31400 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/16/04 10:09:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Forget about the name. Is there a complex external physical object? > > Larry > ============================= There is not - at least not in my belief system. But even if there were, there would be know way of knowing it, for all that is experienced is experience itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31401 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:07pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 3/16/04 3:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is the Ch'an predecessor to Soto Zen "just sitting" meditation,and > has recently been popularized by Ven Sheng-Yen. You might find material on it > if you do a web search for him, or you can get a copy of his book "Hoofprints > of the Ox". > --------------------------------------------------------- James: Thanks for the info. I was hoping for one of your beautiful explanations but I guess I have no such luck. ;-)) I don't have that book and I doubt that I can get it here in Cairo. I did a search on Ven Sheng-Ven and I found a lot about his biography but nothing about his method. Oh well. I will search again later when I have more time. My computer is still being repaired! Lord help me! ;-)) > Also, where can > > > I find the Anupada Sutta? I can't find it online but if you tell me > > the collection reference I can find it in my printed copies. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is in the MN collection, if you own that. In any case, it is > available at the web site http://www.vipassana.info/111-anupada- e.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------- James: Thanks. Yea I do own that collection but I haven't read the whole thing yet. I am slowing working my way through all the Nikayas. From this online version it states that Sariputta is the only one who has been able to do this method: combining jhana and vipassana: "Bhikkhus, saying it rightly, it is Saariputta that has mastered and completed the noble ones' virtues, mastered and completed the noble ones' concentration, mastered and completed the noble ones' perception, mastered and completed the noble ones' release. Sayng it rightly it is only Saariputta that has mastered and completed the noble ones' virtues, concentration, wisdom and release." Hmmm...if only Sariputta has been able to do this method I don't hold out too much faith that I might be able to also! ;-)) But, thanks for the information. Again, I think that this sutta does clearly show that there are two methods of meditation and that only the exceptionally rare individual is able to combine them with any success. Metta, James 31402 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And I didn't say it. Please reread what I did say - with regard to formal and informal meditation - a bit more carefully. > ------------------------------------------------ k: Howard you said that "formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which there is a restriction of the scope of attention>> I thought this is what you meant. If not please kindly elaborate on what you meant. Call it soup for the soul ;-). H: Ken, putting it simply: We are not close on this matter. k: the question is since one can do it anytime, why a need to do it a more *formal*. Soemtimes I wonder, is it because we want to gain something out of it, isn't this clinging, or we want to experience something out of it, to feel comfortable, to feel calm, to feel more attuned, isnt this also clinging. To me isn't it a waste, that the rest of our waking hours we are not doing it. If one can transfer our meditaion to everyday life, isn't it wonderful. Ken O 31403 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That sounds very good to me, Nina. There is one more thing that might > be helpful: If anyone has a full version of Adobe Acrobat - I only have the > free 6.0 Reader - then that person would have the capability of copying and > pasting from the PDF of Bhikkhu Bodhi's paper. Posting portions of that paper > would be helpful to the discussion. Or, if anyone here has software to convert > the PDF paper to MS word, then perhaps those who wish to participate in the D.O. > discussion could share the Word document. > --------------------------------------------- > James: I have the full version of Adobe Acrobat but PDF documents cannot be copied and pasted into either HTML or Word. PDF documents are somewhat like a 'picture' of the document and they don't contain the data underlying the words for direct coversion. Text documents can be 'converted' into PDF but not the other way around. PDF documents are created because they don't contain as much data as text documents and are therefore easier to transfer over the Internet and by e-mail. Metta, James 31404 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Larry Hmmm I dont think ignorance is perception, they perform different functions. Ignorance is not memory. We can say conventional perception is partly perform memory as it marks an object. Perception can be also good. It is ignorance that blind us that made us perceive in such a way and not perception that make us blind. In the case of DO, it is ignorance, latency and accumulations that affect the perception of a javana citta. It is also these three musketeers in the DO, with the arisen of a citta that takes on an object that make us feel in or that in the javana process. Whether perception play a role, in the way of conventional human logic we can say perception (together with accumlations and latency) that condition our feelings in reaction to such and such situation. Conversely, feeling can also makes in human logic also make us perceive this way or tha way. Hence to me, I have not read that perception condition feelings because when all the cetasikas arise together with a citta, it is like all spices flavour mixed up in a soup. Difficult to say which is the condition factor of which. However definitely it is contact that is the leader of the cetasikas that meet the object. Feeling can also be very prominent when it becomes the faculty condition of dhamma. Other than that, I leave it as ignorance...contact condition either feelings or perceptions. Ken o 31405 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi James and Howard (and Philip), James wrote to Howard: ------------ > I find this post to be an excellent explanation (much better than my last 'dismayed' post to Sarah...I just can't help it! LOL! I am genuinely dismayed by some of the things I read in this group. > ----------------------- If anything I write is contrary to the Theravada texts – and I'm sure it is quite often -- then please tell me, I would like to know. But if it is wrong, only according to later teachings (including your ESP), I really don't care -- life is too short to be learning alternative teachings. ---------------------- J: > I don't know if I should laugh or cry at the absurdity! ;-)) It is hard to respond in a way that takes such positions seriously. > --------------------- You may be angry about my `dogs and jackals' post. I was careful not to label some of us more `animal-like' than others. That would be absurd and totally inconsistent with the commentary I was quoting. As I understand, ordinary human consciousness is no different from animal consciousness: Only high degrees of kusala, such as jhana or satipatthana, are considered superior to the consciousness of `dogs and jackals.' (Corrections welcome.) ------------------------ J: > Anyway, glad that you are around to do that. ;-)) Thanks again. Keep up the good work! ;-)) -------------- The `good work' includes countering any claim that `no-self' means `no control' doesn't it? I can't criticise; I feel compelled to counter the opposite view. (Philip, I was the self-appointed dsg policeman long before you arrived:-) ) I shouldn't become angry when you ridicule the Commentaries. I shouldn't become angry at anything anyone says or does. We are the way we are by conditions (there is no control). You are not going to become enlightened in this lifetime -- nor am I. Nor will any of us have the amount of `dust in our eyes' greatly reduced. It doesn't work that way: right understanding is accumulated in the same way an adze handle is worn away -- imperceptibly. The next time we are born as humans, we will be just as we were this time around – and the next time, and the next time . . .. We will learn the same lessons (hopefully), only to forget them every time we grow old and die. The beauty of it all is that there is no `you, me, us or them,' there are only dhammas; and all dhammas are anicca, without self. Kind regards, Ken H 31406 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:49am Subject: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Dear Group, In order to begin the study of The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its Commentaries. (Trans.from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi) perhaps some parts can be posted for discussion? Here is the initial part of the Introduction - INTRODUCTION: Dependent Arising In the Theravada Buddhist tradition the Mahaanidaana Sutta is regarded as one of the profoundest discourses spoken by the Buddha. Its pri?cipal theme is paticcasamuppaada, "dependent arising," and that immediately alerts us to its importance. For the Pali Canon makes it quite plain that dependent arising is not merely one strand of doctrine among others, but the radical insight at the heart of the Buddha's teaching, the insight from which everything else unfolds. For the Buddha himself, during his period of struggle for enlightenment, dependent arising came as the astonishing, eye-opening discovery that ended his groping in the dark: `"Arising, arising' - thus bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose in me vision, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and light" (S.XII,65; ii,105). A series of suttas shows the same discovery to be the essence of each Buddha's attainment of enlightenment (S.XIII, 4-10). Once enlightened, the mission of a Tathaagata, a Perfect One, is to proclaim dependent arising to the world (S.XII,20; ii, 25-26). So often does the Buddha do this, in discourse after discourse, that dependent arising soon becomes regarded as the quintessence of his teaching. When the arahat Assaji was asked to state the Master's message as concisely as possible, he said it was the doctrine that phenomena arise and cease through causes (Vin. I, 40). With a single sentence the Buddha dispels all doubt about the correctness of this summary: "He who sees dependent arising sees the Dhamma, he who sees the Dhamma sees dependent arising" (M.28; I, 191). The reason dependent arising is assigned so much weight lies in two essential contributions it makes to the teaching. First, it provides the teaching with its primary ontological principle, its key for understanding the nature of being. Second, it provides the framework that guides its programme for deliverance, a causal account of the origination and cessation of suffering. These two contributions, though separable in thought, come together in the thesis that makes the Buddha's teaching a "doctrine of awakening": that suffering ultimately arises due to ignorance about the nature of being and ceases through wisdom, direct understanding of the nature of being. The ontological principle contributed by dependent arising is, as its name suggests, the arising of phenomena in dependence on conditions. At a stroke this principle disposes of the notion of static self- contained entities and shows that the "texture" of being is through and through relational. Whatever comes into being originates through conditions, stands with the support of conditions, and ceases when its conditions cease. But dependent arising teaches something more rigorous than a simple assertion of general conditionality. What it teaches is *specific conditionality* (idappaccayataa), the arising of phenomena in dependence on specific conditions. This is an important point often overlooked in standard accounts of the doctrine. Specific conditionality correlates phenomena in so far as they belong to types. It holds that phenomena of a given type originate only through the conditions appropriate to that type, never in the absence of those conditions, never through the conditions appropriate to some other type. Thus dependent arising, as a teaching of specific conditionality, deals primarily with structures. It treats phenomena, not in terms of their isolated connections, but in terms of their patterns - recurrent patterns that exhibit the invariableness of law. "Bhikkhus, what is dependent arising? "With birth as condition aging and death come to be" - whether Tathaagatas arise or not, that element stands, that structuredness of phenomena, that fixed determination of phenomena, specific conditionality. That a Tathaagata awakens to and comprehends. Having awakened to it and comprehended it, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, reveals it, analyzes it, and clarifies it, saying: "See, bhikkhus, with birth as condition aging and death come to be." The reality in that, the undelusiveness, invariability, specific conditionality - this, bhikkhus, is called dependent arising." (S.XII,20; ii,25-6) The basic formula for dependent arising appears in the suttas countless times: "When there is this, that comes to be: with the arising of this, that arises. When this is absent, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases." [1] This gives the principle in the abstract, stripped of any reference to a content; But the Buddha is not interested in abstract formulas devoid of content; for him content is all-important. His teaching is concerned with a problem - the problem of suffering (dukkha) - and with the task of bringing suffering to an end. Dependent arising is introduced because it is relevant to these concerns, indeed not merely relevant but indispensable. It defines the framework needed to understand the problem and also indicates the approach that must be taken if that problem is to be resolved. The suffering with which the Buddha's teaching is concerned has a far deeper meaning than personal unhappiness, discontent, or psychological stress. It includes these, but it goes beyond. The problem in its fullest measure is existential suffering, the suffering of bondage to the round of repeated birth and death. The round, the Buddha teaches, has been turning without beginning, and as long as it turns it inevitably brings "aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair." To gain deliverance from suffering, therefore, requires more than relief from its transient individual manifestations. It requires nothing short of total liberation from the round." [1] Imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti; imass' uppaadaa ida.m uppajjati. Imasmi.m asati ida.m na hoti; imassa nirodhaa ida.m nirujjhati (e.g. S.XII, 21; ii,28) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 31407 From: Eznir Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Dear Howard & Sarah My comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > > ================================ > In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, phenomena > are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no objects. > There is a mutaual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of > subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience continued. > > With metta, > Howard ========================= eznir: An intuition comes close to describing this "momentary lose of sense of self". eznir 31408 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Dear Group, Very often when discussing on dsg the joyful and sad happenings in daily life, someone will advise that we should not get caught up in "the stories" - that there are only dhammas arising and falling away. But in this excerpt, BB says "the Buddha is not interested in abstract formulas devoid of content; for him content is all- important." What is 'content' if it is not the stories, populated by things, people, animals, experiences? Is this a contradiction, or am I on the wrong track? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > In order to begin the study of The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its > Commentaries. (Trans.from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi) perhaps some > parts can be posted for discussion? Here is the initial part of the > Introduction - > > INTRODUCTION: Dependent Arising 31409 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James and Howard (and Philip), > > James wrote to Howard: > ------------ > > I find this post to be an excellent explanation (much better than > my last 'dismayed' post to Sarah...I just can't help it! LOL! I am > genuinely dismayed by some of the things I read in this group. > > ----------------------- > > If anything I write is contrary to the Theravada texts – and I'm > sure it is quite often -- then please tell me, I would like to > know. But if it is wrong, only according to later teachings > (including your ESP), I really don't care -- life is too short to be > learning alternative teachings. James: Huh?? I wasn't even writing about you; I was writing about Sarah asking why paying attention to the breath is important. I thought that was a really crazy question. It is like there is some sort of tunnel vision going on here. What does my ESP have to do with anything?? I think I do have some ESP ability, but so what. It doesn't mean a thing...not a single thing. ESP isn't wisdom. I didn't have anything to say about your post because you were quoting a commentary. If the commentary says that mindfulness of walking is the same with animals, okay. I don't have a problem with that. We are not really that far from animals...in a biological, evolutionary, or Buddhist sense. I think you took my post wrong and have gone on the attack here. You wouldn't have done that if you had ESP like I do!! LOL! Metta, James 31410 From: Eznir Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Nina, Please see below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > N: This made me think of my father who grumbles and complains on account of > what is in his imagination. As I mentioned here already, a friend spoke > about her father who was actually , always disparaging. But > her mother said: your father is your teacher, do not forget. > And can you ad about positive feelings? You mean clinging? I remember now a > sutta: lobha is our teacher, we always follow what achariya says. Or: it is > one's coresident pupil, it always follows us, wherever we go. > We need more examples from daily life, Dhamma is not theory. On another list > I had made an interpretation of a Pali text which was approved of. I was > mighty pleased, but I could not help laughing at my conceit and lobha. In > mockery I patted my back. I know, also laughing is lobha. Because of > listening one can notice it. Formerly I would not even know about it. But > this is interesting: see how piti (joy, enthusiasm or zest) and somanassa > (pleasant feeling) surge up so strongly and even before we realize it. ******************* eznir: Not only clinging; any positive feeling. Particularly this polarization of our views to either of these two directions positive and negative. ******************* > Uncontrollably. But I have to use this term carefully. I know, sati and > panna can do their work. As Rob K wrote: < as an object of insight any > moment is perfect because each moment is conditioned to be that way.> ******************** eznir: Each moment impels one to do something about our object of consciousness at that moment. The earlier examples of someone scolding or complementing, is gross in nature. It obviously evokes the consciousness to say or do something in return. As ones mindfulness improves one becomes more and more sensitive to things less and less gross in nature. Here one has to remain unbiased and let sati and panna do the work as you say. > > I heard on tape that dosa can harm others, it is more harmful, and that > lobha may not be so harmful to others but harder to eradicate. I could not > trace the sutta. > Nina. eznir 31411 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Swee Boon According to Dispeller of Delusion, foulness of the body and 32 parts of the body, since the subject is gross, one can only attain it to 1st jhana level or the stream entrant level. As for method of the elements [actually this can be a continuation subject after the 32 parts see Visud on Nutriments and Elements Chapter XI], again in Dispeller of Delusion para 1171 - << then as he lays of the material aggregate, the immaterial aggregate become evident to him though the medium of the sense bases and doors. The material and immaterial, being laid hold of thus, are the pentad of aggregates, the pentad of aggregates is te twelve sense bases; the twelve sens bases become the 18 elements and so by mean of the aggregates, bases and elements, by making them into two parts like one who split a twin palm, he defines material-immateriality. After inquiring 'this mentality - materiality is not produced without causes, without conditions; it is produced with causes, with conditions. But what is its caused; what is its conditions?' he defines its condition thus: 'With ignorance as condition, craving as condition, kamma as condition, nutriment as condition' and he removes doubt about the three periods of time [of time thus]: 'In the past also they are conditions and states conditionaly arisen and in the future, and now also, they are conditions and states conditionally arisen. Beyond that there is no being or person. It is only a mere heap of formations. But this insight which discerns the formations is called "fulled understanding of the known" A bhikkhu who is established in the discernment of formations thus, has sent down his roots into the Ten-Powered One's dispensation and has obtained a foothold. He is a Lesser Stream Enterer (cula - sotapanna) of assured identity. But on obtaining such climate, person, food and hearing the Law as are suitable, in one sitting, in one sumpreme session, he attains Arahatship by applying the three characteristics and comprehending the formations with succession of insight. This is the conclusion, as far as Arahatship, for the bhikkhu who does his laying to heart by way of elements>> Visud also explain mental - material also clearly - under purification of view Chapter XVIII then on para 1384 < Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi Christine Content (in this case I call it dhamma content) in Buddhist context is usually about cittas, cetasikas, six sense, bases, elements, aggregates, the three characterisitcs etc. Formula are those like DO or sense process or mind door process. other contents like conventional description like animals, things etc are used for the sake of simplicity of teaching and also metaphor like animals, things are used for the sake of explaining formuales of dhamma content. There is no contradiction as far as I am know. Others may have other views ;-). Ken O 31413 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta: To Nina Dear Phil, Nina and all How are you? Phil asked: "I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.")" The Pali term in the first quote is "Pajaanaati" and simply means "to know". The knowers of abhidhamma regard it as the action of the mind. On the other hand, the Pali term in the second quote is "Sampajaanakaarii" where "sampajaana" as a synonym of "paññaa" means wisdom. THus, sampajaanakaarii would mean someone who is wise / prudent. Phil was also interested to know the significance of the following quote: "Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..."" The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati". We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! The main verb under consideration is "anupassii" from "Kaayaanupassii". Thus, "anupassii" means "someone who observes" and the verb "anupassati, to observe" is the action of the mind. In passing, practitioners who observe their bodily postures are pure practitioners of vipassanaa (see the Pali term "Kaayaanupassii"), and can attain near-jhaana samaadhi (upacaarasamaadhi) at the maximum which is adequate for attainment of any path insight (maggañaa.na) from Sotaapanna level through to the Arahant level. Near-jhaana samaadhi is just before the First Ruupaavacara Jhaana, and thus we know for sure that the Buddha in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam clearly taught how to attain the Arahant awakening without first having Samatha Jhaanas (Ruupaavacara Jhaanas). It is a pity that some people persist in their misguided narrow views on the roles of worldly Jhaanas (Samatha Jhaanas) without making genuine efforts to understand Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam as the Buddha's teachings on purely Vipassanaa practice. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hello all I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of the satipatthana sutta. I'll be reading the archive posts on it, but in the meantime there is a question I'd like to ask you. I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.") Do you think there is an important distinction here? Is it just that the latter is intransitive? (doesn't take an object.) Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..." that appears repeatedly *after* references to "discern" or "makes himself alert." Do you think the "in this way" suggests that "remains focussed internally" is a *result* of discerning and making oneself alert, or is "remains focussed internally" just another phrase that means the same thing as "discern" and "makes himself fully alert." I suppose "discern" is a momentary rising of awareness, and "makes himself alert" is somehow more intentional and "remains focussed internally" is somehow more sustained. That's the way it sounds to this beginner, anyways. I guess I should compare more than one translation, the way I do with the Dhammapada, but for the time being I am only using the translation available at access to insight. Thanks in advance for any guidance here. Metta, Phil 31414 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack > jack: First, because the Buddha suggested it. k: The Buddha also suggested a lot of other means, Like eye and form and eye consciouness arise. J: Second because it is too difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual understanding of, for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of everyday life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding of it. k: If you really want to learn Breathing sutta - you should go to a seluded place. In the Visud, this meditation --- is not easy to develop wihtout leaving the neighbourhood of villages, which resound with the noises of women, men, elephants, horses (should be vehicle now ;-)) etc. However got the requisite first, one must be of virtue ( I am not saying you are not) before doing it. I introduce you a method, one does not need to fulfil the prerequiste or find a seluded place. I dont think we can dont see objects. Anatta even though intellectually understand, can also be known right here and right now. When we think we are distracted by daily events, it is because we did not applied what we learn from the suttas. Even walking to the toilet when we take a break from work or eating during lunch are all moments of practising the six senses. Even at home, while talking to your family members, while being pester by them are all moments of practise. For eg, when sometimes when panna arise, I notice that my daughter are just visible rupas, hardness and sound, or not mine, other times it is full of attachment. Its ok, panna grows on its own pace, no hurry. These are little practise which i called meditation. It is not hard, it is because we lack doing it here and now (ie consider dhamma) ;-) Buddha promote restraint of the six sense that is not just focusing on meditation. Buddha promote it because he knows as long as one is alert, there is no escape from it. Do you prefer the dispassion to be experience right here and now or dipassion to be experience latter. Why waste all that waking moments? J: Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it is of great fruit and great benefit. When mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it fulfills the four foundations of mindfulness. k: Mindfulness is not just confine to Breathing also. It can be any five aggregates, so any mindfullness of the five aggregates are of great fruits. For eg See Mindfullness of the Body sutta. J: I was reading one of my favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of Non-Attachment and found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only perception that > is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. Thought > distorts reality and reality cannot be reached through thought. k: I wrote to Larry it is not perception that blinds us. Please look at the Dependent Origination, it is ignorance that blinds us. If he saying that paramattha as reality, then I would agree that thought distract reality. But without thought, there is no understanding of reality. We have to start from intellectual understanding before we can understand the reality (paramatthas dhamma). I dont think he study Abdhidhamma, or not he will have not make these mistakes J: This is why we have so many difficulties in understanding the > truth. K: I think they do not understand the truth because most of them do not study Abdhidhamma in details. If one read the Abdhidhamma in details, a lot truth will be understand be it intellectually. No confusion will arise, confidence will arise in the dhamma. And most important, it helps us to see conditional relations of dhamma, all are not self. So much benefit in learning it yet so many people shun away, to me it is a great loss for them. Ken O 31415 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:44am Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.11 Hi Christine and all, Thank you, Christine, for taking over the discussion lead and keeping the study corner going while I was away. Much appreciation! Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah, all, > > Victor took a leave of absence from dsg from 2nd of March to the 16th > of March, and I agreed to help out in the study corner until he > returned (not, of course, if it is in six lives time :-)). Hop up on > the roof with the binoculars and start scanning the horizon - I'm > sure he'll come into sight at any moment. :-) [snip] > > metta and peace, > Christine 31416 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:30am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 14 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Warm air touches the nostril. It is a touch object. It is touch-sense-base. This means that the touch is the base for arising of touching-consciousness. The touch is photthabba. It is rupa. It is called photthabba arammana or touch object. As it is a base for touching-consciousness. it is called photthabba-ayatana or touch-sense-base. That warmth is touched because there is warm-receptor ( touch-receptor ). The nostril( body ) is sense receiver. It is body-sense-base. This means that the nostril is the base for arising of touching-consciousness. The body is kaya. It is called kaya vatthu. It is called kaya pasada. As it is a base for touching-consciousness, it is called kayaayatana or body-sense-base. There are photthabbaayatana ( the warmth of the mouth ) and kayaayatana ( the body ). The nerve supports the touch to reach to the sense receptor . As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise tasting-consciousness or kayavinnana citta. There is warmth. There is photthabbayatana or touch-sense-base. There is the body. There is kayaayatana or body-sense-base. There arises kayavinnana citta or touching-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31417 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, James - In a message dated 3/17/04 2:07:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, James - > > > >In a message dated 3/16/04 3:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >buddhatrue@y... writes: > >-------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is the Ch'an predecessor to Soto Zen "just sitting" > meditation,and > >has recently been popularized by Ven Sheng-Yen. You might find > material on it > >if you do a web search for him, or you can get a copy of his > book "Hoofprints > >of the Ox". > >--------------------------------------------------------- > > James: Thanks for the info. I was hoping for one of your beautiful > explanations but I guess I have no such luck. ;-)) > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the kind words. Ven Sheng-Yen gives a rather full description in his book. Also, you can look at the article at http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/poetry-stories/guidepost-of-silent-illumination.htm - that's at Anders' site (who used to be on this list), an excellent site. I don't have sufficient personal experience with Sheng-Yen's style of meditation (I've just recently been attempting it) to feel qualified to describe it to others. I do plan to do a one week silent-illumination retreat with him within the next year, and then I should have a better first-hand understanding. Meanwhile, it is better for you to read it in his own words, I think. ----------------------------------------------------- > > that book and I doubt that I can get it here in Cairo. I did a > search on Ven Sheng-Ven and I found a lot about his biography but > nothing about his method. Oh well. I will search again later when > I have more time. My computer is still being repaired! Lord help > me! ;-)) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Can't you get deliveries from Amazon.com? You might look at the following page at amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1842930311/qid=1079540965/sr=1-12/ref=sr_1_12/002-2279014-0513608?v=glance&s=books Also, just do a search at amazon.com for "sheng-yen", and you'll find many works of his. Another site, one of Sheng-Yen's, that you might find something of interest on is http://www.chancenter.org/ddp/chanmag.html ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Also, where can > > >>I find the Anupada Sutta? I can't find it online but if you > tell me > >>the collection reference I can find it in my printed copies. > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is in the MN collection, if you own that. In any case, > it is > >available at the web site http://www.vipassana.info/111-anupada- > e.htm > >---------------------------------------------------------- > > James: Thanks. Yea I do own that collection but I haven't read the > whole thing yet. I am slowing working my way through all the > Nikayas. From this online version it states that Sariputta is the > only one who has been able to do this method: combining jhana and > vipassana: > > "Bhikkhus, saying it rightly, it is Saariputta that has mastered and > completed the noble ones' virtues, mastered and completed the noble > ones' concentration, mastered and completed the noble ones' > perception, mastered and completed the noble ones' release. Sayng it > rightly it is only Saariputta that has mastered and completed the > noble ones' virtues, concentration, wisdom and release." > > Hmmm...if only Sariputta has been able to do this method I don't > hold out too much faith that I might be able to also! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't have the time at this moment to compare with the ~Nanamoli/Bodhi version, but even if this is exactly right, it doesn't say that Sariputta was the only one able to practice and benefit from such an approach. It says that he is the only one to have "mastered and completed" it (and the rest of the Buddha's path of practice), and that implies to me making use of it to the point of becoming an arahant. In fact, though this may be a misreading, this passage sems to suggest that Sariputta was the first to become an arahant under the Buddha's tutelage. (I don't know whether or not that reading accords with information in other suttas.) Another thing: I don't maintain that silent-illumination practice is identical with the meditative technique of Sariputta - only that it reminds me of it. ------------------------------------------------------- But, > > thanks for the information. Again, I think that this sutta does > clearly show that there are two methods of meditation and that only > the exceptionally rare individual is able to combine them with any > success. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I said, I'm not certain that this last clause is what was intended. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31418 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi again, James - Just something more about silent-illumination practice: I just noted that there are three succesive articles under "P" at the Ch'an magazine web site I gave you the url for. The url,again, is http://www.chancenter.org/ddp/chanmag.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31419 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/17/04 2:23:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > And I didn't say it. Please reread what I did say - with > regard to formal and informal meditation - a bit more carefully. > >------------------------------------------------ > > k: Howard you said that "formal meditation is meditation done in a > manner in which there is a restriction of the scope of attention>> > I thought this is what you meant. If not please kindly elaborate on > what you meant. Call it soup for the soul ;-). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nothing deep here. I am distinguishing here between formal and informal meditation, the distinction actually not being a sharp one, but a matter of degree. In what is *usually* called "formal meditation," there is a real restriction of attention to some degree or other, sometimes extreme. In "informal meditation," there is much less of this, often with attention being completely broad (to the extent one can avoid being drawn by interest into selectivity). [The silent-illumination approach I have been recently "hawking", as I understand it, seems to partake of each of these extremes. Beginning with focussing on the breath, then expanding attention to the body as a whole, and then to the entire realm of sensory experience with attention completely non-selective and equanimous, the mind serene, and clarity of mind maximal: This seems to be its nature. (James, take note: This is a one-sentence description! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------- > > > H: Ken, putting it simply: We are not close on this matter. > > k: the question is since one can do it anytime, why a need to do it > a more *formal*. Soemtimes I wonder, is it because we want to gain > something out of it, isn't this clinging, or we want to experience > something out of it, to feel comfortable, to feel calm, to feel more > attuned, isnt this also clinging. To me isn't it a waste, that the > rest of our waking hours we are not doing it. If one can transfer > our meditaion to everyday life, isn't it wonderful. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, our ordinary state is not one of heightened concentration, calm,and mindfulness, and thus our picking up on the nature of phenomena is not as acute as in a suitably altered state. There is a degree of cultivation possible during formal meditation which is not possible at other times, and carrying that out makes our mindfulness practice at ordinary times more effective. Obviously, the ideal is to be "practicing" at all times. -------------------------------------------------- > > > Ken O > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31420 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hi, James - In a message dated 3/17/04 2:28:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: I have the full version of Adobe Acrobat but PDF documents > cannot be copied and pasted into either HTML or Word. PDF documents > are somewhat like a 'picture' of the document and they don't contain > the data underlying the words for direct coversion. Text documents > can be 'converted' into PDF but not the other way around. PDF > documents are created because they don't contain as much data as > text documents and are therefore easier to transfer over the > Internet and by e-mail. > =========================== Is it possible to copy sections of a PDF file, paste them onto a new PDF file,and then send that file as an attachment to others? (Anyone can download a free Adobe reader, and then they could read that attached file.) Of course, whoever would do the copying, pasting, attaching, and mailing has himself a part-time job in that! [But maybe several participants have the full Adobe Acrobat, and they could take turns in the mailings.] I wouldn't blame someone, however, for refusing to take this on. I would be most reluctant. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31421 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 In a message dated 3/17/04 4:49:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > In order to begin the study of The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its > Commentaries. (Trans.from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi) perhaps some > parts can be posted for discussion? Here is the initial part of the > Introduction - > > INTRODUCTION: Dependent Arising > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31422 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi, Christine - In a message dated 3/17/04 4:49:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > In order to begin the study of The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its > Commentaries. (Trans.from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi) perhaps some > parts can be posted for discussion? Here is the initial part of the > Introduction - > > INTRODUCTION: Dependent Arising > ========================== Apologies for the previous empty reply (sent too quickly). Thank you for this, Christine! How did you manage to copy this? Do you have other than the PDF file? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31423 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi, Christine - In a message dated 3/17/04 4:59:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > Very often when discussing on dsg the joyful and sad happenings in > daily life, someone will advise that we should not get caught up > in "the stories" - that there are only dhammas arising and falling > away. But in this excerpt, BB says "the Buddha is not interested in > abstract formulas devoid of content; for him content is all- > important." > What is 'content' if it is not the stories, populated by things, > people, animals, experiences? > Is this a contradiction, or am I on the wrong track? > > metta and peace, > =========================== I don't find this contradictory. I think the point being made is that more important than intellectually grasping a general principle is to see that principle as it applies to specifics. Now specifics can be any level of experience, but the closer to direct experience, unmediated by mental construction, the more specific "the specifics" become. For example, to understand the general principle of impermanence is not as "good" as seeing the impermanence of one's own body or of other conventional objects, and that is not as transformative as directly seeing the radical impermanence of phenomena as they arise and cease. Reality is very specific. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31424 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Dear Philip, discerning, focussing, being alert, these are all different words used in the translation. We used the Translation by Ven. Soma, seems to be clearer. But what is this sutta all about? About sati and understanding: sati sampaja~n~na (sampaja~n~na being another word for pa~n~naa). Actually, if we keep this in mind it does not matter what words one uses. Pali is to be preferred. He makes himself alert can be misleading. I have not seen this before. If these words bother you, I can check Pali if you give me the correct passages. He is walking, and then he is mindful of different namas and rupas that appear as not mine, not I. He is focussed: for that very short moment he knows only one reality at a time. When it is hardness there is no other dhamma appearing at that moment. He can get used to different characteristics appearing one at a time through the six doorways. Or seeing appears, he, or rather satisampaja~nana, can be aware of seeing. That is the way to know it as it is. Just daily realities. Also sati should be known as not self, otherwise it is self all the time who is aware. And sati alone is not enough, most important is understanding. Lobha can come in very easily. Nina. P.S. When you meet Rob K, please give us a report of your conversation. op 17-03-2004 02:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when > walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself > fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself > fully alert.") 31425 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. - Avijjaa Dear Sarah, this text is too good to quickly pass over it. I highlight some of it. op 16-03-2004 06:42 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Here’s a quote from Vibh-a (Dispeller of Delusion), Structure of > Conditions, 642 on ignorance which I find helpful: > > “....Clear comprehension is understanding. It understands rightly the > Dhamma of the four truths with each meaning and each reason. But ignorance > when it arises does not allow it to understand that quality, thus it is > non-clear-comprehension (asampaja~n~na). Delusion (moha) is by deluding. > Bewilderment (pamoha) is by bewildering. Confusion (sammoha) is by way of > confusing. “It finds what should not be found (avindiya.m vindati) is > ignorance (avijjaa). N: vindati : to know, find, look for. Ignorance has all sorts of inventions which twist the truth. Text: It engulfs, causes to sink in the process [of > existence] is the flood of ignorance (avijjogha). “It yokes to the > process [of existence] is the yoke of ignorance (avijjaayoga). N: It shows how powerful and frightening ignorance is. Text:Because > of arising again and again through not being abandoned, it is the inherent > tendency to ignorance (avijjaanusaya). N: It conditions akusala cittas with ignorance again and again, and then each time more ignorance is added to what was already accumulated. Text: “Like robbers that beset travellers > on the road, it besets profitable consciousness, seizes it, plunders it > is the besetting of ignorance (avijjaapariyu.t.thaana)..... N: Pariyu.t.thaana is a term for the akusala citta that arises, conditioned by the latent tendencies. It spoils all kusala. Kusala citta may arise, but soon after it akusala citta is bound to arise, for example when when we are pleased with ourselves, or we have a thought of wanting to accumulate kusala for ourselves instead of eradicating akusala. As we heard in Bgk: an underlying idea of: performing kusala for one's own sake. It is serious since most of the time there is ignorance of this. Text: cf Vibh-a (Dispeller 617): > > “.....And it causes to be unknown (avidita) the meaning of heap in the > aggregates N: the meaning of the five groups which are the khandhas. Not understanding that these are actually citta, cetasika and rupa. text:the meaning of extent in the bases, N: extending, one of the meanings of ayatana (sense bases): they are realities that associate with each other, such as seeing, eyesense and visible object. text; the meaning of void in the elements, N: the elements are void of a self. text: the meaning of reality in the truths, N: the four Truths deal with paramattha dhammas. text: the meaning of predominance in the faculties N: the namas and rupas that are indriyas are leaders each in their own field. Manindriya is citta, it knows an object, is the chief in knowing an object. Panna is an indriya: a leader in understanding the object. .......