31800 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:36pm Subject: Mudita and judging others' joy Hello all, As I've said before I'm very interested in the brahma-viharas. The one that I've consistently had the most trouble understanding and practicing correctly (I think) is mudita - sympathetic joy. Here's a passage on mudita from Nina's book "Cetasikas" : N: "Sympathetic joy can be developed in daily life. There are opportunities for its development when we see someone else's good fortune. if we see the disadvantages of jealousy there are conditions for being appreciative when we see that someone is in good health, has success in life and receives honour and praise." P: My confusion lies in the fact that since "honour and praise" and "success in life" often come through ways that don't reflect right understanding, how can we avoid exercising judgement? I wonder if panna can play a role in whether mudita or karuna arises. N: "If we tend to be jealous it is difficult to cultivate sympathetic joy, since jealousy has been accumulated there are conditions for its arising when we see that someone else receives praise or other pleasant objects. it is useful to realize such moments of jealousy, even when they are not coarse but more subtle. If right understanding is being developed we will see that someone else's success does not belong to a "person", that it is only vipaka which is conditioned by kamma, Thus, jealousy is in fact groundless. When right understanding sees that there are no people, no things which exist, only nama and rupa which arise and fall away, there will gradually be less conditions for jealousy." P: Perhaps I've found my answer here. Perhaps it is best to be as uncritical as possible of others' success, in the right understanding that if it does indeed come from wrong understanding, there is no need for "me" to be concerned about whether to feel sympathetic joy or compassion - vipaka will work out in the way it is being conditioned by khamma. N: "Envy is one of the "lower fetters" (samyojanas) which are eradicated by the sotapanna. When there is no more jealousy there are more conditions for sympathetic joy, it can gradually become one's nature. The sotapanna is the true friend who sympathizes and is "sound at heart on four grounds" " P: But can't the true friend aspire to provide correction of wrong view when she or he understands it to be arising in the other? How can we provide "straightening of view" (I forget the Pali term) without exercising some kind of judgement of others' joy? And how can we know whether that need to straighten another's view come from envy or from right understanding? As for straightening other's views I think it is undeniably an important part of a fruitful practice of the Buddha's teaching. I think of the way Sarah changed my practice, and my life, with a short post pointing out some shortcomings in the way I was practicing equanimity to protect myself from outbursts of anger. If she had been content to let me go my own merry way, I wouldn't have turned the corner I did - and I know there will be many, many more occasions where a good dhamma friend points out wrong understanding on my part even when I am expressing joy about some aspect of my practice and claiming benefits from it. Have any of you had trouble understanding how mudita can arise without judgement? Metta, Phil 31801 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why panati cannot be ayatana Dear Ken O, Thank you very much. Just a remark about pa~n~natti: it can only be 1, not 2 or 3. See Guide to Conditional Relations, U Narada. In the Patthana mainly paramattha dhammas are dealt with, and pa~n~natti is just mentioned as arammana-paccaya. Nina. op 28-03-2004 14:27 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Panati can be object and are paccaya and I could only remember three > types. Even though they are not defilements themselves, they can > cause or paccaya defilements (roots etc) to arise. > 1. arammana-paccaya > 2. arammanadhipati-paccaya > 3. arammanupanissaya-paccaya 31802 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why panati cannot be ayatana Hi Nina Thanks for this remark, because I really do not know about this. Another book to buy - Conditional relations Ken O --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken O, > Thank you very much. Just a remark about pa~n~natti: > it can only be 1, not 2 or 3. See Guide to Conditional Relations, U > Narada. > In the Patthana mainly paramattha dhammas are dealt with, and > pa~n~natti is > just mentioned as arammana-paccaya. > Nina. > op 28-03-2004 14:27 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > > Panati can be object and are paccaya and I could only remember > three > > types. Even though they are not defilements themselves, they can > > cause or paccaya defilements (roots etc) to arise. > > 1. arammana-paccaya > > 2. arammanadhipati-paccaya > > 3. arammanupanissaya-paccaya 31803 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Nina or Sarah If you have time could you tell me more about Pure Abode and why it is a rupa plane even though it is always consider the same level as in immaterial planes. Ken O 31804 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, S: I appreciate your comments very much - they condition a lot of helpful reflection for me. .... --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > Sarah, > > Thanks. I think I understand your position now. Is this a good analogy? > If I > take you to a jazz concert, I might explain the "rules" of jazz, > assuming you > knew little about jazz. You would then react to jazz differently in the > future. You wouldn't have to had done anything but your preceptions > would change. .... S: I think this is a very good analogy. In just the same way, how we read a sutta before we had considered much about the Buddha’s teachings was different to how it is now with a little more consideration and understanding. with greater insight, it will be very different again. For example, the more understanding there is about namas and rupas, the less we’ll be inclinded to think in terms of kinds of people, guests, robbers and physical surroundings in a conventional sense when we read about these and the more inclined we’ll be to reflect on changing cittas (kinds of consciousness),sense objects, kilesa (defilements) and inner qualities whilst reading the various metaphors and descriptions for these. ..... J: > I agree with you that being attached to striving or to anything > including > formal meditation is dangerous. There is the same danger, I think, in > being > attached to avoiding formal meditation and to studying the suttas. ..... S: Yes, the most dangerous attachment, as we read in the texts, is that of wrong view which expresses itself in rite and ritual (silabbata paraamaasa)which there has been some recent discussion about, so I’d like to add a couple of quotes. This is the kind of attachment which contains the belief that purification comes about by following a particular practice or activity. ***** “Likewise it [clinging (upaadaana)] clings to rites and rituals, thus it is rites and rituals clinging; also it is rites and rituals and it is clinging, thus it is rites and rituals clinging. For ox-asceticism, ox vows and so on (see M i 387f) are themselves kinds of clinging, too, because of the belief that purification comes about thus. Likewise, they theorise by means of that, thus it is theory; they cling by means of that, thus it is clinging. What do they theorise about, or to what do they cling? Self. the clinging to theories about self is self-theory clinging. Or, by means of that they cling to a self that is a mere theory about self; thus it is self-theory clinging.” (Sammohavinodanii, transl as Dispeller, 845). ***** S: In other words, whilst attachment is very common, when it is accompanied by wrong views, views that any activity -- including sutta study or avoidance of any other activity -- will by itself lead to any purification, the danger of following on the wrong track increases. Whilst we may all laugh at the idea of having any ox vows, I believe that wrong views and silabbata paraamaasa are very insidious and likely to sneak in when least expected, such as during our ‘practice’ whether that be sitting in formal meditation or reading a sutta as you suggest. Only a sotapanna no longer clings to wrong views including silabbata paraamaasa, by understanding impermanence and the noble truth of suffering inherent in all the khandhas: ***** “One who sees consciousness as impermanent fully understands nutriment consisting of consciousness, he abandons the perversion of [perceiving] permanence in the impermanent, he crosses the flood of ignorance, he is loosed from the bond of ignorance, he becomes canker-free in respect of the canker of ignorance, he breaks the bodily tie of holding to rites and rituals. He does not cling by the clinging to views. “Since blessings thus will come from seeing them as murderers etcetera, Therefore the wise should see the aggregates as murderers etcetera.” (Dispeller, 159) ..... J:<...> > Here is another parallel. I have run several marathons (26.2 miles). > Training > involves getting up very early in the morning and running for 1-2 hours. > This > is day after day in all kinds of weather. When I started the intensive > training leading up to a race, I would have to force myself to get out > the door. > But, after a couple weeks, I just did it. No will power was involved. > > There might have been a point in your mental development when you were > attached to studying the suttas. Now, it probably is automatic. .... S: I can relate to your training. Sometimes I join intensive yoga courses and have to also get up very early every morning and ‘push’ myself through a tough Astanga practice (with lots of breathing work;-)). I’m not sure, however, how far we can take these analogies. Any wise consideration or reflection or insight now would not be as a result of the many moments of past attachment or wrong view, but as a result of accumulated wise reflection and so on *in spite of* those views. It is true, however, as you suggest, that conditions are extraordinarily complicated and in effect, anything can be a supporting condition for any presently arising dhamma. To give a very simple example, anger now could be a supporting condition for wisdom by being the object of that wisdom. This would not mean, however, that we’d encourage anyone in a practice of anger in order that wisdom might develop. That would definitely be wrong practice. Jack, I’d like to also comment that though it might seem that I and others here read and intellectualise a lot, I don’t really see it that way at all. Neither Jon or I, for example, have ever read dhamma texts for more than half an hour or hour at a stretch. We’ve always been too busy with work, household affairs, exercise or simply having ordinary fun. For example, over the weekend, we both worked, went to yoga classes, walked up the Peak, and spent a fair amount of time at the Rugby Sevens (which England won for the third year in a row!!). During these activities, I didn’t think about reading any texts, but when we had a little free time at home in between ordinary chores, I’d naturally read messages on the list, look up references or read part of a sutta -- sometimes just a few lines -- and reflect further. It’s certainly never because I feel that this is what has to be done, but the value in the reflecting and in any moments of understanding at anytime during any of those other activities becomes more and more apparent, I think, leading to more confidence and reflection naturally and without any rules. I also enjoy sharing any considerations with others here as well. Hope to hear more of your reflections too. Metta, Sarah ====== 31805 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Dear Htoo (& Ken O), --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for your explanation and for your precious time. Your post is > clear. But one question. Why can pannatta not be the object of > mahasatipatthana? .... S: Thanks, Htoo, this is a very important question. We have to consider what satipatthana is and what the purpose of developing it is. Simply put, it is the development of the path which penetrates the 4 Noble Truths step by step, initially by clearly comprehending namas and rupas. From the Tiika to the Satipatthana Sutta we read: “Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word ‘way’? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness.” Your question is why can’t pa~n~natti be objects of satipatthana? The reason is that in an ultimate sense, pa~n~natti don’t exist, they are merely ‘imagined’ or conceptualised and therefore the knowing about pa~n~natti, however wise the knowing may be, merely leads to more conceptualising and never to the direct comprehending of realities directly appearing at this very moment. This is why the development of samatha (which usually has concept as object), however much calmness and and other wholesome qualities developed, cannot lead to insights or vipassana which can eventually eradicate kilesa (defilements). Understanding the truths has to begin with understanding the truth, however little that may be, at this very moment when seeing, visible object, feeling, thinking or other paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) appear and can be the objects of satipatthana. This is quite different from reflection about the ‘concept’ of that reality or any other. I think that only by clearly understanding this distinction and seeing the importance of knowing paramattha dhammas (realities) directly can the path really begin. This is why I and others go to some lengths to clarify comments about the ayatanas, dhatus, khandhas or objects of satipatthana as only referring to these realities. Please let me know if this isn’t clear or if there’s anything to discuss further. I’m also repeating the quote Ken O just gave from the Vibhanga at the end of the post on the definition of dhammayatana. Metta, Sarah Ken O: >Lets take a look at why panati cannot be ayatana “According to The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga), 167. Therein what is ideational base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of preception, agregate of mental concomitants and that invisible non-impingment material quality included in the ideational base; the unconditional element (i.e. Nibbana).” ========================================== 31806 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Suan & All, I’m linking in your earlier message with section 357 as well, because I think it’s useful and I’m giving the translation for this part too. ..... Suan:> The word "ANUPASSII" as in "Kaayaanupassii" occurs many times in the Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. Anupassii, when meaning a wise observer, is one who has "Anupassanaa". When we have the term "Anupassanaa", this amounts to having the term "Vipassanaa" as well. Pali quote coming! Both the terms "anupassanaa" and "vipassanaa" in their turn are merely the synonyms of the term "paññaa". Please view the following Pali quote from Section 357, Vibha~nga, the second Abhidhamma Pi.taka text. This quote defines the term "Anupassii" by simple asking "What is anupassanaa (katamaa anupassanaa)?" "Vibha~nge pana anupassiiti tattha "katamaa anupassanaa? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa VIPASSANAA sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaa paasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaa ratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi, ayam vuccati anupassanaa." Did you see the term "vipassanaa" in capital letters? Please also check other synonyms such as Sammaadi.t.thi (the Right View) as the last one.< **** Sarah: Translation given in PTS Book of Analysis: “357. ‘Contemplating [anupassiiti]’ means: Therein what is contemplation [anupassanaa]? that which is wisdom [paññaa], understanding [pajaananaa], :[see par 525]: absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called contemplation. Of this contemplation he is possessed, well possessed, attained, well attained, endowed, well endowed, furnished. Therefore this is called ‘contemplating’.” ***** Suan:>I notice that she translated Vipassanaa as intuition and sampajaññam as intelligence. .... S: Yes, not the best and neither is awareness below for sampaja~n~na, which clearly is a synonym for pa~n~naa (insight or clear comprehension*). ..... Suan: The following is Pali passage from Section 525, Vibha~nga. 525. "Sampajaano"ti tattha katamam sampajaññam? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuuriimedhaa pari.naayikaa vipassanaa sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaapaasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaaratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadiµµhi– idam vuccati "sampajaññam". Iti imaaya ca satiyaa iminaa ca sampajaññena upeto hoti …pe… samannaagato. Evam bhikkhu sato sampajaano abhikkamati, sato sampajaano pa.tikkamati, sato sampajaano aaloketi, sato sampajaano viloketi, sato sampajaano samiñjeti, sato sampajaano pasaareti, sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, sa~nghaa.tipattaciivaradhaara.ne sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, asite piite khaayite saayite sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, uccaarapassaavakamme sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, gate .thite nisinne sutte jaagarite bhaasite tu.nhiibhaave sampajaanakaarii hoti.< ***** Sarah: Translation from ‘Book of Analysis’: “525: ‘Aware’[Sampajaano] means: Therein what is awareness [sampajaññam]? that which is wisdom [paññaa], understanding, investigation, research, truth investigation, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, analysis, consideration, breadth, sagacity, guidance, insight, awareness, goad, wisdom, controlling faculty of wisdom, power of wisdom, sword of wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, splendour of wisdom, jewel of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called awareness. Thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he is possessed, :see para 357: furnished. Thus a bhikkhu mindful and aware approaches; mindful and aware he departs; mindful and aware he looks ahead; mindful and aware he looks around; mindful and aware he bends; mindful and aware he stretches; mindful he acts with awareness; in bearing the outer robe, the alms-bowl and the under robe, mindful he acts with awareness; in eating, in drinking, in chewing, in tasting, mindful he acts with awareness; in walking, in standing, in sitting, in sleeping, in waking, in talking, in being silent, he acts with awareness.” ***** Suan: If you could add English translation, it would be very useful for the readers who want to practice Sampajaññam meditation. .... Sarah: So we see that as you’ve been stressing, I think, sati sampaja~n~na (mindfulness and clear comprehension) whether discussed in the suttas or the Abhidhamma, whether referred to as satipatthana, vipassana, anupassanaa or pa~n~na, refers to the development of insight, accompanied by all the eightfold path factors arising at any time. Good work and everyone gets a good taste of Abhidhamma from the texts;-) Metta, Sarah p.s What do you have for section 550? ====================================== *Comy to Satipatthana Sutta, Soma transl: “Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. [Tika] "Clearly comprehending" = Discerning rightly, entirely andequally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. [T] "Rightly" = Correctly [aviparitam]. [T] "Entirely" = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. [T] "Equally" = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya].” Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare."[17] [T] "Necessary in all circumstances" = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable. Or, that by the help of which the other proper Factors of Enlightenment [bojjhanga] are capable of being developed, is "necessary in all circumstances." Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulnes. =========== 31807 From: sarahdhhk Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:57pm Subject: Re: Gradual Training Hi Ken O & Howard, You were having a delightful discussion on some of the lines in MN70. Naturally we read them (or even translate them) according to our understanding of the meaning;-) I've been meaning to join in. ..... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Continuing with the earlier sutta on MN 70 > < practise, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] > visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays > respect to im, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; > having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; he examines the meaning of > the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he > gains a reflective acceptance of the teachings; when he has gained a > reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Aha! He does, does he? Well, keen interest, enthousiasm, and, yes, > even hope and desire - those causes of suffering - can lead to > useful volition. After all, we start where we are. > Howard > Hmm, he applies it. Whoops, there's volition! (Maybe 'kamma' > > would sound better to some ears.) > > ------------------------------------------------- .... S: ;-) `Chando jaayati, chandajaato ussahati', wholesome chanda arises as conditioned by the reflections on the teachings. ..... > k: Hmm, I think I have said there is very thin line in distinguishing > being conditioned by considering dhamma and one that is being > condition by a deliberate action. When he applies his will, it is > conditioned by his zeal which is condition by all the way to hearing > of dhamma. It is clear that he does not purposedly will, he applied > it because of considering of dhamma (conditions condition) .... S: Well said, Ken O. The thin line between silabata paraamaasa and chanda arising naturally with pa~n~naa. .... > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Hmm, he scrutinizes. That must take some will and effort. > > (Oh, yes, of course - it *says* that he strives. Oh my, it > actually says that he strives *resolutely*!) > > ----------------------------------------------- .... S: `ussahitvaa tuleti, tulayitvaa' he examines what is experienced with pa~n~naa again. Or we can say, panna examines the dhammas directly. .... > k: When one scrutinizes do one need to purposedly go and > scrutinizes. Have you ever suddenly recall an idea and scrutinize it > at the moment. After scrutinzes and known it is beneficial, > confidence of the dhamma will built up, and that confidence will > condition striving and *resolutely* ;-). .... S: `padahati, pahitatto...' strives, takes up, confronts the ultimate truth. Or again, pa~n~naa directly knows the truth. We had the same word for penetrating the truth in the Vism I think. `....and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom'* * BB note: "MA: with the mental body he realises Nibbana, the ultimate truth, and he penetrates it with the wisdom pertaining to the supramundane path." As you say, Ken O, no self or will to actively have zeal or strive, but panna by considering, examining, scrutinising, developing and realising the truths will naturally and inevitably realise nibbana directly. Howard, I appreciated your good-humoured questioning of Ken O's quote and comments;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31808 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Hi All Time for me to work again 62 Herein, it might be [asked]: How can it be known that these formations have ignorance as their condition? -- By the fact that they exist when ignorance exist. For when unknowing -- in other words, ignorance – of suffering, etc, is unabandoned in a man, owing firstly to his unknowing about suffering and about the past, etc, then he believes the suffering of the round of rebirths to be pleasant and he embarks upon the three kinds of formation which are the cause of that very suffering. Owing to his unknowing about suffering's origin he embarks upon formation, that subordinated to craving, are actually the cause of suffering, imagining them to be the cause of pleasure. And owing to his unknowing about cessation and the path, he misperceives the cessation of suffering to be in some particular destiny [such as Brahma world] that is not in fact cessation; he misconceives the path to cessation, believing it to consist in sacrifices, mortifications for immortality, etc, which are not in fact the path to cessation; and so while aspiring to the cessation of suffering, he embarks upon the three kinds of formations in the form of sacrifices, mortification for immortality and so on. 63 Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four truths in particular prevents him from recognizing as suffering the kind of suffering called the fruit of merit, which is fraught with the many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death and so he embarks upon the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental formations, in order to attain that [kind of suffering], like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a cliff. Also not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually breeds great distress owing to the suffering in its change and that it gives little satisfaction, he embarks upon the formation of merit of the kinds already stated, which is the condition for that very [suffering in change], like a moth that falls into a lamp's flame, and like the man who wants the drop of honey and licks the honey-smeared knife edge. Also not seeing the danger in indulgence of sense desires, etc with its results, [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and overcome by defilements, he embarks upon the formation of demerit that occurs in the three doors [of kamma], like a child who plays with filth, and like a man who wants to die and eats poison. Also, unaware of the suffering due to formations and the suffering-in-change [inherent] in kamma results in the immaterial sphere, owing to the perversions of [wrongly perceiving them as] eternal etc, he embarks upon the formation of the imperturbable which is a mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city. 64 So formations exist only when ignorance exists, not when it does not; and that is how it can be known that these formations have ignorance as their condition. This is said too: “Not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance, he forms the formation of merit, forms the formation of demerit, forms the formation of the imperturbable. As soon as bhikkhu's ignorance is abandoned and clear vision arisen, bhikkhus, with the fading of away of ignorance and the arising of clear vision he does not form even formations of merit' [cf. S.ii.82) Ken O 31809 From: Eznir Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 0:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Sukin, Please find my comments online below. Sorry for the length of the post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Dear Eznir, > > Thanks for your very gentle and considerate post. :-) > > You said: > > The story about using the raft to cross the stream and leaving it > > behind as one proceeds on his way.... has no meaning if not > > understood in this context of 'control' or 'aiming for results'. > > Or should we say, that the real meaning would be understood, only > when we have reached that stage of development. ;-) ************************************** eznir: Yes, of course! ******************************** > > > Of course there is no 'self' who does the controlling or who aims > for > > results, but there comes a stage, as things proceed, when this > need > > to 'control' or 'aim for results'(that *this*) becomes > meaningless! > > At which time one leaves them behind, like the raft, and proceeds > on > > his way. > > What would be the raft for one who is developing intellectual > understanding of the Buddha's teachings? ******************************************* eznir: I suppose he has not even got onto the raft, let alone rowing upstream towards Nibbana! :-)) I suppose he is still fabricating the raft, the 37 enlightenment factors in particular. What is Intellectual Understanding anyway? I think it is Constructive Thinking, whether it be the Buddha's Teaching or even crossing a busy road. The cluster of thoughts(that constitute intellectual understanding) that precede an act must be just right if it is to bear fruit. If not one would meet with an accident(as in the case of crossing the road). Before dressing up, one could imagine how perfectly dressed one could be. But when dressing up there is a proper sequence to follow. One cannot wear the outer garments before wearing the inner ones. Nor can one take a face wash with all the make-up done. The same with Lord Buddha's Teachings, one may have a perfect intellectual grasp of the Teachings, but how to get there, or rather, how to condition ones mind, from the Puthujjana's end is why we practice. ****************************************************** > > > If one has developed ones eyesight to even see the microbes > swimming > > in ones blood stream, why take a blood sample and use a microscope > to > > see them! One can now do a way with those paraphernalia. Just like > > that! > > The problem is when we so called, "use a microscope", we don't > notice that our eyes have become watery due to eagerness, and so > what we see is distorted. Though we may manage to get our theory > right, we still have to watch out for Tanha. ************************************************** eznir: This is where practice comes in, after sila having conditioned the mind to be in the present moment. Talking of Tanha, even now, in my posts, I see conceit mocking at me at times! But perhaps, if one merely state the Dhamma and do not extol nor disparage, I suppose one is doing the right thing. :-)) ****************************************************** > > Take a puthujjana and an arahant. They too are two ends of the > same > > stick. And a sekha stands in-between! Looking at a sekha from the > > puthujjana's end of the `stick' he is not an arahant as he still > has > > things to do. Looking from the arahant's end he is not a > puthujjana > > because he has overcome three of the ten fetters that define a > > puthujjana. > > > > Now where do *we* stand on this `stick'? It is from this > standpoint > > of view that *we* should traverse(application of the 4 noble > truths) > > towards the arahant's end of the stick. It is all well that *we* > > should have a `perfect' view of what the Dhamma is, but if that is > > not where *we* stand, then *we* should know how to get there. > > Yes, continue to read, listen and ponder, not to be > accumulating `information', but to understand. ***************************************************** eznir: Yes, accumulation of information by itself, is a mere collection of ideas. It only makes things more difficult for the mind to see the truth. Since it now has more `ideas' to sift through to realize the junk from reality. What we read confronts us in privacy. ********************************************* > But even if we do > this, a great many other conditions will determine if in fact there > will be any understanding. And then, when this theoretical level > will condition the practice level and how much of that will > ultimately condition realization. ********************************************** eznir: This is where reflective acceptance of the Teachings is necessary to condition the mind. Then the junk can be discarded. One then builds up a thought structure that is closely knitted, the incompatible thoughts having been abandoned. This mesh of dhamma when seen(in the present moment) reveals Paticcasamuppada, the structure of existence, the dependent condition of everything in every other thing. ********************************** > > > Intention is action. It is this right intention accompanied with > > right view that gets one to the goal. > > All the cetasikas accompanying mundane insight will be sobhana, so > in a way, you could say that the intention will also be `right'. > However, as I understand it, `Intention' does not play any major > role with regard to this. The little that I have read, I think the > Buddha stressed on Panna, Sati, Concentration and Effort. If > anything, I think what determines if a kusala `action' will be > completed, is "effort", and this may be why the Buddha stressed > quite a bit about this factor. But what is the quality of effort > depending on? The other > path factors or cetasikas. > > Let me give you a personal example. Some time ago, I heard on tape, > K. Sujin giving the example of two people having the desire > to `give'. In one person there is desire to give, but he does not, > because there is lack of effort to do it promptly. The second one > does, immediately. Soon after I was confronted with a situation > where I hesitated to give, not because I didn't have feelings of > dana, but it required a little work. At that moment I remembered > what K. Sujin said, I saw that the only thing that was holding me > back was lack of effort. At this point, effort was aroused, and I > gave. The `intention' was more or less the same, but when I gave, I > believe panna saw thina and mida, and effort was aroused. ******************************************* eznir: I think Intention plays a major role with regard to anything for that matter. Which is why the Lord Buddha said intention is kamma. And kamma is what we all have to stop `making' if we are to realize Nibbana, which an Ariyasavaka does when he realizes Arahatship. And therefore the actions of an Arahat has no kammic effect. Kamma is something that we are perpetually engaged with, if not we cannot speak of an existence. Intention and Kamma are two sides of the same coin, which is why intention is kamma. With respect to taking effect there are 4 types of kamma, (1)immediately effective (2) subsequently effective (3)indefinitely effective (4)defunct. In your example, the fact that you hesitated to give, your intention was not immediately effective. Nevertheless you remembered the tape of K. Sujin which conditioned your mind to give subsequently. Intention in this way ripens into action at a later time(hence subsequently effective). This intention, at the time the action of giving was committed, is the `matured intention' of the one you made when you hesitated to give. The intention at the moment when you hesitated to give must have been accompanied with thoughts of lobha. But thoughts of dana got the upper hand when you remembered the tape by K. Sujin. In this way, at all times, we live in an environment of thoughts. Which thought will materialize into action, depends on which thought catches your attention at the moment. The resulting action is bodily, verbal or mental, though not isolated but intricately connected to each other. The environment of thoughts we live in a given moment, though seemingly random, is in some way connected to the situation at hand. Like in this example(the-situation-to-give) was obstructed with lobha thoughts(not-to-give) and the dana thoughts(to-give) was prompted by what you heard formerly of K. Sujin(merit-of-giving). These thoughts are in the foreground that occupies our mind(which we conventionally call the present moment) against a background of thoughts normally resulting from our five senses, such as ambient noise, visuals, body balance etc. Our need to think is always a means to an end. Therefore the seemingly random thinking, we call mental activity, is with intention. And their time of maturity depends on various other factors. ********************************** > > > And as *we* traverse in that > > direction *we* should shed all the erroneous thoughts that *we* > > harboured so far(cessation of `little' dukkhas) that contributed > to > > the wrong understanding of the Dhamma. And how does one know the > > folly of our thoughts? By our own experience of the Dhamma, and > > definitely not by referencing to external sources! > > True. But what foundation is experiential knowledge based upon? > Intellectual knowledge, isn't it? Without a firm intellectual > knowledge to condition practice and developing understanding through > increased familiarity of the characteristic of dhammas, what does it > mean to learn and grow in wisdom? If our present level is such that > whatever reflection that is done, does not escape any limited and > distorted way that we might interpret experiences, is it not wise to > reference the external source, namely the Texts? ************************************************** eznir: Intellectual knowledge by itself does not condition practice. If that were true then those professors and scholars in Buddhism would have realized the Dhamma. I think intention is what conditions the mind that conditions the practice. Through practice one develops understanding. Practice is mere repetition of actions that are conducive to Nibbana. When practice is perfect ones actions become habitual. I said, intentions condition the mind. Take the 5 precepts for instance. When one is about to break a precept, the thought that one is under oath crops up. Then one is left with the option of either breaking or keeping the precept. If one keeps the precept one is conditioning the mind towards Nibbana, if one breaks it, away from Nibbana. Continuously keeping the precept, ones mind is habitually conditioned to keep the precept. This becomes second nature. One then does not kill even a mosquito when bitten but simply blows it away. It is said that this then conditions the mind to a great many other things(refer http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/006-akankheyya-sutta-e1.htm). The presence of the experience must be immediately present and the reflection must be connected as if with an umbilical cord to the experience, for things to be verified. In this way distortion is overcome and doubts cleared. Referencing external sources, particularly the tripitaka, is helpful since we do not have a good memory. *************************************** > > > Since kamma is still active in a non-arahant, things cannot be as > > autonomous as one would like to believe, like in inanimate things. > > The essential difference between inanimate and animate things is > life- > > action, kamma, the ability to choose(intention). > > This sounds like a western philosophical idea? ************************************************* eznir: I was stating things in their most fundamental aspects, lobha and dosa, and the fact that we choose either is due to moha. Moreover they may seem Western but Lord Buddha discovered them long before! *********************************************** > Isn't life more than > just to be able to choose (which I don't believe in. ;-)). ******************************************* eznir: Doesn't all that Life has to offer spring from these roots, Lobha, Dosa and Moha or their counterparts? And are we not choosing from either one(lobha/alobha or dosa/adosa) in any given situation? ***************************************** > > > No matter how perfect our theoretical understanding of the > intricacies of the > > Dhamma is, in every moment of our existence we face this > > question, "what to do with this moment?" And the best course of > > action would be to do that course of action that would cease the > need > > to do that course of action, eventually!(that is when we leave the > > raft and go our ways). > > And what if one sees at that point, that *this* moment is already > conditioned and with it comes detachment, isn't this already an > instance of `leaving the raft' no matter how slightly? ;-) ********************************************** eznir: I wouldn't say, "leaving the raft" but would put it as "having rowed upstream" some distance(in the downward flow of defilements). I think leaving consciousness altogether, as in `anidassana vinnana' of an Arahat, would constitute `leaving the raft'. *********************************************** > > Thanks for you comments. It is good to communicate with you. > > Metta, > Sukin. With you too. Metta eznir 31810 From: sarahdhhk Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 0:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Ray, (Doret & All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Raymond Hendrickson" wrote: > I tend to agree with Doret here. There also seems to be Sutta support > for the position that helping others is one aspect of one's own practice > and indeed is part of helping our self. This is clearly pointed out in one > of my favor ate Suttas, the Acrobat, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-019.h tml . .... S: I was very interested to read this sutta (only this weekend) and your comments. How can we encourage you both to add more comments? B.Bodhi also adds some helpful commentary notes which I'll intersperse in the ATI transl: .... R: >At > first it appears that the Sutta is strong support for the position that > each of us can best help others by working on our own practice, and indeed > I think this is the best approach. ... S:168 "Spk: The master protects himself when he holds the pole firmly, moves with his apprentice, and looks constantly at the top of the pole. the apprentice protects himself when he keeps his body straight, balances himself against the wind, sets up steady mindfulness, and sits down motionless." .... R: But the Sutta ends with this..... > > "Monks, a frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll > watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the > thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one > watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after > oneself. .... S: 169 "Spk: The bhikkhu who gives up frivolous activity and pursues, develops, and cultivates his basic meditation subject day and night attains arahantship. then, when others see him and gain confidence in him, they become destined for heaven. This one protects others by protecting himself." .... R: > "And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through > pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to > it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others. .... S: 169 "Spk: The bhikkhu who gives up frivolous activity and pursues, develops, and cultivates his basic meditation subject day and night attains arahantship. then, when others see him and gain confidence in him, they become destined for heaven. This one protects others by protecting himself." .... R: > "And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through > endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. > This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself. .... S: 170 " The four terms are khantiyaa avihi.msaaya mettataaya anudayataaya. Spk takes the last three as respectively compassion, lovingkindness, and altruistic joy, and explains this maxim from a narrowly monastic perspective thus: "The bhikkhu develops the jhaanas based on the brahmavihaara, then uses the jhaana as a basis for insight and attains arahantship. This one protects himself by protecting others." ..... R: > "A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch > after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, > 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after > others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself." > > So here, IMO, we can see that "engaged Buddhism," be it helping > prisioners or poor, etc, can indeed by an aspect of practice where one is > wathing after themselves by watching after others. I think it is a very > individual thing, and there are many ways to help, but I dont think as a > general rule there has to be a hard line drawn between helping others and > helping oneself. ....Ray .... S: Ultimately, there are no beings or people at all, but the Buddha encouraged the development of all wholesome qualities and the Brahma viharas can be developed as objects of samatha in daily life. I agree with you comment about there not being any general rule or hard lines. It'll depends on inclinations and tendencies as to what mental states arise and what the objects of insight will be. Thanks for this, Ray. Any more favourites??? Metta, Sarah p.s RobK recently reminded us about another acrobat who had the accumulations who became an arahant at the top of his pole on listening to a few words from the Buddha whilst sulking: http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm#348 "On the seventh day, a long pole was put up and Uggasena stood on top of it. At a signal given from below he somersaulted seven times on the pole. At about this time, the Buddha saw Uggasena in his vision and knew that time was ripe for Uggasena to attain arahatship. So, he entered Rajagaha and willed that the audience should turn their attention to him instead of applauding Uggasena for his acrobatic feats. When Uggasena saw that he was being neglected and ignored, he just sat on top of the pole, feeling very discontented and depressed. The Buddha then addressed Uggasena, "Uggasena, a wise man should abandon all attachment to the khandha aggregates and strive to gain liberation from the round of rebirths." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 348. Give up the past, give up the future, give up the present. Having reached the end of existences, with a mind freed from all (conditioned things), you will not again undergo birth and decay. At the end of the discourse Uggasena, who was still on top of the pole, attained arahatship. He came down and was soon admitted to the Order by the Buddha." =========== 31811 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Chuck (Matt, Ken O & All), --- Charles Thompson wrote: > If I may, > > imho, it is our mind (or heart) that frees us or limits us whether we > are in a city or in the countryside. A room in a condo, a room in a > Buddhist temple or a cave can all serve the same purpose - the only > difference is in our perception... .... S: Good to see you posting, Chuck and I fully agree with your comments here. If we read or hear about someone living in a cave or a forest without any attachments, it would be a mistake to think that if we were to live in the same place that would by itself be the way to be rid of attachments. The cause of suffering is attachment, fed by ignorance, not the city or the condo. .... > offered with sincere metta (maitri), ... S: Look forward to more;-) .... M: >Has anybody here gone to any meditation caves? The > idea of just being able to withdraw from the society that we know and > naturally find ourselves and clear out minds in some of those caves > sounds amazing to me. > > > "The bliss of lusts and heaven-world equal not one sixteenth of the > bliss of craving's ending." UDAANA 2.2 .... S: Matt, as you appreciate the Udaana, you may like to look at the story of Meghiya (4:1) as discussed in this earlier post of mine. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20049.html Also, if you have time, pls review the messages under ‘Seclusion’ and ‘solitude’ in Useful Posts and let me know any comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah p.s As Ken O said, Matt, you’re welcome to ‘disturb’ any of us anytime - NAGs or non-NAGs;-)-, though I’m usually rather slow. ======= 31812 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Do we see in dreams Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > I remember we did discuss that about dreams, and my stand is that > there is no seeing in dreams because there is no eye and form in > dreaming to conditioned eye conscioness to arise. Here is the sutta > quote MN 28 Mahahatthipadopama > "If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into > range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then > there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciouness. > If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its > range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then > there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of > conscoiusness. But when internally the eye is intact and external > forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] > engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding > class of consciouness." .... S: It’s a good quote and of course I agree with your comments and logic. By chance, a couple of days before you posted this, a friend sent me the following link to a sutta off-list: Mettanisamsa Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s6-1 We read about the 11 benefits of developing metta: “1. "He sleeps in comfort. 2. He awakes in comfort. *3. He sees no evil dreams.* 4. He is dear to human beings. 5. He is dear to non-human beings. 6. Devas (gods) protect him. 7. Fire, poison, and sword cannot touch him. 8. His mind can concentrate quickly. 9. His countenance is serene. 10. He dies without being confused in mind. 11. If he fails to attain Arahantship (the highest sanctity here and now, he will be reborn in the brahma-world." There is the reference to ‘sees...dreams’, but I read it in the sense that one talks about seeing a mirage or seeing any other illusions whilst one is awake. It was also suggested to me that if one ‘thought about concepts all night’ one would be ‘exhausted by morning’ and I think there’s some truth in this. Deep sleep without wild or evil dreams is a lot more refreshing and an arahant who doesn’t dream at all sleeps the most peacefully of all. ..... K: > Actually this is prove the sense process is valid because the > corresponding [conscious] engagement represents five door adverting > consciousness, without it there will be no sense consciouness .... S: Helpful comments, Ken. Metta, Sarah ====== 31813 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Ken O, Long time no chat! Hope that my butting in helps rather than hinders! Here is a bit of information about the Pure Abodes (I've not heard that they were considered at the same level as the immaterial planes - could you explain more?): The Pure Abodes (Suddhavasa): Peerless Gods (Akanittha), Clear- Sighted Gods (Sudassi), Beautiful Gods (Suddassa), Untroubled Gods (Atappa), Durable Gods (Aviha) ============================== Only those who attain the third holy stage (Anagami; non-returner) will be reborn, after death, in these realms. After death in a Pure Abode, the Anagami will be reborn into another Pure Abode (same level or higher); Anagami born into the Akanittha realm will definitely parinibbana from this realm (no rebirth). Once born in the Pure Abodes, the Anagami will attain Arahantship and parinibbana from one of these realms. All beings reborn into this realm are Anagami with the fourth jhana but the controlling principle or the directive force (indriya), which is the predominant character of each individual, will determine the realm where he is to be reborn: - One whose directive force is saddha (faith) will be reborn in the realm of Aviha for 1000 eons - One whose directive force is viriya (energy) will be reborn is the realm of Atappa for 2000 eons - One whose directive force is sati (mindfulness) will be reborn in the realm of Sudassa for 4000 eons - One whose directive force is samadhi (concentration) will be reborn in the realm of Sudassi for 8000 eons - One whose directive force is panna (knowledge or reason) will be reborn in the realm of Akanittha for 16000 eons According to the Mahapadana Sutta, the Pure Abodes were the only planes of existence where the Buddha, in his long wandering in Samsara before attaining Buddhahood, had never been born. The Buddha thought of this one day and appeared among the Gods of the Suddhavasa. Many Gods of the realm came to him and told him of the important events which had occurred in the periods of many previous Buddhas, beginning from the time of the Buddha named Vipassi who enlightened the world with his teachings ninety-one eons before the present one. The cittas that can arise in this realm are as follows: - 4 lobha-mula citas not associated with wrong view (Javana) - 1 moha-mula citta with restlessness (Javana) - 11 rootless cittas, not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) - 8 wholesome sense sphere cittas(Javana) - 5 wholesome fine material sphere cittas (Javana) <- MOST COMMON - 5 resultant fine material sphere cittas (bhavanga) - 4 wholesome immaterial sphere cittas (Javana) - 1 Arahant path citta (supramundane) - 1 Anagami fruit citta (supramundane) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Nina or Sarah > > If you have time could you tell me more about Pure Abode and why it > is a rupa plane even though it is always consider the same level as > in immaterial planes. > > Ken O 31814 From: Charles Thompson Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:05am Subject: A Sincere Thank You to All on this DSG Forum, Was: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology A very warm thank you Sarah. What you wrote about attachment and ignorance echos what my junior preceptor, Phra Maha Tanant, at Wat Thai DC taught me some years ago. [He just completed his PhD in Buddhism and is visiting Wat Amphawan in Bangkok] I arrived a day late in Bangkok, due to a small snow storm in Philadelphia, PA USA, and only attended the last two days of services for my late Abbot, Phra Kru Sopon Viriyakoon of Wat Amphawan. I have yet to visit The Foundation. But, as soon as I complete all obligations, I will visit The Foundation as I will be here until June. Finally and very importantly, let me thank you all for your contributions to this great Buddhist Forum. I am sure I am not alone in this sentiment. We, your great "lurkers," learn immensely from your discussions which greatly aids in our practice. with sincere metta (maitri), Chuck ............................................................. >From: Sarah >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:36:05 +0800 (CST) > >Hi Chuck (Matt, Ken O & All), > > --- Charles Thompson wrote: > If I may, > > > > imho, it is our mind (or heart) that frees us or limits us whether we > > are in a city or in the countryside. A room in a condo, a room in a > > Buddhist temple or a cave can all serve the same purpose - the only > > difference is in our perception... >.... >S: Good to see you posting, Chuck and I fully agree with your comments >here. If we read or hear about someone living in a cave or a forest >without any attachments, it would be a mistake to think that if we were to >live in the same place that would by itself be the way to be rid of >attachments. The cause of suffering is attachment, fed by ignorance, not >the city or the condo. >.... ........................... rest deleted ....................... _________________________________________________________________ All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn 31815 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi RobM You disappeared so long that I thought you will never come back, I was wandering was I the cause of it because of being too strong wording to you somewhere in Jan/Feb this year. If I offend you in anyway, I apologise. I think I always mixed up the pure abodes with the immaterial planes, after looking at the planes again, now become clearer. Thanks for the information. Why cant beings in the immaterial realm comes to the material realm and listen to the dhamma, it is just because they do not have rupas. Then why cant Buddha go up and expound Buddhism to them, is it because of rupa also or other reason like too much dust in their eyes. Ken O 31816 From: Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - Sarah, thank you for writing "Howard, I appreciated your good-humoured questioning of Ken O's quote and comments;-)" However, I can't find the original posts this pertains to, and there are a couple gaps in what you quote that make it hard for me, and others I would suppose, to determine what my replies you quote are in response to and whether there might not be some validity to them. I will insert markers below where I think there are some confusing gaps. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/29/04 3:00:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Ken O &Howard, > > You were having a delightful discussion on some of the lines in > MN70. Naturally we read them (or even translate them) > according to our understanding of the meaning;-) I've been > meaning to join in. > ..... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > >Continuing with the earlier sutta on MN 70 > >< gradual > >practise, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a > teacher] > >visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he > pays > >respect to im, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the > Dhamma; > >having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; he examines the > meaning of > >the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their > meaning, he > >gains a reflective acceptance of the teachings; when he has > gained a > >reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in > him; > >>>-------------------------------------------------- > ===>> Missing material here about keen interest, enthousiasm, and applying? > > Howard: > > Aha! He does, does he? Well, keen interest, enthousiasm, > and, yes, > > even hope and desire - those causes of suffering - can lead to > >useful volition. After all, we start where we are. > >Howard > > Hmm, he applies it. Whoops, there's volition! (Maybe 'kamma' > >>would sound better to some ears.) > >>------------------------------------------------- > .... > S: ;-) `Chando jaayati, chandajaato ussahati', wholesome > chanda arises as conditioned by the reflections on the > teachings. > ..... > >k: Hmm, I think I have said there is very thin line in > distinguishing > >being conditioned by considering dhamma and one that is > being > >condition by a deliberate action. When he applies his will, it is > >conditioned by his zeal which is condition by all the way to > hearing > >of dhamma. It is clear that he does not purposedly will, he > applied > >it because of considering of dhamma (conditions condition) > .... > S: Well said, Ken O. The thin line between silabata paraamaasa > and chanda arising naturally with pa~n~naa. > .... > >>------------------------------------------------ > ===>> Something missing about scrutinizing and striving resolutely? > >>Howard: > >> Hmm, he scrutinizes. That must take some will and > effort. > >>(Oh, yes, of course - it *says* that he strives. Oh my, it > >actually says that he strives *resolutely*!) > >>----------------------------------------------- > .... > S: `ussahitvaa tuleti, tulayitvaa' he examines what is experienced > with pa~n~naa again. Or we can say, panna examines the > dhammas directly. > .... > >k: When one scrutinizes do one need to purposedly go and > >scrutinizes. Have you ever suddenly recall an idea and > scrutinize it > >at the moment. After scrutinzes and known it is beneficial, > >confidence of the dhamma will built up, and that confidence > will > >condition striving and *resolutely* ;-). > .... > S: `padahati, pahitatto...' strives, takes up, confronts the ultimate > truth. Or again, pa~n~naa directly knows the truth. We had the > same word for penetrating the truth in the Vism I think. > > `....and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom'* > * BB note: > "MA: with the mental body he realises Nibbana, the ultimate truth, > and he penetrates it with the wisdom pertaining to the > supramundane path." > > As you say, Ken O, no self or will to actively have zeal or strive, > but panna by considering, examining, scrutinising, developing > and realising the truths will naturally and inevitably realise > nibbana directly. > > Howard, I appreciated your good-humoured questioning of Ken > O's quote and comments;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31817 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Sarah, Nina, Chris, Jon, Phil, Ken O, Mike N and all How are you? Thank you, Sarah, for providing Vibha~nga translations of Section 357 and 525. And also Soma Thera's commentary translation. The Section 550 Pali on my CD ROM also comes with omissions (pe "peyyaala") as follows. 550. "Sato sampajaano"ti. Tattha katamaa sati? Yaa sati anu ssati …pe… sammaasati– ayam vuccati "sati". Tattha katamam sampajaññam? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa …pe… amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi– idam vuccati "sampajaññam". Iti imaaya ca satiyaa iminaa ca sampajaññena upeto hoti …pe… samannaagato. Tena vuccati "sato sampa- jaano"ti. Today I was reading Anguttara and Majjhima commentaries on Aaka~nkheya Suttam (in both Nikaayas) where the term "vipassanaaya" occurs. Aacariya Buddhaghosa defines Vipassanaa as Anupassanaa and mentions 7 Anupassanaas. I think you, Nina and Chris (?) had a thread on Bhaddekaratta Suttam on DSG. The Bhaddekaratta Suttam highlights the urgency of the present moment, so here the Buddha no longer cares about Samatha Jhaanas. Without furhter ado, he simply asks us "to wisely observe the present phenomenon wherever it arises (paccuppanna~nca yo dhammam, tattha tatha vipassati)." If you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, how about posting here for all to see the Suttam where the Buddha taught only Vipassanaa when there is no time to waste! You could also re-cycle :-) previous discussions. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Suan & All, I'm linking in your earlier message with section 357 as well, because I think it's useful and I'm giving the translation for this part too. ..... Suan:> The word "ANUPASSII" as in "Kaayaanupassii" occurs many times in the Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. Anupassii, when meaning a wise observer, is one who has "Anupassanaa". When we have the term "Anupassanaa", this amounts to having the term "Vipassanaa" as well. Pali quote coming! < snip> 31818 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi RobM I need your expertise on this. Recently I know of a friend that commited sucide and with both of her kids. Even though I know dont really remember her, this news immersely sadden me. I read the post on transference of merits. There are three criterias, I find the last one the person should know and rejoice the merit being transfer. To me isnt this a bit difficult even though I know spirits/petas/devas can read thought directed to them. What if they do not know? I like to know are we able to transfer merit to people in the hell or animal realm. I like to know what is the kammic result of killing oneself and how one could transfer merit to this person Ken O 31819 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:34am Subject: Re: Theravada Cosmology Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > I need your expertise on this. Recently I know of a friend that > commited sucide and with both of her kids. Even though I know dont > really remember her, this news immersely sadden me. I read the post > on transference of merits. There are three criterias, I find the > last one the person should know and rejoice the merit being transfer. > To me isnt this a bit difficult even though I know > spirits/petas/devas can read thought directed to them. What if they > do not know? > > I like to know are we able to transfer merit to people in the hell or > animal realm. > > I like to know what is the kammic result of killing oneself and how > one could transfer merit to this person > The plane of rebirth depends on the nature of the last thought. If your friend committed one of the five henious deeds (matricide / patricide / murdering an Arahant / wounding a Buddha / causing a schism in the sangha) then they are destined for hell. This is a weighty kamma that will automatically arise in the last thought. The next priority is taken by near-death kamma, a potent action remembered or performed shortly before death. I suspect (but do not know) that this was at play when your friend committed suicide. In the absence of near-death kamma, habitual kamma (a frequently repeated action) influences the last thought. Finally, reserve kamma (a random act from most recent or past lives) comes into play. If the last thought is: - Delusion rooted: probable rebirth as an animal - Attachment rooted: probable rebirth as a hungry ghost - Anger rooted: probably rebirth in hell or as a titan - Rooted in non-attachment and non-anger: rebirth as a human or lower (earth-bound) deva - Rooted in non-attachment, non-anger and wisdom: rebirth as a human or deva - Associated with jhana: rebirth in fine material plane or immaterial plane I can only guess (but there is no way to be sure) that your friend's last thought was probably rooted in delusion or anger. If this is the case, there is no way for her to recieve your merits. Hell beings are not associated with this world and cannot recieve merits. Animals are too overcome with delusion to recieve merits. Hungry ghosts are attached to this world and therefore are witness to what happens here. They can sense your thoughts and share in your merits. These are the beings that can share your merits. The current state of your friend is only guess work. I strongly urge you to perform some good deed (charity, etc.) and dedicate the merit accrued to your friend. If she can recieve the merits, it is wonderful. If she cannot, you have lost nothing (in fact, the act of dedicating merits to others is itself an act of merit bringing good kammic results to you). I recently read of a woman who left her husband in Thailand to go to Singapore for a health check. She found that she had cancer of the womb and committed suicide by jumping off a building tied to her two daughters aged 3 and 5. Perhaps this is your friend. I plan to do some dana tomorrow and will dedicate this action to this woman and her daughters. Thank you for prompting me. Metta, Rob M :-) 31820 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:41am Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: >Hello Jeff Metta, Phil P.S Sarah, I know I promised not to scold people, but I honestly belive pointing this out could be helpful for Jeff. I'm not doing it to exercise my sarcasm or express ill-will. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Phil, The whole message is quite neutral. I would like to add one more piece. 'Upadana paccaya bhavo' Existence is conditioned by clinging. With much respect, Htoo Naing 31821 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi RobM > > You disappeared so long that I thought you will never come back, I > was wandering was I the cause of it because of being too strong > wording to you somewhere in Jan/Feb this year. If I offend you in > anyway, I apologise. ===== Work is overwhelming me. Don't worry, you haven't offended me - I'm very thick-skinned. ===== > I think I always mixed up the pure abodes with > the immaterial planes, after looking at the planes again, now become > clearer. Thanks for the information. Why cant beings in the > immaterial realm comes to the material realm and listen to the > dhamma, it is just because they do not have rupas. Then why cant > Buddha go up and expound Buddhism to them, is it because of rupa also > or other reason like too much dust in their eyes. Beings in the sensous realm have six senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind). Beings in the fine material realm have three senses (eye, ear, mind) so they can see and hear a Buddha when one arises. Beings in the immaterial sphere have only the mind sense (except, of course, for the unconscious / asannasatta beings). Beings in the immaterial sphere can't listen to the dhamma because they can't hear. Metta, Rob M :-) 31822 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo (& Ken O), S: Thanks, Htoo, this is a very important question. We have to consider what satipatthana is and what the purpose of developing it is. ========================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah. Everything is clear. Every word works. One more thing could you support with evidence that pannatta cannot be the arammana of mahasatipatthana? This is quite important. You will know what I mean. :-) I will be looking forward to hearing from you. With Metta, Htoo Naing 31823 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) S: Thanks, Htoo, this is a very important question. We have to consider what satipatthana is and what the purpose of developing it is. Htoo: One thing, in Myanmar we used to say khandha, ayatana, dhatu, sacca as main things to diecern Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 31824 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:57am Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > As I've said before I'm very interested in the brahma-viharas. The > one that I've consistently had the most trouble understanding and > practicing correctly (I think) is mudita - sympathetic joy. > > Here's a passage on mudita from Nina's book "Cetasikas" : > > > N: "Sympathetic joy can be developed in daily life. There are > opportunities for its development when we see someone else's good > fortune. if we see the disadvantages of jealousy there are conditions > for being appreciative when we see that someone is in good health, > has success in life and receives honour and praise." > > P: My confusion lies in the fact that since "honour and praise" > and "success in life" often come through ways that don't reflect > right understanding, how can we avoid exercising judgement? I wonder > if panna can play a role in whether mudita or karuna arises. > > > N: "If we tend to be jealous it is difficult to cultivate > sympathetic joy, since jealousy has been accumulated there are > conditions for its arising when we see that someone else receives > praise or other pleasant objects. it is useful to realize such > moments of jealousy, even when they are not coarse but more subtle. > If right understanding is being developed we will see that someone > else's success does not belong to a "person", that it is only vipaka > which is conditioned by kamma, Thus, jealousy is in fact groundless. > When right understanding sees that there are no people, no things > which exist, only nama and rupa which arise and fall away, there will > gradually be less conditions for jealousy." > > P: Perhaps I've found my answer here. Perhaps it is best to be as > uncritical as possible of others' success, in the right understanding > that if it does indeed come from wrong understanding, there is no > need for "me" to be concerned about whether to feel sympathetic joy > or compassion - vipaka will work out in the way it is being > conditioned by khamma. Imagine that you attend a piano recital. A child plays a very difficult piece very well. After the piece is over, the child stands to bow to great clapping from the audience. You notice the child looking at his parents and his teacher in the audience. The child is beaming with "I did it!" The parents and teacher are beaming with pride. As you observe this moment, a feeling of mudita arises in you. There is no thought of judgement. Practicing or playing piano, or the feelings of pride / acceptance have nothing to do with right understanding. But that does not mean that they cannot be a condition for mudita arising in you. As it says in Vism XVII 102, even our own akusala can be a condition for the arising of our own kusala. If this is the case, why should the arising of our kusala be dependent on the level of right understanding of somebody else in their actions? Have I understood your question properly? Metta, Rob M :-) 31825 From: Raymond Hendrickson Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Sarahdhhk, R: Thanks very much for the commentary and the kind words. > [Original Message] > From: sarahdhhk > To: > Date: 3/29/2004 12:35:27 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence > >. > S: Ultimately, there are no beings or people at all, but the > Buddha encouraged the development of all wholesome qualities > and the Brahma viharas can be developed as objects of > samatha in daily life. I agree with you comment about there not > being any general rule or hard lines. It'll depends on inclinations > and tendencies as to what mental states arise and what the > objects of insight will be. Thanks for this, Ray. Any more > favourites??? > > Metta, The comments about the Brahma viharas is very interesting and certainly fits within the context of the Sutta. To move the contemplation of the brahmavihaara into action, engaged Buddhism, is probably a bit of a stretch of interpretation :) I do think it is reasonable to interpret the Sutta to mean that by helping others we also help ourselves, conventually speaking of course, can apply to action as well as contemplation of the brahmavihaara. This would fit in with you comments about the Buddha encouraging the development of all wholesome qualities. I also found the comments about the observation of moment to moment mental arisings to be very helpful, I think by Christine? She really points out the danger to such actions and how from moment to moment we must be aware of arisings thoughts and feelings to guard against the arising of unwholesome qualities even in the midst of action to "protect others." And of course the greatest gift or act would be the giving of the Dhamma, and in deepening our practice through the cultivation of the brahmavihaaras we are in a better position to discuss and share the Dhamma with others. Thanks very much for posting the commentary. P. S. it might be interesting for folks to post their favorite Suttas, I think perhaps those Suttas that we go to over and over again are the ones which have given rise to moments of insight. Metta ....Ray 31826 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 0:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Sarah, Thank you for this message. Please do add more. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor & All, > > The same Gotami sutta is also quoted and elaborated on in the > Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller) under Classification of the Jhanas, 1595f. > Let me give a small part of it: [snip] > > If you find it interesting, I can add more. > > Metta, > > Sarah 31827 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Sarah, Thank you for the message. How does a layperson live in contentment in the market economy? It also seems to me that most commercials exploit discontent, and a prevalent message in the commercials seems to be this: "Buy this and you will be happy." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > [snip] > > Metta, > > Sarah 31828 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam By following the Noble Eight Fold Path one comes inexorably to Cessation (nibbana). Through Right View (samma-ditthi) one observes Right thought, speech, action and livelihood (samma-sankappa, vaca, kammanta and ajiva). Through this Right Effort (samma-vayam) one arrives at Right Mindfulness (samma-sati). Right Mindfulness culminates in Right Meditation (sama-samadhi). Right Meditation bares various fruits including absorption (jhana) and insight (vipassana). These fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path lead inexorably to Cessation (nibbana). Maha-cattarisaka SuttaMN117, Having developed Right View without the fermentations, one should develop Right Resolve without the fermentations. And how does one develop Right Resolve wihtout the fermentations? By being resolved on Right Meditation (samma-samadhi). And for what purpose is Right Meditation developed? For the purpose of developing Right Knowledge. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn117.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta, DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html "And what is right meditation (sama-samadhi)? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first absorption (jhana)... (through fourth jhana). Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." Latukikopama Sutta, MN 66 "...he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. Samadhanga Sutta AN V. 28 "He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the ecstasy (piiti) and bliss (sukha) born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by ecstasy (piiti) and bliss (sukha) born from withdrawal." Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four absorptions (jhanas) slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." Jhanasamyutta, SN 34 "Therein, bhikkhus, the meditator who is skilled both in meditation regarding absorption (jhana) and in attainment regarding absorption (jhana) is the chief, the best the foremost, the highest, the most excellent of these four kinds of meditators." Dhammapada Verse 372 Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption." Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:27:00 -0000 From: "abhidhammika" Subject: Re: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam If you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, how about posting here for all to see the Suttam where the Buddha taught only Vipassanaa when there is no time to waste! You could also re-cycle :-) previous discussions. With regards, Suan 31829 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello Phil, an example of sympathetic joy is taking joy in the accomplishments of others, and avoiding criticism. I am happy to hear that you are working on abandoning unwholesome states and cultivating wholesome states through embodying the Brahma Viharas, excellent work. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks ******************** Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:36:18 -0000 From: "Philip" Subject: Mudita and judging others' joy Hello all, As I've said before I'm very interested in the brahma-viharas. The one that I've consistently had the most trouble understanding and practicing correctly (I think) is mudita - sympathetic joy. <.....> 31830 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - I'm not at all confident that I can further clarify what I said here, but I'll try. Jon: You're doing a good job so far! Howard: I have no idea of what else they [dhammas] are! They are not imagined, but directly experienced, and they are simple, not complexes. Jon: I am wondering if this description could be paraphrased as: Dhammas are the individual and fundamental phenomena (realties) arising at the present moment. Does this say the same thing as your description, or is your description intended to carry other meaning also? It's a subjective thing, I suppose, but as regards your original wording of 'direct, elementary experiential conditions', I think the words 'experiential' and 'conditions' tend to confuse the picture somewhat. 'Experiential' suggests consciousness as opposed to its object, while 'condition' suggests 'paccaya'. Howard: You are missing my point here, Jon. What people usually think of as having attributes are conventional entities like tables, trees, and rabbits. The elementary attributes these (actually nonexistent) entities supposedly have, such as hardness, motion, and warmth are paramattha dhammas. But there being no such entities, there are no attributes of them either. All there are are the paramattha dhammas and relations among them. The important point is that there *seem* to be such entities, and they *seem* to have attributes. People then naturally extrapolate from this erroneous thinking, and apply it to things that *do* exist, the paramattha dhammas. If tables have properties, they will think, then so must things like hardness. But that is not so. Hardness is hardness is hardness. There is no more to be said. Jon: Sorry I missed your point; I think I understand now. You are saying that, given people's tendency to impute attributes to conventional objects, they will also impute properties or attributes to paramattha dhammas. You are referring here to an aspect of wrong view, I believe. Going back to your original statement that drew my attention: "Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute distinction is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes.", now that we've discussed the various individual components of the statement, perhaps you could say a bit more about the problem you refer to here, as I'm still not clear what it is. Thanks. Jon 31831 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello Phil, you are quite right, accomplishments in a single lifetime are insignificant, when compared to tens of thousands of lifetimes. Since I have recovered the memory of tens of thousands of lifetimes, then your achievements in this lifetime are truly insignificant. While I have no "attachment" to my accomplishments, if you read the discourse of the Buddha, I am confident that you will find the Buddha and his disciples contextualized their teaching based upon attainment through "direct knowledge and experience", since I have "direct knowledge and experience" I therefore contextualize my teaching upon attainment, as well as the study of the discourses of the Buddha. Keep practicing, studying, reflecting and observing ethical conduct. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks ******************* Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:29:14 -0000 From: "Philip" Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello Jeff >I understand Ven. Thanissaro >Bhikkhu is about my age and he has been studying the >dhamma and meditating about as long as I have. For a man of such experience, you certainly are interested in chronology! I've only seen your posts for 2 months or so, but I've already heard many times that you have practiced for 30 years. <.......> 31832 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:28pm Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Rob, and Jeff, and all. R:> Imagine that you attend a piano recital. A child plays a very >difficult piece very well. After the piece is over, the child stands >to bow to great clapping from the audience. You notice the child >looking at his parents and his teacher in the audience. The child is >beaming with "I did it!" The parents and teacher are beaming with >pride. As you observe this moment, a feeling of mudita arises in >you. There is no thought of judgement. P: This is a great example, Rob, because in my case I'm afraid judgement would arise! As you know (if I'm not mistaken you also live in Japan, along with Rob K) a lot of kids are forced to take piano lessons by their "kyou-iku mama" mothers. (Super competitive mothers who are obsessed with their childrens' education.) Children hardly ever have time to play in the park because of English lesson, piano lessons, ballet lessons and whatever else they are forced to learn. (I once taught French to a 3 year old who was also studying English and Russian) So in that situation I would find myself wondering if the child was really beaming, or was just relieved that a tramautic disaster hadn't happened yet. So yes, I definitely struggle with mudita. I can easily underand how upekkha, metta and karuna are immeasurable and do not discriminate, but I haven't understood mudita yet. For example, it is cherry blossom season season and the other day I walked through a park where people where sipping sake under the blossoms. Being a person who still enjoys a beer on occasion, I was able to understand the wholesomeness of the way they seemed to be enjoying alcohol, and the scene was so lovely that mudita arose. But then I questioned it, knowing that alcohol drunk in a wholesome way cannot be separated from alcohol drunk in a way that makes people lose their minds. Well, that's an easy one. Mudita cannot arise when alcohol is involved. R:> As it says in Vism XVII 102, even our own akusala can be a condition > for the arising of our own kusala. If this is the case, why should > the arising of our kusala be dependent on the level of right > understanding of somebody else in their actions. P: Jeff says that mudita should mean freedom from criticizing others, and since the brahma-viharas are considered immeasurable it would seem that he's right. But it seems to me that criticism of others' can be done in a spirit of friendship and not criticizing in some situations could possibly point at indifference. Conditioned dhammas are arising, and people will do what they will do, but not in a way that completely excludes intervention from being helpful. I think if we look at our own lives we can find many cases where a word of criticism at the right time opened new windows of understanding. So while the arising of our kusula is certainly not dependent on others' right understanding, I do believe others' right understanding can give our factors a nudge in the right direction. I think of a log going down a river, veering to one side and being nudged by a man with a pole in the hope of preventing it from getting caught up on the shore. The momentum of the log (conditioned) will be the deciding factor but who knows to what degree a prod from someone might be able to right the log's course. And it doesn't do any harm to try unless conceit arises through it, or the wrong view that we can change people for the better. We can't do that. But we might be able to give them a nudge that helps them wake up a little and start doing the work themselves. BTW, Rob, I found some very excellent posts by you in the Useful Posts in which you used something like flowcharts to explain the Abhidhamma for beginners. They helped me a lot and I know I'll be returning to them. Again, I hope I'm not confusing you with someone else. :) Metta, Phil 31833 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hello all. Have to share what just happened. Every morning, I read a chapter from the Dhammapada, and this morning, just after posting on mudita, this is the first verse I saw: "When this world is ever ablaze, why this laughter, why this jubilation." (146) Of course the Buddha isn't saying that laughter and jubilation are wrong, but maybe that we can question them. That's the way I take it anyway. (The danger of reading sutta for me is that I always take whatever I read to confirm my theories, which is foolish, I know.) BTW, getting back to piano lessons, I should clarify that I don't think anyone who sends their kids to such lessons should be judged. It's just that I have seen cases of borderline abuse in the interest of early childhood education here that puts me on guard. And re kids, I find that watching/hearing them is the source of mudita that arises most easily. I seem to be more judgemental when adults are involved. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Rob, and Jeff, and all. > > > R:> Imagine that you attend a piano recital. A child plays a very > >difficult piece very well. After the piece is over, the child stands > >to bow to great clapping from the audience. You notice the child > >looking at his parents and his teacher in the audience. The child is > >beaming with "I did it!" The parents and teacher are beaming with > >pride. As you observe this moment, a feeling of mudita arises in > >you. There is no thought of judgement. > > > P: This is a great example, Rob, because in my case I'm afraid > judgement would arise! 31834 From: Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/29/2004 5:07:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > I'm not at all confident that I can further clarify what I > said here, but I'll try. > > Jon: > You're doing a good job so far! > > Howard: > I have no idea of what else they [dhammas] are! They are not > imagined, but directly experienced, and they are simple, not > complexes. > > Jon: > I am wondering if this description could be paraphrased as: Dhammas > are the individual and fundamental phenomena (realties) arising at > the present moment. Does this say the same thing as your > description, or is your description intended to carry other meaning > also? > > It's a subjective thing, I suppose, but as regards your original > wording of 'direct, elementary experiential conditions', I think the > words 'experiential' and 'conditions' tend to confuse the picture > somewhat. 'Experiential' suggests consciousness as opposed to its > object, while 'condition' suggests 'paccaya'. ---------------------------- Howard: Your formulation is fine. Mine, as I'm sure you detect, additionally reflects my phenomenalist and nondualist viewpoint, but subtly, not overtly. Even without adopting that perpective of mine, it is still correct to say, I believe, that "[dhammas] are not imagined, but directly experienced, and they are simple, not complexes." -------------------------------- > > Howard: > You are missing my point here, Jon. What people usually think > of as having attributes are conventional entities like tables, trees, > and rabbits. The elementary attributes these (actually nonexistent) > entities supposedly have, such as hardness, motion, and warmth are > paramattha dhammas. But there being no such entities, there are no > attributes of them either. All there are are the paramattha dhammas > and relations among them. > The important point is that there *seem* to be such entities, > and they *seem* to have attributes. People then naturally extrapolate > from this erroneous thinking, and apply it to things that *do* exist, > the paramattha dhammas. If tables have properties, they will think, > then so must things like hardness. But that is not so. Hardness is > hardness is hardness. There is no more to be said. > > Jon: > Sorry I missed your point; I think I understand now. You are saying > that, given people's tendency to impute attributes to conventional > objects, they will also impute properties or attributes to paramattha > dhammas. You are referring here to an aspect of wrong view, I > believe. ------------------------------ Howard: Exactly. ----------------------------- > > Going back to your original statement that drew my attention: > > "Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute > distinction is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely > conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing > conditions from attributes.", > > now that we've discussed the various individual components of the > statement, perhaps you could say a bit more about the > problem you > refer to here, as I'm still not clear what it is. Thanks. -------------------------------- Howard: I'm doing no more than referring to that same wrong view. There's nothing I have to add. -------------------------------- > > Jon ============================== With metta, Howard 31838 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Dear Ken O, Thank you very much. I have to reflect more to come back to this, there is much material here. Nina op 29-03-2004 10:10 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > 62 Herein, it might be [asked]: How can it be known that these > formations have ignorance as their condition? -- By the fact that > they exist when ignorance exist. 31839 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:14pm Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > R:> Imagine that you attend a piano recital. A child plays a very > >difficult piece very well. After the piece is over, the child stands > >to bow to great clapping from the audience. You notice the child > >looking at his parents and his teacher in the audience. The child is > >beaming with "I did it!" The parents and teacher are beaming with > >pride. As you observe this moment, a feeling of mudita arises in > >you. There is no thought of judgement. > > > P: This is a great example, Rob, because in my case I'm afraid > judgement would arise! As you know (if I'm not mistaken you also live > in Japan, along with Rob K) a lot of kids are forced to take piano > lessons by their "kyou-iku mama" mothers. (Super competitive mothers > who are obsessed with their childrens' education.) Children hardly > ever have time to play in the park because of English lesson, piano > lessons, ballet lessons and whatever else they are forced to learn. > (I once taught French to a 3 year old who was also studying English > and Russian) So in that situation I would find myself wondering if > the child was really beaming, or was just relieved that a tramautic > disaster hadn't happened yet. ===== Please note that in this case, for you the mudita would only last a brief instant before other (mainly akusala) mental states took over. Because of natural decisive support condition, circumstances can provide the opportunity for various mental states to arise. If the piano recital example stikes a nerve with you, then perhaps you can pick another image that helps you prolong the state of mudita. Perhaps you can think of a mother cuddling her infant. Imagine the mother's look of complete contentment as she rocks in a rocking chair looking down at a baby asleep in her arms. For me, this image evokes mudita. I live in Kuala Lumpur but I fequently travel during the week (China, India, and yes, sometimes Japan). ===== > > So yes, I definitely struggle with mudita. I can easily underand > how upekkha, metta and karuna are immeasurable and do not > discriminate, but I haven't understood mudita yet. ===== Whenever there is comparison, there is mana (conceit). The kusala mental states, such as the brahma viharas, never involve any form of comparison or discrimination. ===== > > For example, it is cherry blossom season season and the other day I > walked through a park where people where sipping sake under the > blossoms. Being a person who still enjoys a beer on occasion, I was > able to understand the wholesomeness of the way they seemed to be > enjoying alcohol, and the scene was so lovely that mudita arose. But > then I questioned it, knowing that alcohol drunk in a wholesome way > cannot be separated from alcohol drunk in a way that makes people > lose their minds. Well, that's an easy one. Mudita cannot arise when > alcohol is involved. ===== I don't understand "wholesomeness of the way they seemed to be enjoying alcohol". There was certainly pleasant mental feeling, but in the strict Buddhist sense, it is unlikely that it was "wholesome". Nevertheless, seeing people drinking sake can be a condition for mudita to arise (Note: the object of mudita must always be a person, never a scene such as the cherry blossom environment). One can see a person and genuinely hope that their good health continue. The fact the person happens to be performing an akusala action at the time (drinking alcohol) is not relevant to the feeling evoked in your mind. ===== > > R:> As it says in Vism XVII 102, even our own akusala can be a > condition > > for the arising of our own kusala. If this is the case, why should > > the arising of our kusala be dependent on the level of right > > understanding of somebody else in their actions. > > P: Jeff says that mudita should mean freedom from criticizing > others, and since the brahma-viharas are considered immeasurable it > would seem that he's right. But it seems to me that criticism of > others' can be done in a spirit of friendship and not criticizing in > some situations could possibly point at indifference. ===== Let's look at the Suttas. I don't think that the Buddha ever criticized a specific person. However, the Buddha would guide a deluded person by preaching the Dhamma. There is a big difference between criticizing somebody and preaching the Dhamma to guide them. ===== > Conditioned dhammas are arising, and people will do what they will > do, but not in a way that completely excludes intervention from being > helpful. I think if we look at our own lives we can find many cases > where a word of criticism at the right time opened new windows of > understanding. > So while the arising of our kusula is certainly not dependent on > others' right understanding, I do believe others' right > understanding can give our factors a nudge in the right direction. I > think of a log going down a river, veering to one side and being > nudged by a man with a pole in the hope of preventing it from getting > caught up on the shore. The momentum of the log (conditioned) will be > the deciding factor but who knows to what degree a prod from someone > might be able to right the log's course. And it doesn't do any harm > to try unless conceit arises through it, or the wrong view that we > can change people for the better. We can't do that. But we might be > able to give them a nudge that helps them wake up a little and start > doing the work themselves. ===== I agree that associating with wise friends and studying the dhamma can be great influence. ===== > > BTW, Rob, I found some very excellent posts by you in the Useful > Posts in which you used something like flowcharts to explain the > Abhidhamma for beginners. They helped me a lot and I know I'll be > returning to them. Again, I hope I'm not confusing you with someone > else. :) ===== Glad you liked some of my earlier posts. Here are some closing thoughts on mudita to illustrate how mudita works together with the other brahma viharas. Unbounded love guards compassion against turning into partiality, prevents it from making discriminations by selecting and excluding and thus protects it from falling into partiality or aversion against the excluded side. Love imparts to equanimity its selflessness, its boundless nature and even its fervor. For fervor, too, transformed and controlled, is part of perfect equanimity, strengthening its power of keen penetration and wise restraint. Compassion prevents love and sympathetic joy from forgetting that, while both are enjoying or giving temporary and limited happiness, there still exist at that time most dreadful states of suffering in the world. It reminds them that their happiness coexists with measureless misery, perhaps at the next doorstep. It is a reminder to love and sympathetic joy that there is more suffering in the world than they are able to mitigate; that, after the effect of such mitigation has vanished, sorrow and pain are sure to arise anew until suffering is uprooted entirely at the attainment of Nibbana. Compassion does not allow that love and sympathetic joy shut themselves up against the wide world by confining themselves to a narrow sector of it. Compassion prevents love and sympathetic joy from turning into states of self-satisfied complacency within a jealously-guarded petty happiness. Compassion stirs and urges love to widen its sphere; it stirs and urges sympathetic joy to search for fresh nourishment. Thus it helps both of them to grow into truly boundless states. Compassion guards equanimity from falling into a cold indifference and keeps it from indolent or selfish isolation. Until equanimity has reached perfection, compassion urges it to enter again and again the battle of the world, in order to be able to stand the test, by hardening and strengthening itself. Sympathetic joy holds compassion back from becoming overwhelmed by the sight of the world's suffering, from being absorbed by it to the exclusion of everything else. Sympathetic joy relieves the tension of mind, soothes the painful burning of the compassionate heart. It keeps compassion away from melancholic brooding without purpose, from a futile sentimentality that merely weakens and consumes the strength of mind and heart. Sympathetic joy develops compassion into active sympathy. Sympathetic joy gives to equanimity the mild serenity that softens its stern appearance. It is the divine smile on the face of the Enlightened One, a smile that persists in spite of his deep knowledge of the world's suffering, a smile that gives solace and hope, fearlessness and confidence: "Wide open are the doors to deliverance", thus it speaks. Equanimity rooted in insight is the guiding and restraining power for the other three sublime states. It points out to them the direction they have to take and sees to it that this direction is followed. Equanimity guards love and compassion from being dissipated in vain quests and from going astray in the labyrinths of uncontrolled emotion. Equanimity, being a vigilant self-control for the sake of the final goal, does not allow sympathetic joy to rest content with humble results, forgetting the real aims we have to strive for. Metta, Rob M :-) 31840 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Phil, S: Your posts are very encouraging to us all. --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. > > Have to share what just happened. Every morning, I read a chapter > from the Dhammapada, and this morning, just after posting on mudita, > this is the first verse I saw: "When this world is ever ablaze, why > this laughter, why this jubilation." (146) Of course the Buddha isn't > saying that laughter and jubilation are wrong, but maybe that we can > question them. .... S: Question and see the ignorance and attachment for what they are. Narada transl: ‘What is laughter, what is joy, when the world is ever burning? Shrouded by darkness, would you not seek the light?’ The story behind the verse is about when Visakha visited the Buddha and the women accompanying her became drunk and in their drunken state started dancing and singing before the Buddha with disrespect. He created darkness and they came to their senses. You asked about the origins of the Dhp stories. By tradition, I believed they are ascribed to Buddhaghosa or a contemporary commentator who transcribed and collected them from the Sinhalese manuscripts of the original commentaries. See Nina’s recent post on commentaries and others in U.P. It’s a controversial area and some friends prefer to put aside all commentarial material or even the Dhp verses themselves;-) .... P: >That's the way I take it anyway. (The danger of > reading sutta for me is that I always take whatever I read to confirm > my theories, which is foolish, I know.) .... S: I think we read according to our limited understanding and also the way it is presented in the translation and commentary. I greatly enjoy your anecdotal posts such as the sidewalk one. We had a big debate on this issue in Hong Kong a few years ago - I think it was decided we should all walk on the right. But with large numbers of tourists and locals who don’t like following rules, it was bound for failure and we soon resumed the bumping ways we’re used to. At the end of that post you mentioned that the Buddha taught ‘to doubt everything’ and suggested the solution was to doubt ‘even while yielding’. Usually when people mentioned that the Buddha encouraged ‘doubt’, they are referring to the Kesamutti (Kalama) sutta where we often read ‘it is right to doubt’ or something similar. In fact the meaning as I understand is more along the lines of ‘it is natural to doubt’. In other words, doubt(here kankha and viccikicca) is always akusala (unwholesome). I think Woodward’s (PTS) translation expresses the meaning best: “ ‘When we listen to them, sir, we have doubt and wavering as to which of these worthies is speaking truth and which speaks falsehood’. ‘Yes, Kalamas, you may well doubt, you may well waver. In a doubtful matter, wavering does arise.’ “ Let me know if I was on the wrong track with your comment on doubt. ... P: > BTW, getting back to piano lessons, .... S: I like all RobM’s comments and am delighted he’s also stepped in to help with the Pure Abodes. Please encourage him to stay around;-) The Brahma viharas can arise so quickly and instantly. No need to think a long story about whether the metta or mudita is ‘deserved’ or whether the other person’s mental state is pure or not. Like Rob said, when you look at the person in the park there can be gladness that they are happy or enjoying pleasant experiences. When you see the child applauded or the proud parents or teacher, again one can just be glad for them at that moment. As Rob said, at these times there’s no comparison, no thought of oneself, one is just rejoicing for the other. Sometimes I think we make it too complicated by thinking too much. You mentioned that honour and praise may come without right understanding, but we forget about momentary kamma and its results which can arise at any time. It’s very fair. None of this is to suggest we cannot and should not help with the straightening of views when we have a chance, especially if we feel that any joy or claimed benefits from a practice are misplaced as you kindly suggested in an example of your own. I liked the nudging of logs metaphor. I think you’re raising excellent questions and I’ll look forward to other comments. Again, I think as understanding of namas and rupas and kamma-vipaka grows, it becomes easier to really rejoice in others’ good fortune and to think less of oneself. But no revolutionary changes in accumulations....just the wearing away of the adze handle;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Thx for your good intro (and Christine’s adding of the comy notes) on the La.tukikopama sutta. In truth, aren’t we *all* types of people, changing all the time - one moment cittas with mudita, the next with dosa, then with wise reflection and so on. No need to cling to a ‘fixed image’;-) ================================ 31841 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Larry, You raise a number of good points. As we’ll be coming to these sections very soon and Nina will also be looking at the Pali and Tika, I’m going to just make a couple of brief comments without any checking of sources and leave it ‘til then. .... --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > In Vism. XIV 73 B. ~Nanamoli makes a parenthetical clarification in his > translation to the effect that unproduced rupas are conceptual. That is > to say "matter as delimitation...alteration...and characteristic". In > regard to delimitation or space it would seem necessary that there be an > aggregate of tangible data in order for there to be something delimited. .... S: As we know space (akasa rupa) depends on kalapas of rupas to arise and to ‘delimit’. The definition of derived rupas (upada rupa) was that they depend on the 4 primary rupas, so akasa rupa is not a concept, it has characteristics and depends on other rupas. It’s conditioned in this way, indirectly dependent on the same causes that the kalapas or upas are dependent on. I'm not sure if there's any suggestion in the quote on Nanamoli's part to suggest unproduced rupas are conceptual, but there is a comment along those lines in the previously discussed n68 which I mentioned to BB. .... L: > So the question is, is an apparent aggregate a concept? > > Using a strict interpretation of concept as a word and its meaning, I > would say no. .... S: I’m not sure what an apparent aggregate is. Khandhas (aggregates) refer to realities, but of course we use concepts to discuss. .... L: > I was going to introduce this idea when we get to the characteristics of > the tangible data base in Vism. XIV 76 as regards a touched shape, but > it applies here too. I think the easiest way to think about this is to > analyze the appearance of movement. Movement, shape, and delimitation > are all appearances, whether visual or otherwise, that arise due to the > linking of sequential related arisings. .... S: These, including this sense of delimitation, are all concepts. .... L:>Can we say that these > appearances are actually interpretations designated as nonconceptual > moha and amoha (wrong and right understanding)? If so, I think we could > quite accurately call them formations (sankhara). .... S: I don’t think so. .... L: >As such, even right > understanding is a formation and even wrong understanding is a reality. .... S: Yes. .... L: > Supposing someone, the Buddha maybe, could experience a single tangible > datum, that datum would still be a formation in its singularity. And an > illusion is still a real illusion even though the erroneously understood > object doesn't exist. .... S: Yes. .... L: > If this is agreeable we could say space is between concept and ultimate > reality as an interpretive consciousness formation, aka appearance. .... S: As soon as its ‘interpretive’ it sounds like a concept to me. When the characteristic of space is directly known through the mind-door, however impossible this may sound to us, there’s no interpretation. There is direct understanding .... L: >Does > abhidhamma support this? .... S: As I wrote to B.Bodhi, I read the texts as referring to anipphana rupas including akasa rupa as being paramattha dhammas with characteristics to be known. (Of course the lakkhana rupas (production, continuity, decay and impermanence) are characteristics of other rupas. Hopefully, Nina will add more and correct any errors here. .... L: >How does abhidhamma analyze the appearance of > formations or aggregates? .... S: I’m not quite sure of your question. You’d have to give an example. Usually, as soon as there’s an idea of ‘appearance’ it’s a concept, don’t you think? Formations or aggregates are realities which can be directly experienced. Thx for the good questions. I'm rather out of my depth with them;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 31842 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi All, I’d just like to make a passing comment (because of an interesting note off-list) to say that aakaasa rupa should not be confused with the object of jhana, the sphere of boundless space (aakaasaana~ncayatana) which is purely conceptual as are most objects of jhana. Mahayanists sometimes treat this as an unconditioned dhamma but this view is specifically rejected in the Theravada texts such as the Kathavatthu. For more details on these two kinds of aakaasa (space), see: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/akasa.htm Also, in arupa planes of existence where rupas are not experienced, obviously akasa rupa, which depends on the kalapas of rupas to arise would not be experienced until there were conditions (in another plane) for rupas to be experienced again. Just a few comments, but really I know very little about ‘endless space’ as an object of the immaterial jhana. Others may add more. Metta, Sarah ====== 31843 From: robmoult Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 0:08am Subject: Beings and Their Cittas Hi All, 1.0 Beings in Four Woeful Planes - 37 Cittas ============================================ 1.1 Sense Sphere - 37 Cittas 1.1.1 Unwholesome (12): All (Javana) 1.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 1.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 2.0 Disabled and 2-Rooted Worldlings in Sensuous Worlds - 41 Cittas =================================================================== 2.1 Sense Sphere - 41 Cittas 2.1.1 Unwholesome (12): All (Javana) 2.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 2.1.3 Beautiful (12): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 4 Resultant not associated with wisdom (Bhavanga, Registration) 3.0 3-Rooted Worldlings in Sensuous Worlds - 55 Cittas ====================================================== 3.1 Sense Sphere - 45 Cittas 3.1.1 Unwholesome (12): All (Javana) 3.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 3.1.3 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 4 Resultant not associated with wisdom (Bhavanga, Registration) + 4 Resultant associated with wisdom (Bhavanga, Registration) 3.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 3.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 3.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 3.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 3.4 Surpramundane Sphere - 1 Citta 3.4.1 Wholesome (1): Sotapanna Path 4.0 Stream Enterer in Sensuous Worlds - 51 Cittas ================================================= 4.1 Sense Sphere - 40 Cittas 4.1.1 Unwholesome (7): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 2 Dosa-mula (Javana) + 1 Moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 4.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 4.1.3 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 8 Resultant (Bhavanga, Registration) 4.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 4.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 4.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 4.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 4.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 4.4.1 Wholesome (1): Sakadagami Path 4.4.2 Resultant (1): Sotapanna Fruit 5.0 Once Returner in Sensuous Worlds - 51 Cittas ================================================ 5.1 Sense Sphere - 40 Cittas 5.1.1 Unwholesome (7): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 2 Dosa-mula (Javana) + 1 Moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 5.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 5.1.3 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 8 Resultant (Bhavanga, Registration) 5.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 5.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 5.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 5.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 5.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 5.4.1 Wholesome (1): Anagami Path 5.4.2 Resultant (1): Sakadagami Fruit 6.0 Non-Returner in Sensuous Worlds - 49 Cittas =============================================== 6.1 Sense Sphere - 38 Cittas 6.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 Moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 6.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 6.1.3 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 8 Resultant (Bhavanga, Registration) 6.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 6.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 6.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 6.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 6.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 6.4.1 Wholesome (1): Arahant Path 6.4.2 Resultant (1): Anagami Fruit 7.0 Arahant in Sensuous Worlds - 44 Cittas ========================================== 7.1 Sense Sphere - 34 Cittas 7.1.1 Rootless (18): All 7.1.2 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 8 Resultant (Bhavanga, Registration) 7.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 7.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 7.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 7.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 7.4 Supramundane - 1 Cittas 7.4.1 Resultant (1): Arahant Fruit 8.0 3-Rooted Worldlings in Fine Material Worlds - 44 Cittas =========================================================== 8.1 Sense Sphere - 29 Cittas 8.1.1 Unwholesome (10): Not including dosa-mula (Javana) 8.1.2 Rootless (11): Not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 8.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 8.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 8.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 8.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 8.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 8.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 8.4 Supramundane - 1 Citta 8.4.1 Wholesome (1): Sotapanna Path 9.0 Stream Enterer in Fine Material Worlds - 40 Cittas ====================================================== 9.1 Sense Sphere - 24 Cittas 9.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 9.1.2 Rootless (11): Not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 9.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 9.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 9.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 9.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 9.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 9.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 9.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 9.4.1 Wholesome (1): Sakadagami Path 9.4.2 Resultant (1): Sotapanna Fruit 10.0 Once Returner in Fine Material Worlds - 40 Cittas ====================================================== 10.1 Sense Sphere - 24 Cittas 10.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 10.1.2 Rootless (11): Not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 10.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 10.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 10.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 10.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 10.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 10.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 10.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 10.4.1 Wholesome (1): Anagami Path 10.4.2 Resultant (1): Sakadagami Fruit 11.0 Non-Returner in Fine Material Worlds - 40 Cittas ===================================================== 11.1 Sense Sphere - 24 Cittas 11.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 11.1.2 Rootless (11): Not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 11.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 11.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 11.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 11.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 11.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 11.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 11.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 11.4.1 Wholesome (1): Arahant Path 11.4.2 Resultant (1): Anagami Fruit 12.0 Arahant in Fine Material Worlds - 35 Cittas ================================================ 12.1 Sense Sphere - 20 Cittas 12.1.1 Rootless (12): Not including body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 12.1.2 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 12.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 12.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 12.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 12.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 12.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 12.4 Supramundane - 1 Citta 12.4.1 Resultant (1): Arahant Fruit 13.0 3-Rooted Worldlings in Immaterial Worlds - 28 Cittas ========================================================= 13.1 Sense Sphere - 19 Cittas 13.1 Unwholesome (10): Not including dosa-mula (Javana) 13.2 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 13.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 13.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 13.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 13.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 13.3 Supramundane - 1 Citta 13.3.1 Wholesome (1): Sotapanna Path 14.0 Stream Enterer in Immaterial Sphere - 24 Cittas ==================================================== 14.1 Sense Sphere - 14 Cittas 14.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 14.1.2 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 14.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 14.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 14.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 14.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 14.3 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 14.3.1 Wholesome (1): Sakadagami Path 14.3.2 Resultant (1): Sotapanna Fruit 15.0 Once Returner in Immaterial Sphere - 24 Cittas =================================================== 15.1 Sense Sphere - 14 Cittas 15.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 15.1.2 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 15.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 15.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 15.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 15.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 15.3 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 15.3.1 Wholesome (1): Anagami Path 15.3.2 Resultant (1): Sakadagami Fruit 16.0 Non-Returner in Immaterial Sphere - 24 Cittas ================================================== 16.1 Sense Sphere - 14 Cittas 16.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 16.1.2 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 16.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 16.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 16.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 16.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 16.3 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 16.3.1 Wholesome (1): Arahant Path 16.3.2 Resultant (1): Anagami Fruit 17.0 Arahant in Immaterial Worlds - 18 Cittas ============================================= 17.1 Sense Sphere - 9 Cittas 17.1.1 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 17.1.2 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 17.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 17.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 17.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 18.3 Supramundane - 1 Citta 18.3.1 Resultant (1): Arahant Fruit Metta, Rob M :-) 31844 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - > > Sarah, thank you for writing "Howard, I appreciated your > good-humoured > questioning of Ken O's quote and comments;-)" However, I can't find the > original posts this pertains to .... I haven't kept the copy I was using, but I suppose it was this one: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m26195.html Now I'm rather confused too and have just tried unsuccessfully to find the 'gaps'. I assure you, there was no intention to miss any vital links, quite the contrary. I'll just apologise and leave it there. As I said, it was a good discussion and I merely wished to include a few Pali terms I'd checked and to stress the conditioned nature of these factors arising. It reminds me of comments in the Udana and commentary. I mentioned the Meghiya Udana to Matt yesterday. After going unsuccessfully into the mango grove to meditate and being overwhelmed by kilesa (defilements), the Buddha tells him about the ‘Five things [which]conduce to full maturity’ for those capable of being guided. There are a lot of details in the Udana commentary (Meghiya chapter 221f, starting with the details about the importance of the kalyaa.namitto (the lovely friend). It also gives a lot of detail about the eight values and kinds of talk we’re discussing in Victor’s corner, such as talk on contentment, seclusion and so on. We read: “For talk on the part of one who is himself a doer of same is especially efficacious as regards its implied goal. For instance, he is about to say “This Meghiya, may be looked forward to by the monk who is one with a lovely friend....(that such talk as is concerned with ultra-efacement, suited to opening up the heart,... that is to say, talk on wanting little....talk on morality...talk on knowledge and vision of liberation - talk....will gain without trouble”.....”Will gain at will (nikaamalaabhi)”: will gain as is desired, will gain to his liking, will at all times be one getting to hear and to explore these (types of) talk as he pleases. “Will gain without difficulty (akicchalaabhii): will gain without hardship. “Will gain without trouble (akasiralaabhi): will gain in an extensive manner.” ***** S: In other words, talk with wise friends on the topics we’re discussing here such as contentment, modesty and so on will naturally lead to opportunities to consider, discuss and explore further and without difficulty.So even when we read in the Udana about gaining ‘at will’, it should be understood in the light of the conditions discussed. The text contines with a discussion on viriya (energy) and then the fifth factor discussed which follows from the others is: “ ‘Possesses insight (Pa~n~navaa)’: possessi nsight by way of insight associated with vipassanaa. ‘Leading to rise and setting (udayatthgaaminiyaa)’:piercing both the rise and fall of the five khandhas.....” **** Howard, thank you also for sharing your ‘To Merely Be Good’ comments. I agree with your gist, but not with the opening comment about the value of some ‘wrong view’. It may seem that it’s the wrong view which leads to wholesome states, but as I wrote to Jack yesterday, I think we can encourage the latter without the former. As to how we’ll interpret the Dhamma or what wholesome states are cultivated, this will depend on many conditions and the understanding at any time, not on mere ‘attempts’ as I see it. As you say, tolerance for other views and ways is important and “none of us is perfect. it is quite an achievement to merely be ‘good’”. Your other description of the seeds and fertile soil reminded me of the sutta in AN. We all have our limits in understanding and some of us have particular tendencies such as conceit or strong (wrong) views or attachment which make it particularly difficult. Even the Buddha could only teach those in the fertile soil and would give priority to addressing these. Of course, we never have his insight to know, so we just share the little we can understand to be of value and without expectation. Metta, Sarah ======== 31845 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > S: Thanks, Htoo, this is a very important question. We have to > consider what satipatthana is and what the purpose of developing it > is. > > Htoo: > > One thing, in Myanmar we used to say khandha, ayatana, dhatu, sacca > as main things to diecern Dhamma. .... S: And this is the answer to your other question about the objects of satipatthana and the 'evidence' about why pa~n~natti can't be the object. What do we read about throughout the Tipitaka if not about the 'All' of khandha, ayatana, dhatu, sacca etc? In the Abhidhamma texts, starting with the Dhammasangani, what are the paramattha dhammas analysed? In the first section of the Kathavatthu, why can person not be known in the way the ayatnas are known? So I think the answer is in any sutta or text you open. Btw, I thought your comments in response to Christine's qu on kamma and vipaka were fairly subtle but good ones. There are so many factors involved and the kukkucca (worry) doesn't help at all. metta, Sarah p.s Are we on the journey, equipment packed and understanding paramattha dhammas only? ====== 31846 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: A Sincere Thank You to All on this DSG Forum, Was: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Chuck (& Azita), Thanks for your encouraging comments, Chuck. --- Charles Thompson wrote: > A very warm thank you Sarah. > > What you wrote about attachment and ignorance echos what my junior > preceptor, Phra Maha Tanant, at Wat Thai DC taught me some years ago. > [He > just completed his PhD in Buddhism and is visiting Wat Amphawan in > Bangkok] .... S: It always comes back to the present moment. It sounds like you had good guidance;-) .... C: > I arrived a day late in Bangkok, due to a small snow storm in > Philadelphia, > PA USA, and only attended the last two days of services for my late > Abbot, > Phra Kru Sopon Viriyakoon of Wat Amphawan. > > I have yet to visit The Foundation. But, as soon as I complete all > obligations, I will visit The Foundation as I will be here until June. .... S: I'm glad you were able to attend the last 2 days anyway. I'm sure it was very meaningful for you. Perhaps you'd like to share more about the services and your feelings. You have another chance to meet some of us during the week after Easter. Pls contact Sukin for details. I won't try calling you this time;-) .... C: > Finally and very importantly, let me thank you all for your > contributions to > this great Buddhist Forum. I am sure I am not alone in this sentiment. > We, > your great "lurkers," learn immensely from your discussions which > greatly > aids in our practice. .... S: I'm sure none of us are immune from this kind of support;-) Lurkers, please do join in with just the occasional one-liner, so that we know you're around;-) Azita, we'll look forward to seeing you in Bangkok too. Thanks for quoting more from the notes I think I jotted down on those trips to Sri Lanka all those years ago. I can still 'hear' them being said by A.Sujin or Phra Dhammadharo (you can probably tell which are which;-)). Two that stood out from your last batch: "If one is not courageous enough, one clings to calmness for sure." "One is burnt by one's desire all the time. In relity one is attached to one's feeling, not really the person....." Ouch! Metta, Sarah ======= 31847 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:51am Subject: MN131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta "A Single Excellent Night" Hello Suan and all, You asked for someone to post the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (B. Bodhi trans.). I give the sutta below, with the numbers of the notes inserted. The notes are too lengthy to include in this post - but I'm happy to post them if anyone has questions. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ---------------------------------------------------------------- MN131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta "A Single Excellent Night" "1. Thus have I heard. [note 1209] On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindila's Park. There he addressed the bhikkhus thus: "Bhikkhus." - "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: 2. "Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the summary and exposition of 'One "Who Has Had a Single Excellent Night.' [note 1210] Listen and attend closely to what I shall say." - "Yes, venerable sir," the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this: 3. "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; [note 1211] For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; [note 1212] Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincible, unshakeably. [note 1213] Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, [note 1214] Who has had a single excellent night. 4. "How, bhikkhus, does one revive the past? Thinking, 'I had such material form in the past,' one finds delight in that. [note 1215] Thinking, 'I had such feeling in the past,' ... 'I had such perception in the past,' ... 'I had such formations in the past,' ... 'I had such consciousness in the past,' one finds delight in that. That is how one revives the past. 5. "And how, bhikkhus, does one not revive the past? Thinking, 'I had such material form inthe past,' one does not find delight in that. [note 1216] Thinking, 'I had such feeling in the past,' ... 'I had such perception in the past,' ... 'I had such formations in the past,' ... 'I had such consciousness in the past,' one does not find delight in that. That is how one does not revive the past. 6. "And how, bhikkhus, does one build up hope upon the future? Thinking, 'I may have such material form in the future,' [note 1217] one finds delight in that. Thinking, 'I may have such feeling in the future,' ... 'I may have such perception in the future,' ... 'I may have such formatons in the future,' ... 'I may have such consciosness in the future,' one finds delight in that. That is how one builds up hope upon the future. 7. "And how, bhikkhus, does one not build up hope upon the future? Thinging, 'I may have such material form in the future,' one does not find delight in that. Thinking, 'I may have such feeling in the future,' ... 'I may have such perception in the future,' ... 'I may have such formations in the future,' ... 'I may have such consciousness in the future,' one does not find delight in that. That is how one does not build hope upon the future. 8. "And how, bhikkhus, is one vanquished in regard to presently arisen states? [note 1218] Here, bhikkhus, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards material form as self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in self, or self as in material form. He regards feeling as self ... perception as self ... formations as self ... consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, of self as in consciousness. That is how one is vanquished in regard to presently arisen states. 9. "And how, bhikkhus, is one invincible in regard to presently arisen states? Here, bhikkhus, a well-taught noble disciple, who has regard for noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who has regard for true men and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, does not regard material form as self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in self, or self as in material form. He does not regard feeling as self ... perception as self ... formations as self ... consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how one is invincible in regard to presently arisen states. 10. "Let not a person revive the past ... Who has had a single excellent night. 11. "So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the summary and exposition of "One Who Has Had a Single Excellent Night."'" That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted inthe Blessed One's words." 31848 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how ? #1. Dear Eznir, > Please find my comments online below. Sorry for the length of the post. This is what I get for saying too much. But I will try not to confuse kamma and vipaka. ;-) The unpleasant feeling is wholly due to the accumulated kilesas. > > What would be the raft for one who is developing intellectual > > understanding of the Buddha's teachings? > ******************************************* > > eznir: I suppose he has not even got onto the raft, let alone rowing > upstream towards Nibbana! :-)) I suppose he is still fabricating the > raft, the 37 enlightenment factors in particular. Sounds good! But what then is the relevance of the initial caution? > What is Intellectual Understanding anyway? I think it is Constructive > Thinking, whether it be the Buddha's Teaching or even crossing a busy > road. The cluster of thoughts(that constitute intellectual > understanding) that precede an act must be just right if it is to > bear fruit. If not one would meet with an accident(as in the case of > crossing the road). `Intellectual Understanding' as some of us have been using, is I believe related only to the Buddha's teachings. So perhaps we can use instead `pariyatti'. The significance is on the `understanding' part. It is not pariyatti when one understands the `laws of physics' or `conceptual understanding about `self', in relation to `objects', `roads', `road signs', `cars' etc'. The latter may be with complete `Wrong view', but the former rests upon `Right view'. In fact, pariyatti is a level of panna, the same cetasika which when developed to the full results in enlightenment. It is *not* something that can be *used*, as in the case of `information', but rather it is accumulated as sankhara and when the conditions are right, results in practice, `patipatti'. > Before dressing up, one could imagine how perfectly dressed one could > be. But when dressing up there is a proper sequence to follow. One > cannot wear the outer garments before wearing the inner ones. Nor can > one take a face wash with all the make-up done. Yet all this can be done with wrong view. > The same with Lord > Buddha's Teachings, one may have a perfect intellectual grasp of the > Teachings, but how to get there, or rather, how to condition ones > mind, from the Puthujjana's end is why we practice. This is the point where we differ, I think. You see the `practice' as involving `deliberate application', and this may be related to your understanding of the role of `volition'. But I see `patipatti' as a matter of a `coming together of conditions', the main one of which is the accumulated pariyatti. I believe `ignorance' conditions in us a great many ideas about what is and what should and can be done. On a very fundamental level, the very fact that cittas arise and fall continuously with the previous citta conditioning the present and this, the next, giving rise to `conceptual continuity' when involving enough number of cittas, there is an automatic `linking' of events. With ignorance and wrong view still very much dominating, one is then taken in by `ideas' about `what was', `what is' and `what will be'. This then conditions views on `what should be'. Wrong ideas about `deliberate effort' are made, and the "self" gets built around such experiences, and ideas about `what to do' is conditioned. Surely there are direct sequential steps from say, the intention to lie, to actually doing so. And the dependent origination roles on regardless of what we think. However this is *not* the sort of sequence created by our ignorance and wrong view. Even with the formula of dependent origination in front of us, "we" will comprehend wrongly, that is because the level of ignorance is indeed quite deep. Likewise, with the intellectual understanding of the difference between `pariyatti' and `patipatti', this does not mean that the latter will take place at any given moment. Eznir, it seems to me that you are suggesting that `volition' perhaps is what is needed to make that jump from pariyatti to patipatti. I am inclined to think that this may be a result of our ignorance of how dhammas condition one another. The volition is always related to certain `ideas' about what is and what should be. I question the precision or even any correctness of such ideas. But more importantly, if there is any correct understanding of *this* moment at all? If we can't determine whether this moment is kusala or akusala, then what ever ideas we have, it will lead us on the wrong path. That which has been conditioned by `self'. Can anyone `will' sati? And if it is not sati at this moment, then are we accumulating more ignorance? And if all this involves our personal idea about `practice', would this not condition `wrong view'? (continued in #2) 31849 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how? #2 (continued from #1) > > The problem is when we so called, "use a microscope", we don't > > notice that our eyes have become watery due to eagerness, and so > > what we see is distorted. Though we may manage to get our theory > > right, we still have to watch out for Tanha. > ************************************************** > > eznir: This is where practice comes in, after sila having conditioned > the mind to be in the present moment. How does Sila conditioning the mind to be in the present moment?! If it is sila that comes with a moment of satipatthana, then panna is the forerunner. If it is sila as in a `self' restraining, then how does this condition sati of satipatthana? In light of the fact that any dhamma can be the natural decisive support condition for any other dhamma (in mundane sphere) to arise including satipatthana, it would I think, be a case of putting a limit upon the possibility of panna being developed. Such thinking I believe, in the long run, hinders panna. All kusala is good, but how they condition panna is not a matter of time, place, activity or any other wrong idea of having to do this or that first, I think. Still, if one is indeed in the present moment, that is already a moment of `practice'! > Talking of Tanha, even now, in > my posts, I see conceit mocking at me at times! But perhaps, if one > merely state the Dhamma and do not extol nor disparage, I suppose one > is doing the right thing. :-)) > ****************************************************** Yes, but don't you think this can be sati and panna at work and not a matter of `deciding to practice'? :-) > > But even if we do > > this, a great many other conditions will determine if in fact there > > will be any understanding. And then, when this theoretical level > > will condition the practice level and how much of that will > > ultimately condition realization. > ********************************************** > eznir: This is where reflective acceptance of the Teachings is > necessary to condition the mind. Then the junk can be discarded. One > then builds up a thought structure that is closely knitted, the > incompatible thoughts having been abandoned. This mesh of dhamma when > seen(in the present moment) reveals Paticcasamuppada, the structure > of existence, the dependent condition of everything in every other thing. > ********************************** I am actually not talking about replacing `thought structures'. I do make a distinction between `thinking' and any real moment of `satipatthana'. At my level of understanding it is always the former. However, any *doing* on my part may condition much worse mental chatter than any `thought structure' I seek to dispel. I may not immediately be aware of this, however if `wrong view' is indeed being conditioned, then worse will come. New junk is being piled up behind my back. ;-) As we have seen so far in the Paticcasamuppada thread, ignorance is ignorance of the Four Noble Truths. Is there any understanding of the Path when we *think* we are practicing? > eznir: I think Intention plays a major role with regard to anything > for that matter. Which is why the Lord Buddha said intention is > kamma. And kamma is what we all have to stop `making' if we are to > realize Nibbana, which an Ariyasavaka does when he realizes > Arahatship. And therefore the actions of an Arahat has no kammic > effect. Intention arises with *all* cittas, kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya. We need only to be concerned with the first two, but does this mean that our personal ideas about these *will* actually make them so? And what is kamma, and what is result? Kamma leads to `vipaka', not to kusala or akusala. Surely citta conditions the next citta, but is this the full picture of why Lord Buddha gave importance to intention? Akusala intentions accumulate more akusala tendencies and so with kusala, and in the big picture, it would be unwise to indulge in the former. But if you are talking about this moment, it is already conditioned! And has it been conditioned with any sati and panna, or by the idea that "kamma is what we all have to stop `making' if we are to realize Nibbana"? Doesn't this idea revolve around a self and dhammas as being capable of being controlled? As far as seeing the value is concerned, in light of the fact that only a sotapanna is assured of no more breaking the precepts, what should be one's aim, to develop understanding to the point of eradicating wrong view, or to `try to stop making new kamma'? Is the latter even possible without right view? > Kamma is something that we are perpetually engaged with, if not we > cannot speak of an existence. Intention and Kamma are two sides of > the same coin, which is why intention is kamma. With respect to > taking effect there are 4 types of kamma, (1)immediately effective (2) > subsequently effective (3)indefinitely effective (4)defunct. But so what? Every citta is accompanied by intention, so any intention to kusala is still accumulating; only we can't determine if indeed it is kusala simply because we place it against an `idea' of what might have been an akusala course of action. Avijja is pervasive, and lobha is both the leader and the follower. (continued in #3) 31850 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . #3 (continued from #2) > eznir: Intellectual knowledge by itself does not condition practice. > If that were true then those professors and scholars in Buddhism > would have realized the Dhamma. I think intention is what conditions > the mind that conditions the practice. Through practice one develops > understanding. Practice is mere repetition of actions that are > conducive to Nibbana. When practice is perfect ones actions become > habitual. I made a slip here; I meant intellectual `understanding' and not `knowledge'. But of course, I disagree with the idea that "intention is what conditions the mind that conditions the practice". I don't think the gap between `knowledge' and `understanding' is made closed by `intention' let alone the gap between this and `practice'. How can mere `words' be `applied' if not onto yet other `concepts'?! The `self' having ideas of theory and practice will likely create yet other ideas of result, I think. > I said, intentions condition the mind. Take the 5 precepts for > instance. When one is about to break a precept, the thought that one > is under oath crops up. Then one is left with the option of either > breaking or keeping the precept. If one keeps the precept one is > conditioning the mind towards Nibbana, if one breaks it, away from > Nibbana. Continuously keeping the precept, ones mind is habitually > conditioned to keep the precept. This becomes second nature. One then > does not kill even a mosquito when bitten but simply blows it away. > It is said that this then conditions the mind to a great many other > things(refer http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/006-akankheyya-sutta-e1.htm). I think we can see the value of sila and other kusala. But what does it mean to "Abide endowed with virtues, honouring the higher code of rules, seeing fear in the slightest fault observe the virtues….." ? Does not all this depend on panna? Can any of this be done without right understanding? The Bhikkhu's life is extremely conducive to the development of satipatthana and all sorts of kusala, but can anyone be a good bhikkhu without understanding? And certainly, it would be great if `good habits' are formed, but what is the `good' determined by, the quality of citta or the outward behavior. If at the moment of making the decision to not kill the mosquito, what is being conditioned more is the `adherence to rites and ritual', would it be any good? > The presence of the experience must be immediately present and the > reflection must be connected as if with an umbilical cord to the > experience, for things to be verified. In this way distortion is > overcome and doubts cleared. Referencing external sources, > particularly the tripitaka, is helpful since we do not have a good > memory. > *************************************** And because the kilesas mostly get their way. ;-) > eznir: Doesn't all that Life has to offer spring from these roots, > Lobha, Dosa and Moha or their counterparts? And are we not choosing > from either one(lobha/alobha or dosa/adosa) in any given situation? > ***************************************** Because there is also vipaka and kiriya cittas alternating all the time and vipaka experiences the other reality, rupa. With all that is actually going on, I think it important not to revolve our `study' on just the two jatis, kusala and akusala. Though it may be that we will `react' to any experience with either kusala or akusala, the development of panna means that nothing is to be given importance over any other dhamma. There is no one who `chooses' between kusala and akusala, these are impersonal just like any other dhammas of the other jatis. Without a clear distinction between kamma and vipaka, we might confuse the two. But perhaps you agree with this, and I am just making an unnecessary remark…?! I have snipped off quite a bit and I am ending abruptly because I am feeling a bit exhausted. Hope you don't mind. :-) Metta, Sukin 31851 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) metta, Sarah p.s Are we on the journey, equipment packed and understanding paramattha dhammas only? ====== Dear Sarah, :-) We have not started the journey. Just collecting equipment. We assemble, disemble, re-assemble ( I am afraid, these words are not in the dictionary? ). They are paramattha dhamma. We assemble a cart with paramattha dhamma then dis-assemble it back into original paramattha dhamma. Then re-assemble into a car and so on. So the journey has not been started yet. Htoo Naing P.S: Number 17 is Dhammavicaya Sambojjhanga. 31852 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > :-) We have not started the journey. Just collecting equipment. We > assemble, disemble, re-assemble ( I am afraid, these words are not in > the dictionary? ). They are paramattha dhamma. .... 'dissemble' I think.....You can see I get impatient with the assembling, dissembling and re-assembling.....not a good packer, but better to get it right before we start;-) No problem, we can use any words,as long as we understand we're only packing and collecting paramattha dhammas and all the pa~n~natti have to be thrown out from the outset;-) .... > We assemble a cart with paramattha dhamma then dis-assemble it back > into original paramattha dhamma. Then re-assemble into a car and so > on. So the journey has not been started yet. .... Right, assembling paramattha dhamma into ayatanas, dhatus, khandhas.....whichever is most convenient for the journey;-) .... > Htoo Naing > > P.S: Number 17 is Dhammavicaya Sambojjhanga. .... ???????? Is this the number of a suitcase or what? Just let me know when all the equipment is collected, secure and without any room for pa~n~natti to sneak in;-);-) Metta, Sarah ======= 31853 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Victor (& Icaro), --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for the message. > > How does a layperson live in contentment in the market economy? ... S: He learns to understand the real cause of discontent, I think and the real meaning of guarding the sense doors and living alone. .... > It also seems to me that most commercials exploit discontent, and a > prevalent message in the commercials seems to be this: "Buy this > and you will be happy." .... S: And yet we know the real causes of discontent are not the commercials around us or any society values. The real causes are the accumulated craving and grasping I quoted yesterday: >Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS) 846: ‘Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping the goods. These states are opposed to *fewness of wishes (appicchaata)* and *contentment(santu.t.thi)*. Hence they are the root of the suffering due to seeking and guarding [of property]’ (see Dii58f).< **** S:I have more for you today from the Udana commentary, Meghiya chapter 229: “ “Talk on contentment (santu.t.thikathaa)’: as regards ‘contentment’ (santu.t.thi) in this connection santu.t.thi (contentment) is satisfaction (tu.t.thi) with what is one’s own (sakena), with what one has oneslef acquired; or alternatively, santu.t.thi (contentment) is saisfaction (tu.t.thi) that is balanced (samaa) after abandoning wanting where the requisites are concerned that is unbalanced, or again santu.t.thi (contentment) is satisfaction (tu.t.thi) with what is existent (santena), with what is known to exist. And there is this that is said: ‘The one not mourning that which is past, not longing for that not yet come, (but) sustaining himself with that which is present, is the one declared ‘content’ ‘ Later we also read: “Thus ‘talk on contentment’ is talk that proceeds by way of explaining the advantages of such contentment, together with the method of demonstrating this and so on, and by way of explaining the peril in the state of being carried away by wanting, divided into the states of wanting to excess and so forth, (which state) is opposed thereto.” ***** We don’t have to emulate MahaKassapa’s fine example as given in the verses -- he was after all ‘foremost’ in ascetic practices (dhutangas), Icaro, but we can appreciate the quality of contentment or being satisfied at the present moment with whatever kamma has produced, whether living in the forest or the city, don’t you think? Metta, Sarah ====== 31854 From: Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/30/04 4:05:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - > > > > Sarah, thank you for writing "Howard, I appreciated your > >good-humoured > >questioning of Ken O's quote and comments;-)" However, I can't find the > >original posts this pertains to > .... > I haven't kept the copy I was using, but I suppose it was this one: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m26195.html > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, good, thanks. I'll take a look. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Now I'm rather confused too and have just tried unsuccessfully to find the > 'gaps'. I assure you, there was no intention to miss any vital links, > quite the contrary. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Of *course*. I have no doubt about that. Now that you gave the escribe link, I can look back to see what I was referring to. That's all that was needed. ----------------------------------------------------- I'll just apologise and leave it there. As I said, it> > was a good discussion and I merely wished to include a few Pali terms I'd > checked and to stress the conditioned nature of these factors arising. It > reminds me of comments in the Udana and commentary. > > I mentioned the Meghiya Udana to Matt yesterday. After going > unsuccessfully into the mango grove to meditate and being overwhelmed by > kilesa (defilements), the Buddha tells him about the ‘Five things > [which]conduce to full maturity’ for those capable of being guided. There > are a lot of details in the Udana commentary (Meghiya chapter 221f, > starting with the details about the importance of the kalyaa.namitto (the > lovely friend). It also gives a lot of detail about the eight values and > kinds of talk we’re discussing in Victor’s corner, such as talk on > contentment, seclusion and so on. We read: > > “For talk on the part of one who is himself a doer of same is especially > efficacious as regards its implied goal. For instance, he is about to say > “This Meghiya, may be looked forward to by the monk who is one with a > lovely friend....(that such talk as is concerned with ultra-efacement, > suited to opening up the heart,... that is to say, talk on wanting > little....talk on morality...talk on knowledge and vision of liberation - > talk....will gain without troubleâ€?.....â€?Will gain at will > (nikaamalaabhi)â€?: will gain as is desired, will gain to his liking, will > at all times be one getting to hear and to explore these (types of) talk > as he pleases. > “Will gain without difficulty (akicchalaabhii): will gain without > hardship. “Will gain without trouble (akasiralaabhi): will gain in an > extensive manner.â€? > ***** > S: In other words, talk with wise friends on the topics we’re discussing > here such as contentment, modesty and so on will naturally lead to > opportunities to consider, discuss and explore further and without > difficulty.So even when we read in the Udana about gaining ‘at will’, it > should be understood in the light of the conditions discussed. > > The text contines with a discussion on viriya (energy) and then the fifth > factor discussed which follows from the others is: > > “ ‘Possesses insight (Pa~n~navaa)’: possessi nsight by way of insight > associated with vipassanaa. ‘Leading to rise and setting > (udayatthgaaminiyaa)’:piercing both the rise and fall of the five > khandhas.....â€? > **** > Howard, thank you also for sharing your ‘To Merely Be Good’ comments. I > agree with your gist, but not with the opening comment about the value of > some ‘wrong view’. It may seem that it’s the wrong view which leads to > wholesome states, but as I wrote to Jack yesterday, I think we can > encourage the latter without the former. As to how we’ll interpret the > Dhamma or what wholesome states are cultivated, this will depend on many > conditions and the understanding at any time, not on mere ‘attempts’ as I > see it. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Two things: First of all, no wrong view is as good as right view. That's indisputable. My point was that there are all sorts of wrong view, that some perspectives that are less than perfect are still useful, and that views that are formally "right" may be followed (or not) in ways that are not useful. Secondly, I agree that mere attempts are never enough. For example, pursuing further the metaphor you mention below, seed planted in infertile soil or in fertile soil that never is watered, will not grow. (On the other hand, without the planting the seed, surely there will be no growth.) --------------------------------------------------------- > > As you say, tolerance for other views and ways is important and “none of > us is perfect. it is quite an achievement to merely be ‘good’â€?. Your other > description of the seeds and fertile soil reminded me of the sutta in AN. > We all have our limits in understanding and some of us have particular > tendencies such as conceit or strong (wrong) views or attachment which > make it particularly difficult. Even the Buddha could only teach those in > the fertile soil and would give priority to addressing these. Of course, > we never have his insight to know, so we just share the little we can > understand to be of value and without expectation. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31855 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:58am Subject: Re: MN131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta "A Single Excellent Night" Dear Chris, Sarah, Nina and all How are you? Thank you for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Bhaddekaratta Suttam. "Atiitam naanvaagameyya, nappa.tika~nkhe anaagatam; yadatiitam pahiinam tam, appattañca anaagatam. "Paccuppannañca yo‚ dhammam, tattha tattha vipassati; asamhiiram asamkuppam, tam vidvaa manubruuhaye. "Ajjeva kiccamaatappam, ko jaññaa mara.nam suve; na hi no sa~ngaram tena, mahaasenena maccunaa. "Evam vihaarim aataapim, ahorattamatanditam; tam ve bhaddekarattoti, santo aacikkhate muni". The above verse from the Bhaddekaratta Suttam is very famous in Myanmar. I have read the verse exerpt before I did the Suttam itself. This Suttam is one of many where the Buddha teaches the classic pure Vipassanaa practice. The above verse exerpt is also applicable to personal Buddhist psychotherapy as well as treating psychiatric patients. My regular dealing with psychiatric patients convinces me of the fact that they are either stuck in the past or worry about the future with the gloomy outlook or with paranoid imaginings (I observed that a few days ago). One of my psychiatric patients confided in me that he had very important projects. Now he has been suffering (I observed) because he imagines there are people out there coming after him to stop him finishing his projects or to steal his project ideas. As a result, I also have to share his suffering. Learning to stay in the present, wisely observing the present real phenomena is beneficial to our mental health at the day-to-day worldly level while at the same time it is pure Vipassanaa practice for liberational insight. The above verse contains the term "vipassati", the verb form of the term "vipassanaa". The Buddha teaches "Paccuppannañca yo‚ dhammam, tattha tattha vipassati; asamhiiram asamkuppam, tam vidvaa manubruuhaye." "The wise one who wisely observes the present phenomenon at each point of arising should increase the unimpeded and unfaltering Vipassanaa practice again and again." With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Hello Suan and all, You asked for someone to post the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (B. Bodhi trans.). I give the sutta below, with the numbers of the notes inserted. The notes are too lengthy to include in this post - but I'm happy to post them if anyone has questions. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ---------------------------------------------------------------- MN131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta "A Single Excellent Night" "1. Thus have I heard. [note 1209] On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindila's Park. There he addressed the bhikkhus thus: "Bhikkhus." - "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: 2. "Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the summary and exposition of 'One "Who Has Had a Single Excellent Night.' [note 1210] Listen and attend closely to what I shall say." - "Yes, venerable sir," the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this: 3. "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; [note 1211] For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; [note 1212] Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincible, unshakeably. [note 1213] Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, [note 1214] Who has had a single excellent night. 31856 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) .... > Htoo Naing > P.S: Number 17 is Dhammavicaya Sambojjhanga. .... ???????? Is this the number of a suitcase or what? Just let me know when all the equipment is collected, secure and without any room for pa~n~natti to sneak in;-);-) Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Please look at the top, the heading says ( 15 ). I said No. 17. Still packing. :-) But in all packing there is no trace of panatta. But all bags for packing are panatta because they still cannot be thrown away. With Metta, Htoo Naing 31857 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 70, Larry's Q. Hi Larry, op 27-03-2004 01:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > What is a "physical basis"? A living being or maybe just one of the > groups with life faculty? N: as we read: Its proximate cause is a physical basis that must be fed with physical food. Physical basis is the translation of the Pali vatthu. Here it is the rupas of the body. Nutrition supports all the groups of a living body, not just those with life faculty that are produced solely by kamma. L:I notice that nutriment doesn't produce living > groups of matter. This seems a little odd. Only kamma produces living > matter. N: Kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition originate rupas of a living body. When I say a living body I mean all the groups originated by the four causes, not only those produced solely by kamma, such as heartbase, or the sensebases. Temperature (element of heat) is the sole cause that originates rupas of a tree or rock, rupas we call dead matter. L:What about genetic engineering, skin grafts, transplants, > artificial body parts etc.? N: No problem. You remember Rob K's post on heart transplantation? That does not prevent kamma to keep on producing the heartbase. The four factors keep on producing rupas so long as there are conditions for them. It does not matter whether there are artificial limbs added. L: I was wondering about Sarah's food poisoning. It seems that we can't > really say nutriment is akusala because that designation is reserved > only for consciousness, but Vism. note 35 says kusala is " 'profitable' > in the sense of health..." and " 'unprofitable' is the opposite". Is > poison akusala or just undesirable (ani.t.tha)? N: 'profitable'> in the sense of health..., this means mental health, or skillfulness. It only pertains to citta and cetasika. Poison in food disturbs the elements of the body. We have been talking about groups, and I think it is helpful to consider the function of the Element of Water or cohesion. This holds the group together, so that the rupas that constitute such a group do not get scattered. This may make it more understandable that rupas arise not singly, but in groups. You had some questions to Sarah about unproduced rupas, but we can see later on what the Tiika has to say. As we go along quietly, we shall see that everything falls into place. The questions that arise about concept or reality, our wondering is it this or is it that, will evaporate if we take a daily life approach. Namely, in how far is this rupa I learn about relevant for my life. How do I experience it? Does it help me to understand the conditionality of the phenomena of my life? Does it help me to become more detached from the notion of self or mine? This is what really matters in our study. Nina. 31858 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:22am Subject: nutrition, Vis. XIV, 70, Tiika Vis. XIV, 70 70. 24. 'Physical nutriment' has the characteristic of nutritive essence. Its function is to feed kinds of matter. It is manifested as consolidating. Its proximate cause is a physical basis that must be fed with physical food. It is a term for the nutritive essence by means of which living beings sustain themselves (cf. Dhs. 646). Vis. 70. ojaalakkha.no kaba.liikaaro aahaaro, ruupaahara.naraso, upatthambhanapaccupa.t.thaano, kaba.la.m katvaa aaharitabbavatthupada.t.thaano. yaaya ojaaya sattaa yaapenti, tassaa eta.m adhivacana.m. Tiika: Ojaalakkha.noti ettha a"ngama"ngaanusaarino rasassa saaro upathambhabalakaro bhuutanissito eko viseso ojaa. As to the words, the characteristic of nutritive essence, this means, while making here a certain distinction, nutrition that is the essence of the fluid that pervades the constituent parts (of the body) and that is the cause of sustaining the body. Kaba.la.m kariiyatiiti kaba.liikaaro. Edible food is made into morsels. Aahariiyatiiti aahaaro, kaba.la.m katvaa ajjhohariiyatiiti attho. It is consumed and thus it is food, after it is made into morsels it is swallowed, is meant. Ida.m pana savatthuka.m oja.m dassetu.m vutta.m. He said this in order to explain nutritive essence with the substance *. Baahira.m aahaara.m paccaya.m labhitvaa eva ajjhattikaahaaro ruupa.m uppaadeti, so pana ruupa.m aaharatiiti aahaaro. After external food has been obtained as a condition, internal nutrition produces materiality, it feeds materiality and thus, this is nutrition. Tenaaha ³ruupaahara.naraso²ti. Thus he said that its function is to feed materiality. Tato eva oja.t.thamakaruupuppaadanena imassa kaayassa upathambhanapaccupa.t.thaano. Therefore, because it generates the octads with nutrition as the eighth ** constituent in this body, its manifestation is consolidating. Ojaaya ruupaahara.nakicca.m baahiraadhiinanti aaha ³aaharitabbavatthupada.t.thaano²ti. With external food as a condition the function of nutrition is feeding materiality, and thus, he said, its proximate cause is a physical basis that must be fed. *** English: As to the words, the characteristic of nutritive essence, this means, while making here a certain distinction, nutrition that is the essence of the fluid that pervades the constituent parts (of the body) and that is the cause of sustaining the body. Edible food is made into morsels. It is consumed and thus it is food, after it is made into morsels it is swallowed, is meant. He said this in order to explain nutritive essence with the substance *. After external food has been obtained as a condition, internal nutrition produces materiality, it feeds materiality and thus, this is nutrition. Thus he said that its function is to feed materiality. Therefore, because it generates the octads with nutrition as the eighth ** constituent in this body, its manifestation is consolidating. With external food as a condition the function of nutrition is feeding materiality, and thus, he said, its proximate cause is a physical basis that must be fed. ***** *The substance (vatthu) is the morsel made food that is swallowed. This external food contains nutritive essence that pervades the body and sustains it. Nutritive essence arises and falls away. ** The eight inseparable rupas are the four Great Elements, visible object, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. These octads arise and fall away in a living body and also in dead matter. Only in a living body nutrition can produce new rupas. ***** Nina. 31859 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:25am Subject: The Buddha's last word Dear Dhamma Friends, Just before going into silence, Bhgava last said, '' Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you : All compounded things are subjected to vanish. Strive with earnestness! '' Then went into silence. Venerable Ananda spoke to Venerable Anuruddha, '' Venerable Anuruddha, The Blessed One has passed away.'' Venerable Anuruddha said, ''No. Friend Ananda. The Blessed One has not passed away.'' The Blessed One went into 1st jhana then to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, boundless space, boundless consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception and back to nothingness, boundless consciousness, boundless space, 4th , 3rd, 2nd, 1st and emerged from that again went into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and then Mahaparinibbana was done. The king of Brahma said a verse. Next said Sakka, the king of Deva. '' Anicca vata sankhara, uppadavaya dhammino; Uppajjitva nirujjanti, te sam vupasamo sukho' ti.'' ''Transient are all compounded things, Subjected to arise and vanish; Having come into existence they pass away, Good is the peace when they forever cease.'' As Sakka said, everything is transient ( anicca ) and this great event of The Blessed One's Mahaparinibbana should never forgotten. And We all should pay special attention to The Buddha's last word '' Appama dena sampadetha'' ' Strive with earnestness'. Sati or mindfulness should be our companion. We have to bring it up all the time. www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html May you all pay attention to The Buddha's last word. With Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- 31860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:22am Subject: Nutriment condition. Nutriment condition. From the Guide to Conditional Relations, U. Narada (p.55, 56). He deals with physical and mental nutrition that are conditions. (The mental nutritions are: contact, volition and contact). Here I shall quote what is said about physical nutrition. 15. Nutriment Condition (Aahaara paccaya). <...The force of support is the essential function. Although nutriment condition has two functions, that of support and that of production, the former is its essential function. How Physical Nutriment supports. When food is taken, the nutritive essence in it not only produces nutriment-produced matter but also supports kamma-produced matter, mind-produced matter and temperature-produced matter in the whole body by keeping them strong and fresh. That is why these three kinds of matter continue to arise successively. When there is no support by physical (i.e. external) nutriment because food is not taken, the nutritive essence in each of the types of matter produced by the four causes in the whole body (i.e. internal nutriment) carries out the function of support only. But when food is taken, the nutritive essence from external food carries out the other function of production, i.e. producing nutriment-produced matter. Human beings commonly can go without food for seven days only... How Nutritive Essence Supports Womb-born Beings, etc. Before the nutritive essence in the food taken by the mother is distributed throughout the foetus, the latter is supported by the nutritive essence in each of the types of matter produced by the three causes. But when it is distributed, nutriment-produced matter is produced for the first time and from then onwards nutritive essence in foods supports the body for the whole period of an existence...> (See also Co to the Sammaditthi Sutta, under: physical food.) N: Remarks: We should remember that the Tiika is not a medical treatise. It emphasizes the specific conditions necessary for the body to function. The goal is detachment from the idea of self or mine. We take all our bodily functions for granted, but we should remember that many different conditioning factors are needed for its functioning. All the rupas that constitute the body arise and fall away immediately. They are replaced so long as there are conditions for life to continue. As we read in the Guide to Conditional Relations, This passage helps us to see all the more how intricate the different conditioning factors are that cooperate to cause the functioning of the body. We can be reminded that the body we cling to are only conditioned rupas, not mine. We cling to our physical health, but we are not the owner of the body. Kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition originate rupas of the body during our life. It depends on kamma how long life lasts. **** Nina. 31861 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:48am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 18 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has slept and he just wakes up. He knows that he is awake. He knows that he is in bed. He is planning for the day and he also knows that he is planning and thinking. At each mind activity he looks into that activity and he at the same time also knows that he is striving with effort. I wants to get out of bed to start the day. He knows that he wants so. Bending the elbow, holding the blanket, stretching the arm, beding the hip, bending the knee, stretching the leg, putting down the leg on the floor, rising up and stand on feet. Through out all these movement he looks into detail and at the same time he also knows that his effort is unwithdrawably striving. He knows that he wants to go to the toilet. Stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off another foot, swinging, footing, standing and so on. In the toliet, he knows that he wants to sit on. Turning, bending trunk, hip and knee, touching with the commode, sitting, want to release, release, releive. Want to clean, clean. Through out all these activities he is mindful and also knows that his effort is working well. Stand up, stretching, stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off and so on and he knows that he wants to go to the basin and then he washes his hands knowingly the touches of water noting the characters. Washing, brushing, cleaning, wiping and then he goes for a shower and notes through out. Flowing, drying, wiping and cleaning are all noted. Each activity is attended, mindful, being investigated and he also knows that the effort is also working diligently. He just takes an ordinary dressing and he consciously changes the dressing. Combing, putting things in their place and then he prepares for paying homage to The Buddha image in the shrine. He sits mindfully and he touches at five areas in his worshiping that is feet, knees, elbows, hands and the forehead. Then he does the routine citing and pays homage to triplegem. He knows he is in tranquil and peace. Through all these activities, he looks into them and sees there is viriya or effort. Then he sits. He knows that he is breathing. When it is long he knows it as long particularly the long touch. When it is short, he knows it as short, noting touch. When in, he knows he is breathing in and when out he knows it out. He knows at that time that he is well calm. He knows calmness is good but he is not too stick to it but investigate it. He stays so in detail analysis through out these activities while effort well energizes him. For some time he has sat and he has been mindful. He wants to rise up. He notes that he wants so. He knows all his bodily movement. From sitting to standing, standing to walking. And he also knows all his actions carrying utensils, plates, cups and saucers. He sits at the breakfast table. He notes that he wants to eat as he was fast the whole night. He notes he stretches his hand and takes the food. he notes that he brings the food to his mouth, opening the mouth, putting the food into the mouth, close the mouth, grind the food, wants to swallows and then swallows the ground food. Stretch out to take the glass, put on the table, pour juice into the glass, want to drink, take to the mouth, put into the mouth, hold and swallow the juice. He knows that he finishes his breakfast, wants to clean mouth and lips with tissue, clean them, put the tissue into the bin. Want to stand, stand, move around and engage the routine. He notes through out the day as far as he can and when he is back home, he changes his dressing mindfully with loose dressing for ease. Have dinner mindfully and finish it and he leaves the dinner table and he sits at his table planning for tomorrow. He knows that he is planning. Through out all these activities he looks into matters as deeply as he can and he sees there is effort working well. When the effort works evidently he realises that effort is working. Effort energises other co-arising dhamma. Effort supports the mind and matters not to withdraw from attending dhamma. When activity after activity are being well noted with effortful mind and every event is well analysed and investigated while supported by viriya or effort and that effort becomes a factor of peer factors that assist arising of higher wisdom. That arising effort is not him or his. He knows that effort just arises and falls away.The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31862 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: Robber Guests? Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.14 Agara Sutta The Guest House Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera. For free distribution only. From Contemplation of Feeling: The Discourse-grouping on the Feelings (WH 303), translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983). Copyright ©1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. "In a guest house, O monks, people from the east may take lodgings, or people from the west, north or south. People from the warrior caste may come and take lodgings there, and also Brahmans, middle class people and menials. "Similarly, O monks, there arise in this body various kinds of feelings; there arise pleasant feelings, painful feelings and neutral feelings; worldly feelings that are pleasant, painful or neutral, and unworldly (spiritual) feelings that are pleasant, painful and neutral." Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-014.html 31863 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:31pm Subject: Robber Guests (was Re: new pages Hello all I'd like to try to clear up my misunderstanding on what is surely a basic point. Kind of retreading my question so thank you for your patience. Below in the posted passage we read: > > When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in > the > > sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the > robber is > > there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala- > dhamma > > (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the other hand, I read this morning in Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe the following, from Chapter 3 : "When we see something pleasant, it is a citta which is kusala vipaka the result of a wholesome deed we performed...every time we experience a pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala vipaka." So does this mean that kusala vipaka that arises from a wholesome deed gives rise in turn to akusala dhamma? Could panna possibly play a role in preventing an automatic arising of akusala dhamma from a pleasant object? Otherwise it would seem to this beginner that if wholesome deeds end up giving rise to akusala dhamma what's the point of doing 'em? ;) (I know that the only benefit we should hope for from our practice is to get rid of defilements.) Thanks in advance for any feedback. (And in passing, thanks in advance to Sarah and RobM for your long and thoughtful responses in the Mudita thread.) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hello all. > > Browsing about in the posts from way back when, came across this. > I appreciate this metaphor of the robber-guest. I would like to think > about it more, but will send it along now as a way of marking it for > future consideration. I will probably want to think about extending > the metaphor, and about to what extent we can an/or should guard the > doors. And what is the skillful way to handle the pleasant guest. > The passage below makes it sound as if finding pleasure is > automatically akusala. ("At that moment the robber is there because > the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala-dhamma") > Is that always the case? Does attachment inevitably arise from > pleasure? > And what role panna would play in this metaphor? An akusala > detector at the door? If we know that pleasure leads to attachment, > can we nevertheless learn to find pleasure in vistors in a wise way > that avoids akusala? Or is only the arahant free from the > arising of attachment and aversion? (Sorry if I've asked a similar > question before.) > > Metta, > Phil > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jonothan Abbott" > wrote: > > >Just uploaded 2 new pages to the section 'A Few Words' at > > >, which should really be > called 'Varee's > > >Choices' but she wouldn't let me. > > >Enjoy: 'Infinity' and 'Abandoning', > > > > Amara, > > > > I was so taken by the earlier passage 'Visitors' that I thought > other > > members may appreciate it too. I hope you don't mind me posting an > > abbreviated version of your translation for the list. Here it is: > > > > > > We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects > that appear > > through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. > > > > When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a > guest. Every > > sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue > or > > body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment > before it > > falls away. > > > > There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are > favourite > > relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their > company > > enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not > welcome them. > > > > Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are > inanimate > > with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a > friend. > > When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in > the > > sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the > robber is > > there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala- > dhamma > > (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On > the > > other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close > relative or > > friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. > > > > The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers > at the > > sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the > future, while > > wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the > cause for > > future visits of relatives and friends as well. > > > > We should know the characteristics of the different moments of > consciousness > > (citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. > > [ends] > > > > May this be a conditon to for useful reflection when robbers > disguised as > > pleasant objects come visiting! > > > > Jonothan 31864 From: Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nutriment condition. Hi Nina, I was wondering if abhidhamma has anything to say about breath as a rupa, particularly as it may be related to nutriment or the life faculty. I notice that air, in its unpolluted, calm form, is not an inseparable octad, no visibility, smell. taste, resistance. Does it have nutritive essence? What conditions breath? What does breath condition? Larry 31865 From: Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Vism.XIV 71 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 71. These, firstly, are the material instances that have been handed down in the texts.(30) But in the Commentary others have been added as follows: matter as power, matter as procreation, matter as birth, matter as sickness; and, in the opinion of some, matter as torpor.31 In the first place, 'matter as torpor' is rejected as non-existent by the words: 'Surely thou art a sage enlightened, there are no hindrances in thee' (Sn. 541). As to the rest, 'matter as sickness' is included by ageing and by impermanence; 'matter as birth' by growth and continuity; 'matter as procreation' by the water element; and 'matter as power' by the air element. So taken separately not even one of these exists: this was the agreement reached. So this derived matter of twenty-four sorts and the aforesaid matter of the primary elements, which is of four sorts, together amount to twenty-eight sorts, neither more nor less. ---------------------- Note 30. In actual fact the 'heart-basis' is not in the Pitakas as such. Note 31. ' "Some" are the inmates of the Abhayagiri Monastery at Anuradhapura' (Pm.455). A long discussion on this follows in Pm., not given here. 31866 From: reesem44004 Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:28pm Subject: new to buddhism Hi everyone. First I want to thank you for allowing me to join your group. Very happy to be able to openly discuss buddhism without being looked at or treated in a weird manner. I am very new to buddhism....just started my studies about 2 months ago. I would like your input as to the books you would suggest that would be good to start out with. I have just ordered 5 books written by Alan Watts....please lend your input on good "starter" books.... Thank you! 31867 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:57pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.4.) § 6.4. MahaKassapa: One shouldn't go about surrounded, revered by a company: one gets distracted; concentration is hard to gain. Fellowship with many people is painful. Seeing this, one shouldn't approve of a company. A sage shouldn't visit families: one gets distracted; concentration is hard to gain. He's eager & greedy for flavors, whoever misses the goal that brings bliss. They know it's a bog -- the reverence & veneration of families -- a subtle arrow, hard to extract. Offerings are hard for a worthless man to let go. [Thag XVIII] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31868 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:59pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.5.) § 6.5. Renouncing violence for all living beings, harming not even a one, you would not wish for offspring, so how a companion? Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. For a sociable person there are allurements; on the heels of allurement, this pain. Seeing allurement's drawback, wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. One whose mind is enmeshed in sympathy for friends & companions, neglects the true goal. Seeing this danger in intimacy, wander alone, a rhinoceros horn... If you gain a mature companion, a fellow traveler, right-living & wise, overcoming all dangers go with him, gratified, mindful. If you don't gain a mature companion, a fellow traveler, right-living & wise, go alone like a king renouncing his kingdom, like the elephant in the Matanga wilds, his herd. We praise companionship -- yes! Those on a par, or better, should be chosen as friends. If they're not to be found, living faultlessly, wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. Seeing radiant bracelets of gold, well-made by a smith, clinking, clashing, two on an arm, wander alone, a rhinoceros horn, [Thinking:] "In the same way, if I were to live with another, there would be careless talk or abusive." Seeing this future danger, wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. Because sensual pleasures, elegant, honeyed, & charming, bewitch the mind with their manifold forms -- seeing this drawback in sensual strands -- wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. "Calamity, tumor, misfortune, disease, an arrow, a danger for me." Seeing this danger in sensual strands, wander alone, a rhinoceros horn... Avoid the evil companion disregarding the goal, intent on the out-of-tune way. Don't take as a friend someone heedless & hankering. Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. Consort with one who is learned, who maintains the Dhamma, a great & quick-witted friend. Knowing the meanings, subdue your perplexity, [then] wander alone, a rhinoceros horn... Unstartled, like a lion at sounds. Unsnared, like the wind in a net. Unsmeared, like a lotus in water: wander alone, a rhinoceros horn... At the right time consorting with the release through good will, compassion, appreciation, equanimity, unobstructed by all the world, any world, wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. Having let go of passion, aversion, delusion; having shattered the fetters; undisturbed at the ending of life, wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. People follow & associate for a motive. Friends without a motive these days are rare. They're shrewd for their own ends, & impure. Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. [Sn I.3] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31869 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:01pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.6.) § 6.6. Then a large number of monks went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they informed him: "Lord, there is a certain monk by the name of Elder who lives alone and extols the virtues of living alone." Then the Blessed One told a certain monk, "Come, monk. In my name, call the monk named Elder, saying, 'The Teacher calls you, my friend.'" "As you say, lord," the monk answered and, having gone to Ven. Elder, on arrival he said, "The Teacher calls you, my friend." "As you say, my friend," Ven. Elder replied. Then he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Elder, that you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" "Yes, lord." "But how do you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" "Lord, alone I enter the village for alms, alone I return, alone I sit withdrawn [in meditation], alone I do walking meditation. That is how I live alone and extol the virtues of living alone." "There is that way of living alone, Elder. I don't say that there isn't. Still, listen well to you how your living alone is perfected in its details, and pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," Ven. Elder responded. The Blessed One said: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One Well-gone further said this: "All-conquering, all-knowing, intelligent; with regard to all things, unadhering; all-abandoning, released in the ending of craving: him I call a man who lives alone." [SN XXI.10] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31870 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta "A Single Excellent Night" Dear Suan, Thank you very much. I like the Pali and printed it out to learn by heart. A good reminder. I like the stress on vipassana: tattha tattha vipassati. Interesting how you work with your patients. Perhaps, if you have time, I have some trouble with: anvaagameyya (anvaaggacchati: follow), manubruuhana: mind development? samhiira, sa"ngara. Thank you, Nina. op 30-03-2004 16:58 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: >> > Thank you for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Bhaddekaratta > Suttam. > 31871 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:11pm Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Philip and Rob M, Philip wrote: ------------------- > And re kids, I find that watching/hearing them is the source of mudita that arises most easily. I seem to be more judgemental when adults are involved. > --------------------- I think, (not sure) that a motive for mudita can always be found. I recall one sutta (quoted on dsg at various times) in which a monk was about to visit a hostile part of the country: Other monks asked him what he would do if the inhabitants rejected him and verbally abused him. He replied that he would be glad they had not beaten him with sticks. So, even when people behave with akusala motives, a charitable person can be happy (have mudita for them) that their accumulated tendencies were not as bad as they might have been. By the way, the monks' next question was;" What if they do beat you with sticks?" The answer was, of course; "Be glad they didn't pelt me with rocks." :-) Rob M wrote: ----------------- > If the piano recital example strikes a nerve with you, then perhaps you can pick another image that helps you prolong the state of mudita. > ----------------- Hi Rob, sorry to welcome you back with the same argument I was harping on about last time: At the moment of picking another image, there would be lobha, rather than mudita, would there not? Kind regards, Ken H 31872 From: robmoult Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:49pm Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Rob M wrote: > ----------------- > > If the piano recital example strikes a nerve with you, then > perhaps you can pick another image that helps you prolong the state > of mudita. > > ----------------- > > Hi Rob, sorry to welcome you back with the same argument I was > harping on about last time: At the moment of picking another image, > there would be lobha, rather than mudita, would there not? ===== Slightly different harping as I recall :-) Certainly there could well be lobha at the precise instant of picking another image. However, once the image has been selected, mudita could take over. A moment of lobha is not the end of the world. Everybody except Arahants have moments of craving for existence. Anagami's have the opportunity for recognizing these moments and by facing them, uprooting them (i.e. becoming Arahants), but for the rest of us, we consider craving for existence to be a "primal instinct". Consider the following fictional dialogue: Ken: Rob! You have shaved your head! Are you taking up the robes? Rob: No. I have decided to take up competitive swimming and I read in a magazine that shaving the head reduces friction and increases lap time by 0.004 seconds. Ken: Rob, you are 20kg overweight and spend less than an hour a week in the pool. I suggest that you focus on the bigger issues first and worry about 0.004 seconds when you are close to Olympic calibre. In other words, at my stage of spiritual development, I am not too worried about a little extra lobha generated when making "choices". I have much bigger problems to overcome. Imagine a novice Dhamma teacher starting his class with "The first thing we'll discuss is getting beyond words and concepts." He then thinks to himself, "Gee, where do I go from here?" The point here is that words are one kind of bridge to one level of understanding. On the path, when you reach such a level, you can leave each bridge behind. But you can't leave your bridge behind until you are beyond it. In brief, I am not yet far enough along the path to exist without some lobha popping in now and again. I volunteered to teach Abhidhamma because I thought that I could do a good job at it. Was there some lobha and mana (conceit) involved in the decision? Certainly. However, as pointed out in Vism XVII 102, akusala can be a condition for kusala arising. Metta, Rob M :-) 31873 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:21am Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Rob M, ---------------------------- RM: > Slightly different harping as I recall :-) ---------------- :-) Only slightly; it all comes down to whether we can, or cannot, control the arising of dhammas. ----------------- RM: > Certainly there could well be lobha at the precise instant of picking another image. However, once the image has been selected, mudita could take over. > ----------------------------- But why would we want to pick another image? Are we thinking that the present dhammas are not suitable for right understanding? Do we think satipatthana can arise in a moment called `the future?' ----------------------------- RM: > A moment of lobha is not the end of the world. ----------------------------- Sorry to be picky, but it is. :-) In the ultimate sense, the present five khandhas constitute the loka (the all). The present moment of consciousness is the beginning, middle and end of the world. ----------------------- RM: > Everybody except Arahants have moments of craving for existence. Anagami's have the opportunity for recognizing these moments and by facing them, uprooting them (i.e. becoming Arahants), but for the rest of us, we consider craving for existence to be a "primal instinct". ------------------- Still being picky: we aren't talking about craving for existence, are we? We are talking about craving for mudita. Anyway; if there is craving, then panna can know craving; if there is mudita, panna can know mudita. ------------------- RM: > Imagine a novice Dhamma teacher starting his class with "The first thing we'll discuss is getting beyond words and concepts." He then thinks to himself, "Gee, where do I go from here?" --------------------------- :-) No problem: he should go ahead and discuss `getting beyond words and concepts.' That's what we do at dsg all the time. The actual `getting there' is another matter – perhaps that is what you mean. -------------------------- RM: > The point here is that words are one kind of bridge to one level of understanding. On the path, when you reach such a level, you can leave each bridge behind. But you can't leave your bridge behind until you are beyond it. In brief, I am not yet far enough along the path to exist without some lobha popping in now and again. > ---------------- I'm still not clear on the point you are making. For us worldlings, lobha pops in 99.9 percent of the time. (My estimate.) Then, there's a lot of dosa and moha. But the rest is kusala :-) Fortunately for us, all arisen dhammas are potential objects for right understanding. Kind regards, Ken H 31874 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's Editions Dharmajim Hi and welcome to the list. I was not aware that MLDB had been revised. Could you give us some examples of the kind of revisions? If there's anything of particular interest it could be raised when we next write to Bhikkhu Bodhi. Jon --- dharmajim wrote: > Greetings: > > I have been participating in a Sutta study group that has been > ongoing for four years now. We have been spending a year on the > Middle Length Discourses, using Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. At > our > last meeting, one person was reading a passage, and others in the > group found that their version differed (it was Sutta 106). The > differences were intriguing. I was not aware of these kinds of > revisions. Does anyone have a reference that would compare usages > in the first and subsequent editions? Is there an interview > somewhere with Bhikkhu Bodhi regarding this? > > Thanks, > > Dharmajim 31875 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi All, > > I'd just like to make a passing comment (because of an interesting note > off-list) to say that aakaasa rupa should not be confused with the object > of jhana, the sphere of boundless space (aakaasaana~ncayatana) which is > purely conceptual as are most objects of jhana. Mahayanists sometimes > treat this as an unconditioned dhamma but this view is specifically > rejected in the Theravada texts such as the Kathavatthu. > > For more details on these two kinds of aakaasa (space), see: > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/akasa.htm > > Also, in arupa planes of existence where rupas are not experienced, > obviously akasa rupa, which depends on the kalapas of rupas to arise would > not be experienced until there were conditions (in another plane) for > rupas to be experienced again. > > Just a few comments, but really I know very little about `endless space' > as an object of the immaterial jhana. Others may add more. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Friend Sarah, BACKGROUND: I have read your past few posts to DSG on the space dhamma, which includes the conversation with Bhikkhu Bodhi, and I wanted to make a few comments. I am thus compelled because I believe that this issue is perhaps more important than it may first appear. I believe this issue goes to the heart of anatta and nibbana and perhaps wrong views concerning both. Many Buddhists mistakenly think/conceptualize, including myself at times, that nibbana is like an `emptiness' or `void' that is without limit. This view is illustrated most distinctly in the writings of Nagarjuna, perhaps influenced by Vedic Philosophy, who set forth the theory of `sunyata' (voidness) to describe nibbana and how nibbana and samsara are actually two poles of the same reality. This theory, as I have posted a few times to DSG, is flawed in my opinion. It tries to put a conceptual framework to that which cannot really be conceptualized. Nibbana is not directly comparable to the `opposite pole of samsara'. To be closer to the truth, nibbana should be viewed as the absence of samsara. This is an important difference to always keep in mind lest we (Buddhists) fall into a Vedic philosophical influence which can turn nibbana into a type of atman (eternal self). Again, to summarize my viewpoint, nibbana and samsara do not condition each other nor are they linked to each other in any way. SPACE OVERVIEW: The above underlying thought processes and emphasis, for the purpose of this post, brings me to the question of space (akasa). After some research into this question, I have concluded that the Pali Abhidhamma seems to contradict what the Buddha taught in regards to space. According to the Abhidhamma, space is of two types: limited/delimited space (paricchinnákása or paricchedákása) and unlimited/boundless space (anantákása). Additionally, according to the Abhidhamma, limited space is an ultimate reality with its own intrinsic nature and unlimited space is purely conceptual. I wish to posit that the Buddha taught the opposite of this Abhidhamma position: Limited space should be considered conceptual and unlimited space is that which is real. LIMITED SPACE: First, I wish to quote a sutta reference where the Buddha metaphorically explained the characteristics of limited space: In MN 28 "The Simile of the Elephant's Footprint (Greater)", after the Buddha gives a detailed explanation of the four elements (Earth, Air, Fire, and Water), he says about space: "Friends, just as when a space is enclosed by timber and creepers, grass, and clay, it comes to be termed `house', so too, when a space is enclosed by bones and sinews, flesh and skin, it comes to be termed `material form'. Therefore, limited space doesn't have its own characteristics. It is conceptual. Only when it is surrounded or delimited by the four elements does it then become anything. In this case of this sutta, space then becomes `material form'. In most of the Nikayas where the Buddha describes the elements (dhatu) he lists only the four elements, however, occasionally, space and consciousness are listed as elements five and six respectively. For example DN 33 "The Chanting Together" reads: "Six elements: the earth-, water-, fire-, air-, space-element (akasa- dhatu), the consciousness-element (vinnana-dhatu)." MN 140 "The Exposition of the Elements" defines the limited space element more specifically: "What, bhikkhu, is the space element? The space element may be either internal or external. What is internal space element? Whatever internally, belonging to onself, is space, spatial, and clung-to, that is, the holes of the ears, the nostrils, the door of the mouth, and that [aperture] whereby what is eaten, drunk, consumed, and tasted gets swallowed, and where it collects, and whereby it is excreted from below, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is space, spatial, and clung-to: this is called the internal space element. Now both the internal space element and the external space element are simply space element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the space element and makes the mind dispassionate towards the space element." Therefore, the internal space element is defined as the absence of anything, even air, and is also associated with the body and is clung to as being oneself. This, to me, is obviously a conceptual type of element in this case. For example, the `holes of the ears' are not an actual element (like air, fire, water, and earth) which subsequently has its own characteristics, the internal space element is not really an `element' (matter) but is rather a concept based on the other elements. However, the external space element seems to be different than this; it isn't necessarily a concept because it does seem to have its own characteristic in a cosmic sense: which is being boundless. UNLIMITED SPACE: Unlimited (Boundless Space) is cosmic space. It has no limits or boundaries. As the Buddha taught, the material universe goes through periods of expansion and contraction called `aeons'-and this expansion and probable contraction has been verified by modern cosmologists with Hubble Telescope readings and the subsequent Big Bang Theory. Beyond the edge of the material universe there is simply empty space which goes on in all directions for infinity. There is nothing that encapsulates this empty space; it is limitless. Sarah, part of the definition from "Nyanatiloka's Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" which you link reads: "Endless space is called in Atthasálini ajatákása, 'unentangled', i.e. unobstructed or empty space. It is the object of the first immaterial absorption (s. jhána), the sphere of boundless space (ákásánañcáyatana). According to Abhidhamma philosophy, endless space has no objective reality (being purely conceptual), which is indicated by the fact that it is not included in the triad of the wholesome (kusalatika), which comprises the entire reality." If the Abhidhamma does indeed state this, it appears to be a direct contradiction to what the Buddha taught. Boundless space is not merely conceptual; it does have an objective reality. Boundless space is the first of the immaterial planes of existence where beings can be reborn and perish; it isn't just an object of jhana meditation. MN 140 "The Exposition of the Elements" reads: "He understands thus: `If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time." (1276). Note 1276: MA: The sense is: If he attains the base of infinite space and should pass away while still attached to it, he would be reborn in the plane of infinite space and would live there for the full lifespan of 20,000 aeons specified for that plane. In the higher three immaterial planes the lifespan is respectively 40,000 aeons, 60,000 aeons, and 84,000 aeons. This demonstrates that infinite space isn't just a concept; it is an actual sphere of existence. I find it hard to believe that the Abhidhamma could so blatantly contradict Buddhist cosmology so I am wondering if either Nyanatiloka is mistaken or if I am misunderstanding the given definition. Sarah, if you or anyone has further clarification of boundless space, according to the Abhidhamma, I would appreciate it. Y. KARUNADASA: As to the question of space and if it is a dhamma or a concept, Y. Karunadasa in "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma Perspective" writes: "As two pannattis, another important characteristic of time and space is that they cannot be described either as sankhata (conditioned) or as asankhata (unconditioned), for to be so described they do not possess their own-nature.79 Since the two terms, sankhata and asankhata, represent the totality of conditioned and unconditioned existence, the description of time and space as neither conditioned nor unconditioned is another way of referring to their nonexistence as real and ultimate existents. Again, unlike the dhammas, time and space as pannattis are not delimited by rise and fall (udayabbaya- paricchnina).80 Such a situation is true only of dhammas, because they come into being having been not (ahutva sambhonti) and cease to exist after having been (hutva pativenti).81 In contrast, time and space have no individual essence to be manifested in the three instants of arising (uppada)' presence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga).82 Thus, since they have no existence marked by the three instantaneous phases - the nascent, static, and cessant - temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not apply to them." http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm Here, Y. Karunadasa is basically arguing that space is only a concept. As I have demonstated, I believe that the Buddha taught that space can be viewed as both a concept and as an objective reality; therefore, though I respect the scholarship of Karunadasa, I believe that he is contradicting the Buddha as well as the Pali Abhidhamma. He argues that space is not conditioned and that it doesn't rise and fall, therefore it can only be considered a concept. Again, the Buddha listed space and consciousness as actual elements (dhatu). However, space and consciousness are different than the other elements because they don't exist in the three stages: rising, persisting, and perishing. Space and consciousness exist in only two stages: bounded and unbounded. These two stages do, however, make them conditioned and elements of samsara. To follow the argument of Karunadasa to its logical conclusion: if space is just a concept than consciousness would also have to be considered just a concept. Since this is an absurd conclusion, obviously Karunadasa is mistaken in this regard. CONCLUSION: So, why is all of this important? To me it is important because better understanding space allows one to better understand nibbana as the ultimate goal of Buddhism. Unlimited space, unlimited consciousness, and nothingness are not nibbana. Nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma (this is where I do very much agree with the Abhidhamma). To quote "Vedanta and Buddhism:A Comparative Study", edited by Helmuth Von Glasenapp: "This theory explains the world through the causal co-operation of a multitude of transitory factors (dharma), arising in mutual functional dependence. This theory maintains that the entire process of liberation consists in the tranquilization of these incessantly arising and disappearing factors. For that process of liberation however, is required, apart from moral restraint (sila) and meditative concentration (samadhi), the insight (prajna) that all conditioned factors of existence (samskara) are transitory, without a permanent independent existence, and therefore subject to grief and suffering. The Nirvana which the saint experiences already in this life, and which he enters for ever after death, is certainly a reality (dharma), but as it neither arises nor vanishes, it is not subject to suffering, and is thereby distinguished from all conditioned realities. Nirvana being a dharma, is likewise anatta, just as the transitory, conditioned dharmas of the Samsara which, as caused by volitions (that is, karma-producing energies (samskara)), are themselves also called samskara." Metta, James 31876 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_6._Seclusion(§_6.6.) Hi Victor When you quote this sutta and the sutta on a Single excellent night, there is much similarity here, let us recap Sutta of a single excellent night <> the in this sutta you quote The Blessed One said: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." on note 1212, MA: He should comtemplate each presently arisen state, just where it has arisen, by way of seven comtemplation of insight (insight into impermanece, suffering, non-self, disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, relinquishment) Ken O 31877 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:00am Subject: Fwd: Re: Formal meditation Dear Dhamma Friends, Here I forward a message from DSList by Amara Chayabongse. The topic was started by Christine whether formal sitting or walking meditation is needed or not. Even though there is no answer in this message, I rate this message worths forwarded to you all as there mention about jhana and panna. That is the hot topic currently debating at many sites of Buddhism discussion. Dry method, wet method, Jhana needed or not and so on. To the worst some assume that ..Jhana is higher than kama. In Jhana 2nd is higher than 1st and so on and jhana rises from 1st to 8th jhana. And beyond 8th jhana is 9th jhana or nibbana. Achieving all jhana will automatically cause arising of insight and so on.... This is false. This is untrue. This is not righteous. Please enjoy Amara's post below. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In DSList@yahoogroups.com, "Amara" wrote: --- In DSList@yahoogroups.com, "Marlon McCall" wrote: > Dear Christine > > I have found the talks given by Ven. Acariya Maha Boowa (Bhikkhu > Ñanasampanno Maha Thera)while visiting the Dhammapadipa Vihara in > London in June, 1974 most interesting.Especially these two questions > that he was asked. > > > Q5 W2: What are some of the benefits of meditation? > > A: One become calm. The heart is cool, peaceful, completely rational > and self-controlled. One does not do anything which follows one's > desires and which is contrary to reason. One will always consider > what is good and what is bad, both for oneself and others. It makes > one become a person who does not feel the Dukkha of gloominess > always in his heart. The heart will have a basic [6] principle and > will not drift about aimlessly as it used to. It is like a man who > has a job as his basic principle or who has food and a house to live > in and depend on. Such a person is not troubled. > > Hi, Thank you for the excellent reminders. I hope you don't mind a few comments, on this last sentence. Firstly the Buddha did call the jhana practices the 'pleasant abidings in the here and now' which is what a lot of people need when the senses and thoughts trouble them too much, or as an alternative to sleep. But once the jhana ends, all the other senses operate again normally and since one still has all the kilesas there, no attenuation at all since only panna can attenuate and ultimately attenuate kilesas, even the anusaya [latent, dormant] ones, we are more or less as we were before the resting period, and might even have greater attachment to our achievements, since not all can achieve kusala jhana of great bliss while we can. One can even cultivate this to the highest degree and be able to attain the abhinnas to do miracles, and become so over confident in our powers we may think we had attained arahantship and convince people that we had, by performing miracles for them, as Devadatta, who attained all the abhinnas, did to Ajatasatru [sp?], and even tried to murder the Buddha to take over control of the Sangha. We can see that if he had the panna of satipatthana he would have known that there can be no real control over anything. This is why the Buddha taught that satipatthana is the only way to the eightfold path of nibbana. > Q7 M3: Must we practice meditation to get a balance? > > A: Practice meditation and see for yourself what is lacking. One > should then develop the Five Indriya (faculties): Saddha (faith or > confidence), Viriya (energy), Sati (mindfulness), Samadhi > (concentration), and Pañña (wisdom) within oneself. Panna leads to all kusala automatically. For example, one can see for oneself that even panna at the theoretic level can lead to more saddha, at least in my own case. The more I study the dhamma, the more confidence I have in the Buddha that whatever he teaches, no matter how incredible and miraculous they sound, is more likely to be true, since what is in my capacity to experience right now 'prove' to be true. Having discovered amazing new things through his teachings, we would like to know more, to see what he would say in other dilemmas in our lives. When we realize all are just different aspects of namadhamma and rupadhamma, over and over, the awareness of things as they really are would develop even more, to prove things for our selves, there would be less dissipation following the connotations and more experiencing, examination of realities as they really are, more attention on the arammana experienced, more focus. Experiencing the different characteristics of realities through the pancadvara and the manodvara would increase our knowledge of how they really are, each reality so different from the others, so rapidly arising and falling away, impermanent, changing, uncontrollable, not the self in the least. Anumodana with your studies, Amara > When light falls on the surface of an object, the top of that object > is illuminated while its underside is in shadow and dark. Wisdom is > like the light which can truly penetrate, but what it penetrates is > the Kilesas which cover the heart, so that there is not any shadow > in the heart where Kilesas can hide or conceal themselves. This > means that wisdom is powerful and able to investigate circumspectly > throughout the darkness of all the Kilesas with ease and confidence > until the Citta has reached ultimate Vimutti (Liberation). > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/boowa/london.html > > Rgds > Marlon > > > > --- In DSList@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Is it possible to be following the Lord Buddha's teachings if one > > never engages in formal periods of sitting or walking meditation? > > Can't one hear and carefully reflect on the Teachings, practise > in > > accordance with them, keeping company with others with the same > > inclination, without formal meditation? Is study and sila enough > to > > achieve enlightenment? > > How would formal meditation make any difference? > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- End forwarded message --- 31878 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Robber Guests (was Re: new pages Hi Philip op 31-03-2004 00:31 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > So does this mean that kusala vipaka that arises from a wholesome > deed gives rise in turn to akusala dhamma? N: Not necessarily. But often there is likely to be clinging to pleasant objects. PH:Could panna possibly play > a role in preventing an automatic arising of akusala dhamma from a > pleasant object? N: Yes, for sure. Right understanding developed in vipassana is the answer. All dhammas should be known as they are, be they pleasant, unpleasant, kusala, akusala. But clinging cannot be eradicated immediately. First wrong view should be eradicated. Thus, instead of thinking, I must get rid of akusala, it is best to develop more understanding of any reality that appears. Seeing appears all the time, and it can be object of mindfulness. So is colour. On account of what is seen clinging is likely to arise, and then the object of sati and panna is clinging. It does not matter. Nina. 31879 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:56am Subject: D.O. Formations. Dependent Origination. Formations. As Ken O quoted from Vis. 63: N: The Vis. explains in short the 24 classes of conditions and then explains how ignorance is a condition for the formation of merit in two ways and for the formation of demerit in many ways. We read (102) :²ignorance is a condition as object-condition for formations of merit in the sense-sphere at the time of comprehending [by means of insight] ignorance as liable to destruction and fall....² N: Ignorance is a reality and it can be object of insight. It can be realized as impermanent. Understanding is kusala, but when it is not lokuttara it does not lead out of the cycle. There is still a long way to go. We read: ² ...and likewise for those of the fine-material sphere at the time of knowing a confused mind by means of direct-knowledge consciousness [through penetrating others¹ minds and so on].² N: Thus also for those who have attained jhåna ignorance can be object-condition for kusala. The Vis then explains about decisive support-condition (upanissaya-paccaya) : in order to overcome ignorance one performs kusala, or develops jhåna. N: As we also read in the Patthana, akusala can be a condition for kusala. One sees the danger of ignorance and all akusala conditioned by it. This causes one to perform kusala. We then read: ³Likewise in one who effects that merit while aspiring for the delight of sense-sphere becoming and fine-material becoming, because he is confused by ignorance.² N: Because of our accumulated ignorance we perform kusala with the aim to have a happy destiny, but then there will not be an end to the cycle. Or, we perform kusala for other selfish motives, we want gain or honour. Long ago A. Sujin gave me a short reminder of D.O. asking me: ³Do you want to accumulate or do you want to eradicate?² This time when we were in Bgk A. Sujin asked us several times: ³Do you perform kusala for your own sake?² I answered at first that when helping others, I think of other people. But she kept on saying, it is for your own sake. I came, after more reflection, to the conclusion that deep in ourselves there is such a notion. We cannot yet let go of self-love, it is deep-seated and we do not like to see it. Ignorance cannot see it, only right understanding can. It is urgent to develop right understanding of akusala, of kusala, of all realities. I quote from a post of Rob K: N: Ignorance conceals also at this very moment the true nature of seeing, visible object, eyesense, of all namas and rupas. Hence we keep on clinging to self, and also to an idea of my kusala. It seems now that seeing lasts, we do not see its falling away. It seems that we see a lasting person, whereas in reality it is only visible object that is there for a moment and then no more. We should remember the momentary death of each dhamma that appears, but we are blinded by ignorance. Rob K: The commentary to the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield from PTS)defines it (p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]. Rob K: N: I believe we have to keep this in mind from the very beginning of our study, no matter what link we are studying. Otherwise it is impossible to understand the D.O. We shall drown in the sea of concepts and terms. The Vis explains (103) that ignorance conditions the formation of demerit in many ways: as rootcause, by way of conascence. At the moment of akusala citta, ignorance is always present as root condition. Ignorance is also object-condition and decisive support-condition for akusala. Ignorance is decisive-support-condition for the formation of the imperturbable (arupa-jhana). **** Nina. 31880 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Robber Guests Connie Thanks very much for this and your more recent message with the sutta quote. Neither are the passage I had in mind, but both are excellent passages/metaphors to ponder on. In the passage below I especially liked: > Addressing a lay person, and commenting on a verse > describing the > behavior of a sage who has abandoned home and society, he > interprets > "home" as the khandhas and "society" as sense impressions. I'm still keeping an eye out myself and hoping to fined it! Jon --- connie wrote: > Hi Jon, Phil, Mike, All ~ > It might be from Ven. Maha Kaccana's Mahaniddesa.... see > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html > section IV. Atthaka Vagga: > <1. Although these poems were originally composed for an audience > of > wandering, homeless monks, they offer valuable lessons for lay > people as > well. Even the passages referring directly to the homeless life can > be > read as symbolic of a state of mind. Ven. Maha Kaccana's > commentary, > mentioned above, shows that this has been done ever since canonical > times. Addressing a lay person, and commenting on a verse > describing the > behavior of a sage who has abandoned home and society, he > interprets > "home" as the khandhas and "society" as sense impressions. Thus in > his > hands the verse develops an internal meaning that lay people can > apply > to their lives without necessarily leaving their external home and > society. Other verses in the poems can be interpreted in similar > ways. > > peace, > connie 31881 From: dharmajim Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:21pm Subject: Xu Yongjian on the Natural Sage Good Friends: Xu Yongjian was a Confucian Sage who lived from 1529 to 1612. He says the following: "The process of natural creation gives life to plants and animals. This is all fixed and cannot be altered. Humans have ears and eyes and mouth and nose. These come with birth by the process of natural creation: it is the same as with plants and animals, there is no difference. People hope to be worthy, they hope to be sages: these hopes come from mankind's own spontaneous wishes. From this we can see that the process of natural creation has been very generous with mankind. Can mankind fail to respect this and live up to Heaven's intent? Comment: I love this passage. It emphasizes the naturalness of the Sage and at the same time instills a certain sense of gratitude for existence for this great gift of the realized neart that lies within all human beings. Since all this has been given to us humans, even though we do not particularly deserve it, we must realize that it is a kind of duty, as a human, to treasure this gift, nourish this gift, bring it to fruition, not only for ourselves, but as a way of giving thanks to creation. Best wishes, Dharmajim 31882 From: dharmajim Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:28pm Subject: Re: Xu Yongjian on the Natural Sage Yikes!!! My apologies. This post was inadvertently posted to the Dhammastudy group. Not appropriate here. More mindfulness is needed. Sorry for the Confucian confusion. Dharmajim --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dharmajim" wrote: > Good Friends: > > Xu Yongjian was a Confucian Sage who lived from 1529 to 1612. He > says the following: > > "The process of natural creation gives life to plants and animals. > This is all fixed and cannot be altered. Humans have ears and eyes > and mouth and nose. These come with birth by the process of natural > creation: it is the same as with plants and animals, there is no > difference. People hope to be worthy, they hope to be sages: these > hopes come from mankind's own spontaneous wishes. From this we can > see that the process of natural creation has been very generous with > mankind. Can mankind fail to respect this and live up to Heaven's > intent? > > Comment: I love this passage. It emphasizes the naturalness of the > Sage and at the same time instills a certain sense of gratitude for > existence for this great gift of the realized neart that lies within > all human beings. Since all this has been given to us humans, even > though we do not particularly deserve it, we must realize that it is > a kind of duty, as a human, to treasure this gift, nourish this gift, > bring it to fruition, not only for ourselves, but as a way of giving > thanks to creation. > > Best wishes, > > Dharmajim 31883 From: Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Vism.XVII 62: "How can it be known that these formations have ignorance as their condition? -- By the fact that they exist when ignorance exists..." Hi all, Another way to understand this is that wholesome and unwholesome volitional consciousnesses only make sense as "me" and "my" consciousnesses. Desire and generosity only make sense as an appropriation of self view. "Clinging" (upadana) is precisely self view, aka ignorance. There is no desire or generosity without self view. Desire and generosity are both clinging ("intensified desire"). When desire arises it is "I" who desires. Find this "I"! Look! Look! Larry 31884 From: Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Hi all, One more dimension of ignorance: Vism.XVII 275: "Sorrow, grief, and despair are inseparable from ignorance; and lamentation is found in one who is deluded. So, firstly, when these three are established, ignorance is established..." L: A sense of loss and neediness is part of the basic ground of ignorance that conditions emotional reactions (formations). Desire always fails. Once we learn this, understanding (panna) has an entry. Larry 31885 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_6._Seclusion(§_6.6.) Hi Ken O & Victor, Talk on Seclusion is a favourite of mine as Victor knows. Hope you don’t mind if I requote from old posts and add a little more perhaps: ..... Ken O: >When you quote this sutta and the sutta on a Single excellent night,there is much similarity here, let us recap Sutta of a single excellent night <> then in this sutta you quote The Blessed One said: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." on note 1212, MA: He should comtemplate each presently arisen state, just where it has arisen, by way of seven comtemplation of insight (insight intoimpermanece, suffering, non-self, disenchantment, dispassion,cessation, relinquishment) ****** Sarah: >From the Commentary to the Sammanaphala Sutta on the topic of forest dwelling: ..... "He goes taking all his minimal eight requisites, carrying them on his body. He has no attachment or bondage to "my monastery, my cell, my attendant." He is like an arrow released from the bow or like an elephant in rut which has left the herd. Using whatever dwelling he likes - a jungle thicket, the foot of a tree, a wooded slope -- he stands alone and sits alone; in all postures, he is alone, without a companion. Thus he conducts himself in a manner similar to that of the rhinoceros, as explained (in the Rhinoceros Sutta): At home in the four quarters of the world, harbouring no aversion in one’s heart, content with anything one gets, bearing all hardships undismayed - one should walk alone like the rhinoceros. (Sn v 42)" ***** S: In the sutta itself in this section under contentment, it says: "Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden, in the same way a bhikkhu is content with robes to protect his body and almsfood to sustain his belly; wherever he goes he sets out taking only (his requisites) along with him. In this way, great king, the bhikkhu is content". ..... S; We then read about how forest dwelling alone was only appropriate for those with the right ‘prerequisites’. We often read in the suttas about groups of bhikkhus gathered together, entered a village for alms together and so on. In the Thera Sutta (11, 282 in Samyutta Nikaya), it seems a number of bhikkhus thought it was strange for Thera to live alone, go for alms alone, return alone, sit and walk alone and so they raised the issue with the Buddha. The Buddha summons Thera who confirms he lives and follows all these activities alone and also praises living alone. The Buddha doesn’t disagree, but says (B.Bodhi transl., p721): "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir." "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, Liberated in the destruction of craving: I call that person ‘one who dwells alone.’ "** ..... Footnotes to Thera Sutta (B.Bodhi trans): *Commentary "(Spk): "The past is said to be abandoned (pahina.m) by the abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishig of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the future. **"(Spk): ‘All-conqueror’(sbbaabhibhu.m): one who abides having overcome all aggregates, sense bases, and elements, and the three kinds of existence. ‘Unsullied’(anupalitta.m, or "unstuck") among hose very things by the paste (lepa) of craving and views. "Liberated in the destruction of craving (ta.nhakkhaye vimutta.m): liberated in Nibbana, called the destruction of craving by way of the liberation that takes this as its object." ***** S: So there are the two meanings of 'living alone'.For some by inclination or natural tendency (pakati or bokati in Thai)they will live alone in the first sense like Thera. However, we all have to learn to live alone without 'desire and lust' regardless of whether we're in the forest or the village, alone or with others. From ~Naa,nananda’s comments (‘Ideal Solitude’, wheel 188): “We saw above how the Theranamo Sutta expounds the true ideal of solitude (ekaviharo) as against the popular and commonplace concept of solitude. The true ideal is depicted as a ‘solitude’ of mind, gained by giving up everything belonging to the past and the future and by disciplining well the desire and lust for one’s present modes of personality. “The concluding verse makes it clear that the ideal lone-dweller is unsoiled as to all phenomena and is ‘well released, renouncing all’. This reminds us of the term ‘upadhiviveka’ (detachment from all assets or substrata) denoting Nibbana, which is the highest mental solitude (citta viveka, citta vuupakaasa)......”. ***** S: Of course, this is very similar to the Migajala Sutta which I like to quote and reflect on a lot. Only by understanding the sounds, odours, tactile objects, menta phenomena and other namas and rupas discussed can one’s partner -- craving -- be abandoned, allowing one to live alone: ***** ‘There are, Migajala, sounds cognizable by the ear..odours cognizable by the nose..tastes cognizable by the tongue..tactile objects cognizable by the body..mental phenomena cognizable by the mind that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them..he is called alone dweller. ‘Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and felmale lay follower, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore his is called a lone dweller." (SN, Bk of 6 Sense Bases.63, B.Bodhi trans) ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 31886 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_6._Seclusion(§_6.4.) Hi Victor & All, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > § 6.4. > MahaKassapa: > One shouldn't go about > surrounded, revered > by a company: > one gets distracted; > concentration > is hard to gain. > Fellowship with many people > is painful. > Seeing this, > one shouldn't approve > of a company. <...> > [Thag XVIII] ..... From an earlier post; Sarah: > Also in MN 32, Mahagosinga Sutta, we read the discussion between the leading disciples, including Ven Sariputta, Maha Mogallana, Maha Kassapa and Ven Ananda, about ‘what kind of bhikkhu could illuminate the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood’. Maha Kassapa praises forest dwelling, being of few wishes, content, secluded, energetic, attaining virtue, concentration and wisdom. Mogallana praises discussion between two bhikkhus on abhidhamma and the Sariputta praises ‘mastery over the mind’. When the conversation is repeated to the Buddha, he says they have all spoken well, ‘each in his own way’. He then adds that the monk resolved not to leave his sitting position until his ‘mind is liberated from the taints’ illuminates the wood. We know MahaKassapa led an exemplary life, aloof from society, wearing rag robes and content with little until he died at 120 yrs old, setting an example for other monks. We know he was always guided by compassion for monks and lay people, concerned for the preservation of the Teachings and was opposed to any minor rules being left out at the First Council so as not to discourage lay supporters. ..... S: In the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS, Classification of the Jhanas,1799f) there is some detail about all the terms used in the descriptions such as ‘secluded’,’forest’, ‘tree root’, ‘jungle thicket’ and so on. Under ‘vivitta.m (‘secluded’) we read that forest dwelling is not for everyone: ..... “What does he show by vivitta.m (‘secluded’)? He shows a suitable abode as a place of training for a course of practice (yoga) for that bhikkhu. For a forest dwelling is appropriate for one who has within him a certain number of qualities. But for one in whom they are not, it is inappropriate, since for such a one dwelling in the forest is like the jungle dwelling of black monkeys, bears, hyenas, leopards, deer and so on. Why? Because of having entered it on account of a need (cf Mi 19). For there is no benefit based on a forest dwelling at all for him. He fouls both forest dwelling and the forest dwellers and he creates distrust in the dispensation. But it is appropriate only for one in whom there are a certain number of qualities. For in a forest dwelling he establishes insight, reaches Arahatship and attains complete extinction; he glorifies all forest dwellings, he washes the head of forest dwellers and he extends the whole dispensation. That is why the Master said: ‘He frequents a secluded abode’ and so on, showing a suitable abode as a place of training for a course of practice for such a bhikkhu.” ...... S: I think the phrase ‘for such a bhikkhu’ is important. We have to know our own ‘qualities’ and what is ‘appropriate’. In the MN sutta referred to (MN 19, Dvedhavitakka Sutta, transl by B.Bodhi), appropriately for other current discussions, it is about wrong and right thought (vitakka) and it discusses the 3 kinds of Right Thought - of renunciation, non-ill will and non-cruelty. It discusses the point about accumulating wholesome states after clearly distinguishing between kusala (wholesome) and akusala (unwholesome) states when they arise. This clear knowledge of the distinction was developed whilst he was an ‘unenlightened Bodhsatta’: “Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of renunciation, he has abandoned the thought of sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of non-ill will...upon thoughts of non-cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of cruelty to cultivate the thought of non-cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of non-cruelty.” This was given in contrast to accumulating thoughts of sensual desire, ill-will and cruelty And then in the sutta we read the example that I believe the commentary above was referring to. Two men might approach a marsh in a wooded area where there is a herd of deer. The first man means harm, closes off the safe path, sets up a decoy and dummy and the deer come to disaster. The second man wishes to protect them, closes off the false path, removes the decoy and the deer come to ‘fulfilment’. In the simile, the marsh represents sensual pleasures, the deer represent beings. The man who means harm represents Mara. The false path represents the wrong eightfold path, i.e wrong view, wrong intention etc. The decoy represents delight and lust and the dummy, ignorance. The man desiring their good is the Tathagata, the safe path is the Noble Eightfold path and so on. “So, bhikkhus, the safe and good path that leads to happiness has been reopened by me, the wrong path has been closed off, the decoy removed, the dummy destroyed....” ..... S: In other words, as I understand, it is not the forest or marsh in the wooded area that is of itself significant, but the intentions, ‘need’ or sincerity of purpose and understanding whilst dwelling there according to conditions and habitual inclinations. Sarah ====== 31887 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_6._Seclusion(§_6.5.) Hi Victor & All, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > § 6.5. > Renouncing violence > for all living beings, > harming not even a one, > you would not wish for offspring, > so how a companion? > Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. > For a sociable person > there are allurements; > on the heels of allurement, this pain. > Seeing allurement's drawback, > wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. <....> > Having let go of passion, > aversion, > delusion; > having shattered the fetters; > undisturbed at the ending of life, > wander alone, a rhinoceros horn. <...>> [Sn I.3] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion Please also see some quotes and comments I gave before about living alone in the forest: ***** A friend wrote: “Anyway, I am assuming that by "concentrate" "dwelling in jhana" is meant. The jhanas are the highest, greatest kusala. If you are able, why do anything else? To sit cross legged with a next to empty mind, is there a better example to follow?” ..... Sarah: “If you are able, why do anything else?” is a good question. Side-stepping what is the ‘greatest kusala’ for now and what is the ‘better example’, I think it’s correct to say that when it comes to the jhanas and highly developed samatha, that certain conditions are essential as elaborated in the Visuddhimagga and elsewhere. There is also no doubt at all about the value of the bhikkhu’s lifestyle and contentment with little as shown by the Buddha and the great arahants such as MahaKassapa. In the commentary to the Samannaphala Sutta (Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship, B.Bodhi transl,p138f) under ‘Contentment’(which follows the sections on ‘Restraint of the Sense Faculties’ and ‘Mindfulness and Clear Comprehension’, we read: ..... “He goes taking all his minimal eight requisites, carrying them on his body. He has no attachment or bondage to “my monastery, my cell, my attendant.” He is like an arrow released from the bow or like an elephant in rut which has left the herd. Using whatever dwelling he likes - a jungle thicket, the foot of a tree, a wooded slope -- he stands alone and sits alone; in all postures, he is alone, without a companion. Thus he conducts himself in a manner similar to that of the rhinoceros, as explained (in the Rhinoceros Sutta): At home in the four quarters of the world, harbouring no aversion in one’s heart, content with anything one gets, bearing all hardships undismayed - one should walk alone like the rhinoceros. (Sn v 42)” ***** S: In the sutta itself in this section under contentment, it says: “Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden, in the same way a bhikkhu is content with robes to protect his body and almsfood to sustain his belly; wherever he goes he sets out taking only (his requisites) along with him. In this way, great king, the bhikkhu is content”. ..... S: Such passages are very inspiring. There have been discussions recently on whether such passages are descriptive or prescriptive. If we were to shed all belongings like a bird and set out for the jungle thickets, would it be helpful for the development of jhana and vipassana? I don’t think so, because the necessary ‘requisites’ are not in place. What we read here and in the earlier suttas that others gave is a description of the natural way of living for those with highly developed wholesome qualities already. There is already ‘restraint of the sense faculties’, highly developed sila and sati sampajanna, even if the vipassana nanas have not yet been realized. S: In the Samannaphala sutta, after the section on contentment, we read the section under the ‘Abandoning of the Hindrances’(niivara.nappahaana)just before the section on the jhanas. We read: “Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and clear comprehension, and this noble contentment, he resorts to a secluded dwelling - a forest, the foot of a tree.........crosses his legs....mindfulness before him”. In the commentary to the first part of this passage, we read: ..... “What does the Buddha show by this? He shows the achievment of the requisites for living in the forest. For one who lacks these four requisites does not succeed in his forest life. He would fall under the same category as animals or forest wanderers. The deities residing in the forest would think, “what is the use of living in the forest for such and evil bhikkhu?” They would make frightful sounds, strike him on the head with their hands, and make him flee. A bad reputation would also spread about concerning him; “Such and such a bhikkhu, having entered the forest, did this and that evil deed.” But one who has achieved these four requisties succeeds in his forest life. Reviewing his own moral discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish, and he arouses rapture.......” ***************** S: So how many can "succeed in forest life?" As I mentioned, these are just a few details from the section prior to the one about the jhanas, starting with access concentration. The passage here about the necessary requisites for forest life is similar to the one I quoted from the Sammohavinodani. We also read in the commentary to the ‘Metta’ discourse about how disturbed the bhikkhus were before having developed the appropriate‘protections’ of sense restraint and highly developed samatha with metta as object. Back to the discussions on kusala and akusala, we can also see, I think, how essential it is to ‘see any stain or blemish’ in the development of samatha or vipassana, even though the understanding and role of the hindrances are different. I look forward to further comments. Sarah ====== 31888 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_6._Seclusion(§_6.3.) Hi Victor, More to come;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi all, > > Talk on seclusion is one of the ten topics of [proper] > conversation. I find the passage a good reminder. <...> > > "It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone > > forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get > > engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about > > kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things > exist > > or not. > > > > "There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? > > Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non- > entanglement, > > on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on > > discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. > > These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage > > repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine > > even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful -- to say nothing of > the > > wanderers of other sects." > > > > > > [AN X.69] > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion ...... From Udana commentary (PTS Masefield transl, Meghiya chapter, 231): “ ‘Talk on seclusion (pavivekakathaa)’: in this connection there are three (types of) separation (vivekaa), vis. physical separation, mental separation, and substrate separation. As to these, it is separate residence, after abandoning socialising in groups, where all bodily postures, all functions, are concerned, viz. ‘He travels alone, stands alone, sits alone, makes his bed alone, enters the village in search of alms alone, returns alone, sets out alone, practices walking up and down alone, wanders alone, dwells alone’ (Nd 26), that is known as ‘physical separation’, whereas it is the eight attainments that are known as ‘mental separation’, nibbaana that is known as ‘substrate separation’. For this is said: ‘And physical separation is for those with physical aloofness, for those with delight in rununciation; mental separation is for those whose heart are completely pure, for those who have reached the highest cleansing; whilst substrate separation is for those individuals who are without substrate, for those who are gone to that devoid of formations’ (Nd 27). This same separation (viveko) is ‘seclusion’ (paviveko), ‘talk on seclusion’ being talk conncected with seclusion.” ***** In summary, As quoted before: 1.From Nyantiloka dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_v.htm * viveka 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: * (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects; * (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from sensuous things; * (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi-viveka). In the description of the 1st absorption, * the words "detached from sensuous things" (vivicc' eva kámehi) refer, according to Vis.M. IV, to 'bodily detachment'; * the words "detached from karmically unwholesome things" (vivicca akusalehi dhammehi) refer to 'mental detachment'; * the words "born of detachment" (vivekaja), to the absence of the 5 hindrances. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * viveka-sukha 'happiness of detachment', or aloofness (s. prec). "Whoso is addicted to society and worldly bustle, he will not partake of the happiness of renunciation, detachment, peace and enlightenment" (A.VII.86). ========================================================================== S: We also read of a fivefold classification as in this quote: 2. From Sammohavinodani, Comy to Dhammasangani, PTS, (1544): on seclusion as in “he develops the mindfulness awakening factor which is dependent on seclusion”: “Vivekanissita.m (“dependent on seclusion”) = viveke nissita.m. Seclusion is secludedness; it is fivefold, namely seclusion through substitution of opposites (tada”ngaviveka), through suppression (vikkhambhana), cutting off (samuccheda), tranquillisation (pa.tipasaddhi) and renunciation (nissara.na). “Herein, seclusion through substitution of opposites is insight; seclusion through suppression is the eight attainments; seclusion through cutting off is the path; seclusion through tranquillisation is fruition; seclusion through renunciation is nibbana, which has renounced all signs. Thus “dependent on seclusion” is dependent on this fivefold seclusion......” ------------------------------------------------------------------------ S: Also more discussion from an earlier post on the ultimate meaning of seclusion: Ray: > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One > Well-gone further > said this: > > "All-conquering, > all-knowing, intelligent; > with regard to all things, > unadhering; > all-abandoning, > released in the ending of craving: > him I call > a man who lives > alone." > Kom: >This is an excellent point on the meaning of solitude (viveka). Vivekha ultimately means solitude from kilesa, not just living by oneself, or living in tranquil meditation all the time. Monks (as well as the laypersons) can be said to be living alone (appropriate to their level of panna) even >without living by themselves. ***** S>I’m also reminded of a fine verse Mike posted a week or so ago (to Icaro): Mike: > Blissful is passionlessness in the world, > The overcoming of sensual desires; > But the abolition of the conceit I am -- > That is truly the supreme bliss. > > Udana II, 1 S: Here is Masefield’s less lyrical but more detailed translation: “Separation is bliss for the one who is satisfied, whose Dhamma has been heard, who beholds. Harmlessness is bliss, that control with respect to living beings in this world. Freedom from lust where this world is concerned is bliss, that transcendence of sense-desires. The driving out of the ‘I am’ conceit - this is indeed the highest bliss.” This was uttered by the Buddha soon after his seven day experiencing of the ‘bliss of liberation’ (vimuttisukhapa.tisa.mvedi) to the brahmin youth. Notes from the Comy: ***** “Separation is bliss (sukho viveko)”; substrate spearation, reckoned as nibbana, is bliss. “For the one who is satisfied (tu.t.thassa)”: for the one who is satisfied by way of contentedness associated with the knowledge associated with the four paths....... “The driving out of the ‘I am’ conceit (asmimaanassa yo vinaya)”: by this means, moreover, it is arahantship that is talked about. For arahantship is spoken of as ‘the driving out, by way of tranquillization, of the ‘I am’ conceit”; and there is known no bliss beyond this, for which reason he said “This is indeed the highest bliss”. So did he bring that teaching to a climax by way of arahantship. ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 31889 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_6._Seclusion(§_6.1.,_§_6.2.) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > § 6.1. <...> > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > > > How blissful it is, for one who has nothing > who has mastered the Dhamma, > is learned. > See how they suffer, those who have something, > people bound in body > with people. > > [Ud II.5] > <....> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion .... Nina also wrote in an earlier message; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28184 Nina> Perfection of Clear Vision (vijja) and Deliverance (vimutti). We read in the anapanasati sutta (transl by ven. Nyanatiloka): The same is stated about the other enlightenment factors With regard to the word seclusion (viveka), which is seclusion from defilements, we read about the meaning in the Co to the 'Root of Existence' (Mulapariyaya sutta, as tr. by Ven. Bodhi)that there are five kinds of seclusion, or abandoning: by substitution of opposite factors(tadanga pahana), by suppression (in jhana), by eradication (by the four paths), by tranquillization ( by the four fruitions) and by escape (nibbana). As regards abandoning by substitution of opposite factors (tadanga pahana), this occurs during the development of the stages of insight. The personality view is abandoned by the first stage of insight: defining nama and rupa, distinquishing their different characteristics, and by each of the higher stages there is abandoning by opposite factors. As to the words of the sutta, fading away (viraga) and cessation (nirodha), thes have the same meaning as seclusion, viveka. As to the words, ?resulting in relinquishment, as the Visuddhimagga VIII, 236) explained, this is relinquishment as giving up (of defilements) and as entering into nibbana. We read: we read that also the path is called both relinquishment as giving up and relinquishment as entering into. *** Nina S: Also see Nina’s post on the Migajaala sutta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19674 Metta, Sarah ====== 31890 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for this message. Please do add more. .... Are you sure?;-) I'll give you a break after this one. ..... S: > > The same Gotami sutta is also quoted and elaborated on in the > > Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller) under Classification of the Jhanas, > 1595f. > > Let me give a small part of it: > [snip] > > ..... S: I’ll get back to the quote from Dispeller when I have time;-) Meanwhile, one last extract from a post on seclusion and why I think it’s important to understand the deeper meaning of living alone with sati and pa~n~naa wherever we may find ourselves. This is also the post I was referred to in passing in my note to Howard on the Meghiya Sutta again. Note the third condition for the development of insight is given as ‘Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states’ including all the same topics listed in the AN sutta, such as seclusion: ***** A friend wrote: >...... but EVERYONE can benefit from > (more) seclusion. Really it's not dangerous. > Numerous passages in the suttas with arhats and > ariya praising and encouraging solitude. ..... Sarah: >You may be right,...., but increasingly I check the fine print;-) I laugh now when I think about the months I spent secluded in a Sri Lankan forest temple, not associating with anyone, earnestly trying to cultivate mindfulness and concentration, pursuing all my actions in slow motion and causing a lot of anxiety to others;-) I think my experiences were mild compared to others’, but could anyone have persuaded me in advance that this was wrong practice? I’m not sure. Were those who resorted to the forest in the Buddha’s time necessarily all on the right track? Was everyone told to live a secluded life in the first instance? <...> (Ud4, Meghiya,1) S: In brief, Meghiya is the Buddha’s attendant at the time. He sees a mango grove which inspires ‘serenity’ and which he considers suitable for making an effort on the Path. The Buddha gives some brief comments which Meghiya doesn’t appreciate and after asking permission to go to the grove for the third time ‘for the purposes of effort’, the Buddha just suggests he should do what it seems to be the time to do. To Meghiya’s great surprise, even though he has become a bhikkhu in good faith and gone to the secluded grove to make an effort, he is ovrwhelmed by thoughts concerned with sense-desires, ill-will and cruelty. He returns to the Buddha who says: “When liberation of heart is not fully mature , Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity.” He then proceeds to elaborate on these five conditions conducive to the development of wisdom. ***** These five in brief are: 1. The good friend 2. Morality. “..............seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom.....’ 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states 4. the 4 Right Efforts 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. ***** S: With regard to the first point, the good friend, the commentary adds a lot of detail.“This is the first thing that conduces to full maturity (aya.m pa.thamo dhammo paripaakaaya sa.mvattati): this blameless thing, reckoned as possession of a lovely friend, which is first on acount of its having been spoken of at the beginning of these five things due to its being primary for living the Brahmacariya and due to its being pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liberation of heart’s full maturity by way of causing there to be purified (the faculties of) faith and so that are as yet unpurified....” It then quotes various suttas about the value of the ‘lovely friend’: “For this, Ananda, forms the entire Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend..”. <....> “...For whatever monk there be who beholds a sin, even the size of the smallest of atoms, taking this to be similar to Sineru, king of mountains, that is a hundred thousand yojanas, plus sixty-eight thousand more besides, in height, who also beholds mere bad speech, which is totally petty, taking this to be similar to (an offence involving ) Defeat, such a one is also known as “one seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom”. S: I think this gives an indication of how far there is to go;-) One last note I find interesting relates to the fact that the Buddha knew Meghiya's work would 'fail to be accomplished' but knew it was useless to try to sop him. From the sutta the Buddha says: "How can we speak, Meghiya, when you speak of effort? You should do that for which you deem it now to be the time". We also read in the commentary about all the conditions from previous lives for Meghiya to choose that spot in the grove. <..