35000 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:50pm Subject: Re: Death. Dear Azita, Thanks for sharing!! So glad you have the fearlessness to look death in the eyes!!! PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Dear dsg-ers, > > Last nite, on my shift at the hospital, the very ill child I was > caring for, died. It was an expected death but of course, traumatic > for the family. At the time of death, only the grandfather and I > were present. > One part of me felt totally helpless, another part felt > incredibly fascinated to watch the manifestation of nama ceasing to > arise within the rupa we call body. I remember thinking "there is no > jivitindriya". BTW. I know I can't actually see these things > happening, I'm looking at death in abhidhammic terms. > > After the family had gone, we proceeded with the task of > preparing the body for the morgue. In my time of nursing, I have > seen lots of dead people, but have not felt so 'honoured' (strange > choice of words but can't think of any better description) to have > this experience. After washing the body, we wrapped it in a shroud, > placed it in a body bag and then the wardsmen come with the cold, > stainless steel trolley and take the body to the morgue. > > We are all so attached to 'this body; to me' but cuti citta > arises and then 'this body' is a thing in a body bag, in a fridge > waiting to be burnt or buried. Even 1-2 hrs following death, 'this > body' has become discolored and stiff. > > A dead body is good to reflect on. Prince Siddhartha finally > left home after seeing a dead person! but he was the Bodhisatta, eh? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 35001 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Jon > But there is no 'how to' for the beginning development of anapanasati. Which is why I see discussion on the development of samatha as important. > ======================== Howard > , Beyond this, little or nothing is stated, probably because samatha meditation was already well known and well established prior to the Buddha, and also because samatha meditation was a matter of practice directly and verbally taught as opposed to > being set up as a compendium of rules. E: Indeed. Is it a sort of first experience outside of the matrix of thought? A taste of things to come? PEACE E 35002 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hey Howard & Nina, Nina> > Hi Eric, > > continuation. > > op 29-07-2004 22:16 schreef ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: > > >E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? > > E: Only listening? This is not clear here. > > N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual understanding grows. > > This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition for practice, > > patipatti. > ============================ Howard> Okay, it's clear what the pariyatti is. But what, Nina, and all others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the practice - that the pariyatti "forms up the condition for"? E: Seems Howard has asked 'my' next question!:-) PEACE E 35003 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and Eric, and all) - > ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: > > >E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? > > E: Only listening? This is not clear here. > > N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual understanding grows. > > This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition for practice, > > patipatti. > ============================ > But what, Nina, and all > others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the practice - that the > pariyatti "forms up the condition for"? > > ------------ Dear Howard, I quote from "Tahking Refuge In Buddhism" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket ""Question: Is there a method by which sati can be aware of realities appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind? How can sati arise fast enough in order to be aware of the present moment? Sujin: There is no method which can be followed, but at this moment realities are appearing already. One can begin to develop more understanding of them. If one first listens to the Dhamma and understands what one hears, sati can arise and be aware of realities. However, we have to listen again and again in order to gain more understanding of realities as non-self. What appears through the eyes, visible object, has contacted the rœpa which is eyesense; it just appears for an extremely short moment and then it falls away. If we gain more understanding of realities we will not forget that rœpa- kkhandha (the khandha of physical phenomena), vedanŒ-kkhandha (feelings), sanna-kkhandha (remembrance or ÒperceptionÓ), sankhŒra- kkhandha (formations or activities, all cetasikas other than vedanŒ and sanna) and vinnana-kkhandha (consciousness), thus, the five khandhas, are not self, not I. Listening conditions the accumulation of sati and panna, and thus, awareness of the reality which appears can arise and at that moment understanding of it can develop. This is in fact satipatthana. Satipatthana is not a particular method which should be followed in order to be aware of realities. Satipatthana is the development of the understanding of the characteristics of realities which arise and appear, each because of their own conditions. Do you know ahead of time when realities such as hearing, anger or sati will arise? If there are not the right conditions for hearing we cannot cause its arising. Only when there are conditions for it, it arises. Even so, when there are not the right conditions for the arising of sati, we cannot cause its arising. When there are the right conditions for sati, it arises and then we will know that there is no self who can cause its arising. The development of satipatthana is very subtle; if there is no right understanding of its development people will cling to wrong practice (silabbatta paramasa kaya-gantha). Only panna can eradicate wrong practice. When someone does not know the difference between the moment when there is sati and the moment when there is no sati, he may try to follow another way which is the wrong practice. Right understanding of the way how to develop satipatthan is indispensable; panna should know that sati is anatta, non-self, and it should know when there is sati and when there is forgetfulness of realities. If the difference between such moments is not known panna cannot be developed. There will be clinging to the concept of self who tries to do something. The way to begin is knowing when sati arises and when there is forgetfulness. I will give an example. We all touch things which are hard. Even a child knows that something is hard, because hardness impinges on the rœpa which is bodysense and there is citta which experiences the characteristic of hardness. This happens time and again in daily life. When we just experience or notice hardness, it does not mean that there is sati and panna. Someone, however, who has listened to the Dhamma knows that hardness is a reality which appears when it contacts the rœpa which is bodysense. Hardness is non-self, there is nobody who can create the element of hardness. Whenever the bodysense, which is all over the body, from head to toes, is contacted by something hard, the element of hardness appears. The true characteristic of that particular element presents itself at such a moment. However, when there is forgetfulness of realities and there is no right understanding, we take the whole body, from head to toes, for self. From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we have, time and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not listened to the Dhamma one is forgetful of such moments. A person who has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a ÒselfÓ. Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality. Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is again forgetfulness of realities.""endquote RobertK 35004 From: Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/31/04 11:28:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Nina (and Eric, and all) - > >ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: > >>>E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? > >>E: Only listening? This is not clear here. > >>N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual > understanding grows. > >>This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition > for practice, > >>patipatti. > >============================ > > But what, Nina, and all > >others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the > practice - that the > >pariyatti "forms up the condition for"? > > > >------------ > Dear Howard, > I quote from "Tahking Refuge In Buddhism" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket > ""Question: Is there a method by which sati can be aware of realities > appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind? How > can sati arise fast enough in order to be aware of the present moment? > > Sujin: There is no method which can be followed, but at this moment > realities are appearing already. One can begin to develop more > understanding of them. If one first listens to the Dhamma and > understands what one hears, sati can arise and be aware of realities. > However, we have to listen again and again in order to gain more > understanding of realities as non-self. What appears through the > eyes, visible object, has contacted the rÅ“pa which is eyesense; it > just appears for an extremely short moment and then it falls away. If > we gain more understanding of realities we will not forget that rÅ“pa- > kkhandha (the khandha of physical phenomena), vedanÅ’-kkhandha > (feelings), sanna-kkhandha (remembrance or Ã’perceptionÓ), sankhÅ’ra- > kkhandha (formations or activities, all cetasikas other than vedanÅ’ > and sanna) and vinnana-kkhandha (consciousness), thus, the five > khandhas, are not self, not I. Listening conditions the accumulation > of sati and panna, and thus, awareness of the reality which appears > can arise and at that moment understanding of it can develop. This is > in fact satipatthana. Satipatthana is not a particular method which > should be followed in order to be aware of realities. Satipatthana is > the development of the understanding of the characteristics of > realities which arise and appear, each because of their own > conditions. > Do you know ahead of time when realities such as hearing, anger or > sati will arise? If there are not the right conditions for hearing we > cannot cause its arising. Only when there are conditions for it, it > arises. Even so, when there are not the right conditions for the > arising of sati, we cannot cause its arising. When there are the > right conditions for sati, it arises and then we will know that there > is no self who can cause its arising. > The development of satipatthana is very subtle; if there is no right > understanding of its development people will cling to wrong practice > (silabbatta paramasa kaya-gantha). Only panna can eradicate wrong > practice. When someone does not know the difference between the > moment when there is sati and the moment when there is no sati, he > may try to follow another way which is the wrong practice. Right > understanding of the way how to develop satipatthan is indispensable; > panna should know that sati is anatta, non-self, and it should know > when there is sati and when there is forgetfulness of realities. If > the difference between such moments is not known panna cannot be > developed. There will be clinging to the concept of self who tries to > do something. > The way to begin is knowing when sati arises and when there is > forgetfulness. I will give an example. We all touch things which are > hard. Even a child knows that something is hard, because hardness > impinges on the rÅ“pa which is bodysense and there is citta which > experiences the characteristic of hardness. This happens time and > again in daily life. When we just experience or notice hardness, it > does not mean that there is sati and panna. Someone, however, who has > listened to the Dhamma knows that hardness is a reality which appears > when it contacts the rÅ“pa which is bodysense. Hardness is non-self, > there is nobody who can create the element of hardness. Whenever the > bodysense, which is all over the body, from head to toes, is > contacted by something hard, the element of hardness appears. The > true characteristic of that particular element presents itself at > such a moment. However, when there is forgetfulness of realities and > there is no right understanding, we take the whole body, from head to > toes, for self. > From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we > have, time and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not > listened to the Dhamma one is forgetful of such moments. A person who > has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right > understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He > understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a Ã’selfÓ. > Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this > moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality. > Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware > of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a > reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is > again forgetfulness of realities.""endquote > RobertK > =========================== There used to be a member of this list who was fond of quoting The Peg Sutta, which described how a summoning drum, whenever it had a hole in it was fixed by filling that hole with a peg until finally, the original wood was all gone, being replaced entirely by the new wood of the pegs. To me, reducing patipatti to listening with understanding constitutes not even a peg replacement, but a decimation of Dhammic practice to close to nil, because theory without application is insufficient, and the mulling over of the theory does not constitute event the tip of the iceberg of practice. Listening (or reading) and even contemplating and discussing is not the whole of what the Buddha taught - not even close. Never did the Buddha say to his followers "Just listen to what I teach you, and think about it carefully, for that listening and considering is the path to freedom." To ignore pariyatti is patently and absurdly foolish. But, in my opinion, to reduce the entire Dhamma to pariyatti is not in the least any better. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35005 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: >> > >------------ > > Dear Howard, > > I quote from "Tahking Refuge In Buddhism" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket > > ""Question: Is there a method by which sati can be aware of realities > > appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind? How > > can sati arise fast enough in order to be aware of the present moment? > > > > Sujin: There is no method which can be followed, but at this moment > > realities are appearing already. > > RobertK > > > =========================== > There used to be a member of this list who was fond of quoting The Peg > Sutta, which described how a summoning drum, whenever it had a hole in it was > fixed by filling that hole with a peg until finally, the original wood was > all gone, being replaced entirely by the new wood of the pegs. _______ Dear Howard, Thank you. Are you saying that the quote from Khun sujin suggests she is the one who is fulfilling the peg sutta? RobertK 35006 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:55pm Subject: Re: Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo - Noble Eightfold Path Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suicidal_one2004" wrote: > Nori, > > Excellent post. > > Do you think the four foundations of mindfulness, must be practised in > a procedural fashion, To be honest, I am not sure. This is only my opinion but I don't think there should be any strict procedural fashion. I think your concentration should be where ever your current investigation into truth (that is, Dhamma) is. The Goenka Camp (Vipassana Research Institute) seems to put emphasis on the Body since all things (feelings, mind conditions, mind contents) are manifested as sensations. And according to them, this is the only true reference. It is stated in the Anguttara Nikaya. Anguttara Nikaya, IX. ii. 4 Sariputta spoke thus: "What is the base, Samiddhi, from which thoughts and reflections arise in men?" "From the base of mind and matter, sir." "And what, Samiddhi, accompanies them?" "Sensation accompanies them, sir." Personally and currently, I give emphasis to feelings. This is a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling of suffering, neither- pleasant nor painful feeling. What was the cause as to its arising, what was cause as to its passing away. My reasoning for this is the Four Noble Truths: " What are these four? They are 1) the noble truth of Dukkha; 2) the noble truth of the origin of Dukkha; 3) the noble truth of the cessation of Dukkha; 4) and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of Dukkha." D.ii.312 21. "...And what, bhikkus, is right view ? > > Knowledge, bhikkus, about ill, knowledge about the > > coming to be of ill, knowledge about the way that leads to the > > cessation of ill. This is what is called right view." So this being the goal - I think it all begins there with feelings. And where are feelings felt ? - ... as sensations on the body. > that is, that the mindfulness of the body must > come first, leading up to the dhamma being last. ??? Dhamma is understood by mindfulness of the body. All is Dhamma. Peace, nori ----- > I ask this > especially because the Four Noble Truths are said to be visible in the > mind, to me it occurs that this must be at an advanced level of > practise, though. > > -Andrew Levin > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > > Hi Dhamma friends, > > > > I have compiled this summary of the eightfold path for myself from > > Pali using the PTS (Pali Text Society) dictionary translations for > > each word and using short excerpts from Gotama Buddha > > defining/describing each of the eightfold path from the Maha > > Satipatthana Sutta. Also in the section on Samma Sati (right > > mindfulness), I have compiled from several translations descriptions > > of the third and fourth frames of reference. I like to reflect on it > > every now & then even if I am familiar with it. I thought it would > > be useful for some of you. > > > > --- > > > > In his words from Maha Satipatthana Suttanta, Pali Text Society: > > > > 20. 'And what, bhikkus, is what is called the Aryan (Noble) Truth > > concerning the cessation of ill? > > > > The utter cessation of, and disenchantment about that very > > craving, giving it up, renouncing it, emancipation from it, > > detachment to it. > > > > But now this craving, bhikkus, where in being put away, is it > > put away; where in ceasing does it cease? > > > > In those material things of this world which are dear to us, > > which are pleasant - there may this craving be put away, there does > > it cease. > > > > ... > > > > and what, bhikkus, is the Aryan (Noble) Truth concerning the > > way that leads to the cessation of ill ? > > > > This is that Aryan (Noble) Eightfold Path, ..." > > > > ----- > > > > > > Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo > > Noble Eightfold Path > > > > > > Samma Ditthi - > > > > Samma2 (p. 695) (indecl.) [Vedic samyac (=samyak) & > > samis "connected, in one"; see under san] thoroughly, properly, > > rightly; in the right way, as it ought to be, best, perfectly > > > > Ditthi (p. 321) (f.) [Sk. drsti; cp. dassana] view, belief, dogma, > > theory > > > > ('free from speculation' - from PTS commentary) > > > > D.ii.312 21. "...And what, bhikkus, is right view ? > > Knowledge, bhikkus, about ill, knowledge about the > > coming to be of ill, knowledge about the way that leads to the > > cessation of ill. This is what is called right view." > > > > --- > > > > Samma Sankappa - Sankappa (p. 662) [san+klp, cp. kappeti fig. > > meaning] thought, intention, purpose, plan > > > > D.ii.312 21 "... And what, bhikkus, is right aspiration > > (intention) ? > > The aspiration towards renunciation, the aspiration > > towards benevolence, the aspiration towards kindness. This is what > > is called right aspiration." > > > > --- > > > > Samma Vaca - Vaca (p. 607) (f.) [vac, vakti & vivakti; cp. vacah (P. > > vaco); Vedic vak (vac¡ã) voice, word, vakya > > > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right speech ? > > Abstaining from lying, slander, abuse and idle (vain) talk. This is > > what is called right speech." > > > > --- > > > > Samma Kammanta - Kammanta (p. 194) [Sk. karmanta; kamma+anta, cp. > > anta 14.] 1. doing, acting > > > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right doing ? > > Abstaining from taking life, from taking what is not given, from > > carnal indulgence. This is what is called right doing." > > > > --- > > > > Samma Ajiva - Ājiva (p. 97) [a + jiva; Sk. ajiva] livelihood, > > mode of living, living, subsistence > > > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right livelihood ? > > Herein, O bhikkus, the Aryan (Noble) disciple having put away wrong > > livelihood, supports himself by right livelihood." > > > > (i.e. 'harmless' ¨C from PTS commentary) > > > > --- > > > > Samma Vayama - Vayama (p. 609) [fr. vi+a+yam] striving, effort, > > exertion, endeavour > > > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right effort ? > > Herein, O bhikkus, a brother makes effort in bringing > > forth will that evil (i.e. unskillful) and bad states that have not > > arisen within him may not arise, to that end he stirs up energy, he > > grips and forces the mind. That he may put away evil and bad states > > that have arisen within him he puts forth will, he makes effort, he > > stirs up energy, he grips and forces his mind. That good states that > > have arisen may persist, may not grow blurred, may multiply, grow > > abundant, develop and come to perfection, he puts forth will, he > > makes effort, he stirs up energy, he grips and forces the mind. This > > is what is called right effort.¡± (also known as Fourfold Great > > Struggle) > > > > --- > > > > Samma Sati - Sati (p. 672) (f.) [Vedic smrti: see etym. under > > sarati2] memory, recognition, consciousness, D I.180; II.292; Miln > > 77--80; intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, > > alertness, lucidity of mind, self--possession, conscience, self¡ª > > consciousness > > > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°And what, bhikkus, is right mindfulness? > > Herein, O bhikkus, let a brother, as to the body, continue so to > > look upon the..." > > > > 1) "body (in regards to: the motion of breath, on how it is > > disposed/spatial position, with clear comprehension of what it is > > doing, its constitution in regards to its organs/parts and its > > fundamentals - the four elements, its fate in regards to its > > decomposition/mortality) > > > > "... that he remains ardent, self-possessed, and mindful, having > > overcome both the hankering and dejection common in the world." > > > > "And in the same way as to ..." > > > > 2) "feelings/sensations (with regard to whether it is pleasant, > > painful, neither pleasant or painful feeling),..." > > > > 3) "mind/mental-condition/consciousness (regarding whether there is > > present craving/lust/passion or no-..., aversion/hate or no-..., > > dull/ignorant/delusion or intelligent/not-ignorant/free-from- > > delusion, attentive/concentrated/collected or distrait/scattered, > > expanded/exalted/become-great/enlarged or unexpanded/not- exalted/not- > > become-great/not-enlarged, ideal/unsurpassed or mediocre/not- > > ideal/surpassed, composed/quieted or discomposed, liberated/free or > > bound/not-free) and ..." > > > > 4) "ideas/mental-contents/mental-objects (with regard to the five > > hindrances. i.e. sensuous-desire/craving, ill-will/aversion, sloth > > and torpor, flurry and worry, doubt) ¡¡...¡± > > > > (Notes in parentheses are personal notes; multiple words are > > compiled from several different translations; translations seem to > > differ and become vague when it comes to the third and fourth frames > > of reference - regarding the mind, its condition, characteristics > > and contents£»also some of the characteristics cross into both > > categories ¨C would appreciate any clarification. ) > > > > (Note: below replace ¡®...¡¯ with one of the four frames of > > reference described above) > > > > D.ii.291 2. ¡°...So does he as to the ..., continue to consider > > the ..., either internally or externally (i.e. on others outside of > > him), or both internally and externally. He keeps on considering how > > the ... is something that comes to be, or again he keeps on > > considering how the ... is something that passes away; or again he > > keeps on considering the coming to be with the passing away; or > > again, conscious that ¡®there is ...¡¯, mindfulness hereof becomes > > established, far enough for the purposes of knowledge and of self > > collectedness. ...¡± > > > > --- > > > > Samma Samahdi - Samadhi (p. 685) [fr. san+a+dha] 1. concentration; a > > concentrated, self--collected, intent state of mind and meditation, > > which, concomitant with right living, is a necessary condition to > > the attainment of higher wisdom and emancipation. > > > > D.ii.312 21 ¡°...And what, bhikkus, is right rapture/concentration ? > > Herein, O bhikkus, a brother aloof from sensuous appetities, aloof > > from evil ideas, enters into and abides in the first Jhana, wherein > > there is cogitation and deliberation, which is born of solitude and > > is full of joy and ease. Suppressing cogitation and deliberation, he > > enters into and abides in the second Jhana, which is self evoked, > > born of concentration, full of joy and ease ...¡± > > > > --- > > > > Also Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Eightfold path: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch2 > > > > > > With metta, > > > > nori 35007 From: nidive Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi RobertK, > Is there a method by which sati can be aware of realities > appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind? How > can sati arise fast enough in order to be aware of the present > moment? > > Sujin: There is no method which can be followed, but at this moment > realities are appearing already. I do not understand why Sujin says that there is no method that can be followed. I don't remember any sutta where the Buddha says that there is no method that can be followed to attain enlightenment. It is almost heretic. > Are you saying that the quote from Khun sujin suggests she is the > one who is fulfilling the peg sutta? I feel somewhat that way. I think Sujin over-emphasises on momentary sati. And I think her level of sati is more on the conceptual side. She thinks that by having more intellectual understanding of "ultimate realities", her sati is notched up by another level, which I think is kind of self-deluding. Regards, Swee Boon 35008 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 1:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Death. Hello Howard, Thanks for your comment. I hadn't thought of it quite that way before ... perhaps that is what the Buddha was doing with Kisogatami. I had always thought he was compassionately trying to make her realise that grief is universal, that everyone experiences it, that all eventually are separated from the loved. But maybe he was also giving her time, after her great shock, to come to the same conclusion as the gorillas, letting an adjustment occur naturally because of all the inputs coming through all the sense doors ... Truly Skill-in-means ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 7/31/04 5:45:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > BTW - I think we whisk the dead away from their families too soon. > > I think it is important for them to see the changes in their loved > > one, the slow discolouring, the growing 'otherness', and the > > continual changes noticeable to all our senses. I did an > > investigation a few years back on grief in mothers of deceased > > neonates and stillborn full-term babes. Interestingly, the Gorillas > > at the Melbourne Zoo received the most efficacious treatment. > > Grieving mother gorillas were allowed to carry their babes around > > until they were ready to release them. Usually it took two to three > > days, and by that time because of the evident changes in the body, > > the mother gorilla had come to terms with the fact that death had > > occurred, and that this body she was cuddling was 'not of me, not > > mine, not my son/daughter'. She put it gently down and proceeded to > > ignore it. The gorilla mothers came to a peaceful adjustment to > > reality, particularly in these traumatic 'deaths before the expected > > time'. Not all humans are as fortunate. > > > > > ======================== > Wonderful, Christine! I am reminded of the mustard seed story. There > is so much of value in this post of yours. Sadhu x 3 !!! > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35009 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK,> > I do not understand why Sujin says that there is no method that can be > followed. I don't remember any sutta where the Buddha says that there > is no method that can be followed to attain enlightenment. It is > almost heretic. > > >> I think Sujin over-emphasises on momentary sati. And I think her level > of sati is more on the conceptual side. She thinks that by having more > intellectual understanding of "ultimate realities", her sati is > notched up by another level, which I think is kind of self- deluding. > > ============= Dear Swee Boon and Howard, Thank you for your comments about A. Sujin. Howard I think you do not have to worry about Sujins explanations supplanting the techniques that have become popular in recent times. There will be ever increasing numbers who believe that vipassana is sitting down with eyes closed focussing on a point at the top of the head. Anatta will come to mean a strategy and control. There will be little interest in insighting the elements as they appear now- because that is something that is not a method. It is anatta, not by self, not under anyone's control Robertk p.s. what technique did Assaaji teach Sariputta? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html Ven. Assaji, having gone for alms in Rajagaha, left, taking the alms he had received. Sariputta the wanderer approached him and, on arrival, having exchanged friendly greetings and engaged in polite conversation, stood to one side. "But what is your teacher's teaching? What does he proclaim?'' Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer: Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative. Then to Sariputta the Wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye" enquote. He became a sotapanna. What technique did the Buddha teach him when he became an arahant. The Buddha was teaching another person and sariputta was fanning him: "The Blessed One, The Buddha, The One with Vision, Was teaching the Dhamma to another. Whilst the Dhamma was being taught, I lent an ear keen on the goal. That listening of mine was not in vain, For I am released free from cankers." Theragatha 995-996. 35010 From: nidive Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 4:10am Subject: Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi RobertK, > There will be ever increasing numbers who believe that vipassana is > sitting down with eyes closed focussing on a point at the top of the > head. Anatta will come to mean a strategy and control. I don't think the Buddha taught focusing on a point at the top of the head as a mindfulness technique, did he? > There will be little interest in insighting the elements as they > appear now- because that is something that is not a method. It is > anatta, not by self, not under anyone's control I am sure the Buddha taught mindfulness techniques that allows us to insight the elements as they appear and dissolute now in a sustained and continuous fashion, and these techniques are far much superior than Sujin's "no method to be followed" approach, which is well, actually, just another method she invented without sutta support. > p.s. what technique did Assaaji teach Sariputta? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html > Ven. Assaji, having gone for alms in Rajagaha, left, taking the alms > he had received. Sariputta the wanderer approached him and, on > arrival, having exchanged friendly greetings and engaged in polite > conversation, stood to one side. "But what is your teacher's > teaching? What does he proclaim?'' > > Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the > Wanderer: > Whatever phenomena arise from cause: > their cause > and their cessation. > Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, > the Great Contemplative. > > Then to Sariputta the Wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, > there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye" enquote. > He became a sotapanna. > > What technique did the Buddha teach him when he became an arahant. > The Buddha was teaching another person and sariputta was fanning him: > > "The Blessed One, The Buddha, The One with Vision, > Was teaching the Dhamma to another. > Whilst the Dhamma was being taught, > I lent an ear keen on the goal. > That listening of mine was not in vain, > For I am released free from cankers." > Theragatha 995-996. And of course, you choose not to expound on the various mindfulness and concentration practices undertaken by Sariputta that eventually enabled him to reach arahant magga while listening to the Blessed Ones' discourse. And who taught Sariputta those mindfulness and concentration practices? I think it is always easier to admire a successful person by looking at his results and attempting to replicate his success by taking the easiest route, yet whatever hardships and effort put in by that person before he became successful is seldom admired, because that is too tough to be replicated. Regards, Swee Boon 35011 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK, >> I am sure the Buddha taught mindfulness techniques that allows us to > insight the elements as they appear and dissolute now in a sustained > and continuous fashion, and these techniques are far much superior > than Sujin's "no method to be followed" approach, which is well, > actually, just another method she invented without sutta support. > > > > p.s. what technique did Assaaji teach Sariputta? > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html > > > > Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the > > Wanderer: > > Whatever phenomena arise from cause: > > their cause > > and their cessation. > > Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, > > the Great Contemplative. > > > > Then to Sariputta the Wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, > > there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye" enquote. > > He became a sotapanna. ========== Swee Boon: And of course, you choose not to expound on the various mindfulness > and concentration practices undertaken by Sariputta that eventually > enabled him to reach arahant magga while listening to the Blessed > Ones' discourse. And who taught Sariputta those mindfulness and > concentration practices? > >==========================-- Dear swee Boon, Please tell me which mindfulness and concentration practices sariputta learned when he became a sotapanna? In the end I think one should see that it is the present moment only that can be the object of awareness. And then one will be sure that seeing cannot be controlled- it is anatta. And the same with all elements, they arise so quickly - who could control them. Almost before they are known they fall away. And this knowledge comes about gradually from considering the teachings and from seeing how true they are directly, as much as awareness can do. It might sound easy but actually it goes against the stream to let go of the wrong idea of control and self. There are only conditioned elements arising and passing, so very, very fast, and the more we accept and see that, I think the less complex it all becomes. robertK 35012 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 5:47am Subject: What is a good friend? Hi all, My internet has been down for the last two days. Quite a blessing really!! I wonder what is going on. Recently James made some comments to Nina and Jon replied. Now Howard gets a reply from RobK when asking Nina a question. I understand that some folks here have formed special friendships, but... this is the advice the Buddha gives as to who is a friend. "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. " The whole sutta is Anguttara Nikaya IX.1 Sambodhi Sutta Self-awakening It is to be addressed to members of non-Buddhist sects. It finishes with: He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking. He should develop the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving inconstancy, the perception of not-self is made firm. One perceiving not-self attains the uprooting of the conceit, 'I am' -- Unbinding in the here & now." It is clear I have a number of very good friends here. I am very grateful to them. Herman 35013 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/1/04 12:56:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > Thank you. Are you saying that the quote from Khun sujin suggests she > is the one who is fulfilling the peg sutta? > RobertK > ====================== It seems to me that the position expressed constitutes a diminishing of the Dhamma, Robert. Is that sacrilege? What I am saying explicitly is that it seems to me that saying that Dhamma practice consists only in thinking over and attempting to understand what the Buddha taught is incorrect - that there is much more to Dhamma practice than that. It strikes me that this position, which I see as a "pariyatti-only" position, is, regardless of who takes that position, a less than complete formulation of Dhamma practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35014 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 6:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/1/04 12:56:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > Thank you. Are you saying that the quote from Khun sujin suggests she > > is the one who is fulfilling the peg sutta? > > RobertK > > > ====================== > It seems to me that the position expressed constitutes a diminishing > of the Dhamma, Robert. Is that sacrilege? > What I am saying explicitly is that it seems to me that saying that > Dhamma practice consists only in thinking over and attempting to understand what > the Buddha taught is incorrect - that there is much more to Dhamma practice > than that. It strikes me that this position, which I see as a "pariyatti-only" > position, is, regardless of who takes that position, a less than complete > formulation of Dhamma practice. > ============== Dear Howard, I am at a loss. where has Khun Sujin ever said that > "Dhamma practice consists only in thinking over and attempting to understand what > the Buddha taught is incorrect - that there is much more to Dhamma practice > than that." = Let me look at part of the quote I gave (leaving aside any of her many translated writings): "From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we have, time and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not listened to the Dhamma one is forgetful of such moments. A person who has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a self. Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality. Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is again forgetfulness of realities.""endquote To me the awareness of hardness(or any element) - at the instant it arises- is pattipatti, there is no thinking at all, at that moment. But you feel this emphasis on presently arising realities is not practice, Could you explain why? Robert 35015 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 6:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2.correction --sorry the last post shopuld have said this: - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 8/1/04 12:56:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@y... > > writes: > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > Thank you. Are you saying that the quote from Khun sujin > suggests she > > > is the one who is fulfilling the peg sutta? > > > RobertK > > > > > ====================== > > It seems to me that the position expressed constitutes a > diminishing > > of the Dhamma, Robert. Is that sacrilege? > > What I am saying explicitly is that it seems to me that > saying that > > Dhamma practice consists only in thinking over and attempting to > understand what > > the Buddha taught is incorrect - that there is much more to Dhamma > practice > > than that. It strikes me that this position, which I see as > a "pariyatti-only" > > position, is, regardless of who takes that position, a less than > complete > > formulation of Dhamma practice. > > > ============== > Dear Howard, > I am at a loss. where has Khun Sujin ever said that > > "Dhamma practice consists only in thinking over and attempting to > understand what > > the Buddha taught ." > = > Let me look at part of the quote I gave (leaving aside any of her > many translated writings): > > > "From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we > have, time and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not > listened to the Dhamma one is forgetful of such moments. A person who > has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right > understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He > understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a self. > Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this > moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality. > Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware > of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a > reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is > again forgetfulness of realities.""endquote > > To me the awareness of hardness(or any element) - at the instant it > arises- is pattipatti, there is no thinking at all, at that moment. > > But you feel this emphasis on presently arising realities is not > practice, Could you explain why? > Robert 35016 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi, Herman (and Nina, James, Jon, and Robert) - In a message dated 8/1/04 8:47:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi all, > > My internet has been down for the last two days. Quite a blessing > really!! > > I wonder what is going on. Recently James made some comments to Nina and > Jon replied. Now Howard gets a reply from RobK when asking Nina a > question. I understand that some folks here have formed special > friendships, but... > > this is the advice the Buddha gives as to who is a friend. > > "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable > comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, easily > &without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the > opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on contentment, on > seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on > concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge &vision > of release. " > > The whole sutta is Anguttara Nikaya IX.1 > Sambodhi Sutta > Self-awakening > > It is to be addressed to members of non-Buddhist sects. > > It finishes with: He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so > as to cut off distractive thinking. He should develop the perception of > inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving > inconstancy, the perception of not-self is made firm. One perceiving > not-self attains the uprooting of the conceit, 'I am' -- Unbinding in > the here &now." > > It is clear I have a number of very good friends here. I am very > grateful to them. > > Herman > > ============================= Thank you for your post, Herman. It seems that you are looking to "defend" James and me, though maybe I misunderstand. If I'm correct, I'd like to say that I certainly appreciate such kindness, but I'd like to add that I really think it's very much okay for "third parties" to provide responses. I do that myself not infrequently. Specifically, I have no problem with Robert's reply to me. I disagree with him on this matter, but that's fine. So long as we on the list remain cordial, or, better, remain good friends, there will be no problem. What I find very welcome in your post, Herman, is that I think it is aimed at maintaining an openness and a "live and let live" attitude on the list. This is really important for the proper interaction of friends in the Dhamma. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35017 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 6:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta and spinach Hi, Eric --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Jon, > > > But Eric, it's no good changing your diet thinking its going to > work miracles unless that's what the doctor was really saying. > > So did he say it has to be spinach for everyone, of did he put it > high on the list of good sources of certain useful supplements? > > Of course Jon. I am not saying it is for everyone. But you are > saying it is for a select few i.e. only the Popeyes! Actually, not quite. I'm saying that although spinach is good for everyone, it's not a must, unless you want to be a Popeye (superhero). OK, so the analogy can be taken only so far, but I think you see what I mean. Sure, the Buddha praised samatha and the jhanas highly, but the important question to be asked is whether he said that the jhanas were necessary for the development of insight now (i.e., insight of a presently arisen dhamma). I'd be interested to hear your views on this. Jon 35018 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/1/04 9:20:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > Let me look at part of the quote I gave (leaving aside any of her > many translated writings): > > > "From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we > have, time and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not > listened to the Dhamma one is forgetful of such moments. A person who > has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right > understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He > understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a self. > Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this > moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality. > Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware > of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a > reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is > again forgetfulness of realities.""endquote > > To me the awareness of hardness(or any element) - at the instant it > arises- is pattipatti, there is no thinking at all, at that moment. > > But you feel this emphasis on presently arising realities is not > practice, Could you explain why? > Robert > =========================== As I see it, this is a misuse of the word 'practice'. Practice constitutes volitional actions. The only practices I see being mentioned are the volitional actions of studying and thinking over the Dhamma, it being assumed that all useful factors automatically flow out of these. I see that position as a substitute for the full Buddhadhamma, which also included strong efforts at maintaining ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, avoiding evil and doing good, cultivating the mind through samatha and vipassana bhavana, and so on and so forth. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35019 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 7:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2.Effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > To me the awareness of hardness(or any element) - at the instant it > > arises- is pattipatti, there is no thinking at all, at that moment. > > > > But you feel this emphasis on presently arising realities is not > > practice, Could you explain why? > > Robert > > > =========================== > As I see it, this is a misuse of the word 'practice'. Practice > constitutes volitional actions. The only practices I see being mentioned are the > volitional actions of studying and thinking over the Dhamma, it being assumed that > all useful factors automatically flow out of these. I see that position as a > substitute for the full Buddhadhamma, which also included strong efforts at > maintaining ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, avoiding evil and doing > good, cultivating the mind through samatha and vipassana bhavana, and so on and > so forth. ======================================= Dear Howard, I will give some more brief quotes. I think you have been on this list for a while so probably know many of them- and the links have been tehre for over 4 years- but they are worth repeating as one should be cautious about saying one like Khun Sujin is making the peg in the Dhamma. Fistly let us look at effort. I give extracts only as there are so many pages: http://www.zolag.co.uk/Perfections.txt "ì... energy has exerting as characteristic, strengthening the conascent dhammas as function, and opposition to giving way (to discouragement) as manifestation. It has been said: ëHe being agitated, makes a rational effort,í hence it has a sense of urgency, or the basic condition of making energy, as proximate cause.î We can see that there is energy at the moment of diligence, and this is the opposite of being lazy. However, according to the Abhidhamma which explains in detail the cetasikas accompanying citta, even when we are lazy viriya accompanies the akusala citta, and in that case viriya applies itself to laziness again and again. --- According to the ìExpositorî in the same section, the characteristic of viriya is the state of a courageous or energetic person, or the action of a courageous person. When there is viriya one is not inert or lax. One person may be courageous whereas someone else may be a coward. According to the Abhidhamma, also a coward must have viriya, energy, for cowardice. However, in the case of a courageous person the characteristic of viriya appears clearly since he must strive to accomplish something, inspite of obstacles or dangers. Such courage is the characteristic of viriya cetasika. When viriya goes together with the development of kusala, it can become a controlling faculty, the indriya of viriya. When it arises together with the other indriyas, the indriyas of confidence (saddhå), sati, samådhi (concentration) and paññå with the development of satipaììhåna, it is right effort, sammåvåyåma. It is right effort for awareness and understanding of the characteristics of realities, just as they naturally appear at this moment. When paññå has further developed, viriya becomes a power, bala, which is unshakable, so that there is energy for awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa in whatever situation. We can verify the characteristic of viriya by the following explanation of the ìExpositorî about the controlling faculty, the indriya, of viriya: ìViriya is the state of a courageous or energetic man, or it is the action of the energetic, or it is that which should be effected, carried out by method or suitable means. From its overcoming idleness it is a controlling faculty (indriya) in the sense of predominance. Or, it exercises government with the characteristic of grasp. Combined with ëfacultyí there is the compound: ëenergy- facultyí. Its characteristic is strengthening, and grasp, or support.î When there is viriya, someone has the courage to speak, to say what is right, or to act in a wholesome way, not being afraid of trouble, difficulties, or even of losing possessions and becoming poor. This is the characteristic of viriya. Or someone has the courage to explain with regard to the Dhamma the causes which bring their appropriate effects, without paying attention to the fact that he will not be liked by foolish people, or that others will have wrong understanding of his good intention. Someone who is courageous will do what is right with regard to worldly matters as well as Dhamma, because Dhamma is Dhamma: it cannot be changed, it is the truth. All people have viriya, but if the Dhamma had not been taught the characteristic and the different aspects of viriya could not be known. Viriya has been explained as controlling faculty, indriya, because it is predominant as a support for the conascent dhammas. Whenever kusala citta arises and someone performs an action with patience and diligence, there is viriya cetasika which gives support at such a moment. One can perform oneís task without becoming disheartened. As we read in the definition of the controlling faculty, the indriya, of viriya, its characteristic is strengthening and giving support. If one develops paññå one is supported by viriya so that one does not decline from the development of paññå and all kusala dhammas. The ìExpositorî(120) uses the simile of an old house that is strengthened and supported by new pillars. Evenso, when someone is supported by viriya, kusala dhammas will not decline in him. If someone at this moment is bored, lazy, drowsy or disheartened, he should know that he is like an old building that is dilapidated, because he is not able to be firm in kusala and to apply himself to it. Viriya cetasika has the characteristic of strengthening and supporting just as a pillar supports an old house so that it is stable. Thus we see the characteristic of support of viriya. The ìExpositorî uses several similes so that we can understand the characteristic of viriya cetasika that arises at this moment. We read in the ìExpositorî (121): ìAs a small army going to battle might be repulsed; then they would tell the king. The king would send a strong reinforcement. The kingís army, being thus supported, would defeat the hostile army. Thus energy does not allow associated states to recede, to retreat; it uplifts, supports them. Hence has it been said that energy has the characteristic of supporting.î Viriya is the attendant of paññå. The ..""" RobertK 35020 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 7:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > As I see it, this is a misuse of the word 'practice'. Practice > constitutes volitional actions. The only practices I see being mentioned are the > volitional actions of studying and thinking over the Dhamma, it being assumed that > all useful factors automatically flow out of these. I see that position as a > substitute for the full Buddhadhamma, which also included strong efforts at > maintaining ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, avoiding evil and doing > good, cultivating the mind through samatha and vipassana bhavana, and so on and > so forth. >============== Dear Howard, Now I give some quotes by Sujin about 'avoiding evil and doing good': http://www.zolag.co.uk/metta.rtf This is from the introduction by Nina to a book about the 10 kusalakammapatha (the 10 ways of wholesome action) "Ms. Sujin has a wide knowledge of the Buddhist scriptures and frequently quotes from them. However, theoretical knowledge of them is not enough. She stresses time and again that knowledge gained from listening to the teachings and reflection about them should be a foundation for the development of direct understanding of the realities presenting themselves through the six doorways of the senses and the mind. She helps people to develop this kind of understanding which leads to the goal of the teachings: the elimination of all that is unwholesome and impure. "" Here is extract from the chapter on generosity: "W. : People who have day in day out barely enough for their own use will not be able to perform deeds of generosity. How can they develop kusala? S. : The word kusala refers to the nature of the citta which is good and beautiful, and such citta brings a pleasant result, thus, it causes us to receive what is pleasant. When someoneÕs citta is wholesome there are no attachment, anger, ignorance or jealousy, no pride, conceit or other defilements arising at that moment. Even if someone has no things he can give away there can be kusala citta. There are many other kinds of kusala besides the giving away of things. W. : Thus, there can also be the development of kusala without necessarily giving things away. If that is true, so much the better. In my daily life I often hear people say that they can hardly obtain enough for their own living. In that case it is difficult to develop the way of kusala which is dŒna, generous giving; it seems that there is no way to do that. With regard to the accumulation of wholesome qualities and wholesome conduct, people often have to hear the admonition: ÒDonÕt have attachment, anger or ignorance.Ó What should we do to prevent the arising of defilements? S. : It is important to know the characteristic of the citta which is not kusala, and to know at which moment it arises. If we do not know the characteristic of akusala citta we may erroneously believe that at the moments we do not commit bad deeds through body or speech there must be kusala cittas. W. W. : Thus, if one gives something away just once it can be a condition for the arising of many more kusala cittas afterwards, both for the person who has given himself and for others who have appreciation of the good deed of the giver. S. : The person who did not perform wholesome deeds himself, but who rejoices in the wholesome deeds of someone else, has kusala cittas, cittas without attachment, anger, jealousy or other defilements. The appreciation of someone elseÕs kusala is another way of kusala. Its arising is conditioned by the kusala of someone else. This way of kusala is called in PŒli: pattanumodana . At such a moment there is kusala citta with ÒanumodanaÓ, appreciation of someone elseÕs kusala. Therefore, even if someone cannot perform a wholesome deed himself he can still have kusala citta. When he has cittas without jealousy and when he rejoices in someone elseÕs wholesome deed, his cittas are kusala cittas without necessarily giving away things himself to someone else. #endquote. You might think that talking about generosity is very easy, but Sujin lives it through and through. I had 5 or 6 trips to thailand where I was very poor and very raw when it came to Dhamma too. I could never understand how much help I was given by Khun Sujin and Khun Sujit and Khun Duang Duen(slose friend of Sujin). Mostly in Dhamma and kindness but also in material help. They never let me pay for any hotel or food , and sometimes I satyed in tahiland for months and went on numerous trips. One time Khun Duang Duen reserved a seat for me on the India pilgrimage, but I eventually had to say no as I had no job. So she wrote offering the airticket to Thailand and then the whole package deal to India. I so wanted to go but did manage to refuse. We went to a school in north Thailand and they gave a huge donation - something I could not afford even now- I could go on and on. I only mention these material offerings becuase they cannot be debated- but the inner giving away of self is something deeper that I see Sujin do as a way of life. RobertK 35021 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 7:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2.Samatha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: >> As I see it, this is a misuse of the word 'practice'. Practice > constitutes volitional actions. The only practices I see being mentioned are the > volitional actions of studying and thinking over the Dhamma, it being assumed that > all useful factors automatically flow out of these. I see that position as a > substitute for the full Buddhadhamma, which also included strong efforts at > maintaining ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, avoiding evil and doing > good, cultivating the mind through samatha and vipassana bhavana, and so on and > so forth. =========================== Dear Howard, Now I add some quotes about samatha bhavana: http://www.zolag.co.uk/metta.rtf """S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements. W. : What are these four meditation subjects? S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettŒ (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death. W. : Before going to sleep we praise the excellent qualities of the Buddha by reciting the words: ÒItiÕpi so bhagavŒ: -arahaØ, sammŒsambuddho, vijjŒ cara?asampanno, sugato, lokavidœ, anuttaro purisadamma-sŒrathi, satthŒ devamanussŒnaØ, buddho, bhagavŒÕ t'.