34800 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi Jon, I would like to make a small wager with you. I would like to wager with you that before reaching the end of the sutta I am about to quote, you will have formed and accepted a number of reasons why this sutta doesn't apply to you. Now, bear in mind, it is quite a concise sutta. Pithy is such a good word to describe the Buddha's teachings. Please read and train yourself thus if you would like to reach the goal of the questioner: The alternative is spelt out quite pithily by the Buddha in the second line. "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." (I personally do not think of anyone as being worthless) Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63 Sankhitta Sutta In Brief (Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. [Translator's note: This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of jhana.] Now what is at stake with this wager? Not a lot for one who teaches that, while a worldling, there is nothing to be done, seeing as there is only conditionality. It is quite pernicious for a worldling to confuse the insights of an arahant with the rememberings of words. A worldling is indeed a wordling (my spelling checker is having kittens :-)). It is the program of the wordling/worldling to extend their suffering, being unaware of it. It is the program of the Buddha to eradicate suffering, making known its all-pervasive thereness and its ending. I marvel at the casual way in which people wishfully assure themselves of the many more lives they are bound to require before the path and fruition come into play. The Buddha says of procrastination : "Shariputra, if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault." ( from M.XV,2.) (Yes, I know, it doesn't apply to you :-)) And what to make of The Discourses on Future Dangers, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-077.html. The arahant has no need for the words "Train yourself thus". But everyone else needs to wholesomely seize every moment, and be reminded of it incessantly. So as not to confuse newbies, which is also a concern of Ken H, perhaps all posting arahants could specify that much in their subject headings :-) To avoid intellectualising, perhaps we need to restrict our discussions to suttas specifically aimed at lay folk. With kind regards Herman =========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 9:11 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Howard Would you agree that 'concentration' in these cases would have to be *kusala* concentration (i.e., concentration that accompanies kusala citta of one kind or another)? How is that kusala concentration to be developed, in your view? Jon 34801 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:50pm Subject: Vism.XIV 90 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 90. II. (a) Herein, (22)-(29) that 'rooted in greed' is of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, [false] view, and prompting, that is to say: (22) when accompanied by joy it is either associated-with-[false-] view and unprompted, or (23) prompted; or (24) it is dissociated-from-[false-] view and likewise [unprompted or (25) prompted]; and (26) when accompanied-by-equanimity it is either associated-with-[false-] view and unprompted, or (27) prompted; or (28) it is dissociated-from-[false-] view and likewise [unprompted, or (29) prompted]. 34802 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/24/04 7:28:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > Dear Jack, > That was my interpretation of the chapter I cited from his book - > did I read it wrong? > Robert > === > See Eric's quote of Santikaro on Buddhdhadasa. > > jack > ===================== Dear Jack, I read the quote from venerable Santikaro. I am not sure of the relevance, was my reading of Venerable Buddhadasa's tract on the 'natural method' wrong? Was he in fact rather than saying formal meditation was not needed (as I had thought)saying that it was? Robert 34803 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 7/24/04 7:28:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@y... > > > ===================== > Dear Jack, > I read the quote from venerable Santikaro. I am not sure of the > relevance, was my reading of Venerable Buddhadasa's tract on > the 'natural method' wrong? Was he in fact rather than saying formal > meditation was not needed (as I had thought)saying that it was? > Robert ==== Dear Jack, I just reread it now I see what Venerable Santikaro is saying: ""In the series, there was some attempt to interest the judges-to-be in formal meditation practice, but more of an effort to get them to understand Buddhist principles so that they would be more inclined to ethical behavior in their work & Dhamma understanding in their lives. Perhaps this could lead to interest in introspection, mindfulness, and meditation""" So I gather when Buddhadasa said "we can practice the development of insight by the nature method in all circumstances and at all times just by making our own way of daily living so pure and honest that there arise in succession spiritual joy (piti and pamoda), calm (passaddhi), insight into the true nature of things (yathabhutananadassana), disenchantment (nibbida), withdrawal (viraga), escape (vimutti), purification from defilements (visuddhi), and coolness (santi), so that we come to get a taste of freedom from suffering (nibbana)- steadily, naturally, day by day, month by month, year by year, gradually approaching closer and closer to Nirvana. Summing up, natural concentration and insight, which enable a person to attain the Path and the Fruit, consist in verifying all day and every day the truth of the statement that nothing is worth getting or being." and "One thing must be noticed, however: the intensity of concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration resulting from organized training is usually excessive," So was this a ploy that he hoped would eventually lead to formal meditation, not what he really believed? And even if it didn't lead to the real thing - formal meditation- at least it was better than nothing. RobertK 34804 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Rob > > Nice to hear from you again. > > Rob: > I found this message from what seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry > that it slipped through the cracks. > > Jon: > No problem, Rob. I'm just happy to find someone who takes even longer to > reply than I do ;-)) ha ha, well look no further!! > Rob: > Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of breathing > is a useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly > find your argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement > of it. I don't doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta > were advanced practitioners and that this may have had some influence on > the subject matter, but i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of > what he is describing. > > Jon: > I agree with you on this last point. There is no question whatsoever as > to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the > development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described > in the Anapanasati Sutta. The only question is as to the 'applicability' > to you and me of what is described in that sutta – do we at this time fall > within the class of persons capable of putting into practice what is there > described? On this question, the details of the occasion and the audience > to whom the sutta was spoken will be relevant. > > To put that another way, is this particular passage to be read as a > general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to develop mindfulness > (including relative beginners), or is it to be read as setting out a path > for those who are at the stage of development where they have the > potential for attainment of enlightenment (a) in this lifetime and (b) > with jhana as basis? Well, my feeling is that people are going to recognize something when it is their time to do it. A while back, when the jhanas came up as a topic here on dsg, something happened to me and I lit up like a Christmas tree. I just had this instant reaction "The jhanas oh yeah that's it!" almost as though it was something I had forgotten about and neglected. Now, I think that if someone has that reaction that something is resonating with them and it means something. I've mentioned certain Buddhist principles to people and they've literally looked past me and didn't even hear what I said. If people are not ready to hear something it may not even register. If we are drawn to anapanasati then there is probably a reason in our accumulations. Still, we don't have to worry because conditions will take care of it. I actually sat down to practice some preliminary stages of jhana a few times, and found it very interesting. But the normal course of events pulled me away and it didn't become a "regular thing." So conditions are not ripe for me to do that. I see it that way: if we are not so attached one way or the other then things will take their natural course. But we should also be open to the possibility of doing something and when the time is right the opportunity will arise. > Rob: > If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and reserved > for those who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it > seems to me that you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of > actually perceiving the arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the > aim of Abhidhamma. Could anything be more difficult than that? > > Jon: > Again, I agree with this observation. In my view, the difficulty of both > mindfulness of breathing and insight development are severely > underestimated. But of the two, the development of insight is infinitely > more difficult, both in terms of the opportunity of hearing the right > explanation and in terms of understanding what is involved. The teaching > on samatha bhavana is extant in the world long after the dhamma has > disappeared. Indeed, that is one reason why in my view our energies > should be concentrated in this lifetime on studying what the Buddha had to > say about vipassana. Well......I may be off-base, but I think that the reciprocal relationship between samatha and vipassana cannot be underestimated. Even if one's path is to be the "dry" approach to vipassana for various reasons, perhaps a little samatha will be helpful to create kusala conditions for the arising of satipatthana. Why not lubricate the dry path a bit, or do you think they do not mix at all? Also, I find myself a bit confused: If the mindfulness of breathing work is focussed towards the four foundations of mindfulenss, this would seem to me to be work that is directly focussed on satipatthana and leading towards vipassana. Could you advise me why you think that a focus on the development of samatha is inherent in this description? It seems to me the Buddha is focussed in these suttas, not on the breath as a calmative or merely as object of concentration, but as a base for developing satipatthana of the four foundations. Although the observation and slowing and calming of the breath and mind are part of the anapanasati sutta, there is probably far more on the stages of development of insight and mindfulness of the four foundations. > (A minor quibble. The actual perception of arisen namas and rupas is not > the aim of just the Abhidhamma, but is the aim of the suttas and the > Vinaya also, I believe.) Well....I would agree that this is always an important aim, but I think the Buddha ranges on a much broader scope in the suttas than in the Abhidhamma, which seems to specialize in analysis of cittas and cetasikas in detail. > Rob, I appreciate your comments and contribution to this discussion. I > hope I have managed to get across that our difference is not so much on > the question of whether mindfulness of breathing is a high level of kusala > or not, nor on whether it was widely practised in the Buddha's time, nor > whether it may in certain circumstances be the basis for the development > of insight and indeed enlightenment (there is no dispute from me on any of > these points), but on the question of how relevant the Anapanasati Sutta > is to you and me as regards the development of insight at the present > moment, in our lives as we presently live them. Jon, I actually find this somewhat comforting. It does make me think that we have a nice basis for discussion, and that we can look at particular aspects of the subject more easily. I thank you for making this clear, and look forward to your response to my and others' posts in this area, which is very intriguing to me. Best, Rob Ep. 34805 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Eric, Welcome to DSG. You wrote: -------------------- > Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. You can even call him on the phone. > ------------------- Thanks, but I think I understand Ven Thanissaro's perspective: he has stated it clearly enough on ATI. It would be helpful if, for the record, he were to answer the question, "Is there, ultimately, a self; yes or no?" However, he has already said that question should be answered with silence. My point in raising this issue is that others – Howard for one, and perhaps you too – are not hearing the message TB is trying to convey. You are assuming he does not believe in self. However, he would not thank you for making that assumption: in his opinion, anatta is not about the existence or non-existence of self but rather, it is a strategy for calming the mind (ridding it of self- conceit). He is not being dishonest or evasive: to the contrary, he is making his point as plainly as he can. Other people (including me until recently) are putting words in his mouth. ----------------------- E: > The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is the 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively there is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not have a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to confuse the 2. > ---------------------- Yes, I agree entirely: conventionally we say there is a self (man, woman, animal etc.) but, as Dhamma students, we know there is ultimately no self. The venerable bhikkhu disagrees and that is his privilege. Just so long as we all know where we stand. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34806 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI > Dear Ken, I had a look at the article you mention. The Venerable refers to the sutta to Vacchagotta "Having taken a seat to one side, Vacchagotta the wanderer said to the Master, 'Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?' When this was said, the Master was silent. 'Then is there no self?' For a second time the Master was silent. Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left. Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, the Venerable Ananda said to the Master, 'Why, sir, did the Master not answer when asked a question asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer?' 'Ananda, if I, being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self, were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism (i.e., the view that there is an eternal soul). And if I... were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism (i.e., that death is the annihilation of experience). If I... were to answer that there is a self, WOULD THAT BE IN KEEPING WITH THE ARISING OF KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL PHENOMENA ARE NOT-SELF (my capitals). 'No, Lord.' ' -- S xliv.10 Accesstoinsight: "it would seem most honest to take the first dialogue at face value, and to say that the question of whether or not there is a self is one on which the Buddha did not take a position, regardless of whether he was talking to a spiritually confused person like Vacchagotta, or a more advanced person like Ananda. For him, the doctrine of not-self is a technique or strategy for liberation, and not a metaphysical or ontological position."" So in fact although the Buddha said that all dhammas are not self this was merely a strategy. In the same way I assume the other two Lakkhana (characteristics )- anicca and dukkha are strategies, not to be thought of as true or actual descriptions of realities. Do you know if there is another article on Accesstoinsight entitled "The Impermanence Strategy"? RobertK 34807 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Dear all, Here is a passage from MN 2 which addresses my debilitating morbid obsession with whether I am doomed to be reborn in the lower realms after death (MN 131 also helps): "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self ... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self ... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self ... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine -- the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions -- is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention. "And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to. "And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to. Through his not attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his attending to ideas fit for attention, unarisen fermentations do not arise in him, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html When I read the following sutta I said "Oh no!" and was severely depressed for a few weeks: SN 56:102-104 Passing Away as Humans Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus: "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?" "Venerable sir, the great earth is more. The little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction." "So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell...the animal realm....the domain of ghosts. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. "Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'....An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' (posted with permission from "Connected Discourses of the Buddha", Wisdom Publications, http://www.wisdompubs.org ) The context of this sutta helps though. Previously Buddha said that it is just as extremely rare to abstain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, intoxicants, mutilating, murder, binding, robbery, plunder and violence. Ancient India must have been a dangerous place! So this life is the best chance we have. It is no good saying we will wait for future lives to be enlightened. Only the first stage of enlightenment can guarantee we will not be reborn in lower realms, and it is extremely difficult to return to the human realm once there. It is also extremely difficult to attain enlightenment. In another sutta the Buddha says it is more difficult than to split a hair with an arrow. So I feel like I am in serious trouble! The difficulty in attaining enlightenment does not remove the urgency. May we be enlightened in this very life! Metta / Antony. 34808 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear all, > > Here is a passage from MN 2 which addresses my debilitating > morbid obsession with whether I am doomed to be reborn in > the lower realms after death (MN 131 also helps): > > "========== Dear Antony, When this fear arises see if it is related to an idea of self. Even a sotapanna still has moments of trepidatation becuase they have not eradicated dosa, but the less there is the idea of self the less that fear arises. The Dhamma is a warrior path, and there is nothing harder than erasing self view. We go into battle a thousand times, no matter how fearful, and gradually fear becomes just another dhamma, nothing to be concerned by. In Three Kings the young private is looking scared - just before the heavy part. George Clooney tells him that first you do what is most fearful, after that the courage comes. the private: "That's crazy". Clooney:?@"But that's the way it works". And that is the way it works. Giving up self, it can be done right at the moment fear is strongest. One can become a hero right then and there, it can be the doorway to the selfless. Not a strategy, but the absolute truth. If this happens a few times one will not think they have to be in a special place or position. The Dhamma is Dhamma at all times - it is the only refuge. RobertK 34809 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:42am Subject: Reliability of the Oral Tradition in preserving the Teachings Dear Group, This may be of interest to those who wonder whether the Three Baskets could possibly be the exact Teachings of the Blessed One due to the years when they were passed on by the Reciters. http://tinyurl.com/3ke38 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34810 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Anapana Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: I think these are good examples of what we're used to considering as > being mindfulness or awareness conventionally but they are not examples, > as I understand, of sati accompanying all wholesome consciousness and > particularly not of sati in satipatthana which is not a focussing or > `retaining in memory'. This kind of focussing or retaining you describe is > seldom wholesome as I see it ... I have to disagree with you on that. If there is Sati then there will be retaining in memory. Satipatthana - that is, investigation of dhamma (and just everyday life) requires you to focus/direct your awareness. Without directing/focusing your awareness there is no discernment; the stronger your ability to focus/direct your awareness (and also maintain unbroken awareness on a object) the stronger your discernment. Just the fact that one turns his awareness upon itself, the awareness is already being directed/focused. Reflection, that is, recalling from memory is also part of the process of Satipatthana. I will recall a section from the Maha Satipatthana Sutta (PTS): D.ii.295 '...And moreover, bhikkus a brother, just as if he had seen a body abandoned in a charnel field, dead for one, two or three days ... decomposed, applies that very perception to this very body (of his own), reflecting: 'This body, too, is even so constituted,...' peace, nori 34811 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism Hi Christine, I share your concerns about this industry of raising animals for the sake of nurturing our bodies. The ease whereby we remain ignorant of what happens behind the scenes in order for us to have our daily lives as consumers of neatly shelved and once living products is also frightening. This business of living is quite revolting really. Perhaps there is some consolation in the thought that all that one has ever consumed is returned for other life to consume. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 2:08 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism Dear Group, Just wondering. The Precepts apply to the way buddhists act towards all beings. For instance, if we intentionally kill a cow or an insect - it is just as much killing as killing a human - though there are some differing opinions as to whether the vipaka is identical. I know, and have used, the explanation that buying meat from a butcher means one is not guilty of breaking the Precept against killing because I did not personally do or request the killing, and they were not specifically killed for 'me'. Increasingly I am feeling that the modern intensive farming methods would be regarded unfavourably by the Buddha. I know, and have used, the explanations that he and his bhikkhus had to live off the alms of the people and therefore were to accept what was given and have no preferences. The occasional butchering of an animal at the time of the Buddha can in no way rival the efficiency of the method and sheer multitudes of beings being bred and 'processed' within the commercial food markets today. And what of the Precept against stealing? Particularly with regard to milk, eggs and honey. The cows, chickens and the bees do not 'give' the fluids of their bodies - so couldn't the consumption of milk, icecream, cheese, yoghurt, honey and eggs be regarded as stealing. Most of them are kept in stressful (suffering) conditions, which continues for years until they are no longer useful and are 'disposed of'. Killing is one quick moment - could it be that this living off the body products of unwilling and powerless animals is worse than that? Wouldn't this make a Vegan way of life the way to go? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34812 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Eric Many thanks for these comments. Very robustly put! Let me try to consolidate the discussion a little, so that it doesn't become too fragmented. The areas we are covering are I think as follows: A. What 'anapanasati' is/isn't, and how it is 'practised' B. What the Anapanasati Sutta has to say about anapanasati C. The prospects for enlightenment in this lifetime (especially Jon's ;-)) D. The disappearance/non-disappearance of the teachings over time. OK, let me tell you what little I know about these. A. Anapanasati As I understand it, anapanasati means the development of samatha (a form of kusala mental development -- also known as 'samadhi' in some contexts) with breath as the object. Breath is one of several objects of samatha bhavana that allow concentration to be developed to access or absorption level. Other such objects include maranasati (recollection of death), Buddhanusati, Dhammanusati and Sanghanusati (recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha), the kasinas, the brahma-viharas (metta, karuna, etc.), foulness of the body, and others (38 or 40 subjects in all). As a side note, the 'sati' of anapanasati, maranasati, Buddhanusati, etc., does not refer to the 'sati' of satipatthana; it just happens to be part of the name of the particular kind of samatha bhavana. The development of these forms of samatha has no particular connection to satipatthana (or, if you prefer, no particular connection that is not shared by the other subjects for samatha bhavana such as the kasinas), except course in so far as there is special mention elsewhere in the suttas, such as the Satipatthana Sutta or the Anapanasati Sutta, which I will mention below. Now, samatha bhavana is one of the 2 forms of bhavana (mental development) discussed in the teachings, the other being vipassana bhavana (otherwise referred to as satipatthana). 'Samatha' means serenity or calm (these are the translations used by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Ven. Nanamoli in their translations). In terms of the 'conditioned dhammas' it is kusala consciousness of a particular kind, characterised by the mental factor of passaddhi ('tranquillity' in the Bhikkhu Bodhi translations). As a form of mental development, samatha is accompanied by panna of the appropriate level. High levels of kusala concentration can only be attained if the moments of samatha are accompanied by panna. Well that's it for anapanasati. Any issues so far? B. What the Anapanasati Sutta has to say about anapanasati. In my view the Anapanasati Sutta is not about *anapanasati for the beginner*, but about *vipassana for the advanced anapanasati practitioner*. By this I mean the sutta shows how for the advanced anapanasati practitioner vipassana (insight) leading to enlightenment can also be developed in tandem with the anapanasati. The key passages that set the overall context for the sutta are (a) the description of those present at the time, and (b) the description of the person exemplified for the purpose of the 4 tetrads. I have covered these points in earlier posts (some might say, ad nauseam ;-)), so if you don't mind I'll give links for now as follows: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33056 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15185 I think I've said enough for 1 post and besides I'm out of steam. The remaining topics (C. and D.) I'll come back on separately. Jon --- ericlonline wrote: ... > E: You really do hold your books close to your chest now dont you?! > > From the Anapanasati Sutta: > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so > as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? " > Then the Buddha goes on and says how. > > So, he is equating Anapanasati to Satipatthana in that Anapanasati > CULMINATES Satipatthana. ... > J: What I said about the relationship between anapanasati and > insight can be seen from the text of the sutta itself, so I would > not describe it as (purely) the commentarial view. The key > introductory passages of the sutta make it clear who the teaching is > directed to. > > E: You did not answer my quesition. Where is jhana mentioned in the > Anapanasati Sutta? As you seem to be saying you are incapable of > jhana so the sutta does not apply to you. > > Regarding who it is addressed to. My take on it is that it was > addressed to a lot of monks with varying abilities and some heavy > weight teachers. That the Buddha instructed ALL of them in > Anapanasati (teachers and students alike) shows how important this > sutta is to a wide range of people with varrying abilities. That > there is no specific mention to lay people does not mean much. It > was at night in the monastery. So, all the lay people were probably > at their own homes (there were no street lamps then you know). Most > of the meetings and teachings with lay people happened while the sun > was up after a lunch offering. What is the big deal!? What you are > deducing from the omission is a stretch at best. Besides, he was > instructing or at least telling all the teachers how important > Anapanasati is. Who do you think taught all the lay people? They did > not have nice bound books with commentaries back then you know. ... > J: I don't mind the personal question, Eric, but I really don't > think it matters (and I certainly claim no expertise in the area). > Surely you are more interested in what the Buddha had to say on the > subject than in my personal expereince ;-)) > > E: That means no. So, if I remember correctly from a recent post, > you were criticising someone for forming an opinion about the > abhidhamma when they had not even read it and now you have your own > opinions about Anapanasati without ever practicing it. Do you think > that is fair and proper? ... > For the rest of us, there is plenty of useful, and more relevant, > information about vipassana to be found in other suttas. > > E: What is the harm in 'trying' both? Come on in Jon, I assure you > the water is warm and it gets deep gradually! 34813 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I would like to make a small wager with you. I would like to wager with > you that before reaching the end of the sutta I am about to quote, you > will have formed and accepted a number of reasons why this sutta doesn't > apply to you. Now, bear in mind, it is quite a concise sutta. Pithy is > such a good word to describe the Buddha's teachings. Ouch. I seem to be under attack today! So much for a pleasant Sunday afternoon. OK then, let me see ... Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63, Sankhitta Sutta, In Brief http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html "Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." " OK Herman, you've won your wager already. I immediately spotted this as not applying to me, in that: (a) I would never ask for a teaching *in brief*; I would always need to hear the full works, and then more than once, and (b) 'heedful, ardent, & resolute' just isn't me, I'm afraid. [Sutta continues:] "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." On the other hand, this sounds like me: I would definitely want to tag along behind the Buddha... > Please read and train yourself thus if you would like to reach the goal > of the questioner: The alternative is spelt out quite pithily by the > Buddha in the second line. "But it is in just this way that some > worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, > think they should tag along right behind me." (I personally do not think > of anyone as being worthless) But I don't think it's a case of 'either or'. Those who could, like the monk in this case, hear a teaching in brief and then disappear off on their own and attain enlightenment, were not your average jack. We know from the suttas that the general advice given by the Buddha was for repeated listening and consideration. We need to be careful about extrapolating too freely from this particular case ;-)). ... > Now what is at stake with this wager? Not a lot for one who teaches > that, while a worldling, there is nothing to be done, seeing as there is > only conditionality. It is quite pernicious for a worldling to confuse > the insights of an arahant with the rememberings of words. A worldling > is indeed a wordling (my spelling checker is having kittens :-)). > > It is the program of the wordling/worldling to extend their suffering, > being unaware of it. It is the program of the Buddha to eradicate > suffering, making known its all-pervasive thereness and its ending. > > I marvel at the casual way in which people wishfully assure themselves > of the many more lives they are bound to require before the path and > fruition come into play. > > The Buddha says of procrastination : "Shariputra, if someone gives up > this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault." ( from M.XV,2.) > (Yes, I know, it doesn't apply to you :-)) ;-)) Thanks for the interesting sutta choice. I'll try and get back on the other one later. Jon 34814 From: Joseph Bridwell Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:43am Subject: introduction My given name is Joseph, I'm 49 years old, and live in Seattle, WA, USA. I've been an interested but casual student of Mahayana Buddhism since I was 15, yet I find that events over the past decade have focused my attention on the tradition of Buddhism, and particularly in Theravada for its directness. I'm here to learn, so I expect to do a lot of lurking. 34815 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken (and Eric) - In a message dated 7/25/04 1:35:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Eric, > > Welcome to DSG. You wrote: > -------------------- > >Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. > You can even call him on the phone. > > ------------------- > > Thanks, but I think I understand Ven Thanissaro's perspective: he > has stated it clearly enough on ATI. It would be helpful if, for > the record, he were to answer the question, "Is there, ultimately, a > self; yes or no?" However, he has already said that question should > be answered with silence. > > My point in raising this issue is that others – Howard for one, and > perhaps you too – are not hearing the message TB is trying to > convey. You are assuming he does not believe in self. However, he > would not thank you for making that assumption: in his opinion, > anatta is not about the existence or non-existence of self but > rather, it is a strategy for calming the mind (ridding it of self- > conceit). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, I agree with the assessment of yours in the last sentence after the colon, but tht does not imply that he secretly believes in "self". ------------------------------------------------- > > He is not being dishonest or evasive: to the contrary, he is making > his point as plainly as he can. Other people (including me until > recently) are putting words in his mouth. > > ----------------------- > E: >The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is > the 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively > there is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not > have a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to > confuse the 2. > > ---------------------- > > Yes, I agree entirely: conventionally we say there is a self (man, > woman, animal etc.) but, as Dhamma students, we know there is > ultimately no self. The venerable bhikkhu disagrees and that is his > privilege. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: It could be that he disagrees, but I have not been convinced of that. ------------------------------------------ Just so long as we all know where we stand. :-)> > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34816 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/25/04 7:51:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > A. Anapanasati > As I understand it, anapanasati means the development of samatha (a form > of kusala mental development -- also known as 'samadhi' in some contexts) > with breath as the object. > > Breath is one of several objects of samatha bhavana that allow > concentration to be developed to access or absorption level. Other such > objects include maranasati (recollection of death), Buddhanusati, > Dhammanusati and Sanghanusati (recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma, > Sangha), the kasinas, the brahma-viharas (metta, karuna, etc.), foulness > of the body, and others (38 or 40 subjects in all). > > As a side note, the 'sati' of anapanasati, maranasati, Buddhanusati, etc., > does not refer to the 'sati' of satipatthana; it just happens to be part > of the name of the particular kind of samatha bhavana. The development of > these forms of samatha has no particular connection to satipatthana (or, > if you prefer, no particular connection that is not shared by the other > subjects for samatha bhavana such as the kasinas), except course in so far > as there is special mention elsewhere in the suttas, such as the > Satipatthana Sutta or the Anapanasati Sutta, which I will mention below. > > Now, samatha bhavana is one of the 2 forms of bhavana (mental development) > discussed in the teachings, the other being vipassana bhavana (otherwise > referred to as satipatthana). > > 'Samatha' means serenity or calm (these are the translations used by > Bhikkhu Bodhi and Ven. Nanamoli in their translations). In terms of the > 'conditioned dhammas' it is kusala consciousness of a particular kind, > characterised by the mental factor of passaddhi ('tranquillity' in the > Bhikkhu Bodhi translations). > > As a form of mental development, samatha is accompanied by panna of the > appropriate level. High levels of kusala concentration can only be > attained if the moments of samatha are accompanied by panna. > > Well that's it for anapanasati. Any issues so far? ========================= If I may butt in Jon, I certainly have an issue. There is no doubt that samatha bhavana is involved in anapanasati, but the main thrust is the use of mindfulness of breath as a vehicle for complete enlightenment and liberation. In the Anapanasati Sutta you will find proof of what I say. The first section is introductory, the second section synopsizes the technique, and all the subsequent sections deal with the four foundations of mindfulness and liberation (along with cultivation of calm). I quote these portions starting with the third at the end of this post. I have put the heading of each of these portions in bold (and larger) type, although Yahoo may remove the bold. With metta, Howard ***************************************** The following are the sections 3, 4, and 5 which clearly discuss the 4 foundations of mindfulness and the use of anapanasati as a means for implementing them: (The Four Frames of Reference)"Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "[1] Now, on whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, discerns that he is breathing out long; or breathing in short, discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, discerns that he is breathing out short; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the entire body; trains himself to breathe in... & ... out calming bodily fabrication: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this -- the in-& -out breath -- is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to rapture; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to pleasure; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to mental fabrication; trains himself to breathe in... &... out calming mental fabrication: On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this -- close attention to in-&-out breaths -- is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out satisfying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out steadying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out releasing the mind: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of confused mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on inconstancy; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on dispassion; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on cessation; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on relinquishment: On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees clearly with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who oversees with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. (The Seven Factors for Awakening)"And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? "[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[3] In one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, unflagging persistence is aroused. When unflagging persistence is aroused in one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then persistence as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[4] In one whose persistence is aroused, a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises. When a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises in one whose persistence is aroused, then rapture as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[5] For one who is enraptured, the body grows calm and the mind grows calm. When the body & mind of an enraptured monk grow calm, then serenity as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[6] For one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind of one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[7] He oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity. When he oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity, equanimity as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. [Similarly with the other three frames of reference: feelings, mind, & mental qualities.] "This is how the four frames of reference are developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. (Clear Knowing & Release)"And how are the seven factors for Awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in relinquishment. "This is how the seven factors for Awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34817 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 7/25/04 10:39:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I have put the heading of each of these portions > in bold (and larger) type, although Yahoo may remove the bold. > ========================= Hmmph! Looks like Yahoo not only removed the bold, but also reduced my type size from 12 to 10!! I hope it is clear which are the headings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34818 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 2:02:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: But, at least at this point, I'm not approaching my meditation in very much of a formal, follow-the-steps manner. I'm just attempting to avoid distraction as much as possible (or at least to come back from it quickly), but without expectations, permitting the development of calm and concentration and other useful factors to proceed as conditions allow. When a good degree of calm and pleasant sensation arises, I tend to shift my attention to that, for doing so is recommended in the movement towards absorption, and it is natural as well. What I'm (re)discovering is the importance of patience and not anticipating developments. With these relinquishings, calm and then concentration do increase on their own. === Howard, Several months ago I started the same sort of practice but in what sounds like a slightly more formal, step by step manner. I use Buddhadasa's book as my main reference and also use Larry Rosenberg"s _Breath by Breath_ which is also based on the Anap. Sutta. It says pretty much the same as Buddhadasa's book but at times gives a slightly different slant. What got me started on this practice was a quote in Rosenberg's book describing a breakthrough he had from his old practice. His old practice was described the same as I would have described mine. " At that point my practice was samatha/vipassana. I focused on the breathing in order to calm the mind, then--dropping the breath as object--opened the attention to a wider focus, noticing the arising and passing away of whatever aspect of body or mind presented iteself most vividly. Bhikkhu Vimalo argued that I was seriously limiting my work with the breath, that in fact the breath could take me all the way to the deepest realization." Rosenberg goes on to say how he then studied the Anap. Sutta under Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. May we both as well as everyone on this list be liberated in our lifetime. jack 34819 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack - I do agree that anapansati is a vehicle for full realization. At the moment, however, I am primarily using it as a vehicle for cultivation of calm, access concentration, and, conditions allowing, the jhanas. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/25/04 12:39:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > > In a message dated 7/23/04 2:02:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... > > writes: > But, at least at this point, I'm not approaching my meditation > in very much of a formal, follow-the-steps manner. I'm just attempting to > avoid distraction as much as possible (or at least to come back from it > quickly), > but without expectations, permitting the development of calm and > concentration > and other useful factors to proceed as conditions allow. When a good degree > of calm and pleasant sensation arises, I tend to shift my attention to that, > > for doing so is recommended in the movement towards absorption, and it is > natural as well. What I'm (re)discovering is the importance of patience and > not > anticipating developments. With these relinquishings, calm and then > concentration > do increase on their own. > === > Howard, > > Several months ago I started the same sort of practice but in what sounds > like a slightly more formal, step by step manner. I use Buddhadasa's book as > my > main reference and also use Larry Rosenberg"s _Breath by Breath_ which is > also > based on the Anap. Sutta. It says pretty much the same as Buddhadasa's book > but at times gives a slightly different slant. > > What got me started on this practice was a quote in Rosenberg's book > describing a breakthrough he had from his old practice. His old practice was > described > the same as I would have described mine. " At that point my practice was > samatha/vipassana. I focused on the breathing in order to calm the mind, > then--dropping the breath as object--opened the attention to a wider focus, > noticing > the arising and passing away of whatever aspect of body or mind presented > iteself most vividly. Bhikkhu Vimalo argued that I was seriously limiting my > work > with the breath, that in fact the breath could take me all the way to the > deepest realization." Rosenberg goes on to say how he then studied the Anap. > Sutta > under Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. > > May we both as well as everyone on this list be liberated in our lifetime. > > jack > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34820 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: "kenhowardau" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:13 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI >Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when >arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had >assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it >seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. I think you're right about this and that it explains TB's contempt for abhidhamma (which he has expressed to me personally). This disregard for the central position of anatta in all Dhamma is a key feature of the present deteriorated state of the saasana, to which, in my opinion, TB has so lamentably contributed. Oh well! Anicca has just a central a position (or almost) and applies to the saasana as well as anything else, in my opinion. (This last point is debatable, of course, as some of us think that the tilakkha.na pertain exclusively to paramattha dhammas and 'the saasana' is, of course, a concept. It seems to me that the tilakkha.na are true of concepts on a conceptual level as well as being ultimately true of paramattha dhammas--but that's just my opinion, of course, and a separate issue). mike 34821 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Mike - In a message dated 7/25/04 1:43:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Hi Ken, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kenhowardau" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:13 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI > > >Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when > >arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had > >assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it > >seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. > > I think you're right about this and that it explains TB's contempt for > abhidhamma (which he has expressed to me personally). This disregard for > the central position of anatta in all Dhamma is a key feature of the present > deteriorated state of the saasana, to which, in my opinion, TB has so > lamentably contributed. Oh well! Anicca has just a central a position (or > almost) and applies to the saasana as well as anything else, in my opinion. > (This last point is debatable, of course, as some of us think that the > tilakkha.na pertain exclusively to paramattha dhammas and 'the saasana' is, > of course, a concept. It seems to me that the tilakkha.na are true of > concepts on a conceptual level as well as being ultimately true of > paramattha dhammas--but that's just my opinion, of course, and a separate > issue). > > mike > ======================= Just for the record, in case there is any question, I also think the tilakkhana are *facts*, and whether hey are grasped conceptually or directly, that is the case. I don't think, however, that is the issue, and I would be quite surprised to learn that Ven T was an "atta-man" (Of course, the truth is often surprising ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34822 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi again, Ken, Andrew, Mike, and all - I just reread part 4 of Ven Thanissaro's article "The Not-Self Strategy". In this section he seems to recognize Right View as a part of the well known raft of the Buddha's that must be put down on reaching the far shore. He seems to be indicating in this section, and giving suttic evidence to show, that complete awakening to reality requires a *total* relinquishment which includes giving up all views entirely. I find that position to be interesting, though of more theoretical interest and less pragmatic interest than Ven T seems to think. Right View begins as conceptual right view, and it is pragmatically necessary to point one in the right direction - to properly orient the mind. As there is progress, however, Right View evolves into wisdom, and wisdom leads to uprooting and relinquishment. In any case, I do think this section of Ven T's article is worth a rereading. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34823 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi all - On my last post I missed explicitly including Eric in my salutaion. Perhaps I missed others as well. My apologies. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34824 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hey Ken, Ken > Welcome to DSG. Thanks! Ken: I think I understand Ven Thanissaro's perspective: he > has stated it clearly enough on ATI. It would be helpful if, for > the record, he were to answer the question, "Is there, ultimately, a > self; yes or no?" However, he has already said that question should be answered with silence. Thanks for pushing this a bit further. Why do you think this is the case above? You feel it is an indication of his 'self' beliefs, right? Is there another explanation? If he answers 'yes' he is siding with eternalism. If he answers 'no' he is siding with nihilism. So what are WE to do? Intelectually assert one way or another about the intelectual beliefs another is supposed to have or not on what is for us a metaphysical meandering? Or like the instructions to the Kalamas find out for ourselves? Thanisarro is offering us, as the name of the article states, a 'no- self strategy' to find out for ourselves. PEACE E 34825 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:51pm Subject: Re: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? Hey Andrew, A > So you are saying establish one of the four foundations of mindfulness well and discern the truths related to that before rousing the others, and 'getting it together,' am I right? Yes, that is right. It is a sort of reductionism. Disassemble what is taken to be one 'thing' into its parts to begin to see what it is made of and what it is capable of. So, start with the body as a frame of reference. What sort of happiness and suffering is inherent in it? How do they arise and pass away? Is there anything 'you' can do about it? Is there a lasting happiness possible in the body? Find out so you "know" and not just believe because the Buddha said so! A > It seems you are also referencing mindfulness of feelings (mind) to investigate anicca and anatta which seems reasonable to me esp. on the meditation cushion, but I have traditionally looked through anicca via mindfulness of feelings of the body (pleasant, painful, or neutral). E> Sure investigate in whatever way you are capable of and what makes sense to you. If you follow say the first 4 steps in Anapanasati and you can sufficiently calm the breath, then piti will arise naturally. But you needn't only look at piti and sukha, as you said you can look at dukkha vedana and see also how it arises and passes. But it is not just about seeing anicca at this stage. See how and what influences the body and feelings. What part does the breath play in all of this? Play with all of this in an open investigative manner. Make it an active experiential investigation of Paticca Samuppada. Before you sit. Clarify what it is you are sitting for. Just take one or two things and investigate it. Anapanasati is a good guide for this. Not that you have to hold to your intention if something else pops up that requires attention, etc. Over time skill and understanding will come in navigating the four frames. But khanti (patience) in this regard is the highest virtue! PEACE E 34826 From: Demian Meyer Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism Hello, I think that though this happens, we as consumers can choose what to, and what not to purchase in regards to animal products. For example we can choose to buy cage free eggs, with the animal care certified label. This way we can be sure that the animal was treated humanly, and that it was not tortured through out it's life with drugs, and being confined. Personally I do not eat meat except for fish occasionally, and one day I hope that I will be able to stop eating that as well. There are so many alternatives today, "meat-less" products if you will that are healthier for you then meat, and because of this, we now do have a choice to not eat meat, without causing ourselves undue physical hardship. In the time of the Buddha's life, that may not have been possible. On a side note I have a question: What type of shoes can you buy that are durable enough for hard terrain, and warm enough for weather conditions, that are not made from leather? Thank you, -Demian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman Hofman" To: Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism > Hi Christine, > > I share your concerns about this industry of raising animals for the > sake of nurturing our bodies. The ease whereby we remain ignorant of > what happens behind the scenes in order for us to have our daily lives > as consumers of neatly shelved and once living products is also > frightening. > > This business of living is quite revolting really. Perhaps there is some > consolation in the thought that all that one has ever consumed is > returned for other life to consume. > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 2:08 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism > > Dear Group, > > Just wondering. The Precepts apply to the way buddhists act towards > all beings. 34827 From: bernard.vital Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:44am Subject: Hello Hello At the moment I work for dutch gouvernement as a legislative lawyer. A lawyer who prepares laws and rules. It is nice and I got some more income, but it is not the forfilling of my life. It is a good thing to have at this moment some basic fundaments and than in a few months I can see what I can and will do in the next years of my . I´m not unhappy at the moment, but I still feel a lot of time that I miss a real friend or partner. And I also do not see clear now if I realy miss a friend or a community of people with the same feelings and thoughts. In Europe people are living very individualistic. Everybody is going home after work and sit there with there own family. People are not so social as in Asia. I think every relation is for a time and so it will always lead you to suffering. But on the other hand I do not ant to live the rest of my life in lonliness. So that is a difficult question for me. A second question is: I was already several times in SE Asia and from the first time I was there it felt as if I realy came home for the first time in my life. After the end of the realtion I had with the a dutch man for 9 years. I was so depressed. And it became worser for me every day. After three months I went for 6 weeks to Viet Nam and I was totaly recovered. So I want to know for myself if there are possibilities to settle me somewhere in Asia for the rest of my life. I think I lived in a previous life in Asia. I also know that the problems you have know (lonliness,...) you take with you were ever you go. But the feeling I have in Asia is so wonderful and it was a kind of enlightment I never had before. My purpose in life is not to be rich but to make people happier and give them some peace. There is only one thing that is a very big problem to set this step. So I only can stay healthy with some medecines. But they are very expiencive. In The Netherlands we have a health insurence that pays all the medecines you need. But in Asia there is not such as a health insurence for that. And it is still difficult to find these medecines there. So now you know what are my questions and and things I am concerned about. I believe that everything that happens in our life is the result of the karma we built up in this and previous lifes. If we do good to others, give love, friendship and help to other we will get a on one day in this or a next life back. I still believe that you only can answer agression, hate, lies, ... wiht love and compassion. Every man or woman is good, also if some of his acts are not the best for me or for the world. I have always to forgive them. I cannot force to change the other people. I only can take the lessons of the situation for myself. When my philippino boyfriend maked an end at our relation under the pressure of his family, he knocked me down. I was bleading and had a lot of pain. But the first thing I did was to go to a florist to send him some flowers and ask him for forgiveness for all the things I did perhaps wrong, even if I never had some intention to do things wrong. But perhaps in his perception I was wrong. I still do not know. But now I do not have hard feelings to him or at the end of our relation. So if I perhaps didnot change his mind these facts didn´t hurt me anymore. I did everything I could. Also if I see some poor people on the streets, I akways give them something. Also if I don´t have much money at this moment, if I can share the little one I have with them, I feel a little bit happier. I only try to follow the learning of the Buddha. But sometimes it is not so easy. On my work I´m one of the best lawyers. Everbody says that. But I´m not proud of it, I only do my job. I have to do it this way. The things I got by my birth I have to set them in for the welness of other people. A lot of lawyers in Holland earn four till eight times more than me because they do things which I would never do. They take cases from people amnd find out how they can make profit on the account of other people. I never will do that, because I would feel myself very baad if I would do that. Also some collegues earn more,because they present their result as if they have done something wonderful and the make their on the back of other people. If they do it that way. It is ok for me. But I will never do that. I do not judge anyone. But I know what I can and will do. If I will hurt other people I do not do it. Money, possesions etc. are nice, but not important for me. If you die, you have to leafe them all. The only important thing is that I will have found some enlightment and that I make some people a little bit happier and peaceful. I only offer it to them, if that accept it it is ok, if not it is also ok. That is a little bit how I see and feel and act and how I life every day. I like to ask you not to say that I am good or bad. The only thing I liek to ask you is to give me some advice, to be a guide to me for a while and show me better the way I have to go now to get enleightment for the wellness of all the living beeings. Vital www.vitalmoors.nl 34828 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi Jon, > > I would like to make a small wager with you. I would like to wager with > you that before reaching the end of the sutta I am about to quote, you > will have formed and accepted a number of reasons why this sutta doesn't > apply to you. Now, bear in mind, it is quite a concise sutta. Pithy is > such a good word to describe the Buddha's teachings. Ouch. I seem to be under attack today! So much for a pleasant Sunday afternoon. ================================================= H > I'm sorry, Jon, no intended attack from me. I'm truly sorry my message arrived in that way. :-) ================================================= OK then, let me see ... Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63, Sankhitta Sutta, In Brief http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html "Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." " OK Herman, you've won your wager already. I immediately spotted this as not applying to me, in that: (a) I would never ask for a teaching *in brief*; I would always need to hear the full works, and then more than once, and (b) 'heedful, ardent, & resolute' just isn't me, I'm afraid. [Sutta continues:] "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." On the other hand, this sounds like me: I would definitely want to tag along behind the Buddha... ==================================================== H > Jon, I read your post as saying the following: You know yourself well. You know what's going to work for you and what is not going to work for (I cannot make out from this or previous contexts how you know this) ==================================================== > Please read and train yourself thus if you would like to reach the goal > of the questioner: The alternative is spelt out quite pithily by the > Buddha in the second line. "But it is in just this way that some > worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, > think they should tag along right behind me." (I personally do not think > of anyone as being worthless) But I don't think it's a case of 'either or'. Those who could, like the monk in this case, hear a teaching in brief and then disappear off on their own and attain enlightenment, were not your average jack. We know from the suttas that the general advice given by the Buddha was for repeated listening and consideration. We need to be careful about extrapolating too freely from this particular case ;-)). ================================================================= H > You are making classifications in a spiritual hierarchy based on a known result (the benefit of hindsight), and have made some decisions about the attainability of enlightenment for yourself. Now of course, you do not have to justify your self-assessment to anyone, but the need to be careful would extend to every one of us extrapolating their own self-assessment to others as well, or not? I am curious to know, does the satipatthana sutta apply to you, or the maha-version? Which suttas, if any, that treat of mindfulness, relate to you? A further point. You mention the general advice of the Buddha re repeated listening and consideration. Isn't there also unequivocal, repeated and general advice to seek out the foot of a tree in the suttas? Is there ever any advice that warns of the dangers of seclusion from the world? Kind regards Herman 34829 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Ken, Andrew, Mike, and all - > > I just reread part 4 of Ven Thanissaro's article "The Not- Self > Strategy". In this section he seems to recognize Right View as a part of the well > known raft of the Buddha's that must be put down on reaching the far shore. He > seems to be indicating in this section, and giving suttic evidence to show, that > complete awakening to reality requires a *total* relinquishment which > includes giving up all views entirely. I find that position to be interesting, though > of more theoretical interest and less pragmatic interest than Ven T seems to > think. Right View begins as conceptual right view, and it is pragmatically > necessary to point one in the right direction - to properly orient the mind. As > there is progress, however, Right View evolves into wisdom, and wisdom leads to > uprooting and relinquishment. Hi Howard Thanks for these thoughts. I think this whole discussion has been useful in making plain the fundamental issue at stake i.e. whether the anatta teaching is a description of reality to be realised or a technique to be used and abandoned. I accept the first proposition. I do see how those who are averse to Abhidhamma would not be receptive to the proposition that Right View is a wholesome mental factor. As a path factor, it is wisdom as you say. On a more mundane level, we are advised to listen to and reflect upon the Dhamma - does that only involve thinking with concept as object? Or does it involve mind-base taking a paramattha dhamma as object and experiencing it with understanding? That would be a "direct hit" of satipatthana, wouldn't it? What about all the "misses" before the "direct hit"? Can any of those "misses" (eg with concept as object) have Right View as a mental factor? Can you (or anyone else) help with these questions? Best wishes Andrew PS my notes seem to indicate that every beautiful consciousness has some Right View except sense-sphere consciousness dissociated from knowledge. 34830 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:06pm Subject: Developing Faith Hi All, A quick question. I was recently asked how one develops faith. My answer was something like the following: The Pali term saddha, often translated as faith, also includes the ideas of confidence or trust. The way that one builds up confidence is by proper reflection. For example, when I first encountered Buddhism, I had a problem with the concept of rebirth. When I started reflecting on this issue, I realized that rebirth was the best possible explanation for natural talents and tendencies. After reflecting in this way, I had confidence in the concept of rebirth. ===== I feel that my answer was incomplete. I am hoping that one of my DSG friends can help me answer more completely (maybe even with a Sutta quote). Metta, Rob M :-) 34831 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:48pm Subject: Re: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? hi andrew, In my opinion, the four foundations of mindfulness, that is, looking upon oneself, does not have to adhere to any strict rules in regards to choosing amongst the four and concentrating on just one. I think this can change from moment to moment depending on what one is choosing to investigate. I believe, and the Maha Satipatthana Sutta makes it clear, that this mindfulness on oneself should not end once your butt gets off the seat cushion, but should continue (as practically possible) throughout every conscious moment of the day. That said, I have experienced the benefit also from focusing on just one frame/foundation of mindfulness, or even more specific, one aspect within each frame/foundation and maintaining concentration on that. For example, in the Goenka Vipassana school (beginner level), after anapana, they focus on only bodily sensations, sitting and throughout the entire day. In a sutta, I forgot which, it is said that everything is manifested as a sensation on the body, whether feelings, mental conditions, or the five hinderances. Interestingly enough, when the mind stays concentrated just on bodily sensations, all other things ('foundations') within oneself also become very apparent and distinguished - thoughts, feelings, mental conditions, and mind contents in regard to the five hinderances. I think this article below by Thanissaro Bhikkhu titled: Basic Breath Meditation Instructions is a really good instruction for those starting out. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/breathmed.html peace and metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suicidal_one2004" wrote: > Hi, > > I've been reading "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U > Silananda and Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening." > > Surely we all know the Buddha says whoever is practising these four > foundations of mindfulness [*each of body, feelings, mind, and dhammas > in and of themselves*] for [7 years down to 7 days] can expect gnosis > here & now or if there is still some trace of affliction, non- return. > > My question is, must these all be practised concurrently, or do we > merely shift attention to whatever comes to the fore? A passage to > consider: > > from Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening": > ========================================== > The four objects that act as frames of reference fall into two > classes. The first class--the body, feelings, and the mind--act as > the "given" objects of meditation practise: what experience presents, > on its own, as an object for meditation. The meditator takes any one > of these objects as a frame of reference, relating all of experience > to his/her chosen frame. For example, although one will experience > feelings and mind states in the course of taking the body as a frame > of reference, one tries to relate them to the experience of the body > as their primary frame. _A feeling is viewed as it affects the body, > or the body affects it._ The same holds for a mind state. An analogy > for this practise is holding an object in one's hand. When other > objects come into contact with the hand, one is aware that they are > making contact, but one does not let go of the object in one's hand in > order to grasp after them." > ========================================== > This seems to imply that feelings should be taken as a secondary > consideration, as it relates to the body. How one would do this, I > don't know, but it doesn't seem right to me. Certainly we need to > practise ardently on feelings in and of themselves, to observe > origination & dissolution factors, relinquishment, and impermanence > that is their very nature, right? > > Or is it meant to say that we should develop each frame of reference > one at a time, focusing on the other events as secondary or background > phenomenon, or relating them to the primary frame of reference, until > each foundation of mindfulness is established so they can be practised > concurrently? > > Furthermore, Ven. Pannyavaro, in his e-book entitled "The Art of > Attention" available on http://www.buddhanet.net, refers to the > foundations of mindfulness as the "four spheres of attention," > extracting pieces of the satipatthana sutta saying we should note the > posture of the body and the four elements of it, along with the > movement of the abdomen, without any ardency, concentration, or strict > adherence to the letter of the sutta. Similarly with feelings and > mental phenomenon, just to note whichever comes to the fore of one's > attention -- thus he calles them the "four spheres of attention." > > The image I have here is of one sitting practising mindfulness of > breathing, of posture, of the four elements, of feelings, physical and > mental, of mind, and eventually of dhammas, staying in the domain of > the four foundations of mindfulness whereever he physically goes. > This is how the Buddha meant satipatthana to be practised with regard > to the time periods referenced in the assurance of attainment section, > right? 34832 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Anapana / Vipassana instructions hi dhamma friends, I think this article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu 'Basic Breath Meditation Instructions' is very good instruction for those starting out in Anapana and Vipassana meditation. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/breathmed.html with metta, nori 34833 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hey, jon Thanks for all the info but I am familiar with all of it. Let's try an analogy to help clarify things. Let us use Popeye and spinach. You are saying that when Popeye eats spinach he gets all powerful. Now you feel that if and when you eat spinach you wont get that power or maybe you can't stomach the spinach. Which is fine as long as you are eating say kale to get the nourishment that is in spinach. But that does not mean that others won't get any nourishment from spinach because they won't get the same 'reaction' from the spinach as Popeye. Even if you can't palate it the spinach is still good for you. PEACE E 34834 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hey Andrew, > I think this whole discussion has been > useful in making plain the fundamental issue at stake i.e. whether > the anatta teaching is a description of reality to be realised or a technique to be used and abandoned. I accept the first proposition. Maybe the situation is not as dire as you suggest. Have you considered this? Instead of making it an either/or proposition try both/and. Just a thought. Throw it away if it does not resonate with your way of looking at things. PEACE E 34835 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:29pm Subject: Re: Developing Faith Hey Rob, I like this sutta in showing the importance of faith and where it is most relavant. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html It seems faith is conditioned by suffering. The way I think of it is, when one suffers, there comes a time when faith arises that suffering may one day end. PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > A quick question. I was recently asked how one develops faith. My > answer was something like the following: > > The Pali term saddha, often translated as faith, also includes the > ideas of confidence or trust. The way that one builds up confidence > is by proper reflection. For example, when I first encountered > Buddhism, I had a problem with the concept of rebirth. When I started > reflecting on this issue, I realized that rebirth was the best > possible explanation for natural talents and tendencies. After > reflecting in this way, I had confidence in the concept of rebirth. > > ===== > > I feel that my answer was incomplete. I am hoping that one of my DSG > friends can help me answer more completely (maybe even with a Sutta > quote). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34836 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:23pm Subject: Re: Developing Faith Hi Eric and All, Very interesting but not completely satisfying. My "take away" is: - If one's focus remains on pleasant things and the pursuit of them, then there is no condition for faith to arise - Reflecting on dukkha is a condition for faith to arise Does this imply that the way to build / strengthen / develop faith is to reflect on dukkha? Is reflection on dukkha the only way to build / strengthen / develop faith? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Rob, > I like this sutta in showing the importance of faith and > where it is most relavant. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html > > It seems faith is conditioned by suffering. The way I think > of it is, when one suffers, there comes a time when faith > arises that suffering may one day end. > > PEACE > > E > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > A quick question. I was recently asked how one develops faith. My > > answer was something like the following: > > > > The Pali term saddha, often translated as faith, also includes the > > ideas of confidence or trust. The way that one builds up > confidence > > is by proper reflection. For example, when I first encountered > > Buddhism, I had a problem with the concept of rebirth. When I > started > > reflecting on this issue, I realized that rebirth was the best > > possible explanation for natural talents and tendencies. After > > reflecting in this way, I had confidence in the concept of rebirth. > > > > ===== > > > > I feel that my answer was incomplete. I am hoping that one of my > DSG > > friends can help me answer more completely (maybe even with a > Sutta > > quote). > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) 34837 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Re: Developing Faith --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > A quick question. I was recently asked how one develops faith. My > answer was something like the following: > > The Pali term saddha, often translated as faith, also includes the > ideas of confidence or trust. The way that one builds up confidence > is by proper reflection. For example, when I first encountered > Buddhism, I had a problem with the concept of rebirth. When I started > reflecting on this issue, I realized that rebirth was the best > possible explanation for natural talents and tendencies. After > reflecting in this way, I had confidence in the concept of rebirth. > > ===== > > I feel that my answer was incomplete. Hi Rob M Just looking at my CMA. The proximate cause of saddha is hearing the Dhamma. Its function is to clarify or set forth and it manifests as non-fogginess or resolution. Perhaps the way to develop saddha is therefore to expose oneself to the clarity of the Dhamma. That has been my experience - I first "came" to Buddhism when studying at university. It struck me as so simple and so correct - unlike the law lectures I was attending at the time which were full of fancy and convoluted logic/non-logic. Fogginess versus Non-fogginess. Nice to see you back. Best wishes Andrew (aka Phineas Fogg) 34838 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Eric > > Many thanks for these comments. Very robustly put! > > Let me try to consolidate the discussion a little, so that it doesn't > become too fragmented. The areas we are covering are I think as follows: > A. What 'anapanasati' is/isn't, and how it is 'practised' > B. What the Anapanasati Sutta has to say about anapanasati > C. The prospects for enlightenment in this lifetime (especially Jon's ;-)) > D. The disappearance/non-disappearance of the teachings over time. > > OK, let me tell you what little I know about these. ... Dear Jon, Thanks for this post. I continue to enjoy your insight into anapanasati. Best, Robert 34839 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:33pm Subject: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) hi dhamma friends, While we are on the topic I thought I would share some more additional basic information and opinions from my experience on Anapana meditation. Towards the end of this post I compare the Goenkaji method and the Maha Satipatthana Sutta instruction on Anapana, its differences and my opinion on the pros & cons. --- What greatly affects the level of ones awareness (amongst the many things) is the intention of becoming. One who is caught up in agendas of becoming has a mind full of thoughts and deliberation in regard to that becoming. One who is only intent on emancipation from suffering, alone, has less thoughts to deal with and has more awareness and ability of concentration for what is most important to his/her life. So preliminary to this is to live a simple life, not full of so many activities and thoughts. It is important that one finds a place that is very quiet. In the Goenka school, it is suggested that meditation is done preferably before everyone wakes up, or after activity outside has died down. It is also suggested that to get the most effect, one should meditate for at least one hour per sitting. They suggest, at the least, one hour after waking and one hour in the evening. I find it better if the place is clean, after I take a shower in loose and comfortable clothes. The lighting should not be dark or too light; but just right. I have slight scoliosis so I find it better if I sit with by back against a wall in half lotus. There are many contraptions and things to sit comfortably but I won't get into that; only it is important that you are comfortable, even if its a chair. In the Goenka school, they have a term 'Strong detrmination' which I find synonymous to the word 'ardently' in the suttas. In the Maha Satipatthana sutta: "Let a brother ... look upon the body that he remains ardent ..." M. Webster: 1ardent: ... b : characterized by intensity : very strong or great : EXTREME. Before one begins, one should tell oneself that you mean business and have strong determination that one is to complete the alloted time. That he/she is to sit through the entire session remaining in the original position, as still as possible, even if one has itches, sensations, anxiety or aches. One is to make effort to not have any aversion or craving that may arise. I find that building concentration is like rolling a bolder; it takes time and continued effort to get it going; stopping for a while slows it down (bolder analogy). Anapana meditation: Now there are many methods and objects for Anapana. People should start on the most apparent and gross objects before going to the more subtle objects. I will list the objects I know of in what I personally feel is in the order of most apparent to subtle. 1. The rising and fall of the chest or stomach. 2. The touch of the breath in the nasal passages. 3. The touch of the breath at the broad entrance of the nose. 4. The touch of the breath at the tip of the nose. 5. The touch of the breath at a point under the nose, above the upper lip. In the Goenka school, the first object was the entire broad triangular area formed by the external nose, felt in the nostrils, to the top of the upper lip; anything you felt in that entire area. So choose a single object for that session and stick with it; change it if only it is too subtle an object and that you cannot detect it. Also, if this happens (you cannot detect/sense it), they suggest to take a few strong breaths and to mark the sensation, then resume with a natural breath. Close your eyes and breath naturally. At this point I think it is good to do Metta Bhavana. Wish yourself well, 'may I be happy, free from any ill will'; then wish others for the same. Sometimes I have trouble here with thoughts like 'why should I give metta to certain horrible people'. At this point I begin with 'let me be free from any ill will at least', then work myself up to metta considering my own imperfections and unwholesome nature in the past. Who knows, maybe those people will in the future be more wholesome than you. anyway... I remember him saying 'give your full 100% attention to this limited area, ... have patience, ...with a calm and attentive mind, ...calm and attentive mind. See if you can feel which nostril the air is flowing through, the left nostril, the right nostril, or both nostrils... just observe it as it is, ... as it is.' Its amazing how dull my sensitivity was when I started off. Your mind is certainly going to wander, maybe for the entire session. It is important that you don't scold or punish yourself and just say 'oh, I wandered again', and like a person leading a horse on a trail, gently guide it back; don't yank on the rope. Remain calm. Later (after our third day of nothing but anapana) as our persistence and concentration developed, he would ask us to focus on more subtle sensations: viz. the touch of the breath below the nostrils and above the upper lip; he also mentioned the tip of the nose later on. Goenka said that the more subtle and small the area of concentration, and the longer you can hold it there continuously, the greater your discernment becomes. ----- Vipassana (goenka method): After your concentration has developed, you can move to Vipassana - observing sensations on the body. In a sutta (I forgot which one) it is said that everything is manifested as a sensation on the body (the four frames/foundations of mindfulness) whether feelings (pleasant, unpleasant, neither), mind conditions, or mind in regard to the five hinderances. Vipassana is done by focusing your attention to certain parts of the body whether in points, sections, or in a sweeping / scanning motion and sensing what if felt/detected there. In the beginning you should stay in each area for a minute or so until you 'feel' or become aware of that area. They begin with the point on tip top of the head/crown. Then they scan slowly down the front face, back of the head, etc. to cover the entire body. It is not important what order, only that you keep the same order. This progresses to eventually scanning the entire body in one breath; top to bottom in one out breath, bottom to top in one in breath. It is amazing how this entire process builds the sensitivity and discernment of what is going on inside of you. ----- Lately I have been trying to perform the Maha Satipatthana Sutta version of Anapana to the letter. I will post a previous post I made on another discussion group on the differences: The Goenka method (first let me state that I have only gone to one 10 day course), is the following: Meditation to develop samadhi (Anapana): is accomplished by concentrating ones attention / awareness on the sensation of the touch of the breath at the tip of the nose, or a point under the nose above the upper lip. Vipassana meditation: is accomplished by focusing awareness to sensations on the body, first, in small parts/sections and points, then later, progresses to scanning the entire body from head to toe, toe to head in a mass sweep per in/out breath. During my course Vipassana and Samadhi meditation was never done simultaneously. --- In contrast, if I took the instructions of the Maha Satipatthana Suttanta verbatim: Then it is as follows: "Mindful let him inhale, mindful let him exhale. Whether he inhale a long breath, let him be conscious thereof; or whether he exhale a long breath, let him be conscious thereof. Whether he inhale a short breath, or exhale a short breath let him be conscious thereof. (This following section comes later in the sutta; It is posted out of sequence): 'Even as a skillful turner, or turner's apprentice, drawing his string out at length, or drawing it out short, is conscious that he is doing one or the other, so let a brother practice inhaling and exhaling' Let him practice with the thought 'Conscious of my whole body will I inhale; Let him practise with the thought 'Conscious of my whole body will I exhale'. Let him practice with the thought 'I will inhale tranquilizing my bodily organism'; Let him practice with the thought 'I will exhale tranquilizing my bodily organism' --- I interpret the Maha Sattipatthana Suttanta, as one simultaneously doing Anapana and Vipassana. The object of awareness as described here is not only - the touch (bodily sensation) of the breath at a certain point, but instead, it is the lenght of the breath (or one can say - the motion of the breath, or the breath in-itself). Of course one can infer the lenght of the breath from the touch of the breath, but the lenght/motion of the breath in itself can also be inferred from the many sensations which are occuring, since one is also simultaneously concious of the whole body; One can hear the breath, one can feel the chest, and entire body cavity expanding and contracting. --- So I will point out here the main differences between the Goenka method and Maha Satipatthana Suttanta verbatim: 1) Goenka: One alternates between Anapana and Vipassana meditation, it is never done simultaneously (at least from what I have learned from one 10 day course). Maha Sattipatthana Suttanta: One does both Anapana and Vipassana meditation simultaneously. 2) Goenka: One directs their awareness to their body either in points, parts / sections, or in a sweeping motion. Maha Sattipatthana Suttanta: One directs their awareness to their entire body as a whole. (In an essay written by Bhikku Thanissaro titled 'Basic Breath Meditation Instructions' he does a combination: he first begins with anapana as in the Goenka method then directs his awareness to parts/points of the body; 'Once you have the breath comfortable at your chosen spot, move your attention to notice how the breathing feels in other parts of the body.'; Then he directs his awareness to his entire body as a whole: ... and then let your conscious awareness spread to fill the entire body, from the head down to the toes, so that you're like a spider sitting in the middle of a web: It's sitting in one spot, but it's sensitive to the entire web. Keep your awareness expanded like this ...') http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/breathmed.html 3) The third difference is the object of awareness regarding anapana: Goenka: The object of awareness in Anapana is specifically the touch of the breath at a specific point. Maha Sattipatthana Suttanta: The object of awareness is the lenght (or motion) of the breath. --- I personally alternate between the two methods, and feel there is benefit in either method. I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on this. I will share some of mine: - I feel that if you focused first on the body sequencially through parts and sections, that there is more heightened sensitivity when you later focus on the whole. - However I feel that if you only constinue to sweep or scan in sections of the body, that your mind is occupied with the thoughts and deliberations of the order or motion of scanning your body, and takes away the possibility of attaining a steady state of calm concentration. - I feel that if I focused only on the touch of the breath, that I can get myself frustrated with trying to detect that subtle touch and lose my concentration, where as if I concentrated on the lenght / motion of the breath-itself, from all the sensations I feel in my body, then it is easier to find my object (of concentration). - On the other hand, I feel that if I focused on the entire body during anapana my awareness wanders between the various sensations as they arise. ----- Let us keep in mind that there are many different types of meditations which one can perform for the investigation of dhammas apart from bare attention on the entire body and its sensations. Just as important are guided and sustained meditations on objects which include the use of memory and recollection: For example, during reflection and investigation into the constitution of the body and its parts you can recall a memory of seeing an animal being gutted in the past, splayed out in its parts, and you reflect: 'this body, too, is even so constituted, is of even such a nature, has not got beyond that (fate).' D.ii.295. Also when reflecting on how things come to be, and pass away: body, feelings (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral), mental conditions, etc. You are recalling a sequence of moments in time from memory. From Nagasena in Questions of King Milinda: 'There are certain types of meditation, O king, that have been made known by the Blessed One, ... by the Arahant ... And they are these. The idea of impermanence (of every thing and every being), the idea of the absence of any abiding principle (any soul or any thing in any living being), ... the idea of evil (unskillful) dispositions, the idea of freedom from passion,... the idea of love...sympathy... to all beings,...', etc. ... and so meditation is not always just bare attention. --- Also as everyone knows, the Maha Satipatthana Sutta makes it clear, as does Goenka in his specific instruction, that this mindfulness on oneself should not end once your butt gets off the seat cushion, but should continue (as practically possible) throughout every conscious moment of the day. Personally, my greatest realizations occur during life activity, not while sitting. Don't try so hard to the point of frustration and suffering since the intention is to get rid of just that. I would appreciate any thoughts comments or personal techniques and experiences anyone has to share. Peace and metta, nori 34840 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Andrew, > > > I think this whole discussion has been > > useful in making plain the fundamental issue at stake i.e. whether > > the anatta teaching is a description of reality to be realised or > a technique to be used and abandoned. I accept the first > proposition. > > > Maybe the situation is not as dire as you suggest. Have > you considered this? Instead of making it an either/or > proposition try both/and. Just a thought. Throw it away > if it does not resonate with your way of looking at > things. Hi Eric Thanks for your suggestion. I did toy with the idea of this being a "both" situation but it didn't gel with me. If in fact there is a self but we are to pretend there isn't (or at least refuse to categorically state that there is or isn't) in order to achieve some goal ... well, it sticks in my craw. In that case, why don't we believe in reincarnation instead of rebirth? Think about it. If there *is* something that is self across time, the whole Dhamma starts to dismantle. What happens to impermanence? Do we also refuse to state one way or the other whether all dhammas are impermanent? Religious scholars tell us that anatta is the defining and unique characteristic of the Buddhadhamma. And yet, it seems, some followers are teaching that it isn't true, just a little mind exercise? Eric, your faith (saddha) is obviously not shaken by such issues at this stage. That's great. May you go on to flourish in the Dhamma. Best wishes Andrew 34841 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Reliability of the Oral Tradition in preserving the Teachings Hi Christine, A fascinating article. Thanks. When, do you think, were the section headings introduced into the suttas? Or do you believe they were part and parcel of the spoken suttas already? And did the Buddha specify the names of the suttas? Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Sunday, 25 July 2004 7:42 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Reliability of the Oral Tradition in preserving the Teachings Dear Group, This may be of interest to those who wonder whether the Three Baskets could possibly be the exact Teachings of the Blessed One due to the years when they were passed on by the Reciters. http://tinyurl.com/3ke38 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34842 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:07pm Subject: Re: Developing Faith Dear Rob M, I like the following quote as a way to develop faith. It is similar to Buddhanussati except that it is about hearing about the Buddha second-hand which is our problem in the modern age. "The brahman householders of Sala heard: "A monk called Gotama, it seems, a son of the Sakyans who went forth from a Sakyan clan, has been wandering in the Kosalan country with a large Sangha of bhikkhus and has come to Sala. Now a good report of Master Gotama has been spread to this effect: 'That Blessed One is such since he is Arahant and Fully Enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable teacher of men to be tamed, teacher of gods and humans, enlightened, blessed. He describes this world with its gods, its Maras, and its (Brahma) Divinities, this generation with its monks and brahmans, with its kings and its people, which he has himself realized through direct knowledge. He teaches a Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end with (the right) meaning and phrasing, he affirms a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure.' Now it is good to see such Arahants." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn041.html 34843 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, .. > Ouch. I seem to be under attack today! So much for a pleasant Sunday > afternoon. > > ================================================= > H > I'm sorry, Jon, no intended attack from me. I'm truly sorry my > message arrived in that way. :-) No apology necesary, I assure you. My comment was meant in jest, and I should have made that clearer. Likewise, my comments that followed (see below) should be read as somewhat tongue-in-cheek; again, I should have made sure that came through clearly. Enjoying our exchanges, as I hope you are too. Will reply to your comments as soon as time allows. Cheers Jon > ================================================= > OK then, let me see ... > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63, Sankhitta Sutta, In Brief > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html > > "Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having > bowed > down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the > Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the > Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I > might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." " > > OK Herman, you've won your wager already. I immediately spotted this as > not applying to me, in that: > (a) I would never ask for a teaching *in brief*; I would always need to > hear the full works, and then more than once, and > (b) 'heedful, ardent, & resolute' just isn't me, I'm afraid. > > [Sutta continues:] > "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but > then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right > behind me." > > On the other hand, this sounds like me: I would definitely want to tag > along behind the Buddha... 34844 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:20pm Subject: Re: Reliability of the Oral Tradition in preserving the Teachings Dear Christine, Here is a link about Mingun Sayadaw: A Fabulous Memory The Guinness Book Records of 1985 has this entry: Human memory: Bhandanta Vicitsara (sic) recited 16,000 pages of Buddhist canonical texts in Rangoon, Burma in May 1954. Rare instance of eidetic memory the ability to project and hence "usually" recall material are known to science. The Venerable Mingun Sayadaw U Vicittasarabhivamsa was the first even in Buddhist lands to win the titles Tipitakadhara Dhammabhandagarika (Bearer of the Three Pitakas and Keeper of the Dhamma Treasure). http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Suttas/Paritta/BioMingun/biomingun.html metta / Antony 34845 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Developing Faith Hi Rob, Vism XIV 140 gives the proximate cause of faith as the factors of stream entry: hearing the good dhamma, associating with good people, proper attention, and practice in accordance with dhamma. In "The Buddhist Path of Awakening" Gethin argues that saddha should be understood as trust and confidence with an aspect of what one might call virtuous attachment specifically toward the Buddha rather than as belief. It is a motivating factor that advances one along the path. Note 31 in Vism. chapter XXI "the three faculties are faith, concentration, and understanding..." ..."The faith faculty is strong in one who contemplates impermanence much, the concentration faculty is strong in one who contemplates pain much, and the understanding faculty is strong in one who contemplates not-self much..." Larry 34846 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/25/04 8:32:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi again, Ken, Andrew, Mike, and all - > > > > I just reread part 4 of Ven Thanissaro's article "The Not- > Self > >Strategy". In this section he seems to recognize Right View as a > part of the well > >known raft of the Buddha's that must be put down on reaching the > far shore. He > >seems to be indicating in this section, and giving suttic evidence > to show, that > >complete awakening to reality requires a *total* relinquishment > which > >includes giving up all views entirely. I find that position to be > interesting, though > >of more theoretical interest and less pragmatic interest than Ven T > seems to > >think. Right View begins as conceptual right view, and it is > pragmatically > >necessary to point one in the right direction - to properly orient > the mind. As > >there is progress, however, Right View evolves into wisdom, and > wisdom leads to > >uprooting and relinquishment. > > Hi Howard > > Thanks for these thoughts. I think this whole discussion has been > useful in making plain the fundamental issue at stake i.e. whether > the anatta teaching is a description of reality to be realised or a > technique to be used and abandoned. I accept the first proposition. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I accept both, with reservations. I think that the anatta teaching is as true a description of reality as any proposition can be, but I believe that any proposition pales in comparison to the directly apprehended reality, and, because of that, the abandoning requires no volitional action - it is automatic. -------------------------------------------- > > I do see how those who are averse to Abhidhamma would not be > receptive to the proposition that Right View is a wholesome mental > factor. As a path factor, it is wisdom as you say. > > On a more mundane level, we are advised to listen to and reflect upon > the Dhamma - does that only involve thinking with concept as object? > Or does it involve mind-base taking a paramattha dhamma as object and > experiencing it with understanding? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say the first, but I believe the first is a condition for the cultivation of the second. ---------------------------------------------------- That would be a "direct hit" of > > satipatthana, wouldn't it? What about all the "misses" before > the "direct hit"? Can any of those "misses" (eg with concept as > object) have Right View as a mental factor? > Can you (or anyone else) help with these questions? > > Best wishes > Andrew > > PS my notes seem to indicate that every beautiful consciousness has > some Right View except sense-sphere consciousness dissociated from > knowledge. > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34847 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 0:49am Subject: Re: Reliability of the Oral Tradition in preserving the Teachings Dear Antony, Yes, this is an excellent article! Thank you. Bhikkhu Pesala has lots of interesting items at the website. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Here is a link about Mingun Sayadaw: > > A Fabulous Memory > > The Guinness Book Records of 1985 has this entry: > > Human memory: Bhandanta Vicitsara (sic) recited 16,000 pages of > Buddhist canonical texts in Rangoon, Burma in May 1954. Rare > instance of eidetic memory the ability to project and hence > "usually" recall material are known to science. The Venerable > Mingun Sayadaw U Vicittasarabhivamsa was the first even in > Buddhist lands to win the titles Tipitakadhara Dhammabhandagarika > (Bearer of the Three Pitakas and Keeper of the Dhamma Treasure). > http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Suttas/Paritta/BioMingun/bioming un.html > > metta / Antony 34848 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" > Religious scholars tell us that anatta is the defining and unique > characteristic of the Buddhadhamma. And yet, it seems, some > followers are teaching that it isn't true, just a little mind > exercise? >=========== Dear Andrew Robert Eddison, (now bhikkhu Dhammanando) gave some very clear answers to someone about anatta on pali list a while back: ""5. How come many Pali translators, like Bodhi, or Nyanatiloka, use >Anatta as if to describe what the Attan is not? Firstly because this is linguistically correct. Secondly because both of the above translators subscribe to the mainstream Buddhist interpretation of anattaa, and not to any of the heterodox variants (e.g. those of the Puggalavadin schools in bygone days, or of Rhys Davids, George Grimm and Ven. Thanissaro in more recent times). >What use would there be to state what the Attan is not if all the word >Attan meant was: himelf, oneself, herself, etc... within the Buddhist >context? But whoever made such a claim? Though "himelf, oneself, herself, etc" are probably the most common meanings of attaa in narrative passages, they don't by any means exhaust the range of applications this word has in Pali. >What use would there be to say that the 5 skandhas are Anatta if >there was no Attan at all? Because worldlings don't know that there's no attaa at all and this non-knowing leads them into suffering."" enquote http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/848 34849 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Thank you and I am glad that you had a nice trip to > Switzerland. Did you learn how to yodel? Hehehehe…;-)) .... S: Now that wouldn’t be a pretty sound.....especially right now as I picked up a bug on return and my voice is very hoarse;-(( .... > James: There is always going to be reading between the lines, even > of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. What this group mainly does > is hash out the differences in what different people read between > the lines, of the entire Tipitaka. ... S: That would be a good alternative home page description! .... >Of course there comes a time > when so much thought needs to be put aside and the real practice > must begin (satipatthana and jhana). .... S: Hopefully the former leads into the latter or rather, they are developed while considering and reflecting.... .... > James: I think that you are extremely over-stating the > qualifications for a sotapanna. <...