33800 From: Philip Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:38pm Subject: [dsg] Dhamma vs. dhammas (was Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3 Hi Nina. > Is there dhamma now? This means, is there a (one at a time) reality > appearing? I guess it is the English teacher in me that makes me obsessive about grammar, but in this case dhamma would be a countable noun, so it would have to be "Is there a dhamma now?" So if I were listening to Rob and trying to transcribe, I would get confused and write "Is there Dhamma now?" Or maybe because "dhamma" is not an English word, I could write it in italics and ignore the countable noun rule, the way I would when if I wrote about a Japanese woman wearing (i)kimono(i) instead of a kimono. Since I'm hoping to transcribe more Dhamma talks in the future- a very helpful exercise- this is something I'll have to figure out, though I know it's not a big deal. :) Metta, Phil 33801 From: Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81 Hi Nina, Thanks for the extensive reply. One doubt though: Taste is always accompanied by neutral feeling. When I taste something and don't like it, that not liking is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. How can two different feelings be reacting to the same object? One is bodily feeling and the other is mental feeling. This is even more confusing! How can there be a mental taste? Also, my understanding of "formation" is something with parts. Is this incorrect? Would "product" or "producer" be a closer translation of "sankhara cetasika"? Larry 33802 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:44pm Subject: B.Bodhi's comments on Abhidhamma Pitaka Dear Friends, B. Bodhi gave the following comments following this link and note I sent him: Sarah: >Ken O's comments about a note you give to MN32 which is frequently mentioned: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31789 ***** B.Bodhi: >To the other letters trying to argue that the Abhidhamma as we know it must have been around at the time of the Buddha because some ideas basic to the Abhidhamma are also found in the suttas, I will only say that the suttas did serve as the seminal source of the Abhidhamma, and there may already have been rudimentary Abhidhamma-style analysis already initiated during the Buddha's own lifetime (though even of that I am very doubtful if that statement is taken to imply systematic Abhidhamma). But it is pretty much a well-established fact that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the product of a period of historical evolution extending over at least a hundred and fifty years following the death of the Buddha, and the way the system was worked out differed in the different Abhidharma schools that evolved (Theravada, Sarvastivada, and another unidentified school represented by a work called Sariputrabhidharmashastra, which, according to scholars, appears to be the oldest and most rudimentary Abhidharma text around).< end quote. ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 33803 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 0:09am Subject: A few more comments on anipphannarupas (non-concrete rupas)- B.Bodhi Dear Friends, Following on from the comment B.Bodhi gave on anipphannarupas (non-concrete rupas)put on list some time ago in context of sabhaava and paramattha dhammas, I gave the following reply below. No further comment from him on this in his mail yesterday. ***** B.Bodhi:> I checked my copy of the Comprehensive Manual and > so far as I can see, you are right and my assertion > is wrong. In the next edition, the sentence on p. > 241 (Guide to para. 4), 'Thus they are not included > among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)', > would have to be taken out. Were there any other > statements in the book making the same point about > the anipphannarupas? .... Sarah: >Thank you for your kind consideration. I looked at the other refs to anipphannarupas and found no other problem. However, I might just raise this one for your consideration: From CMA ch V11, Guide to #36 on Ayatanas: "the mental-object base does not completely coincide with mental object (dhammaaramma.na), but includes only those entities not found among the other bases. Thus it excludes the first five objective bases, the five types of sensitive matter, and citta, which is identical with the mind base. It also excludes concepts (pa~n~natti), since the notion of base (aayatana) extends only to ultimate realities, i.e. things existing by way of intrinsic nature (sabhaava), and does not extend to things that owe their existence to conceptual construction. The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental factors, the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and nibbana." I agree with the Guide to #36 and I think it's important because of the (rather serious) error in Nyantiloka's dict -- which we all use so much on the discussion list-- which says the opposite to the point about dhammaayatana exluding pa~n~natti and not being synonymous with dhammaaramma.na. Modern commentators often suggest they are synonymous which leads to serious errors. (Your comments are also clearly confirmed in the comy and also in Abhidhamma texts such as the Vibhangaand Sammohavinodani.) What you may wish to revise is the comment above about 'ultimate realities, *i.e. things existing by way of intrinsic nature (sabhaava)*', as the sixteen kinds of subtle rupa, inc the 10 asabhaava or anipphannarupas are included. [Of course, generally it's true that ultimate realities have sabhaava and these are the ones as we read in the Vism XV111,13 which are 'suitable for comprehension' as opposed to asabhaava or anipphanna rupas.. Also, 'what is subtle is called 'far' because it is difficult to penetrate, whereas what is gross is called 'near', because it is easy to penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73).] Still, as discussed, all subtle rupas inc anipphannarupas are ultimate realities and NOT concepts. Nina discusses these details about rupas more in a recent post too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31976 < ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 33804 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Friend James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > S:> from: SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and > > M104, Saamagaama Sutta > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591 > > > J: > James: Thank you for this link; I hadn't read this post. However, I > > don't really see how these sutta quotes relate to the subject we are > > discussing. None of them speak about jealousy. Did I miss > > something? I read that post a couple of times and I don't see > > jealousy mentioned in the sutta quotes. > .... > S: I agree that sometimes my logic isn't evident or I may not spell out > clearly what the references are referring to. > > 1) Saamagaama Sutta, 104 > This sutta specifically refers to the same factors listed in the > commentaries as being eradicated by the sotapanna, i.e: > > "Again, a bhikkhu is contemptuous and domineering....envious [i.e jealous] > and avaricious [i.e stinginess].....wrong view ...." > > jealousy and envy are both translations of the Pali `issaa'. Some people > may like to read more from Nina's `Cetasikas' on these mental factors: > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas21.html Friend Sarah (and Nina), Thank you for explaining the sutta quotes that you quoted. In order to adequately address this subject, I am going to have to give some background information. I don't know how productive this conversation is going to be because we are both coming from different perspectives. As I have explained previously in this group, I accept the Abhidhamma model for cittas but not for cetasikas, at least not in the manner that cetasikas are presented by Nina. Previously, I did not accept the model for Rupa as presented by Nina, but then did accept the model for Rupa as presented by Y. Karundasa, so I don't know if my issue with cetasikas is because of the Abhidhamma or because of Nina's description of them. And again, this is nothing personal with Nina, it is just that her writing style doesn't contain enough details and detailed analysis for me to completely understand so then I will draw false conclusions. For others, her writing style is just fine. For example, Nina writes, in the link that you provided: There are three akusala dhammas which can arise only with dosa-mula- citta, citta rooted in aversion, namely: envy (issa), stinginess (macchariya) and regret (kukkucca). Aversion tends to arise often, both in sense-door processes and in mind-door processes, because we have accumulated so much aversion. Dosa-mula-citta is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. We may notice that we have aversion and unpleasant feeling, but we should also come to know other defilements which can arise with dosa-mula-citta, namely: envy, stinginess and regret. These akusala cetasikas can, one at a time, accompany dosa-mula-citta. This does not mean that dosa-mula- citta is always accompanied by one of these three akusala cetasikas. Sometimes dosa-mula-citta is accompanied by one of these three and sometimes it is not accompanied by any of them. I shall now deal with these three akusala cetasikas. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas21.html James: This passage doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems to be trying to add some type of structure and categorization to akusala mind states, namely envy, stinginess, and regret, even though these mind states are clearly of a fluid nature. For example, when Nina writes "These akusala cetasikas can, one at a time, accompany dosa-mula-citta." What does this mean? Does this mean that they arise only one at a time? Does this mean that they can sometimes arise one at a time and sometimes not? Does this mean that their arising is dependent on the nature of the citta? Does this mean that their arising is not dependent on the citta? Do they last only as long as each citta or is their duration not dependent on the duration of the citta? What does `accompany' mean in this statement? Does that mean dependence or that they just happen to arise together? In short, this passage raises many more questions in my mind than it answers. Personally, I view wholesome and unwholesome mental states, cetasikas, as like a soup with various ingredients. The various states arise in tandem with each other and they cannot be separated in order to be analyzed. Each citta will only be able to observe one at a time, but that doesn't mean that they arise only one at a time, does it? Furthermore, as the Buddha taught, one should foster thinking that will make this `soup' of a more wholesome quality rather than a unwholesome one. Furthermore, I do not believe that this `soup' arises dependent on cittas, I believe it comes into being dependent on kamma and craving (which are influenced by cittas). Now, I don't know if this model is correct or not, I just invented it myself. But it seems to match what I have observed in my own mind through the practice of meditation, and what I have observed in the minds of others through psychic ability. Sarah, this post is already very long and I haven't even begun to analyze the various sutta quotes you offered. I will try to get to them in the next couple of days with a second post. I am ending the school year and have much to do. Also, when school is finished I will be traveling to a beach resort and I will be there for over two weeks. There isn't an Internet access at this resort so I won't be able to participate in this thread again until much later this summer (if I can even find it when I come back! ;-)). Take care. Metta, James 33805 From: Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on Abhidhamma Pitaka Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/11/04 2:46:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > B.Bodhi: >To the other letters trying to argue that the Abhidhamma as we > know it must have been around at the time of the Buddha because some ideas > basic to the Abhidhamma are also found in the suttas, I will only say that > the suttas did serve as the seminal source of the Abhidhamma, and there > may already have been rudimentary Abhidhamma-style analysis already > initiated during the Buddha's own lifetime (though even of that I am very > doubtful if that statement is taken to imply systematic Abhidhamma). But > it is pretty much a well-established fact that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was > the product of a period of historical evolution extending over at least a > hundred and fifty years following the death of the Buddha, and the way the > system was worked out differed in the different Abhidharma schools that > evolved (Theravada, Sarvastivada, and another unidentified school > represented by a work called Sariputrabhidharmashastra, which, according > to scholars, appears to be the oldest and most rudimentary Abhidharma text > ============================ Thank you for your dedication to truth demonstrated by communicating the preceding which suggests (as I believe to be so) that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was not the direct word of the Buddha. One thing I would note, however, and that I think is very interesting, is that the work entitled "Sariputrabhidharmashastra" seems to be a commentary on "Sariputta's abhidhamma." What makes that interesting, of course, is that legend has it that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was taught first to Sariputta among earthlings. If it were the case that Sariputta, himself, had a major hand in the origins of the Abh. Pit., that would be quite important to know. (Sariputta was no "lightweight"! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33806 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on Abhidhamma Pitaka Hi Sarah, Howard and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 6/11/04 2:46:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > B.Bodhi: >To the other letters trying to argue that the Abhidhamma as we > > know it must have been around at the time of the Buddha because some ideas > > basic to the Abhidhamma are also found in the suttas, I will only say that > > the suttas did serve as the seminal source of the Abhidhamma, and there > > may already have been rudimentary Abhidhamma-style analysis already > > initiated during the Buddha's own lifetime (though even of that I am very > > doubtful if that statement is taken to imply systematic Abhidhamma). But > > it is pretty much a well-established fact that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was > > the product of a period of historical evolution extending over at least a > > hundred and fifty years following the death of the Buddha, and the way the > > system was worked out differed in the different Abhidharma schools that > > evolved (Theravada, Sarvastivada, and another unidentified school > > represented by a work called Sariputrabhidharmashastra, which, according > > to scholars, appears to be the oldest and most rudimentary Abhidharma text > > > ============================ > Thank you for your dedication to truth demonstrated by communicating > the preceding which suggests (as I believe to be so) that the Abhidhamma Pitaka > was not the direct word of the Buddha. One thing I would note, however, and > that I think is very interesting, is that the work entitled > "Sariputrabhidharmashastra" seems to be a commentary on "Sariputta's abhidhamma." What makes that > interesting, of course, is that legend has it that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was > taught first to Sariputta among earthlings. If it were the case that > Sariputta, himself, had a major hand in the origins of the Abh. Pit., that would be > quite important to know. (Sariputta was no "lightweight"! ;-) I just lost a very long post on this topic. In summary, I have been researching the Sariputrabhidharmashastra. Watanabe describes it as covering both the Abhidhamma (7 texts that we use) and the later Saravastivada Abhidharma (another 7 texts). Watanabe tentatively attributes the Sariputrabhidharmashastra to the Dharmaguptaka school, which according to one of my other texts, only arose in the 3rd century after the Buddha's death (after the Abhidhamma and after the Abhidharma). Watanabe also states, "It is doubtful whether any Abhidhamma texts were recited at the time of the Buddha, though we could say that by comparing the available Abhidhamma texts, a substantial development took place within the first two centuries after the Buddha's parinibbana, and in great part before the first Schism (not earlier than a hundred and thirty seven years after the parinibbana)." Elsewhere in his book, "Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and the Abhidhamma", Watanabe agrees with A. K. Warder (Indian Buddhism) that the core of the Abhidhamma, the Matikas, date from the time of the Buddha. Does anybody have a copy of A K Warder's Indian Buddhism? Apparently, there is more information on the Sariputrabhidharmashastra on page 220 of this text. Metta, Rob M :-) 33807 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81 Hi Larry, op 11-06-2004 02:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Taste is always > accompanied by neutral feeling. When I taste something and don't like > it, that not liking is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. N: I think you mean: tasting-consciousness is always > accompanied by neutral feeling. Different moments, they go so fast. It occurred to me while tasting cheese in the shop that I know so little about tasting flavour. I mix up so much cittas of sense-door process and mind-door process. Cittas arising in mind-door processes that evaluate the flavour, these are different moments again. At first the flavour of the cheese seems too faint, and then it is *as if* there is an after-taste and, yes, the flavour is not too faint. Of course there are many different moments of cittas through tongue door and through mind-door. When noticing too faint, there are already cittas which think. L: How can two > different feelings be reacting to the same object? One is bodily feeling > and the other is mental feeling. N: The feeling accompanying tasting-consciousness is not bodily feeling. Bodily feeling accompanies only body-consciousness that experiences tangible object (three rupas). And this feeling is nama, it is only called bodily feeling because it accompanies body-consciousness. All feelings are nama. Tastingsense is a rupa on the tongue. Bodysense is all over the body, it is also on the tongue. When food is on your tongue, body-consciousness experiences tangible object, it can be hardness, softness, temperature, pressure. We do not taste the heat of food. Thus, bodysense and tastingsense are two different bases and we should not confuse them. Neither should we confuse tasting-consciousness experiencing flavour, and body-consciousness experiencing tangible object. Nor the feelings accompanying these different types of citta. But, as I demonstrated with sampling cheese, it is hard to apply all this. Here are the quotes (I like them so much, I am sorry to leave the rupakkhandha behind). L:This is even more confusing! How can > there be a mental taste? N: taste itself is rupa, the tasting is a citta, it is nama. When we are tasting there are both nama and rupa, but they are different dhammas with different characteristics. So long as we take them together, it is *I* who is tasting and the flavour is *mine*. Through awareness of one characteristic at a time all this can be disentangled. L: Also, my understanding of "formation" is something with parts. Is this > incorrect? Would "product" or "producer" be a closer translation of > "sankhara cetasika"? N: The Dispeller of D. states that you can also see a khandha as having the characteristic of a portion. But I think he means one khandha is a portion of the five khandhas. I would not say sankhara cetasika, but, the cetasikas that are included in sankharakkhandha. It is conditioned and it also conditions the accompanying dhammas. Instead of product and producer I prefer conditioned and conditioning. Sankhara: putting together (sam: together, khara, doing), combining or preparing. there is a combination of them. Sarah once said: the ingredients for baking a cake. The cake is a new product (here we have your word product) formed by all these different ingredients. Lokuttara panna is like the cake. Many ingredients are needed. Cetasika, each cetasika, is sankhara dhamma, it is a conditioned dhamma, just like citta and rupa. Sankharakkhandha is also sankhara dhamma, but not all sankhara dhammas are sankharakkhandha. Citta, feeling, perception and rupa are not sankharakkhandha, but they are sankhara dhamma. Nina. 33808 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:26am Subject: Brahma viharas 6. Brahma viharas 6. We read in the ³Atthasåliní ² about compassion, karunå ((Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) : ³Pity (compassion) has the characteristic of evolving the mode of removing pain; the property of not being able to bear [seeing] others suffer; the manifestation of kindness; the proximate cause of seeing the need of those overcome by pain. Its consummation is the quieting of cruelty; its failure is the production of sorrow.² Compassion is not self, it is karuna cetasika, a cetasika which does not arise with all sobhana cittas. It can arise when we want to help someone else so that he is free from suffering. Its far ennemy is cruelty, one cannot be compassionate and cruel at the same time. The Visuddhimagga (IX, 99) explains that ³grief based on the home life² is the near ennemy of compassion. ³Based on the homelife² means, based on the sense objects. The monk¹s life is a life of renunciation, his life is not based on the sense objects which are actually connected with worldly life. If someone does not obtain pleasant sense objects he may have aversion. If we see a person who suffers we may find this an unpleasant sight and because of this, aversion may arise. Whenever there is aversion in such a case it shows that there is no true compassion. Quoting from the ³Perfections²: < The ³Atthasåliní² (Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 196) compares compassion with a sick child. A mother who has a sick child should try to take care of it so that it will be cured, so that it is free from suffering and illness. When we see other people, not only children, we wish that they are free from suffering and that is compassion. We should not limit compassion to particular people, it should be unlimited.> When we see an old man who cannot sit up straight, and who is almost blind, who cannot read, we can help him with metta and compassion. Lodewijk helps my father with compassion in giving him a summary of the news he has read about. When someone is shouting at us or scolding us we should also have compassion. He may have mental problems and we can see him as a child crying out for help. Instead of aversion we can have compassion and patience. Greater than all physical suffering and mental suffering, however, is being in the cycle of birth and death. That is the real dukkha, because so long as we are in the cycle we have to be reborn and to suffer again and again from illness and defilements that cause mental trouble. Acharn Sujin explains in the ³Perfections² that only the Buddha can have the highest degree of compassion. His compassion is called ³Mahå-karuna², great compassion: When people are capable to understand the Dhamma, we can try to help them with metta and compassion to find the Way leading out of dukkha. However, we all need help so that we do not drown in the sea of Samsara. We all depend on the Buddha who taught the Dhamma out of his great compassion. ***** Nina. 33809 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:26am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5 We read in the ³Satipaììhåna Sutta² (M I, 10, as translated with its Commentary by Ven. Soma), that the Buddha said: Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief...[2] The same is said with regard to the contemplation of feeling, of cittas and of dhammas. It is said in the Commentary that the ³world² means the five khandhas, and these are conditioned dhammas that can be objects of right understanding. As to the words covetousness and grief, the Commentary explains that these words stand for the two hindrances of sensuous desire and ill-will. The five hindrances are sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry, and doubt. By samatha all the hindrances are temporarily subdued. By the development of vipassanå the hindrances are completely eradicated. We have to remember that those who could develop jhåna and afterwards developed vipassanå, had to be mindful of all nåmas and rúpas that appeared, including the jhånacittas. We have to listen and to consider the Dhamma again and again, so that we have right understanding of the way to develop insight and of the objects of insight. Wrong view can mislead us very easily. At the moment of right awareness, desire for the object that appears or aversion towards it can be overcome. We may like certain objects to be the objects of awareness or we want to exclude other objects such as defilements, but then we are not on the right Path. When, for example, desire presents itself and there is no prejudice with regard to the object, sati sampajañña (sati and paññå) may arise and it may have desire as object, so that it can be seen as only a nåma that is conditioned. If we do not understand desire, if we do not see it as it is, it cannot be eradicated. At the moment of right awareness of a dhamma that appears there is wise attention to the object and the citta is kusala citta accompanied by paññå. We may dislike having desire but at the moment of awareness aversion towards it has been overcome and understanding of it is developing. When the hindrances are objects of right understanding, they are no longer hindrances. In this way covetousness and grief can be overcome. Footnote: 2. The words, ³having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief² are in Pali: ³vineyya loke abhijjhådomanassa.m². **** Nina 33810 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma vs. dhammas Hi Philip op 11-06-2004 01:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > it would have to be "Is there a dhamma now?" N: Youu certainly have a point. Lodewijk also finds this difficult. I am so used to A. Sujin's language, and in Thai there is no article. I take it as a reminder going straight to the heart. To me it sounds stronger without artivle. Or: Everything is dhamma. She also says that very often, to remind us. I would like Sarah's and Jon's opinion too. We can say: cetasika is sankhara dhamma. Then we speak in general. A. Sujin also says: Is there visible object now? Is there lobha now? Or we can summarize: there is visible object, sound, etc. Thus, speaking of it in general. But your suggestions are always welcome, English is not my language. Nina. 33811 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Brahma viharas 4 Hello Philip, op 11-06-2004 01:02 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: How can we wish > well being to others in that way? First of all, people are owners of > their own khamma - we cannot control that. N: We can still wish them well. Ph: Second of all, the only > kind of safety and well being that really has lasting value is right > understanding of the Buddha's teaching. So I found myself wishing > that all beings, starting with myself, could see into annata, could > see into the 4 noble truths. N: Very good. > Ph: I do appreciate in the traditional metta meditation the moving > through from people whom it is easy to have metta for to people whom > it is more difficult. This checks our metta which is actually lobha. N: Right. As to the traditional metta meditation, we read in the Suttas (and Vis) that Metta can be an object of calm even to the degree of jhana. But not by mere reciting. The meditator has to know very precisely the characteristic of metta so that it can be an object of samatha. I think that he has to find out about this when he actually meets people. But also when he thinks of people, as you say. And for those who do not develop jhana, metta is a way of calm in daily life. Calm means being removed from akusala. It is very difficult to know the difference between kusala and very subtle lobha. Ph: And this exercise of the difficult person obliges me to remember my > father-in-law, who otherwise remains hidden until circumstances > demand otherwise. It is best to remember him everyday and work > towards forgiving. N: I have read in a sutta that one can also think of those who are not present with metta. Or with compassion. Not only when someone is sick, also when there is a mental problem we can have compassion. > N: >We should be like a dustrag that people > use for >> wiping their feet. We can develop metta and humbleness of heart > when others >> speak to us in an unpleasant way. > Ph: Ah, but if we think in these terms, aren't we allowing others to > indulge in behaviour that is grossly akusala? N: The cittas of others are not the point here. We may consider the example of the arahats? Ph And isn't there a kind of conceit in this thinking? N: Yes, there can be. Some explanation is necessary here. The simile is from the suttas and also in the Vinaya: the monk's behaviour when he goes to a meeting. It shows how far we are away from arahatship, we are not as far yet. I only see it as an example and reminder how far away I am from arahatship. A. Sujin expressed the determination to become an arahat once. There is a Path leading to enlightenment even to the degree of arahatship. We should have confidence in the Path. I do not think: now I have to be like a dustrag. But I realize that conceit arises very often, unknowingly. When thinking of he and me there is already likely to be conceit, even now while I am writing. But when thinking only of the Dhamma there will also be kusala cittas. Thus, we should be like a dustrag, these words can create confusion. This is better: we could consider the example of the arahats. > Ph: But isn't it right understanding of annata that makes it so > much easier to forgive insults? ... Why this self- > image when even intellectual understanding of three characteristics > in themselves do so much for freeing us from anger at insults? .... I've dealth with a lot of anger > about being insulted, and it wasn't until I came across basic > intellectual understanding of annata, the khandas, rupa and nama that > I found a very reliable way to see through that anger about being > insulted. N: Intellectual understanding of anatta helps, but we need many different ways to cope with akusala. See the suttas (for example M.N. no 2 about Removing all the Taints). But all these ways can be developed together with satipatthana, also samatha. If we do not also develop satipatthana, we take samatha for mine. Seeing the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala helps. Think of the simile of a person whose arms and legs are sawn off. He should still have metta. But who is he? The arahat. Also a simile to show how far we are still away. Ph: This is the first time I have ever said anything that sounds > critical about K Sujin's teaching... Here it seems she is using a simile that could cause > beginners to increase conceit based on self-image. N: Do not worry, perhaps it is clearer now? Nina. 33812 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:51pm Subject: Karuna ( was [dsg] Re: Brahma viharas, no 2) Hi Sarah, and all Thanks kindly for the clarification re that sutta, Sarah: > "He keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very > feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very > consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from > feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from > consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from > sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, > I tell you, from suffering & stress." Ph: May I tell you all about an experience yesterday? I was taking the train to work. I take it after the rush hour has subisded, so I can always get a seat, and it is almost always dead quiet - a lovely opportunity to watch the breath in a beginner's way, or contemplate Dhamma teachings, or think about the stories I want to write (much less often now, which is unfortunate for my career ambitions.) I also often fit in a nap in the last ten minutes or so. A very nice time. Occasionally, however, very noisy people camp themselves right near me and ruin this calm spell that I have developped such attachment to. Needless to say there is a great rush of aversion when that happens, though at least I am seeing it now. Yesterday there were two women who immediately launched into a verbal assault on a third woman, who wasn't there, because of something to do with her footwear. (Socks with sandals, if I heard correctly) "How weird" one said. "Weird" said the other. And then they launched into television personalities' bodies, how even through they were ranked by male viewers as having the sexiest bodies, there was something so unpleasant about *that* kind of sexy body. "Kind of disgusting" said one. "Kind of disgusting" echoed the other. And then it was which TV personalites have "big faces" and which have small ones. (Having a small face is considered attractive here.) And this sort of thing went on non-stop during my whole ride. And I looked at my intense dosa, of course, and the above sutta came to mind as a way of seeing the situation with more kusala. Even though I don't talk out loud about it, my mind rushes to the smae judgements about appearances, and truth be known, sometimes I do talk about it with the guys at work. So these women were a mirror for me. I'm on the same leash. That didn't stop the aversion completely but at least it had some kusala company in my mind, alternating. Then I thought about karuna. I have wondered about why karuna doesn't appear more often in Nina's (K Sujin's?) teaching of the Abdhidhamma. For example, it doesn't even appear in the glossary at the back of Abdhidhamma in Daily Life, so perhaps it is not mentionned at all in the book. It is a wholesome cetasika, but apparently not as prominent or common as metta. Perhaps I think of compassion with the conventional understanding of feeling pity for people who are suffering, which suggest looking down on them and feeling in some way above it, which I'm not of course. So karuna in my conventional understanding would be some kind of grand emotion in which the sadness of samasara is all wrapped up. But I guess karuna is something much more momentary. I guess it something that arises to catch us when we are starting to rush off in unkind judgement, that stops that poliferation, checks it, reminds us of our own behaviour in samasara, and helps coondition other cittas that might bring us back to a more equitable state. What is your take on karuna, everyone? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 33813 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:04pm Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 6. Hello all I have fallen behind on Nina's Brahma-Viharas thread, so didn't see this one on compassion before posting mine on the same topic. Sorry about that. No harm done, I guess. Please use this thread to reply to my question about karuna in that other thread. Thank you. Nina: The ³AtthasålinúÎ (Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 196) compares compassion with a sick child. A mother who has a sick child should try to take care of it so that it will be cured, so that it is free from suffering and illness. When we see other people, not only children, we wish that they are free from suffering and that is compassion. We should not limit compassion to particular people, it should be unlimited.> Phil: I did wish that those annoying women would be free from the suffering implied in their uncharitable gossip. And of course that wish helped me feel more kusala. Didn't do anything for them excpept perhaps spare them akusala that would have arisen in response if I had glared at them or pointedly moved away. Perhaps I should carry little translations of Dhamma that I could hand to people before slipping off the train! (Just joking...or am I?) Contact with the Buddha's teaching is the only thing that can truly help people, in my opinion these days. Metta, Phil 33814 From: Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:30am Subject: Re: Karuna ( was [dsg] Re: Brahma viharas, no 2) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/11/04 6:11:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Ph: May I tell you all about an experience yesterday? I was taking > the train to work. I take it after the rush hour has subisded, so I > can always get a seat, and it is almost always dead quiet - a lovely > opportunity to watch the breath in a beginner's way, or contemplate > Dhamma teachings, or think about the stories I want to write (much > less often now, which is unfortunate for my career ambitions.) I also > often fit in a nap in the last ten minutes or so. A very nice time. > Occasionally, however, very noisy people camp themselves right near > me and ruin this calm spell that I have developped such attachment > to. Needless to say there is a great rush of aversion when that > happens, though at least I am seeing it now. > Yesterday there were two women who immediately launched into a > verbal assault on a third woman, who wasn't there, because of > something to do with her footwear. (Socks with sandals, if I heard > correctly) "How weird" one said. "Weird" said the other. And then > they launched into television personalities' bodies, how even through > they were ranked by male viewers as having the sexiest bodies, there > was something so unpleasant about *that* kind of sexy body. "Kind of > disgusting" said one. "Kind of disgusting" echoed the other. And then > it was which TV personalites have "big faces" and which have small > ones. (Having a small face is considered attractive here.) And this > sort of thing went on non-stop during my whole ride. > And I looked at my intense dosa, of course, and the above sutta > came to mind as a way of seeing the situation with more kusala. Even > though I don't talk out loud about it, my mind rushes to the smae > judgements about appearances, and truth be known, sometimes I do talk > about it with the guys at work. So these women were a mirror for me. > I'm on the same leash. That didn't stop the aversion completely but > at least it had some kusala company in my mind, alternating. > Then I thought about karuna. I have wondered about why karuna > doesn't appear more often in Nina's (K Sujin's?) teaching of the > Abdhidhamma. For example, it doesn't even appear in the glossary at > the back of Abdhidhamma in Daily Life, so perhaps it is not > mentionned at all in the book. It is a wholesome cetasika, but > apparently not as prominent or common as metta. Perhaps I think of > compassion with the conventional understanding of feeling pity for > people who are suffering, which suggest looking down on them and > feeling in some way above it, which I'm not of course. So karuna in > my conventional understanding would be some kind of grand emotion in > which the sadness of samasara is all wrapped up. > > But I guess karuna is something much more momentary. I guess it > something that arises to catch us when we are starting to rush off in > unkind judgement, that stops that poliferation, checks it, reminds us > of our own behaviour in samasara, and helps coondition other cittas > that might bring us back to a more equitable state. > > What is your take on karuna, everyone? Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil > ========================== Whether it is "official" or not, I think of pity as the near enemy of compassion. As I see it, compassion (karuna), as the English word suggests, is a feeling *together with*. There is a sense of closeness or camaraderie or even identification involved. But pity, on the other hand, carries with it a sense of separation. Also, and again this is not official but is based only on my own observation: karuna (and mudita likewise) cannot occur, it seems to me, without metta being present as well. With metta Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33815 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Karuna ( was [dsg] Re: Brahma viharas, no 2) Hi Howard!!!!- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Whether it is "official" or not, I think of pity as the near >enemy of > compassion. As I see it, compassion (karuna), as the English word >suggests, is > a feeling *together with*. There is a sense of closeness or >camaraderie or > even identification involved. But pity, on the other hand, carries >with it a > sense of separation. > Also, and again this is not official but is based only on my >own > observation: karuna (and mudita likewise) cannot occur, it seems to >me, without > metta being present as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said, Howard!!!! Well said!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 33816 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:cetasikas Friend James, I like all your questions, but need some time. Appreciating, Nina. op 11-06-2004 10:04 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > For example, Nina writes, in the link that you provided: > There are three akusala dhammas which can arise only with dosa-mula- > citta, citta rooted in aversion, namely: envy (issa), stinginess > (macchariya) and regret (kukkucca). 33817 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction Hi Larry, I found more on part or portion. See below. op 11-06-2004 02:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: : Also, my understanding of "formation" is something with parts. Is this > incorrect? N: The Dispeller of D. states that you can also see a khandha as having the characteristic of a portion. But I think he means one khandha is a portion of the five khandhas. Correction here: Expositor I, p 187: Thus, we can say, seeing is vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, although it is only citta out of all the cittas which are vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. He took them all together as one khandha. Nina 33818 From: Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction Hi Nina, Could we say the cetasikas in the sankhara khandha are efficient conditions or proximate conditions while the other khandhas are secondary conditions but all the khandhas are equally conditioned, meaning impermanent? Larry 33819 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Hello, I'm a new member Hello, Dhamma friends I'm a PhD student studying Buddhism in University of Queensland in Australia I became a Buddhist 10 years ago since I studied in university in Taiwan, where I grew up. Now, I'm interesing in Theravada Buddhism and its meditation methods. with metta Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. 33820 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:44pm Subject: Re: Hello, I'm a new member Hello Tzungkuen, :-) How lovely to see you here! Welcome. I hope Uni is going well, you must be quite settled in at UQ by now. Did you go to Patrick Kearneys' short meditation retreat? I have heard it was very successful and all who went felt their practice had been refreshed and invigorated. Glad you decided to join us. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > > Hello, Dhamma friends > > I'm a PhD student studying Buddhism in University of Queensland in Australia > I became a Buddhist 10 years ago since I studied in university in Taiwan, where I grew up. Now, I'm interesing in Theravada Buddhism and its meditation methods. > > with metta > > Tzungkuen > > May you be free from mental and physical suffering > May you be peaceful and happy. 33821 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Brahma viharas, no 2 dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Phil, ......snip...... > "He keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very > feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very > consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from > feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from > consciousness. > Metta, > > Sarah When we were in Burma, I asked A. Sujin a question about the Khandhas, wanting to know why Vedana and Sanna were each a khanda apart from the Sankhara khanda, you may/may not remember the time, but since then I have observed how much they each 'influence' how I behave, think, react in a day. Just hearing a piece of music, can conjure up memories of a past event, and leave one feeling happy/sad etc. Sometimes, a thought or an image will appear and I know its from somewhere in my past, and I can at that moment remind myself that that is Sanna just doin' its job!!! Hope you're well and happy, Azita. 33822 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello to Sangha Hi Ozay, Welcome to DSG! --- Ozay Rinpoche wrote: > >Hello I am new here and am interested in knowing how Buddhism is > undertood and if enlightenment is an accepted phenomena or if it is > deemed impossible or unacceptable as to what it takes to aquire it > do people really want enlightenment and sacrifice what that entails > or is it about flowery talk and flattery for ego? .... S: It’s a good question. The Buddha taught that there are four stages of enlightenment and I have no doubt about those in the ancient texts who reached all these various stages. The teachings are about the understanding of realities in our lives and the danger of attachment, especially to oneself, so I don’t think that just wanting enlightenment is helpful at all. If the path is followed, awareness and wisdom developed, they will bring their own results without any special wishing. Why do you ask? ..... >I am interested in > talking to anyone who has the time. > Also I offer a free book of someone who lives in the west who found > enlightenment in a prison cell... ..... S: I lived in Wales a long time back and you’ve reminded me that I used to do a little volunteer work at Cardiff prison and run a program at a halfway-house for ex-prisoners. We also set up the first free legal advice centre in the UK at that time.I nearly accepted a research post in California (in criminology/psychology), but headed off overland and quite penniless to India to learn more about Buddhism and other religions instead....That was exactly 30 yrs ago almost to the day! Where do you live in Wales now? I hope you find this list useful. Metta, Sarah ==== 33823 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member Hi Tzungkuen, Thank you very much for joining DSG and giving a brief introduction. --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > > Hello, Dhamma friends > > I'm a PhD student studying Buddhism in University of Queensland in > Australia > I became a Buddhist 10 years ago since I studied in university in > Taiwan, where I grew up. Now, I'm interesing in Theravada Buddhism and > its meditation methods. .... S: As I mentioned (off-list), Qld is well-represented here and you my know Christine already. From time to time other Taiwanese members have posted too, though maybe not for a while. Jon and I live in Hong Kong, so of course we have many Taiwanese friends here. I’ll be posting the letters from B.Bodhi and the one from yourself on ‘sukkhavipassaka’ and the Susima Sutta in the next couple of days which many people will find interesting I’m sure. Thank you for your permission to post your letter which B.Bodhi sent me. I’ll also be posting his article on the same topic in sections (I need to do a little re-formatting) and look forward to further discussion or comments from you if you have time and inclination only. The posts are generally backed up at escribe which has a useful search engine, but it seems to have been down for a few days now: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ You may also like to look at a few posts kept aside by the moderators under ‘dry insight’, jhana and nibbana’, ‘stapanna’, ‘Susima Sutta, ‘Abhidhamma - origins’ in the meantime. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Thank you again for joining us here. Metta, Sarah ====== 33824 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:01am Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 6. & Question for Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Brahma viharas 6. We read in the ³Atthasåliní ² about compassion, karunå ((Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) : ³Pity (compassion) has the characteristic of evolving the mode of removing pain; the property of not being able to bear [seeing] others suffer; the manifestation of kindness; the proximate cause of seeing the need of those overcome by pain. Its consummation is the quieting of cruelty; its failure... If someone does not obtain pleasant sense objects he may have aversion. ... If we see a person who suffers we may find this an unpleasant sight and because of this, aversion may arise. Whenever there is aversion in such a case it shows that there is no true compassion. of his great compassion. ... ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, In our Myanmar daily usage, I think there is a word which is not right. We use the word 'Karunadoso'. If a child that is the own child of a parent or parents did something which should not have done, the parent/s respond with some sort of action which is externally aversion-like. An example is the parent may scold the child or give punishment. How will you explain when the parent does not really have ill-will in scolding or giving punishment? Is it dosa? Or is it karuna? Or is it a mixture? Or anything else? I will be looking forward to hearing from you. With Metta, Htoo Naing P.S: You include lakkhana, rasa, paccuppatthana, and padatthana of karuna cetasika in this message. Actually, I want to collect these 4 differentiating features of all 52 cetasikas, nibbana, and citta. My corresponding is to short cut, piece by piece. But now, I will have to re-collect by surfing through all messages of DSG, which is difficult for me. Htoo 33825 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on Abhidhamma Pitaka Hi Howard, RobM, Chris & All, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Thank you for your dedication to truth demonstrated by > communicating > the preceding... .... S: Thanks for your interest and comment. Sometimes I do hesitate when comments are given which don’t support my views, but I made a decision some time ago to just convey any comments relevant to discussions here in full out of fairness to B.Bodhi. In other words, I’m just forwarding any letters on the Dhamma as I might for anyone else who has a particularly good reason for not posting directly. For ease of reading, I’m just dividing them up and also an article which I need to re-format a little. The article will be of special interest to Christine I’m sure, as it deals with the factors for becoming a sotapanna and suttas she’s raised. I hope to join in this discussion on the Abhidhamma when I have a little more time at the beginning of next week. Hopefully, others like Suan or KenO may join in too. Rob, I’m sorry you lost your long post, but thanks for the summary of it. (You may have to join the ‘composing off-list brigade that have lost too may posts’.) Metta, Sarah ====== 33826 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Friends, There has been a lot of discussion on the list on the Susima sutta (see Susima and dry-insight in U.P. and follow threads): I sent the following to B.Bodhi: Sarah: >Jonothan's comments on a note to SN X11.70, Susima sutta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19389 < B.Bodhi: >On Jonothan's comment: I agree with Ven. Thanissaro. The sutta itself says nothing about the arahant monks lacking jhana, and the Nikayas themselves do not explicitly recognize a type of arahant who lacks jhana. The dry-insight arahant appears as such only in the commentaries. This does not mean that they are wrong, only (again) that one has to be cautious about reading commentarial interpretations back into the suttas. Taken on its own terms, the Susima Sutta is only saying that the monks were not gainers of the arupa-samaapattis and the five abhinnas. ***** Metta, Sarah ======== 33827 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Friends, A short time after receiving the last comments on the Susima Sutta and the sukkha-vipassaka arahant, I received the following letter from B.Bodhi (Wed, 9th June). Tzung-kuen has kindly given me permission to post his letter too. Metta, Sarah ***** B.Bodhi: >Dear Sarah, The following e-mail came to me this morning. You (or Jonothan) might find it of interest. I still don't find anything in the Pali Nikayas that explicitly supports a sukkha-vipassaka arahant, and MN 64 and AN IX 36 seem to make first jhana a minimum requirement for anagami-ship. But I hesitate to use those texts to argue against a sukkha-vipassaka arahant. I don't believe the suttas are a closed mathematical system, and it could be that the Satipatthana method, with its closing words of 'guarantee,' is implicitly pointing to the possibility of the sukkha-vipassaka arahant. With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi< ***** >From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen To the Venerable Bodhi Thera Dear Bhante: I'am a student from Taiwan, now doing a Ph.D. course in the School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics of University of Queensland in Australia. Firstly, we would like to thank you for your persistent efforts in spreading Dhamma. It is due to your English translations of Pali suttas and (sub)commentaries that people like me who have difficulty in reading them directly in Pali could fortunately dive into the sea of wisdom of the Buddha and Theravada tradition. In this letter, I wish to ask for your opinion about the meditative approach of sukkhavipassaka. Hopefully, you would kindly give me some advices.When I read your new translation of Samyuttanikaya, with regarding to Susimasutta, in page 783, you mention that Professor Gombrich has discussed its Chinese counterpart, and suggest, in page 786, that 'the suttas themselves say nothing about a system of bare insight meditation.'However, the interpretation done by Professor Gombrich of Chinese Susimasutta in Samyuktagama (T2, pp. 96b-98a) is, unfortunately, completely wrong. In fact, the Chinese Susimasutta of Samyuktagama unequivocally states that those ahrants with whom Ven. Susima talks do not attain any jhana. Besides, according to Mahavibhasa (T27, p.564b), the Abhidharma text of Sarvastivada and Satyasiddhi (T32, pp.367c~368a) by Harivarman, those arahants mentioned in Susimasutta are without doubt taken as non-jhana arahants. The fact that those arahants mentioned in Chinese Susimasutta of Samyuktagama do not have any jhana is well known in Taiwan because the most Ven. Master Yin-shun from time to time in his works mentioned them. Taking the Pali commentary's comment and the Chinese sources into account, it may be clear that both northern and southern traditions regard those arahants in Susimasutta as arahants with no jhanas. This may indicates that the Pali commentary's interpretation in this case is quite reliable and may derive form an older common heritage.However, in the Vinaya of Mahasamghika (T22, pp.362~363), there is another Chinese equivalent of Pali Susimasutta. In which, those arahants are only said to be not attaining four arupa-jhanas, divine eye and knowledge of past lives. My question is do you really think that Pali suttas themselves say nothing about a system of bare insight meditation? Is there no clue for this meditative approach in Pali Nikaya? How would you explain those arahants who are described in Anguttara-nikaya as not having eight deliverances (vimokkha), if we take them literately without following the Pali commentary's interpretation? It will be my great honor if you have time to kindly give me some advices. With metta, Tzungkuen ***** 33828 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Friends, The following is B.Bodhi’s reply to Tzungkuen on the same day which he copied to me. The paper on the topic he refers to is the one I will be forwarding in installments in the next couple of days as I don't think it's on line. Metta, Sarah ***** Dear Wen Tzungkuen Xian Sheng, Thank you for your e-mail. So far as I can see, there is no explicit recognition of a dry-insight arahant in the Nikayas, and no indication of an approach to arahantship that can dispense with the jhanas. If we stick to the text of the Susima Sutta, in the Pali version, without bringing in the Atthakatha and Tika, we will see that it establishes only that the group of pannavimutta arahants with whom Susima spoke lacked the arupa-samapattis and the mundane abhinnas. It does not say that they were devoid of jhanas. The absence of any mention of jhanas among the things that they did not achieve is significant. Beyond the Susima Sutta, I can find hints, indications that there may be an approach to arahantship that minimizes the dependence on the jhanas, but no text that completely dispenses with them, thus no text that confirms the existence of dry-insight arahants. Take a look at Anguttara Nikaya 4:169 (II 155-56 of the PTS Pali edition). This sutta contrasts two types of arahants, one who attains final Nibbana "with effort" (sasankhaaraparinibbaayii), and one who attains it "without effort" (asankhaaraparinibbaayii). The former is one who (to attain arahantship) practices contemplation of the unattractiveness of the body, the repulsiveness of food, discontent with all the world, impermanence in all formations, and perception of death. The latter enters and dwells in the four jhanas (text gives the standard formula). This is the best candidate I can find for a text endorsing the attainment of arahantship by a dry-insight approach. But if we look a little more carefully, we see that this disciple (before attaining arahantship) has the five powers of a trainee (panca sekhabalaani). Among these is the power of concentration, samaadhibala, which other texts define by way of the four jhana formula. So this meditator does have the jhanas after all, but it seems they are not as prominent in his approach to the path as they are in that of the one who attains arahantship "without effort." The oft-quoted sutta on samatha and vipassana in the Anguttara Nikaya Book of Fours (4:170; II 156-57) speaks of the path arising through the union of samatha and vipassana. I don't think we need understand samatha as always implying jhana, and so far as I have been able to determine, the first two stages of realization (stream-entry and once-returning) can be attained without jhana. The point where jhana becomes, if not essential, extremely important is in making the transition from the second stage to the third, non-returning. I have written a paper on this topic which I will send to you. There may be some trouble with the conversion of the Pali fonts, as I wrote it years ago with a Macintosh and I have converted it to Windows. The most cogent sutta in support of the need for jhana to reach the stage of non-returner is MN 64. This stipulates the first jhana as the minimum requirement for the insight needed to attain either arahantship or anagamiship (see too AN 9:36, a very similar text). And the text says that without following this procedure it is impossible to attain these results. However, I still wonder to what extent we should take these stipulations as absolutely binding. It could be that the determinative factor here is the method of contemplating with insight rather than the attainment of jhana itself. At the end of this paper I ponder whether the Satipatthana system might not be a method of meditation that leads to arahantship without dependence on a jhana. But there is nothing in the Nikayas that could support this conjecture. That is the picture that emerges from the suttas. As to your proposal, that an arahant who lacks the eight vimokkhas might be the dry insight arahant, I don't think that will work. I believe that here we do have to go along with the commentary (already anticipated by the Puggala-pannatti) and recognize that what is meant is an arahant who does not achieve the four arupa-samaapattis. Otherwise it would mean that any arahant who attains any of the eight vimokkhas would be ubhatobhaagavimutta. Or else it would be difficult to see where the arahants who attain the four jhanas, but not the arupas, fit into this picture. It is preferable to see the pannavimutta arahants as attainers of the four jhanas but not the arupa-samapattis (according to the sutta scheme) and to see the dry-insight arahants of the commentarial system as fitting into this category - but also to see them as a commentarial innovation not found in the suttas. (Which does not mean there is no such thing!) I think it more likely that the Sarvastivada Canon came under the influence of later currents of thought which recognized a dry-insight arahant than that such a type was somehow excluded from the Pali Canon. The Mahasanghikas also have very archaic texts, probably as old as the Pali, whereas the Sarvastivadins seem to have been more open to later influences. However, I am not an expert on this, and as you read Chinese, you have access to the works of the world's foremost authority on such issues: Ven. Master Yin Shun. I am afraid that this is the best I can do. With best wishes, Bhikkhu Bodhi P.S. I am sending a copy this letter to some friends who are also interested in this issue. One of them wrote to me today itself regarding it. ***** 33829 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction Hi Larry! > Could we say the cetasikas in the sankhara khandha are efficient > conditions or proximate conditions while the other khandhas are > secondary conditions but all the khandhas are equally conditioned, > meaning impermanent? Respectfully butting in! Think about groups on Mathematics for example, Larry: the product of two elements or sets of a group is itself a member of these group too. Shankara khandas conjoined with hetu or ahetu Paccayoti, proximate or efficient conditions (Cf. The patthanapali Abhidhamma or the excellent Htoo´s analisys of these book), etc, fall to the same conditioned group. As my Sergeant-Instructor usually said,"there´s no scott free about military rules", the same one can says about the impermanent,conditioned constitutive structure of the Khandas. Mettaya, Ícaro 33830 From: Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member Hi, Tzungkuen - In a message dated 6/12/04 2:23:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, s4060239@s... writes: > Hello, Dhamma friends > > I'm a PhD student studying Buddhism in University of Queensland in Australia > I became a Buddhist 10 years ago since I studied in university in Taiwan, > where I grew up. Now, I'm interesing in Theravada Buddhism and its meditation > methods. > > with metta > > Tzungkuen > > ========================== Welcome to the list from another member. I think that most of us here believe that Theravada is the Dhammic tradition closest to the actual teachings of the Buddha, and there are many here with a great knowledge of it. Among the members, many meditate regularly. Some of us engage in formal meditation only - sitting and/or walking meditation - with a variety of meditation subjects (the breath in many cases) and with a mix of samatha and vipassana cultivation techniques. Others, including me, also engage in mindfulness during "ordinary times" as we go about our daily routines. Still others engage in such ongoing mindfulness practice, but forego formal meditation sessions. There is also a core of members here who, following a strong wu-wei sense of anatta and uncontrollability, and seeing any actions that might suggest an imposition of "self" or a false attempt at forcing matters as counterproductive, do not engage in "official" meditation at all, but, do, carefully and with great concentration, study and contemplate the Theravadin tipitaka, especially Abhidhamma, in great detail and at great length, with the idea that these teaching seeds, well watered by careful study and contemplation, will bear the eventual fruit of wisdom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33831 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:56am Subject: Fwd: Re: DSG:Dhamma Thread ( 020 ) Dear Members, Here I have forwarded the discussion message from triplegem. The original threads are being posted here in DSG. But I think it would be beneficial for other groups, I forward them to JourneyToNibbana and triplegem. The following discussion is from triplegem. I think the thread number ( 020 ) is exceptionally clear and the discussion below is also clear to follow or understand. May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear Tep and All, DSG Dhamma Thread( 020 ) describes serialness of cittas. If the picture of 'what is happening while cittas are ongoing' can be clearly seen, some part of citta niyama would be seen. The screen in front of you shows colours of different brightness. The different combinations of coloured spots cause illusion of pictures. Illusion refers to false interpretation of really existing senses. An example of illusion can be seen in case of a man seeing a rope in twailight while there is not enough light to perceive the sense rightly. There is a real object rope. He sees the rope. But he first sees it as a snake. His first knowledge is a snake. But after repeated inspection with the aid of a good light ( say a torch light ), he realises what he saw is a rope not a snake. In front of us is the computer screen. There are billions of couloured spot of different brightness. But we think of these spots combinations as different pictures and letters. This illusion is place-related. If you can draw horizontal lines on the screen, there will be billions of lines and if you draw vertical lines, there will also be billions of lines. These lines again consist of individual spots. Start from the right uppermost spot run down to the left lowermost spot, there will be numbered spots. If they are numbered, these numbers will appear as serials but in place-scale. I describe this to draw the attention to serials of cittas. In contrast, cittas do not take as serials in place-scale. But they take as serials in time-scale. In this time scale, there is a single axis like in case of sound wave which runs in a single axis which again is different from travelling wave in water. Time-scale can be sliced in moments or cittakkhana. We actually illude these cittas that arise in time-scale as the pictures that we are thinking of or panatta or conceptualisation. Actually there is no self in the whole process but just nama and rupa. But this again should not be in theory or just a transferred knowledge but it should be what we really see. To see in this way needs a lot of energy, effort, mindfulness, wisdom etc etc. I try to answer your questions below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Dear Htoo, I like this presentation DSG 020; it deals with some new information you did not before present. I have some questions for discussion. There is something interesting about Tadarammana citta, which is the "retention consciousness". You say, "it just retains the object sensed by javana cittas" and it arises twice. After that "all 17 citta moment have passed away and rupa also completely falls away". Okay, so the javana cittas just passed the object to Tadarammana citta. Tep's Question 1. How does Tadarammana citta retain the "object" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 1. The 7th javana citta just passes away. Next immediate citta arises is the 1st tadarammana citta. 'How does it retain the object?'. It just takes the object. While the previous 7 successive javana cittas run in impulse, tadarammana citta seems to just maintain the object that was taken by 1st through 7th javana citta. But this retention is not an impulse. It is just like maintainence. This citta is translated by some as registration consciousness or registered consciousness. But retention consciousness approaches to its original meaning. I prefer to use 'tadarammana' in stead of retention consciousness. Tada means 'the' , 'then' , 'afterwards' and arammana means 'object'. So the action of this citta actually is just takes the object. But compared to its preceeding javana cittas, it serves as a retainer. That means while 7 javana cittas take a specific object, tadarmmana citta takes the same object and this sounds like retention and so its function is refered to as retention. After 2nd tadarammana citta, bhavanga citta arises but taking a different object from vithi vara. So 'how retain' is just retain which again is just to take the same object of previous cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 2. 