35200 From: connieparker Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 11:17am Subject: Re: anapanasati UPs - easier list to look at Thanks, Herman. Maybe Perry was as confused about citta as I am about breath? peace, connie > I reckon that old crooner Perry Como must have been lampooning when he > sang those immortal words: > "Catch a falling citta, and put it in your pocket, never let it fade > away" > See you around > Herman 35201 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 0:17pm Subject: the Battle Hi Howard, Howard wrote: N: What you wrote about a battle made me think of a sutta and especially the Co I wrote about in my Perseverance in Dhamma: ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, he said to the monks: ³Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man.² Further on we read: ³Wherefore, monks, thinking, ŒInvestigating, we will become wise,¹ this is how you must train yourselves, monks.² When this had been said, the venerable Ånanda spoke thus to the Lord: ³What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: ŒInvestigating, the monk is wise?¹ ² The Buddha then explained about the elements classified in different ways, about the sense-fields (åyatanas), the Dependent origination, the (causally) possible and impossible. When Ånanda asked him how the monk was skilled in the elements the Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We read: ³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ŒThe monk is skilled in the elements.¹ ² Now the Co, very interesting: I think there really is a danger in trying to combat only one kind of defilement we consider our weak point. We overlook that there may be conceit and I must add that I also have such conceit. I want to be perfect, I should not have such or such defilement, I am too good for it. Or we overlook dosa about the defilement, annoyance about ourselves, our shortcomings. In that way we would only be fixed on that one defilement we want to combat and then it may get worse and worse, paying too much attention to it. There are also seeing and hearing, and don't we take them for self? Or when we think this is our weak point, we overlook that all of us have all kinds of defilements so long as we have not attained enlightenment. I have my doubts about clenching teeth. I remember this in a sutta, but which one? It can pertain to a monk who would become a layperson when transgressing. I remember in Thailand people also referred to this sutta and were wondering about clenching teeth and what to do. No, vipassana is the best munition there is. I think people in general (perhaps you are not included here, not being inclined to much aversion as you said) should not make their lives complicated and worry so much about themselves. I know many do and I really feel sorry and concerned about this. Bhante Acharn Jose said something in this spirit. I think the Dhamma should make life lighter, not heavier. But this will do the trick, I quote from Rob K who speaks of a freeing understanding: Matt's post, very good, too long to quote all: I meant to split my last posts to you, too long, but it went wrong. Nina. 35202 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 036 ) Dear Htoo, Welcome back, I am glad you are back. Thanks for this. I never have enough Abhidhamma, even I read and write about it myself. And this is wonderful. It fits with our Visuddhimagga studies. We do the last: the two moha-mula-cittas, and then we come to vipakacittas. Good when people hear it at different angles. I like this one: . How true, and we should verify this. Htoo, I have piti and somanassa when reading your post, they just happen by conditions. Shall I still frwd my Tiika studies to you, or do you get it now on the dsg list? Nina. op 06-08-2004 15:17 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > There are 89 cittas in total in terms of characteristics. These > cittas have to arise in connection with other dhamma like cetasikas > and rupa dhamma. There is no atta or life or being in ultimate sense > but arising and falling away of these dhamma such as cittas, > cetasikas, and rupas. 35203 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Basic question ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! dear Connie and all! one slight correction!!! You CAN have a classical Physics concept of Action/Reaction similar at Abhidhamma! (connie , you are the best!) Think about the own Pali language structure encroached on All Dhammasangani, for example. You get even at matiika, stanza 3 3. Vipaakaa Dhamma Vipaakadhammadhammaa Nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa. one of the distinctive marks of Pali is the "clash" of opposities terms at one sentence ( mediated or not by sandhi rules...)... words and their contraries face-to-face,pushing on one each other, as the Third Newton Law of Dynamics. Good and Q.E.D... Abhidhamma is not a Collegial Science textbook for sure...but such Pali language remarks have got good renditions about modern science! Mettaya, Ícaro --- icaro franca wrote: > Hi Connie! > > > Not a correction. I just thought the reaction > might > > be vipaka? > > >------------------------------------------------------ ===== 35204 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta and spinach Hey Rob E., R > Thank you Eric. Your responses to these issues is clear and convincing to me. I appreciate the clarity and the obvious logic of what you say. E: You are welcome Rob and thanks for the kind words! R> A few "ditto" comments below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Jon, > > > E> Of course Jon. I am not saying it is for everyone. But you are > > saying it is for a select few i.e. only the Popeyes! > > J> Actually, not quite. I'm saying that although spinach is good for > everyone, it's not a must, unless you want to be a Popeye > (superhero). > > E> I just want to walk the path Jon. If it is good > for everyone, then what is the harm? I mean it > reduces bodily stress and mental stress. Also, > if it makes one a superhero, what is the harm > in recommending it to people in general? I don't see > what your aversion to it is, especially after you agreed > that it is good!! Now if it is a matter of 'personal' > taste, why didn't you just say so from the beginning?! R> I am sure that Jon's objection must not really be just a question of personal taste, but more principled. So I agree it would be good to bring out the principle upon which one would not want to recommend such practice as kusala for all. E: We'll see if he replies. But he is going to say what he said before. It was addressed to only auspicious monks and no lay people are mentioned. So, he does not have to put any effort into meditation, because it is beyond us lay people. I hear one of the hindrances talking when he says this and not the 'real' Jon! :-) > Jon > Sure, the Buddha praised samatha and the jhanas highly, but > the important question to be asked is whether he said that the > jhanas were necessary for the development of insight now (i.e., > insight of a presently arisen dhamma). I'd be interested to > hear your views on this. E>...I would say that it is a 8 fold path, > not a 1 fold, i.e. just SATI. So, Right Concentration is > defined as Jhana. Seems we can not get around this. R> I am anxious to see Jon's response to this. It appears to be very convincing, and if so, causes a problem for the path of "dry" insight [without jhana]. E: Yep!! I dont know who started all this dry insight stuff. I know Ven. Bodhi talks about it but my guess is it started before him. Maybe the scholars could give us a date and who started it. E> Specifically to your question. IMHO and experience, if > the mind is not calm and concentrated, insight will not > arise. I am speaking very practicaly here Jon. Concentration > must be able to hold or encompass 'feeling', if it cannot > then Dependent Origination moves like a lightning bolt. > The mind must be still for it to hold or see the present > arisen dhamma within a frame of reference. If not, you get > 'monkey mind' with much discursive thought. Again, this > is my experience. R> This is a wonderful description, and gives as good a description of the relationship of concentration to insight as I have seen. Thank you. E: You are welcome Rob. E> This is why I asked you where is > intellectual panna in the seven factors of awakening? R> Yes, an interesting question. E: Maybe some of the scholars would like to say something here too. Don't want to give the impression we are trying to beat up on Jon's views! Although he is probably scrambling to say something in this regards. I have asked him twice now with no answer. I guess 3 times may be a charm! PEACE E 35205 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 1:11pm Subject: Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hey Ken & Rob, > RobEp wrote: > > ------------ > > I agree with you again Eric, and find your clarity very helpful. I would just add, per Ken's last comment above, that reading is also a conventional, commonplace activity. > > ------------ > K> Yes, and as I was saying to Eric, if you think a conventional, > commonplace activity (any activity known to other philosophies) is > instrumental in the way to enlightenment, then I'll be only too > happy to set you straight. :-) Are you enlightened Ken? If you are not, then how are you going to set us straight when you don't "know" what straight is? :-) PEACE E 35206 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 1:38pm Subject: Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hey Ken, K> I was talking about formal sitting meditation and the leg and back > pain that can accompany it. You wrote: > ------------- > > E: Well then you would have confirmed the > > 1st and 2nd truths and also that there is no > > permanent happiness to be found in the body > > or vedana! > > > -------------- K> I wonder what you mean by that. Needless to say, the four great > truths are indeed great -- as in profound. The mere experience of > pain does confirm that pain exists, but I don't see how it confirms > anything profound. And I don't see how it confirms that the cause > of dukkha is desire (tanha). E: I meant that you could not release from aversion of the dukkha vedana. If you could have, you would not have had to sit in pain. So, we therefore have #1) pain & #2) aversion. If you could have developed piti you would have had #3) the way to Nibbana also. > ---------- > E: > > > Check out A. Boowa's story. He started sitting > > all night long. He says that a pain ensues that > > effects every cell of the body. He says that normal > > dukkha vedana is like a cat compared to an elephant > > in regards to this pain. He says he conquered it and > > even the pain of death will not be greater than > > the pain he felt while sitting. He also got rid of > > all his fears during this time. > > > --------- K> Yes, sitting cross-legged for a long time can be extremely painful. In the altered states of consciousness induced by meditation, that pain can be magnified even more. I have a reduced range of movement in my right leg from having broken a femur. At the Goenka course, the intense pain I experienced in that leg brought vivid recollections of the car smash in which it happened twenty-four years earlier. E: Ouch! K> But those gee-wiz experiences don't interest me: they have nothing to do with the Buddha's teaching. I don't know who A. Boowa is, but I have no doubt he is fooling himself and anyone unwise enough to listen to him. E: ...You can tell the mind states of others from whom you have never met and never heard or read a thing?! Seems you don't have to point a finger too far away at anyone else to find delusion! For those of you who are interested in a modern day meditation masters words of advice.... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/#boowa PEACE E 35207 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Dearest Michael, It is nice to hear from you in the DSG! Thank you for sending this great Sutta. I hope all our friends from the group may get inspired by the Buddha's own words and keep walking in the Noble Path pointed by the Noble One. Metta, Gabriel Laera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Beisert" To: "dhammastudygroup" Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 11:18 AM Subject: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma Hello DSGers, Guess who is back. But only for a short while I am afraid. I will soon leave you again. I am back about a week now, lurking in the list to see how much has changed, and guess what? Ça plus change, ça plus la meme chose, I can see that many are tightly holding on to their same old ideas. And right now some are probably licking their wounds from recent, but same old, same old, discussions. But anyway this is not the reason I am writing. When I left the list a while back I had some private exchanges with Sarah and promised her that I would be back to post a sutta which very much reminds me of the discussions in this list, and in many other similar lists for that matter. I hope you enjoy it. Here goes the sutta: Metta Michael Mahagosinga Sutta - MN 32 1. THUS HAVE I HEARD. On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Park of the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood together with a number of very well-known elder disciples -the venerable Sariputta, the venerable Maha Moggallana, the venerable Maha Kassapa, the venerable Anuruddha, the venerable Revata, the venerable Ananda, and other very well-known elder disciples. 2. Then, when it was evening, the venerable Maha Moggallana rose from meditation, went to the venerable Maha Kassapa, and said to him: "Friend Kassapa, let us go to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma." -"Yes, friend," the venerable Maha Kassapa replied. Then the venerable Maha Moggallana, the venerable Maha Kassapa, and the venerable Anuruddha went to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma. 3. The venerable Ananda saw them going to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma. Thereupon he went to the venerable Revata and said to him: "Friend Revata, those true men are going to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma. Let us also go to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma." -"Yes, friend," the venerable Revata replied. Then the venerable Revata and the venerable Ananda went to the venerable Sariputta to listen to the Dhamma. 4. The venerable Sariputta saw the venerable Revata and the venerable Ananda coming in the distance and said to the venerable Ananda: "Let the venerable Ananda come, welcome to the venerable Ananda, the Blessed One's attendant, who is always in the Blessed One's presence. Friend Ananda, the Gosinga Sala- tree Wood is delightful, the night is moonlit, the sala trees are all in blossom, and heavenly scents seem to be floating in the air. What kind of bhikkhu, friend Ananda, could illuminate the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu has learned much, remembers what he has learned, and consolidates what he has learned. Such teachings as are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, and which affirm a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure -such teachings as these he has learned much of, remembered, mastered verbally, investigated with the mind, and penetrated well by view. And he teaches the Dhamma to the four assemblies with well-rounded and coherent statements and phrases for the eradication of the underlying tendencies.357 That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 5. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta addressed the venerable Revata thus: "Friend Revata, the venerable Ananda has spoken according to his own inspiration.358 Now we ask the venerable Revata: Friend Revata, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful, the night is moonlit, the sala trees are all in blossom, and heavenly scents seem to be floating in the air. What kind of bhikkhu, friend Revata, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu delights in solitary meditation and takes delight in solitary meditation; he is devoted to internal serenity of mind, does not neglect meditation, possesses insight, and dwells in empty huts.359 That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 6. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta addressed the venerable Anuruddha thus: "Friend Anuruddha, the venerable Revata has spoken according to his own inspiration. Now we ask the venerable Anuruddha: Friend Anuruddha, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful...What kind of bhikkhu, friend Anuruddha, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, a bhikkhu surveys a thousand worlds. Just as a man with good sight, when he has ascended to the upper palace chamber, might survey a thousand wheel-rims, so too, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, a bhikkhu surveys a thousand worlds.360 That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 7. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta addressed the venerable Maha Kassapa thus: "Friend Kassapa, the venerable Anuruddha has spoken according to his own inspiration. Now we ask the venerable Maha Kassapa: Friend Kassapa, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful... What kind of bhikkhu, friend Kassapa, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu is a forest dweller himself and speaks in praise of forest dwelling; he is an almsfood eater himself and speaks in praise of eating almsfood; he is a refuse-rag wearer himself and speaks in praise of wearing refuse-rag robes; he is a triple-robe wearer himself and speaks in praise of wearing the triple robe;361 he has few wishes himself and speaks in praise of fewness of wishes; he is content himself and speaks in praise of contentment; he is secluded himself and speaks in praise of seclusion; he is aloof from society himself and speaks in praise of aloofness from society; he is energetic himself and speaks in praise of arousing energy; he has attained to virtue himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of virtue; he has attained to concentration himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of concentration; he has attained to wisdom himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of wisdom; he has attained to deliverance himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of deliverance; he has attained to the knowledge and vision of deliverance himself and speaks in praise of the attain- ment of the knowledge and vision of deliverance. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 8. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta addressed the venerable Maha Moggallana thus: "Friend Moggallana, the venerable Maha Kassapa has spoken according to his own inspiration. Now we ask the venerable Maha Moggallana: Friend Moggallana, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful...What kind of bhikkhu, friend Moggallana, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma362 and they question each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." 9. When this was said, the venerable Maha Moggallana addressed the venerable Sariputta thus: "Friend Sariputta, we have all spoken according to our own inspiration. Now we ask the venerable Sariputta: Friend Sariputta, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful, the night is moonlit, the sala trees are all inblossom, and heavenly scents seem to be floating in the air. What kind of bhikkhu, friend Sariputta, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?" "Here, friend Moggallana, a bhikkhu wields mastery over his mind, he does not let the mind wield mastery over him. In the morning he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the morning; at mid-day he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in at mid-day; in the evening he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the evening. Suppose a king or a king's minister had a chest full of variously coloured garments. In the morning he could put on whatever pair of garments he wanted to put on in the morning; at mid-day he could put on whatever pair of garments he wanted to put on at mid-day; in the evening he could put on whatever pair of garments he wanted to put on in the evening. So too, a bhikkhu wields mastery over his mind, he does not let the mind wield mastery over him. In the morning...at mid-day...in the evening he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the evening. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood:" 10. Then the venerable Sariputta addressed those venerable ones thus: "Friends, we have all spoken according to our own inspiration. Let us go to the Blessed One and report this matter to him. As the Blessed One answers, so let us remember it." - "Yes, friend,." they replied. Then those venerable ones went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, they sat down at one side. The venerable Sariputta said to the Blessed One: 11. "Venerable sir, the venerable Revata and the venerable Ananda came to me to listen to the Dhamma. I saw them coming in the distance and said to the venerable Ananda: 'Let the venerable Ananda come, welcome to the venerable Ananda...Friend Ananda, the Gosinga Sala-tree Wood is delightful... What kind of bhikkhu, friend Ananda, could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?' When asked, venerable sir, the venerable Ananda replied: 'Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu has learned much...(as in §4)... That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, Sariputta. Ananda, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Ananda has learned much, remembers what he has learned, and consolidates what he has learned.Such teachings as are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, and which affirm a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure -such teachings as these he has learned much of, remembered, mastered verbally, investigated with the mind, and penetrated well by view. And he teaches the Dhamrna to the four assemblies with well-rounded and coherent statements and phrases for the eradication of the underlying tendencies." 12. "When this was said, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Revata thus: 'Friend Revata... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sa la-tree Wood?' And the venerable Revata replied: 'Here, friend Sariputta, a bhikkhu delights in solitary meditation... (as in §5)... That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, sariputta. Revata, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Revata delights in solitary meditation, takes delight in solitary meditation, is devoted to internal seren- ity of mind, does not neglect meditation, possesses insight, and dwells in empty huts." 13. "When that was said, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Anuruddha thus: 'Friend Anuruddha... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga sala-tree Wood?' And the venerable Anuruddha replied: 'Here, friend Sariputta, with the divine eye...(as in §6)...That kind of bhikkhu could illumi- nate this Gosinga sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, sariputta. Anuruddha, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, Anuruddha surveys a thou- sand worlds." 14. "When this was said, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Maha Kassapa thus: 'Friend Kassapa... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?' And the venerable Maha Kassapa replied: 'Here, friend sariputta, a bhikkhu is a forest-dweller himself...(as in §7)... That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, sariputta. Kassapa, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Kassapa is a forest-dweller himself and speaks in praise of forest dwelling.. .he has attained to the knowl- edge and vision of deliverance himself and speaks in praise of the attainment of the knowledge and vision of deliverance." 15. "When this was said, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Maha Moggallana thus: 'Friend Moggallana... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?' And the venerable Maha Moggallana replied: 'Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma...(as in §8)... That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala- tree Wood.'" "Good, good, Sariputta. Moggallana, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Moggallana is one who talks on the Dhamma." 16. When that was said, the venerable Maha Moggallana told the Blessed One: "Then, venerable sir, I addressed the venerable Sariputta thus: 'Friend Sariputta... What kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood?' And the venerable Sariputta replied: 'Here, friend Moggallana, a bhikkhu wields mastery over his mind (as in §9)...That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood.'" "Good, good, Moggallana. Sariputta, speaking rightly, should speak just as he did. For Sariputta wields mastery over his mind, he does not let the mind wield mastery over him. In the morning he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the morning; at mid-day he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in at mid-day; in the evening he abides in whatever abiding or attainment he wants to abide in during the evening." 17. When this was said, the venerable Sariputta asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, which of us has spoken well?" "You have all spoken well, Sariputta, each in his own way. Hear also from me what kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood. Here, Sariputta, when a bhikkhu has returned from his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, folds his legs crosswise, sets his body erect, and establisrung mindfulness in front of him, resolves: 'I shall not break this sitting position until through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints.' That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sala- tree Wood."363 That is what the Blessed One said. Those venerable ones were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. Notes: 357 The four assemblies are those of bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, men lay followers, and women lay followers. The seven underlying tendencies are enumerated at MN 18.8. Ven. Ananda was declared by the Buddha to be the pre-eminent disciple among those who had learned much, and his discourses are said to have delighted the four assemblies (DN 16.5.16/ii.145). 358 Yatha sakam patibhanam. This phrase might also be rendered "according to his own intuition" or "according to his own ideal." Nm renders ''as it occurs to him"; Homer, "according to his own capacity." 359 Ven. Revata was declared the pre-eminent disciple among those who are meditators. 360 Ven. Anuruddha was the pre-eminent disciple among those who possessed the divine eye. 361 Maha Kassapa was the pre-eminent disciple among those who observed the ascetic practices. 362 Abhidhamma. Though the word cannot refer here to the Pitaka of that name -obviously the product of a phase of Buddhist thought later than the Nikayas -it may well indicate a systematic and analytical approach to the doctrine that served as the original nucleus of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In a careful study of the contexts in which the word" Abhidhamma" occurs in the Sutta Pitakas of several early recensions, the Japanese Pali scholar Fumimaro Watanabe concludes that the Buddha's own disciples formed the conception of Abhidhamma as an elementary philosophical study that attempted to define, analyse, and classify dhammas and to explore their mutual relations. See his Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, pp. 34-36. 363 While the replies of the disciples hold up as the ideal a bhikkhu who has already achieved proficiency in a particular sphere of the renunciant life, the Buddha's reply, by focusing on a bhikkhu still striving for the goal, underscores the ultimate purpose of that life itself. Source: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, translated by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli and Bhikkhu Boddhi. 35208 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 036 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, Welcome back, I am glad you are back. Thanks for this. I never have ....Good when people hear it at different angles. Shall I still frwd my Tiika studies to you, or do you get it now on the dsg list? Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your encouragement. I am also still learning Dhamma. Anyway I try to share Dhamma at all cost. Regarding your Tiika studies posts, I prefer your forwarding if you have time to do so. Thanks in advance. Htoo Naing 35209 From: Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] the Battle Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/6/04 3:36:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > I have my doubts about clenching teeth. I remember this in a sutta, but > which one? It can pertain to a monk who would become a layperson when > transgressing. I remember in Thailand people also referred to this sutta and > were wondering about clenching teeth and what to do. No, vipassana is the > best munition there is. I think people in general (perhaps you are not > included here, not being inclined to much aversion as you said) should not > make their lives complicated and worry so much about themselves. I know many > do and I really feel sorry and concerned about this. ========================== I had mentioned the "teeth clenching" approach as a last resort, and that is how the Buddha presented it. The following is the sutta, addressed to monks. With metta, Howard __________________________ Vitakka-Santhana Sutta; Majjhima Nikaya No. 20 The Removal of Distracting Thoughts Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Pleasance. The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying, "Bhikkhus," and they replied to him saying, "Reverend Sir". The Blessed One spoke as follows: "Five things should be reflected on from time to time, by the bhikkhu who is intent on the higher consciousness. What five? When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Like an experienced carpenter or carpenter's apprentice, striking hard at, pushing out, and getting rid of a coarse peg with a fine one, should the bhikkhu in order to get rid of the adventitious object, reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). If the evil unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu, who in order to get rid of an adventitious object reflects on a different object which is connected with skill, he should ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Like a well-dressed young man or woman who feels horrified, humiliated and disgusted because of the carcass of a snake, dog, or human that is hung round his or her neck, should the bhikkhu in whom unskillful thoughts continue to arise in spite of his reflection on the object which is connected with skill, ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Like a keen-eyed man shutting his eyes and looking away from some direction in order to avoid seeing visible objects come within sight, should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in spite of his pondering on their disadvantageousness, endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards them. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his reflection on the removal of a source of unskillful thoughts, he should with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Like a strong man holding a weaker man by the head or shoulders and restraining, subduing and beating him down, should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in spite of his reflection on the source of unskillful thoughts, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind, with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). When, indeed, bhikkhus, evil unskillful thoughts due to reflection on an adventitious object are eliminated, when they disappear, and the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated just within (his subject of meditation), through his reflection on an object connected with skill, through his pondering on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts, his endeavoring to be without attentiveness and reflection as regards those thoughts or through his restraining, subduing, and beating down of the evil mind by the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate, that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering." The Blessed One said this, and the bhikkhus glad at heart, approved of his words. ----------------------------------------------------- /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35210 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 4:16pm Subject: Re: Practicing the Dhamma Hi Eric, Thanks for keeping your sense of humour. ---------- > E: ...You can tell the mind states > of others from whom you have never met and never > heard or read a thing?! Seems you don't > have to point a finger too far away at anyone > else to find delusion! > > For those of you who are interested in a modern > day meditation masters words of advice.... > > ----------- KH: Woops, I should have remembered that A. stands for Acharn (teacher): apologies to all concerned. Even so, I don't withdraw my criticisms of the site, Access to Insight, to which you have again referred me. And if A. Boowa is an adherent of the Thanissaro Bhikkhu school of thought, then I don't withdraw my criticism of him either. I genuinely cringe at the patronising, paternalistic behaviour of some of my fellow Westerners. How could anyone have the audacity to take the religions (or in this case, the philosophies) of his Eastern neighbours, change them around and then give them back -- "Here you are, this is what your Buddha meant to say"? Kind regards, Ken H 35211 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 5:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment Hi RobK, Thanks for your post. It was very clear. After reading and rereading it a number of times I found nothing on which I got stuck or stumbled over. Thank you. Is it safe to assume that because there was nothing about paramattha as irreducible, and quite some detail about the enormous complexity of each moment, that irreducibility is not a quality that needs to be known? Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2004 12:38 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > You quoted/wrote: > > The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 Notes that > there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no > single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there > a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from > multiple causes. > > > ============================== > Given the above, how can any reality be known as being irreducible? > (paramattha dhamma) > > Herman Dear Herman, Nice to hear about your new property. In Thailand even the forest temples seem to be within walking distance of a village (which of course the monks need for alms round). But Auss. has true wilderness.In the early nineties I spent a couple of days at a forest temple where phra Khantipalo lived- a couple of hours west of sydney. Just getting there was an adventure! I have memories of snakes and large lizards and strange birds (maybe kookaburras?) . Now I try to answer your question. When a scientist sees a table he doesn"t stop there and say - "it's so obvious this is a table , what else is to be known." He breaks it down into its component parts - the elements, oxygen, carbon.....He knows each element conditions the other elemenst present in the different moleculr structurrs but he also looks into each element separately. He goes further , finds out about neutrons and electrons and further to quarks and on. Finding nothing substanial. He knows there really is no solid table - but the knowing is still only conceptual, it won't lead to detachment. The same for the one who only reads abhidhamma. In the beginning of insighting paramattha dhammas (dhatus, ayatanas, khandas), what is gradually apparent is the nature of the element that is contacted- so rupa is different from nama. Hardness is differnt from heat. Pleasant feeling is different from unpleasant ... But because it is panna, not self, that is doing the insighting there is also some understanding of the conditioned nature of each element. This doesn't have to be in words - it can be knowing without conceptualising. So gradually the different conditions that conditioned the paramttha dhamma are known. According to the visuddhimagga, at a certain level of insight the conditioned nature of dhammas becomes very clear - and then there is no more doubt that each moment has to be conditioned. And this is so profound that one has no doubt about past and future lives - one sees this moment is just like every moment. It would be like douting whether gravity will keep working. And all from deepening insight into the moment. Also each moment is unique. So while pleasant feeling is pleasant feeling whether it happens today or tommorow or last life no two plesant moments are identical. That is because so many different conditioning factors work simultaneously to condition each moment. Again we should not think of paramattha dhammas as some sort of solid "atom". Time itself can only be understood by the arising and falling away of the elements- and because they are present for an infinitisimly short time what is insighted is almost a trace of what they left behind. So the teaching in the Abhidhamma can only point to what is real and explain it as clearly as words allow but actual panna doesn't need any thinking (in words) because it percieves reality directly. Nevertheless the words help a great deal, they help factors such as saddha to grow. And these various factors support direct insight and make it strong. Another point is that while one element may be apparent any moment there are other elements co-existing. So hardness may be the factor that shows itself but also feeling is there too (and maybe the next moment it is feeling that will be apparent). Usually the many different elements are not seen as they are but instead a shadow world is seen , where they are all mixed up is, much as a non-scientist thinks about a table. One can't merely focus on the elements and expect to see this. It needs the right tools - not simply the desire to see. For the table scientist he has to invent many different subtle machines to assist his investaigation. For the insight worker it is the various mental factors (the 37 Bojjhanga) that lead to enlightenment that work their way (not I, not me). I think this post has gone around your question rather than answered it directly so please ask again and I will retry. Robert 35212 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 6:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Hi Sarah, Always glad to hear from you. .... S: Most Asian languages don't insist on a verb in each sentence like English;-) H: It's mind boggling how much I don't know. This, and what followed, is very interesting. I did snip it, though :-) > Seeing as *we* use the same word, wouldn't it be reasonable to infer > that the mode of being of namas and rupas is regarded as the same as the > mode of being of concepts? .... S: Only linguistically speaking. Would it be reasonable to infer that purple flying elephants and unpleasant feelings, say, have the 'same mode of being' in anything other than linguistic terms if we happen to use the verb 'to be' to refer to them? H: Lately I've been reading lots of very interesting suttas replete with devas, gods, yakkas and the like. Clearly, if a person talks with one of these beings, or cowers in fear of one, or gets clobbered by one, their mode of being is on the same level as an unpleasant feeling. A person who walks around the street in a stooped posture may well be avoiding low-flying purple elephants. So I must conclude that it is quite reasonable in a Buddhist context to say that anything experienced is real, and is therefore to be described using the same words. .... > Also, say one has totally osmosed the prescribed reductionist way of > thinking, and there is only understanding in terms of elements. There is > no more thinking in terms of self. ... S: Let's refine that and say 'there is no more WRONG thinking in terms of self. To prescribe that there should or is no more thinking of any kind about oneself or others would definitely be erroneous. .... H: Glad to hear it !! :-) >Will that, to your understanding, > change the reality of dukkha in the slightest? How is "just dukkha" an > improvement on "just my dukkha"? ... S: The reality of dukkha in its deepest sense as characteristic of all conditioned realities remains as it's always been. Understanding realities which are anicca and dukkha as also not 'my' dukkha leads to detachment from whatever arises. And the goal of developed understanding is such detachment and thereby 'overcoming' of dukkha. While it's 'my dukkha', there can never be insight into the elements and detachment from the erroneous view of self, the most weighty of the defilements. H: Isn't overcoming dukkha completed by the complete cessation of citta and cetasika? Which of course entails the end of all lovingkindness, compassion, sympathy, equanimity and understanding as well. Have a great weekend Herman 35213 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 6:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti/pattipatti Hi Sukin, The thought occurred to me that there is disagreement because there is studying of different objects, while thinking they are the same or somehow related. It appears that you are treating of Buddhism as what is taught in the Abhidhamma and by Buddhagosa. And I take Buddhism as what is consistently taught in the suttas. And when a consistent red thread in the suttas turns to green in a later work, then the thread is neither red nor green, is it? Keeping this in mind will make it unnecessary and even foolish to disagree with you, because we are never talking about the same thing, even though the same word is used to describe it. It must be great being able to believe from time to time that those children are not real :-) Have a great time with Num and RobK Cheers Herman -----Original Message----- From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula [mailto:sukinder@k...] Sent: Friday, 6 August 2004 5:30 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti/pattipatti Hi Robert and All, Some thoughts I would like to express. 35214 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 7:14pm Subject: Sound, hearing and meaning Hi Nina, (anyone is free to reply of course), I am asking you because your are the Abhidhammika of choice :-) >Dear Rob Ep, >I am always glad you pop in, I like your posts. >I quote now and then from MP3 I listen to. I am very interested to read how Abhidhamma treats "meaning". You listen to MP3. There is sound, there is hearing. Then there is meaning. If you listened to a tape in Swahili, there would be sound, there would be hearing. But no understanding, no meaning. Understanding of the meaning of the spoken word dog can come from billions of different permutations of sound. It doesn't matter what the pitch, volume, timbre of sound, how quickly or slowly it is said, there is an almost infinite array of sound which will create the distinct meaning dog. And it wouldn't matter if scattered microseconds were edited from the MP3, there would still arise the meaning dog. Now the meaning of the word dog is totally unrelated to the sound that gave rise to the understanding. The meaning of dog does not somehow dwell in its constituent parts. Studying the spoken d, then studying the spoken o, then g does not lead to the meaning of dog. Does the abhidhamma teach that only the individual rupa of sound that lead to hearing "dog" are real, and that hearing the individual rupa is real, but that the aggregation of all that is not real? And what if I get bitten by one? :-) Kind Regards En groeten aan Lodewijk Herman 35215 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 7:16pm Subject: Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hi Eric, ---------- KH: > > as I was saying to Eric, if you think a conventional, > commonplace activity (any activity known to other philosophies) is > instrumental in the way to enlightenment, then I'll be only too > happy to set you straight. :-) > > ---------- E: > Are you enlightened Ken? If you are not, then how are you going to set us straight when you don't "know" what straight is? :-) > ------------------- KH: Point taken. :-) Did you read the rest of my message? Do you agree it would be good to understand what the Buddha taught rather than to rush ahead and practise something he might not have taught? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Ken & Rob, > > > > RobEp wrote: > > > > ------------ > > > I agree with you again Eric, and find your clarity very helpful. > I would just add, per Ken's last comment above, that reading is also > a conventional, commonplace activity. > > > ------------ > > > K> Yes, and 35216 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 7:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hi KenH, By a coming together of conditions I was just online when this post came in, and now by a ripening of kamma, I am replying :-) KH: Point taken. :-) Did you read the rest of my message? Do you agree it would be good to understand what the Buddha taught rather than to rush ahead and practise something he might not have taught? HH: I have never seen the slightest indication from you to suggest that you are even able to vary from the belief that the views you currently hold dear are exactly and only what the Buddha taught. (Don't take that as criticism, it is merely an observation.:-)) The fear that conditions faith, and the faith that conditions fear can be known, faced upto, conquered and discarded. Again descriptive, not prescriptive :-)) How's the surf today ? You wouldn't catch me dead in the ocean. Too scared :-) Kind Regards Herman 35217 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 3:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 037 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 89 cittas, 13 cittas have been discussed in the previous posts. The 14th citta in its full name is.. ''Upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka sotavinnana citta''. Its implications are the same as cakkhuvinnana citta with the exception of knowledge of sound. The 14th citta is sound-consciousness and it particularly knows sound at ear. Its feeling is just upekkha and not somanassa or happiness not domanassa or sadness or aggressiveness. It is a kind of vipaka citta or a resultant consciousness due to past bad action.Sotavinnana particularly knows sound-object and no other citta knows sound as sotavinnana citta does. The 15th citta is ''upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka ghanavinnana citta''. It is a vipaka citta. Resultant consciousness. It knows smell at nose. Knowledge of smell is its characteristic and no other citta can take the position of ghanavinnana citta. Ghanavinnana citta only knows smell and just knows smell. Nothing more than that. The 16th citta is ''upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka jivhavinnana citta''. Again this citta is also a resultant consciousness arisen as dictated by past kamma when bad action had been done at some time in the past. Jivhavinnana citta knows taste and no other citta can know the sense of taste and this is the characteristic of jivhavinnana citta. The 17th citta is ''dukkha sahagatam akusala vipaka kayavinnana citta''. What is conspicuous here is that this citta is accompanied by dukkha unlike other 4 akusala vinnana cittas mentioned above. While cakkhuvinnana citta, sotavinnana citta, ghanavinnana citta, and jivhavinnana citta are accompanied by upekkha vedana, akusala vipaka kayavinana citta is always accompanied by dukkha vedana. This citta knows the sensation of touch which may be pathavi or solidity or hardness-softness or the texture of rupa, tejo or temperature, and vayo or resilency or supportiveness of rupa. The 18th citta is ''upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka sampaticchana citta''. Sam means 'well','rightly', 'truely' and paticchana means 'to receive'. This citta just receives the object sensed by pancavinnana cittas. It is like a relayed centre and just receives the message without ever realising detailed knowledge of the object but just transfers the object to the other citta as soon as it receives the message. It is one of three manodhatu. The 19th citta is ''upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka santirana citta''. Santirana means investigating appropriately. While sampaticchana citta just receives the message, santirana citta does investigation by characterising the data received from sampaticchana citta. Sampaticchana receives a box of painting materials. Santirana opens the box and sees painting materials but it does not decide anything. So far 12 akusala cittas and 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas have been explained. The last 7 cittas are called ahetuka cittas because there is none of lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha hetus. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35218 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practicing the Dhamma hi Gabriel! I´ve tried send to you some files I got about Pali Language, but the post returned back. Is the laeragabriel@y... your correct E- mail ? I will send it by zopatenzin@h... instead! Mettaya, Ícaro 35219 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Dear Gabriel, --- Gabriel Nunes Laera wrote: > Dearest Friends, > > Do anyone know any website where I can find some basic understanding > concepts on Abhidhamma? .... S: Besides asking some basic questions here (most welcome!), pls also look at the following: Abhidhamma for beginners in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Abhidhamma - Beginners corner/Qus http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Intro to Abhidhamma - Rob M’s Speaker Notes in Files http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup Buddhism in Daily Life/Abhidhamma in Daily Life http://www.vipassana.info/ or http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... > There are some doubts which I would love to solve about understanding > Abhidhamma: > > What would be action and reaction proccess called in the abhidhamma > thought? > Is it kamma just the pali name for action?What would be the pali name > for > reaction? ... S: Good questions. Please keep asking them, no matter how basic. As Connie said, the result of kamma is vipaka. Also see ‘Kamma & Vipaka’ in U.P. for more or ask for further details: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Perhaps we can also encourage Connie to say more??? If possible, try to read Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’, but I recommend going slowly, considering and asking us lots of questions. ..... > Anyway, all I need is something like "Abhidhamma for Dummies" ! I hope > you > can help me with it... ..... S: Let us know how you go with these recommendations. I would suggest looking at some of these before taking the plunge with the text Icaro recommended - his idea of basics is a little unusual, after all he just took the plunge with the Dhammasangani in Pali and is very comfortable in the deep end;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 35220 From: jonoabb Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Eric Regarding your comments in a recent post to Rob Ep, I might be slow, but I usually get around to answering all questions put to me eventually ;-)) > J : ... See the > passages copied below from the beginning and end of the Satipatthana > Sutta. > > E: You really do hold your books close to your chest now dont you?! The word of the Master, in whatever form or medium, is where my interest lies ;-)) > From the Anapanasati Sutta: > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so > as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? " > Then the Buddha goes on and says how. > > So, he is equating Anapanasati to Satipatthana in that Anapanasati > CULMINATES Satipatthana. Not as I see it. I think what is being discussed here is how a person who is developing anapanasati can *also* develop satipatthana at the highest levels. Rather than equating the two, he is explaining how the two can be developed in tandem (quite a different matter). Now I agree that this is a matter of interpretation, but if you look again at the passage you'll see that your interpretation is by no means the only one open. (I'll come back to this later on. For the moment I'll just characterize your interpretation of the passage as 'anapanasati leads to satipatthana' and mine as 'satipatthana for the anapanasati devotee'). > E: You did not answer my quesition. Where is jhana mentioned in the > Anapanasati Sutta? As you seem to be saying you are incapable of > jhana so the sutta does not apply to you. No, I'm not really saying that. But first, let me explain that the reference to jhana is not my own but is the generally understood interpretation of the sutta based, I believe, on the commentaries. For example, Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' has the following under 'anapanasati': "The first three [tetrads] apply to both tranquillity (samatha) and insight-meditation, while the fourth refers to pure insight practice only. The second and the third group require the attainment of the absorptions." If you know of a different interpretation, I'd be happy to consider it. However, the main reason I see the sutta as applying to those much more highly developed than I can be found in the introductory part of the sutta that precedes the passage you have quoted above. First, there is a list of monks present and their attainments, the very least of whom are monks who are "devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing", which I take to mean already skilled in anapanasati. Secondly, in explaining just how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is 'developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination', the sutta says: [17] "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." As I read it, this is a description of a monk who lives a forest lifestyle and has well developed anapanasati and satipatthana. Now this may describe you, Eric, but it certainly doesn't describe me ;-)). > Regarding who it is addressed to. My take on it is that it was > addressed to a lot of monks with varying abilities and some heavy > weight teachers. That the Buddha instructed ALL of them in > Anapanasati (teachers and students alike) shows how important this > sutta is to a wide range of people with varrying abilities. That > there is no specific mention to lay people does not mean much. It > was at night in the monastery. So, all the lay people were probably > at their own homes (there were no street lamps then you know). Most > of the meetings and teachings with lay people happened while the sun > was up after a lunch offering. What is the big deal!? What you are > deducing from the omission is a stretch at best. Besides, he was > instructing or at least telling all the teachers how important > Anapanasati is. Who do you think taught all the lay people? They did > not have nice bound books with commentaries back then you know. Hmm. A few assumptions being made here ;-)) Actually, the question of who was present at the time can be easily settled. According to the sutta itself, the monks present were: [8] "monks who are Arahants ... [9] "monks who [are non-returners] [10] "monks who [are once-returners] [11] "monks who [are sotapannas] [12] "monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path ... [13] "monks who remain devoted to the development of [the 4 Brahma-viharas] ... [the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy ..., and finally, [14] "monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing". As far as I know, this is an exhaustive list of those present. And as to the quality of the gathering, that too is mentioned in the sutta. Just before reciting the qualifications of the assembly the Buddha said: [7] "Monks, this assembly ... is established on pure heartwood ... The sort of assembly that it is rare to see in the world ... the sort of assembly that it would be worth travelling for leagues, taking along provisions, in order to see." Now should we be surprised to find that the teaching given to such an assembly on an occasion like this is not a teaching that is directly applicable to beginner lay-folk? I think not. I return now to the earlier discussion on the meaning of that much quoted passage: [15] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination ... Of those present, who in particular stands to benefit from being told this? Certainly not the arahants or other enlightened beings. Nor those who 'remain devoted to' (i.e., are already firmly established in) the development of the four frames of reference, since they are already well on the way. Nor, as far as one can tell, those firmly established in samatha with the 4 brahma-viharas etc as object. It seems likely to me that the Buddha's words were spoken mainly for the benefit of the last group (they also being of the least overall attainment among those present). But since they are already firmly established in mindfulness of in-&-out breathing (anapanasati), the instruction he is to give will not be an instruction on anapanasati per se, and certainly not for beginners, but will show how insight can be developed at the same time as anapanasati is being pursued and the jhanas are being attained. This instruction is necessary because insight (and enlightenment) consciousness cannot co-occur with jhana consciousness. > E: So, if I remember correctly from a recent post, > you were criticising someone for forming an opinion about the > abhidhamma when they had not even read it and now you have your own > opinions about Anapanasati without ever practicing it. Do you think > that is fair and proper? Well, better to learn about what anapanasati is or isn't (as referred to in the texts) without having practised it, than to jump into the practice of anapanasati without having first understood from the texts what it is, don't you think? ;-)) In any event, I've never said I'm not interested in anapanasati. What I have said is that I see the Anapanasati Sutta as having as its starting point a level of attainment that I cannot reasonably expect to achieve in this lifetime. However, there's lots to know about anapanasati other than what's in that sutta, and I'd be very happy to discuss it. (Let's start at the beginning with a definition of terms. Are you OK with 'samatha with breath as object' as a definition of 'anapanasati'?) Let me say again (yet again ;-)) that the Buddha encouraged the development of *all* kinds of kusala, *including* samatha (a very high level of kusala) and *including* samatha with breath as object, so anapanasati is something I'm very interested in. I just don't agree that the Anapanasati Sutta is the place to begin on this. Hope I have clarified my position on a few points (and finally answered all the outstanding questions from this post ;-)). Jon 35221 From: jonoabb Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 5:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta - sitting and meditating is not the point Hi, Rob Ep Many thanks for this interesting story/allegory. I like the spirit behind the penultimate paragraph. We should not be trying to emulate the Buddha and his arahants, but rather should be listening carefully to what he and they had to say to us. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Hi Jon. > Just to put a wrinkle in the discussion, I thought I would present > some evidence for the Abhidhamma view from none other than a prominent > Ch'an/zen Master. I hope you will find this story refreshing. ... > Nanyue Osho visited Ma Tzu in his cell where he was > meditating, and asked, "In practicing sitting meditation, > what does your devotion aspire to attain?" > > "To attain buddhahood" Ma Tzu responded. > > Immediately Nanyue took up a piece of tile and proceeded > to grind it against a stone at the door of Ma Tzu's cell. > > Ma Tzu asked, "What are you grinding the tile for?" > > Nanyue replied, "I want to grind the tile into a mirror." > > With a laugh, Ma Tzu said, "How do you hope to grind > that tile into a mirror?" > > Nanyue responded, "Since a piece of tile cannot be ground > into a mirror, how the can you sit your self into a buddha?" > > "What is to be done?" Ma Tzu asked. > > Nanyue replied, "Take the case of an ox-cart: if the cart does > not move, do you whip the cart or do you whip the ox?" > > Ma Tzu remained silent. > > Nanyue resumed, "In learning sitting meditation do you aspire > to imitate the sitting Buddha or do you aspire to learn the sitting > Zen? If the former, the Buddha has no fixed postures. If you > aspire to learn sitting Zen, Zen does not possess sitting or lying > down. > > "The dharma flows on forever and never abides in anything. > Thus, you should not be attached to, nor abandon, any step > of it. To sit yourself into Buddha is to kill the Buddha. To be > attached to the sitting posture is a failure to understand the > essential principle." 