> .... S: As I see it, on the other hand, the value in appreciating the high level of wisdom required and not over-stating present levels is: a) less chance of delusion in this regard b) more appreciation of ariyan wisdom c) common kilesa (defilements) such as issa (jealousy/envy), stinginess, wrong views of self or other wrong views, clinging to daily rituals with regard to practice, doubts about the path/kamma/rebirth/conditions/nama & rupa, lack of full confidence in the Triple Gem, non-adherence to following the precepts (in thought as well as deed) etc can be seen as so very common in our daily life -- far more common than we might realize in fact. d) when these defilements arise, rather than being seen as indications that the texts must have it wrong with regard to descriptions of ariyans or as hindrances one would prefer not to acknowledge, they can be welcomed as common realities to be known. ... > Sarah: More and more complicated than we ever realized - I'm > confident in time that you'll really appreciate the precision of the > Abhidhamma. > > James: The only way that I might appreciate the precision of the > Abhidhamma is if I could read it for myself, in English and well- > translated. .... S: As you like B.Bodhi’s translations and notes, I highly recommend his translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha with his explanatory notes after each section. I think it meets all your criteria. It’s translated as ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’ (usually referred to as CMA on this list), and is a relatively inexpensive and slim text. It’s published in hard copy by BPS and soft copy (US$24) by Pariyatti. This is a manual which condenses the whole Abhidhamma and has been accepted and widely used in Theravada since compiled in the 10th century. I think you’d find it an excellent reference source and after reading the messages carefully on DSG for some time as you’ve been doing and having read BB’s sutta translations such as SN with commentary notes, you’d be surprised at how much of the content is familiar to you. Metta, Sarah ===== 34850 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reliability of the Oral Tradition in preserving the Teachings Hello Herman, I have no knowledge that they weren't part of the spoken suttas, and think it probable that they were. I recall that even in an English recitation of poetry, the title is announced by the Reciter. In plays, the various acts are announced either by signs or announcements. So I imagine it would be likely in other cultures. What do you think? I think the Buddha could have given many of the important suttas names - The Madhupindika Sutta MN 18 The Ball of Honey sutta springs to mind "Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Lord, it's as if a man -- overcome with hunger, weakness, & thirst -- were to come across a ball of honey. Wherever he were to taste it, he would experience a sweet, delectable flavor. In the same way, wherever a monk of capable awareness might investigate the meaning of this Dhamma discourse with his discernment, he would experience gratification, he would experience confidence. What is the name of this Dhamma discourse?" "Then, Ananda, you can remember this Dhamma discourse as the 'Ball of Honey Discourse.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ananda delighted in the Blessed One's words." It is likely that well-loved suttas also developed popular names - nick-names if you will. The Kalama sutta for example is also called the Kesaputta sutta, but will forever be known in the West only as the Kalama sutta. Those reciting the suttas would have needed a skilful method to identify them - they couldn't start every chanting session with "now,chaps, how about the sutta where the Buddha analysed conflict - you know, the one about papanca - that Dandapani the Sakyan didn't like - and where Ven. Maha Kacana drew out the detailed meaning after the Blessed One gave it in brief. No, no not the one about the goal not being for one who enjoys proliferation - the 'other' one ... you know ... augghh! it's on the tip of my tongue ..." How much simpler for the Reciters to just say "Brethren, shall we begin the Ball of Honey sutta - on the count of three ..." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > A fascinating article. Thanks. > > When, do you think, were the section headings introduced into the > suttas? Or do you believe they were part and parcel of the spoken suttas > already? And did the Buddha specify the names of the suttas? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 34851 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism Hi Demian, Welcome to DSG! Hope you'll introduce yourself a little more. Where do you live? (Certainly not in Hong Kong if you have the choice of free-range eggs;-)). --- Demian Meyer wrote: > Hello, > > I think that though this happens, we as consumers can choose what to, > and > what not to purchase in regards to animal products. For example we can > choose to buy cage free eggs, with the animal care certified label. .... S: While all of this is true -- and there may be many good reasons for such a choice --, I'm not sure that any of them should be considered as rules or guidelines for following the Buddha's teachings which are always concerned with the present mental states I believe. ..... > On a side note I have a question: > > What type of shoes can you buy that are durable enough for hard terrain, > and > warm enough for weather conditions, that are not made from leather? ... S: How about goretex boots from a hiking shop? Look forward to more of your contributions, Metta, Sarah ===== 34852 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction Hi Andrew L, Thanks for joining us and introducing yourself too. Like Christine, I’m glad to see you found the photo album and hope you find the discussions helpful. May I ask where you live as well? --- suicidal_one2004 wrote: > Hello, > > My name is Andrew. > > I have been studying and practising Theravada Buddhism on and off for > about one year now. I sometimes establish myself in some of the four > foundations of mindfulness, and have had success, insight, and > purification with this path. I wish to pursue vipassana meditation > culminating in stream-entry in this lifetime, and I am interested in > the jhanas. .... S: I think that having a ‘time-frame’ as you and others give can be a spur and an obstacle. It’s one thing to see the opportunity for development of the path at each precious moment and another thing to wish (nearly always with some attachment, I find) for a particular result at a particular time. Friends often quote here how patience is the highest asceticism. .... > I have the desire to live an upright moral life but I sometimes have > difficulty keeping the precepts and get off course. .... S: As I just mentioned in another post, I think it’s important to see what beginners we are and not to have too many expectations of ourselves. This doesn’t mean that we don’t learn to see the value and importance of ‘an upright moral life’ and the development of all kinds of wholesome states. When we fall, we can begin again and even understand the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, one at a time, as and when we fall. .... >I'm not in the > best of health, but I'm learning, and I have good friends, so I think > I have a good shot at this. ... S: I hope your health improves and I’m glad you have good friends. I hope we can also be your good friends too. According to the Buddha, we’re all sick with perverted perceptions whenever there is greed, hatred or delusion, however slight. This is most of the day. .... > Learned about DSG from a post on E-Sangha, the Internet Buddhist Web > Forum at http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php with some links to > Bhikku Bodhi's articles about the jhanas not being necessary for > stream-entry. .... S: Thanks for telling us. I’ve been meaning to add some further comments on the series but have been busy and sick too since my return from a trip. (Thanks, Christine for posting the links to the series in a post). Do you have any comments yourself? .... > Hope to discuss dharma fruitfully with all of you. :-) ... S: I’m also enjoying your comments and extracts quoted. If you have time, please look at some saved posts under ‘Satipatthana Sutta and commentary’ in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I see the 4 Foundations as relating to various realities which can be the object of mindfulness and wisdom, one at a time and without any special selection, like right now. Otherwise, an idea of self and me and control slips in so easily and as others are discussing, anatta is the cornerstone of the Buddha’s teachings. I’ll be glad to hear your further comments and reflections. Metta, Sarah p.s I hope you don’t mind being ‘AndrewL’ to distinguish you from ‘AndrewA’..... I think we have another lurking Andy and Andrew too..... ====== 34853 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Robert, Thanks for your message; it's good to have you back. DSG has recently discussed bald statements such as "there is no self; there is no Nina" and so forth. Lodewijk, for one, does not like them because they are so negative and depressing. As you have just quoted, they can be taken as "conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism." Of course, for the purpose of Dhamma discussions, almost all of us find it acceptable to say, "There is no self." We have a mutual understanding that the annihilationist meaning is not intended. We use it as shorthand for the correct, somewhat lengthy, way of putting it. That is, where the Buddha asked Ananda; "If I... were to answer that there is a self, WOULD THAT BE IN KEEPING WITH THE ARISING OF KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL PHENOMENA ARE NOT-SELF? (Your capitals.) 'No, Lord.' Do you think the Buddha and his disciples used the simpler, "there is no self," version when talking amongst themselves? The Ancient Commentaries and (I think) the Abhidhamma-pitaka have no qualms about doing so. The sutta you have quoted continues: "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" Better-instructed (less-bewildered) disciples would not have had that problem. So I feel sure "there is no self" would, even in early times, have been standard terminology. -------------- RK: > Do you know if there is another article on Accesstoinsight entitled "The Impermanence Strategy"? ------------- :-) No I don't. I wonder if Mike asked TB about anicca. It is unlikely the reply would have touched on lakkhana: the venerable does not believe in ultimately real phenomena that bear characteristics. Queensland's DSG'ers are all looking forward to your visit, which is just two weeks away. I'll talk to you off-list about final arrangements. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear Ken, > I had a look at the article you mention. > The Venerable refers to the sutta to Vacchagotta > 34854 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Howard, You wrote: ------------------ > I agree with the assessment of yours <. . .> but that does not imply that he secretly believes in "self". > ------------------- My contention is that Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes no secret of his belief: he spells it out as best he can without actually saying the Buddha taught there is a self. We have seen how one or more dsg members, who are very familiar with TB's work, make no secret of self-belief. On one occasion, for example, we were given a compilation of Dhammapada quotes containing the words "you, me, he, they, a monk, yourself" and so on; the inference being, "Of course there is a self!" However, we are not to ask, "Is there a self" because, (we are told), "this line of inquiry is unskilful, connected with speculative reasoning, not connected with what the Buddha taught." Kind regards, Ken H 34855 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Mike, Nice to be chatting with you again. You wrote: -------------- > I think you're right about this and that it explains TB's contempt for abhidhamma (which he has expressed to me personally). > -------------------------- Yes, and I think the site's publisher John Bullitt, is transparent where he writes, "You won't find any texts from the Abhidhamma here, simply because I haven't found the Abhidhamma -- as fascinating as it certainly is -- to be particularly helpful to meditation practice." It is interesting to see the extent to which TB has been forced to rewrite the Dhamma in order to support his anatta-as-strategy theory. Even though several suttas expressly say Nibbana is a dhamma, and therefore not-self, TB purports to prove that it is neither. He has then set out to prove that conditioned dhammas (indisputably anatta) are not ultimately real. TB can ignore the Abhidhamma, but the Commentaries (no doubt needed in translation work) are another matter. He has therefore had to cast doubt on their reliability. In his notes to the Sabba Sutta, he is scathing of the Commentaries for (as he sees it) positing three "Alls" in addition to the "All" defined in the sutta. I suspect the inference intended is, "If the Commentaries can be wrong about this, they can be wrong about anatta." (!) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kenhowardau" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:13 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI > > >Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when > >arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had > >assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it > >seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. > 34856 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Sarah, Sarah: common kilesa (defilements) such as issa (jealousy/envy), stinginess, wrong views of self or other wrong views, clinging to daily rituals with regard to practice, doubts about the path/kamma/rebirth/conditions/nama & rupa, lack of full confidence in the Triple Gem, non-adherence to following the precepts (in thought as well as deed) etc can be seen as so very common in our daily life -- far more common than we might realize in fact. James: Where did you find this list? It seems to me that you are extrapolating a lot of different factors of stream-entry that the Buddha didn't teach. Here is what that Buddha taught in regards to stream-entry (sotapanna): "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html#sangha James: And what are the first three fetters? Here is what the Buddha taught: "There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-013.html James: So, the first three fetters are self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts and practices. Here is what you have you added that the Buddha didn't teach: Jealousy, stinginess, ANY wrong views, doubts about nama and rupa (i.e. Abhidhamma), non- adherence to following the precepts in thought as well as deed. Sarah, where did you come up with these extra items? I can understand the need to be prudent when evaluating one's progress, but I don't think it is a good idea to add extra qualifications to what the Buddha taught. This can become a slippery slope which will lead to a corruption of the dhamma. Sarah: This is a manual which condenses the whole Abhidhamma and has been accepted and widely used in Theravada since compiled in the 10th century... James: Now, wait a second. How could I possibly learn to appreciate the Abhidhamma by reading a condensed version of it? That is like saying I could learn to appreciate Shakespeare by reading the Cliffs Notes versions of his plays...or a Cliffs Notes version of all of his plays in one!. To me, that is not correct. In order for me to truly know the Abhidhamma, I would have to read the entire thing- word for word and page for page- or I could not possibly get a real understanding of it. Metta, James 34857 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello Hello, Vital --- "bernard.vital" wrote: > Hello > > At the moment I work for dutch gouvernement as a legislative lawyer. A > lawyer who prepares laws and rules. Nice to meet another legislative drafter ;-)). I do exactly the same work for the Hong Kong government (although I will reach the compulsory retirement age next year). I know you've posted before, but let me take this chance to say welcome to the list. Jon 34858 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Ken, You wrote: The sutta you have quoted continues: "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" Better-instructed (less-bewildered) disciples would not have had that problem. So I feel sure "there is no self" would, even in early times, have been standard terminology. ============================ If the Nidana Samyutta is anything to go by, then a complete cycle of Dependent Origination was standard terminology for those in the company of the Buddha. It doesn't get abbreviated. Kind regards Herman 34859 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI I forgot the obvious: There is not even a tangential reference to self/not-self in any cycle of dependent origination. And you knew that :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: Herman Hofman [mailto:hhofman@t...] Sent: Monday, 26 July 2004 10:10 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Ken, You wrote: The sutta you have quoted continues: "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" Better-instructed (less-bewildered) disciples would not have had that problem. So I feel sure "there is no self" would, even in early times, have been standard terminology. ============================ If the Nidana Samyutta is anything to go by, then a complete cycle of Dependent Origination was standard terminology for those in the company of the Buddha. It doesn't get abbreviated. Kind regards Herman 34860 From: Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:38am Subject: Cultivating the Field: A Metaphor Reminiscent of Jesus Hi, all - In thinking over the recent exchange on not-self, rafts, wisdom, and, most particularly on right view - conventional and ultimate, the following metaphor occurs to me: Sila constitutes a basic removal of impurities from the mental soil - an initial step of cultivation, right effort is a further level of removal of impurities from the field, right concentation is the watering, and right mindfulness the plowing of the field. Conventional right view is the seed, with conventional right intention its proper planting, and ultimate right view is the tree of full blown wisdom, sprouted from the seed and supplanting it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34861 From: Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken (and Victor) - In a message dated 7/26/04 6:50:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You wrote: > ------------------ > >I agree with the assessment of yours <. . .> but that does not > imply that he secretly believes in "self". > > ------------------- > > My contention is that Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes no secret of his > belief: he spells it out as best he can without actually saying the > Buddha taught there is a self. > > We have seen how one or more dsg members, who are very familiar with > TB's work, make no secret of self-belief. On one occasion, for > example, we were given a compilation of Dhammapada quotes containing > the words "you, me, he, they, a monk, yourself" and so on; the > inference being, "Of course there is a self!" However, we are not to > ask, "Is there a self" because, (we are told), "this line of inquiry > is unskilful, connected with speculative reasoning, not connected > with what the Buddha taught." > > Kind regards, > Ken H ========================= I won't say that you certainly are wrong, because I do not know this. I don't think that Ven T expresses a self view, though I could be in error on this. I think he tries to avoid expression of view entirely. As far as Victor is concerned, he would have to speak for himself, but I suspect he may not because he doesn't consider this a matter proper of discussion, not being conducive to liberation. But whatever Victor's beliefs, one cannot always properly infer the beliefs of a teacher from the beliefs of a student, though the clarity of the teacher's communication might be questioned. BTW, since we all know that it is Victor whose views or non-views are being discussed, I see little point in avoiding his name. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34862 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:04am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 90 Tiika Vis. XIV, 90 Vis. 90: (a) Herein, (22)-(29) that 'rooted in greed' is of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, [false] view, and prompting, that is to say: (22) when accompanied by joy it is either associated-with-[false-] view and unprompted, or (23) prompted; or (24) it is dissociated-from-[false-] view and likewise [unprompted or (25) prompted]; and (26) when accompanied-by-equanimity it is either associated-with-[false-] view and unprompted, or (27) prompted; or (28) it is dissociated-from-[false-] view and likewise [unprompted, or (29) prompted]. Intro Tiika Vis. 90: The Visuddhimagga refers to the types of cittas rooted in attachment, classified as eightfold. They are the following: 1)accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted somanassa-sahagata.m di.t.thigata-sampayutta.m, asa"nkhaarika.m eka.m. 2)accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted somanassa-sahagata.m di.t.thigata-sampayutta.m, sasa"nkhaarika.m eka.m. 3)accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted somanassa-sahagata.m di.t.thigata-vippayutta.m, asa"nkhaarika.m eka.m. 4)accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted somanassa-sahagata.m di.t.thigata-vippayutta.m, sasa"nkhaarika.m eka.m. 5)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m di.t.thigata-sampayutta.m, asa"nkhaarika.m eka.m. 6)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m di.t.thigata-sampayutta.m, sasa"nkhaarika.m eka.m. 7)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m di.t.thigata-vippayutta.m, asa"nkhaarika.m eka.m. 8)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m di.t.thigata-vippayutta.m, sasa"nkhaarika.m eka.m. **** From this classification we see that one may adhere to wrong view with attachment, or that one may merely enjoy pleasant objects without there be any wrong view about this. Wrong view is a distorted view of realities. Because of wrong view one sees dhammas as permanent and self. The Tiika emphasizes that wrong view is a kind of adherence and that it therefore arises with the cittas rooted in attachment. It refers to texts about wrong view where it is said: ³this alone is truth, all else is falsehood². We read in M.N. II, no 72, Discourse to Vacchagotta on Fire, that Vacchagotta asks whether the Buddha has wrong view, such as : . He asked he same about the world not being eternal, the world being finite, infinite, etc. We read about the conditions for wrong view in the Expositor (II, p. 330): <...the hearing of evil doctrine, evil friendship, the desire not to see Ariyans, unsystematic thought [N: unwise attention]; ...unskilfulness in the Arian Law [N: Dhamma] of different kinds, such as the four applications of mindfulness, etc.; the absence of discipline or the destruction of restraint with respect to the Ariyan Law (divided into restraint taught in the Paatimokkha, the controlling faculties, mindfulness, knowledge, elimination) and the doctrine of good men; and addiction to tumultuous festivities by means of unsystematic thought developed by the foregoing reasons.> If one does not develop satipa.t.thaana one will continue to see realities as permanent and self, and wrong view cannot be eradicated. As we have seen, friendship with noble persons is an important condition for the development of right understanding and all kinds of kusala. It is helpful for having right attention to the objects that appear through the six doors, so that we can learn that they do not belong to us and are non-self. The Abhidhamma teaches us that the different types of kusala cittas and akusala cittas that arise are conditioned dhammas which are non-self. In order to see the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala we also need to read the detailed explanations of the suttas and this can strengthen our confidence in kusala. When someone has evil friendship, he will have no confidence in kusala and he will neglect to cultivate the right conditions for kusala. Thus he will be overcome more and more by the three unwholesome roots of attachment, aversion and ignorance. He will continue to accumulate wrong view and this will lead him further astray. There are three kinds of wrong view that are in particular very harmful: the view that there are no results of deeds, the view that there are no causes (in happening) and the view that there is no kamma. As to the view that there are no causes (ahetuka-di.t.thi), this means that there is no cause for the depravity and purity of beings, that one is bent by fate, chance and nature. If one is firmly convinced about these three views they are unwholesome courses of action through the mind, and they lead to the commitment of many other kinds of evil deeds. ***** Tiika Vis. 90: As to the expression, being classified according to joy, equanimity, [false] view, and prompting, this notion of classification should be seperately applied to the division of pleasant and indifferent feeling, to that of wrong view and to that of prompting. N: As we see in the enumeration of the eight types of cittas rooted in attachment, four are accompanied by pleasant feeling, four by indifferent feeling, four are with wrong view and four are without wrong view, four are unprompted and four are prompted. What should be said here has been told before. As to the expression accompanied by wrong view, di.t.thigata, this means just di.t.thi, wrong view, even as in the expressions guuthagata, excrement, and muttagata, urine. N: This is a word explanation of di.t.thigata, litterally: view-gone. The Expositor (II, p. 330) states: These expressions occur in A.N. IV, IX, 11. Here, ³gata² is untranslated. Tiika: Or also just gone into wrong view, a perverted grasping; here the subjects (of wrong view) should not be taken into account, and thus, its individual characteristic is wrong view. N: Elsewhere the subjects or bases of wrong view are taken into account. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 336): These are explained in the ŒNet of Views² (Brahmajaala Sutta, Diigha Nikaaya, no 1). Tiika: Therefore, as to the words, , these indicate that because of its nature of adherence it occurs together with attachment, not with aversion. ***** Nina 34863 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:04am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 90, Pali Tiika Vis. XIV, 90, Pali Vis. text: 90. tattha lobhamuula.m somanassupekkhaadi.t.thigatasa"nkhaarabhedato a.t.thavidha.m. seyyathida.m. somanassasahagata.m di.t.thigatasampayutta.m asa"nkhaara.m sasa"nkhaara~nca, tathaa di.t.thigatavippayutta.m. upekkhaasahagata.m di.t.thigatasampayutta.m asa"nkhaara.m sasa"nkhaara~nca, tathaa di.t.thigatavippayutta.m. (a) Herein, (22)-(29) that 'rooted in greed' is of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, [false] view, and prompting, that is to say: (22) when accompanied by joy it is either associated-with-[false-] view and unprompted, or (23) prompted; or (24) it is dissociated-from-[false-] view and likewise [unprompted or (25) prompted]; and (26) when accompanied-by-equanimity it is either associated-with-[false-] view and unprompted, or (27) prompted; or (28) it is dissociated-from-[false-] view and likewise [unprompted, or (29) prompted]. Tiika Vis. 90: Somanassupekkhaadi.t.thigatasa"nkhaarabhedatoti As to the expression, being classified according to joy, equanimity, [false] view, and prompting, somanassupekkhaabhedato di.t.thigatabhedato sa"nkhaarabhedatoti pacceka.m bhedasaddo yojetabbo. this notion of classification should be seperately applied to the division of pleasant and indifferent feeling, to that of wrong view and to that of prompting. N: As we see in the enumeration of the eight types of cittas rooted in attachment, four are accompanied by pleasant feeling, four by indifferent feeling, four are with wrong view and four are without wrong view, four are unprompted and four are prompted. Yadettha vattabba.m, ta.m he.t.thaa vuttanayameva. What should be said here has been told before. Di.t.thigatasampayuttanti di.t.thiyeva di.t.thigata.m ³guuthagata.m, muttagatan²ti (ma. ni. 2.119; a. ni. 9.11) yathaa. As to the expression accompanied by wrong view, di.t.thigata, this means just di.t.thi, wrong view, even as in the expressions guuthagata, excrement, and muttagata, urine. N: This is a word explanation of di.t.thigata, litterally: view-gone. The Expositor (II, p. 330) states: These expressions occur in A.N. IV, IX, 11. Here, ³gata² is untranslated. Tiika: Atha vaa vipariyesaggaahataaya di.t.thiyaa gatameva, na ettha gantabbavatthu tathaa sabhaavanti di.t.thigata.m. Or also just gone into wrong view, a perverted grasping; here the subjects (of wrong view) should not be taken into account, and thus, its individual characteristic is wrong view. N: Elsewhere the subjects or bases of wrong view are taken into account. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 336): These are explained in the ŒNet of Views² (Brahmajaala Sutta, Diigha Nikaaya, no 1). Tiika: Tayida.m ³idameva sacca.m, moghama~n~nan²ti abhinivesabhaavato lobheneva saddhi.m pavattati, na dosena. Therefore, as to the words, , these indicate that because of its nature of adherence it occurs together with attachment, not with aversion. ***** Nina. 34864 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Developing Faith Hi Andrew and Rob M, Andrew, I like what you write about confidence. I add something. op 26-07-2004 06:05 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Hi Rob M > > Just looking at my CMA. The proximate cause of saddha is hearing the > Dhamma. N: In my Cetasikas I use the definition of the Expositor (120) and the Vis (XIV, 140): the proximate cause of saddha is an object worthy of confidence or the factors of streamwinning. Among these are association with the right friend, listening, practice in accordance with the dhamma. It always begins with listening and indeed by listening and considering understanding grows and this bolsters our confidence. A: Its function is to clarify or set forth N: its function is purifying (N: like the water purifying gem) or aspiring confidence. A: and it manifests as > non-fogginess or resolution. N: freedom from pollution or decision as its manifestation. This is determination for kusala. Conditioned by hearing the True Dhamma. Reading suttas that instill confidence are very helpful. I just heard on MP3 that the Abhidhamma teaches about dhammas as non-self and that suttas help us very much to see the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. A: Perhaps the way to develop saddha is therefore to expose oneself to > the clarity of the Dhamma. That has been my experience. N: Yes, the more we listen and consider and intellectual understanding develops, also our confidence becomes stronger. It is one of the enlighhtenment factors that develop together with pañña of the eightfold Path. The translation on CMA is slightly different, what is the source? Rob, you and Eric mentioned reflection on dukkha. Yes, when we listen to true dhamma we learn what the Truth of dukkha is, we begin to understand the four noble Truths. The Truth of dukkha is deeper than just suffering, it is connected with seeing the impermanence of conditioned dhammas. Seeing that what arises and falls away cannot be our refuge. This can only be realized through insight that realizes the arising and falling away of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time through the six doorways. We learn about the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta, we learn about the development of insight stage by stage, so that eventually the three charactreistics of conditioned dhammas can be realized and the four noble Truths can be penetrated. As insight develops and direct understanding arises, also confidence grows, it becomes a power. The sotapanna has an unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem. Nina. 34865 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala citta with right view. Hi Andrew, four types of kusala cittas of the sense-sphere are accompanied by pañña or right view, four are unaccompanied by it. Right view is just another word for pañña. If something is not so clear, this subject is one of my favorite topics to elaborate on. Nina. op 26-07-2004 02:27 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > > PS my notes seem to indicate that every beautiful consciousness has > some Right View except sense-sphere consciousness dissociated from > knowledge. 34866 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: Developing Faith Hey Rob, I was just being practical. As the Sutta describes where faith lies in Trancendent Dependent Origination. It is conditioned by suffering and then faith conditions joy. Sort of like when a close loved one passes. You may be in the throes of despair for a long time. Your despair may consume your every waking moment. Then one day a glimmer of hope or faith arises that you one day will not feel this way for every waking moment. Then when faith is established, a jow arises that the despair is over. I think others posted some good stuff too. If your mind needs convincing then logical analysis is probably best. PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Eric and All, > > Very interesting but not completely satisfying. My "take away" is: > - If one's focus remains on pleasant things and the pursuit of them, > then there is no condition for faith to arise > - Reflecting on dukkha is a condition for faith to arise > > Does this imply that the way to build / strengthen / develop faith is > to reflect on dukkha? Is reflection on dukkha the only way to build / > strengthen / develop faith? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" > wrote: > > Hey Rob, > > I like this sutta in showing the importance of faith and > > where it is most relavant. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html > > > > It seems faith is conditioned by suffering. The way I think > > of it is, when one suffers, there comes a time when faith > > arises that suffering may one day end. > > > > PEACE > > > > E > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > > > wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > > > A quick question. I was recently asked how one develops faith. My > > > answer was something like the following: > > > > > > The Pali term saddha, often translated as faith, also includes > the > > > ideas of confidence or trust. The way that one builds up > > confidence > > > is by proper reflection. For example, when I first encountered > > > Buddhism, I had a problem with the concept of rebirth. When I > > started > > > reflecting on this issue, I realized that rebirth was the best > > > possible explanation for natural talents and tendencies. After > > > reflecting in this way, I had confidence in the concept of > rebirth. > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > I feel that my answer was incomplete. I am hoping that one of my > > DSG > > > friends can help me answer more completely (maybe even with a > > Sutta > > > quote). > > > > > > Metta, > > > Rob M :-) 34867 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 0:49pm Subject: Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hey Nori, Nice post! I was beginning to think this list was comprised of nothing but book buddhists! jk all you folks with ink on your fingers and no callouses on your butts! ;-) N> I personally alternate between the two methods, and feel there is benefit in either method. E: I agree. I do both plus some others. N>I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on this. N> I will share some of mine: N- I feel that if you focused first on the body sequencially through parts and sections, that there is more heightened sensitivity when you later focus on the whole. E: Yep. It is sort of activating a 'field' of awareness. When the points are activated the whole field becomes more strong. N- However I feel that if you only constinue to sweep or scan in sections of the body, that your mind is occupied with the thoughts and deliberations of the order or motion of scanning your body, and takes away the possibility of attaining a steady state of calm concentration. E: Yep. I only scan (or other similars) if I have an excess of 'mental' energy I need to burn off i.e. energy is overpowering concentration and mindfulness. However, once you have been scanning awhile it becomes a habit and you don't need to 'tell' yourself where to go next. N- I feel that if I focused only on the touch of the breath, that I can get myself frustrated with trying to detect that subtle touch and lose my concentration, where as if I concentrated on the lenght / motion of the breath-itself, from all the sensations I feel in my body, then it is easier to find my object (of concentration). E: Yep. I would put the 'following or hunting' method between scanning and going right to the tip of the nose. If my energy is in line with concentration and mindfulness but I am lacking a bit in concentration or mindfulness, then the 'following' method works great for me. I can do it for awhile (5 or 10 minutes)then focus on the nose area comes easier. N- On the other hand, I feel that if I focused on the entire body during anapana my awareness wanders between the various sensations as they arise. E : That may be because you have not sufficiently calmed the breath. Check out step 4 in Anapanasati. Are you doing this one? Or are you going from full body awareness directly to feelings? Try and spend some time (5 minutes) calming the breath and see what happens. ----- N> Let us keep in mind that there are many different types of meditations which one can perform for the investigation of dhammas apart from bare attention on the entire body and its sensations. E: Of course. N> Just as important are guided and sustained meditations on objects which include the use of memory and recollection: For example, during reflection and investigation into the constitution of the body and its parts you can recall a memory of seeing an animal being gutted in the past, splayed out in its parts, and you reflect: 'this body, too, is even so constituted, is of even such a nature, has not got beyond that (fate).' D.ii.295. E: I would call this more of a contemplation but I get your drift and agree. N... and so meditation is not always just bare attention. E: I am 100% with you. --- N>Also as everyone knows, the Maha Satipatthana Sutta makes it clear, as does Goenka in his specific instruction, that this mindfulness on oneself should not end once your butt gets off the seat cushion, but should continue (as practically possible) throughout every conscious moment of the day. Personally, my greatest realizations occur during life activity, not while sitting. E: still with you. N> Don't try so hard to the point of frustration and suffering since the intention is to get rid of just that. E: Well it is good to push yourself to be frustrated and suffer every once in awhile. Just in case you forgot about that 1st Truth and get into the calm too much. ;-) Thanks for sharing Nori! PEACE E 34868 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hey Andrew, A > Thanks for your suggestion. I did toy with the idea of this being a "both" situation but it didn't gel with me. If in fact there is a self but we are to pretend there isn't (or at least refuse to categorically state that there is or isn't) in order to achieve some goal ... well, it sticks in my craw. E: You have a better ideal in the way things should be? A : In that case, why don't we believe in reincarnation instead of rebirth? E: You are mixing relative and ultimate. TB is offering a practical strategy in the relative, where if you admit it to yourself, that is where you spend all of your time as 'Andrew' with his relative self centered concerns. Am I right or wrong? Don't worry about it, we all do this! A> Think about it. If there *is* something that is self across time, the whole Dhamma starts to dismantle. E: self is time. The Dhamma is not conditioned by time. A> What happens to impermanence? E: Don't worry, TB is not that powerful to effect the laws on nature. A: Do we also refuse to state one way or the other whether all dhammas are impermanent? E: I don't know about WE but I suggest you ask TB. call (619) 813-8461. Call 5-6 PST (6-7 PDT) every evening. A: Religious scholars tell us that anatta is the defining and unique characteristic of the Buddhadhamma. E: Is the Dhamma about scholarship or the Truth? Do you identify with this 'uniqueness' and so think you are special in some way? A: And yet, it seems, some followers are teaching that it isn't true, just a little mind exercise? E: Find out for yourself Andrew and forget about what anyone else says or wrote. A: Eric, your faith (saddha) is obviously not shaken by such issues at this stage. E: That is because I am not deceived by words Andrew. A: May you go on to flourish in the Dhamma. E: May you find the Truth outside of words Andrew! PEACE E 34869 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Andrew - ... > > Thanks for these thoughts. I think this whole discussion has been > > useful in making plain the fundamental issue at stake i.e. whether > > the anatta teaching is a description of reality to be realised or a > > technique to be used and abandoned. I accept the first proposition. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I accept both, with reservations. I think that the anatta > teaching is > as true a description of reality as any proposition can be, but I > believe that > any proposition pales in comparison to the directly apprehended reality, > and, > because of that, the abandoning requires no volitional action - it is > automatic. > -------------------------------------------- You say "the abandoning requires no volitional action - it is automatic." Well said! The abandoning happens automatically, because the necessary effort accompanies the right understanding. Now consider that same scenario in other contexts ;-)). Jon PS I have some difficulty in seeing how one could hold that in giving his teaching on anatta the Buddha intended it to be both a description of reality to be realised and at the same time a technique to be used and abandoned. This seems to be a contradiction in terms. The analogy of the teachings as a raft should not in my view be regarded as saying the teachings as a whole are *merely a technique*, since that leaves room for other views to be held about what lies beyond the point where the (mere) technique is abandoned. 34870 From: Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additiona... In a message dated 7/25/04 9:45:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: What greatly affects the level of ones awareness (amongst the many things) is the intention of becoming. One who is caught up in agendas of becoming has a mind full of thoughts and deliberation in regard to that becoming. One who is only intent on emancipation from suffering, alone, has less thoughts to deal with and has more awareness and ability of concentration for what is most important to his/her life. ===== Nori, I'm not sure of the distinction between being caught up in an agenda of becoming and an agenda of emancipation from suffering. They both seem the same to me. Both are agendas. At times I sit with an agenda. For instance, I might run through the first 4 steps of the Anap. Sutta. But, then after this I try to just sit, no agenda, no trying to become, no trying to reach emancipation of suffering. Both sitting with agenda and without seem important to me though I try to sit most of the time without agenda. Here is an example. A few days ago, I spent some of my meditation time deliberately noting the beginning and end of each breath as well as the physical sensations of pressure and coolness of the breath. Then when I just sat without agenda, without effort, my awareness of these phenomena was much clearer. I might find myself doing wihout effort what I was doing before with effort. I probably just sit 90% of the time and work deliberately with an agenda 10%. Jack 34871 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta and spinach Eric Popeye and spinach. Now you're talking language I can relate to (btw, love the stuff) ;-)) But Eric, it's no good changing your diet thinking its going to work miracles unless that's what the doctor was really saying. So did he say it has to be spinach for everyone, of did he put it high on the list of good sources of certain useful supplements? Jon --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey, jon > > Thanks for all the info but I am familiar with all of it. > Let's try an analogy to help clarify things. Let us use > Popeye and spinach. You are saying that when Popeye eats > spinach he gets all powerful. Now you feel that if and > when you eat spinach you wont get that power or maybe you > can't stomach the spinach. Which is fine as long as you are > eating say kale to get the nourishment that is in spinach. > But that does not mean that others won't get any nourishment > from spinach because they won't get the same 'reaction' from > the spinach as Popeye. Even if you can't palate it the > spinach is still good for you. > > PEACE > > E 34872 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I forgot the obvious: There is not even a tangential reference to > self/not-self in any cycle of dependent origination. Hi Herman Sorry to have to remind you that there are dullards like me reading as well! (-: Why is what you say obvious? What are the obvious implications of what you say? Could it be that there is not even a tangential reference to self/not- self in any cycle of dependent origination because there is NO self? Best wishes Andrew 34873 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:25pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Developing Faith Hi Nina, I just want to make a non-combative comment on the following: "The Truth of dukkha is deeper than just suffering, it is connected with seeing the impermanence of conditioned dhammas. Seeing that what arises and falls away cannot be our refuge." ============================= I wonder whether impermanence itself is dukkha, or whether it is the looking for "our refuge" that is dukkha. Impermanence in itself is not a problem, in fact knowing that all things must and will change can be a great source of comfort and faith when in a deep pit. It is wanting things that have been labeled me, mine and I to stay the same so that the mirage of a self can be perpetuated a little longer. With the evaporation of self-view, the nature of reality does not alter. If impermanence in itself were dukkha, then there would be no end to suffering. ============================== " This can only be realized through insight that realizes the arising and falling away of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time through the six doorways. We learn about the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta, we learn about the development of insight stage by stage, so that eventually the three charactreistics of conditioned dhammas can be realized and the four noble Truths can be penetrated. As insight develops and direct understanding arises, also confidence grows, it becomes a power. The sotapanna has an unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem. Kind regards Herman 34874 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala citta with right view. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew, > four types of kusala cittas of the sense-sphere are accompanied by pañña or > right view, four are unaccompanied by it. Right view is just another word > for pañña. If something is not so clear, this subject is one of my favorite > topics to elaborate on. > Nina. Dear Nina Thank you for this clarification. I am a little unsure about beautiful citta dissociated from knowledge and how it relates to avijja and moha. If you have any time to say something about this, I would be most appreciative. Many thanks Andrew 34875 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Andrew, If you are a dullard, then I am a dustrag to the dullards :-) Would you say that Tuesday is green or Tuesday is not green? If you are a pupil of Aristotle, you are bound to say there is no green Tuesday, because everything is yes or no, true or false. There is no excluded middle. I think the Buddhist position is that because self is a meaningless proposition, then the negation of a meaningless proposition is also meaningless. Those Greeks have a lot to answer for :-) Have a great day Herman -----Original Message----- From: Andrew [mailto:athel60@t...] Sent: Tuesday, 27 July 2004 8:20 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I forgot the obvious: There is not even a tangential reference to > self/not-self in any cycle of dependent origination. Hi Herman Sorry to have to remind you that there are dullards like me reading as well! (-: Why is what you say obvious? What are the obvious implications of what you say? Could it be that there is not even a tangential reference to self/not- self in any cycle of dependent origination because there is NO self? Best wishes Andrew 34876 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Robert, Good to see you posting again. ============================== Giving up self, it can be done right at the moment fear is strongest. One can become a hero right then and there, it can be the doorway to the selfless. Not a strategy, but the absolute truth. If this happens a few times one will not think they have to be in a special place or position. The Dhamma is Dhamma at all times - it is the only refuge. =============================== I agree with you. Giving up self *CAN* be done. One *CAN* become a hero, it *CAN* be a doorway. The question is, *DOES* it happen? Is the Tipitaka merely a book about what *CAN* happen? Kind regards Herman 34877 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Eric Not sure where this discussion is going but I've interspersed some comments below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > A : In that case, why don't we believe in reincarnation instead of > rebirth? > > E: You are mixing relative and ultimate. TB is offering a > practical strategy in the relative, where if you admit it > to yourself, that is where you spend all of your time > as 'Andrew' with his relative self centered concerns. > Am I right or wrong? Don't worry about it, we all do this! Andrew: It seems to me from the direct quotations of TB posted by Ken H, you are putting words into TB's mouth here. His views (even if he doesn't like that term) appear to go beyond the relative. Perhaps somebody so inclined could post a direct quotation that demonstrates what you, Eric, say is the case? > A> Think about it. If there *is* something that is self across time, > the whole Dhamma starts to dismantle. > > E: self is time. The Dhamma is not conditioned by time. Andrew: You've lost me here. Perhaps I could re-phrase my sentence thus "If there *is* something that is a permanent self, the whole Dhamma starts to dismantle". Agree? > A> What happens to impermanence? > > E: Don't worry, TB is not that powerful to effect > the laws on nature. Andrew: Sorry, I don't think I made that suggestion. Now you're putting words into *my* mouth! (-: (-: > A: Do we also refuse to state one way or the other > whether all dhammas are impermanent? > > E: I don't know about WE but I suggest you ask TB. > call (619) 813-8461. Call 5-6 PST (6-7 PDT) every evening. > > A: Religious scholars tell us that anatta is the > defining and unique characteristic of the Buddhadhamma. > > E: Is the Dhamma about scholarship or the Truth? Do you > identify with this 'uniqueness' and so think you are > special in some way? Andrew: I probably do think I am special. That's mana (conceit) and I don't deny its presence. Scholarship or Truth? Now *that's* an "either/or" that should be a "both" IMHO. Do you believe that accurate and fair-minded scholarship (arising with saddha) is the opposite to Truth - in all cases, I assume? > A: And yet, it seems, some followers are teaching > that it isn't true, just a little mind exercise? > > E: Find out for yourself Andrew and forget about what > anyone else says or wrote. Andrew: Even the Buddha? Even arahants? > A: Eric, your faith (saddha) is obviously not shaken > by such issues at this stage. > > E: That is because I am not deceived by words Andrew. > > A: May you go on to flourish in the Dhamma. > > E: May you find the Truth outside of words Andrew! Andrew: BTW, Eric, I've looked it up in a book. Callouses on the butt are not-self. (joke) Keep smiling, my friend. You must find talking to the likes of me rather trying - so a little joke can go a long way. All the best for your practice. Andrew 34878 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Herman I take it then that there is not even a tangential reference to self/no-self in DO because "self is a meaningless proposition"? I can live with that - but only because I attribute the meaninglessness of the proposition to its unreality. Do you agree that if permanent self were a reality, that would bugger up the whole Dhamma? Andrew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > If you are a dullard, then I am a dustrag to the dullards :-) > > Would you say that Tuesday is green or Tuesday is not green? If you are > a pupil of Aristotle, you are bound to say there is no green Tuesday, > because everything is yes or no, true or false. There is no excluded > middle. > > I think the Buddhist position is that because self is a meaningless > proposition, then the negation of a meaningless proposition is also > meaningless. Those Greeks have a lot to answer for :-) 34879 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Andrew, I agree with you, with a little proviso. Permanent self is a view only, an object of clinging, and to that extent it has existence. No permanent self as a view, an object of clinging, is as samsaric as a belief in self. Beyond view is what the dhamma points to. I am waiting for a delivery before I can do what my diary says I gotta do. You working today? Catch u later Herman -----Original Message----- From: Andrew [mailto:athel60@t...] Sent: Tuesday, 27 July 2004 9:03 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Herman I take it then that there is not even a tangential reference to self/no-self in DO because "self is a meaningless proposition"? I can live with that - but only because I attribute the meaninglessness of the proposition to its unreality. Do you agree that if permanent self were a reality, that would bugger up the whole Dhamma? Andrew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > If you are a dullard, then I am a dustrag to the dullards :-) > > Would you say that Tuesday is green or Tuesday is not green? If you are > a pupil of Aristotle, you are bound to say there is no green Tuesday, > because everything is yes or no, true or false. There is no excluded > middle. > > I think the Buddhist position is that because self is a meaningless > proposition, then the negation of a meaningless proposition is also > meaningless. Those Greeks have a lot to answer for :-) 34880 From: Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/26/04 5:54:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > PS I have some difficulty in seeing how one could hold that in giving his > teaching on anatta the Buddha intended it to be both a description of > reality to be realised and at the same time a technique to be used and > abandoned. This seems to be a contradiction in terms. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I mean is that 1) the proposition is true, and 2) the contemplating of it and the use of it to direct the mind in observing phenomena constitute useful techniques. What is abandoned is the *belief* in anatta or the mere proposition, because that conceptual presupposition is replaced by the direct knowledge of it in its full, pristine reality, unmediated by concept. -------------------------------------------------- > > The analogy of the teachings as a raft should not in my view be regarded > as saying the teachings as a whole are *merely a technique*, since that > leaves room for other views to be held about what lies beyond the point > where the (mere) technique is abandoned. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I absolutely do not say that the teachings are merely a technique. The teachings are a correct conceptual formulation of reality, and their contemplation is part of what is needed in one's practice. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34881 From: nori Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additiona... Hi Jack, J: > But, then after this I try to just sit, no agenda, > no trying to become, no trying to reach emancipation of suffering. Both sitting > with agenda and without seem important to me though I try to sit most of the > time without agenda. Here is an example. > A few days ago, I spent some of my meditation time deliberately noting the > beginning and end of each breath as well as the physical sensations of pressure > and coolness of the breath. Then when I just sat without agenda, without > effort, my awareness of these phenomena was much clearer. I might find myself doing > wihout effort what I was doing before with effort. Yes, I experience this also. It's a tricky balance and action. You exert yourself too much or in the wrong way and you become blind. Whatever it is that is supposed to be done to direct/concentrate the awareness - it should be done without disturbing your calm or any feeling of 'desire', only intention. This goes for just Buddhist practise in general, as a 'desire'/craving for emancipation from suffering is, after all still a desire, and is suffering. It should be done with only intent. I find myself, often, when experiencing suffering saying, "look at me, all this study and practice and still I suffer.", I suffer even more than people who never even heard a single word of Dhamma, since, on top of the original suffering derived from the original cause, I slap another heap of suffering on top due to my craving and frustration for emancipation from suffering. ... and how foolish is that. peace and metta, nori 34882 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta - sitting and meditating is not the point --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob, I appreciate your comments and contribution to this discussion. I > hope I have managed to get across that our difference is not so much on > the question of whether mindfulness of breathing is a high level of kusala > or not, nor on whether it was widely practised in the Buddha's time, nor > whether it may in certain circumstances be the basis for the development > of insight and indeed enlightenment (there is no dispute from me on any of > these points), but on the question of how relevant the Anapanasati Sutta > is to you and me as regards the development of insight at the present > moment, in our lives as we presently live them. Hi Jon. Just to put a wrinkle in the discussion, I thought I would present some evidence for the Abhidhamma view from none other than a prominent Ch'an/zen Master. I hope you will find this story refreshing. It is meant for Sukin also, as a confirmation of his view that an intention to "practice" in order to reach enlightenment creates a sense of a self that can liberate itself, and thus an obstacle to realization. Story below: Nanyue Osho visited Ma Tzu in his cell where he was meditating, and asked, "In practicing sitting meditation, what does your devotion aspire to attain?" "To attain buddhahood" Ma Tzu responded. Immediately Nanyue took up a piece of tile and proceeded to grind it against a stone at the door of Ma Tzu's cell. Ma Tzu asked, "What are you grinding the tile for?" Nanyue replied, "I want to grind the tile into a mirror." With a laugh, Ma Tzu said, "How do you hope to grind that tile into a mirror?" Nanyue responded, "Since a piece of tile cannot be ground into a mirror, how the can you sit your self into a buddha?" "What is to be done?" Ma Tzu asked. Nanyue replied, "Take the case of an ox-cart: if the cart does not move, do you whip the cart or do you whip the ox?" Ma Tzu remained silent. Nanyue resumed, "In learning sitting meditation do you aspire to imitate the sitting Buddha or do you aspire to learn the sitting Zen? If the former, the Buddha has no fixed postures. If you aspire to learn sitting Zen, Zen does not possess sitting or lying down. "The dharma flows on forever and never abides in anything. Thus, you should not be attached to, nor abandon, any step of it. To sit yourself into Buddha is to kill the Buddha. To be attached to the sitting posture is a failure to understand the essential principle." =============================== 34883 From: Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Herman and Andrew, Regarding no mention of self in dependent arising, in abhidhamma clinging (upadana) is explained as clinging to sensuality, views, rules and rituals, and personality belief. I don't think we can say personality belief is all pervasive and everywhere, eventhough it sometimes seems so, but when it does arise it arises here and also in the ignorance and the kamma formations links. Larry 34884 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:15am Subject: very disturbing sutta Dear all, When I read the following sutta I said "Oh no!" and was severely depressed for a few weeks: SN 56:102-104 Passing Away as Humans Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus: "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?" "Venerable sir, the great earth is more. The little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction." "So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell...the animal realm....the domain of ghosts. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. "Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'....An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' (posted with permission from "Connected Discourses of the Buddha", Wisdom Publications, http://www.wisdompubs.org ) The context of this sutta helps though. Previously Buddha said that it is just as extremely rare to abstain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, intoxicants, mutilating, murder, binding, robbery, plunder and violence. Ancient India must have been a dangerous place! So this life is the best chance we have. It is no good saying we will wait for future lives to be enlightened. Only the first stage of enlightenment can guarantee we will not be reborn in lower realms, and it is extremely difficult to return to the human realm once there. It is also extremely difficult to attain enlightenment. In another sutta the Buddha says it is more difficult than to split a hair with an arrow. So I feel like I am in serious trouble! The difficulty in attaining enlightenment does not remove the urgency. May we be enlightened in this very life! Metta / Antony. 34885 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:01pm Subject: Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Herman, KH: > > I feel sure "there is no self" would, even in early times, have been standard terminology. > > ============================ H: > If the Nidana Samyutta is anything to go by, then a complete cycle of Dependent Origination was standard terminology for those in the company of the Buddha. It doesn't get abbreviated. > ------------------------------ KH: That's one way of looking at it. But I would say, all of the Buddha's teaching addresses our one, perpetual, incredulous question, "Is there really no self?" At first, the Buddha wondered if it was a waste of time trying to teach anatta. You and I still haven't twigged to it. We have so much dust in our eyes it is almost impossible to see the truth. We need it explained time and time again and from every conceivable angle. ---------------------- H: > There is not even a tangential reference to self/not-self in any cycle of dependent origination. > -------------------- KH: The first link, ignorance, means ignorance of the Dhamma. The Dhamma is; "All conditioned dhammas are dukkha; all dhammas are anatta (not-self)." Hardly a tangent at all, really. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > > You wrote: > > The sutta you have quoted continues: "And if I -- being asked by > Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that > there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more > bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" > > Better-instructed (less-bewildered) disciples would not have had > that problem. 34886 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta Dear Antony, very seldon I replied or say anything, but I think that you and many people from DSG list are too critical of yourselves and disective when it comes to the teachings.Do not try to analyse so deeply everything and look life as everything is akusala, try to do the best with what you have and do good things.Last night I was walking at King Cross and saw a poor girld overdose, I called the ambulance , but inbetween I gave her CPR, which is against the monks rules because I have to put my lips in her mouth. This morning the girld is alive and well in hospital. Did I break a vinaya rule. Yes, the outcome was better, I saved a life. I feel good.Metta. Ajahn Jose Antony Woods wrote:Dear all, When I read the following sutta I said "Oh no!" and was severely depressed for a few weeks: SN 56:102-104 Passing Away as Humans Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus: "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?" "Venerable sir, the great earth is more. The little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction." "So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell...the animal realm....the domain of ghosts. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. "Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'....An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' (posted with permission from "Connected Discourses of the Buddha", Wisdom Publications, http://www.wisdompubs.org ) The context of this sutta helps though. Previously Buddha said that it is just as extremely rare to abstain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, intoxicants, mutilating, murder, binding, robbery, plunder and violence. Ancient India must have been a dangerous place! So this life is the best chance we have. It is no good saying we will wait for future lives to be enlightened. Only the first stage of enlightenment can guarantee we will not be reborn in lower realms, and it is extremely difficult to return to the human realm once there. It is also extremely difficult to attain enlightenment. In another sutta the Buddha says it is more difficult than to split a hair with an arrow. So I feel like I am in serious trouble! The difficulty in attaining enlightenment does not remove the urgency. May we be enlightened in this very life! Metta / Antony. 34887 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi James, If you prefer not to consider the Abhidhamma or Pali commentaries, I have no wish to convince you of anything. I look to these sources to read between the lines however as I have confidence in their reliability and treat them as the ‘Buddha’s Word’. Rather than questioning their reliability according to whether they support my blinkered view of experience, I question my blinkered views according to whether they are supported by these texts and the rest of the Tipitaka! ..... --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: So, the first three fetters are self-identity views, > uncertainty, grasping at precepts and practices. Here is what you > have you added that the Buddha didn't teach: Jealousy, stinginess, > ANY wrong views, doubts about nama and rupa (i.e. Abhidhamma), non- > adherence to following the precepts in thought as well as deed. > Sarah, where did you come up with these extra items? ..... S: As I’m recommending CMA to you, let me give a quote. If you’d prefer I back it up from the Abhidhamma texts themselves, I’m happy to do so or you’re welcome to check them for yourself ;-)...: ***** ch1X Compendium of Meditation Subjects, Analysis of Individuals#38, The Stream-Enterer: “Herein, having developed the path of stream-entry, by abandoning wrong views and doubt one becomes a stream-enterer, one who has escaped from rebirth in woeful states and will be reborn at most seven more times.” Guide to #38 “A stream-enterer is one who has entered the stream that leads irreversibly to Nibbaana, that is, the Noble Eightfold Path. A stream-enterer has cut off the coarsest three fetters - personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and rituals; he has unshakable confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha; and he is free from the prospect of rebirth in any of the woeful realms. Of the four taints (aasava), he has eliminated the taint of wrong views*, and of the fourteen unwholesome cetasikas he has eliminated wrong view and doubt**, and according to the Commentaries, also envy and avarice***. He has freed himself as well from all degrees of defilements strong enough to lead to rebirth in the woeful planes. His conduct is marked by scrupulous observance of the Five Precepts****: abstinence from taking life, stealing, sexual misconduct, false speech, and use of intoxicants.” ==== *I already quoted a sutta, SN41:3, as an example in the Sutta Pitaka too where it is clearly spelled out that all wrong views depend or are based on sakkaya ditthi (self-view): “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world is eternal’....-these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view,these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.” **Doubt about the teachings. CMA, ch 1X, Compendium of Insight (vipassanaasangaha), lists the 7 Visuddhis (Stages of Purification) which hav e to be attained in sequence, each one being the support for the one that follows. (Much more detail in Vism). Under ‘Purification by Overcoming Doubt’ “Purification by overcoming doubt is the discernment of the conditions of that same mind and matter (nama and rupa).” Guide “Purification by overcoming doubt is so called because it develops the knowledge which removes doubts about the conditions for mind-and-matter during the three periods of time - past,present, and future.” ***See commentary to Vatthupana Sutta, MN7 and other examples already quoted ****I gave an example of Uttaraa, Nanda’s mother from AN, Bk of 7s recently. She was a sotapanna when she married ‘as a child’. “I know of no trespass even in thought against my husband, how then in deed?” I believe this would to all the precepts. ====== > James: Now, wait a second. How could I possibly learn to appreciate > the Abhidhamma by reading a condensed version of it? .... S: Trust me a little here, won't you?....;-)* OK, if you’re asking which full Abhidhamma text to start on in translation, then I’d recommend the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) or the commentaries to the first two Abhidhamma texts. Metta, Sarah *If you (or any other long-term poster) gives us a snail-mail address off-list, we’ll be happy to purchase you a copy of CMA. ====== 34888 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta Dear Ven Sir & Antony, --- Ajahn Jose wrote: > Dear Antony, very seldon I replied or say anything, but I think that you > and many people from DSG list are too critical of yourselves and > disective when it comes to the teachings.Do not try to analyse so deeply > everything and look life as everything is akusala, try to do the best > with what you have and do good things. .... S: I’m very glad to hear from you and so hope your health is better now. I think your advice here is good. Antony, I hope you saw RobertK’s post to you on fear as well. Did it help? When I read suttas about the rarity of a human rebirth, I read them as a ‘celebration’ of the opportunities we have now to hear, consider, reflect and understand a little more about the Dhamma -- not as cause for unnecessary fear and worry and more akusala as Bhante says. To give a very simplistic analogy, if we are given a precious gift on our birthday, we value it and take joy, we don’t start dwelling on the chances of not being given such a gift tomorrow or next year. The point of these suttas, I believe is not to lead to unhealthy speculation about the future, but to remind us about the development of mindfulness and wisdom at the present moment. .... >Last night I was walking at King > Cross and saw a poor girld overdose, I called the ambulance , but > inbetween I gave her CPR, which is against the monks rules because I > have to put my lips in her mouth. This morning the girld is alive and > well in hospital. Did I break a vinaya rule. Yes, the outcome was > better, I saved a life. I feel good. .... S: I appreciate your kindness. You know the vinaya rules better than I do of course. I think that either way you will appreciate this post I wrote a long time ago, quoting from the Vinaya Pitaka: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9364 Here’s one quote from it: “Endowed with five qualities, monks, is one who tends the sick fit to tend the sick: he comes to be competent to provide the medicine; he knows what is beneficial and what is not beneficial; he takes away what is not beneficial, he brings forward what is beneficial; he tends the sick (from) amity of mind, not in the hope of gain , he does not become one who loathes to remove excrement or urine or sweat or vomit; he comes to be competent to gladden..delight the sick from time to time with dhamma-talk. Endowed with these five qualities, monks, is one who tends the sick fit to tend the sick.” Metta, Sarah ======= 34889 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] introduction Hi Joseph, Many thanks for introducing yourself on DSG and I hope you find the list helpful. --- Joseph Bridwell wrote: > My given name is Joseph, I'm 49 years old, and live in Seattle, WA, > USA. ... One or two other members are from Seattle too, including Mike whom I was glad to see on list the other day, contributing to the hot ATI thread. (Hope we hear more from you, Mike.....and Connie....also from near Seattle, hope you're around;-)). .... >I've been an interested but casual student of Mahayana Buddhism > since I was 15, yet I find that events over the past decade have > focused my attention on the tradition of Buddhism, and particularly > in Theravada for its directness. I'm here to learn, so I expect to > do a lot of lurking. .... Thx for letting us know. We appreciate it very much if lurkers occasionally surface with questions or comments -- it encourages the other posters for one thing. So let us know what is making sense and what isn't and if there are any aspects you'd like to raise. Like you, I find the 'directness' in Theravada is what I need to hear. Metta, Sarah ===== 34890 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consolation Hi Eric, Glad to see your active participation in most threads! Thks for your intro too: ..... > I have been involved with Theravada Buddhism for about 5 years. I am > pretty active at a Wat close to my home. ... S:.....which is where in the States? .... >I have been fortunate to > have had some good teachers/monks over the years. Many monks with > many rains, etc. A big influence was Buddhadasa. He was a teacher to > a few of the monks. Also a few Ven. American monks that were > instrumental in my understandings. I am a committed meditator and my > nose is always in the Nikayas. I know some Pali but I don't feel it > is 100% essential. Ven. Bodhi stayed at the Wat a few summers ago > for a few weeks and after meeting him, I am confident in his > translations. Plus I read so much other stuff from other traditions, > the gaps seem to get filled in enough for my purposes i.e. practice. ... S: Many thanks for the detail and it's good to hear of your enthusiasm for the Nikayas. We're all looking forward to B.Bodhi's translation of AN which has been slowed down by his health problems. .... > > RE: caring. I took a 13week hospice training course to become a > volunteer for a hospice care facility about 3 years. The training > was great, covering a wide range of topics: drugs, medicade, grief, > etc. I have been a volunteer ever since. .... S: This is a great daana. Anumodana. Thank you also for the link to the article. Since my mother retired from a social work job in her late 60s, she's also been working as a part-time volunteer in a nearby hospice where many of her own close friends have spent their last days. In her case, she says that most her time is spent in assisting visiting relatives, making endless cups of tea and other fairly menial tasks. Metta, Sarah ===== 34891 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi Phil, Hope you’re still there... --- Philip wrote: > > Ph: Yes, I am finding so many suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya that > deal with realities through the six doors, and khandas, and feeling, > and so on. .... S: Maybe you can make notes and let us know your favourites or any you’ve been reflecting on when you return. ... >"Less and less conflict between our dhamma interest and > study and worldly situations." Well, isn't the point that because of > our growing understanding there is less and less susceptiblity to > becoming upset by these situations and relationships? .... S: I think my point was more that as we understand dhammas as appearing at any moment, there is less thought about the ‘situatons’ or ‘relationships’ as being the realities in life and more appreciation of the value of all kinds of kusala at any moment. So, if, to give a very mundane example, we’re asked to spend the day doing humdrum chores around the house rather than spend the time in the text or on the cushion with coffee as we might like, there is less and less idea of any ‘conflict’ in the sense of this way of spending the day being less advantageous spiritually. Namas and rupas regardless and the burdens of rites and rituals are slowly lifted whether or not we become upset or even get into a fight from time to time;-). .... > I think that applies to 6 of the 8 in particular. Aren't we able > to becoming fairly independent from praise/blame, fame/disrepute and > even loss/gain fairly quickly through intellectual understanding of > the three characteristics and the aggregates? ... S: Better not to have any attachment to ‘quickly’. Intellectual understanding is one thing, direct understanding another. .... >Next week I'm going to > what amounts to a reunion of many relatives and friends, most of whom > I haven't seen in close to 10 years. I think in the past there would > be concern about measuring up to people, comparing myself in terms of > worldly success. Now I have this understanding of Dhamma and it is so > much more valuable than any worldly success, I deeply feel. I feel > confident that I am moving beyond such concerns. .... S: Yes, I agree and I think it is an indication of growing confidence when undestanding of Dhamma is seen as the only real ‘success’. Ken H or Andrew made a similar comment once before. I agreed with and appreciated all your other points. I’m cutting this short as I’ve just realized today is a week since you posted, so you may have left already. I’ll look forward to your return -- maybe as a ‘SUPERSTAR’;-);-). Metta, Sarah p.s I was going to check out the qu you raised about roots in your letter to B.Samahita.....let me know if you’re still reading posts and I will. Also ‘Sturdy’ in Therigata 1.1 refers to her strudy build of body - she became known as ‘Sturdykin’, a lay woman. She listened to the Buddha and became a sotapanna, I understand. After hearing the bhikkhuni Pajaapatii the Gotamid, she asked her husband if she could take robes, but he didn’t consent and so she continued with her duties. Whilst cooking a curry, the food burnt and she became an anagami with insight into impermanence. Her husband then took her to Pajaapatii to ordain and after becoming an arahant, she uttered the verse you and Christine quoted: “Sleep softly, little Sturdy, take thy rest At ease, wrapt in the robe thyself hast made. Stilled are the passions that would rage within, Withered as potherbs in the oven dried.” Metta, Sarah ====== - 34892 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hi Eric (and Nori), ------------------------- E: > Nice post! I was beginning to think this list was comprised of nothing but book buddhists! jk all you folks with ink on your fingers and no callouses on your butts! ;-) -------------------------- Thanks for that image, Eric. :-) Does it embarrass you that your preferred interpretation of the Buddhadhamma focuses on the posterior? :-) At DSG, we are studying the Buddhadhamma as preserved in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. This is a teaching that is unexcelled - profound beyond description. To understand it, you have to put aside all conventional notions of religious practice. That is why some of us seem strange to you: we have found something totally beyond yoga, formal meditation and the ritual observance of rules and precepts. We might seem strange by conventional standards, but it is not us who have diverged from the original teaching. If you can find anything in the Theravada literature that prescribes or describes commonplace activities (activities known to other philosophies) as being instrumental in the way to enlightenment, please say so, we will be only too happy to set you straight. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34893 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:06am Subject: Re: Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI KenH: "I would say, all of the Buddha's teaching addresses our one, perpetual, incredulous question, "Is there really no self?" Onya KenH! Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 34894 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > =============================== > > I agree with you. Giving up self *CAN* be done. One *CAN* become a hero, > it *CAN* be a doorway. The question is, *DOES* it happen? Is the > Tipitaka merely a book about what *CAN* happen? > > ================ Dear Herman, Thanks! It takes much saddha (faith)to let go of the idea of self. But to develop saddha to a high degree it must be in tandem with understanding - the understanding gleaned from hearing and studying and considering. And then understanding and saddha can arise together and see that each moment is exactly as the scriptures say. Then fear is not a problem, it is only an element, a moment. It really does happen. Robertk 34895 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Ken, I am truly glad that you know exactly how to interpret the Teachings, and that you are without any doubt about this interpretation. I am less than happy about the fact that, with your exact understanding of what the Teachings are saying, that you still profess that you don't get it (my interpretation of twig). If you really don't get it, and understand that you don't get it, despite your firm if not rigid understanding of the texts, why be bothered with views in other camps that are at odds with yours. If my views or practice lead me around in circles, I accept that it is time to take stock. But then, that is me :-) Kind regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: kenhowardau [mailto:kenhowardau@y...] Sent: Tuesday, 27 July 2004 3:02 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Herman, KH: > > I feel sure "there is no self" would, even in early times, have been standard terminology. > > ============================ H: > If the Nidana Samyutta is anything to go by, then a complete cycle of Dependent Origination was standard terminology for those in the company of the Buddha. It doesn't get abbreviated. > ------------------------------ KH: That's one way of looking at it. But I would say, all of the Buddha's teaching addresses our one, perpetual, incredulous question, "Is there really no self?" At first, the Buddha wondered if it was a waste of time trying to teach anatta. You and I still haven't twigged to it. We have so much dust in our eyes it is almost impossible to see the truth. We need it explained time and time again and from every conceivable angle. ---------------------- H: > There is not even a tangential reference to self/not-self in any cycle of dependent origination. > -------------------- KH: The first link, ignorance, means ignorance of the Dhamma. The Dhamma is; "All conditioned dhammas are dukkha; all dhammas are anatta (not-self)." Hardly a tangent at all, really. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > > You wrote: > > The sutta you have quoted continues: "And if I -- being asked by > Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that > there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more > bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" > > Better-instructed (less-bewildered) disciples would not have had > that problem. 34896 From: jjnbdal Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta Dear Anthony and Ajahn Jose: Thanks for the good reminder. We have tendency to be afraid of akusala and attracted by kusala because we know that the former will result in bad vipaka and the latter good vipaka. So natural that we don't want 'ourselves' to suffer. All dhamma are to be understood: kusala, akusala and what not. I remember Ajahn Sujin said more than once that we must be brave to face our kusala to understand it. I think the message in this sutta is that we can't let ourselves follow kilesa freely. As Anthony nicely put, this life is the chance for accummulating good kamma--more importantly, understanding--while we can. I'm always reminded by Christine's sign-off 'the trouble is you think you have time' (or something like that :-)) Best Regards, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose wrote: > Dear Antony, very seldon I replied or say anything, but I think that you and many people from DSG list are too critical of yourselves and disective when it comes to the teachings.Do not try to analyse so deeply everything and look life as everything is akusala, try to do the best with what you have and do good things.Last night I was walking at King Cross and saw a poor girld overdose, I called the ambulance , but inbetween I gave her CPR, which is against the monks rules because I have to put my lips in her mouth. This morning the girld is alive and well in hospital. Did I break a vinaya rule. Yes, the outcome was better, I saved a life. I feel good.Metta. Ajahn Jose > 34897 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:40am Subject: The invisible Initiator ! Friends: All States is Preceeded by Mind & Initiated by the Mind: Whatsoever there are of advantageous states, Bhikkhus, connected with what is right, related with the good, all these are initiated by the mind. First the preceding good & clever mental state arises, then the advantageous phenomena follows after ... Whatsoever there are of detrimental states, Bhikkhus, connected with the wrong, related with the evil, all these are initiated by the mind. First the preceding bad mental state arises, then the disadvantageous phenomena follows after ... Full text: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.10-11.htm All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34898 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Howard Thanks for these comments and the passages from the Anapanasati Sutta, which you quote in support of your comment that 'the main thrust [of the sutta] is the use of mindfulness of breath as a vehicle for complete enlightenment and liberation.' Actually, this is not a major point of disagreement between us. I, too, see the main thrust of the sutta as being the attainment of enlightenment by those developing mindfulness of breathing, but the question is the particular circumstances to which this teaching is addressed, and on this issue there are 2 main views, namely-- (a) that the sutta is a 'how to' for the development of anapanasati for all including the beginner (this is the view commonly held nowadays), and (b) that the sutta is about the development of vipassana for those already highly adept at anapanasati (this is the view I support). Personally I see a number of references in the sutta that point to the meaning at (b), and none that are inconsistent with that meaning. Perhaps there are passages that you see as being more consistent with the meaning at (a)? One implication of the meaning at (b) seems to be this: if the sutta is to be read as setting out a roadmap for both the basic practice of anapanasati and the practice of anapanasati as leading to enlightenment (i.e., from go to whoa ;-)), then it would be covering ground covered by no other sutta except perhaps the Satipatthana Sutta. Yet I do not see in the Anapanasati Sutta any declaration/assurance by the Buddha of the kind found in the Satipatthana Sutta. The Anapanasati Sutta is much more narrowly addressed than the Satipatthana Sutta. What do you think? Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ========================= > If I may butt in Jon, I certainly have an issue. There is no > doubt > that samatha bhavana is involved in anapanasati, but the main thrust is > the use > of mindfulness of breath as a vehicle for complete enlightenment and > liberation. In the Anapanasati Sutta you will find proof of what I say. > The first > section is introductory, the second section synopsizes the technique, > and all the > subsequent sections deal with the four foundations of mindfulness and > liberation > (along with cultivation of calm). I quote these portions starting with > the > third at the end of this post. I have put the heading of each of these > portions > in bold (and larger) type, although Yahoo may remove the bold. > > With metta, > Howard 34899 From: Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/27/04 6:08:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > KenH: "I would say, all of the > Buddha's teaching addresses our one, perpetual, incredulous > question, "Is there really no self?" > > Onya KenH! Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! > > metta and peace, > Christine > ========================= Sure. But ... you know? ... I think we ought to stop with some of that questioning and just look and see! There just is no self anywhere to be seen at all! When we feel a sense of self, and we look at that, all there is is that passing "feeling". When there are what we might call I-oriented thoughts, incuding self-oriented emotions, and we look at them, all there are are those thoughts and emotions. Thoughts and feelings of conceit, jealousy, resentment, craving, annoyance - the whole miserable panoply of afflictive emotions and reactions - is just a bundle of impersonal misery making its rounds. Nowhere in this is there anything that lasts, that has a "life" of its own, that is "me" or "mine" or that is in any way personal, no more so than any elements of the river of sights, sounds, tastes, odors, or bodily sensations and touches that are the raw materials of our mind-created world. Only with "self" (in the matter of so called "person" and in so called "things") are we so perverse as to devoutly believe in something that is never, ever, found! Is it not amazing that we are incredulous as to the NON-existence of an alleged something that is never, ever, observed!! Best, I think if we repeat less often the principle "There is no self" as Buddhist catechism, and busy ourselves more with looking - carefully, intently, and with clarity - at what there actually is to be seen. Then we will come to know, wordlessly and without doubt, what is what. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34900 From: Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/27/04 7:56:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > Thanks for these comments and the passages from the Anapanasati Sutta, > which you quote in support of your comment that 'the main thrust [of the > sutta] is the use of mindfulness of breath as a vehicle for complete > enlightenment and liberation.' > > Actually, this is not a major point of disagreement between us. I, too, > see the main thrust of the sutta as being the attainment of enlightenment > by those developing mindfulness of breathing, but the question is the > particular circumstances to which this teaching is addressed, and on this > issue there are 2 main views, namely-- > (a) that the sutta is a 'how to' for the development of anapanasati for > all including the beginner (this is the view commonly held nowadays), and > (b) that the sutta is about the development of vipassana for those already > highly adept at anapanasati (this is the view I support). > > Personally I see a number of references in the sutta that point to the > meaning at (b), and none that are inconsistent with that meaning. Perhaps > there are passages that you see as being more consistent with the meaning > at (a)? > > One implication of the meaning at (b) seems to be this: if the sutta is to > be read as setting out a roadmap for both the basic practice of > anapanasati and the practice of anapanasati as leading to enlightenment > (i.e., from go to whoa ;-)), then it would be covering ground covered by > no other sutta except perhaps the Satipatthana Sutta. Yet I do not see in > the Anapanasati Sutta any declaration/assurance by the Buddha of the kind > found in the Satipatthana Sutta. The Anapanasati Sutta is much more > narrowly addressed than the Satipatthana Sutta. > > What do you think? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I really think that the Anapanasati Sutta presents itself as an implementation - one of many, possibly - of the Satipatthana Sutta, in fact as a means of bringing to culmination the four foundations of mindfulness, and that it subsumes samatha bhavana as well. I see the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta as being almost companion pieces. As far as whether either if these addresses practices appropriate for the rank beginner, I'm not certain, but I believe that both do. A beginner simply will not get as far in reaping benefits as quickly and as significant as one who is "further along," but I still believe s/he can reap benefits. The thing is: Unless one has developed past-life recall, one doesn't know for sure whether one is a rank beginner, a midling practitioner, or more. As with all of the Dhamma, "Come and see" is a worthwhile approach, I believe. I find that I, myself, benefit from cultivating mindfulness, calm, and concentration with the breath as primary subject, and from formal and informal "meditative" practice in general, and I suspect that many people would. --------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34901 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:08am Subject: Baby and Bathwater Hi Ken H and All, Recently, I reread Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Two Faces of the Dhamma" http://www.buddhistinformation.com/two_faces_of_the_dhamma.htm I was struck by how BB was able to reconcile the religious aspect of Buddhism with the intellectual aspect of Buddhism. I started thinking about how the "pro-meditation" and the "anti- meditation" camps could be reconciled. I then read Rob Epstein's message 34882 regarding Nanyue Osho and Ma Tzu. I found it interesting that Nanyue Osho did not tell Ma Tzu that he was wrong to meditate. Nanyue Osho told Ma Tzu that he had the wrong concept of meditation. A wise old Thai monk once told me to view meditation as my duty, not to expect any results. I think that he was trying to deliver the same message to me. I suspect that many mediators have the wrong concept of meditation (some more wrong than others). I suspect that many meditators have a strong attachment to a concept of a self who can control the meditation experience and this is wrong view. However, does this mean that meditation should be avoided? I think not. Let us take the example of giving (dana). Given the pervasiveness of self view among uninstructed worldlings, it is almost certain than most acts of dana involve a lot of self view ("I am giving" / "I will get good results" / "I will be seen as generous" / etc.). Does this mean that acts of dana should be discouraged? I think not. I recognize that there was some self view and some conceit when I volunteered to teach Abhidhamma ("I can do a good job") and that there is some fear each week that drives me to prepare my classes ("I don't want to look like an unprepared fool"). Given that much of the motivation is driven by unwholesome thoughts, should I give up teaching? I think not. My opinion is that formal meditation without self-view is orders of magnitude better than formal meditation that often (but not always) includes self-view. I also believe that formal meditation that often (but not always) includes self-view is better than no formal meditation. In other words, I am afraid that by rejecting formal meditation you are "throwing out the baby with the bathwater". I believe that you have written in the past that the Buddha did not support formal meditation. This confuses me. There are dozens of Suttas which mention jhanas but not one that mentions Einstein's theory of relativity or Darwin's Theory of Evolution. This is because (as mentioned in more than one Sutta) the scope of the teaching is limited to things leading to the holy life and to leading to Nibbana. Clearly, jhanas are related to the holy life (at least for some) while Einstein's theory of relativity and Darwin's Theory of Evolution have nothing to do with the holy life or Nibbana (nevertheless, I have two books in my library titled, "Buddhist Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity" and "Origin of Species According to The Buddha"). I regret that I am rushing out on vacation, so I will not have time for a lengthy exchange on this subject. Perhaps we could do Round 1 and Round 2 now and save the remainder for when I return end August. I really am interested in your point of view on this. for your valuable input. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Thanks to all for your valuable input on Faith. I will summarize it and will use it next week during my class. 34902 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta and spinach Hey Jon, > But Eric, it's no good changing your diet thinking its going to work miracles unless that's what the doctor was really saying. > So did he say it has to be spinach for everyone, of did he put it high on the list of good sources of certain useful supplements? Of course Jon. I am not saying it is for everyone. But you are saying it is for a select few i.e. only the Popeyes! I am taking a more middle way approach on this. Why? Because my intellectual understanding of the Sutta and my experience tell me too. PEACE E 34903 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hey Andrew, > A : In that case, why don't we believe in reincarnation instead of > rebirth? > > E: You are mixing relative and ultimate. TB is offering a > practical strategy in the relative, where if you admit it > to yourself, that is where you spend all of your time > as 'Andrew' with his relative self centered concerns. > Am I right or wrong? Don't worry about it, we all do this! Andrew: It seems to me from the direct quotations of TB posted by Ken H, you are putting words into TB's mouth here. His views (even if he doesn't like that term) appear to go beyond the relative. Perhaps somebody so inclined could post a direct quotation that demonstrates what you, Eric, say is the case? E: All views are relative. You can not have a Ultimate view of the Ultimate. Sorry Andrew, I do not make the rules. Like you I am just trying to live by them. > A> Think about it. If there *is* something that is self across time,the whole Dhamma starts to dismantle. > > E: self is time. The Dhamma is not conditioned by time. Andrew: You've lost me here. Perhaps I could re-phrase my sentence thus "If there *is* something that is a permanent self, the whole Dhamma starts to dismantle". Agree? E: Let the chips fall where they fall. Can you take it? Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to them. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I want the truth! Jessep: You can't handle the truth! > A: Religious scholars tell us that anatta is the > defining and unique characteristic of the Buddhadhamma. > > E: Is the Dhamma about scholarship or the Truth? Do you > identify with this 'uniqueness' and so think you are > special in some way? Andrew: I probably do think I am special. That's mana (conceit) and I don't deny its presence. Scholarship or Truth? Now *that's* an "either/or" that should be a "both" IMHO. Do you believe that accurate and fair-minded scholarship (arising with saddha) is the opposite to Truth - in all cases, I assume? E: They are baby steps. > A: And yet, it seems, some followers are teaching > that it isn't true, just a little mind exercise? > > E: Find out for yourself Andrew and forget about what > anyone else says or wrote. Andrew: Even the Buddha? Even arahants? E: Everyone dies Andrew. > A: Eric, your faith (saddha) is obviously not shaken > by such issues at this stage. > > E: That is because I am not deceived by words Andrew. > > A: May you go on to flourish in the Dhamma. > > E: May you find the Truth outside of words Andrew! Andrew: BTW, Eric, I've looked it up in a book. Callouses on the butt are not-self. (joke) Keep smiling, my friend. You must find talking to the likes of me rather trying - so a little joke can go a long way. All the best for your practice. :-) And to yours too Andrew! PEACE E 34904 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additiona... Nori >I find myself, often, when experiencing suffering saying, "look at me, all this study and practice and still I suffer.", I suffer even more than people who never even heard a single word of Dhamma, since, on top of the original suffering derived from the original cause, I slap another heap of suffering on top due to my craving and frustration for emancipation from suffering. Someone waking up to the Second Noble Truth? :-) PEACE E 34905 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hey Ken, ------------------------- E: > Nice post! I was beginning to think this list was comprised of nothing but book buddhists! jk all you folks with ink on your fingers and no callouses on your butts! ;-) -------------------------- K: Thanks for that image, Eric. :-) Does it embarrass you that your preferred interpretation of the Buddhadhamma focuses on the posterior? :-) E: You gotta start somewhere. May as well start from the bottom. :-) K: At DSG, we are studying the Buddhadhamma as preserved in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. This is a teaching that is unexcelled - profound beyond description. To understand it, youhave to put aside all conventional notions of religious practice. E: Yeah my favorite Buddha Image is the one where the Buddha is seated under the Bodhi tree with this stack of books next him and a pair of reading glasses on his nose. There is a quote on the bottom, "Upturn that lamp so I can read". Quite inspiring actually!! K: That is why some of us seem strange to you: we have found something totally beyond yoga, formal meditation and the ritual observance ofrules and precepts. E: Yeah, you have discovered one of the aggregates, thought. Look I read too. But it seems you are turning the Dhamma into the dhamma. You are becoming a fundamentalist. The 'Truth' is in the 'Word' of 'The Book' from 'The Awakened One', etc. K: We might seem strange by conventional standards, but it is not us who have diverged from the original teaching. E: The battle cry of the fundamentalist. The original teacher said shut up, sit down and find out for yourself. Not shut up, sit down and read a bunch of books and philosophize. The original teacher did not write one book!! Look at what you are doing for god sakes! K: If you can find anything in the Theravada literature that prescribes or describes commonplace activities (activities known to other philosophies) as being instrumental in the way to enlightenment, please say so, we will be only too happy to set you straight.:-) E: News flash: The Buddha was not a Theravadan! PEACE E 34906 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Consolation Hey Sarah, > Glad to see your active participation in most threads! Thks for your> intro too: E intro> > I have been involved with Theravada Buddhism for about 5 years. I am pretty active at a Wat close to my home. > S:.....which is where in the States? E: Chicago. > S: Many thanks for the detail and it's good to hear of your enthusiasm for the Nikayas. We're all looking forward to B.Bodhi's translation of AN which has been slowed down by his health problems. E: Yep I think he started it when he was at our Wat. Tis a shame about his health. Some of the Doctor's at the Wat tried to help him when he was here. But seems no one can find the cause. I tend to think it is because he has so much information in his head that it is about to burst! A warning to all you information gatherers! :-) > > RE: caring. I took a 13week hospice training course to become a > > volunteer for a hospice care facility about 3 years. The training was great, covering a wide range of topics: drugs, medicade, grief, etc. I have been a volunteer ever since. > S: This is a great daana. Anumodana. E: Thanks Sarah! S: Thank you also for the link to the article. E: My pleasure! S: Since my mother retired from a social work job in her late 60s, she's also been working as a part-time volunteer in a nearby hospice where many of her own close friends have spent their last days. In her case, she says that most her time is spent in assisting visiting relatives, making endless cups of tea and other fairly menial tasks. E: That is great that she can help out her friends. I am sure it means a lot to her and them! Thanks for the warm welcome Sarah! PEACE E 34907 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Developing Faith Dear Herman, Kindred Sayings IV, the first suttas: what is impermanent that is dukkha. §4: The fact that as you say, is different from knowing the truth of impermanence, the arising and falling away of visible object now, sound now, etc. This can be realized through insight. Quite different from just thinking that things have to change. Now, the impermanence, the arising and falling away of dhammas and their nature of dukkha are different characteristics, but they are closely connected. Dukkha can be rendered by the words: not worth clinging to, no refuge, unsatisfactory. It is dukkha, not sukha, happiness. We can use many words, but through insight this characteristic can be realized without using words. The development of the eightfold Path is the development of direct understanding of whatever appears now, and this leads to the end of dukkha. There is no other way. It needs patience and that is the highest ascetism. Nina. op 27-07-2004 00:25 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I wonder whether impermanence itself is dukkha, or whether it is the > looking for "our refuge" that is dukkha. Impermanence in itself is not a > problem, in fact knowing that all things must and will change can be a > great source of comfort and faith when in a deep pit. 34908 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala citta with right view. Dear Andrew, In our study of Vis. XIV, 85, it was stated as an example: (3) But when young children have a natural habit due to seeing the behavior of relatives and are joyful on seeing bhikkhus and at once give them whatever they have in their hands or pay homage, then the third kind of consciousness arises. (4) But when they behave like this on being urged by their relatives, 'Give; pay homage', then the fourth kind of consciousness arises. The example of young children was given to illustrate kusala citta without understanding. Kusala is very pure, at that moment one does not think of oneself. Kusala is always kusala, it has its own unalterable characteristic, it is a paramattha dhamma. At the moment of kusala citta there cannot be lobha, dosa or moha, ignorance, arising with the citta. There are latent tendencies, but these do not arise with the citta. Also kusala citta outside Buddhism is kusala, it is not just Buddhist. Sometimes kusala citta arises with understanding of kamma and vipaka or understanding of kusala as non-self, without having to think about kamma and vipaka or non-self. At other times one performs kusala just because it is one's accumulation to do so, and there may not be understanding at that moment. It is difficult to pinpoint such different moments, insight has to be developed in order to know. When there is direct understanding of nama and rupa in between the moments of giving or sila, kusala citta can be accompanied by right understanding of realities, but there is nobody who can arrange for right understanding to accompany kusala citta. When one develops samatha or vipassana the kusala citta has to be accompanied by right understanding, otherwise there is no mental development. Thus, when kusala citta arises without understanding, it does not mean that there is ignorance. Kusala is never rooted in an unwholesome root such as moha. All this may be more understandable when we consider that kusala citta is only a moment, and that the next moment may be akusala citta with wrong view. Akusala citta is always rooted in ignorance, moha. Nina. op 27-07-2004 00:27 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: I am a little unsure about > beautiful citta dissociated from knowledge and how it relates to > avijja and moha. 34909 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta Veberable Bhante Ajahn Jose, I am glad to see you here and I hope your health is good. We thought of you many times. With best wishes, Nina. op 27-07-2004 07:06 schreef Ajahn Jose op ajahnjose@y...: > Dear Antony, very seldon I replied or say anything, but I think that you and > many people from DSG list are too critical of yourselves 34910 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta Dear Jaran. So happy to see you! Thanks for your reminder. You said: , I remember Ajahn Sujin said more than once that > we must be brave to face our kusala to understand it.> But I think we have to understand kusala as well as akusala as just dhamma. BTW I hope you asked Kh Suwat to think of you in case someone cancels India. Nina. op 27-07-2004 11:52 schreef jjnbdal op jjnbdal@y...: > Dear Anthony and Ajahn Jose: > > Thanks for the good reminder. We have tendency to be afraid of akusala > and attracted by kusala because we know that the former will result in > bad vipaka and the latter good vipaka. 34911 From: jjnbdal Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta Dear Nina: Happy to see you too. About kusala, I agree with you. Also, we tend to it more easily than akusala, and we are not shy to 'notice' it. Here we must be honest to ourselves whether we are understanding it better or simply are attached to our kusala. Last time I check with A. Suwat, he will let me know when there is cancellation, but it is almost impossible. How are you and Lodewijk? I have been following internet boardcast of dhamma discussion from the foundation every weekend (Sat 9-11, Sun 9-11 and 14.15-16 Bangkok Time). It is very nice to be able to listen to it life and send in questions. Please send my regards to Lodewijk. jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jaran. > So happy to see you! Thanks for your reminder. > You said: , I remember Ajahn Sujin said more than once that > > we must be brave to face our kusala to understand it.> But I think we have to > understand kusala as well as akusala as just dhamma. > BTW I hope you asked Kh Suwat to think of you in case someone cancels India. > Nina. > > op 27-07-2004 11:52 schreef jjnbdal op jjnbdal@y...: > > > Dear Anthony and Ajahn Jose: > > > > Thanks for the good reminder. We have tendency to be afraid of akusala > > and attracted by kusala because we know that the former will result in > > bad vipaka and the latter good vipaka. 34912 From: antony272b2 Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta Dear Sarah, Rob K and all, This post actually got delayed for three days and I included it at the end of my Eternalism at ati: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34807 Rob K, I am feeling better now thanks. Sarah, the birthday present analogy really helps. Also when I am depressed about feeling doomed to be reborn in the lower realms I can say "This is suffering" which helps. thanks for your replies / Antony. > think your advice here is good. Antony, I hope you saw RobertK's post to > you on fear as well. Did it help? When I read suttas about the rarity of a > human rebirth, I read them as a `celebration' of the opportunities we have > now to hear, consider, reflect and understand a little more about the > Dhamma -- not as cause for unnecessary fear and worry and more akusala as > Bhante says. To give a very simplistic analogy, if we are given a precious > gift on our birthday, we value it and take joy, we don't start dwelling on > the chances of not being given such a gift tomorrow or next year. The > point of these suttas, I believe is not to lead to unhealthy speculation > about the future, but to remind us about the development of mindfulness > and wisdom at the present moment. > .... 34913 From: Demian Meyer Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta "Any living being who hears the name of Medicine Buddha never gets reborn in the lower realms-that's the benefit, the power of just hearing the name, the mantra. Buddha asked his attendant Ananda: "Do you believe this?" and Ananda replied, "Yes I believe what the Buddha says." Then Buddha said "Why?" Ananda replied, "Because Buddha has inconceivable qualities, therefore I have no doubt." Then Buddha said, "Even animals who hear Medicine Buddha's name from that time on will never be reborn in the lower realms." This is such an easy way to save living beings from heavy suffering. There's no question about animals having faith in Medicine Buddha's power-so how can there be any doubt that human beings who hear Medicine Buddha's mantra will never again be reborn in the lower realms, whether they have faith or not? Just hearing the name is enough, so when people are dying one of the best things to do is to recite the name loudly in the ear, then you save the person from the suffering of the lower realms for many aeons. The reason there is so much power is due to Medicine Buddha's compassion. In the past when he was a bodhisattva he made so many prayers and dedications with strong compassion for his name to be wish fulfilling, to bring happiness." From: http://www.medicinebuddha.org/medicine_buddha.htm -Demian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Woods" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:15 AM Subject: [dsg] very disturbing sutta > Dear all, > > When I read the following sutta I said "Oh no!" and was > severely depressed for a few weeks: > > SN 56:102-104 Passing Away as Humans > > Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his > fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus: > > "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little > bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?" > > "Venerable sir, the great earth is more. The little bit > of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his > fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, > does not amount even to a fraction." > > "So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they > pass away as human beings, are reborn among human > beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when > they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell...the > animal realm....the domain of ghosts. For what reason? > Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble > Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the > noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth > of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the > way leading to the cessation of suffering. > > "Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to > understand: 'This is suffering.'....An exertion should > be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the > cessation of suffering.' > (posted with permission from "Connected Discourses of the Buddha", > Wisdom Publications, http://www.wisdompubs.org ) > > The context of this sutta helps though. Previously Buddha > said that it is just as extremely rare to abstain from > killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, intoxicants, > mutilating, murder, binding, robbery, plunder and violence. > Ancient India must have been a dangerous place! > > So this life is the best chance we have. It is no good > saying we will wait for future lives to be enlightened. > Only the first stage of enlightenment can guarantee we will > not be reborn in lower realms, and it is > extremely difficult to return to the human realm once > there. > > It is also extremely difficult to attain enlightenment. In > another sutta the Buddha says it is more difficult than to > split a hair with an arrow. So I feel like I am in serious > trouble! The difficulty in attaining enlightenment does not > remove the urgency. > > May we be enlightened in this very life! > > Metta / Antony. > 34914 From: Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:06pm Subject: Vism.XIV 91 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 91. (22) When a man is happy and content in placing wrong view foremost of the sort beginning 'There is no danger in sense desires' (M.i,307), and either enjoys sense desires with consciousness that in its own individual essence is eager without being urged, or believes auspicious sights, etc., have a [real substantial] core, then the first kind of unprofitable consciousness arises; (23) when it is with consciousness that is sluggish and urged on, then it is the second kind. (24) But when a man is happy and content only, without placing wrong view foremost, and indulges in sexual intercourse, or covets others' good fortune, or steals others' goods, with consciousness that in its own individual essence is eager without being urged on, then it is the third kind. (25) When it is with consciousness that is sluggish and urged on, then it is the fourth kind. (26)-(29) But when the consciousnesses are devoid of joy in these four instances through encountering no excellence in the sense desires, or through want of any such cause for joy, then the remaining four, which are accompanied by equanimity, arise. So that in greed should be understood as of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, [false] view and prompting. 34915 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Herman, You wrote: ------------ > I am truly glad that you know exactly how to interpret the Teachings, and that you are without any doubt about this interpretation. > ------------ In my opinion, an exact interpretation would be; `The Teachings are satipatthana (direct understanding of an existing paramattha dhamma).' Do you agree with that interpretation? --------------------- H: > I am less than happy about the fact that, with your exact understanding of what the Teachings are saying, that you still profess that you don't get it > --------------------- The point I was making was that you and I have not eradicated belief in self. Far from being noble disciples, we are uninstructed worldlings. Is that so bad? If there are only dhammas (no travellers on the Path and no travellers of samsara) then there is no cause for concern. Only when there is ignorance of dhammas is there (a perceived) cause for concern. -------------- H: > (my interpretation of twig). -------------- Spot on! ---------------- H: > If you really don't get it, and understand that you don't get it, despite your firm if not rigid understanding of the texts, why be bothered with views in other camps that are at odds with yours. ---------------- Let me put that another way: `If I really am not a sotapanna, and I understand that I am not a sotapanna, despite my intellectual understanding of paramattha dhammas, then why should I bother with views that disclaim the reality of dhammas?' Because those ignorant views are causes for concern. They should be sign-posted, "Not the Buddha's Teaching!" ----------------- H: > If my views or practice lead me around in circles, I accept that it is time to take stock. But then, that is me :-) ----------------- That is me, too, and it is always time to take stock. Why are we not sotapanna? Because we have not eradicated belief in self. Is that cause for concern? No, because there are only dhammas. "Mere ignorance exists, no ignoramus is found." :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34916 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Dear Sarah, Sounds like you had a great holiday in Switzerland. My home computor has been repaired, it is slower than ever - its very old - but at least its working. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, > > If you prefer not to consider the Abhidhamma or Pali commentaries, I have > no wish to convince you of anything. I look to these sources to read > between the lines however as I have confidence in their reliability and > treat them as the `Buddha's Word'. > > > James: Now, wait a second. How could I possibly learn to appreciate > > the Abhidhamma by reading a condensed version of it? > .... > S: Trust me a little here, won't you?....;-)* > ......snip........ > OK, if you're asking which full Abhidhamma text to start on in > translation, then I'd recommend the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) or > the commentaries to the first two Abhidhamma texts. > > Metta, > > Sarah > *If you (or any other long-term poster) gives us a snail-mail address > off-list, we'll be happy to purchase you a copy of CMA. > ====== I'm interested in what you are advising James here, where would I obtain a copy of Kathavattha, and what is CMA.????? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34917 From: danielsalinero43 Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Introductions...from California Hello everyone, My name is Daniel and I'm very glad to have "stumbled" upon your group. I look forward to learning from your insights on the Dhamma and hope to make a small contribution from time to time. I became a practitioner soon after I moved to Thailand in 1995. I taught there at 2 international schools before returning to the US in December,2000. I'm now teaching first grade in a local elementary school in Indio, California. I posted two pictures of myself in the photos section so that a face might go with my words. Yours i the Dhamma, Daniel S. 34918 From: connieparker Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:50pm Subject: Re: Introduction Sarah: ...Hope we hear more from you, Mike.....and Connie....also from near Seattle, hope you're around;-)). ..... Still here, Sarah. Not inky or calloused, but some of the letters are worn off my keyboard. Did finally break the skin on the blisters on my feet. Second year I think I've vowed not to walk barefoot on the blacktop around town when it's been 100F all day. Caught up on all my mail from a visit to the coast and then went off to a long weekend at my uncle's, some sort of minister. Picked up a stranger on the way home who stayed until Dinah showed up Friday. Dinah's folks were some kind of church and it's her ministry now. Interesting interpretations of things there. She was telling me ghost stories and seems to like the idea that that's what/where Woody, her partner, is now. I think there's a drawback in just dying "happy", hoping he doesn't last there long and gets a human rebirth soon. Maybe there are 'ghosts' who aren't hungry all the time. So, just been catching up on my reading again the last couple days. Somedays, pretty much all I am is caught up in my reading. Next: start Narada's Elementary Pali again since Yong Peng's been nice enough to start that on the Pali list. Been looking at biblical stuff the past couple days and still think my understanding of Mahayana isn't a whole lot different from some of that. The so-called 'native/Indian church' here is a blend of Catholicism and 'pagan rites'... if one can tell them apart. Last time I went over to talk at the comparative religions class, one of the Natives assured me that her church has a lot in common with Buddhism. The Tibetan monks come down to the meditation group encouraging strange (I think) practices. They teach a kind of a 'fake it until you make it' thing it seems and John has been known to groan when I start to ask a question/comment. Last time he did it, I was just trying to say I agreed with him. Gave a guy a Hawaiian translation of the Christian bible a couple weeks ago. I don't know why I ever kept it except that I sometimes lie to myself about 'maybe someday' learning to read things (like Pali?). He reminded me that God's name is supposed to have been dropping out of the newer translations. Shrug. Someone had said something about the Christian missionaries in Thailand changing bible teachings around to include "Buddha said"s. Both could be good trends, I suppose, but quicker just to put the bibles down and check out the Tipitaka. Laughed at my mental revisions of the Hebrew bible while thinking of the the qualities of a certain god. My apologies for every time I've ever made up my mind when I'm accountable for the fabled(?) western pureland, too. Life's too funny sometimes. A girl named me Angel Eyes this morning. peace, connie 34919 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] very disturbing sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > > Rob K, I am feeling better now thanks. > Sarah, the birthday present analogy really helps. > > Also when I am depressed about feeling doomed to be reborn in the > lower realms I can say "This is suffering" which helps. > > ____ Dear Antony, Yep, I guess we all have fear at times when thinking about future states - but this is only while we are thinking. When the thinking becomes the object of investigation (dhammavicaya)there is no fear. This type of fear is unique to the putthujanna who has faith in the Dhamma (kalyanaputthujanna- good worldling). The one who doesn't believe in rebirth and hell realms will not have this fear BUT is likely to be reborn in the lower worlds becuase of wrongview. RobertK 34920 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 0:27am Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Christine, I was just doing some research for a reply to Ken H re paramattha dhammas, when another alternative to the translation of paramatthaka reared its ugly head. Atthaka apparently means eightfold, amd is the name of the vagga that contains this sutta. "The name of the Atthaka (Octets) derives from the fact that the first four poems in the set - - three of which contain the word atthaka in their titles -- are composed of eight verses." (from ATI) It seems there is a bit of wordplay going on in these poems :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Herman, Victor, all, > > Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar words? > > When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: > paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. > > I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka > Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means > touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta in > both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I > think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any > way to ultimate realities. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Herman and all, > > > > I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the > > view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just > a > > concept/paññatti. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > > wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > > > > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering > > them as > > > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of > > that, > > > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > > > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and > in > > ritual > > > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by > > laying hold > > > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those > > skilled (in > > > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, > > one > > > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should > not > > > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual > > observances. > > > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself > to > > be > > > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > > > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > > > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is > certainly > > not > > > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. > > In whom > > > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- > > becoming, > > > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a > fixed > > > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). > > Concerning > > > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least > > notion. > > > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could > he > > be > > > identified in the world? > > > > > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > > > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall > back > > on > > > views." > > > > > > -- vv. 796-803 > > > > > > taken from > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- > > 05a > > > .html > > > > > > > > > Savour the flavour > > > > > > > > > Herman 34921 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Ken, Just a preliminary question to gauge what level of precision you wish to apply to paramattha. The following is from Milindapanha: "What do you think, your majesty, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits in a high tree, and the other in a low tree; if these happen at the same time, the shadow of which one would settle on the ground first, and which one later?" "They are the same, venerable sir." "Just so, your majesty, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in the same time." "You are clever, venerable Nagasena." My take on this is that Nagasena is certainly clever, but wrong about which shadow settles on the ground first. In the above example there is clearly no knowledge or understanding of the finite speed of light and the consequent event boundaries, the relativity of events to observers, and the problems inherent in the idea of simultaneity. In light of the above, what am I to understand with your use of paramattha dhamma? Kind regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: kenhowardau [mailto:kenhowardau@y...] Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 10:12 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Herman, You wrote: ------------ > I am truly glad that you know exactly how to interpret the Teachings, and that you are without any doubt about this interpretation. > ------------ In my opinion, an exact interpretation would be; `The Teachings are satipatthana (direct understanding of an existing paramattha dhamma).' Do you agree with that interpretation? Kind Regards Herman 34922 From: Antony Woods Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: very disturbing sutta Dear Sarah, As in MN2, I have also used "This is suffering" when I felt doomed to be reborn as an animal after reading "Passing away as humans" sutta (SN56:102) (see below). Ironically this is exactly what the Buddha recommends at the end of the sutta. The context of that sutta helps though. Previously Buddha said that it is just as extremely rare to abstain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, intoxicants, mutilating, murder, binding, robbery, plunder and violence. Ancient India must have been a dangerous place! You wrote: "When I read suttas about the rarity of a human rebirth, I read them as a "celebration" of the opportunities we have now to hear, consider, reflect and understand a little more about the Dhamma -- not as cause for unnecessary fear and worry and more akusala as Bhante says. To give a very simplistic analogy, if we are given a precious gift on our birthday, we value it and take joy, we don't start dwelling on the chances of not being given such a gift tomorrow or next year. The point of these suttas, I believe is not to lead to unhealthy speculation about the future, but to remind us about the development of mindfulness and wisdom at the present moment." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34888 Antony: Thanks for the birthday gift analogy. Gratitude is very helpful in overcoming dosa (anxiety, guilt, worry and depression) For a Dhamma friend's birthday I sent him a copy of "Great Disciples of Buddha" with the message: "Your birthday celebrates your precious human birth in the Buddha's dispensation" ------------- SN 56:102-104 Passing Away as Humans Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus: "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?" "Venerable sir, the great earth is more. The little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction." "So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell...the animal realm....the domain of ghosts. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. "Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'....An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' (posted with permission from "Connected Discourses of the Buddha", Wisdom Publications, http://www.wisdompubs.org ) 34923 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Developing Faith, no 2. Dear Herman, I wanted to add something to my post on impermanence, but Yahoo decreed otherwise and sent it out suddenly. But it never is too late. You said: This is only thinking about the fact that all things change, and a person who had a loss or is very sad about something may not be conforted when he just hears: things will change. As I said, only through insight impermanence of what occurs at this very moment can be realized. But the person who is in a pit may not be so far yet. How to help? To let him see that whatever happens in life are phenomena arising because of conditions. Kamma is one of the conditions. Because of kamma one has to experience gain and loss, praise and blame, honour and dishonour, bodily wellbeing and bodily pain. When one sees life as conditioned phenomena it helps to take events less personally. We can learn that there are seeing, hearing, thinking, happiness, sadness, bodily phenomena. In short, we can learn that what we take for me or another person are: citta or consciousness, cetasika, mental qualities arising with the citta, and rupa, physical phenomena. This can help to be less involved with one's sorrow. I find it very helpful to read in the suttas about the separation of the six doors: seeing is quite different from hearing. Different objects are experienced through different doorways. This reminds us to develop more understanding of whatever appears at this moment. And also, performing all kinds of kusala helps. Because then one is less bent upon oneself, one forgets oneself and thinks of one's fellowmen. Nina. op 27-07-2004 00:25 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I wonder whether impermanence itself is dukkha, or whether it is the > looking for "our refuge" that is dukkha. Impermanence in itself is not a > problem, in fact knowing that all things must and will change can be a > great source of comfort and faith when in a deep pit. It is wanting > things that have been labeled me, mine and I to stay the same so that > the mirage of a self can be perpetuated a little longer. With the > evaporation of self-view, the nature of reality does not alter. If > impermanence in itself were dukkha, then there would be no end to > suffering. 34924 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala and akusala. Dear Jaran, op 27-07-2004 23:47 schreef jjnbdal op jjnbdal@y...:> > About kusala, I agree with you. Also, we tend to it more easily than > akusala, and we are not shy to 'notice' it. Here we must be honest to > ourselves whether we are understanding it better or simply are > attached to our kusala. N: A good subject for discussion. But I think we mostly incline to akusala, there are countless akusala cittas in a day. And, as you remind me, we like to think of ourselves as a good person when we perform kusala. It is bound to come in all the time. Thoughts of how good we are to help others, etc. Thus, lots of conceit. Lodewijk said it is pretty grim. I answered that we should be grateful, because without the Buddha we would not know. We may not like to face akusala, but all akusala has to be realized by pañña. We know very little about all the different types of citta, but as A. Sujin stresses time and again, the difference between nama and rupa has to be realized and that is the first stage of tender insight. J: Last time I check with A. Suwat, he will let me know when there is > cancellation, but it is almost impossible. N: You never know how conditions work out. Lodewijk also likes to see you and your father in India again! J: I have been following internet boardcast of dhamma discussion from the > foundation every weekend (Sat 9-11, Sun 9-11 and 14.15-16 Bangkok > Time). It is very nice to be able to listen to it life and send in > questions. N: This is great. Can you share with us just one question you send in and the answer, if you have time? Eager for some crumbs! J: Please send my regards to Lodewijk. N: Lodewijk also sends his best regards to you, Nina. 34925 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:26pm Subject: Re: Baby and Bathwater Hi Rob M --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Ken H and All, > > Recently, I reread Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Two Faces of the Dhamma" > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/two_faces_of_the_dhamma.htm > > I was struck by how BB was able to reconcile the religious aspect of > Buddhism with the intellectual aspect of Buddhism. > > I started thinking about how the "pro-meditation" and the "anti- > meditation" camps could be reconciled. ------------------- That is very good and worthy of you; there is no doubt about that. But, when it comes to reconciling, perhaps I'm not the man you should be talking to. :-) I am a little obsessive (maybe fundamentalist) whenever `compromise' and `Dhamma' are mentioned in the same sentence. :-) The Dhamma is incredibly hard to understand, but what are we going to do about that? Some might say, `If you can't understand the Dhamma, then study something you can understand.' Others might say, `If you can't understand it, change it; water it down; turn it into something you can understand.' Still others might say, "If you can't understand, know that you can't understand: that is your right understanding." The last of those three options is the only acceptable one. The second option is completely untenable: the Dhamma must not be corrupted (for whatever reason). As a somewhat opinionated person (have been all my life) I'd be hopeless at your teaching job: people would desert my classroom in droves. And if I were a student in your class, I'd drive you mad continually asking fundamentalist questions. For example, where you say: ------------ RM: > Let us take the example of giving (dana). Given the pervasiveness of self view among uninstructed worldlings, it is almost certain than most acts of dana involve a lot of self view ("I am giving" / "I will get good results" / "I will be seen as generous" / etc.). Does this mean that acts of dana should be discouraged? I think not. ------------- I'd be asking, "Please Rob, which paramattha dhamma is dana?" In other words, "Don't talk to me about conventional giving, I'm here to learn Dhamma!" -------------- RM: > I recognize that there was some self view and some conceit when I volunteered to teach Abhidhamma ("I can do a good job") and that there is some fear each week that drives me to prepare my classes ("I don't want to look like an unprepared fool"). Given that much of the motivation is driven by unwholesome thoughts, should I give up teaching? I think not. ---------------- Here again, I'd be asking, "Which paramattha dhamma is `volunteer;' which paramattha dhamma is `teacher?' How is teacher ultimately different from student?" And so on. (And on.) ------------------ RM: > My opinion is that formal meditation without self-view is orders of magnitude better than formal meditation that often (but not always) includes self-view. I also believe that formal meditation that often (but not always) includes self-view is better than no formal meditation. In other words, I am afraid that by rejecting formal meditation you are "throwing out the baby with the bathwater". -------------------- So, Rob, in all seriousness, which paramattha dhamma is `formal meditation?' In one sense, it is a concept (as distinct from a dhamma) but what is the citta (or the `All,' the loka) when, conventionally speaking, there is formal meditation? Whatever it is, it is not satipatthana. And satipatthana is what the Buddha taught. Why then, would we be practising formal meditation? Given the three options above, is it 1, because satipatthana is too hard and we have decided to do something easy instead? Or is it 2, because satipatthana is too hard and so we are professing that this `counterfeit satipatthana' is what the Buddha really taught? Or is it 3, . . . . Well, no, it couldn't be three – when there is right understanding (that satipatthana is too hard) there is no formal meditation. -------------------- RM: > I believe that you have written in the past that the Buddha did not support formal meditation. This confuses me. There are dozens of Suttas which mention jhanas but not one that mentions Einstein's theory of relativity or Darwin's Theory of Evolution. This is because ----------------------- I will stop you there, Rob, because I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. Jhana is not formal meditation. Jhana meditators are a holy-men (and women): born tihetuka (with all three root conditions) they are exceptional individuals. Sitting straight- backed at the base of a tree in a remote forest is their natural inclination. There is no thought in them, "I will pretend to be something I am not." That's my effort for Round 1. I don't know if it did anything for reconciliation. :-) Kind regards, Ken H > (as mentioned in more than one Sutta) the scope of the teaching is > limited to things leading to the holy life and to leading to Nibbana. > Clearly, jhanas are related to the holy life (at least for some) > while Einstein's theory of relativity and Darwin's Theory of > Evolution have nothing to do with the holy life or Nibbana > (nevertheless, I have two books in my library titled, "Buddhist > Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity" and "Origin > of Species According to The Buddha"). > > I regret that I am rushing out on vacation, so I will not have time > for a lengthy exchange on this subject. Perhaps we could do Round 1 > and Round 2 now and save the remainder for when I return end August. > > I really am interested in your point of view on this. > > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > PS: Thanks to all for your valuable input on Faith. I will summarize > it and will use it next week during my class. 34926 From: Andrew Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:55pm Subject: Re: Baby and Bathwater --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Ken H and All, > > Recently, I reread Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Two Faces of the Dhamma" > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/two_faces_of_the_dhamma.htm > > I was struck by how BB was able to reconcile the religious aspect of > Buddhism with the intellectual aspect of Buddhism. > > I started thinking about how the "pro-meditation" and the "anti- > meditation" camps could be reconciled. Hi Rob M Let me jump in with a comment before Ken H gets a chance! (-: How do we respond to the following? 1. In a number of suttas, the Buddha severely reprimanded those who inaccurately recited his teaching and praised those who accurately recited it; and 2. The Buddha predicted the gradual corruption and disappearance of his teaching. For me, these 2 factors lead to the conclusion that "tension" within the Buddhist community is inevitable and doctrinal disputes will arise that are irreconcilable. If I say "2+2=4" and you say "2+2=3", do we reconcile it at 3.5? No! We each explain our own calculation and critique the other's in a respectful manner. Then it's up to each of us to decide which is the truer calculation. If we don't do this and for the sake of "amity" or "appearance" strive for doctrinal reconciliation, we are creating the mechanism whereby "doctrinal change" or "doctrinal corruption" (pick whichever term you prefer) happens. We need to keep the ego out of Dhamma discussion as far as possible. But we mustn't be afraid of disagreement. Otherwise we may throw the baby out with the bathwater [get rid of disputes by altering the Dhamma]. What's wrong with altering the Dhamma? It means that people further down the line don't get the opportunity to decide things for themselves. Best wishes Andrew 34927 From: Andrew Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:03pm Subject: Re: Introductions...from California Hi Daniel Welcome to DSG. 5 years in Thailand? I look forward to hearing about what you learned there. No doubt your teaching duties took up a huge part of your time but I'm sure you have lots of experiences you can share. Best wishes Andrew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "danielsalinero43" wrote: > Hello everyone, > My name is Daniel and I'm very glad to have "stumbled" upon your > group. I look forward to learning from your insights on the Dhamma > and hope to make a small contribution from time to time. I became a > practitioner soon after I moved to Thailand in 1995. I taught there > at 2 international schools before returning to the US in > December,2000. I'm now teaching first grade in a local elementary > school in Indio, California. I posted two pictures of myself in the > photos section so that a face might go with my words. > Yours i the Dhamma, > Daniel S. 34928 From: Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Baby and Bathwater Hi, Ken (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/28/04 7:28:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > RM: >Let us take the example of giving (dana). Given the > pervasiveness of self view among uninstructed worldlings, it is > almost certain than most acts of dana involve a lot of self view ("I > am giving" / "I will get good results" / "I will be seen as > generous" / etc.). Does this > mean that acts of dana should be discouraged? I think not. > ------------- > > I'd be asking, "Please Rob, which paramattha dhamma is dana?" In > other words, "Don't talk to me about conventional giving, I'm here > to learn Dhamma!" > > -------------- > RM: >I recognize that there was some self view and some conceit > when I volunteered to teach Abhidhamma ("I can do a good job") and > that there is some fear each week that drives me to prepare my > classes ("I don't want to look like an unprepared fool"). Given that > much of the motivation is driven by unwholesome thoughts, should I > give up teaching? I think not. > ---------------- > > Here again, I'd be asking, "Which paramattha dhamma is `volunteer;' > which paramattha dhamma is `teacher?' How is teacher ultimately > different from student?" And so on. (And on.) > > ------------------ > RM: >My opinion is that formal meditation without self-view is > orders of magnitude better than formal meditation that often (but > not always) includes self-view. I also believe that formal > meditation that often (but not always) includes self-view is better > than no formal meditation. In other words, I am afraid that by > rejecting formal meditation you are "throwing out the baby with the > bathwater". > -------------------- > > So, Rob, in all seriousness, which paramattha dhamma is `formal > meditation?' In one sense, it is a concept (as distinct from a > dhamma) but what is the citta (or the `All,' the loka) when, > conventionally speaking, there is formal meditation? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jesus, Ken! Which paramattha dhamma is food? And which paramattha dhamma is medicine? When you need sustenance do you not eat? When you are ill, do you not take medicine? The Buddha taught for 45 years using conventional language to endorse useful conventional actions! Don't you realize that the paramattha dhammas are not off somewhere else, but are right here as the mental building blocks of the our mind-made world? Because of the relational patterns holding among dhammas, we are able to usefully construct and deal with well grounded concepts. Were we unable to conceptualize, we wouldn't survive. (We move out of the way of a car bearing down on us only because of concept.) And were we unable to conceptualize, we wouldn't understand one word of the Dhamma!! ----------------------------------------------------- > > Whatever it is, it is not satipatthana. And satipatthana is what the > Buddha taught. Why then, would we be practising formal meditation? > > Given the three options above, is it 1, because satipatthana is too > hard and we have decided to do something easy instead? Or is it 2, > because satipatthana is too hard and so we are professing that > this `counterfeit satipatthana' is what the Buddha really taught? Or > is it 3, . . . . Well, no, it couldn't be three – when there is > right understanding (that satipatthana is too hard) there is no > formal meditation. > > -------------------- > RM: >I believe that you have written in the past that the Buddha > did not support formal meditation. This confuses me. There are > dozens of Suttas which mention jhanas but not one that mentions > Einstein's theory of relativity or Darwin's Theory of Evolution. > This is because > ----------------------- > > I will stop you there, Rob, because I'm not sure we are talking > about the same thing. Jhana is not formal meditation. Jhana > meditators are a holy-men (and women): born tihetuka (with all three > root conditions) they are exceptional individuals. Sitting straight- > backed at the base of a tree in a remote forest is their natural > inclination. There is no thought in them, "I will pretend to be > something I am not." > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, I believe this is just nonsense. There are many people who have made much progress with jhanas. Even I, with little practice, have stumbled into them in the past, and, at the moment the enhanced regularity of my meditation on breathing is producing desirable results including great calm and clarity though not yet absorption. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34929 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Howard, ------------------- . . . H> I think we ought to stop with some of that questioning and just look and see! -------------------- Do you mean, "Just practise satipatthana?" If so, I agree. Satipatthana is not a form of questioning, and so, if questioning immediately precedes it, it will amount to a stopping of questioning. But there is no need for any prior stopping: ultimately, questioning is a dhamma and so it can be known with right understanding. ----------------------- H: > There just is no self anywhere to be seen at all! ----------------------- So I understand. But I do not know it from my own direct experience. I know it indirectly by studying the Dhamma. --------------------- H: > When we feel a sense of self, and we look at that, all there is is that passing "feeling". ---------------------- As you know, this is where I start looking askance. :-) Is Howard recommending some sort of pseudo-satipatthana? ---------------------- H: > When there are what we might call I-oriented thoughts, incuding self-oriented emotions, and we look at them, all there are are those thoughts and emotions. Thoughts and feelings of conceit, jealousy, Best, I think if we repeat less often the principle "There is no self" as Buddhist catechism, and busy ourselves more with looking - carefully, intently, and with clarity - at what there actually is to be seen. Then we will come to know, wordlessly and without doubt, what is what. ----------------------- If that was meant as an intellectual description of satipatthana, then it would be fine, thank you. However, I think you are advocating a ritualistic (formal) practice. Dhammas come and go in an instant and they can be experienced only by other dhammas. If there is no sati and no panna amongst those experiencing dhammas then there is no knowledge of dhammas: There is only knowledge of concept, which is no knowledge at all really - just a part of the concept. Not only would your ritual fail to reveal dhammas and the characteristics of dhammas it would also deny the difference between concepts and dhammas. That is not something I want to do. Sorry to sound unappreciative. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34930 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: Baby and Bathwater Hi Ken H / Andrew / Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > I started thinking about how the "pro-meditation" and the "anti- > > meditation" camps could be reconciled. > ------------------- > > That is very good and worthy of you; there is no doubt about that. > But, when it comes to reconciling, perhaps I'm not the man you > should be talking to. :-) I am a little obsessive (maybe > fundamentalist) whenever `compromise' and `Dhamma' are mentioned in > the same sentence. :-) ===== Sorry if I gave the impression that I was looking for a compromise. I am looking for reconcillation. I am hoping that as we study the Dhamma more closely we can understand the Dhamma better and thereby realize that both perspectives can be correct. I am reminded of a Zen story: Monk 1: The Buddha taught about rebirth, so it is important that we understand rebirth. Abbot: That is correct. Monk 2: The Buddha taught us to be aware of the present moment, so there is no need to understand rebirth. Abbot: That is correct. Monk 1 & Monk 2: We can't both be correct!!! Abbot: That is also correct. The point here is that Monk 1 and Monk 2 are both correct for their own development. The eightfold noble path has many variations and each are correct for that traveller. ===== > > The Dhamma is incredibly hard to understand, but what are we going > to do about that? Some might say, `If you can't understand the > Dhamma, then study something you can understand.' Others might > say, `If you can't understand it, change it; water it down; turn it > into something you can understand.' Still others might say, "If you > can't understand, know that you can't understand: that is your right > understanding." > > The last of those three options is the only acceptable one. The > second option is completely untenable: the Dhamma must not be > corrupted (for whatever reason). ===== I am not comfortable with your presentation of the Dhamma as a monolithic whole. My kid understands that good brings good and bad brings bad. Understanding comes in degrees. There is much benefit from partial understanding. Of course, complete understanding is only for Buddhas, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't constantly try to deepen our understanding. ===== > > As a somewhat opinionated person (have been all my life) I'd be > hopeless at your teaching job: people would desert my classroom in > droves. And if I were a student in your class, I'd drive you mad > continually asking fundamentalist questions. For example, where you > say: > ------------ > RM: > Let us take the example of giving (dana). Given the > pervasiveness of self view among uninstructed worldlings, it is > almost certain than most acts of dana involve a lot of self view ("I > am giving" / "I will get good results" / "I will be seen as > generous" / etc.). Does this > mean that acts of dana should be discouraged? I think not. > ------------- > > I'd be asking, "Please Rob, which paramattha dhamma is dana?" In > other words, "Don't talk to me about conventional giving, I'm here > to learn Dhamma!" ===== The action of dana is a complicated sequence of events involving cittas in which alobha is prevalent and corresponding citta- generated body intimation rupas. Food is a combination of the four great aggregates (all rupas) plus the four main derived rupas (visible object, flavour, smell and nutrition). Breaking things down to this level can help if we are observing the sense doors but, as Howard points out, leaving them at the conceptual level can also support an improved understanding of the Dhamma. Gotta fly, I will respond to the rest of your message soon. Metta, Rob M :-) 34931 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: very disturbing sutta Dear Antony, I never heard such a lovely birthday wish! And welcome to the Pali list. Success with your study! Since the computer takes over the welcoming there, I was asked not to welcome newbies anymore because of space. Nina. op 28-07-2004 13:44 schreef Antony Woods op antony272b@h...: > "Your birthday celebrates your precious human birth in the > Buddha's dispensation" 34932 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Herman, H: > Just a preliminary question to gauge what level of precision you wish to apply to paramattha. ------------- Fire away, I appreciate your diligence. -------------- H: > The following is from Milindapanha: "What do you think, your majesty, if two birds fly in the sky and one My take on this is that Nagasena is certainly clever, but wrong about which shadow settles on the ground first. In the above example there is clearly no knowledge or understanding of the finite speed of light and the consequent event boundaries, the relativity of events to observers, and the problems inherent in the idea of simultaneity. In light of the above, what am I to understand with your use of paramattha dhamma? > ------------------------- Actually, Nagasena had a degree in physics from Magadha University. Didn't you know that? He was simplifying the explanation for Milinda's benefit. Had he been talking to you or me, he would have corrected his calculations by about 1.36 trillionths of a second. Then, we would have felt reassured: the two rebirth-cittas do take the same time to reach their destinations. Now, can you answer my question? :-) Ken H 34933 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:43pm Subject: The Flowers ... Friends: Life is Beautiful they say, but what about Death ? The person engaging himself in collecting sensual flowers outside the Noble 8-fold Path, is caught up by Ageing, Sickness & Death as if he was sleeping! Never is he fully satisfied by these 'flowers' of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches & thoughts ...Thus addicted, he keeps coming back to life by rebirth to collect ever more & more! Thus obsessed, he keeps coming back to birth. Inevitably, enslaved like that, he keeps returning to ageing, sickness & death, since born one always dies too ... Thus craving the beauty of the 'Flowers' he remains in the sea of Suffering called Samsara for trillions of years! Seeing all these flowers of sensing always whither momentarily even right there while experiencing them, makes one realize the futility of collecting them, since they are always lost, because they never last... The myth of constant continuity is broken right there. The dream of possible lasting & safe pleasure evaporates. The clinging identification with empty imprints ends. The all pervading universal transience is there directly perceived... All phenomena is then seen, as passing momentary mental states, which cannot be 'I, Me, Mine, My Self, Ego' or ever 'owned' !!! which cannot be safe enduring satisfying pleasure & happiness !!! After all who really wants an empty and hollow constructed image, which vanish instantly by itself ??? The alternative bliss of still, formless, silent Freedom & Peace is absolute, safe, certain, eternal & called Nibbaana ... To go out beyond the so sensual flowers of death ... All yours in the True Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34934 From: Andrew Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala citta with right view. Dear Nina Thank you for this explanation which I have read twice so far. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > [snip] All this may be > more understandable when we consider that kusala citta is only a moment, and > that the next moment may be akusala citta with wrong view. Akusala citta is > always rooted in ignorance, moha. Andrew: It is so hard to comprehend the speed of these conditioned cittas and to see "ourselves" as a mixture of paramattha dhammas and impermanent. Best wishes Andrew 34935 From: antony272b2 Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:05pm Subject: motivations for dana and results Dear RM and all, Here is Dana sutta which addresses the point below: Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Translator's note: This discourse discusses the motivations one might have for being generous, and rates in ascending order the results that different motivations can lead to. The Commentary notes that the highest motivation, untainted by lower motivations and leading to non-returning, requires a certain level of mastery in concentration and insight in order to be one's genuine motivation for giving. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-049.html > > RM: >Let us take the example of giving (dana). Given the > > pervasiveness of self view among uninstructed worldlings, it is > > almost certain than most acts of dana involve a lot of self view ("I > > am giving" / "I will get good results" / "I will be seen as > > generous" / etc.). Does this > > mean that acts of dana should be discouraged? I think not. > > ------------- metta / Antony. 34936 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:01am Subject: RE: [dsg] Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Ken, >In light of the above, what am I to understand with your use of >paramattha dhamma? > ------------------------- Actually, Nagasena had a degree in physics from Magadha University. Didn't you know that? He was simplifying the explanation for Milinda's benefit. Had he been talking to you or me, he would have corrected his calculations by about 1.36 trillionths of a second. Then, we would have felt reassured: the two rebirth-cittas do take the same time to reach their destinations. Now, can you answer my question? :-) ====================================== I cannot gauge from what you say what a paramattha dhamma is to you. It's no big deal to me what others say they believe, so I am quite happy to leave this where it is. I guess I will never know how many kusala cittas occur in 1.36 trillionths of a second. Kind Regards Herman 34937 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:02am Subject: Formal Surfing and the Art of Non-Compromise WARNING: * a really frivolous post better ignored by the wise* Hi Howard (RobM& KenH), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Jesus, Ken! Which paramattha dhamma is food? And which paramattha > > dhamma is medicine? When you need sustenance do you not eat? When you > are ill, do > you not take medicine? <....> > Howard: > Ken, I believe this is just nonsense. ***** Howard, just think of poor Reg (or lucky Reg,as some might say) who is about to have the full works unleashed on him when KenH (and other DSGers) meet up at Cooran.....Hopefully you’ll find Jon and I very reasonable by this time;-). Last minute arrangements, KenH?-- by now I think we all know the drill: -Christine and Steve in charge of the travelling library -Andrew in charge of sleeping arrangements -- but even I know that the girls get the cats, Reg gets the stars and the other guys have their particular sheds......(Blankets, everyone, take blankets......) -RobK and Azita have long travel visitor status, no need to bring anything but their wits, which they have plenty of As usual it leaves the question of your (KenH’s) literary contribution in the air and my usual task of giving you a few prompts so that there’s no risk of missing a day’s surf while you anxiously scribble out a paper . I'm thinking that this time you should start on your book with the best seller lists in mind -- a kind of 'day-in-the-life' meets ‘Formal Surfing and the Art of Non-Compromise’. Don’t worry, KenH, the whole task can be delegated - you can give everyone at Cooran a chapter to work on. There’s no need to go out of one’s way to NOT avoid Stress, after all. Leadership is all about delegation and some of those guys must know you pretty well by now.... ***** My contribution will be the first very rough draft of the Maatikaa or Table of Contents for your book, along these lines perhaps: 1. 'Check the Wind', reflect on the elements and if it’s a good day, determine to be out of the house in 30 minutes. 2. 'A wiz round vacuum' of yesterday’s sand - fortunately no cushions, coffee mugs, texts, papers or other paraphernalia that those other poor blighted souls....(oops, our old friend mana (conceit) making an early appearance in the day). 3. 'A quick bowl of congee', the food of the wise Theras in the Buddha’s day, with the advantage of no greasy dishes or shopping- just a sackful of rice for the year. 4. 'Pick up the surf-board' - no need for shoes, hats, glasses or any of those other accessories the wimpy Poms.. (oh no, there we go again. Still at least Connie’s on the right track....remember, Connie, patience is the highest asceticism...so a few blisters on the path to enlightenment won’t go astray. That’s NOT a ritual if anyone asks....) 5. Nearly forgot those 'guys on DSG'...(oh well, a quick one handed bash on the keyboard -- no need to stop to put the surf board down, otherwise those ##@@!! longboarders might get to the waves first.....is that kusala? Luckily I’ve made it clear I have no pretensions of being a sotapanna....) ...now just a friendly metta-filled word or two to those F.Ms who think they can relax on a month’s holiday under a sunny Reconciliation umbrella while the rest of us slog it out or to anyone whose been led astray by ATI all these years into thinking Buddhism is the truth about Self...... 6. A fast 'bare-foot jog' (lost a few minutes when I saw Howard hadn’t been completely convinced by my last sound arguments on jhana) through the eucalyptus woods, and past the koalas and the picture-book beaches where the mere worldlings (I mean the swimmers and sand castle folk) spend their time. Reflecting on the paramattha dhammas --I’m sure Nina, will be supplying the references for me while I show the kids how to catch a wave or two--and lo and behold those very paramattha dhammas are arising and falling right now...but this is only the Mattika. See CMA or ask Sarah to quote. 7. Time for serious 'Formal Surfing'. Words not required. 8. 'Return from another hard day of practice'....check the callouses on the hands...nah, not for the seasoned F.S.s. 9. 'How it beats...' the tax office, the dairy farm, the lawyer’s briefs, house-husbandry or countless oodles of hours on the cushion.....been there, done that (oh, mana again...but maybe a little compassion too for all those poor struggling folk this time). 10. 'Paramattha dhammas Win!!' Maybe throw in one of those Zen stories? Nah, too easy to read as giving a hint of reconciliation. Stand firm and go for the Big Waves.... ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 34938 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:49am Subject: Precepts and Mouse Tales Hello all, I have been catching a few field mice in the non-harming trap - but has anyone ever noticed that they never tell you what to do with the cute little fellas once you've got them holding the bars of the cage with their tiny little paws, and quivering their tiny pink noses and whiskers at you. I couldn't take him down the back of the property, because a snake or bird might eat him, the frosts have started, and anyway, he'd probably walk straight back. I started out in the car, thinking I could drop the latest one off at the SDA church up the road (with the cane toads). But I realized there was no water there and the grass was too short to hide in. So I drove further on. I came to where the creek wends backwards and forward across the road, but the Shire Council had mown the footpaths and there were Butcher birds on the telegraph wires. So I drove further on. I passed the hospital, but remembered the cats that live in the carpark. So I drove further on. I came to the horse stud, but, being winter the grass is non-existent, and I couldn't stop anyway because of speeding traffic. So I drove further on. I came to the Freeway and drove thirty kilometres to where my daughter is living. I said 'We have a problem'. She said, 'Oh look at the cute little darling'. So we had a cup of tea, and looked. The cute little fella started gnawing the bars. Unreasonably, my daughter wouldn't let me release it behind her garage, where there was some grass cover. Eventually, we realised there was only one thing to do. We cut the lid of an old shoe box in half. We drove the mouse to the local park where there was a creek, bar-b-que areas and bins, lots of reed beds, long grass, and a Re-aforestation area. We found a fallen tree, next to it we half buried the shoe box lid, covered it with leaves, dirt and grass, and a suitable size small log, placed the little one's food and a mouse sized water container in the shoe box lid, released the mouse, who ran straight into the shelter, wished him the best of luck and left. We both were a bit teary. After all, he was now so far from home. Tonight - I found another little fella in the trap. I 'accidentally' bumped it, he wiggled out and ran under the washing machine. (sigh) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34939 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:52am Subject: RE: [dsg] Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi Ken, I'll leave your question re paramattha dhamma to one side (don't know which side either :-)) But I have a few other points I'd like to raise: You wrote: ====================================== Ken H> The point I was making was that you and I have not eradicated belief in self. Far from being noble disciples, we are uninstructed worldlings. Is that so bad? If there are only dhammas (no travellers on the Path and no travellers of samsara) then there is no cause for concern. Only when there is ignorance of dhammas is there (a perceived) cause for concern. -------------- Are you suggesting there are only dhammas? Would you call conditions dhammas? Would you call views dhammas? Is the "there are" of dhammas the same "there are" of conditions? Is the "there are" of views the same as either of the other two? If there are dhammas, are the dhammas apart from their "thereness" etc etc? What is the practical relevance of the statement "there are only dhammas"? =================================================================== H: > If you really don't get it, and understand that you don't get it, despite your firm if not rigid understanding of the texts, why be bothered with views in other camps that are at odds with yours. ---------------- Ken H> Let me put that another way: `If I really am not a sotapanna, and I understand that I am not a sotapanna, despite my intellectual understanding of paramattha dhammas, then why should I bother with views that disclaim the reality of dhammas?' Because those ignorant views are causes for concern. They should be sign-posted, "Not the Buddha's Teaching!" ---------------- H: > If my views or practice lead me around in circles, I accept that it is time to take stock. But then, that is me :-) ----------------- That is me, too, and it is always time to take stock. Why are we not sotapanna? Because we have not eradicated belief in self. Is that cause for concern? No, because there are only dhammas. ===================== Is the Path a dhamma? Is samsara a dhamma? Is a cause a dhamma? Is concern a dhamma? Is shoulding a dhamma? Is the Buddha a dhamma? Is teaching a dhamma? Is self-view a dhamma? Is eradication a dhamma? Sorry if this seems like long-winded repetition, but I really wonder what comfort is to be taken from the fact that everything that is, is. Kind Regards Herman 34940 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions re kamma/kusala Hi Herman, I don’t think anyone answered this one, so let me try ... --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi everyone, > > My questions are with reference to the following excerpt from A.i.263: > > "Monks! There are three root causes of kamma. What are the three? They > are greed ... hatred ... delusion ... > "Whatever kamma is performed out of greed ... hatred ... delusion, is > born from greed ... hatred ... delusion, has greed ... hatred ... > delusion as its root and as its cause, that kamma is unskillful, that > kamma is harmful, that kamma has suffering as a result, that kamma > brings about the creation of more kamma, not the cessation of kamma. > "Monks! There are these three root causes of kamma. What are the three? > They are non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion ... > "Whatever kamma is performed out of non-greed ... non-hatred ... > non-delusion, is born of non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion, has > non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion as its root and its cause, > that kamma is skillful, that kamma is not harmful, that kamma has > happiness as a result, that kamma brings about the cessation of kamma, > not the creation of more kamma ..." > ================================= > What is the name(s) of the sutta this is taken from? .... S: PTS gives ‘Three Causes’, and gives a footnote for ‘Causes’ as ‘Nidaanaani=kaara.naani. Comy (which accumulate actions leading to the round of rebirth). http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/index.html gives: 9. Pañhamanidhànasuttaü - First on the origination of actions. (The Pali can also be found here - Bk of 3s, chX1, 3.3.1.9 - I think!) ..... When I asked B.Bodhi about discrepancies in titles of suttas, esp. in AN, he said that they are only given by the translators, hence no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. ..... H:> What are the original Pali words translated here as delusion, harmful > and happiness? ..... S: delusion = moha harmful = saavajja (blamable, what is censurable) happiness = sukha vipaaka ... H: > Is it accurate to say, based on this sutta, that a sine qua non of > kusala kamma is that it brings about the cessation of kamma ie all four > criteria must be met before an act is classified as kusala? (if one was > classifying, that is :-)) ... S: I think by the 4 criteria, you are referring to: > that kamma is skillful, that kamma is not harmful, that kamma has > happiness as a result, that kamma brings about the cessation of kamma, > not the creation of more kamma ..." Hmmm, good question. The www.metta.lk translation gives ‘It brings pleasant results and conduces to cessation of actions, not to the arising of more actions’. I think ‘conduces to...’ is better. Kusala kamma is a supporting condition rather than the cause of the end of rebirths. The PTS translation also gives, with regard to kusala kamma that ‘it is praiseworthy, it has happiness for its result, it conduces to the ending of (further) action, not to the arising thereof.’ In the latter case, the translator also stresses that the kusala kamma being referred to are the causes of preventing/ending the*unskilful* actions referred to in the first part of the sutta and perhaps this is how the last line should be read. I believe 'nirodhaaya' is the opposite of 'samudayaaya'. “Absence of lust, absence of malice, absence of delusion are the causes [footnote: ‘Not really causes, but prohibitive of action’] (which prevent the arising) of actions. An action done without lust, not born of lust, not caused by lust, not originated by lust (malice....delusion), it is praiseworthy, it has happiness for its result, it conduces to the ending of (further) action, not to the arising thereof.”* Not sure I’m doing....hope you also saw my other point form post to you. Appreciating your reflections from your reading...Nina or others with more Pali expertise may be able to help further. Metta, Sarah ===== *Tãõimàni bhikkhave nidànàni kammànaü samudayàya. Katamàni tãõi: alobho nidànaü kammànaü samudayàya. Adoso nidànaü kammànaü samudayàya. Amoho nidànaü kammànaü samudayàya. Yaü bhikkhave alobhapakataü kammaü alobhajaü alobhanidànaü alobhasamudayaü, taü kammaü kusalaü, taü kammaü anavajjaü, taü kammaü sukhavipàkaü, taü kammaü kammanirodhàya saüvattati. Na taü kammaü kammasamudayàya saüvattati. 34941 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction Hi Connie aka Angel Eyes (& Icaro), I always enjoy your contributions;-) Should we add a rule to make weekly diary installments compulsory for you and Icaro? --- connieparker wrote: > They teach a kind of a 'fake it until you make it' thing it seems and > John > has been known to groan when I start to ask a question/comment. Last > time > he did it, I was just trying to say I agreed with him. > > Gave a guy a Hawaiian translation of the Christian bible a couple weeks > > ago. I don't know why I ever kept it except that I sometimes lie to > myself about 'maybe someday' learning to read things (like Pali?). ... S: I only understand about half of it, but that's a higher percentage than when I read Icaro's and as I say, both are a good tonic, especially like now when I'm having a hard time shaking off a feverish bug. ..... He > reminded me that God's name is supposed to have been dropping out of the > > newer translations. Shrug. Someone had said something about the > Christian missionaries in Thailand changing bible teachings around to > include "Buddha said"s. Both could be good trends, I suppose, but > quicker > just to put the bibles down and check out the Tipitaka. .... Oh Connie, you're priceless... and have won your prize;-) ... >Laughed at my > mental revisions of the Hebrew bible while thinking of the the qualities > > of a certain god. My apologies for every time I've ever made up my mind > > when I'm accountable for the fabled(?) western pureland, too. > > Life's too funny sometimes. A girl named me Angel Eyes this morning. .... Metta and lobha for more... Sarah p.s Anytime others find DSG heavy going and need some light relief, try 'Z' - zany light relief in U.P: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ===== 34942 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] For those going on the India Pilgrimage in 16/31 October 2004 Hi Christine & Jaran, Chris, thanks so much for the links - I especially appreciated the map of India in the Buddha's time.....and started the article on archaeology. Also the article on the Burmese monk and his recitals - fascinating. Jaran, good to see you around -- Have you changed company? Are you still in Singapore?-- Do hope you can join India - I always enjoy your lively contributions and help to everyone. Someone is bound to drop out - it could be any of us. We hope to be in Bkk on Sat 28th Aug (with some use them or lose them air mile points). Perhaps we can try to help then. Metta, Sarah ====== 34943 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello Hi Vital, I was glad to hear you sounding much better. Look at the posts under 'Depressed...' in U.P. if you are having a hard time still with regard to the end of your relationship: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I think the reaction of Bernard's family is quite understandable and he also has loyalties to his family who live far away. You're in a great and progressive country and have a good job and assistance with essential health-care as you say. Stay put and consider holidays in Asia rather than throwing the support away with the illusion that the loneliness and other defilements will be lessened somewhere else. With the internet and discussion groups like this, it really matters less and less where one is. It's good that you appreciate that Dhamma is more important than possessions and other material factors. Instead of being too concerned about the enlightenment about all living beings, how about just taking a step at a time and beginning to understand the present realities? Keep in touch with us. Metta, Sarah ===== --- "bernard.vital" wrote: > That is a little bit how I see and feel and act and how I life every > day. I > like to ask you not to say that I am good or bad. The only thing I liek > to > ask you is to give me some advice, to be a guide to me for a while and > show > me better the way I have to go now to get enleightment for the wellness > of > all the living beeings. > > Vital > www.vitalmoors.nl 34944 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > I'm interested in what you are advising James here, ... Just some hard-core paramattha dhammas;-) .... >where would > I obtain a copy of Kathavatthu, .. Pali Text Society - translated as 'Points of Controversy'. .... >and what is CMA.????? ... You mean you didn't read my post to James a day or two before (26th)? Just kidding. I wrote: >As you like B.Bodhi’s translations and notes, I highly recommend his translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha with his explanatory notes after each section. I think it meets all your criteria. It’s translated as ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’ (usually referred to as CMA on this list), and is a relatively inexpensive and slim text. It’s published in hard copy by BPS and soft copy (US$24) by Pariyatti. This is a manual which condenses the whole Abhidhamma and has been accepted and widely used in Theravada since compiled in the 10th century. I think you’d find it an excellent reference source and after reading the messages carefully on DSG for some time as you’ve been doing and having read BB’s sutta translations such as SN with commentary notes, you’d be surprised at how much of the content is familiar to you.< ... I'm sure you'd find it very useful too, especially if you don't have any of the other translations of Ab.Sangaha. I like this one best and BB's notes compiled from various sources are mostly very helpful, though there are some we'd take issue with. A couple I've had some correspondence with him on. Some great charts contributed by U Silanananda too. .... > Patience, courage and good cheer, .... Hope you're in good cheer too and let us know off-list with an add if you'd like us to get a copy of CMA to you. Have a good trip to Cooran* if we don't speak before then. Metta, Sarah * for Newbies to the list, this is a spot miles from anywhere in Queensland, Australia where AndrewA lives. Every few months other QLD DSGers join together for a weekend of lively discussion. Some of us look forward to the notes and reports afterwards. ====== 34945 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introductions...from California Hi Daniel,, I'd like to second Andrew and thank you for a very neat intro. Nice pics too....how about it, other newcomers? We have a team to help with any technical probs. One of our members, Betty Yugala, who lives in Bkk used to teach in an international school there too. I forget when she retired. She taught history. Jon used to teach at Thammasat U, but that's going back to the 70s. Do you spend anytime in San Fran? Some of our good Thai American friends have regular discussions there, including Kom our lurking assistant with all mod things. Look forward to hearing more from you too. Metta, Sarah ========= --- danielsalinero43 wrote: > Hello everyone, > My name is Daniel and I'm very glad to have "stumbled" upon your > group. I look forward to learning from your insights on the Dhamma > and hope to make a small contribution from time to time. I became a > practitioner soon after I moved to Thailand in 1995. I taught there > at 2 international schools before returning to the US in > December,2000. I'm now teaching first grade in a local elementary > school in Indio, California. I posted two pictures of myself in the > photos section so that a face might go with my words. > Yours i the Dhamma, > Daniel S. 34946 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I just reread part 4 of Ven Thanissaro's article "The Not-Self > Strategy". In this section he seems to recognize Right View as a part of > the well > known raft of the Buddha's that must be put down on reaching the far > shore. ... S: I think it should be emphasised that it is the attachment to Right View that has to be relinquished. If you can be bothered, pls see 'Raft' in U.P. Happy to discuss further. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ... >He > seems to be indicating in this section, and giving suttic evidence to > show, that > complete awakening to reality requires a *total* relinquishment which > includes giving up all views entirely. ... S: Usually friends start quoting from the verses in the Sutta Nipata, but one has to understand that these are referring to wrong views. Ditthi (unless specified otherwise) usu. refers to wrong views. As Nina mentioned to Andrew, right view is panna. It continues to be developed, not relinquished until parinibbana..... .... >I find that position to be > interesting, though > of more theoretical interest and less pragmatic interest than Ven T > seems to > think. Right View begins as conceptual right view, and it is > pragmatically > necessary to point one in the right direction - to properly orient the > mind. As > there is progress, however, Right View evolves into wisdom, and wisdom > leads to > uprooting and relinquishment. ... S: Exactly - to uprooting and relinquishment of the defilements. I'm glad to read all your posts and RobM's to KenH - useful discussions. Metta, Sarah ===== 34947 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: very disturbing sutta Dear Antony, You’ve been giving excellent sutta quotes- especially the ones from MN2. I always appreciate the reminders about ‘the things unfit for attention’ as leading to unarisen taints. It was a reminder for me this morning when I was dwelling on a sleepless night of coughing. As soon as there was a little wise attention, the story dropped, no more ‘poor me’ and I immediately felt better;-). --- Antony Woods wrote: > Thanks for the birthday gift analogy. Gratitude is very helpful in > overcoming dosa (anxiety, guilt, worry and depression) .... S: I’m not sure how far we can take the analogy, but perhaps we can consider each presently arising nama or rupa as a ‘gift’ to be known right now. Past gifts have gone and future ones not yet arisen. ... > For a Dhamma friend's birthday I sent him a copy of "Great > Disciples of Buddha" with the message: > "Your birthday celebrates your precious human birth in the > Buddha's dispensation" .... S: I think Nina has also commented on this wonderful gift and fine message. The Great Disciples are such an inspiration when it comes to knowing present ‘gifts’. And we can see that when there is kusala - whether it is metta or dana or other help for others or wise attention at any level, there is no thought of oneself or ‘what will become to me’ or ‘my’ uncertain rebirth with fear and anxiety. Most of our difficulties in life relate to the attachment to oneself. Self view can creep in too, I find, as Rob was suggesting. Let’s appreciate the opportunities we have now and help others do the same! Metta and look forward to more of your posts with great quotes. Sometimes the suttas we find most disturbing initially are the ones we learn most from, I find. Sarah p.s any example in ‘Great Disciples’ you find particularly inspiring? ================= 34948 From: jjnbdal Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: For those going on the India Pilgrimage in 16/31 October 2004 Dear Sarah: Thank you for your message. Good to see you. Hope you and Jon are well. I was buried with work for a while. Now, I am using DSG as a therapy. :-) I'm still in Singapore, same company. I change my email because my company's mail server is not as reliable as yahoo mail which now gives me enough space. Now I am going to stick to this account. Sorry for confusion. India? Slim chance. Ell kept two seats (one for my father) for me, but I was not going, and the two seats are gone. Now she is still trying to encourage me to go. Still thinking. Best Regards from Singapore, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Christine & Jaran, > > Chris, thanks so much for the links - I especially appreciated the map of > India in the Buddha's time.....and started the article on archaeology. > > Also the article on the Burmese monk and his recitals - fascinating. > > Jaran, good to see you around -- Have you changed company? Are you still > in Singapore?-- Do hope you can join India - I always enjoy your lively > contributions and help to everyone. Someone is bound to drop out - it > could be any of us. We hope to be in Bkk on Sat 28th Aug (with some use > them or lose them air mile points). Perhaps we can try to help then. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 34949 From: mattroke Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: Baby and Bathwater Dear Rob M > Sorry if I gave the impression that I was looking for a compromise. > I am looking for reconcillation. I am hoping that as we study the > Dhamma more closely we can understand the Dhamma better and thereby > realize that both perspectives can be correct. I am reminded of a > Zen story: > Monk 1: The Buddha taught about rebirth, so it is important that we > understand rebirth. > Abbot: That is correct. > Monk 2: The Buddha taught us to be aware of the present moment, so > there is no need to understand rebirth. > Abbot: That is correct. > Monk 1 & Monk 2: We can't both be correct!!! > Abbot: That is also correct. The Abbot's final reply was cute, but he would have helped the monks more if he had told them that both could be wrong. He should have told the first monk that the Buddha taught us that we should not believe anything just because a sage has said it, but we should only embrace that which we experience and know to be true. And to the second monk he should have told him that there is no self, so there is no one who can be aware of the present moment. When there is more study and better understanding of the Dhamma then there is the realization that perspectives and concepts about them can be a hindrance to the arising of wisdom that knows the moment that creates them. > The point here is that Monk 1 and Monk 2 are both correct for their > own development. The eightfold noble path has many variations and > each are correct for that traveller. There is only one eight-fold noble path and there are no variations of it. There are however countless wrong paths that one can follow before coming across the eight-fold path. Just because a person has intention to follow the eight-fold path does not mean they are on it. How many people in life have got lost following the wrong paths when they truly believed it was taking them in the right direction? Regards Matt R 34950 From: Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/28/04 10:51:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------------- > . . . > H> I think we ought to stop with some of that questioning and just > look and see! > -------------------- > > Do you mean, "Just practise satipatthana?" If so, I agree. > > Satipatthana is not a form of questioning, and so, if questioning > immediately precedes it, it will amount to a stopping of > questioning. But there is no need for any prior stopping: > ultimately, questioning is a dhamma and so it can be known with > right understanding. > > ----------------------- > H: >There just is no self anywhere to be seen at all! > ----------------------- > > So I understand. But I do not know it from my own direct experience. > I know it indirectly by studying the Dhamma. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Surely you must know it to at least some extent directly. But if not, then just keep on looking at what you *do* seem to see. --------------------------------------------- > > --------------------- > H: >When we feel a sense of self, and we look at that, all there is > is that passing "feeling". > ---------------------- > > As you know, this is where I start looking askance. :-) Is Howard > recommending some sort of pseudo-satipatthana? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you are talking about. There's nothing "pseudo" about it. Sabbe dhamma anatta - all phenomena are impersonal, and careful looking reveals that. ------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > H: >When there are what we might call I-oriented thoughts, > incuding self-oriented emotions, and we look at them, all there are > are those thoughts and emotions. Thoughts and feelings of conceit, > jealousy, > > Best, I think if we repeat less often the principle "There is no > self" as Buddhist catechism, and busy ourselves more with looking - > carefully, intently, and with clarity - at what there actually is to > be seen. > Then we will come to know, wordlessly and without doubt, what is > what. > ----------------------- > > If that was meant as an intellectual description of satipatthana, > then it would be fine, thank you. However, I think you are > advocating a ritualistic (formal) practice. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Again I don't know what you are talking about. I'm advocating attending to whatever arises with the intention seeing with as much clarity as possible. -------------------------------------------- > > Dhammas come and go in an instant and they can be experienced only > by other dhammas. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: So what? You are setting up a smokescreen of words to provide a reason for not following the Buddha's instructions, but, instead, just reading about paramattha dhammas. Attention is not a (passing) characteristic of a "person"; it is just a passing, impersonal operation. Agreed. So what? Attention is still for the good, and, to speak conventionally - YOU CAN PAY ATTENTION. ------------------------------------------------ If there is no sati and no panna amongst those > > experiencing dhammas then there is no knowledge of dhammas: There is > only knowledge of concept, which is no knowledge at all really - > just a part of the concept. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: You've got that right! And, as the song lyric goes: "Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever will!" ----------------------------------------------- > > Not only would your ritual fail to reveal dhammas and the > characteristics of dhammas it would also deny the difference between > concepts and dhammas. That is not something I want to do. Sorry to > sound unappreciative. :-) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, I don't understand what you are afraid of. It seems to me that you are using scare words like "ritual" and concepts in general as a protective shield. If you won't even look at the shadows on the cave wall, what is the likelihood of your coming to turn around and see the light outside? ----------------------------------------- > > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34951 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions re kamma/kusala Thank you Sarah for this reply. Thank you also to Nina for your replies. Kind Regards Herman 34952 From: Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/29/04 7:04:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > I just reread part 4 of Ven Thanissaro's article "The Not-Self > >Strategy". In this section he seems to recognize Right View as a part of > >the well > >known raft of the Buddha's that must be put down on reaching the far > >shore. > ... > S: I think it should be emphasised that it is the attachment to Right View > that has to be relinquished. If you can be bothered, pls see 'Raft' in > U.P. Happy to discuss further. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > ============================= The attachment to right view *has* to be relinquished, but the view itself will also go. A child may have the belief that fire wil burn her/him, because mommy and daddy said so. But once burned, the belief is gone, for now the child *knows*. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34953 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: Baby and Bathwater Hi Matt (and Ken H), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mattroke" wrote: > > Sorry if I gave the impression that I was looking for a compromise. > > I am looking for reconcillation. I am hoping that as we study the > > Dhamma more closely we can understand the Dhamma better and > thereby > > realize that both perspectives can be correct. I am reminded of a > > Zen story: > > Monk 1: The Buddha taught about rebirth, so it is important that we > > understand rebirth. > > Abbot: That is correct. > > Monk 2: The Buddha taught us to be aware of the present moment, > so > > there is no need to understand rebirth. > > Abbot: That is correct. > > Monk 1 & Monk 2: We can't both be correct!!! > > Abbot: That is also correct. > > The Abbot's final reply was cute, but he would have helped the monks > more if he had told them that both could be wrong. He should have told > the first monk that the Buddha taught us that we should not believe > anything just because a sage has said it, but we should only embrace > that which we experience and know to be true. And to the second monk > he should have told him that there is no self, so there is no one who can > be aware of the present moment. > > When there is more study and better understanding of the Dhamma > then there is the realization that perspectives and concepts about them > can be a hindrance to the arising of wisdom that knows the moment that > creates them. > ===== Words and concepts are one kind of bridge to one level of understanding. On the Path, when you reach each such level, you leave each bridge behind. But you can't leave your bridge behind until you are beyond it. ===== > > The point here is that Monk 1 and Monk 2 are both correct for their > > own development. The eightfold noble path has many variations and > > each are correct for that traveller. > > There is only one eight-fold noble path and there are no variations of it. > There are however countless wrong paths that one can follow before > coming across the eight-fold path. Just because a person has intention > to follow the eight-fold path does not mean they are on it. How many > people in life have got lost following the wrong paths when they truly > believed it was taking them in the right direction? ===== "Variations" was a poor choice of words. You are absolutely correct that there is only one eightfold path. However, the Buddha delivered 10,000 Suttas (rough number) because different people with different accumulations at different stages of development require different types of prodding to move forward. This is how I believe the "meditator" vs. "anti-meditator" positions can be reconciled. In brief my position is as follows: - I am not suggesting that Ken H should sit cross-legged - Ken H is correct in warning me of the possible dangers of the wrong concept of meditation - Ken H should not suggest that I give up sitting cross-legged Metta, Rob M :-) 34954 From: jjnbdal Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala and akusala and bits and pieces from dhamma on weekend Dear Nina: > .... internet boardcast of dhamma discussion from the foundation... > N: This is great. Can you share with us just one question you send in and > the answer, if you have time? Eager for some crumbs! There are more interesting questions from the audience than mine. The one that comes to mind right now: Q: Since satipatthana is so personal--only that person will know if it is satipatthana or not, and one cannot ask others whether it is or not, then how do we know that our understanding is progressing to such direction of experiencing dhamma directly (ie satipatthana)? A: One cannot ask if it is satipatthana or not, but one can ask so that one has better understanding of dhamma, in all levels. Now Nina, I ask you the same question. How do we know, along the way, prior to the first moment of satipatthana that our understanding are progressing in the right direction? What are the indicators? Best Regards, jaran 34955 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:05am Subject: what I heard Dear friends, I want to share a little what I heard today. A. Sujin said:< We should not hope for the arising of stages of insight, then we are clinging to an idea of self. But when a stage of vipassana arises it shows that it is anatta, we cannot chose it. We cannot chose which nama or rupa is penetrated by insight at such moments. Lobha clings, but pañña detaches. The development of pañña is detachment all the way. It is very common that lobha is already attached to what appears now, and then there is no awareness. We do not know yet the truth of seeing, it is "us" who is seeing. Wrong view, ditthi, takes all realities for self, it arises with lobha. Ditthi has to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. We can say very easily: this is nama, this is rupa. But when realities actually appear we do not know them as nama or as rupa. We should know the characteristic of nama as an element that knows or experiences. What arises now has a characteristic and we do not have to name it. The arising of sati depends on listening. When it arises one can develop understanding oneself.> A. Sujin also said that we are angry more often with ourselves than with others. We think with aversion: "Why are we like this?" Lodewijk remarked that conceit conditions such thoughts. We think of ourselves wanting to be better. Just a few thoughts, Nina. 34956 From: Daniel Salinero Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:01am Subject: RE: [dsg] Introductions...from California Dear Andrew and Sarah, Thank you for the welcome! Re your friends in northern California that are a part of this discussion group, I live in southern California now (Indio...near Palm Springs) but was raised in Northern California when I was a boy, in San Leandro. I do go to the San Francisco area once a year to visit family. I would love to meet them someday. Re BKK, I taught at the New International School of Thailand (Sukhumvit Rd., soi 19). I also taught in Bang Plee at the Thai Chinese International School (Bang Na Trad, km. 13). In Bang Plee they have a very beautiful wat that I used to live near ...Wat Luang Pu To. They have some nice photos at http://www.paknam.com/bangplee.html This name is common to many temples in Thailand but this one is fairly famous and is special to me. Coming back to the States took some adjustment but I am more than back in the swing of things. Re my practice, I do miss the opportunities I had while in Thailand although there are many opportunities of a different sort for practice here. Not many places in the world that I'm familiar with have so many groups, temples, and centers representing all Buddhist traditions as I find here. Unfortunately, most are not near my home! I miss having a Thai temple close by and access to regular Dhamma talks or an insight meditation center. There are many in California, of course, but they are just far enough away that make it very impractical to visit on a regular basis, except for an occasional retreat...they might as well as be in a different country. I was associated with a local Zen center for a while just to be with Dhamma friends, but it really wasn't what I was looking for. That's why I am very grateful to have found this group. I have a daily sitting and walking practice. I also enjoy reading and studying the Dhamma. From the posts I have read so far, there is still so much I don't understand even on an intellectual level that I really appreciate the discussions I've read. I find myself reviewing the messages daily otherwise I get inundated since there are so many. I enjoy seeing the Dhamma discussed in a language I completely understand since, while I spoke Thai well enogh to understand the monks when they gave talks, I missed so much of the nuances that I'm sure were spoken. Yours in the Dhamma, Daniel ´Òà1ÕÂÅ -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@y...] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:59 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Introductions...from California Hi Daniel,, I'd like to second Andrew and thank you for a very neat intro. 34957 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:16pm Subject: Re: what I heard Hey Nina, N> I want to share a little what I heard today. A. Sujin said:< We should not hope for the arising of stages of insight, then we are clinging to an idea of self. But when a stage of vipassana arises it shows that it is anatta, we cannot chose it. We cannot chose which nama or rupa is penetrated by insight at such moments. E: Sounds right. The wise don't choose. >Lobha clings, but pañña detaches. The development of pañña is detachment all the way. E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? >It is very common that lobha is already attached to what appears now, and then there is no awareness. We do not know yet the truth of seeing, it is "us" who is seeing. Wrong view, ditthi, takes all realities for self, it arises with lobha. Ditthi has to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. E: This seems to be easier said than done. Again, any tips for the eradication? >We can say very easily: this is nama, this is rupa. But when realities actually appear we do not know them as nama or as rupa. We should know the characteristic of nama as an element that knows or experiences. What arises now has a characteristic and we do not have to name it. The arising of sati depends on listening. E: Only listening? This is not clear here. > When it arises one can develop understanding oneself.> A. Sujin also said that we are angry more often with ourselves than with others. We think with aversion: "Why are we like this?" Lodewijk remarked that conceit conditions such thoughts. We think of ourselves wanting to be better. Just a few thoughts, Nina. Thanks for the thoughts Nina. PEACE E 34958 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:29pm Subject: Re: what I heard Hello Nina, Thanks for these reminders. I have been thinking a lot about Mana (conceit) lately. It arose from my being a little incensed at seeing so much of it on dsg - other people utterly certain that 'their' way was the right way to 'practice' and derisively alluding to others. Such righteous anger! Then I realised what 'I' was doing .... It will be good to see Tan Achan Sujin in October. Always back to the essentials. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, > I want to share a little what I heard today. > A. Sujin said:< We should not hope for the arising of stages of insight, > then we are clinging to an idea of self. But when a stage of vipassana > arises it shows that it is anatta, we cannot chose it. We cannot chose which > nama or rupa is penetrated by insight at such moments. Lobha clings, but > pañña detaches. The development of pañña is detachment all the way. It is > very common that lobha is already attached to what appears now, and then > there is no awareness. We do not know yet the truth of seeing, it is "us" > who is seeing. Wrong view, ditthi, takes all realities for self, it arises > with lobha. Ditthi has to be eradicated before other defilements can be > eradicated. > We can say very easily: this is nama, this is rupa. But when realities > actually appear we do not know them as nama or as rupa. We should know the > characteristic of nama as an element that knows or experiences. What arises > now has a characteristic and we do not have to name it. The arising of sati > depends on listening. When it arises one can develop understanding oneself.> > A. Sujin also said that we are angry more often with ourselves than with > others. We think with aversion: "Why are we like this?" Lodewijk remarked > that conceit conditions such thoughts. We think of ourselves wanting to be > better. > Just a few thoughts, > Nina. 34959 From: connieparker Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: Questions re kamma/kusala >> >> My questions are with reference to the following excerpt from A.i.263: >> >> "Monks! There are three root causes of kamma. What are the three? They >> are greed ... hatred ... delusion ... >> "Whatever kamma is performed out of greed ... hatred ... delusion, is >> born from greed ... hatred ... delusion, has greed ... hatred ... >> delusion as its root and as its cause, that kamma is unskillful, that >> kamma is harmful, that kamma has suffering as a result, that kamma >> brings about the creation of more kamma, not the cessation of kamma. >> "Monks! There are these three root causes of kamma. What are the three? >> They are non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion ... >> "Whatever kamma is performed out of non-greed ... non-hatred ... >> non-delusion, is born of non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion, has >> non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion as its root and its cause, >> that kamma is skillful, that kamma is not harmful, that kamma has >> happiness as a result, that kamma brings about the cessation of kamma, >> not the creation of more kamma ..." >> ================================= >> What is the name(s) of the sutta this is taken from? > .... > S: PTS gives ‘Three Causes’, and gives a footnote for ‘Causes’ as > ‘Nidaanaani=kaara.naani. Comy (which accumulate actions leading to the > round of rebirth). > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/index.html > gives: > 9. Pañhamanidhà nasuttaü - First on the origination of actions. > (The Pali can also be found here - Bk of 3s, chX1, 3.3.1.9 - I think!) > ..... > When I asked B.Bodhi about discrepancies in titles of suttas, esp. in AN, > he said that they are only given by the translators, hence no ‘right’ or > ‘wrong’. > ..... Hi Herman, Just in case you want the Pali. peace, connie - CSCD on-line version: www.tipitaka.org\tipitaka\s0402m2\s0402m2-frm.html AN Ch. (11) 1 Sambodhavaggo Section 8: 9. Pa.thamanidaanasuttu.m 112. “Tii.nimaani, bhikkhave, nidaanaani kammaana.m samudayaaya. Katamaani tii.ni? Lobho nidaana.m kammaana.m samudayaaya, doso nidaana.m kammaana.m samudayaaya, moho nidaana.m kammaana.m samudayaaya. Ya.m, bhikkhave, lobhapakata.m kamma.m lobhaja.m lobhanidaana.m lobhasamudaya.m, ta.m kamma.m akusala.m ta.m kamma.m saavajja.m ta.m kamma.m dukkhavipaaka.m, ta.m kamma.m kammasamudayaaya sa.mvattati, na ta.m kamma.m kammanirodhaaya sa.mvattati. Ya.m, bhikkhave, dosapakata.m kamma.m dosaja.m dosanidaana.m dosasamudaya.m, ta.m kamma.m akusala.m ta.m kamma.m saavajja.m ta.m kamma.m dukkhavipaaka.m, ta.m kamma.m kammasamudayaaya sa.mvattati, na ta.m kamma.m kammanirodhaaya sa.mvattati. Ya.m, bhikkhave, mohapakata.m kamma.m mohaja.m mohanidaana.m mohasamudaya.m, ta.m kamma.m akusala.m ta.m kamma.m saavajja.m ta.m kamma.m dukkhavipaaka.m, ta.m kamma.m kammasamudayaaya sa.mvattati, na ta.m kamma.m kammanirodhaaya sa.mvattati. Imaani kho, bhikkhave, tii.ni nidaanaani kammaana.m samudayaaya. “Tii.nimaani, bhikkhave, nidaanaani kammaana.m samudayaaya. Katamaani tii.ni? Alobho nidaana.m kammaana.m samudayaaya, adoso nidaana.m kammaana.m samudayaaya, amoho nidaana.m kammaana.m samudayaaya. Ya.m, bhikkhave, alobhapakata.m kamma.m alobhaja.m alobhanidaana.m alobhasamudaya.m, ta.m kamma.m kusala.m ta.m kamma.m anavajja.m ta.m kamma.m sukhavipaaka.m, ta.m kamma.m kammanirodhaaya sa.mvattati, na ta.m kamma.m kammasamudayaaya sa.mvattati. Ya.m, bhikkhave, adosapakata.m kamma.m adosaja.m adosanidaana.m adosasamudaya.m, ta.m kamma.m kusala.m ta.m kamma.m anavajja.m ta.m kamma.m sukhavipaaka.m, ta.m kamma.m kammanirodhaaya sa.mvattati, na ta.m kamma.m kammasamudayaaya sa.mvattati. Ya.m, bhikkhave, amohapakata.m kamma.m amohaja.m amohanidaana.m amohasamudaya.m, ta.m kamma.m kusala.m ta.m kamma.m anavajja.m ta.m kamma.m sukhavipaaka.m, ta.m kamma.m kammanirodhaaya sa.mvattati, na ta.m kamma.m kammasamudayaaya sa.mvattati. Imaani kho, bhikkhave, tii.ni nidaanaani kammaana.m samudayaayaaâ€?ti. Navama.m. > H:> What are the original Pali words translated here as delusion, harmful >> and happiness? > ..... > S: delusion = moha > harmful = saavajja (blamable, what is censurable) > happiness = sukha vipaaka > ... > H: > Is it accurate to say, based on this sutta, that a sine qua non of >> kusala kamma is that it brings about the cessation of kamma ie all four >> criteria must be met before an act is classified as kusala? (if one was >> classifying, that is :-)) > ... > S: I think by the 4 criteria, you are referring to: >> that kamma is skillful, that kamma is not harmful, that kamma has >> happiness as a result, that kamma brings about the cessation of kamma, >> not the creation of more kamma ..." > > Hmmm, good question. The www.metta.lk translation gives > ‘It brings pleasant results and conduces to cessation of actions, not to > the arising of more actions’. > > I think ‘conduces to...’ is better. Kusala kamma is a supporting > condition > rather than the cause of the end of rebirths. > The PTS translation also gives, with regard to kusala kamma that ‘it is > praiseworthy, it has happiness for its result, it conduces to the ending > of (further) action, not to the arising thereof.’ > > In the latter case, the translator also stresses that the kusala kamma > being referred to are the causes of preventing/ending the*unskilful* > actions referred to in the first part of the sutta and perhaps this is > how > the last line should be read. I believe 'nirodhaaya' is the opposite of > 'samudayaaya'. > > “Absence of lust, absence of malice, absence of delusion are the causes > [footnote: ‘Not really causes, but prohibitive of action’] (which prevent > the arising) of actions. > > An action done without lust, not born of lust, not caused by lust, not > originated by lust (malice....delusion), it is praiseworthy, it has > happiness for its result, it conduces to the ending of (further) action, > not to the arising thereof.â€?* > 34960 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Precepts and Mouse Tales Hi Christine, A nice story, and thanks for telling it :-) What with these new-fangled automobiles, with their hard surfaces and high speed (faster than a woman can run, I'm told), I wonder how many creatures lost their lives against your bonnet as you drove to save the mouse? Next thing you know you'll be glueing soft, shock-absorbent foam to your car in an effort to spare the insects :-) I wonder if harmlessness and petrol-engined automobiles have a future together? With tongue firmly in cheek Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Thursday, 29 July 2004 6:49 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Precepts and Mouse Tales Hello all, I have been catching a few field mice in the non-harming trap - but has anyone ever noticed that they never tell you what to do with the cute little fellas once you've got them holding the bars of the cage with their tiny little paws, and quivering their tiny pink noses and whiskers at you. I couldn't take him down the back of the property, because a snake or bird might eat him, the frosts have started, and anyway, he'd probably walk straight back. I started out in the car, thinking I could drop the latest one off at the SDA church up the road (with the cane toads). But I realized there was no water there and the grass was too short to hide in. So I drove further on. I came to where the creek wends backwards and forward across the road, but the Shire Council had mown the footpaths and there were Butcher birds on the telegraph wires. So I drove further on. I passed the hospital, but remembered the cats that live in the carpark. So I drove further on. I came to the horse stud, but, being winter the grass is non-existent, and I couldn't stop anyway because of speeding traffic. So I drove further on. I came to the Freeway and drove thirty kilometres to where my daughter is living. I said 'We have a problem'. She said, 'Oh look at the cute little darling'. So we had a cup of tea, and looked. The cute little fella started gnawing the bars. Unreasonably, my daughter wouldn't let me release it behind her garage, where there was some grass cover. Eventually, we realised there was only one thing to do. We cut the lid of an old shoe box in half. We drove the mouse to the local park where there was a creek, bar-b-que areas and bins, lots of reed beds, long grass, and a Re-aforestation area. We found a fallen tree, next to it we half buried the shoe box lid, covered it with leaves, dirt and grass, and a suitable size small log, placed the little one's food and a mouse sized water container in the shoe box lid, released the mouse, who ran straight into the shelter, wished him the best of luck and left. We both were a bit teary. After all, he was now so far from home. Tonight - I found another little fella in the trap. I 'accidentally' bumped it, he wiggled out and ran under the washing machine. (sigh) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34961 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita, > ....... > >and what is CMA.????? > ... > You mean you didn't read my post to James a day or two before (26th)? Just > kidding. I wrote: > Yes, I did read that post but only after I had sent the one to you and there's no retrieving a sent post (-: ... > I'm sure you'd find it very useful too, especially if you don't have any > of the other translations of Ab.Sangaha. I like this one best and BB's > notes compiled from various sources are mostly very helpful, though there > are some we'd take issue with. A couple I've had some correspondence with > him on. Some great charts contributed by U Silanananda too. > ............. > Metta, > > Sarah Sounds like good reading. Will contact you off list. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 34962 From: Antony Woods Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:13pm Subject: "Great Disciples" donation offer plus links Dear Sarah and all, "Great Disciples of the Buddha" by Ven Nyanaponika and Hellmuth Hecker edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi I highly recommend this book for Recollection of Ariya Sangha (Sanghanussati) Here is my favorite paragraph: Ananda's Renown p143: "In view of this abundance of praise, honor, and recognition, mutterings of envy and resentment against Ananda could have been expected, but this was not the case at all, for Ananda was a man without enemies......Ananda had subordinated his life to the Dhamma so completely that fame could not touch him and make him proud. He knew that all that was good in him was due to the influence of the Teaching, and with such an attitude there was no scope in his mind for pride and complacency. One who is not proud has no enemies, and such a one does not meet with envy. if someone turns completely inward and shuns social contact, as Ananda's half-brother Anuruddha did, then it is easy to be without enemies. But Ananda, the intermediary between the Buddha and his many devotees, constantly exposed himself to the malice and resentment of the captious-minded. Thus the sheer fact that he lived without enemies, without rivals, without conflict and tension, borders on a miracle. This quality is truly a measure of Ananda's uniqueness." I have written to Wisdom Publications in USA (http://www.wisdompubs.org) and they indicated that they haven't printed more than 10,000 copies so far which is disappointing. I wish to donate the book to individuals and Buddhist Libraries throughout the world on request, especially in Asia where affordability is a problem and the BPS in Sri Lanka is then the publisher so postage is cheaper. I have arranged a donation to a library in India and one in Malaysia and one each to a Dhamma friends in the USA and Australia so far. Sarah and all, could you allow me make some merit by sending you a copy? Contact me offlist at antony272b at at hotmail.com (at at=@) if you are interested in a free copy. Much of this material is online: Life of Sariputta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html Life of Maha-Moggallana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html Buddhist Women at the time of the Buddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel292.html Maha Kaccana - Master of Doctrinal Exposition http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel405.html Maha Kassapa - Father of the Sangha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel345.html metta / Antony 34963 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:34pm Subject: Re: Baby and Bathwater Hi Ken H, Part II of reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ------------------ > RM: > My opinion is that formal meditation without self-view is > orders of magnitude better than formal meditation that often (but > not always) includes self-view. I also believe that formal > meditation that often (but not always) includes self-view is better > than no formal meditation. In other words, I am afraid that by > rejecting formal meditation you are "throwing out the baby with the > bathwater". > -------------------- > > So, Rob, in all seriousness, which paramattha dhamma is `formal > meditation?' In one sense, it is a concept (as distinct from a > dhamma) but what is the citta (or the `All,' the loka) when, > conventionally speaking, there is formal meditation? > > Whatever it is, it is not satipatthana. And satipatthana is what the > Buddha taught. Why then, would we be practising formal meditation? ===== Just as dana is a complex sequence of cittas and citta-born rupas (body intimation) when viewed at the paramattha dhamma level, so too "formal meditation" is a different sequence of cittas and citta- born rupas (body intimation) when viewed at the paramattha dhamma level. In the case of dana, many of the cittas involved have alobha as a predominant cetasika. In the case of "formal meditation" of the vipassana type, the predominant cetasika could be sati, ekaggata, manasikara, panna or others. In the case of "formal meditation" of the samattha type, the prominent cetasika will depend on the object (brahamavihara, kasina, etc.). In the second part of the Satipatthana sutta, the Buddha talked about being aware of postures such as walking. Is "walking" not a concept? The paramattha dhammas in walking are again the citta and citta-born rupas (body intimation); same as dana and "formal meditation". So we see that even in the Satipatthana sutta, the Buddha never advised us to only be aware of paramattha dhammas. ===== > > Given the three options above, is it 1, because satipatthana is too > hard and we have decided to do something easy instead? Or is it 2, > because satipatthana is too hard and so we are professing that > this `counterfeit satipatthana' is what the Buddha really taught? Or > is it 3, . . . . Well, no, it couldn't be three – when there is > right understanding (that satipatthana is too hard) there is no > formal meditation. ===== If I want to train myself to be an Olympic-level skiier and I am at "ground zero", I start by developing my technique on bunny hills. Once I have the basics sort-of-mastered, I move on to more challenging hills and new skills. It is a progressive process. Olympic-level skiing is very difficult, but I build up to it. In this life, I will build on my basic formal meditation skills. The habits acquired in this life will make this stage of the learning faster in subsequent lifetimes. It is a progressive process. Satipatthana is very difficult, but I build up to it. ===== > > -------------------- > RM: > I believe that you have written in the past that the Buddha > did not support formal meditation. This confuses me. There are > dozens of Suttas which mention jhanas but not one that mentions > Einstein's theory of relativity or Darwin's Theory of Evolution. > This is because > ----------------------- > > I will stop you there, Rob, because I'm not sure we are talking > about the same thing. Jhana is not formal meditation. Jhana > meditators are a holy-men (and women): born tihetuka (with all three > root conditions) they are exceptional individuals. Sitting straight- > backed at the base of a tree in a remote forest is their natural > inclination. There is no thought in them, "I will pretend to be > something I am not." ===== What is the difference between jhana and formal meditation? Are there any Suttas that state that attaining the first jhana requires renunciation? Metta, Rob M :-) 34964 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala citta with right view. Dear Andrew, op 29-07-2004 07:37 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > All this may be >> more understandable when we consider that kusala citta is only a > moment, and >> that the next moment may be akusala citta with wrong view. Akusala > citta is >> always rooted in ignorance, moha. > > Andrew: It is so hard to comprehend the speed of these conditioned > cittas and to see "ourselves" as a mixture of paramattha dhammas and > impermanent. N: Only developed insight can really understand the different characteristics of kusala and akusala. Pañña has to be very keen, and there should be no idea of self who wants to know or thinks that it can catch the cittas that succeed each other rapidly. It is already difficult enough for us to realize the difference between nama and rupa! By the way, at your next Cooran meeting, could you not tape the discussions? Otherwise it is gone with the wind. And in that way it is more easy to render afterwards. Nina. 34965 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala and akusala and bits and pieces from dhamma on weekend Dear Jaran Thank you. I love your question!! I try. op 29-07-2004 18:19 schreef jjnbdal op jjnbdal@y...: > Q: Since satipatthana is so personal--only that person will know if > it > is satipatthana or not, and one cannot ask others whether it is or > not, then how do we know that our understanding is progressing to > such direction of experiencing dhamma directly (ie satipatthana)? > > A: One cannot ask if it is satipatthana or not, but one can ask so > that one has better understanding of dhamma, in all levels. > > Now Nina, I ask you the same question. How do we know, along the way, > prior to the first moment of satipatthana that our understanding are > progressing in the right direction? What are the indicators? N: We keep on listening, hearing the same things about seeing and visible object over and over again, and in the course of years we find that whatever we hear becomes more and more meaningful. We are less and less inclined to ask ourselves: is this right, am I going into the right direction? Such questions become, by conditions, irrelevant. We know that it all takes time to develop understanding, even intellectual understanding. We do not even think in terms of the first moment of sammasati, right mindfulness of the eightfold Path, and when will it come. We realize that all such thinking is just lobha! Acharn is so right in saying: < one can ask so that one has better understanding of dhamma, in all levels.> Yes, also on the personal level, in our social life, our work, think of the brahmaviharas that can be applied all the time. Thus, we hear very often: everything is dhamma. At first these may seem mere words. But they are a reminder that seeing appears now, it is common to all of us. Visible object or colour appear now, it is common to all of us. We all have these dhammas, and let us have more understanding of them as not self. Do we understand dhamma now, Acharn repeats time and again. Our frustration, doubts? They are conditioned dhammas. We can notice that confidence grows, confidence that we are on the right track, even though sati and pañña are still very, very weak, but this does not matter. If it matters, what is there? Lobha! When confidence is stronger we worry less and less about being on the right track. Look, you must come to India. We should have more discussions. It is therapy for all of us. Let's add some favorable conditions by discussions now. Nina. 34966 From: nori Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:45am Subject: Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo - Noble Eightfold Path Hi Dhamma friends, I have compiled this summary of the eightfold path for myself from Pali using the PTS (Pali Text Society) dictionary translations for each word and using short excerpts from Gotama Buddha defining/describing each of the eightfold path from the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. Also in the section on Samma Sati (right mindfulness), I have compiled from several translations descriptions of the third and fourth frames of reference. I like to reflect on it every now & then even if I am familiar with it. I thought it would be useful for some of you. --- In his words from Maha Satipatthana Suttanta, Pali Text Society: 20. 'And what, bhikkus, is what is called the Aryan (Noble) Truth concerning the cessation of ill? The utter cessation of, and disenchantment about that very craving, giving it up, renouncing it, emancipation from it, detachment to it. But now this craving, bhikkus, where in being put away, is it put away; where in ceasing does it cease? In those material things of this world which are dear to us, which are pleasant - there may this craving be put away, there does it cease. ... and what, bhikkus, is the Aryan (Noble) Truth concerning the way that leads to the cessation of ill ? This is that Aryan (Noble) Eightfold Path, ..." ----- Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo Noble Eightfold Path Samma Ditthi - Samma2 (p. 695) (indecl.) [Vedic samyac (=samyak) & samis "connected, in one"; see under san] thoroughly, properly, rightly; in the right way, as it ought to be, best, perfectly Ditthi (p. 321) (f.) [Sk. drsti; cp. dassana] view, belief, dogma, theory ('free from speculation' - from PTS commentary) D.ii.312 21. "...And what, bhikkus, is right view ? Knowledge, bhikkus, about ill, knowledge about the coming to be of ill, knowledge about the way that leads to the cessation of ill. This is what is called right view." --- Samma Sankappa - Sankappa (p. 662) [san+klp, cp. kappeti fig. meaning] thought, intention, purpose, plan D.ii.312 21 "... And what, bhikkus, is right aspiration (intention) ? The aspiration towards renunciation, the aspiration towards benevolence, the aspiration towards kindness. This is what is called right aspiration." --- Samma Vaca - Vaca (p. 607) (f.) [vac, vakti & vivakti; cp. vacah (P. vaco); Vedic vak (vac¡ã) voice, word, vakya D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right speech ? Abstaining from lying, slander, abuse and idle (vain) talk. This is what is called right speech." --- Samma Kammanta - Kammanta (p. 194) [Sk. karmanta; kamma+anta, cp. anta 14.] 1. doing, acting D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right doing ? Abstaining from taking life, from taking what is not given, from carnal indulgence. This is what is called right doing." --- Samma Ajiva - Ājiva (p. 97) [a + jiva; Sk. ajiva] livelihood, mode of living, living, subsistence D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right livelihood ? Herein, O bhikkus, the Aryan (Noble) disciple having put away wrong livelihood, supports himself by right livelihood." (i.e. 'harmless' ¨C from PTS commentary) --- Samma Vayama - Vayama (p. 609) [fr. vi+a+yam] striving, effort, exertion, endeavour D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right effort ? Herein, O bhikkus, a brother makes effort in bringing forth will that evil (i.e. unskillful) and bad states that have not arisen within him may not arise, to that end he stirs up energy, he grips and forces the mind. That he may put away evil and bad states that have arisen within him he puts forth will, he makes effort, he stirs up energy, he grips and forces his mind. That good states that have arisen may persist, may not grow blurred, may multiply, grow abundant, develop and come to perfection, he puts forth will, he makes effort, he stirs up energy, he grips and forces the mind. This is what is called right effort.¡± (also known as Fourfold Great Struggle) --- Samma Sati - Sati (p. 672) (f.) [Vedic smrti: see etym. under sarati2] memory, recognition, consciousness, D I.180; II.292; Miln 77--80; intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, self--possession, conscience, self¡ª consciousness D.ii.312 21 ¡°And what, bhikkus, is right mindfulness? Herein, O bhikkus, let a brother, as to the body, continue so to look upon the..." 1) "body (in regards to: the motion of breath, on how it is disposed/spatial position, with clear comprehension of what it is doing, its constitution in regards to its organs/parts and its fundamentals - the four elements, its fate in regards to its decomposition/mortality) "... that he remains ardent, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and dejection common in the world." "And in the same way as to ..." 2) "feelings/sensations (with regard to whether it is pleasant, painful, neither pleasant or painful feeling),..." 3) "mind/mental-condition/consciousness (regarding whether there is present craving/lust/passion or no-..., aversion/hate or no-..., dull/ignorant/delusion or intelligent/not-ignorant/free-from- delusion, attentive/concentrated/collected or distrait/scattered, expanded/exalted/become-great/enlarged or unexpanded/not-exalted/not- become-great/not-enlarged, ideal/unsurpassed or mediocre/not- ideal/surpassed, composed/quieted or discomposed, liberated/free or bound/not-free) and ..." 4) "ideas/mental-contents/mental-objects (with regard to the five hindrances. i.e. sensuous-desire/craving, ill-will/aversion, sloth and torpor, flurry and worry, doubt) ¡¡...¡± (Notes in parentheses are personal notes; multiple words are compiled from several different translations; translations seem to differ and become vague when it comes to the third and fourth frames of reference - regarding the mind, its condition, characteristics and contents£»also some of the characteristics cross into both categories ¨C would appreciate any clarification. ) (Note: below replace ¡®...¡¯ with one of the four frames of reference described above) D.ii.291 2. ¡°...So does he as to the ..., continue to consider the ..., either internally or externally (i.e. on others outside of him), or both internally and externally. He keeps on considering how the ... is something that comes to be, or again he keeps on considering how the ... is something that passes away; or again he keeps on considering the coming to be with the passing away; or again, conscious that ¡®there is ...¡¯, mindfulness hereof becomes established, far enough for the purposes of knowledge and of self collectedness. ...¡± --- Samma Samahdi - Samadhi (p. 685) [fr. san+a+dha] 1. concentration; a concentrated, self--collected, intent state of mind and meditation, which, concomitant with right living, is a necessary condition to the attainment of higher wisdom and emancipation. D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right rapture/concentration ? Herein, O bhikkus, a brother aloof from sensuous appetities, aloof from evil ideas, enters into and abides in the first Jhana, wherein there is cogitation and deliberation, which is born of solitude and is full of joy and ease. Suppressing cogitation and deliberation, he enters into and abides in the second Jhana, which is self evoked, born of concentration, full of joy and ease ...¡± --- Also Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Eightfold path: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch2 With metta, nori 34967 From: nori Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:51am Subject: Suffering twice Hi Dhamma Friends, Craving for progress or emancipation from suffering, is after all, still a craving and is suffering. ... And this suffering and frustration is certainly not progress. I have found myself often, when suffering, suffering even more than people who have not read or practiced one word of Dhamma. I suffer twice, once from the original cause, and twice from my frustration and self punishment from not being rid of suffering, ... now how foolish is that. Now, I try only to have the intention of emancipation, without any craving. I just thought I'd mention that. Peace and metta, nori 34968 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:50am Subject: Re: Baby and Bathwater Hi Rob M (Sarah, Howard and Herman in the PS), You wrote: ------------- > Sorry if I gave the impression that I was looking for a compromise. I am looking for reconcillation. I am hoping that as we study the Dhamma more closely we can understand the Dhamma better and thereby realize that both perspectives can be correct. -------------------------- Sorry t have misunderstood. My feeling was that reconciliation would inevitably mean compromise (as in Andrew's 2 + 2 = 3.5). I will try harder to see your point of view. I was also referring to how Theravada Buddhism has been corrupted in recent times. Traditionally, the Dhamma was understood as a teaching (description) of the way things are. Now, according to popular opinion, it is a method for making things the way they aren't. At some [recent] stage, the modern idea of formalised vipassana meditation has crept into Theravada Buddhism. No doubt, misguided loyalty to one's teacher has perpetuated this anomaly – a student is reluctant to gainsay his teacher, and his students in turn, are reluctant to gainsay him. Formal practice has spread like wildfire; little refinements (like body scanning) being added here and there and quickly becoming part of the, so-called, Theravada tradition. (My version of events, anyway.) :-) There is no evidence for any of these practices in the ancient Theravada texts. The only possible links are a few words in the Satipatthana Sutta, which, when taken out of context, can be interpreted as formal vipassana meditation. Even here, the Ancient Commentaries make it clear, that interpretation cannot be sustained. Thanks to teachers like K. Sujin, the Commentaries are making a re- emergence onto the Buddhist scene. There are some red faces amongst meditation teachers, but that can't be helped. ------------------------ RM: > I am reminded of a Zen story: Monk 1 & Monk 2: We can't both be correct!!! Abbot: That is also correct." The point here is that Monk 1 and Monk 2 are both correct for their own development. The eightfold noble path has many variations and each are correct for that traveller. ------------------ I think I get your point, but I'm not sure I agree with it. After all, paramattha dhamma is the same for everyone. (Remember our slogan: "Visible object is what appears at the eye, nothing more and nothing less.") ---------------- RM: > I am not comfortable with your presentation of the Dhamma as a monolithic whole. My kid understands that good brings good and bad brings bad. Understanding comes in degrees. There is much benefit from partial understanding. Of course, complete understanding is only for Buddhas, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't constantly try to deepen our understanding. ---------------- I suppose `monolithic whole' does fit my preferred interpretation of the Dhamma; in that it is all `satipatthana.' Guilty as charged! :-) The `good brings good, bad brings bad understanding' we share with children is not (repeat NOT) the `good brings good, bad brings bad understanding' taught by the Buddha. As for `trying to deepen our understanding,' even there you are on dangerous ground: the right effort understood by ordinary mortals is not the right effort taught by the Buddha. --------------------- RM: > The action of dana is a complicated sequence of events involving cittas in which alobha is prevalent and corresponding citta-generated body intimation rupas. --------------------- I am dissatisfied with that explanation, Rob (and I am not just arguing for the sake of argument.) The dana that can be described as a "sequence of events" is not the dana that the Buddha taught. It is a concept. The Buddha used concepts by way of conventional designation, but he taught reality. In other words, he taught the five khandhas. When I ask you for the meaning of dana as taught by the Buddha, I am hoping you will describe a particular combination of citta, cetasikas and rupas that represents the five khandhas in a single moment of dana. The Buddha taught no other kind of dana. Sure, in the suttas he uses conventional designations for dana, and it might sound to some of us that he is teaching ordinary conventional practice. But the people who attained enlightenment by hearing those suttas understood dana at the paramattha (Abhidhamma) level. ------------------------- RM: > Food is a combination of the four great aggregates (all rupas) plus the four main derived rupas (visible object, flavour, smell and nutrition). Breaking things down to this level can help if we are observing the sense doors but, as Howard points out, leaving them at the conceptual level can also support an improved understanding of the Dhamma. --------------- Do you see guarding the sense doors as another formal practice? We `break things down to that level' so that we can understand (intellectually at first) paramattha dhammas. If we don't start with intellectual understanding, how is direct understanding (of dhammas at the six doors) ever going to happen? Not by sitting on a cushion, surely! --------------- RM: > Gotta fly, I will respond to the rest of your message soon. --------------- Looking forward to it. I hope my manner hasn't been too abrupt and argumentative – it wouldn't be for the first time. :-) Kind regards, Ken H PS After being away from my computer for twenty-four hours, I see you have posted Part II. Thank you. Herman and Howard; it looks like I have some fences to mend with you too. :-) I will start first thing in the morning. And yes, Sarah, that does mean, "surf permitting!" (Thanks for the tips – always open to work-saving suggestions.) :-) KH 34969 From: mattroke Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala and akusala and bits and pieces from dhamma on weekend Dear Jaran, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jjnbdal" wrote: > Q: Since satipatthana is so personal--only that person will know if > it is satipatthana or not, and one cannot ask others whether it is or > not, then how do we know that our understanding is progressing to > such direction of experiencing dhamma directly (ie satipatthana)? Rather than a person knows if it is satipatthana or not, is it not wisdom that has arisen and knows the moment? The moment with wisdom is different from the moment without wisdom, even if it is very fleeting and followed by much thinking and doubt. And such wisdom is an indicator that there is some Dhamma understanding. Regards, Matt R 34970 From: Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Baby and Bathwater Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/30/04 6:51:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Herman and Howard; it looks like I have some fences to mend with you > too. :-) I will start first thing in the morning. > ======================= I don't see why. If I've done any fence rending, I apologize for it, but with regard to our interactions, I have not read anything from *you* that I would view requiring mending. BTW, with regard to your statement "Traditionally, the Dhamma was understood as a teaching (description) of the way things are," in my opinion that statement, one with which, of course, Jon is in full agreement, expresses an idiosyncratic view, far from the mainstream understanding, and not easily deduced from the suttas. At the very least, it is fair to say, I believe, that the claim is neither obvious nor undebatable. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34971 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions re kamma/kusala Dear Connie, Thanks very much for the Pali, I shall print this out. Shall we do each another sutta for the Pali list, to inspire others to join in? Did I understand rightly that you are going to Cooran? Yong Peng did not tell me yet whether he could open my attachment. I said that in case of trouble I would go to you. For the Lamas in your group: when the person who rebinds my Visuddhimagga is ready I shall quote what the Dalai Lama said about the Vis. He highly praised it. As to the Guide: I have the Topics of Abh. which has the complete Co of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Without it I could not understand the Tiika of Vis. but I have to go all across it. One has to get used to it that they transl roots, hetus, as motivations and cetasikas as mentalities. With appreciation, Nina. op 30-07-2004 00:37 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: >>> "Monks! There are three root causes of kamma. What are the three? They >>> are greed ... hatred ... delusion ... 34972 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:01am Subject: Intro Vis. 91 and Tiika Intro Vis. 91 and Tiika The Visuddhimagga gives examples of the eight types of cittas rooted in attachment. The first type is associated with wrong view. A person may believe that there is no danger in sense desires and, being enslaved to them, he may indulge in many kinds of evil deeds. The text refers to the ³Middle Length Sayings² no 45, ³Lesser Discourse on the Ways of Undertaking Dhamma². The Buddha explains about the undertaking of dhamma that is happiness in the present but results in suffering in the future: The Buddha explains that they will have an unhappy rebirth. The Tiika mentions that someone who with a perverted mind indulges in sense pleasures rejects other worlds, that is, an unhappy rebirth in a next life as the result of his misbehaviour. The ³Dhammasanga.ni² (§ 381) shows the danger of wrong view (opinion): The Expositor (II, p. 336) explains that it is like jungle because of the difficulty of getting out of it. It is ³like a wilderness infested by thieves and wild beasts, of sand, waterless, without food.² It states that wrong view is the wrong path: The Tiika also mentions that a person who indulges in wrong conduct with wrong view takes this wrong path for the way leading to heaven and salvation. The Expositor (II, p. 331) states about wrong view : Because of wrong view we take all realities for self. The belief in a self gives rise to many other kinds of wrong view. So long as wrong view is not eradicated the other defilements cannot be eradicated. When the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotaapanna, is attained, wrong view is eradicated. For him the four types of akusala cittas rooted in attachment that are with wrong view do not arise any more. The Tiika mentions akusala kamma committed with attachment and wrong view, such as stealing, lying, or slandering. These are of different degrees and they may be less censurable or greatly censurable, depending on the virtue of the persons involved, or the value of the goods, such as in the case of stealing. The Expositor (p. 132) explains in the case of slandering: The Tiika mentions as wrong relief the stories of the fight of the Bhaaratas and the abduction of Siitaa. The Expositor (p. 133) explains this as an example of frivolous talk, and adds: < But the offence does not run through the full course of action when others do not accept the story; it does so only when they accept it.> Just as in the case of the kusala cittas, the akusala cittas rooted in attachment may be unprompted or prompted. The Co. to the ³Abhidhamattha Sangaha² (T.A. p. 15) explains unprompted as And it explains prompted as . It is useful to know that four types are accompanied by pleasant feeling and four types by indifferent feeling. When feeling is indifferent we may think that there is no attachment. We should know that attachment with indifferent feeling arises more often than we ever realize. Immediately after seeing attachment is bound to arise, but when it is accompanied by indifferent feeling we do not notice it. All classifications of dhammas can remind us to develop understanding of the reality that appears at this moment. **** Nina. 34973 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:01am Subject: Tiika Vis. 91 Tiika Vis. 91 The eight types of akusala cittas rooted in attachment: 1. accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted ************************************************************ Vis. 91 When a man is happy and content in placing wrong view foremost of the sort beginning 'There is no danger in sense desires' (M.i,307), and either enjoys sense desires with consciousness that in its own individual essence is eager without being urged, or believes auspicious sights, etc., have a [real substantial] core, then the first kind of unprofitable consciousness arises. Tiika Vis. 91: When ( a man is happy...), this points out the meaning of the way cittas rooted in attachment occur. As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of annihilation view and so on. N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. Tiika: .... Having rejected another world, he indulges with perverted mind in sense pleasures since he thinks that there is no danger in them. N: The Tiika then explains the words of the Vis.: beginning with... and gives examples of wrong conduct of someone who takes this for the way to heaven and salvation. It speaks about the different kinds of akusala kamma that someone may commit with wrong view. Tiika: The stories of the fight of the Bhaaratas and the abduction of Siitaa are of wrong relief and thus he treats in this way wrong obsessions. As to the expression, (he believes) auspicious sights, etc.,( have a [real substantial] core), this refers to good omens that are seen, heard or experienced through the other senses. As to the expression, (consciousness that) in its own individual essence is eager, this refers to the citta that as to its essential property is keen and sharp because of attachment and wrong adherence. 2. accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted ************************************************************ Vis: When it is with consciousness that is sluggish and urged on, then it is the second kind. Tiika: As to the expression (with citta that is) sluggish, this means slow, not keen. Such citta occurs being urged on by oneself or by someone else, and thus he said, ³(with a citta that is) urged on². 3. accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted ************************************************************ Vis. But when a man is happy and content only, without placing wrong view foremost, and indulges in sexual intercourse, or covets others' good fortune, or steals others' goods, with consciousness that in its own individual essence is eager without being urged on, then it is the third kind. Tiika : As to the expression, or steals others' goods, the word ³or² should be understood as dealing also with lying and so on that occurs in that way. 4. accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, uprompted ************************************************************ Vis. When it is with consciousness that is sluggish and urged on, then it is the fourth kind. 5)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted ************************************************************** 6)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted ********************************************************** 7)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted **************************************************************** 8)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted ************************************************************** Vis.: But when the consciousnesses are devoid of joy in these four instances through encountering no excellence in the sense desires, or through want of any such cause for joy, then the remaining four, which are accompanied by equanimity, arise. Tiika: Or (no excellence) in the sense desires that are experienced.... Pali: Vis 91: yadaa hi ``natthi kaamesu aadiinavo''ti (ma0 ni0 1.469) aadinaa nayena micchaadi.t.thi.m purakkhatvaa ha.t.thatu.t.tho kaame vaa paribhu~njati, di.t.thama"ngalaadiini vaa saarato pacceti sabhaavatikkheneva anussaahitena cittena, tadaa pa.thama.m akusalacitta.m uppajjati. yadaa mandena samussaahitena cittena, tadaa dutiya.m. yadaa micchaadi.t.thi.m apurakkhatvaa kevala.m ha.t.thatu.t.tho methuna.m vaa sevati, parasampatti.m vaa abhijjhaayati, parabha.n.da.m vaa harati sabhaavatikkheneva anussaahitena cittena, tadaa tatiya.m. yadaa mandena samussaahitena cittena, tadaa catuttha.m. yadaa pana kaamaana.m vaa asampatti.m aagamma a~n~nesa.m vaa somanassahetuuna.m abhaavena catuusupi vikappesu somanassarahitaa honti, tadaa sesaani cattaari upekkhaasahagataani uppajjantiiti eva.m somanassupekkhaadi.t.thigatasa"nkhaarabhedato a.t.thavidha.m lobhamuula.m veditabba.m. Tiika: Yadaahiiti-aadi lobhamuulacittaana.m pavatti-aakaaradassana.m. When ( a man is happy...), this points out the meaning of the way cittas rooted in attachment occur. Micchaadi.t.thinti ucchedadi.t.thi-aadimicchaadi.t.thi.m. As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of annihilation view and so on. Tiika: Taaya hi vipallatthacittaa sattaa ³etaavako jiivavisayo yaava indriyagocaro²ti paraloka.m pa.tikkhipitvaa ³natthi kaamesu aadiinavo²ti yathaa tathaa kaamesu paatabyata.m aapajjanti.... .... Having rejected another world, he indulges with perverted mind in sense pleasures since he thinks that there is no danger in them.... N: The Tiika then explains the words of the Vis.: beginning with... and gives examples of wrong conduct of someone who takes this for the way to heaven and salvation. It speaks about the different kinds of akusala kamma that someone may commit with wrong view. Tiika: Bhaaratayuddhasiitaahara.naadikathaa paapavuupasamaaya hotiiti evamaadike micchaagaahe sa"nga.nhaati. The stories of the fight of the Bhaaratas and the abduction of Siitaa are of wrong relief and thus he treats in this way wrong obsessions. Di.t.thama"ngalaadiiniiti di.t.thasutamutama"ngalaani. As to the expression, (he believes) auspicious sights, etc.,( have a [real substantial] core), this refers to good omens that are seen, heard or experienced through the other senses. Sabhaavatikkhenaati lobhassa, micchaabhinivesassa vaa vasena saraseneva tikhi.nena kuruurena. As to the expression, (consciousness that) in its own individual essence is eager, this refers to the citta that as to its essential property is keen and sharp because of attachment and wrong adherence. 2. accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted ************************************************************ Tiika: Mandenaati dandhena atikhi.nena. Taadisa.m pana attano, parassa vaa samussaahanena pavattatiiti aaha Œsamussaahitenaa²ti. As to the expression (with citta that is) sluggish, this means slow, not keen. Such citta occurs being urged on by oneself or by someone else, and thus he said, ³(with a citta that is) urged on². 3. accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted ************************************************************ Tiika : Parabha.n.da.m vaa haratiiti vaa-saddena tathaapavattanakamusaavaadaadiinampi sa"ngaho da.t.thabbo. As to the expression, or steals others' goods, the word ³or² should be understood as dealing also with lying and so on that occurs in that way. As regards the four types of cittas rooted in attachment, accompanied by indifferent feeling: Tiika: Kaamaana.m vaa anubhuyyamaanaana.m.... Or (no excellence) in the sense desires that are experienced.... **** Nina. 34974 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introductions...from California Dear Daniel, Welcome. If there are difficult points we are here to help. I also find it helpful for myself when people have questions and remarks. Do not get frightened by the terms you find in the Visuddhimagga studies. This is a step by step study of all realities the Buddha taught. It is long winded, a little every week. And whatever you find not clear, do ask. Nina. op 29-07-2004 18:01 schreef Daniel Salinero op Teach@d...: > I also enjoy reading and studying the Dhamma. > From the posts I have read so far, there is still so much I don't understand > even on an intellectual level that I really appreciate the discussions I've > read. I find myself reviewing the messages daily otherwise I get inundated > since there are so many. 34975 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 1. Hi Eric, I like your straightforward questions, they are inspiring. op 29-07-2004 22:16 schreef ericlonline op ericlonline@y...:> >> Lobha clings, but pañña detaches. The development of pañña is > detachment all the way. > > E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? N: It begins with association with the right person who can explain the Dhamma, and listening. > E: Only listening? This is not clear here. N: In that way intellectual understanding of dhammas develops. Because of ignorance we mix up everything, we do not even know what is wholesome, kusala, and what unwholesome, akusala. For instance, we may believe that when feeling is indifferent we are good, no idea that there may be attachment, lobha. See my Intro to Visuddhimagga today. It makes sense to study realities step by step, but it depends on the individual how many details he wants to study. We should never forget the goal of our study: to see that what we take for I, myself, or naother person are only consciousness, citta, mental factors arising with the citta, cetasika, and rupa, physical phenomena. I just quote a little from my "Perseverance in Dhamma": Only a Buddha can teach about what is true in the ultimate sense: citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. We see people, trees, houses and many different things. Do we know what dhamma, reality, is? Seeing is dhamma, visible object is dhamma, thinking is dhamma. We have to practise the Dhamma in order to reach the goal. We have to apply what we learn by being mindful and by developing understanding of nåma and rúpa. It seems that we see a person who is lasting, who stays alive, at least for some time, whereas in reality it is only visible object that is present for a moment and then no more. When we close our eyes, the world and all the people in it do not appear. Our thinking of the world is conditioned by the seeing of visible object. .... For the development of insight, vipassanå, we should first of all know that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, those are cittas that are thinking, different from hearing. When there are the right conditions for the arising of sati it can be aware of any reality that appears, also of akusala. Sati does not arise in the same process of cittas as the akusala cittas, but after the akusala cittas have just fallen away, the characteristic of akusala dhamma can be object of sati and at that moment understanding of it can develop. > (to be continued) Nina. 34976 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:27am Subject: Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Dear reader, I've understood that the Abhidhamma is in the first place a soteriology, but it can also be seen as a (phenomenological) psychology and philosopy. As far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology, it is a very individual and individualistic psychology. MY QUESTION IS IF IT CAN ALSO BE SEEN AS A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY ? I do think so, but I don't know how; for exemple a mother-child relation can hardly be decribed by it. What I have been looking for is how the dhamma's can be used to understand human interaction. I found two starting-points: 1. The four Brahmaviharas are part of the Abhidhamma, as cetasika's (partly in disguise). In developing them focussing of myself or on all sentient beings is comprehensible. But for 'radiating' metta and karuna to somebody who suffers we need empathy: an antenna to know that he or she suffers. The same for mudita to know that somebody has joy. Is empathy a kind of 'seventh door' (as in western psychology sometimes intuition is called the 'sixth sense') ? 2. The two vinnatti's (intimations) that are cetasika's. In "The Buddhist Teaching On Physical Phenomena" Nina Van Gorkom says in Chapter 6 (Intimation through body and speech): "Bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti) and speech intimation (vacíviññatti) are two kinds of rúpa, originated by citta. They are not produced by the other three factors that can produce rúpa, by kamma, temperature or nutrition. As to bodily intimation, this is movement of the body, of the limbs, facial movement or gestures which display our intentions, be they wholesome or unwholesome. The intention expressed through bodily intimation can be UNDERSTOOD by others, even by animals. … Because it is a capacity of communicating, it is called intimation. What does it communicate? A certain wish communicable by an act of the body. If anyone stands in the path of the eye, raises his hands or feet, shakes his head or brow, the movement of his hands, etc. are visible. Intimation, however, is not so visible; it is only knowable by the mind. For one sees by the eye a colour-surface moving by virtue of the change of position in hands, etc. But by reflecting on it as intimation, one KNOWS it by mind-door-consciousness, thus: 'I imagine that this man wishes me to do this or that act.'.