply? > Beside there can be restraint with a sense of self, or there can be > satipatthana of that moment. And when satipatthana does arise, then > the sila is already perfect. K: Does it mean that since we cannot control conditions and we let all hell break lose. Sukin: NO, Ken. A person who understands dhamma enough may indulge in sense pleasures from time to time, but it is very unlikely that `hell can break lose'. And even if it did, it would have been against his better judgement, and his accumulated panna does not decrease. So anytime following this, there can be kusala reflection and satipatthana. No problem at all. K: Precepts are limits to remind us. It is up to our panna or wise attention of dhamma to follow it. It we think hey who cares about such precepts then Buddha in the first place do not have it at all ;-). In the meantime when satipatthana is yet perfected, intellectual understanding of it is being important. Buddha never say we should follow sila till perfection for wordlings because he knows it is not possible for one's that has a weak panna. Sukin: Seeing the value of precept would be an instance of panna of a certain level, saying,"Who cares about such precepts" is foolishness. Did I say otherwise? > S: And Samatha, Dana and Sila can't be satipatthana either, so > what? Panna cannot know itself or the accompanying cetasikas, but in the following moment anything can be known. During speech anything can be the object of satipatthana, the `intention', or `speech > intimation', or `dosa' or `moha' or `sound'. Yes akusala can't be > kusala and satipatthana is only kusala. But anything can be natural > decisive support condition for satipatthana in the moment that > follows, as you indicate below. K: Sila is not saitpatthana but it is kusala, do you prefer in akusala behaviour that conditioned tendecies or ... Sukin: I prefer straightening my views and risk going to hell a few times even, than to aim for good rebirth without any right view. k: As I say, dont be trap by conditions. Just because we fear there is a self to follow sila, we get all wrap up. No it should be that way. Sila can be follow if and only if we consider dhamma to condition panna. As I say sila is a reminder, it act as a consideration for wise attention, it act as a naturaly support for panna. When view in such a way, then sila can be say follow in tandem with satipatthana. Just like Buddha say do speak false speech, in the act of doing or finishing doing or before doing, panna arise, then sila is follow. But sometimes panna is weak sila is follow with pain. Sila cannot be follow without understanding the root conditions of the ten unwholesome behaviour. Sukin: Yes sila can be object of wise reflection, and all kinds of kusala are helpful. And yes, sila can be practiced in tandem with satipatthana and they support one another. But you are saying to the effect, that if one were to be following the Buddha's teachings, then one must try to keep sila even if it meant suppression. Would that really be following the Buddha's teachings, especially when we believe in satipatthana? > I am also thinking now, about how identification wrongly with any > particular aspect of the Teachings can condition self view and > hence lead to wrong practice. k: If you do not idendification yourself what is wholesome, so can you get rid of akusala. I think it is naive to think that by learning dhamma we do not indentify. This moment of learning dhamma is already an identification. When you read Abdhidhamma do you indentify yourself with it, if not how do you practise, what is your basis of practise? the crux is we know such indenfication is not self, it act on its own by conditions and not cling to it. Sukin: Firstly, there is not always "self-reference" when considering dhamma. There will be many moments when one does it, and like you said, this can be known as not-self. Secondly, I was talking about `wrong identification', and here I meant, like thinking in terms of a particular dhamma, that one should develop say particularly more patience, or more metta, or trying to figure out what one's caritta for example is. This is encouraging of self view and conditions practices that are wrong. But of course, even this can be seen as conditioned, like your insistence on `sila' ;-). > > S: Yes, akusala conditions more akusala. But can akusala be > vigilant? Does kusala necessarily arise to `consider the six senses >> more' after seeing in principle, the danger of akusala? k: if one do not see the danger of akusala, there is no way zeal will arise. That is why, our sloth and topor always condition unprompted lobha and dosa. Sukin: I agree, and thanks for this explanation. ;-) > S: There is only right or wrong effort, no question of inertia. Can > one arouse right effort by resolving to guard the senses? What are > the conditions for satipatthana? No dhamma arises without the > appropriate conditions coming together. k: You sure there is no inertia, tell me about sloth and topor then ;-). Sukin: OK, so you mean this. K: No dhamma arise without the approprate conditions, but do you wish appropriate aksuala just because we think it should let conditions run on its own. I think I have to make myself clear, there is no way one can be holy by trying to be holy. What I say is consider dhamma more and more if you can by reading the texts, that is the gist of what I am saying. Just because our panna is weak now, we sit down and let akusala rule over us. Sukin: I may be misunderstanding you Ken, but I think you are leaning toward seeing a `person as walking a path'. Which is why you presuppose panna or lack of and therefore you are prescribing certain activities, here, `reading dhamma books' as against other things. I am trying to show you that reading the dhamma, understanding it, indulging in sense pleasures are all conditioned activities and there is `no one' who does those things, so no one who makes any choice to do anything else. Sense pleasure can as much be an object of insight as anything else. To think otherwise is limiting the scope of satipatthana and makes it even harder to develop, and worse, can condition wrong view too. > S: I think I understand the point you are making, and I agree about > > the difference. But