33600 From: Philip Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 4:29pm Subject: First Dhamma talk Hello all Something courage-giving to share this morning. Had my first ever face-to-face dhamma talk yesterday, with Rob K, at Haneda airport here in Japan. We talked for close to 3 hours. The time flew. After close to two years of only "talking" about the Buddha's teaching through a computer screen, what an confidence-building and invigorating - I guess that might be the right word - experience to actually have the words coming out of my mouth with someone who deeply shares my interest, and of course to be able to tap into Rob's enthusiasm and understanding so directly. I recorded most of our discussion and will transcribe it and share chunks of it with you gradually. It was a very good experience. I guess a fellow always remembers his first dhamma talk partner, so I will remember Rob, and the pseudo atrium with fountains and piped in piano music where we were talking as waitresses in mock tropical uniforms came and went like butterflies. Metta, Phil 33601 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] First Dhamma talk Phil Thanks for this report, and for news of Rob K. I know what a great experience it will have been for you. RobK's enthusiasm for the Dhamma is infectious. Looking forward to reading more about your discussion in due course. Jon --- Philip wrote: > > Hello all > > Something courage-giving to share this morning. Had my first ever > face-to-face dhamma talk yesterday, with Rob K, at Haneda airport > here in Japan. We talked for close to 3 hours. The time flew. After > close to two years of only "talking" about the Buddha's teaching > through a computer screen, what an confidence-building and > invigorating - I guess that might be the right word - experience to > actually have the words coming out of my mouth with someone who > deeply shares my interest, and of course to be able to tap into Rob's > enthusiasm and understanding so directly. I recorded most of our > discussion and will transcribe it and share chunks of it with you > gradually. > > It was a very good experience. I guess a fellow always remembers > his first dhamma talk partner, so I will remember Rob, and the pseudo > atrium with fountains and piped in piano music where we were talking > as waitresses in mock tropical uniforms came and went like > butterflies. > > Metta, > Phil 33602 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello All, > > On another list, someone posted: "If the Venerable Buddhagosa was an > arahat then why did he at the end of the Visuddhi Magga make a > sincere wish to be reborn at the time of the final fading away of > the Buddha sassana?" .... I don't recall anyone having suggested here that Buddhaghosa was an arahant. An ariyan yes, but I have no reason to doubt the postcript given in the Vism and other commentaries, even if added. Metta, Sarah ===== 33603 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: So, do you agree with my points? I'm not sure what you mean > by that they are `interesting'. .... S: I’ll try to be more direct. Good sutta to raise and I understand the logic in what you were saying. Read in the light of other suttas, commentaries and Abhidhamma, however, I think your main conclusion that jealousy is not eradicated at the stage of sotapanna is wrong. When wrong view is eradicated, so is jealousy, stinginess and those other qualities as I tried to explain in my other post yesterday to Howard and all. ..... > James: I am not sure of your point here. Sakka didn't become a > sotapanna until the end of this particular discourse. .... S: You’re right. It was my mistake. It’s perfectly clear in the sutta that later all doubts were removed. Somewhere (a commentary?) I recall that eighty or ninety thousand devas became enlightened at the same time. I should have used the word ‘became’ rather than ‘was’. The rest stands OK, I think. Thank you for pointing this out. I didn’t read the full sutta and had another Sakka sutta in mind where he is already a sotapanna. .... J: >In this > instance, he didn't know while he was listening to the Buddha that > the Buddha was correct. It wasn't until Sakka finished his whole > series of questions that he knew the Buddha was correct, because he > used his reasoning. This reasoning and the conclusions he drew made > him become a sotapanna. .... S: I’d suggest more than reasoning - direct insight into the truths he was hearing. .... > James: Okay. Again, I don't know if you agree or disagree with my > conclusions. .... S: As I’ve said, a sotapanna still has attachment and aversion and ignorance but no wrong view and no jealousy etc as a result. Realities are known as anatta, just depending on conditions such as kamma. ***** An afterthought..... James, you might like to take a look at Sakkasamyutta (SN11) too. 11:11(1) Vows is interesting too. We read that he became Sakka on account of seven vows and that when a person follows these (perfectly) the Tavatimsa devas call him a ‘superior person’, a term usually used for ariyans as I wrote about before. ‘When a person supports his parents, And respects the family elders; When his speech is gentle and courteous, And he refrains from divisive words; When he strives to remove meanness, Is truthful, and vanquishes anger, The Tavatimsa devas call him Truly a superior person.’ ***** In SN11:20 (10) The Worship of the Sangha, Sakka talks about why he worships the Sangha and I saw the words ‘this is why I envy them’. However, checking the Pali, it is ‘pihayaami’ which I think could be translated as ...’I would hold them dear’. Nothing to do with issa or envy. Comments or not as you please;-). Metta, Sarah ===== 33604 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 0:10am Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Sarah, Sarah: I'll try to be more direct. Good sutta to raise and I understand the logic in what you were saying. Read in the light of other suttas, commentaries and Abhidhamma, however, I think your main conclusion that jealousy is not eradicated at the stage of sotapanna is wrong. James: Thank you for being more direct. That really helps to facilitate discussion. I understand what you are saying about the commentaries, written/translated by Buddhaghosa, and the Abhidhamma, but I haven't seen you give any examples of suttas to prove this contention. As Howard pointed out, the one sutta you provided didn't say this, only the commentary. And again, that commentary was written by Buddhaghosa. To be direct, if I say that Buddhaghosa is wrong, and give sutta evidence and analysis to demonstrate why he is wrong, it isn't logical to quote Buddhaghosa again to support him! ;-)) Understand? (I know that Jon wrote to me off-list that I am not supposed to question the authority of Buddhaghosa, the commentaries, or the Abhidhamma, but I was not the first one to bring up this issue. So Quiet James is talking. ;-)) If this is wrong, let me know and I will be quiet again.) Sarah: When wrong view is eradicated, so is jealousy, stinginess and those other qualities as I tried to explain in my other post yesterday to Howard and all. James: I don't believe that a sotapanna has eradicated wrong view?? Where is this presented in the suttas? Let's go through the list again, as they are presented by the Buddha in the suttas: 1) The stream-winner (sotapanna): is one who has become free from the first three of the ten fetters which bind beings to the sensuous sphere, namely, personality belief, sceptical doubt, and attachment to mere rules and rituals. At this stage, one has realized nibbâna for the first time, and there are 7 more rebirths utmost. 2) The once-returner (sakadagami): has weakened the fourth and fifth of the ten fetters, sensuous craving and ill-will. There are two more rebirths utmost. 3) The non-returner (anagami): becomes fully free from the above- mentioned five lower fetters and is no longer reborn in the sensuous sphere. There are one more rebirth utmost. 4) Arahantship: through the path of arahant one further becomes free of the last five fetters: craving for fine-material existence (in celestial worlds), craving for immaterial (purely mental) existence, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. There is no more rebirth. http://www.buddhasasana.net/8ind.htm Metta, James 33605 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 0:11am Subject: Re: Playing around with the Past Hi Christine, KenH and Azita Thanks for your posts on this topic. As luck would have it, I came across this in the Visuddhimagga 9.36 "Description of Concentration: The Divine Abidings: Loving-kindness": "But if, as he reviews the special qualities of the Master's former conduct, the resentment still does not subside in him, since he has long been used to the slavery of defilement, then he should review the suttas that deal with the beginninglessness [of the round of rebirths]. Here is what is said: 'Bhikkhus, it is not easy to find a being who has not formerly been your mother ... your father ... your brother ... your sister ... your son ... your daughter' (S.ii,189- 90). Consequently, he should think about that person thus: This person, it seems, as my mother in the past carried me in her womb for ten [sic] months and removed from me without disgust as if it were yellow sandalwood my urine, excrement, spittle, snot, etc, and played with me in her lap, and nourished me, carrying me about at her hip ... So it is unbecoming for me to harbour hate for [her] in my mind." This exercise does seem to me to rest heavily upon self-view, but is obviously intended for use in the presence of a virulent form of resentment. But is there a silver lining to the dark cloud of self- view? Vism 9.10: "I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another (S.i,75; Ud.47)" This, I think, points to the importance of remembering that others are just like "me" in all basic respects. Anyway ... Best wishes Andrew 33606 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Dear Christine, Nina, TG & All, I looked at the sutta you quoted on 5 spheres of release in a couple of translations. I’m not sure I have anything substantive to add, but as I’ve had the texts lying around for several days, I’ll just add a few comments anyway. Spheres (aayataani) or occasions. In other words, decisive supports again as I see it. It doesn’t mean we should read the sutta as a set of prescriptions. Listening, considering, wise reflecting, understanding can take place any time. Remember when we were in Bangkok and K. Sujin kept asking people ‘what is dhamma?’. Hearing now, seeing, jealousy, any reality is dhamma which can be known at this moment. With the right conditions (i.e enough accumulated wisdom), there can be ‘release’ now whatever our activity. I came across the same expressions of joy and so on in ‘The Simile of the Cloth’, when there is perfect confidence in the Triple Gem and the first set of kilesa are eradicated: “When he has given up, expelled, released, abandoned, and relinquished [the imperfections of the mind] in part, he considers thus: ‘I am possessed of perfect confidence in the Buddha,’ and he gains inspiration in the meaning, gains inspiration in the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is glad, rapture is born in him; in one who is rapturous, the body becomes tranquil; one whose body is tranquil feels pleasure; in one who feels pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated.” In the fifth sphere of vimutti (release) you refer to, the comy says the concentration sign refers to ‘one of the thirty-eight objects (aarammana-kasi.na), so in this case the samatha object is the basis for enlightenment. I’m considering words like basis and support these days. Birth is a basis for all suffering, but it doesn’t mean we can take action not to be born at will. It’s a description of realities. The climate was a suitable condition for those living in the Kuru country to be health, live long lives and be able to listen to the Satipatthana Sutta. Again, it’s not a prescription to move to the Kuru country. Or in the sutta just before the one you gave in the DN version, 33:16, we read under ‘five factors of endeavour’ that the monk has is in good health as one factor. This doesn’t mean there cannot be any development of wisdom for those in poor health, but it’s a supporting factor. Alcohol is given in the suttas as a basis for unwholesome actions, not unwholesome in itself. It’ll depend on understanding and other conditions whether there is abstention. Likewise, teaching Dhamma, listening, repeating, reflecting, jhana development can all be immediate supporting conditions, depending on the accumulated pa~n~naa at the time. The Buddha never told us what to do or not do, he taught about truths and conditions and anatta as I see it. For those who can attain jhana like the many followers in the Buddha’s time, it can be a natural decisive support condition for some with sufficient wisdom of the path. If we were to attempt to follow as a practice or to try to memorize texts for that matter or read Dhamma thinking it will in itself lead to ‘release’, these would be example of silabbattaparama (rite and ritual adherence) and a view of self being able to control conditions as I see it. Metta, Sarah ======= 33607 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 1:49am Subject: A Gem for Victor - Quick-Witted HI Victor & All, I've just come across the following sutta which I'd only previously seen in the commentaries and Abhidhamma. It relates to our earlier discussion on understanding the meaning in the suttas by inference or detailed explanation: ..... AN, Bk of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS) "Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)= sankhepa~n~nu]: he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)= vitthaarita~n~nu]: he who has to be led on (by instruction)[neyyo=netabba]: he who has just the word (of the text) at most [padaparamo=vya~njana-padam eva parama.n assa, one who learns by heart, is word-perfect but without understanding it]. These are the four." ***** Also as readily apparent on DSG and relevant to our discussion on replies: AN, Bk of 4s, ii (132) Reply " ' Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? He who replies to the point, not diffusely: he who replies diffusely, not to the point: he who does both: he who does neither. These are the four.'" Metta, Sarah ======= 33608 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 2:04am Subject: A Gem for Rob Ep - Luminous Dear Rob Ep & All, We had so many good discussion on DSG on the ‘luminous’ thread, relating to these lines: “As it was said (by the Enlightened One): 'This mind, monks, is luminous, but it becomes soiled by adventitious defilements'” (AN I.49). For Newbies, in U.P. selected (by the mods) posts can be read under ‘luminous’ and threads followed: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts. A couple of days ago I quoted from ‘The Simile of the Cloth’, MN7 (Vatthupama Sutta), transl by Nyanaponika http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/index.html#home The first foot-note (which I didn’t quote before) relates to the AN sutta and those of us who accept the commentary interpretation will agree with the note from the commentary;-) ..... “1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks thus: "Monks." -- "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: 2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye badly and be impure in color. And why is that? Because the cloth was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled,[1] an unhappy destination [in a future existence] may be expected. Notes 1. "So too, monks, if the mind is defiled..." Comy: "It may be asked why the Buddha had given this simile of the soiled cloth. He did so to show that effort brings great results. A cloth soiled by dirt that is adventitious (i.e., comes from outside; agantukehi malehi), if it is washed can again become clean because of the cloth's natural purity. But in the case of what is naturally black, as for instance (black) goat's fur, any effort (of washing it) will be in vain. Similarly, the mind too is soiled by adventitious defilements (agantukehi kilesehi). But originally, at the phases of rebirth(-consciousness) and the (sub-conscious) life-continuum, it is pure throughout (pakatiya pana sakale pi patisandhi-bhavanga-vare pandaram eva). As it was said (by the Enlightened One): 'This mind, monks, is luminous, but it becomes soiled by adventitious defilements' (AN I.49). But by cleansing it one can make it more luminous, and effort therein is not in vain." ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 33609 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma Hi Lee (& RobM), I’d also like to welcome you (any any of your friends) to DSG. Like he said, you’ve obviously all been studying the Abhidhamma in some depth and I look forward to hearing from you further. When Nina returns, she’ll also love any further questions you raise on the Abhidhamma or Visuddhimagga. Rob gave some great and quick replies. Just a few further comments as I’m writing to you anyway: --- robmoult wrote: > Visible data is what impinges upon eye-sensitivity. It is an image > and could be considered to be like a single frame of a motion picture > film. Eye-consciousness arises at the eye. ... S: We could add that only eye-consciousness arises at the eye-base.The other cittas in the eye-door process arise at the heart-base. All we can really say about visible object is that it is just that which is seen when we open our eyes. it’s misleading to think of ‘a light with single colour or image’. Nothing special or different from what has always been seen with ignorance. You might like to look at posts under ‘visible object and seeing’ in U.P.: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... R:> The cetasikas arising with rootless vipaka cittas are as follows: > - The two sets of five sense-consciousness have only the seven > universal cetasikas > - The remaining five rootless vipaka cittas (two receiving, three > investigating) have the seven universal cetasikas plus initial > application, sustained application plus determination. The > investigating with pleasant feeling also has enthusiasm. > > All of these cetasikas are from the indeterminate group. .... S: Lee, I think Rob is just following your lead here with his use of ‘indeterminate group’. I think it’s a bit of a misnomer for the Ethically Variable Factors (a~n`nasamaanacetasika) or Particulars as they are sometimes called (paki.n.nakaa). Rather than being ‘indeterminate (abyaakata)’, they are sobhana or akusala depending on the citta they accompany. .... R: > The roles of the mahavipaka cittas are: > - Bhavanga for human / deva / brahma realms with two or three roots, ... S: I think Htoo said the same. I’d like to add: ‘or no roots such as when someone is handicapped or blind or deaf from birth, for example’. These are still kusala vipaka in the human realm. In woeful planes tthey are akusala vipaka citta. Of course there are still experiences in the human realm that are results of akusala citta - eg kusala and akusala vipaka citta which sees etc. ... R: > pleasant / neutral feeling, prompted / unprompted > - Registration for desireable and very desireable rupas > > All beings in the woeful planes have the same citta performing the > role of bhavanaga (investigating consciousness with indifferent > feeling). This same citta plays the role of registration for > undesireable rupas. > > I am not sure that this answers the question of "WHY" :-) .... S: I’m not sure either. Lee you may have to elaborate for us;-) ... L: > > 6. Is the first seven cetasikas from the indeterminate group arise > > according to the sequence? ... S: Here you mean ‘from the universal cetasikas group.’ Rob answered it clearly. .... L: > > Really hope you all can help as we have try to look for help where > > we can reach but in vain. .... S: At least we can act as good sign-posts here. Have you read Nina Van Gorkom’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’, available on many websites: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I think you’d find her book ‘Cetasikas’ very helpful too. Also B. Bodhi’s translation of Abhidammattha Sangaha (CMA) not on line. ... R:> I have given very short answers to very short questions. Let me know > if there are any answers that you would like to have expanded upon. ... S: They were very good answers - I’ve snipped all the best parts. .... R:> Clearly, you and your friends have been studying Abhidhamma for some > time. Where are you and your friends located? Do you get together > regularly to discuss Abhidhamma? .... S: Yes, please tell us anything you care to share about your group. As you may already know, RobM is an Abhidhamma teacher in Malaysia and attracts very large numbers to his weekly talks. (It’s a long time since you told us your topics, Rob.....). Metta, Sarah ==== 33610 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 ) Hi Htoo (& Others at end of post), --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Htoo: This is a description of what most arahats do. Anyway, all > arahats end with arahatta cuti citta which is tihetuka vipaka citta. > > In human realm, it is one of 4 nana sampayutta mahavipaka citta. In > rupa brahma including suddhavasa brahmas, arahatta cuti citta will be > rupavipaka citta while in arupa brahma arahatta cuti citta will be > arupavipaka citta. > > Just before this is a series of javana cittas. These javana cittas > may be any javana cittas. But most arahats stay in jhana samapatti or > they may stay in phala samapatti. They might stay in kamavacara > kiriya cittas. But after cuti, as these javana cittas are kiriya > cittas ( if kamavacara they are kamavacara mahakiriya cittas, if in > jhana and they are rupacavacara rupakiriya cittas ), there is no > patisandhi citta and the whole circle at that time that is at the end > of cuti citta of arahats is cut up and there is total extinguishment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... Fine .... > Htoo: Right. You grasped the idea. I just limited in the opening > that 'Normally'. I mean life is made up of cittas and rupas as an > illusion. After leaving co-existing rupas, cittas are being talked. > So life is made up of cittas. The first citta is patisandhi and the > last citta is cuti. > > In between are bhavanga cittas. In terms of bhumi ( realm ), jati > (origin ), sankhara, sampayutta and arammana, patisandhi, bhavanga > and cuti are all the same. Only difference is function. .... fine .... <....> > There is no permanent monkey. > > Next monkey is holding a branch of a different tree. This is the > start of vithi vara or the turn of arising of serially ordered cittas > or consciousness. > > Yes. Vithi citta are called vithi citta not bhavanga citta. But what > I said is any citta in an illusion of a life is a part of that whole > life. So vithi cittas are all parts of life. But they are not called > bhavanga citta which literally means part of life. .... fine again;-) ;-) .... > Htoo: Yes. Nina suggested me to be clear. All kusala cittas and all > akusala cittas arise only when in javana function. > > Vipaka cittas are not akusala cittas and they are not kusala cittas. > The adjective 'akusala' and 'kusala' in front of vipaka may make > readers confused. ... In the case I was referring to, it was the fact that you didn’t include ‘vipaka’ that was confusing for me. .... > > Vipaka are not akusala or kusala. Vipaka are abyakata. But vipaka may > be the result of good actions in the past or the result of bad > actions in the past. ... OK ... > Htoo: Actually I just express and try to put points for discussion. I > will continue if time permit me. ... Good.....just go slowly is fine. I’ll try to keep adding comments. Some of the posts I didn’t comment on, such as on base, object etc were very clear and useful. .... <...> > Next arise pancavinnana citta. Anantara 'walkie-talkie' alerts the > gate opener ( pancavinnana citta ) and the specific gate is opened. > > Advert has different meanings. Only one of them just fits for > avajjana. It is 'turn the attention to'. > > As soon as the truck stops in front of one of the 5 gates, the > attention of the watcher is turned to all 5 gates. He knows gate 1 or > gate 3 or gate 4 but he does not open the gate, which is the function > of gate-openers. > > Avajjana citta checks which door the sense comes in. .... Fine and cute;-) .... > This is why I prefer Pali words rather than simple English words. I > say Pali words but not Pali language. Pali words can become imported > words and this will be much better than simple translated words. .... I agree - slowly we can begin to understand these terms. Others: For those totally confused, I highly recommend printing out this glossary from DSG files to have handy: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Also, put these simple Pali dictionary links in your ‘favourites’ for quick reference if the DSG glossary doesn’t have the word and you still wish to pursue it. (I’ve only just been told the first one is now on-line. I’ve been referring to a battered old hard copy for a very long time.) http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/index.htm http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html metta, Sarah ======= 33611 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 10:13pm Subject: Forgiving Facts ! Friends: Appeasement by Impersonality: Ego-less, self-less & soul-less are all phenomena, actions, things & beings! There are no EVIL BEINGS... There is only Bad & Blind Behaviour! There are neither any GOOD BEINGS... There is only Good & Clever Behaviour! There are no greedy beings, who want forever more... There is only the attraction hidden in desire & lust! There are neither any generous beings, who give... There is only the detachment hidden within liberality! There are no angry beings, who violently harm & hurt ... There is only the repulsion hidden in aversion & hate! There are neither any harmless beings, who protect... There is only the goodwill within compassion & pity! There are no ignorant beings, who search & doubt... There is only the confusion of neglect & uncertainty! There are neither any clever beings, who just know... There is only the intelligence within understanding! All are momentary & ever changing. Even the good suddenly turns bad! Even the bad suddenly turns good! Mixed are the actions of all beings. Born of prior kamma is all being.. Created by prior kamma is all being.. Dependent on prior kamma is all being.. Conditioned by prior kamma is all being.. Owner of prior kamma is all being.. Debtor of prior kamma is all being.. Inheriting prior kamma does all being.. A shadow that follows & never leaves.. Therefore: Avoid all Evil Do only Good Purify Mind! All Buddhas Teach Thus... : - ] All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 33612 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 4:28am Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Sukin, Thanks for your response; I hope you are enjoying (did enjoy?) your holiday. ------------- S: > No Ken, you haven't got me wrong. However I have made the suggestion to the effect that, if anyone was `meditating' as a daily activity but not connecting this with any idea that it was `practice' according to dhamma, then it was O.K. > ----------------------- That sounds reasonable, although it's hard to imagine what sort of daily activity that might be. I wonder if any Buddhist would meditate if he didn't see it as Dhamma practice. In my experience, meditation was hardly a compulsive activity. ----------------------- S: > Then the person could have satipatthana during the meditation, instead of meditating to have satipatthana! ;-) ------------------------ That's a good way of putting it. --------------------- <. . .> S: > Previously, I thought that someone might have the accumulations for jhana and doing so he could at the same time develop vipassana. But later I came to question the `self view' possibly involved in such ideas. A person may practice jhana [though it is unlikely that a layperson today could do it], ------------------------ Not a popular contention, but I'm sure it's true. ---------------------- S: > however if his understanding of the Buddha's teaching on satipatthana is indeed correct, then there is no need to distinguish jhana practice from normal everyday activity with regard to this anyway. > ----------------------- As you have just said, he would be seeing it as, `a daily activity but not connecting this with any idea that it was `practice'.' ---------------------- > If one did, then it seems that he is still tying jhana practice to vipassana in a way suggesting that without the former, the latter is unlikely to be fruitful. This *is* wrong view, because there is no direct connection between jhana and any kind of concentration practice with the development of vipassana panna. --------------- Thanks for explaining this, Sukin. Even though I don't practise formal meditation, it is important that I understand why it cannot be `what the Buddha taught.' As can be seen from the following example, I am not out of the woods yet. :-) Kind regards, Ken H -------------- KH: > > If meditation is something more than mental relaxation, then it must entail the view of a controlling self. > > S: > And yet, when we realize that the cause of any mental exhaustion is one's own akusala cittas and these are known more, then even this `relaxation' will be seen as an act of accumulating more akusala (lobha) and therefore not to be encouraged. ;-) 33613 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 4:48am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt 1 right view Hello all. Here's a first section of the talk with (interview of, really) Rob K. Phil: I thought I'd begin by telling you how I approached this interview. I mentioned in the e-mail that I was interested in right effort, the 4 exertions. So I went to the Useful Posts at DSG, and one of the first ones I found on right effort was you talking about right view as being the first step. You know the Sutta about the dawn… Rob: Right, as the dawn is the harbinger of the sun, so right view is the harbinger of the Noble Eightfold Path. Phil: So that was a real eye-opener, and I think it's going to be one of those things that really stays with me. Rob: Well, I'm glad. So where should we put our efforts? In fact, we should put our effort into getting right view. Phil: It seems to me that compared to the other path factors, there' s room for an intellectual approach – at the beginning. Rob: There are many levels of right view. Phil: Do you think it's easier perhaps to understand wrong view as a starting point? Rob: Sure. If you don't understand wrong view, you'll think it's right view. And when wrong view is present, people think it's right view. Because wrong view always comes with lobha. So whenever people have wrong view, they cannot see it. So as the understanding grows, what you take for right view now, will probably seem very coarse. You look back on what you thought was right was absolutely wrong. Phil: I can see it in my own case with the Brahma-Viharas. Now I can see it was wrong. But I have a kind of faith that if we stay open to the teaching and we find the right friends who can help us correct our views You warn about the lobha related to Dhamma. But doesn't the attachment that comes from your interest in Dhamma – if you are open, and have the right friends – isn't it inevitably going to lead you towards right understanding? Rob: From what I can see in Thailand. I see a lot of people that come to listen to Khun Sujin, even people who come to listen for a long time, still not having a particularly strong understanding. I mean there are people with strong understanding, but I still see people who are with her a long time, and it's still very intellectual. So I don't think we can make a rule about that. Phil: But even the intellectual understanding in one lifetime could be the condition for true understanding in another lifetime. Rob: Sure. Intellectual understanding is not to be devalued. But if you want to be very deep at all unless it's related to what there (there is at?) the moment. Unless lobha is seen as lobha. If you're just going along in you're very satisfied way, "Yeah, I'm at the Dhamma Study Group, I've got the right understanding" and you're feeling very proud about that. You're not seeing conceit. And you' re not seeing lobha at the moment. Then actually you're not gaining that much. You'll gain a little bit from that intellectual understanding, but it'll remain very (inaudible) Phil: That's something I'm aware of. Conceit about beginning to understand Abhidhamma, all the terminology. Rob: Well if you're aware of it, that's OK. That's understanding. I mean, people who are conceited won't even know they're conceited. The really conceited person does not think they're conceited. The person who's very conceited can't admit to it. I was talking to a few people in Thailand. A group of officials, very keen on Abhidhamma, just starting to learn about it. I said to one of them that I have conceit sometimes when I study Abhidhamma. And this lady was very sincere and said "Oh, whenever you think about Dhamma or whenever you hear Dhamma you must never have conceit." And why did she think that? Because she had some ideal of the way things should be. And she's not actually aware of the realities of the present moment. Conceit is a very natural reality. It's just coming again and again. Your conceit about your body. Your conceit about your intelligence. Whatever. Whatever, you know. That's you're a good writer, or you're good at mathematics, or you're good at Dhamma. Phil: And that's not eradicated until… (scrambling to remember) until… Rob: Until Arahat. But there has to be awareness of it, or we'll never become an Arahat… Phil: So the awareness is there and….eradicate I think of as pulling something out, finally removing it, but there's the loosening of the roots Rob: Yeah, when we talk about eradication it's a very long process of eradication. I mean, I sometimes read some internet groups, and they think of becoming a sotapanna as some mystical thing. So you get people saying. "Well, don't worry too much about annata, about trying to understand annata, because it's very hard. Once you become a sotapanna you'll understand annata. (lol) but to become a sotapanna, it's the process of understanding annata step by step. That's what becoming a sotapanna means. Finally at the point when right view is really correct, then you become a sotapanna. So it's a very gradual process. (end of pt 1) Metta, Phil 33614 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 ) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply and full response. As your list is a very active one, when you send a reply or comment on any of my messages, please just send off-list message, if there are many new messages in a day. Thanks Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Htoo (& Others at end of post), 33615 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 8:31am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 025 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 25 cittas which always take only kamavacara arammana or sensual object, hasituppada is a citta of arahats including The Buddha. These 25 kama cittas are 10 dvipancavinnana cittas or 10 sense- consciousness, 3 manodhatu that is 1 pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana citta, 8 mahavipaka cittas, 3 santirana cittas and 1 hasituppada citta. 12 akusala cittas, 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala cittas, 4 nana vippayutta mahakiriya cittas totalling 20 cittas can take any object with the exception of lokuttara arammana that is the object of nibbana or nibbana which is dhammarammana or thought-object. 4 nana sampayutta kamavacara mahakusala cittas can take any object with the only exception of arahatta magga and arahatta phala. Rupavacara 5th jhana abhinnana citta also does the same. 4 nana sampayutta kamavacara mahakiriya cittas and manodvaravajjana citta can take any object that is of kama, mahaggata or jhana, lokuttara, nibbana, panatta. Rupavacara 5th kiriya jhana citta does the same. 3 vinnanancayatana cittas ( kusala, vipaka, kiriya ) and 3 n'evasannanasannayatana cittas ( kusala, vipaka, kiriya ) altogether 6 jhana cittas always take mahaggata arammana and they never take any other object. These 6 cittas are only cittas that do not take pannatta as their object. Instead they take paramattha arammana or real object that is '1st arupa citta and 3rd arupa citta'. 3 akasanancayatana cittas, 3 akincinnayatana cittas and all 15 rupavacara cittas take panatta arammana only and they do not take any paramattha arammana as their object. 4 magga cittas and 4 phala cittas always take nibbana as their object. Depending on arammana, cittas can be grouped into 1. 25 kama-arammana cittas 2. 20 non-lokuttara-arammana cittas 3. 4 non-arahatta-arammana cittas ( 5th rupa jhana abhinna included ) 4. 5 sabba-arammana cittas ( 5th rupa jhana kiriya abhinna included ) 5. 6 mahaggata-arammana cittas 6. 21 pannatta-arammana cittas 7. 8 lokuttara-arammana cittas 25 + 20 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 21 + 8 = 89 cittas in total. So far 25 messages will tell what is citta and how cittas can be classified. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33616 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 9:54am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > ---------------------- > R: > It seems to me that satipatthana would not be "practice" but > would be the fruit of practice. > > ---------------------------- > > You may have missed the lead-up to this conversation, Rob. We had > been discussing the factors leading to enlightenment -- > `enlightenment' in the sense of `direct experience of Nibbana.' The > last of the four factors leading to enlightenment was `practice in > accordance with the Dhamma.' Hi Ken. I don't know how much of the lead-up I missed, but I am always happy to receive greater clarification of the basics of the Dhamma, especially as interpreted through the lens of Abhidhamma in this particular arena. Your definition of enlightenment is very clear, and I think a very good and useful one. Your description of the process by which direct experience of Nibbana is achieved is also very clear and helpful. Thank you. Note for reference in this discussion that the fourth factor leading to enlightenment, as you say above, is "practice in accordance with the Dhamma." You then say below that the other three factors do not include or mention formal meditation. There is of course not need for formal meditation to be mentioned in the first three factors, because it is included in the fourth factor: "practice in accordance with the Dhamma." So for purposes of determining the efficacy of meditation, formal or otherwise I might add, we need not worry about the other three factors, but just focus on "practices in accordance with the Dhamma." You define "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" to equal the experience of satipatthana. I would dispute this. There is nowhere in the Tipitaka where Buddha states that "only the experience of satipatthana constitutes true practice in accordance with the Dhamma." So this is an interpretive definition on your part, and perhaps on the part of the commentators of the Abhidhamma, whom you may trust as an authority almost equal to the Buddha, but I do not. I trust them as brilliant commentators and technicians, but do not warrant them the wisdom that perhaps you may, to freely intrepret what the Buddha said in terms that are quite different from what he actually stated. And sometimes this is the case. If you don't agree with this, I will try provide a specific example. But since I don't want to get too side-tracked I will leave that out for now. The issue of what constitutes true practice in accordance with the Dhamma is the single issue upon which the efficacy of meditation rises and falls. If a practice is in accord with the Dhamma, it should satisfy one of two conditions: 1/ It should be explicitly mentioned as something that aspirants to enlightenment should perform; or 2/ It should be in obvious accord with the Buddha's teachings and principles as directly espoused in the suttas. This definition of practice would go for all activities that do not fall into the first three categories, but are candidates for true or right practice according to the Dhamma, including the Abhidhamma analysis, which is also not explicitly mentioned in the suttas, as it came into being after the lifetime of the Buddha. So there is always an element of judgment and speculation when it comes to assigning "Right Practice" to something that the Buddha did not explicitly mention as a practice himself. I have been proposing that meditation with the aim of satipatthana in mind, was an explicit prescription of the Buddha, a practice that is not only in accord with the Dhamma, but is explicitly promoted in the suttas. Abhidhamma of course disagrees with this view, and states that Buddha's description of breathing meditation, as exctensive as it is, and with its specific ties to the production of satipatthana in the Anapanasati and other suttas, is a description only because people at that time happened to be doing breathing meditation already, and so he couched that particular teaching in that context. Again, that seems like an extremely tortured explanation to me, and when I say "tortured" I do not mean "ugly" or "painful," I mean it in a techical way as meaning a convoluted analysis that bypasses the obvious in favor of an explanation that does not make sense of what was actually said, but suits the philosophy of the person making the argument. Abhidhamma has an enormous amount to offer in the way of its detailed analysis of the action of consciousness and the structure of the path to enlghtenment. But the abdication of Buddha's obvious teachings that don't happen to fit with Abhidhamma's philosophical leanings do not do Abhidhamma good service. It undercuts its efficacy by taking practitioners away from practices that are beneficial and part of the Buddhist path. In my opinion this is a grave error. Abdhidhamma should come to terms with the full spectrum of the Buddha's teachings and not isolate itself in deference to the commentators, if that is the cause. If Buddha had the same aim as those who make the above argument to warn that breathing itself is not a special object and should not be taken as a primary object of practice, I think he was smart enough [omniscient in fact] that he would have warned that his teaching in this sutta was not meant to imply that breath *should* be taken as the object of medtitation, or that meditation should be undertaken as a practice. He gave no such warning, though he gave countless specific warnings against other dangers on the path. I think that the crucial point is whether Buddha advocated practices and whether it is possible to practice while not affirming the existence of a practitioner. In my opinion, Buddha would not have taken something that is an experience, something that is not practiced, but is a result of certain conditions, and call it is a practice. Again, let's be obvious about it. A practice is something that is practiced. It tortures the definition of a practice to say that satipatthana *is* the practice. Satipatthana is the fruit of a practice, and that practice is the practice of mindfulness. Whether one engages in the practice of simple sati through formal or informal meditation, or merely by focussing upon the arising of experience in the moment does not make a crucial difference. What matters is that one is bound to be unsuccessful in experiencing satipatthana, and that repeated concentration [Right Concentration] in this practice [Right Practice] with the correct kind of effort [Right Effort] will eventually train the mind to be concentrated and mindful and lead to the conditions that create the more extended experience of satipatthana, vipassana, and bring one into the stream of experience that leads to enlightenment. If one affirms that there is such a path of practice recommended by the Buddha and that it should be engaged in the same way that one engages with sutta reading and conversation such as that which occurs on this list, is one by doing so affirming that there is a being, entity, self or soul existent within the khandas? Does one turn their back on Buddhism by stating that there is a practice and that it can be engaged with? Of course not! That is a straw man. Everyone speaks of the beings that we appear to be as you, he, I, them, we all refer to ourselves by name and live our lives as though they were real, knowing that there is no entity within that these names, titles and lives refer to, because that is the way of conventional reality. Conventional reality doesn't go away. We don't abdicate brushing our teeth or going to work because there is no one brushing or going to work. Why should we give up sati practice or meditation because we believe that there is no one ultimately to do such things? We do them as conditional beings who have faith that these kandhas by doing so will be subjected to the unconditioned if we follow the path consistently and that the illusion of self will be taken away by these practices. It is not that we are lost in the future, or ignoring the present, but that we are taking a principled approach to what we do in the present. This does not affirm a self, but affirms a belief in freedom from the self. > As we know, the Dhamma declares all reality, apart from Nibbana, to > be conditioned and to have the characteristics anicca, dukkha and > anatta. The practice is to directly see the truth of this > teaching. Directly seeing the truth of conditioned reality is > called, satipatthana. Extensive satipatthana leads to dispassion, > renunciation and relinquishment -- with regard to conditioned > reality. As a result, the only unconditioned reality, Nibbana, > becomes the object of consciousness. I think, at this stage, direct > experience becomes what you would call the fruit of the practice. > It is also called Path Consciousness or sometimes `vipassana' but > not, strictly speaking, `satipatthana.' It may be that enlightenment is the fruit of satipatthana, but still satipatthana is the fruit of Right Effort towards mindfulness. Without such a practice satipatthana is not going to just pop out of the blue. What do you think creates the conditions for satipatthana to arise? It is not only reading the suttas, etc., but is Right Practice, which includes mindfulness meditation. > --------------------------- > R: > Of course, there is an inclination in Abhidhamma to remove any > definition of practice that involves "someone" "doing something" and > so you can only have the spontaneous result, not the doing that > leads to it. > > --------------------------- > > `Spontaneous' is a bad choice of word here. Ultimately, as you say, > there is no "someone doing something" but nothing is spontaneous; > everything that arises does so from a cause. That's right; and one of the causes of satipatthana arising is the practice of mindfulness. One must train the mind, not just leave it sitting there. Training the mind to concentrate and discern the arising of the moment does not necessitate a self to will or do that; it necessitates the arising of the desire to do it, and engagement with the mind by consciousness towards that focus; and we shouldn't discourage such a practice from arising. Again, I do not believe that the Buddha would call something a practice that we were meant to wait around for and hope that it happens due to some other conditions. The conditions that are meant to cause satipatthana to arise are conditions within these kandhas. These guys have got to get to work and perform their Right Effort. They are not just meant to sit around waiting for satipatthana to strike. I said "by Grace" because that is the tone towards something to happen that is not a practice. We are either responsible for our actions, or we are just waiting for "Grace" by another name. It reminds me of those who say "Well Jesus will take care of it." We are responsible for the process, not Buddha. He showed the path, we have to follow it. And it includes real practices, like meditation. I have been told that "reading sutta" is not a practice because only an intellectual result is attained, and that "meditation" is a practice that brings up the idea of a self to achieve something because one has the hope that one will achieve satipatthana. This seems like it is twisted on its head. Its okay to do something that will *not* give you the result you want, but it is not okay to do a practice that *might* give you the result, because that will bring up the idea of self that can do it, which will stop the result. So we are left with a choice between a preliminary practice and "Grace" by another name, or a practice whose practice will prevent it from being effective, because it might be thought to be too effective. Talk about a convoluted set of understandings. Why not just do the practice that gives the result and work towards dropping the idea of a self doing it or getting the results? I am told that cannot be done, because the idea of the "doer" or "self" cannot be dropped, possibly because this would lead to the idea of a self who can drop himself! I hate to say this, but it seems that this complicated explanation is only geared towards defending the practices that are in vogue and blocking those that are not popular with the Abhidhammic culture. The reason I speak so boldly is because I really do think something can be done here; these two views can be reconciled, but not if there is a pre-existing prejudice against anything not prescribed by one or another specific philosophy. And I am sorry for any harshness that could be taken personally, but it is not meant personally, but most fervently. > ------------------------- > R: > But then why on earth call it practice? If it is not something > that one does, it is not practice at all, but just a happening which > one receives. That is not practice, but "grace" by another name. > > ------------------------- > > Hold on there, Rob! "Someone doing something" is one > extreme, "someone receiving grace" is the other. The Abhidhamma has > no truck with either extreme. It deals with the middle (the > ultimate) reality in which there are dhammas that are arising, > performing their functions and falling away. And yet there is a philosophy of things to do to facilitate the conditions for satipatthana to arise, and that is not merely of the moment arising, is it? > -------------------------- > R: > It seems to me that if "practice" is listed as the fourth > factor towards enlightenment, this is because practices including > meditation were in fact recommended by the Buddha. > -------------------------- > > Practice in the form of satipatthana, yes. The other three factors > are not practice but they are conditions for practice. They are, > association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and wise > consideration of the true Dhamma. (No mention of formal meditation.) With respect, correct me if I am wrong, but all four groups are conditions for enlightenment. The first three are not given as conditions for practice, are they? Rather, practice itself is one of the four conditions for enlightenment. You cannot say that practice is not soemthing that has to be done, but merely a result of reading and understanding from suttas and spiritual advisors. There is no practice in reading sutta and coms and then waiting for satipatthana to just pop up. Where's the practice? Like many convoluted explanations, this one ignores the definition of practice as something that one does, and turns it into an arising path factor that one can do nothing about, the exact opposite of the word. Right Effort is not really effort, something that one asserts, because if they did they would be asserting the existence of a self that can assert the effort. Well, it was Buddha's term, not ours! He said Effort; if he meant a feeling of something taking place brought on by conditions he could have picked a better word! Effort and Practice, all these active words used by the Buddha, are turned into passive arisings which are not allowed to have the meaning that they actually have. Effort is not longer Effort, it is a kind of non-Effort that arises by itself due to conditions. I think this is an unnecessary abdication of the "doing" aspect of practice, effort, volition, etc. It is not a hidden "self" that has to exercise these things, but the kandhas, led by consciousness. Consciousness, citta, is trained to engage in these efforts and to engage the mental and physical mechanisms to do these things. No self involved. But a result that leads to the eradication of the idea of self. > When you rightly say, "recommended by the Buddha," that begs the > questions; "Recommended to whom? Who hears? Who considers? With > what beings do they associate? " Only kandhas, including citta, are there to hear, consider etc. So that is what is involved. In the middle ground known as > ultimate reality there are no beings to give or carry out > recommendations, there are only dhammas. But they do hear and consider and make decisions according to conditions and engage in practices based on those decisions. The whole chain is there, without a self. And all the above can be trained to be on the path. The Middle Way is the > arising of eight supramundane dhammas known as Path Factors. And Abhidhamma, in my uneducated and presumptuous opinion, makes the mistake of interpreting those path factors in a convoluted way, as all arising as once with no particular practice leading to this event. It is again, a mystical event, a kind of Grace that takes place when all the right conditions are met. I know you object to the word, but I think it has that flavor of faith in a mystical event. Instead, I believe that the Buddha wanted the eight path factors to be put into practice through the way we live our lives, the attention we give to the events of life, and the special practices we engage in such as sutta study, lively discussion on dsg, and formal meditation on the breath and the four factors of mindfulness. It seems obvious in his words, and sensible to me. Why twist it into a complex and mystical series of uncontrollable events, all in the name of anatta? Anatta is to be realized, also through practice, not invoked to *prevent* practice. What a mistake! > ----------------- > R: > Do you agree that in any case "practice" as a resultant state > without any intervening effort is a rather tortured definition > of "practice?" > > ------------------------------ > > Right effort is an integral part of the practice and, appropriately, > it arises with it, not separately. So no, I don't agree. Far from > being tortured, the explanation of momentary reality is beautiful. I also think the explanation of momentary reality is beautiful, and as I'm sure you know, do not mean "tortured" in that way. But the explanation of momentary reality does not preclude sensible and gradual practices towards enlightenment, and to interpret it that way is a grave error. Best, Robert Ep. =========================================== 33617 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 11:14am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5 When someone attains jhåna he can be temporarily free from attachment to sense objects, but defilements cannot be eradicated by jhåna. Only the development of vipassanå leads to the eradication of defilements. When someone develops samatha, sati-sampajañña should realize the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta, and he should realize when akusala citta with attachment arises. Sati-sampajañña is needed and this means, that he should not only have theoretical understanding of kusala and akusala, but that he should be aware right at the moment when attachment arises. He should also be truly motivated to be free from sense objects and to subdue attachment to them. This means that he should lead a life of contentment with little, without any entertainments, without indulging in all the pleasant things of life. If he is not a monk, his life-style should still be similar to the monk¹s way of life. The kasinas, disks, are among the meditation subjects of samatha and these can remind us of the goal of samatha. We discussed the Earth Kasina, one of the meditation subjects of samatha. One of the meanings of kasina is ³entire² or ³whole². The kasina disk or circle includes all. In the case of the earth kasina, we can be reminded that all we are attached to is just earth. When we are eating, when we go shopping and buy clothes, or when we use table and chair, we are clinging to earth. The element of earth represents solidity, hardness or softness. This element is present in all sense objects. One cannot attain calm by merely looking at a kasina and concentrating on it. There should be right understanding of this mediation subject and of the goal of its development. We read about people in the Buddha¹s time who could develop all stages of jhåna and then developed vipassanå. For them samatha was the foundation or proximate cause for insight. However, in order to be able to do so they had to acquire ³masteries² (vasí) of jhåna. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² (IV, 131): ³Herein, these are the five kinds of mastery: mastery in adverting, mastery in attaining, mastery in resolving (steadying the duration), mastery in emerging, and mastery in reviewing.² This means that jhånacitta had become very natural to them and could arise at any time. Therefore, it could become an object of insight. In order to eradicate defilements completely, insight has to be developed. The person who could attain jhåna had to be aware of the cetasikas which are jhånafactors: applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicara), zest (píti), happy feeling (sukha) and concentration (ekaggata cetasika) [4]. Footnote: 4. The jhånafactors are the sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas that should be developed so that absorption, jhåna, can be attained. **** Nina 33618 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Sarah and Rob M, I fully endorse Sarah's statement about Buddhaghosa. Right, we better point the finger to ourselves when we do not understand. I think that when we study carefully and quietly the points where people, even wellknown scholars, critize Buddhaghosa, we can find out that such controversies are quite unnecessary. I would like to clear up any criticism of Buddhaghosa, any doubt about whether he is wrong, even in minor points. And for the Pali I can ask for help from Suan as I did before. Nina. op 03-06-2004 09:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > S: Objection!!I don’t understand B.Bodhi to have suggested that > ‘Buddhaghosa got it wrong.’ As I understand, in his comment he is giving a > very brief summary of the detailed commentary note which goes to pains to > show the reasons for ‘its reasonableness’. The orthodox Theravada > tradition (including the Buddhist Councils as I understand) includes the > Visuddhimagga and other ancient Pali commentaries. Buddhaghosa was a > compiler of ancient commentaries -- as you agree -- brought to Sri lanka > by the great arahant Mahinda. His compilation work was under the scrutiny > of the great arahants in Sri Lanka at the time. (See ‘Buddhaghosa’ in > U.P.) > > Whenever I find any discrepancy or something which doesn’t make sense, it > always turns out to be my ignorance that’s the problem, not the ancient > commentators. I understand that this is a minority view;-). > . 33619 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt 1 right view Dear Philip and friends, Philip, thank you very much. I liked the conceit part, we also talked about it in Bgk, there is conceit even when thinking: these flowers are not fresh, I could do better. There is no end to it. It does make a difference talking face to face to a Dhamma friend. It also helps to consider one's own understanding more. I find that also these days when Lodewijk and I were on a walking and dhamma holiday. We discussed the Brahmaviharas, the disadvantage of clinging (near enemy) and the benefit of kusala which is always accompanied by detachment. Yes, discussing makes all the difference, quite different from writing. I read to Lodewijk quotes from A. Sujin. I should thank you for drawing my attention to the Brahmaviharas. I shall post little bits at a time. Looking forward to your next posts. Sorry friends for not answering mails, I have to catch up. Nina. op 04-06-2004 13:48 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Conceit is a very natural reality. It's just coming again > and again. Your conceit about your body. Your conceit about your > intelligence. Whatever. Whatever, you know. That's you're a good > writer, or you're good at mathematics, or you're good at Dhamma. 33620 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Dear Sukin, When we read samma samadhi, *samma* is not always of the eightfold Path. We have to add: samma-samadhi *of the eightfold Path*. Just as in the case of right thinking, this can also be thinking of renunciation, of non-illwill and non-violence that is right, that is kusala, but not of the eightfold Path. When developing samatha one sees the danger in sense objects. Panna in vipassana realizes more subtle akusala. Nina op 01-06-2004 10:11 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > However, this last Saturday, I was curious > why jhana was considered `Samma Samadhi' and not just `Kusala' or > perhaps `Mahakusala' Samadhi? K. Sujin said that it was because jhana > was a *development* of a kind of panna from samatha. I gather that it > involves seeing the danger in `sense objects' and recognizing > increasingly more subtle akusala!? 33621 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 2:23pm Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5 Dear Nina: > Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5 > > When someone attains jhåna he can be temporarily free from >attachment to > sense objects, but defilements cannot be eradicated by jhåna. Only >the > development of vipassanå leads to the eradication of defilements. > When someone develops samatha, sati-sampajañña should realize the >difference > between kusala citta and akusala citta, and he should realize when >akusala > citta with attachment arises. Sati-sampajañña is needed and this >means, that > he should not only have theoretical understanding of kusala and >akusala, but > that he should be aware right at the moment when attachment arises. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This excerpt of "Perseverance in Dhamma" states out clearly all difference between the Jhanas and the vipassana: it's really precious to all serious students and practicioners of meditation. Buddha always appointed the Jhana as the very goal of all practioners, as a direct derivation of all His preaching about Dukkha, Anicca and Anatta: one can suggest this is an open door to an idea of "Faith", because such confidence on Buddha teachings and the dilligent practice of the classified kinds of Jhana really free the mind of attachment, at least at Jhana's marked time. But is it through "Faith" Buddha is conducting his teachings ? Not at theravada tradition! Faith has its proper place in all His scheme, but only the vipassana has a direct approach of these questions. (Today I will not write silly jokes! I really liked this text!!!) Mettaya, ÍCaro He > should also be truly motivated to be free from sense objects and to subdue > attachment to them. This means that he should lead a life of contentment > with little, without any entertainments, without indulging in all the > pleasant things of life. If he is not a monk, his life-style should still be > similar to the monk¹s way of life. > The kasinas, disks, are among the meditation subjects of samatha and these > can remind us of the goal of samatha. We discussed the Earth Kasina, one of > the meditation subjects of samatha. One of the meanings of kasina is > ³entire² or ³whole². The kasina disk or circle includes all. In the case of > the earth kasina, we can be reminded that all we are attached to is just > earth. When we are eating, when we go shopping and buy clothes, or when we > use table and chair, we are clinging to earth. The element of earth > represents solidity, hardness or softness. This element is present in all > sense objects. One cannot attain calm by merely looking at a kasina and > concentrating on it. There should be right understanding of this mediation > subject and of the goal of its development. > We read about people in the Buddha¹s time who could develop all stages of > jhåna and then developed vipassanå. For them samatha was the foundation or > proximate cause for insight. However, in order to be able to do so they had > to acquire ³masteries² (vasí) of jhåna. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² (IV, > 131): ³Herein, these are the five kinds of mastery: mastery in adverting, > mastery in attaining, mastery in resolving (steadying the duration), mastery > in emerging, and mastery in reviewing.