… Our intentions are not only communicated by gestures, but also by speech. Speech intimation (vacíviññatti) is a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. … (T)his is called language. And that intimation, that making known, the state of having made known by language - this is that rúpa which constitutes intimation by language. When someone's intention is intimated through speech it is then INTELLIGIBLE to others." But what in fact is 'understanding', 'knowing' and 'intelligible', in Abhidhamma-terms? In the metaphore of broadcasting: sending messages is clear in Abhidhamma-terms, but HOW ABOUT RECEIVING THEM? In what way are mother and baby a kind of empathic unity? The reason for putting this question is not in the first place a scientific curiosity. The point behind it is the old CRITICISM OF MAYAHANA BUDDHISM THAT THERAVADA IS EGOCENTRIC, that COMPASSION doesn't play a central role in the (Abhi)dhamma as mahayanist claim to have and do. I think that criticism is not correct. But why not? Metta Joop Romeijn (a new member, a dutch Theravada-buddhist) 34977 From: connieparker Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:50pm Subject: Re: Precepts and Mouse Tales Onya, Christine! Loved your "Of Mice and Women". Did you name the little guy? Leave him a train schedule? Icaro was flying through my world the other day on some kid's shoulder. The back of his t-shirt said "Icarus". You remember the 'nun controversy'. A new friend sent http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/07/26/2003180584 - "Where did we derail? We have to go back to the Buddha, to Jesus, they were very open to women," says Dhammananda, who was ordained in Sri Lanka almost two years ago and has since been battling to build an official female monastic order known as a Sangha. What's with her dragging the cross dresser in to help rewrite things? The Tibetan monk John, who's been teaching at our meditation group, is now planning on teaching around a commentary called MIND TRAINING LIKE THE RAYS OF THE SUN and I'm not too thrilled about reading it. I put it down when I run across things like the "importance of cultivating the spiritual master". Surely, not one who says things like "buddha has melted down thru your head and taken root in your heart"! (Jesus! Get out another plate!) That meltdown makes you a buddha, too. So here's a room full of human filters pretending to breathe in all the yuck of the world and breathe out purifying light (buddha germs?), not even knowing they're just getting themselves more clogged up with ignorance and all. Aren't I habituated enough to my own limited imaginings already? When you aren't sitting you're still supposed to pretend you're a great enlightened being whose every act benefits the world... more 'habituation' as John defined 'meditation' - part of my 'faking it'. Bring on more me, my favorite Icon! You, Oz. No doubt I prayed for an opportunity to study with Tibetans when I was younger (and disappointed to think I could never ordain. Now I doubt these guys are really Buddhist monks). Pick the book back up and there's a blurb about how this being an oral tradition accounts for the differences in their texts and my little bean counter drops that in the discount box while I'm praising the Tipitaka and skimming over the Tibetan lineage stuff that's supposed to convince me that these Transformation Secrets go back to Buddha. Am I just going to read the book to find points to argue with John about when he pauses for breath? Howard should sick Jesus on me! Sure, it's just words, but my friends believe them. Much more interesting than namas and rupas and giving up our stories. You could tell none of them liked it when John and I agreed that plants are not living beings. I'm happier when we're talking doctrine than 'practicing'. Sarah accused me of being patient yet I can't even wait for the coming dark to be afraid that "I" will still be around to be lost in it, but I'm sure caught up in the scenery along the way! Too late to become a paccekka this time around, but I don't think pretending I'm a buddha now is going to bring that out in the dark, either. I'm not happy that I don't explain things well enough to people who think I'm their friend now. But hey! I was still a chanting fool when most of us met. Why should they listen now? peace, connie 34978 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:54pm Subject: Re: Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo - Noble Eightfold Path Nori, Excellent post. Do you think the four foundations of mindfulness, must be practised in a procedural fashion, that is, that the mindfulness of the body must come first, leading up to the dhamma being last. I ask this especially because the Four Noble Truths are said to be visible in the mind, to me it occurs that this must be at an advanced level of practise, though. -Andrew Levin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Dhamma friends, > > I have compiled this summary of the eightfold path for myself from > Pali using the PTS (Pali Text Society) dictionary translations for > each word and using short excerpts from Gotama Buddha > defining/describing each of the eightfold path from the Maha > Satipatthana Sutta. Also in the section on Samma Sati (right > mindfulness), I have compiled from several translations descriptions > of the third and fourth frames of reference. I like to reflect on it > every now & then even if I am familiar with it. I thought it would > be useful for some of you. > > --- > > In his words from Maha Satipatthana Suttanta, Pali Text Society: > > 20. 'And what, bhikkus, is what is called the Aryan (Noble) Truth > concerning the cessation of ill? > > The utter cessation of, and disenchantment about that very > craving, giving it up, renouncing it, emancipation from it, > detachment to it. > > But now this craving, bhikkus, where in being put away, is it > put away; where in ceasing does it cease? > > In those material things of this world which are dear to us, > which are pleasant - there may this craving be put away, there does > it cease. > > ... > > and what, bhikkus, is the Aryan (Noble) Truth concerning the > way that leads to the cessation of ill ? > > This is that Aryan (Noble) Eightfold Path, ..." > > ----- > > > Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo > Noble Eightfold Path > > > Samma Ditthi - > > Samma2 (p. 695) (indecl.) [Vedic samyac (=samyak) & > samis "connected, in one"; see under san] thoroughly, properly, > rightly; in the right way, as it ought to be, best, perfectly > > Ditthi (p. 321) (f.) [Sk. drsti; cp. dassana] view, belief, dogma, > theory > > ('free from speculation' - from PTS commentary) > > D.ii.312 21. "...And what, bhikkus, is right view ? > Knowledge, bhikkus, about ill, knowledge about the > coming to be of ill, knowledge about the way that leads to the > cessation of ill. This is what is called right view." > > --- > > Samma Sankappa - Sankappa (p. 662) [san+klp, cp. kappeti fig. > meaning] thought, intention, purpose, plan > > D.ii.312 21 "... And what, bhikkus, is right aspiration > (intention) ? > The aspiration towards renunciation, the aspiration > towards benevolence, the aspiration towards kindness. This is what > is called right aspiration." > > --- > > Samma Vaca - Vaca (p. 607) (f.) [vac, vakti & vivakti; cp. vacah (P. > vaco); Vedic vak (vac¡ã) voice, word, vakya > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right speech ? > Abstaining from lying, slander, abuse and idle (vain) talk. This is > what is called right speech." > > --- > > Samma Kammanta - Kammanta (p. 194) [Sk. karmanta; kamma+anta, cp. > anta 14.] 1. doing, acting > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right doing ? > Abstaining from taking life, from taking what is not given, from > carnal indulgence. This is what is called right doing." > > --- > > Samma Ajiva - Ājiva (p. 97) [a + jiva; Sk. ajiva] livelihood, > mode of living, living, subsistence > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right livelihood ? > Herein, O bhikkus, the Aryan (Noble) disciple having put away wrong > livelihood, supports himself by right livelihood." > > (i.e. 'harmless' ¨C from PTS commentary) > > --- > > Samma Vayama - Vayama (p. 609) [fr. vi+a+yam] striving, effort, > exertion, endeavour > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right effort ? > Herein, O bhikkus, a brother makes effort in bringing > forth will that evil (i.e. unskillful) and bad states that have not > arisen within him may not arise, to that end he stirs up energy, he > grips and forces the mind. That he may put away evil and bad states > that have arisen within him he puts forth will, he makes effort, he > stirs up energy, he grips and forces his mind. That good states that > have arisen may persist, may not grow blurred, may multiply, grow > abundant, develop and come to perfection, he puts forth will, he > makes effort, he stirs up energy, he grips and forces the mind. This > is what is called right effort.¡± (also known as Fourfold Great > Struggle) > > --- > > Samma Sati - Sati (p. 672) (f.) [Vedic smrti: see etym. under > sarati2] memory, recognition, consciousness, D I.180; II.292; Miln > 77--80; intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, > alertness, lucidity of mind, self--possession, conscience, self¡ª > consciousness > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°And what, bhikkus, is right mindfulness? > Herein, O bhikkus, let a brother, as to the body, continue so to > look upon the..." > > 1) "body (in regards to: the motion of breath, on how it is > disposed/spatial position, with clear comprehension of what it is > doing, its constitution in regards to its organs/parts and its > fundamentals - the four elements, its fate in regards to its > decomposition/mortality) > > "... that he remains ardent, self-possessed, and mindful, having > overcome both the hankering and dejection common in the world." > > "And in the same way as to ..." > > 2) "feelings/sensations (with regard to whether it is pleasant, > painful, neither pleasant or painful feeling),..." > > 3) "mind/mental-condition/consciousness (regarding whether there is > present craving/lust/passion or no-..., aversion/hate or no-..., > dull/ignorant/delusion or intelligent/not-ignorant/free-from- > delusion, attentive/concentrated/collected or distrait/scattered, > expanded/exalted/become-great/enlarged or unexpanded/not-exalted/not- > become-great/not-enlarged, ideal/unsurpassed or mediocre/not- > ideal/surpassed, composed/quieted or discomposed, liberated/free or > bound/not-free) and ..." > > 4) "ideas/mental-contents/mental-objects (with regard to the five > hindrances. i.e. sensuous-desire/craving, ill-will/aversion, sloth > and torpor, flurry and worry, doubt) ¡¡...¡± > > (Notes in parentheses are personal notes; multiple words are > compiled from several different translations; translations seem to > differ and become vague when it comes to the third and fourth frames > of reference - regarding the mind, its condition, characteristics > and contents£»also some of the characteristics cross into both > categories ¨C would appreciate any clarification. ) > > (Note: below replace ¡®...¡¯ with one of the four frames of > reference described above) > > D.ii.291 2. ¡°...So does he as to the ..., continue to consider > the ..., either internally or externally (i.e. on others outside of > him), or both internally and externally. He keeps on considering how > the ... is something that comes to be, or again he keeps on > considering how the ... is something that passes away; or again he > keeps on considering the coming to be with the passing away; or > again, conscious that ¡®there is ...¡¯, mindfulness hereof becomes > established, far enough for the purposes of knowledge and of self > collectedness. ...¡± > > --- > > Samma Samahdi - Samadhi (p. 685) [fr. san+a+dha] 1. concentration; a > concentrated, self--collected, intent state of mind and meditation, > which, concomitant with right living, is a necessary condition to > the attainment of higher wisdom and emancipation. > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right rapture/concentration ? > Herein, O bhikkus, a brother aloof from sensuous appetities, aloof > from evil ideas, enters into and abides in the first Jhana, wherein > there is cogitation and deliberation, which is born of solitude and > is full of joy and ease. Suppressing cogitation and deliberation, he > enters into and abides in the second Jhana, which is self evoked, > born of concentration, full of joy and ease ...¡± > > --- > > Also Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Eightfold path: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch2 > > > With metta, > > nori 34979 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 0:50am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > Dear reader, > > I've understood that the Abhidhamma is in the first place a > soteriology, but it can also be seen as a (phenomenological) > psychology and philosopy. As far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology, > it is a very individual and individualistic psychology. > MY QUESTION IS IF IT CAN ALSO BE SEEN AS A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY ? > I do think so, but I don't know how; for exemple a mother-child > relation can hardly be decribed by it. > > What I have been looking for is how the dhamma's can be used to > understand human interaction. I found two starting-points: > 1. The four Brahmaviharas are part of the Abhidhamma, as cetasika's > (partly in disguise). Friend Joop, You ask many excellent questions and raise many excellent points!!! I will be curious to see how others respond to your points but I am actually much more eager to know what you think about the issues you have raised. I have found that those who ask the really deep, probing, pertinent, and important questions are usually the ones most equipped to answer them. How do you think the Abhidhamma has relevance to socially engaged Buddhism? How are `miraculous powers', as described by the Buddha, explained in the Abhidhamma? The Abhidhamma does appear to describe nama and rupa as if existing in a vacuum of sorts, what are the interrelations between object- contact-consciousness not in just one person/being but in the events between people/beings? How does one `radiate' the brahma-viharas according to the Abhidhamma? (Actually, I have raised this issue on- list before ;-)) I would be eager to know what you have to say in regards to these issues. Welcome to the list and thank you for such a thoughtful and articulate post. Metta, James (An American Theravada Buddhist with strong Zen influences ;-)) 34980 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Baby and Bathwater Howard, KH: > > Herman and Howard; it looks like I have some fences to mend with you too. :-) I will start first thing in the morning. > > > ======================= H: > I don't see why. If I've done any fence rending, I apologize for it, but with regard to our interactions, I have not read anything from *you* that I would view requiring mending. > ----------------- That's good to know. And, no, I haven't taken offence (no pun intended) at anything either. It's a bit hard to discuss jhana with you when you have such strong commitments in that area, but there are a few things I'd like to say. I intended to write to you, Herman and RobM today but just couldn't get in the mood. I'm feeling as flat as the surf. (There could be a connection there.) ---------------- H: > BTW, with regard to your statement "Traditionally, the Dhamma was understood as a teaching (description) of the way things are," in my opinion that statement, one with which, of course, Jon is in full agreement, expresses an > idiosyncratic view, far from the mainstream understanding, and not easily deduced from the suttas. At the very least, it is fair to say, I believe, that the claim is neither obvious nor undebatable. > ----------------- Even that hasn't fired me up! I must be coming down with something. :-) Kind regards; Ken H 34981 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > Beginning level samatha is what would be useful to discuss, in my view > > (any starters for kindergarten corner ;-))?). > > > > Jon > > > > > ============================ > Certainly not easy - far from it. But the journey of a thousand > miles > ... .The practice will be pretty much just what it is. The fruits of the > > practice will be just what they are. We cannot just say, with any hope > of success, > "Let there be jhana!" ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard There is a general tendency nowadays, as far as I can tell, to regard samatha as a matter of concentrating on one of the specified subjects of contemplation, nothing more than that. Once you have a 'practice' of doing that, it's a clear run to the jhanas ;-)). That's why we find there are 'jhana retreats' being offered, or that many people think they've experienced jhana or something approaching it. How is samatha developed? As far as I know, there is no description in the suttas themselves of how samatha is to be developed. There are of course many references to the different kinds of samatha and to the value and importance of samatha, particularly at the level of jhana. There are also many references to samatha with breath as object (anapanasati), and how highly developed anapanasati can serve as the basis for the development of insight leading to enlightenment. But there is no 'how to' for the beginning development of anapanasati. Which is why I see discussion on the development of samatha as important. Jon 34982 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: ... > Well, my feeling is that people are going to recognize something when > it is their time to do it. A while back, when the jhanas came up as a > topic here on dsg, something happened to me and I lit up like a > Christmas tree. I just had this instant reaction "The jhanas oh yeah > that's it!" almost as though it was something I had forgotten about > and neglected. Now, I think that if someone has that reaction that > something is resonating with them and it means something. ... > If we are drawn to > anapanasati then there is probably a reason in our accumulations. Yes, but what *is* anapanasati, what *is* samatha. These are much more relevant questions than 'Should I be practising samatha/anapanasati.' As with other areas of the teachings, a proper understanding of what it is already involves some aspect of the practice itself. > Still, we don't have to worry because conditions will take care of it. > I actually sat down to practice some preliminary stages of jhana a > few times, and found it very interesting. But the normal course of > events pulled me away and it didn't become a "regular thing." So > conditions are not ripe for me to do that. I see it that way: if we > are not so attached one way or the other then things will take their > natural course. But we should also be open to the possibility of > doing something and when the time is right the opportunity will arise. I'm sure you are not alone in having the idea that one can sit down to practice preliminary stages of jhana, but I think this illustrates the way that samatha in general and anapanasati in particular has been misunderstood, and it is this that prompts me to comment as I have been (rather than the wish to discourage anyone from the proper development of samatha, as I am sometimes taken as doing). As I said in my previous post to you, 'There is no question whatsoever as to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described in the Anapanasati Sutta.' But incorrect practice of samatha is bound to involve the development of further wrong view, so I think one needs to proceed very cautiously. ... > Also, I find myself a bit confused: If the mindfulness of breathing > work is focussed towards the four foundations of mindfulenss, this > would seem to me to be work that is directly focussed on satipatthana > and leading towards vipassana. Could you advise me why you think that > a focus on the development of samatha is inherent in this description? > It seems to me the Buddha is focussed in these suttas, not on the > breath as a calmative or merely as object of concentration, but as a > base for developing satipatthana of the four foundations. Although > the observation and slowing and calming of the breath and mind are > part of the anapanasati sutta, there is probably far more on the > stages of development of insight and mindfulness of the four > foundations. As I mentioned in my recent post to Eric, we should not be confused by the 'sati' part of the names of some of the kinds of samatha -- maranasati, Buddhaanussati, etc. These are not references to the sati of satipatthana, but generally mean 'recollection'. > Jon, I actually find this somewhat comforting. It does make me think > that we have a nice basis for discussion, and that we can look at > particular aspects of the subject more easily. I thank you for making > this clear, and look forward to your response to my and others' posts > in this area, which is very intriguing to me. Thanks for these remarks, Rob. I too find our discussion valuable. Jon 34983 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:24am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > ==================================================== > H > Jon, I read your post as saying the following: > > You know yourself well. > > You know what's going to work for you and what is not going to work for > (I cannot make out from this or previous contexts how you know this) Well, not really a matter of what would 'work for me', but a matter of knowing one's limitations. Only someone whose understanding has been very highly developed could hear a teaching 'in brief', just once, and then go off on their own and attain enlightenment 'in no long time', as in your sutta. Dullards like me need to hear the teaching in full, repeatedly and over a long period of time (and even then, no guarantee of success;-)). > H > You are making classifications in a spiritual hierarchy based on a > known result (the benefit of hindsight), and have made some decisions > about the attainability of enlightenment for yourself. Now of course, > you do not have to justify your self-assessment to anyone, but the need > to be careful would extend to every one of us extrapolating their own > self-assessment to others as well, or not? I can only read this as suggesting that I have a higher level of accumulated insight than I think I do. Now that would be something, coming from you, Herman! ;-)) > I am curious to know, does the satipatthana sutta apply to you, or the > maha-version? Which suttas, if any, that treat of mindfulness, relate to > you? All suttas are worth studying and have material from which we can learn. And among the suttas of more direct relevance to everyone, yes, I would include the Satipatthana Sutta (one of many). > A further point. You mention the general advice of the Buddha re > repeated listening and consideration. Isn't there also unequivocal, > repeated and general advice to seek out the foot of a tree in the > suttas? There are occasions when this advice is given to select monks or groups of monks, but these passages are relatively few and are not 'general' in their application, as I read them. > Is there ever any advice that warns of the dangers of seclusion from the > world? I don't know if there are suttas that contain an actual warning of the dangers of living a secluded forest life alone, but there are certainly suttas that make reference to such dangers. The 'Future Dangers' sutta quoted in your earlier post would be one example. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-077.html The Buddha did not recommend the life lived at the root of a tree for everyone, not even for all monks; what he said was that, lived properly, it was of great fruit (note the difference). For those who are capable of leading it properly, it brings higher gains; but if it is beyond one's capability, then trying to follow it will bring negative results. We should not overestimate our level of understanding; doing so only leads to futile attempts at achieving the impossible, and wrong practice of one kind or another. (Of course, neither should we underestimate it.) Jon 34984 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Annatta teaching Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > Howard: > What I mean is that 1) the proposition is true, and 2) the > contemplating of it and the use of it to direct the mind in observing > phenomena > constitute useful techniques. What is abandoned is the *belief* in > anatta or the mere > proposition, because that conceptual presupposition is replaced by the > direct > knowledge of it in its full, pristine reality, unmediated by concept. > -------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the clarification. I think perhaps you are referring here to the fact that intellectual understanding precedes, and is later supplanted by, direct knowledge (which in turn is supplanted by realization)? 'Intellectual understanding' in this context is of course something more than mere comprehension of, and thinking about, the meaning of what one reads/hears. Going back to Andrew's original question: 'whether the anatta teaching is a description of reality to be realised or a technique to be used and abandoned.' I suppose it's a matter of terminology, but I would not be inclined to describe this intellectual understanding as something to be abandoned, or the acquiring of that intellectual understanding as a technique, since it is actually a level of the same panna that later constitutes the direct knowledge (and later still, the realization). There is no abandoning of the panna that leads to enlightenment. As we have discussed before, the process of listening to, considering, reflecting on, and gaining a reflective acceptance of the teachings, and so forth on to direct understanding, are mutually supportive aspects of, and necessary conditions for, the ongoing development of insight, and will continue to be a necessary part of the development of insight up to the time of enlightenment. ... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I absolutely do not say that the teachings are merely a > technique. My apologies for reading your earlier post in a different light. The > teachings are a correct conceptual formulation of reality, and their > contemplation is part of what is needed in one's practice. As I see it, the teachings of the Buddha are statements of truths (or descriptions of reality), and the practice of the teachings is the direct realization of those truths (or of that reality as so described). Jon 34985 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:01am Subject: Death. Dear dsg-ers, Last nite, on my shift at the hospital, the very ill child I was caring for, died. It was an expected death but of course, traumatic for the family. At the time of death, only the grandfather and I were present. One part of me felt totally helpless, another part felt incredibly fascinated to watch the manifestation of nama ceasing to arise within the rupa we call body. I remember thinking "there is no jivitindriya". BTW. I know I can't actually see these things happening, I'm looking at death in abhidhammic terms. After the family had gone, we proceeded with the task of preparing the body for the morgue. In my time of nursing, I have seen lots of dead people, but have not felt so 'honoured' (strange choice of words but can't think of any better description) to have this experience. After washing the body, we wrapped it in a shroud, placed it in a body bag and then the wardsmen come with the cold, stainless steel trolley and take the body to the morgue. We are all so attached to 'this body; to me' but cuti citta arises and then 'this body' is a thing in a body bag, in a fridge waiting to be burnt or buried. Even 1-2 hrs following death, 'this body' has become discolored and stiff. A dead body is good to reflect on. Prince Siddhartha finally left home after seeing a dead person! but he was the Bodhisatta, eh? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34986 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:27am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Dear Jon, I read this after I sent the post "Death" and on reading further- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Rob Ep > ....snip... > As I mentioned in my recent post to Eric, we should not be confused by the > 'sati' part of the names of some of the kinds of samatha -- maranasati, > Buddhaanussati, etc. These are not references to the sati of > satipatthana, but generally mean 'recollection'. I could have named it 'Marananussati' being one of the 10 recollections treated in detail in Vis VIII: "recollection of death, developed and frequently practised, yields great reward, great blessing, has Deathlessness as its goal and object................or that life is something dependent on in- and-out breathing, and bound up with it;........" to witness the ceasing of this in-and-out breathing is very 'absorbing' May all beings be happy, Azita. 34987 From: Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Hi, James (and Joop) - In a message dated 7/31/04 3:51:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" > wrote: > >Dear reader, > > > >I've understood that the Abhidhamma is in the first place a > >soteriology, but it can also be seen as a (phenomenological) > >psychology and philosopy. As far as the Abhidhamma is a > psychology, > >it is a very individual and individualistic psychology. > >MY QUESTION IS IF IT CAN ALSO BE SEEN AS A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY ? > >I do think so, but I don't know how; for exemple a mother-child > >relation can hardly be decribed by it. > > > >What I have been looking for is how the dhamma's can be used to > >understand human interaction. I found two starting-points: > >1. The four Brahmaviharas are part of the Abhidhamma, as > cetasika's > >(partly in disguise). > > > Friend Joop, > > You ask many excellent questions and raise many excellent points!!! > I will be curious to see how others respond to your points but I am > actually much more eager to know what you think about the issues you > have raised. I have found that those who ask the really deep, > probing, pertinent, and important questions are usually the ones > most equipped to answer them. How do you think the Abhidhamma has > relevance to socially engaged Buddhism? How are `miraculous > powers', as described by the Buddha, explained in the Abhidhamma? > The Abhidhamma does appear to describe nama and rupa as if existing > in a vacuum of sorts, what are the interrelations between object- > contact-consciousness not in just one person/being but in the events > between people/beings? How does one `radiate' the brahma-viharas > according to the Abhidhamma? (Actually, I have raised this issue on- > list before ;-)) > > I would be eager to know what you have to say in regards to these > issues. Welcome to the list and thank you for such a thoughtful and > articulate post. > > Metta, James > (An American Theravada Buddhist with strong Zen influences ;-)) > ============================ I think that an interesting issue has been raised here. Theravadin Abhidhamma [and perhaps Sarvastivadin Abhidhamma, adopted by parts of Mahayana and Vajrayana, as well] appears to deal with the content of a single (arbitrary) mindstream, and presumably one which is not empathic with other mindstreams. Even when Theravadin Abhidhamma deals with relations, the relations are within a single mindstream, and often within a single state of that stream. Inter-stream relations, it would seem, are not dealt with. I suspect this is so because Abhidhamma is a phenomenological matter, being concerned with direct, nonconceptual experience. At the conceptual level, we most assurredly are aware of "other beings" and the interactions among "beings", but at the direct, nonconceptual level of experience, unless one is an arahant, this is not so. There are theoretical analyses in parts of Mahayana, especially as expressed in such "sutras" as the Garland Sutra that attempt to describe the experience of a Buddha, and such descriptions do include a vast net of interacting and mutually reflecting experiential streams, but the descriptions are quite imprecise and metaphorical. The imprecision, no doubt, is due to the fact that the reality being described is one which all but a Buddha (or an arahant) fail to observe in a direct, nonceptual way. Still, one would hope that Theravadin psycho-philosophy would deal with elements of reality that are not completely restricted to single mindstreams, so that one isn't subtly led towards solipsism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34988 From: Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/31/04 7:05:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > How is samatha developed? As far as I know, there is no description in > the suttas themselves of how samatha is to be developed. There are of > course many references to the different kinds of samatha and to the value > and importance of samatha, particularly at the level of jhana. There are > also many references to samatha with breath as object (anapanasati), and > how highly developed anapanasati can serve as the basis for the > development of insight leading to enlightenment. But there is no 'how to' > for the beginning development of anapanasati. Which is why I see > discussion on the development of samatha as important. > ======================== You are correct. There is much in the suttas with regard to moving from one jhana to the next higher jhana, it always being a matter of letting go of aspects of a relatively inferior state. But there do not seem to be detailed instructions on entering the first jhana. Of course, there is the requirement of well established sila and guarding the senses, to calm the mind, and there are the various meditation objects (40) listed for adoption. Beyond this, little or nothing is stated, probably because samatha meditation was already well known and well established prior to the Buddha, and also because samatha meditation was a matter of practice directly and verbally taught as opposed to being set up as a compendium of rules. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34989 From: jjnbdal Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala and akusala and bits and pieces from dhamma on weekend Dear Nina, Matt R and All: Thank you for your answers. From them, I learn that "indicator" I was looking for may be the gradually disappearing of the doubts whether we are moving in the right direction. This only happens when the understanding grows through listening and considering. Wish you all profitable rainy retreat. jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jaran > Thank you. I love your question!! I try. > op 29-07-2004 18:19 schreef jjnbdal op jjnbdal@y...: > > Q: Since satipatthana is so personal--only that person will know if > > it > > is satipatthana or not, and one cannot ask others whether it is or > > not, then how do we know that our understanding is progressing to > > such direction of experiencing dhamma directly (ie satipatthana)? > > > > A: One cannot ask if it is satipatthana or not, but one can ask so > > that one has better understanding of dhamma, in all levels. > > > > Now Nina, I ask you the same question. How do we know, along the way, > > prior to the first moment of satipatthana that our understanding are > > progressing in the right direction? What are the indicators? > N: We keep on listening, hearing the same things about seeing and visible > object over and over again, and in the course of years we find that whatever > we hear becomes more and more meaningful. We are less and less inclined to > ask ourselves: is this right, am I going into the right direction? Such > questions become, by conditions, irrelevant. We know that it all takes time > to develop understanding, even intellectual understanding. We do not even > think in terms of the first moment of sammasati, right mindfulness of the > eightfold Path, and when will it come. We realize that all such thinking is > just lobha! Acharn is so right in saying: < one can ask so that one has > better understanding of dhamma, in all levels.> Yes, also on the personal > level, in our social life, our work, think of the brahmaviharas that can be > applied all the time. > Thus, we hear very often: everything is dhamma. At first these may seem mere > words. But they are a reminder that seeing appears now, it is common to all > of us. Visible object or colour appear now, it is common to all of us. We > all have these dhammas, and let us have more understanding of them as not > self. Do we understand dhamma now, Acharn repeats time and again. Our > frustration, doubts? They are conditioned dhammas. We can notice that > confidence grows, confidence that we are on the right track, even though > sati and pañña are still very, very weak, but this does not matter. If it > matters, what is there? Lobha! When confidence is stronger we worry less and > less about being on the right track. > Look, you must come to India. We should have more discussions. It is therapy > for all of us. Let's add some favorable conditions by discussions now. > Nina. 34990 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi Eric, continuation. op 29-07-2004 22:16 schreef ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: > E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? E: Only listening? This is not clear here. N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual understanding grows. This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition for practice, patipatti. This again for the realization of the Truth, pativedha. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta with pañña. You may not have seen the Visuddhimagga study referring to kusala citta accompanied by pañña. I shall quote a little: We read in the (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom which have to be developed. Another factor is one¹s age. The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga. Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some stemming from the past and others that are of the present. The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta, states: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: 'By this word showing thus the condition, the conceit of one who believes that states unconditionally follow one¹s own will is subdued.' When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paññaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paññaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. > This may show you the concurrence of many favorable conditions, necessary for the development of pañña. It can grow, so long as we do not obstruct it by wanting, wishing, clinging to a fast result. > E: This seems to be easier said than done. Again, any tips > for the eradication? N: It is fully developed pañña that leads to the eradication of wrong view and after that of all other defilements. In order to reach accomplishment, pañña has to begin. It can begin to grow by listening and deeply considering the Dhamma. Also by asking questions, discussing difficult points as you do now. If there is anything you like to discuss, do not hesitate. Nina. 34991 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala and akusala and bits and pieces from dhamma on weekend Dear Matt, I like your answer to Jaran. When there is wisdom there cannot be doubt at the same time. Wisdom is not thinking: is it this or that. Understanding knows when time comes. Nina. op 30-07-2004 12:48 schreef mattroke op mattroke@h...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jjnbdal" > wrote: > >> Q: Since satipatthana is so personal--only that person will know if >> it is satipatthana or not, and one cannot ask others whether it is or >> not, then how do we know that our understanding is progressing to >> such direction of experiencing dhamma directly (ie satipatthana)? > > Rather than a person knows if it is satipatthana or not, is it not wisdom > that has arisen and knows the moment? The moment with wisdom is > different from the moment without wisdom, even if it is very fleeting and > followed by much thinking and doubt. And such wisdom is an indicator > that there is some Dhamma understanding. 34992 From: Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi, Nina (and Eric, and all) - In a message dated 7/31/04 2:06:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Eric, > continuation. > op 29-07-2004 22:16 schreef ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: > >E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? > E: Only listening? This is not clear here. > N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual understanding grows. > This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition for practice, > patipatti. ============================ Okay, it's clear what the pariyatti is. But what, Nina, and all others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the practice - that the pariyatti "forms up the condition for"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34993 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 0:31pm Subject: Translation of Buddha, Dhamma and Sanghanussati Dear Group, Here is my selection of translations for Recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha: ---------------- "Now a good report of Buddha has been spread to this effect: 'That Blessed One was an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge & conduct, fortunate, an expert with regard to the world, unsurpassed leader for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of devas & humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' He taught a Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end with the right meaning and phrasing, he affirmed a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure.'" "At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Buddha, his mind is not overcome with lust or greed, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Buddha. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn041.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-012.html Samyutta Nikaya 11:3, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publications http://www.wisdompubs.org "The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is not overcome with lust or greed, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Dhamma. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-012.html Samyutta Nikaya 11:3, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publications http://www.wisdompubs.org "The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is practising the good way, practising straight-forwardly, practising the true way, practising the proper way -- in other words, the four types of noble disciples when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types -- they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Sangha, his mind is not overcome with lust or greed, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Sangha. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-012.html Samyutta Nikaya 11:3, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publications http://www.wisdompubs.org 34994 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: Death. Hello Azita, I think hospital workers are a privileged group, frequently able to see this end of the 'drama of life' - hard to pretend that medicine is a cure-all, that everything will turn out all right in the end, that 'life' is fair, that the good guys win, that god is love, technology conquers all, and 'someone' will save us in the nick of time - when everyday we see the opposite. I haven't been able to read much fiction or go to many movies, with all their stylised drama, romance and justified violence since beginning to see the pointy-end of dukkha every day. Denial itself is denied by seeing life's realities. BTW - I think we whisk the dead away from their families too soon. I think it is important for them to see the changes in their loved one, the slow discolouring, the growing 'otherness', and the continual changes noticeable to all our senses. I did an investigation a few years back on grief in mothers of deceased neonates and stillborn full-term babes. Interestingly, the Gorillas at the Melbourne Zoo received the most efficacious treatment. Grieving mother gorillas were allowed to carry their babes around until they were ready to release them. Usually it took two to three days, and by that time because of the evident changes in the body, the mother gorilla had come to terms with the fact that death had occurred, and that this body she was cuddling was 'not of me, not mine, not my son/daughter'. She put it gently down and proceeded to ignore it. The gorilla mothers came to a peaceful adjustment to reality, particularly in these traumatic 'deaths before the expected time'. Not all humans are as fortunate. Glad you were there for the Grandfather - metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Dear dsg-ers, > > Last nite, on my shift at the hospital, the very ill child I was > caring for, died. It was an expected death but of course, traumatic > for the family. At the time of death, only the grandfather and I > were present. > One part of me felt totally helpless, another part felt > incredibly fascinated to watch the manifestation of nama ceasing to > arise within the rupa we call body. I remember thinking "there is no > jivitindriya". BTW. I know I can't actually see these things > happening, I'm looking at death in abhidhammic terms. > > After the family had gone, we proceeded with the task of > preparing the body for the morgue. In my time of nursing, I have > seen lots of dead people, but have not felt so 'honoured' (strange > choice of words but can't think of any better description) to have > this experience. After washing the body, we wrapped it in a shroud, > placed it in a body bag and then the wardsmen come with the cold, > stainless steel trolley and take the body to the morgue. > > We are all so attached to 'this body; to me' but cuti citta > arises and then 'this body' is a thing in a body bag, in a fridge > waiting to be burnt or buried. Even 1-2 hrs following death, 'this > body' has become discolored and stiff. > > A dead body is good to reflect on. Prince Siddhartha finally > left home after seeing a dead person! but he was the Bodhisatta, eh? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 34995 From: connieparker Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 2151 Dear Nina, > Subject: Re: Re: Questions re kamma/kusala Looking forward to the DL quote, thank you. No Cooran on my horizon yet. My best hope for flying out of this country is probably to cultivate more joy, I guess, and be like the girl who arrived to hear the teachings before her parents had walked all the way there. For now, judging by my reaction to some of the Tibetan's MIND TRAINING LIKE THE RAYS OF THE SUN, I'm sure I would fall right out of the sky. Better I stay grounded... maybe find something in the book of threes to play translator with since it keeps coming up lately. > As to the Guide: I have the Topics of Abh. which has the complete Co of > the > Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Without it I could not understand the Tiika of > Vis. > but I have to go all across it. One has to get used to it that they > transl > roots, hetus, as motivations and cetasikas as mentalities. This is the same BBodhi Guide that is quoted a lot here? Guide is it's whole name? The Tibetans are always stressing motivation and dedication of merit. One of the last things I read in that book is to imagine yourself offering your many armed body to all beings. Maybe I should take some of your Rahula posts to the group. > Subject: Intro Vis. 91 and Tiika > stories of the fight of the Bhaaratas and the abduction of Siitaa. The > Expositor (p. 133) explains this as an example of frivolous talk, and I don't remember this story. peace, connie 34996 From: antony272b2 Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:20pm Subject: Re: Death. Dear Group, How long does it take for all the living cells in the body (including the brain) to die after the time there is no pulse? This gradual process presents a problem with the idea of instant rebirth although I do strongly believe in rebirth after reading Paticcasamuppadda (Dependent Origination) by Mahasi Sayadaw about death-bed visions. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mahasip2.htm#18 You can download the whole book by clicking: http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/therabud/mahasipt.zip]http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/therabud/mahasipt.zip 34997 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Annatta teaching Jon> Going back to Andrew's original question: 'whether the anatta teaching is a description of reality to be realised or a technique to be used and abandoned.' I suppose it's a matter of terminology, but I would not be inclined to describe this intellectual understanding as something to be abandoned, or the acquiring of that intellectual understanding as a technique, since it is actually a level of the same panna that later constitutes the direct knowledge (and later still, the realization). There is no abandoning of the panna that leads to enlightenment. E: Where is intellectual panna in the 7 factors of awakening? Jon > As we have discussed before, the process of listening to, considering, reflecting on, and gaining a reflective acceptance of the teachings, and so forth on to direct understanding, are mutually supportive aspects of, and necessary conditions for, the ongoing development of insight, and will continue to be a necessary part of the development of insight up to the time of enlightenment. E: How do you know this Jon? PEACE E 34998 From: Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/31/04 5:45:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > BTW - I think we whisk the dead away from their families too soon. > I think it is important for them to see the changes in their loved > one, the slow discolouring, the growing 'otherness', and the > continual changes noticeable to all our senses. I did an > investigation a few years back on grief in mothers of deceased > neonates and stillborn full-term babes. Interestingly, the Gorillas > at the Melbourne Zoo received the most efficacious treatment. > Grieving mother gorillas were allowed to carry their babes around > until they were ready to release them. Usually it took two to three > days, and by that time because of the evident changes in the body, > the mother gorilla had come to terms with the fact that death had > occurred, and that this body she was cuddling was 'not of me, not > mine, not my son/daughter'. She put it gently down and proceeded to > ignore it. The gorilla mothers came to a peaceful adjustment to > reality, particularly in these traumatic 'deaths before the expected > time'. Not all humans are as fortunate. > > ======================== Wonderful, Christine! I am reminded of the mustard seed story. There is so much of value in this post of yours. Sadhu x 3 !!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34999 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 1. Hey Nina, N> I like your straightforward questions, they are inspiring. E: Brevity is next to godliness when it comes to the internet.:-) >> Lobha clings, but pañña detaches. The development of pañña is > detachment all the way. > > E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? N: It begins with association with the right person who can explain the Dhamma, and listening.\ E: True that. > E: Only listening? This is not clear here. N: In that way intellectual understanding of dhammas develops. Because of ignorance we mix up everything, we do not even know what is wholesome, kusala, and what unwholesome, akusala. For instance, we may believe that when feeling is indifferent we are good, no idea that there may beattachment, lobha. See my Intro to Visuddhimagga today. It makes sense to study realities step by step, but it depends on the individual how many details he wants to study. We should never forget the goal of our study: to see that what we take for I, myself, or naother person are only consciousness, citta, mental factors arising with the citta, cetasika, and rupa, physical phenomena. E: Sounds reasonable. N> I just quote a little from my "Perseverance in Dhamma": Only a Buddha can teach about what is true in the ultimate sense: E: Are you a Buddha Nina? citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. We see people, trees, houses and many different things. Do we know what dhamma, reality, is? Seeing is dhamma, visible object is dhamma, thinking is dhamma. We have to practise the Dhamma in order to reach the goal. We have to apply what we learn by being mindful and by developing understanding of nåma and rúpa. E: How? N> It seems that we see a person who is lasting, who stays alive, at least for some time, whereas in reality it is only visible object that is present for a moment and then no more. When we close our eyes, the world and all the people in it do not appear. Our thinking of the world is conditioned by the seeing of visible object. E: hmm what about ignorance? How can the object condition our thinking? Does the object have power over the mind? .... N> For the development of insight, vipassanå, we should first of all know that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, those are cittas that are thinking, different from hearing. E: Are there 6 consciousness or 1? N > When there are the right conditions for the arising of sati it can be aware of any reality that appears, also of akusala. Sati does not arise in the same process of cittas as the akusala cittas, but after the akusala cittas have just fallen away, the characteristic of akusala dhamma can be object of sati and at that moment understanding of it can develop. > E: I thought Sati must be unbroken. Here above you seem to imply it goes on and off? N> (to be continued) E: Looking forward.... PEACE E