Ó This means: ÒThat Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with (clear) vision and (virtuous) conduct, sublime, the knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.Ò Is this a way of mental development which is calm? S. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious action of the level of s'la, because it is kusala performed through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words, but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the excellent qualities of the Buddha. W. : In which way can I recollect the excellent qualities of the Buddha? S. : We can recollect the wisdom of the Buddha by which he attained enlightenment. We can recollect the purity of the Buddha who completely eradicated all defilements. We can recollect the great compassion of the Buddha who taught the Dhamma in manifold ways with the purpose of helping all living beings. At the moment we recollect the excellent qualities of the Buddha there is kusala citta with calm, which is free from defilements, because we do not think of other things which can cause the arising of defilements. The citta which recollects the qualities of the Buddha is pure and it is inclined to practise the Dhamma as it has been taught by the Buddha. At such moments the citta is gentle, one will not hurt or harm someone else. There is mettŒ and benevolence, one wishes happiness for everybody. When we are developing the inclination to mettŒ and benevolence for others we should take care not to be absorbed in pleasant objects . We can prevent this by considering the foulness of the body, both of ourselves and of others . If we neglect considering this we may go the wrong way and have attachment and infatuation instead of pure loving kindness. In order to prevent the citta to pursue objects which are pleasant and lead to infatuation, we should recollect death which will come certainly. Nobody knows when death will come, whether it will come after a long time or very soon. If we always recollect death it will help us more and more not to be neglectful of kusala. The opportunity for birth as a human being is very raru and therefore we should develop every poassible kind of kusala. W. : Summarizing our conversation, I conclude that there are, apart from dŒna and s'la, other ways of developing kusala, namely, those kinds of kusala which are included in bhŒvanŒ. When the citta is not intent on dŒna, s'la or bhŒvanŒ, it is akusala citta. In daily life it is difficult to develop calm to the level of attainment concentration, which is jhŒna. However, there is still a way to prevent the citta from thinking of things which cause the arising of defilements. We can think of subjects which are the condition for purity of citta. These subjects are: recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettŒ, consideration of the foulness of the body and mindfulness of death. If we see the disadvantage and danger of all degrees of defilements, and if we try to develop kusala with the purpose of eliminating all these degrees of defilements, .."endquote RobertK 35022 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 7:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > As I see it, this is a misuse of the word 'practice'. Practice > constitutes volitional actions. The only practices I see being mentioned are the > volitional actions of studying and thinking over the Dhamma, it being assumed that > all useful factors automatically flow out of these. I see that position as a > substitute for the full Buddhadhamma, which also included strong efforts at > maintaining ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, avoiding evil and doing > good, cultivating the mind through samatha and vipassana bhavana, and so on and > so forth. >====================== Dear Howard, This is a quote by Sujin about guarding the senses: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dhamma_in_cambodia.htm . "" When there is awareness of realities that appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body-sense or the mind- door, there is actually training in higher síla (adhi síla sikkhå) and even if a slight degree of akusala citta would arise, it could not condition any motion of the body to perform a bad deed, and one is able to know with sati sampajañña (sati and paññá) the characteristic of the reality appearing at that moment . Thus, there is indriya saóvara síla, the guarding of the six doors, when someone is aware of the characteristics of realities appearing through the - senses and the mind-door. Then he develops the paññá that knows the true nature of realities."" RobertK 35023 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 7:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 8/1/04 9:20:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > " A person who > > has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right > > understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He > > understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a self. > > Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this > > moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality. > > Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware > > of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a > > reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is > > again forgetfulness of realities.""endquote > > > > To me the awareness of hardness(or any element) - at the instant it > > arises- is pattipatti, there is no thinking at all, at that moment. > > > > But you feel this emphasis on presently arising realities is not > > practice, Could you explain why? > > Robert > > > =========================== > As I see it, this is a misuse of the word 'practice'. Practice > constitutes volitional actions. The only practices I see being mentioned are the > volitional actions of studying and thinking over the Dhamma, it being assumed that > all useful factors automatically flow out of these. ======= Dear Howard, Perhaps I'm being dense but are you saying that awareness of hardness (for instance) is not practice? RobertK 35024 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 7:54am Subject: Abhidhamma and this moment Dear Group, Someone asked me about Abhidhamma and how it relates to practice. he wanted to know what is occuring when he looks at a tree and if there could be understanding then: In the Abhidhamma there are 4 types of cittas: Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala (unwholesome) and kusala (wholesome). In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as visible object only one moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other types of citta (not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many, many more moments that are not vipaka. Now that very insignificant vipaka citta is certainly conditioned by kamma, that is by kamma done at an earlier time in the same life or in previous lives. However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by kamma. The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm' because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on."" So to sum up even vipakacitta is not solely conditioned by kamma. When we look at a tree what happens? Perhaps the tree just happens to be in our line of sight and we have no intention to look at it and don't think about it at all. Nevertheless whether there is thinking about it or not one knows that this is a tree. How is it possible to know something without thinking about it? This is because the processes of mind that occur after the seeing are happening very fast and so concepts are formed up even before they are crystalised into thoughts (by thoughts here I mean words). Thus even animals know who their children are, which food tastes better etc. Or perhaps we turn our head slightly, fix our gaze for a few seconds, remember the name of the tree or realise that we don't know the name of the tree (in my case). Here intention is apparent and I think this is where the importance of this question will show. In the Satipatthana sutta the Buddha spoke about clear comprehension (Sati and sampajanna): "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension."endquote Notice that "looking straight on and in looking away" is included among the opportunties where sati and sampajanna (comprehension) can arise. What then is meant by sati sampajanna? The samanaphala sutta commentary (translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship). notes that there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear comprehension) 1)puposefulness, 2)suitabilty, 3)resort, and 4)non-delusion -amoha , panna. Number 3, resort, has two meanings: one as "clearly comprehending the resort for ones almsround(for example)" and the other as comprehending the resort of ones meditation subject. On p116 it says "therefore those practising here with with the aggregates, elements and bases as their meditation subjects should look ahead and look aside by way of their own meditation subject: those practising such meditation subjects as the kasinas should look ahead and look aside keeping their meditation subject in mind." A couple of points here: One - that gocara , resort, has levels of meaning. Two- a distinction made between those who are developing samattha and those who are developing vipassana (the object of vipassana is the agggregates, elements or bases - paramattha dhammas). This should not be taken to mean that those who develop vipassana should be so fixed on the khandas etc. that they exclude any samatha. As when one sees people, for example, there can be moments of metta or karuna. Or if one sees a dead body moments where this is taken as an object for reflection. Likewise one who is developing samatha, if he attains jhana, upon leaving the state of jhana can insight those pleasant moments directly as simply dhammas. The same page says " Clear comprehension of non-delusion here is understanding thus "internally there is no self which looks ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look ahead' arises , the mind -originated air element arise together with the thought, producing intimation....." It carries on giving more and more details about mind processes, all to show that there is no-self, only fleeting conditioned phenomena. This is comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. I find such details helpful as it helps me to bring attention to what is really occuring . For example, now I push the keys on the computer. But by considering the words from the commentary I am reminded that in fact there is no self who is doing this; that conditioned by the thought (which was itself conditioned) arose the diffusion of the air element that allowed the hand to push the correct(or incorrect) buttons. And the same when I look at the screen, or look away from the screen. And for that matter just now I looked out of my window . Stephen's question helped that experience to be just a fraction more insightful than it usually is. This type of understanding can, of course, be rather superficial, just mere lipservice and thinking, but sometimes it can go to the bone, then words are not needed. On page 88 the commentary says "since this Dhamma is deep in doctrine and deep in teaching, listen carefully. Since it is deep in meaning and deep in penetration, attend to it carefully". RobertK 35025 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/1/04 10:50:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > Perhaps I'm being dense but are you saying that awareness of > hardness (for instance) is not practice? > RobertK > ======================== Then we are all pratitioners, Robert! Who is not aware of hardness? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35026 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 4:14am Subject: Merely Pondering Hi, Robert - As I see it, restricting practice to hearing and pondering the teachings constitutes a replacement of the Buddhadhamma by a "pseudo-dhamma". Now merely studying and pondering is not something bad. In fact, it is a positive good. But it is not the Dhamma, as I see it, at least not the whole of it. All the quotes you have provided still, in my opinion, present a view of Dhamma practice as consisting only of studying the teachings and pondering them, and then (these quotes) characterize whatever mindfulness, concentration, and insights that may arise as consequence of the studying and pondering and of whatever other supportive conditions happen to be in place as constituting further "practice". I do not believe that is what the Buddha taught. The Savakas were called "hearers," because they were the fortunate ones who had the magnificent opportunity to hear words of Dhamma directly from the Buddha, and not because all they did was listen. They listened and they acted. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35027 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: death and listening. Hi Howard, Eric, Azita, Christine, op 31-07-2004 20:38 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual understanding grows. >> This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition for practice, >> patipatti. > ============================ > Okay, it's clear what the pariyatti is. But what, Nina, and all > others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the practice - > that the > pariyatti "forms up the condition for"? N: Inspired by Azita's and Christine's good posts, I shall give an example. Yesterday while hiking, we saw the corpse of a yound wild boar. I had attachment to its beauty (the stripes on its back were so cute), and aversion because of the flies on it. I then remembered suttas. especially Theragatha,: "As is that body, so this body will be." This brings us back to reality now. What are we? Only citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away. There is actually life and death at each moment, also now. If there are enough conditions accumulated such happenings can be a reminder for sati and pañña to consider dhamma now and be aware of it, so that there can be direct understanding. But I must add that its development is a long process and that we cannot expect a quick result of the development. But anyway it is beneficial to reflect on and contemplate nama and rupa as they appear now, and also to develop the "Perfections". It all begins with listening, and so I was glad with Rob K's quote. A good reminder that sati is also anatta, non-self. it cannot be manipulated. When we listen, and this also includes reading suttas, we come to understand that citta, cetasika and rupa occur now, in daily life. We come to understand more what kusala is, what akusala. How we need the Abhidhamma and also the consideration of these realities when they occur. When looking at a corpse there are so many types of cittas, akusala and some kusala, but kusala is very rare. A concurrence of many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta with understanding. Howard, you will always stress: training is necessary. As I see it: all the moments of listening, considering, practising dana, sila and mental development, and these include the ten bases of kusala, in our life are the training. They are conditions that are accumulated so that direct understanding of dhammas can arise and lead to enlightenment. Howard, you have been discussing samatha with Jon. I would like to add something. The subjects of samatha such as mindfulness of death, maranasati, have the word sati. This, as I see it, has everything to do with satipatthana, the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. As I showed above: maranasati brings us back to awareness of reality now. Also before the Buddha's time people practised samatha, but the Buddha gave a new dimension to all those meditation subjects. Whatever he taught, the goal was always: eradication of wrong view of self and other defilements through the development of understanding now. Thus, whenever we read about samatha or meditation subjects we should not forget this goal. Also for those who could attain jhana the goal was the same. They should not take their development of samatha and jhanacitta for self. I shall write more to Joop R about the social aspects of the Dhamma. This is nothing else but practice with satipatthana inspired by the whole Tipitaka, including Abhidhamma! But when I say, satipatthana, I know that direct awareness and understanding are difficult, still being far from it. But, even intellectual understanding helps in our life, to understand ourselves and others, to see the benefit of kusala, the danger of akusala. Those are conditions for the growth of pañña, and, as I said, we should not wish for it to grow fast, that slows down the process. Lodewijk understands your concern that just listening may lead to passivity, sliding down to laziness, not doing anything. But, he says, it is listening with the purpose of considering, understanding and applying what one heard in the circumstances of daily life. The above example shows that there are all the time confrontations desirable or undesirable, events and our reactions to it with kusala citta or akusala citta. During a walk, when we visit my father, there are always things happening. We can learn to live by the Dhamma, we do not have to go far, Dhamma is everywhere. Nina. 35028 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 2151 Dear Connie, op 01-08-2004 00:04 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: Better I stay grounded... > maybe find something in the book of threes to play translator with since > it keeps coming up lately. N: Which one? so that we do'nt do the same. > >> As to the Guide: I have the Topics of Abh. which has the complete Co of >> the >> Abhidhammattha Sangaha. > > This is the same BBodhi Guide that is quoted a lot here? Guide is it's > whole name? Guide stands for Abhidhammattha Sangaha, of which there are two other transl: Manual of Abh by Ven. Narada and a PTS edition: Compendium of Philosophy which has bits of Co. As I understand, B.B. has a choice of Co added. This is insufficient for me, I want the whole of the Co. and no selections of it. C: The Tibetans are always stressing motivation and dedication of merit. One > of the last things I read in that book is to imagine yourself offering > your many armed body to all beings. Maybe I should take some of your > Rahula posts to the group. N: A. Sujin's Perfections can help them, here is a common ground with them. They also stress the perfections. C: stories of the fight of the Bhaaratas and the abduction of Siitaa. The >> Expositor (p. 133) explains this as an example of frivolous talk, and > I don't remember this story. N: The Mahabhaarata. Old Hindu stories, something like Ramayana, very popular entertainment at that time and Ramayana is now also performed in Asian countries. Nina. 35029 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Dear Joop R, Welcome to this group! I appreciate your excellent questions on Abhidhamma and social life. A favorite subject for me, especially the Brahmaviharas and social life. op 30-07-2004 20:27 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > > I've understood that the Abhidhamma is in the first place a > soteriology, but it can also be seen as a (phenomenological) > psychology and philosopy. As far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology, > it is a very individual and individualistic psychology. > MY QUESTION IS IF IT CAN ALSO BE SEEN AS A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY ? > I do think so, but I don't know how; for exemple a mother-child > relation can hardly be decribed by it. N: The Abhidhamma helps to understand citta at this moment, to understand yourself, your own akusala and their condiitons. In this way you will understand others. Mother-child: how helpful for a mother to realize that a lot of selfishness is mixed with sincere metta. Realizing this is for the benefit of the child. Otherwise she will cling unduly, and the child will not develop into a independent human, well functioning in society. We see examples of this around us, even in our family! J: What I have been looking for is how the dhamma's can be used to > understand human interaction. I found two starting-points: > 1. The four Brahmaviharas are part of the Abhidhamma, as cetasika's > (partly in disguise). > In developing them focussing of myself or on all sentient beings is > comprehensible. But for 'radiating' metta and karuna to somebody who > suffers we need empathy: an antenna to know that he or she suffers. > The same for mudita to know that somebody has joy. Is empathy a kind > of 'seventh door' (as in western psychology sometimes intuition is > called the 'sixth sense') ? N: No seventh doorway. But understanding just helps to be more sensitive to others' needs. I add more on the Brahmaviharas. J: 2. The two vinnatti's (intimations) that are cetasika's. In "The > Buddhist Teaching On Physical Phenomena" Nina Van Gorkom says in > Chapter 6 (Intimation through body and speech): "Bodily intimation > (kåyaviññatti) and speech intimation (vacíviññatti) are two kinds of > rúpa, originated by citta. ..... When someone's intention is intimated through > speech it is then INTELLIGIBLE to others." > J: But what in fact is 'understanding', 'knowing' and 'intelligible', in > Abhidhamma-terms? > In the metaphore of broadcasting: sending messages is clear in > Abhidhamma-terms, but HOW ABOUT RECEIVING THEM? In what way are > mother and baby a kind of empathic unity? N: It is no problem. Receiving messages, thinking about them, these are all real. The Abhidhamma helps us to see that whatever we and others experience, are impermanent phenomena arising because of conditions, devoid of self. When I speak or gesticulate, I take such moments of self. But actually there are just nama and rupa. J: The reason for putting this question is not in the first place a > scientific curiosity. > The point behind it is the old CRITICISM OF MAYAHANA BUDDHISM THAT > THERAVADA IS EGOCENTRIC, that COMPASSION doesn't play a central role > in the (Abhi)dhamma as mahayanist claim to have and do. > I think that criticism is not correct. But why not? N: The Abhidhamma is not theoretical, it is closely connected with satipatthana, and I mean: satipatthana in daily life. You do not have to study all details of the Abhidhamma, but the Abhidhamma can be a guiding principle to know when the citta is kusala and when akusala. What is the use of taking for pure metta and compassion what is mixed with selfish affection? The Abhidhamma helps us to detect the near ennemies of the Brahmaviharas. Equanimity is most important. When people are beyond help we can remember that kamma produces vipaka and that nobody can prevent this. The Abhidhamma explains conditions in detail, and this helps to understand kamma and vipaka. Also: akusala citta can so suddenly arise, in ourselves and others. We learn that there are latent tendencies, defilements laying dormant in the stream of cittas. They can condition the arising of akusala citta at any time, and thus we shall have more understanding and patience when others behave in a contrarious way. Some time ago I wrote a series about the social implications of the Brahmaviharas. Yes, they are cetasikas, they are so real! I can repost a little now: Nina. 35030 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 1. Hi Eric, op 01-08-2004 04:40 schreef ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: >>> Lobha clings, but pañña detaches. The development of pañña is >> detachment all the way. >> >> E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? N: Yes, very much so! She is great in helping others to see their own clinging to self, right from the beginning. This is important, to begin in the right way. Surreptitiously we may try to insert a self, try to manipulate, direct sati. But she helps people to understand that sati can arise when performing our ordinary activities in daily life. She helps us to see that also sati and pañña are anatta. They can only arise when there are the right conditions. We do not need to be passive (as Howard always fears), conditions can be cultivated. Learning what is not sati helps to understand the difference between the moment of sati and the moment without it. See Rob K's quote. What a lot of ups and downs we are bound to have. That is because of ignorance and clinging. We take for sati what isn't and this is very common. I tried to explain more about conditions to Howard and Joop R. > N> I just quote a little from my "Perseverance in Dhamma": > Only a Buddha can teach about what is true in the ultimate sense: > > E: Are you a Buddha Nina? N: You ask this because you hear the word ultimate. Ultimate is a translation of paramattha dhamma. Citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Citta, cetasika and rupa are the conditioned dhammas of our life, and I only want to talk about these now. The Buddha taught these so that we would verify their truth. E: ....We have to apply > what we learn by being mindful and by developing understanding of > nåma and rúpa. > E: How? N: We remember what we heard and consider more realities such as seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, which occur all the time. Firm remembrance is a condition for the arising of sati. Our understanding should become firm and steadfast. This takes many lives, I do not pretend to have firm understanding. E: < When we close our eyes, the world and all the people in it do > not appear. Our thinking of the world is conditioned by the seeing > of visible object. > E: hmm what about ignorance? N: Ignorance is a latent tendency, deeply accumulated. It arises with each akusala citta. By developing understanding there will be less ignorance of realities. E: How can the object condition our > thinking? Does the object have power over the mind? N: Object condition is one of the conditions taught in the Abhidhamma, book of the Patthana, conditions. Each citta experiences an object, and the object conditions the citta. Hearing experiences sound, and sound condiitons hearing by being its object. Attractive objects invite lobha, unpleasant objects invite dosa, and that is because of our defilements. Objects conquer us, we are overcome by objects. The arahat is unaffected by objects, be they pleasant or unpleasant. He is not overcome by objects. He is conquerer, not conquered. There are beautiful suttas about this subject. > .... > N> For the development of insight, vipassanå, we should first of all > know that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing > experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing > does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, > those are cittas that are thinking, different from hearing. > > E: Are there 6 consciousness or 1? N: 89 types or 121. They can be classified in many ways. When we classify them as sixfold they are classified according to the contacts through the six doors. These are details, but one thing is sure: there is not one long lasting citta. They arise because of conditions and pass away extremely fast. > N > When there are the right conditions for the arising of sati it > can be aware of any reality that appears, also of akusala. Sati > does not arise in the same process of cittas as the akusala cittas, > but after the akusala cittas have just fallen away, the > characteristic of akusala dhamma can be object of sati and at that > moment understanding of it can develop. > > > E: I thought Sati must be unbroken. Here above you seem > to imply it goes on and off? N: Yes, see above about citta. Sati accompanies kusala citta, arising within a process of cittas. Here some basic understanding about processes is very useful. Otherwise we may think that sati is long lasting. We may try to make it last, which is impossible. It is impermanent and anatta. Nina. 35031 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death. Hi Anthony, op 01-08-2004 03:20 schreef antony272b2 op antony272b@h...: > How long does it take for all the living cells in the body (including > the brain) to die after the time there is no pulse? N:Living cells is a medical term, but the Abhidhamma gives a different perspective. They are rupas, dhammas that do not know or experience anything, different from nama, the dhamma that experiences. When the dying consciousness falls away kamma does not produce any more rupas, nor do the other factors of citta and nuitrition produce any more rupas. But temperature still produces rupas in what we call a corpse. A: This gradual > process presents a problem with the idea of instant rebirth although I > do strongly believe in rebirth after reading Paticcasamuppadda > (Dependent Origination) by Mahasi Sayadaw about death-bed visions. N: No problem. The dying-consciousness falls away and is immediately succeeded by rebirth-consciousness of the next life. It has nothing to do with the corpse. It is actually just like now: one citta arises, falls away and is immediately succeeded by the next one. This is contiguity-condition. We are in the cycle. Understanding this moment helps to understand D.O. Next week more about this. Nina. 35032 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: death and listening. Hi, Nina (and all) - In a message dated 8/1/04 2:06:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, Eric, Azita, Christine, > op 31-07-2004 20:38 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >>N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual understanding grows. > >>This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition for > practice, > >>patipatti. > >============================ > >Okay, it's clear what the pariyatti is. But what, Nina, and all > >others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the practice - > >that the > >pariyatti "forms up the condition for"? > N: Inspired by Azita's and Christine's good posts, I shall give an example. > Yesterday while hiking, we saw the corpse of a yound wild boar. I had > attachment to its beauty (the stripes on its back were so cute), and > aversion because of the flies on it. I then remembered suttas. especially > Theragatha,: "As is that body, so this body will be." This brings us back to > reality now. What are we? Only citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling > away. There is actually life and death at each moment, also now. If there > are enough conditions accumulated such happenings can be a reminder for sati > and pañña to consider dhamma now and be aware of it, so that there can be > direct understanding. But I must add that its development is a long process > and that we cannot expect a quick result of the development. But anyway it > is beneficial to reflect on and contemplate nama and rupa as they appear > now, and also to develop the "Perfections". > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, certainly, Nina - reflecting on obtained knowledge, enables the arising of such knowledge when it is usable. This is true of all sorts of knowledge. Elementary mathematical knowledge, for example, often arises in specific, relevant circumstances. But recollection of the Dhamma at appropriate times, something most certaily wonderful and beneficial, amounts to fallout from listening, understanding, and pondering. But it does not constitute practice. What is still required are actions pursuant to that recalled knowledge. Are listening and considering the only volitional actions the Buddha recommended? Are they the *main* practices he recommended? Does one develop sila merely as fallout from hearing about it and thinking about it? Does one develop samadhi merely as fallout from hearing and thinking about it? Are intellectual knowledge and its pondering the only sources of wisdom? I don't believe that the Buddha taught what amounts to positive answers to these questions. I don't believe that the Dhamma is a "one-trick pony". ------------------------------------------------- > It all begins with listening, and so I was glad with Rob K's quote. A good > reminder that sati is also anatta, non-self. it cannot be manipulated. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm. It seems to me that 'manipulated' is a loaded term. Is the volitional effort to listen and understand a "manipulation"? If we can do that, we can do other things as well. We can do *all* those things that the Buddha taught us to do. Yes - it all begins with listening. But it doesn't end there. -------------------------------------------------- > When we listen, and this also includes reading suttas, we come to > understand > that citta, cetasika and rupa occur now, in daily life. We come to > understand more what kusala is, what akusala. How we need the Abhidhamma and > also the consideration of these realities when they occur. When looking at a > corpse there are so many types of cittas, akusala and some kusala, but > kusala is very rare. A concurrence of many conditions are necessary for the > arising of kusala citta with understanding. Howard, you will always stress: > training is necessary. As I see it: all the moments of listening, > considering, practising dana, sila and mental development, and these include > the ten bases of kusala, in our life are the training. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. But what is mental development, and why does it arise? Does it arise from listening and pondering only? Did the Buddha not recommend deliberate internal actions to be taken? ---------------------------------------------- They are conditions> > that are accumulated so that direct understanding of dhammas can arise and > lead to enlightenment. -------------------------------------------- Howard: How do these conditions come about? Merely by listening and pondering? Is that what the Buddha taught? ------------------------------------------- > Howard, you have been discussing samatha with Jon. I would like to add > something. The subjects of samatha such as mindfulness of death, maranasati, > have the word sati. This, as I see it, has everything to do with > satipatthana, the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. As I > showed above: maranasati brings us back to awareness of reality now. Also > before the Buddha's time people practised samatha, but the Buddha gave a new > dimension to all those meditation subjects. Whatever he taught, the goal was > always: eradication of wrong view of self and other defilements through the > development of understanding now. Thus, whenever we read about samatha or > meditation subjects we should not forget this goal. Also for those who could > attain jhana the goal was the same. They should not take their development > of samatha and jhanacitta for self. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, agreed. ----------------------------------------- > I shall write more to Joop R about the social aspects of the Dhamma. This > is > nothing else but practice with satipatthana inspired by the whole Tipitaka, > including Abhidhamma! But when I say, satipatthana, I know that direct > awareness and understanding are difficult, still being far from it. But, > even intellectual understanding helps in our life, to understand ourselves > and others, to see the benefit of kusala, the danger of akusala. Those are > conditions for the growth of pañña, and, as I said, we should not wish for > it to grow fast, that slows down the process. > Lodewijk understands your concern that just listening may lead to passivity, > sliding down to laziness, not doing anything. But, he says, it is listening > with the purpose of considering, understanding and applying what one heard > in the circumstances of daily life. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I wholeheartedly approve of and endorse "listening with the purpose of considering, understanding and applying what one heard in the circumstances of daily life." The question is what constitutes applying the knowledge gained through listening and considering. The Buddha included the "how to" as part of his teaching. But if we do not carry that out, then we are not following his Dhamma. ----------------------------------------------- > The above example shows that there are all the time confrontations > desirable > or undesirable, events and our reactions to it with kusala citta or akusala > citta. During a walk, when we visit my father, there are always things > happening. We can learn to live by the Dhamma, we do not have to go far, > Dhamma is everywhere. > Nina. > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35033 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi Howard and Rob K, I fully endorse what Rob is saying here, I am glad hementions this. The generosity of Kh Sujin and herfriends strikes us every time we are in Thailand, also last time, and I wrote about it in my Perseverance in the Dhamma: Nina. op 01-08-2004 16:30 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > One time Khun Duang Duen reserved a seat for me on the India > pilgrimage, but I eventually had to say no as I had no job. So she > wrote offering the airticket to Thailand and then the whole package > deal to India. I so wanted to go but did manage to refuse. > We went to a school in north Thailand and they gave a huge > donation - something I could not afford even now- I could go on and > on. I only mention these material offerings becuase they cannot be > debated- but the inner giving away of self is something deeper that > I see Sujin do as a way of life. 35034 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Merely Pondering Hi Howard, right, this is exactly what A. Sujin said: listening means also practice. You said to Rob about awareness of hardness: N: Respectfully butting in. No, this is not the point. It is mindfulness and understanding of hardness as only an element that does not know anything. It is really difficult to know hardness as rupa, we are so used to take it for my hand, for mine, for a thing belonging to me. It takes much considering and awareness in daily life (it has to arise naturally in daily life) over and over again, before we understand a little more hardness as it is. And not only hardness, we should not select any objects. Detachment is necessary right from the beginning. Detachment from an idea of how I think awareness should be, there should not be preference to time, place, certain objects, despising others. So, I would say that listening is already a beginning practice, there is awareness on the level of listening and considering what appears through the six doors. We know all this does not concern mere book knowledge. Nina. P.S. Herman will be happy to see that we are all butting in, I learnt that from Mike. (O, where is he?) op 01-08-2004 17:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The Savakas were called "hearers," because they were the fortunate > ones who had the magnificent opportunity to hear words of Dhamma directly from > the Buddha, and not because all they did was listen. They listened and they > acted. 35035 From: bluescatplayah Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 4:00pm Subject: Introduction I am new to dhammastudygroup. I have practiced Zen for several years and am beginning to practice Vipassana. The Theravada teachings interest me greatly, and finding a sangha to practice would be wonderful, but in my local area there are none, unless they are hiding well. I will happily take part here, if you will have me. Please send anything I need to know to take part in discussions, and if anyone knows of anything going on in Glendale or Phoenix, Arizona, I would be very grateful to know of it. Thank you very much. 35036 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 0:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/1/04 3:53:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard and Rob K, > I fully endorse what Rob is saying here, I am glad hementions this. The > generosity of Kh Sujin and herfriends strikes us every time we are in > Thailand, also last time, and I wrote about it in my Perseverance in the > Dhamma: > in the restaurant where they had invited us. This seems a trivial matter, > but it demonstrates their loving care and kind intention to make things as > agreeable and pleasant as possible for all of us. They show us how > satipaììhåna and all kinds of kusala can be developed in daily life in a > natural way. Acharn Sujin never tires of performing kusala, and, in > particular, the explanation of the Dhamma.> > Nina. > ======================== I wouldn't doubt the kindness, goodness, and devotion to the Dhamma on the part of Ajahn Sujin in the slightest. I would have no reason whatsoever to do so, and considerable reason to believe that she is just as you and Rob and others say. That, of course, has nothing at all to do with what we have been discussing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35037 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Merely Pondering Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/1/04 4:02:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > right, this is exactly what A. Sujin said: listening means also practice. --------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! I certainly do not dispute that studying the Buddha word is part of practice, in fact an essential part - just not all of it. ---------------------------------------- > You said to Rob about awareness of hardness: > > N: Respectfully butting in. No, this is not the point. It is mindfulness and > understanding of hardness as only an element that does not know anything. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, I never suspected that hardness knew anything. :-) ------------------------------------------- It> > is really difficult to know hardness as rupa, we are so used to take it for > my hand, for mine, for a thing belonging to me. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think of hardness as something belonging to me, not even conventionally speaking. --------------------------------------------- It takes much considering> > and awareness in daily life (it has to arise naturally in daily life) over > and over again, before we understand a little more hardness as it is. And > not only hardness, we should not select any objects. Detachment is necessary > right from the beginning. Detachment from an idea of how I think awareness > should be, there should not be preference to time, place, certain objects, > despising others. > So, I would say that listening is already a beginning practice, there is > awareness on the level of listening and considering what appears through the > six doors. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I would also say that it is a beginning practice, and without it there will be no beginning to practice, except to some extent by "dumb luck". --------------------------------------------- We know all this does not concern mere book knowledge. --------------------------------------------- Howard: It is conceptual knowledge, whether it comes from a book or somewhere else. That, of course, doesn't stop it from being essentially important. ------------------------------------------- > Nina. > P.S. Herman will be happy to see that we are all butting in, I learnt that > from Mike. (O, where is he?) > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35038 From: Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Vism.XIV 92 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 92. II. (b) That 'rooted in hate' is of two kinds: (30)-(31) being 'accompanied-by-grief and associated-with-resentment', it is either 'prompted' or 'unprompted'. It should be understood to occur at the times when [consciousness] is either keen [if unprompted] or sluggish [if prompted] in the killing of living things, and so on. 35039 From: Rangana Mudunkotuwa Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abbreviated teaching /was Eternalism on ATI i havent got any messages from any body last week what happen 35040 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: death and listening. Hi Howard, What is fallout? I may misunderstand you. Nina op 01-08-2004 21:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Does one develop sila merely as fallout from hearing > about it and thinking about it? Does one develop samadhi merely as fallout > from > hearing and thinking about it? 35041 From: connieparker Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 9:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 2154 Dear Nina, >> maybe find something in the book of threes to play translator with > N: Which one? so that we do'nt do the same. C: I thought start at the beginning: Bhayasutta.m. I think I lost what I was doing before. Shall I send you something? I think I am getting Narada's Manual of Abhidhamma - from http://www.budaedu.org./en/book/II-02main.php3 in case anyone else wants to ask for one. Laughing... I'm sorry I couldn't get anyone in my group to read "Realities and Concepts" or ADL with me when Sukin sent them. You are not popular! Maybe the Tibetans will help me change that. Perfections will be good to share with them, thank you. That's what I tell myself - look for common ground rather than arguments. Good I'm not reading their book in front of them this first time through. peace, connie 35042 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 9:33pm Subject: Repulsiveness of the body meditation Hi, Been reading Ven. U. Silananda's "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness," a commentary on the Mahasatipatthana sutta. Mindfulness of breathing, of posture and of clear comprehension, come first. These are relatively easy to get together, and I figure if I have an especially good sitting session wherein I gain access concentration I'll carry that with me and be good to go. Now we come to the repulsiveness of the body meditation. A few snippets from the book - The Blessed One to his disciples Further benefits listed are: - conquer boredom in secluded places - conquer delight in sensual pleasures - conquering fear and dread, you will also be able to bear cold, heat hunger, etc, you will have more patience with the climate, food, and different situations - acheivement of the jhanas and supranormal powers Now it suggests first of all I learn what must be known about it from a teacher. Teachers, never mind qualified teachers, are hard to come by in my area. However, I've spoken with Venerable Rahula from the Bhavana Society and he said you can practise just as it is laid out in the scripture, no additional factors needed (read on for those). I have tried this when I first started practising Buddhism and Vipassana, but it did not work to the extent that I had hoped. It was not enough to cut off lust, nor delight for the body or for sensual pleasures. Basically the only thing it did serve was as something comforting to practise. It perhaps even detracted from my spiritual well-being as I did not give myself to it fully. Now, consider this. The commentary by Ven. U. Silananda says this meditation is very involved. You need the "Sevenfold skill of learning," wherein you precedurally recite, first orally, then mentally, the different parts of the body for 165 days and again. For example, were I to start tomorrow, all day, I would be saying "skin teeth nails head hair body hair," that would go on for five days. Then I would reverse it for five days. Then I would recite it both ways for another five days. Then I would move onto the group of 'flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys.' You get the idea. Then after nearly a year of recitating, you move on to learn the color, shape, direction, location, and delimitation of each part. This is learning about how each part exists in relation to the rest of the body. Hence sevenfold skill of learning. That is how, it is said, the body is to be contemplated on. Then we have the even MORE involved 'tenfold skill of paying attention'. This is for persistence, not being distracted, contemplating the body part and its repulsiveness instead of its concept, etc. The last three skills are referenced to scripture ,if anyone wants to look:Ang. i.256-258, Ang. iii.435, S. V.113. It is suggested these suttas be read and their advice followed. I think I can find these suttas before the ~ one year of my recitation is up. Then you go to a secluded place and begin recitation and contemplation of the body parts, continuing until one part becomes clearest to you, then you enter jhana. We then have a few different options on how to proceed with shamatha and vipassana, but ultimately this leads to nibbana. It says meditators can only reach the first jhana reflecting on repulsiveness, but can gain higher attainments with more in depth contemplation, thus the need for the Tenfold Skill of paying attention and so on. So, all that said, I am a somewhat timid person but I think, I have to hope I have the capability to contemplate down to the bones and marrow. I've seen bits of it at times, I know I can do it :) So, in case you all don't know, I am 'enrolled' in a day treatment program for mental illness which I am mandated to go to by the state of New York. Now they want you to go to four groups a day to get treatment, but on the patients' bill of rights there it says, you may practise religion. So I very well may go in tomorrow, sit myself down in the corner, roll up a pant leg, and begin reciting "skin, teeth, nails, body hair, head hair" like there's no tomorrow And the 'me' that went to groups and took talk therapy may very well be dead. And off topic, I've been studying the Vissudhimagga and taking notes, now at times I have a lot of difficulty *understanding* things, but I have decided that it's appropriate for me to take up one of the thirteen ascetic practises. I have chosen the 'sitter's practise.' That is undertaken with the volition 'I refuse to lie down.' So, sleep, laziness, and Mara will hopefully have less of a hold on me, and it will be for the benefit of my meditation. Any comments, thoughts, suggestions, ideas, are more than welcome. Thanks guys ;0) 35043 From: connieparker Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 9:54pm Subject: Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Hi, Joop. There is a 2 part talk by BBodhi on THE SOCIAL TEACHINGS OF THE BUDDHA on the www.budaedu.org website. I think the right page url is http://www.budaedu.org.tw/ghosa/C016/?lang=en&L=0/ peace, connie 35044 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 11:11pm Subject: Re: Merely Pondering --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > As I see it, restricting practice to hearing and pondering the > teachings constitutes a replacement of the Buddhadhamma by a "pseudo-dhamma". Now > merely studying and pondering is not something bad. All the quotes you have provided still, in my opinion, present a view > of Dhamma practice as consisting only of studying the teachings and pondering > them, =========== dear howard, You wrote that "I see that position as a > substitute for the full Buddhadhamma, which also included strong efforts at > maintaining ongoing mindfulness, guarding the senses, avoiding evil and doing > good, cultivating the mind through samatha and vipassana bhavana, and so on and""" So I gave some examples of Khun Sujin recommending effort and such good actions as generosity. Now why is being generous not "avoiding evil, doing good", why is it psuedo-dhamma? Or she is often speaking about maranasati - meditation on death. Is it that you don't believe she actually practices this meditation, she simply speaks about it? RobertK 35045 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 11:36pm Subject: Re: Merely Pondering --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > As I see it, restricting practice to hearing and pondering the > teachings constitutes a replacement of the Buddhadhamma by a "pseudo-dhamma". ,snip>I do not believe that is what the Buddha taught. > The Savakas were called "hearers," because they were the fortunate > ones who had the magnificent opportunity to hear words of Dhamma directly from > the Buddha, and not because all they did was listen. They listened and they > acted. > ========== Dear Howard, Do you have to act to understand? The buddha in many hundred suttas talks about the salayatana (six sense bases)EG. Bodhi p1186 "bhikkus without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye..ear...nose...one is incapable of destroying suffering..." Book IV samyutta nikaya. What act is needed to understand eye and seeing and visible object? These elements are occuring right now and I am certain they can be understood - with direct insight- right where I am. I don't have to go to another place or do something to make seeing arise. But I think you disagree - this is what you would call pseudo-dhamma. What actions do you think must be done to directly know seeing? RobertK 35046 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 0:24am Subject: To Rangana Dear Rangana, --- Rangana Mudunkotuwa wrote: > i havent got any messages from any body last week > what happen .... Welcome to DSG. Last week Christine did reply and give the link to the website which has suttas in Sinhala. (See below). As this is an English discussion group, most of us have little if any familiarity with what else is available in Sinhala on line. I suggest you key in ‘Sinhala discussion group Buddhism’ or something like that into ‘google’. I just tried and it brought up several entries, but you’d have more idea of whether they’re any use to you. We do have some lurking members from Sri Lanka and also Ven Samahita lives in Sri Lanka. In due course, they may give you further suggestions. (Ven Samahita has just left for 3mths vassa, so won’t be around for this time). Meanwhile, as your English is fine for this group, why not share a little about yourself and your interest in the Dhamma? Many of us have spent long periods in Sri Lanka and would be glad to hear where you live and to know what questions or comments you have on any of the discussions here or any new thread of your own. Metta, Sarah ======= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:24:37 -0000 Subject: [dsg] For Rangana Mudunkotuwa >Hello Rangana, There are translations of the suttas in Pali, English, and Sinhala at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/ but probably you were already aware of that site? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rangana Mudunkotuwa" wrote: > hi friends > > i am sinhalese lady > dont you have any thing in sinhala > > thanks 35047 From: Charles Thompson Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 5:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction ----- Original Message ----- From: bluescatplayah To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 7:00 PM Subject: [dsg] Introduction I am new to dhammastudygroup. I have practiced Zen for several years and am beginning to practice Vipassana. The Theravada teachings interest me greatly, and finding a sangha to practice would be wonderful, but in my local area there are none, unless they are hiding well. I will happily take part here, if you will have me. Please send anything I need to know to take part in discussions, and if anyone knows of anything going on in Glendale or Phoenix, Arizona, I would be very grateful to know of it. Thank you very much. 35048 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 0:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi Howard, The Net dropped out again for a day. Good thing I don't depend on it :-) Thanks for your post. Yes, you did read my intentions correctly, but if I could elaborate some more. I know James and you and others do not require defense, you are all quite capable of skillfully verbalizing your understandings of the Buddha's teachings and how they relate to your experience. Rather than defending you, I was trying to encourage you :-). That the discussion has deteriorated into a defense of K Sujin has given me reason to believe that my initial, but unspoken, assessment of what was going on was not far off the mark. If this group is actually about studying, propagating the teachings of or otherwise sanctifying K Sujin, I would prefer that to be made known. Like you, I am sure she is a wonderful person. But that is not why I am part of this group :-) Be encouraged!!!! Herman -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Sunday, 1 August 2004 11:34 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi, Herman (and Nina, James, Jon, and Robert) - In a message dated 8/1/04 8:47:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi all, > > My internet has been down for the last two days. Quite a blessing > really!! > > I wonder what is going on. Recently James made some comments to Nina and > Jon replied. Now Howard gets a reply from RobK when asking Nina a > question. I understand that some folks here have formed special > friendships, but... > > this is the advice the Buddha gives as to who is a friend. > > "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable > comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, easily > &without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the > opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on contentment, on > seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on > concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge &vision > of release. " > > The whole sutta is Anguttara Nikaya IX.1 > Sambodhi Sutta > Self-awakening > > It is to be addressed to members of non-Buddhist sects. > > It finishes with: He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so > as to cut off distractive thinking. He should develop the perception of > inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving > inconstancy, the perception of not-self is made firm. One perceiving > not-self attains the uprooting of the conceit, 'I am' -- Unbinding in > the here &now." > > It is clear I have a number of very good friends here. I am very > grateful to them. > > Herman > > ============================= Thank you for your post, Herman. It seems that you are looking to "defend" James and me, though maybe I misunderstand. If I'm correct, I'd like to say that I certainly appreciate such kindness, but I'd like to add that I really think it's very much okay for "third parties" to provide responses. I do that myself not infrequently. Specifically, I have no problem with Robert's reply to me. I disagree with him on this matter, but that's fine. So long as we on the list remain cordial, or, better, remain good friends, there will be no problem. What I find very welcome in your post, Herman, is that I think it is aimed at maintaining an openness and a "live and let live" attitude on the list. This is really important for the proper interaction of friends in the Dhamma. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35049 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hello Herman, The purpose of this group is made quite plain to everyone before joining - on the home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ "A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition. The discussions include matters of both theory and practice, with the aim of developing precise understanding of the realities of the present moment. The group started in Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket." It would be good to get on with it. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 35050 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala and akusala and bits and pieces from dhamma on weekend Dear Matt & Jaran, --- mattroke wrote: > Rather than a person knows if it is satipatthana or not, is it not wisdom that has arisen and knows the moment? The moment with wisdom is different from the moment without wisdom, even if it is very fleeting and followed by much thinking and doubt. And such wisdom >is an indicator that there is some Dhamma understanding. ... S: Your answer was spot on, I thought. Your reply on the ‘Baby and Bathwater’ thread was also excellent. As you wrote: M: >There is only one eight-fold noble path and there are no variations of it. There are however countless wrong paths that one can follow before coming across the eight-fold path. Just because a person has intention to follow the eight-fold path does not mean they are on it. How many people in life have got lost following the wrong paths when they truly believed it was taking them in the right >direction? ***** S: I greatly look forward to more of your comments on any threads and I’d be glad if you’d tell us a little about yourself such as where you come from and you come to offer such good insights here;-). Jaran, good to read your helpful question and the replies. It’s always good to see you around here. Hope you stay longer this time!! I was listening to a tape at the weekend and the same question as yours was asked -- about how one knows what one’s present level of understanding is. K.Sujin’s reply: ‘When there’s no direct awareness yet, one knows that awareness does not arise, but when awareness is aware, it’s different, so right understanding is there which can understand the difference between the moment of having and not having sati (awareness) arise.’ This was almost the same as Matt’s reply above. The questioner then asked about when such understanding isn’t sufficiently developed. K.Sujin: ‘So one begins to understand what is said about avijja (ignorance). Lots of avijja. It’s only hardness . It’s there. No one. So how can panna (understanding) grow? By having more sati -- when it arises, it experiences, it depends on how much understanding of it arises which can gradually eliminate the idea of self who is aware of that object or who is trying to know or who is trying to do something in order to know, not just another reality which has arisen already. ‘There can be awareness of when there is and isn’t awareness. It begins to see the difference and understanding develops because it knows these are the objects of right understanding because when it appears, so it understands that it should know more and more discern the true nature of reality which appears. ..... S: Earlier there was a discussion about the difference between theoretical knowledge and direct understanding. K.Sujin said: ‘While one is thinking about the characteristic , it’s not the moment of understanding the characteristic because the translation of the word ‘satipatthana’ in Thai is ‘ralyk ruu’ and usually when the Thais use this this term, we think about a concept - ‘ralyk’- ‘when?’, ‘where?’, ‘what?’, see? But it’s not like that because ‘ralyk’ means the characteristic which is now appearing and ‘ruu’ here -- it begins to grow, little by little, by developing the understanding of the characteristic which appears as nama or rupa only. ‘We’re used to having the idea of a whole body, my finger or my foot, but at that moment there is no foot, there is no finger, it’s only hardness and the reality which experiences hardness. This is so true, that one’s right understanding should develop to that degree. There is nothing at all except for whatever appears. 'One begins to understand the meaning of ‘atta sanna’ (perception of self) - the memory of self, of body, of citta (consciousness) as my citta......’ ***** S: I like this - ‘There is nothing at all except for whatever appears.’ The world, othes we find so important, socially engaged Buddhism or other concepts - in truth, nothing at all apart from the nama or rupa appearing now that can be known. (I think Howard was indicating the same point too, so we can all agree here, perhaps;-)). I would like to add that while it’s true that gradually one can see there is less doubt or the nature of one’s questions changes, it is only by understanding precisely when there is and isn’t any awareness and directly knowing different namas and rupas that the meaning of satipatthana becomes clearer with less thought or concern about self or progress as Nina said. Look forward to more of your helpful comments and questions that we can all reflect on. Metta, Sarah ======= 35051 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > > Thanks for your post. Yes, you did read my intentions correctly, but if > I could elaborate some more. > > I know James and you and others do not require defense, you are all > quite capable of skillfully verbalizing your understandings of the > Buddha's teachings and how they relate to your experience. Rather than > defending you, I was trying to encourage you :-). > > That the discussion has deteriorated into a defense of K Sujin has given > me reason to believe that my initial, but unspoken, assessment of what > was going on was not far off the mark. > > If this group is actually about studying, propagating the teachings of > or otherwise sanctifying K Sujin, I would prefer that to be made known. >=========== Dear Herman, Part of this group description it says "The group started in Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket". Thus every member should have some inkling that the founders of the group and a number of members are friends of Sujin. I posted a quote from Sujin because Eric and Howard were asking: ""In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and Eric, and all) - > ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: > > >E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? > >> ============================ > But what, Nina, and all > others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti """ Note that Howard asked Nina AND ALL. If he had specified Nina or Eric had not asked about A. Sujin I would not have replied or I would have used my own words. I thought Eric and Howard wanted Sujins interpretations, rather than mine. Howard felt that this was destroying the Dhamma as his quote from the peg sutta indicates. Was it wrong to investigate this? On this list there are maybe 7 or 8 occasions apart from this week where I refer to the writings of Sujin, out of more than a 1000 posts I made. I rejoined this week after promising Nina that I would, however if it is going to be slights and arguments again then I leave. It simply leads to devaluation of the Dhamma. RobertK 35052 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 1:50am Subject: RE: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi Herman, Hope you don’t mind a quick ‘butt in’-- not any defense of anyone;-) --- Herman Hofman wrote: >Rather than > defending you, I was trying to encourage you :-). ... S:Just as there are many reasons for opting out, there are also many for opting in - usually only the writer knows. I appreciate your encouragement to Howard and others for example;-) ... > If this group is actually about studying, propagating the teachings of > or otherwise sanctifying K Sujin, I would prefer that to be made known. ... S:As Chris pointed out, the home page description always rules - always the Buddha’s teachings, however we understand or come to understand them.... .... > Like you, I am sure she is a wonderful person. But that is not why I am > part of this group :-) > > Be encouraged!!!! ... S: ;-) Keep up the encouragement too. We all learn from discussion. I liked this comment of Howard’s a lot: H:>So long as we on the list > remain > cordial, or, better, remain good friends, there will be no problem. > What I find > very welcome in your post, Herman, is that I think it is aimed at > maintaining > an openness and a "live and let live" attitude on the list. This is > really > important for the proper interaction of friends in the Dhamma. .... S: I also liked the following comments along similar lines from Andrew T (or Cooran Andrew): A: Metta, Sarah p.s Herman, I’m always happy (and many others too I’m sure) to discuss any point of dhamma with you without any mention of A.Sujin;-) ====== 35053 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction Dear Friend, Welcome to DSG and thank you for introducing yourself: --- bluescatplayah wrote: > I am new to dhammastudygroup. I have practiced Zen for several years > and am beginning to practice Vipassana. The Theravada teachings > interest me greatly, and finding a sangha to practice would be > wonderful, but in my local area there are none, unless they are > hiding well. I will happily take part here, if you will have me. ... S: We're delighted to have you here. The list is very active at the moment, so just read what you can manage, ask your own questions or add any comments. sometimes the best thing for newcomers to do is to just start a new thread and follow that until 'settled in', I think. If you look at posts under 'New to the list......' in Useful Posts, it may help too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If you wish to check some of the Pali terms being used, it may help to print out this simple glossary from the files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms ..... > Please send anything I need to know to take part in discussions, and > if anyone knows of anything going on in Glendale or Phoenix, > Arizona, I would be very grateful to know of it. Thank you very much. .... One of our active members, James, is from Arizona too, living in Egypt. Perhaps he'll let you know in due course about the Thai temple in Arizona which he's been affiliated with for a long time. What else do you need to know to take part? We ask all newbies (and oldies occasionally) to read the Guidelines in the Files carefully. For example, I know rules are a drag, but we ask everyone here to make it clear in posts who is being addressed, even if it's 'All' and to sign off with a (preferably real) name that we can use to address you with. We also remind (or nag) everyone to 'TRIM' posts. Let any of the mods know off-list if you have any questions or problems . Look forward to hearing more about how you see Vipassana and which aspects of the Theravada teachings appeal to you in particular after you Zen years. Metta, Sarah ====== 35054 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi Swee Boon, Always good to see your participation. --- nidive wrote: > I don't remember any sutta where the Buddha says that there > is no method that can be followed to attain enlightenment. It is > almost heretic. ... I’d be genuinely interested to know whether you read the following sutta as stressing anything other than ‘momentary sati’ or direct momentary understanding of namas and rupas when they appear. Metta, Sarah ====== SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi transl] “Is there a method of exposition, bhikkhus, by means of which a bhikkhu -apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oraltradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a viewafter pondering it* - can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being’?”** <....> “There is a method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith.....apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it - can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth....there is no more for this state of being.’ And what is that method of exposition? Here, bhikkhus, having seen a form with the eye, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internally, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally’; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: “There is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.’ Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?” “No, venerable sir.” “Aren’t these things to be undeerstood by seeing them with wisdom?***” “Yes, venerable sir.” “This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth..there is no more for this state of being.’ "Further, bhikkhus, having heard a sound with the ear......Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internallly, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally’; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: ‘there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.’ Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?”. “No, venerable sir.” “Aren’t these things to be understood by seeing them with wisdom?” “Yes, venerable sir.” "This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it- can declare final knowledge thus: "Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being." ***** * BB note 150: As at 12:68 [Kosambi] ** Pali for this paraAtthi naa kho bhikkhave, pariyàyo ya’n pariyàya’n àgamma bhikkhu a~n~natreva saddhàya a~n~natra- ruciyà a~n~natra anussavà a~n~natra àkàraparivitakkà a~n~natra di.t.thinijjhànakkhantiyà a~n~na’n vyàkareyya: "khii.nà jàti, vusita’n brahmacariya’n, kata’n kara.niiya’n nàpara’n itthattàyàti pajànàmã" ti~n ***dhammà pa?n~nàya disvà veditabbàti ========================== 35055 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Great Disciples" donation offer plus links Dear Antony, I meant to write before to thank you for your very kind offer and to appreciate all your kind deeds. .... --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, > > "Great Disciples of the Buddha" by Ven Nyanaponika and Hellmuth Hecker > edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi > > I highly recommend this book for Recollection of Ariya Sangha > (Sanghanussati) .... S: I also like this book a lot. Funny, I was sure we had a copy, but have just looked and looked and can’t find it. Perhaps it was lent or given away. Let me have one more look and if it doesn’t turn up, I’ll gratefully contact you off-list. Anumodana. .... > > Here is my favorite paragraph: > > Ananda's Renown <....> >Thus the sheer fact that he lived without > enemies, without rivals, without conflict and tension, borders on a > miracle. This quality is truly a measure of Ananda's uniqueness." .... S: Yes, a great paragraph and very fine example. I’m reminded of the following passage in the Samannaphala Sutta, DN2 (Walsh transl, 63): “ And then, Sire, that monk who is perfected in morality sees no danger from any side owing to his being restrained by morality. Just as a duly-anoninted Khattiya king, having conquered his enemies, by that very fact sees no danger from any side, so the monk, on account of his morality, sees no danger anywhere. He experiences in himself the blameless bliss that comes from maintaining this Ariyan morality. In this way, Sire, he is perfected in morality.” Also in Sonadanda Sutta, DN4, 22: “So it is, Brahmin. Wisdom is purified by morality,and morality is purified by wisdom: where one is, the other is, the moral man has wisdom and the wise man has morality, and the combination of morality and wisdom is called the highest thing in the world.” The links you gave below are really some of my favourite wheels. A very good selection. In case anyone is not aware of it, the following is also a very useful dictionary (3 hard copy volumes) now on line for an incredible amount of detail and reference sources for any disciples or proper names from the Pali texts: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/dic_idx.html Antony, I’ll look forward to reading more of your contributions and hearing about any other kind acts you perform - even small ones in your daily life. Sharing them with us can be a ‘birthday gift’ for us all;-) Metta, Sarah ======= > Much of this material is online: > > Life of Sariputta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html > > Life of Maha-Moggallana > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html > > Buddhist Women at the time of the Buddha > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel292.html > > Maha Kaccana - Master of Doctrinal Exposition > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel405.html > > Maha Kassapa - Father of the Sangha > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel345.html =============== 35056 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 3:00am Subject: Re: Precepts and Mouse Tales Hello Connie, Herman, all, Well, another field mouse has entrapped itself. It is just as tiny and just as cute as the other one which I relocated. This time there wasn't going to be any traipsing around the neighbourhood and ending up in a suburban park thirty kilometres away. This time, I was going to be firm, and simply take him for a short ride, and, with compassion and metta, put him out of the car on the edge of a paddock and shoo him away. This time it didn't work either. It WOULD have worked except for the wrinkling pink nose, the tiny paws, the brown eyes and the wiggling whiskers. Now I have a Mouse House (quite nice really, reduced especially for me the Lady said, to $25) - it has a picture window (half the frontage) which lifts up, solid chipboard for the rest (part of which lifts up), and air holes drilled across the top (not large enough to escape through). I have superior pet odor control bedding (ideal for small animals and reptiles) made from virgin wood pulp ($9)(pine and cedar shavings affect the blood chemistry and liver function of rodents) :-). I have Pets Paradise quality lucerne, oats, bran (and goodness knows what else) Mouse and Guinea Pig Mix ($10). I have found a club "The Australian Rodent Fanciers Society". Lots of information, and best of all - they have an Adoption Service for 'rehoming' mice and rats!!!! But I think I'll keep the little fella, just for a little while, to see if any of his relatives want to join him. Does anyone know how to tell girl mice from boy mice? I think They know. And how does one tell if, say, a little girl mouse is in the 'family way'? To allay alarm, and to prove this isn't as Off Topic as it might at first seem - may I say things like the First Precept, Rebirth, Sentient Beings, Kamma, Metta and Karuna, and Cute Little Fella.:-) Andrew - if worse comes to worst - may I bring the CLF or CLF/s for the Cooran weekend? Remember the Bhikkhu who was a Flea? remember the frog who heard the Dhamma? (well, yes, he did get squashed) and remember the bats who heard the Bhikkhus discussing the Abhidhamma? (I forget what happened to them) - but, we could write a new sutta about the Field Mice that heard the Dhamma Discussion at Cooran. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 35057 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 3:37am Subject: Pa auk sayadaw retreat in the U.S in 2005 Dear friends If you take interest, Please go to http://paauk.org/public/blogs/paupdate.html -------------------------------- Pa Auk Spring 2005 Retreat - Update The dates for the retreat have firmed up. Here's the text of the Announcement: 8 Week Meditation Retreat led by Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw from Pa Auk Monastery in Southern Burma What: This retreat will focus on the development of strong and powerful concentration (i.e. jhanas) as the foundation for the deep Vipassana practice that Sayadaw teaches when the meditator is sufficiently concentrated (website: paauk.org). When: February 24, 2005 through March 23, 2005; and March 24, 2005 through April 21, 2005 Where: Four Springs Meditation Center Two hours north of San Francisco, near Calistoga (Map and driving instructions provided upon registration) Participants: Only 35 spaces available; register early to reserve your space. Registration available for the first month, the second month, or for both months. Preference given to two-month yogis. Format: This is a monastic retreat. Yogi?fs will be asked to follow the 8 precepts, including not eating after noon. Meditation periods will likely be at least one hour each, and may be longer. experience with at least one silent 10-day retreat is highly recommended. Cost: Single: $49 per night (i.e. $1479 per month) Double: $37 per night (i.e. $1110 per month) A very limited number of singles will be available on a medical needs and first come first serve basis. Teachers and staff will offer their services on a dana basis. Reservations: A non-refundable deposit is due on or before October 1, 2004. All spaces are reserved only upon receipt of the deposit payment. Double room deposit: $600 per month; Single room deposit $750 per month. Deposit will be returned to you only if your space is filled by someone on the wait list on or before February 20, 2004. Questions: Please send message to: Pa_Auk@y... Send applications and checks, made payable to ?gPa Auk Retreat?h, to: Pa Auk Retreat Committee, 568 Arlington Ave, Berkeley CA 94707 PLEASE NOTE: This retreat is being offered by a group of senior students who have invited Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw to teach here in America. As such, we must depend on the early registration of a significant number of participating yogis in order to collect the funds necessary to pay the deposit on the retreat facilities. Your cooperation and support is deeply appreciated. (we are now accepting applications and deposits) This retreat will focus on the development of strong and powerful concentration (jhanas), as the foundation for the deep Vipassana practice that Sayadaw teaches when the meditator is sufficiently concentrated. The retreat will be limited to 40 yogis. It is expected to fill quickly. If you are interested in attending and would like to be put on the list to receive an application, please email Kim McLaughlin at kimmcl@p.... (Do not send a 'REPLY' to the address from which you received this email message.) There will be slots reserved for people who can attend for one month only. We would like to direct you to our new web site: www.paauk.org Please let us know if you want your name added to the email list for announcements of upcoming events or classes in the Pa Auk system. May all beings be liberated. Wishing you peace, Kim McLaughlin 35058 From: Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 0:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: death and listening. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/2/04 1:01:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > What is fallout? I may misunderstand you. > Nina ==================== Oh. It's just another word for "consequence" or "result". Nothing special - at least I had nothing special in mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35059 From: Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Merely Pondering Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/2/04 2:38:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > As I see it, restricting practice to hearing and pondering > the > >teachings constitutes a replacement of the Buddhadhamma by > a "pseudo-dhamma". > ,snip>I do not believe that is what the Buddha taught. > > The Savakas were called "hearers," because they were the > fortunate > >ones who had the magnificent opportunity to hear words of Dhamma > directly from > >the Buddha, and not because all they did was listen. They listened > and they > >acted. > >========== > Dear Howard, > Do you have to act to understand? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, sometimes I do, the acting being a thinking over and over and relating the material to context and to other things. But that isn't what I meant. I wasn't referring to acting to understand. I was referring to listening to what the Buddha said and then following up on it by carrying out his instructions to cultivate the mind and to do good in the world. ------------------------------------------------------- > The buddha in many hundred suttas talks about the salayatana (six > sense bases)EG. Bodhi p1186 "bhikkus without directly knowing and > fully understanding the eye..ear...nose...one is incapable of > destroying suffering..." Book IV samyutta nikaya. > What act is needed to understand eye and seeing and visible object? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Paying attention. Monitoring the mind. And also - and you'll like this one, perhaps - purposely reminding oneself of what one has learned from the Dhamma with regard to no-self, impermanence, etc. Purposeful action is required to establish habits. ------------------------------------------------------- > These elements are occuring right now and I am certain they can be > understood - with direct insight- right where I am. I don't have to > go to another place or do something to make seeing arise. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Don't need to go anywhere. But *do* need to exert effort in specific ways. ------------------------------------------------------- > But I think you disagree - this is what you would call pseudo-dhamma. > What actions do you think must be done to directly know seeing? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is "knowing" seeing and there is KNOWING seeing. The Buddha *did* teach actions, again and again and again. I've already listed some. Among those I didn't mention are ... WARNING: Filthy language coming up! ;-)) ... formal sitting and walking meditation in which there is a purposeful reduction in the areas of experience one attends to. ------------------------------------------------------- > RobertK > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35060 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 5:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi Robert, >I rejoined this week after promising Nina that I would, however if >it is going to be slights and arguments again then I leave. >It simply leads to devaluation of the Dhamma. I respectfully decline any part in the motivations for your comings or goings. Still, I feel much grief that all this is happening. And sublimated rage as well. I hope we all find what we are looking for. Herman 35061 From: Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/2/04 4:25:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Howard, > > The Net dropped out again for a day. Good thing I don't depend on it :-) > > Thanks for your post. Yes, you did read my intentions correctly, but if > I could elaborate some more. > > I know James and you and others do not require defense, you are all > quite capable of skillfully verbalizing your understandings of the > Buddha's teachings and how they relate to your experience. Rather than > defending you, I was trying to encourage you :-). --------------------------------------------- Howard: Herman, I certainly appreciate your encouragement and your friendship. ---------------------------------------------- > > That the discussion has deteriorated into a defense of K Sujin has given > me reason to believe that my initial, but unspoken, assessment of what > was going on was not far off the mark. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, there is bound to be some defense of a person, Khun Sujin, whom one holds in very high esteem, when some of her positions are being challenged. That is quite understandable. Of course, it is very much to the good if the discussions can be maintained as impersonal, with just issues and positions being discussed. There is considerable opportunity for that being the case when the discussants are all good people and friends, and when the person whose ideas are being discussed is also a good person. So I don't see very much of a problem here to be concerned with. The interesting, and somewhat ironic, thing, from my perspective, is that, despite my frequently expressed considerable disagreement on several core issues, elements of the K. Sujin perspective, especially as expressed from time to time here by Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert and numerous others have added a richness to my understanding of the Dhamma. In particular, I've imbibed a clearer perspective on the "no control" issue, seeing it in a more subtle, middle-way fashion than I did recently. In fact, not long ago, Jon (I think it was) may have made note of this. Part of the clarification of my perspective on this is due to consideration of what has been expressed on DSG. The rest is due to first-hand internal experiencing of the impersonality of dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------- > > If this group is actually about studying, propagating the teachings of > or otherwise sanctifying K Sujin, I would prefer that to be made known. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is obvious that a core constituency of DSG consists of admirers of Khun Sujin. But there are numerous others who have no history at all with her and her writings, and some who are diametrically opposed to some of her takes on the Dhamma. And there are some members who are as enthousiastic about other teachers including Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, S.N. Goenka, and founders of IMS as "the Khun Sujin people" are about her. That's all just fine, I think. If DSG ever became intolerant of different views of the Dhamma, it wouldn't remain a hospitable "place," but I don't see this happening. I just see honest disagreement on issues, so I am at ease. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Like you, I am sure she is a wonderful person. But that is not why I am > part of this group :-) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Of course not. Nor I. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Be encouraged!!!! > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Herman! Much appreciated!! ---------------------------------------------------- > > Herman > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35062 From: Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/2/04 4:31:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Herman, > Part of this group description it says "The group started in > Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the Thai > Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket". Thus every member > should have some inkling that the founders of the group and a number > of members are friends of Sujin. I posted a quote from Sujin because > Eric and Howard were asking: > > ""In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Nina (and Eric, and all) - > >ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: > >>>E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? > >>>============================ > >But what, Nina, and all > >others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti """ > > Note that Howard asked Nina AND ALL. If he had specified Nina or > Eric had not asked about A. Sujin I would not have replied or I > would have used my own words. I thought Eric and Howard wanted > Sujins interpretations, rather than mine. > > Howard felt that this was destroying the Dhamma as his quote from > the peg sutta indicates. Was it wrong to investigate this? > On this list there are maybe 7 or 8 occasions apart from this week > where I refer to the writings of Sujin, out of more than a 1000 > posts I made. > I rejoined this week after promising Nina that I would, however if > it is going to be slights and arguments again then I leave. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I presume, Robert, that you do *not* consider our recent conversations to include "slights and arguments." I would be happy to have you confirm that. --------------------------------------------------- > It simply leads to devaluation of the Dhamma. > > RobertK > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35063 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > How is that kusala concentration to be> > > developed, in your view? > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > By several means: Study and contemplation of the Dhamma and > development of a base of sila, to produce a calm and well directed mind, > regular > samatha meditation (on appropriate objects), because calm supports > concentration, > and cultivation of the habit of clearly attending to whatever arises as > much as possible. > --------------------------------------------- Yes, in fact the development of any form of kusala including of course, and most importantly, awareness and insight (your third category above) will result in the development of kusala concentration. On the other hand, a practice of concentrating on a single object is not likely to involve any kusala, as I understand it. This kind of concentration is relatively easy to develop, but is not something that is inherently kusala (or leading to kusala), a point that I think is often overlooked. Kusala citta is a rare occurrence, and cannot be made to arise by going through some kind of procedure or activity designed to create the appropriate conditions. What are the right conditions for the development of kusala? In the case of kusala in general (i.e., of all levels), one of the most important factors must surely be one's previously performed kusala, that is to say, our present accumulated tendency for kusala. However, that this is something about which little (or nothing) can be done; as you rightly point out, we must take ourselves as we find ourselves. In the case of kusala of the level of insight, another important factor is repeated listening to and reflecting on the teachings, since it is such a deep and difficult thing to comprehend. Of course, there are many other conditions necessary also, including a sense of urgency, and right effort. However, these are factors that depend very largely on hearing and considering the true dhamma. For example, if a person correctly understands the teachings and the significance of what the Buddha says, the necessary motivation for the development of insight (sense of urgency, effort) is already there, there will be no the need to generate any further sense of urgency or make further effort. On the other hand, unless the intellectual understanding of the teachings is correct in the first place, any 'sense of urgency' or 'effort' brought to bear will be misdirected. Yes, there is some circularity in the whole thing. We should not forget that right effort is a factor that accumulates, grows and strengthens as insight is developed until it becomes a faculty, a power, an enlightenment factor and finally a path factor; it grows in parallel with the skill in insight. Effort as conventionally understood, on the other hand, is something that is required more in the beginning when the skill is less developed, and less and less as time goes on and one becomes more skilled in the particular field until eventually the action becomes 'effortless'. Jon 35064 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 6:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi Sarah, Thanks for your post. Just to clarify. I have no problems with K Sujin, at all. That I do not take anything she says as being authoritative because she said it is hardly a sign of disrespect, right? As for butting in, any post is fair game for everyone as far as I am concerned. Defense and attack go hand in glove. The urge to defend arises from the perception of attack against an object of clinging. I am glad you're not defending anyone, because I'm not attacking anyone :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@y...] Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 6:51 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi Herman, Hope you don't mind a quick 'butt in'-- not any defense of anyone;-) --- Herman Hofman wrote: >Rather than > defending you, I was trying to encourage you :-). ... S:Just as there are many reasons for opting out, there are also many for opting in - usually only the writer knows. I appreciate your encouragement to Howard and others for example;-) ... > If this group is actually about studying, propagating the teachings of > or otherwise sanctifying K Sujin, I would prefer that to be made known. ... S:As Chris pointed out, the home page description always rules - always the Buddha's teachings, however we understand or come to understand them.... .... > Like you, I am sure she is a wonderful person. But that is not why I am > part of this group :-) > > Be encouraged!!!! ... S: ;-) Keep up the encouragement too. We all learn from discussion. I liked this comment of Howard's a lot: H:>So long as we on the list > remain > cordial, or, better, remain good friends, there will be no problem. > What I find > very welcome in your post, Herman, is that I think it is aimed at > maintaining > an openness and a "live and let live" attitude on the list. This is > really > important for the proper interaction of friends in the Dhamma. .... S: I also liked the following comments along similar lines from Andrew T (or Cooran Andrew): A: Metta, Sarah p.s Herman, I'm always happy (and many others too I'm sure) to discuss any point of dhamma with you without any mention of A.Sujin;-) ====== 35065 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 6:47am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi Jon, If a quick answer is possible, is kusala as it relates to kamma the same as it relates to citta? (ie rooted in non-clinging, non-aversion, non-delusion, and leading /conducing to the cessation of citta as opposed to the arising of citta?) Herman 35066 From: Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Jon - I agree with much in the following. In a message dated 8/2/04 9:31:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > > How is that kusala concentration to be> > >>developed, in your view? > >----------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > By several means: Study and contemplation of the Dhamma and > >development of a base of sila, to produce a calm and well directed mind, > > regular > >samatha meditation (on appropriate objects), because calm supports > >concentration, > >and cultivation of the habit of clearly attending to whatever arises as > >much as possible. > >--------------------------------------------- > > Yes, in fact the development of any form of kusala including of course, > and most importantly, awareness and insight (your third category above) > will result in the development of kusala concentration. > > On the other hand, a practice of concentrating on a single object is not > likely to involve any kusala, as I understand it. This kind of > concentration is relatively easy to develop, but is not something that is > inherently kusala (or leading to kusala), a point that I think is often > overlooked. Kusala citta is a rare occurrence, and cannot be made to > arise by going through some kind of procedure or activity designed to > create the appropriate conditions. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, most of the traditional 40 meditation subjects recommended by the Buddha and later by Buddhaghosa are single (conventional) objects. ----------------------------------------------- > > What are the right conditions for the development of kusala? In the case > of kusala in general (i.e., of all levels), one of the most important > factors must surely be one's previously performed kusala, that is to say, > our present accumulated tendency for kusala. However, that this is > something about which little (or nothing) can be done; as you rightly > point out, we must take ourselves as we find ourselves. > > In the case of kusala of the level of insight, another important factor is > repeated listening to and reflecting on the teachings, since it is such a > deep and difficult thing to comprehend. Of course, there are many other > conditions necessary also, including a sense of urgency, and right effort. > However, these are factors that depend very largely on hearing and > considering the true dhamma. For example, if a person correctly > understands the teachings and the significance of what the Buddha says, > the necessary motivation for the development of insight (sense of urgency, > effort) is already there, there will be no the need to generate any > further sense of urgency or make further effort. > > On the other hand, unless the intellectual understanding of the teachings > is correct in the first place, any 'sense of urgency' or 'effort' brought > to bear will be misdirected. Yes, there is some circularity in the whole > thing. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, practice is, indeed, quite circular. Recall our spiral conversations? ----------------------------------------------- > > We should not forget that right effort is a factor that accumulates, grows > and strengthens as insight is developed until it becomes a faculty, a > power, an enlightenment factor and finally a path factor; it grows in > parallel with the skill in insight. Effort as conventionally understood, > on the other hand, is something that is required more in the beginning > when the skill is less developed, and less and less as time goes on and > one becomes more skilled in the particular field until eventually the > action becomes 'effortless'. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I concur. Most of us, of course, are very much begnners. ---------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35067 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 7:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > If a quick answer is possible, is kusala as it relates to kamma the same > as it relates to citta? (ie rooted in non-clinging, non-aversion, > non-delusion, and leading /conducing to the cessation of citta as > opposed to the arising of citta?) The quick answer is 'yes' and 'no' ;-)) It is kusala citta (or more precisely the intention that arises with kusala citta) that is kusala kamma. All kusala cittas are rooted in non-greed and non-hate; however, only those accompanied by panna (wisdom) are rooted in non-delusion (i.e. panna). Not all kusala cittas, and not even all kusala cittas rooted in panna, conduce to the cessation of citta. Strictly speaking, it is only kusala citta of the level of path consciousness (enlightenment) that conduces to the breaking of the cycle of samsara, although it can also be said more generally that kusala citta of the level of satipatthana (i.e., that leads to path consciousness) also breaks down the building blocks. Nina is the expert on this sort of thing, and I'm sure she can explain better. Jon 35068 From: nidive Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 7:26am Subject: Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi Sarah, > I'd be genuinely interested to know whether you read the following > sutta as stressing anything other than `momentary sati' or direct > momentary understanding of namas and rupas when they appear. We are constantly seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. Taking that sutta literally, it could not be talking about "momentary sati". It is talking about sustained and continuous sati. An arahant has perfect sati. An arahant's sati is not "momentary". An arahant is mindful at all moments. How does one train to make sati sustained and continuous? By taking up one of the mindfulness immersed in the body practices. When one takes up one of those practices taught by the Buddha, one trains sati to be sustained and continuous. When sati is sustained and continuous, whether one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches or thinks, if lust is present, he knows that lust is present; if lust is absent, he knows that lust is absent; if hatred is present, he knows that hatred is present; if hatred is absent, he knows that hatred is absent; if delusion is present, he knows that delusion is present; if delusion is absent, he knows that delusion is absent. Seeing thus, one understands with genuine wisdom. Regards, Swee Boon 35069 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 8:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta and spinach Hey Jon, E> Of course Jon. I am not saying it is for everyone. But you are > saying it is for a select few i.e. only the Popeyes! J> Actually, not quite. I'm saying that although spinach is good for everyone, it's not a must, unless you want to be a Popeye (superhero). E> I just want to walk the path Jon. If it is good for everyone, then what is the harm? I mean it reduces bodily stress and mental stress. Also, if it makes one a superhero, what is the harm in recommending it to people in general? I don't see what your aversion to it is, especially after you agreed that it is good!! Now if it is a matter of 'personal' taste, why didn't you just say so from the beginning?! Jon > Sure, the Buddha praised samatha and the jhanas highly, but the important question to be asked is whether he said that the jhanas were necessary for the development of insight now (i.e., insight of a presently arisen dhamma). I'd be interested to hear your views on this. E > I really don't have a view on this, I used too, but it wavers. I tend not to hold my 'conclusions' to tightly as then nothing new can enter. Besides, I have seen 'my reality' change to much to worry about what is 'right'. With that said, I would say that it is a 8 fold path, not a 1 fold, i.e. just SATI. So, Right Concentration is defined as Jhana. Seems we can not get around this. Specifically to your question. IMHO and experience, if the mind is not calm and concentrated, insight will not arise. I am speaking very practicaly here Jon. Concentration must be able to hold or encompass 'feeling', if it cannot then Dependent Origination moves like a lightning bolt. The mind must be still for it to hold or see the present arisen dhamma within a frame of reference. If not, you get 'monkey mind' with much discursive thought. Again, this is my experience. This is why I asked you where is intellectual panna in the seven factors of awakening? PEACE E 35070 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 10:31am Subject: What I heard, on Dependent Origination. Dear group, A. Sujin had a discussion about Dependent Origination ( D.O. )with Jack. Nina. 35071 From: Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 92 Hi Nina, It looks like views in general and self-view in particular only arise with desire. If that is the case how does it happen that we identify with anger, bewilderment and suffering? Also, is there any more to dukkha than grief and resentment? Larry ------------------------- 92. II. (b) That 'rooted in hate' is of two kinds: (30)-(31) being 'accompanied-by-grief and associated-with-resentment', it is either 'prompted' or 'unprompted'. It should be understood to occur at the times when [consciousness] is either keen [if unprompted] or sluggish [if prompted] in the killing of living things, and so on. 35072 From: Andrew Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 4:22pm Subject: Re: Precepts and Mouse Tales --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Andrew - if worse comes to worst - may I bring the CLF or CLF/s for > the Cooran weekend? Remember the Bhikkhu who was a Flea? remember > the frog who heard the Dhamma? (well, yes, he did get squashed) and > remember the bats who heard the Bhikkhus discussing the Abhidhamma? > (I forget what happened to them) - but, we could write a new sutta > about the Field Mice that heard the Dhamma Discussion at Cooran. :-) Hi Christine Big old Smokey Joe would love to take care of your CLFs while you are sitting in on Dhamma discussions. I once caught a mouse in the house and released it in the paddocks. Right in front of my eyes, a magpie swooped down and grabbed the mouse which let out a squeal of pain. I felt terrible, that I was to blame for the creature's death. But, "it went the way it had to go"! I have been much more careful in subsequent releases though. A moment of kindness can be followed by a moment of pain. See you soon. Andrew 35073 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 5:24pm Subject: Present moment and control Hi everyone, It is often said, in many different ways, that the present moment cannot be controlled. And I agree with this, because I find it to be so. But if all that is said is that the present moment cannot be controlled, than that is quite incorrect, because it is quite incomplete. Just like the study of the Dhamma-Sangani on its own would give quite a distorted model of reality. Clearly the Patthana is necessary to shed light on the Dhamma-Sangani, and vice versa. Back to this present moment which cannot be controlled. Imagine a thirsty man. If the thirsty man was aware of his thirst but was constrained by his limited view that the present moment cannot be controlled, he would remain thirsty, and die thirsty in a relatively short time. Clearly the man was not a sage, because he was unaware that the present moment is conditioned, and that conditions can be controlled, to a degree; and that when conditions are controlled, to any degree, the present moment is changed. A running tap (faucet) 10 paces to the left of a dehydrated corpse does not bear testimony to an accurate grasp of the present moment. The suttas are replete with if - then statements. They are statements along the lines of "if you want to achieve this, then do that" or "if you want to achieve this, then don't do that". There are controllable conditions, which when selected, or avoided, will conduce to desired results. Now it will be the case, that on having reached a critical mass towards the desired result, this critical mass is itself a condition for things taking care of themselves. Because by then, it will be clearly understood that the present moment is exactly how it comes to be. Herman PS Assuming the result is not ever a condition for bringing it about. In fact, it is a condition for not ever bringing it about. If you are a layperson, forget about anatta!!! See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html#para Everyman's Ethics Four Discourses of the Buddha Adapted from the translations of Narada Thera The Wheel Publication No. 14 35074 From: connieparker Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 5:51pm Subject: On-list, then Sarah, My cultivation leaves something to be desired when I seem destined to repeat myself. I do take my foolishness seriously, but not sure how responsible I am. Accountable, yes, kammasakata. Maybe more reflection on the qualities of devas would lend my fallout more of a grace so there might be the least harm done. Whatever that might mean. A virtuoso is one who is well established in virtue and that is beauty? Saw Nina 'respectfully butting in' with Howard and tossed my unsent response about Dhamma being universal so we do all "practice" - whether it's Coyote, Kahuna or whatever, we only believe what conditions allow (half of what we see and even less of what we hear I've been advised) and live within those constraints. Actual proof of mundane practice must be that we change thru having heard or whatever - sensed / citta absorbed - enough to make it our new self with no choice but to do what it is supported by conditions to, with no end to practice as long as it's wrong. Hearsay has it that Right practice clears another Path and I like rumours of peace even if I do drag my feet. Lead on. Deathless because all the a's preceding kusala have died off? Yes, InBreath. Exhaust it. Human filters- hahahah. Someone else*s serious humour about my description of tonglen/taking universal dukkha and giving back purity... as a means of giving up self. Blowing smoke because, stealing again: "What is the use of taking for pure metta and compassion what is mixed with selfish affection?". *[I sent her anapanasatiUp's, btw, as we're reading ADL ch21 on 'no trivial matter'., etc. Also, for life(?), reading Vsm with her, as I think I mentioned off-list some time back]. I think gods (especially of creation, whatever they are?) must only breathe when they feel like it. Or they forget and just breathe without giving it any thought, like me. Jon said breath was pakati for the hearers? Thank god I'm no torah scribe. Or naked ascetic. Another of Nina's: The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta, states: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. John looked up 'the four wheels of the mahayana' (as in: I pray not to be separated from them and the two tantric things in all my lifetimes) and I don't remember what he said, but I still don't say that part of their prayers because of my wierd belief in the power of words and naming, just because it says mahayana? Also forgot I was going to bring him something else of Nina's on this that I've lost now. Not to argue with him, just because neither of us had an answer when the question came up. Sometimes I say things to PaliGirl, like when John said 6 perfections, leaving out Sacca: "Who can believe him when he leaves out truth?" And bite my tongue, I do not continue: Why do they want a teacher who has said, in effect, that he is not qualified? That we must have secrets? That samatha is more important than satipatthan for this most precious of lifetimes? Why asking "Please, guru buddha, bless me to be able to do this?" Who am i begging what of now? I think that gives 'Lord Buddha' strange overtones. On and on. > Something in John's 'mindrays' so disgusted me that the book disappeared > for hours last time I put it down. Hard for me to refute things. Hard > not to try anyway. And sometimes, if I twist my mind right looking for > common ground, I can make their stuff fit my doctrinal understanding. I > do still get bent when things like 'lesser vehicle/hinayana' and Thera > come up too close together. My big pet peeve and I've asked John please > not to step in my defilement like that. Evidently he spoke to Lama Zopa > about that. Wanted me to know that LZ had agreed that Thera is > compassionate. Score 4, but don't keep track, megalomaniac. > He says he likes debate but also that he is not well studied. What's to > argue about when we're both so ignorant? Your text says this, mine says > that. What do we realize from that? Next. What we did the other week: roll up prayers (what did they say?) around joss/incense in a certain way to go into the base of the new buddha statue up on Tunk Mt. - LZ's personal retreat: "Amida's PureLand" I hear it's named. I enjoy the display there and spin the prayer wheel and circumambulate and all but the full prostration things no one else has been doing in my sight, either. These prayer bundle things will become buddha relics by proximaty if you (want to) believe that. What's not a relic by the time we speak of it? Tenzin was copying some stuff at WallyWorld the other day while Dinah was here and I had half hoped they might meet. Guess it's only to be expected that I would see familiar people when I leave my dwelling, but I like attaching Significance to things, my own twisting, I guess, like pretending AngelEyes is spelled A~njali. Her calling me that was cute, but not the great compliment to my underwhelming understanding that Greg's offering to get me robes was. Oh, yeah, feed my fantastic ego, Babe (as he called me). Gee, Wally, do you think I really could be a bodhisattva? O, god, please not that! A reckless sotapanna would do. And god exhaled. I'm too pagan for my own good. If my friends are going to believe that reciting mantras without knowing their meanings and even just touching a certain text are path things, it might be good to make a cd with Pali chanting and look for translations to include for people who might read, also the refuge and a few other things they already say in the same words they use. How do I get TA Group mp3's? I gave up on buddhadhamma's and now i can't because of no flash. Anyway, it would be something to listen to. The Dhammapada is in Pali (Ven. Weragoda Sarada Maha Thero) and English (Ms. Margaret Rajarethnam) at http://www.buddhist-book.com/dhammapada.htm peace, connie 35075 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 6:19pm Subject: Re: Present moment and control Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > It is often said, in many different ways, that the present moment cannot > be controlled. And I agree with this, because I find it to be so. But if > all that is said is that the present moment cannot be controlled, than > that is quite incorrect, because it is quite incomplete. Just like the > study of the Dhamma-Sangani on its own would give quite a distorted > model of reality. Clearly the Patthana is necessary to shed light on the > Dhamma-Sangani, and vice versa. > > Back to this present moment which cannot be controlled. Imagine a > thirsty man. If the thirsty man was aware of his thirst but was > constrained by his limited view that the present moment cannot be > controlled, he would remain thirsty, and die thirsty in a relatively > short time. Clearly the man was not a sage, because he was unaware that > the present moment is conditioned, and that conditions can be > controlled, to a degree; and that when conditions are controlled, to any > degree, the present moment is changed. A running tap (faucet) 10 paces > to the left of a dehydrated corpse does not bear testimony to an > accurate grasp of the present moment. > > The suttas are replete with if - then statements. They are statements > along the lines of "if you want to achieve this, then do that" or "if > you want to achieve this, then don't do that". There are controllable > conditions, which when selected, or avoided, will conduce to desired > results. Now it will be the case, that on having reached a critical mass > towards the desired result, this critical mass is itself a condition for > things taking care of themselves. Because by then, it will be clearly > understood that the present moment is exactly how it comes to be. I have a slightly different perspective. I agree that the present moment cannot be controlled; but in reality, the present moment is all that there is. You say that conditions can be controlled; I don't see it that way - I see conditions as doing the controlling (as opposed to a self doing controlling). If we accept that we can control conditions, it is like saying that we can control the present through "remote-control" or indirect control. The present moment arises in the manner that it arises because conditions allow to arise in this manner. The cittas which sense, percieve, concieve and proliferate the present moment arise because conditions allow them to arise in this manner. It is very worthwhile to study natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya) to understand that strong past citta, strong past cetasikas, strong past rupa and strong past concepts can influence the current citta+cetasikas. This study helps us understand the power of habits, vows and recent circumstances on our current mental state. Understanding this, the Buddha used conventional language such as "if you want to achieve this, then do that". The Buddha's advice was not fatalistic (such as would cause the thirsty man to ignore the faucet), it was practical. The Buddha explained that the present moment was conditioned so that one could see how things as they truly are. Eliminating the view of a self that could control (directly or indirectly) is an important step in one's development. With self-view eliminated, lobha and dosa lose much of their power (there are no conditions for a Sotapanna to be reborn in a woeful state). As we loosen our clinging to self-view, we reduce the power of lobha and dosa. Sorry that I cannot write more. I am preparing to get onto a long flight. I apologize in advance if I am not able to reply to your answer for some time. Metta, Rob M :-) 35076 From: Andrew Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 6:25pm Subject: Re: Present moment and control --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [big snip] If you are a > layperson, forget about anatta!!! See > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html#para > Everyman's Ethics > Four Discourses of the Buddha > Adapted from the translations of > Narada Thera > The Wheel Publication No. 14 Hi Herman Glad to see you quoting the written word now?? A moment of trust? (-: Are you telling us to forget about anatta based on a sutta given by the Buddha to a splendid deity, which sutta finishes with reference to a "noble sage"? Sorry to be predictable, but ... What about the advice the Buddha gave to the 500 layperson merchants NOT to forget about anatta? Where does that fit in? With respect to your concerns about the "no control" theorists, I admit to sharing them from time to time. On closer inspection, though, I think you may be "boxing at shadows". My understanding is that these people don't deny that there is volition, that there is direction. It must be realised, however, that the volition and direction is not-self and is conditioned in an extremely complex continuity. So complex, in fact, that it gives rise to the illusion of a controlling self - an illusion frequently reinforced when desired result seems to follow action. The illusion is best exposed, however, when desired result fails to arise from the action (and that's the "crunch" that people who believe in a directing self need to explain). But that's it. The no-controllers don't go on to say "don't bother about being kind to animals or faithful to your spouse or whatever". They are stressing Right Understanding and Wisdom as the key to the Buddhadhamma. If your inclination is to do sitting meditation, then do it! If your inclination is to work with lepers in India, do it! If your inclination is to study, do it! But in all cases, the key remains the same - wisdom. In the present moment because the Buddha said the past has ceased to exist and the future has never existed. Herman, am I missing something? Is there something *more* than just seeing things as they really are NOW? Is the Dhamma like a pirate's treasue map which you follow mechanically, taking 10 steps east then 4 steps west and then digging to find the reward? And if you don't take that specific route, you don't find the treasure? Is the path outside or is it within? Sorry for rambling. Hope you got something out of this, even if it's only to have another look at the "no control" idea from a different perspective. Gotta go. Best wishes Andrew 35077 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: death and listening. Hi Howard, thanks. I let it rest for a while, have to concentrate now on my Tiika Vis.: the two types of cittas rooted in anger, Larry just posted. Your repeated Q: only listening? is good, makes one consider more for oneself the conditions, and the ways to explain reasons to others. And to ask oneself: where is one at fault, is there neglectfulness, or is there in oneself some clinging to result, even a little? Nina. op 02-08-2004 13:57 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > > In a message dated 8/2/04 1:01:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: > >> What is fallout? I may misunderstand you. >> Nina > ==================== > Oh. It's just another word for "consequence" or "result". Nothing > special - at least I had nothing special in mind. 35078 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation Dear Andrew L, Great you study the Visuddhimagga, I am always glad to hear that since I admire it so much. If you have any Q I am delighted. As you have seen, Larry posts sections systematically, and now we are at citta rooted in aversion or hate, dosa. Dosa has many forms, such as fear, anxiety, aversion, etc. Maybe you like to discuss this. Be careful with your health as to ascetic practices, they are not for everybody, for special monks only. I enjoyed reading about them, though. But there are many other ways we laypeople can practise ascetism, for instance, the Buddha called patience the highest ascetism. This is more difficult than any other kind of practice. When we are about to say a harsh word but we do not say it, this is ascetism. When we have pain but we do not show others a sour face (which is unpleasant), but we smile kindly instead, that is ascetism, because we think of others instead of ourselves. Good wishes for your treatment, I really sympathize with you that you need treatment, Nina. op 02-08-2004 06:33 schreef suicidal_one2004 op andrewlevin@e...: > And off topic, I've been studying the Vissudhimagga and taking notes, > now at times I have a lot of difficulty *understanding* things, but I > have decided that it's appropriate for me to take up one of the > thirteen ascetic practises. 