² This means that jhånacitta had > become very natural to them and could arise at any time. Therefore, it could > become an object of insight. In order to eradicate defilements completely, > insight has to be developed. The person who could attain jhåna had to be > aware of the cetasikas which are jhånafactors: applied thinking (vitakka), > sustained thinking (vicara), zest (píti), happy feeling (sukha) and > concentration (ekaggata cetasika) [4]. > > Footnote: > 4. The jhånafactors are the sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas that should be > developed so that absorption, jhåna, can be attained. > > **** > Nina 33622 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 2:48pm Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K pt 1 right view Hello Philip, (RobK), all, How lovely to read your conversation with RobK. Great that you had three uninterrupted hours! I appreciate the sharing - the internet is a fine method of communication, but you can't beat real face-to- face discussion. It was a good idea to record the conversations, I hope you will post some more excerpts each day. With the discussions in Bkk, though they are taped, I more often than not, don't take a copy. Wrong View is a strange thing to experience - because it feels so Right at the time, and so much energy is expended defending it, and finding comfort in how many others think or act the same way. Then, as Right understanding grows, one wonders how such views could ever have been held, and the memories of the intense emotion felt - the utter certainty, the dosa felt at even the faintest suggestion of criticism - are recalled with a strange mixture of amusement and sadness. Looking forward to reading more of your conversations with Rob ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello all. Here's a first section of the talk with (interview of, > really) Rob K. > > Phil: I thought I'd begin by telling you how I approached this > interview. I mentioned in the e-mail that I was interested in right > effort, the 4 exertions. So I went to the Useful Posts at DSG, and > one of the first ones I found on right effort was you talking about > right view as being the first step. You know the Sutta about the > dawn… > > Rob: Right, as the dawn is the harbinger of the sun, so right view is > the harbinger of the Noble Eightfold Path. > > Phil: So that was a real eye-opener, and I think it's going to be > one of those things that really stays with me. > > Rob: Well, I'm glad. So where should we put our efforts? In fact, we > should put our effort into getting right view. > > Phil: It seems to me that compared to the other path factors, there' > s room for an intellectual approach – at the beginning. > > Rob: There are many levels of right view. > > Phil: Do you think it's easier perhaps to understand wrong view as a > starting point? > > Rob: Sure. If you don't understand wrong view, you'll think it's > right view. And when wrong view is present, people think it's right > view. Because wrong view always comes with lobha. So whenever people > have wrong view, they cannot see it. So as the understanding grows, > what you take for right view now, will probably seem very coarse. You > look back on what you thought was right was absolutely wrong. > > Phil: I can see it in my own case with the Brahma-Viharas. Now I can > see it was wrong. But I have a kind of faith that if we stay open to > the teaching and we find the right friends who can help us correct > our views You warn about the lobha related to Dhamma. But doesn't > the attachment that comes from your interest in Dhamma – if you are > open, and have the right friends – isn't it inevitably going to lead > you towards right understanding? > > Rob: From what I can see in Thailand. I see a lot of people that come > to listen to Khun Sujin, even people who come to listen for a long > time, still not having a particularly strong understanding. I mean > there are people with strong understanding, but I still see people > who are with her a long time, and it's still very intellectual. So I > don't think we can make a rule about that. > > Phil: But even the intellectual understanding in one lifetime could > be the condition for true understanding in another lifetime. > > Rob: Sure. Intellectual understanding is not to be devalued. But if > you want to be very deep at all unless it's related to what there > (there is at?) the moment. Unless lobha is seen as lobha. If you're > just going along in you're very satisfied way, "Yeah, I'm at the > Dhamma Study Group, I've got the right understanding" and you're > feeling very proud about that. You're not seeing conceit. And you' > re not seeing lobha at the moment. Then actually you're not gaining > that much. You'll gain a little bit from that intellectual > understanding, but it'll remain very (inaudible) > > Phil: That's something I'm aware of. Conceit about beginning to > understand Abhidhamma, all the terminology. > > Rob: Well if you're aware of it, that's OK. That's understanding. > I mean, people who are conceited won't even know they're conceited. > The really conceited person does not think they're conceited. The > person who's very conceited can't admit to it. I was talking to a > few people in Thailand. A group of officials, very keen on > Abhidhamma, just starting to learn about it. I said to one of them > that I have conceit sometimes when I study Abhidhamma. And this lady > was very sincere and said "Oh, whenever you think about Dhamma or > whenever you hear Dhamma you must never have conceit." And why did > she think that? Because she had some ideal of the way things should > be. And she's not actually aware of the realities of the present > moment. Conceit is a very natural reality. It's just coming again > and again. Your conceit about your body. Your conceit about your > intelligence. Whatever. Whatever, you know. That's you're a good > writer, or you're good at mathematics, or you're good at Dhamma. > > Phil: And that's not eradicated until… (scrambling to remember) > until… > > Rob: Until Arahat. But there has to be awareness of it, or we'll > never become an Arahat… > > Phil: So the awareness is there and….eradicate I think of as pulling > something out, finally removing it, but there's the loosening of the > roots > > Rob: Yeah, when we talk about eradication it's a very long process > of eradication. I mean, I sometimes read some internet groups, and > they think of becoming a sotapanna as some mystical thing. So you get > people saying. "Well, don't worry too much about annata, about > trying to understand annata, because it's very hard. Once you become > a sotapanna you'll understand annata. (lol) but to become a > sotapanna, it's the process of understanding annata step by step. > That's what becoming a sotapanna means. Finally at the point when > right view is really correct, then you become a sotapanna. So it's a > very gradual process. > > (end of pt 1) > > > Metta, > Phil 33623 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 5:59pm Subject: Translation of panna Dear DSGers The 2004 edition of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics is now available free online at http://jbe.gold.ac.uk and includes a thought-provoking academic-style article by Ethan Mills entitled "Cultivation of Moral Concern in Theravada Buddhism: Toward a Theory of the relation between Tranquility and Insight". In the article, he cites Damien Keown as holding the view that 'panna' is often mistranslated but really means "the knowledge of facts", something less than "wisdom". I note the first sentence of Nyanatiloka's definition as "'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide field". It goes on to say (as I read it) that Path panna is an "intuitive knowledge". What does that mean? Any thoughts? With best wishes Andrew 33624 From: Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Translation of panna Andrew: "I note the first sentence of Nyanatiloka's definition as "'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide field". It goes on to say (as I read it) that Path panna is an "intuitive knowledge". What does that mean? Any thoughts?" Hi Andrew, I think "intuitive" means seeing the reality of anicca, dukkha, anatta and "knowledge of facts" means understanding the concepts. Another player in this arena is belief (ditthi). Ditthi is a view, another kind of seeing. Larry 33625 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 9:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Nina / Sarah / others, I would like to summarize the recent points made on the heart base (hadayavatthu): On page 144 of In CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes: According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the physical support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity situated within the physical heart. I believe that the commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 111-113: This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is smooth outside and inside it is like the interior of a kosatakin (loofah gourd). In those who possess understanding, it is a little expanded; in those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur. That it one of greedy temperament is red; that in one of hating temperament is black; that it one of deluded temperament is like water that meat has been washed in; that in one of speculative temperament is like lentil soup in colour; that in one of faithful temperament is the colour of [yellow] kanikara flowers; that in one of understanding temperament is limpid, clear, unturbid, bright, pure, like a washed gem of pure water and it seems to shine. As to direction, it lies in the upper direction. As to location, it is to be found in the middle between the two breasts, inside the body. As to delimitation, it is bounded by what appertains to heart. It is my understanding (sorry, no primary reference) that in classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered in the heart. This was because it was clear that sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the ancient Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all blood makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind was centred in the heart. In my opinion, the fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a common understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind- consciousness element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the author of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind but did not want to enter into that argument that would distract from the point of the Abhidhamma. Some modern-day thinkers may want to replace "heart" with "brain" or "nervous system". I do not agree. Consider the rebirth linking (patisandhi) citta or the cittas which immediately follow the patisandhi citta. What is their physical base? Organs such as the heart, brain or nervous system are still not formed, so it cannot be any of these. I still prefer the wording of the Patthana, "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur". In summary, my position is: - The author of the Patthana got it right - An unnamed commentator applied the prevalent cardio-centric model of the mind and identified the heart as the physical base for the mind element and mind consciousness - Buddhaghosa included this incorrect concept of heart in his Visuddhimagga Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Rob M, > I fully endorse Sarah's statement about Buddhaghosa. Right, we better point > the finger to ourselves when we do not understand. > I think that when we study carefully and quietly the points where people, > even wellknown scholars, critize Buddhaghosa, we can find out that such > controversies are quite unnecessary. > I would like to clear up any criticism of Buddhaghosa, any doubt about > whether he is wrong, even in minor points. And for the Pali I can ask for > help from Suan as I did before. > Nina. > op 03-06-2004 09:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > S: Objection!!I don't understand B.Bodhi to have suggested that > > `Buddhaghosa got it wrong.' As I understand, in his comment he is giving a > > very brief summary of the detailed commentary note which goes to pains to > > show the reasons for `its reasonableness'. The orthodox Theravada > > tradition (including the Buddhist Councils as I understand) includes the > > Visuddhimagga and other ancient Pali commentaries. Buddhaghosa was a > > compiler of ancient commentaries -- as you agree -- brought to Sri lanka > > by the great arahant Mahinda. His compilation work was under the scrutiny > > of the great arahants in Sri Lanka at the time. (See `Buddhaghosa' in > > U.P.) > > > > Whenever I find any discrepancy or something which doesn't make sense, it > > always turns out to be my ignorance that's the problem, not the ancient > > commentators. I understand that this is a minority view;-). > > . 33626 From: Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Translation of panna Hi, Larry (and Andrew) - In a message dated 6/5/04 12:04:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Andrew: "I note the first sentence of Nyanatiloka's definition as > "'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide > field". It goes on to say (as I read it) that Path panna is an > "intuitive knowledge". > What does that mean? Any thoughts?" > > Hi Andrew, > > I think "intuitive" means seeing the reality of anicca, dukkha, anatta > and "knowledge of facts" means understanding the concepts. Another > player in this arena is belief (ditthi). Ditthi is a view, another kind > of seeing. > > Larry > ======================= I suspect that "intuitive knowledge" refers to direct cognitive understanding that does not involve reasoning. To check on the correctness of my view on this, I just did a dictionary look-up, and the article seems to confirm my understanding. It is the following: _____________________________ Main Entry: in·tu·i·tion Pronunciation: "in-tu-'wi-sh&n, -tyu- Function: noun Etymology: Middle English intuycyon, from Late Latin intuition-, intuitio act of contemplating, from Latin intuEri to look at, contemplate, from in- + tuEri to look at Date: 15th century 1 : quick and ready insight 2 a : immediate apprehension or cognition b : knowledge or conviction gained by intuition c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference - in·tu·i·tion·al /-'wish-n&l, -'wi-sh&-n&l/ adjective --------------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33627 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Likewise, teaching Dhamma, listening, repeating, reflecting, jhana > development can all be immediate supporting conditions, depending on the > accumulated pa~n~naa at the time. The Buddha never told us what to do or > not do, he taught about truths and conditions and anatta as I see it. For > those who can attain jhana like the many followers in the Buddha?s time, > it can be a natural decisive support condition for some with sufficient > wisdom of the path. If we were to attempt to follow as a practice or to > try to memorize texts for that matter or read Dhamma thinking it will in > itself lead to ?release?, these would be example of silabbattaparama (rite > and ritual adherence) and a view of self being able to control conditions > as I see it. Hi, Sarah! What you're saying make s a lot of sense, and keeps one from having a mental map of supporting conditions that is black and white. You are suggesting, as I think Buddha would approve, that we not hold onto any set view, while still understanding the principles that should be in play. If any of the things you mentioned which could be a supporting condition, including meditation i assume, are right for the individual, he or she will find their way to that supporting condition or action if conditions and propensity allow. Would you say that I have put that in a way that accords with what you have said? Best, Robert Ep. 33628 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 10:55pm Subject: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) Dear RobM, Sarah and friends, Thank you very much, Rob and Sarah! You are so helpful. I will present your reply to my friend during our next meeting. My friends and I are from Malaysia, a small town named Kajang in the State of Selangor.We just newly form the study group about 5 months ago and we only have meeting every two weeks. Basically, our mother language is Mandarin, so most of the books that we have and referred are in Mandarin. We are not really familiar with the English terms and might need to take some time to dig into the English version of Visuddhimagga and get the terms. However, some of the Mandarin version of books do include the pali terms. I have searched in the internet to get related topics and have downloaded the "Abhidhamma in daily life" by Nina and other materials too. Need time to read and digest them. We must say we are quite new and really need guidance from other `experts' :-) It really shock me the RobM is in/ From malaysia and teaching Abhidhamma? May I know where do you teach Abhidhamma, RobM? There are a few more questions, some are derived from RobM reply and some ae related questions. Hope you and friends in the group can help to clarify. Thanks. 1. According to Pa Auk Sayadaw, in order to determine the cakkhu pasaada in the kalaapa, we need to check for the colour from the nearby kalaapa impinges upon the pasaada. Is the colour in the kalaapa is a point of light or an image? When we see things from outside, is it the colour from out there impinges upon our eye or the colour from the nearby kalaapa? (Sorry, Sarah, I know you have answered this question, just need more understanding about this) 2. If the eye-consciousness arises at the eye, is it mean that the eye door process happens at the eye too, or is it happen at the hadayaruupa? 3. In the vatthusangaha part from "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", santiirana and the rest of (manovin~n~aan.a-dhaatu) is said to be stronger than mano-dhaatu and sampaticchana in the sense of regconising the aaramman.a because they have the same vatthu as the manovin~n~aan.a before and after. But the santiirana has different vatthu with the sampaticchana and the votthapana, why is it strong? 4. It is mentioned in one of the Pa Auk Sayadaw's books that when the aaramman.a (colour) impinges the eye, the same aarammana arises in the hadayaruupa at the same time. How does it happen? 5. What is the relationship within the patisandhi and the kammaja ruupa? Does the patisandhi affecting the kammaja ruupa? What is the cause of ahetu and hetu vipaka consciousness? Is it cause by the inspecting consciousness? When the patisandhi is one of the eight mahaavipaaka, how does the hetu-vipaka-consciousness take place? 6. Is there any other effect or function of tadaaramman.a besides registering in terms of causing vipaka or accumulating habits or causing potential of becoming habitual aaramman.a ? With metta, Lee 33629 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: Playing around with the past Hi Azita, --------------- Az: > Hello; missed meeting up with you again last Cooran time, but maybe I can make the next one if I know well in advance when it is. ---------- Excellent! As you know, we can't set a date until we hear if, and when, Robert K is going to visit. But you will be the first to know. ------------------- Az: > I like your last statement here and want to add my '2 cents worth'... ------------------- Thanks, when I wrote it I liked the sound of it (quite pithy) but, increasingly, I realised that it was also very true. -------------------- Az: > The meaningful is the fact that I've heard the dhamma and can understand, at least some of the time, that reality cannot be 'manipulated' to fit in with what I want, no matter how hard I try. so to accept this present moment for what it is, does take a large amount of patience, courage and good cheer and a degree of understanding. ---------------- I see what you mean: wanting to stop wanting and trying to stop trying won't get us anywhere: we need understanding. In the meantime, p, c and g c. ------------------ 'We are never free of Abhidhamma. People who have never heard of it are not free of it; people who have heard but hate it are not free of Abhidhamma; people who love it but never follow it and vice versa, are never free of it!!' [from my notebook dated 8/3/2519 B.E.] ----------- I'd like a copy of that notebook: a great source of pith AND substance. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 33630 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 1:22am Subject: Re: Playing around with the Past Hi Andrew, ---------------- A: > KenH and Azita, Thanks for your posts on this topic. ---------------- No worries, always happy to have the last word :-) ---------------------- A: > This exercise does seem to me to rest heavily upon self-view, but is obviously intended for use in the presence of a virulent form of resentment. > ----------------------- Yes, but remember the rule: rather than a prescribed course of action to be followed, this is a described course of action to be understood. ------------------------ A: > "I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another (S.i,75; Ud.47)" This, I think, points to the importance of remembering that others are just like "me" in all basic respects. ---------------- And the remembrance that `others are just like me' points to the meaning of what? Adosa? Alobha? Panna? I can't decide which. However, I do think that conventional morality lessons, when given by the Buddha, are meant to prepare us for understanding paramattha dhammas -- of one kind or another. Kind regards, Ken H 33631 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part I Hi Lee, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > My friends and I are > from Malaysia, a small town named Kajang in the State of Selangor.We > just newly form the study group about 5 months ago and we only have > meeting every two weeks. ===== I know Kajang. I pass by it almost every week on the North-South Highway on my way to and from KLIA. I must admit, though, I have never left the highway to visit. ===== > > Basically, our mother language is Mandarin, so most of the books that > we have and referred are in Mandarin. We are not really familiar with > the English terms and might need to take some time to dig into the > English version of Visuddhimagga and get the terms. However, some of > the Mandarin version of books do include the pali terms. I have > searched in the internet to get related topics and have downloaded the > "Abhidhamma in daily life" by Nina and other materials too. Need time > to read and digest them. We must say we are quite new and really need > guidance from other `experts' :-) ===== I have a spare copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" in Chinese if that would be of use to you. It was translated by the Penang Buddhist Association. ===== > > It really shock me the RobM is in/ From malaysia and teaching > Abhidhamma? May I know where do you teach Abhidhamma, RobM? ===== I am Canadian, born in Toronto where I realized that I was a Buddhist twenty-five years ago. I spent some time in Jakarta and Singapore before settling in KL thirteen years ago. On Sunday mornings, I teach "Abhidhamma for Beginners" at Brickfields (home to Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda). This is a one year course. As it turns out, I will be giving a five week Abhidhamma course each Saturday afternoon in July at Nalanda Buddhist Society in Taman Sri Serdang (not far from Kajang). This course will be in English (natrually), but most of the audience speak Mandarin. Many of your questions are quite technical and this is more of an introductory class, but you and your friends would probably enjoy it. Nalanda is a great place and offer Metta Meditation in Mandarin (many of the devotees are students from UPM). ===== > > There are a few more questions, some are derived from RobM reply and > some ae related questions. Hope you and friends in the group can help > to clarify. Thanks. > > 1. According to Pa Auk Sayadaw, in order to determine the cakkhu > pasaada in the kalaapa, we need to check for the colour from the > nearby kalaapa impinges upon the pasaada. Is the colour in the kalaapa > is a point of light or an image? When we see things from outside, is > it the colour from out there impinges upon our eye or the colour from > the nearby kalaapa? (Sorry, Sarah, I know you have answered this > question, just need more understanding about this) ===== A "visible object" is that which presents itself at the eye door in a small fraction of a second. As an analogy, visible object is like a single frame from a movie film. Each frame is seen as a visible object and the mind merges them together into a continuous stream. After the eye-door process, there will be a few bhavanga mental states followed by a mind-door process taking the same rupa (visible object) as object. This is called a "conformational" process (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi) that effectively "copies the rupa into a mental object". The mind may then go and deal with other sense doors before coming back and grabbing another visible object from the eye-door. A mind-door process then grasps the object as a whole (samudayagahika) and "glues together" distinct "frames" to create a perception of unity. It is at this early stage in the process that the perversion of perception (sannavipallasa) takes place; more on this can be found in the commentaries to the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1). There are then mind-door processes that recognize the colour (vannasallakkhana). I believe that the point that Pa Auk Sayadaw is making is that the recognizing of colour happens after multiple distinct "frames" have been "glued together". The following mind-door processes grasp the shape (vatthugahika), recognize the shape (vatthusallakkhana), grasp the name (namagahika) and recognize the name (namasallakkhana). ===== > > 2. If the eye-consciousness arises at the eye, is it mean that the eye > door process happens at the eye too, or is it happen at the hadayaruupa? ===== Only the eye-consciousness citta arises at the eye. The remaining cittas in the eyd-door process have hadayarupa as base. ===== > > 3. In the vatthusangaha part from "A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma", santiirana and the rest of (manovin~n~aan.a-dhaatu) is > said to be stronger than mano-dhaatu and sampaticchana in the sense of > regconising the aaramman.a because they have the same vatthu as the > manovin~n~aan.a before and after. But the santiirana has different > vatthu with the sampaticchana and the votthapana, why is it strong? ===== The sequence of the first few cittas in a sense door process (very great object) is as follows: 1. Past Bhavanga (base = mind, object = object from past existence) 2. Vibrating Bhavanga (base = mind, object = object from past existence) 3. Arresting Bhavanga (base = mind, object = object from past existence) 4. Five Door Adverting (base = mind, object = new rupa) 5. Eye Consciousness (base = eye, object = new rupa) 6. Receiving Consciousness (base = mind, object = new rupa) 7. Investigating Consciousness (base = mind, object = new rupa) 8. Determining Consciousness (base = mind, object = new rupa) In this process, the two cittas which involve a very weak grasp on the object are the Five Door Adverting and the two possible Receiving Consciousness (one kusala vipaka, one akusala vipaka). These are the mind-element (manodhatu) cittas. The remaining cittas (except for the ten sense door consciousness cittas) are all mind-consciousness element (manovinnanadhatu) and are strong because the cittas arising before and after all have the same base. The Five Door Adverting Citta involves a weak grasp because moving from citta #3 -> #4 in the process involves a change of object (past object -> new rupa). The two possible Receiving Consciousness involve a weak grasp because moving from citta #5 -> #6 in the process involves a change of base (eye -> mind). Why do you say that the Investigating Consciousness (Santirana) has a different base (vatthu) with the Receiving Consciousness (Sampaticchana) and the Determining Consciousness (Votthapana)? ===== > > 4. It is mentioned in one of the Pa Auk Sayadaw's books that when the > aaramman.a (colour) impinges the eye, the same aarammana arises in the > hadayaruupa at the same time. How does it happen? ===== Arammana is object (colour is vanna). An object (rupa) arises for the duration of 17 cittas. If we look at the numbered sequence above, we can see that the first three cittas "ignored" the new rupa. The fourth and sixth to seventeenth cittas access the object through the hadayarupa while the fifth citta accesses the object through the eye base. ===== > > 5. What is the relationship within the patisandhi and the kammaja > ruupa? Does the patisandhi affecting the kammaja ruupa? What is the > cause of ahetu and hetu vipaka consciousness? Is it cause by the > inspecting consciousness? When the patisandhi is one of the eight > mahaavipaaka, how does the hetu-vipaka-consciousness take place? > > 6. Is there any other effect or function of tadaaramman.a besides > registering in terms of causing vipaka or accumulating habits or > causing potential of becoming habitual aaramman.a ? > ===== Sorry Lee, I am short of time today and these remaining questions require more than a one-sentence answer. I will try to get some time tomorrow to answer the remaining questions (or perhaps somebody else will jump in). One clarification, what do you mean by "inspecting consciousness"? Metta, Rob M :-) 33632 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part II Hi Lee, I have time to sneak in one more answer... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > 5. What is the relationship within the patisandhi and the kammaja > ruupa? Does the patisandhi affecting the kammaja ruupa? ===== At the time of death, kamma-born kalapas no longer arise starting with the seventeenth citta preceding the death citta (to be technical, it is the arising portion of this citta). Kamma-born kalapas that arose earlier occur until the death citta and then cease together with it. Following that, the kalapas born of citta and nutriment cease. Then the body remains a mass of inanimate material phenomena born of temperature and continues as such until the corpse is reduced to dust. To be technical, the arising of the cuti citta is the last moment of arising of mind-born matter. The cessation of the cuti citta is the cessation of the kamma-born matter and the last moment of arising of nutriment-born matter. Immediately following the dissolution of the death citta, there arises in a new existence the rebirth-linking (patisandhi) citta, having the same object as that in the final cognitive process of the previous life. This rebirth citta is a resultant citta produced by the kamma responsible for the objects apprehended during the final, but crucial, moments of consciousness prior to death. With its arising, this same kamma produces kalapas which set off a chain reaction by generating more kalapas born of the internal fire-element and nutriment and thereafter by combination with the external fire- element and nutriment. In the meantime, the cittas following the rebirth-citta will also start to produce kalapas, all this leading eventually to an intricate as a fetus, or the spontaneous body of the new being (hell being, spirit, Deva or Brahma). To be technical, the arising of the patisandhi citta is the first moment of arising of kamma-born matter. The presence (after arising, before falling away) of the patisandhi citta is the moment of arising of temperature-born matter and the arising of the citta following the patisandhi citta is the first moment of arising of citta-born matter. Metta, Rob M :-) 33633 From: Philip Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 4:26am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma ?@?@Talk with Rob pt.2 I was telling Rob about how I came to be interested in Abhidhamma. Phil: Soon after coming to the group I read a post by Jon about how studying Abhidhamma before studying the suttana is recommended. Rob. In Sri Lanka in the old days it?fs generally believed the monks used to start with the Abhidhamma (couldn?ft catch the next word in the title) which is like a summary of the Abhidhamma, then move on to everything else, because that single book gives you the basis to having better understanding. Phil: And that?fs what happened next. I took that hint, and I opened ?gAbhidhamma in Daily Life?h and almost immediately I was hooked. But at the beginning it was definitely conceit. There was this attraction to the language and terminology and this sense that it was a difficult book. But that got me in, that drew me in. Rob: There was also wisdom there. I mean, there?fs probably understanding because of your past accumulations from past lives. I mean, immediately there is wisdom, and lobha about that wisdom, you see. Alternating. It doesn?ft mean there was no wisdom. It doesn?ft mean it was all lobha. I mean, for someone else who hasn?ft had that past life experience, those accumulations, they might read it and say ?gwhat rubbish?h and never look at it again. Phil: That?fs what?fs happened when I?fve tried to share it with folks at other groups, even Theravadin folks. There hasn?ft been anyone yet who.. Rob: Well, it?fs very rare. And this is a sign of the decline of Buddhism. And it?fs all predicted by the Buddha. You can?ft do anything about it, other than make it available for people like you. Phil So, in any case, I found that I was in this almost feverish state. I was waking up in the middle of the night and reading it like I used to read the Hardy Boys when I was a kid?c Rob: Well, there?fs right effort there too. There might be conceit and lobha, but there?fs also right effort there. That?fs right effort it. It?fs not because you decided, right, for two weeks I?fm going to have right effort. I mean, the conditions were there. Suddenly there were enough conditions for understanding and right effort to come there. I mean, someone else could say ?gright! I?fm going to have right effort?h and do completely the wrong thing. But you?fre doing the right thing. Phil: I?fve also learned that right effort is what rises when we make the effort to really penetrate realities in the moment. Rob: There can be wrong effort too, at that moment. It depends if there is panna there or not. Phil: So what excited me was - I?fd read of annata hundreds of times but I?fd never had any degree of understanding. But suddenly it seemed the Abhidhamma laid out the map to beginning to understand annata. Rob: Right. Abhidhamma has one flavour. The flavour of annata. That?fs what it says. One taste. One flavour. Phil: And I think you say understanding annata is the place to begin. Rob: Yeah. (end of part 2) 33634 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 5:16am Subject: Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [...] > In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly > mentioned. [...] [...] >Consider the rebirth linking > (patisandhi) citta or the cittas which immediately follow the > patisandhi citta. What is their physical base? Organs such as the > heart, brain or nervous system are still not formed, so it cannot be > any of these. I still prefer the wording of the Patthana, "that > matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness > element occur". [...] thanks for summarizing the hart thing. seems, we have no idea what Buddhaghosa is talking about. :o) btw, why do this first citta (patisandhi) has to have phisical base? metta, Agrios 33635 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 0:42am Subject: The Thread to Freedom ! Friends: What is the Cause of Release ? Morality causes right action. Right Action causes freedom from remorse. Freedom from regrets causes joy. Joy causes rapture. Rapture causes calm satisfaction. Calmness causes happiness. Happiness causes concentration. Concentration causes seeing & knowing reality. Vision & Knowledge of the real causes disgust. Disgust causes disillusion through understanding. Disillusion causes detachment, relinquishment & release. Release causes Freedom by breaking the clinging ... Release causes Peace by the stilling of craving ... Release causes Bliss by ending the suffering ... Release is thus the final product, profit & advantage of good & clever behaviour! Morality is thus the foundation of Freedom! Right conduct is therefore the origin of Bliss! What is then the Source of Gladness ? When being thus taught the true Saddhamma; When thus teaching the true Saddhamma; When thus reviewing the true Saddhamma; When thus reciting the true Saddhamma; When thus seeing signs of the true Saddhamma; the inspiration gained causes Gladness to arise !!! Gladness makes joyous rapture arise. Rapture satisfies mind until calm tranquility pervades. When truly calmed, a happy pleasure is experienced. Dwelling in Ease, mind is composed, focused & concentrated. Such stilled, fixed & anchored, yet effectively penetrating mind; Finds Determination ... Finds Will of Zeal ... Finds Enthusiastic Energy ... To eliminate mental bonds & defilements not yet fully destroyed ... To reach many yet unattained infinite depths of Peace ... To win the yet unsurpassed bliss of ultimate Freedom ... Yeah ! Sources: The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikaya V 313 + III 20: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/index.html http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 33636 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati Dear Azita, Thank you for sharing with us your notebook, I like to encourage you to do this more often. op 02-06-2004 13:17 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: A: The intelligent, skillful way to live is the way of the Buddha. > Firstly, by following the precepts - with right understanding - one > can live wholesomely. > We do many absent-minded actions in the one day. N: Yes, when we consider metta the observing of the precepts can come very naturally. We do not consider the precepts as rules that are imposed upon us, that restrict our lives, but we can see them in a very positive way, as I try to explain in my series on Brahma viharas. Sila is inspiring, uplifting, encouraging. A: The most skillful thing we can do with our bodies is to use it to > give useful things to other beings ,to give kindness when and > wherever we can, to help other people when there are opportunities - > not to let these opportunities fall by - bec then its too late. N: I appreciate more and more all these things you mention. They seem not very impressive, but they are important. Being quick to act, I learnt so much from A. Sujin and the other Dhamma friends. A: If we mix up the skillful with the unskillful , how are we ever > going to know which to develop and which to eradicate. N: We need truthfulness, so that we can rectify our views on kusala and akusala, and that in the practice of daily life. That is kusala kamma of rectifying or straightening one's views. A: Social reform comes about by reforming oneself and once one > realises that there is no self, then one's idea of social reform > changes. One realizes that one is not as powerful as formerly > believed. N: Metta and all kusala dhammas are cetasikas, non-self. When shall we really understand this, not merely in theory? Thank you, Nina. 33637 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:39am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, ch 3, no 6 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 6 We read in the scriptures that there were disciples who developed jhåna and vipassanå and disciples who developed only vipassanå. The objects of vipassanå are whatever reality appears in daily life through one of the six doorways. Vipassanå is developed in stages, and in the beginning of its development, the different objects and doorways are not clearly separated. One confuses visible object which is rúpa and seeing which is nåma. It seems that we can see and think or see and hear at the same time. When the first stage of vipassanå is reached the characteristics of nåma and rúpa are clearly distinguished and appear as such through the mind-door. So long as we have not reached that stage we do not know precisely what the mind-door is. Nåma is experienced through the mind-door and rúpa is experienced through its appropriate sense-door and after that through the mind-door. During the moments of insight it is known what the mind-door is. When vipassanå is developed it is also accompanied by samådhi, concentration. Samådhi or ekaggatå cetasika, one-pointedness, arises with each citta and its function is focussing on one object. Usually its characteristic does not appear. Samådhi becomes stronger as paññå develops. At the moment of insight knowledge, there is momentary concentration, khanika samådhi. Samådhi performs its function of concentration of the eightfold Path. When vipassanå is further developed, dhammas can be realized as they are, as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Ch 2, § 71) that the Buddha said that whoever of the monks could not understand the arising and destruction, the satisfaction and the misery of the sixfold sphere of contact, did not live the righteous life and was far from this Dhamma and Discipline. One of the monks said that he could not understand these things and was in despair. The Buddha said to him: ³Now, what do you think, monk? Do you regard these thus: ŒThis is mine. This am I. This is myself¹ ?² ³No indeed, lord.² ³Well said, monk. And herein, monk, by right understanding as it really is: ŒThis eye is not mine. This am I not. This is not myself,¹ the eye will have been rightly seen. That is the end of dukkha. So also as regards mind... That is the end of dukkha.¹ **** Nina 33638 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:39am Subject: Brahmaviharas, no 1 Dear friends, Brahmaviharas, I I shall quote from the tape which is a lecture on the Brahmaviharas given by A. Sujin to police officers. They took a great interest in the practice of the Brahma-viharas while performing their duty as police officer. I shall also quote from her book on the Perfections, and I shall add what Lodewijk and I discussed about the Brahmaviharas. In her lecture A. Sujin pointed out the danger of akusala that increases each day, and she explained that the Brahma- viharas can condition calm of citta in daily life. We have learnt about akusala sila, unwholesome deeds through body and speech, but how are our thoughts? We should not be neglectful with regard to our actions, speech and thoughts. A. Sujin stressed truthfulness or sincerity and resolution. N: we should be truthful as to our cittas: is the citta kusala citta or akusala citta? Do we take for kusala citta what is in reality akusala citta? We need determination for all kinds of kusala. When panna sees the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala this will condition the arising of kusala citta. A. Sujin stressed the connection between sila and metta. Sila includes not only abstention from akusala kamma, it also includes paying respect to those who deserve it and helping others, rendering service. I quote from A. Sujin¹s ³Wholesome Deeds²: ²The citta can be respectful by abstaining from hurting or harming others through body, speech or mind.² N: When there is metta we do not disturb the happiness of others or cause them to be in trouble. We do not think of ourselves expecting friendship from others. Metta or friendship arises with the citta, and if we expect something for ourselves there is no true metta. Thus, we need truthfulness, sincerity at all times. The near ennemy of metta is attachment. We may take for metta what is selfish love. If someone sees another person as object of attachment he has no respect for that person, he does not help him to have kusala citta. He harms himself and the other person. He also lacks respect of the Buddha who taught the way leading to the elimination of akusala and the development of right understanding. The connection between sila and metta as explained by A. Sujin I find an inspiring way of considering abstention from akusala in action, speech and thoughts. When there is metta there are no conditions for akusala through body, speech and mind. We shall not hurt or harm others through actions or speech, we shall abstain from akusala kamma. We consider other people as true friends and that means that we shall help them to be free from what is harmful and dangerous. We shall help them to have kusala citta. ***** Nina. 33639 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:44am Subject: Patthana Dhamma & Daily Life Dear Dhamma Friends, There have been appeared on web page 35 and page 36 of 'Patthana Dhamma'. Currently, the discussion of patthana dhamma is on arammana paccaya. The page 35 can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana35.html . In that page, the first page is linked. If pages are viewed from the first page which can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html , it will be a bit easier. Messages are not too long to manage. The page 36 is about ruparamma or visual object and its resultant dhamma cakkhuvinnana citta and their relation. This can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana36.html . Some may think that patthana is not necessary to deeply understand. But actually patthana dhamma can be seen in our daily life and if patthana dhamma can be understood, then the practice of dhamma will be at ease and there will not be much difficulty. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33640 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:19am Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The journey has been started. That is the journey to nibbana. We are approaching the Path which leads to nibbana. Some of members may have been on the Path that is Noble Eightfold Path while others are just approaching. Noble Eightfold Path comprises eight components as the name implies. These eight components are right view, right thinking, right action, right speech, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Saying so seems very simple and if not well learned, these statements may stand as blank words. But in each word of these eight components has full essence and they do need to be understood. Right view to start with is easy to say. But what is right view in real term? If such a question arises, it may be difficult to answer. This 'right view' is taken from translation of Pali term 'samma-ditthi'. Samma means 'right' , 'decent' , 'genuine' , 'true' and 'ditthi' here means 'view' or 'the way that is seen'. Samma-ditthi is right view and it removes wrong views at all cost. As long as right view is there, no wrong view can arise. Right view in a single moment is the act of pannindriya cetasika or panna or wisdom that associated with citta while viewing things. What is the right view? It looks at and understands that there are sufferings and knows what are suffering. If sufferings are not understood, then there is no right view. Right view understands that there is a cause that creates all sorts of sufferings. If the existence of this cause is not seen then any view without this is all wrong view and right view cannot exist in this instance. Right view understands that there is cessation of all sorts of sufferings. This cessation or extinguishment of all fire of defilements is nibbana. If this existence of nibbana is not understood, there will not be right view. And right view knows that there is a unique and single Path leading to cessation of all sufferings. When the existence of this single Path is not understood, there will not be right view. The belief that takes a path other than Noble Eightfold Path can lead to cessation of sufferings is not a right view. We have passed on this several times and we now have the right view. Having right view leads us to right thinking or right resolve. As our view is right, all thoughts associated with right view will become right thought. We have started the journey and our vehicle of 'understanding' has started to move forward leading to 'right thought'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... 33641 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:40am Subject: Re: Brahmaviharas, no 1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear friends, Brahmaviharas, I N: When there is metta we do not disturb the happiness of others or cause them to be in trouble. We do not think of ourselves expecting friendship from others. The near ennemy of metta is attachment. We may take for metta what is selfish love. If someone sees another person as object of attachment he has no respect for that person, he does not help him to have kusala citta. The connection between sila and metta as explained by A. Sujin I find an inspiring way of considering abstention from akusala in action, speech and thoughts. ... ..true friends and that means that we shall help them to be free from what is harmful and dangerous. We shall help them to have kusala citta. ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for this post 'Brahmaviharas no 1. I have read your book 'loving kindness'. I read it last year. Your messages are very clear. Metta is pure thing and we do not need to expect friendship from those who we have helped by any means and in any way. As soon as that kind of attachment arises, metta has already gone. Metta and attachment do not stay together. As long as metta stays in our mind, there is calmness and tranquility. If we are proficient, this calmness may lead to even absorption. By basing metta, we can step on mahasatipatthana and approach the Path leading to cessation of suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33642 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma Hi Phil, Reading this series with joy! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > ?@?@Talk with Rob pt.2 > Rob. In Sri Lanka in the old days it?fs generally believed the > monks used to start with the Abhidhamma (couldn?ft catch the next > word in the title) which is like a summary of the Abhidhamma, then > move on to everything else, because that single book gives you the > basis to having better understanding. Rob K was talking about the Abhidhammatthasangaha by Acariya Anuruddha. Bhikkhu Bodhi's Pali text, translation and explanatory guide (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma or CMA as it often referred to on DSG) is a "must have" on the bookshelf of any student of Abhidhamma. Metta, Rob M :-) 33643 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part III Hi Lee, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > What is the > cause of ahetu and hetu vipaka consciousness? Is it cause by the > inspecting consciousness? ===== There are 15 (rootless resultant) ahetu vipaka cittas: - 5 akusala vipaka sense door consciousness: ripening of a past unwholesome kammic action - 5 kusala vipaka sense door consciousness: ripening of a past wholesome kammic action - 2 receiving consciousness, one akusala and one kusala: ripening of a past unwholesome / past wholesome kammic action - 3 investigating consciousness, one akusala and two kusala: ripening of a past unwholesome / past wholesome kammic action Within a sense door process or a mind door process, all vipaka cittas in that process are the result of the same past kammic action. So one factor conditioning the arising of these cittas is past kamma (either akusala or kusala). A second factor conditioning the arising of these cittas (in fact a factor conditioning the arising of all cittas) is the falling away of the previous citta. This is through proximity, contiguity, absense and disappearance condition. A third factor conditioning the arising of these cittas is the intrinsic nature of the object of the sense door process. An intrinsically unpleasant object (anittha) is a condition for an akusala vipaka citta. An intrinsically neutral object (itta) or an intrinsically pleasant object (ati-ittha) is a condition for a kusala vipaka citta. An intrinsically pleasant object (ati-ittha) is a condition for an investigating citta with pleasant feeling. In addition to their role in a sense-door citta process, two of these rootless cittas can also perform the function of bhavanga: - Akusala vipaka investigating consciousness: bhavanga for beings in the four woeful planes - Kusala vipaka investigating consciousness: bhavanga for disabled humans and certain earth-bound devas The same three conditioning factors come into play to support the arising of bhavanga cittas: - Kamma (in this case it is the kamma leading to rebirth) - Falling away of previous citta (in the case of a patisandhi citta, it is the falling away of the cuti citta from the previous existence) - Nature of object (taken from previous existence; may be kamma, sign of kamma or sign of destiny) There are 21 resultant vipaka cittas with roots: - 8 mahavipaka cittas: these are the bhavanga cittas for beings in human realm or sensous deva realm; they may have two roots (missing panna) or three roots. Beings with two roots cannot obtain jhana or path in this existence. - 5 rupavacara vipaka cittas: these are the bhavanaga cittas for beings in the rupaloka plane of existence - 4 arupavacara vipaka cittas: these are the bhavanga cittas for beings in the arupaloka plane of existence - 4 lokuttara vikapa cittas (fruits): these are the result of path cittas (only arise in sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami and arahant) The same three conditioning factors mentioned above come into play to support the arising of bhavanga cittas. Fruit cittas arise immediately after the path citta in the citta process where one obtains a new degree of sainthood. They also arise in the mind of a saint (phalasamapatti process) in which case they follow a path citta. Another special case is the attainment of extinction process (nirodhasamapatti process) in which case the fruit citta is preceded by a jhana citta. ===== > When the patisandhi is one of the eight > mahaavipaaka, how does the hetu-vipaka-consciousness take place? ===== My previous answer explains the main conditions leading to the arising of all bhavanga cittas (including patisandhi and including kamaloka, rupaloka and arupaloka). ===== > > 6. Is there any other effect or function of tadaaramman.a besides > registering in terms of causing vipaka or accumulating habits or > causing potential of becoming habitual aaramman.a ? The registration citta is a vipaka citta, a result of the same kammic force that gave rise to the sense-door citta, receiving citta and investigating citta in the citta process. The function of the registration citta is to mark the object so that it may be noted in a subsequent mind door process. Objects that are not "very great" (in the case of sense door objects) or "clear" (in the case of mind door objects) do not get marked and therefore fail to support sustained thought. This function is only required in the kamaloka (there is no registration required to sustain thought in the rupaloka or arupaloka planes of existence). It is the javana cittas that play the role of causing vipaka and accumulating habits. An object becomes habitual through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). It is the strength of the volition in the javana citta which causes it to become habitual. None of these have anything to do with registration. Lee, sorry if I got too technical in points... Metta, Rob M :-) 33644 From: Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Translation of panna Hi Andrew In a common manner of thinking we might think that "knowledge of facts" is less than wisdom. However, I believe it is here meant as the highest type of wisdom. It "knows" the way things work and therefore knows the problems and solutions. The Buddha taught very specific things in very detailed and accurate ways. Sort of like an engineer of the mind and matter. Intuitive knowledge is knowledge that is so well learned and understood that it is "just with you." An expert pianist can sit down and play a piece of music without the need to think about it. This is because the preliminary work of practicing and thinking about notes, keys, etc., has been done over and over in the past. Same thing with riding a bike or any kind of skill. After we've learned how to ride a bike we can just do it "intuitively" without the need of thinking about how to keep balance, or pedal, or brake. I'm sure there's other ideas out there but that's the way I see it. TG In a message dated 6/4/2004 6:00:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: Dear DSGers The 2004 edition of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics is now available free online at http://jbe.gold.ac.uk and includes a thought-provoking academic-style article by Ethan Mills entitled "Cultivation of Moral Concern in Theravada Buddhism: Toward a Theory of the relation between Tranquility and Insight". In the article, he cites Damien Keown as holding the view that 'panna' is often mistranslated but really means "the knowledge of facts", something less than "wisdom". I note the first sentence of Nyanatiloka's definition as "'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide field". It goes on to say (as I read it) that Path panna is an "intuitive knowledge". What does that mean? Any thoughts? With best wishes Andrew 33645 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma Hi Philip, very good. Just last time A. Sujin said: the Abhidhamma helps us to understand anatta. Nina. op 05-06-2004 13:26 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > But suddenly it > seemed the Abhidhamma laid out the map to beginning to understand > annata. > > Rob: Right. Abhidhamma has one flavour. The flavour of annata. > That?fs what it says. One taste. One flavour. > > Phil: And I think you say understanding annata is the place to begin. > 33646 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Playing around with the Past Hi Ken, op 05-06-2004 10:22 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > And the remembrance that `others are just like me' points to the > meaning of what? Adosa? Alobha? Panna? I can't decide which. > However, I do think that conventional morality lessons, when given > by the Buddha, are meant to prepare us for understanding paramattha > dhammas -- of one kind or another. N: That is why I like more and more the simple things of daily life A. Sujin gives enlightening advices about. The application of the Dhamma and panna takes the lead. Nina. 33647 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Rob M, I shall now quote Tiika Vis and my comments: The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the > (material) support for the mind-element and for the > mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. N: to observe: the Pali has: aadhaarana: the meaning is: being a container, foundation, support, holding up. In the five khandha planes where there are nama and rupa, cittas need a physical base, foundation. They do not arise independently of the body. The five sense-cognitions have the sense bases as physical support, and all the other cittas, namely, mind-element and the mind-consciousness-element (see explanation in the other post) have as support what is called the heartbase, an infinitely tiny rupa arising and falling away. Text: It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on > the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of > the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart. N: let us first look at the footnote : text: Vism. VIII, 111. This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour > of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a > lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is > smooth outside, and inside it is like the interior of a kosataki (loofah > gourd). In those who possess understanding it is a little expanded; in > those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is a > hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of > blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and > mind-consciousness element occur. N: We have to go back in time centuries and centuries. What was the intention of the commentators? To see the heartbase as not worth clinging to, not beautiful. It is only the tiniest element performing a function. The last sentence is the core: The reality of that base is expressed by means of conventional terms to help people at that time to understand it correctly. We should not reject the terms used here, but consider what is really essential. Blood, inside the heart: we have to understand the rupa dhamma these words stand for. That is what really matters. The purpose was not an anatomical lesson. I realy see no problem here. I also made a general remark: I quote from the Co to the Yamaka (Abhidhamma): Good to remember when one believes that there are inconsistencies. Heartbase is a subtle rupa only to be known through the mind-door. It is infinitesimally tiny. It can perform the function of base for cittas and then it falls away immediately. Kamma produces it throughout life, even at each of the three submoments of citta (of arising, presence and falling away). Budhaghosa knew all this, but he used figurative language to explain. Actually it is in the same way as he explained the eye: as tiny as a lousehead: < There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton.> I think it is great! Again not an anatomical lesson. It helps people not to cling to the eye. Nina. Another remark by U. Narada: U. Narada, p. 175: _____ Nina. op 05-06-2004 06:14 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > In summary, my position is: > - The author of the Patthana got it right > - An unnamed commentator applied the prevalent cardio-centric model > of the mind and identified the heart as the physical base for the > mind element and mind consciousness > - Buddhaghosa included this incorrect concept of heart in his > Visuddhimagga 33648 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part I Hi Rob M, In the following mind-door process, the object is still visible object, as I understand it. It is not mental object. As you also say, taking the same rupa as object. It is rupa, not anything else. The three characteristics of both nama and rupa have to be realized. If rupa could not be directly experienced through the mind-door, how could it ever be realized as impermanent, dukkha, anatta? Nina. op 05-06-2004 10:32 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > After the eye-door process, there will be a few bhavanga mental > states followed by a mind-door process taking the same rupa (visible > object) as object. This is called a "conformational" process > (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi) that effectively "copies the rupa into > a mental object". 33649 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part I Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > In the following mind-door process, the object is still visible object, as I > understand it. It is not mental object. As you also say, taking the same > rupa as object. It is rupa, not anything else. > The three characteristics of both nama and rupa have to be realized. If rupa > could not be directly experienced through the mind-door, how could it ever > be realized as impermanent, dukkha, anatta? > Nina. > op 05-06-2004 10:32 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > After the eye-door process, there will be a few bhavanga mental > > states followed by a mind-door process taking the same rupa (visible > > object) as object. This is called a "conformational" process > > (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi) that effectively "copies the rupa into > > a mental object". ===== I agree that the object of the conformational mind door process is still the visible object. Where I am having difficulty is describing the function of this conformational mind door process. I inserted 'effectively' as a "squirm word" and put "copies the rupa into a mental object" in quotes in an effort to convey that my statement should not be taken too literally. Please help me find a better way of expressing the function of the conformational mind door process. Metta, Rob M :-) 33650 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 1:08am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep, Thank you for your kind words, I too am enjoying our conversation and I will never tire of the topic – `formal practice.' (Groans all round.) :-) Thank you for conceding that the opinions on my side of the argument are in accordance with the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries. However, you don't share my enthusiasm for those sources: -------------- R: > I trust them as brilliant commentators and technicians, but do not warrant them the wisdom that perhaps you may, to freely intrepret what the Buddha said in terms that are quite different from what he actually stated. And sometimes this is the case. If you don't agree with this, I will try to provide a specific example. But since I don't want to get too side-tracked I will leave that out for now. --------------- Never mind that it's a sidetrack; any apparent difference of that kind is an urgent topic of discussion for dsg. However, to summarise the main track so far; we were talking about the four factors for enlightenment: association with the wise, hearing the Dhamma, wise reflection on the Dhamma and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. You maintain that the last named factor includes, not only satipatthana but also, formal practice. You agree that the Abhidhamma and Commentaries see it differently but you think: ------------- > Abhidhamma analysis, which is not explicitly mentioned in the suttas, came into being after the lifetime of the Buddha. > ------------- On this list, them's fightin' words! They should, at least, be prefaced by "IMHO." :-) Please see the Useful Posts on this topic. (I am not saying your, contrary, posts are not useful, but the UP's are useful for understanding the strictly Theravada point of view.) ---------------- R: > So there is always an element of judgment and speculation when it comes to assigning "Right Practice" to something that the Buddha did not explicitly mention as a practice himself. ---------------- I honestly don't see any problem or controversy in interpreting "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" as "satipatthana." One qualification might be that, for a sotapanna or above, `practice in accordance with the Dhamma' would include all vipassana, not just the mundane variety known as satipatthana. As I said in my previous message, I think formal practice, if it is to be seen as a factor for enlightenment, would have to be included in one of the first three factors. But formal practice, which you define as "meditation with the aim of satipatthana in mind," simply doesn't fit any of the descriptions. So, we are back to trying to include it in the fourth factor -- which would now have to be interpreted as "both satipatthana and meditation with the aim of satipatthana in mind." You have put your case in favour of this very eloquently and I'm sure you will have a lot of support. But, just as you see the opposing case as "tortured," so do I see yours. Yours lacks consistency with anatta -- the central doctrine of the Dhamma. ------------- R: > the abdication of Buddha's obvious teachings that don't happen to fit with Abhidhamma's philosophical leanings do not do Abhidhamma good service. ------------- Obvious in what way? In the normal, conventional view of the world, your interpretations are obvious. In the uniquely anatta-centred Buddhist view of the world, they are tortured. On the other hand, the Abhidhamma's explanations are not tortured: they might not be obvious but they are consistent with anatta. ------------ R: > It undercuts its efficacy by taking practitioners away from practices that are beneficial and part of the Buddhist path. In my opinion this is a grave error. > ------------ We both feel there is a grave error but for completely opposite reasons. :-). ------------------------- R: > If Buddha had the same aim as those who make the above argument to warn that breathing itself is not a special object and should not be taken as a primary object of practice, I think he was smart enough [omniscient in fact] that he would have warned that his teaching in this sutta was not meant to imply that breath *should* be taken as the object of medtitation, or that meditation should be undertaken as a practice. He gave no such warning, though he gave countless specific warnings against other dangers on the path. > -------------- But didn't he warn in numerous suttas that understanding, as distinct from concentration, was the key to enlightenment? Only through defiance, in the face of this warning, has formal practice taken the place of "association with the wise, hearing the Dhamma and wise consideration of the Dhamma." -------------- R: > I think that the crucial point is whether Buddha advocated practices and whether it is possible to practice while not affirming the existence of a practitioner. In my opinion, Buddha would not have taken something that is an experience, something that is not practiced, but is a result of certain conditions, and call it a practice. Again, let's be obvious about it. A practice is something that is practiced. It tortures the definition of a practice to say that satipatthana *is* the practice. ------------------------- I have no sympathy with this argument, Rob. Here you seem to be saying, "Forget the Dhamma (the teaching of conditionality): be guided by whatever seems most logical." ------------------------ R: > Satipatthana is the fruit of a practice, and that practice is the practice of mindfulness. Whether one engages in the practice of simple sati through formal or informal meditation, or merely by focussing upon the arising of experience in the moment does not make a crucial difference. What matters is that one is bound to be unsuccessful in experiencing satipatthana, and that repeated concentration [Right Concentration] in this practice [Right Practice] with the correct kind of effort [Right Effort] will eventually train the mind to be concentrated and mindful and lead to the conditions that create the more extended experience of satipatthana, vipassana, and bring one into the stream of experience that leads to enlightenment. > ----------------- Well, that is one interpretation of the Dhamma; it is certainly not the Abhidhamma's or the Commentaries' interpretation. It applies vastly different meanings to the Pali terms. Who is to say which interpretation is right? You know where my money will be. :-) ------------------ R: > If one affirms that there is such a path of practice recommended by the Buddha and that it should be engaged in the same way that one engages with sutta reading and conversation such as that which occurs on this list, is one by doing so affirming that there is a being, entity, self or soul existent within the khandas? > -------------------- Hearing, studying and discussion (of the Dhamma) are to be *understood* as factors leading to practice in accordance the Dhamma. Understanding is the chief condition for the arising of those factors. Any attempt at forcing their arising will be motivated by lobha and/or moha. Now, it might be argued that formal practice should, likewise, be understood as a factor for enlightenment. And that it will then be conditioned in the same way as the other factors. But the Buddha did not say that it was a factor. And there is no need to infer that it is a factor. So any `understanding' that conditions formal practice it will not be actual understanding (panna), it will be ditthi (or miccha-ditthi, wrong-view, wrong-understanding). Rob, in the rest of your post, you reiterate a lot of points you have made before. The Abhidhamma position has been explained, but you discount it: you continue to use Dhamma terms (e.g., mindfulness, right effort, right concentration) in ways that are at odds with the Abhidhamma. Why is your way better? I think the onus is on you to show that there is inconsistency in the ancient Theravada texts. In the meantime, I will prepare some responses to the rest of your post: even if we have been over it all before (several times) it is Dhamma discussion and that is what we are here for. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 33651 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 026 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Still Cittas can be classified according to how many functions they can perform. In this kind of grouping, we need to know what are cittas in full sense as they have been numbered as 89 cittas or 121 cittas. Now 89 cittas or 121 cittas will be delineated to some details. Citta may be kusala/akusala or vipaka or kiriya. These terms have been explained in the previous threads. But as repeatition is better for deep understanding, they will be discussed here again. Kusala is wholesome. Akusala is unwholesome. A citta may be kusala or akusala if it is not vipaka or kiriya. ( Vipaka and kiriya will be explained in this thread.) When a citta is not vipaka or not kiriya, then it has to be kusala or akusala. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are cittas that have kamma-producing power and they are called kammapatha cittas. Kammapatha means 'kamma producing' or 'kamma generating'. Vipaka are resultant dhammas. Vipaka cittas are the resultant cittas derived from kamma that had been produced or generated when kusala or akusala actions were done. So basically kamma were generated in the past. In the past here means not now. So the past may be time in this life including today and in the past lives. Kiriya cittas are cittas that are not vipaka and not kusala or akusala cittas. They are actions without kamma-generation. They are ineffectual actions. They just do their jobs but they will not give rise to any kamma potentials for later life. With the exception of 2 cittas called pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta, all kiriya cittas arise in arahats. There are Kamavacara cittas, rupavacara cittas, arupavacara cittas and lokuttara cittas. Kamavacara cittas are cittas that frequently arise in kama bhumi or sensual sphere that is in 4 apaya bhumis of 1.niriya or hell, 2. tiracchanna or animal, 3. peta or hungry ghost, 4. asurakara or demon, 1 manussa bhumi or human realm, and 6 deva bhumis or deva realms. Altogether there are 4 apaya, 1 manussa, 6 deva so 11 kama bhumis or 11 realms that nearly always provide with kama senses or 5 senses and their related dhamma. Rupavacara cittas are cittas that frequently arise in rupa brahma bhumis and arupavacara cittas are cittas that frequently arise in arupa brahma bhumis. Lokuttara cittas are not related to lokiya that is not related to kama loka or 11 kama bhmuis, rupa loka or 16 rupa brahma bhumis, arupa loka or 4 arupa brahma bhumis. Lokuttara cittas are superior to all other cittas. Kamavacara cittas have 3 different kinds of cittas. They are 1. akuala/ or kusala cittas ( kama-generating cittas ) 2. vipaka cittas ( resultant cittas ) 3. kiriya cittas (non-kamma-generating cittas ) Rupavacara cittas also have 3 kinds of cittas. But there is no akusala kind. Rupavacara cittas may be rupa kusala or rupa vipaka or rupa kiriya. Arupavacara cittas also have 3 kinds of cittas. They are arupa kusala, arupa vipaka, arupa kiriya. There is no akusla kind in arupavacara cittas. Lokuttara cittas may be lokuttara kusala or lokuttara vipaka. There are only two kinds in lokuttara cittas. 4 cittas are kusala cittas and other 4 cittas are the resultant cittas of lokuttara kusala cittas and they are called phala cittas. These phala cittas are lokuttara vipaka cittas. So citta may be kammapatha citta that is akusala or kusala citta. Or it may be vipaka. Or it may be kiriya. Cittas have been classified according to jati or their origin and this classification can be viewed in the earlier threads. In the next post 89 cittas will be counted from 1 through 89th and will be explained while ongoing to 89th citta starts from 1st citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33652 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Birth as dukkha (was:Do or not do something) Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Ok, I take your words that you do not see the Sammohavinodani > passage quoted by Sarah as contradicting the first Noble Truth. > > If one doesn't see the contradiction, then one doesn't see it. > > It would be futile for one to help a blinded person to see a dot by > simply pointing to the dot. > > Metta, > Victor Here for comparison are: (a) some extracts of references to birth, old age and death in the first Noble Truth, from the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta (D 22), (b) extracts from the passages in the Sammohavinodani (Sv) explaining the reference to birth etc as "not itself suffering,... [but] being the basis for the arising of suffering". The full text of each passage is copied at the end of this message. BIRTH D 22: And what is birth ? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. Sv 456: [Birth is the basis for the arising of what suffering?] The suffering of the states of woe ... and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss [and] in the human world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the human world - it is the basis for all that. AGING/OLD AGE D 22: And what is aging ? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Sv 473: [Old age is the basis for what suffering?] For both bodily suffering and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering. DEATH D 22: And what is death ? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. Sv 480: [Death is the basis for what suffering?] The feelings belonging to the physical body which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc, great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering. If you see any particular contradiction here, perhaps you could point it out. Jon MAHA-SATIPATTHANA SUTTA, DN 22 "And what is birth ? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. "And what is aging ? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. "And what is death ? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html SAMMOHAVINODANI 456 “Now ‘meaning of suffering in birth should be understood’...: for this birth is not itself suffering. But by being the basis for the arising of suffering it is called suffering. But of what suffering is it the basis? The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff), and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss [and] in the human world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the human world - it is the basis for all that.” ... 473 “‘The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood’. But here this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being the basis for suffering. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.” ... 480 “‘The meaning of suffering of death should be understood’; but here this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being the basis for suffering. The feelings belonging to the physical body which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc, great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering.” 33653 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:26am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 3 Does break from DSG give more time for reflection? Next I asked Rob about his sabbatical from DSG. I was curious to know whether taking a break from Dhamma discussion, or having less of it at least (he tells me he is still active at another group, Triple Gem) would have given him benefits in terms of space/time to reflect. I?fve been feeling that while I am gathering so much wonderful guidance from friends at DSG, I am not taking time to process it, to re-read it, to reflect on it. Phil: There?fs a sutta here I found when I was reading about right view. ?gThere are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention.?h ( note- Middle Length Sayings no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) Those are the two conditions. Rob: The two main conditions. Basic conditions. Phil: Main conditions. And I realized that I?fve had wonderful opportunities to hear these utterances but I?fm not taking time to reflect. I?fm constantly gathering... Rob: But even while you?fre....there is reflection going on. Reflection doesn?ft have to be.. Phil: Repetitive? Rob: Well, it can be, but, you know, a little bit of reflection comes in, and comes in.Don?ft worry. You?fre doing well, Philip. Don?ft worry at all. (note to myself- I really like this ?gcomes in, and comes in..?hReminds me of what Thich Nhat Hahn said about the Dhamma falling like gentle rain, and gradually getting into the hard earth of our minds or something like that.) Phil: I?fm not worried at all, really. I really do feel quite relaxed about it all. Having a lot of fun, actually. (note to myself- if I wasn?ft worried, why did I ask?) But I wondered about your sabbatical. And I wanted to ask if stepping back from as much discussion as before whether you saw an impact on your practice or...not DSG in particular, but just the volume of discussion decreasing. Is there more time for reflection. Rob: It doesn?ft matter really. I mean, if you?fre not writing you can be reading, and if you?fre not reading you can be reflection. And if you?fre not reflecting there?fs nama and rupa happening now, you know. I mean, what?fs more important? Thinking a lot about Dhamma, or experiencing hardness, experiencing lobha, understanding?cI mean,you don?ft have to be contemplating it all the time, but there can be moments when they?fre... Once there?fs a strong basis in the theory, Dhamma is everywhere. Even when there?fs not Dhamma, there?fs still something occurring. Even when you go through periods when you?fre not even thinking about Dhamma much, and you?fre absorbed in worldly life, absorbed in lobha. It still gives you food, it still becomes grist for the mill. It?fs still food for understanding, you know. I mean, I?fm just relaxed about it now. I don?ft feel any pressure to do anything really. But I do believe you need to have taken a lot of time to have studied a lot. (end of pt 3) *** Does anyone else have thoughts on the potential value of taking occasional breaks from discussion when reflecting on suttas or other teachings? Of course I know it is a mistake to think that conditions such as silence and uncrowdedness must be in place before understanding can arise, and yet, thinking of the sutta above, I want to think more about this "wise attention." I think it is one of the four factors for enlightenment/awakening that Ken H and Rob E and others talked about in the thread about formal practice (was video games!) Was it yonisomething? What is that yonisomething and how rare is its arising? Metta, Phil 33654 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Victor) - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I see it, your reading is the exact opposite of the normal meaning of the English sentence. The normal understanding of "A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are," would not be "At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration," but, instead, would be more along the lines of "At a moment of right concentration (or following in the wake of such) is vipassana." It is not vipassana that is being given as causal condition, nor is simultaneity being stressed. What is being asserted is the role that concentration plays as a condition for wisdom. Moreover, it seem to me that this meaning is crystal clear, and I suspect that interpreting otherwise is a consequence of being uncomfortable with regard to concentration and any suggestion of the worth of its cultivation. But this last, of course, is just conjecture on my part. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would agree that what is being asserted is the role that concentration plays as a condition for wisdom. But 'A as a condition for B' covers a wide range of modes of conditioning, and we need to know for any given reference precisely what kind of conditioning role is being asserted. In my view it is not possible to give an answer to that question purely on a reading of the particular sentence quoted ("A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are"). However, there is nothing here that on the face of it suggests a *causative* role, as opposed to a more ancillary/supporting kind of role. Jon 33655 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Indeed. It seems to me that you see the problem now. > > Metta, > Victor I take it from this that you do indeed see the same kind of contradiction in the remark about the *five aggregates not on their own constituting dukkha* as in the Sammohavinodani remarks about *birth, old age and death each not itself suffering*. As regards the Sammohavinodani, I think you are on the wrong track. In a post sent to you a few minutes ago I set out the detailed explanation of birth, old age and death as part of the first Noble Truth from the Maha Satipatthana Sutta, showing for comparison the text of the Sammohavinodani passage. I do not see any contradiction between the two; in fact, I see the Sammohavinodani text as a helpful elaboration of the sutta text. As regards the statement "The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or stress", much depends on the context. As an explanation of the first Noble Truth, it can be seen as saying much the same thing as the passage from the Sammohavinodani. As an explanation of dukkha as one of the 3 characteristics inherent to all dhammas, however, the statement seems at odds with the idea of the five aggregates as being inherently impermanent (anicca), inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha), and inherently not-self (anatta). Jon 33656 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Mike (and Phil) --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon and Phil, ... > I came to the tentative conclusion some time ago that 'obtaining > results' > refers sometimes to nibbaana and sometimes to favorable rebirths, > depending > on the context. Not sure where I got this--wonder if the commentaries > have > anything to say. > > mike Thanks for the comments. Sounds quite plausible, but I haven't found confirmation yet. I've checked the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation but there's no relevant commentary. Let's hope the same reference occurs in another context where the meaning is clearer. Jon > > > > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with > > > > > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > > > > > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & > > > > > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even > > > > > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining > > > > > results. If they follow the holy life even when having > > > > > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. > > > > > If they follow the holy life even when both having > > > > > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable > > > > > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life > > > > > even when neither having made a wish nor having made > > > > > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is > > > > > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining > > > > > results. 33657 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:52am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 027 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas. The Tipitaka does not number these cittas as the first citta, the second citta, the third, the 4th ,...., the 87th, the 88th, and the 89th citta. But for the reason of easy reference for 'Dhamma Thread' these 89 cittas will be numbered. There are 54 kamavacara cittas, 15 rupavacara cittas, 12 arupavacara cittas and 8 lokuttara cittas. Again each has kusala ( also akusala in kamavaca cittas ), vipaka and kiriya kinds with the exception of lokuttara cittas. There cannot be lokuttara kiriya cittas because all lokuttara kusala cittas only arise once in the whole samsara. In lokiya cittas, kusala cittas arise as frequently as the conditions favour. But when there is no more defilements or kilesas, cittas in action are called kiriya cittas. As lokuttara kusala cittas just arise once, there will never be any lokuttara kiriya cittas. But there are lokuttara vipaka cittas. These cittas are phala cittas and they are the resultant cittas of corresponding lokuttara kusala cittas. There are 54 kamavacara cittas. Again these 54 cittas have two separate groups. They are 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness and 24 sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. All rupavacara cittas, all arupavacara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are sobhana cittas. Asobhana cittas only arise as kamavacara cittas. Asobhana cittas have 3 kinds of cittas that is 1.akusala, 2.vipaka, 3.kiriya and equally sobhana cittas have 3 kinds of cittas namely 1.kusala, 2.vipaka, 3.kiriya. After repeatedly explained, there terms will help a lot understanding of ongoing discussions on 'Dhamma Thread'. I think maintaining of originality of some Pali terms will help understanding of Dhamma much more effective than learning in translated words even though understanding is still possible. In 30 asobhana cittas, there are 3 kinds of cittas. They are akusala cittas, vipaka cittas, and kiriya cittas. In 30 asobhana cittas, only 12 akusala cittas have hetus as root condition and these 12 akusala cittas are sahetuka cittas or consciousness with roots. All other asobhana cittas that is 15 vipaka cittas and 3 kiriya cittas do not have any root and they are rootless consciousness and called ahetuka cittas. So there are 12 sahetuka akusala cittas ( no ahetuka akusala cittas ), 15 ahetuka vipaka cittas ( there are sahetuka vipaka cittas and they are sobhana cittas and will appear later ), and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33658 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > And you would need to know when to infer and what a correct inference > is. A right inference will bring out the meaning clearly. An > entangling and convoluting spin is, after all, entangling and > convoluting. > > Metta, > Victor I agree with these comments. But what are appropriate sources for drawing an inference if not other parts of the Tipitaka, and the commentaries? One example I mentioned in my post of a term whose meaning is to be known by inference, which you seem to agree with, is 'mindfulness of breathing' as used in the Anapanasati Sutta. I'd be interested to know what meaning you give to this term, as you are a strong proponent of the practice of mindfulness of breathing. Jon 33659 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 5:29am Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 04 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The right thought is the chief that is pushing the vehicle forward along the journey to nibbana. Without thought, there will not be any action and there will not be any movement along the way of journey to nibbana. Due to right view, right thoughts have to arise and this again push forward the vehicle. Now the journey has been started. The right thoughts lead to right actions. Whenever we consider to do something, we at least have to have a plan for that. That plan is thinking and as the right viewed has been set up, thoughts become the right ones. So the intended actions are thoroughly considered whether they should be done or not and as right thoughts develop, the arising thoughts lead to right actions. All the movements will be meaningful with right thought. For example, if someone has considered the act of killing is not right and he weighes it as bad thing. This right thought hinders him not to do killing. This avoidance derived from right thought is a kind of moral conduct or sila and actions not connected with killing become right actions. By the same token, when there is a circumstance that taking of things is iminent, right thought considers that whether taking those things is free of ill-will or free of the act of stealing. If the action would involve in stealing, the right thought hinders not to do that action of taking things. This avoidance derived from right thought is a kind of moral conduct or sila and actions not connected with stealing or anything related to stealing become right actions. In the same way, when there are right thoughts, misuse of senses or sensual things will not occur in actions at least. Having illegitimate sex is not of the output of right thoughts. When approaching the Path, even lawful sex is not a part of right actions as having sex is associated with a lot of attachment, craving, clinging and endless akusala cittas. Avoidance of apparently defilements-involved actions such as having sex derives from right thoughts. Taking intoxicants, recreational drugs, alcohol etc derives not from right thoughts and these do not add to building up of right things for the Path. Right thoughts lead to do right actions. As there are actions, we can say that there is movement along our journey. We have started the journey. As we have right view, our thoughts will become right thoughts. As we have developed right thoughts, our actions will become right actions. Up to now, we are developing or building up moral conduct which again derives from right thoughts. The moral conduct or sila that we have is just lokiya sila. Lokuttara sila only arise with lokuttara cittas. Anyway, we are heading to right actions and we have started the journey to nibbana. As a routine we have to get up from our bed daily. As soon as we wake up from our sleep, we are conscious to ourselves and our surroundings and thoughts. When there is right view, the thoughts will be right thoughts. These right thoughts will dictate all our actions through out the day and night until we go into deep sleep. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... 33660 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:39pm Subject: The right Way ! Friends: The Eye of the World: The supreme Way is 8-fold ! The supreme Truth is 4-fold ! The supreme State is Detachment. The supreme Being is the Seer ... This is this one Way, there is No Other for the purification of Seeing ... Following this Way, you will bewilder Mara, the Devil of all Temptation ... Entering this Way you will make an End to all Pain, Suffering & Despair ... This Path is Known & Shown to you For the removal of the Thorn of ill ... Effort have to be done by yourself ... Well-gone-Ones only point out the way! All who use this method of meditation are wholly freed of Mara's bondage ... Transient are all constructions ... When seeing that by Understanding, one is disgusted with what is ill. That is the way to Purification ... Painful are all constructions ... When seeing that by Understanding, one is disillusioned with what is ill. This is the way to Purification ... Self-less are all Phenomena ... When seeing that by Understanding, one is disenchanted with what is ill. Such is the way to Purification ... --ooOoo-- Source: The Right Way: Dhammapada 273-9: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/message/4212 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=900034 All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 33661 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 028 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful cittas. They are called asobhana cittas or non-beautiful cittas because they are akusala or they are cittas that do not have beautiful cetasikas like alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion and amoha or panna or pannindriya cetasika. Among 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness, 12 cittas are akusala cittas. Other 18 cittas are 15 vipaka cittas and 3 kiriya cittas. Among 12 akusala cittas, lobha cittas or consciousness with attachment are easily understandable even though they are hardly avoidable for most of us in this world, in this loka. There are 8 lobha mula cittas, 2 dosa mula cittas, and 2 moha mula cittas. Lobha is attachment. It is a cetasika and cetasikas will be discussed in due course. Mula means 'root'. So lobha mula cittas are cittas that are rooted by mainly lobha or attachment. Dosa is aversion, hatred and it is a cetasika and it will be explained later. 2 moha mula cittas are rooted by moha cetasika. Moha is ignorance, delusion, illusion and it is a cetasika and will be explained later. So in 12 akusala cittas, 8 are lobha cittas, 2 are dosa cittas, and 2 are moha cittas in short. All 89 cittas will be numbered in the discussions of 'Dhamma Thread'. The first 8 cittas will be on lobha cittas, then 2 dosa cittas will be followed and next will be 2 moha cittas. The first 1st citta of 89 cittas is, in its full name, ''somanassa sahagatam ditthi sampayuttam asankharika citta.'' This is its full name. This should be just a unit and it is a citta. But that citta has such and such characters and so it has such a name. Somanassa here is a Pali word. It comprises 'so' , 'mana' , and 'assa'. 'So' means good, fair, sound, pleasurable, desirable etc etc. 'Mana' means 'mind related'. 'Assa' means to show possession. Therefore, somanassa means simply 'mental pleasure' or 'pleasant mental feeling'. Saha means 'together' , 'along with' , 'concommittant'. 'Gata' means 'to go'. So 'sahagatam' means 'to go together with'. Somanassa sahagatam means 'to go together with pleasant mental feeling'. 'Ditthi' here means 'wrong view' that there is no kamma effect for any action etc etc. 'Sampayutta' means 'co-exist', 'co-arise' ,'in parallel with ', 'mixed with '. Therefore ditthi sampayuttam here means 'that lobha citta is mixed inseparably with ditthi cetasika which has a wrong view. 'Asankharika' means 'without any prompt', 'without any influence' , 'without any inducement' , 'without any stimulation'. So the 1st citta of 89 cittas has many implications and we will need to consider it in connection with our daily life activities so that we can understand what that lobha citta is and what are its implications. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33662 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:= > Hi Rob M, > I shall now quote Tiika Vis and my comments: > The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > > > 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the > > (material) support for the mind-element and for the > > mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. > N: to observe: the Pali has: aadhaarana: the meaning is: being a containe= r, > foundation, support, holding up. In the five khandha planes where there a= re > nama and rupa, cittas need a physical base, foundation. They do not arise= > independently of the body. The five sense-cognitions have the sense bases= as > physical support, and all the other cittas, namely, mind-element and the > mind-consciousness-element (see explanation in the other post) have as > support what is called the heartbase, an infinitely tiny rupa arising and= > falling away. Hi Nina and Rob, would you please give me some hint on why do mind-consciousness-element (mano) has to have physical base_foundation and can not be based in other five_consciousness_elements? > Text: It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in > dependence on > > the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of > > the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart. > N: let us first look at the footnote : > text: Vism. VIII, 111. This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the > colour > > of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a > > lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is > > smooth outside, and inside it is like the interior of a kosataki (loofa= h > > gourd). In those who possess understanding it is a little expanded; in > > those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is = a > > hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of > > blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and > > mind-consciousness element occur. > N: We have to go back in time centuries and centuries. What was the > intention of the commentators? If Acariya Buddhaghosa was a commentator, which exactly texts was he commenting on here? >To see the heartbase as not worth clinging > to, not beautiful. It is only the tiniest element performing a function. = The > last sentence is the core: mind-consciousness element occur.> The reality of that base is expressed = by > means of conventional terms to help people at that time to understand it > correctly. We should not reject the terms used here, but consider what is= > really essential. Blood, inside the heart: we have to understand the rupa= > dhamma these words stand for. That is what really matters. I can't see this heartbase, thats the problem you see.. and I don't know an= ybody who does and could point it to me. I see no reason to have an opinion on him or his comments. I just need to k= now what he was commenting on, or what he was translating to see if there is any sen= se to spend time dwelling on it one longer. > The purpose was not an anatomical lesson. I realy see no problem here. > I also made a general remark: > I quote from the Co to the Yamaka (Abhidhamma): > taught particular dhammas at a particular place depending on the beings = he > should guide so that they would attain enlightenment. > > Good to remember when one believes that there are inconsistencies. > Heartbase is a subtle rupa only to be known through the mind-door. It is > infinitesimally tiny. > It can perform the function of base for cittas and then it falls away > immediately. Kamma produces it throughout life, even at each of the three= > submoments of citta (of arising, presence and falling away). Budhaghosa k= new > all this, but he used figurative language to explain. > Actually it is in the same way as he explained the eye: as tiny as a > lousehead: > < There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like > a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with > dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be > found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the > white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where > there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. > It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of > cotton.> > I think it is great! Again not an anatomical lesson. It helps people not = to > cling to the eye. I understend it this way: An Eye is a concept the same way khandas are. An eye sense is rather easy to spot it is placed in the eyeball as a sensitive nervous cell. It's flesh= y and has all the four basic rupas to it. Visible rupa hits it, it register hit and c= ontact is established triggering an avalanche of mental effects. The heart base plainly do not exist or nobody can point it to me. If does then my understanding of rupa has to change to include some kind o= f new entity - an invisible one I guess. And there are further problems with it, but lets not go there as yet. > Nina. > Another remark by U. Narada: > U. Narada, p. 175: > specified as Oheart-base1 by the Commentators when this is not mentioned > anywhere in the Pali canon? > Answer: It is clear to many that eye-consciousness, etc. are dependent an= d > based on eye-base, etc. But in the case of the material base in question,= > Oheart1 is prefixed to it so that there will be no doubt as to which base= is > meant. For mind-element and mind-consciousness element are dependent on t= he > material base which is situated within the heart and is, therefore, calle= d > Oheart-base1. Thus Obase1 and Oheart-base1 are one and the same. > > _____ Is U. Narada giving any hint on why he think so? > Nina. > > op 05-06-2004 06:14 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > In summary, my position is: > > - The author of the Patthana got it right > > - An unnamed commentator applied the prevalent cardio-centric model > > of the mind and identified the heart as the physical base for the > > mind element and mind consciousness > > - Buddhaghosa included this incorrect concept of heart in his > > Visuddhimagga is this unnamed commentator ( I still have no idea what he was commenting o= n) text available to read? Can this be untangled and put simply as a list: 1 Sutta ... 2 Abidhamma... 3. Comment to Sutta by... 4. Comment to Sutta by... 5. Comment to Comment to Sutta by.... Meta, Agrios 33663 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" [...] > > The heart base plainly do not exist or nobody can point it to me. > If does then my understanding of rupa has to change to include some kind o= > f > new entity - an invisible one I guess. I meant untraceable in the sense that one can think about it, but in no way experience this kind of rupa. That would help me to understand existence of all external rupas. metta, Agrios. 33664 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Larry --- Larry wrote: > Jon: "The arahant who has not yet attained parinibbana has > transcended certain aspects of 'dukkha as Truth', but 'dukkha as a > characteristic of conditioned dhammas' is not susceptible to being > transcended, except upon attaining parinibbana." > > Hi Jon, > > I agree. I wonder if we could say dukkha as truth means "painful" > because of being bound-up with desire, and dukkha as characteristic > means "undesirable" because of being linked with impermanence. > Perhaps we could say dukkha as truth is a reality with a cause, while > dukkha as characteristic is a "characteristic" concept without a > cause as such. I think you are also right to suggest the goal is to > transcend both dukkhas. Do you know of any commentary or scripture > that supports two readings of dukkha? > > Larry No, I don't know of any support for 2 readings of dukkha. Do you think 'unsatisfactory' is a reading that could suit both contexts? Jon 33665 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Phil --- Philip wrote: > ... > Now, I've done so much reading in various religions > before "settling" on the Buddha's teaching, that I can't remember if > I read this in a book by a Christian mystic (Meister Eckhardt?) or in > new -agey stuff like Seat of the Soul or whether it was the Buddha's > teaching, but is there anything about the value of intentions in > themselves, irregardless of whether the intention is carried through? ... > For example, when I told Nina that I intended to send a donation to > the Dhamma Foundation to thank her for her books, but didn't, was the > intention itself kusala even though it wasn't followed through? That > is just one example.... > Was the intention I felt quite clearly the other day, an intention > that just kind of arose, of a kusala nature in itself? If "deeds are > essentially the manifestation of their accompanying intention", but > the deed is some months down the road, can it be said there was > wholesome khamma with the intention? An intention to do kusala can itself be kusala. That is to say, the possibility of such an intention itself being kusala cannot be ruled out. Not all kusala moments manifest as an action through body or speech. As to a particular instance, it's impossible to say, and probably best not to even wonder about ;-)) For most of us, intentions are mixed at the best of times, so it's a safe bet there would have been both kusala and akusala mind-states arising, alternately. > I'm not wanting to use this as a > way of having wholesome khamma by intending things intentionally - > but if an seemingly wholesome intention arises on its own, clearly, > explicitly, in an unexpected way...can I understand it as kusala? Any presently arising dhamma, be it kusala mind-state, akusala mind-state, a mental factor such as feeling, or a rupa such as visible-object, can be the object of awareness. Awareness of a presently arising dhamma is the most precious form of kusala there is. Jon 33666 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see dukkha of dhammas as a relational matter - specifically their being unsatisfactory, or, better, unsatisfying. They are dukkha in that 1) they are not a source of true satisfaction, and 2) clinging to them is a source of distress. Thus, all conditioned dhammas fail to satisfy and they also are conditions (but not sufficient conditions) for the arising of distress. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your observations about dukkha of dhammas as a relational matter. Of course, it can be seen that way, but is that the only way it was expounded by the Buddha? I'm not sure that it was. You explain that dhammas are dukkha in two senses. 1. 'Dhammas are not a true source of satisfaction.' This of course is true, but as a reflection of what is said in the suttas I think it would be more correct to say, 'Dhammas are not capable of being a true source of satisfaction'. In this form, it is the explanation of dukkha as 1 of the 3 characteristics (lakkhana) of dhammas, as given in the suttas. 2. 'Clinging to dhammas is a source of distress.' Again, I would agree, but I think this is a statement about clinging, rather than about dhammas. As explained by the Buddha, clinging to anything (not just to dhammas) is a source of distress. The second Noble Truth is the truth of *clinging* (not, of *clinging to dhammas*); the first Noble Truth is dukkha, and this we are told is dhammas/the five aggregates. Jon 33667 From: Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/6/04 7:31:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Ken (and Victor) - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > As I see it, your reading is the exact opposite of the normal > meaning of the English sentence. The normal understanding of "A bhikkhu > who is concentrated understands things as they really are," would not be > "At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration," but, instead, > would be more along the lines of "At a moment of right concentration (or > following in the wake of such) is vipassana." It is not vipassana that is > being given as causal condition, nor is simultaneity being stressed. What > is being asserted is the role that concentration plays as a condition for > wisdom. Moreover, it seem to me that this meaning is crystal clear, and I > suspect that interpreting otherwise is a consequence of being > uncomfortable with regard to concentration and any suggestion of the worth > of its cultivation. But this last, of course, is just conjecture on my > part. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > I would agree that what is being asserted is the role that concentration > plays as a condition for wisdom. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Then we agree on this issue, for this is all that I am maintaining here. ------------------------------------------------ But 'A as a condition for B' covers a> > wide range of modes of conditioning, and we need to know for any given > reference precisely what kind of conditioning role is being asserted. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. ---------------------------------------------- > > In my view it is not possible to give an answer to that question purely on > a reading of the particular sentence quoted ("A bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands things as they really are"). However, there is > nothing here that on the face of it suggests a *causative* role, as > opposed to a more ancillary/supporting kind of role. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, no single (paramatthic) condition, including concentration, constitutes a cause. But there are so many suttas that emphasize the important causal role (as a factor among several), that it strikes me as odd how folks seems to be afraid of it. Concentration and intention appear to be two important phenomena that "scare the bejesus" out of some of the folks here. (Hmm, perhaps that is good for Buddhists? Should I add something about Moses and Mohammad just to keep things fair? ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33668 From: Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi, Agrios, Nina, and Rob - In a message dated 6/6/04 9:13:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > Hi Nina and Rob, > > would you please give me some hint on why do mind-consciousness-element > (mano) has to have physical base_foundation and can not be based in other > five_consciousness_elements? > ====================== A different but related question is why any physical base is required at all from the Abhidhammic perspective. Doesn't Abhidhamma take bhavanga citta to be the mind door? Also, aren't there supposedly realms of (fully) disembodied beings who still function mentally. (Please excuse the "beings" terminology. Not to use it would make one's speech too convoluted.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33669 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 8:43am Subject: Thanks Dear RobM and Nina, Thanks for the reply and comments. Rob, sorry for the mistake that I make in the question 3. I have mixed up the manodhatu and the base. Receiving Consciousness is manodhatu and is different with the Investigating Consciousness. I have misread and understand it as different in their base. Sorry for the word "inspecting" too, it should be "investigating". By the way, may I know when will be the abhidhamma classes start in Nalanda Buddhist Society in Taman Sri Serdang? Starting from the first Saturday of July? What is the time then? You might have additional 4 students from Kajang then. :) There are some questions that are not with me at the moment. I will try to collect them and put them on as soon as possible. All the reply answers will be shared with my feloow friends. I am sure they will feel really great about it. With metta, Lee 33670 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 9:33am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The first citta of 89 cittas is called 'somanassa sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta'. Functionwise, this lobha mula citta or simply lobha citta does the job of javana or mental impulse. Javana means 'swift' 'quick' 'fast' 'rapid'. Javana cittas or consciousness in mental impulse arise one after another successively in a swift manner. Lobha cittas are cittas that arise most of the time. People are filled with moha cittas nearly all the time with a few exception. As moha cittas are heard to see, let us see dosa cittas and lobha cittas. Dosa cittas can easily be recognised in our own mind. So do lobha cittas. We are most of the time in lobha cittas or otherwise in dosa cittas if we are not specifically practising dhamma in some way. The first lobha citta is associated with joy or piti. Citta likes the object very much with joy. So the first lobha citta is associated with somanassa or pleasant mental feeling. In our daily life, when we are heavily attached to something and we feel happy then we are in lobha cittas associated with joy or piti and this is called samanassa as explained in the previous post. This first lobha citta is associated with ditthi or wrong view. This can happen in all ordinary people or beings. If someone does not believe kamma and its implication then that lobha citta is said to be associated with ditthi cetasika. Asankharika shows no need to be prompted. There are many examples in our daily life for this very first lobha citta of 89 total cittas. When a young child is having a sweet food, he or she feels happy eating that food. He is happy eating that food, so there is somanassa. He will not know kamma and its implication and there will be ditthi associated with that citta. He eats himself and he likes it on his own and no one is stimulating him 'baby you like it'. The whole action arises without any outside stimulation or prompting or influence. This citta can arise not only in babies but in all other beings of different maturity when there is ditthi or wrong view and there is somanassa or joy then that attachment or lobha citta is the first lobha citta. There is an exact lay out of how lobha citta arises in a vithi vara series of citta. Vithi means 'serial'. Vara means 'the turn' and this will be discussed in the coming posts. The first citta of 89 citta is somanassa sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta. As soon as this citta arises, there arises associated cetana cetasika. When both lobha citta and cetana cetasika in that citta has disappeared, the potential or kamma does not disappear. Instead it stays dormant for a long time transferred to next successive cittas that arise one after another and this happen till cuti citta of arahats. This first lobha citta if it has arisen, the possible kamma are kamma of patisandhi cittas and kamma of pavatti cittas. Patisandhi is made up of 'pati' and 'sandhi'. Pati means 'again' and sandhi means 'to link' Patisandhi means 'to link again'. Pavatti means 'in life'. As soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma. That kamma may give rise to patisandhi cittas. If this happens, this patisandhi will be duggati patisandhi. Duggati means 'bad realms'. That is upekkha sahagatam akusala santirana citta will serve as patisandhi citta. This patisandhi citta is the result of past kamma while lobha citta had arisen. At pavatti or when in life that is after patisandhi, the kamma that arisen from lobha mula citta gives rise to ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas. They will be explained in the coming threads. Some of ahetuka akusala cittas are seeing of bad things, hearing of bad things, smelling of bad things, tasting of bad things, touching of bad things. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33671 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] fetters, jealousy. Hi Sarah and Howard, op 01-06-2004 13:22 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Inasmuch as the commentaries are not Buddha word, and inasmuch as I > don't have full certainty that the Abhidhamma Pitaka isn't a later, synoptic, > systematic codification of the Buddhadhamma, when I come across something that > seems to go beyond what is in the suttas, and not just in explanatory detail > but in the items included, I am inclined to seek sutta sources for it or to > seek > an explanation of the reasoning that led to it. N: I understand. If possible I also look for suttas, in order to demonstrate the unity of the Tipitaka. I looked in my Pali dict PED for more references. In different locations there are different ways of classifying the fetters. Classifications are not rigid, they can be different for stressing different aspects. They are also classified as eight. The Teacher used endless methods (naya, pariyaaya) for the sake of those capable of being led to enlightenment (bhuddha veneyya). I do not see such differences as contradictions. The fetters are classified as five lower fetters and five higher fetters in the Vibhanga Ch 17, §940, and also in the Suttas. In another classification (as mentioned in Dhsg and in the Vibhanga Ch 17, § 969) they include envy and stinginess. Sarah: Quotes:Vatthupana Sutta, MN7 (The Simile of the Cloth) and commentary notes as provided by Nyanaponika in a wheel publication. Interesting details. The sixteen defilements are not exactly the ten fetters. There is something confusing in the transl of: 7. issa, envy 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness N: macchariya means avarice or stinginess, not envy or jealousy, which stand for the Pali issa. Indeed, we need the commentary here for the understanding of the details. In the suttas the sotapanna is sometimes designated by different wordings: who has unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem and lives openhanded, without stinginess (thus, he has eradicated stinginess or avarice), who has crossed over doubt without someone else's help, who has the pure Dhamma eye. But the last one is also used for those who have attained higher stages of enlightenment. Nina. 33672 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 11:40am Subject: FW: Sutta translation from Pali. FW from the Pali yahoo list: Dear friends, here is my translation. I follow the triple lineair method. Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, § 2, ³On hearing Dhamma²). > (21) 1. Kimbilavaggo, 2. Dhammassavanasutta.m > 202. Assuta.m su.naati suta.m pariyodaapeti, ka'nkha.m vitarati /not heard/he hears/heard/he purifies/ /doubt/ he dispels/ He hears what he had not heard before, he purifies what he had heard, he dispels doubt, di.t.thi.m uju.m karoti, cittamassa pasiidati. /view/ straight/he makes/ the mind of him/becomes calm he straightens his view, and his mind becomes calm. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pa~nca aanisa.msaa dhammassavane>ti. /these indeed/monks/five/ benefits/ in hearing Dhamma Monks, these are truly the five benefits in listening to the Dhamma. Remarks: The practice of the Dhamma begins with listening. Assuta.m su.naati: he hears what he did not hear before. The Buddha's teaching is completely different from all other teachings. The Buddha taught anattaa, non-self. suta.m pariyodaapeti: he purifies what he had heard. One may not fully understand what one heard before. The Dhamma is subtle and deep, one has to listen and consider it again and again. ka"nkha.m vitarati:he dispels doubt. He may have doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, about the way leading to the end of defilements. By the development of the eightfold Path his understanding grows. He becomes more assured that this is the only way. Doubt will be completely eradicated at the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotaapanna. di.t.thi.m uju.m karoti, he straightens his view. Di.t.thuju kamma, the straightening of one's view is one of the ten kusala kamma pattha. This can go together with all kinds of kusala. For example, when we develop metta, we are bound to take selfish affection for metta. We are bound to take akusala for kusala when there is no panna that knows their different characteristics. Or one may take the wrong Path for the right Path. One may not know that the objects of sati and pa~n~naa are whatever naama or ruupa appears through one of the six doorways, through the five sense-doors and the mind-door. Cittamassa pasiidati, his mind becomes calm. Passaddhi is the cetasika that is calm, and it arises with each kusala citta. When the citta is kusala, one is at that moment free from akusala, not disturbed by akusala, and this is calm. Listening to the Dhamma and considering it is bhaavanaa, mental development. It is kusala kamma accompanied by pa~n~naa and by calm. There are many degrees of calm. Listening to the Dhamma and the practice in accordance with the Dhamma can lead to the highest calm: the eradication of all defilements. Nina. 33673 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 11:40am Subject: Brahma viharas, no 2 Brahma viharas, no 2 We read in the ³Atthasåliní ² about the four brahmavihåras ((Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) : ³...love (mettå) has the characteristic of being a procedure of modes of beneficence; the function or property of bringing good; the manifestation or effect of taking hatred away; the proximate cause of seeing the lovableness of beings. Its consummation (success) is the quieting of ill-will; its failure is the production of lust.² N: Lust is the translation of lobha, but we should remember that all shades of lobha are a failure or near ennemy of metta. A. Sujin: ³We should remember that kusala and akusala can be very close in appearance. Therefore, we should often realize the characteristics of realities so that we shall know whether we develop kusala or whether akusala arises.² Htoo writes: A. Sujin (in Perfections): N: The Brahmaviharas of loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity are cetasikas, non-self. They cannot be manipulated at will, they arise because of their appropriate conditions. Metta cannot stay, it falls away and then there are bound to be akusala cittas since we have accumulated such an amount of akusala. Pañña, understanding that knows the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala is a condition for the arising of the Brahma-viharas. In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity, tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very necessary for all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, namely, attachment and aversion. She says that if there is no metta, there is an opportunity for akusala. Therefore, we should develop metta, just now. She said that if there is not metta very often, we should not be worried about it. It can be developed little by little so that it can be accumulated. If we say that we cannot do this, defilements will not be eliminated. **** Nina 33674 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 3:48pm Subject: Re: Brahmaviharas, no 1 Hello Nina, and all What a nice treat to find Nina on the Brahma-viharas. There is lobha when I see such a subject mentionned, yes, but it is lobha that will draw me deeper into Dhamma, and eventually be eradicated by right understanding. > N: I shall quote from the tape which is a lecture on the Brahmaviharas given by > A. Sujin to police officers. They took a great interest in the practice of > the Brahma-viharas while performing their duty as police officer. Ph: Rob K told me that many of K Sujin's students are governement officials. I can't help but feel encouraged by the thought that there is a country somewhere where the Buddha's teaching has an impact on administrative matters! I remember in the chapter on the perfection of loving-kindness in Nina's book on the perfections there is an anecdote about a kind official from the Thai Embassy in India(?) who was willing to come in when the embassy was closed to help a traveller in Nina's group who was having visa trouble (a lost passport.) How kind he was, how these gestures of kidness from strangers in our lives can be so important. Cultivating the Brahma- Viharas makes it more likely that kindness and consideration will arise in ourselves as well. Now I understand, though, that it must start with at least an intellectual understanding of annata. Otherwise, there is the idea of a self that is being kind - such a wonderful person I am! > N: we should be truthful as to our cittas: is the citta kusala citta or > akusala citta? Do we take for kusala citta what is in reality akusala citta? Ph: I have noticed an interesting thing about metta. It rises on its own and takes over in situations when one is irritable. For me, in the classroom, when I have English conversation students who give rise to aversion in me for some reason - usually because the aversion is already there for other reasons. It is a 40 minute class, and quite often for the first 20 minutes or so there is irritation. But there is inevitably kindness arising by the end of the class, or half- way through. It seems to me that metta takes over from dosa - almost always. I never have classes that end on an irritated note. Now, is there any chance that I am taking for kusala what is in reality akusala here? That my self-image can't stand to have a bad class, so it is self that is struggling to create a pleasant atmosphere for myself and others? Possibly. Not deeply concerned that that is the case, but interesting to think about. I will alwys look hard at what I think to be kusala. At another general Buddhist forum, this has gotten me labelled as being too hard on myself, too serious. Take it easy, I am told. Why should I "take it easy" when I am having so much fun starting to investigate these matters! :) > N: We need determination for all kinds of kusala. When panna sees the benefit > of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala this will condition the arising of > kusala citta. Ph: I am learning how much courage and energy of right effort it takes to stay with akusala and look at it instead of leaping away towards self-generated pseudo kusala. I like Azita's sign off message every time I see it: Is it "courage, patience and good cheer." (If I recall correctly. N:> A. Sujin stressed the connection between sila and metta. Sila includes not > only abstention from akusala kamma, it also includes paying respect to those > who deserve it and helping others, rendering service. Ph: I am very fond of Dag Hammerskjold, Secretary Genreal of the United Nations in the early 60s who was privately a deeply spiritual man, a true Christian. He wrote " Are you satisfied because you have curbed and canalized the worst in you? You cannot be saved by a "thou shalt not, only by a thou shall." N:> The near enemy of metta is attachment. We may take for metta what is > selfish love. If someone sees another person as object of attachment he has > no respect for that person, he does not help him to have kusala citta. He > harms himself and the other person. He also lacks respect of the Buddha who > taught the way leading to the elimination of akusala and the development of > right understanding. Ph: Do you mean "if someone doesn't see that the other person is an object of attachment?" Aren't we usually blinded to our lobha? Again, I am getting picky with language. In any case, this is a radically interesting idea. That attachment to others shows a lack of respect for them, and for the Buddha. Only by seeing through to annata can we truly respect the other person. There is something paradoxical about this, but very interesting. And lack of respect for the Buddha. I have never thought about this but I suspect it is one of the ideas that will always be coming up because of having read this post. Any time I lose faith or the energy and allow myself to wallow in self-pity or other forms of blatant akusala, knowingly, it is disrespect to the Buddha. Not to beat oneself up about it, but it is disrespect. >N: The connection between sila and metta as explained by A. Sujin I find an > inspiring way of considering abstention from akusala in action, speech and > thoughts. When there is metta there are no conditions for akusala through > body, speech and mind. We shall not hurt or harm others through actions or > speech, we shall abstain from akusala kamma. We consider other people as > true friends and that means that we shall help them to be free from what is > harmful and dangerous. We shall help them to have kusala citta. Ph: How wonderful to start the day by reading this. It is the rainy season now, and rainy days follow one another, and there is the chance that I will get gloomy as I have in the past. (Seasonal Affective Disorder from lack of solar stimulation - not as pronounced since finding The Dhamma two years ago) But can we *really* help people to have kusala cittas? We can help them to feel calm, and a bit bright from laughing - there are endorphins when we laugh. Maybe we can discourage them temporarily from indulging in gross akusala. But then their conditions overtake whatever benefit we have given them, and akusala cittas will take over again. Isn't that a realistic picture? That we can only truly and deeply help people by sharing the Dhammma with them? Sorry to end on what sounds like a pessimistic note. Thanks for these posts on Brahma-Viharas, Nina. I am looking forward to more! Metta, Phil 33675 From: Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:21pm Subject: Vism.XIV 81 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 81. Among the remaining aggregates, however, whatever has the characteristic of being felt(34) should be understood, all taken together, as the feeling aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of perceiving, all taken together, as the perception aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of forming, all taken together, as the formations aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of cognizing, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate. Herein, since the rest are easy to understand when the consciousness aggregate has been understood, we shall therefore begin with the commentary on the consciousness aggregate. ----------------------- note 34. ' "Has the characteristic of being felt" means that it has as its characteristic what is felt, what is experienced as the "taste (stimulus)" of the object. "Characteristic of perceiving" means that it has as its characteristic the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc., and the knowing, the apprehending of it by arousing the perception of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so on. Forming (abhisa.nkhara.na) is accumulating, or it is contriving by becoming interested. And it is because volition is basic in both of these ways that the formations aggregate is said thus to have the 'characteristic of forming'. For in expounding the formations aggregate in the Suttanta-Bhaajaniya of the Vibha.nga, volition was expounded by the Blessed One thus, "Eye-contact-born volition" (Vbh. 8) and so on. "Has the characteristic of cognizing" means that it has as its characteristic that kind of knowing called apprehension of an object in a mode in which the objective field is apprehended differently from the mode of perceiving' (Pm.462). 