> ********************************************************* > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > Little thoughts, subtle thoughts, > when followed, stir up the heart. > Not comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one runs here & there, > the mind out of control. > But comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one who is ardent, mindful, > restrains them. > When, followed, they stir up the heart, > one who is awakened > lets them go without trace. > Udana IV.1; Meghiya Sutta > ******************************************************** Sarah ====== 31891 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi James, Thanks for the feedback. Your analysis is very thorough and you make many good points. I’ve had to snip a lot (for length reasons only) and believe me, I know very little indeed about rupa and arupa brahma planes, but I’ll try to add comments here. These are very deep areas of dhamma as far as I’m concerned. I agree with your intro background abount nibbana. It is the only unconditioned dhamma as we read throughout the (Theravada Pali ) texts. --- buddhatrue wrote:> SPACE OVERVIEW: .....> According to the Abhidhamma, space is of two types: > limited/delimited space (paricchinnákása or paricchedákása) and > unlimited/boundless space (anantákása). Additionally, according to > the Abhidhamma, limited space is an ultimate reality with its own > intrinsic nature ... S: Not quite - it doesn’t have sabhava or ‘own intrinsic nature’, but it is anipphana (non-concrete rupa), with characteristics. this is the point clarified in discussion with B.Bodhi. .... J: >and unlimited space is purely conceptual. .... S: Yes. whilst the jhana cittas are ‘real’ and with sabhava, the objects are concepts. This is true of breath, kasinas, foulness and so on. So when there is insight (vipassana), it is in the process following which takes the jhana citta or other elements (e.g rupas making up breath) as object. This is why jhana cittas can never experience nibbana or eradicate defilements as I understand. ..... J: >I wish > to posit that the Buddha taught the opposite of this Abhidhamma > position: Limited space should be considered conceptual and > unlimited space is that which is real. > > LIMITED SPACE: > First, I wish to quote a sutta reference where the Buddha > metaphorically explained the characteristics of limited space: > > In MN 28 "The Simile of the Elephant's Footprint (Greater)", after > the Buddha gives a detailed explanation of the four elements (Earth, > Air, Fire, and Water), he says about space: > "Friends, just as when a space is enclosed by timber and creepers, > grass, and clay, it comes to be termed `house', so too, when a space > is enclosed by bones and sinews, flesh and skin, it comes to be > termed `material form'. > Therefore, limited space doesn't have its own characteristics. It > is conceptual. Only when it is surrounded or delimited by the four > elements does it then become anything. In this case of this sutta, > space then becomes `material form'. ..... S: I think we read about and discuss concepts of space which are pointing to the reality (aakaasa rupa). Aakaasa rupa ‘delimits’ the groups of rupas and they delimit it. In other words it depends on them for its arising. As the comy note indicates, the anatta nature of the elements is being stressed here. In total there are 18 elements; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14582 From ADL: The five senses: 1. eye-element (cakkhu-dhatu) 2. ear-element (sota-dhatu) 3. nose-element (ghana-dhatu) 4. tongue-element (jivha-dhatu) 5. body-element (kaya-dhatu) which is the body-sense The five objects (experienced through the five senses): 6. visible object-element (rupa-dhatu) 7. sound-element (sadda-dhatu) 8. smell-element (gandha-dhatu) 9. taste-element (rasa-dhatu) 10. element of tangible objects (photthabba-dhatu), comprising the following three kinds of rupa: earth-element (solidity), appearing as hardness or softness fire-element (temperature), appearing as heat or cold wind-element, appearing as motion or pressure The dvi-panca-vinnanas (experiencing the five sense objects): 11. seeing-consciousness-element (cakkhu-vinnana-dhatu) 12. hearing-consciousness-element (sota-vinnan-adhatu) 13. smelling-consciousness-element (ghana-vinnana-dhatu) 14. tasting-consciousness-element (jivha-vinnana-dhatu) 15. body-consciousness-element (kaya-vinnana-dhatu) Three more elements: 16. mano-dhatu or mind-element 17. dhamma-dhatu 18. mano-vinnana-dhatu or mind-consciousness-element ***** To show there’s no conflict with Suttanta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14647 From M115 also quoted in ADL; 'There are these eighteen elements, Ananda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mind-objects, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ananda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements.' ' 'Might there be another way also, revered sir, according to which it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements'?' 'There might be, Ananda. There are these six elements, Ananda: the element of extension, the element of cohesion, the element of radiation, the element of mobility, the element of space, the element of consciousness. When, Ananda, he knows and sees these six elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements.'' <....> .... J: > In most of the Nikayas where the Buddha describes the elements > (dhatu) he lists only the four elements, however, occasionally, > space and consciousness are listed as elements five and six > respectively. For example DN 33 "The Chanting Together" reads: > "Six elements: the earth-, water-, fire-, air-, space-element (akasa- > dhatu), the consciousness-element (vinnana-dhatu)." .... S: There are different classifications and the elements are stressed throughout the Tipitaka. .... J: > MN 140 "The Exposition of the Elements" defines the limited space <....> Now both the internal space > element and the external space element are simply space element. > And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom > thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' When > one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes > disenchanted with the space element and makes the mind dispassionate > towards the space element." ..... S: Only elements (paramattha dhammas) can be seen with insight in this way. .... J: > Therefore, the internal space element is defined as the absence of > anything, even air, and is also associated with the body and is > clung to as being oneself. .... S: It has characteristics, eg conditioned, delimiting, anatta etc. Not a concept, but terms to convey the meaning such as holes ‘of the ears’ are concptual illustrations only, just like body is used to convey the meaning of rupas. ..... J: > UNLIMITED SPACE: > Unlimited (Boundless Space) is cosmic space. It has no limits or > boundaries. .... S: I still understand it to be a concept, just like ‘brain’ or ‘hell realms’ or ‘animals’ or ‘humans’. In truth as Rob M’s detailed chart showed, there are merely different cittas experiencing various namas and rupas, as I see it. In the development of samatha, a concept such as breath may be experienced by extraordinarily high levels of kusala cittas with calm and may condition rebirth accordingly. I don’t understand there to be a contradiction, but I’m really out of my ‘realm’ when I talk about spheres of boundless space and so on, James. The Nyantiloka extract seemed right in this regard from my limited knowledge. ..... J:> MN 140 "The Exposition of the Elements" reads: > "He understands thus: `If I were to direct this equanimity, so > purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my > mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that > base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time." (1276). > Note 1276: MA: The sense is: If he attains the base of infinite > space and should pass away while still attached to it, he would be > reborn in the plane of infinite space and would live there for the > full lifespan of 20,000 aeons specified for that plane. In the > higher three immaterial planes the lifespan is respectively 40,000 > aeons, 60,000 aeons, and 84,000 aeons. ..... S: In other words, if he should pass away with jhana cittas experiencing this object, rebirth woud be such that rebirth would be in this ‘realm’ of jhana cittas with no sensory input as I read it. In the Abhidhamma, we read that cittas are ‘variegated’ and conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas and there are four planes accordingly: -kaamaavacara (sensuous plane) -ruupaavacara -aruupaavacara -lokuttara (supramundane) There are no akusala cittas in the last three. Ch18, survey of Paramattha Dhammas gives a detailed account http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... J: > This demonstrates that infinite space isn't just a concept; it is an > actual sphere of existence. I find it hard to believe that the > Abhidhamma could so blatantly contradict Buddhist cosmology so I am > wondering if either Nyanatiloka is mistaken or if I am > misunderstanding the given definition. Sarah, if you or anyone has > further clarification of boundless space, according to the > Abhidhamma, I would appreciate it. .... S: I think this is a very intricate topic, but when one understands that the only realities are citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana, it helps, I think. There isn’t any contradiction as I see it, but these teachings are very deep. I’m happy to explore it further with you. Your quotes provided are useful. As there’s so much material, I’m only touching the surface here. ..... J: > Y. KARUNADASA: .... S: There are a number of errors as I read it - especially in denying akasa rupa as being anything more than a concept and in failing to differentiate between space as anipphana rupa without sabhava, but conditioned etc and time which everyone agrees is a concept. Some of his comments about the former are contradicted in the texts I’ve given. I mostly agree with your conclusions (esp. on nibbana) and I agree with Helmuth Von Glasenapp’s comments you quoted in this and most other regards. Metta, Sarah ====== 31892 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new to buddhism Dear Friend, --- reesem44004 wrote: > Hi everyone. > First I want to thank you for allowing me to join your group. Very > happy to be able to openly discuss buddhism without being looked at > or treated in a weird manner. .... S: Not at all, I'm glad to see you here. Perhaps you can let us know where you live and anything further on how you've become interested in Buddhism. .... > I am very new to buddhism....just started my studies about 2 months > ago. I would like your input as to the books you would suggest that > would be good to start out with. > I have just ordered 5 books written by Alan Watts....please lend your > input on good "starter" books.... ..... S: Just about the first book I ever read (a few times) was 'the Buddha and his Teachings' by Narada Thera. A friend quoted from it recently, so I think it's on line and gives a simple, but clear introduction to Theravada Buddhism. I haven't really looked at it for a very long time though. Please also try reading Nina Van Gorkom's 'Buddhism in Daily Life' and any of her other materials here: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Also, if you go to ‘Useful Posts’ and look under: ‘New to the list and New to Dhamma’ and also ‘Abhidhamma for Beginners’, you will find more suggestions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Finally, why not ask some basic questions here and follow the threads, asking for further clarifications. Meanwhile, just ignore any complicated discussions like those on ‘space’;-) Look forward to hearing more from you, Metta, Sarah p.s We ask everyone to ‘sign off’ with a preferably real name, so we know how to address each other. No need to be shy here;-) ================= 31893 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Dear Nina & All, Many Happy Returns and in appreciation for your clarifications on this thread! --- nina van gorkom wrote: > A. Sujin gave me a short reminder of D.O. asking me: 3Do you want to > accumulate or do you want to eradicate? .... S: Hmmmm.....We see how important sacca parami (truth) is... ... > This time when we were in Bgk A. Sujin asked us several times: 3Do you > perform kusala for your own sake?2 I answered at first that when helping > others, I think of other people. But she kept on saying, it is for your > own > sake. I came, after more reflection, to the conclusion that deep in > ourselves there is such a notion. We cannot yet let go of self-love, it > is > deep-seated and we do not like to see it. Ignorance cannot see it, only > right understanding can. It is urgent to develop right understanding of > akusala, of kusala, of all realities. ..... S: Good reminders. We can see from our questions and concerns what the answer is: We ask how can there be more understanding, more metta, less anger, attachment etc. We can also see how affected we are by the worldly conditions. Even when we think we’re just thinking of other people, we’re also wondering if the gift, the comments or the writing are appreciated and care about the impression or impact. Self-love comes in all the time, even whilst reading a dhamma text and not wishing to be disturbed. I find these discussions very helpful. On sankhaara (formations) in D.O. I think we need to keep stressing that this only applies to kamma, i.e cetana (intention or volitional activity) whereas in other contexts it refers to all cetasikas (mental factors) except for feeling and perception in sankhara khandha and to all conditioned realities when ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’ etc is said. It can be confusing. RobM clarified: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17137 >The definition of "sankhara" in Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" starts, "This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished...." It then proceeds to give multiple definitions. You are probably familiar with the term "sankhara" as applied as one of the five aggregates. In this case, it means all of the cetasikas minus feeling and perception. The definition of "sankhara" when used as part of dependent origination is quite different. In dependent origination, "sankhara" is the 29 rebirth-producing cetana which fall into three classes: - Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara): cetana in the 8 maha kusala cittas [S: 4 with wisdom, 4 without, prompted and unprompted, with pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling] and cetana in the 5 rupavacara cittas - Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara): cetana in the 12 akusala cittas [S: the 8 cittas rooted in lobha, 2 in dosa and 2 in moha] - Formations of the imperturbable (anenjabhisankhara): cetana in the 4 arupavacara cittas In short, sankhara represents the 29 types of kamma (kamma = cetana) associated with the 17 lokiya kusala cittas and the 12 akusala cittas. Just as sankhara has a unique definition when used as part of dependent origination, so too does consciousness (vinnana) have a unique definition when used as part of dependent origination. As part of dependent orgination, consciousness means the 32 lokiya vipaka cittas.< ***** S: I’d also like to quote from an old post of Num’s on the meaning of sankhara and abhisankhara (as used in D.O.): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m2506.html >“Abhisankrara is cetana cetasika and here is the explanation. ” ***** S: Let me add one more quote from the Samohavinodani 648: (On the kinds of abhisankhara (formations)) “...It is permissible to say that it is taken in accordance with the method of the Sammaditthisutta (M i 54)too. For therein it is said: ‘Three, bhikkhus, are the formations. Which three? The bodily formation, the verbal formation and the mental formation. ‘But why are these taken in accordance with these suttas? This Abhidhamma is not newly made; nor is it spoken by sages outside (the dispensation), nor by disciples, nor by deities. But this is spoken by the Omniscient Conqueror. It is in order to illustrate this meaning that a single textual passage is set forth in like manner in the Abhidhamma and in the suttas.” Metta, Sarah ====== 31894 From: connie Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 0:46am Subject: Re: Robber Guests I'm still keeping an eye out myself and hoping to fined it! Jon Haha, Jon - is that lawyer talk like calling a person a party because we take so many things as being the self? I hope you fine it, too and maybe one about a bird's shadow appearing on the ground the moment the bird touches the branch it's flown up to sit on. Just a couple excerpts and footnotes from ATI that I enjoyed while I was looking for the guests: * Sutta Nipata IV.6 - Jara Sutta - On Decay As a man awakened from sleep no longer sees what happened in his dream, similarly one does not see a loved one who is dead. Those people who were seen and heard and called by their names as such and such, only their names remain when they have passed away. Those greedy for objects of attachment do not abandon sorrow, grief and avarice, but sages having got rid of possessions, live perceiving security. For a bhikkhu with a detached mind, living in a secluded dwelling, it is right, they say, that he no longer shows himself in the abodes (of existence).[1] 1. There is a play on words here: "bhavana," besides meaning "an abode of existence" also means "a house". So as well as saying, he is not reborn into any realm of existence, the passage also indicates he lives secluded and does not associate with people in the village. * Sutta Nipata IV.10 - Purabheda Sutta - Before the Break-up of the Body Free from attachment with regard to the future, not sorrowing over the past, he sees seclusion in the midst of sensory contacts.[3] 3. Nd.I: "He sees seclusion in the midst of sensory contacts" = he sees contact as empty of self. This passage may also refer to the fact that the awakened person experiences sensory contact as if disjoined from it. On this point, see MN 140 and MN 146, quoted in The Mind Like Fire Unbound, pp. 116 and 113. peace, connie 31895 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beings and Their Cittas Hi RobM (& James), Good to see your posts and I hear you may be meeting up with a friend in Singapore today. Pls let us know about it and your discussion if so;-) --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > 1.0 Beings in Four Woeful Planes - 37 Cittas > ============================================ <...> I found these charts very helpful for reference. Are they from U Silananda and did you have to type them out? Are there others on line? I notice in the book you gave us that on p50 there is a chart by him with the heading: Pa~n~natti Objects and their Subjects in Detail. It gives information about the objects of jhanas, including 'CONCEPT of Infinite Space'. If you have anything else on this, relevant to James' post and questions, I'd be grateful. Metta, Sarah ======= 31896 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Hi Howard, I promise everyone I’ll be rushing off to Tai-chi very soon and busy for the next couple of days;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Two things: > First of all, no wrong view is as good as right view. That's > indisputable. My point was that there are all sorts of wrong view, that > some > perspectives that are less than perfect are still useful, .... Not sure about that... .... and that views > that are > formally "right" may be followed (or not) in ways that are not useful. ..... S: I get your gist and intended meaning. Perhaps I’m being too ‘literal’ when I say that if the ‘right’ views are followed in ways that are not useful, then perhaps they aren’t really being followed and similarly, in between the ‘less than perfect’ or wrong views, may be some useful reflecting and following or good deeds performed etc. I’m sure we all have non-Buddhist family and friends who show as much kindness and generosity as any Buddhist friends for example. I’d say this is in spite of, not because of belief systems revolving around an idea of self. ..... > Secondly, I agree that mere attempts are never enough. For > example, > pursuing further the metaphor you mention below, seed planted in > infertile soil > or in fertile soil that never is watered, will not grow. (On the other > hand, > without the planting the seed, surely there will be no growth.) > --------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Yes - I forget what we were discussing originally, but we can see here, for example, seeds are planted(by conditions;-)) and by other conditions they may or may not grow or be accepted. We never know when the soil will be fertile or not and know for ourselves, that sometimes we’re able to hear the truth and often not. Do you have any comments or reflections on sankhara in D.O? The more contributions on each link the better. Metta, Sarah ====== 31897 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Eznir, You're having a good discussion with Sukin. I hope you continue. --- Eznir wrote: > Refer Sammaditti Sutta MN-09 > > With the arising of taints there is the arising of ignorance. Now one > of the taints is the taint of ignorance. Which means that with the > arising of ignorance there is the arising of ignorance. Therefore the > foundation of ignorance is ignorance itself! This implies that to an > uninstructed person it is intrinsically impossible to know that he is > ignorant, to know what he is ignorant of, since he is in ignorance. ... Your post on ignorance was very clear and helpful. Do you have any similar clear comments or quotes on sankhara (formations) as used in D.O.? As I just wrote in the post to Nina and all, I think we have to clearly distinguish the meanings in different contexts. Perhaps you can extract the references from your earlier post to me which were just related to this D.O. meaning. Metta, Sarah ====== 31898 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 5:01am Subject: Re: Beings and Their Cittas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobM (& James), > > Good to see your posts and I hear you may be meeting up with a friend in > Singapore today. Pls let us know about it and your discussion if so;-) > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > 1.0 Beings in Four Woeful Planes - 37 Cittas > > ============================================ > <...> > > I found these charts very helpful for reference. Are they from U Silananda > and did you have to type them out? Are there others on line? > > I notice in the book you gave us that on p50 there is a chart by him with > the heading: Pa~n~natti Objects and their Subjects in Detail. It gives > information about the objects of jhanas, including 'CONCEPT of Infinite > Space'. > > If you have anything else on this, relevant to James' post and questions, > I'd be grateful. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Friend Sarah, It seems that you and I are speaking a different language when it comes to this subject. "Concept" is that which has no objective reality. It is simply a product of the mind. Did the Buddha teach that any of the realms of existence are merely concepts (pannatti)? No, he did not. Now, I grant that the Abhidhamma may state this, but I am only addressing what the Buddha taught. If you want to convince me of your case, you are going to have to quote the Buddha. Quote a writing that begins with "And the Blessed One said…" and then you will get my undivided attention ;-). Allow me to quote another sutta, spoken by Lord Buddha, that is even more specific about this subject: "Since there actually is another world, one who holds the view, `there is another world' has right view. Since there actually is another world, one who intends `there is another world' has right intention. Since there actually is another world, one who makes the statement `there is another world' has right speech. Since there actually is another world, one who says `there is another world' is not opposed to those arahants who know the other world. Since there actually is another world, one who convinces another `there is another world' convinces him to accept true Dhamma…" MN 60 "The Incontrovertible Teaching". Since I wish to have right view, right intention, right speech, and to convince you of the true Dhamma, I tell you Sarah "There IS another world". It isn't just a concept or simply an object of jhana. It actually exists. Anything that states differently is not the true Dhamma. Metta, James 31899 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beings and Their Cittas Hi Sarah I meet Rob M. I benefited like having a book of his class notes and also my belly (he paid for dinner ;-)) and also discussing of some Abdhidhamma details, in fact I ask him for answers and rather than discussing with him. Interesting I asked about what happen to us when there is no more Buddha and it is extremely long time for Budda Metrieya to come and also after him, there will another incredible period of no Buddha before another arrived. Sometimes he said since we have develop kusala accumulations in this lives, in our future lives, these accumulations probably condition kusala behaviour even though we may not meet dhamma in our future lives. So he said start practising and this will accumulate more kusala behaviour, I couldn't agree less. As what Azita will say patience, courage and good cheer, at least I know panna accumulate will arise again in the future ;-). That also reminds me how lucky we are and RobM say we are now using our good kamma now and lets practise and develop more kusala kamma for the future live. He say one should not think in terms of next lives but millions of lives later. This is true because our kamma will affect us to 100 000 aeons of future lifes. I asked about assisted killing especially when medically we are declared brain dead. He told me of a story where he heard during the annual World Religion Conference in KL that a lady was in coma and the doctor considered her brain dead and the doctor advise her son to pull out the plug. The lady said she heard every single word that converse between her son and doctor. He son did not do it. Luckily for her and her son, she broke out of the brain dead situation and become alive again. Then I remember what Htoo wrote in another list, pulling off the plug is killing for the doer even though the person is considered brain dead. I think this is true also. So next time I meet this case, at least I know that brain dead may not be real death of the citta. And pulling out the plug even though compassion is still killing. Ken O 31900 From: robmoult Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 7:33am Subject: Re: Beings and Their Cittas Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Good to see your posts and I hear you may be meeting up with a friend in > Singapore today. Pls let us know about it and your discussion if so;-) ===== Ken O has already given a report on our dinner. I really enjoyed it. ===== > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > 1.0 Beings in Four Woeful Planes - 37 Cittas > > ============================================ > <...> > > I found these charts very helpful for reference. Are they from U Silananda > and did you have to type them out? Are there others on line? ===== I compiled the list from a number of sources, including U Silanda's notes. I spent quite a while cross referencing various texts. ===== > > I notice in the book you gave us that on p50 there is a chart by him with > the heading: Pa~n~natti Objects and their Subjects in Detail. It gives > information about the objects of jhanas, including 'CONCEPT of Infinite > Space'. > > If you have anything else on this, relevant to James' post and questions, > I'd be grateful. > This chart is reproduced in BB's CMA p142, Chart 3.6. Bhikkhu Bodhi gives some additional details. Metta, Rob M :-) 31901 From: Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/1/04 4:26:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > I’m sure we all have > non-Buddhist family and friends who show as much kindness and generosity > as any Buddhist friends for example. I’d say this is in spite of, not > because of belief systems revolving around an idea of self. > ========================= I disagree with this. It is all well and good to have a *belief* in no self, but that is far from determinative. There are Buddhists with "all the right beliefs" who are full of themselves and quite nasty to others, and this is sometimes due to their being more concerned with letter than spirit. And on the other hand, some of the most loving, compassionate, and selfless people I know believe in a human soul and in the divine nature of existence. And their loving and selfless nature in many cases arises directly from their religious practice and their adhering more to the spirit of their tradition than to the letter, and is not coincidental. The Dhamma, in my opinion, points to reality with no false steps, and it provides *the* perfect path of practice. It is *the* complete and perfect way to liberation in my estimation. But other traditions incorporate significant elements of practice in common with Buddhism, including cultivation of divine abidings, ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, and practice of sila and samatha meditation, and these practices, encouraged by devotion, can lead to a great deal that is wonderful as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31902 From: Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beings and Their Cittas Hi, James (and Sarah) - In a message dated 4/1/04 8:05:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Sarah, > > It seems that you and I are speaking a different language when it > comes to this subject. "Concept" is that which has no objective > reality. It is simply a product of the mind. Did the Buddha teach > that any of the realms of existence are merely concepts (pannatti)? > No, he did not. Now, I grant that the Abhidhamma may state this, > but I am only addressing what the Buddha taught. If you want to > convince me of your case, you are going to have to quote the > Buddha. Quote a writing that begins with "And the Blessed One > said…" and then you will get my undivided attention ;-). > > Allow me to quote another sutta, spoken by Lord Buddha, that is even > more specific about this subject: > > "Since there actually is another world, one who holds the > view, `there is another world' has right view. Since there actually > is another world, one who intends `there is another world' has right > intention. Since there actually is another world, one who makes the > statement `there is another world' has right speech. Since there > actually is another world, one who says `there is another world' is > not opposed to those arahants who know the other world. Since there > actually is another world, one who convinces another `there is > another world' convinces him to accept true Dhamma…" > MN 60 "The Incontrovertible Teaching". > > Since I wish to have right view, right intention, right speech, and > to convince you of the true Dhamma, I tell you Sarah "There IS > another world". It isn't just a concept or simply an object of > jhana. It actually exists. Anything that states differently is not > the true Dhamma. > > Metta, James > ============================== I believe this is mundane right view, and it is established in distinction to the wrong view of those materialists who believe that death constitutes an annihilation. But when one wishes to look into noble right view, I think it may be well worth asking whether there exists "this world"! Where is "this world" to be found except in our minds? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31903 From: robmoult Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beings and Their Cittas Hi Ken O, I enjoyed dinner; only wish that I did not have to rush off to catch the flight. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Interesting I asked about what happen to us when there is no more > Buddha and it is extremely long time for Budda Metrieya to come and > also after him, there will another incredible period of no Buddha > before another arrived. Sometimes he said since we have develop > kusala accumulations in this lives, in our future lives, these > accumulations probably condition kusala behaviour even though we may > not meet dhamma in our future lives. So he said start practising > and this will accumulate more kusala behaviour, I couldn't agree > less. ===== I am confused :-) Is "I couldn't agree less" a typo? ===== > As what Azita will say patience, courage and good cheer, at > least I know panna accumulate will arise again in the future ;-). > That also reminds me how lucky we are and RobM say we are now using > our good kamma now and lets practise and develop more kusala kamma > for the future live. He say one should not think in terms of next > lives but millions of lives later. This is true because our kamma > will affect us to 100 000 aeons of future lifes. Metta, Rob M :-) 31904 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 8:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Beings and Their Cittas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Sarah) - ============================== > I believe this is mundane right view, and it is established in > distinction to the wrong view of those materialists who believe that death > constitutes an annihilation. But when one wishes to look into noble right view, I think > it may be well worth asking whether there exists "this world"! Where is "this > world" to be found except in our minds? > > With metta, > Howard Friend Howard, I agree with you that this is mundane right view, but I don't agree with the dichotomy you set up in this post between this type of right view and `noble' right view. Mundane right view and supramundane right view are both `noble' and correct according to the Buddha's dispensation. Therefore, again, I ask for a quote from the Buddha which says that any of the worlds, including this world, exist only in the mind. For you can provide such a reference, I will willing admit a mistake. Metta, James 31905 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Hi Larry, op 01-04-2004 01:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism.XVII 62: "How can it be known that these formations have ignorance > as their condition? -- By the fact that they exist when ignorance > exists..." > Another way to understand this is that wholesome and unwholesome > volitional consciousnesses only make sense as "me" and "my" > consciousnesses. Desire and generosity only make sense as an > appropriation of self view. N: There are three ways of clinging to ourselves: this is mine, this am I, this is myself, as we read in many suttas. Explained in the Vibhanga and Co as: clinging with lobha (without wrong view), with wrong view and with conceit (then there is no wrong view). There is not wrong view all the time, for example when enjoying food or music, there may not be any wrong interpretation of reality, no special view. We have to keep in mind who eradicates what at which stage of enlightenment. The streamwinner has eradicated wrong view, but not clinging with lobha or conceit. He has to continue being aware of lobha and conceit when they appear. When akusala appears, it does not matter, he has to know it. It has arisen already because of conditions, and thus, it is a suitable object of awareness. L: "Clinging" (upadana) is precisely self view, > aka ignorance. N: Ignorance is different from wrong view. But it conditions it, true. There are four kinds of clinging, upadana: sensuous clinging, this is clinging without wrong view. Then there are three more that are forms of wrong view: clinging to views, to rules and rituals (wrong practice) and to personality belief (20 kinds). L:There is no desire or generosity without self view. > Desire and generosity are both clinging ("intensified desire"). N: Kusala is kusala, it cannot be changed into akusala. But, cittas arise and fall away very fast, and that is why for us worldlings, wrong vieuw or lobha can arise in between all the time. But it is important to distinguish different dhammas. L: When desire arises it is "I" who desires. Find this "I"! Look! Look! N: Very good! Good reminder! We have to learn about clinging to self. It is the latent tendency of wrong view, ignorance, lobha, etc. that is so strong and conditions the arising of akusala cittas. In the Vis. we shall come to study all the different cetasikas. They each have a different characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause. We should profit from the study in full, because it is the soil for direct understanding of dhammas. Soil is the transl of bhumi, it means also foundation. As we read in Vis. XIV, 32: The more we investigate what we learn, the more we shall see that the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma are one Dhamma, they are directed to what is exclusively the Buddha's teaching, namely satipatthana or vipassana. In the Abhidhamma there are many details and it depends on the individual to what extent he wants to study them. There is no need to study all if one is not inclined to it, but one may appreciate the main principles and find out whether the Abhidhamma is beneficial for the understanding of one's life. We should not stumble over words and terms but rather see in how far the Abhidhamma can be applied just now. We shall also appreciate the Vinaya: to learn to see danger in the slightest faults. The rules for the monks are instructive for us. Why did the Buddha put these down? They make us see the disadvantage of akusala, even when it is more subtle and hard to detect. We learn now about different dhammas, we learn to distinguish ignorance from wrong view, attachment from generosity, but, when understanding is developed and it becomes direct understanding it will be far more precise. It will penetrate the different characteristics of the dhammas at the moment they appear. Then there will be no more doubt. Realities are the same, the same old defilements, but understanding of them grows. Nina. 31906 From: robmoult Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 7:44am Subject: Re: Beings and Their Cittas Hi James, Long time no chat, eh? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > It > gives > > information about the objects of jhanas, including 'CONCEPT of > Infinite > > Space'. > > > > If you have anything else on this, relevant to James' post and > questions, > > I'd be grateful. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ======= > Friend Sarah, > > It seems that you and I are speaking a different language when it > comes to this subject. "Concept" is that which has no objective > reality. It is simply a product of the mind. Did the Buddha teach > that any of the realms of existence are merely concepts (pannatti)? ===== Perhaps I can clarify (BTW, I agree with you 100%). The first immaterial realm is called "Realm of Infinite Space". It is named thus because the beings in this realm spend most of their time meditating on the concept of infinite space. One arrives in this realm because one has attained the first immaterial jhana in some other realm by meditating on the concept of infinite space. "Infinite space" is a concept used as an object of meditation. I do not believe that the Buddha taught that the realms of existence are merely concepts. In other words, just because the realm is named after a concept, does not make the realm itself a concept. Perhaps there were posts that I missed, but I don't think that Sarah was implying in this post that the "Realm of Infinite Space" was only a concept. Hope this helps :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 31907 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi Larry, op 31-03-2004 01:25 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > I was wondering if abhidhamma has anything to say about breath as a > rupa, particularly as it may be related to nutriment or the life > faculty. N: I know very little about breath, except what I have read in the Vis. It is tangible object. The Vis explains that it can be known where it touches the nosetip or upperlip. Through touch are known: the three great elements, appearing as: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion (oscillation) or pressure. These three elements arise together with another great element, cohesion (water), and with the derived rupas of colour, odour, flavour and nutrition. These do not appear through touch, they only perform their functions of holding the group together and sustaining it (nutrition) so that it does not collapse. What we call breath is rupa originating from citta, not from kamma, thus, there is no life-faculty in this unit. L: I notice that air, in its unpolluted, calm form, is not an > inseparable octad, no visibility, smell. taste, resistance. Does it have > nutritive essence? N: Breath is not air. Sometimes the word air is used for the element of wind or motion, but I think you mean just the air outside. This cannot be touched by the great elements as we learnt. L:What conditions breath? N: Citta originates it. Throughout life we are breathing, our life depends on it. We cling to breath, but it is only rupa, tangible object, and it arises and then falls away immediately. L: What does breath condition? N: The continuation of life from moment to moment, until we die. Then, you may also mean, what does it condition in samatha? If someone has the pure intention to be free from clinging to sense objects and he has accumulated great skill for jhana he may choose this subject of meditation. The Buddha's great disciples developed it. They developed jhana and vipassana and became arahats. If one has the intention to develop samatha to the degree of jhana it means, one has to radically change his lifestyle, no more fun, entertaiments and the usual pleasures lay people enjoy. Complete dedication, not just a few hours a day. Since breath is originated by citta, the citta can be kusala citta with panna or citta rooted in lobha, attachment. It is not difficult to notice that cittas with lobha are by far in the majority in a day when compared with kusala citta. That is why the meditator needs strong mindfulness and keen panna. He needs to know very precisely when the citta is kusala and when akusala. His goal is detachment from sense pleasures. Thus, breath is a special tangible object originated by citta. It is very subtle. When we try to know it, there is bound to be thinking about it with attachment. When there are the right conditions it appears and then it can be known. Your question was a good reminder. When getting things ready for lunch I was thinking: what, I am considering the subtle tangible object that is breath, but I am neglectful of tangible object that is coarse. This arises all the time when handling things in the kitchen, walking, being occupied with the usual things in daily life. When eating, oja, nutrition, is coming, but it is a subtle rupa and hard to know. It does not matter, we can understand it as a condition. Then while chewing the food, we are so absorbed in flavour, we forget that there is also tangible object appearing while chewing, such as softness or heat. There is such a lot to be discovered and understood! It takes a long time before we are familiar with the characteristics of, for example, tangible object and realize it as only a rupa. Not a hand or a cup that is hard, just rupa dhamma, different from nama dhamma. Nina. 31908 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Dear Howard, Your outlook reflects mine absolutely. Before I was a Buddhist, I was a Hindu, and before that, a Catholic. My spiritual path was always inspired and directed by very devout priests or gurus. I still have great respect for their purity and self- sacrifice. At heart, I believe they can go as far as a devout Buddhist in leaving self behind and living and meditating so as to reach Nirvana (which they call Heaven.) With metta, Doret On 4/1/04 7:30 AM, "upasaka@a..." wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 4/1/04 4:26:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > >> I¹m sure we all have >> non-Buddhist family and friends who show as much kindness and generosity >> as any Buddhist friends for example. I¹d say this is in spite of, not >> because of belief systems revolving around an idea of self. >> > ========================= > I disagree with this. It is all well and good to have a *belief* in no > self, but that is far from determinative. There are Buddhists with "all the > right beliefs" who are full of themselves and quite nasty to others, and this > is sometimes due to their being more concerned with letter than spirit. And on > the other hand, some of the most loving, compassionate, and selfless people I > know believe in a human soul and in the divine nature of existence. And their > loving and selfless nature in many cases arises directly from their religious > practice and their adhering more to the spirit of their tradition than to the > letter, and is not coincidental. > The Dhamma, in my opinion, points to reality with no false steps, and > it provides *the* perfect path of practice. It is *the* complete and perfect > way to liberation in my estimation. But other traditions incorporate > significant elements of practice in common with Buddhism, including > cultivation of > divine abidings, ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, and practice of > sila and > samatha meditation, and these practices, encouraged by devotion, can lead to > a great deal that is wonderful as well. > > With metta, > Howard 31909 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 10:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Dear Doret As the Great Sufi Hazrat could say, to get the Philosophical stone one must fix the mercury,warm it gently and constantly till it becomes silver. After that, the sufi alchemist must drop his herbal elixir upon it (one or two green leafs only!) , to realize the final transmutation from silver to gold. The process to raise up a Guru or spiritual master can be stated at the same basis of concepts. Once the samana gets the Priesthood or arahantship, he can now transmutate other beings' ordinary lifes to the real gold of very meaningful existences! From catholicism to Hinduism the steps aren't so hard. From Hinduism to buddhism it depends of what way you take on...you see, at my opinion the Islam has more substantial doctrine on these basis than some Mahayana's dispensations: many of them are basically mere idolatry at its core. (From apple-core to apple-seed it's only a single step!) Mettaya, Ícaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Howard, > > Your outlook reflects mine absolutely. > Before I was a Buddhist, I was a Hindu, > and before that, a Catholic. My spiritual > path was always inspired and directed by > very devout priests or gurus. I still have > great respect for their purity and self- > sacrifice. At heart, I believe they can > go as far as a devout Buddhist in leaving > self behind and living and meditating so > as to reach Nirvana (which they call > Heaven.) > > With metta, > Doret > > > On 4/1/04 7:30 AM, "upasaka@a..." wrote: > > > Hi, Sarah - > > > > In a message dated 4/1/04 4:26:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > >> I¹m sure we all have > >> non-Buddhist family and friends who show as much kindness and generosity > >> as any Buddhist friends for example. I¹d say this is in spite of, not > >> because of belief systems revolving around an idea of self. > >> > > ========================= > > I disagree with this. It is all well and good to have a *belief* in no > > self, but that is far from determinative. There are Buddhists with "all the > > right beliefs" who are full of themselves and quite nasty to others, and this > > is sometimes due to their being more concerned with letter than spirit. And on > > the other hand, some of the most loving, compassionate, and selfless people I > > know believe in a human soul and in the divine nature of existence. And their > > loving and selfless nature in many cases arises directly from their religious > > practice and their adhering more to the spirit of their tradition than to the > > letter, and is not coincidental. > > The Dhamma, in my opinion, points to reality with no false steps, and > > it provides *the* perfect path of practice. It is *the* complete and perfect > > way to liberation in my estimation. But other traditions incorporate > > significant elements of practice in common with Buddhism, including > > cultivation of > > divine abidings, ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, and practice of > > sila and > > samatha meditation, and these practices, encouraged by devotion, can lead to > > a great deal that is wonderful as well. > > > > With metta, > > Howard 31910 From: Antony Woods Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 11:10am Subject: Hello again: A warm invite to new Yahoo group "forgivenessBuddhism" Dear Howard, Sarah, Nina and Group and guests, I now warmly invite you to join a new Yahoogroup I've set up called "forgivenessBuddhism". http://groups.yahoo.com/group/forgivenessBuddhism/ Does forgiveness get harder as you get older because there are more evil deeds to remember? I turn 34 this month and it seems to be getting harder as time goes by although the Buddha's teachings such as Sankha Sutta really helps a lot for me. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2540 This Dhammapada quote below helps. It was repeated over and over by Ven Maha Ghosananda with Cambodian refugees who had suffered enormously under Pol Pot in the 1970's. "hatred never ceases by hatred; by love alone it is quelled. This is a truth of ancient date, today still unexcelled." With metta / Antony. 31911 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Dear Ícaro I'm not sure of your meaning. Are you saying it is easy to go from Catholicism to Hinduism but not from Hinduism to Buddhism? If you are, it was the opposite for me. I find parallels all over the place between Hinduism and Buddhism, which made it easier for me to get to Buddhism.To go from Catholicism to Buddhism direct would have been nearly impossible. There are too many differences. It was Hinduism that taught me to eliminate desire and aversion, a practice which I had never heard of before. It was Hinduism which taught me to recognize meditation practice as a path to deliverance from suffering. It was Hinduism that said the universe would be destroyed and created again and again, and maybe there was not even a creator who started it all. It was Hinduism that taught me to eliminate ego (or self). And all that had a direct impact on my life and how I approached problems I faced. There are substantial differences, of course, but those similarities were very powerful to me. With metta, Doret On 4/1/04 10:28 AM, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Doret > > From catholicism to Hinduism the steps aren't so hard. From > Hinduism to buddhism it depends of what way you take on...you see, at > my opinion the Islam has more substantial doctrine on these basis > than some Mahayana's dispensations: many of them are basically mere > idolatry at its core. > (From apple-core to apple-seed it's only a single step!) > > Mettaya, Ícaro > -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: >> Dear Howard, >> >> Your outlook reflects mine absolutely. >> Before I was a Buddhist, I was a Hindu, >> and before that, a Catholic. My spiritual >> path was always inspired and directed by >> very devout priests or gurus. I still have >> great respect for their purity and self- >> sacrifice. At heart, I believe they can >> go as far as a devout Buddhist in leaving >> self behind and living and meditating so >> as to reach Nirvana (which they call >> Heaven.) >> >> With metta, >> Doret >> 31912 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 0:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Dear Doret You can think that Hinduism and Buddhism has so many points of contact - Karma, Dhamma, mind culture and so on - but it's not so! Dr. Loghanathan - that's a jainist! - once stated at a series of posts on Jainism Yahoo group that Buddhism and Hinduism were mortal enemies at the very teeth! After its spetacular success on Índia, Theravada Buddhism was "deconstructed" by Shivaism in decades and centuries of social friction, ending at last with bhikkhus and elders taking refuge on Sri Lanka and other countries on South Asia. That's his opinion, you see: Islamic invasion took a stand on it also, but the bare facts were that social friction ended with the Golden Kingdon of Early Buddhism on Índia. In resume, there is a very subtile abyss between Hisnduism and Theravada Buddhism. Catholicism, at the other side, hasn't so much contradiction points against Hinduism... perhapst the fact that living at a South America Country Catholic at large - Brazil - gives me much more contact with many points of doctrine. You said that Hinduism helped you to get rid of many undesirable tracts of your self - right, your pick: But get a good understanding of oriental philosophical doctrines is a bit afar to assume it entirely or living it all your life. Compare it with speaking a foreign language: you can get a knack on French, Pali, Hebrew, Arabic, etc, only studying the text-books about it... but express yourself, understand others plenty, etc, demands years and years of continuing practise. At least it was my own experience: I feel an abyss between Hinduism and Buddhism that I don't perceive so intensely between Catholicism and Hinduism. (And The Islam appeals me also: its doctrine is very interesting on many, many subjetcs at daily life!) Mettaya, Ícaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Ícaro > > I'm not sure of your meaning. > Are you saying it is easy to go from Catholicism to > Hinduism but not from Hinduism to Buddhism? > If you are, it was the opposite for me. > I find parallels all over the place between Hinduism > and Buddhism, which made it easier for me to get to > Buddhism.To go from Catholicism to Buddhism direct > would have been nearly impossible. There are too many > differences. > > It was Hinduism that taught me to eliminate > desire and aversion, a practice which I had never > heard of before. It was Hinduism which taught me > to recognize meditation practice as a path to deliverance > from suffering. It was Hinduism that said the universe > would be destroyed and created again and again, and > maybe there was not even a creator who started it all. > It was Hinduism that taught me to eliminate ego (or self). > And all that had a direct impact on my life and how > I approached problems I faced. There are substantial > differences, of course, but those similarities were very > powerful to me. > > With metta, > Doret > > > On 4/1/04 10:28 AM, "icarofranca" wrote: > > > Dear Doret > > > > From catholicism to Hinduism the steps aren't so hard. From > > Hinduism to buddhism it depends of what way you take on...you see, at > > my opinion the Islam has more substantial doctrine on these basis > > than some Mahayana's dispensations: many of them are basically mere > > idolatry at its core. > > (From apple-core to apple-seed it's only a single step!) > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > > wrote: > > >> Dear Howard, > >> > >> Your outlook reflects mine absolutely. > >> Before I was a Buddhist, I was a Hindu, > >> and before that, a Catholic. My spiritual > >> path was always inspired and directed by > >> very devout priests or gurus. I still have > >> great respect for their purity and self- > >> sacrifice. At heart, I believe they can > >> go as far as a devout Buddhist in leaving > >> self behind and living and meditating so > >> as to reach Nirvana (which they call > >> Heaven.) > >> > >> With metta, > >> Doret > >> 31913 From: Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beings and Their Cittas Hi, James - In a message dated 4/1/04 11:29:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Howard, > > I agree with you that this is mundane right view, but I don't agree > with the dichotomy you set up in this post between this type of > right view and `noble' right view. Mundane right view and > supramundane right view are both `noble' and correct according to > the Buddha's dispensation. Therefore, again, I ask for a quote from > the Buddha which says that any of the worlds, including this world, > exist only in the mind. For you can provide such a reference, I > will willing admit a mistake. > > Metta, James > ======================= Well, I can tell you this: The Buddha said that the world lies within this fathom long body with its mentality. He also said that "the all" is sight and visual object, hearing and sounds, etc. This does not, IMHO, describe an objective world "out there". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31914 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 2:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Friend Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Doret (And The Islam appeals me also: its doctrine is very interesting > on many, many subjetcs at daily life!) > > Mettaya, Ícaro I agree with you that Buddhism and Islam are closer than Buddhism and Hindusim. I haven't run into many who do recognize the strong similiarities between Buddhism and Islam. Actually, the Prophet Mohammed came to the `realization' of Islam after meditating and praying in a cave at various times for several years. However, I believe that Mohammed only developed the ability to communicate with devas of the Brahama realm who then convinced him that a `Brahma' or `God' had created the universe. These devas kept in almost constant conversation with him and helped him to develop the Koran; he called them `angels'. He didn't go as far in his wisdom as the Buddha however. Unfortunately, though, I find the Islamic stand on homosexuality morally reprehensible. That is the only significant fault I find with Islam. I am not sure if this stand came from Mohammed himself because there is much evidence that he had a homosexual relationship with a younger male cousin. Anyway, I think I am starting to get off-topic a bit. ;-)) I'll just leave it at that. Metta, James 31915 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 2:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beings and Their Cittas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - ======================= > Well, I can tell you this: The Buddha said that the world lies within > this fathom long body with its mentality. He also said that "the all" is sight > and visual object, hearing and sounds, etc. This does not, IMHO, describe an > objective world "out there". > > With metta, > Howard Friend Howard, This is more a subjective analysis of a couple of teachings of the Buddha; it isn't specific. I would think that if there was no objective reality, the Buddha would have said so very specifically at some point in his 45 years of teaching. As it is, he described that there is an objective reality that not everyone knows about and that exists without someone knowing it-as in the case of other worlds. But again, I am not quite the phenomenalist that you are. Perhaps you are right about this on a certain level. This is very high and slippery philosophy we are getting into. ;-)) Metta, James 31916 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 1:52pm Subject: Re: Beings and Their Cittas Friend Rob M, Rob: Long time no chat, eh? James: Yea, I guess so! Good to chat with you again. But I guess when one is contemplating the time span of 60,000 aeons, as in the Realm of Infinite Space, it hasn't really been that long after all! ;-)) My computer was broken for a while but I was able to get it fixed. Rob: Perhaps I can clarify (BTW, I agree with you 100%). James: Thanks for helping to clarify. You do clarify one aspect of what I was saying but not everything; I will clarify this alternate aspect later in this post. We agree 100% on the Realm of Infinite Space being an actual realm of existence, but I think we still disagree on Infinite Space being merely a concept. I still maintain that it isn't just a concept, it is a reality (an `ultimate' reality or not I don't consider important). Rob: The first immaterial realm is called "Realm of Infinite Space". It is named thus because the beings in this realm spend most of their time meditating on the concept of infinite space. One arrives in this realm because one has attained the first immaterial jhana in some other realm by meditating on the concept of infinite space. James: Okay, we mainly agree here except for your use of the word `concept'; I believe a more appropriate word would be `object'. Also, I don't know if the devas of this realm `spend most of their time meditating', I just know that this realm doesn't contain any rupa (matter) whatsoever and that the devas existing there are pure mind with no material bodies. Obviously, in a situation like that, there probably wouldn't be a whole lot to think about except infinite space! ;-)) Rob: "Infinite space" is a concept used as an object of meditation. James: Here you seem to be mixing up terms. To my understanding, a concept is something that doesn't have an objective reality; it is a pure thought with no basis in reality. But an object, even when mentally formed in the mind, does have a corresponding objective reality. Also, to my understanding, in Theravada Buddhism everything about the world and existence can be mentally known. If a mind is free of delusion, i.e. an arahant, than the object in that person's mind does 100% correspond to an objective reality. In other words, there is no degradation in the translation from the reality to the mental formation. Rob: I do not believe that the Buddha taught that the realms of existence are merely concepts. In other words, just because the realm is named after a concept, does not make the realm itself a concept. James: Again, this is getting kind of confusing. In MN 121 "The Shorter Discourse on Voidness" the Buddha describes the subsequent steps that one takes to have the mind abide in voidness (a characteristic of Nibbana but, evidently, not Nibbana itself): "Now, as well as before, I often remain in an attitude of emptiness. Just as this palace of Migara's mother is empty of elephants, cattle & mares, empty of gold & silver, empty of assemblies of women & men, and there is only this non-emptiness -- the singleness based on the community of monks; even so, Ananda, a monk -- not attending to the perception (mental note) of village, not attending to the perception of human being -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of forest. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of forest. "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of forest.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of forest.