(snipped) N: In many suttas the dependent origination is implied, sometimes just in a few words. In the Co it is striking how often we are reminded that the Buddha taught in this or that sutta: vatta, being in the cycle, and vivatta, freedom from the cycle. Nina. 31426 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 16-03-2004 00:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I agree. Groups are known through inference (reason), the same as other > mind object rupas such as nutriment. N: Nutriment can be directly known through insight. For us now: by inference, we can see that it is the condiiton for such or such phenomena. All the same, it is real! L:I further agree that groups are > ultimate realities, not mere concepts, and groups of groups are also > ultimate realities. N: Groups are concepts that help us to see the conditions for rupas. We learn that all that arises must have conditions. Each of these groups originates from one of the four factors. L:So shovels and tractors and Howard's tree are all > realities, not mere concepts. N: No. Howard gave you a few explanations already. I think I would like now a more practical approach. Spring is beginning in Boulders, Colorado. There must be flowers already. Can you pick a flower? Can you experience smell without having to call it anything? Can you, when you touch it, experience softness without having to call it anything? Is there anything appearing through the eyes without having to think of it or to define it? Is there not a difference when you close your eyes or when you open them? Then you can get closer to paramattha dhammas, ultimate truth, different from conventional truth. Paramattha dhammas have characteristics that can be directly experienced one at a time through the six doorways. When you begin to understand this, the difference between paramattha dhamma and concept will be clearer. We may theorize about this, but in this way we create many unnecessary difficulties for ourselves, we may have lots of doubts. I selected a few quotes from old posts for you that you can look at. I do not know whether you find them helpful. from Suan: "Coventional truth is truth by convention, or truth through the processes of naming or labeling. Real or actual truth is truth by observation, experience, or experiment." from Rob K: from Jon: end quotes. Nina. P.S. By the way: panna and sanna are different cetasikas with different characteristics and functions. Think of the money changer. 31427 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:22am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Soon after the sound ( song of dove ) disappears, there left thought after thought. Some thoughts are directed to the possible dove and some thoughts are directed to signs associated with the dove like 'peace'. These thoughts are objects. They are thought-sense-base. This means that these thoughts are the base for arising of mind-consciousness or intellect-consciousness. The thoughts are dhammaarammana and they are mind objects. As they are base for mind-consciousness, it is called dhamma-ayatana or thought-sense-base. These thoughts are known because they are being attended. This means that the attending mind is the base for arising of mind-consciousness. The attending mind is mano. As it is a base for mind-consciousness, it is called manaayatana or mind-sense-base. There are dhammaayatana ( the thoughts ) and manaayatana ( the mind ). The attention supports the thought to reach to conscious level . As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise mind-consciousness or manovinnana citta. There are thoughts. There are dhammaayatana or thought-sense-base. There is the mind. There is manaayatana or mind-sense-base. There arises manovinnana citta or mind-consciousness or intellect-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31428 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 In a message dated 3/17/04 11:46:58 AM Central Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Apologies for the previous empty reply (sent too quickly). Thank you for this, Christine! How did you manage to copy this? Do you There are decoders available that convert PDF to text. I downloaded a free trial software (could use for 5 conversions) once and it worked fine. Sorry but I lost the web site. I think I searched on "PDF to text conversions." I still think he full version of Acrobat Reader did this conversion. I suggest whomever said they had the full version (means you had to pay $30-40) check again. The other way that I use is to print the PDF file out and then scan it using my OCR setting. jack 31429 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hello Howard, Jack, all, It's called the 'One by One as they Arise' method. I open my hard copy of The Great Discourse on Causation p.1 of 43 of the Introduction, visible object fills my sight. After trillions of sense and mind door processes, I recognise a letter. After a whole lot of other mystifying processes, a finger presses on a keyboard and Lo! the very same letter appears on the screen. [repeat this about 944,000 times] then go through more mystifiying processes to connect to the internet and send to dsg. Cheaper than pdf. :-) It would be wonderful if someone could follow Jack's information and place the Sutta (particularly the introduction) and the commentaries in the files section of dsg. I'm afraid I place this operation in the same 'incomprehensible' basket as following road maps. It would save my mind door processes suffering from fatigue. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/17/04 11:46:58 AM Central Standard Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > Apologies for the previous empty reply (sent too quickly). > Thank you for this, Christine! How did you manage to copy this? Do you > There are decoders available that convert PDF to text. I downloaded a free > trial software (could use for 5 conversions) once and it worked fine. Sorry but > I lost the web site. I think I searched on "PDF to text conversions." > > I still think he full version of Acrobat Reader did this conversion. I > suggest whomever said they had the full version (means you had to pay $30-40) check > again. > > The other way that I use is to print the PDF file out and then scan it using > my OCR setting. > > jack 31430 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hello Jack, and all, The shortest time frame I have been able to find mentioned in a Sutta is seven days (quote at foot of post). And I've always taken it to mean that it is doubtful that very many are advanced enough or have enough accumulations to actually be able to do develop, without interruption, the four frames of reference for even a short period like 7 days, (corrections welcome), but if they did, they'd reach Unbinding and the end of re-becoming. My primitive search techniques: Cached articles: When searching for a particular sutta, it is relatively easy if you have the *exact* words. Just choose a distinctive group of words, add either of the words sutta or theravada [to ensure you don't get something like Nibbana Beer or Citta Home Industries], and put in Google. When the many possibles (in diminishing probability) are listed, peruse the likeliest on the first few pages and then click on the word 'cached' attached to an individual listing. This opens the article and highlights in different colours the words you were searching on. Scroll quickly down without needing to read any of the article until the coloured group of words shows up. You can search a score of articles in a few minutes without painstakingly reading everything. When the article is not cached: Search on Google as before. Open a likely article (usually on the first few pages of links), press Ctrl F and type in one or two distinctive words to search on. This will bring up the first occurrence highlighted in green. Press 'find next' to continue on through the article. This is obviously slower than the first method. If you still don't turn up what you are looking for, repeat, but rephrase the search terms - or, if you know the author, search on his/her name with the subject attached. ---------------------------- "(E. Conclusion) " Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. " Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. " Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. " 'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words." http://www.satipatthana.org/satipatthana_sutta.html ---------------------------- metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > >S: My question to you would be this:Why give the attention to the breath in > the first place? Why select any particular object? > > jack: First, because the Buddha suggested it. Second because it is too > difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual understanding of, > for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of everyday > life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding of it. > It is not as hard when we follow the Buddha's directions and use meditation to > slow everything down in a quiet environment, pick one object of meditation and > then be mindful of all aspects including anatta of that object. After > practicing this on our cushion day after day, year after year, we are able to see, > truly see, anatta in all phenomena in our life off the cushion. > > Somewhere the Buddha said that if we can see clearly in one moment we are > enlightened. I read this to mean that if we can see clearly one phenomena, our > breath, for instance, in any environment, then we are enlightened. Why pick an > environment where there are lots of distractions? > Sarah and all, > > This is a follow-up to my note above. I was looking for the sutta where I > think it said that true awareness of one breath results in enlightenment. I haven’ > t found that yet. Catherine, you seem to be able to find anything in the > suttas. Can you help? (By the way, how do you do a search for a sutta phrase or > subject?) > > Sarah, I did find the following in the Anapanasati Sutta that answers your > question. “Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, > it is of great fruit and great benefit. When mindfulness of breathing is > developed and cultivated, it fulfills the four foundations of mindfulness. When the > four foundations of mindfulness are developed and cultivated, they fulfill > the seven enlightenment factors. When the seven enlightenment factors are > developed and cultivated, they fulfill true knowledge and deliverance.â€? > > I was waiting in a hospital corridor for test results on my wife early this > morning. (The biopsy came out benign. Great news.) I was reading one of my > favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of Non- Attachment and > found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only perception that > is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. Thought distorts > reality and reality cannot be reached through thought. In the West particularly, > the way of thinking is used in the attempt to understand truth. This is like > scratching your foot when you have your shoe on. You do not scratch the skin, > but only the shoe. The intellect can touch only the symbol of truth but not the > truth itself. This is why we have so many difficulties in understanding the > truth. But when we give up this approach it is much easier. Intellectual people > find it very difficult to understand, because they try to reach the truth in > their own way. They want to reach the new, but carry with them the old > consciousness, which causes a reflection of the old on the new, distorting the > understanding and conditioning the consciousness till further, on a deeper level, by > the perversion of thought.â€? > > jack 31431 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello Nina, and all. N:> discerning, focussing, being alert, these are all different words used in > the translation. We used the Translation by Ven. Soma, seems to be clearer. P: Thank you for your feedback,Nina. I should be using more than one translation, as I do with the Dhammapada. Is Ven. Soma's available online? If so, would someone kindly provide a link, or a link to other translations that you consider reliable? Thanks in advance. N:> But what is this sutta all about? About sati and understanding: sati > sampaja~n~na (sampaja~n~na being another word for pa~n~naa). Actually, if we > keep this in mind it does not matter what words one uses. P: I think my confusion lies in the degree of intended focus that is found in different approaches to cultivating sati. Thus the interest in whether the words sound self-directed or not. I am now reading a leading Thai academic that I am sure you are now familiar with (Pattayo? I forget his name at the moment) and his approach invites constant maintenance of sati, with an effort at channeling what arises and what doesn't. And then there is AJahn Chah with his "if you are without 30 sati for 30 minutes, you are crazy for 30 minutes." Very different from the approach favoured here, where it is taught that sati cannot be expected to arise often in the day. I think it's good for me to stay open to both ways of seeing sati. I think for the time being as a beginner who has already seen his way of practicing brahma-viharas shaken to the core, I will need to begin my cultivation of sati with a certain degree of directed focus and hopefully move towards the purer practice handed down by K Sujin as my practice develops. I have a great respect the way K Sujin and you who practice in her tradition see sati. It's quite a rigorous interpretation but I sense it is very pure. N:>Pali is to be > preferred. He makes himself alert can be misleading. I have not seen this > before. If these words bother you, I can check Pali if you give me the > correct passages. P: Thank you for your kind offer, Nina. Clearly my practice is not yet at the point where I should be worrying so much about individual words. N:> not self, otherwise it is self all the time who is aware. And sati alone is > not enough, most important is understanding. Lobha can come in very easily. P: This I can see, and it is why I admire your way of practicing. Rigorous and pure. I think I am getting better at questioning role of self in anything I do. The process of unravelling the tight hold of self has definitely begun in earnest. So I'll be careful however I cultivate sati that it does not become another exericse in self- preservation the way my brahma-viharas was. > P.S. When you meet Rob K, please give us a report of your conversation. P: I don't expect that will be happening any day soon, because Rob lives in Kyushu which is a good long way away. If he comes to the Tokyo area it would be wonderful to meet him, if only for a coffee. I'm very interested to hear how his Abhidhamma translation project is going/went. Metta, Phil > op 17-03-2004 02:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when > > walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself > > fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself > > fully alert.") 31432 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Phil --- Philip wrote: > ... > P: Thank you for your feedback,Nina. I should be using more than > one translation, as I do with the Dhammapada. Is Ven. Soma's > available online? If so, would someone kindly provide a link, or a > link to other translations that you consider reliable? Ven Soma's translatin of the text and commentary is at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Jon 31433 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello Philip and all, Over time various members have formed small study groups on the list to go over important writings such as Nina's Abhidhamma in Dailly Life, and 'The Way of Mindulness' and commentary by Soma Thera. (There are a couple running on other topics now, as well) Larry was a driving engine behind some of these groups as he is with the VisuddhiMagga corner. Philip - the previous posts discussing sections of Soma Thera's translation of sutta and commentary of the Satipatthaana Sutta and commentary can be accessed via: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23298 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Phil > > --- Philip wrote: > > ... > > P: Thank you for your feedback,Nina. I should be using more than > > one translation, as I do with the Dhammapada. Is Ven. Soma's > > available online? If so, would someone kindly provide a link, or a > > link to other translations that you consider reliable? > > > Ven Soma's translatin of the text and commentary is at this link: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Jon > > 31434 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi James, -------------- J: > Huh?? I wasn't even writing about you; I was writing about Sarah asking why paying attention to the breath is important. ------------------------ Huh?? Then why did you post it to this thread addressing Howard's reply to me? It's not important but, for the record, I think you were writing about Sarah and me and all of us who follow the Abhidhamma/Commentary line. -------------------------- J: > I think I do have some ESP ability, but so what. It doesn't mean a thing...not a single thing. ESP isn't wisdom. -------------------------- I agree, and it's good to hear you say that. But aren't you the same James who told us he *knew*, through ESP, that the Abhidhamma was not the word of the Buddha? And he *knew*, through ESP, that certain suttas were forgeries – added on at a later date? ----------------------- J: > I didn't have anything to say about your post because you were quoting a commentary. ------------------------- All right, maybe I was mistaken. But this has happened before: just when I think I have scored a point against you, the goalposts have mysteriously moved :-) --------------------------- J: > I think you took my post wrong and have gone on the attack here. You wouldn't have done that if you had ESP like I do!! LOL! ------------------------- :-) I don't need ESP to know when I'm being conned. Kind regards, Ken H PS: You wrote: "If the commentary says that mindfulness of walking is the same with animals, okay. I don't have a problem with that." That is not exactly what the Commentary says: the kind of mindfulness of walking taught by the Buddha is definitely NOT the kind we share with animals. KH 31435 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/17/04 4:35:15 PM Central Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: The shortest time frame I have been able to find mentioned in a Sutta is seven days (quote at foot of post). And I've always taken it to mean that it is doubtful that very many are advanced enough or have enough accumulations to actually be able to do develop, without interruption, the four frames of reference for even a short period like 7 days, (corrections welcome), but if they did, they'd reach Unbinding and the end of re-becoming. Christine, Thanks for the search advice. I did know the reference above. What I was looking for was not referring to a time frame but that if we could see one breath clearly, we reach the end of becoming. Maybe I saw it in a commentary. But, I think it makes sense that if we could see one phenomena clearly with full realization of anicca, anatta and unsatisfactoriness, we could see all phenomena in the same light. Maybe not. Jack 31436 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Ken O, Any ideas on why "ignorance" is specifically ignorance of the 4 noble truths rather than ignorance of something else? Larry 31437 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Larry This is my guess work, I dont think our Lord Buddha will want to confuse worldings like me. So he stick to one meaning of ignorance as not understanding the 4NT. It makes dhamma easier to understand, just imagine if you will have to second guess what ignorance meant in a sutta. Specifically why mentioned in 4 NT and not others, IMHO it is not understanding that craving for existence, worldlings like me still wonder in cycles. So that is why the citta for rebirth linking is always lobha-mula citta (lobha + moha). Buddha seeks enlighetment bc he knows this craving is the initial impetus that drive us all to the mass of suffering, if there is no rebirth, where is there ageing, sickness and death. So the crux is getting rid of craving of existence ;-), so specifically 4NT and not others. Ken O 31438 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Howard and Nina, It looks like I am up against a formidable team. Neither of you has ever experienced a group while I _only_ experience groups. When you look at this email what do you see, one dot of light after another? If groups are concepts does space separate concepts? Larry 31439 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi Howard, Jack and Christine Even if you have the full version, there is nothing you can do about it. Because these are scanned documents and therefore images and not text. If look closely at the side, there are black patches - so it is scanned. Then I think maybe we should ask ourselves whether this copy is legal - means whether it infringe into copyrights Ken O 31440 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello Christine, Jon, Suan Lu and all Thank you for that wonderful information about the past study groups, Christine. THe ADL group will be helpful as well, because after bouncing along merrily until Ch 9 I realized I needed to go back to the beginning and check my understanding. Thank you for the link, Jon, and Suan Lu for the interesting perspective on the Pali. I missed your post earlier. And I guess I could also thank Yahoova for this whole service. Wonderful how the archives are available the way they are, and searchable, and whatnot. And no obnoxious ads. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip and all, > > Over time various members have formed small study groups on the list > to go over important writings such as Nina's Abhidhamma in Dailly > Life, and 'The Way of Mindulness' and > commentary by Soma Thera. > 31441 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Dear Christine, Thank you very much. op 17-03-2004 10:58 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Very often when discussing on dsg the joyful and sad happenings in > daily life, someone will advise that we should not get caught up > in "the stories" - that there are only dhammas arising and falling > away. But in this excerpt, BB says "the Buddha is not interested in > abstract formulas devoid of content; for him content is all- > important." > What is 'content' if it is not the stories, populated by things, > people, animals, experiences? > Is this a contradiction, or am I on the wrong track? N: You are on the right track. I remember A. Sujin saying some years ago that D.O. is right now. It is not theory, not a formula. It is good to reflect all the time: how do we apply this now? On the personal level, the social level, and the level of paramattha dhammas, as far as we are able to. And paramattha dhammas are very daily, we should not forget. Isn't it all about lobha now, ignorance now, kusala kamma, akusala kamma? As Ken Ong says, there is no contradiction between these different levels. The Buddha spoke about suffering in life, old age, sickness and death, and he pointed to paramattha dhammas so that we can have a deeper understanding of all that happens. When we suffer loss or are troubled by the sickness of a dear person we can be reminded of D.O., we are in the cycle, that is a fact. Then we can be urged to develop more understanding of whatever reality appears, be it the worry or the sadness, be it thinking of stories. We cannot expect the dhamma to be a remedy straight away, but right understanding will surely eventually lead out of the cycle. We can have confidence in the Dhamma. Nina. 31442 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta: To Nina Dear Suan, thank you for giving the Pali terms. I appreciate your post. The word sampajaanakaarii makes it very clear that the sutta pertains to vipassana. Nina. op 17-03-2004 15:53 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > The Pali term in the first quote is "Pajaanaati" and simply means "to > know". The knowers of abhidhamma regard it as the action of the mind. > > On the other hand, the Pali term in the second quote > is "Sampajaanakaarii" where "sampajaana" as a synonym of "paññaa" > means wisdom. THus, sampajaanakaarii would mean someone who is wise / > prudent. > > Phil was also interested to know the significance of the following > quote: > > "Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed > internally on..."" > > The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye > kaayaanupassii viharati". > > We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives > as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body > privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily > phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! > > The main verb under consideration is "anupassii" > from "Kaayaanupassii". > > Thus, "anupassii" means "someone who observes" and the > verb "anupassati, to observe" is the action of the mind. > > > In passing, practitioners who observe their bodily postures are pure > practitioners of vipassanaa (see the Pali term "Kaayaanupassii"), and > can attain near-jhaana samaadhi (upacaarasamaadhi) at the maximum > which is adequate for attainment of any path insight (maggañaa.na) > from Sotaapanna level through to the Arahant level. > > Near-jhaana samaadhi is just before the First Ruupaavacara Jhaana, > and thus we know for sure that the Buddha in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana > Suttam clearly taught how to attain the Arahant awakening without > first having Samatha Jhaanas (Ruupaavacara Jhaanas). > > It is a pity that some people persist in their misguided narrow views > on the roles of worldly Jhaanas (Samatha Jhaanas) without making > genuine efforts to understand Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam as the > Buddha's teachings on purely Vipassanaa practice. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello all > > I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of > the satipatthana sutta. I'll be reading the archive posts on it, but > in the meantime there is a question I'd like to ask you. > > I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when > walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself > fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself > fully alert.") > > Do you think there is an important distinction here? Is it just > that the latter is intransitive? (doesn't take an object.) > > Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed > internally on..." that appears repeatedly *after* references > to "discern" or "makes himself alert." Do you think the "in this way" > suggests that "remains focussed internally" is a *result* of > discerning and making oneself alert, or is "remains focussed > internally" just another phrase that means the same thing > as "discern" and "makes himself fully alert." > > I suppose "discern" is a momentary rising of awareness, and "makes > himself alert" is somehow more intentional and "remains focussed > internally" is somehow more sustained. That's the way it sounds to > this beginner, anyways. > > I guess I should compare more than one translation, the way I do > with the Dhammapada, but for the time being I am only using the > translation available at access to insight. > > Thanks in advance for any guidance here. > > Metta, > Phil 31443 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. - Avijjaa Dear Nina & All, Thankyou for interspersing comments and Pali details on the other quote I gave on ignorance. As you've mentioned, the Dhamma was taught by the Buddha in various ways. With regard to Dependent Origination, it was sometimes taught from the beginning (ignorance), especially when there is confusion (!). Sometimes it is taught backwards, especially when there is trouble ‘for the purpose of showing the reason for the various kinds of suffering beginning with ageing and death...’(Dispeller 608) and sometimes starting in the middle and working backwards to show how cause and result ‘extends back into the past’ or from the middle to the end for showing how the future follows its causes in the present. There are a couple more extracts I’d like to give from the introduction and definition section in Dispeller, Vibh-A (PTS transl of Sammohavinodanii). I’ve been reflecting on the first one which discusses why sometimes ignorance is given as the ‘head’ or prime cause, whilst in other contexts craving is given as the ‘head’. I think it’s really interesting and it also links to threads on kamma, precepts, rebirth and so on. “641. But there is a way of presentation (pariyaaya) according to which it may be the prime cause. but what is that? [When] it heads the exposition of the process. For the Blessed One gives the exposition of the process with [one of] two things at its head: either ignorance according as it is said: ‘No first beginning, bhikkhus, of ignorance is made known, before which ignorance was not and after which ignorance came to be. Thus is this said, bhikkhus, and yet it is made known that ignorance has that [i.e cankers] as its condition’ (A v 113); or craving for existence, according as it is said: ‘No first beginning, bhikkhus, of craving for existence is made known, before which craving for existence was not and after which craving for existence came to be. Thus this is said, bhikkhus; and yet it is made known that craving for existence has that as its condition’ (A v 116). “612. But why does the Blessed One give the exposition of the process with these two states at the head? Because they are the outstanding causes of kamma which leads to a happy destiny and that which leads to an unhappy destiny. For ignorance is the cause of outstanding kamma which leads to an unhappy destiny. Why? Because just as a cow to be slaughtered, on being burned with fire and belaboured with cudgels and overcome by torment, when she is sick with the torment starts drinking the hot water although it is distressing and brings about her own undoing, so the ordinary man who is overcome by ignorance undertakes kamma of the various kinds beginning with killing living things, which leads to unhappy destiny, although it is distressing because of the burning of the defilements and brings his own undoing because it casts him into an unhappy destiny. “614. But craving for existence is the outstanding cause of kamma which leads to a happy destiny. Why? Because, just as the aforesaid cow, through craving for cold water, [starts] drinking cold water which is entirely pleasant and dispels her own tortures, so the ordinary man who is overcome by craving for existence starts kamma of the various kinds beginning with abstention from killing living things. This leads to a happy destiny and is pleasant because it is free from the burning of the defilements, and by attaining the happy destiny he dispels the torture of the suffering in the unhappy destiny. “615. But as regards these [two] states which head the exposition of the process, in some instances the Blessed One gives instruction based on a single [one of these] states, for instance: ‘Accordingly, bhikkhus, formations have ignorance as their cause’ (S ii 31) and so on; likewise: ‘In one, bhikkhus, who dwells seeing satisfaction in states productive of craving, craving increases, with craving as condition clinging [arises]’ (S ii 84) and so on; in some instances based on both, for instance: ‘Thus, bhikkhus, this body comes to arise for the fool who is hindered by ignorance and yoked to craving; accordingy this body and external mentality-materiality are a pair; due to the pair there is contact, and to the six bases (of contact) touched by which the fool feels pleasue and pain’ (S ii 23f) and so on.” ***** S: Of course these paragraphs I’ve just typed out touch on a lot more than introductory comments to just ignorance, but I think this is inevitable. The other quote I wished to give I’m now cutting short as the first one turned out to be so long. At the end of the section on ignorance in the same text we read about how it conceals the Four Noble Truths. These truths are profound and difficult to see. Furthermore, we read: “644......But the truth of cessation is extremely profound and extremely hard to see; thus the darkness of delusion which conceals the four Noble Truths, which are profound because hard to see and hard to see because profound, is called ignorance.” ***** Any comments most welcome as usual. Metta, Sarah ===== 31444 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:15pm Subject: Clinging to views (anecdote) Hello all. I'd like to tell you all a funny story that keeps coming to mind every day recently, because of the shifts of understanding I've been having recently. When I came to Japan, I understood that cars drive on the left, unlike in my native Canada. That was easy. But I had trouble figuring out the pedestrian traffic. Did people pass each other on the right, or the left? It seemed that they passed on the left. (Someone even told me this was because samurai in the Edo era carried their swords on the left, and passing to the left would help them avoid bumping swords and fighting as a result.) A few years later, we moved from Central Japan to the suburbs of Tokyo. I was perplexed to find that many people insisted passing on the right on the sidewalk. What was wrong with these people? I asked my wife, and she reassured me that people were supposed to pass on the left. I took this as a confirmation of the rightness of my view, and about 2 years ago in a shameful epriod of bad choler, I began having little confrontations with people who insisted on trying to get by me to the right, even as I squeezed up against concrete walls to try to stop them. "You're going the wrong way!" I hissed. "No, no...you are," they replied. This went on for a few months, especially along one long stretch of concrete wasteland that I walk up every day on the way home. Did it occur to me to just yield quickly? Yes, it occured to me and on most days I did, but but going home from work, tired, carrying heavy groceries, I insisted on the rightness of the leftness of my view. Well, at some point I discovered that in the Tokyo area, people do indeed pass on the right, unlike in my wife's home, the Nagoya area. She was right in Nagoya but she was wrong in the Tokyo suburbs and I had been wrong in clinging to the view I'd inherited from her. I laughed at myself, and expressed regret to the ghosts of the people I'd had run-ins with, and then proceeded to pass on the right. And then I discovered that many people were trying to pass on the left, and a few little confrontations ensued! "Are you from Nagoya, idiot!" I'd mutter. "You're supposed to pass to the right around here." No, the last part's fiction, thankfully. By then I was wise enough to stop holding on to views, and now, as soon as someone is coming down that long stretch of concrete, I quickly yield to the other side no matter whether it is the right or the left, as any sensible person would do. There is no need to hold on to views about such a silly thing. Now, with dhamma, I am learning so much, so quickly. Some of it very contrary. Sati is a rare experience that rises in a conditioned way. Sati is a common experience, that starts like indiviual drops of water from a kettle spout, and then as the kettle is tilted, becomes a steady pour. (the latter is Ajaan Chah) And except for that brief bit of bad behaviour last week, I am exercising the same willingness to yield to which ever view of things I come across. Of course, that's not what the Buddha taught. He said to doubt everything. But I think we can doubt, even while yielding. So that was my funny clinging to views anecdote. And you see how awash with hostility I was just a few short years ago. (Thanks again to brahma-viharas for getting me out of that mess.) Metta, Phil 31445 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Nina & All, > --- nina wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I appreciate B.B.'s answer on space. > .... S:> yes, I'll send more links to posts as he requests. .********** Further discussion and comments (yesterday) from Bhikkhu Bodhi [I’ve inserted indicators to clarify who’s writing and note that >> indicates earlier comments]: .... S:>> While I'm writing, we're also discussing space > (akasa > rupa) in detail and questioning a comment in CMA: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31140 .... BB:>> I'm not at all sure. This requires further > investigation. I must have had > some source for my statement (unless it came from > Ven. U Rewata Dhamma and I > just incorporated it into my commentary). I'll have > to check up on this. .... S:>You may have referred to a comment by Ven ~Naa.namoli in Vsim V111, n68 or elsewhere. I refer to it in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20500.html .... BB:>> Of course, any further comments you care to make > would > be greatly appreciated. In Karunadasa's article on > Time and Space, I also believe there may be errors > in > his treatment on space in this regard. ..... S:>In addition to the ones I gave last time, further letters by Nina on Space (akasa rupa) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28945 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29030 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31051 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31207 .... BB: On the status of the space element: I tried to do some research on this, but could not come up with a conclusive answer. You may be correct. I had always assumed that the defining mark of a paramattha-dhamma according to the Theravada Abhidhamma system is sabhAvato vijjamAna ("existing through intrinsic nature"), but your challenge makes me think this may not be correct. It would not be enough, though, merely to bring forth rational arguments, as Nina does; one would have to quote texts that establish that space is paramattha without being sabhAvato vijjamAna. Such distinctions are unlikely to be made even in the Abhidhamma commentaries (though I might be wrong). One would have to go down to texts of a still more technical nature, like the Abhidhamma tikas (sub-commentaries), and it is difficult to find anyone who knows these well. If you have contact with Lance Cousins (former president of Pali Text Society) or Rupert Gethin (current president), they might be able to provide you with the answer. Here I don't have access to these texts, and the headache makes delving into such abstruse but interesting questions difficult.< end BB’s comments> Metta, Sarah ====== 31446 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB3 - Luminosity Dear Nina & All, I just added a short comment: ... BB: > >But I regard the Abhidhamma Pitaka as being later than the four Nikayas > and the core texts of the Khuddaka Nikaya (Dhpada, Sutta-nipata, most of > Thera-therigatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, etc.), and the Abhidhamma > commentaries as being "considerably later," so I would still stand by my > statement.< .... S: >With respect, I think we may have to agree to disagree here. Please see the links at the end of this note (on Decline of the Sasana) with relevance to these points*.< ... I gave these links after signing off, but no further discussion for now. ..... *Decline of the Sasana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24576 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24257 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24386 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30426 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19897 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17904> Metta, Sarah ===== 31447 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ken, our ordinary state is not one of heightened > concentration, calm,and mindfulness, and thus our picking up on the nature of phenomena is not as acute as in a suitably altered state. There is a degree of cultivation possible during formal meditation which is not possible at other times, and carrying that out makes our mindfulness practice at ordinary times more effective. Obviously, the ideal is to be "practicing" at all times. > -------------------------------------------------- K: Why there is a need for a heightened concentration, calm and mindfulness. I dont think when Buddha say let us restrain in our six senses, it required a heigthened state. Likewise when you see the satipatthana sutta the begining, breathing in long.... rapture... equanmity, all these are not heigthen state. How does your perposition being consistent with satipatthana and the six senses. Other than jhanas and the superpowers attain, I dont think there are heighten states. Ken O 31448 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack (& All), --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > >S: My question to you would be this:Why give the attention to the > breath in > the first place? Why select any particular object? > > jack: First, because the Buddha suggested it. .... S: Perhaps it would be helpful to consider and look at various suttas to see whom it was suggested for and in what circumstances. In short, was it suggested for busy lay people(very large numbers of whom became enlightened)? Also, was he teaching those who had already attained jhanas with breath as object or not? Finally, we read that even key disciples like Sariputta (as in the case of Rahula) might not know when or for whom breath was a suitable object. We read in the Vism that it is the hardest of samatha objects and only for some with paricular wisdom, I think. (I know and respect that James disagrees here). .... J: >Second because it is too > difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual > understanding of, > for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of > everyday > life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding > of it. .... S: Again, I appeciate what you’re saying. I think we have to continue reflecting and considering what an understanding of anatta means. For example, I don’t understand it to mean a ‘sense of losing oneself’ or ‘not experiencing any object’ etc and I don’t see this as supported in the texts either. Simply, as I see it, pa~n~naa (wisdom) learns more and more about the various namas and rupas appearing anytime, whether nervously waiting for your wife’s results (glad all’s well, btw) or any other time. What are these namas and rupas? They are the dhammas we read about throughout the suttas - seeing, visible object, thinking, worry, attachment and so on. By understanding their characteristics, conceptually and experientially, as they arise, the understanding of anatta will develop without any special intention or ‘giving up’. If we have an idea that there’s too much bustle or dhammas need to be slowed down, perhaps we need to consider a little more about the nature of dhammas. .... J: > It is not as hard when we follow the Buddha's directions and use > meditation to > slow everything down in a quiet environment, pick one object of > meditation and > then be mindful of all aspects including anatta of that object. .... S: I think this is bound to be the development of concentration or a particular kind of reflection. I’m not saying there is no value or there can’t be moments of real wisdom at these times, but we have to remember that the dhammas themselves or objects of meditation will have long past by the time there is a ‘picking out’ and reflecting (even if there are no words) on a concept of that object. It’s like now, maybe there can be a focussing on the hardness, but, in my experience, I think attachment to awareness is bound to be present. .... J:>After > practicing this on our cushion day after day, year after year, we are > able to see, > truly see, anatta in all phenomena in our life off the cushion. ... S: Perhaps all the wise considering and reflecting on what you’ve read and heard has helped as well;-) .... J: > Somewhere the Buddha said that if we can see clearly in one moment we > are > enlightened. ... S: While it’s true that enlightenment takes place in a moment (lokuttara magga citta), I think we have to be clear that wisdom develops very slowly over aeons and has to begin with clearly understanding namas and rupas without any confusion or doubt at all. .... J: >I read this to mean that if we can see clearly one > phenomena, our > breath, for instance, in any environment, then we are enlightened. Why > pick an > environment where there are lots of distractions? .... S: By breath, we should be clear in the development of satipatthana, I think, that we’re referring to experiences through the body sense - hardness/softness, motion/pressure and heat/cold. (Htoo wrote about this in a recent post). For wisdom to really develop as I understand,it need to know all kinds of namas and rupas without any special selection. It’s impossible for it to develop by just focussing on one reality only. This is why the suttas include all dhammas through six doorways. Without the knowledge of sounds or visible objects when they arise, for example, it’s impossible to become enlightened. .... > Sarah and all, > > This is a follow-up to my note above. I was looking for the sutta where > I > think it said that true awareness of one breath results in > enlightenment. I haven’ > t found that yet. Catherine, you seem to be able to find anything in the > > suttas. Can you help? (By the way, how do you do a search for a sutta > phrase or > subject?) .... S: Perhaps you meant Christine? A good way for this would be to key in terms or phrases into google. (I think this is just for Hong Kong, so the link may not work) http://www.google.com.hk/ You could try ‘breath awareness enlightenment’, or to narrow it down, maybe try ‘anapanasati...’. The last time I tried, I was directed back to a message of mine here on DSG!! Another clue which I learnt from Chris, is to click on ‘cached’ which makes it easy to scroll quickly through the linked texts for the relevant highlighted passage. .... J: > Sarah, I did find the following in the Anapanasati Sutta that answers > your > question. “Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and > cultivated, > it is of great fruit and great benefit..... .... S: Again, I would just ask, developed and cultivated by whom and with what understanding? .... <...