33676 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:43pm Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 4 Some deny value of Abhidhamma in this lifetime Ph: I think you said you came across Abhidhamma in Daily Life in Sri Lanka around ?f79? Rob: ?f89. I had actually had a look at it before in a library and was impressed with it but I couldn?ft get a copy until ?f89. Phil: And when you found it... Rob: Oh I must have read it...well, I have said 10 times, but I know more than 20 or so. Phil: But you had been advised not to study it by some. (note- meaning the Abhidhamma, not ADL) Rob: Yeah, I remember asking at a retreat I was on, asking a well know monk, you know, I put my hand up and asked him about studying Abhidhamma. And he said ?gleave that for another life.?h Phil: Did he say why? Rob: Not necessary, just practice. He?fs not the only one who said that. A very bad thing to say, actually. Lucky I didn?ft listen to him! Very akusala to say such a thing, to put someone on the wrong path. But why did he say that? Because of not understanding. He thinks he?fs helping, but it?fs like the Mormons knock on my door and want to talk to me. They think they?fre doing such a good thing, to introduce me to Jesus. The fact that it?fs all wrong view, they don't know. But the khammic result is still the same. And the result it has on other people. Phil: I wonder if he...I always think of the parable of the poisoned arrow. I know some people seem to have the idea that Abdhidhamma is... metaphysical? Rob: Theoretical or something. Phil: So I guess he thought what you need to work on is suffering here and now and that the Abhidhamma wouldn?ft help you with that. Rob: I mean, that same (inaudible) if you ask them a question about annata, they would also say, ?gpractice! That?fs too hard to think about. Once you practice you?fll understand it all.?h Phil: And for them, practice would be? Rob: Concentrating on the breath. If you concentrate on the breath it will all become apparent. I mean, you can get quite sad think about the decline of Buddhism when you see how much wrong view there is in the world about Buddhism now. On the other hand, it was predicted by the Buddha, so you know it?fs inevitable. The fact that it?fs happening just shows the Buddha?fs wisdom in predicting it. No one can stop the decline,but you help a little by discussing like this, helping other people to see. (end of pt.4) 33677 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 5:05pm Subject: Dichotomies aplenty! Hi folks Firstly, thanks to Howard and Larry and TG for assisting me on the Panna translation point (more on that later in this post). Last century, an American religion scholar called Melford Spiro went to Burma to study the Buddhist religion. He wrote a book about it entitled "Buddhism and Society: A Great Tradition and its Burmese Vicissitudes". Great title, don't you think? Anyway, he formed the view that Buddhism in Burma was really TWO religions - one he called "kammatic buddhism" (essentially merit-making to have a happy rebirth) and the other "nibbanic buddhism" (the way of the "world- renouncing monk" seeking release from rebirth). Most Burmese and a great many monks were followers of kammatic buddhism, he said. Indeed, some monks apparently told him that Nibbana was one of the heavens! In a diagram he drew of these 2 religions, Spiro represented them as parallel lines - suggesting that it didn't matter where on the kammatic line you were (heaven or hell) you were always the same distance from Nibbana. [cf the kammatic buddhists who were placing Nibbana as the top heaven so, to get there, you had to keep going "up"]. This dichotomy got me thinking about the place of merit-making. And there are other dichotomies in play, too. The 2 "sacca" - conventional and ultimate. Picture me also, if you will, at a Cooran Dhamma Discussion weekend sandwiched between Ken H and Azita neither of whom like to stray outside the ultimate realities of the present moment. Ouch! (-: And then Ken H starts talking about the "ordinary" pre-Buddhistic aspects and the unique teachings of the Buddha. Another dichotomy. So, to the point. Where's the connection between conventional and ultimate, between ordinary and unique, between sila/merit and release? I would like to quote Bhikkhu Bodhi from The Wheel 259/260: " ... The accumulation of a 'stock of merit' is a primary requisite for acquiring all the fruits of the Buddhist religious life, from a pleasant abiding here and now to a favourable rebirth in the life to come, from the initial stages of meditative progress to the realization of the states of sanctity that come as the fruits of entering upon the Noble Path. The highest fruition of merit is identical with the culmination of the Buddhist holy life itself - that is, emancipation from the shackles of samsaric existence and the realization of nibbana, the unconditioned state beyond the insubstantial phenomena of the world. The mere piling up of merit, to be sure, is not in itself sufficient to guarantee the attainment of this goal. Merit is only one requisite, and must be balanced by its counterpart to secure the break-through from bondage to final freedom. The counterpart of merit is KNOWLEDGE (nana), the direct confrontation with the basic truths of existence through the eye of INTUITIVE WISDOM. [my upper case, Howard, Larry & TG] Merit and knowledge together constitute the two sets of equipment the spiritual aspirant requires in the quest for deliverance, the equipment of merit (punnasambhara) and the equipment of knowledge (nanasambhara) respectively. Each set of equipment has its own contribution to make to the fulfilment of the spiritual life. The equipment of merit facilitates progress in the course of samsaric wandering: it brings a favourable rebirth, the encounter with good friends to guide one's footsteps along the path, the meeting with opportunities for spiritual growth, the flowering of the lofty qualities of character, and the maturation of the spiritual faculties required for higher attainments. The equipment of knowledge brings the factor directly necessary for cutting the bonds of samsaric existence: the penetration of truth, enlightenment, the undistorted comprehension of the nature of actuality. Either set of equipment, functioning in isolation, is insufficient to the attainment of the goal; either pursued alone leads to a deviant, one-sided development that departs from the straight path to deliverance taught by Buddha. Merit without knowledge produces pleasant fruit and a blissful rebirth, but cannot issue in the transcendence of the mundane order and entrance upon the supramundane path. And knowledge without the factors of merit deteriorates into dry intellectualism, mere erudition, or scholasticism, impotent when confronted with the task of grasping a truth outside the pale of intellection. When each set of equipment complements the other, polishes the other, and perfects the other, then they undergo a graduated course of mutual purification culminating at the crest in the twin endowments of the emancipated saint - in that clear knowledge (vijja) and flawless conduct (carana) which make him, in the words of the Buddha, 'supreme among gods and men' ..." I know this quotation doesn't solve any debate like the descriptive/prescriptive one. But for me, it helps to tie together the dichotomy by showing that merit-making, although mostly tainted by avijja, can still condition the continuum towards the Factors for Enlightenment. Or am I wrong on that? Best wishes Andrew 33678 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Re: Dichotomies aplenty! Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Last century, an American religion scholar called Melford Spiro went > to Burma to study the Buddhist religion. He wrote a book about it > entitled "Buddhism and Society: A Great Tradition and its Burmese > Vicissitudes". Great title, don't you think? Anyway, he formed the > view that Buddhism in Burma was really TWO religions - one he > called "kammatic buddhism" (essentially merit-making to have a happy > rebirth) and the other "nibbanic buddhism" (the way of the "world- > renouncing monk" seeking release from rebirth). I want to make one small point here before retreating (I am behind on a couple of other threads). In the Culamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63) and again in the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31), the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching: "Why have I left [answers to speculative questions] undeclared? Because it is unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the origin of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared it." In brief, I am not sure that there is a dichotomy. Metta, Rob M :-) 33679 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:47pm Subject: Re: Thanks Hi Lee, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > By the way, may I know when will be the abhidhamma classes start in > Nalanda Buddhist Society in Taman Sri Serdang? Starting from the first > Saturday of July? What is the time then? You might have additional 4 > students from Kajang then. :) > First class is July 3rd 15:00 - 17:00 (though I would not be surprised if it runs over). Please contact me on my email address (rob.moult@j...) if you need a map or directions to Nalanda. Metta, Rob M :-) 33680 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 7:29pm Subject: Re: Dichotomies aplenty! Hi Rob M --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [snip] > In brief, I am not sure that there is a dichotomy. Exactly! That's the point I am clumsily making. When I was introduced to Buddhism, there was a heavy focus on the conventional and merit side of things. Now the pendulum has swung and there is a focus on glimpsing the ultimate and knowledge sides. The temptation for me now is to dismiss things as merely "conventional" or "ordinary" but that would be a bad mistake because there *is* no dichotomy. Phil's latest post of his conversation with Rob K deals in part with being told to leave certain aspects to another lifetime and what bad advice that was. These different aspects "polish" each other, to use Bhikkhu Bodhi's words. We need to be careful with "dichotomous talk". It can lead to imbalance. Best wishes Andrew 33681 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) Dear Htoo, Thank you very much. I find it diifficult to understand each akusala citta has the intensity of akusala kamma. There are so many degrees of kusala and akusala. As was discussed before, when I take a glass of water there is likely to be lobha already, but not a bad deed through body, speech or mind. True, lobha accumulates all the time and perhaps you mean: then there will be conditions for akusala that has the strength of akusala kamma later on. Nina. op 06-06-2004 18:33 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > As > soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma. 33682 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi James, Thanks for your comments. We were discussing the fetters eradicated at the first stage of the sotapanna. We’ve listed these before. --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Thank you for being more direct. That really helps to > facilitate discussion. I understand what you are saying about the > commentaries, written/translated by Buddhaghosa, and the Abhidhamma, > but I haven't seen you give any examples of suttas to prove this > contention. .... S: In addition to the commentary on the ‘Simile of the Cloth’ I wrote another post with detail from the suttas themselves, quoting from: SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and M104, Saamagaama Sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591 Of course, just like Sakka’s Questions, which you quoted from DN, it depends how any sutta is interpreted. Certainly there’s no rule about accepting the commentaries or Abhidhamma or even Suttas for that matter. .... > James: I don't believe that a sotapanna has eradicated wrong > view?? Where is this presented in the suttas? Let's go through the > list again, as they are presented by the Buddha in the suttas: > > 1) The stream-winner (sotapanna): is one who has become free from > the first three of the ten fetters which bind beings to the sensuous > sphere, namely, personality belief, sceptical doubt, and attachment > to mere rules and rituals. At this stage, one has realized nibbâna > for the first time, and there are 7 more rebirths utmost. ..... S: All wrong views depend on personality/identity/self view (sakkaya ditthi) which we both understood to be eradicated at this stage. See SN41:3 Isidatta as an example: >“Venerable Elder, there are various views that arise in the world: ‘The world is eternal’ or ‘the world is not eternal’; or ‘the world is finite’ or ‘The world is infinite’.............or ‘the Tathaagata neither exists nor does not exist after death’ -these as well as the sixty-two views mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?” <.....> “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world is eternal’....-these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view,these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.”< ***** I think the second reference I’m about to give is also useful, but you’re welcome to skip the commentary note. See MN9, Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, transl by ~Naanamoli with commentary (on-line, lost the link): "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what way is a noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" Commentary note: “But here "one of right view" is intended as one possessing supramundane wholesome right view, which is fixed in destiny and emancipating. Hence he said: whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma (ujugata'ssa ditthi dhamme aveccappasadena samannagato agato imam saddhammam). Because of its going straight without deviating to either extreme, or because of its going straight by removing all crookedness such as bodily crookedness, etc., supramundane right view is "straight." One possessing that view also possesses perfect confidence, unshakable confidence, in the ninefold supramundane Dhamma.[6] And by becoming disentangled from all the thickets of (wrong) views, by abandoning all the defilements, by departing from the round of rebirths, by bringing the practice to its consummation, he is said to have come by the noble path to this "true Dhamma" proclaimed by the Enlightened One, that is, Nibbana, the plunge into the Deathless.” ****** Metta, Sarah ====== 33683 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi Howard (& RobM), Sorry for the delay. You raised a number of good points regarding internal and external rupas. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > I say that depends on what one means by "external rupa". I take > eye > door to be "internal rupa" and visual object to be "external rupa". .... S: I think internal and external have different meanings in different contexts. Here, you are rightly referring to the internal and external sense fields or ayatanas. In this sense, visible object is always external ayatana. Good point, but not the use that RobM was indicating (post 33457) when discussing various causes of visible objects, sounds and so on. Here we can refer to rupas arising in kalapas in the body as internal and those outside the body (e.g in rocks) as external. .... >Both > of > these, however, are functional elements of experience. Some physical > thing or > event "out there" that is a *basis* for the visual object but is > different from > visual object is merely hypothesized and is never known but only > inferred, > whereas visual object is known. .... S: Agreed. When the characteristic of v.o. is seen, there is no idea of ‘in here’ or ‘out there’. His original question however related to why sound is not a kamma-born rupa and v.o. can be. Understanding details intellectually can help lead to more understanding of conditions and anatta, though as you point out, it’s not the same as direct understanding when that characteristic appears. ... >A "physical" thing or event "out there" > independent > of experience is a part of our world of concept, but it may well be no > more > than that. .... S: O.K. ... >We cannot know that there is no such thing, nor can we know > that > there is. When pragmatism is adopted with regard to this, one gets my > radical > phenomenalist view that dismisses such a notion. Rob, as I understand > him, does > not dismiss it, but takes the point of view that the Dhamma doesn't deal > with > it, except when expressing itself via standard conventions. .... S: The teachings deal with all dhammas as elements whether experienced or not. Considering beyond what is directly known now helps us understand more about anatta so that we don’t cling to an idea of a rock or a person even if the eyes are closed and no reality is seen. As with any aspect of the teachings, we needed to hear about it first and to consider as conditions for it to be known. Without hearing about visible object, we’d always we think we saw people and things, for example. .... > Howard: > That is just a presumption on your part, Sarah. The "body", and > "the > external rocks", and, in fact, "the window that you are looking out of > at the > moment" all have as much reality to them as "my tree in the garden". ... S: Agreed. These are all concepts. I was distinguishing between rupas conditioned by different causes. There is no kamma involved in the conditioning of rupas in what we call a rock. When there is seeing, whether looking at what we call the body or out of what we call a window, only visible object is experienced. .... >All > are > the imagined referents of mind constructs, mere story projections. To > speak of > kalapas as constituents of these is to make kalapas and their > constituent rupas > constituents of pa~n~natti. .... S: No. Rupas are real, pannatti are not. Whether or not there is any idea of ‘rock’ or ‘tree’, there are still kalapas of rupas rising and falling. .... >Whatever is knowably actual must be part of > experience. Anything else is merely conceptually projected and > hypothesized, as I > see it. ... S: In terms of experience, yes, I agree. In terms of realities taught by the Buddha, then no. If none of us were on the earth, it wouldn’t mean there were no rupas arising and falling. It would mean there was no experience of them by cittas. .... > Howard: > But I go further, and point out that not only are these not of > major > concern, but that these are merely hypothesized. ... S: Yes, right and wrong hypothesis however. Intellectual understanding of what is right (the Tipitaka) can lead to more detachment and understanding. I agree with you that the most important thing is understanding the presently appearing nama or rupa, however. If that is thinking, speculation, annoyance, hardness or visible object, it can be known now and this is the path. Have I clarified or confused? Metta, Sarah ==== 33684 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: Brahma viharas, no 2 Hi Nina, All, Nina wrote: > In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity, > tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very necessary for > all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, namely, > attachment and aversion. > **** > Nina Is every arising of kusala citta, with accompanying cetasika tatramajjhattata, also a moment of developing the perfection upekkha and at the same time a dwelling in the Brahma-Vihara Upekkha? Thanks Steve 33685 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Sarah, Sarah: In addition to the commentary on the `Simile of the Cloth' I wrote another post with detail from the suttas themselves, quoting from: SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and M104, Saamagaama Sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591 James: Thank you for this link; I hadn't read this post. However, I don't really see how these sutta quotes relate to the subject we are discussing. None of them speak about jealousy. Did I miss something? I read that post a couple of times and I don't see jealousy mentioned in the sutta quotes. The first sutta, SN55, speaks about stinginess being eradicated, but not jealousy. Couldn't one be generous and jealous at the same time? I think so. One could be jealous that others have more money to give away! ;-)) hehehe… Metta, James 33686 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt. 3 Does break from DSG give more time for reflection? Hi Phil & All, --- Philip wrote: > > Does anyone else have thoughts on the potential value of taking > occasional breaks from discussion when reflecting on suttas or other > teachings? .... S: I’d say no rule at all, otherwise it’s like we’re trying to plan a course of action again, rather than understanding conditions and anatta. As Rob said, there can be awareness and understanding anytime. As you’ve found before, we may plan to take a break and end up posting or vice versa. I was intending to write on Friday, but my old arm problem was playing up and I couldn’t. Anything can happen by conditions and in the end there are just rapidly changing namas and rupas. A friend mentioned off-list that perhaps it’s better not to write or speak unless one can be sure all the conditions of good speech are present -- so I'd like to include one or two comments on this here as well -- i.e “It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.’ AN V.198 **** Again with other suttas we need to understand right speech as referring to rapidly changing cittas that should be known. Whether I write or keep quiet now, there are bound to be kusala and akusala cittas. It’s like when we give a gift or help our students too, we can’t say what is good and bad or right and wrong. Only the development of satipatthana will help understand and develop detachment from whatever is conditioned now. Otherwise, so easily it’s just more clinging to my ‘right speech’ or doing what is best for ‘me’ or ‘my practice’ instead of just helping or having metta or understanding reality at this moment. Of course, the cittas will always be mixed. This doesn’t mean waiting for them all to be pure before doing anything, otherwise there’d be no discussion list for a start;-). I heard K.Sujin saying that when there is a story about whether ‘this is this’ or ‘that is that’ it ‘cannot help eradicate the idea of self’. She added, ‘citta arises and falls so fast by conditions - we cannot say this word is conditioned by kusala and that by akusala. It’s most beneficial to understand reality.’ She also reminded us that when there is attachment to ‘my good speech’ or aversion to ‘my bad speech’, there’s lot’s of akusala and clinging to self again. The reminders Nina gave on metta are very helpful too: “We do not think of ourselves expecting friendship from others. Metta or friendship arises with the citta,and if we expect something for ourselves there is no true metta. Thus, we need truthfulness, sincerity at all times.” We could add that when we offer assistance or try to clarify points for example, there’s no need or use in expecting friendship or appreciation. We just try to act as good friends, that’s all.* I liked the comments you and others made about conceit as well. As Nina said, even while thinking ‘these flowers are not fresh’. There are more and more subtle layers of kilesa (defilements). More examples of conceit popping in: His/her answer isn’t as clearly put as it could be, I understood that point better, the job could be done better, I wouldn’t speak like that, I’d have added a reference......etc etc .... >Of course I know it is a mistake to think that conditions > such as silence and uncrowdedness must be in place before > understanding can arise, and yet, thinking of the sutta above, I want > to think more about this "wise attention."....Was it yonisomething? What is that yonisomething and how rare > is its arising? .... This yonisomething is yoniso manasikara or wise attention which arises with all kusala cittas. (See under U.P.) Again there can be wise attention with satipatthana anytime - even now or at times when one feels rather overwhelmed or thinks about needing to absorb the material. The practice always comes back to this moment, not to waiting for another time or setting rules. From the Tiika (sub-commentary) to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl): “Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom (pa~n~naa bhaavanaa). Just the contemplation [S: i.e understanding] of material form (corporeality) [S: i.e rupas], of feeling, consciousness [S: i e namas] or mental objects [S: namas and rupas], constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness [S: i e satipatthana or the practice taught by the Buddha]” Metta, Sarah *(also see in U.P. under brahma viharas and sacca (truth) too;-)) ================== 33687 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi RobM (Nina & Agrios), --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Nina / Sarah / others, > > I would like to summarize the recent points made on the heart base > (hadayavatthu): > > On page 144 of In CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes: > > According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the physical > support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense > consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their > bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly > mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, > simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind element > and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, > subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity > situated within the physical heart. > ... Text from Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Compendium of Bases (vatthusangaha) (CMA transl): “In the summary of bases, there are six bases, namely, eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, and heart-base. All these, too, are found in the sense world. but in the fine-material world three bases - nose, tongue, and body - are not found. In the immaterial world no base exists.” ***** The full commentary note which I think B.Bodhi is summarising above, found in the comy to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ch 6 (PTS, transl by Wijeratne & Gethin, p221): “The heart-base is just the heart itself which, being a support for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness elements, is also a base. thus it has the characteristic of being the support of two elements, and it exists within the chamber of the heart supported by blood of the amount of half a cup. Although it is not mentioned in the section on materiality (in the Dhammasangani] ***it should be understood that its existence is in accordance with the scriptural tradition and reasonable***. Therein the statement that has come down in the Patthana - namely ‘materiality, upon which the mind-element and the mind-consciousness element occur depending for support, is a condition by way of support-condition for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness element, and also the dhammas associated with it’ - constitutes the tradition. Its reasonableness should be understood as follows: ‘For beings of the sense and form existences, the two [consciousness] elements exist supported by actual physical elements, since these exist in connection with materiality in the same manner as eye-consciousness, etc. These [two elements] are not supported by the eye, etc., since these exist as the support of something else; nor are they connected with visible objects, etc., since these occur outside. Nor is life [the support], since this is engaged in a different function; nor the two sexes, since [the two consciousness elements] occur in the absence of these; Therefore it should be understood that there is a base other than these, constituted by the physical elements. But since it would create a discrepancy in the pairs of base and object, the Great Sage has not declared this in the text of the Dhammasangaini.’ ” ***** S: In other words the base has to be a rupa amongst the 28 rupas and by a process of elimination and for other reasons, it has to be the heart-base, I understand. Metta, Sarah p.s you’ve given excellent and detailed answers to Lee’s qus. That’s great that you’ll be meeting soon. I hope you or Lee gives us a report and more about your talks. ============= 33688 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:18am Subject: Ceasing Craving ! Friends: Cutting the crucial link between Feeling & Craving: The Buddha said: One seeing a form with the eye ... One hearing a sound with the ear ... One smelling a scent with the nose ... One tasting a flavor with the tongue ... One touching a tangible with the body ... One thinking a thought with the mind ... One should Not Lust after it, if it is pleasant. One should Neither Disgust it, if it is unpleasant. One should remain aware of the body well established within an infinite mind ... # Thus one understands the Release of Mind & the Release through Understanding, wherein all these detrimental mental states cease without remainder ... Having left behind both all approaching & all opposing; Having eliminated both all attraction & all repulsion; Then whatever feeling one feels, whether pleasant, painful or neither pleasant nor painful, one does not delight in that feeling; one does not welcome that feeling; nor sink in that feeling; one does not follow, hold on to nor crave that very feeling... So doing, delight in the various feelings gradually ceases in one... With the ceasing of delight, comes the ceasing of clinging. With the ceasing of clinging, comes the ceasing of becoming. With the ceasing of becoming, comes the ceasing of rebirth. With the ceasing of birth, comes the ceasing of all ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, crying, pain, melancholy & despair. So indeed is the cessation of this entire mass of Suffering ... --oo0oo-- The Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha: Majjhima Nikaya I 270. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.wisdompubs.org/products/086171072X.cfm Comments #: Awareness of internal organs of Body prevents lust... Mind made Infinite by Universal friendliness, pity, mutual joy & balanced equanimity prevents aversion... Thus one remains mindfully alert, neutral & indifferent, watching the immediate present, so whenever feeling inevitably arise, it do never overcome nor dominate mind. If one is unaware, pleasant feeling makes craving arise. If one is unaware, painful feeling makes aversion arise. If one is unaware, neutral feeling makes neglect arise. Craving, aversion & neglect are the 3 roots of Suffering! Yet by being acutely alert & aware, this craving is prevented, whether it is directed towards (as lust) or away (as anger) from the object. By the final irreversible destruction of Craving, there is Release. By this Release there is the Certainty: This & such is Freedom, done is done, no more of this is there... All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 33689 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) Dear Nina, Thanks for your comment on the thread. Yes, as you said there are so many degrees of kusala and akusala. From very subtle to very wicked ones. We can apparently see that there are also so many forms of cittas that arise as results of past kamma like 10 dvipancavinnana cittas and others like sampaticchana cittas and santirana cittas and mahavipaka cittas that arise in kama sattas. We don't need to worry minor accumulations as they cannot be avoided. This is evident that there will not be no continuous good things in kama bhumis. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Thank you very much. > I find it diifficult to understand each akusala citta has the intensity of > akusala kamma. There are so many degrees of kusala and akusala. As was > discussed before, when I take a glass of water there is likely to be lobha > already, but not a bad deed through body, speech or mind. True, lobha > accumulates all the time and perhaps you mean: then there will be conditions > for akusala that has the strength of akusala kamma later on. > Nina. > op 06-06-2004 18:33 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > As > > soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma. 33690 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 4:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 030 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 2nd citta of 89 cittas is also lobha mula citta or attachment rooted consciousness. This lobha citta in its full name is called as 'somanassa sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam sasankharika citta'. This citta arises with somanassa or pleasant mental feeling. It arises mixed with ditthi cetasika or wrong view believing that there is no results of any action and there is no kamma. Sasankharika is made up of 'sa' and 'sankhara'. Sa means 'with' 'together with' 'along with' 'in the presence of something '. So sasankharika means 'with prompt' or 'with influence' or 'with stimulation'. There is a child. He is given a unknown packet. He takes it. He does not know what is in it. His mother tells him, 'John, open it up and take the sweet inside'. At the time of receiving the packet, the child did not know anyhting connected to the packet and he is indifferent. But as soon as he hears his mother's word 'sweet' he becomes delighted. Because he has experience with sweet. At that time lobha citta arises in him. That citta brings pleasant mental feeling. The child does not know any kamma or anything related to it. So there is somanassa and ditthi. And the citta arise only when prompted at least by himself or by his mother's word. This sasankharika citta can also arise in any other people with different maturity. In this sasankharika lobha citta, there arise thina cetasika and middha cetasika. Thina is sloth, slowness of citta and middha is torpor, slowness of cetasikas. Sasankharika cittas are not so strnog as in cases of assankharika cittas. In terms of kamma, asankharika cittas will give rise to much much more strong degrees of effects while sasakharika cittas will reslt in less strong effect. As these 2 cittas are akusala cittas, their results will be vipaka cittas which will be bad things as they are the result of akusala cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33691 From: Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi, Sarah (and James) - In a message dated 6/7/04 4:11:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi James, > > Thanks for your comments. We were discussing the fetters eradicated at the > first stage of the sotapanna. We’ve listed these before. > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > >James: Thank you for being more direct. That really helps to > >facilitate discussion. I understand what you are saying about the > >commentaries, written/translated by Buddhaghosa, and the Abhidhamma, > >but I haven't seen you give any examples of suttas to prove this > >contention. > .... > S: In addition to the commentary on the ‘Simile of the Cloth’ I wrote > another post with detail from the suttas themselves, quoting from: > SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and > M104, Saamagaama Sutta > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591 > > Of course, just like Sakka’s Questions, which you quoted from DN, it > depends how any sutta is interpreted. Certainly there’s no rule about > accepting the commentaries or Abhidhamma or even Suttas for that matter. > .... > >James: I don't believe that a sotapanna has eradicated wrong > >view?? Where is this presented in the suttas? Let's go through the > >list again, as they are presented by the Buddha in the suttas: > > > >1) The stream-winner (sotapanna): is one who has become free from > >the first three of the ten fetters which bind beings to the sensuous > >sphere, namely, personality belief, sceptical doubt, and attachment > >to mere rules and rituals. At this stage, one has realized nibbâna > >for the first time, and there are 7 more rebirths utmost. > ..... > S: All wrong views depend on personality/identity/self view (sakkaya > ditthi) which we both understood to be eradicated at this stage. > > See SN41:3 Isidatta as an example: > > >“Venerable Elder, there are various views that arise in the world: ‘The > world is eternal’ or ‘the world is not eternal’; or ‘the world is finite’ > or ‘The world is infinite’.............or ‘the Tathaagata neither exists > nor does not exist after death’ -these as well as the sixty-two views > mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to > be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?â€? > <.....> > “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world > is eternal’....-these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned > in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view,these views come to be; > when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.â€?< > ***** > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here, Sarah, you make a telling point, IMO. I think that the logic that infers the uprooting of wrong view at stream entry from the 1) the uprooting of personality view and 2) “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world is eternal’....-these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view,these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.â€? is irrefutable. There is only one question I have in this regard: Is the Pali for 'identity view' the same as the Pali for 'personality view', and, if not, does identity view go *beyond* personality view. If they translate tyhe same Pali or Pali terma with the same meaning, then I consider this particular issue settled. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I find the next reference irrelevant. -------------------------------------------------- > I think the second reference I’m about to give is also useful, but you’re > welcome to skip the commentary note. See MN9, > Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, transl by ~Naanamoli with commentary (on-line, lost > the link): > > "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what way is a > noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect > confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" > > Commentary note: > > “But here "one of right view" is intended as one possessing supramundane > wholesome right view, which is fixed in destiny and emancipating. Hence > he said: whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the > Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma (ujugata'ssa ditthi dhamme > aveccappasadena samannagato agato imam saddhammam). Because of its going > straight without deviating to either extreme, or because of its going > straight by removing all crookedness such as bodily crookedness, etc., > supramundane right view is "straight." One possessing that view also > possesses perfect confidence, unshakable confidence, in the ninefold > supramundane Dhamma.[6] And by becoming disentangled from all the > thickets of (wrong) views, by abandoning all the defilements, by departing > from the round of rebirths, by bringing the practice to its consummation, > he is said to have come by the noble path to this "true Dhamma" proclaimed > by the Enlightened One, that is, Nibbana, the plunge into the Deathless.â€? > ****** > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33692 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 5:56am Subject: Page 37 for Patthana Dhamma, Object Condition/ Arammana Paccaya Dear Dhamma Friends, Recently the page 37 has been released. In that page, ongoing discussion of object condition in relation with daily life continues to other arammana namely sound object, smell object, taste object, and touch-sense object. It can now be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana37.html . In that page the previous page 36 is linked. If patthana have not ever been studied, initiation of patthana dhamma can be studied starts from the first page at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html . The discussions will be continued as time allows and if there arise any queries just put the questions on the list triplegem or JourneyToNibbana or dhamma-list or dhammastudygroup. Hoping discussions are helpful and these may add to the existing practice. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33693 From: Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi, Sarah - What I will add below does not add anything new that is of much substance; it is more in the form of jousting! ;-) I just feel the need to respond to a few statements. In a message dated 6/7/04 5:15:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (& RobM), > > Sorry for the delay. You raised a number of good points regarding internal > and external rupas. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Howard: > > I say that depends on what one means by "external rupa". I take > >eye > >door to be "internal rupa" and visual object to be "external rupa". > .... > S: I think internal and external have different meanings in different > contexts. Here, you are rightly referring to the internal and external > sense fields or ayatanas. In this sense, visible object is always external > ayatana. Good point, but not the use that RobM was indicating (post 33457) > when discussing various causes of visible objects, sounds and so on. Here > we can refer to rupas arising in kalapas in the body as internal and those > outside the body (e.g in rocks) as external. > .... > >Both > >of > >these, however, are functional elements of experience. Some physical > >thing or > >event "out there" that is a *basis* for the visual object but is > >different from > >visual object is merely hypothesized and is never known but only > >inferred, > >whereas visual object is known. > .... > S: Agreed. When the characteristic of v.o. is seen, there is no idea of > ‘in here’ or ‘out there’. His original question however related to why > sound is not a kamma-born rupa and v.o. can be. Understanding details > intellectually can help lead to more understanding of conditions and > anatta, though as you point out, it’s not the same as direct understanding > when that characteristic appears. > ... > >A "physical" thing or event "out there" > >independent > >of experience is a part of our world of concept, but it may well be no > >more > >than that. > .... > S: O.K. > ... > >We cannot know that there is no such thing, nor can we know > >that > >there is. When pragmatism is adopted with regard to this, one gets my > >radical > >phenomenalist view that dismisses such a notion. Rob, as I understand > >him, does > >not dismiss it, but takes the point of view that the Dhamma doesn't deal > >with > >it, except when expressing itself via standard conventions. > .... > S: The teachings deal with all dhammas as elements whether experienced or > not. Considering beyond what is directly known now helps us understand > more about anatta so that we don’t cling to an idea of a rock or a person > even if the eyes are closed and no reality is seen. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Clinging to rocks and persons is overcome by realizing that such "things" are, in fact, never observed, but only mentally constructed. (The same is true for alleged rupas that are different from sense objects, but are claimed to underlie sense objects.) --------------------------------------------- As with any aspect of> > the teachings, we needed to hear about it first and to consider as > conditions for it to be known. Without hearing about visible object, we’d > always we think we saw people and things, for example. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Unless one is extraordinarily adept spiritually, hearing about what is actually observed is necessary. But it is not sufficient. The training of the mind to see what really arises is necessary as well. --------------------------------------------- > .... > >Howard: > > That is just a presumption on your part, Sarah. The "body", and > >"the > >external rocks", and, in fact, "the window that you are looking out of > >at the > >moment" all have as much reality to them as "my tree in the garden". > ... > S: Agreed. These are all concepts. I was distinguishing between rupas > conditioned by different causes. There is no kamma involved in the > conditioning of rupas in what we call a rock. When there is seeing, > whether looking at what we call the body or out of what we call a window, > only visible object is experienced. > .... > >All > >are > >the imagined referents of mind constructs, mere story projections. To > >speak of > >kalapas as constituents of these is to make kalapas and their > >constituent rupas > >constituents of pa~n~natti. > .... > S: No. Rupas are real, pannatti are not. Whether or not there is any idea > of ‘rock’ or ‘tree’, there are still kalapas of rupas rising and falling. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: How do you know there are kalapas? Have you ever encountered one, or do you just believe? If only believed, well, I think trees are prettier to believe in! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ > .... > >Whatever is knowably actual must be part of > >experience. Anything else is merely conceptually projected and > >hypothesized, as I > >see it. > ... > S: In terms of experience, yes, I agree. In terms of realities taught by > the Buddha, then no. If none of us were on the earth, it wouldn’t mean > there were no rupas arising and falling. It would mean there was no > experience of them by cittas. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That is a presumption, and it is one that is in principle untestable. ------------------------------------------------- > .... > >Howard: > > But I go further, and point out that not only are these not of > >major > >concern, but that these are merely hypothesized. > ... > S: Yes, right and wrong hypothesis however. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: But there is no basis for distinguishing whether belief in the existence of unobservable phenomena is right or wrong. This is a matter of untestable faith - now you bring in "religion". ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Intellectual understanding of> > what is right (the Tipitaka) can lead to more detachment and > understanding. I agree with you that the most important thing is > understanding the presently appearing nama or rupa, however. If that is > thinking, speculation, annoyance, hardness or visible object, it can be > known now and this is the path. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Has the Buddha ever asserted the existence of rupas in the suttas that are different from sense objects? I doubt it. If he had, however, I wouldn't accept it - I would not accept on the basis of authority a proposition that is in principle unverifiable. The Buddha, himself, cautioned accepting a matter on the basis of authority, but urged our investigating the matter for ourselves. --------------------------------------------- > > Have I clarified or confused? > > Metta, > > Sarah =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33694 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > "In the summary of bases, there are six bases, namely, eye-, ear-, nose-, > tongue-, body-, and heart-base. > > All these, too, are found in the sense world. but in the fine- material > world three bases - nose, tongue, and body - are not found. In the > immaterial world no base exists." > ***** > The full commentary note which I think B.Bodhi is summarising above, found > in the comy to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ch 6 (PTS, transl by Wijeratne > & Gethin, p221): > > "The heart-base is just the heart itself which, being a support for the > mind-element and the mind-consciousness elements, is also a base. thus it > has the characteristic of being the support of two elements, and it exists > within the chamber of the heart supported by blood of the amount of half a > cup. Although it is not mentioned in the section on materiality (in the > Dhammasangani] ***it should be understood that its existence is in > accordance with the scriptural tradition and reasonable***. Therein the > statement that has come down in the Patthana - namely `materiality, upon > which the mind-element and the mind-consciousness element occur depending > for support, is a condition by way of support-condition for the > mind-element and the mind-consciousness element, and also the dhammas > associated with it' - constitutes the tradition. Its reasonableness should > be understood as follows: > > `For beings of the sense and form existences, the two [consciousness] > elements exist supported by actual physical elements, since these exist in > connection with materiality in the same manner as eye- consciousness, etc. > > These [two elements] are not supported by the eye, etc., since these exist > as the support of something else; nor are they connected with visible > objects, etc., since these occur outside. > > Nor is life [the support], since this is engaged in a different function; > nor the two sexes, since [the two consciousness elements] occur in the > absence of these; > > Therefore it should be understood that there is a base other than these, > constituted by the physical elements. But since it would create a > discrepancy in the pairs of base and object, the Great Sage has not > declared this in the text of the Dhammasangaini.' " > ***** > S: In other words the base has to be a rupa amongst the 28 rupas and by a > process of elimination and for other reasons, it has to be the heart-base, > I understand. ===== I have followed this logic and agree that it is logical and reasonable that there is a base among the rupas to support the mind- element and the mind-consciousness-element. What is not logical and reasonable (at least to me) is that this rupa is associated with the physical heart. At the time of the patisandhi citta there is no physical heart. I still feel more comfortable sticking with the wording of the Patthana, "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur" rather than introducing the physical heart into the discussion. Metta, Rob M :-) 33695 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma Phil --- Philip wrote: > Talk with Rob pt.2 > > I was telling Rob about how I came to be interested in Abhidhamma. > > Phil: Soon after coming to the group I read a post by Jon about how > studying Abhidhamma before studying the suttana is recommended. Er, if I said that then I need to make a quick correction. There is not any 'better' order for studying the dhamma. It's not a case of less time on suttas, more on Abhidhamma; one reads what one feels inclined to. Actually for most people it's the suttas that pique the interest initially. Of course, I do believe that the study of the Abhidhamma, or more correctly, of things found in the Abhidhamma, is a great help to the understanding of the suttas, and I would encourage anyone so inclined to spend more time reading or discussing those aspects of the teachings. Let me say that your own interest in Abhidhamma, Phil, is highly unusual and you are in a very small (but, I believe, fortunate) minority. And I do not include myself there ;-)) Jon 33696 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 031 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 3rd citta of 89 cittas in its full name is 'somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam asankharika citta'. Somanassa has been explained and it is 'pleasant mental feeling'. It is happiness. Vippayutta means 'not associated with'. So this citta is a state of mind when there is happiness and when there is a belief that kamma does exist and when there is no prompt or stimulation. This citta can be seen in case of greediness of an adult who is a learned person. When a man wins the state lottery, there arise the 3rd citta if he is a well-learned person and knows kamma well. So there is no ditthi at that time. So it is ditthigata vippayuttam. As he is happy at that time, he has somanassa as a feeling. No one need to push him to be greedy in this case and this is asankharika or unprompted. The 4th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is 'somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam sasankharika citta'. This citta as compared to the 3rd citta, it needs to be prompted. This citta can be seen in case of a man having greediness as a mental impulse while he hears that the blacken materials in his hand, which he picked up from on a common road, is gold. As an adult who is a learned and knows kamma, there is no ditthi and this citta is ditthi gata vippayutta. As soon as he hears the things in his hand is gold he feels happy and joyous. This is somanassa. But when he picked these materials on the way he did not feel anything. As the things he picked up are on the common road, he has an opportunity to possess all those thing. But he does not know that it is gold. When it is said to be gold, he become greedy. This information as sound from outside is prompting to arise greediness. So the 4th citta is sasankharika citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33697 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, no single (paramatthic) condition, including concentration, constitutes a cause. But there are so many suttas that emphasize the important causal role (as a factor among several), that it strikes me as odd how folks seems to be afraid of it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well this is the nub of the matter. There are many suttas that emphasise the important *conditioning* role of different factors including concentration. But there are very few, if any (none come to mind as I write), that talk about a *cause* of insight/enlightenment. Indeed, the whole of the teachings is about how dhammas *condition* each other in various ways (think dependent origination, Four Noble Truths, etc), and the conditioned nature of everything. As I'm sure I've made clear on previous occasions, I'd be happy to look at any of the 'many suttas' you claim as support here. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Concentration and intention appear to be two important phenomena that "scare the bejesus" out of some of the folks here. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another of your periodic sweeping statements, Howard ;-)). Any chance of some specifics that could form the basis of a discussion (I don’t want to get into a 'Yes you are', 'No I'm not' kind of exchange)? Jon 33698 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi Howard (James & All), --- upasaka@a... wrote: >There is only one question I have in this regard: Is the > Pali for 'identity > view' the same as the Pali for 'personality view', .... S: Yes - sakkaayadi.t.thi. In his introduction to the Brahmajala Sutta and commentary (published by BPS), B.Bodhi refers to this same passage and here he uses ‘personality view’. I was recommending this text to someone recently here. As many people don’t have it, I’ll quote the piece from the intro which includes this with B.Bodhi’s comments (part of which I’ve given before). I’d be interested to hear any comments on it: ...... BB: “All the views dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two sources, reasoning and meditative experience. The fact that a great number, perhaps the majority, have their source in the experience of meditative attainments has significant implications for our understanding of the genetic process behind the fabrication of views. It suffices to caution us agaisnt the hasty generalization that speculative views take rise through a preference for theorization over the more arduous task of practice. “As our [Brahmajala] sutta shows, many of these views make their appearance only at the end of a prolonged course of meditation involving firm renunciation, intense devotion, and keen contemplative zeal. For these views the very basis of their formulation is a higher experience rather than the absence of one. That views of a metaphysical nature result from such endeavours indicates that they spring from a source more deeply grounded in the human mind even than the disposition to theorization. This source is the clinging to being, the fundamental need to establish and maintain, within the empirical personality, some permanent basis of selfhood or individualized existence. The clinging to being issues in a ‘personality view’ (sakkaayadi.t.thi) affirming the presence of an abiding self in the pyschophysical organismin one of twenty ways: as identical with, possessing, contained within or containing one or another of the five aggregates that constitute the individual personality - material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Arisen already at the pre-reflective level, this view in turn becomes the basis for latter reflective interpretations of existence, crystallizing into the sixty-two views of the sutta. As it is explained: “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world, ...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist” (S 1V 7.3). “Since the notion of selfhood is accepted uncritically at the level of ordinary experience, higher attainments in meditation, as the Brahmajala shows, will not suffice to eliminate the notion but will only reinforce it by providing apparent verification of the self originally presupposed at the outset of practice. It is as if one were to lead a man wearing red-tinted glasses from a small room to an open field. The change of scene will not alter the colour of his vision, for as long as he is wearing red glasses everything he sees will be coloured red. The change will only give him a larger area to see as red, but will not help him to see things in their true colour. Analogously, if one begins a practice with a view of self, and persists without changing this view, then whatever develops in the course of practice will go to confirm the initial thesis. the attainments will not themselves alter the view, while the deeper states of consciousness that unfold will be misconstrued in terms of the erroneous notion. Taking the idea of self at its face value, as indicating a real entity, the theorist will proceed to weave aroound it a web of speculations apparently confirmed by his attainments: as to whether the self is eternal or non-eternal, everlasting or perishable, finite or infinite, universal or individual, etc. “What is essential, therefore, from the Buddhist standpoint, is not simply to practice rather than to theorize, but to practice on the basis of right understanding. Thence in contrast to the speculative systems, the Buddhist system of meditation takes as its foundation the doctrine of egolessness or non-self (anattaa)” ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 33699 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma Phil (and All) Er, another correction/clarification... --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Phil ... > Let me say that your own interest in Abhidhamma, Phil, is highly unusual > and you are in a very small (but, I believe, fortunate) minority. And I > do not include myself there ;-)) I mean of course that I did not have that level of interest in the Abhidhamma at such an early stage of my interest in the Dhamma, and that is despite having a lot of exposure to it in various forms (including getting the first lot of ADL printed, and doing all the proofreading etc that that entailed). In my case it has been something that has developed over years (if not decades!). Jon 33700 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma Hi Jon > > Phil: Soon after coming to the group I read a post by Jon about how > > studying Abhidhamma before studying the suttana is recommended. > Jon:> Er, if I said that then I need to make a quick correction. Ph: No, no. That's not possible, Jon. No corrections are permitted!;) Actually, I twisted you words unintentionally. I think it was more that you were stressing the importance of Abhidhamma for being able to understand the suttas, not the order per se. Here's that passage that changed my life!: "First, just to clarify the context of my post, what I said there is not so much my own view as my understanding of what is being said in the texts, including the Abhidhamma and commentaries. I believe that a knowledge of the Abhidhamma and commentaries in necessary for a proper understanding of the discourses. What was said in the suttas was addressed to persons who were on the whole of highly developed understanding, many of them ripe for immediate or imminent enlightenment (in other words, of much greater understanding than ourselves), so much of it goes over our heads, even though the language seems familiar. Without the help of the Abhidhamma and commentaries we may misconstrue the suttas." (From somewhere in the Useful Posts) (end quote) As you said, though, it is unlikely that we will come across and feel a connection to Abdhidhamma without an initial brush with the suttas. An initial reading of suttas with a lot of misconstrue-ing, and then a later reading with less misconstrue-ing thanks to having studied Abhidhamma a little, and so on down the line... > Let me say that your own interest in Abhidhamma, Phil, is highly unusual > and you are in a very small (but, I believe, fortunate) minority. And I > do not include myself there ;-)) Ph: It just seems so logical to me. What on earth could be of more importance than what we experience though the sense doors, including the mind? What else is there, really? People at another forum chide me for being an uptight intellectual. There is this idea that Abhidhamma is theoretical wankery. What could be less theoretical than studying what is arising at this very moment? I do feel fortunate for having tuned into that for whatever reason, even though I am still at a very basic level of understanding Abhidhamma. I will be doing a lot more study of suttas in the years to come than I am now. And getting more out of it than I would have without reading that post of yours that led me to Abhidhamma. Thank you! Metta, Phil 33701 From: Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/7/04 10:16:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Concentration and intention appear to be two important phenomena that > "scare the bejesus" out of some of the folks here. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Another of your periodic sweeping statements, Howard ;-)). Any chance of > some specifics that could form the basis of a discussion (I don’t want to > get into a 'Yes you are', 'No I'm not' kind of exchange)? > ====================== I get it - motivated by the passing of former U.S. President Reagan, you are saying "There he goes again!" ;-)) Well, Jon, let's just leave it that what makes people uncomfortable is in the eye of the beholder. My "eye" has been seeing discomfort with regard to concentration and volition for quite a while. Of course my view could be jaundiced. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33702 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Let me say that your own interest in Abhidhamma, Phil, is highly > unusual > > and you are in a very small (but, I believe, fortunate) minority. > And I > > do not include myself there ;-)) > > Ph: It just seems so logical to me. What on earth could be of more > importance than what we experience though the sense doors, including > the mind? What else is there, really? People at another forum chide > me for being an uptight intellectual. There is this idea that > Abhidhamma is theoretical wankery. What could be less theoretical > than studying what is arising at this very moment? I do feel > fortunate for having tuned into that for whatever reason, even though > I am still at a very basic level of understanding Abhidhamma. > > I will be doing a lot more study of suttas in the years to come > than I am now. And getting more out of it than I would have without > reading that post of yours that led me to Abhidhamma. Thank you! You and I are kindred spirits. I also started my serious study of Buddhism with Abhidhamma and then followed it up with the Suttas. My knowledge of Abhidhamma really helps me to appreciate the Suttas. Metta, Rob M :-) 33703 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg]Rob K pt. 3 more time for reflection? Hello Philip, Very good discussion. See below. op 06-06-2004 13:26 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > just the volume of discussion > decreasing. Is there more time for reflection. > > Rob: It doesn?ft matter really. I mean, if you?fre not > writing you can be reading, and if you?fre not reading you can be > reflection. And if you?fre not reflecting there?fs nama and > rupa happening now, you know. Nina: We cannot plan those things. You may take time off and then you may get distracted with other things, who knows? Whatever you learn has to sink in, and then there will be conditions for reflecting no matter where you are. Or for awareness and understanding of sound, hardness, whatever appears. I learnt from A. Sujin: But people may have misunderstandings, we have to put her words in the right context. Of course you can decide at what time to get up, etc. and also you can cultivate the right conditions for all kinds of kusala. Knowing about these conditions surely helps us to develop kusala. But we should remember:we are not the owner of the nama and rupa that occur in our life. Ph: Does anyone else have thoughts on the potential value of taking > occasional breaks. What is that yonisomething and how rare > is its arising? N: yoniso manasikara: wise attention. When the citta is kusala there is already wise attention. In many suttas the Buddha spoke about unwise attention to visible object, sound etc. and wise attention. He exhorted us to have awareness and right understanding when visible object, sound, etc. appear through the relevant doorways. There is more often unwise attention than wise attention, but realizing this is a beginning of the cure. I think everyone can find opportunity for reflection, the kitchen is very good! For you the cushion, and that is fine. B.T.W. I like the points you brought up with my Brahma viharas. I like to elaborate on them when I have time. Do so again, it all concerns practice, application.We can never talk enough about that. Nina. 33704 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:04am Subject: Brahma viharas, 3 Brahma viharas, 3 We read in A. Sujin¹s Perfections: When we cling to the importance of self there is conceit, the citta is rigid, not gentle, and there cannot be metta at the same time. When conceit arises it accompanies the citta rooted in attachment. When we attach importance to what others think about us, there is conceit. When we expect kind words from them but they do not speak kindly, we are disappointed and we have aversion. Then we can see that conceit conditions annoyance and aversion. Through satipatthana we learn that life truly exists in one moment. When there are conditions for metta it arises, but it cannot last. There are bound to be many akusala cittas in between the moments of kusala cittas. Lodewijk remarked that when he considers that he has countless akusala cittas he becomes oppressed. I explained to him that it is pañña, understanding, that realizes kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala. At the moment of understanding there cannot be aversion or oppression at the same time. We cannot expect a radical change in character when we begin to develop satipatthana, but we should be happy and grateful to the Buddha for teaching us the way to see realities as they are. We learn that it is dukkha to be in the cycle of birth and death, and that clinging is the cause of dukkha. However, we should not forget that there is a Way leading to the end of dukkha, and we can begin to develop it with courage and gladness. Lodewijk stressed the importance of good and noble friendship, association with the right persons. We spoke about A. Sujin and our friends in Thailand, who give us good examples of the application of satipatthana in daily life. It is inspiring to associate with friends who strive after the same goal, the development of right understanding leading to the eradication of defilements. When we are in their company, we have the assurance that we are with true friends whom we can trust and that we cannot come to any harm. ***** Nina 33705 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:04am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 1 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 1 Listening. The development of right understanding of dhammas that appear in our life begins with listening. During the Dhamma sessions in the Foundation building with my English speaking friends as well as with my Thai friends there were many opportunities for listening. Moreover, Acharn Sujin¹s lectures are broadcasted every day and many people listen to them early in the morning and in the evening. When we listen, we hear what is new to us and also what we heard before but had not yet completely understood. We should carefully consider what we hear so that it goes into our bones. Listening, considering and studying the Dhamma is kusala kamma included in mental development, bhåvanå. We read in the Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², the Sumangalavilåsiní, about the Buddha¹s daily routine. After his breakfast the layfollowers who had offered food would come to see him. The Buddha, with great compassion and due consideration for their different dispositions, would teach them Dhamma so that they would become established in the three refuges and in síla or even attain enlightenment. Life is short and we should not miss any opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and carefully consider what we heard. The opportunities to hear the true Dhamma are rare. In some lives there may be no opportunity. We read in the ³Middle Length Sayings² (II, no 81, Discourse on Ghatikåra) that at the time of the Buddha Kassapa the potter Ghatikåra tried to persuade his friend Jotipåla to visit the Buddha, but that Jotipåla reviled and abused the Buddha. It is explained in ³Milinda¹s Questions² (Dilemmas V, no 6) that the Buddha, when he was in a past life Jotipåla, was born into a family of worshippers of Brahmå, without confidence in the Buddha Kassapa. A simile is used of a great blazing fire that when it is in contact with water becomes cool and black. We read that Nagasena explained to King Milinda: ³Even so, sire, (though) the brahman youth Jotipåla had wisdom and faith and was widely renowned for his knowledge, yet when he came back to birth in a family that was of little faith, not believing, then did he, in the manner of his family, being blind, revile and abuse the Tathågata.