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn121.html#neithe r So, the Buddha would direct his mind, formerly and now, to `forest' so that his mind would be void of elephants, cattle, horses, gold and silver, and society. In this case he uses `forest' as the OBJECT of his meditation. Is a forest merely a concept? I don't think so. I haven't been to one in a while but as I remember they contain trees and wild animals and such. ;-)). However, this object of his meditation is still of a gross material quality so he further refines it and next contemplates the element of `Earth'. Also, the Earth element is not simply a concept, it has an objective reality. Next he focuses his mind on the Base of Infinite Space, then Base of Infinite Consciousness, then Base of Nothingness, then Base of Neither Perception Nor Non Perception, and then simply on the mind itself with no object of concentration whatsoever. It is from this objectless concentration that the taints are destroyed, anatta is realized, and Enlightenment is reached. Rob: Perhaps there were posts that I missed, but I don't think that Sarah was implying in this post that the "Realm of Infinite Space" was only a concept. James: I don't know. It is difficult to determine what anyone is `implying'. I just posted the information I thought was important to know. If I missed the mark, oh well. It wouldn't be the first time! ;-)) Metta, James 31917 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 1:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation Hello all, it does not seem the discourses of the Buddha support the following claim. Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." (Samyutta Nikaya tans. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom, 2000) Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% << Hi, Thank you for the excellent reminders. I hope you don't mind a few comments, on this last sentence. Firstly the Buddha did call the jhana practices the 'pleasant abidings in the here and now' which is what a lot of people need when the senses and thoughts trouble them too much, or as an alternative to sleep. But once the jhana ends, all the other senses operate again normally and since one still has all the kilesas there, no attenuation at all since only panna can attenuate and ultimately attenuate kilesas, even the anusaya [latent, dormant] ones, we are more or less as we were before the resting period, and might even have greater attachment to our achievements, since not all can achieve kusala jhana of great bliss while we can. One can even cultivate this to the highest degree and be able to attain the abhinnas to do miracles, and become so over confident in our powers we may think we had attained arahantship and convince people that we had, by performing miracles for them, as Devadatta, who attained all the abhinnas, did to Ajatasatru [sp?], and even tried to murder the Buddha to take over control of the Sangha. We can see that if he had the panna of satipatthana he would have known that there can be no real control over anything. This is why the Buddha taught that satipatthana is the only way to the eightfold path of nibbana. Anumodana with your studies, Amara >> 31918 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Dear Ícaro , I don't think you and I are as far apart as you think. Catholicism: I got my BA and MA at a Catholic college (now a university), and taught there for seven years. I was exposed to studies aplenty in Catholic doctrine, But what I personally followed were the mystics, especially St. John of the Cross. Hinduism: My contact with Hinduism was from two sources: the Bhagavad Gita and Haidakhan Babaji. Sri Babaji respected all religions. He said they all take you to the goal. The Gita makes similar statements, e.g. that following any personal deity with devotion is the best way for most people because it is harder to have devotion to an abstract cosmic spirit that manifests in all. Hinduism provided three paths: devotion, meditation, and service., Some would add a fourth, surrender. And as I said, a Hindu is to avoid desire and aversion and do all work without regard for success or failure. Buddhism agrees. You are asuming that I embraced these organized religions in their totality and approved of everything their leaders taught and acted upon. I didn't. I took what helped me to lead a spiritual life. Period. Yes, Hinduism and Buddhism have been enemies, but where in Hindu doctrines, do you find that enmity approved? I respect much of Islamic thought and much of it parallels Christian belief, and yes, Buddhism, too, but I was influenced most by the Sufis: Look at these poems by Hafiz: ---------------------------------- AND LOVE SAYS And love Says, ³I will, I will take care of you,² To everything that is Near. ----------------------------------- HOW FASCINATING How Fascinating the idea of death Can be. Too bad, though, Because It just isn¹t True. -------------------- Even After All this time The sun never says to the earth, ³You owe Me.² Look What happens With a love like that, It lights the Whole Sky. -------------------- I have to say that the religions I have followed have enriched me. It has been a path. The path led to Buddhism. I appreciate Buddhism all the more because I can compare it with the others and see how much more it offers in wisdom and moral and spiritual practice. With metta, Doret On 4/1/04 12:18 PM, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Doret > > You can think that Hinduism and Buddhism has so many points of > contact - Karma, Dhamma, mind culture and so on - but it's not so! > Dr. Loghanathan - that's a jainist! - once stated at a series of > posts on Jainism Yahoo group that Buddhism and Hinduism were mortal > enemies at the very teeth! After its spetacular success on Índia, > Theravada Buddhism was "deconstructed" by Shivaism in decades and > centuries of social friction, ending at last with bhikkhus and elders > taking refuge on Sri Lanka and other countries on South Asia. > That's his opinion, you see: Islamic invasion took a stand on it > also, but the bare facts were that social friction ended with the > Golden Kingdon of Early Buddhism on Índia. > In resume, there is a very subtile abyss between Hisnduism and > Theravada Buddhism. > Catholicism, at the other side, hasn't so much contradiction > points against Hinduism... perhapst the fact that living at a South > America Country Catholic at large - Brazil - gives me much more > contact with many points of doctrine. You said that Hinduism helped > you to get rid of many undesirable tracts of your self - right, your > pick: But get a good understanding of oriental philosophical > doctrines is a bit afar to assume it entirely or living it all your > life. > Compare it with speaking a foreign language: you can get a knack > on French, Pali, Hebrew, Arabic, etc, only studying the text-books > about it... but express yourself, understand others plenty, etc, > demands years and years of continuing practise. At least it was my > own experience: I feel an abyss between Hinduism and Buddhism that I > don't perceive so intensely between Catholicism and Hinduism. > (And The Islam appeals me also: its doctrine is very interesting > on many, many subjetcs at daily life!) > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > 31919 From: Philip Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 3:51pm Subject: Defending one's view in an unskillful way Hello all Just a quick question before I rush off to work. I've read somewhere about the unskillful habit of cherishing one's own view and defending it with a self-interest that becomes apparent on deeper reflection. I think it's related to the hindrances. Now I've forgotten the Pali term and I don't remember where I read about it. Could someone help me out? Thanks Phil 31920 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 4:02pm Subject: The Fruits Of Right Effort (samma-vayam) The Fruits Of Right Effort (samma-vayam) Devadaha Sutta, MN 101 23 "And how is exertion fruitful. bhikkhus. how is striving fruitful? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is not overwhelmed by suffering and does not (inflict suffering upon himself); and he does not give up the pleasure that accords with Dhamma (jhana), yet he is not infatuated with pleasure. He knows thus: 'When I strive with determination, this particular source of suffering fades away in me because of that determined striving; and when I look on with equanimity, this particular source of suffering fades away in me while I develop equanimity.' He strives with determination in regards to that particular source of suffering which fades away in him because of that determined striving; and he develops equanimity in regard to that particular source of suffering which fades away in him while he is developing equanimity. When he strives with determination such and such a source of suffering fades away in him because of that determined striving; thus that suffering is exhausted in him. When hew looks on with equanimity, such and such a source of suffering fades away in whim while he develops equanimity; thus that suffering is exhausted in him." 30-37 "Again bhikkhus, here a Tathagata appears in the world, accomplished, fully enlightened...(as Sutta 51,12-19)...he purifies his mind from doubt." 38-41 "Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters upon and abides in the first absorption (jhana)...(through 4th jhana)." 42 "When (one's) concentrated mind is thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfections, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, (one) directs it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. (One) recollects (one's) manifold past lives, this is, one birth, two births...(as Sutta 51, 24)...Thus with their aspects and particulars (one) recollects his manifold past lives. Thus too, bhikkhus, this exertion is fruitful, this striving is fruitful." 43 "When (one's) concentrated mind is thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfections, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, (one) directs it to knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings...(as Sutta 51,25)...Thus the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, he sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions. Thus too, bhikkhus, (this) exertion is fruitful, this striving is fruitful. 44 "When (one's) concentrated mind is thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfections, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, (one) directs it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. One understands as it actually is (vipassana): 'This is suffering';...'This is the origin of suffering';...'This is the cessation of suffering';...'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering';...'These are the taints';...'This is the origin of the taints';...'This is the cessation of the taints';...'This is the way leading to the cessation of taints." 45 "When one knows and sees thus, one's mind is liberated from the taints of sensual desire, from the taints of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: 'It is liberated,' One understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.' Thus too, bhikkhus, this exertion is fruitful, this striving is fruitful. (Majjhima Nikaya trans. Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi, Wisdom, 1995) Kindest regards, Jef Brooks 31921 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 6:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beings and Their Cittas Hi RobM Sorry typo error. I should say simply, I agree with you ;-). A short dinner is better than no dinner at all. Ken O --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > I enjoyed dinner; only wish that I did not have to rush off to > catch > the flight. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O > wrote: > > Interesting I asked about what happen to us when there is no more > > Buddha and it is extremely long time for Budda Metrieya to come > and > > also after him, there will another incredible period of no Buddha > > before another arrived. Sometimes he said since we have develop > > kusala accumulations in this lives, in our future lives, these > > accumulations probably condition kusala behaviour even though we > may > > not meet dhamma in our future lives. So he said start > practising > > and this will accumulate more kusala behaviour, I couldn't agree > > less. > > ===== > > I am confused :-) Is "I couldn't agree less" a typo? > > 31922 From: Date: Thu Apr 1, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi Nina, As far as I can tell, for me, the in-breath is produced by desire. The out breath seems to be produced sometimes by a form of dosa that pushes and sometimes by a form of alobha that releases tension. What kind of consciousnesses produce an arahant's breaths? It is hard to imagine breathing in without desire. Larry 31923 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 1:41am Subject: Re: Defending one's view in an unskillful way Hello Philip, Could it have been ditth'upaadaana 'clinging to views'? As far as I can tell, any instance of ditthi that doesn't have sammaa 'right' qualifying it mostly refers to wrong view or opinion. As well, I offer: "Dwelling on their own views, quarreling, different skilled people say: 'Whoever knows this, understands Dhamma. Whoever rejects this, is imperfect.' Thus quarreling, they dispute: 'My opponent's a fool & unskilled.' Which of these statements is true when all of them say they are skilled?" >>>>rest of sutta snipped for brevity only<<<< http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- 12.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello all > > Just a quick question before I rush off to work. I've read > somewhere about the unskillful habit of cherishing one's own view and > defending it with a self-interest that becomes apparent on deeper > reflection. I think it's related to the hindrances. Now I've > forgotten the Pali term and I don't remember where I read about it. > > Could someone help me out? > > > Thanks > > Phil 31924 From: Philip Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 2:45am Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hello Rob, and all. I've had a chance to read and reflect on your helpful post on Mudita, Rob. Allow me some comments and perhaps further questions. Ph:> > I would find myself wondering if > > the child was really beaming, or was just relieved that a tramautic > > disaster hadn't happened yet. > > ===== > R: > Please note that in this case, for you the mudita would only last a > brief instant before other (mainly akusala) mental states took over. > Because of natural decisive support condition, circumstances can > provide the opportunity for various mental states to arise. Ph: This, and a confirming comment that Sarah made, have been very helpful. Mudita arises - it's not a matter or my choosing it - and then the mainly akusala mental states take over and do their judgemental work. As Sarah says "I think as understanding of namas and rupas and kamma-vipaka grows, it becomes easier to really rejoice in others' good fortune..." I think the aspect that does the judging is interesting, because it's certainly working with the other's interest in mind. The mental state that arises to feel concern for a child whose mother shows signs of obsessional behaviour may or may not be akusala, but if it is, it is akusala that I will bear with. Anyways, the point is that mudita arises, or doesn't. It not something I choose to give rise to. I still feel, however, that we can practice intellectual contemplation of the brahma-viharas, and that this contemplation can help to condition the arising of "real" brahma-viharas later. For example, my contemplation work that led to designating men gobbing tobacco phlegm as a source of karuna has become something more real - when I see these men, karuna arises, and I think it's real - but it started from an intellectual designation. So I am thinking that there are paramattha dhamma brahma-viharas and coneptual/intellectual brahma-viharas, and that the latter are very important in doing work that gives rise to the former - but I have hardly begun to understand how. It certainly is interesting though :) R: > If the piano recital example stikes a nerve with you, then perhaps > you can pick another image that helps you prolong the state of > mudita. Perhaps you can think of a mother cuddling her infant. > Imagine the mother's look of complete contentment as she rocks in a > rocking chair looking down at a baby asleep in her arms. For me, this > image evokes mudita. Ph: No doubt that parents with children is my most reliable form of mudita. And it's an important one for my emotional health, because there is sadness at times about not having children of our own. I am also very muditafied when my students talk with great affection about their children - especially when it's the fathers. (My concerns about excessive early education here make me too critical of the mums, it seems.) Mudita also helps when kids are making a racket. I remember a pivotal day when I was trying to take an afternoon nap and boys were playing soccer below my window. I was able to turn to mudita (it was still an intellectual exercise at that time) and release my anger. Couldn't get that *#*%$ nap though. Allow me now to comment on the very interesting "closing thoguhts on mudita" in which you laid out the way the brahma-viharas work together. R: > Love imparts to equanimity its selflessness, its boundless nature and > even its fervor. For fervor, too, transformed and controlled, is part > of perfect equanimity, strengthening its power of keen penetration > and wise restraint Ph: I'm very interested in upekkha. I see it as arising from right understanding, so "keen penetration and wise restraint" are cause and effect, I think. Fervor is a word I hadn't thought of with equanimity. Surely it's not fervour in the feverish sense that I think of with that word, but something to do with samvega and saddha meeting up in a beneficial way. I do think enthusiasm is certainly important to prevent equanimity from sliding into indifference. R: > Compassion prevents love and sympathetic joy from forgetting that, > while both are enjoying or giving temporary and limited happiness, > there still exist at that time most dreadful states of suffering in > the world. It reminds them that their happiness coexists with > measureless misery, perhaps at the next doorstep. It is a reminder to > love and sympathetic joy that there is more suffering in the world > than they are able to mitigate; that, after the effect of such > mitigation has vanished, sorrow and pain are sure to arise anew until > suffering is uprooted entirely at the attainment of Nibbana. Ph: This is very helpful. Mudita can and usually will co-arise with karuna. It doesn't mean that I'm a party-pooper when I find myself aware of suffering beneath the "tsukuri warai" (very nice Japanese term that I translate as "manufactured laughter" - those bursts of forced laughter that you come across in certain situations) I can share people's joy and also feel aware of underlying suffering without being contradictory. The beautiful subtlety of dhamma and co- dependent origination. Mudita and karuna can and will arise together often. It is no longer necessary for me to try to decide which one to use, as though I were choosing a neck tie! I am very grateful for your having pointed this out to me. R: > Compassion guards equanimity from falling into a cold indifference > and keeps it from indolent or selfish isolation. Until equanimity has > reached perfection, compassion urges it to enter again and again the > battle of the world, in order to be able to stand the test, by > hardening and strengthening itself. Ph: The last bit surprises me, because I think this is the way I was seeing upekkha - as a kind of force field to protect me from aversion- until I began to see it more clearly as being based in right understanding. If there is understanding of annata, annica and dukkha, doesn't the need to "harden and strengthen" fade away? But I'm just being picky about words here. Anyways, thanks again for your very helpful guidance, Rob. Metta, Phil 31925 From: Philip Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: Defending one's view in an unskillful way Hi Christine, and all. Yes, that's the one. Thanks! And I found it when I got home in that chapter on the "Nature of Defilements" that someone (maybe you?) was kind enough to link me to. Ditthupadana "Clinging to Views" "Desire to be or not to be produces bias an attachment to views, theories or philosophical systems, and in turn methods, ideas, creeds and teachings. When views are clung to they become identified with as part of one's self. Thus, when confronted with a theory or view which contradicts one's own, it is taken as a personal threat. The self must fight to defend its own position, which in turn gives rise to all kinds of conflicts. The process tends to bind the mind into tight corners where the funcitoning of wisdom is impaired. Such thoughts and views do not provide knowledge, but rather obstruct it." (Sorry I can't give a source for the above) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip, > > Could it have been ditth'upaadaana 'clinging to views'? 31926 From: Philip Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 3:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hello Sarah, and all. Gaargh. Just lost a long post. I guess that happens to everyone at least once. I can't start it again, because it's time to make dinner. The gist was to thank you, Sarah, for your comments on my statement "The Buddha said to doubt everything" which was an off the cuff statement. Doubt is obviously one of the hindrances. I was talking about the need for this beginner to yield to views easily, and stay open to wavering until certainty arises, which it will, gradually. I'm glad I'm not latching firmly on to one way of practicing. These days I practice sitting meditation, and I don't practice sitting meditation, and both ways seem to be helping me. S: > You asked about the origins of the Dhp stories. By tradition, I believed > they are ascribed to Buddhaghosa or a contemporary commentator who > transcribed and collected them from the Sinhalese manuscripts of the > original commentaries. See Nina's recent post on commentaries and others > in U.P. It's a controversial area and some friends prefer to put aside all > commentarial material or even the Dhp verses themselves;-) P: This is interesting. You know how fond I am of the Dhammapada. But, again, I won't stop to worry myself about it or get involved in controversies - yet. :) S: > p.s Thx for your good intro (and Christine's adding of the comy notes) on > the La.tukikopama sutta. In truth, aren't we *all* types of people, > changing all the time - one moment cittas with mudita, the next with dosa, > then with wise reflection and so on. No need to cling to a `fixed > image?E-) I'd forgotten about that sutta already, typically. Thanks for the reminder. And how silly it was of me to think of designating people as this kind of person or that kind of person. I imagine the Buddha did that as a convenient teaching method. ("There are 4 kinds of people" kind of thing.) It isn't to be taken as a reflection of the way people really are. An example of how reading sutta without understanding the basics of Abhidhamma can lead to misunderstanding. Metta, Phil 31927 From: Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/2/04 12:04:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > As far as I can tell, for me, the in-breath is produced by desire. The > out breath seems to be produced sometimes by a form of dosa that pushes > and sometimes by a form of alobha that releases tension. What kind of > consciousnesses produce an arahant's breaths? It is hard to imagine > breathing in without desire. > > Larry > > ========================= My introsepction differs somewhat from yours on this matter. The easier issue is the out-breath: The out-breath has the in-breath as its primary cause, and the out-breath does not normally depend on desire/will (though it will if one tries to hold his/her breath), but under normal circumstances, without doing anything to the contrary, the pressure of the air-filled lungs, plus possibly gravity, simply pushes the air out. There also is, of course, a pulsing of the diaphragm involved, which normally occurs without conscious intervention. Whether or not willful impulses at a subliminal level drive that, and not just purely physical conditions, I can't say. The in-breath is a bit more complex matter it seems to me, and I agree that desire plays a stronger role here. There is no question that after a few moments of purposefully not breathing in, increasing discomfort up to the level of great pain arises, and the desire to breathe becomes powerful and leads to volition and action. However, generally, that action is just a desisting from holding the breath, and then the in-breath follows on its own, "automatically," due to physical conditions involving the nervous system and the diaphragm. Again, of course, there could be subliminal impulses involved as input to the physical processes, but this I don't know. With breathless metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31928 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Hi Larry, op 01-04-2004 06:36 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism.XVII 275: "Sorrow, grief, and despair are inseparable from > ignorance; and lamentation is found in one who is deluded. So, firstly, > when these three are established, ignorance is established..." > > L: A sense of loss and neediness is part of the basic ground of > ignorance that conditions emotional reactions (formations). N: As the Vis explains, sorrw etc. goes together with ignorance, and then when sorrow arises again and again there is also more ignorance accumulated. The Vis explains that clinging to sense objects causes sorrow when one is separated form them. After that the Vis explains about the other cankers: wrong view . On takes the khandhas for self and when these change sorrow etc. arises. The canker of becoming: even devas have dukkha when their lifespan is about to finish. You say: ignorance that conditions emotional reactions (formations). Quite true, but here, in the D.O. it is more than emotional reactions, we have to think of cetana, or kamma. The three kinds of abhisankhara. These will bring result in the form of vipakacitta (vi~n~naa.na). I like the reminder in the verse (273) : Thus we should not see a person in the Dependent Origination, only conditioned phenomena. Twelvefold refers to the twelve links. L: Desire always fails. Once we learn this, understanding (panna) has an entry. N: Yes. Lobha always gives the wrong advice, it is the wrong teacher. We still will have to put up with it for a long, long time. But, we can learn its true nature. Understanding can grow. Last night I heard A. Sujin about the D.O. and I want to share it: People speak about it too easily that they want to be released from the cycle. But they should be very honest with themselves. Otherwise one lives like in a dream. Understanding should be developed more so that it can see the benefit of release from the cycle. We should listen, study, investigate more, learn more, and then panna can perform its function. Seeing the benefit of release from the cycle is the function of panna, not of lobha. N: Is it not motivated by lobha when we say: enough of it all, I do not want anymore of all this dukkha? When we are sincere, we know that we are not ready to be released from the cycle, we still cling too much to all the pleasant sense objects, people and things, we cling to life. Actually only the panna of the arahat has become perfected and he is free from rebirth. However, once the arahat had to begin, just like us now. The lesson I always get is developing understanding now of the reality that is right at hand. Seeing, for example. Is this not right at hand? This morning I heard more about seeing. When there is seeing, there is not thinking at the same time. It is very difficult to let go of clinging to the image of a person or thing. From childhood and countless lives before that we believe that we see images. We can develop more understanding so that we know that there is a reality that appears and that can be seen when it impinges on the eyesense. The eyesense arises and falls away and it is a condition for seeing. We should often recap what we learnt in the Vis. and we can see that understanding of all these rupas can gain in depth when we reflect more on them. The Tiika about eyesense clarifies the impact of visible object on the eyesense. We should not think of anatomy, eyenerves, brain, etc. It shows conditions, knowing about these leads to detachment: This reminds us that it is absurd that a person can impinge on that lousehead and also that thinking is completely different from just seeing. Nina. 31929 From: Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi Howard, I don't think abhidhamma recognizes the autonomic nervous system. I assume heart beat is kamma produced but I don't think heart organ is the same as heart base. Also it seems likely there isn't much written on the mechanics of breathing. So I suppose whatever makes sense will suffice. However, I think it is interesting that as a volitional impulse the in-breath is unwholesome, being produced by desire, and the out-breath is at least sometimes wholesome, being produced by a "letting-go" consciousness. It is also interesting that none of this is mentioned in the Anapanasati Sutta. Any thoughts on why that is? At any rate, it might be best to try to die on an out-breath, if you have any control of the matter :-)) Larry 31930 From: Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 0:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/2/04 8:04:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > However, I think it is interesting that as a volitional impulse the > in-breath is unwholesome, being produced by desire, and the out-breath > is at least sometimes wholesome, being produced by a "letting-go" > consciousness. It is also interesting that none of this is mentioned in > the Anapanasati Sutta. Any thoughts on why that is? > ============================ Yes, I do have a thought on this. As I recall, in the sutta one is instructed to attend to the "initialization conditions" and the "termination conditions", to coin two phrases, but what they are is not mentioned. I suspect they are not mentioned, because they are being left to the meditator/person-paying-attention to discover directly for him/herself what they are and to note the conditioned nature of the in-breath and out-breath. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31931 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Friend Larry (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > At any rate, it might be best to try to die on an out-breath, if you > have any control of the matter :-)) > > Larry Just to insert a relevant sutta reference here. I apologize but I haven't been following this entire thread. If my contribution is inappropriate, please forgive me. What you wrote here reminded me of advice that the Buddha gave to Rahula, his son, when Rahula was just 18-years-old. He said: MN62 "The Greater Discourse of Advice to Rahula" "Rahula, that is how mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, so that it is of great fruit and great benefit. When mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated in this way, even the final in-breaths and out-breaths are known as they cease, not unknown." (647) Note 647: That is, the meditator dies calmly, with mindfulness and awareness. Metta, James Ps. BTW, I address you as "Friend Larry" and other members that way, nowadays, for two reasons: 1. It was something the Buddha did and I think it is kinda cool. ;-)) 2. It reminds me, while I am writing the post, that I need to be nice in my speech because I am addressing a friend and not just a stranger on the Internet (Harsh speech is something I am continually working on eliminating ;-)). Anyway, I hope you and others don't feel I am trying to be pretentious or anything. ;-) 31932 From: Date: Fri Apr 2, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi, James - In a message dated 4/3/04 2:42:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes, with regard to beginning posts with "Friend so-and-so": > It reminds me, while I am writing > the post, that I need to be nice in my speech because I am > addressing a friend and not just a stranger on the Internet (Harsh > speech is something I am continually working on eliminating ;-)). > Anyway, I hope you and others don't feel I am trying to be > pretentious or anything. ;-) > =========================== Two comments, James: 1) I'm glad you mentioned this, because I was wondering why you had begun to consistently adopt this (very nice) practice, and 2) I think that your idea is psychologically very clever! I think it is a great mindfulness technique - a really effective skillful means. I applaud you for taking such a proactive, well thought out, and serious approach to right effort. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31933 From: jonoabb Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: Robber Guests Connnie --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > I'm still keeping an eye out myself and hoping to fined it! > > Jon > > > Haha, Jon - is that lawyer talk like calling a person a party because > we take so many things as being the self? I hope you fine it, too and > maybe one about a bird's shadow appearing on the ground the moment the > bird touches the branch it's flown up to sit on. Well, robbers who are found should expect to get fined. BTW, good analogy in the passage below. To wish for the presence of a loved one who has passed away is as futile as trying to see in real life something dreamt of. Thanks for sharing it. Jon > Just a couple excerpts and footnotes from ATI that I enjoyed while I was > looking for the guests: > * > Sutta Nipata IV.6 - Jara Sutta - On Decay > > As a man awakened from sleep no longer sees what happened in his dream, > similarly one does not see a loved one who is dead. Those people who > were seen and heard and called by their names as such and such, only > their names remain when they have passed away. Those greedy for objects > of attachment do not abandon sorrow, grief and avarice, but sages having > got rid of possessions, live perceiving security. For a bhikkhu with a > detached mind, living in a secluded dwelling, it is right, they say, > that he no longer shows himself in the abodes (of existence).[1] 31934 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi Sarah and Nina Interesting during my dinner with Rob M, he told me that in the begining of this sutta (if I did not forgotten, it is he beginning or..) he said that in the original pali version of Satipatthana, this sutta is meant for those who have eradicated the two hindrances. I asked why it was not reflect in all the translation I have read, he said it depends on the translators. Ken O 31935 From: robmoult Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah and Nina > > Interesting during my dinner with Rob M, he told me that in the > begining of this sutta (if I did not forgotten, it is he beginning > or..) he said that in the original pali version of Satipatthana, this > sutta is meant for those who have eradicated the two hindrances. I > asked why it was not reflect in all the translation I have read, he > said it depends on the translators. As we discussed learning Pali, I mentioned that the phrase "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" is usually literally translated as "having put away covetousness and grief for the world". I gave this as an example of how knowing how to translate Pali literally was not enough to gain the full understanding of the meaning. I believe that this phrase could also be translated as "having conquered the first two hindrances (sensous desire and ill will)". Bhikkhu Bodi mentions that the commentary supports this second translation while Soma Thera glosses over this point. This second translation can put the Satipatthana Sutta into a new context as only really working for those who have conquered the first two hindrances. The conclusion of the Satipatthana Sutta says that even those who practice for seven days will reach the stage of Anagami or Arahant. Even though one goes through a two week retreat (twice the required time), one does not reach the stage of Anagami or Arahant, because the first two hindrances had not been cleared away before putting the Satipatthana Sutta into practice. This interpretation of the Satipattana Sutta may generate some controversy on DSG, but the key point of our discussion (learning Pali is not enough to really understand the Suttas) still holds. Metta, Rob M :-) 31936 From: robmoult Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > I've had a chance to read and reflect on your helpful post on > Mudita, Rob. Allow me some comments and perhaps further questions. > > Ph:> > I would find myself wondering if > > > the child was really beaming, or was just relieved that a > tramautic > > > disaster hadn't happened yet. > > > > ===== > > > R: > Please note that in this case, for you the mudita would only > last a > > brief instant before other (mainly akusala) mental states took > over. > > Because of natural decisive support condition, circumstances can > > provide the opportunity for various mental states to arise. > > > Ph: This, and a confirming comment that Sarah made, have been very > helpful. Mudita arises - it's not a matter or my choosing it - and > then the mainly akusala mental states take over and do their > judgemental work. As Sarah says "I think as understanding of namas > and rupas and kamma-vipaka grows, it becomes easier to really rejoice > in others' good fortune..." I think the aspect that does the judging > is interesting, because it's certainly working with the other's > interest in mind. The mental state that arises to feel concern for a > child whose mother shows signs of obsessional behaviour may or may > not be akusala, but if it is, it is akusala that I will bear with. ===== A possible interpretation: You see a child in front of you beaming with joy. For a moment, the object of your mental state is the child and mudita arises. However, the situation (piano recital) is a condition for the mind to create a completely fictious world where the obsessive mother is pushing her child. I say "completely fictious" because it is your own mental creation based on your own past experiences and assumptions. You react in a negative way (judging) this completely fictious world and this is where the mind start to dwell. It is kind of like crying during a movie on TV. The reality is coloured dots of light arranged in a pattern to represent actors captured on film pretending to live through something that never happened. This is delusion based on mental proliferation (papanca in Pali). I am reminded of my favourite section of the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18): "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one percieves. What one percieves, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable throught the eye." I interpret the last sentence as meaning that one gets wrapped up in their own fantasy world. ===== > > Anyways, the point is that mudita arises, or doesn't. It not > something I choose to give rise to. I still feel, however, that we > can practice intellectual contemplation of the brahma-viharas, and > that this contemplation can help to condition the arising of "real" > brahma-viharas later. For example, my contemplation work that led to > designating men gobbing tobacco phlegm as a source of karuna has > become something more real - when I see these men, karuna arises, and > I think it's real - but it started from an intellectual designation. > So I am thinking that there are paramattha dhamma brahma-viharas and > coneptual/intellectual brahma-viharas, and that the latter are very > important in doing work that gives rise to the former - but I have > hardly begun to understand how. It certainly is interesting though :) > ===== There is only one form of paramattha dhammas; one form of brahma- viharas. The act of meditation is "programming" the mind to work in a certain way. For example, imagine you spend an hour in deep metta meditation and as you drive home, somebody cuts you off. Because of the conditioning caused by the metta meditation, it will be more natural for metta to arise in this situation. This arises through what is called natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya in Pali). The conditioned state for pakatupanissaya paccaya is the current nama. The conditioning states for pakatupanissaya paccaya are strong past nama / rupa / concept: - "Past" can mean from this life or past lives - Conditioning states can be strong because: - They happened frequently in the past (habits) - They happended recently (just finished meditation) - They had strong volition (associated with traumatic event or a vow) ===== ===== > If there is understanding of annata, annica and > dukkha, doesn't the need to "harden and strengthen" fade away? But > I'm just being picky about words here. If there is true understanding of anicca, dukkha and anatta, then one has experienced Nibbana! Metta, Rob M :-) 31937 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Dear Philip, op 02-04-2004 12:45 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Ph: No doubt that parents with children is my most reliable form of > mudita. And it's an important one for my emotional health, because > there is sadness at times about not having children of our own. I am > also very muditafied when my students talk with great affection about > their children - especially when it's the fathers. N: I understand. Those eternal questions, do you have children, then painful silence, or a remark like, then you do not have any problems, you have an easy life. The sadness will always come back, we are not non-returners who have eradicated clinging to sense pleasures and the aversion that is condiitoned by it. But it helps to understand what conditions sadness. Actually we are clinging to an illusion, an idea of a child that one could own. Mine or my own. How can one own what falls away immediately: nama and rupa. One has children only on a temporary basis, life is so short. See how fast they grow up and go their own ways. Through the development of vipassana one comes to know that life is only in one moment, one moment of understanding an object through one of the six doors. That is the meaning of momentary death, each citta falls away immediately. It takes very long, many lives, to realize this. Dhamma is not a medicine one can quickly apply so that it helps immediately. But we can at least begin now. That is why I see the value of listening, and I heard just now: develop understanding of seeing now, of hearing, of sound. If we want a result now it is attachment, not the development of understanding. It is understanding that matters. The characteristics of dhammas are not in the book, they appear now. That is the practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma: right understanding of what appears. I think it is right understanding that can spontaneously condition mudita, without having to think about having to substitute it instead of sadness or to worry about it. It took me long to just rejoice in seeing other people's babies. But beware: lobha comes in all the time when we think, what a cute baby. It does not matter, understanding it is most important. I am also thinking of the sutta "Let not a person revive the past..", of which Suan gave us the Pali text, which I prefer. tattha, tattha vipassati: seeing with insight this and that. Namely: whatever appears. Thus, not continuously, that would be impossible. I like the aataapi, ardently, meaning: with perseverance and courage. My good wish to all, including myself, is the following: may we all have gradual understanding that life is only in one moment. Nina. 31938 From: Larry Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi Howard and James, Thanks for the reminders. I had forgotten about contemplating "origination factors and dissolution factors". I suppose the consciousnesses that produce in-breath and out-breath would be included in origination factors and the impermanence of individual breaths as well as impermanence of the life continuum resulting in death would be included in dissolution factors. Usually this is momentary insight rather than a change of lineage consciousness. Larry 31939 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 11:13am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 19 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has been practising meditation. As the practice becomes set in, he notices that his mind become calm. As calmness happens he becomes delighted. He is filled with joy and his body is suffused with rapture or joy. When these joy or piti does not come, he knows that it does not come. When it comes he notices it arising and it persisting in him. Piti energises the practice and it again supports the effort and wisdom. When his mind is free of such joy or piti, he also notes that there is no piti. He recognizes mind with piti as it arises and when falls away he notes it passing away. Again when piti arises, he notes that his mind is filled with piti. That piti filled mind does not stay long but passes away soon. When piti arise, the investigating power and mental energy are full of charge. Mindfulness is also evidently working and he seems to see mind phenomena very clearly through his mind and wisdom. That arising rapture or joy is not him or his. He knows that piti just arises and falls away.The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 31940 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Pannatti (Concept) Friends Sarah and Rob M, I have been giving this matter of `infinite space' being a concept more thought and research. I didn't quite understand why you were both claiming that infinite space is a concept while I claim that it is a reality. Then I came across this article by K. Sujin which possibly explains why you think in this way, and why I don't: "The instant one recognizes the things appearing is the instant one knows pannatti because pannatti is to make known in such and such a way. Even without naming them, to see painting of fruits and real ones, which is pannatti? Both are. Pannatti is not paramattha. What are paramattha? What are the differences between real fruits and their paintings? In the instant of seeing through the eyes, all that appear through the eyes are not animals, people, the selves or objects of any kinds whether in the instant of seeing paintings of grapes or that of seeing the fruits. Some might misunderstand that only the painting is pannatti, and not the fruit. But in reality both the picture and the fruit that appear through the eyes are pannatti-arammana of the continued processes of the mano-dvara-vithi-citta because the cakkhu-dvara- vithi-citta would know the colors that appear while the mano-dvara- vithi-citta would know pannatti or the meanings of grapes, because it is made known in such and such a manner that they are grapes whether they are the grapes or their paintings, both are pannatti- arammana, and not paramattha-arammana." http://www.dhammastudy.com/words11.html Here we have a picture of some fruit and then some actual fruit and both are to be considered concepts of `fruit'. Why? Did the Buddha teach this? I have read a lot of suttas and I have never come across this idea in any of them. Can anyone provide a sutta where the Buddha taught this, very directly? Granted, at some level the actual fruit that one sees is a concept because the colors and shades are assembled in the mind to create the recognition of `fruit', and the same fruit that I see may not match the same fruit that you see because we each have various levels of delusion in our minds, but I still don't understand why this is important to consider. I find this approach to pannatti (concepts) to be an overly simplistic and superficial way of viewing reality. This reminds me of a story that one of my students told me after school while he was helping me grade papers. We were talking about the various social institutions in Egypt and how they are different than in the US. He related a story to me that the police in Egypt don't have the financial resources for breathalyzers and blood tests to determine if someone is illegally drunk or not, so they have come up with various ways to tell. One method that they use is that they take the person into a room that has a large picture of a tree on the wall and they tell the person that if they can climb to the top of the tree they will not have to go to jail. Anyone who actually tries to climb the picture of the tree is considered illegally drunk. They will also show a picture of a television and tell the person that if they can fix the television they will not have to go to jail. Again, anyone who tries to fix the TV or asks for the tools to do it is considered drunk. And now, here we have K. Sujin, suggesting that we should all view reality like someone who is drunk! LOL! (just kidding). I don't think that this is what the Buddha taught. Granted, viewing reality this way may encourage a certain level of detachment and understanding of anatta, but I don't think that either the detachment or understanding would go very deep. It would be based on an artifical construct in the mind rather than true wisdom. I imagine that an enlightened person would know that a picture of fruit and the actual fruit are two different things and wouldn't have to think otherwise. But, of course, I could be wrong about this. I would welcome any explanation (with as few Pali words as possible ;-) if you either feel so inclined. Metta, James 31941 From: Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pannatti (Concept) Hi, James - In a message dated 4/3/04 8:11:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > And now, here we have K. Sujin, suggesting that we should all view > reality like someone who is drunk! LOL! (just kidding). ======================= Just on this one point: I think this is a superb simile! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31942 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 4:26pm Subject: addiction to disputation "What the Teaching is not" Brahmajala Sutta, DN 1.1.18 "Whereas some ascetics and Brahmin remain addicted to disputation such as: 'You do not understand this doctrine and discipline -- I do! 'How could you understand this doctrine and discipline?' 'Your way is all wrong -- mine is right! 'I am consistent -- you are not!' 'You said last what you should have said first, and you said first what you should have said last!' 'What you took so long to think up has been refuted!' 'You argument has been over thrown, you are defeated!' 'Go on save your doctrine -- get out of that if you can!' the ascetic Gotama refrains from such disputation." "This, monks, the Tathagata understands: These view points thus grasped and adhered to will lead to such-and-such destinations in another world. This the Tathagata knows, and more, but he is not attached to that knowledge. And being thus unattached he has experienced for himself perfect peace, and having truly understood the arising and passing away of (sensations), their attraction and peril and the deliverance from them, the Tathagata is liberated without remainder." And what are these matters? (he enumerates 62 belief systems, opinions and concepts). 1.37 "There are, monks, other matters, profound, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, excellent, beyond mere thought, subtle, to be experienced by the wise, which the Tathagata, having realized them by his own super-knowledge (abinna), proclaims, and about which those who would truthfully praise the Tathagata would rightly speak." 3.71 "With regard too all of these..., they experience these (sensations) by repeated contact through the six sense bases; (sensation) conditions craving, craving conditions clinging; clinging conditions becoming; becoming conditions birth; birth conditions aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, sadness and {(dissatisfaction) dukkha}. "When a monk understands as they really are (vipassana) the arising and passing away of the six bases of contact, there attraction and peril, and the deliverance from them, he knows that which goes beyond all of these views. 31943 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beings and Their Cittas Friend James, You’ve said in various thoughtful posts on this thread to me and others: J: >If you want to convince me of your case, you are going to have to quote the Buddha. Quote a writing that begins with "And the Blessed One said…" and then you will get my undivided attention ;-)....< J: >Therefore, again, I ask for a quote from the Buddha which says that any of the worlds, including this world, exist only in the mind. For you can provide such a reference, I will willing admit a mistake....< J: >...To my understanding, a concept is something that doesn't have an objective reality; it is a pure thought with no basis in reality. But an object, even when mentally formed in the mind, does have a corresponding objective reality.....< ***** S: I hope you find the following sutta relevant or at least cause for useful and wise reflection. ..... SN35:68 (6) Samiddhi (4), Bodhi translation: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, might there be the world or the description of the world?”* “Where there is the eye, Samiddhi, where there are forms, eye-consciousness, things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world exists or the description of the world. “Where there is the ear....the mind**, where there are mental phenomena***, mind-consciousness****, things to be cognized by mind-consciousnes*****, there the world exists or the description of the world. “Where there is no eye, Samiddhi, no forms, no eye-consciousness, no things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world does not exist nor any description of the world. “Where there is no ear..no mind, no mental phenomena, no mind-consciousness, no things to be cognized by mind-consciousness, there the world does not exist nor any description of the world.” ***** S: Please also consider 35:82 (9) The World: “Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One...and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said ‘the world’?” “It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world.****** And what is disintegrating? The eye, bhikkhu, is disintegrating, forms...eye-consciousness....eye-contact....whatever feeling....ear...mind....mind-contact....that too is disintegrating. It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world.” S: Also consider 35: 85 (2) Empty is the World “Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One...and said to him: ‘Venerable sir, it is said, ‘Empty is the world, empty is the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said, ‘Empty is the world’?” “It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that is is said, ‘Empty is the world.’ And what is empty of self and of what belongs to self? The eye, Ananda, is empty of self and of what belongs to self. Forms....Eye-consciousness....Eye-contact.....Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither painful-nor-pleasant- that too is empty of self and of what belongs to self. “It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, ‘Empty is the world.’ “ ***** S: I cannot reflect enough on these suttas and all the wonderful other ones in Sa.laayatanasa.myutta, which contain the ‘heart’ of the Buddha’s teachings, as far as I’m concerned. All our worldly concerns, our lives, all that we hold dear exist just in these present dhammas, to be known for what they are with wisdom. Metta, Sarah * world ...description of the world - ‘loko.... loka pa~n~natti’ ** the mind -’mano’ *** mental phenomena - ‘dhammaa’ **** mind-consciousness - ‘mano vi~n~naa.na’ ***** things to be cognized by mind-consciousnes - ‘mano vi~n~naa.na vi~n~naatabbaa dhammaa’ ****** It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world - ‘lujjati ti kho bhikkhu tasmaa loko ti vuccati’ ================================================ 31944 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Robber Guests (was Re: new pages Phil --- Philip wrote: > > Hello all P: On the other hand, I read this morning in Abhidhamma in Daily Life the following, from Chapter 3 : "When we see something pleasant, it is a citta which is kusala vipaka the result of a wholesome deed we performed...every time we experience a pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala vipaka." So does this mean that kusala vipaka that arises from a wholesome deed gives rise in turn to akusala dhamma? J: It depends what you mean by 'gives rise to'. It might be more correct to say, 'is followed by', since it is really our accumulated latent tendencies that are the main culprit here. It is the accumulated latent tendency (anusaya) of attachment that makes that the 'natural' (or automatic) response to pleasant object, not because of any 'rule' relating to pleasant object. P: Could panna possibly play a role in preventing an automatic arising of akusala dhamma from a pleasant object? J: There are 2 things to bear in mind here. The first is that the 'automatic' arising of akusala dhamma following the experience of a pleasant object is not in itself an obstacle to the development of the path. The second is that the development of panna, which is the main thread of our discussion here, may or may not manifest by a lessening incidence of the automatic arising of akusala. So in short, we should not be to concerned about this aspect. P: Otherwise it would seem to this beginner that if wholesome deeds end up giving rise to akusala dhamma what's the point of doing 'em? ;) (I know that the only benefit we should hope for from our practice is to get rid of defilements.) J: Well apart from what I've said above, wholesome deeds are in any event a necessary support for the development of the path, both as a basis for rebirth as a human being and to provide a generally conducive environment for the development of the path. Without reasonably good health and supportive upbringing in this lifetime, for example, there may not be the same strong conditions to hear and consider the teachings. Jon 31945 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Rob M Hi, nice to see you back again. --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Ken O, ... > As we discussed learning Pali, I mentioned that the phrase "vineyya > loke abhijjhadomanassam" is usually literally translated as "having > put away covetousness and grief for the world". I gave this as an > example of how knowing how to translate Pali literally was not > enough > to gain the full understanding of the meaning. I believe that this > phrase could also be translated as "having conquered the first two > hindrances (sensous desire and ill will)". Bhikkhu Bodi mentions that > the commentary supports this second translation while Soma Thera > glosses over this point. This is an interesting point which, as you say, would put some parts of the sutta in a different light. Do you have a reference for Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments? Thanks. Jon 31946 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi Howard, Larry and Sarah, Larry and Howard, enjoying your dialogues, have more of it! You give me good reminders. I never considered the cittas much when breathing, but on the other hand I know it does not help to try and catch them. Sarah, a question for Bgk: I understood blowing the air out is not breathing, it is blowing. There are questions sometimes. Breathing through the mouth? A lot is unclear to me. I would like to hear more about it. But we have to differentiate breath as meditation suibject as described in the Vis. which is very special, very precise, so that it leads to detachment from sense objects. Now we are talking about breathing in a wider sense. It conditions tangible object at many places in the body, and sure I take these for granted, but they can be objects of awareness. But when I start to think of this I know that I am thinking and selecting, and this is not awareness which is aware of whatever presents itself. There is a whole area here for discussion. But I think A. Sujin may answer: do not cling to words. Larry:The arahat does not have kusala cittas or akusala cittas. He has mahakiriyacittas. I also want to remark that in the higher jhanas breathing stops. As to citta that lets go, this can have many meanings, it can also be done with attachment. Like: how good to relax, I let go. Howard: op 02-04-2004 16:58 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The easier issue is the out-breath: The out-breath has the in-breath > as its primary cause, and the out-breath does not normally depend on > desire/will (though it will if one tries to hold his/her breath), but under > normal > circumstances, without doing anything to the contrary, the pressure of the > air-filled lungs, plus possibly gravity, simply pushes the air out. N: I could add that also dosa can condition inbreath: a narrow escape in the car, fear. There are many other cittas that play their part, since they arise and fall away so fast. Conceit can condition breathing: I am doing so well. Howard wrote about breath in the satipatthanasutta: < Yes, I do have a thought on this. As I recall, in the sutta one is instructed to attend to the "initialization conditions" and the "termination conditions", to coin two phrases, but what they are is not mentioned. I suspect they are not mentioned, because they are being left to the meditator/person-paying-attention to discover directly for him/herself what they are and to note the conditioned nature of the in-breath and out-breath.> N: this is a question of translation. "initialization conditions" and the "termination conditions": samudaya dhammaanupassii vaa kaayasmi.m viharati: he dwells contemplating origination dhammas in the body. The Co: he sees the conditions for the arising of breath. vaya dhammaanupassii vaa kaayasmi.m viharati, he dwells contemplating dissolution dhammas in the body. <..Through the ending of the coarse body, the nasal aperture and the mind there comes to be the ending of the respirations. The person whop sees in this way is he who lives contemplating dissolution dhammas in the body.