'and what is the use of that retention after all citta moments and rupa disappear?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May I rephrase your question here like this; 'and what is the use of that retention while all vithi vara citta moments and rupa are about to disappear?' The use is simple. These 2 cittas that is 2 tadarammana cittas just retain the same object of javana cittas. But they are not javana cittas and they are not functioning as javana cittas. So they do not have kamma producing power in case of non-arahats and they do not have impulsive action in case of both non-arahats and arahats. But they are both vipaka cittas. Next arising bhavanga citta will take the different object from those of javana cittas. In between are 2 citta moments. These 2 moments gap is filled with vipaka cittas and they just retain the object of javana citta but not in impulse. Actually rupa disappear at the same time 2nd tadarammana citta disappears. This kind of citta that is tadarammana citta arises only when 1. arammana is one of 6 kamma senses. 2. that arammana is atimahantarammana or the clearest object 3. satta concerned is satta of kama bhumis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 3. 'It sounds like everything is now finished, gone-- the end of the job done. Isn't the retained object also gone? ' Regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 3. I have answered in answer 2. Rupa gone, citta gone yes. But at 16th moment and 17th moment of the life of rupa, rupa still exists. The 1st tadarammana arises as 1.upada, 2.thiti, 3.bhanga as 3 anukhana or sub-moments. And so does the 2nd tadarammana citta. The bhanga khana or disappearing sub-moment of the 2nd tadarammana citta and the bhanga khana or disappearing sub-moment of the rupa coincide. There are 17 cittakkhana in a rupa. As 1 cittakkhana has 3 sub-moment or anukhana, a rupa also has 51 sub-moments. The very first sub- moment is called upada-khana of a rupa and it is not so strong as to serve as an arammana or object. I hope all the answers are clear enough to reason out. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- End forwarded message --- 33832 From: Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member In a message dated 6/12/04 8:11:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: ========================== Welcome to the list from another member. I think that most of us here believe that Theravada is the Dhammic tradition closest to the actual teachings of the Buddha, and there are many here with a great knowledge of it. Among the members, many meditate regularly. Some of us engage in formal meditation only - sitting and/or walking meditation - with a variety of meditation subjects (the breath in many cases) and with a mix of samatha and vipassana cultivation techniques. Others, including me, also engage in mindfulness during "ordinary times" as we go about our daily routines. Still others engage in such ongoing mindfulness practice, but forego formal meditation sessions. There is also a core of members here who, following a strong wu-wei sense of anatta and uncontrollability, and seeing any actions that might suggest an imposition of "self" or a false attempt at forcing matters as counterproductive, do not engage in "official" meditation at all, but, do, carefully and with great concentration, study and contemplate the Theravadin tipitaka, especially Abhidhamma, in great detail and at great length, with the idea that these teaching seeds, well watered by careful study and contemplation, will bear the eventual fruit of wisdom. ==== Tzungkuen, I would add to Howard's statements above that you might consider joining at least one other Buddhist Internet list. Each list has a slightly different slant. Insight and dhamma-list are two other ones to consider. Jack 33833 From: Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member In a message dated 6/12/04 9:18:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Jackhat1 writes: Tzungkuen, I would add to Howard's statements above that you might consider joining at least one other Buddhist Internet list. Each list has a slightly different slant. Insight and dhamma-list are two other ones to consider. Jack === To clarify what I said above, I didn't mean leave this list. I meant join another list or two besides this one. Jack 33834 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:50am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 6 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 6 We should understand that every reality that appears has arisen because of its own conditions, and that nobody creates it. Also sati should be realized as only a conditioned nåma, as dhamma, not self. We should not be discouraged if sati does not often arise, we should actually not think about the arising of sati. It is the development of understanding that is essential. We listen to the Dhamma now and we begin to understand what is dhamma. This is the result of aeons of accumulating understanding and from now on we have to continue to develop understanding for many more lives. Even one moment of understanding is beneficial since it is accumulated and can become fully developed. The goal of the eightfold Path is detachment and we should not forget that each moment of paññå is accompanied by detachment, alobha, a root arising with each kusala citta. For example, when seeing appears it can be understood as only a conditioned nåma, non-self. At that moment there is a degree, be it very slight, of detachment from the concept of self. We read in the ³Verses of Uplift² (Minor Anthologies, I, 10) that Båhiya asked the Buddha for a Dhamma Discourse. The Buddha said to him: ³Then, Båhiya, thus must you train yourself: In the seen there will be just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the imagined just the imagined [3] , in the cognized just the cognized. Thus you will have no Œthereby¹. That is how you must train yourself. Now, Båhiya, when in the seen there will be to you just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the imagined just the imagined, in the cognized just the cognized, then, Båhiya, as you will have no Œthereby¹, you will have no Œtherein¹. As you, Bahiya, will have no Œtherein¹, it follows that you will have no Œhere¹ or Œbeyond¹ or Œmidway between¹. That is just the end of Ill.² Båhiya listened to the Buddha and truly considered his words. He developed insight so that he could clearly understand the characteristic of seeing as dhamma. He understood that seeing is only seeing, that there is nobody who sees. We read in the Commentary, the ³Paramatthadípaní, the Udånatthakathå, by Dhammapåla [4], about the three kinds of full understanding (pariñña) which include the successive stages of vipassanå. The person who develops vipassanå sees that there are merely dhammas, occurring in dependence on conditions. We read: ³...there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of rise and fall, not-self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled, whence the opportunity for excitement and so on with repect thereto on the part of one who is wise?² As to the words ³you will have no Œhere¹ or Œbeyond¹ or Œmidway between¹ ², this refers to the end of rebirth. We read that Bahiya attained arahatship. After having been attacked by a calf he passed finally away. Footnotes: 3. Imagined stands for mutta, meaning, what is experienced through the other senses. 4.Translated by P. Masefield. **** Nina 33835 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:citta and cetasikas (was: clear out...) Friend James, op 11-06-2004 10:04 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: And again, this is nothing personal with Nina, > it is just that her writing style.. N: I completely understand you. What is helpful for one is not for another. All the same I shall have a try, also thinking of some others who may find it of use. No need for you to answer, since you are very busy. Maybe it is my Asian training and accumulations. Another type of logic also. I know, people cannot always make out much from what I write, it may happen even now. But it is not so tragic. I give daily examples in my book, also from the suttas, for each cetasika. But perhaps this is not enough. J: quotes from Cetasikas:.....envy, stinginess and regret. These akusala cetasikas can, one at a > time, accompany dosa-mula-citta. This does not mean that dosa-mula- > citta is always accompanied by one of these three akusala cetasikas. > Sometimes dosa-mula-citta is accompanied by one of these three and > sometimes it is not accompanied by any of them. .. > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas21.html > > James: This passage doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems to > be trying to add some type of structure and categorization to > akusala mind states, namely envy, stinginess, and regret, even > though these mind states are clearly of a fluid nature. For > example, when Nina writes "These akusala cetasikas can, one at a > time, accompany dosa-mula-citta." What does this mean? Does this > mean that they arise only one at a time? N: Yes. J: Does this mean that they > can sometimes arise one at a time and sometimes not? N: Yes. J: Does this mean > that their arising is dependent on the nature of the citta? Does > this mean that their arising is not dependent on the citta? N: Always dependent on citta. I shall now first give examples below. Explanation in conventional terms: envy (issa): I give some examples already in my book. A child in the class is jealous when another child is praised or receives a reward. He has aversion with an unpleasant feeling. stinginess (macchariya): a child received a cake from his mother and hides it in the cupboard. He does not want brothers and sister to see it, he only wishes to keep it for himself and eat it. He has aversion about the idea of sharing the cake, and also unpleasant feeling about it. He cannot experience any joy about an idea of giving and sharing. I was that child. During W.W II I was so hungry, there was not enough food. My mother had made a cake for me (chocolate with white fat, a nice vein pattern). I wanted it for myself! She encouraged me to share it and made another cake for me alone. When I was seventeen Lodewijk came along, from a family where there was giving and sharing. Good friendship is most important and kusala can be trained. Above all by understanding. Regret (kukkucca): why have I spoken harshly, I should not have. I keep on worrying and thinking about it with aversion and unpleasant feeling. Worry about akusala one has done. Or: why was I not more generous, why did I not help when help was asked? Worry about kusala that was not done. Here are three examples of mental properties which occur in different situations of our life. When I am jealous of someone else's praise I do not think at the same time of not wanting to share my cake I want to keep, and I do not worry at the same time about akusala committed or kusala omitted. There can also be moments of just aversion with unpleasant feeling, for example when I feel tired, or I lost my Pali notebook. Abhidhamma explanation: here we pay attention to the momentary aspect. It is more precise and more in detail. We can analyse a whole situation into different moments of experience. Citta experiences something, let us call it an object. Citta with aversion experiences an object, and it dislikes that object. Each of the examples above can be seen as citta with aversion, rooted in aversion that dislikes: the idea of someone else's prosperity or honour, sharing one's own possession with someone else, and the idea that one has done akusala and left undone kusala. Citta only has one object at a time, it could not have more than one. However, many conditions are operating so that citta is in this or that way. Jealousy and stinginess: conditioned by conceit of he and me (conceit only arises with citta rooted in attachment), ignorance of kamma and vipaka: whatever we receive, praise or blame, is conditioned by kamma, our possessions do not dwindle by generosity, it all depends on kamma. There are so many different cittas occurring and it is difficult to differentiate them. Only direct understanding of realities can. So I understand your simile of the soup. J: Do they > last only as long as each citta or is their duration not dependent > on the duration of the citta? N: Only as long as each citta, but, they arise during the moments of impulsion, javana, thus seven moments one after the other. J: What does `accompany' mean in this > statement? Does that mean dependence or that they just happen to > arise together? N: They arise together with the citta rooted in aversion, and are also dependent on that citta. Cetasikas can never arise alone, by themselves. Citta is the chief or the king, and the cetasikas are the king's attendants or ministers. In this case they give bad advice. Citta and cetasikas that arise together condition each other. J: Personally, I view wholesome and unwholesome mental states, > cetasikas, as like a soup with various ingredients. The various > states arise in tandem with each other and they cannot be separated > in order to be analyzed. N: The Abhidhamma analyses them all in detail so that we first have intellectual understanding of their different characteristics. So we can begin to recognize at least some of them. In this way our life will be less confused, and it helps us not to confuse kusala and akusala which arise at different moments and have different objects. Also, it helps us to see that there are many more types of akusala than we ever thought. We see more the conditions for them and their disadvantages. J: Each citta will only be able to observe > one at a time, but that doesn't mean that they arise only one at a > time, does it? N: Only one citta arises at a time, but several cetasikas accompany the citta at the same time. But, as explained, envy, stinginess and regret arise only one at a time while they accompany citta with aversion. However, sati can be aware of one object at a time, thus, one cetasika or one citta. Or talking about observing: yes, you can think of one at a time. We can verify this. J: Furthermore, as the Buddha taught, one should foster > thinking that will make this `soup' of a more wholesome quality > rather than a unwholesome one. N: We have to have clear knowledge of its ingredients. That is why the analysis by the Abhidhamma is directed towards the practice. It is not a cold and abstract way of looking at things, as I see it. The goal is: weakening of defilements. It takes the poison out of the soup. We want clear broth. J:Furthermore, I do not believe that > this `soup' arises dependent on cittas, I believe it comes into > being dependent on kamma and craving (which are influenced by > cittas). N: We have accumulated kamma and also many defilements, including craving, as latent tendencies. And sure, they condition the citta that arises. Citta and cetasikas arise together. Gradually the soup will be purer. This is my good wish: may things become crystal clear for all of us, Wishing you a very good vacation, friend James, Nina. 33836 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:49pm Subject: Fwd: Re: DSG:Dhamma Thread ( 020 ) Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Tep's Question 1. How does Tadarammana citta retain the "object" > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Answer 1. The 7th javana citta just passes away. Next immediate citta > arises is the 1st tadarammana citta. > > 'How does it retain the object?'. It just takes the object. While the > previous 7 successive javana cittas run in impulse, tadarammana citta > seems to just maintain the object that was taken by 1st through 7th > javana citta. But this retention is not an impulse. It is just like > maintainence. > > This citta is translated by some as registration consciousness or > registered consciousness. But retention consciousness approaches to > its original meaning. I prefer to use 'tadarammana' in stead of > retention consciousness. Tada means 'the' , 'then' , 'afterwards' and > arammana means 'object'. > > So the action of this citta actually is just takes the object. But > compared to its preceeding javana cittas, it serves as a retainer. > That means while 7 javana cittas take a specific object, tadarmmana > citta takes the same object and this sounds like retention and so its > function is refered to as retention. After 2nd tadarammana citta, > bhavanga citta arises but taking a different object from vithi vara. > > So 'how retain' is just retain which again is just to take the same > object of previous cittas. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The way that I see it, various cetasiksas take a more prominent role in different types of cittas to allow the cittas to perform their function. For example, cetana arises in all cittas, but in javana cittas it plays a more prominent role. As another example, manasikara plays a more prominent role in the determining citta. As for the registration cittas, I would see that sanna plays an important role. The function of sanna in a citta is two-fold; recognizing what has been previously noted and making a sign so it can be recognized again. In the case of registration cittas, I see the "marking" function of sanna as playing an important role. I like to think of the registration cittas as "super short term memory" that allows the object "to be passed from one citta processes to another citta process". If a sense-door object is not "very great", then there is no registration citta and the processing of the object stops with the sense-door process. If a mind-door object is "obscure" rather than "clear", then there is no registration citta and the processing of the object stops with that mind-door process. Comments, Metta, Rob M :-) 33837 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:28pm Subject: Tolerant spirit of dsg - was,Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member Hello Howard,(Tzungkuen), and all, I appreciate the way in which you articulated the variety of practice evident in the members of this List (so much so that I have saved it in my folder.) Thanks for expressing the tolerant spirit of the dsg so well. We all rub along companionably here with our different emphasises on areas of practice. As long as we constantly check with the Tipitaka and remain satisfied that our understanding at this time indicates our practice is aligned with it, that is the most we can do. I am reminded of this sutta in the Anguttara, which Bhikkhu Bodhi has translated as Scholars and Meditators: Scholars and Meditators Anguttara Nikaya 6.46 "Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahaacunda was dwelling at Sahaajaati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the monks thus: "Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma and they disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: `Look at those monks! They think, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so they meditate to and meditate fro, meditate up and meditate down! What, then do they mediate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. [n.22] "Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks who are keen on Dhamma, saying: `Look at those monks! They think, "We are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma- experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: `Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana). "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: `Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." Note 22: If people refuse to give respect or recognition to those with talents, temperaments or pursuits different from those of their own, only mutual displeasure will result. An exclusive emphasis on one-sided development will not lead to progress and true happiness, which can be found only in an ever-renewed attempt at harmonizing what should be complementary, and not antagonistic, in the human mind and in society. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tzungkuen - > > In a message dated 6/12/04 2:23:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > s4060239@s... writes: > > > Hello, Dhamma friends > > > > I'm a PhD student studying Buddhism in University of Queensland in Australia > > I became a Buddhist 10 years ago since I studied in university in Taiwan, > > where I grew up. Now, I'm interesing in Theravada Buddhism and its meditation > > methods. > > > > with metta > > > > Tzungkuen > > > > > ========================== > Welcome to the list from another member. I think that most of us here > believe that Theravada is the Dhammic tradition closest to the actual > teachings of the Buddha, and there are many here with a great knowledge of it. > Among the members, many meditate regularly. Some of us engage in > formal meditation only - sitting and/or walking meditation - with a variety of > meditation subjects (the breath in many cases) and with a mix of samatha and > vipassana cultivation techniques. Others, including me, also engage in mindfulness > during "ordinary times" as we go about our daily routines. Still others engage > in such ongoing mindfulness practice, but forego formal meditation sessions. > There is also a core of members here who, following a strong wu-wei > sense of anatta and uncontrollability, and seeing any actions that might suggest > an imposition of "self" or a false attempt at forcing matters as > counterproductive, do not engage in "official" meditation at all, but, do, carefully and > with great concentration, study and contemplate the Theravadin tipitaka, > especially Abhidhamma, in great detail and at great length, with the idea that these > teaching seeds, well watered by careful study and contemplation, will bear > the eventual fruit of wisdom. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33838 From: Philip Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:50pm Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 8 Buddhaghosa/commentaries I have only learned about the commentaries recently. I have seen disagreements at DSG based on points where the suttas and commentary don't concur, though I didn't follow the debates in question closely and can't say whether this contention that they don't concur is true not. In any case, I decided to ask Rob about why the commentaries are important, and where to start with them. Rob: We need to study the commentaries. Because that is by the Arahats. That is the attha - that means it's explaining the meaning, you know. Otherwise (inaudible) you read the suttas, we tend to guess, because the suttas are very pithy. Very pithy. And we guess. But the commentaries give the expanded meaning, to cut out the guess work. Phil: So my question is - maybe this is another aspect of doubt- this is a problem I had with the Epistles of Paul when I read the Bible. Why had they come to have as much weight as the Gospel? So it's a predictable question, but why would the commentary have the same weight as the Buddha's teaching? Rob: Almost the same weight. Not exactly the same weight, but almost. Because without the commentary the teaching can't last long, because people with poor understanding would put their own interpretation on the suttas, you know. Phil: And the commentary that we're using today has over the centuries gained... Rob: The commentary came right from the beginning. Buddhaghosa edited the commentaries, he didn't make his own commentary, per se. He took the ancient commentaries and edited them. And they date from the beginning of the sasana. He took the pavana(?) - the word of the ancients. It's the word of the ancients. Phil: SO that would be the first conference that was held? Rob: Yeah, most of the commentaries were at the first conference. Not all. A sizable proportion were recited even at the first counsel. Phil: I've never read his commentaries except for brief passages from Nina's books, but in his commentaries does he refer to the source of his (commentaries)? Rob: Yeah, all the time. Sometimes there's a discrepancy, like he?Ell say The Majjhima Nikaya reciters say that Mahomagalana(sp?) -this is one example -when he died, you know the story of when he died? Well, he was murdered. He was crushed to death. People wondered how - he was the most powerful monk, with supernormal powers, after the Buddha - and people wondered how could someone with his supermormal powers be murdered? He could have just disappeared, or whatever. What happened was, for an instant his supermormal powers disappeared. Why did they disappear? Because in a previous life he had tried to kill his parents. Now, the Majjhima Nikaya reciters say that he did succeed in killing his parents. But the Dhammapada reciters say that he was killing them, but then he felt remorse, and stopped. He only beat them badly and then he stopped short of killing them and had remorse about it. So Buddhaghosa says this ancient commentary says this, and this one says this, and no conclusion is reached. Phil: He clearly shows both sides? Rob: He shows both sides. And he was working from the ancient commentaries. Occasionally an argument about Dhamma comes up ?Ethis ancient said this, and this ancient said that, and they disagreed. And occasionally he'll say my opinion is da da da but my opinion is the least trustworthy of anything. Very rarely, it's less than half a dozen times, where he'll give an opinion. All the other times he's following the ancients. Phil: (asks about Visuddhimagga) That's the one that's mentioned the most. (In Nina's books, and at DSG) That's the Abhidhamma commentary, I guess. Rob: No, the Abhidhamma commentary is the Akasalini (sp?) and the Dispeller of Delusion. There are three books there. They're very good. I like them. I prefer them in some ways to the Visuddhimagga. Phil: So the Visuddhimagga is what exactly? Rob: It's an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia of the teachings. It's not a commentary per se. It's based on the commentaries. Phil: So that would be the place to start if I were to read the commentaries? Rob: Yeah, it's a sort of encyclopedia. 33840 From: jonoabb Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma vs. dhammas Nina and Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Philip > op 11-06-2004 01:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > it would have to be "Is there a dhamma now?" > N: Youu certainly have a point. Lodewijk also finds this difficult. I am so > used to A. Sujin's language, and in Thai there is no article. I take it as a > reminder going straight to the heart. To me it sounds stronger without > artivle. Or: Everything is dhamma. She also says that very often, to remind > us. > I would like Sarah's and Jon's opinion too. I'm not sure that I can add anything useful here, other than to say that there is a fair degree of personal latitude these days in how language is used. I also find that how I say something may depend on whether I am speaking conventinally or trying to be precise in terms of paramattah dhammas. When 'dhamma' is used in the sense of *an individual reality* (i.e., one of the five aggregates), then it is a 'countable' noun, having a singular and plural form. When 'dhamma' is used in a collective sense as, for example, the teachings or *reality in general* then it is an uncountable noun, and there is no singular/plural form. There are a number of Pali terms that are in a similar category: citta (a moment of consciousness vs. consciousness in general), cetasika (an individual mental factor vs. the phenomenon that is mental factor as opposed to consciousness), rupa (individual momentary instances of the object experienced through a particular doorway vs. the phenomenon that does not experience anything), and so on. Jon > We can say: cetasika is sankhara dhamma. Then we speak in general. > A. Sujin also says: Is there visible object now? Is there lobha now? > Or we can summarize: there is visible object, sound, etc. > Thus, speaking of it in general. > But your suggestions are always welcome, English is not my language. > Nina. 33841 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Problems accessing Tipitaka Index Dear Group, I haven't been able to access the Tipitaka Index at www.metta.lk/tipitaka/ for a week or so. Is anyone else able to access it, or does anyone have any information about what has happened? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33842 From: Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction Hi Icaro, Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. I'm trying to understand why sankhara khandha is called sankhara. One thought that occurred to me is that dependent arising is not a matter of taking pre-existing phenomena and arranging them into a new formation. A consciousness isn't waiting back-stage for its cue. Rather, completely new stuff arises from a particular continuity, like the growth of a plant from seed to blossom. The saying "there is nothing new under the sun" isn't true not only because there is no sun, but because everything is ferociously new all the time. Larry ---------------------- Icaro: Hi Larry! L: Could we say the cetasikas in the sankhara khandha are efficient conditions or proximate conditions while the other khandhas are secondary conditions but all the khandhas are equally conditioned, meaning impermanent? I: Respectfully butting in! Think about groups on Mathematics for example, Larry: the product of two elements or sets of a group is itself a member of these group too. Shankara khandas conjoined with hetu or ahetu Paccayoti, proximate or efficient conditions (Cf. The patthanapali Abhidhamma or the excellent Htoo´s analisys of these book), etc, fall to the same conditioned group. As my Sergeant-Instructor usually said,"there´s no scott free about military rules", the same one can says about the impermanent,conditioned constitutive structure of the Khandas. Mettaya, Ícaro 33843 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction Hi Larry! > Hi Icaro, > > Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. I'm trying to understand > why > sankhara khandha is called sankhara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I will try to clarify such ideas. The word "Sankhara" is one of the most difficult Pali words to translate out. Quoting the PTS Pali-English Dict.: "[fr. san+kr, not Vedic, but as sanskara Epic & Class. Sk. meaning "preparation" and "sacrament," also in philosophical literature "former impression, disposition, " cp. vasana] one of the most difficult terms in Buddhist metaphysics, in which the blending of the subjective--objective view of the world and of happening, peculiar to the East, is so complete, that it is almost impossible for Occidental terminology to get at the root of its meaning in a translation. We can only convey an idea of its import by representing several sides of its application, without attempting to give a "word" as a def. trsln. -- An exhaustive discussion of the term is given by Franke in his Digha translation (pp. 307 sq., esp. 311 sq.); see also the analysis in Cpd. 273--276. -- Lit. "preparation, get up"; appld: coefficient (of consciousness as well as of physical life, cp. vinnana), constituent, constituent potentiality; (pl.) synergies, cause--combination, as in S III.87;" I could risk "Synergy" to fit it. So, since khandas are aggregates with definite structure, a Synergy between them will be also under the group (Mathematically speaking) definition of Khandas. A rose is a rose is a rose...a Khanda is a khanda is a khanda. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One thought that occurred to me is that dependent arising is not a > matter of taking pre-existing phenomena and arranging them into a new > formation. A consciousness isn't waiting back-stage for its cue. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- So I think that Synergy of aggregates could do the job for our understanding. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Rather, > completely new stuff arises from a particular continuity, like the > growth of a plant from seed to blossom. The saying "there is nothing new > under the sun" isn't true not only because there is no sun, but because > everything is ferociously new all the time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- You are taking out examples that don´t clarify so much the question...but poetry is O.K.. Standing alone at the Cayuga Pass under the spell of a canadian autumn landscape could give you a good glimpse about what Synergy means, but it won´t easy your effort to translate such strange Pali terms! I Hope it´s clearer now. "Scott Free" is a slang meaning get free of a very tight knot, the knot of the...Sankhara Khandas! Mettaya, Ícaro 33844 From: Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction Icaro: "I Hope it´s clearer now. "Scott Free" is a slang meaning get free of a very tight knot, the knot of the...Sankhara Khandas!" Hi Icaro, Thanks, it's clearer now, but that's not my question. I can see why all the khandhas are sankhara, but why are sankhara cetasikas _more_ sankhara? Larry 33845 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:07pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep > > A thought occurs to me that you have probably already considered. In > case not, here goes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > wrote: > > Where in the body of Sutta is the fourth factor of "practice in > > accordance with the Dhammma" defined as "satipatthana" and > > satipatthana only? [snip] i would very much > > like to see such a passage to read it for myself. > > I recall an exchange between Victor and Ken H in which they were > quoting sutta extracts to each other. However, each beleived that > the other's sutta extract actually supported his own view. > > It seems to me that the difference is not so much the words the > suttas use, but how they are read. Do you read the words literally > and give them their "natural" meaning (as far as this can be done one > language removed from the original)? Do you need to read the words > against a context (such as the nature of the physical audience)? Do > you permit of meanings on only one level or several all at once? > > These are real issues as evidenced by the suttas (discussed at length > with Victor in another thread) about when teachings need to be drawn > out and when they don't. > > You know all this far better than I do and, indeed, have been > discussing aspects with Ken H eg about "tortured" or unnecessarily > convoluted interpretations. > > If Ken H provides you with an "express" sutta reference that can only > possibly be read in the way he proposes, well and good for him. If > he cannot do so (and he has failed so far), can we determine that > ipso facto he is wrong? > > I must confess to being perplexed about the view (not necessarily > yours) that "everything is in the suttas". I'm sure it is ... but > how to draw the meaning out to my level of understanding is the more > tricky part. > > Sorry for rambling. I enjoy your posts very much and get a lot out > of them. > > With best wishes > Andrew Thank you Andrew. Of course we will not find every point about the Dharma explained in the suttas. We also do not know for sure who is "right" and who is "wrong." However, I would say this: If you want to assert that meditation is not a form of practice according to the Dharma, then you have to provide evidence from the reocrd of the Dharma, or provide a logical argument that this is so. Because Ken, Sukin, Jon have a different view than I do about whether meditation is a legitimate Buddhist practice, we have to have some basis to discuss it that we have in common. Those who are "against" meditation -- and it really can't be put any other way -- do not trust the experience of the meditator to provide any evidence, because he may not be aware of whether his meditation experience is providing real insight, or just akusala fabrications. There is also a question as to whether any practice that is planned to have a certain result can do any good at all, as it is said to assert a "doer" who can control the result. I don't agree with that, but it has to be clarified, since it is an issue. The ways in which the Noble Eightfold Path and the four categories of involvement that lead to enlightenment are viewed is also impotant. So I find it necessary to at least try and debate our different interpretations of Buddha's instructions about this, as evidenced in the suttas. I am not a sutta scholar, so I'm at a disadvantage, but I'm willing to give it a try. : ) Ken has provided a logical argument against meditation, but it seems more about the idea of practice than about the practice itself, that the idea of practice necessarily invokes the ego. This seems like an important but tangential argument that applies equally to anything that humans do, including all the things that are auspicious for reaching enlightenment. I have not been satisfied by any of the arguments that seek to distinguish sutta study and other activities from meditation as a practice that may lead to enlightenment. Over the months or years that these issues have come up, I have heard that breathing was used as a descriptive setting by the Buddha in the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta because those who Buddha addressed at that time happened to be versed in breathing meditation, as was the fashion in his day, and that there is no greater significance to his choosing breathing as a meditation object. This to me seems to ignore the fact that in every Eastern culture as well as some Western ones, breathing has come up time and again as a most intimate and useful device for meditation for many good reasons, and Buddha seems to me to have clearly embraced it as *one* major focus that can lead to states that are on the path to enlightenment. I have been told that jhana was not a most important and necessary part of the Buddhist path, and that one can do without jhana, especially since those practicing today have little practice in jhana or hope of achieving it. This does not take away from the fact that Buddha mentioned jhana and the relationship of the jhanas to enlightenment in some detail and with great prominence on more than one or two occasions. I am told that though the Buddha speaks of meditation quite a bit and describes the results of various aspects of meditation, that meditation is not an integral or important part of the Buddhist path, and that in fact meditation is harmful because it invokes a doer who will achieve enlightenment some time in the future. I have never understood how the reader and studier of suttas does not invoke a doer who will achieve enlightenment through gradually coming to understand the suttas thereby creating conditions for future kusala results just as much as the meditator does. Sukin proposed that the difference is that the sutta studier does not expect it to enlighten him, but only give him intellectual understanding which will then set the ground for conditions that will lead to enlightenment that the sutta reader does not attempt to control, and so it does not invoke the idea of a self who is doing it, but this does not make too much sense to me. If you are reading a sutta to create any kind of conditions that will eventually lead to enlightenment, or you are meditating with the idea that you will create conditions that will eventually lead to enlightenment, you are doing the exact same thing, only with a different activity. But those who make this distinction will not say that sutta reading is a better activity than meditation, because all activities are inherently the same in terms of giving the opportunity to notice the way in which the moment -- any moment -- arises in reality, so this cannot be the reason. It seems to me like a prejudice against meditation, based on a tradition which favors sutta study and discussion over personal practice in mindfulness, and I can't see a reason otherwise why meditation is seen as a more egoic activity than sutta study. I am told that the only "practice in accord with the Dharma" is the arising of satipatthana -- not the practice of arousing mindfulness through observation of the moment, but the actual arising of satipatthana -- although this is not a "practice" in any sense of the word, but a result that comes from without. In this definitionn of practice there is no practice that leads to it, so it is another happening based on arising conditions, and there is really nothing to practice. I have asked how then is this a practice in any sense of the word, and where and how has it been decided that satipatthana is the only practice that is in line with the Dharma, but I have not gotten any answer to these questions. I am waiting for these answers because I am extremely interested in hearing the explanation. I am not just trying to cause trouble but want to get deeper into this issue and see where it really lies. The idea that one cannot really practice anything but must simply understand arising conditions is very appealing in a sense, because as Sarah has recently noted, it is really the essence of Buddhism that it is not something that is achieved, but a question of understanding. I principally agree with this, but the question is: what is the appropriate way in which these conditions are created which lead to understanding? And there is quite a bit of disagreement there. But I want to get the full explanation and engage with it. Even if one is meditating they should do so with the understanding that there is nothing to control and no one to control it, and that they are just doing something that may create appropriate conditions for the arising of satipatthana. I have no argument with that. It just frustrates me that meditation is not seen as a perfectly fine, kusala activity for allowing these conditions to arise and acumulate, since it see it clearly as something that works and that the Buddha recommended. Anyway, this is a bit of a review of what has transpired so far. I do not expect anyone to just give up their view and swallow mine. But I also am hoping that others, as well as myself, will not be prisoners of tradition and dismiss ideas that are presumed to be akusala without examining them thoroughly. Thanks for letting me know you have found this discussion interesting, and my apologies for going on so long as usual. : ) Best, Robert Ep. ====================== 33846 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:15pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep > > A thought occurs to me that you have probably already considered. In > case not, here goes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > wrote: > > Where in the body of Sutta is the fourth factor of "practice in > > accordance with the Dhammma" defined as "satipatthana" and > > satipatthana only? [snip] i would very much > > like to see such a passage to read it for myself. > > I recall an exchange between Victor and Ken H in which they were > quoting sutta extracts to each other. However, each beleived that > the other's sutta extract actually supported his own view. > > It seems to me that the difference is not so much the words the > suttas use, but how they are read. Do you read the words literally > and give them their "natural" meaning (as far as this can be done one > language removed from the original)? Do you need to read the words > against a context (such as the nature of the physical audience)? Do > you permit of meanings on only one level or several all at once? > > These are real issues as evidenced by the suttas (discussed at length > with Victor in another thread) about when teachings need to be drawn > out and when they don't. > > You know all this far better than I do and, indeed, have been > discussing aspects with Ken H eg about "tortured" or unnecessarily > convoluted interpretations. > > If Ken H provides you with an "express" sutta reference that can only > possibly be read in the way he proposes, well and good for him. If > he cannot do so (and he has failed so far), can we determine that > ipso facto he is wrong? Hi again Andrew. I didn't really address the issue of different sutta interpretations, so just wanted to say a quick word about that. I'm pretty sure that most of us interpet the suttas according to their pre-existing beliefs about what they mean, rather than come at them fresh. I'm sure I do, and I'm pretty sure that this may be a part of the human condition. What it may take to gain wisdom as opposed to developing a long-term view which accumulates evidence and gets more support over time via one's own interpretations would be a pretty significant thread in its own right, and one worth developing. But it is when we think that our interpretation of the suttas is *not* based on any predisposition, but is merely the truth, that we get into problems. If we are stuck on our own interpretation as being the truth, then we are somewhat limited in the extent to which we can grow and learn. I think I learn more from my friends here I every time I debate these issues than I really want to. : ) I am influenced and find that I absorb certain ideas and they combine with my own understanding. I think that's the natural learning process, a gradual and subtle and occasionally shocking process. When we are closed off from this and think we should rather insulate ourselves from outside intrusions, then we really cease to learn and develop, and without growth of understanding, what hope do we have of the evolution that leads to wisdom? That's just my opinion of course. There's another way to look at it, and that is that once one is on the true path, one should only allow influences from those who are also on that path but who are further along and are thus a bit wiser. That may also be a more correct model than mine. Who knows? Mine is based on the idea that we learn from everyone and everything, although we use our discriminative understanding to put things in their appropriate place. But that may be too many random influences, and perhaps I am watering down my seed of Buddhahood by taking this attitude. : ) Best to you, Robert 33847 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi Sarah. Thanks for your reply. It contains some good subtle responses to some of the questions I raised, as well as very astute catching of my tendencies to assert this or that situation as being akusala. When you say that whether you hold onto a view is kusala or not depends on whether the view is kusala, whether the holding on is kusala, etc., you make it even more clear that once again there is nothing to hold onto, even one's view of holding on or not holding on, and that gets one down to a slightly more subtle level of seeing how tenaciously one [or I in this case] hold on subtly to this or that view about what to do, which contains a seed of self-hood in the tendency to want to know that certain things can be done to increase the conditions for enlightenment [or whatever else we desire.] Anyway, I appreciate that. Thanks also for saying I should keep challenging Ken H. and Sukin [yes, where is he?] You know I get nervous at times that I am so contrary, so that's appreciated. As for mutual back-patting, I guess we should neither cling nor be averse to it. Ha ha, I sense that there's some trouble with my view there. : ) Thanks again for the message. It has quite a few helpful ideas that I will review. Best, Robert Ep. ======================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Hi, Sarah! > > What you're saying make s a lot of sense, and keeps one from having a > > mental map of supporting conditions that is black and white. > .... > S: Let me just say that I think they?re a lot more subtle than we tend to > think. For example, we can?t just say that sitting in front of the Buddha > is a supporting condition because it would depend whether cittas with > wisdom are supported to arise and this will depned on many other > conditions too, such as whether any wisdom has arisen in the past, kamma > to condition hearing particular sounds and so on. [snip] =================== 33848 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member Dear Tzung Kuen, Welcome here. What a nice surprise after our discussions on Pali list about yoniso manasikaara. And also from former correspondence I remember your interest in Abhidhamma. Nina op 12-06-2004 05:35 schreef Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen op s4060239@s...: > I'm a PhD student studying Buddhism in University of Queensland in Australia 33849 From: Andrew Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:28pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep Thanks for your detailed thoughts which I am still digesting. You wrote: I have never understood how the reader and studier of suttas does not > invoke a doer who will achieve enlightenment through gradually coming > to understand the suttas thereby creating conditions for future kusala > results just as much as the meditator does. Sukin proposed that the > difference is that the sutta studier does not expect it to enlighten > him, but only give him intellectual understanding which will then set > the ground for conditions that will lead to enlightenment that the > sutta reader does not attempt to control, and so it does not invoke > the idea of a self who is doing it, but this does not make too much > sense to me. If you are reading a sutta to create any kind of > conditions that will eventually lead to enlightenment, or you are > meditating with the idea that you will create conditions that will > eventually lead to enlightenment, you are doing the exact same thing, > only with a different activity. I do confess that the point you make above has perplexed me in the past and continues to do so. In case you hadn't realised, I am highly qualified to give unqualified opinions - and here comes another one! (-: As an ex-Catholic, I know only too well how oft- repeated prayers and rituals quickly lose any mental force. I also have a memory of being told that the Buddha did not allow singing because people would focus on the nice tune and not the content of the "Dhamma song". It seems to me that this is one area where sutta study has an edge on meditation - I suspect that meditation can far more easily slip into a happy ritual and I can well imagine the Buddha warning clearly against this. Just as he clearly warned against the Dhamma studiers who "grasp the snake by the coils" and simply reinforce wrong view. Each different method has its own traps! Best wishes Andrew 33850 From: Andrew Date: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:54pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi again Rob Ep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > I'm pretty sure that most of us interpet the suttas according to their > pre-existing beliefs about what they mean, rather than come at them > fresh. I'm sure I do, and I'm pretty sure that this may be a part of > the human condition. What it may take to gain wisdom as opposed to > developing a long-term view which accumulates evidence and gets more > support over time via one's own interpretations would be a pretty > significant thread in its own right, and one worth developing. I agree. I have the impression that, for example, Jon and Sarah think you should constantly check your interpretation of the sutta against pivotal teachings like anatta and conditionality and "mould" the interpretation in a way that is consistent with those teachings. This makes sense to me and is akin to a judge reading the words of a statute so that it accords with public policy (in a case where a literal reading would produce results out of kilter with the overall intent). The "framework" is the determining factor not the "nitty gritty" of what the words appear to mean on face value. > But it is when we think that our interpretation of the suttas is *not* > based on any predisposition, but is merely the truth, that we get into > problems. If we are stuck on our own interpretation as being the > truth, then we are somewhat limited in the extent to which we can grow > and learn. Good point. Reminds me of those suttas wherein the Buddha describes monks who are easy to correct and ones that are hard to correct. RE: There's another way to look at it, > and that is that once one is on the true path, one should only allow > influences from those who are also on that path but who are further > along and are thus a bit wiser. That may also be a more correct model > than mine. This sort of begs the question, doesn't it? If I could tell who was on the true path, I'd have a good idea about the true path already. Perhaps at this point, we should revert to conditionality and the present moment. If true wisdom arises, it helps condition more in the future without any guarantee that it will continue continuously moment-after-moment thereafter. We need to know that each moment is a different collection of ultimate realities. We need to have an idea of how things work on the ultimate level and let that knowledge flavour our conventional lives. This has been a long process for me and still goes on! At first I thought that knowledge of ultimate reality was meant to make one turn away from conventional reality. But I found that I can't do without conventional reality and I presently believe that the idea is to see conventional reality through the prism of knowledge of ultimate reality. This, for example, doesn't debar meditation practice but requires it to be approached with clarity some may find hard to bring (meself included). Enough rambling! Best wishes Andrew 33851 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:22am Subject: Fwd: Re: DSG:Dhamma Thread ( 020 ) If a mind-door object is "obscure" rather than "clear", then there is no registration citta and the processing of the object stops with that mind-door process. Comments, Metta, Rob M :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Thanks for your kind comments on this message. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33852 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:24am Subject: Fwd: Re: DSG:Dhamma Thread ( 020 ) Dear Rob M, Sarah, and Dhamma Friends, As the threads are originally from DSG, I forwarded the following message of discussion from triplegem. I hope this is useful. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear Tep and All, Thanks for your reply and I try to answer all your questions below. Your questions are fine and good. They should be raised in such circumstance while we are discussing leading to fruitful outcome. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I must simply express that I am not disturbed by questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Dear Htoo, I know quite well that it is hard to explain a difficult subject matter to beginners. Thank you for sincerely trying anyway. Let me give you a feedback of what I've learned, which is not much. 1. The tadarammana citta operates for two sub-moments-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. One tadarammana citta operates for 3 sub-moments or 1 citta moment. It always arises for 2 successive times. It arises twice. So it takes 2 citta moments. Not 2 sub-moments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: its function is to "retain" (not clear; is this same same as hand- holding?) the same object which the javana citta is operating upon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Tadarammana citta retains the object which is the same as javana cittas took. If javana cittas see ruparammana or sight, then tadarammana cittas also see ruparammana. If javana cittas hear saddarammana or sound, then tadarammana cittas also hear sound. If javana cittas smell gandharammana or smell, then tadarammana cittas smell gandharammana or smell. If javana cittas taste rasarammana or taste, then tadarammana cittas taste rasarammana or taste. If javana citta touch photthabbarammana or touch-object, then tadarammana citta touch photthabbarammana or touch-object. If javana citta know dhammarammana or mind-object, then tadarammana cittas know dhammarammana or mind-object. Tadarammana comprises 'tada' and 'arammana', which I have explained repeatedly. Tada means 'then' 'after' 'afterwards'. Arammana means object. So it means 'afterobject'. Out of above 6 examples, the first 5 may confuse with pancavinnana cittas. Pancavinnana cittas take the object. Tadarammana cittas also take the object. So both sentence may not mean anything. By the same token all other vithi cittas take the object. And all bhavanga cittas, patisandhi cittas, cuti cittas all take their specific object. So saying like this may not mean anything. But as I posted in the series, the first vithi vara citta which is pancadvaravajjana citta in case of pancarammana take the object that appear 3 citta-moments ago. A rupa ( excluding vinatti rupas and lakkhana rupas ) last 17 citta- moments or 51 sub-moments. The earliest sub-moment is called upada and it is just initiation. So at that time that rupa cannot fully serve as an object because it is still weak. But it reaches it maturity in the next 49 sub-moments and the last sub-moment is called bhanga sub-moment. Bhanga is 'disappearing' and at the end it totally disappears. That rupa arises. That arising rupa say ruparammana or sight ( colour and light ) hit cakkhuppasada which is another rupa that arises at the same time of arising of ruparammana. There is no attention at their striking. There is no phassa cetasika at the striking. Because citta at that time is bhavanga citta and it is flowing like a flowing river. But as a strong arammana or clear object arises, bhavanga cittas are disturbed and have to come to a halt. But this has to complete only after 3 citta moments. This is like a running man. If he is ordered to stop running, he will try to stop as soon as he knows he has to stop. But he will overshoot for about 2 or 3 steps. Now atita bhavanga citta, bhavanga calana citta, and bhavangupaccheda citta have passed away. The arammana has been there for 3 citta- moments. At 4th citta-moment, pancadvaravajjana citta arises taking the object arammana say ruparammana. This taking may means nothing if it is said just take the object. Actually, yes it just take the object ruparammana ( let's see the example for sight ). This taking is just taking, just holding and it does not know what it is. But it checks, contemplates what door does the arammana comes in. It knows that ruparammana comes in through cakkhudvara or eye-door. So the name of pancadvaravajjana in this vithi vara is cakkhudvaravajjana citta. This citta has already checked that the door is eye door. It just passes away. Next citta arises. It is cakkhuvinnana citta. This happens. Because the doors have been checked and door-opener ( cakkhuvinnana citta ) receives the information to open the door. As soon as avajjana citta passes away, cakkhuvinnana citta arises. This citta also takes the object. It is the sight in this example. This transferral of object must not be confused with physical transferring. Cittas are not physical things. To know them, they are just compared with physical things. While avajjana citta just checks and adverts as its function, pancavinnana citta takes the same object. But its function is to know the nature of arammana. Its function is vinnana. Vi means distinctive and nana means knowledge. In this case, it is cakkhuvinnana citta. Its function is to know the sight distinguishingly. Among 28 paramattha rupas, only cakkhuvinnana citta does the function of seeing that is the function of knowing sight at eye particularly. Next citta is sampaticchana citta. It just takes the object. This is also not a physical transferring. It arises just to receive the object that has been taken by cakkhuvinnana citta in this case. Next citta is santirana citta. It also just takes the object which is the same object. This is also not a physical transferring. Now the rupa that is ruparammana is 7 citta-moments old. And cakkhuppasada rupa is also 7 citta-moments old. Santirana citta just takes the same object. Functionwise, it investigates what the arammana is like. It just passes away. Just before its passing away, it knows what the object is like. Next arises votthapana citta or determining consciousness. This citta is manodvaravajjana citta by its name but functionwise it is working as votthapana citta that is determination on the object. It just makes a decision and it just does the work of determination or decision. But it does not implement anything. So it is just kiriya citta. This citta is not akusala citta and equally not kusala citta. And still it is not a vipaka citta. But it suggests next arising citta to feel impulsively on the arammana and also next successive arising citta feel fully and they all ( all 7 javana cittas ) implement what has been decided. It is javana citta which implement the actions. If you are sitting upright, this posture is maintained by javana cittas. In which way? Javana cittas are impulsive cittas and they are implementing what has been decided by manodvaravajjana citta as it does votthabbapa function. These impulsive cittas cause arising of cittaja rupas including vinattirupas. Your sitting position comprises kayavinattirupa. This vinattirupa only arises in life. And it just last 1 citta moment unlike other paramattha rupa which last 17 citta- moments. Your sitting position is maintained by these successive javana cittas. If there was sitting death, there would not be kayavinatti. Javana cittas of arahats do not possess any defilement and their javana cittas are ineffectual that is they do not generate kamma while all other javana cittas produce kamma. Unlike javana cittas, next arising tadarammana cittas are vipaka ciattas and they are just resultant cittas. They do not produce any kamma but they themselves are the result of past kamma. Just before arising of the 1st tadarammana citta, the rupas that is ruparammana (vanna or colour in this instance ) and cakkhuppasada rupa are 15 citta-moments old. They have left 2 citta-moments. After these 2 moments, they both will pass away and no one dictate them to pass away. Out of 17 moments, 2 moments left. These 2 moments have to be vithi cittas. In these places, no other vithi citta can arise except tadarammana cittas. Tadarammana citta just takes the object which is now at 16th moment. This taking or holding is done by tadarammana cittas. Functionwise tadarammana citta just retains the old object that has been taken by javana cittas. Retain here means keep holding, keep taking, maintaining, persistent keeping of the arammana or object. The 2nd tadarammana just does the same job. As soon as 51th sub-moment has lapsed, all rupas that is ruparammana or vanna ( colour in this case ), cakkhuppasada rupa, 2nd tdarammana citta along with its cetasikas pass away at the very same time. All seem to finish. But there are still kamma. So even though there is no sense impression or no object that is pancarammana or dhammarammana at that exact moment, a citta has to arise as there left many many kamma. This citta is bhavanga citta or life continuum. But it takes the object which is the same object that was taken by patisandhi citta. So between 15th moment and 0th moment, there are 2 moments of temporal space and this gap is occupied by tadarammana cittas. They just retain, maintain, keep going, keep taking, keep knowing, keep sensing the same object that was taken by javana cittas. So the function of tadarammana citta is to retain the object. I personally do not agree this function as registering. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Therefore, when the tadarammana citta terminates the same object being retained (for two sub-moments) is gone too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Just amendment. For 2 citta moments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: But why the same object? What is that for? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because there exist rupas. One exists as arammana or object and one exists as dvara or door. At the time the 1st tadarammana arise that rupa ruparammana is 16th citta-moments old. At the arising time of 2nd tadarammana citta, rupas both arammana and dvara are 17 citta- moments old. After that they both cannot exist any longer. As both rupa still exist, ruparammana or the object sight still exists. So tadarammana takes the same object. 'Why is that for?'. As there left only 2 citta-moments and as no other vithi citta can take these positions, as no bhavanga citta can take these 2 positions, only tadarammana cittas have to take both these 2 positions. The function here is retention. You can check in the dictionary the meaning of 'retain' 'and retention'. Register is not appropriate, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 2. At the time the tadarammana citta ceases, the next bhavanga citta arises to take another object (whatever it may be). I still am not clear what the tadarammana cittas do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do hope at this time the matter is clear. If still not please just let me know. I would try in another way of explanation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: You used words like 'retain', 'register', maintenance, and 'take' an object, but these words don't mean a thing until the function of tadarammana is clearly stated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This time, it should be cleared off. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: So, can you explain all the above by means of a real-life example, say, during a meditation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These matters are so detailed that they are like examination under a microscope to see gems and microbes. Real life that you think is actually illusion and illusion cannot take the place of paramattha dhamma. But to cognise nama dhamma effectively, vipassana meditation helps a lot the meditators. The details may or may not be required to understand. But these details are understood, there is little chance of arising of big akusala. The reason that I am writing these 'Dhamma Thread' is to share my understanding which might also helps other to understand and another reason is to part practical matter in later posts. In later posts practical and daily life reflection will be discussed to some extent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: How do you verify that the following data are correct? "There are 17 cittakkhana in a rupa. As 1 cittakkhana has 3 sub- moment or anukhana, a rupa also has 51 sub-moments." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These matters are really high and beyond ordinary mental power. Only The Buddha knows all details and more than these details. I just take and write these with the material aid from Abhidhamma Pitaka. But if you manage to attain jhana and its power along with mahasatipatthana, some parts of these details may possibly be seen with direct knowledge. Go into 4th rupa jhana. Then emerge from it and take paccavakkhana contemplation on the 4th jhana. Even though you may not see ( direct knowledge or realise ) these 17 moments, among billions of cittas that have happen, you may recognise thousands of them. According to Abhidhamma, even The Buddha has left 2 bhavanga cittas in between changing. Jhana cittas when in javanas cause cittaja rupas. When The Buddha shows yamaka pyatihara or miracle, jhana cittas that take different kasina objects have to arise to show these. Examples; To show flame arising from eyes, ears etc need tejo kasina and to show fountain jetting from each eye alternatively needs apo kasina, to stand in the sky need pathavi kasina and so on. When these matters are being managed, Jhana cittas have to arise in quick succession. When a kasina is changed to another kasina, for ordinary people that is for non-ariya or non-arahats, bhavanga cittas intervene in terms of thousands or millions or even billions. Great arahats have less bhavanga cittas in between. Even in case of The Buddha, the minium is 2 bhavanga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Are these cittakkhanas actually countable? How were the measurements made? Did someone actually observe and count the anokhanas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are Abhidhamma description. They are relativity. Do scientists weigh hydrogen atom? In which way. The Buddha who first discovers all Dhamma in all details knows everything and every detail. 