> J: > favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of > Non-Attachment and > found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only > perception that > is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. ..... S: This is referring to the vipallaasas (perversions).Whenever the consciousness (and accompanying mental factors) are unwholesome, i.e when there’s lobha, dosa or moha as roots, then the perception and consciousness are perverted. As Ken O said, this doesn’t mean all thinking is bad. I agree with your main comment though, that intellectual understanding should never be taken for direct experience or wisdom. Right intellectual understanding is an important condition, but as you indicate,thinking is only thinking. The hindrance, however, is not intellectual understanding or being an intellectual person or any other kind of person, but moha or avijja as we’re discussing in the DO corner. I hope you and your wife continue in good health, Jack. Conditions change all the time, so it’s good to make the most of the opportunities for wise reflection and wisdom whilst we can. I appreciate this discussion - you help me to reflect carefully. I’d also like to draw your attention to a recent post of Jon’s which I think is relevant: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30249 He’ll also be happy to discuss any points further (albeit slowly;-)) Metta and looking forward to any further comments, Sarah p.s Do you have a picture of yourself and your wife to add to the photo album? Any other newbies? ================ 31449 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:04am Subject: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 2 Dear Group, Here are the final paragraphs of the section in Bhikkhu Bodhi's intro. on 'Dependent Arising'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- "In order to end the round, the conditions that sustain it have to be eliminated; and to eliminate them it is necessary to know what they are, how they hold together, and what must be done to extinguish their causal force. Though the round has no first point, no cause outside itself, it does have a distinct generative structure, a set of conditions internal to itself which keeps it in motion. The teaching of dependent arising discloses this set of conditions. It lays them out in an interlocking sequence which makes it clear how existence repeatedly renews itself from within and how it will continue into the future through the continued activation of these causes. Most importantly , however, dependent arising shows that the round can be stopped. It traces the sequence of conditions to its most fundamental factors. Then it points out that these can be eliminated and that with their elimination the round of rebirths and its attendant suffering are brought to a halt. As an account of the causal structure of the round, dependent arising appears in the suttas in diverse formulations. The fullest and most common contains twelve factors. The formula has two sides. One shows the sequence of origination, the other the sequence of cessation: "Bhikkhus, what is dependent arising? With ignorance as condition volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality- materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering. This bhikkhus, is called dependent arising. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, volitional formations cease; with the cessation of volitional formations consciousness ceases; with the cessation of consciousness mentality-materiality ceases; with the cessation of mentality- materiality the six sense bases cease; with the cessation of the six sense bases contact ceases; with the cessation of contact feeling ceases; with the cessation of feeling craving ceases; with the cessation of craving clinging ceases; with the cessation of clinging existence ceases; with the cessation of existence birth ceases; with the cessation of birth, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering. (S.XII, 1; ii 1-2) [[2] The prevailing interpretation regards the series as spanning three successive lives, the twelve factors representing the causal and resultant phases of these lives alternated to show the round's inherent capacity for self-regeneration. Thus ignorance and volitional formations represent the causal phase of the previous life which brought about existence in the present; the five factors from consciousness through feeling are their fruit, the resultant phase of the present life. Craving, clinging, and existence represent renewed causal activity in the present life; birth and aging and death sum up the resultant phase of the future life. At the risk of oversimplification the sequence can be briefly explained as follows. Due to ignorance - formally defined as non- knowledge of the Four Noble Truths - a person engages in ethically motivated actions, which may be wholesome or unwholesome, bodily, verbal, or mental. These actions, referred to here as volitional formations, constitute kamma. At the time of rebirth kamma conditions the re-arising of consciousness, which comes into being bringing along its psychophysical adjuncts, "mentality-materiality" (naama- ruupa). In dependence on the psychophysical adjuncts, the six sense bases develop - the five outer senses and the mind-base. Through these, contact takes place between consciousness and its objects, and contact in turn conditions feeling. In response to feeling craving springs up, and if it grows firm, leads into clinging. Driven by clinging actions are performed with the potency to generate new existence. There actions, kamma backed by craving, eventually bring a new existence: birth followed by aging and death. To prevent misunderstanding it has to be stressed that the distribution of the twelve factors into three lives is an expository device employed for the purpose of exhibiting the inner dynamics of the round. It should not be read as implying hard and fast divisions, for in lived experience the factors are always intertwined. The past causes include craving, clinging, and existence, the present ones ignorance and volitional formations; the present resultants begin with birth and end in death, and future birth and death will be incurred by the same resultants. Moreover, the present resultant and causal phases should not be seen as temporally segregated from each other, as if assigned to different periods of life. Rather, through the entire course of life, they succeed one another with incredible rapidity in an alternating sequence of result and action; the action is followed by more results; and these are again followed by still more action. So it has gone on through time without beginning, and so it continues. From this it is clear that dependent arising does not describe a set of causes somehow underlying experience, mysteriously hidden out of view. What it describes is the fundamental pattern of experience as such when enveloped by ignorance as to the basic truths about itself. This pattern is always present, always potentially accessible to our awareness, only without the guidance of the Buddha's teaching it will not be properly attended to, and thus will not be seen for what it is. It takes a Buddha to point out the startling truth that the basic pattern of experience is itself the source of our bondage, "the origin of this entire mass of suffering." [2] It will be noted that, as the twelvefold formula accounts for the origin and cessation of suffering, it offers an expanded version of the second and third noble truths. In fact, in one sutta (A.III,61; i,177) the two sides of the formula are stated in full as explanations of these two truths. End of the introductory section paragraphs on "Dependent Arising" ================================= 31450 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Icaro & Christine, --- icarofranca wrote: > dear Chris! > > > Holy Mackerel! Was that all in the Portugese translation? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > heheheh...of course not! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What WAS > > the translator smoking? (- or, dare I ask, the poster?) :-) :-) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Only the Concrete cocoa at office...HAHAHAHAH!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (Icaro, I could endure most difficulties, but I think the thing to > > break me would be Hostility by Pheasants! O, Lordy! that SUCH a > > thing could be!) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Bah!!!This typos make me SICH!!! > A bunch of hostile pheasants would be a terrible event to endure > for any warm-hearted Bhikkhu... but I mean hostility by peasants > instead ( and not Hostility by Peanuts, when Charlie Brown decide to > become a Bhikkhu, or Hostility by pea-shooters, etc....) ..... S: LOL!!!We both laughed so much when we read your analysis in the Sariputta sutta, Ch of 8s, 16, Sutta Nipata. Reading Icaro's messages is far more fun than doing cross-words...just trying to work out the sutta is a challenge in itself;-) ;-). Icaro, you can find the Pali at your favourite Pali Tipitaka website. I had in mind to look at a few key terms, but I get put off by all the squiggles on my Mac when I look. We discussed the first part of the sutta which comes out in a sarcastic way in Portuguese. If you like, you could raise one or two Pali key terms. We could also look at the meaning of ‘solitary dwelling’ when the Buddha speaks to Sariputta. It's obviously a favourite sutta of yours and I have a couple of translations to help. By the way, the peasants are ‘heretics’ in Sadhatissa’s transl and ‘those following another’s doctrine’ in Norman’s that ‘he should not be afraid, even after seeing their many terrors’!! Last two stanzas (Saddhatissa transl): “Then let him mindfully train to discipline the five kinds of pollution in the world, [namely] passion for forms, sounds, tastes, smells and touch.” [S: a good description of pollution] “Let the monk who is mindful with well-liberated mind subdue the desire for these things. Then, investigating the Truth thoroughly and with concentration, he will destroy the darkness [of ignorance].” [S: Always back to the darkness of ignorance until illuminated by insight and wisdom, revealing the noble truths.] Metta, Sarah ====== 31451 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) HI Htoo. S: I hope you saw my last note to you on final preparations of equipment. Hope it wasn’t TOO picky;-)Apologies if so. I’ve appreciated some of your recent installments, but a few comments here as it touches on ayatanas (sense bases) which we discussed before: --- Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Soon after the sound ( song of dove ) disappears, there left thought > after thought. Some thoughts are directed to the possible dove and some > thoughts are directed to signs associated with the dove like 'peace'. > > These thoughts are objects. They are thought-sense-base. This means > that these thoughts are the base for arising of mind-consciousness or > intellect-consciousness. The thoughts are dhammaarammana and they are > mind objects. As they are base for mind-consciousness, it is called > dhamma-ayatana or thought-sense-base. .... S: As we discussed before, we cannot say all dhammaarammana are dhamma-ayatana. Thoughts (of the dove) are concepts and objects (arammana) of citta, but only paramattha dhammas are ayatanas (sense bases). Dhamma-ayatana consist of subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana as we agreed. Perhaps I misundestand you here. .... > These thoughts are known because they are being attended. This means > that the attending mind is the base for arising of mind-consciousness. > The attending mind is mano. As it is a base for mind-consciousness, it > is called manaayatana or mind-sense-base. > > There are dhammaayatana ( the thoughts ) and manaayatana ( the mind ). .... S: Not quite. ... > The attention supports the thought to reach to conscious level . As > these matters are already attended with full understanding, .... S: The point, I think, is that full understanding can only know paramattha dhammas as we always agree, not thoughts which you agree above are concepts. .... <...> > The > meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is > no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of > self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. > > They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They > all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. > As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no > trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No > one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all > are anatta. ... S: Excellent, especially the last lines at the ends of your posts now;-);-)Imho, they’re getting better all the time. S: On another thread, you asked Swee Boon what the six higher knowledges in a translation were referring to. As I understand, these always refer to the 6 abhi~n~na (higher or supernormal knowledges). There was some discussion between you and someone else on these. As I understand only those who have attained all 5 jhanas and arahantship can exceptionally (or I should say could during the Buddha’s time and for a while afterwards)have these abhi~n~naa. For details, see Nyantiloka: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm Metta, Sarah ===== 31452 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, > > -------------- > J: > Huh?? I wasn't even writing about you; I was writing about > Sarah asking why paying attention to the breath is important. > ------------------------ > > Huh?? Then why did you post it to this thread addressing Howard's > reply to me? It's not important but, for the record, I think you > were writing about Sarah and me and all of us who follow the > Abhidhamma/Commentary line. > > -------------------------- James: I was replying to the way that Howard described meditation and I mentioned Sarah by name. I didn't mention you by name. I didn't care if it was in response to a post by you or not. > J: > I think I do have some ESP ability, but so what. > It doesn't mean a thing...not a single thing. ESP isn't wisdom. > -------------------------- > > I agree, and it's good to hear you say that. But aren't you the same > James who told us he *knew*, through ESP, that the Abhidhamma was > not the word of the Buddha? And he *knew*, through ESP, that certain > suttas were forgeries – added on at a later date? > > ----------------------- James: No, I never said any such thing! I have only referred to my ESP ability when it came to Buddhaghosa. It doesn't take ESP to know that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, it only takes half a brain!! ;-)) And as far as any sutta analysis, I was probably using a literary analysis to determine if something seemed to be by the Buddha or not. > J: > I didn't have anything to say about your post because you were > quoting a commentary. > ------------------------- > > All right, maybe I was mistaken. But this has happened before: just > when I think I have scored a point against you, the goalposts have > mysteriously moved :-) > > --------------------------- James: Scoring points?? Just what is your motivation? To elucidate and learn the dhamma or to personally show me up? (Hmmm...I think my ESP ability gives me the answer; I wonder if you know it yourself.) > J: > I think you took my post wrong and have gone on the attack > here. You wouldn't have done that if you had ESP like I do!! LOL! > ------------------------- > > :-) I don't need ESP to know when I'm being conned. James: Whatever. I am not trying to con you about anything. You have some personal issues you should resolve. > > Kind regards, > Ken H Just how 'kind'?? 31453 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Dear Eznir, --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah, > E: `Contact the meeting point' may be understood in 2 ways. > > (1) Eye, forms and eye-consciousness; the meeting of these three is > contact. And so with the other senses. ... I read all your comments with interest. I think we need to remember that contact refers tp phassa cetasika and associated factores. As we’ll be discussing it in depth within the context of D.O., perhaps we should wait for then? Two kinds of contact are distinguished as I read it: adhivacanasamphassa arising in the mind-door processes and patighasamphassa arising in the sense-door processes. I wrote a very detailed post to Howard on this (referring to the Mahanidana sutta and commentary and Abhidhamma texts). You may like to look at it and consider further comments for when we get to it in the D.O. Corner: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m23106.html Also, Nina gives a lot of helpful detail on phassa and all the mental factors in her great book ‘Cetasikas’ http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.htm (hard copy highly recommended,published by Zolag, available at Wisdom?? Meanwhile, do you have anything to share or comment on concerning ignorance or the Mahandidana intro? Metta, Sarah ===== 31454 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sankhara Hi Eznir, Again, we’ll be discussing sankhara in the context of D.O. in a week or two as it’s the second link. --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah, > E: I recognize Sankhara as dependent condition, when and where ever > it occurs in the Suttas. In the Culla Vedalla Sutta MN-44 the lay- > follower Visakha asks Bhikkuni Dhammadina this question "How many > formations(Sankhara) are there, what they are and why they are so > called?" .... I think we have to remember that sankhara has different meanings in different contexts which can be very confusing. For example, in DO it refers to wholesome and unwholesome kammic forming volitions whereas in ‘sabbe sankhara dhamma anicca etc’ it refers to all conditioned phenomena/realities. In other contexts, sankhara refers to the 50 mental factores included in sankhara khandha. So I think for each context we’d need to consider the meaning carefully. I just had a quick look at this sutta, for example, and BB gives detailed commentary notes. Perhaps we can discuss it and some of your other references further when we are discussing sankhara in DO? Meanwhile, you may find it helpful to look at: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sankhaara.htm Also, see posts under ‘sankhara’ in UP: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I’ll also keep your handy for when we are discussing this section of DO further. I need to follow some of your references and comments. Look forward to your further contributions in the meantime. Metta, Sarah ====== 31455 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack (Ken O. and Sarah), Jack I would like to comment on this part of your post. Ken O. has already responded, and I like his post very much. I had written a response yesterday, but decided against posting it. But now I am inspired by Ken, so I write a new one. > I was waiting in a hospital corridor for test results on my wife early this > morning. (The biopsy came out benign. Great news.) I was reading one of my > favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of Non-Attachment and > found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only perception that > is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. Thought distorts > reality and reality cannot be reached through thought. In the West particularly, > the way of thinking is used in the attempt to understand truth. This is like > scratching your foot when you have your shoe on. You do not scratch the skin, > but only the shoe. The intellect can touch only the symbol of truth but not the > truth itself. This is why we have so many difficulties in understanding the > truth. But when we give up this approach it is much easier. Intellectual people > find it very difficult to understand, because they try to reach the truth in > their own way. They want to reach the new, but carry with them the old > consciousness, which causes a reflection of the old on the new, distorting the > understanding and conditioning the consciousness till further, on a deeper level, by > the perversion of thought.â€? First of all, I am happy to hear that you have no cause for worry about your wife's health. :-) I went for a full check up myself two days ago, and the result was positive except for high cholesterol, and this too was lower than expected. I was expecting the doctor to give me a grim report, but apparently he extended my visa for some time. ;-) Like Ken said, it is not the question of perception, but ignorance. Ignorance conditions the perception. And here I would like to direct you to the dictionary meaning of vipallasa (perversion). vipallása: 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either of perception (saññá-vipallása), of consciousness (citta v.) or of views (ditthi-v.). And which are these four? To regard what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding); what is without a self (anattá) as a self; what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful'' (A. IV, 49). - See Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 31/32). p.5. "Of the perversions, the following are eliminated by the 1st path- knowledge (sotápatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the 3rd path-knowledge (anágámitá) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the 4th path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant" (Vis.M. XXII, 68). So from the above, it can be seen that `thought' is not the problem, but because of ignorance and accumulated tendencies, the perversion of views, perception and consciousness occurs. On the other hand, if ignorance is eradicated or is not there, then there is no perversion, as in moments of satipatthana. You may like to distinguish between two particular kinds of thought. Firstly I think it wrong to make such characterizations as east or west, it makes it harder to understand anything. Ignorance and wrong view is a reality not peculiar to any group of people (except when you differentiate between ariyans and worldlings). And there are many eastern philosophies making the same mistake as the western ones. And as you know, most Buddhists in Asia are as deluded as any western man. Why I stress this point, is because I see at the root of all `wrong thinking', ignorance and wrong view. Ignorance, through perversion, takes for real, i.e. having the characteristic of permanence and self, people and things existing in space and time. What then happens is that one looks to explain such perception, not being aware of any of the perversions. In addition some believing in objective reality of ugliness/beauty and of pleasure/pain as being inherent in those objects would likewise come up with ideas about such. With the wrong starting point, we then waste our whole lives accepting and rejecting viewpoints. I wouldn't say though, that this is like, "scratching your foot when you have your shoe on". I think more, that it is like scratching the head to relieve the itch on the foot. Now, the above author might say that his objection applies particularly to another kind of thinking, i.e. the kind that *knows* theoretically about the nature of reality. The good example of this is those of us on this list, who believe in Abhidhamma and don't believe in meditation or any idea of volitional practice. It is true, that the "symbol of truth" is not the "truth" itself. But without symbols we wouldn't ever know about our perversions, and what in fact are the objects of experience. Jack, I think the mistake most people make when they judge that the `word is not the reality', is that they would try to find a way to then come up with a method to experience reality without the interference of thought. But the perversion starts at a level long before any verbalization, and whether one knows it or not, there *is* concept making going on all the time. Besides, if one does not know that sati and panna are conditioned and not-self, one then wrongly thinks that all one needs to have is `sincere intention' to follow the Buddha's teachings (wrongly interpreted). But intention plays no part in the development of understanding. If one really understood how insidious and pervasive ignorance and lobha are, one wouldn't be so arrogant (by comparison) as to believe that one can give rise to sati and panna just by *trying*. The only sensible direction to take after realizing how little panna one has is to listen and study more the Teachings. In the process, one might come to also see, how right and therefore useful the commentaries are. The relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha may not appeal to many, or else it is misinterpreted in a way too suggest a "self" making a decision to forego of `theory' to then `apply'. This is because one has judged as the above author seems to have; that the former is `just words' and the latter is the `real thing'. Jack, we start from where we are, very slowly and very gradually. If indeed, we are deluded and wordy, it doesn't mean that we attempt to reach the `ideal' set by our ignorance, namely to `scratch the skin and not the shoe'. If shoes are all that we experience, then *know* that. This is the only way that "learning" and "development" happens. The very ignorance which has propelled us to follow those methods would be the one's that create the `illusion of result'. Don't fear theory, as Ken so much stresses, panna develops from that. Because panna, is *not* the words and explanations read and memorized, but the understanding of those words! And *this* is a wordless reality, with the characteristic of anatta. Like Ken, I would like to encourage you to consider more on what you read here with regard to normal everyday activity, and discourage any compartmentalizing. Don't feel discouraged simply because you can't understand anatta in the hustle and bustle of everyday life and in reaction be misguided into thinking that there is a special time and place for practice. Practice is about gradually knowing better and better our experiences *now*. Ideas about time and place further adds to ignorance and wrong view and takes us further from the goal. Hope I have said something useful. And if I have said anything that doesn't make sense, you or anyone else will correct me. ;-) Metta, Sukin. Ps: I see that Sarah has also responded, I will read her response later, after I have read at least 20 other posts ;-) 31456 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ================================ > In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, > phenomena > are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no > objects. > There is a mutaual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of > subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience > continued. ..... S: You'd have to give me a reference for these comments. There's always an object. Even lokuttara cittas (supramundane consciousness) has an object - that of nibbana. When wrong view is eradicated, visible objects, sounds and so on are experienced by consciousness just as now. No difference at all. I don't know if you have a hard copy of BB's transl of the Mahaanidaana sutta (which we've discussed a little before), but for those that have it, there's also a useful Appendix at the end with helpful details on the 24 paccaya (conditions). BB comments that the detail from the Patthana "reveals the vast range of the Suttanta principle and prevents simplistic reductionism in interpreting it." He gives a very brief summary of the conditions. Under 'object condition', we read: "An object condition is a phenomenon that serves as a condition for consciousness and its associated mental factors by being taken as their object. The object condition is sixfold as visible object, sound, smell, taste, tactile object, and purely mental object." This is true regardless of any sense of self or not. If it seems, otherwise, perhaps we should question our experience;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31457 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:55am Subject: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Group, Ajahn Jose wishes let everyone know that he is doing fine - he is very tired from the 'well-known' side effects of the chemotherapy, but is feeling much better now. He is confident that he will be well soon and wishes to thank everyone for their metta and support. He sends his blessings to all. metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31458 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:34am Subject: Adios Amigos! ;-0 Howdy All, I found out today that my laptop is too new to be repaired here in Cairo. They don't have the parts or the expertise to fix it. I will have to wait until I return to the US to get it fixed because I don't trust the workmanship here anymore. That means that I won't be able to participate anymore in this group for several months at least. I can't drop in occassionally and respond to a thread because then that upsets people when I don't know the entire backgroud of the thread (like Ken H. most recently). I will need to use my Internet time writing to my parents. So, anyway, have fun, take care, and good wishes to all. Metta, James 31459 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:53am Subject: The Buddha's Teachings On Pure Vipassanaa In Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:10:45 -0000 Subject: The Buddha's Teachings On Pure Vipassanaa In Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear dhamma friends How are you? The following is my answers to Phil regarding the Pali terms in Mahaasatipa.t.thana Suttam. I hope that they are useful for you,too. Suan Lu Zaw ____________-______ _______________ _________ Dear Phil, Nina and all How are you? Phil asked: "I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.")" The Pali term in the first quote is "Pajaanaati" and simply means "to know". The knowers of abhidhamma regard it as the action of the mind. On the other hand, the Pali term in the second quote is "Sampajaanakaarii" where "sampajaana" as a synonym of "paññaa" means wisdom. Thus, sampajaanakaarii would mean someone who is wise / prudent. Phil was also interested to know the significance of the following quote: "Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..."" The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati". We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! The main verb under consideration is "anupassii" from "Kaayaanupassii". Thus, "anupassii" means "someone who observes" and the verb "anupassati, to observe" is the action of the mind. In passing, practitioners who observe their bodily postures are pure practitioners of vipassanaa (see the Pali term "Kaayaanupassii"), and can attain near-jhaana samaadhi (upacaarasamaadhi) at the maximum which is adequate for attainment of any path insight (maggañaa.na) from Sotaapanna level through to the Arahant level. Near-jhaana samaadhi is just before the First Ruupaavacara Jhaana, and thus we know for sure that the Buddha in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam clearly taught how to attain the Arahant awakening without first having Samatha Jhaanas (Ruupaavacara Jhaanas). It is a pity that some people persist in their misguided narrow views on the roles of worldly Jhaanas (Samatha Jhaanas) without making genuine efforts to understand Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam as the Buddha's teachings on purely Vipassanaa practice. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- "Philip" wrote: Hello all I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of the satipatthana sutta. I'll be reading the archive posts on it, but in the meantime there is a question I'd like to ask you. I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.") Do you think there is an important distinction here? Is it just that the latter is intransitive? (doesn't take an object.) Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..." that appears repeatedly *after* references to "discern" or "makes himself alert." Do you think the "in this way" suggests that "remains focussed internally" is a *result* of discerning and making oneself alert, or is "remains focussed internally" just another phrase that means the same thing as "discern" and "makes himself fully alert." I suppose "discern" is a momentary rising of awareness, and "makes himself alert" is somehow more intentional and "remains focussed internally" is somehow more sustained. That's the way it sounds to this beginner, anyways. I guess I should compare more than one translation, the way I do with the Dhammapada, but for the time being I am only using the translation available at access to insight. Thanks in advance for any guidance here. Metta, Phil ------ End of Forwarded Message 31460 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Adios Amigos! ;-0 Howdy James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Howdy All, > > I found out today that my laptop is too new to be repaired here in > Cairo. They don't have the parts or the expertise to fix it. I > will have to wait until I return to the US to get it fixed because I > don't trust the workmanship here anymore. .... I'm really sorry to hear this. I know how much you rely on your laptop, even for teaching. ... That means that I won't > be able to participate anymore in this group for several months at > least. I can't drop in occassionally and respond to a thread > because then that upsets people when I don't know the entire > backgroud of the thread (like Ken H. most recently). .... Don't mind Ken H.....just another Ken with a loud bark, but just as lovable;-) I'll certainly be very glad if you drop in on any of my posts or threads I'm involved in anytime. .... I will need to > use my Internet time writing to my parents. .... Well it's always important to give parents priority and we know how much it means to yours, James. .... >So, anyway, have fun, > take care, and good wishes to all. .... I really hope something works out or someway to fix your computer. In the meantime, pls drop in with occasional notes or comments or just a reference to a sutta is fine - like in SN, if you give a ref, we can check ourselves. Metta, Sarah p.s I didn't mind your last post to me at all. I just smiled;-) Hope you can follow the list even if only able to post occasionally. ======= 31461 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Clinging to views (anecdote) Hi,Phil - Thank you for this, a very nice story, with insightful comments,and interestingly written! With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/18/04 1:16:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hello all. > > I'd like to tell you all a funny story that keeps coming to mind > every day recently, because of the shifts of understanding I've been > having recently. > > There is no need to hold on to views about such a silly thing. > Now, with dhamma, I am learning so much, so quickly. Some of it > very contrary. Sati is a rare experience that rises in a conditioned > way. Sati is a common experience, that starts like indiviual drops of > water from a kettle spout, and then as the kettle is tilted, becomes > a steady pour. (the latter is Ajaan Chah) And except for that brief > bit of bad behaviour last week, I am exercising the > same willingness to yield to which ever view of things I come across. > Of course, that's not what the Buddha taught. He said to doubt > everything. But I think we can doubt, even while yielding. > So that was my funny clinging to views anecdote. And you see how > awash with hostility I was just a few short years ago. (Thanks again > to brahma-viharas for getting me out of that mess.) > Metta, > Phil > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31462 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/18/04 2:37:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Ken, our ordinary state is not one of heightened > >concentration, calm,and mindfulness, and thus our picking up on the > nature of phenomena is not as acute as in a suitably altered state. > There is a degree of cultivation possible during formal meditation > which is not possible at other times, and carrying that out makes > our mindfulness practice at ordinary times more effective. > Obviously, the ideal is to be "practicing" at all times. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > K: Why there is a need for a heightened concentration, calm and > mindfulness. I dont think when Buddha say let us restrain in our six > senses, it required a heigthened state. Likewise when you see the > satipatthana sutta the begining, breathing in long.... rapture... > equanmity, all these are not heigthen state. How does your > perposition being consistent with satipatthana and the six senses. > Other than jhanas and the superpowers attain, I dont think there are > heighten states. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, in all honesty, I find your position on this to be unfathomable. How heightened calm, concentration, and mindfulness would not assist in our knowing of how things are escapes me entirely! It is obvious, and the answer is "for the same reason as biologists use microscopes and astronomers use telescopes and the Buddha (said he) used the 4th jhana." In any case, our positions on this issue are so far apart as to suggest to me the prudence in simply leaving matters with "Each will believe what he believes." -------------------------------------------------------- > > Ken O > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31463 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/18/04 4:49:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >================================ > > In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, > >phenomena > >are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no > >objects. > >There is a mutaual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of > >subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience > >continued. > ..... > S: You'd have to give me a reference for these comments. There's always an > object. Even lokuttara cittas (supramundane consciousness) has an object - > that of nibbana. When wrong view is eradicated, visible objects, sounds > and so on are experienced by consciousness just as now. No difference at > all. > > ========================== I find this amusing, Sarah, the presentation as granite-engraved edict that there "always is an object." How edifying to know that someone has said so in some book somewhere. You ask for a reference. The reference is my direct experience of no subject and no objects, but experience nonetheless. This is all the reference that I require. (I could go on with a discussion of how, in the unravelling phases of D.O., the cessation of vi~n~nana conditions the cessation of namarupa, and point out how this could only reasonably mean that with the cessation of (sense of) knowing subject there occurs the cessation of known objects, but any such discussion becomes irrelevant when one has directly experienced a state of neither subject nor object.) As far as your requirements are concerned I can't say, but the following line of thinking does occur: You believe, I think, that there is, in reality, no knowing subject. Now I'm not clear on what you consider 'object' or 'arammana' to mean, but I assume that you consider subject and object to be mutually dependent. If you do, then with no subject there is no object. If, on the other hand, you treat the word 'object' to mean nothing more than "phenomenon" or "(content of) experience", then yes, experience of a nondual sort, continues even when there is no sense of subject and its objects, and there is content to such experience, but I would consider defining 'arammana' as "experience" to be an inadequate and misleading definition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31464 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Adios Amigos! ;-0 Hi, James - In a message dated 3/18/04 5:37:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howdy All, > > I found out today that my laptop is too new to be repaired here in > Cairo. They don't have the parts or the expertise to fix it. I > will have to wait until I return to the US to get it fixed because I > don't trust the workmanship here anymore. That means that I won't > be able to participate anymore in this group for several months at > least. I can't drop in occassionally and respond to a thread > because then that upsets people when I don't know the entire > backgroud of the thread (like Ken H. most recently). I will need to > use my Internet time writing to my parents. So, anyway, have fun, > take care, and good wishes to all. > > Metta, James > ============================ Sorry about this! I would prefer that you did drop in on the group discussions occasionally,even if you don't know full backgound, but if not, please do keep in touch off list. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31465 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Sarah (& Howard), > S: You'd have to give me a reference for these comments. I think the Kalaka Sutta is pretty relevant to what Howard is talking about. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing.... "When sensing.... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. Regards, Swee Boon 31466 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Ken, Thank you for typing out the passages! And no, I don't have the Dispeller of Delusion. Regards, Swee Boon 31467 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Dear Swee Boon (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/18/04 8:44:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Sarah (& Howard), > > >S: You'd have to give me a reference for these comments. > > I think the Kalaka Sutta is pretty relevant to what Howard is talking > about. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html > > "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't > construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He > doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > > "When hearing.... > > "When sensing.... > > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object > as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe > an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. > > Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all > phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, &cognized -- is 'Such.' > And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ================================= Thank you for the kind and to-the-point assist, Swee Boon! It happens that this sutta is one of my favorites, but I didn't even think of it! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31468 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:47am Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Htoo, > This is not a comment. But a question. What are the 6 higher > knowledges? They are: (1) wields manifold supranormal powers (mundane), (2) divine ear-element (mundane), (3) knows the awareness of other beings (mundane), (4) recollects his manifold past lives (mundane), (5) sees beings passing away & re-appearing (mundane), and (6) ending of the mental effluents (supramundane), as listed at the end of that very sutta. Regards, Swee Boon 31469 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard and (Jeff Brooks) You have to be patient with me, because I am a very long winded person like Sukin :-). I am not here to say I am right or you are wrong. I just like to share with you what I have gather on the little details about jhanas. MN 26, The Noble Search. "Thus Alara Kalama, my teacher placed me his pupil on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occured to me: 'This dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reapperance in the base of nothingness" [Base of nothingness is an immaterial state and only can be access through arupa jhanas] Then again Buddha go to Rama and learn neither-preception-nor-non-preception [also another immaterial state and can only be access through arupa jhanas]. Sutta MN 8 Effacement. 4. "It is possible here, Cunda that quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He might think thus: "I am abidhing in effacement." But it is not these attainments that are called "effacement" in the Noble One Disciple: These are called pleasant abidings here and not' in the Noble One's Discipline." Then later in the sutta Buddha described the effacement like not to be cruel, no killing etc... (44 in all) Then again in The Noble Search MN 26 at para 33, As to those recluses and brahims who are not tie to the five cords of sensual pleasure, who are not infatuated with them or utterly commited to them, who use them seeing the danger in them and understanding the escape from them, it may undersand of them.......... then to para 35, Again with the stilling of applied thought etc... is all about jhanas. By the above quotes, I established that without insight, jhana is basically useless. It is only together with insight with jhanas that our mind become invisible to Maras. Then again it is not about development of jhanas first, it is always point to development of sila, restraining of the six senses that comes first, before jhanas. So mindfulness and insight are vehicles before we talk about jhanas. Even if one look at Mindfullness suttas, there are always after mental objects or consciousness, it is the establishment of mindfullness of the five aggregates before one enter jhanas. We can also conclude, without insight there will no understanding of dhamma, so attaining 4th jhanas will not make one more insightful or clearer or sharper or more comprehenable. Ken O 31470 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Swee Boon Since you dont have it, you are most welcome to can ask for more details again and again, and I will type it out for you. You help me in doing some dhamma dana ;-) - Chicken soup for the Soul. Other than Visud, I think Dispeller of Delusion (two books in PTS) is a good book to get, easy to read and with lots of goodies (it has dependent origination, right effort etc). Ken O p.s. I dont earn commission from PTS ;-). 31471 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Sarah and Howard It is just plain anatta. It is not about even about there is no objects etc. Doesn't construe an object as seen, means there is no I that is seeing or a self concept. He does not construe an unseen - that shows the another extreme - nihilistic. He doesn't construe a seer - Anatta ;-) Ken O 31472 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/18/04 9:33:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Sarah and Howard > > It is just plain anatta. It is not about even about there is no > objects etc. > > Doesn't construe an object as seen, means there is no I that is > seeing or a self concept. > > He does not construe an unseen - that shows the another extreme - > nihilistic. > > He doesn't construe a seer - Anatta ;-) > > > Ken O > ======================== Did you ever notice how we worldlings tend to exclude parts of things we find unappealing? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31473 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard > ======================== > Did you ever notice how we worldlings tend to exclude parts > of things we find unappealing? ;-) K: It comes as a package ;-) Ken O 31474 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi,Ken (and Jeff) - Jeff can speak for himself on this. I, for one, have never said nor do I believe that jhanas are sufficient for liberation. So, as far as I am involved here, this is a straw man. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/18/04 9:14:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard and (Jeff Brooks) > > You have to be patient with me, because I am a very long winded > person like Sukin :-). I am not here to say I am right or you are > wrong. I just like to share with you what I have gather on the > little details about jhanas. > > MN 26, The Noble Search. > "Thus Alara Kalama, my teacher placed me his pupil on an equal > footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it > occured to me: 'This dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to > dispassion, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to > Nibbana, but only to reapperance in the base of nothingness" [Base > of nothingness is an immaterial state and only can be access through > arupa jhanas] > Then again Buddha go to Rama and learn > neither-preception-nor-non-preception [also another immaterial state > and can only be access through arupa jhanas]. > > Sutta MN 8 Effacement. > 4. "It is possible here, Cunda that quite secluded from sensual > pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon > and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and > sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He > might think thus: "I am abidhing in effacement." But it is not these > attainments that are called "effacement" in the Noble One Disciple: > These are called pleasant abidings here and not' in the Noble One's > Discipline." > Then later in the sutta Buddha described the effacement like not to > be cruel, no killing etc... (44 in all) > > Then again in The Noble Search MN 26 > at para 33, As to those recluses and brahims who are not tie to the > five cords of sensual pleasure, who are not infatuated with them or > utterly commited to them, who use them seeing the danger in them and > understanding the escape from them, it may undersand of > them.......... > then to para 35, Again with the stilling of applied thought etc... > is all about jhanas. > > By the above quotes, I established that without insight, jhana is > basically useless. It is only together with insight with jhanas that > our mind become invisible to Maras. Then again it is not about > development of jhanas first, it is always point to development of > sila, restraining of the six senses that comes first, before jhanas. > So mindfulness and insight are vehicles before we talk about jhanas. > Even if one look at Mindfullness suttas, there are always after > mental objects or consciousness, it is the establishment of > mindfullness of the five aggregates before one enter jhanas. We can > also conclude, without insight there will no understanding of dhamma, > so attaining 4th jhanas will not make one more insightful or clearer > or sharper or more comprehenable. > > > Ken O > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31475 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Sarah, Thanks for this message. I think it would be skillful to keep these eight principles/criteria in mind in recognizing the Dhamma. Going through the study guide is one way to get to know these eight principles such that one can determine for him or herself whether some qualities one may know are the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > > > > to passion, not to dispassion; > > to being fettered, not to being unfettered; > > to accumulating, not to shedding; > > to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; > > to discontent, not to contentment; > > to entanglement, not to seclusion; > > to laziness, not to aroused persistence; > > to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': > > You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the > > Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' > .... > S: In other words, these states lead to continuation of the cycle. > Accumulating (accayaaya). Mahapajapati Gotami attained arahantship on > hearing this sutta. She understood the deep meaning. Her lifestyle as a > nun didn't change, but her wisdom fully penetrated the full meaning of > `being fettered', `entanglement', `burdensome' and so on. These all refer > to mental states. > .... > > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > > > > to dispassion, not to passion; > <...> > > > > > > So it is based on these eight pairs of principles or criteria, one > > can examine for him or herself whether something is the Dhamma, the > > Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. As I see it, 'these qualities' > > in the passage has much broader meaning than 'what is being said.' > .... > S: I agree. We could discuss each one, looking at the Pali term. We've > already discussed the meaning of seclusion (pavivekaaya) before. > .... > > They include one's actions and conduct, skillful or unskillful. > > They also include the principle in accordance or not in accordance > > to the principle of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. > .... > S:As on the discussion of guarding the senses, I see them as referring to > mental states which of course may lead to actions and conduct. In > Mahapajapati Gotami's case, she understand and eradicated the most subtle > attachments. > .... > > The objective for this study is twofold: > > > > First, to know these eight principles. > > > > Secondly, to apply these eight principles. > .... > S:How are they known and applied? Again,when you mention `apply', it > sounds like something to be done rather than understood. > .... > > The study guide provides guidance and structure in this study with > > passages from the discourses. We can discuss and verify these > > principles in relation to the discourse passages. > .... > S:Good. Should be then consider these `principles' further, one at a time? > .... > >We can also come > > up with our own examples (such as thoughts about Mel Gibson in > > shower) such that we can apply these eight principles. If you like, > > we can also examine some doctrines in the Abhidhamma Pitaka with > > respect to the eight principles. > .... > S:The single most important point is to understand these qualities as > anatta, arising or not arising according to conditions as others have > said. I don't understand Mahapajapati to have `applied' anything, but to > have understood the true meaning of the words. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 31476 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Sarah, Sukin and all, There is one point I still don't understand about your position. In your system, how do you convert conceptual knowledge to experiential knowledge? Am I incorrect in saying that you would answer that repeatedly studying the teachings (conceptual knowledge) results eventually in experiential knowledge? And, trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing it involves trying and shouldn't be attempted? Jack 31477 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:00am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Ken O, Indeed the body is destined to die and decay and reflection on this theme is skillful, leading to dispassion in body! There is simply great danger in sensual pleasures! You wrote: There are quite a number of sutta on keep control of faculties. Basically I think in order to keep control, one must be mindful of our mental objects and mind. Please elaborate more on that! Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > > > > With respect to the eight principles/criteria, what do you think > > are the qualities present in these sutta passages such that one > may > > definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is > > the Teacher's instruction'? In particular, for that one may know > > in these sutta passages , by which criteria may one definitely > hold > > thus? > > k: It is not easy at times to say this is vinaya or this is Teacher > instructions because Vinaya is also Teacher instruction. > Nevertheless let deal specifically with 1.4 and 1.5. > > <<'What do you assume of any essence, > here in this cemetery grower, filled with corpses, > this body destined to break up? > What do you see when you look at me, > you who are out of your mind?'>> > > < when devoid of dhammas doesn't function. > When, devoid of dhammas, it doesn't function, > in what will the mind there make its home? > Like a mural you've seen, painted on a wall, > smeared with yellow orpiment, > there your vision has been distorted, > meaningless your human perception. > Like an evaporated mirage, > like a tree of gold in a dream, > like a magic show in the midst of a crowd -- > you run blind after what is unreal. > Resembling a ball of sealing wax, > set in a hollow, > with a bubble in the middle > and bathed with tears, > eye secretions are born there too: > The parts of the eye > are rolled all together > in various ways.'>> > > IMHO - These two part indicate the teacher instruction in dispassion > with the body. The body is destined to die and decay. We can > comtemplating cemetary, consider and reflecting that body is make up > of the four elements or comtemplate as body parts. All these are > found in satipatthana sutta. > > As for 1.5 - the significant instructions will be > < much as glance at her or say even a word.>> > > There are quite a number of sutta on keep control of faculties. > Basically I think in order to keep control, one must be mindful of > our mental objects and mind. > > > Ken O 31478 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:06am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, > And, trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing > it involves trying and shouldn't be attempted? There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. You can't try. Is there anything more defeating than this sort of view? And what is the result when such a sort of view becomes entrenched? Non-action. Instead of pursuing the goal, they thought the goal would pursue them. Regards, Swee Boon 31479 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:11am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Jon, Thanks for sharing your thought. I would think that it is impossible for one to eradicate greed, aversion, and delusion without keeping control of one's faculties. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor & Ken O > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > > > Thank you for your detail answer. From passage § 1.5., what the > > woman did in front of Ven. Anuruddha obviously leads to passion, > > not dispassion. One thing I see as the Vinaya that leads to > > dispassion, > > as Ven. Anuruddha demonstrated, is 'keeping control of his > > faculties, didn't as much as glance at her or say even a word.' > > I'm wondering if this the same Ven Anuruddha as the famous arahant > (and cousin of the Buddha). If so, the control over the faculties > would be explained by the fact that all tendency to akusala had been > eradicated. > > Jon 31480 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi,Swee Boon (and Jack) - In a message dated 3/18/04 12:11:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. > There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to > control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there > isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. > You can't try. > ========================= The statements "There is no self that controls anything" and "There can't be control" are not equivalent - the first does not imply the second. Analogously, there is no self that sees anything, yet there is seeing; there is no self that tastes anything yet there is tasting; and so on, for all the sense domains. There is no absolute control of things, but volition arises and has influence - and that does not require a self. Taking 'control' to mean merely 'influence', what is true as I see it is that there is no self who controls anything, but there *is* control. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31481 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:34am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.1, § 3.2) § 3.1. Jenta: I was drunk with the intoxication of my birth, wealth, & sovereignty. Drunk with the intoxication of my body's build, coloring, & form, I wandered about, regarding no one as my equal or better, foolish, arrogant, haughty, my banner held high. I -- disrespectful, arrogant, proud -- bowed down to no one, not even mother, father, or those commonly held in respect. Then -- seeing the ultimate leader, supreme, foremost of charioteers, like a blazing sun, arrayed with a squadron of monks -- casting away pride & intoxication through an awareness serene & clear, I bowed down my head to him, supreme among all living beings. Haughtiness & contempt have been abandoned -- rooted out -- the conceit "I am" is extracted, all forms of pride, destroyed. [Thag VI.9] § 3.2. Sister Vimala: Intoxicated with my complexion figure, beauty, & fame; haughty with youth, I despised other women. Adorning this body embellished to delude foolish men, I stood at the door to the brothel: a hunter with snare laid out. I showed off my ornaments, and revealed many a private part. I worked my manifold magic, laughing out loud at the crowd. Today, wrapped in a double cloak, my head shaven, having wandered for alms, I sit at the foot of a tree and attain the state of no-thought. All ties -- human & divine -- have been cut. Having cast off all effluents, cooled am I, unbound. [Thig V.2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding 31482 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/18/04 11:11:46 AM Central Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > And, trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing > it involves trying and shouldn't be attempted? There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. You can't try Swee Boon, There is no self but there is right intention and right effort. The suttas are full of instructions that, as I understand it, we should try to follow. Take the 8-Fold Path for instance. I would think we are supposed to try not to kill, lie, misuse intoxicants, etc. Yes, at a point in our development, we are to leave all striving behind. But, I think the Buddha gave instructions that also apply to earlier stages in our mental development. And, I think we, unless we are pretty far advanced, go back and forth daily in stages of our development. That is, there are times when we just have to try to follow the precepts and times we can just do something without striving. Another way to say it is that striving is like using a thorn to remove a thorn in our skin. Once we have removed the thorn in our skin, we throw both thorns away. Jack 31483 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.1, § 3.2) Hi, Victor - In a message dated 3/18/04 12:40:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding ============================ Wonderful, Victor, thank you! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31484 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:50am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.1, § 3.2) Hi all, Couple questions came to mind when I read passages § 3.1 and § 3.2: 1. What does it mean by 'shedding'? 2. What is it that was being shed? 3. What is the Pali original for the word 'shedding'? It seems to me that by shedding, one rids, discards, cast off something. In passage § 3.1., it seems to me that the shedding of haughtiness & contempt, the conceit "I am", and all forms of pride is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. And that kind of shedding is again reflected in passage § 3.2. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 3.1. > Jenta: > I was > drunk with the intoxication > of my birth, wealth, & sovereignty. > Drunk with the intoxication > of my body's build, coloring, & form, > I wandered about, > regarding no one > as my equal or better, > foolish, arrogant, haughty, > my banner held high. > I -- disrespectful, arrogant, proud -- > bowed down to no one, > not even mother, > father, > or those commonly held > in respect. > Then -- seeing the ultimate leader, > supreme, foremost of charioteers, > like a blazing sun, > arrayed with a squadron of monks -- > casting away pride & intoxication > through an awareness serene & clear, > I bowed down > my > head > to him, supreme > among all living beings. > > Haughtiness & contempt > have been abandoned > -- rooted out -- > the conceit "I am" is extracted, > all forms of pride, destroyed. > > > [Thag VI.9] > > > § 3.2. > Sister Vimala: > Intoxicated with my complexion > figure, beauty, & fame; > haughty with youth, > I despised other women. > Adorning this body > embellished to delude foolish men, > I stood at the door to the brothel: > a hunter with snare laid out. > I showed off my ornaments, > and revealed many a private part. > I worked my manifold magic, > laughing out loud at the crowd. > Today, wrapped in a double cloak, > my head shaven, > having wandered for alms, > I sit at the foot of a tree > and attain the state of no-thought. > All ties -- human & divine -- have been cut. > Having cast off all effluents, > cooled am I, unbound. > > > [Thig V.2] > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding 31485 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:55am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.1, § 3.2) Hi all, Reading the both passages again, it seems to me that it is also the intoxication that was being shed. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > Couple questions came to mind when I read passages § 3.1 and § 3.2: > > 1. What does it mean by 'shedding'? > 2. What is it that was being shed? > 3. What is the Pali original for the word 'shedding'? > > It seems to me that by shedding, one rids, discards, cast off > something. In passage § 3.1., it seems to me that the shedding of > haughtiness & contempt, the conceit "I am", and all forms of pride > is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. And that kind > of shedding is again reflected in passage § 3.2. > > Metta, > Victor > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > § 3.1. > > Jenta: > > I was > > drunk with the intoxication > > of my birth, wealth, & sovereignty. > > Drunk with the intoxication > > of my body's build, coloring, & form, > > I wandered about, > > regarding no one > > as my equal or better, > > foolish, arrogant, haughty, > > my banner held high. > > I -- disrespectful, arrogant, proud -- > > bowed down to no one, > > not even mother, > > father, > > or those commonly held > > in respect. > > Then -- seeing the ultimate leader, > > supreme, foremost of charioteers, > > like a blazing sun, > > arrayed with a squadron of monks -- > > casting away pride & intoxication > > through an awareness serene & clear, > > I bowed down > > my > > head > > to him, supreme > > among all living beings. > > > > Haughtiness & contempt > > have been abandoned > > -- rooted out -- > > the conceit "I am" is extracted, > > all forms of pride, destroyed. > > > > > > [Thag VI.9] > > > > > > § 3.2. > > Sister Vimala: > > Intoxicated with my complexion > > figure, beauty, & fame; > > haughty with youth, > > I despised other women. > > Adorning this body > > embellished to delude foolish men, > > I stood at the door to the brothel: > > a hunter with snare laid out. > > I showed off my ornaments, > > and revealed many a private part. > > I worked my manifold magic, > > laughing out loud at the crowd. > > Today, wrapped in a double cloak, > > my head shaven, > > having wandered for alms, > > I sit at the foot of a tree > > and attain the state of no-thought. > > All ties -- human & divine -- have been cut. > > Having cast off all effluents, > > cooled am I, unbound. > > > > > > [Thig V.2] > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding 31486 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:02am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.3) Hi all, Passage § 3.3 is rather long, and I have yet to read it through more closely. Please share your understanding on this passage in relation to the principle/criteria on shedding. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding Metta, Victor 31487 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: charact. of rupas, no 1. charact. of rupas, no 1. Characteristics inherent in all Rúpas Rúpas do not arise singly, they arise in different groups (kalåpas). The different groups of rúpa which arise do not fall away immediately. A sabhåva rúpa, a rúpa with its own distinct nature of characteristic lasts as long as the duration of seventeen cittas arising and falling away, succeeding one another. With regard to the arising and falling away of rúpa, four different aspects can be discerned which have been classified as four lakkhana rúpas (lakkhana means characteristic): arising or origination (upacaya) continuity or development (santati) decay or ageing (jaratå) falling away or impermanence (aniccatå) These four lakkhana rúpas which are themselves rúpas without their own distinct nature, asabhåva rúpas, are characteristics inherent in all sabhåva rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature. These four characteristics are different: the arising of rúpa, its development, its decay and its falling away. Origination, upacaya rúpa, and continuity, santati rúpa, are characteristics indicating the moments rúpa has arisen but not yet fallen away, whereas decay, jaratå rúpa, indicates the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccatå rúpa, the moment of its falling away. We do not notice that the rúpas of our body fall away and that time and again new rúpas are produced which fall away again. So long as we are alive, kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition produce rúpas and thus our bodily functions can continue. The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch II, 327) speaks in a general, conventional sense about the four characteristics of rúpa. It does not deal with the four characteristics of rúpa which denote the arising, the continuity, the decay and the falling away during the period one group of rúpas lasts. It states that there is the arising of groups of rúpas at the first moment of life, initial arising, ³integration² or ³accumulation², and that there is after that the subsequent arising of groups of rúpas, ³continuity². Nina. Search. Compare. Save. 31488 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Larry and Ken O, I appreciate Larry's good question and Ken's answer. May I add something? If nama and rupa are not known through insight, their impermanence cannot be realized and thus they cannot be seen as dukkha. For example, seeing is different from thinking of what we see. We are confused as to what nama is and what rupa is. If this confusion continues, we shall stay immersed in the cycle. Lobha, the cause of dukkha can only be understood by awareness and understanding of lobha of this moment. Not lobha of the past or the future. When there is ignorance we do not know what the right Path is and what the wrong Path. Then there is no way to develop insight and realize the first and the second noble Truth. And no way to reach the goal, nibbana, the end of dukkha. op 18-03-2004 03:04 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: (snipped) IMHO it > is not understanding that craving for existence, worldlings like me > still wonder in cycles. So that is why the citta for rebirth linking > is always lobha-mula citta (lobha + moha). Buddha seeks enlighetment > bc he knows this craving is the initial impetus that drive us all to > the mass of suffering, if there is no rebirth, where is there ageing, > sickness and death. So the crux is getting rid of craving of > existence ;-), so specifically 4NT and not others. 31489 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 18-03-2004 03:19 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: L: If groups are concepts does space separate concepts? N: Another rupa space has the function of being in between groups so that they are distinct. We cannot say that space separates concepts, it separates rupas, rupas that are holding together in clusters, but they are as real as can be! It is useful to know that groups originated by the four factors support one another. There is no owner of the body, but intricate factors make it function and move around. Why do we learn all those details about groups? The goal is detachment, detachment from I or mine. If we keep on asking ourselves: are groups concepts or realities, many problems and doubts are bound to arise. At this moment we can learn what coarse rupas are, like seeing that arises all the time, or visible object. We learn details just to know more about conditions, and this will lead to detachment. It is helpful to know that there are four factors that originate different rupas, and that rupas do not arise just by themselves, but together with other rupas; that the four great Elements are never lacking, that different groups are holding together. You do not need to think of groups or use the word group. The fact that they are clutching together in groups does not make them less real: they still have each their own characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, don't they? If we do not forget the goal and if we begin to learn more about the rupas that can be experienced at this moment, doubts will disappear. L: Neither of you has ever experienced a group while I _only_ experience groups. When you look at this email what do you see, one dot of light after another? N: Let us talk more about seeing. When you close your eyes and then open them, is there any difference? Through eyesense only colour or visible objects appears. We do not think of dots, that is thinking conditioned by what we know from science. Noticing a whole, an image, is not seeing but thinking. You say that you just experience groups, but here, group or mass is used in a different sense, it is not kalapa. You mean the image of a whole. You cannot see kalapas nor touch them, too slight, and they last only seventeen moments of citta (except the intimations). Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking, they are all elements devoid of self. We do not define all the time what is seen, we do not think all the time, this is a tree, this is a tree. There are also moments of just seeing, no thinking. You may believe that you see a particular object, like a tree, but is there not also background colour? We do not have to think of tree or background, but all that is visible can be seen. A person is not seen. Impossible that a person impinges on eyesense, how could he contact eyesense? But to apply this knowledge is difficult, because insight has to be developed. The same in the case of hearing. You think of sound of traffic, but you do not think all the time, this is sound of traffic. There are also moments of just hearing, hearing of what impinges on the earsense. Many moments pass unnoticed, but since we are discussing such realities, sometimes a moment of understanding may arise. That is the way to begin, and you will see, doubts just disappear. I feel that it is very useful, also for myself, to discuss the above subjects. Welcome if you have more questions on seeing, hearing, etc. Nina. P.S. I do not intend to translate more of the Tiika on lightness. Meanwhile, welcome if you have more on lightness. As to the next subject: char of rupas, I have a lot about this in my Rupas, too long for one Email, it will be in four parts. I avoid any long Emails. 31490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Dear Philip, op 17-03-2004 23:40 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >I think it's good for me to stay open to both ways of seeing sati. N: Yes, try them out. PH: Quotes: Lobha can come in very > easily. > P: This I can see, and it is why I admire your way of practicing. > Rigorous and pure. I think I am getting better at questioning role of > self in anything I do. N: Don't give me any credit. I am just learning, ups and downs!! P:The process of unravelling the tight hold of > self has definitely begun in earnest. So I'll be careful however I > cultivate sati that it does not become another exericse in self- > preservation the way my brahma-viharas was. N: But together with satipatthana the development of the brahma-viharas becomes most effective, most helpful in your dealings with others. Speaking of practice, I find the Kindred Sayings IV (Salayatanavagga) very impressive and straightforward. We learn about all the objects appearing through the six doorways. It is good to combine Sutta and Abhidhamma, the Abhidhamma helps to understand the deep meaning of the sutta. Nina. 31491 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Sarah, There are different ways to do aerobic exercise. If one has knee problem and finds running on threadmill not suitable, he or she can also try swimming. If you have knee problem and cannot sit in half-lotus or full-lotus or even loosely cross-leg posture, then sitting on chair with back straight would also be fine. The point is to keep the body in a rather still posture to calm the bodily and mental fabrications. Discernment requires a mind that is calm, purified, refined. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > Have you ever worked out by running on a threadmill? > <...> > > To do aerobic exercise, one exercise one's body. > .... > S:I didn't forget the treadmill....I agree it's a good kind of exercise > for those who don't have knee problems like me. > > Now if you tell me your aim is to exercise your body and to get fit, I'd > say `go ahead' as I do to my friends at the gym. However, if you were to > tell me your purpose was to realize the 4NT, I'd say `wait a moment. Show > me the connection'. > .... > >To meditate, one > > develops and cultivates one's mind. Running on the threadmill might > > look silly or simply wrong to some, but there is a purpose for doing > > so. Just like there is a purpose for meditation: to develop and > > cultivate one's mind. > .... > S: Here, I assume you're referring to `formal' or `sitting' meditation. > > Again, if you were to tell me that your purpose was to have a quiet break > in the day, to develop your breathing practice for health benefits or > yoga, or to give the keyboard a rest, I'd say `go ahead' as I do to my > yoga friends. > > However, when you say that the purpose is to develop and cultivate your > mind, again, I'd say `wait a moment. Show me the connection'. How can 'any > meditation technique' result in wisdom and knowledge of the 4NT, just > because this is one's aim? [snip] 31492 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/18/04 3:35:17 AM Central Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: Jack I would like to comment on this part of your post. Ken O. has already responded, and I like his post very much. I had written a response yesterday, but decided against posting it. But now I am inspired by Ken, so I write a new one. Sukin, I have read your post several times. While I hold a different understanding on almost all the points you present, I don't have time right now to respond. I will try and cut your points down to a more manageable number and respond back in the near future. I didn't want you to think I was being rude and not responding. Jack 31493 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta , the processes. Hi Christine, A vivid and neat explanation of the processes. A good reminder as well! Appreciating, Nina. op 17-03-2004 22:01 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > It's called the 'One by One as they Arise' method. I open my hard > copy of The Great Discourse on Causation p.1 of 43 of the > Introduction, visible object fills my sight. After trillions of > sense and mind door processes, I recognise a letter. After a whole > lot of other mystifying processes, a finger presses on a keyboard and > Lo! the very same letter appears on the screen. [repeat this about > 944,000 times] then go through more mystifiying processes to connect > to the internet and send to dsg. Cheaper than pdf. :-) 31494 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Sukin and all, Instead of responding to your post point by point, I picked what I thought to be the important points and tried to answer. I think you are misreading the Cycle of Dependent Origination (DO). DO doesn’ t begin with ignorance and end with decay and death. It is a cycle. Each element influences the next with decay and death influencing ignorance as the wheel turns. Mental formations that occur influence the next cycle’s ignorance element. Thoughts, intentions and the decisions we make are very important and can be a problem. I think we can know our perversions without the use of symbols. If we are mindful, we see how X causes Y, a perversion causes suffering. We don’t have to use a symbol for either X or Y. It is like riding a bike. We learn by seeing how a given action causes certain results. We don’t use symbols in learning how to ride a bike. Symbols make it easier, in my opinion, but aren’t necessary to understand how a perversion causes suffering. Intention does play a part in the development of understanding. Intention drives kamma. Past kamma causes the first elements of a Cycle of DO up to vedana. Past kamma can influence the mental formations that occur after vedana in a cycle of DO. So, intention does influence understanding. In this case, I am defining understanding as insight into the causation of suffering. I am reading your post to say that experiencing an ultimate has to involve a concept. I don’t think that is what the Buddha had in mind. I think it is very difficult to develop understanding if we only scratch the shoe, i.e., don’t go right to reality and compare it with our concepts. Even if it is possible, it is not the method suggested by the Buddha who continually suggested that his teachings were to be tested by our own actual experience. You seem to be implying the opposite, i.e., actual experience isn't required. Sorry if I misunderstood you in any of the points addressed above. jack 31495 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Nina, If I don't see an image, what do I see? I certainly don't see only red then only blue. Furthermore, I think it is not useful to isolate experience, focusing only on one little touch separate from all else. If we don't see relationships we won't be aware of conditional relations. Without an awareness of conditional relations there is no cessation. Conditional relations is a supramundane mind-door object but they could also be a mundane mind-door object. As far as I know concept is not an object of mundane insight; so conditional relations (and other relations such as complex external objects) are not concepts when they are objects of mundane insight. Larry 31496 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Vism.XIV 66 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 66. 20. 'Growth of matter' has the characteristic of setting up. Its function is to make material instances emerge in the first instance. It is manifested as launching; or it is manifested as the completed state. Its proximate cause is grown matter. 21. 'Continuity of matter' has the characteristic of occurrence. Its function is to anchor. It is manifested as non-interruption. Its proximate cause is matter that is anchored. Both of these are terms for matter at its birth; but owing to difference of mode, and according to [different persons'] susceptibility to instruction, the teaching in the summary (uddesa) in the Dhammasa.ngani is given as 'growth and continuity' (cf. Dhs. 596); but since there is here no difference in meaning, consequently in the description (niddesa) of these words, 'the setting up of the sense-bases is the growth of matter' and 'the growth of matter is the continuity of matter' is said (Dhs. 642, 732, 865). 31497 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 2 Dear Christine, Thank you very much for your one by one method on this. Nina. op 18-03-2004 09:04 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Here are the final paragraphs of the section in Bhikkhu Bodhi's > intro. on 'Dependent Arising'. 31498 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Nina, Well and beautifully said, I think--most important and well paraphrased, perfectly consistent with the suttas and the abhidhamma. How often does anyone simply state that lobha is the cause of dukkha, as the Buddha did so plainly? And how great the implication of this to all dhammas and to Dhamma? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI > Lobha, the cause of dukkha can only be understood by awareness and > understanding of lobha of this moment. Not lobha of the past or the future. > When there is ignorance we do not know what the right Path is and what the > wrong Path. Then there is no way to develop insight and realize the first > and the second noble Truth. And no way to reach the goal, nibbana, the end > of dukkha. 31499 From: Eznir Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:44pm Subject: Vacisankhara Dear Friends, Read what NASA has to say on what determines speech. NASA Develops System To Computerize Silent, 'Subvocal Speech' http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040318072412.htm eznir 31500 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:14am Subject: Questions on Santirana-citta Dear Group, I received the following email from a Dhamma friend, and have her permission to ask these questions on dsg. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ==================================== Hi Christine, I have posted to this group before and I think Nina knows of our study. I lost contact for a while due to a move to the country. I would be pleased if you could post these questions for the dsg to answer and Nina , if she would like to. Some questions have been asked from our group about the santirana -citta. These questions which come out of our study of Abhidhamma in Daily life, chapter 17, Doors and Physical dases of Citta. On page 111 of Ninas text, in the last sentence of paragraph 3, Nina states; Santirana - Citta has different functions when performed through different doorways.... We are still confused as to how investigating consciousness can perform functions other than investigating! From the next two paragraphs on the same page. According to the text, if Santirana-citta is accompanied by somanassa, it can perform the function of santirana through 5 doors and tadarammana through 6 doors. However, if Santirana is accompanied by upekkha, it can perform santirana, tadarammana, patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti!THis is three more functions with no explanation of why. Could it be that if Sanirana is accompanied by somanassa you have already reached enlightenment where cuti, bhavanga and patisandhi no longer apply? We would be interested to recieve some comments on this. Metta, Lynn 31501 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] What do you do with gratitude? Hello all, Browsing around back near the msg that Christine linked to the past study groups, came across this exchange and thought it lovely, and interesting. In my case, I would have never thought of gratitude. I would have immediately begun spinning concepts to exploit the beauty of the evning and make it mine. I remember about a month ago I was cycling under a full moon, down by the sea, and noticed how the moonlight was glimmering off the crest of each wave for a moment before it broke, and then again in the remnant of the wave lapping up on shore. It was very beautiful, but instead of enjoying it or feeling grateful, my mind rushed off on a conceptual journey, thinking of the implications of the sunlight bouncing off the moon to the wave to my eye to my brain, and wondering what I could tell people at the discussion groups to sound clever. The next time I come across something beautiful in nature, a cue for silent gratitude might arise because of this exchange. Thank you to you both. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 7/3/03 4:06:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > Dear group, > > > > When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and chilly, > > still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The > > trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the > > rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once > > displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of > > clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing tide > > on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink on > > the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming gratitude > > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > =============================== > I know the feeling. Perhaps the gratitude should go to the past > actions of yourself and others that led to these circumstances (or, as Judaism says, > that "brought you to this day"), and to the Buddha and other great (but > lesser) teachers whose teachings you have come across in this and previous > lifetimes and which helped in making you open to such appreciation. > > With metta, > Howard 31502 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack and Sarah, I wanted to address this point, but being in a hurry to get to the end of the post, I forgot about it. Jack asked: There is one point I still don't understand about your position. In your system, how do you convert conceptual knowledge to experiential knowledge? Am I incorrect in saying that you would answer that repeatedly studying the teachings (conceptual knowledge) results eventually in experiential knowledge? And, trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing it involves trying and shouldn't be attempted? Sukin: We as worldlings are never precise. In worldly matters, we get by because everyone is satisfied with close estimations, or are happily deluded. In general, agreed upon convention and the terms used to express day to day activities allows us to get along socially, and there is never any concern about precise mental states. Of course there is no need to be too critical about this; here language generally serves its purpose. Worldlings and enlightened folks both use it. However when it comes to dhamma, we have to try to be as precise as possible. It is impossible to be perfectly so, because dhammas are "realities", and we worldlings don't really know these dhammas. But at least we can know that we don't know, and can consult the texts! ;-) From a particular perspective the terms, `theory' and `practice' are both aspects of panna cetasika. The latter however, is just precisely those moments when the former is experienced directly, i.e. moments of satipatthana or any of the higher knowledge. But the way most of us generally view these two concepts is vague, and always in relation to a "self". But dhammas arise and perform their functions by conditions regardless of whether we know or are aware of them. To decide to `apply' or `practice' may not in fact involve any real application at all! But we would like to think that it does, because we have followed those certain steps which we believe "application and practice" involves. But practice (patipatti) has its own conditions all of which is not-self. And the `self' can't decide to apply! So there is no one who "converts conceptual knowledge to experiential knowledge". And the decision to "study" is also not like a ritualistic activity. When there is any understanding that indeed the panna is very weak, that the real characteristic of reality so illusive, that understanding does not come about simply by "trying", then one realizes that what needs is a firm foundation in the basics, namely pariyatti. Chanda can then be conditioned to arise to read or listen more. And when indeed conditions are right, for example, knowing about the difference between `visible object' and `thinking', at any moment sati can arise to see for an instance, this fact. This will be followed immediately by, greed and the usual deluded way of experience. And there may never be another experience of this sort again in a long, long time. However, the understanding remains, (with the help of wise friends to maintain and boost such an understanding), and one concludes that this is how it is supposed to be. And that it matches with understanding other aspects of the teachings, particularly about anatta and conditionality. So Jack it is all about conditions, if one understands this firmly, faith can be aroused knowing that dhammas arise and fall in accordance with its own laws. This realization itself may be an instance of `practice' more potent than any `trying', and it may also be an example of the difference between right and wrong effort. And we need patience and courage here as much as we need them anywhere else. Sorry for another long post. I am trying to do my best. ;-) I hope Sarah would also comment on this. Metta, Sukin. 31503 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:57am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, Jack and Howard, Swee Boon, I don't think your paraphrase fits with my thoughts. I would put them another way. Swee Boon wrote: There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. You can't try. Is there anything more defeating than this sort of view? And what is the result when such a sort of view becomes entrenched? Non-action. Instead of pursuing the goal, they thought the goal would pursue them. Sukin: All dhammas arise and fall by conditions, including volition. Being able to control these conditions is an illusion. There are only dhammas arising and falling, no `self' anywhere. `You can't select', not only because there is no self, but because citta taking on any object is conditioned and not up to any non-existent `chooser'. The problem in `attempting' is not just `self-view', but that *this* is self-defeating. Ignorance associated with `aiming for results' mistakes akusala for kusala, wrong view for right view and so instead of developing more panna, one is going the wrong path. I agree with the `entrenchment' ;-), it can happen at anytime. One lesson I learnt from my recent discussion with Ken O, is that even though both of us may be right on a certain level, even a slight clinging to either of our positions, could make the `truth' that we hold, momentarily sterile. As to your last remark, there is no idea that `the goal would pursue' me, because there is no `me', waiting to receive anything. Whether one is moving toward the goal or not, whether the practice is right or not, it is all contained in this one moment of arising and falling. If there is panna, then the movement is toward the goal, if not, then it is not. And from what you see here, even viewing it as a `story' a `whole', do you not see that the activities of some of us here is quite the opposite of what you say? ;-) Howard, there *is* volition; however it simply performs its function of coordinating and directing the associated cetasikas. But it is as conditioned by the other cetasikas as they are by it. It is chief when it comes to kusala and akusala actions, but this does not mean that it is not conditioned by the other factors. The problem is that we don't realize that cetana is *already* conditioned by the time we have any idea about it. And any attempt to change or direct the course of our actions is also *already* determined by so many factors. And lobha and ignorance is waiting to distort our perception, giving the illusion of `knowing' and `doing the right thing', when in fact it is not! So there is *no* control! Hope I have not misunderstood you. Metta, Sukin. 31504 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, You said: There is no self but there is right intention and right effort. The suttas are full of instructions that, as I understand it, we should try to follow. Take the 8-Fold Path for instance. I would think we are supposed to try not to kill, lie, misuse intoxicants, etc. Sukin: This is from the Nyanatiloka dictionary, magga: 'path'. 1. For the 4 supermundane paths (lokuttara-magga), s. ariya-puggala - 2. The Eightfold Path (atthangika-magga) is the path leading to the extinction of suffering, i.e. the last of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), namely: Wisdom (paññá) III. 1. Right view (sammá-ditthi) 2. Right thought (sammá-sankappa) Morality (síla) I. 3. Right speech (sammá-vácá) 4. Right bodily action (sammá-kammanta) 5. Right livelihood (sammá-ájíva) Concentration (samádhi) II. 6. Right effort (sammá-váyáma) 7. Right mindfulness (sammá-sati) 8. Right concentration (sammá-samádhi) I have seen the second factor Right Thought, translated as Right Intention, so maybe you too have come across the same translation, hence the misunderstanding? As I said in my last post to you, I believe that our understanding is quite vague, hence the need to be as precise as possible when trying to understand dhamma. Six persons, A, B, C, X, Y, and Z, all understand the dhamma at their own level. Would each one having the sincere intention to realize the goal all reach there, eventually? Dhammas go by their own law, can akusala lead to kusala result, and can ignorance lead to panna? What if one of these completely misunderstand the dhamma (a Mahayanist for example), what would it mean for him to *develop* panna? Nothing!! Would the effort he put into say, meditating ten hours a day, bear any positive fruit, i.e. with respect to following the Buddha's path? Would you consider that `Right effort'? Right effort must arise with at least four other rights, Right View, Right thought, Right Mindfulness and Right concentration. And all of these are anatta. It is not so difficult to see that Right View is the leader. Whatever choice we make in outlook and practice, it all is influenced by an underlying view. If panna arose right now, it is just that, it *underrstands*. There is no resultant idea of `controlling conditions'. It may see the danger of akusala and correspondingly the benefit of kusala, but this will condition what it will, effort through mind, speech or body, at *that* very moment when the situation commands. There is no idea about the future, because this will be in relation to an `illusory self' existing now and will continue to be in the future. Intention as we know it creates in our minds such an illusion. It seeks something for a self which is not there, even if that be in the name of kusala. Jack: Yes, at a point in our development, we are to leave all striving behind. Sukin: You mean `willful' striving and not `effort'? There is right and wrong effort, don't you think it is important to determine if the effort is right or not. And if you know that right effort is conditioned by other rights, don't you think it dangerous not to question an `intended activity' such as meditation? Are we not risking going the wrong path? Jack: But, I think the Buddha gave instructions that also apply to earlier stages in our mental development. And, I think we, unless we are pretty far advanced, go back and forth daily in stages of our development. That is, there are times when we just have to try to follow the precepts and times we can just do something without striving. Sukin: As far as the development of panna is concerned, the difference in "stages" is just that in the beginning it is `theoretical knowledge', and gradually with a degree of practice, the understanding of theory also deepens and this increases the chance of sati and panna arising more in experience. However, all the way, from the very beginning it must involve detachment. At first it would be prompted by much rationalizing etc, but later as understanding grows, it would be as you say, "without striving". We are not advanced and don't need to be so in order to have some detachment from any idea of a `self having to do something'. Same applies to `keeping the precepts'. Jack: Another way to say it is that striving is like using a thorn to remove a thorn in our skin. Once we have removed the thorn in our skin, we throw both thorns away. Sukin: Everyone wants to be free of suffering. But a deluded worldling will only understand *his* suffering, and so all attempts at removing the suffering will cause him to fall into the trap of yet other forms of suffering. Those of us who have heard the teachings and yearn to be free, because we don't still know the real nature of dhamma, we too will fall into the lap of perhaps the lesser evil, some form of lobha or the other. Only the ariyans knows and is not deceived. But more dangerous than all other akusala is Wrong view. If we don't know that any idea of "using a thorn to remove a thorn in our skin" is influenced by wrong view, then the result can be really bad. I am not saying, that you have wrong view, but just want to caution you about it since you seem more interested in other things. As to your other post, it will have to wait, no time. Only one thing, I don't consider the DO at all. The very mention of it makes me very nervous. Whenever I come across DO, there are more questions than answers. So I am hoping this new discussion thread on DO will help me. But I will need to go really, slow. Metta, Sukin. 31505 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, I have some time now. You said: I think you are misreading the Cycle of Dependent Origination (DO). DO doesn't begin with ignorance and end with decay and death. It is a cycle. Each element influences the next with decay and death influencing ignorance as the wheel turns. Mental formations that occur influence the next cycle ignorance element. Thoughts, intentions and the decisions we make are very important and can be a problem. Sukin: I think in the quote you posted, the author was talking about thought per se, but here in dependent origination, you are talking about intention. Jack: I think we can know our perversions without the use of symbols. If we are mindful, we see how X causes Y, a perversion causes suffering. We don't have to use a symbol for either X or Y. It is like riding a bike. We learn by seeing how a given action causes certain results. We don't use symbols in learning how to ride a bike. Symbols make it easier, in my opinion, but aren't necessary to understand how a perversion causes suffering. Sukin: I was saying that we can't know "about" our perversions. By this I meant that without the use of words, what the Buddha discovered wouldn't reach our ears. And once reached, without being reminded about it again and again, our attention and interest will move on to other things. Sure, knowing anything does not involve any superimposition of words. But I was talking about the knowledge of such things, without this, we would have no hint at all. Jack: Intention does play a part in the development of understanding. Intention drives kamma. Past kamma causes the first elements of a Cycle of DO up to vedana. Past kamma can influence the mental formations that occur after vedana in a cycle of DO. So, intention does influence understanding. In this case, I am defining understanding as insight into the causation of suffering. Sukin: Past kamma, gives rise to vipaka. Accumulations and tendencies influence the mental formations now. Insight will occur only because panna has been accumulated enough and other conditions are in place. Intention has no influence in this process. Jack: I am reading your post to say that experiencing an ultimate has to involve a concept. I don't think that is what the Buddha had in mind. Sukin: You are misunderstanding what I said, sorry for not having been clearer. Experiencing an ultimate reality is without words. But without knowledge of these, one's attention will dart among unrealities, thinking them to be real. So we need to hear about "realities" in order to know what it is that is actually going on in our lives. Jack: I think it is very difficult to develop understanding if we only scratch the shoe, i.e., don't go right to reality and compare it with our concepts. Sukin: Yes, but not a "self" who can do this. There is no need to compare even; panna will take care of everything. Jack, I think you are still holding to an idea of "application" which may be wrong…..?! Jack: Even if it is possible, it is not the method suggested by the Buddha who continually suggested that his teachings were to be tested by our own actual experience. Sukin: Again, no self to test or apply, but like I said in another post, when the conditions arise, the practice will take place and this would be verification of what one has heard. Jack: You seem to be implying the opposite, i.e., actual experience isn't required. Sukin: I hope you now see that this is not what I am suggesting. Metta, Sukin. ps: Sorry to fill up your time with so much of my own thoughts. 31506 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack Just like to add on this part that the experiental part that we are living is conceptual in paramattha dhamma standard. By the time we experience in conventional way, there are already millions of cittas arise and cease. Regard to DO, IMHO feelings are past kamma if and only if you are talking about vipakas cittas. For javana process cittas, the can be wholesome or unwholesome, so it can be pleasant, unpleasant or indifference. Ken O 31507 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hi Victor Welcome back Regarding to your three questions, for the pali word, that is beyond me. What does it mean by 'shedding' and What is it that was being shed? Lets look at the three sutta quote You wrote: I would say that haugtiness, contempt, and pride all should lump into one conceit for easy grasping of the Teacher Instructions. extracting both 3.1 and 3.3 sutta quotes. are presentative of material aggregates and one thought one own these aggregates, one become very conceited with one have. immaterial aggregates where one can see this person has lots of conceit. conceit is extracted and the word ubound - are representative of Arahatship. The last story about the not resort to violence. I remember there is a very beautiful four stanza on this, maybe Christine could help ;-). This story is consistent with the above two, with the shedding of I am (conceit), where is anger to be found. So my conclusion is same as yours, the shedding of conceit as the Teacher Instruction. As only when one is an Arahant, conceit is being totally shed ;-). Ken O 31508 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi Christine, I know you understand paramattha dhamams, just happen to read this and I like to share it with you, using your 'One by One as they Arise' method. Visud XVII, 28 < Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Swee Boon I have an interesting detail for you from Visud - a short one. And it shows the importance on the mindfullnss of the body (understanding materiality) Visud XVIII, 23 <> Beforehand, there is description on how to start to discern the materiality. This is like an extension of the meditation of elements, it started with the elements, this time in paramattha level (no longer in concept as describe in the suttas), then defining materiality based on 18 elements, based on twelve bases and based on five aggregates. Ken O 31510 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hello Ken O, I was really enjoying your research until you came to your conclusion about insight (vipassana). I am sorry to say this, because I respect you a great deal, and I do not mean any offense by this at all, but it seems your conclusion is born of fixed views. It seemed like you were really onto something that would challenge us all here, like, why does the Buddha reject Alara Kalama and Ramaputta and the 7th and 8th jhanas, go off get enlightened (nibbana), then conclude the sutta with extolling the 8 jhanas? He, by the way, does not mention insight (vipassana) at all in that sutta. So, why did you come to the conclusion that insight was the answer, except that you are still clinging to the belief and fixed view that the 'dry' insight (vipassana) sangha have been selling in the name of the Buddha, dhamma and sangha? On another list someone responded to my discourse "Lack of evidence in support of a 'Dry' Insight" by asking "just what did the Buddha say about insight (vipassana)?" Not having a whole lot to say on the subject of canonical references to insight, I turned to the index for the Digha Nikaya, and found there is only one suttic reference in that entire Nikaya for insight. Mahapadana Sutta, DN 14, and the sutta is an allegory about a boy whose name is Vipassi, an obvious metaphor for vipassana. I am all for mindfulness of the four Corner Stones of Awareness including "mindfulness of the five aggregates." This is an excellent practice regimen that is described in the Sati Suttas, however they are not the definition of insight (vipassana). They are the definition of Satipatthana. It seems one of the errors that the 'dry' Insight people have been making is subverting the Satipatthana Sutta by appropriating everything in the three sati suttas, with the exception of jhana, then renaming it as vipassana, and claiming the Buddha taught it. Well, yes the Buddha did teach it, however he called the practice of mindfulness (sati), Satipatthana not vipassana, and he did not reject jhana. What I have been saying all along is "there is no insight without jhana. There is no jhana without insight. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption" Dhammapada Verse 372. They are simply two of the properties of right meditation or absorption (samma-samadhi). Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/18/04 11:17:35 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:12:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Ken O Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard and (Jeff Brooks) You have to be patient with me, because I am a very long winded person like Sukin :-). I am not here to say I am right or you are wrong. I just like to share with you what I have gather on the little details about jhanas. MN 26, The Noble Search. "Thus Alara Kalama, my teacher placed me his pupil on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occured to me: 'This dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reapperance in the base of nothingness" [Base of nothingness is an immaterial state and only can be access through arupa jhanas] Then again Buddha go to Rama and learn neither-preception-nor-non-preception [also another immaterial state and can only be access through arupa jhanas]. Sutta MN 8 Effacement. 4. "It is possible here, Cunda that quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He might think thus: "I am abidhing in effacement." But it is not these attainments that are called "effacement" in the Noble One Disciple: These are called pleasant abidings here and not' in the Noble One's Discipline." Then later in the sutta Buddha described the effacement like not to be cruel, no killing etc... (44 in all) Then again in The Noble Search MN 26 at para 33, As to those recluses and brahims who are not tie to the five cords of sensual pleasure, who are not infatuated with them or utterly commited to them, who use them seeing the danger in them and understanding the escape from them, it may undersand of them.......... then to para 35, Again with the stilling of applied thought etc... is all about jhanas. By the above quotes, I established that without insight, jhana is basically useless. It is only together with insight with jhanas that our mind become invisible to Maras. Then again it is not about development of jhanas first, it is always point to development of sila, restraining of the six senses that comes first, before jhanas. So mindfulness and insight are vehicles before we talk about jhanas. Even if one look at Mindfullness suttas, there are always after mental objects or consciousness, it is the establishment of mindfullness of the five aggregates before one enter jhanas. We can also conclude, without insight there will no understanding of dhamma, so attaining 4th jhanas will not make one more insightful or clearer or sharper or more comprehenable. Ken O >> 31511 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hello Swee Boon, just out of curiosity, if they are considered "higher knowledges" then why do you have them labeled as "mundane?" And, do you have a canonical reference for their designation as "mundane?" Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/18/04 11:17:35 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:47:43 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Htoo, > This is not a comment. But a question. What are the 6 higher > knowledges? They are: (1) wields manifold supranormal powers (mundane), (2) divine ear-element (mundane), (3) knows the awareness of other beings (mundane), (4) recollects his manifold past lives (mundane), (5) sees beings passing away & re-appearing (mundane), and (6) ending of the mental effluents (supramundane), as listed at the end of that very sutta. Regards, Swee Boon >> 31512 From: Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi, Sukin (and Swee Boon and Jack) - In a message dated 3/19/04 3:59:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Swee Boon, Jack and Howard, > > > Swee Boon, I don't think your paraphrase fits with my thoughts. I > would put them another way. > > Swee Boon wrote: > > There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. > There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to > control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there > isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. > You can't try. > > Is there anything more defeating than this sort of view? > > And what is the result when such a sort of view becomes entrenched? > > Non-action. > > Instead of pursuing the goal, they thought the goal would pursue > them. > > Sukin: > All dhammas arise and fall by conditions, including volition. Being > able to control these conditions is an illusion. There are only > dhammas arising and falling, no `self' anywhere. `You can't select', > not only because there is no self, but because citta taking on any > object is conditioned and not up to any non-existent `chooser'. The > problem in `attempting' is not just `self-view', but that *this* is > self-defeating. Ignorance associated with `aiming for results' > mistakes akusala for kusala, wrong view for right view and so > instead of developing more panna, one is going the wrong path. > ============================ "It seems I've heard this song before ... " Anybody recall that old tune? ;-)) And here comes the same old, familiar refrain: Sukin, forgoing techno-speak for the moment, let me ask you whether you can hold your breath for a few seconds (I *know* that you can! ;-) Now, that is exercising control. You will, of course reply that there is no self who exercised anything. And I will agree, and reply "So what?"! This is still an instance of what people normally and conventionally mean by exercising control. Now, you will likely follow up by saying that the volition that leads to the breath-holding is not uncaused, but arises automatically from conditions. And I will reply "Of course that is so! What sort of volition would baseless volition be? I would be pure randomness! What sort of appeal would anyone find in a willing that is willing for no reason whatsoever? Why, no appeal! Of *course* volition, like all conditioned phenomena, arises due to causes and conditions.So what?" With metta, Howard P.S. Maybe we should just record this conversation, so that we can play it back in the future, saving unnecessary finger exercise on the keyboard! What do you think? ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31513 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:20am Subject: Kusala and Akusala patterns in daily Life. O Dhamma Fellows!!! Nobody can estimate the value of Right Understanding till concrete chance appears! I was assigned to check out the service uplifters of one FAB's Military Unity (a gerontological clinic): they were a bit old and obsolete and all personnel over there stood looking at me, waiting for a miraculous declaration of all that problem and its brillant solution... the room gear was dirty, messed up with obsolete and rusty equipment and, adding up with my unexpertise of uplifters projects, this raised up in my citta a deep Akusala feeling: not about "no-morality", or wrong deeds, but a direct LACK OF EXPERTISE as the true meaning of "Akusala". Terrible! I said some loose, cold sweating words when my sub-officer, that is very expert on this class of projects, came to my aid: with a quick look at all situation he stated to all presents a real picture of all that problems and their possible solutions. I nooded honourably, with a deep KUSALA feeling! Moral: Kusala and Akusala Dhammas, rather than speaking out about morality, wrong deeds and doers, etc, is a declaration of EXPERTISE or No-EXPERTISE of all Citta and Cetasika affairs!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31514 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, If striving to attain the goal is akusala, there would be no Buddhas. Regards, Swee Boon 31515 From: hasituppada Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Friends, I do not personally believe in a "dry" or a "wet" insight. Lord Buddha made his discourse to make his disciples understand the importance of "meditation" the only way out of cycle of death and birth. He learnt the concentration of mind through samadhi and jhana absorptions, from the teachers like Alara Kaalama. He found there was some thing incomplete in deeper concentration and jhana absorptions to understand the reality of dukkha the search into which was his primary interest in taking to the life of an ascetic. He therefore, realising that none of the sages of the day had found the key to discover reality of suffering, went on his own to determined to find the truth of Dukkha. He sat by the Bodhi tree and went throught the preliminary stages of meditation by absorption of rupa dna arupa jhana, then he came out of it and with that mind cleared through concentration tried to understand the reality of Dukkha and the suffering in samsara. That resulted in his enlightenment. He found that "meditation" was the only way to develop panna and understand the impermanance, unsatisfactoryness and no self. Therefore, he set the wheel of dhamma turning and taught his followers to find freedom from samasara through "meditation". Samatha and vipassana are two integral parts of "Bhavana". There is no "one" without "the other". Both together composed meditation. Therefore as samatha and vipassana being the "bhavana" that Buddha prescribed, it was not necessary for him to repeat in every discourse that a meditator should begin by jhana absorptions and then go on to vipassana. When he said sit at the foot of a tree or an empty house etc.meditate on the in out breath he very well expected the meditator to commence by Samatha and go on to Vipassana. To do Vipassana without Jhana absorption is therefore a "mutilation" of the meditation taught by the Buddha. with metta, Hasituppada. ______________________________________________________________ So, why did you come to the conclusion that insight was the answer, except that you are still clinging to the belief and fixed view that the 'dry' insight (vipassana) sangha have been selling in the name of the Buddha, dhamma and sangha? On another list someone responded to my discourse "Lack of evidence in support of a 'Dry' Insight" by asking "just what did the Buddha say about insight (vipassana)?" Not having a whole lot to say on the subject of canonical references to insight, I turned to the index for the Digha Nikaya, and found there is only one suttic reference in that entire Nikaya for insight. Mahapadana Sutta, DN 14, and the sutta is an allegory about a boy whose name is Vipassi, an obvious metaphor for vipassana. Jeff Brooks 31516 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Jeff, It's because the 5 mundane higher knowledges do not lead to the ending of stress. Only with the attainment of the only supramundane higher knowledge can a person discern thus: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' Regards, Swee Boon 31517 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:17am Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hi Ken O, Thank you. I've read through the passage § 3.3 and enjoyed the the shedding > of > haughtiness & contempt, the conceit "I am", and all forms of pride story. It seems to me the last paragraph Such, monks, is the forbearance & gentleness of kings who wield the scepter, who wield the sword. So now let your light shine forth, so that you -- who have gone forth in such a well-taught Dhamma & Discipline -- will be their equal in forbearance & gentleness. points out the lesson of the story. To me, forbearance & gentleness is the shedding of haughtiness & contempt, the conceit "I am", and all forms of pride. It seems to me that out of haughtiness & contempt, conceit, pride, King Brahmadatta invaded Kosala and eventually killed King Dighiti and his chief consort. I think it is a story rich of meaning, and it has a deep human dimension. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Victor > > Welcome back > > Regarding to your three questions, for the pali word, that is beyond > me. What does it mean by 'shedding' and What is it that was being > shed? Lets look at the three sutta quote > > You wrote: off something. In passage § 3.1., it seems to me that > is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. And that kind > of shedding is again reflected in passage § 3.2.> I would say that > haugtiness, contempt, and pride all should lump into one conceit for > easy grasping of the Teacher Instructions. > > > extracting both 3.1 and 3.3 sutta quotes. > Intoxicated with my complexion figure, beauty, & fame; haughty with > youth> are presentative of material aggregates and one thought one > own these aggregates, one become very conceited with one have. > > arrogant, haughty, my banner held high. disrespectful, arrogant, > proud -- bowed down to no one, not even mother, father, or those > > immaterial aggregates where one can see this person has lots of > conceit. > > > effluents, cooled am I, unbound> conceit is extracted and the word > ubound - are representative of Arahatship. > > The last story about the not resort to violence. I remember there is > a very beautiful four stanza on this, maybe Christine could help ;- ). > This story is consistent with the above two, with the shedding of I > am (conceit), where is anger to be found. So my conclusion is same > as yours, the shedding of conceit as the Teacher Instruction. As > only when one is an Arahant, conceit is being totally shed ;-). > > > Ken O 31518 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:36am Subject: char. of rupas, 2 char. of rupas, 2. The text (of the Atth) states: ³... integration of matter has the characteristic of accumulation, the function of making material things arise at the beginning, leading them, or the fullness of matter as manifestation, integrated matter as proximate cause. Continuity has the characteristic of continuous occurrence, the function of linking or binding without a break, unbroken series as manifestation, matter bound up without a break as proximate cause.² The words ³linking without a break² remind us that the seemingly permanence of the body is merely due to the continuous production of new rúpas replacing the ones that have fallen away. Thus, the explanation by the ³Atthasåliní² of these four characteristics in a general way or in conventional sense is different from the explanation of the four characteristics of each group of rúpas which arise and fall away. The sabhåva rúpas (rúpas with their own distinct nature) of each group must have all four characteristics of the origination of rúpa, upacaya rúpa, the continuity of rúpa, santati rúpa, the decay of rúpa, jårata rúpa, and the impermanence of rúpa, aniccatå rúpa. The ³Atthasåliní² also deals with decay (jaratå) in a general, conventional sense (same section, 328) : ... the decay of matter has the characteristic of maturity of matter; leading (to disruption) as function; the lacking of a fresh state (newness), though not devoid of its intrinsic nature (individual essence), as manifestation, like rotten paddy; the maturing matter as proximate cause. The ³Atthasåliní² explains terms used by the ³Dhammasangaùi² in reference to decay, such as decrepitude, hoariness, wrinkles, the shrinkage in length of days, the overripeness of the faculties: ... By the word ³decrepitude² is shown the function which is the reason for the broken state of teeth, nails, etc., in process of time. By hoariness is shown the function which is the reason for the greyness of hair on the head and body. By ³wrinkles² is shown the function which is the reason for the wrinkled state in the skin making the flesh fade. Hence these three terms show the function of decay in process of time.... As to the terms ³shrinkage in life and maturity of faculties², these show the resultant nature of this decay. We read: ... Because the life of a being who has reached decay shortens, therefore decay is said to be the shrinkage in life by a figure of speech. Moreover, the faculties, such as sight, etc., capable of easily seizing their own object, however subtle, and which are clear in youth, are mature in one who has attained to decay; they are disturbed, not distinct, and not capable of seizing their own object however gross.... When we notice decay of our teeth, wrinkles of the skin and greying of our hairs, decay is obvious. However, we should remember that each rúpa that arises is susceptible to decay, that it will fall away completely. Nina. 31519 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 19-03-2004 00:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > If I don't see an image, what do I see? I certainly don't see only red > then only blue. N: No, defining different colours such as red or blue is also thinking, not seeing. Seeing experiences all that is visible through eyesense, without thinking. It took me many years of discussion before I began to understand. Seeing is not focussing on something. The Abhidhamma can help us, but it has to be applied, and at this very moment. We learn that seeing is vipaakacitta, it just sees, it does not like or dislike. Seeing is accompanied by the minimum amount of cetasikas: seven only. It does not know yet whether the object is desirable or undesirable, it just sees without thinking. It is not accompanied by vitakka (translated as thinking), the cetasika that "hits" the object. Seeing is an experience, it is not dead matter. If there were no seeing the world of sight would not appear, nothing would appear through eyesense and the world would be pitch dark. Seeing experiences an object, but you do not have to call it object. So, we have to find out for ourselves whether there can be moments of seeing, moments that we do not think of anything, moments without terms or words. L: Furthermore, I think it is not useful to isolate > experience, focusing only on one little touch separate from all else. If > we don't see relationships we won't be aware of conditional relations. > Without an awareness of conditional relations there is no cessation. > Conditional relations is a supramundane mind-door object but they could > also be a mundane mind-door object. N: The object of lokuttara cittas, supramundane cittas, is only nibbana. Cessation is the term used for the realization of nibbana. Understanding conditional relations: which ones at which moment? There are twentyfour classes. L: As far as I know concept is not an > object of mundane insight; N: Right, nibbana is not a concept. L:so conditional relations (and other relations such as complex external objects) are not concepts when they are objects > of mundane insight. N: It is better, I think, if we go into concrete examples here. Nina. 31520 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:34am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 4. Modesty (§ 4.1.) § 4.1. "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said." [AN VIII.30] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty 31521 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 4. Modesty (§ 4.1.) Hi all, I find that passage § 4.1 explains what it means by being modest. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 4.1. > "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? > There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be > known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be > known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to > be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he > does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His > mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known > that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he > does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being > endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He > is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not > want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This > Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it > said." > > [AN VIII.30] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty 31522 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:28pm Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hello Victor, KenO and all, Still on conceit ... Most people think of conceit as pride and vanity whether allegedly justified or not. But I can remember being told the first time I was in Bangkok in a discussion that stating "modestly" that others had greater knowledge of the Dhamma than I was a form of conceit And I think on another trip, I was told that having 'hurt feelings' because of someone else's rudeness was also a form of conceit, because it could only happen if there was the idea of a 'self' who hadn't been given due respect etc. KenO says: "The last story about the not resort to violence. I remember there is a very beautiful four stanza on this, maybe Christine could help ;-)." CF: I'll try, but can you give me a few more details Ken? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 31523 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:56pm Subject: Azita Dear Azita-still-treading-water-I-hope, Have you lot in Cairns really had 1000 millimetres - 250 inches (using the old standard :-)) in the last week? Must be true - the ABC News told me so. :-) Great to have full water tanks, hey! Hope the Barron River is still within its banks near you. Hope you have an aqualung within reach. Hope the road south opens to trucks soon, and the power is restored. Hope, at least, that the Big Wet has washed the crocs and cane toads out to sea. See you at Brissie airport when you stopover on the way to U-A-R next Friday. Cairns airport is still operational, I hope. :-) We'll have to have a talking schedule - you first, then me or vice versa, to get it all said in only a few of hours ... or six cups of coffee (using the old standard. :-)) cheers, Chris 31524 From: Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Nina, I can't make out what you are saying. I am trying to make the case that relationships are ultimately real. Do you reject that or not? "Dependent arising" is about relationships is it not? The "cause" of suffering and the "way" to the end of suffering are both relationships. First you reject "image" and now you reject "color". I cannot write without words. How can we communicate? Apparently for you visible data "without conceptual interpretation" (sanna?) is neither image nor color. I really can't believe this, but the point of my argument is that there is more than one "whatever it is that you see" in this visible data. There is natural relationship there already, a group. Larry 31525 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Dear Abbydhamma, I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this subject, so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque posts here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion of dhammas. It's suitable that I post here, actually, because the fear has arisen since I encountered this group, and more especually the abhidhamma. It makes sense - I've seen my wrong way of understanding reality stripped down and am standing naked on a very cold day. A friend here referred to having one's wrong understanding exposed as "refreshing" and I can see that, in a sense, because there is knowledge that with the passing of wrong understanding right understanding can arise. My problem is that - as I posted before- the circumstances of my life demand that I try to make money, and my new small degree of right understanding shows me that intending to make money through concepts/writing is a recipe for great deepening of defilements rather than progress on uprooting them. I think the problem comes down to the fact that my best friend/life partner/wife Naomi has no interest in Buddhism and considers my interest a form of dilly-dallying and avoiding the hard work that needs to be done. I want to get deeper and deeper into understanding dhammas. She wants me to get deeper and deeper into the market place. And I know she's right that if I don't, we will be penniless in our old age. We joke about surving on a can of tuna a day. If I were by myself, that would be all right. I would have a greater wealth in dhmma than a comfortable retirement fund. But she will be by my side when we are old, and if she hasn't found the Buddha's teaching by then, there will be hell to pay. So one thing to do is to help her understand the Buddha's teaching. I wrote before that she said she was not surprised by the notion of rupa and nama, but it is far from true that she has been liberated from material concerns to even a small degree. All she thinks about these days are pensions (which we don't have- living abroad, I don't even know if I can get a pension from Canada, and I can't get one from Japan -I'm in a catch 22 there) and savings funds (which we can't afford to contribute to) Those of you whose life partners (I think of Sarah and Jon and Nina and Ludjewik(sp?) ) share an interest in the Buddha's teaching should not take that for granted. It is probably very rare. I am interested in talking to Rob K someday about how he manages to get Japanese friends and students interested in dhamma, because in my experience there is aversion to Buddhism on the part of many Japanese because Buddhism has come to be associated strictly with funerals and payment priests in exchange for chanting. So sharing the Buddha's teaching with her is not easy. Sharing from the heart is best of course, telling her what I've learned, how important it is, but you see that is another catch 22 because since she thinks my interest in Buddhism is dilly-dallying, talking about it is also dilly-dallying. We don't have kids, BTW. That may make us very close and dependent on each other, to a degree that many couples with kids don't have because of orientating more towards the kids' well being. But that's a different topic. Anyways, I needed to post this. If I am less involved here in the months to come, it will not be because of a typical fickleness of passing interest, but because I somehow have to get my nose down to the grindstone. (If any of you are fithy rich and would like to adopt a youngish, middle-aged couple, we are available. Fairly house trained, and we can both cook quite well.) I am feeling confused and fearful about how to balance a sincere interest in the Buddha's teaching with a need to think about the market place. Signed, Penniless in Samsara 31526 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:37pm Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hi Christine and all, Reading what you wrote, I did a search on the words 'superior', 'equal', and 'inferior', and find the following relevant: Sutta Nipata IV.9 Magandiya Sutta To Magandiya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- 09.html Samyutta Nikaya I.20 Samiddhi Sutta About Samiddhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-020.html Stating, however "modestly", that others had greater knowledge of the Dhamma than oneself would still be an instance of construing 'equal,' 'superior,' or 'inferior.' I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said Having shed classifications, gone beyond conceit, he has here cut through craving for name & form: I wonder if shedding of classification is also meant by the principle/criteria of shedding. Perhaps it can be further examined textually by looking into the Pali original for the word 'shedding.' Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, KenO and all, > > Still on conceit ... > Most people think of conceit as pride and vanity whether allegedly > justified or not. But I can remember being told the first time I > was in Bangkok in a discussion that stating "modestly" that others > had greater knowledge of the Dhamma than I was a form of conceit And > I think on another trip, I was told that having 'hurt feelings' > because of someone else's rudeness was also a form of conceit, > because it could only happen if there was the idea of a 'self' who > hadn't been given due respect etc. > > KenO says: "The last story about the not resort to violence. I > remember there is a very beautiful four stanza on this, maybe > Christine could help ;-)." > CF: I'll try, but can you give me a few more details Ken? > > > metta and peace, > Christine 31527 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hi Victor More on conceit In The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) 845. Therein what is pride? That which is pride, being proud, state of being proud, conceit, being conceited, state of being conceited, loftiness, haughtiness (flaunting a) flag, assumption, desire of conscioness for a banner. This is called pride 962. There is what is ninefold conceit? In one who is better the conceit thus, "I am better"; in one who is better the conceit thus, "I am equal"; in one who is better thus, "I am inferior"; in one who is equal the conceit thus "I am better"; in one who is equal the conceit thus "I am equal"; in one who is equal the conceit thus "I am inferior"; in one who is inferior the conceit thus "I am better"; in one who is inferior the conceit thus "I am equal"; in one who is inferior the conceit thus "I am inferior"; 869. Therein of one who is better what is conceit thus, "I am better" Herein a certain one who is better by birth or by clan or by good family or by beautiful body or by property or by study or by sphere of work or by sphere of craft, or by branch of science or by learning or by intelligence or by one reason or another places himself as better than others; he, depending thereon causes conceit to arise' that which is conceit, being conceited, state of being conceited, loftiness, haughtiness (fluanting) flag, assumption, desire of consciouness for a banner. This is called the conceit thus, "I am better" 870. Therein of one who is better what is the conceit thus, "I am equal"? follow the above paragraph replace word "better" with "equal". 871. Therein of on who is better what is conceit thus, "I am inferior"? Herein a certain who is better by birth or by clan or by good family or by beautiful body or by property or by study or by sphere of work or by sphere of craft, or by branch of science or by learning or by intelligence or by one reason or another places himself as inferior than others; he depending thereon, causes self-disrespect to arise; that which is similar; self-disrespect, being self-disrespectful, state of being disrespectful, scorning (self) being very scornful, state of being very scornful, self-disdain, self-despising, self-contempt. This of one who is better is called the conceit thus, "I am inferior" The text continue with "therein of one who is equal" and "therein of one who is inferior", replacing the words "who is better by birth" with " who is equal by birth...." and "who is inferior by birth", you got the ninefold explanation of conceit How do one get rid of conceit? Visud Chapter III para 122 (extract of the paragraph) "Perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the purpose of eliminating the conceit "I am"' (A.iv.358) How do one study conceit? Dispeller of Delusion <<183. But when a visible datum(rupa) has come into focus in the eye door, a clansman who is established in laying hold thus: 'Lust arises in me regarding an agreeable object and resistance regarding a disagreeable object and delusion regarding an unrecognised obejct; but pride arises in me when bound (vinihandha), [wrong] view when held, agitation (uddhacca) when distracted, uncertainity when not attained to a definite conclusion [asannitthagata], inherent tendecies when habit-ridden, knows the arising of defilements in himself. He thinks: "These defilements by increasing will lead to my harm and undoing. Let me restrain them'....