35079 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction Dear Charles, welcome to this group. You do not need to know anything to discuss, any basic questions are welcome. you could just begin, asking a question, anyone that comes to your mind. Nina. op 02-08-2004 02:22 schreef Charles Thompson op dhammasaro@h...: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bluescatplayah > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 7:00 PM > Subject: [dsg] Introduction .... I will happily take part here, if you will have me. > Please send anything I need to know to take part in discussions 35080 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 2, 2004 11:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Rob, Thanks for your reply, and I understand you may not be there to receive this reply. Wherever you will be, I wish you well :-) Some comments below: ====================== >Hi Herman, > > >I have a slightly different perspective. I agree that the present >moment cannot be controlled; but in reality, the present moment is >all that there is. ====================== I am happy to accept your perspective, and I am not correcting you. What you say is technically correct. But doesn't the wordling also prepare for an anticipated future state to become a present moment at some time? For example, you were kind enough to inform me that you were going to be absent from the list, and that you were preparing for this. People expect to have futures and remember pasts. I would say that in reality the present moment is coloured or conditioned by far more than you are giving credit for. ======================= > You say that conditions can be controlled; I >don't see it that way - I see conditions as doing the controlling >(as opposed to a self doing controlling). If we accept that we can >control conditions, it is like saying that we can control the > present through "remote-control" or indirect control. =========================== I did say that conditions can be controlled, but I also specifically said *to a degree*. And it is precisely this "degree of control" which allows the thought of "self" to be born. Where there is self, there is "I am" "This is mine" "I am doing this". Where there is no self, there is no kamma. I am speaking from my day to day experience. I would find it hard to accept that you will get on a plane soon and travel to a far away destination without you ever having had a thought that you were organizing, planning, deciding for this happen. I hope you have a great trip, and be safe!!! Herman 35081 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Dear Nina (Connie & Sukin*), I was glad you requoted the passages about the Wheels and the meanings of samaya. I had meant to comment before, but I think it was when I was travelling and too many threads to pick up on return. I appreciated your translation of the sutta about the 4 wheels and its linking with the extract from Vism Tika. I hope Connie will also include her translations too for us all to reflect on. I see she also liked and picked up on the meanings of samaya, buried in latest diary extract/treasure trove of practice. anapanasati,kammasakata, mahayana wheels, pet peeves,Tibetan teachings, PureLand prayer, Angel Eyes and reciting mantras ;-)* ..... --- nina van gorkom wrote: > By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual > contribution > towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with > regard to samaya as condition: 'By this word showing thus the condition, > the > conceit of one who believes that states unconditionally follow one1s own > will is subdued.' ... Yes, this is a good quote and I just read AndrewT’s and RobM’s good posts on anatta and conditions - this passage is very relevant. We might wonder why we’re sick or why misfortune befalls someone or why we get angry or why anything, but by the ‘concurrence of conditions’ the present dhammas can never be any other way but just as they are at this moment. I’m thinking of other wheel similes: “Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is, touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment.’ VismV111,39 ... N:> When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary > conditions > for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paññaa we are > reminded > that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away > immediately. > Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paññaa. ... Just when the concurrence of conditions allows or the tyre rests on that one point, like the tip of the needle-point where the ayatanas meet to be conditioned that way. >’as difficult for the mind as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning-flash, because of its extremely short duration’> Such a good simile, especially if we have any illusions about continuous kusala or control. Instead of being discouraging, it can be a reminder to ‘accept’ and understand with detachment whatever is conditioned without expectations about too much kusala, especially with wisdom, in a day. You also gave a good quote from A.Sujin to KenH before: <‘Kusala citta arises, it has no name, but we call it: kusala of him or her. It is a specific citta that is wholesome and then falls away. We should understand that it is anatta, arising by conditions....’> Nina, I haven’t checked to see if the references are the same, but there are also several pages on the meanings of yasmin samaye (on such occasion), ekam samayam (on one occasion) etc and the reasons for the cases in Pali in the commentary to the Udana, Enlightenment ch, p41f Another good quote on the wheel of the round of rebirths from Vism V11,7: ‘Now this wheel of the round of rebirths with its hub made of ignorance and of craving for becoming, with its spokes consisting of formations of merit and the rest, with its rim of ageing and death, which is joined to the chariot of the triple becoming by piercing it with the axle made of the origin of cankers (see Mi,55), has been revolving throughout time that has no beginning. All this wheel’s spokes (ara) were destroyed (hata) by him at the Place of Enlightenment, as he stood firm with the feet of energy on the ground of virtue, wielding with the hand of faith the axe of knowledge that destroys kamma - because the spokes are thus destroyed he is accomplished (arahanta) also.’ Metta, Sarah *Connie, yes, please keep them up on list for all to enjoy. Amongst the anecdotes and wise reflections, I think you also asked about MP3 - Jon, Nina and Sukin listen to Thai MP3 . I think they made a few English ones, perhaps SUKIN could check for you and others. Sukin, hope all’s well, you’ve been very quiet recently??? ================ 35082 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 1:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Andrew, Thanks for your post. Some comments below: ============================================ >Hi Herman >Glad to see you quoting the written word now?? A moment of trust? (-: >Are you telling us to forget about anatta based on a sutta given by >the Buddha to a splendid deity, which sutta finishes with reference >to a "noble sage"? Sorry to be predictable, but ... >What about the advice the Buddha gave to the 500 layperson merchants >NOT to forget about anatta? Where does that fit in? ========================================= The link I posted was intended to link to 4 suttas addressed to lay people. Sorry if that went wrong. The advice in those suttas was to be fully human, and to pursue avidly all those things that a monk would walk away from (Family, pursuit of wealth, social standing). Very sound advice indeed. It is avid pursuit that leads to understanding of just how empty and futile avid pursuit is. As opposed to wishy-washy-ness, which is unconcentrated enough to never ring a bell anywhere. But I have already digressed :-) ========================================= >With respect to your concerns about the "no control" theorists, I >admit to sharing them from time to time. On closer inspection, >though, I think you may be "boxing at shadows". My understanding is >that these people don't deny that there is volition, that there is >direction. It must be realised, however, that the volition and >direction is not-self and is conditioned in an extremely complex >continuity. ========================================= I think I agree with you. But I would word it differently. Where you say "It must be realized...." I would say "It will be realized if x y and z". A wordling who grasps upfront at the theoretical idea of anatta will only succeed at suppressing the realisation that the belief in a self forms the basis of all their perceptions and actions. And would say say upfront to wordlings not to take refuge in the Triple Gem, because there is a self in that? ========================================= >So complex, in fact, that it gives rise to the illusion >of a controlling self - an illusion frequently reinforced when >desired result seems to follow action. The illusion is best exposed, >however, when desired result fails to arise from the action (and >that's the "crunch" that people who believe in a directing self need >to explain). =========================================== I did say that control is only partial. Are you totally denying the thought of any degree of control whatsoever? Or are you talking here from an a-priori belief in what you think you must realise? ========================================== > But that's it. The no-controllers don't go on to >say "don't bother about being kind to animals or faithful to your >spouse or whatever". They are stressing Right Understanding and >Wisdom as the key to the Buddhadhamma. If your inclination is to do >sitting meditation, then do it! If your inclination is to work with >lepers in India, do it! If your inclination is to study, do it! But >in all cases, the key remains the same - wisdom. In the present >moment because the Buddha said the past has ceased to exist and the >future has never existed. ========================================== I am less interested in what the no-controllers say, than in what they do :-). What they do is a far better indicator of where they stand with regards to the present moment :-) And while they may claim a position of no-control, I assume that to be an entirely theoretical position. An interesting ethical aside. If you were a learned judge (perhaps you are one, in which case, sorry :-)), would you enforce personal accountability and responsibility in your courtroom, or would you sit cross-legged and encourage people to do whatever they are inclined to do ? ========================================= >Herman, am I missing something? Is there something *more* than just >seeing things as they really are NOW? Is the Dhamma like a pirate's >treasue map which you follow mechanically, taking 10 steps east then >4 steps west and then digging to find the reward? And if you don't >take that specific route, you don't find the treasure? ========================================= I think the Dhamma is about suffering and the end of suffering. Do you think that people who are not aware of their suffering would want to find out about it? The dhamma becomes a treasure only when suffering is realized. You cannot tell the blissfully ignorant that they are suffering. But people who know they are suffering will follow the instructions of the doctor till they get relief. What do you reckon? Herman 35083 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Suffering twice Hi Nori (and Eric), --- ericlonline wrote: > Nori >I find myself, often, when experiencing suffering > saying, "look at me, all this study and practice and still I > suffer.", I suffer even more than people who never even heard a > single word of Dhamma, since, on top of the original suffering > derived from the original cause, I slap another heap of suffering on > top due to my craving and frustration for emancipation from > suffering. > > > E:> Someone waking up to the Second Noble Truth? :-) ***** Nori, you’ve been writing many interesting posts and providing lots of quotes. I have several in front of me and I’d like to make a few comments, but I know that often we have to just agree to disagree on our interpretations. Firstly on this passage which Eric replied to. As you suggest, the ‘craving and frustration for emancipation from suffering’ is merely more craving. If our practice or understanding simply leads to more craving in this way, shouldn’t we question it as you are doing? Even when we have 'the intention of emanicpation' and think there is no craving, it's there;-) On the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, there have been some helpful messages written. If you have time, please look under the ‘Satipatthana Sutta and commentaries’ in U.P. Many of the points you raise and ask for comments on are covered by these. I’ll be glad if you raise any of these posts for further discussion. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Just a few quick points in note form: 1. Focussing as used in some translations is usually based on the term ‘sampajanna’. Sampajanna is panna or wisdom or clear comprehension. Sati sampajanna refers to right awareness and right understanding and other factors accompanying moments of satipatthana. 2. Dhammas are conditioning and arise and fall away far quicker than the fastest blink of an eye....understanding has to be with detachment, not focussing or concentrating on a preferred object, otherwise there's bound to be more craving again. 3. The only rupas experienced through the body-sense are heat/cold, motion/pressure and hardness/softness. I’d like to see the sutta which says that ‘everything is manifested as a sensation on the body.....’ Selecting just particular rupas (‘sensations’) with the idea that this will lead to emancipation from suffering is sure to be embedded in more craving as I see it. 4. You mentioned that ‘Vipassana is done by focussing your attention to certain parts of the body......sweeping/scanning motion.....’ etc. I’m familiar with the Goenka method and definition of vipassana , but I don’t think it has any foundation in the Tipitaka or commentaries. Vipassana is not something that is ‘done’ but again refers to insight or understanding which is anatta. 5. You kindly asked for ‘comments or personal techniques and experiences’. I think that many of us found, like you, that our craving and frustration for emancipation coupled with views of control and focussing which resulted in following ‘personal techniques’ simply led to more, rather than less suffering. Indeed, clinging to self and one’s progress (which this is all about) can only ever lead downhill as I see it. 6. In a post to me you referred to satipatthana and the ‘retaining in memory’ aspect. it’s true that at moments of satipatthana, sati is mindful or remembers to be aware of the presently arising nama or rupa. This is so very different from conventional memory or remembering however. For example, when we read about the lady who became an anagami whilst burning the curry or the lady who was so distraught at losing her family members, that she rushed in naked and quite mad to see the Buddha just before she listened and became enlightened. No special focussing, but sufficient wisdom and understanding of dhammas as anatta. 7. I think you asked about the objects contained in the fourth foundation of mindfulness. As I understand it, all namas and rupas, including those already discussed under the other three foundations are included here, for example under khandhas. (See post by Jon at end*) 8. It seems that when the word ‘sensation’ is used, sometimes it’s referring to rupas experienced through the body-sense and sometimes to feelings (vedana) which are of course namas. Without clearly distinguishing the rupas from the namas, there is bound to be an idea of body or self. For example, you gave a quote from AN1X ii 4 on the Ven Samiddhi which had me a little perplexed until I looked it up: ‘What, Samiddhi is the basis of purposive thoughts (sankappavitakkaa)?’ “Name and shape (nama and rupa), sir.’ ‘What gives them their variety?’ ‘The elements.’ ‘What gives rise to them?’ ‘contact.’ ‘Wherein have they common ground?’ ‘In feeling.’ etc .... Feelings (vedana), whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral (as you rightly indicated) accompany all cittas regardless of whether namas or rupas are the object at anytime. They are always namas and quite distinct from the rupas experienced through the body-sense. You wrote: ‘And where are feelings felt? -..as sensations on the body’. I think it’s important to see that this is not correct. 9. You wrote: ‘??? Dhamma is understood by mindfulness of the body. All is Dhamma.’ I would say, ‘Dhamma is understood by mindfulness of what ever dhammas are appearing now, whether a nama or a rupa’. Without the development and clear understanding of rupas experienced through the body sense or through eyes, ears and so on, distinct from feelings and all other namas such as seeing, hearing and thinking , there cannot be clear comprehension and the development of satipatthana as I see it. 10. For more on namas and rupas and these aspects, please read the first couple of chapters of ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Nori, I’ve just picked up on aspects from your many fine posts which I felt should be addressed. I’ve left all the areas where we’re in agreement, such as the need for ‘practice’ at anytime and so on. I appreciate all your keen reflections and sharings with us and I know you'll just pick out anything here of value to you and leave the rest;-). Look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ====== *Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the rupas’ section and the mind object’ section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a dhamma’; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness’ Jon Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling. Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally ... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ********** END QUOTE 35084 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Dear Joop, Welcome here from me as well. I was very interested to read your post and the replies from James, Howard and Nina. I think we’re all keenly waiting to hear more from you! I won’t say much now. (Btw, originally I came to the Dhamma, particularly the Abhidhamma, from a background of psychology, especially social psychology and so I could appreciate your questions.) --- jwromeijn wrote: As far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology, > it is a very individual and individualistic psychology. ... S: Of course, what distinguishes the Abhidhamma from any other psychology is the teaching of elements as anatta. What we think of as being an individual are merely namas and rupas arising and passing away. An individual is a concept, a fabrication of the mind. It is this teaching of anatta which only a Buddha could reveal. .... > MY QUESTION IS IF IT CAN ALSO BE SEEN AS A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY ? > I do think so, but I don't know how; for exemple a mother-child > relation can hardly be decribed by it. ... Ultimately, only in terms of namas and rupas. The’interaction’, ‘social psychology’, ‘engaged Buddhism’, claims of being ‘egocentric’ and so on are merely concepts. When there is the development of understanding of dhammas as dhammas, it begins to be apparent, I believe, why this wisdom is taught as being the highest kind of wholesome state. Instead of leading to ‘egocentricity’, it leads to the abandonment of clinging to self in all its guises and the development of all other kinds of wholesomeness by really seeing their value and understanding their characteristics as anatta when they arise, without any clinging to ‘my virtue or good deeds’. Joop, do you live in Holland? Look forward to hearing more about your background and interest in Theravada and any comments on the responses you recieved. Metta, Sarah ======== 35085 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 3:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation Hi Nina, You have answered a question I was going to ask. Could you elaborate your answer a little :-) ? My question was about acting against one's will. Your example related to ascetism, which you gave examples of as when one is about to say a harsh word, but don't, or refraining from pulling a face when in pain. My question was prompted by the internal conflict that arises when a person feels they *should* act one way, but really wants to do something completely different. How does the Abhidhamma account for simultaneous, but conflicting wills? Thank you Herman -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Tuesday, 3 August 2004 2:23 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation Dear Andrew L, Great you study the Visuddhimagga, I am always glad to hear that since I admire it so much. If you have any Q I am delighted. As you have seen, Larry posts sections systematically, and now we are at citta rooted in aversion or hate, dosa. Dosa has many forms, such as fear, anxiety, aversion, etc. Maybe you like to discuss this. Be careful with your health as to ascetic practices, they are not for everybody, for special monks only. I enjoyed reading about them, though. But there are many other ways we laypeople can practise ascetism, for instance, the Buddha called patience the highest ascetism. This is more difficult than any other kind of practice. When we are about to say a harsh word but we do not say it, this is ascetism. When we have pain but we do not show others a sour face (which is unpleasant), but we smile kindly instead, that is ascetism, because we think of others instead of ourselves. Good wishes for your treatment, I really sympathize with you that you need treatment, Nina. op 02-08-2004 06:33 schreef suicidal_one2004 op andrewlevin@e...: > And off topic, I've been studying the Vissudhimagga and taking notes, > now at times I have a lot of difficulty *understanding* things, but I > have decided that it's appropriate for me to take up one of the > thirteen ascetic practises. 35086 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 3:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment Hi RobK, You quoted/wrote: The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 Notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. ============================== Given the above, how can any reality be known as being irreducible? (paramattha dhamma) Herman 35087 From: Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: death and listening. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/3/04 12:23:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > thanks. I let it rest for a while, have to concentrate now on my Tiika Vis.: > the two types of cittas rooted in anger, Larry just posted. > Your repeated Q: only listening? is good, makes one consider more for > oneself the conditions, and the ways to explain reasons to others. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Nina. -------------------------------------------- And to> > ask oneself: where is one at fault, is there neglectfulness, or is there in > oneself some clinging to result, even a little? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, self-examination is so important. All of us cling, and we "thinkers" cling especially to theories and views, and that clinging always supports the power of ignorance to obscure the facts, especially the facts about our own nature. But most folks are hardly ever aware of their clinging, and probably all of us are unaware of it at least at times. I think someone, somewhere, said something to the effect that the first sign of wisdom is to know how little and how poorly we understand! ;-) And I'd like to add to this that as soon as we close ourselves off from possibilities, in particular from the possibility that we might be wrong, we have committed ourselves to having ignorance as companion for a long, long time. One of several things I admire about you and a number of other folks here on DSG is your ability to look beyond your strongly held beliefs to other possibilities. I admire it, and I try to keep in mind acting that way myself. ------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35088 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > You quoted/wrote: > > The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 Notes that > there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no > single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there > a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from > multiple causes. > > > ============================== > Given the above, how can any reality be known as being irreducible? > (paramattha dhamma) > >++++++++++ Dear Herman, I arrived in Bangkok a couple of hours ago and am just on my way to get dinner for children and self. It will take time to give a proper explanation and I'll try to do do as soon as I can. Robert 35089 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 7:18am Subject: Practicing the Dhamma Hello DSGers, Guess who is back. But only for a short while I am afraid. I will soon leave you again. I am back about a week now, lurking in the list to see how much has changed, and guess what? Ça plus change, ça plus la meme chose, I can see that many are tightly holding on to their same old ideas. And right now some are probably licking their wounds from recent, but same old, same old, discussions. But anyway this is not the reason I am writing. When I left the list a while back I had some private exchanges with Sarah and promised her that I would be back to post a sutta which very much reminds me of the discussions in this list, and in many other similar lists for that matter. I hope you enjoy it. Here goes the sutta: Metta Michael Mahagosinga Sutta - MN 32 1. THUS HAVE I HEARD. On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Park of the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood together with a number of very well-known elder disciples -the venerable Sariputta, the venerable Maha Moggallana, the venerable Maha Kassapa, the venerable Anuruddha, the venerable Revata, the venerable Ananda, and other very well-known elder disciples. 2. Then, when it was evening, the venerable Maha Moggallana rose from meditation, went to the venerable Maha Kassapa, and said to him: "Friend Kassapa, let us go to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma." -"Yes, friend," the venerable Maha Kassapa replied. Then the venerable Maha Moggallana, the venerable Maha Kassapa, and the venerable Anuruddha went to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma. 3. The venerable Ananda saw them going to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma. Thereupon he went to the venerable Revata and said to him: "Friend Revata, those true men are going to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma. Let us also go to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma." -"Yes, friend," the venerable Revata replied. Then the venerable Revata and the venerable Ananda went to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma. 4. The venerable Sariputta saw the venerable Revata and the venerable Ananda coming in the distance and said to the venerable Ananda: "Let the venerable Ananda come, welcome to the venerable Ananda, the Blessed One's attendant, who is always in the Blessed One's presence. Friend Ananda, the Gosinga Sala- tree Wood is delightful, the night is moonlit, the sala trees are all in blossom, and heavenly scents seem to be floating in the air. What kind of bhikkhu, friend Ananda, could illuminate the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu has learned much, remembers what he has learned, and consolidates what he has learned. Such teachings as are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, and which affirm a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure -such teachings as these he has learned much of, remembered, mastered verbally, investigated with the mind, and penetrated well by view. And he teaches the Dhamma to the four assemblies with well-rounded and coherent statements and phrases for the eradication of the underlying tendencies.357 That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 5. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta addressed the venerable Revata thus: "Friend Revata, the venerable Ananda has spoken according to his own inspiration.358 Now we ask the venerable Revata: Friend Revata, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful, the night is moonlit, the sala trees are all in blossom, and heavenly scents seem to be floating in the air. What kind of bhikkhu, friend Revata, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu delights in solitary meditation and takes delight in solitary meditation; he is devoted to internal serenity of mind, does not neglect meditation, possesses insight, and dwells in empty huts.359 That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 6. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta addressed the venerable Anuruddha thus: "Friend Anuruddha, the venerable Revata has spoken according to his own inspiration. Now we ask the venerable Anuruddha: Friend Anuruddha, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful...What kind of bhikkhu, friend Anuruddha, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, a bhikkhu surveys a thousand worlds. Just as a man with good sight, when he has ascended to the upper palace chamber, might survey a thousand wheel-rims, so too, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, a bhikkhu surveys a thousand worlds.360 That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 7. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta addressed the venerable Maha Kassapa thus: "Friend Kassapa, the venerable Anuruddha has spoken according to his own inspiration. Now we ask the venerable Maha Kassapa: Friend Kassapa, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful... What kind of bhikkhu, friend Kassapa, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu is a forest dweller himself and speaks in praise of forest dwelling; he is an almsfood eater himself and speaks in praise of eating almsfood; he is a refuse-rag wearer himself and speaks in praise of wearing refuse-rag robes; he is a triple-robe wearer himself and speaks in praise of wearing the triple robe;361 he has few wishes himself and speaks in praise of fewness of wishes; he is content himself and speaks in praise of contentment; he is secluded himself and speaks in praise of seclusion; he is aloof from society himself and speaks in praise of aloofness from society; he is energetic himself and speaks in praise of arousing energy; he has attained to virtue himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of virtue; he has attained to concentration himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of concentration; he has attained to wisdom himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of wisdom; he has attained to deliverance himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of deliverance; he has attained to the knowledge and vision of deliverance himself and speaks in praise of the attain- ment of the knowledge and vision of deliverance. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 8. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta addressed the venerable Maha Moggallana thus: "Friend Moggallana, the venerable Maha Kassapa has spoken according to his own inspiration. Now we ask the venerable Maha Moggallana: Friend Moggallana, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful...What kind of bhikkhu, friend Moggallana, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma362 and they question each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 9. When this was said, the venerable Maha Moggallana addressed the venerable Sariputta thus: "Friend Sariputta, we have all spoken according to our own inspiration. Now we ask the venerable Sariputta: Friend Sariputta, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful, the night is moonlit, the sala trees are all inblossom, and heavenly scents seem to be floating in the air. What kind of bhikkhu, friend Sariputta, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Moggallana, a bhikkhu wields mastery over his mind, he does not let the mind wield mastery over him. In the morning he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the morning; at mid-day he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in at mid-day; in the evening he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the evening. Suppose a king or a king's minister had a chest full of variously coloured garments. In the morning he could put on whatever pair of garments he wanted to put on in the morning; at mid-day he could put on whatever pair of garments he wanted to put on at mid-day; in the evening he could put on whatever pair of garments he wanted to put on in the evening. So too, a bhikkhu wields mastery over his mind, he does not let the mind wield mastery over him. In the morning...at mid-day...in the evening he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the evening. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood:" 10. Then the venerable Sariputta addressed those venerable ones thus: "Friends, we have all spoken according to our own inspiration. Let us go to the Blessed One and report this matter to him. As the Blessed One answers, so let us remember it." - "Yes, friend,." they replied. Then those venerable ones went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, they sat down at one side. The venerable Sariputta said to the Blessed One: 11. "Venerable sir, the venerable Revata and the venerable Ananda came to me to listen to the Dhamma. I saw them coming in the distance and said to the venerable Ananda: 'Let the venerable Ananda come, welcome to the venerable Ananda...Friend Ananda, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful... What kind of bhikkhu, friend Ananda, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?' When asked, venerable sir, the venerable Ananda replied: 'Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu has learned much...(as in §4)... That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, Sariputta. Ananda, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Ananda has learned much, remembers what he has learned, and consolidates what he has learned.Such teachings as are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, and which affirm a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure -such teachings as these he has learned much of, remembered, mastered verbally, investigated with the mind, and penetrated well by view. And he teaches the Dhamrna to the four assemblies with well-rounded and coherent statements and phrases for the eradication of the underlying tendencies." 12. "When this was said, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Revata thus: 'Friend Revata... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sa la-tree Wood?' And the venerable Revata replied: 'Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu delights in solitary meditation... (as in §5)... That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, sariputta. Revata, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Revata delights in solitary meditation, takes delight in solitary meditation, is devoted to internal seren- ity of mind, does not neglect meditation, possesses insight, and dwells in empty huts." 13. "When that was said, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Anuruddha thus: 'Friend Anuruddha... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga sala-tree Wood?' And the venerable Anuruddha replied: 'Here, friend Sariputta, with the divine eye...(as in §6)...That kind of bhikkhu could illumi- nate this Gosinga sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, sariputta. Anuruddha, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, Anuruddha surveys a thou- sand worlds." 14. "When this was said, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Maha Kassapa thus: 'Friend Kassapa... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?' And the venerable Maha Kassapa replied: 'Here, friend sariputta, a bhikkhu is a forest-dweller himself...(as in §7)... That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, sariputta. Kassapa, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Kassapa is a forest-dweller himself and speaks in praise of forest dwelling.. .he has attained to the knowl- edge and vision of deliverance himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of the knowledge and vision of deliverance." 15. "When this was said, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Maha Moggallana thus: 'Friend Moggallana... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?' And the venerable Maha Moggallana replied: 'Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma...(as in §8)... That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala- tree Wood.'" "Good, good, Sariputta. Moggallana, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Moggallana is one who talks on the Dhamma." 16. When that was said, the venerable Maha Moggallana told the Blessed One: "Then, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Sariputta thus: 'Friend Sariputta... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?' And the venerable Sariputta replied: 'Here, friend Moggallana, a bhikkhu wields mastery over his mind (as in §9)...That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, Moggallana. Sariputta, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Sariputta wields mastery over his mind, he does not let the mind wield mastery over him. In the morning he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the morning; at mid-day he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in at mid-day; in the evening he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the evening." 17. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, which of us has spoken well?" "You have all spoken well, Sariputta, each in his own way. Hear also from me what kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood. Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, folds his legs crosswise, sets his body erect, and establisrung mindfulness in front of him, resolves: 'I shall not break this sitting position until through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints.' That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala- tree Wood."363 That is what the Blessed One said. Those venerable ones were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. Notes: 357 The four assemblies are those of bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, men lay followers, and women lay followers. The seven underlying tendencies are enumerated at MN 18.8. Ven. Ananda was declared by the Buddha to be the pre-eminent disciple among those who had learned much, and his discourses are said to have delighted the four assemblies (DN 16.5.16/ii.145). 358 Yatha sakam patibhanam. This phrase might also be rendered "according to his own intuition" or "according to his own ideal." Nm renders ''as it occurs to him"; Homer, "according to his own capacity." 359 Ven. Revata was declared the pre-eminent disciple among those who are meditators. 360 Ven. Anuruddha was the pre-eminent disciple among those who possessed the divine eye. 361 Maha Kassapa was the pre-eminent disciple among those who observed the ascetic practices. 362 Abhidhamma. Though the word cannot refer here to the Pitaka of that name -obviously the product of a phase of Buddhist thought later than the Nikayas -it may well indicate a systematic and analytical approach to the doctrine that served as the original nucleus of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In a careful study of the contexts in which the word" Abhidhamma" occurs in the Sutta Pitakas of several early recensions, the Japanese Pali scholar Fumimaro Watanabe concludes that the Buddha's own disciples formed the conception of Abhidhamma as an elementary philosophical study that attempted to define, analyse, and classify dhammas and to explore their mutual relations. See his Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, pp. 34-36. 363 While the replies of the disciples hold up as the ideal a bhikkhu who has already achieved proficiency in a particular sphere of the renunciant life, the Buddha's reply, by focusing on a bhikkhu still striving for the goal, underscores the ultimate purpose of that life itself. Source: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, translated by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli and Bhikkhu Boddhi. 35090 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 8:26am Subject: Re: Present moment and control Hey Herman, The old 'free will/determinism' issue huh? How free are we really and/or how determined? Is the only 'real' freedom the complete letting go into determinism? PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > It is often said, in many different ways, that the present moment cannot > be controlled. And I agree with this, because I find it to be so. But if > all that is said is that the present moment cannot be controlled, than > that is quite incorrect, because it is quite incomplete. Just like the > study of the Dhamma-Sangani on its own would give quite a distorted > model of reality. Clearly the Patthana is necessary to shed light on the > Dhamma-Sangani, and vice versa. > > Back to this present moment which cannot be controlled. Imagine a > thirsty man. If the thirsty man was aware of his thirst but was > constrained by his limited view that the present moment cannot be > controlled, he would remain thirsty, and die thirsty in a relatively > short time. Clearly the man was not a sage, because he was unaware that > the present moment is conditioned, and that conditions can be > controlled, to a degree; and that when conditions are controlled, to any > degree, the present moment is changed. A running tap (faucet) 10 paces > to the left of a dehydrated corpse does not bear testimony to an > accurate grasp of the present moment. > > The suttas are replete with if - then statements. They are statements > along the lines of "if you want to achieve this, then do that" or "if > you want to achieve this, then don't do that". There are controllable > conditions, which when selected, or avoided, will conduce to desired > results. Now it will be the case, that on having reached a critical mass > towards the desired result, this critical mass is itself a condition for > things taking care of themselves. Because by then, it will be clearly > understood that the present moment is exactly how it comes to be. > > > Herman > PS Assuming the result is not ever a condition for bringing it about. > In fact, it is a condition for not ever bringing it about. If you are a > layperson, forget about anatta!!! See > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html#para > Everyman's Ethics > Four Discourses of the Buddha > Adapted from the translations of > Narada Thera > The Wheel Publication No. 14 35091 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV 92 Hi Larry, The translator uses the words grief and resentment, grief for unpleasant feeling, domanassa, and resentment for aversion, dosa. Here the word pa.tigha is used instead of dosa. It literally means friction, it is another word for dosa. I prefer the word aversion instead of resentment, because there are many shades and degrees. Dosa is not always resentment, it is also fear, fright, a slight uneasiness or worry. I prefer also the word unpleasant feeling to grief for the same reason. op 03-08-2004 00:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > It looks like views in general and self-view in particular only arise > with desire. N: Right. L: If that is the case how does it happen that we identify > with anger, bewilderment and suffering? N: There are so many cittas succeeding one another, and in between the cittas rooted in dosa there are cittas rooted in lobha which may also be associated with wrong view, taking the dosa for lasting and self. We identify with all objects, the latent tendency of wrong view is so strong. It will condition the arising of akusala cittas with wrong perception or remembrance of self, atta sañña. We take our dosa for something lasting, for my dosa. Dosa and unpleasant feeling are cetasikas accompanying citta. They arise with citta at the same base (heartbase), experience the same object and fall away together with the citta. They are very momentary. Dosa arises again, but it is not the same anymore. We make it into something very important, we have aversion about our aversion, how we dislike it. We think about it for a long time with aversion. But it is very insignificant. This can perhaps help to understand that our bewilderment about it is based on a mere nothing. Only the non-returner can eradicate dosa, through the development of insight. In samatha the hindrance of dosa is suppressed, but the latent tendency is not eradicated. It is there, under the surface, bubbling and boiling like a volcano that can erupt at any time. At a moment of unawareness it conditions quite suddenly the arising of dosa, even a violent form of it. Dosa can be destructive like a jungle fire, according to the Expositor. We should see the danger and disadvantage of the latent tendencies and develop the pañña that can eradicate them. This means: facing dosa when it arises and develop more understanding of it. It begins with intellectual understanding about dosa and its conditions. The non-returner has eradicated dosa, he has no more clinging to sense objects. Clinging conditions dosa. Things are not as we want them to be. When we do not get the desirable worldly conditions of gain (the obtainment of pleasant sense objects), praise, honour and bodily well-being, we are like impatient children who cry bitterly when they do not get what they want to have. It is good to know that there are many shades of dosa. Then we see how often it arises in a day. When I almost stumbling, when I try out the water of the shower: just too hot or too cold, when I have a slight worry: how will this be, what should I do, there is already dosa. It is surprising how often it arises. A very slight pain in the hand caused by the pushing of the computer keys. Some tiredness in the head, there is already a mild degree of dosa. Or we are slightly in a hurry to do something, to finish a task, then there is dosa already. There is an endless list. But we are so used to it, we do not notice it. Writing about it now is a reminder! When dosa is strong, also the unpleasant feeling is strong, they condition one another. We find it so important how we feel, we want pleasant feeling all the time. Each citta and thus also the accompanying dosa and unpleasant feeling experience one object at a time. We are reminded of this by countless suttas, where the Buddha explains about cittas experiencing only one object at a time, and that is, through the eys, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body, the mind-door. This reminds us of the momentariness of citta and accompanying cetasikas, and thus also of dosa. We can learn to see it as only a conditioned nama, not long lasting, completely unimportant. And so it is with the accompanying feeling, completely unimportant. We can come to the conclusion that even bewilderment about it is only a conditioned nama, not lasting, unimportant. We can learn to see all those namas as impersonal elements so that we will be less overcome by them. L: Also, is there any more to dukkha than grief and resentment? N: And how! Desire is the cause of dukkha. Not getting what one wants is dukkha. But the greatest dukkha is being in the cycle, being a prey to the three unwholesome roots of lobha, dosa and moha that overcome us time and again. When we see the danger of being in the cycle and all the akusala that is a consequence, there will be a sense of urgency arising naturally, to develop the Path that is leading out. Nina. 35092 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV 92 Dear Nina: > The translator uses the words grief and resentment, > grief for unpleasant > feeling, domanassa, and resentment for aversion, > dosa. Here the word > pa.tigha is used instead of dosa. It literally means > friction, it is another > word for dosa. >------------------------------------------------------ In portuguese Buddhistic Books I always find this kind of translation: Lobha - Ganância - Greed Dosa - Ira - Rage, Hate, Moha - Tolice - Silly, foolishness. Such translation has its own advantages, overlapping the pitfall about mismatching concepts with domanassa, patigha and so on. (Some more of stamina, you could say!) Mettaya, ícaro ------------------------------------------------------- > I prefer the word aversion instead of resentment, > because there are many > shades and degrees. Dosa is not always resentment, > it is also fear, fright, > a slight uneasiness or worry. I prefer also the word > unpleasant feeling to > grief for the same reason. > > op 03-08-2004 00:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op > LBIDD@w...: > > It looks like views in general and self-view in > particular only arise > > with desire. > N: Right. > L: If that is the case how does it happen that we > identify > > with anger, bewilderment and suffering? > N: There are so many cittas succeeding one another, > and in between the > cittas rooted in dosa there are cittas rooted in > lobha which may also be > associated with wrong view, taking the dosa for > lasting and self. We > identify with all objects, the latent tendency of > wrong view is so strong. > It will condition the arising of akusala cittas with > wrong perception or > remembrance of self, atta sañña. We take our dosa > for something lasting, for > my dosa. > Dosa and unpleasant feeling are cetasikas > accompanying citta. They arise > with citta at the same base (heartbase), experience > the same object and fall > away together with the citta. They are very > momentary. Dosa arises again, > but it is not the same anymore. We make it into > something very important, we > have aversion about our aversion, how we dislike it. > We think about it for a > long time with aversion. But it is very > insignificant. This can perhaps help > to understand that our bewilderment about it is > based on a mere nothing. > Only the non-returner can eradicate dosa, through > the development of > insight. > In samatha the hindrance of dosa is suppressed, but > the latent tendency is > not eradicated. It is there, under the surface, > bubbling and boiling like a > volcano that can erupt at any time. At a moment of > unawareness it conditions > quite suddenly the arising of dosa, even a violent > form of it. Dosa can be > destructive like a jungle fire, according to the > Expositor. > We should see the danger and disadvantage of the > latent tendencies and > develop the pañña that can eradicate them. This > means: facing dosa when it > arises and develop more understanding of it. It > begins with intellectual > understanding about dosa and its conditions. > The non-returner has eradicated dosa, he has no more > clinging to sense > objects. Clinging conditions dosa. Things are not as > we want them to be. > When we do not get the desirable worldly conditions > of gain (the obtainment > of pleasant sense objects), praise, honour and > bodily well-being, we are > like impatient children who cry bitterly when they > do not get what they want > to have. > It is good to know that there are many shades of > dosa. Then we see how often > it arises in a day. When I almost stumbling, when I > try out the water of the > shower: just too hot or too cold, when I have a > slight worry: how will this > be, what should I do, there is already dosa. It is > surprising how often it > arises. A very slight pain in the hand caused by the > pushing of the computer > keys. Some tiredness in the head, there is already a > mild degree of dosa. Or > we are slightly in a hurry to do something, to > finish a task, then there is > dosa already. There is an endless list. But we are > so used to it, we do not > notice it. Writing about it now is a reminder! > When dosa is strong, also the unpleasant feeling is > strong, they condition > one another. We find it so important how we feel, we > want pleasant feeling > all the time. > Each citta and thus also the accompanying dosa and > unpleasant feeling > experience one object at a time. We are reminded of > this by countless > suttas, where the Buddha explains about cittas > experiencing only one object > at a time, and that is, through the eys, the ears, > the nose, the tongue, the > body, the mind-door. This reminds us of the > momentariness of citta and > accompanying cetasikas, and thus also of dosa. We > can learn to see it as > only a conditioned nama, not long lasting, > completely unimportant. And so it > is with the accompanying feeling, completely > unimportant. We can come to the > conclusion that even bewilderment about it is only a > conditioned nama, not > lasting, unimportant. We can learn to see all those > namas as impersonal > elements so that we will be less overcome by them. > L: Also, is there any more to dukkha than grief and > resentment? > N: And how! Desire is the cause of dukkha. Not > getting what one wants is > dukkha. But the greatest dukkha is being in the > cycle, being a prey to the > three unwholesome roots of lobha, dosa and moha that > overcome us time and > again. When we see the danger of being in the cycle > and all the akusala that > is a consequence, there will be a sense of urgency > arising naturally, to > develop the Path that is leading out. > Nina. ===== 35093 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Andrew L, > Great you study the Visuddhimagga, I am always glad to hear that since I > admire it so much. If you have any Q I am delighted. As you have seen, Larry > posts sections systematically, and now we are at citta rooted in aversion or > hate, dosa. Dosa has many forms, such as fear, anxiety, aversion, etc. Maybe > you like to discuss this. Sounds like a good topic, only I'm still studying the Vissudhimagga, not really up to Abhidharma. But perhaps I'll watch from the sidelines. (What is a consciousness that is 'prompted'?) > Be careful with your health as to ascetic > practices, they are not for everybody, for special monks only. Where did it say this? Ascetic practises are for anyone who wants austerity. > I enjoyed > reading about them, though. But there are many other ways we laypeople can > practise ascetism, for instance, the Buddha called patience the highest > ascetism. Yes, to me this is true in the sense that when I am sleeping on my floor, or meditating on the pillow, those are both austerities, but what is the common denominator and necessary for both? Patience. There's no austerity without it. Nonetheless, I am going light on the ascetic practises as described in the Vissudhimagga, but I still think it's good as they are praised for creating fewness of wishes, contentment, etc, *very* good qualitities to have, so maybe I'll pick it up sometime in the future. > This is more difficult than any other kind of practice. When we > are about to say a harsh word but we do not say it, this is ascetism. Nope to me that's just abstaining from the ten wholesome actions or harmlessness. Another good thing. > When > we have pain but we do not show others a sour face (which is unpleasant), > but we smile kindly instead, that is ascetism, because we think of others > instead of ourselves. Eh fake smiles aren't so hot ;) > Good wishes for your treatment, I really sympathize with you that you need > treatment, The way things are set up it's more like a state-run slavery program than a treatment facility. I can get healthy without it, granted sometimes it helps, but thanks for your sympathies.. -o_o- peace, Andrew Levin > Nina. > op 02-08-2004 06:33 schreef suicidal_one2004 op andrewlevin@e...: > > > And off topic, I've been studying the Vissudhimagga and taking notes, > > now at times I have a lot of difficulty *understanding* things, but I > > have decided that it's appropriate for me to take up one of the > > thirteen ascetic practises. 35094 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hello Michael, Nice sutta - care to say 'how' it reminds you of discussions on this list? Can we take it that you, yourself, are still holding tightly to your same old views - which I don't presently recall. Always worth remembering that neither being wounded in debate, nor following a majority view, has necessarily anything to do with the truth of the Truthspeakers words. Can unilluminated hope that you intend to make a few more posts and that this foray isn't simply a sort of Parthian shot? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello DSGers, > > > > Guess who is back. But only for a short while I am afraid. I will soon leave you again. I am back about a week now, lurking in the list to see how much has changed, and guess what? Ça plus change, ça plus la meme chose, I can see that many are tightly holding on to their same old ideas. And right now some are probably licking their wounds from recent, but same old, same old, discussions. But anyway this is not the reason I am writing. When I left the list a while back I had some private exchanges with Sarah and promised her that I would be back to post a sutta which very much reminds me of the discussions in this list, and in many other similar lists for that matter. I hope you enjoy it. Here goes the sutta: > > > > Metta > > Michael > > > > Mahagosinga Sutta - MN 32 35095 From: Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Practicing the Dhamma In a message dated 8/3/04 2:07:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: Parthian shot === Christine, What is a Parthian shot? jack 35096 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 2:27pm Subject: Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hi Chris >Can unilluminated hope that you > intend to make a few more posts and that this foray isn't simply a > sort of Parthian shot? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Parthian Shot ? Chris, one should be the own Mr. Know-it-All to understand your clever quote! Since Mr. Bullwinkle J. Moose is not here, I will try to explain to all unwitted members of these noble company of Dhamma Students what a Parthian Shot is: The Parthian Riders were famous at The Classical Age to well shot your bows while riding on horseback; at the battle they usually called retreat and, while they were being pursued by enemies, suddenly they turn back and shot and arrow without stop their savage ride Mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > Hello DSGers, > > > > > > > > Guess who is back. But only for a short while I am afraid. I will > soon leave you again. I am back about a week now, lurking in the > list to see how much has changed, and guess what? Ça plus change, ça > plus la meme chose, I can see that many are tightly holding on to > their same old ideas. And right now some are probably licking their > wounds from recent, but same old, same old, discussions. But anyway > this is not the reason I am writing. When I left the list a while > back I had some private exchanges with Sarah and promised her that I > would be back to post a sutta which very much reminds me of the > discussions in this list, and in many other similar lists for that > matter. I hope you enjoy it. Here goes the sutta: > > > > > > > > Metta > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > Mahagosinga Sutta - MN 32 35097 From: john duncan Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hello, all... Perhaps, being new, it is not my place to interject, but after reading the message I felt like I should share my view that the present moment is uncontrolled, but our behavior within it is totally within our grasp. We cannot control the causes and conditions which bring each moment into being, but we can control our reaction to them, which is precisely why we study the Dhamma--so that we might better understand the present moment and not cause so much trouble for ourselves and others. If my view seems to be out of place, please ignore it or feel free to correct me. Thank you very much. With metta...Duncan... ericlonline wrote: Hey Herman, The old 'free will/determinism' issue huh? How free are we really and/or how determined? Is the only 'real' freedom the complete letting go into determinism? PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > It is often said, in many different ways, that the present moment cannot > be controlled. And I agree with this, because I find it to be so. But if > all that is said is that the present moment cannot be controlled, than > that is quite incorrect, because it is quite incomplete. 35098 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 4:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Eric, I hope I am not just rehashing old well-worn arguments. Either free will or determinism as absolutes are absurd in my book. There is this: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place (or: unestablished)."[1] "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html#n1 When one understands themselves as a self, grasping at anatta will cause sinking. When one overestimates their own freedom one will be whirled about. Mindfulness leads the way. And what's over the flood? Certainly not a place where either free will or determinism play any part. "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html Don't know when, don't know how, but of one thing I am sure, this body is bound to die. And with it all those things that are dependent on this body. Peace to you too, my friend Herman -----Original Message----- From: ericlonline [mailto:ericlonline@y...] Sent: Wednesday, 4 August 2004 1:27 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hey Herman, The old 'free will/determinism' issue huh? How free are we really and/or how determined? Is the only 'real' freedom the complete letting go into determinism? PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > It is often said, in many different ways, that the present moment cannot > be controlled. And I agree with this, because I find it to be so. But if > all that is said is that the present moment cannot be controlled, than > that is quite incorrect, because it is quite incomplete. Just like the > study of the Dhamma-Sangani on its own would give quite a distorted > model of reality. Clearly the Patthana is necessary to shed light on the > Dhamma-Sangani, and vice versa. > > Back to this present moment which cannot be controlled. Imagine a > thirsty man. If the thirsty man was aware of his thirst but was > constrained by his limited view that the present moment cannot be > controlled, he would remain thirsty, and die thirsty in a relatively > short time. Clearly the man was not a sage, because he was unaware that > the present moment is conditioned, and that conditions can be > controlled, to a degree; and that when conditions are controlled, to any > degree, the present moment is changed. A running tap (faucet) 10 paces > to the left of a dehydrated corpse does not bear testimony to an > accurate grasp of the present moment. > > The suttas are replete with if - then statements. They are statements > along the lines of "if you want to achieve this, then do that" or "if > you want to achieve this, then don't do that". There are controllable > conditions, which when selected, or avoided, will conduce to desired > results. Now it will be the case, that on having reached a critical mass > towards the desired result, this critical mass is itself a condition for > things taking care of themselves. Because by then, it will be clearly > understood that the present moment is exactly how it comes to be. > > > Herman > PS Assuming the result is not ever a condition for bringing it about. > In fact, it is a condition for not ever bringing it about. If you are a > layperson, forget about anatta!!! See > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html#para > Everyman's Ethics > Four Discourses of the Buddha > Adapted from the translations of > Narada Thera > The Wheel Publication No. 14 35099 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Duncan, As I see it, mental factors (cetasikaa) and other conditions certainly do exert 'control' (in varying degrees) over thoughts, speech and action. When identification with these conditions occurs they become the 'we' in 'we can control our reaction to them'--the conventional illusion of self. 'Not-self', anatta, one of the three characteristics (tilakkha.na) of all phenomena, is the truth underlying that illusion or convention. The aim of the study (and practice) of Buddhadhamma, in my opinion, is exactly as you say--to UNDERSTAND the present moment. When this occurs, understanding (pa~n~naa) conditions (controls?) thought, speech and action and again as you wrote, causes less trouble for 'ourselves' and 'others'. Understanding the difference between the convention of 'I' and the reality of conditions is absolutely fundamental to any depth of understanding of the Dhamma, I think--and I think this is well born out by the nikaayas as well as the abhidhamma. I don't presume to correct you--just my two cents' worth. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "john duncan" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control > Hello, all... > Perhaps, being new, it is not my place to interject, but after reading the message I felt like I should share my view that the present moment is uncontrolled, but our behavior within it is totally within our grasp. We cannot control the causes and conditions which bring each moment into being, but we can control our reaction to them, which is precisely why we study the Dhamma--so that we might better understand the present moment and not cause so much trouble for ourselves and others. If my view seems to be out of place, please ignore it or feel free to correct me. > Thank you very much. > With metta...Duncan... > > ericlonline wrote: > Hey Herman, > > The old 'free will/determinism' issue huh? > > How free are we really and/or how determined? > > Is the only 'real' freedom the complete letting > go into determinism? > > PEACE > > E > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > It is often said, in many different ways, that the present moment > cannot > > be controlled. And I agree with this, because I find it to be so. > But if > > all that is said is that the present moment cannot be controlled, > than > > that is quite incorrect, because it is quite incomplete. > 35100 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control p.s. Sorry, I meant 'Hi John'--and nice to meet you. mike 35101 From: Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 92 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. Does unpleasant mental feeling only arise with dosa? What about the uncertainty or agitation of bewilderment? Is that not unpleasant? Larry 35102 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 5:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Dearest Michael, It is nice to hear from you in the DSG! Thank you for sending this great Sutta. I hope all our friends from the group may get inspired by the Buddha's own words and keep walking in the Noble Path pointed by the Noble One. Metta, Gabriel Laera ICQ:56458224 MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. 35103 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 5:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hey Icaro!! Thank you very much for this valuable explanation. I was strugling to understand his quote! Kindest Regards & Metta! Gabriel ICQ:56458224 MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "icarofranca" Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Practicing the Dhamma Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 21:27:17 -0000 Hi Chris >Can unilluminated hope that you > intend to make a few more posts and that this foray isn't simply a > sort of Parthian shot? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Parthian Shot ? Chris, one should be the own Mr. Know-it-All to understand your clever quote! Since Mr. Bullwinkle J. Moose is not here, I will try to explain to all unwitted members of these noble company of Dhamma Students what a Parthian Shot is: The Parthian Riders were famous at The Classical Age to well shot your bows while riding on horseback; at the battle they usually called retreat and, while they were being pursued by enemies, suddenly they turn back and shot and arrow without stop their savage ride Mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > Hello DSGers, > > > > > > > > Guess who is back. But only for a short while I am afraid. I will > soon leave you again. I am back about a week now, lurking in the > list to see how much has changed, and guess what? Ça plus change, ça > plus la meme chose, I can see that many are tightly holding on to > their same old ideas. And right now some are probably licking their > wounds from recent, but same old, same old, discussions. But anyway > this is not the reason I am writing. When I left the list a while > back I had some private exchanges with Sarah and promised her that I > would be back to post a sutta which very much reminds me of the > discussions in this list, and in many other similar lists for that > matter. I hope you enjoy it. Here goes the sutta: > > > > > > > > Metta > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > Mahagosinga Sutta - MN 32 35104 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 6:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hi Gabriel! > Thank you very much for this valuable explanation. I > was strugling to > understand his quote! ------------------------------------------------------ Nevermind, pal! Chris usually makes use of the darest foray on Scholar terms, but she is good and simple to understand...sometimes! Ah...and I will put you on my MSN Messenger list!!! Mettaya and best regards, Ícaro > > Kindest Regards & Metta! > > Gabriel > > > ICQ:56458224 > MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... > > "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a > própria mente: esse é o > Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "icarofranca" > Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Practicing the Dhamma > Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 21:27:17 -0000 > > Hi Chris > >Can unilluminated hope that you > > intend to make a few more posts and that this > foray isn't simply a > > sort of Parthian shot? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Parthian Shot ? > Chris, one should be the own Mr. Know-it-All to > understand your > clever quote! > Since Mr. Bullwinkle J. Moose is not here, I will > try to explain to > all unwitted members of these noble company of > Dhamma Students what a > Parthian Shot is: > > The Parthian Riders were famous at The Classical > Age to well shot > your bows while riding on horseback; at the battle > they usually > called retreat and, while they were being pursued by > enemies, > suddenly they turn back and shot and arrow without > stop their savage > ride > > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael > Beisert" > > wrote: > > > Hello DSGers, > > > > > > > > > > > > Guess who is back. But only for a short while I > am afraid. I will > > soon leave you again. I am back about a week now, > lurking in the > > list to see how much has changed, and guess what? > Ça plus change, > ça > > plus la meme chose, I can see that many are > tightly holding on to > > their same old ideas. And right now some are > probably licking their > > wounds from recent, but same old, same old, > discussions. But anyway > > this is not the reason I am writing. When I left > the list a while > > back I had some private exchanges with Sarah and > promised her that > I > > would be back to post a sutta which very much > reminds me of the > > discussions in this list, and in many other > similar lists for that > > matter. I hope you enjoy it. Here goes the sutta: > > > > > > > > > > > > Metta > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > Mahagosinga Sutta - MN 32 ===== 35105 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 7:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Hi Sarah, (and everyone else too, but that goes without saying :-)) I'm wondering if you could clear something up for me. We use the word "are" as in "there are only namas and rupas". But then we also use the word "are" as in "engaged Buddhism and egocentricity are only concepts" or "individuals are only fabrications of the mind". Is this also the case in Pali, ie is the same word used to denote the ontological status of dhammas as well as concepts? Seeing as *we* use the same word, wouldn't it be reasonable to infer that the mode of being of namas and rupas is regarded as the same as the mode of being of concepts? Also, say one has totally osmosed the prescribed reductionist way of thinking, and there is only understanding in terms of elements. There is no more thinking in terms of self. Will that, to your understanding, change the reality of dukkha in the slightest? How is "just dukkha" an improvement on "just my dukkha"? Cordial greetings to you, Joop. I'm an ex-Dutchie. Please don't hold that against me :-) Look forward to discussing with you Herman -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@y...] Sent: Tuesday, 3 August 2004 7:10 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Dear Joop, Welcome here from me as well. I was very interested to read your post and the replies from James, Howard and Nina. I think we're all keenly waiting to hear more from you! I won't say much now. (Btw, originally I came to the Dhamma, particularly the Abhidhamma, from a background of psychology, especially social psychology and so I could appreciate your questions.) --- jwromeijn wrote: As far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology, > it is a very individual and individualistic psychology. ... S: Of course, what distinguishes the Abhidhamma from any other psychology is the teaching of elements as anatta. What we think of as being an individual are merely namas and rupas arising and passing away. An individual is a concept, a fabrication of the mind. It is this teaching of anatta which only a Buddha could reveal. .... > MY QUESTION IS IF IT CAN ALSO BE SEEN AS A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY ? > I do think so, but I don't know how; for exemple a mother-child > relation can hardly be decribed by it. ... Ultimately, only in terms of namas and rupas. The'interaction', 'social psychology', 'engaged Buddhism', claims of being 'egocentric' and so on are merely concepts. When there is the development of understanding of dhammas as dhammas, it begins to be apparent, I believe, why this wisdom is taught as being the highest kind of wholesome state. Instead of leading to 'egocentricity', it leads to the abandonment of clinging to self in all its guises and the development of all other kinds of wholesomeness by really seeing their value and understanding their characteristics as anatta when they arise, without any clinging to 'my virtue or good deeds'. Joop, do you live in Holland? Look forward to hearing more about your background and interest in Theravada and any comments on the responses you recieved. Metta, Sarah ======== 35106 From: Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi, Mike - In my opinion, the following is excellently put - neither overstated nor understated! Very clear, precise, and to the point! Sadhu x 3!! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/3/04 8:24:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > Hi Duncan, > > As I see it, mental factors (cetasikaa) and other conditions certainly do > exert 'control' (in varying degrees) over thoughts, speech and action. When > identification with these conditions occurs they become the 'we' in 'we can > control our reaction to them'--the conventional illusion of self. > 'Not-self', anatta, one of the three characteristics (tilakkha.na) of all > phenomena, is the truth underlying that illusion or convention. > > The aim of the study (and practice) of Buddhadhamma, in my opinion, is > exactly as you say--to UNDERSTAND the present moment. When this occurs, > understanding (pa~n~naa) conditions (controls?) thought, speech and action > and again as you wrote, causes less trouble for 'ourselves' and 'others'. > > Understanding the difference between the convention of 'I' and the reality > of conditions is absolutely fundamental to any depth of understanding of the > Dhamma, I think--and I think this is well born out by the nikaayas as well > as the abhidhamma. > > I don't presume to correct you--just my two cents' worth. > > mike /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Connie, transl. Dear Connie, op 02-08-2004 06:35 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: >>> maybe find something in the book of threes to play translator with >> N: Which one? so that we do'nt do the same. > C: I thought start at the beginning: Bhayasutta.m. I think I lost what I > was doing before. Shall I send you something? N: You did Book of the Ones, first suttas. I think I just use what you gave already, the three roots. As soon as I have a moment. Nina. 35108 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ascetism and speech Hi Herman, op 03-08-2004 12:35 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > My question was about acting against one's will. Your example related to > ascetism, which you gave examples of as when one is about to say a harsh > word, but don't, or refraining from pulling a face when in pain. > > My question was prompted by the internal conflict that arises when a > person feels they *should* act one way, but really wants to do something > completely different. > > How does the Abhidhamma account for simultaneous, but conflicting wills? N: They may seem simultaneous, but aren't. Cittas arise and fall away so fast, akusala cittas and then kusala cittas in between. A person may open your mouth to speak an improper word, but in a flash sati sampajañña takes over. He refrains. That is where the practice begins! No you, sati sampajañña. Thanks to hearing the good Dhamma, understanding, seeing the disadvantage of akusala, the benefit of kusala, and training in all kinds of kusala, the brahma viharas. There can be more metta, one does not want to hurt others. When a person refrains he does not think of himself. Yes, training. Good company, a good example helps. There is a concurrence of many conditions. Nina. 35109 From: antony272b2 Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 9:53pm Subject: A way to make merit and reduce lust at the same time Dear Group, I came up with an idea to make merit and reduce lust at the same time. I gave a donation to the Rape Crisis Centre. I have found that compassion towards women is an antidote to lust. I am very interested in making merit and reducing greed or lust, hatred and delusion. Any ideas from the Group would be appreciated. Thanks / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Antony, > > Antony, I'll look forward to reading more of your contributions and > hearing about any other kind acts you perform - even small ones in your > daily life. Sharing them with us can be a `birthday gift' for us all;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 35110 From: antony272b2 Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 10:14pm Subject: Re: Repulsiveness of the body meditation Dear Andrew and all, The following is a Noble Power I would really like to develop. I highly recommend the commentary link below by Nyanaponika and only didn't post it here because of the length. "Monks, it is good for a monk if, from time to time: He perceives the repulsive in the unrepulsive, If he perceives the repulsive in the repulsive, If he perceives the repulsive in both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, If he perceives the unrepulsive in both the repulsive and the unrepulsive, If he avoids both the repulsive and the unrepulsive (aspects), and dwells in equanimity, mindful and clear comprehending." ANGUTTARA NIKAYA, 5:144 Read more plus commentary at: http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/rootsofgoodandevilC5.html metta / Antony. 35111 From: john duncan Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 8:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Thank you, Mike, for your input. I wholeheartedly agree. When 'I' and 'conditions' and 'we' and all such 'conventions' are blended together to become 'one', then 'understanding' truly occurs. I would have to say, though, that the minute 'I' recognize that 'understanding' has occurred, then 'I' have stepped backward in my 'understanding', but alas! such is the human condition. The best we can achieve, I think, is an understanding, like you say, of the difference between 'I' and 'not-I', the latter being the ego-self, or what 'I' think ignorantly is truly 'I'. If 'I' have misunderstood what you wrote, or am off-track, please let 'me' know. Thank you very much. With metta... Duncan... "m. nease" wrote: Hi Duncan, As I see it, mental factors (cetasikaa) and other conditions certainly do exert 'control' (in varying degrees) over thoughts, speech and action. When identification with these conditions occurs they become the 'we' in 'we can control our reaction to them'--the conventional illusion of self. 'Not-self', anatta, one of the three characteristics (tilakkha.na) of all phenomena, is the truth underlying that illusion or convention. The aim of the study (and practice) of Buddhadhamma, in my opinion, is exactly as you say--to UNDERSTAND the present moment. When this occurs, understanding (pa~n~naa) conditions (controls?) thought, speech and action and again as you wrote, causes less trouble for 'ourselves' and 'others'. Understanding the difference between the convention of 'I' and the reality of conditions is absolutely fundamental to any depth of understanding of the Dhamma, I think--and I think this is well born out by the nikaayas as well as the abhidhamma. I don't presume to correct you--just my two cents' worth. mike 35112 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 1:01am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Mike (and hi to John as well) It is good to see you posting again. And I like this post very much. But I am stuck on one little word; that word being "aim", as in "the aim of the study". In terms of anatta, what is aim? Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] Sent: Wednesday, 4 August 2004 9:55 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Duncan, As I see it, mental factors (cetasikaa) and other conditions certainly do exert 'control' (in varying degrees) over thoughts, speech and action. When identification with these conditions occurs they become the 'we' in 'we can control our reaction to them'--the conventional illusion of self. 'Not-self', anatta, one of the three characteristics (tilakkha.na) of all phenomena, is the truth underlying that illusion or convention. The aim of the study (and practice) of Buddhadhamma, in my opinion, is exactly as you say--to UNDERSTAND the present moment. When this occurs, understanding (pa~n~naa) conditions (controls?) thought, speech and action and again as you wrote, causes less trouble for 'ourselves' and 'others'. Understanding the difference between the convention of 'I' and the reality of conditions is absolutely fundamental to any depth of understanding of the Dhamma, I think--and I think this is well born out by the nikaayas as well as the abhidhamma. I don't presume to correct you--just my two cents' worth. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "john duncan" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control > Hello, all... > Perhaps, being new, it is not my place to interject, but after reading the message I felt like I should share my view that the present moment is uncontrolled, but our behavior within it is totally within our grasp. We cannot control the causes and conditions which bring each moment into being, but we can control our reaction to them, which is precisely why we study the Dhamma--so that we might better understand the present moment and not cause so much trouble for ourselves and others. If my view seems to be out of place, please ignore it or feel free to correct me. > Thank you very much. > With metta...Duncan... > > ericlonline wrote: > Hey Herman, > > The old 'free will/determinism' issue huh? > > How free are we really and/or how determined? > > Is the only 'real' freedom the complete letting > go into determinism? > > PEACE > > E > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > It is often said, in many different ways, that the present moment > cannot > > be controlled. And I agree with this, because I find it to be so. > But if > > all that is said is that the present moment cannot be controlled, > than > > that is quite incorrect, because it is quite incomplete. > > 35113 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > You quoted/wrote: > > The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 Notes that > there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no > single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there > a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from > multiple causes. > > +++++++++ Dear Herman, Am hoping to have time to reply to this great question later tonight. First I must apolgize for my expression of frustration the other day - glad you are still speaking to me:) I met a very soft spoken monk at the DSSF in Bangkok today. He was talking about Pubbekkata punnatta (wholesome accumulations from the past) and how everyone has different aspects and degrees- one person is good at metta, another is very humble, another has insght, another strives to study, and so on. And how also everyone must understand Dhamma in different ways and see different aspects. He likes Abhidhamma but doesn't expect other monks to do what he does. Many other discussions with Betty, Sukin, Ivan, Sujin and others about pariyatti ( theory) and pattipatti (direct understanding) and what they really mean. If there is right understanding then there is not the least feeling of aversion at whatever contact is present including any comments another makes. Then one is ready to listen carefully to what they say - after all they might have a point. Obviously I failed the test with that post but looking forward to doing better from here. Some discussions clarified some matters about pattipatti that I will try to introduce in future posts. A very inspring day, makes me feel like retiring from my post in Japan and settling here. Dear Howard, In my post To Herman I was thnking of him but did have some frustration with something you said so please accept my apology here too! Kind regards Robert 35114 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hi Michael, Like Christine, I need more to go on: what does this sutta tell us? Are you thinking we should sit down and practise pure determination until we have attained arahatship? As I recall, the 10 day meditation courses conducted by S N Goenka end in a session pure determination. (Or is it `grim determination,' I forget what he called it.) Not surprisingly, nothing ever comes of it – just more leg and back pain than in the other sessions. And it is ridiculous when you think of it. Ananda followed a path of bare insight while other great disciples attained in even more difficult ways. It would be incredibly pompous of me to say, "If bare insight is good enough for Ananda, it's good enough for me!" How much more pompous would it be of me to say, "I will attain in the way of a fully self-enlightened Tathagata?" Kind regards, Ken H 35115 From: Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi, Herman (and Mike) - In a message dated 8/4/04 4:07:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi Mike (and hi to John as well) > > It is good to see you posting again. And I like this post very much. But > I am stuck on one little word; that word being "aim", as in "the aim of > the study". In terms of anatta, what is aim? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ========================= If I may butt in: Aim is purpose, goal, or intention. The word 'aim', as with the synonyms just mentioned, can be conventional, referring to an aggregate or patterned sequence of mental events, or it can merely mean an instance of cetana. That's how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35116 From: Antony Woods Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 5:00am Subject: Merit and Spiritual Growth by Bhikkhu Bodhi Merit and Spiritual Growth by Bhikkhu Bodhi "The performance of deeds of merit forms one of the most essential elements of Buddhist practice. Its various modes provide in their totality a compendium of applied Buddhism, showing Buddhism not as a system of ideas but as a complete way of life. Buddhist popular belief has often emphasized merit as a productive source of worldly blessings -- of health, wealth, long life, beauty and friends. As a result of this emphasis, meritorious activity has come to be conceived rather in terms of a financial investment, as a religious business venture yielding returns to the satisfaction of the agent's mundane desires. While such a conception no doubt contains an element of truth, its popularization has tended to eclipse the more important function merit plays in the context of Buddhist practice. Seen in correct perspective, merit is an essential ingredient in the harmony and completeness of the spiritual life, a means of self-cultivation, and an indispensable stepping-stone to spiritual progress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel259.html#merit 35117 From: Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment Dear Robert - In a message dated 8/4/04 6:09:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > >Hi RobK, > > > >You quoted/wrote: > > > >The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 > Notes that > >there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no > >single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there > >a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from > >multiple causes. > > > > > +++++++++ > Dear Herman, > Am hoping to have time to reply to this great question later tonight. > First I must apolgize for my expression of frustration the other day - > glad you are still speaking to me:) > I met a very soft spoken monk at the DSSF in Bangkok today. > He was talking about Pubbekkata punnatta (wholesome accumulations > from the past) and how everyone has different aspects and degrees- > one person is good at metta, another is very humble, another has > insght, another strives to study, and so on. And how also everyone must > understand Dhamma in different ways and see different aspects. He > likes Abhidhamma but doesn't expect other monks to do what he does. > > Many other discussions with Betty, Sukin, Ivan, Sujin and others about > pariyatti ( theory) and pattipatti (direct understanding) and what they > really mean. If there is right understanding then there is not the least > feeling of aversion at whatever contact is present including any > comments another makes. Then one is ready to listen carefully to what > they say - after all they might have a point. Obviously I failed the test > with that post but looking forward to doing better from here. > Some discussions clarified some matters about pattipatti that I will try to > > introduce in future posts. A very inspring day, makes me feel like > retiring from my post in Japan and settling here. > Dear Howard, > In my post To Herman I was thnking of him but did have some > frustration with something you said so please accept my apology here > too! > Kind regards > Robert > ============================= Wow, what a really admirable post this is, Robert. I bow to you! Thank you! I personally think that it is times at which we see areas in which we operate somewhat less than optimally, times of understanding which, if one is fortunate, occur to each of us, that are the most useful for us. I find that I make the least "progress" whenever I think everything is "just great" with me! ;-)) I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to read your always learned and insightful posts, Robert. I have gained much, and continue to do so, from interacting with you. As I see it, there is an area of commonality between the Zen "wu wei" teachings and the no-control/impersonality/mere-conditions emphasis of Khun Sujin and her admirers that I find interesting and appealing and useful, and I see you as standing right at the center-point of that area. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35118 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 5:19am Subject: RE: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment Hi Robert, Thank you for your kind note. I am looking forward to your reply, and am happy to wait as long as it takes. I must apologise to you and the group as well. I choose my words very unwisely and should have expressed myself in a non-abrasive way. I am very happy that you are sharing your wisdom and insight with us all. I can understand your thoughts of settling in Bangkok. My wife and I have recently purchased 15 hectares (38 acres) of virgin bushland on a hillside. It's about 40 minutes from town, and I spend a lot of time there. It is dead quiet apart from the birds, the wind in the trees and the occasional kangaroo hopping past. For me, this is ideal conditions for reflection and absorbtion. But everything that is desired is a two-edged sword. The lack of people makes it a poor location for alsmrounds, and bringing people in would spoil the conditions :-) Oh well :-) Cheers Herman > > +++++++++ Dear Herman, Am hoping to have time to reply to this great question later tonight. First I must apolgize for my expression of frustration the other day - glad you are still speaking to me:) I met a very soft spoken monk at the DSSF in Bangkok today. He was talking about Pubbekkata punnatta (wholesome accumulations from the past) and how everyone has different aspects and degrees- one person is good at metta, another is very humble, another has insght, another strives to study, and so on. And how also everyone must understand Dhamma in different ways and see different aspects. He likes Abhidhamma but doesn't expect other monks to do what he does. Many other discussions with Betty, Sukin, Ivan, Sujin and others about pariyatti ( theory) and pattipatti (direct understanding) and what they really mean. If there is right understanding then there is not the least feeling of aversion at whatever contact is present including any comments another makes. Then one is ready to listen carefully to what they say - after all they might have a point. Obviously I failed the test with that post but looking forward to doing better from here. Some discussions clarified some matters about pattipatti that I will try to introduce in future posts. A very inspring day, makes me feel like retiring from my post in Japan and settling here. Dear Howard, In my post To Herman I was thnking of him but did have some frustration with something you said so please accept my apology here too! Kind regards Robert 35119 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 8:11am Subject: Practicing the Dhamma Hello Ken & Chistine, and all, The Mahagosinga sutta reminds me of the discussions in the list because each venerable disciple of the Buddha looks at the Dhamma, by describing a bhikkhu that could illuminate the night, from different perspectives in accordance to their own proclivities. I can see many members of this list enjoying a lot the company of Ananda and Moggallana. Only a few would join Revata. Kassapa and Anurudha would be completely left on their own. Sariputta would be praised by many as the ideal described by K Sujin. The Buddha's advice is not likely to be taken very seriously and some would even doubt that the Buddha would talk like that. Metta Michael 35120 From: nidive Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 8:59am Subject: Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi RobertK, > Please tell me which mindfulness and concentration practices > sariputta learned when he became a sotapanna? Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative. I think it is unfortunate that we should take these stanzas spoken to Sariputta as clear evidence of sotapannaship through mere listening and then pondering over the present moment. Sariputta was able to decipher the cause even though the cause was not expounded. This suggests that he would have accumulated much wisdom from numerous past lives. The other factor is that these stanzas were spoken by an arahant, who probably had mind reading abilities to know the appropriate stanzas to be spoken to Sariputta. I have no doubt that there were numerous advantageous conditions present at that time that allowed Sariputta to pierce through the Dhamma with just two stanzas. But we can't apply Sariputta's conditions to ourselves. Even if we could accumulate as much "wisdom through pondering" as Sariputta over many aeons of rebirths, the chance of meeting an arahant who could expound the Dhamma exquisitely to each of us personally is virtually nil. Instead of taking such a torturous and arduous process that is fraught with uncertainties, why not take things into our hands and start to accumulate wisdom right now through deliberate mindfulness and concentration practices and achieve sotapannaship in this very life? No control and no self doesn't mean that nothing could be done. The Buddha did not teach us to be sitting ducks. He did teach us to be sitting meditators though. Regards, Swee Boon 35121 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma hi Michael! > I can see many members of this list enjoying a lot > the company of Ananda and Moggallana. Only a few > would join Revata. Kassapa and Anurudha would be > completely left on their own. Sariputta would be > praised by many as the ideal described by K Sujin. >------------------------------------------------------ As a matter of fact the suttas put all Buddha's disciples at the same footing of greatness: Kassapa's life filled up a lot of pages on Vinaya Mahavagga and till the present day he is the First Fore-Father of all Zen-Buddhism schools. Moggalana and Sariputta were acclaimed as having tantric magic powers, Subhuti were mentioned in Theravada and Mahayana Suttas as a very clever sophist, Tissa-Metteya is praised in all Buddhistic schools as the Future Buddha and so on. ------------------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha's advice is not likely to be taken very > seriously and some would even doubt that the Buddha > would talk like that. ------------------------------------------------------- At my opinion, one of the strongpoints of Theravada is the FACT that the pali Tipitaka preserves the REAL words and advices of Buddha, exactly as they were spoken by him! Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > Metta > > Michael > ===== 35122 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV 92 Hi Larry, op 04-08-2004 02:05 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Does unpleasant mental feeling only arise with > dosa? N: Yes. L: What about the uncertainty or agitation of bewilderment? Is that > not unpleasant? N: Yes, very unpleasant. Uncertainty or doubt arises only with citta rooted in moha, ignorance, and agitation which can be translated as distraction or restlessness also arises only with citta rooted in moha. It may seem that doubt arises with unpleasant feeling, but it can condition dosa with unpleasant feeling, and this arises later on. it just seems doubt and dosa arise at the same time because cittas succeed one another so fast. The Expositor (II, 344) states that It is tiring to wonder: is it this, or is it that? Is this true or not? It arises only with citta rooted in moha, ignorance condiitons doubt. The Expositor: . Understanding can cure it. When there is direct understanding of realities there is no doubt, one can directly prove the truth. Confidence grows and there will be more assurance as understanding becomes firmer, more stable. By insight doubt will wear out and the sotapanna has eradicated it. As to agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. It is not what we mean by the conventional term agitation, or excitement. This arises with each akusala citta and when it arises with the citta rooted in moha it is classified separately. This is for the next section of Vism. Nina. 35123 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV 92 Dear Icaro, op 03-08-2004 20:22 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > In portuguese Buddhistic Books I always find this > kind of translation: > > Lobha - Gan?ncia - Greed > Dosa - Ira - Rage, Hate, > Moha - Tolice - Silly, foolishness. > > Such translation has its own advantages, overlapping > the pitfall about mismatching concepts with domanassa, > patigha and so on. > (Some more of stamina, you could say!) N: There are many degrees and forms of each of these realities and one translation cannot cover all. Conventional language may give only one aspect and that can be confusing. Nina. 35124 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:27am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 92 Vis. 92 That 'rooted in hate' is of two kinds: (30)-(31) being 'accompanied-by-grief and associated-with-resentment', it is either 'prompted' or 'unprompted'. It should be understood to occur at the times when [consciousness] is either keen [if unprompted] or sluggish [if prompted] in the killing of living things, and so on. Intro: There are two types of akusala cittas rooted in aversion: 1)accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, unprompted domanassa-sahagata.m, pa.tigha-sampayuttam, asa.nkhaarikam eka.m. 2) accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, prompted domanassa-sahagata.m, pa.tigha-sampayuttam, sasa.nkhaarikam eka.m. Domanassa is derived from dummano, an unhappy mind. Pa.tigha literally means: striking against. It is used in general for sensory impingement, but here it is used for repulsion. In this context it is another word for dosa. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 16): We read in the Dhammasanga.ni, § 418: There are many shades of dosa, aversion, it may be very slight or strong. There are many synonyms of dosa that express different degrees. It can be fear, anxiety, annoyance, distress, sorrow, anger, hate, malignity, hostility or violence. The Expositor (II, p. 342) explains that dosa ruins everything that is good and beautiful, thereby showing its danger: There are nine bases of dosa. We read in the Gradual Sayings Book of the Nines, Ch III, § 9, IV, 406): ³Monks, there are these nine bases of strife. What nine? (The thought): He has done me harm-stirs up strife; so also the thoughts: he is doing me harm; he will do me harm; he has done harm to a dear and loved one of mine; he is doing harm to such an one; he will do harm to him; he has done good to one who is not dear or loved by me; he is doing good to such an one; he will do good to him...² The Dhammasanga.ni gives the same nine bases, but adds the cases that dosa arises groundlessly, when there is too much or too little rain, when the sun is too hot or not hot enough, etc. We are inclined to believe that the causes of dosa are outside ourselves, with other people or the circumstances. The real cause is within ourselves: we cling to pleasant objects and when we do not obtain them we have aversion. The circumstances or other people are not as we would like them to be. The nine bases of dosa refer to the past, the present and the future. The Tiika explains shortly why it is said that the citta rooted in dosa, aversion, is accompanied by unpleasant feeling, domanassa and associated-with-repulsion. This is in order to distinguish the character of this type of citta that is associated with dhammas that are not universal. The Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 16) explains that unpleasant feeling is not universal to all cittas. Unpleasant feeling is not universal to all cittas such as for example contact that arises with every citta. Neither is it universal to all akusala cittas. It cannot arise with the citta rooted in attachment. Unpleasant feeling arises only together with akusala citta rooted in dosa. It is stated that the citta rooted in dosa is accompanied by unpleasant feeling and associated-with-repulsion in order to stress that dosa and unpleasant feeling always arise together. Whenever the feeling is unpleasant, it shows that there is aversion at that moment. When we have even a very slight unpleasant feeling we can notice that there is dosa. We are so used to having a slight amount of uneasiness, some moodiness, irritation, worry or fear that we do not realize that dosa performs its function at that moment. When dosa is strong it also conditions the accompanying feeling to be strong. We dislike unpleasant feeling and keep on thinking of it with aversion. Dosa and its accompanying feeling only last for one extremely short moment and then they fall away with the citta. Dosa may arise again, but that is no longer the same dosa. Because of our accumulated wrong view we take dosa and unpleasant feeling for permanent and for self. Dosa is different from unpleasant feeling but since they arise together it is difficult to distinguish them from each other. Only insight that has been developed can know precisely their different characteristics. There can be awareness of them, one at a time, without having to name them. One type of citta rooted in dosa is unprompted and one is prompted. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 344): < The tenth, because it is induced Œby external aid¹, arises in one urged by others, one who remembers the offence of anothers, one who by himself keeps remembering others¹ offences and gets angry.> Listening to useless talk can give arise to many kinds of akusala cittas. When we hear about other people¹s unwholesome deeds we may have aversion, but then the cause is within ourselves. When there can be awareness of just sound or hearing, we do not pay attention to the tales of others and then the six doorways are guarded by satipatthåna. Tiika Vis. 92: It is just of two kinds by this classification in accordance with the accompanying dhammas. If it is thus, why is it said, accompanied by-grief and associated-with-resentment? In order to characterize this type of citta that is associated with dhammas that are not universal. In the destruction of life, and so on, this refers to the killing of living beings and so on. With the expression, and so on, he deals with stealing, lying, slandering, harsh speech, idle speech and ill-will. N: These are the courses of unwholesome action, akusala kamma, motivated by aversion or anger. Ill-will is akusala kamma through the mind when one has the intention to harm someone else. Tiika: He said that at the time when [consciousness] occurs it is either keen or sluggish, meaning that the citta that is by its nature keen when it occurs is just unprompted, and that the other one is prompted. However, when it occurs as sluggish it cannot be definitely known as prompted. When it occurs with the application of prompting, it should be known that it is called sluggish in that case. N: When it is prompted it is said to be sluggish, but it is not certain whenever it is sluggish that it is always prompted. **** Nina. 35125 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:28am Subject: Tiika Viis. 92, pali Vis. 92. dosamuula.m pana domanassasahagata.m pa.tighasampayutta.m asa"nkhaara.m sasa"nkhaaranti duvidhameva hoti, tassa paa.naatipaataadiisu tikkhamandappavattikaale pavatti veditabbaa. That 'rooted in hate' is of two kinds: (30)-(31) being 'accompanied-by-grief and associated-with-resentment', it is either 'prompted' or 'unprompted'. It should be understood to occur at the times when [consciousness] is either keen [if unprompted] or sluggish [if prompted] in the killing of living things, and so on. Tiika Vis. 92: Duvidhameva hoti sampayuttadhammavasena bhedaabhaavato. It is just of two kinds by this classification in accordance with the accompanying dhammas. Yadi eva.m, kasmaa ³domanassasahagata.m pa.tighasampayuttan²ti vuttanti? If it is thus, why is it said, accompanied by-grief and associated-with-resentment? Asaadhaara.nadhammehi tassa cittassa upalakkha.nattha.m. In order to characterize this type of citta that is associated with dhammas that are not universal. Paa.naatipaataadiisuuti paa.naatipaatanaadiisu. In the destruction of life, and so on, this refers to the killing of living beings and so on. Aadi-saddena adinnaadaanamusaavaadapesu~n~napharusasamphappalaapabyaapaade sa"nga.nhaati. With the expression, and so on, he deals with stealing, lying, slandering, harsh speech, idle speech and ill-will. Sabhaavatikkha.m hutvaa pavattamaana.m citta.m asa"nkhaarameva hoti, itara.m sasa"nkhaaranti adhippaayenaaha ³tikkhamandappavattikaale²ti. He said that at the time when [consciousness] occurs it is either keen or sluggish, meaning that the citta that is by its nature keen when it occurs is just unprompted, and that the other one is prompted. Manda.m pana hutvaa pavattamaana.m eka.msena sasa"nkhaaramevaati na sakkaa vi~n~naatu.m. However, when it occurs as sluggish it cannot be definitely known as prompted. Ya.m sasa"nkhaarena sappayogena pavattati, ta.m mandameva hotiiti katvaa tathaavuttanti da.t.thabba.m. When it occurs with the application of prompting, it should be known that it is called sluggish in that case. **** Nina. 35126 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Merely Pondering, no 1. Hi Howard, I just make a choice of the items, there are so many meanwhile. op 02-08-2004 01:27 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It> >> is really difficult to know hardness as rupa, we are so used to take it for >> my hand, for mine, for a thing belonging to me. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't think of hardness as something belonging to me, not even > conventionally speaking. N: I good point for considering, I suggested Sarah brings it up in Bgk. Theoretically we know and understand that there is no self, but the practice? There is an underlying idea of self, the latent tendency of wrong view that is only eradicated by the sotapanna. I try another angle. The hardness of the hand seems to be something that lasts for a while. We fail to see the arising and falling away of just the rupa that is hardness. The characteristic of impermanence is closely connected with the characteristic of anatta. What is impermanent is not self. I shall quote from my Perseverance in Dhamma: <...before someone can realize the arising and falling away of realities, thus, impermanence, paññå has to directly understand which nåma or which rúpa has arisen and appears and then falls away. In countless suttas the Buddha explained about all the objects experienced one at a time through the six doors. He explained about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, feeling, and thinking which arise all the time. These dhammas have each their own characteristic. First the specific characteristics of nåma and rúpa have to be realized before they can be known as impermanent, dukkha and anattå. Seeing, visible object, cold, hearing, these are all dhammas that each have their own characteristic. When we feel cold there are nåma and rúpa, but we do not distinguish nåma from rúpa; we have an idea, a concept of ourselves feeling cold. In reality cold impinges only on one point of the body at a time, but we join different moments of experiences together into a whole and then we have the impression of feeling cold all over the body. When we are aware of one nåma or rúpa at a time, without thinking, without trying to focus on specific realities, understanding will develop. When the first stage of tender insight, which is only a beginning stage, arises, paññå directly penetrates the characteristic of nåma as nåma and of rúpa as rúpa, without having to name them nåma and rúpa. Nåma has to be known as nåma, an element that experiences an object, and rúpa has to be known as rúpa, an element that does not know anything. They appear one at a time through the six doorways. Intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa should be correct, and in this way it can be the foundation for direct understanding. Because of our ignorance of realities we believe that we can see and hear at the same time, feel hardness of the table and see a table at the same time. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, those are cittas different from hearing. Evenso, the citta with sati and paññå only experiences one object at a time. Any reality that appears, be it seeing, colour, attachment or aversion, can be the object of sati and paññå. We are bound to take thinking for direct awareness. First we have intellectual understanding of realities, but when there are the right conditions there can be direct awareness without thinking. Then we shall know the characteristic of sati that is directly aware.> (to be continued). Nina. And this I heard on MP3: We still have the perversion of wrong remembrance of a whole body, of self, of mine. All these rupas of the body seem to be lasting, but they arise and fall away very fast. We can verify for ourselves to what extent there still is wrong view of permanence and self. I find that I confuse the six doors, confuse feeling cetasika with rupa. H: But recollection of the Dhamma at appropriate times, something most certainly wonderful and beneficial, amounts to fallout from listening, understanding, and pondering. But it does not constitute practice. What is still required are actions pursuant to that recalled knowledge. Are listening and considering the only volitional actions the Buddha recommended? Are they the *main* practices he recommended? Does one develop sila merely as fallout from hearing about it and thinking about it? Does one develop samadhi merely as fallout from hearing and thinking about it? Are intellectual knowledge and its pondering the only sources of wisdom? I don't believe that the Buddha taught what amounts to positive answers to these questions. I don't believe that the Dhamma is a "one-trick pony". N: As I wrote to Herman, the actual practice is when samma-sati and samma-ditthi arise, they do the actual practice, not we. They can arise when there has been enough listening and considering. Take the guarding of the six doors. Sati and pañña perform these functions, and they do so irrespective of time and place, when confronted with other people or in situations of daily life. That is where we can practise right speech, not when we are on our own. I think once we have understood this, the Q about how and when is there practice becomes irrelevant. The akusala cittas are conditioned by the latent tendencies and it is all unforeseeable when they arise. But by guarding the doorways now, just now, by awareness of one object appearing through one of these doors, we actually prepare the ground for right sila. Sila includes all kusala through body, speech and mind. I do not see sila as rules that are imposed, nor as merely restraining, but rather as a change from akusala to kusala by pañña. Also samatha and vipassana are practice. Samatha includes also the recollections mentioned before that are suitable for all occasions. Recollection of the teachings, such as are explained in the Abhidhamma. H: ...(snipped) I wholeheartedly approve of and endorse "listening with the purpose of considering, understanding and applying what one heard in the circumstances of daily life." The question is what constitutes applying the knowledge gained through listening and considering. The Buddha included the "how to" as part of his teaching. But if we do not carry that out, then we are not following his Dhamma. N: I tried to explain above, and I agree, these are crucial points. It is not easy to explain these things, I find. If it is not clear, I try other angles. I also realize that each time I speak about the first stage of insight and rupas it is a delicate subject for you, knowing what you think about the experience of rupas. But visible object appears, it is different from sound and we can be aware of them. Visible object is not seeing. Why did the Buddha with so much insistence speak in the suttas about the six doorways, the objects experienced through them, the cittas that experience them? I think he wanted to say: be aware of each object seperately, as it appears, so that there is heedfulness. Do not delay being aware of what appears through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. Be aware now so that the six doors are guarded. This is the practice. Nina. 35127 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fewness of wishes Dear Andrew L, op 03-08-2004 21:15 schreef suicidal_one2004 op andrewlevin@e... > > Sounds like a good topic, only I'm still studying the Vissudhimagga, > not really up to Abhidharma. But perhaps I'll watch from the > sidelines. (What is a consciousness that is 'prompted'?) N: When you, with strong confidence in kusala, give something away that is useful for someone else, and this without hesitation, spontaneously, the citta, consciousness, is unprompted. When you are not inclined to generosity, but a friend places a gift in your hand and kindly encourages you to give, the citta is prompted. Or, you consider for yourself that generosity is good and give after some hesitation, the citta is prompted. in the case of citta rooted in aversion: We read in the Expositor (II, p. 344): < The tenth, because it is induced Œby external aid¹, arises in one urged by others, one who remembers the offence of anothers, one who by himself keeps remembering others¹ offences and gets angry.