'Bhikkhus, what I have taught you is like the leaves in my hand and what I know is like all the leaves in this forest', said The Buddha. The Buddha discovers impermance. Both rupa dhamma and nama dhamma happen that is arise and fall away in quick succession. Happening among nama and rupa, nama dhamma happen faster than rupa dhamma. If the Vipassana practice is perfect these may possibly be seen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: All my questions are asked out of my curiosity, they are not fault finding and not intended to irritate or aggravate you. Reagrds, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand your sincerity. And I sincerely answer as I have sensed and as I believe which were absorbed when I studied Abhidhamma, which again was reinforced by the vipassana and samatha practice. May you attain what you intend for. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- End forwarded message --- 33853 From: Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:48am Subject: Tolerant spirit of dsg - was,Re: Hello, I'm a new member Dear Christine, Howard and others, After closing down my old email address and subscription to my previous server, I had not received any dsg letters since the beginning of the month. Yesterday, I re-registered at Yahoo, and so it was with great delight that I received today's posts (Sunday, June 13) with the letter from Bhikkhu Bodhi and the wonderful sutta Christine found in the Anguttara that says it all re: meditators v. scholars (it is saved in a special folder titled "from Christine F"). When we "look down" at others and their methods, whether "favoring" the meditative path (because of accumulations), or tending towards the scholars' path (because of accumulations), we only harm ourselves, as it was so beautifully stated in the sutta. At such a moment, when dosa arises, so also does mana (because there is a comparing when finding one way "better" than the other). Both are akusala and thereby cannot condition the arising of kusala in any form. In addition, both the meditators and scholars cite the Tipitaka to support their points of view and then claim there are no citations within the scriptures themselves supporting the other's point of view. For one who is rather ignorant of the scriptures, this is very confusing. Finding supporting citations is further compounded by the vast size of the entire Tipitaka. Both samatha, the development of calmness, and vipassana, the development of insight/understanding, are two sides of the bhavana coin, so to speak. So, why should each be mutually exclusive until, as is traditionally taught, the 4th jhana is attained, a stage that might not be "arrived" at for many lifetimes? Calmness cannot be developed if there is no arising of understanding; understanding cannot develop if there is no arising of calmness (at the same moment). So, for those who are meditators, "check out" what the scholars are saying before rejecting them with dosa (aversion). And for those who are scholars, "check out" samatha "meditation" before rejecting it. Comments are welcome. metta, Betty Anguttara Nikaya 6.46 " Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: `Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana). "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: `Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." Note 22: If people refuse to give respect or recognition to those with talents, temperaments or pursuits different from those of their own, only mutual displeasure will result. An exclusive emphasis on one-sided development will not lead to progress and true happiness, which can be found only in an ever-renewed attempt at harmonizing what should be complementary, and not antagonistic, in the human mind and in society..." 33854 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:26am Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member Dear Nina Good to see you again here. You are always a reliable dhamma friend. Yes, I am interested in Theravada tradition, especially its Abhidhamma, commentaries and meditation methods. They can be combined together, according to Burmese Sayadaws, such as Pa-Auk Sayadaw, Mogok Sayadaw... There are a lot for me to learn. with metta Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. ----- 즳«H¥ó ----- ±H¥ó¤H: nina van gorkom ¤é´Á: ¬P´Á¤Ñ, ¤»¤ë 13, 2004 2:38 ¤U¤È ¥D¦®: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member > Dear Tzung Kuen, > Welcome here. What a nice surprise after our discussions on Pali > list about > yoniso manasikaara. > And also from former correspondence I remember your interest in > Abhidhamma.Nina > op 12-06-2004 05:35 schreef Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen op > s4060239@s...:> I'm a PhD student studying Buddhism > in University of Queensland in Australia 33855 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:44am Subject: |^¡GRe: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member Dear Sarah, Jack, Howard and Christine Thanks a lot fro your warm wellcome. I think I will enjoy lots of your dhamma gifts here. metta, Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. ----- -€ ©ì‘Ü3€ ©«‘¨¥ó ----- € ©±‘¨¥ó?H: Sarah ?€ ©é´Á: € ©¬P€ ©´Á?€ ©», ?€ ©»?€ ©ë 12, 2004 8:45 ?‘µ?€ ©È € ©¥‘¤|€ ©®: ‘²e: [dsg] Hello, I'm a new member > Hi Tzungkuen, > > Thank you very much for joining DSG and giving a brief introduction. > > --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > > > Hello, Dhamma friends > > > > I'm a PhD student studying Buddhism in University of Queensland in > > Australia > > I became a Buddhist 10 years ago since I studied in university in > > Taiwan, where I grew up. Now, I'm interesing in Theravada > Buddhism and > > its meditation methods. > .... > S: As I mentioned (off-list), Qld is well-represented here and you > my know > Christine already. From time to time other Taiwanese members have > postedtoo, though maybe not for a while. Jon and I live in Hong > Kong, so of > course we have many Taiwanese friends here. > > I?ll be posting the letters from B.Bodhi and the one from yourself on > ?sukkhavipassaka? and the Susima Sutta in the next couple of days > whichmany people will find interesting I?m sure. Thank you for > your permission > to post your letter which B.Bodhi sent me. I?ll also be posting his > article on the same topic in sections (I need to do a little > re-formatting) and look forward to further discussion or comments > from you > if you have time and inclination only. > > The posts are generally backed up at escribe which has a useful search > engine, but it seems to have been down for a few days now: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ > > You may also like to look at a few posts kept aside by the moderators > under ?dry insight?, jhana and nibbana?, ?stapanna?, ?Susima Sutta, > ?Abhidhamma - origins? in the meantime. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > Thank you again for joining us here. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 33856 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Andrew, Rob Ep and Ken H I think your comments are quite appropriate here, Andrew. As we have all come to realise, there is nothing in the suttas that is as explicit as we might like to see on this vexed question. So it is a matter of making the best of indirect references. Below are a couple of references to 'practising in accordance with the dhamma' from the Samyutta Nikaya (trans Bhikkhu Bodhi), with footnotes quoting from the commentary. In the first (SN 22:39), which is in the section on the five aggregates, the expression "practising in accordance with the Dhamma" is explained in the commentary as "practising the preliminary portion of the practice that is in conformity with the ninefold supramundane Dhamma" (these nine being the four paths, their fruits, and nibbaana). The sutta then goes on to say that one who is to practise in accordance with the Dhamma "should dwell engrossed in revulsion towards" the five aggregates; that one who so dwells "fully understands" the five aggregates; that one who so understands "is freed from" the five aggregates, freed from birth etc, freed from suffering. In the second (SN 12:16), which is in the section on dependent origination, the sutta gives "practising for the purpose of revulsion towards" the factors of dependent origination as an equivalence for the expression "practising in accordance with the dhamma". The commentary and sub-commentary elaborate on expression "practising in accordance with the dhamma" as meaning "practising the way whose nature is appropriate for the achievement of Nibbana". Jon From 'Connected Discourses of the Buddha' (Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< A. SN 22:39 (p. 882) "Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma,[51] this is what accords with the dhamma: he should dwell engrossed in revulsion towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness.[52] One who dwells engrossed in revulsion towards form ... and consciousness fully understands form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness. One who fully understands form ... and consciousness is freed from form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness. He is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say." [51] Spk: "when he is practising the preliminary portion of the practice that is in conformity with the ninefold supramundane Dhamma (the four paths, their fruits, and nibbaana)." [52] 'Nibbidaa', "revulsion," is usually taken to refer to an advanced level of insight, which follows knowledge and vision of things as they really are. Spk explains "fully understands" by way of the three kinds of full understanding, and "is freed (parimuccati) as meaning "freed through the full understanding of abandonment arisen at the moment of the path." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< B. SN 12:16 "... If one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards aging-and-death, for its fading away and cessation, one is fit to be called a bhikkhu who is practising in accordance with the dhamma.[34] ... If one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards ignorance, for its fading away and cessation, one is fit to be called a bhikkhu who is practising in accordance with the dhamma. ..." [34] Spk: "one practising the way that is in accordance with the supramundane Nibbaana-dhamma." Spk-p.t glosses 'nibbaana-dhamma' as "the noble path bringing Nibbaana," and explains "(the way) that is in accordance with" it as meaning "(the way) whose nature is appropriate for the achievement of Nibbaana". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- Andrew wrote: > Hi Rob Ep ... > It seems to me that the difference is not so much the words the > suttas use, but how they are read. Do you read the words literally > and give them their "natural" meaning (as far as this can be done one > language removed from the original)? Do you need to read the words > against a context (such as the nature of the physical audience)? Do > you permit of meanings on only one level or several all at once? > > These are real issues as evidenced by the suttas (discussed at length > with Victor in another thread) about when teachings need to be drawn > out and when they don't. > > You know all this far better than I do and, indeed, have been > discussing aspects with Ken H eg about "tortured" or unnecessarily > convoluted interpretations. > > If Ken H provides you with an "express" sutta reference that can only > possibly be read in the way he proposes, well and good for him. If > he cannot do so (and he has failed so far), can we determine that > ipso facto he is wrong? > > I must confess to being perplexed about the view (not necessarily > yours) that "everything is in the suttas". I'm sure it is ... but > how to draw the meaning out to my level of understanding is the more > tricky part. 33857 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:46am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hello Rob, and all Rob: > Naming is the key. This is a bit repetitive from my earlier post, but > let's consider a visible object. Ph: Thanks for going through this again for me. Part of me is content to lazily consider easier-to-grasp aspects of Abdhidhamma, such as akusla cetasikas which are relatively clear to identify. But you are encouraging me towards making the effort to consider visible objects, for example, or difficult-to-grasp citta sense door processes. I appreciate that. Today I read 5 of the chapters in ADL that I have put off because they seemed difficult and highly technical. (13-17) I think your msgs conditined that. Tonight I feel that I am gaining in confidence. On that point, I read this in Abhidhamma in Daily Life (p.133) "One may wonder whether it is necessary to know in detail about cittas and their functions. It is not enough to know only about kusala cittas and akusala cittas? (snip) We should know also about other kinds of cittas which perform different functions in the processes of cittas and which arise because of different conditions. Then there will be more understanding of the fact that there is no self which can direct the arising of particular cittas at particular moments." And I feel tonight that in the lists of cittas, and the flow charts and all those Pali names there lies the road to beginning to understand annata and beyond that the road to liberation. I feel very confident about that tonight. >Rob: We can see from this Sutta that naming plays a pivotal role. >A baby >does not have the memories required to name and therefore their >reaction to the environment is very direct and "to the moment". Phil: Isn't that our goal? We aspire to have direct and to the moment experience of paramattha dhammas. So if we are to have direct experience of paramattha dhammas, I would have thought that would mean shedding the names. As soon as there is a name, isn't there thinking, and no longer the direct reality? In my previous e- mail, I mentioned having read from people who became keen on Abhidhamma that after an intial first few years of eagerly identifying things by name ("There was lobha" for example, they found themselves experiencing lobha without using the word lobha. I guess it was still being named in the sense of clearly identified, but not named in the sense of putting a word to it. Do you know what I'm getting at? I'm puzzled by this "named." Do we keep thinking "there is lobha" etc even as our understanding increases, or do we just directly understand lobha without needing to label it"lobha?" Maybe I'm confusing conventional meaning of "named" with "named" in the citta processes. Does named mean given a name, in Pali or English, or does named mean identified by cittas in a way that is clear for the process but is unknown by our conscious mind? Do the words come to the mind later, with the further mental proliferation, the thinking? I'm a bit sleepy. I hope the above makes at least a little bit of sense. Later - I return to the above lengthy babble that I wrote when I was sleepy last night, having found this sutta passage in ADL (171) quoting Kindred Sayings (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. V, 152) : "Therein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and ignorance, thus: I have lust, malice, and ignorance -or recognizes the non-existence of these things" The monk here uses an explicit name. So we will be explicitly naming mental states until the end of the path? Thanks for the very interesting analysis of the Honeyball Sutta. I would like to ask you more about it if we have a chance to meet - and if not, I'll ask you here! :) Metta, Phil 33858 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction Hi Larry!!! > Hi Icaro, > > Thanks, it's clearer now, Good to hear it, pal!!! but that's not my question. I can see why all > the khandhas are sankhara, but why are sankhara cetasikas _more_ > sankhara? Again, we find ourselves treading hopelessly on splippery grounds! The cetasikas are a kind of "thought private property" of the bare Citta. Remember we get 52 Cetasikas on the Nikayas, that have the pure citta as their first term. Quoting the PTS Pali-Eng. Dict. one more time: Cetasika (p. 271) (adj.) belonging to ceto, mental (opp. kayika physical). Kayikan sukhan > cetasikan s. A I.81; S V. 209; kayika daratha > c. d. M III.287, 288; c. duk khan D II 306; A I.157; c. roga J III.337. c. kamma is sila 8--10 (see under cetana) Nett 43. -- As n. combd with citta it is to be taken as supplementing it, viz. mind & all that belongs to it, mind and mental properties, adjuncts, co--efficients (cp. vitakka--vicara & sach cpds. as phalaphala, bhavabhava) D I.213; see also citta. Occurring in the Nikayas in sg. only, it came to be used in pl. and, as an ultimate category, the 52 cetasikas, with citta as bare consciousness, practically superseded in mental analysis, the 5 khandha--category. See Cpd. p. 1 and pt. II. Mrs. Rh. D., Bud. Psy. 6, 148, 175. --°cetasika dhamma Ps I.84; Vbh 421; Dhs 3, 18, etc. (cp. Dhs. trsl. pp. 6, 148 The kayika reality is builded by khandas that are aggregates by essence. The Cetasika, belonging to mind and opposed to the Kaya - body - is also builded up by aggregates. But since we are at the mental analysis,we meet that strange pali word Sankhara fencing either mind or corporeal notes by the context, more mind notes than body´s as a matter of fact. So, as a personal viewpoint ( I am not a Pali and Sutta scholar!!!) the sankhara Khandas, while tying defenseless meditators on Padmassana in a hard effort to clarify such pali puzzles, plays a definite rule on mind affairs, being "more" Sankhara than the Kayika ones! My sentiments precisely, Larry! mettaya, Ícaro 33859 From: Larry Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction Hi Icaro, Thanks for all your research. I think we'll have to meditate on this one a little more, i.e., sankhara, aka dependent arising, also impermanence, what does it mean. Larry 33860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, NUM, Question Dear Htoo, op 12-06-2004 13:01 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > In our Myanmar daily usage, I think there is a word which is not > right. We use the word 'Karunadoso'. > > If a child that is the own child of a parent or parents did something > which should not have done, the parent/s respond with some sort of > action which is externally aversion-like. An example is the parent > may scold the child or give punishment. > How will you explain when the parent does not really have ill-will in > scolding or giving punishment? Is it dosa? Or is it karuna? Or is it > a mixture? Or anything else? N: Yes, I also read about this. A parent has to speak loudly sometimes for the sake of the child. He has to consider his citta, nobody else can know. There are likely to be different moments then of compassion then of aversion or anger. It can be good for a small child if the parent speaks loudly, otherwise he does not understand. Atthasalini (Expositor I, p. 133) under harsh speech: It is explained that words are not harsh if the heart is tender. Also the opposite: nice words but bad intentions: You want to research kamma patha. Patha is course, way. The Expositor describes kamma with all the factors that make it a complete course, and can thus produce an unhappy rebirth. When those factors are not complete kamma can still produce a result during life. But, as Num said long ago, it is the field of Buddhas to know exactly which kamma can produce which result. We should not try to pinpoint. We just do not know. But this does not matter, we have a task to perform: the development of right understanding and all kinds of kusala. What use is it to worry about akusala cittas which have fallen away already, and doubt whether these will produce result or not. Your daily life examples (Johnny, etc) are great, inspiring. I can't get enough of them! Htoo: P.S: You include lakkhana, rasa, paccuppatthana, and padatthana of > karuna cetasika in this message. Actually, I want to collect these 4 > differentiating features of all 52 cetasikas, nibbana, and citta. N: Nibbana has no proximate cause, it is unconditioned. I think for nibbana these four features will not apply. Here are the four: We read in the Atthasalini, Part II, Ch I, 63 (Expositor, p. 84), Analysis of terms: < 1 ...the specific of generic attributes of these, or those states, are termed the 'characteristic' (lakkhana.m) 2.Essential property (rasa) means function or achievement. 3.Recurring phenomenon (paccupa.t.thaana) means mode of manifestation, or effect. 4. Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause.> As to no 2: citta and cetasikas perform functions, they have tasks to do. As to 4: pada.t.thaana, proximate cause: pada can mean foot or basis, .t.thaana: place. In the Guide (Netti) it is translated as footing. Thus, it is an important foundation. The proximate cause of a dhamma may arise at the same time as that dhamma. All this will be clearer as we come to each dhamma that has these four features. It is difficult to speak in a general sense of them. Nina. > 33861 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Rob: retention Dear Rob M and Htoo, op 12-06-2004 22:49 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: As for the registration cittas, (snipped) I see > the "marking" function of sanna as playing an important role. > > I like to think of the registration cittas as "super short term > memory" that allows the object "to be passed from one citta processes > to another citta process". If a sense-door object is not "very > great", then there is no registration citta and the processing of the > object stops with the sense-door process. If a mind-door object > is "obscure" rather than "clear", then there is no registration citta > and the processing of the object stops with that mind-door process. N: I am not inclined to see sanna playing a more important role here. I like the way Htoo explains retention and answers Tep's questions. A good idea to hear what is going on on other lists. Tadarammana citta only arises in the sensuous planes and in processes of sense sphere cittas, kamavacara cittas. We cling so much to sense objects and it is not without reason that kamma produces two more moments of vipaka, experiencing the sense object that impinged two more moments. The tadarammana cittas are just hanging on to that object, that is all. Then the gap comes of the bhavangacittas which experience their own object and they are accompanied by sanna marking that object. Then other processes arise again, and these cittas are accompanied by sañña. There can be conditions for sañña to remember an object after many years, and I do not see a special task of sañña that accompanies tadarammanacittas which may or may not arise. And also without there being tadarammanacittas (when the sense object is not very great and the mind-door object is not clear but obscure) sañña can remember objects when there are conditions for it to do so. Nina. 33862 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, sankhara. Hi Larry, op 12-06-2004 06:56 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could we say the cetasikas in the sankhara khandha are efficient > conditions or proximate conditions while the other khandhas are > secondary conditions but all the khandhas are equally conditioned, > meaning impermanent? I can see why all the khandhas are sankhara, but why are sankhara cetasikas _more_ sankhara? N: See: Vis. XIV, 131, 132; Forming: agglomerating it is said. Tiika: characteristic of adding together, having the function of accumulating. (sa.mpi.ndana, pi.nda: lump or heap). So described because volition is their basis. As said: volition, kamma, is accumulated. I glanced at the Tiika, but we have to study it more as we come to it. English words can be real stumbling blocs. The word abhisa.nkhaara is used again, thus we think of kamma of the Dependent origination. The Tiika also speaks about producing a result, phala or fruit. It is also said that the other nama-khandhas are its proximate cause: citta, perception and feeling. In answering Htoo I say more on proximate cause. Thus, I would not say that only those 50 cetasikas are proximate cause. Volition is a leader, and included are akusala cetasikas, sobhana cetasikas and indeterminate cetasikas. Volition wills kusala and akusala, and it also coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas, as we shall see. Also rupakkhandha, think of all those rupas, are important conditions for life to go on. Feeling and perception are important conditions, they are each a seperate khandha. All of them are conditioned (Tiika mentions the word sankhata, conditioned, for: formed) by many intricate conditions and they are conditioning other dhammas in many ways. They are not only impermanent, but also dukkha and non-self. By seeing more conditions we understand better that there is no self who owns the khandhas. The fact that volition is called principal in accumulating and performing its task does not mean that the other cetasikas are not important. They are. I liked what you said here: L: As A. Sujin said, many different moments of intellectual understanding, awareness, etc. are accumulated as sankhaarakkhandha. The blossom will appear when the time is ripe. This also helped me to understand the Upanisa Sutta: all those conditions resulting in seeing things as they are and emancipation. Nina. 33863 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 0:07pm Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Friend James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > S:> from: SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and > > M104, Saamagaama Sutta > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591 > > > J: > James: Thank you for this link; I hadn't read this post. However, I > > don't really see how these sutta quotes relate to the subject we are > > discussing. None of them speak about jealousy. Did I miss > > something? I read that post a couple of times and I don't see > > jealousy mentioned in the sutta quotes. > .... > S: I agree that sometimes my logic isn't evident or I may not spell out > clearly what the references are referring to. > > 1) Saamagaama Sutta, 104 > This sutta specifically refers to the same factors listed in the > commentaries as being eradicated by the sotapanna, i.e: > > "Again, a bhikkhu is contemptuous and domineering....envious [i.e jealous] > and avaricious [i.e stinginess].....wrong view ...." > > jealousy and envy are both translations of the Pali `issaa'. Some people > may like to read more from Nina's `Cetasikas' on these mental factors: > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas21.html > > Even though this sutta above didn't mention `sotapanna', it mentions that > a bhikkhu with these qualities `dwells disrespectful and undeferential' > towards the Triple Gem and `he does not fulfil the training.' A sotapanna, > by contrast, has full confidence and respect for the Triple Gem. > ..... > 2)SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 > > I agree that the passage I quoted from this sutta didn't mention jealousy. > I thought other qualities listed in the commentary as being eradicated by > the sotapanna were being discussed too, like stinginess, specifically > mentioned here. In this case, the qualities mentioned are clearly > eradicated by the sotapanna, again the one `accomplished in faith' and > also virtue. > > I thought that if the two suttas are put together, the evidence is pretty > compelling, even for those who'd prefer to disregard the commentaries and > Abhidhamma which spell it out more clearly perhaps. > .... > >The first sutta, SN55, > > speaks about stinginess being eradicated, but not jealousy. > > Couldn't one be generous and jealous at the same time? > .... > S: No, there can't be wholesome and unwholesome mind-states at the same > time, but they can follow each other closely. > ... > >I think so. > > One could be jealous that others have more money to give away! ;- )) > > hehehe… > .... > ;-) One could well be jealous like this, but then there wouldn't be any > generosity or open-handedness at that moment! There could be mudita > (appreciation) of the other's generosity or the fact that they have more > to give away, followed by jealousy, followed by generosity itself when one > shares a little of what one has (which could be knowledge or kind words or > anything;-)). > > This is a good thread and I'm glad you're asking me to clarify my comments > and quotes. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== Friend Sarah, I am having a difficult time following your analysis of these suttas, even after you have further explained. I am looking for a straightforward sutta, like the one I presented that discussed jealousy, which clearly demonstrates that a sotapanna eradicates jealousy. It appears to me like you are taking parts of different suttas and combining them to draw a conclusion. Why? If jealousy is eradicated in the sotapanna, I don't see why the Buddha wouldn't have clearly said so. Allow me to quote another sutta where the Buddha directly addresses jealousy, what causes it, and how to eradicate it, MN 101 "At Devadaha": 24. "Suppose bhikkhus, a man loved a woman with his mind bound to her by intense desire and passion. He might see that woman standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing. What do you think, bhikkhus? Would not sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair arise in that man when he sees that woman standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing?" "Yes, venerable sir. Why is that? Because that man loves that woman with his mind bound to her by intense desire and passion; that is why sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair would arise in him when he sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing." 25. "Then, bhikkhus, the man might think: `I love this woman with my mind bound to her by intense desire and passion; thus sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair arise in me when I see her standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing. What if I were to abandon my desire and lust for that woman?' He would abandon his desire and lust for that woman. On a later occasion he might see that woman standing with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing. What do you think, bhikkhus? Would sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair arise in that man when he sees that woman standing with another man…?" "No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because that man no longer loves that woman; that is why sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair do not arise in him when he sees that woman standing with another man…" James: Here the Buddha explains that jealousy is caused by desire, craving, and lust. A sotapanna hasn't eliminated all traces of desire, craving, and lust; only an arahant has done that. Therefore, I don't understand how it can be said that a sotapanna has eradicated jealousy. According to the suttas, many sotapannas were householders and loved and cared for a spouse. According to the Buddha in this sutta, where there is romantic love of that nature, there is going to be jealousy. There is no way around it. Also, we seem to be nitpicking over the issue as to if various mind states can arise at the same time. Sarah, you state that according to the Abhidhamma they cannot. Personally, I believe that they can because I don't follow the Abhidhamma model in this regard. I am more influenced by modern brain research which shows the different areas of the brain, responsible for different emotions, can be activated at the same time. Also, to draw your attention to the sutta quoted above, the Buddha said that "sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair" all arise in the man who is jealous. I believe that these are different emotional states and the Buddha doesn't say that they arise one at a time; he says that they all arise at once. This will have to be my last post on this thread for a while. Sarah, could you do me a favor and keep track of any posts on this thread and I will contact you off-list when I return from my vacation? Thanks. Metta, James 33864 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Accumulations/ conditi ons ( was Tolerant spirit of dsg) Hello Betty, and all. I appreciated you gentle, sensible consideration of the topic of meditation/scholarship, Betty - as I did all the other posts in this thread. Your post brought up another question for me. >Betty: When we "look down" at others and their methods, >whether "favoring" the meditative path (because of accumulations), >or tending towards the scholars' path (because of accumulations), we >only harm ourselves, as it was so beautifully stated in the sutta. Phil: I am confused about the difference betwen "conditions" and "accumulations." For example, with respect to meditation, it is quite clear to me that I will not have the opportunity to develop jhanas in this lifetime, unless there is an unexpected change. I live in a small apartment with my wife and noisy neighbours and a tendency to get sleepy when I meditate. Meditation retreats are not an option becase I work on weekends and in any case I live in Japan where a different kind of meditation is practiced. It doesn't seem jhanas will be a part of my life, though I knew things could change. For now, meditation is simply a way of developing calm at times, and providing a kind of beginner's laboratory for beginning to cultivate satipatthana. Would that be accumulations, or conditions? I think of accumulations being a latent building up of kusala or akusala tendencies, and conditions referring more to the way our lives play out on the surface because of past khamma becoming vipaka. So in this case would it be conditions that have me living in a small apartment with noisy neighbours that seems to make jhanas out of the question, and accumulations that makes me have dosa easily about the noise, thereby interfering with ability to meditate? And accumulations that make me tend to nod off quickly when I concentrate on the breath? Accumlations that give rise to all my lobha about books and study, and also the lobha for studying daily experience out in the world, and conditions that have brought K Sujin's teaching and Nina's books into my life, with their emphasis on cultivating satipatthana in daily life? Could someone help clarify that for me? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 33865 From: Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, sankhara. Hi Nina, Thanks again for your reply. One thing that bothers me is I don't exactly see the difference between accumulation and concept. A carriage is also an accumulation of parts. How can there be both accumulation and impermanence? Larry 33866 From: Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:46pm Subject: Vism.XIV 82 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why "consciousness" is said' (M.i,292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning. That same [consciousness], though one in its individual essence with the characteristic of cognizing, is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35) --------------------- note 35. 'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result (see Pm.463). 'Unprofitable' in the opposite sense. 'Indeterminate' because not describable as either profitable or unprofitable (see Pm. 464). This is the first of the twenty-two triads in the Abhidhamma Maatikaa (Dhs., p. 1). Pali has five principal words, naama, vi~n~naa.na, mano, citta, and ceto, against the normal English 'consciousness' and 'mind'. While their etymology can be looked up in the dictionary, one or two points need noting here. 'Naama' (rendered by 'mentality' when not used to refer to a name) is almost confined in the sense considered to the expression 'naama-ruupa' ('mentality-materiality') as the fourth member of the dependent origination, where it comprises the three mental aggregates of feeling, perception, and formations, but not that of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na). 'Vi~n~naa.na' (rendered by 'consciousness') is, loosely, more or less a synonym for 'mano' and 'citta'; technically, it is bare cognition considered apart from feeling, perception or formations. 'Mano' (rendered by 'mind'), when used technically, is confined to the sixth internal base for contact (Ch. XV). 'Citta' (rendered by 'mind' and 'consciousness' or '[manner of] consciousness'), when used technically, refers to a momentary type-situation considered as vi~n~naa.na in relation to the tone of its concomitant feeling, perception and formations. Possibly, a better rendering would have been 'cognizance' throughout. It carries a flavour of its etymological relative, 'cetanaa' ('volition'). 'Ceto' (another etymological relative, rendered by 'heart'--i.e. 'seat of the emotions'--, 'will' or 'mind'), when used loosely is very near to 'citta'; but technically it is restricted to one or two such expressions as 'ceto-vimutti' ('mind-deliverance' or 'heart-deliverance'). 33867 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hello Philip, op 13-06-2004 14:46 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > "Therein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, > either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and > ignorance, thus: I have lust, malice, and ignorance -or recognizes the > non-existence of these things" > The monk here uses an explicit name. So we will be explicitly > naming mental states until the end of the path? N: Naming is not in the sutta. This is a case similar to: when he is walking, he knows, I am walking. (But also dogs know). The monk has to know directly the characteristics of lust, malice, ignorance, whatever appears, otherwise he cannot know them as non-self and they can never be eradicated. In Pali it is much clearer, but I have no time now to get the text. He realizes that he has lust, etc. and the word -ti is used at the end, a word standing for quote; this word indicates not only that you think thus and thus, but also that you know thus and thus. In the translation it seems that you are really thinking. Insight is not naming. Naming is thinking. Suppose there is lobha and you start to name it: this is lobha, that lobha has long gone. The present moment is then thinking of the name. But there can be awareness of naming: not you who does, it is conditioned, a nama. But naming can happen too, without making it a rule. When one gets used to the characteristics of hardness or heat there can be awareness of them naturally. No need of naming. Nina. 33868 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma in accordance with dhamma Dear Jon, Thank you. In Pali we meet: dhammanudhamma, and I had forgotten. I save this. anumodana, Nina op 13-06-2004 13:16 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > In the first (SN 22:39), which is in the section on the five aggregates, > the expression "practising in accordance with the Dhamma" is explained in > the commentary as "practising the preliminary portion of the practice that > is in conformity with the ninefold supramundane Dhamma" (these nine being > the four paths, their fruits, and nibbaana). 33869 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:57pm Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas-brief comment Dear Friends, I'm about to start sending B.Bodhi's article (with this title) which he referred to in his letters. As it's long with many footnotes, I'll post it in installments with the hope that these may generate interest and further comments/discussion. For convenience, I'll put the relevant footnotes under each installment instead of leaving them all to the end. I've converted most the confusing symbols (I hope), but a few I'm unable to such as the long dash which should read as ~n~n as in Saama~n~naphala Sutta which appears in the second line. There may well be some I've overlooked too. Metta, Sarah ====== 33870 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:00pm Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Introduction The Paali Nikaayas leave no doubt of the important role the jhaanas play in the structure of the Buddhist path. In such texts as the Saama––aphala Sutta (DN No. 2), the Cuu.lahatthipadopama Sutta (MN No. 27), and many others on the "gradual training" (anupubbasikkhaa) of the Buddhist monk, the Buddha invariably introduces the jhaanas to exemplify the training in concentration. When the bhikkhu has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline, we read, he goes off into solitude and cleanses his mind of the "five hindrances." When his mind has been so cleansed, he enters and dwells in the four jhaanas, described by a stock formula repeated countless times in the Nikaayas: Here, bhikkhus, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhaana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. With the fading away as well of rapture, he dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences happiness with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhaana of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and displeasure, he enters and dwells in the fourth jhaana, which is neither painful nor pleasant and includes the purification of mindfulness by equanimity.[1] In Theravada Buddhist circles during the past few decades a debate has repeatedly erupted over the question whether or not jhaana is necessary to attain the "paths and fruits," that is, the four graded stages of enlightenment. The debate has been sparked off by the rise to prominence of the various systems of insight meditation that have become popular both in Asia and the West, especially among lay Buddhists. Those who advocate such systems of meditation contend that the paths and fruits can be attained by developing insight (vipassanaa) without a foundation of jhaana. This method is called the vehicle of bare insight (suddhavipassanaa), and those who practise in this mode are known as "dry insighters" (sukkha-vipassaka) because their practice of insight has not been "moistened" by prior attainment of the jhaanas. Apparently, this system finds support from the Visuddhimagga and the Paali Commentaries, though it is not given a very prominent place in the commentarial treatment of the path, which usually follows the canonical model in placing the jhaanas before the development of insight.[2] To help answer the question whether the jhaanas are necessary for the attainment of the stages of awakening, we might narrow the question down by asking whether they are needed to reach the first stage of awakening, known as stream-entry (sotaapatti). Since the Nikaayas order the process of awakening into four stages – stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship – it is possible that the jhaanas come to assume an essential role at a later stage in the unfolding of the path, and not at the first stages. Thus it may be that the insight required for the earlier stages does not presuppose prior attainment of the jhaanas, while the jhaanas become indispensable in making the transition from one of the intermediate stages to a more advanced stage. I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikaayas that the jhaanas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner. I will review the texts that corroborate this thesis later in this paper. ****** Notes Abbreviations follow the system recommended in the Critical Paali Dictionary. 1. Vivicc'eva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piitisukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Vitakkavicaaraana.m vuupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m cetaso ekodibhaava.m avitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piitisukha.m dutiya.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Pitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajaano sukha– ca kaayena pa.tisa.mvedeti, yan ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti upekkhako satimaa sukhavihaarii ti tatiya.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Sukhassa ca pahaanaa dukkhassa ca pahaanaa pubb'eva somanassadomanassaana.m atthagamaa adukkham asukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi.m catuttha.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. 2. The vehicle of bare insight is mentioned at Vism XVIII, 5 (PTS ed. 558); the dry insighter at XXI, 112 (666) and XXIII, 18 (702). See too Spk commenting on SN 12:70. 33871 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems accessing Tipitaka Index Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > I haven't been able to access the Tipitaka Index at > www.metta.lk/tipitaka/ for a week or so. Is anyone else able to > access it, or does anyone have any information about what has > happened? .... I've had the same problem and no info. Hopefully it will be back soon. Let us know if you find out anything or if you find it back. Also, escribe has been down for several days, but we've been told it should be back soon. Metta, Sarah ======= 33872 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) for clarification Dear Htoo, Thank you for your clarifications. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: From Buddhists point of view, while in mahasatipatthana there > always is no akusala. If others with different views do good things > as they thought they may or may not be doing good. > > This is the difference between mahasatipatthana and mindfulness. Non- > Buddhists may do good things as they think. But if all dhamma that > arise in them are analysed, they will not be at the same goodness as > staying in mahasatipatthana. Quite a difference. > > Someone may offer 100 billion for someone or some society. If there > is ditthi or wrong view, this offering will not have the same effect > as without ditthi or wrong view. .... All agreed. Thank you for clarifying. .... > Htoo: > > 3 mental actions are > > 1.Abhijja > 2.Byapada > 3.Micchaditthi > > Evil view is not enough for micchaditthi, I think. ... S: I think it’s a translation. Wrong view may be more accurate. .... > > Any akusala javana does have cetana and they do create kamma. This is > kamma paccaya. > > If you say some akusala citta do not have kamma and some have kamma, > it will be very illogical. .... S: All accumulate and condition associated aggregates, but not all are kamma patha bringing results as I understand. It’s a tricky point and we’ve had discussions with RobM on this topic too. In ‘Conditions’ under Kamma-condition, Nina writes: “The cetanaa which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta conditions citta, the other cetasikas and the rupa produced by them by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajaata-kamma-paccaya.’ Later, she writes: “Asynchronous kamma-condition, naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya, pertains to kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa which is able to produce later on results of good or evil deeds committed through body, speech and mind.” Looking at the Pa.t.thaana (PTS transl) it clearly states that all cittas are included in sahajaata kamma paccaya, but only those capable of bringing results are included in naa.nakkha.nika kamma paccaya. I’m looking at a section under ‘Clinging Triplet’ but admit I find it very difficult to follow. U Narada also gives more details in his Guide to Conditional Relations on p.191. .... > If you say as gross things or gross akusala, it may be yes. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Lots of detail on this and on kamma-patha in the A.t.thasaalini, partX .... > Htoo: I think the above disagreement has now agreed. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: > > I thought your comments were suggesting that all lobha cittas are > kamma-patha always. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Cetana always arises any lobha cittas as it does in all other > citta. But cetana in akusala cittas and kusala cittas always gives > rise to kamma. I will check 'patha'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: I think Nina has discussed this further too. Sometimes kamma is used generally, so we can say the cetana accompanying all kusala and akusala is kamma, but it doesn’t mean each of these cetanas can bring a result as I understand. .... > Htoo: Manodvaravajjana citta arises in all form of beings with a few > exceptions such as Asannasatta. Pancadvaravajjana citta arises in > kama sattas. > > Both can arise in arahats. > > But 18 kiriya cittas never arise in non-arahats. They ( 18 kiriya > cittas ) arise only in arahats. But still they do not always arise. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Thank you for clarifying. .... > ... > S: Perhaps it would help to add that ditthi *may* arise with lobha in > the child, rather than does. Again, I appreciate you're trying to > keep it straight-forward. > ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I delibrately left that. Because young arahats are few > exceptions. Actually I refered to under 1 year in the pram, when I > wrote that message. But the word 'the child' may include different > age groups. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: I understand. I think the point is that all lobha (in a child or adult worldling) may or may not be accompanied by ditthi. Again, I appreciate you were just giving an example for the citta under discussion. .... > May you attain special wisdom soon. > > With Unlimited Metta, ... S: Thank you for your good wishes and I look forward to the continuation of the good series on cittas. Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned to Nina about having to surf through all messages. Two suggestions - one is use the subject headings in U.P. to look for particular topics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Another is to ask RobM as he was also collecting the 4 differentiating features of cetasikas, rupas etc and it may be in his slides or notes. Also Nina’s book ‘Cetasikas’ has this info for all or most cetasikas as I recall: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html Let us know if we can help further ====== 33873 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Dhamma Page 38 Dear Htoo, --- Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > The ongoing pages of 'Patthana Dhamma' continue. The page 38 has > appeared on the net. That page contains 'arammana paccaya'. That is > object condition. ... S: I don't read all of these as it's not so convenient as when you post your extracts. However, I did follow this one and it's excellent.I hope you'll post them all in short installments later, rather than just a page no and link. Metta, Sarah ===== > 7 paramattha rupa serves as object for 13 cittas. 7 rupas are causal > dhamma or paccaya dhamma and 13 cittas and their associated dhamma are > resualtant dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma. The relationship between rupa > ( arammana ) and nama ( 10 dvipancavinnana cittas and 3 manodhatu ) is > called arammana and this condition is called object condition or > arammana paccaya. > > Paticcasamuppada does not show such a relationship as in case of > patthana dhamma. Paticcasamuppada dhamma just reveals this is the cause > and this is the effect but it does not show 'how they are related'. > > Page 38 is now online at > http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana38.html > > For the introductory page for the 'Patthana Dhamma' you can go to the > site at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html . > > May you all be free from suffering. 33874 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 )& S-H-Discussions Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I have added the topic '& S-H-Discussions' which > means 'Sarah' 'Htoo' 'Discussions'. ... Good! I’ve just lost some other comments, so I’ll keep them brief this time. ... > Htoo: As you go by I think you need to be careful of the messages > whether they are panatta or paramattha. > > I said 'stay in mahasatipatthana'. > > Let's disect that phrase. > > 'mahasatipatthana' is a word and it is pannatta. The meaning it > carries also has a wide implication. So 'stay in mahasatipatthana' is > totally panatta. After reading this I think you will much more > confuse. ... S: Hmmm .... > > If I said, ' I stay in mahasatipatthana', the whole sentence is > panatta. There is no 'I'. There is no 'mahasatipatthana'. You should > have known what 'stay in mahasatipatthana' and 'develop > mahasatipatthana'. > > When we say juice, we refer to the taste but not the water content. > When I am airing many many panatta, you do not need to see panatta > but you should have to see the essence. > > Whenever such thoughts arise in you, I can sense that you think I was > saying as if I have a control over paramattha dhamma. Example > are 'stay in mahasatipatthana' or 'sitting and trying to develop > mindfulness and concentration' etc etc. ... S: As you say, ‘the more we discuss, the more we find fine points’, that’s all. Apologies for any misunderstanding. .... > S: Can we agree that the theory and practice must be of one accord? > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This is the same statement that appears in different dressing > and style. This has already happen in the first round in the '60 > messages'. I think this will happen even in the third round. Next > question will be 'what is round that Htoo said'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: I’l try not to ask you to go round in any more circles and again apologies for any annoying questions. ... > Htoo: This is quite difficult to explore. NEP only arise at magga > cittupada and phala cittupada. They stay a single moment as > paramattha dhamma. 'he will stay in that state' is conventional > expression. No 'he' and 'no that state' exist. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .. S: Good. ... > Htoo: Be careful when some messages may be in the form of > conventional structure. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Thank you for the reminder. .... > Htoo: I do not have many references. I go along as I see. I only > check when there arise confusing points. I check in the text written > by Venerable Anuruddha called 'Abhidhammatthasangaha'. > > It is a compact text and there are not many details. Details come > from some other references and experiences. .... S: Still it’s an excellent text. Many of us use a translation. Do you use a Burmese or Pali text out of interest? We now have an English translation of it’s commentary which is helpful too. Please don’t let my questions which test your patience deter you from writing and contributing, Htoo. Like Nina, I also appreciated your comments and posts on tadarammana cittas. There is lots more in Sammohavinodanii -- I’d like to quote some, but am behind on several threads. With metta, Sarah ======= 33875 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on Abhidhamma Pitaka Hi RobM & All, --- robmoult wrote: > > > B.Bodhi: >To the other letters trying to argue that the > Abhidhamma as we > > > know it must have been around at the time of the Buddha because > some ideas > > > basic to the Abhidhamma are also found in the suttas, I will only > say that > > > the suttas did serve as the seminal source of the Abhidhamma, and > there > > > may already have been rudimentary Abhidhamma-style analysis > already > > > initiated during the Buddha's own lifetime (though even of that I > am very > > > doubtful if that statement is taken to imply systematic > Abhidhamma). .... R: > Watanabe also states, "It is doubtful whether any Abhidhamma texts > were recited at the time of the Buddha, though we could say that by > comparing the available Abhidhamma texts, a substantial development > took place within the first two centuries after the Buddha's > parinibbana, and in great part before the first Schism (not earlier > than a hundred and thirty seven years after the parinibbana)." ... S: I don’t think anyone is saying that the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka as we know it existed at this time. Without a doubt, the Katthavatthu was recited much later, for example, as predicted by the Buddha. However, if you read this post of mine and follow the links, I think there is plenty of evidence that some of the Abhidhamma was clearly taught during the Buddha’s lifetime and some Abhidhamma texts were rehearsed at the First Council in great detail. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29638 To read the references to the Abhidhamma Pitaka in the Suttanta and Vinaya otherwise and to suggest that modern scholars interpretations are more reliable than those of the ancient highly esteemed commentators and followers of the rehearsers of the early councils (great arahants) is quite perplexing to me, especially amongst those with such confidence in the Pali canon and Theravada tradition. .... > Elsewhere in his book, "Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas > and the Abhidhamma", Watanabe agrees with A. K. Warder (Indian > Buddhism) that the core of the Abhidhamma, the Matikas, date from the > time of the Buddha. .... S: So we all agree on this at least? I don't have Warder's book but would add in 'all the Matikas', including that of the Katthavatthu. To return to B.Bodhi’s note on the Mahaagosinga Sutta, MN32, note 362. He says the word ‘Abhidhamma’ in the sutta ‘cannot refer to the Pi.taka of that name’ and then refers to Prof Watanabe’s comments. The quote in the sutta is the following: "Here friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talks on the Higher Dhamma (Abhidhamma) and they questions each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Saala-tree Wood." As Ken O wrote: >”Then later in the same sutta we see Buddha approve of B. Moggallana. <....> Then there arise these questions, why did the Buddha approved it if it is not of the dhamma, so in that sense it rise doubt whether it is philosophical. Even if Buddha did not teach it as some has said, his mere approval has bear a lot of weight that Abhidhamma originate during the time of Nikayas and not after it. Furthermore , it is the other chief disciple and not Ven Sariputta who said the word on higher dhamma because usually Ven Sariputta is known to be the main proponent of Abhidhamma.”< ***** In different contexts Jim explained the terms may be used a little differently, for example, 'dhamma' often refers to both the Sutta Pitaka & the Abhidhamma Pitaka taken together. 'Abhidhamma' may refer to the supramundane paths and fruits. “'Vinaya' refers to the entire Vinaya Pitaka, but 'abhivinaya' refers to the pacification of the defilements (kilesas) by means of the threefold training.” As Jim also wrote before, “‘Although "abhidhamma" is found in the Tipitaka, it doesn't always necessarily refer to the abhidhammapi.taka so it is wise to check with the commentaries and to study the contect in which it is found. In the Mahaakhandhaka of the Vinayapitaka, for instance, the commentary only interprets "abhidhamma" as "naama-ruupa-pariccheda".” With regard to the commentary on another quote from the Gulissani Sutta , “A forest-dwellign bhikkhu should apply himself to the higher Dhamma (Abhidhamma) and the higher Discipline (Abhivinaya)”, Jim wrote that “'abhidhamma' there pretty much refers to the Abhidhamma-pitaka only.” This is how it translates (skipping the first part): “...only by way of the canonical texts and (their) commentaries on only the Abhidhammapitaka and the Vinayapitaka (respectively) is the ?effort? to be made. (abhidhamme abhivinaye ti abhidhammapi.take c'eva vinayapi.take ca paa.livasena c'eva a.t.thakathaavasena yogo kara.niiyo. -- Ps III 185)” B Bodhi gives a footnote to the same line which says: “MA says that he should apply himself to learning the text and commentary to the Abdhidhamma Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka. This is clearly anachronistic....” and refers the reader to his footnote for the Mahagosinga sutta note referred to above. In short, there will always be doubts about the Abhidhamma and the historical dates, but I think that as wisdom develop so does the confidence that only a Buddha could have taught and realized the truths contained in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, regardless of whether he himself, Sariputta or other great disciples passed on the details. By looking at these details and undestanding more about dhammas arising in daily life we can check whether there is conformity in the teachings and whether the 84,000 units of the teachings, the Ti-pitaka is uniform in meaning as we read about in the commentary to the Vinaya and Abhidhamma. So then there is no need to question the truthfulness of the commentators such as Buddhaghosa or suggest a major conspiracy by the great Theras in Sri Lanka and elsewhere who fully supported and approved of the texts at the time after testing them out so carefully (as you described before in your post on Buddhaghosa). In brief, I think we can fully rely on the detail provided in the ancient commentaries as being the most reliable historical source. The development of pa~n~naa will be the real test, however. Metta, Sarah ======= 33876 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend James, Firstly, I hope you have a great holiday (In Egypt??) and of course I’ll be happy to keep a note of any posts on this thread for you. I’ll be going away myself towards the end of the month for a couple of weeks, so we may have to continue any discussions in a month’s time or so. --- buddhatrue wrote:> Friend Sarah, > > I am having a difficult time following your analysis of these > suttas, even after you have further explained. I am looking for a > straightforward sutta, like the one I presented that discussed > jealousy, which clearly demonstrates that a sotapanna eradicates > jealousy. It appears to me like you are taking parts of different > suttas and combining them to draw a conclusion. Why? .... S: If I want a straight and relatively simple explanation on this point, I just head straight for the Abhidhamma and commentaries;-). So the commentary to the ‘Simile of the Cloth’ or other Abhid refs were very clear to me. However, you wanted sutta detail only, so I tried to oblige, but that was the best I could do without more time or greater familiarity with more suttas. ..... >If jealousy > is eradicated in the sotapanna, I don't see why the Buddha wouldn't > have clearly said so. ... S: In the suttas, a lot of the detail about stages of enlightenment, enlightenment itself etc is kept to a minimum. Those who listened and understood the teachings didn’t need to hear this. As wisdom developed, the wearing away of defilements was apparent and these details could be understood directly I suppose. .... >Allow me to quote another sutta where the > Buddha directly addresses jealousy, what causes it, and how to > eradicate it, MN 101 "At Devadaha": > > 24. "Suppose bhikkhus, a man loved a woman with his mind bound to > her by intense desire and passion. He might see that woman standing > with another man, chatting, joking, and laughing. What do you > think, bhikkhus? Would not sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and > despair arise in that man when he sees that woman standing with > another man, chatting, joking, and laughing?" <...> > James: Here the Buddha explains that jealousy is caused by desire, > craving, and lust. >A sotapanna hasn't eliminated all traces of > desire, craving, and lust; only an arahant has done that. Therefore, > I don't understand how it can be said that a sotapanna has > eradicated jealousy. ... S: I’m not sure the sutta is particularly talking about jealousy as opposed to just aversion and grief. As Nina mentioned, there can be plain dosa (aversion), worry, jealousy, regret...... they have to be gradually worn away. As you say, only an arahant has eradicated the last remnants of attachment, but long before this, attachment to sense pleasures have been eradicated and long before this, courser attachments, such as those with wrong views conditioning jealousy have been eradicated. .... > According to the suttas, many sotapannas were > householders and loved and cared for a spouse. According to the > Buddha in this sutta, where there is romantic love of that nature, > there is going to be jealousy. There is no way around it. .... For worldlings like us it’s true, but without wrong views, the attachments are not so damaging and no conditions for jealousy any more. Gradually the defilements can be understood and worn away. .... > > Also, we seem to be nitpicking over the issue as to if various mind > states can arise at the same time. Sarah, you state that according > to the Abhidhamma they cannot. Personally, I believe that they can > because I don't follow the Abhidhamma model in this regard. I am > more influenced by modern brain research which shows the different > areas of the brain, responsible for different emotions, can be > activated at the same time. .... S: Some mind states arise together and some don’t just like different soup mixes. Just as you can’t add tomatoes to traditional onion soup (I think??), there can’t be jealousy with pleasant feeling or wisdom, for example. However, following the moments of jealousy, there can be wisdom with pleasant feeling which ‘knows’ the jealousy just experienced. Nina explained more on this. ..... >Also, to draw your attention to the > sutta quoted above, the Buddha said that "sorrow, lamentation, pain, > grief, and despair" all arise in the man who is jealous. I believe > that these are different emotional states and the Buddha doesn't say > that they arise one at a time; he says that they all arise at once. ... S: Well, yes, these are all similar mind-states that accompany each other. Unhappiness with unpleasant feeling for example. Good point. I like your soup analogy in the earlier post. Just as you said, cittas only ‘observe’ one object at a time, but they’re accompanied by many helpers, many cetasikas such as the unhappiness , unpleasant feeling and so on. We can continue this discussion in July if you like, maybe working through RobM’s slide notes or anything else which you find appeals. .... > This will have to be my last post on this thread for a while. ... S: Again, have a good trip. I’ll look forward to chatting more later. Metta, Sarah ======= 33877 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:16am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep. and All, Since you asked about me in another post, I'll respond to this one. :-) Rob, I appreciate your giving this matter much consideration and admire your ability to analyze it as much as you have, also that you manage to remain open-minded enough to acknowledge and gain something new . I believe that if you started to more look at the Teachings from the perspective of the present moment, away from any previous tendency to think in terms of situations and `things to do', that you will appreciate more what Nina and others have been saying. It is my own experience that gradually I began to appreciate Nina's writings more and more as I began less and less to think in conventional terms with regard to what the Buddha taught. The habit to confuse conventional reality with ultimate reality is still very much there, however doubt with regard to whether or not any prescribed activity was taught by the Buddha with regard to development of panna decreases increasingly. By this of course I don't mean that the Buddha did not encourage Jhana, including Anapanasati, he obviously saw value in every little kusala and Jhana after all is the highest form of kusala after vipassana. And as for Anapanasati, besides being samatha bhavana can also be the basis for vipassana bhavana. Both samatha and vipassana development require a corresponding level of panna and both can support the other. The former however, does not directly lead to an increase of the latter, only perhaps by helping to gain better conditions, whether in the form of favourable rebirth or as building of character, as in the paramis, (wildly guessing here though :- ( ). The latter on the other hand, increases the possibility that more of the former will be developed, that is when kusala or akusala are objects of satipatthana. So whenever the Buddha talked about jhana and other forms of kusala, he not only encouraged it, but he also directed the audience to seeing it for what it is. Those who were developing jhana and were His disciples, the Buddha taught them about dhammas in terms of that, in which case he described the stages of jhana to them with the idea that they might view the mental factors involved with "insight" and not just practice with the aim of developing higher states of consciousness. Same goes for Anapanasati, and here the breath (as a reality), can be the object of insight, in which case the modern teachings on `breath meditation' is not what the Buddha had in mind. In both these cases, there is no idea of creating conditions for `penetration of realities' whether by using `calm' or by `concentration'. In fact calm and concentration are both to be seen with insight, otherwise not only "wrong" path factors can be mistaken for right, but also jhana on its own does not lead one out of samsara, only vipassana does. The very idea of the Satipatthana Sutta is to show us that "all" realities can be objects of insight. It is obvious that while walking, bending, eating, turning and so on, there is no jhana citta arising, so obviously other ordinary cittas are meant to be known. And surely the Buddha wouldn't direct our attention to `standing', `walking' and `lying down' postures, since these are not realities. These same conventional activities have so far been the very objects around which `self view' revolved and increased, satipatthana is meant to draw one's attention to the paramattha dhammas which lie behind all these normal everyday experiences. This is so that gradually, it will be seen with insight that what we have so far taken for real, is not, and what is, are the dhammas taught in the Abhidhamma. You agree that without knowing in theory what these paramattha dhammas might be, none of us would ever come upon right mindfulness and right view. The best accumulations can only take us to detect more and more subtle akusala of the sense sphere and seek not to be influenced by them. But "wrong view" exists even if one has mastered the Jhanas, unless one has heard and understood the Teachings. Yet even `intellectual' right view does more in terms of drawing us away from samsara, than even the highest jhanas, because even if just a little, it comes with a degree of detachment from any idea of `self' developing. Hence the teaching of Anatta must be applied from the very beginning. One thing I was trying to draw your attention to previously, was that `intellectual understanding' is a level of panna, a reality. Moreover, every moment being either kusala or akusala (excepting the vipaka and bhavanga), it is important that you not be influenced by conventional ideas of meditation, practice or study. You wrote: > I have never understood how the reader and studier of suttas does not > invoke a doer who will achieve enlightenment through gradually coming > to understand the suttas thereby creating conditions for future kusala > results just as much as the meditator does. Sukin proposed that the > difference is that the sutta studier does not expect it to enlighten > him, but only give him intellectual understanding which will then set > the ground for conditions that will lead to enlightenment that the > sutta reader does not attempt to control, and so it does not invoke > the idea of a self who is doing it, but this does not make too much > sense to me. If you are reading a sutta to create any kind of > conditions that will eventually lead to enlightenment, or you are > meditating with the idea that you will create conditions that will > eventually lead to enlightenment, you are doing the exact same thing, > only with a different activity. I don't remember what exactly I wrote, but definitely didn't mean to convey the above impression. When I read, I have no idea that this is something I *must* do. I read as part of my daily activity, and when I do, there arises sometimes kusala cittas, including intellectual understanding, but mostly akusala. When I read for example about the four factors to enlightenment, it makes sense to me, and I believe that a level of correct understanding is involved. And this will condition on it's own without any idea of `having to do', a propensity to listen to and read more dhamma. There is no need to think, `this is what I must do and that the activity will lead me to enlightenment'. Sometimes I read with the intention of `learning', perhaps no different from anyone wishing to learn about anything, and while doing so there is chanda and perhaps this will condition some wise reflection or even a little glimpse of the arising dhamma. This may be an instance of satipatthana and therefore a moment of `practice'. This contrasts with when the understanding is purely intellectual, `pariyatti', but as in the above example, this level of panna is what conditions the patipatti panna. Rob, the fact that you see satipatthana as the `fruit of practice' is because you still haven't really got the hang of clearly differentiating dhammas from conventional activities. You suppose that `formal meditation' leads to satipatthana, but I say, `identify what are the dhammas involved when you meditate'. As I said earlier, there are only dhammas, and these are either kusala or akusala. I have described to you the relationship between the dhammas of `study' and `practice'. Can you identify the relationship between the dhammas of what you call `meditation' and `satipatthana'? I set out to respond to specific points of your post, but unexpectedly a different post has come to be. But I will wait for your response to write more. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 33878 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, correction dear Larry > Thanks for all your research. I think we'll have to meditate on this > one a little more, i.e., sankhara, aka dependent arising, also > impermanence, what does it mean. Relax, Pal! You got here at DSG the best group of Dhamma Students that never strode at the Cayuga Pass on autumn! Nina, Htoo, Sarah, Jon, Sukin and others are true experts on Pali exegesis and the poetry about meditation - where the Chnook blewing on the Northern Canadian Forest is not only a breeze. Are you in distress ? This dress or that dress, you don´t need to care about!!! the same if you feel yourself in distraught about Pali matters! (Narrator): But will Larry be joined in support by people at the Sangha? Or will the same sinister forces that supported Devadatta advances be at work again? Will we find out more in further adventures of Rocky Squirrel and Bullwinkle J. Moose ? Are the Jatakas a secure source of buddhistic doctrine ? Mettaya, Ícaro 33879 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, NUM, Question --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 12-06-2004 13:01 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > > > In our Myanmar daily usage, I think there is a word which is not > > right. We use the word 'Karunadoso'. ........ ...> Your daily life examples (Johnny, etc) are great, inspiring. I can't get > enough of them! > Htoo: P.S: You include lakkhana, rasa, paccuppatthana, and padatthana of > > karuna cetasika in this message. Actually, I want to collect these 4 > > differentiating features of all 52 cetasikas, nibbana, and citta. > N: Nibbana has no proximate cause, it is unconditioned. I think for nibbana > these four features will not apply. > Here are the four: > We read in the Atthasalini, Part II, Ch I, 63 (Expositor, p. 84), Analysis > of terms: > < 1 ...the specific of generic attributes of these, or those states, are > termed the 'characteristic' (lakkhana.m) > 2.Essential property (rasa) means function or achievement. > 3.Recurring phenomenon (paccupa.t.thaana) means mode of manifestation, or > effect. > 4. Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause.> > As to no 2: citta and cetasikas perform functions, they have tasks to do. > As to 4: pada.t.thaana, proximate cause: pada can mean foot or basis, > .t.thaana: place. In the Guide (Netti) it is translated as footing. Thus, it > is an important foundation. > The proximate cause of a dhamma may arise at the same time as that dhamma. > All this will be clearer as we come to each dhamma that has these four > features. It is difficult to speak in a general sense of them. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your kind reply to my questions. I will keep in touch with whenever there is something that is not immediately clear for understanding. With regards, Htoo Naing 33880 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) for clarification Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Below is discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Dear Htoo, Thank you for your clarifications. .... All agreed. Thank you for clarifying. .... Htoo: Thanks. We talked on 'staying in mahasatipatthana'. Now it has been clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >3 mental actions are 1.Abhijja 2.Byapada 3.Micchaditthi > Evil view is not enough for micchaditthi, I think. ... S: I think it's a translation. Wrong view may be more accurate. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. That is why I prefer Pali words. Not Pali language and Pali grammar. If 'micchaditthi' is explained and repeatedly used then it will become an understandable word of imported word as in other cases of English words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Any akusala javana does have cetana and they do create kamma. This is kamma paccaya. >If you say some akusala citta do not have kamma and some have kamma, it will be very illogical. .... S: All accumulate and condition associated aggregates, but not all are kamma patha bringing results as I understand. It's a tricky point and we've had discussions with RobM on this topic too. In `Conditions' under Kamma-condition, Nina writes: "The cetanaa which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta conditions citta, the other cetasikas and the rupa produced by them by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajaata-kamma-paccaya.' Later, she writes: "Asynchronous kamma-condition, naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya, pertains to kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa which is able to produce later on results of good or evil deeds committed through body, speech and mind." Looking at the Pa.t.thaana (PTS transl) it clearly states that all cittas are included in sahajaata kamma paccaya, but only those capable of bringing results are included in naa.nakkha.nika kamma paccaya. I'm looking at a section under `Clinging Triplet' but admit I find it very difficult to follow. U Narada also gives more details in his Guide to Conditional Relations on p.191. .... Htoo: Thanks Sarah for these. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: Cetana always arises any lobha cittas as it does in all other citta. But cetana in akusala cittas and kusala cittas always gives rise to kamma. I will check 'patha'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: I think Nina has discussed this further too. Sometimes kamma is used generally, so we can say the cetana accompanying all kusala and akusala is kamma, but it doesn't mean each of these cetanas can bring a result as I understand. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do understand what you meant. Once I wrote different Kamma at triplegem. I went into some detail. If requested I may search and forward them to DSG. But above paragraph seem denying 'vipaka'. This means that you said 'not all lobha citta give rise to their effect which is vipaka'. I do not prefer your usage there. Nina separately posted a reply to another topic but included 'patha' that I talked to you. Thanks Nina. What I am saying is that if javanas are not arahatta's javana or if they are not kiriya javana, they always have kamma. If lobha, there always is kamma connected with it. At the time of arising this kamma becomes vipaka. If they never give rise to vipaka, then all those kamma that do not reach to the surface are called 'Ahosai Kamma'. Some kamma give rise to patisandhi and other give rise to pavatti or when in a life except patisandhi kala. These include cuti. If not kiriya javana, all lobha citta do have kamma, do create kamma. All those kamma follow each and every citta like wheel-tracks always follow footprints of cows in case of cow-drawn cart travelling on the land. As soon as arahatta magga citta arises, all those kamma that may give rise to patisandhi cittas do not have any power to give rise to patisandhi citta. Remaining kamma will follow like wheel-tracks that follow cow's footprints until cuti citta of arahat after which all kamma that had been generated through out his samsara will become 'ahosi kamma' or ineffectual kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Manodvaravajjana citta arises in all form of beings with a few exceptions such as Asannasatta. Pancadvaravajjana citta arises in kama sattas. >Both can arise in arahats. >But 18 kiriya cittas never arise in non-arahats. They ( 18 kiriya cittas ) arise only in arahats. But still they do not always arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Thank you for clarifying. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: I delibrately left that. Because young arahats are few exceptions. Actually I refered to under 1 year in the pram, when I wrote that message. But the word 'the child' may include different age groups. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: I understand. I think the point is that all lobha (in a child or adult worldling) may or may not be accompanied by ditthi. Again, I appreciate you were just giving an example for the citta under discussion. .... Htoo: Exactly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >May you attain special wisdom soon. >With Unlimited Metta, ... S: Thank you for your good wishes and I look forward to the continuation of the good series on cittas. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They are coming. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: p.s You mentioned to Nina about having to surf through all messages. Two suggestions - one is use the subject headings in U.P. to look for particular topics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Another is to ask RobM as he was also collecting the 4 differentiating features of cetasikas, rupas etc and it may be in his slides or notes. Also Nina's book `Cetasikas' has this info for all or most cetasikas as I recall: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html Let us know if we can help further ====== Htoo: Thanks Sarah. It has been fruitful. Thanks for your suggestions.And I enjoy here. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33881 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Dhamma Page 38 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > --- Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > The ongoing pages of 'Patthana Dhamma' continue. The page 38 has > > appeared on the net. That page contains 'arammana paccaya'. That is > > object condition. > ... > S: I don't read all of these as it's not so convenient as when you post > your extracts. However, I did follow this one and it's excellent.I hope > you'll post them all in short installments later, rather than just a page > no and link. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. I would try to do so. I am just managing time. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33882 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 )& S-H-Discussions Dear Htoo, >I have added the topic '& S-H-Discussions' which > means 'Sarah' 'Htoo' 'Discussions'. ... S:Good! I've just lost some other comments, so I'll keep them brief this time. ... S: As you say, `the more we discuss, the more we find fine points', that's all. Apologies for any misunderstanding. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now we have a clear view on both Dhamma and on what we think of ourselves. I mean there is no more misunderstanding. But do not hesitate to ask if confusing points arise. I will quote again 'the more we discuss, the more we find fine points. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: I'l try not to ask you to go round in any more circles and again apologies for any annoying questions. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's not annoying. But I think clarifying. Otherwise right destination might be far away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: This is quite difficult to explore. NEP only arise at magga cittupada and phala cittupada. They stay a single moment as paramattha dhamma. 'he will stay in that state' is conventional expression. No 'he' and 'no that state' exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .. S: Good. ... >Htoo: Be careful when some messages may be in the form of >conventional senses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Thank you for the reminder. .... >Htoo: I do not have many references. I go along as I see. I only >check when there arise confusing points. I check in the text written >by Venerable Anuruddha called 'Abhidhammatthasangaha'. >It is a compact text and there are not many details. Details come >from some other references and experiences. .... S: Still it's an excellent text. Many of us use a translation. Do you use a Burmese or Pali text out of interest? ...................................................................... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo:It is in Pali. If you want I may post all in Pali piece by piece. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: We now have an English translation of it's commentary which is helpful too. Please don't let my questions which test your patience deter you from writing and contributing, Htoo. Like Nina, I also appreciated your comments and posts on tadarammana cittas. There is lots more in Sammohavinodanii -- I'd like to quote some, but am behind on several threads. With metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your clear communication as you do always. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33883 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Tiika vis 81, sankhara. Hi Larry, op 14-06-2004 02:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: One thing that bothers me is I don't > exactly see the difference between accumulation and concept. A carriage > is also an accumulation of parts. How can there be both accumulation and > impermanence? N: I think from your question that you mean by accumulation rather: agglomeration of diverse dhammas into each of the five khandhas. Or is this not what you mean? The chariot is just a simile, neither less nor more, showing us that there is no doer. When the Teacher classified realities as five khandhas, he wanted to help us to see that there is no doer. As you will see, the next Ch (XV) is on elements. Realities are classified in different ways to help people to see the truth. For some people the khandhas are helpful, for others the elements or the aayatanas. I need them all. We have to keep the goal in mind, no matter what we study: understanding anatta. We studied all the different rupas of rupakkhandha with this purpose: understanding anatta. From head to toe there are rupas originated by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. They are there just for a moment and then they are gone, we do not possess them. What arises from conditions cannot stay, it has to fall away. Intellectually we can understand the impermanence of these rupas, but through insight the truth can be directly understood. We studied eyesense that is conditioned by kamma, and this eyesense is in its turn a condition for seeing. There could not be seeing without eyesense. This is just one example showing us the intricate operation of different conditions. The fact that rupas are classified as one khandha does not make them concepts, they are realities, paramattha dhammas. Thus, when studying rupakkhandha we study all the time realities. You may wonder: is khandha a concept or a reality, but personally, I just pay attention to the realities all taken together as one khandha. The name khandha is a concept, but khandha is made up of realities and that is what matters. As to accumulation, this can also be used in the sense of cetana or kamma that is accumulated. Kusala cetana or akusala cetana motivates deeds through body. speech and mind. It falls away together with the citta, but kamma is accumulated from one citta to the next one in this endless stream of cittas. When there are the right conditions kamma can produce result. Not only kamma is accumulated but also sobhana cetasikas and akusala cetasikas as good and bad inclinations which condition the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas later on. When citta arises it is accompanied by several cetasikas as the case demands. These assist the citta. They fall away together with the citta. Good and bad qualities are not lost, they are accumulated. Does your doubt about concept concern this? Then I shall try to find another way of explanation, there are many ways. By the way, the note to Vis 82 is from the translator, it does not belong to the Tiika. I do not like the word technical for citta, the choice of this word is not very correct. I see nothing technical where it concerns realities. The Tiika is very long but contains passages that are similar to the Expositor about word derivations, and I shall use that. Nina. 33884 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:23am Subject: Brahma viharas 7. Brahma viharas 7 Sympathetic Joy. We read in the ³Atthasåliní ² about sympathetic joy, muditå ((Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) : ³Sympathy has the characteristic of gladness; its property is the absence of envying; its manifestation is the destruction of disaffection (discontentment); its proximate cause is seeing the prosperous state of other beings. Its consummation is the quieting of dislike; its failure is the production of merriment [1].² When we see someone else¹s suffering, compassion can arise, and when we see someone else¹s wellbeing and prosperity, sympathetic joy can arise. When we are jealous about someone else¹s happiness, there is no sympathetic joy at that moment. Jealousy is a cetasika that arises with the citta rooted in aversion, and this is always accompanied by unhappy feeling. The Visuddhimagga explains that the far ennemy of sympathetic joy is aversion and its near ennemy ³joy based on the homelife². This is joy that is based on the sense objects. When we feel very happy about someone else¹s prosperity we should find out whether this is joy that accompanies attachment, such as we usually have to pleasant objects, or whether it is sympathetic joy. As we have seen, the The ³Atthasåliní² (Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 196) uses a simile for the four Brahmavihåras. Mettå is like a small child, compassion is like a child who is sick, sympathetic joy is like a child who is becoming an adolescent and equanimity is like a child who manages his own affairs. As regards sympathetic joy, this is compared to the joy of parents who have a child that is becoming an adolescent and wish for the child to keep on enjoying the good things of adolescence for a long time. When we see the benefit of kusala we shall find out that there are many more opportunities in our daily life than we ever thought for the development of the Brahama viharas. We can rejoice in the praise and honour others receive or in their kusala cittas. Appreciation of someone else¹s kusala is one of the ten meritorious actions, it is a way of dåna or generosity. It is anumodana dåna, generosity of thanksgiving or appreciation. Thus, this is a way of developing the Brahma vihåra of sympathetic joy. We can express our appreciation also in speech and gesture. Acharn Sujin said in ³Wholesome Deeds²: It is so true that we, for the development of kusala, do not have to wait for specific moments. When we consider more the Brahma vihåra of sympathetic joy we can find the opportunities when and where to develop it. When Lodewijk and I are with my father, Lodewijk tells him about the daily news. He has to exert himself speaking in a very loud, clear voice and this is an opportunity for me to rejoice in his kusala cittas. I used to find it tiring and unpleasant to listen to his loud speech, but knowing more about the opportunities for kusala helps me to develop kusala. Lodewijk is not inclined to go to receptions and ceremonies, but when there is an occasion of someone¹s presentation of a new book, he rejoices in his prosperity and will show this by attending the reception. In this way he gives expression to his respect and sympathetic joy. It is the same when someone is offered a doctorate at the university or he receives a medal of honour. When we attend to such ceremonies we can have sympathetic joy about the honour and praise others receive. It is natural that there may also be moments of jealousy or conceit while we think about ourselves and we wonder why we did not receive praise or honour. It is important to know the difference between kusala and akusala and to realize that we have accumulated a great deal of defilements. We can have sympathetic joy not only about the happiness of people who are close to us, but even with regard to strangers. Sympathetic joy can be without limits. Footnote: 1. The Translator of the Atthasåliní has: derision (fun), and the Visuddhimagga has merriment. The meaning is: joy that accompanies attachment. ***** Nina 33885 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:23am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 1. Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 1. Courage The objects of sati and paññå in the development of vipassanå are paramattha dhammas, not concepts. The paramattha dhammas that appear now are the objects of understanding. They are citta, cetasika and rúpa. Acharn Sujin said: ³Dhamma is different from concepts. When we are thinking, what is true in the ultimate sense: the story we think of or the reality that is thinking? We can see the distinction between reality and concept. There is something that can be touched, do you have to give it a name?² Tangible object can be directly experienced through the bodysense and there is no need to name it. Hardness and softness are the characteristics of the Element of Earth or solidity; heat and cold are the characteristics of the Element of Fire or heat; motion or pressure are the characteristics of the Element of Wind or motion. These are rúpa elements, each with their own characteristic that cannot be changed, no matter how one names it. They are dhammas that are devoid of self. Acharn Sujin said: ³Kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and avyåkata dhamma (indeterminate dhamma, neither kusala nor akusala) have to be known now, not by thinking about them. Kusala dhamma is not akusala dhamma. Kusala dhamma has its own characteristic which cannot be changed into akusala dhamma. Both of them are citta and cetasika.² Citta, cetasika and rúpa are realities, not concepts. They are not abstract ideas, they occur now in our life. What is kusala dhamma is always kusala, that is its characteristic, it cannot be changed into akusala. This is a way to know what paramattha dhamma is: it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed into something else, no matter how we name it. There are many shades and varieties of kusala, depending on the accompanying cetasikas, but nevertheless kusala is kusala. Each kusala citta is accompanied by non-attachment and non-aversion, and it may be accompanied by paññå, understanding. The Abhidhamma teaches clearly that there cannot be any selfishness at the same time as kusala citta. There are different kinds of kusala: generosity consisting in giving useful things to others. But generosity is also appreciation of the kusala citta of others. At such a moment one has non-attachment, non-aversion, and one is without jealousy. At the moment of kusala citta there is peace, freedom from akusala. Wholesome conduct through body and speech, for example in helping others or paying respect to those who deserve it, is kusala síla. Mental development, comprising the study and explanation of the Dhamma, the development of samatha and vipassanå, is another form of kusala. We can learn the characteristic of kusala when it appears, we can learn that it is different from akusala dhamma. ***** Nina 33886 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naming no 2, with Pali. Hello Philip, op 13-06-2004 14:46 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. V, > 152) : "Therein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, > either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and > ignorance, thus: I have lust, malice, and ignorance -or recognizes the > non-existence of these things" Pali: this knows no indirect speech, but it places the suffix -ti after the quote. Recognizes stands for the Pali: pajaanaati: come to know, know, understand, distinguish. It is also used in connection with yaata bhuuta: to know things as they really are. Thus, here: He understands, " there is for me inwardly lobha, dosa and moha." More about pajaanaati: ~naa.na is also from jaanaati, and pa~n~naa has the same stem: pa-j~naa (Sskr: praj~naa). jaanaati: gnosis, nosco. Together with passati: to see. jhaana is a different stem. from Jhaayati: contermplate (three characteristics) or meditate (in samatha), or to burn (defilements), but that is another stem. Nina. 33887 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:16am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > >Rob: We can see from this Sutta that naming plays a pivotal role. > >A baby > >does not have the memories required to name and therefore their > >reaction to the environment is very direct and "to the moment". > > Phil: Isn't that our goal? We aspire to have direct and to the > moment experience of paramattha dhammas. So if we are to have > direct experience of paramattha dhammas, I would have thought that > would mean shedding the names. As soon as there is a name, isn't > there thinking, and no longer the direct reality? In my previous e- > mail, I mentioned having read from people who became keen on > Abhidhamma that after an intial first few years of eagerly > identifying things by name ("There was lobha" for example, > they found themselves experiencing lobha without using the word > lobha. I guess it was still being named in the sense of clearly > identified, but not named in the sense of putting a word to it. Do > you know what I'm getting at? I'm puzzled by this "named." Do we > keep thinking "there is lobha" etc even as our understanding > increases, or do we just directly understand lobha without needing to > label it"lobha?" > Maybe I'm confusing conventional meaning of "named" with "named" > in the citta processes. Does named mean given a name, in > Pali or English, or does named mean identified by cittas in a way > that is clear for the process but is unknown by our conscious mind? > Do the words come to the mind later, with the further mental > proliferation, the thinking? I'm a bit sleepy. I hope the above makes > at least a little bit of sense. > > Later - I return to the above lengthy babble that I wrote when I > was sleepy last night, having found this sutta passage in ADL (171) > quoting Kindred Sayings (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. V, > 152) : "Therein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, > either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and > ignorance, thus: I have lust, malice, and ignorance -or recognizes the > non-existence of these things" > The monk here uses an explicit name. So we will be explicitly > naming mental states until the end of the path? ===== If you examine the Nikayas, you will note that they are not presented in chronological order. They are presented in the order that they were recited at the first great council, shortly after the Buddha's parinibbana. The opening Sutta in the Digha Nikaya (the first Nikaya) was the Brahmajala Sutta, the All-Embracing Net of Views. This Sutta lays out 62 forms of wrong-view to enable one to test whether a view is in alignment with the Dhamma. It is like the guardian of the Nikayas. The first Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya (the second Nikaya) is the Mulapariyaya Sutta, the Root of Existence. This Sutta explains how the mind works, right down to the roots, of an uninstructed worldling (that's us), a "learner" (Sotapanna, Sakadagami or Anagami), an Arahant and the Buddha. So if you want to understand how the workings of your mind differ from that of a Sotapanna, from that of an Arahant and from that of a Buddha, you can read this Sutta. Before you get too excited, let me warn you that the Sutta is almost unintelligible without the commentary (and even with the commentary, it is really difficult to follow). If you think that the Abhidhamma is tough, theoretical and abstract, don't try the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta! :-) Fortunately, I have a book on this Sutta written by Bhikkhu Bodhi that covers the commentary and subcommentary. Let me summarize for you (I don't claim to understand it fully): The uninstructed worldling perceives X as X (where X = earth, water, fire, etc.). The Sotapanna, Arahant and Buddha directly know X. One might think that perceiving X as X is a good thing, but the commentary explains that the Sutta means that uninstructed worldling is subject to perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) whereas the Sotapanna, etc. are not. As an anlogy, perversion of perception is what happens when a man sees a coil of rope in the dark and momentarily perceives it as a snake. In an uninstructed worldling, this perversion of perception is the foundation of a perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa). This is what happens when the man reflects on what he has seen and thinks that what he has seen is a snake. Perversion of thought is the foundation for perversion of view (ditti-vipallasa), the most serious type of perversion. This is what happens when the man is convinced that what he has seen is a snake. See the Vipallasa Sutta (AN IV.49) and its commentary for more details. According to Vism XXII 68, the Sotapanna has uprooted perversions of perception that "the impermanent is permanent" and "what is non-self is a self". For the uninstructed worldling: - anicca (impermanence) is concealed by continuity. In reality, a series of mental states arise to experience an object; each mental state arises to perform a certain function and disappears conditioning the next mental state to arise and continue the task. The uninstruced worlding does not see this. - anatta (non-self) is concealed by the perception of "whole". We see things or phenomena as connected whole, compact and solid, when actually they are made up of different parts with specific functions. Back to the Mulapariya Sutta... Because the unistructed worldling is subject to perversion of perception, their conceptual response is all messed up. To quote the Sutta, "Having perceived earth as earth, he conceives himself as earth, he conceives himself in earth, he conceives himself apart from earth, he conceives 'earth is mine', he delights in earth. What is the reason? Because it has not been fully understood by him, I declare." In other words, at the stage of the conceptual response, a variety of wrong views take over leading the uninstructed worldling to delight in X because he has not fully understood X. The commentary explains that "fully understanding" involves three stages: - understanding of the known (nataparinna): namas and rupas as namas and rupas - understanding of scrutinization (tiranaparinna): three characterisitics of namas and rupas; anicca, dukkha, anatta - understanding of abandoning (pahanaparinna): desire and lust for sense objects (kamachanda and kamaraga) are eliminated According to the Sutta, the Sotapanna may or may not be subject to messed up conceiving. The Sutta encourages the Sotapanna not to conceive improperly so that he may fully understand the object and not delight in the object. Of course, an Arahant and the Buddha conceive properly and do not delight in the object because they have fully understood the object. The difference between an Arahant and the Buddha is that an Arahant has fully understood because he is devoid of lobha, dosa and moha whereas the Buddha has fully understood because He understands "x to the end" and also understands dependent origination. This ends the discussion of the Mulapariya Sutta, but where does naming fit in? Naming arises as part of primary cognition, before the response of "perceiving X as X" in an uninstructed worldling. Ariyans and uninstructed worldlings experience concepts and names differently. Uninstructed worldlings take concepts and names for things that are real. The ariyans know that realities are impermanent, while concepts do not have the characteristic of impermanence. Concepts and names are not realities but they are the means to make things known. Ariyans see concepts and names as they truly are, with wise attention (yoniso manasikara). The Buddha certainly had concepts and names as objects. The mental states of all beings which arise in daily life sometimes have a reality as object and sometimes have a concept or name as object. If we did not know concepts or names (table, plate, etc.) how could we lead our daily life? Animals must also have concepts as objects, otherwise they could not stay alive. They must know what is food and what is not food. In summary, to answer your question, you will be naming right to the end of the path. Even the Buddha named things; without naming, one cannot function. However, once you reach the stage of Sotapanna, you won't be fooled by these names. As Nina has pointed out, naming mental states is an intellectual exercise. What the Buddha encouraged was to be aware of mental states as they arise (mindfulness). Metta, Rob M :-) 33888 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:41am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Rob Moult > As Nina has pointed out, naming mental states is an intellectual > exercise. What the Buddha encouraged was to be aware of mental >states > as they arise (mindfulness). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Even an intellectual exercise like reading the Visuddhimagga, or the Abhidhamma's books and their tiikas, the Nikayas, etc, can give you a sound and strong mind stuff. Mental discipline to acquire knowledge is always headlong to mindfullness: one becomes able to gather spiritual honey even from the more unpromising flowers! There are also many practical aspects on these matters. Many Bhikkhus suggest that the Abhidhamma is the true vipassana indeed: it's a wink to the practitioner of meditation that watches carefully his own breath even (and mainly) at readings!!! best regards Mettaya, Ícaro 33889 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: Accumulations/ conditions ( was Tolerant spirit of dsg) Hi all I thought I'd clarify this question, because it seems to be in the area of the debate about the necessity for jhanas, but that wasn't my intention. I'm really curious about the difference - if there is any- between the terms "accumulations" and "conditions." Out of interest, I googled the two words and came up with this from what is identified as a sample chapter from Nina's Cetasikas at zolg. "Whether akusala citta or kusala citta arises, depends on ones accumulations. There can be wise attention or unwise attention to the object, depending on conditions. When there is wise attention to the object we see the value of kusala and we have confidence in kusala. However, more often akusala citta arises and then there is unwise attention to the object. It is possible to change our habits and develop kusala. Gradually our accumulations can be changed through the study of the Dhamma and the development of right understanding." It would appear from this that "conditions" and "accumulations" might be synoyms. Is that the case? Thanks. Metta, Phil P.s Oh, in passing, many thanks to Rob and Nina for your feedback on my questions about "naming." I am away for a few days so won't be able to respond yet. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Betty, and all. > > I appreciated you gentle, sensible consideration of the topic of > meditation/scholarship, Betty - as I did all the other posts in this > thread. Your post brought up another question for me. > > >Betty: When we "look down" at others and their methods, > >whether "favoring" the meditative path (because of accumulations), > >or tending towards the scholars' path (because of accumulations), we > >only harm ourselves, as it was so beautifully stated in the sutta. > > Phil: I am confused about the difference betwen "conditions" > and "accumulations." > > For example, with respect to meditation, it is quite clear to me > that I will not have the opportunity to develop jhanas in this > lifetime, unless there is an unexpected change. I live in a small > apartment with my wife and noisy neighbours and a tendency to get > sleepy when I meditate. Meditation retreats are not an option becase > I work on weekends and in any case I live in Japan where a different > kind of meditation is practiced. It doesn't seem jhanas will be a > part of my life, though I knew things could change. For now, > meditation is simply a way of developing calm at times, and providing > a kind of beginner's laboratory for beginning to cultivate > satipatthana. > > Would that be accumulations, or conditions? I think of > accumulations being a latent building up of kusala or akusala > tendencies, and conditions referring more to the way our lives play > out on the surface because of past khamma becoming vipaka. > > So in this case would it be conditions that have me living in a > small apartment with noisy neighbours that seems to make jhanas out > of the question, and accumulations that makes me have dosa easily > about the noise, thereby interfering with ability to meditate? And > accumulations that make me tend to nod off quickly when I concentrate > on the breath? Accumlations that give rise to all my lobha about > books and study, and also the lobha for studying daily experience out > in the world, and conditions that have brought K Sujin's teaching and > Nina's books into my life, with their emphasis on cultivating > satipatthana in daily life? > > Could someone help clarify that for me? Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 33890 From: Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations/ conditions ( was Tolerant spirit of dsg) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/14/04 6:59:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hi all > > I thought I'd clarify this question, because it seems to be in the > area of the debate about the necessity for jhanas, but that wasn't my > intention. I'm really curious about the difference - if there is any- > between the terms "accumulations" and "conditions." > > Out of interest, I googled the two words and came up with this from > what is identified as a sample chapter from Nina's Cetasikas at zolg. > > "Whether akusala citta or kusala citta arises, depends on ones > accumulations. There can be wise attention or unwise attention to the > object, depending on conditions. When there is wise attention to the > object we see the value of kusala and we have confidence in kusala. > However, more often akusala citta arises and then there is unwise > attention to the object. It is possible to change our habits and > develop kusala. Gradually our accumulations can be changed through > the study of the Dhamma and the development of right understanding." > > It would appear from this that "conditions" and "accumulations" > might be synoyms. Is that the case? Thanks. > > > Metta, > Phil > > P.s Oh, in passing, many thanks to Rob and Nina for your feedback > on my questions about "naming." I am away for a few days so won't be > able to respond yet. > > ======================== While I don't recall having seen an "official" or even authoritative definition of 'accumulations', the sense that I have gleaned of the term is that of "well etched habits, patterns of behavior, interests, and inclinations or tendencies formed by repetitive volitional actions." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33891 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: Accumulations/ conditions ( was Tolerant spirit of dsg) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > I thought I'd clarify this question, because it seems to be in the > area of the debate about the necessity for jhanas, but that wasn't my > intention. I'm really curious about the difference - if there is any- > between the terms "accumulations" and "conditions." > > Out of interest, I googled the two words and came up with this from > what is identified as a sample chapter from Nina's Cetasikas at zolg. > > "Whether akusala citta or kusala citta arises, depends on ones > accumulations. There can be wise attention or unwise attention to the > object, depending on conditions. When there is wise attention to the > object we see the value of kusala and we have confidence in kusala. > However, more often akusala citta arises and then there is unwise > attention to the object. It is possible to change our habits and > develop kusala. Gradually our accumulations can be changed through > the study of the Dhamma and the development of right understanding." > > It would appear from this that "conditions" and "accumulations" > might be synoyms. Is that the case? Thanks. Every thought, word or deed creates kamma - a seed that may ripen into a resultant (vipaka) mental state in the future. Every thought, word or deed also develops accumulations (ayuhana). When the thought, word or deed is unwholesome, the accumulation is called a latent disposition (anusaya), defilements which "lie along with" (anusenti) the mental process to which they belong, rising to the surface as obsessions whenever they meet suitable conditions. Condition (paccaya) is a very general term meaning anything that can support the arising of something else. All sorts of things function as conditions; the falling away of one citta is a condition for the arising of the next citta, an object is a condition for the arising of a citta, the meeting of eye-sensitivity, visible object and eye- consciousness is a condition for contact, accumulations can be a condition for the arising of a citta and cetasikas. In brief, accumulations are one kind of condition. As mentioned above, the arising of accumulation also depends on other conditions; there is never a single condition at work, there are always a multiplicity of conditions. The seventh book of the Abhidhamma (Patthana) is dedicated to the explanation of conditions; the 24 ways in which one thing can support another. This is the most complex part of the Abhidhamma. It is said that when the Buddha sat down to contemplate on the Abhidhamma in the fifth week after His enlightenment, that when he came to contemplate on conditions He started to emit rays of six colours because he had finally found a subject worthy of His intellect. Metta, Rob M :-) 33892 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Sarah, I would add: Puggala Pa~n~natti, Human types, of the Abhidhamma Pitaka which is very clear on dry insight. but this may not be acceptable to those who have no confidence in the Abhidhamma or in those parts of the suttanta which are not the four Nikayas? op 14-06-2004 08:00 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > The vehicle of bare insight is mentioned at Vism XVIII, 5 (PTS ed. > 558); the dry insighter at XXI, 112 (666) and XXIII, 18 (702). See too Spk > commenting on SN 12:70. 33894 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:06pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Dhamma friends > In Theravada Buddhist circles during the past few decades a debate has > repeatedly erupted over the question whether or not jhaana is > necessary to attain the "paths and fruits," that is, the four graded stages of > enlightenment. The debate has been sparked off by the rise to prominenceof the various systems of insight meditation that have > become popular The debate Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi mentioned is partly showed in a book named 'Satipatthana Vipasana: Criticism and Replies' published by Buddhasasananuggaha Organization in Yangon. In this book, the Burmese Nyanuttara Sayadaw, a kammatthanacariya of Mahasi meditation center, also the chief compiler of the extant largest Pali dictionary, 60-volume Tipitaka Pali-Burmese Dictioanry, is arguing with the Sinhalese Kheminda Thera who insists that jhana is inevitable for attainment of ariya maggas and phalas. Actually, the debate was firstly aroused by Soma Thera and Kassapa Thera in 1957. They criticized Mahasi Sayadaw's methods for teaching meditators vipassana directly without previously attaining jhana. That book (and other Mahasi Sayadaw's books) can be download in the official Mahasi website (http://www.mahasi.com/). There are also some well-known Western Pali Scholars who suggest that as far as the Pali Canon is concerned, jhana is not optional, such as L.S. Cousins and Rupert Gethin, respectively the former and incumbent president of Pali Text Society in UK. For me, the question whether we can find evidence in Nikayas or the Pali Canon for this sukkhavipassaka idea seems to be a matter of interpretation. Nyanaponika Thera, Nyanuttara Sayadaw, Gunaratana Thera had given some suttas as evidence for this. However, people who have different opinions still could interpret them in a different way. However, It is interesting to note that in Burma, where the study of Abhidhamma is acknowledgely the most established, where we can find Tipitakadhajas and more meditation centers than in other Buddhist countries, it is well accepted that jhana is not absolutely necessary for attaining Arahantship. May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. 33895 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:19pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Sarah and other Dhamma friends After Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi replied to my question, I email him another question regarding the following passages, to which I have not received his reply for now. > That is the picture that emerges from the suttas. As to your proposal, > that an arahant who lacks the eight vimokkhas might be the dry insight > arahant, I don't think that will work. I believe that here we do > have to > go along with the commentary (already anticipated by the Puggala- > pannatti)and recognize that what is meant is an arahant who does > not achieve the > four arupa-samaapattis. Otherwise it would mean that any arahant who > attains any of the eight vimokkhas would be ubhatobhaagavimutta. > Or else > it would be difficult to see where the arahants who attain the four > jhanas, but not the arupas, fit into this picture. It is > preferable to see > the pannavimutta arahants as attainers of the four jhanas but not the > arupa-samapattis (according to the sutta scheme) and to see the > dry-insight arahants of the commentarial system as fitting into this > category - but also to see them as a commentarial innovation not > found in > the suttas. (Which does not mean there is no such thing!) > > My question is as follows, In A 4 87, it is said that a saman.apun.d.ariiko is an arahant who lacks eight vimokkhas. Here, the Pali passage ¡¥no ca kho at.t.ha vimokkhe kaayena phusitvaa viharati¡¦ is understood by the commentator as ¡¥having none of the eight vimokkhas¡¦, since he regards this samanapundarika as a ¡¥sukkhavipassaka arahat¡¦. So this Pali passage in fact, according to commentaries, allows two different interpretations. The other one is, as you have men tioned, showed in Pugg-a. Even if we don't follow the commentators' reading, from the logic of language, the Pali passage itself means 'one does not have (all) the eight vimokkhas', which allows the interpretations that 'one has some or none of them'. Doesn't it? Any comment is much appreciated. metta Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. 33896 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Hi Tzung-Kuen, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends > > > In Theravada Buddhist circles during the past few decades a debate has > > repeatedly erupted over the question whether or not jhaana is > > necessary to attain the "paths and fruits," that is, the four graded stages of > > enlightenment. The debate has been sparked off by the rise to prominenceof the various systems of insight meditation that have > > become popular > > The debate Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi mentioned is partly showed in a book named 'Satipatthana Vipasana: Criticism and Replies' published by Buddhasasananuggaha Organization in Yangon. In this book, the Burmese Nyanuttara Sayadaw, a kammatthanacariya of Mahasi meditation center, also the chief compiler of the extant largest Pali dictionary, 60-volume Tipitaka Pali-Burmese Dictioanry, is arguing with the Sinhalese Kheminda Thera who insists that > jhana is inevitable for attainment of ariya maggas and phalas. Actually, the debate was firstly aroused by Soma Thera and Kassapa Thera in 1957. They criticized Mahasi Sayadaw's methods for teaching meditators vipassana directly without previously attaining jhana. That book (and other Mahasi Sayadaw's books) can be download in the official Mahasi website (http://www.mahasi.com/). A few weeks ago, I happend to pull 'Satipatthana Vipasana: Criticism and Replies' from my bookshelf where it had been collecting dust for some time. I started reading it and after about fifteen minutes, I felt a sense of deep disappointment. I felt that the tone of the writing was overly combative from both sides. I have a sense that monks, especially senior and respected monks, should not resort to "intellectual mudslinging" (perhaps calling it "intellectual mudslinging" is an exageration, but that was the impression that I was left with). I was reminded of the writings of Nanavira Thera, which I find to be very negative. Maybe I am naive, but I expect monks to be positive. I have no problem with a monk criticizing, but I feel that it should be done with compassion. Metta, Rob M :-) 33897 From: Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Fw: [dsg] accumulations/conditions (was: tolerant spirit of dsg) Woops, so sorry everyone. Please forgive me for not deleting the rest of the digest. Sorry for the inconvenience, Betty ________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations/conditions (was: tolerant spirit of dsg) > Dear Phil, > Sorry for my delay in replying to your excellent question, re: the > differences between conditions and accumulations. Your description quoted > below tells me that you understand the differences, but perhaps need more > clarification. > > Conditions are causes for the rising and falling away of nama and rupa, > i.e., what comprises the 5 khandas. Kamma, action, is one of those 24 > conditions, called paccaya in Pali. They are laid out in the Patthana, the > last book of the 7 in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (sorry, can't get my Pali > markings to work on Outlook Express), but if you have access to > Nayanatiloka's detailed Buddhist Dictionary, and Nina's wonderful book > entitled Conditions you will get the best pariyatti understanding of what > conditions are. On the conventional level, what is perceived through the > senses as our surroundings, things, beings, are all conditioned by past > kamma actions. So, they are vipaka condition, the result of past actions. > Yes, vipaka is a condition too in the sense that the result happens. Thus, > what you perceive on the conventional level as your hectic surroundings are > the result of conditions, as you said below. > > Accumulations, on the other hand, called ayuhana in Pali and satsom in Thai, > are the tendencies, proclivities that are "stored" (sorry for lack of a > better term) in each citta when it arises, falls away and conditions the > next one to arise. Accumulations are also a kind of "storehouse" (again, > can't find a better term) of past kammic actions from which new kammic > actions are conditioned during the javana part of a sense door process. The > more accumulations for certain tendencies, the more chances there are for > such tendencies to "come out" in the form of action or thought. That is why, > for instance, some people have accumulations for meditating and others have > accumulations for study and contemplation, or for both. The accumulations > themselves are dormant, but through conditions accumulations "come out" as > kammic action. So, the difference basically is that accumulations lie > dormant in the cittas, but conditions cause nama and rupa to arise and fall > away, actions and results to occur. > > That is the way I understand it (pariyatti) and hope it answers your > question, but welcome clarification, especially from Nina, should any be > needed. > > However, through the study of Abhidhamma we can begin to understand the > reality of just what makes up those hectic surroundings in which we all live > at the conventional level. We all "think" we can't do this or that (see > hindrances, nivarana), or can do this or that because we are doing it with > ignorance, with the idea of a self, a being, that is doing things. But, > Dhamma teaches us that in reality there are only the phenomena of the 5 > khandas rising and falling away all the time because of conditions; there're > no Phil no Betty, no noisy kids, neighbors, etc. So, the more we read, > listen, contemplate on the Dhamma the more conditions are being developed > for increasing understanding of this to arise. That means that the > conventional environment around us gradually becomes less and less of a > factor influencing "us" (there is no "us"), the more that understanding > arises. Gradually, we come to see the conventional environment for what it > is and gradually "we" can let go of the attachment "we" have for it in the > form of irritation (dosa) or liking (lobha). But, and this is a big but, > patience is required. Understanding does not arise when "we" would like it > to; it arises because the conditions are right for it to do so. > > So, whatever your environment, continue to study, contemplate, or even > meditate (if you fall asleep doing it, it may be the conditions are not > right for it, so stop for a while. But, please note, "who" is doing the > meditating?), when the conditions are right for those actions to occur; just > take it as it comes, with patience and acceptance. > > metta, > Betty > > ". . . .Would that be accumulations, or conditions? I think of > accumulations being a latent building up of kusala or akusala > tendencies, and conditions referring more to the way our lives play > out on the surface because of past khamma becoming vipaka. > > So in this case would it be conditions that have me living in a > small apartment with noisy neighbours that seems to make jhanas out > of the question, and accumulations that makes me have dosa easily > about the noise, thereby interfering with ability to meditate? And > accumulations that make me tend to nod off quickly when I concentrate > on the breath? Accumlations that give rise to all my lobha about > books and study, and also the lobha for studying daily experience out > in the world, and conditions that have brought K Sujin's teaching and > Nina's books into my life, with their emphasis on cultivating > satipatthana in daily life? > > Could someone help clarify that for me? Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil. . . ." 33898 From: sarahdhhk Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 0:52am Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (2) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Introduction contd Recently, however, several articulate teachers of meditation have argued down the validity of the dry insight approach, insisting that the jhaanas are necessary for the successful development of insight at every stage. Their arguments usually begin by making a distinction between the standpoints of the Paali Canon and the Commentaries. On this basis, they maintain that from the perspective of the Canon jhaana is needed to attain even stream-entry. The Nikaayas themselves do not address this problem in clear and unambiguous terms, and it is difficult to derive from them any direct pronouncement on its resolution. In the suttas dealing with the gradual training, all the stages of awakening are telescoped into one series, and thus no differentiation is made between the preparatory attainments required for stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship. We simply see the monk go off into solitude, attain the four jhaanas, and then proceed directly to arahantship, called "the knowledge of the destruction of the taints." From such texts, there can be no denying the role of the jhaanas in bringing the path to fulfilment, but here I shall be concerned principally with the question whether or not they are categorically necessary to win the first fruit of the path. In pursuing this question I intend to pick up an important but generally neglected clue the suttas lay at our doorstep. This is the fact that many of the Buddha's followers who attained the first three stages of awakening, from stream-entry through non-returning, were lay people. The only stage that the Canon depicts as the near-exclusive domain of monks and nuns is arahantship.[3] This clue is more important than might appear at first glance, for a close examination of texts describing the personal qualities and lifestyles of noble lay disciples might bring to light just the material we need to unravel the knots tied into this perplexing issue. A study of the Nikaayas as a whole would show that they depict classes of disciples in terms of paradigms or archetypes. These paradigms are generally constructed with extreme rigor and consistency, indicating that they are evidently governed by a precisely determined scheme. Yet, somewhat strangely, it is rare for the outlines of this scheme to be spelled out in the abstract. This puts the burden on us to elicit from the relevant suttas the underlying principles that govern the portrayal of types. The texts with which we are concerned delineate disciples at different levels of development by way of clusters of specific qualities and practices. These texts function both descriptively and prescriptively. They show us what kinds of qualities we can normally expect of disciples at particular stages of progress, and thereby they imply (and sometimes state) what kinds of practices an aspirant at a lower stage should take up to advance further along the path. To draw upon suttas dealing with lay disciples is to approach the question of the need for jhaana from an angle somewhat different from the one usually adopted. Most participants in this discussion have focused on texts dealing principally with monastic practice. The drawback to this approach, as indicated above, lies in the predilection of the Nikaayas to compress the successive levels of monastic attainment into a single comprehensive scheme without showing how the various levels of practice are to be correlated with the successive stages of attainment.[4] So instead of working with these monastic texts, I intend to turn my spotlight on the unordained segment of the Buddhist community and look at suttas that discuss the spiritual practices and qualities of the lay noble disciple. For if the jhaanas are truly necessary to attain stream-entry, then they should be just as much integral to the practice of the lay follower as they are to the practice of the monk, and thus we should find texts that regularly ascribe jhaanic practice and attainment to lay disciples just as we find them in the case of monks. If, on the other hand, the texts consistently describe the practices and qualities of certain types of noble lay disciples in ways that pass over or exclude the jhaanas, then we have strong grounds for concluding that the jhaanas are not prerequisites for attaining discipleship at these levels. I will frame my study around three specific questions: (1) Do the texts indicate that a worldling must attain jhaana before entering upon the "fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyaama), the irreversible path to stream-entry? (2) Do the texts typically ascribe the jhaanas to lay disciples who have attained stream-entry? (3) If the texts do not normally attribute the jhaanas to the stream-enterer, is there any stage in the maturation of the path where their attainment becomes essential? ****** Notes 3. For example, at DN II 92 the Buddha testifies that numerous lay disciples who had died had reached the first three stages, and at MN I 490–91 he declares that he has "many more than five hundred" lay disciples who have become non-returners. The question of lay arahantship is a vexed one. While the texts record several cases of lay people who attained arahantship, immediately afterwards they either take ordination or expire. This is the basis for the traditional belief that if a lay person attains arahantship, he or she either enters the Sangha that very day or passes away. 4. One such text which does make the correlations, in a monastic context, is AN 3:85/I 231–32, which I will discuss below (see pp.??). 33899 From: sarahdhhk Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:29am Subject: Azita - running around khandhas (was: Brahma viharas, no 2) Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > When we were in Burma, I asked A. Sujin a question about the > Khandhas, wanting to know why Vedana and Sanna were each a khanda > apart from the Sankhara khanda, you may/may not remember the time, > but since then I have observed how much they each 'influence' how I > behave, think, react in a day. .... S: Of course I recall how we all missed the sunset over the Irrawaddy in Pagan as we intently discussed khandhas instead:-) I seem to recall posting more on the topic on return. Anyway, I hope you enjoy these quotes on the khandhas from the Sammohavinodani transl (PTS), Classification of the Aggregates: 130 "Of these, firstly "order of arising" is not appropriate here because the aggregrates do not arise in the order of their successive determining as in the case of "the foetus in the first stage", etc; nor "order of abandoning" because the profitable and indeterminate are not to be abandoned; nor "order of practice" because unprofitable [things] are not to be practised; nor "order of plane" because feling, etc are included in all four planes. But "order of teaching" is appropriate. For there are those people who, while teachable, have fallen to assuming a self among the five aggregrates through these not having been divided up; and the Blessed One is desirous of releasing them from assumption of a self by getting them to see how the compact mass is resolved; and being desirous of their welfare, first, for the purpose of their easy grasping, he taught the gross materiality aggregrate which is the object of the eye and so on; and after that the feeling which feels the materiality experienced as desirable and undesirable; [then] the perception which grasps the aspects of the object of feeling thus: "What he feels, that he perceives" (M i 293); [then] formations which form by means of perception; [and lastly] consciousness which is their support and which dominates them." ***** S:Here's another apt quote for someone who works in a hospital like you: 140 "As to simile". Here the materiality aggregate (as object) of clinging is like a sickroom (gilaanasaala) because it is the dwelling place, as the physical basis, door and object, for the sick man, [namely,] the consciousness aggregate of clinging. The feeling aggregate of clinging is like the sickness becasuse it afflicts. The perception aggregate of clinging is like the provocation of the sickness because of the presence (sabhaava) of feeling associated with greed, etc being due to perception of sense desires, etc. The formations aggregate of clinging is like having recourse to what is unsuitable because it is that which gives rise to feeling which is the sickness." ***** A: > Just hearing a piece of music, can conjure up memories of a > past event, and leave one feeling happy/sad etc. Sometimes, a > thought or an image will appear and I know its from somewhere in my > past, and I can at that moment remind myself that that is Sanna just > doin' its job!!! ..... S: That's right! Good reminders. 150 "Perception also is like a mirage in the sense of being unsubstantial, [and] likewise in the sense of being ungraspable. For one cannot grasp it and drink it or wash in it or bathe in it or fill a pot with it. Furthermore, just as a mirage quivers and seems like the movement of waves, so indeed perception also, divided up as perception of blue, etc for the purpose of experiencing blue, etc, shakes and quivers. And just as a mirage deceives many and makes them say that a full lake or a full river has been seen, so perception also deceives them and makes them say: `This is blue, beautiful, pleasant, permanent.' So too in the case of yellow and so on. Thus it is like a mirage by deception also." ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 33900 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:38am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep, I have just read Sukin's reply (thanks for bringing him back) and I want to repeat something he said: "I believe that if you started to look at the Teachings more from the perspective of the present moment, away from any previous tendency to think in terms of situations and `things to do', that you will appreciate more what Nina and others have been saying." I don't want to speak too soon, but I suspect you are coming around to this "present moment" perspective. Be careful, there is no turning back! :-) ------------------------ REp: > If you want to assert that meditation is not a form of practice according to the Dharma, then you have to provide evidence from the record of the Dharma, > ---------------------- I think perhaps the suttas deal with formal practice under the heading of `wrong views.' After all, formal practice does betray the belief, "By means of self, I shall see that which is not self." This belief forms part of the "All Embracing Net of Views." ------------------------ REp: > or provide a logical argument that this is so. > ------------------------- Logical arguments such as those provided, incessantly, on dsg? :-) ------------------------ . . . REp: > we have to have some basis to discuss it that we have in common. > ------------- Agreed. As you say, there is no point in relying on personal affidavits: we need an interpretation of the Dhamma (including `Path Factors' and `factors for enlightenment') that is consistent with the entire Tipitaka. -------------- . . . REp: > Ken has provided a logical argument against meditation, but it seems more about the idea of practice than about the practice itself, that the idea of practice necessarily invokes the ego. > ---------------------------- Yes, because it is not the actual formal practice that prevents satipatthana. It is the wrong view of the person who would engage in formal practise. -------------------------- REp: > This seems like an important but tangential argument that applies equally to anything that humans do, including all the things that are auspicious for reaching enlightenment. > ---------------------------- Yes, but does the reverse apply: would a person who has no wrong view (not even subtle wrong view) associate with wise friends, listen to the Dhamma and wisely consider the Dhamma? I'm sure he would, but I don't think he would engage in formal, conventional, vipassana meditation. ---------------------------- REp: > over the months or years that these issues have come up, I have heard that breathing was used as a descriptive setting by the Buddha in the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta because those who Buddha addressed at that time happened to be versed in breathing meditation, > --------------------------- When the Buddha appeared in the world and proclaimed the Dhamma, everything changed: the doctrine of anatta rendered all conventional knowledge obsolete and unworkable in the ultimate sense. So the Buddha travelled throughout the country, demonstrating how his way of understanding applied to the various daily-life activities that people were engaged in. The best-known example is, `how does one practise mindfulness of breathing in accordance with the Dhamma' but I imagine there were innumerable other instances. For example, in the `Discourse to Sigala' we learn about the custom of worshipping the six quarters; East, South, West, North, the nadir and the zenith. The motive was to gain the goodwill of every possible god and deva. When the Buddha met a young man who was engaged in this practice, he explained how a noble disciple would observe the six quarters. ---------------------------- . . . REp: > I have asked how then is this a practice in any sense of the word, -------------------------- Admittedly, satipatthana is not a practice in the conventional sense of the word. Unlike (for example) piano practice, it bears no outward signs that would distinguish it from other aspects of daily life. Provided panna has been developed, satipatthana can occur during any activity. So, there cannot be a conventional practice of satipatthana. Kind regards, Ken H 33901 From: sarahdhhk Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi RobM (& Nina). robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of Abhidhamma > > lecture notes written by U Silananda and there is a section > > titled, "Reasons for Existence of Hadaya Vatthu" extracted from the > > commentary to the Visuddhimagga and the commentary to the > > Abhidhammathsangaha. I reproduce it below with my clarifications. ..... S: I looked to see if these notes were included in the very helpful binder of hand-outs and charts by U Silananda which you gave us and they aren't. Please keep sharing any on list as his comments are always helpful I think and he sticks closely to the texts. Yesterday when I was checking the Patthana (discussion with Htoo), I noticed that U Narada in his translation puts (heart) base to differentiate it from other bases as in `volition is related to (heart-) base by kamma condition'. Nina, I see that U Silananda also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in the hand-outs RobM gave us: " `Jhaana is twofold: (1) that which examines closely the object (aaramma.nuupanijjhaana), and (2) that which examines closely the characteristics (lakkha.nuupanijjhaana). The Eight Attainments (4 Ruupaavacara jhaanas and 4 aruupaavacara jhaanas) are called aaramma.nuupanijjhaana because they examine closely the (mental)object of earth-ka.sina, etc. Vipassanaa is so called because it examines closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Magga is so called because the work done by Vipassanaa comes to be accomplished through magga (i.e when Magga is reached). Phala is so called because it examines closely the Truth of Cessation which is the characteristic of truth.' (A.t.thasaalinii, 211)" ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 33902 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahdhhk" wrote: > Hi RobM (& Nina). > > robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of > Abhidhamma > > > lecture notes written by U Silananda and there is a section > > > titled, "Reasons for Existence of Hadaya Vatthu" extracted > from the > > > commentary to the Visuddhimagga and the commentary to > the > > > Abhidhammathsangaha. I reproduce it below with my > clarifications. > ..... > S: I looked to see if these notes were included in the very helpful > binder of hand-outs and charts by U Silananda which you gave > us and they aren't. Please keep sharing any on list as his > comments are always helpful I think and he sticks closely to the > texts. Should be there; please check Chapter 6, Part 4, Page 98 (between "Middha is not Rupa" and "Vatthu Dyad" Metta, Rob M :-) 33903 From: sarahdhhk Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi RobM, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Should be there; please check Chapter 6, Part 4, Page 98 > (between "Middha is not Rupa" and "Vatthu Dyad" .... S: OK, found. Not sure why I missed it when I looked before. Anyway, pls keep quoting for others who don't have it;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 33904 From: sarahdhhk Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi RobEp, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Hi Sarah. > Thanks for your reply. It contains some good subtle responses to some > of the questions I raised, as well as very astute catching of my > tendencies to assert this or that situation as being akusala. .... S: Thx and yes, when we make assertions about situations it's just thinking instead of being aware of a reality now. Anyway, the good news is that there can be awareness of thinking at these times too.This is the only way (i.e development of satipatthana at this moment) that there can be detachment from ignorance, wrong view and attachment. At each moment of satipatthana (i.e sati, panna and associated factors), there is a little more confidence (saddha) in the truth about paramattha dhammas as I see it. ..... >When > you say that whether you hold onto a view is kusala or not depends on > whether the view is kusala, whether the holding on is kusala, etc., > you make it even more clear that once again there is nothing to hold > onto, even one's view of holding on or not holding on, and that gets > one down to a slightly more subtle level of seeing how tenaciously one > [or I in this case] hold on subtly to this or that view about what to > do, which contains a seed of self-hood in the tendency to want to know > that certain things can be done to increase the conditions for > enlightenment [or whatever else we desire.] .... S: Exactly.The purpose of satipatthana as I see it is just to understand realities as they are, so there needn't be any questions about time and place and position. The seed of self-hood you refer to and the expectations accompanying it will lead in the opposite direction whenever they arise. So we don't need to think in terms of a `practice' or `method' or `formal meditation' at all. When there is a moment of satipatthana, there's no idea of self or `how' or `when'. ... S: I enjoyed your summary to date to Andrew a lot as well. I hope you continue to engage him as well as the others;-) Yes, I have a problem with any suggestions of `doing', such as `doing meditation, `doing jhana' or even `doing sutta or Abhidhamma reading/study' for that matter. As you wrote: ..... >I'm pretty sure that most of us interpet the suttas according to their pre-existing beliefs about what they mean, rather than come at them fresh.< ... S: Yes, no fresh or clean slate.....and whether this is good or bad will depend on the conditioned mental states arising as we read;-) Even our discussion now may condition how we read a sutta. Hopefully, as wisdom develops, the pre-existing beliefs will be more and more helpful. .... >I am told that the only "practice in accord with the Dharma" is the arising of satipatthana -- not the practice of arousing mindfulness through observation of the moment, but the actual arising of satipatthana -- although this is not a "practice" in any sense of the word, but a result that comes from without. In this definitionn of practice there is no practice that leads to it, so it is another happening based on arising conditions, and there is really nothing to practice< .... S: ;-) One way, one path - that of satipatthana. A moment of right awareness and understanding now of a reality appearing is the practice in accord with the Dhamma. No self at all. As to your question about appropriate conditions, I can quote about the listening, considering, good friend and so on. If there is wise reflection right now and some degree of understanding, that is the right condition and then there is no doubt about the need for any other conditions or actions or special `doing'. As to whether we learn from those `further along' or all and sundry as you described, I think that none of us would be here if we didn't see the value of learning from the Buddha and his teachings and if we didn't see that these are true and apply to each moment regardless of where and with whom we find ourselves, yet again by conditions. I'll leave you with a sutta I quoted fairly recently which I think you may find relevant. Metta, Sarah SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi transl] "Is there a method of exposition, bhikkhus, by means of which a bhikkhu -apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it* - can declare final knowledge thus: `Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being'?"** <....> "There is a method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith.....apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it - can declare final knowledge thus: `Destroyed is birth....there is no more for this state of being.' And what is that method of exposition? Here, bhikkhus, having seen a form with the eye, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internally, a bhikkhu understands: `There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally'; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: "There is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.' Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?" "No, venerable sir." "Aren't these things to be undeerstood by seeing them with wisdom?***" "Yes, venerable sir." "This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu can declare final knowledge thus: `Destroyed is birth..there is no more for this state of being.' "Further, bhikkhus, having heard a sound with the ear....Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internallly..........etc' <....> "This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it- can declare final knowledge thus: "Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being." ***** * BB note 150: As at 12:68 [Kosambi] ** Pali for this paraAtthi naa kho bhikkhave, pariyàyo ya'n pariyàya'n àgamma bhikkhu a~n~natreva saddhàya a~n~natra- ruciyà a~n~natra anussavà a~n~natra àkàraparivitakkà a~n~natra di.t.thinijjhànakkhantiyà a~n~na'n vyàkareyya: "khii.nà jàti, vusita'n brahmacariya'n, kata'n kara.niiya'n nàpara'n itthattàyàti pajànàmã" ti~n ***dhammà pa~n~nàya disvà veditabbàti ===== 33905 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and calm Nina (and Sarah, Howard and Sukin) --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Jon, Sarah, Howard, Sukin, > N: I did not keep the post but remember: who is concentrated sees things as > they really are. Concentration as proximate cause. I thought of it > today. Yes, I think you are referring to SN 22:5 which reads: <"Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are. "And what does he understand as it really is? The origin and passing away of form; the origin and passing away of feeling; the origin and passing away of perception; the origin and passing away of volitional formations; the origin and passing away of consciousness."> (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, trans Bhikkhu Bodhi) According to the Visuddhi-Magga, this is a reference to concentration as proximate cause of insight in one who is developing insight based on (immediately past) moments of samatha. In the section dealing with the benefits of developing concentration the Visuddhi-Magga gives 5 benefits, the second of which is (XI, 121): <121. When ordinary people and trainers develop it, thinking, 'After emerging we shall exercise insight with concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause of insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is concentrated understands correctly' (S.iii,13).> This reminds me very much of the Anapanasati Sutta which, if I remember correctly, talks about insight arising after emerging from jhana. Perhaps both are describing the same process? Jon 33906 From: nidive Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:11am Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > In A 4 87, it is said that a saman.apun.d.ariiko is an arahant who > lacks eight vimokkhas. Here, the Pali passage ¡¥no ca kho at.t.ha > vimokkhe kaayena phusitvaa viharati¡¦ is understood by the > commentator as ¡¥having none of the eight vimokkhas¡¦, since he > regards this samanapundarika as a ¡¥sukkhavipassaka arahat¡¦. So > this Pali passage in fact, according to commentaries, allows two > different interpretations. The other one is, as you have mentioned, > showed in Pugg-a. Even if we don't follow the commentators' > reading, from the logic of language, the Pali passage itself means > 'one does not have (all) the eight vimokkhas', which allows the > interpretations that 'one has some or none of them'. Doesn't it? Previously, I too understood that it could be interpreted as "one has some or none of them". Now, I understand it differently. The eight vimokkhas specifically refer to the four rupa jhanas, the four arupa jhanas, plus the "cessation of perception & feeling". That makes it nine, not eight! But the Buddha apparently purposefully reclassified them as eight vimokkhas, as if just to make a point. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn15.html "Ananda, there are these eight emancipations. Which eight? "Possessed of form, one sees forms. This is the first emancipation. "Not percipient of form internally, one sees forms externally. This is the second emancipation. "One is intent only on the beautiful. This is the third emancipation. "With the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, 'Infinite space,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fourth emancipation. "With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, thinking, 'Infinite consciousness,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the fifth emancipation. "With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, 'There is nothing,' one enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is the sixth emancipation. "With the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, one enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the seventh emancipation. "With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, one enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the eighth emancipation. "Now, when a monk attains these eight emancipations in forward order, in reverse order, in forward and reverse order, when he attains them and emerges from them wherever he wants, however he wants, and for as long as he wants, when through the ending of the mental fermentations he enters and remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having directly known it and realized it in the here and now, he is said to be a monk released in both ways. And as for another release in both ways, higher or more sublime than this, there is none." --------------------------------------------------------------------- If we take DN 15 as it is, it should be very clear that an arahant is released in both ways if and only if that arahant possesses all the eight vimokkhas. In fact, the criteria for being classified as "released in both ways" is the attainment of the "cessation of perception & feeling". The attainment of the "cessation of perception & feeling" is only available to anagamis & arahants who are skilled in attaining & emerging from the four rupa and four arupa jhanas. So, the difference between an arahant released in both ways and an arahant who is NOT released in both ways lies in the attainment of the "cessation of perception & feeling". And that, I think is what the Buddha is contrasting. He wasn't touching on the issue of whether an arahant who is NOT released in both ways has some or none of the seven lower vimokkhas. This was not said. But what was said is the contrasting. When we take the contrasting into perspective, the issue of "one has some or none of them" is taking the contrasting out of context. Regards, Swee Boon 33907 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:41am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Howard!!! > I think perhaps the suttas deal with formal practice under the > heading of `wrong views.' After all, formal practice does betray > the belief, "By means of self, I shall see that which is not self." > This belief forms part of the "All Embracing Net of Views." > > ------------------------ Such dichotomy plagues all Mahayana teachings: must I read the Suttas and pay formal cult to Buddha, or sitting down tying myself in padmassana in a hot, empty room by hours and hours till I reach the Kingdom of Boredom or the Insight, whatever get me first ? -------------------------- > Logical arguments such as those provided, incessantly, on dsg? :-) > > ------------------------ I should prefer Rocky & Bullwinkle TV Show!!! > > Yes, because it is not the actual formal practice that prevents > satipatthana. It is the wrong view of the person who would engage in > formal practise. > > -------------------------- Buddha always teached the middle path in all human and non-human affairs. Nevermind the technique, trick, cheat, mandala, mantra, tantra, yantra, etc, etc,etc you take hand to calm down mundane tracts of your mind and raise forth insight: Satipatthana IS NOT a technique of meditation, it's the purification of our understanding of external world out of biased, ill-posed,wrong viewpoints impinged at our mind by mundane misconceptions ( as a matter o fact, mahasatipatthama, at my opinion, is achieved only by formal bhikkhus at the Sangha). You can acquire the strongest tantric meditation, that will make you take off headlong to Brahmaloka...but with wrong viewpoints you will only be fooled again and again! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, but does the reverse apply: would a person who has no wrong > view (not even subtle wrong view) associate with wise friends, > listen to the Dhamma and wisely consider the Dhamma? I'm sure he > would, but I don't think he would engage in formal, conventional, > vipassana meditation. > > ---------------------------- Even the simplest vipassana may be very harsh and difficult if performed by a mind plagued by doubts, ill-wills and drama. Such kind of human beings must then acquire Samattha and vipassana, and make both of them work in harmony. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Admittedly, satipatthana is not a practice in the conventional sense > of the word. Unlike (for example) piano practice, it bears no > outward signs that would distinguish it from other aspects of daily > life. Provided panna has been developed, satipatthana can occur > during any activity. So, there cannot be a conventional practice of > satipatthana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Your words hit at full, upasaka! Best regards, Howard! Mettaya, Ícaro 33908 From: Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi, Icaro In the following you are mistakenly addressing me. The post to which you are replying was not mine, it was Ken's. (Of course maybe you meant Ken. I know that some folks call him "Howard".) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/15/04 11:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > Hi Howard!!! > > >I think perhaps the suttas deal with formal practice under the > >heading of `wrong views.' After all, formal practice does betray > >the belief, "By means of self, I shall see that which is not self." > >This belief forms part of the "All Embracing Net of Views." > > > >------------------------ > > Such dichotomy plagues all Mahayana teachings: must I read the > Suttas and pay formal cult to Buddha, or sitting down tying myself in > padmassana in a hot, empty room by hours and hours till I reach the > Kingdom of Boredom or the Insight, whatever get me first ? > > -------------------------- > > >Logical arguments such as those provided, incessantly, on dsg? :-) > > > >------------------------ > > I should prefer Rocky &Bullwinkle TV Show!!! > > > > > >Yes, because it is not the actual formal practice that prevents > >satipatthana. It is the wrong view of the person who would engage > in > >formal practise. > > > >-------------------------- > > Buddha always teached the middle path in all human and non-human > affairs. Nevermind the technique, trick, cheat, mandala, mantra, > tantra, yantra, etc, etc,etc you take hand to calm down mundane > tracts of your mind and raise forth insight: Satipatthana IS NOT a > technique of meditation, it's the purification of our understanding > of external world out of biased, ill-posed,wrong viewpoints impinged > at our mind by mundane misconceptions ( as a matter o fact, > mahasatipatthama, at my opinion, is achieved only by formal bhikkhus > at the Sangha). > You can acquire the strongest tantric meditation, that will make > you take off headlong to Brahmaloka...but with wrong viewpoints you > will only be fooled again and again! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >Yes, but does the reverse apply: would a person who has no wrong > >view (not even subtle wrong view) associate with wise friends, > >listen to the Dhamma and wisely consider the Dhamma? I'm sure he > >would, but I don't think he would engage in formal, conventional, > >vipassana meditation. > > > >---------------------------- > > > Even the simplest vipassana may be very harsh and difficult if > performed by a mind plagued by doubts, ill-wills and drama. Such kind > of human beings must then acquire Samattha and vipassana, and make > both of them work in harmony. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >Admittedly, satipatthana is not a practice in the conventional > sense > >of the word. Unlike (for example) piano practice, it bears no > >outward signs that would distinguish it from other aspects of daily > >life. Provided panna has been developed, satipatthana can occur > >during any activity. So, there cannot be a conventional practice > of > >satipatthana. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Your words hit at full, upasaka! > > Best regards, Howard! > > Mettaya, Ícaro > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33909 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and calm Hi Jon > Yes, I think you are referring to SN 22:5 which reads: > <"Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated > understands things as they really are. > "And what does he understand as it really is? The origin and passing away > of form; the origin and passing away of feeling; the origin and passing > away of perception; the origin and passing away of volitional formations; > the origin and passing away of consciousness."> > (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, trans Bhikkhu Bodhi) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact! And well remembered, Sir! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > This reminds me very much of the Anapanasati Sutta which, if I remember > correctly, talks about insight arising after emerging from jhana. Perhaps > both are describing the same process? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- At the Anapanasati Sutta's viewpoint, if you enter the Samadhi of absorption of the four elements, either by Vipassana or Jhana, you reach the shore of the Seven Elements Samadhi and after the final step, the Nibbana. You can begin either by Jhana or Vipassana: Buddha put the Jhanas at the topmost of His System of mind cultivation, but seems to me that the insights described at the final passages of the Anapanasati Sutta are more inclined to Vipassana! A horseman riding through Canadian Northern woods feels the breeze at his face...but it's his horse that are making all effort. In this case Jhana is the horse and Vipassana the horsemen ( the insight is that splendid sunrise at Northern canadian woods, when the marigolds buddeth forth with other beautifull flowers and birds song exquisite tunes while flying at the purest blue sky. The sweet breeze comes down the canadian Rocky Montains refreshing the sweat that pours out the skin as menthol, etc, etc,etc...) Mettaya, Ícaro 33910 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:19am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) dear Howard! > In the following you are mistakenly addressing me. Entschuldigen Sie Bitte! Sometimes I really mistake the Kens !!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 33911 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:36am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 2 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 2 Attachment to our own kusala can arise immediately in between the kusala cittas. The Abhidhamma is of great benefit because it teaches that there are many different processes of cittas, some with kusala cittas and others with akusala cittas, succeeding one another extremely rapidly. All these cittas are arising because of different conditions, there is no person who owns them. The understanding of the truth of paramattha dhammas will lead to detachment from the wrong view of self. We need guidance of the suttas but also of the Abhidhamma. Otherwise we do not learn about the fine distinctions between different moments such as kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas. And if we do not know anything about processes of cittas we have no idea how and when there can be awareness of even akusala dhammas. We would not know how the characteristic of akusala can still be the object of sati and paññå when akusala citta has just fallen away. Kusala citta cannot arise at the same time as akusala citta, but, cittas succeed one another extremely quickly. Kusala citta with awareness can arise very closely after the akusala citta has fallen away, and it can still be aware of the characteristic of akusala. Through the Abhidhamma we learn more about the conditions of the dhammas that arise and this is of immense benefit for the understanding of anattå, no possessor of anything, no self who can steer or manipulate anything. The Buddha taught that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent, dukkha and anattå. These are the three general characteristics of conditioned dhammas that will be clearly penetrated through insight. However, vipassanå is developed stage by stage. The three characteristics are characteristics of nåma and of rúpa, they are not abstract entities. However, before someone can realize the arising and falling away of realities, thus, impermanence, paññå has to directly understand which nåma or which rúpa has arisen and appears and then falls away. In countless suttas the Buddha explained about all the objects experienced one at a time through the six doors. He explained about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, feeling, and thinking which arise all the time. These dhammas have each their own characteristic. First the specific characteristics of nåma and rúpa have to be realized before they can be known as impermanent, dukkha and anattå. Seeing, visible object, cold, hearing, these are all dhammas that each have their own characteristic. When we feel cold there are nåma and rúpa, but we do not distinguish nåma from rúpa; we have an idea, a concept of ourselves feeling cold. In reality cold impinges only on one point of the body at a time, but we join different moments of experiences together into a whole and then we have the impression of feeling cold all over the body. When we are aware of one nåma or rúpa at a time, without thinking, without trying to focus on specific realities, understanding will develop. **** Nina 33912 From: bernard.vital Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:23am Subject: Buddhist teacher I´m still looking for a buddhist teacher. I wat to speak with him. I studied busshisme for some years and I praktize some meditation, but I feel I cannot come further alone any more. Can somebody give me some advize? Mr. Vital E.H. Moors Westerbaenstraat 212 2513 GK Den Haag 070-3648843 bernard.vital@z... www.vitalmoors.nl 33913 From: Molly Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:40pm Subject: Re: Buddhist teacher check out http://www.dhamma.org/eu.htm 33914 From: sarahprocterabbott Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:35am Subject: Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry ---------------------------------------------------------- Let us turn directly to the texts themselves to see if they can shed any light on our problem. When we do survey the Nikaayas with this issue in mind we find, perhaps with some astonishment, that they neither lay down a clear stipulation that jhaana is needed to attain stream-entry nor openly assert that jhaana is dispensable. The Sutta Pi.taka mentions four preconditions for reaching the path, called sotaapattiya,nga, factors of stream-entry, namely: association with superior people (i.e., with the noble ones); listening to the true Dhamma; proper attention; and practice in accordance with the Dhamma.[5] It would seem that all the elements of Buddhist meditative practice, including the jhaanas, should come under the fourth factor, but the Nikaayas themselves do not state whether "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" includes the jhaanas. The few texts that specify what is actually meant by "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" are invariably concerned with insight meditation. They employ a fixed formula, with variable subjects, to describe a bhikkhu practising in such a way. Two suttas define such practice as aimed at the cessation of the factors of dependent origination (SN II 18, 115); another, as aimed at the cessation of the five aggregates (SN III 163–64); and still another, as aimed at the cessation of the six sense bases (SN IV 141). Of course, meditation practice undertaken to attain the jhaanas would have to be included in "practice in accordance with the Dhamma," but the texts give no ground for inferring that such practice is a prerequisite for reaching stream-entry. A stream-enterer is endowed with four other qualities, mentioned often in the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta (SN chap. 55). These, too, are called sotaapattiya,nga, but in a different sense than the former set. These are the factors that qualify a person as a stream-enterer. The first three are "confirmed confidence" (aveccappasaada) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha; the fourth is "the virtues dear to the noble ones," generally understood to mean inviolable adherence to the Five Precepts. From this, we can reasonably suppose that in the preliminary stage leading up to stream-entry the aspirant will need firm faith in the Three Jewels (the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha) and scrupulous observance of the Five Precepts. Further, the realization of stream-entry itself is often depicted as a cognitive experience of almost ocular immediacy. It is called the gaining of the eye of the Dhamma (dhammacakkhu-pa.tilaabha), the breakthrough to the Dhamma (dhammaabhisamaya), the penetration of the Dhamma (dhamma-pa.tivedha).[6] One who has undergone this experience is said to have "seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma, fathomed the Dhamma."[7] Taken together, both modes of description – by way of the four factors of stream-entry and by way of the event of realization – indicate that the disciple has arrived at stream-entry primarily through insight supported by unwavering faith in the Three Jewels. It is noteworthy that the texts on the realization of stream-entry make no mention of any prior accomplishment in jhaana as a prerequisite for reaching the path. In fact, several texts show the breakthrough to stream-entry as occurring to someone without any prior meditative experience, simply by listening to the Buddha or an enlightened monk give a discourse on the Dhamma.[8] ****** Notes 5. Sappurisasa.mseva, saddhammasavana, yoniso manasikaara, dhammaanudhammapa.tipadaa. See SN 55:55/V 410–11. 6. Dhammacakkhu-pa.tilaabha, dhammaabhisamaya, dhamma-pa.tivedha. See SN II 134–38 for the first two; the third is more a commentarial expression used to explain the second. 7. Di.t.thadhamma, pattadhamma, viditadhamma, pariyogaa.lhadhamma; at e.g. DN I 110, MN I 501, etc. 8. DN I 110, MN I 501, as well as SN III 106, 135, etc. 33915 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:40am Subject: Yahoo glitches Dear Friends. There seem to be a few glitches at the moment for those with yahoo accounts as the services are 'upgraded', so know you're not alone. For example, Jon says that only some but not all messages have been coming to his in box (so he needs to check at the website) and I've been unable to properly read my other yahoo account - it's like I'm trying to read through a venetian blind and I'm unable to use it for replies. On the otherhand, this yahoo account is having no problems, so I'm now getting messages and replying from here. The good news is that my accounts were all reading around 80-90% full and need of clean outs but magically they are now only about 5% full due to the extra space without my having done anything;-) Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone is having bouncing problems anytime, let us know if you need help (off-list). We can also check the history to see whether the problems are at the yahoo/your server end. With some servers, especially hotmail, it's usually the latter. ====== 33916 From: jonoabb Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:01am Subject: Re: Hello, I'm a new member Howard (and Tzunkuen) I appreciate your attempt to give a fair description of the last-mentioned group of members in your analysis below, but I think there is room for some improvement ;-)). While it's true that knowledge of and reflection on the teachings as contained in the Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma, are a sine qua non for the arising of insight in this lifetime, there are of course other important factors at play also. Furthermore, that knowledge of the teachings can be gained by whatever means including, for example, participating in discussions with those whose understanding is greater than our own. So I'd suggest for the last group a description something like this: There is also a core of members here who read the Buddha's teachings on the development of insight as being applicable to the present moment regardless of the surrounding circumstances or the individual's mental state, and as something that may occur independently of the specific intention to practice at the time, provided there is the appropriate level of exposure to and interest in the teachings [in this lifetime] to support the (re)arising of previously developed insight [i.e., in previous lifetimes]. Now you may consider this largely a matter of emphasis, but I think there's some difference of substance there too ;-)) Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tzungkuen - > Among the members, many meditate regularly. Some of us engage in > formal meditation only - sitting and/or walking meditation - with a variety of > meditation subjects (the breath in many cases) and with a mix of samatha and > vipassana cultivation techniques. Others, including me, also engage in mindfulness > during "ordinary times" as we go about our daily routines. Still others engage > in such ongoing mindfulness practice, but forego formal meditation sessions. > There is also a core of members here who, following a strong wu-wei > sense of anatta and uncontrollability, and seeing any actions that might suggest > an imposition of "self" or a false attempt at forcing matters as > counterproductive, do not engage in "official" meditation at all, but, do, carefully and > with great concentration, study and contemplate the Theravadin tipitaka, > especially Abhidhamma, in great detail and at great length, with the idea that these > teaching seeds, well watered by careful study and contemplation, will bear > the eventual fruit of wisdom. > > With metta, > Howard 33917 From: Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello, I'm a new member Hi, Jon - Well, it's only fair that characterizations be attempted from those "on the inside" as well as those "on the outside". With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/16/04 10:05:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard (and Tzunkuen) > > I appreciate your attempt to give a fair description of the last-mentioned > group of > members in your analysis below, but I think there is room for some > improvement ;-)). > > While it's true that knowledge of and reflection on the teachings as > contained in the > Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma, are a sine qua non for the arising of > insight in > this lifetime, there are of course other important factors at play also. > Furthermore, > that knowledge of the teachings can be gained by whatever means including, > for > example, participating in discussions with those whose understanding is > greater than > our own. > > So I'd suggest for the last group a description something like this: > There is also a core of members here who read the Buddha's teachings on the > development of insight as being applicable to the present moment regardless > of the > surrounding circumstances or the individual's mental state, and as something > that > may occur independently of the specific intention to practice at the time, > provided > there is the appropriate level of exposure to and interest in the teachings > [in this > lifetime] to support the (re)arising of previously developed insight [i.e., > in previous > lifetimes]. > > Now you may consider this largely a matter of emphasis, but I think there's > some > difference of substance there too ;-)) > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33918 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:52am Subject: Re: Hello, I'm a new member Hi Jon > I appreciate your attempt to give a fair description of the last- >mentioned group of > members in your analysis below, but I think there is room for some >improvement ;-)). >--------------------------------------------------------------------- It's more a matter of stimulus for more Dhamma researches than room for now members, for sure! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Furthermore, > that knowledge of the teachings can be gained by whatever means including, for > example, participating in discussions with those whose understanding is greater than > our own. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Besides the usual DSG meetings at Bangkok, Índia and Malasya, what about a online "Dhamma Symposium", with some invited Sayadaw or even Bhikkhu Bodhi ? Dream on... --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > So I'd suggest for the last group a description something like this: > There is also a core of members here who read the Buddha's teachings on the > development of insight as being applicable to the present moment regardless of the > surrounding circumstances or the individual's mental state, and as something that > may occur independently of the specific intention to practice at the time, provided > there is the appropriate level of exposure to and interest in the teachings [in this > lifetime] to support the (re)arising of previously developed insight [i.e., in previous > lifetimes]. > > Now you may consider this largely a matter of emphasis, but I think there's some > difference of substance there too ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- you say it, man!!! mettaya, Ícaro 33919 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:07am Subject: Comments to Vis. note 35 The following note 35 is not part of the Tiika, but it is from the translator of the Visuddhimagga. I shall add some remarks. 'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result (see Pm.463). 'Unprofitable' in the opposite sense. 'Indeterminate' because not describable as either profitable or unprofitable (see Pm. 464). This is the first of the twenty-two triads in the Abhidhamma Maatikaa (Dhs., p. 1). Pali has five principal words, naama, vi~n~naa.na, mano, citta, and ceto, against the normal English 'consciousness' and 'mind'. While their etymology can be looked up in the dictionary, one or two points need noting here. 'Naama' (rendered by 'mentality' when not used to refer to a name) is almost confined in the sense considered to the expression 'naama-ruupa' ('mentality-materiality') as the fourth member of the dependent origination, where it comprises the three mental aggregates of feeling, perception, and formations, but not that of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na). Nina: Naama is used in a general sense for all mental phenomena and also for nibbana that is an unconditioned naama (Dhammasangani). However, in the context of the Dependent Origination naama stands for the cetasikas of feeling, perception, and formations, thus, for all cetasikas. Note: 'Vi~n~naa.na' (rendered by 'consciousness') is, loosely, more or less a synonym for 'mano' and 'citta'; technically, it is bare cognition considered apart from feeling, perception or formations. N: It is used in connection with khandha and also in the context of the sense-cognitions of cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na, eye-consciousness (or seeing) etc. With bare cognition the translator means: citta has the function of just cognizing an object. This is true for all cittas, no matter they are called vi~n~naa.na, citta or mano. 'Note: Mano' (rendered by 'mind'), when used technically, is confined to the sixth internal base for contact (Ch. XV). N: Mano is used in different contexts. Mano is used in manodvaaraavajana citta, mind-door adverting-consciousness. The mind-door adverting-consciousness adverts to an object through the mind-door. The mind-door, manodvaara, is the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door process begins.There is also the word mano in manaayatana: mind-base, in the context of the aayatanas. The meaning of mind-base is: all cittas. Note: 'Citta' (rendered by 'mind' and 'consciousness' or '[manner of] consciousness'), when used technically, refers to a momentary type-situation considered as vi~n~naa.na in relation to the tone of its concomitant feeling, perception and formations. N: This is not very precise. Citta is always momentary, it arises and falls away immediately. Cittas are varied, they are conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas. Note: Possibly, a better rendering would have been 'cognizance' throughout. It carries a flavour of its etymological relative, 'cetanaa' ('volition'). 'Ceto' (another etymological relative, rendered by 'heart'--i.e. 'seat of the emotions'--, 'will' or 'mind'), when used loosely is very near to 'citta'; but technically it is restricted to one or two such expressions as 'ceto-vimutti' ('mind-deliverance' or 'heart-deliverance'). N: When we study the Abhidhamma we can see that there isn¹t any term used loosely. Nor can we speak of a technical use of terms. Different terms used for citta show us different aspects in different contexts. The Abhidhamma is very precise and it teaches us about realities. **** Nina (P.S. I shall now proceed with the Tiika translation) 33920 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:07am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 3 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 3 When the first stage of tender insight, which is only a beginning stage, arises, paññå directly penetrates the characteristic of nåma as nåma and of rúpa as rúpa, without having to name them nåma and rúpa. Nåma has to be known as nåma, an element that experiences an object, and rúpa has to be known as rúpa, an element that does not know anything. They appear one at a time through the six doorways. Intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa should be correct, and in this way it can be the foundation for direct understanding. Because of our ignorance of realities we believe that we can see and hear at the same time, feel hardness of the table and see a table at the same time. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, those are cittas different from hearing. Evenso, the citta with sati and paññå only experiences one object at a time. Any reality that appears, be it seeing, colour, attachment or aversion, can be the object of sati and paññå. We are bound to take thinking for direct awareness. First we have intellectual understanding of realities, but when there are the right conditions there can be direct awareness without thinking. Then we shall know the characteristic of sati that is directly aware. Acharn Sujin said: ³We may just think of the words, nåma experiences and rúpa does not know anything. However, paññå has to grow so that it can realize the different characteristics of nåma and rúpa as not a person. Then it can realize one characteristic at a time, it can realize that this is a reality which experiences and that is a reality which does not experience anything.² What we take for ourselves or a person are only different nåma-elements and rúpa elements arising because of their appropriate conditions. Elements, dhåtus, are realities devoid of self. U Narada wrote in his Introduction to the translation of Dhåtu-Kathå, the third Book of the Abhidhamma (PTS:Discourse on Elements): “The elements are not permanently present. They arise to exhibit their own characteristic natures and perform their own characteristic functions when the proper conditions are satisfied, and they cease after their span of duration. Thus no being has any control over the arising and ceasing of the elements and they are not at his mercy or will however mighty and powerful he may be. In other words, the elements have no regard for anyone, show no favour to anyone and do not accede to the wishes of anyone. They are entirely dependent on conditions... For example, when the four conditions: a visible object, the sense of sight, light and attention, are present, the eye-consciousness element arises. No power can prevent this element from arising when these conditions are present or cause it to arise when one of them is absent.² **** Nina. 33921 From: Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35 "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result (see Pm.463)." Hi Nina, This is interesting. Could you expand on it a little? Larry 33922 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:03pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: ?^???G[dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Rob Thanks for your reply. > I felt a sense of deep disappointment. I felt that the tone of the > writing was overly combative from both sides. I have a sense that > monks, especially senior and respected monks, should not resort > to "intellectual mudslinging" (perhaps calling it "intellectual > mudslinging" is an exageration, but that was the impression that I > was left with). I was reminded of the writings of Nanavira Thera, > which I find to be very negative. > Maybe I am naive, but I expect monks to be positive. I have no > problem with a monk criticizing, but I feel that it should be done > with compassion. I remember that the said two Theras didn't use harsh words in their articles. Surely, they have to be very firm in their standpoints. I prefer to think that they argued with each other out of compassion for each other and the public. with metta Tzung-kuen 33923 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:21pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG?^???GRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Swee Boon Thanks for your reply. > If we take DN 15 as it is, it should be very clear that an arahant > is released in both ways if and only if that arahant possesses all > the eight vimokkhas. > > In fact, the criteria for being classified as "released in both > ways" is the attainment of the "cessation of perception & feeling". The critierias showed in the Nikayas themselves for 'ubhatobhagavimutta' seem to be varied. In Kitagirisutta (M 1 477,PTS), an arahant who has arupa jhanas is said to be 'ubhatobhagavimutta'. It seems that in A 4 452-53 even an ariya who has only 1st jhana can be a ubhatobhagavimutta. According to Vism, and other Pali commentaries, the criteria for this is arupajjhana, an arahant who has any of the arupajjanas can be said to be ubhatobhagavimutta. metta Tzung-kuen 33924 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:39pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Dear Rob and Sarah > > Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of > Abhidhamma > > > lecture notes written by U Silananda I'm interesting in the notes. What are the notes of Ven U Silananda Sayadaw about? Abhidhammatthasangaha ? Could we find the notes on the internet? If not, how to get them? Could one learn it by himself relying only on the notes? Actually, 4 years ago, when I visited Chanmyay Yeiktha in Yangon, a kind lady who learned Abhidhamma from Ven U Silananda Sayadaw gave me some audio tapes and notes, but the tpaes' quality seems to be not so good, the voice is very low. Are there any good-quality tapes or MP3 available of Sayadaw's lectures on Abhidhamma? with metta Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. ----- 즳«H¥ó ----- ±H¥ó¤H: robmoult ¤é´Á: ¬P´Á¤G, ¤»¤ë 15, 2004 7:01 ¤U¤È ¥D¦®: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahdhhk" > > wrote: > > Hi RobM (& Nina). > > > > robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of > > Abhidhamma > > > > lecture notes written by U Silananda and there is a section > > > > titled, "Reasons for Existence of Hadaya Vatthu" extracted > > from the > > > > commentary to the Visuddhimagga and the commentary to > > the > > > > Abhidhammathsangaha. I reproduce it below with my > > clarifications. > > ..... > > S: I looked to see if these notes were included in the very > helpful > > binder of hand-outs and charts by U Silananda which you gave > > us and they aren't. Please keep sharing any on list as his > > comments are always helpful I think and he sticks closely to the > > texts. > > Should be there; please check Chapter 6, Part 4, Page 98 > (between "Middha is not Rupa" and "Vatthu Dyad" > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33925 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Dhamma practice. Hi Jon, I would like to add something to your excellent analysis. It is very necessary to develop all good qualities such as the perfections, in alternation with satipatthana. We have many defilements accumulated and thus, we need all possibly help we can, we should not neglect any means to weaken defilements on our long, long journey. The Brahmaviharas, for example, help very much in our everyday social life, and these can be together with satipatthana. During all those moments we are thinking of persons (we do anyway) the brahmaviharas are most helpful for kusala in thought, speech and action. So, practice in accordance with the dhamma as you explained the other day, also includes the development of all good qualities. As A. Sujin often remarks, they are all accumulated as sankharakkhandha and will eventually bear fruit. You quoted with reference to practice in accordance with the dhamma:<"Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, this is what accords with the dhamma: he should dwell engrossed in revulsion towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness.> When we read about revulsion, we can think of renunciation, nekkhamma, and not just with reference to the bhikkhu life. Through Satipatthana there will be detachment from the khandhas, but also each form of kusala is actually renunciation. You renounce your own selfishness. This should really appear in our personal life and in our social contacts. This is difficult but we can develop it very gradually. We can develop good qualities not with a desire to have more sati, and not because we have to follow a rule, then the purpose is not right, we are still clinging to self. The goal should be to have less defilements. The development of all kinds of kusala makes us less neglectful, less forgetful, and on the other hand, satipatthana conditions the development of them. Through satipatthana there will be less inclination to perform kusala . Nina. op 16-06-2004 16:01 schreef jonoabb op jonoabb@y...: > Furthermore, > that knowledge of the teachings can be gained by whatever means including, for > example, participating in discussions with those whose understanding is > greater than > our own. 33926 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Icaro, Thank you for contributing to this thread. I am not familiar with the term "mahasatipatthana" and so I am not sure what you mean by the following: --------------------- > ( as a matter o fact, mahasatipatthama, at my opinion, is achieved only by formal bhikkhus at the Sangha). > --------------------- Would I be right in thinking that mahasatipatthana is a form of satipatthana that takes jhana citta as its object? That would explain the need to, at least, live like a monk. Failing that, my second guess is that you are referring to the formal practice of `vipassana meditation.' That would explain why you wrote: ----------------------- > Even the simplest vipassana may be very harsh and difficult if performed by a mind plagued by doubts, ill-wills and drama. > ----------------------- Only formal (conventional) vipassana meditation could be plagued by unwholesome states. Needless to say, genuine, momentary, vipassana meditation is entirely wholesome. ---------------------------- Ic: > Such kind of human beings must then acquire Samattha and vipassana, and make both of them work in harmony. > ----------------------------- If a degree of insight has been accumulated then unwholesome (non- calm) states are no barrier -- they can be seen as they really are. But if you are talking about formal vipassana meditation, then I agree: the time passes better with pleasant feelings associated with clinging than it does with doubts, ill-wills and drama. Kind regards, Ken H (the other Howard) :-) 33927 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist teacher Hi Vital, Nice to hear from you again after a long break. --- "bernard.vital" wrote: > I´m still looking for a buddhist teacher. I wat to > speak with him. I studied > busshisme for some years and I praktize some > meditation, but I feel I cannot > come further alone any more. Can somebody give me > some advize? ..... S: My advice is that if one doesn’t meet or hear from someone who guides and helps one in one’s practice, then it’s better to study alone with the ‘Dhamma’ as one’s Guide. “We shall abide by the Dhamma, live uprightly in the Dhamma, walk in the way of the Dhamma.” (Parinibbana Sutta) Why not ask your questions here and share any difficulties so others may benefit too? At first such questions may seem rather personal, but slowly we can find out that our problems and dilemmas are not anything special but very common. After all the teaching is about anatta and wisdom is developed by understanding of the truths in life. We can all help each other a little here by sharing, asking and giving our comments. Molly, I hope we may see your name a little more too. Can I encourage you to give a short intro.? Metta, Sarah ===== 33928 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi RobM (& Phil). I thought your post on naming and the Mulapariyaya sutta to Phil was excellent and you gave a very good summary. One small point (which isn’t intended to detract from these comments at all): --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Phil, > The uninstructed worldling perceives X as X (where X = earth, water, > fire, etc.). The Sotapanna, Arahant and Buddha directly know X. One > might think that perceiving X as X is a good thing, but the > commentary explains that the Sutta means that uninstructed worldling > is subject to perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) whereas the > Sotapanna, etc. are not. .... S: I would just add ‘perversion of perception accompanying wrong view or di.t.thi vipallasa)’. The Sotapanna continues to have sanna vipallasa, but no more wrong view. p40 ‘under the worldling’, sub-cy: “If so, (it may be asked), why is perception mentioned? Because it is evident. Just as, when a fire is smouldering and smoke is seen, although the fire exists, we say ‘there is smoke’ rather than ‘there is fire’, because the smoke is more evident; in an analogous way, although conceiving is already exercising its function (in this perception), this function is not distinct. the function of perception alone is distinct, for perception is more evident......And when it is said that he perceives it thinking ‘it is earth,’ he means that, without releasing a segment of earth from among these four kinds, he perceives what is in its true nature devoid of self, etc, as endowed with a self, etc, like one perceiving a lump on the head as a piece of gold.” With regard to the sotapanna, from cy p61: “The learner has abandoned the conceiving of views, and has diminished the others.” So all ditthi vipallasa are eradicated and also the other perversions regarding permanence and self. However there continue to be the other sanna and citta vipallasa arising with unwholesome mind states such as craving and conceit. .... > Back to the Mulapariya Sutta... Because the unistructed worldling is > subject to perversion of perception, their conceptual response is all > messed up. To quote the Sutta, "Having perceived earth as earth, he > conceives himself as earth, he conceives himself in earth, he > conceives himself apart from earth, he conceives 'earth is mine', he > delights in earth. What is the reason? Because it has not been fully > understood by him, I declare." .... S: Again, I’d add ‘subject to perversion of perception with wrong view’ to really make it clear. This may be a bit picky -- but then you’re used to us here....;-) -- otherwise a great piece worthy of re-posting again and again. Metta, Sarah p.s The one on accumulations/conditions was a good one too (imho always). I was glad to see you stressing the Buddha's extraordinary wisdom when it came to the Abhidhamma and particularly the Patthana. ..... RobM: >”The seventh book of the Abhidhamma (Patthana) is dedicated to the explanation of conditions; the 24 ways in which one thing can support another. This is the most complex part of the Abhidhamma. It is said that when the Buddha sat down to contemplate on the Abhidhamma in the fifth week after His enlightenment, that when he came to contemplate on conditions He started to emit rays of six colours because he had finally found a subject worthy of His intellect”< ===== 33929 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahdhhk" wrote: > Hi RobEp, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > wrote: > > Hi Sarah. > > Thanks for your reply. It contains some good subtle responses > to some > > of the questions I raised, as well as very astute catching of my > > tendencies to assert this or that situation as being akusala. > .... > S: Thx and yes, when we make assertions about situations it's > just thinking instead of being aware of a reality now. Anyway, the > good news is that there can be awareness of thinking at these > times too.This is the only way (i.e development of satipatthana at > this moment) that there can be detachment from ignorance, > wrong view and attachment. At each moment of satipatthana (i.e > sati, panna and associated factors), there is a little more > confidence (saddha) in the truth about paramattha dhammas as > I see it. > ..... > >When > > you say that whether you hold onto a view is kusala or not > depends on > > whether the view is kusala, whether the holding on is kusala, > etc., > > you make it even more clear that once again there is nothing to > hold > > onto, even one's view of holding on or not holding on, and that > gets > > one down to a slightly more subtle level of seeing how > tenaciously one > > [or I in this case] hold on subtly to this or that view about what > to > > do, which contains a seed of self-hood in the tendency to want > to know > > that certain things can be done to increase the conditions for > > enlightenment [or whatever else we desire.] > .... > S: Exactly.The purpose of satipatthana as I see it is just to > understand realities as they are, so there needn't be any > questions about time and place and position. The seed of > self-hood you refer to and the expectations accompanying it will > lead in the opposite direction whenever they arise. So we don't > need to think in terms of a `practice' or `method' or `formal > meditation' at all. When there is a moment of satipatthana, > there's no idea of self or `how' or `when'. > ... > S: I enjoyed your summary to date to Andrew a lot as well. I hope > you continue to engage him as well as the others;-) Yes, I have a > problem with any suggestions of `doing', such as `doing > meditation, `doing jhana' or even `doing sutta or Abhidhamma > reading/study' for that matter. > > As you wrote: > ..... > >I'm pretty sure that most of us interpet the suttas according to > their > pre-existing beliefs about what they mean, rather than come at > them > fresh.< > ... > S: Yes, no fresh or clean slate.....and whether this is good or bad > will depend on the conditioned mental states arising as we > read;-) Even our discussion now may condition how we read a > sutta. Hopefully, as wisdom develops, the pre-existing beliefs > will be more and more helpful. > .... > >I am told that the only "practice in accord with the Dharma" is > the arising of satipatthana -- not the practice of arousing > mindfulness through observation of the moment, but the actual > arising of satipatthana -- although this is not a "practice" in any > sense of the word, but a result that comes from without. In this > definitionn of practice there is no practice that leads to it, so it is > another happening based on arising conditions, and there is > really nothing to practice< > .... > S: ;-) One way, one path - that of satipatthana. A moment of right > awareness and understanding now of a reality appearing is the > practice in accord with the Dhamma. No self at all. If no one is doing anything, why is it called "practice?" Isn't this kind of misleading?? > As to your question about appropriate conditions, I can quote > about the listening, considering, good friend and so on. If there > is wise reflection right now and some degree of understanding, > that is the right condition and then there is no doubt about the > need for any other conditions or actions or special `doing'. > > As to whether we learn from those `further along' or all and > sundry as you described, I think that none of us would be here if > we didn't see the value of learning from the Buddha and his > teachings and if we didn't see that these are true and apply to > each moment regardless of where and with whom we find > ourselves, yet again by conditions. I'll leave you with a sutta I > quoted fairly recently which I think you may find relevant. > > Metta, > > Sarah I like the Sutta. I wonder if Nina or someone else could tell us if B. Bodhi's translation is literal when he says: "There is no more for this state of being." I take it "state of being" is a substitute for what would normally be translated as the "person." Best, Robert 33930 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 0:11am Subject: [dsg] Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobM (& Phil). > > I thought your post on naming and the Mulapariyaya sutta to Phil was > excellent and you gave a very good summary. > > One small point (which isn't intended to detract from these comments at > all): > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Phil, > > The uninstructed worldling perceives X as X (where X = earth, water, > > fire, etc.). The Sotapanna, Arahant and Buddha directly know X. One > > might think that perceiving X as X is a good thing, but the > > commentary explains that the Sutta means that uninstructed worldling > > is subject to perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) whereas the > > Sotapanna, etc. are not. > .... > S: I would just add `perversion of perception accompanying wrong view or > di.t.thi vipallasa)'. The Sotapanna continues to have sanna vipallasa, but > no more wrong view. I wrestled with myself for some time on this. I was concerned that if I went through the uprooting of all of the perversions, that it would take away from my main theme and might confuse Phil further. For the record, here is what Nyanatiloka has to say: "Of the perversions, the following are eliminated by the 1st path- knowledge (sotápatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the 3rd path-knowledge (anágámitá) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the 4th path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant" (Vis.M. XXII, 68). I think what I will do in a similar situation in the future is to insert a comment in brackets saying that I am slightly simplifying things so that the flow is not broken and I don't mistakenly give the wrong impression. Metta, Rob M :-) 33931 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) for clarification Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Yes. That is why I prefer Pali words. Not Pali language and > Pali grammar. If 'micchaditthi' is explained and repeatedly used then > it will become an understandable word of imported word as in other > cases of English words. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Good point! perhaps we’re helpfing to play a small role in importing a few key Pali terms in our discussions here. .... <....> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do understand what you meant. Once I wrote different Kamma at > triplegem. I went into some detail. If requested I may search and > forward them to DSG. .... S: It may be helpful for this discussion, so pls add anytime. (You also suggested adding the Abhidammattha Sangaha in Pali which is a good idea, but I think we’d need English translations;-) Perhaps you could start another series after cittas working through it - a few lines of Pali/Eng and your comments which can be brief. There was some talk before about using this as a text here.) .... >But above paragraph seem denying 'vipaka'. This > means that you said 'not all lobha citta give rise to their effect > which is vipaka'. ... S: I don’t think we can say that every citta with lobha like now when we look at the screen is capable of conditioning vipaka. it accumulates and can be natural decisive support and co-nascent kamma condition,but not every javana citta acts as asynchronous kamma condition. In the Patthana under kamma condition as I said, it differentiates (as I understand) for kusala and akusala cittas and states under these two kinds of kamma condition. Nina and I have discussed this before at length with Rob M (who agrees with you) and it’s not easy to resolve. I think the reason we distinguish between natural decisive support and kamma conditions and between the 3 rounds (va.t.ta) of kilesa, kamma and vipaka is because not all kilesa act as kamma capable of bringing results. Otherwise, why not 2 rounds? .... >I do not prefer your usage there. Nina separately > posted a reply to another topic but included 'patha' that I talked to > you. Thanks Nina. What I am saying is that if javanas are not > arahatta's javana or if they are not kiriya javana, they always have > kamma. If lobha, there always is kamma connected with it. ... S: yes, but not always kamma patha. .... >At the time > of arising this kamma becomes vipaka. If they never give rise to > vipaka, then all those kamma that do not reach to the surface are > called 'Ahosai Kamma'. .... S: Yes. But while kamma patha may be ahosi kamma and not bring a result if any of the conditions required are lacking, not all kamma is capable in the first place of ever bringing a result. For example in Vism X1X, 16 it refers to the fourfold classification of kamma as i) productive (janaka-kamma), ii) consolidating (upatthambhaka), iii) frustrating (upapii.laka) and iv) supplanting ( upaghaataka). Under ‘consolidating kamma’ it says: “ ‘consolidating’ kamma cannot produce result, but when result has already been produced in the provision of rebirth-linking by other kamma, it consolidates the pleasure or pain that arises and makes it last. I’d be glad to hear your further comments or to read your articles. This is a very complex topic only fully comprehended by Buddhas;-). .... > Some kamma give rise to patisandhi and other give rise to pavatti or > when in a life except patisandhi kala. These include cuti. If not > kiriya javana, all lobha citta do have kamma, do create kamma. All > those kamma follow each and every citta like wheel-tracks always > follow footprints of cows in case of cow-drawn cart travelling on the > land. As soon as arahatta magga citta arises, all those kamma that > may give rise to patisandhi cittas do not have any power to give rise > to patisandhi citta. Remaining kamma will follow like wheel-tracks > that follow cow's footprints until cuti citta of arahat after which > all kamma that had been generated through out his samsara will > become 'ahosi kamma' or ineffectual kamma. .... I understand and agree with all the other points and your wise comments on kamma. All other points were well-settled here too;-). Metta, Sarah ===== 33932 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) Hello Sarah and all, I may be particularly tired tonight, but I am having trouble with locating and reading these references from the Jhana posts by BB. SN II 18, 115; SN III 163-64; and SN IV 141; Do they refer to the Samyutta Nikaya? If so, can anyone tell me the page numbers in The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Bhikkhu Bodhi) please? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple > According to the Paali Suttas > > Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi > > Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry <<<<<>>>> Two > suttas define such practice as aimed at the cessation of the > factors of dependent origination (SN II 18, 115); another, as > aimed at the cessation of the five aggregates (SN III 163–64); > and still another, as aimed at the cessation of the six sense > bases (SN IV 141). Of course, meditation practice undertaken to > attain the jhaanas would have to be included in "practice in > accordance with the Dhamma," but the texts give no ground for > inferring that such practice is a prerequisite for reaching > stream-entry. > 33933 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:56am Subject: Re: |^¡G[dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Tzung-Kuen (& RobM), Your detailed comments and familiarity with all the texts are a great asset here. Thank you also for kindly putting your pic in the DSG album. I hope others follow your good example. -- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > > In Theravada Buddhist circles during the past few decades a debate has > > repeatedly erupted over the question whether or not jhaana is > > necessary to attain the "paths and fruits," that is, the four graded > stages of > > enlightenment. The debate has been sparked off by the rise to > prominenceof the various systems of insight meditation that have > > become popular > > The debate Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi mentioned is partly showed in a book > named 'Satipatthana Vipasana: Criticism and Replies' published by > Buddhasasananuggaha Organization in Yangon. .... S: I haven’t seen the book but it seems to be a ‘hot’ topic in many circles. As you go on to say, a lot depends on interpretations of suttas and even more on whether the commentaries and Abhidhamma are fully accepted. I’ve been considering why it is so ‘hot’ and I can only think it is because the answers or interpretations of the suttas affect ideas about ‘practice’. For example, if one has an idea of teaching jhana first or vipassana meditation first, then whether the various stages of enlightenment can be realized without jhana becomes critical and the arguments in support will be loudly defended. However, I wonder if these ideas of practice aren’t based on an idea of ‘steps’ or ‘self doing or taking action’ once again? If instead, we look at the Buddha’s teachings as being concerned with the understanding of present realities, including the understanding of all kinds of kusala (including moments of dana, sila, samatha and vipassana), then the development of wisdom and other wholesome states will develop naturally and according to conditions. Opposing such development are all the various kilesa (defilements), especially self-views, expectations and clinging to results and as I see it doubts about the entire Pali canon, including the Abhidhamma and also the ancient commentaries. So I’m not sure that all the questions about whether or not ‘jhana is optional’ aren’t based on an idea of ‘doing or not doing jhana meditation’ rather than really understanding moments of kusala and the qualities of calm, metta,dana and so on now when they arise as distinct from near and far enemies. I’d be glad of your comments on this and those of others too. ..... I<...> > the debate was firstly aroused by Soma Thera and Kassapa Thera in 1957. > They criticized Mahasi Sayadaw's methods for teaching meditators > vipassana directly without previously attaining jhana. That book (and > other Mahasi Sayadaw's books) can be download in the official Mahasi > website (http://www.mahasi.com/). .... S: I think there is a lot more to be discussed about the meaning of vipassana. When realities are understood, I don’t think there is any argument or criticism. Having said that, I find all your comments in your letters to B.Bodhi and here to raise good points. It’s difficult for me to understand how scholars can justify using parts of the Abhidhamma and ancient Pali commentaries in defence of interpretations and not others. In these commentaries we read about how most of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries themselves (which Buddhaghosa based his compilations on) were rehearsed at the First Council. If we only partially accept them, it seems we’re suggesting our interpretations of the suttas are more valid or that the ancient commentators were speaking falsely when they declared them to have been rehearsed or to be the Buddha’s teaching. Furthermore this falsehood must have been perpetuated by the Mahavihara Theras (large numbers of arahants by report) and the theras from other Theravada countries at the time and in subsequent Councils. By the way, in my other note to you there was a typo under useful posts: one of the entries should have read ‘sotapanna’. Also pls see this post I wrote before, though you already have a very detailed knowledge of these texts.: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30196 There has also been a LOT of discussion on the Yuganaddha Sutta (AN 1V, 170) with many posts by Jon and others. You may like to review these and follow any leads: Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN 1V.170 3905, 7821, 19388, 27712, 30594, 31565 I’m not sure if B.Bodhi addressed the second way of Arahantship - tranquillity preceded by insight (vipassanaa-pubba’ngama’m samatha’m), one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika). I haven’t checked all the references you’ve both referred to as yet. Whatever the rights and wrongs, like now, we’re all studying the Dhamma together, but by inclination we have different strengths and weaknesses - one will have more saddha, another more viriya and so on. So I’m sure that there are a very large number of possibilities depending on cittas arising at the time. I’m particularly glad to read Swee Boon’s comments on other suttas as I know he’s also very familiar with this topic and the suttas under discussion which I’m not. ..... Your widely read summaries of opinions is also appreciated (below) Metta, Sarah ....... > There are also some well-known Western Pali Scholars who suggest > that as far as the Pali Canon is concerned, jhana is not optional, such > as L.S. Cousins and Rupert Gethin, respectively the former and incumbent > president of Pali Text Society in UK. > For me, the question whether we can find evidence in Nikayas or the > Pali Canon for this sukkhavipassaka idea seems to be a matter of > interpretation. Nyanaponika Thera, Nyanuttara Sayadaw, Gunaratana Thera > had given some suttas as evidence for this. However, people who have > different opinions still could interpret them in a different way. > However, It is interesting to note that in Burma, where the study of > Abhidhamma is acknowledgely the most established, where we can find > Tipitakadhajas and more meditation centers than in other Buddhist > countries, it is well accepted that jhana is not absolutely necessary > for attaining Arahantship. =================== 33934 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tolerant spirit of dsg - was,Re: Hello, I'm a new member Dear Betty, I’m delighted to read your recent letters here and would like to encourage you to keep them up, now’re getting mail again. -- mombetty@y... wrote: > In addition, both the meditators and scholars cite the Tipitaka to > support their points of view and then claim there are no citations > within the scriptures themselves supporting the other's point of view. > For one who is rather ignorant of the scriptures, this is very > confusing. Finding supporting citations is further compounded by the > vast size of the entire Tipitaka. .<...> > So, for those who are meditators, "check out" what the scholars are > saying before rejecting them with dosa (aversion). And for those who are > scholars, "check out" samatha "meditation" before rejecting it. Comments > are welcome. ..... > Anguttara Nikaya 6.46 > " Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: `Though we > ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who > are meditators.' And why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world > who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana). > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: `Though we > ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are > Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the > world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult > subject." ... I’d like to requote some notes (mainly from the commentary and with minor amendments) which I gave to this sutta before as you asked for comments: ***** Sarah: >I think this is a good example of a sutta that can be read and understood at many levels... When we first read it, we may appreciate the reminders for tolerance and respect and wise speech in regard to those who appear to follow different paths. We also note how useless bickering and disparaging others are. How easily these can lead to pride and 'puffing-up'. These are useful reminders at any level, for sure! When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner' developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'. If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and commentary notes, I think. The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group of 'meditators' refers those who have attained jhanas. Obviously neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any dispute! From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group, the 'meditators' have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas)' The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars) "penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom (panna) clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize nibbana). So both groups are enlightened but presumably only the second group have attained jhanas. Obviously there is no suggestion that for the first group this is merely an intellectual approach. How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment should be highly respected.< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 33935 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: Fw: [dsg] accumulations/conditions (was: tolerant spirit of dsg) Hi Betty (again;-)), You also gave a very clear description of conditions and accumulations to Phil. I hope he saw it. Just a couple of comments: From: >On the conventional level, what is perceived through the > senses as our surroundings, things, beings, are all conditioned by past > kamma actions. So, they are vipaka condition, the result of past actions. ... S: Perhaps we should just spell out here that seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching are vipaka cittas conditioned to arise by past kamma condition. These cittas and cetasikas arising with them (the seven universals) in the case of these particular vipaka cittas, condition each other, i.e the conascent namas, by vipaka condition. They also therefore condition each other by conascence and mutuality conditions. Contact, feeling, perception, concentration, volition, life-faculty and attention all need each other for support and the citta needs them all as well to arise. (see ch11 in Nina’s book on ‘Conditions’ which you kindly printed and bound for us for more details). As for the perceptions as surroundings and so on, these arise in subsequent mind-door processes, but I know you were merely stressing that usually there’s no awareness of merely the sense objects (visible object and so on) as appearing through the sense doorways. ... > Yes, vipaka is a condition too in the sense that the result happens. ... S: Again, kamma condition brings the result by way of vipaka but vipaka condition merely refers to the way vipaka cittas and cetasikas condition each other by way of being vipaka. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you here. .... S: I liked all your examples such as this one very much: ... B: >But, > Dhamma teaches us that in reality there are only the phenomena of the 5 > khandas rising and falling away all the time because of conditions; there're > no Phil no Betty, no noisy kids, neighbors, etc. So, the more we read, > listen, contemplate on the Dhamma the more conditions are being developed > for increasing understanding of this to arise. That means that the > conventional environment around us gradually becomes less and less of a > factor influencing "us" (there is no "us"), the more that understanding > arises. Gradually, we come to see the conventional environment for what it > is and gradually "we" can let go of the attachment "we" have for it in the > form of irritation (dosa) or liking (lobha). But, and this is a big but, > patience is required. Understanding does not arise when "we" would like it > to; it arises because the conditions are right for it to do so. .... S: Yes, lots of patience is required and the courage and good cheer which Azita always reminds us of too;-) Hope to hear more of your good reminders and have a good trip too;-). Metta, Sarah ======== 33936 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah and all, > > I may be particularly tired tonight, but I am having trouble with > locating and reading these references from the Jhana posts by BB. ... S: Not easy I agree;-) ... > SN II 18, 115; ... S: I think this is p694ff (18:1) but not positive- the 115 might be wrong? .... SN III 163-64; ... S: p.967-8 (22:115) A Speaker on the Dhamma .... and SN IV 141; .... S: p. 1216 (35:155) A Speaker on the Dhamma (!) ... > Do they refer to the Samyutta Nikaya? If so, can anyone tell me the > page numbers in The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Bhikkhu > Bodhi) please? ... S: He's looking at the pali and using the pali references I think. Looking forward to your comments on the extracts to date, Chris!! this is v.rushed -On the never ending snake thread we seem to have, I'll have to tell you later about the 6' brown snake on snake path that dropped from a tree at our sides while Jon and I were discussing whether my actions were right/wrong earlier in the day when I had tried without success to stop two men 'stealing'* baby silver-crested cockatoos from a nest.....oh, and the crocodile in Hong Kong has been caught nearly a year later by a fisherman with the simplest net.... Metta, Sarah *Jon says it may not even be stealing and my intervention was most unwise.... ========== 33937 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) Hi Chris As far as i can figure, the sutta ref's are based on the PTS verse numbering system, which as Sarah mentioned is most likely a standard Pali ref. system. In BB. Samyutta translation you can find these ref. numbers scattered throughout the text in square brackets, e.g. [164]. The III refers to the book number. I find the easiest way to locate a ref. using this system is with the CSCD. On the bottom right hand corner there is a list of scripts and ref. numbers, go to 'Roman' and scroll down till you get to the verse number your looking for. The translation i have is in 1 volume so these page numbers may be different to yours. SNII 18: Nidaanavagga, Nidaanasamyutta,Sutta16, A Speaker on the Dhamma (p545) SNII 115: Nidaanavagga, Nidaanasamyutta Sutta 67, The Sheaves of Reeds (p607) SNIII 163-4: Khandhavagga, Khandhasamyutta,Sutta115-116, A Speaker on the Dhamma (966) SNIV 141: Salayatanasamyutta, Salayatanavagga Sutta155, A Speaker on the Dhamma (p 1216) Steve. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah and all, > > I may be particularly tired tonight, but I am having trouble with > locating and reading these references from the Jhana posts by BB. > SN II 18, 115; SN III 163-64; and SN IV 141; > Do they refer to the Samyutta Nikaya? If so, can anyone tell me the > page numbers in The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Bhikkhu > Bodhi) please? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33938 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 034 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas in total as a compact package in terms of characteristics they each have. There are infinite cittas even in a defined or given single mind moment. But characterwise they all will fall into one or another or the other of these 89 cittas. So far 10 cittas have been discussed in the previous threads. The eleventh ( 11th ) citta in its full name is called 'upekkha sahagatam vicikiccha sampayutta citta'. Upekkha has been repeatedly explained in the previous posts. To re- mention, upekkha is a Pali word made up of 'upa' and 'ekkha'. Upa means 'not extreme' 'not oppose to sukha-not oppose to dukkha' or 'right in the middle of all extreme feelings' and ekkha means 'to feel'. In this 11th citta, there is no happiness, no sadness, no aversion but just indifferent feeling arises. This feeling is vedana cetasika that co-arises with this 11th citta. 11th citta arises in parallel with vicikiccha. Vicikiccha means 'indecisiveness'. Vicikiccha is made up of 'vici' and 'kiccha'. Vici means 'investigate for truth' and kiccha means 'exhaustion from indecisiveness.' So when there is vicikiccha, citta cannot decide anything on the object whether true or not, right or wrong. This 11th citta is a special citta and it does not always arise. But when there are conditions that favour its arising then this 11th citta arises along with vicikiccha cetasika and so it is called vicikiccha citta. This citta is rooted by moha hetu which is a cetasika. 11th citta only arises when searching for truth without realising anything related to truth but just causing exhaustion and tiredness. This citta arises when we think whether The Buddha exists or not, whether The Buddha knows everything or not, whether The Buddha is God or not, whether The Buddha is superhuman or not. This citta arises when we suspect the abilities and attributes of The Buddha, any of His Teachings or The Dhamma. This 11th citta arises when we suspect the validity of paticcasamuppada dhamma. Vicikiccha citta arises when we do not believe Noble Eight fold Path and existence of Nibbana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33939 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 035 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas in total in terms of characteristics. These citta have to arise in connection with other dhamma like cetasikas and rupa dhamma. There is no atta or life or being in ultimate sense but arising and falling away of these dhamma such as cittas, cetasikas, and rupas. At any given time, any moment there is at least a citta. This again will be one of 89 cittas. So far 11 cittas have been discussed in the previous posts. The 12th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is called as 'upekkha sahagatam uddhacca sampayutta citta'. Upekkha here is a kind of feeling and it has been explained in the thread ( 034 ). It is indifferent feeling. It is not happy state nor equally not sad state. Sahagatam means 'to go together'. So this 12th citta arises along with upekkha vedana or indifferent feeling. Uddhacca means 'unstable state' , 'upset state' , 'unstillness' , 'spreading' , 'wandering about' , 'disparsing' etc etc. Uddhacca is a cetasika and in this 12th citta uddhacca cetasika co-arises and so this citta is called as uddhacca citta. Sampayutta means 'to blend with' , 'to mix with' , 'in parallel with'. When we experience loss such as loss of close family members, close friends, relatives soon after we heard or we knew anything like that we start to grieve and sorrowful state arises. At that particular time, this 12th citta evidently arises and our mind will not stay still. Instead we may think one event after another in connection with the lost person. This is just an example and uddhacca citta can arise at any time when there is restlessness. The main cetasika in uddhacca citta is uddhacca cetasika causing citta to become restless. But uddhacca cetasika always arises with any of akusala citta. However, when other akusala cittas arise, other akusala cetasikas dominate and the work of uddhacca cetasika is not much evident as in case of this 12th citta. All lobha mula cittas or simply lobha cittas do have uddhacca cetasika as their accompaniment. All dosa mula cittas or simply dosa cittas do have uddhacca cetasika as their accompaniment. The 11th citta or vicikiccha citta does have uddhacca cetasika as its accompaniment. But in these 11 cittas which have been explained in the previous posts, the work of uddhacca cetasika is not much evident as in case of uddhacca citta or 12th citta of 89 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33940 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) Hello Sarah, all, Thank you for the assistance with the sutta refs. The first one remained a mystery though, until Steve's post arrived. Regarding the cockatoos. Your 'intention' was to prevent what you considered stealing of chicks from their parents. I wonder under what circumstances taking babies from a nest isn't 'taking what is not given'? [I mean, I know there are times in every mother's life when she might fleetingly consider giving the occasional child away-usually between the ages of two and three years with humans. :-).] Maybe if the parent bird was dead, and the intention was to care for the little ones? Or if the 'takers' were government officials responsible for relocating them? Did John give his reasons why he felt there was the possibility it wasn't stealing? Glad to hear the croc was caught. Where is he now? And, tell me, Sarah ... did the snake 'gulp'like the one in Sri Lanka when you were diligently sitting in meditation? :-) :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Chris, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah and > all, > > > > I may be particularly tired tonight, but I am having trouble with > > locating and reading these references from the Jhana posts by BB. > ... > S: Not easy I agree;-) > ... > > SN II 18, 115; > ... > S: I think this is p694ff (18:1) but not positive- the 115 might be wrong? > .... > SN III 163-64; > ... > S: p.967-8 (22:115) A Speaker on the Dhamma > .... > and SN IV 141; > .... > S: p. 1216 (35:155) A Speaker on the Dhamma (!) > ... > > Do they refer to the Samyutta Nikaya? If so, can anyone tell me the > > page numbers in The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Bhikkhu > > Bodhi) please? > ... > S: He's looking at the pali and using the pali references I think. > > Looking forward to your comments on the extracts to date, Chris!! > > this is v.rushed -On the never ending snake thread we seem to have, I'll > have to tell you later about the 6' brown snake on snake path that dropped > from a tree at our sides while Jon and I were discussing whether my > actions were right/wrong earlier in the day when I had tried without > success to stop two men 'stealing'* baby silver-crested cockatoos from a > nest.....oh, and the crocodile in Hong Kong has been caught nearly a year > later by a fisherman with the simplest net.... > > Metta, > > Sarah > *Jon says it may not even be stealing and my intervention was most > unwise.... > ========== 33941 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:13am Subject: Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) Hello Steve, Thank you for your post. The page numbers exactly match mine. A few other things were different, e.g. "SNII 18: Nidaanavagga, Nidaanasamyutta,Sutta16, A Speaker on the Dhamma (p545)" .. in my texts it is SN II 12 not 18. SN II 18 is the Raahulasamyutta. I may need to call on you and Sarah again if I have trouble with finding further references.:-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Chris > As far as i can figure, the sutta ref's are based on the PTS > verse numbering system, which as Sarah mentioned is most likely a > standard Pali ref. system. In BB. Samyutta translation you can find > these ref. numbers scattered throughout the text in square brackets, > e.g. [164]. The III refers to the book number. I find the easiest way > to locate a ref. using this system is with the CSCD. On the bottom > right hand corner there is a list of scripts and ref. numbers, go > to 'Roman' and scroll down till you get to the verse number your > looking for. > > The translation i have is in 1 volume so these page numbers may be > different to yours. > > SNII 18: Nidaanavagga, Nidaanasamyutta,Sutta16, A Speaker on the > Dhamma (p545) > SNII 115: Nidaanavagga, Nidaanasamyutta Sutta 67, The Sheaves of > Reeds (p607) > SNIII 163-4: Khandhavagga, Khandhasamyutta,Sutta115-116, A Speaker on > the Dhamma (966) > SNIV 141: Salayatanasamyutta, Salayatanavagga Sutta155, A Speaker on > the Dhamma (p 1216) 33942 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:47am Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa. Hi Tzung Kuen, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Rob and Sarah > > > > Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of > > Abhidhamma > > > > lecture notes written by U Silananda > > I'm interesting in the notes. > What are the notes of Ven U Silananda Sayadaw about? Abhidhammatthasangaha ? > Could we find the notes on the internet? If not, how to get them? Could one learn it by himself relying only on the notes? > Actually, 4 years ago, when I visited Chanmyay Yeiktha in Yangon, a kind lady who learned Abhidhamma from Ven U Silananda Sayadaw gave me some audio tapes and notes, but the tpaes' quality seems to be not so good, the voice is very low. Are there any good- quality tapes or MP3 available of Sayadaw's lectures on Abhidhamma? These are lecture notes. 150 pages dated November 2000. If you already know the Abhidhammattha Sangha, then you can pick up some additional subtle points by studying these notes. They are definitely not for self study to learn Abhidhamma. If you want me to send you a copy, please forward your snail mail address to my email. Metta, Rob M :-) 33943 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:44am Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (4) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry (2) While the process of "entering the stream" involves both faith and wisdom, individuals differ in their disposition with respect to these two qualities: some are disposed to faith, others to wisdom. This difference is reflected in the division of potential stream-enterers into two types, known as the saddhaanusaarii or faith-follower and the dhammaanusaarii or Dhamma-follower. Both have entered "the fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyaama), the irreversible path to stream-entry, by attuning their understanding of actuality to the nature of actuality itself, and thus for both insight is the key to entering upon the path. The two types differ, however, in the means by which they generate insight. The faith-follower, as the term implies, does so with faith as the driving force; inspired by faith, he resolves on the ultimate truth and thereby gains the path. The Dhamma-follower is driven by an urge to fathom the true nature of actuality; inspired by this urge, he investigates the teaching and gains the path. When they have known and seen the truth of the Dhamma, they realize the fruit of stream-entry. Perhaps the most informative source on the difference between these two types is the Okkantika-sa.myutta, where the Buddha shows how they enter upon the fixed course of rightness: "Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. So too the ear ... nose ... tongue ... body ... mind. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower: he is one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of the superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the sphere of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One for whom these teachings are accepted thus to a sufficient degree by being pondered with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower: he is one who has entered the fixed course of rightness ... (he is) incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."[9] It is noteworthy that this passage makes no mention of jhaana. While prior experience of jhaana would no doubt help to make the mind a more fit instrument for insight, it is surely significant that jhaana is not mentioned either as an accompaniment of the "entry upon the fixed course of rightness" or as a prerequisite for it. ****** Notes 9. Cakkhu.m bhikkhave anicca.m vipari.naami.m a––athaabhaavi. Sotam ... mano anicco vipari.naamii a––athaabhaavii. Yo bhikkhave ime dhamme eva.m saddahati adhimuccati, aya.m vuccati saddhaanusaarii okkanto sammattaniyaama.m sappurisabhuumi.m okkanto viitivatto puthujjanabhuumi.m. Abhabbo ta.m kamma.m kaatu.m ya.m kamma.m katvaa niraya.m vaa tiracchaanayoni.m vaa pettivisaya.m vaa uppajjeyya. Abhabbo ca taava kaala.m kaatu.m yaava na sotaapattiphala.m sacchikaroti. Yassa kho bhikkhave ime dhammaa eva.m pa––aaya mattaso nijjhaana.m khamanti, aya.m vuccati dhammaanusaarii okkanto sammattaniyaama.m ... Abhabbo ca taava kaala.m kaatu.m yaava na sotaapattiphala.m sacchikaroti. Yo bhikkhave ime dhamme eva.m jaanaati eva.m passati, aya.m vuccati sotaapanno avinipaatadhammo niyato sambodhiparaayano. 33944 From: Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi, Rob - In a message dated 6/17/04 2:53:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > >S: ;-) One way, one path - that of satipatthana. A moment of right > >awareness and understanding now of a reality appearing is the > >practice in accord with the Dhamma. No self at all. > > If no one is doing anything, why is it called "practice?" Isn't this > kind of misleading?? > > ============================= Well, in reality no one *is* doing anything, at any time. What is happening is that insights (clear seeings) into what arises occur in response to prior and concurrent conditions, critical among which are occurrences of (usefully oriented) cetana. One much further along than you, and I, and Sarah might directly see this as I have described it and as Sarah described it. But though we may have an inkling (of direct realization) that this is how it is, and though we may have a firm intellectual conviction that this is how it is, this is not entirely how it *seems* to us, and it is not the usual, conventional way of describing the process. It makes perfectly good sense to me to use the conventional speech that the Buddha used, and to say that to practice is to "do something" - to direct the mind in certain ways. Moreover, for people at our stage, to stray too far from conventional formulations, to speak *too* impersonally when our direct understanding isn't there yet carries with it the danger of our not doing what needs to be done. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. One more point that I have missed in the foregoing: I do *not* think that a moment of arising of insight is what should be construed as "practice". I think that should be construed as the *fruit* of practice. It is the many moments of well directed cetana that contribute to those insights that constitute "practice" as I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33945 From: nidive Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:12am Subject: ¦^ÂСG?^???GRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > The critierias showed in the Nikayas themselves for > 'ubhatobhagavimutta' seem to be varied. I believe that the one given in DN 15 is the "official version". All the rupa and arupa jhanas are just mundane jhanas. There is nothing special about them. Only the "cessation of perception & feeling" is peculiar to the dispensation of the Blessed One. In fact, he performed this forward and reverse order of the eight vimokkhas on his death bed. > In Kitagirisutta (M 1 477,PTS), an arahant who has arupa jhanas > is said to be 'ubhatobhagavimutta'. I think Kitagirisutta said "arupa vimokkhas" and not "arupa jhanas". Arupa vimokkhas include the four arupa jhanas and the "cessation of perception & feeling". It is to my understanding that the Buddha did not qualify if by "arupa vimokkhas", he allows the possibility of PARTIAL "arupa vimokkhas". Without such a qualification, FULL "arupa vimokkhas" should be inferred. This would then be in line with DN 15. > It seems that in A 4 452-53 even an ariya who has only 1st jhana > can be a ubhatobhagavimutta. I am not sure about this sutta. I don't think I have read it before. But I suspect the Ubhatobhaga Sutta from the Book of Nines would probably be very similar. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-045.html [Udayin:] "'Released both ways, released both ways,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released both ways?" [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released both ways. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released both ways. "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released both ways." --------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the very important phrases here are "in a sequential way" and "in a non-sequential way". The four rupa & arupa jhanas are described as "in a sequential way". I take this to mean that for an arahant to be released both ways, the arahant needs to proceed in a sequential manner from the first jhana to the cessation of perception & feeling. This would then be in line with DN 15. > According to Vism, and other Pali commentaries, the criteria for > this is arupajjhana, an arahant who has any of the arupajjanas > can be said to be ubhatobhagavimutta. I don't take the VM & commentaries as canonical references. They could be wrong. Regards, Swee Boon 33946 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:26am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 4. Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 4. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand the meaning of anattå, non-self, in our daily life. The wrong view of self gives rise to many other defilements, it causes sorrow. So long as wrong view is not eradicated, the other defilements cannot be eradicated. Acharn Sujin said: ³Do not forget anattå. At this moment there is nobody. We have heard the word anattå and now it is time to know that this very moment is anattå. The dhamma that appears does not belong to anyone, it arises because of conditions. If it had not arisen it could not appear and be known. It falls away instantly. ³ She explained that one may go to another place and try very hard to develop understanding, but that it is essential to understand the dhamma appearing at this very moment. We may think about the names of realities, but this is different from ³studying² with awareness, ³studying² the characteristic of the dhamma that appears without the need of words. However, the notion of self is likely to occur after a moment of awareness. Acharn Sujin said: ³A moment of kusala citta with sati is very short and lobha follows instantly. Lobha does not let go of the object. If we do not understand that lobha is the second noble Truth, the origination of dukkha, it is impossible to eliminate lobha. Lobha is our teacher and follower, it never goes away. Paññå can realize the characteristic of lobha when it appears. It realizes that each reality has its own characteristic and that it is conditioned.² We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Ch 5, § 150, Resident Pupil) that the Buddha said to the monks: Without a resident pupil, and without a teacher this righteous life is lived. A monk who dwells with a resident pupil or dwells with a teacher dwells woefully, dwells not at ease. And how, monks, does a monk who has a resident pupil, who has a teacher, not dwell at ease? Herein, monks, in a monk who sees visible object with the eye, there arise in him evil, unprofitable states, memories and aspirations connected with the fetters. Evil, unprofitable states are resident, reside in him. Hence he is called ³co-resident². They beset him, those evil, unprofitable states beset him. Therefore is he called ³dwelling with a teacher². So also with the ear...the tongue...the mind... The opposite is true for him who is without a resident pupil and without a teacher. When a monk had a pupil he would be his co-resident, he would live with him all the time. Lobha and the other defilements are like a resident pupil one lives with continuously, or they are like a teacher who tells one to act in the wrong way. This sutta points to the development of satipatthåna, reminding us not to be neglectful, but to develop right understanding when visible object, sound and the other objects that present themselves through the six doorways. ***** Nina. 33947 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry, op 17-06-2004 01:05 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result > (see Pm.463)." > This is interesting. Could you expand on it a little? N:Yes, I will soon. See my oncoming Tiika Translation. But I can now expand a little, where the Tiika is in brief. Kusala, in the sense of in good health. aarogya: health. Roga is disease. Akusala is like a mental disease, there is malfunctioning, everything is out of balance. Kusala, as we read in the Expositor and in the Tiika, can have the meaning of free from ailment, of good health. Also the cetasikas accompanying kusala citta are healthy as the Tiika states. The Tiika mentions (but does not elaborate) the meritorious deeds, pu~n~nakiriya vatthu, and in the same sentence: the faculties (indriyas) of confidence etc. (it does not elaborate here) which are helpful so that kusala makes and end to and destroys what is contemptible. All ten meritorious deeds, that can also be classified as dana, sila and mental development, are important. Knowing more details of them makes us see the benefit of kusala and this is a condition for the arising of kusala citta more often. More medicine for our health! For example, we may overlook the fact that appreciating someone else's kusala is an opportunity for dana, anumodana dana. It can be very simple, for example you notice a good deed of your neighbour or of someone in the street. An occasion for kusala citta, right at your doorstep, you do not have to go far away. Sati is heedful, it sees to it that such opportunities are not overlooked. Kusala is not Buddhist, kusala is kusala, that is its characteristic. This is a way to understand what a paramattha dhamma is. Appreciation of someone's kusala can be expressed by speech or gesture, or it can just be by thinking. We should not underestimate such seemingly unimportant moments. We have too many akusala cittas, but kusala citta can be accumulated little by little. Straightening one's views, one of the ten meritorious deeds, can go together with all kinds of kusala: kusala is not ours, it is the citta and cetasikas that are of good health. We have to remember that there is no doer at all. As to the indriyas, there are five that should be developed: confidence, energy or courage (viriya), mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Confidence: in the Triple Gem and in the Path. Without confidence we would not develop the Path. As understanding develops confidence becomes stronger. The indriyas should be developed together so that they become firm and steadfast. Nina. 33948 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:26am Subject: Intro to Vis. 82 My Intro to Vis. 82.: The goal of our study of vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, the khandha of consciousness, should be the understanidng of citta as non-self, anatta. As the Visuddhimagga states: The Tiika comments: < ...there truly is no one at all who is a doer, and thus, he said ³it cognizes², in order to explain merely the nature of an action.> We read in the Atthasaalinii (Expositor I, p. 148, 149) a definition of citta: <[Mind or] consciousness is that which thinks of an object... As to its characteristics, etc., cognizing object is its characteristic, forerunning is its function, connecting is its manifestation, a mental and material organism [naama-ruupa) is its proximate cause. > The Atthasaalinii then explains: Citta is the chief or principal in cognizing an object such as visible object, sound, and so on. The accompanying cetasikas that each perform their own function assist the citta in cognizing an object, but citta is the principal. Connection is the manifestation of citta. The Atthasaalinii states: In our life from birth to death there is an uninterrupted series of cittas arising and falling away in succession. It was like this in past lives and it will be so in future lives. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death the uninterrupted stream of cittas is without end. As to the proximate cause of citta, in the planes where there are five khandhas, nama and rupa, cetasikas and rupa are the proximate cause (immediate occasion) of citta. Citta cannot arise without cetasikas and without rupa. It needs a physical base and other rupas that condition it. In the arupa-brahma planes citta arises without rupa, there are only four khandhas in those planes. In the following paragraphs of the Visuddhimagga we shall study all the different types of citta that are accompanied by various types of cetasikas and are of different planes of citta. Thus we shall see that citta is conditioned in many ways.Each citta arises because of its own conditions and there is no self who can cause its arising. The Visuddhimagga states that citta is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) kusala, profitable, (II)akusala, unprofitable, and (III) avyaakata, indeterminate, neither kusala nor akusala. Before the Tiika elaborates on these three aspects we are reminded of the truth that **** Nina. 33949 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:12am Subject: Dhammarammana , object of mind Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhammarammana or object of mind have been started in the pages of 'Patthana Dhamma'. The page 39 can be viewed at the following link. http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana39.html . The introductory page of patthana dhamma is linked in that page and the full tour can be taken by clicking that link. Page 40 is being under developing. 7 rupas serve as objects for 5 cittas. Vanna or colour serves as ruparammana for cakkhuvinnana citta. Sadda or sound serves as saddarammana for sotavinnana citta. Gandha or smell serves as gandharammana for ghanavinnana citta. Rasa or taste serves as rasarammana for jivhavinnana citta. These 4 paramattha rupas serves as 4 separate arammana for 4 separate pancavinana cittas. Pathavi, tejo, and vayo of 4 mahabhuta rupas serve as photthabbarammana for kayavinnana cittas. So 7 rupas serve as arammana for 5 cittas which are nama dhamma. Moreover, these 7 rupas also serve as arammana for 3 mano dhatu namely pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana citata. In page 39, dhammarammana have been started. 5 pasada rupas cannot be object of pancavinana cittas and they cannot serve as object for mano dhatu. So they become object of mind and they are dhammarammana. By the same token 16 sukhuma rupas cannot be object of pancavinnana cittas and they are not the object of 3 mano dhatu. So they are also object manovinnana dhatu and they are object of mind or dhammarammana. The details are discussed in the page 39 of 'Patthana Dhamma' linked above. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... Yahoo! Mobile - Download the latest ringtones, games, and more! 33950 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:18am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? - Extremely Long and Contentious Dear Ken and others here: This is a very long post, and I thank anyone in advance who actually troubles themselves to read the whole thing. It is also quite strong, and as usual, I apologize but do not retract, because I think it's important to have a vibrant challenge to accepted ideas. Certainly I get my own ideas greatly challenged around here, and I learn from it. For anyone who is offended by such a challenge, I invite you in advance to ignore this post and not engage with what may be a troubling interloper in this nice group. I have great affection for the people here, and consider all of you friendly acquaintances or friends. When it comes to debating the Dhamma and the Abhidhamma my tone can get quite harsh, as exhibited below. I hope you realize that this is in my attempt thrash out the truth of the Dhamma, and when doing so I cannot try to protect my own or other's personal feelings. But the feelings of affection are still there. Again, apologies for being perhaps upsetting, and best wishes to all in the pursuit of truth. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > I have just read Sukin's reply (thanks for bringing him back) and I > want to repeat something he said: "I believe that if you started to > look at the Teachings more from the perspective of the present > moment, away from any previous tendency to think in terms of > situations and `things to do', that you will appreciate more what > Nina and others have been saying." > > I don't want to speak too soon, but I suspect you are coming around > to this "present moment" perspective. Be careful, there is no > turning back! :-) Hi Ken. I'm fishing around and haven't yet found Sukin's post, but I'll keep looking. : ) I think it's a mistake to assume that I don't have a "present-moment perspective" just because I have the sad fate to support something that is out of favor around here. I agree with Abhidhamma as far as this goes that the present moment is the only time in which events take place, or that any practice for that matter, were one to engage in such a thing, would be engaged with. I know this will come as a bit of a shock (please forgive mild sarcasm) but meditation too takes place in the moment! In fact, taking the moment-to-moment perspective is exactly what meditation is designed to do, just as Abhidhamma is designed to guide one gently, and without ever asserting a self that is being so guided, into the present-moment perspective. As I think Sarah recently said, or at least something to this effect, if we did not believe that the guidance of the Buddha would lead us to enlightenment, we would not engage with the Buddhist path at all. And is our faith and trust in the Buddha and the path he lays out that leads us to engage with the Buddhist path and take the perspective of the Buddhist path. Now, this is me speaking: This is a goal orientation. It is *not* just focussed on the present moment; it is conceptual and faith-based and headed towards the future. Of course we continually re-group and take our understanding and point it towards the present moment. Having understood the Buddha's instructions as best we can, we "hope" [do we not?] to have our conscoiusness directed towards the reality of the present moment and to understand in the moment the true reality of the moment, the true relationship of self to the moment, the momentary arising nature of namas and rupas with the accumulations that the citta of the moment carries and how all of the conditions attendant upon the arising of the moment and the understanding that the citta has in that moment, either tends towards satipatthana or further delusion. But even the language of Abhidhamma admits of accumulations, of collected insight and understanding, or akusala false insight and misunderstanding, are carried down and handed off by cetasikas from one citta to another. This is necessary of course, because if things just stayed exactly as they are right now, we'd all be deluded permanently! So we may want to direct citta towards the present moment, or hope that it will be so directed, but we also understand that a deluded moment arises, another deluded moment arises, then perhaps a semi-awake moment peeks through, and so on. There are moments in a chain, and they affect one another and gradually head in a direction. So even Abhidhamma I think has to talk about what is going to happen in the future. Then with understanding, hopefully the mind turns towards the reality of those conceptual moments as they arise as well as the moments in which we are in direct contact with a non-conceptual object and perhaps can get a glimpse of how reality is put together in the moment and then disappears into the next. Meditation is nothing other than one way, a significant one given deference by the Buddha in which one allows this to happen. I contend again that it can be done with hope of making something happen or with the idea that this is a right practice that is done to allow kusala cittas to arise, but every moment is taken in its own right for whatever it may contain. Just as a beginner at sutta reading may give a sutta a quick read and say "But how is this going to enlighten me?," a beginner meditator may say "I'm going to enlighten myself by sitting like this" and think he can control the process. But the reason we read the suttas and the reason we meditate is because we believe these to be activities that the Buddha recommended for being on the Buddhist path. No one would deny that they are trying to follow the Buddha's recommendations despite the fact that they are asserting that there is on one to do anything at all. We have to live with these contradictions in provisional reality as we look at the moment and take the lovely "perspective of the moment" which we are all "advanced" enough to agree is the only useful perspective. If I were to really take seriously the assertion that we should not engage in any kind of practice in order to follow the path, because doing so would assert a self to be enlightened in some future moment, then I would expect everyone on this list to forsake the teachings and go flip hamburgers or wash cars somewhere and forget about the Dhamma altogether. Because everytime you think to yourself "I am studying the Abhidhamma to understand the path, and that will create conditions that will lead to other conditions that will allow the Noble Eightfold Path to ignite and in one of these lifetimes I will become enlightened" you assert a self that is going to be enlightened some day. If you did not believe that some citta some day is going to experience Nibbana directly, freeing this heap of kandhas to become a non-returner and reach final peace from samsara, you would not be reading suttas or studying the Abhidhamma. And I conted that it is perfectly fine to engage in meditation for the same purpose as long as you understand the principles that need to be kept in mind and do not feel that you are going to get yourself there by doing some practice. Either give up every activity that asserts any sense of future attainment, or allow them all, and then we are left with a different discussion: what activities are kusala and which are not, which is what I think really underlies this whole distinction between Abhidhamma and meditation. If the idea of self happens to arise while reading a sutta, you, I take it, are confident that this will not stop the eventual accumulated kusala effects of reading the sutta. If someone reads the sutta with the idea that they are engaged in a kusala activity [ = practice ] that will lead to satipatthana somewhere down the road, however indirect, you will allow them to make this mistake and keep on reading, because you believe that studying the sutta is ultimately kusala in its own right. Sure, someone can ruin it by misunderstanding the teachings and using their sutta study to keep asserting more and more sense of self, but you still think that on the whole this is a good activity and it is what the Buddha said we should be doing, so it is fine. But when it comes to meditation, which the Buddha mentioned quite frequently in the very same canon, you call it "formal practice" an disallow that it can lead to kusala accumulations. No, instead it is *going* to assert a self doing something, whereas sutta study will not. I still cannot find an explanation for why this terrible tragedy automatically occurs when someone sits on a mat or even perhaps a chair to follow the breath or attend to the moment with awareness, but if one diligently studies the suttas with the hope of enlightenment, this is just fine, and is not a "formal practice" with the same deadly results. I don't get it. What I do get, and really appreciate Sarah's input on this, is that whatever you are doing, there is no correct view that is correct in and of itself, that the way that view is being held can be kusala or akusala, that the view itself can be kusala or akusala, and that this can change from moment to moment. So there are correct and incorrect views, but in terms of guarding oneself from akusala moments, there is really nothing to hold onto. We just can't do it and it's another occasion to let go of the sense that there is someone in the driver's seat who can make good things happen or avoid bad ones. There is only the arising citta and another chance to be aware of what is taking place. > ------------------------ > REp: > If you want to assert that meditation is not a form of > practice according to the Dhamma, then you have to provide evidence > from the record of the Dhamma, > [[sneaky correction of Sanskrit to Pali]] > ---------------------- > > I think perhaps the suttas deal with formal practice under the > heading of `wrong views.' After all, formal practice does betray > the belief, "By means of self, I shall see that which is not self." > This belief forms part of the "All Embracing Net of Views." As much as I respect your opinion, Ken, i need something more substantial to believe that meditation is under the heading of wrong views. With respect, that is what the debate is about. you cannot win the debate by re-asserting your view without any new evidence. Where in the body of the Dhamma does it say that meditation is under the heading of wrong views? Am I merely to take your word for it and give up the fight? To my mind, anyone can say "By means of self, I shall see that which is not self" via sutta study, com study or any other activity that dsg'ers happily engage in. You need to look at your own predispositions as well as mine if you want a completely honest look at this terrible situation. I am coming to the conclusion that every wonderful kusala activity has the potential to become a "formal practice" and express wrong view. So I guess it has to do with what view we are holding, not what activity we are doing. Do you disagree with this? Or are you saying that com study is immune from the development of such a view? Perhaps if you do think that, it would make com study all the more pernicious as wrong view will be sure to creep in when you least expect it. > ------------------------ > REp: > or provide a logical argument that this is so. > > ------------------------- > > Logical arguments such as those provided, incessantly, on dsg? :-) > > ------------------------ they haven't been working for me, because there's a missing link in the logic. I want to know why some activities seem to be immune from turning into "formal practice" even though they are prescribed repeated activities, and meditation has no such immunity. where's the logic in that?? . . . > REp: > we have to have some basis to discuss it that we > have in common. > > ------------- > > Agreed. As you say, there is no point in relying on personal > affidavits: we need an interpretation of the Dhamma (including `Path > Factors' and `factors for enlightenment') that is consistent with > the entire Tipitaka. > > -------------- How about something that is actually said in the suttas for a good start? Interpretations are perilous. I know there is a tendency to distrust the obvious bald meaning of what the Buddha actually says, but that is where I would go to find out what in fact he said! If we have to have a convoluted explanation that has little to do with Buddha's actual words via a variety of complex interpretations, so be it. Lay it on me, and I'll assess it in light of the Dhamma as I know it. Perhaps my ignorance will be helpful in giving a direct view of whether something makes sense or not. So: what is the Abhidhamma interpretation of something the Buddha said that leads directly to the conclusion that breathing meditation is a "formal practice" that should be filed under "wrong view." I await your report with great anticipation. 1/ Quote from Sutta 2/ Com'y on same Sutta by Abhidhamma commentator. 