>> Then again in in CMA by B Bodhi chapter I, para 4 conceit arise in 4 types of consciuoness with lobha [conceit is known as dissociation with wrong view] a. One consciouness, accompanied by joy, dissociated with wrong view, unprompted b. One consciouness, accompanied by joy, dissociated with wrong view, prompted c. One consciouness, accompanied by indifference, dissociated with wrong view, unprompted d. One consciouness, accompanied by indifference, dissociated with wrong view, prompted Ken O 31528 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Santirana-citta, Chris fwd. Dear Christine, please frwd to Lynn. Dear Lynn, That is a pleasure to see you again. How is your group doing? Lynn: > Some questions have been asked from our group about > the santirana -citta. These questions which come out of our study > of Abhidhamma in Daily life, chapter 17, Doors and Physical dases of > Citta. > On page 111 of Ninas text, in the last sentence of paragraph 3, Nina > states; Santirana - Citta has different functions when performed > through different doorways.... > We are still confused as to how investigating consciousness can > perform functions other than investigating! N: See Ch 11. One type of citta can perform different functions at different moments. The santiranacitta performs the function of investigating through five doorways, the function of tadarammana through six doorways. Santiranacitta that is akusala vipaka accompanied by indifferent feeling performs the function of rebirth in woeful planes. It is actually the same type as the citta performing the function of santirana, investigating, in the sense-doors (same jati, the same accompanying cetasikas). When it performs the function of rebirth it is doorfreed or processfreed, not arising in a process, not experiencing an object impinging on a door. This has the same object as the javanacittas in the previous life, conditioned by kamma. Then the santiranacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling that is ahetuka kusala vipaka performs the function of rebirth in the human plane in the case of those handicapped from birth, or in lower heavenly planes. That is a weak kusala vipaka. The bhavangacitta and cuticitta are the same types as the patisandhicitta. L: From the next two paragraphs on the same page. According to the > text, if Santirana-citta is accompanied by somanassa, it can perform > the function of santirana through 5 doors and tadarammana through 6 > doors. However, if Santirana is accompanied by upekkha, it can > perform santirana, tadarammana, patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti!THis > is three more functions with no explanation of why. N: See above. Ch 11 and 12. I think you would have to go through several Ch to find the answers. L:Could it be that > if Santirana is accompanied by somanassa you have already reached > enlightenment where cuti, bhavanga and patisandhi no longer apply? N: Note: there are four stages of enlightenment, and only in the case of the fourth stage, of the arahat there is no more rebirth. Santirana accompanied by somanassa cannot perform the functions of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. When you are born with somanassa it means the vipakacitta is sahetuka, accompanied by alobha and adosa, and it may be accompanied by panna. The sahetuka vipakacitta that performs those functions can also be accompanied by upekkha. Your questions were also the same as my husband's. He found it so difficult that one type of citta can perform more than one function. Same as the manodvaravajjanacitta that in a sense-door process can perform the function of votthapana. Nina. P.S. The last edition of ADL is 1997, Triple Gem Press. This is better. 31529 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Sukin, very good. It is helpful if you ask questions. I also need to go slowly. Nina. op 19-03-2004 09:59 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > Only one > thing, I don't consider the DO at all. The very mention of it makes > me very nervous. Whenever I come across DO, there are more questions > than answers. So I am hoping this new discussion thread on DO will > help me. But I will need to go really, slow. 31530 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hi Jeffrey Brooks I am not writing dry vs wet insight. I am not interested in which is better than which or which is taught or which is the only way because it does not help one to understand dhamma any better. I am saying a very simple fact, without insight there is no jhanas. If you look all the suttas you want, that will be the basis, no insight no jhanas (i.e. withdrawal of sensual pleasure). When I talk about insight, I am not saying those insight per se as what we meant when we are enlighted. There is no need to challenge anything, Because what I say can be found in the suttas. I dont reinvent the wheel. Regarding your question where Buddha never mentioned insight in the jhanas when he learn from Kalama and Ramaputta because insight and jhanas are two exlusive events. Jhanas help one to focus on an object and suppress hindrances but it does not bring enlightement. That is why Buddha reject their methods because it does not contain insight of the dhammas as anatta and anicca which lead to enlightenment. If you are on the wet method, it should be insight - jhanas - insight (enlightenment level). It cannot be without insight (or right understanding) as an inital prerequisite. Even you wish to pursue the jhanas or concentration method, a good example will be the breathing sutta when <> - so one see that he has to focus on breath as well as inconstancy of breath, that is called concentration + insight. Then one is established in satipatthana. If you look at the all the sati suttas, concentration is complementary with the understanding of anicca and anatta before one can enters jhanas then to enlightement. It is not concentration per se that cause us to be insightful, it is concentration with the study of the nature of dhamma that leads us to enlightement. For your kind comments, please Ken O 31531 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:20pm Subject: Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hello again, all. If it's not too late, I'd like to retract my question. (If it could be called a question...) Just putting my feelings in words helped to clarify things, as it often does. I hope you will get a smile out of reading it, anyways. There is some good humour in it, I think. Maybe I can turn my neuroses into money the way Woody Allen did. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Dear Abbydhamma, > > I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this subject, > so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque posts > here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion of > dhammas. > 31532 From: Eznir Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Sukin, The story about using the raft to cross the stream and leaving it behind as one proceeds on his way.... has no meaning if not understood in this context of 'control' or 'aiming for results'. Of course there is no 'self' who does the controlling or who aims for results, but there comes a stage, as things proceed, when this need to 'control' or 'aim for results'(that *this*) becomes meaningless! At which time one leaves them behind, like the raft, and proceeds on his way. If one has developed ones eyesight to even see the microbes swimming in ones blood stream, why take a blood sample and use a microscope to see them! One can now do a way with those paraphernalia. Just like that! But you are right, Sukin. There is no doer or self and only Dhammas that rise and fall. Howard is also right! But how do we reconcile this situation? I see it this way. All these words and phrases that we are using in this discussion is only a conventionality that represent our point of view of what Lord Buddha said. In the mind they are simply qualities with no words nor phrases. And these qualities are also only of two kinds that correspond to pleasant feelings and unpleasant feelings. For it is said that everything that arises in the mind flows along with feeling. Feeling then, is the connection between this body & mind. If there is no feeling dukkha can never be comprehended, ie., Dukkha has no meaning! To illustrate my point about the qualities: Wisdom and Ignorance are two ends of the same stick! As we traverse from the ignorance end towards the wisdom end, the quality of `ignorance' in the mind diminishes and correspondingly the quality of `wisdom', again in the mind, increases. The same can be said about kusala and akusala and other things of duality in nature. (Even the masculinity and femininity depends on the nature of a person, and not on the sex organs; though we conventionaly call them male and female.) This increase and corresponding decrease in qualities becomes irreversible at the four junctions of noble attainments, sotapatti, sakadagami, anagami and arahant. Take a puthujjana and an arahant. They too are two ends of the same stick. And a sekha stands in-between! Looking at a sekha from the puthujjana's end of the `stick' he is not an arahant as he still has things to do. Looking from the arahant's end he is not a puthujjana because he has overcome three of the ten fetters that define a puthujjana. Now where do *we* stand on this `stick'? It is from this standpoint of view that *we* should traverse(application of the 4 noble truths) towards the arahant's end of the stick. It is all well that *we* should have a `perfect' view of what the Dhamma is, but if that is not where *we* stand, then *we* should know how to get there. Intention is action. It is this right intention accompanied with right view that gets one to the goal. And as *we* traverse in that direction *we* should shed all the erroneous thoughts that *we* harboured so far(cessation of `little' dukkhas) that contributed to the wrong understanding of the Dhamma. And how does one know the folly of our thoughts? By our own experience of the Dhamma, and definitely not by referencing to external sources! Since kamma is still active in a non-arahant, things cannot be as autonomous as one would like to believe, like in inanimate things. The essential difference between inanimate and animate things is life- action, kamma, the ability to choose(intention). No matter how perfect our theoretical understanding of the intricacies of the Dhamma is, in every moment of our existence we face this question, "what to do with this moment?" And the best course of action would be to do that course of action that would cease the need to do that course of action, eventually!(that is when we leave the raft and go our ways). eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sukin (and Swee Boon and Jack) - > > In a message dated 3/19/04 3:59:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sukinder@k... writes: > > > Hi Swee Boon, Jack and Howard, > > > > > > Swee Boon, I don't think your paraphrase fits with my thoughts. I > > would put them another way. > > > > Swee Boon wrote: > > > > There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. > > There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to > > control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there > > isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. > > You can't try. > > > > Is there anything more defeating than this sort of view? > > > > And what is the result when such a sort of view becomes entrenched? > > > > Non-action. > > > > Instead of pursuing the goal, they thought the goal would pursue > > them. > > > > Sukin: > > All dhammas arise and fall by conditions, including volition. Being > > able to control these conditions is an illusion. There are only > > dhammas arising and falling, no `self' anywhere. `You can't select', > > not only because there is no self, but because citta taking on any > > object is conditioned and not up to any non-existent `chooser'. The > > problem in `attempting' is not just `self-view', but that *this* is > > self-defeating. Ignorance associated with `aiming for results' > > mistakes akusala for kusala, wrong view for right view and so > > instead of developing more panna, one is going the wrong path. > > > > ============================ > "It seems I've heard this song before ... " Anybody recall that old > tune? ;-)) And here comes the same old, familiar refrain: > Sukin, forgoing techno-speak for the moment, let me ask you whether > you can hold your breath for a few seconds (I *know* that you can! ;-) Now, that > is exercising control. You will, of course reply that there is no self who > exercised anything. And I will agree, and reply "So what?"! This is still an > instance of what people normally and conventionally mean by exercising control. > Now, you will likely follow up by saying that the volition that leads to the > breath-holding is not uncaused, but arises automatically from conditions. And I > will reply "Of course that is so! What sort of volition would baseless > volition be? I would be pure randomness! What sort of appeal would anyone find in a > willing that is willing for no reason whatsoever? Why, no appeal! Of *course* > volition, like all conditioned phenomena, arises due to causes and > conditions.So what?" > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. Maybe we should just record this conversation, so that we can play it > back in the future, saving unnecessary finger exercise on the keyboard! What do > you think? > ;-)) > 31533 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Santirana-citta, Chris fwd. Dear Nina, Thank you! I have already forwarded it to Lynn and encouraged both her and any members of that group not to feel hesitant about posting directly to dsg - for the benefit of all of us. (Though I am also happy to continue to forward any questions). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, please frwd to Lynn. 31534 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:33pm Subject: Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hello Phil, and all, I'm awfully sorry, but I've been thinking about your post all day and I'm afraid that you just can't withdraw your questions!:-) I almost replied this morning but had to rush out to my tyrant of a travel agent to pay for my flights to Bkk in April - and then visit rellies on that side of town. I think it was a great post, and just the sort of questions we all have on daily life. What's the point of the dhamma if it doesn't impact on how we live, and on how we think about our lives and relationships in the 'real' world? You say you're neurotic - I think the scriptures say somewhere that All Puthujjana's are Mad - so does this mean you're really normal and on-track? :-) I'll get back to you as soon as I rearrange my thoughts on it. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello again, all. > > If it's not too late, I'd like to retract my question. (If it > could be called a question...) Just putting my feelings in words > helped to clarify things, as it often does. I hope you will get a > smile out of reading it, anyways. There is some good humour in it, I > think. Maybe I can turn my neuroses into money the way Woody Allen > did. > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Abbydhamma, > > > > I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this subject, > > so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque > posts > > here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion of > > dhammas. > > 31535 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hello Philip, After making great promises, my computer had a hissy-fit and deleted a number of things, including the first draft of my post to you. So, I start again - but you know how one can't quite recapture the silken turn of phrase and the precise elucidation of a point or .... :-) :-) There are presently 407 members on this list - most of them are ordinary lay people struggling with just the issues you raise. Some have loving partners with an equal interest in the Teachings, some are unhappy in relationships, some have children they love but who don't necessarily bring happiness, some don't have children and had wanted to have them, some are healthy, some are quite ill, some are young, some are elderly, some are wealthy, some comfortably off, and some worried sick about how to pay bills. And some poor unfortunates have to live alone with a self-centred Great Dane, whose only interest in the Dhamma is listening to the BrahmaVihara chant on Vipassana.com (after dinner please). Generally, life in Samsara is dukkha. Remember the traditional definition of Suffering - "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." -- SN LVI.11 A contemporary definition is: Disturbance, irritation, dejection, worry, despair, fear, dread, anguish, anxiety; vulnerability, injury, inability, inferiority; sickness, aging, decay of body and faculties, senility; pain/pleasure; excitement/boredom; deprivation/excess; desire/frustration, suppression; longing/aimlessness; hope/hopelessness; effort, activity, striving/repression; loss, want, insufficiency/satiety; love/lovelessness, friendlessness; dislike, aversion/attraction; parenthood/childlessness; submission/rebellion; decision/indecisiveness, vacillation, uncertainty. -- Francis Story in Suffering, in Vol. II of The Three Basic Facts of Existence (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983) The circumstances of most lay person's lives demands that they make a living. If a person isn't in a positon to, or doesn't feel inclined to be ordained, then they must fill most of their day doing mundane things to keep a roof over their head, clothe and feed themselves and family, provide medical treatment when necessary, and set aside a proportion for the future. To do otherwise would be negligent and irresponsible, and place a burden on society. By the time most of us in nations with a Social Security system reach retirement age, pensions will be miniscule and available only to a very few hardship cases. As you describe yourself as young middle-aged, it may be necessary to gather information as soon as possible about how to have a comfortable retirement in the country you will retire in. It may involve seeking the advice of an independent retirement counsellor in that particular country, and, after consideration and validating of the advice, putting a structured plan into effect, even if that means retraining in order to obtain available work. This may bring peace of mind to your wife. It will also cause you discuss 'how' and 'where' you want to live now and in the future. I, myself, leave home any time after 7.00 a.m. and arrive home, after an emotionally and physically exhausting day, anytime after 6.00 p.m. and I only live 15 minutes drive from work. Many members work much longer hours away from the home, and are often away from family for weeks at a time. One needs to be organised - especially given the rights of family to have quality time with you also. The Buddha encouraged lay people to be responsible about family finances, and safeguard what wealth they had. Being a Buddhist lay person requires a skillful balance between spiritual and mundane areas of life. The Vyagghapajja Sutta - the Buddha outlines how householders can safeguard wealth: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054.html The Sigalovada Sutta - particularly Part 4 'The Layperson's Code of Discipline' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn31.html There are no moments that are more special or suitable for dhamma study and practice. I hope others will explain in detail how dhammas are arising in each moment and any can be insighted and understood as they really are. Beginning to see existence as it really is, can initially be such a lonely, cold experience that it is tempting to turn back to the warm and loving delusions of soul, creator, or ground of all being. It gets better. :-) At these times we need to remember Azita's sign off - courage, patience and good cheer. Additionally, it would be very foolish to either assume that both you and partner will live a long life, or that both will die around the same time, which is what we do when we project an idea of living into the distant future. Reality is often very different. I'm sure the UP have discussions on The Present Moment being all there is. Do you remember this quote: "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night." Majjhima Nikaya 131. Bhaddekaratta Sutta.(trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi) Getting a partner, child or loved friend interested in the Dhamma requires a deft touch and great skill - as well as a long time frame. And they have to have the accumulations for it. Otherwise, the effect can be to firm up a resistance which will lead to dukkha for them and yourself. In the final analysis, we can only take care of our own spiritual progress - remember there were many who heard a living Buddha but who weren't impressed (imagine that!), and didn't understand - he couldn't 'save' them or change their accumulations. I'd better stop here - but such an interesting subject for reflection - Do you know the definition I most love of what a friend is? "A friend is someone before whom I can think aloud" - thanks for taking the risk and trusting us by asking these sorts of questions. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Phil, and all, > > I'm awfully sorry, but I've been thinking about your post all day and > I'm afraid that you just can't withdraw your questions!:-) > > I almost replied this morning but had to rush out to my tyrant of a > travel agent to pay for my flights to Bkk in April - and then visit > rellies on that side of town. > > I think it was a great post, and just the sort of questions we all > have on daily life. What's the point of the dhamma if it doesn't > impact on how we live, and on how we think about our lives and > relationships in the 'real' world? > You say you're neurotic - I think the scriptures say somewhere that > All Puthujjana's are Mad - so does this mean you're really normal and > on-track? :-) > > I'll get back to you as soon as I rearrange my thoughts on it. :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hello again, all. > > > > If it's not too late, I'd like to retract my question. (If it > > could be called a question...) Just putting my feelings in words > > helped to clarify things, as it often does. I hope you will get a > > smile out of reading it, anyways. There is some good humour in it, > I > > think. Maybe I can turn my neuroses into money the way Woody Allen > > did. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Abbydhamma, > > > > > > I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this > subject, > > > so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque > > posts > > > here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion > of > > > dhammas. > > > 31536 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:48am Subject: Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Group, RobertK has written this post on D.O. and I thought dsg members might find it worthwhile to consider also. metta, Chris --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear group, This is an old letter I wrote about Dependent Origination:: Dear friend you ask "what is the support of ignorance in dependent arising. In other words, what is ignorant" This is the type of inquiry into the teachings that we all must do if we are to benefit fully from them. I guess that you are trying to comprehend how, if there is no self in Buddhism, there can be something that is ignorant. Dependent arising, the paticcusamupadda, is exceedingly difficult to understand, even in theory. And not even arahants can see all aspects. Only a Buddha can fully comprehend and teach it. It is an extremely pithy description of the conditions for birth and death, both from life to life and in a momentary sense. There are many suttas that describe it in diferent ways but we need the extra details that the commentaries give to get a correct understanding of just what it is about. Even then it is very hard. I just got a new copy of the Visuddhimagga (after misplacing my old copy for over two years) and am busy re- reading it; so I will refer to the concise explanations given there (and since you have the Mahidanidana sutta and commentary you can get more details directly). The vissudhimagga gives an entire chapter to paticasamupadda under the section called Panna –bhumi –niddesa, (The soil in which understanding grows.) This is clear knowledge (which is more than mere memory but not yet the highly developed direct understanding) of the khandas, ayatanas (bases) faculities, truths, dependent origination, 24 paccaya etc. The first vipassana nanas are the roots and they arise out of this soil. See XIV 32. It says that one who wants to develop the roots should "first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that are the soil" Your question is very much part of the process of developing wisdom. The first point is that there is no one involved in this description of conditions. The paticcasamupada is simply a description of changing processes. Thus it is not "we" who are having ignorance, nor is it "us" who is being reborn or dying. The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge of anatta, not-self, becomes. Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle. However, at the parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions for it to continue. All namas and rupas cease arising. Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja, ignorance. Visuddhimagga XVII 43: " it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of collection in the aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the bases(ayatanas)…..the meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents knowing the meaning of dukkha described in the four ways as `oppression etc'..Furthermore it is ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and objects of eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination." In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true nature of paramattha dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each other. The commentary to the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield from PTS)defines it (p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]. At the moments we are developing correct understanding of dhammas there is a flicker of light that breaks into the gloom of ignorance, just a little, just for a moment. If these moments keep accumulating then eventually the gloom is dispelled and brightness rules. Ignorance is an asava (latent tendency) that is not completely eradicated until arahantship. But even before one reaches the first stge of enlightenment, sotapanna, it is gradually being attenuated by insight into the nature of paramattha dhammas. It is only in the times of a Buddha sasana that such insight can be developed. I would also like to add something about another factor of the paticusamupadda, that of clinging, upadana. There are four types of clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These three are the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand. See Visuddhimagga xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. I emphasize this because one of the big mistakes I made in my early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense desire. It got so bad I would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. This comes from an idea of control and self. And it is not the way to understand. First there must be a gradual removal of wrongview. We have accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to understand them –not suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in comprehending this point as "sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other kinds (the three types of micchaditthi)" Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. We thus rush in and try to get rid of sense desire clinging not realising that this can be all done with an idea of self, one of the other types of clinging. We think we are stopping the wheel of paticcasamupada; but are only spinning it faster. The path is profound. At the moments there is understanding of any reality - for example, lust, at those moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to supress lust we may succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the more subtle clingings that were present. Robert --- End forwarded message --- 31537 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > RobertK has written this post on D.O. and I thought dsg members might > find it worthwhile to consider also. .... There are also these posts (inc. several of Rob’s) in U.P. If anyone has spare time over the weekend or following weeks, they may like to take a look and repost any as relevant in the study corner: Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada) 822, 8562, 11031, 11168, 11210,11223, 11234, 11326, 11425, 11609, 12256, 12286, 12346, 12723, 20634, 29364, 29435, 30771, 30984 Metta, Sarah ====== 31538 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Larry (and Nina) I've been following this thread between you and Nina. I hope you don't mind if I come in here. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, Larry: I can't make out what you are saying. I am trying to make the case that relationships are ultimately real. Do you reject that or not? Jon: Relationships are real, but they are not dhammas because, by definition, they describe *what obtains between 2 dhammas*. Relationships are not the same as attributes of dhammas but, like those attributes, can only be known by developed understanding of dhammas. That is to say, as dhammas are known more and more by sati/panna, both the attributes of the individual dhammas and the relationships between different dhammas becomes more and more apparent. In other words, relationships cannot be directly known independently of a direct understanding of dhammas. Larry: "Dependent arising" is about relationships is it not? The "cause" of suffering and the "way" to the end of suffering are both relationships. Jon: To my understanding, knowledge of DA and of the Four Noble Truths is likewise the outcome of developed understanding of individual dhammas. Larry: First you reject "image" and now you reject "color". I cannot write without words. How can we communicate? Apparently for you visible data "without conceptual interpretation" (sanna?) is neither image nor color. I really can't believe this, but the point of my argument is that there is more than one "whatever it is that you see" in this visible data. There is natural relationship there already, a group. Jon: Personally I find it easier to talk about one of the other doorways first, so let's try that. The rupa that is audible object is also part of a group of rupas (kalapa) and each kalapa is but 1 of many arising at more or less the same time. But only that particular rupa is experienced by hearing consciousness, so if there is awareness that particular rupa, and not anything else, can be its object. Would you agree that there is no "whatever it is that you hear" *in* the audible data. For example, if conventionally speaking there is hearing of the sound of a person's voice, there are no words *in* the audible data, if of music, no notes, and so on. There is just the audible data; the rest is the product of mental processing. Same thing must apply in the case of visible data experienced through the eye. But we have so much ignorance and wrong view about, and clinging to, the world as we normally perceive it that the reality of the moment of bare experience is never apparent to us, and is even difficult to understand conceptually. I hope this helps. Jon 31539 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Howard, :-) The basic tune would probably stay, but maybe I will develop some `variations on a theme' and while improvising, add some new harmonics and changing rhythms. And I guess the refrain will also have to change accordingly. ;-) Howard: > Sukin, forgoing techno-speak for the moment, let me ask you whether > you can hold your breath for a few seconds (I *know* that you can! ;-) Now, that > is exercising control. You will, of course reply that there is no self who > exercised anything. Sukin: Variation 1. The control is an illusion. (But even this I have said before. ;-)) I once gave the example of a child being taught to draw perfect circles. That he didn't need to know what it is, yet on the surface his circle would match of that done by a mathematician (named Howard). But what Howard knows about circles and what conditioned his drawing is totally different from the child's. In the same way, within any individual, day to day activities done with a sense of control, does not require that the conditions which motivated these are known. *But we do choose to identify with a certain mental image, where there is an "I" acting upon the environment*. This very idea, be it to develop kusala or panna, or simply to go to the supermarket to buy food, is maintained and fortified by other images, namely the `result'. Going to the supermarket and buying exactly what was intended, did not require any knowledge about `other' realities and concepts that were objects of consciousness. Yet it gave rise to a sense of `self having done something'. We can perform conventional actions with little chance of going wrong, for example, `holding the breath'. But this is possible only because the concept of `holding the breath' is being reinforced again and again, so that this activity lasts as long as it does. Also there *are* realities arising alternately all the time, like pain and more thinking about `self', so we don't suffocate to death. In all this there is no self and no real control, just the illusion created by avijja. Howard: And I will agree, and reply "So what?"! This is still an > instance of what people normally and conventionally mean by exercising control. Sukin: Precisely! And this is what feeds on the illusion of self and control and hence making more fast the wheel of samsara. ;-) Howard: > Now, you will likely follow up by saying that the volition that leads to the > breath-holding is not uncaused, but arises automatically from conditions. And I > will reply "Of course that is so! Sukin: Variation 2. I would say that there is no `self' who holds the breath and `breath- holding' is just an idea. When we use conventional examples to justify our understanding of a reality, without really understanding those realities, we reinforce our wrong understanding. Nina has discussed about body intimation and has all along talked about the universal, particular and specific cetasikas. It is *these* that lies behind what we conceive as a `being', and specifically it is avijja which hides the realization of this, giving rise to the idea such as, `we can exercise volition'. `Volition *is*, but why the need for identification? Is there some goal aimed for? Is this why one needs to justify the volition? Why not have some confidence in the dhamma, why not allow the accumulated panna do its job without any wish to speed up the process? Howard: What sort of volition would baseless > volition be? I would be pure randomness! What sort of appeal would anyone > find in a willing that is willing for no reason whatsoever? Sukin: You said it Howard. The appeal! It must appeal. Everyone is so attached to results and the idea of `self' getting there. Which is why they not only create a goal, but they also create an illusion of achieving something. Everyone is blissfully unaware and all support one another in to being reelected into samsara. ;-) Howard: Why, no appeal! Of *course* > volition, like all conditioned phenomena, arises due to causes and > conditions.So what?" Sukin: Because paramattha dhammas always escape our awareness. Which is why we must first learn about their characteristics. Theoretically at first and slowly grow familiar with their gross (snowball effect) manifestations, and gradually we may come to know them well enough to know what they *really do*, by direct experience. And only then can either of us say anything really substantive about volition. ;-) > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. Maybe we should just record this conversation, so that we can play it > back in the future, saving unnecessary finger exercise on the keyboard! What do > you think? > ;-)) Sukin: I'll try to remember. Oh, but would I actually remember just because I intend to do so? ;-) Metta, Sukin. Ps: Howard, since you are now retired, why don't you plan an Asian tour with your wife? You could plan it such a way, that you can be in Bangkok in the middle of next month, when Jon, Sarah and the others are here? And maybe we can discuss about this live?! ;-) 31540 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:25am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, You said: If striving to attain the goal is akusala, there would be no Buddhas. Sukin: Firstly, not all striving is akusala. Secondly, the Bodhisattva resolved to become the Buddha at a time when he *had* the accumulations to become enlightened, but only as a Savaka. Which means that his panna was so great, that he knew quite clearly about realities, including `to resolve'. It is because of the panna associated with this that caused the subsequent `striving'. However, after that particular life, up until the time he did become the Buddha, whatever he did was *with self*. So all his striving was with self, and *no knowledge of anatta*. This is the difference. So you too can `strive', but this may be at the expense of the understanding of anatta.;-) Metta, Sukin 31541 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Dear and Great Jon: > Jon: > Relationships are real, but they are not dhammas because, by > definition, they describe *what obtains between 2 dhammas*. > > Relationships are not the same as attributes of dhammas but, like > those attributes, can only be known by developed understanding of > dhammas. That is to say, as dhammas are known more and more by > sati/panna, both the attributes of the individual dhammas and the > relationships between different dhammas becomes more and more > apparent. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems to me an old Bertrand Russel´s quote about propositional logic: - One says "Scott is Waverley´s author". Propositional logic evaluates the value (if any) of the links and relationships between the concepts of 'Scott" and 'Waverley´s Author´...but what´s being said anyway? The only real entities in these declaration are 'Scott' - a classic writter - and 'Waverley´s author' - a sentence that is the same at the preceeding subject: two Dhammas with no relationship between them, since they are the same! Going further on, many oriental languages haven´t even got the present tense "to be" expressed on such sentences! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon: > Personally I find it easier to talk about one of the other doorways > first, so let's try that. > > The rupa that is audible object is also part of a group of rupas > (kalapa) and each kalapa is but 1 of many arising at more or less the > same time. But only that particular rupa is experienced by hearing > consciousness, so if there is awareness that particular rupa, and not > anything else, can be its object. > > Would you agree that there is no "whatever it is that you hear" *in* > the audible data. For example, if conventionally speaking there is > hearing of the sound of a person's voice, there are no words *in* the > audible data, if of music, no notes, and so on. There is just the > audible data; the rest is the product of mental processing. > > Same thing must apply in the case of visible data experienced through > the eye. But we have so much ignorance and wrong view about, and > clinging to, the world as we normally perceive it that the reality of > the moment of bare experience is never apparent to us, and is even > difficult to understand conceptually. > > I hope this helps. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Excelent!!! Mettaya, ícaro 31542 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:19am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, > Firstly, not all striving is akusala. Well, according to you, all striving with "self" is akusala. > However, after that particular life, up until the time he did > become the Buddha, whatever he did was *with self*. So all his > striving was with self, and *no knowledge of anatta*. Rephrased in another way, are you claiming that the Tathagatha achieved Buddhahood by means of unskillful (akusala) actions? Regards, Swee Boon 31543 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:18am Subject: Backing Off [Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings] Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 3/18/04 8:35:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, I wrote: > I find this amusing, Sarah, the presentation as granite-engraved edict > that there "always is an object." How edifying to know that someone has said > > so in some book somewhere. You ask for a reference. The reference is my > direct > experience of no subject and no objects, but experience nonetheless. This is > > all the reference that I require. (I could go on with a discussion of how, > in > the unravelling phases of D.O., the cessation of vi~n~nana conditions the > cessation of namarupa, and point out how this could only reasonably mean > that with > the cessation of (sense of) knowing subject there occurs the cessation of > known objects, but any such discussion becomes irrelevant when one has > directly > experienced a state of neither subject nor object.) > As far as your requirements are concerned I can't say, but the > following line of thinking does occur: You believe, I think, that there is, > in > reality, no knowing subject. Now I'm not clear on what you consider 'object' > or > 'arammana' to mean, but I assume that you consider subject and object to be > mutually dependent. If you do, then with no subject there is no object. If, > on the > other hand, you treat the word 'object' to mean nothing more than > "phenomenon" > or "(content of) experience", then yes, experience of a nondual sort, > continues even when there is no sense of subject and its objects, and there > is content > to such experience, but I would consider defining 'arammana' as "experience" > > to be an inadequate and misleading definition. > > ========================== I just reread this reply of mine and I am unhappy with it. I am sorry I didn't use a much softer tone. My post obviously expresses annoyance, which is my problem, not yours. I found it silly and a bit of a put-down when you requested a "reference" that might make it believable to you that I actually experienced what I did directly experience. That was how I reacted, which probably was well off-base and surely was a thrashing about of ego! Happily, with regard to a reference, Swee Boon thought of the Kalakarama Sutta, which was, indeed, directly relevant. But in any case, there was no justification for annoyance on my part. I do recognize that what one *thinks* one experiences is not always correct, our "understanding" at all times being under the sway, to some degree or other, of confusion, and it is not unreasonable for you to want to inquire into my interpretation of the experience, and to want to see whether there are reports of similar experiences from sources that you respect. It is still the case that I haven't the slightest doubt that my experience consisted of the absence of a dualistic, knowing-known event, and that while there was multisensory experiential content, there yet was no knowing that was separate from the content, and the content at no time was an object of such a subjective knowing. The experience was no more subjective than objective, and no more objective than subjective. And it is misleading to say it was both, and it is misleading to say it was neither. This is the way it was, and the Kalakarama Sutta really does describe it well. But I recognize that my claimed lack of doubt in the matter should in no way be satisfactory for you. I apologize for my ego-bound annoyance, and, more importantly, I apologize for letting it be expressed with a flavor of sharpness in my post to you. I am particularly displeased with the sarcastic second sentence of mine that I quote above. Sarcasm is far from right speech. Clearly, my experience, which produced some very important and very useful fallout in my life, still very much left my ego sense well intact! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31544 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Eznir, Thanks for your very gentle and considerate post. :-) You said: > The story about using the raft to cross the stream and leaving it > behind as one proceeds on his way.... has no meaning if not > understood in this context of 'control' or 'aiming for results'. Or should we say, that the real meaning would be understood, only when we have reached that stage of development. ;-) > Of course there is no 'self' who does the controlling or who aims for > results, but there comes a stage, as things proceed, when this need > to 'control' or 'aim for results'(that *this*) becomes meaningless! > At which time one leaves them behind, like the raft, and proceeds on > his way. What would be the raft for one who is developing intellectual understanding of the Buddha's teachings? > If one has developed ones eyesight to even see the microbes swimming > in ones blood stream, why take a blood sample and use a microscope to > see them! One can now do a way with those paraphernalia. Just like > that! The problem is when we so called, "use a microscope", we don't notice that our eyes have become watery due to eagerness, and so what we see is distorted. Though we may manage to get our theory right, we still have to watch out for Tanha. > But you are right, Sukin. There is no doer or self and only Dhammas > that rise and fall. Howard is also right! But how do we reconcile > this situation? The "Truth" will do both of us much good. ;-) > I see it this way. All these words and phrases that we are using in > this discussion is only a conventionality that represent our point of > view of what Lord Buddha said. In the mind they are simply qualities > with no words nor phrases. Yes. > Take a puthujjana and an arahant. They too are two ends of the same > stick. And a sekha stands in-between! Looking at a sekha from the > puthujjana's end of the `stick' he is not an arahant as he still has > things to do. Looking from the arahant's end he is not a puthujjana > because he has overcome three of the ten fetters that define a > puthujjana. > > Now where do *we* stand on this `stick'? It is from this standpoint > of view that *we* should traverse(application of the 4 noble truths) > towards the arahant's end of the stick. It is all well that *we* > should have a `perfect' view of what the Dhamma is, but if that is > not where *we* stand, then *we* should know how to get there. Yes, continue to read, listen and ponder, not to be accumulating `information', but to understand. But even if we do this, a great many other conditions will determine if in fact there will be any understanding. And then, when this theoretical level will condition the practice level and how much of that will ultimately condition realization. > Intention is action. It is this right intention accompanied with > right view that gets one to the goal. All the cetasikas accompanying mundane insight will be sobhana, so in a way, you could say that the intention will also be `right'. However, as I understand it, `Intention' does not play any major role with regard to this. The little that I have read, I think the Buddha stressed on Panna, Sati, Concentration and Effort. If anything, I think what determines if a kusala `action' will be completed, is "effort", and this may be why the Buddha stressed quite a bit about this factor. But what is the quality of effort depending on? The other path factors or cetasikas. Let me give you a personal example. Some time ago, I heard on tape, K. Sujin giving the example of two people having the desire to `give'. In one person there is desire to give, but he does not, because there is lack of effort to do it promptly. The second one does, immediately. Soon after I was confronted with a situation where I hesitated to give, not because I didn't have feelings of dana, but it required a little work. At that moment I remembered what K. Sujin said, I saw that the only thing that was holding me back was lack of effort. At this point, effort was aroused, and I gave. The `intention' was more or less the same, but when I gave, I believe panna saw thina and mida, and effort was aroused. > And as *we* traverse in that > direction *we* should shed all the erroneous thoughts that *we* > harboured so far(cessation of `little' dukkhas) that contributed to > the wrong understanding of the Dhamma. And how does one know the > folly of our thoughts? By our own experience of the Dhamma, and > definitely not by referencing to external sources! True. But what foundation is experiential knowledge based upon? Intellectual knowledge, isn't it? Without a firm intellectual knowledge to condition practice and developing understanding through increased familiarity of the characteristic of dhammas, what does it mean to learn and grow in wisdom? If our present level is such that whatever reflection that is done, does not escape any limited and distorted way that we might interpret experiences, is it not wise to reference the external source, namely the Texts? > Since kamma is still active in a non-arahant, things cannot be as > autonomous as one would like to believe, like in inanimate things. > The essential difference between inanimate and animate things is life- > action, kamma, the ability to choose(intention). This sounds like a western philosophical idea? Isn't life more than just to be able to choose (which I don't believe in. ;-)). > No matter how perfect our theoretical understanding of the intricacies of the > Dhamma is, in every moment of our existence we face this > question, "what to do with this moment?" And the best course of > action would be to do that course of action that would cease the need > to do that course of action, eventually!