> A..... I am going light on the > ascetic practises as described in the Vissudhimagga, but I still think > it's good as they are praised for creating fewness of wishes, > contentment, etc, *very* good qualitities to have, so maybe I'll pick > it up sometime in the future. N: fewness of wishes, contentment with little. Good things also for laypeople, I agree. A. Sujin said: it is good if we can just detach a little from what we experience through the senses, we can accumulate detachment. I think: a little less food, less sleep, less watching T.V., these are good things to accumulate. Buying less goodies, just what you need to have, there are many ways. When helping others, such as my old father, we can think less of our own confort and pleasure or relaxation. All these are many ways of ascetism, fewness of wishes. Good you brought it up. These are aspects of the teachings that deserve more emphasis. Nina. 35128 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV 92 Hi Nina: > N: There are many degrees and forms of each of these > realities and one > translation cannot cover all. Conventional language > may give only one aspect > and that can be confusing. ------------------------------------------------------ At your post about the Atthasallini (The Expositor) I read that Domanassa, Patigha, etc, are rooted on Dosa (Hate , Fear, Rage and so on). At least at my own viewpoint they don't have necessarily the same meaning. No need to confusion, Nina! Pali and conventional language has his own niche on practical matters, without fall into the abyss made between Sanksrit and other Prakrit dialects... I am thinking about the differences between the Pali used on Canon texts as the Dhammasangani and their Tiikas, for example. Are the Tiikas a "practical report"of issues on original text? Or are they a further development of the basic ideas ? In my opinion, both! And there's no confusion, since if Domanassa are rooted on Dosa, for example, they aren't the same event or being! Corrections are welcome indeed! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== 35129 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 0:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Hello Ícaro, Ícaro: At my opinion, one of the strongpoints of Theravada is the FACT that the pali Tipitaka preserves the REAL words and advices of Buddha, exactly as they were spoken by him! Michael: Very Good! I am happy to hear that. So, what are you waiting to follow the Buddha's advice then? This is what he said: "Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, folds his legs crosswise, sets his body erect, and establisrung mindfulness in front of him, resolves: 'I shall not break this sitting position until through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints.' Metta Michael 35130 From: connieparker Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 1:35pm Subject: Re: anapanasati UPs - easier list to look at On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:36:10 +0100 (BST), sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Connie, > > thx for your very clear notes were they? good. Thank You. i'm sure i was confused on the queery stuff. still reading. all i've gotten so far is that if you're going to follow the buddha's rules, you hold your breath and practice towards "monkhood" because if you want to hear a sutta you have to be in the audience. Anapanasati - (Jon to Rob Ep, Sept 16): a naturally arising object in *their* daily life ... (monks) who are already highly adept at attending to the breath [(actually, its nimitta) as an object of samatha, and for those persons the sutta is indeed about the discernment of an 'everyday object'. on practice toward monkhood: The Dhp, xxv bhikkhuvagga advises: 360-good is restraint everywhere; [365-Gains: A monk who covets [...] attains no concentration.]; 375: ..first things for a discerning monk: guarding senses, contentment, patimokkha restraint, he should assoc w/**admirablefriends **the mass of people have no principles. - dhpxxiii 320, however: beings adopting right views go to a good destination. - ( ) 380: your own self is your own mainstay, guide. therefore, watch over as a fine steed A quote from another book of sayings: Heart of a Buddha: We do not truly understand that everything arises from our minds, that every thought we have is instantly felt throughout the entire universe. the late Johnny Cash, "bound, by wild desire, I fell into to a ring of fire..." from a nun on Mp3 - a chant of ignorance: "it shouldn't be this way". pray, in passing, the first clinging is to path knowledge, however mundane... and not just recursive thought. peace, connie - I've now reorganised anapanasati which > will be incorporated when next update is posted in files. I checked the > queery posts and your help was very much appreciated. I've now separated > the series from the rest. > > Metta, > > Sarah 35131 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 1:37pm Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam] RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Herman, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman Hofman" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 1:01 AM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control > Hi Mike (and hi to John as well) > > It is good to see you posting again. And I like this post very much. Thanks, Herman-- > But > I am stuck on one little word; that word being "aim", as in "the aim of > the study". In terms of anatta, what is aim? I'm speaking pretty conventionally, but still what I have in mind is intent, I guess--in the sense of 'intention' and at least closely related to the cetasika cetanaa which is also kamma if I'm not mistaken--so very important with regard both to rebirth and to liberation. In the course of everyday experience, intention is (or seems) always very 'mixed', many different roots and so on succeeding each other so rapidly as to seem to blend together. Whether in the conventional or 'ultimate' sense, though, still ultimately anatta, I think. mike 35132 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 1:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control/Herman Hey Herman, H> I hope I am not just rehashing old well-worn arguments. E: Well it is good to go over them now and again. Seems many people just gloss over them, etc. H> Either free will or determinism as absolutes are absurd in my book. E: Which is why I synthesized the two. Is the only 'real' (determined) freedom the complete letting go into determinism? H> There is this: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place (or: unestablished)."[1] E: The first sutta in the Samyutta. Lovely! H> "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" E: The flood being the flood of sensuality. H> "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, Isank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html#n1 E: I talked about this with Thanissaro when I met him. He thinks it is a paradox but I feel otherwise. You see I whitewater kayak on occasion. What the Buddha is describing here is a technique called ferrying. You paddle into the current upstream and at an angle. If you do it right, you effortlessly cross the stream by neither tarrying nor straining. You use the current of the stream to get you across. It all depends on how you enter the stream! Same thing when meditating. You can not fight vedana, but you can use it to push the mind to a state of calmer waters where the other shore may come into view. H> When one understands themselves as a self, grasping at anatta will cause sinking. E: Yes or grasping at sensuality. You sink into the stream of it. H > When one overestimates their own freedom one will be whirled about. Mindfulness leads the way. E: My take is that if you try and fight against the sense bases, you will eventually get overun. You don't have the energy to fight them. Ferrying across using contact is the only way (unless there is a bridge ,etc.). H > And what's over the flood? Certainly not a place where either free will or determinism play any part. E > Indeed! H > Don't know when, don't know how, but of one thing I am sure, this body is bound to die. And with it all those things that are dependent on this body. E: Who cares? :-) H > Peace to you too, my friend E: ...and to you Herman! E 35133 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 2:07pm Subject: Re: A way to make merit and reduce lust at the same time A> I am very interested in making merit and reducing greed or lust, hatred and delusion. Any ideas from the Group would be appreciated. E: Simply stop being greedy, lustful and hating! Delusion, that is a tricky one but I am not sure why? ;-) PEACE E PS Funny story on merit. Someone asked the Buddha about merit and asked if it was better than material things. The Buddha said, oh yes much better! The person asked how too get it? The Buddha said give everything you have away to the needy and then you will have much merit. The person asked, then what do you do with the merit. The Buddha said, Oh you give that away too! PPS You possess only that which cannot be lost in a shipwreck. (old sufi saying) 35134 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 2:14pm Subject: Re: Practicing the Dhamma Ken> > As I recall, the 10 day meditation courses conducted by S N Goenka > end in a session pure determination. (Or is it `grim > determination,' I forget what he called it.) Not surprisingly, > nothing ever comes of it – just more leg and back pain than in the > other sessions. E: Well then you would have confirmed the 1st and 2nd truths and also that there is no permanent happiness to be found in the body or vedana! Check out A. Boowa's story. He started sitting all night long. He says that a pain ensues that effects every cell of the body. He says that normal dukkha vedana is like a cat compared to an elephant in regards to this pain. He says he conquered it and even the pain of death will not be greater than the pain he felt while sitting. He also got rid of all his fears during this time. PEACE E 35135 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma > Michael: > > Very Good! I am happy to hear that. So, what are you waiting to follow the Buddha's advice then? This is what he said: Oh come on, this was paraphrased. See my aditions below ++++ > "Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, folds his legs crosswise, sets his body erect, and establisrung mindfulness in front of him, ++++ cracks open the vissudhimagga and abhidhamma and gets a nitty gritty down and dirty refined as mouse tail hair intellectual understanding of how all the namas and rupas go together and come apart and is convinced that what I am saying is logically correct, ++++ > resolves: 'I shall not break this sitting position until through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints.' :-) PEACE E 35136 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma dear Michael, Have you ever read the Vinaya texts ? They were the original texts concerning disciplinary tracts between Bhikkhus...there are so many rules that you will be amused out and happy to be a simple layperson!!!! But facts are facts... at the Mahavagga is stated on that in the Uposatha days all Sangha must recite the Dhamma, or in other words, read the Pattimokkha, the main Vinaya text. I follow the Pattimokkha as a layperson...and read my Dhammasangani,putting mindfulness in action too. Do the same! mettaya, Ícaro > Very Good! I am happy to hear that. So, what are you > waiting to follow the Buddha's advice then? This is > what he said: > > "Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from > his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, folds > his legs crosswise, sets his body erect, and > establisrung mindfulness in front of him, resolves: > 'I shall not break this sitting position until > through not clinging my mind is liberated from the > taints.' > > Metta > > Michael > ===== 35137 From: Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/4/04 6:32:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > As I recall, the 10 day meditation courses conducted by S N Goenka > end in a session pure determination. (Or is it `grim > determination,' I forget what he called it.) Not surprisingly, > nothing ever comes of it – just more leg and back pain than in the > other sessions. ========================= What you are talking about is merely the determination to not move at all during a one-hour meditation, and this came well into the retreat at a stage at which concentration and calm were quite strong - so it was anything but an ordeal. As far as "nothing coming from it" - well - I didn't find that to be the case. I found it very helpful. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35138 From: Andrew Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 4:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Herman Yep, what you say sounds pretty good to me. Some comments below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [snip]> I think I agree with you. But I would word it differently. Where you say > "It must be realized...." I would say "It will be realized if x y and > z". A wordling who grasps upfront at the theoretical idea of anatta will > only succeed at suppressing the realisation that the belief in a self > forms the basis of all their perceptions and actions. Andrew: For worldlings, does "belief in self" form the basis of ALL perception and action? Is it *necessarily so* that a conscious attempt to understand the theory of anatta will "suppress" realisation of the pervasiveness of "belief in self"? Herman, I'm not sure of the answers to these questions but I have a feeling that your premises here are not true across the board. [snip]> I did say that control is only partial. > Are you totally denying the thought of any degree of control whatsoever? > Or are you talking here from an a-priori belief in what you think you > must realise? Andrew: If there is control, who is the controller? Our intellects now jump up and shout "there is no controller because of anatta. It's a non-self process involving intentional directing." But what I think we must acknowledge is that the process is too fast and complex for us to "see". For me, the question whether or not there is some degree of control is a red herring. The more relevant proposition is that the presence of intentional directing does *not* equate to the presence of a permanent self. This is hard for me to grasp because it goes counter to my dominant (wrong) understanding. [snip]> I am less interested in what the no-controllers say, than in what they > do :-). What they do is a far better indicator of where they stand with > regards to the present moment :-) And while they may claim a position of > no-control, I assume that to be an entirely theoretical position. Andrew: How can we say about another person that their position is entirely theoretical? How can we know that? We can't. There may be significant wisdom and "direct knowing" involved. What we can say is that "we have no confidence that the view taken by these people is anything more than an unproven theory" i.e. we can make a statement about us, not them. And IF we are talking about a view actually taught by a Buddha, we are verbalising a lack of saddha. > An interesting ethical aside. If you were a learned judge (perhaps you > are one, in which case, sorry :-)), would you enforce personal > accountability and responsibility in your courtroom, or would you sit > cross-legged and encourage people to do whatever they are inclined to do > ? Andrew: No, I'm not a judge. Of course, law and ethics are not necessarily the same - as people like Christmas Humphreys found out. With your question, do you want a conventional answer or an ultimate one? I get the impression, Herman, that you are dissatisfied with the presence of 2 sacca (truths). Yes, the Buddha did give all manner of conventional advice (take 2 steps west and 4 steps north) but it is always with a last proviso of "of course, conventional things are not really as they seem" (to get the real treasure, you have to dig down to another level). Things aren't as they seem! > I think the Dhamma is about suffering and the end of suffering. Do you > think that people who are not aware of their suffering would want to > find out about it? The dhamma becomes a treasure only when suffering is > realized. You cannot tell the blissfully ignorant that they are > suffering. But people who know they are suffering will follow the > instructions of the doctor till they get relief. Andrew: Why can't you tell the blissfully ignorant that they are suffering? Doctors do it every day. The Buddha did it too. Gotta go. Best wishes Andrew 35139 From: Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 1:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A way to make merit and reduce lust at the same time Hi, Eric - In a message dated 8/4/04 5:09:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericlonline@y... writes: > A> I am very interested in making merit and reducing greed or lust, > hatred and delusion. Any ideas from the Group would be appreciated. > > E: Simply stop being greedy, lustful and hating! > Delusion, that is a tricky one but I am not sure > why? ;-) > > PEACE > > E > ============================ I had to laugh when reading "Simply stop being greedy, lustful and hating!" Were it that easy! I know - just say "Let there be equanimity!" ;-)) Happily, I do not have an aversive nature. That is not a big problem with me. Nor am I greedy in the selfish sense. But craving/desire is my strongest area of vulnerability. And, in my experience, when there is *any* area of deficit that is really strong, more than subtlety is required. There is "teeth clenching" resistance required. The Buddha said that one must, as a last resort, when all else fails, forcefully suppress akusala reactions, and I believe he was quite right. At times, I think, one needs to be a "Dhamma Warrior", engaging in "Dhamma Combat". By that I don't mean the "Dharma Combat" of the Zen folks, sparring with words, but the sort of "combat" which pits one quite forcefully against Mara's minions that have set up shop in one's mind. There are times at which one must put aside subtle responses and engage in full battle. Each of us has to determine for him/herself when that time has come. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35140 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Hi Michael, I see you have rejected my theory that only a Bodhisattva sits down fully determined not stand up until he has attained complete enlightenment. Suit yourself, you could be right (I'm having second thoughts about it myself). :-) The outstanding advantage offered by DSG is the time it can save you. Before coming here, many of us had spent years, if not decades, practising Buddhism with wrong understanding. Now, in virtually one easy lesson, we have made up for that lost time. That is because, at DSG, the Dhamma is explained in the way we needed to hear it. In this conditioned world there are only dhammas – citta, cetasikas and rupas. They arise to create a moment of consciousness and then fall away forever. All conditioned dhammas are impermanent and unsatisfactory, and all dhammas (including the unconditioned Nibbana) are not self. Before hearing this explanation, we had wasted countless hours sitting cross-legged, trying to be (or pretending to be) something we were not. But that was never the Buddha's intention: he taught us only to know the present dhammas regardless of whether they were supramundane or mundane, commendable or deplorable. If you can give this view of the Dhamma a chance, please do so: it can you save decades – or even aeons. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > > Very Good! I am happy to hear that. So, what are you waiting to follow the Buddha's advice then? This is what he said: > > "Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, folds his legs crosswise, sets his body erect, and establisrung mindfulness in front of him, resolves: 'I shall not break this sitting position until through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints.' > > Metta > > Michael 35141 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 6:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Hello Ken, I am happy for you that you find your right place here. Also thanks for your advice but I respectfully decline it. There are too many points of disagreement with the main stream thinking in this list for me to stay here and create a nuisance to myself and others. I just came back to check if things had changed. I will leave again soon and maybe come back some time in the future to see how things are going. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Hi Michael, I see you have rejected my theory that only a Bodhisattva sits down fully determined not stand up until he has attained complete enlightenment. Suit yourself, you could be right (I'm having second thoughts about it myself). :-) The outstanding advantage offered by DSG is the time it can save you. Before coming here, many of us had spent years, if not decades, practising Buddhism with wrong understanding. Now, in virtually one easy lesson, we have made up for that lost time. That is because, at DSG, the Dhamma is explained in the way we needed to hear it. In this conditioned world there are only dhammas - citta, cetasikas and rupas. They arise to create a moment of consciousness and then fall away forever. All conditioned dhammas are impermanent and unsatisfactory, and all dhammas (including the unconditioned Nibbana) are not self. Before hearing this explanation, we had wasted countless hours sitting cross-legged, trying to be (or pretending to be) something we were not. But that was never the Buddha's intention: he taught us only to know the present dhammas regardless of whether they were supramundane or mundane, commendable or deplorable. If you can give this view of the Dhamma a chance, please do so: it can you save decades - or even aeons. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" ...> wrote: > > > Very Good! I am happy to hear that. So, what are you waiting to follow the Buddha's advice then? This is what he said: > > "Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, folds his legs crosswise, sets his body erect, and establisrung mindfulness in front of him, resolves: 'I shall not break this sitting position until through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints.' > > Metta > > Michael 35142 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > You quoted/wrote: > > The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 Notes that > there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no > single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there > a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from > multiple causes. > > > ============================== > Given the above, how can any reality be known as being irreducible? > (paramattha dhamma) > > Herman Dear Herman, Nice to hear about your new property. In Thailand even the forest temples seem to be within walking distance of a village (which of course the monks need for alms round). But Auss. has true wilderness.In the early nineties I spent a couple of days at a forest temple where phra Khantipalo lived- a couple of hours west of sydney. Just getting there was an adventure! I have memories of snakes and large lizards and strange birds (maybe kookaburras?) . Now I try to answer your question. When a scientist sees a table he doesn"t stop there and say - "it's so obvious this is a table , what else is to be known." He breaks it down into its component parts - the elements, oxygen, carbon.....He knows each element conditions the other elemenst present in the different moleculr structurrs but he also looks into each element separately. He goes further , finds out about neutrons and electrons and further to quarks and on. Finding nothing substanial. He knows there really is no solid table - but the knowing is still only conceptual, it won't lead to detachment. The same for the one who only reads abhidhamma. In the beginning of insighting paramattha dhammas (dhatus, ayatanas, khandas), what is gradually apparent is the nature of the element that is contacted- so rupa is different from nama. Hardness is differnt from heat. Pleasant feeling is different from unpleasant ... But because it is panna, not self, that is doing the insighting there is also some understanding of the conditioned nature of each element. This doesn't have to be in words - it can be knowing without conceptualising. So gradually the different conditions that conditioned the paramttha dhamma are known. According to the visuddhimagga, at a certain level of insight the conditioned nature of dhammas becomes very clear - and then there is no more doubt that each moment has to be conditioned. And this is so profound that one has no doubt about past and future lives - one sees this moment is just like every moment. It would be like douting whether gravity will keep working. And all from deepening insight into the moment. Also each moment is unique. So while pleasant feeling is pleasant feeling whether it happens today or tommorow or last life no two plesant moments are identical. That is because so many different conditioning factors work simultaneously to condition each moment. Again we should not think of paramattha dhammas as some sort of solid "atom". Time itself can only be understood by the arising and falling away of the elements- and because they are present for an infinitisimly short time what is insighted is almost a trace of what they left behind. So the teaching in the Abhidhamma can only point to what is real and explain it as clearly as words allow but actual panna doesn't need any thinking (in words) because it percieves reality directly. Nevertheless the words help a great deal, they help factors such as saddha to grow. And these various factors support direct insight and make it strong. Another point is that while one element may be apparent any moment there are other elements co-existing. So hardness may be the factor that shows itself but also feeling is there too (and maybe the next moment it is feeling that will be apparent). Usually the many different elements are not seen as they are but instead a shadow world is seen , where they are all mixed up is, much as a non-scientist thinks about a table. One can't merely focus on the elements and expect to see this. It needs the right tools - not simply the desire to see. For the table scientist he has to invent many different subtle machines to assist his investaigation. For the insight worker it is the various mental factors (the 37 Bojjhanga) that lead to enlightenment that work their way (not I, not me). I think this post has gone around your question rather than answered it directly so please ask again and I will retry. Robert 35143 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 9:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Hi Michael, I have a number of posts to reply to, but your post has jumped the queue. If it is of any value to you, I do not consider your posts as nuisances. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think you express yourself very skillfully, and the list is richer for your contributions. I suspect that there are a number of posters who from time to time may feel that they are sore thumbs because of dissenting views, this little black duck (ie moi) being one of them. I encourage you to reconsider, if only for my sake :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: Michael Beisert [mailto:mbeisert@h...] Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2004 11:42 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Hello Ken, I am happy for you that you find your right place here. Also thanks for your advice but I respectfully decline it. There are too many points of disagreement with the main stream thinking in this list for me to stay here and create a nuisance to myself and others. I just came back to check if things had changed. I will leave again soon and maybe come back some time in the future to see how things are going. Metta Michael 35144 From: Benjamin Nugent Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 8:22pm Subject: Hello, > In this conditioned world there are only dhammas - citta, cetasikas > and rupas. They arise to create a moment of consciousness and then > fall away forever. All conditioned dhammas are impermanent and > unsatisfactory, and all dhammas (including the unconditioned > Nibbana) are not self. I am so very stupid and not at all knowledgable of your dhamma philosophy (*note the feigned ignorance). Does anybody know what a concept is? Who can tell me? Bet you can't do it without giving me two more. Or better yet, try taking a concept away from me without giving me another. Lets say....the concept of I. Are you up to it? Well you've made it to the second paragraph. Very good. Hmmm, or should I say very indifferent so you don't get attached to your 'progress.' Lets stop to think about it. Tell me when you've understood by describing the color red to my friend Ray over there [1]. Back away from the squiggly black lines. They are nothing without the whiteness that defines them. Rupa is nothing without the citta that defines it [2]. Cetasika is open to interpretation, and because of this, it defines itself. Heheh. Meaning is a paradox...or perhaps just one, but who's counting anyway. Oh yeah, those folks in the pro-meditation camp...."in one, out one...in two, out two..." What were you doing right before you came across the question mark at the end of this sentence? ...[3]? Concentrate! Look there it is! Suffering. Look, there is its cause! ...Well? Sorry, I was too busy playing with the idea of freedom to see that there is none. Oh well. At least we have each other. Metta, (about as meaningful an ending as "how are you doing?" is a rhetorical question) Ben Notes: [1] - Those who got the Ray Charles reference get an 'A'...for 'American.' This isn't grade school after all. It's life and it's VERY SERIOUS. [2] - What? You know what those words mean...right? You use them all the time. [3] - Don't look at me. 35145 From: Wendy Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 8:44pm Subject: Free dhamma book There is a free dhamma (Theravada / Vipassana) book offered at the following link: http://www.vipassanafoundation.com 35146 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Dear Michael (& Herman), I agree with Herman’s kind request. What’s the hurry? --- Herman Hofman wrote: > I have a number of posts to reply to, but your post has jumped the > queue. If it is of any value to you, I do not consider your posts as > nuisances. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think you express yourself > very skillfully, and the list is richer for your contributions. ... S: I fully agree - I appreciate our discussions and your careful and deep reflections a lot. Often we fail to agree, but that’s besides the point....;-) As Herman says, you (or your posts) are certainly not a nuisance at all. .... H: > suspect that there are a number of posters who from time to time may > feel that they are sore thumbs because of dissenting views, this little > black duck (ie moi) being one of them. .... S: ;-) And when we feel like a sore thumb (I’m sure we all do at times), isn’t it just because of attachment and conceit with regard to oneself and others again? When we try to help others (with less dust in their eyes, of course) to understand a little of what we consider right, there’s no agitation or nuisance or sore thumb - right? .... H: > I encourage you to reconsider, if only for my sake :-) ... Ditto. Michael, you’ve hardly started, though I appreciated the sutta after being left in suspense for so many months;-). At that time, you also mentioned a promise that you would ‘post the Ktv comments in the list’ as well for further discussion. I’ve kept them, so can help out if you don’t have your copy!! They related to the first book, ‘Existence of a Personal Entity’ and the meaning of something ‘known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact’. You also raised points on ‘matter as a result of kamma’. I’d love to discuss these and any other aspects or areas with you from the text, but it can’t be rushed -- I tend to be rather slow with responses for a start and I’d need to check my facts and I remember you are always very systematic and read texts in detail and depth. I’m also interested to hear about your trip to Brazil (did you see Icaro or any of our other new Brazilian members?). Also did you go on the retreat with Leigh Brasington I think you referred to before? Many people will be interested to hear about it if so. I wonder if you heard back from B.Gunaratana on magga and phala which I think you said he’d asserted to be ‘separate events’ or considered those suttas further. Lots to discuss. I also hope your website is going well - I’ve given the link to occasional new Portuguese speakers here. Michael, I know it must be frustrating talking to some of us ‘stuck’ in our views, but know that many lurkers will appreciate your efforts if you persevere. Whilst there’s no point in going out of our way to accumulate such frustration or agitation, I don’t think we should see it as a hindrance to practice. The characteristics of any presently arising dhammas can and should be known - these (frustration, agitation etc) are conditioned dhammas of no greater or lesser value as objects than any others. Any comments so far? In any case, thanks for dropping by and sharing your feedback - it’s always good to hear from old friends;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 35147 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Ícaro: > > At my opinion, one of the strongpoints of Theravada > > is the FACT that the pali Tipitaka preserves the REAL > > words and advices of Buddha, exactly as they were > > spoken by him! > ++++++++++++++++++++ > Michael: > > Very Good! I am happy to hear that. So, what are you waiting to follow the Buddha's advice then? This is what he said: > > "Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, folds his legs crosswise, sets his body erect, and establisrung mindfulness in front of him, resolves: 'I shall not= break this sitting position until through not clinging my mind is liberated= from the taints.' Metta Michael ++++++++++ Dear Michael, There is another possibilty when reading this word of the Buddha: that many suttas were given to specific people who the Buddha knew fully their accumulations. .I think this is meant for the Bhikkhu who has already understood what sati is and has the conditions such that it arises easily, a very rare and advanced person. I dont think the Buddha was saying everyone should do this with the expectation that anyone who sat still long enough would be an arahant. Robert 35148 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hi Howard, KH: > > As I recall, the 10 day meditation courses conducted by S N Goenka > end in a session of pure determination. (Or is it `grim > determination,' I forget what he called it.) Not surprisingly, > nothing ever comes of it - just more leg and back pain than in the > other sessions. > > ========================= H: > What you are talking about is merely the determination to not move at all during a one-hour meditation, > ------------------------------------- KH: You're right, I remember now - although in his talk before the session, Mr Goenka did mention how the Bodhisattva took an oath that he would remain sitting until he had attained enlightenment. But, as you say, the emphasis for us was on determination to remain still: there was no suggestion of attaining. ---------------------------- H: > and this came well into the retreat at a stage at which concentration and calm were quite strong - so it was anything but an ordeal. > ------------------------------ KH: It has been at least fifteen years since I attended the course, but I remember quite a lot of it. At the time, I had no idea about Abhidhamma. I didn't know what Buddhism was, but I knew what it wasn't, and so I was disconcerted by the religiosity and the hints of cult mentality I saw there. I remember one very keen, very impressionable young fellow (probably only seventeen) whose head was already filled with New Age nonsense and stories about yogis enduring pain. To his credit, he followed Goenka's instructions to the letter in that he sat in the lotus position, unmoving, throughout every meditation period. Whenever it was his turn to walk down to the front and be questioned by the assistant teachers, there would be a long, long delay as he massaged some life back into his paralysed legs. Even then, he staggered rather than walked. I suspect all he got out of the course was a susceptibility to deep-vein thrombosis. ------------------ H: > As far as "nothing coming from it" - well - I didn't find that to be the case. I found it very helpful > ------------------- That's where we differ. I genuinely believe I gain more from every DSG discussion than I gained from the entire 10-day course and all my formal practices put together. Take, for example, your conversation today with Nina (extract pasted below). Kind regards, Ken H N: As I wrote to Herman, the actual practice is when samma-sati and samma-ditthi arise, they do the actual practice, not we. They can arise when there has been enough listening and considering. Take the guarding of the six doors. Sati and pañña perform these functions, and they do so irrespective of time and place, when confronted with other people or in situations of daily life. That is where we can practise right speech, not when we are on our own. I think once we have understood this, the Q about how and when is there practice becomes irrelevant. The akusala cittas are conditioned by the latent tendencies and it is all unforeseeable when they arise. But by guarding the doorways now, just now, by awareness of one object appearing through one of these doors, we actually prepare the ground for right sila. Sila includes all kusala through body, speech and mind. I do not see sila as rules that are imposed, nor as merely restraining, but rather as a change from akusala to kusala by pañña. Also samatha and vipassana are practice. Samatha includes also the recollections mentioned before that are suitable for all occasions. Recollection of the teachings, such as are explained in the Abhidhamma. H: ...(snipped) I wholeheartedly approve of and endorse "listening with the purpose of considering, understanding and applying what one heard in the circumstances of daily life." The question is what constitutes applying the knowledge gained through listening and considering. The Buddha included the "how to" as part of his teaching. But if we do not carry that out, then we are not following his Dhamma. N: I tried to explain above, and I agree, these are crucial points. It is not easy to explain these things, I find. If it is not clear, I try other angles. I also realize that each time I speak about the first stage of insight and rupas it is a delicate subject for you, knowing what you think about the experience of rupas. But visible object appears, it is different from sound and we can be aware of them. Visible object is not seeing. Why did the Buddha with so much insistence speak in the suttas about the six doorways, the objects experienced through them, the cittas that experience them? I think he wanted to say: be aware of each object seperately, as it appears, so that there is heedfulness. Do not delay being aware of what appears through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. Be aware now so that the six doors are guarded. This is the practice. 35149 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 10:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Reading between the lines, I suspect you have some very sharp insights to share (conceptually of course, but then, that is language, right?) But, like you, I am a very fragile person. From your post, I am not sure if you just want to rip me apart, share your wit with me, or share your wisdom with me. Maybe a combination of all three. To get a better idea of what is going on, I am going to carefully stick my neck out just a little bit, and see what happens. Here goes: Hi Ben, How are you doing? I figure you're American. Never mind :-). I'm Dutch-Australian. Which is not much of an improvement. If you are new to the group, then a hearty welcome to you. If you have posted before, then that's dementia praecox for you. Language is conceptual. I accept that I will not be able to type anything meaningful to you if you do not understand the concepts I am using. But I'm willing to give it a go. What do you want to type about? Metta Herman PS :-) -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Nugent [mailto:benjamin_nugent@h...] Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2004 1:22 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Hello, > In this conditioned world there are only dhammas - citta, cetasikas > and rupas. They arise to create a moment of consciousness and then > fall away forever. All conditioned dhammas are impermanent and > unsatisfactory, and all dhammas (including the unconditioned > Nibbana) are not self. I am so very stupid and not at all knowledgable of your dhamma philosophy (*note the feigned ignorance). Does anybody know what a concept is? Who can tell me? Bet you can't do it without giving me two more. Or better yet, try taking a concept away from me without giving me another. Lets say....the concept of I. Are you up to it? Well you've made it to the second paragraph. Very good. Hmmm, or should I say very indifferent so you don't get attached to your 'progress.' Lets stop to think about it. Tell me when you've understood by describing the color red to my friend Ray over there [1]. Back away from the squiggly black lines. They are nothing without the whiteness that defines them. Rupa is nothing without the citta that defines it [2]. Cetasika is open to interpretation, and because of this, it defines itself. Heheh. Meaning is a paradox...or perhaps just one, but who's counting anyway. Oh yeah, those folks in the pro-meditation camp...."in one, out one...in two, out two..." What were you doing right before you came across the question mark at the end of this sentence? ...[3]? Concentrate! Look there it is! Suffering. Look, there is its cause! ...Well? Sorry, I was too busy playing with the idea of freedom to see that there is none. Oh well. At least we have each other. Metta, (about as meaningful an ending as "how are you doing?" is a rhetorical question) Ben Notes: [1] - Those who got the Ray Charles reference get an 'A'...for 'American.' This isn't grade school after all. It's life and it's VERY SERIOUS. [2] - What? You know what those words mean...right? You use them all the time. [3] - Don't look at me. 35150 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 4, 2004 11:01pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: anapanasati UPs - easier list to look at Hi Connie, I gotta say, I love your posts!!! Gotta snip a bit, to stay on Sarah's good side :-) =========================================== A quote from another book of sayings: Heart of a Buddha: We do not truly understand that everything arises from our minds, that every thought we have is instantly felt throughout the entire universe. the late Johnny Cash, "bound, by wild desire, I fell into to a ring of fire..." from a nun on Mp3 - a chant of ignorance: "it shouldn't be this way". ========================================== which reminded me of the following: I reckon that old crooner Perry Como must have been lampooning when he sang those immortal words: "Catch a falling citta, and put it in your pocket, never let it fade away" See you around Herman 35151 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 0:16am Subject: Re: Practicing the Dhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > Ícaro: > > > > At my opinion, one of the strongpoints of Theravada > > > > is the FACT that the pali Tipitaka preserves the REAL > > > > words and advices of Buddha, exactly as they were > > > > spoken by him! > > ++++++++++++++++++++ > > Michael: > > > > Very Good! I am happy to hear that. So, what are you waiting to > follow the Buddha's advice then? This is what he said: > > > > "Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from his almsround, > after his meal, he sits down, folds his legs crosswise, sets his body > erect, and establisrung mindfulness in front of him, resolves: 'I shall not= > > break this sitting position until through not clinging my mind is liberated= > > from the taints.' > Metta > Michael > ++++++++++ > Dear Michael, > There is another possibilty when reading this word of the Buddha: that > many suttas were given to specific people who the Buddha knew fully > their accumulations. .I think this is meant for the Bhikkhu who has > already understood what sati is and has the conditions such that it > arises easily, a very rare and advanced person. > I dont think the Buddha was saying everyone should do this with the > expectation that anyone who sat still long enough would be an arahant. > Robert Friend Robert, I can understand why you might think that this sutta is directed toward an advanced practitioner, since the Buddha states that the bhikkhu should resolve not to break the sitting posture until the mind has been liberated from the taints, but I think that you are missing the bigger picture. The Buddha here is giving instructions: After eating sit down, establish mindfulness, and resolve not to break the sitting posture until the mind is liberated. What's wrong with that? The Buddha emphasized this because it wouldn't be as effective for the bhikkhu to sit with absolutely no goals and no expectations and no effort (then it would be a ritual). He didn't say that the bhikkhu MUST sit until he is liberated, just that he should `RESOLVE' to sit until he is liberated. Of course, if the bhikkhu doesn't become liberated eventually he will have to sleep and eat and go to the bathroom, etc. But those will be things that will be beyond his control. So, again the next day he would sit and resolve again not to move until his mind is liberated. He should do this each time that he sits…that is what the Buddha was teaching, in my opinion. Metta, James 35152 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 1:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Sarah, (and everyone else too, but that goes without saying :-)) ... S: Glad we're all agreed on this :-)) I thought at first that your questions below were some esoteric Pali ones, but as usual they’re even deeper than that....let’s have a look with a good chance I’ll be missing your point....no guarantees. ... > I'm wondering if you could clear something up for me. We use the word > "are" as in "there are only namas and rupas". But then we also use the > word "are" as in "engaged Buddhism and egocentricity are only concepts" > or "individuals are only fabrications of the mind". > > Is this also the case in Pali, ie is the same word used to denote the > ontological status of dhammas as well as concepts? .... S: Most Asian languages don’t insist on a verb in each sentence like English;-) Now when it comes to ultimate realities, we can refer to them directly as in ‘they are fourfold from the standpoint of ultimate reality: consciousness, mental factors, matter, and Nibbana’ [catudhaa paramatthato citta’m cetasika’m ruupa’m nibbaanam]. No verb used here in the Pali. Or we can refer to them by way of concepts. Naturally, in language like here, we are using concepts to refer to paramattha dhammas. To refresh: Under Concept of what makes known (naamapa~n~natti), from CMA ch V111: It is sixfold: ‘1) a (direct) concept of the real; 2) a (direct) concept of the unreal; 3) a concept of the unreal by means of the real; 4) a concept of the real by means of the unreal; 5) concept of the real by means of the real; and 6) a concept of the unreal by means of the unreal.’ [Saa 1) vijjamaanapa~n~natti, 2) avijjamaanapa~nnatti, 3) vijjamaanena avijjamaanapa~n~natti, 4) avijjamaanena vijjamaanapa~n~natti, 5) vijjamaanena vijjamaanapa~n~natti, 6) avijjamaanena avijjamaanapa~n~natti caa ti chabbidhaa hoti.] The verb ‘is’ [hoti] just used at the end for all of them. (my numbers inserted). Clear? (the blind leading the blind here when it comes to Pali explanations) ... > Seeing as *we* use the same word, wouldn't it be reasonable to infer > that the mode of being of namas and rupas is regarded as the same as the > mode of being of concepts? .... S: Only linguistically speaking. Would it be reasonable to infer that purple flying elephants and unpleasant feelings, say, have the ‘same mode of being’ in anything other than linguistic terms if we happen to use the verb ‘to be’ to refer to them? .... > Also, say one has totally osmosed the prescribed reductionist way of > thinking, and there is only understanding in terms of elements. There is > no more thinking in terms of self. ... S: Let’s refine that and say ‘there is no more WRONG thinking in terms of self. To prescribe that there should or is no more thinking of any kind about oneself or others would definitely be erroneous. .... >Will that, to your understanding, > change the reality of dukkha in the slightest? How is "just dukkha" an > improvement on "just my dukkha"? ... S: The reality of dukkha in its deepest sense as characteristic of all conditioned realities remains as it’s always been. Understanding realities which are anicca and dukkha as also not ‘my’ dukkha leads to detachment from whatever arises. And the goal of developed understanding is such detachment and thereby ‘overcoming’ of dukkha. While it’s ‘my dukkha’, there can never be insight into the elements and detachment from the erroneous view of self, the most weighty of the defilements. Anyway, as I said at the outset, I may well have missed the target here, but thanks for the signature line incorporated below -- maybe we could all use it;-) Metta, Sarah >Gotta snip a bit, to stay on Sarah's good side :-) ============================= 35153 From: nori Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 1:45am Subject: Vedana/Feelings and Sensations on the body reply (Sarah & Jon) Hi Sarah & Jon, First let me thank you for reading through my posts and carefully considering them in your thoughts and giving reply; I appreciate that. I will address one issue at a time in separate posts since many different (I think important to understand) issues were raised. S: "For example, you gave a quote from AN1X ii 4 on the Ven Samiddhi which had me a little perplexed until I looked it up: `What, Samiddhi is the basis of purposive thoughts (sankappavitakkaa)?' "Name and shape (nama and rupa), sir.' `What gives them their variety?' `The elements.' `What gives rise to them?' `contact.' `Wherein have they common ground?' `In feeling.' etc .... Feelings (vedana), whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral (as you rightly indicated) accompany all cittas regardless of whether namas or rupas are the object at anytime. They are always namas and quite distinct from the rupas experienced through the body-sense. You wrote: `And where are feelings felt? -..as sensations on the body'. I think it's important to see that this is not correct." S: "…rupas experienced through the body sense or through eyes, ears and so on, (are) distinct from feelings and all other namas such as seeing, hearing and thinking." --- Before getting into anything, I just wanted to mention that everything I post (i.e. suggestions, topics, answers) is from the position of one who is uncertain and unrealized. Maybe then being uncertain, it is better not to post anything or answer any questions, but then again, I do it, even with uncertain views in order to get replies and comments so in order to learn. I just wanted to mention that. … back to the topic… From the first excerpt above you state: "They (feelings-vedana) are always namas and quite distinct from the rupas experienced through the body sense." This is where I am a bit confused; And this is where I think Goenka and his camp are also a bit confused. I picked up the following idea (which I relayed as part of a reply in a previous post) from the Goenka school of thought - `And where are feelings felt? -..as sensations on the body'. In the entire Maha Satipatthana Sutta translation and other literature made by the Vipassana Research Institute (Goenka's organization), `Vedana' (`feelings') is directly translated into `Sensations' (viz. sensations on the body). Thus my version of ANIX-ii-4, which had the word `Sensations' in place of `Vedana'; this was due to copying it off a VRI website. Now, I think I understand what you are saying, but here is the confusion: I agree that the sensations "…experienced through the body sense or through eyes, ears and so on", are not vedana/feelings (pleasant, unpleasant, neither-), that they are only sensations. Now to be specific, I mean, the isolated sensations in-and-of-themselves (i.e. light, pressure, heat/cold, smell, touch). In this sense I agree there is a distinction between bodily sensation and feeling. However, once there is `recognition' of form by the sense- conciousness', then is it not feeling? Aren't certain forms inherently pleasant or not- or neither? I will recall this sutta: Majjhima Nikaya 66 Latukikopama Sutta The Quail Simile http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are the five strings of sensuality." And now say due to these sensations there is craving and due to that, sorrow, lamentation. As a result of this sorrow and lamenting due to craving, lets say, the person feels `all choked up' like he has something in his throat, or his stomach or other parts of the body tenses or tightens, or he cries and tears, or feels something in his chest, or his breathing motion changes, chemicals are released or become deficient in the brain and this is felt as sensations on the body (pleasant or not- pleasant or neither). Now from this above example there is no question - The vedana/feelings are manifested on the body, and felt on the body as 'rupas experienced through the body sense'. From the first excerpt above you state: "They (feelings-vedana) are always namas and quite distinct from the rupas experienced through the body sense." Is not Vedana (which is pleasant or not-pleasant or neither) experienced on the body as 'rupas experienced through the body sense'? If not then where is it experienced? peace, nori 35154 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:22am Subject: Re: Hello Ben, I wrote: ----------- > In this conditioned world there are only dhammas - citta, cetasikas > and rupas. They arise to create a moment of consciousness and then > fall away forever. All conditioned dhammas are impermanent and > unsatisfactory, and all dhammas (including the unconditioned > Nibbana) are not self. ------------- to which you replied: ------------------------ > I am so very stupid and not at all knowledgable of your dhamma philosophy (*note the feigned ignorance). Does anybody know what a concept is? > ------------------------ Are you saying that dhammas are only concepts? If so, you would be mistaken. Words and names are concepts but the words `citta' `cetasika' `rupa' `nibbana' and, collectively, `dhammas,' are concepts that refer to realities. ---------------------- B: > Who can tell me? Bet you can't do it without giving me two more. Or better yet, try taking a concept away from me without giving me another. Lets say....the concept of I. Are you up to it? ---------------------- `I' is a concept, but there is no need to take it away from anyone. If, when we use the concept `I' we mean a being that persists from one moment to the next, then that is a concept that refers to another concept. If we use the concept `I' in the same way the Buddha used it (i.e., to refer to the citta, cetasikas and rupas of the five khandhas) then that is a concept that refers to a reality. ------------------------ B: > Provided we understand that it as a mere word to Well you've made it to the second paragraph. Very good. Hmmm, or should I say very indifferent so you don't get attached to your 'progress.' ------------------------ :-) Thanks for trying, but I'm still attached. ------------------------ B: > Lets stop to think about it. Tell me when you've understood by describing the color red to my friend Ray over there [1]. ------------------------ Sorry, I've lost track; stop to think about what? In the meantime, I would tell Ray (if only he were still with us) to think of audible object as being the rupa that is contacted at the ear. Now, in the same way, visible object can be understood as the rupa that is contacted at another sense door (that the rest of us have), the eye. -------------------------------- B: > Back away from the squiggly black lines. They are nothing without the whiteness that defines them. Rupa is nothing without the citta that defines it [2]. > --------------------------------- Agreed, in the absence of citta, rupa is beyond the realm of experience. (But that does not make it nothing.) ------------------------- B: Cetasika is open to interpretation, and because of this, it defines itself. Heheh. Meaning is a paradox...or perhaps just one, but who's counting anyway. ------------------------- As an absolute reality, cetasika is not open to interpretation. Regardless of the time of its arising (past, present or future) and regardless of whether or not it is seen with right understanding, a cetasika (lobha, for example) will have the same function, characteristic, manifestation and proximate cause. ----------------- B: > Oh yeah, those folks in the pro-meditation camp...."in one, out one...in two, out two..." What were you doing right before you came across the question mark at the end of this sentence? ...