35222 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 5:55am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Howard Thanks for your reply with comments on this sutta. Howard: I really think that the Anapanasati Sutta presents itself as an implementation - one of many, possibly - of the Satipatthana Sutta, in fact as a means of bringing to culmination the four foundations of mindfulness, and that it subsumes samatha bhavana as well. I see the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta as being almost companion pieces. Jon: Yes, but the very least attained of those present for the Anapanasati Sutta were monks who were already 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'. I take this as referring to a relatively advanced stage of development. What do you think? Howard: As far as whether either if these addresses practices appropriate for the rank beginner, I'm not certain, but I believe that both do. A beginner simply will not get as far in reaping benefits as quickly and as significant as one who is "further along," but I still believe s/he can reap benefits. The thing is: Unless one has developed past-life recall, one doesn't know for sure whether one is a rank beginner, a midling practitioner, or more. As with all of the Dhamma, "Come and see" is a worthwhile approach, I believe. I find that I, myself, benefit from cultivating mindfulness, calm, and concentration with the breath as primary subject, and from formal and informal "meditative" practice in general, and I suspect that many people would. Jon: If the 4 tetrads of this sutta are appropriate for monks who (a) are already 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' and (b) are living a life of seclusion, and have the attainments, that are described by the words: [17] "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out", then is it likely that what is contained in the 4 tetrads has any direct application to the practice of a beginner? We should not forget that the fruit of over-estimating one's present level of development is wrong practice. Jon 35223 From: Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/7/04 8:56:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > Thanks for your reply with comments on this sutta. > > Howard: > I really think that the Anapanasati Sutta presents itself as an > implementation - one of many, possibly - of the Satipatthana Sutta, in > fact as a means of bringing to culmination the four foundations of > mindfulness, and that it subsumes samatha bhavana as well. I see the > Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta as being almost companion > pieces. > > Jon: > Yes, but the very least attained of those present for the Anapanasati > Sutta were monks who were already 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out > breathing'. I take this as referring to a relatively advanced stage of > development. What do you think? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think it just refers to monks who have adopted that practice as their "practice of choice". Of course, it would not be their exclusive practice in any case, as they were instructed to also maintain constant mindfulness in guarding the senses, observe careful sila, and follow all the monk's training rules. Moreover, they were frequently receiving teachings from more senior monks and, if fortunate, from the Buddha himself, which served as requisite, backgound patipatti, seeding the mind. ---------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > As far as whether either if these addresses practices appropriate > for the rank beginner, I'm not certain, but I believe that both do. A > beginner simply will not get as far in reaping benefits as quickly and as > significant as one who is "further along," but I still believe s/he can > reap benefits. The thing is: Unless one has developed past-life recall, > one doesn't know for sure whether one is a rank beginner, a midling > practitioner, or more. As with all of the Dhamma, "Come and see" is a > worthwhile approach, I believe. I find that I, myself, benefit from > cultivating mindfulness, calm, and concentration with the breath as > primary subject, and from formal and informal "meditative" practice in > general, and I suspect that many people would. > > Jon: > If the 4 tetrads of this sutta are appropriate for monks who (a) are > already 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' and (b) are living > a life of seclusion, and have the attainments, that are described by the > words: > [17] "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to > the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs > crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. > Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out", > then is it likely that what is contained in the 4 tetrads has any direct > application to the practice of a beginner? We should not forget that the > fruit of over-estimating one's present level of development is wrong > practice. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't put (a) and (b) [17] on the same high pedestal as you do, Jon. Item (a) I've already giving my understanding of, and [17] is a stock description of isolating oneself from disturbances and sitting for meditation on the breath. In any case, I think it is an individual matter as to what practice is found to be useful. I'm deriving much from my two hours a day of breath meditation. I'm really happy with how it is proceeding. It is a wonderful aspect of my practice, enhancing the other aspects. I don't assume, however, that it will be of use to everyone, at all times, under all circumstances. ----------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35224 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Annatta teaching Hi, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: ... > E: Where is intellectual panna in the 7 factors of awakening? I'm not sure I really understand the question. Isn't this rather like asking where is the basic knowledge/skill in any advanced knowledge/skill, such as mathematics, grammar or the like? The basic knowledge is always there, even if it is not consciously called upon. It doesn't disappear (if it did, that would be the end of the 'advanced' knowledge). (Since writing this I've seen Sukin's post to RobK and All, and I think he is spot on when he says: I think this addresses your question more directly than my comments do.) > Jon > As we have discussed before, the process of listening to, > considering, reflecting on, and gaining a reflective acceptance of > the teachings, and so forth on to direct understanding, are mutually > supportive aspects of, and necessary conditions for, the ongoing > development of insight, and will continue to be a necessary part of > the development of insight up to the time of enlightenment. > > E: How do you know this Jon? To my reading of the texts, there's no end to the pariyatti --> patipatti --> pativedha cycle until final enlightenment is attained. Here is some sutta material that I see as supporting that reading: SN 55:55 (Connected Discourses of the Buddha translation) Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. [55] And the same 4 things also: -- lead to the realization of the fruit of once-returning [56] -- lead to the realization of the fruit of non-returning [57] -- lead to the realization of the fruit of arahantship [58] -- lead to the obtaining of wisdom [59] -- lead to the growth of wisdom [60] -- lead to the expansion of wisdom [61] (Howard and I have discussed this issue before, and I'm hoping he will be able to refer us to the relevant posts ;-)) Jon 35225 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 6:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hi Herman, ---------- > HH: I have never seen the slightest indication from you to suggest that you are even able to vary from the belief that the views you currently hold dear are exactly and only what the Buddha taught. (Don't take that as criticism, it is merely an observation.:-)) > ------------------- No worries. But I'm not clear on what it is you have observed. When you say, "the views you currently hold dear," I can only assume you are referring to the views found in the Pali Canon and Commentaries. I can't imagine for a moment you are suggesting that I believe my own views are "exactly what the Buddha taught." On that basis, what is the problem? Why shouldn't I believe that those Theravada views are exactly what the Buddha taught? Wouldn't that mean I am where I belong (in DSG)? ---------------------- H: > The fear that conditions faith, and the faith that conditions fear can be known, faced upto, conquered and discarded. Again descriptive, not prescriptive :-)) > ------------- I am still missing the point: please describe it in another way. ------------- H: > How's the surf today ? You wouldn't catch me dead in the ocean. Too scared :-) ------------------------- If it's big waves that scare you, come up to Noosa, we haven't seen one of them in months. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 35226 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi Jon: Respecfully butting in... > We > should not forget that the > fruit of over-estimating one's present level of > development is wrong > practice. > -------------------------------------------------- In the step-by-step doctrine of this Sutta, we find that Buddha begun speaking about the four tetrads, combining the mindful breathing in- and- out with well fitted recollections of ideas: as a matter of whole this first step is adequate for all four ranks of Monks and for laypersons too. After these passages come the heptads and Nibbana at the end. Following Buddha´s train of reasoning, perhaps the heptads and further are only well performed by Bhikkhus! The error in the case, if any, is a violation of the rule: "One must learn to walk first, and only thereafter begin to run" Anyway, and for sure, corrections are welcome! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== 35227 From: Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Annatta teaching Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/7/04 9:44:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > (Howard and I have discussed this issue before, and I'm hoping he will be > able to refer us to the relevant posts ;-)) > ====================== Sorry, Jon. Wish I could help, but I have no ready reference. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35228 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, most of the traditional 40 meditation subjects recommended > by > the Buddha and later by Buddhaghosa are single (conventional) objects. > ----------------------------------------------- I think that's debatable, but in any event the question still remains: Is simply concentrating on an object likely to be kusala? To put the question another way, where is the kusala in concentrating on, say, a blue kasina, or the breath, or a corpse? As a matter of interest, here is a summary of the list of 40: - ten kasinas - ten kinds of foulness (corpse contemplations) - ten recollections/mindfulnesses (Buddha, dhamma, Sangha, virtue, generosity, deities, death, body, breathing, peace) - four divine abidings (metta, karuna, mudita, uppekkha) - four immaterial states - one perception (repulsiveness in nutriment) - one defining (of the four elements) Most of these do not lend themselves to the kind of focused concentration that is generally talked about in the context of samatha. How, for example, does one 'concentrate on' the recollection of the Buddha? > > On the other hand, unless the intellectual understanding of the > teachings > > is correct in the first place, any 'sense of urgency' or 'effort' > brought > > to bear will be misdirected. Yes, there is some circularity in the > whole > > thing. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, practice is, indeed, quite circular. Recall our spiral > conversations? I do indeed. Do you happen to have a reference to those posts? They would be relevant to one of the threads I have going with Eric at the moment. TIA Jon 35229 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta and spinach Hi, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: ... > E> I just want to walk the path Jon. If it is good > for everyone, then what is the harm? I mean it > reduces bodily stress and mental stress. Also, > if it makes one a superhero, what is the harm > in recommending it to people in general? I don't see > what your aversion to it is, especially after you agreed > that it is good!! Now if it is a matter of 'personal' > taste, why didn't you just say so from the beginning?! The Buddha recommended all forms of kusala to all persons, to be developed according to their ability. I see no distinction between samatha and other forms of kusala. And I'd be happy to see more discussion on samatha. I hope that answers your questions on 'recommending it in general' and aversion ;-)) But the more interesting question is, what is this kusala called samatha? Is it a matter of sitting down and concentrating on a given object? I don't believe so. That is not something that conditions kusala of a high degree to arise. As I said in a recent post, the essence of samatha is the kusala factor of tranquillity (passaddhi). Without this and other factors (such as knowledge of the difference between kusala and subtle akusala) there cannot be the development of kusala concentration. ... > Specifically to your question. IMHO and experience, if > the mind is not calm and concentrated, insight will not > arise. I am speaking very practicaly here Jon. Concentration > must be able to hold or encompass 'feeling', if it cannot > then Dependent Origination moves like a lightning bolt. > The mind must be still for it to hold or see the present > arisen dhamma within a frame of reference. If not, you get > 'monkey mind' with much discursive thought. Again, this > is my experience. This is why I asked you where is > intellectual panna in the seven factors of awakening? The issue I'm trying to focus on here is whether, according to the suttas and other texts, there is at least the theoretical possibility of some level of awareness occurring now, that is to say, at this very moment no matter what the posture, activity or conscious intention. Or in other words, what are the conditions for there to be (the possibility of) some level of awareness at this moment? Do the texts suggest this is not possible absent a certain level of samatha practice? It seems to me that this issue is the focus of the suttas in general and of suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta (and numerous others) in particular. (You mention your own experience. While personal experience can confirm what is said in the teachings, that experience is not in my view a safe guide as to the way to go, for the very reasons you mention at the beginning of your comment above.) > With that said, I would say that it is a 8 fold path, > not a 1 fold, i.e. just SATI. So, Right Concentration is > defined as Jhana. Seems we can not get around this. First, the Noble Eightfold Path is a description of the moment of path consciousness at which enlightenment occurs. It is 8-fold because it is accompanied by these 8 factors. It is a path because it goes by stages to final enlightenment. The important question, in my view, is what is it that leads to the arising of this path, and the answer to this question is to be found in the suttas in places like the Satipatthana Sutta but also in numerous other suttas throughout the Tipitaka (i.e., not in the description of the path factors themselves). Secondly, some points about the factor or Right Concentration: - although Right Concentration is usually defined in terms of the 4 jhanas, it is on occasion defined in other terms - all 4 jhanas are mentioned, i.e., it is not a case of specifying a minimum, but of describing what is happening at the path consciousness moment - the jhanas can be developed without any knowledge or understanding of the teachings regarding insight and enlightenment. Surely such jhanas are not to be considered as Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path. How do you see this? Finally, even if mundane jhana is seen as a prerequisite, that still leaves the question of what is the practice, as far as insight is concerned, at the present (i.e., non-meditative) moment. Perhaps we can put aside the jhana/no jhana issue and consider that. Any thoughts? Jon 35230 From: Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 3:36am Subject: Word Correction Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 8/7/04 10:05:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Moreover, they were frequently receiving teachings from more senior monks > and, if fortunate, from the Buddha himself, which served as requisite, > backgound patipatti, seeding the mind. > ====================== I meant 'pariyatti'. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35231 From: Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/7/04 10:45:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, most of the traditional 40 meditation subjects recommended > >by > >the Buddha and later by Buddhaghosa are single (conventional) objects. > >----------------------------------------------- > > I think that's debatable, but in any event the question still remains: Is > simply concentrating on an object likely to be kusala? To put the > question another way, where is the kusala in concentrating on, say, a blue > kasina, or the breath, or a corpse? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I dunno, Jon. You'll have to ck back with the Buddha (or with Buddhaghosa). These were not my inventions. ;-) ------------------------------------------- > > As a matter of interest, here is a summary of the list of 40: > - ten kasinas > - ten kinds of foulness (corpse contemplations) > - ten recollections/mindfulnesses (Buddha, dhamma, Sangha, virtue, > generosity, deities, death, body, breathing, peace) > - four divine abidings (metta, karuna, mudita, uppekkha) > - four immaterial states > - one perception (repulsiveness in nutriment) > - one defining (of the four elements) > > Most of these do not lend themselves to the kind of focused concentration > that is generally talked about in the context of samatha. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Really. The kasinas, in particular, don't? Breath doesn't? For that matter, any of them? How do you know thiis? And if you are right, why were they put forward? What was wrong with the Buddha that day? ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ How, for> > example, does one 'concentrate on' the recollection of the Buddha? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know. Sounds like a kind of contemplation. It wouldn't be my choice of subject. I think I would require special instruction on how to properly utilize this subject. ----------------------------------------------- > > >>On the other hand, unless the intellectual understanding of the > >teachings > >>is correct in the first place, any 'sense of urgency' or 'effort' > >brought > >>to bear will be misdirected. Yes, there is some circularity in the > >whole > >>thing. > >> > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yes, practice is, indeed, quite circular. Recall our spiral > >conversations? > > I do indeed. Do you happen to have a reference to those posts? They > would be relevant to one of the threads I have going with Eric at the > moment. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: All I could easily find was message # 14360. ------------------------------------------------- > > TIA > > ========================= What does TIA stand for, Jon? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35232 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion Dear Joop, op 06-08-2004 14:42 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > In my 'social question' I had the hope I had not read well about > Abhidhamma, that there was for exemple a citta with the > content "being aware of and feeling connected with another sentient > being, especially with another human being" But such a citta doesn't > exist, if I understood the answers well. N: Those who have developed samatha to the stage of jhana and developed supernatural powers can know the cittas of others. This is exeptional. For most people, they can just guess or sense what others are thinking, but not precisely from moment to moment. A certain intuition we all have, it is rather common. J: It's not so difficult for me to see myself as only nama and rupa, > but's difficult (in a ethical way) to see other being as only nama > and rupa. Special the beings that are in a way dependent (food, care, > etc) on me. And Sarah, is for exemple teaching the Dhamma to other > people not important? > So there are no "social citta's" but there are the Brahma-vihara. N: that is the answer, we just care for others in a natural, normal way, but at the same time we learn that what we take for being are citta, cetasika and rupa. This is not forced, on the contrary, it helps to be less attached to persons with selfish clinging or expectations, expecting kindness from them in return. The Abhidhamma helps to function better in social life! The Brahmaviharas help for good sila in a natural way. I like to see sila as not imposed from outside, something that is forced on. It can grow naturally as understanding grows (in Dutch: van binnen uit). Sila and social life, closely connected. How else do we practise? I wrote about this aspect: Respect for the Buddha and for our fellowmen is a good motivation for sila, it can come naturally. When there is metta we do not want to cause other people to be sad and cry. We are also more careful as to speech. Sila is very social. Also the Vinaya is very social. The monks live in a community with all the human problems they have. They have their responsibility for the Order, to carry out the functions of the Sangha, and preserving the Dhamma for the whole Buddhist community. J: Are citta's possible without language, for > exemple in a child with whom the parents or other people never talked > at all? I think without (internal) language there is no consciousness N: At the first moment of life there is the rebirth-consciousness, and it experiences the same object as that experienced shortly before dying in the previous life. No language. When seeing, colour is experienced, no language. When there is thinking there is internal language. But speech intimation is something else. This is a special kind of rupa that condiitons speech sound, it is not the sound itself. When one has the intention to convey a meaning this rupa conditions speech sound that is understandable to someone else. There is the conveyer and the receiver. Body intimation: a special kind of rupa that conditions a certain change that conveys a meaning. Forexample: when someone is angry there is a change in the eyes. The other person only sees colour but remembers the meaning: this person shows anger. J: Nina, I been reading some of your (internet) books and participated > in a dhammagroup about one of them in Buddhavihara in Amsterdam. They > really mean much to me. N: Was it Abh in Daily Life? Perhaps you can share some of their Q. with us. J: You wrote "The Abhidhamma helps to understand citta at this moment, > to understand yourself, your own akusala and their conditons. In this > way you will understand others.... and still I don't understand > what the mental (?) activity called "UNDERSTANDING" is, is that a > citta? N: cetasika, pañña, wisdom understands. It understands nama and rupa and their conditions, both with regard to ourselves and with regard to others. When we see other people's akusala we know that also we ourselves have accumulated akusala. and this will condition more patience. A. Sujin always says: be an understanding person for others. So you see, the social aspect. Very fascinating. J: You wrote " The Abhidhamma helps us to detect the near ennemies of > the Brahmaviharas." > I don't know if is is correct but to me 'indifference' is the near > ennemy of equanimity; is that a correct view? N: I wrote: Sometimes people are beyond help, but then we can develop equanimity. I wrote about the definition as given in the Expositor: Nina. 35233 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro: vipaakadhammadhammaa Dear Icaro and Connie, op 06-08-2004 21:34 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Think about the own Pali language structure > encroached on All Dhammasangani, for example. You get > even at matiika, stanza 3 > > 3. Vipaakaa Dhamma > Vipaakadhammadhammaa > Nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa. > > one of the distinctive marks of Pali is the "clash" of > opposities terms at one sentence ( mediated or not by > sandhi rules...)... words and their contraries > face-to-face,pushing on one each other, as the Third > Newton Law of Dynamics. Nina: I was puzzled by twice dhammadhammaa at first but looked up Expositor I, p. 54. Vipaakadhammadhammaa: causes (the second dhammaa) effecting results: this is the first part:Vipaakadhamma, and here ( vipaakadhamma) dhamnma means: sabhaava, thus the nature of vipaaka. Dhamma has many meanings and can also mean cause. Taking the three stanzas: the first one is vipaaka, the second one is kamma producing vipaaka and third one is: neither vipaaka nor kamma. The Dsg (p. 233) explains that these include rupa and nibbana. We have to get used to the Triplets: the third one is: dhammas that are nor the first, nor the second. Short but deep in meaning. Just like: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyaakata dhamma (neither kusala nor akusala). Nina. 35234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] the Battle Hi Howard, thank you very much. I have the Thai Co and it all throws a different light on the meaning of this text and helps us to see this passage within the context. I try to take more time on it and render part of the long Co. Nina. op 07-08-2004 00:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> > In a message dated 8/6/04 3:36:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: > I had mentioned the "teeth clenching" approach as a last resort, and > that is how the Buddha presented it. The following is the sutta, addressed to > monks. 35235 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sound, hearing and meaning Hi Herman, op 07-08-2004 04:14 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I am very interested to read how Abhidhamma treats "meaning". You listen > to MP3. There is sound, there is hearing. Then there is meaning. If you > listened to a tape in Swahili, there would be sound, there would be > hearing. But no understanding, no meaning. > Now the meaning of the word dog is totally unrelated to the sound that > gave rise to the understanding. The meaning of dog does not somehow > dwell in its constituent parts. Studying the spoken d, then studying the > spoken o, then g does not lead to the meaning of dog. N: We can see that there are countless processes of cittas occurring: indeed hearing hears sound d in one process, then this sound is apprehended by cittas in a mind-door process, and another one that remembers sound d, and so on for the whole word. There are sentences and clauses, and the cetasika remembrance marks each object citta experiences so that you remember all this. But it goes very fast. Dog: you remember what it is you have even a mental picture of dog, maybe my father's dog comes to my mind first, that Husky that likes music. N: Does the abhidhamma teach that only the individual rupa of sound that > lead to hearing "dog" are real, and that hearing the individual rupa is > real, but that the aggregation of all that is not real? And what if I > get bitten by one? :-) H: The putting together of the whole picture we can call defining and thinking, it does not matter. A certain citta, actually many, are doing this job. Everything that is not citta, cetasika, rupa or nibbana we call concept. But dog is a name or concept representing citta, cetasika and rupa. We have to care for him. The abhidhamma is not abstract, inhuman. I talk dog language to dogs. Nina. 35236 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hey Ken, ---------- KH: > > as I was saying to Eric, if you think a conventional, > commonplace activity (any activity known to other philosophies) is > instrumental in the way to enlightenment, then I'll be only too > happy to set you straight. :-) > > ---------- E: > Are you enlightened Ken? If you are not, then how are you going to set us straight when you don't "know" what straight is? :-) > ------------------- KH: Point taken. :-) Did you read the rest of my message? Do you agree it would be good to understand what the Buddha taught rather than to rush ahead and practise something he might not have taught? E: You will never understand what the Buddha taught until you are enlightened! How did you learn to surf Ken? Read every book about it and how to make a surf board and read about water and tides and cohesion and study physical vector analysis to comprehend the forces on the board, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum? You see we learn by doing more than reading. Even you know this. So what are you trying to tell me? You want the path laid out in your imagination before you ever take a step for fear of failure? We learn to walk by falling down Ken! The ones who fail are the ones who never try and the ones who dont get back up. PEACE E 35237 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Anapanasati/ Jon Hey Jon, J > The word of the Master, in whatever form or medium, is where my interest lies ;-)) E> The Dhamma outside of words is where my interest lies. --- E> So, he is equating Anapanasati to Satipatthana in that Anapanasati > CULMINATES Satipatthana. J> Not as I see it. I think what is being discussed here is how a person who is developing anapanasati can *also* develop satipatthana at the highest levels. Rather than equating the two, he is explaining how the two can be developed in tandem (quite a different matter). E: In theory yes. In practice quite a different matter. ----- > E: You did not answer my quesition. Where is jhana mentioned in the > Anapanasati Sutta? As you seem to be saying you are incapable of > jhana so the sutta does not apply to you. J> No, I'm not really saying that. But first, let me explain that the reference to jhana is not my own but is the generally understood interpretation of the sutta based, E: I thought you were interested in the word of the Master. Why go to an interpreter? J>I believe, on the commentaries. For example, Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' has the following under 'anapanasati': "The first three [tetrads] apply to both tranquillity (samatha) and insight-meditation, while the fourth refers to pure insight practice only. The second and the third group require the attainment of the absorptions." If you know of a different interpretation, I'd be happy to consider it. E: Why dont we stick to the Masters words and our experience. J>However, the main reason I see the sutta as applying to those much more highly developed than I can be found in the introductory part of the sutta that precedes the passage you have quoted above. E: You already said all this Jon. So, I am gonna snip it. J> It seems likely to me that the Buddha's words were spoken mainly for the benefit of the last group (they also being of the least overall attainment among those present). E: Just like you and me huh? J: But since they are already firmly established in mindfulness of in-&-out breathing (anapanasati), the instruction he is to give will not be an instruction on anapanasati per se, and certainly not for beginners, but will show how insight can be developed at the same time as anapanasati is being pursued and the jhanas are being attained. E: Great, so stake your awareness at your breath for awhile and then you are good to go. J> This instruction is necessary because insight (and enlightenment) consciousness cannot co-occur with jhana consciousness. E: More theories.... > E: So, if I remember correctly from a recent post, > you were criticising someone for forming an opinion about the > abhidhamma when they had not even read it and now you have your own > opinions about Anapanasati without ever practicing it. Do you think > that is fair and proper? J> Well, better to learn about what anapanasati is or isn't (as referred to in the texts) without having practised it, than to jump into the practice of anapanasati without having first understood from the texts what it is, don't you think? ;-)) E: Did all the monks mentioned in the sutta have texts? See my last post to Ken about postponing the taking of your first steps. J> In any event, I've never said I'm not interested in anapanasati. What I have said is that I see the Anapanasati Sutta as having as its starting point a level of attainment that I cannot reasonably expect to achieve in this lifetime. E: Self fulfilling prophecy Jon. J: However, there's lots to know about anapanasati other than what's in that sutta, and I'd be very happy to discuss it. (Let's start at the beginning with a definition of terms. Are you OK with 'samatha with breath as object' as a definition of 'anapanasati'?) E I would simply say mindfulness of in and out breathing. J > Let me say again (yet again ;-)) that the Buddha encouraged the development of *all* kinds of kusala, *including* samatha (a very high level of kusala) and *including* samatha with breath as object, so anapanasati is something I'm very interested in. I just don't agree that the Anapanasati Sutta is the place to begin on this. E > Like I said b4. You can stay in the first Tetrad for years. There is much to learn and cultivate even there. PEACE E 35238 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Annatta teaching Hey Jon, > E: Where is intellectual panna in the 7 factors of awakening? J>I'm not sure I really understand the question. Isn't this rather like asking where is the basic knowledge/skill in any advanced knowledge/skill,such as mathematics, grammar or the like? The basic knowledge is alwaysthere, even if it is not consciously called upon. It doesn't disappear (if it did, that would be the end of the 'advanced' knowledge). E> The 7 factors are not based on the manipulation of symbolic knowledge. J>(Since writing this I've seen Sukin's post to RobK and All, and I think he is spot on when he says: I think this addresses your question more directly than my comments do.) E: Yes, one is a picture of food in a magazine. The other a meal to be eaten. > Jon > As we have discussed before, the process of listening to, > considering, reflecting on, and gaining a reflective acceptance of > the teachings, and so forth on to direct understanding, are mutually > supportive aspects of, and necessary conditions for, the ongoing > development of insight, and will continue to be a necessary part of > the development of insight up to the time of enlightenment. > > E: How do you know this Jon? J:To my reading of the texts, there's no end to the pariyatti --> patipatti --> pativedha cycle until final enlightenment is attained. E: How many texts did the Arahants walk around with? PEACE E 35239 From: nori Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Howard, > As I see it, "physical body" and "brain" and so on, are concepts, > mental constructs (like the Buddha's and Nagasena's chariot), that, in a very > complex way, codify amazing patterned complexes of interrelated "actualities". But then howard, if physical body, is a 'mental' construct then why does Gotama Buddha explain that the body is constituted of the four elements (which, while I am uncertain) is fire (heat/energy), water (???), air (???), earth (matter). I cannot remember the sutta but he said our mind is bound up in them (the elements), is dependent upon them. While the reality we perceive is constructed by the mind in the sense of interpretation, however reality exists independent of the mind no ? Just as if I smashed somebodys skull, their 'mental construct' reality would end, and we and all else constructed of the four elements would continue to exist. > But > bodily sensations (and visual, auditory, olfactory, and gustatory events as > well), as they are, constitute a certain variety of direct experiential > content, namely rupa, whereas thoughts, feelings, inclinations, etc, as they are, > constitute a different variety of direct experiential content, namely nama. They are certainly different types of experiential content. But I still do not see how there could be direct experience of anything. All experience takes place in the mind, even the most basic sense experience; its interpretation is constructed in the mind. Matter comes in contact with the hand, nerves send impulses to the brain, brain interprets impulses and constructs a reality. From my example, even the sense of touch, which is the most basic primitive sense can be in error as I have demonstrated with this example. We have gained fairly thorough understanding through observation, dissection and analysis of our bodies and how they operate over the years. Are we to consider this understanding to be false? Could we not trust what we observe? Even the Buddha endorsed contemplation of the body in regard to its organs and parts. Even examining a carcass splayed out in its parts as scientists of today do, to gain understanding. DN22: "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property." "he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature..." Just as that is constructed, so too am I constructed. If he encourages using these observations to gain understanding, then I think we are to recognize them as reality, no? peace, nori 35240 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 5:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hi Ken, Thanks for reading my posts with good cheer :-) ======= KH : No worries. But I'm not clear on what it is you have observed. When you say, "the views you currently hold dear," I can only assume you are referring to the views found in the Pali Canon and Commentaries. I can't imagine for a moment you are suggesting that I believe my own views are "exactly what the Buddha taught." On that basis, what is the problem? Why shouldn't I believe that those Theravada views are exactly what the Buddha taught? Wouldn't that mean I am where I belong (in DSG)? ======= HH : What is found in the Pali Canon and Commentaries spans a thousand odd years of development of thought. It should not surprise, then, that on a number of significant issues, what is taught in early Buddhism is markedly different to what is taught in the Theravadan scholastic period. There is not a unity of view in, say, the following: "This physical body made up of the four primary existents is seen to exist for one, two, three, four, five,ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, hundred or more years. That which is called the mind, thought or consciousness arises as one thing and ceases as another whether by night or by day" (S.i.94-7) and The teaching that cittas have a specific time duration (1/17th, I think) compared to rupas (Abh somewhere, I'm sure). Just as another example, in the Nikayas, cetasika is to be found only in the singular. It is only in later works that it came to be used as plural and an ultimate category. I can go on and on. But my interest is not in the academic distilling of what the Buddha verbally taught from a thousand years of written speculative philosophy (an exercise bound to be perfected as educated guesswork). I am mainly interested in solving a particularly nasty problem. Existence. To the extent that something that is put forward points to a solution that works, I'm all ears. Anything that doesn't go to a solution, merely compounds the problem. Who needs it? Even if we all realised that we don't exist, that does not end dukkha, does it? ---------------------- H: > The fear that conditions faith, and the faith that conditions fear can be known, faced upto, conquered and discarded. Again descriptive, not prescriptive :-)) > ------------- I am still missing the point: please describe it in another way. ============== HH : If the assurance of the scholastic cittavithi and paramattha dhamma theories merely acts as a suppressant to keep the crisis of the First Noble Truth from awareness, then the crisis remains. As long as the only reality we know is conditioned, we remain as stuffed as we ever were, regardless of whether we know it! ------------- H: > How's the surf today ? You wouldn't catch me dead in the ocean. Too scared :-) ------------------------- If it's big waves that scare you, come up to Noosa, we haven't seen one of them in months. :-) ============== HH : Sounds tempting :-). My son Tim will be heading up to Lismore for Uni early next year. We'll be heading up for some "getting to know the lay of the land" well before then. Who knows, our paths may yet cross. We don't eat much :-) Kind Regards Herman Kind regards, Ken H 35241 From: Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/7/04 7:56:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > As I see it, "physical body" and "brain" and so on, are > concepts, > >mental constructs (like the Buddha's and Nagasena's chariot), that, > in a very > >complex way, codify amazing patterned complexes of > interrelated "actualities". > > But then howard, if physical body, is a 'mental' construct then why > does Gotama Buddha explain that the body is constituted of the four > elements (which, while I am uncertain) is fire (heat/energy), water > (???), air (???), earth (matter). ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Phenomenological realities: heat - (varying degrees of felt) warmth and cold, water - cohesiveness/liquidity (supposedly a mind-door object), air - experienced motion/change (e.g. leg motion sensation), and earth - (varying degrees of felt) solidity and softness. ------------------------------------------------- > > I cannot remember the sutta but he said our mind is bound up in them > (the elements), is dependent upon them. > > While the reality we perceive is constructed by the mind in the sense > of interpretation, however reality exists independent of the mind no ? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Vi~n~nana and namarupa are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds. ----------------------------------------------- > > Just as if I smashed somebodys skull, their 'mental construct' > reality would end, and we and all else constructed of the four > elements would continue to exist. > > >But > >bodily sensations (and visual, auditory, olfactory, and gustatory > events as > >well), as they are, constitute a certain variety of direct > experiential > >content, namely rupa, whereas thoughts, feelings, inclinations, > etc, as they are, > >constitute a different variety of direct experiential content, > namely nama. > > They are certainly different types of experiential content. But I > still do not see how there could be direct experience of anything. > All experience takes place in the mind, even the most basic sense > experience; its interpretation is constructed in the mind. Matter > comes in contact with the hand, nerves send impulses to the brain, > brain interprets impulses and constructs a reality. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: You've never experienced matter. You've only presupposed it. What you have experienced is rupa: sights, sounds, tastes, smells, odors, solidity, etc. --------------------------------------------------- > > From my example, even the sense of touch, which is the most basic > primitive sense can be in error as I have demonstrated with this > example. > > We have gained fairly thorough understanding through observation, > dissection and analysis of our bodies and how they operate over the > years. Are we to consider this understanding to be false? Could we > not trust what we observe? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: We should absolutely distrust what we think we have observed. We are strongly under the sway of ignorance. ------------------------------------------------- > > Even the Buddha endorsed contemplation of the body in regard to its > organs and parts. Even examining a carcass splayed out in its parts > as scientists of today do, to gain understanding. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha used concepts. He spoke and taught relying on well established conventions. We all do. ------------------------------------------------- > > DN22: > > "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having > killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, > the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it > is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the > earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, &the wind > property." > > "he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its > nature..." > > Just as that is constructed, so too am I constructed. > > If he encourages using these observations to gain understanding, then > I think we are to recognize them as reality, no? > > > peace, > nori > > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35242 From: nori Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 7:55pm Subject: On focusing & directing awareness (reply to Sarah & Jon) Hi Sarah, S: > 4. You mentioned that `Vipassana is done by focussing your attention to > certain parts of the body......sweeping/scanning motion.....' etc. I'm > familiar with the Goenka method and definition of vipassana , but I don't > think it has any foundation in the Tipitaka or commentaries. Vipassana is > not something that is `done' but again refers to insight or understanding > which is anatta. > > 5. You kindly asked for `comments or personal techniques and experiences'. > I think that many of us found, like you, that our craving and frustration > for emancipation coupled with views of control and focussing which > resulted in following `personal techniques' simply led to more, rather > than less suffering. > 7. I think you asked about the objects contained in the fourth foundation > of mindfulness. As I understand it, all namas and rupas, including those > already discussed under the other three foundations are included here, for > example under khandhas. (See post by Jon at end) I agree with the idea that mindfulness of all dhammas are required for emancipation. However, it is obvious from the Suttas, that an element of focus & directing of the awareness at times is also necessary for emancipation (I am not speaking from experience, however). Namely, focusing and directing the awareness onto the motion of the breath and body for periods of time. It is true, for me also, in meditation that "control and focussing ... simply led to more, rather than less suffering." However, I believe once one develops conviction in the idea that this practice is truly beneficial and worth while, then it would no longer be suffering because one would be aware that this is the best action at certain times that one could take for his own benefit. --- Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13 "... Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he addressed the Blessed One, saying, "Is there one quality that, when developed & pursued, brings four qualities to completion? And four qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring seven qualities to completion? And seven qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring two qualities to completion? "Yes, Ananda, there is one quality that, when developed & pursued, brings four qualities to completion; and four qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring seven qualities to completion; and seven qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring two qualities to completion. And what is the one quality that, when developed & pursued, brings four qualities to completion? What are the four qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring seven qualities to completion? What are the seven qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring two qualities to completion? "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness)..." --- ... and what is mindfulness of in-and-out breathing ? Since one is not normally/naturally/typically aware of the motion of ones own breath, is it not the directing of the awareness for periods of time ? --- Also, an excerpt from an article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu - The Agendas of Mindfulness: "The Pali term for meditation is bhavana: development. It's a shorthand word for the development of skillful qualities in the mind. Bhavana is a type of karma -- the intentional activity leading ultimately leading to the end of karma -- but karma nonetheless. This point is underlined by another Pali term for meditation: kammatthana, the work at hand; and by a Thai idiom for meditation: "to make an effort." These terms are worth keeping in mind, to counterbalance the common assumption that meditation is an exercise in inaction or in passive, all-encompassing acceptance. Actually, as described in the Pali texts, meditation is a very pro-active process. It has an agenda and works actively to bring it about. This can be seen in the Pali description of how of right mindfulness is fostered through satipatthana." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/agendas.html peace, nori 35243 From: nori Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 8:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Howard, Now before I get into anything, I realize any further discussion on this topic is moot. Only direct experience of such things would settle the matter. Until then, I will remain uncertain, as should everybody else. Howard: "Vi~n~nana and namarupa are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds." I have heard that this is the teaching by Gotama Buddha, and my view is currently uncertain, but my refute to that idea is this (however ignorant my statement): I'm sure you agree, that you, Howard exist. ...and don't take this personally, but if I smashed your skull in my presence, I suspect that after you are gone, nothing in regards to rupas in our presence would change. Now if your vinnana had anything to do with maintaining the rupas around us, should they not change ? I realize this example might be due to my ignorance based on my current views. However if you had anything to say to set, more straight my views then I would appreciate it. ----- Howard: You've never experienced matter. You've only presupposed it. What you have experienced is rupa: sights, sounds, tastes, smells, odors, solidity, etc. Now this is not true. I have not presupposed matter. My understanding of sights, sounds, tastes, smells, odors, solidity, come from the direct observation and analysis of several different people who are in consensus. (e.g through - Dissection and analysis of sense organs and how they function, ability to see individual molecules with electron microscopes, various methods of characterizing and detecting matter, etc.) As to what matter is constructed of is an entirely different matter. Again, I would appreciate any words to set my views straight. ----- Howard: We should absolutely distrust what we think we have observed. We are strongly under the sway of ignorance. If I can't trust what I observe and experience, then I have nothing to go by, nothing to base my reality upon. What else is there? peace, nori 35244 From: connieparker Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 8:51pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 037 ) Nice seeing you again, Htoo! I hope you'll say more about the three manodhatu sometime. peace, connie HTOO: The 18th citta is ''upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka sampaticchana citta''. Sam means 'well','rightly', 'truely' and paticchana means 'to receive'. This citta just receives the object sensed by pancavinnana cittas. It is like a relayed centre and just receives the message without ever realising detailed knowledge of the object but just transfers the object to the other citta as soon as it receives the message. ***It is one of three manodhatu.*** 35245 From: connieparker Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 8:51pm Subject: Re: Icaro: vipaakadhammadhammaa Hey, Icaro, What is the ka, kha, ga in each tika? peace, connie 35246 From: connieparker Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Dear Gabriel, Other than each moment of our lives being 'Abhidhamma for Dummies', I think Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" must be the best book. It's in the e-book section of http://www.zolag.co.uk . When Sarah said "I recommend going slowly, considering and asking us lots of questions", it made me think that the 'consideration' or manisikaara paid to the vipaka is the more important part of 'reaction'. With Icaro's diving instructions, you should do well. peace, connie > ..... > S: Let us know how you go with these recommendations. I would suggest > looking at some of these before taking the plunge with the text Icaro > recommended - his idea of basics is a little unusual, after all he just > took the plunge with the Dhammasangani in Pali and is very comfortable in > the deep end;-) > Metta, > Sarah > ===== 35247 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 037 ) Dear Htoo, . You stress well that each citta only knows one object that is its specific domain. It helps people not to take all cittas together as me, or "I know this". And receiving citta and investigating citta do nothing special, just doing their functions in a matter of fact way, a neutral way. And it is all so fast. As you say, . I enjoyed your post, thanks, Nina. op 07-08-2004 12:39 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Among 89 cittas, 13 cittas have been discussed in the previous posts. > The 14th citta in its full name is.. > > ''Upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka sotavinnana citta''. Its > implications are the same as cakkhuvinnana citta with the exception > of knowledge of sound. 35248 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation on the Buddha Hi Howard and Jon, op 07-08-2004 19:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Jon: > How, for> >> example, does one 'concentrate on' the recollection of the Buddha? > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't know. Sounds like a kind of contemplation. It wouldn't be my > choice of subject. I think I would require special instruction on how to > properly utilize this subject. N: When you study the teachings and come to understand more, you feel gratefulness to the Buddha. You can think with deep respect of his special qualities: his wisdom, purity and compassion. This can be a natural thing, no special time or place. Observing sila in the form of helping someone who needs help, doing something for the sick and you remember that the Buddha said that you care for him when you care for the sick. Many ways of thinking of the Buddha to whom we owe so much. Nina. 35249 From: nori Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 10:08pm Subject: Seeking anatta (not self) is not good Hi Dhamma Friends, Now, I know I may be attacked for making this statement. I find that a prevalent theme and practice in this discussion group, is the seeking out of evidence/observation/experience for anatta (not- self). I think this is a dangerous disposition. To seek out an idea is to have a predetermined concept and seeking to prove a predetermined concept. This is vulnerable to error. I may not be what you believe it is. Maybe you should just let things reveal themselves, with no predetermination, no direction, and when your development is mature enough for you to discern this, it will be known. --- Samyutta Nikaya XLIV.10 Ananda Sutta "Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?" When this was said, the Blessed One was silent. "Then is there no self?" A second time, the Blessed One was silent. Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left. Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?" "Ananda, if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" "No, lord." "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" --- peace, nori 35250 From: nori Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 10:15pm Subject: What is arising and passing in regards to the body ? (need help) Hi Dhamma Friends, When I first read the (Maha) Satipatthana sutta, I interpreted arising and passing of the body as birth from egg and sperm (arising) and death (passing). Some things I have heard and read lead me to believe I am wrong. I would appreciate any views of others to set me straight; please include any experiential evidence apart from suttas. peace, nori 35251 From: connieparker Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 10:33pm Subject: Re: Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) Dear Christine, How come no one's answering? Are these trick questions? > Thinking over what it takes to break the first Precept (against > killing) - Just to re-cap ... > "Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) > 1. The being must be alive. > 2. There must be the knowledge that it is a live being. > 3. There must be an intention to cause death. > 4. An act must be done to cause death. > 5. There must be death, as the result of the said act. > If all the said five conditions are fulfilled, the first precept is > violated. " > Pondering on point 1. 'The being must be alive'. > Is a being considered to be alive if it is not able to live > independently, but lives via the biological processes of another? > Pondering on point 2. 'There must be the knowledge that it is a live > being'. Who must have the knowledge? The being? or the other? If > a 'being' is not self-aware - is it a being? (Thinking of sensitive > plants). 1. Yes. What can live independently? 2. Since plant 'life' is tied to heat rather than kamma, I think it's not the plants themselves, but the beings making them their homes that make it seem that the plants are sensitive. peace, connie 35252 From: nori Date: Sat Aug 7, 2004 10:31pm Subject: What is one quality when developed, brings all others to culmination? Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13 Ananda Sutta To Ananda (on Mindfulness of Breathing) "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he addressed the Blessed One, saying, "Is there one quality that, when developed & pursued, brings four qualities to completion? And four qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring seven qualities to completion? And seven qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring two qualities to completion?" "Yes, Ananda, there is one quality that, when developed & pursued, brings four qualities to completion; and four qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring seven qualities to completion; and seven qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring two qualities to completion. And what is the one quality that, when developed & pursued, brings four qualities to completion? What are the four qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring seven qualities to completion? What are the seven qualities that, when developed & pursued, bring two qualities to completion? "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion. (Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing) "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body, and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [4] He trains himself to breathe in calming the bodily processes, and to breathe out calming the bodily processes. "[5] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture. [6] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure. [7] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental processes, and to breathe out sensitive to mental processes. [8] He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes. "[9] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [10] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [11] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind. "[13] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy. [14] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [15] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [16] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment. (The Four Frames of Reference) "[1] Now, on whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, discerns that he is breathing out long; or breathing in short, discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, discerns that he is breathing out short; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the entire body; trains himself to breathe in... &... out calming the bodily processes: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you that this -- the in-&-out breath -- is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to rapture; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to pleasure; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to mental processes; trains himself to breathe in... &... out calming mental processes: On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you that this -- close attention to in-&-out breaths -- is classed as a feeling among feelings, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out satisfying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out steadying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out releasing the mind: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of confused mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on inconstancy; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on dispassion; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on cessation; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on relinquishment: On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees clearly with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who oversees with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. (The Seven Factors for Awakening) "And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? "[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[3] In one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, unflagging persistence is aroused. When unflagging persistence is aroused in one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then persistence as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[4] In one whose persistence is aroused, a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises. When a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises in one whose persistence is aroused, then rapture as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[5] For one who is enraptured, the body grows calm and the mind grows calm. When the body & mind of an enraptured monk grow calm, then serenity as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[6] For one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind of one who is at ease -- his body calmed - - becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[7] He oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity. When he oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity, equanimity as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. [Similarly with the other three frames of reference: feelings, mind, & mental qualities.] "This is how the four frames of reference are developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. (Clear Knowing & Release) "And how are the seven factors for Awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in relinquishment. "This is how the seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ananda delighted in the Blessed One's words. --- I cannot say I am posting this out of experience here (or endorsing it), I am just relaying the existence of this Sutta. peace, nori 35253 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 0:01am Subject: Re: What is arising and passing in regards to the body ? (need help) Hello Nori, May I introduce you to the teachings of Patrick Kearney? He was my first teacher though he now lives in another state, and we no longer have much contact. Patrick studied in many traditions, notably Zen with the Diamond Sangha of Robert Aitken Roshi in Hawaii, before coming to the Theravada tradition where he ordained, and spent some years as a bhikkhu, in Myanmar. He was a student of Mahasi Sayadaw and later U Pandita. Go to this website, scroll down to Evam me Suttam and look at number 5 Satipatthana Sutta, part 1 - "Satipatthana and the Body" - All of his lectures are valuable - they can be relied on to be what the Buddha taught. http://www.meditation.asn.au/teachings.