3/ Your interpretation and conclusion regarding meditation as akusala "formal practice." Three easy steps. I have already presented my evidence, which is the Buddha's own words about the practice of breathing meditation as a means to fully understand the four foundations of mindfulness, as stated in the anapanasati sutta and I think satipatthana sutta. I will be happy to examine these with you [again] if you would like. But in the meantime I would like to get the sequence above organized so I can have a crystal clear understanding of how Abhidhamma has concluded that meditation is a "formal practice" that is guided by "wrong view" and should not be engaged with, even though Buddha says you should or at least can engage with it and come to full understanding of the four foundations of mindfulness. Please, please give me the relevant suttas and com'ys that I should be studying so that I can understand this complex teaching. And please don't say "the whole Tipitaka and body of commentary" because that would be too difficult for me to sift through. I need one or two specific references that make your case. I'm sure that Sukin or others may be able to help in this effort. > . . . > REp: > Ken has provided a logical argument against meditation, but > it seems more about the idea of practice than about the practice > itself, that the idea of practice necessarily invokes the ego. > > ---------------------------- > > Yes, because it is not the actual formal practice that prevents > satipatthana. It is the wrong view of the person who would engage in > formal practise. > > -------------------------- Okay, I think I've asked this before but haven't had it answered: What about someone who engages in meditation [not as "formal practice" but as something that the Buddha mentioned as a setting for the development of satipatthana, or even just does it just to do it] with Right View? Is this impossible in your view? Is meditation the evil activity that prevents Right View from arising? If so how does it do it, even if the person involved has Right View? If you say that no one with Right View would do such a practice, then you have a circular argument, by the way, which is useless to reach a valid conclusion. > REp: > This seems like an important but tangential argument > that applies equally to anything that humans do, including all the > things that are auspicious for reaching enlightenment. > > ---------------------------- > > Yes, but does the reverse apply: would a person who has no wrong > view (not even subtle wrong view) associate with wise friends, > listen to the Dhamma and wisely consider the Dhamma? I'm sure he > would, but I don't think he would engage in formal, conventional, > vipassana meditation. well that's a prejudice on your part. why wouldn't he? You don't seem to have a reason except your own intuition as to why someone with Right View would engage in the above three but not formal meditation. By the way, the "formal" you keep applying is like a dirty word for Abhidhamma, and tends to prejudice the issue in advance. How about just saying meditation. I don't know what you think formal means, but personally, I meditate when I feel like it and I do what feels right at the time, so it's not "formal" in any serious sense. I also understand that you can meditate while walking down the street but it feels right to do it sitting at times. So how about just "meditation." If it's not particularly formal, does that save the day? Or are you just prejudiced against all meditation plain and simple? And getting back to your statement, what basis do you have for saying that someone with Right View "you don't think" would practice meditation? What's the basis for saying this? You can't just say it; there's got to be a reason. > ---------------------------- > REp: > over the months or years that these issues have come up, I > have heard that breathing was used as a descriptive setting by the > Buddha in the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta because > those who Buddha addressed at that time happened to be versed in > breathing meditation, > > --------------------------- > > When the Buddha appeared in the world and proclaimed the Dhamma, > everything changed: the doctrine of anatta rendered all conventional > knowledge obsolete and unworkable in the ultimate sense. So the > Buddha travelled throughout the country, demonstrating how his way > of understanding applied to the various daily-life activities that > people were engaged in. > > The best-known example is, `how does one practise mindfulness of > breathing in accordance with the Dhamma' but I imagine there were > innumerable other instances. For example, in the `Discourse to > Sigala' we learn about the custom of worshipping the six quarters; > East, South, West, North, the nadir and the zenith. The motive was > to gain the goodwill of every possible god and deva. When the > Buddha met a young man who was engaged in this practice, he > explained how a noble disciple would observe the six quarters. > But, importantly, he never said that it was a mindfulness practice or that it would in itself lead to satipatthana. When the Buddha makes a direct specific statement like "how does one practice mindfulness of breathing in accordance with the Dhamma" we ought to pay attention, not lump it together with every different type of comment he made about everything else, just because we may not like the idea. Buddha spent a whole sutta talking about mindfulness of the breathing. Mindfulness is a Buddhist idea, it is the Buddha's seminal distinction in terms of how the mind is used to develop satipatthana and panna. And he, not I, puts that in the context of the breath in at least two important suttas that are focussed specifically on the development of mindfulness. Yet you not only want to dismiss this out of hand, but claim that someone who was in line with the Dhamma would never practice such a thing!! Aren't you afraid that baldly contradicting the Buddha's words may in fact be heretical? We don't get to choose or interpret away what the Buddha actually said. We need to take it into account and pay it due deference. Dismissing the setting in which Buddha made specific pronouncements and recommendations to make our own point out of it and abtract it away and in fact say that Buddha wanted us to do the opposite of what he said, is not in accord with the Dhamma. It can't be. You cannot provide your own commentary in place of the Buddha's words and contradict the obvious meaning, call what he invoked "wrong view" and think you are following the Dhamma. Buddha did not say "Do not practice mindfulness of the breathing as a way of practicing satipatthana because this would be an expression of Wrong View." He said "[here is how] one practice mindfulness of breathing in accordance with the Dhamma." Whether you like or not, the above statement means that there is a way of practicing mindfulness of the breathing in accordance with the Dhamma, and that it is a way to practice that is in line with the Dhamma, the opposite of what you are claiming. So, resolve the contradiction for me. Please. Call upon the writers of the com'ys if you like. I want to hear how what the Buddha said about "practicing mindfulness of the breathing in accordance of the Dhamma" was not what he actually meant and that the Buddha was wrong when he said that. He misspoke, I guess, and meant something the exact opposite of what he said. You know better. Let me in on the special knowledge you have that allows you to contradict the Buddha's own words. > ---------------------------- > . . . > REp: > I have asked how then is this a practice in any sense of > the word, > -------------------------- > > Admittedly, satipatthana is not a practice in the conventional sense > of the word. So the word is ludicrous, shouldn't have been used. Again the Buddha is wrong. Another mistake on the part of the Buddha. Unlike (for example) piano practice, it bears no > outward signs that would distinguish it from other aspects of daily > life. Provided panna has been developed, satipatthana can occur > during any activity. So, there cannot be a conventional practice of > satipatthana. So, as I have been saying, according to you -- and I realize you speak for the community of Abhidhamma and not just for yourself -- "practice" does not mean practice; it means the opposite, something that is not practiced but happens by itself. The Buddha was terrible with language and kept using words that meant the opposite of what he said. He was I guess sort of clumsy with language, and we have to figure out what he really meant which often turns out to be the opposite. The Nobel Eightfold Path, which the Buddha explains in detal how to follow in daily life, is not something to be engaged with. It's not actually a path, it's something that happens to you all of a sudden all at once when right conditions are met. The instructions for following the Eight areas of the path are for lesser beings who can't understand the Noble path that just happens, even though Buddha never says this anywhere. So really there is no Noble Eightfold Path; it's really the "Noble Eightfold Occurrence" which happens by itself. It seems to me that everything is turned on its head, and that the Buddha's words are not being attended. But I await the opportunity to be corrected by specific arguments that make sense. Best, Robert Ep. 33951 From: Klimov, Yulia Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 0:04pm Subject: question on observation Dear friends, I would like to ask you a question. I am part of this group for over 2 years. And over this time I always read this beautiful postings about Abhidhamma interpretation and attaining jhanas. And somehow I feel that this is not really right, that all this is really intellectual work, this is not what is dhamma about. May be I am wrong? I wonder who of you personally getting there physically and life-wise? When I was small, my father took me to russian city Chita, close to it was a small buddhist temple with mongolian monks. And the guy there told my father "not good" when he told him he works intellectually - he is theoretical scientist. And he said - living is learning, not thinking. Back then my Dad explained to me that means that you have to practice not with your head, but with all of your life. Please, pardon for my bad English. I am from Russia and simple people in villages who are really connected to the nature, they seem more Buddhist to me then the last teacher I went to listen in our bookstore. I am totally cool with any teacher, but later when I talk to someone and getting talks about scriptures and norvana and Buddha, i wonder, may be this is modern trend? There are so many people in Florida where I am now, so educated on subject, who read so much, who has yoga certificates and who is really full of advices on the subject. And they meditate and they really trying to live their lives by scirptures. And I never met anyone really happy. May be I am a bit wrong, from what I learn in Buddhism (and I am just curios scolar, not practicioner), this is study of yourself which leads us to see ourselves are not ourselves. And this is not really about achieving your own liberation. And this is where it is getting confused to me, because everything is about this particular person, his openion, his way to meditate and right piece of scripture he read. I am sorry for confusing post :). But please, share with me, if you are trully somewhere close there. Thank you for your time. Yulia 33952 From: huajun_tang Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:06pm Subject: Re: question on observation Dear Yulia, A right practice should lead to the growth of the five jhana factors, no matter one practises concentration or insight. If not so, one has to check to see if one's methods of practice are correct. Happiness is one of the five jhana factors. Right practice leads to the growth of mindfulness as well. Strong mindfulness is the most important support for observation of precepts. When one's mindfulness is strong, the observaton of precepts becomes more natural than forced, one get less or no internal mental confliction. For example, one time I took a walk just after meditation on mindfulness of breath. I passed by a sexy yang lady and the figure of her body started to disturb my mind and body, then I just shifted my attention to my breath and kept it on my breath. In this way my mind remained in a peaceful and happy state. But at other times when I do not have such strong mindfulness, even if I force myself to turn away from the objects that arouse lust, I can not get rid of the images in the mind. In such a case, there is more or less mental conflicts. When one has more and deeper practice, one may find that Abhiddhamma is more helpful. But at the beginning, one should first find some methods that can be effectively used in real practice. I personally prefer the teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw. With metta, Huajun --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Klimov, Yulia" wrote: > Dear friends, > I would like to ask you a question. I am part of this group for over 2 > years. And over this time I always read this beautiful postings about > Abhidhamma interpretation and attaining jhanas. And somehow I feel that this > is not really right, that all this is really intellectual work, this is not > what is dhamma about. May be I am wrong? > I wonder who of you personally getting there physically and life- wise? > > When I was small, my father took me to russian city Chita, close to it was a > small buddhist temple with mongolian monks. And the guy there told my father > "not good" when he told him he works intellectually - he is theoretical > scientist. And he said - living is learning, not thinking. Back then my Dad > explained to me that means that you have to practice not with your head, but > with all of your life. Please, pardon for my bad English. > I am from Russia and simple people in villages who are really connected to > the nature, they seem more Buddhist to me then the last teacher I went to > listen in our bookstore. I am totally cool with any teacher, but later when > I talk to someone and getting talks about scriptures and norvana and Buddha, > i wonder, may be this is modern trend? > > There are so many people in Florida where I am now, so educated on subject, > who read so much, who has yoga certificates and who is really full of > advices on the subject. And they meditate and they really trying to live > their lives by scirptures. And I never met anyone really happy. May be I am > a bit wrong, from what I learn in Buddhism (and I am just curios scolar, not > practicioner), this is study of yourself which leads us to see ourselves are > not ourselves. And this is not really about achieving your own liberation. > And this is where it is getting confused to me, because everything is about > this particular person, his openion, his way to meditate and right piece of > scripture he read. > > I am sorry for confusing post :). > But please, share with me, if you are trully somewhere close there. > > Thank you for your time. > Yulia 33953 From: bernard.vital Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) Please give me an answer What do I have to do.... Since 1994 (the first time I was in Thailand) i felt me there as at home. After a nine year relation wiht a man he broke up. I met a Vietnamese man than and since that moment I´m very interested in Buddhism, and I looked every where to become a monk. But it didn´t happen, because of my HIV+. After 4 monthe my Vietnamese friend leaves. And we are still godd friends but we didn´t have a relation. At that moment I was realy convinced to become a monk in Asia. Adn I ask a lot of information but than came Bernard, a Philoppino man, and I felt in love with him. We didn´t have sex but I loved him so much. And durting that relation of more than one year I read and studied a lot of buddhist text. And I thought I love hin so much and that is the reason I still stay here in Holland. But if he leaves me I go to Asia and become a monk. Some days ago he left me, because he want to built up a life in Manila. So now what decision do I have to take. Are alll these sings enough to decide to go to Asia and become a monk there? Or wha tmoere sings do there have to come? I know now that all relations will have suffering and pain as result. And I don´t want to astay alone in this world. Please help me... Mr. Vital E.H. Moors Westerbaenstraat 212 2513 GK Den Haag 070-3648843 bernard.vital@z... www.vitalmoors.nl ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- Van: "Sarah" Aan: Verzonden: donderdag 17 juni 2004 11:56 Onderwerp: Re: [dsg] Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) 33954 From: Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result (see Pm.463)." Hi Nina, What does Pm.463 say? Is it too long to translate? I'm surprised that "health" doesn't mean physical health. Does "pleasant result" mean whatever I do that makes myself or another experience pleasant feeling is kusala? Is pleasant feeling always kusala? What is blamelessness? Who blames? Who says what is blame-worthy? Larry 33955 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:45pm Subject: Relationships are Impermanent Hi Vital, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.vital" wrote: > Please give me an answer > What do I have to do.... > Since 1994 (the first time I was in Thailand) i felt me there as at home. > After a nine year relation wiht a man he broke up. I met a Vietnamese man > than and since that moment I´m very interested in Buddhism, and I looked > every where to become a monk. But it didn´t happen, because of my HIV+. > After 4 monthe my Vietnamese friend leaves. And we are still godd friends > but we didn´t have a relation. At that moment I was realy convinced to > become a monk in Asia. Adn I ask a lot of information but than came Bernard, > a Philoppino man, and I felt in love with him. We didn´t have sex but I > loved him so much. And durting that relation of more than one year I read > and studied a lot of buddhist text. And I thought I love hin so much and > that is the reason I still stay here in Holland. But if he leaves me I go to > Asia and become a monk. Some days ago he left me, because he want to built > up a life in Manila. So now what decision do I have to take. Are alll these > sings enough to decide to go to Asia and become a monk there? Or wha tmoere > sings do there have to come? I know now that all relations will have > suffering and pain as result. And I don´t want to astay alone in this world. > Please help me... I am not a counselor, but I can give you a bit of a Buddhist perspective. It seems that you are trying to hold onto something that doesn't have permanence. As you try to grab hold of the mirage, it is not there and this causes stress. The Buddha encouraged us to see past what is impermanent. It is analogous to a woman getting upset because she is starting to look older. She is stressed because she is trying to grasp and cling to youthful looks. In Buddhism, we have a practice called Metta meditation where we radiate loving kindness to all beings. The practice starts with radiating loving kindness to ourselves because without that foundation, how can we radiate to others? Being "in a relationship" or "out of a relationship" has nothing to do with your inherent worth as a person. Wholesome mental states such as generosity, self-discipline and mental cultivation are the foundation of a positive person and they are based on a foundation of confidence, mindfulness and conscience (among other factors). My advice to you is to go to work on the inner stuff first. Important decisions such as becoming a monk, entering into a relationship, committing oneself to a religion, etc. must be made at times of strength in your life. Again, I am not a counselor. If you feel that you really need somebody to help you walk you through your problems, then I suggest that you seek out somebody more qualified than I. Karuna, Rob M :-) 33956 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:33pm Subject: Re: question on observation Kag Dila Yulia, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Klimov, Yulia" wrote: > I would like to ask you a question. I am part of this group for over 2 > years. And over this time I always read this beautiful postings about > Abhidhamma interpretation and attaining jhanas. And somehow I feel that this > is not really right, that all this is really intellectual work, this is not > what is dhamma about. May be I am wrong? > I wonder who of you personally getting there physically and life- wise? ===== I understand your point. The two happiest people that I have ever met are both Buddhist monks and both are tireless propagators of the Dhamma. They are Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda and Ajahn Brahmavamso. Both of them do a lot of thinking. Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda (Chief Reverend) has written over one hundred books on Buddhism, mainly for lay people. I suggest that you read one or two of his books, many of which can be downloaded from: http://www.ksridhammananda.com/ Ajahn Brahmavamso (Ajahn Brahm) did a degree in theoretical physics at Cambridge before becoming a monk. I suggest that you download audio recordings of some of his highly entertaining talks from: http://www.bswa.org/ My point is that intellectualism and Dhamma are not mutually exclusive. They can be complementary, but there needs to be a balance. ===== > > When I was small, my father took me to russian city Chita, close to it was a > small buddhist temple with mongolian monks. And the guy there told my father > "not good" when he told him he works intellectually - he is theoretical > scientist. And he said - living is learning, not thinking. Back then my Dad > explained to me that means that you have to practice not with your head, but > with all of your life. Please, pardon for my bad English. ===== A wise monk. I think he meant that you have to practice not *just* with your head, but with all of your life (including your head). ===== > I am from Russia and simple people in villages who are really connected to > the nature, they seem more Buddhist to me then the last teacher I went to > listen in our bookstore. I am totally cool with any teacher, but later when > I talk to someone and getting talks about scriptures and norvana and Buddha, > i wonder, may be this is modern trend? ===== The Buddha did not restrict his talks to simple subjects and he is certainly not "modern"; I suspect that there always needs to be a balance of "village simplicity" and "city sophistication". ===== > > There are so many people in Florida where I am now, so educated on subject, > who read so much, who has yoga certificates and who is really full of > advices on the subject. And they meditate and they really trying to live > their lives by scirptures. And I never met anyone really happy. May be I am > a bit wrong, from what I learn in Buddhism (and I am just curios scolar, not > practicioner), this is study of yourself which leads us to see ourselves are > not ourselves. And this is not really about achieving your own liberation. > And this is where it is getting confused to me, because everything is about > this particular person, his openion, his way to meditate and right piece of > scripture he read. > > I am sorry for confusing post :). > But please, share with me, if you are trully somewhere close there. ===== At different stages of development, different people are ready for different types of practices. The Buddha gave gradual instruction in the following order: - Benefits of generosity - Benefits of moral conduct - Future / past lives - Harm of sensual pleasures - Benefits or renunciation - Philosophy of four noble truths See DN 3, DN 14, MN 56 for examples. Given that this was the order that the Buddha introduced the Dhamma, it is ironic that almost all "Introductory Buddhism" books in the west are structured around the four noble truths. Metta, Rob M :-) 33957 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35 Dear Nina, I thought your comments on the useful notes on vinnana, mano and citta were very important as there's a lot of misunderstanding about their use in different contexts. As you said at the end: --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > N: When we study the Abhidhamma we can see that there isn1t any term > used > loosely. Nor can we speak of a technical use of terms. Different terms > used > for citta show us different aspects in different contexts. The > Abhidhamma is > very precise and it teaches us about realities. ..... Metta, Sarah ====== 33958 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Andrew, I ment to chip in on a couple of your posts some time ago, mostly just to say ‘good comments’ as with this one (to Rob Ep): --- Andrew wrote: > >I suspect that meditation can far > more easily slip into a happy ritual and I can well imagine the > Buddha warning clearly against this. Just as he clearly warned > against the Dhamma studiers who "grasp the snake by the coils" and > simply reinforce wrong view. Each different method has its own traps! .... S: Yes, rituals with wrong views can slip in anytime! You also wrote in a follow-up: A: >We need to know that each moment is a different collection of ultimate realities. We need to have an idea of how things work on the ultimate level and let that knowledge flavour our conventional lives. This has been a long process for me and still goes on! At first I thought that knowledge of ultimate reality was meant to make one turn away from conventional reality. But I found that I can't do without conventional reality and I presently believe that the idea is to see conventional reality through the prism of knowledge of ultimate reality. This, for example, doesn't debar meditation practice but requires it to be approached with clarity some may find hard to bring (meself included).< .... S: You’d make a good mediator or moderator for that matter;-). Meanwhile, I still have that picture you are asked us to imagine of you sandwiched between KenH & Azita at Cooran, thumping out the paramattha dhammas whenever you stray into conventional territory;-) Just wait til you they have RobK’s reinforcements as well. (We’ll look forward to hearing all about it;-). No dichotomies at all - no self to direct. As you say, we still ‘function’ normally and all kinds of kusala are good. Without the development of right understanding, however, it’s easy to judge outward actions as criteria of merit-making with little relevance to the path. For example, if someone performs a big act of generosity with the hope that this will lead to a heavenly rebirth, there must be some dana involved, but it may be quite weak and followed by a lot more attachment to some results, so that in fact a little dana is accumulated, but a lot more clinging and no development of understanding. This is why ‘truth’ (sacca) and wisdom and detachment from self are so important. Oh, and then you raised one of my favourite suttas in another post - the verse from the Udana when K.Pasenadi and Q.Mallika both agreed there was none dearer than the self. It’s such a good reminder to treat others well and with kindness, being afflicted by the same attachments. * In another post, you ask about the meaning of panna. There are different kinds and levels of panna, but it always relates to wholesome cittas and mental development and never to ‘knowledge of facts’ except if we use this to refer to intellectual panna which theoretically understands about the truths and development of various wholesome states as distinct from direct understanding, a deeper level of panna. I think Nyantiloka’s comment you quoted is right - panna ‘comprises a wide field’. At moments of satipatthana, it is 5-fold or 6-fold path panna which arises with other path factors. At moments of enlightenment, supramundane panna arises with the other 8-fold path factors. Metta, Sarah p.s Christine kindly encouraged us to join you all in August, but it’s most unlikely as we’re heading for Europe at the end of this month to meet up with my mother. Hopefully we’ll get back to Aus & Qld next year. We have great memories of our time with everyone in Noosa. ***** * (I wrote before: >With regard to the Udana verse: 'Having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place; thus is the self dear separately to others therefore one desiring self should not harm another.' I think it’s pretty clear that it is attachment to self rather than metta to oneself that is so strong and powerful. Please note that piya is again used in these notes: The commentary adds: '.....One would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place (n'ev'ajjhagaapiyataram attanaa kvaci): whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.Thus is the self dear separately to others (evam piyo puthu attaa paresa.m): thus is the self alone dear separately, severally, to this and that being, by way of the non-discovery of anyone dearer than the self. Therefore one desiring self should not harm another (tasmaa na hi.mse param attakaama): since each being holds the self dear in that way, is one desiring happiness for that self, one for whom dukkha is repulsive..........' > In other words, again by 'dear', we're reading about the great attachment we have to ourselves , dearer than any other being. Again, by reflecting on this attachment, it may be a condition to have metta to others and treat them well (with their equally strong attachment to themselves).< ========== 33959 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:40am Subject: Re: Karuna ( was [dsg] Re: Brahma viharas, no 2) Hi Philip, I was just talking on the phone to our dear friend who was a seemingly fit,healthy and happy judge a few weeks ago and is now undergoing intense cancer treatment and having trouble even speaking and hardly able to eat. As he tried to talk, he was having to gargle pain-killers at the same time and really wishing to meet us on Sunday, but not sure he’d be able to manage. As I spoke and listened, so many different mental states were arising and falling and still are as I continue to think about him. For example, metta, but also lots of attachment and also some annoyance with hospital methods, karuna (compassion) which is never sad, but also some dismay and worry naturally. I remembered you were asking and writing about karuna. I enjoyed your post about your subway experience very much - I love your reflections with humour and daily life examples*: “So these women were a mirror for me. I’m on the same leash.” This is the same point as the one being made in the Udana sutta I commented on to Andrew. Yes, understanding we’re all in the same boat can be a condition for karuna. Even when life is going well, it’s still dukkha. The Buddha directly knew the impermanence of all realities for all and therefore had compassion without any limits. For us, compassion only arises when someone appears to be suffering, whereas metta can arise at any time. I believe this is why it is more frequently discussed in the texts. Nina quoted K.Sujin’s ‘Perfections’: “However, since pa~n~naa is not of the degree of accomplishment of the Sammasambuddha, we do not fathom the true characteristic of suffering, dukkha. We do not fully grasp that all beings are subject to dukkha because of birth, old age, sickness, death and impermanence. The arising and falling away of realities is the noble Truth of dukkha, this is the real suffering.” You asked if I or anyone else had anything further to share on karuna and I’d be grateful if you’d read this post I wrote ages ago and if you have time over the weekend, please take a look at the posts under ‘compassion’ in U.P. and add any further comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3774 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I always appreciate this topic a lot -- actually, you have a knack of bringing up many of the topics I’ve considered a lot. I’d like to add more on the dust-rag, but it’ll have to be later. Metta, Sarah * Maybe you can turn your talents to a book along these lines....;-) ====== 33960 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:36am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Rob, Thanks for your thorough consideration of my questions about naming. Rob: > The first Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya (the second Nikaya) is the > Mulapariyaya Sutta, the Root of Existence. This Sutta explains how > the mind works, right down to the roots, of an uninstructed worldling > (that's us), a "learner" (Sotapanna, Sakadagami or Anagami), an > Arahant and the Buddha. So if you want to understand how the workings > of your mind differ from that of a Sotapanna, from that of an Arahant > and from that of a Buddha, you can read this Sutta. (snip) > Let me summarize for you (I don't claim to understand it fully): > The uninstructed worldling perceives X as X (where X = earth, water, > fire, etc.). The Sotapanna, Arahant and Buddha directly know X. One > might think that perceiving X as X is a good thing, but the > commentary explains that the Sutta means that uninstructed worldling > is subject to perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) whereas the > Sotapanna, etc. are not. Phil: I can see this X as X happening rather thatn directly knowing X. At this point I can't understanding what it means to directly know something. Presumably pressing ahead gently, patiently, with knowing X as X will lead to knowing X directly, in some lifetime. But at least knowing X as X and Y as Y is better than XXYYXYXSYYXZ as XYXYXYXXYZXYZ, if you know what I mean. Even if it's intellectual, focussing on individual mental moments, seeing them more and more clearly, even intellectually, is liberating. Rob: > As an anlogy, perversion of perception is what happens when a man > sees a coil of rope in the dark and momentarily perceives it as a > snake. In an uninstructed worldling, this perversion of perception is > the foundation of a perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa). This is > what happens when the man reflects on what he has seen and thinks > that what he has seen is a snake. Perversion of thought is the > foundation for perversion of view (ditti-vipallasa), the most serious > type of perversion. This is what happens when the man is convinced > that what he has seen is a snake. See the Vipallasa Sutta (AN IV.49) > and its commentary for more details. Phil: This is interesting, the way the perversion of thought becomes a perversion of view. I've never thought about that before. Last night I printed out the honeyball sutta, and read for the first time about papanca. I wonder if something similar to that is going on here. I guess this perversion of thought > perversion of view is also involved in the process of proliferation laid out in the honeyball sutta. I look forward to asking you more about this sort of thing if we get a chance to meet. Oops. I have to get off the computer. Thanks again. I will be re reading and reflecting further on your thoughtful response. Metta, Phil 33961 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:40am Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (5) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry (3) It might be objected that several other passages on the two candidates for stream-entry implicitly include the jhaanas among their meditative equipment. The details of these passages need not concern us here. What is of interest to us is that they assign to both the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower the five spiritual faculties: faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom.[10] The Indriya-sa.myutta states that the faculty of concentration "is to be seen among the four jhaanas,"[11] and a definition of the concentration faculty includes the formula for the jhaanas.[12] Thus, if we argue deductively from these ascriptions and definitions, it would seem to follow as a matter of logic that both the Dhamma-follower and the faith-follower possess the jhaanas. More broadly, since these faculties and powers belong to all noble disciples, not to monks alone, this might be held up as proof that all noble disciples, monks and lay followers, invariably possess the jhaanas. Such a conclusion would follow if we adopt a literal and deductive approach to the interpretation of the texts, but it is questionable whether such a hermeneutic is always appropriate when dealing with the formulaic definitions employed so often by the Nikaayas. To extract the intended meaning from such schematic definition, we require greater sensitivity to context, sensitivity guided by acquaintance with a wide assortment of relevant texts. Further, if we do opt for the literalist approach, then, since the passage simply inserts the formula for the four jhaanas without qualification into the definition of the concentration faculty, we would have to conclude that all noble disciples, monks and lay followers alike, possess all four jhaanas, not just one. Even more, they would have to possess the four jhaanas already as faith-followers and Dhamma-followers, at the very entry to the path. This, however, seems too generous, and indicates that we need to be cautious in interpreting such formulaic definitions. In the case presently being considered, I would regard the use of the jhaana formula here as a way of showing the most eminent type of concentration to be developed by the noble disciple. I would not take it as a rigid pronouncement that all noble disciples actually possess all four jhaanas, or even one of them. But there is more to be said. When we attend closely to these texts, we see that a degree of flexibility is already built into them. In the analysis of the faculties at SN 48:9–10/V 197–98, the first sutta offers an alternative definition of the faculty of concentration that does not mention the four jhaanas, while the following sutta gives both definitions conjointly. The alternative version runs thus: "And what, monks, is the faculty of concentration? Here, monks, a noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. This is called the faculty of concentration."[13] ****** Notes 10. E.g., MN I 479, SN V 200–2. SN V 379 ascribes the five faculties to two types of persons who, though the terms are not used, are clearly identifiable as the dhammaanusaarii and saddhaanusaarii. 11. SN 48:8/V 196: catusu jhaanesu, ettha samaadhindriya.m da.t.thabba.m. See too AN 5:15/III 12, where it is said that the power of concentration (samaadhibala) "is to be seen among the four jhaanas." 12. At SN 48:10/V 198, the faculty of concentration is defined by the formula for the four jhaanas. At AN 5:14/III 11, the power of concentation (samaadhibala) is similarly defined. 13. Katama– ca bhikkhave samaadhindriya.m? Idha bhikkhave ariyasaavako vossaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhati samaadhi.m labhati cittassa ekaggata.m. Ida.m bhikkhave samaadhindriya.m. 33962 From: Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:03am Subject: Away Hi, all - I will be away from home, and probably without internet access, from early Sunday a.m. (June 20) to the following Sunday evening (June 27). I will respond after the 27th to emails directed to me between the 20th and 27th. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33963 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello, I'm a new member Hi, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > Well, it's only fair that characterizations be attempted from those > "on the inside" as well as those "on the outside". > > With metta, > Howard Since this area is under general discussion here at the moment I hope you won't mind if I say a few more words on the subject. I believe that the practice of/in accordance with the Dhamma means the development of insight (vipassana bhavana), and that this is only possible to the extent that (1) insight has been developed and accumulated in previous lifetimes and (2) the re-arising of insight in this lifetime, both initially and afterwards, is appropriately prompted and supported. However, the conditions necessary for the arising of moments of insight/satipatthana are very specific and hard to come by (unless of course it has been highly developed previously, in which case, as for Sariputta, a few words may suffice). For most of us, the accumulated tendency to insight is relatively weak, and needs all the prompting it can get. That prompting and support is what is described in the first 3 factors of the factors for stream entry so often quoted here, namely, association with superior persons, hearing the true dhamma, and wise reflection on what has been heard and understood. There are of course important links between the various factors. As regards the first and second factors, one of those links is, as I see it, that it is only through personal contact that an individual hears dhamma that is true and also is appropriate for him or her at his or her stage of development, with his or her particular tendencies and shortcomings (including wrong view). Generally speaking, it is not possible to gain the same kind of benefit from an impersonal source, and I include here the Tipitaka in isolation, because for the most part our level of insight is such that we cannot sufficiently appreciate its meaning without extensive further explanation and reflection. Thus it would be wrong in my view to equate mere reading of the Tipitaka with the hearing of dhamma that is one of the factors for stream entry, and which is something that happens in conjunction with association with the right person/s. In my own case, I can't remember the last time I read a sutta or dhamma book for its own sake, rather than because I wanted to check out a particular point of interest, usually in connection with posting to the list. Of course I do read everything that comes to the list, and there is a lot of useful dhamma among that, which triggers a lot of reflection (hopefully some of it wise reflection), so I consider myself fortunate in that regard. But I wouldn't say that I am someone who 'carefully and with great concentration' studies and contemplates the tipitaka 'in great detail and at great length, with the idea that these teaching seeds, well watered by careful study and contemplation, will bear the eventual fruit of wisdom'. (To me that sounds rather like a meditator's approach to Tipitaka study ;-)).) Jon 33964 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:39am Subject: Re: Away Dear Howard, It is good to know how you plan the use of your time. I have announced several times that I may be staying dormant for a month or two. This is because I do not know the exact time when I will be away from internet. But as soon as I can, I will be here around Dhamma discussions at dhamma-list, DSG, triplegem and JourneyToNibbana. In between I may appear intermittently. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi, all - > > I will be away from home, and probably without internet access, from > early Sunday a.m. (June 20) to the following Sunday evening (June 27). I will > respond after the 27th to emails directed to me between the 20th and 27th. > > With metta, > Howard 33965 From: Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:02am Subject: Re: [Triplegem] Re: Away Hi. Htoo - In a message dated 6/18/04 10:36:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > It is good to know how you plan the use of your time. I have > announced several times that I may be staying dormant for a month or > two. This is because I do not know the exact time when I will be away > from internet. But as soon as I can, I will be here around Dhamma > discussions at dhamma-list, DSG, triplegem and JourneyToNibbana. In > between I may appear intermittently. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > =========================== You probably suspect I'm going on a retreat. The reality is far less Dhammically grandiose, however. My wife and I are going on our first cruise - a cruise of the southern Caribbean. But so as not to disappoint, I promise to meditate regularly while away and to contemplate the metaphor of being adrift on the sea of samsara! ;-)) It happens that I do have in mind attending a one week retreat starting late in November. It is a Ch'an retreat led by Master Sheng-Yen, and I am greatly looking forward to it. The approach combines cultivation of samatha and vipassana in tandem in what seems a very natural way to me. I had hoped to attend an earlier such retreat, but that didn't work out. If this one does, and if there is any interest evinced, I'll give a brief report on it afterwards. I do hope your "internet absences" prove to be very fruitful for you! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33966 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry!!! > What does Pm.463 say? Is it too long to translate? I'm surprised that > "health" doesn't mean physical health. Does "pleasant result" mean > whatever I do that makes myself or another experience pleasant feeling > is kusala? Is pleasant feeling always kusala? What is blamelessness? Who > blames? Who says what is blame-worthy? Larry, terms such Kusala and akusala have got a wide scope of meaning. Personally I do take the word "expertise" as Kusala and "un- expertise" or dullness for akusala. so you get; Kusala ( things caused by or delivered thru expertise) : health, profit, virtue, ability, virtuoso, self-esteem, good feeling, applause, blamelessness, (Narrator): Northern of Canada, where men are really men and women too...with the beautiful canadian sun fading down over the River Cayuga sparkling golden beams of light to all landscape,the marigolds blotting the air with its scent Ícaro is punctuating all the good features of Kusala to Larry (that hadn't get yet his come-uppance)... Mettaya, Ícaro 33967 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:21am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 5 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 5 The development of the eightfold Path is not just observing or noticing realities. This might be done with lobha or an idea of self who observes. The development of the Path is detachment from the beginning to the end. When we listen to the Dhamma, the goal should be detachment from wrong view. Also, when we listen, there can be a degree of detachment from our wrong ideas about a self. Acharn Sujin said that by studying visible object with awareness one will have less attachment to visible object as a real being. In the ultimate sense there are only nåma and rúpa arising and falling away. She said: ³One doesn¹t have to hurry to get rid of all attachment and aversion because this is impossible. Our goal is to get rid of wrong view and ignorance. One will have lobha and dosa as usual, but they can decrease when right understanding is developed. The Buddha¹s teachings are concerned with one thing: developing understanding, because all dukkha comes from ignorance. It has ignorance as its root by clinging to reality which changes all the time. It seems that we can control life, but realities arise by conditions. You don¹t want pleasant things to change, but they change all the time. You don¹t want to get old, but you are getting old all the time. You don¹t want to part from things or people, but one day even this body will be scattered about. So we live very temporarily in one moment and we do not know what the next moment will be like.² Through the development of insight we learn the difference between what is real in the ultimate sense, a paramattha dhamma, and a concept (paññatti) that is only an object of thinking. On may have doubts whether it is beneficial to know, when looking at a flower, that this is colour, that only colour is seen, that colour and seeing are paramattha dhammas, and thinking of a flower is thinking of a concept. The truth of dhammas is deep and difficult to understand. The development of understanding of the truth can lead to a lessening of defilements. Defilements cause sorrow. It is beneficial to understand what dhamma is, to know that dhamma is different from a concept. But, understanding must be developed very naturally, not in a rigid way. We should not try to separate mindfulness of dhammas and daily life. We may be discouraged that paññå and sati seldom arise and that we are thinking of people, things and events most of the time. But thinking is a reality, and if we do not realize it as such we take it for self. ***** Nina. 33968 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:21am Subject: Tiika Visuddhimagga 82 Visuddhimagga 82 82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why "consciousness" is said' (M.i,292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning. That same [consciousness], though one in its individual essence with the characteristic of cognizing, is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35) --------------------- Tiika Vis. 82, English: He said of consciousness itself ³whatever (has the characteristic of cognizing)², in order to explain the meaning of having the characteristic of cognizing as stated in the sutta. He said, with reference to its nature, in order to explain that it occurs merely because of conditions, thus, that it is a dhamma with its own nature. Apart from a dhamma with its own nature, there truly is no one at all who is a doer, and thus, he said ³it cognizes², in order to explain merely the nature of an action. N: As we read in the Vis.: In Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb cognizing in the third person singular. Tiika: He made known in accordance with different methods of teaching: consciousness with the meaning of cognizing, citta with the meaning of thinking (of an object) and so on, and mind with the meaning of measuring (an object). N: As we read in the Vis.: The Expositor (I, p.185) deals with synonyms of citta: <...Œconsciousness¹ (citta) is so called because of its variegated nature (cittta also has the meaning of variegated). There is a word association of citta and cinteti, to think. Citta thinks of an object. <ŒMind¹ (mano) is so called because it knows the measure of an object.> Here is a word-association of mano and measure. The Expositor adds maanasa that is similar to mano, and heart, hadaya, that is also used for citta. Vi~n~naa.na.m, citta.m and mano are the same in meaning, but these terms are used each in different contexts. Tiika: And to this extent he explained consciousness by way of khandha or by way of other classifications or methods of teaching. N: The Tiika explains that there are many ways of classification, but all cittas can be seen as threefold, as kusala, akusala and avyaakata, indeterminate. Tiika: Here he taught just the meaning of wholesome, unwholesome and indeterminate... There kusala has the meaning of wholesome. What does this mean ? It has the meaning of healthy, blameless, productive of happy results... N: Kusala can be translated as wholesome, profitable or moral. The Tiika now explains word associations of the term kusala, in the same way as the ³Expositor² (I, p. 48. 49). Word associations are used as a means to show different aspects of realities. We read that Œkusala¹ causes contemptible things to tremble (this is associated with the stems ku, bad, and tremble, sal). Thus, kusala can prevent the arising of akusala. Tiika: Kusala is so called because it shakes and obstructs contemptible and blamable dhammas.... N: The Tiika explains that because of dosa, aversion, and other defilements unwholesome deeds which are greatly blameful such as killing are committed, but that kusala can obstruct these and cause them to be destroyed. Tiika: Or kusala dhammas are so called because they eradicate, make an end to and destroy contemptible dhammas. pu~n~nakiriyavasena pavattaani saddhaadiini indriyaani, tehi laatabba.m pavattetabbanti kusala.m. Kusala is so called because it should take up and cause the arising of the faculties of confidence and so on, by means of the meritorious deeds.... N: The ten meritorious deeds (pu~n~nakiriya vatthu) can also be classified as daana, siila and mental development. Daana includes not only giving away of material things, it is also, for example, giving of knowledge, or the appreciation of other¹s kusala. Siila includes not only abstinence from akusala but also helping and paying respect to those who deserve it. Straightening one's views, one of the ten meritorious deeds, can go together with all kinds of kusala. When rectifying our views, we can learn to see the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. We can come to understand kusala as non-self. There are five faculties, indriyas, that should be developed together: confidence, energy or courage (viriya), mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Confidence is confidence in the Triple Gem, in the Path, in kusala. We read further on in the Tiika about the meaning of akusala. Akusala can be translated as unwholesome, unprofitable or immoral. Tiika: Akusala is: not kusala, and this means: being the opposite of kusala. N: Then the text explains akusala as being the opposite of kusala by being unhealthy, blamable, productive of unhappy results, not skilful. etc. Tiika: Just as kusala is in direct opposition to akusala, and by nature opposed to illness of cetasikas, and so on, here also akusala is explained by the method of health and so on. Therefore, he said that akusala is directly opposed to kusala, with the words: ... N: As to the method of health, this means the method of health and illness, the opposite of health. Kusala citta and its accompanying cetasikas are as it were healthy, and akusala citta and its accompanying cetasikas are as it were ill. Akusala is in all respects the opposite of kusala. Further on we read about citta that is avyaakata, indeterminate: Tiika text: Indeterminate (or unmoral) means undeclared. This means that what is indeterminate cannot be declared either kusala or akusala; it is indeterminate. Here what is of the nature of kusala is blameless and has a happy result. What is of the nature of akusala is blameful and has an unhappy result. ..... As was said there before, ³indeterminate has the characteristic of bringing no result². N: Indeterminate is not kusala nor akusala, and thus it cannot produce any result. The cittas that are indeterminate are kiriyacittas, inoperative cittas, and vipaakacittas, cittas that are the results of kamma. **** Nina. 33969 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry, op 18-06-2004 00:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result > (see Pm.463)." > > What does Pm.463 say? Is it too long to translate? N: This number corresponds to Tiika 82, numbering varies. Too long? You said it, I bet you. One human being cannot in one life time translate all of this Tiika. I make a choice as you see. L:I'm surprised that > "health" doesn't mean physical health. N: There is a dukkha far greater than any physical sickness. Kusala is merely compared to health, but it is more valuable than health. The late Ven. Dhammadharo said that akusala takes us downhill. When we are not going uphill we are going downhill. L: Does "pleasant result" mean > whatever I do that makes myself or another experience pleasant feeling > is kusala? N: It just means: kusala kamma produces kusala vipaaka or pleasant result, such as the experience of pleasant objects through the senses or a happy rebirth. It does not refer to situations, but to cause and result. L:Is pleasant feeling always kusala? N: See Htoo's series, he gives many details and later on we shall have these also in Vis. Pleasant feeling can accompany kusala citta as well as akusala citta. And also indeterminate citta. L: What is blamelessness? Who > blames? Who says what is blame-worthy? N: blamelessness is another word for purity of citta, or faultlessness. Anavajja, blame-worthy, avajja, is the opposite. Inferior or faulty. I also read in some texts: to be blamed by the wise. There is no need to think of a situation of persons who blame someone else. Akusala kamma are blame-worthy. That is a fixed order of Dhamma, it is in the nature of akusala kamma to be faulty or blameworthy. Some akusala kamma are mahaa-saavajja: very blameworthy. in Dispeller of Delusion ( II p. 120) different gradations of blamefulness are explained. Killing of an arahat is more to blame than the killing of others, etc. Drinking a small measure of liquor is less to blame, is more to blame. Drinking which causes bodily unsteadiness in one who destroys a villlage or town is much more to blame. When someone harms others they will blame him. When someone harms himself by akusala kamma even when others do not know, that kamma can bring an unpleasant result. Nina. 33970 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:21am Subject: Tiika Visuddhimagga 82, Pali-English Vis. 82, Pali: 82. ya.mki~nci vijaananalakkha.na.m sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa vi~n~naa.nakkhandho veditabboti hi vutta.m. ki~nca vijaananalakkha.na.m vi~n~naa.na.m. yathaaha``vijaanaati vijaanaatiiti kho aavuso tasmaa vi~n~naa.nanti vuccatii''ti (ma0 ni0 1.449). vi~n~naa.na.m citta.m manoti atthato eka.m. tadeta.m vijaananalakkha.nena sabhaavato ekavidhampi jaativasena tividha.m kusala.m, akusala.m, abyaakata~nca. **** Tiika Vis. 82: Pali English: Attanaa ³vijaananalakkha.nan²ti vuttamattha.m suttena samatthetu.m ³ya.m ki~ncii²ti-aadi vutta.m. He said of consciousness itself ³whatever (has the characteristic of cognizing)², in order to explain the meaning of having the characteristic of cognizing as stated in the sutta. Yathaapaccaya.m pavattimattameta.m, yadida.m sabhaavadhammoti dassetu.m Œvijaananalakkha.nan²ti bhaavasaadhanavasena vutta.m. He said, with reference to its nature, in order to explain that it occurs merely because of conditions, thus, that it is a dhamma with its own nature. Dhammasabhaavaa vinimutto koci kattaa naama natthiiti tasseva kattubhaava.m dassetu.m ³vijaanaatii²ti vutta.m. Apart from a dhamma with its own nature, there truly is no one at all who is a doer, and thus, he said ³it cognizes², in order to explain merely the nature of an action. Ya.m vijaanana.t.thena vi~n~naa.na.m, tadeva cintanaadi-atthena citta.m, manana.t.thena manoti pariyaayatopi na.m bodheti. He made known in accordance with different methods of teaching: consciousness with the meaning of cognizing, citta with the meaning of thinking (of an object) and so on, and mind with the meaning of measuring (an object). Ettaavataa ca khandhato, bhedato, pariyaayato ca vi~n~naa.na.m vibhaavita.m hoti. And to this extent he explained consciousness by way of khandha or by way of other classifications or methods of teaching.... ... ta.m idhaadhippetameva pana dassento ³kusala.m, akusala.m, abyaakata~ncaa²ti aaha. Here he taught just the meaning of wholesome, unwholesome and indeterminate. ... Tattha kusala.t.thena kusala.m. Koya.m kusala.t.tho naama? There kusala has the meaning of wholesome. What does this mean ? Aarogya.t.tho anavajja.t.tho sukhavipaaka.t.tho. It has the meaning of healthy, blameless, productive of happy results... Kucchitaana.m vaa saavajjadhammaana.m salanato sa.mvara.nato kusala.m. Kusala is so called because it shakes and obstructs contemptible and blamable dhammas.... Kucchitaana.m vaa saanato antakara.nato vinaasanato kusaani, Or kusala dhammas are so called because they eradicate, make an end to and destroy contemptible dhammas. pu~n~nakiriyavasena pavattaani saddhaadiini indriyaani, tehi laatabba.m pavattetabbanti kusala.m. Kusala is so called because it should take up and cause the arising of the faculties of confidence and so on, by means of the meritorious deeds.... Na kusalanti akusala.m, kusalapa.tipakkhanti attho. Akusala is: not kusala, and this means: being the opposite of kusala... Ettha ca yasmaa kusala.m akusalassa ujuvipaccaniikabhuuta.m, Just as kusala is in direct opposition to akusala, and by nature opposed to illness of cetasikas, and so on, here also akusala is explained by the method of health and so on. tasmaa akusala.m pana kusalassa ujuvipaccaniikabhuutanti vutta.m ³kusalapa.tipakkhanti attho²ti.... Therefore, he said that akusala is directly opposed to kusala, with the words: ... Na byaakatanti abyaakata.m, kusalaakusalabhaavena akathitanti attho. Indeterminate (or unmoral) means undeclared. This means that what is indeterminate cannot be declared either kusala or akusala; it is indeterminate. Tattha kusalabhaavo anavajjasukhavipaaka.t.tho. Here what is of the nature of kusala is blameless and has a happy result. Akusalabhaavo saavajjadukkhavipaaka.t.tho, What is of the nature of akusala is blameful and has an unhappy result... Tathaa heta.m ³avipaakalakkha.nan²ti vuccati. As was said there before, ³indeterminate has the characteristic of bringing no result². ***** Nina. 33971 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. dear Nina: > N: This number corresponds to Tiika 82, numbering varies. Too long? >You said > it, I bet you. One human being cannot in one life time translate >all of this > Tiika. I make a choice as you see. --------------------------------------------------------------------- That's the way it is, Nina. One of the good remarks on abhidhamma's Tiikas is its great degree of elaboration, even about Syntatical features. You aren't pulling out a rabbit ( or a Lion, or a Rhino, or a hunter,etc)of a hat, Nina! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: There is a dukkha far greater than any physical sickness. Kusala is > merely compared to health, but it is more valuable than health. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not giving hints to an eventual mahayanist present here, but at Theravada tradition you can use even Physical sickness as an object of Jhana, as Buddha did in his last sermon, the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. Dukkha has got an ontological presence in all beings far beyond the meaning of any physical disease. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: It just means: kusala kamma produces kusala vipaaka or pleasant result, > such as the experience of pleasant objects through the senses or a happy > rebirth. It does not refer to situations, but to cause and result. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This even singing tune will beat the rhythm of all Dhammasangani till its last stanza: kusala vipaakaa ( and their offshot the bhumisu vipaakaa) are one of the final and most important Dhammaa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: blamelessness is another word for purity of citta, or faultlessness. > Anavajja, blame-worthy, avajja, is the opposite. Inferior or faulty. I also > read in some texts: to be blamed by the wise. There is no need to think of a > situation of persons who blame someone else. Akusala kamma are blame-worthy. > That is a fixed order of Dhamma, it is in the nature of akusala kamma to be > faulty or blameworthy. Some akusala kamma are mahaa-saavajja: very > blameworthy. in Dispeller of Delusion ( II p. 120) different gradations of > blamefulness are explained. Killing of an arahat is more to blame than the > killing of others, etc. Drinking a small measure of liquor is less to blame, > is more to blame. Drinking which causes bodily > unsteadiness in one who destroys a villlage or town is much more to blame. > When someone harms others they will blame him. When someone harms himself by > akusala kamma even when others do not know, that kamma can bring an > unpleasant result. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said as usual, Nina! mettaya, Ícaro 33972 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:36pm Subject: Re: Fw: [dsg] accumulations/conditions (was: tolerant spirit of dsg) Hello Betty, Thank you for helping to clarify the difference between conditions and accumulations. Sorry I couldn't respond sooner. Betty: > > Conditions are causes for the rising and falling away of nama and rupa, > > i.e., what comprises the 5 khandas. Kamma, action, is one of those 24 > > conditions, called paccaya in Pali. They are laid out in the Patthana, the > > last book of the 7 in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (sorry, can't get my Pali > > markings to work on Outlook Express), but if you have access to > > Nayanatiloka's detailed Buddhist Dictionary, and Nina's wonderful book > > entitled Conditions you will get the best pariyatti understanding of what > > conditions are. Ph: I'm starting in to "Cetasikas" now. I really do feel grateful to Nina for all her books. I will read "Conditions" as soon as the possibilty arises! Paccaya. This is my word for the day. Betty: > >On the conventional level, what is perceived through the > > senses as our surroundings, things, beings, are all conditioned by past > > kamma actions. (snip) Thus, > > what you perceive on the conventional level as your hectic surroundings > are > > the result of conditions, as you said below. Phil: It is very liberating to realize this - gradually. Betty: > > Accumulations, on the other hand, called ayuhana in Pali and satsom in > Thai, > > are the tendencies, proclivities that are "stored" (sorry for lack of a > > better term) in each citta when it arises, falls away and conditions the > > next one to arise. Phiil: Of course I have come across the idea of tendencies acumulating, being stored in each citta. At this point I have trouble understanding this, because I ahve understood in my beginnner's way that each citta is a moment of cognition. How can a moment of cognition carry or store anything? For example, the patisandhi-citta (rebirth consciousness) carries so much from past lifetimes that plays out in the new lifetime. I can'T yet see how this could happen, but I think that understanding will grow gradually through many lifetimes. In this lifetime, I don't feel pressure to try to figure it out - yet. In the meantime, I will accept it as taught by the Buddha that a citta can store proclivities. Betty: > >Accumulations are also a kind of "storehouse" (again, > > can't find a better term) of past kammic actions from which new kammic > > actions are conditioned during the javana part of a sense door process. > The > > more accumulations for certain tendencies, the more chances there are for > > such tendencies to "come out" in the form of action or thought. That is > why, > > for instance, some people have accumulations for meditating and others > have > > accumulations for study and contemplation, or for both. Phil: As I think you said in your initial post, we have so many lifetimes to work out our liberations, so I don't think there is a need to decide once and for all whether meditation is necessary or not - certainly not in this lifetime. If we are not meditating, it is because of conditions and accumulations. Conditions and accumulations will arise to make us meditate or not meditate in countless lifetimes to come but eventually conditions and understanding will lead to meditation in which the jhanas which are necessary for ultimate liberation will arise. In the meantime, in my case at least, there are gross defilements with roots that can be loosened. That is more than enough to aspire to in this lifetime. Betty: >The accumulations > > themselves are dormant, but through conditions accumulations "come out" as > > kammic action. So, the difference basically is that accumulations lie > > dormant in the cittas, but conditions cause nama and rupa to arise and > fall > > away, actions and results to occur. > > > > That is the way I understand it (pariyatti) and hope it answers your > > question Phil: That was very helpful. Thanks again. Betty: > > But, > > Dhamma teaches us that in reality there are only the phenomena of the 5 > > khandas rising and falling away all the time because of conditions; > there're > > no Phil no Betty, no noisy kids, neighbors, etc. So, the more we read, > > listen, contemplate on the Dhamma the more conditions are being developed > > for increasing understanding of this to arise. That means that the > > conventional environment around us gradually becomes less and less of a > > factor influencing "us" (there is no "us"), the more that understanding > > arises. Gradually, we come to see the conventional environment for what it > > is and gradually "we" can let go of the attachment "we" have for it in the > > form of irritation (dosa) or liking (lobha). But, and this is a big but, > > patience is required. Phil: Again, even when understood intellectually to some degree of depth this is very liberating. Especially with letting go of dosa. (It seems that lobha is more insiduous in a way.) I keep thinking of that scene in Good Will Hunting when the psychiatirst hugs the patient and repeatedly says "it's not your fault, it's not your fault" until the patient's hard self protection dissolves into tears and healing. I think that's that the Buddha's teaching of Khamma does for me - but without the violins and tears. Betty: > >Understanding does not arise when "we" would like it > > to; it arises because the conditions are right for it to do so. > > > > So, whatever your environment, continue to study, contemplate, or even > > meditate (if you fall asleep doing it, it may be the conditions are not > > right for it, so stop for a while. But, please note, "who" is doing the > > meditating?), when the conditions are right for those actions to occur; > just > > take it as it comes, with patience and acceptance. Phil: Don't forget good cheer! (I always enjoy Azita's signature line.) Thanks again, Betty. Sarah mentionned in another post that you were going on a trip. I hope you have a chance to see this so you know how grateful I was for your response. Metta, Phil 33973 From: Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. Icaro!!! What in the world are you doing in northern Canada??? Larry ------------------------- "(Narrator): Northern of Canada, where men are really men and women too...with the beautiful canadian sun fading down over the River Cayuga sparkling golden beams of light to all landscape,the marigolds blotting the air with its scent Ícaro is punctuating all the good features of Kusala to Larry (that hadn't get yet his come-uppance)..." 33974 From: Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result (see Pm.463)." Hi Nina, Is this a canonical definition or a commentarial definition? Do you know where it first appears? Larry 33975 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) Hello Vital Thank you for feeling enough trust to turn to us for help. Like Rob M said, I am not a counsellor but I would just like to say that I believe that if you stay open to the Buddha's teaching and continue to discuss with good Dhamma friends like you can find in this group, your answers will come. That having been said, are you sure that it's a good idea to become a monk when you are suffering from a broken heart and intense loneliness? You will take your broken heart with you to the monastery. There is probably no room at the monastery for that kind of baggage! Wouldn't it be better to face your loneliness here and now in the light of the Buddha's teaching, and when the Buddha's teaching has given you the wisdom to see through that loneliness - and I have faith that it will if you stay open to it - then it will be time to decide whether to become a monk or not. The Buddha's teaching contains so much wisdom and so encouragement. Please stay open to the Buddha's teaching like a parched flower to the rain and don't feel the pressure to make any quick decisions. Feel free to e-mail me off list, if you'd like. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bernard.vital" wrote: > Please give me an answer > What do I have to do.... > Since 1994 (the first time I was in Thailand) i felt me there as at home. > After a nine year relation wiht a man he broke up. I met a Vietnamese man > than and since that moment I´m very interested in Buddhism, and I looked > every where to become a monk. But it didn´t happen, because of my HIV+. > After 4 monthe my Vietnamese friend leaves. And we are still godd friends > but we didn´t have a relation. At that moment I was realy convinced to > become a monk in Asia. Adn I ask a lot of information but than came Bernard, > a Philoppino man, and I felt in love with him. We didn´t have sex but I > loved him so much. And durting that relation of more than one year I read > and studied a lot of buddhist text. And I thought I love hin so much and > that is the reason I still stay here in Holland. But if he leaves me I go to > Asia and become a monk. Some days ago he left me, because he want to built > up a life in Manila. So now what decision do I have to take. Are alll these > sings enough to decide to go to Asia and become a monk there? Or wha tmoere > sings do there have to come? I know now that all relations will have > suffering and pain as result. And I don´t want to astay alone in this world. > Please help me... > > Mr. Vital E.H. Moors > Westerbaenstraat 212 > 2513 GK Den Haag > 070-3648843 > bernard.vital@z... > www.vitalmoors.nl > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- > Van: "Sarah" > Aan: > Verzonden: donderdag 17 juni 2004 11:56 > Onderwerp: Re: [dsg] Re: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According > to the Paali Suttas (3) 33976 From: bernard.vital Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Away my msn is: vitalm20@m... my yahoo is: vital_moors chicka . 007345788 www.vitalmoors.nl bernard.vital@z... Bernard is the greatest love of my life. He is the most beuatiful and nice philippino boy I know. Because we were so happy together, we would have had our marriage on the 28th of June 2004... Everything was ok for it. Till he gots two weeks ago a phonecall from his eldest sister who lives in the Philippines. His father has heared the news of our wedding and wanted that his son goes back to Manala. Than His brother from the Philippines came last week and he concinced my friend to go back. I din't met his brother. And two days ago he left our house to his siters place in Zwolle. And he is waiting there till he can leave in a fewe days. I love Bernard so much. He is everything for me. I did everything for him and that he could built up a future in The Netherlands. Now he follows his fathers will. I can imagine that. But it is not the best, not for me and not for him. Why does this have to happen. I had already so much problems in my life and I always was greatful and helping everybody. If there is a God, why is he so cruel... I do not have energy anymore to fight. I only wont to die and have peace for ever. Please help me sent me a mail or sent a mail to him burnz01@h... Vital 33977 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Re: question on observation Hello Yulia You ask very important questions! I am new to Abdhidhamma, and this group, so your questions give me a good opportunity to reflect on what has maybe changed in my life because of them. Y: > I am part of this group for over 2 > years. And over this time I always read this beautiful postings about > Abhidhamma interpretation and attaining jhanas. And somehow I feel that this > is not really right, that all this is really intellectual work, this is not > what is dhamma about. Ph: First of all, I would encourage you to ask questions and join discussions more often. I am always so grateful for the thoughtful responses I receieve to my questions/comments. Those responses are in themselves what dhamma is about. A kind of dana (generosity?) The interaction in itself is important, in addition to the content. We give others the opportunity to develop wholesome factors when we ask questions - and of course there is a lot to learn from the content of the answers as well that can lead to wholesome progress for ourselves as well. If it seems that the discussions are merely intellectual when read from the outside, I think it will feel differently when you involve yourself in them more. (This was true in my case - when I first came here and lurked, I thought it was all about people who were attached to Pali terminology. I learned that this is not the case.) Y: > May be I am wrong? > I wonder who of you personally getting there physically and life- wise? Phil: Lifewise, even my beginner's intellectual understanding of Abdhidhamma is having a huge beneficial impact. Well, maybe it would be truer to say that my beginner's understanding of Abhidhamma has allowed me to begin to understand annata, and the khandas - central points of the Buddha's teaching which I had read about countless times but never begun to understand until I came across Abhidhamma. For example, my anger. How often I read the words that the Buddha vowed not to let "wild words" pass his lips, and how often, after a shameful outburts of anger, I vowed yet again not to let wild words pass my lips. And how futile those vows were. I didn't yet understand that there is no self that can control the arising or non-arising of anger. Understanding the way dosa (aversion) arises in a conditioned way - even understanding it intellectually - was so liberating. People are not to blame for the things that they do that cause me anger, and I am not to blame when anger arises. And, lo and behold, ever since I have stopped making vows not to get angry, and instead have started to see anger come and go, the anger is not coming. It will come again, of course - I know that - but there has been a radical drop in the number of what I call "regrettable incidents" in my life. (I keep a journal/diary, so can see how often they come.) There hasn't been one yet this year. (Except at home - I pay more attention to how I behave out in the world with strangers and aquintnaces than how I do at home with my wife - that is changing too.) So anger is being eradicated in a very clear way. Unquestionably. And unquestionably due to Abdhidhamma and the wholseome discussions I have had with this group. Another example. Metta. Yesterday I woke from a very stressful dream. Bad start to the day. I was feeling agitated and frightened about the future. Now, in the past, before coming across Abhidhamma, I would have sat on my cushion and tried to generate metta in a way that comforted me. Or I would have grabbed my books on Buddhism and scrambled to find passages that comforted me. But what I did yesterday was get up and wash the dishes and make breakfast for my wife and I, and as I did, stay with the fear. And I soon felt a kind of calm confidence rise in its place. As I walked to work, there was an interesting incident. I live in Japan, and sometimes see another western foreigner, a man in his 60s, I guess, bicycling around. He is always unfriendly looking. The last time I saw him two months ago he barked at me for biking on the wrong side of the sidewalk. Yesdterday, before I saw him, I heard him bellowing with rage at an elderly woman for blocking his way. Needless to say, I thought "there but for the grace of the Buddha go I" because I used to do the same thing. A moment later, a stream of school children, maybe a hundred of them, paraded by in their yellow caps. Usually these kids cause aversion in me, because they sometimes shout "HARO!" at foreigners, but yesterday, suddenly, I felt a friendly feeling arise. It was metta. Remember that metta that I chose *not* to generate on the cushion? It arose on its own - and a moment of metta that arose on its own felt so much more real than the metta I could have generated out of fear. As I waited for my train, the fear came back, by the way. I knew it would. And I knew it would fall away again, and it did, as I passed a valley full of apartment buildings that always make me feel metta. And so on through the day, wholesome and unwholesome mental moments coming and going. Well, I've been babbling, Yulia. My point was that my beginner's understanding of Abhidhamma and the way mental moments - some wholesome, some unwholesome - come and go is not merely an intellectual exercise. And if that is true for me, it is all the more true for all the other members who have a deeper understanding. Understanding Abhidhamma intellectually is a good beginning, but the real understanding comes in daily life. It's true that most members in this group choose not to share so many aspects of their daily lives, but I'm sure the discussion they have here is only the tip of the iceberg of their living of the Dhamma. Metta, Phil 33978 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:31pm Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Let me summarize for you (I don't claim to understand it fully): > > > The uninstructed worldling perceives X as X (where X = earth, > water, > > fire, etc.). The Sotapanna, Arahant and Buddha directly know X. One > > might think that perceiving X as X is a good thing, but the > > commentary explains that the Sutta means that uninstructed > worldling > > is subject to perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) whereas > the > > Sotapanna, etc. are not. > > Phil: I can see this X as X happening rather thatn directly knowing > X. At this point I can't understanding what it means to directly know > something. Presumably pressing ahead gently, patiently, with knowing > X as X will lead to knowing X directly, in some lifetime. But at > least knowing X as X and Y as Y is better than XXYYXYXSYYXZ as > XYXYXYXXYZXYZ, if you know what I mean. Even if it's intellectual, > focussing on individual mental moments, seeing them more and more > clearly, even intellectually, is liberating. ===== Directly knowing implies mindfulness (sati). Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in conventional language. One may think that he is mindful when he directs his attention to what he is doing or to what is going on around him. That is not the characteristic of sati in the development of insight. Sati in vipassana is mindful of a nama or a rupa which appears, without there being a thought of self who makes an effort or who is directing the attention to an object. When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and before you identify and name it. That is a stage of sati. Sati is a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Terms used to characterize Sati include: "mirror-thought", "non- judgmental observation", "impartial watchfulness", "non-conceptual awareness", "present-time awareness", "non-egoistic alertness", "goalless awareness", "awareness of change" and "participatory observation". People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases after those who have sati. ===== > > Rob: > As an anlogy, perversion of perception is what happens when a > man > > sees a coil of rope in the dark and momentarily perceives it as a > > snake. In an uninstructed worldling, this perversion of perception > is > > the foundation of a perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa). This > is > > what happens when the man reflects on what he has seen and thinks > > that what he has seen is a snake. Perversion of thought is the > > foundation for perversion of view (ditti-vipallasa), the most > serious > > type of perversion. This is what happens when the man is convinced > > that what he has seen is a snake. See the Vipallasa Sutta (AN > IV.49) > > and its commentary for more details. > > Phil: This is interesting, the way the perversion of thought > becomes a perversion of view. I've never thought about that before. > Last night I printed out the honeyball sutta, and read for the first > time about papanca. I wonder if something similar to that is going on > here. I guess this perversion of thought > perversion of view is also > involved in the process of proliferation laid out in the honeyball > sutta. ===== You are exactly correct. I see perversion of view as the foundation for papanca. ===== > I look forward to asking you more about this sort of thing if > we get a chance to meet. My trip has been delayed until July. Hopefully, I will be able to provide you an updated schedule next week. Metta, Rob M :-) 33979 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:36pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Dear Sukin, You know I really like this post, and I appreciate your description of how sutta study may cause the natural arousal of learning and glimpses of the reality of dhammas, also your talk about intellectual understanding and the entire discussion of jhana, breathing, etc. Your description of conventional activities and the paramatha dhammas that lie "behind" such conceptualized experiences and your distinction regarding seeing the "reality" of the meditation states, rather than using them to reach higher mental states, are both noteworthy. I think the post taken as a whole is a very well-rounded description of many aspects of the Buddha's path and I understand a little better some of the differences you emphasize between practices as a vehicle, versus the objects of practice as realities. Still, there is no reason that I see that meditation, taken in the way you describe, cannot be an excellent vehicle for seeing these realities. As for my seeing satipatthana as the fruit of practice, well, I have to admit I find some confusing contradictions there. It doesn't seem that there is any way that I can characterize meditation that allows it to be a ground for satipatthana in the mind of my friends here. You now agree with me in the sense that Buddha did encourage jhana for those in a position to develop it, and that he encouraged others to see the paramatha dhamma arising in any given situation, position or activity. But despite this meditation seems to be a problem. You show how gradual seeds of understanding may be planted by reading the suttas, and this is the same sense in which I mean that satipatthana is the "fruit" of meditation, as it is the fruit of whatever activities cause kusala accumulations. You describe a process with studying sutta in which you just do it with no thought of "having to," but I have no sense that I "have to" meditate. It's just something I am drawn to do, and I understand it in the terms that the Buddha describes it. So where is my problem? Sometime soon I hope to answer your request for a description of the relationship of the dhammas that arise in meditation to satipatthana. For now, I will say that this post of yours is a great contribution, a concise and specific description of how many things of interest to those on the path work. I will spend some time with it and, time and conditions allowing, say more. Thanks for coming back to write and for your generosity. This is a very strong post. Best, Robert Ep. ======================= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep. and All, > > Since you asked about me in another post, I'll respond to this one. :-) > > Rob, I appreciate your giving this matter much consideration and admire > your ability to analyze it as much as you have, also that you manage to > remain open-minded enough to acknowledge and gain something new . > I believe that if you started to more look at the Teachings from the > perspective of the present moment, away from any previous tendency > to think in terms of situations and `things to do', that you will appreciate > more what Nina and others have been saying. It is my own experience > that gradually I began to appreciate Nina's writings more and more as I > began less and less to think in conventional terms with regard to what > the Buddha taught. The habit to confuse conventional reality with > ultimate reality is still very much there, however doubt with regard to > whether or not any prescribed activity was taught by the Buddha with > regard to development of panna decreases increasingly. > > By this of course I don't mean that the Buddha did not encourage Jhana, > including Anapanasati, he obviously saw value in every little kusala and > Jhana after all is the highest form of kusala after vipassana. And as for > Anapanasati, besides being samatha bhavana can also be the basis for > vipassana bhavana. > > Both samatha and vipassana development require a corresponding level > of panna and both can support the other. The former however, does not > directly lead to an increase of the latter, only perhaps by helping to gain > better conditions, whether in the form of favourable rebirth or as > building of character, as in the paramis, (wildly guessing here though :- > ( ). The latter on the other hand, increases the possibility that more of > the former will be developed, that is when kusala or akusala are objects > of satipatthana. So whenever the Buddha talked about jhana and other > forms of kusala, he not only encouraged it, but he also directed the > audience to seeing it for what it is. Those who were developing jhana > and were His disciples, the Buddha taught them about dhammas in > terms of that, in which case he described the stages of jhana to them > with the idea that they might view the mental factors involved > with "insight" and not just practice with the aim of developing higher > states of consciousness. Same goes for Anapanasati, and here the > breath (as a reality), can be the object of insight, in which case the > modern teachings on `breath meditation' is not what the Buddha had in > mind. In both these cases, there is no idea of creating conditions > for `penetration of realities' whether by using `calm' or > by `concentration'. In fact calm and concentration are both to be seen > with insight, otherwise not only "wrong" path factors can be mistaken > for right, but also jhana on its own does not lead one out of samsara, > only vipassana does. > > The very idea of the Satipatthana Sutta is to show us that "all" realities > can be objects of insight. It is obvious that while walking, bending, > eating, turning and so on, there is no jhana citta arising, so obviously > other ordinary cittas are meant to be known. And surely the Buddha > wouldn't direct our attention to `standing', `walking' and `lying down' > postures, since these are not realities. These same conventional > activities have so far been the very objects around which `self view' > revolved and increased, satipatthana is meant to draw one's attention to > the paramattha dhammas which lie behind all these normal everyday > experiences. This is so that gradually, it will be seen with insight that > what we have so far taken for real, is not, and what is, are the > dhammas taught in the Abhidhamma. > > You agree that without knowing in theory what these paramattha > dhammas might be, none of us would ever come upon right mindfulness > and right view. The best accumulations can only take us to detect more > and more subtle akusala of the sense sphere and seek not to be > influenced by them. But "wrong view" exists even if one has mastered > the Jhanas, unless one has heard and understood the Teachings. Yet > even `intellectual' right view does more in terms of drawing us away > from samsara, than even the highest jhanas, because even if just a > little, it comes with a degree of detachment from any idea of `self' > developing. Hence the teaching of Anatta must be applied from the very > beginning. > > One thing I was trying to draw your attention to previously, was > that `intellectual understanding' is a level of panna, a reality. Moreover, > every moment being either kusala or akusala (excepting the vipaka and > bhavanga), it is important that you not be influenced by conventional > ideas of meditation, practice or study. > > You wrote: > > I have never understood how the reader and studier of suttas does > not > > invoke a doer who will achieve enlightenment through gradually > coming > > to understand the suttas thereby creating conditions for future kusala > > results just as much as the meditator does. Sukin proposed that the > > difference is that the sutta studier does not expect it to enlighten > > him, but only give him intellectual understanding which will then set > > the ground for conditions that will lead to enlightenment that the > > sutta reader does not attempt to control, and so it does not invoke > > the idea of a self who is doing it, but this does not make too much > > sense to me. If you are reading a sutta to create any kind of > > conditions that will eventually lead to enlightenment, or you are > > meditating with the idea that you will create conditions that will > > eventually lead to enlightenment, you are doing the exact same thing, > > only with a different activity. > > I don't remember what exactly I wrote, but definitely didn't mean to > convey the above impression. > When I read, I have no idea that this is something I *must* do. I read > as part of my daily activity, and when I do, there arises sometimes > kusala cittas, including intellectual understanding, but mostly akusala. > When I read for example about the four factors to enlightenment, it > makes sense to me, and I believe that a level of correct understanding > is involved. And this will condition on it's own without any idea of `having > to do', a propensity to listen to and read more dhamma. There is no > need to think, `this is what I must do and that the activity will lead me to > enlightenment'. Sometimes I read with the intention of `learning', > perhaps no different from anyone wishing to learn about anything, and > while doing so there is chanda and perhaps this will condition some > wise reflection or even a little glimpse of the arising dhamma. This may > be an instance of satipatthana and therefore a moment of `practice'. > This contrasts with when the understanding is purely > intellectual, `pariyatti', but as in the above example, this level of panna > is what conditions the patipatti panna. > > Rob, the fact that you see satipatthana as the `fruit of practice' is > because you still haven't really got the hang of clearly differentiating > dhammas from conventional activities. You suppose that `formal > meditation' leads to satipatthana, but I say, `identify what are the > dhammas involved when you meditate'. As I said earlier, there are only > dhammas, and these are either kusala or akusala. I have described to > you the relationship between the dhammas of `study' and `practice'. Can > you identify the relationship between the dhammas of what you > call `meditation' and `satipatthana'? > > I set out to respond to specific points of your post, but unexpectedly a > different post has come to be. But I will wait for your response to write > more. ;-) > > Metta, > Sukin. 33980 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:50pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep > > Thanks for your detailed thoughts which I am still digesting. > > You wrote: I have never understood how the reader and studier of > suttas does not > > invoke a doer who will achieve enlightenment through gradually > coming > > to understand the suttas thereby creating conditions for future > kusala > > results just as much as the meditator does. Sukin proposed that the > > difference is that the sutta studier does not expect it to enlighten > > him, but only give him intellectual understanding which will then > set > > the ground for conditions that will lead to enlightenment that the > > sutta reader does not attempt to control, and so it does not invoke > > the idea of a self who is doing it, but this does not make too much > > sense to me. If you are reading a sutta to create any kind of > > conditions that will eventually lead to enlightenment, or you are > > meditating with the idea that you will create conditions that will > > eventually lead to enlightenment, you are doing the exact same > thing, > > only with a different activity. > > I do confess that the point you make above has perplexed me in the > past and continues to do so. In case you hadn't realised, I am > highly qualified to give unqualified opinions - and here comes > another one! (-: As an ex-Catholic, I know only too well how oft- > repeated prayers and rituals quickly lose any mental force. I also > have a memory of being told that the Buddha did not allow singing > because people would focus on the nice tune and not the content of > the "Dhamma song". It seems to me that this is one area where sutta > study has an edge on meditation - I suspect that meditation can far > more easily slip into a happy ritual and I can well imagine the > Buddha warning clearly against this. Just as he clearly warned > against the Dhamma studiers who "grasp the snake by the coils" and > simply reinforce wrong view. Each different method has its own traps! > > Best wishes > Andrew Absolutely Andrew. There are massive traps in meditation, including getting addicted to trance states, bliss states, etc. That is why detachment is so important. But we also shouldn't cast aside the highly refined happiness that Buddha stated would come with greater insight and awareness. We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but must be vigilant to tell the difference between refined and delusive states, even though we may not be able to do so at first. Keep in mind that Buddha was willing to recommend cultivation of jhanas even though these dangers exist. I like the Abhidhamma point that we should regard the meditation states as dhammas to be understood rather than becoming attracted to the states themselves. That is a nice way to promote detachment even while the kusala effects of such states are taking place. But "dry insight" may have its dangers too. We may talk all day about paramatha dhammas without seeing one, and we may mistake intellectual knowledge for direct insight. Mental clarity can also be very compelling and seem like what it is not. So like you say, traps everywhere. House on fire, no where to run. Best, Robert Ep. 33981 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:00pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi again Rob Ep > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > wrote: > > > > I'm pretty sure that most of us interpet the suttas according to > their > > pre-existing beliefs about what they mean, rather than come at them > > fresh. I'm sure I do, and I'm pretty sure that this may be a part > of > > the human condition. What it may take to gain wisdom as opposed to > > developing a long-term view which accumulates evidence and gets more > > support over time via one's own interpretations would be a pretty > > significant thread in its own right, and one worth developing. > > I agree. I have the impression that, for example, Jon and Sarah > think you should constantly check your interpretation of the sutta > against pivotal teachings like anatta and conditionality and "mould" > the interpretation in a way that is consistent with those teachings. > This makes sense to me and is akin to a judge reading the words of a > statute so that it accords with public policy (in a case where a > literal reading would produce results out of kilter with the overall > intent). The "framework" is the determining factor not the "nitty > gritty" of what the words appear to mean on face value. This is good. I like your analogy very much, as well as Sarah and Jon's admonition as you report it. > > But it is when we think that our interpretation of the suttas is > *not* > > based on any predisposition, but is merely the truth, that we get > into > > problems. If we are stuck on our own interpretation as being the > > truth, then we are somewhat limited in the extent to which we can > grow > > and learn. > > Good point. Reminds me of those suttas wherein the Buddha describes > monks who are easy to correct and ones that are hard to correct. What do you think? Are we hard monks or easy? > RE: There's another way to look at it, > > and that is that once one is on the true path, one should only allow > > influences from those who are also on that path but who are further > > along and are thus a bit wiser. That may also be a more correct > model > > than mine. > > This sort of begs the question, doesn't it? If I could tell who was > on the true path, I'd have a good idea about the true path already. > Perhaps at this point, we should revert to conditionality and the > present moment. If true wisdom arises, it helps condition more in > the future without any guarantee that it will continue continuously > moment-after-moment thereafter. We need to know that each moment is > a different collection of ultimate realities. We need to have an > idea of how things work on the ultimate level and let that knowledge > flavour our conventional lives. That's nicely put. This has been a long process for me > and still goes on! At first I thought that knowledge of ultimate > reality was meant to make one turn away from conventional reality. > But I found that I can't do without conventional reality and I > presently believe that the idea is to see conventional reality > through the prism of knowledge of ultimate reality. This, for > example, doesn't debar meditation practice but requires it to be > approached with clarity some may find hard to bring (meself > included). That's what I think. I would be a lot happier to hear that meditation must be practiced with this understanding, than that it should not be practiced at all. > Enough rambling! Not at all. Best, Robert Ep. 33982 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:06pm Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Andrew, Rob Ep and Ken H > > I think your comments are quite appropriate here, Andrew. As we have all > come to realise, there is nothing in the suttas that is as explicit as we > might like to see on this vexed question. So it is a matter of making the > best of indirect references. > > Below are a couple of references to 'practising in accordance with the > dhamma' from the Samyutta Nikaya (trans Bhikkhu Bodhi), with footnotes > quoting from the commentary. ... Dear Jon, Thanks for these excerpts and explanations. I am surprised to find that "revulsion" rather than 'detachment" or "understanding" is recommended towards the five aggregates. Why is revulsion necessary do you think? I always thought it was an important aspect of the Buddha's teaching that both attraction and aversion should be released, and revulsion is the most powerful form of aversion. Do you have an explanation for this? I find it perplexing, as I always thought the Buddha taught that aversion was really a form of attachment to the object thus rejected. Best, Robert Ep 33983 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Brahmaviharas, no 8, Equanimity. Brahmavihåras, no 8 Equanimity We read in the ³Atthasåliní ² about the brahmavihåra of Equanimity ((Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 193): ³Equanimity has the characteristic of evolving the mode of neutrality as regards beings; its function is seeing equality in beings; its manifestation is quieting both aversion and attachment; its proximate cause is seeing the heritage of the occurring kamma as ŒBeings are the property of their kamma¹. By its influence they will attain to pleasure, or be free from pain, or not fall from the prosperity already acquired. Its consummation is the quieting of aversion and of attachment; its failure is the production of an unintelligent indifference which is based on the home life.² The Brahmavihåra of equanimity is not indifferent feeling, it is the sobhana cetasika tatramajjhattatå, evenmindedness, that accompanies each kusala citta. When it is a Brahma- vihåra its object is living beings. Quote from Acharn Sujin¹s Perfections: As we have seen, the Atthasåliní compares the Brahma vihåras with a baby who needs loving care, a sick child who needs compassion, an adolescent whom parents wish to continue enjoying the good things of life, and a child towards whom parents can have equanimity since is grown up and can manage his own affairs. Parents should not try to interfere too much with the life of their child or be too anxious about him when he is grown up. The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can be applied in our socal life. We may try to help others with loving kindness and compassion, but sometimes people are beyond help. When we meet someone who has lost his or her spouse we cannot help this person by having sorrow. When we consider that kamma brings its appropriate result, there can be conditions for equanimity instead of sorrow. We may then be able to speak the right words with true compassion and kindness. The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can also prevent us from worry and anxiety about the health of someone who is close to us. Nobody can prevent kamma from producing its result when it is the right time. The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can also prevent us from being overly involved in other people¹s lives and problems. The Buddha said that the monks should not spend too much time in the village with other people. He did not want them to be overly involved in others lest there be many akusala cittas. The laylife is different from the monk¹s life but we can apply the Vinaya in our own situation. If we are overly involved in other people¹s affairs there are bound to be many akusala cittas: we may have attachment to them or we may cling to our own efforts of helping them. We may be disappointed when we cannot help them or when they do not react as we expected. We may have aversion because of other people¹s contrarious behaviour or unwholesome deeds. When we remember that akusala cittas both of ourselves and others arise because defilements have been accumulated during endless lives, it will condition equanimity. Lodewijk and I find that my old father is a source of inspiration for the development of all four brahmavihåras. When we see that his body is every day decaying more and that also his memory fails him, compassion can arise and we try to help him with loving kindness. When he enjoys seeing his garden, or others praise him, we can have sympathetic joy. However, there are also moments that his mind is very disturbed, or that he cannot sit up straight or hold his drinking cup. Then we need to develop the Brahma vihåra of equanimity: what has to happen has to happen and it all occurs because of the appropriate conditions. If we do not develop equanimity there is likely to be aversion because of unpleasant sights and smells or difficult situations. The Brahmaviharas are most beneficial in our everyday social life, when we are with other people or thinking of other people. We think more often with akusala cittas than with kusala cittas, but the Brahmavihåras can condition kusala in action speech and thought. They can be gradually developed together with satipatthåna so that we come to understand that kusala is not self and does not belong to us. Acharn Sujin says at the end of her book on ³Mettå²: All four Brahmavihåras are essential for our social life in the world. ***** Nina (Conclusion) 33984 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi Rob Ep, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > S: ;-) One way, one path - that of satipatthana. A moment of right > > awareness and understanding now of a reality appearing is the > > practice in accord with the Dhamma. No self at all. > R:> If no one is doing anything, why is it called "practice?" Isn't this > kind of misleading?? .... S: Practice may be used as a translation of ‘pa.tipatti’ (as in pariyatti[learning]. pa.tipatti [practice], pa.tivedha[realization]). I think your question and comment is a very good one and it takes a lot of careful consideration, reflection, awareness and understanding to really know what satipatthana or practice really means. I think the way ‘practice’ is often used is very misleading and even if it is used correctly by the wise or in the texts, we are bound to misunderstand or be misled if there’s any idea of self when we hear or read the teachings. .... R:> I like the Sutta. I wonder if Nina or someone else could tell us if > B. Bodhi's translation is literal when he says: "There is no more for > this state of being." I take it "state of being" is a substitute for > what would normally be translated as the "person." .... Rob, as no Pali experts have replied, let me give you my best attempt at a literal translation of the last line (see*below for Bodhi’s full transl of last lines): "khii.naa jaati, vusita”n brahmacariya”n, kata”n kara.niiya”n naapara”n itthatta ayaati pajaanaamii" ti? “destroyed is birth, the holy live has been lived, what should be done is done, no further becoming (after) this life to come, I realize” [i.e arahantship]. [corrections welcome] ..... To repeat from the sutta, for the last lines, filling in a few blanks this time: "Further, bhikkhus, having heard a sound with the ear......Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internallly, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally’; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: ‘there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.’ Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?”. “No, venerable sir.” “Aren’t these things to be understood by seeing them with wisdom?” “Yes, venerable sir.” "This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it- can declare final knowledge thus: *"Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being." ***** Metta, Sarah p.s I enjoyed the ‘extremely long and contentious’ and I’m quite sure there won’t have been any offence. As you say, we all get our ideas ‘greatly challenged’ after all and this is a good test in itself;-). As for your ‘Sarah paraphrase’ about confidence in the Buddha’s teachings and so on - I don’t see this as ‘goal orientation’ but of practice as defined above and seeing the value in understanding present realities. If not, we’re back to expectations and clinging to results again as I see it with the accumulation of yet more clinging to self. After all, we don’t need a Buddha to help us with that. Looking f/w to Ken H’s reply to the rest;-) Glad to see your other posts just now, but not yet read. ========= 33985 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Away Hi Howard, - -- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I will be away from home, and probably without internet access, > from > early Sunday a.m. (June 20) to the following Sunday evening (June 27). I > will > respond after the 27th to emails directed to me between the 20th and > 27th. .... S: thx for answering my curiosity in another post - I know that even when you visit family in Texas you still have internet access so I was wondering.....Both Jon and I wish you and Rita a lovely holiday. It sounds like a great retirement treat for you both. If you have any meaningful discussions, however simple (like Nina and Lodewijk), perhaps you can make notes and share with us on return. Are you taking any Dhamma reading? Maybe one of Nina’s books like BDL or ADL which are easy to carry? Or maybe some of your letters here to share with Rita and to ask for her comments? In any case, I hope it’s a relaxing holiday with plenty of food for wise reflection on those high sees;-) It’ll seem quiet without you for a week! Just a few brief comments on your comments to Rob Ep on some comments of mine;-) - - It is a gradual, very gradual path and there really can be right understanding and awareness now. What I described as practice or satipatthana is not just a direct realization at enlightenment and therefore merely theoretical, but it is the way that such understanding can grow. If there is the right beginning again and again now, the gradual path is developed and the adze handle is gradually being worn away. Cetana (right intention) is not an eightfold path factor but a cetasika that ‘directs’ other cittas at every moment of the day. You express concern that if there isn’t some special directing, there is ‘the danger of our not doing what needs to be done’. Howard, in your experience, does more understanding of anatta -- of seeing and visible object and all the other realities we’ve been discussing here -- really lead to less ‘doing of what needs to be done’? My experience is the opposite. Understanding of realities more and more precisely and clearly as anatta -- however much of a kindergarden stage this may be for us -- leads naturally to greater confidence in the value of all kinds of wholesome states and the danger of all kinds of unwholesome states, particularly to the danger of self-views. It naturally leads to more metta, to more sympathy, joy in others good fortune and equanimity, for example. There is more awareness of the dangers of near and far enemies likely to sneak in all the time -- and they're certainly not theoretical either;-). More precious still is that any development of understanding leads to more detachment from what is conditioned at this very moment and this is the only way it can develop further. As you rightly stressed, ‘in reality no one *is* doing anything, at any time. Cetana and all the other mental states arise by conditions and perform their functions accordingly. No one can push or direct them to be any other way. Instead of being pessimistic as some would see the truths, they are in fact liberating. Bon Voyage! Metta, Sarah ====== 33986 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? - Extremely Long and Contentious Hi Rob Ep, Thanks for another Rob Epic post. ------------------------------- > This is a very long post, apologies for being perhaps upsetting, > ------------------- Try as I might, I can't find anything to take offence at. Towards the end, your language does get a little over the top but you have been driven to it! :-) --------------------------- KH: > > I have just read Sukin's reply < > and I want to repeat something he said: "I believe that if you started to look at the Teachings more from the perspective of the present moment, away from any previous tendency to think in terms of situations and `things to do', that you will appreciate more what Nina and others have been saying." > > REp: > I think it's a mistake to assume that I don't have a "present- moment perspective" just because I have the sad fate to support something that is out of favor around here. > -------------------------------- I agree. And the operative word in Sukin's advice was "more:" We all need to look at the teachings `more' from the perspective of the present moment and `less' from the perspective of situations and things to do. -------------------------------- REp: > but meditation too takes place in the moment! > -------------------------------- Yes, real meditation (bhavana) takes place in the moment. But formal meditation is a concept (a thing to do in a situation) – in the reality taught by the Buddha, it doesn't take place at all. -------------------- . . . REp > As I think Sarah recently said, or at least something to this effect, if we did not believe that the guidance of the Buddha would lead us to enlightenment, we would not engage with the Buddhist path at all. And it is our faith and trust in the Buddha and the path he lays out that leads us to engage with the Buddhist path and take the perspective of the Buddhist path. ------------------------- That should be understood from the `present moment perspective.' Confidence, understanding and detachment are realities that can arise, in the present moment, to experience an arisen reality. ------------------------ REp > Now, this is me speaking: This is a goal orientation. It is *not* just focussed on the present moment; it is conceptual and faith-based and headed towards the future. > ------------------------ Things to do and situations! That's fine if it's what you want, but, as Sukin has said, it won't help you `appreciate more what Nina and others [Sarah in this instance] have been saying.' ----------------------- REp > Of course we continually re-group and take our understanding and point it towards the present moment. --------------------- This is true, but from the PM perspective, there is no we who regroup – there are only namas and rupas arising now and capable of being experienced by sati and panna. (Conditions willing.) I have just snipped a section (it was a long post, after all) that demonstrated your accurate grasp of the Abhidhamma. So there is no reason why you shouldn't see the other side of the formal practice debate. It's just a matter - for you as for all of us - of bringing everything back to the present moment. ------------------------- REp > Sure, someone can ruin it by misunderstanding the teachings and using their sutta study to keep asserting more and more sense of self, but you still think that on the whole this is a good activity and it is what the Buddha said we should be doing, so it is fine. But when it comes to meditation, <. . .> you call it "formal practice" an disallow that it can lead to kusala accumulations. ---------------------- The Dhamma is a teaching -- the Buddha teaches and we pay wise attention. The practice of concentrating on a chosen object does not enter the equation. --------------------- <. . . .> REp > but if one diligently studies the suttas with the hope of enlightenment, this is just fine, and is not a "formal practice" with the same deadly results. I don't get it. ------------ Coming back to the present moment: if there is right understanding, here and now, what are its causes? There are three causes: conventionally speaking they are, `association with the wise, hearing the Dhamma and wise consideration of the Dhamma.' But forget about conventionally speaking: don't feel obliged to do any of those things or create any of those situations. Just understand, here and now, the three causes of right understanding. ---------------- <. . .> REp: > I am coming to the conclusion that every wonderful kusala activity has the potential to become a "formal practice" and express wrong view. So I guess it has to do with what view we are holding, not what activity we are doing. Do you disagree with this? -------------------- I agree with it. Of the two, only the view is real: the activity (the thing to do) is not ultimately real, and therefore, it is neither kusala nor akusala. -------------------- REp: > Or are you saying that com study is immune from the development of such a view? -------------------- Ultimately, Dhamma study is a kusala moment of hearing, considering or learning. If we believe it is a thing to do in a situation, then there is wrong view. ------------- REp: > Perhaps if you do think that, it would make com study all the more pernicious as wrong view will be sure to creep in when you least expect it. ------------- That sounds right to me. -------------- KH: > > As you say, there is no point in relying on personal affidavits: we need an interpretation of the Dhamma < > that is consistent with the entire Tipitaka. > > REp > How about something that is actually said in the suttas for a good start? Interpretations are perilous. I know there is a tendency to distrust the obvious bald meaning of what the Buddha actually says, but that is where I would go to find out what in fact he said! > -------------- Obviously, there is nothing wrong with the suttas, but each of us interprets them differently. With the Abhidhamma, which was also taught by the Buddha, there is less margin for error. One of the most rewarding aspects of Dhamma study is to see how the suttas relate back to the Abhidhamma. -------------- REp: > So: what is the Abhidhamma interpretation of something the Buddha said that leads directly to the conclusion that breathing meditation is a "formal practice" that should be filed under "wrong view." I await your report with great anticipation. 1/ Quote from Sutta 2/ Com'y on same Sutta by Abhidhamma commentator. 3/ Your interpretation and conclusion regarding meditation as akusala "formal practice." Three easy steps. > ------------- I've just read the whole Tipitaka (joke), and there is no mention of formal practice. There is mention of `mindfulness of breathing' but only as a type of jhana absorption. Even then, `mindfulness of breathing' does not seem to be something one practises as a means of developing something. Rather, it is the occupation of an elite group of people who, having already developed kusala consciousness to an incredibly high degree, then concentrate that consciousness on an object - in this case, the breath. I'll leave it now before I cause any more exasperation. Remember; the magic solution is to see the teachings more from the perspective of the present moment. In that way, we appreciate more of what our DSG friends are saying. Take, for example, this quote from Nina's "Perseverance in the Dhamma:" "We may be discouraged that panna and sati seldom arise and that we are thinking of people, things and events most of the time. But thinking is a reality, and if we do not realize it as such we take it for self." Pure gold! Kind regards, Ken H 33987 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 ) for clarification Dear Sarah, Thanks for your mail reminding me that there is a reply on Thursday. Now I find it and reply. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo, .... S: Good point! perhaps we're helpfing to play a small role in importing a few key Pali terms in our discussions here. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Examples : Citta can now be understood. Kamma can now be understood. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: It may be helpful for this discussion, so pls add anytime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I forward threads on Kamma, there will be controversial points. But I would try at a time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: (You also suggested adding the Abhidammattha Sangaha in Pali which is a good idea, but I think we'd need English translations;-) Perhaps you could start another series after cittas working through it - a few lines of Pali/Eng and your comments which can be brief. There was some talk before about using this as a text here.) .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It would be a hard job. I would need to work full time in Dhamma to do so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: I don't think we can say that every citta with lobha like now when we look at the screen is capable of conditioning vipaka. it accumulates and can be natural decisive support and co-nascent kamma condition,but not every javana citta acts as asynchronous kamma condition. In the Patthana under kamma condition as I said, it differentiates (as I understand) for kusala and akusala cittas and states under these two kinds of kamma condition. Nina and I have discussed this before at length with Rob M (who agrees with you) and it's not easy to resolve. I think the reason we distinguish between natural decisive support and kamma conditions and between the 3 rounds (va.t.ta) of kilesa, kamma and vipaka is because not all kilesa act as kamma capable of bringing results. Otherwise, why not 2 rounds? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All these matters are complex matters and would take time to have a rough idea on them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >I do not prefer your usage there. Nina separately >posted a reply to another topic but included 'patha' that I talked to >you. Thanks Nina. What I am saying is that if javanas are not > arahatta's javana or if they are not kiriya javana, they always have > kamma. If lobha, there always is kamma connected with it. ... S: yes, but not always kamma patha. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. But always kamma. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At the time > > of arising this kamma becomes vipaka. If they never give rise to > > vipaka, then all those kamma that do not reach to the surface are > > called 'Ahosai Kamma'. .... S: Yes. But while kamma patha may be ahosi kamma and not bring a result if any of the conditions required are lacking, not all kamma is capable in the first place of ever bringing a result. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:For example in Vism X1X, 16 it refers to the fourfold classification of kamma as i) productive (janaka-kamma), ii) consolidating (upatthambhaka), iii) frustrating (upapii.laka) and iv) supplanting ( upaghaataka). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In my thread on Kamma at triplegem, I used different English words for janaka, upatthambhaka, upapilaka, and upaghataka kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... I understand and agree with all the other points and your wise comments on kamma. All other points were well-settled here too;-). Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah for your good communication and encouragement. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33988 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:52am Subject: Stealing (was: Bodhi: The Jhaanas .....) Hi Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, all, > > Thank you for the assistance with the sutta refs. The first one > remained a mystery though, until Steve's post arrived. .... S: Yes, I was glad for his assistance - in my rush, I’d read the first two references as one. .... > Regarding the cockatoos. Your 'intention' was to prevent what you > considered stealing of chicks from their parents. > I wonder under what circumstances taking babies from a nest > isn't 'taking what is not given'? [I mean, I know there are times > in every mother's life when she might fleetingly consider giving the > occasional child away-usually between the ages of two and three > years with humans. :-).] > Maybe if the parent bird was dead, and the intention was to care > for the little ones? .... S: Hmmm..... I think one would have a hard time detecting any good motives in this case but what would you say about giving away puppies (taken from their mother) as another example where nothing is quite as simple as we’d like to think? .... >Or if the 'takers' were government officials > responsible for relocating them? ... S: I started chatting with them to check this out, but clearly not... ... > Did John give his reasons why he > felt there was the possibility it wasn't stealing? .... S: I had mentioned calling the police and it was with his legal hat on that he said it might not be against the law.... Also, he suggested many indigenous New Territories locals consider the wildlife at their door-steps to be their property and so in these cases there might not be any intention or idea of stealing. (I’m also thinking of Azita’s example before of picking flowers in a park when one doesn’t have any idea it’s not allowed.) What Jon kindly didn’t remind me was that a few weeks ago when I found a baby turtle struggling in the sea and looking very defenceless (I forget if I mentioned it), I seriously considered bringing it home with the mistaken idea that it was a fresh water pet that someone had left on the beach. Luckily, I found out that it was in the right place and helped it swim out instead. I’ll look forward to your further comments. As with all the other livelihood and precept issues, it will of course come down to momentary intentions. Btw, Jon’s comment about my unwise actions in confronting (however politely) the cockatoo baby-snatchers was with regard to the risk I was taking at interfering with their livelihood. .... > Glad to hear the croc was caught. Where is he now? .... S: She has a temporary home -- a farm -- where she’s sunbathing but on hunger-strike. Still, according to the Qld expert, a month’s hunger-strike is no problem. .... > And, tell me, Sarah ... did the snake 'gulp'like the one in Sri > Lanka when you were diligently sitting in meditation? :-) :-) .... S: Ouch! Metta, Sarah p.s Tipitak index is back in action - a great site for those not familiar with it. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html ====== 33989 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry! (Narrator): Toronto - Canada´s second City and name of Masked Man´s Indian partner... That´s reminds me a post of Rob Epstein about if Buddha sponsored true aversion about mundane tratcs. Gautama always stressed the necessity for everyone to tread up the Middle Path...but sometimes,mainly at the passages concerning the Entry of Stream, the Sotapani must erradicate wrong views and doubts of all Prompted and un-prompted states of conscience. That creates de necessary detachment for the next steps, Sakadagami and Anagami... But in what degree is such detachment a form of aversion and repulsion - Akusala states of mind ? (Narrator): While Larry wonders about the Akusala aspects of life contemplating the high pines covered with silver snow at the Northern canadian woods, the trumpet call of the RCMP sounds at distance giving to all creatures in the forest a reassuring feeling: the brave Mounties are near!!! Meanwhile... (Larry) > What in the world are you doing in northern Canada??? (Ícaro):... I am not fond of Toronto...Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > "(Narrator): Northern of Canada, where men are really men and women > too...with the beautiful canadian sun fading down over the River Cayuga > sparkling golden beams of light to all landscape,the marigolds blotting > the air with its scent Ícaro is punctuating all the good features of > Kusala to Larry (that hadn't get yet his come-uppance)..." 33990 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:12am Subject: Vital - we're here!! (was: Away) Dear Vital, In addition to the very kind and supportive message which RobM & Philip wrote to you here, please also look at the following messages saved under the following heading from the archives in U.P.: Isolated? Lonely? Unloved? Miserable? 29775, 29925, 29928, 29932, 29937, 29942 (if the hyperlinks don’t show up, just key in the numbers of the past posts on the DSG home-page). Most of them were written to another friend who was also having a very difficult time after a partner left him. If you follow the threads at the ends of the posts, you’ll find further helpful messages too. Vital, whatever our family and relationship situation, we’re really all alone - alone with our thoughts, feelings, perceptions and so on. The real problems we have -- the ignorance, attachments, aversions and so on -- are the same whether we have a happy partnership or not. We’ve all lost partners over and over and over again through our countless lifetimes and will continue to do so. Now is our chance to look at the real roots of our suffering. Please let us know whether any of our comments are of any help and ask any questions. (AndyW, if you’re still reading posts, pls let us know how you’re getting on these days and whether you have any advice for Vital)> Metta, Sarah p.s I hope you can also find a crisis support group or counsellor where you live as well to help you through this difficult time. ================================= 33991 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:13am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, [...] > Directly knowing implies mindfulness (sati). > > Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in conventional > language. One may think that he is mindful when he directs his > attention to what he is doing or to what is going on around him. That > is not the characteristic of sati in the development of insight. Sati > in vipassana is mindful of a nama or a rupa which appears, without > there being a thought of self who makes an effort or who is directing > the attention to an object. > > When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting instant > of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and before > you identify and name it. That is a stage of sati. Sati is a softly > flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest > of reality, not separate from it. > > Terms used to characterize Sati include: "mirror-thought", "non- > judgmental observation", "impartial watchfulness", "non-conceptual > awareness", "present-time awareness", "non-egoistic > alertness", "goalless awareness", "awareness of change" > and "participatory observation". > > People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases after > those who have sati. Hi Rob, Hi Phil, so sati is only possible when the self is dropped out of the picture? anything else would be just an attention (sanna -> manisikara?) of confused self? metta, Agrios 33992 From: Philip Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:30am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt.9 Degrees of sati Hello all. In the following section of my talk with Rob K, we brushed on different degrees of sati. I'd been wondering if ordinary, common mindfulness was perhaps under-appreciated in K Sujin's teaching and Nina's books, with its emphasis on sati with paramattha dhammas as object being a rare experience that can only rise very occasionally in daily life. I'm not wondering about that so much anymore - I can understand that there are different degrees of sati. Nevertheless, here's the talk as it happened **** Rob: Drive is only one aspect of the many conditions that are needed, you know. In the western world we tend to emphasize ambition and drive and Buddhists bring that into their Buddhist practice. They think "if I?fm having lots of drive to get to Nibbana, or whatever, that's all I need. They emphasize that. That's like ignorance of all the other conditions that are happening, you know? Right effort is not strained in any way. The straining is not right effort. Phil: Yeah, there was a lot of straining, I guess last year. I'd try to fix my mind on an image. I'd walk in the park, fix my mind on this image that I got from Thich Nhat Hahn's book.( Imagine oneself as a flower, giving freshness, a practice of dana.) I'd say, "OK, I?fm going to go around the park three times and fix my mind on this image." Rob: So common amoung western Buddhists. So instead of Buddhists becoming this free, spontaneous type of person, that is ready (?) for the moment, Buddhists become these very tense Nibbana-ambitoned type people. I mean, I was like that for years too. You almost become the opposite way to what it should be. Phil: I was interested in the way you use "insight" as a verb. This is from one of the Useful Posts. ?gActually, when vipassana has been developed it doesn?ft matter so much what pbject contacts the sense. It can all be insighted.?h That would be the verb that vipassana's all about. Rob: Yeah. Phil: Pentrated? Rob: Penetrated is probably a little stronger meaning than what I mean. There are many levels of insight. I'm talking about insight as the very weakest kind of understanding of nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Phil: But penetrating realities is what the Buddha did, right? And it got me thinking. It seems to me that there is (in Nina's books) true sati and then there is, on the other hand, this idea of trying to be mindful, but it seems to me that there is a kind of mindfulness or awareness that arises, surely in a conditioned way, that is not true sati but it also is not trying to be mindful. So sometimes I feel that that kind of awareness as a more common experience is underappreciated. Rob: On DSG? By Nina? By all of us? Phil: Nina, I guess, since I read her books. And I don't mean that in a critical way. I'm just confused. For example, Ajahn Chah said "if you're without sati for 30 minutes you're crazy for 30 minutes" So the idea that sati is a much more commonly experienced thing. But I know that there are degrees of sati. Rob: Yeah, there are different degrees and types of sati. First, I would say the normal person is without sati almost all the type. They have sama lobha, normal lobha, almost all the time. Maybe Ajahn Chah is talking about extreme asama lobha. I mean, if there were extreme asama lobha you'd be running around having sex with your sister and killing people. That's maybe what he was talking about. Extremes. But I don't think normal people have sati that often. They only have sati when they're thinking about dhamma or they're genuinely being kind to someone, or when they're being generous. Phil: Allan Driver, I'm sorry I forget his ordinated name, in the conversations that are recorded with Khun Sujin and Sarah and him, someone said "one moment of sati in one lifetime is enough." Rob: The type of sati that he's talking about, and that Nina's talking about in not just sati when there's kindness and generosity, I sati of satipatthana and that type of sati's about breaking down the sense of self. And that type of sati only occurs in the Buddhist sasana. Phil: Sasana? Rob: The Buddha's teaching. Only when a Budda's teaching arises. When we talk about awareness, or when the commentaries talk about awareness, most of us think about "well, I know I?fm standing up, I know that I have lobha. I know that I?fm angry." Everyone knows when they're angry. But they take it as their anger. "I" am angry. "I" am standing up. And that is not sati of satipatthana, because it's still "I" Phil: The other day I was walking through the train station, and the awareness came to me, I am walking through the train station, and I feel my feet on the floor. Rob: What the satipatthana or was it just imitation satipatthana? Phil: I didn?ft intend to have it. It just came to me. Rob: Dogs don't intend to have it too, but still they sometimes think, "I?fm going to see my girlfriend." It doesn't mean it's satipatthana. It doesn't mean it's not either. I don't know. Phil: Well, I don't mean it was satipatthana. But I wonder about the value of, if there's this penetration into realities, whether there's a pressing - I call it gently pressing - and developing an appreciation for this very conventional, ordinary kind of mindfulness, whether that's something that could be shared with beginners, say in Japan, and whether it has any value. Rob: Well, I teach them about what's there, 6 sense doors, and there's no one there, you know. That's what sati's about. Phil: Get right there. Don't hang around the entry gate. Rob: Not in my idea. Otherwise there's too much possibility for confusion. That's my opinion. 33993 From: Philip Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:57am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 10 Seeing water and people Hello all Rob K and I were sitting next to a fountain as we talked. I'd been wondering if people who have developed insight into rupa and nama see water differently as a result of that: Phil: There's this water here. What happens when you develop the understanding of rupa. When you see water, do you see it differently than the ordinary person? I mean, does it happen all the time? Just occasionally? Rob: When there's awareness I'd say, yeah, things are different. They're the same, but they're different. There's a famous Zen saying. "At first there's mountains and rivers. Then there's no mountains and rivers. And then finally there's mountains and rivers again. And it's true. I'd say that's the way it must be. Phil: And that's the way it is with this idea that in the absolute sense there are no people. Which people misunderstand. You do have to reach a stage where there are no people, in the absolute sense, then your understanding brings you back to...there are people there. Rob: There's no people in the ultimate sense. It dones't mean you don't communicate and have feelings and emotions. Phil: I'm sure in your years of practice you've come across people who understood that in the wrong way. I think you mention here (some notes I'd taken from Useful Posts) a woman who could no longer recognize her husband. Rob: This viapassana teach that told me that when she was practicing vipassana deeply, her husband came to see her and she couldn't recongize her husband. I mean, that's sort of...not the way I see it at all. I mean, understanding about nama and rupa comes in very quickly, and then goes, and comes and goes. The Buddha had understanding all the time, but he could still talk to Ananda. He knew who Ananda was. 33994 From: Egbert Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:19am Subject: Now, what? Hi everyone, The following may be clumsily written, but it is not about the words. It is about the experience. When the mind is directed to the study of the present moment, the now, it turns out it is already gone. "Now" is as much a concept as "kusala" and has no properties other than not being there. The study of the present moment, with the intention of finding it, is self-defeating. Awareness of the present moment has died with it. Awareness occurs with viewlessness. Awareness is just awareness. Herman 33995 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:29am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > out of the picture? > anything else would be just an attention (sanna -> manisikara?) > of confused self? Let me lay a foundation here by being precise with my terminology and then put the ball back in your court to continue the discussion. Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. A Sotapanna uproots the latent view of self, so it is not possible for a Sotapanna to have a mental state that includes attachment to a view of self. In all mental states that are wholesome, there must be sati (mindfulness). In all mental states that are wholesome, there cannot be attachment to a view of self. If one has a wholesome mental state, then one has sati and one sees things as they really are. Obviously, this does not require that the concepts of "nama", "rupa", "anicca", dukkha" or "anatta" arise in the mind at that time. It is not about naming, it is at a "pre- naming" stage that the mental state is wholesome. At the moment of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 33996 From: Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi, Rob (and Jon) - In a message dated 6/19/04 2:33:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > Dear Jon, > Thanks for these excerpts and explanations. I am surprised to find > that "revulsion" rather than 'detachment" or "understanding" is > recommended towards the five aggregates. Why is revulsion necessary > do you think? I always thought it was an important aspect of the > Buddha's teaching that both attraction and aversion should be > released, and revulsion is the most powerful form of aversion. Do you > have an explanation for this? I find it perplexing, as I always > thought the Buddha taught that aversion was really a form of > attachment to the object thus rejected. > > Best, > Robert Ep > ============================== I suspect that the English words such as 'revulsion', 'disgust', 'disenchantment', and 'disillusionment' that translate Pali terms terms carry connotations that should be dropped, and merely accept the *literal* meaning of the terms. What I mean is to adopt the following: revulsion = "turning away/back" (due to disinterest, rather than aversion) disgust = "lack of taste for or particular interest in" disenchantment = "being freed of enchantment by/for something" disillusionment = "being freed of illusion with regard to something" With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33997 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:38am Subject: Essence of Life Dear Dhamma Friends, Many people had searched for the meaning of life. Meaning of life has been searched for a long time. What is essence of life?I do not find any meaning in life as life itself is not a real thing. Waking up in the morning or after a complete physical and mental rest, first to know is that we are alive. We are here where we are. We know our surroundings as they are. If we can follow every piece of the whole, we will realise that there is nothing but illusion is making us fools so called 'puthujano ummattako' or all puthujanas are fools because they all are illuded and they think themselve as human or so and so and they consider everything according to their illusion. While finding the meaning of illusionary life, the possible results will be illusionary answers to the meaning of life. As you do, I did and do a lot of questions what the essence of life, what is the meaning of life and so on. Since waking up, we should have been aware of every possible moment as it is. For example, as soon as hear a dove sings, just cognise it as 'hear' and nothing more than that. But it is easy to say like that but we will continue to think on the matter. But if this continued consideration is investigating mind then it is sinless. Mindfulness always works. Be mindful all the time. Concentration and effort are also essential. But they need to be at balance. If we are balanceminded, we will finally attain special wisdom through all our effort. This wisdom will depart all clinging and attachment and will liberate us from all suffering. May we all attain calmness and be peaceful. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33998 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:39am Subject: Re: Now, what? Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > The following may be clumsily written, but it is not about the > words. It is about the experience. > > When the mind is directed to the study of the present moment, the > now, it turns out it is already gone. "Now" is as much a concept > as "kusala" and has no properties other than not being there. > > The study of the present moment, with the intention of finding it, > is self-defeating. Awareness of the present moment has died with it. > Awareness occurs with viewlessness. Awareness is just awareness. Here is an extract from one of my recent posts to Phil on sati: Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in conventional language. One may think that he is mindful when he directs his attention to what he is doing or to what is going on around him. That is not the characteristic of sati in the development of insight. Sati in vipassan¤ is mindful of nama or rupa which appears, without there being a thought of self who makes an effort or who is directing the attention to an object. When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and before you identify or name it. That is a stage of sati. Sati is a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Terms used to characterize Sati include: "mirror-thought", "non-judgmental observation", "impartial watchfulness", "non-conceptual awareness", "present-time awareness", "non-egoistic alertness", "goalless awareness", "awareness of change" and "participatory observation". People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases after those who have sati. Herman, are we on the same wavelength? Metta, Rob M :-) 33999 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:47am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Now, what? Hi Rob, >Herman, are we on the same wavelength? I think we are. :-) Herman >Metta, >Rob M :-)