then the difference is not only there, but also > > between any two moments of understanding. Such that one may repeat > to oneself that "this not mine, not I, not myself" on two separate > occasions, yet the understanding would be different. And on the > other hand, one could be saying that `all are just conditions' with > > deep understanding. In the end, there are no `magic words'. And we > *do* almost always get `fooled', this being the function > of `avijja'. ;-) k: No it is explicitly said in the sutta text. There is no way one will learn anatta just by let conditions do their job. It should be investigate, ponder upon or reflect on by this principle on conditions then it will take effect. Sukin: Of course, by conditions ;-). K: The conditions will be understood, then the danger on seeling akusala will condition zeal to arise. Dont worry about thinking in this stage, which worldings do not think now. Our understanding is also in the thinking stage now. Even the understanding of three unwholesome root are also in the thinking stage. So dont worry about pondering over it, in fact it is beneficial to ponder over it, over its danger. No use cutting thinking because one cannot stop thinking. Sukin: Agree that when the conditions are right, then the appropriate level of panna will arise to do its job. > S: Ken, I think it is better to remember Azita's `patience, courage and good cheer', than to try to force `reflection'. None of us have > any choice about whether or not there will be sati and panna. The > journey is difficult, but we can't hasten it. I accept your point > about `excuse', but the important thing is to "know" it, not feel > driven to *do* something about it. k: To say none of us has any choice but follow conditions is to me to say let all hell break lose. The difference about anatta is that none of us can control conditions, but it does not say that we cannot do anything about it. Or not what is the point of reading the texts. When we read the text, citta reflects, citta consider, then when this accumulated, panna will be strengthened. We have to constantly reflect, remind ourselves, if we say let conditions do their job, then we must as well dont read the text at all ;-). That is what I meant, read the text more, spend more time on it, one when one ponders, one arouse zeal, when one reflect, panna will arise on its own. Sukin: Are you perhaps confusing your own ability to do these things naturally, with what needs to be done? Whew! another long one. I didn't even go through your post first, but read it as I responded. To everyone else, I apologize for writing such long posts. Hope it doesn't condition any akusala. Metta, Sukin. Ps: Ken, I don't know how to do it, but perhaps you could shorten this?!! 31196 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear James, > > You are absolutely right about not helping others until I have liberated > myself as long as you are talking about personally teaching others. I do not > teach. No, I actually wasn't talking about teaching, I was talking about spending too much time for the benefit of others at the sake of your own benefit. I am having some computer problems and I am writing this away from my printed suttas, but I will relate one story that is found in a sutta. After the Buddha had announced that he was going to pass away into Parinibbana in three months time, his Sangha of monks were very upset. They stayed by his side almost continually, looked after his needs, and gave him offerings of flowers and the such. However, there was one monk who didn't stay by the Buddha's side at all; he stayed by himself, meditating very earnestly, because he wanted to reach Nibbana before the Buddha passed away. The other monks brought this monk before the Buddha (sorry, I can't remember names ;-) and told the Buddha that this monk was being selfish and didn't care about the Buddha because he didn't stay with the Buddha during his final days. This monk explained his reason and the Buddha declared that the monk who was working earnestly toward his Enlightenment was actually honoring him more than all of the other monks who were hanging around him continually and meeting his personal needs. Upon hearing this, the 'selfish' monk became Enlightened. I think the point of this story as it relates to you is apparent. I was not speaking to your level or skill as a Buddhist, I was speaking to what is important to do and what is not. Metta, James 31197 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:24am Subject: Computer Problems--Again! ;-)) Hi All, Well, it seems I have some bad computer kamma! ;-)) The most recent repair of my computer left a small part loose inside the computer. Upon moving the computer today, that part fell against the fan and broke it!! So now I have to get my laptop fixed again. I will be without Internet access for a few days. Due to the number of posts in this group, I probably won't respond to any posts that are posted while I am away. I will announce when I will come back again. Metta, James 31198 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin First of all, I am not saying anything about you. So dont get too excited okay ;-). > Sukin: First of all, let us be reminded about what started this > discussion in the first place. It was about whether certain > situations and activities should be avoided, because these were > judged as unwholesome and therefore made it difficult if not > impossible to develop satipatthana. I guess that I got sidetracked, > lost direction and instead was lead to discuss sila. Hope you don't > mind getting lost with me.;-) k: Dont worry, I always lost in the world of samasara, welcome to the club. No entrance fee needed. > Sukin: But zeal towards what? You are saying zeal to disengage from > certain activities. I don't know what particular Suttas you are > referring to, but my guess is that the zeal is toward the Dhamma > itself. What aspect of it and on what level, study, consideration > or application depends on conditions, no? k: there is no level or whatever study, zeal is just a cetasikas that propel one to study the dhamma. Nothing insidious except though zeal can be akusala also. > > Sukin: But you were talking about `belonging to the third kind of > undertaking'? This is different, no? Recently there was a > discussion about the Buddha as being the only person able to `measure' people, I think it applies to each person measuring himself too, wouldn't you think so? Especially, knowing that we are puthujanas? And if you are comparing the first type of individual with what I am professing, then you are wrong. I do not > say "go and enjoy yourself". k: Ai yah Sukin, it is how I characterize myself, I am not characterizing anyone (what for anyway, I dont own their cittas). It is how I reflect on myself that I have lots of fault/blemishes and what I understake will be painful most of the time due to my weak panna - dont get excited ;-). > However, how and when panna is conditioned, you and I can't know. A person may for an instant lie (breaking the precept), but who knows, the next moment hiri and ottappa may arise to such a level that deep > insight can occur!! So in fact breaking the precept was decisive > support condition for that deep insight!! What if he had been > overly concerned about keeping sila, would that have been the natural decisive support condition? k: dont count on such things really Sukin. That is dangerous. I never bank myself on satipatthana to arise during akusala moments, that will be very difficult. IF you have it, that good. If not I think is best to avoid akusala actions if we are conditioned to act. > > Sukin: NO, Ken. A person who understands dhamma enough may indulge > in sense pleasures from time to time, but it is very unlikely > that `hell can break lose'. K: NO Sukin, that is not what Buddha preach. All is burning - remember that. If one think one can indugle in sensual pleasure because one understand dhamma - that is full of conceit ;-). S: And even if it did, it would have been against his better judgement, and his accumulated panna does not decrease. So anytime following this, there can be kusala reflectio> and satipatthana. No problem at all. K: You forget the other equation, tendecies also accumulated. And that is problem. > Sukin: Seeing the value of precept would be an instance of panna of > > a certain level, saying,"Who cares about such precepts" is > foolishness. Did I say otherwise? K: So what is the stand, do you think precepts important or not important. Is it a limit or not a limit. > Sukin: I prefer straightening my views and risk going to hell a few > times even, than to aim for good rebirth without any right view. K: There is nothing wrong about your view neither did I preach a new view. I just ask you to consider dhamma more. Ponder or reflect more on it, if you have time. I just asking you to be more alert on akusala cittas. Does that amount to a new view? S: But you are saying to the effect, that if one were to be following the Buddha's teachings, then one must try to keep sila even if it meant suppression. K: There is no way to suppress akusala behaviour without panna. > Sukin: Are you perhaps confusing your own ability to do these > things naturally, with what needs to be done? k: No. There is no way a self effort can get rid of not self (i did explain this in another list ;-) ). Just like Buddha say if form is self, then it would not lead to afflictions. > Ps: Ken, I don't know how to do it, but perhaps you could shorten > this?!! K: Yoi Sukin. No way, we are both long winders ;-). Dont worry it is only between us, forget the rest of the people out there. Is our personal Chess game. But it is getting shorter though! Ken O 31199 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:27am Subject: RE: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Andy and Doret A:> why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it > conceivable that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping others might be connected with our own progress? k: Definitely if we can do both that is the best ;-). But I always advocate taking of one needs first, for example, if I need to take care of someone that is sick, then I need to ensure myself healthy, full of zeal or not if I fall sick, it make matter worse. D: I have been wavering between continuing my magazine and assisting others, on one hand, and leading a more contemplative life, on the other hand. The first is on behalf of others; the second is what I really want to do for myself. K: Doret, actually you are doing contemplative life just that you do not realise it. When one do things for the sake of others, that is metta, or we called it another way sublime abiding here and now ;-). So cheer up, you are actually practising dhamma just that you have not see it. Practising dhamma is every moment and not trying to be holy. Listening to a phone, talking to your subscribers can be act of practising of dhamma. Dont need to find it elsewhere, it is right inside you, in front of your door step ;-). D: I have been told that Buddha did not advise actually entering the social struggle, e.g. against the death penalty, against war, etc. Is it true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because they focus their attention only inward on liberation? k: Buddha is not interested in politics etc because they are ever changing due to different culture or society, most importantly it is conditioned by the three unwholesome roots. He has to preach something that is universal, that can withstand time and space, that can be applicable to all ways of life, he preach principles in getting rid of unwholesome roots. If everyone follow his principles, then the world is very a peaceful world. Buddha has try to stop war for three times but fulfile because the world will go on in their own ways as human are still estrangled by the three unwholesome roots. When one follow the principles, one tends to become a good citizen, one tend to be compassion to help others, one tend to contribute to the society if one can, that is what I called social engagement in smaller sense ;-). It is not the usual style for Buddhists to tell others or banging loudly to others that they are doing good things, so that is why a lot of people taught we are not socially engaged. That is okay ;-). There are many such small contributors including you ;-) Three cheers for them!!! Ken O p.s. There is no need to justify to others we are socially engaged bc that is conceit.