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Dhamma Friends, > > When I first read the (Maha) Satipatthana sutta, I interpreted > arising and passing of the body as birth from egg and sperm (arising) > and death (passing). > > Some things I have heard and read lead me to believe I am wrong. > > I would appreciate any views of others to set me straight; please > include any experiential evidence apart from suttas. > > peace, > nori 35254 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) Hello Nori, Thanks for your reply. No, they aren't trick questions - maybe they aren't of interest to members. I was trying, in a roundabout way, to ask a question about Abortion without actually mentioning the word. By 'independently', I meant a little more than the fact that we are all connected to each other in the web of existence - I meant that each of us is not physically connected and dependent on another for our very life processes - like blood and air supply. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > Dear Christine, > How come no one's answering? Are these trick questions? > > > Thinking over what it takes to break the first Precept (against > > killing) - Just to re-cap ... > > "Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) > > 1. The being must be alive. > > 2. There must be the knowledge that it is a live being. > > 3. There must be an intention to cause death. > > 4. An act must be done to cause death. > > 5. There must be death, as the result of the said act. > > If all the said five conditions are fulfilled, the first precept is > > violated. " > > Pondering on point 1. 'The being must be alive'. > > Is a being considered to be alive if it is not able to live > > independently, but lives via the biological processes of another? > > Pondering on point 2. 'There must be the knowledge that it is a live > > being'. Who must have the knowledge? The being? or the other? If > > a 'being' is not self-aware - is it a being? (Thinking of sensitive > > plants). > > 1. Yes. What can live independently? > 2. Since plant 'life' is tied to heat rather than kamma, I think it's not > the plants themselves, but the beings making them their homes that make it > seem that the plants are sensitive. > peace, > connie 35255 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Dearest DSG friends, I thank you very much for such useful answers! I will now dedicate a little more time on the studies of the recommended texts, specially Nina's. I wish you all a peaceful week! Metta, Gabriel Laera ICQ:56458224 MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. 35256 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: Seeking anatta (not self) is not good --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: >> I find that a prevalent theme and practice in this discussion group, is the seeking out of evidence/observation/experience for anatta (not-> self). > I think this is a dangerous disposition. Because I am to short active in this forum i'm not sure that the way of talking about atta is dangerous. But I agree with you that many time I read again abou atta, I think: why repeat it so many times, I know atta-belief is an illusion. It's like in my atheistic times saying again and again: God doesn't exist, God does'nt exist etc. Sometimes I experience anatta in my vipassana-meditation and I have faith that that experience will grow. I fact than it's not important any more: it's an aspect, an exemple, of anicca Metta Joop 35257 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) Hi, Chris Just off the top of my head. I think that living being here refers to a citta/cetasika/rupa unit, in other words, at any time after the occurrence of patisandhi citta. I think that knowledge refers to knowledge on the part of the person carrying out the act. Don't know if this makes sense to you? Jon --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Nori, > > Thanks for your reply. No, they aren't trick questions - maybe they > aren't of interest to members. I was trying, in a roundabout way, > to ask a question about Abortion without actually mentioning the > word. > > By 'independently', I meant a little more than the fact that we are > all connected to each other in the web of existence - I meant that > each of us is not physically connected and dependent on another for > our very life processes - like blood and air supply. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 35258 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Hi, Gabriel I'm sure what you meant by 'action and reaction', but it occured to me you might have been thinking of sense-door experiences and our reaction to them, for example, experiencing pain through the body door and reacting with aversion. Is this the kind of thing you had in mind? Jon --- Gabriel Nunes Laera wrote: > Dearest DSG friends, > > I thank you very much for such useful answers! I will now dedicate a > little > more time on the studies of the recommended texts, specially Nina's. > > I wish you all a peaceful week! > > Metta, > > Gabriel Laera > > ICQ:56458224 > MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... > > "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o > Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. 35259 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Hi Jon. > I'm sure what you meant by 'action and reaction', > but it occured to me you > might have been thinking of sense-door experiences > and our reaction to > them, for example, experiencing pain through the > body door and reacting > with aversion. > > Is this the kind of thing you had in mind? ------------------------------------------------------ I think Gabriel is mentioning indeed the Newton´s third law of dynamics... I could alert him that The Abhidhamma is not a College science book, but now, thanks to Connie and Nina, I got a better view of it. But... perhaps he can speak up better about his inquiries! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== 35260 From: Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/7/04 11:57:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Now before I get into anything, I realize any further discussion on > this topic is moot. Only direct experience of such things would > settle the matter. Until then, I will remain uncertain, as should > everybody else. > > Howard: > "Vi~n~nana and namarupa are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of > reeds." > > I have heard that this is the teaching by Gotama Buddha, and my view > is currently uncertain, but my refute to that idea is this (however > ignorant my statement): > > I'm sure you agree, that you, Howard exist. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: ;-)) After I figure out exactly what that is supposed to mean, I'll let you know. Actually, Nori, no, I do not believe there is any such entity. I certainly meaningfully speak of "I" and "Howard," but the answer - truly - is "no". ----------------------------------------------- > > ...and don't take this personally, but if I smashed your skull in my > presence, I suspect that after you are gone, nothing in regards to > rupas in our presence would change. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: We don't agree on that. First of all, there is nothing but change in a sense. Secondly, rupas, whether "yours" or "mine" are not lasting substances. That's just not the way reality is, at least not as I view the "matter" ;-). ----------------------------------------------- Now if your vinnana had anything > > to do with maintaining the rupas around us, should they not change ? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Nori, our perspectives are not even tangential. You are envisioning a substantial, common-sense world of lasting substances and objects. Whether or not there are "things" that are, as avoided in the Bahiya Sutta, "unseen", "unheard", "unsensed", and "uncognized," that is - "things" underlying mere phenomenaal elements of experience, is, in principle, unknowable and at most inferable. --------------------------------------------------------- > > I realize this example might be due to my ignorance based on my > current views. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We're all prone to that! ------------------------------------------------------- > > However if you had anything to say to set, more straight my views > then I would appreciate it. > > ----- > > Howard: > You've never experienced matter. You've only presupposed it. What you > have experienced is rupa: sights, sounds, tastes, smells, odors, > solidity, > etc. > > Now this is not true. I have not presupposed matter. My understanding > of sights, sounds, tastes, smells, odors, solidity, come from the > direct observation and analysis of several different people who are > in consensus. (e.g through - Dissection and analysis of sense organs > and how they function, ability to see individual molecules with > electron microscopes, various methods of characterizing and detecting > matter, etc.) As to what matter is constructed of is an entirely > different matter. > > Again, I would appreciate any words to set my views straight. > > ----- > > Howard: > We should absolutely distrust what we think we have observed. We are > strongly under the sway of ignorance. > > If I can't trust what I observe and experience, then I have nothing > to go by, nothing to base my reality upon. What else is there? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: One trusts the "reality" of a dream until one awakens. Sometimes a dream is so odd, that one even starts to realize while dreaming that "this can't be as it seems". ---------------------------------------------- > > > peace, > nori > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35261 From: Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation on the Buddha Hi, Nina (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/8/04 1:24:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard and Jon, > op 07-08-2004 19:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > Jon: >How, for> > >>example, does one 'concentrate on' the recollection of the Buddha? > >------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > >I don't know. Sounds like a kind of contemplation. It wouldn't be my > >choice of subject. I think I would require special instruction on how to > >properly utilize this subject. > N: When you study the teachings and come to understand more, you feel > gratefulness to the Buddha. You can think with deep respect of his special > qualities: his wisdom, purity and compassion. This can be a natural thing, > no special time or place. Observing sila in the form of helping someone who > needs help, doing something for the sick and you remember that the Buddha > said that you care for him when you care for the sick. Many ways of thinking > of the Buddha to whom we owe so much. > Nina. > > =============================== Yes, of course, Nina. I do feel great reverance and admiration for the Budddha, and much gratefulness to him. At one point in my life, I went through a period in which I was falsely led to believe that I was likely to die from an illness that, in fact, I didn't have. I got through this period without any mental anguish at all, having consciously decided, and having managed, to avoid *hope* and to accept however things would turn out. Probably due to my years of studying and practicing Dhamma, it was actually possible for me to avoid the suffering of that form of craving called "hope", and by so doing I was at peace. (And when I found out, after a week, that I had no terminal illness at all, the reaction was merely one of "Oh, so it's that way and not the other.") After the fact, however, I did have a "reaction" - one of joyous gratefulness to the Buddha for showing us what dukkha is about. I remember writing paeons of adoration aimed at the Buddha in emails I sent (maybe to DSG, maybe elsewhere). With the foregoing having been said, I still think that in order for Buddhanupassana (if that is correct Pali) to be effective as a meditation subject requires special training, and it is the context of meditative training that is the issue at hand. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35262 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 8:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 038 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In the earlier posts of the series 'Dhamma Thread', different classifications of citta have been explained. But if needed, they will be dealt with again in later posts. Currently, the thread is on each citta as a single unit. So far 19 cittas have been discussed in some detail. 12 are akusala cittas and 7 are vipaka cittas. The latter cittas are vipaka but they are the result of bad kamma. The coming 8 cittas are also vipaka cittas but they are the result of good kamma. Both are ahetuka cittas as explained in the thread ( 037 ). 20th citta in its full name is.. 'Upekkha sahagatam kusala vipakam cakkhuvinnana citta'. The citta arises as a result of past good kamma or kusala. Other implications are just the same as 13th citta which is 'upekkha sahagatam akusala vipakam cakkhuvinnana citta. Both 13th citta and 20th citta are collectively known as dvi-cakkhuvinnana cittas. By the same token, 21st citta and 14th cittas are called dvi- sotavinnana cittas. The 21st citta in its full name is called.. 'Upekkha sahagatam kusala vipakam sotavinnana citta' and its function is to know the sound. 22nd citta is 'upekkha sahagatam kusala vipakam ghanavinnana citta'. 22nd citta and 15th citta are called dvi-ghanavinnana cittas. Their function is to know the smell. The difference is that kusala vipaka is the result of past good action and akusala vipaka is for past bad action. 23rd citta is 'upekkha sahatgatam kusala vipakam jivhavinnana citta'. 23rd citta and 16th citta are called dvi-jivhavinnana cittas and they are to do with sensing taste. One is for kusala and another is for akusla. Otherwise sampayutta dhamma or co-arising things are all the same. 24th citta is 'sukha sahagatam kusala vipaka kayavinnana citta'. 24th citta and 17th citta are collectively known as dvi-kayavinnana cittas. Here the difference is remarkable unlike other vinnana cittas where they have upekkha vedana. 24th citta or ahetuka kusala vipaka citta is the result of past good action and it has pleasant feeling while ahetuka akusala vipaka citta has unpleasant feeling. 25th citta is 'upekkha sahagatam kusala vipaka sampaticchana citta'. This citta is just to receive the message or the sense that has been known by pancavinnana cittas. The difference from 18th citta is that this 25th citta is the result of kusala. This 25th citta is another manodhatu while the 18th citta is also manodhatu. ( Manodhatu will be discussed later as Connie reminded ). 26th citta is 'somanassa sahagatam kusala vipaka santirana citta'. This citta is like 19th citta which is also santirana citta. The difference is that 26th citta is the result of kusala and the 19th citta is the result of akusala. Moreover, 26th citta is a not patisandhi citta or bhavanga citta or cuti citta as 19th citta. One more thing is 26th citta is associated with somanassa or joy. 27th citta is 'upekkha sahagatam kusala vipaka sasntirana citta'. This citta is totally the same with 19th citta in terms of accompanying things but this 27th citta is the result of kusala. 27th citta can do the job of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti. Among 89 cittas, the first 12 cittas are akusala cittas. Then followed by 7 vipaka cittas which are the result of bad actions and then next is 8 vipaka cittas which arise due to kusala. The latter 2 groups are called ahetuka cittas as they do not have any hetu such as lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha. These 15 cittas ( 7 + 8 ) are called ahetuka vipaka cittas. There are sahetuka vipaka cittas that is cittas with hetus. Again 7 cittas are called ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas and later 8 cittas are known as ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas. Not to be confused, both have to be remembered as vipaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: So far 38 posts have been released. Initially each Pali word is explained. But in later posts they are not repeated. If there needed, please just reply the corresponding post for clarification. Cittas are numbered in this series for easy reference. ( Htoo ) 35263 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 9:04am Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 04 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The right thought is the chief that is pushing the vehicle forward along the journey to nibbana. Without thought, there will not be any action and there will not be any movement along the way of journey to nibbana. Due to right view, right thoughts have to arise and this again push forward the vehicle. Now the journey has been started. The right thoughts lead to right actions. Whenever we consider to do something, we at least have to have a plan for that. That plan is thinking and as the right viewed has been set up, thoughts become the right ones. So the intended actions are thoroughly considered whether they should be done or not and as right thoughts develop, the arising thoughts lead to right actions. All the movements will be meaningful with right thought. For example, if someone has considered the act of killing is not right and he weighes it as bad thing. This right thought hinders him not to do killing. This avoidance derived from right thought is a kind of moral conduct or sila and actions not connected with killing become right actions. By the same token, when there is a circumstance that taking of things is iminent, right thought considers that whether taking those things is free of ill-will or free of the act of stealing. If the action would involve in stealing, the right thought hinders not to do that action of taking things. This avoidance derived from right thought is a kind of moral conduct or sila and actions not connected with stealing or anything related to stealing become right actions. In the same way, when there are right thoughts, misuse of senses or sensual things will not occur in actions at least. Having illegitimate sex is not of the output of right thoughts. When approaching the Path, even lawful sex is not a part of right actions as having sex is associated with a lot of attachment, craving, clinging and endless akusala cittas. Avoidance of apparently defilements-involved actions such as having sex derives from right thoughts. Taking intoxicants, recreational drugs, alcohol etc derives not from right thoughts and these do not add to building up of right things for the Path. Right thoughts lead to do right actions. As there are actions, we can say that there is movement along our journey. We have started the journey. As we have right view, our thoughts will become right thoughts. As we have developed right thoughts, our actions will become right actions. Up to now, we are developing or building up moral conduct which again derives from right thoughts. The moral conduct or sila that we have is just lokiya sila. Lokuttara sila only arise with lokuttara cittas. Anyway, we are heading to right actions and we have started the journey to nibbana. As a routine we have to get up from our bed daily. As soon as we wake up from our sleep, we are conscious to ourselves and our surroundings and thoughts. When there is right view, the thoughts will be right thoughts. These right thoughts will dictate all our actions through out the day and night until we go into deep sleep. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... 35264 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 9:19am Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 05 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The right thought is the prime pusher that dictates all our actions both bodily and verbally. When there is right thought then our actions including our talking will be right one. Speech is derived from thought and when thought is right then speech will be right in its all aspect. We will not tell any lie if our thoughts are right. We will not tell harsh speech if our thoughts are right and free of any ill will. We will not tell divisive speech if we have right thought that is free of ill will filling with intention for division of loved ones. We will not tell any slendering or gossip or any non-sense speech if our thoughts are right in the first place. Because of right view, right thought has to set in and this again leads us to do right actions and right speech. Right actions and right speech are part of moral conduct and they are called sila. When we oberve in this way then our living will be free from earning resulted from not right actions and not right speech. This livelihood would be right livelihood. Right view leads to right thought and right thought leads to right action and right speech. When we are building up our sila and we are trying to be good and decent people trying to achieve higher nana or wisdom, there is no point to stay on faulty livelihood. Avoidance of bad actions and speeches when we are struggling for our living lead us to stay on right livelihood. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... 35265 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 2:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Hi, Icaro --- icaro franca wrote: ... > I think Gabriel is mentioning indeed the Newton´s > third law of dynamics... I could alert him that The > Abhidhamma is not a College science book, but now, > thanks to Connie and Nina, I got a better view of it. Oh, I see. You mean the idea that action and reaction are equal and opposite? (Or something like that ...) Such laws are postulated to explain certain observed behaviour, which they do very satisfactorily (I believe). The law of gravity would be another. The subject matter of the dhamma (suttas as well as abhidhamma) is something else altogether. Thanks for pointing out the intended meaning of the question. I'll look forward to Gabriel's further comments. Jon 35266 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 3:09pm Subject: Re: What is one quality when developed, brings all others to culmination? > I cannot say I am posting this out of experience here (or endorsing it), I am just relaying the existence of this Sutta. :-) 35267 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 5:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Dearest Friends, Thank you for all your answers and consideration. I am not intending to bring Western concepts of dynamics/physics into the Buddha's teaching! Also I do not see much use in too specific and too conceptual considerations on something that must be attained and realized by a "no-self"! Basically I would like to understand more the play of the basic understandings of mind and matter phenomena such as: .The laws which govern them - Kamma~Vipaka in Kusala, Akusala and Neutral versions. .The basic order of the causes and effects which result in the existence(s) and in the end of them(!), from both short term and long term points of view.(12 co-dependent arising ... I don't remember the name in english! :-( ) .The Abhidhamma's view and the concept of dhammas which still sounds quite confusing to me. When I asked about Kamma and Vipaka as mentioned in Abhidhamma, I was trying to see how is the analysis made in it.That's why I would love to have such a thing as a "Abhidhamma for Dummies". I hope you can understanding my demand not from an academic point of view but from a personal way of growing Right Understanding and building up Right Efforts towards the Path. I always get caught by the conception of a basic and background level from which the illusions, mind and matter phenomena arise, something like a simile: the DOS from which the Windows and all its programs and tasks emanate.But again I don't consider the DOS substantial itself: it is basically a group of programations (causes and conditions) ruled by commands taken by the user or a secondary program. If we take this analisys further on and on we will get to the basic 0's and 1's. I hope you understand me!From this point of view meditation would be a chance of observing your "Self XP or Ego 98" deeper and deeper until you get to the 0's and 1's from it and you attain a realisation that is indeed beyound this basic limitation, the unborn, the nibbana. Kindest Regards, Metta, Gabriel ICQ:56458224 MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Jonothan Abbott Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 05:54:11 +0800 (CST) Hi, Icaro --- icaro franca wrote: ... > I think Gabriel is mentioning indeed the Newton´s > third law of dynamics... I could alert him that The > Abhidhamma is not a College science book, but now, > thanks to Connie and Nina, I got a better view of it. Oh, I see. You mean the idea that action and reaction are equal and opposite? (Or something like that ...) Such laws are postulated to explain certain observed behaviour, which they do very satisfactorily (I believe). The law of gravity would be another. The subject matter of the dhamma (suttas as well as abhidhamma) is something else altogether. Thanks for pointing out the intended meaning of the question. I'll look forward to Gabriel's further comments. Jon 35268 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 7:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Howard, Gotta love this butting in business :-) > > I'm sure you agree, that you, Howard exist. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: ;-)) After I figure out exactly what that is supposed to mean, I'll let you know. Actually, Nori, no, I do not believe there is any such entity. I certainly meaningfully speak of "I" and "Howard," but the answer - truly - is "no". ----------------------------------------------- HH : Now I've got to find out what you mean by "truly". Not ultimate, I hope :-). Are there never occasions when there is thinking "Howard is doing this" or "This is happening to Howard". Wouldn't that, at those times, be tacit agreement to Nori's proposition that you, in that circumstance, exist? ======================== > > ...and don't take this personally, but if I smashed your skull in my > presence, I suspect that after you are gone, nothing in regards to > rupas in our presence would change. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: We don't agree on that. First of all, there is nothing but change in a sense. Secondly, rupas, whether "yours" or "mine" are not lasting substances. That's just not the way reality is, at least not as I view the "matter" ;-). ----------------------------------------------- HH : With regards to change, does everything change equally at all times, or do some things have more or less permanence than others? If seeing is impermanent, how can anything meaningful be said about the impermanence, or otherwise, of what gives rise to seeing? =============================== Now if your vinnana had anything > > to do with maintaining the rupas around us, should they not change ? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Nori, our perspectives are not even tangential. You are envisioning a substantial, common-sense world of lasting substances and objects. Whether or not there are "things" that are, as avoided in the Bahiya Sutta, "unseen", "unheard", "unsensed", and "uncognized," that is - "things" underlying mere phenomenaal elements of experience, is, in principle, unknowable and at most inferable. --------------------------------------------------------- HH : Isn't conditionality also just an inference? I would also question that only rupas are experienced. Rupas are arrived at by an analytic process, much the same way that conditions and namas are arrived at. I doubt that consciousness is experiencable, experience doesn't kick in until there is consciousness of consciousness. That's what I reckon, anyway :-) Kind Regards Herman 35269 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Dear Gabriel, If you have any question, even at the first Ch, most welcome, Nina op 08-08-2004 09:34 schreef Gabriel Nunes Laera op zopatenzin@h...: > I thank you very much for such useful answers! I will now dedicate a little > more time on the studies of the recommended texts, specially Nina's. 35270 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Nina, > > Weather is miserable today so I have skipped my afternoon walk and took the > time to read the dsg posts more carefully. I think there is a small > misunderstanding in what you said: > > Nina: > >The sort of assembly that is > >worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy > >of respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is > >this community of monks, such is this assembly. > N: yes, such texts always describe enlightened bhikkhus. > > Michael: > From the two suttas below it is possible to verify that not all of them have > to be enlightened to be a member of that assembly. In fact of the eight > individual types described below, which comprise the assembly worthy of > gifts, etc., only one type is fully enlightened, while the one practicing to > realize the fruit of stream entry has no realization whatsoever. Dear Michael and Nina, This is interesting and I would raise a question about the situation described in the sutta: Nina, I think you and some others here draw the conclusion that since an advanced disciple who is practicing sitting meditation is the subject of the sutta, that the implication is that the method of practicing mindfulness of breathing is meant only for such an advanced disciple. Please let me know if I am not reading you correctly. I know that Jon for one has expressed this view very directly. Isn't it possible that the advanced disciple in question here is an "examplar" of a technique that Buddha wants to highlight for all practitioners? It would not be uncommon, as it is in many classes, for a teacher to take a most advanced practitioner to the front of the room and use him to demonstrate the correct way to perform a technique that he wants all the members of the class to practice and learn. This is true in a math class, a yoga class, a basketball practice -- any class in which the teacher first will show the class how to do the problem correctly, using a competent student to demonstrate, and then will work with a number of other individuals to work out the individual problems that they have with the technique on their own level. Since there is nothing explicit in the text of the sutta saying that "one who is practicing this form of meditation is particularly suited to use breath as an object" it may be drawing the wrong conclusion to think that the teaching is exclusive of other practitioners. Along these same lines, I am sure that there are many instances in which Buddha gave similar instruction to many different individuals over the years, yet the anapanasati sutta was passed down as part of the canon, while many other events were not. Would it not be likely that this is because the Buddha and those who were charged with carrying his teachings forward put special emphasis on this talk? And wouldn't this perhaps imply that Buddha wanted many others, not just the most advanced disciples, to practice this technique? If the teaching were only meant for those who were most advanced and were already practicing sitting meditation [and if that were the reason that anapanasati were recommended] it seems to me that either the sutta would have been less widely circulated and perhaps would have remained a part of esoteric lore, rather than becoming a staple of the canon, or, alternatively, that the Buddha would have signified in the talk itself that this technique was not to be undertaken by the general practitioner, or by one who was schooled in other forms of meditation or Buddhist practice. Wonder what you may think about this. Best, Robert Ep. ====================== 35271 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 9:54pm Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > "He doesn't assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as > > possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the > > self as in consciousness. His consciousness changes &is unstable, > > but his consciousness doesn't -- because of the change &instability > > of consciousness -- alter in accordance with the change in > > consciousness. His mind is not consumed with any agitations born from > > an alteration in accordance with the change in consciousness or > > coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities. And > > because his awareness is not consumed, he feels neither fearful, > > threatened, nor solicitous." > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > IMO, this is a superb sutta, but the part you present here is the > least clear, and I believe you have misinterpreted it to take the mind as a kind > of immovable atman. My understanding of this bit of material is that it > expresses that the change and instability of consciousness does not lead to agitation > or fear in a mind that is freed of defilements. > --------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, What amazes me about the sutta -- which I am grateful came up in this discussion -- is the penetration and detail of the Buddha's understanding. Without turning consciousness into an object, he shows how to maintain equanimity and avoid attachment. I have copied the sutta into my database for further study. Best, Robert Ep. ============== 35272 From: Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/8/04 10:36:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Gotta love this butting in business :-) > > > > >I'm sure you agree, that you, Howard exist. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > ;-)) After I figure out exactly what that is supposed to mean, > I'll > let you know. > Actually, Nori, no, I do not believe there is any such entity. I > certainly meaningfully speak of "I" and "Howard," but the answer - truly > - is "no". > ----------------------------------------------- > > HH : Now I've got to find out what you mean by "truly". Not ultimate, I > hope :-). Are there never occasions when there is thinking "Howard is > doing this" or "This is happening to Howard". Wouldn't that, at those > times, be tacit agreement to Nori's proposition that you, in that > circumstance, exist? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I consider these locutions merely a manner of speaking. Conventionally, I certainly exist and am involved at the moment in writing that to you, but in reality - not so. I do not really think there is any entity involved. Sorry - I just just don't think so at all. -------------------------------------------- > > ======================== > > > > >...and don't take this personally, but if I smashed your skull in my > >presence, I suspect that after you are gone, nothing in regards to > >rupas in our presence would change. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > We don't agree on that. First of all, there is nothing but change > in a sense. Secondly, rupas, whether "yours" or "mine" are not lasting > substances. That's just not the way reality is, at least not as I view > the "matter" ;-). > ----------------------------------------------- > > HH : With regards to change, does everything change equally at all > times, or do some things have more or less permanence than others? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Beats me! ;-) The bottom line, as I see it, is that nothing remains. And more importantly, there is nothing whatsoever at all that exists *in and of itself*, even for a moment. --------------------------------------------- > > If seeing is impermanent, how can anything meaningful be said about the > impermanence, or otherwise, of what gives rise to seeing? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand you. (And, yes, seeing is impermanent.) ---------------------------------------------- > =============================== > > Now if your vinnana had anything > > >to do with maintaining the rupas around us, should they not change ? > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nori, our perspectives are not even tangential. You are > envisioning a > substantial, common-sense world of lasting substances and objects. > Whether or > not there are "things" that are, as avoided in the Bahiya Sutta, > "unseen", > "unheard", "unsensed", and "uncognized," that is - "things" underlying > mere > phenomenaal elements of experience, is, in principle, unknowable and at > most > inferable. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > HH : Isn't conditionality also just an inference? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Conditionalilty isn't the same as causality. But, yes, for me conditionality is an inference from observed cases. Perhaps for an arahant it is more. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > I would also question that only rupas are experienced. Rupas are arrived > at by an analytic process, much the same way that conditions and namas > are arrived at. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I experience hardness and I experience visual content, and I don't think that happens by an analytic process. ------------------------------------------------------- > > I doubt that consciousness is experiencable, experience doesn't kick in > until there is consciousness of consciousness. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Says who? Experience of sound is experience of sound, not of consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------- > > That's what I reckon, anyway :-) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- > > Kind Regards > > Herman > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35273 From: Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 6:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/9/04 1:10:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > Dear Howard, > What amazes me about the sutta -- which I am grateful came up in this > discussion -- is the penetration and detail of the Buddha's > understanding. Without turning consciousness into an object, he shows > how to maintain equanimity and avoid attachment. I have copied the > sutta into my database for further study. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is a great idea. This seems to be a sutta of great depth and subtlety, and well worth further study! ------------------------------------------------ > > Best, > Robert Ep. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35274 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 10:39pm Subject: To do or not to do Hi everyone, There is a reading of the texts that the Noble Eight Fold Path is descriptive. In this niche reading, the Noble Eightfold Path describes what is happening when jhana, magga, satipatthana come to fruition. The following is from Anguttara Nikaya XI.2 Cetana Sutta An Act of Will "For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release. " There are a number of provisos though, which boil down to the following. "For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue." It seems that a person who has not realized the knowledge and vision of release needs a bit of prescription, a bit of intentional attention to the virtue domain. From the context, this is intention and attention of the conventional kind. Gritting of the dentures may well be required :-) Kind Regards Herman 35275 From: Andrew Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 11:14pm Subject: Re: To do or not to do Hi Herman As you tried to elevate my ego the other day by suggesting I might be a judge, I'd like to sit in judgment on your latest piece, if you don't mind? (-: Actually, as to your main point, I will reserve my judgment. But in respect of this comment: > It seems that a person who has not realized the knowledge and vision of > release needs a bit of prescription, a bit of intentional attention to > the virtue domain. On my reading of the sutta, I think this comment is a non sequitur (it doesn't necessarily follow). Perhaps another way of making your point is to say that there are different levels of panna and weak levels can help condition stronger levels. Agree? I think I read something by Bhikkhu Bodhi suggesting that "shallow" (my adjective) sila is useful for conditioning kusala which, in turn, can condition the arising of the factors leading to enlightenment ie listening to the Dhamma, wise friends, reflecting, practice. Hope I haven't misquoted him off the planet! At the time, I was looking for a link-up between the prescribers and the describers - rather than doing what an American religious scholar I once quoted did and split the religion into two separate systems (kammic & nibbanic). Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation seemed to do that. Hope this helps. Case adjourned. All rise. Andrew 35276 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Ben. --- Benjamin Nugent wrote: > I am so very stupid and not at all knowledgable of your dhamma > philosophy > (*note the feigned ignorance). Does anybody know what a concept is? .... S: Some of us would say a concept can't be known because it isn't real. I was hoping you might respond to Ken H's and Herman's posts so we could get to know you and your ideas better. Why not introduce yourself a little -- tell us where you live and how you see the Buddha's teachings. Hope you find something of use and value here on DSG meanwhile;-). Metta (your comments noted;-)), Sarah ===== 35277 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2. Hi Swee Boon, I had meant to get back to your comments a little sooner....We were discussing the sutta from SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi transl] --- nidive wrote: SA:> > I'd be genuinely interested to know whether you read the following > > sutta as stressing anything other than `momentary sati' or direct > > momentary understanding of namas and rupas when they appear. > SB: > We are constantly seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and > thinking. Taking that sutta literally, it could not be talking about > "momentary sati". It is talking about sustained and continuous sati. > An arahant has perfect sati. An arahant's sati is not "momentary". An > arahant is mindful at all moments. ..... SA: To say that any sati or other mental state (even in an arahant) is not momentary, one would have to be ignoring any suttas which stress the speed of the mind and the shortness of wholesome states, not to mention ignoring the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. The same issue (of lasting consciousness) is given in the Katthavatthu. Indeed the truth about anicca, dukkha and anatta surely is that every conditioned citta, cetasika and rupa begins to fall away as soon as it has arisen, is thereby inherently unsatisfactory and cannot be controlled by any ‘self’. I gave a couple of quotes on the speed of the mind here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29088 ..... SB: > How does one train to make sati sustained and continuous? By taking up > one of the mindfulness immersed in the body practices. > > When one takes up one of those practices taught by the Buddha, one > trains sati to be sustained and continuous. When sati is sustained and > continuous, whether one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches or > thinks, if lust is present, he knows that lust is present; if lust is > absent, he knows that lust is absent; if hatred is present, he knows > that hatred is present; if hatred is absent, he knows that hatred is > absent; if delusion is present, he knows that delusion is present; if > delusion is absent, he knows that delusion is absent. .... SA: Rather than training sati to be ‘sustained and continuous’, I would say that the development of satipatthana is training sati to repeatedly arise and be aware of many different realities such as seeing hearing. lust, aversion and so on. I think it’s important to understand that sati, like all other mental phenomena has to arise and fall with the cittas it accompanies and doesn’t last for an instant. Otherwise, it’s bound to be an idea of sati that stays or continues, rather than being directly aware of different phenomena, one at a time. When there is seeing or hearing consciousness, there cannot be sati at these times (not for an arahant either), but the characteristics of these namas can be known immediately afterwards, when sati and panna arise in the javana process. .... SB: > Seeing thus, one understands with genuine wisdom. .... SA: Right, wisdom understands one reality momentarily and is then gone. of course, as wisdom develops, it will arise more frequently and penetrate deeper and deeper, but still its nature is to fall away instantly and never to last. I’d like to continue this discussion if we can. Btw, I liked your post on Sariputta. As you wrote: ‘Even if we could accumulate as much “wisdom through pondering” as Sariputta over many aeons of rebirths, the chance of meeting an arahant who could expound the Dhamma exquisitely to each of us personally is virtually nil.’ I also agree that ‘No control and no self doesn’t mean that nothing could be done. The Buddha did not teach us to be sitting ducks.’ You then went on to say that ‘He did teach us to be sitting meditators though.’ I would say that he taught us to be sitting, standing. walking and lying down meditators, using meditators here in the sense of those developing bhavana (samatha and vipassana) and without any idea of a self doing such developing. I’ll be glad to hear your further comments, Swee Boon. Metta, Sarah ======= 35278 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a good friend? Hi RobEp, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > wrote: > (AT:)> > We need to keep the ego out of Dhamma discussion as far as possible. But we mustn't be afraid of disagreement. <...> R: > Dear Sarah, > I wanted to highlight this very important point. There is a balance > that is sometimes difficult to achieve between "respectful discussion" > and "inauthentic agreement." The peace that is established by > compromising just for the sake of peace is not a real peace, it is a > false peace. It is necessary for conflict to arise and be met with > dispassionate determination to find the truth in order for doctrinal > disagreements to be worked out authentically. And to practice the > virtue of patience, which Buddha acknowledged as one of the most > difficult, in order to deal with the fact that they might not be > resolved in our lifetimes. <....> .... S: Like Nina, I wanted to say that I've greatly appreciated all your recent posts and your show of good friendship to us all. I agreed with all your comments and should just say that the words you replied to above were AndrewT's that I was quoting. I thought your other post on 'finding what we are looking for' by 'looking at our own reactions and following the Buddha's advice not to see them as emanating from anyone else's actions' were very good too. You also wrote: 'I don't have the sutta handy, but he said something to the effect that we should take an insult or upset with detachment and not see the person who insults or offends as the perpetrator of anything against us. To do so would be promoting the idea of a self that can be insulted, upset or harmed.' You may have been thinking of the sutta about the 'stale fare' which Visakkha refers to her father in law as eating. Your words were certainly not 'high and mightly', but the words of a good friend who is not afraid to point out the truth. As Howard said, 'you are such a good, sweet guy!!' -- and not even in the 'knonw off-list' elite group;-). Metta, Sarah ===== Pa.n.dita Vagga -- The Wise, (Translation by Ven. Nàrada) 1. Nidhãna’m' va pavattàra’m ya’m passe vajjadassina’m Niggayhavàdi’m medhàvi’m tàdisa’m pa.n.dita’m bhaje Tàdisa’m bhajamànassa seyyo hoti na pàpiyo. 76. ASSOCIATE WITH THE WISE WHO TRY TO CORRECT YOU 1. Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasure, points out faults and reproves; let one associate with such a wise person; it will be better, not worse, for him who associates with such a one. 76. Story The Venerable Sàriputta admitted a poor man into the Order as a mark of gratitude for a ladleful of food offered to him. The new monk was extremely obedient to his teacher and was ever so eager to receive advice that before long he attained Arahantship. The Buddha commented on his readiness to accept advice and exhorted the monks to emulate him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 35279 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) Hi Chris and Connie. > wrote: > > How come no one's answering? Are these trick questions? --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Thanks for your reply. No, they aren't trick questions - maybe they > aren't of interest to members. ... S: I don’t think one should ever assume any questions here aren’t of interest ;-) I’m glad that Connie picked up the thread and Connie, I’d be most grateful if you’d pick up any others that haven’t been answered anytime. .... CF:>I was trying, in a roundabout way, > to ask a question about Abortion without actually mentioning the > word. .... S: As usual, I think the questions come back to present cittas and panna. Clearly biological knowledge is not called for. Anyway, Jon and Connie have already added comments. The following passage is only indirectly relevant perhaps, but I’d like to requote it anyway: Nina wrote: We cling to kusala and to its result, take it for self. i heard some very good passages, just now from A. Sujin: > ***** Look forward to more of your Qs Chris and thanks to Connie again for her ‘mine-sweeper’ assistance, picking up any loose threads lying around;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 35280 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 1:26am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: To do or not to do Hi Andrew, I'll stick to my own interpretation, thanks all the same. I don't see any reason to read suttas through abhidhamma-coloured glasses. I could not see anything about panna or levels. And the idea of sila as momentary arising does not gel with me, I'm afraid. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Andrew [mailto:athel60@t...] Sent: Monday, 9 August 2004 4:15 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: To do or not to do Hi Herman As you tried to elevate my ego the other day by suggesting I might be a judge, I'd like to sit in judgment on your latest piece, if you don't mind? (-: Actually, as to your main point, I will reserve my judgment. But in respect of this comment: > It seems that a person who has not realized the knowledge and vision of > release needs a bit of prescription, a bit of intentional attention to > the virtue domain. On my reading of the sutta, I think this comment is a non sequitur (it doesn't necessarily follow). Perhaps another way of making your point is to say that there are different levels of panna and weak levels can help condition stronger levels. Agree? I think I read something by Bhikkhu Bodhi suggesting that "shallow" (my adjective) sila is useful for conditioning kusala which, in turn, can condition the arising of the factors leading to enlightenment ie listening to the Dhamma, wise friends, reflecting, practice. Hope I haven't misquoted him off the planet! At the time, I was looking for a link-up between the prescribers and the describers - rather than doing what an American religious scholar I once quoted did and split the religion into two separate systems (kammic & nibbanic). Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation seemed to do that. Hope this helps. Case adjourned. All rise. Andrew 35281 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 1:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hi Herman, ---------- HH : > What is found in the Pali Canon and Commentaries spans a thousand odd years of development of thought. ---------- Not according to the texts themselves. They say quite the opposite and, as students of those texts, that is all we need to know on the subject. ------------ H: > It should not surprise, then, that on a number of significant issues, what is taught in early Buddhism is markedly different to what is taught in the Theravadan scholastic period. There is not a unity of view in, say, the following: "This physical body made up of the four primary existents is seen to exist for one, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, hundred or more years. That which is called the mind, thought or consciousness arises as one thing and ceases as another whether by night or by day" (S.i.94-7) and The teaching that cittas have a specific time duration (1/17th, I think)compared to rupas (Abh somewhere, I'm sure). > ------------ KH: I am not competent to interpret suttas without the Commentaries, and I am not competent to interpret the Commentaries without Nina. :-) (Or Sarah, and I seem to remember Sarah's explaining the former paragraph quite recently. But, I don't know where.) In the meantime, let's look at your interpretation of those paragraphs. Actually, you don't give an interpretation: you just say there is `not a unity of view' in them. Why isn't there? Surely you don't think the former is saying the physical body lasts, unchanging, for up to 100 years? A child can tell you it doesn't. And what about the mind: are you saying the mind changes just once every twelve hours? Come off the grass, Herman! :-) ------------ H: > Just as another example, in the Nikayas, cetasika is to be found only in the singular. It is only in later works that it came to be used as plural and an ultimate category. > ------------- KH: I am not trying to be obtuse: I just don't see the problem. ------------- H: > I can go on and on. But my interest is not in the academic distilling of what the Buddha verbally taught from a thousand years of written speculative philosophy (an exercise bound to be perfected as educated guesswork). I am mainly interested in solving a particularly nasty problem. Existence. To the extent that something that is put forward points to a solution that works, I'm all ears. Anything that doesn't go to a solution, merely compounds the problem. Who needs it? Even if we all realised that we don't exist, that does not end dukkha, does it? > -------------- Are you troubled by the suffering of other species on other planets in other galaxies? No, and yet, that suffering is less remote from you than your own suffering is from an abiding self. Our only trouble is, we refuse believe it. -------- HH : > If the assurance of the scholastic cittavithi and paramattha dhamma theories merely acts as a suppressant to keep the crisis of the First Noble Truth from awareness, then the crisis remains. As long as the only reality we know is conditioned, we remain as stuffed as we ever were, regardless of whether we know it! > --------------- KH: But we don't know it, and that is the problem. If we did know that all conditioned dhammas were anicca, dukkha and anatta, we would be completely disinterested in them. "Tell someone who cares," would be our motto. :-) Or, to put it better: "Discourse to him of prodigious armaments assembled to besiege his city now or of the passing of a mule with gourds: `tis one." (I am told that was Browning's concept of the revived Lazarus.) -------------- HH: > . . . My son Tim will be heading up to Lismore for Uni early next year. We'll be heading up for some "getting to know the lay of the land" well before then. Who knows, our paths may yet cross. We don't eat much :-) > ------------- :-) Looking forward to it. What is mine, is yours. Kind regards, Ken H 35282 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 2:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) Hello Connie, and Nori, Yikes! sorry for getting my salutations mixed up - I was writing one post to each of you at the time. Talk about lack of mindfulness. Apologies. Can I plead 'extenuating circumstances' - my latest mouse escaped! What am I going to do with the mouse house, the bedding, all the food? I hope the cute little fella will be O.K. - it was down to minus 2C here last night - and that's cold for a sub-tropical mouse. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott 35283 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation Hi AndrewL, I was very glad to get your detailed feedback- you obviously consider and read deeply and there’s lots to discuss. I’ll try to give a few comments under sub-headings rather than intersperse comments this time as there’s so much in your post: Fake Smiles ========== No agenda here on smiles as such, but I think kusala and akusala follow each other so quickly and so of course it always comes back to the brief cittas. Only wisdom will know whether it’s with consideration and metta or not, for example. Deception in the system ================== If we are preoccupied at any time with society’s lies or the system’s deception and so on or other social/political considerations, we are likely to pave the way for ‘fiery hells’ ...... at these times we’re lost in a conceptual world without any understanding of present mind states. The perceptions of the ‘system’ may be correct in a conceptual sense, but pursuing them or rather, giving them importance, will not help us to understand Dukkha. Quite the contrary, when we take them for any kind of reality. (None of this is to suggest I don’t sympathise. I do.) Artificial Settings and Prisons ===================== Wherever we are, there are cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising by conditions. On an ultimate level, no situation is more artificial than any other and of course the real prison is created by lobha, dosa and moha with wrong views at the top of the list. Perhaps you can just treat the centre as a job centre (admittedly with bad pay, but then you can take the Visuddhimagga and other texts to work with you;-)). What I mean is that you wrote that ‘one is being conditioned away from one’s own self and attitudes and being ‘assimilated’. ‘ Jon might say this about working in Government offices for 20 years. The truth is that there is no self, merely conditioned dhammas arising and falling away as a result of complex conditions. Understanding dhammas rather than situations is the clue. It’s not any ‘entity’ that is responsible for shifting our lives ‘in an unnatural and forced direction’, but simply the kilesa (defilements) which we don’t wish to see most the time. Mindfulness and Oral Recitation ====================== You referred to ‘walking around campus developing mindfulness and doing oral recitation of body parts...’ as being more ‘renunciant’ than ‘sitting in the lounge eating bagels or going to all one’s groups...’. My question is why? It seems that you’re measuring mindfulness by the activity or circumstances rather than by the mental states arising. Can there not be mindfulness and renunciation while eating bagels and communicating with others? Surely mindfulness and renunciation have to be on the ‘inside’ not the ‘outside’ so to speak? Metta ===== I think it starts by considering others’ welfare. Just as we appreciate friendliness and genuine concern and care for our welfare, so do others. Just as we prefer a helpful, friendly shop assistant or stewardess on a flight, so do others. Just as we suffer and have difficulties and are susceptible to the worldly conditions, so are others. Care and concern and friendliness to those we meet or speak to or think about can be with metta. It’s light and easy and there are opportunities throughout the day without any special preparations. See posts under ‘metta’ in U.P. too. Taking a stand ============ You referred to doing yourself ‘a great disservice by not fully taking a stand on my own’. I think the more one appreciates that whatever stand one takes or doesn’t take is conditioned and not of any consequence in any ultimate sense, it helps to develop detachment. What’s already happened has gone. Forget it. Thinking about being the ‘lone renunciant’ or the ‘one thinking within the limits of society’ is merely that -- thinking. So awareness can be aware of ‘thinking’ as just another conditioned dhamma. The concepts or stories thought about are of no intrinsic value at all. A moment of awareness of thinking as anatta is of far greater value. Vipassana meditation ================ When we’re looking for instruction manuals or descriptions of practices to follow, I think ‘self’ is leading us off-track. If we look at the real meaning of vipassana (see under this heading in U.P.) we can see that it refers to wisdom -- wisdom which understands whatever conditioned dhammas are arising, namas and rupas, without any special selection with a desire for results for self. Craving and renunciation ================== So craving is the partner that with wisdom is gradually understood to be the cause of all our problems. Truly there is no self that can make it disappear, but by knowing the various dhammas, including craving, for what they are, the meaning of renunciation will gradually become clearer. This isn’t by forced ascetic practices or special routines, but by knowing the mental states and elements when they are apparent. If we think it can be achieved by ‘extra seclusion from society’, I think this is a dangerous view, as I tried to show in the Udana and other passages. Losing My Mind in those Groups ======================= Actually, I do sympathise a lot here. Here we can ‘zap’ or read quickly. You’re obviously very smart and well-read and the groups must often be a test of patience. Maybe you could start a Vism group! Seriously, glad you can take all your toys including notebook and texts.....just remember sati can arise anytime and so can metta;-). Let me know how it’s going...maybe you can give us the odd diary extract -- I’d be interested. I’m a bit rushed on this one, so no textual passages, but I’ll look forward to your further feedback and also hope to discuss the AN sutta you gave when I’ve found it. (In my earlier post to you, one of the references to Meghiya should have read Migajala with regard to living alone and secluded with seeing, hearing and so on whether in the city crowd or forest) Metta, Sarah ======== --- suicidal_one2004 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > --- suicidal_one2004 wrote: > > > Eh fake smiles aren't so hot ;) <....> 35284 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 4:14am Subject: Re: Anapanasati/ Jon Hi Eric (and Jon), Hope you don't mind me making some comments here. > J > The word of the Master, in whatever form or medium, is where my > interest lies ;-)) > > E> The Dhamma outside of words is where my interest lies. S: Are you Eric, interested in the Master's words? It is everyone's understanding that words point to realities and that these are what need to be understood directly. `Ignorance', `craving' and `wrong view' are three such realities described and which we often need to be reminded about, being precisely those that take us in to the wrong direction and blind us into thinking otherwise. These can be known directly with increasing familiarity, and come in different degrees and shades. In fact, without observing them in experience, I think we will be all the time influenced by them. But first we need to recognize them don't we? How will this happen if we are not told `about' them? And whose words would you rather listen to regarding ultimate objects of experience, your own or the Buddha's? > J> Not as I see it. I think what is being discussed here is how a > person who is developing anapanasati can *also* develop satipatthana > at the highest levels. > Rather than equating the two, he is explaining how the two can be > developed in tandem (quite a different matter). > > E: In theory yes. In practice quite a different matter. S: In practice, miccha or samma? > J> No, I'm not really saying that. But first, let me explain that > the reference to jhana is not my own but is the generally understood > interpretation of the sutta based, > > E: I thought you were interested in the word of > the Master. Why go to an interpreter? S: And we have to interpret too. So what if a commentator says it more clearly and elaborately than the Suttas, the interpreter in me still functions. In the end it would be the function of panna to understand what has been read, no? And would saying `yes' to the Suttas and `no' to commentaries because the former are the direct words of the Buddha and the latter are those of the so called `interpreters' necessarily a reflection of panna? Often it seems to me reading some people's insistence on relying solely on the Suttas that a seeming increase in trust and confidence in the Suttas arose not due to any insight or profound understanding, but rather because that person does not agree with the commentaries. Would changing the labels make any difference? I guess not, after all Saddha is in direct proportion to the level of panna and has little to do with which stories about the Buddha to believe. Seeing the Dhamma is seeing the Buddha, not the other way round. And the commentaries have surely made the slow ones like me, have better understanding of the dhamma, hence I believe, closer to the Buddha. > J> It seems likely to me that the Buddha's words were spoken mainly > for the benefit of the last group (they also being of the least > overall attainment among those present). > > E: Just like you and me huh? S: Are we skilled in Anapanasati? > J: But since they are already firmly established in mindfulness of > in-&-out breathing (anapanasati), the instruction he is to give will > not be an instruction on anapanasati per se, and certainly not for > beginners, but will show how insight can be developed at > the same time as anapanasati is being pursued and the jhanas are > being attained. > > E: Great, so stake your awareness at your breath for awhile > and then you are good to go. S: Jon has hinted at this all along and you must have sensed it too, but personally I think the question of whether to practice anapanasati or not is not so much a matter of personal choice or whether any of us is proficient at taking breath as object of `calm' or not, but rather whether we `believe' that it is essential or at least think that it accelerates the development of sati and panna. To state it directly, I think to make this kind of connection is `wrong view'. In which case, even if we *are* proficient at Anapanasati, we are not getting any closer to the attainment of vipassana. In fact at our level of understanding, the `self' has so much been built around the breath, `my breath', `heavy breathing', `choking', `nose', `mouth', `chest' and so on, that it is most likely that lobha, dosa and moha will be conditioned to arise each time there is any thinking about it. And if we don't see this danger but instead think that it will lead us to detachment from the idea of self, then we are encouraging wrong view and wrong practice. > J> This instruction is necessary because insight (and enlightenment) > consciousness cannot co-occur with jhana consciousness. > > E: More theories.... S: And are you proposing a new theory disproving this one, and doesn't this hint at the Buddha being no wholly correct? :-/ Please correct me if I have misread you. > J> Well, better to learn about what anapanasati is or isn't (as > referred to in the texts) > without having practised it, than to jump into the practice of > anapanasati without having first understood from the texts what it > is, don't you think? ;-)) > > E: Did all the monks mentioned in the sutta have texts? > See my last post to Ken about postponing the taking of > your first steps. S: The first step is `right intellectual understanding', and this has nothing to do with `attachment to `texts'', and whether if this has conditioned subsequent steps in the direction of actual experience or not is another matter. However if this first step is not appreciated, then any steps and leagues covered would more likely to have been in the wrong direction, imo. As for Ken's not taking the step that you prescribe, is I believe not because of uncertainty and doubt, but rather the perception that this would be looking in the wrong direction. (Ken if I am wrong about you, then just change that to Sukin. :-)) > J: However, there's lots to > know about anapanasati other than what's in that sutta, and I'd be > very happy to discuss it. > (Let's start at the beginning with a definition of terms. Are you OK > with 'samatha with breath as object' as a definition > of 'anapanasati'?) > > E I would simply say mindfulness of in and out breathing. S: What about "understanding" Eric? Isn't there always a danger of increasing one's ignorance, attachment and wrong view if there is no understanding of the object of meditation? And note, I am *not* talking about "theory" here! A belated welcome to DSG. I remembered seeing your email address somewhere, so I checked a Krishnamurti group to confirm. I am happy to see you here and have enjoyed your posts so far. :-) I still like much of what K. has said. Please expect some delay in response as I am busier these days than usual. Metta, Sukin. 35285 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Hi Gabriel!!! > > I am not intending to bring Western concepts of > dynamics/physics into the > Buddha's teaching! Also I do not see much use in too > specific and too > conceptual considerations on something that must be > attained and realized by > a "no-self"! ------------------------------------------------------ So let it be! As I´ve said to you, The Abhidhamma and others suttas or buddhistic canon texts hasn´t the aim to teach science...even Buddha explained that certain questions were out of his preaching scope: if universe is either finite or infinite, what´s time and movement and so on. I am only taking some insights in this matter... Abhidhamma won´t help me with my Engineering post-graduate homeworks!!!! > ------------------------------------------------------ > .The laws which govern them - Kamma~Vipaka in > Kusala, Akusala and Neutral > versions. ------------------------------------------------------ Dhammasangani, chapter 1 and some stanzas at the last chapter: Kusala Dhammas that lead to Nibbana are structured by, among other issues, bhumisu vipakas - kamma-vipakas that are "good". ------------------------------------------------------ > > .The basic order of the causes and effects which > result in the existence(s) > and in the end of them(!), from both short term and > long term points of > view.(12 co-dependent arising ... I don't remember > the name in english! :-( > ) ------------------------------------------------------ The paramount idea about causes and effects in buddhism is the dependent origination chain: it was the first form of Buddha´s thought just after his illumination under the Bodhi Tree at Bodhigaya (Vinaya, Mahavagga, first Khandaka) Every good buddhist, bhikkhus and laypersons, must have it at fingertips!!! ------------------------------------------------------ > .The Abhidhamma's view and the concept of dhammas > which still sounds quite > confusing to me. > > When I asked about Kamma and Vipaka as mentioned in > Abhidhamma, I was trying > to see how is the analysis made in it.That's why I > would love to have such a > thing as a "Abhidhamma for Dummies". > > I hope you can understanding my demand not from an > academic point of view > but from a personal way of growing Right > Understanding and building up Right > Efforts towards the Path. ------------------------------------------------------ Here at dsg you will find the best squad of noble dhamma students that don´t live at Northern Canada!!!Nina, Jon, Sarah, Connie, Sukin, Howard, Sukin and even me ( that sometimes deal on Abhidhamma as a child with a new toy..hahaha!!!) will give you the best support with your doubts and questions about Abhidhamma. Sila, Samadhi and Panna are the best foundations to build up Right Efforts towards the Path...a three -point landing that leads us from dynamics to statics...ops! I am taking a standard deviation again!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== 35286 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation on the Buddha Dear Nina, You wrote to Howard and JOn, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard and Jon, > op 07-08-2004 19:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > N: When you study the teachings and come to understand more, you feel > gratefulness to the Buddha. You can think with deep respect of his special > qualities: his wisdom, purity and compassion. This can be a natural thing, > no special time or place. Observing sila in the form of helping someone who > needs help, doing something for the sick and you remember that the Buddha > said that you care for him when you care for the sick. Many ways of thinking > of the Buddha to whom we owe so much. > Nina. Just today I read the Brahmayu Sutta for the first time, and it made the Buddha come 'more to life' for me. There is a lot a detail about him and this one in particular impressed me. "When seated indoors, he does not fidget with his hands. He does not fidget with his feet. He does not sit with his knees crossed. He does not sit with his ankles crossed. He does not sit with his hand holding his chin.........." While I was eating my lunch, I remembered what I had read this morning, and realised how much fidgeting was going on while I ate: looking around, jiggling my feet etc.etc. I had this thought that it was the defilements that caused all my 'jiggling' and that the Buddha, having no defilements had no reason to 'jiggle'. There were no conditions for him to do so. At this moment, it is my favourite sutta, because I feel like I 'know him a little better than before'. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 35287 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! hi Jon!!! > Oh, I see. You mean the idea that action and > reaction are equal and > opposite? (Or something like that ...) > > Such laws are postulated to explain certain observed > behaviour, which they > do very satisfactorily (I believe). The law of > gravity would be another. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, for sure!!! Rockets fly thanks to action/reaction law, equal and opposite one each other. You see, Jon, laws aren´t a matter of common sense: it´s a matter of inductive reasoning and conclusions. Gravitation showed up so many consistency of results and predictions that is really used today in all world!!! ------------------------------------------------------ > The subject matter of the dhamma (suttas as well as > abhidhamma) is > something else altogether. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes!!! Not physical science, for sure, but a mnatter of applied psychology almost at strict sense...but such scientifical concordances are intriguing, aren´t they? I think so... a new toy for a curious child! HAHAHAHAH!!! ------------------------------------------------------ > > Thanks for pointing out the intended meaning of the > question. I'll look > forward to Gabriel's further comments. ------------------------------------------------------ He posted that it wasn´t a physical science idea he had in mind, but nevermind (Bullwinkle strikes again!!!): he has many other questions. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== 35288 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 5:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Howard, Some more comments and questions below. > Gotta love this butting in business :-) > > > > >I'm sure you agree, that you, Howard exist. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > ;-)) After I figure out exactly what that is supposed to mean, > I'll > let you know. > Actually, Nori, no, I do not believe there is any such entity. I > certainly meaningfully speak of "I" and "Howard," but the answer - truly > - is "no". > ----------------------------------------------- > > HH : Now I've got to find out what you mean by "truly". Not ultimate, I > hope :-). Are there never occasions when there is thinking "Howard is > doing this" or "This is happening to Howard". Wouldn't that, at those > times, be tacit agreement to Nori's proposition that you, in that > circumstance, exist? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I consider these locutions merely a manner of speaking. Conventionally, I certainly exist and am involved at the moment in writing that to you, but in reality - not so. I do not really think there is any entity involved. Sorry - I just just don't think so at all. -------------------------------------------- No need to apologise. If that's the way you see it, that's the way you see!! I am having a problem gauging what different people mean/intend when they use the word real, and I hope that the more I keep asking, the sooner I will understand. > ----------------------------------------------- > > HH : With regards to change, does everything change equally at all > times, or do some things have more or less permanence than others? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Beats me! ;-) The bottom line, as I see it, is that nothing remains. And more importantly, there is nothing whatsoever at all that exists *in and of itself*, even for a moment. --------------------------------------------- My view is opposite, namely nothing disappears, but forms certainly change. I agree on your second, more important, point. > > If seeing is impermanent, how can anything meaningful be said about the > impermanence, or otherwise, of what gives rise to seeing? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand you. (And, yes, seeing is impermanent.) ---------------------------------------------- What I meant was that seeing is said to require nama, rupa and eye base. With any of the three missing, there is no seeing. Now, if one of the three is impermanent, say, nama, how can anything be said about the permanence or otherwise of rupa or eyebase. There is seeing whilst nama (and rupa and eyesense) is present, and zippo when nama ceases. Nothing to be said about whether colour or eyesense disappeared with it. Whether rupa is impermanent or not is unknown if either nama or eyesense are impermanent. > =============================== > > Now if your vinnana had anything > > >to do with maintaining the rupas around us, should they not change ? > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nori, our perspectives are not even tangential. You are > envisioning a > substantial, common-sense world of lasting substances and objects. > Whether or > not there are "things" that are, as avoided in the Bahiya Sutta, > "unseen", > "unheard", "unsensed", and "uncognized," that is - "things" underlying > mere > phenomenaal elements of experience, is, in principle, unknowable and at > most > inferable. > > I would also question that only rupas are experienced. Rupas are arrived > at by an analytic process, much the same way that conditions and namas > are arrived at. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I experience hardness and I experience visual content, and I don't think that happens by an analytic process. ------------------------------------------------------- > > I doubt that consciousness is experiencable, experience doesn't kick in > until there is consciousness of consciousness. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Says who? Experience of sound is experience of sound, not of consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------- I do :-) Are there conditions for hardness, smell, taste , sights to be experienced whilst absorbed in a sound object? I say yes. The only thing missing is the attention. The brain is conscious of all senses at the same time and directs a strictly limited awareness to where it will. This is consciousness of consciousness of whatever object. Ever arrived at a destination, totally oblivious to everything you saw and felt and did to get there, whilst absorbed in thought. Do you think that the world of sights, sounds, feelings etc wasn't there while you weren't aware of it? And what guided your arms and feet to navigate you collision-free from a to b? > > That's what I reckon, anyway :-) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman 35289 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 6:03am Subject: Developing six qualities Hi all, The Buddha exhorts the householder Mahanama in Anguttara Nikaya XI.12 to recollect the devas, amongst other things. Being a householder, this could apply to me. But I just can't recollect devas. Not a single one. Anyone else have any luck? Kind Regards Herman 35290 From: seisen_au Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 6:17am Subject: Perception of repulsiveness Hi All, The below is a short section from "The Buddhas Teaching on Wholesome Deeds" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, translated from Thai by Nina. ==== S.The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements. W. : What are these four meditation subjects? S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of metta (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death. ==== What is 'perception of repulsiveness' refering to? Repulsivness in nutriment? The 32 aspects of the body? Foulness kammatthana(the dead body contemplations), all 3 or something else? Anyone know a Sutta where these four subjects are taught as being suitable for layfollowers? Thanks Steve 35291 From: Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/9/04 9:07:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Beats me! ;-) The bottom line, as I see it, is that nothing > remains. > And more importantly, there is nothing whatsoever at all that exists *in > and of > itself*, even for a moment. > --------------------------------------------- > > My view is opposite, namely nothing disappears, but forms certainly > change. > I agree on your second, more important, point. > ========================== I think it's very good that you see clearly, even to the point of expressing clearly that this is how you see the matter. This is a well established view held by many (if I properly understand you) - namely that there is an unchanging "substance" underlying superficial, changing form. It is not, I believe, a Dhammic view - but that's fine. (No disparagement implied.) The Sarvastivadins had a similar position, though not quite the same. BTW, I seem to recall having read an understanding quite similar to yours expressed by the great (Advaita) Vedantist, Shankara. It *may* have been in his Crest Jewel of Discrimination. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35292 From: Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/9/04 9:07:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > What I meant was that seeing is said to require nama, rupa and eye base. > With any of the three missing, there is no seeing. Now, if one of the > three is impermanent, say, nama, how can anything be said about the > permanence or otherwise of rupa or eyebase. There is seeing whilst nama > (and rupa and eyesense) is present, and zippo when nama ceases. Nothing > to be said about whether colour or eyesense disappeared with it. > > Whether rupa is impermanent or not is unknown if either nama or eyesense > are impermanent. > ========================== On one occasion, hardness is present. Later it is not. That prior hardness didn't remain. That makes it impermanent. You, I suspect, presume some thingy called "hardness" existing on its own as an entity existing "somewhere", which remains and that our "consciousness" may visit from time to time. But that, as I see it, is not part of our experience - what is experienced is that there is now hardness, and later there is not. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35293 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation on the Buddha Hi Howard, op 08-08-2004 16:48 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: ... At one point in my life, I went > through a period in which I was falsely led to believe that I was likely to > die from > an illness that, in fact, I didn't have. I got through this period without > any mental anguish at all, having consciously decided, and having managed, to > avoid *hope* and to accept however things would turn out. N: I appreciate this. It is wonderful that you did not feel anguish and could stay so calm. There must have been conditions for this. It is so human to have anxiety in a case like that. I remember when I just had entered DSG you were sick for quite some time, not being able to post, and Sarah inquired. H:...After the fact, however, I did have a "reaction" - one of joyous > gratefulness to the Buddha for showing us what dukkha is about. I remember > writing paeons > of adoration aimed at the Buddha in emails I sent (maybe to DSG, maybe > elsewhere). N: That is your kusala citta, by conditions. Can you share a former Email, if possible? H: With the foregoing having been said, I still think that in order for > Buddhanupassana (if that is correct Pali) to be effective as a meditation > subject requires special training, and it is the context of meditative > training > that is the issue at hand. N: In the Vis Ch VII (p. 206) there is a description for those who like to meditate longer on this subject, the Buddhanussati. It is worth reading anyway. the Blessed one is such. Each line is a special contemplation or meditation. Just reciting the text is not enough, it should be understood and also taken to heart. We read: I recently mentioned that an ariyan can be only successful, but he cannot reach jhana, only access with this subject, since it is too deep. The wisdom of the ariyan is such that he has an absolute confidence in the Triple Gem, great assurance and no doubt at all. Because of his direct understanding of realities the concentration and calm with this subject come very naturally. When we have attained enlightenment only we know the Buddha. We come to understand more the deep meaning of Buddha, Enlightened one, Awakened one. We read that Anathapindika heard: "Buddha" and something stirred within him: Buddha, Buddha. It is so rare that a Buddha arises in the world. His former accumulations also conditioned his being stirred by the word Buddha. It was like a recognition. He listened and became a sotapanna. For those who want to take up this Recollection as a meditation subject, if I can help with the texts, welcome. Nina. 35294 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions ... Basic doubts... Basic ignorance! Dear Gabriel, op 09-08-2004 02:48 schreef Gabriel Nunes Laera op zopatenzin@h...: > .The Abhidhamma's view and the concept of dhammas which still sounds quite > confusing to me. N: Where especially do you find it confusing? G: When I asked about Kamma and Vipaka as mentioned in Abhidhamma, I was trying > to see how is the analysis made in it.That's why I would love to have such a > thing as a "Abhidhamma for Dummies". N: We all are learning and dummies. It does not matter. When you tell a lie it is kamma through speech. It is actually the intention that makes the deed, it is mental. It falls away with the citta but it is accumulated in the continuous stream of cittas arising and falling away from moment to moment, succeeding one another without a break. That is why the force of that kamma that belongs to the past can condition the arising of a result, vipaka, later on. That result is the experience of an unpleasant object through one of the senses. Nina. 35295 From: Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation on the Buddha Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/9/04 1:48:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > H:...After the fact, however, I did have a "reaction" - one of joyous > >gratefulness to the Buddha for showing us what dukkha is about. I remember > >writing paeons > >of adoration aimed at the Buddha in emails I sent (maybe to DSG, maybe > >elsewhere). > N: That is your kusala citta, by conditions. Can you share a former Email, > if possible? > ======================== I'm not sure I can find it. I will look. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35296 From: Andrew Levin Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repulsiveness of the body meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > I was very glad to get your detailed feedback- you obviously consider and > read deeply and there's lots to discuss. Only to get to what matters, Sarah. > > Fake Smiles > ========== > No agenda here on smiles as such, but I think kusala and akusala follow > each other so quickly and so of course it always comes back to the brief > cittas. Only wisdom will know whether it's with consideration and metta or > not, for example. Right, well, I thought we were talking about the routine fake smile which is, circumstances reveal themselves, each party realizes circumstances presenting themselves are unfortunate indeed, smile as we part as if things were OK and we were going to be happy. That's the kind of fake smile I was referring to. You may be talking more like, someone does or says something with an unfavorable mind, and we, as ascetics, bear it with patience or even go a step further and show a display of kindness towards someone. That is OK if you can do it I guess, but I was referring to the former or even the middle ground, it's just fakeness. Fakeness doesn't work. But pretty off topic :) > > Deception in the system > ================== > If we are preoccupied at any time with society's lies or the system's > deception and so on or other social/political considerations, we are > likely to pave the way for `fiery hells' ...... at these times we're lost > in a conceptual world without any understanding of present mind states. Good point. But you know, and realize that I've read through your post already, so this refers to all instances of society, sitting back and being conditioned, or even trying to be mindful during the conditioning is not our only option. Try to visualize what I'm envisioning here; end of MN 130, Devaduta Sutta, The Divine Messengers "Though warned by divine messengers, Full many are the negligent [in doing good], And people may sorrow long indeed Once gone down to the lower world. But when by the divine messengers Good people here in this life are warned, They do not dwell in negligence, But practise well the noble Dhamma. Clinging they look upon with fear For it produces birth and death; And by not clinging they are freed In the destruction of birth and death. They dwell in bliss for they are safe And reach Nibbana here and now They are beyond all fear and hate; They have escaped all suffering." Now I'm age 21, seems like I should be 16. I believe I've seen the first divine messenger, the sign of old age, last year. Ever been to a Theravada temple, and men sitting at the roots of trees, or on a rock, free, in open spaces, with an enlightened glow around their heads, painted on the walls? That's how people have practised the dharma in times of old. I practised Dharma not dissimilarly. I learned vipassana, I practised it at home, and I took it out with me to the streets, seeing the impermanent nature of my surroundings, the street, learning about my mind and developing wisdom, practising as I went. This was how I practised. Now I have an external entity, as it were, taking hold of my life, and turning me in another direction entirely. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say I'm a slave. So how can I practise the dharma well when I'm not able to go where I like or able to make the major decisions in my life? Modern day society is not allowing for the practise of dharma as it was practised traditionally in all cases: having to walk a mile to this program every day, or take a cab, then go to groups, take a specified amount of drugs, and sit at my computer (because Ive been taken off, literally, for little more than sitting lotus posture in my own room), when I get home, able to do next to nothing, is not giving me the ability to practise well the noble dharma. Now the hell-wardens wouldn't take this an excuse, as scripture has said similarly of the difficulty of practising in the household life vs in the homeless life. So it can be up to me to take matters into my own hands and ensure I do things right. This can work in any number of ways, not all of which I think are appropriate to discuss here. > The perceptions of the `system' may be correct in a conceptual sense, but > pursuing them or rather, giving them importance, will not help us to > understand Dukkha. Quite the contrary, when we take them for any kind of > reality. (None of this is to suggest I don't sympathise. I do.) But isn't the system in reality hindering our practise of dharma, or am I the one responsible for not seeing through 'reality' to its ultimate characteristics when I was taken from my bedroom floor, slapped with handcuffs, and taken by ambulence to locked unit? Was I responsible for not using that as an enlightenment moment, or are 'they' responsible for carrying me off to an unsuitable location? Or if they are not responsible, is it then not my responsibility to practise dharma regardless of what 'they' tell me I should do now that I'm on the outside? > > Artificial Settings and Prisons > ===================== > Wherever we are, there are cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising by > conditions. On an ultimate level, no situation is more artificial than any > other and of course the real prison is created by lobha, dosa and moha > with wrong views at the top of the list. Perhaps you can just treat the > centre as a job centre (admittedly with bad pay, but then you can take the > Visuddhimagga and other texts to work with you;-)). What I mean is that > you wrote that `one is being conditioned away from one's own self and > attitudes and being `assimilated'. ` Jon might say this about working in > Government offices for 20 years. The truth is that there is no self, > merely conditioned dhammas arising and falling away as a result of complex > conditions. Certainly, but we can say there is a living being discernable among these complex conditions who is being carried away and made to stay in what is possible an unsuitable locale to his long-term welfare; just as Buddha has discerned and told us of hell, there is a being who is taken, dropped in a couldron of molten metal, and swirled up, down, and around, from among complex causes and conditions arising and vanishing. (Excuse me for harping on the hell realms here, MN 129 & 130 have had a pretty big impact on me; just saying we shouldn't let the fact that there is no being, that things are made up of complex causes and conditions, turn us nihilistic towards conventional reality). And Jon feeling the same assimilation as I doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In fact it just makes the point stronger; this is the nature of a large group, this is the nature of society. It's not how I want it, but again, I'll keep my own and practise rightly when the time comes. > Understanding dhammas rather than situations is the clue. It's > not any `entity' that is responsible for shifting our lives `in an > unnatural and forced direction', but simply the kilesa (defilements) which > we don't wish to see most the time. Alright, there is some entity shifting my life in an unnatural direction (what can be more natural than taking long walks on the Earth while meditating?), but I'm granting you that we can/should take responsibility for ourselves in being mindful of dhammas in the midst of all that is going on regardless. This is an approach I have not taken. In fact I would be pleased if you could give me some detailed ideas on how to practise mindfulness of mind in this manner in my day-to-day routine, including during eating bagels and being in groups. > Mindfulness and Oral Recitation > ====================== > You referred to `walking around campus developing mindfulness and doing > oral recitation of body parts...' as being more `renunciant' than `sitting > in the lounge eating bagels or going to all one's groups...'. My question > is why? It seems that you're measuring mindfulness by the activity or > circumstances rather than by the mental states arising. Can there not be > mindfulness and renunciation while eating bagels and communicating with > others? Surely mindfulness and renunciation have to be on the `inside' not > the `outside' so to speak? See, I'm seeing the society/hospital as a conditioning factor in which people are unmindful. The conditioning then is supposed to work to restore some degree of health, but it is not a Buddhist approach. Working from 'inside' I have to increase my own mindfulness within. Bagels inside a hospital is unmindful, walking around campus reciting body parts helps me develop mindfulness (yes it's true, maybe just because it provides me with 'a' direction or purpose rather than wandering around aimlessly). What am I going to communicate to the other patients while eating bagels but idle chatter which, to engage in, is probably the single-most destructive thing I have done to myself over the course of my treatment with this hospital? Food is only an indulgence or escape for me. Would be better to sit on the chair and practise patience or try to get mindfulness of breathing going. > Metta > ===== > I think it starts by considering others' welfare. Just as we appreciate > friendliness and genuine concern and care for our welfare, so do others. > Just as we prefer a helpful, friendly shop assistant or stewardess on a > flight, so do others. Just as we suffer and have difficulties and are > susceptible to the worldly conditions, so are others. Care and concern and > friendliness to those we meet or speak to or think about can be with > metta. It's light and easy and there are opportunities throughout the day > without any special preparations. > > See posts under `metta' in U.P. too. Yeah I often find myself caught up in mischief, and as dhammapada says, be quick to do what is morally beautiful, or the mind, delighting in evil, will catch you. So sometimes when I just look at people naturally I will feel that is less evil than looking at a wall and thinking on something else. Sometimes I can get feelings of kinship going or just noticing similarities, I imagine getting sympathy or metta going would really start to be on the positive side. > > Taking a stand > ============ > You referred to doing yourself `a great disservice by not fully taking a > stand on my own'. I think the more one appreciates that whatever stand one > takes or doesn't take is conditioned and not of any consequence in any > ultimate sense, it helps to develop detachment. What's already happened > has gone. Forget it. Thinking about being the `lone renunciant' or the > `one thinking within the limits of society' is merely that -- thinking. Sarah. I said my *awareness* shifts between that of the lone renunciant or one who is thinking within the limits of society. Not my thoughts, though those may shift too. It's almost impossible to reconcile the two. I don't know how severe of a problem that can be but I have a feeling it can be very bad in the end. Maybe if the thinking is just of two different types doesn't /have/ to constitute a problem but I don't know. So > awareness can be aware of `thinking' as just another conditioned dhamma. > The concepts or stories thought about are of no intrinsic value at all. A > moment of awareness of thinking as anatta is of far greater value. Good (seriously). Now how can I cultivate awareness? Any way besides breath meditation? 'Cause that hasn't been working for me for quite some time now. Non-conceptual awareness is something I have valued a lot in the past and I would loove to have it back, so I'm open to suggestions. :) > > Vipassana meditation > ================ > When we're looking for instruction manuals or descriptions of practices to > follow, I think `self' is leading us off-track. If we look at the real > meaning of vipassana (see under this heading in U.P.) we can see that it > refers to wisdom -- wisdom which understands whatever conditioned dhammas > are arising, namas and rupas, without any special selection with a desire > for results for self. Have to inform 'self' how to eradicate notion of 'self' right? But it seems you are saying vipassana is the wisdom that is seeing the rise and fall of things. I suppose this can come naturally, if we let it, or give ourselves some object of meditation to center on, such as the breath. Perhaps I tend to be too 'bookish,' but I once had vipassana right and was on track for liberation, but now am not and want to study and get my understanding straight and practise the four foundations of mindfulness correctly so as to be able to be on the right course to attainments here and now. And I can't see it beginning any other way than with at least some sitting meditation to go through the insight-knowledges. Am I wrong here about how this should procede? > > Craving and renunciation > ================== > So craving is the partner that with wisdom is gradually understood to be > the cause of all our problems. Truly there is no self that can make it > disappear, but by knowing the various dhammas, including craving, for what > they are, the meaning of renunciation will gradually become clearer. This > isn't by forced ascetic practices or special routines, but by knowing the > mental states and elements when they are apparent. If we think it can be > achieved by `extra seclusion from society', I think this is a dangerous > view, as I tried to show in the Udana and other passages. Fair enough, isolating myself won't be renunciation. As I learned renunciation, it is renunciation opposing the indulgence, or tendency to give in to the temptation of sensuality, sort of a self-denial and taking hold of onesself for the higher good, but I do appreciate that it has a dual meaning in that it can also refer to one's mind being free from attachment craving. Re: Craving, How can we cut off craving? In dependent origination, feeling is the factor immediately proceeding craving. So is it by mindfulness of feelings, or can we cut it out with wisdom, seeing the true nature of reality, that nothing is worth clinging to, ie as an insight, or do we have to actually dig down and root out craving, and prevent it from further arising? Thanks. > > Losing My Mind in those Groups > ======================= > Actually, I do sympathise a lot here. Here we can `zap' or read quickly. > You're obviously very smart and well-read and the groups must often be a > test of patience. Maybe you could start a Vism group! Seriously, glad you > can take all your toys including notebook and texts.....just remember sati > can arise anytime and so can metta;-). > Oh, it's not so hot. I am not in a mental state where I can understand things very often, the Vism is a chore sometimes when I'm unable, and the music just gets stuck in my head. I love having sati arise, it comes especially when I take long walks... just last time I was accosted by EMS workers and NYPD when I was having one of those happy walks, but I got out of the hospital that same night after 7 viles of blood and some deliberation by the doctors on whether or not to keep me so it was OK :) And thanks for the compliments. I do, however, feel that while I may be well-read, that I don't always read things correctly or with a proper mind-state to put things in context and gain an understanding, but I do what I can. Often I evil feel the way I go about things is evil, but what can you do? > Let me know how it's going...maybe you can give us the odd diary extract > -- I'd be interested. > If something good comes up I'll post it here. > I'm a bit rushed on this one, so no textual passages, but I'll look > forward to your further feedback and also hope to discuss the AN sutta you > gave when I've found it. (In my earlier post to you, one of the references > to Meghiya should have read Migajala with regard to living alone and > secluded with seeing, hearing and so on whether in the city crowd or > forest) This is the alternate meaning of renunciation, right? Living alone even when in a crowd, whereas a person without renunciation is said to dwell with a companion (craving) even while in physical solitude. Always good talking with you, Sarah, and please, take your time, I'm in no rush to get this thread over with or anything. peace, andrew levin (skin teeth nails head hair body hair day II :P) 35297 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hey Sukin, S> Hope you don't mind me making some comments here. You are more than welcome. > J > The word of the Master, in whatever form or medium, is where my interest lies ;-)) > > E> The Dhamma outside of words is where my interest lies. S: Are you Eric, interested in the Master's words? Less and less with each day! S But first we need to recognize them (the Master's words) don't we? Then what? S> How will this happen if we are not told `about' them? How many times do we need to be told? S> And whose words would you rather listen to regarding ultimate objects of experience, your own or the Buddha's? Neither, I am more interested in the knowledge and vision as things actually are. > J> Not as I see it. I think what is being discussed here is how a > person who is developing anapanasati can *also* develop satipatthana > at the highest levels. > Rather than equating the two, he is explaining how the two can be > developed in tandem (quite a different matter). > > E: In theory yes. In practice quite a different matter. S: In practice, miccha or samma? Does it make much of a difference? Who is to draw the line? > J> No, I'm not really saying that. But first, let me explain that > the reference to jhana is not my own but is the generally understood > interpretation of the sutta based, > > E: I thought you were interested in the word of > the Master. Why go to an interpreter? S: And we have to interpret too. So what if a commentator says it more clearly and elaborately than the Suttas, the interpreter in me still functions. In the end it would be the function of panna to understand what has been read, no? And would saying `yes' to the Suttas and `no' to commentaries because the former are the direct words of the Buddha and the latter are those of the so called `interpreters' necessarily a reflection of panna? Often it seems to me reading some people's insistence on relying solely on the Suttas that a seeming increase in trust and confidence in the Suttas arose not due to any insight or profound understanding, but rather because that person does not agree with the commentaries. Would changing the labels make any difference? I guess not, after all Saddha is in direct proportion to the level of panna and has little to do with which stories about the Buddha to believe. Nor about the belief about what a commentator has to say. Remember the advice to the Kalamas? S> Seeing the Dhamma is seeing the Buddha, not the other way round. And the commentaries have surely made the slow ones like me, have better understanding of the dhamma, hence I believe, closer to the Buddha. The Buddha or the Buddha's words? > J> It seems likely to me that the Buddha's words were spoken mainly > for the benefit of the last group (they also being of the least > overall attainment among those present). > > E: Just like you and me huh? S: Are we skilled in Anapanasati? One tries and tries again... > J: But since they are already firmly established in mindfulness of > in-&-out breathing (anapanasati), the instruction he is to give will > not be an instruction on anapanasati per se, and certainly not for > beginners, but will show how insight can be developed at > the same time as anapanasati is being pursued and the jhanas are > being attained. > > E: Great, so stake your awareness at your breath for awhile > and then you are good to go. S: Jon has hinted at this all along and you must have sensed it too, but personally I think the question of whether to practice anapanasati or not is not so much a matter of personal choice or whether any of us is proficient at taking breath as object of `calm' or not, but rather whether we `believe' that it is essential or at least think that it accelerates the development of sati and panna. To state it directly, I think to make this kind of connection is `wrong view'. In which case, even if we *are* proficient at Anapanasati, we are not getting any closer to the attainment of vipassana. Read the post from Nori...i.e. ONE FACTOR!!! S> In fact at our level of understanding, the `self' has so much been built around the breath, `my breath', `heavy breathing', `choking', `nose', `mouth', `chest' and so on, that it is most likely that lobha, dosa and moha will be conditioned to arise each time there is any thinking about it. And if we don't see this danger but instead think that it will lead us to detachment from the idea of self, then we are encouraging wrong view and wrong practice. Dont be afraid Sukin. Your breath wont harm you. > J> This instruction is necessary because insight (and enlightenment) > consciousness cannot co-occur with jhana consciousness. > > E: More theories.... S: And are you proposing a new theory disproving this one, and doesn't this hint at the Buddha being no wholly correct? :-/ Please correct me if I have misread you. Kill the Buddha! > J> Well, better to learn about what anapanasati is or isn't (as > referred to in the texts) > without having practised it, than to jump into the practice of > anapanasati without having first understood from the texts what it > is, don't you think? ;-)) > > E: Did all the monks mentioned in the sutta have texts? > See my last post to Ken about postponing the taking of > your first steps. S: The first step is `right intellectual understanding', and this has nothing to do with `attachment to `texts'', and whether if this has conditioned subsequent steps in the direction of actual experience or not is another matter. However if this first step is not appreciated, then any steps and leagues covered would more likely to have been in the wrong direction, imo. As for Ken's not taking the step that you prescribe, is I believe not because of uncertainty and doubt, but rather the perception that this would be looking in the wrong direction. (Ken if I am wrong about you, then just change that to Sukin. :-)) The only reason there is a first step is to take a 2nd step. Are we to be like those who practice aerobics in a gym i.e. continuously taking the first step? > J: However, there's lots to > know about anapanasati other than what's in that sutta, and I'd be > very happy to discuss it. > (Let's start at the beginning with a definition of terms. Are you OK > with 'samatha with breath as object' as a definition > of 'anapanasati'?) > > E I would simply say mindfulness of in and out breathing. S: What about "understanding" Eric? Isn't there always a danger of increasing one's ignorance, attachment and wrong view if there is no understanding of the object of meditation? And note, I am *not* talking about "theory" here! Nothing is for certain Sukin. What have you got of value to lose? S > A belated welcome to DSG. I remembered seeing your email address somewhere, so I checked a Krishnamurti group to confirm. I am happy to see you here and have enjoyed your posts so far. :-) I still like much of what K. has said. :-) Thanks Sukin, me too! S > Please expect some delay in response as I am busier these days than usual. No worries. We are all busy! PEACE E 35298 From: connieparker Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: Five conditions of panatipata (Killing) No problem on the names, Chris. > Can I plead 'extenuating circumstances' - my latest mouse escaped! Maybe prompted by some fear of actually meeting Old Smokey? Gotta be careful about letting the little ingrates know you think you've got proprietary rights, you know, especially the pampered ones. Or maybe not so ungrateful, (s)he might've had other obligations and could be out attracting other roomers your way by word of mouse and your innkeeping supplies will still be useful. Assuming others would believe such a tale and don't ostracize the little liar. Our Tibetan monks and a few other friends were buying up and releasing all the worms Wal-Mart had for the fishermen. (I wonder if fishing season is over since Wal-Mart has lifted the 15 dozen per visit limit recently). There've been a few stories of happy birds and wondering how far we're responsible for 'unforeseen results of good intentions'. Not to ignore #3: there must be an intention to cause death, but I think we're confusing things a bit and there are no bad results of good. The bad causes are already all mixed up in with the few flashes of kusala cetana we claim for the whole good deed. I think for the most part, the long past has more to do with the immediate future than anything we've just now done... thinking about the 7 javanas and when their results ripen as well as there being no single causes or results (not that any single conventional story is really a single thing). Truly, kamma is imponderable and the realm of Buddha's and we just do the best we can according to our understanding. Still, I keep believing my "I did this and then that happened" direct cause interpretations of things. My creator god complex? And while the bad results are 'unforeseen', we seem willing enough to take credit for any good. peace, connie 35299 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: Nama and Rupa as a 'gift' (was: very disturbing sutta) Dear Sarah, We wrote: Antony: Thanks for the birthday gift analogy. Gratitude is very helpful in overcoming dosa (anxiety, guilt, worry and depression) .... S: I'm not sure how far we can take the analogy, but perhaps we can consider each presently arising nama or rupa as a 'gift' to be known right now. Past gifts have gone and future ones not yet arisen. ========== So although nama and rupa are dukkha the Buddha didn't deny conditioned happiness. There are the sobhana (sp?) beautiful cetasikas which are sankhara dukkha right? Ajahn Sumedho wrote: "This community is not bubbling up with feelings of devotion. It is quite formal and restrained in its form and its expression. But then this does not necessarily deny love. With mindfulness, with the way we relate - to our own bodies, to the Sangha, to the lay people, to the tradition, and to the society - there is an openness, kindness, and receptivity. There is caring, a joyfulness and compassion that we can feel. It is still anicca and anatta, and it is dukkha in the sense that it's not in itself the end of anything; it's not satisfying as an identity or an attachment. But when the heart is free from illusions of self, then there arises a loving quality in the pure joy of being. It's not expected to be anything or anybody; neither is it expected to last, or be permanent. It is not to be made anything of. It's just the natural way of things. So when you contemplate in that way, that is the way of faith and trust and devotion." (from "A Time to Love" in "The Way it is") http://www.amaravati.org/abm/english/documents/the_way_it_is/25atl.html =========== Is Nibbana, the deathless, a living presence that gives us happiness and peace of mind? Is it something we can already be grateful for as a gift or do we have to be enlightened first? May we receive and give the gift of Dhamma and the peace and bliss of Nibbana! with metta / Antony. 35300 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Dear Sukin, as always, you give us good reminders. You said you are busy, but, you were in Num's house. Would you share the discussion if you have time? I like to hear what Num said and regret it that he does not post as in former times. Always worthwhile what he said, Nina. op 09-08-2004 13:14 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > It is everyone's > understanding that words point to realities and that these are what > need to be understood directly. `Ignorance', `craving' and `wrong view' > are three such realities described and which we often need to be > reminded about, being precisely those that take us in to the wrong > direction and blind us into thinking otherwise. These can be known > directly with increasing familiarity, and come in different degrees and > shades. In fact, without observing them in experience, I think we will be > all the time influenced by them. But first we need to recognize them > don't we? How will this happen if we are not told `about' them? 35301 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation on the Buddha Dear Azita, op 09-08-2004 14:02 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > Just today I read the Brahmayu Sutta for the first time, and it > made the Buddha come 'more to life' for me. There is a lot a detail > about him and this one in particular impressed me. > "When seated indoors, he does not fidget with his hands. He does > not fidget with his feet. He does not sit with his knees crossed. He > does not sit with his ankles crossed. He does not sit with his hand > holding his chin.........." N: There are rules for the monks not to do like that. why? They have to live like the arahats, without defilements. Those who are not arahats have defilements, but their way of living is already like the arahat. It is because of lobha, dosa and moha that we fidget, but good to remember. Therefore, the Vinaya is very useful also for laypeople. Nina. 35302 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 9, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Re: Perception of repulsiveness Hello Steve, I think they come from various suttas. They are known as the Four Protections and are certainly taught to lay disciples at meditation retreats. Repulsiveness refers to the body: http://www.geocities.com/discussbuddhism/Pa-Auk-Protective- Meditation.html http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/devotion/devotion07.htm http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/protmed.html Maybe others have comments. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > Hi All, > The below is a short section from "The Buddhas Teaching on > Wholesome Deeds" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, translated from Thai by > Nina. > > ==== > S.The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be > applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of > subduing defilements. > W. : What are these four meditation subjects? > S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the > development of metta (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness > and mindfulness of death. > ==== > > What is 'perception of repulsiveness' refering to? Repulsivness in > nutriment? The 32 aspects of the body? Foulness kammatthana(the dead > body contemplations), all 3 or something else? > > Anyone know a Sutta where these four subjects are taught as being > suitable for layfollowers? > > Thanks > Steve 35303 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedana/Feelings and Sensations on the body reply (Sarah & Jon) Hi Nori (& Howard), Thank you for your kind comments and feedback. Yes, please split my posts into different threads and reorganise anytime. Much better. --- nori wrote: > Before getting into anything, I just wanted to mention that > everything I post (i.e. suggestions, topics, answers) is from the > position of one who is uncertain and unrealized. Maybe then being > uncertain, it is better not to post anything or answer any questions, > but then again, I do it, even with uncertain views in order to get > replies and comments so in order to learn. I just wanted to mention > that. .... S: I think this is just the way to check, question and consider.Thanks for mentioning this and rest assured, it’s not a list for arahants and we're all learning as we post here;-) .... > From the first excerpt above you state: "They (feelings-vedana) are > always namas and quite distinct from the rupas experienced through > the body sense." > > > This is where I am a bit confused; And this is where I think Goenka > and his camp are also a bit confused. > > I picked up the following idea (which I relayed as part of a reply in > a previous post) from the Goenka school of thought - `And where are > feelings felt? -..as sensations on the body'. .... S: Yes, as Howard wrote: ‘I agree that “Goenka & company" erroneously conflate vedana and rupa. Vedana are not bodily sensations, but are varieties and degrees of the mental experiences of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral....’ So many people get confused and misled by this and the message hasn’t ever changed it seems. I don’t know why not when it’s simply wrong.* ..... > In the entire Maha Satipatthana Sutta translation and other > literature made by the Vipassana Research Institute (Goenka's > organization), `Vedana' (`feelings') is directly translated > into `Sensations' (viz. sensations on the body). Thus my version of > ANIX-ii-4, which had the word `Sensations' in place of `Vedana'; this > was due to copying it off a VRI website. .... S: And yet in the Satipatthana Sutta, rupas and vedana are very clearly distinguished. Indeed without understanding the distinction, satipatthana cannot develop. .... > Now, I think I understand what you are saying, but here is the > confusion: > > I agree that the sensations "…experienced through the body sense or > through eyes, ears and so on", are not vedana/feelings (pleasant, > unpleasant, neither-), that they are only sensations. Now to be > specific, I mean, the isolated sensations in-and-of-themselves (i.e. > light, pressure, heat/cold, smell, touch). > > In this sense I agree there is a distinction between bodily sensation > and feeling. .... S: Good .... > However, once there is `recognition' of form by the sense- > conciousness', then is it not feeling? Aren't certain forms > inherently pleasant or not- or neither? .... S: Vedana (feeling) accompanies every single citta (consciousness). So, for example, when seeing cosciousness experiences visible object, the seeing citta is accompanied by seven mental factors including neutral feeling. When that same visible object is experienced by other cittas in the sense door or mind door process, they may be accompanied by pleasant or unpleasant feeling. When body consciousness experiences heat or cold or one of the other rupas you refer to, it is always accompanied by pleasant or unpleasant feeling. But the heat or cold is only experienced and doesn’t feel anything. Again, other sense door and mind door cittas may be accompanied by pleasant, unpleasant or even neutral feelings. For example, usually if body consciousness experiences extreme cold, not only will that citta be accompanied by unpleasant feeling, but subsequent mind door cittas will too. For those who have eradicated aversion however, there will be no dosa or unpleasant mental feeling subsequently. Please also see under ‘Feelings’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts See also Victor’s posts to you, 34350, 34506 (Sakalika Sutta etc) and Jon’s 34399. Nina also gave more detail, try: 34448, 34449, 34473, 35083 .... > I will recall this sutta: > > Majjhima Nikaya 66 > Latukikopama Sutta > The Quail Simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html > > "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which > five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, > endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the > ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the > tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, > pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are > the five strings of sensuality." > > > And now say due to these sensations there is craving and due to that, > sorrow, lamentation. <....> > Now from this above example there is no question - The > vedana/feelings are manifested on the body, and felt on the body > as 'rupas experienced through the body sense'. .... S: Again, we have to understand that it is the namas - the cittas and accompanying mental factors, especially influenced by the feelings, which find the rupas and concepts on account of the rupas to be ‘agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing’. Without any experience of the rupas, without any feelings and without any proliferation on their account, there is no idea of ‘agreeable...’. Vedana are not ‘felt on the body’ but accompany body consciousness and the other cittas which experience the rupas. Nanamoli/Bodhi translate the passage: “There are, Udayin, five chords of sensual pleasure. What are the five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. Sounds..Odours...Flavours...Tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for.........” ... > From the first excerpt above you state: "They (feelings-vedana) are > always namas and quite distinct from the rupas experienced through > the body sense." > > Is not Vedana (which is pleasant or not-pleasant or neither) > experienced on the body as 'rupas experienced through the body sense'? > > If not then where is it experienced? .... S: Good Qu. It’s true that at a moment of body consciousness that the citta and accompanying mental factors, including vedana are ‘based’ or dependent on the rupas of the body at the point of contact in order to experience the heat or cold or other rupa, just as seeing consciousness is based or dependent on they eye or eye-sense to experience visible objects. Still we have to understand that the seeing or body consciousness and accompanying states are namas quite distinct from the eye-sense, the body-sense rupas or the rupas directly experienced. This experience dependent on the eye-sense or body-consciousness is so brief and is then followed by many subsequent sense door and mind door cittas and feelings which are not dependent on the same rupas anymore. Howard mentioned his *theory* that ‘vedana is always ‘mediated’ by bodily sensation’ and so on. It’s true that as the Quail Simile sutta and most other suttas show, without the ‘five chords of sensual pleasure’, i.e the esperiencing of rupas through the sense doors, there would not be the craving, sorrow and lamentation with which we live. In the arupa plane, there are no rupas experienced and therefore no attachment or sorrow on their account. However, rupas as well as namas have to be known for what they are in order of insight to develop. Hence the importance and stress in understanding seeing and visible objects, hearing and sounds and so on as merely namas and rupas, impermanent dhammas not worthy of being clung to. I think it’s very important to understand these distinctions. Please let me know if it’s not clear. The first couple of chapters of ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ should help too. Remember that ‘bodily feelings’ are namas accompanying body consciousness in the same way that feelings accompanying seeing consciousness are. It takes time and patience to really understand the distinction between namas and rupas and it's helpful for me or others to elaborate and consider further. Metta, Sarah *Nori, I know you like ‘personal’ details. I think I mentioned to you before that when I first went to India I spent quite a few months in Bodh Gaya with Munindra and occasionally I’d be invited to tag along when he and Goenka would have a walk, usually with Goenka asking Munindra qus on the texts. Chris recently sent me this link which has a picture of the two of them exactly as I remember them setting off for a cool winter walk: http://www.spiritrock.org/html/munindra-ji.html ================================= 35304 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Nori (& Howard), I don’t pretend to understand ‘phantom limbs’ - I remember it was discussed before on DSG. It reminds me of the discussions on dreams - the images and sensations seem to be so real but in fact are mind-created. In fact there’s no seeing or hearing at these times when the eyes and ears are not experiencing any visible objects or sounds. Of course this doesn’t mean that the sensations or sights or whatever do not seem to be mirror images. --- nori wrote: > "Ramachandran's hypothesis is that there is a remapping of the body > image in the brain. Areas of the brain that corresponded with a > particular limb, say an arm, no longer have anything there to > correspond with if the arm is removed. Parts of the brain may take > over this latent area, and 'fool' the brain into thinking the limb > still exists. One patient could feel his phantom hand and arm > being 'touched' when his face was touched so it seems there is some > truth in this." .... S: This ‘fits’. In dhamma terms, we’d say that the memories have been ‘accumulated’ and there are conditions for the mind-door processes to experience concepts or ‘replicas’, like in a dream. .... > This is great information to ponder. > > I guess all bodily sensation (of rupa/matter) exists ultimately in > the mind; Likewise is the case for Vedana (feeling) pleasant, > unpleasant, neither-. .... S: Well, let’s say that after rupas are experienced through the body-sense, they are experienced in many mind-door processes. Any object, nama (naturally including vedana) or rupa can be the object of mind-door cittas. ..... > There is no such thing as a direct 'objective' sensation or > observation. > > All sensations are interpretations of the mind. .... S: Now I’m not sure what you mean by sensations - rupas or vedana? The latter can only be known by mind-door cittas, but 7 rupas are experienced directly through the body-sense. (The rest, including cohesion or water element can only be experienced through the mind-door). .... > They must pass through sense organs, nerves pathways, sensory cortex. .... S: As Howard suggested, we need to distinguish these (scientific) concepts from realities. .... > Knowing this, how can we ever see things - as they truly are ? ... S: Only by knowing the realities, the namas and rupas. Never by knowing the scientific details or conceptual constructs. Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll get to the focussing thread when I have time. Greatly appreciate all your responses and also Howard's;-) ===== 35305 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV 92 Hi Icaro & Fellow Brazilians, --- icaro franca wrote: > At your post about the Atthasallini (The Expositor) I > read that Domanassa, Patigha, etc, are rooted on Dosa > (Hate , Fear, Rage and so on). At least at my own > viewpoint they don't have necessarily the same > meaning. > No need to confusion, Nina! Pali and conventional > language has his own niche on practical matters, > without fall into the abyss made between Sanksrit and > other Prakrit dialects... .... S: On the topic of dosa and conventional language's niche on practical matters, I read this relevant note in the paper: "Agosto m^es do desgosto" 'August, the month of sorrow and grief' It said that 'Among Brazilians, the entire month of August inspires dread'. Wow - soon be over anyway. No dread for those who've eradicated dosa either. <.....> >And there's no confusion, since if > Domanassa are rooted on Dosa, for example, they aren't > the same event or being! > > Corrections are welcome indeed! .... S: As I was just writing to Nori, no domanassa or unpleasant mental feeling when there's no dosa. Still unpleasant bodily feeling (dukkha), but no aversion on its or any other account. No more sorrow or grief in Rio!! Glad to hear you're reading the Vinaya now, Icaro. Appreciate any of your sharings and help for Gabriel. Now, how can we encourage Michael to stay around and not see us as being like a stuck record? I always find my discussions with him helpful -- especially the homework I have to do;-) Metta, Sarah "Agosto 'non' m^es do desgosto" here..... ============================ 35306 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:04am Subject: In Australia Dear All, I arrived in Queensland yesterday, had a stomach upset and spent the trip up and down to the toilet on the flight from Bangkok. Probably a good thing as my girlfriend (met at Brisbane airport)said I am not quite as fat as last time she saw me. Have spent a few hours with Ken H already and its like meeting an old friend who knows me well. Christine, Jill Jordan, Azita, Steve, Redge, Ken, myself and other Buddhist enthusiasts are all going to be staying at Andrews from Friday for a few days of intense, relaxed Dhamma Discussions. Robk 35307 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Howard (Herman & All). We were discussing the raft simile. Again I had intended to continue the thread a little more before now..... --- upasaka@a... wrote: > The attachment to right view *has* to be relinquished, but the > view > itself will also go. .... S: We both agree about the attachment. If the view is right view, i.e panna, then it’s a beautiful (sobhana) cetasika which arises and falls but is always ‘good’ when it arises, whether it’s before or after reaching the other shore.In other words, right view doesn’t become ‘wrong’ because more developed right view arises later. ..... >A child may have the belief that fire will burn > her/him, > because mommy and daddy said so. But once burned, the belief is gone, > for now the > child *knows*. .... S: hmmm. If there is right intellectual understanding about conditions, just because direct understanding begins to know them doesn’t mean the intellectual understanding is redundant. Isn’t this the spiral analogy again? Now I’ve written this, I’m not sure we have any disagreement at all here - maybe why I didn’t reply before;-). Let’s see if I can pick up on another of your posts while I’m talking to you. OK, I thought your post to Herman(35061) was a very kind and supportive one. I particularly appreciated this comment you wrote: >Howard: I think it is obvious that a core constituency of DSG consists of admirers of Khun Sujin. But there are numerous others who have no history at all with her and her writings, and some who are diametrically opposed to some of her takes on the Dhamma. And there are some members who are as enthousiastic about other teachers including Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, S.N. Goenka, and founders of IMS as "the Khun Sujin people" are about her. That's all just fine, I think. If DSG ever became intolerant of different views of the Dhamma, it wouldn't remain a hospitable "place," but I don't see this happening. I just see honest disagreement on issues, so I am at ease.< ..... S: In spite of Herman’s comments suggesting discussions between say, Jon and I would be ‘hilarious’, I’d suggest quite the contrary . We’ve never had a disagreement on any Dhamma topic that either of us can recall*, apart from the odd small detail perhaps, and everyone would soon be falling asleep if they were to listen in on a live discussion between us (actually, usually we just read out posts and discuss ways to make the Dhamma accessible, that’s it). When we used to have regular ‘live’ discussions with friends, it was the same - no dissension in these ranks;-) In Bangkok with K.Sujin too -- the most lively discussions are when someone comes along with a different take on practice, for example. We all learn from hearing, considering and thrashing out discussions on different view-points. We’ve both learnt and gained tremendously from these on DSG in a way we certainly never anticipated. Metta, Sarah * not surprsing because we were both firmly ensconced in what you refer to as the ‘admirers of Khun Sujin camp’ long before we met. However, when it comes to non-dhamma topics, even trivial ones such as whether we need to carry an umbrella or how to iron a shirt or cut carrots, let me assure you, we can disagree or argue as well as any other couple;-). ============================= 35308 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:08am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 039 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 89 cittas, the first 12 cittas are akusala cittas. They are first discussed because they are very common and so that cittas connected with these akusala cittas can be understood. Next comes 7 vipaka cittas which are the result of past bad actions. These cittas are also very very common and without these 7 cittas there will not be life on this earth. After that comes 8 vipaka cittas which are the result of past good actioins. These are also very very common as do the above 7 vipaka cittas. I avoided some word here not to be confused. So far 27 cittas have been discussed. The 28th citta of 89 cittas is also very common and it arises very frequently. The 28th citta in its full name is called.. 'Upekkha sahagatam pancadvaravajjana citta'. This citta is the third citta in three cittas which are manodhatu. Manodhatu will be discussed in far later posts. This citta has once been discussed when cittas were being classified. But here it will be discussed again for those who follow this series ''Dhamma Thread''. This citta has a feeling. That feeling is upekkha. Upekkha has been explained before. Upa and ekkha makes upekkha. Upa means not extreme, not good not bad and ekkha means to feel. This citta arises with such feeling. Pancadvaravajjana comes from panca + dvara + avajjana. Panca is five, dvara is door. Pancadvara means five sense-doors. Actually it is avajjana citta. It does the job of avajjana. When does at eye, it is cakkhudvaravajjana citta, at ear sotadvaravajjana citta, at nose ghanadvaravajjana citta, at tongue jivhadvaravajjana citta, at body kayadvaravajjana citta. Avajjana is one of 14 kiccas that cittas can perform as their job. Kicca means 'to perform' 'to do' 'to implement' 'to carry out'. So what is the job description for avajjana. Once I wrote on this. I used similes of trucks, gates, gatekeepers, control-tower-personnel and so on. I would prefer to translate avajjana like this: Avajjana is a Pali word and it is 'arammana or aa' and 'vajjana' combination. Vajjana means 'to contemplate'. Contemplate is looking at with special intention. So avajjana is 'contemplation of arammana'. On the highway there are many trucks. These trucks are bhavanga cittas and their arammanas. Once one of the trucks approach to the conscious mind compound or vithi vara. When it approaches the first person to notice is the control-tower-watcher. He is pancadvaravajjana citta. He knows the truck is approaching. Next the gate-keeper of cakkhuvinnana citta opens the gate and the truck comes in. Avajjana is to contemplate on arammana that is which arammana is approaching whether rupa or sight, sadda or sound, gandha or smell, rasa or taste, photthabba or touch truck. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35309 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapana / Vipassana / Satipatthana instruction (detailed additional info) Hi Ken, ---------- HH : > What is found in the Pali Canon and Commentaries spans a thousand odd years of development of thought. ---------- Not according to the texts themselves. They say quite the opposite and, as students of those texts, that is all we need to know on the subject. ============= If you can be as accepting of everything that life dishes up as you can be of what it says in some books about those books, then you will be a saint before long. Perhaps.....no, that couldn't be, a surfing saint :-) For worldling Herman meaning is derived from context, and context must include the whole backdrop. It probably doesn't interest you, but there is a hellofalot of polemics in the suttas and commentaries. The suttas and commentaries are very much conditioned by the views that they denounce/refute. ------------ H: > It should not surprise, then, that on a number of significant issues, what is taught in early Buddhism is markedly different to what is taught in the Theravadan scholastic period. There is not a unity of view in, say, the following: "This physical body made up of the four primary existents is seen to exist for one, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, hundred or more years. That which is called the mind, thought or consciousness arises as one thing and ceases as another whether by night or by day" (S.i.94-7) and The teaching that cittas have a specific time duration (1/17th, I think)compared to rupas (Abh somewhere, I'm sure). > ------------ KH: I am not competent to interpret suttas without the Commentaries, and I am not competent to interpret the Commentaries without Nina. :-) (Or Sarah, and I seem to remember Sarah's explaining the former paragraph quite recently. But, I don't know where.) In the meantime, let's look at your interpretation of those paragraphs. Actually, you don't give an interpretation: you just say there is `not a unity of view' in them. Why isn't there? Surely you don't think the former is saying the physical body lasts, unchanging, for up to 100 years? A child can tell you it doesn't. And what about the mind: are you saying the mind changes just once every twelve hours? Come off the grass, Herman! :-) ============ It seems that Nina and Sarah have been given quite some responsibility here. I'm sure they will interpret commentaries for you in an admirable way :-) Again, it probably doesn't interest you, but there was a raging debate in the time of the Buddha, as well as in Greece, about whether the word "same" applied to anything. Is it the same body that dies as the one that is born. You can't step into the same river twice. That sort of thing. My take on the sutta quote is that there is visible continuity in the body, but thoughts change even before they vanish. Haven't been on any grass for a long time :-) ------------ H: > Just as another example, in the Nikayas, cetasika is to be found only in the singular. It is only in later works that it came to be used as plural and an ultimate category. > ------------- KH: I am not trying to be obtuse: I just don't see the problem. ============ It is not a problem for me either. It simply goes towards demonstrating that the views put forward in the Abhidhamma are quite different (not the same) to the views put forward in the Suttas. ------------- H: > I can go on and on. But my interest is not in the academic distilling of what the Buddha verbally taught from a thousand years of written speculative philosophy (an exercise bound to be perfected as educated guesswork). I am mainly interested in solving a particularly nasty problem. Existence. To the extent that something that is put forward points to a solution that works, I'm all ears. Anything that doesn't go to a solution, merely compounds the problem. Who needs it? Even if we all realised that we don't exist, that does not end dukkha, does it? > -------------- Are you troubled by the suffering of other species on other planets in other galaxies? No, and yet, that suffering is less remote from you than your own suffering is from an abiding self. ====================== There is no suggestion in the texts that suffering/dukkha ends with self-view. Suffering/dukkha ends with the ceasing of becoming/existence. See Channovada Sutta M.iii.266 Kind Regards Herman 35310 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] In Australia Hi RobK, Many thanks for keeping us posted and I do hope you feel better soon. No fun on a flight..... --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Have spent a few hours with Ken H already and its like meeting an > old friend who knows me well. ... S: I can imagine;-) ... > Christine, Jill Jordan, Azita, Steve, Redge, Ken, myself and other > Buddhist enthusiasts are all going to be staying at Andrews from > Friday for a few days of intense, relaxed Dhamma Discussions. .... S: I'm thrilled to hear Jill J (a very dear old friend) will be joining too - those are going to be really great discussions and I hope you all have a super long week-end. Greatly looking forward to everyone's comments (take notes everyone) and I'm sure you'll be particularly 'inspired' arriving straight from Bkk. Metta, Sarah ======= 35311 From: Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/10/04 5:47:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > The attachment to right view *has* to be relinquished, but the > >view > >itself will also go. > .... > S: We both agree about the attachment. If the view is right view, i.e > panna, then it’s a beautiful (sobhana) cetasika which arises and falls but > is always ‘good’ when it arises, whether it’s before or after reaching the > other shore.In other words, right view doesn’t become ‘wrong’ because more > developed right view arises later. > ..... > >A child may have the belief that fire will burn > >her/him, > >because mommy and daddy said so. But once burned, the belief is gone, > >for now the > >child *knows*. > .... > S: hmmm. If there is right intellectual understanding about conditions, > just because direct understanding begins to know them doesn’t mean the > intellectual understanding is redundant. Isn’t this the spiral analogy > again? > > Now I’ve written this, I’m not sure we have any disagreement at all here - > maybe why I didn’t reply before;-). ====================== I don't think we have any substantive disagreement on this matter, Sarah. We're just speaking in slightly different ways. To give a conventional analogy: If someone asked me whether I believed that I've been breathing during the last hour, I would look at them oddly and probably carefully physically distance myself from them! ;-)) Why? Because I don't "believe" it - I *know* it. Generally, belief can be in effect with regard to a matter only when there remains some question with regard to it. So, right view as a genus of *belief* disappears when knowledge appears. But right view in the sense of correct understanding does not disappear when knowledge arises, but, instead, reaches its pinnacle. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35312 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Corrrection --- sarah abbott wrote: > S:......but 7 rupas are > experienced > directly through the body-sense. (The rest, including cohesion or water > element can only be experienced through the mind-door). .... I meant '7 rupas are experienced through the senses', i.e not just body-sense. Also in my post before to Nori there was a 'body consciousness' which should have read as 'body-sense'. Metta, Sarah ======= 35313 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:44am Subject: Fwd: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta, Magga, Phala, Nibbana --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear All, There are these eight words that should be well understood in detail. They are samatha, vipassana, anicca, dukkha, anatta, magga, phala, and nibbana. SAMATHA Some argue samatha within the boundry of Buddhism. Buddha preached samadhi and how to develop samadhi. But samatha is not just confined to Buddhism. Samatha exists even before The Buddha. I mention this because I want to highlight that in samatha there is no notion of tilakkhana called anicca, dukkha, anatta. Tilakkhana are interconnected and if one is seen then the other two are seen. There were people before The Buddha. People engaged in samatha before The Buddha did not know anatta. As they did not know anatta, they did not know anicca. Because they thought they were nicca and their spirit would live forever if they became brahma which is their destination. Once I talked with Hindu friends. Overlapping things as compared to Christianity is that there have been many lives both in Hinduism and Buddhism. But those many lives and perception of life is totally different between Hindusim and Buddhism. When I said anatta, they had no word to argue but as human nature they did not give up and said Hinduism is older than Buddhism. Samatha is concentration pointing at a single object and stay there as long as possible. Do not ask at this stage for cannonical support. Crystal ball contemplation, word citation which is not from Buddhism, and still there there are many kind of practices that may lead to a good concentration. In Buddhism, there are teachings regarding akusala and kusala. Such and such are akusala and they are to be avoided and such and such are kusala and they are to be practised and to follow. Among kusala, there are dana kusala, sila kusala and bhavana kusala. While dana kusala and sila kusala involve kayadvara ( actions at body ), vacidvara ( actions as speech ), and manodvara ( actions in mind which may be thoughts or whatever ), bhavana kusala involves only manodvara. In bhavana, there are samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. Bhavana means cultivation. Here samatha in Buddhism is quite different from other samatha. Samatha in Buddhism always always involve saddha or absolute belief. There are 40 kinds of samatha bhavana. Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are called kammatthana. Kammatthana is a Pali word made up of 'kamma' and 'thana'. Kamma here means the kusala kamma which is bhavana that is being cultivated. Thana means place. Kammatthana means... ''the site or place where bhavana kusala kamma citta has to dwell on or depend on or seat in''. There are 40 samatha kammatthana. These 40 help in development of vipassana kammatthana in later practice but they are not to see anicca, dukkha, or anatta. They are for bringing down vitikkama kilesa and pariyutthana kilesa that is very wild bad mind and wild bad mind. Just befor the lent bhikkhus went to The Bhagava and asked for appropriate kammatthana and The Bhagava gave them according to their paramis and needs according to their carita or habbits. What The Buddha taught was how to attain Nibbana. But kammatthana that was given was for stillness of wild mind whose always stayed strayed. VIPASSANA This word Vipassana is the seat of arguement for some but not for most Buddhists as Buddhists are all familiar with Vipassana. Some would say that vipassana is not The Buddha word but it can be found in Dhamma preached by The Buddha. Mahasatipatthana is actually Vipasssana. Vipassana is made up of 'Vi' and 'passana'. Vi means distinctly, distinguishingly, particularly, especially. Passa means 'to look' 'to contemplate' 'to watch'. Kayanupassana satipatthana is 'looking at bodily things in detail'. Kaya means 'body' or 'combination'. Anupassana means ( anu- in detail + passa- to look ). This is a form of vipassana. This is breath, it is long, it is short, it is in it is out, it is calm, this is such position, such is this movement which is preceeded by thought and such is such content, such is such element, such is such foulness etc etc and all are connected and combination. Such contemplation is vipassana. Vedananupassana satipatthana is contemplation on feeling and it is also a form of vipassana. Looking into feeling is not samatha. Cittanupassana satipatthana is contemplation on citta or mind and it is not samatha. It is a form of vipassana. Dhammanupassana is a form of vipassana. Vipassana is a kammatthana and it is called vipassana kammatthana in its full name. In Vipassana Bhavana Kammatthana, bhavana kusala citta or good- orientated mind is directed to the object of vipassana which is the place or thana for the kusala citta. The object of vipassana is anything. It may be kaya. It may be feeling. It may be citta or mind. It may dhamma. It may be nature. And anything. While Vipassana mind is following any given event at the very present there is no stillness at all as in samatha. This is quite different between samatha and vipassana. Vipassana moves around the event which is right at the very strict present time. As Vipassana follows with bare attention and knows everything at the present, there is a good concentration. This is called Vipassana Jhana. In samatha and especially in Jhana, there are samadhi. Samadhi are concentration. Samadhi in samatha, ssamadhi in jahana are stillness or one-pointedness. Samadhi or concentration also needs to be understood. When you taste salt solutions, you will say solution A is much more concentrated than solution B. The more concentrated, the more contents of salt. The more concentrated the mind, the more you are at the directed object and this is one-pointedness and this is samadhi of samatha. Another arguing point is dry method and wet method. :-) If vipassana is not that concentrated, how one will proceed to see higher dhamma and attain higher nana. ANICCA This is easy to cite. But really difficult to perceive through deep in the mind as own experience. Nicca is permanence. Anicca means impermanence. Impermance as worldly people know or accept is not that Anicca that The Buddha discovered. Here was a building. After a year, that build gone.This notion is not anicca. While each moment everything disappears, there is nothing to be attached. But as attachment prevails in different form such as craving, clinging, upadana and so on, real anicca cannot be seen with really own experience but with read-knowledge, heard-knowledge, logically-thought-knowledge. DUKKHA Dukkha comes in different forms. Dukkha in its Pali word means 'unbearable'. Dukkha is made up of 'Du' and 'Kha' or 'ekkha'. Du means not good, not pleasant, not satisfactory and ekkha means feeling. Such and such pain is dukkha. All will accept pain as dukkha or suffering. But when there is no pain, they all will forget that they do not have any dukkha or suffering. If anicca is seen through own wisdom that is not of read-wisdom, heard-wisdom, logically-thought-wisdom, dukkha is seen. When things disappear all the time, there is nothing to be attached and all these that happening are all only suffering and all these are dukkha. Some would say '' Jati/ birth is dukkha, Jara/oldness is dukka, Byadhi/disease is dukkha, Marana/death is dukka, Soka/worry-amxiety, Parideva/lamentation, Dukkha ( physical pain ), Domanassa/mental suffering, Upasaya/despair is dukkha. But actually dukkha is there all the time. Dukkha is not only at the time of these events ( 12 in Paticcasamuppada ) but it exists all the time as time goes by. Apart from these 12 events 1.birth, 2.oldness, 3.death, 4.worry, 5.lamentation, 6.physical pain or disease, 7.mental suffering, 8.despair-hopelessness even would not breathe in, 9. dissociation from loved ones, 10. association with hated ones, 11. not obtaining what one wants, and 12. five clinging aggregares, there always is dukkha as long as living. Again living will not stop as long as kamma dictate. This living does not mean conventional life. If anicca is seen, dukkha has been already seen. There is no separation. But just a topic for direction, they are called anicca, dukkha, anatta. ANATTA These days and in this era, as doctrines and teachings of The Buddha have well established, Buddhists would say Anatta, anatta, anatta. And they may even use anatta as citation word for counting of beads in a circular string ( 9, 32, 108 beaded strings ). Brahmin have been there for immeasurable time. Even The Bodhisatta at first approached Alara and then Udaka. As a Bodhisatta, The Prince attained all 8 jhanas whithin a very short period. But He knew that these samatha things,absorptive concentration or rupa and arupa jhana are not the answers to why people face with oldness, disease and death. Still at that time, what all accepted was Atta. The atta or spirit moves from a body to a next life body and atta or spirit or mind or soul moves from one deva to next life deva from one god to next god and appears in different forms. Actually, it is not. Even people what they themselves called as Buddhists think that they know anatta but they each believe that this is my body and I will die in this life and I will be reborn in next life and such and such life was my past lives and so on. These is only a thin layer between sassata ditthi or eternity-wrong-view and many births due to kamma. Anatta is actually prevailing all the time and it is like your eye- brown just above your eyes. While see other things, eyes cannot see themselves. It is easy to say and cite Anatta, anatta, anatta. But it is very difficult to see Anatta in its fullest sense. As things disappear all the time, they are impermanent and anicca. This unstableness is not desirable and it is suffering and dukkha. No one can stop or hinder or influence this dhamma do not disappear, this dhamma arise at this time and so on. All dhamma are anatta. Sabbe sankhara anicca. Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Sabbe dhamma anatta. These three things ot tilakkhanas are inseparable and when one is seen then the other two have been already seen. MAGGA Magga means path, way, road. Magga is dhamma setting means higher nana called magga cittas. There are 4 stages of enlightenment. There are endless kilesa or defilement. They have been there in samsara and their cleareance cannot be done at a single moment. So there have to be four stages of permanent clearence of kilesas. They are 1.Sotapatti Magga Citta 2.Sakadagami Magga Citta 3.Anagami Magga Citta 4.Arahatta Magga Citta Sotapatti is made up of sota and aapatti. Sota means 'river' or 'the flow of a river'. Aapatti means 'to reach'. Sotapatti means 'to reach to the stream for the first time'. As soon as the practitioner reach the stream, he becomes a stream-enterer. The flow is into great ocean, nibbana. As soon as he reaches, he drops three things. He does not hold any more self-identity view. He does not have any doubt regarding NEP Noble Eightfold Path, the practice leads to Nibbana. He does not hold non-sense ritualiy views like dog-practice, cow-practice etc etc. He will have only 7 more lives at least. When in the stream, his defilements are eroded by the stream and become thinner and thinner. If he reaches the 2nd stage of enlightenment, he is said to be Sakadagam. Saka or Sakim means 'once'. Agami means 'to come'. Sakadagami means 'possibility of coming back to kama bhumi like manussa or human world and deva worlds. Sakadagam will live 2 more lives at least. If he returns to kama bhumi or human/deva realm, his last life will be in suddhavasa brahma bhumi. While proceeding along the down stream of the river to ocean, once further 2 more kilesas will be eradicated. They are kama raga or sex- taste and dosa or aversion. When this 3rd stage of enlightenment has reached, the practitioner is called Anagam. He has only one more life to live if he does not become an Arahat in that same life. He is non-returner to kama bhumi. If he did not become an arahat and died, he will be reborn in pure abode or one of 5 suddhavasa catuttha brahma bhumis where there are only Anagams and Arahats. Once all defilements are eradicated completely, he is called fully- enlightened and becomes an arahat. He will not have any more life as there is no more defilement that would give rise to rebirth. PHALA Phala are Phala cittas. They are corresponding resultant cittas to Magga cittas. Magga cittas only arise once. In any given magga vithi vara, the flow of cittas will be.. 1.Manodvaravajjana citta 2.Parikamma Vipassana citta which is mahakusakala nana sampayutta seeing anicca-dukkha-anatta 3.Upacara Vipassana citta ( the same as above ) 4.Anuloma Vipassana citta ( negotiating citta between lower nana and higher incoming nana cittas ) 5.Gutrabhu Vipassana citta ( releasing citta-just release puthujanahood in case of puthujana and so on ) 6.Corresponding Magga citta ( seeing Nibbana as its object ) 7.Corresponding Phala citta ( the same as Magga citta ) 8. Phala If paikamma vipassana citta does not arise, there will be three successive phala cittas and then bhavangas citta follow. Here Phala cittas are the results of Magga cittas. They are called fruition consciousness. NIBBANA Even though there have been a lot of literature, actualy sense of nibbana cannot be known by anyone including ariyas who are in ordinary time. Nibbana will be seen only at the time of magga citta arising. As magga citta stays just JUST a single moment, this may or may not be recognised. 2 or 3 phala cittas are also just a few moments. But when arahats dwell in Phala Samapatti, they will see nibbana as long as they are in Arahatta Phala Samapatti. Nirodha Samapatti is much much more than Phala Samapatti. While Phala Samapatti is mainly in manodvara and just related with citta, Nirodha Samapatti cause cessation of all cittas including associated cetasikas including sanna and jivitindriya which is mental life. There also stop arising of cittaja rupa. This is in Nibbana when the conventional body does not still die and this state is called Sa- Upadisesa Nibbana. As soon as Cuti citta arises, that Arahatta Cuti citta passes away and there is no more kamma and so no more rebirth and no more suffering. May all being be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- End forwarded message --- 35314 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati Sutta Dear Rob Ep, op 09-08-2004 06:16 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: >> Nina: >>> The sort of assembly that is >>> worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy >>> of respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is >>> this community of monks, such is this assembly. >> N: yes, such texts always describe enlightened bhikkhus.> Rob: This is interesting and I would raise a question about the situation > described in the sutta: > > Nina, I think you and some others here draw the conclusion that since > an advanced disciple who is practicing sitting meditation is the > subject of the sutta, that the implication is that the method of > practicing mindfulness of breathing is meant only for such an advanced > disciple. Please let me know if I am not reading you correctly. I > know that Jon for one has expressed this view very directly. N: I was here merely speaking about the very special and gifted disciples present. The formula: an incomparable field of merit for the world expresses this. I was not speaking about mindfulness of breathing in general. The Buddha spoke about this also to other monks at other places. But I think that satipatthana is always implied. See the satipatthana sutta, Mindfulness of Breathing. Here in the Anapanasati sutta it is explained how vipassana is developed together with it, and that this is leading to arahatship. This is the main thing stressed here, I think. See the Visuddhimagga explanation of the four tetrads. See my long post on this and the Co in U.P. I preferred to let mainly the Co speak, and I did not insert much of my own. I do not think of any rules: should or should not, description or prescription. I can just tell you how I read scriptures and Co. I think the purpose of samatha is being removed from sensepleasures and if one's aim is samatha to the degree of jhana one's whole life should be in accordance with this, absolutely dedicated to this aim. Also one has to carefully scrutinize one's cittas: when is the citta kusala citta, when is there clinging to a result. Does one's practice lead to more detachment? Only when jhana is attained and that person has the masteries of jhana (entering and emerging at will, etc.) can jhana be a basis for insight. Jhana does not lead to the realization of kusala and akusala as not self, not mine. Insight leads to detachment from the wrong view of self. Is insight one's goal? Then one should ask oneself whether there is more understanding of nama and rupa that present themselves now so that later on their characteristcis of impermanence, dukkha and anatta can be penetrated. All such questions one has to solve for oneself. Nina. 35315 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:22am Subject: Intro Vis. 93 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 93. That 'rooted in delusion' is of two kinds: (32)-(33) being 'accompanied-by-equanimity', it is either 'associated-with-uncertainty' or 'associated-with-agitation'. It should be understood to occur at the time of indecision or of distraction. So unprofitable consciousness is of twelve kinds. Intro to Vis. 93 and Tiika. There are two types of cittas rooted in ignorance, moha-muula-cittas. They have moha as their only root. They are: 1) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with doubt upekkhaasahagata.m vicikicchaasampayutta.m 2) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with restlessness upekkhaasahagata.m uddhaccasampayutta.m Vicikicchaa is doubt about ultimate realities, about naama and ruupa, about cause and result, the four noble Truths, the Dependent origination. It is doubt about the Triple Gem, doubt about it whether enlightenment can be attained. The Expositor (II, p. 344) states: There is a word association between vicikiccha, doubt, and kicchati, to be wearied. It is tiring to wonder: is it this, or is it that? Is this true or not? It arises only with citta rooted in moha; ignorance conditions doubt. It may seem that doubt arises with unpleasant feeling, but it can condition dosa with unpleasant feeling, and this arises later on. It merely seems that doubt and dosa arise at the same time because cittas succeed one another so fast. Doubt is exclusion from the cure of knowledge, but understanding can cure it. So long as we have not reached the first stage of insight which clearly discerns the difference between nama and rupa, we have doubt about their characteristics. Hearing, which is nama, and sound, which is rupa, are different dhammas and sati can be aware of only one dhamma at a time. When sati does not arise we are confused about nama and rupa and we have doubts. When there is direct understanding of realities there is no doubt, one can directly prove the truth. By insight doubt will wear out and the sotapanna has eradicated it completely. As to restlessness or agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. Uddhacca is not what we mean by the conventional term agitation, or excitement. Restlessness arises with each akusala citta and at that moment there is forgetfulness of kusala, there is not the steadiness and calm of kusala. Unwise attention is its proximate cause. The Tiika explains that when uddhacca arises with the citta rooted in moha it is predominant among the associated dhammas. Therefore, the second type of citta rooted in ignorance is classified as associated with restlessness, and here restlessness is mentioned expressively. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 346) about restlessness that is translated here as distraction: <ŒDistraction¹ is the mode of mind when excited, flurried. ŒDisquietude¹ is unquiet. ŒAgitation¹ is a throwing about of mind...> When we read the conventional terms excitement or agitation that describe uddhacca, we should remember that when it arises with the second type of citta rooted in ignorance there is only indifferent feeling that accompanies it. It is said in the Tiika that both types of citta are extremely deluded. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 18): They are always accompanied by indifferent feeling, there is no like and dislike with the two types of citta rooted in ignorance. It is difficult to know when there is the second type of citta rooted in ignorance, associated with restlessness and accompanied by indifferent feeling. However, it arises very often in between the cittas rooted in attachment and those rooted in aversion. When akusala kamma is committed motivated by attachment and aversion, there are also many moments of the second type of citta rooted in ignorance in between. The Tiika explains that this type of citta, although it cannot produce vipaaka in the form of an unhapppy rebirth, it does produce vipaaka in the course of life by way of unpleasant experiences through the senses. There are twelve types of akusala cittas in all: eight types of akusala cittas rooted in attachment, two types of akusala cittas rooted in aversion and two types of akusala cittas rooted in ignorance. The akusala cittas rooted in attachment have two roots: ignorance and attachment; those rooted in aversion also have two roots: ignorance and aversion; those rooted in ignorance have ignorance as their only root. ***** Nina. 35316 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:22am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 93 Tiika Vis. 93: The citta that has ignorance as its only root and is without another root is utterly confused, connected with doubt and restlessness it is unsteady and only accompanied by indifferent feeling, and also, it never has a keen nature. Since these two cittas when they occur are slow with regard to the object, and disturbed with regard to keenness in whatever kind of function, or they are not by nature instigated by energy, therefore there is no classification with regard to prompting. N: Unprompted means: without hesitation, keen, but this cannot be said of the two types of citta rooted in ignorance. Tiika: Restlessness that is taken here specifically is strong, although it is also present in the other akusala cittas, and therefore, while it occurs here as dominant among the accompanying dhammas, he differentiated it and said, ³accompanied by restlessness.² Therefore, restlessness has been handed down down (by tradition) in the texts (Dhsg. § 427) here likewise, and here it is taken as not universal since it is predominant, and thus the cittas rooted in ignorance should be understood as of two kinds, with the words, ³accompanied by doubt, and accompanied by restlessness.² N: As explained in the Intro, restlessness is universal to all akusala cittas. But in the second type of citta rooted in ignorance, it takes a predominant part and it is here specifically mentioned. It is differentiated from the first type of citta rooted in ignorance. Tiika: As to the word, indecision, this means doubt. N: In the Dhammasanga.ni (§425) the term sa.msayo is used for doubt. The Expositor explains this as fluctuation, < the inability to establish anything in one mode, thus, ŒIs this state [dhamma] permanent or is it impermanent?¹> Tiika: As to the word, distraction, this means lack of calm, confusion. N: This is said of uddhacca, restlessness. Tiika: Therefore, it should be understood that the twelve kinds of akusala cittas also take any object among the six objects and arise immediately after the mind-consciousness-element that is the rootless kiriyacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling, and that they arise committing kamma, performing deeds through the three doors of body etc. as the occasion presents itself, such as the course of action that is killing and so on. N: The twelve types of akusala cittas arise after the mind-door adverting-consciousness which is a rootless kiriyacitta (the mind-consciousness-element, mano-vinnñaa.na-dhaatu). They can perform kamma through the three doors of body, speech and mind. Tiika: Excluding here the consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by restlessness, the other eleven types of unwholesome consciousness produce rebirth-consciousness in the four unhappy planes and they produce also result in the course of life in a happy plane. However, consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by restlessness produces result only in the course of life. But in this case, what is the reason that the (kamma) accompanied by doubt that is the weakest of all, produces rebirth, whereas the (kamma) accompanied by restlessness, which is associated with determination and thus stronger than that, does not produce rebirth? N: The cetasika determination, adhimokkha, does not accompany doubt, therefore the citta with doubt is called the weakest of all. Determination accompanies the second type of citta rooted in ignorance and thus this is stronger than the first type. Tiika: Because it is not said that it is to be abandoned by insight. N: The defilements that are abandoned by seeing or insight (dassana) are those eradicated by the streamwinner. His path-consciousness is called seeing, since there is the seeing of nibbana for the first time. The defilements abandoned by cultivation (bhaavanaa) are those abandoned by arahatship. Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness completely. The streamwinner has no more conditions to be reborn in an unhappy plane. But since he still has not eradicated restlessness it is said in the Co. that restlessness has no intrinsic capacity to produce rebirth. It is explained that if restlessness could produce an unhappy rebirth, then ariyans who are not arahats could be reborn in an unhappy plane, but this is impossible. Therefore, restlessness can produce only result in the course of life. Tiika: If this citta would produce rebirth it would do so in unhappy planes, and he would say in that case that since it would lead to unhappy planes it would have to be abandoned by seeing, but this was not stated. Therefore, this does not produce rebirth, but it cannot be denied that it produces result in the course of life. In the Book of Analysis (Vibhanga, p. 393), in the section on the analytical knowledges (discriminations, pa.tisambhidaa), it is said that the knowledge of the citta accompanied by restlessness, is the analytical knowledge of origin (dhammapa.tisambhidaa), and that the knowledge of its result is the analytical knowledge of consequence (atthapa.tisambhidaa). N: In this context dhamma stands for cause and attha, litterally ³meaning², stands for result or consequence. As explained before in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 21, 22), there are four Discriminations (Pa.tisambhidas), of which the first two are: Discrimination of Meaning or Consequence, and Discrimination of Dhamma or Condition. As is stated in the Book of Analysis, the citta rooted in ignorance accompanied by restlessness can produce result, but it does so in the course of life. After this passage the Tiika then elaborates further on this issue by way of question and answer. **** Nina 35317 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perception of repulsiveness Dear Steve, op 09-08-2004 15:17 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > S.The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be > applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of > subduing defilements. > W. : What are these four meditation subjects? > S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the > development of metta (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness > and mindfulness of death. > ==== > > What is 'perception of repulsiveness' refering to? Repulsiveness in > nutriment? The 32 aspects of the body? Foulness kammatthana(the dead > body contemplations), all 3 or something else? N: I think all three are very suitable and can be used naturally in daily life, when attending to the body, eating (takes away greed for food!), dead body, when seeing a dead person or animal. Also the 32 aspects, these are not so attractive and can bring you back to the fact that the body consists of just rupa elements. There is no rule, it depends on one's inclinations and the circumstances that occur. S: Anyone know a Sutta where these four subjects are taught as being > suitable for layfollowers? N: The Buddha taught in many suttas about one or more of these, and in different Co they are said to be: suitable for all occasions. sabbattha. I do not know about suttas where it is said especially for laypeople. Again, no rule. I just heard A. Sujin speak about the perfections:< If you think I will do it you are expecting something, you hope for a result for yourself. Or is it just the kusala citta? You do not have to sit and think first what to do, it depends on the kusala citta.> I think the same goes for meditation in daily life. Expecting something with lobha will not be helpful. Nina. 35318 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:22am Subject: Pali: Tiika Vis. XIV, 93 Pali: Tiika Vis. XIV, 93 Vis: mohamuula.m upekkhaasahagata.m vicikicchaasampayutta.m uddhaccasampayutta~ncaati duvidha.m. tassa sanni.t.thaanavikkhepakaale pavatti veditabbaati eva.m akusalavi~n~naa.na.m dvaadasavidha.m hoti. Tiika 93: Mohekahetuka.m citta.m muulantaravirahato atimuu.lha.m, The citta that has ignorance as its only root and is without another root is utterly confused, vicikicchuddhaccayogato ca~ncala~ncaati upekkhaasahagatameva hoti, connected with doubt and restlessness it is unsteady and only accompanied by indifferent feeling, na tassa kadaacipi sabhaavatikkhataa atthi. and also, it never has a keen nature. Aaramma.ne hi sa.msappanavasena, vikkhipanavasena ca pavattamaanassa cittadvayassa kiidise kicce sabhaavatikkhataaya, Since these two cittas when they occur are slow with regard to the object, and disturbed with regard to keenness in whatever kind of function, ussaahetabbataaya vaa bhavitabba.m, tasmaa na tattha sa"nkhaarabhedo atthi. or they are not by nature instigated by energy, therefore there is no classification with regard to prompting. N: Unprompted means: without hesitation, keen, but this cannot be said of the two types of citta rooted in ignorance. Tiika: A~n~nesu akusalacittesu labbhamaanampi uddhacca.m visesato ettheva balava.m, Restlessness that is taken here specifically is strong, although it is also present in the other akusala cittas, tato eva sampayuttadhammesu padhaana.m hutvaa pavattatiiti idameva uddhaccena visesetvaa vutta.m ³uddhaccasampayuttan²ti. and therefore, while it occurs here as dominant among the accompanying dhammas, he differentiated it and said, ³accompanied by restlessness.² Tathaa hi paa.liya.m (dha. sa. 427) idha saruupato uddhacca.m aagata.m, Therefore, restlessness has been handed down down (by tradition) in the texts (Dhsg. § 427) here likewise, eva.m asaadhaara.napadhaanadhammavasena mohamuula.m ³vicikicchaasampayutta.m, uddhaccasampayuttan²ti duvidha.m vuttanti da.t.thabba.m. and here it is taken as not universal since it is predominant, and thus the cittas rooted in ignorance should be understood as of two kinds, with the words, ³accompanied by doubt, and accompanied by restlessness.² N: As explained in the Intro, restlessness is universal to all akusala cittas. But in the second type of citta rooted in ignorance, it takes a predominant part and it is here specifically mentioned. It is differentiated from the first type of citta rooted in ignorance. Tiika: Asanni.t.thaana.m sa.msayo. As to the word, indecision, this means doubt. N: In the Dhammasanga.ni (§425) the term sa.msayo is used for doubt. The Expositor explains this as fluctuation, < the inability to establish anything in one mode, thus, ŒIs this state [dhamma] permanent or is it impermanent?¹> Tiika: Vikkhepo avuupasamo, bhantataati attho. As to the word, distraction, this means lack of calm, confusion. N: This is said of uddhacca, restlessness. Tiika: Tayida.m dvaadasavidhampi akusalacitta.m chasu aaramma.nesu ya.m vaa ta.m vaa aalambitvaa upekkhaasahagataahetukakiriyaamanovi~n~naa.nadhaataanantara.m Therefore, it should be understood that the twelve kinds of akusala cittas also take any object among the six objects and arise immediately after the mind-consciousness-element that is the rootless kiriyacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling, kaayadvaaraadiihi tiihi dvaarehi kaayakammaadivasena yathaaraha.m paa.naatipaataadikammapathavasena ceva kammavasena ca uppajjatiiti veditabba.m. and that they arise committing kamma, performing deeds through the three doors of body etc. as the occasion presents itself, such as the course of action that is killing and so on. N: The twelve types of akusala cittas arise after the mind-door adverting-consciousness which is a rootless kiriyacitta (the mind-consciousness-element, mano-vinnñaa.na-dhaatu). They can perform kamma through the three doors of body, speech and mind. Tiika: Tattha .thapetvaa uddhaccasahagata.m sesa.m ekaadasavidhampi catuusupi apaayesu pa.tisandhi.m deti, pavattivipaaka.m sugatiyampi. Excluding here the consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by restlessness, the other eleven types of unwholesome consciousness produce rebirth-consciousness in the four unhappy planes and they produce also result in the course of life in a happy plane. Uddhaccasahagata.m pana pavattivipaakamevaati. However, consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by restlessness produces result only in the course of life. Etthaahañ ki.m pana kaara.na.m sabbadubbala.m vicikicchaasampayutta.m pa.tisandhi.m deti, But in this case, what is the reason that the (kamma) accompanied by doubt that is the weakest of all, produces rebirth, adhimokkhasabbhaavato tato balavantampi uddhaccasahagata.m na detiiti? whereas the (kamma) accompanied by restlessness, which is associated with determination and thus stronger than that, does not produce rebirth? N: The cetasika determination, adhimokkha, does not accompany doubt, therefore the citta with doubt is called the weakest of all. Determination accompanies the second type of citta rooted in ignorance and thus this is stronger than the first type. Dassanena pahaatabbesu avuttattaa. Because it is not said that it is to be abandoned by insight. N: The defilements that are abandoned by seeing or insight (dassana) are those eradicated by the streamwinner. His path-consciousness is called seeing, since there is the seeing of nibbana for the first time. The defilements abandoned by cultivation (bhaavanaa) are those abandoned by arahatship. Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness completely. The streamwinner has no more conditions to be reborn in an unhappy plane. But since he still has not eradicated restlessness it is said in the Co. that restlessness has no intrinsic capacity to produce rebirth. It is explained that if restlessness could produce an unhappy rebirth, then ariyans who are not arahats could be reborn in an unhappy plane, but this is impossible. Therefore, restlessness can produce only result in the course of life. Tiika: Ida.m hi pa.tisandhi.m denta.m apaayesu dadeyya, apaayagamaniiya~nca dassanapahaatabbanti tattha vucceyya, na ca vutta.m. If this citta would produce rebirth it would do so in unhappy planes, and he would say in that case that since it would lead to unhappy planes it would have to be abandoned by seeing, but this was not stated. Tasmaa pa.tisandhi.m na deti, pavattivipaakadaana.m panassa na sakkaa pa.tikkhipitu.m. Therefore, this does not produce rebirth, but it cannot be denied that it produces result in the course of life. Pa.tisambhidaavibha"nge uddhaccasahagate ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa, In the Book of Analysis (Vibhanga, p. 393), in the section on the analytical knowledges (discriminations, pa.tisambhidaa), it is said that the knowledge of the citta accompanied by restlessness, is the analytical knowledge of origin (dhammapa.tisambhidaa), tassa vipaake ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa²ti vacanato. and that the knowledge of its result is the analytical knowledge of consequence (atthapa.tisambhidaa). N: In this context dhamma stands for cause and attha, litterally ³meaning², stands for result or consequence. As explained before in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 21, 22), there are four Discriminations (Pa.tisambhidas), of which the first two are: Discrimination of Meaning or Consequence, and Discrimination of Dhamma or Condition. As is stated in the Book of Analysis, the citta rooted in ignorance accompanied by restlessness can produce result, but it does so in the course of life. After this passage the Tiika then elaborates further on this issue by way of question and answer. ***** Nina. 35319 From: john duncan Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is one quality when developed, brings all others to culmination? Thank you for posting this sutta, Nori. I am studying Vipassana on my own here in Glendale, AZ, due to the absence of teachers and ability to get to them (I am in a wheelchair). I move all such things to my own file for later perusal and printing without needing to get to a computer. I am very grateful. with metta and great appreciation Duncan nori wrote: Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13 Ananda Sutta To Ananda (on Mindfulness of Breathing) 35320 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:34am Subject: Satipatthana leading to happy rebirth? Hi all, Been studying Satipatthana some. I notice in the Vissudhimagga we see excerpts like this for various meditations, including the following on mindfulness of death, and similarly for the reflection on the four elements. A monk devoted to mindfulness of death is constantly diligent. He acquires perception of disenchantment with all kinds of becoming (existence). He conquers attachment to life. He condemns evil. He avoids much storing. He has no stain of avarice about requisites. Perception of impermanence grows in him, following upon which there appear the perception of pain and not-self. But while beings who have not developed mindfulness of death fall victims to fear, horror and confusion at the time of death as though suddenly seized by wild beasts, spirits, snakes, robbers, or murderers, he dies undeluded and fearless without falling into any such state. And if he does not attain the deathless here and now, he is at least headed for a happy destiny on the break-up of the body. The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga) Why is it that one devoted to these meditations will acquire a happy rebirth, if he doesn't acheive attainments (assuming stream-entry is not assumed in the statement above)? Is it due to condemning evil? I wonder especially because I lack generation of good karma in this life but think if I could maintain myself in one of the vipassana meditations it would conduce to rebirth favorable to continuing to practise the spiritual path. Thanks in advance for any help. peace, andrew levin 35321 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV 92 Dear Sarah: > Glad to hear you're reading the Vinaya now, Icaro. ------------------------------------------------------ I only read the Mahavagga and, at Uposatha days, I TRY to take all Pattimokkha! ------------------------------------------------------ > Appreciate any of your > sharings and help for Gabriel. ------------------------------------------------------ He is a good and typical brazillian lad, full of stamina and doubts!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Now, how can we > encourage Michael to stay > around and not see us as being like a stuck record? > I always find my > discussions with him helpful -- especially the > homework I have to do;-) ------------------------------------------------------ Michael sometimes clinges to the "Self idea"of DSG members. We all are impermanent beings, stucked with false-ego notions and deeply rooted on Dukkha. Sometimes he blame others (sometimes he blames ME!)for the fact that here at dsg we are only names on a list, rupas on a Photo File, ideas and concepts that are only aggregates of Citta and Cetasika. As James would like to remind us, while here at dsg we all lack the human dimension. This dimension you only regain taking the next step at Bangkok, India, etc, meeting other members, hearing Nina speaking in real time, dinning together, playing cards, etc. Heidegger and sartre could add some ideas to this remark... and even at this happy events ( if there are sad ones please don't tell me now!) we are only aggregates of nama-rupa, with more constitutive notes added at our 3D representation ( Kusala, Akusala or avhyakatta). I could suggest to Michael to take a deep breath and CHARGE!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta, > > Sarah > "Agosto 'non' m^es do desgosto" here..... > ============================ ===== 35322 From: nori Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? hi sarah, thanks for your reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > There is no such thing as a direct 'objective' sensation or > > observation. > > > > All sensations are interpretations of the mind. > .... > S: Now I'm not sure what you mean by sensations - rupas or vedana? The > latter can only be known by mind-door cittas, but 7 rupas are experienced > directly through the body-sense. (The rest, including cohesion or water > element can only be experienced through the mind-door). I meant rupas. By the way, what are the 7 rupas ? (if you don't mind) > .... > > They must pass through sense organs, nerves pathways, sensory cortex. > .... > S: As Howard suggested, we need to distinguish these (scientific) concepts > from realities. > .... > > Knowing this, how can we ever see things - as they truly are ? > ... > S: Only by knowing the realities, the namas and rupas. Never by knowing > the scientific details or conceptual constructs. This is where I still have a problem. 'scientific details' are rupas as experienced by hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people who are in consensus. This is consensus reality; I find it is as close to reality as you can come. So then you feel that reality is: ... namas and rupas as one alone directly experiences them ? metta, nori 35323 From: connieparker Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:12pm Subject: AN I, 1- 10 translation Hi, All. This is my translation of AN I, Rupadivaggo. I say 'my' but never would have done it without Nina's help - and kind insistence in the first place. Thank you, Nina. peace, connie AN I, 1-10 Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa. A"nguttaranikaayo Ekakanipaatapaa.li 1. Ruupaadivaggo Devotion to the Perfectly Enlightened Buddha the Arahant Further Factored Collection Book of Ones Chapter On Form and Such 1. Eva.m me suta.m- eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa saavatthiya.m viharati jetavane anaathapi.n.dikassa aaraame. Tatra kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi- "bhikkhavo"ti. "Bhadante"ti te bhikkhuu bhagavato paccassosu.m. Bhagavaa etadavoca- Thus I have heard- Once the Fortunate One was staying at Savatthi, in the Anathapindika Jeta Grove. Indeed, the Buddha addressed the monks there, [inviting them to listen]: "Bhikkhus". "Venerable Sir", the bhikkhus accepted. The Buddha said this: "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekaruupampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, itthiruupa.m. Itthiruupa.m, bhikkhave, purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Pa.thama.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single thing of form, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind, bhikkhus, as the form of a woman. The form of a woman, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind." This is the first thing. 2. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekasaddampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, itthisaddo. Itthisaddo, bhikkhave, purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Dutiya.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single sound, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind, bhikkhus, as the sound of a woman. The sound of a woman, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind." This is the second thing. 3. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekagandhampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, itthigandho. Itthigandho, bhikkhave, purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Tatiya.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single scent, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind, bhikkhus, as the scent of a woman. The scent of a woman, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind." This is the third thing. 4. "Naaha.m bhikkhave, añña.m ekarasampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, itthiraso. Itthiraso, bhikkhave, purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Catuttha.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single taste, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind, bhikkhus, as the taste of a woman. The taste of a woman, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind." This is the fourth thing. 5. "Naaha.m bhikkhave, añña.m ekapho.t.thabbampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, itthipho.t.thabbo. Itthipho.t.thabbo, bhikkhave, purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Pañcama.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single touch, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind, bhikkhus, as the touch of a woman. The touch of a woman, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind." This is the fifth thing. 6. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekaruupampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, purisaruupa.m. Purisaruupa.m, bhikkhave, itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Cha.t.tha.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another thing of form, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind, bhikkhus, as the form of a man. The form of a man, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind." This is the sixth thing. 7. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekasaddampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, purisasaddo. Purisasaddo, bhikkhave, itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Sattama.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single sound, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind, bhikkhus, as the sound of a man. The sound of a man, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind." This is the seventh thing. 8. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekagandhampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, purisagandho. Purisagandho, bhikkhave, itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. A.t.thama.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single scent, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind, bhikkhus, as the scent of a man. The scent of a man, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind." This is the eighth thing. 9. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekarasampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, purisaraso. Purisaraso, bhikkhave, itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Navama.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single taste, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind, bhikkhus, as the taste of a man. The taste of a man, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind." This is the ninth thing. 10. "Naaha.m, bhikkhave, añña.m ekapho.t.thabbampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, purisapho.t.thabbo. Purisapho.t.thabbo, bhikkhave, itthiyaa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Dasama.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single touch, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind, bhikkhus, as the touch of a man. The touch of a man, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a woman's mind." This is the tenth thing. 35324 From: nori Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Howard, H: You've never experienced matter. You've only presupposed it. What you have experienced is rupa: sights, sounds, tastes, smells, odors, solidity, etc. H: We should absolutely distrust what we think we have observed. H: One trusts the "reality" of a dream until one awakens. Sometimes a dream is so odd, that one even starts to realize while dreaming that "this can't be as it seems". H: > As I see it, "physical body" and "brain" and so on, are concepts, > mental constructs (like the Buddha's and Nagasena's chariot), that, in a very > complex way, codify amazing patterned complexes of interrelated "actualities". H: ...And more importantly, there is nothing whatsoever at all that exists *in and of itself*, even for a moment. So then Howard, what are the reasons, what are the experiences, what is the basis, that is the foundation for your view ? peace, nori 35325 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:45pm Subject: Re: AN I, 1- 10 translation Good One, Connie! I love this sutta - there was a film about few years ago entitled "Scent of a Woman" - as I remember Al Pacino won an oscar for it. I admire the hard work that went into the translation - what caused you to pick this particular sutta? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 35326 From: Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/10/04 6:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > H: > You've never experienced matter. You've only presupposed it. What you > have experienced is rupa: sights, sounds, tastes, smells, odors, > solidity, > etc. > > H: > We should absolutely distrust what we think we have observed. > > H: > One trusts the "reality" of a dream until one awakens. Sometimes a > dream is so odd, that one even starts to realize while dreaming > that "this can't be as it seems". > > H: > >As I see it, "physical body" and "brain" and so on, are > concepts, > >mental constructs (like the Buddha's and Nagasena's chariot), that, > in a very > >complex way, codify amazing patterned complexes of > interrelated "actualities". > > H: > ...And more importantly, there is nothing whatsoever at all that > exists *in and of itself*, even for a moment. > > > > So then Howard, what are the reasons, what are the experiences, what > is the basis, that is the foundation for your view ? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What is my "view"? Do you mean "views" (plural) - that is, all the things you quote me on? If so, do you want me to say that I could be wrong? Okay: I certainly could be wrong. Those things I believe to be the case have multiple sources, including, as I know you want me to say, my observations. Also my reasoning. Also, and very strongly so, what I have understood the Buddha to have said. Are all these sources to be held with some doubt. Yes, indeed they are. I do not completely trust any of them, though I trust the Buddha probably most of all, and that, not because he is the supposed perfectly self-enlightened one, but because his teachings have proved their value to me in my life. And to the extent that I have profited from following the practice laid out by the Buddha, I hope that I can trust we I seem to see more than I used to be able to. As far as the individual positions I laid out, well, I think that they all can be fairly well justified in varying ways, and if there are those which you wish to discuss, I'm up for it. If, if the process, I come to see that I'm off-base on any of them, well - that would be great. Truth is what is important, not defending a position. -------------------------------------------------- > > > peace, > > nori > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35327 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Nothing (was Phantom Limbs) Hi Howard, Thanks for your feeding, I really appreciate it. Some more comments follow below. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Beats me! ;-) The bottom line, as I see it, is that nothing > remains. > And more importantly, there is nothing whatsoever at all that exists *in > and of > itself*, even for a moment. > --------------------------------------------- > > My view is opposite, namely nothing disappears, but forms certainly > change. > I agree on your second, more important, point. > ========================== > I think it's very good that you see clearly, even to the point of >expressing clearly that this is how you see the matter. This is a well >established >view held by many (if I properly understand you) - namely that there is an >unchanging "substance" underlying superficial, changing form. It is not, I >believe, a Dhammic view - but that's fine. (No disparagement implied.) The >Sarvastivadins had a similar position, though not quite the same. BTW, I >seem to >recall having read an understanding quite similar to yours expressed by the >great >(Advaita) Vedantist, Shankara. It *may* have been in his Crest Jewel of >Discrimination. ======================== I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time, and I just wanted to ask what you or others' thoughts were on "nothing". For me, nothing is always only a thought, a positive, and never an observation/experience. Awareness is always an awareness of something. And even in the highest jhana, there is still awareness of something. "Nothing" seems to be always framed in a context of "something". Of course there are times when there is no awareness, (which is not the same as awareness of nothing) but "nothing" in that sense is an after the fact inference, not an experience. Awareness, as the seat of knowing (something), has no opposite, because without awareness there is no knowing, and no knowing that there is no knowing :-) I think there has been lively discussion on this before, but it stills beats me how nibbana can be the object of attention/awareness. Bit of a ramble, but I hope you get something out of it :-) Kind Regards Herman 35328 From: Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nothing (was Phantom Limbs) Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/10/04 7:14:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time, and I just > wanted to ask what you or others' thoughts were on "nothing". For me, > nothing is always only a thought, a positive, and never an > observation/experience. Awareness is always an awareness of something. > And even in the highest jhana, there is still awareness of something. > "Nothing" seems to be always framed in a context of "something". > > Of course there are times when there is no awareness, (which is not the > same as awareness of nothing) but "nothing" in that sense is an after > the fact inference, not an experience. Awareness, as the seat of knowing > (something), has no opposite, because without awareness there is no > knowing, and no knowing that there is no knowing :-) > > I think there has been lively discussion on this before, but it stills > beats me how nibbana can be the object of attention/awareness. > > > Bit of a ramble, but I hope you get something out of it :-) > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ============================ You raise interesting (and important, I think) questions, Herman. I *do* think that we can directly (i.e., non-inferentially) notice absences, and especially, cessations. We notice when the lights go out, and then that they *are* out. We notice when a pain stops, and then that there is painlessness. We notice confusion, but we also notice its absence. I think that absences are very, very important. I understand nibbana to be an absence, and I do believe (but do not *know*, of course) it can be experienced. I do know for a fact, that absence of sense of self is a reality that can be experienced, because I did experience it (and wasn't happy about it!! ;-) So, I do believe that absences can be directly known. I also believe that absences are not concepts, but it *is* through the mind door that they are experienced. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35329 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Howard and Sarah, I wonder if the following is relevant here. ===================== > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > The attachment to right view *has* to be relinquished, but the > >view > >itself will also go. > .... > S: We both agree about the attachment. If the view is right view, i.e > panna, then it's a beautiful (sobhana) cetasika which arises and falls but > is always 'good' when it arises, whether it's before or after reaching the > other shore.In other words, right view doesn't become 'wrong' because more > developed right view arises later. > ..... > >A child may have the belief that fire will burn > >her/him, > >because mommy and daddy said so. But once burned, the belief is gone, > >for now the > >child *knows*. > .... > S: hmmm. If there is right intellectual understanding about conditions, > just because direct understanding begins to know them doesn't mean the > intellectual understanding is redundant. Isn't this the spiral analogy > again? > > Now I've written this, I'm not sure we have any disagreement at all here - > maybe why I didn't reply before;-). ====================== > I don't think we have any substantive disagreement on this matter, >Sarah. We're just speaking in slightly different ways. From Majjhima Nikaya 78, Samana-Mundika Sutta "An individual endowed with ten qualities is one whom I describe as being consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. With regard to that point, one should know that 'These are unskillful habits,' I say. With regard to that point, one should know that 'That is the cause of unskillful habits' .... 'Here unskillful habits cease without trace' .... 'This sort of practice is the practice leading to the cessation of unskillful habits,' I say. "With regard to that point, one should know that 'These are skillful habits'...'That is the cause of skillful habits'...'Here skillful habits cease without trace'...'This sort of practice is the practice leading to the cessation of skillful habits,' I say. "With regard to that point, one should know that 'These are unskillful resolves'... 'That is the cause of unskillful resolves'...'Here unskillful resolves cease without trace'...'This sort of practice is the practice leading to the cessation of unskillful resolves' I say. "With regard to that point, one should know that 'These are skillful resolves'...'That is the cause of skillful resolves'...'Here skillful resolves cease without trace'...'This sort of practice is the practice leading to the cessation of skillful resolves,' I say" In the context of the sutta, unskillful resolves cease in the 1st jhana, and skillful resolves cease in the 2nd jhana. Kind Regards Herman 35330 From: Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/10/04 7:55:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I hope that > I can trust we I seem to see more than I used to be able to. ===================== Sorry for the typo. The 'we' was intended to be 'what'. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35331 From: nori Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi Howard, I as well was not trying to defend a position or disprove your position but just only trying to squeeze out of you any insights. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: >As far as the > individual positions I laid out, well, I think that they all can be fairly well > justified in varying ways, and if there are those which you wish to discuss, > I'm up for it. If, if the process, I come to see that I'm off-base on any of > them, well - that would be great. Truth is what is important, not defending a > position. removed] A position I would like to discuss is your position that: 1) nothing exists independently. 2) what you believe to be "direct" experience of rupas are more of a reality than consensus reality, viz. scientific consensus reality; and your distrust in scientific consensus reality. I would be interested in hearing any points upholding your position. peace and metta, nori 35332 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > > > Is it safe to assume that because there was nothing about paramattha as > irreducible, and quite some detail about the enormous complexity of each > moment, that irreducibility is not a quality that needs to be known? >+++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Herman, Thanks for another great question. I think paramattha dhammas (ayatanas, khandas, dhatus) are irreducible in that although, for example, pleasant feeling is conditioned by various factors it is still only that element of feeling - there is no hint of unpleasant (for instance) . The difficulty in conceptualising this is perhaps because we tend to thing of paramattha dhammas(ultimate realities) like little soild atoms- which they are not. As I mentioned before time itself can only be understood by the arising and passingaway of these ephemeral dhammas - they are SO non-lasting. Robk 35333 From: nori Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... hi howard, I also found this article on the internet: "...One group, opposed to any change whatever, came to be known as the Sthaviravadins (Theravadins) who followed what was believed to be the original teaching as agreed at the first Council following the passing of the Buddha. These Sthaviravadins followed a realist line, stating that all phenomena exist and are unstable compounds of elements." http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/maha2.htm peace, nori 35334 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 039 ) Dear Htoo, I like your simile of the truck and the control towre watcher. In this way people can remember more easily, and may still remember when Vis, and Tiika deal with this later on (Vis. 97). Nina. op 10-08-2004 13:08 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > On the highway there are many trucks. These trucks are bhavanga > cittas and their arammanas. Once one of the trucks approach to the > conscious mind compound or vithi vara. When it approaches the first > person to notice is the control-tower-watcher. He is > pancadvaravajjana citta. He knows the truck is approaching. > > Next the gate-keeper of cakkhuvinnana citta opens the gate and the > truck comes in. > 35335 From: matt roke Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:29am Subject: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi Nori, >Howard: As I see it, "physical body" and "brain" and so on, are concepts. >Nori: All experience takes place in the mind, even the most basic sense >experience; its interpretation is constructed in the mind. Nori: This is >where I still have a problem. 'scientific details' are rupas as experienced >by hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people who are in consensus. >This is consensus reality; I find it is as close to reality as you can >come. This is Matt. You have never met me so you have never experienced through any of the rupa senses who this person called Matt is. And yet the word on the computer screen, which impinges as colour, conditions thinking and memory so that there is an idea of a person called Matt. The thought of Matt is momentary, it arises from conditions and falls away immediately to be followed by other experiences. So for that split moment is Matt real and after that moment does Matt fall away? No, at no time is Matt real. What is real is thinking. Thinking arises and thinking falls away. It is of little importance what the thought is about because that is just a concept, which is not real. And then there is the word *Howard*, which conditions thoughts of Howard and a concept of this person Howard who exists somewhere in the world. The thinking is real but not the thoughts about Howard, which are just concept. Nama and rupa realities are impinging on the sense doors right now and there is no Howard to be found. What are the realities creating now? Maybe they are creating the concept *I am in a room communicating with others*. When rupa-realities change then there are different concepts, such as *I am in a different room now*. At that time there may arise thoughts of the first room, but that is the reality of thinking, it is not the rupa that created the concept of being in the first room. In both rooms there are no realities impinging on the rupa-senses that give a concept of Howard being in the room or that there are billions of people outside of the room or that there is a world or a brain. There may be concepts about those things, but they are not realities. When there are conditions for wisdom it arises and knows the reality for what it is. It knows colour, sound, smell, taste, tactal feeling, thinking, lobha, dosa etc. When wisdom does not arise then there is no understanding of what is real and so there are only concepts about a room, a house, a street, a country, a world, a universe and me in it. There are countless millions of concepts created by nama & rupa realities. None are real; the brain, the billions of people, Howard or you. Consensus reality is a concept created by the reality of thinking, how close is that? MattR 35336 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 040 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Pancadvaravajjana citta or 28th citta of 89 cittas arises only when there is pancadvara vithi vara. Pancadvaravajjana ( panca-five, dvara-door, avajjana- adverting/contemplating ) citta is 5-sense-door-contemplating mind. As I gave a simile in the previous post, he is a tower-watcher and checks which ( truck )sense of five comes in. Vithi means series or serial. When you take a route from a city to a city, there are many villages and small towns in between. The route is made up with road linking each of these villages and small towns and each village and town are situated in their specific place. When go driving along that road, villages and towns appear in their specific order. Vara means 'turn' that is 'turn' like her turn, his turn, their turn, our turn, my turn, your turn, etc etc. Vithi vara means '' the turn of vithi cittas ''. That is in this turn, such and such vithi cittas arise and in that turn such and such vithi cittas arise. Pancadvara vithi vara means '' the turn of series of cittas in their specific serial place while experiencing one of five physical senses''. Pancadvaravajjana citta appears only in pancadvara vithi vara. It never arises while in manodvara vithi vara. 28th citta or pancadvaravajjana citta is one of three manodhatu. The other two cittas are sampaticchana cittas of akusala and kusala each. 29th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is .. ''upekkha sahagatam manodvaravajjana citta''. This citta by its name is like pancadvaravajjana citta with the only difference it has the name mano. It works at manodvara. Pancadvara can easily be understood as they are 5 sense organs of eye ( cakkhu pasada rupa ), ear ( sota pasada ), nose ( ghana pasada ), tongue ( jivha pasada ), body ( kaya pasada ). Manodvara unlike pancadvara is not a rupa. Dvara means door, hole, aperture, slit, etc etc. Life starts with patisandhi citta and ends with cuti citta. In between are bhavanga cittas if there are no vithi cittas. If in the whole there had not been any vithi cittas, that whole life will be patisandhi citta+ bhavanga citta1+ bhavanga citta2+ bhavanga citta...infinity..bhavanga citta+ cuti citta. The block of bhavanga cittas would be solid without any holes. But this is not the case. Because there are vithi cittas coming and going in between bhavanga cittas. So just before small block of vithi cittas must be a hole or door. Through that door vithi cittas come in life. Where is that door? That door or manodvara is a bhavanga citta just before manodvaravajjana citta because manodvaravajjana citta is a vithi citta. The lase bhavanga citta before manodvaravajjana citta is called bhavanguppaccheda citta and it is manodvara. When the 29th citta or manodvaravajjana citta does the job of avajjana or tower-watching, it is called manodvaravajjana citta. But in pancadvara vithi, manodvaravajjana also has a function and its function there is determination on the transferred object from santirana citta ( 19th citta for akusala and 26th citta or 27th citta for kusala ). At that time manodvaravajjana citta is called votthapana citta or determining mind. Both pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta are kiriya cittas. Kiriya cittas do not give rise to any kamma or later effect because they just perform their function and do not do any harm. While other 18 kiriya cittas arise only in arahats, these two kiriya citta 28th and 29th or pancadvaravajjana and manodvaravajjana can arise in any person or puggala provided conditions are there. This means when in arupa braham bhumi, pancadvaravajjana citta will not arise as there is no rupa at all. Manodvaravajjana citta is accompanied by 1.phassa or contact, 2.vedana or feeling, 3.cetana or volition, 4.sanna or perception, 5. ekaggata or one-pointedness, 6. jivitindriya or mental life, 7. manasikara or attention, 8. vitakka or initial application/ applied thought, 9. vicara or sustained application/ sustained thought, 10. adhimokkha or determination, and 11. viriya or effort. In manodvara vithi vara, when an object appears at mano dvara, there arises manodvaravajjana citta immediately if the object is very very clear. In manodvara vithi vara, the tower-watcher cannot do anything except watchs and knows the truck ( mind-object ) is coming in. Then 7 successive javana citta arise which may or may not be followed by 2 tadarammana cittas. In pancadvara vithi vara, before javana cittas can arise there are five different stations that the object ( truck ) has to pass. The first is 1.pancadvaravajjana citta ( tower-watcher ), then 2.pancavinnana citta ( gate-keeper ), 3.sampaticchana citta (goods- receiver ), 4.santirana citta ( quality-checker ), 5. votthapana citta which is manodvaravajjana citta ( decision-maker/ determiner ). But in manodvara vithi vara, there is no obstruction betweenthe first encounter citta manodvaravajjana citta and javana cittas. If mind object arises but manodvaravajjana citta does not arise there will not be any vithi citta in mind but just bhavanga cittas. As soon as manodvaravajjana citta arises, there follow 7 successive javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35337 From: Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/10/04 10:14:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > A position I would like to discuss is your position that: > > 1) nothing exists independently. > > 2) what you believe to be "direct" experience of rupas are more of a > reality than consensus reality, viz. scientific consensus reality; > and your distrust in scientific consensus reality. > > I would be interested in hearing any points upholding your position. > > > peace and metta, > > nori > =========================== These matters, especially the first, I think, are major issues that require long and hard study and discussion, and that cannot be quickly "put to rest". So, I think we should start discussing, but in a leisurely way, with the idea of beginning a pleasant journey. The second of the two issues, while harder in a sense, is less crucial, I think, and probably should be dealt with first and more quickly. The distinguishing between so called concept and reality - between so called conventional truth and ultimate truth, has several aspects to it Not everyone means the same thing by this dichotomy. Also, although it is a big issue for many of the folks on DSG, including me because of my phenomenalist perspective, it is not, I believe, an issue that is so crucial for Dhamma practice or for Dhamma theory in general as is the first. Much of the Dhamma is independent of this second issue. What I will submit on this second issue now is the following: A well known saying is "Seeing is believing." But another saying, also valid, is "Believing is seeing." From my personal inspection, it has become clear to me that my mind extracts relational patterns among elements of direct experience and molds them into mental constructs that I view as "things" such as trees, tables, rolls of bathroom tissue, and star systems, and I then invest these constructs with essence - with "true existence". And because humans have similar mentalities which operate similarly on similar experiences, and because we can communicate with each other (via concepts), there is developed a "concensus reality" so that we seem to live in "the same world". But it is clear to me that this is a mentally constructed world, and the "reality" that underlies it consists of interrelated streams of relationally patterned experiential streams. An interesting experiment I engage in from time to time is to look at some "thing" - say a twisted section of paper towel hanging from a roll - and attempt to avoid seeing that "thing," but instead attend to what is actually *seen* rather than cognized. At times, though difficult, it is possible for me to do this to some extent. And when I can do this, the experience is amazing! I will be happy to continue a discussion of this second issue as you wish, and, in more detail, to discuss the important first issue of dependent origination. Dependent origination, and the associated matter of corelessness, lies at the heart of the Dhamma as expressed in the Pali suttas, in the Mahayana sutras (especially in the perfection of wisdom sutras and in the work of Nagarjuna and his followers), and in Theravadin Abhidhamma and commentaries. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35338 From: Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/10/04 11:52:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > hi howard, > > I also found this article on the internet: > > "...One group, opposed to any change whatever, came to be known as > the Sthaviravadins (Theravadins) who followed what was believed to be > the original teaching as agreed at the first Council following the > passing of the Buddha. These Sthaviravadins followed a realist line, > stating that all phenomena exist and are unstable compounds of > elements." > > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/maha2.htm > > peace, > nori > ============================ There *were* segments of the predecessors of Theravada, it seems, who were adherents of a pluralistic realism, but for the most part this was to be found in the Sarvastivadins and the pointillistic Sautrantikas. Both Theravada and Mahayana have fallen into the twin errors of substantialism and nihilism at times, but for the most part, both of these schools are true to the middle way of the Buddhadhamma. There has been a long history of falling into error, and then a corrective phase developing. But for the most part, right view has triumphed. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35339 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment R> paramattha dhammas(ultimate realities) ... they are SO non- lasting. Anything that is not-lasting cannot be a ultimate reality. PEACE E 35340 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... M> There are countless millions of concepts created by nama & rupa realities. None are real... Indeed, but then how should we then take what you have said above? PEACE E 35341 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:22am Subject: Re: (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Nori > A position I would like to discuss is your position that: > > 1) nothing exists independently. > > 2) what you believe to be "direct" experience of rupas are more of a > reality than consensus reality, viz. scientific consensus reality; > and your distrust in scientific consensus reality. > =========================== H> These matters, especially the first, I think, are major issues thatrequire long and hard study and discussion, and that cannot be quickly "put to rest". What is unique to Howard alone without influence? H> So, I think we should start discussing, but in a leisurely way, with the idea of beginning a pleasant journey. E: Even this requires a consensus Howard! PEACE E 35342 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:50am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts Hi Howard, please would you tell me which translation this is, I have to mention it. Is it from the Wheel? I have B.B.transl. with just a few notes but I am interested in the whole Co. This sutta has a very long Co, and I will present it in many small sections. The higher citta. B.B. in his notes speaks about vipassana based on jhana, but it is the opposite in this case: here it is jhana based on vipassana. Also PTS footnote gives: the eight attainments based on vipassana. Only then the citta is pure, higher citta, because one does not take jhana for self. Nina. 35343 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:50am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, M.N. 20 and Co, no 1 Vitakka-Santhana Sutta; Majjhima Nikaya No. 20 The Removal of Distracting Thoughts **** Co: The kusala citta arising with the ten bases of wholesomeness is not higher citta, adhicitta. The citta with the eight attainments that is based on vipassana is higher than that, it is the higher citta. N: the eight attainments in jhana. Here jhana is based on vipassana. Only then the citta is pure, higher citta, because one does not take jhana for self. We have to remember throughout this sutta that the bikkhu who lives his bhikkhu life to the full is developing vipassana with whatever he is doing and his goal is arahatship. The Bhikkhu has left his household life and all the sense pleasures involved with it. His lifestyle is as far removed from the laylife as is heaven from earth. When he abandons akusala thoughts, he is aware of nama and rupa, there is no view of self who is doing this. The Buddha speaks here about the bhikkhu who is going to attain arahatship. Then pañña can have perfect control over his thoughts, there will not be any opportunity for akusala thoughts. When we read this sutta we have to keep this in mind. We read in the Co. that the Bhikkhu returns from his alsmround and sits down in order to develop the Observances of a Recluse (samana dhammas) at the foot of a tree or at another quiet place. Sitting in the lotus posiiton he cultivates the basic meditation subjects, and be endowed all the time with the higher thought. Sutta text: Commentary: A different object: the word nimitta is used, meaning cause. The Co. explains the field or area and the objects of unwholesome thoughts. The eight types of citta rooted in attachment, are the area of thinking with chandha (attachment). The two types of citta rooted in aversion are the area of thinking with aversion. The twelve types of akusala cittas are the area of thinking with ignorance. The cittas that are accompanied by doubt and restlessness are specifically the area of people who have thoughts of doubt and restlessness. Living beings or formations (sa.nkhaara, conditioned dhammas, here, things that are not alive) all of them, are the objects of thinking. When the bhikkhu does not direct his attention to the objects he likes and dislikes, such (unwholesome) thoughts about living beings and formations do not arise. **** Nina. 35344 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana leading to happy rebirth? Dear Andrew L, op 10-08-2004 20:34 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: he dies undeluded and > fearless without falling into any such state. And if he does not > attain the deathless here and now, he is at least headed for a happy > destiny on the break-up of the body.> > Why is it that one devoted to these meditations will acquire a happy > rebirth, if he doesn't acheive attainments (assuming stream-entry is > not assumed in the statement above)? N: He sees the benefit of wholesomeness and this induces him to perform good kamma through body, speech and mind. When he acquires the habit of kusala he has more confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. He will worry less about an unhappy rebirth and then there are also conditions for good cittas shortly before he dies. This conditions a happy rebirth, perhaps again as a human. It is best to develop more understanding of the Dhamma and not expect anything for oneself, because that is attachment. If one goes on and on with developing understanding and all kinds of kusala such as helping others, there is no time for akusala cittas with worry and fear. Nina. 35345 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 0:51pm Subject: How can I be good (was: Satipatthana - happy rebirth?)[long] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:> N: He sees the benefit of wholesomeness and this induces him to perform good > kamma through body, speech and mind. When he acquires the habit of kusala he > has more confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. He will worry > less about an unhappy rebirth and then there are also conditions for good > cittas shortly before he dies. This conditions a happy rebirth, perhaps > again as a human. It is best to develop more understanding of the Dhamma and > not expect anything for oneself, because that is attachment. If one goes on > and on with developing understanding and all kinds of kusala such as helping > others, there is no time for akusala cittas with worry and fear. > Nina. Well I have been reading Dhammastudygroup digest messages in my e- mail and checking the group in spare time.. now I'm a fool so I do it in a mischeivous manner, it's not always reading and making sense of it, much less understanding, so right now it's still an evil way of proceeding. I am in a day hospital program for a serious mental illness I have, and with the help I get from some of the patients there I can on rare occasion come home to my texts, read, UNDERSTAND the content, aspire to place it in context, and have a natural and flowing breath wherein I can almost meditate without effort just as the air gently passes through my nostrils.. but most days I feel unhealthy and I struggle to get the tactile sensation of the air at my nostrils.. I am even obsessed with it. Maybe some background would help. Last year about this time I discovered vipassana meditation via Bhante G's "Mindfulness In Plain English" I saw the emptiness of phenomenon, how beings are related to their merit, and how this nation is on fire. (The all is aflame). Now I had disciplined myself and was doing a lot of contemplation. I would meditate on my bed and contemplate for hours, letting my mind settle, then go back to the computer and read suttas for some time on accesstoinsight.org. On occasion I'd go out with my friends and try to keep my breath even and develop love for them. And I got sprinkles of love going, it was good. Then I stopped going out and really took the discipline harder upon myself, only getting up 3 times a day for water, and doing that reluctantly, just endless meditation. It was helping me get over my ex, too, whom I had had a rough breakup with some time ago. I had also undertaken a health regimen called 'caloric restriction' discovered by Dr. Roy Walford wherein you reduce caloric intake 20-60% for health benefits including extended longevity, reduction of aging-related diseases, and similar benefits. Its mechanism is thought to be that it puts the body into sort of a 'starvation' mode where it preserves the internal organs and feeds energy into the more vital processes. So this my parents did not understand, and with the not going out, they had me sent to an inpatient unit. In there I had my first stark realization of the afterlife as I saw a Christian man was on course for heaven. My meditation was not vipassana at that point, but I was still meditating because it was what I knew. So when I came home after a month I was still meditating but it was not vipassana, it was just sitting and breathing, not even shamatha. I was uncomfortable with this so I began trying to recreate the earlier spring and summer situation wherein I was sitting on the computer disciplined and meditating, reading suttas, only at some point I had let mara take ahold of me and went back to my old ways. Yes I regret to inform you that this is true. I'd like to know if slipping back and making strides forward is normal, if so that'd be somewhat comforting. So I was studying Bodhissatva at this point and talking to people on IRC. As time went on, I ran out of new things to read and began getting caught up in idle chatter on IRC. So now my computer time was pretty evil. My situation nearly eight months later is rather similar. I get caught up easily in mischief. This post, I can tell, is an evil action. I will quote Dhammapada. "How hard it is to serve yourself, how easy to lose yourself in mischief and folly." Even throughout the day, my thought processes or lack thereof are evil, and my former mindfulness (it was weak mindfulness but it was there) is gone (this may be due to the food/sleep/drug treatment of the psychiatric system) and so is my strong vipassana. I can do some shamatha, but it's hard to get the sensation of my breath at my nostrils, I struggle to control the breath, in fact I had previously done some walking meditations by Thich Nhat Hanh in which you did control the breath, so I have many different types of breath and it's quite disconcerting. So I feel like on the computer my task is to overcome my mischief and develop an understanding of the texts and the process I want to go through. For example, there are some people out there who never stopped practising vipassana, and practise while walking all the time. Well I do not know that this would take me through the insight-knowledges. That fact, in conjunction with the fact that I feel I need either momentary or access concentration at the *least*, some type of nimitta, before getting up and practising vipassana /always/, has me waiting to get a really good sitting session going either at home or at weekly services at a Theravada Vihara I attend or on my next retreat. However, I fear that the meditation I do at home is still mostly weak, still not proper shamatha, and is more self-torture than anything. IOW, it's not properly 'taking refuge' in the Buddha. Now I saw that this Christian man was on his path to heaven during this very same 'non- proper' meditation, as we'll call it. I'm not sure, but I don't think the meditation is always good, or bringing me any safety for a favorable rebirth let alone attainments. I'm confused, but my tentative line of reasoning is this: just as the higher deities can only be seen by the lower devas when they make themselves and their bodies apparent, and similarly with all deva encounters with humans wherein the devas make their presence known, so too this Christian man could show me he was on the path to heaven at his will. He did it while I was in meditation. He yelled out something and I opened my eyes and I could see the angelic ring floating around his head. It's a shame that I'm crazy and talking about a psych ward, because that doesn't lend me any credibility, but I'll put a nickel down that some of you have had experiences with the devas or at least apprehended some spiritual truths that are really apparent to anyone looking, but not to the ordinary person. (Can I say that? I'm probably still ordinary. Oh well..) So what could it have been? Could it have been that I was merely abstaining from unwholesomeness, and that I had a mind of good will. I know next to nothing about Abhidharma but I bet it was a certain type of citta that was wholesome. Nevertheless, I can't guarantee that that same citta will remain present in my unproper meditation at home, so while I will still do some of this unproper mediation, hoping to gain access concentration but with odds against me, but it's not nearly as good as it would be if : I learned how to regain the learning sign or access concentration sign, had tactile sensation stable at one point and natural flowing breath, had strong vipassana, and would thereby go on to practise as outlined in Ven. U Silananda's "Four Foundations of Mindfulness," which is basically that vipassana must be practised at all times, in all four postures. And that I had a thorough understanding of the Vissudhimagga and even sub-commentaries, and Abhidharma. (I would like to start Abhidharma but maybe it's too soon). Then I would feel comfortable proceeding, knowing what I was doing, and being assured that I would go through the insight knowledges either practising on the cushion or through daily life. Right now it's like, I practise Satipatthana while taking walks outside, even having mindfulness of breathing, but I worry it's not proper vipassana, and mindfulness of breathing is really the basis of it all. Anyhow, as I was saying, as I practise, the earth devas often appear overhead to me, but I always come home and instead of keeping my meditation with me, at the end of the day I'm a sick materialistic non-observant Jewish kid living in his parents' house. So, this society's idea of health is based on food in sleep, something the Buddha warns us not to indulge in, so it's a fine line. Those two can indeed be the culprits in causing my heedlessness, and we all know how the heedless are. I have read it's not good to have expectations or to yearn for an earlier time in practise, but I once had insight stretching down to the horizon, and could see everything around me in my sphere of attention with insight, including beings and their actions. In retrospect, it could have been a precursor to the divine eye, but then again, I could be overestimating myself. Anyhow, at that time I was practising with my door locked, much to the chagrin of my father, and now I wish to recreate that time but I am not having success. I was really Buddhist then, but now I am not. I would like to practise dharma well, but since my release from my last hospitalization in January, I have not been practising well. I have been on IRC and AOL instant messenger consorting with fools, even to the extent that I have re- become a fool. I even tell lies again. I had really cleaned up all my bad habits aside from the computer, lying and using drugs were the foremost. I've formally taken the five precepts but I've not kept them well. So now I feel like I'm dying and I'm a heedless fool. I recite the names of the body parts as per Vissudhimagga in preparation for the repulsiveness of the body meditation down the road which I am hoping will lead to a happy life, to nirvana, here and now, but in the meantime I am not faring too well. Someone has suggested finding a teacher but I am very sick and caught up in a bad routine, and don't know if I could acquiant myself with a teacher or explain to her the problems in my practise well enough that it would rectify the situation. So for one thing I could wait it out and hope the breathing meditation will come in time, which is really where everything has to be pinned down. It's said that access concentration can be acheived through reflection on the four elements, but I am not confident that I could identify all the elements in my body well enough to acheive that, so I still want the breath meditation on the cushion before I procede. So I hope you now have an idea of where I'm coming from and where I'm at. Hopefully I can overcome my mischievous ways and develop a mind of good will, or at least some positive citta, because I feel unwholesome very very often. Ideas in this area would be most welcome, I could have the patience to wait for the good meditation if I knew I were on a good course despite not having good meditation. Like a monk at the Vihara I visit said, we have to live righteous lay lives. And I want to see the four noble truths, so I've got to be righteous. Mischeif does not allow for that. It even eats away at morality. Oh, and one last thing. You know how the Buddha said, "In this very one fathom-long body I do declare the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the path of practise leading to the cessation of the world?" I've already seen the world in there so if I can keep myself on a righteous course I think in time I can see the other three, and hopefully realize unbinding from there. much thanks, andrew levin 35346 From: connieparker Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Re: AN I, 1-10 translation Thanks, Christine. I remember that movie too - the blind guy driving the sports car. If I remember right, I just picked this one because it's first and I didn't want to spend all day looking for a short one because I was afraid I couldn't do one at all. peace, connie > Good One, Connie! I love this sutta - there was a film about few > years ago entitled "Scent of a Woman" - as I remember Al Pacino won > an oscar for it. I admire the hard work that went into the > translation - what caused you to pick this particular sutta? > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 35347 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] In Australia Hi Sarah, Nina and all, We are letting Robert and family settle in before the weekend's grilling - just a few quiet chats over coffee and on the beach. As you say, Sarah, it is not surprising that we should feel perfectly at ease with each other: after three years on dsg, we are literally old friends. I have taken the opportunity of going over past dsg conversations. There is so much detail that can't quite be picked up over the internet, and so I tend to be asking, "When you said [. . .] did you mean [. . .], and when I said [. . .], was I on the right track?" This tidying up of loose ends has been very productive for me. New questions keep occurring, and there is still my three-page list that began when Robert first accepted the Cooran group's invitation. The fine line between pariyatti and patipatti (theory and practice) has been a recurring theme and that will continue over the weekend. The only unexpected revelation came when I mentioned in passing that I was still a social drinker. No shock, just surprise, and no admonishments to mend my wicked ways. Even so, I do feel a little silly. Maybe my light ale with dinner will become even lighter and less frequent, who knows? Sorry, Nina, not to be giving details so far. Andrew has been preparing a tape-recorder, as per your instructions, but without much encouragement from me (too off-putting for us shy types):-) The weather has been good, considering it is mid-winter, but the surf has been non-existent. Robert's son, Alex, is keen to take one of my boards out – there might be something rideable today. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi RobK, > > Many thanks for keeping us posted and I do hope you feel better soon. No > fun on a flight..... > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > > Have spent a few hours with Ken H already and its like meeting an > > old friend who knows me well. > ... > S: I can imagine;-) > ... > > Christine, Jill Jordan, Azita, Steve, Redge, Ken, myself and other > > Buddhist enthusiasts are all going to be staying at Andrews from > > Friday for a few days of intense, relaxed Dhamma Discussions. > .... > S: I'm thrilled to hear Jill J (a very dear old friend) will be joining > too - those are going to be really great discussions and I hope you all > have a super long week-end. > > Greatly looking forward to everyone's comments (take notes everyone) and > I'm sure you'll be particularly 'inspired' arriving straight from Bkk. > 35348 From: Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment Hi, Eric - In a message dated 8/11/04 11:07:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ericlonline@y... writes: > > R> paramattha dhammas(ultimate realities) ... they are SO non- > lasting. > > Anything that is not-lasting cannot be a ultimate reality. > > PEACE > > E > ======================== Paramattha dhammas are "ultimates" only in the sense that they are not reducible - they are not (mental) compounds or constructs. But they are not ultimates in the sense of being self-existent or in the sense of being prmanent, for they are dependent arisings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35349 From: Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensa... Hi, Eric - In a message dated 8/11/04 11:26:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ericlonline@y... writes: > H> These matters, especially the first, I think, are major issues > thatrequire long and hard study and discussion, and that cannot be > quickly "put to rest". > > > What is unique to Howard alone without influence? > -------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? --------------------------------------- > > > H> So, I think we should start discussing, but in a leisurely way, > with the idea of beginning a pleasant journey. > > > E: Even this requires a consensus Howard! > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. Conversation involves communication, consensus, and concepts. So? ------------------------------------------ > > > PEACE > > E > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35350 From: Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Removal of Distracting Thoughts Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/11/04 1:51:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > please would you tell me which translation this is, I have to mention it. Is > it from the Wheel? > I have B.B.transl. with just a few notes but I am interested in the whole > Co. > This sutta has a very long Co, and I will present it in many small sections. > The higher citta. B.B. in his notes speaks about vipassana based on jhana, > but it is the opposite in this case: here it is jhana based on vipassana. > Also PTS footnote gives: the eight attainments based on vipassana. Only then > the citta is pure, higher citta, because one does not take jhana for self. > Nina. > > ========================= Is this directed to me, Nina? (Or maybe to Ken Howard?) I don't know what you are referring to here. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35351 From: Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Removal of Distracting Thoughts Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 8/11/04 1:51:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > please would you tell me which translation this is, I have to mention it. Is > it from the Wheel? > ===================== I just realized that you were referring to Vitakka-Santhana Sutta; Majjhima Nikaya No. 20. I'm sorry - I didn't save the source information, and I don't know who did the translation. (I found it by a Google search on teeth clenching.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35352 From: nori Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > From my personal inspection, it has become > clear to me that my mind extracts relational patterns among elements of direct > experience and molds them into mental constructs that I view as "things" such > as trees, tables, rolls of bathroom tissue, and star systems, and I then > invest these constructs with essence - with "true existence". And because humans > have similar mentalities which operate similarly on similar experiences, and > because we can communicate with each other (via concepts), there is developed a > "concensus reality" so that we seem to live in "the same world". But it is > clear to me that this is a mentally constructed world, and the "reality" that > underlies it consists of interrelated streams of relationally patterned > experiential streams. I appreciate your explanation, but ultimately I will have to experience this myself to determine what indeed is the truth and reality. Until then I will leave it undetermined. Thanks for the attempt, however. At this point in my practice, this issue is not that important to me. I will focus on my defilements, and continue my (however sparse) meditation. But in the meantime, if I see a rock hurdling toward my head, I will duck. > ... to discuss the important first issue of dependent > origination. Dependent origination, and the associated matter of corelessness, > lies at the heart of the Dhamma as expressed in the Pali suttas, in the > Mahayana sutras (especially in the perfection of wisdom sutras and in the work of > Nagarjuna and his followers), and in Theravadin Abhidhamma and commentaries. I am familiar with the Paticca samuppada, even though I don't understand it. Again, this doesn't seem like something that could be understood intellectually, especially when everything I have observed up to now in my life points toward a world with a material basis. Maybe for the exception of a few times I ate some magic mushrooms :-) peace, nori 35353 From: Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:49pm Subject: Vism.XIV 94, 95 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 94. III. The 'indeterminate' is of two kinds: (i) resultant and (ii) functional. Herein, III. i. 'resultant' is of four kinds according to plane; namely, (A) of the sense sphere, (B) of the fine-material sphere, (C) of the immaterial sphere, and (D) supramundane. Herein, III. i. A. that of the 'sense sphere' is of two kinds, namely, (a) profitable result and (b) unprofitable result. And III. i. A. (a) the 'profitable resultant' is of two kinds, namely, (1) without root-cause and (2) with root-cause. 95. III. i. A. (a) i. Herein, that 'without root-cause' is that devoid of non-greed, etc., as the cause of result. It is of eight kinds as(34) eye-consciousness, (35)-(38) ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness, (39) mind-element with the function of receiving, (40)-(41) the two mind-consciousness-elements with the functions of investigating, and so on [455]. 35354 From: Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/11/04 7:57:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >From my personal inspection, it has become > >clear to me that my mind extracts relational patterns among > elements of direct > >experience and molds them into mental constructs that I view > as "things" such > >as trees, tables, rolls of bathroom tissue, and star systems, and I > then > >invest these constructs with essence - with "true existence". And > because humans > >have similar mentalities which operate similarly on similar > experiences, and > >because we can communicate with each other (via concepts), there is > developed a > >"concensus reality" so that we seem to live in "the same world". > But it is > >clear to me that this is a mentally constructed world, and > the "reality" that > >underlies it consists of interrelated streams of relationally > patterned > >experiential streams. > > > I appreciate your explanation, but ultimately I will have to > experience this myself to determine what indeed is the truth and > reality. Until then I will leave it undetermined. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with that position 100%. What is "clear" to someone else is of little importance to one's own understanding. -------------------------------------------- Thanks for the > > attempt, however. > > At this point in my practice, this issue is not that important to me. > I will focus on my defilements, and continue my (however sparse) > meditation. But in the meantime, if I see a rock hurdling toward my > head, I will duck. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hey, me too! For I know that if I don't, pain will follow (or worse). BTW, please don't misread my position. I believe that concepts and "conventional realities" are essential for our functioning, and, moreover, they provide to worldlings a means of understanding that would not be available to us otherwise. -------------------------------------------------- > > > >... to discuss the important first issue of dependent > >origination. Dependent origination, and the associated matter of > corelessness, > >lies at the heart of the Dhamma as expressed in the Pali suttas, in > the > >Mahayana sutras (especially in the perfection of wisdom sutras and > in the work of > >Nagarjuna and his followers), and in Theravadin Abhidhamma and > commentaries. > > I am familiar with the Paticca samuppada, even though I don't > understand it. Again, this doesn't seem like something that could be > understood intellectually, especially when everything I have observed > up to now in my life points toward a world with a material basis. > Maybe for the exception of a few times I ate some magic mushrooms :-) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm! As a college student in my early 20's I had the opportunity for that, but passed it up. I wouldn't do it now - I gave up alcohol, in fact, as a training precept, over 12 years ago. But ... I must say that I regret having passed it up earlier! ;-) --------------------------------------------- > > peace, > nori > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35355 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Saved Archives Dear Members, Thanks to some hard work by Connie, the DSG archives are now completely backed up and saved for posterity. This completes the work started by Rob Moult. The backing up will be continued from now on. As a temporary measure, the back up files will be uploaded soon to the 'Files' section of DSG in a zipped format (to save space). From there they can be downloaded to a hard drive for continuous browsing/scrolling off-line or for searching. Our next step will be to look for a way of uploading the text from these files to a website so that it can be viewed or searched as a single page (or as few pages as possible). The eScribe back-up for DSG has been down for weeks now and they’ve had a few major crashes of the system, so we’ve been prompted to look for longer-term solutions that depend less on it. Meanwhile thanks for all the contributions as usual. Please remember to keep trimming, so that the archives are as user-friendly as possible (and also because space is limited). Jon & Sarah PS Any queries, suggestions or offers of assistance are welcome, but off-list only please. 35356 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:23pm Subject: Bagels, Forests & Happy Walks (was: Repulsiveness of the body meditation) Hi Andrew L, > Always good talking with you, Sarah, and please, take your time, I'm > in no rush to get this thread over with or anything. .... Thks for this last note. I won’t be rushing out and am perfectly happy to continue threads for years - it’s good talking to you and I greatly appreciated your response, especially as I’m being very direct in my comments as I'd really like to help you get over this difficult 'hump'. I’m going to follow the same formula as last time and pick up various topics from your post to me and maybe others-- looking at the big picture. Pls keep replying as you have been, interspersing your comments and feedback. Topics in no special order: Divine Messengers, Youth and Old Age =============================== You’re very fortunate to be able to listen and appreciate the dhamma at a relatively young age. I was your age when I first started to read/hear and consider the Abhidhamma and it had a tremendous impact, especially listening to K.Sujin talking on a tape about the world in one moment of experiencing a nama or a rupa now, seeing -- hearing or thinking for example-- and how we live in the stories and concepts, not realizing that the only reality at the time is thinking. (Matt R’s posts are excellent examples of what I’m trying to say). Also Nina’s Abhidhamma in Daily Life, then a manuscript, had a great impact as it has on many others. Pls read the first chapter at least: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ At the time I was also following (very intensely) a practise based on pure wrong view as I learnt to see it and much of what you say reminds me of the dangers of wrong practice. Nori asked me about my experience before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24544 Slaves & External Entities ==================== Andrew, we’re slaves to our thinking and the stories conjectured up. When we have ideas of entities, Mara, devas, heavenly beings or other people, these are our ideas only. We’re enslaved only by the kilesa arising with our thinking about our different ideas and hallucinations. I mentioned recently on list that I watched an interesting documentary about Nash, the mathematician (I didn’t see the film). After being diagnosed as schizophrenic for decades and locked up repeatedly, he suddently became ‘sane’. Asked what happened, he said that he stopped paying attention to the heavenly messengers and other creations in his mind that he had given such significane to before -- thinking erroneously that they were going to supply him with the answers. Traditional and Modern Practice ========================== The practice is not in the outer ‘trimmings’. The value of the Buddha’s teachings is that they are about the universal truths that apply to all, in any age and under any circumstances. It’s quite wrong to think that they can only be understood and practised if one lives in another place, leads a different lifestyle and so on. There are countless examples of lay people who became enlightened while going about their ordinary business, looking after families, in the kitchen, running empires, sick and distressed and so on. Modern day society is not the problem!! None of us can just go where we like anytime, but there are always realities to be known. I’m recovering from quite a nasty illness and am still weak from some of the medications. Yesterday I was very tired and spent ten minutes trying to get into my flat which has never been a problem before.Eventually the security guards had to come up and help me. I was turning the key the wrong way! But there were still opportunities for practice during this bizarre incident - rupas experienced through the hand and eyes, agitation and confusion, conceit when I reluctantly had to get help and so on and so on. Thinking about stories of what could be wrong, cold from shivering in the rain. All just as real as the pleasant experiences I’d like to have and none of them belonging to self. The practice has to be one of understanding with detachment from whatever is conditioned. The homeless life was only ever recommended for the few with the right accumulations, not as being easier or the only way.* System hindering Practice ===================== The system or society can never hinder our practice. I know you’ve had very tough experiences and on a conventional level one can find lots of outside forces responsible for our problems. But no one can stop wisdom arising or cause our defilements. They are conditioned and accumulated states depending on so many different factors, especially the latent tendencies or inclinations. Forgetting the Past =============== Truly, what’s gone has gone - both bad and beautiful. The practice has to be at this moment. Clinging to the nightmare experiences you’ve had and the days or months of past good practice won’t help. You referred to MN129 on ‘Fools and Wise Men’. The three fools are the one who follows evil states and actions feeling ‘pain and grief’ ‘here and now’, the second has ‘torture inflicted on him’ as a result of his deeds, experiencing further pain and grief. The third fool is the one who dwells on his past evil actons leading to further anguish, fear and further pain. So better to appreciate the opportunities now for wisdom to develop and when you fall down -- as we all do -- just let it go and start again. Bagels & Groups ============== Mindfulness or satipatthana can only have realities as objects. Whether while eating a bagel, trying to turn a key or sitting at the computer, there are only ever realities appearing through the sense doors and mind door (excluding concepts) which can be known. Sitting quietly or walking in a particular manner doesn’t make these realities any more real. Furthermore, if we have the idea that we shouldn’t eat a bagel because it’ll be an indication of attachment and contrary to our practice, this would be wrong -- an example of trying to live like an arahant rather than understanding the namas and rupas which will lead eventually to the wisdom and detachment of the arahant. When we’re with others, we can also listen or show consideration of others’ difficulties and ignorance too. Opportunities for metta, compassion and of course for further mindfulness when there is understanding of sounds, visible objects, thinking and so on. Don’t be too tough on yourself, Andrew. Of course there’s bound to be some idle chatter, non Buddhist approaches to health and limits to patience in these circumstances. Better not to have expectations of yourself, otherwise it indicates more clinging to self again. I like the commentary note to MN2 which ‘makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention.’ In other words, it’s not the ‘outer’ topic of conversation, but the mind-states that count. Shifting Awareness ================ You said your *awareness* shifts between ‘that of the lone renunciant and one who is thinking within the limits of society.’ Satipatthana only has realities as objects. This is why I said before that what you are referring to is thinking about different concepts or ideas. It’s the same for everyone. We have ideas about ourselves being this or that kind of person, but it’s only thinking. What we take for self are ever changing mental and physical phenomena only (namas and rupas), none of them of any special importance. Cultivating Awareness ================= The important thing is to understand what the objects of awareness are and to appeciate the value of awareness without any special selection of objects. Otherwise there will be more clinging to oneself again, clinging to being aware of particular objects or to having progress. Forget about the past experiences and ask more questions about namas and rupas! ‘Self’ eradicating notion of ‘Self’ right? ============================= Wrong;-) It’s right undersanding which eradicates wrong views. Just the fact that you’re raising these questions shows there is the right kind of consideration and reflection which is more precious that any other kind of good mental state or action, other than direct right understanding of realities. So learn more about what the four foundations of mindfulness really are (see Satipatthana Sutta posts in U.P.). It doesn’t matter whether you sit or stand or follow any other kind of meditation. The important thing is the right consideration and understanding. Without clear understanding of namas and rupas there is no chance of any insight-knowledges arising. Better to appreciate we are beginners on the path and not be so anxious for results -- remember, more clinging leads to more suffering;-). Craving & Renunciation =================== As I’ve discussed, the ultimate meaning of seclusion (vivekaa) refers to seclusion from craving. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31888 I tracked down your earlier AN reference in the Bk of 8s (not 7s) to the Anuruddha Sutta(bk of 8s, x, 30). In the PTS version: “Herein, monks, while a monk dwells in seclusion there come visitors, to wit: monks and nuns, lay-brethren and lay sisters, rajahs and their chief ministers, course-setters and their disciples. Then the monk, with heart inclined towards seclusion, leaning towards seclusion, bending towards seclusion, confines his talk to the subject of going apart.....so what is said, is said on that account.” We recently discussed in detail about the 8 factors in discussions with Victor. (I can try to track down the threads if you like).These include seclusion and renunciation. Anuruddha was ‘leaning towards seclusion’, i.e soon to become an arahant . Cutting off Craving =============== Again, it’s by the development of wisdom with detachment. As you say, by ‘seeing the true nature of reality......etc’. No self to do anything, but even when we wish to be rid of craving, understanding can know the craving at these times too. Happy Walks =========== I love walking too and I’m sure exercise is important for you. Still, have some consideration for your family and the hospital staff..... patience and definitely no lies to those who are trying to help you. I’m sure it’s been a really tough time for your parents too;-). Good Karma ========== None of us know about what kamma has been performed in the countless lives in the past. This is one very short life, Andrew, and there is enough good kamma to be listening and considering the dhamma. It’s not a matter of ‘maintaining’ a vipassana meditation, but coming to terms with one’s life and the realities it’s made up of, however difficult that may be. The path takes a lot of courage, but it’s clear ‘you’ have the courage to ask the right questions. Indeed you’re fortunate to ask these questions at a young age. Please start dialogues with as many people as possible here. These discussions will assist us all and you’ll make many understanding friends. One day I’m hoping to make it to NY to visit DSG friends too. ***** This is already too long. I’ll just thank you for sharing your other background info and comments in your other letter to Nina. Thanks for trusting us here and just pick out comments that are helpful and leave any others;-) Metta, Sarah ======= *Please read: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18736 In the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS, Classification of the Jhanas,1799f) there is some detail about all the terms used in the descriptions such as ‘secluded’,’forest’, ‘tree root’, ‘jungle thicket’ and so on. Under ‘vivitta.m (‘secluded’) we read that forest dwelling is not for everyone: ..... “What does he show by vivitta.m (‘secluded’)? He shows a suitable abode as a place of training for a course of practice (yoga) for that bhikkhu. For a forest dwelling is appropriate for one who has within him a certain number of qualities. But for one in whom they are not, it is inappropriate, since for such a one dwelling in the forest is like the jungle dwelling of black monkeys, bears, hyenas, leopards, deer and so on. Why? Because of having entered it on account of a need (cf Mi 19). For there is no benefit based on a forest dwelling at all for him. He fouls both forest dwelling and the forest dwellers and he creates distrust in the dispensation. But it is appropriate only for one in whom there are a certain number of qualities. For in a forest dwelling he establishes insight, reaches Arahatship and attains complete extinction; he glorifies all forest dwellings, he washes the head of forest dwellers and he extends the whole dispensation. That is why the Master said: ‘He frequents a secluded abode’ and so on, showing a suitable abode as a place of training for a course of practice for such a bhikkhu.” ...... I think the phrase ‘for such a bhikkhu’ is important. We have to know our own ‘qualities’ and what is ‘appropriate’. ============================== 35357 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] A way to make merit and reduce lust at the same time Hi Antony, (Connie, Nori, Victor, Matt & All), --- antony272b2 wrote: > Dear Group, > > I came up with an idea to make merit and reduce lust at the same time. > I gave a donation to the Rape Crisis Centre. > I have found that compassion towards women is an antidote to lust. > > I am very interested in making merit and reducing greed or lust, > hatred and delusion. Any ideas from the Group would be appreciated. ..... S: Thank you for sharing your good deeds and discussing this area with us and giving us the opportunity to anumodana. In the suttas, merit is generally classified under dana, sila and bhavana. The commentaries generally elaborate further and give a list of 10 bases of meritorious action (punna-kiriya-vatthu). http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm >In the suttas, 3 are mentioned -consisting of giving (liberality; dána-maya-p.), -of morality (síla-maya-p.) and -of mental development (meditation; bhávaná-maya-p.). See D.33; It.60; expl. in A.VIII.36. Commentaries have a list of ten (dasa p.) which is very popular in Buddhist countries: -(1)-(3) as above, -(4) reverence (apaciti), -(5) service (veyyávacca), -(6) transference of merit (pattánuppadána), -(7) rejoicing in others' merit (abbhánumodana), -(8) expounding the Doctrine (desaná), -(9) listening to the Doctrine (savana), -(10) straightening one's right views (rectification of views; ditthujukamma). - < ***** S: We may not consider ‘straigtening of our views’ and the development of wisdom as being the highest form of good deed and good kamma, but of course it is. Of course, listening to the Doctrine doesn’t mean ‘just listening’, but understanding the reality at that moment. At any moment of kusala, there is reunciation -- renunciation of akusala at that instant. But it’s momentary and cannot be measured in terms of the action. For example, one moment we might look at a flower with attachment -- no renunciation. The next moment there may be no attachment and giving away of the flower or understanding of visible object for an instant. Renunciation momentarily and then gone again. With regard to your questions about the memories of the beautiful woman, I thought RobK and Matt gave excellent replies. ..... A: >I would like to know how to deal with memories of a beautiful woman I met >once. Is it too late to perceive her as unattractive with asubha practice?. ..... Matt: >Memories of a beautiful woman are just more realities arising and falling away. There is the reality of thinking, the reality of lobha (finding her attractive and wanting to purge the thought) and maybe the reality of dosa (regret or guilt about having the thought). >Changing the thought from one that is attractive to one that is unattractive is not wisdom. It is still just thinking accompanied by cetasikas that are unknown because of ignorance. >Wisdom doesn’t discriminate as to whether a thought is about a pretty girl or an ugly corpse, it just knows the reality of thinking for what it is.< ..... S: His post to Nori is also relevant and helpful (imho of course and no, Herman, we haven’t met!) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35335 Matt: >When there are conditions for wisdom it arises and knows the reality for what it is. It knows colour, sound, smell, taste, tactal feeling, thinking, lobha, dosa etc. When wisdom does not arise then there is no understanding of what is real and so there are only concepts about a room, a house, a street, a country, a world, a universe and me in it. There are countless millions of concepts created by nama & rupa realities. None are real; the brain, the billions of people, Howard or you. >Consensus reality is a concept created by the reality of thinking, how close is that?< .... S: Spot on!! ***** S: From SN22:100(8) The Leash (2) (or The Masterpiece): “Even that picture called ‘Faring On’ has been designed in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called ‘Faring On’......... "Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldlong produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception...only volitional formations....only consciousness that he produces. “What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?” - “Impermanent, venerable sir.”.....”Therefore....Seeing thus....He understands: ‘.....there is no more for this state of being.’” ****** S: Like the simile of the conjurer’s trick, we live in a world of illusions all the time. Straightening our views by understanding more about the khandhas, about namas and rupas is the highest merit of all. Antony, I also think that the sutta translation AN1, 1-10, given by Connie -- one that always is full of great reminders for me --may be very useful too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35323 I’m very grateful for the Pali alongside, Connie. .... C: >“Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekaruupampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, itthiruupa.m. Itthiruupa.m, bhikkhave, purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Pa.thama.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single thing of form, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind, bhikkhus, as the form of a woman. The form of a woman, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind." This is the first thing.” < **** S: Here, by form is meant visible object. When there is the idea of a woman and one is overwhelmed by it, it ‘stays in a man’s mind’. When there is the understanding of visible object and the other realities appearing through the sense doors, one at a time, there is the development of satipatthana and no lust or other kilesa (defilements) at these moments of guarding the sense doors. So again, understanding of namas and rupas appearing, rather than ‘a woman’ or ‘man’ is the only real solution!. Also, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the story about the monk who was so infatuated with Sirima the courtesan that he was unable to eat. Eventually he was shown her corpse rotting away and became enlightened. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12993 Talking about ‘scents’, Victor also found some good passages: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34522 V: >V.4 -- Nanda's Vision {vv. 82-86} [Thanissaro Bhikkhu, trans.] "Sick, putrid, unclean: look, Nanda, at this physical heap. Through contemplation of the foul, develop your mind, make it one, well-centered. As this [your body], so that. As that, so this. It gives off a foul stench, the delight of fools."< ***** Look forward to more of your comments, quotes and reflections, Antony or anyone else. Metta, Sarah ====== 35358 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Nori, --- nori wrote: > > > There is no such thing as a direct 'objective' sensation or > > > observation. > > > > > > All sensations are interpretations of the mind. > > .... > > S: Now I'm not sure what you mean by sensations - rupas or vedana? > The > > latter can only be known by mind-door cittas, but 7 rupas are > experienced > > directly through the body-sense. (The rest, including cohesion or > water > > element can only be experienced through the mind-door). .... S: I corrected this to '7 rupas are experienced through the sense-doors' .... N:> I meant rupas. By the way, what are the 7 rupas ? (if you don't mind) .... S: The 7 rupas are visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 directly experienced through the body-sense, i.e hardness/softness, heat/cold and motion/pressure. Htoo's series on cittas gives a lot of excellent detail. Back to your original statement about ‘all sensations’ being ‘interpretations of the mind’, this doesn’t make sense. When seeing sees visible object or hardness is experienced through the body-sense, it is experienced directly, quite different from the interpretation. Perhaps you mean there is no awareness and so we live in the world of our interpretations (see my last post to Antony & All). .... N: > This is where I still have a problem. > > 'scientific details' are rupas as experienced by hundreds of > thousands, maybe millions of people who are in consensus. > > This is consensus reality; I find it is as close to reality as you > can come. .... S: See Matt’s post . Thx for the help, Matt. .... N: > So then you feel that reality is: > > ... namas and rupas as one alone directly experiences them ? ... S: Yes, though of course it is actually the citta (and accompanying cetasikas) not ‘one’ that experiences. I cannot experience ‘your’ visible object or hardness for example! Please ask any more questions or add further comments. Metta, Sarah ===== 35359 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] On focusing & directing awareness (reply to Sarah & Jon) Hi Nori, --- nori wrote: > I agree with the idea that mindfulness of all dhammas are required > for emancipation. > > However, it is obvious from the Suttas, that an element of focus & > directing of the awareness at times is also necessary for > emancipation (I am not speaking from experience, however). Namely, > focusing and directing the awareness onto the motion of the breath > and body for periods of time. .... S: My yoga and Tai chi friends are also used to such focus but does it take them any closer to emancipation? It doesn’t need a Buddha to teach it if so. What makes such a focus or direction kusala? What distinguishes ‘your’ focus and awareness from a non-Buddhist focus and awareness of breath and body for periods of time? This doesn’t mean that I think they are wrong as followed by most practitioners. However, I think the view that such focussing will lead one to any emancipation is very wrong. .... N: > It is true, for me also, in meditation that "control and > focussing ... simply led to more, rather than less suffering." > However, I believe once one develops conviction in the idea that this > practice is truly beneficial and worth while, then it would no longer > be suffering because one would be aware that this is the best action > at certain times that one could take for his own benefit. .... S: What kind of benefit? Again, I think that blind concentration and focussing without any understanding of conditioned dhammas, merely leads to more wrong view and can potentially be very dangerous if carried out to an extreme, usually by intelligent and intense practioners. Concentration and jhana factors can be wrong as well as right. Focussing is a very poor translation of sampajanna or wisdom. ...... N: > Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13 <....> > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings > the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness)..." > > --- > > ... and what is mindfulness of in-and-out breathing ? > > Since one is not normally/naturally/typically aware of the motion of > ones own breath, is it not the directing of the awareness for periods > of time ? .... S: A lot has been discussed on the Anapanasati sutta, whom it was addressed to and so on. Pls see all the posts on this topic in U.P. Whatever is being discussed in the texts concerns the development of satipatthana which only the Buddha realized and taught. So, as you say, one is not normally/naturally/typically aware of the motion of one’s own breath. If one directs awareness to it for periods of time, it shows the purpose is to select of focus on a particular object with an idea of self that can control awareness (unless it’s for health or other reasons). In other words, this is not satipatthana. For those for whom it already is natural to focus in this way, then satipatthana concerns again the awareness and understanding of the conditioned realities at that time.For example, later in the same sutta it says: “Whenever, Ananda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body [S: understands rupa as rupa], on that occasion unmuddled mindfulness is established in the bhikkhu........ “Dwelling thus mindfully, he discrimates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it.........” This sutta is clearly addressed to those for whom jhana is a basis for insight and for those who are normally/nturally/typically aware of these jhanic states. Eventually wisdom has to develop of whatever is conditioned now with detachment, whether that reality is seeing, hearing, extreme dosa or jhanic states. Wishing, minding, focussing and selecting leads to more attachment, not detachment as I see it. .... N: > Also, an excerpt from an article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu - The Agendas > of Mindfulness: > > "The Pali term for meditation is bhavana: development. It's a > shorthand word for the development of skillful qualities in the mind. > Bhavana is a type of karma -- the intentional activity leading > ultimately leading to the end of karma -- but karma nonetheless. This > point is underlined by another Pali term for meditation: kammatthana, > the work at hand; and by a Thai idiom for meditation: "to make an > effort." These terms are worth keeping in mind, to counterbalance the > common assumption that meditation is an exercise in inaction or in > passive, all-encompassing acceptance. <....> .... S: It depends what one means by ‘action’ and ‘inaction’. Straightening one’s views or understanding namas and rupas might seem very inactive to some;-) When one understands the meaning of conditioned dhammas and anatta, there is no question about action and inaction -- one understands that bhavana (whether samatha or vipassana) depends on the respective understanding and mental states such as right effort which always accompanies right understanding. That’s all. No special flashing light or action, for example;-). Metta, Sarah In my other post on feelings/sensations, I wished to also refer you to these ones of Nina’s: 34448, 34449, 34451 which were written while we were away.: Nina:”Even though there is an underlying idea of self no matter what we do, I still think that the beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much. There is a Thai expression: understanding must get into your bones.” .... “When we say sensation, we assemble many dhammas together into a whole: bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. That is not the way to know just feeling that is pure nama. If we do not know feeling as pure nama, it will always be my feeling, we shall not reach the goal. We take it for lasting and self.” ====== 35360 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 040 ) Dear Htoo, Great to see you back and I'm glad you're continuing this excellent series. The best! Beautifully presented and very useful. I have a few comments on your definitions of terms (in another post), but am out of time now. My main point concerned your comments that 'anything' is the object of vipassana. I'll try to come back to your post later - one or two other details too (probably after the weekend). Metta and apprciation, Sarah ===== 35361 From: Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi, Sarah (and all others here Abhidhammically unchallenged) - In a message dated 8/12/04 5:25:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > S: The 7 rupas are visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 directly > experienced through the body-sense, i.e hardness/softness, heat/cold and > motion/pressure. ========================= Is there any commentary or suttic or abhidhammic explanation available as to why liquidity/cohesiveness is not experienced at the body door. I do have some sense of it being correct that it is not. On the other hand, when there is a liquid on my hand, whether warm or cold or somewhere in the middle, the "liquid aspect of it" feels different than hardness or pressure (though, of course, I can detect some hardness/pressure as part of the experience as well). It's not entirely clear to me that the "water" experience is not via the body door, at least in part. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35362 From: Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi all - Correcting my English usage: In a message dated 8/12/04 8:37:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > feels different than should be "feels different from". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35363 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and all others here Abhidhammically unchallenged) - ..... Not me, for sure;-) .... > > S: The 7 rupas are visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 > directly > > experienced through the body-sense, i.e hardness/softness, heat/cold > and > > motion/pressure. > ========================= > Is there any commentary or suttic or abhidhammic explanation > available > as to why liquidity/cohesiveness is not experienced at the body door. I > do > have some sense of it being correct that it is not. .... S: Yes, you're correct. I think it was Azita who asked more about this before too. Thanks to Larry and Nina (& U.P.), I can give you these links to the Vism, Tika and Nina's additional comments on this point. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32489 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32615 ..... >On the other hand, > when > there is a liquid on my hand, whether warm or cold or somewhere in the > middle, the > "liquid aspect of it" feels different than hardness or pressure (though, > of > course, I can detect some hardness/pressure as part of the experience as > well). > It's not entirely clear to me that the "water" experience is not via the > body > door, at least in part. .... S: Temperature most certainly too. I think the thinking comes in so quickly and we're so used to thinking we can experience water, but the liquid aspect is not experienced through the body-sense. Let me know if you want more! Metta, Sarah ======= 35364 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:37am Subject: Setting up foundation for jhana ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Jhana is not confined to Buddhism. So any person any religion any race any sex or gender any locality can access jhana things. Jhana has been there even before The Buddha. We all are governed by citta of different kinds at different time. Citta will be in one of four groups according to bhumi or realm or plane of existence where they arise. They are kama, rupa, arupa or lokuttara. Lokuttara is the area that overcomes loki ( worldly things ). If leave that alone, there are three, among which again kama cittas are there everywhere. Kama cittas are cittas that are arising day to day and even moment to moment. Kama cittas are so trembling, shaking, wavering and upset. But people of today like their present situations related to kama. Jhana is noble one and it stands out of kama things. Actually, if kama citta comes then jhana citta gone. They never co-exist. Do remember ''vipayutta paccayo''. To do the practice of jhana, it is necessary to avoid kama things. For beginners, there are some necessary things to follow as a jhana practitioner. Be always ready to respond with metta. Always avoid dosa ( anger, hatred, fury, anxiety, desparity), as dosa is enemy of jhana. Practice four brahmavihara or brahmacariya that is metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha as much as possible. In this series,I am going to write about kasina. The necessary foundation for kasina is to observe five precepts along with avoiding abrahmacariya ( avoid sex things, including viewing, thinking, and any things related to sex and sensual things ). If any query arise, please do not hesitate to enquire. I will be most grateful if you shoot questions but clearly. I do hope members enjoy reading this series and obtain some ideas how to practice jhana. And finally touch the taste of jhana and feel how it is like. May you all be free from any suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 'touch' & 'taste' in last sentence do not represent rasa and photthabba. 35365 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment H> Paramattha dhammas are "ultimates" only in the sense that they are not reducible - they are not (mental) compounds or constructs. I know, I just dont buy it currently. :-) PEACE E 35366 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Setting up foundation for jhana ( 01 ) Dear Htoo: > Jhana is not confined to Buddhism. So any person any > religion any > race any sex or gender any locality can access jhana > things. >------------------------------------------------------ That's a fact.At Vissudhimagga, chapt.3 to 5 Buddhaghosa describes all methods and paths to attain up the two phases of Jhana: access and absorption. Everyone interested in comparative religion will recognize in these approachs many devotional practices not only of early hinduism, but of Christianism, Jewish (Hassidic prayers), Muslim and Tao, for example. ------------------------------------------------------ Jhana > has been there even before The Buddha. We all are > governed by citta > of different kinds at different time. Citta will be > in one of four > groups according to bhumi or realm or plane of > existence where they > arise. > > They are kama, rupa, arupa or lokuttara. Lokuttara > is the area that > overcomes loki ( worldly things ). If leave that > alone, there are > three, among which again kama cittas are there > everywhere. Kama > cittas are cittas that are arising day to day and > even moment to > moment. > > Kama cittas are so trembling, shaking, wavering and > upset. But people > of today like their present situations related to > kama. Jhana is > noble one and it stands out of kama things. > Actually, if kama citta > comes then jhana citta gone. They never co-exist. Do > > remember ''vipayutta paccayo''. To do the practice > of jhana, it is > necessary to avoid kama things. ------------------------------------------------------- If you have Kama, you haven't Jhana. The first degress of access jhana are achieved when at a recollection of Buddha's qualities, of Dhamma's, Sangha, Deva's, etc, the practicioner keeps out all mundane tracts. After the gathering of a recollection's issues, absorption Jhana comes. ------------------------------------------------------- > > For beginners, there are some necessary things to > follow as a jhana > practitioner. Be always ready to respond with metta. > Always avoid dosa > ( anger, hatred, fury, anxiety, desparity), as dosa > is enemy of > jhana. Practice four brahmavihara or brahmacariya > that is metta, > karuna, mudita and upekkha as much as possible. > > In this series,I am going to write about kasina. The > necessary > foundation for kasina is to observe five precepts > along with avoiding > abrahmacariya ( avoid sex things, including viewing, > thinking, and > any things related to sex and sensual things ). > > If any query arise, please do not hesitate to > enquire. I will be most > grateful if you shoot questions but clearly. I do > hope members enjoy > reading this series and obtain some ideas how to > practice jhana. And > finally touch the taste of jhana and feel how it is > like. > > May you all be free from any suffering. ------------------------------------------------------ Excellent, Htoo!!! I hope there's a lot coming on about Jhana. Buddhaghosa is entirely clear and definite about it, but many readers will enjoy resumed and ellucidating Jhana's texts and works! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== 35367 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:16am Subject: Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are associations. In these days, there arise more and more associations. Society is a group and a group consists of members. Even within a society there are many associations. And association has to arise as members have to support each other and one another. The Buddha existed. But not alone. There was an association. This association becomes The Sangha. The Buddha preached dhammas. The Sangha maintain The Dhamma. The Sangha as an association carry on their job very very bravely. As soon as The Buddha did mahaparinibbana, there arose some disregarding words from some puthujana bhikkhus. The Elders noticed that this might be the start of dissociation. As The Buddha predicted the teachings will last 5000 years. The dissociation will be the worst after 5000 years. As an association, The Sangha maintain the teachings at first by traditional oral citation on daily basis. These duties passed until 4th Buddhists Council when the teachings were all put into written language. The Elders maintain the teachings to the purest. In Pali Elder is called Thera. The teachings are called Theravada teachings. The teachings in this association called The Sangha are intended for liberation. Liberation from binding effect of craving, attachment, tanha, lobha, etc etc. Among The Buddha teachings, bodhipakkhiya dhamma are actually an association. As The Sanghi is an association, bodhipakkhiya dhamma are also association. Unlike other associations, the association of bodhipakkhiya dhamma is the strongest and the members of bodhipakkhiya dhamma are inseparable. This is because they always arise together and not any of members of bodhipakkhiya dhamma is left out when bodhi nana arises. This association is the firmest and the most durable association that ever exists. Bodhipakkhiya is a Pali word. Bodhi here means bodhi nana and bodhi nana means enlightenment. Pakkhiya means associated members. So bodhipakkhiya dhamma are dhamma that always arise when bodhi nana arises and they always arise together and at the same time and not any dhamma of these 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma remains inactive. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35368 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 041 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 30th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is called.. ''somanassa sahagatam hasituppada citta''. Somanassa has three components namely 'so' 'mana' and 'assa'. 'So' means good, pleasurable, pleasant, positive. 'Mana' means mind. 'Assa' is a possessive word for grammatical use. All in all, somanassa means pleasurable mental state. It is joy. Mana is mind but maana which is also written as 'Mana' is a cetasika which is conceit. This is for clarification. Saha means along with, in parallel with and gata means 'to go'. So this citta goes together with pleasant mental state that is joy. Hasituppada again is made up of 'hasi' which is 'smile' and 'uppada' which means 'arising'. So hasituppada citta is 'smile producing mind'. There are 20 kiriya cittas. 18 cittas arise only in arahats. Among 18 javana kiriya cittas this 30th citta is ahetuka kiriya citta. That is there is no hetu such as lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha. Arahats including The Buddha very occasionally smile. When they smile, this citta somanassa sahagatam hasituppada citta arise. One of the occasions that The Buddha smiled is when Venerable Ananda expressed that Paticcasamuppada is easy for him ( Ananda ). So far 30 cittas out of 89 cittas have been discussed. These 30 cittas are called asobhana cittas. Asobhana means 'not beautiful'. It is quite clear that 12 akusala cittas are not beautiful and no one would deny this fact. But 7 akusala vipaka cittas and 8 kusala vipaka cittas are not kusala cittas and not akusala cittas. These 15 vipaka cittas which very frequently arise are also asobhana cittas. They are not beautiful because there is no beautiful hetus such as alobha, adosa, and amoha associated with them. Again both pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta which are kiriya cittas are not beautiful ones. This again is because they are not accompanied by beautiful hetu such as alobha, adosa, and amoha. Hasituppada citta which arises only in arahats is not a beautiful citta because this citta does not have any beautiful hetu like alobha, adosa, and amoha. Apart from these 30 cittas all other cittas are called sobhana cittas or beautiful cittas because they have two or three beautiful cetasikas called alobha, adosa, and amoha. There are 59 beautiful cittas. If cittas are calculated as 121 cittas in total because of jhana cittas in lokuttara, then there will be 91 sobhana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35369 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensa... > H> These matters, especially the first, I think, are major issues > thatrequire long and hard study and discussion, and that cannot be > quickly "put to rest". > > E> What is unique to Howard alone without influence? > -------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? --------------------------------------- What is not interdependent in Howards world? You say it requires long hard study. I am just showing a line of questioniong that cuts right to the chase. > > > H> So, I think we should start discussing, but in a leisurely way, > with the idea of beginning a pleasant journey. > > > E: Even this requires a consensus Howard! > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. Conversation involves communication, consensus, and concepts. So? Sorry, I reread Nori's post. She was stating her view of your view, I think. I thought you were questioning the need or idea of consensus. Even 'nama' & 'rupa' is a consensus. We are conditioned all the way down and up is all I was implying. PEACE E 35370 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN I, 1-10 translation Dear Connie, The sutta points to satipatthana: a man may be obsessed by a woman, but what is really there? Visible object, sound, scent, savour, touch, just one dhamma appearing at a time. In the ultimate sense there is no woman to be obsessed by. This sutta is deep in meaning. By the way, Bhante is in retreat, now it is up to us to give a translation. I have a time problem, though. Nina. op 11-08-2004 22:10 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: I just picked this one because it's first and I didn't > want to spend all day looking for a short one because I was afraid I > couldn't do one at all. 35371 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts Dear Matt and Nori, When I read what Matt writes I just feel joy, piti and somanassa! Matt, you explained very clearly about concepts and realities. I want to share something I heard on MP3. But I feel for some it is hard to digest, because it is a difficult subject. The subject I listened to was about insight, when it is clearly known what a reality is, different from concept. Insight wisdom arises, realizes a stage of understanding, but it falls away. Then one has to apply the knowledge one gained at such a moment. Nama and rupa that appear one at a time we do not have to call by any name. Their characteristics can be directly realized. op 11-08-2004 12:29 schreef matt roke op mattroke@h...: > When there are conditions for wisdom it arises and knows the reality for > what it is. It knows colour, sound, smell, taste, tactal feeling, thinking, > lobha, dosa etc. When wisdom does not arise then there is no understanding > of what is real and so there are only concepts about a room, a house, a > street, a country, a world, a universe and me in it. N: I heard this: Nina. 35372 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] How can I be good Dear Andrew L, Thank you for your sincere letter. I shall only touch on a few points. I do not see that you were reading the posts in a mischievous manner. op 11-08-2004 21:51 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > Well I have been reading Dhammastudygroup digest messages in my e- > mail and checking the group in spare time.. now I'm a fool so I do it > in a mischeivous manner, it's not always reading and making sense of > it, much less understanding, so right now it's still an evil way of > proceeding. ... I'd like to know if slipping back and making > strides forward is normal, if so that'd be somewhat comforting. N: Ups and downs, normal for everybody here. How can it be otherwise. A: This post, I can tell, is an evil > action. N: Sorry, I do not see this. It is so easy to misunderstand what vipassana is. I think you mean something else by it than I do. A: .. and my former > mindfulness (it was weak mindfulness but it was there) is gone (this > may be due to the food/sleep/drug treatment of the psychiatric > system) and so is my strong vipassana. N: As I see it, if we believe our vipassana is strong, there may not be true vipassana: understanding of whatever reality appears now. How can it be strong when it is merely developing during countless lives? A: For example, there are some people out there > who never stopped practising vipassana, and practise while walking > all the time. N: Then they would be arahats. A: I'll put a nickel down that > some of you have had experiences with the devas or at least > apprehended some spiritual truths that are really apparent to anyone > looking, but not to the ordinary person. N: It is not that I do not believe you. In India I and others heard chanting, and friends in Thailand had experiences. But this may sound crude to you, I am inclined to say: so what? Does all this help to know the present reality, like seeing now? Is understanding not far more precious than any such experiences? A: (I would like to start Abhidharma but maybe it's too > soon). N: Never too soon, but do ask questions, otherwise you may be confused by the terms. A:Then I would feel comfortable proceeding, knowing what I was > doing, and being assured that I would go through the insight > knowledges either practising on the cushion or through daily life. N: it has to be daily life, otherwise it is not vipassana. We have to know our own accumulated tendencies. A. at the end of the day I'm a sick > materialistic non-observant Jewish kid living in his parents' house. N: Do your parents live according to the Talmud? You could learn good sila from them. Do not throw away your tradition and all you got from your parents. Later on you will be grateful to them. A: I've formally taken the five precepts but I've not kept > them well. N: Only the sotapanna who has attained the first stage of enlightenment can keep them perfectly. A: So for one thing I could wait it out and hope > the breathing meditation will come in time, which is really where > everything has to be pinned down. It's said that access > concentration can be acheived through reflection on the four > elements, but I am not confident that I could identify all the > elements in my body well enough to acheive that, so I still want the > breath meditation on the cushion before I procede. N: the breathing meditation is one of the most difficult ones annd if not done properly it will lead to more clinging instead of detachment. Access concentration: not necessary for vipassana. A: So I hope you now have an idea of where I'm coming from and where I'm > at. Hopefully I can overcome my mischievous ways and develop a mind > of good will, or at least some positive citta, because I feel > unwholesome very very often. N: This is a degree of understanding. People think: if I keep the precepts I am very wholesome, but what about their thoughts? Through vipassana one can discover that there are many more akusala cittas in a day than kusala cittas. Just common for everybody. A: You know how the Buddha said, "In > this very one fathom-long body I do declare the world, the origin of > the world, the cessation of the world, and the path of practise > leading to the cessation of the world?" N: Actually it means: you do not have to go far away to find the objects of which you can develop understanding: the cittas that arise now, the rupas of the body, any reality that appears now. That is the way to understand what the world is. The world is another name for the five khandhas. These have to be understood as dukkha. In this sutta it is another way of stating what the four noble truths are, in relation to the world, the five khandhas. Nina. 35373 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is one quality when developed, brings all others to culmination? Dear Duncan, I looked up the sutta, it is a difficult one. I have some commentarial material I collected when doing my study of anapanasati, and also I have the Co to these suttas in Thai. Duncan, if you have questions on the text, you are welcome. Nina. op 10-08-2004 17:48 schreef john duncan op bluescatplayah@y...: > Thank you for posting this sutta, Nori. > Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13 > Ananda Sutta > To Ananda (on Mindfulness of Breathing) 35374 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] In Australia Dear Ken, thanks for your nice post. A few remarks (but only approving!) op 11-08-2004 23:28 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: The > fine line between pariyatti and patipatti (theory and practice) has > been a recurring theme and that will continue over the weekend. N: Yes, we always discuss this with A. Sujin. When is it direct awareness? But the fact that we ask shows some lobha lurking here, longing for insight, direct awareness. Who does not? But after a while we stop asking this, it does not matter. So long as understanding grows. K: The only unexpected revelation came when I mentioned in passing that > I was still a social drinker. No shock, just surprise, and no > admonishments to mend my wicked ways. Even so, I do feel a little > silly. Maybe my light ale with dinner will become even lighter and > less frequent, who knows? N: No need to feel silly. You know A. Sujin's stand: just be aware, that is all. You do not have the purpose to make yourself tipsy. When you drink your ale you will feel whether it affects you in the wrong way or not. No forcing, but you have to find out for yourself. Moreover, it affects women more than men. Lodewijk has a glass of wine with his meals. K: Sorry, Nina, not to be giving details so far. Andrew has been > preparing a tape-recorder, as per your instructions, but without > much encouragement from me (too off-putting for us shy types):-) N: Oh, I am so glad. This is a way to remember later on and also it makes it easier to share. Why should you not share what you find useful? I shall be thinking of all of you. My warmest regards also to Jill, she really is an old friend. Then the old gang at the time of the late Venerable Dhammadaro is almost complete! Wish he had been alive. Nina. 35375 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:25am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 2. The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 2. The Co explains, when unwholesome thinking is accompanied by attachment, the different object (nimitta) he should pay attention to is foulness, asubha. And when there is attachment to things, such as robes, he should reflect on the impermanence of things. When thinking with aversion arises towards living beings he should develop metta, loving kindness. When thinking with aversion arises towards things he should pay attention to elements. When thinking with delusion arises the bhikkhu should depend on five dhammas. The Co. then gives further explanations. First the Co explains about foulness. When someone finds a hand or a leg of someone else beautiful he should develop the idea of the foulness of the body. To what is he attached? To hairs of the head, hairs of the body, to urine (the last mentioned of the thirtytwo parts of the body)? The Co mentions that the body has threehundred bones (see Vis. VIII, 101), bound by ninehundred sinews. What is unclean goes out by nine doors and ninetynine thousand pores, and it has a stench like a corpse. It is ugly and foul. When he develops the meditation on the thirtytwo parts of the body he will not find anything excellent in the body. In this way he can abandon lust that arises for living beings. If attachment to things such as bowl or robe arises, he should consider the fact that they have no owner and that they are not lasting, just as is stated in the explanation of Satipatthåna. N: Things such as bowl or robes are mere rupa dhammas that arise and fall away, they are impermanent and do not belong to anyone. The bhikkhu has to develop satipatthana all the time. The Co states that when he has anger towards living beings he should develop metta, as he can learn from the suttas, such as the Discourse on the Parable of the Saw (M.N. I, no 21). In that way he can abandon anger, and then metta is an object different from the object of aversion. When he has aversion towards things, when he knocks a table, a thorn, a sharp and pointed leaf, then he should consider the elements in this way: with whom are you angry? With the element of earth, of water etc.? Then he will abandon anger. N: By the development of vipassana he realizes that there are nama elements and rupa elements. What appears through touch is only hardness, temperature or motion. **** Nina. 35376 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Removal of Distracting Thoughts Hi Howard, thanks anyway. It could be the Wheel. Nina. op 12-08-2004 00:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I just realized that you were referring to Vitakka-Santhana Sutta; > Majjhima Nikaya No. 20. 