> Thus, Howard, as you say, these words refer to the conditioned nature of the in-breath and out-breath and one has to discover for oneself. Subco: origination is that from which suffering arises. These passages point to insight. They are repeated after each application of mindfulness. At the second stage of insight one sees more clearly the dependent origination: the arising of dhammas because there are conditions for their arising; and the ceasing of dhamma: when there are no longer conditions, they cease. Nina. 31947 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg]satipatthanasutta Dear Rob M, op 03-04-2004 16:58 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > As we discussed learning Pali, I mentioned that the phrase "vineyya > loke abhijjhadomanassam" is usually literally translated as "having > put away covetousness and grief for the world". I gave this as an > example of how knowing how to translate Pali literally was not enough > to gain the full understanding of the meaning. I believe that this > phrase could also be translated as "having conquered the first two > hindrances (sensous desire and ill will)". Bhikkhu Bodi mentions that > the commentary supports this second translation while Soma Thera > glosses over this point. N: Yes I also found this always difficult. Loke, in the world, usually means the five khandhas, you know. In many suttas and also in the Co to this sutta, we have: the world, namely the five khandhas. I read in B. Soma: and then: quoted from the Vibhanga: (p. 56) Now the hindrances. To eradicate these one has to be a non-returner. But satipatthana is the development of the mundane eightfold Path, not yet lokuttara. We are beginners now and it is the task of fully developed panna to eradicate them stage by stage. We have to take into account that some people could develop jhana, subdued the hindrances, and then developed vipassana. By samatha all the hindrances are temporarily subdued. Not just two of them. We read in the Co. to this sutta that the two hindrances mentioned are representative for all five, they are predominant. Others do not develop jhana, they develop only vipassana. The Co speaks about yogic power and skill in meditation. Now, as said before, meditation has two meanings: samatha and vipassana. When we read about the meditation subject we have to remember that in this sutta it means satipatthana. (Before we made a study with Larry of the whole Co). Yogic skill: we read about the yogaavacaara, translated as the meditator. It is actually the citta that develops understanding. I read in the Co: This makes sense to me. See also Dispeller I, p. 277. It is said that another interpretation is: <... and the fruit of development [should be understood as states] by "the putting away of covetousness and grief." As I understand, the result of satipatthana is referred to by these words. I heard once from A. Sujin: there should not be attachment in satipatthana by way of selecting an object. For example: you want to have this or this as object of awareness. And in the case of ill will or aversion: you dislike this or that object. You may think: Oh no, not lobha, noy dosa, not this object, these are not worthy objects of awareness. Then you are off track. No way to realize the truth. Truthfulness is indispensable. Some remarks: I see it all as momentary overcoming. Desire for example presents itself. When there is no selection, sati sampaja~n~na (sati and panna) arises and has this desire as object, it can be seen as only a nama. If we do not understand lobha, see it as it is, it cannot be eradicated. No matter how much we dislike this object (we find ourselves too good for it), aversion towards it has been overcome and understanding of it is developing. During that short moment there is wise attention and the citta is kusala citta. Pleasant feeling may present itself. Instead of being carried away there can be wise attention and it can be seen as only a nama. Pali certainly helps me, I do not want to be dependent on notes selected by someone else, no matter how much I admire his great work.The notes cannot be otherwise but selective. I want to read in Pali the Co and as far as I can the subco. At the same time I mind A.Sujin's warning not to cling to words. We always have to check ourselves: is this according to reality? Nina. 31948 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 5:29am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 71 Vis. 71. These, firstly, are the material instances that have been handed down in the texts.(30) But in the Commentary others have been added as follows: matter as power, matter as procreation, matter as birth, matter as sickness; and, in the opinion of some, matter as torpor. N: The monks of the Abhayagiri monastery had opinions different from the Mahaavihaara (Great Monastery, where Buddhaghosa was residing). The opinions on rupas of the monks of Abhayagiri were rejected. They wanted to add other rupas to the twentyeight rupas as handed down in the texts. We see here that Buddhaghosa was most conscientious in rendering other opinions. At other places we can read: some teachers say... (keci, some). The Tiika gives a long explanation about torpor, middha which the monks of Abhayagiri said to be an additional rupa. (See also Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 61). Vis: In the first place, 'matter as torpor' is rejected as non-existent by the words: 'Surely thou art a sage enlightened, there are no hindrances in thee' (Sn. 541). N: It is explained that it must be mental, a cetasika, since it is one of the hindrances that should be overcome. There is a discussion about the sleep of a Buddha or arahat which is not caused by any defilements such as sloth and torpor. The Tiika renders the discussion: ...Yadi middhassa ruupabhaava.m na sampa.ticchatha, katha.m bhagavato niddaa. If you do not accept the material state of torpor, how is there sleep for the Blessed One? Middha~nhi ³niddaapacalaayikaa²ti-aadinaa vibha"nge vibhattattaa niddaati? .... Is sleep not classified in the Vibhanga as torpor with the words, sleepy and weary²? Niddaa bhagavato sariiragilaaniyaa, na middhena. The sleep of the Blessed One is because of bodily exhaustion, not because of torpor. Saa ca natthiiti na sakkaa vattu.m ³pi.t.thi me aagilaayati, tamaha.m aayamissaamii²ti (ma. ni. 2.22) vacanato. If this is not so he could not say the words, my back is weary, I will stretch it.² Tena vutta.m ³niddaa bhagavato sariiragilaaniyaa, na middhenaa²ti. Therefore it is said, ³The sleep of the Blessed One is because of bodily exhaustion, not because of torpor.² **** Vis: As to the rest, 'matter as sickness' is included by ageing and by impermanence; 'matter as birth' by growth and continuity; 'matter as procreation' by the water element; and 'matter as power' by the air element. So taken separately not even one of these exists: this was the agreement reached. So this derived matter of twenty-four sorts and the aforesaid matter of the primary elements, which is of four sorts, together amount to twenty-eight sorts, neither more nor less. Pali Vis: iti ida.m catuviisatividha.m upaadaaruupa.m pubbe vutta.m catubbidha.m bhuutaruupa~ncaati a.t.thaviisatividha.m ruupa.m hoti anuunamanadhika.m. Tiika: ³Itii²ti ida.m ³a.t.thaviisatividhan²ti iminaa sambandhitabba.m, As to the expression, this, this should be connected with the expression, twentyfour kinds, iminaa vuttakkamena a.t.thaviisatividha.m hotiiti. by this procedure that was mentiond there are twentyeight kinds (of materiality). So ca kho paa.liya.m aagatanayenevaati anuunataa veditabbaa. And this should truly be known as being complete since it is handed down in this manner in the texts. Anadhikabhaavo pana dassito eva. This is shown as being indeed not more (than that). ***** English: The Tiika renders the discussion: If you do not accept the material state of torpor, how is there sleep for the Blessed One?... Is sleep not classified in the Vibhanga as torpor with the words, sleepy and weary²? The sleep of the Blessed One is because of bodily exhaustion, not because of torpor. If this is not so he could not say the words, my back is weary, I will stretch it.² Therefore it is said, ³The sleep of the Blessed One is because of bodily exhaustion, not because of torpor.² **** Vis text: So this derived matter of twenty-four sorts and the aforesaid matter of the primary elements, which is of four sorts, together amount to twenty-eight sorts, neither more nor less. Tiika: As to the expression, this, this should be connected with the expression, twentyfour kinds, by this procedure that was mentiond there are twentyeight kinds (of materiality). And this should truly be known as being complete since it is handed down in this manner in the texts. This is shown as being indeed not more (than that). ***** Remarks: The Tiika gives an additional emphasis to the text of the Vis. about the number of rupas as exactly twentyeight. There are not more than these twentyeight, as the monks of Abhayagiri suggested. They are all rupas, realities, not ideas or concepts. Nina. 31949 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 5:43am Subject: Recollection of the body (as elements) Nina Sarah mentioned your request to pass on any snippets from the recordings I listen to on my walks. At the moment I'm listening to the 'Satipatthana' series, 3 CD's (MP3), going through the Satipatthana Sutta. I think the talks were given quite some time ago; you've probably listened to them before on cassette. There was a lot on breathing, and now I'm on the rest of the body section. Yesterday I heard it said, in answer to a listener's question (the question itself wasn't audible), that as regards recollection of foulness of the parts of the body, only the elements of earth and water are included, i.e., not those of fire and wind. I looked it up in Vism which mentions the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta M.140 and others (see Vism VIII, 60). In that sutta the internal earth and water elements are described in terms of the parts of the body, while the fire and wind elements are described in terms of digestion, breathing etc (i.e., other than parts of the body). This of course makes sense when you think about it. I always find it amazing how much of 'the world' is in reality so few different rupa dhammas, and this is another instance of that phenomenon. Jon PS Looking forward to your series on the last Bangkok trip. How's it coming on? 31950 From: Ken O Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg]satipatthanasutta Hi Rob and Nina To me the Co is right because the MN10 para 3 is like the brief summary of the sutta. We can see that in para 2, is about the realisation of Nibbana and how the four frames of mindfullness achieved this goal, hence it must be the eradication of the five hindrances and not two. There are always two ways to look at the breathing portion of this sutta. For those who believe in conventional reality, the breathing in long and short, arising and vanishing are instructions of meditation. For those who believe paramathas dhamma, then the reality of arising and vanishing is so fleeting, hence this meditation is for those who are highly develop in panna. I think it is difficult to convince a lot of practitioner nowadays that satipatthana as describe in the suttas are paramatthas dhammas rather then conventional reality. One does not see that when we comtemplate on the breathing, we can then able to delimite the rupas from namas, then only with the right discernment of materiality, we are able to discern immateriality, then right understanding will arise. Even if one starts as samatha meditation till jhanas in the pretext of this sutta, eventually one has to notice that this sutta says, arising and vanishing (which represent the three characteristics) which leads to insight. Without coming out of jhanas, and discern dhammas with the right understanding, I dont think one will know body as body, feeling as feeling. Ken O 31951 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 11:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Beings and Their Cittas Friend Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Friend James, > > You've said in various thoughtful posts on this thread to me and others: > > J: >If you want to convince me of your case, you are going to have to > quote the Buddha. Quote a writing that begins with "And the Blessed One > said…" and then you will get my undivided attention ;-)....< > > J: >Therefore, again, I ask for a quote from the Buddha which says that > any of the worlds, including this world, exist only in the mind. For you > can provide such a reference, I will willing admit a mistake....< > > J: >...To my understanding, a concept is something that doesn't have an > objective reality; it is a pure thought with no basis in reality. But an > object, even when mentally formed in the mind, does have a corresponding > objective reality.....< > ***** > > S: I hope you find the following sutta relevant or at least cause for > useful and wise reflection. > ..... > SN35:68 (6) Samiddhi (4), Bodhi translation: > > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Raajagaha in the Bamboo > Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Then the Venerable Samiddhi approached the > Blessed One....and said to him:> > > "Venerable sir, it is said, `the world, the world.' In what way, venerable > sir, might there be the world or the description of the world?"* > > "Where there is the eye, Samiddhi, where there are forms, > eye-consciousness, things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the > world exists or the description of the world. > > "Where there is the ear....the mind**, where there are mental > phenomena***, mind-consciousness****, things to be cognized by > mind-consciousnes*****, there the world exists or the description of the > world. > > "Where there is no eye, Samiddhi, no forms, no eye-consciousness, no > things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world does not exist > nor any description of the world. > > "Where there is no ear..no mind, no mental phenomena, no > mind-consciousness, no things to be cognized by mind- consciousness, there > the world does not exist nor any description of the world." > ***** > S: Please also consider 35:82 (9) The World: > > "Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One...and said to him: > "Venerable sir, it is said, `the world, the world.' In what way, venerable > sir, is it said `the world'?" > > "It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world.****** > And what is disintegrating? The eye, bhikkhu, is disintegrating, > forms...eye-consciousness....eye-contact....whatever > feeling....ear...mind....mind-contact....that too is disintegrating. It is > disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world." > > S: Also consider 35: 85 (2) Empty is the World > > "Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One...and said to him: > `Venerable sir, it is said, `Empty is the world, empty is the world.' In > what way, venerable sir, is it said, `Empty is the world'?" > > "It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self > that is is said, `Empty is the world.' And what is empty of self and of > what belongs to self? The eye, Ananda, is empty of self and of what > belongs to self. Forms....Eye-consciousness....Eye- contact.....Whatever > feeling arises with mind-contact as condition - whether pleasant or > painful or neither painful-nor-pleasant- that too is empty of self and of > what belongs to self. > > "It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self > that it is said, `Empty is the world.' " > ***** > S: I cannot reflect enough on these suttas and all the wonderful other > ones in Sa.laayatanasa.myutta, which contain the `heart' of the Buddha's > teachings, as far as I'm concerned. All our worldly concerns, our lives, > all that we hold dear exist just in these present dhammas, to be known for > what they are with wisdom. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > * world ...description of the world - `loko.... loka pa~n~natti' > ** the mind -'mano' > *** mental phenomena - `dhammaa' > **** mind-consciousness - `mano vi~n~naa.na' > ***** things to be cognized by mind-consciousnes - `mano vi~n~naa.na > vi~n~naatabbaa dhammaa' > ****** It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world - > `lujjati ti kho bhikkhu tasmaa loko ti vuccati' > ================================================ Thank you for the quotes from the Salayatanasamyutta. Before I can respond I am going to have to read and study this entire sutta in depth. After all, the entire sutta is `connected' and each section is important to the overall understanding. However, it is 126 pages long with 35 pages of commentarial notes!! ;-)) It will take me some time to study the entire sutta and formulate a response. Please be patient while I work on it. Thanks. Metta, James 31952 From: Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beings and Their Cittas Hi, Sarah (and James) - In a message dated 4/4/04 4:55:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Friend James, > > You’ve said in various thoughtful posts on this thread to me and others: > > J: >If you want to convince me of your case, you are going to have to > quote the Buddha. Quote a writing that begins with "And the Blessed One > said…" and then you will get my undivided attention ;-)....< > > J: >Therefore, again, I ask for a quote from the Buddha which says that > any of the worlds, including this world, exist only in the mind. For you > can provide such a reference, I will willing admit a mistake....< > > J: >...To my understanding, a concept is something that doesn't have an > objective reality; it is a pure thought with no basis in reality. But an > object, even when mentally formed in the mind, does have a corresponding > objective reality.....< > ***** > > S: I hope you find the following sutta relevant or at least cause for > useful and wise reflection. > ..... > SN35:68 (6) Samiddhi (4), Bodhi translation: > > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Raajagaha in the Bamboo > Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Then the Venerable Samiddhi approached the > Blessed One....and said to him:> > ============================= You may find it amusing in an ironic way (or you may not! ;-)) that I have just saved this post of yours in my "filing cabinet" under the title 'Phenomenalism in the Suttas'!! In any case, I thoroughly enjoyed this post of yours, and I consider the material you quoted there well worth saving! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31953 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 11:46am Subject: Re: Tiika Vis. XIV, 71 There are not more than these twentyeight, as the monks of Abhayagiri suggested. They are all rupas, realities, not ideas or concepts. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, May I ask some questions here in connection with 28 rupa? 1. What are upacaya rupa and santati rupa? 2. When do they arise? 3. How long do they last? 4. When do they vanish? 5. When can they not arise? 6. What is the difference between upacara rupa and santati rupa? 7. Can they arise together in a single rupakalapa? 8. Can they arise separately? 9. What are the characteristic, function, manifestation and immediate cause of each of these two rupas? I will be looking forward to hearing from you. With much respect, Htoo 31954 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Friend Howard, Howard: I think that your idea is psychologically very clever! I think it is a great mindfulness technique - a really effective skillful means. I applaud you for taking such a proactive, well thought out, and serious approach to right effort. James: Thank you for the kind and encouraging words. I also feel that Buddhist practice should be proactive and, as I wrote before in this group, `I am a work in progress'. However, I don't think that this matter is entirely one-sided. Others should also be proactive and not over-sensitive: MN 2 "All the Taints": "And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html Metta, James 31955 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: Beings and Their Cittas Friend Howard, Howard: You may find it amusing in an ironic way (or you may not! ;- )) that I have just saved this post of yours in my "filing cabinet" under the title 'Phenomenalism in the Suttas'!! In any case, I thoroughly enjoyed this post of yours, and I consider the material you quoted there well worth saving! James: LOL! Well, I wouldn't get too excited just yet. I have already found this commentarial note: Note 6: Spk: The all (sabba) is fourfold: (i) the all-inclusive all (sabbasabba)), i.e., everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha's knowledge of omniscience; (ii) the all of the sense bases (ayatanasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the four planes, (iii) the all of personal identity (sakkayasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the three planes; and (iv) the partial all (padesabba), i.e., the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from (i) to (iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. In this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended. James: Obviously, the all of the sense bases and their objects isn't the all-inclusive all. Metta, James 31956 From: Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beings and Their Cittas Hi, James - In a message dated 4/4/04 3:00:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Howard, > > Howard: You may find it amusing in an ironic way (or you may not! ;- > )) that I have just saved this post of yours in my "filing cabinet" > under the title 'Phenomenalism in the Suttas'!! In any case, I > thoroughly enjoyed this post of yours, and I consider the material > you quoted there well worth saving! > > James: LOL! Well, I wouldn't get too excited just yet. I have > already found this commentarial note: > > Note 6: Spk: The all (sabba) is fourfold: (i) the all-inclusive all > (sabbasabba)), i.e., everything knowable, all of which comes into > range of the Buddha's knowledge of omniscience; (ii) the all of the > sense bases (ayatanasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the four planes, > (iii) the all of personal identity (sakkayasabba), i.e. the > phenomena of the three planes; and (iv) the partial all (padesabba), > i.e., the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from (i) to > (iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. In > this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended. > > James: Obviously, the all of the sense bases and their objects isn't > the all-inclusive all. > > Metta, James > =========================== What is obvious to me is that I have seen no such 4-fold characterization in the suttas of "the all" or any indication in the suttas that when the Buddha defined "the all" in the Sabba Sutta he meant anything other than exactly what he said. Look, in particular, at the explicit cautioning at the end of that sutta: "Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." So, the bottom line is: Why should I be impressed by that commentary? They don't even pay attention to the Buddha's admonishment! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31957 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 2:57pm Subject: Powerful Friends Coming Together ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Mind and matter work together. But mind always leads matter. Mind is the leader. Citta is the leader. It leads all co-existing and co-arising dhamma including cetasikas and rupa dhamma. If mind becomes powerful it can accomplish everything. At that time mind or citta becomes the base of all success. It is cittiddhipada or citta as a base of all success. As citta becomes a strong leader, the meditator is always on the mood that he wants to stay in mahasatipatthana all the time. Because he knows everything is impermanent, he does not strongly attached to anything any more and he wants to void all. All are uncontrollable and as he can see that he tries to realize the matter deeply. So he stays in mahasatipatthana from waking up in the bed to going asleep again at the end of the day. This long stay makes him developing of a good mindfulness. Mindfulness always leads him through out the day and night and nearly at all time. When sati arises, he remembers to discern things as they really are and he goes deeply into investigation nearly all time from waking up in the bed to going to asleep in the bed again. This makes him liking of the practice and as time goes by, joy or rapture suffuses him and he is filled with joy and rapture. He is utterly delighted as he can see the nature and its implication. As he likes every moment he is fully energized and he is full of joy and rapture. This likeness makes him untired & inexhaustible and he will be doing mahasatipatthana whenever he is conscious. As he is now well stuck to dhamma he feels that he is well calm. He can see how consciousness arises in connection with arising rupa like colour, sound, smell, taste, touch and thoughts. He knows that he is well transuilized. He is very peaceful as these noting mind happen all the time while he is alert and conscious and attentive to surroundings inside and outsidewise. He knows that there arises passaddhi or tranquility. When tranquility vanishes and does not arise at a moment, he also knows that tranquility does not arise in him. He also knows how the tranquility which has not arisen yet comes to arise in him. And he knows it arising and also knows when it vanishes. Tranquility is dhamma. It is a nature. Tranquility is not him or his. It is impermanent. As it is impermanent it is not to be attached. It is uncontrollable and it is anatta. May all beings meditate and meet with peace and tranquility. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... 31958 From: robmoult Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] breath Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > I believe that this > > phrase could also be translated as "having conquered the first two > > hindrances (sensous desire and ill will)". Bhikkhu Bodi mentions > that > > the commentary supports this second translation while Soma Thera > > glosses over this point. > > This is an interesting point which, as you say, would put some parts > of the sutta in a different light. Do you have a reference for > Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments? Thanks. In his translation of the Majjhima Nikaya, BB has the following footnote (p1189): "Covetousness and grief," MA [Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha - Buddhaghosa's commentary] says, stands for sensual desire and ill will, the principal hindrances that must be overcome for the practice to succeed. Metta, Rob M :-) 31959 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 9:14pm Subject: FW: satipatthanasutta: abhijjhadomanassa Dear all, a lovely reminder from Suan who will help us with abhijjhadomanassa. Nina. ---------- Van: "suanluzaw" Datum: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 08:48:14 -0500 Aan: nina van gorkom Onderwerp: Re: satipatthanasutta: abhijjhadomanassa Dear Nina How are you? Glad to hear from you. I have currently a few diversions to attend to such as renewal of public liability insurance for 2004/2005 for the Metaschool of Bodhiology. I do not forget to discuss Baddekaratta Suttam Pali terms you mentioned recently. Of course, I will also discuss the expression "vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassam". For now, how about pondering informally on the above expression as the Buddha's advice to remove obsession with and frustration about / habitual reaction to the five psychosomatic aggregates. After all, Satipa.t.thaana Suttam is teaching us to treat the five aggregates as neutral objects for wise observation. ________ __ __ You could forward this brief discussion to DSG if you think it useful as it is. __________ __ __ With regards, Suan 31960 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 9:14pm Subject: correction, a typo. Hi Philip and all, a typo in my post to Philip: at end:< Through the development of vipassana one comes to know that life is only in one moment, one moment of *understanding* an object through one of the six doors. Should be: *experiencing*. 31961 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - Covetousness and grief Rob M (and Nina) --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > In his translation of the Majjhima Nikaya, BB has the following > footnote (p1189): > > "Covetousness and grief," MA [Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha - > Buddhaghosa's commentary] says, stands for sensual desire and ill > will, the principal hindrances that must be overcome for the > practice to succeed. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Thanks for this. I've checked the Soma Thera translation and have found a fairly direct reference to the same passage. I agree with Nina that in fact momentary overcoming (or abandoning) is what is meant. Furthermore, as I read the commentary, the overcoming of covetousness and grief is the outcome of the arousing of mindfulness, and not vice versa. This is possibly a different slant to the Bhikkhu Bodhi note, which appears to be a summary of, rather than a direct quote from, the commentary. Jon From Soma Thera's translation 'The Way of Mindfulness': *********************** Sutta: "What are the four [Arousings of Mindfulness]? "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; ... Comm: After the pointing out of the things that make up the condition connected with the Arousing of Mindfulness through body-contemplation, there is the pointing out of the things that make up the condition which should be abandoned in this practice with the words, "having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief" = Vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. ... "Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]. Sub-Comm: Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness is pointed out by the commentator here. Comm: "In this world." In just this body. Here the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling. As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of clinging are the world." Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense desire and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the hindrances is stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief. ... By the instruction dealing with the overcoming of covetousness and grief, yogic power and yogic skill are shown. *********************** 31962 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 2:23am Subject: Why is it so? Dear Group, Nine Buddhist monks are now Members of Parliament in Sri Lanka. What DO they think they're doing? Didn't the Buddha give up the chance to govern and administer worldly affairs? http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1080899.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31963 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg]satipatthanasutta Ken O --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Rob and Nina ... > Even if one starts as samatha meditation till jhanas in the pretext > of this sutta, eventually one has to notice that this sutta says, > arising and vanishing (which represent the three characteristics) > which leads to insight. Without coming out of jhanas, and discern > dhammas with the right understanding, I dont think one will know > body > as body, feeling as feeling. I think you've put it in a nutshell here, Ken. Breathing is an object of samatha bhavana, so the initial references in the Satipatthana Sutta are to developed samatha with breath as object. However, as you say, the sutta branches away from breath as object of samatha to mindfulness of dhammas. This I think is to indicate how satipatthana can be developed in conjunction with samatha with breath as object. Since breath as object of samatha is a concept (long breath, short breath, etc), the development of that alone can never lead to insight. As we know, insight must have a dhamma as its object. Jon 31964 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg]satipatthanasutta Friend Jon, Jon: Since breath as object of samatha is a concept (long breath, short breath, etc), the development of that alone can never lead to insight. As we know, insight must have a dhamma as its object. James: This is a very important statement. Could you provide some evidence from the Nikayas that the Buddha said this? From my understanding, the Buddha, Ven. Ananda, and Ven. Sariputta said the opposite of this in different suttas. They each said that concentration and mindfulness of the breath can lead all the way to Nibbana. I could quote a lot of suttas to show this but I think you have the burden of proof to support your claim since you have made it first :-). Metta, James 31965 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pannatti (Concept) James Hope you don't mind me coming in on this thread. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Friends Sarah and Rob M, James: Here we have a picture of some fruit and then some actual fruit and both are to be considered concepts of `fruit'. ... Jon: Minor point: both are to be considered concepts. James: Granted, at some level the actual fruit that one sees is a concept because the colors and shades are assembled in the mind to create the recognition of `fruit', and the same fruit that I see may not match the same fruit that you see because we each have various levels of delusion in our minds, but I still don't understand why this is important to consider. ... Jon: It's important to consider because that's the way things really are at this very moment, for each of us. It is solely from the 'raw data' of the various sensory inputs that a world of people and things is created (or, as you aptly put it, assembled in the mind). We assume that the idea of people and things thus created corresponds to 'reality out there', but that is still conjecture o our part; the only reality capable of being verified is the actual moments of sensory data experienced and the accompanying and subsequent consciousness and mind states. James: Granted, viewing reality this way may encourage a certain level of detachment and understanding of anatta, but I don't think that either the detachment or understanding would go very deep. It would be based on an artifical construct in the mind rather than true wisdom. Jon: That indeed would be so as long as the understanding remains at an intellectual level. But the teachings about satipatthana and vipassana are given to demonstrate the possibility of direct realization of these truths, by a gradually deepening understanding of the presently occurring dhammas. James: I imagine that an enlightened person would know that a picture of fruit and the actual fruit are two different things and wouldn't have to think otherwise. Jon: Absolutely; the enlightened person does not lose the conventional perspective, but he no longer takes it for something that it isn't. James: But, of course, I could be wrong about this. I would welcome any explanation (with as few Pali words as possible ;-) if you either feel so inclined. Jon: And hardly a word of Pali (none you wouldn't use yourseld, I think ;-)) Jon 31966 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 4:21am Subject: Re: Pannatti (Concept) Friend Jon, Jon: Hope you don't mind me coming in on this thread. James: Of course I don't mind. You and I haven't exchanged views for quite a long time. Jon: That indeed would be so as long as the understanding remains at an intellectual level. But the teachings about satipatthana and vipassana are given to demonstrate the possibility of direct realization of these truths, by a gradually deepening understanding of the presently occurring dhammas. James: But what K. Sujin was writing about was purely intellectual. She didn't write anything about satipatthana and vipassana, she wrote about an intellectual construct. She described a way to view the world in an artificial manner in order to somehow force wisdom. If I start viewing everything as a concept is that going to make me enlightened? Wouldn't that even make the viewing itself a concept? Concept piled on concept piled on concept. Where does it all end? I don't think this is what the Buddha taught. He taught to rid the mind of defilements (desire, ill-will, and ignorance) and then reality will be viewed properly. He didn't teach to somehow view reality like an enlightened person would and, consequently, that will make one become enlightened. This approach is fake to me and not what the Buddha taught. You didn't give me a sutta reference like I requested in this post, where the Buddha said that everything should be viewed as concepts of an identical nature (thanks for not using a bunch of Pali though!! ;-)). Jon: Absolutely; the enlightened person does not lose the conventional perspective, but he no longer takes it for something that it isn't. James: And what is it not? How do you know? Are you claiming to be enlightened or at least close enough to know this? I am not criticizing you, I just need to consider the source of this information. After all, you and I both have a lot of delusion in our minds- how can we determine what an enlightened person knows? Jon: And hardly a word of Pali (none you wouldn't use yourseld, I think ;-)) James: Again, thanks for that! Now, if I could just get you into the habit of quoting sutta references! ;-)) After all, the Nikayas are a more pure source of insight than either of our opinions. Metta, James 31967 From: robmoult Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 4:26am Subject: Illusion of Control Hi Ken H (and members of DSG - NAG), The subject of the illusion of control has found its way into a number of our exchanges (meditation, free will and most recently mudita), so I am going to start a new thread to focus on this subject. Let us start by finding common ground with which we are both comfortable. There are actions, but the actor is an illusion. There is kamma but there is no creator of kamma. There is result of kamma (vipaka) but there is none to receive the vipaka (see SN XII.17). I think that we agree so far. Now let us move from theory to practical. Each week, the five aggregates commonly called 'Rob M' studies the Dhamma. There are two motivations for this study: 1. A love of the dhamma (this could be called unprompted, spontaneous, automatic; asankharikam) 2. Fear of being unprepared to teach his Abhidhamma class on Sunday morning (this could be called prompted, sasankharikam) As it says in the Bhumija Sutta (Mn 126), results come from proper practice, not from intentions. As noted in Vism XVII 102, akusala actions can lead to kusala mental states (through both object condition and natural decisive support condition). Now since the act (studying the Dhamma) is the same, the nature of the kamma (kusala or akusala) will be the same. The "weight" of the kamma created will depend on the motivation: 1. Unprompted cittas create weightier kamma than prompted cittas 2. Cittas with pleasant feeling (piti) create weightier kamma than cittas with neutral feeling Based on the points above, it seems that: 1. Wholesome actions, even if they arise because of a delusion of a self that has control, still create good kamma 2. Weightier kamma may be created if the wholesome actions arise without the delusion of a self that has control Though intellectually I know that there is no self that has control, I have not yet uprooted self-view (I have not yet reached Sotapanna stage). This means that the good kamma accumulated is not as "weighty" as it might have been. Nevertheless, it is still good kamma. I hope that we agree so far. The recent tongue-in-cheek examples of shaving my head to improve my lap-time as a competitive swimmer, or the novice Dhamma teacher getting stuck on how to proceed without words are meant to express that I have a long way to go on my journey. For now, I can accept wholesome actions, even if they arise because of a delusion of a self that has control, because they still create good kamma. Intellectually, I know that I must abandon this raft after I have crossed the river, but for now the delusion of a self that has control serves a good purpose. Somebody recently coined the phrase, "DSG - Non Action Group (NAG)". I suspect that it was a joke, but it shows that a focus on "no self to control" can possibly lead to inaction and fatalism - clearly contrary to the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha often encouraged monks to take action. The last words of the Buddha (SN VI.15) were, "I exhort you, monks: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." The sixth step of the Noble Eightfold Path is "Right Effort". Consider SN XLV.8 which is full of exhortations to take action: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." The Buddha never said that "Right Effort" was only for those who had abandoned self-view. As worldlings, we will travel the Noble Eightfold Path with self-view; the delusion that there is a self. Of course, when a Sotapanna performs "Right Effort", it is done without self-view and the kammic weight is much greater. Some DSG members have challenged the idea of meditation because it is rooted in an idea of a self that can control. I accept the idea that meditation can be rooted in an idea of a self that can control, but I reject the premise that this is justification for not meditating. Meditation is one form of mental development (bhavana); it is not the only form of bhavana but it is one form. If one has the accumulations for this form of bhavana, then it should be encouraged and supported. Even if this form of bhavana is performed with self-view (almost inevitable), it still brings good results. Ken H, please help me to understand where we disagree. Metta, Rob M :-) 31968 From: robmoult Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - Covetousness and grief Hi Jon (and Nina), I realize that a Dhamma discussion should not be conducted like haggling at a fish market, but.... tell ya what, let's meet half way :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M (and Nina) > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... > > In his translation of the Majjhima Nikaya, BB has the following > > footnote (p1189): > > > > "Covetousness and grief," MA [Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha - > > Buddhaghosa's commentary] says, stands for sensual desire and ill > > will, the principal hindrances that must be overcome for the > > practice to succeed. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > Thanks for this. I've checked the Soma Thera translation and have > found a fairly direct reference to the same passage. > > I agree with Nina that in fact momentary overcoming (or abandoning) > is what is meant. > > Furthermore, as I read the commentary, the overcoming of covetousness > and grief is the outcome of the arousing of mindfulness, and not vice > versa. This is possibly a different slant to the Bhikkhu Bodhi note, > which appears to be a summary of, rather than a direct quote from, > the commentary. ===== I will agree with your first point that the Sutta refers to the temporary abandoning overcoming of the hindrances (not the uprooting of the hindrances). I ask you to agree with my point that this is a pre-condition to satipatthana rather than an outcome. I base this on two points: 1. The text certainly reads this way (at least to me) 2. Accepting the alternative is contradictory; it would imply from the introduction that satipatthana leads to the overcoming of hindrances (and as we know, this leads to jhanas) wheras the conclusion clearly states that satipatthana leads to sainthood (non- returning) So what'cha say, we gotta deal? :-) 31969 From: robmoult Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi James and all, The term pannatti is not included in Nyanatiloka's Dictionary. I found the following entry in the 1778 page PTS Pali Dictionary: Paññatti (f.) [fr. paññapeti, cp. paññatta] making known, manifestation, description, designation, name, idea, notion, concept. On term see Cpd. 3 sq., 198, 199; Kvu trsln 1; Dhs trsln 340. -- M III.68; S III.71; IV.38 (mara-), 39 (satta-, dukkha-, loka-); A II.17; V.190; Ps II.171, 176; Pug 1; Dhs I.309; Nett 1 sq., 38, 188; KhA 102, 107; DA I.139; SnA 445, 470; PvA 200. The spelling also occurs as pannatti, e. g. at J II.65 (-vahara); Miln 173 (loka-); KhA 28; adj. pannattika (q. v.). Here are the expansions for the short forms of the texts: Cpd. = Compendium of Philosophy (Abhidhammatthsangaha) Kvu = Kathavatthu - 5th book of Abhidhamma Dhs = Dhammasangani - 1st book of Abhidhamma M = Majjhima Nikaya S = Samyutta Nikaya A = Anguttara Nikaya Ps = Patisambhidamagga Pug = Puggala-Paññatti - 4th book of Abhidhamma Nett = Netti-Pakarana Kha = Khuddaka-Patha Commentary DA = Sumangala-Vilasini SnA = Sutta-Nipata Commentary PvA = Peta-Vatthu Commentary J = Jataka Miln = Milindapañha Clearly, this is a very minor term in the Nikayas. Metta, Rob M :-) 31970 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is it so? Hi Christine this is what we called impermanence ;-), the decline of Buddha sasana. Thinking what they do appropriate or not, only condition more aversion to arise or attached to self views. Just see them as conditions ;-). Cheers Ken O 31971 From: Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg]satipatthanasutta In a message dated 4/5/04 4:38:42 AM Central Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > However, as you say, the sutta branches away from breath as object of > samatha to mindfulness of dhammas. This I think is to indicate how > satipatthana can be developed in conjunction with samatha with breath > as object. > > Since breath as object of samatha is a concept (long breath, short > breath, etc), the development of that alone can never lead to > insight. As we know, insight must have a dhamma as its object The Buddha had specific teachings aimed at people at different levels of mental accomplishment. He taught recognizing breath as long, short, etc., to beginners to get them to recognize how one breath is different from another and temporary, how the body (sensation of the breath) can affect the mind, etc. As one develops mental muscles, one is taught how to use to breath to increase concentation and develop insight. The Anapanasati Sutta presents this progression of use of the breath very well. It starts with recognizing the breath as long or short and ends with use of the breath to see phenomena as temporary, empty and not satisfactory. jack 31972 From: Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg]satipatthanasutta Hi, Jon (and Ken) - In a message dated 4/5/04 5:38:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Ken O > > --- Ken O wrote: >Hi Rob and Nina > ... > >Even if one starts as samatha meditation till jhanas in the pretext > >of this sutta, eventually one has to notice that this sutta says, > >arising and vanishing (which represent the three characteristics) > >which leads to insight. Without coming out of jhanas, and discern > >dhammas with the right understanding, I dont think one will know > >body > >as body, feeling as feeling. > > I think you've put it in a nutshell here, Ken. Breathing is an > object of samatha bhavana, so the initial references in the > Satipatthana Sutta are to developed samatha with breath as object. > > However, as you say, the sutta branches away from breath as object of > samatha to mindfulness of dhammas. This I think is to indicate how > satipatthana can be developed in conjunction with samatha with breath > as object. > > Since breath as object of samatha is a concept (long breath, short > breath, etc), the development of that alone can never lead to > insight. As we know, insight must have a dhamma as its object. > > Jon ======================== Jon, I agree with your response, and, Ken, I think you made a good point. The Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas describe both formal meditation and infromal,and both samatha and vipassana bhavana, and the vipassana bhavana is definitely mailny in the context of "informal meditation". I would like to also point out, however, that the Anupada Sutta, detailing the approach to and attaining of final enlightenment by Sariputta, shows how the jhanas themselves, and the fact of their being subject subject to the tilakkhana, can be a basis for liberating vipassana. This sutta shows as well that all the cetasikas required for analysis of dhammas are present when in absorption - at least in the sort of absorption that Sariputta attained. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31973 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollection of the body (as elements) Dear Jonothan, Thank you very much. I do not have this series, but will arrange for it when I meet Kh Duangduen in India. op 04-04-2004 15:43 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: Yesterday I heard it said, that as regards > recollection of foulness of the parts of the body, only the elements > of earth and water are included, i.e., not those of fire and wind. N: Yes, the solidity and fluidity (blood, etc.), that makes sense. J: I looked it up in Vism which mentions the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta M.140 > and others (see Vism VIII, 60). In that sutta the internal earth and > water elements are described in terms of the parts of the body, while > the fire and wind elements are described in terms of digestion, > breathing etc (i.e., other than parts of the body). This of course > makes sense when you think about it. N: the heat, by which what you eat is cooked and digested, and the motion element to move it along. J: I always find it amazing how much of 'the world' is in reality so few > different rupa dhammas, and this is another instance of that > phenomenon. N: The foulness is so good to remind us that the body is only rupa elements. And we cannot escape from the four characteristics inherent in all rupas: integration (arising), continuity, decay and destruction. The Tiika makes me reflect more on these. I was considering listening, because in Bgk someone asked the meaning of listening with respect (doj kawrop). A. Sujin answered: listening and understanding what you hear. As always she stressed listening very much. Thus, we should not think too soon that we have understood already, that we know it all. I often consider that we should study the texts of the Tipitaka and the Commentaries with great respect. Kh Anop and his sister Kh Tida Ratana were examplary in their dedication when looking up tetxs, studying them and reading them aloud, during our Sunday afternoon session at the end of all the other sessions. They took so much trouble finding the right texts. Also during the sutta and commentary sessions the texts were printed out for all participants, as you know. Knotty points were discussed, that is the way to do it. J: Looking forward to your series on the last Bangkok trip. How's > it coming on? N: Thanks for your kind interest. Lodewijk approved of the first Ch, and two more on his desk, but I want to have more done before I start posting it here. I get on slowly, but will also use material of my Emails since these contain many thoughts about what I learnt in Bgk. Now Ch 4 is in the making. Nina. 31974 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis. XIV, 71, Htoo Dear Htoo, It always gives me pleasure to have conversations about Vis. and Tiika. I like your questions! op 04-04-2004 20:46 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y... > > 1. What are upacaya rupa and santati rupa? N: I shall now repost from my rupas, it is always good to recap. > 2. When do they arise? N: The Vis. XIV, 79, explains that there is no arising of arising. Thus, we cannot say that origination arises, it is itself arising. They are not born from the four factors, they are just characteristics inherent in rupas. H: 3. How long do they last? N: See above: these four characteristics pertain to the rupas of one group that lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. When we are more precise, taking into account the three submoments of citta, each rupa (except the two intimations) lasts as long as fiftyone moments. You can see how short: the moment of origination is one such submoment, then the santati,continuity, follows, then the decay and the falling away. Through insight one can realize the arising and falling away of rupa, but this does not mean that one has to catch these four characteristics. Insight is without words, it is not counting. Through insight one becomes detached. H: 4. When do they vanish? N: Evenso, we do not say of these characteristics themselves that they vanish, the rupas with those characteristics vanish. The vanishing moment is the characteristic of impermanence. Each group of rupas has to fall away, that is their impermanence, their vanishing. The vanishing moment is, counting from the arising moment, after fiftyone moments of citta. H: 5. When can they not arise? N: These characteristics of rupa do not apply in the planes where there is no rupa, the arupa brahmaplanes. And also after the dying-consciousness of the arahat. H: 6. What is the difference between upacara rupa and santati rupa? N: Upacara rupa, is the arising of rupa, and santati its continuation and development, but it is all very short. H: 7. Can they arise together in a single rupakalapa? N: As said, they do not arise, but they come into play all the time. But in the Atth also explanations in conventional terms are given. As I wrote in my Rupas: ,The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch II, 327) speaks in a general, conventional sense about the four characteristics of rúpa. It does not deal with the four characteristics of rúpa which denote the arising, the continuity, the decay and the falling away during the period one group of rúpas lasts. It states that there is the arising of groups of rúpas at the first moment of life, initial arising, ³integration² or ³accumulation², and that there is after that the subsequent arising of groups of rúpas, ³continuity². The text states: ³... integration of matter has the characteristic of accumulation, the function of making material things arise at the beginning, leading them, or the fullness of matter as manifestation, integrated matter as proximate cause.> H: 8. Can they arise separately? N: They pertain to a group of rupas and when there is integration it has to be followed by continuity. H: 9. What are the characteristic, function, manifestation and immediate > cause of each of these two rupas? N: The Atth. gives these, see above for integration and for continuity: These four characteristics are paramattha dhammas, they cannot be changed into something else, they each are very specific characteristics. We cannot prevent these four characteristics from being inherent in each rupa dhamma. All four are inherent in each rupa dhamma whether we like it or not. At this moment they are concealed to us, we can only think about them. Through insight direct understanding of them can be acquired. Then we shall really know what impermanence means. All your reactions and remarks are most welcome. Nina. 31975 From: Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi, James (and Jon) - In a message dated 4/5/04 7:22:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Friend Jon, > > Jon: Hope you don't mind me coming in on this thread. > > James: Of course I don't mind. You and I haven't exchanged views > for quite a long time. > > Jon: That indeed would be so as long as the understanding remains at > an intellectual level. But the teachings about satipatthana and > vipassana are given to demonstrate the possibility of direct > realization of these truths, by a gradually deepening understanding > of the presently occurring dhammas. > > James: But what K. Sujin was writing about was purely intellectual. > She didn't write anything about satipatthana and vipassana, she > wrote about an intellectual construct. She described a way to view > the world in an artificial manner in order to somehow force wisdom. > If I start viewing everything as a concept is that going to make me > enlightened? Wouldn't that even make the viewing itself a concept? > Concept piled on concept piled on concept. Where does it all end? > I don't think this is what the Buddha taught. He taught to rid the > mind of defilements (desire, ill-will, and ignorance) and then > reality will be viewed properly. He didn't teach to somehow view > reality like an enlightened person would and, consequently, that > will make one become enlightened. This approach is fake to me and > not what the Buddha taught. You didn't give me a sutta reference > like I requested in this post, where the Buddha said that everything > should be viewed as concepts of an identical nature (thanks for not > using a bunch of Pali though!! ;-)). > > Jon: Absolutely; the enlightened person does not lose the > conventional perspective, but he no longer takes it for something > that it isn't. > > James: And what is it not? How do you know? Are you claiming to be > enlightened or at least close enough to know this? I am not > criticizing you, I just need to consider the source of this > information. After all, you and I both have a lot of delusion in > our minds- how can we determine what an enlightened person knows? > > Jon: And hardly a word of Pali (none you wouldn't use yourseld, I > think ;-)) > > James: Again, thanks for that! Now, if I could just get you into > the habit of quoting sutta references! ;-)) After all, the Nikayas > are a more pure source of insight than either of our opinions. > > Metta, James > ============================= James, I agree with you about "mere belief". However, knowing what to look for sometimes helps one's direct investigations (though, of course, it can also skew them). I have long had a phenomenalist view, but I have now also had it confirmed to an extent by "direct looking". It has become experientially clear to me that I don't "hear rain," I hear sound. I don't "see a tree," I see a (patterned) sight. I don't "feel my body," I feel bodily sensation. But I do *think* of hearing rain, seeing trees, and feeling my body. After a while, when direct looking is practiced along with clear comprehension of what one actually experiences, the theory does not remain as theory. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31976 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 10:43am Subject: classification of rupas classification of rupas Rúpas can be classified as the four Principle Rúpas and the twentyfour derived rúpas. The four Principle rúpas, mahå-bhúta rúpas, are the four Great Elements. The derived rúpas, upådå rúpas, are the other twentyfour rúpas that arise in dependence upon the four Great Elements. Rúpas can be classified as gross and subtle. As we have seen, twelve kinds of rúpa are gross: visible object, sound, odour, flavour and the three great elements which are tangible object (excluding cohesion), as well as the five sense-organs. They are gross because of impinging; visible object impinges on the eyesense, sound impinges on the earsense, and each of the other sense objects impinges on the appropriate sense-base. The other sixteen kinds of rúpa are subtle. What is subtle is called ³far² because it is difficult to penetrate, whereas what is gross is called ³near², because it is easy to penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73). Furthermore, other distinctions can be made. Rúpas can be classified as sabhava rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature, and asabhava rúpas, rúpas without their own distinct nature. The twelve gross rúpas and six among the subtle rúpas that are: cohesion, nutrition, life faculty, heart-base, femininity and masculinity are rupas each with their own distinct nature and characteristic, they are sabhåva rúpas. The other ten subtle rúpas do not have their own distinct nature, they are asabhåva rúpas. Among these are the two kinds of intimation, bodily intimation and speech intimation, which are a ³certain, unique change² in the eight inseparable rúpas produced by citta. Moreover, the three qualities of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness that can be classified together with the two rúpas of intimation as vikåra rúpas (rúpa as changeability or alteration). Furthermore, there is the rúpa space (akåsa or pariccheda rúpa) that delimits the groups of rúpa. Also included are the four rúpas that are characteristics of rúpa, namely birth, continuity, decay and impermanence. Rúpas can be classified as produced rúpas, nipphanna rúpas, and unproduced rúpas, anipphanna rúpas. The sabhåva rúpas are also called ³produced², whereas the asabhåva rúpas are also called ³unproduced²1. The ³produced rúpas² which each have their own characteristic are, as the ³Visuddhimagga² (XVIII, 13) explains, ³suitable for comprehension², that is, they are objects of which right understanding can be developed. For example, visible object or hardness have characteristics that can be objects of awareness when they appear, and they can be realized by paññå as they are, as non-self. The ³unproduced rúpas² are ³not suitable for comprehension² since they are qualities of rúpa such as changeability or the rúpa that delimits groups of rúpas. If one does not know this distinction one may be led to wrong practice of insight; someone may imagine that he can be directly aware of ³unproduced rúpas², that are not concrete matter, such as lightness of matter [1] Footnote: 1. The two kinds of intimation produced by citta, the three qualities of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness produced by citta, temperature or nutrition and space which delimits the groups of rúpa produced by the four factors and therefore originating from these four factors, are still called ³unproduced², anipphanna, because they are not rúpas with their own distinct nature, they are not ³concrete matter². Nina. 31977 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 10:57am Subject: On resolving disputes in the sangha Everyday I read suttas, reflect upon them and meditate upon them. This is how I interpret the practice of wisdom (panna) in search of right view (samma-ditthi). Through this daily reading of the discourses of the Buddha I have read all of the Visuddhimagga and the Digha Nikaya, and 2/3 of the Majjhima Nikaya. I hope to continue in the endeavor until I have read the whole of the Buddha's discourses. While engaged in my daily sutta study I found a sutta that seemed relevant to this list. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Bell Springs 100 Day Summer Rains Retreat May 27 - Sept. 7, 2004 http://www.bellsprings.org .o0o.o0o.0o.o0o.0o.o0o.0o.o0o.0o.o0o.0o.o0o. Kinti Sutta, MN 103 "What do you think about me?" What in the Dhamma Should be expounded MN 103.2 "We do not think thus about the Blessed One" 'The recluse Gotama teachers the Dhamma for the sake of robes, or the sake of almsfood, or the sake of a resting place, or for the sake of some better state of being." "venerable sir, we think thus about the blessed one: 'The Blessed One is compassionate and seeks our welfare; he teaches the Dhamma out of compassion." 3. "So, bhikkhus, these things that I have taught you after directly knowing them -- that is, the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right kinds of striving, four bases for spiritual power, five faculties, the five powers, the seven enlightenment factors, the Noble Eight Fold Path -- in these things you should all train in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing. 4. "While you are training in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, two bhikkhus might make different assertions about the higher dhamma. 5. "Now if you should think thus: 'These venerable ones differ about the meaning (or) the phrasing, then whichever bhikkhu you think is the more reasonable should be approached and addressed thus: 'The venerable ones differ about the meaning (or) the phrasing. The venerable ones should know that it is for this reason that there is a difference about the meaning or phrasing; let them not fall into a dispute'...So what has been wrongly grasped should be borne in mind as wrongly grasped...What is Dhamma and what is Discipline should be expounded. 10. "Now, bhikkhus, you should not hurry to reprove him; rather, the person should be examined thus: 'I shall not be troubled and the other person will not be hurt; for the other person is not given to anger and resentment, he is not firmly attached to his views and he relinquishes easily, and I can make that person emerge from unwholesomeness and establish him in wholesomeness.' If such occurs to you bhikkhus, it is proper to speak. 13. "Then it may occur to you, bhikkhus, 'I shall be troubled and the other person will be hurt; for the other person is given to anger and resentment, and he is firmly attached to his views and he relinquishes with difficulty, yet I can make that person emerge from the unwholesome and establish him in the wholesome. It is a mere trifle that I shall be troubles and the other person hurt, but it is a much greater thing that I can make that person emerge from the unwholesome and establish him in the wholesome.' If such occurs to you, bhikkhus, it is proper to speak. 14. "Then it may occur to you, bhikkhus: 'I shall be troubled and the other person will be hurt; for the other person is given to anger and resentment, and he is firmly attached to his view and he relinquishes with difficulty; and I cannot make that person emerge from the unwholesome and establish him in the wholesome.' One should not underrate equanimity towards such a person. (Majjhima Nikaya trans. Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi, Wisdom, 1995) 31978 From: Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] classification of rupas Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/5/04 5:32:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > classification of rupas > Rúpas can be classified as the four Principle Rúpas and the twentyfour > derived rúpas. The four Principle rúpas, mahå-bhúta rúpas, are the four > Great Elements. The derived rúpas, upådå rúpas, are the other twentyfour > > rúpas that arise in dependence upon the four Great Elements. > ========================= I'm writing only to ask about the relation between the four principle rupas and the derived rupas. (I'm omitting any comments I might have on the rest of the material, as I view some of the so called subtle rupas, the asabhava rupas, and the "rupas that are characteristics of rupas" as (largely well grounded) pa~n~natti, but only pa~n~natti nonetheless, and I see little virtue in reopening that aging can of worms. ;-)) My question is whether or not it is detailed anywhere in the Abhidhamma or in the Abhidhammic commentaries *in what manner* the derived rupas are derived - that is, in what manner they depend on the four primary elements. I presume they are not *composites* of them in some sense, but merely arise with principle rupas among the conditions for their arising. Is there more that can be said on this? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31979 From: m. nease Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Defending one's view in an unskillful way Hi Phil, I think this is from Ven. Payutto's 'Dependent Origination', chapter 6. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/coarise.htm mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip" To: Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 3:57 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Defending one's view in an unskillful way > "Desire to be or not to be produces bias an attachment to views, > theories or philosophical systems, and in turn methods, ideas, creeds > and teachings. When views are clung to they become identified with as > part of one's self. Thus, when confronted with a theory or view which > contradicts one's own, it is taken as a personal threat. The self > must fight to defend its own position, which in turn gives rise to > all kinds of conflicts. The process tends to bind the mind into tight > corners where the funcitoning of wisdom is impaired. Such thoughts > and views do not provide knowledge, but rather obstruct it." > > (Sorry I can't give a source for the above) 31980 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 11:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis. XIV, 71, Htoo Dear Nina, Thanks for your comprehensive answers. Please clarify my following questions again> I will be looking forward to seeing more answers. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, It always gives me pleasure to have conversations about Vis. and Tiika. I like your questions! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- H: 3. How long do they last? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- N: See above: these four characteristics pertain to the rupas of one group that lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. When we are more precise,taking into account the three submoments of citta, each rupa (except the two intimations) lasts as long as fiftyone moments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you mean they exist as long as rupa exist? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- H: 5. When can they not arise? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: These characteristics of rupa do not apply in the planes where there is > no rupa, the arupa brahmaplanes. And also after the dying- consciousness of > the arahat. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree the answer. But more questions. Can upacaya exist at cuti? Can aniccata exist at patisandhi? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- All your reactions and remarks are most welcome. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Can all 4 lakkhana rupa exist in a rupa? 31981 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Re: Pannatti (Concept) Friend Howard: Howard: James, I agree with you about "mere belief". However, knowing what to look for sometimes helps one's direct investigations (though, of course, it can also skew them). James: I think that it can skew them if one doesn't know what to look for. Fortunately, the Buddha taught what to look for. He taught that all conditioned phenomena and formations should be viewed as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. He didn't say anything about viewing formations as concepts. If this was something we should do I am sure he would have said so. I have full faith that the Buddha knew exactly what he was talking about—it is just difficult for us worldlings to follow his advice. The result is that people try to come up with more clever approaches that won't work. No short-cuts (My new catch phrase, instead of "It always comes back to the present moment", will be "It always comes back to the Buddha's teaching" ;-)) Howard: I have long had a phenomenalist view, but I have now also had it confirmed to an extent by "direct looking". James: I will address this issue when I finish with the Salayatanasamyutta. I promise to quote lots of commentarial notes which will probably drive you batty! LOL! ;-)) Howard: It has become experientially clear to me that I don't "hear rain," I hear sound. I don't "see a tree," I see a (patterned) sight. I don't "feel my body," I feel bodily sensation. But I do *think* of hearing rain, seeing trees, and feeling my body. James: This is nice, but I don't think it is everything. Do you also view these things as impermanent, suffering, and non-self? Have you developed revulsion toward them? Have you developed dispassion toward them? Have you freed your mind of craving toward them? These are the important things. Seeing them as mere phenomena is only scratching the surface of what must be done. Howard: After a while, when direct looking is practiced along with clear comprehension of what one actually experiences, the theory does not remain as theory. James: Good. I am glad that you have gotten to this point; but it isn't the end. I am reminded again of the Zen saying: Before Zen mountains are mountains; during Zen mountains aren't mountains anymore; after Enlightenment, mountains are mountains again. Metta, James 31982 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Illusion of Control Hello Rob M :-), I enjoyed your piece on the Illusion of Control. I wrote one recently on the same subject however is was within a yogic/kundalini context, thus I doubt anyone here would be interested in it. Be that as it may, I picked up on your last paragraph regarding "DSG - Non Action Group (NAG)" and a rejection of meditation. I suppose we could say, if one concludes that a contemplative practice is a manifestation of narcissism or control, then we could say that person has arrived at wrong view (samma-ditthi). It would be wrong view, because Buddhism is based upon a Noble Eight Fold Path. The 7th fold is defined by right mindfulness (samma-sati), which the practice of concentration and meditation, and leads to right meditation (samma-samadhi). In short, one who concludes meditation is not right to observe, then that person has arrived a 5 fold path, because they have negated the first fold and the 7th and 8th folds of the path, therefore they are not Buddhists. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Bell Springs 100 Day Summer Rains Retreat May 27 - Sept. 7, 2004 http://www.bellsprings.org .o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o.o0o. Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 11:26:30 -0000 From: "robmoult" Subject: Illusion of Control "DSG - Non Action Group (NAG)" Some DSG members have challenged the idea of meditation because it is rooted in an idea of a self that can control. I accept the idea that meditation can be rooted in an idea of a self that can control, but I reject the premise that this is justification for not meditating. Meditation is one form of mental development (bhavana); it is not the only form of bhavana but it is one form. If one has the accumulations for this form of bhavana, then it should be encouraged and supported. Even if this form of bhavana is performed with self-view (almost inevitable), it still brings good results. Ken H, please help me to understand where we disagree. Metta, Rob M :-) 31983 From: Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 9:58pm Subject: Vism.XIV 72, 73 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 72. And all that [matter of twenty-eight sorts] is of one kind as 'not-root-cause, root-causeless, dissociated from root-cause, with conditions, mundane, subject to cankers' (Dhs. 584), and so on. It is of two kinds as internal and external, gross and subtle, far and near, produced ('nipphanna') and unproduced, sensitive matter and insensitive matter, faculty and non-faculty, clung to and not-clung to, and so on. 73. Herein, the five kinds beginning with the eye are 'internal' because they occur as an integral part of the selfhood (in oneself); the rest are 'external' because they are external to that selfhood (personality). The nine beginning with the eye and the three elements excepting the water element, making twelve kinds in all, are to be taken as 'gross' because of impinging; the rest are 'subtle' because they are the opposite of that. What is subtle is 'far' because it is difficult to penetrate, the other is 'near' because it is easy to penetrate. The eighteen kinds of matter, that is to say, the four elements, the thirteen beginning with the eye, and physical nutriment, are 'produced' because they can be discerned through their own individual essences, having exceeded the [purely conceptual] states of [matter as] delimitation, [matter as] alteration, and [matter as] characteristic (see par. 77); the rest, being the opposite, are 'unproduced'. The five kinds beginning with the eye are 'sensitive matter' through their being conditions for the apprehension of visible data, etc., because they are, as it were, bright like the surface of a looking glass; the rest are 'insensitive matter' because they are the opposite of that. [451] Sensitive matter itself, together with the three beginning with the femininity faculty, is 'faculty' in the sense of predominance; the rest are 'not-faculty' because they are the opposite of that. What we shall later describe as 'kamma-born' (par. 75 and Ch. XX, par. 27) is 'clung to' because that is 'clung-to', [that is, acquired] by kamma. The rest are 'not-clung to" because they are the opposite of that. 31984 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Illusion of Control Dear RobM, Jeff & All, --- Jeffrey Brooks wrote: >I suppose we could say, if > one concludes that a contemplative practice is a > manifestation of narcissism or control, then we could > say that person has arrived at wrong view > (samma-ditthi). It would be wrong view, because > Buddhism is based upon a Noble Eight Fold Path. ..... S: I think we can say that in the end, the ‘right practice’ or the eightfold path always comes back to the wisdom, the understanding of the present reality. If the present reality is one of self-clinging or wrong view about self controlling, it has to be known too, whilst contemplating or following any other practice. ..... > From: "robmoult" <...> > Meditation is one form of mental development > (bhavana); it is not the > only form of bhavana but it is one form. .... S: Mental development (bhavana) refers to the citta (consciousness or state of mind) with understanding of some degree and kind at the present moment. The highest form of bhavana is that of vipassana which eradicates defilements and begins with the wisdom which understands seeing, visible object, lust, hatred, delusion, wrong view and other realities for what they are regardless of time and situations which are merely conventional ideas about bhavana (meditation) as I see it. Whilst we're talking about a 'Right Method', I’d also like to quote the following sutta for a good friend who mentioned personal difficulties and asked for any relevant suttas on courage and patience. In the end I don't think the respect we show for the Buddha’s teachings depends on how we spend our time - whether in ‘formal’ meditation, reading the Tipitaka or any other NAG or non-NAG activities. The respect lies in the understanding of realities and the development of kindness, patience and all wholesome states whilst considering, reading, sitting, standing, walking and also whilst attending to our responsibilities, caring for our family members, performing our work or other household duties (in the case of lay people) and so on, however difficult they may seem. ***** SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi transl] “Is there a method of exposition, bhikkhus, by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it* - can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being’?”** <....> “There is a method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith.....apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it - can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth....there is no more for this state of being.’ And what is that method of exposition? Here, bhikkhus, having seen a form with the eye, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internally, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally’; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: “There is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.’ Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?” “No, venerable sir.” “Aren’t these things to be undeerstood by seeing them with wisdom?***” “Yes, venerable sir.” “This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth..there is no more for this state of being.’ “Further, bhikkhus, having heard a sound with the ear....Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internallly..........etc’ <....> “This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it- can declare final knowledge thus: “Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.” ***** * BB note 150: As at 12:68 [Kosambi] ** Pali for this paraAtthi naa kho bhikkhave, pariyàyo ya’n pariyàya’n àgamma bhikkhu a~n~natreva saddhàya a~n~natra- ruciyà a~n~natra anussavà a~n~natra àkàraparivitakkà a~n~natra di.t.thinijjhànakkhantiyà a~n~na’n vyàkareyya: "khii.nà jàti, vusita’n brahmacariya’n, kata’n kara.niiya’n nàpara’n itthattàyàti pajànàmã" ti~n ***dhammà pa~n~nàya disvà veditabbàti ***** S: For those looking for further reminders on courage, worldly conditions and patience, please look under these headings in U.P. I’d also be glad if either of you or others like Chris or Miike share other suttas that might be useful for friends in this regard. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Here’s another short encouragement I like a lot to finish with: ***** ‘Life’s Brevity’, AN, Bk of 7s, 150 (B.Bodhi transl): “Short is the life of human beings, O brahmins, limited and brief; it is full of suffering, full of tribulation. This one should wisely understand. One should do good and live a pure life; for none who is born can escape death. “Just as a dew-drop on the tip of a blade of grass will quickly vanish at sunrise an will not last ong; even so, brahmins, is human life like a dew-drop. It is short, limited and brief; it is full of suffering, full of tribulation. This one should wisely understand. One should do good and live a pure life; for none who is born can escape death.” ..... Metta, Courage, Patience and Good Cheer;-) Sarah ===== 31985 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > Hello Sarah, and all. > > Gaargh. Just lost a long post. I guess that happens to everyone > at least once. I can't start it again, because it's time to make > dinner. ..... S: A few of us are very slow learners - I probably lost a couple of dozen over a couple of years before I learnt about writing in a word document first ..... Many thanks for patiently rewriting a summary all the same. .... > The gist was to thank you, Sarah, for your comments on my > statement "The Buddha said to doubt everything" which was an off the > cuff statement. Doubt is obviously one of the hindrances. > I was talking about the need for this beginner to yield to views > easily, and stay open to wavering until certainty arises, which it > will, gradually. I'm glad I'm not latching firmly on to one way of > practicing. These days I practice sitting meditation, and I don't > practice sitting meditation, and both ways seem to be helping me. .... S: ;-) You could be playing havoc with Ken O’s neat pigeon-holes for NAGS and NON-NAGS, but perhaps he could introduce a QUASI-NAG group for the fence-sitters;-) .... > I'd forgotten about that sutta already, typically. Thanks for the > reminder. And how silly it was of me to think of designating people > as this kind of person or that kind of person. I imagine the Buddha > did that as a convenient teaching method. ("There are 4 kinds of > people" kind of thing.) It isn't to be taken as a reflection of the > way people really are. An example of how reading sutta without > understanding the basics of Abhidhamma can lead to misunderstanding. .... S: I think you’ll appreciate this old letter of Nina I happened to come across the other day: http://www.abhidhamma.org/lett2.html Here’s an extract, but please read the full letter as I think it also relates to your question the other day about unwholesome states following kusala vipaka etc: ***** N>The Buddha taught about everything which appears now and which can be directly experienced. He did not teach abstract ideas. What appears now? Is it attachment, aversion or ignorance? Or is it generosity or compassion? In our life there are wholesome moments and unwholesome moments and these change very rapidly. We do not have one consciousness or mind, but many different moments of consciousness (cittas). When we, for example, perform a good deed there are wholesome moments of consciousness, but also unwholesome moments of consciousness may arise. Some slight stinginess may arise, which we only know ourselves and which nobody else may notice. There may be attachment to the person to whom we give something, or there may be conceit. If we do not know when there is a wholesome moment of consciousness (kusala citta) and when there is an unwholesome moment of consciousness (akusala citta) how could we develop wholesomeness? Through the development of right understanding of the different moments of consciousness we will better know our own defilements and then we will see that the cause of all sadness and misery is within ourselves and not outside ourselves. What are realities and what are imaginations? We use in our language words in order to make ourselves understood. However, we should know that a word sometimes denotes something which is real, which can be directly experienced, now, and that sometimes a word denotes an abstract idea. We should find out what the Buddha taught about reality, otherwise we will continue to be ignorant of what occurs in ourselves and around ourselves. And then it will be impossible to eradicate defilements. Moments of consciousness are not imagination, they are realities which can be directly experienced, at this moment. We can come to know our good and bad qualities when they appear. We have attachment or aversion with regard to what we experience through the eyes, the ears, and through the other senses. The experiences through the senses are realities. Seeing or hearing are not imagination. Before like or dislike on account of what we see arises, there must be a moment of just seeing. Is there seeing at this moment? It can be experienced, it is a reality. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiences through the bodysense and through the mind are different moments of consciousness which can be known when they appear.< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 31986 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Robber Guests Hi Connie, Mike, Philip & All, --- connie wrote: > > Sutta Nipata IV.10 - Purabheda Sutta - Before the Break-up of the Body > > Free from attachment > with regard to the future, > not sorrowing > over the past, > he sees seclusion > in the midst of sensory contacts.[3] > > 3. Nd.I: "He sees seclusion in the midst of sensory contacts" ... S: Another translation (Saddhatissa’s) for these excellent reminders yet again about understanding the meaning of ‘seclusion’ ‘in the midst of sensory contacts’: “He has no longing for the future and no grief for the past; there are no views or opinions that lead him. He can see detachment from the entangled world of sense-impression.” Also Norman’s while I’m at it: “Having no attachment to the future, he does not grieve over the past. He sees detachment in respect of sense-contacts, and is not led into [wrong] views.” ***** I think the stress in these suttas on wrong view (as opposed to right view) is very important in this Sutta Nipata verse and the other ones Philip quoted recently . Whilst it’s most certainly true that attachments to anything -- including rafts of right views -- should be seen for what they are, we should realize that it’s the attachment rather than the raft that has to be relinquished. (I gave more detail, including commentary notes on this, Phil, in another post): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24878 There is also a common tendency that when we read about ‘...attachment to views, theories or philosophical systems...’ etc as in the brief quote from Ven Payutto as given, or when we read about views without distinguishing exactly what is intended, that we may end up throwing out the baby with the bath water and living with the comfortable idea -- and probably politically correct one in most Buddhist circles-- that all views should be equally open to negotiation and discarded along the way;-). In this regard, I like one of B.Bodhi’s essays on this theme: http://www.abhidhamma.org/essay25.html In the essay he writes: ***** “.....One particular misinterpretation into which newcomers to the Dhamma (and some veterans too!) are especially prone to fall is to hold that the Buddha's counsel to transcend all views means that even the doctrines of Buddhism are ultimately of no vital importance. For these doctrines too, it is said, are merely views, intellectual constructs, filaments of thought, which may have been meaningful in the context of ancient Indian cosmology but have no binding claims on us today. After all, aren't the words and phrases of the Buddhist texts simply that -- words and phrases -- and aren't we admonished to get beyond words and phrases in order to arrive at direct experience, the only thing that really counts? And doesn't the Buddha enjoin us in the Kalama Sutta to judge things for ourselves and to let our own experience be the criterion for deciding what we will accept? Such an approach to the Dhamma may be sweet to chew upon and easy to digest, but we also need to beware of its effect upon our total spiritual organism. Too often this kind of slippery reasoning provides simply a convenient excuse for adhering, at a subtle level of the mind, to ideas which are fundamentally antithetical to the Dhamma. We hang on to such ideas, not because they are truly edifying, but in order to protect ourselves from the radical challenge with which the Buddha's message confronts us. In effect, such claims, though apparently aimed at safeguarding living experience from the encroachment of stodgy intellectualism, may be in reality a clever intellectual ploy for refusing to examine cherished assumptions -- assumptions we cherish primarily because they shield deep-rooted desires we do not want to expose to the tonic influence of the Dhamma.” ***** I hope you or others add any further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Connie, hope you don't mind me robbing this thread of yours and Jon's. you're welcome to fine me;-) ===== 31987 From: Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi, James - In a message dated 4/5/04 7:57:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howard: I have long had a phenomenalist view, but I have now also > had it confirmed to an extent by "direct looking". > > James: I will address this issue when I finish with the > Salayatanasamyutta. I promise to quote lots of commentarial notes > which will probably drive you batty! LOL! ;-)) > > Howard: It has become experientially clear to me that I don't "hear > rain," I hear sound. I don't "see a tree," I see a (patterned) > sight. I don't "feel my body," I feel bodily sensation. But I do > *think* of hearing rain, seeing trees, and feeling my body. > > James: This is nice, but I don't think it is everything. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Nor do I. ------------------------------------------- Do you > > also view these things as impermanent, suffering, and non-self? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Which things? The sounds, sights, and sensations? Yes, I *view* them so. Some day I'll also fully experience them so, I do believe. If, on the other hand you mean by "these things" rain, trees, and my body, the answer is "yes" and "no". I view them as "things" only in a manner of speaking. The underlying actualities have these characteristics, and in that sense, derivatively, so do these supposed things. --------------------------------------------- > > Have you developed revulsion toward them? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Somewhat, but inadequately. -------------------------------------------- Have you developed > > dispassion toward them? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Somewhat, but inadequately. --------------------------------------------- Have you freed your mind of craving toward > > them? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Same answer. ------------------------------------------- > These are the important things. Seeing them as mere > phenomena is only scratching the surface of what must be done. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. ------------------------------------------- > > Howard: After a while, when direct looking is practiced along with > clear comprehension of what one actually experiences, the theory > does not remain as theory. > > James: Good. I am glad that you have gotten to this point; but it > isn't the end. I am reminded again of the Zen saying: Before Zen > mountains are mountains; during Zen mountains aren't mountains > anymore; after Enlightenment, mountains are mountains again. > > Metta, James > ============================ With mountainous metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31988 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_6._Seclusion(§_6.1.,_§_6.2.) Hi Victor (Nina, Phil & All), I’m concerned that you may be drowning in a sea of posts on ‘Seclusion’ and apologise if this is so;-) Please let me know when you resurface. Meanwhile one more, but I’ll try to keep it short [no guarantees;-)]. ..... > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > § 6.1. > <...> > > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > > occasion exclaimed: > > > > How blissful it is, for one who has nothing > > who has mastered the Dhamma, > > is learned. > > See how they suffer, those who have something, > > people bound in body > > with people. > > > > [Ud II.5] >... S: After requoting these wise lines, I was reflecting on them again when Nina was commenting on how nothing, not even one’s children, ever belong to one. I also looked at the commentary, but need to requote Masefield’s translation of the verse first for it to make sense: “Happiness, truly, that one’s (for whom) there is nothing, for the one who has got Dhamma weighed up, for the one who has heard much; behold the one having holdings coming to grief - folk are of a type to be attached to folk.” Comy: As spoken by the Teacher; “The one having holdings on account of the existence of holdings in the form of lust and so on and of holdings in the form of material goods - behold that one, as a result of that same fact of having holdings, coming to grief, meeting with distress, by way of duties and tasks that have as their root-cause the seeking out and protection of sense-desires both gained and ungained and by way of grasping (same) by way of “I, mine”. ‘Folk are of a type to be attached to folk (jano janasmi.m pa.tibandharuupo): being himself other folk where other folk are concerned, he comes to grief, meets with distress, as one whose own nature is that of being subjected by way of craving (to such other folk) thinking “I am this one’s, mine this one”. ‘Pa.tibaddhacitto’ (are such as to have their heart subjected to folk) is also a reading; and this meaning is to be elucidated by way of such sutta-passages as: “ ‘Sons are mine, wealth is mine’ - hence does the fool come to grief; since one is not one’s own, whence sons, whence wealth?” (Dhp 62) and so on.” ***** Victor, I’ve greatly appreciated all the reflections and considerations you’ve led me to in your first corner. Metta, Sarah ====== 31989 From: Eznir Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 2:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how ? #1. Dear Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Dear Eznir, > > This is what I get for saying too much. But I will try not to > confuse kamma and vipaka. ;-) The unpleasant feeling is wholly due > to the accumulated kilesas. Please do not accumulate more kilesas. If at any time you do not feel like it just drop the whole thing and do not think further. > > `Intellectual Understanding' as some of us have been using, is I > believe related only to the Buddha's teachings. So perhaps we can > use instead `pariyatti'. The significance is on the `understanding' > part. It is not pariyatti when one understands the `laws of physics' > or `conceptual understanding about `self', in relation > to `objects', `roads', `road signs', `cars' etc'. The latter may be > with complete `Wrong view', but the former rests upon `Right view'. > In fact, pariyatti is a level of panna, the same cetasika which when > developed to the full results in enlightenment. Our initial approach to the Dhamma is with thinking and pondering. Even though Intellectual Understanding "as some of us have been using" is not the conventional type of knowledge based on concepts. It certainly is involving vitakka(thinking) and vicara(pondering). Right View is direct seeing and beyond reasoning and logic which involves vitakka vicara. Intellectual understanding therefore cannot rest on right view but rather leads to it.(refer Canki Sutta MN-95) >It is *not* something that can be *used*, as in the case of `information', Perhaps, but it certainly is *used* as in the case of *the Buddha only points the way*, *directions*. In fact it is this `intellectual understanding' that conditions the mind. But of course, one must have Right View! > but rather it is accumulated as sankhara It certainly is accumulated as Sankhara. This is why good friends and wise attention is important. As otherwise the accumulations would be of the wrong kind. > and when the conditions are right, results in practice, `patipatti'. Has one got to wait till the conditions are right to start practicing? > > > Before dressing up, one could imagine how perfectly dressed one > could > > be. But when dressing up there is a proper sequence to follow. One > > cannot wear the outer garments before wearing the inner ones. Nor > can > > one take a face wash with all the make-up done. > > Yet all this can be done with wrong view. I think you misunderstood me here. I was trying to illustrate constructive thinking. contd in #1.1 31990 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Illusion of Control Dear Friends, --- I wrote: > > Whilst we're talking about a 'Right Method', I’d also like to quote the > following sutta for a good friend who mentioned personal difficulties > and > asked for any relevant suttas on courage and patience. .... I also just thought of the story about Lady Vedehika in the Kakacuupama sutta (Simile of the Saw) MN21 and posted recently by Christine : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31103 Chris: This sutta puts forward the point that we can think we are good people, everyone else can think we are good people, but the defilements lay hiding waiting for an opportunity to arise. A person can seem even-tempered, calm and gentle until a particular situtation occurs i.e. the right buttons are pushed, and anger and hatred erupt. The story of Lady Vedehika, the five aspects of speech, and the simile of the saw are great reminders to us all not to assume that progress towards equanimity is irreversible. § 2.10. <.....> "In the same way, monks, a monk may be ever so gentle, ever so even- tempered, ever so calm, as long as he is not touched by disagreeable aspects of speech. But it is only when disagreeable aspects of speech touch him that he can truly be known as gentle, even-tempered, & calm. I don't call a monk easy to admonish if he is easy to admonish and makes himself easy to admonish only by reason of robes, almsfood, lodging, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick. Why is that? Because if he doesn't get robes, almsfood, lodging, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick, then he isn't easy to admonish and doesn't make himself easy to admonish. But if a monk is easy to admonish and makes himself easy to admonish purely out of esteem for the Dhamma, respect for the Dhamma, reverence for the Dhamma, then I call him easy to admonish. Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will be easy to admonish and make ourselves easy to admonish purely out of esteem for the Dhamma, respect for the Dhamma, reverence for the Dhamma.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose that a man were to come along carrying a hoe & a basket, saying, 'I will make this great earth be without earth.' He would dig here & there, scatter soil here & there, spit here & there, urinate here & there, saying, 'Be without earth. Be without earth.' Now, what do you think -- would he make this great earth be without earth?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because this great earth is deep & enormous. It can't easily be made to be without earth. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." <....> ***** May we all learn to be ‘deep and enormous’ no matter what is thrown upon us, like the earth;-) Hmmm - long way to go. Metta and more Metta, Courage and Good Cheer! Sarah ===== 31991 From: Eznir Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 2:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how ? #1.1 Dear Sukin, Contd from #1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Dear Eznir, > This is the point where we differ, I think. You see the `practice' > as involving `deliberate application', and this may be related to > your understanding of the role of `volition'. But I see `patipatti' > as a matter of a `coming together of conditions', the main one of > which is the accumulated pariyatti. Patipatti is certainly a matter of coming together of conditions and the process of accumulation of pariyatti is certainly not autonomous. Regarding Intention(cetana) let me quote from the Abhidhamma of which you must be quite familiar: "Like a carpenter who fulfils his duties and regulates the work of others as well, so does Cetana fulfil its own function and regulates the function of other concomitants associated with itself." "Cetana is that which arrives at action in conditioning the conditioned." "Cetana is that which plays a predominant part in all actions, moral & immoral." "According to Abhidhamma, mind or Consciousness(citta) is accompanied by 52 mental states(cetasikas). One of them is vedana(feeling) another is sanna(perceptions). The remaining 50 are collectively called sankharas. Cetana(volition) is the most important of them." (refer A Manual of Abhidhamma by Narada Maha Thera) > On a very fundamental level, the > very fact that cittas arise and fall continuously with the previous > citta conditioning the present and this, the next, giving rise > to `conceptual continuity' when involving enough number of cittas, > there is an automatic `linking' of events. To put it differently(or conventionally speaking) behind the success of an "event" are layers and layers of thought processes(activities) that construct the "little" events(incidences) which collectively(the linking) gives the "big picture" of a "Birthday Party" successfully concluded. If this doesn't make sense to you please ignore. I was saying much the same thing in a conventional sense. > With ignorance and wrong > view still very much dominating, one is then taken in by `ideas' > about `what was', `what is' and `what will be'. This then conditions > views on `what should be'. Wrong ideas about `deliberate effort' are > made, and the "self" gets built around such experiences, and ideas > about `what to do' is conditioned. What if there is no "self" being built around such experiences, but only a sequence of mental states, conditional processes, that ultimately `self destructs', ie., ceases for lack of craving. > > Surely there are direct sequential steps from say, the intention to > lie, to actually doing so. Not only lying, even the other three postures as well, walking, standing and sitting. There is intention preceding our every action. An Action is temporal Hence a sequential nature is involved. This will become apparent when practicing the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana). Every sequential step is an experience in total, ie., "the-intention- to-lie" is an experience involving the 5-clinging-aggregates, "to- actually-doing-so" is an experience following the preceding one, also involving the same set of 5-clinging-aggregates, and so on. Both experiences together, constitute the motion of a human body from the standing position(or what ever) to the lying position. There was no self involved(even if that was a puthujjana). It was just the 5- clinging-aggregates, as intended, changing mental states accordingly. Consciousness & namarupa, citta & cetasikas that perpetually arises and ceases with every atom of experience. > And the dependent origination roles on regardless of what we think. Yes, but if we think right(right intention/thoughts), dependent origination will begin to retard, till finally it stops. What is required is not to think. It is thinking that is Sankharadhukka. But this stilling of thoughts cannot be done instantly, ie., the mind cannot be conditioned not to think instantly. > However this is *not* the sort of > sequence created by our ignorance and wrong view. Even with the > formula of dependent origination in front of us, "we" will > comprehend wrongly, that is because the level of ignorance is indeed quite deep. Our experiences is dependent on the dependent origination, it is the structure of our experiences. And it cannot be in front of us like a mirror when looking at it, because there is no experience apart from the 5-aggregates. It is said that when one sees D.O. one sees the Dhamma. And I suppose that when one sees the Dhamma one begins to retard the D.O. till it finally stops. Its like being the `live wire' of a party. Being the "live wire" one regulates the party from within. And so cetana regulates the mental concomitants with every consciousness(citta) till D.O. finally stops. > Likewise, with the intellectual understanding of the difference > between `pariyatti' and `patipatti', this does not mean that the > latter will take place at any given moment. Eznir, it seems to me > that you are suggesting that `volition' perhaps is what is needed to > make that jump from pariyatti to patipatti. I am inclined to think > that this may be a result of our ignorance of how dhammas condition > one another. The volition is always related to certain `ideas' about > what is and what should be. I question the precision or even any > correctness of such ideas. I think pariyatti and patipatti go hand in hand. Although, in the beginning one may not practice properly. In the enthusiasm, one may go on 10-day retreats, discuss the dhamma and so on. Slowly but surely one may drop out all wrong views accumulated and correct oneself as one goes along. Much like how one learns to ride a push- cycle. Lord Buddha has some good advice in this respect in Ambalattarahulovada Sutta MN-61. That is the three-fold mindfulness of an action; before, while and after doing an action. One may falter in the first round but the next time it is done the necessary corrections are made and the action is committed(or not committed). This feedback process is the general learning method adopted, even in our daily activities. > But more importantly, if there is any > correct understanding of *this* moment at all? What is your view of the correct understanding of this moment? > If we can't determine > whether this moment is kusala or akusala, then what ever ideas we > have, it will lead us on the wrong path. That which has been > conditioned by `self'. Why do you think that one can't determine if this moment is a kusala or akusala? > > Can anyone `will' sati? Sati is always relative to something, either body, feelings, mind or mental contents. Mindfulness of (what?). It is always of something. This `something' is what that gives the indication of how mindful we are. A shrewd businessman is mindful of his business. The miser his money. A fisherman of the weather. A Bhikku of his patimokkha sila. A layman of his 5,8 or 10 precepts. In this way one can will sati. Eventually mindfulness becomes second nature. Just as the fisherman would know when not to put his fishing boat out to sea, or the Bhikku of his sila. The type of mindfulness of the Bhikku is the one that turns the mind inwards unlike that of the fisherman. It is said that in this way one trains the mind to be in the moment. And gradually develops the 4 foundations of mindfulness when one would begin to see the fleeting, unsatisfactory and impersonal nature of things in general. > And if it is not sati at this moment, then > are we accumulating more ignorance? And if all this involves our > personal idea about `practice', would this not condition `wrong > view'? Unless one trains ones mind with sila one would be practicing with wrong view as you put it. 31992 From: Eznir Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 3:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how? #2 Dear Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > How does Sila conditioning the mind to be in the present moment?! If > it is sila that comes with a moment of satipatthana, then panna is > the forerunner. If it is sila as in a `self' restraining, then how > does this condition sati of satipatthana? How does Sila condition the mind to be in the present moment? What is a conditioned mind? A conditioned mind(citta) is a mind with certain identifiable states(cetasikas) that results in an identifiable way that the conditioned mind behaves(refer Sataipatthana Sutta MN-10). In Dhammanupassana one identifies these mental states for what they are, by identifying the state with itself. That is `A' is identified with `A' and not with `B' or `C'. In Cittanupassana one identifies the state of the mind(citta), ie., the condition of the mind, by its mental `contents' or mental states. A bucket containing water is identified as a-bucket-of-water. A tin containing paint is identified as a-tin-of-paint. And so, a mind with lust is identified as a-mind-with-lust, with hate as a-mind-with-hate. Now what has Sila got to do with all this? Sila are the Do's and Dont's. The Do's and Dont's that our parents taught us conditioned our minds to live amongst a society amicably. The Do's and Dont's that Lord Buddha teaches us conditions our mind to go even beyond. In fact even beyond `self'. How? Since these Do's and Dont's are things happening in the present moment the Sila trains our minds to be mindful of them(for a start). Panna is developing as you said which answers your own question in the statement that followed. Let me elaborate. In our first introduction to Dhamma we are lead to think that Sila is just the 5,8,10 or 220 precepts. Broadly speaking Sila can be thought of as the Teachings in the Tripitaka where Lord Buddha speaks of `abandon this', 'develop that', `cultivate these', `restrain from those' and so on. Fundamentally speaking, Sila is just a cluster of associated thoughts (sankharas) amongst others in the background to our experience, the foreground of which are thoughts that engages our attention which we call the present moment constituting the experience itself(this is something one can experience in satipatthana). The thoughts engaging our attention in the present moment is an outcome of our 5 sensual cords and/or mind. When we are reflecting, reminiscing, daydreaming we are solely engaged with mind-objects (thoughts within) oblivious to the surrounding environment(thoughts without). We are floating in a sea of thoughts at all times. And whichever thought(or cluster of thought) that gets our attention we express it in one or all of 3 ways, body, speech or mind(kamma doors). We are a manifestation of our thoughts. Coming back to the issue at hand, when ever we are about to break our Sila(either influenced externally-5 sense doors or internally- mind door) that we *intend* to keep, the corresponding Sila thought surfaces from within and conditions the mind accordingly. Most importantly here, the *intention* to keep the Sila must be made. If not the particular Sila thought is not there within oneself(in the `background') to surface and condition the mind. Even though other cetasikas, feeling, perception, contact, etc are not mentioned they all come into play where `thought' is mentioned. They are not mentioned to keep the post short and to clarify only the issue. As you said, Wisdom is the forerunner in all this. On the other hand if one is ignorant of one's Sila, there is no cause for observing it and hence the mind is not conditioned accordingly and one remains ignorant. Dana, Sila, Bhavana. Dana paves the way for Sila. And Sila for Bhavana, the way to the Practice you refer to. Ideally speaking, one puts on the robe only when Dana and Sila are completed(or proficient). The environment of a Bhikku is ideally suited for practice. Perhaps, one is ordained, only when this proficiency is there, I think. > Intention arises with *all* cittas, kusala, akusala, vipaka and > kiriya. We need only to be concerned with the first two, but does > this mean that our personal ideas about these *will* actually make > them so? And what is kamma, and what is result? Kamma leads > to `vipaka', not to kusala or akusala. Surely citta conditions the > next citta, but is this the full picture of why Lord Buddha gave > importance to intention? Akusala intentions accumulate more akusala > tendencies and so with kusala, and in the big picture, it would be > unwise to indulge in the former. But if you are talking about this > moment, it is already conditioned! And has it been conditioned with > any sati and panna, or by the idea that "kamma is what we all have > to stop `making' if we are to realize Nibbana"? Doesn't this idea > revolve around a self and dhammas as being capable of being > controlled? What do you mean by `a moment'? And what do you mean when you say "this moment is already conditioned."? metta eznir 31993 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello again: A warm invite to new Yahoo group "forgivenessBuddhism" Dear Anthony (& Howard), I'd like to encourage you to discuss this interesting question or any others with us here;-) --- Antony Woods wrote: > Does forgiveness get harder as you get older because there are more evil > > deeds to remember? > I turn 34 this month and it seems to be getting harder as time goes by ...... I think this relates to the post I just wrote to RobM and everyone about proliferations and perverted or distorted thinking. When there is more understanding of the realities that make up our lives and the problem is seen rightly to be the thinking in this way and lack of metta and other wholesome qualities it helps a lot. As Howard has been pointing out however, (and I do mostly agree with what you wrote, Howard), ‘there are Buddhists with “all the right beliefs” who behave badly and loving, compassionate people with no interest in the Dhamma. A few years ago some an elderly Christian couple, family friends, visited us in Hong Kong. Over the years they had naturally heard quite a lot about my interest in Buddhism. While they were here I was troubled by a family problem and expressed my frustration and dismay about it. They listened kindly and patiently and then the wife sweetly asked me whether Buddhism taught forgiveness. It was the cold shower I needed and I learnt a lot from this kind friend who has just celebrated her very happy 60th wedding anniversary. I think that if forgiveness gets harder or there is more obsession, less metta or wisdom on any level, we need to question our understanding and practice. When we understand more about the truth of dukkha and conditioned dhammas, it also helps. ..... > This Dhammapada quote below helps. It was repeated over and over by Ven > Maha > Ghosananda with Cambodian refugees who had suffered enormously under Pol > Pot > in the 1970's. > > "hatred never ceases by hatred; > by love alone it is quelled. > This is a truth of ancient date, > today still unexcelled." ..... S: yes, there is no use in quoting the Metta sutta at home if there is no metta when we are tested. However, whether there is metta or anger now, understanding can know it as it is. it can’t be forced. Wishing to have more forgiveness or metta is only accumulating more wishing. Do you have other helpful suttas to share? Metta, Sarah ====== 31994 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 3:39am Subject: Fwd: Antony in Hospital Hello Sarah, As you will see in this forwarded message, Antony may not reply for a short time. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In UpasikaTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Sakula" wrote: Dear group, I've just recieved word that our dhamma friend Antony is in the hospital. His father is hopeful that he will return home in a few days and says Antony will be in touch with us then. Anyone hearing of further news please keep us posted if and when there is more to share. Also, if anyone wishes to send him a personal email you can do so by going to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UpasikaTalk/members and click on Antony's email address. This will bring up a message that will go directly to his home email box. His father will get the mail. May Antony be happy and well soon, Sakula --- End forwarded message --- 31995 From: plnao Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello again: A warm invite to new Yahoo group "forgivenessBuddhism" Hello Sarah, and all Busy with preparations for the new school year, and so not much time to spend with you all. Thank you Sarah, Nina and Rob M for responses in the Mudita and Robber Guest threads, which I have printed as usual and will reflect on before responding. Sarah wrote: >Wishing to have >more forgiveness or metta is only accumulating >more wishing. This is very interesting. I think I will continue to speak in defence of an intentional contemplation of metta and the other brahma-viharas leading to a later arising of paramattha dhamma brahma-viharas, though I use the term paramattha dhammas without really understanding properly what is meant by it. Rob M has addressed this in his response to the Mudita thread, which I haven't read properly yet, but in the meantime I will say that I continue to find examples of how thoughts/images of of metta or karuna that I contemplate in the morning arise later in the day, and are being reinforced in this way, day in day out. I don't sit and churn up loving throughts intentionally, and I don't sit and see if they will arise on their own during thse morning sessions - it's something between these two that I can't explain. I'm sure by NAG standards it is absolutely self at work. In any case, I will want to argue in favour of the benefits of wishing to have more metta. If this is done with the understanding that it is not an attempt by the self to make the world a cozy place full of loving-kindness, but is based more in an awareness of how immeasurable states of mind arise when self is taken out of the game by even a piddling amount of right understanding of dukkha, annata and annica at an intellectual level. Well, I can't get to where I would like to get with this yet. And certainly not tonight, that's for sure. Just wanted to check in and say hi. I have a binder full of responses from my friends here. There is something about reading a dhamma letter that someone has taken the time to write to you that makes a person want to ...sleep in peace. Yawnnn...Goodnight. Metta Phil 31996 From: mlnease Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 7:48am Subject: Sankhaarupaadaana, for Nina and Suan Hi Nina and Suan, If you have the time (and the inclination) would you please compare and contrast your translations of sankhaarakhanda, especially in the context of sankhaarupaadaana? Thanks in advance. mike 31997 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi RobM, (& All), I think we all appreciate it a lot when you’re around. I hope you don’t mind me butting in here too: --- robmoult wrote: > Clearly, this is a very minor term in the Nikayas. .... S: And yet the danger of proliferating and conceiving by way of concepts and wrong views on account of what is experienced through the senses lies at the heart of the Teachings in the Nikayas. To quote from a post of yours on your favourite sutta;-) RobM: >Quotation from Honeyball Sutta (Mn18) Naturally arising phenomena --------------------------- Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. One's reaction to naturally arising phenomena --------------------------------------------- What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. Impact of one's reaction ------------------------ With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye.< end quote> ***** S: Surely the ‘notions tinged by mental proliferation [which] beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye’ are the concepts on account of what has been seen etc which for the ignorant wordling are taken to actually exist, like in a dream? Proliferations (papanca) or distortional thinking (ma~n~nanaa) are described throughout the Nikayas, including the section of SN on Sa.laayatanasa.myutta. These terms always point to a distorted kind of thinking with a wrong grasp of the object(whether the concept relates to a reality such as a sound or not). In his introduction to his translation of the Muulapariyaaya sutta*, B.Bodhi writes: “Ma~n~nanaa is distortional thinking - thinking which, under the domination of defiled predilection, imputes to its object properties or relational implications grounded not in the thing itself but in the constructive activity of the subjective imagination. It is the tendency of thought to misconstrue it subject, building upon the preceding perceptual perversion to apprehend the object in a mode contrary to its actual nature.” ***** In other words, it is the thinking of concepts (pa~n~natti) with wrong view and other kilesa that distinguishes the way of looking on the world by the worldling. This is the first sutta in MN and like the Brahmajaala sutta, the first sutta in DN, it reveals the wrong views and perceptions with which we view ‘reality’ without wisdom. As you know, this sutta begins by looking at the way the worldling erroneously perceives earth and other phenomena. “What is the reason? Because it has not been fully understood by him”. Without clear understanding there will always be an idea of people and things, whether such concepts are based on ‘truths’ or not. Having gone through the elements and people, gods, realms and so on, all being misconstrued by distortional thinking. In the commentary to the Mulapariyaya sutta, we read that the uninstructed worldling ‘...has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the agregates, elements, sense bases, truths,, law of conctionality, and foundations of mindfulness etc..’. The Tiika also stresses that ‘whereas such entities as self, beauty, pleasureableness, and permanence etc, or nature (pakati), substance (dabba), soul (jiiva), body, etc which are mere misconstructions (parikappitaakaaramatta) due to craving and views, or such enities as ‘sky-flowers’ etc, which are mere expressions of conventional discourse (loka vohaaramatta), cannot be discovered as ultimately real actualities (saccika.t.tha paramatthato), these dhammas (i.e those endowed with a specific nature) can. These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities.’ In the sutta I quoted the other day (SN35:68 Samiddhi 40), it referred to descriptions of the world (loka pa~n~natti). Here, the same meaning is given as ‘expressions of conventional discourse (loka vohaara matta)’. An arahant still uses descriptions of the world or conventional discourse or thinks about concepts, but there is no misconstruction, perversion (vipallasa) or doubt about the realities on which these are based or about the realities whilst thinking about concepts, unlike for us ‘madmen’. .... Comy to Muulapariyaaya Sutta again: "For whatsoever instance among these four kinds of earth, the worldling perceives as earth, he perceives (with the notion) “it is earth”; he perecives as a segment of earth (pathaviibhaagena): he percieves through a perversion of perception, rising upon the conventional expression (S i.e concept) and thinking “it is earth” (loka vohaara’m gahetvaasa~n~naa vipallaasenasa~njaanaati). Or, without releasing such a segment of earth, he perceives it as a being (satta) or as belonging to a being. Why does he perceive it in this way? This should not be asked, for the worldling is like a madman. he seizes upon anything he can in whatever way he can. Or else, the reason is that he has no regard for the ariyans, etc; or, as the Exalted One will say later on, "because it has not been fully understood by him". ***** Rob, are we agreed that whilst the word ‘pa~n~natti’ may not be particularly common in the Suttanta, the importance of understanding realities and the danger of ignorantly (and especially with wrong view) conceptualising about concepts of realities is mostly certainly stressed throughout? Are there any disagreements here? Metta, Sarah * If you or anyone else doesn’t already have B.Bodhi’s excellent translations of the Muulapariyaaya sutta with full commentary and tiika (sub-commentary) translation and also the ones on the Brahmajaala, the Mahaanidaana and Sama~n~naphala with the same, pls pick them up on your next trip to Colombo or order from BPS (fax is best I think). They’re very inexpensive. ============ 31998 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 9:04am Subject: Re: Pannatti (Concept) Friends Sarah and Rob, Sarah: And yet the danger of proliferating and conceiving by way of concepts and wrong views on account of what is experienced through the senses lies at the heart of the Teachings in the Nikayas. James: Sarah, I think you are missing the point of the Nikayas. It isn't that concepts formed in the mind by way of the senses are inherently dangerous; it is dangerous when these concepts are clung to as `me' and `mine'. This clinging creates desire, this desire creates suffering, this suffering creates rebirth…and ignorance of this process keeps it going. Again, the concepts we form in our mind are not inherently dangerous. We could not function without using concepts. Even the Buddha used concepts. There is no big deal with concepts!! ;-)) As the Buddha directly said in the Honeyball Sutta, which you don't quote in this post even though it is the main part of the sutta (you quote subsequent details, by way of explanation spoken by Ven. Maha Kaccana, which you take out of context and present as the main meaning of the sutta): "Bhikkhu, as to the source through which perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man: if nothing is found there to delight in, welcome and hold to, this is the end of the underlying tendency to lust, of the underlying tendency to aversion, of the underlying tendency to views, of the underlying tendency to doubt, of the underlying tendency to conceit, of the underlying tendency to desire for being, of the underlying tendency to ignorance; this is the end of resorting to rods and weapons, of quarrels, brawls, disputes, recrimination, malicious words, and false speech; here these evil unwholesome states cease without remainder." So, is this sutta speaking against concepts? No. It is speaking against underlying craving and defilements. The Buddha described these unwholesome states as evil, not the concepts themselves. Of course, craving, ill-will, and delusion will create even more concepts in the mind and make them proliferate, but the concepts are not the important thing to consider. It is more important to consider the cause rather than the result. Wrong view is not the use of concepts; wrong view is not understanding the Four Noble Truths (of which `concepts' are not mentioned). Rob M. answered the question I asked most earnestly and most honestly. He didn't even give his opinion, he just gave the facts. Sarah: Rob, are we agreed that whilst the word `pa~n~natti' may not be particularly common in the Suttanta, the importance of understanding realities and the danger of ignorantly (and especially with wrong view)conceptualising about concepts of realities is mostly certainly stressed throughout? Are there any disagreements here? James: I disagree! ;-)) Do you understand what you are saying here? You are saying, to paraphrase, "I know that concepts aren't mentioned that often in the Nikayas but they are still stressed throughout." What? How could that be? The Buddha didn't hold anything back. He meant exactly what he said. Sarah, the Buddha didn't teach about concepts unless they directly related to suffering, and suffering is directly related to craving, and craving is directly related to mental defilements. Concepts are not that important to consider; what is important to consider is desire, ill- will, and ignorance. Those are the Heart of the Buddha's teachings (along with Anatta and Dependent Origination), in my opinion. Metta, James 31999 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 6, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi James > James: Sarah, I think you are missing the point of the Nikayas. It > isn't that concepts formed in the mind by way of the senses are > inherently dangerous; it is dangerous when these concepts are clung > to as `me' and `mine'. This clinging creates desire, this desire > creates suffering, this suffering creates rebirth…and ignorance of > this process keeps it going. Again, the concepts we form in our > mind are not inherently dangerous. We could not function without > using concepts. Even the Buddha used concepts. There is no big > deal with concepts!! ;-)) Since me and mine are also concepts so concepts are big deals when clung to ;-). In fact, ill will by itself is not the problem, it is ill will that goes along with me and mine and that is where all the big deals starts ;-)). The whole of satipatthana is getting rid of me and mine and is about rejecting, relinquishing the me and mine, hence the object of satipatthana cannot be concept since we wish to get rid of it in the first place. Ken O