² We read in the Sutta that finally the potter Ghatikåra took hold of Jotipåla by his hair and brought him to the Buddha. Jotipåla listened to the Buddha, gained confidence in him and received ordination in his presence. Acharn Sujin said, ³Listening helps to understand conditions. No matter where we are or where we go, each moment is conditioned. Also listening, considering and understanding are conditioned.² The Bodhisatta Jotipåla had in many previous lives listened to former Buddhas and developed understanding. His accumulated perfections were like a bright fire, but when he was born in a family with worshippers of Brahma, this bright fire was temporarily reduced to black coal. When he met the Buddha Kassapa the development of understanding in his past lives were the right conditions for him to gain confidence in the Dhamma. *** Nina 33706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Dear Agrios, I try to answer, see below. op 06-06-2004 15:08 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > would you please give me some hint on why do mind-consciousness-element > (mano) has to have physical base_foundation and can not be based in other > five_consciousness_elements? N: I think you mean, why not based on the other senses? Seeing has its own base, the eyesense, and so on for the other sense-cognitions. Mind-element (the five-door adverting-consciousness and two types of receiving-consciousness) and mind-consciousness-element need another base, not the sense-bases. This is called heart-base, but you can call it by any name. > >A: If Acariya Buddhaghosa was a commentator, which exactly texts was he > commenting on here? N: The Visuddhimagga was an encyclopedia of Buddhism he has written, editing the oldest commentaries he found at the Great Monastery. He has many quotes from the Suttanta and Abhidhamma. > A: I can't see this heartbase, thats the problem you see.. and I don't know an= > > ybody > who does and could point it to me. N: Right. Visible object is the only rupa that can be seen, all the others are invisible. We cannot point at the heartbase, it is infinitesimally small and it arises and falls away within split seconds. It is a subtle rupa that can be realized through the mind-door by some who have developed samatha or vipassana. We cannot say it is impossible to realize it, it depends on conditions whether it appears. > A: I understand it this way: > An Eye is a concept the same way khandas are. N: Eyesense is rupa, not paññatti, concept. Khandha is a name designating realities. They arise and fall away, as is said, also in the Suttanta: past present, future. A concept cannot arise and fall away. A: An eye sense is rather easy > to spot it is placed in the eyeball as a sensitive nervous cell. It's fleshy and has > all the four basic rupas to it. N: Eyesense itself is the tiniest rupa you cannot point to. do not mix it with the eye of the flesh or with nerves. Medical terms are of no help here. Eyesense rupa is accompanied by the four great elements and five more rupas. A: Visible rupa hits it, it register hit and contact is > established triggering an avalanche of mental effects. N: the eye-door process cittas begin. A: The heart base plainly do not exist or nobody can point it to me. N: If we cannot experience it now, can we say, it is not real? Can we experience everything that is real? A: Is U. Narada giving any hint on why he think so? N: his great knowledge of the Abhidhamma, the Book on the conditional relations, the Patthana. Buddhaghosa wrote most of the Commentaries to Suttas, to the Books of the Abhidhamma. There are also subcommentaries of a later date , for example, by Dhammapala. He wrote the Co to the Vis., subco or Tiika. This I am translating in part weekly. There is no English text, except some footnotes by the translators of the Vis. Nina. 33707 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 032 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The first 4 cittas of 89 cittas are all somanassa cittas. Next 4 cittas are all the same in serial number with the first 4 cittas with the exception of equanimous feeling or upekkha vedana. The 5th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is 'upekkha sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta'. Upekkha here means equanimous feeling. Upekkha comprises 'upa' and 'ekkha'. Ekkha means 'feeling' while 'upa' means non-extreme, in the middle, flexible, in balance. Upekkha means balanced feeling of n?t pleasant and not unpleasant. This citta can be seen in case of a child receiving things which are not very attractive for him but they draw his attention and cause greediness. This citta arise in greediness of mental impulse in 7 successive arising of javana citta. As the object is not very attractive, it does not cause happiness and causes just equanimous feeling. As he is just a child and not mature to know any kamma or its implication, there arises wrong view. So there is ditthi cetasika arising along with this lobha citta. He receives things and his greediness does not need to be prompted. So it is asankharika citta. The 6th citta of 89 cittas is 'upekkha sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam sasankharika citta.' In this citta, there needs promptness. A man comes and gives things to one of 2 children. Only after taken, the man realises that he gave to the wrong child and he amends. Sorry Paul. These are not for you. These are for John. As soon as he hears this, John becomes greedy and his mental impulse runs on those things brought by that man. Things are not very attractive and there is just equanimous feeling. So it is upekkha citta. As a child without maturity, there arises ditthi or wrong view. SO it is ditthigata sampayutta citta. His greediness needs promptedness by his own will or by the speech of the man. So it is sasankharika citta. Both 5th and 6th cittas can arise in adults if they have wrong view and their feeling at that time is equanimous feeling. The 7th citta of 89 cittas is 'upekkha sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam asankharika citta'. This is the citta that may arises in case of a well learned man who just receives ordinary daily materials which are not of his urgent need or which are not of his favourite. So in this, his feeling is just equanimous and there is no ditthi or wrong view and his greediness does not need to be prompted. The 8th citta of 89 cittas is 'upekkha sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam sasankharika citta'. This citta is much the same with the 7th citta but with the exception of requirement of promptedness. A well learned man receives a packet which is not very attractive for him. When he opens it there comes out something and still unattractive for him but still it has some usefulness. He does not have happiness and he is just indifferent to this thing. So there is upekkha. There is no wrong view. As he is not interested in that he needs some promptedness. As things are still useful, he become a bit greedy and mental impulse arises as javana. This lobha citta is sasankharika citta. There are 8 lobha mula cittas and they have been described to some extent. In any life, after patisandhi citta, there follow uncountable bhavanga cittas or life continuum. But when there happens that vithi cittas have a chance to arise early in a life, the very first vithi citta will be one of avajjana citta. After some moments, there follow 7 successive javana cittas. These cittas are the very first kammapatha cittas in that life and they will be one of these 8 lobha mula cittas. 8 lobha mula cittas are 1.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta 2.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam sasankharika citta 3.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam asankharika citta 4.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vipayuttam sasankharika citta 5.upekkha sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta 6.upekkha sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam sasankharika citta 7.upekkha sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam asankharika citta 8.upekkha sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam sasankharika citta By reviewing these 8 cittas, there can be seen that associated cetasikas have many effects on citta, which originally is to know the object but as somanassa or piti cetasika, ditthi cetasika, thina cetasika or sloth, middha cetasika or torpor, all influence on citta and citta has different names here as 8 lobha mula cittas. Presence or absence of piti, lobha cittas separate into 2 groups. Presence or absence of ditthi, each of the groups become divided into ditthigata sampayutta and vippayutta groups. Again these 4 separate groups fall into another 2 separate categories called asankharika and sasankharika. So even though this is lobha citta according to accompanying cetasikas there are 8 separate lobha cittas in terms of their each character. Again there are many lobha citta countless in a single satta panatta and again there are many lobha citta as bahiddha dhamma. And bhumiwise, still there are enormous amount of lobha cittas which are never possible to be counted. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33708 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Agrios, > I try to answer, see below. > op 06-06-2004 15:08 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > Hi Nina, please allow me to take this opportunity to thank you for all your great books and translations. I am thrilled to have opportunity to ask you questions on Dhamma. > > would you please give me some hint on why do mind-consciousness-element > > (mano) has to have physical base_foundation and can not be based in other > > five_consciousness_elements? > N: I think you mean, why not based on the other senses? Seeing has its own > base, the eyesense, and so on for the other sense-cognitions. Mind-element > (the five-door adverting-consciousness and two types of > receiving-consciousness) and mind-consciousness-element need another base, > not the sense-bases. This is called heart-base, but you can call it by any > name. I know this from your books Nina. I am asking why mind-consciousness needs rupa base. What's the reason, why is it necessary ? Wouldn't base of five other senses be sufficient? Please see also Howard's question: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33668 > >A: If Acariya Buddhaghosa was a commentator, which exactly texts was he > > commenting on here? > N: The Visuddhimagga was an encyclopedia of Buddhism he has written, editing > the oldest commentaries he found at the Great Monastery. He has many quotes > from the Suttanta and Abhidhamma. It's unknown text, but clearly written by Buddhist monk. And is not commentary nor it is translation. New book has been written by him. Right? > A: I can't see this heartbase, thats the problem you see.. and I don't know > anybody > > who does and could point it to me. > N: Right. Visible object is the only rupa that can be seen, all the others > are invisible. We cannot point at the heartbase, it is infinitesimally small > and it arises and falls away within split seconds. I did corrected my question in the following post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33663 > It is a subtle rupa that can be realized through the mind-door by some who > have developed samatha or vipassana. We cannot say it is impossible to > realize it, it depends on conditions whether it appears. One can think about it, I know that. The problem is, I can't realize it and all this alleged rupas just plainly do not present themselves at all. Outside of thinking, there is plain and quiet absence of them. Absence of form whatsoever. This is my only reason to follow this idea of their supposed existence. Whole theory of them, sounds like really bad chemistry, like some speculation which never, never can be realized as it is just plain concept of archaic origins. > A: I understand it this way: > > An Eye is a concept the same way khandas are. > N: Eyesense is rupa, not pannatti, concept. Khandha is a name designating > realities. They arise and fall away, as is said, also in the Suttanta: past > present, future. A concept cannot arise and fall away. > A: An eye sense is rather easy > > to spot it is placed in the eyeball as a sensitive nervous cell. It's fleshy > and has > > all the four basic rupas to it. > N: Eyesense itself is the tiniest rupa you cannot point to. do not mix it > with the eye of the flesh or with nerves. Medical terms are of no help here. > Eyesense rupa is accompanied by the four great elements and five more rupas. And this is something one can realize, or has to learn how to think about it? Are there actual monks who has realized this? > A: Visible rupa hits it, it register hit and contact is > > established triggering an avalanche of mental effects. > N: the eye-door process cittas begin. > A: The heart base plainly do not exist or nobody can point it to me. > N: If we cannot experience it now, can we say, it is not real? Can we > experience everything that is real? I had to ask. If somebody realized rupa, I will try to meet him and ask him to help me. But I've never meet someone like this. I am trying to see if Rob, Sarah or you would help me. > Nina. Metta, Agrios 33709 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt. 3 Does break from DSG give more time for reflectio Dear Sarah, You have such a beneficial way of explaining things, I feel like quoting the whole post, but I won't, for space's sake. The passage on Right Speech, "pleasant..affectionate.." etc. makes me think twice about my rather intense tone in my last [long] post on meditation and beneficial "practice." Just to notice that and register it, not to dwell on it... Taken away from the meditation debate, and in the context of planning to "post or not to post" and how conditions will ultimately dictate what will take place, gives a good simple example for contemplation. Thanks for that, as well as the very interesting quotes from K. Sujin. I just happened to see the title of this post and was attracted to it, and it turned out to be a very beneficial one. There go those sneaky arising conditions again! Much appreciated. Best, Robert Ep. ====================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Phil & All, > > --- Philip wrote: > > > Does anyone else have thoughts on the potential value of taking > > occasional breaks from discussion when reflecting on suttas or other > > teachings? > .... > S: I?d say no rule at all, otherwise it?s like we?re trying to plan a > course of action again, rather than understanding conditions and anatta. > As Rob said, there can be awareness and understanding anytime. As you?ve > found before, we may plan to take a break and end up posting or vice > versa. I was intending to write on Friday, but my old arm problem was > playing up and I couldn?t. Anything can happen by conditions and in the > end there are just rapidly changing namas and rupas. > > A friend mentioned off-list that perhaps it?s better not to write or speak > unless one can be sure all the conditions of good speech are present -- so > I'd like to include one or two comments on this here as well -- i.e > > ?It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken > affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of > good-will.? AN V.198 > **** 33710 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:17pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > Thank you for your kind words, I too am enjoying our conversation > and I will never tire of the topic ? `formal practice.' (Groans all > round.) :-) Dear Ken, I appreciate your clearly written and responsive post. I will also give a more detailed response hopefully in the near future [conditions allowing. : ) ] In the meantime, I have one question which I hope has an easy answer: Where in the body of Sutta is the fourth factor of "practice in accordance with the Dhammma" defined as "satipatthana" and satipatthana only? To me this is a crucial pivot in our discussion. You dismiss formal meditation as qualifying as such a practice based on your contention that it is not mentioned as being a right practice in the body of the Dhamma. I do not agree with this, since my interpretation of the satipatthana sutta leads me to believe that it is clearly defined as a correct practice, but I would like to see any specific citations you have for your side of the argument. Is there a place in the words of the Buddha himself, as expressed int he body of Sutta, where he expressly states that "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" = "satipatthana" and that pragmatic practices that lead to understanding are excluded? i would very much like to see such a passage to read it for myself. Best, Robert Ep. ================================ 33711 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 4:18pm Subject: Re: Brahma viharas, no 2 Hello Nina, and all N: > We read in the ³Atthasålin?E² about the four brahmavihåras ((Book I, Part V, > Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) : > ³...love (mett?E has the characteristic of being a procedure of modes of > beneficence; the function or property of bringing good; the manifestation or > effect of taking hatred away; the proximate cause of seeing the lovableness > of beings. Its consummation (success) is the quieting of ill-will; its > failure is the production of lust. Ph: Re the "proximate cause" - this is something I've wanted to ask about. It is the factor that most directly conditions the following factor? There is metta, and then (almost) immediately afterwards there is wisdom that sees the lovableness? "Proximate" meaning very close in the chain of cittas? And what is the term for more removed factors. "Aproximate?" "Distant?" "Lovableness" is a word I find myself using a lot these days. Recently I found a sutta that describes people like dogs tied to a post, going from one factor to the next, in a kind of subjugated state. (I forget the details - I know it comes up in my talk with Rob K, so I'll remember then.) I found this sutta reminded me of the friendly feeling I have for people, including myself. We have these noble self-images, or less noble ones, and then they are swept away as conditions move us about. When people are unkind, it is not their fault. When people are kind, they are not responsible. Seeing people as dogs tethered to a pole might not seem very charitable, but I include myself in there and it gives me a feeling of friendliness rather than contempt or anything like that. (snip) N:> Htoo writes: from those whom we have helped by any means and in any way. As soon as > that kind of attachment arises, metta has already gone. Metta and attachment > do not stay together.> Ph: But metta can arise in a situation where attachment has arisen, right? I mean, when we see through to that attachment, a fairly basic form of right understanding can replace it with metta. The person we are with today will not be here tomorrow. That will be a different person, in the absolute sense, even subtly so, changed from today by conditions. This person is a shifting aggregate of mental and physical factors. Unwise to become attached, though we do and will. When I lay with Naomi in my arms, and we are feeling very tender towards each other, there is always these days the awareness not only that we will grow old and die, but also that I may be wanting to hurl a dish across the kitchen because of her within hours! (More about that later in the talk with Rob K) Does that take away the tenderness? No, it purifies it in some way. N: >> In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity, > tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very necessary for > all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, namely, > attachment and aversion. Ph: I am always thinking about equanimity, upekkha. It seems to me that it is the starting point of true practice of Brahma-viharas, based in whatever degree of understanding of the three characteristics of annata, annica and dukkha that we have. And it surprises me that it is always listed fourth in the Brahma-viharas. Perhaps it is listed last because in jhanas it is achieved at a higher/rarer jhana. However, it seems to me that it is where we should start. I remember very soon after I came to DSG I was talking about my temper outbursts when I was cycling, and I think I said that I sensed upekkha as a kind of protection, as though it were a force field that I developped on the cushion and took with me out into the world. As though I became untouchable by irritation with other people, because of upekkha I had developed. Sarah questioned this, and said something about right understanding being the key. And soon after that I came to see that right understanding - to the degree that one is capable - of the three characterstics are essential to understanding Brahma-viharas. That was a very helpful comment from Sarah, though I hope I'm not mis-paraphrasing her as I did with Jon! Metta, Phil 33712 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > I know this from your books Nina. I am asking why > mind-consciousness needs rupa base. What's the reason, why is it necessary ? > Wouldn't base of five other senses be sufficient? ===== Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of Abhidhamma lecture notes written by U Silananda and there is a section titled, "Reasons for Existence of Hadaya Vatthu" extracted from the commentary to the Visuddhimagga and the commentary to the Abhidhammathsangaha. I reproduce it below with my clarifications. US: Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu, when they arise in the Kama- sphere and Rupa-sphere, must depend on rupa (matter), just as cakkhu- vinnana and others depend on eye-sensitivity and others. RM: Mano-dhatu (mind-element) include the five-door-adverting citta and the two receiving cittas (one kusala vipaka, one akusala vipaka). Manovinnana-dhatu (mind-consciousness element) includes the remaining 76 cittas (not including the ten sense-consciousness cittas or the three mano-dhatu cittas). See p146 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma". U Silanda's use of the term "-sphere" is incorrect; it should be "-world" or "-plane". Spheres (vacara) and worlds / planes (loka) are related but distinct. See p30 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma". In this context, it is loka that is meant, not sphere. It is the nature of the loka that all cittas arising require a rupa as a base. It is the nature of the arupa-loka (immaterial plane) that cittas do not require a rupa as a base. US: That rupa [upon which Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu depend] cannot be the four Mahabhutas because they are depended upon by Upada rupas. Therefore, that rupa must be an Upada rupa. RM: The Mahabhuta rupas are the four great elements of solidity, cohesion, heat and motion (fuguratively referred to as earth, water, fire and wind). Each of the four Great Elements has the other three as its proximate cause. The four Great Elements arise together and condition one another. The remaining 24 rupas are called derived (upada) rupas because they depend upon the four great elements. The four elements arise in all rupa, even inanimate matter found outside the body. Since mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu do not arise outside the body, they must depend upon a derived rupa. US: Among the Upada rupas, they cannot depend upon cakkhu, etc. because they (cakkhu, etc.) are depended on by cakkhu-vinnana, etc.; neither can they depend on [visible object], [sound] and so on because they (visible object, sound and so on) can be found externally too. RM: U Silananda is eliminating potential candidates by noting that the sense-organs (pasada rupas) are inappropriate foundations as they already have their own specific type of consciousness to support. Visible object, sound, odour and flavour can be eliminated as they can arise external to the body. US: They cannot depend on [life faculty] because it has the specific function of protecting the conascent rupas; they cannot depend on the two qualities of sex either, because these dhatus [Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu] arise also in those [groupings of rupas] who have no sex qualities. They do not depend on [nutrition] for the same reason that it is found externally too. US: It should therefore, be understood that there must be some other rupa upon which these dhatus depend and that rupa must be a dependent one itself and not a Mahabhuta. And that dependent one which is the seat of these dhatus is none other than the Hadaya-vatthu. US: The reason why it is not mentioned in the Dhammasangani, where all rupas are mentioned, is that if it were mentioned there, the uniformity of presentation of the Vatthu-duka and Arammana-duka, so important for the understnding of the doctrine and the realization of truth by litteners, would be broken and thus defeat the very purpose of the doctrine - the realization of truth by listeners. RM: This point is expanded upon by Shwe Zan Aung in his PTS translation of the Abhidhammatthasanga on page 277: "The omission of hadayavatthu in the Dhammasangani is very significant to us Buddhists... we hold that the omission is not accidental. In view of the popular idea - i.e. of the cardiac theory of the seat of mental activity - prevailing in his time, the Buddha preferred to be silent on the point. He did not accept the theory, but if he had expounded his own theory, it would not have been acceptable to his hearers. But he reserved the question of the basis of consciousness for the philosophic teaching handed down in the Patthana. Even here, he was very careful not to commit himself to the cardiac theory, even by way of concession to the popular view. The Patthana doctrine is as follows... 'the eye is related to sight and its concommitant states by way of base' and so on for the other sense organs. But when he comes to mind (mano) the style is altered... 'that material thing on the basis of which apprehension and comprehension take place - that thing is related to both of them as well as to their concommitants by way of the relation of base.' It was quite easy here for the founder of Abhidhamma doctrine to have used the word 'heart' instead of 'that material thing' had be believed that heart was related to mind as its physical base. The commentators had to give a name to this and they wrote 'heart' in accordance with the popular theory. And they doubtless believed that they had commented accurately in so doing, since the Buddha himself had used 'hadaya' in his Discourses to express thought or mind. But to use the word thus for edifying exposition is very different from using the same in philosophical language to express 'basis of thought'. ===== > > > >A: If Acariya Buddhaghosa was a commentator, which exactly texts was he > > > commenting on here? > > N: The Visuddhimagga was an encyclopedia of Buddhism he has written, editing > > the oldest commentaries he found at the Great Monastery. He has many quotes > > from the Suttanta and Abhidhamma. > > It's unknown text, but clearly written by Buddhist monk. > And is not commentary nor it is translation. > New book has been written by him. > Right? ===== With the recent discussion of Buddhaghosa, I pulled from my bookcase a hard-cover book that I bought a few months back, but never had the time to read. It is "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" by Bimala Charan Law, with a foreward by Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys Davids. It is not very long (175 pages) because not much is known of Buddhaghosa himself (there are a few facts in the Mahavamsa, Chronicles of Ceylon, but the Buddhaghosuppatti was written about 800 years later and therefore is full of legends rather than accurate facts). According to this book, Buddhaghosa was born as a brahmin in a village close to the great bodhi-tree under which the Buddha attained enlightenment. His father was the king's tutor and also taught Buddhaghosa at the same time. Buddhaghosa was an expert in the Vedas (his later works demonstrate this expertise) and defeated everyone in debates. Along came a great Buddhist monk (Revata) who was Buddhaghosa's equal in understanding of the Vedas. After impressing Buddhaghosa with his knowledge of the Vedas, Revata said, "I have shown to you that I understand your philosophy. Now I will ask you one question to see if you can answer" Revata asked a question which stumped Buddhaghosa. Revata then provided the answer based on the Abhidhamma (it was taken from the cittayamaka regarding kusala, akusala and functional cittas). Buddhaghosa realized that the Abhidhamma was superior to the Vedas and converted to Buddhism. Revata told Buddhaghosa to go to Ceylon to translate the accumulated commentaries collected over the centuries, many of them dating back to the time of the Buddha based on conversations recorded between monks who were directly associated with the Buddha. Buddhaghosa was to translate these commentaries from Sinhalese into Magadhi (Pali). Buddhaghosa arrived at the main temple while a discussion was ensuing regarding some knotty point in the dhamma. The Sangharaja went to their rooms to think over the point and while they were gone, Buddhaghosa wrote the answer on a blackboard (shades of the film "Good Will Hunting"). The Sangharaja came back and were amazed. To prove that he was worthy of compiling the commentaries, the Sangharaja asked Buddhaghosa to write an essay on the following stanza uttered by the Buddha in reference to the three Pitakas, "Who is that person who being wise and established in the precepts, and having cultured his thoughts and wisdom, being ardent and skilful, can unravel this knot?" In reply, that afternoon, Buddhaghosa wrote the Visuddhimagga. After writing the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa took a nap. While he was napping, Sakka the king of the gods, stole the book. Buddhaghosa awoke, realized that the book was missing and wrote it out again. Sakka stole the book a second time so Buddhaghosa had to write out the Visuddhimagga a third time. In translation, my Visuddhimagga runs to 875 pages. To think that he wrote it out three times in one afternoon and one night seems far fetched (but this is the stuff that legends are made of). After Buddhaghosa had written out the book for a third time, Sakka took pity and gave back the two earlier versions. Buddhaghosa presented all three copies to the Sangharaja who were amazed that all three copies were absolutely identical. Needless to say, Buddhaghosa got the job to compile the commentaries. The commentaries compiled by Buddhaghosa cover all three of the Pitaka, Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma. They are remarkably consistent and mutually supportive; for example, portions of the Visuddhimagga appear in the Atthasalini, the commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani). In the commentaries, Buddhaghosa mentioned very few primary sources; exceptions being Milindapana and Upatissa's Vimuttimaggga (Path to Freedom). When Buddhaghosa inserted his own opinions, he took care to demarcate them as such (as in his discussion on carita). According to legend, when Buddhaghosa died, he was reborn in Tusita heaven (i.e. he was not an Arahant). Metta, Rob M :-) 33713 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 7:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hello RobM, and all, You may be interested in some additional information contained in this excerpt from a post by RobK on Triplegem: Questioner: "> If the Venerable Buddhagosa was an arahat then why did he at the >end of the Visuddhi Magga make a sincere wish to be reborn at the time of >the final fading away of the Buddha sassana? =================================================== RobK: That paragraph at the end of the Visuddimagga is only in the Singhalese edition - not the Thai or Burmese. It was probably added by a scribe who undertook the long task of copying it onto palm-leaf. An estimation of Buddhaghosa is given in the previous paragraph: "the elder who is adorned with faith, wisdom and energy..an ornament in the lineage of the elders who dwell in the Great monastery and who are shining lights in the lineage of elders with unblemished enlightenment in the superhuman states that are embellished with the special qualities of the six kinds of direct knowledgeand the categories of discrimination, [I.e. arahats]who has abundant purified wit, who bears the name Buddhaghosa."" There was a small booklet published in Burma about 500 years ago (One thousand years after Buddhaghosa) that suggested he was not an arahant and was born in Tavitimsa deva world, but this is a late work and has several inaccuracies." ================= http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem/message/5177 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > >>>snipped for brevity<<< > With the recent discussion of Buddhaghosa, I pulled from my bookcase > a hard-cover book that I bought a few months back, but never had the > time to read. It is "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" by Bimala > Charan Law, with a foreward by Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys Davids. It is not > very long (175 pages) because not much is known of Buddhaghosa > himself (there are a few facts in the Mahavamsa, Chronicles of > Ceylon, but the Buddhaghosuppatti was written about 800 years later > and therefore is full of legends rather than accurate facts). > > According to this book, Buddhaghosa was born as a brahmin in a > village close to the great bodhi-tree under which the Buddha attained > enlightenment. His father was the king's tutor and also taught > Buddhaghosa at the same time. Buddhaghosa was an expert in the Vedas > (his later works demonstrate this expertise) and defeated everyone in > debates. Along came a great Buddhist monk (Revata) who was > Buddhaghosa's equal in understanding of the Vedas. After impressing > Buddhaghosa with his knowledge of the Vedas, Revata said, "I have > shown to you that I understand your philosophy. Now I will ask you > one question to see if you can answer" Revata asked a question which > stumped Buddhaghosa. Revata then provided the answer based on the > Abhidhamma (it was taken from the cittayamaka regarding kusala, > akusala and functional cittas). Buddhaghosa realized that the > Abhidhamma was superior to the Vedas and converted to Buddhism. > Revata told Buddhaghosa to go to Ceylon to translate the accumulated > commentaries collected over the centuries, many of them dating back > to the time of the Buddha based on conversations recorded between > monks who were directly associated with the Buddha. Buddhaghosa was > to translate these commentaries from Sinhalese into Magadhi (Pali). > Buddhaghosa arrived at the main temple while a discussion was ensuing > regarding some knotty point in the dhamma. The Sangharaja went to > their rooms to think over the point and while they were gone, > Buddhaghosa wrote the answer on a blackboard (shades of the > film "Good Will Hunting"). The Sangharaja came back and were amazed. > To prove that he was worthy of compiling the commentaries, the > Sangharaja asked Buddhaghosa to write an essay on the following > stanza uttered by the Buddha in reference to the three Pitakas, "Who > is that person who being wise and established in the precepts, and > having cultured his thoughts and wisdom, being ardent and skilful, > can unravel this knot?" In reply, that afternoon, Buddhaghosa wrote > the Visuddhimagga. After writing the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa took > a nap. While he was napping, Sakka the king of the gods, stole the > book. Buddhaghosa awoke, realized that the book was missing and wrote > it out again. Sakka stole the book a second time so Buddhaghosa had > to write out the Visuddhimagga a third time. In translation, my > Visuddhimagga runs to 875 pages. To think that he wrote it out three > times in one afternoon and one night seems far fetched (but this is > the stuff that legends are made of). After Buddhaghosa had written > out the book for a third time, Sakka took pity and gave back the two > earlier versions. Buddhaghosa presented all three copies to the > Sangharaja who were amazed that all three copies were absolutely > identical. Needless to say, Buddhaghosa got the job to compile the > commentaries. The commentaries compiled by Buddhaghosa cover all > three of the Pitaka, Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma. They are > remarkably consistent and mutually supportive; for example, portions > of the Visuddhimagga appear in the Atthasalini, the commentary to the > first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani). In the > commentaries, Buddhaghosa mentioned very few primary sources; > exceptions being Milindapana and Upatissa's Vimuttimaggga (Path to > Freedom). When Buddhaghosa inserted his own opinions, he took care to > demarcate them as such (as in his discussion on carita). According to > legend, when Buddhaghosa died, he was reborn in Tusita heaven (i.e. > he was not an Arahant). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33714 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Rob M, op 07-06-2004 15:08 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > What is not logical and reasonable (at least to me) is that this rupa > is associated with the physical heart. At the time of the patisandhi > citta there is no physical heart. I still feel more comfortable > sticking with the wording of the Patthana, "that matter in dependence > on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur" > rather than introducing the physical heart into the discussion. N: I agree with the Patthana. We do not have to think of the heart itself, it is said the base is in the blood near the heart, or somewhere near the heart. Exact location not important. This solves the query about rebirth: three decads: heartbase, bodysense, sex. There is no heart yet, no bodysense yet, they have to develop. But, there are those tiny, tiny rupas which have these names. Kamma produced them from the first moment of life on. Until it is time to die. Nina. 33715 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Brahma viharas Hi Steve, op 07-06-2004 10:33 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > Nina wrote: >> In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity, >> tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very > necessary for >> all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, > namely, >> attachment and aversion. > > Is every arising of kusala citta, with accompanying cetasika > tatramajjhattata, also a moment of developing the perfection upekkha > and at the same time a dwelling in the Brahma-Vihara Upekkha? N: No. Different aspects. The Brahma-Vihara Upekkha is the cetasika tatramajjhattata, but it is directed towards living beings. You see that you cannot do anything further for them, but that they have to receive the result of kamma. That helps not to have aversion about their plight. I shall say more about this subject. Nina. 33716 From: connie Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 9:09pm Subject: Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa Dear Agrios, RobM and Nina, As to eye sense, we can read and read that 'the physical eye does not see' but something that made that clearer to me was a show the other night where a child who was born without ears couldn't hear anything of the outside world (but only himself they said) until he was fitted with a special kind of hearing aid that set up vibrations in the bones of his head. He still didn't have normal physical ears, but the way I understood it, he could hear when he wore the device because the the hearing rupa/ear(door) could arise when there was contact with the sound(waves) from the bones. I'm afraid that doesn't help me understand the heart-base as having any set 'home', though. peace, connie ==== > An Eye is a concept the same way khandas are. N: Eyesense is rupa, not paññatti, concept. Khandha is a name designating realities. They arise and fall away, as is said, also in the Suttanta: past present, future. A concept cannot arise and fall away. A: An eye sense is rather easy > to spot it is placed in the eyeball as a sensitive nervous cell. It's fleshy and has > all the four basic rupas to it. N: Eyesense itself is the tiniest rupa you cannot point to. do not mix it with the eye of the flesh or with nerves. Medical terms are of no help here. Eyesense rupa is accompanied by the four great elements and five more rupas. 33717 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Hi Howard, Butting in here... --- upasaka@a... wrote: >My "eye" has been seeing discomfort with > regard > to concentration and volition for quite a while. Of course my view could > be > jaundiced. .... S: Certainly my ‘eye’ hasn’t seen any ‘discomfort’ (let alone any ‘scare the bejesus’ on account of these factors or comments by you or others on them. Of course, I may have been missing something (!!), but speaking for this household (I’d better not speak for the list;-)), I’d say your view is pretty jaundiced here;-). Seriously, some of the best discussions on DSG have been with you on these very ‘phenomena’ and also on effort, concepts and realities and many other related topics. So please don’t rest until satisfied. You have our deepest respect in this regard and I do know others feel the same. I know Nina also appreciates it a lot when you add comments on the Vism or other threads. I’m sure you also often want to say ‘There he/she goes again!’ when we speak too;-). Metta, Sarah ======= 33718 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) Dear Htoo, Like last time,i’m going to make cryptic comments on a number of your great posts here. You’re a very prolific writer, so I apologise in advance for just jumbling a few random comments together here. First, I think it’s really helpful to work through all the cittas as you are doing. --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Lobha cittas are cittas that arise most of the time. People are > filled with moha cittas nearly all the time with a few exception. As > moha cittas are heard to see, let us see dosa cittas and lobha > cittas. Dosa cittas can easily be recognised in our own mind. So do > lobha cittas. .... S: I’m not sure we can say this. As you say, they are arising most the time. Whilst the grosser forms may easily be recognised, what about the very common subtler forms arising even now as we speak? .... > > We are most of the time in lobha cittas or otherwise in dosa cittas > if we are not specifically practising dhamma in some way. .... S: I’m not quite sure what this last sentence means. cittas are so fast, that even now while we’re discussing dhamma, there are bound to be moments of kusala and akusala. It always comes back to the citta, I think. ... <.....> > In our daily life, when we are heavily attached to something and we > feel happy then we are in lobha cittas associated with joy or piti > and this is called samanassa as explained in the previous post. .... S: I’m not sure there has to be ‘heavily attached’ for somanassa to arise with the citta? Again, I think it can be quite subtle, like now when we look at the computer screen there can be a little lobha and a little pleasant feeling.... ... >This > first lobha citta is associated with ditthi or wrong view. This can > happen in all ordinary people or beings. > > If someone does not believe kamma and its implication then that lobha > citta is said to be associated with ditthi cetasika. .... S: Perhaps we should make it clear that when there is no view, such as looking at the computer screen without any thought either way about kamma or the practice, then there is no wrong view. Only when there is the wrong view arising, is it this type of citta you’re describing. .... <...> > When a young child is having a sweet food, he or she feels happy > eating that food. He is happy eating that food, so there is > somanassa. He will not know kamma and its implication and there will > be ditthi associated with that citta. ... S: I would say this is just an example of lobha with somanassa, but no ditthi at that moment because there is no (wrong)thought about the path or way or kamma. Ignorance, yes. .... <...> > As > soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma. > That kamma may give rise to patisandhi cittas. .... S: Like Nina suggested, I think we have to be careful to distinguish between kilesa (defilements) arising and accumulating and kamma-patha, courses of action likely to bring results. Not all lobha cittas are kamma-patha. In (026) you also wrote that ‘kusala cittas and akusala cittas are cittas that have kamma-producing power and they are called kammapatha cittas. I think we need to restrict this term to the 10 wholesome and unwholesome courses of action. (See Nyantiloka dict under kamma-patha).In (032) you also wrote that the first javana cittas in life are ‘the very first kammapatha cittas in that life’, but again, I’m not sure we can say. ..... In the same message, you wrote: ‘With the exception of 2 cittas called pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta, all kiriya cittas arise in arahats.’ Why these exceptions?? .... S: In (032), again I’d like to question a comment on the citta with wrong view in the child who does not know about kamma when lobha arises. I’d say, it depends. Just because there is no knowledge of the dhamma doesn’t mean there is always ditthi arising with lobha. What do you think? When there is upekkha with lobha, may be better to translate it as ‘indifferent feeling’ rather than ‘equanimous feeling’ so as not to confuse it with the wholesome factor of equanimity (tatramajjhattata), but this is a minor comment;-). I have a couple of comments I might add on your other series. I look forward to your feedback as usual, Htoo. I learn a lot from your series and your posts help me question my limited understanding of these details. Anumodana and I’m glad conditions encouraged you to keep posting;-). Metta, Sarah ====== 33719 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 ) Dear Htoo, --- Htoo Naing wrote: >Some of members may have > been on the Path that is Noble Eightfold Path while others are just > approaching. ... S: To be honest, I’m not sure what this means. As I understand, the Eightfold (or rather Fivefold usually) Path refers to the mental factors you elaborate which arise together with moments of satipatthana. the Noble Eightfold Path factors only arise with the lokuttara cittas which have nibbana as object. Are we on the same path here?? .... <...> > Right view in a single moment is the act of pannindriya cetasika or > panna or wisdom that associated with citta while viewing things. What is > the right view? It looks at and understands that there are sufferings > and knows what are suffering. If sufferings are not understood, then > there is no right view. ... S: I agree with this, except perhaps we should stress that it has to develop. As you said earlier ‘right view to start with is easy to say’. Before there can be any real understanding of dukkha, I think namas and rupas have to be understood clearly. Do you agree? .... <...> > And right view knows that there is a unique and single Path leading to > cessation of all sufferings. When the existence of this single Path is > not understood, there will not be right view. The belief that takes a > path other than Noble Eightfold Path can lead to cessation of sufferings > is not a right view. ... S: Excellent! .... > > We have passed on this several times and we now have the right view. > Having right view leads us to right thinking or right resolve. As our > view is right, all thoughts associated with right view will become right > thought. ... S: Perhaps we should stress that right thought (sammaa sankappa)always arises with right view, so it’s not a matter of one first and then another. Also, I think we need to stress that this is nothing to do with thinking and thoughts as we are used to these terms. It is vitakka cetasika (which accompanies most cittas) and directs (in this case ‘rightly’ the citta onto the object which right view understands. It leads the citta and without it, the other factors such as right view couldn’t perform their functions. I realise you’re trying to keep this series fairly straight forward and I’m not suggesting it should be so complicated as I may be making it;-). In (04) you go onto say that having developed right thoughts ‘our actions will become right actions’. Again, I’d add similar comments with regard to the virati (abstaining) cetasikas of right speech, action and livelihood, one of which may arise with the mundane cittas naturally when there is right view arising. So I also have a question mark about the last para in (04) about waking up, having right thoughts which ‘will dictate all our actions though out the day and night until we go into deep sleep’, because I’m not sure it squares with what you are teaching from an Abhidhamma understanding about rapidly changing cittas and moments. Please accept any comments I make as a token of my respect for all your writing and sharing Htoo. I look forward to any further discussion on these or other points. Metta, Sarah p.s You’ve asked me before to mention when there are posts addressed to you, as others have too. I’m sorry, I usually forget and of course would like to encourage you to read all posts and answer any questions or add comments on other threads too if you’re inclined;-) ================== 33720 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 3:07am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep, I am the wrong person to ask for references. One day, when I have organised my computer, they will be at my fingertips. But I have been talking about that day for years. :-) ---------------------- R: > . . . I have one question which I hope has an easy answer: Where in the body of Sutta is the fourth factor of "practice in accordance with the Dhammma" defined as "satipatthana" and satipatthana only? > --------------------------- I like to think that the whole of the Buddha's teaching can be `defined as satipatthana and satipatthana only.' Even, for example, where he teaches the three factors that condition satipatthana, it is satipatthana itself that is being taught. I am thinking of a sutta (no reference of course, but Christine has quoted it once or twice) in which a group of merchants ask the Buddha how they can organise their lives in a way that will lead to progress on the Path. The Buddha tells them their attitude should be; "As to the teaching of the Tathagata -- profound, deep in meaning, concerned with anatta -- from time to time will spend our days learning it." At first glance, this sutta is saying, "once the required intellectual understanding has been established, satipatthana can arise at any time – for example, while a merchant is conducting his daily business." But at an even deeper level, the sutta provides insight, here and now, into conditioned reality: Putting aside concepts of living beings carrying out conventional activities at some time in the future, we can see how the present moment is conditioned. If the present moment is one of satipatthana, then it was conditioned by at least three of the four factors for enlightenment (association with the wise, hearing the Dhamma, considering the Dhamma). If the present moment is not satipatthana, then it was conditioned by something other than those factors. ------------------------- R: > To me this is a crucial pivot in our discussion. You dismiss formal meditation as qualifying as such a practice based on your contention that it is not mentioned as being a right practice in the body of the Dhamma. > ----------------------------- In the first place, it is not mentioned, in the second place it is not necessarily implied, and, in the third place, it is inconsistent with the Tipitaka as a whole. -------------------------- R: > I do not agree with this, since my interpretation of the satipatthana sutta leads me to believe that it is clearly defined as a correct practice, but I would like to see any specific citations you have for your side of the argument. ------------------------------ Assuming, for now, that I can't find any, let's look at the specific citations on your side. Do they include the Satipatthana- sutta's, "a monk, when he is walking, knows that he is walking?" The commentaries hasten to remind us that this level of knowing (which we share with dogs and jackals) is not satipatthana. Are there other citations? It would be a pity to base your practice on just one line from the entire Tipitaka. -------------------- R: > i would very much like to see such a passage to read it for myself. --------------------- In the meantime, you have work to be doing: ------------ > "I will also give a more detailed response hopefully in the near future [conditions allowing. : ) ] > ------------------- :-) but there is no hurry, and I have quite a few responses to catch up on as well. Kind regards, Ken H 33721 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi, Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > What I will add below does not add anything new that is of much > substance; it is more in the form of jousting! ;-) ... S: Anytime;-)Do I need any special equipment? ... > Howard: > Clinging to rocks and persons is overcome by realizing that such > "things" are, in fact, never observed, but only mentally constructed. > (The same is > true for alleged rupas that are different from sense objects, but are > claimed > to underlie sense objects.) ... S: Ok, good point. There’s still clinging, even when there’s no wrong view too. ... > Howard: > Unless one is extraordinarily adept spiritually, hearing about > what is > actually observed is necessary. ... S: Necessary for all but a Buddha in that life. ... >But it is not sufficient. The training > of the > mind to see what really arises is necessary as well. ... S: No disagreement. Pariyatti->Patipatti->Pativedha ... > Howard: > How do you know there are kalapas? Have you ever encountered one, > or > do you just believe? If only believed, well, I think trees are prettier > to > believe in! ;-) .... S: Good Qu! All I can say is that with more understanding of the teachings, there is more confidence in what is read in the Tipitaka, even those parts not directly realized. A sotapanna has full confidence, no doubt in the Triple Gem. It doesn’t mean that all realities taught by the Buddha (and key disciples [and ancient commentators])have been experience. Even for arahants, details only known by the Buddha’s omniscience, such as about various world systems or intricacies of conditions can only ever be taken on faith. But no doubt. In my case, I used to just leave aside (well, I still do)large chunks of the teachings that are too hard for me to comprehend on any level and which it wouldn’t be useful to get bogged down in for now. Slowly, a few little windows open, however, and I find aspects leading to helpful reflection which would have just led to confusion before. I’ve never set a rule or sat down to learn any lists or memorize terms or anything like that. ... > > S: In terms of experience, yes, I agree. In terms of realities taught > by > > the Buddha, then no. If none of us were on the earth, it wouldn’t > mean > > there were no rupas arising and falling. It would mean there was no > > experience of them by cittas. > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > That is a presumption, and it is one that is in principle > untestable. > ------------------------------------------------- ... S: Again, I just rely on the teachings which make good sense. All kinds of details can only be directly known by a Buddha and shared with us to show that all realities are conditioned and anatta. ... > Howard: > But there is no basis for distinguishing whether belief in the > existence of unobservable phenomena is right or wrong. This is a matter > of untestable > faith - now you bring in "religion". ;-) > --------------------------------------------------- .... S: OK;-). I also smile because what appealed to me most when I came across the Dhamma was the clear message that it could all be tested out and anything else was unimportant. This was so appealing (and still is), having discarded other religions or philosphies which relied on faith. It’s still the essence - by understanding more directly about namas and rupas, gradually there will be more understanding about conditions and also the arising of dhammas in combinations or groups. Like a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces can only fit into place one way. .... ---------------------------- > Howard: > Has the Buddha ever asserted the existence of rupas in the suttas > that > are different from sense objects? I doubt it. ... S: Well yes. Apart from visible object, sound, smell, taste, hardness/softness, motion and temperature, all other rupas can only be experienced as mind-door objects, including cohesion/water. Maybe I misunderstand you. .... > If he had, however, I wouldn't accept it - I would not accept on > the > basis of authority a proposition that is in principle unverifiable. The > Buddha, > himself, cautioned accepting a matter on the basis of authority, but > urged > our investigating the matter for ourselves. > --------------------------------------------- ... S: I agree. Verifiable, however, depends on understanding and accumulations. Just because there is no direct experience of a reality now, doesn’t mean it may not be in future or there is no benefit at all in ‘straightening our views’ at least intellectually. I believe that second quote I gave in the message to James on straightening views would be relevant here, even if it was not directly so in the other context;-). Just been given two minutes for a walk by Jon...so dashing off. Metta, Sarah ===== 33722 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 3:30am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 5 Straight to deep Dhamma? Talk With Rob K pt 5 Straight to deep Dhamma? Next, I asked Rob about the project he is leading with some students in Japan who are translating Buddhism In Daily Life. (By Nina) I won?ft transcribe the details here, but I am certainly looking forward to seeing the Japanese version when it?fs available. I asked him if he was interested in actively promoting Dhamma in Japan, but he said he wasn?ft, at least not as strongly as before. ?gI?fm more content to let it come to me.?h He did say that Japanese people were easier to talk to with about Dhamma concepts such as khamma about than Westerners because there's not the same skepticism. I questioned this, saying that at least in the West there is a large mass market for Buddhist books, that at least get people in the gate, and welcome them. (Whereas in Japan, all is in the hands of the Priests, and Japanese Buddhists are entirely passive to their authority, it seems to me. The ?grely on yourself?h principle doesn?ft seem to be in effect) So I said I saw value in these pop Buddhist books, such as those by Thich Nhat Hahn, that at least get people interested, as they did me. And I said I?fd like to see the same kind of pop Buddhist books become popular in Japan. (They are not, unless they are books by founders of such sects as Soka Gakai.) Phil: I don?ft have as much experience talking about Dhamma with Japanese people as you do, but I would have thought a more iysashi- kei (healing) gentle approach would be best at the beginning. Rob: There are so many philosophies in the world that give you comfort. You can find 100 philosophies that will comfort you and get you through the night. But if you don?ft get to the heart of the Dhamma, about the present moment, about the conditionality, about the matter, about the six sense doors, you might as well teach those other philosophies. When you started studying Abhidhamma you saw something different in it right? I mean, in my class I talk immediately, I walk about Buddhism. What is real? What is happening now? What is reality now? And they say ?gah, I?fm in this room?h and I say, you know ?gno, what is absolutely real? Seeing, hearing, tasting, touch. Just straight from the beginning. And the people that have the tendency, the ability to understand it start to get interested, and the ones who don?ft, don?ft. Phil: I do realize that, and I?fm not saying that we should go back to...kind of regress and think about teaching from wrong view in order to lead someone to... Rob: There?fs a danger in doing that. I do know what you?fre saying. I mean, Thich Nhat Hahn has made Buddhism more popular in the West, there?fs a general idea. There?fs merit in there. I?fm not saying there?fs not merit in there. But there?fs danger in it too. It?fs a dangerous thing in my opinion. It?fs a double-edged sword. Phil: (talks about a collection of the Buddha?fs teaching that is left in Japanese hotel rooms, that is chock full of translations that I now see are wrong, but which as the same time got me interested in the Buddha?fs teaching.) There was one line in there,?g a thousand candles can be lit by a single flame?h and it had given me the idea that an act of kindness on my part could ripple....but there are so many conditions, and now I see that I can give people momentary calm...if I say so myself, I?fm a great (English) teacher, because for a long time I was inspired by the ideal of giving kindness to people. And I do give them some comfort, some calm, give them a little laugh, but then it?fs the conditions that are going to take over, and there?fs only so much that I can do to help people. Except by teaching the true Dhamma. (maybe someday.) Rob: Teaching the deep Dhamma. I mean you can hear that sort of thing in many different philosophies. I mean, Khun Sujin sometimes gets criticized in Thailand because she?fs always straight to the deepest part of the Dhamma, about annata, about realities. And people are saying to her, why not soften up the approach, why not go for...the other stuff, you know. That?fs also Buddhism. She says ?gyes,that?fs true, but annata is...?h The Buddha said the other teachers teach metta, they teach compassion, they teach right view, khamma and vipaka to a certain degree. But it?fs only the Buddha that teaches annata. And human life is short. So those who have the ability to understand the deep parts, she wants to help them. It?fs not wrong, I?fm not criticizing you at all for doing kindness, for helping people, that?fs good too. Phil: Now I know the limits of what we can actually do for other people, in that sense, just by being kind. 33723 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:02am Subject: Full Control ! Friends: Equilibrist Steering: Avoiding all Evil Doing only Good Purifying Mind So teach all Buddhas. Dhammapada 183 There are these 5 kinds of Control: Control by the code of the rules. Control by aware guarding of the senses. Control by understanding the mental forces. Control by tolerance of the conditions. Control by the effort of mental purification. The path of Purification Vism 7 Crucial is Timing in the 4 kinds of Action: Action that is pleasant now, but later results in pain. Action that is painful now & also later results in pain. Action that is painful now, but later results in pleasure. Action that is pleasant now & also later results in pleasure. The Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha MN I 305 Always aware & alert: With Awareness of the body well established, Controlling the 6 sense sources of contact, By such continuous focus the Bhikkhu can come to know Nibbana on his own... The Inspirations. Udana 28 All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 33724 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 1:18am Subject: No Creator ! Friends: Ignorance & Craving creates the pleasure & pain: A wandering philosopher once asked the sitting Buddha: Are pleasure & pain created by oneself ? Not so, friend, replied the Buddha. Are pleasure & pain then created by another ? Not so, friend.. Are pleasure & pain then created both by oneself & another ? Not so, friend.. Are pleasure & pain created neither by oneself nor another ? Not so, friend.. How is it then, are there no pleasure & pain at all ? Neither so, friend. There are indeed both pleasure & pain, replied the Buddha and explained: Friend, if one assumes that: The Feeling itself and the one who feels are one & the same, then inherently one constructs a 'self' existing a priori and that this 'one-self' is the creator of pleasure & pain... I do not agree with this... But, friend, if one assumes: The Feeling itself is one, and the one who feels it, is another, then inherently one constructs reference to one as 'being stricken' by feeling and therefore, that the creator of pleasure & pain is another... Neither do I agree with this... Without veering towards any of these two opposed extremes, the Well-Gone-One teaches the Dhamma in the middle: Ignorance causes & conditions mental construction. Construction causes & conditions consciousness. Consciousness causes & conditions mind-&-matter. Mind-&-matter causes & conditions the 6-senses. The 6-senses causes & conditions contact. Contact causes & conditions feeling. Feeling causes & conditions craving. Craving causes & conditions clinging. Clinging causes & conditions becoming. Becoming causes & conditions birth. Birth causes & conditions ageing, sickness & Death. Such is the origin & arising of this whole mass of Suffering... Consequently: Cessation of ignorance ceases mental construction. Cessation of construction ceases consciousness. Cessation of consciousness ceases mind-&-matter. Cessation of mind-&-matter ceases the 6-senses. Cessation of the 6-senses ceases contact. Cessation of contact ceases feeling. Cessation of feeling ceases craving. Cessation of craving ceases clinging. Cessation of clinging ceases becoming. Cessation of becoming ceases birth. Cessation of birth ceases ageing, sickness & Death. Such is the very End of this whole mass of Suffering... This convinced the speculator. May many be even so. Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN II 22-3. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html http://www.wisdompubs.org/products/0861713311.cfm All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 33725 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 5:36am Subject: Amputation Sutta ;) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Dear Agrios, RobM and Nina, > > As to eye sense, we can read and read that 'the physical eye does not > see' but something that made that clearer to me was a show the other > night where a child who was born without ears couldn't hear anything of > the outside world (but only himself they said) until he was fitted with > a special kind of hearing aid that set up vibrations in the bones of his > head. He still didn't have normal physical ears, but the way I > understood it, he could hear when he wore the device because the the > hearing rupa/ear(door) could arise when there was contact with the > sound(waves) from the bones. > > I'm afraid that doesn't help me understand the heart-base as having any > set 'home', though. > > peace, > connie Hi Connie and others interested in rupas. This what I was thinking on an other day. ;) Amputation Sutta ;) - Monks, I will talk about form as tought in Abidhamma! - Yes Lord, - Once I told you that it makes more sense to consider self to be this body, then mentality as this very body stays with you much longer then mentality. If you close an eye, would you see any visual objects? - Yes Lord, we could see our eyelids. - Consider then removing an eye by a skilled surgeon, would you still see anything with this eye? - No Lord. - Now, consider not only removing an eye by a skilled surgeon, but replacing this very eye with an electronic camera connected to your nervous system. Would you see any visual objects then? - Yes, Lord. - Now, consider replacing second eye...[same as above] - Now, consider replacing both ears [...] - Now, consider replacing tongue [...] - Now, consider replacing nose [...] - Now, consider replacing whole skin and feeling receptors [...] - Whats left monks? - All the external rupas and most of all - our favorite heart base inside our heart! - Consider then replacing heart itself with electronic device, could this be done? And the monks said with great sadness: YES LORD! :( metta, Agrios 33726 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your message and queries on my posts. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Please see below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: I'm not sure we can say this. As you say, they are arising most the time. Whilst the grosser forms may easily be recognised, what about the very common subtler forms arising even now as we speak? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You will know from my posts that I intend for average readers and not expert readers. For average readers, lobha or greediness and dosa or hatred are quite evident. Subtle forms of lobha, dosa, moha have not been talking. Regarding subtler forms, there would need separate communication and this will be for advanced practitioners. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > We are most of the time in lobha cittas or otherwise in dosa cittas > > if we are not specifically practising dhamma in some way. .... S: I'm not quite sure what this last sentence means. cittas are so fast,that even now while we're discussing dhamma, there are bound to be moments of kusala and akusala. It always comes back to the citta, I think. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What is sure is that if someone is not in mahasatipatthana, most of cittas will not be good ones. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > <.....> > > In our daily life, when we are heavily attached to something and we > > feel happy then we are in lobha cittas associated with joy or piti > > and this is called samanassa as explained in the previous post. .... S: I'm not sure there has to be `heavily attached' for somanassa to arise with the citta? Again, I think it can be quite subtle, like now when we look at the computer screen there can be a little lobha and a little pleasant feeling.... ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I wrote 2 separate sentences but joined with 'and' conjunction. 'Heavily attached' means lobha. We fell happy means 'piti' and its effect. I did not mean '' there has to be 'heavily attached' for somanassa to arise with the citta''. Please re-read my message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Perhaps we should make it clear that when there is no view, such as looking at the computer screen without any thought either way about kamma or the practice, then there is no wrong view. Only when there is the wrong view arising, is it this type of citta you're describing. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: A single citta with its associated cetasikas including ditthi cetasika arise in lobha cittas that are ditthi sampayutta. Wrong view here is a translational word. What I mean is ditthi. I just include simple understandable examples. When lobha cittas arise, there may or may not be 'the wrong view you said'. But every ditthi-sampayutta lobha citta does have 'ditthi' cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > <...> > > As > > soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma. > > > That kamma may give rise to patisandhi cittas. .... S: Like Nina suggested, I think we have to be careful to distinguish between kilesa (defilements) arising and accumulating and kamma-patha, courses of action likely to bring results. Not all lobha cittas are kamma-patha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why? Do you have any evidence that 'Not all lobha cittas are kamma-patha' ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In (026) you also wrote that `kusala cittas and akusala cittas are cittas that have kamma-producing power and they are called kammapatha cittas. I think we need to restrict this term to the 10 wholesome and unwholesome courses of action. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am discussing cittas. Not kamma. There are 12 akusala cittas. unwholesome course of actions and cittupada will not be the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In the same message, you wrote: `With the exception of 2 cittas called pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta, all kiriya cittas arise in arahats.' Why these exceptions?? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because they can arise in non-arahats including putthujana and even lower beings like hell beings and animals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: In (032), again I'd like to question a comment on the citta with wrong view in the child who does not know about kamma when lobha arises. I'd say, it depends. Just because there is no knowledge of the dhamma doesn't mean there is always ditthi arising with lobha. What do you think? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said these are for average readers. In the same message, I include that this citta can also arise in adult. And vicee versa also happen. 8-year-old arahat will not have ditthi or wrong view and no akusala cittas and kusala cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When there is upekkha with lobha, may be better to translate it as `indifferent feeling' rather than `equanimous feeling' so as not to confuse it with the wholesome factor of equanimity (tatramajjhattata), but this is a minor comment;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I took it a major comment. :-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a couple of comments I might add on your other series. I look forward to your feedback as usual, Htoo. I learn a lot from your series and your posts help me question my limited understanding of these details. Anumodana and I'm glad conditions encouraged you to keep posting;-). Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your support. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33727 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:09am Subject: Re: just Heart thing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Agrios, Hi Rob, [...] > US: Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu, when they arise in the Kama- > sphere and Rupa-sphere, must depend on rupa (matter), just as cakkhu- > vinnana and others depend on eye-sensitivity and others. > > RM: Mano-dhatu (mind-element) include the five-door-adverting citta > and the two receiving cittas (one kusala vipaka, one akusala vipaka). > Manovinnana-dhatu (mind-consciousness element) includes the remaining > 76 cittas (not including the ten sense-consciousness cittas or the > three mano-dhatu cittas). See p146 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive > Manual of Abhidhamma". U Silanda's use of the term "-sphere" is > incorrect; it should be "-world" or "-plane". Spheres (vacara) and > worlds / planes (loka) are related but distinct. See p30 of Bhikkhu > Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma". In this context, it is > loka that is meant, not sphere. It is the nature of the loka that all > cittas arising require a rupa as a base. It is the nature of the > arupa-loka (immaterial plane) that cittas do not require a rupa as a > base. U Silananda is plainly stating that everything in rupa sphere MUST be based in rupa and everything in arupa sphere mustn't. This is what you told me long time ago, and then I asked you about list of conditions to figure out why is it so. This is what Nina writes in her books, and this is the same what she wrote answering my question. But I didn't ask about rupa and arupa worlds, spheres or their nature. I ask only about mechanism, need, a reason for mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu to be based one time in rupa and another not. In other worlds, the same mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu can be once in "a MUST" need of rupa for its arising , and the other time not at all. And these are the same Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu. This does not make sense to me. Since you decided to make little return, let me do it as well. We are back in conditionality and mano seems conditioned by enviroment. And I am not understanding conditionality as yet. As for rest of explanation, I did use the same logic to go one by one and see what can be used. But you see, doing something like this is just plain speculation and when one is short on direct knowledge, one can simply create as many rupas as is needed. I am cutting out whole Buddhaghosa part. Buddhaghosa wrote some books, done some good job and some bad. Naturally. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) metta, Agrios 33728 From: Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/8/04 4:13:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Butting in here... > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >My "eye" has been seeing discomfort with > >regard > >to concentration and volition for quite a while. Of course my view could > >be > >jaundiced. > .... > S: Certainly my ‘eye’ hasn’t seen any ‘discomfort’ (let alone any ‘scare > the bejesus’ on account of these factors or comments by you or others on > them. Of course, I may have been missing something (!!), but speaking for > this household (I’d better not speak for the list;-)), I’d say your view > is pretty jaundiced here;-). > > Seriously, some of the best discussions on DSG have been with you on these > very ‘phenomena’ and also on effort, concepts and realities and many other > related topics. So please don’t rest until satisfied. You have our deepest > respect in this regard and I do know others feel the same. I know Nina > also appreciates it a lot when you add comments on the Vism or other > threads. > > I’m sure you also often want to say ‘There he/she goes again!’ when we > speak too;-). > > Metta, > > Sarah ========================== No need for concern: I'm not satisfied, and I'm not resting; I won't rest until I *know*, and until then - and after as well - I'll keep on looking and inquiring ... (and contending!! ;-). With striving and contention and much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33729 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 ) Sarah: Dear Htoo, -- Htoo Naing wrote: Some of members may have been on the Path that is Noble Eightfold Path while others are just approaching. ... S: To be honest, I'm not sure what this means. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I mean some may have been stream-enterers or once-returners. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: As I understand, the Eightfold (or rather Fivefold usually) Path refers to the mental factors you elaborate which arise together with moments of satipatthana. the Noble Eightfold Path factors only arise with the lokuttara cittas which have nibbana as object. Are we on the same path here?? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Quite difficult to say. I think we are on the same tract. But some may be at the beginning, some may be near the end and some in the middle somewhere. If you stay in mahasatipatthana and I am not , or, if I stay in mahasatipatthana and you do not, then we are not on the same path but may still be on the same tract. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:Before there can be any real understanding of dukkha, I think namas and rupas have to be understood clearly. Do you agree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Theorywise yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > .... > > > > We have passed on this several times and we now have the right view. > > Having right view leads us to right thinking or right resolve. As our > > view is right, all thoughts associated with right view will become right > > thought. > ... > S: Perhaps we should stress that right thought (sammaa sankappa) always > arises with right view, so it's not a matter of one first and then > another. Also, I think we need to stress that this is nothing to do with > thinking and thoughts as we are used to these terms. It is vitakka > cetasika (which accompanies most cittas) and directs (in this case > `rightly' the citta onto the object which right view understands. It leads > the citta and without it, the other factors such as right view couldn't > perform their functions. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I realise you're trying to keep this series fairly straight forward and I'm not suggesting it should be so complicated as I may be making it;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. Thanks. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > In (04) you go onto say that having developed right thoughts `our actions > will become right actions'. Again, I'd add similar comments with regard to > the virati (abstaining) cetasikas of right speech, action and livelihood, > one of which may arise with the mundane cittas naturally when there is > right view arising. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: So I also have a question mark about the last para in (04) about waking up, having right thoughts which `will dictate all our actions though out the day and night until we go into deep sleep', because I'm not sure it squares with what you are teaching from an Abhidhamma understanding about rapidly changing cittas and moments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not squaring. If one has determined, he will stay in that state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:Please accept any comments I make as a token of my respect for all your writing and sharing Htoo. I look forward to any further discussion on these or other points. Metta, Sarah p.s You've asked me before to mention when there are posts addressed to you, as others have too. I'm sorry, I usually forget and of course would like to encourage you to read all posts and answer any questions or add comments on other threads too if you're inclined;-) ================== Htoo: The more we discuss, the more we find fine points. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33730 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 7:02am Subject: Re: just Heart thing Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > U Silananda is plainly stating that everything in rupa sphere MUST > be based in rupa and everything in arupa sphere mustn't. > This is what you told me long time ago, and then I asked you about > list of conditions to figure out why is it so. This is what Nina writes > in her books, and this is the same what she wrote answering my question. > > But I didn't ask about rupa and arupa worlds, spheres or their nature. > I ask only about mechanism, need, a reason for mano-dhatu and > manovinnana-dhatu to be based one time in rupa and another not. > In other worlds, the same mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu can > be once in "a MUST" need of rupa for its arising , and the other time not > at all. > And these are the same Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu. ===== Same citta, different world so different conditions. There are always a multiplicity of conditions at work. ===== > > This does not make sense to me. > Since you decided to make little return, let me do it as well. > We are back in conditionality and mano seems conditioned by enviroment. > And I am not understanding conditionality as yet. > > As for rest of explanation, I did use the same logic to go one by one > and see what can be used. But you see, doing something like this is > just plain speculation and when one is short on direct knowledge, > one can simply create as many rupas as is needed. Sorry for getting side-tracked and going off-topic. U Silananda, Nina and I have said that the fact that mind depends on matter is a function of the plane / world; in kama-loka and rupa- loka, all cittas need a physical base and in arupa-loka, no cittas need a physical base. In other words, the type of world / plane is one of the conditions that determines the requirement for a physical base. If I understand your question properly you are asking, "why is this so?" and my answer of, "it is the nature of the plane / world" seems empty. Sorry, I don't have anything better to offer... perhaps Nina has some insight here. If you question is "how (through what conditions) are the mind and the physical base related?", then the answer is, "matter is a condition for mind through base-prenascence condition (vatthu- purejata paccaya) and mind is a condition for matter through postnascence condition (pacchajata paccaya)". To avoid repeating my earlier mistake of going off-track, I will wait for your reply before going into details on these conditions. By the way, neither of these two conditons apply in arupa-loka planes / worlds because there is no matter in these planes / worlds. Metta, Rob M :-) 33731 From: Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/8/04 6:54:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > >Howard: > > Has the Buddha ever asserted the existence of rupas in the suttas > >that > >are different from sense objects? I doubt it. > ... > S: Well yes. Apart from visible object, sound, smell, taste, > hardness/softness, motion and temperature, all other rupas can only be > experienced as mind-door objects, including cohesion/water. Maybe I > misunderstand you. > ====================== I include mind door as a sense door. (That's in the suttas as much as the Abhidhamma, and moreover it is clear to me. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33732 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 033 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 9th citta and the 10th citta of 89 cittas are both dosa mula cittas. Dosa means hatred or aversion and mula means root. These 2 cittas have dosa as their root condition. The 9th citta in its full name is called 'domanassa sahagatm patigha sampayutta asankharika citta'. Domanassa constitutes 'do' , 'mana' , and 'assa'. Mana means 'mind related' and 'do' or 'du' means bad. So domanassa means 'disagreeable or unpleasant mental feeling'. Sahagata means 'to go with'. Patigha means 'hurting'. Sampayutta means 'mixed with'. Asankharika means 'not prompted'. Both dosa cittas are the same in terms of hurting nature. But the 9th citta is asankharika dosa citta. So it does not need any prompt. This citta can be observed in case a being who is annoyed. When a man is hit and hurt, he will feel pain and after pain he starts to feel unease in his mind and this uneasiness may later change to much more aggressive form of dosa. No one influences him to be angry. There are many other examples in our daily life. As long as unprompted, all dosa cittas are the 9th citta of 89 cittas. The 10th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is 'domanassa sahagatam patigha sampayutta sasankharika citta'. There is a man who heard the news of burglery. He did not feel anything at the time he heard the news. But someone told him that the house that was done was his house. Then the man started to feel angry. At least, in this example, his hatred is associated with sluggishness and it has to be prompted by other or outside influence. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33733 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2 Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again that whatever appears now through one of the six doorways is dhamma. We should ask ourselves to what extent we understand the meaning of dhamma. We have to listen again and consider again what we hear, in order to understand that everything is dhamma. There is dhamma right now, it has arisen because of its appropriate conditions. It could not appear if it had not arisen. If we do not understand what dhamma is, it is useless to study the Tipitaka. Seeing is dhamma, it is a reality that has its own characteristic and that cannot be changed into something else. Seeing sees what appears through the eyesense. Anger is dhamma, it has its own characteristic, it cannot be changed into attachment. When we are angry we usually think of a disagreeable person, but we should know that a person is a concept. Thinking is dhamma but the object of thinking is an idea or concept. When a dhamma appears through one of the six doors understanding of its characteristic can be developed and there is no need for words. The dhamma that arises does so because of its own conditions and it has no owner. It is non-self and it does not belong to a self. All nåmas and rúpas that appear are dhammas. We read in the Abhidhamma as well as in the Suttas about attachment, aversion and ignorance, about kusala and akusala, but the Abhidhamma classifies nåma and rúpa fully and in detail. The prefix ³abhi² of Abhidhamma means great, pre-eminent, refined, or in detail. The Abhidhamma is of great benefit because it helps us to understand the akusala cittas and kusala cittas arising in our life, and the ways they are conditioned. This again helps us to realize that they are anattå. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (III, Khandhå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Elements, Ch 2, § 15, What is impermanent): At Såvatthí...Then (the Exalted One) said:- ³Body, brethren, is impermanent. What is impermanent that is suffering. What is suffering, that is void of the self. What is void of the self, that is not mine, I am not it, it is not my self. That is how it is to be regarded by perfect insight of what it really is...² The same is said of the khandhas of feeling, perception, the activities and consciousness. We may contemplate the three characteristics inherent in all conditioned dhammas, but through the Abhidhamma we can gain a deeper understanding of the meaning of the three characteristics as explained in this Sutta. We learn through the Abhidhamma that seeing arises and falls away within a process of cittas, that it is preceded and followed by other cittas that succeed one another very rapidly. After seeing has fallen away kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. Nobody can change the order of the cittas that succeed one another. What we take for our body are rúpas originated from different factors, and they arise and fall away. What is impermanent is of no refuge, and thus it is dukkha, unsatisfactory. The Abhidhamma can be a foundation for the development of insight that leads to the direct understanding of the three characteristics of conditioned realities. **** Nina 33734 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heartbase , no 1. Hi Howard and Agrios, allow me to combine, since your questions partly overlap. Howard wrote: ====================== A different but related question is why any physical base is required at all from the Abhidhammic perspective. Doesn't Abhidhamma take bhavanga citta to be the mind door? Also, aren't there supposedly realms of (fully) disembodied beings who still function mentally. N: In the arupa brahma planes there is only nama, not rupa, and thus, no heartbase is necessary there. Yes, the heartbase is not doorway, it is physical base for most cittas. See Rob M for details. The bhavanga-citta arising immediately before the mind-door process begins with the mind-door adverting-consciousness, is the mind-door. It is the means by which the cittas of that process experience the object. The heartbase is a difficult subject and as you said before, you only find seven rupas acceptable: three are tangible objects, and in addition: colour, sound, odour and flavour. This is a good beginning though. They appear all the time in daily life. It occurs to me how little we know even about those rupas. We can read about them, but do we really understand them as rupa, different from nama? Not mixed at all with nama? This is very difficult, but it is necessary to have clear understanding of nama and rupa through the development of insight. That is, direct understanding, no naming or thinking. No need to think of subject and object. I can appreciate all the more A. Sujin's emphaze on: is there any understanding of dhamma now? What about seeing now? I realize how we mix up seeing and colour, hearing and sound. Nama and rupa are there at the same time, but sati can be aware of only one characteristic. Seeing experiences colour, but not without eyesense. Eyesense is a necessary condition for the arising of seeing. And so it is with the other four senses. Considering conditions can help to also appreciate the rupas that are the senses. Then we have already twelve rupas that are acceptable. Eyesense is doorway and base for seeing, and the other cittas of the eye-door process still have eyesense as doorway, but not as base. They have a different base. First we have to understand the meaning of base. You also find it difficult to understand that seeing arises at a base, the eyebase. We should not have pictorial ideas about this fact. That is confusing. Perhaps it is easier to understand the bodybase: this is bodysensitivity all over the body. Wherever tangible object impinges, there is the base for the arising of body-consciousness that experiences the hardness or softness, heat or cold, motion or pressure. In this plane we are nama and rupa, not just nama. Cittas are somehow connected with the body, and this makes it clearer that there are bases for cittas. Cittas must originate from somewhere. The words used by the Tiika in connection with base: . In the Patthana we find that the bases are support-condition, nissaya-paccaya, for the cittas concerned. The sense objects and the sensebases are impinging, and they are reckoned as coarse rupas. But, the bases are difficult to know directly. We have to consider them more. The heartbase is a subtle rupa, but if we understand at least in theory that physical bases are necessary conditions for the cittas concerned, we can also understand that the other cittas need a physical base. This is called the heartbase. I wrote in my Tiika study: Although we cannot experience it now, what can we learn about this? It is the physical basis for many cittas, included in mind-element and mind-consciousness element. It is a condition for other realities and it itself is conditioned by kamma which keeps on producing it throughout life, on and on. We are in a five khandha plane, meaning, what we call *we* are nama and rupa. Each citta takes a new base (be it sensebase or heartbase), except during the last javanacittas of a life which all depend on one heartbase. This study helps us to see at least intellectually, that the heartbase and the cittas that depend on it are very temporary, beyond control and not to be taken for mine or self. All these studies of details we do now are accumulated as a foundation so that later on panna can arise which understands the true nature of dhammas. Nina. 33735 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Rob M, op 08-06-2004 03:27 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of Abhidhamma > lecture notes written by U Silananda and there is a section > titled, "Reasons for Existence of Hadaya Vatthu" extracted from the > commentary to the Visuddhimagga and the commentary to the > Abhidhammathsangaha. I reproduce it below with my clarifications. N: In my Tiika study of the Vis I used the same, but took them from U. Narada. But I added an additional argument. But first a comment on this quote of U Silananda, because not everyone will know what is the Vatthu-duka and Arammana-duka. > US: The reason why it is not mentioned in the Dhammasangani, where > all rupas are mentioned, is that if it were mentioned there, the > uniformity of presentation of the Vatthu-duka and Arammana-duka, so > important for the understnding of the doctrine and the realization of > truth by litteners, would be broken and thus defeat the very purpose > of the doctrine - the realization of truth by listeners. N: The pairs of bases (vatthu) and objects(arammana): The five bases and the five corresponding sense-objects are respectively the receivers and impingers. But this is not so with heart-base and cognizable object. Instead, cognizable object impinges on the mind-door (life-continuum *) and appears in it. Hence, heart-base is not a door and so it can never be a conditioning state of base-prenascence-faculty condition.> The Tiika deals here with the pairs of bases (vatthus) and of objects. In the Dhsg this is in the Matika, but the translator has left this out. All rupas can be the object of mind-consciousness, thus, one cannot say: "There is matter that is the object of mind-consciousness, there is matter that is not the object of mind-consciousness". I want to add more about aayatanas, sensebases to clarify this. There are 6 inward ayatanas: the five senses and citta (mind-base, which is not the heartbase, but which includes all cittas). There are 6 outer ayatanas: the five sense objects and dhammaayatana, including cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. Heartbase is included in the subtle rupas. Thus, five inner and outer ayatans form pairs, but the heartbase itself does not form a pair with citta. Tiika Text: So the physical-basis dyads and object dyads being thus made inconsistent, the teaching would lack unity. That is why the heart-basis is not mentioned, not because it is unapprehendable. N: We find reasons for the way of classifications: to help those who are capable of understanding and for the sake of the beauty of the teaching. This is an argument that counts. Why? At that time the teachings were orally transmitted and rehearsed. The great harmony of arrangement helped to do so. That is why we see that sections are numbered as Ones, Twos (dyads), Threes etc. The whole book of Yamaka consists of dyads. We also see this principle in the Suttanta. It is important to see that there are different headings of arrangement, and that there is non-inconsistency as we read here. The Pali has: desanaabhedo: desanaa: teaching. Bhedo: division or category. Thus literally: in accordance with the way of categorizing the teachings. This makes it more understandable that in the Dhammasangani the heartbase is not mentioned. Why heartbase? I am personally more inclined to heart than to brain. Another explanation by the Tiika of Vis: Tiika Text: It is known that its location is there because of the heart's exhaustion (khijjana) in one who thinks of anything, bringing it to mind intently and directing his whole mind to it' (Pm. 449-50). N: Here the Tiika commentator wants to make understandable in conventional terms why the heart-base is the physical support of citta. R: With the recent discussion of Buddhaghosa, I pulled from my bookcase > a hard-cover book that I bought a few months back, but never had the > time to read. It is "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" by Bimala > Charan Law, with a foreward by Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys Davids. N: Sarah and I discussed it and we both like it very much. After Buddhaghosa had written > out the book for a third time, Sakka took pity and gave back the two > earlier versions. N: I was considering these three times, and this is understandable when taking into account the utmost care in the tranmission of the teachings. As I wrote before: reciting in a group of arahats gives extra control. Checking again and again is important. R: when Buddhaghosa died, he was reborn in Tusita heaven (i.e. > he was not an Arahant). N: Tusita heaven: a place for ariyans, though not arahat. That means something to me. Nina. 33736 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart base, no 2. Hi Howard and Agrios, My answer to Howard was long, since I like to see heartbase in a wider context, not in isolation. op 07-06-2004 22:33 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: please allow me to take this opportunity to thank you for all your great books > and > translations. I am thrilled to have opportunity to ask you questions on > Dhamma. N: You are wellcome any time. A: I know this from your books Nina. I am asking why > mind-consciousness needs rupa base. N: See post 1 to Howard and you and also Rob M. Also about Buddhaghosa, see Rob M. A: One can think about it, I know that. > The problem is, I can't realize it and all this alleged rupas just plainly do > not > present themselves at all. ... > Whole theory of them, sounds like really bad chemistry, like some speculation > which never, never can be realized as it is just plain concept of archaic > origins. N : It is a subtle rupa as I explained and hard to realize it. The coarse rupas are already difficult to realize directly, we should not expect too much. It is not necessary to realize all rupas in insight and at enlightenment. We talked about this with A. Sujin. By the way, if you have any chance, do come over to Thailand to meet her. Malaysia is near. I quote from my Tiika study and the Q. of Larry who is leading the whole study of the Vis. BTW we are just starting viññanakkhandha now. Here is the quote: Heart-base can condition citta by: base-object- prenascence-dependence condition. It is prenascent, it is base, it can also be the object. In the Patthana it is explained that it can be the object of insight or of lobha: ³ (One) practises insight into impermanency, suffering, impersonality... enjoys and delights in the internal (heart-base). Taking it as object, arises lust, arises wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief.² This shows that a rupa that can be experienced only through the mind-door is not only experienced by insight, but it can also be experienced by akusala citta. U Narada, p. 33: during the process of dying: ******* Larry:Even so, there is reason to doubt that this could happen. N: We never know, it depends on conditions, we cannot speculate about this. Heartbase is a condition by way of base, and also it can be a condition by way of object at the same time, during life or at the end of life, as we have seen (U Narada, refers to Patthana). Some people find it hard to accept that what can only be experienced through the mind-door and what they cannot experience now is not necessarily a concept. Heartbase is a reality, a dhamma. A concept can be a condition by way of object, but it could never be a condition by way of base, as is the case with the heart-base. Thus, how could heartbase be a concept, an idea, a product of thinking? L: I see that the Vism. commentary says the heartbase is to be known "from > scriptures and from reasoning", in other words, conceptually. N: I am glad you mention this. We have to return to the Pali text: How can this be known? aagamato: by the scriptures. Yuttito: by application. There is nothing about logical reasoning in the Pali text, this is too limited. Yutta: yoked, connected, applied to. You see here that this is a much larger meaning? Applied not just by thinking, it can be by direct experience. From the scriptures, yes, had the Buddha not taught us, we would not know that there is a heart-base. People may doubt again. Only the sotapanna has eradicated doubt. By the development of satipatthana he has realized by direct experience many realities. Suppose many are realized but not all, this does not give rise to doubt, because of the confidence in the Dhamma has become unshakable. Because of direct experience through panna, confidence becomes steadfast and firm. A: I had to ask. If somebody realized rupa, I will try to meet him and ask him > to help me. But I've never meet someone like this. I am trying to see if Rob, > Sarah > or you would help me. N: I understand you remarks and doubts. If we see that figurative language is used to explain realities we shall not mix realities and concepts. We shall not think of bad chemistry. Everybody has to develop his own understanding. We have to associate with the right friends, listen, consider and practice accordingly. It would not help you to ask someone else whether he has realized the heartbase. It can only be known by insight. Nobody can do that for you. So long as we are not sotapanna we have to accept that there is doubt, that there are many realities we only know in theory. A. Sujin exhorted us to develop understanding of the realities that appear now. We should not say beforehand: impossible to directly know this or that rupa. It all depends on conditions, on accumulated pañña. But A. Sujin is the right friend who can clarify many things for you. But you will notice that she will begin with: is there any understanding of dhamma now? Of reality that appears now? (See my post no 1). It is the only right approach, as I see it. And why should we not begin to develop understanding of those seven rupas that appear all the time in daily life? One at a time through the relevant sensedoors? And I use the word: develop. There cannot be clear understanding in the beginning. Understanding has to grow by considering and investigating, and sometimes sati can arise as conditions allow. Not because there is an idea of self who tries. Abhidhamma and practice are closely connected. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand anatta. Do not hesitate to ask again about what is not clear. Nina. 33737 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: Brahma viharas 4 Quoting from A. Sujin's Perfections: In her lecture A. Sujin emphasized that when there is metta, we have no conceit and we are humble. We should be like a dustrag that people use for wiping their feet. We can develop metta and humbleness of heart when others speak to us in an unpleasant way. We read in A. Sujin¹s book on Metta: In her lecture A. Sujin referred to a question she asked us when we were in the Jeta Grove, the place where the Buddha stayed for many rainy seasons. There were many arahats together with the Buddha. A. Sujin asked us what we were looking for in the Jeta Grove and people had different answers to her question. She said that she was looking for a dustrag and that she would like to become like a dustrag. There were many disciples in the Jeta Grove who were like a dustrag. When we are like a dustrag we do not mind about what is dirty or clean. We can gradually learn to be unaffected by pleasant objects and unpleasant objects, by gain and loss, praise and blame. We can learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of dana, we wish others to be free from danger. A. Sujin said that when one is with a friend one is safe from danger. We still have the latent tendency of aversion. This is not eradicated until the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner. When we are annoyed with someone else we keep on thinking about this and then we can see that we have accumulated aversion. If we do not develop metta we cannot subdue aversion and anger. When we develop right understanding of nama and rupa we gradually come to know the characteristic of true metta when it appears in daily life. We shall be less deluded about the outward appearance of our deeds and not erroneously take akusala for kusala. *** Nina 33738 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 0:49pm Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 4 Hello Nina, "We can learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of dana, we wish others to be free from danger." If one is not offended, there is nothing to forgive. Other people's actions and speech belong to them. As in the Akkosa Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn07-002.html If one is offended, then wouldn't that have to do with one's own conceit and self-view? And, so it seems to me, does the idea of judging that it is the other who needs forgiving. How does our forgiving someone help them to be free of danger? How does one 'learn to forgive'? I'm enjoying your series - but could you clarify that part for me please? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: When we are like a dustrag we do not mind about > what is dirty or clean. We can gradually learn to be unaffected by pleasant > objects and unpleasant objects, by gain and loss, praise and blame. We can > learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of dana, we wish > others to be free from danger. > Nina 33739 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 0:55pm Subject: Re: Full Control !/Question Hello Bhikkhu Samahita, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita There are these 5 kinds of Control: Control by the code of the rules. Control by aware guarding of the senses. Control by understanding the mental forces. Control by tolerance of the conditions. Control by the effort of mental purification. The path of Purification Vism 7 ========================= Chapter VII of The Path of Purification by Bhandantaacariya Buddhaghosha (trans. from the Pali by Bhikkhu Naanamoli) is entitled 'Description of Concentration - Six Recollections'. It is 42 pages long (p.204 - p.246), and covers the Recollection of the Buddha, Recollection of the Dhamma, Recollection of the Sangha, Recollection of virtue, Recollection of generosity, and Recollection of deities. I am not good at finding refs. in the Visuddhi Magga. Perhaps someone has located the list in their copy? If so, I would appreciate some direction - otherwise, Bhikkhu Samahita, may I trouble you for a more exact reference? On first browsing this chapter, I have been unable to find the '5 kinds of control', and in the 22 page Index of subjects and proper names (which gives precise references to chapter and paragraph numbers) the word "control" is not listed. Or, alternatively, can someone explain how there can be control when there is no self to control? TIA. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33740 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 1:06pm Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 4 Hi christine! At the Visuddgimagga, Chpt.1, we get Buddhaghosa's affirmation that the main end of Sila is the virtue of "No remorse", or absence of griefing about the decisions one can take or do about others or his/herself. The offender and the sufferer of offense are at the same ground for Sila and the main purpose of the true practicioner is the purity of mind. The serious person that can take the Noble path learns forgiveness taming at first his own mind, never thinking "He abused me, he injured me, he robbed me" (Cf. The Dhammapada, Chpt.1) and cultivating such "no Remorse" state of mind, as described by Buddhaghosa. Mettaya, Ícaro P.S.: Your railroad maps helped me very much, Chris! I managed to link Darwin to Alice Springs and Adelaide...but the game urged me to go straight to Brisbane and I went to the ropes ...fortunately only at the "Railroad tycoon"PC Game! 33741 From: Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Full Control !/Question In a message dated 6/8/2004 1:12:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: Hello Bhikkhu Samahita, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita There are these 5 kinds of Control: Control by the code of the rules. Control by aware guarding of the senses. Control by understanding the mental forces. Control by tolerance of the conditions. Control by the effort of mental purification. Or, alternatively, can someone explain how there can be control when there is no self to control? TIA. metta and peace, Christine Hi Christine The way I would understand this is... "control" here is not meant in a broad absolute sense; it is meant to illustrate specific things that help keep one on the right Path. I think it would be over-reaching to read this to mean that there is some sort of "self-control" operating among phenomena. After all, how could *Vinaya Rules* have any "control?" They are not even a Being, they are just abstract notions. TG 33742 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:16pm Subject: Re: Brahma viharas, 3 Hello Nina, and all I will continue reading Nina's series and just adding my own comments off the top of my head. This is kind of like a journal for me, so please forgive the self-indulgence, all. And, as always, I hope you don't feel an obligation to respond, Nina. I know how busy you are. N:> When we cling to the importance of self there is conceit, the citta is > rigid, not gentle, and there cannot be metta at the same time. When conceit > arises it accompanies the citta rooted in attachment. When we attach > importance to what others think about us, there is conceit. When we expect > kind words from them but they do not speak kindly, we are disappointed and > we have aversion. Then we can see that conceit conditions annoyance and > aversion. Ph: Then there are the moments when people speak kindly in a way that fuels conceit. Yesterday I walked in the park, but instead of finding myself staying in the moment I was thinking about DSG and how I have been praised recently. For example, you said "very good discussion" about the thread with talks with RobK. I am communicating directly with the very person whose Dhamma books I am reading with great interest and she praised me! Now, that needn't give me conceit, it can give me confidence balanced with wisdom. Confidence balanced with wisdom is a point RobK stressed. But the conceit arises so naturally. N:> Through satipatthana we learn that life truly exists in one moment. When > there are conditions for metta it arises, but it cannot last. Ph: "This too shall pass." I wonder who said that? Is it from the Bible? I find it pops into my mind a lot these days, not only in the unpleasant moments when I'm tired or irritable, but in the moments when life seems very blissful and I feel how healthy and energetic I am, how full of purpose. This too shall pass. N:>There are > bound to be many akusala cittas in between the moments of kusala cittas. Ph: I have let go of the wrong understanding that I could fix my mind on wholesome mental states and keep them that way. I am very interested in the 4 right exertions, but now I see that when it is said that the monk maintains wholesome thoughts that have arisen, it is not talking about an act of control of thought like I thought when I first read i. Or do I see that? I have only begin to study and reflect, so it is too early to say. There may indeed be aspects of control within right view. I will keep my mind open to various viewpoints. Metta, Phil 33743 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep A thought occurs to me that you have probably already considered. In case not, here goes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Where in the body of Sutta is the fourth factor of "practice in > accordance with the Dhammma" defined as "satipatthana" and > satipatthana only? [snip] i would very much > like to see such a passage to read it for myself. I recall an exchange between Victor and Ken H in which they were quoting sutta extracts to each other. However, each beleived that the other's sutta extract actually supported his own view. It seems to me that the difference is not so much the words the suttas use, but how they are read. Do you read the words literally and give them their "natural" meaning (as far as this can be done one language removed from the original)? Do you need to read the words against a context (such as the nature of the physical audience)? Do you permit of meanings on only one level or several all at once? These are real issues as evidenced by the suttas (discussed at length with Victor in another thread) about when teachings need to be drawn out and when they don't. You know all this far better than I do and, indeed, have been discussing aspects with Ken H eg about "tortured" or unnecessarily convoluted interpretations. If Ken H provides you with an "express" sutta reference that can only possibly be read in the way he proposes, well and good for him. If he cannot do so (and he has failed so far), can we determine that ipso facto he is wrong? I must confess to being perplexed about the view (not necessarily yours) that "everything is in the suttas". I'm sure it is ... but how to draw the meaning out to my level of understanding is the more tricky part. Sorry for rambling. I enjoy your posts very much and get a lot out of them. With best wishes Andrew 33744 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Temperature for beginners Hello all I am starting to see the way mental factors come and go - there are moments of lobha and dosa that are quite easy to see. However, I have no sense of understanding what rupa is really about. There is no need to worry about this. Understanding will come gradually, or won't. But let me mention temperature. I've found that this is something I've been becoming aware of, without intending to, maybe because it is so fluid. There is heat when I'm walking surrounded by concrete, then I go in the park and feel coolness from the trees. Heat when a train pulls into the station, then coolness returns when it pulls away. Just now, coolness from a breeze through my window. Also, it is relatively easy to see how there is aversion or attachment arising with these moments of temperature change. In the collection of the Buddha's teaching that I mentionned in talk with Rob K, kind of a Gideon-like thing that they leave in hotel rooms in Japan, there was something about when it's unpleasantly hot, thinking of having the cool wisdom of the Buddha, and when it's unpleasantly cold, thinking of having the warm compassion of the Buddha. Moments of aversion to temperature serving as a stimulus for consideration of the Buddha's qualities. Has anyone heard of that before? I don't really trust that book. Metta, Phil 33745 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 5:33pm Subject: Re: Temperature for beginners and tea Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > However, I have no sense of understanding what rupa is really > about. There is no need to worry about this. Understanding will come > gradually, or won't. But let me mention temperature. I've found that > this is something I've been becoming aware of, without intending to, > maybe because it is so fluid. There is heat when I'm walking > surrounded by concrete, then I go in the park and feel coolness from > the trees. Heat when a train pulls into the station, then coolness > returns when it pulls away. Just now, coolness from a breeze through > my window. > > Also, it is relatively easy to see how there is aversion or > attachment arising with these moments of temperature change. ===== There is mind (nama) and there is stuff that is not mind (rupa); I hesitate to use the commonly applied term "matter" because rupa is much more than that. At the moment, I am having a cup of tea. The word "tea" is a conventional reality; useful for exchanging concepts but having no ultimate reality of its own. If I want to break tea down into component parts, there are a few ways of doing it. Different ways of breaking tea down into component parts come from different perspectives. From the perspective of the chemist, there is water and a bunch of chemicals that I can't name. Clearly, breaking tea into water and chemicals that I can't name is of limited practical value. From the perspective of the physicist, there are atoms with electrons, protons and neutrons. As I recall from my days studying elementry particle physics, the electrons, protons and neutrons can be further broken down into even smaller particles, the names of which I can't remember. Clearly, breaking tea into atomic or subatomic particles is of limited practical value. From the Buddhist perspective, there are multiple rupas which impinge on the sense doors; there is a visible object which comes in through the eye door, there is temperature that comes in through the body- sense door, there is hardness that comes in through the body-sense door, there is pressure that comes in through the body-sense door, there is flavour that comes in through the tongue door, there is odour that comes in through the nose door. In fact, the only sense door that this conventional reality called "tea" does not impinge upon is the ear door. The Buddhist perspective is incredibly practical and useful if one's objective is to understand the nature of the mind (as opposed to brewing a cup of tea or creating an atomic bomb). ===== > > In the collection of the Buddha's teaching that I mentionned in > talk with Rob K, kind of a Gideon-like thing that they leave in hotel > rooms in Japan, there was something about when it's unpleasantly hot, > thinking of having the cool wisdom of the Buddha, and when it's > unpleasantly cold, thinking of having the warm compassion of the > Buddha. Moments of aversion to temperature serving as a stimulus for > consideration of the Buddha's qualities. Has anyone heard of that > before? I don't really trust that book. ===== Reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha is good. Using everyday triggers, such has temperature, seems like as good an approach as any. As Rob K and many others on DSG are quick to point out, one doesn't need "formal meditation" as a trigger. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I will likely be coming to Tokyo for a few days at the end of the month. Is this where you live? Please reply off-list to my email address. 33746 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:22pm Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 6 Worldly ambition Phil: The next thing I was going to ask you about was ambition. (meaning worldly ambition) I?fm so consumed now by my interest in Dhamma. I mean, from morning until night. I almost think it?fs a kind of mid-life crisis or something. A wholesome one, maybe. Rob: It?fs because of accumulations. You can?ft stop right effort coming up. Someone else could try and have right effort until the cows come home, and not have one bit of right effort. And have all wrong effort. Right effort is arising for you a lot. Because there are conditions there. You might even try to stop it, but you can?ft. Phil: Can I give you an example? Yesterday morning when I woke up...you know the feeling when you wake up sometimes, and your mind leaps to try to figure out what day it is. You know, and if it?fs a work day... Rob: It doesn?ft happen so often. It used to happen when I was young, after a night?fs drinking. Phil: So, yesterday I woke up and my mind starting jumping around to figure out what day it was, and I realized it was Wednesday, my day off, and I had this rising feeling of joy, which is such an intense moment of lobha, really. Right from the moment I woke up I had a kind of insight. Rob: Good. Did you know it was lobha? Phil: Yeah. Immediately. Rob: It?fs samalobha though. Not asama. Not right. Sama means normal. Normal lobha. Asamalobha is the very bad type of lobha when you want to steal. But samalobha. We live by samalobha. If we didn?ft have samalobha, we couldn?ft live life. Phil: And that?fs what accumulates rather than leading to transgressions, right? Rob: Yeah. It?fs just normal lobha. It?fs like you enjoy the taste of good food. You enjoy the taste of cream in your coffee. Samalobha. It?fs not bad. I mean, it?fs akusala citta. And it?fs bad in that sense. But it?fs not causing khamma that?fs going to,you know, take you to hell or something. It?fs natural. You can?ft stop it. Phil: And I can see how I could go too far in thinking about it. For example, I took the train the other day, we went to Kamakura, there was a beautiful sea, and I noticed a woman across the car from me gazing at the sea with a smile on her face...and I thought ?gthere is lobha there.?h Rob: Yeah, but normal lobha. Normal lobha. Phil: I know, but I find myself looking at other people?fs behaviour, and I find it?fs easier to...hopefully it?fs just a mirror to my own. Rob: Yeah, yeah. If it?fs a mirror it?fs ok. I mean, everything in life can help us, if we have right view. Can show us, the Dhamma is so true for everybody. Phil: So, as for this ?gcan it be stopped...?h Rob: It never will. Phil: Yeah, but I really have to, somehow, reconnect to my ambition as a writer. Rob: Is that samalobha do you think, or asamalobha? Your ambition to be a good writer. Phil: That would be asamalobha. That would be a more dangerous form. Rob: No, that?fs samalobha, because...you know, before I met Khun Sujin and Nina and that, I was a very serious student. I mean, when I met Khun Sujin I left my children in New Zealand, I went to a monastery. I?fd written to Nina about Khun Sujin?fs address and had arranged to meet her, but I?fd also arranged for this monastery. I?fd stayed at this monastery a year, a year and half before for about 4 months. A vipassana temple, you know, where you don?ft talk to anyone, you just live like a monk. And I went back to this temple, and they were happy. I was going to help out with teaching the foreigners, and I could stay there as long as I wanted. There was one westerner there, he?fd been there for 15 years, but he didn?ft like talking to guests, and they wanted me to help out with talking, about abhidhamma, and vipassana. And I was feeling very, you know, I?fm just like the Buddha. I left my child and wife and everything,I?fm like this really genki (energetic, cheerfully sincere in Japanese) Dhamma student. And I met Khun Sujin two weeks later. I went up to see her two weeks later in Bangkok, and she just talked about the present moment. I mean, she knew my teacher. They knew each other very well, actually. And she just said, ?gWell, seeing now. Is it different than when you were in the temple? Or is it the same as now??h And in fact, I knew it was the same. But it just...anyway, things happened, and I went back to the temple after a week or so of talking to Khun Sujin, and I just couldn?ft do it anymore. I couldn?ft have the same enthusiasm. And I went to Hong Kong and stayed with Sarah and Jon for a couple of weeks or so on. Then I went back to New Zealand, to my family. And things happened. And I was unemployed. I?fd been unemployed for awhile, and the idea of having a career was heretical to my thinking, because I thought real dhamma students live in caves, or live in log cabins. I had a little caravan type thing up in the bush, and I used to live half the time there, half the time with my family. But I kept corresponding with Nina and going back to Thailand to see Khun Sujin. Eventually I went back to university. I realized the Dhamma is everywhere, all the time. Got a Master?fs Degree. And now I?fm an associate-professor at a university. I mean, if I hadn?ft met Khun Sujin, I?fd probably be living in a log cabin, thinking that I had to do that to be a real serious Dhamma student. Now I don?ft feel that anymore. I feel I?fm just as serious as I ever was. Phil: And it?fs more real. Rob: Probably there?fs more lobha in my life. But the understanding is still there. I feel that the understanding?fs still there. When you read the scriptures, like in the Dhammapada, the Buddha says?gIf this person had become a monk when he was 25, he would be an Arahat, or if he?fd stayed as a lay person but listened to the Dhamma from when he was 25 he would have been Anagami, and he would have been the richest man in all of India or something. You see these people,they?fre not unsuccessful, the lay people who listen to Buddhism, they?fre not unsuccessful people, generally. They can be quite ambitious. 