(that is when we leave the > raft and go our ways). And what if one sees at that point, that *this* moment is already conditioned and with it comes detachment, isn't this already an instance of `leaving the raft' no matter how slightly? ;-) Thanks for you comments. It is good to communicate with you. Metta, Sukin. 31545 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > > Firstly, not all striving is akusala. > > Well, according to you, all striving with "self" is akusala. I am feeling somewhat lazy to look at my own posts to see whether if and where I said this. If I did make such a statement, then I must have had you and I in mind. And this too, particularly with referrence to the development of satipatthana. In any case, I do not maintain such a position, and it should have been apparent had you considered why I even wrote the post you were responding to in the first place. My point was to show that only the Buddha's Aditthana could arouse a generally kusala oriented practices in the future. However, yes I would maintain that any striving with `self' with respect to development of "satipatthana" is akusala, namely `wrong view'. And this is considered the worst of the akusala kammapatthas. > > However, after that particular life, up until the time he did > > become the Buddha, whatever he did was *with self*. So all his > > striving was with self, and *no knowledge of anatta*. > > Rephrased in another way, are you claiming that the Tathagatha > achieved Buddhahood by means of unskillful (akusala) actions? Any Swee Boon, Sukin or Howard would know that the Buddha was developing the paramis to perfection, which is definitely KUSALA. Got to go to sleep now. :-) Metta, Sukin. 31546 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:53am Subject: char. of rupas, 3. char. of rupas, 3. As to impermanence, aniccatå, the ³Atthasåliní², in the same section, states about it as follows: ... Fully defined, impermanence of matter has the characteristic of complete dissolution, the merging of matter as function, destruction and evanescence as manifestation, matter undergoing dissolution as proximate cause. As soon as rúpa has arisen, it is led onward to its termination and it breaks up completely, never to come back again. Remembering this is still theoretical knowledge of the truth of impermanence, different from right understanding that realizes the arising and falling away of a nåma or a rúpa. When understanding has not yet reached this stage one cannot imagine what it is like. One may tend to cling to ideas about the arising and falling away of phenomena but that is not the development of understanding. Nåma and rúpa have each different characteristics and so long as one still confuses nåma and rúpa, their arising and falling away cannot be realized. Understanding is developed in different stages and one cannot forego any stage. First there should be a precise understanding of nåma as nåma and of rúpa as rúpa so that the difference between these two kinds of realities can be clearly seen. It is only at a later stage in the development of understanding that the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa can be directly known. The ³Atthasåliní² (in the same section) compares birth, decay and death to three enemies, of whom the first leads someone into the forest, the second throws him down and the third cuts off his head. We read: ... For birth is like the enemy who draws him to enter the forest; because he has come to birth in this or that place. Decay is like the enemy who strikes and fells him to earth when he has reached the forest, because the aggregates (khandhas) produced are weak, dependent on others, lying down on a couch. Death is like the enemy who with a sword cuts off the head of him when he is fallen to the ground, because the aggregates having attained to decay, are come to destruction of life. This simile reminds us of the disadvantages of all conditioned realities that do not last and are therefore no refuge. However, when understanding (paññå) has not realized the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, one does not grasp their danger.... Integration, continuity, decay and destruction are characteristics inherent in all rúpas, they do not have their own distinct nature, thus, they are asabhåva rúpas. They are not produced by the four factors of kamma, citta, food and temperature. The ³Visuddhimagga² (XIV, 79) explains: ...But ³rúpa as characteristic² is called not born of anything. Why? because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breaking up of what has arisen... Nina. 31547 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Dear Philip, Spring is coming but here we have now rain and storm. For you too early for the sakura. I learnt that a Japanese letter should begin with the season. op 20-03-2004 01:46 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > My problem is that - as I posted before- the circumstances of my > life demand that I try to make money, and my new small degree of > right understanding shows me that intending to make money through > concepts/writing is a recipe for great deepening of defilements > rather than progress on uprooting them. N: I asked Lodewijk. He said: Thus, listen to okusan. Look, the Buddha gave very practical advices to laypeople, such as in the Sigalovaada sutta (D.N. Dialogues of the Buddha, no 31). No contradiction between being practical in your daily life and the development of right understanding. They can and should be combined. In this sutta, he speaks about earning money and saving a certain percentage for one's own use, and some for giving away. You carry the Dhamma wherever you go and as to reading, it is not the quantity that matters. Even if you carefully consider a few words you can gain in understanding. Ph: I think the problem comes down to the fact that my best friend/life > partner/wife Naomi has no interest in Buddhism (snipped) > So one thing to do is to help her understand the Buddha's teaching. >..... I am interested in talking to Rob K someday about > how he manages to get Japanese friends and students interested in > dhamma, because in my experience there is aversion to Buddhism on the > part of many Japanese because Buddhism has come to be associated > strictly with funerals and payment priests in exchange for chanting. N: Yes, you can help by talking about life, events, problems you meet, that is dhamma. Dhamma is for application and you do not need to mention the word Abhidhamma or Buddhism. I know the rites are concentrated on the dead, but there is quite another side. (Lodewijk says, go to Koyasan, another side of Japan) I found that even in the middle of a cocktail party (that was my life) it was very easy to talk about problems of life, about deeper things within five minutes. About Dhamma without mentioning Dhamma. One can be very direct. Provided it is in Japanese, kokoro kara (from the heart) you know. I was there only one and a half year, but it was quite an experience, such direct contact. I know very little Kanji, but each Kanji can be a Buddhist lesson. Take *ima*, now, we can talk a lot about it. Or talk about patience. Or peace, heiwa. What is true peace? So with Naomisan, she needs her own time. We must have great respect for others' accumulations. You can gently bring in accumulations, and be an understanding person (as A. Sujin always says) when discussing the problems people in your surroundings may cause, your own problems, characters of different people, problems concerning disease and death. It is so actual. You can see that the Abhidhamma is life. Ph: > I am feeling confused and fearful about how to balance a sincere > interest in the Buddha's teaching with a need to think about the > market place. N: The Dhamma is in the market place, see, it is so natural. Everywhere is dhamma. Thus, no need for fear. As to reading and posting, it is not in the quantity. Make it short posts, it saves you time. Like Mike. He has a busy life. He wrote to me: We have something to reflect on. It is difficult to apply Dhamma in times of trouble, I know. But still, it is worth trying, and very necessary to do so. To conclude with a reminder from Dan that Rob K quoted: prescribing a ritual to guarantee enlightenment, the Buddha > described the nature of reality and suggested that we carefully > consider his words, not just intellectually, but as they apply to each > moment in the day."> Each moment, *ima* again! Nina. 31548 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, > I can't make out what you are saying. I am trying to make the case that > relationships are ultimately real. Do you reject that or not? "Dependent > arising" is about relationships is it not? N: I think you mean how different dhammas are related to each other by different conditioning factors and in different ways. L:The "cause" of suffering and > the "way" to the end of suffering are both relationships. N: yes. But in order to understand conditional relations we have to clearly know the different dhammas involved. We have to be very precise. That is why we study the items in the Vis. one after the other. Otherwise we shall not understand in which ways they are related. They are related in many different ways. L: First you reject "image" and now you reject "color". N: I mean defining different colours is not seeing but already thinking. It is best not to mind about image or this or that colour. *Something* appears through eyes, just for a moment, no need for words. L:I cannot write > without words. How can we communicate? N: right. And also when hearing words you think about the meaning. But what is the dhamma that is heard? Sound. Remember when we studied the four discriminations, and we read about language (nirutti). It is said that the reality is sound. We should also learn the difference between hearing and thinking of the meaning. So many sounds are heard in a day, but you do not always have to think: this is the sound of traffic, this is a radio. When someone speaks to you, there is not each second defining what you hear, there is also just hearing. If there were no hearing of sound how could you get the meaning? Now is the time to apply what we learnt in the Visuddhimagga. Earsense is rupa, it is ready for impact of sound, just sound, nothing else, so that hearing can arise. Sound is rupa, hearing is nama, they have different characteristics. Earsense is base and also the doorway for the experience of sound. Hearing arises at the earbase. Thinking about the meaning arises at the heartbase. There are many processes going on so fast: a word can consist of different syllables and imagine, in between there are mind-door processes of cittas that remember meanings. Sa~n~naa does its task of marking and remembering, so that you can remember a whole sentence which has a meaning. Countless processes involved, as Christine reminded us of in her . L: Apparently for you visible data > "without conceptual interpretation" (sanna?) is neither image nor color. > I really can't believe this, but the point of my argument is that there > is more than one "whatever it is that you see" in this visible data. N: No, there is not more to it. But it takes time for us worldlings to understand. We make life more complicated than necessary. L: There is natural relationship there already, a group. N: Not yet, not yet! Seeing only sees all that appears through the eyesense. When seeing arises at the eyebase, there is no thinking of conditions, of groups. Just plain seeing. It is not as complicated as you think. What I said about hearing applies to seeing and all sense-cognitions. Visible object is in a group together with the other seven inseparables, but, as we discussed, only visible object can impinge on the eyesense and be seen, not the others. Thus, it is impossible to see a whole group of rupas. Visible object is the only rupa out of twentyeight that is visible. See Dhammasangani! Visible and impinging. As I see it, this is essential. When thinking on account of seeing etc. arises, defilements are bound to arise. Read all the suttas about this. If dhammas are not distinguished we are entangled. It seems that seeing and hearing arise at the same time, or seeing and thinking. We do not know the difference between sense-door processes and mind-door processes, they follow one upon the other extremely fast. We do not even realize when there are defilements, especially when they are subtle. Nina. 31549 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_( §_3.3) Hi Victor, which part of the Samiddhisutta is this? I have the Pali text and can check. Nina. op 20-03-2004 02:37 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said > > > Having shed classifications, > gone beyond conceit, > he has here > cut > through craving > for name > & form: > > > I wonder if shedding of classification is also meant by the > principle/criteria of shedding. Perhaps it can be further examined > textually by looking into the Pali original for the word 'shedding.' 31550 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_( §_3.3) Hi Nina, That would great! Thank you. The passage I quoted is from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-020.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > which part of the Samiddhisutta is this? I have the Pali text and can check. > Nina. > op 20-03-2004 02:37 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > > I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said > > > > > > Having shed classifications, > > gone beyond conceit, > > he has here > > cut > > through craving > > for name > > & form: > > > > > > I wonder if shedding of classification is also meant by the > > principle/criteria of shedding. Perhaps it can be further examined > > textually by looking into the Pali original for the word 'shedding.' 31551 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 3/20/04 1:53:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > L: Apparently for you visible data > >"without conceptual interpretation" (sanna?) is neither image nor color. > >I really can't believe this, but the point of my argument is that there > >is more than one "whatever it is that you see" in this visible data. > N: No, there is not more to it. But it takes time for us worldlings to > understand. We make life more complicated than necessary. > L: There is natural relationship there already, a group. > N: Not yet, not yet! Seeing only sees all that appears through the eyesense. > When seeing arises at the eyebase, there is no thinking of conditions, of > groups. Just plain seeing. > =========================== I must be a little nutty, but I agree with both of you! ;-)) I certainly agree that when there is (just) seeing, there is nothing but visual content, and only afterwards mental operations add to the information. However, what I also think, and this may be what Larry is driving at, is that the visual content is not a homogeneous sameness or blank slate, but consists of a visual pattern that is the basis for the subsequent sa~n~nic and sankharic processing, and, thus, the details (re)cognized after the fact are not created out of whole cloth. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31552 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Jon and Nina, Huh??? What??? Never mind. Larry ps: Remember, everything you see is edible. Insight into anatta can be found in group dynamics. 31553 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Vism.XIV 67 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 67. And in the Commentary, after saying 'It is genesis that is called "setting up", increase that is called "growth", occurrence that is called "continuity" ', this simile is given: 'Genesis as setting up is like the time when water comes up in a hole dug in a river bank; increase as growth is like the time when it fills [the hole]; occurrence as continuity is like the time when it overflows'. And at the end of the simile it is said: 'So what is stated? Setting up is stated by sense-base; sense-base is stated by setting up'. Consequently, it is the first genesis of material instances that is their 'setting up'; the genesis also of others that are generated in addition to those is 'growth' since it appears in the aspect of increase; the repeated genesis also of others that are generated in addition to those is 'continuity' since it appears in the aspect of anchoring. This is how it should be understood to have been declared thus. 31554 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: Backing Off [Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings] Howard It was kind of you to write this follow-up, which I'm sure Sarah will appreciate when she sees it. As I was planning to come in on your earlier post anyway, I'll pick up the thread here. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Sarah - ... Howard: I found it silly and a bit of a put-down when you requested a "reference" that might make it believable to you that I actually experienced what I did directly experience. ... Happily, with regard to a reference, Swee Boon thought of the Kalakarama Sutta, which was, indeed, directly relevant. Jon: It may not have been apparent to Sarah (it certainly wasn't to me) that in your earlier post you were claiming to speak purely from personal experience when you said: "In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, phenomena are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no objects. There is a mutual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience continued." I assumed that you were describing the arahant's position as you understood it from a reading of the texts, and were incidentally alluding to a somewhat similar experience for yourself. From what you now say, however, it seems that you were perhaps iimputing to the arahant a position based on experiences of your own, for which you have managed to find a matching description somewhere in the texts. In my view this is an ultimately self-defeating approach to the study of the teachings. (I am reminded of another member who, using a similar approach, is convinced that he has high attainments and that he and he alone understands correctly the meaning of samatha (jhana) and vipassana.:-)). Getting back to the core dhamma issues being discussed here, however, the ideas of 'losing a sense of self', 'loss of subjectivity', and 'loss of objects' are not ones that I am familiar with from the texts. Perhaps you cloud elaborate on your understanding of the Kalakarama Sutta in this regard, or mention any other references that have since come to mind. Howard: I do recognize that what one *thinks* one experiences is not always correct, our "understanding" at all times being under the sway, to some degree or other, of confusion, and it is not unreasonable for you to want to inquire into my interpretation of the experience, and to want to see whether there are reports of similar experiences from sources that you respect. Jon: AS I've mentioned before, I'm not sure how helpful to others is any individual's claimed experience. More helpful in my view is an explanation of the individual's understanding of the teachings, by reference to the body of the teachings (i.e., not as a claimed experience). After all, if individual A and individual B relate dissimilar experiences, the only way to judge which of the two (if either) might be in accordance with the teachings is by reference to the teachings themselves. So why not just go with that from the outset? Of course, one's interpretation of the texts is bound to be influenced by one's own experience, so personal idiosyncrasies will become sufficiently apparent in this manner ;-)). Jon 31555 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Excellent Hasituppada, well said, you have lifted up what has fallen over do to neglect. Very good. However, there is just one small point where you say the following: "He sat by the Bodhi tree and went throught the preliminary stages of meditation by absorption of rupa dna arupa jhana, then he came out of it and with that mind cleared through concentration tried to understand the reality of Dukkha and the suffering in samsara. " While I agree the suttas consistently say the Buddha, and his disciples entered into absorption via jhana, I have not found a reference to support a belief that one "comes out of absorption (jhana) to enter into insight (vipassana)." This may seem like a small point, and when you have done such an excellent job already. However, I believe as long as we keep thinking that jhana and vipassana are somehow separate, I am afraid this duality and actual betrayal of jhana and the Buddha's dhamma, will simply rear its ugly head once again. Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/19/04 4:57:29 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:26:56 -0000 From: "hasituppada" Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Friends, I do not personally believe in a "dry" or a "wet" insight. Lord Buddha made his discourse to make his disciples understand the importance of "meditation" the only way out of cycle of death and birth. <.....> 31556 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hello Swee Boon, and thank-you ever so much for your kind response, however I believe if you read the Lohicca Sutta, DN 12 you will see these 6 "higher knowledges" are the very definition of Supramundane, and in fact that is why they are called "higher knowledges," because they are supramundane (lokuttara). They are supramundane because they are need for the ending of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha). Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/19/04 4:57:29 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:04:05 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Jeff, It's because the 5 mundane higher knowledges do not lead to the ending of stress. <......> 31557 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:07pm Subject: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hello Ken O, I find much to agree in what you say. Dhammapada Verse 372 Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption. To me insight is just one of the supramundane fruits of absorption. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:19:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Ken O Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hi Jeffrey Brooks I am not writing dry vs wet insight. I am not interested in which is better than which or which is taught or which is the only way because it does not help one to understand dhamma any better. I am saying a very simple fact, without insight there is no jhanas. <.....> 31558 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Victor Thanks for your comments. The relationship between the development of the path and control of the faculties is an interesting one. As I see it, only for the arahant is there is 'perfect control' of the faculties, in that no akusala of any kind arises ever. And the reason why no akusala arises ever is that all latent tendencies for akusala have been eradicated. Thus while the arahant is fully controlled in his/her faculties, it is not a case of the arahant 'exercising/having control' in the sense that that expression is normally used -- there is no need for that kind of volition/effort. For the non-arahant who is developing the path, there is control over the faculties at moments when sati arises to perform that function. Of course, the more that insight has been developed, and the closer a person is to path consciousness, the more frequent will be the arising of sati and so the greater the control. But again, it's not a case of the person 'exercising/having control' in the normal sense of the expression. For the mere beginner there is very little or no control of the faculties. But that will be developed as awareness is gradually developed. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for sharing your thought. I would think that it is > impossible for one to eradicate greed, aversion, and delusion > without keeping control of one's faculties. > > Metta, > Victor 31559 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Phil I think we can all recognise and relate to your experience here of the conceit and self-interest that underlies much of what we do in a day (including what little among what we do that may be kusala). Let me just suggest we shouldn't expect that fundamental state of affairs to change any time soon and, needless to say, if we changed out activities to 'avoid' those associated with conceit or self-interest with the idea that this would be a more kusala course of action then that could just be another pitfall. Regarding the dhamma and hustling your children's picture-book stories, there need not be any conflict, although this can be difficult to see at first. As understanding grows one becomes more skilful in kusala, one sees ways of pursuing the same livelihood with less akusala. So if you have talent, by all means exploit it! An interest in dhamma does not have to interfere with one's personal responsibilities (in fact should be a support in that regard -- but this can take time to see also). Jon --- Philip wrote: > > Hello Jon, Nina and all. ... So I asked myself if there conceit in this, and at first said no. But then as I kept thinking I realized what I was up to. I am seeking to transform the world I live in to make it a pleasant environment to operate in. I am making a beautiful playing ground for self. I thought of that movie "Pleasantville" where all was a black and white world until elements of colour started to arise. I am intentionally seeking to colour my world in a rose-coloured way, to make it into METTA LAND so I can feel comfortable and happy. Also, I think it's metta as an evolutionary tactic. I am in a situation now where I have to get cracking about coming up with ways to make money through my writing. I'm hitting middle age with a small salary, no pension and a wife. Transforming my world to make it a metta field is a kind of evolutionary survival tactic to make Japan a more supportive environment in which I can go out and hustle my children's picture book stories. (Japan is a meeca for picture book writers, because adults read them here too.) The picture book world is a "survival of the friendliest" kind of environment, maybe! Anyways, I see now what I've been up to. I don't think I can afford to stop it right now. I do have to hustle those stories. I do have to generate wordly ambition or my wife and I will be in trouble in our old age. Alas, worldly concerns will handicap my movement towards enlightenment in this lifetime. I think if I were single it would be different. 31560 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Howard Thanks for this explanation. I realise you weren't relating the issue to dependent origination, but anything that holds true as regards the nature of phenomena must of course be consistent with that aspect of the teaching also. Could you elaborate though on the connection between your main point (i.e., dhammas as being not different from their distinctive characteristic) and your follow-on comment that 'there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes'. And, are you saying that the inability to (consistently) distinguish between conditions and attributes is a reflection of our present deluded state, or that it is something that is beyond even developed panna? Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nina) - ... I wasn't relating this issue to dependent origination. My point was merely that each actual dhamma is a single condition, itself, and not some "thing" that satisfies various conditions. Nina's statement "The dhammas themselves are not different from the quality they possess. In fact the Atthasalini says that 'there is no other thing than the quality born by it' " is exactly what I had in mind. With metta, Howard 31561 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:46pm Subject: Re: Backing Off [Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings] Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/20/04 6:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > I assumed that you were describing the arahant's position as you > understood it from a reading of the texts, and were incidentally > alluding to a somewhat similar experience for yourself. From what > you now say, however, it seems that you were perhaps iimputing to the > arahant a position based on experiences of your own, for which you > have managed to find a matching description somewhere in the texts. > > In my view this is an ultimately self-defeating approach to the study > of the teachings. (I am reminded of another member who, using a > similar approach, is convinced that he has high attainments and that > he and he alone understands correctly the meaning of samatha (jhana) > and vipassana.:-)). > ======================== Just for the record: I make no claim whatsoever to "high attainments"! ;-)) I believe that what I had was a very small, initial opening, a kind of insight experience in which there was no sense of subjectivity or corresponding objectivity. The experience was terribly frightening, and, most unfortunately, abandoned as soon as it was possible to do so. As far as it went, it was no more then a taste of what the Zennists would call satori, I guess. It seems to have been a useful event in my life, but I make no more claim for it than that. Part of the usefulness, a small part, was in it enabling me to see that it is actually possible to experience without subject-object duality. It serves as an experiential basis for my interpreting vi~n~nana as subjective (self-oriented) knowing, but that interpretation of vi~n~nana would make sense to me anyway, as I find it clarifies D.O. for me considerably. With regard to the Kalakarama Sutta, I see the following portion of it as describing experience that is free of subject and free of object: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing.... "When sensing.... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. -------------------------------------------------- One more thing: I do believe that when sense of self is fully uprooted (in an arahant) his/her experience then becomes free of any sense of knowing subject and known object. It seems to me that such would have to be the case when atta-sense is completely torn away. This seems close to being tautologous. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31562 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/20/04 7:54:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for this explanation. I realise you weren't relating the > issue to dependent origination, but anything that holds true as > regards the nature of phenomena must of course be consistent with > that aspect of the teaching also. > > Could you elaborate though on the connection between your main point > (i.e., dhammas as being not different from their distinctive > characteristic) and your follow-on comment that 'there is no > consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes'. And, > are you saying that the inability to (consistently) distinguish > between conditions and attributes is a reflection of our present > deluded state, or that it is something that is beyond even developed > panna? > ======================== No, no. sorry I wasn't clear. Forget the word 'consistent' - it added nothing. These were two ways of saying the same thing. Paramattha dhammas are single, direct experiential conditions, and such an event doesn't *have* an attribute or *satisfy* a condition; it *is*a condition. Hardness, for example, is not the attribute or property of something; it is an experiential condition. When we think of a table (a conventional object), the paramattha dhammas that pa~n~natti subsumes, including hardness, are thought of as attributes of the table. But there is no table, and the hardness is not a property of a (non-existent) table, but is a condition. Our tendency to think of paramattha dhammas (like hardness) as characteristics of conventional objects (like tables), carries over to our thinking about paramattha dhammas, themselves, and expecting them to have properties or satisfy conditions - but they do not, they are what they are, direct, elementary experiential conditions, themselves. With metta, Howard > > Jon > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Nina) - > ... > I wasn't relating this issue to dependent origination. My > point was merely that each actual dhamma is a single condition, > itself, and not some "thing" that satisfies various conditions. > Nina's statement "The dhammas themselves are not different from the > quality they possess. In fact the Atthasalini says that 'there is no > other thing than the quality born by it' " is exactly what I had in > mind. > > With metta, > Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31563 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, > However, yes I would maintain that any striving with `self' with > respect to development of "satipatthana" is akusala, namely `wrong > view'. And this is considered the worst of the akusala kammapatthas. So, Sukin, is it possible to strive without self-identity view? Is it possible to 'control' without self-identity view? Is it possible to 'select' without self-identity view? Is it possible to 'attempt' without self-identity view? Is it possible to 'try' without self-identity view? Regards, Swee Boon 31564 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:49pm Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Jeff, > They are supramundane because they are needed > for the ending of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha). It is not so, Jeff. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html Regards, Swee Boon 31565 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yuganaddha Sutta Htoo and Swee Boon Regarding the issues you are discussing in this thread and the associated one on the Pansadhovaka Sutta AN III, 100, I have checked the 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' translation of the Pansadhovaka Sutta ('Refinement of the Mind' -- see relevant part copied below). I have found the following that may be of interest: 1. A footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the Pali terms for "higher mental states experienced in meditation" referred to in that sutta, and for the "agitation caused by higher states of mind" referred to in the Yuganaddha Sutta AN IV, 170, are different, namely 'dhammavitakka' here vs. 'dhammuddhacca' there, but that the explanation given by the commentary is the same in both cases, namely, the ten corruptions of insight meditation ('dasa vipassanuupakkilesaa). It gives a x-ref to Vism XX, 105-28. 2. Another footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the attainments mentioned in the sutta are the six "super-knowledges" ('abhi~n~naa'), about which it says: "Five of these are mundane; the sixth is the supramundane attainment of arahantship, here called the destruction of the taints('aasavakkhaya'). "The necessary condition for the five super-knowledges is mastery over the fourth jhaana; the foundation for arahantship is the development of insight based on concentration." For the five mundane super-knowledges, a x-ref to Vism Ch. XII and XIII is given. (The other point of interest about the Pansadhovaka Sutta is the phrase "whenever the necessary conditions obtain", which qualifies the description of each of the attainments beginning "If he wishes, ...". According to the footnote, this refers to the preliminary conditions required for the attainments.) 3. As regards the fourth way of attainment of enlightenment mentioned in the Yuganaddha Sutta, a footnote there explains: "'Dhammuddhacca-viggahita.m manasa.m hoti.' According to AA, the "agitation" (uddhacca) meant here is a reaction to the arising of the ten "corruptions of insight" ('vipassananuupakkilesa') when they are wrongly taken as indicating path-attainment." Jon NDB, Text 41, 'The Refinement of the Mind -- 1' ... "When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about *higher mental states experienced in meditation*. That concentration is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity, nor has it achieved mental unification; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements. But there comes a time when his mind becomes inwardly steadied, composed, unified and concentrated. That concentration is then calm and refined; it has attained to full tranquillity and achieved mental unification; it is not maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements. Then, to whatever mental state realisable by direct knowledge he directs his mind, he achieves the capacity of realizing that state by direct knowledge, whenever the necessary conditions obtain. If he wishes ... etc" --- htootintnaing wrote: ... [Swee Boon:] It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about regarding the fourth type of arahant. However, I suspect that this has something to do with the Pansadhovaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html [Yuganaddha Sutta] "Then there is the case where a monk's mind ...becomes unified & concentrated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html [Pansadhovaka Sutta] "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint." [Htoo:] I feel that this type is not labeled which is good, in my opinion. A monk who declared that he attained arahatship in the presence of Venerable Ananda, has his restlessness concerning Dhamma well under control became calm and saw inward and attained arahatta magga nana. Even though it is not stated that whether there is preceeding tranquil or insight, both are there while he attained arahatship. Regarding Sangha Sutta or Pansadhovaka Sutta, I feel it is mentioning vitekkama, pariyutthana, and anusaya kilesa and their screening through sila, samadhi and panna. Latter parts are, I think, cittanupassana and with that bhikkhus attain higher nana. 31566 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Phil I just came across some notes on this general area, based on the Soma Thera translation, I made some time ago now for a post. I thought you might be interested to see the list I came up with then. As Nina says, we need not be too concerned about subtle differences in terminology (although I agree it's interesting to know, and I found Suan's explanation helpful). As you can see from the list, there are many shades of meaning (e.g., 'knows with understanding' vs. 'understands'). Jon From 'The Way of Mindfulness' translation of the Satipatthana Sutta [Body] Mindful, he breathes in thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands 'thinking thus, he trains himself understands: 'I am going'; is a person practising clear comprehension reflects... thinking thus thinks of his own body thus [Feeling] experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands... [Consciousness] understands the consciousness with lust [Mental objects] knows with understanding [5 hindrances] thinks: 'Thus is material form...' [5 khandhas] understands the eye and material forms [6 sense-bases] knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor [7 enlightenment factors] understands: 'This is suffering,' [4 noble truths] --- Philip wrote: > Hello all > > I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of > > the satipatthana sutta. 31567 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 3 Dear Group, This post begins to set the scene and shows how the Mahaanidaana Sutta came to be spoken by The Fortunate One - with Aananda's statement as one of the conditions. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- "Cast and Setting Among the many suttas on dependent arising spoken by the Buddha, the Mahaanidaana Sutta is the longest and the most detailed; it is also perhaps the richest as a source of insights. Despite its length, however, the Mahaanidaana Sutta does not give the most complete formal exposition of dependent arising. It lacks the abstract formula and a statement of the sequence of cessation. Moreover, its series of conditions omits three factors of the standard version: ignorance, volitional formations, and the six sense bases (avijjaa, sankhaaraa, salaayatana). These omissions have led some scholars to suggest that the twelvefold formulation may be a later augmentation of a shorter original; but such suggestions remain purely conjectural, misleading, and objectionable on doctrinal and textual grounds. All in all, the omissions of the Mahaanidaana Sutta are more than compensated for by its detailed explanations, interesting digressions, and supplementary sections. Indeed, it might well be suspected, contrary to the thesis of historical development, that in the present sutta the Buddha has varied the usual exposition expressly to create an opportunity for such special methods of treatment. [3] The sutta begins when the Venerable Aananda, the Buddha's personal attendant, approaches the Master and exclaims that though dependent arising is deep and appears deep, to himself it seems "as clear as clear can be" (uttaanakuttaanaka). The Pali word uttaana, "clear," also means "shallow," and is sometimes contrasted with "deep" (gambhiira), as in the example given in the commentary. Thus Aananda's words, though doubtlessly innocent and respectful in intent, confront the Buddha with a challenge. They call upon him to reconfirm the profundity of his teaching by demonstrating the depth of its most distinctive doctrine. The Buddha first checks the Venerable Aananda with the gentle admonition: "Do not say so, Aananda! Do not say so, Aananda!" These words, according to the commentary, intimate both praise and reproach. They praise Aananda by implying his special qualities which enabled him to comprehend dependent arising so clearly: his accumulation of merit over many lives, his previous study, his attainment of stream entry, his vast erudition. They reproach him by hinting at the limitations of his understanding: he could never have penetrated conditionality without the guidance of the Buddha; he still remains a stream-enterer barely past the entrance to the path; even when he reaches the final stage or arahatship he will not attain the knowledge of a chief disciple, a paccekabuddha, or a fully enlightened Buddha. In the sutta itself, after restraining the Venerable Aananda, the Buddha corrects him by repeating his original statement on the profundity of dependent arising: "This dependent arising, Aananda, is deep and it appears deep." The phrase about the deep appearance, the subcommentary says, is added to stress the fact that dependent arising is exclusively deep. We might perhaps understand the first phrase to refer to dependent arising as an objective principle, the second to refer to the verbal exposition of that principle. Together they indicate that dependent arising is deep both in essence and in manifestation." 31568 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Dear Philip, No, a very good question, going straight to reality. I did not see it as strange or neurotic, on the contrary. I liked talking to you about daily life problems! Always a good subject. Am I glad you were too late to retract your question, I would not like to have missed Christine's great post. I find the reminders about dukkha in life very helpful, dukkha can hit so hard. Note in the Sigalovadasutta the end: satipatthana is implied in all suttas. Nina. op 20-03-2004 08:20 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > If it's not too late, I'd like to retract my question. (If it > could be called a question...) Just putting my feelings in words > helped to clarify things, as it often does. I hope you will get a > smile out of reading it, anyways. There is some good humour in it, I > think. Maybe I can turn my neuroses into money the way Woody Allen > did. 31569 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_( §_3.3) Hi Victor: op 20-03-2004 20:00 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: >> >>> I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said >>> >>> >>> Having shed classifications, N:Pali has: pahaasii sankha.m. Pjahati: give up, abandon. Pahaasii: he has abandoned. san"nkhaa: definition, enumeration. He has abandoned (or renounced) notions. My PTS glosses from the Co: The arahat has put away such notions as lusting, being angry, confused. The Co explains that the fairy mentions the eightfold Path. She has understood the Middle Path between self-indulgence and self-torture. Nina. >>> gone beyond conceit, >>> he has here >>> cut >>> through craving >>> for name >>> & form: 31570 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:32am Subject: One who dwells in the Dhamma Hi Group, "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon 31571 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: One who dwells in the Dhamma Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Regards, Swee Boon 31572 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon and Nina, > > Huh??? What??? Never mind. > > Larry Ouch! A total rejection. Larry, couldn't you please find a little something in my post that you can say you find understandable (you don't necessarily have to agree) ;-)) Oh well, as long as I'm being put in the same boat as Nina I'm happy! Jon > ps: Remember, everything you see is edible. Hmm, needs further pondering on. Is it Zen? Should I come back with "And everything you touch is visible"? I never was any good at these enigmatic retorts. > Insight into anatta can be found in group dynamics. Hmm again. I suppose this list is an instance of group dynamics, so I won't argue with the statement (note: *can be* found, not *is* found)! 