35377 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 0:22pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forests & Happy Walks (was: Repulsiveness of the body meditation) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > > Always good talking with you, Sarah, and please, take your time, I'm > > in no rush to get this thread over with or anything. > .... > Thks for this last note. I won't be rushing out and am perfectly happy to > continue threads for years - it's good talking to you and I greatly > appreciated your response, especially as I'm being very direct in my > comments as I'd really like to help you get over this difficult 'hump'. Help would be appreciated. I don't know how to proceed. Ideas regarding my sitting practise and how much value it is of are especially welcomed. Furthermore, ideas about how I can practise the four foundations of mindfulness would be a help. For example, I have mindfulness of breathing, posture, and feelings - now does mindfulness of feelings include bodily feelings? I would think that contradicts the reflection on the four elements, that is, if my hand were to touch my shirt, I should contemplate on the Earth element and the fire element, rather than noting 'pleasant feeling,' or is it appropriate to note both concurrently? I'm heading back to the body in the body anyhow. I wonder though how do we know the consciousness experiencing rupa at each of the sense doors is separate from the rupa itself? Is this maybe the first insight, into materiality/mentality? (that theyre separate things?) And how can I be mindful of consciousness in general when I'm dying? How do I develop that awareness? Meditation might do it. Just might. > > Divine Messengers, Youth and Old Age Also Nina's Abhidhamma in Daily Life, > then a manuscript, had a great impact as it has on many others. Pls read > the first chapter at least: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Yah it was good stuff I just want to be methodical about how to practise. It should all conceivably start with good mindfulness of breathing. > At the time I was also following (very intensely) a practise based on pure > wrong view as I learnt to see it and much of what you say reminds me of > the dangers of wrong practice. Nori asked me about my experience before: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24544 Similar to what I feel. The instructions I've been using to practise tell you, when remembering something, to be mindful of the remembrance, or to note "remembering, remembering." Just like you, I would rather know the specific consciousness tied to that than just noting it mentally. It's like science that way. The underlying math of it all is clear and there's no guesswork or uncertainty. It's gonna be great. > > Slaves & External Entities > ==================== > Andrew, we're slaves to our thinking and the stories conjectured up. When > we have ideas of entities, Mara, devas, heavenly beings or other people, > these are our ideas only. We're enslaved only by the kilesa arising with > our thinking about our different ideas and hallucinations. In MN 135.6, "Here, student, some man or woman, abandoning the killing of living beings, abstains from killing living beings, with rod and weapon laid aside, gentle and kindly, he abides compassionate to living beings." I abstain completely from killing living beings, but you could still say I carry knife in hand, even though I carry no physical knife with me. In the same way, there are chains on my ankles whereever I go, though no physical shackles can be seen. I am not subject to myself, able to go where I like, I am subject to others, my life is under control of others. That is the definition of a slave. And every morning, if I do not take a cab, I have to walk (read: slave) 1.5 miles to a day treatment facility. > System hindering Practice > ===================== > The system or society can never hinder our practice. I know you've had > very tough experiences and on a conventional level one can find lots of > outside forces responsible for our problems. But no one can stop wisdom > arising or cause our defilements. They are conditioned and accumulated > states depending on so many different factors, especially the latent > tendencies or inclinations. The system and society does hinder our progress. You may be happy to practise mindfully in the household life or note a citta as you struggle to open your door, but that is not my path of practise. My path of practise is walking the Earth, practising what I do of the four foundations of mindfulness, in the open air. We are the Earth's children, and so do I walk and practise. That's my path, and none other. Being forced into a conditioning process, or any process for that matter, is unnatural and rigid, and does not augment my practise as it is and should be. I do see where you're coming from with practising mindfulness of this or that while in the household or day-to-day life, but this is not how Dhamma was intended, IMO. Practise like you were in Ancient India as a disciple of the Buddha, practise like you were staying in the forest for the rains retreat. Practise like one on a rock or under a tree who practises to become an arahant. (Not an arahant that practises under a tree because he is one :P) This is how I see it. Only difference is, the ground under my feet is that of suburban New York, 2004, not ancient Indian forest. Buddhism nonetheless. > > Don't be too tough on yourself, Andrew. Of course there's bound to be some > idle chatter, non Buddhist approaches to health and limits to patience in > these circumstances. And idle chatter sucks. What is it but one of the ten courses of unwholesome action that can bring one to the animal womb or hell? Huh? Nothing much more than that. The approaches to health in and of themselves I have no problems with, it's how they're being implemented (read: forced on me) that is the problem. Case in point, I went to the psychiatrist appointed for me today and told him that I very much dislike having to choke down something like nine pills every morning, even though I'm still depressed, so maybe we could work something out and try a different medication in lieu of the three anti-depressants I'm on. What does he do? Up the dosage of one of the medications. He gives no ear to my concerns and I've no say in it. He's more or less the authority over me appointed by the state. I shouldn't even stand for it, but I do anyway. Another way I feel like an untrue man. > Better not to have expectations of yourself, > otherwise it indicates more clinging to self again. I like the commentary > note to MN2 which `makes the important point that there is no fixed > determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for > attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention.' In > other words, it's not the `outer' topic of conversation, but the > mind-states that count. Are we reading from the same Majjhima Nikaya here? All I can see in that discourse are points to what is, and what is not fit for attention. Nonetheless, I grant you that mind-states count. Something I read in one of Matthew Flickstein's works comes to mind here: he said by the function of bare attention and pausing, we can see what jati (correct me if I'm using this wrongly) is motivating the action we are about to carry out: if it is moha, lobha, or dosa, we can drop the action; if it is out of metta, panna, or generosity, we can proceed with that action and carry it out. I would like to work to increase the three wholesome roots in myself and would love to know how to develop and cultivate them. > Shifting Awareness > ================ > You said your *awareness* shifts between `that of the lone renunciant and > one who is thinking within the limits of society.' Satipatthana only has > realities as objects. This is why I said before that what you are > referring to is thinking about different concepts or ideas. It's the same > for everyone. We have ideas about ourselves being this or that kind of > person, but it's only thinking. What we take for self are ever changing > mental and physical phenomena only (namas and rupas), none of them of any > special importance. Right, I will say that anatta powerfully dissolves the notion that this could be a problem for me. No further consideration needed. > > Cultivating Awareness > ================= > The important thing is to understand what the objects of awareness are and > to appeciate the value of awareness without any special selection of > objects. Otherwise there will be more clinging to oneself again, clinging > to being aware of particular objects or to having progress. Forget about > the past experiences and ask more questions about namas and rupas! Yes yes, but how to cultivate that awareness in the first place? Can labeling do it? I've read that labeling objects at the six sense doors with mental noting can get one used to being attentive at the respective sense doors, and eventually one can drop the labeling and just rest in pure mindful awareness. Another approach is being aware of the tactile sensation of the breath at the nostils, though this is more tedious to develop, it certainly can work wonders once you've got it straight. MMMmm, nonconceptual awareness. Can never have enough of that! Re: namas and rupas: When should I start studying Abhidharma? Should I jump right into the water? I WAS going to try to develop and understanding of the commentaries before anything else to know if my practise would result in fruit before carrying it out, but now I suppose a knowledge of the Abhidharma would be important, too. I need to know that I have a moral consciousness! Also, if you have any insight into the phenomenon I described re: the meditation and the man on course to heaven, and whether my ability to see that may have been due to a wholesome mind-state, that would be cool. But I guess that's just the candy of the practise. Even so are the devas overhead, numerous though they might be. They can't save me when my death comes, only I can. > `Self' eradicating notion of `Self' right? > ============================= > Wrong;-) It's right undersanding which eradicates wrong views. Just the > fact that you're raising these questions shows there is the right kind of > consideration and reflection which is more precious that any other kind of > good mental state or action, other than direct right understanding of > realities. So learn more about what the four foundations of mindfulness > really are (see Satipatthana Sutta posts in U.P.). It doesn't matter > whether you sit or stand or follow any other kind of meditation. The > important thing is the right consideration and understanding. Without > clear understanding of namas and rupas there is no chance of any > insight-knowledges arising. Better to appreciate we are beginners on the > path and not be so anxious for results -- remember, more clinging leads to > more suffering;-). I have been reading from Matthew Flickstein's "Swallowing the River Ganges: A Practise Guide to the Path of Purification" and have thus been more concerned with the stages of insight knowledge, the first being delimitation of nama and rupa (I think..) than the stages of nama and rupa, but now that you mention it, I'd certainly be eager to develop an understanding of that too before proceeding. All this is much better than just going out there with the breath, you know? Oh, and suffering. Just comes about for me when I speak regarding other people, be it idle chatter or talking with my nurse or psychiatrist. I'm much happier if I can be quiet and keep to myself. Easier not to transgress the precepts via desire, fear, folly, or ignorance that way, too. > > Craving & Renunciation > =================== > As I've discussed, the ultimate meaning of seclusion (vivekaa) refers to > seclusion from craving. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31888 > > I tracked down your earlier AN reference in the Bk of 8s (not 7s) to the > Anuruddha Sutta(bk of 8s, x, 30). In the PTS version: > > "Herein, monks, while a monk dwells in seclusion there come visitors, to > wit: monks and nuns, lay-brethren and lay sisters, rajahs and their chief > ministers, course-setters and their disciples. Then the monk, with heart > inclined towards seclusion, leaning towards seclusion, bending towards > seclusion, confines his talk to the subject of going apart.....so what is > said, is said on that account." > > We recently discussed in detail about the 8 factors in discussions with > Victor. (I can try to track down the threads if you like).These include > seclusion and renunciation. Anuruddha was `leaning towards seclusion', i.e > soon to become an arahant . Renunciation is definitely one of my stronger virtues, though again I don't really have an understanding of what it means scripturally. I think the meaning of seclusion can be a little more open-ended than you give it credit for -- just as virtue is one of the qualities monks can talk about, so is seclusion. I've got to think if my mind is truly bent towards seclusion and inclined towards it, but I still really think the sermon the Buddha gave to the peoples of Kurus was quite literal, that is, anyone could carry it out. Again, and I know we all tend to have the view of the arhats and aryans as being a little bit out of reach, but I think the instructions, just as the teachings on morality, were highly practical, needed little interpretation, and could be carried out by most anyone. Especially looking at the context of it, him having delivered it to a people not dissimilar to our modern day society. > Cutting off Craving > =============== > Again, it's by the development of wisdom with detachment. As you say, by > `seeing the true nature of reality......etc'. No self to do anything, but > even when we wish to be rid of craving, understanding can know the craving > at these times too. Ah, wisdom. Something I had with mindfulness when meditation was all going well, before mischief came into the picture. Seeing the true nature of reality. I have to wonder if this can be developed by straight up breath-meditation or if it has to be done in a procedural fashion. I may just give keeping my breath even and meditative a try at the next opportunity and seeing if the true nature of phenomenon do present themselves. Understanding is goood, but it can't root out the craving.. I think intercepting the link at feelings can, or, as per MN 9, understanding the path leading to the end of craving can, which is basically the Noble Eightfold Path. > Happy Walks > =========== > I love walking too and I'm sure exercise is important for you. Still, have > some consideration for your family and the hospital staff..... patience > and definitely no lies to those who are trying to help you. I'm sure it's > been a really tough time for your parents too;-). No lies! Hard to remember to stick to the truth! So much easier to forget and fall into false speech especially when unmindful! > Good Karma > ========== > None of us know about what kamma has been performed in the countless lives > in the past. This is one very short life, Andrew, and there is enough good > kamma to be listening and considering the dhamma. It's not a matter of > `maintaining' a vipassana meditation, but coming to terms with one's life > and the realities it's made up of, however difficult that may be. The path > takes a lot of courage, but it's clear `you' have the courage to ask the > right questions. Indeed you're fortunate to ask these questions at a young > age. Please start dialogues with as many people as possible here. These > discussions will assist us all and you'll make many understanding friends. > One day I'm hoping to make it to NY to visit DSG friends too. > ***** I have a feeling many of us have fallen from heaven, and if we conduct ourselves well in body, speech and mind, can go back on that course with little chance of falling back into the lower realms, as the Buddha describes in MN 129 as the perfection of a wise man's grade. Granted the likelihood of something happening of which there is a non-zero chance increases towards one with time, but I think even the negative karma we generated can be dispelled can allayed both with a mind of good will and via the path of purification, that is, contemplations. > *Please read: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18736 > > In the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS, Classification of the > Jhanas,1799f) there is some detail about all the terms used in the > descriptions such as `secluded','forest', `tree root', `jungle thicket' > and so on. I am familiar with some of the sutta content in that link, but still it doesn't change my opinion that the Buddha's words are to be taken as literal instructions and that gone to a forest or "secluded place" mean just that, and that I could use the city park for the repulsiveness of the body meditation once I have all the skills fashioned for my aggregates to investigate the same. > > Under `vivitta.m (`secluded') we read that forest dwelling is not for > everyone: > I think the phrase `for such a bhikkhu' is important. We have to know our > own `qualities' and what is `appropriate'. Some context here would probably help. The context here I am using is that of the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, DN 22, paragraph as follows: "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. etc peace, andrew levin 35378 From: john duncan Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is one quality when developed, brings all others to culmination? Thank you very much. I have not had time to read the sutta yet, as I am finishing up a semester in college, but if I have questions I will certainly post them. Also, I wanted to ask if there was an available translation of the Abhidhamma in English, since I do not speak Thai, Pali, or much of any other language except a little Spanish (although I would someday like to learn Thai). Any suttas or links posted on this site I move to a folder for later perusal should I ever get time, and one of these days perhaps I'll actually be able to digest them. Thank you very much for your reply With metta...Duncan nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Duncan, I looked up the sutta, it is a difficult one. I have some commentarial material I collected when doing my study of anapanasati, and also I have the Co to these suttas in Thai. Duncan, if you have questions on the text, you are welcome. Nina. op 10-08-2004 17:48 schreef john duncan op bluescatplayah@y...: > Thank you for posting this sutta, Nori. > Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13 > Ananda Sutta > To Ananda (on Mindfulness of Breathing) 35379 From: Benjamin Nugent Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:56am Subject: Re: Hello. This thirst for blood and magic doesn't have an end. Don't hang on my words for they are fragile and extremely ambiguous. Herman: ----------------------------------------- > How are you doing? Ben: Very well thank you. > I figure you're American. Never mind :-). I'm > Dutch-Australian. Which is not much of an improvement. Ben: I was a human before I became an American if that makes a difference to you. Before that, I won't say. But we've all got to have identity right? American is fine if it helps you put my nonsense to good use. > If you are new to the group, then a hearty welcome to you. If you have posted before, > then that's dementia praecox for you. Ben: Its schizophrenia any way you look at it, but thank you for the welcome. > Language is conceptual. Ben: Fire is hot...umm...ok. Are you stating a problem? I ask because some people get themselves all worked up over this statement. Calling something a concept seems to pick at the scab of some kind of deep mysterious wound. Language IS conceptual. > I accept that I will not be able to type anything meaningful to you if you do not > understand the concepts I am using. Ben: You and I are not so far apart; separated only by A-N-D. Is meaning a function of a concept or the other way around? Do I need to understand how you define a particular concept in order for it to be meaningful to me, or do you think meaning is inherent in the concept itself? By the way, if the color of the tree outside refers neither to the lush green hue nor to the location by which it is delineated nor to the name given as tree, then to what am I referring? > But I'm willing to give it a go. What do you want to type about? Ben: Whatever the river of mind determines as 'intelligent' so that we don't lose face amongst our peers. Ken: ------------------------------------------- > Are you saying that dhammas are only concepts? Ben: In a word, yes. > If so, you would be mistaken. Words and names are concepts but the words `citta' > `cetasika' `rupa' `nibbana' and, collectively, `dhammas,' are concepts that refer to > realities. Ben: Well then I must be mistaken. I had no idea! So you're saying that there is this...reality, and these words are only concepts that refer to this...umm...reality. So then why can't I just call this reality a 'self' instead of a 'dhamma?' They're just concepts after all, they don't change the reality, just the word that refers to it...right? Ultimate Reality is unchanging and permanent, but if it changes, it is unchanging in its changefulness. I think it would surely make a great self, and it would do away with a whole bunch of effort at the same time. No more hours of concentrating, no more need for reading suttas, no need to keep those nasty habitual reactions and endless daydreams at bay. I am the four ultimate realities. Thats all there is, so thats all I am. Onzin! ;-) > `I' is a concept, but there is no need to take it away from anyone. If, when we use the > concept `I' we mean a being that persists from one moment to the next, then that is a > concept that refers to another concept. If we use the concept `I' in the same way the > Buddha used it (i.e., to refer to the citta, cetasikas and rupas of the five khandhas) then > that is a concept that refers to a reality. Ben: Yes, indeed you will find it is rather impossible to take self-deception away from someone, even if you systematically deconstruct all of his beliefs, explanations, and opinions about the world and replace them with four simple truths. But alas, as they say, he has to see it for himself; Of course by 'HE' I mean the completely different and indiscriminate pronoun 'IT', and by 'SEE' I mean an unprompted or prompted technicolor eye rupa has to contact an unobstructed wholesome secondary eye consciousness along with the proper photosynthetic mental variables. NO! The Buddha did not set up a system of metaphysics for very intentional reasons, and the longer we run about setting up our systems and conceptual premises for thinking about and perceiving the world, the longer we wander about its miserable domain, with nothing to hang on to but our theories. If maintaining a view of no-view is just another view, why not see where it takes you? It can't be worse than the sputum that passes itself off as philosophy these days. > There is no self who can catch and identify dhammas. Only other dhammas can do that > and they are not self. Ben: Unless of course by self you mean the cittas, cetasikas, and rupas referred to by the Buddha as ultimate realities, then it's ok to call it self, right? Isn't that what you meant when you said, "If we use the concept `I' in the same way the Buddha used it (i.e., to refer to the citta, cetasikas and rupas of the five khandhas) then that is a concept that refers to a reality." I don't think your really sure of yourself here (no pun intended). > Yes, while the cetasika, panna (right understanding) is still too > weak, we can at least discuss the dhammas taught by the Buddha. Little by little, the > right cetasikas are conditioned to arise. One may be the loneliest number, but give me one apple and I will eat it all up! How do we reconcile the seemingly empirical experience of self with the insight the Buddha termed anatta? Lets call it "The Empirical Illusion of Substantiality." What is a mind moment? When did this idea embed itself in Buddhist doctrine? That Buddhaghosa was a crafty devil. They didn't even see it coming. Sarah: ----------------------------------------- > Some of us would say a concept can't be known because it isn't real. I > was hoping you might respond to Ken H's and Herman's posts so we could get > to know you and your ideas better. Ben: Remarkable. She cuts through falsehood with one swoop of her blade and taunts her enemy for more. I'm afraid this wordmonger is all out of ideas; some of the ones here are destined to fade and I'm not claiming the rest for I'm sure they'll be different tomorrow. > Why not introduce yourself a little -- tell us where you live and how you > see the Buddha's teachings. Hope you find something of use and value here > on DSG meanwhile;-). Ben: As you say, why not? Ben is a self-righteous youth who refers to himself in third person and refuses to take no for an answer to anything other than the true or false questions on his college exams. He currently resides in Long Island, New York, USA - though he's not so much in it as on it. He sees the Buddha's teachings as the decrepit ramblings of a loud-mouthed indian fellow designed to drive a man to the brink of utter hopelessness and despair; for only then does one come to his real teaching: that there is nothing whatsoever left to hang onto. With the utmost respect, love, and good intentions (especially to the three I quoted in this post), Ben 35380 From: Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Howard) Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensa... Hi, Eric - In a message dated 8/12/04 1:00:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericlonline@y... writes: > > >H> These matters, especially the first, I think, are major issues > >thatrequire long and hard study and discussion, and that cannot be > >quickly "put to rest". > > > > > E> What is unique to Howard alone without influence? > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Huh? > --------------------------------------- > > What is not interdependent in Howards world? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh. I didn't follow you. Answer: EVERYTHING in my world (and I suspect in all others) is dependently arisen. Nothing exists in and of itself. I don't believe in essence or own-being. I believe in sabhava only when 'sabhava' is taken to mean "characteristic," as I undersatand the meaning to be in Theravada. (In Mahayana, on the other hand, 'svabhava' means "own-being," and it implies independence and essence.) Hardness is distinguishable from warmth. They are not the same condition. But they have three things in common: impermanence (they don't last), they are unsatisfactory (in the sense of being unworthy of attachment, and even suffering-inducing if clung to), and they are without core/self/essence/own-being. ---------------------------------------------------- > You say it requires long hard study. I am just > showing a line of questioniong that cuts right > to the chase. > > > > > > >H> So, I think we should start discussing, but in a leisurely way, > >with the idea of beginning a pleasant journey. > > > > > >E: Even this requires a consensus Howard! > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, indeed. Conversation involves communication, consensus, and > concepts. So? > > Sorry, I reread Nori's post. She was stating > her view of your view, I think. I > thought you were questioning the need or idea > of consensus. Even 'nama' &'rupa' is a consensus. > We are conditioned all the way down and up is all > I was implying. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course we are. And concepts are indispensable for communication with others and within our own mindstream (for thinking). --------------------------------------------- > > PEACE > > E ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35381 From: alpha16draconis Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:39pm Subject: King Milinda -5 Aggregates-Conventional Reality From my understanding of the Abhidhamma, there are two truths-the conventional reality(sammuti)and the ultimate reality(paramattha). The conventional reality is the relative and conditioned and is devoid of any independent being or essence. Any particular existent is a mental and phenomenal construct, composed of constituents, which in turn are also devoid of any independent being or essence. I am kind of vague on whether the immediate objects of perception are purely mental constructs, produced by the 5 aggregates. The simile of the chariot in the Questions of King Milinda might illustrate this problem. To those not familiar with the story, King Milinda has been identified as the Bactrian King Menander, who ruled somewhere in the northwest part of the Indian sub-continent between 163-150 BC. The Bactrians were the descendents of the army of Alexander the Great. The Questions of King Milinda are dialogues between the king and the monk Nagasena. One day the king arrived by chariot and Nagasena asked the king if he came by foot. The king replied he came by chariot. At this point Nagasena asks the king to show him the chariot. Nagasena asks if the poles are the chariot. The king replies no. Nagasena procedes to ask if the wheels are the chariot,the yoke,the reins,the axle,ect. In each instance the king replies no, that these are not the chariot. Nagasena says he does not see the chariot. Chariot is just as sound. The King then said that it is because of the pole,because of the axle,because of the wheels,the yoke,the body,the flag staff that 'chariot' exists as a mere designation. So we see from this dialogue that the term "chariot" is used to conveniently describe a number of elements that have been brought together to constitute a horse drawn vehicle. Nagasena went on to apply the same method to the concept of the self with the same conclusion, that the self is a mere designation. Both the self and the chariot may be said to conventionally exist, even they do not exist in a ultimate sense. Both seem to be constructed,mentally or phenomenally, by the 5 aggregates. So here is my question. Suppose you a reading a fictional work, say one of the works of Jules Verne or Arthur Conan Doyle and as you are reading about a particular character, say Captain Nemo or Sherlock Holmes, you form a particular mental concept of these entities. This conceptual construct may also be a product of one or more of the 5 aggregates. I might even dream of this character to the extent that it might seem conventionally real. In this case, this mental formation does not represent anything in conventional reality. Conventionally, it is unreal. From the point of view of the Abhidhamma, what is it that distinguishes the conventionally real from the conventionally unreal? They both seem to be the product of one or more of the 5 aggregates, but the fictional characters are purely a mental construct, whereas the chariot and the self seem to be a relative mental phenomenal construct or abstraction of an some underlying reality. Do objects and things which conventionally exist possess all 5 of the aggregates, whereas fictional constructs use only four or less? Stephen 35382 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:06pm Subject: Re: How can I be good --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Andrew L, > Thank you for your sincere letter. I shall only touch on a few points. I do > not see that you were reading the posts in a mischievous manner. Alright, I do think it's evil the way I do it, perhaps because I'm abiding in idleness, an evil the Buddha described in the layperson's code of conduct. > > proceeding. ... > I'd like to know if slipping back and making > > strides forward is normal, if so that'd be somewhat comforting. > N: Ups and downs, normal for everybody here. How can it be otherwise. Alright, I've got to start anew and head forward at some point. Re: vipassana I have read more of what vipassana is at [ http://www.dhammadana.org/en/vipassan.php ] and now have a better understanding, I had earlier meant insight meditation by the term, specifically as outlined in Bhante Gunaratana's "Mindfulness In Plain English" meditation manual. > A: This post, I can tell, is an evil > > action. > N: Sorry, I do not see this. > It is so easy to misunderstand what vipassana is. I think you mean something > else by it than I do. I had meant I had an atmosphere of vipassana meditation going, and a large portion of my day was devoted to contemplation. Now I have none of that and wonder if I'll be able to recreate it. > A: .. and my former > > mindfulness (it was weak mindfulness but it was there) is gone (this > > may be due to the food/sleep/drug treatment of the psychiatric > > system) and so is my strong vipassana. > N: As I see it, if we believe our vipassana is strong, there may not be true > vipassana: understanding of whatever reality appears now. How can it be > strong when it is merely developing during countless lives? I had meant my strong vipassana meditation, which, as Bhante G. describes, is a process of fine-tuning your sensory apparatus and how you relate to it- not using it to create mind-movies but merely seeing the three dharma seals in it. This seems more natural but we have all learned to do otherwise, and so do other people in society, thus it's quite easy to fall back into. I could start practising again soon whenever my awareness of the six sense doors expands as I have once experienced. > A: For example, there are some people out there > > who never stopped practising vipassana, and practise while walking > > all the time. > N: Then they would be arahats. Why do you think so? Couldn't one get up from the meditation cushion and carry his meditation with him all the time? It's even recommended in some practise guide(s) I have read. > A: I'll put a nickel down that > > some of you have had experiences with the devas or at least > > apprehended some spiritual truths that are really apparent to anyone > > looking, but not to the ordinary person. > N: It is not that I do not believe you. In India I and others heard > chanting, and friends in Thailand had experiences. But this may sound crude > to you, I am inclined to say: so what? Does all this help to know the > present reality, like seeing now? Is understanding not far more precious > than any such experiences? Developing an understanding is exactly what I'm trying to do. I'd like to know what type of mind-state I was in that allowed me to experience that, and what it means for the type of meditation I usually do, whether it is conducive to a favorable rebirth, or generates a wholesome state of mind, or if it's good to practise with. > A: (I would like to start Abhidharma but maybe it's too > > soon). > N: Never too soon, but do ask questions, otherwise you may be confused by > the terms. > A:Then I would feel comfortable proceeding, knowing what I was > > doing, and being assured that I would go through the insight > > knowledges either practising on the cushion or through daily life. > N: it has to be daily life, otherwise it is not vipassana. We have to know > our own accumulated tendencies. Yes, daily life, but the sitting cushion is where we practise to attune ourselves to the mode of awareness and as Bhante G says learn to work on how we utilize the facilities of our sensory apparatus properly. Sort of like fine-tuning. > A. at the end of the day I'm a sick > > materialistic non-observant Jewish kid living in his parents' house. > N: Do your parents live according to the Talmud? You could learn good sila > from them. Do not throw away your tradition and all you got from your > parents. Later on you will be grateful to them. No, they do not live according to the talmud. I sometimes live in morality myself and feel somewhat pious, but this is not the great majority or even necessarily the majority of the time. > A: I've formally taken the five precepts but I've not kept > > them well. > N: Only the sotapanna who has attained the first stage of enlightenment can > keep them perfectly. Between perfectly and reasonably there's a long way. I had wisdom in the start of my vipassana practise, and did not tell lies, but since then both my wisdom and my sila have deteriorated. And I'm at a loss to explain how. > A: So for one thing I could wait it out and hope > > the breathing meditation will come in time, which is really where > > everything has to be pinned down. It's said that access > > concentration can be acheived through reflection on the four > > elements, but I am not confident that I could identify all the > > elements in my body well enough to acheive that, so I still want the > > breath meditation on the cushion before I procede. > N: the breathing meditation is one of the most difficult ones annd if not > done properly it will lead to more clinging instead of detachment. Access > concentration: not necessary for vipassana. Momentary concentration, according to Bhante Gunaratana, a level of concentration still weaker than access concentration, is needed, he says, to observe the moment-to-moment changes in the psychophysical organism. I do not know that this is in fact true, but I would feel safer if I had some degree of concentration established before I proceed. Sort of like knowing my foundation is strong. > A: So I hope you now have an idea of where I'm coming from and where I'm > > at. Hopefully I can overcome my mischievous ways and develop a mind > > of good will, or at least some positive citta, because I feel > > unwholesome very very often. > N: This is a degree of understanding. People think: if I keep the precepts I > am very wholesome, but what about their thoughts? Through vipassana one can > discover that there are many more akusala cittas in a day than kusala > cittas. Just common for everybody. And where does this unwholesomeness lead us in the long-term? From the very little I've looked at Abhidharma (perhaps I will start looking in greater depth soon), it seems that unwholesome cittas are termed as 'immoral' consciousnesses. This does not conduce to favorable results in this life or in future lives. > A: You know how the Buddha said, "In > > this very one fathom-long body I do declare the world, the origin of > > the world, the cessation of the world, and the path of practise > > leading to the cessation of the world?" > N: Actually it means: you do not have to go far away to find the objects of > which you can develop understanding: the cittas that arise now, the rupas of > the body, any reality that appears now. That is the way to understand what > the world is. The world is another name for the five khandhas. These have to > be understood as dukkha. In this sutta it is another way of stating what the > four noble truths are, in relation to the world, the five khandhas. > Nina. Yup. And it's within our very body. Neat, eh? peace, andrew levin 35383 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi Matt, Some analysis follows: =========== M > This is Matt. ============ Perhaps. There have been instances of people posting under the guise of an assumed identity. For the time being, I will accept only that you say you are Matt, but what your Mum and Dad call you I don't know. ============= M > You have never met me so you have never experienced through any of the rupa senses who this person called Matt is. ============ Yes, this true. It stands in contrast to our members on the Gold Coast crew, who have just recently been in a position to make further observations about this thing called RobK. ============= M > And yet the word on the computer screen, which impinges as colour, ================ I guess you are saying that neither the computer screen nor the word on it are real, only the colour is real. But the colour is not separate from the seeing, is it? I wonder how the seeing came to be separated from the colour, and how the colour came to be separated into computer screen and word? And where along the line did reality turn into unreality? ================= M > conditions thinking and memory so that there is an idea of a person called Matt. ================= Just wondering, are the conditions real? Is memory real? ================ M > The thought of Matt is momentary, it arises from conditions and falls away immediately to be followed by other experiences. So for that split moment is Matt real and after that moment does Matt fall away? No, at no time is Matt real. What is real is thinking. Thinking arises and thinking falls away. It is of little importance what the thought is about because that is just a concept, which is not real. ================ You are making some quantum leaps here. Are moments real, even if they are split? Arising and falling, are they real? The appraisal "of little importance" , is that real? Have you ever had a thought which was only a thought? Or are thoughts about something? It seems to me that they are inseperable. I wonder if it was a conceptual process that separated thought from its object? ================= M > Nama and rupa realities are impinging on the sense doors right now. ================= Tell me how you arrived at namas, rupas, and sense doors. On the face of it, they look like categories. Are categories real? Are categories impinging on categories? Enough for one day :-) Kind Regards Herman 35384 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: AN I, 1-10 translation Hi Nina, Cheer up, there is no time in the ultimate sense. Problem solved :-) Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Friday, 13 August 2004 3:26 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN I, 1-10 translation Dear Connie, The sutta points to satipatthana: a man may be obsessed by a woman, but what is really there? Visible object, sound, scent, savour, touch, just one dhamma appearing at a time. In the ultimate sense there is no woman to be obsessed by. This sutta is deep in meaning. By the way, Bhante is in retreat, now it is up to us to give a translation. I have a time problem, though. Nina. op 11-08-2004 22:10 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: I just picked this one because it's first and I didn't > want to spend all day looking for a short one because I was afraid I > couldn't do one at all. 35385 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Bagels, Forests & Happy Walks (was: Repulsiveness of the body meditation) Hi Sarah, Sorry to hear you have been unwell, and I hope you are feeling better. You wrote: =========== Slaves & External Entities ==================== Andrew, we're slaves to our thinking and the stories conjectured up. When we have ideas of entities, Mara, devas, heavenly beings or other people, these are our ideas only. ================== Are you saying that the enumerations in the Abhidhamma of the planes of existence and the beings that dwell in them are treated as though they are stories? Kind Regards Herman 35386 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensations ? Hi Sarah and Nori, ... S: Yes, though of course it is actually the citta (and accompanying cetasikas) not 'one' that experiences. I cannot experience 'your' visible object or hardness for example! Please ask any more questions or add further comments. ........ Actually, isn't there just the experience? Isn't citta/cetasika just an after-the-fact conceptual reference to *THE* experience? Citta experiencing something is no less presumptious than a being experiencing something. Kind Regards Herman 35387 From: Benjamin Nugent Date: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:23pm Subject: flipping off the moon Boy, just got here and already weary of these dhammas. I do so fancy these roman characters though. They string together like beads on a rosary. All these various threads about concepts vs. reality brought up a fantastic cliche which I will now share with you. Funny how that happens. Bruce Lee once said in the movie "Enter the Dragon": "It [the teaching] is like a finger pointing towards the moon." [hits student glaring intently at his finger pointing skyward] "Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory!" Explanation and Commentary: Never stare at Bruce Lee's fingers. He's a little too sensitive. Seriously though, it takes effort to turn the head and avert the eyes from the finger to the moon, but once you do, you can do all the pointing you like, because the moon does not give a flip whether or not you point to it nor which finger you use to do so. ;-) Dry-Insight. Repeat that word to yourself and ask yourself if this is really something you want to invest your energy on. Sounds more like a bad rash than anything leading to the supramundane. There is a bug on you. With love, Ben 35388 From: connieparker Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 040 ) Thank you, Htoo. I tend to confuse vithi and vara a lot. peace, connie > Vara means 'turn' that is 'turn' like her turn, his turn, their turn, > our turn, my turn, your turn, etc etc. 35389 From: connieparker Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: translation time Dear Nina, Also satipatthana for ANII, then - which I'm barely started on... Naaha.m bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekadhammampi samanupassaami... subhanimitta.m. You told me for ANI: "As to Samanupassati: anupassati is: contemplate, see. Anu: following closely. Anupassati is used in the context of vipassana. Anupassii. This sutta refers to vipassana." and "N: citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati : this is very interesting. I made a study of cross references of this expression when doing the Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. Here it is: " Seems my long vacation is being interrupted by employment, so I will just have to make more time! I say, though... didn't you say 'just one'? ;) peace, connie > The sutta points to satipatthana: a man may be obsessed by a woman, but > what > is really there? Visible object, sound, scent, savour, touch, just one > dhamma appearing at a time. In the ultimate sense there is no woman to be > obsessed by. This sutta is deep in meaning. 35390 From: mattroke Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > M> There are countless millions of concepts created by nama & rupa > realities. None are real... > > Indeed, but then how should we then take what you have > said above? > > PEACE > E It is a concept about the nature of concepts and like all concepts it is not real. MattR 35391 From: matt roke Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi Herman, >H: I wonder how the seeing came to be separated from the colour, and how >the colour came to be separated into computer screen and word? And where >along the line did reality turn into unreality? When someone narrates a story, when do the words become the story? They never do. Words are always words and they have their own meaning. When strung together in different ways they create different stories. So, where along the line did reality turn into unreality? At no time. Realities are always realities and they have their own unique characteristic that wisdom can know. And when wisdom dose not arise then there is concept which is not real but is taken to be real. Just this one for now, must go. MattR 35392 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:11am Subject: on dhammanupassana by Nyanaponika Dear Group, I find these quotes on dhammanupassana from Ven Nyanaponika in "The Heart of Buddhist Meditation" profound: "...the contents of thought, will gradually assume the thought-forms of the Dhamma, in the sense of the Buddha's teaching of actuality and liberation..." The thought-forms of the Dhamma presumably consist of the five hindrances, the five aggregates of clinging, the six internal and external sense-bases and the fetters arising dependent on both, the seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble truths. and: "They should be absorbed as much as possible into the thought-patterns of daily life, and should replace those concepts which cannot stand the scrutiny of Right Understanding, and are too closely associated with notions and purposes alien to the Way of Mindfulness." (page 73) Can you think of some examples of such concepts to be replaced? An example I've used might be with the Four Noble Truths. Instead of thinking "I'm such a bad person" I thought "This is dukkha" I suspect that this teaching by Nyanaponika is very profound, calling for nothing less than becoming a living embodiment of the Dhamma. Any thoughts? Thanks / Antony. 35393 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Sorry for butting in here Eric and Matt, but Matt, I like your answer to Eric better than your answer to me. The reason is that you have used less words to say nothing to Eric than you have used to say nothing to me. I think you are using a niche definition of real, which I am trying to extract from you, so I can then see if your definition applies to anything in the world. So far I have got this. Thinking is real, but what thinking is about is not real. Nama and rupa are real. Concepts are not real. There is nothing here I can connect with, or relate to. Do you care to clarify, add or subtract? Kind regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: mattroke [mailto:mattroke@h...] Sent: Friday, 13 August 2004 6:39 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > M> There are countless millions of concepts created by nama & rupa > realities. None are real... > > Indeed, but then how should we then take what you have > said above? > > PEACE > E It is a concept about the nature of concepts and like all concepts it is not real. MattR 35394 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi Matt, =================== Hi Herman, >H: I wonder how the seeing came to be separated from the colour, and how >the colour came to be separated into computer screen and word? And where >along the line did reality turn into unreality? When someone narrates a story, when do the words become the story? They never do. Words are always words and they have their own meaning. When strung together in different ways they create different stories. =================== H > You have just said that words never become the story, but when different words are used they become different stories. Try as I might, this means absolutely nothing to me. =================== M > So, where along the line did reality turn into unreality? At no time. Realities are always realities and they have their own unique characteristic that wisdom can know. And when wisdom dose not arise then there is concept which is not real but is taken to be real. ================ H > I assume from this that realities *have* a characteristic. Is the characteristic one thing and the reality another? And without wisdom a reality is a concept? Do you find this to be so? Kind Regards Herman 35395 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Hi Ben, Good to get a reply from you. Herman: ----------------------------------------- > How are you doing? Ben: Very well thank you. > I figure you're American. Never mind :-). I'm > Dutch-Australian. Which is not much of an improvement. Ben: I was a human before I became an American if that makes a difference to you. Before that, I won't say. But we've all got to have identity right? American is fine if it helps you put my nonsense to good use. =================================== H > I figured you were human, wasn't sure about the nationality. Thanks for the info. I suspect there's not a lot of nonsense in what you say. > Language is conceptual. Ben: Fire is hot...umm...ok. Are you stating a problem? ======================== H > No, not a problem. It seems like a long time ago, but I think you asked in your previous post if anybody could tell you what a concept was. ======================== Ben > I ask because some people get themselves all worked up over this statement. Calling something a concept seems to pick at the scab of some kind of deep mysterious wound. Language IS conceptual. > I accept that I will not be able to type anything meaningful to you if you do not > understand the concepts I am using. Ben: You and I are not so far apart; separated only by A-N-D. Is meaning a function of a concept or the other way around? ======================== H > Meaning is as at least as complex as the wiring diagram of your brain. I'd hate to give you a one-line answer to something which *IS* our existence, ie our meanings are our life. ======================= Ben > Do I need to understand how you define a particular concept in order for it to be meaningful to me, ======================== H > If you want to understand what I mean, I'd say yes. ====================== Ben > or do you think meaning is inherent in the concept itself? ====================== H > I don't know if meaning and concept are different. Ben > By the way, if the color of the tree outside refers neither to the lush green hue nor to the location by which it is delineated nor to the name given as tree, then to what am I referring? H > You tell me :-) Ben: Whatever the river of mind determines as 'intelligent' so that we don't lose face amongst our peers. H > River of mind is a nice metaphor. If loosing face is an issue, that's just where the river is at!! See you around Herman 35396 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Social psychology and Compassion --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:... Dear Nina Thanks for your answers, they really are helpful (and peaceful) to me. On my question "So there are no "social citta's" but there are the Brahma-vihara", you answered: "that is the answer …" The social dimension of the dhamma is important, as you mentioned it. The book of you we have been studying was "Buddhism in daily life", not the most difficult, I think. It was a preparation of the studyweek about Abhidhamma in Naarden (Netherlands) where the Burmese scolar-monk Ven.Nandamala teached us two times two hours a day. The topic we have been discussing most was about the relation between vipassana-meditation and the (Abhi)dhamma. That's because the locus of gravity in our centre is (as in most in the west, I think) on meditation and not on dhamma-study what is seen by many as a useless intellectual effort (They say that's in the tradition of the Thai forest monks but I'm not sure of that). I can't exactly say how but I have a strong intuition that this studyweek does help me in my meditation. BTW I forwarded your mail to Jotica. Metta Joop 35397 From: matt roke Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:02am Subject: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi Heman, >H: So far I have got this. Thinking is real, but what thinking is about is >not real. Nama and rupa are real. Concepts are not real. There is nothing >here I can connect with, or relate to. That’s the nature of concepts when realities are not known, there is an idea of a self, trying to find or be something. MattR 35398 From: matt roke Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:07am Subject: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi Herman, =================== >M: When someone narrates a story, when do the words become the story? They >never do. Words are always words and they have their own meaning. When >strung together in different ways they create different stories. >H: You have just said that words never become the story, but when different >words are used they become different stories. Try as I might, this means >absolutely nothing to me. =================== I said *create different stories*, not *become different stories*. As in people create homes, they don’t become them. As for *the words* in *when do the words become the story?*, I thought the second sentence would make it clear that this is referring to the individual words not the words collectively. I apologies for my poor command of English. =================== >M: So, where along the line did reality turn into unreality? At no time. >Realities are always realities and they have their own unique >characteristic that wisdom can know. And when wisdom dose not arise then >there is concept which is not real but is taken to be real. >H: I assume from this that realities *have* a characteristic. Is the >characteristic one thing and the reality another? And without wisdom a >reality is a concept? Do you find this to be so? ================ Dosa is a reality and its characteristic is dosa. A reality is always a reality, it is never a non-reality (concept). When there is no wisdom, there are still realities but they are not known and there is only concept with an idea of self. MattR 35399 From: Date: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phantom Limbs give insight into Vedana/Feeling & Sensation... Hi, Matt (and Herman) - In a message dated 8/13/04 4:49:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@h... writes: > > Hi Herman, > > >H: I wonder how the seeing came to be separated from the colour, and how > >the colour came to be separated into computer screen and word? And where > >along the line did reality turn into unreality? > > When someone narrates a story, when do the words become the story? They > never do. Words are always words and they have their own meaning. When > strung together in different ways they create different stories. > > So, where along the line did reality turn into unreality? At no time. > Realities are always realities and they have their own unique characteristic > > that wisdom can know. And when wisdom dose not arise then there is concept > which is not real but is taken to be real. > > Just this one for now, must go. > > MattR > =========================== I think the line between "real" and "unreal" may be too finely drawn. If we say that hardness is "real" but a tree "unreal," then what are unicorns and souls? "Very unreal"?? The word 'real' may have many alternative definitions, and more often it is given no definition at all, leaving people to depend on some sort of vague "feeling" of what 'real' means. I personally think there is not all that much value in the word. I think that distinctions other than the real/unreal dichotomy can be more useful and more clear. One such might be the distinction between mentally compounded (basically concepts) and mentally uncompounded (so called namas and rupas, and I would add some observed absences). The mental compounds/constructs, specifically concepts, seem to point beyond themselves to "things" or entities. The mentally uncompounded experiences generally do not - hardnesses, sights, odors, itches, fears, etc are not referential or denotational - they are direct experiences, not pointing beyond themselves. Also, they have no appearance of being compositions. They *are* related to other phenomena in many ways, including conditionality, with some of these relations being temporally concurrent and others not. Most particularly, the complete dependence of these "irreducible" phenomena on conditions other than themselves make them unable to stand on their own, and lack "reality" in the sense of independent existence, but they have "reality" in the sense of being direct elements of experience and not being amalgams. Getting back to the concepts: What they seem to point to are not direct elements of experience, but are merely mind-projected, which can be viewed as making them "unreal". On the other hand, most conceptual constructs are not arbitrary, but encode a network of relations holding among interrelated direct experiences, and, in that sense, there is a "reality" to concepts and their referents, though a misread reality. Instead of seeing a relational network of interdependent phenomena, we reify and see "things". But concepts are not so "unreal" that they can just be dismissed. They are our means of experiencing relations. As I wrote in another post with regard to concepts: "If our vision were only locally microscopic, and not relational, we would see the trees, but not the forest, and we would not know which way to go to leave the forest. And that's dangerous, because night is approaching, and beasts are about." The bottom line on all this is that the facts are not anywhere as simple as a "real versus unreal" dichotomy, or an "existence versus nonexistence" dichotomy. I believe there is a middle way to the way things actually are that is very subtle and is not amenable to easy slogans and terminology. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)