33747 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:40pm Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K pt. 6 Worldly ambition Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Phil: The next thing I was going to ask you about was ambition. > (meaning worldly ambition) I?fm so consumed now by my interest in > Dhamma. I mean, from morning until night. I almost think it?fs a > kind of mid-life crisis or something. A wholesome one, maybe. The following was summarized from Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda's booklet, "Is it Wrong to be Ambitious?" Advice for the Laymen ===================== Buddhism is misinterpreted and misunderstood by many people. The Buddha clearly recognized two classes of people: those who had renounced the world and those who chose to follow the life of householders. Certain precepts and observances that the Buddha prescribed are specifically meant for those who have renounced the worldly life. Some people have mixed these up with the precepts meant for householders. For those who have renounced the worldly life, there is one way to develop selfless ambition. For those who are still attached to the world as householders, there is another way. For instance, during the Buddha's time, many rich people who enjoyed their mundane pleasures approached the Buddha, and told Him that it was difficult for them to renounce the world. They had worldly commitments, family obligations and many other duties to fulfill. They requested the Buddha to lay down a suitable religious way of life for them to practice. The Buddha did not ridicule them; for He knew that not everyone was so ready to give up worldly pleasures. The Teacher who had renounced absolutely everything for His own Enlightenment knew the nature of worldly attachment. Renunciation must only be undertaken when realization appears in the mind. Otherwise, there will be feelings of disappointment or frustration. Those who make a premature renunciation may return to the lay life. So we have to wait until such realization appears in our mind. The Buddha's Advice for Householders ==================================== The first happiness atthi-sukha is to enjoy the economic security of wealth acquired by just and righteous means; the second bhoga-sukha is spending that wealth liberally on oneself, one's family, friends and relatives, and on meritorious deeds; the third anana-sukha is to be free from debts; the fourth happiness anavajja-sukha is to live a faultless and pure and blameless life committing no evil in thought, word or deed. When you come to know that you have earned something honestly, the happiness that you gain through your accumulated wealth develops confidence in the household life. Some people who go on earning and accumulating wealth neither experience happiness nor use wealth in a proper way. According to the Buddha, we can experience worldly happiness by using what we have earned in a reasonable way, following basic religious principles. It is not correct to say that Buddhists should not experience worldly happiness. Certain harmless cultural amusements and entertainments relax the mind and help reduce tension. Human emotions can be satisfied without disturbing the peace and happiness of others. Many cultural performances in Asia actually developed through the influence of Buddhism. Middle Path =========== The Buddha was a most active and energetic religious teacher. He advised people to use their skill and knowledge in their daily life. A Buddhist should not lead a lazy and easy life and blame it on Buddhism for any of his / her failures. A good Buddhist has the quality of V´riya - energy. Buddhists must constantly strive for perfection. They must not delay doing something by finding excuses like it is too hot or it is too cold. The Buddha's advice to lay people was not to go to either extremes of sensual pleasure or self- torture to practice a religion. Everyone must try to lead a happy, harmless and peaceful life. Buddhism is known as the Middle Path. You find it difficult to maintain absolute honesty, kindness and tolerance. It is also true that very few can become perfect religious persons in the household life. Your responsibilities, obligations and duties can disturb your mind. They provoke you to do certain things that go against your conscience. If you try to be a religious fanatic as a layperson, your attitude may not appeal to your family members, friends and others. If you follow Buddhist rules that are meant specifically for monks who lead a monastic life, your associates may feel embarrassed; and they may regard you as a nuisance or an eccentric. Therefore, try to lead a sensible life by observing reasonable religious principles. This is how you avoid becoming a religious fanatic. If you go to extremes, not only will people laugh at you, they will also get a wrong idea of what Buddhism teaches. If you are not fanatical, you can live and work even with other religionists. The Buddha has pointed out that you must know your limit in everything. Try to practice religious principles that are universally accepted. As lay Buddhists, your duty is to lead a normal religious life while fulfilling your family obligations. If you neglect your responsibilities towards your family, you may experience problems. Others may think of you as a useless person. You must know how to adjust your way of life to the country and society you live in without going against the important cultural and traditional practices of the majority, if they are harmless. You should also co-operate with others without behaving as if your religion is the only one that has the right to exist. Buddhism is a religion of freedom. It respects the freedom of other religions. Your commonsense and understanding are important in practicing a religion. Nature of Ambition ================== Every person entertains some kind of ambition. When we refer to the Buddha, He too had an ambition that was implanted in His mind long ago. He continued to develop that ambition, life after life, until He achieved what He wanted. But this ambition is best described as an aspiration. When we read the Buddha's discourses, we can understand how He had worked to reach the goal He aspired to. He has revealed this to us by referring to previous birth stories. He also explained the nature of the great virtues and discipline that He had to cultivate to achieve His aspiration. When we compare our ambition with the Buddha's aspiration we can see a vast difference. This is because our ambition is primarily based on desire and anxiety bound to worldly pleasure. On the other hand, the Buddha's aspiration was to free Himself from selfishness in order to serve others. We develop our ambition by disturbing another's happiness. That is how we create enormous problems and misery in this world. We are willing to do any kind of evil or wicked deed for our own pleasure. From the Buddhist point of view, this kind of selfish ambition is not justifiable. What we should constantly strive to do is to develop the higher kind of ambition by working very hard to obtain freedom, happiness and liberation from our existing worldly problems. This ambition is harmless and reasonable. However, this is not the final goal: we must not be satisfied with these temporary mundane ambitions. Our ultimate goal should be freedom from suffering - Nirvana, where all ambitions cease and the reality of existence seen. Rendering Service to Others =========================== While working for our own happiness, freedom and salvation, we have to render some service for the benefit and happiness of others. The Buddha adopted this type of aspiration with deep conviction and boundless compassion. Whilst working for His own salvation, He served others in every possible way. He continued His service to humanity by sacrificing His sensual pleasures, by cultivating all the good qualities and virtues and by eradicating evil thoughts to maintain purity in the mind. This is the way He developed His selfless ambition to gain His enlightenment. He never cultivated it for His own benefit but for the welfare and liberation of every living being. He developed boundless compassion and wisdom and expressed them by word and deed. But our ambitions, which are selfish in nature, can create much misery. Therefore, we have to learn how to direct our ambitions in such a way as to relieve the suffering of others. Such ambitions are wholesome because they contribute to the greater good of mankind. Metta, Rob M :-) 33748 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt. 5 Straight to deep Dhamma? Hello Philip, Thank you. I highlight what I like: op 08-06-2004 12:30 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: R: But if you don't get to the heart of the > Dhamma, about the present moment, about the conditionality, about the > matter, about the six sense doors, you might as well teach those > other philosophies. and: R: I mean, in my class I talk immediately, I walk about > Buddhism. What is real? What is happening now? What is reality now? > And they say ?gah, I'fm in this room and I say, you > know ?gno, what > is absolutely real? Seeing, hearing, tasting, touch. Just straight > from the beginning. And the people that have the tendency, the > ability to understand it start to get interested, and the ones who > don't, don't. > Rob: Teaching the deep Dhamma. I mean you can hear that sort of thing > in many different philosophies. I mean, Khun Sujin sometimes gets > criticized in Thailand because she is always straight to the > deepest part of the Dhamma, about annata, about realities.... The Buddha said > the other teachers teach metta, they teach compassion, they teach > right view, khamma and vipaka to a certain degree. But it's only > the Buddha that teaches annata. And human life is short. So those who > have the ability to understand the deep parts, she wants to help > them. N: I am studying now the Brahma viharas, but I find that Kh Sujin helps so much with the practice of them together with satipatthana. She reminds: they are cetasikas, non self. At the same time we learn to apply them. There is nothing dry and technical about nama and rupa, and anatta. There is a balance between understanding ultimate realities and our social life. A basic understanding of anatta is essential for true, sincere friendship, Lodewijk stressed. That is what we feel when meeting Kh Sujin in Thailand: here is the association with the right people, and this is an important condition to develop understanding leading to the elimination of defilements. Lodewijk and I spoke about people being so oppressed by their clinging, their desire going on and on without end, and Lodewijk said that association with the right person is so important. What kind of friends do they have, they should ask themselves. Kh Sujin gives many sound, helpful advices to people who come to her with their problems. She explains anatta but there is always the connection with daily life. Nina. 33749 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Hi Agrios, I have the impression that this is just a misunderstanding and that this can be cleared, like all misunderstandings people may have about the works of our greatest commentator. Can I do something? Nina. op 08-06-2004 15:09 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > I am cutting out whole Buddhaghosa part. > Buddhaghosa wrote some books, done some good job and some bad. Naturally. 33750 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and calm Hi Jon, Sarah, Howard, Sukin, op 08-06-2004 10:12 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...:> .... > S: Certainly my eye’ hasn’t seen any discomfort’ N: I did not keep the post but remember: who is concentrated sees things as they really are. Concentration as proximate cause. I thought of it today. When I read the word samadhi, concentration, I know that it often has the meaning of calm. I am not so inclined to think of trying and trying with all might to focus on one object. Suppose I have excruciating doubts or I am in agony with worries, then at such moments there is no calm, no understanding. We can check. But we can see worry, doubt, calm and understanding as momentary, they are, aren't they? By conditions awareness and understanding can arise and there is also calm, for a very short moment. There can be more moments of calmand understanding after that, arising again and again, there may be moments with reflection and awareness, and many things of the teachings may become clearer by understanding. However, no forcing here, it is all by conditions, and no rules. I do not know whether this is helpful, Nina. 33751 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:39pm Subject: Re: Full Control !/Question Hi friend Christine: > I am not good at finding refs. in the Visuddhi Magga. Purification Vism 7 = Vism [7] = side 7 in pali version. Is shown on middle of pages in square brackets [7] in all english versions. It's in chapter I about morality. For referencing, which admittedly is somewhat complex: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/abbrev.html#suttaref > Or, alternatively, can someone explain how there > can be control when there is no self to control? Activity can be controlled! Mental Action can be controlled! Verbal Action can be controlled! Bodily Action can be controlled! Who controls ? Nobody controls ! Morality restrains... Understanding restrains... Rules restrains... Tolerance restrains... Purificating effort restrains... These immaterial mental & selfless phenomena are the cause of control!! Like the programs in a computer control the behaviour of the computer yet there is no self or person 'inside' the programs ... nor the computer ;-) : - ] 33752 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:45pm Subject: Abstract notions = concepts ! >They are not even a Being, they are just abstract notions. Well noted! Sadhu! All phenomena are Abstract Notions = Mental States ... Since Mind is the primary projector of all states ... Whether internal or external! Whether material or immaterial! Whether physical or mental! Whether past, present or future! : - ] 33753 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: Full Control !/Question Dear Bhante and TG, Thank you for your replies which I found very helpful. I guess the language used isn't critical - it's the Right Understanding of anatta at all times that is. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Hi friend Christine: > > > I am not good at finding refs. in the Visuddhi Magga. > > Purification Vism 7 = Vism [7] = side 7 in pali version. > Is shown on middle of pages in square brackets [7] in all > english versions. It's in chapter I about morality. > > For referencing, which admittedly is somewhat complex: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/abbrev.html#suttaref > > > > Or, alternatively, can someone explain how there > > can be control when there is no self to control? > > Activity can be controlled! > Mental Action can be controlled! > Verbal Action can be controlled! > Bodily Action can be controlled! > > Who controls ? Nobody controls ! > Morality restrains... > Understanding restrains... > Rules restrains... > Tolerance restrains... > Purificating effort restrains... > These immaterial mental & selfless > phenomena are the cause of control!! > Like the programs in a computer > control the behaviour of the computer > yet there is no self or person 'inside' > the programs ... nor the computer ;-) > > : - ] ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > The way I would understand this is... "control" here is not meant in a broad > absolute sense; it is meant to illustrate specific things that help keep one > on the right Path. I think it would be over-reaching to read this to mean that > there is some sort of "self-control" operating among phenomena. After all, > how could *Vinaya Rules* have any "control?" They are not even a Being, they > are just abstract notions. > > TG 33754 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 4 Hello Icaro, Thank you for this reply. No remorse sounds good to me. :-) If the soulless pc program "Railroad Tycoon" thinks there is a railroad from the Northern Territory directly East into Queensland without travelling South then East then North then it clearly has Wrong View. I think the only thing to do is to get into the Source Code and make some Compassionate Adjustments. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Hi christine! > > At the Visuddgimagga, Chpt.1, we get Buddhaghosa's affirmation > that the main end of Sila is the virtue of "No remorse", or absence > of griefing about the decisions one can take or do about others or > his/herself. The offender and the sufferer of offense are at the same > ground for Sila and the main purpose of the true practicioner is the > purity of mind. > The serious person that can take the Noble path learns forgiveness > taming at first his own mind, never thinking "He abused me, he > injured me, he robbed me" (Cf. The Dhammapada, Chpt.1) and > cultivating such "no Remorse" state of mind, as described by > Buddhaghosa. > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > P.S.: Your railroad maps helped me very much, Chris! I managed to > link Darwin to Alice Springs and Adelaide...but the game urged me to > go straight to Brisbane and I went to the ropes ...fortunately only > at the "Railroad tycoon"PC Game! 33755 From: Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 1:05am Subject: My Understanding of the Sankhitta Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63) Hi, all - I've come across the following sutta which seems to address the practice of the divine abidings in a rather freshly formulated way. I insert at points my understanding of what is being discussed. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63 Sankhitta Sutta In Brief (Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Translator's note: This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of jhana. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." "May the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma in brief! May the One Well-gone teach me the Dhamma in brief! It may well be that I will understand the Blessed One's words. It may well be that I will become an heir to the Blessed One's words." "Then, monk, you should train yourself thus: 'My mind will be established inwardly, well-composed. No evil, unskillful qualities, once they have arisen, will remain consuming the mind.' That's how you should train yourself. -------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing calls for an initial establishment of calm and wholesomeness (kusala). ---------------------------------------- "Then you should train yourself thus: 'Good-will, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Then establishing a mind based in metta ------------------------------------------ When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, ----------------------------------------- Howard: First jhana. ----------------------------------------- you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, ------------------------------------------ Howard: Second jhana. ------------------------------------------ you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. ------------------------------------------ Howard: All the jhanas through to the 4th. (The order of 1 - 4 is not being strictly adhered to here.) ------------------------------------------- "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'Compassion, as my awareness-release... Appreciation, as my awareness-release... Equanimity, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. ------------------------------------------- Howard: This seems to refer to developments parallel to the previous metta-based approach, namely: karuna-based, mudita-based, and upekkha-based. -------------------------------------------- When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Now, from the base of equanimity established in the 4th jhana, the practice turns to analysis of dhammas and vipassana bhavana. ------------------------------------------------- "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should train yourself: 'I will remain focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort." Then that monk, having been admonished by an admonishment from the Blessed One, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right side, and left. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realiz ing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became another one of the Arahants. Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33756 From: Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 1:40am Subject: The Upanissa Sutta and Tranquillity, Concentration, and Liberation Hi, all - The following is the final, summation portion, of the Upanissa Sutta. The part from the outset through suffering is the standard creation-of-suffering presentation of dependent arising. What follows, starting with suffering and moving on to faith (saddha) and eventually to the destruction of the cankers displays a not-so-standard presentation of dependent cessation and well displays the relationship among tranquillity, concentration, and liberation. With metta, Howard "Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers). "Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean -- in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33757 From: Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Full Control !/Question In a message dated 6/8/04 10:55:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bhikkhu_samahita@y... writes: Who controls ? Nobody controls ! Morality restrains... Understanding restrains... Rules restrains... Tolerance restrains... Purificating effort restrains... These immaterial mental & selfless phenomena are the cause of control!! Like the programs in a computer control the behaviour of the computer yet there is no self or person 'inside' the programs ... nor the computer ;-) ======== Since the Buddha throughout the suttas talks about effort, control, etc., and also teaches anatta, there must be a way for both control and non-self to co-exist. One way to explain this is our consciously controlling what we do during the first part of our path and then have accumulations gained during that phase carry over to the latter part of our path where we just do what we have practiced previously without thought or control. This is similar to the jazz musician who forces himself to practice the scales every day, painstakingly playing notes that fit under a chord, etc. Then, at a point in his development he can just react to the musical situation without thought or control. (As I write this, I think I have said this all before on this list. To wrap up quickly...) I think those of us with a few vipassana meditation sessions and retreats under our belts reach a point at times when all that we have practiced before is automatic and happens without control. We see the ultimates in our breath of temperature, pressure, etc. We differentiate vedana out from all that is happening. The bell rings and we just get up off our cushion to do walking meditation without our having to control or manage anything. And so on. jack 33758 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Brahmaviharas Hello Philip, op 07-06-2004 00:48 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > >> N: I shall quote from the tape which is a lecture on the > Brahmaviharas given by >> A. Sujin to police officers. They took a great interest in the > practice of >> the Brahma-viharas while performing their duty as police officer. Now I understand, though, that it must > start with at least an intellectual understanding of annata. > Otherwise, there is the idea of a self that is being kind - such a > wonderful person I am! N: This is the most important, and we see here that the Buddha's teachings are different from all other teachings. Less self involvement is a helpful condition for pure metta. > Ph: It is a 40 minute class, and > quite often for the first 20 minutes or so there is irritation. But > there is inevitably kindness arising by the end of the class, or half- > way through. It seems to me that metta takes over from dosa - almost > always. I never have classes that end on an irritated note. N: Here is a situation, but in reality cittas change so fast, then kusala then akusala, then indeterminate, like seeing or hearing. By satipatthana we can become an understanding person. A lot of noisy youngsters, but what is their background, education, accumulations? We know so little about others. Their parents' attitude when they were very young influences greatly how they are behaving now. When we understand the reasons why we behave in such or such way ourselves, we also understand others more. There was not akusala all the time, you were giving knowledge, a kind of dana. Ph: Now, is there any chance that I am taking for kusala what is in > reality akusala here? N: We all do, we have so much ignorance. .....(snipped) > Ph: Do you mean "if someone doesn't see that the other person is an > object of attachment?" Aren't we usually blinded to our lobha? Again, > I am getting picky with language. N: One can see the other person as an object of attachment or even desire. This can happen in a relationship. Different degrees. I use the word object, thinking of the citta that takes an object. Ph: In any case, this is a radically interesting idea. That attachment > to others shows a lack of respect for them, and for the Buddha. Only > by seeing through to annata can we truly respect the other person. N: When making a coarse joke, speaking harshly, is the citta meek, soft, gentle? No respect either. Not helping others when help is required, stealing or lying, is that respect to others or to the Buddha, our Teacher? Not to speak of grave misconduct as trade in women, abuse of children, etc. There is no respect here for one's fellowmen. >> N: The connection between sila and metta as explained by A. Sujin I > find an >> inspiring way of considering abstention from akusala in action, > speech and >> thoughts. Ph: But can we *really* help people to have kusala cittas? N: Yes!!! We can become very inventive, we do our best with kusala citta. When I lived in Thailand, A. Sujin helped me and others non-stop to have kusala citta. When she wanted to offer something to a monk she handed it to me: you offer it. I knelt down and so learnt to pay respect to the monks. She reminded me of kusala with regard to many seemingly small matters. (See my Time with A. Sujin). Remember, when knowing more about the different ways of kusala there will be more opportunities, like not hiding your kusala so that others can rejoice. When someone wants to help we usually say, don't bother. I learnt from a Thai friend: she said very sincerely: give me an opportunity to do kusala for you. So both parties are reminded of kusala citta. It is kusala citta, not my kusala. I told Lodewijk your question and he said: tell them I do some washing up so that you have more time for writing. I write because I do not want A. Sujin's excellent words to stay just in Thailand. Most of her talks are in Thai. When I have written about the Brahma viharas I can read it to Lodewijk at lunch. In the evening after dinner I read to him from Wholesome Deeds. Also discuss it. I read that parents are like brahma and like devas and deserve the highest esteem for all their excellent qualities. I had to discuss this with Lodewijk at length. A. Sujin said, parents introduced us to the world, so that now, being a human, you can learn the Dhamma. This is true. We also try to talk to my father about good qualities of others, and sometimes about life and death. Try to help, anyway. Nina. P.S. I like all your remarks and shall keep them. Whenever I have time I come back to them, but slowly. I do not feel any obligation, but just like to elaborate here and there. 33759 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 10:55am Subject: Tiika Vis 81, no 2, Pali Tiika Vis 81, no 2, Pali Pali -English: Pali: Vis:81. itaresu pana ya.mki~nci vedayitalakkha.na.m, sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa vedanaakkhandho, ya.mki~nci sa~njaananalakkha.na.m, sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa sa~n~naakkhandho, ya.mki~nci abhisa"nkhara.nalakkha.na.m, sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa sa"nkhaarakkhandho, ya.mki~nci vijaananalakkha.na.m, sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa vi~n~naa.nakkhandho veditabbo. tattha yasmaa vi~n~naa.nakkhandhe vi~n~naate itare suvi~n~neyyaa honti, tasmaa vi~n~naa.nakkhandha.m aadi.m katvaa va.n.nana.m karissaama. Tiika: Ya.m ki~nciiti anavasesapariyaadaanadiipakena padadvayena vedayitassa bahubhedata.m dassento vuccamaana.m raasa.t.tha.m ulli"ngeti. As to the expression, whatever (has the characteristic of being felt), he showed the meaning of khandha or heap that was classified in many ways by defining it completely with two expressions. Vedayita.m aaramma.narasaanubhavana.m lakkha.na.m etassaati vedayitalakkha.na.m. As to the expression, the characteristic of being felt, this means that it has the characteristic of being felt, that it experiences the "taste² of the object. (Sabba.m ta.m dhammajaatanti adhippaayo,) pubbe vaa ruupakkhandhakathaaya.m vutta.m adhikaarato aanetvaa sambandhitabba.m. .....or what was formerly said in the teaching on rupakkhandha, should be arranged here and connected. Ekato katvaati atiitaadibhedabhinna.m sabba.m ta.m buddhiyaa ekato katvaa. As to the expression, all taken together, this means that he, in his wisdom, has summarized all that he has classified as past, etc. Eva~nhi raasa.t.thassa sambhavo. Thus this effects the meaning of heap or category. Niilaadibhedassa aaramma.nassa sa~njaanana.m, ³niila.m piita.m diigha.m rassan²ti (dha. sa. 615) ca aadinaa sa~n~nuppaadavasena jaanana.m gaha.na.m lakkha.na.m etassaati sa~njaananalakkha.na.m. "Characteristic of perceiving" means that it has as its characteristic the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc., and the knowing, the apprehending of it by arousing the perception of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so on. Abhisa"nkhara.na.m aayuuhana.m byaapaaraapatti, abhisandahana.m vaa, Forming is accumulating, acquisition of the task, or coordinating, ubhayathaapi cetanaapadhaanataaya sa"nkhaarakkhandhassa eva.m vutta.m ³abhisa"nkhara.nalakkha.nan²ti. and because volition is principal in both ways, it is said of the aggregate of formations that it has the characteristic of forming. Tathaa hi suttantabhaajaniiye sa"nkhaarakkhandha.m vibhajantena bhagavataa ³cakkhusamphassajaa cetanaa²ti-aadinaa (vibha. 21) cetanaava vibhattaa. In the Suttanta division of the Book of Analysis, in the analysis of the khandha of formations, the Blessed One expounded volition thus: (Minitabbavatthu.m naa.liyaa minamaano puriso viya) yena sa~njaananaakaaravisi.t.thena aakaarena visaya.m ga.nhaati, ta.m aaramma.nuupaladdhisa"nkhaata.m vijaanana.m lakkha.na.m etassaati vijaananalakkha.na.m. ....As to the expression, it has the characteristic of cognizing", this means that it has as its characteristic that kind of knowing called apprehension of an object in a mode in which the objective field is apprehended differently from the mode of perceiving. Itare vedanaakkhandhaadayo suvi~n~neyyaa hontiiti vi~n~naa.nena ekuppaadaadibhaavato, samaanajaati-aadivibhaagato ca. As to the expression, since the rest, beginning with the aggregate of feeling, is easy to understand (when the consciousness aggregate has been understood), this means that this is so because of its single arising etc, and because it is of the same nature etc. in the classification. ***** Nina 33760 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 10:55am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3 The Abhidhamma describes what is occurring in our life now: seeing, visible object, like or dislike of what is seen. This is also described in the Suttas, there is actually Abhidhamma in all the Suttas. The Abhidhamma and the Suttanta teach us about the dhammas that appear, they point to insight. Insight is the development of direct understanding of the dhamma appearing now, be it seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, or any other dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. Everything that is real is dhamma. We hear the sound of a car or of a bird and we immediately think about concepts such as car or bird. Sound is real, it impinges on the earsense. It has a characteristic that can be directly known when it appears. Car or bird are only objects of thinking, they are concepts. When we listen to the Dhamma [1] we learn about ultimate realities: citta, consciousness, cetasika, mental factors accompanying citta, and rúpa, physical phenomena. They are conditioned dhammas, they arise each because of their own conditions and then they fall away. Nibbåna is the paramattha dhamma that is unconditioned, it does not arise and fall away. We cannot direct the conditions for the phenomena that arise, but we can develop more understanding of the fact that whatever arises is conditioned. Knowing that there are conditions for akusala helps not to keep on reproaching ourselves: I should not have akusala. There is also conceit when we think: ³ ¹I¹ should be better, I am too good to have akusala². We could not develop understanding without listening to the Dhamma, because the Dhamma is the Buddha¹s teaching. Nobody else taught the three characteristics of all conditioned dhammas: their nature of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. When we have listened to the Dhamma and we carefully consider what we heard, we can develop understanding ourselves without being dependent on another person. We should investigate the different dhammas that appear in daily life, and this is the condition for beginning to be aware of their characteristics. One of my friends in Bangkok remarked that there is no other way to develop understanding, and that if we think that there is, it is just lobha, attachment. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings² (Book of the Fives, Ch XVI, § 4, The confounding of Saddhamma) that the Buddha said to the monks: Monks, these five things lead to the confounding, the disappearance of Saddhamma. What five? Herein, monks, carelessly the monks hear Dhamma; carelessly they master it; carelessly they bear it in mind; carelessly they test the good [the meaning] of the things borne in mind; knowing the good and knowing the Dhamma, carelessly they go their ways [practise] in Dhamma by Dhamma. Verily, monks, these are the five things that lead to the confounding, the disappearance of Saddhamma. We read that if the monks carefully listen to the Dhamma, consider it and apply it, it leads to the stability of the Saddhamma (true Dhamma), to its being unconfounded, to its non-disappearance. Footnote: 1.Dhamma with a capital D has several meanings. It can mean: supramundane (lokuttara) Dhammas, that is, nibbåna and the eight lokuttara cittas that experience nibbåna. It also means the teachings of the Buddha. As to the term ³dhamma², without a capital, this refers to paramattha dhamma, ultimate reality, which is different from a concept. ***** Nina. 33761 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 10:55am Subject: Tiika vis 81, no 1 Tiika vis 81, no 1 Vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. Intro Vis 81: N: We read in the ŒDispeller of Delusion² 9I, Ch One, Classification of the Aggregates, p. 1) about the meaning of the word khandha. It can be heap (raasi) or category.<...therefore the aggregates (khandhaa) should be understood as having the characteristic of a heap. It is also permissible to say in the sense of a portion (ko.t.thaasa).> It is explained that the materiality heap is classified in eleven ways and In the same way he summarized all the different portions of the other khandhas and took these altogether in each of the other khandhas. Each of the five khandhas includes respectively different rupas, feelings, perceptions, formations (or activities) and cittas, but the Buddha classified them as just five khandhas. One khandha is rupa-khandha and four khandhas are nama- khandhas. Thus, the paramattha dhammas of citta, cetasika and rupa are classified as five khandhas. The khandha of formations or activities, sa.nkhaarakkhandha, comprises all cetasikas other than feeling and perception. We should remember that sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts. Sa.nkhaara dhamma comprises all conditioned dhammas, all rupa, citta and cetasika, whereas sa.nkhaarakkhandha comprises only fifty cetasikas. The khandhas are not abstract categories, they arise at this moment. Seeing is the khandha of consciousness, and when there is seeing, there are also the rupa that is eyebase, the rupa of visible object, feeling, perception, and seven cetasikas included in the khandha of formations. We take the khandhas for self, but they have no owner. Vis. 81: Among the remaining aggregates, however, whatever has the characteristic of being felt(34) should be understood, all taken together, as the feeling aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of perceiving, all taken together, as the perception aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of forming, all taken together, as the formations aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of cognizing, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate. Herein, since the rest are easy to understand when the consciousness aggregate has been understood, we shall therefore begin with the commentary on the consciousness aggregate. ----------------------- note 34 (N: this is only a summary of the Tiika). "Has the characteristic of being felt" means that it has as its characteristic what is felt, what is experienced as the "taste (stimulus)" of the object. "Characteristic of perceiving" means that it has as its characteristic the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc., and the knowing, the apprehending of it by arousing the perception of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so on. Forming (abhisa.nkhara.na) is accumulating, or it is contriving by becoming interested. And it is because volition is basic in both of these ways that the formations aggregate is said thus to have the 'characteristic of forming'. For in expounding the formations aggregate in the Suttanta-Bhaajaniya of the Vibha.nga, volition was expounded by the Blessed One thus, "Eye-contact-born volition" (Vbh. 8) and so on. "Has the characteristic of cognizing" means that it has as its characteristic that kind of knowing called apprehension of an object in a mode in which the objective field is apprehended differently from the mode of perceiving' (Pm.462). Tiika Vis. 81: English: As to the expression, whatever (has the characteristic of being felt), he showed the meaning of khandha or heap that was classified in many ways by defining it completely with two expressions. N: He defined it by the words: Whatever feeling. The word is all-inclusive. Tiika: As to the expression, the characteristic of being felt, this means that it has the characteristic of being felt, that it experiences the "taste² of the object. .....or what was formerly said in the teaching on rupakkhandha, should be arranged here and connected. N: See Intro. Just as all the different rupas classified in many ways under many aspects were summarized and all taken together as one group or khandha, evenso all the different feelings are taken all together as one khandha. And it is the same with the other khandhas. Tiika: As to the expression, all taken together, this means that he, in his wisdom, has summarized all that he has classified as past, etc. N: The khandhas are classified as past, present, future, and in several other ways. Tiika: Thus this effects the meaning of heap or category. "Characteristic of perceiving" means that it has as its characteristic the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc., and the knowing, the apprehending of it by arousing the perception of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so on. N: Saññaa, perception, recognition or remembrance, marks the object that is cognized by citta so that it can be recognized. It accompanies each citta. It accompanies, for example, seeing that sees colour, such as a blue colour, and marks it, but at the moment of seeing it is not yet defined as blue. Only in a mind-door process of cittas arising later on the colour is defined as blue. Tiika: Forming is accumulating, acquisition of the task, or coordinating, and because volition is principal in both ways, it is said of the aggregate of formations that it has the characteristic of forming. N: Of the khandha of formations, sankhaarakkhandha, volition is principal (Dispeller of Delusion, p. 22). Volition has its own task and it also coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas. Abhisa²nkhara designates volition that is kusala kamma or akusala kamma which is accumulated. It is a link in the Dependent Origination. Tiika: In the Suttanta division of the Book of Analysis, in the analysis of the khandha of formations, the Blessed One expounded volition thus: N: We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion²( § 80. p. 20) an explanation of . It is explained thus: <..the impression which makes eye-sensitivity (etc.) accompanied by impact (sapa.tigha) its basis, and arises due to visible data (etc.) accompanied by impact, is called impact-impression (pa.tighasamphassa)...> Thus, this means that volition arises in dependence on the basis (the eyesense) and the object that impinges on the eye-base, and it is the same in the case of the contacts through the other senses and the mind. It is said: In the arupa-brahma planes there is no rupa and thus no physical basis. Volition of the four planes: this refers to the four planes of citta: the plane of the sense sphere, the plane of rupa-jhanacitta, arupa-jhanacitta and lokuttara citta. Tiika: ....As to the expression, it has the characteristic of cognizing", this means that it has as its characteristic that kind of knowing called apprehension of an object in a mode in which the objective field is apprehended differently from the mode of perceiving. N: Consciousness is the principal in cognizing the object, and the cognizing of consciousness is different from remembrance or perception (sañña) which marks or recognizes the object. In Vis XIV, 3, perception has been compared to a child that sees a coin without discretion, and citta has been compared to a villager who knows more about the characteristics of the coin. Whereas pañña is like a money changer who knows everything, all details, of the coin. Tiika: As to the expression, since the rest, beginning with the aggregate of feeling, is easy to understand (when the consciousness aggregate has been understood), this means that this is so because of its single arising etc, and because it is of the same nature etc. in the classification. N: Single arising etc., this means: the four nama khandhas arise and fall away together. For them there are the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution (Dispeller, p. 23). The nama-khandhas that arise together are of the same nature (jaati) of kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. They are of the same plane of citta: sense sphere, rupa-jhana, arupa-jhana or lokuttara. Thus, if the consciousness aggregate is understood first, the other three nama khandhas will be understood more easily. ***** Nina. 33762 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Forgiving Dear Christine, I like it very much to talk about this subject. Forgiving is so good to apply between spouses, in the family and in society. op 08-06-2004 21:49 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > "We can learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of > dana, we wish > others to be free from danger." > > If one is not offended, there is nothing to forgive. N: We have to consider the cittas of the person who is wronged and the wrongdoer. There are wrongs, akusala, and there is wrongdoing, but the person who is wronged may have no aversion, like Sariputta. He forgave the monk who slandered him, and he himself even asked that monk forgiveness. The monks have to confess wrongs and forgive each other when they recite the Patimokkha. When one asks forgiveness and when one forgives the citta is humble, gentle and soft. Another benefit for the one who asks forgiveness is that he is reminded to be more careful in the future. As Icaro said, < the main purpose of the true practicioner is the purity of mind. The serious person that can take the Noble path learns forgiveness taming at first his own mind, never thinking "He abused me, he injured me, he robbed me" > Ch: If one is offended, then wouldn't that have to do with one's own > conceit and self-view? And, so it seems to me, does the idea of > judging that it is the other who needs forgiving. N: Sure, if one is offended there is conceit that conditions aversion. But asking forgiveness and forgiving is a way of kusala. No judging at all when the citta is kusala citta with benevolence. It all depends on the citta. We are worldlings, not like Sariputta. It is natural that we dislike it to be wronged. Forgiving and asking forgiveness are beneficial for both parties. Ch: How does our > forgiving someone help them to be free of danger? N: You wish well for the other person, there is benevolence. You like him to be free from worry about his fault, free from aversion. Ch:How does > one 'learn to forgive'? N: By seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. Now I shall speak about another aspect. Will you go to India? There is a good custom we observe there. At each of the holy places we ask forgiveness to the Triple Gem for our wrongs. This needs some explanation. The Buddha passed away but we can still pay respect to him, respect is with the kusala citta. Evenso can we ask him forgiveness, this intention is with the kusala citta. Remember our discussion about whether the relic of the Buddha is genuine. The answer is: it is the kusala citta that pays respect that matters. I think without the Abhidhamma we cannot understand this very well. Citta is the source of akusala and kusala. As to asking forgiveness, we can reflect on our wrongs. The highest respect to the Triple Gem is the study of the Dhamma and the practice. We can ask ourselves in how far do we have shortcomings in this, did we help others sufficiently to understand the Dhamma. Have we been neglectful in the development of kusala and satipatthana? In how far do we have shortcomings in dana and sila? Did we follow our Teacher's (the Buddha's) advice as to conduct through body and speech. We recite in Thai our asking of forgiveness. We also recite each day after the Dhamma discussion the extension of merit to departed ones who can rejoice in it. Let me know whether these thoughts are strange to you. I learnt about all this from A. Sujin. I had to ask her myself before I understood. Nina. 33763 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 11:45am Subject: Re: just Heart thing > U Silananda, Nina and I have said that the fact that mind depends on > matter is a function of the plane / world; in kama-loka and rupa- > loka, all cittas need a physical base and in arupa-loka, no cittas > need a physical base. But none of you said why it is so. I still need to study Nina's answer. Seems mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu do well without rupa and can do with as well. For me it means that it does not need any rupa. > In other words, the type of world / plane is > one of the conditions that determines the requirement for a physical > base. > If I understand your question properly you are asking, "why is this > so?" and my answer of, "it is the nature of the plane / world" seems > empty. Sorry, I don't have anything better to offer... perhaps Nina > has some insight here. And I see no reason to think it is so. It feels like I am developing some mental model here, swimming in the ocean of speculations. I don't really see reason to start thinking about some other spheres and go into them chasing that illusory rupas in my imagination. I'll stop here. > Metta, > Rob M :-) Thank you all for your karuna, Metta, Agrios. 33764 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 2:28pm Subject: Re: Forgiving Hello Nina, all, Yes, depending on conditions, I will be going to India in October - only four months away now - just injections, visas for India and Nepal etc. to arrange - and the small matter of being granted Leave from work. :-) I don't think I'll be reciting in Thai though - the English-speaking group is travelling at that time - maybe I could just manage a little Pali. :-) I think the term 'forgive' can cause misunderstanding. I come from a Christian background where the main prayer recited daily by laypeople (The Lord's Prayer) contains the words "Forgive us our debts (sins), as we forgive our debtors (those who have sinned against us)". i.e. The Deity can wipe away the consequences of wrong-doing if a person shows remorse and asks for forgiveness. [it has a condition attached to it though - 'as (i.e. in the same was as) we forgive our debtors' - and I don't think too many Christians have contemplated exactly what that means.] But in Buddhism, so I have been taught, no-one, not even a Buddha can wipe away the result of actions. "All sentient beings are the owners of their kamma, inheritors of their kamma, born of their kamma, related to their kamma, supported by their kamma. Kamma is that which divides beings into coarse and refines states." If there is no control over mindstates (cittas and cetasikas) is forgiveness (causing a kusala mindstate to arise) even possible? And what does it really mean - 'I won't hold a grudge?' Again, is this possible to control? The terms 'forebearance', 'endurance' and 'patience' (which together imo seem to equal 'courage') resonate more with me. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, > I like it very much to talk about this subject. Forgiving is so good to > apply between spouses, in the family and in society. > > op 08-06-2004 21:49 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > "We can learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of > > dana, we wish > > others to be free from danger." > > > > If one is not offended, there is nothing to forgive. > N: We have to consider the cittas of the person who is wronged and the > wrongdoer. There are wrongs, akusala, and there is wrongdoing, but the > person who is wronged may have no aversion, like Sariputta. He forgave the > monk who slandered him, and he himself even asked that monk forgiveness. The > monks have to confess wrongs and forgive each other when they recite the > Patimokkha. When one asks forgiveness and when one forgives the citta is > humble, gentle and soft. Another benefit for the one who asks forgiveness is > that he is reminded to be more careful in the future. > As Icaro said, < the main purpose of the true practicioner is the purity of > mind. The serious person that can take the Noble path learns forgiveness > taming at first his own mind, never thinking "He abused me, he injured me, > he robbed me" > > > Ch: If one is offended, then wouldn't that have to do with one's own > > conceit and self-view? And, so it seems to me, does the idea of > > judging that it is the other who needs forgiving. > N: Sure, if one is offended there is conceit that conditions aversion. But > asking forgiveness and forgiving is a way of kusala. No judging at all when > the citta is kusala citta with benevolence. It all depends on the citta. We > are worldlings, not like Sariputta. It is natural that we dislike it to be > wronged. Forgiving and asking forgiveness are beneficial for both parties. > Ch: How does our > > forgiving someone help them to be free of danger? > N: You wish well for the other person, there is benevolence. You like him to > be free from worry about his fault, free from aversion. > Ch:How does > > one 'learn to forgive'? > N: By seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. > Now I shall speak about another aspect. Will you go to India? There is a > good custom we observe there. At each of the holy places we ask forgiveness > to the Triple Gem for our wrongs. This needs some explanation. The Buddha > passed away but we can still pay respect to him, respect is with the kusala > citta. Evenso can we ask him forgiveness, this intention is with the kusala > citta. Remember our discussion about whether the relic of the Buddha is > genuine. The answer is: it is the kusala citta that pays respect that > matters. I think without the Abhidhamma we cannot understand this very well. > Citta is the source of akusala and kusala. As to asking forgiveness, we can > reflect on our wrongs. The highest respect to the Triple Gem is the study of > the Dhamma and the practice. We can ask ourselves in how far do we have > shortcomings in this, did we help others sufficiently to understand the > Dhamma. Have we been neglectful in the development of kusala and > satipatthana? In how far do we have shortcomings in dana and sila? Did we > follow our Teacher's (the Buddha's) advice as to conduct through body and > speech. > We recite in Thai our asking of forgiveness. We also recite each day after > the Dhamma discussion the extension of merit to departed ones who can > rejoice in it. > Let me know whether these thoughts are strange to you. I learnt about all > this from A. Sujin. I had to ask her myself before I understood. > Nina. 33765 From: Philip Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Dhamma vs. dhammas (was Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3 Hello all. Nina's footnote in the "Perseverance in Dhamma" thread: "1.Dhamma with a capital D has several meanings. It can mean: supramundane (lokuttara) Dhammas, that is, nibbåna and the eight lokuttara cittas that experience nibbåna. It also means the teachings of the Buddha. As to the term ³dhamma², without a capital, this refers to paramattha dhamma, ultimate reality, which is different from a concept." Ph: As I transcribe the talk with Rob K, I wonder about this, in phrases like "Dhamma is the most important thing." or "Everything is Dhamma." I decided to use the capital D and not worry about it even though knowing Rob and his insistence on what is happening NOW, he was probably referring to paramattha dhammas in the moment, not about the Buddha's teaching of them, per se. Technically speaking, if Rob were referring to paramattha dhammas, wouldn't it have to be the countable noun, in the plural, and if Dhamma is used as an uncountable noun, like water, or air, or wealth, it would be referring to the teaching? In Mahayana teaching (eg Thich Nhat Hahn) I have come across the idea that the whole world is the Buddha nature, or Buddha mind or something like that, so "Dhamma is everything" would point at the whole world being the Buddha in some way. But there is not that idea in Theravada, is there? So Dhamma is everywhere" would mean the Buddha's teaching, and "dhammas are everywhere" would be used to refer to realities in the moment? Of course, when we investigate dhammas we are also investigating Dhamma, and when we are wrapped up in studying Dhamma we have the oportunity to study dhammas. This is an obvious point, I guess, but an interesting one for this beginner. Metta, Phil 33766 From: Larry Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 8:12pm Subject: Re: Tiika vis 81, no 1 Hi Nina, Thanks for the tika. I think I prefer 'category' for 'khandha' rather than 'heap'. To me, 'heap' suggests a kind of formation, which isn't the sense at all. When unpleasant feeling arises with dislike (dosa) is the feeling tasting the dislike or the object of dislike, say, an orange? Also, I don't have a clear idea what kind of formation sankhara cetasikas form. Is formation in this sense reality or concept? Are accumulated volitions considered to be formations? Are volitions themselves formations? Larry 33767 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Upanissa Sutta and Tranquillity, Concentration, and Liberation Hi Howard, Thank you for the suttas. This one has a Co by B.B. in Wheel 277/278, it may be on line. The Title:Transcendental Dependent Arising. When the Bodhisatta Sumedha had met old age, sickness and death, and finally had seen a monk, he decided to look for a way out of suffering. He knew: there is dukkha, but there must be a way out. We need confidence in the Triple Gem and hearing the True dhamma, that is our food. B.B. explains: Nina. op 09-06-2004 14:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > The following is the final, summation portion, of the Upanissa Sutta. 33768 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob M: conformational Hi Rob M, op 06-06-2004 08:46 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: >>> After the eye-door process, there will be a few bhavanga mental >>> states followed by a mind-door process taking the same rupa > (visible >>> object) as object. This is called a "conformational" process >>> (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi) that effectively "copies the rupa > into >>> a mental object". > > I agree that the object of the conformational mind door process is > still the visible object. Where I am having difficulty is describing > the function of this conformational mind door process. I > inserted 'effectively' as a "squirm word" and put "copies the rupa > into a mental object" in quotes in an effort to convey that my > statement should not be taken too literally. Please help me find a > better way of expressing the function of the conformational mind door > process. N: tadanuvattika manodvaravithi this means: the mind-door process that follows upon that. Anuvattika is following. Is this all right: the mind-door process that follows upon the sense-door process? I find conformational a difficult wording. A. Sujin explained that it is all so extremely fast. The person who realizes nama and rupa at a stage of insight does not have the time to count processes. For all practical purposes, the characteristic of visible object clearly and directly appears to pañña in the mind-door process. It has only just fallen away, but its characteristic appears. Even now, without insight: sound may appear, but in fat it has already arisen and fallen away so fast. Sound impinges again, but who knows which one it is that appears? It does not matter. Nina. 33769 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Auto-romance Dear christine_forsyth > understanding Anatta at all times is critical. Indeed. Yet not so easy after endless lives being hopelessly & desparately In LOOOOOOVE with a neat & nice idea of 'My Self'! This 'auto-romance' is the greatest and most tragic & comic lovestory of all times! Provoked one often relapses into pride. Longterm untrue & unclever habit... Should be shredded & shaken of... Like snakeskin... samahita : - ] 33770 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 11:01pm Subject: The Two States... Friends: Delight is Addictive while Disgust sets Free: The Buddha said: Bhikkhus, there are these two states. Which Two ? Looking with Delight on things & phenomena that attach... and Looking with Disgust on things & phenomena that attach... One who lives regarding things that attach with Delight; cannot eliminate greed... cannot eliminate hate... cannot eliminate confusion... Not being able to eliminate greed, hate & confusion one cannot ever be released from birth, ageing, death, sorrow, grief, pain, sadness nor despair. I say that one cannot be freed from neither ill nor suffering ... However, Bhikkhus & friends: One who lives regarding things that attach with Disgust; can indeed eliminate greed... can indeed eliminate hate... can indeed eliminate confusion... Being fully able to eliminate greed, hate & confusion one verily is released from birth, ageing, death, sorrow, grief, pain, sadness & despair. I declare that one thereby is freed from all ill & is freed from all suffering ... Bhikkhus, these are the two states ... Numerical Sayings of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikaya I [50-51] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/index.html All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 33771 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 9:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Full Control !/Question Hi Jack: >control and non-self co-exist. Indeed! Mind controls by understanding. Mind is not self, me, I nor mine. Mind is not constant nor same. Mind is momentary! Still this mind have ability to control in each moment. Both now & later: a non-self understanding controls a non-self mind which controls a non-self action all which are momentary yet real. samahita 33772 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 11:53pm Subject: B.Bodhi's comments on MN editions Dear Friends, I’ve received some feedback and comments from B.Bodhi on various topics which I’d like to share in separate posts over the next few days. The first relates to the question of the new edition of the translation of MN by ~Nanamoli and himself which has been mentioned before on list. Any feedback on list is welcome and if appropriate or requested, I’ll include a link to it when I next write for his consideration*. ***** Sarah: >I was just reminded of this because another friend also recently asked me about the new edition of this text and some 'VERY important changes concerning the Anapanasati Sutta and others'. Any brief comments I can pass on would be appreciated.< B.Bodhi: I did make changes in the second edition of the Majjhima Nikaya. I don't recall making "major changes" in the Anapanasati Sutta. I did intend to delete the bracketed words "[of breath]" after "experiencing the whole body" in the first tetrad, but through an oversight I left them in; I did, however, delete them from the corresponding passages of the Satipatthana Sutta and the Kayagatasati Sutta, and I have a note to the former explaining the reason for the change. I simply can't go along with the commentary, which seems unconvincing here (despite the words later in the sutta that in and out breathing are a certain body among bodies, which has a different meaning when taken in context). I think it useful to mention what the commentary says in the notes, but as far as possible I prefer to let the suttas speak in their own words and not impose commentarial glosses upon the texts.< end quote Metta, Sarah *p.s. BB: >I generally prefer not to reply to the links, since once one becomes involved in this type of correspondence, it's pretty much time for me to say "good bye" to any other work I'm involved with, and thus I have to make a choice based on priorities regarding time. I hope no one who raises questions or points that need comment feels slighted.< end quote ======== 33773 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 ) Dear Htoo, Thank you for your further (and prompt) feeback and for taking all my comments and requests for clarification so kindly. .... --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: Quite difficult to say. I think we are on the same tract. But > some may be at the beginning, some may be near the end and some in > the middle somewhere. If you stay in mahasatipatthana and I am not , > or, if I stay in mahasatipatthana and you do not, then we are not on > the same path but may still be on the same tract. ... S: I’m not sure what it means when you say ‘stay in mahasatipatthana’. Does this mean ‘develop satipatthana’? I know you understand that cittas and moments of satipatthana are very brief and anatta. .... > S:Before there can be any real understanding of dukkha, I think namas > and rupas have to be understood clearly. Do you agree? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Theorywise yes. > --------------------------------------------------------------.... S: Can we agree that the theory and practice must be of one accord? ... > S: > So I also have a question mark about the last para in (04) about > waking up, having right thoughts which `will dictate all our > actions > though out the day and night until we go into deep sleep', > because > I'm not sure it squares with what you are teaching from an > Abhidhamma > understanding about rapidly changing cittas and moments. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not squaring. If one has determined, he will stay in that > state. .... S: Are you saying that there will be the eightfold path factors arising at each moment or lasting in some way? Also, what do you mean by “he will stay in that state’. By determining, are you referring to adhimokkha’? Even if it’s kusala (not usually the case), would a few moments of kusala adhimokkha or panna or sati have such an effect? .... > Htoo: The more we discuss, the more we find fine points. .... S: I agree and I enjoy our discussions because they’re friendly and we can draw on the Abhidhamma which we both have such confidence in. I learn a lot. Btw, the detail you provide is incredible and very useful as I’ve said. Are you referring to texts as you go along or do you have all these details memorized? Metta, Sarah ===== 33774 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) Dear Htoo, Again, thank you for answering my queeries so well. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: You will know from my posts that I intend for average readers > and not expert readers. For average readers, lobha or greediness and > dosa or hatred are quite evident. Subtle forms of lobha, dosa, moha > have not been talking. Regarding subtler forms, there would need > separate communication and this will be for advanced practitioners. > --------------------------------------------------------------.... S: I understand. .... > Htoo: What is sure is that if someone is not in mahasatipatthana, > most of cittas will not be good ones. .... S: Does this mean when there is no satipatthana, most cittas will ‘not be good ones’? If so, I agree. .... > Htoo: I wrote 2 separate sentences but joined with 'and' > conjunction. 'Heavily attached' means lobha. We fell happy > means 'piti' and its effect. > > I did not mean '' there has to be 'heavily attached' for somanassa > to arise with the citta''. Please re-read my message. > --------------------------------------------------------------.... S: Got it! Thanks. .... > Htoo: A single citta with its associated cetasikas including ditthi > cetasika arise in lobha cittas that are ditthi sampayutta. Wrong view > here is a translational word. What I mean is ditthi. I just include > simple understandable examples. When lobha cittas arise, there may or > may not be 'the wrong view you said'. But every ditthi-sampayutta > lobha citta does have 'ditthi' cetasika. > --------------------------------------------------------------..... S: Agreed. .... > Htoo: Why? Do you have any evidence that 'Not all lobha cittas are > kamma-patha' ? > --------------------------------------------------------------.... S: This is from Nyantiloka’s dictionary, but we can read about the same in far greater detail in texts such as the Atthasalini: >kamma-patha 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'.< ***** S: Any disagreement with this? ..... > Htoo: I am discussing cittas. Not kamma. There are 12 akusala cittas. > unwholesome course of actions and cittupada will not be the same. > -------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Understood. If you are just saying that any of these kinds of akusala citta may be involved in kammapatha, then we talking at cross-purposes and agree. I thought your comments were suggesting that all lobha cittas are kamma-patha always. -------- > S:> In the same message, you wrote: > `With the exception of 2 cittas called pancadvaravajjana citta and > manodvaravajjana citta, all kiriya cittas arise in arahats.' Why > these > exceptions?? > .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Because they can arise in non-arahats including putthujana and > even lower beings like hell beings and animals. ... S: OK. Again my misunderstanding. What you mean is ‘all other kiriya cittas arise *only* in arahants. (I had read it wrongly as suggesting the 2 cittas don’t arise in arahants). ... > Htoo: I said these are for average readers. In the same message, I > include that this citta can also arise in adult. And vicee versa also > happen. 8-year-old arahat will not have ditthi or wrong view and no > akusala cittas and kusala cittas. ... S: Perhaps it would help to add that ditthi *may* arise with lobha in the child, rather than does. Again, I appreciate you’re trying to keep it straight-forward. ..... > Htoo: Thanks for your support. ... S: And to you too. Your posts on the other cittas, prompted, unprompted and so on are very good and clear. It’s an excellent series. Metta, Sarah ====== 33775 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Howard: > > > Has the Buddha ever asserted the existence of rupas in the suttas > > >that > > >are different from sense objects? I doubt it. > > ... > > S: Well yes. Apart from visible object, sound, smell, taste, > > hardness/softness, motion and temperature, all other rupas can only be > > experienced as mind-door objects, including cohesion/water. Maybe I > > misunderstand you. > > > ====================== > I include mind door as a sense door. (That's in the suttas as > much as > the Abhidhamma, and moreover it is clear to me. ;-) .... S: Thank you, yes. I had a feeling I'd misunderstood you here as soon as I'd hit 'sent' in a hurry. So now we can agree -- I hope -- that all rupas can potentially be sense objects, depending on conditions and accumulations.So who is to say what nama or rupa will be the object at the next moment and how will this (nama or rupa) be known unless there is any wisdom or awareness? Just because there has been ignorance or no experience of these dhammas in the past doesn't mean there will always be ignorance or no experience as I see it. Anatta again. Metta, Sarah ===== 33776 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:00am Subject: AZITA PLEASE CONTACT ASAP Dear Azita, Please contact me by phone or email, as soon as is conveniently possible. cheers, Chris 33777 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend James, --- buddhatrue wrote: S:> from: SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and > M104, Saamagaama Sutta > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591 > J: > James: Thank you for this link; I hadn't read this post. However, I > don't really see how these sutta quotes relate to the subject we are > discussing. None of them speak about jealousy. Did I miss > something? I read that post a couple of times and I don't see > jealousy mentioned in the sutta quotes. .... S: I agree that sometimes my logic isn’t evident or I may not spell out clearly what the references are referring to. 1) Saamagaama Sutta, 104 This sutta specifically refers to the same factors listed in the commentaries as being eradicated by the sotapanna, i.e: “Again, a bhikkhu is contemptuous and domineering....envious [i.e jealous] and avaricious [i.e stinginess].....wrong view ....” jealousy and envy are both translations of the Pali ‘issaa’. Some people may like to read more from Nina’s ‘Cetasikas’ on these mental factors: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas21.html Even though this sutta above didn’t mention ‘sotapanna’, it mentions that a bhikkhu with these qualities ‘dwells disrespectful and undeferential’ towards the Triple Gem and ‘he does not fulfil the training.’ A sotapanna, by contrast, has full confidence and respect for the Triple Gem. ..... 2)SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 I agree that the passage I quoted from this sutta didn’t mention jealousy. I thought other qualities listed in the commentary as being eradicated by the sotapanna were being discussed too, like stinginess, specifically mentioned here. In this case, the qualities mentioned are clearly eradicated by the sotapanna, again the one ‘accomplished in faith’ and also virtue. I thought that if the two suttas are put together, the evidence is pretty compelling, even for those who’d prefer to disregard the commentaries and Abhidhamma which spell it out more clearly perhaps. .... >The first sutta, SN55, > speaks about stinginess being eradicated, but not jealousy. > Couldn't one be generous and jealous at the same time? .... S: No, there can’t be wholesome and unwholesome mind-states at the same time, but they can follow each other closely. ... >I think so. > One could be jealous that others have more money to give away! ;-)) > hehehe… .... ;-) One could well be jealous like this, but then there wouldn’t be any generosity or open-handedness at that moment! There could be mudita (appreciation) of the other’s generosity or the fact that they have more to give away, followed by jealousy, followed by generosity itself when one shares a little of what one has (which could be knowledge or kind words or anything;-)). This is a good thread and I'm glad you're asking me to clarify my comments and quotes. Metta, Sarah ===== 33778 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi Rob Ep, Sorry for the delay to your qu below - I’m afraid it got ‘buried’ under other posts. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi, Sarah! > What you're saying make s a lot of sense, and keeps one from having a > mental map of supporting conditions that is black and white. .... S: Let me just say that I think they’re a lot more subtle than we tend to think. For example, we can’t just say that sitting in front of the Buddha is a supporting condition because it would depend whether cittas with wisdom are supported to arise and this will depned on many other conditions too, such as whether any wisdom has arisen in the past, kamma to condition hearing particular sounds and so on. .... >You are > suggesting, as I think Buddha would approve, that we not hold onto any > set view, while still understanding the principles that should be in > play. .... S: It depends whether the ‘set view’ is right or wrong and whether the ‘holding onto’ is kusala or akusala;-). There can be right ‘holding onto’ certain views as being wrong views and there can be wrong ‘holding onto’ right views just to be contrary;-). ..... >If any of the things you mentioned which could be a supporting > condition, including meditation i assume, .... S:.....careful there;-) A lot of traps in one post - maybe that’s why it got buried. Bhavana, yes!! .... >are right for the > individual, ... S.... for a moment, but maybe not the next moment . ... >he or she will find their way to that supporting condition > or action if conditions and propensity allow. .... S: OK, but let’s just say that whether they find their way right or left is conditioned, otherwise there may be a subtle expectation creeping in. .... >Would you say that I > have put that in a way that accords with what you have said? ... S: I’d say it was a skilfull attempt on your part;-). I think your discussions with Ken/H and Sukin (what’s happened to him??) are very good indeed. Please keep challenging them. Your posts are always eloquent (as Ken/H said I think), kindly and well-considered. Ooops, we have to avoid slipping into our mutual pat on the back act -- I’d forgotten about that;-). Great to have you around, Rob. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you very much for your kind comments on the post I wrote to Phil & All on Right Speech too. I’m glad you read it as the last quote I gave from the comy to the Satip Sutta was with you and Ken/H in mind;-). ============= 33779 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma vs. dhammas (was Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3 Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > >Of course, when we investigate > dhammas we are also investigating Dhamma, and when we are wrapped up > in studying Dhamma we have the oportunity to study dhammas. ... S: Excellent - you got it! And this is why the study of Dhamma/dhammas is never removed from daily life. A paraphrase of what K.Sujin: >The purpose of studying the Dhamma/dhammas is to really understand reality as it is, not to have more knowledge or for a self. So this is why there is no question of place or time and there should be no expectations at all. When we’re thinking about awareness, it’s just thinking. Never mind the words like ‘practice’, ‘meditation’ etc, just understand reality. Whenever understanding arises, sati is there. It’s not self. When there is attachment or wanting something as in ‘when will it happen?’, ‘how can it be clearer now’, there are expectations again.< Metta, Sarah ======= 33780 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:09am Subject: "Wisdom, in Buddhism, is defined as the proper and efficacious use of caffeine"!!!! Hi Phil & James, I'm not usually in the habit of posting meditation and coffee articles, but I was clearing out and flicking through some old yoga magazines, and came across the following article which must have been written for you;-). Metta, Sarah ***** A Jolt of Meditation, by Edward Espe Brown [The author finds common ground between his morning cup of joe and his daily meditation routine.] During the years I lived in a meditation center, I rushed through my morning coffee. After all, if I didn't drink it fast enough, I'd be late for meditation. It was important to get to meditation on time; otherwise, one had to endure the social stigma of "being late" (lacking the proper spiritual motivation), as well as the boredom and frustration of having to wait to meditate--until late-comers were admitted. When I moved out of the center, I had to learn how to live in the world. I had been institutionalized for nearly 20 years. I had been "committed." Now I was out and about. What did it mean? There was no formal meditation hall in my home. I could set my meditation cushion in front of my home altar, or I could sit up in bed and cover my knees with the blankets. There were no rules. So I soon stopped getting up at 3:30 a.m. Once I did awaken, I foudn that a hot shower, which had not really fit with the previous routine, was quite invigorating. Of course, getting more sleep also helped. Then I was ready for coffee: hot, freshly brewed, exquisitely delicious coffee. Not coffee in a cold cup from an urn; not coffee made with lukewarm water out of a thermos; not coffee with cold milk, 2 percent milk, or nonfat milk: coffee with heated half-and-hal! Here was my opportunity to fulfill the frustrated longings of countless mornings of my past. I would have not just any old coffee, but Peet's Garuda Blend--a mixture of Indonesian beans, brewed with recently boiled water and served in a pre-heated cup. Unfortunately by the time I finished the coffee, I had been sitting around so long that it was time to get started on the day, but I hadn't done any meditation. With this heavenly beverage in mind, who needed to meditate? The solution was obvious: Bring the ceremoniously prepared coffee, in the pre-heated cup, to the meditation cushion. This never would have been allowed at the center or in any formal meditation hall I have visited, but in my own home it was a no-brainer. Bring the coffee to the cushion--or was it the other way around? I light the candle and offer incense. "Homage to the Perfection of Wisdom, the Lovely, the Holy," I say. "May all beings be happy, healthy, and free from suffering." I sit down on the cushion and place the coffee just past my right knee. I cross my legs and then put the cup right in the middle, in front of my ankles. I sit without moving, so I don't accidentally spill the coffee. I straighten my posture and sip some coffee. I feel my weight settling onto the cushion, lengthen the back of my neck, and sip some coffee. Taste, enjoy, soften, release. I bring my awarenessto my breath moving in, flowing out. If I lose track of my breath, I am reminded to take a sip of coffee--robust, hearty, grounding. Come back to the coffee. Come back to the breath. A distraction? A thought? A judgment? Sip of coffee. Enjoy the coffee. Enjoy the breath. Focus on the present moment. And, remembering the words of a vipassana teacher of mine ("Wisdom, in Buddhism, is defined as the proper and efficacious use of caffeine"), I stabilize my intention: "Now, as I drink this cup of coffee, I vow with all beings to awaken body, mind, and spirit to the true taste of the Dharma. May all beings attain complete awakening this very moment." As I visualize the whole world awakening, my mind expands into the vastness. Edward Espe Brown is a Zen priest, cook, coffee lover, and author of The Tassajara Bread Book (Shambhala, 1995) and Tomato Blessings and Radish Teachings (Riverhead, 1997). This article originally appeared in Yoga Journal, September/October 2001. ======================================================== 33781 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahma viharas, no 2 Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > "Lovableness" is a word I find myself using a lot these days. > Recently I found a sutta that describes people like dogs tied to a > post, going from one factor to the next, in a kind of subjugated > state. (I forget the details - I know it comes up in my talk with Rob > K, so I'll remember then.) .... S: Perhaps it was 'The Leash': http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.html "Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He assumes feeling to be the self... "He assumes perception to be the self... "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self... "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. "He keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress." ***** >Sarah questioned this, and said > something about right understanding being the key. And soon after > that I came to see that right understanding - to the degree that one > is capable - of the three characterstics are essential to > understanding Brahma-viharas. That was a very helpful comment from > Sarah, though I hope I'm not mis-paraphrasing her as I did with Jon! ... S: If you mention 'right understanding' no problem either way;-). Thx, Phil, your paraphrases are always well-intended and appreciated. Metta, Sarah p.s So, hopefully you'll be doing an 'interview' with Rob M next. We'll look forward to hearing about this one too. Now, how will we send Rob Ep over for his interview, I wonder;-). Meanwhile, enjoying the way you present and give your RobK one . ======= 33782 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 )& S-H-Discussions Dear Sarah, I have added the topic '& S-H-Discussions' which means 'Sarah' 'Htoo' 'Discussions'. Even though all basic facts are exactly the same, I don't think we are in agreement. We are up to us, aren't we? Please see the discussions below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Dear Htoo, Thank you for your further (and prompt) feeback and for taking all my comments and requests for clarification so kindly. .... Htoo: It's fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: I'm not sure what it means when you say `stay in mahasatipatthana'. Does this mean `develop satipatthana'? I know you understand that cittas and moments of satipatthana are very brief and anatta. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As you go by I think you need to be careful of the messages whether they are panatta or paramattha. I said 'stay in mahasatipatthana'. Let's disect that phrase. 'mahasatipatthana' is a word and it is pannatta. The meaning it carries also has a wide implication. So 'stay in mahasatipatthana' is totally panatta. After reading this I think you will much more confuse. If I said, ' I stay in mahasatipatthana', the whole sentence is panatta. There is no 'I'. There is no 'mahasatipatthana'. You should have known what 'stay in mahasatipatthana' and 'develop mahasatipatthana'. When we say juice, we refer to the taste but not the water content. When I am airing many many panatta, you do not need to see panatta but you should have to see the essence. Whenever such thoughts arise in you, I can sense that you think I was saying as if I have a control over paramattha dhamma. Example are 'stay in mahasatipatthana' or 'sitting and trying to develop mindfulness and concentration' etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Can we agree that the theory and practice must be of one accord? ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the same statement that appears in different dressing and style. This has already happen in the first round in the '60 messages'. I think this will happen even in the third round. Next question will be 'what is round that Htoo said'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: I am not squaring. If one has determined, he will stay in that state. .... S: Are you saying that there will be the eightfold path factors arising at each moment or lasting in some way? Also, what do you mean by "he will stay in that state'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is quite difficult to explore. NEP only arise at magga cittupada and phala cittupada. They stay a single moment as paramattha dhamma. 'he will stay in that state' is conventional expression. No 'he' and 'no that state' exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: By determining, are you referring to adhimokkha'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Be careful when some messages may be in the form of conventional structure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: The more we discuss, the more we find fine points. .... S: I agree and I enjoy our discussions because they're friendly and we can draw on the Abhidhamma which we both have such confidence in. I learn a lot. Btw, the detail you provide is incredible and very useful as I've said. Are you referring to texts as you go along or do you have all these details memorized? Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not have many references. I go along as I see. I only check when there arise confusing points. I check in the text written by Venerable Anuruddha called 'Abhidhammatthasangaha'. It is a compact text and there are not many details. Details come from some other references and experiences. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33783 From: Philip Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:20am Subject: Rupas for beginners (was :Temperature for beginners and tea Hi Rob, Thanks as always for the feedback, Rob. I'm going to rename this thread "rupas for beginners" and return to it when rupa questions arise. I hope others who are just beginning to investigate rupas will jump on in with any of their questions. Rob: > From the Buddhist perspective, there are multiple rupas which impinge > on the sense doors; there is a visible object which comes in through > the eye door, there is temperature that comes in through the body- > sense door, there is hardness that comes in through the body-sense > door, there is pressure that comes in through the body-sense door, > there is flavour that comes in through the tongue door, there is > odour that comes in through the nose door. In fact, the only sense > door that this conventional reality called "tea" does not impinge > upon is the ear door. Ph: Intellectually, I can understand this, but of course it is still the idea of all this happening rather than the direct experience of it. I'm thinking about what I've done naturally since I was born. It seems in a way that instead of making my experience more direct, knowledge of the Abhidhamma is making my experience of rupa more intellectual and less natural. At this point but I have confidence that it won't stay that way. I know I've read in several posts how people have grown beyond rushing to identify namas and rupas by name like they tended to do when starting out in Abhidhamma. The names disappear but the realities remain. In some sense do we return to the way infants experience things? When does an infant start thinking "milk" instead of just experiencing that stongly desired stuff that flows from that being which he doesn't yet think of as "mother?" At that point there were all the processes that you've mentionned above, without the conventional reality, and without naming the paramttha dhammas involved either. I'm happy to be thinkng about things like "tea" broken down into rupa elements - it's neat! But I know it is a long way from directly understanding it. Of course. No hurry. Speaking of rupas, today I was sitting on the balcony, just listening to the various sounds in the neighbourhood. At one point I heard a baby crying, and found myself trying to hear it as pure sound, if you will. Then I noticed how a sad emotional response arose almost immediately - though I don't know if it was dosa or karuna or what. Then I realized that it was actually a happy kind of gurgling baby cry and the emotion shifted into mudita as I imagined the happy scene. I have read about the complicated flow of cittas that happens at the moment sound is received, but I haven't absorbed at all yet. For now I'll be watching the way sound or other rupas give rise to emotional responses. Like that time with the frying garlic. Rob: > Reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha is good. Using everyday > triggers, such has temperature, seems like as good an approach as > any. As Rob K and many others on DSG are quick to point out, one > doesn't need "formal meditation" as a trigger. Ph: Thanks for the reassurance. I will continue to do so, *if* I do so. :) Rob: > PS: I will likely be coming to Tokyo for a few days at the end of the > month. Is this where you live? Please reply off-list to my email > address. Phil: I hope we can meet. I was thinking of interviewing you based on some of your class notes on cetasikas, if you can spare a couple of hours. And of course sharing our discussion with the group. Metta, Phil P.S thanks also in passing for the article on ambition. Very helpful. 33784 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: just Heart thing Hi Agrios (& RobM), --- agriosinski wrote: > But I didn't ask about rupa and arupa worlds, spheres or their nature. > I ask only about mechanism, need, a reason for mano-dhatu and > manovinnana-dhatu to be based one time in rupa and another not. > In other worlds, the same mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu can > be once in "a MUST" need of rupa for its arising , and the other time > not > at all. > And these are the same Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu. .... S: Can we not say that though they are the same kinds of cittas, those arising in the arupa realms are far more refined or pure and therefore don’t require all the same conditions to arise such as a physical base as Rob has indicated? From comy to Abhidammattha Sangaha, ch3, p114: “In the formless world none of the six bases are found because there is no occurrence of materiality there at all * as a result of the strength of formless beings’ cultivation of dispassion for it.” Also on Rupa in ch6, p.230 “It is associated with the taints because it is accompanied by taints of sense-desire, etc, that occur directed towards it.” “It belongs to the sense sphere because it is where the craving of the senses is active.” B.Bodhi note to same section, p243, CMA “All matter is of the sense sphere: though matter exists in the fine-material plane, it pertains by its nature to the sense sphere because it is the object of sensual craving.” I understand the planes or realms are defined by the kinds of cittas and objects. So the arupabrahma plane is defined by the arupabrahma cittas which take namas and concepts of namas as objects. The Dhamma cannot be heard, but a sotapanna in the arupabrahma plane could develop more understanding of namas only. A plane or realm or sphere is only a conventional description of these cittas and objects as I understand. I’m not sure that U Silananda’s use of ‘sphere’ was wrong. It's not an easy topic. Rob, I read the useful comments in B.Bodhi’s ‘guide’ notes you referred to on p.30 and p.146 in CMA. Let me add the following from the Comy to Abhidammattha Sangaha, ch 1,p.11: “Herein that which desires (kaameti) is desire (kaama) or sensual craving. [Consciousness] where that desire is active (avacarati) in finding its objects belongs to the sphere of sense-desire (kaamaavacara.m). Alternatively, kaama is that which is desired, [that is] elevenfold sense-sphere existence; because it is mostly active here, it belongs to the sphere of sense-objects (kaamaavacara.m) - for what is meant is its most common activity, even though [consciousness] that occurs in form and formless existences can still belong to the sphere of sense-desire. Alternatively, kaama is simply sense-sphere existence and what is active there is sense-sphere activity (kaamaavacaro). By using the term for the support for what is supported, consciousness that occurs in sense-sphere existence is [considered as] belonging to sense-phere activity (kaamaavacara.m).” Metta, Sarah p.s Rob, Thank you for all the comments by U Silananda, on Buddhaghosa and by your teacher on lay life and ambition - very good. ====================== 33785 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) for clarification Dear Saraha and All, This message is to add message of clarification on 'Dhamma Thread'. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Dear Htoo, Again, thank you for answering my queeries so well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: What is sure is that if someone is not in mahasatipatthana, most of cittas will not be good ones. .... S: Does this mean when there is no satipatthana, most cittas will `not be good ones'? If so, I agree. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: From Buddhists point of view, while in mahasatipatthana there always is no akusala. If others with different views do good things as they thought they may or may not be doing good. This is the difference between mahasatipatthana and mindfulness. Non- Buddhists may do good things as they think. But if all dhamma that arise in them are analysed, they will not be at the same goodness as staying in mahasatipatthana. Quite a difference. Someone may offer 100 billion for someone or some society. If there is ditthi or wrong view, this offering will not have the same effect as without ditthi or wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Why? Do you have any evidence that 'Not all lobha cittas are kamma-patha' ? -------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: This is from Nyantiloka's dictionary, but we can read about the same in far greater detail in texts such as the Atthasalini: > kamma-patha 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 3 mental actions are 1.Abhijja 2.Byapada 3.Micchaditthi Evil view is not enough for micchaditthi, I think. Any akusala javana does have cetana and they do create kamma. This is kamma paccaya. If you say some akusala citta do not have kamma and some have kamma, it will be very illogical. If you say as gross things or gross akusala, it may be yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. ***** S: Any disagreement with this? ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I disagree. But I have to check the word 'kammapatha'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am discussing cittas. Not kamma. There are 12 akusala cittas. unwholesome course of actions and cittupada will not be the same. -------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Understood. If you are just saying that any of these kinds of akusala citta may be involved in kammapatha, then we talking at cross- purposes and agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think the above disagreement has now agreed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I thought your comments were suggesting that all lobha cittas are kamma-patha always. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Cetana always arises any lobha cittas as it does in all other citta. But cetana in akusala cittas and kusala cittas always gives rise to kamma. I will check 'patha'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: OK. Again my misunderstanding. What you mean is `all other kiriya cittas arise *only* in arahants. (I had read it wrongly as suggesting the 2 cittas don't arise in arahants). ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Manodvaravajjana citta arises in all form of beings with a few exceptions such as Asannasatta. Pancadvaravajjana citta arises in kama sattas. Both can arise in arahats. But 18 kiriya cittas never arise in non-arahats. They ( 18 kiriya cittas ) arise only in arahats. But still they do not always arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Perhaps it would help to add that ditthi *may* arise with lobha in the child, rather than does. Again, I appreciate you're trying to keep it straight-forward. ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I delibrately left that. Because young arahats are few exceptions. Actually I refered to under 1 year in the pram, when I wrote that message. But the word 'the child' may include different age groups. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Thanks for your support. ... S: And to you too. Your posts on the other cittas, prompted, unprompted and so on are very good and clear. It's an excellent series. Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- May you attain special wisdom soon. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33786 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: just Heart thing Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > S: Can we not say that though they are the same kinds of cittas, those > arising in the arupa realms are far more refined or pure and therefore > don't require all the same conditions to arise such as a physical base as > Rob has indicated? > > From comy to Abhidammattha Sangaha, ch3, p114: > > "In the formless world none of the six bases are found because there is no > occurrence of materiality there at all * as a result of the strength of > formless beings' cultivation of dispassion for it." > > Also on Rupa in ch6, p.230 > > "It is associated with the taints because it is accompanied by taints of > sense-desire, etc, that occur directed towards it." > > "It belongs to the sense sphere because it is where the craving of the > senses is active." > > B.Bodhi note to same section, p243, CMA > > "All matter is of the sense sphere: though matter exists in the > fine-material plane, it pertains by its nature to the sense sphere because > it is the object of sensual craving." > > I understand the planes or realms are defined by the kinds of cittas and > objects. So the arupabrahma plane is defined by the arupabrahma cittas > which take namas and concepts of namas as objects. The Dhamma cannot be > heard, but a sotapanna in the arupabrahma plane could develop more > understanding of namas only. > > A plane or realm or sphere is only a conventional description of these > cittas and objects as I understand. I'm not sure that U Silananda's use of > `sphere' was wrong. It's not an easy topic. > > Rob, I read the useful comments in B.Bodhi's `guide' notes you referred to > on p.30 and p.146 in CMA. Let me add the following from the Comy to > Abhidammattha Sangaha, ch 1,p.11: > > "Herein that which desires (kaameti) is desire (kaama) or sensual craving. > [Consciousness] where that desire is active (avacarati) in finding its > objects belongs to the sphere of sense-desire (kaamaavacara.m). > > Alternatively, kaama is that which is desired, [that is] elevenfold > sense-sphere existence; because it is mostly active here, it belongs to > the sphere of sense-objects (kaamaavacara.m) - for what is meant is its > most common activity, even though [consciousness] that occurs in form and > formless existences can still belong to the sphere of sense-desire. > > Alternatively, kaama is simply sense-sphere existence and what is active > there is sense-sphere activity (kaamaavacaro). By using the term for the > support for what is supported, consciousness that occurs in sense- sphere > existence is [considered as] belonging to sense-phere activity > (kaamaavacara.m)." ===== Certainly the kamavacara cittas are more common in the kama-loka for the reasons outlined in the commentaries listed above. However, let us consider an arupavacara citta that arises in a kama- loka being versus an arupvacara citta arising in an arupa-loka being. Certainly the frequency of arising of these two cittas will be very different. Arupavacara cittas are extremely rare in a kama-loka being and arupavaracara cittas are extremely common in arupa-loka beings. Putting the frequency of occurence aside, is there any intrinsic difference between these two cittas, just because they happened to arise in different worlds? In my opinion, the two cittas have the same nature and the reason that the citta arising in a kama-loka being requires a vatthu and the citta arising in the arupa-loka being does not require a vatthu, is not a function of some difference in the cittas, it is a function of the nature of the loka. As to why this is so, I have no answer (much to the frustration of Agrios). However, I think that Agrios is on the right track when he suggested that this type of intellectual exercise may not help us much (I'm paraphrasing, but I think that I have captured the meaning). Metta, Rob M :-) 33787 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:41am Subject: Re: Rupas for beginners (was :Temperature for beginners and tea Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Rob: > From the Buddhist perspective, there are multiple rupas which > impinge > > on the sense doors; there is a visible object which comes in > through > > the eye door, there is temperature that comes in through the body- > > sense door, there is hardness that comes in through the body- sense > > door, there is pressure that comes in through the body-sense door, > > there is flavour that comes in through the tongue door, there is > > odour that comes in through the nose door. In fact, the only sense > > door that this conventional reality called "tea" does not impinge > > upon is the ear door. > > Ph: Intellectually, I can understand this, but of course it is > still the idea of all this happening rather than the direct > experience of it. I'm thinking about what I've done naturally since I > was born. It seems in a way that instead of making my experience more > direct, knowledge of the Abhidhamma is making my experience of rupa > more intellectual and less natural. At this point but I have > confidence that it won't stay that way. I know I've read in several > posts how people have grown beyond rushing to identify namas and > rupas by name like they tended to do when starting out in Abhidhamma. > The names disappear but the realities remain. > > In some sense do we return to the way infants experience things? > When does an infant start thinking "milk" instead of just > experiencing that stongly desired stuff that flows from that being > which he doesn't yet think of as "mother?" At that point there were > all the processes that you've mentionned above, without the > conventional reality, and without naming the paramttha dhammas > involved either. > > I'm happy to be thinkng about things like "tea" broken down into > rupa elements - it's neat! But I know it is a long way from directly > understanding it. Of course. No hurry. ===== Naming is the key. This is a bit repetitive from my earlier post, but let's consider a visible object. A "visible object" is that which presents itself at the eye door in a small fraction of a second. As an analogy, visible object is like a single frame from a movie film. Each frame is seen as a visible object and the mind merges them together into a continuous stream. After the eye-door process, there will be a few bhavanga mental states followed by a mind-door process taking the same rpa (visible object) as object. The mind may then go and deal with other sense doors before coming back and grabbing another visible object from the eye-door. A mind-door process grasps the object as a whole and "glues together" distinct "frames" to create a perception of unity. There are then mind-door processes that recognize the colour, grasp the shape, recognize the shape, grasp the name and recognize the name. So far, the kamma created by these mental processes is quite weak. We now reach the stage of "mental proliferation". This progression is described in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): Dependent on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. [Rob M: This explains that feeling arises naturally and objectively from contact.] What one feels, that one names. What one names, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. [Rob M: The wording makes it clear that the process of naming, thinking about and mental proliferation are subjective.] With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. [Rob M: Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon itself, covering over the true nature of the object, layer by layer.] We can see from this Sutta that naming plays a pivotal role. A baby does not have the memories required to name and therefore their reaction to the environment is very direct and "to the moment". Naming helps the process of memory (this is why you can't remember things from the time before you could name them). Naming plays a critical role in supporting mental proliferation (papanca). I recently saw a show on Discovery Channel that featured a man who had suffered damage to a portion of his brain during a car accident. After coming out of a coma, he was able to recognize his mother and girlfriend but he was convinced that they were imposters who looked identical but were not, in fact, his true mother or girlfriend. The doctors realized that the portion of his brain that recognized and named was working fine. However the doctors realized that the part of the brain that named was linked to a separate part of the brain that held the associated emotions. In this patient, the link to these two parts of the brain had been damaged by the car accident. When the man saw his mother / girlfriend, he recognized them but without the appropriate set of feelings that went along with the recogniztion, he felt that something was wrong; they could not really be his mother / girlfriend, they must be imposters. What this shows is that inside the brain, emotions are strongly tied to names but they are distinct. In other words, we can say: perception -> naming -> emotion (thinking about) -> mental proliferation Metta, Rob M :-) PS: If you are interested in cetasikas, Nina's book, "Cetasikas" is excellent 33788 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:43am Subject: Patthana Dhamma Page 38 Dear Dhamma Friends, The ongoing pages of 'Patthana Dhamma' continue. The page 38 has appeared on the net. That page contains 'arammana paccaya'. That is object condition. 7 paramattha rupa serves as object for 13 cittas. 7 rupas are causal dhamma or paccaya dhamma and 13 cittas and their associated dhamma are resualtant dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma. The relationship between rupa ( arammana ) and nama ( 10 dvipancavinnana cittas and 3 manodhatu ) is called arammana and this condition is called object condition or arammana paccaya. Paticcasamuppada does not show such a relationship as in case of patthana dhamma. Paticcasamuppada dhamma just reveals this is the cause and this is the effect but it does not show 'how they are related'. Page 38 is now online at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana38.html For the introductory page for the 'Patthana Dhamma' you can go to the site at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html . May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33789 From: Ozay Rinpoche Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:55am Subject: Hello to Sangha Hello I am new here and am interested in knowing how Buddhism is undertood and if enlightenment is an accepted phenomena or if it is deemed impossible or unacceptable as to what it takes to aquire it do people really want enlightenment and sacrifice what that entails or is it about flowery talk and flattery for ego? I am interested in talking to anyone who has the time. Also I offer a free book of someone who lives in the west who found enlightenment in a prison cell here is the url: http://www.ozayrinpoche.org/ LOVE ALWAYS COMPASSION ALWAYS Ozay 33790 From: Philip Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:04am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 7 Doubt Next I brought up some of my doubts. First though, I checked with Rob K to see if he had time to continue talking. It had already been close to an hour and I knew he was only staying one night in Tokyo and had an appointment and book shopping to do. Phil: How are you for time? You OK? Rob: I have no problem. This is more important than anything you can ever do in our life. When you¡¯re talking about Dhamma, and considering Dhamma. There is nothing we should rather do. It¡¯s the right time. Maybe next life we won¡¯t have this chance. Phil: Exactly. There was a time I thought, ¡°hey, I like this human life. Why would I want to cut the chain of rebirth?¡± The thing is you don¡¯t know if you¡¯re going to have human rebirth. Rob: Yeah. I mean, if you¡¯re always going to be a deva (inaudible) for ever. They have much less pain than us. Well, fine, you wouldn¡¯t want to get out of samsara. But even Devas, they die and they¡¯re born again. That¡¯s why (? Inaudible) Because the only way out of samsara isn¡¯t consoling people, it isn¡¯t being kind. The only way out is understanding annata. That¡¯s why Khun Sujin puts the emphasis on annata. That¡¯s what appeals to me too. Phil: Maybe that brought up our next topic. You mentioned the devas. And maybe I¡¯ll ask you about doubt, which is one of the hindrances. And one of the things a sotapanna eliminates. And I¡¯m aware of my own doubt, you know. Like everyone should be at the beginning. Rob: Sure. Ditthi-uju-khamma. (sp?) Straightening view. Getting right view, so if you can eliminate some doubt it¡¯s called ditthi-uju- khamma. Uju is straightening. Khamma is making action, and ditthi. So the action of straightening views. Very high type of bhavana. Phil: Usually in the company of...what¡¯s the word for dhamma friends, by the way. Good dhamma friend. Kal... Rob: Kalyanamitta. By listening to Dhamma. By considering Dhamma. And by having direct experience of dhamma. There¡¯s straightening views. Phil: So this doubt, which I feel about some aspects of...there is doubt about Abhidhamma as well. I mean, this idea that we can ever be able to penetrate all these citta, in the moment, for example that there are 7 citta (Here I was thinking of having read about a chain of 7 cittas that rise and fall at the beginning of a certain process, though I couldn¡¯t remember the details.) Rob: Even some arahats don¡¯t see every citta. When we¡¯re talking about Abhidhamma, we¡¯re talking about the Buddha¡¯s understanding. So when they talk about the processes of cittas. I think not even every arahat sees every process of citta. But they see enough to see the difference between khamma and vipaka, to see the difference between a javana stage and the other stages. Phil: Ja..? Rob: Javana stage is when khamma is being done. And the other stages that precede that. So they see enough, the four jatis. It¡¯s not like you¡¯re going to see every moment just like it¡¯s in the Abhidhamma but there¡¯s enough understanding to see that it¡¯s generally right. Phil: I see. And doubt about the devas. Maybe that¡¯s what brought doubt to mind. I¡¯m sure like many people who are knew to this the idea that the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma in the deva realm. Rob: He taught many suttas to devas too, you know. Not just in the Abhidhamma, in the suttanta. He taught many suttas to (devas). Phil: Did you ever experience any doubt that at the beginning? Rob: Sure. One of the first questions I asked a Buddhist teacher was ¡°I like Buddhism but..¡± ¨C this was maybe 4 months after I first came across Buddhism- ¡°but I don¡¯t really believe in the idea of future lives¡± and everything. I was a leading atheist at our school, you know. I was hated by some teachers at our school because I was so atheist and ridiculed anything to do with religion. So I had this strong belief in science, but I remember as soon as I opened my mouth and said ¡°I don¡¯t really believe in future lives¡± I knew the reason I asked that question was deep down I knew I believed. I had no doubt at all.. And he said ¡°oh, you don¡¯t have to.¡± But I knew even before the words came out of his mouth, almost, ¡°I do believe. The reason I¡¯m asking this question is because I really do believe in it. Phil: So that doubt¡I was going to ask, I picture that doubt as a block. Rob: Yeah, it is a block. Phil: I read the sutta this morning about the river, and the five openings off the river, the hindrances, and I pictured doubt, rather than as an opening as a kind of a block, in the river. Rob: A lot of western Buddhists have the idea that if they¡¯re doubting the teachings, that that is wisdom. I mean, some people think doubt about the Abhidhamma, doubt about the devas, doubt about future lives, they see that as questioning, a kind of socratic type wisdom, and they think that¡¯s to be encouraged. Instead of seeing it as some hindrance, which it is, they see it as vijja ¨C knowledge ¨C not at all. Phil: If it is this block, would it be a block that is dissolved gradually, or would there be like you described, this moment when it¡¯ s just lifted away, or a combination of both. Rob: Yeah, a combination. That¡¯s never been a strong problem for me, after that question. I mean it just seems so obvious to me that it must be that way. Phil: But for me the idea of this great teacher, this great human teacher, up in a realm of devas who are kind of angelic creatures? See, I do have a beginner¡¯s doubt about that. Rob: He¡¯s the teacher of gods and men, you know. He¡¯s the teacher of gods and men. When he got enlightened under the bodhi tree, the earth devas, these are the low level devas, the ones that might listen to this conversation, for example. Well, probably not, but they might, ok? If they knew it was happening. They started shouting to each other, ¡°Ahh. It¡¯s happened. There¡¯s a new Buddha in the world. And suddenly there was a big tumult. And the dveas above them, that are not that close to the earth, they heard these devas shouting and making joy, and they listened. ¡°What?!?¡± And they made a big noise. And then the devas above them. And then it got to the Brahma world, and the whole universe in a very short time found out about the Buddha becoming enlightened. Because, that¡¯s the most important thing, you know. And the whole universe shook at this event. Sounds so strange to our scientific mind, I guess. Phil: But, I¡¯m open. That¡¯s the thing I always say about myself. I¡¯ m opening. I don¡¯t understand it yet, but I¡¯m open to the arising of the understanding. Rob: Did you ever have a citta, a moment, where it¡¯s so pure, so clear, such clarity? Phil: I had one yesterday, actually. When I read the verse in the Dhammapada about ¡°Monk, bail out the boat¡±, you know, when you rid yourself of attachment and aversion you¡¯ll travel so lightly. And I read that there was such a moment of clarity, of gratitude to the Buddha. It was one of those...but again, that¡¯s the logical mind, because I read that, logically I knew it was true. So my logical mind is...and I think that¡¯s one reason I¡¯m attracted to Abdhidhamma. I sometimes worry that it¡¯s actually my logical mind (meaning ego) that has grabbed onto Abhidhamma¡¡as the final logical key for solving... Rob: This is the problem I see with some of the students I meet in Thailand. That they approach Abhidhamma in this logical sort of way. But that¡¯s a very shaky grasp of Abhidhamma. I mean, it has to go deeper than that. That¡¯s why it¡¯s got to get down to what is absolutely real, here and now. But about the pure moments. If you accept khamma and vipaka, then a pure moment like that has to give a result somewhere. And some moments just feel more pure than a normal human, they seem above human. So they would give a result, it seems, in another plane, above the human plane. That¡¯s another way to understand why there must be deva worlds. Because some things are just so nice that they must go further, you know. They¡¯re just too good for this human world. 33791 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: Hello to Sangha Dear Ozay, The article written seems good and there are only a few error such as 'visa versa' which should have been 'vice versa'. Buddhism is anattavada and Buddhists are anattavadi. The e-book in your like sound like describing atta but taking the form of anatta and talking in some anatta way. The writer uses simple English and avoids Pali words. And it seems that the writer equates Sai Babar, Osho, Jesus, etc etc with The Buddha Gotama even though the messages in it are just representation of some points of Buddhism written in some different way. The Buddha is incomparable in any sense. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Ozay Rinpoche" wrote: Hello I am new here and am interested in knowing how Buddhism is undertood and if enlightenment is an accepted phenomena or if it is deemed impossible or unacceptable as to what it takes to aquire it do people really want enlightenment and sacrifice what that entails or is it about flowery talk and flattery for ego? I am interested in talking to anyone who has the time.Also I offer a free book of someone who lives in the west who found enlightenment in a prison cell here is the url: http://www.ozayrinpoche.org/ LOVE ALWAYS COMPASSION ALWAYS Ozay ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have a sense of familiarity with the above writing. Anyway if you want some points to discuss, just put forward piece by piece and there are many members who will deal with such questions of yours. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33792 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:43am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 4 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 4 In this life we still have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma, to learn about realities. This sutta reminds us to study the Dhamma with the greatest care and respect and to verify what we learn in our life. Only a Buddha can teach about what is true in the ultimate sense: citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. We see people, trees, houses and many different things. Do we know what dhamma, reality, is? Seeing is dhamma, visible object is dhamma, thinking is dhamma. We have to practise the Dhamma in order to reach the goal. We have to apply what we learn by being mindful and by developing understanding of nåma and rúpa. It seems that we see a person who is lasting, who stays alive, at least for some time, whereas in reality it is only visible object that is present for a moment and then no more. When we close our eyes, the world and all the people in it do not appear. Our thinking of the world is conditioned by the seeing of visible object. We should remember the momentary death of each dhamma that appears, but we are blinded by ignorance. What we call death at the end of our lifespan is the falling away of the last citta in that life and the breaking up of the body. The length of our life is conditioned by kamma, and nobody can cause his life to last forever. This can help us to accept the death of persons who are near and dear to us. Through the development of vipassanå one comes to understand that in the ultimate sense there is death at each moment: at each moment nåma and rúpa are arising and then falling away completely. Each citta lasts only for one moment, one moment of experiencing an object through one of the six doors. It takes very long, even many lives, to realize this. Dhamma is not a medicine one can quickly apply so that it helps immediately. But we can at least begin now. That is the application of the Dhamma: right understanding of what appears. Many moments in a day we are forgetful of nåma and rúpa, we are absorbed in thinking of concepts, such as people and events. But when we have listened to the Dhamma there may be conditions for a moment of awareness and understanding of one reality at a time that appears. Sati is a sobhana (beautiful) cetasika that arises only with sobhana citta. Sati is non-forgetful, heedful, of what is wholesome. There are different levels of sati: sati of dåna is non-forgetful of generosity, sati of síla is non-forgetful of abstaining from evil, sati of samatha is mindful of the meditation subject. Sati of the level of insight is mindful of a paramattha dhamma so that understanding of it can be developed. Its object is the citta, cetasika or rúpa that appears at the present moment. The aim of the development of insight is knowing dhammas as they truly are, as impermanent, dukkha and anattå. For the development of insight, vipassanå, we should first of all know that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, those are cittas that are thinking, different from hearing. When there are the right conditions for the arising of sati it can be aware of any reality that appears, also of akusala. Sati does not arise in the same process of cittas as the akusala cittas, but after the akusala cittas have just fallen away, the characteristic of akusala dhamma can be object of sati and at that moment understanding of it can develop. ***** Nina 33793 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: just Heart thing Hi Agrio, op 09-06-2004 20:45 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: >> U Silananda, Nina and I have said that the fact that mind depends on >> matter is a function of the plane / world; in kama-loka and rupa- >> loka, all cittas need a physical base and in arupa-loka, no cittas >> need a physical base. > But none of you said why it is so. > I still need to study Nina's answer. Seems mano-dhatu and > manovinnana-dhatu do well without rupa and can do with as well. > For me it means that it does not need any rupa. N: Only in the arupa-brahma plane where there is no need for rupa citta can arise without physical base. > A: And I see no reason to think it is so. > > It feels like I am developing some mental model here, > swimming in the ocean of speculations. > I don't really see reason to start thinking about some other spheres N: Agreed, no need. Let us consider citta now in our plane now. Nama and rupa are always together. The cittas we call ours (but they are not ours) do not arise outside, on the tree. The cittas other than the sense-cognitions do not arise on our arm, they need another physical base. A: and go into them chasing that illusory rupas in my imagination. N: It may help to first consider more what is easier to understand: the sense bases. Do we really understand the meaning of sensebase or not yet? Is there eyebase at this moment? If there would not be you could not see. Do you understand the connection between nama and rupa? The ways they condition one another? We have to deeply reflect and then, later on, it may dawn upon us what the heartbase is. We have to discuss more the meaning of the sense-bases. Later on you will see that a physical base of the cittas other than the sense-cognitions is not speculation, but it needs patience to study and reflect more. You will also come to appreciate Buddhaghosa. Nina. 33794 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:43am Subject: Brahma viharas 5 Brahma viharas 5 Quote from Perfections: When we help someone else with unselfish kindness, there is also the cetasika non-attachment, alobha. When we develop metta, we renounce at such a moment our own comfort. Thus, at such a moment, we also develop the perfection of renunciation, nekkhamma. The Commentary explains that each good deed is actually renunciation. I discussed this aspect with Lodewijk. When taking care of my old father Lodewijk has to do at times dirty work (when the nurse is not there). At such moments a bad smell is unavoidable and I asked him whether he had aversion of the smell. He said that he was too busy to pay attention to that. I thought of the mother who has to change the dirty diapers of her baby. When we help others it can be hard work. But when there is metta we do not pay attention to discomfort. If we do not develop metta and all kinds of kusala we do everything for our own sake, we think of ourselves the whole day. I discussed with Lodewijk the comparison of mother and child. Some mothers have selfish attachment to their children and cannot let them go when they are adults. This reminds us of the near ennemy of metta. We may become attached to people we are helping, but when there is true metta there is also detachment. When we help others with metta, we also need patience and endurance in all kinds of circumstances. It is not always easy to help others, and they may behave in contrarious ways. When a child is naughty, a mother with true metta shall continue to take care of her child. Evenso can we have metta for people who are unkind to us or scold us. It is natural that aversion arises in such circumstances, but when we develop satipatthana pañña shall know the difference between the characteristics of mettå and of aversion. A. Sujin explains in her ³Perfections²: Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Forgiving Dear Christine, op 09-06-2004 23:28 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Yes, depending on conditions, I will be going to India in October - N: Hurrah. Ch: I think the term 'forgive' can cause misunderstanding. I come > from a Christian background N: Yes, I thought of that when answering you. but there are very good passages in the gospel about forgiving, such as forgiving again and again, no matter how often. With our Buddhist background we can even appreciate this more. Ch: But in Buddhism, so I have been taught, no-one, not even a Buddha > can wipe away the result of actions. ...(snipped) > If there is no control over mindstates (cittas and cetasikas) is > forgiveness (causing a kusala mindstate to arise) even possible? > And what does it really mean - 'I won't hold a grudge?' Again, is > this possible to control? N: I see it as helping each other to have kusala cittas instead of aversion. Humbleness, gentleness towards each other is pure, beautiful, kusala. Shouldn't we help each other where we can? We are poor worldlings, all in the same boat. Why not help each other to have more kusala. Life is too short. Lodewijk and I are not holy ones. Suppose he speaks harshly and I retort harshly, we can both say sorry to each other. That clears the sky. It helps also to have harmony in our social life. There can be conditions for helping, helping others to have no grudge, to have kusala citta instead, but no control. We can never control any cittas, but there are favorable conditions that can be cultivated. Fortunately we can find out about this in our life. Since we are worldlings there are also many akusala cittas, but understanding is the most beneficial condition to develop kusala inspite of the akusala that arises. Understanding different moments is very essential. Ch: The terms 'forebearance', 'endurance' and 'patience' (which together > imo seem to equal 'courage') resonate more with me. N: Yes, very necessary for each kind of kusala. Courage and determination to persevere in kusala. You undertake many Dhamma journeys, and now also India. You have determination for kusala and I appreciate it. This helps me now to have kusala citta. Anumodana! Nina. 33796 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma vs. dhammas (was Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3 Hello Philip, Is there dhamma now? This means, is there a (one at a time) reality appearing? Singular, they do not appear to the sati all at the same time. Nina. op 10-06-2004 02:07 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Technically speaking, if Rob were referring to paramattha dhammas, > wouldn't it have to be the countable noun, in the plural, and if > Dhamma is used as an uncountable noun, like water, or air, or wealth, > it would be referring to the teaching? 33797 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81 Hi Larry and Howard (see Sutta at end), op 10-06-2004 05:12 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: I think I prefer 'category' for 'khandha' rather > than 'heap'. To me, 'heap' suggests a kind of formation, which isn't > the sense at all. N: Heap, in Pali: rasii. I took this from the Dispeller of D., the co to the Book of Analysis. It also says: quantity, crowd, mass. Many kinds of feeling are taken all together as feeling khandha. L: When unpleasant feeling arises with dislike (dosa) is the feeling > tasting the dislike or the object of dislike, say, an orange? N: Feeling takes the same object as the citta it accompanies. Thus, there can be citta rooted in dosa which dislikes an unpleasant feeling that has just fallen away. The accompanying feeling experiences the taste of that same object. Or, there is dosa about dosa. Then the object is dosa just fallen away and feeling shares that object. This can happen very easily. When dosa has as object the flavour of an orange, the accompanying feeling shares that object. Thus, we always have to consider first: what is the object of citta. Dosa does not dislike itself, thus, the dosa at that moment, but it can have as object another moment of dosa, the characteristic of dosa that has just fallen away. L: Also, I don't have a clear idea what kind of formation sankhara > cetasikas form. N: An important subject. The khandha of formations include 50 cetasikas, and thus also akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas. I shall say more, using the Upanisa Sutta, quoted by Howard. First your next Q. L: Is formation in this sense reality or concept? N: The name khandha of formations (a name concept) stands for realities. Are these cetasikas not real? L:Are accumulated volitions considered to be formations? Are volitions > themselves formations? N: Yes. I read in the Dispeller that volition is principal because of its obviousness in the sense of accumulating, but the formations connected with it, thus the other cetasikas, are also included. Now I continue about the accumulation of sankharakkhandha. Sankhaara: putting together, combining. They combine and form up conditions for other dhammas. Or they are conditioned. Akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas are included in sankharakkhandha. They arise and fall away and are then accumulated from one citta to the next citta. There are accumulated unwholesome tendencies but also wholesome inclinations. They condition the arising again of kusala and akusala by way of natural dependence-condition. Also kamma is accumulated and can bring a result later on in the form of vipaka, that is kamma-condiiton, another type of condiiton. A. Sujin often says: all moments of intellectual understanding of realities and all good qualities, such as the perfections, are accumulated as sankharakkhandha and can condition later on the arising of pañña that directly understands nama and rupa as they are. Taking the Upanisa sutta: N: It all starts with confidence in the Path leading to the end of dukkha. If there is not strong confidence we shall not develop it. Joy (paamojja), rapture (piiti), tranquillity (passaddhi), happiness (sukha), concentration (samadhi), they are all sobhana cetasikas accumulated as sankharakkhandha. It depends on a person's abilities and inclinations whether there is calm to the degree of jhana or of a lesser degree. The Sub co to this sutta explains sukha here as access to absorption. When contemplating realities, there is samadhi and the object is Recollection of the Dhamma. Pañña and samadhi go together. There has to be pañña with all these sobhana cetasikas, because they arise with mental development, bhavana. There is no bhavana without pañña. They all lead to a higher degree of pañña: knowledge and vision of things as they really are, yaata-bhuuta-ñaa.nadassana. Thus to insight that has been developed. Before this can happen there have to be many moments of considering Dhamma, moments of being aware of nama and rupa. Also concentration. When considering the teachings, deeply reflecting on them, is there no calm and concentration together with intellectual understanding? These are cetasikas, non-self, and they can arise naturally without forcing their arising. Such concentration can be the proximate cause of direct understanding of nama and rupa. There is also joy, rapture and tranquillity. Tranquillity arises with each kusala citta. We can feel enthusiasm about the truth of the Dhamma. It is not necessarily so that one factor that supports another factor has to arise before. The term proximate cause, immediate occasion, can also be used for dhammas arising together. They are all sankharakkhandha that are accumulated and they condition each other mutually. They can condition the arising even of lokuttara pañña. This is a degree of pañña that never arose before. Thus, what has been accumulated can condition what never was there before. Whatever kusala, and understanding, even intellectual understanding we accumulate now is never lost. This is an encouraging Sutta. Nina. 33798 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil on Brahma viharas, 3 Hello Philip. op 09-06-2004 01:16 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > N:> When we cling to the importance of self there is conceit, the > citta is >> rigid, not gentle, > Ph: Then there are the moments when people speak kindly in a way > that fuels conceit. ....she praised me! Now, that needn't give me conceit, > it can give me confidence balanced with wisdom. Confidence balanced > with wisdom is a point RobK stressed. But the conceit arises so > naturally. N: I had to laugh. Same, same. Bhante approved of my Pali translation, and as soon as I read this, I had pleasant feeling, attachment, conceit and I laughed loudly about it all. Then I am proud again for noticing this, more conceit. Formerly I would have been happy the whole day without knowing about it. Better to know than not to know. We are like children: when there is praise we laugh, when there is blame we cry. But we are worldlings and better face facts. Thanks to the Buddha we understand more now. Is understanding not best of all, no matter it concerns kusala or akusala? A good friend, undisclosed identity, only wants to come on line when he can speak with only kusala cittas. He realizes how mixed it all is. Lodewijk said: it does not matter, it is natural. And, is it not a kind of conceit to think so? > Ph: I have let go of the wrong understanding that I could fix my > mind on wholesome mental states and keep them that way. I am very > interested in the 4 right exertions, but now I see that when it is > said that the monk maintains wholesome thoughts that have arisen, it > is not talking about an act of control of thought like I thought when > I first read it. N: It is all momentary, but actually panna controls in a way, but because of conditions. I do not fall over the word control. So long as we see that panna cetasika, not self, can control. The four right efforts are very important. They are accomplished through satipatthana, through vipassana pañña. Nina. 33799 From: Philip Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 4 Hello Nina, and all I was just doing my morning sitting, and thought I would try to do metta contemplation like I used to do, by reciting the metta sutta. I realized, again, that I have trouble with it now. How can we wish well being to others in that way? First of all, people are owners of their own khamma - we cannot control that. Second of all, the only kind of safety and well being that really has lasting value is right understanding of the Buddha's teaching. So I found myself wishing that all beings, starting with myself, could see into annata, could see into the 4 noble truths. N:> If there is true mett?Eit > should be exactly the same whether we perform an act of kindness to someone > who is close to us, with whom we are familiar, or to a person we are not familiar with. Ph: I do appreciate in the traditional metta meditation the moving through from people whom it is easy to have metta for to people whom it is more difficult. This checks our metta which is actually lobha. Metta where there is lobha, and metta where there is dosa. True metta consumes them both, perhaps, momentarily at least? And this exercise of the difficult person obliges me to remember my father-in-law, who otherwise remains hidden until circumstances demand otherwise. It is best to remember him everyday and work towards forgiving. N: > In her lecture A. Sujin emphasized that when there is metta, we have no > conceit and we are humble. We should be like a dustrag that people use for > wiping their feet. We can develop metta and humbleness of heart when others > speak to us in an unpleasant way. Ph: Ah, but if we think in these terms, aren't we allowing others to indulge in behaviour that is grossly akusala? Perhaps gentle resistance can help the other see the danger of her or his ways. I don't think we can do everything to help others wake up, but I think we *can* do something. And isn't there a kind ofconceit in this thinking? I find myself feeling proud for being such a humble, unassuming man at work, and for being popular with the students because of this, because I think Japanese people have more respect for humble, unassuming people. Dustrags can be conceited too. "Look at the footprints on me!" N: >She said that she was looking for a dustrag and that she would > like to become like a dustrag. There were many disciples in the Jeta Grove > who were like a dustrag. When we are like a dustrag we do not mind about > what is dirty or clean. We can gradually learn to be unaffected by pleasant > objects and unpleasant objects, by gain and loss, praise and blame. >We can learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of dana, we wish > others to be free from danger. Ph: But isn't it right understanding of annata that makes it so much easier to forgive insults? Why do we need this self-image of the dishrag. I'm not saying this because I am offended at the thought of being a dishrag, per se. If it were the simile of a mighty river that can easily consume insults I would also question it. Why this self- image when even intellectual understanding of three characteristics in themselves do so much for freeing us from anger at insults? That being said, I am fond of such similes, tending more to the water that washes away anger rather than the dishrag that can soak it up and not mind being soiled. I suppose I think right view is (potentially) so purifying that it washes all these concerns away. I speak from experience because I've dealth with a lot of anger about being insulted, and it wasn't until I came across basic intellectual understanding of annata, the khandas, rupa and nama that I found a very reliable way to see through that anger about being insulted. This is the first time I have ever said anything that sounds critical about K Sujin's teaching and after sending this post I will probably start worrying about whether it was akusala. But after that part of the conversation with RobK about how K. Sujin gets right at annata. Here it seems she is using a simile that could cause beginners to increase conceit based on self-image. I am really enjoying your series on Brahma-viharas! Metta, Phil