31573 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:00am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Howard (and Swee Boon and Jack) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi,Swee Boon (and Jack) - Howard: The statements "There is no self that controls anything" and "There can't be control" are not equivalent - the first does not imply the second. Analogously, there is no self that sees anything, yet there is seeing; there is no self that tastes anything yet there is tasting; and so on, for all the sense domains. Jon: A good point, Howard. Just to develop your analogy a little further, while it can truly be said that "... there is seeing", it's important to realise that the statement 'there is control' or 'there is a tree' would have to be understood as being true in a wholly different way. This is because seeing is one of the phenomena that arise in samsara, whereas 'control' and 'tree' are not, and so they cannot be said to 'be' or 'occur' in the way that seeing and the other dhammas that comprise the aggregates, sense bases and elements do. Howard: There is no absolute control of things, but volition arises and has influence - and that does not require a self. Jon: Agreed, but I think that this is such a generalisation (e.g., 'of things') that we really need to go further and ask what what exactly does volition influence and by what means? Does volition for example influence the immediately following experiences through the sense-doors and, if so, how or to what extent? Howard: Taking 'control' to mean merely 'influence', what is true as I see it is that there is no self who controls anything, but there *is* control. Jon: So you would the statement 'there is control' is correct only if 'control' means 'a degree of influence'!! Doesn't this make something of a mockery of the statement? Is it appropriate to regard being able to *exert a degree of influence* over something as being *in control* of it? (Not a very satisfactory form of control, I'd suggest ;-)). And anyway, as I said above, for the statement to be meaningful we would need to say *over what* there is control. Jon 31574 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:23am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jon, > And anyway, as I said above, for the statement to be meaningful > we would need to say *over what* there is control. There is no control over the 3 characteristics of dhammas. But there is control over whether kusala or akusala dhamma arises. This, I think, is the function of cetana. Though cetana is conditioned by many conditions, yet in no way is the function and power of cetana mitigated by way of being conditioned thus. Whether or not self-identity view arises, cetana is still cetana. Control is still control. Cetana is cetana. Self-identity view is self-identity view. The two are not the same. Neither do they always occur together. Regards, Swee Boon 31575 From: hasituppada Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Jeff, It is often said a meditator "goes into"* Samadhi, "arrives at"* one pointed concentration, "attains" *jhana "absorptions"*, "attains" *arahathood, "attains" Nibbana, "sit for"* insight meditation and so on and so forth. But you know well Jeff, there is no "goes into"*, "arrives at"* "attains"* "sits for"* "absorptions"*, they are all CONVENTIONAL TERMS used to describe a mental experience, which only the one who experiences knows, and in explaining using "conventional terms" the experience is invariably distorted. That is why it is best not to discuss these experiences with those who have not experienced them, because they are beyond their understanding and will ridicule you through their ignorance of the experience. When I said "comes out of"* Jhana to experience insight, I am using one of these conventional terms. The "coming out of jhana"* is not like opening a door and walk into the openair !!(...and coming back "to sit for"* insight) It is a mental process. In Jhana absorptions you "go in to"* each stage in order, first the first Jhana, then the Second Jhana, third Jhana, and the forth Jhana . When you "enter into"* each jhana there is a predetermined time to "dwell"* in that jhana. It may be five, ten , 15 minutes, one hour or more. At the end of the predetermined time the Jhana "state"* of the mind "falls away"* ( an experienced meditator will know when it has "fallen away"*), and then he predetermines "a period of time"* for the next stage, until you come to the fourth. And at the end of the predetermined time for the forth Jhana absorption, it "falls away"*. The Meditator knows "it has fallen away"*. Then he meditates on the body position , the breath, the elements and "see"* anicca, dukkha and anatma in various ways. The meditator is now "stepping into"* insight meditation. Here he has "finished"* jhana absorptions and" continues"*(if you wish) insight meditation. Discourses only explain the different aspects of the teaching and how a disciple should understand them. The discourses are the sign posts directing the meditator (disciple) to MEDITATION, the only way to "attain"* Nibbana. In several discourses like in the Anapanasati Sutta, it is said the Buddha sees his elders (the senior disciples) teaching the Bikkhus, one a group of ten, another a group of 20, another a group of 30, and another group of 40, and the Buddha is satisfied with the community of Bikkus discussing or stuying in silence. What the Bikkhus were discussing with the elders or what instructions (kammatthana) they received from the elders are not mentioned in the Suttas. The Commentaries are on the Suttas and silent on the issue of instructions given to disciples. Therefore, one cannot every time quote reference to Suttas, when matters fundamental to teachings such as Meditation is discussed. Some Suttas refer to Jhana others do not, that is no reason for us to come to the conculsion there is a"wet" insight and a "dry" insight. Buddha spoke of Anapanasati as an object of meditation, but there are now other objects of meditation., which are not referred to in the Suttas. Samatha is the "spring board"* to Insight, without Samatha you cannot take the" leap"*. To that extent they are " one and the same" integral parts of Meditation. With metta, Hasituppada * conventional terms. _____________________________________________________________________ However, there is just one small point where you say the following: "He sat by the Bodhi tree and went throught the preliminary stages of meditation by absorption of rupa dna arupa jhana, then he came out of it and with that mind cleared through concentration tried to understand the reality of Dukkha and the suffering in samsara. " While I agree the suttas consistently say the Buddha, and his disciples entered into absorption via jhana, I have not found a reference to support a belief that one "comes out of absorption (jhana) to enter into insight (vipassana)." This may seem like a small point, and when you have done such an excellent job already. However, I believe as long as we keep thinking that jhana and vipassana are somehow separate, I am afraid this duality and actual betrayal of jhana and the Buddha's dhamma, will simply rear its ugly head once again. Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks 31576 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon Swee Boon as you said that cetana does not mean control. So how does there be a control of kusala and akusla dhamma, which you said the function of cetana. IMHO, control is a mental construct rather than a cetasika. I think a lot of people misunderstand that cetana as a translation of control. The function of cetana is co-ordinating activty, so it is an act, a volition. An act does not mean a control. Since Buddha already said that aggregates are not self, so none can have it thus "let my aggregates be thus, let my aggregates not be thus". Translation of cetana should conform to this principle. How dhamma become akusala or kusala does not merely dependent on cetana, it has other factors like tendecies, accumulations, whether there was wise attention. Ken O 31577 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:06am Subject: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hello all, Browsing around in UPs found this very straightforward sutta passage about right understanding posted by rob k. (see below in its entirety): > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > wholesome states I think one of the greatest benefits of coming across this group is the emphasis that is placed on right understanding. In the past, I would have thought of setting a right intention in the hopes of resultant right speech and right action leading to right understanding as a kind of fruit of the practice. How silly that was. I think it was Sarah who pointed out that my fear of angry outbursts could be sorted out through right understanding, and I have been finding that new tendency to look at my understanding whenever dosa arises. I think right understanding is arising. Right understanding - to the degree that I am capable of it - means understanding myself and others as rupa and nama. That is so undeniably liberating - except when neuroses have their day and cloud right understanding. > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > one of > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > speech, right > action springs up. My small moments of right understanding (of true nature of phenomena, which can be grasped intellectually by even a beginner like myself) condition right thinking, which in turn conditions speech and action. (as we see in the opening vs of the dhammapada - "all that we are is the result of what we have thought" - to paraphrase.) Or does this underestimate the rarity and subtlety of right understanding? Those who practice in the tradition of K Sujin see sati as a rare achievment - so why is right understanding not also rare? Can a beginner like myself, who has often enough revealed his gross lack of understanding, also have right understanding at times just by thinking about rupa and nama? (along with the occasional more direct understanding, as I had that afternoon with my wife) That's a leading question. Hopefully you will say, "yes phil, yes - you can." :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > I thought this passage from the suttas might be worth a glance. > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > wholesome states. > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > one of > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > speech, right > action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood > springs up. For > one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of > right effort, > right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, > right > concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right > knowledge > springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance > springs up. > > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" > 31578 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Ken, > Swee Boon as you said that cetana does not mean control. I don't think I said that! I said that there is no control over the 3 characteristics of dhammas. But there is control over the arising of kusala or akusala dhammas. And that this control is one of the primary functions of cetana. I do not make a distinction between control and cetana. Regards, Swee Boon 31579 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Ken > But there is control over the arising of kusala or akusala dhammas. What I meant is that there can be deliberate consideration whether to take a skilfull or unskillful action. Regards, Swee Boon 31580 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello Jon, and all. Thanks for this, Jon. In the section on mental objects we can find 3 different verbs/verbal phrases: >knows with understanding [5 hindrances] >thinks: 'Thus is material form...' [5 khandhas] >understands the eye and material forms [6 sense-bases] >knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor [7 >enlightenment factors] >understands: 'This is suffering,' [4 noble truths] For a beginner like myself who hasn't cultivated sati to any degree yet, it's a pointless exercise to make assumptions about what the verbs-phrasal verbs imply. Nevertheless, it's interesting, and as I will soon be reading Soma through the past study group, I'll be doing a lot more of it, and probably reading other members' interpretations. (Surely for someone who does have long experience with satipatthana, the difference between "thinks", "understands" and "knows with understanding" must be self-evident - but maybe not, and as Nina says, it shouldn't be dwelled upon.) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: J: > I just came across some notes on this general area, based on the Soma > Thera translation, I made some time ago now for a post. I thought > you might be interested to see the list I came up with then. > > As Nina says, we need not be too concerned about subtle differences > in terminology (although I agree it's interesting to know, and I > found Suan's explanation helpful). As you can see from the list, > there are many shades of meaning (e.g., 'knows with understanding' > vs. 'understands'). (snip) 31581 From: Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/21/04 6:01:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard (and Swee Boon and Jack) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi,Swee Boon (and Jack) - > Howard: > The statements "There is no self that controls anything" and "There can't be > control" > are not equivalent - the first does not imply the second. Analogously, there > is no self > that sees anything, yet there is seeing; there is no self that tastes > anything yet there > is tasting; and so on, for all the sense domains. > > Jon: > A good point, Howard. > > Just to develop your analogy a little further, while it can truly be said > that "... there is > seeing", it's important to realise that the statement 'there is control' or > 'there is a tree' > would have to be understood as being true in a wholly different way. This > is because > seeing is one of the phenomena that arise in samsara, whereas 'control' and > 'tree' are > not, and so they cannot be said to 'be' or 'occur' in the way that seeing > and the other > dhammas that comprise the aggregates, sense bases and elements do. > > Howard: > There is no absolute control of things, but volition arises and has > influence - and that > does not require a self. > > Jon: > Agreed, but I think that this is such a generalisation (e.g., 'of things') > that we really > need to go further and ask what what exactly does volition influence and by > what > means? Does volition for example influence the immediately following > experiences > through the sense-doors and, if so, how or to what extent? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. Volitional impulses have their influence in a graduated and subtle manner over the course of a huge number of mindstates, and with many such impulses participating. We normally only consciously register the causes and effects involved at a very gross level, and we miss most of what is going on. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > Taking 'control' to mean merely 'influence', what is true as I see it is > that there is no > self who controls anything, but there *is* control. > > Jon: > So you would the statement 'there is control' is correct only if 'control' > means 'a > degree of influence'!! Doesn't this make something of a mockery of the > statement? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not to me, does it. To me it is an important clarification. People run to extremes. Observing the inability to experience whatever one wishes to experience, some say "There is no control," and seeing how the desire to stand, for example, can lead to standing, others say "I control my life and destiny." And, as I see it, the reality is neither of these extremes. There is influence but no control, and the influence, itself, is conditioned, impersonal, subtle, and operates in very specific ways which need to be experienced at finer and finer levels. A fascinating aspect of walking meditation practice, for example, when the attention, concentration,and mindfulness become strong enough, is to experience the volitional impulses leading to forward movement and to turning movement - actually experiencing the arising of intention as an *impersonal* almost-physical impulse that particpates in producing the rupa of "air" (motion). ----------------------------------------------------------- Is it appropriate to regard being able to *exert a degree of influence* over > > > something as being *in control* of it? (Not a very satisfactory form of > control, I'd > suggest ;-)). ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The trouble, Jon, as I see it, is that people go to extremes, and many who are enamored of the no-control aspect of anatta, much of the time subliminally, and even sometimes consciously (if the significance of their belief is blanked out), will carry that enchantment to the point of believing the impossibility or at least inefficacy of kamma (volitional action). ---------------------------------------------------------- > > And anyway, as I said above, for the statement to be meaningful we would > need to > say *over what* there is control. > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31582 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:31am Subject: On Control Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.html "But a well-instructed, disciple of the noble ones -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for people of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- doesn't assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He doesn't assume feeling to be the self... "He doesn't assume perception to be the self... "He doesn't assume fabrications to be the self... "He doesn't assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. "He doesn't run around or circle around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. In one who doesn't assume fabrications to be the self, he discerns fabrications as fabrications. He discerns fabrications arises without a self. He discerns fabrications falls away without a self. Or, in one who doesn't assume volitions to be the self, he discerns volitions as volitions. He discerns volitions arises without a self. He discerns volitions falls away without a self. Or, in one who doesn't assume control to be the self, he discerns control as control. He discerns control arises without a self. He discerns control falls away without a self. In one who assumes fabrications to be the self, he does not discern fabrications as fabrications. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no fabrications'. Or, in one who assumes volitions to be the self, he does not discern volitions as volitions. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no volitions'. Or, in one who assumes control to be the self, he does not discern control as control. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no control'. The statement "there is control but there is no controller" is dependent on a non-assumption. Which? Not assuming control to be the self. The statement "there is no control because there is no self" is dependent on an assumption. Which? Assuming control to be the self. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he inverts the assumption. He wrongly discerns 'there is no control'. Like a dog tied to its leash, he circles around this very assumption. Regards, Swee Boon 31583 From: Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Control Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/21/04 8:33:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Group, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.html ======================== For the second time quite recently, you have shown yourself to be impressively adept at selecting suttas that are on-the-nose relevant! Thank you!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31584 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Control Hi Swee Boon As I say there is no control as a cetasikas, the part on control is not mention in the sutta. You have replace it. Cetana is not control as control is a concept. When we mean control, we mean there is a sense an entity that can will its power so even if we assume control as not self is already clinging to an entity that could will. We dont have deliberate actions over kusala or aksuala. If we have deliberate action, then it will mean Let us be thus, let us not be thus. We can consider dhammas, reflect on that. Only by this, then sati and panna will arise to wise consideration. Sadly this is the only way. This is a very difficult thing to believe and it is a thin red line, between control and understanding conditions. Ken O 31585 From: Larry Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Jon, I thought your comments on my comments were perfectly reasonable but they weren't on the same "train". I was going to New York and you were headed to Los Angeles. I have found that often my explanations just exaggerate misunderstanding so I decided to snip it. Larry 31586 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_( §_3.3) Hi Nina, Thank you for this info! I appreciate it. I wonder if the pali original for the word 'shedding' in Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 Gotami Sutta To Gotami http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-053.html relates to 'pjahati'? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor: > op 20-03-2004 20:00 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > >> > >>> I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said > >>> > >>> > >>> Having shed classifications, > N:Pali has: pahaasii sankha.m. > Pjahati: give up, abandon. Pahaasii: he has abandoned. > san"nkhaa: definition, enumeration. > He has abandoned (or renounced) notions. > My PTS glosses from the Co: The arahat has put away such notions as lusting, > being angry, confused. The Co explains that the fairy mentions the eightfold > Path. She has understood the Middle Path between self-indulgence and > self-torture. > Nina. > > >>> gone beyond conceit, > >>> he has here > >>> cut > >>> through craving > >>> for name > >>> & form: 31587 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:09am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 4. Modesty (§ 4.2.) § 4.2. Sumana: When I was seven & newly gone forth, having conquered with my power the great powerful serpent, I was fetching water for my preceptor from the great lake, Anotatta,[1] when the Teacher saw me & said: "Look, Sariputta, at that one, the young boy coming there, carrying a pot of water, well-centered within, his practices -- inspiring; his bearing -- admirable. He's Anuruddha's novice, mature in his powers, made thoroughbred by a thoroughbred, good by one who is good, tamed by Anuruddha, trained by one whose task is done. He, having reached the highest peace & realized the unshakable, Sumana the novice wants this: 'Don't let anyone know me.'" [Thag VI.10] Note: 1. Anotatta: A fabulous lake located in the Himalayas, famed for the purity of its cool waters. Sumana would have had to use his psychic powers to fetch water from there. [Go back] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty 31588 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:29am Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Philip, Regarding assuming self to be nama and rupa, I would suggest looking into the discourses Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 Samanupassana Sutta Assumptions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-047.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hello all, > [snip] Right understanding - > to the degree that I am capable of it - means understanding myself > and others as rupa and nama. That is so undeniably liberating - > except when neuroses have their day and cloud right understanding. [snip] > > Metta, > Phil 31589 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 4. Modesty (§ 4.2.) Hi all, In passage § 4.2. we can see the quality of modesty in Sumana, who is Ven. Anuruddha's novice. I noticed that the passage § 4.1. is from Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 4.2. > Sumana: > > When I was seven > & newly gone forth, > having conquered with my power > the great powerful serpent, > I was fetching water for my preceptor > from the great lake, Anotatta,[1] > when the Teacher saw me & said: > "Look, Sariputta, at that one, > the young boy coming there, > carrying a pot of water, > well-centered within, > his practices -- inspiring; > his bearing -- admirable. > He's Anuruddha's novice, > mature in his powers, > made thoroughbred by a thoroughbred, > good by one who is good, > tamed by Anuruddha, > trained by one whose task > is done. > > He, having reached the highest peace > & realized the unshakable, > Sumana the novice > wants this: > 'Don't let anyone know me.'" > > [Thag VI.10] > > > Note: > 1. Anotatta: A fabulous lake located in the Himalayas, famed for the > purity of its cool waters. Sumana would have had to use his psychic > powers to fetch water from there. [Go back] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty 31590 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:52am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.1.) § 5.1. "'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all, any old almsfood, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites for curing sickness at all. 'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. [AN VIII.30] Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31591 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:56am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.1.) Hi all, I think that being unhappy is often a result of being discontent, not being content with the material possession one has. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 5.1. > "'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is > discontent.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? > There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at > all, any old almsfood, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites > for curing sickness at all. 'This Dhamma is for one who is content, > not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. And with reference > to this was it said. > > [AN VIII.30] > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > Anuruddha Sutta > To Anuruddha > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31592 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:18pm Subject: char. of rupas 4. There are two ways of explaining the four characteristics, see below. These fragments are taken from the Thai Dhamma Issues. 1. Explanation according to the method of the groups of rúpa. If we take into account that each moment of citta can be subdivided into three infinitesimal moments, each group, kalåpa, of rúpas lasts as long as fiftyone sub-moments of citta. If we compare the duration of rúpa with the duration of the fiftyone sub-moments of citta, the arising moment of rúpa, upacaya rúpa, is reckoned as equal to the first sub-moment of citta. The impermanence of rúpa, aniccatå rúpa, is reckoned as equal to the last sub-moment of citta, the fiftyfirst sub-moment of citta. Continuity, santati rúpa, and decay, jaratå rúpa, are reckoned to come in between these moments, thus, from the second sub-moment until the fiftieth sub-moment of citta. Each group of rúpas must have all four characteristics of rúpa. As is stated in the ³Dhammasangani²(643), ³What is subsistence of rúpa? That which is upacaya rúpa (integration or the arising moment of rúpa) is santati rúpa (subsistence or continuation of rúpa) This is subsistence of rúpa². When there is upacaya rúpa, the origination of rúpa, there must also be santati rúpa, the continuation after the origination, because that rúpa has not fallen away yet. When we take into consideration the characteristics of realities, rúpa is sankhata dhamma, conditioned dhamma, and therefore, it arises and falls away. In between the moment of the arising of rúpa and its falling away, there must be its continuation and decaying until the moment of its falling away. Upacaya, the origination of rúpa and santati, its continuation, are aspects of arising, whereas decay, jaratå, and impermanence, aniccatå, are aspects of its falling away. Each kalåpa, group of rúpas arises due to its own origination factor independently of the other groups of rúpa. Therefore, each group of rúpas must have its arising moment, upacaya. When we take into account the method of explanation according to the groups of rúpa, it cannot be said that the origination moment of rúpa, upacaya, occurs only at the moment of rebirth-consciousness, and that after the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away, the arising moment of the groups of rúpa is santati, continuation. 2. Explanation in a general way or in conventional sense, vohåra : The Atthasåliní, the Commentary to the Dhammasangani, in the section on rúpa, in the explanation of upacaya and santati (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 327) states: ³In the real sense both integration and continuity are synonyms of the production (arising) of rúpa.... ŒThat which is the accumulation of the åyatanas (sense organs) is the arising of rúpa¹. ŒThat which is the arising of rúpa is continuity of rúpa¹ ². This whole passage explains the meaning of the characteristics of upacaya, arising, and santati, continuity, in a wider sense, by way of conventional terms. In the same way the ³Atthasåliní² explains jaratå as decrepitude, such as having broken teeth, greyness of the hair, wrinkled skin. The Tíka of the ³Abhidhammattha Sangaha², Manual of Abhidhamma², the Abhidhammatthavibhåviní states about upacaya: ³Upacaya, accumulation is accumulating; the meaning is Œinitial accumulation¹, since the prefix upa indicates the meaning Œinitial¹ ... Santati, continuity, is continuing; the meaning is Œconnected series¹. Therein, in the period from relinking (patisandhi) until the arising of the decads (groups of ten rúpas) of the eye, etc. the arising of materiality is called accumulation; after that it is called continuity.² [1] In the ³Sacca Sankhepa², and in the ³Abhidhammatta Sangaha², Chapter 6, Classification of Rúpa, we find more examples of explanation of the lakkhana rúpas in a more general or conventional sense. Footnote: 1.After the first arising of the decads of eye, ear, etc. they grow and develop. This is an explanation in conventional terms. ******* Nina. 31593 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:18pm Subject: kalapas, groups. Hi Larry and Howard, Howard wrote: I certainly agree that when there is (just) seeing, there is nothing but visual content, and only afterwards mental operations add to the information. However, what I also think, and this may be what Larry is driving at, is that the visual content is not a homogeneous sameness or blank slate, but consists of a visual pattern that is the basis for the subsequent sa~n~nic and sankharic processing, and, thus, the details (re)cognized after the fact are not created out of whole cloth. N: Difficult subject. I agree that visual content is not a homogeneous sameness or blank slate. Visual pattern, I am not inclined to say pattern, because then there is thinking instead of just seeing without words. I would like to stress developing understanding of those different moments of seeing and thinking, visible object, of all namas and rupas that appear one at a time. Only this leads to penetrating the nature of anatta. Sa~n`naa does its work, but if we think too much about how we can know details, how it all works, it becomes very complicated and distracts from the goal: detachment. Only one dhamma at a time can be understood. Difficult enough for me. Larry wrote: < to Nina and Jon: Huh??? What??? Never mind. ps: Remember, everything you see is edible. Insight into anatta can be found in group dynamics.> N: Larry, I know the subject is very difficult, too difficult to explain in a few E mails. No wonder you think now and then huh?? And I know this does not feel so pleasant. We all need lots of patience and perseverance. Thus, we learn from the Visuddhimagga, reflect, consider again and again. How can we expect to understand dhammas immediately? I remember all those years of wondering and asking about visible object. It is not an image, it is not this colour then that colour, it is not a pattern, but what is it then? The only answer was all the time:*just* what appears through eyesense. Or I asked, how far does visible object extend, same answer. I find that usually we are so absorbed in the image and details of persons and things that we do not consider what seeing is, we just forget. We are more interested in the image. But by discussing knotty points and reflecting it just happens (without doing anything about it) that there can be attention to seeing, considering it. So, I just will add now a few more thoughts on seeing and hearing. I do not get tired of this subject. Visible object or colour arises in a group of rúpas, and the four Great Elements are always included in such a group. Visible object is seen, but the other rupas of that group are not experienced. This can be verified. Can you see hardness or heat? This would be impossible. You mention nutrition with visible object. This is one of the eight inseparables, right. But we speak of edible only when it is morselmade food, as we shall see in the Vis. after the four characteristics of rupa. Under nutrition. When it arises with visible object only visible object is experienced. Each citta experiences only one object. Seeing experiences what is visible, hearing experiences sound. I would like to go more into hearing. When we translate words from Thai into English, it seems an automatic process, but in reality there are many different cittas arising in sense-door processes and mind-door processes. If there were not hearing of just sound, how could we translate anything? It is the same in the case of reading, we actually translate what is seen into meaning. However, there are also moments of seeing of what appears through the eyesense. Seeing is different from paying attention to the shape and form of the letters. Also when we are not reading we see colours and at other moments we pay attention to shape and form, we perceive people and things. Seeing is not focussing on specific colours such as red or blue. When our eyes are open many different colours appear through eyesense and there is no need to enumerate or define all these colours, how could we do that. They just appear through the eyesense (we do not count them or define them) and after that we pay attention to the shape and form of things and we know that this is a person and that an animal or tree. Thus, there are many different moments of citta, but now we have a notion of I who sees persons and things, who hears people speaking. Understanding that there are many different dhammas appearing through the six doors, one at a time, is a condition for the arising of direct awareness and understanding. This is the sure way leading to the penetration of anatta. Keep courage and good cheer! Nina. 31594 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:20pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Paticcasamupada2 Dear Group, A further post on this topic from Robert Kirkpatrick. His explanation of the revolving of paticcasamupadda within a single conscious moment is clear and interesting. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: --- Dear Christine and all, From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind) We may think of death as aberrant and prefer not to think about it. However, the Buddha explained that because of birth then decay and death, sorrow, lamentation and pain all arise. And is this not the truth; we are born into this strange world, and live our short or long, pleasant or painful lives and then die. For every moment that arises intricate conditions are needed. In the sutta above we read "On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises". This aspect of the Paticcasamuppada is happening now while looking at the computer screen but we tend to take it for granted. Yet the eye-base (cakkhupasada) is a special type of matter conditioned by kamma of the past. If that kamma should cease or be obstructed then this type of matter cannot arise and thus there would be no seeing. Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result of good kamma. If the words are properly contemplated now we make new good kamma - and this is another link, sankhara, in the wheel of Paticcasamuppada. These links are evanescent and happening so fast: The Sammohavinodani (by Buddhaghosa- translated as The Dispeller of Delusion, Pali Text society)p244 "and now, because this structure of conditions exists not only in a plurality of consciousnesses but also in a single consciousness, he said avijjapaccaya sankharo (with ignorance as condition, a formation arises) and so on thus setting forth the shedule in order to teach, as to its various aspects, the structure of conditions of a single conscious moment"endquote. There are about 19 pages explaining how the whole paticcasamupada can be seen in such a short time. Knowing more about these fragile moments, I feel that it is a little miracle each time I wake up in the morning, or remember someone's name or experience colour or sound. It seems certain, and not so far away, that one day this life must cease. Sadness too seems very normal, another conditioned dhamma, that must arise because of attachment. Perhaps, as good Buddhists, knowing that sorrow and attachment are akusala (unwholesome), we become concerned to stop aversion, including sorrow. And it is true that if there is understanding at any link of the wheel - for example, if seeing is known as seeing then attachment and sorrow cannot arise. However, all of us have accumulated much attachment over such a long time that it must be expected that it occurs sometimes. Even Anathapindika , a leading lay disiple and sotapanna, had sorrow. Book 1, 13 of the Dhammapada-athakatha (trans. Burlingame PTS edition p.242.)In this the youngest daughter of Anathapindika, Sumana died. She was already a sakagami but she had been unable to find a husband. She was gradually overwhemled with disapointment over this and refusing to eat [or unable to eat] she lay in her bed, ill. While Anathapindika was at her bed she called him "younger brother" and then died. Anathapindika (sotapanna) went to the Buddha: "Although the treasurer had obtained the Fruit of conversion he was unable to bear the grief that arose within him. Accordingly when he funeral rites over his daughters body he went weeping to the teacher. Said the teacher 'householder how is it that you come to me sad and sorrowful, with tears in your eyes weeping?'" Anathapindika explained that what worried him most of all was that his dughter "died raving incoherently" [called him 'younger brother']. The Buddha explained that this was because she was already sakadagami while anathapindika was sotapanna and that she had been reborn in a deva world. Both Sumana and Anathapindika had attained stages of enlightenment and had thus penetrated the Paticcasamuppada to the degree that they had completely eliminated the three types of upadana (clinging) based on wrongview. However, they hadn't yet eradicted the sensuous clinging and so attachment and sorrow kept arising. It is also interesting that a sotapanna did not know that his own daughter was already enlightened - and even believed that she temporarily deranged. So hard is it to know who is truly wise: If we judge people from their behaviour we can say 'he looks always calm' But looks can be deceiving. Often we are not even aware of our own defilements and mistake subtle clinging for calmness. Then again sometimes someone may be agitated and yet still be accumulating some wisdom. Cittas (mindstates) are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna(wisdom) and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality, some aspect of Paticcasamupada. robert In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > > > I liked your reminder that even though someone is not yet a > > Sotapanna, ignorance may be slowly being 'worn through' and > > attenuated. Sometimes one can feel discouraged and unsure, > sometimes > > one can feel no 'progress' is being made, > --- End forwarded message --- 31595 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:12pm Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, > Cetana is not control as control is a concept. > When we mean control, we mean there is a sense an entity > that can will its power ... How sure are you that this sense is a concept? Or is it a reality? Regards, Swee Boon 31596 From: Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Vism.XIV 68 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 68. 22. 'Ageing' has the characteristic of maturing (ripening) material instances. Its function is to lead on towards [their termination]. It is manifested as the loss of newness without the loss of individual essence, like oldness in paddy. Its proximate cause is matter that is maturing (ripening). This is said with reference to the kind of ageing that is evident through seeing alteration in teeth, etc., as their brokenness, and so on (cf. Dhs. 644). But that of immaterial states, which has no such [visible] alteration, is called hidden ageing. And that in earth, water, rocks, the moon, the sun, etc., is called incessant ageing. [450] 31597 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Victor and Philip (and all), I seem to have slunk back into `lurking' mode -- which is easy to do when there are so many excellent posts to read. However, I feel compelled to interject: Philip has reminded us; `everything we mistake for self is just nama and rupa.' Victor has corrected him (?!) by saying; `nama and rupa should be seen as not self.' I am worried that Philip will not realise what Victor means by this. Similar misunderstandings have happened many times before, resulting in weeks (sometimes months) of frustrating discussion from which no agreement has been reached. Victor, please make clear that you are asserting there IS a self – a self that is neither nama nor rupa. Then, discussion can proceed productively with all parties fully informed. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Philip, > > Regarding assuming self to be nama and rupa, I would suggest looking > into the discourses > 31598 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:07pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hello Ken, Victor and all. Thank you for your concern, Ken. I am taking everything with a grain of salt these days, staying open to all views, or trying to, to avoid my past error of being convinced that walking on only one side of the sidewalk is Right. I found this in the "Assumptions" sutta that Victor was kind enough to link me to. "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." I think I can say - with "I" used as always for convenience - that I have at least come to enough understanding to be able to put myself in with the "well-instructed disciple" above. A beginner's right understanding is well described here. I have not learned enough about or reflected enough in the light of abhidhamma to be able to join in the kind of discussion which will probably ensue from Victor's pst, but the basic right understanding referred to above is gradually rising, and I am very grateful to this group for that. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor and Philip (and all), > > I seem to have slunk back into `lurking' mode -- which is easy to do > when there are so many excellent posts to read. However, I feel > compelled to interject: > > Philip has reminded us; `everything we mistake for self is just nama > and rupa.' > > Victor has corrected him (?!) by saying; `nama and rupa should be > seen as not self.' > > I am worried that Philip will not realise what Victor means by > this. Similar misunderstandings have happened many times before, > resulting in weeks (sometimes months) of frustrating discussion from > which no agreement has been reached. > > Victor, please make clear that you are asserting there IS a self ?E a > self that is neither nama nor rupa. Then, discussion can proceed > productively with all parties fully informed. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Philip, > > > > Regarding assuming self to be nama and rupa, I would suggest > looking > > into the discourses > > 31599 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:21pm Subject: Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hello Christine, and all. I am deeply grateful for your long and throughtful response to my post, Christine, which was written in the midst of some great anxiety. I'm glad I wasn't able to retract it! I have printed out your response and it will be placed along with several others in a folder for reading and rereading - starting tonight in the bath. Thank you, my dhamma friend, and all my dhamma friends here. I feel so grateful not only to have found the Buddha's teaching, but so many friends here and in other groups who guide me and encourage me towards deeper understanding and liberation from some forms of unnecessary suffering. I will express that gratitude in some very excellent teaching today. (I define excellence as being fully present for the students rather than letting my mind wander to thoughts of dinner etc - now I know that being present for others arises later in the day as a result of thoughtful reflection on dhamma with friends like you.) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip, > > After making great promises, my computer had a hissy-fit and deleted > a number of things, including the first draft of my post to you. So, > I start again - but you know how one can't quite recapture the > silken turn of phrase and the precise elucidation of a point or .... > :-) :-) > > There are presently 407 members on this list - most of them are > ordinary lay people struggling with just the issues you raise. Some > have loving partners with an equal interest in the Teachings, some > are unhappy in relationships, some have children they love but who > don't necessarily bring happiness, some don't have children and had > wanted to have them, some are healthy, some are quite ill, some are > young, some are elderly, some are wealthy, some comfortably off, and > some worried sick about how to pay bills. And some poor unfortunates > have to live alone with a self-centred Great Dane, whose only > interest in the Dhamma is listening to the BrahmaVihara chant on > Vipassana.com (after dinner please). > Generally, life in Samsara is dukkha. > Remember the traditional definition of Suffering - "Birth is dukkha, > aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & > despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; > separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is > dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." (snip)