[3]? ----------------- There were countless moments of consciousness: some of them experienced the reality, visible object, some experienced the reality, audible object . . . some experienced the concept of `sentence,' some experienced the concept of `question mark.' I admit I couldn't pin any single moment down, but nor could you with your breath-counting. ----------------- B: > Concentrate! ---------------- Understand the difference between concept and reality! ---------------- B: > Look there it is! Suffering. Look, there is its cause! ...Well? Sorry, I was too busy playing with the idea of freedom to see that there is none. Oh well. At least we have each other. --------------- There is no self who can catch and identify dhammas. Only other dhammas can do that and they are not self. Yes, while the cetasika, panna (right understanding) is still too weak, we can at least discuss the dhammas taught by the Buddha. Little by little, the right cetasikas are conditioned to arise. ---------------- B: > Metta, (about as meaningful an ending as "how are you doing?" is a rhetorical question) Ben ---------------- Kind regards, (the same thing but in English) Ken H :-) 35155 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation Hi Andrew L, Thanks for sharing more about your studies, practice and difficulties with us. I look forward to more of your comments and replies to posts. --- suicidal_one2004 wrote: > Eh fake smiles aren't so hot ;) .... S: Surely it always comes back to one’s intention. If we’re considering those around us and intending to save them from unnecessary worry or concern, for example, then it’s worthwhile, don’t you think?. ... > The way things are set up it's more like a state-run slavery program > than a treatment facility. I can get healthy without it, granted > sometimes it helps, but thanks for your sympathies.. -o_o- ... S: I sympathise. A long time ago I worked in a psychiatric day centre in London as a counsellor. Sometimes I used to feel I should be a patient -o_o- Whatever misguided views there are around you, perhaps it helps to appreciate that people are trying to help and one does need to communicate and get on with others in whatever circles one lives. Respectfully, I don’t think that appreciation and development of ascetic practices comes about by any kind of forced or determined focussing or reciting. In an earlier post -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19046 I wrote about Meghiya, the Buddha’s attendant. Even though he became a bhikkhu in good faith, assisted the Buddha and went to a secluded grove to ‘make an effort’, he was ovrwhelmed by ‘thoughts concerned with sense-desires, ill-will and cruelty’. Few of us really know what is suitable at any moment or what tendencies from the past may arise. He returned to the Buddha who said: “When liberation of heart is not fully mature , Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity.” He then proceeds to elaborate on these five conditions conducive to the development of wisdom. ***** These five in brief are: 1. The good friend 2. Morality. “..............seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom.....’ 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states 4. the 4 Right Efforts 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. As I wrote i n the earlier post, wise friendship and support is considered most important. Indeed only a sakadagami (2nd stage of enlightenmentt) about to become an anagami (3rd stage of enlightenment) commonly renounces all sense objects. Even a sotapanna (1st stage of insight) is likely to be overwhelmed with unwholesome thoughts. When right understanding develops it performs its function naturally, rather than us trying hard in an unnatural way to follow a certain practice. At any moment of wholesomeness -- yes even smiling to ease others’ worry -- there is renunciation. When we’re concerned about ourselves, about our practice or space or not being bothered, there’s no renunciation. So ‘doing good’ or developing wise attention can be at any moment -- no need to have special thoughts, but there are always opportunities for metta, for consideration, for awareness of what is conditioned (even if it’s aversion), for momentary renunciation. If you have time, you may also like to read the other posts under ‘Seclusion’ in Useful Posts. I sincerely hope they may be of some benefit and I'd be glad of any feedback: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I read your comments on the ‘tenfold skill of paying attention’ but I think again we need to be careful about following so-called instructions without sufficient understanding of the present states of mind involved. You mentioned that you were a ‘somewhat timid person’ with hopefully ‘the ability to contemplate down to the bones and marrow’. I’m sure this is true, Andrew, but I think one needs to question and consider whether these suttas you refer to are intended as recipe instructions to be followed by us all or descriptions of particular states of mind of those with highly developed wisdom, able to easily live in a secluded place with highly developed samatha. As I indicated above, even bhikkhus without any ties, who listened to the Buddha himself were not necessarily encouraged to live in the forest. The Buddha stressed that the highest meaning of ‘seclusion’ is learning to live alone with the visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes and mental objects whatever our lifestyle, however busy or quiet. (see the posts on the Meghiya sutta and Thera sutta in those above). The Buddha taught satipatthana to those with very different ways of life and inclination. No rule for all. In conclusion, I encourage you to go into the day treatment program for which you’re enrolled tomorrow and ‘practise religion’, without needing to sit in a corner, but by participating and testing out whether it’s really possible to ‘live alone’ with mindfulness of seeing, hearing and so on whilst in talk therapy or whilst smiling (no need to be fake;-)). Ok, a sense of humour probably helps. Remember, we’re beginners on the path. We need sleep and rest. With growing metta and consideration for those around and learning to live alone, even amongst the crowds, Mara will have less of a hold. I was unable to lie down and rest for a couple of weeks recently due to sickness and I assure you it’s not conducive to anything other than mental and physical exhaustion and the need for lots of fake smiles:-). Let us know how it goes and I appreciate your contribution and support here, Andrew. I’m sure that with the good friendship many here can offer you, you’ll be through with your present difficulties in good time....hang in there and remember it’s a kindness to let others help (or have the illusion they’re helping);o). Finally, I tried looking of your references, but was more interested in this one on the same page as AN iii435: “No desire to Listen’ “ ‘Monks, cumbered by these six conditions, he cannot become one to enter the right way... He has no desire to listen, incline the ear, apply a heart of understanding, when the Dhamma-discipline declared by the Tathagata is taught; he grasps the profitless, rejects the profitable and possesses not himself in harmony and patience. Monks cumbered by these six.....’ BUT THE CONVERSE HOLDS.....” May we all ‘listen’, ‘incline the ear’ and ‘apply a heart of understanding’... Metta, Sarah ===== 35156 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 3:21am Subject: Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) Dear Group, Thinking over what it takes to break the first Precept (against killing) - Just to re-cap ... "Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) 1. The being must be alive. 2. There must be the knowledge that it is a live being. 3. There must be an intention to cause death. 4. An act must be done to cause death. 5. There must be death, as the result of the said act. If all the said five conditions are fulfilled, the first precept is violated. " Pondering on point 1. 'The being must be alive'. Is a being considered to be alive if it is not able to live independently, but lives via the biological processes of another? Pondering on point 2. 'There must be the knowledge that it is a live being'. Who must have the knowledge? The being? or the other? If a 'being' is not self-aware - is it a being? (Thinking of sensitive plants). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 35157 From: nori Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 3:32am Subject: Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Sarah and Dhamma Friends, I was thinking about the question I asked you in the last post I made to you in reply regarding - Vedana/Feeling as nama being different from bodily sensations of Rupa/matter. It brought to mind something I saw once on TV. It was the fact that many people in this world who have had their limbs amputated still experienced sensations in their non-present phantom limbs. I looked up some articles on the internet and found these: http://www.damaris.org/dcscs/readingroom/2000/phantoms.htm http://hubel.sfasu.edu/courseinfo/SL98/phantom4.html "For some patients the limb is all but real apart from the fact that it is invisible - they can reach out to grab things, experience sensations, some even experience paralysis in the limb! One very common complaint is the sensation of fist clenching, with the fingers jabbing into the palm, yet the patient being unable to do anything about it." "Nine years after the accident Steen continues to have pain in the missing arm." "Many scientists have studied amputees to determine the cause of this mysterious pain. Sussman (1995) concluded that the trouble starts in a part of the brain known as the sensory cortex. The sensory cortex carries a rough map of the body, called a homunculus or"little man." Each body part in the homunculus is wired to its corresponding portion of the real anatomy." "Ramachandran's hypothesis is that there is a remapping of the body image in the brain. Areas of the brain that corresponded with a particular limb, say an arm, no longer have anything there to correspond with if the arm is removed. Parts of the brain may take over this latent area, and 'fool' the brain into thinking the limb still exists. One patient could feel his phantom hand and arm being 'touched' when his face was touched so it seems there is some truth in this." --- This is great information to ponder. I guess all bodily sensation (of rupa/matter) exists ultimately in the mind; Likewise is the case for Vedana (feeling) pleasant, unpleasant, neither-. There is no such thing as a direct 'objective' sensation or observation. All sensations are interpretations of the mind. They must pass through sense organs, nerves pathways, sensory cortex. Knowing this, how can we ever see things - as they truly are ? metta, nori 35158 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 3:43am Subject: Pariyatti/pattipatti Dear Group, A friend asked: "I don't know that I've ever known the moment, but it's certainly clear in retrospect. But is this kind of retrospection of some value, or just 'darting among unrealities'?" --- R: Thinking about it in retrospect is not understanding at the level of satipatthana but, if it is right thinking, it is kusala and beneficial. Everyone has to see for themself how much this is useful. If it is done with panna it is very good but if we cling to this type of reflection again we are missing the main point. So many ways to think about it even in retrospection: are we considering that dosa was simply a parammattha dhamma; are we remembering that there is no self who has dosa; is there consideration that each moment arises to pass away instantly? This type of reflection is, if done with panna, a type of samattha ie dhammanusati- recollection of Dhamma. And it can support direct awareness. Even while we are thinking in this way, another level of panna can come in and directly understand some aspect of the thinking process - and that is satipatthana. If there is retrospection then that is what is happening now- and it is good to know whether it is done with kusala or akusala. At times we may reflect often about Dhamma but have very little direct awareness. At other times possibly little thinking but still direct awareness comes. Most of the time both are scarce. When we think about Dhamma or study Dhamma it can be and even should be (but of course no rule, not always) a condition for some direct study, at some level, (maybe simply at the level of what I call "consideration in the present") of the present moment. It is worrying that some who study even Abhidhamma do not connect it with satipatthana. But Abhidhamma is purely what is real - how can we separate this subject from the direct study of dhammas? Pariyatti should be intimately connected to pattipatti. Robertk 35159 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 4:39am Subject: RE: [Norton AntiSpam] RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Mike and Howard and everyone, It's pleasing to see that I am getting through your spam filters :-) Thank you for your replies. I can understand better where you are coming from. Kind Regards Herman > But > I am stuck on one little word; that word being "aim", as in "the aim of > the study". In terms of anatta, what is aim? I'm speaking pretty conventionally, but still what I have in mind is intent, I guess--in the sense of 'intention' and at least closely related to the cetasika cetanaa which is also kamma if I'm not mistaken--so very important with regard both to rebirth and to liberation. In the course of everyday experience, intention is (or seems) always very 'mixed', many different roots and so on succeeding each other so rapidly as to seem to blend together. Whether in the conventional or 'ultimate' sense, though, still ultimately anatta, I think. mike 35160 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > --- suicidal_one2004 wrote: > > Eh fake smiles aren't so hot ;) > .... > S: Surely it always comes back to one's intention. If we're considering > those around us and intending to save them from unnecessary worry or > concern, for example, then it's worthwhile, don't you think?. No, in my experience a fake smile is an unnecessary act thats not consistent with reality. Why smile when circumstances are unfortunate? Just continue on with a straight face. It seems inharmonious to smile even to save someone from discouragement or the like, even destructive to communication. Even applying the principle behind Right Speech to bodily acts, if it's untrue and beneficial, don't do it. Sorry, I can't see a fake smile being right on any scenario. If it's an expression of a kindly mind, however, I guess it should be allowable, even an an ascetic practise. > > The way things are set up it's more like a state-run slavery program > > than a treatment facility. I can get healthy without it, granted > > sometimes it helps, but thanks for your sympathies.. -o_o- > ... > S: I sympathise. A long time ago I worked in a psychiatric day centre in > London as a counsellor. Sometimes I used to feel I should be a patient > -o_o- The most horrid thing is all the deception involved, to get people into the system, to keep them in the system at all costs. Few things give me consolation besides some Machine Head lyrics which I'll save posting here, and a 'karma' web game I played which had a caption saying the most fiery hells were saved for those who prevented others from acheiving liberation through the telling of deliberate lies. Not that we should wish ill will towards even those who harm us, but it is the untrained mind's natural tendency. > > Whatever misguided views there are around you, perhaps it helps to > appreciate that people are trying to help and one does need to communicate > and get on with others in whatever circles one lives. Respectfully, I > don't think that appreciation and development of ascetic practices comes > about by any kind of forced or determined focussing or reciting. > Some people are trying to help even though they are misguided, I'll agree. Communication then probably becomes important, the image that comes to mind is convicted criminals in jail doing some emotional bonding. It's an artifical setting that shouldn't even *be* but one can still try to hold what one can of one's own opinion and ground without giving it completely and try to benefit others. This is like the meditation groups I taught to other patients while in the psych ward in the seclusion room. Maybe that's an improper example. But again, it's still wrong, because one is being conditioned away from one's own self and attitudes and being 'assimilated'. And respectfully, the reciting is not designed to foster an open communication forum, but is the start of my own makeshift path to purity in the face of an entity that is trying to shift my life in an unnatural and forced direction. > In an earlier post -- > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19046 > I wrote about Meghiya, the Buddha's attendant. Even though he became a > bhikkhu in good faith, assisted the Buddha and went to a secluded grove to > `make an effort', he was ovrwhelmed by `thoughts concerned with > sense-desires, ill-will and cruelty'. Few of us really know what is > suitable at any moment or what tendencies from the past may arise. < > As I wrote i n the earlier post, wise friendship and support is considered > most important. It is fortunate for me that I am still able to post to dhammastudygroup, then. > Indeed only a sakadagami (2nd stage of enlightenmentt) > about to become an anagami (3rd stage of enlightenment) commonly renounces > all sense objects. Even a sotapanna (1st stage of insight) is likely to be > overwhelmed with unwholesome thoughts. When right understanding develops > it performs its function naturally, rather than us trying hard in an > unnatural way to follow a certain practice. At any moment of wholesomeness > -- yes even smiling to ease others' worry -- there is renunciation. When > we're concerned about ourselves, about our practice or space or not being > bothered, there's no renunciation. Sure there is. Being a spiritual practitioner walking around campus developing mindfulness and doing oral recitation of body parts is more renunciant than sitting in the counces in the lounge eating bagels or going to all one's groups, some need for adopting to one's circumstances and allowing communication aside. But I'd like to hear more about subtle methods of renunciation you envision. Getting out of bed early, knowing moderation in food, and withstanding unfavorable climactic conditions surely aren't renuncation's only grounds. > So `doing good' or developing wise > attention can be at any moment -- no need to have special thoughts, but > there are always opportunities for metta, for consideration, for awareness > of what is conditioned (even if it's aversion), for momentary > renunciation. Metta is difficult for me. How can we develop spontaneous metta? Your note of awareness of what is conditioned really struck a cord with me. I've had some difficulty even walking the streets and having my awareness shift back and forth between a that of a lone renunciant practitioner and that of one conditioned by society, thinking within the limits of society. I gather the reason is because I practise traditional mindfulness techniques on my own, and allow myself to enter an environment specifically designed to condition one towards certain behaviors and mind-states by society. It's unnerving, I've even tried praying to reconcile the two sides. I am probably doing myself a great disservice by not fully taking a stand on my own. > > If you have time, you may also like to read the other posts under > `Seclusion' in Useful Posts. I sincerely hope they may be of some benefit > and I'd be glad of any feedback: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > I read your comments on the `tenfold skill of paying attention' but I > think again we need to be careful about following so-called instructions > without sufficient understanding of the present states of mind involved. > You mentioned that you were a `somewhat timid person' with hopefully `the > ability to contemplate down to the bones and marrow'. I'm sure this is > true, Andrew, but I think one needs to question and consider whether these > suttas you refer to are intended as recipe instructions to be followed by > us all or descriptions of particular states of mind of those with highly > developed wisdom, able to easily live in a secluded place with highly > developed samatha. I'll give those useful posts a look in a moment, but the meditation manual I'm reading is highly practical. It describes shamatha in a few paragraphs and then the phase of acheiving the breath nimitta, which can be obtained by anyone at all (I certainly have, and I'm not the most determined or advanced practitioner out there by any means), and says we can then go on to the insight knowledges or jhanas. So when it describes the meditation on the four elements of the body as vipassana meditation with the Dhatuvibhanga, Rahulovada, and Mahahatttipadopama Suttas, or the reflection on the repulsivenses of the body meditation with the words "Gone to the foot of a tree, to a secluded place, sits cross-legged," I can take it to mean these are the literal descriptions for one who wants to develop wisdom and understanding. Just as in the moralities section, as we shouldn't take it to mean we are beginners in morality, not saints, so we shouldn't stray too far and portend to understand or be capable of undertaking such instructions, here there are literal instructions for those wanting to acheive the highest happiness. They are described right there, skills to be learned, that are necessary for attainments through different methods of meditation, inviting all to attend. Now, having read some of these posts, the common themes I gather are these: - "Whoso is addicted to society and worldly bustle, he will not partake of the happiness of renunciation, detachment, peace and enlightenment," no explanation necessary, and - that seclusion is also a mental state of detachment and lack of craving. I gather that these instructions were indeed intended for 'bhikkus,' not only ordained monks but those who could live a lifestyle similar to one. IMO, a modern-day meditator with the virtue of renunciation, living by himself, fits this type of personality well; especially considering one of the benefits OF the meditation is overcoming whatsoever delight in sensual pleasures might be left (ie that very craving). So as we need to have some renunciation cultivated already the question then becomes just how much renunciation? Can one who 'dwells with craving' be considered a renunciant? Surely if we had no craving we wouldn't have to be practising these meditations anymore, but some craving needs to be eradicated. How do we define renunciation, then, is it in terms of lossage of clining, craving, and attachment, or is it in the forsaking of participation in worldly affairs or pursuits? If it's the latter, then it's open to more of us than you might think. If it's the former, well: It just so happens, though, I have in my notes on the Vissudhimagga, that as to the different types, it is suggested for dull-witted craving man (the type that it so happens I have decided most fits myself; my intellect is keen but my understanding is slow) that the very contemplation of the gross physical body is the path to purity ! (Oh please don't ask me to cite, I looked and just couldn't find! ;) Nonetheless, I'm confident this is doable. I think as I prepare myself for the meditation as the day count towards it weans, that I will give myself the gift of extra seclusion from society, keeping to myself even more than usual (uh oh :P). My point will be held up somewhat more by this not insubstantial bit from AN.VII.30 "'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, when living in seclusion, is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples. With his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, he converses with them only as much is necessary for them to take their leave. 'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said." Now do I relish renunciation, or what? > As I indicated above, even bhikkhus without any ties, > who listened to the Buddha himself were not necessarily encouraged to live > in the forest. The Buddha stressed that the highest meaning of `seclusion' > is learning to live alone with the visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes > and mental objects whatever our lifestyle, however busy or quiet. (see the > posts on the Meghiya sutta and Thera sutta in those above). The Buddha > taught satipatthana to those with very different ways of life and > inclination. No rule for all. Right, but as I've read, he taught the Mahasatipatthana Sutta to the people of Kurus, who had a very healthy society and very happy and favorable living conditions; the author of The Four Foundations of Mindfulness, Ven. U. Silananda, compares it to the situation we have in American; good food, climactic control, fair degree of happiness of the lower types, all in all a culture which favors someone being able to easily pick up these instructions and carry them out. Futher, he has said 'gone to a forest or a secluded place,' for this meditation, not the same as prescribing the meditation for 'one living in seclusion,' or one undertaking the forest dweller's asceticism. We can draw parallels yes but we shouldn't confuse the two. I will go out on a limb and say that one living with some degree of renunciation of indulging sense desires and worldly ways already, who keeps to himself, will, when going to a secluded place, such as the foot of a tree in the woods, fulfill the necessary conditions described in the paragraph, "Here, now, bhikkus, a bhikku, having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, to a secluded place, sits down cross-legged, keeps his upper body erect, and directs his mindfulness to the object of meditation. > > In conclusion, I encourage you to go into the day treatment program for > which you're enrolled tomorrow and `practise religion', without needing to > sit in a corner, but by participating and testing out whether it's really > possible to `live alone' with mindfulness of seeing, hearing and so on > whilst in talk therapy or whilst smiling (no need to be fake;-)). Ok, a > sense of humour probably helps. I usually literally start losing my mind in those groups, I don't know what it's from, unless there's some conversation I can keep up with, and even then I find myself defiled with idle chatter which is in a way self-destructive towards mysefl and my ends; it seems there's no way I can win. But today I think I'll bring my copy of the Vissudhimagga, my notebook, discman, notebook and new copy of "Machine Head - Burn My Eyes" and together with some on & off oral recitation practise away. :-/ > > Remember, we're beginners on the path. We need sleep and rest. With > growing metta and consideration for those around and learning to live > alone, even amongst the crowds, Mara will have less of a hold. I was > unable to lie down and rest for a couple of weeks recently due to sickness > and I assure you it's not conducive to anything other than mental and > physical exhaustion and the need for lots of fake smiles:-). Man the one day after the day not long ago I had undertaken the 'sitter's practise' (V. p59) as one who refuses to lie down, even the informal meditation I had just by sitting in various places was enough to keep me rested after not 7 hours sleep which is rare enough for me. It's true that if you meditate enough you'll need less sleep. I think I may take up the sitter's practise again today and see how it goes. > > Let us know how it goes and I appreciate your contribution and support > here, Andrew. I'm sure that with the good friendship many here can offer > you, you'll be through with your present difficulties in good time....hang > in there and remember it's a kindness to let others help (or have the > illusion they're helping);o). > I'm enjoying the discussion already, Sarah. > Finally, I tried looking of your references, but was more interested in > this one on the same page as AN iii435: > > "No desire to Listen' > > " `Monks, cumbered by these six conditions, he cannot become one to enter > the right way... > He has no desire to listen, incline the ear, apply a heart of > understanding, when the Dhamma-discipline declared by the Tathagata is > taught; he grasps the profitless, rejects the profitable and possesses not > himself in harmony and patience. > > Monks cumbered by these six.....' > > BUT THE CONVERSE HOLDS....." > > May we all `listen', `incline the ear' and `apply a heart of > understanding'... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== May we all put forth our best efforts in the same -o_o- peace, andrew levin 35161 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 5:06am Subject: Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Dearest Friends, Do anyone know any website where I can find some basic understanding concepts on Abhidhamma? There are some doubts which I would love to solve about understanding Abhidhamma: What would be action and reaction proccess called in the abhidhamma thought? Is it kamma just the pali name for action?What would be the pali name for reaction? Anyway, all I need is something like "Abhidhamma for Dummies" ! I hope you can help me with it... Kindest Regards, Gabriel Laera ICQ:56458224 MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. 35162 From: Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedana/Feelings and Sensations on the body reply (Sarah & Jon) Hi, Nori (and Sarah & Jon) - In a message dated 8/5/04 5:36:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > From the first excerpt above you state: "They (feelings-vedana) are > always namas and quite distinct from the rupas experienced through > the body sense." > > > This is where I am a bit confused; And this is where I think Goenka > and his camp are also a bit confused. > > I picked up the following idea (which I relayed as part of a reply in > a previous post) from the Goenka school of thought - `And where are > feelings felt? -..as sensations on the body'. > > In the entire Maha Satipatthana Sutta translation and other > literature made by the Vipassana Research Institute (Goenka's > organization), `Vedana' (`feelings') is directly translated > into `Sensations' (viz. sensations on the body). Thus my version of > ANIX-ii-4, which had the word `Sensations' in place of `Vedana'; this > was due to copying it off a VRI website. > > Now, I think I understand what you are saying, but here is the > confusion: > > I agree that the sensations "…experienced through the body sense or > through eyes, ears and so on", are not vedana/feelings (pleasant, > unpleasant, neither-), that they are only sensations. Now to be > specific, I mean, the isolated sensations in-and-of-themselves (i.e. > light, pressure, heat/cold, smell, touch). > > In this sense I agree there is a distinction between bodily sensation > and feeling. > > However, once there is `recognition' of form by the sense- > conciousness', then is it not feeling? Aren't certain forms > inherently pleasant or not- or neither? > > I will recall this sutta: > > Majjhima Nikaya 66 > Latukikopama Sutta > The Quail Simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html > > "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which > five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, > endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the > ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the > tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, > pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are > the five strings of sensuality." > > > And now say due to these sensations there is craving and due to that, > sorrow, lamentation. > > As a result of this sorrow and lamenting due to craving, lets say, > the person feels `all choked up' like he has something in his throat, > or his stomach or other parts of the body tenses or tightens, or he > cries and tears, or feels something in his chest, or his breathing > motion changes, chemicals are released or become deficient in the > brain and this is felt as sensations on the body (pleasant or not- > pleasant or neither). > > Now from this above example there is no question - The > vedana/feelings are manifested on the body, and felt on the body > as 'rupas experienced through the body sense'. > > From the first excerpt above you state: "They (feelings-vedana) are > always namas and quite distinct from the rupas experienced through > the body sense." > > Is not Vedana (which is pleasant or not-pleasant or neither) > experienced on the body as 'rupas experienced through the body sense'? > > If not then where is it experienced? ======================= I agree that "Goenka & company" erroneously conflate vedana and rupa. Vedana are not bodily sensations, but are varieties and degrees of the mental experiences of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. They are elementary affective "flavors." However, there does seem to me to be a very close relationship between bodily sensations and vedana. It seems to me that whenever I think, for example, of something pleasant or unpleasant, or remember such, or have a moment of fear or anger or desire, there is an immediate, often subtle, bodily sensation produced, and that it is that sensation that is directly tasted as pleasant or unpleasant, but the mind immediately associates that vedana with the namic dhamma that led to the sensation rather than with the sensation itself. (For example, we recall some delicious food, and we experience pleasantness, but what actually happens is that the memory elicits a Pavlovian bodily response, and it is that produced sensation that is *directly* pleasant, with the memory only indirectly so, by back reference.) So, I have a personal theory (or, better, conjecture), not substantiated by anything I've read in the suttas or in Abhidhammic writings, and therefore questionable, that vedana is always *mediated* by bodily sensation. This is a theory that would explain the propensity of many to confuse feeling with sensation, though, of course, it's not the only possible way to explain the confusion, and my pet theory may well be in error. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35163 From: Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/5/04 6:35:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > I guess all bodily sensation (of rupa/matter) exists ultimately in > the mind; Likewise is the case for Vedana (feeling) pleasant, > unpleasant, neither-. > > There is no such thing as a direct 'objective' sensation or > observation. > > All sensations are interpretations of the mind. > > They must pass through sense organs, nerves pathways, sensory cortex. > > Knowing this, how can we ever see things - as they truly are ? > > =========================== As I see it, "physical body" and "brain" and so on, are concepts, mental constructs (like the Buddha's and Nagasena's chariot), that, in a very complex way, codify amazing patterned complexes of interrelated "actualities". But bodily sensations (and visual, auditory, olfactory, and gustatory events as well), as they are, constitute a certain variety of direct experiential content, namely rupa, whereas thoughts, feelings, inclinations, etc, as they are, constitute a different variety of direct experiential content, namely nama. The rupas and namas, while fleeting events, conditioned and not self-dependent, are, as opposed to concepts, not conceptual constructs, but are the raw materials used (by sa~n~na and sankhara) for concept building. But all of these - concepts as well as namic and rupic actualities - are experiential in nature. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35164 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 5:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Present moment and control Hi Andrew, Good to hear from you again. Andrew: For worldlings, does "belief in self" form the basis of ALL perception and action? Herman: I could be wrong, but I thought this was a matter of definition. One who perceives a self/acts as a self is a worldling. Worldlings, sotapannas, sakadagamins, anagamins and arahants are not objects of discovery, they are objects of definition. One who does not act from a self-perspective is classified as something else, given some other qualifications. Andrew: Is it *necessarily so* that a conscious attempt to understand the theory of anatta will "suppress" realisation of the pervasiveness of "belief in self"? Herman, I'm not sure of the answers to these questions but I have a feeling that your premises here are not true across the board. Herman: I do not know how one would go about establishing an irrefutable causal connection between intellectual/egoic grasping at a doctrine and a continued failure to realise that doctrine? (On the same basis, I do not know how people who have meditated can declare it as having been fruitless) It would make sense to me that any ego activities that would undermine the ego itself could never be permitted by the ego. Hence reaction formation in a thousand guises to what seem pretty consistent instructions to all manner of folk. Also, I have not seen any instructions in the texts to worldlings to contemplate anatta. Perhaps you or others have, and I would be very happy to take that on board. BTW: Any bits I've snipped, I agree with. I just snipped something :-) [snip]> I am less interested in what the no-controllers say, than in what they do :-). What they do is a far better indicator of where they stand with regards to the present moment :-) And while they may claim a position of no-control, I assume that to be an entirely theoretical position. Andrew: How can we say about another person that their position is entirely theoretical? How can we know that? We can't. Herman: You're quite right. I stand corrected :-) Andrew: And IF we are talking about a view actually taught by a Buddha, we are verbalising a lack of saddha. This is what happens to someone who listens to and has faith in the Buddha's words (according to the Buddha in Tevijja Sutta D.I,13) 'A householder (gahapati), or one of his children, or a man of inferior birth in any class, listens to that truth [27]. On hearing the truth he has faith in the Tathágata, and when he has acquired that faith he thus considers with himself: "Full of hindrances is household life, a path defiled by passion : free as the air is the life of him who has renounced all worldly things. How difficult it is for the man who dwells at home to live the higher life in all its fullness, in all its purity, in all its bright perfection! Let me then cut off my hair and beard, let me clothe myself in the orange-colored robes, and let me go forth from a household life into the homeless state. 'Then before long, forsaking his portion of wealth, be it great or be it small; forsaking his circle of relatives, be they many or be they few, he cuts off his hair and beard, he clothes himself in the orange -- colored robes. and he goes forth from the household life into the homeless state. It seems we all suffer a bit from reaction formation or lack of saddha or something :-) > An interesting ethical aside. If you were a learned judge (perhaps you are one, in which case, sorry :-)), would you enforce personal > accountability and responsibility in your courtroom, or would you sit cross-legged and encourage people to do whatever they are inclined to do ? Andrew: No, I'm not a judge. Of course, law and ethics are not necessarily the same - as people like Christmas Humphreys found out. With your question, do you want a conventional answer or an ultimate one? I get the impression, Herman, that you are dissatisfied with the presence of 2 sacca (truths). Yes, the Buddha did give all manner of conventional advice (take 2 steps west and 4 steps north) but it is always with a last proviso of "of course, conventional things are not really as they seem" (to get the real treasure, you have to dig down to another level). Herman : I am dissatisfied with lip service, and see through reaction formation (not speaking of anyone in particular, excepting myself). To get the real treasure, according to the Buddha, you renounce the things that go to make the "I", that is all those objects and processes that are taken as me or mine all day long. You renounce appropriation. 23 hours and 59 minutes of appropriation mixed with a sprinkling of a few seconds here and there of renunciation do not a sotapanna make. Andrew: Things aren't as they seem! Herman: If my policy of snipping things I agreed with was consistently applied, the above line wouldn't be there :-) > I think the Dhamma is about suffering and the end of suffering. Do you > think that people who are not aware of their suffering would want to > find out about it? The dhamma becomes a treasure only when suffering is > realized. You cannot tell the blissfully ignorant that they are > suffering. But people who know they are suffering will follow the > instructions of the doctor till they get relief. Andrew: Why can't you tell the blissfully ignorant that they are suffering? Doctors do it every day. The Buddha did it too. Herman: I meant with any chance of getting through the first layer of earwax :-) Thanks for the post. I find it very helpful. Herman Gotta go. Best wishes Andrew 35165 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 6:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation --- Dear Andrew, I just read this post to Sarah and am rather impressed with your reflections and how you are striving to understand- don't have anything to add at the moment but wanted to let you know. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suicidal_one2004" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > --- suicidal_one2004 wrote: > > > Eh fake smiles aren't so hot ;) > > .... > > S: Surely it always comes back to one's intention. If we're > considering > . This is like > the meditation groups I taught to other patients while in the psych > ward in the seclusion room. Maybe that's an improper example. But > again, it's still wrong, because one is being conditioned away from > one's own self and attitudes and being 'assimilated'. And > respectfully, the reciting is not designed to foster an open > communication forum, but is the start of my own makeshift path to > purity in the face of an entity that is trying to shift my life in an > unnatural and forced direction. > . Getting out > of bed early, knowing moderation in food, and withstanding unfavorable > climactic conditions surely aren't renuncation's only grounds. > > > So `doing good' or developing wise > > attention can be at any moment -- no need to have special thoughts, > but > > there are always opportunities for metta, for consideration, for > awareness > > of what is conditioned (even if it's aversion), for momentary > > renunciation. > > Metta is difficult for me. How can we develop spontaneous metta? > > Your note of awareness of what is conditioned really struck a cord > with me. I've had some difficulty even walking the streets and having > my awareness shift back and forth between a that of a lone renunciant > practitioner and that of one conditioned by society, thinking within > the limits of society. Robertk 35166 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > ============================= > Wow, what a really admirable post this is, Robert. I bow to you! Thank > you! > I personally think that it is times at which we see areas in which we > operate somewhat less than optimally, times of understanding which, if one is > fortunate, occur to each of us, that are the most useful for us. I find that I > make the least "progress" whenever I think everything is "just great" with > me! ;-)) > I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to read your always learned > and insightful posts, Robert. I have gained much, and continue to do so, from > interacting with you. As I see it, there is an area of commonality between the > Zen "wu wei" teachings and the no-control/impersonality/mere- conditions > emphasis of Khun Sujin and her admirers that I find interesting and appealing and > useful, and I see you as standing right at the center-point of that area. >________ Dear Howard Thanks for this very kind letter Howard. You know it is interesting about Zen. I went off Zen many years ago because I felt only Theravada has the true teachings. But I must say I do see much wisdom in many zen teachings - and a real emphasis on the present moment. There's a mildly well-known zen dojo near where I live in Japan and I've been to a couple of their day sittings. The monks always say "Imasugu!" (right Now!)and how real zen is not in the temple - it is everywhere. . Robk p.s. The sitting is great fun too - a black robed monk slowly paces round with the traditional stick and anyone who wants a few wake up wacks bows and receives. Very traditional with cherry trees in the courtyard and austerity and tatami mats. 35167 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 7:47am Subject: Nibbana and Anatta Dear Dhamma Friends, 2 months after His attainment of enlightenment, The Buddha preached the first discourse to the first five disciples that is '' pancavaggi ''. The Buddha's first discourse was preached on a fullmoon day. Venerable Kondanna who was the oldest became a sotapanna at the end of the discourse. Majjhimapatipada or middle way or Noble Eightfold Path was taught to these five disciples on the fullmoon day. But on the next day that is the first waning moon day, Venerable Baddiya became a sotapanna. On the second waning moon day, Venerable Vappa became a sotapanna and on the third waning moon day, Venerable Mahanama became a sotapanna. And finally on the fourth waning moon day Venerable Assaji became a sotapanna. So on the 4th waning moon days, all of '' pancavaggi '' were sotapannas. On the 5th waning moon day, The Buddha preached 2nd Discourse called Anatta Lakkhana Sutta. At the end of this sutta, all '' pancavaggi '' or the first five disciples became arahats. Anatta was discovered by The Buddha and Buddhism has been started then. Today is the 5th waning moon day when The Buddha preached Anatta Lakkhana Sutta. May you all see Anatta with full understanding and see Nibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35168 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 8:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Hi Gabriel! > What would be action and reaction proccess called in > the abhidhamma thought? > Is it kamma just the pali name for action?What would > be the pali name for > reaction? ------------------------------------------------------- The Abhidhamma has ideas and event paired out at a Thesis/Antithesis scheme: Kusala-Akusala, hetu-Ahetu, paccaya-apaccaya and so on. Despite the fact the word kamma has a root meaning "action", at least at my readings I never found a word as "Akamma" or likewise. Corrections are welcome. I do prefer face up the Action-reaction question as a Kusala-akusala play off, as I've said you yesterday. The Abhidhamma won't make your College Science homework for you...but with Sila and Right effort you'll do it well! ----------------------------------------------------- > > Anyway, all I need is something like "Abhidhamma for > Dummies" ! I hope you > can help me with it... ------------------------------------------------------- You can try the Abhidhamma Sangaha, translated in english by Bhikkhu Boddhi. It's a medieval treatise or sumulla written by Anurudha (circa 1200 years before) to simplify the Abhidhamma studies! Seeya later on! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Kindest Regards, > > Gabriel Laera > > > ICQ:56458224 > MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... > > "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a > própria mente: esse é o > Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. > > ===== 35169 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 10:06am Subject: merely pondering, no 2 Hi Howard. Continuation: And this I heard on MP3: We still have the perversion of wrong remembrance of a whole body, of self, of mine. All these rupas of the body seem to be lasting, but they arise and fall away very fast. We can verify for ourselves to what extent there still is wrong view of permanence and self. I find that I confuse the six doors, confuse feeling cetasika with rupa. At first we may not know to what extent we take dhammas for self, but as understanding develops, even a little, we begin to understand that there is the perversion of wrong remembrance of self. H: But recollection of the Dhamma at appropriate times, something most certainly wonderful and beneficial, amounts to fallout from listening, understanding, and pondering. But it does not constitute practice. What is still required are actions pursuant to that recalled knowledge. Are listening and considering the only volitional actions the Buddha recommended? Are they the *main* practices he recommended? Does one develop sila merely as fallout from hearing about it and thinking about it? Does one develop samadhi merely as fallout from hearing and thinking about it? Are intellectual knowledge and its pondering the only sources of wisdom? I don't believe that the Buddha taught what amounts to positive answers to these questions. I don't believe that the Dhamma is a "one-trick pony". N: As I wrote to Herman, the actual practice is when samma-sati and samma-ditthi arise, they do the actual practice, not we. They can arise when there has been enough listening and considering. Take the guarding of the six doors. Sati and pañña perform these functions, and they do so irrespective of time and place, when confronted with other people or in situations of daily life. That is where we can practise right speech, not when we are on our own. I think once we have understood this, the Q about how and when there is practice becomes irrelevant. The akusala cittas are conditioned by the latent tendencies and it is all unforeseeable when they arise. We would like to prevent them but they are so fast, they are suddenly arising. But by guarding the doorways now, just now, by awareness of one object appearing through one of these doors, we actually prepare the ground for right sila. Sila includes all kusala through body, speech and mind. I do not see sila as rules that are imposed from outside, nor as merely restraining, but rather as a change from akusala to kusala by pañña, an inward process of development. Also samatha and vipassana are practice. Samatha includes also the recollections mentioned before that are suitable for all occasions. Recollection of the teachings, such as are explained in the Abhidhamma. Very helpful for right understanding and such good reminders for satipatthana now. I do not mind if you call them fall out, a consequence of listening. H: ...(snipped) I wholeheartedly approve of and endorse "listening with the purpose of considering, understanding and applying what one heard in the circumstances of daily life." The question is what constitutes applying the knowledge gained through listening and considering. The Buddha included the "how to" as part of his teaching. But if we do not carry that out, then we are not following his Dhamma. N: I tried to explain above, and I agree, these are crucial points. It is not easy to explain these things, I find. If it is not clear, I try other angles. I also realize that each time I speak about the first stage of insight, distinguishing nama from rupa, thus, what I say about rupa may not have much meaning to you. I wonder how you would combine it with phenomenology. Perhaps only partly so? But visible object appears, it is different from sound and we can be aware of those rupas. Visible object is not seeing. We know in theory, but now: the practice. I take them together and find it difficult to know their different characteristics seperately. Why did the Buddha with so much insistence speak in the suttas about the six doorways, the objects experienced through them, the cittas that experience them? I think he wanted to say: be aware of each object seperately, as it appears, so that there is heedfulness. Do not delay being aware of what appears through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. Be aware now so that the six doors are guarded. This is the practice. Nina. 35170 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV 92 Hi Icaro, op 04-08-2004 20:02 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: >> N: There are many degrees and forms of each of these >> realities and one >> translation cannot cover all. Conventional language >> may give only one aspect >> and that can be confusing. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > At your post about the Atthasallini (The Expositor) I > read that Domanassa, Patigha, etc, are rooted on Dosa > (Hate , Fear, Rage and so on). At least at my own > viewpoint they don't have necessarily the same > meaning. N: Dosa cetasika is aversion, hate, etc. it has many shades. Domanassa, unpleasant feeling is different from dosa, it feels. Patigha is another name for dosa cetasika. It can be translated as repulsion, but it is dosa cetasika. Rooted in dosa: this is one aspect of dosa, dosa as root. One may wonder why it is said again accompanied by unpleasant feeling and associated-with-repulsion. As I wrote: < It is stated that the citta rooted in dosa is accompanied by unpleasant feeling and associated-with-repulsion in order to stress that dosa and unpleasant feeling always arise together. Whenever the feeling is unpleasant, it shows that there is aversion at that moment.> When you are jogging, there is exertion, some slight bodily pain and this gives rise immmediately to dosa+ domanassa, before we realize it. The same with mental exertion: trying to remember the grammar of Pali or of Hebrew. There are dosa+ domanassa, the inseparable companions. It is hard to realize all these different characteristics, only direct understanding developed in insight can do so. I: I am thinking about the differences between the > Pali used on Canon texts as the Dhammasangani and > their Tiikas, for example. Are the Tiikas a "practical > report"of issues on original text? Or are they a > further development of the basic ideas ? In my > opinion, both! N: Good question. The Tiika is written by Dhammapala, and he was after Buddhaghosa. He also studied at the Mahaavihaara and used sources similar to Buddhaghosa. He refers many times to the Dhammasangani and to sutta texts. My own impression is that he is firmly rooted in the old Theravada tradition. I am so happy to make this study, and grateful to the Commentators, because the Tiika helps me to go deeper into the meaning of the Visuddhimagga itself and the whole of the Abhidhamma. Sometimes the Vis. is very short, and the Dhammasangani is even shorter, and the Tiika helps to understand the meaning of what is really in the texts. Yes, it is also practical, it makes me realize that the whole of the Abhidhamma is for the application in daily life. Sometimes theories are discussed of points that were issues in ancient times but do not seem relevant now. That does not disturb me, I just leave them. I will not translate all. I do not see the Tiika as a further development, rather as a help to better understand what is in the Abhidhamma. I do not see any renovations in the Tiika. I: And there's no confusion, since if > Domanassa are rooted on Dosa, for example, they aren't > the same event or being! N: Right, not the same. The citta and accompanying cetasikas, including domanassa have as roots: moha and dosa, two roots. Moha, ignorance, is the root of each akusala citta. There is always ignorance whenever akusala citta arises. Nina. 35171 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 11:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: A way to make merit and reduce lust at the same time Hey Howard, H> I had to laugh when reading "Simply stop being greedy, lustful and hating!" Were it that easy! I know - just say "Let there be equanimity!" ;-)) E: And here I was trying to make people laugh with the delusion comment. Go figure! :-) H> Happily, I do not have an aversive nature. That is not a big problem with me. Nor am I greedy in the selfish sense. E: Good for you (or the not-you) Howard!! H> But craving/desire is my strongest area of vulnerability. E: Yes, then here maybe some connect the dots analysis may help. Sure some of the dot connectors can chime in. Make sure to color in the lines though! H> And, in my experience, when there is *any* area of deficit that is really strong, more than subtlety is required. There is "teeth clenching" resistance required. The Buddha said that one must, as a last resort, when all else fails, forcefully suppress akusala reactions, and I believe he was quite right. At times, I think, one needs to be a "Dhamma Warrior", engaging in "Dhamma Combat". By that I don't mean the "Dharma Combat" of the Zen folks, sparring with words, but the sort of "combat" which pits one quite forcefully against Mara's minions that have set up shop in one's mind. There are times at which one must put aside subtle responses and engage in full battle. Each of us has to determine for him/herself when that time has come. E:I wrote the post because I liked what Krishnamurti had to say about practicing nonviolence. He said it is a postponement by thought. He always said if you dont want to be violent then stop acting violently! I guess teeth clenched with battle garb on is one way, I think? :-) PEACE E 35172 From: Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/5/04 10:44:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > You know it is interesting about Zen. I went off Zen many years ago > because I felt only Theravada has the true teachings. > But I must say I do see much wisdom in many zen teachings - and a > real emphasis on the present moment. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree with you about Theravada being the truest, and I also have a very warm feeling and appreciation for much of Zen. -------------------------------------------- > There's a mildly well-known zen dojo near where I live in Japan and > I've been to a couple of their day sittings. The monks always > say "Imasugu!" (right Now!)and how real zen is not in the temple - > it is everywhere. . > --------------------------------------- Howard: That's great! -------------------------------------- > Robk > p.s. The sitting is great fun too - a black robed monk slowly paces > round with the traditional stick and anyone who wants a few wake up > wacks bows and receives. Very traditional with cherry trees in the > courtyard and austerity and tatami mats. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds lovely! I used to do "all day sits" at the Ch'an Center of NY. Also very nice, but not nearly so beautiful (an understatement! ;-), and no supervising bhikshu. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35173 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Hi Icaro, I forgot to mention our helpfull virtual conversation we had yesterday night! And again thank you very much for your answer! I will try harder and try to maximize my efforts towards this. Metta, Gabriel Laera ICQ:56458224 MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. ----Original Message Follows---- From: icaro franca Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Hi Gabriel! > What would be action and reaction proccess called in > the abhidhamma thought? > Is it kamma just the pali name for action?What would > be the pali name for > reaction? ------------------------------------------------------- The Abhidhamma has ideas and event paired out at a Thesis/Antithesis scheme: Kusala-Akusala, hetu-Ahetu, paccaya-apaccaya and so on. Despite the fact the word kamma has a root meaning "action", at least at my readings I never found a word as "Akamma" or likewise. Corrections are welcome. I do prefer face up the Action-reaction question as a Kusala-akusala play off, as I've said you yesterday. The Abhidhamma won't make your College Science homework for you...but with Sila and Right effort you'll do it well! ----------------------------------------------------- > > Anyway, all I need is something like "Abhidhamma for > Dummies" ! I hope you > can help me with it... ------------------------------------------------------- You can try the Abhidhamma Sangaha, translated in english by Bhikkhu Boddhi. It's a medieval treatise or sumulla written by Anurudha (circa 1200 years before) to simplify the Abhidhamma studies! Seeya later on! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Kindest Regards, > > Gabriel Laera > > > ICQ:56458224 > MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... > > "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a > própria mente: esse é o > Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. ===== 35174 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 1:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta and spinach Thank you Eric. Your responses to these issues is clear and convincing to me. I appreciate the clarity and the obvious logic of what you say. A few "ditto" comments below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Jon, > > > E> Of course Jon. I am not saying it is for everyone. But you are > > saying it is for a select few i.e. only the Popeyes! > > J> Actually, not quite. I'm saying that although spinach is good for > everyone, it's not a must, unless you want to be a Popeye > (superhero). > > E> I just want to walk the path Jon. If it is good > for everyone, then what is the harm? I mean it > reduces bodily stress and mental stress. Also, > if it makes one a superhero, what is the harm > in recommending it to people in general? I don't see > what your aversion to it is, especially after you agreed > that it is good!! Now if it is a matter of 'personal' > taste, why didn't you just say so from the beginning?! I am sure that Jon's objection must not really be just a question of personal taste, but more principled. So I agree it would be good to bring out the principle upon which one would not want to recommend such practice as kusala for all. > Jon > Sure, the Buddha praised samatha and the jhanas highly, but > the important question to be asked is whether he said that the > jhanas were necessary for the development of insight now (i.e., > insight of a presently arisen dhamma). I'd be interested to > hear your views on this. ...I would say that it is a 8 fold path, > not a 1 fold, i.e. just SATI. So, Right Concentration is > defined as Jhana. Seems we can not get around this. I am anxious to see Jon's response to this. It appears to be very convincing, and if so, causes a problem for the path of "dry" insight [without jhana]. > Specifically to your question. IMHO and experience, if > the mind is not calm and concentrated, insight will not > arise. I am speaking very practicaly here Jon. Concentration > must be able to hold or encompass 'feeling', if it cannot > then Dependent Origination moves like a lightning bolt. > The mind must be still for it to hold or see the present > arisen dhamma within a frame of reference. If not, you get > 'monkey mind' with much discursive thought. Again, this > is my experience. This is a wonderful description, and gives as good a description of the relationship of concentration to insight as I have seen. Thank you. This is why I asked you where is > intellectual panna in the seven factors of awakening? Yes, an interesting question. Best, Robert Ep. 35175 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Nina, James, Jon, and Robert) - > > In a message dated 8/1/04 8:47:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > > > Hi all, > > > > My internet has been down for the last two days. Quite a blessing > > really!! > > > > I wonder what is going on. Recently James made some comments to Nina and > > Jon replied. Now Howard gets a reply from RobK when asking Nina a > > question. I understand that some folks here have formed special > > friendships, but... > > > > this is the advice the Buddha gives as to who is a friend. > > > > "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable > > comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, easily > > &without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the > > opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on contentment, on > > seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on > > concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge &vision > > of release. " > > > > The whole sutta is Anguttara Nikaya IX.1 > > Sambodhi Sutta > > Self-awakening > > > > It is to be addressed to members of non-Buddhist sects. > > > > It finishes with: He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so > > as to cut off distractive thinking. He should develop the perception of > > inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving > > inconstancy, the perception of not-self is made firm. One perceiving > > not-self attains the uprooting of the conceit, 'I am' -- Unbinding in > > the here &now." > > > > It is clear I have a number of very good friends here. I am very > > grateful to them. > > > > Herman > > > > > ============================= > Thank you for your post, Herman. It seems that you are looking to > "defend" James and me, though maybe I misunderstand. If I'm correct, I'd like to > say that I certainly appreciate such kindness, but I'd like to add that I > really think it's very much okay for "third parties" to provide responses. I do > that myself not infrequently. > Specifically, I have no problem with Robert's reply to me. I disagree > with him on this matter, but that's fine. So long as we on the list remain > cordial, or, better, remain good friends, there will be no problem. What I find > very welcome in your post, Herman, is that I think it is aimed at maintaining > an openness and a "live and let live" attitude on the list. This is really > important for the proper interaction of friends in the Dhamma. > > With much metta, > Howard Hi, Howard, Herman and all...., Howard, I am glad that you did not take offense at my response, and I hope that others do not take offense when fellow list members "jump in" on a topic. Howard, for the record, I do not remember what I said or what it was about, and since Herman did not indicate the original thread name, I failed in trying to look it up. I'd be curious to know what we disagreed about.... : ) On the general topic, my sense of a group like this is that it is an open group discussion, and that even if an individual is addressed, we are all free to pop in and state our view or add some information to the conversation. If one wanted to only address the person in question, since there are always a few hundred or thousand people listening in, they would contact that person privately. If they post to the list, they must at least have some interest in others overhearing or participating. With that said, I agree with Howard, that if one person is addressed and another answers, it should be done with a recognition and respect for the fact that a particular individual was addressed, and not usurp the relationship or the subject. But if it is done respectfully, it should be okay for others to come in and comment, perhaps to thicken the soup, or sometimes to clarify it. It might be possible to say "I know you addressed this to Nina, but I hope you don't mind if I make a comment...," but I think for those of us who know each other and have interacted here a lot on various hot topics, that is taken for granted. Best, Robert Ep. P.S. And hi, Herman, always happy to hear from you in whatever context. : ) 35176 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Hello Sarah & Herman, Tks. for your kind posts. More comments below ... Sarah: I agree with Herman's kind request. What's the hurry? MB: It is not really a question of hurry right now since I am in a sort of vacation. My older son is visiting from Brazil and my younger one is on vacation from school. My wife is away on a month long retreat and I am not working in the web site. But soon everything will be back to the usual routine with the work on the web site, meditation practice and house chores. To be an active member in the list would require a level of commitment and time that I will not have. Sarah: you also mentioned a promise that you would 'post the Ktv comments in the list' as well for further discussion. I've kept them, so can help out if you don't have your copy!! They related to the first book, 'Existence of a Personal Entity' and the meaning of something 'known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact'. You also raised points on 'matter as a result of kamma'. MB: Maybe sometime in the future I will come back to these issues. But it is really not that important. At least not for me right now. Sorry if I disappoint you. Sarah: I'm also interested to hear about your trip to Brazil (did you see Icaro or any of our other new Brazilian members?). Also did you go on the retreat with Leigh Brasington I think you referred to before? Many people will be interested to hear about it if so. I wonder if you heard back from B.Gunaratana on magga and phala which I think you said he'd asserted to be 'separate events' or considered those suttas further. MB: My trip to Sao Paulo was really brief. Just a couple of days and I didn't meet anyone except my son who lives there. The retreat with Leigh was great. When it comes to jhana, he really knows what he is talking about. A 10 day retreat is too short though and I have already planned to go in February of next year on the same month long retreat my wife is currently attending. If anyone has a strong interest in jhana I would strongly recommend to check him out. In relation to magga/phala I haven't heard further from Bhante G but read Bhikkhu Boddhi's Introduction to the Majjhima Nikaya were he refers to the disparity between the suttas and abhidhamma, and also read some samyutta nikaya suttas which again point to magga/phala as separate individuals. But again I don't think it is that relevant and there is not much point in pursuing this for the time being. I am travelling with my sons next Saturday and will be away for a week anyway so will not have the chance to continue chatting. Sarah: In any case, thanks for dropping by and sharing your feedback - it's always good to hear from old friends;-) MB: Again, Sarah (and Herman) thanks for the nice words. I will come back eventually. Metta Michael 35177 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > > > > Thanks for your post. Yes, you did read my intentions correctly, > but if > > I could elaborate some more. > > > > I know James and you and others do not require defense, you are all > > quite capable of skillfully verbalizing your understandings of the > > Buddha's teachings and how they relate to your experience. Rather > than > > defending you, I was trying to encourage you :-). > > > > That the discussion has deteriorated into a defense of K Sujin has > given > > me reason to believe that my initial, but unspoken, assessment of > what > > was going on was not far off the mark. > > > > If this group is actually about studying, propagating the > teachings of > > or otherwise sanctifying K Sujin, I would prefer that to be made > known. > >=========== > Dear Herman, > Part of this group description it says "The group started in > Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the Thai > Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket". Thus every member > should have some inkling that the founders of the group and a number > of members are friends of Sujin. I posted a quote from Sujin because > Eric and Howard were asking: > > ""In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Eric, and all) - > > ericlonline op ericlonline@y...: > > > >E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development? > > >> ============================ > > But what, Nina, and all > > others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti """ > > Note that Howard asked Nina AND ALL. If he had specified Nina or > Eric had not asked about A. Sujin I would not have replied or I > would have used my own words. I thought Eric and Howard wanted > Sujins interpretations, rather than mine. > > Howard felt that this was destroying the Dhamma as his quote from > the peg sutta indicates. Was it wrong to investigate this? > On this list there are maybe 7 or 8 occasions apart from this week > where I refer to the writings of Sujin, out of more than a 1000 > posts I made. > I rejoined this week after promising Nina that I would, however if > it is going to be slights and arguments again then I leave. > It simply leads to devaluation of the Dhamma. > > RobertK Although I was one of the original posters that Herman referred to, I find myself coming into this controversy late, so I may be missing some pieces. It seems that there were some posts perhaps not in this thread that I haven't seen...not sure... In any case, I would like to put my two cents in, for better or worse. First of all, I think that controversy that is caused by genuine doctrinal problems or conflicts are both necessary and desireable. If yhou, Rob K, and Howard, disagree on what source to use in determining the definition of something, then to me that is worthy of discussion. If occassionally discussion gets heated then it is an opportunity to practice dispassion and see what the "meat" of the matter is in order to respond in a way that you think will support the clarity of the Dhamma. But such occasions, it seems to me, are inherent in our playing field of samsara. In a previous post, Christine quoted the mission statement of this group and said we should "get on with it," but it seems to me that all of this is precisely "getting on with it," if we use the occasion to look into the nature of reality. Conflicts between students of dhamma is a great occasion to look at the nature of relationships and how emotions and thoughts arise in accord with dependent origination. I don't think we should shy away from such things and should jump further *into* them with dispassion, rather than try to clean them up and make things nicer or neater. In the final analysis, I would agree that it's better to have peace and equanimity in order to discern realities. But what if there are real issues that have to be unearthed? What if your return to the list [welcomed on my part even thought I'm only able to pop in infrequently myself] is a catalyst to open things up to deeper understanding? This is by way of encouraging you to stay and "thrash it out" as things are always changing and there will be many other opportunities to participate in many ways. I always found you a balanced and balancing influence, someone who is both committed to Abhidhdamma and also open to other beings who have something to say. Finally [I know I talk too much] I think that those who are truly disciples of K. Sujin should be able to cite her, quote her, and adhere to her, if they truly feel that her interpretation of the Dhamma and commentaries are of great insight or wisdom. Why not? In fact, I would be a lot happier if she is quoted openly and freely and her teachings can be made a visible part of the conversation. I often ask: "Where does this interpretation come from?" and if in some cases the answer is K. Sujin's teaching on the commentaries, then that is very useful information. In other cases it may be the Suttas or Abhidhamma, and that is also useful information. Those who are not Abhidhamma adherents and have not met K. Sujin [myself included] have always been treated fairly here, and allowed to disagree, and we should not be afraid of the fact that there are those who follow K. Sujin's teachings as well. We're all free to follow the path of wisdom as best we know how. And to talk about it. : ) Best, Robert Ep. 35178 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > >I rejoined this week after promising Nina that I would, however if > >it is going to be slights and arguments again then I leave. > >It simply leads to devaluation of the Dhamma. > > I respectfully decline any part in the motivations for your comings or > goings. > > Still, I feel much grief that all this is happening. > > And sublimated rage as well. > > I hope we all find what we are looking for. > > Herman Herman, You may feel once again that I am intruding where not invited, and if so I will take the risk that you will find me out of sorts. But I would like to say, hopefully helpfully, that if you disavow responsibility for Robert K.'s comings and goings, why not relive him of any responsibility for your grief or rage? I mean this in order to encourage all of us to "find what we are looking for" by looking at our own reactions and following the Buddha's advice not to see them as emanating from anyone else's actions. I don't have the sutta handy, but he said something to the effect that we should take an insult or upset with detachment and not see the person who insults or offends as the perpetrator of anything against us. To do so would be promoting the idea of a self that can be insulted, upset or harmed. Anyway, I am extrapolating a bit, but I hope you and others may see this as a way of making use of the current upsetting situation, rather than me being high and mighty and trying to tell you what to do. I've been trying to practice this kind of thing myself lately, with both failure and success, and so I'm bringing it with me to this situation as well. As always, With affection, Robert Ep. 35179 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > We need to keep the ego out of Dhamma discussion as far as possible. But > we mustn't be afraid of disagreement. Otherwise we may throw the baby out > with the bathwater [get rid of disputes by altering the Dhamma]. What's > wrong with altering the Dhamma? It means that people further down the > line don't get the opportunity to decide things for themselves.> Dear Sarah, I wanted to highlight this very important point. There is a balance that is sometimes difficult to achieve between "respectful discussion" and "inauthentic agreement." The peace that is established by compromising just for the sake of peace is not a real peace, it is a false peace. It is necessary for conflict to arise and be met with dispassionate determination to find the truth in order for doctrinal disagreements to be worked out authentically. And to practice the virtue of patience, which Buddha acknowledged as one of the most difficult, in order to deal with the fact that they might not be resolved in our lifetimes. The tension between believing something and being open to new information, as expressed by Eric in another thread, is one that I think should always be kept alive, so that we don't become too attached to our own point of view, but keep the Dhamma a growing and developing source of wisdom within us. And what you said about future generations is also very important. Best, Robert Ep. 35180 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:58pm Subject: Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Ken, > > ------------------------- > E: > Nice post! I was beginning to think this list was comprised > of nothing but book buddhists! jk all you folks with ink on > your fingers and no callouses on your butts! ;-) > -------------------------- > > K: Thanks for that image, Eric. :-) Does it embarrass you that your > preferred interpretation of the Buddhadhamma focuses on the > posterior? :-) > > E: You gotta start somewhere. May as well start > from the bottom. :-) > > K: At DSG, we are studying the Buddhadhamma as preserved in the Pali > Canon and its ancient commentaries. This is a teaching that is > unexcelled - profound beyond description. To understand it, youhave > to put aside all conventional notions of religious practice. > > E: Yeah my favorite Buddha Image is the one where > the Buddha is seated under the Bodhi tree with this > stack of books next him and a pair of reading glasses > on his nose. There is a quote on the bottom, "Upturn that > lamp so I can read". Quite inspiring actually!! > > K: That is why some of us seem strange to you: we have found > something totally beyond yoga, formal meditation and the ritual > observance ofrules and precepts. > > E: Yeah, you have discovered one of the aggregates, thought. > Look I read too. But it seems you are turning the Dhamma into > the dhamma. You are becoming a fundamentalist. The 'Truth' > is in the 'Word' of 'The Book' from 'The Awakened One', etc. > > K: We might seem strange by conventional standards, but it is not us > who have diverged from the original teaching. > > E: The battle cry of the fundamentalist. The original teacher > said shut up, sit down and find out for yourself. Not shut up, > sit down and read a bunch of books and philosophize. The original > teacher did not write one book!! Look at what you are doing > for god sakes! > > K: If you can find anything in the Theravada literature that > prescribes or describes commonplace activities (activities known to > other philosophies) as being instrumental in the way to > enlightenment, please say so, we will be only too happy to set you > straight.:-) > > E: News flash: The Buddha was not a Theravadan! > > PEACE > > E I agree with you again Eric, and find your clarity very helpful. I would just add, per Ken's last comment above, that reading is also a conventional, commonplace activity. Robert 35181 From: Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/5/04 5:06:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > Hi, Howard, Herman and all...., > Howard, I am glad that you did not take offense at my response, and I > hope that others do not take offense when fellow list members "jump > in" on a topic. Howard, for the record, I do not remember what I said > or what it was about, and since Herman did not indicate the original > thread name, I failed in trying to look it up. I'd be curious to know > what we disagreed about.... : ) ------------------------------------------ Howard: Robert, you are such a good, sweet guy!! You are reacting kindly, almost apologetically in fact, even when you don't know what we disagreed about. And it's not surprising that you don't know, because you were not the "Robert" involved! ;-) It was Robert Kirkpatrick with whom I was conversing and exchanging differing opinions on an issue. Thank you for being such a kindly person! ------------------------------------------------ > > On the general topic, my sense of a group like this is that it is an > open group discussion, and that even if an individual is addressed, we > are all free to pop in and state our view or add some information to > the conversation. If one wanted to only address the person in > question, since there are always a few hundred or thousand people > listening in, they would contact that person privately. If they post > to the list, they must at least have some interest in others > overhearing or participating. > > With that said, I agree with Howard, that if one person is addressed > and another answers, it should be done with a recognition and respect > for the fact that a particular individual was addressed, and not usurp > the relationship or the subject. But if it is done respectfully, it > should be okay for others to come in and comment, perhaps to thicken > the soup, or sometimes to clarify it. > > It might be possible to say "I know you addressed this to Nina, but I > hope you don't mind if I make a comment...," but I think for those of > us who know each other and have interacted here a lot on various hot > topics, that is taken for granted. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > P.S. And hi, Herman, always happy to hear from you in whatever > context. : ) > > =========================== With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35182 From: Norman Joseph Smith Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 2:01pm Subject: New realisations about the path Dear Friends I hope you are well and happy. I have recently been contemplating the relationship between the three classes of action: mental, verbal and bodily, the first of which the Buddha said causes the most stress [dukkha], the general summary of the path as ethics [siila], concentration [samaadhi] and wisdom [pannyyaa], and the four classes of noble people on the path: a stream enterer, a once returner, a non-returner and an accomplished one. Ethics for me covers the three classes of action mentioned above. In the past is was clear to me that the first practice on the path was changing the way I thought about myself, in a way, not thinking about myself, i.e. not making a mental image of myself, not doing the "I am..." head trip, but rather just seeing what is there as it is, my experience as a whole; seeing my body/behaviour, sensations, ideas, emotions, experiences [the five clinging aggregates] as they are, which would be calm [samatha] practice and then how they come to be, which would be insight [vipasanaa] practice. Stopping that specific type of thinking: "I am Buddhist", "I am angry" ... and replacing it with a clearer idea of what is there in my experience: "I BELIEVE this..." "I FEEL angry..." lead me to the first fruits of the path that the Buddha spoke of in the early texts: unshakable faith in the triple gem and unshakable ethics, or in a negative version, the eradication of identity view, doubt, and attachment to rites and rituals as the path of purification, e.g. thinking washing in some holy water, or chanting some special words, would purify me. These are the marks of the stream enterer, one bound for enlightenment. The definition of ethics is quite clear and specific: Avoiding [intentionally]: - killing another human being - stealing from another human being - lying to another human being - non-consentual [rape] and non-mutual [paedophilia] sexual pleasure - leading others into these kinds of behaviours Seeing as a stream enterer is said to have unshakable ethics they would not [intentionally] do these things. The bad habits to be avoided [on top of ethics] would be an extention of ethics. (The distinction of ethics and bad habits is in the Discipline [Vinaya] and we are supposed to look at both Discourse [Sutta] and Discipline in working out the Buddha's teaching.) So killing any other kind of living being is a bad habit to be avoided. This would mean that [intentionally] killing a human being is unethical and could not be done by a stream enterer and killing a mosquito should be avoided, but could be done by a stream enterer and so with the others. So the stream enter's path seems to focus on the mental action of thinking mainly, which would seem very effective and going to the heart of the problem, if that was the main cause of stress as the Buddha said. It is my experience that I think more than I say and do and it is much easier to change my thought than my word or deed. I firstly need to recognise it just as it is first, that it is a thought that I created and can change. It would also agree with the quote of the Buddha that the amount of stress eradicated on realising stream entry is like the rest of the water left in the sea once one had dipped one's finger in it and the amount of stress left is like the water on one's finger. It would also agree with the flow on effect of the path evident in the idea that the stream enterer is BOUND FOR enlightenment. If we think most the time and how we think effects our words and deeds then it is easy to see how there would be a flow on effect. Now it seems to me that the path of the once returner builds on this [the mental cleansing of the stream enterer] and focusses on the second class of action, verbal action or speech and the non-returner focusses on the third class of action, bodily action or deed, but all have flow on effects. So having stopped lying as a stream enterer, a once returner would be working on avoiding other types of unwholesome speech, like gossip, back biting, idle talk etc. It would be because the work is firstly inner [about the mind/thought] and that their qualities would initially be things they DON'T do [or stop doing] rather than things they DO, that a noble one is difficult to identify. As one purifies each action of thought, word and deed one develops good habits and is able to concentrate more and identify other actions that need purification. So ethics leads to concentration as it says. I don't know if you know this Zen [jhaayin] story: The visitor and the master sat down to have tea. As the Master poored tea to serve the guest, the guest asked how to realise enlightenment, while doing this the tea started to overflow the guest's cup and the master continued pooring. The guest said, hey it full already and the master said, so with your mind, you have to empty it before you can put any more in. This is interesting seeing as Aasava often translated as "canker" can be understood as "outflow" and it is the Aasava that the third insight knowledge is called 'the end-of-aasava- knowledge'. In relation to the four types of Noble Ones and the Path. It seems to me that the first three are emptying [cleaning, clearing] the bad stuff out and with a purified mind then the Accomplished One would then be able to see things clearly and start putting his energy into more positive adventures/endeavours. --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith Promotion of my book, The Gift of the Buddha, with a foreword by HHDL: http://www.geocities.com/josmith_1_2000/tgotb E-group on my book, get a free older copy: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt E-group on 4 Chinese Aagmas compared with 4 Paali Nikaayaa: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/monkey_magic Please Act Urgently: http://www.geocities.com/josmith_1_2000/urgent_action_please.html If you're replying to a newsgroup or e-group post of mine please also CC to me personally. All e-mail addresses are in square brackets with the @ sign replaced by a space, to make it harder for hackers to use extraction programs. E-mail/MSN: [josmith.1 bigfoot.com] E-mail/Yahoo: [josmith_1_2000 yahoo.com] Student Email: [s351543 student.uq.edu.au] ICQ: http://wwp.icq.com/183459 Home or V-mail: +61 (0)500523778 Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653 S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1 Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and others) and be online with all of them at the same time. Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to the sender. 35183 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 4:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi Rob E, I appreciated your posts very much. Still owe a few people a reply, but I feel I can "liberate a few birds with one post" here. (Killing a few birds with one stone is so Paleolithic). I think I have created the impression that I object(ed) to people butting in. I can see how that impression has come about. And it is my poor expression that lies at the root of that. And while the issues relating to some harsh and unwise things that I said have been dialectically resolved in an admirable manner, I just want to clarify, if only for the sake of future readers reading past posts :-) What "my beef" was about, though poorly expressed, is the idea of a "special friendship" that can underlie people's behaviour. I accept it is not for me to go poking and prodding into what the actual (as opposed to apparent) motivation behind any post is, and I am sorry for doing it. But the perception of "special friendship" was the prime mover for me. It simply is a fact of life that members of this list can be loosely divided into those that know each other only via the list, and those that also know each other outside of the list. If one were to analyse patterns of posting, I think there would be a more distinct pattern of support within the sub-groups that have external contact. After all, we are social animals* and I accept that. (Wouldn't it be hilarious if Sarah and Jon had a discussion on-line :-)). On the particular day(s), whether I was just plain wrong or absolutely totally wrong, I reacted to what I perceived as special friends supporting each other, as opposed to non-partisan dhamma discussion. The beautiful practice of the Brahma Viharas is so infinitely wise because it is undirected and totally not-selective. It covers all beings and all spheres. We are all "special friends", despite the fact that some of us know just how radiant some others look at breakfast :-) In summary, I do not object to butting in, in fact, I positively encourage it. I am a fool, but a very special one :-) And RobK is a champ! Thanks and Cheers Herman * With regards to us being social animals, one of the chief benefits of seeking the seclusion of a metaphorical foot of a tree is that it is a context in which there is no "society". Meditation allows for the evaporation of the social context. Society is the context in which the conceit of "I", "me" and "mine" arises and is nurtured. 35184 From: Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Vism.XIV 93 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 93. II. (c) That 'rooted in delusion' is of two kinds: (32)-(33) being 'accompanied-by-equanimity', it is either 'associated-with-uncertainty' or 'associated-with-agitation'. It should be understood to occur at the time of indecision or of distraction. So unprofitable consciousness is of twelve kinds. 35185 From: connieparker Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 10:40pm Subject: Re: Basic question ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Hi Gabriel, Icaro, Not a correction. I just thought the reaction might be vipaka? peace, connie >> What would be action and reaction proccess called in >> the abhidhamma thought? >> Is it kamma just the pali name for action?What would >> be the pali name for >> reaction? > ------------------------------------------------------- > The Abhidhamma has ideas and event paired out at a > Thesis/Antithesis scheme: Kusala-Akusala, hetu-Ahetu, > paccaya-apaccaya and so on. Despite the fact the word > kamma has a root meaning "action", at least at my > readings I never found a word as "Akamma" or likewise. > Corrections are welcome. 35186 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 11:13pm Subject: Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hi Eric, I was talking about formal sitting meditation and the leg and back pain that can accompany it. You wrote: ------------- > E: Well then you would have confirmed the > 1st and 2nd truths and also that there is no > permanent happiness to be found in the body > or vedana! > -------------- I wonder what you mean by that. Needless to say, the four great truths are indeed great -- as in profound. The mere experience of pain does confirm that pain exists, but I don't see how it confirms anything profound. And I don't see how it confirms that the cause of dukkha is desire (tanha). ---------- E: > > Check out A. Boowa's story. He started sitting > all night long. He says that a pain ensues that > effects every cell of the body. He says that normal > dukkha vedana is like a cat compared to an elephant > in regards to this pain. He says he conquered it and > even the pain of death will not be greater than > the pain he felt while sitting. He also got rid of > all his fears during this time. > --------- Yes, sitting cross-legged for a long time can be extremely painful. In the altered states of consciousness induced by meditation, that pain can be magnified even more. I have a reduced range of movement in my right leg from having broken a femur. At the Goenka course, the intense pain I experienced in that leg brought vivid recollections of the car smash in which it happened twenty-four years earlier. But those gee-wiz experiences don't interest me: they have nothing to do with the Buddha's teaching. I don't know who A. Boowa is, but I have no doubt he is fooling himself and anyone unwise enough to listen to him. Kind regards, Ken H 35187 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 5, 2004 11:25pm Subject: Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hi RobEp and Eric, RobEp wrote: ------------ > I agree with you again Eric, and find your clarity very helpful. I would just add, per Ken's last comment above, that reading is also a conventional, commonplace activity. > ------------ Yes, and as I was saying to Eric, if you think a conventional, commonplace activity (any activity known to other philosophies) is instrumental in the way to enlightenment, then I'll be only too happy to set you straight. :-) As Andrew T has been saying, we can't expect to follow the Buddha's directions in the way we would follow a pirate's treasure map – ten paces north, eight paces east . . . (sit on a cushion, keep the back straight). If studying the Dhamma were as simple as picking up a book and reading it from cover to cover, then any literate person could attain enlightenment. Far from being a conventional activity, studying the Dhamma (as described by the Buddha as a factor for enlightenment) is a specific paramattha, kusala activity that conditions satipatthana. By `kusala activity' I mean wholesome citta with wholesome cetana. Being paramattha dhammas, these fleeting, ephemeral things are known only to the wise and there is no control over them – they arise when the conditions for their arising are present. When there is Dhamma study, in the form of kusala citta and cetana, there will also be the conventional reality of Dhamma study – that is, the reality of a person who is reading a book (or listening or considering and so on). However, that same conventional reality can also be seen when a person is reading a Dhamma book with evil intent – that is, with belief in a self who has something to gain. Or it can be seen when a person is reading with heedlessness or with attachment. At these times, the citta and cetana are akusala and definitely not what the Buddha described as factors for enlightenment. So the conventional activity known as `reading' is not ultimately real and it has no real characteristics. Therefore, it has no conditioning influence on the attainment of enlightenment (or on any other reality). Are we clear on that? :-) Kind regards, Ken H 35188 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: Pariyatti/pattipatti Hi Robert and All, Some thoughts I would like to express. Robert: > It is worrying that some who study even > Abhidhamma do not connect it with satipatthana. But Abhidhamma > is purely what is real - how can we separate this subject from > the direct study of dhammas? > Pariyatti should be intimately connected to pattipatti. I think this is very important to understand. The mental factor involved in pariyatti is the same as that which is involved in patipatti, i.e. panna, only the difference is that in the former the object is a `concept' about dhammas, and the latter has as its object the actual characteristics of those same dhammas. Both must go hand in hand, especially when sati and panna have not been developed to the level of becoming bala. And even then it is not a question of choosing to do away with `theory' and to get on with the practice, but I believe to be a matter of understanding thoroughly the difference and knowing that only the direct penetration of realities can lead to liberation. And this comes not through reasoning, we all can and do this, but often wrongly believe that the `self' can then just `practice'. Panna which has been developed, initially from `intellectual understanding' and subsequently through much experience of satipatthana, needs no convincing about the relevance of knowing realities. It just knows which way to go. On the other hand if we do not accept this fact of the relationship between pariyatti and patipatti, it leads to devaluing study and to control and promotion of the idea of `self' needing to be practical and so on. If we really understand what pariyatti is, then in fact there is no need to worry about practice. The moment of intellectual understanding itself, if in fact known, will be seen as being kusala and involving a level of sati. Besides, knowing the value of satipatthana is pariyatti, without which would we even consider developing it? So why so little appreciation of pariyatti? But of course, this must be seen and one can't expect to convince a person who thinks that pariyatti is `theory' as in the accumulation of information, to come to this conclusion by reasoning alone. The correct intellectual understanding must point to the relevance of understanding the present moment. It is I think a consequent of wrong conceptual understanding that ideas about time, place, and activity are created. And also such ideas which then is used to justify developing the individual factors of the eightfold Path, such as the need to have a concentrated mind, to exert, to have calm or develop the jhanas is I believe, from not knowing intellectually, the nature of dhammas. It seems so obvious that whatever we do, we are following the Buddha's teachings, only in so far that there is any level of panna in the present moment. And at a moment of satipatthana, all the factors necessary to be developed are being so. Howard often talks about starting from `where we are'. I believe where we all are most of the time with respect to the Teachings, is `conceptual' knowledge of it. When we hear about the great and the lesser disciples of the Buddha and about their renunciations, efforts and so on, we can appreciate their level of understanding and accumulations, with *our own* level of understanding, which again would be only at the level of pariyatti. The same with when hearing about difficult concepts such as the Paticcasamuppada. I believe it is wrong to grasp at understanding dependent origination and consequently risk fooling oneself into thinking that one has a good understanding when even nama and rupa has not been known. Likewise to imitate the outward behavior of the enlightened based on one's level of understanding, is placing oneself to be fooled by the illusion of result. It is good enough for example, that we appreciate the value of the life of the monk, but do we really understand it correctly to know that we don't have the understanding enough to lead such a life? As you said about `kusala thinking', even this is good enough for now. In fact whatever is conditioned to arise in the moment, that is the *best* we can do (conventionally speaking)! Why then be fooled into thinking that we can and must do something else (supposedly `better')? It is more valuable to know the present moment that to be drawn into any ensuing attractive story even if it is about enlightenment. Lastly, I believe if there is right intellectual understanding, informed by any experience of satipatthana, one will so understand the *conditioned* nature of dhammas, that then the Teachings would be seen as descriptive rather than prescriptive. See you tomorrow at Num's house. :-) Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Group, > A friend asked: > "I don't know that I've ever known the moment, but > it's > certainly clear in retrospect. But is this kind of > retrospection of some value, or just 'darting among > unrealities'?" > --- 35189 From: matt roke Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment Dear Robert & Howard. >You know it is interesting about Zen. I went off Zen many years ago >because I felt only Theravada has the true teachings. >But I must say I do see much wisdom in many zen teachings - and a >real emphasis on the present moment. >There's a mildly well-known zen dojo near where I live in Japan and >I've been to a couple of their day sittings. The monks always >say "Imasugu!" (right Now!)and how real zen is not in the temple - >it is everywhere. . Back in the 60’s there were people in the West talking about how one had to “be aware of the moment now”. The problem was they were not aware of what the “moment” was that they had to be aware of. Zen may be everywhere, but Dhamma is not. Nama and Rupa exist for one moment of a cita only and at that moment there is neither a “temple” nor an “everywhere”. When the moment is not known then there is a concept of temple, of a world outside the temple and a teaching that sounds wise but doesn’t develop wisdom. MattR 35190 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 4:57am Subject: past grasping cannot be removed? Dear Rob K and all, Mahasi Sayadaw taught: "Why don't we meditate on things past or future? Because they will not make you understand the real nature and cleanse you of defilements. ........... Things of the more recent past may be recalled. But, as you recall them, you think, "I saw, I heard, I thought. It was I who saw at that time and it is I who am seeing now." There is the "I" notion for you. There can even be notions of permanence and happiness. So recalling things past to meditate on do not serve our purpose. You have already grasped them and this grasping cannot be removed. Although you look on them as mind and matter with all your learning and thinking, the "I" notion persists because you have already grasped it. You say "impermanent" on the one hand, you get the notion "permanent" on the other. You note suffering, but the notion "happiness" keeps turning up. You meditate on not-self, but the self notion remains strong and firm. You argue with yourself. In the end your meditation has to give way to your preconceived ideas. http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/medbud/mahasifv.zip I would like to know how to deal with memories of a beautiful woman I met once. Is it too late to perceive her as unattractive with asubha practice? Thanks / Antony. 35191 From: nori Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 4:59am Subject: Blessed are the pure of heart (Citta) Hi Dhamma friends, Sometimes we all make dhamma so complicated. Maybe it is just as easy as this: Being true, not just in speech, but true to yourself in every aspect. To watch your heart, making effort to keep it clean of... Greed, Pride and Conceit, Belittling, Envy, ... that is, craving and aversion. Maybe its just that simple. peace, nori 35192 From: Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment Hi, Matt (and Robert) - In a message dated 8/6/04 5:58:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@h... writes: > Dear Robert &Howard. > > >You know it is interesting about Zen. I went off Zen many years ago > >because I felt only Theravada has the true teachings. > >But I must say I do see much wisdom in many zen teachings - and a > >real emphasis on the present moment. > >There's a mildly well-known zen dojo near where I live in Japan and > >I've been to a couple of their day sittings. The monks always > >say "Imasugu!" (right Now!)and how real zen is not in the temple - > >it is everywhere. . > > Back in the 60’s there were people in the West talking about how one had to > “be aware of the moment nowâ€?. The problem was they were not aware of what > the “momentâ€? was that they had to be aware of. > > Zen may be everywhere, but Dhamma is not. Nama and Rupa exist for one moment > > of a cita only and at that moment there is neither a “templeâ€? nor an > “everywhereâ€?. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, in Abhidhamma, objective content (arammana), may last for a number of mind moments, but still, I agree, quite briefly compared to the apparent duration of a conventional object. And I certainly agree that "temple" and "everywhere" are not direct elements of experience, but merely mental constructs. However, I would hasten to add that such mind constructs are encodings of patterned networks of relations holding among directly observed actualities, and, for worldlings, concepts (and percepts) are our means of experiencing these relations. I would also add that if our vision were only locally microscopic, and not relational, we would see the trees, but not the forest, and we would not know which way to go to leave the forest. And that's dangerous, because night is approaching, and beasts are about. ----------------------------------------------------- When the moment is not known then there is a concept of > > temple, of a world outside the temple and a teaching that sounds wise but > doesn’t develop wisdom. > > MattR > =========================== Matt, I very agree that distinguishing what arises from what merely seems to arise is essential, and a critical aspect of this is bringing the mind to the point that it sees clearly what actually is present at any (mind) moment. This is not an easy achievement (a gross understatement), and it requires a long and multi-faceted endeavor. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35193 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Dae all Some reactions to answers and statements about my 'social question'. Sarah and James asked to tell more about myself. I'm a retired man, grandfather, been working in child care, social science and social policy. I'm not so interested in myself and my future, for exemple not in the sentient being born after 'my' death, who has to do with the fruit of my kamma but is not me. As a western buddhist it's possible to me to construct a 'buddhism à la carte'; the mixture I prefere now is three quarter Theravada and the rest a percentage of Mahayana, agnosticism, natural science and free floating curiosity. Thanks Howard for using the concept 'solipsism', it's more precise than my mahayana citation that Theravada is 'egocentric'. It still is a difficult point to me. In my 'social question' I had the hope I had not read well about Abhidhamma, that there was for exemple a citta with the content "being aware of and feeling connected with another sentient being, especially with another human being" But such a citta doesn't exist, if I understood the answers well. It's not so difficult for me to see myself as only nama and rupa, but's difficult (in a ethical way) to see other being as only nama and rupa. Special the beings that are in a way dependent (food, care, etc) on me. And Sarah, is for exemple teaching the Dhamma to other people not important? So there are no "social citta's" but there are the Brahma-vihara. In his beautiful essay THE FOUR SUBLIME STATES (Wheel nr 6) Ven. Nyanaponika Thera comtemplates on Compassion (Karuna ): "The world suffers. But most men have their eyes and ears closed..ey do not see the unbroken stream of tears flowing through life; they do not hear the cry of distress continually pervading the world. Their own little grief or joy bars their sight,deafens their ears. Bound by selfishness, their hearts turn stiff and narrow. Being stiff and narrow,how should they be able to strive for any higher goal, to realize that only release from selfish craving will effect their own freedom from suffering? It is compassion that removes the heavy bar, opens the door to freedom, makes the narrow heart as wide as the world. Compassion takes away from the heart the inert weight, the paralysing heaviness; it gives wings to those who cling to the lowlands of self." That's other language then seeing a sentient being as nama and rupa. Speaking about "language", if there is one thing that is a social affair, then it is language. Cf the way a child learns speaking and the phenomena that a big part of what I cal 'tinking" is in effect a kind of internal dialogue. Are citta's possible without language, for exemple in a child with whom the parents or other people never talked at all? I think without (internal) language there is no consciousness Nina, I been reading some of your (internet) books and participated in a dhammagroup about one of them in Buddhavihara in Amsterdam. They really mean much to me. You wrote "The Abhidhamma helps to understand citta at this moment, to understand yourself, your own akusala and their conditons. In this way you will understand others. … No seventh doorway. But understanding just helps to be more sensitive to others' needs." Thanks for that concrete answer. I knew that there is not a seventh doorway in Abhidhamma, it was a little provocative question. I'm glad other's nedds are important to you too; and still I don't understand what the mental (?) activity called "UNDERSTANDING" is, is that a citta? You wrote " The Abhidhamma helps us to detect the near ennemies of the Brahmaviharas." I don't know if is is correct but to me 'indifference' is the near ennemy of equanimity; is that a correct view? Metta Joop 35194 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 6:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 036 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas in total in terms of characteristics. These cittas have to arise in connection with other dhamma like cetasikas and rupa dhamma. There is no atta or life or being in ultimate sense but arising and falling away of these dhamma such as cittas, cetasikas, and rupas. At any given time, any moment there is at least a citta. This again will be one of 89 cittas. So far 12 cittas have been discussed in the previous posts ( Dhamma Thread (001) to (035). All these 12 cittas are akusala cittas and these cittas can easily be understood as we are experiencing daily in our day to day life. Example is lobha citta or lobha mula citta. Lobha cittas may have different degrees from very subtle ones to the highly agitated lobha cittas. So do dosa cittas. Among thousands of millions of people in this world, the whole of which is just one plane of existence that is manussa bhumi or human realm, dosa cittas arise so frequently. Dosa has different forms. The whole world is searching for their food. Those who obtain enough food for them as they will think will have lobha cittas in connection with achievement of their wealth. Again, this might lead to stinginess which is associated with dosa. Feeling low or depression is just a manifestation of dosa and most people will have faced with such thing once or may even ever as they occur so frequently. Moha cittas on the other hand is a bit subtle as compared to lobha cittas and dosa cittas. But they still happen as frequently as lobha cittas and dosa cittas do. After going through 12 akusala cittas, on this Dhamma Thread, the next citta or 13th citta of 89 cittas is one of vipaka cittas. Cittas have been classified in different ways in the previous threads. They may be akusala or kusala or vipaka or kiriya. The 13th citta in its full name is.. Upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka cakkhuvinnana citta. This citta is one of vipaka cittas. It is a kama vipaka citta as it most frequently arises in kama bhumi even though it can also arise in rupa brahma bhumi. Vipaka cittas are resultant cittas. They have to arise because of past kamma or past action which might be akusala or kusala. This 13th citta is the result of bad action. So it is called akusala vipaka. Here is needed to be clear that vipaka citta is not akusala citta. But akusala vipaka citta is the result of past akusala citta. What does the 13th citta do? It knows sense impression at cakkhu pasada. It is knowledge of sight. It is knowledge of form. It is knowledge of ruparammana which is vanno or colour. It just knows colour nothing more than that. As accompaniments there are only 7 cetasikas arisen together with it. They are phassa or contact, vedana or feeling, cetana or volition, sanna or perception, ekaggata or one-pointedness, jivitindriya or mental life, and manasikara or attention. It can be roughly said that when we see something, at that time of seeing, there arise cakkhuvinnana citta. But when we notice that we see things there have been many cittas arisen not only cakkhuvinnana cittas but other cittas as well. Anyway, upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka cakkhuvinnana citta is the first gate to possible future akusala actions if not mindful and by the same token, it is also the first gate to possible vipassana nana arising. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35195 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 7:29am Subject: Re: past grasping cannot be removed? Dear Antony, Good to see all your posts recently:) I might not be the best person to ask about dealing with memories of women (especially beautiful ones). For one thing I'm divorced, for another my current girfriend is almost gorgeous. With that little warning I try: Samatha objects such as asubha are certainly very effective in reducing lust if they are done correctly. However, also there can be direct development of insight and for this even lust can be the object. Usually when there is a memory we are caught up in the content. But there can be awareness of the process of remembering, which is only a type of thinking. And this awareness is of the present moment. Thinking about the past doesn't have to stop for this to occur - what happens is that moments of insight interrupt the plunging into the concept (the beautiful woman) . Or there may be insight into the feeling that arises with the memory, or the lust underlying the memory. Or whatever other reality is present. These moments of insight won't neccessarily be so constant or strong to stop the memory or lust arising but what is more important is that there starts to be understanding of the thinking process, because this is leading to some erasement of the belief that "I" am thinking. Thinking is occuring because it is conditioned to occur, there is no me anywhere doing anything to make thinking stop or start. It sounds strange to say that there is no self making anything happen but really this is the most freeing understanding we can ever have. Then thinking won't disturb us much because it is not taken personally. Needless to say it takes time... RobK - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Rob K and all, > > Mahasi Sayadaw taught: > > "Why don't we meditate on things past or future? Because they > will not make you understand the real nature and cleanse you of > defilements. ........... Things of the more > recent past may be recalled. But, as you recall them, you think, > "I saw, I heard, I thought. It was I who saw at that time and it > is I who am seeing now." There is the "I" notion for you. There > can even be notions of permanence and happiness. So recalling > things past to meditate on do not serve our purpose. You have > already grasped them and this grasping cannot be removed. Although > you look on them as mind your preconceived > ideas. > http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/medbud/mahasifv.zip > > I would like to know how to deal with memories of a beautiful woman I met > once. > Is it too late to perceive her as unattractive with asubha practice? > > Thanks / Antony. > > 35196 From: matt roke Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 7:50am Subject: RE: [dsg] past grasping cannot be removed? Dear Antony, >Mahasi Sayadaw taught: >"Why don't we meditate on things past or future? Because they >will not make you understand the real nature and cleanse you of >defilements. ........... When sitting in meditation there are realities arising and falling away that create a concept of “me sitting in meditation” trying to do things or trying not to do things. There are realities arising and falling away at the rupa sense doors, such as sounds, smells and body sensations etc., and there are realities arising at the mind door, such as lobha, dosa and thinking etc. When the reality of thinking arises, the concept it creates may be of the present, of the past or of the future. It does not matter what the concept is, because the concept is not real. What is real is the thinking. When wisdom arises with the cita it will know those moments of thinking for the reality they are. When it does not arise then there is just the story, which conditions attachment and aversion and more thinking. Thinking that one should not have thoughts of the past or future is just another concept that arises with ideas about a self and a world, and without wisdom that knows the moments for the realities that they are. When these thoughts arise there can be conditions for wisdom to understand the real nature of the moment and when there is wisdom where are the defilements? >I would like to know how to deal with memories of a beautiful woman I met >once. Is it too late to perceive her as unattractive with asubha practice?. Memories of a beautiful woman are just more realities arising and falling away. There is the reality of thinking, the reality of lobha (finding her attractive and wanting to purge the thought) and maybe the reality of dosa (regret or guilt about having the thought). Changing the thought from one that is attractive to one that is unattractive is not wisdom. It is still just thinking accompanied by cetasikas that are unknown because of ignorance. Wisdom doesn’t discriminate as to whether a thought is about a pretty girl or an ugly corps, it just knows the reality of thinking for what it is. The thoughts of this girl can be a condition for knowing that what arises it is nama not rupa and for knowing the characturistics of lobha and dosa. MattR 35197 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 10:11am Subject: what I heard Dear friends, I listened to a discussion in Huahin with Khun Butsawong from Cambodia about sense-door and mind-door. I asked a Q. about thinking. I thought that when we are thinking we know what the mind-door is, but this is not so. A. Sujin explained that it is still "us" thinking. How deeply rooted is the belief in a self, we do not even notice it that there is an idea of self who thinks when we are thinking. The devlopment of understanding is necessary in order to know the extent of our clinging to the idea of self. The discussion was like this: