37000 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:19am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner22-Contact /Phassa(h) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** Phassa accompanies each of the cittas which arise in different processes: in the sense-door processes and in the mind-door processes (1). Phassa also accompanies the cittas which do not arise in a process of cittas (2), it accompanies the patisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness) the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) (3) and the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness). Although these cittas do not arise in a process, they experience an object: the same object as experienced by the last javana cittas arising before the cuti-citta of the previous life (4). Phassa which accompanies these cittas contacts that object. When there is seeing, visible object is experienced through the eyesense and at that moment there is eye-contact (cakkhu-samphassa). Phassa is eye-contact only at the moment of seeing-consciousness (5). The phassa accompanying hearing-consciousness (sota-vinnana) is ear-contact (sota-samphassa), The phassas arising with the five sense-cognitions (pancavinnana) are named after the relevant sense-base (6). ..... (1)-Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 13 (2)-Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 17 (3)-Bhavanga-cittas arise all through life, in between the processes of cittas (4)-Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 15 (5)- At the moments of citta during the eye-door process phassa is "mind-contact", mano-samphassa. (6)-The phassas accompanying all the cittas other than the five sense-cognitions are called mano-samphassa. ********** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 37001 From: Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] â?~Cetasikas' study corner21-Contact / Phassa(g) Hi, Phil and TG - In a message dated 9/28/04 5:52:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hi TG > >My question was not -- "Are things impermanent?" The question was -- "Why > >are things impermanent?" In other words....What is the cause of > impermanence? > > > > Sorry. I misunderstood. I got the feeling you were asking Sarah to prove > that cittas are > impermanent. That's what we have Dhamma for, and knowing the answer directly > (rather than in the superficial way I was referring to) will take many > lifetimes in all likelihood. > > As for why cittas are impermanent, the cause of impermanence, I wonder > if that wouldn't > fall under the unconjencturables "that would bring madness and vexation to > anyone who > conjectured about them." One of these four is "conjecture about (the > origin etc of) the world," > according to the Thanissaro Bhikhu translation. > > Sorry if I've misunderstood your question again. Certainly the above > answer is the only one I > would give. > > One thing I read recently from someone here - probably Nina - that made an > impression on me > was a recommendation to remember that the most direct cause of a citta > arising is the previous one > falling away. We can get caught up in conjecture about the working out of > kamma, but the most direct > cause is right there. Different topic. Sorry. > > Metta, > Phil > ============================== Here are some thoughts of mine on this particular "why" question: Let us accept without a "why", at least for the moment, that (1) whatever arises does so only on the basis of the coming together of requisite conditions and is maintained only on the basis of the maintaining of requisite conditions, and let us also accept that (2) up until a given point in time, t, whatever arose also subsequently ceased or was set to cease. Then, starting at that point in time, t, requisite conditions for maintaining a new dhamma, d, are such that they must, by (2), have ceased or be set to cease, and thus, by (1), d must cease as well. And hence (2) is extended beyond time t. So, my point is that given that nothing can arise or be maintained accept according to causes and conditions, then so long as it has been the case that whatever arises also ceases, such must continue to be the case! The "why" question thus reduces, it seems to me, to be a "how" question, namely "How did it ever get started that what arises ceases?" And I think that the appropriate reply to that is that inasmuch as there is no discernable beginning to the phenomenal flux, that question lacks coherence. This analysis doesn't definitively answer why, but it may fill in some explanatory gaps sufficient to give a drop more of a better "feel" about the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37002 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:01am Subject: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 10 ) by Htoo Dear Dhamma Friends, Rob M's ebook at files section. Continue-: Page 41 & 42 1. Page 41 and 42 depict with cartoon. In the cartoon, Rob M mention that The Buddha gives 'a key' to 'the manussa'. The Buddha disappears. The manussa does not know how to use the key and he tries to put it into a wall. And as he know that the key is given by The Buddha, he worships 'the key'. 'The Key'. As far as I see, there are many who worship 'the key' instead of using 'the key'. ''Have you learned suttas? Do you know nikayas? Do you know vinayas? These are The Buddha's words. These are the key? We all should worship it.'' Many do 'key worshiping', :-). Page 43 2. This figure and its explanation is very good and shows how saddha or confidence or faith should be in balance. Page 44 3. Sati is here referred as 'mindfulness' 'attentivenes'. Sati is a key word in Buddha's Path. But there is no satisfactory translated English word for it. Attentiveness may confuse with manasikara or attention. Mindfulness again is not the exact equivalent word for sati. There are many people who are mindful. But they do not have sati. Page 45 4. Metta & Khanti Here is a good explanation. While metta is to sentient beings, khanti may be to sentient beings or situation. Adosa is interpreted as metta. This is not about right, I believe. Metta is more than adosa. Khanti is more than adosa. Both metta and khanti are not cetasika. They are made up of cetasikas. 5. Tatramajjhattata Under this heading, the second sentence should come first and the first sentence should follow it. The second sentence is like opening sentence and definition of tatramajjhattata. Sabbe satta kammassaka and upekkha are more than tatramajjhattata. The second sentence is about right. It is balance. In a tank, there are two sides of wheels with chain. When the engine power is increased in one side, the tank will deviate to the other side. When the other side is increased in power then the tank will again deviate. There has to be a balance when the tank is to go in a straight line. Charioteer is a good example and this is normally shown as an example for tatramajjhattata. This cetasika is frequently confused with upekkha. Page 46 is OK. That is nothing to criticize or add or discuss. Page 47 6. The table here at least make some clarity. These 12 cetasikas are highly complicated to understand. But they are recognized together when we are in good mood while doing kusala dhamma. Page 48, 49 straight forward. Page 50 7. Here there is a pictorial demonstration on rupa. In the explanation, I think eye-sense should be 'eye-sense-base'. There are 1. cakkhu pasada ( eye-sense-base ) 2. sota pasada ( ear-sense-base ) 3. ghana pasada ( nose-sense-base ) 4. jivha pasada ( tongue-sense-base ) 5. kaya pasada ( body-sense-base ) 6. hadaya vatthu ( heart-base ) Upper 5 are also called ayatana while hadaya vatthu is not an ayatana. 7. itthatta bhava rupa 8. purisatta bhava rupa 9. jivita rupa As kammaja rupa, these 9 rupa each combine with 8 inseparable rupa and form rupa kalapa. These 9 rupa kalapas are all kammaja rupa kalapa. May these criticisms be beneficial. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37003 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:31am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 075 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 52 total cetasikas, the first three cetasikas have been discussed in the previous post. They are phassa or contact, vedana or feeling and cetana or volition. Sanna is also a universal mental factor that always arises with each citta. There are 89 cittas and all have been explained. All these 89 cittas do have sanna as their accompanying cetasika. Sanna is perception. Sanna is cognition. Sanna or perception sees or senses or knows the mark on the arammana that is taken by the king citta. Sanna advises the king citta to note that mark which he cognises. Citta is to know the arammana or object. It is not its function to cognises any mark on the arammana or the object of its attention. This is done by sanna. But as sanna and citta cannot be separated, it may be right to say that citta cognises. These terms especially terms of mind and psyche are a bit complicated and sometimes there seems no clear line of demarcation between some words. Some say sanna is memory. This is not quite right. But memories are built up by constellation of these sanna. The constellation is just illusion. When there is mental darkness or avijja or moha, the illusion of constellation of sanna make a picture of real. But this is not a reality. The reality is sanna. And the citta. Sanna on the other hand may be a conventional word for Pali speakers. But sanna as a cetasika does have its own characteristic. It is to mark, to cognize, to find newness, to find alienity, to find foreigness. Sanna is impermanent. It is anicca. It arises and falls away. It just cognises or mark. There is no permanent sanna. If someone believes that there is a permanent sanna, then he is not the wise and he does not know anicca, dukkha, and anatta. Here a sanna arises. But it never arises on its own. It always accompanies citta which is the leader. The citta is aware of the object of its attention. But it does not cognise which is sanna's function. The arising sanna cognises the object. As he marks or cognizes the object he looks for what is new here at the present object or arammana. If there is a new mark, sanna cognises it and reports it to the king citta and citta is aware of the object with that mark. If there is some experienced marks, it cognises those marks and reports all to the king citta. The citta is aware of the object with those old marks. When billions and billions of sanna arise and fall away, there left an illusion. This is something like a series of electric bulbs depicted in a picture of Mickey Mouse and some words. When electricity runs along the light bulbs each light bulb is lit. Each single light bulb is a sanna. Electricity runs from the 1st bulb to the last bulb. But there left an illusion of light depicting as a mouse and words. This illusion is what we know as memories. Sanna is not memory while memories are made up of sanna and other mental components. When this distinction is not clear, sanna and panna are mixed up. Sanna arises in any citta and its function is to cognise or perceive. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37004 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:07am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 19 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The jhana practitioner has just attained the 5th rupa jhana. For the first time when the 5th rupa jhana citta arises, it immediately falls away and it is followed by bhavanga cittas. These bhavanga cittas are continuously flowing cittas which take the object of the past and they have to stop when mano dvara avajjana citta arises. This mano dvara avajjana citta take the 5th rupa jhana citta as its object and this object is then assessed by later and later javana cittas. As soon as jhana citta arises, the practitioner has been in the another domain rather than in the former domain. Domain here means he is no more in the area of 4th jhana but he is now in the 5th jhana. After scrutinization of jhana factors the practitioner realises that he has been in the 5th rupa jhana. This 5th rupa jhana has to be exercised to become much more efficient. He has to be able to take the 5th jhana at his will. He has to be able to direct his mind to the 5th rupa jhana. He has to be proficient in making his mind how long he will be in 5th rupa jhana. He has to be able to emerge from his 5th rupa jhana at the pre- decided time. He has to be proficient in examining the jhana factors in his 5th rupa jhana and the whole jhana. Repeated exercises make him a perfect jhana practitioner and he now knows his jhana factors very well. But through repeated examination he realises that his 5th rupa jhana is based on rupa. This may draw him down back to the 4th rupa jhana with sukha. If he regains sukha, this may invite piti and finally all 1st jhana factors will back and because of vitakka he may well be pushed into kama vitakka. Bearing in his mind the danger of rupa, he starts to dispassionate on rupa. He reattend on jhana again with dispassion on rupa and when he is well calm with that dispassion, that is when there is just ekaggata and upekkha as jhana factors there arise the 1st arupa jhana citta without any rupa nimitta. As there is nothing, the object is empty space which is boundless. This boundless space is like the space without any object. But citta and associated cetasika such as ekaggata and upekkha jhana factors can take it as object. These mental faculties all depend on this boundless space. The place where deva dwell is called devayatana. Like this the place where citta and cetasikas of 1st arupa jhana dwell is also ayatana. This ayatana is boundless space or akasa. So it is called as akasanancayatana. The citta and cetasikas that take this akasanancayatana as their object is called akasanancayatana arupa jhana citta. This is the first arupa jhana. After a while the practitioner has to practise his 1st arupa jhana to become proficient. May you be able to attain 1st arupa jhana With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37005 From: dighanakha Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:31am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Robert. R> I understand that you wish to prove that the commentaries R> composed by Buddhaghosa and also the earlier texts such as R> Milindapanha are not to be trusted In the case of the Milindapanha I did not seek to prove anything about the work as a whole. I discussed only the Amara Dialogue, in response to Sarah asking what I thought of it. Whether the work as a whole can be trusted depends on what you mean by this. On this list I notice that terms like 'trustworthy', 'authentic', 'genuine' -- and their opposites -- are often tossed about with very little precision; texts are designated by one or another of these terms without the writer making it clear just what he means by them. On the most plausible interpretation of the evidence, the Pali Milindapanha is a composite text. It consists of an older portion (parts II & III, and a small section of part I) and a later one (parts IV to VII and the legendary material in part I). The older portion can probably be trusted as an accurate account of how the Dhamma was understood by the 1st century Sarvastivadins of Kashmir. The later portion is a Southern Indian or Sinhalese appendage and can probably be trusted as an accurate account of how the Dhamma was understood in Anuradhapura in the 5th century, and perhaps for a century and a half before this. But if by 'trustworthy' you mean is it faithful to the Buddha's teaching, then I would say that this needs to be decided on a dialogue-by-dialogue basis. My overall assessment is that most of the positions defended by "Nagasena" are faithful to the Suttas, but in the Sinhalese sections they are often defended by patently dishonest arguments. Fortunately the author's eristic repertoire is fairly narrow, so an alert reader should have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. From an historian's point of view the value of the Milindapanha (or rather, of sections II & III of it) is that it provides a glimpse of an important midway stage in the development of Buddhist doctrine: the great councils have been concluded, all the non-Mahayana schools have closed their canons, but Abhidharma is still mainly a categorial affair; systematic Abhidharma, such as one finds in the Mahavihara Commentaries, is barely in its infancy. So here the Milindapanha can be trusted as an important historical source. Moving on now to Buddhaghosa. Rather than confine ourselves to him, perhaps it would be more convenient just to speak of the Mahavihara commentators (MaCs) en bloc, since the points of disagreement between Buddhaghosa, Dhammapala and Mahanama are not very substantial. Here too it is not my intention to prove that these authors "cannot be trusted." I am too much of a vibhajjavadin to resort to such a blanket judgment about authors whose writings range over such a huge field. The following is a brief summary of what I would consider worthwhile and worthless in these writers' oevre: GRAMMAR: completely reliable. I seldom study a Sutta without having its commentary at my elbow. The MaCs were excellent grammarians and I rarely have reason to doubt the way that they unravel the syntax of a complex sentence or analyse the case relations in a compound word. WORD EXPLANATIONS: of mixed reliability. Reliable when they are doing exegesis (drawing out the meaning that words and phrases would have had for the Buddha's audience); unreliable when doing eisegesis (reading what they want into a text). To ascertain which is which one needs to study the history of the development of Buddhist thought so as to know which ideas are early and which evolved later. BUDDHIST HISTORY: highly unreliable. The MaCs were not Herodotuses. The Mahavamsa, the historical portions of the Samantapasadika and the Kathavatthu Commentary should be read not as history but as sectarian legend aimed at painting their own side white and their rivals black. If one is concerned with truth rather than just finding confirmation for the things one already believes, then Buddhist history should be learned from those who have taken into account the full range of historically relevant data. Lamotte's History of Indian Buddhism is probably the best place to begin. VINAYA: mostly reliable. Occasionally Buddhaghosa appears intent on proving the correctness of the received manner of Vinaya observance of the Mahavihara, no matter how at odds this is with the Buddha's own adjudications. But such cases are exceptional; mostly his opinions are reasonable and his jurisprudence sound. SUTTA: of mixed reliability. See remark above on exegesis vs eisegesis. Besides their eisegesis, another cause of unreliability is the MaCs' humourlessness, philistinism, and literalistic treatment of the rhetorical and satirical devices the Buddha sometimes employs. ABHIDHAMMA: almost completely unreliable. The Abhidhamma of the Abhidhamma Pitaka and that of the MaCs share many of the same terms but otherwise have virtually nothing to do with each other. Canonical Abhidhamma is a work of genius; the Commentarial system, reduced to its essential features, could have been concocted by any third-rate thinker familiar with Plato and Locke, without knowing anything about Buddhism at all. HARD SCIENCES & SOCIAL THEORY: completely unreliable. The MaCs' contribution to the sciences clearly bears the stamp of its time and appears to be the product of speculation rather than observation, or else is just the reporting of received opinion and prejudice. Whether this has any serious consequences for what they have to say on the Dhamma is an interesting question. It seems to me that it does at least throw their conception of paramattha dhammas into a parlous state. Every paramattha dhamma, it is claimed, has a sabhava. And that sabhava is partly constituted by the dhamma's NAME. Not just any old name that people might care to give it, but its name in the dialect of Magadha, which is its true and absolute name. How seryously can one take a claim like this, coming as it does in the very same paragraph as a claim that Magadhan is the root language of all living beings and will be spoken by wolf-children? I need to go out now, and will continue later with the rest of your post. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 37006 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:47am Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric & Herman / Lo.....ng post Hi Eric and Herman *, > Sukin: > One person cannot make another enlightened. But if the conditions are > there, he will speak with wisdom and if his audience has the right > accumulations, wisdom can arise in him too. But if someone has never > heard the Dhamma (except for Buddhas), then this kind of wisdom can > never arise. > >Eric: You see we are in a quandary here. What about > when the Buddha was not a Buddha? -S> He is an exception. This is related to the traditional belief that only one Samma-Sambuddha can arise in one sasana. The Pacekabuddhas, though more than one can arise at the same time, for any one to even be around is extremely rare, (millions if not billions of years, I think). Anyway, one difference between the two is that the former teaches, but the latter doesn't. However, both would be enlightened to the same dhamma, meaning both would have the same Right View. So even if we disregard what the tradition says, wouldn't you at least agree that any one else who becomes enlightened, he would be teaching the same Dhamma? Also according to tradition, is the belief that anyone at all, savakas or Buddhas, all must in the past (lives) heard and considered much of the correct dhamma, `bahusutta'. This of course, goes hand in hand with the necessity of developing the parami. The Buddha when he was not the Buddha had developed the parami to "perfection". And this is the difference in `conditions' which resulted in him to not needing to hear the Teachings in the last life to become enlightened. With the accumulated self-view from countless lifetimes, it is hard enough to understand Anatta after hearing the Dhamma, but *impossible* it is to realize the same without hearing about it. More on this below. -------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: It *must* start with a conceptual description; this > happened even in the case of Sariputta. > And if a person does understand dhamma, lack of words to describe the > experience is no excuse. > > Eric:Well, I would not say *must*. Maybe for you but > maybe another sense could enlighten another. -S> For example? > ------------------------------------------- > Sukin: But only very great `insight' can glimpse the 4NT via > developed understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, > particularly a firm understanding of anatta. Do you know anyone else > who teaches anatta? > > Eric: Krishnamurti, Ramana used it along with (Self). > Jed Mckenna uses it and I am sure others. > Herman: There are many people who understand that there is no self at the > helm of all that takes place. David Hume, for one, wrote about this at > length. It is not a slight on the Buddha to suggest that others come to > similar realizations as him, independently. It would be, however, very > silly to institute a priesthood to promote the worship of and taking > refuge in David Hume. Or to take out a trade-mark on his insights. *-S> This is why I used `anatta' and not any other word such as `non- self' and so on. I don't claim to understand `anatta' very well and do admit to often using it without any clear understanding. But I do believe that anatta comes together with anicca and dukkha. I believe that only a firm understanding of conditionality will provide any basis for a correct understanding of this concept. A scientist, because he has been conditioned in a certain way, may view everything in terms of impersonal happenings. He may come to adopt a position where he will explain sentience with some scientific theory, hence believing that there is `no self' behind anything. Or someone may have a glimpse into the `uncontrollability' of some experience and begin to question all of his own experience to determine if there is a `self' or `soul' behind any of it. Some may come to observe that there is only action and reaction under specific conditions and conclude that there is no self who stands outside of these conditions. It is not difficult after a good time of being disinterested and objective with regard to one's interaction with the world, to come to a conclusion about there being only `phenomena'. But is this the understanding of anatta? What *is* that which is anatta? If there are only conditions, only impersonal phenomena, what are those conditions and phenomena? What is observed from which the conclusion about no-self been drawn? When concluding that all is not-self, is there any idea of some "thing" out there which has this property? Or if there is no individual `self' is there any idea about some other `SELF' which is the only reality? As I said above, anatta comes together with anicca and dukkha. So there are no `things' which have this property. If there is, then inevitably there will be a "self" in `here' to have the property of anatta! And this is a contradiction. Understanding anatta comes together with the understanding of conditions. Krishnamurti, Ramana and Hume may have come to the conclusion that there is no `self' in here. But what next? They have been satisfied with some explanation or the other, but are these rooted in one form of eternalist or annihilationist view? Most if not all views existed at the Buddha's time, but none of those satisfied him. His accumulated panna was enough to overcome the lobha accompanying any wrong view. Everyone else gets stuck at the kind of lobha. This is why I think sometimes that `reasoning' is not enough to draw anyone away from wrong view. I view `view' ;-), as a inclination to interpret. Because it seems to influences our thinking well before there is any clear cut formulation of our ideas. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > `Formal', according to whom? Did someone teach him this? > > Eric: He discovered it and formally taught it. Formal as in > methodical. What is with the aversion to the word > 'formal'? Do you informally eat or brush your teeth? > One day eat with a shovel and the next with a spoon? > One day brush your teeth with a tooth brush and the > next a hair brush? -S> I saw my wife doing her prayers this morning and the thought came to my mind that "perhaps if she could see through and stop this ritualistic practice, then and only then can any understanding be developed. Rituals seem to be directly opposed to the development of understanding". Of course only with sotapatimagga can any inclination to rites and rituals be eradicated. However, it is important that intellectually there is the recognition and understanding of what constitutes rites and rituals and when pointed out to, to at least acknowledge it. You seem to only see wrong in gross forms of rites and rituals, why is it? Don't you think that in the end it boils down `attitude of mind'? Did you see my description of silabbataparamasa to Htoo? In that `formal' was not the only thing I objected to. More on this below. > Sukin: And "who" does "what"?! If there is not understanding of what is > going on, is this the `cause' leading to the correct `result'? Is > this encouraging of blind faith and the following of rites and > rituals? > > Eric: Dont quite understand you here. The reference > to rites and rituals in the suttas is to the belief > that slaughtering live stock would get you to heaven > and not about samadhi bhavana in the 'formal' systematic > way of regarding sense impressions i.e. 4 foundations of > mindfulness. -S> As above I ask, why limit rites and rituals only to the more obvious and gross type of practice? > ----------------------------------------------------- > Sukin; > Yes theorizing is an annoying habit, but I don't believe in it. But > there is no control over what will arise as long as conditions for > wrong view and other akusala are still present. The concept of > `meditation' as I see it can in fact be a product of such theorizing. > > Eric: Like any other subject. -S> But extremely harmful compared. Because this is where we put all our effort into understanding what Dhamma is. And this being the only chance we have to get it right, I think we must deal with it very seriously and quickly. ----------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: Pariyatti as often expressed here, is panna, though of the very > basic level. It is the correct understanding in terms of conceptual > description, of what is happening NOW. > > Eric: But then all you 'know' is the conceptual Matrix of NOW > and not "NOW". -S> It is better this and to know it than think wrongly that one *is* directly experiencing the NOW when in fact only `shadows' and `illusions' are the object of one's awareness. It is better to have only pariyatti than be lead by wrong view to dwell in miccha patipatti. Part of pariyatti is to come to the knowledge of and realize in experience the different manifestations of wrong view and practice. ------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: To want something more is the work of `lobha' or else a > misunderstanding of the Teachings. > > Eric: So you feel there are no wholesome aspirations? -S> Chandha, determination and whatever is involved cannot be fruitful if not accompanied by panna. If there is no understanding of the present mental state, what use is aspiration? If any aspiration is accompanied by other akusala mental factors, will this lead to any good? -------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: Also not knowing that pariyatti is *not* about words but a level > of understanding, one may reason that one must leave all this behind > and directly `look', meditate. > > Eric: Above you say it is words and now you say it is not? > So which is it? -S> It is always a reference to `understanding' and not the actual words which constitute any statement. Referring to the same concepts, different people have different understandings, some right and some wrong. However we all *do* need the correct words to direct our understanding. For example, were we not told about the difference between `seeing', `visible object' and `thinking', we would still be thinking that the people, things and general situations we perceive are real in some sense. But upon hearing this, panna might see some sense in the suggestion and immediately have a glimpse of the difference between reality and concept. To some people, it does not make sense or there is no interest, so there won't be any appreciation, less any experience no matter how slight, of this distinction. And this is the difference between panna and lack of. ------------------------------------------------------------ > Sukin: But this is wrong understanding of the moment, conceptually, and > instead believing in a concept of `doing something', where a `self' > is projected into a future state. > > Eric: Yep, that is how it starts. Then maybe you find you are > not in Kansas anymore (reference to the Wizard of Oz). -S> What about the possibility of landing in Oz and not realizing that it is not real? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: One starts with self view and ends up feeding it further with any > consequent illusion of result. > > Eric: That is one possiblility. But there is much to > realize if you are honest at this point and you > see this in action and not merely think this thru. > You realize, 'holy shit, I have been deluding > myself my whole life!'. This is a big turning point > if 'felt' in ones bones or ones guts. There can be > great joy here too. Because identity view is being > dismantled and many burdens related to 'self' are > being dropped. Many fears and doubts can fall away > at this time. -S> Or one may gravitate to views accepting the concept of Buddha nature, or Tao, or Universal Mind, all of which give a sense of `self' being insignificant. But the point is, how does one determine if at any given stage, that one is upon or not the correct path? ---------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: But the same applies to any reality, even jhana cittas must > be seen with satipatthana. > > Eric: Indeed, but one must see them not from the veil > of conceptualization but thru direct perception. > One must first cultivate the jhanas and then see > this, otherwise all this is just more thought and > talk. You know, 'the commentators said...blah, blah, > blah'. -S> Not all conclusions are the result of theory and reasoning based on this. There is a dhamma now and can to some degree be known to have the characteristic of anatta and anicca. There are kusala cittas and akusala, both have these same characteristics. Though jhana has not been experienced, this is not any discredit. What is important is the development of the more important kind of panna unique to the Buddha; one does not and must not wait for any particular mental state. -------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: I think the idea that one can and must decide > to do away with theory, is a misunderstanding not only of the > significance of the relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and > pativedha, but also from *not* knowing the moment and having instead > only a wrong view of it. > > Eric: When you are ready, via death or your own Right > Intentions you will see it is the Right thing > to do. It is scary because that is all we know > but a new type of 'food' will eventually feed > the mind or spirit. You will eat kilesa for > breakfast lunch and dinner till there are none > left! -S> If you are referring to the N8FP, then Right Intention is a mistranslation if not wrong understanding on the part of the translator for sammasankappa, which is in fact vitakka cetasika and should rightly be called Right Thought. I realize that many people prefer the translation as Right Intention. It seems here that they like to identify with a sense of `doing' and `achievement', willing to accept the concept of anatta and conditionality only to a limited degree. ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: Regarding urgency at the time of death, I don't know what I will > do, maybe out of `fear' I might think about meditation. :-( But this > would be due to self-attachment and lack of confidence. > > Eric: What was the Buddha doing on the eve of his enlightenment? > What was he doing when he died? -S> Not anything that he would ask you and I to imitate in outward behavior. Even if we know for a fact that he went in and out of jhanas, do you think he means us to do the same? Why would he? If what he did is the `result' of causes and conditions, should we attempt to summon up similar states or should we study the causes? And in considering what the causes are, what do you think is more valuable, the development of jhana or satipatthana? > ------------------------------------------------- > Herman : One of the realities to be discovered is that humans are a group-animal, > and that many people can just not function without authority figures, > the leaders of the pack. Being an island unto yourself and knowing the > Dhamma for yourself is just not an attractive proposition for most. For > these people the preference is to be told what to think and what to do, > and the idea that insight is transcendental and unattainable for > themselves is very comforting. *-S> Mana can indirectly condition a need to identify with or else disown any other being or Teachings. There are many reasons for this, but I don't think it helps to generalize and refer to such ideas as "humans are a group-animal" or that "people cannot function without a leader". Dhammas arise and fall in an instant and there is no need for anyone to be labeled as `this kind of person or that'. "Being an island unto yourself" can come from realizing that indeed the world is just this arising and falling of momentary realties. There is no pushing any `self' into such a realization, hence the idea that it may be due to it `not being an attractive proposition' is unnecessary. However this does not mean that a particular Teacher and his Teachings cannot consequently be seen as the one and only correct set of teachings. The ariyans faith in the Buddha is real and strong indeed as compared to us putthujanas. On the other hand, one may rebel against the idea of submitting to any particular teacher and not realize that one is in fact coming from a position of having being influenced by numerous other teachers. Look forward to your reply. Sorry for the length of the post. Metta, Sukin. 37007 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew L and Phil, Andrew, I appreciate your kind post and especially your last q how to develop right understanding. Answering Emails also helps me to consider more. And I am inspired by Phil who answered some of your Q. Since I am off for India Oct 11 and have to finish something, I will not react to all your points, but I go into some of them, especially your last points. A: I can develop these perfections one >> at a time. op 28-09-2004 01:52 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Ph: When you read the book you'll learn that we don't choose to develop the > perfections one at at time, > they arise due to (guess what?) conditions. We have to develop all of them, > but how and when this occurs > is not so controllable, and takes - you got it- a long, long time. N: Phil said it!!! A: I'm not so keen on trying to live a normal average joe >> daily life with a little bit of mindfulness. I want to realize that >> life is practise. N: Ah, you have to lead a normal average joe daily life with a little bit of mindfulness. It cannot be otherwise. See what Phil answers and my comment, he inspires me here. > Ph: Life is practise, yes, absolutely, but "a little bit of mindfulness" is > what > abhidhamma is all about. K Sujin (through Nina) reminds us again and again > that we cannot expect a lot of mindfulness (sati). We cannot control if and > when > it arises. It arises due to conditions. In fact, another one of her > students, Allan Driver (I forget his ordained name) said "one moment of sati > in a lifetime? Wealthy man!" or words to that effect. > So it will take many lifetimes. N: Yes. The late Ven. Dhammadharo said it all with such conviction and inner strength. There should not be the slightest bit of trying to be mindful, then it is spoilt again. Then it is not sati that is so completely anatta. We have to learn that dhammas are non-self, whether we like it or not. The idea of self enters surreptiously, mind you, for all of us, but it should be realized. When there is just one moment of sati and pañña no matter how short, arising because of its own conditions, we are on the right track. We are very rich!!! It falls away, but, whatever we learn is accumulated and can condition a moment of right sati later on. So, don't worry. A: Can you elucidate on how this understanding is developed? Intellectual.., or what? Cause I am often very slow with understanding, this is a rather big obstacle in the road for me the vast majority of the time. N: We all are slow, no wonder. We are all in the same boat. Such an amount of ignorance and wrong view accumulated. We have to discuss more on nama and rupa, this is very basic. Remember, the first stage of tender insight is knowing the difference between nama and rupa. I hope others will also give input about this important subject. So, I would recommend the Elephant Footprint Simile (M.N. sutta 28), maybe Wheel no 101 is on line. Sariputta speaks about the khandhas, and about four Great Elements, rupas, inside the body and also outside. Take heat, it is in the body, but also outside: it burns up villages, towns, etc. Fire does not know anything, it just burns. It is hot. But we cling more to heat in the body. It has to be realized as only rupa. It does not know anything, it does not know, I am hot. We should thoroughly reflect on rupa, as different from nama. As Azita said: Thus, first we have to have correct theoretical understanding, and then there will be for sure conditions for the arising of sati, it arises because of its own conditions. When you read the sutta it is of no use to try and catch the elements of the body, that is not the way. It is a good sutta to discuss here. A: Eh we can take the traditional 'make merit in your youth' stand and abstain completely but perhaps you have something with trying to understand what is conditioning it and what lies underneath it, if not to reduce the underlying defilements and tendencies towards unwholesomeness, to gain some understanding in the least. N: Understanding is the key factor. My husband, Lodewijk, said something interesting. Talking about perfections, he finds the perfection of truthfulness so important. Being sincere, truthful to yourself, not seeing yourself as being wiser than you are. But, he said, what is so disturbing as to truthfulness? The latent tendencies of defilements such as ignorance, desire and wrong view. They condition the arising of akusala cittas with wrong view and therefore we are deluded time and again. We cling to sati. We want it all for ourselves and a lot of it, at once. You see that the perfections are closely connected with the development of right understanding. Leading one's ordinary, daily life, yes, with the development of the perfections. A. Sujin stresses that in helping others where we can, we think less of ourselves. It does not help to think of my sati, or, oh, when will it come. Better not think of it. Helping: it depends on the situation of each one of us. It can be by way of Email, or speaking kind words. Read Phil's posting of Wholesome Deeds. Reading that is also mental development, kusala. It gives you ideas how to develop kusala. We have my old father. We give him stimulating talk for his mind which at times is wandering. The other day we were discussing the future of Europe, very good for him as ex-parlementarian. We were just like three idealistic youngsters debating. All this is just daily life. We do not have to retire from political engagement or any engagement in the world. We have to be natural, we have to know our natural accumulations, not leading an artificial life. But in the beginning we are likely to have such ideas: separating Dhamma life and worldly life. Nina. 37008 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Universal Causality ... !!! BlankFriends: Caused by What ? Ignorance causes mental construction to arise. Mental construction causes consciousness to arise. Consciousness causes name-&-form, mind-&-matter to arise. Name-&-form cause the-6-sense-sources to arise. The-6-sense-sources cause contact to arise. Contact causes feeling to arise. Feeling causes craving to arise. Craving causes clinging to arise. Clinging causes becoming to arise. Becoming causes birth to arise. Birth causes ageing, decay, & death to arise. Ageing, decay, & death cause suffering to arise. So is the emergence of this entire mass of pain..!! There is becoming, birth, presence, decay, & ceasing of the moments of time. There is becoming, birth, presence, decay, & ceasing of the lives of the being. There is becoming, birth, presence, decay, & ceasing of the galaxies of the universe. This sweeping yet exhaustive description of causality applies to all these three extreme timescales and all those in between. Verily of Universal Generality is this Dependent Co-Arising (Paticca Samuppada)! Dig it & keep digging. Then understanding will ever expand: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-020.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-044.html The Buddha has said: Profound, Ananda, is this dependent origination, and profound does it appear. It is through not understanding, not penetrating, this subtle law that this world resembles a tangled ball of thread, a bird's nest, a thicket of grass or reed. Any person who does not understand this, does neither escape from the lower states of existence, nor from the course of pain, misery & suffering, nor from this ever-returning round of rebirth. Digha Nikaya 15 Whoever understands Dependent Origination understands the Dhamma. Whoever understands the Dhamma understands Dependent Origination. Majjhima Nikaya 28 PS: Today is Full-moon Uposatha day, Observance day, Poya day: May all benefit! More info on this Buddhist Holy Day: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 37009 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] â?~Cetasikas' study corner: cause of impermanence Hi TG and Phil, op 28-09-2004 02:37 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: My question was not -- "Are things impermanent?" The question was -- "Why > are things impermanent?" In other words....What is the cause of impermanence? N: I did not keep all posts. Excellent questions. We read in the K.S. IV, 64 (or XXXV, II, 4, §93) Kindred Sayongs on Sense, Duality: There are many intricate conditions concurring for that one short moment of seeing. So, I find it understandable that seeing cannot last. As Phil said, also the preceding citta is a condition. It is the first one in the process after the bhavanga-cittas and it adverts to visible object. There is also kamma-condition that produces seeing. There are also the cetasikas that condition seeing. Eyesense and visible object are rupas dependent on conditions: the four great Elements arise together with these rupas and uphold, support them. The more you know conditions the clearer it will become. TG said: < when hardness presents itself, phassa performs its function so that > citta can experience the object. > The Buddha taught that feeling, perception, mental formations, and > consciousness were in reality not "separable." He explained that he only separated them for purposes of analysis.> True, the five khandhas in this human plane always arise together. When there is seeing, there is also feeling, etc. Now the analysis: this is not for the sake of theory at all. It is for detachment from the idea of self. When you see the whole you cling, and how. Think of the whole body, you cling. But parts are not so attractive, they are insignificant. So it is with the khandhas, they are nama and rupa. The Buddha taught how to be aware of a single nama and rupa very precisely so that we would really penetrate its true nature of impermanence and anatta. Each one falls away. Nothing worth clinging to. Rupa is quite different from nama and we should learn their different characteristics when they present themselves. This is the only way to over come doubt as to nama and rupa Nina. 37010 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner21-Contact /Phassa(g) Dear Azita, op 28-09-2004 03:33 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > A: while reading this, the thought came to me "why on earth do I > believe all this c....? I've never experienced it, and it sounds > ludicrous!!!" > That thought was quickly followed by "bec it feels so...right" > I'm sure understanding grows so slowly but surely, that there must > come a time when there is little reason for doubt to arise. N: Very common that doubts arise until you are a sotapanna. We all have such moments. Once Ven. Dhammadharo was speaking about excruciating doubts and that impressed me. He was so convinced. But to have firm understanding we should begin with nama and rupa! I just heard on MP3, when you are hungry, is it nama or rupa? Nama, rupa cannot feel hungry. When hardness appears, it shows that there must be a nama that experiences it. It is body-consciousness, as we learn. But now we should learn that hardness and the experience are quite, quite different. Let's continue this in India. Do you know Thai? I have to make notes for Lodewijk anyway, and I can give you summaries of all the talks we have in Thai in India. Nina. 37011 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit: sam and vip in bhaavaana Hello Phil, op 28-09-2004 12:55 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Mildly surprised to read that samatha "eliminates" kusala. I'm used to > reading that it "temporarily suppresses it." Maybe I'm confusing "eliminate" > and "eradicate." N:weakens their strength is added. It is not eradicated. 37012 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner19- doorway Dear Azita, op 28-09-2004 03:08 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > A: this sentence puzzles me. The fact that the citta needs a > physical base in the nama/rupa realms is clear to me, but this dvara > is a mystery! N: Doorway is just the means through which citta can know an object. Mat explained about this. We should not think of door in a litteral sense. But a dhamma, a rupa functions as doorway. S: The >> cittas which arise in the mind-door process also have as their > vatthu the >> 'heart-base'. > > A: ...so what is/are their dvara? I guess I don't know what dvara is? N: The last citta arising before the mind-door process starts, which is the bhavangacitta. Thus, the mind-door is nama. Is there anything you find unclear? dvaara: gate or entrance. Process of cittas: viithi: a road or path way. The way they go. They proceed or occur, in Pali: pavattati. These are all words to help you to understand the processes of cittas which experioence an object through a doorway. The object reaches the citta as it were through a doorway. This is all figurative. Nina. 37013 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:23pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 076 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Phassa, vedana, cetana, sanna arise with each arising citta. There are another 3 cetasikas that always accompany each citta. They are ekaggata or one-pointedness, jivitindriya or mental life, and manasikara or attention. Ekaggata is one-pointedness. It pinpoints at a spot. It concentrates at a point. It fixes at a point. Ekaggata cetasika advises the king citta to fix at a point so that the king citta can work much more effectively. Ekaggata is a cetasika that always arise with each of 89 cittas whether it is kusala or akusala or abyakata like vipaka or kiriya citta. It has its own specific function. That function is to fix at a point. It also advises other cetasika to fix at the same point that he and the king citta fix at. Ekaggata itself is a cetasika and it is not concentration. Concentration comes from dilution. Less and less dilution means become concentrated. Normally the mind always follow sensuous things as its object. It changes its object frequently. At a time the object is here, at another moment, the object is not the same and may totally change. Cittas at different objects are like dilution. When citta takes the same object again and again for a long time, at each moment ekaggata will be at the same object. Instead of spreading away, it becomes concentrated. To said to have a concentration, there have to be many many cittas. One of 2 moha mula citta is called uddhacca citta. It is upekkha sahagatam uddhacca sampayutta citta. This citta is moha mula akusala citta that arises when beings become restless and upset. This citta when it arises successively, it is said that restless. In that uddhacca citta, there does arise ekaggata cetasika. Ekaggata is translated as concentration. Uddhacca is translated as restlessness, upsetness, spreading. These two are totally different and completely opposite. But characterwise, ekaggata is to fix at a point. Uddhacca is to spread wide and far away. There are jhananga dhammas. Akusala cittas also have jhananga dhamma. That is why some akusala work do need a good concentration. This concentration is called miccha-samadhi. Ekaggata in akusala jhananaga are miccha-samadhi. Here what is important is that there is no miccha-sati at all. Why? Sati never arises with akusala citta. But there are miccha-samadhi. Why? Ekaggata cetasika does arise with akusala citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37014 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:49pm Subject: Jhana Journey ( 20 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When in akasananca ayatana jhana, the arupa jhana citta takes the object boundless space. This space is not the space outside of this earth. But it is the space that emerges from removal of existing patibhaga nimitta. In the 5th rupa jhana, the object has to spread to cover the whole universe. After voiding of this cover, there left nothing and this space is boundless. This space is akasa nimitta pannatta. It is not a reality. It is just a pannatta. The 1st arupa jhana citta take pannatta as its object. This akasananca ayatana arupa jhana also needs to be practised. When the practitioner practises diligently through different exercises he becomes proficient in 1st arupa jhana. He can access at any time whenever he wants. He can stay in 1st arupa jhana as long as he wants. He will be able to arise from arupa jhana at the defined period. He is proficient in examining and scrutinizing jhana factors in 1st aruapa jhana. When overall weightage of 1st arupa jhana is done and jhana itself is scrytinized, the practitioner notices that akasananca ayatana arupa jhana is quite close to rupa 5th jhana. To be freed from this danger, he has to ascend a step up. Akasa that arises from patibhaga nimitta may re-fuse with patibhaga nimitta. To prevent this, he must run away from akasa. He becomes dispassionated on akasanancayatana object and he is searching for a further step. The object of 1st arupa jhana is limitless. It is boundless. As it is limitless and boundless, the citta that take it as the object can said to be limitless and boundless. The thana or place is akasanancayatana that is boundless space. The thanii or he who dwell in akasanancayatana is akasanancayatana arupa jhana citta. This citta is also boundless and limitless. There is no rupa involved in these arupa jhana citta. At a time when citta still and calm, there arise the 2nd arupa jhana citta. This new citta takes old cittas that are limitless and boundless as its object is also limitless and boundless. This is 2nd arupa jhana citta. This citta take the object of paramattha dhamma. This paramattha dhamma is citta. The citta here is akasanancayatana 1st arupa jhana citta. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37015 From: matt roke Date: Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:32am Subject: [dsg] Picking up thread with Ken and Robert (was The Buddha as physician) Hi Ken, Sorry about the misunderstandings. I hope the following is not off track. ============================ ============================ Ken> I know a Sotapanna can have desire for sense pleasures. Was I right in assuming he could have desire for mental objects, such as alobha? ============================ The Sotapanna may experience an object with lobha or dosa. He may have alobha followed by lobha. Or he may have lobha followed by dosa and the thought *I don't like lobha* but he knows that there is no self that thinks this. But I don't think he would say "I do not like lobha, therefore I shall have alobha instead." The Sotapanna knows that there is not a self with lobha or alobha. He knows that there is not a self that can stop lobha arising or make alobha arise. And he knows that the cittas which have desire for alobha are not the same cittas that condition alobha. MattR 37016 From: Egbert Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:20pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner22-Contact /Phassa(h) Hi everyone, Just a quick question or two: ==== > Phassa also accompanies the cittas which do not arise in a process of cittas (2), it accompanies the patisandhi-citta (rebirth- consciousness) the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) (3) and the > cuti-citta (dying-consciousness). Although these cittas do not arise in a process, they experience an object: the same object as experienced by the last javana cittas arising before the cuti-citta of the previous life (4). ==== In terms of citta, what on earth is rebirth, life, dying and previous life? Is there any way of knowing any of these cittas without corelating them with events in the body? Of course I am happy to be told what the knowable characteristics of these cittas are, but they appear up front to be referring to non-citta realities. This would make them after-the-fact convenient inferences without any knowable characteristics. Kind Regards Herman 37017 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi Andrew > > Please allow me to butt in again. > Ph: "When the time comes." I think that shows good understanding of the way > conditions work > Maybe I can be a condition that encourages you to read it now! ;) Well for instance, my meditation came one day and I was filled with energy. At that point I might be well enough to read the chapter on good will and start generating loving feelings for myself and then extend them to my family. > Life is > short and it's a great book. Also, I think that rather > than just concentrating on one chapter of Abhidhamma in Daily Life at a > time, in detail, you can read Perfections > easily, a chapter at a time, and it'll help the gist of abhidhamma to appear > before your mind in a way that you > can respond to. The whole package. > > And to be honest, I think engaging Nina in long e-mails when you haven't > really *got* the gist of her > teaching (well, the Buddha's teaching, through K Sujin, through Nina) it is > demanding for her, time-wise, > without really being rewarding for you. > > >I can develop tehse perfections one > > at a time. > > Ph: When you read the book you'll learn that we don't choose to develop the > perfections one at at time, > they arise due to (guess what?) conditions. We have to develop all of them,> > but how and when this occurs > is not so controllable, and takes - you got it- a long, long time. > I developed renunciation by following suggestions in Ayya Khema's "Being Nobody, Going Nowhere." There are meditations on good will and metta. I do not believe that we have to wait many lifetimes for these to accumulate by chance. If that were the case, why would we, who are interested in practising the Buddha's teachings, be any more favored with these perfections than someone who is not? Simply put, we can develop these perfections, and the Buddha has laid out a system of practise that can result in final apprehension of spiritual truths, or, arahantship, in one lifetime. The condition is that "anyone practises these four foundations of mindfulness in this way." Well, I want to know how to practise exactly right, that is why I am here, I already practise somewhat, and I sure think I fit the description of 'anyone.' So, seven years if i practise well, maybe longer if I don't. Hell maybe one week! I'm still open to hearing about how the perfections and satipatthana can relate to each other and culminate in the realization of unbinding but I think we can actively develop them, in fact I myself have done that very same thing. > Nina has said this several times, you know. I appreciate Nina's works and her contributions to us all but I do not look to her, nor the high preist at my temple, as one whose words should be given unquestioned acceptence. Sometimes I give this designation to the Buddha, and I'm criticized for even doing that. Something about 'put[ting] no head above your own' sound familiar? > I can relate to what you said > about not retaining what you read in books, > but retaining what you read in > books and retaining what a teacher like Nina says to you directly in e-mails > should be different. Please reread each of her e-mails several times. As > you > said before, we are very fortunate to have her here, teaching us directly, > but > to tell the truth it seems to me sometimes that you're not *really* > listening. > The following > bit provides an example: > > > Well I have realized that your 'Abhidharma in Daily Life' applies to > > just that, daily life. The way I sometimes practise the four > > foundations of mindfulness is to establish myself in what I can of > > them, and make *that* daily life. So it's a total practise, I just > > need to fill in the missing parts. That's where I think Abhidharma > > can help. I'm not so keen on trying to live a normal average joe > > daily life with a little bit of mindfulness. I want to realize that > > life is practise. > > Ph: Life is practise, yes, absolutely, but "a little bit of mindfulness" is > what > abhidhamma is all about. K Sujin (through Nina) reminds us again and again > that we cannot expect a lot of mindfulness (sati). We cannot control if and > when > it arises. It arises due to conditions. In fact, another one of her > students, Allan Driver (I forget his ordained name) said "one moment of sati > in a lifetime? Wealthy man!" or words to that effect. > So it will take many lifetimes. So in the next block you say that there are methods for mindfulness all day. Look, I have practised intentionally so that I have been as mindful as reasonable possible of all feelings going on in my body at any given time, and the conditions were the books there, the four requisites, and my desire to practise. I don't believe we are only restricted to a little bit of mindfulness. The Buddha prescribed knowing a pleasant feeling when one is feeling a pleasant feeling, similarly for painful and neutral feelings, he prescribed us to divide the body into the four elements and reflect on that, he prescribed a way to develop mindfulness of breathing, it is all described so that it is to be practised continually for a period of time anywhere from one week to seven years. If we don't practise very well, it may take even longer. I still like the seven year mark and hope to realize it when I have developed a reasonable understanding of what's involved in practising the four foundations (hopefully which will not take more than a few more years so I can still be in my youth for this) Certainly mindfulness and awareness can be influenced by outside causes and conditions to arise, but I have developed them in the past myself and I am betting on the fact taht I will continue to be able to do so in the future. > > Is it possible that this kind of teaching is not right for you at this > time? I was saying > that to TG in another thread. Maybe there are accumulations that make > certain teachings right > for different people at different times. There are other teachers who allow > for > maintaining sati in a more continuous way. For example, Ajahn Chah said > something like > "30 minutes without sati means 30 minutes crazy" or words to that effect. > Maybe those > teachers are more suitable for you now. I am thinking of your well-being, > and Nina's. > I think she will urge patience again and again and again, and you will > insist on a more > ambitious practise again and again and again. In any case, please read > Perfections. It's not > heavy going and will really give you a nice feeling for the gist of > abihdhamma, in my opinion. > I'm not even sure I can read these and take away a good understanding.. I'd like to wait till I'm ready and can actually put some of them into practise before I read, but maybe I'll take a look beforehand anyway. > Sorry for sticking my nose in again. Peace to you, Andrew. You're an > interesting fellow, > and even when I don't agree with your ambitious approach it encourages me to > look at > a possible lack of ambition on my part. Thanks for that. > > Metta, > Phil Thanks for your opinions, Phil -AL 37018 From: Egbert Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Edwina (a fairly safe translation of Dighanaka) :-), I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the rigorous scholarship, sound reasoning and clever humour in your posts. That I agree with you on many points is neither here nor there, but that fact goes to explain why you don't hear much from me. Kind Regards Herman > In the case of the Milindapanha I did not seek to prove anything > about the work as a whole. I discussed only the Amara Dialogue, > in response to Sarah asking what I thought of it. > > Whether the work as a whole can be trusted depends on what you > mean by this. 37019 From: Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika.nama/rupa Hi Phil, That's a good point about the desirability of whiskey has to do with pleasant bodily feeling. I hadn't thought of that, so I guess that blows my argument. On the other hand one might ask why does one like a taste that is accompanied by neutral feeling or dislike a taste that is accompanied by a neutral feeling. Ordinarily we are equanimous toward neutral feeling but there is definitely a lot of like and dislike when it comes to taste. The other question was, isn't it a little hedonistic to say that pleasant bodily feeling is always the result of virtuous (kusala) intention? I don't remember Nina's answer but we might consider the difference between proximate cause, which could be some unvirtuous (akusala) desire, and the kamma from some previous life of which this consciousness is the result. Additionally we could say the Buddha certainly didn't sanction the valueing of pleasant bodily feeling. Rupa is dukkha and feeling is dukkha. Larry 37020 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Butchers, Carpenters and Anapanasati Sutta Hi Jon and everyone, Thanks for your post. Your post has led me to consider more. This is the result. Just when you thought the thread was over and done with :-) ======== J > > It is not without reason that it is said that > As the crested, > blue-necked peacock, > when flying, > never matches > the wild goose > in speed: > Even so the householder > never keeps up with the monk, > the sage secluded, > doing jhana > in the forest. Note that it is a *sage* that is referred to here, not just any ascetic doing jhana (understanding is the key, as always), so the comparison is clear. ========== H > I am curious as to how particular designations, like sage, sotapanna etc are to be read and understood. In the SuttaNipata we have: 650: By birth a brahmin is not born, by birth a non-brahmin is not born, By actions a brahmin is born, by actions a non-brahmin is born.. 651. By actions a farmer is born, by actions a craftsman is born, By actions a merchant is born, by actions a workman is born.. 652. By actions a robber is born, by actions a soldier too, By actions an adviser is born, by actions a king too. 653. Thus the wise see action as it really is, Seeing it dependently arising become clever in the results of actions. I read this as saying that however you are designated is not yours for life, like a job in the public service. A carpenter is a carpenter because he carpents, and when the man would butcher he is not a carpenter but a butcher. A sotapanna is not so for the duration, but only while he is sotapanning. A sage is anyone who acts sagacious, and when he reverts to foolishness he is a fool. I read you as saying that once a sage always a sage, like in the public service. Can a sage act foolishly? Can a fool act wisely? I would say that by actions a sage is a sage, and by actions a fool is a fool. None of this public service, job for a lifetime, stuff :-) One who listens to and follows the Buddha's instructions is wise by virtue of those actions, and one who credits his vaporous accumulations, or the lack thereof, for their action contrary to the best advice receives the temporary status and rewards accorded to those actions. Kind Regards Herman 37021 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew Thanks for your patience with my never-ending busy-bodyiness. > Well for instance, my meditation came one day and I was filled with > energy. At that point I might be well enough to read the chapter on > good will and start generating loving feelings for myself and then > extend them to my family. Ph: Metta is very powerful, for sure. I wrote in that other post that these days I don't believe in intentional practice of Metta, but that goes against the grain of what most Buddhists believe. I have faith that your practice of loving-kindness will help a lot. BTW, the other day when typing a post, I did a funny typo. Instead of "loving-kindness" I typed "living-kindness." And I think "living kindness" is in fact the best translation of metta that I've ever heard! Metta in daily life, arising here and there in the most mundane situations. > > Nina has said this several times, you know. > > I appreciate Nina's works and her contributions to us all but I do not > look to her, nor the high preist at my temple, as one whose words > should be given unquestioned acceptence. Sometimes I give this > designation to the Buddha, and I'm criticized for even doing that. > Something about 'put[ting] no head above your own' sound familiar? Ph: I know I was very obnoxious on this point. This "unquestioned acceptance" is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. Yesterday I even googled "submission" and "Buddha" to see if anything would come up. Except for one person's post at a group like this, nothing did. It just seems to me that there is all this desire on the part of everyone to put their own spin on teachings, to find their own interpretations, to tailor their own understanding. It stands out at DSG. I don't know if it's a western thing in particular, or a male thing. (The way men never want to ask for directions when they're lost, perferring to figure it out on their own.) I think of the customs in Asia, in which people do prostrations to the Buddha. Needless to say I'm not saying we should do prostrations to Nina, intellectually. But in my opinion when we come across a teacher that we respect there should be a period - who knows how long - during which we are fairly submissive to the teaching, giving it time to soak in before we leap back with our own opinions. Stress on "fairly" here. It's all middle way. I'm sure some people would think, do think, that I am wanting to be Nina's pet by "parroting" everything she or K Sujin says. I find this "parroting" to be a very foolish word, a very wrong-view word. Part of mental development (bhavana, one of the categories of the wholesome deeds) is studying Dhamma, and obviously repeating the words of one's teacher is a part of that. I wish people would think twice before they talk of "parroting." It makes them sound as if they have no respect for Dhamma. OK, getting off topic. My point was to say that I think a period of listening respectfully without allowing the mind to leap up into one's own views, or maybe more importantly without allowing mind to leap off to compare the teaching one is listening to to other teachings, is important. Of course Ayya Khema is wonderful. I have two binders filled with those essays. But while I'm listening to one teacher, I concentrate on one teacher. I think that's the only way for the teaching to soak in. Again, as usual, just my opinion. Ph>>. In any case, please read > > Perfections. It's not > > heavy going and will really give you a nice feeling for the gist of > > abihdhamma, in my opinion. > > > A> I'm not even sure I can read these and take away a good > understanding.. I'd like to wait till I'm ready and can actually put > some of them into practise before I read, but maybe I'll take a look > beforehand anyway. This was so obnoxious of me. Obviously you have already been developing the perfection of patience or you would have told me to bugger off. I want a clean copy of some of my favourite passages from "Perfections" so I think I will after all start posting some passages. This won't be aimed at you - though I hope you'll enjoy them. As I said above, I believe repeating the words of one's teacher is a form of bhavana. Or should I say, the words of one's good Dhamma friend. Nina says she's not a teacher. Catch you later, Andrew Metta, Phil 37022 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Perfections - Introduction. Hello all I've decided to start posting brief passages from Nina's "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" available at abhidhamma.org. I find typing out passages from a favourite book to be a form of bhavana. I know we're already looking at "Cetasikas" but this book is quite different. For those of you who think this is too much posting of book passages, thank you for your patience. Needless to say, comments would be very welcome. Metta, Phil from the introduction: "If the Buddha had not attained enlightenment and taught us the truth of all realities, we would live in complete darkness, not knowing the way to develop right understanding, not knowing what is right and what is wrong. It is a blessing that the Buddha taught us the way to develop right understanding. It is a blessing that there still is opportunity to hear the Dhamma 'which Only becomes manifest at rare intervals covering immeasurable aeons.'" "The Bodhisatta was unshakable in his resolution to develop the paramis (perfections) in order to attain Buddhahood for the welfare and happiness of other beings. He always had in mind to alleviate the sufferings of beings and he was prepared to give his life for them. He was mindful of his ultimate goal, the attainment of Buddhahood, also when he encountered great difficulties and obstacles. He practised the perfections with constancy and vigour, out of compassion for us, so that we too can attain enlightenment." 37023 From: Egbert Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:38pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi RobK, The following is only half-serious, the rest is half-funny, but I'm not sure which applies where :-) ====== > I feel I have grown up on Jataka and find them all very helpful. > Even the rather disparaging comments are useful: they warn. I was a > bit romantic in my youth and would feel downhearted when (as happened > several times) a love would desert me for another. Now I feel almost free of jealously - if my current girlfriend goes with another man, > then I feel that is the way it should be. ====== Of course this ready acceptance could also be a condition for her leaving in the first place. If there is neither joy in the coming or going of a partner, there clearly is no desire for an engaging relationship to start with, which may well become obvious to her. :-) Kind Regards Herman 37024 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:01pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Herman, I owe you another post on rebirth which I will try to do over the weekend. I like your comments.I explain my thinking below. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi > ====== Robert: I feel I have grown up on Jataka and find them all very helpful. > > Even the rather disparaging comments are useful: they warn. I was > a > bit romantic in my youth and would feel downhearted when (as > happened > several times) a love would desert me for another. Now I > feel almost free of jealously - if my current girlfriend goes with > another man, > then I feel that is the way it should be. > > ====== > > Of course this ready acceptance could also be a condition for her > leaving in the first place. If there is neither joy in the coming or > going of a partner, there clearly is no desire for an engaging > relationship to start with, which may well become obvious to her. :-) > > =============== It doesn't seem to work that way so far. I always thought the more attached and devoted I was the more I would be loved back. Funnily enough it almost seemed to drive them away. But I know what you mean- my girlfriend does wish I was more romantic. That is the way of the world - attachment looks to be something healthy and beneficial. I think we learn from Dhamma that attachment is not something we need to encourage because as worldlings we have accumulated so much already. A litle bit of detachment - even/especially in affairs of the heart- is an element that cuts through many potential and real problems. RobertK 37025 From: Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:02pm Subject: cause of impermanence Hi all, My 2 cents worth, the abhidhamma answer to this question is that impermanence is a concept and concepts are unconditioned, so there is no cause of impermanence, or any other concept. However, Nyanatiloka translates vitakka as thought-conception. He doesn't go so far as to say vitakka is the creation of a concept, but concept has to come from somewhere so maybe this is it, or possibly vitakka and vicara together. This raises the question, does vitakka-vicara create the general characteristics of reality? Larry 37026 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika.nama/rupa Hello Larry, I have some queries here... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Azita, > > Long time no chat. I can't find any fault with your explanation of nama > and rupa. I was just looking at things from a slightly different > perspective, one which may or may not be helpful. Looking at experience > as it arises, red is experience and desire is experience. A: I know you've just stated that you're looking from a slightly differen perspective, and I'd like to add mine on the last sentence. 'Looking at experience as it arises, red is a concept and desire is nama, which can be experienced bec. it arises with citta .' when you say 'red is experience' what do you mean by this? Desire doesn't > really experience something else any more than red does. They are just > what they are, consciousness. The relationship of desire with object of > desire is a conceptual one; that is also an experience in addition to > red and desire. It would be unusual but the relationship could even be > reversed: redding (colouring) desire instead of desiring red. > A: I'm kinda lost here, don't know what you mean. > As for a bad taste and not liking the bad taste, I can see a difference > between the two. Take whiskey for example. If you have never tasted > whiskey and you take a little sip, you probably will think it tastes > bad, but you still might like it. Abhidhamma seems to say there is no > such thing as a bad taste; there is only flavour and secondarily liking > it or not. At this point, I'm skeptical. > > cheerio, Larry A: I see Phil has given some comment too. I'm not so sure that Abhidhamma says there is no 'bad taste'. I tend to 'believe' that there has to be good taste/bad taste, otherwise what would kusala/akusala vipakacitta in a taste sense door process have as object? Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 37027 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 0:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Sarah, Thank you for the links you sent TG, Howard and me, I have enjoyed all of them. ------------------- > note 190: "Spk: a bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for it breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop of water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 `ko.tis' of feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10 million). ----------------------- That reminded me of one of the tapes you had given me (India 23/10/01 (3)). As I remember, there was a conversation about how hard it was to see dhammas. Someone said, "When there is no right understanding, they are very, very fast," to which K Sujin replied, "When there is right understanding they are faster!" :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard & KenH, > > Whilst I'm giving links to suttas and commentary notes, you may like to > check the following with relevance to another discussion you were having > here: > 37028 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 0:34am Subject: Re: Picking up thread with Ken and Robert (was The Buddha as physician) Hi Matt, You wrote: ---------- > Sorry about the misunderstandings. I hope the following is not off track. > ---------- I think my question was off-track (very badly worded) but your answer was excellent, thank you. ------------- KH: > > I know a Sotapanna can have desire for sense pleasures. Was I right in assuming he could have desire for mental objects, such as alobha? > > === M: > The Sotapanna may experience an object with lobha or dosa. He may have alobha followed by lobha. Or he may have lobha followed by dosa and the thought *I don't like lobha* but he knows that there is no self that thinks this. But I don't think he would say "I do not like lobha, therefore I shall have alobha instead." The Sotapanna knows that there is not a self with lobha or alobha. He knows that there is not a self that can stop lobha arising or make alobha arise. And he knows that the cittas which have desire for alobha are not the same cittas that condition alobha. > ---------- As I said, an excellent answer! Thanks again. Ken H 37029 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Dighankha, --- dighanakha wrote: > It is actually one deception and then two overt lies. > The first overt lie is explicitly denoted as such by the narrator: > "so musaa abhaasi". .... S: Thank you very much for this assistance. One more question. Where does it say --in this Jataka (536)or elsewhere-- that the previous lives related by Kunala refer to other lives *as* the Bodhisatta? For example, it says 'Then the Great Being, with the knowledge of one who remembers his former births, making Punnamukha a personal witness, related a circumstance seen *in a former existence*.......' Also for other past lives told by Kunala (or in other tales within Bodhisatta tales), I'm not sure the 'characters' would appear in a list of previous lives as Bodhisatta, would they? I appreciate your helpful assistance here. Metta, Sarah ======= 37030 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:07am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner23-Contact /Phassa(i) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** When the cittas of the sense-door process have fallen away, the object is experienced through the mind-door. When the mind-door- adverting-consciousness (mano-dvåråvajjana-citta) adverts to the object through the mind-door the phassa accompanying the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta contacts that object. The mano-dvåråvajjana- citta is succeeded by the javana-cittas which experience the same object and the phassas accompanying the javana-cittas contact that object. The javana-cittas are, in the case of the non-arahats, either akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Most of the time the javana-cittas are akusala cittas; since we have accumulated many kinds of defilements akusala cittas are bound to arise. When we, for example, see a pleasant object, we are likely to be attached to it and to have pleasant feeling on account of the object. However, attachment does not arise at the moment of seeing-consciousness. Seeing-consciousness is vipåkacitta (citta which is result) and it is invariably accompanied by indifferent feeling. The phassa which accompanies the seeing-consciousness is also vipåka. When we like what we see there are javana-cittas which are lobha-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) and these may be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. The phassa which accompanies akusala citta is also akusala. The phassas which accompany different kinds of citta are different and the feelings which accompany the cittas are different as well. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 37031 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Dan, Sorry for the delay. It's never been easy for me to dash off a reply to you and even now it's a bit of a rushed post, checking BB's notes and the Sammaditthi Sutta as I write;-). --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Thank-you for the well-considered comments and post. I have a number > of questions still [and I'm also working on the kamma-vipaka issue at > the same time]. ... S: I always look forward to any of your considerations. Pls share them as you go along. ... D:> My question is: Is not the idea of "conceptual right view" a trap, > much like the notion of "conventional right effort"? ... S: I think it can be as you say. Certainly 'conventional right view' would be, if taken for right view of the 8fold path. For 'conceptual right view' , I'd need to see a context. Like in the discussions on kamma or generosity, it's not wrong to say 'giving is good' or 'we experience the results of good deeds' in a general sense like in the suttas. It depends on the understanding which has to be more and more refined. ... D: > This question arises because I see you and Jon and Rob K and Mike and > me and others being very careful to consider the "samma" in "right > effort" and make a strong case for "conventional right effort" as > really a form of wrong effort -- not just a lesser degree of Right > Effort, but qualitatively distinct and quite different from Right > Effort. .... S: Yes as usually used. (I recommend others to read posts, esp. one Dan wrote, on 'effort' in U.P.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts But of course, this doesn't mean that as understanding grows we cannot say 'pull your socks up' or 'make an effort to be nice' and so on. It always comes back to the undestanding as I said before. .... D: > My guess is that "conceptual right view" (e.g., BB in his > introduction to Samma Ditthi sutta > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm) is akin > to "conventional right effort" in that it is not simply a lesser > degree of Right View but is distinctly different from Right View in > essential quality with very little truly in common. .... S: Looking at the intro as we speak. Ok, his first 2 paragraphs are fine with the stress on right view as the forerunner of the path. However, he continues: BB: "Right view, as explained in the commentary to the Sammaditthi Sutta, has a variety of aspects, but it might best be considered as twofold: conceptual right view, which is the intellectual grasp of the principles enunciated in the Buddha's teaching, and experiential right view, which is the wisdom that arises by direct penetration of the teaching." .... S: Like you, I believe this is wrong. Looking at the commentary, right view is divided into a) mundane (lokiya) and b) supramundane (lokuttara). Mundane right view as discussed in the sutta and commentary is not conceptual but direct/actual development of satipatthana. Whenever we read about knowledge of kamma or the wholesome and unwholesome, for example, or knowledge in conformity with the 4 Noble Truths under mundane right view, this is direct knowledge gained by insight and the development of the vipassana nanas. As the commentary stresses and we know, supramundane right view is 'understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits'. Both kinds of right view are experiential, not conceptual, but the one who has reached the stage of sotapanna has the 'perfect confidence in the Dhamma' etc. It's interesting in the commentary, it specifically mentions two kinds of worldlings 'one outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation' and this may be what you're referring to with your comments, Dan. "Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self. One within the Dispensation is of right view on account of both." S: Pausing here, I think there can be 'conceptual right view' about kamma which is a pre-cursor for mundane right view above and not necessarily the first kind (outside the Dispensation) which is clearly along the lines of what you said about right conventional effort. However, 'conceptual right view' should not be taken for mundane right view as described in the sutta or for the development of satipatthana. A helpful condition *if* it's right, that's all. Again, if we have the idea that just studying or memorising details in itself will lead to mundane right view, (as opposed to understanding present realities), there may well be silabbataparamasa creeping in again. .... BB: "Conceptual right view, also called the right view in conformity with the truths (saccanulomika-sammaditthi), is a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma arrived at by study of the Buddha's teachings and deep examination of their meaning. Such understanding, though conceptual rather than experiential, is not dry and sterile. When rooted in faith in the Triple Gem and driven by a keen aspiration to realize the truth embedded in the formulated principles of the Dhamma, it serves as a critical phase in the development of wisdom (panna), for it provides the germ out of which experiential right view gradually evolves." .... S: According to the Nyantiloka dict, saccanulomika-nana is the same as anuloma-nana (adaptation or conformity knowledge), the last of the 9 insight knowledges or vipassana nanas and definitely *not* conceptual. So it doesn't make sense to me either, but maybe I've missed something. .... D: >They may *sound* > like they are the same thing when people talk about them, but with > Right View the talk is a description of the piercing, direct view of > reality that is Right View; whereas with "conceptual right view", the > talk is a piecing together of a theory by logic and rationation. ... S: Agreed. Of course, Right View has to develop, but even in the very beginning it has to be understanding of a present dhamma, however slight or brief, not just thinking about it. .... D:> There are certainly different kinds and degrees of pañña, including a > conceptual understanding of Dhamma doctrines. But can > conceptualizations -- *any* conceptualizations -- really be > called "right view"? My working hypothesis is that conceptualizations > are simply ditthi, which is to be distinguished from Samma Ditthi, > not only in degree but also in kind. ... S: Not necessarily. As I said, the development of samatha has concept as object. It has to be accompanied by samma ditthi, but not samma ditthi of the 8fold or 5fold path. It's still 'right'. Ditthi usually refers to 'wrong' view. Wise conceptual reflection about kamma now is not satipatthana but if it's 'right' there has to be 'right view' there. ... > > S: Now I don't think I've used `conceptual right view' as a phrase, > > I don't know that you have either. I was just rudely bringing the > discussion back to MY question! ... S: ;-) that's what I thought as I was carefully trying to keep out of trouble. ... S:>We can also use exact the right > phraseology but > > with wrong view....so it just depends on the meanings intended, I > think. ... D:> You bet. But doesn't "conceptual right view" really sound like an > oxymoron? Isn't Sammaditthi really about clear viewing of reality > rather than "correct" conceptualization of reality? ... S: I don't have this same problem with it. I agree the former is taken for the latter and that's wrong, but.... ... S:> > p.s Where did you get your U Kyaw Khine transl of Dhs from and how > is it? D: <...> >There are 2000 > copies in print. I don't recall the name of the man who sent me the > book, but Rob K has one as well, so maybe he can help. ... S: I'd be grateful for any help. I've been troubled by my PTS one for close on 30 years, so I think an upgrade is very over-due. .... Metta, Sarah ====== 37032 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner22-Contact /Phassa(h) Hi Herman, You asked, ------------- > In terms of citta, what on earth is rebirth, life, dying and previous life? > ---------------- It's strange that you should use the expression, "what on earth." It suggests there is something incongruous about citta in terms of rebirth, life and dying. Existence can only ever be the present moment of citta. Or do you know of some other, ultimately real, form of birth, life and dying? ---------------- H: > Is there any way of knowing any of these cittas without correlating them with events in the body? ----------------- Yes, it's called satipatthana. ---------------- H: > Of course I am happy to be told what the knowable characteristics of these cittas are, but they appear up front to be referring to non-citta realities. This would make them after-the- fact convenient inferences without any knowable characteristics > ---------------- I think you have it the wrong way around> Non-citta realities can, at best, be referring to citta realities. At worst, they refer to no reality at all. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Just a quick question or two: > ==== > > Phassa also accompanies the cittas which do not arise in a process > of cittas (2), it accompanies the patisandhi-citta (rebirth- > consciousness) the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) (3) and the > > cuti-citta (dying-consciousness). Although these cittas do not > arise in a process, they experience an object: the same object as > experienced by the last javana cittas arising before the cuti- citta > of the previous life (4). > ==== > 37033 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:23am Subject: Just a Dog ..... Dear Group, Twelve years or more ago, I forget exactly when, a stray dog - a Great Dane/Alsatian cross-breed, a gentle giant we called Rusty - came into the lives of myself and my family. He was to stay for only one night 'until we find his owner' ... but we never did, and he never moved on. Nothing very special about him - just a dog. Changes inevitably came, children grew up, finished school, went to University, moved out of home - the dog and I lived companiably together on a small rural property. He was good natured, gentle, obedient mostly - except when hiding at bath-time, and disobeying the rule about not going on carpets by entering the study to listen whenever he heard the Sound Files of the BrahmaViharas being chanted. This morning, just before I left for work, he started fitting. I panicked a little but, looking back over today, what seems strange is that I somehow found the strength alone to lift a 46g kilogram fitting dog into the hatch-back of my small car. It took four of us to lift him out at the Veterinary Hospital. An anxious day, many tests, no definite conclusions - but, what there is doesn't bode well. The Vet says "Chris, it's something we've never seen before in our combined forty years of practice, so I'm taking the CT Scan results to the University tonight, we'll know something definite by mid-morning tomorrow - I want you to be prepared to make some decisions ..." Rusty is on a valium/phenobarb./wide spectrum antibiotic drip, in 'twilight' sleep. There is so much 'important' suffering in the world, brutal, horrific, unfair, and seemingly ever increasing - and I see so much grief and trauma everyday at the hospital. Trying to get things in perspective here. Just a dog. But I keep remembering scenes from the past. Rusty - as a pup whirling round and round on the rotary clothes hoist when his teeth caught in a towel he had been trying to pull off; Rusty - as a young dog bailed up by a scotty bantam hen (one tenth his size) with her a dozen chicks behind her outstretched wings; as an inquisitive black and tan pup making a nuisance of himself when my son was milking our house cow and having his furry face painted white with an accurate squirt from a teat; at Christmas time proud of his red santa hat and cotton wool beard with tinsel round his collar; a hullaballoo in the front paddock, Rusty running fast towards the house, couldn't see what was chasing him, thought it might be a goanna or a red- bellied black snake ... turned out to be a Chihuahua named Dolores who was visiting next door. Just a dog. I don't know what the decisions are that I will need to be "prepared to make" - not exactly. But I can guess ... My daughter, who was eleven years old when we found him under our car after a Debating contest one night at the school, took time off work to sit with us today. My son is wandering in India, somewhere south of Goa, last we heard, and he will be fiercely against what I know the Vet will be asking ... As a follower of the Teachings, I always look to them to see how I am to live. The First Precept is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from killing living beings" In the Dhammapada v.246-7, the Buddha says: "Whoever destroys living beings, speaks false words, who in the world takes that which is not given to him, or goes too with another's wife, or takes distilled, fermented drinks -- whatever man indulges thus extirpates the roots of himself even here in this very world." Somehow - though this is very clear - it is against what every compassionate person I know will be expecting me to do .... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37034 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions on meditation Dear Robert Mc, --- Robert McDaniel wrote: > Can anyone point a newbie towards some references that go over > performing Samatha and Vipassana meditation, including posture, etc. ... Welcome to DSG! As you'll have noticed I'm sure, Rob/Robert is a very popular name round here, so I've given you a Mc;-). One of our members even called his child Robert a couple of years ago if I recall correctly. Pls also look under Useful Posts at past messages under these headings: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts samatha vipassana samatha and vipassana posture meditation I'd be glad to hear any comments on any of them. I'd also be glad to hear a little more about your interest, where you live etc if you feel inclined. Metta, Sarah ======= 37035 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:15am Subject: Dear Htoo (1) Dear Htoo, I've been meaning to add some comments or questions to your posts, but I got very behind and am only catching up now. As I have a lot of yr posts in front of me, I think I'll just use a similar format to the one you use for RobM's book. So, as you always kindly stress, I'd also like to stress that I greatly appreciate all your contributions here and I find many are really helpful and packed with useful information. I've also enjoyed your discussions with Sukin, Joop, Phil, Nina and others. I'm glad you're making many friends here and that I'm no longer the only one giving feedback;-). (Btw, Joop, you may like to read Nina's book on 'Rupas' when you have time and also to post/discuss any sections which you have problems with). post no: 36461 Samatha, vipassana..... Htoo:> Now I catch the point. The same idea as before. Jhana do exist even before The Buddha. They arose because there were right conditions. Even though they did not eradicated, they did know which was good and which was bad. Which was defilement and which was wholesome thing. They did develop jhana even before arising of The Buddha. Siddhattha first approached Alara. After that approached Udaka. These two teacher at least attained all rupa jhanas. They were not taught by The Buddha. But they taught Siddhattha. Within a short period, Bodhisatta attained all 4 rupa jhana and all 4 arupa jhana. But he knew these 8 jhanas were not the way of liberation.< ... S: Yes!! .... Htoo: All jhana kusala cittas do have panna. Who say that there is just concentration? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Usually I just see concentration stressed rather than panna from the very beginning which really understands kus and akus and the object etc as I wrote about in 36457 ... 36472 Samatha, vipass .... S: vipaka - as you say, if we talk about a conventional event like a storm, the suffering is from 'worst....to virtually none'. Better to stress vipaka in daily life like hearing as you do later, I think. 36634 Dh Thread 066 H: "Even though he is now a sotapanna, he is not in phala cittas all the time". S: I understand the phala cittas are just two or three cittas which follow the magga cittas as you wrote before. In other posts you also suggest 'staying' on phala samapatti even without rupa and arupa jhana cittas.(eg 36704). Is this correct? (I also question the use of the phrase 'staying in satipatthana' even for anagamis in that post, but I think that's just language use). Also I'm not happy about 'his trying continuously in meditation' or 'he tries to cultivate the already existing his sotapatti magga nana to obtain higher nana' etc. I know it's just word usage, but it sounds too much like a self doing and I don't follow the second phrase here. 36672 dh thread 067 Exellent, esp the following clearly put in an area where there is so much mis-understanding: Htoo: >But anagami magga itself is an appana samadhi. This is why one of Dhammapada verse says that without jhana, panna cannot arise and without panna, jhana cannot arise. It is for lokuttara jhanas. It is not for loki jhanas like rupa jhana or arupa jhana. When dhammas are not well understood some people argue that without jhana, nibbana cannot be obtained and they try jhana first and then try to develop panna. This is wrong. For magga nanas to arise, rupa jhana or arupa jhana are not necessary even though if it is good the practitioner is proficient in these 8 jhanas. And these 8 jhanas may have some help in attaining higher nana like magga and phala nanas. But they are not necessary. That is their absence do not hinder arising of magga nana or phala nana. There are sukkavipassakas even in The Buddha time. Sukka means 'pure'. This means that they do not possess any rupavacara jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas. But they did attain arahatta magga nana through panna.< .... Also 36768 069 - well written. 36674 vism XiV, 101 Very good. Please add more on the Vism threads. Metta, Sarah ===== 37036 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Htoo (2) Dear Htoo, 36709 Tracing 01.. What you write doesn't make too much sense, I'm afraid. Do you agree with this defn from Nyantiloka's dict on the 2 meanings of kaya (as I understand, alw referring to realities, not concepts as you suggest I think): ***** káya (lit: accumulation): 'group', 'body', may either refer to the physical body (rúpa-káya) or to the mental body (náma-káya). In the latter case it is either a collective name for the mental groups (feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness; s. khandha), or merely for feeling, perception and a few of the mental formations (s. náma), e.g. in káya-lahutá, etc. (cf. Tab. II). Káya has this same meaning in the standard description of the 3rd absorption (jhána, q.v.) "and he feels joy in his mind or his mental constitution (káya)", and (e.g. Pug. 1-8) of the attainment of the 8 deliverances (vimokkha, q.v.); "having attained the 8 deliverances in his mind, or his person (káya)." - Káya is also the 5th sense-organ, the body-organ; s. áyatana, dhátu, indriya. ***** 36786 Reincarnation.... S: So easily an idea of person being reincarnated creeps in. I'm rather sceptical about the stories of people remembering past lives, visits to hell and so on. Who knows? 36791 Theory and Practice S: I'm glad you appreciated Sukin's post. Pls encourage him to write more. Your correspondence is useful for us all. 36796 Dh thread 069 & Explanation S: Your explanations of the terms and Pali is always v.useful. many thx. 36797 Dh Thread 070 Good. We cannot say 'only jhana cittas are samma-samadhi', even if only lokiya samadhi. Samma samadhi arises with each moment of kusala surely? Definitely with any lokiya moments of satipatthana. In a couple of places you've mentioned the same cetasikas arising with lokuttara cittas as the rupa or arupavacara jhana cittas they arise in 'the vicinity' of. Of course the nature of the cetasikas must be different I think because of the accompanying panna and object, nibbana, even if they are the same 'kinds'. Interesting topic to discuss. 36856 Dh Thread 071 and 36907 D.T.072 Excellent. I always enjoy your posts on cittas and cetasikas. 36935 RobM's theory... RobM 'practising breaking link with emotions'. To be honest, if I see a phrase like this in a book I don't read on. As you explain, it suggests an idea of self and a misunderstanding of vedana which arises with every citta. He's fortunate to have your help. Sorry, Rob. 36938 Dh Thread 073 on feelings, vedana. Excellent. There are still some I haven't read. I hope any comments or misunderstandings of mine will be taken OK. Thank you again for all your posts and assistance to all of us. Metta, Sarah ===== 37037 From: Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/29/04 12:05:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi all, > > My 2 cents worth, the abhidhamma answer to this question is that > impermanence is a concept and concepts are unconditioned, so there is no > cause of impermanence, or any other concept. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Larry, don't you find this a wee bit troublesome? Is it not a fundamental fact, is it not completely true, is it not an *actuality* that whatever arises - that is, every conditioned dhamma - ceases? Calling that fact a concept does not make it anything less than a preeminent actuality! Isn't impermanence a property, a lakkhana? Are the tilakkhanas "unreal" just because they require inference for us non-arahants to "see" them? Can they not be seen directly by wisdom? (And even if they cannot, they remain preeminent realities in my eyes - at least as real as the "dhammas" to which they apply.) Impermanence does not arise or cease. But it is a *fact*, a *truth*, an *actuality* that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent, i.e., they cease. Larry, ceasing is a reality, ceasing occurs - though it does not, itself, arise or cease, and it is characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. And, being a characteristic of phenomena, ceasing has causes - the causes are the arising of those dhammas and the very dhammas, themselves. If there were no dhammas, there would be no impermanence. If there were no arising, there would be no ceasing. Now it is true that though arising occurs, arising does not arise, nor does it cease. Likewise for ceasing. They are empty, they are ungraspable, but they are not imagined. They are realities, realities of a different sort from the so called paramattha dhammas, but realities nonetheless. Emptiness is different from unreality. Abhidhamma, grasped wrongly, will lead us into a host of problems. I believe that Nagarjuna's life work was devoted to an attempt to avoid such problems and to correct excesses along lines similar to what is being discussed here. If we let ourselves fall into a doctrinaire rut, going overboard in our view of what is "real" and what is not, we will end up making the Dhamma, itself, unreal, imagined, and worthless. The "salvation" lies in the concept of emptiness, and in avoiding the extremes of "real" and "unreal". It is valid, I believe, to distinguish real from imagined, and to distinguish mentally constructed from mentally unconstructed, but we must take care in being too quick to identify mentally unconstructed with real and mentally constructed with imagined. Moreover, we must take care in our priorities: Pedantic details of inessential characteristics of multitudes of listed dhammas should not weigh more heavily than the tilakkhana, whose realization are the entrees to enlightenment and liberation. It seems to me that we are starting to see here what can emerge from an extreme disparaging of so-called pa~n~natti and an extreme over-dependence on scholastic inessentials at the cost of devaluing essentials. Care must be taken. -------------------------------------------------------- However, Nyanatiloka> > translates vitakka as thought-conception. He doesn't go so far as to say > vitakka is the creation of a concept, but concept has to come from > somewhere so maybe this is it, or possibly vitakka and vicara together. > This raises the question, does vitakka-vicara create the general > characteristics of reality? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Now here you are expressing some interesting thinking, I think. Whether your speculation here is correct or not I don't know, but I do think it is good that there is enough questioning in your mind about this matter to cause you to want to consider further. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37038 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:58am Subject: Re: Just a Dog ..... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Twelve years or more ago, I forget exactly when, a stray dog - a > Great Dane/Alsatian cross-breed, a gentle giant we called Rusty - > came into the lives of myself and my family. Friend Christine, I am very sorry to read about the current medical problems of your dog Rusty. It is very apparent that he has become a member of your family. Personally, I think he is more than `just a dog'. I remember with fondness all of the various posts where you have mentioned him. Anyway, I wish you luck with the difficult time you are facing and the difficult decisions you may have to make. Metta, James 37039 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just a Dog ..... Dear Chris & James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I am very sorry to read about the current medical problems of your > dog Rusty. It is very apparent that he has become a member of your > family. Personally, I think he is more than `just a dog'. I > remember with fondness all of the various posts where you have > mentioned him. Anyway, I wish you luck with the difficult time you > are facing and the difficult decisions you may have to make. .... This is a very kind message, James, and I would like to express just the same sentiments if I may, Chris. I know how much Rusty must mean to you and your family and will be thinking of you over the next few days. I'm sure James speaks for everyone here too. Let us know how it goes. For Newbies, you can see a pic of Rusty in the album of 'significant others' in photos: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup Metta, Sarah ===== 37040 From: Egbert Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:42am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner22-Contact /Phassa(h) Hi Ken, Thanks for your reply. Sorry for posting the bulk of my reply above your post, I'm just finding that a little easier in this case. I probably was vague in formulating my questions, but I have not found an answer in your post. What caught my eye in the section Sarah posted, which became enough of a reason for my posting, was: "the same object as experienced by the last javana cittas arising before the cuti-citta of the previous life (4). Now you say existence can only ever be the present moment of citta. What on earth is a previous life? In terms of citta, what is a life? Can you tell me what differentiates (ie by what are they known to be different) rebirth, life-continuum, dying consciousness from other cittas? You are saying satipatthana knows, say, a dying consciousness from another consciousness. What is it that it knows? Or do I have to wait and find out for myself :-) Some more comments interspersed below. > > In terms of citta, what on earth is rebirth, life, dying and > previous life? > > ---------------- > > It's strange that you should use the expression, "what on > earth." It suggests there is something incongruous about citta in > terms of rebirth, life and dying. Existence can only ever be the > present moment of citta. Or do you know of some other, ultimately > real, form of birth, life and dying? > > ---------------- I was present at the conception and births of my children. I have buried one of my children. I cradled its lifeless form in my arms. If you are saying that only citta are real, than we have no common ground to discuss further. Because in order to discuss, we need the Internet, and it is not a citta. How then to discuss :-)? === > H: > Of course I am happy to be told what the knowable > characteristics of these cittas are, but they appear up front to be referring to non-citta realities. This would make them after-the- fact convenient inferences without any knowable characteristics > > ---------------- > > I think you have it the wrong way around. Non-citta realities can, > at best, be referring to citta realities. At worst, they refer to no reality at all. > > Ken, you may as well be telling me the world is your dream. Anyways, as a person kind enough to reply to my posts and willing to share your insights with me you have my gratitude. Kind Regards Herman > Kind regards, > Ken H > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > Just a quick question or two: > > ==== > > > Phassa also accompanies the cittas which do not arise in a > process > > of cittas (2), it accompanies the patisandhi-citta (rebirth- > > consciousness) the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) (3) and the > > > cuti-citta (dying-consciousness). Although these cittas do not > > arise in a process, they experience an object: the same object as > > experienced by the last javana cittas arising before the cuti- > citta > > of the previous life (4). > > ==== > > 37041 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:04am Subject: Re: Just a Dog ..... Dear Christine, My family too growing up took in many strays that became part of our family. A picture of one of them is in my office. It was difficult but necessary to put him down when he became a whimpering unmoving little old dog with constant pain in his eyes. There are some suttas in the Majhimma Nikaya about monks 'taking the knife', i.e. suicide, when the pain they had due to incurable illness became unbearable. If Rusty cannot 'take the knife', then you will be obliged to do it for him. In this instance, forget about what some old book tells you and follow your heart Christine! PEACE E 37042 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Hi Andrew > > Thanks for your patience with my never-ending busy-bodyiness. > > > > Well for instance, my meditation came one day and I was filled with > > energy. At that point I might be well enough to read the chapter on > > good will and start generating loving feelings for myself and then > > extend them to my family. > > Ph: Metta is very powerful, for sure. I wrote in that other post that these > days I don't believe in intentional practice of Metta, but that goes against > the grain > of what most Buddhists believe. I have faith that your practice of > loving-kindness > will help a lot. > So you admit the perfections can be developed intentionally. Thats the whole point. Now to me the question is just how much of them is needed to see the Noble Truths and realize unbinding. That's what it's all about, right? Honestly, I think I've got a decent shot at it in this very lifetime. [teachers & views] Phil, I can see where you're coming from that I'm not being receptive enough to Nina. But I am trying to put together an understanding of the Dharma and not just as I hear it from one source but putting it together from all angles. It's one dharma, and we've got to get it down pat, there's no blind subservience to anyone. I would direct your attention to the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta or Satipatthana Sutta, in which both the Buddha says, 'experiencing a pleasant feeling, he knows 'i experience a pleasant feeling'. This is all-encompassing, encompasses all feelings. I know this is possible, I have done it, I can speak from experience that one can follow these outlines or instructions and make attainments in a number of years, its really possible. The contemplation of the body in the body is similarly knowing thoroughly the postures of the body, actively reflecting on the four elements that constitute the body, and of course we don't have to wait for sati to arise to do the repulsiveness of the body meditation or the cemetary contemplations. Yes, some conditions have to be correct, but largely I think this is something that can be developed by each person to perfection and acheive results. I think that once I'm advanced enough in contemplating the breath and the body and feelings, I will then move onto mental objects and finally Dhammas, the last of which are the Noble Truths. After that, it's just practising the way leading to the end of suffering in mindfulness till the end. What else matters? > > Ph>>. In any case, please read > > > Perfections. It's not > > > heavy going and will really give you a nice feeling for the gist of > > > abihdhamma, in my opinion. > > > > > > A> I'm not even sure I can read these and take away a good > > understanding.. I'd like to wait till I'm ready and can actually put > > some of them into practise before I read, but maybe I'll take a look > > beforehand anyway. > > This was so obnoxious of me. Obviously you have already been developing the > perfection of patience or you would have told me to bugger off. Nah, I am generally not a patient person. When it comes to time anyway. This morning I was going nuts just waiting an extra 15 minutes for my cab to be here, I literally could almost not stand it, I would go insane. Sometimes, however, I have patient forbearance and tolerate harsh words without responding back. I go on and off, personally, with this virtue. Anyhow, I don't take your statement as obnoxious, I've read some of the first few chapters and they're good. I will continue to read and probably also look for other sources on the ten perfections. Thank you for your suggestion, in fact. > Catch you later, Andrew yes, be well phil 37043 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence: To Nina, Rob K Dear Larry, Howard, Nina, Robert K and all How are you? Howard has answered the main part of Larry's issue by way of Yoniso Manasikaara (exercising relevant mental orientation), which is the prerequisite for the Right View. I will add only a few things here. Larry quoted and wrote: "However, Nyanatiloka translates vitakka as thought-conception. He doesn't go so far as to say vitakka is the creation of a concept, but concept has to come from somewhere so maybe this is it, or possibly vitakka and vicara together. This raises the question, does vitakka-vicara create the general characteristics of reality?" The Pali term "Vitakka" is a very simple common term in any language, the most general meaning of which is "Thinking". With due respect for Nyanatiloka, we need not be led astray by such a big phrase as "thought-conception". Similarly, the most general meaning of the Pali term "Vicaara" is "Rethinking" in the sense of thinking again, looking again. In fact, one of the synonyms of vicaara is anupekkhanataa (thinking or looking at the object again and again.) Thinking and rethinking are mental associates (cetasikas) that can think and rethink any types of objects, be they realities (paramattha dhammaa) or unreal things (paññatti dhammaa). As such, the question as to whether vitakka and vicaara create the general characteristics of reality became meaningless. It should not have been even raised in the first place! The general characteristics of reality are to be observed and discovered. They are not manufactured by thinking or by any other mental associates or by the mind. As thinking and rethinking are mental associates, they themselves are realities (paramattha dhammaa) [if Rob M is reading this, please note how I linked paramattha and dhamma, or paññatti and dhammaa for that matter]. As such, we also need to observe and discover the three characteristics of thinking and rethinking as well. The three characteristics are what distinguish realities from non- realities. By applying Theravada observation methods such as Satipa.t.thaana to realities, we discover their three characterisitcs. By contrast, we cannot discover the three characteristics if the objects we take were unreal things (paññatti dhammaa) because the unreal things do not have the three characterisctics. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/29/04 12:05:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Larry > ============================= With metta, Howard 37045 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:23am Subject: Re: Dear Htoo (1) >Htoo: All jhana kusala cittas do have panna. Who say that there is just concentration? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Usually I just see concentration stressed rather than panna from the very beginning which really understands kus and akus and the object etc as I wrote about in 36457 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Understand. Emphasis or stress or point of interest cause confusion, sometimes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... 36472 Samatha, vipass .... S: vipaka - as you say, if we talk about a conventional event like a storm, the suffering is from `worst....to virtually none'. Better to stress vipaka in daily life like hearing as you do later, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I meant that bad things and good things come in wave forms. They have a rhythm of regular or irrugular. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 36634 Dh Thread 066 > H: "Even though he is now a sotapanna, he is not in phala cittas all the time". S: I understand the phala cittas are just two or three cittas which follow the magga cittas as you wrote before. In other posts you also suggest`staying' on phala samapatti even without rupa and arupa jhana cittas.(eg 36704). Is this correct? (I also question the use of the phrase `staying in satipatthana' even for anagamis in that post, but I think that's just language use). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is difficult to answer. But what I have read was that when sotappatti magga nana has been achieved, sotapatti phala samapatti can be done. So the answer to your question 'Is this correct?' is to be honest 'don't know' from me but I think I read it in a dhamma book which might be a commentary. I think, we have agreed or have discussed on the words or usage that is 'the language'. That is 'staying in satipatthana'. Puthujana and sikkhas stay in satipatthana to develop higher nana. Arahats all stay in satipatthana not to do anything but they just stay. The difference is that our staying is intermittent with a very wide gap. Learned people narrow the gap. Arahats do not have any gap. I will be discussing cittas of arahats late in the series. I think, the book I read said sotapam, sakadagam, and anagam can all stay in phala samapatti of their respective nana. I might find another appropriate word for 'staying in phala' and also for 'staying in satipatthana'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Also I'm not happy about `his trying continuously in meditation' or `he tries to cultivate the already existing his sotapatti magga nana to obtain higher nana' etc. I know it's just word usage, but it sounds too much like a self doing and I don't follow the second phrase here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So far I released 75 messages for Dhamma Thread. I must apologise all readers that I did not check grammar, spellings, punctuation, and to the worst 'to check sense' or 'to check whether the message makes any sense'. I did 'like this' because of short of time. I may at a time leave the internet. So I just pressed all messages. Sarah, you already know me well. My writing was very poor. I even did not know that I had to leave a space before the next sentence, after a 'coma' and how to put into quotation marks. A friend just reminded that I should have done so and so. This makes me improved. 'his trying continuously in meditation' This I meant just continuation. ''His recognition of nama and rupa especially marks on them which are anicca, dukkha, and anatta''. You will prefer this sentence instead. :-) The second sentence was my own words which derived from 'bhiyyo'. May be I put in the wrong way. It should have been ''He tries to cultivate the mind which recognises nama and rupa with their 3 marks and this cultivation finally help arising higher nana which is higher than the existing nana.'' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 36672 dh thread 067 Exellent, esp the following clearly put in an area where there is so much mis-understanding: Htoo: >But anagami magga itself is an appana samadhi. This is why one of Dhammapada verse says that without jhana, panna cannot arise and without panna, jhana cannot arise. It is for lokuttara jhanas. It is not for loki jhanas like rupa jhana or arupa jhana. When dhammas are not well understood some people argue that without jhana, nibbana cannot be obtained and they try jhana first and then try to develop panna. This is wrong. For magga nanas to arise, rupa jhana or arupa jhana are not necessary even though if it is good the practitioner is proficient in these 8 jhanas. And these 8 jhanas may have some help in attaining higher nana like magga and phala nanas. But they are not necessary. That is their absence do not hinder arising of magga nana or phala nana. There are sukkavipassakas even in The Buddha time. Sukka means 'pure'. This means that they do not possess any rupavacara jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas. But they did attain arahatta magga nana through panna.< .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. You may know that I repeated this very frequently in and around those posts. Because once a dangerously deviated man took a verse from Dhammapada and shook the groups. Actually he does not have any insight. He is so craving to jhana that he said that he had all 8 jhanas and he was fully alert even when he was sleeping. I heard that he self-ordained and following the wrong way. Self- ordain means 'dress up like a monk without formal ordination'. But once he used a word like 'wrap with a rag'. As he made a lot of confusion to people, I attacked all that might lead to confusion. Another reason why I touched this area was that there are still many people who believe that without jhana, arahatta magga cannot be attained. They argue with suttas and they said only jhanas are samma- samadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Also 36768 069 - well written. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 36674 vism XiV, 101 Very good. Please add more on the Vism threads. Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will. But I lost among the busy messages. :-) With Metta, Htoo Naing 37046 From: connieparker Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:38am Subject: Re: Just a Dog ..... Sorry you're down, Rusty. I think we all wish we could just think you better and you could keep on breaking the "No Carpet" rule to listen to brahma viharas chants and go on showing us your own understanding of them. You're a good dog and have been very giving. You mean a great deal to your family and have given them a lot of happiness. When you leave, they'll still have all those fond memories. Not to worry. They're good people and will be ok when you're not there to take care of them any more. Trust their kamma. Don't sweat the small stuff - things like the "No Carpet" rule were meant to be broken and you were right to do so. Don't worry or be embarrassed when you can't control your bodily functions. No one expects you to and they understand. It's just the way things are and no one is mad at you. It's just your turn to relax and let your people take care of you for awhile. I hope you're hearing the chants or some other dhamma in your twilight sleep and that whenever it is your time to leave, that would carry into the next go-round with lots of conditions to hear and consider more dhamma. From the stories we've all read of you, it seems you have a lot of good accumulations. Don't be too disappointed if you do end up with a human rebirth - you don't have to be vegetarian! peace, connie p.s. to Chris Whatever the decisions you have to make now turn out to be, and I'm assuming the worst, I'm sure you'll do the right thing, however hard. You know the compassionate thing isn't always the easy thing and sometimes what people would call compassion has more to do with dosa and just making it easier on themselves. If Rusty does end up human, the dogness of his honesty will be both a burden and a blessing, no doubt. Maybe being able to chew a bit on cooked pork and chicken bones will be some kind of trade-off there - not that I'd wish him to be someone who finds consolation in food!! I'm sure there's nothing new I could say about how hard it is to accept a loved one's death or illness and to watch them when you feel so helpless and have to stare that 'nothing I can do' in the face. Equanimity is so much harder than compassion. Maybe Rusty knows more about acceptance and the brahma viharas right now than we do. Best wishes to you all and whatever comfort there is in knowing you're in our thoughts. all the brahma viharas to the best of my ability, connie 37047 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Htoo (2) Sarah: Dear Htoo, 36709 Tracing 01.. What you write doesn't make too much sense, I'm afraid. Do you agree with this defn from Nyantiloka's dict on the 2 meanings of kaya (as I understand, alw referring to realities, not concepts as you suggest I think): ***** [ quote ] káya (lit: accumulation): 'group', 'body', may either refer to the physical body (rúpa-káya) or to the mental body (náma-káya). In the latter case it is either a collective name for the mental groups(feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness; s. khandha), or merely for feeling, perception and a few of the mental formations (s. náma), e.g. in káya-lahutá, etc. (cf. Tab. II). Káya has this same meaning in the standard description of the 3rd absorption (jhána, q.v.) "and he feels joy in his mind or his mental constitution (káya)", and (e.g. Pug. 1-8) of the attainment of the 8 deliverances (vimokkha, q.v.); "having attained the 8 deliverances in his mind, or his person (káya)." - Káya is also the 5th sense-organ, the body-organ; s. áyatana, dhátu, indriya. ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 36786 Reincarnation.... S: So easily an idea of person being reincarnated creeps in. I'm rather sceptical about the stories of people remembering past lives, visits to hell and so on. Who knows? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is an example to help those with uccheda ditthi or annihilistic viewer. They would say 'After death there is nothing. Before this life there is nothing. Everything depends on the physical body.' For those with sassata ditthi or eternity viewer, they are stubborn people and hard to understand real dhamma. Yes, as you said these ideas such as reincarnation may make them worse. The post was directed to miracles and their existence. And these can all be explained. The idea of the Heaven and the Hell was also directed. These people would think that 'There is only a life. That life is this current life. After that who did good will be in the heaven and who did bad will be in the hell.' This is also wrong. There were people who could tell their past lives' stories. Some could tell 5 or 6 successive lives. That is from 'human' to 'snake' to 'cat' to 'dog' to 'human'. For me I do not believe 'there is a permanent self changing from this to that. But they are linked. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 36791 Theory and Practice S: I'm glad you appreciated Sukin's post. Pls encourage him to write more. Your correspondence is useful for us all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sukin is nice and good at Dhamma. Especially essence of Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 36796 Dh thread 069 & Explanation S: Your explanations of the terms and Pali is always v.useful. many thx. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would also suggest to check on own dictionary with own eyes. I think still there may be some words that do not appear in the heading in Pali-English dictionaries. I am still learning and just a beginner in Pali. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 36797 Dh Thread 070 Good. We cannot say `only jhana cittas are samma-samadhi', even if only lokiya samadhi. Samma samadhi arises with each moment of kusala surely? Definitely with any lokiya moments of satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But some argue. This is why I am writing on these. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: In a couple of places you've mentioned the same cetasikas arising with lokuttara cittas as the rupa or arupavacara jhana cittas they arise in `the vicinity' of. Of course the nature of the cetasikas must be different I think because of the accompanying panna and object, nibbana, even if they are the same `kinds'. Interesting topic to discuss. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Characterwise, functionwise each cetasika behaves the same. But powerwise, there is much difference. As you said, this is because the object is 'nibbana'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 36856 Dh Thread 071 and 36907 D.T.072 Excellent. I always enjoy your posts on cittas and cetasikas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is because we have the same interest that is realities. But there are people who are allergic to paramattha dhamma, abhidhamma etc. They would say, 'Suttas do not say this and that.' I just help dhamma studying. No one can walk on the others' path. The Buddha walked on the Path. He showed the Path and taught how to access to the Path. But The Buddha cannot afford us walk on the Path. We have to walk on our own feet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 36935 RobM's theory... RobM `practising breaking link with emotions'. To be honest, if I see a phrase like this in a book I don't read on. As you explain, it suggests an idea of self and a misunderstanding of vedana which arises with every citta. He's fortunate to have your help. Sorry, Rob. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) Annamanna paccayo. :-) I am learning from Dhamma friends . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 36938 Dh Thread 073 on feelings, vedana. Excellent. There are still some I haven't read. I hope any comments or misunderstandings of mine will be taken OK. Thank you again for all your posts and assistance to all of us. Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I also would like to thank you Sarah. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37048 From: connieparker Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: cause of impermanence Larry: ...does vitakka-vicara create the general characteristics of reality? hi, Larry, The general characteristics of reality are just what they are and it's our making an understandable/graspable whole of them that is 'created'/composed by sanna, manasikara, vitakka-vicara, cetana and all. The variegated, painting citta(s). Then, we take this picture/nimitta for reality. So it's our understanding/view of the characteristics and not the characteristics themselves that's the creation. Seems we don't really live in the present 'reality' at all, but 'in the past through the mind door'/present concepts. The true characteristics of realities are only present/experienced before 'we' involve 'ourselves' with concepts... like looking up at stars that may have burned out ages ago. Hope that doesn't short change you on your 2 cents. Really hard for me to try thinking of how the different cetasikas can have a function at all when they are so fleeting, connie 37049 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence: To Nina, Rob K --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Larry, Howard, Nina, Robert K and all How are you? Howard has answered the main part of Larry's issue by way of Yoniso Manasikaara (exercising relevant mental orientation), which is the prerequisite for the Right View. I will add only a few things here. Larry quoted and wrote: "However, Nyanatiloka translates vitakka as thought- conception...snip..snip.. As such, we also need to observe and discover the three characteristics of thinking and rethinking as well. The three characteristics are what distinguish realities from non- realities. By applying Theravada observation methods such as Satipa.t.thaana to realities, we discover their three characterisitcs. By contrast, we cannot discover the three characteristics if the objects we take were unreal things (paññatti dhammaa) because the unreal things do not have the three characterisctics. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Suan, May I ask you a question? What is the object of the 4th jhana? Is it a paramattha dhamma or panatti dhamma? Thanks in advance. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37050 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:36am Subject: Intro Vis. 103, 104 and Tiika. Intro Vis. 103, 104 and Tiika. Vis. 103. III. i. B. That of the 'fine-material sphere', however, is of five kinds (57)-(61) like the profitable (9)-(13). But the profitable occurs in a cognitive series with the impulsions as an attainment [of jhana], while this occurs in an existence [in the fine-material sphere] as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. Vis. 104: 104. III. i. C. And as that of the fine-material sphere [was like the profitable of that sphere] so that of the 'immaterial sphere' (62)-(65) is of four kinds like the profitable too (14)-(17). And its occurrence is classed in the same way as that of the fine-material sphere. Intro Vis. 103 and 104. After the Visuddhimagga has dealt with kusala vipaakacittas and akusala vipaakacittas of the sense-sphere, kaamavacaara cittas, it now deals with the vipaakacittas of higher planes of citta: the plane of ruupaavacaara citta or ruupajhaanacitta (fine-material jhaana) and aruupavacaaracitta or aruupajhaanacitta (immaterial jhaana). Thus, these cittas are the results of kusala kamma that is ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana. ================= Text Vis. 103: 103. III. i. B. That of the 'fine-material sphere', however, is of five kinds (57)-(61) like the profitable (9)-(13). ============== N: The ruupaavacaara vipaakacittas produced by ruupaavaacaara kusala cittas are accompanied by the same jhana-factors. Recapitulating the ruupaavaacaara kusala cittas, classified according to five stages of jhaana, as given by Vis. XIV, 86: Vis.86.< The consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' is fivefold, being classed according to association with the jhana factors. That is to say, (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness(piiti or enthusiasm), bliss (sukha, happy feeling), and concentration, (10) the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. > ========= Text Vis. 103: But the profitable occurs in a cognitive series with the impulsions as an attainment [of jhana],while this occurs in an existence [in the fine-material sphere] as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. =========== N: The translator uses , but the Pali gives , which literally means rebirth. Thus, the vipaakacitta occurs in the following life. Kusala rupaavacaaracitta (ruupa-jhaanacitta) arises within a process of cittas, during the moments of javana-cittas (impulsion). These cittas which are of a high degree of kusala kamma do not produce result in the same life. If one¹s skill in jhaana does not decline and the last javanacittas arising before the dying-consciousness are jhaanacittas, the jhaanacitta can produce vipaaka in the form of rebirth-consciousness of the following life. And then also the bhavanga-cittas and the dying-consciousness are of the same type of ruupaavacaara vipaakacitta. As we have seen before, kusala kamma of the level of ruupa-jhaana, fine-material jhaana, can lead to rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes where there are less sense impressions. There are no nose, tongue, body or sexuality in those planes. Only seeing, hearing, and the experience of mental objects occur. There are no cittas rooted in dosa, since there are no conditions for aversion in these planes. But there can be cittas rooted in lobha. Those who have a limited degree of absorption of the first jhaana will be reborn in the lowest plane of ruupa-brahmans, namely, the plane of Brahma¹s Retinue. Those with a medium and a high degree of absorption of the first jhaana will be reborn accordingly in higher ruupa-brahma planes: the plane of Brahma¹s Ministers and the Great Brahmaas. Each stage of jhaana can be of a limited, a medium or a high degree of absorption, Each of these degrees produces its result accordingly (Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, A.T. P. 108, 109) > The Tiika states that the ruupaavacaara vipaakacitta is similar to the ruupaavacaara kusala citta that produces it, with regard to the accompanying cetasikas, contact, etc. and with regard to the object. Jhaanacitta can have as object the meditation subjects of samatha, such as the kasinas, the brahmavihaaras, etc. . It does not occur with another object. The kamma and the vipaaka in this case are of the same plane of citta (bhuumi). Thus, of the fine-material plane of citta, ruupaavacaara bhuumi. The Tiika explains that with the fifth jhaana the supranatural powers can be attained, but that this does not give a result. We read in The Expositor (p. 380): N: Thus, in the following life. ******* Vis. 104: Text: ================ And as that of the fine-material sphere [was like the profitable of that sphere] so that of the 'immaterial sphere' (62)-(65) is of four kinds like the profitable too (14)-(17). =========== N: To recapitulate: There are four stages of aruupajhaana and all four aruupa-jhaanacittas are accompanied by the same two factors as the fifth ruupa-jhaanacitta, by equanimity and concentration. The four meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana are not dependent on any materiality. They are: Boundless Space, Unbounded Consciousness, Nothingness, Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception. ======== Text Vis: And its occurrence is classed in the same way as that of the fine-material sphere. ======== N: Thus, the Kusala arupaavacaaracitta (aruupa-jhaanacitta) arises within a process of cittas, during the moments of javana-cittas, and these can produce their results accordingly in the next life as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and dying-consciousness. The aruupaavacaara vipaakacittas have the same object as the aruupaavacaara kusala citta which produces it. ************* Nina. 37051 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika.nama/rupa Hi Larry and Phil, op 29-09-2004 01:25 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Phil, > > That's a good point about the desirability of whiskey has to do with > pleasant bodily feeling....On the other hand one might ask why does one like a taste > that is accompanied by neutral feeling or dislike a taste that is > accompanied by a neutral feeling. Ordinarily we are equanimous toward > neutral feeling but there is definitely a lot of like and dislike when > it comes to taste. N: The moments of tasting, vipaakacitta, is accompanied by indifferent feeling, but this is closely followed by akusala cittas with like or dislike and these are conditioned by accumulated inclinations. Different conditions for different dhammas. L: The other question was, isn't it a little hedonistic to say that > pleasant bodily feeling is always the result of virtuous (kusala) > intention? N: It is so difficult to disentangle all these feelings. Bodyconsciousness is a very short moment. So is the accompanying feeling, how can we catch it? When it is pleasant it is the result of kusala kamma. Jon gave in August an example of pleasant temperature when lying in the sun. The heat was a desirable object that body-consciousness accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling experienced. But at the moment of vipaakacitta, citta does not know it is agreeable. Mental feeling is more prominent, it accompanies the seven javana cittas. L: Abhidhamma seems to say there is no such thing as a bad taste; there is only flavour and secondarily liking it or not. At this point, I'm skeptical. N: No, this is not said. There are desirable and undesirable objects. T.A. adds:< intrinsically desirable and undesirable, or imagined to be so.> Remember the discussion with Rob M: generally thought to be desirable, by government officials, etc. A sound produced by anger that is heard is an undesirable object. Hearing is accompanied by indifferent feeling, it does not know that the object is undesirable. It only hears, that is its function. No need to go into this, because we often do not know whether an object is desirable or not, and why should we? It is not important, it does not lead to detachment. Thus, there is the ruupa that is flavour and when that appears, we know that there is a nama that experiences it. It is merely the vipaakacitta that tastes, but it has no like or dislike, does not know what it is, does not know whether it is agreeable or not. Only after that there are akusala cittas with like or dislike. And there is even more to this. An example: you swallow stale orangejuice: even when swallowing there is tangible object, it can be cold or pressure, one of the three Great Elements. Tangible object can impinge anywhere in the body, also inside. You dislike the taste and you wince or shudder. Here citta produces rupas. These rupas are experienced by body-consciousness accompanied by bodily feeling, and then there are reactions again with mental feeling. This to show that in the human plane we are nama and rupa, and all the time there is body-consciousness accompanied by bodily feeling, but just in a moment. This is not so in rupa-brahma planes, where there is no body-consciousness, and in arupa-brahma planes where there is no rupa at all. As Phil said, This is an important point. We should not mix in medical science or psychology. Why so? Because the Dhamma leads to detachment, detachment is the goal. We learn that nama and rupa have different characteristics as they appear one at a time. As I said before, if there is the slightest bit of attachment, if we try to catch, lobha reigns and we shall not know the truth. More understanding of conditions leads to detachment. L: I don't remember Nina's answer but we might consider the > difference between proximate cause, which could be some unvirtuous > (akusala) desire, and the kamma from some previous life of which this > consciousness is the result. N: It need not be kamma of a previous life. But let us not try to find out too much, it distracts from the present moment. L:Additionally we could say the Buddha > certainly didn't sanction the valueing of pleasant bodily feeling. Rupa > is dukkha and feeling is dukkha. N: He taught right understanding of all nama and rupa so that we can see them as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. Nina. 37052 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: cause of impermanence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: hi, Larry, The general characteristics of reality are just what they are and it's our making an understandable/graspable whole of them that is 'created'/composed by sanna, manasikara, vitakka-vicara, cetana and all. The variegated, painting citta(s). Then, we take this picture/nimitta for ..snip..snip.... 'we' involve 'ourselves' with concepts... like looking up at stars that may have burned out ages ago. Hope that doesn't short change you on your 2 cents. Really hard for me to try thinking of how the different cetasikas can have a function at all when they are so fleeting, connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, Thanks for you example of 'star' in comparison with passed realities. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37053 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just a Dog ..... Hello Christine Rusty sounds like a wonderful dog. Sorry things are looking bad. As for the issue of euthanasia, I wonder if it's completely inappropriate to turn to a post that I expect I'll turn to whenever one of the difficult ethical questions or other controversial issues comes up. The wonderful message from Matt about the sexism of lack of same of the Buddha. : >>>>Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is arising and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those views or not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will last 500 or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the sense door right now. In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no women, no men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so beautiful and its followers so unique.<<<< Ph: Do you know what I mean? When we are in the moment, there is no issue of whether the Buddha prohibited suicide or not (though as Eric mentioned, it seems he didn't) and there is no need for you to feel guilty about it - though it will obviously be a terribly painful decision, if it comes. If you consider the emotional realities arising during the decision I suspect you will find karuna there, and it will make your decision a wee bit easier. Eric said "follow your heart." I guess that's what I'm getting at. If we kill in daily life, for example mosquitoes, there are unwholesome factors at work - all that dosa- and obviously in more horrific forms of killing there are very unwholesome factors at work. What you're talking about is completely different, it seems to me. If you put Rusty to sleep because you no long er loved him or because it was a nuisance to take care of him, that would be wrong. Obviously that wouldn't be the case here. There would be karuna. There's no karuna when we kill a mosquito or slaughter a cow. There's only dosa, or greed or other unwholesome factors. Metta, Phil 37054 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:29am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 21 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When in 2nd arupa jhana, the object if the 1st arupa jhana cittas and the citta that takes this object is 2nd arupa jhana citta. This 2nd arupa jhana citta is called 'vinnananca ayatana' citta. This vinnananca ayatana jhana has to be practised to become efficient. The practitioner has to be able to access to this jhana whenever he wants. He also has to be able to stay in 2nd arupa jhana as long as he wants as he predetermined. He has to be able to emerge from his arupa jhana at the exact point of time as he predetermined. He has to be able to contemplate on 2nd arupa jhana. More importantly, he has to be proficient in examination and scrutinization of jhana factors. Through this exercise, once he realises that this 2nd arupa jhana is also quite close to the 1st arupa jhana. Because this jhana takes the object 1st jhana cittas and this is close to rupa nimitta. Through repeated examination and through his realization of less efficientness of 2nd arupa jhana, he becomes dispassionated to this jhana and he has to search for higher jhana so that he may not be pulled down back to lower jhanas. Through repeated and continuing practice, finally he is able to drop the 2nd arupa jhana. The drop here means he nullify the 2nd arupa jhana. This jhana is voided. When this happen is that when the 3rd arupa jhana arises. This 3rd arupa jhana is a citta that take the object of 'nothingness'. This nothingness derived from nullifying of the existing 2nd arupa jhana. It is called 'akincinna ayatana' jhana. Kinca means 'something'. Akinca means 'not something or nothing'. So the object is the idea of nothing. This is just a name and it is a panatta. This 3rd arupa jhana citta only arises when the existing 2nd arupa jhana is lost and nothing arises as an object except the object that the idea of nothingness. May you attain 3rd arupa jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37055 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew > So you admit the perfections can be developed intentionally. That's >the whole point. Well, of course you *can* choose to try to develop them, but I think you'll find it much more deeply encouraging to find them arising naturally in your daily life. That's the way I feel about metta, though as we know an intentional practice of metta meditation is very popular amoungst Buddhists. When metta arises in daily life, not because I intentionally conditioned it that morning by meditating on it but because it is coming a little bit closer to becoming my nature as coarse defilements are eradicated, that seems much more encouraging to me. And I guess the same thing applies for the other perfections. You can decide to try to be energetic, or patient, or determined, or generous, but can you *be* those things by will? Trying to do so requires so much self-driven will power that it seems to me to go against the point, which is becoming more detached from self and its desires. It seems to me that you would risk becoming more dependent on self whenever you set up practice goals. >Now to me the question is just how much of them is >needed to see the Noble Truths and realize unbinding. That's what >it's all about, right? Honestly, I think I've got a decent shot at >it in this very lifetime. Ph: Well, they're all needed, fully and completely. That's why they're called "Perfections!" (I assume that this is a good translation of the Pali paramis - it's certainly the word that is always used in English) And I think the fact that they're called "perfections" tells us that there is a long way to go, and we should go with patience, and determination, and as we go they will be developed naturally as they arise in daily life. Being mindful of the times that they arise will condition more of the same. Yes, I think we've all got a shot at it in this very lifetime. Just being born human at a time when the Buddha's teachings are in the world is very encouraging. But I have a hunch that intending to make it happen in this lifetime dooms us to becoming more tightly bound-up in self. If we press ahead patiently with small moments of mindfulness we are certainly moving towards the unbinding. We shouldn't try to predict when it will come, in my view. I know you are fond of the Satipatthana Sutta's promise of "If a monk develops this for 7 years ... 7 months" and so on. That's got you on a timeline way of thinking. It feels dangerous to me, but I'm just a beginner and that Sutta's been kicking around a long, long time. I trust you've read a lot of commentary and/or worked with a reliable teacher to look more deeply into what the Sutta is getting at. Metta, Phil 37056 From: Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence Hi again, Larry - I've been re-thinking my post to you on the matter of impermanence, characteristics, concepts, and paramattha dhammas, and I find that I'm not fully satisfied with what I had to say. I think this a very deep and difficult matter, and I'd like to add a few more thoughts on it below that constitute a bit of a backing off from my stated position and a move more towards your perspective. In a message dated 9/29/04 8:21:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 9/29/04 12:05:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > LBIDD@w... > writes: > > >Hi all, > > > >My 2 cents worth, the abhidhamma answer to this question is that > >impermanence is a concept and concepts are unconditioned, so there is no > >cause of impermanence, or any other concept. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Larry, don't you find this a wee bit troublesome? Is it not a > fundamental fact, is it not completely true, is it not an *actuality* that > whatever > arises - that is, every conditioned dhamma - ceases? Calling that fact a > concept > does not make it anything less than a preeminent actuality! Isn't > impermanence a property, a lakkhana? Are the tilakkhanas "unreal" just > because they > require inference for us non-arahants to "see" them? Can they not be seen > directly > by wisdom? (And even if they cannot, they remain preeminent realities in my > eyes - at least as real as the "dhammas" to which they apply.) ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here I feel I'm treading on dangerous ground. While I still maintain that the tilakkhana are preeminent facts that may well be directly known by wisdom, I do have to admit that as characteristics of a dhamma such as a hardness-experience, they are perhaps that in name only - that is, they are only *called* characteristics. For a particular instance of hardness experienced a while ago, what was its impermanence? The hardness had occurred, and now there is no hardness. And we then *say* it was impermanent. But if we consider the hardness, where in that hardness was the impermanence? Nowhere! It was not to be found. If we say that its impermanence was its "propensity to cease", that doesn't help matters. Nowhere in that hardness was there to be found a "propensity to cease" - there was just the hardness. To expect to find impermanence in that hardness is like a farmer telling us that a seed has the power to sprout, and us then asking the farmer where in the seed that power is to be found! The tilakkhana are not things or events or anything at all! So, you are right, Larry. Aniccatta, dukkhatta, and anattata - I purposely use the "ness" endings - are concept only. Yet it is actual, it is true, it is real, it is a fact that all conditioned phenomena are impermanent, and they are unsatisfying, impersonal, and dependent. What is the main problem? I think it lies in "thing making", in reification. We tend to make "things" out of all our experiences, and this is most problematic when it comes to abstractions such as impermanence, though certainly not exclusively so. ------------------------------------------------------ > Impermanence does not arise or cease. But it is a *fact*, a *truth*, > an *actuality* that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent, i.e., they > cease. > Larry, ceasing is a reality, ceasing occurs - though it does not, itself, > arise or cease, and it is characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: And yet it is *not* a thing. It is entirely unfindable. -------------------------------------------- And, being a > > characteristic of phenomena, ceasing has causes - the causes are the arising > > of those dhammas and the very dhammas, themselves. If there were no dhammas, > > there would be no impermanence. If there were no arising, there would be no > ceasing. > Now it is true that though arising occurs, arising does not arise, nor > does it cease. Likewise for ceasing. They are empty, they are ungraspable, > but they are not imagined. They are realities, realities of a different sort > > from the so called paramattha dhammas, but realities nonetheless. Emptiness > is > different from unreality. Abhidhamma, grasped wrongly, will lead us into a > host > of problems. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: What I said here I'm still reasonably satisfied with. They are "realities" in the sense of facts, but they are *not* things. ------------------------------------------------ I believe that Nagarjuna's life work was devoted to an attempt to > > avoid such problems and to correct excesses along lines similar to what is > being discussed here. If we let ourselves fall into a doctrinaire rut, going > > overboard in our view of what is "real" and what is not, we will end up > making > the Dhamma, itself, unreal, imagined, and worthless. The "salvation" lies in > the > concept of emptiness, and in avoiding the extremes of "real" and "unreal". > It > is valid, I believe, to distinguish real from imagined, and to distinguish > mentally constructed from mentally unconstructed, but we must take care in > being > too quick to identify mentally unconstructed with real and mentally > constructed with imagined. Moreover, we must take care in our priorities: > Pedantic > details of inessential characteristics of multitudes of listed dhammas > should not > weigh more heavily than the tilakkhana, whose realization are the entrees to > > enlightenment and liberation. It seems to me that we are starting to see > here > what can emerge from an extreme disparaging of so-called pa~n~natti and an > extreme over-dependence on scholastic inessentials at the cost of devaluing > essentials. Care must be taken. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > However, Nyanatiloka> > >translates vitakka as thought-conception. He doesn't go so far as to say > >vitakka is the creation of a concept, but concept has to come from > >somewhere so maybe this is it, or possibly vitakka and vicara together. > >This raises the question, does vitakka-vicara create the general > >characteristics of reality? > > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Now here you are expressing some interesting thinking, I think. > Whether your speculation here is correct or not I don't know, but I do think > it is > good that there is enough questioning in your mind about this matter to > cause > you to want to consider further. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >Larry > > > ============================= > With metta, > Howard > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37057 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence: To Nina, Rob K Dear Suan, Thank you very much, you explained very clearly, much appreciated! When I studied meaning of Dhamma also paññatti was called dhamma. As you say, conditioned paramattha dhammas have the three characteristics. I like this sentence: discovered. They are not manufactured by thinking or by any other > mental associates or by the mind.> Nina. op 29-09-2004 18:10 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > The three characteristics are what distinguish realities from non- > realities. By applying Theravada observation methods such as > Satipa.t.thaana to realities, we discover their three > characterisitcs. > > By contrast, we cannot discover the three characteristics if the > objects we take were unreal things (paññatti dhammaa) because the > unreal things do not have the three characterisctics. 37058 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana Journey ( 20 )Htoo. Dear Htoo and Sarah, A Question. op 28-09-2004 23:49 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > This is 2nd arupa jhana citta. This citta take the object of > paramattha dhamma. This paramattha dhamma is citta. The citta here is > akasanancayatana 1st arupa jhana citta. N: When the 2nd arupa jhana citta takes as object the 1st arupa jhana citta, this has just fallen away. Can we say, this is a navatabba.m aaramana.m? Not so classifiable object? You remember, Sarah discussed this with me. A difficult subject for me. Thank you, with appreciation, Nina. 37059 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg]objects of arupa-jhanacittas Dear Suan and Htoo, I am so interested. I ma also thinking of which arupa-jhanacitta has navattabba.m aarammana.m, as I also asked Htoo concerning the object of the second arupa jhanacitta. Nina. op 29-09-2004 19:29 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Dear Suan, > > May I ask you a question? What is the object of the 4th jhana? Is it > a paramattha dhamma or panatti dhamma? 37060 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just a Dog ..... Dear Christine, I sympathize with you. You know, I do not like to look at photos, but Rusty could not be overlooked in the album, and it was the photo I liked best of all. Nina. op 29-09-2004 15:20 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > For Newbies, you can see a pic of Rusty in the album of 'significant > others' in photos: 37061 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipaka in the kitchen. Htoo. Dear Htoo, Thank you for your sympathetic post. op 26-09-2004 16:48 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > I know. Only arahats have eradicated all the defilements. I just > introduced two words 'recondition' and 'precondition'. >(snipped) > At least reconditioning through our knowledge of dhamma help us > suffering less even though we have not attained higher nanas. > > Confrontation to defilements is a good way as well. While defilements > arise we confront them and at the same time, we know the realities > defilements. As soon as we know that these defilements are realities, > we are developing panna. At least at that time, defilements stop to > arise. > But as long as we have habit, that is as long as we are not mature to > develop higher nanas, this developing of panna among the scatters of > defilements will lapse immediately back to staying with defilements. N: So, it is like a step forward and then backward again, ups and downs. H: I think, here practice will help. In which way it helps? Defilements > become thiner and thiner even though there may be a large bulk inside > of us. The practice makes us as if we are externally free of > defilements. N: Perhaps you think of jhana, but as you know, jhana is not for everybody. But there are all the other ways of kusala, the perfections, and they sure help. You use the word preconditioning, but, we never know what vipaka will come, what losses will come, and it depends on many conditions how we shall react. Since it is all anatta. How could we be prepared for the future? A Question: The worldly conditions are gain and loss, honour and dishonour, etc. and here the Buddha speaks by way of conventional truth, situations in life. If I have a heart-piercing loss, the loss of a dear one, how can we see here the paramattha dhammas which are moments of vipaakacittas? Is it through eyes, through ears? It is hard to analyse here the situation. I think that is why Larry said that vipaaka is a concept. Nina. 37062 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dear Htoo (1)Htoo. Dear Htoo, op 29-09-2004 18:23 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > This is difficult to answer. But what I have read was that when > sotappatti magga nana has been achieved, sotapatti phala samapatti > can be done. > > So the answer to your question 'Is this correct?' is to be > honest 'don't know' from me but I think I read it in a dhamma book > which might be a commentary. N: According to Visudhimagga and other Co, when an ariyan has developed jhana and attains enlightenment, magga-citta and phala-cittas arise, and after some preparation he canlater on experience as often as he wants nibbaana with phalacittas which arise again and again. Nina. 37063 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Just a Dog ..... Hello James, Sarah, Eric, Connie, Steve, Phil, Nina, all, Thank you for your posts - they have helped enormously. Just being able to tell Rustys' story, and speak about my dilemna, in a place where there are understanding ears to hear, eases things so much. I'm off to work right now - and then later in the morning comes the telephone call ... I've also been thinking on and off through this experience, about how grief over a companion animals' death is one of the "disenfranchised griefs" - just as is, in many places, the loss of a same sex partner and a miscarriage/still birth. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37064 From: Egbert Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: cause of impermanence Hi Connie, Larry, I love this post. The painting image does wonders for me. Still, it pisses me off that all these painting cittas are hurling paintballs around, regardless of whether the canvas is viewed wrongly or rightly, as being pleasant or unpleasant. Even the viewing of the canvas is part of the canvas, as is my being pissed off with the whole show. On and on and on it goes. If it were not were not for the possibility of switching off, there would be a portrayal in there somewhere of me getting implants, just so I could rip my hair out :-) Thanks Connie, and Kind Regards > The general characteristics of reality are just what they are and it's our making an understandable/graspable whole of them that is 'created'/composed by sanna, manasikara, vitakka-vicara, cetana and all. > The variegated, painting citta(s). Then, we take this picture/nimitta for reality. So it's our understanding/view of the characteristics and not the characteristics themselves that's the creation. Seems we don't really live in the present 'reality' at all, but 'in the past through the mind door'/present concepts. The true characteristics of realities are only present/experienced before 'we' involve 'ourselves' with concepts... like looking up at stars that may have burned out ages ago. > Hope that doesn't short change you on your 2 cents. Really hard for me to try thinking of how the different cetasikas can have a function at all when they are so fleeting, > connie 37065 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner -Herman Hello Herman, I read over parts of this post several times, ...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Ken, > .....snip.... What caught my eye in the section Sarah > posted, which became enough of a reason for my posting, was: "the > same object as experienced by the last javana cittas arising before > the cuti-citta of the previous life (4). > > Now you say existence can only ever be the present moment of citta. > What on earth is a previous life? In terms of citta, what is a life? > A: For me, there's a fine line bet. the real world of cittas etc and the concepts, last life , this life etc. When it comes to dhammas, I feel like I'm walking bet 2 worlds - here's me writing to you, after this, I'll go for a swim blah blah blah, this is one world; the other one is the world of cittas, cetasikas, rupas, conditions; a juxtaposition. Kinda can't have one without the other, but the difference bet the 2 is that one is the 'real' one and the other is the 'illusory' one. Just a few 'azit amusings'! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 37066 From: Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika.nama/rupa Hi Azita, Here's an attempt at clarification but this idea takes a little getting used to, so maybe we should just let it cook for a while. Two people look at the same light, one of them is colour blind. One person sees a red light; the other sees a brown light, or whatever colour a colour blind person sees. It seems obvious to me that in this situation colour is a consciousness, a phenomenon called consciousness. It follows from this that all experienced rupas are consciousnesses. We usually say that consciousness cognizes rupa. What does this mean? In Indian philosophy there is the metaphor of a crystal placed on a piece of coloured cloth. The crystal takes on the colour of the cloth. Similarly when consciousness cognizes red it becomes red. The red that we know and experience is a consciousness. The red that is not a consciousness we can know only through reasoning, like the colour blind person. I'm not claiming that this is an abhidhamma explanation. It is just an attempt to understand experience. Larry 37067 From: Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence Hi all, Many interesting responses, heartfelt and insightful. However, I didn't see any that had the taste of abhidhamma. Suan, I'm not sure if you were saying that concepts do not come from vitakka-vicara. If not, where do they come from? Also, the general characteristics are not what differentiates concept from reality. Own nature (sabhava) distinguishes reality from concept. However, own nature is own becoming, so they are nearly the same. I believe concept is classed as anatta, but I'm not sure. Not seeing a really good answer, I'm considering this to still be an open question: what is the cause of impermanence? Here's another attempt. The cessation of desire is the cessation of impermanence. Therefore desire is the cause of impermanence. Larry 37068 From: Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Vis. 103, 104 and Tiika. Hi Nina, Am I correct in understanding that there are no resultant consciousnesses in the fine-material and immaterial planes, except for the 3 kinds of bhavanga? If so, how can there be seeing and hearing? Is the only cognitive process in these planes the cycling through the jhanas or continuous dwelling on one jhana? Larry -------------------- N: "As we have seen before, kusala kamma of the level of ruupa-jhaana, fine-material jhaana, can lead to rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes where there are less sense impressions. There are no nose, tongue, body or sexuality in those planes. Only seeing, hearing, and the experience of mental objects occur. There are no cittas rooted in dosa, since there are no conditions for aversion in these planes. But there can be cittas rooted in lobha. Those who have a limited degree of absorption of the first jhaana will be reborn in the lowest plane of ruupa-brahmans, namely, the plane of Brahma¹s Retinue. Those with a medium and a high degree of absorption of the first jhaana will be reborn accordingly in higher ruupa-brahma planes: the plane of Brahma¹s Ministers and the Great Brahmaas. Each stage of jhaana can be of a limited, a medium or a high degree of absorption, Each of these degrees produces its result accordingly (Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, A.T. P. 108, 109) >" 37069 From: Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence Hi Howard, I think this below is very interesting. I hadn't thought it out before, but it looks right to me. Larry ------------------------------- H: "Here I feel I'm treading on dangerous ground. While I still maintain that the tilakkhana are preeminent facts that may well be directly known by wisdom, I do have to admit that as characteristics of a dhamma such as a hardness-experience, they are perhaps that in name only - that is, they are only *called* characteristics. For a particular instance of hardness experienced a while ago, what was its impermanence? The hardness had occurred, and now there is no hardness. And we then *say* it was impermanent. But if we consider the hardness, where in that hardness was the impermanence? Nowhere! It was not to be found. If we say that its impermanence was its "propensity to cease", that doesn't help matters. Nowhere in that hardness was there to be found a "propensity to cease" - there was just the hardness. To expect to find impermanence in that hardness is like a farmer telling us that a seed has the power to sprout, and us then asking the farmer where in the seed that power is to be found! The tilakkhana are not things or events or anything at all!" 37070 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:24pm Subject: View on Death Hi Christine, At this difficult time, I would like to share with you my personal view on death. Over the past 12 years, there have been many moments when Rusty had an impact on you, on your daughter and on others. Because of that impact, you and the others were changed. Because you and the others were changed, this changed the way in which you impacted other beings. I visualize a pebble being dropped into water; there are concentric rings getting progressively weaker as they expand. Do not limit your view of Rusty to a "collection of bones or fur" or "a stream of momentary cittas and cetasikas". Include in your definition of Rusty the focus of those concentric rings. Those rings will expand forever, yet their focus will always remain the same; that which was essentially Rusty. Metta and Karuna, Rob M :-) 37071 From: Egbert Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:45pm Subject: Re: cause of impermanence Hi Larry and Howard, Thank you for a very interesting and worthwhile discussion. I am wondering if it is possible that the structure of perception, any perception, is based on impermanence. Only that which changes is perceivable and perceived, so what is perceived at any time are not actualities, but differences in a never ending flux (with no hint of moments of fixed duration). The (dis)ability to take snapshots of a boiling cauldron may suggest steady but short-lived, identifiable states that rise and fall within it, but such a conclusion can only come from taking the snapshots as being their own reality. So e.g. hardness may appear as reality in which impermanence is not to be found, but when hardness is seen as a snapshot of what is in fact never static, the underlying reality becomes known, which is impermanence in which nothing, in any sense, is found. Just my musings, of course :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I think this below is very interesting. I hadn't thought it out before, > but it looks right to me. > > Larry > ------------------------------- > H: "Here I feel I'm treading on dangerous ground. While I still maintain > that the tilakkhana are preeminent facts that may well be directly known > by wisdom, I do have to admit that as characteristics of a dhamma such > as a hardness-experience, they are perhaps that in name only - that is, > they are only *called* characteristics. For a particular instance of > hardness experienced a while ago, what was its impermanence? The > hardness had occurred, and now there is no hardness. And we then *say* > it was impermanent. But if we consider the hardness, where in that > hardness was the impermanence? Nowhere! It was not to be found. If we > say that its impermanence was its "propensity to cease", that doesn't > help matters. Nowhere in that hardness was there to be found a > "propensity to cease" - there was just the hardness. To expect to find > impermanence in that hardness is like a farmer telling us that a seed > has the power to sprout, and us then asking the farmer where in the seed > that power is to be found! The tilakkhana are not things or events or > anything at all!" 37072 From: Egbert Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:59pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner -Herman Hi Azita, Thanks for your time and consideration. ======= > > > A: For me, there's a fine line bet. the real world of cittas etc > and the concepts, last life , this life etc. > When it comes to dhammas, I feel like I'm walking bet 2 worlds - > here's me writing to you, after this, I'll go for a swim blah blah > blah, this is one world; the other one is the world of cittas, > cetasikas, rupas, conditions; a juxtaposition. Kinda can't have > one without the other, but the difference bet the 2 is that one is > the 'real' one and the other is the 'illusory' one. > Just a few 'azit amusings'! > ======= I like azit amusings :-) I don't want to tie your brain or mine in any more knots than is absolutely necessary, but this cuti-citta seems very specific, and I am attempting to grasp what its function is. Using your musings, it reads like cuti-citta and rebirth- consciousness are real bridges between two illusory states. Which is what I can't get my knotted mind around. What is different about the cittas before the bridge to the ones after the bridge? Why the bridge if it is a continuous stream anyway? Kind Regards Herman > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 37073 From: Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cause of impermanence Hi, Herman (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/29/04 9:47:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Larry and Howard, > > Thank you for a very interesting and worthwhile discussion. I am > wondering if it is possible that the structure of perception, any > perception, is based on impermanence. Only that which changes is > perceivable and perceived, so what is perceived at any time are not > actualities, but differences in a never ending flux (with no hint of > moments of fixed duration). > > The (dis)ability to take snapshots of a boiling cauldron may suggest > steady but short-lived, identifiable states that rise and fall > within it, but such a conclusion can only come from taking the > snapshots as being their own reality. > > So e.g. hardness may appear as reality in which impermanence is not > to be found, but when hardness is seen as a snapshot of what is in > fact never static, the underlying reality becomes known, which is > impermanence in which nothing, in any sense, is found. > > Just my musings, of course :-) > > > Kind Regards > > Herman > ========================== Herman, I believe that what you are saying here is has real depth to it and is important for me to understand? I *think* I do get what you are saying. If I do, then what I say in the next paragraph may be in agreement with it. Please let me knoe. As regards allegedly discrete, momentary phenomena that arise and then cease the instant after, and during that zero-durational moment are utterly static, I'm afraid I'm not at all certain that is how things are. I don't really buy sharp-edged, instantaneous phenomena, because I don't think that any such thing is ever experienced, and what is not experienced is not an experiential reality. I see experience as occurring over time intervals that have positive, not zero, duration, and, moreover, I think these intervals are what theorists working in artificial intelligence might refer to as "fuzzy intervals", without sharp, delineated beginnings or endings. Are you saying something along these lines? (BTW, this understanding does not contradict impermanence, for all that it means to say that conditions are impermanent, is that what is present now will not indefinitely remain - that is, at some time later, it will not be present.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37074 From: Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cause of impermanence Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/29/04 10:20:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Herman, I believe that what you are saying here is has real depth to > it and is important for me to understand? ==================== The question mark in the foregoing is a remnant of a previous formulation. Please change it to a period! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37075 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:26pm Subject: View on Life (was View on Death) Hi Christine (again), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > At this difficult time, I would like to share with you my personal > view on death. > > Over the past 12 years, there have been many moments when Rusty had > an impact on you, on your daughter and on others. Because of that > impact, you and the others were changed. Because you and the others > were changed, this changed the way in which you impacted other > beings. I visualize a pebble being dropped into water; there are > concentric rings getting progressively weaker as they expand. > > Do not limit your view of Rusty to a "collection of bones or fur" > or "a stream of momentary cittas and cetasikas". Include in your > definition of Rusty the focus of those concentric rings. Those rings > will expand forever, yet their focus will always remain the same; > that which was essentially Rusty. > > Metta and Karuna, > Rob M :-) ===== The above view on death has influenced my thinking since I was a teenager, it even predates my study of Buddhism. I feel that a scholar who can recite Suttas in Pali from memory is much further from the Dhamma than one who puts the four brahamaviharas into action in their lives. I understand that your job involves providing counseling at the local hospital to people who have had traumatic experiences (such as rape victims). Now that you know my view on death, perhaps you can see why I have huge admiration for you. What impresses me most is not your compassion but rather your equanimity. It is not difficult to imagine having compassion for a rape victim... what makes you special is your equanimity. Equanimity is much more than simply meditating on the phrase, "all beings are heirs to their kamma". Equanimity in action means being able to cut off mental proliferation (papanca) at an early stage. You hear something unpleasant, but your mind does not get consumed by it. That is your unique skill that I admire so much. Please don't take this metaphor wrongly, but I see you as "a garbage pail with no bottom". People can dump their most unpleasant things into you (thereby lessening their load) and none of it accumulates (you can come back to work the next day). Because it does not accumulate, you can use judgement to give sound advice rather than get caught up in the emotion of the moment (and that doesn't help anybody). Only an Anagami can perfect equanimity, so I am sure that you must carry some of the burden of your work back with you each evening. I suspect that part of your ritual each evening is to spend some time with Rusty. Your time with Rusty is therapeutic, helping to clean the last remnants of the garbage pail so that you can be effective the following day. The way that I see it, Rusty has helped the thousands of patients that you have seen over the years. That help is part of Rusty's ripples. Should Rusty die, you may want to give another animal a chance to help so many people. Metta, karuna and upekkha, Rob M :-) 37076 From: connieparker Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:57pm Subject: silence Hey, Andrew L, Just reading through some of the early posts for this group and came across the following in #6427 from Jim Anderson: < ...The Buddha made a vinaya rule against the practice of silence (muugabbata) as follows: "Monks, an observance of members of other sects, the practice of silence, should not be observed. Whoever observes it, there is an offence of wrong-doing." -- The Book of the Discipline, Part 4, p. 211 trs. I.B. Horner. It also comes with a story of several pages long leading up to the Buddha making this rule. It involved several monks deciding to observe silence together during a rains-retreat (it's at the beginning of the Pavaara.naakkhandhaka, Mahaavagga). > If that strikes a chord, you might be interested in #'s 6445, 6446 and 6572 as well. In particular, the bit on Noble Silence was another reminder to me that we need to take the Buddha's words on his terms instead of trusting our own understanding. Also, it doesn't speak well of my sense of humour, but there's something in one about pigs that made me laugh. I don't know how much of a vow not talking (much) might be in my case, and don't mean to say we should live like monks, but I know, from things people have said to me about my 'never' (their word) talking, it bothers them. Afraid, too, it gives some people the impression that I know more than I do so they probably don't bother telling me things I might not think of on my own. Not saying we should just join in with everyone around us, either. Since most of my outside social life for the last four years has been a weekly meditation group meeting, I'd pretty much forgotten how people talk to each other and there was a bit of 'culture shock' on hearing some of it when I started working again. I guess it's like with your bagel eaters - what is there to say most of the time? Sarah said something to me once about letting metta run my mouth and that seems to work. At least I don't regret anything I do say even if it isn't something I would've bothered opening my mouth for before. peace, connie 37077 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:58pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - importance of samatha Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.dhammastudy.com/merits3.html S. : If someone wants to apply himself to the development of kusala citta with calm to the degree of attainment concentration, which is jhaana, he must have a detailed knowledge of samatha bhaavanaa. He must know which meditation subject he should recollect, and how he should do this with kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa, so that there is true calm and he can reach different levels of samaadhi, concentration. He should also know that there are different types of persons who develop kusala citta with calm and that these types of persons can, accordingly, attain different levels of calm. All this is very intricate. Do you wish to develop samatha to the degree of jhaana? W. : One needs to study this subject in great detail, and, moreover, jhaana can only temporarily subdue defilements. Therefore, I prefer to develop insight, vipassanaa. Vipassanaa can eradicate defilements completely, so that they never arise again. S. : It is still necessary to discuss samatha bhaavanaa, because we should know the difference between the level of bhaavanaa which is the temporary subduing of defilements by calm and the level which is the complete eradication of defilements. (end quote) Ph: K Sujin asks "Do you wish to develop samatha to the degree of jhanaa?" In my case, the answer is I wish I could. I hope conditions arise which allow me to develop jhanas some day, or in some lifetime. I have faith that they will because I have a feeling that they are necessary in the higher/later stages of enlightenment. K Sujin and Nina and others' at DSG teach that there is Right Concentration with every citta, in the one-pointedness of that universal cetasika that is often translated as concentration - I forget it's name at the moment. I have trouble accepting this as the form of Right Concentration the Buddha teaches. Surely there is concentration, but it seems to this beginner that concentration to the degree of jhanas is where Right Concentration lies. There are so many suttas that point to that. That being said, I also am skeptical about how many people have the conditions to develop jhanas, and I suspect that there is a lot of false jhanifying going on out there. People who decide to develop jhanas because they know that if they don't they won't get the full benefits of the Buddha's teaching. There is self seeking benefits, I'm sure, a lot of the time. In any case, vipassana in daily life is a noble way and will condition access to jhanas in the future. I have faith in that. On that note, I found this from Nina's first post in the Removal of Distracting Thoughts series: >Co: The kusala citta arising with the ten bases of wholesomeness is not >higher citta, adhicitta. The citta with the eight attainments that is based >on vipassana is higher than that, it is the higher citta. >N: the eight attainments in jhana. B.B. speaks about vipassana based on >jhana, but it is the opposite in this case: here it is jhana based on >vipassana. Also PTS footnote gives: the eight attainments based on >vipassana. Only then the citta is pure, higher citta, because one does not >take jhana for self. Does this mean that jhana can be conditioned by vipassana as I was hoping above? The reason I have trouble sitting now is that I clearly sense self behind it. When I have cultivated vipassana in daily life as a practitioner of "dry insight", this will help me to be liberated from self enough to seek jhanas? Not liberated from self to the point of sotapanna - but self view weakened enough to sit without self seeking jhanas? Should I read it that way? I'm not fretting about this. Jhanas will come in this lifetime, or they won't - according to conditions. I understand that quite clearly. Metta, Phil 37078 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner -Herman Hi Herman (and Azita), ------------- H: > What caught my eye in the section Sarah posted, which became enough of a reason for my posting, was: "the same object as experienced by the last javana cittas arising before the cuti-citta of the previous life (4). > ------------- KH: The cuti citta `of the previous life' is just a way of describing a particular cuti-citta. There have been countless billions of them. And if we don't get on with our Dhamma studies there will be countless billions to come! ---------------- H: > Now you say existence can only ever be the present moment of citta. What on earth is a previous life? > ---------------- KH: `What WAS a previous life,' might be a better question, but even then, it ties my brain in knots, just like it does yours and Azita's. In absolute terms there is no past and no future - no previous life and no future life - there is only the present moment. As a conventional way of describing absolute reality, the previous life was any and every moment of consciousness between the second- most-recent patisandhi (rebirth) citta and the most recent cuti- citta. --------- H: > In terms of citta, what is a life? > --------- KH: In absolute terms, there is no period of time called a life. There is only the present moment. A person who is well versed in Abhidhamma might recognise the present moment (its citta or any of the cetasikas and rupas) for what it is. It might be a vipaka moment of seeing, hearing, etc., it might be a functional moment, or it might be an impulsive moment. It might be a moment of rebirth, a moment of dying or any of the moments in between. ------------- H: > Can you tell me what differentiates (ie by what are they known to be different) rebirth, life-continuum, dying consciousness from other cittas? > ------------- KH: I could try but not with any great confidence. In fact, I don't think I will try - my brain is in enough knots already. :-) ---------------- H: You are saying satipatthana knows, say, a dying consciousness from another consciousness. What is it that it knows? Or do I have to wait and find out for myself :-) > ---------------- KH: I think the correct list of dhammas that `know' is; citta, panna, sanna and sati. --------------- H: > Some more comments interspersed below. If you are saying that only citta are real, then we have no common ground to discuss further. Because in order to discuss, we need the Internet, and it is not a citta. How then to discuss :-)? > ------------ Exactly! There are no discussions, there is only the present moment of citta. Any ideas of discussion, you, me, the internet and so on are just that - ideas. Ideas occur in various moments of citta as illusory objects. We can't stop them: they keep cropping up. Look, we are having that discussion after all! :-) Kind regards, Ken H 37079 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:07am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 22 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Akincinna ayatana' arupa jhana or the 3rd arupa jhana does not related to any of rupa. The kusala of this arupa jhana can give rise to rebirth in arupa brahma bhumis. This arupa jhana also need to be proficient so that the jhana state can be effectively maintained. Otherwise, as jhanas always have enemies, these enemies will at a time destroy all jhanas. The practitioner contemplates on his 3rd arupa jhana. As soon as he contemplates on his 3rd arupa jhana, he knows that it is an arupa jhana citta and it has its accompaniments. He practises his jhanas so that he can access to his 3rd arupa jhana whenever he wants. This means that he may at a time not in arupa jhana but may be in rupa jhana or in kamavacara cittas. When he thinks of 3rd arupa jhana he has to produce his effort to ascend up through different jhanic states and reaches the 3rd arupa jhana. He also needs to practise to plan how long he will stay in 3rd arupa jhana. This is determination on the duration of 3rd arupa jhana beforehand. Through this exercise, he will be able to work with jhanas very effectively. He also needs to be able to rise from his 3rd arupa jhana at a predetermined time. This has to be exact. When the determined period has been achieved he has to emerge from his arupa jhana. More importantly, he has to examine and scrutinize his arupa jhana and the make of arupa jhana. Through this exercise, he sees that there are ekaggata or concentration and upekkha or the feeling of equanimity as jhana factors which are the same jhana factors in 5th rupa jhana. But when he examines the 3rd arupa jhana, the object of this arupa jhana is not the same as 5th rupa jhana. The object here is very subtle. It is the idea of nothingness. As the object is subtle, the jhana is also subtle. And the jhana citta is also subtle. There are viewer and viewee. The viewer is 3rd arupa jhana citta. The viewee is the idea of nothingness. Nothingness is voidness, emptiness and there is nothing at all. When this object is attended, the attending cittas are very subtle. They are so subtle that they cannot be said they have perception. They cannot be said that they have sanna. And equally, they cannot be said that they are without perception or they are non-perception. They cannot be said that they have non-sanna. When this state of mind arises, there is nothing related to rupa appear or occur or arise. So this state is also a state of arupa jhana. There is no hindrances. This is quite sure. So this is a state of jhana. It is arupa jhana. The object here is the 3rd arupa jhana citta. This 3rd arupa jhana citta is viewed by 4th arupa jhana citta. This 4th arupa jhana citta which arises after releasing 3rd arupa jhana and exists as a separate arupa jhana citta sees the passed 3rd arupa jhana citta. This 3rd arupa jhana citta is a reality. This is paramattha dhamma. And this arupa jhana the 4th is the highest of all loki cittas or this mental state or mind state is the highest in all worldly and heavenly consciousness that is 81 lokiya cittas. This 4th arupa jhana is said to be neither perception nor non- perception. It is called ''n'eva sanna nasanna ayatana'' arupa jhana. Sanna is perception. Nasanna is non-perception. Eva means 'such' 'such as'. Na means 'no' 'not' 'none'. Nevasannanasanna ayatana can be understood as neither perception nor non-perception. May you be free from all nivaranas and stay in jhanas. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37080 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana Journey ( 20 )Htoo. Dear Htoo and Sarah, A Question. >This is 2nd arupa jhana citta. This citta take the object of >paramattha dhamma. This paramattha dhamma is citta. The citta here is >akasanancayatana 1st arupa jhana citta. N: When the 2nd arupa jhana citta takes as object the 1st arupa jhana citta,this has just fallen away. Can we say, this is a navatabba.m aaramana.m? Not so classifiable object? You remember, Sarah discussed this with me. A difficult subject for me. Thank you, with appreciation, Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, It is difficult to say. But I personally feel that it is a paramattha dhamma. When we were children, we walked on the beaches. As a child, sometimes we walked backwards with our back forwarding and seeing our own foot-print there on the sand of the beach. There were many foot-prints as we walked quite a far. Our feet were still moving left and right and left and right backwardly while seeing the footprint in front of the eyes. The sand there was boundless and limitless. The foot-prints there were boundless and limitless. The sand there can be equate with boundless space. The footprints there can be equated with 1st arupa jhana cittas. The second arupa jhana citta or vinnanaca ayatana citta sees these footprints of mind. As patisandhi, bhavanga, cuti cittas can take past object, I think vinnananca ayatana citta can also take past object. Marana asanna javana cittas can take paramattha dhamma or pannatti dhamma. When they take paramattha dhamma, patisandhi, bhavanga, and cuti cittas of next life will also take paramattha dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37081 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi RobM & All, (Herman at the end), I'm not a great chart person, but had planned to look at the ones you referred to before now. I also fished out these past posts which may be relevant to the discussions. (There may be others under 'kamma' in UP): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12100 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19267 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20064 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32581 I particularly recommend Jon's post 19267 above to everyone as giving a clear summary on the topic, I think. On the charts: --- robmoult wrote: > U Silananda's chart seems to indicate that only cetana in lobha-mula > cittas can condition results according to asynchronous kamma > condition. You have quoted Tiikas indicating that this is incorrect. ... S: I assume you're looking at p141 in his notes. I think this may just be an example. In the more detailed chart on p.137 or on p.311 in CMA, under asynchronous kamma, it has '33 past wh.and unwh. volitions'. Have I misunderstood you? ... > U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Chapter IV, page 197 - > 205, "Detailed Explanation of Asynchronous Kamma" has a lot of > detail on this. I haven't read it all yet, but glancing at the chart > on page 198, I see that: > - 11 faulty volitions exclusive of restlessness can cause rebirth in > the four lower planes > - 12 faulty volitions can arise during life in the sensous or the > fine material spheres ... S: so it's the same by my basic arithmetic. ... > It would appear that U Narada's presentation agrees with the Tiika > and contradicts U Silananda's chart. ... :-/ ... <...> > I said the following: > - the tree fell due to many natural conditions, but kamma was not > involved > - there was a tactile object (a rupa) as part of "tree" and body > sensitivity (another rupa) as part of "leg" together and this was a > condition for body consciousness citta to arise ... S: only because of past kamma. I'm not sure if you saw my recent comments in a post to Dan on this? ... > - because the nature of the rupa was inherently undesireable, the > body consciousness which arose is of the "akusala vipaka" type and > there was unpleasant bodily feeling ... S: kamma conditions vipaka to experience the desirable/undesirable object at that moment. ... <...> > When the tree fell on the leg: > - the arising of the tangible object rupa ("the tree") has nothing > to do with kamma > - body sensitivity rupa ("the leg") is produced by kamma; the kamma > which propelled us into this existence. > > The object of the sense door citta process has nothing to do with > kamma; the object arises because of other conditions. ... S: You're right, but without kamma it would not be the object. A blind person doesn't see visible object. ... >However, it is > the arising of the object which is a condition for the sense door > process to arise. ... S: One of the conditions. ... S: In another post I have in front of me, I thought your breakdown for Herman (t=1 etc)in post 36741 was a great effort. The part I had most difficulty with was under t=4, starting with 'the role of the five sense door adverting citta is to control the flow of the mind....concentrate, one-pointedness...'til almost the end of that section. Again, a little later 'an undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise' is formulated the wrong way round, I think. I'd prefer to say that akusala kamma results in akusala vipaka experiencing an undesirable object that has arisen. (btw, Herman, if you're reading this, I thought your post 35678 to Andrew with the analogy of your 3x3 puzzle was very good. Understanding dhammas such as hardness or visible object is just like this. 'look at the letters, walk away, ......and whammo, the answer will jump out at you'.) Metta, Sarah ====== 37082 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the ocean of concepts. Hi Larry, just butting in. op 30-09-2004 01:43 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: . We > usually say that consciousness cognizes rupa. What does this mean? In > Indian philosophy there is the metaphor of a crystal placed on a piece > of coloured cloth. The crystal takes on the colour of the cloth. > Similarly when consciousness cognizes red it becomes red. N: You explained that very well, I know what you mean. Indian philosophy. I learnt many languages, this opened the gate for me to understand many cultures, religions, that was our kind of life in the diplomatic service. I studied some philosophies, but not thoroughly like Howard. I have the deepest respect for all religions, and I like to listen, I am sincerely interested. But my life is too short. You have studied the Abhidhamma, but in order to profit to the full we have to ask ourselves a few questions. You study Nagarjuna (we see a lot of remnants of him in Nalanda where we go, very interesting), and other Mahayana branches, but it is good to ask ourselves: does it help me in daily life? You find that the red colour is consciousness, but does this lead to detachment? Does it lead to the weakening of defilements? I am truly confronted now with old age, sickness and death. I have to meet difficult situations, the loss of dear ones, unkind people, disappointments, my own faults and vices that cause trouble. We sincerely have to consider our practice in daily life, that is what matters. The Abhidhamma helps us to know in a more detailed way what hinders the practice of the brahma viharas, of metta and compassion when I am with other people. And we are confronted with people all the time. When there is the loss of a dear one, we are sad. But it is actually our clinging to our own pleasant feeling we derived from his company, pure selfishness causes sadness. Just selfishness that creeps in all the time. When I develop metta and karuna, what is in the way? My own selfishness I mistakenly take for metta. I expect too much from others, and this means I need the Brahmavihara of equanimity. But we have to know our own cittas. The Abhidhamma is of great benefit to have more understanding of daily life right now. Understanding leads to detachment. I am thinking of this with the study of the Vis. It can and should help us with the practice. It is not an intellectual exercise. We can profit from the suttas with the understanding of the Abhidhamma. The suttas help us in our daily practice. They go straight to the heart. Larry, do not get drowned in the ocean of concepts, return to the suttas with their very direct language, and many practical counsels. Nina. 37083 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence Hi Larry and Howard, op 29-09-2004 21:00 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: 9snipped) Calling that fact a >> concept >> does not make it anything less than a preeminent actuality! Isn't >> impermanence a property, a lakkhana? Are the tilakkhanas "unreal" just >> because they >> require inference for us non-arahants to "see" them? Can they not be seen >> directly >> by wisdom? (And even if they cannot, they remain preeminent realities in my >> eyes - at least as real as the "dhammas" to which they apply.) N:Right! In our Vis study of the rupas that are characteristics of rupas, lakkhana rupas, we learnt that these are realities. But then I posted another Vis text which I looked up again, I do not mind to repeat here. Vis. XXI, 6, footnote 4 (from the Tiika): (Pm. 825). This footnote is to the text quoting the sutta S.N. III, 22. We should not get stuck with theory. We have to realize first the particular characteristics (visesa lakkhana) of the dhammas that appear now. Seeing has one characteristic, hearing is different, thinking is different, hardness is different. We have such a lot to learn right now. If there is no awareness of all these dhammas there is no hope to understand the three characteristics, which are characteristics *of* dhammas, of the five khandhas, nama and rupa. How could we realize the arising and falling away of nama and rupa if we do not know their characteristics which appear now through the six doors? When time comes, after insight has been developed, the three characteristics of dhammas, of seeing, of hearing, etc. shall be directly known. Then there will not be doubts nor dilemmas. No wondering about realities and concepts. Nina. 37084 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Vis. 103, 104 and Tiika. Hi Larry, op 30-09-2004 02:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Am I correct in understanding that there are no resultant > consciousnesses in the fine-material and immaterial planes, except for > the 3 kinds of bhavanga? If so, how can there be seeing and hearing? N:In ruupa-brahma there are less sense impressions. As I wrote: In the aruupa-brahma planes, there is only nama, thus there are mind-door processes. There are also kaamaavacara cittas in the fine-material and immaterial planes, including cittas rooted in lobha. Thus, beings in those planes do not dwell in jhaana all the time. L: Is the only cognitive process in these planes the cycling through the > jhanas or continuous dwelling on one jhana? N: No. There can be the development of paññaa in the fine-material planes. The anaagamii is reborn in the Pure Abodes, one of the fine-material planes and he can attain arahatship there. In the immaterial planes a non-ariyan cannot become a sotaapanna, since he cannot develop understanding of rupa. Nama has to be known as nama and rupa as rupa. This reminds us. We are now in the human plane, we can listen and develop understanding. We can still study the teachings, but time will come that they are no longer available, and that there are periods of time without the teachings. We should remember the Three Divine Messengers of old age, sickness and death (Gradual Sayings III, 35) Andrew L likes to refer to. We may regret that later. Nina. 37085 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:36am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner24-Contact /Phassa(j) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** The following sutta in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, Chapter III, §129, Ghosita) deals with realities as elements and it is explained that different phenomena which arise have different conditions. The sutta does not mention each moment of citta in the process of cittas. It is understood that the pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling referred to do not arise at the moment of seeing-consciousness, but later on in the process. We read: ** -Once the venerable Ånanda was staying at Kosambí in Ghosita Park. Then the housefather Ghosita came to see the venerable Ånanda. Seated at one side he said this to the venerable Ånanda: '"Diversity in elements! Diversity in elements!" is the saying, my lord Ånanda. Pray, sir, how far has diversity in elements been spoken of by the Exalted One?' 'When the elements of eye and objects that are pleasing and eye-consciousness occur together, housefather, owing to the pleasurable contact there arises pleasant feeling. When the elements of eye, objects that are displeasing and eye-consciousness occur together, owing to the unpleasant contact resulting there arises painful feeling. When the elements of eye, objects that are of indifferent effect and eye-consciousness occur together, owing to neutral contact resulting, there arises feeling that is neutral. So when the elements of ear… nose… tongue… body… when the elements of mind and objects that are pleasurable and mindconsciousness occur together. When mind and objects that are displeasing… or mind and objects that are of indifferent effect occur together, owing to the contact resulting, whether it be pleasing, displeasing or neutral, there arises feeling that is pleasing, displeasing or neutral. Thus far, housefather, diversity in elements has been spoken of by the Exalted One.- ** When we read this sutta we can be reminded to see phenomena as elements which arise dependent on conditions. Sometimes the object which phassa contacts is pleasant, sometimes unpleasant; this is beyond control. Because of our defilements, attachment, aversion and ignorance arise time and again. If we learn to see the events of our life as conditioned elements, right understanding will develop. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 37086 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: vipaka in the kitchen. Htoo. Nina: Dear Htoo, Thank you for your sympathetic post. > op 26-09-2004 16:48 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > I know. Only arahats have eradicated ...snip.. N: So, it is like a step forward and then backward again, ups and downs. >H: I think, here practice will help. In which way it helps? Defilements become thiner and thiner even though there may be a large bulk inside of us. The practice makes us as if we are externally free of defilements. N: Perhaps you think of jhana, but as you know, jhana is not for everybody. But there are all the other ways of kusala, the perfections, and they sure help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina:You use the word preconditioning, but, we never know what vipaka will come, what losses will come, and it depends on many conditions how we shall react. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Re-conditioning is re-assimilation of data which have already arisen. An example is a loss. There are 'loss', feeling on 'loss', reactions on the 'loss', memory of the 'loss' and knowledge of the 'loss'. 'Loss' has arisen. This cannot be undone. Re-conditioning cannot make anything on the 'loss' which has happened. But re-conditioning can influence on feeling, memory, reactions. So later knowledge on the same event becomes acceptable as it has been re-conditioned. Pre-conditioning on the otherhand do not think of any vipaka. We have conditions and existence right now. They are checked and unnecessary components are removed ( by arahats ). As preconditioned well beforehand, there will not be any bad reactions at all. But vipaka is vipaka and this vatta cannot be pre-conditioned. Kilesa vatta is modified by arahatta magga nana. Kamma vatta is also modified by kamma cetana in arahatta magga citta. Still vipaka vatta is there without any modification. This vatta will stop rotating at the end of cuti citta of arahats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: Since it is all anatta. How could we be prepared for the future? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is the best way to stop the future. To stop the future is to be in the state of timeless. Nibbana is timeless. We should approach to Nibbana. The door to Nibbana is cuti citta of arahats. So the first thing to obtained is arahatta magga nana. Again this state is the highest mental states. As there are many kilesas through out our samsara, these kilesas cannot be washed away with a single cup of water. They have to washed several time. Four stages of enlightenment are all higher mantal states. There also is an approaching path to these state. We all know that there are siila, samaadhi, and pannaa. Pannaa exists in different forms. We have to study dhamma repeatedly through all possible way. That is why I am posting persistently. This is a form of study. When I write, I have to think, have to read, have to discuss, have to ask. All these add pannaa. From exchange of knowledge and understanding, we gain further and pannaa become accumulated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: A Question: The worldly conditions are gain and loss, honour and dishonour,etc. and here the Buddha speaks by way of conventional truth, situations in life. If I have a heart-piercing loss, the loss of a dear one, how can we see here the paramattha dhammas which are moments of vipaakacittas? Is it through eyes, through ears? It is hard to analyse here the situation. I think that is why Larry said that vipaaka is a concept. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'Heart-piercing loss'. Yes. This is a hard situation. I understand. If not well learned, such loss may even cause apnoea or breathing stop. If there is no one to support nearby, then this might lead to the death of the second. So say heart-breaking death. This is a manifestation of dosa kilesa. An example. Someone sees the death of her nearest relative right in front of her. And this is totally unexpected event. What would happen to her. She sees and then falls to the ground and death. From the observers, it takes just seconds. 'O! Mom! Gosh! Boom!! But there happen many many countless cittas. If I say these, it would sound like regurgitating theory again. But there arise seeing, hering, thinking, feeling unacceptableness, arising of dosa, upayasa and death. Actually kilesas kill her. If she does not want to die, she has to kill kilesas first. If kilesas are cleared and eradicated, even own incoming death will not cause any fire that will burn up. That is the fire of dosa. Upanisa sutta takes through different process starts from ignorance to nibbana. At least we are in the stage of confidence or saddha. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37087 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dear Htoo (1)Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, op 29-09-2004 18:23 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: >This is difficult to answer. But what I have read was that when >sotappatti magga nana has been achieved, sotapatti phala samapatti >can be done. >So the answer to your question 'Is this correct?' is to be >honest 'don't know' from me but I think I read it in a dhamma book >which might be a commentary. N: According to Visudhimagga and other Co, when an ariyan has developed jhana and attains enlightenment, magga-citta and phala- cittas arise, and after some preparation he canlater on experience as often as he wants nibbaana with phalacittas which arise again and again. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Nina. But you said 'when an ariyan has developed jhana and attains enlightenment..'. Is this jhana rupavacara rupa jhana or arupavacara arupa jhana or lokuttara appana jhana? My understanding is that those who never attain rupavacara rupa jhana can still attain lokuttara kusala cittas and lokuttara vipaka cittas without any rupavacara rupa jhana or arupavacara arupa jhana. These ariyans can stay in phala samapatti of their respective lokuttara vipaka cittas which are the only vipaka cittas that serve as javana cittas because of the power of the arammana which is nibbana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37088 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 077 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 7 universal mental factors. Phassa or contact, vedana or feeling, cetana or volition, sanna or perception, ekaggata or one- pointedness, jivitindriya or mental life, and manasikara or attention. The first five cetasikas have been discussed in the previous posts. Jivitindriya is a cetasika. It is mental life. It is not a citta. But it accompanies a citta. Any citta has jivitindriya as its accompanying cetasika. Without this cetasika, citta the king cannot survive. And without this jivitindriya cetasika, citta will never arise. Jivitindriya is a life faculty. It is a life. It support the citta to live on his own. This cetasika also support other associated cetasikas with his life faculties. Without jivitindriya, these cetasikas cannot also arise. Actually these nama dhamma cetasikas are difficult to understand. They always co-exist when in a citta. These cetasikas and citta are inseparable. They are like milk. In milk there are water component, protein components, salt components, vitamin components and many other unrecognized particles. But they cannot be separable as milk. Like this citta and cetasikas including jivitindriya cetasika are not separable. This is the nature. This relation between and among nama dhammas is called sampayutta paccaya. Even though they cannot be separated, jivitindriya does it job. That is the job of supporting citta and associated cetasikas with life faculties. As it has its own characteristic and it does its own job or function, it is worthy to study this cetasika. Jivitindriya exists in all kind of citta. At patisandhi, it arises together with patisandhi citta and support patisandhi citta along with sampayutta dhamma other cetasikas. Jivitindriya cetasika also supports bhavanga cittas. Because of this cetasika, bhavanga cittas have life and they serve as life continuum when there are no other vithi cittas arise. Again at cuti, jivitindriya cetasika also arises with cuti citta and this is the last jivitindriya cetasika in that whole life and its job has done. It dies out and there is no more life. All kammaja rupa, cittaja rupa and aharaja rupa die out with this jivitindriya cetasika death while cuti citta passes away. While vithi cittas arise, again jivitindriya cetasika arises with each of these vithi cittas and it supports them as life faculties. Panca dvara avajjana citta is a vithi citta which is a non-javana kiriya citta. This citta is the first citta in any series of panca vinnana vithi vara. It is supported by jivitindriya as life faculties. Each of all panca vinnana cittas are supported by their co-arising jivitindriya cetasikas. All sampaticchana cittas whether akusala or kusala, all santirana citta whether akusala or kusala/ upekkha or somanassa, are supported by this cetasika jivitindriya without which they cannot arise at all. The most important citta among 89 cittas is mano dvara avajjana citta. This citta can do many things. It can take any object unlike other cittas who do have at least limitations. This citta mano dvara avajjana citta is also supported by jivitindriya cetasika and without its support, mano dvara avajjana citta will never arise. There are different javana cittas which mostly create kamma. These javana cittas are also supported by jivitindriya cetasika. Except kiriya javana cittas, all other javana cittas create kamma while they arise. All akusala cittas are supported by jivitindriya. All kusala cittas are supported by jivitindriya. Kusala cittas here comprise kamavacara kusala cittas, rupavacara kusala cittas which are rupa jhanas, and arupavacara kusala cittas which are arupa jhanas. There are 8 lokuttara cittas. All these 8 lokuttara cittas are also supported by jivitindriya cetasika. While these 8 lokuttara cittas are viewing nibbana as their object, jivitindriya cetasika support them so that they can see nibbana. Jivitindriya is life. Without jivitindriya, there will be no life. If there is no life nothing will have essence and we all do not need to learn anything. But as there are jivitindriya everywhere, we do need to learn what jivitindriya and its function. Through this, we can follow the liberation path. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37089 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:31am Subject: : 'Cetasikas' study corner19- doorway-Nina Dear Nina, thank you and yes I understand a little more. I remember asking a similar q. a long time ago and I can't even remember the answer. No more queries at the moment, I'll have a think on this one for a while. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > op 28-09-2004 03:08 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > > A: this sentence puzzles me. The fact that the citta needs a > > physical base in the nama/rupa realms is clear to me, but this dvara > > is a mystery! > N: Doorway is just the means through which citta can know an object. Mat > explained about this. We should not think of door in a litteral sense. But a > dhamma, a rupa functions as doorway. > S: The > >> cittas which arise in the mind-door process also have as their > > vatthu the > >> 'heart-base'. > > > > A: ...so what is/are their dvara? I guess I don't know what dvara is? > N: The last citta arising before the mind-door process starts, which is the > bhavangacitta. Thus, the mind-door is nama. > Is there anything you find unclear? > dvaara: gate or entrance. Process of cittas: viithi: a road or path way. The > way they go. They proceed or occur, in Pali: pavattati. These are all words > to help you to understand the processes of cittas which experioence an > object through a doorway. The object reaches the citta as it were through a > doorway. This is all figurative. > Nina. 37090 From: Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the ocean of concepts. Hi, Nina & Larry - Larry, Nina quotes you on the following: "We usually say that consciousness cognizes rupa. What does this mean? In Indian philosophy there is the metaphor of a crystal placed on a piece of coloured cloth. The crystal takes on the colour of the cloth. Similarly when consciousness cognizes red it becomes red." I think the metaphor is not a good one - it is substantialist. It presents consciousness as something existing and waiting, then cognizing red by "becoming red", like a crystal becomes red when placed on a red cloth. Consciousness, in this view, is a like an already existing substance that becomes infused by redness. It is better to think of consciousness, I believe either as an operation of encountering red as red arises, the two mutually arising, or to think of it as the experiential presence of red, than to think of the consciousness as already "there" and becoming transformed. The thing is: How we think about a matter, the metaphors we use, affect our views and condition predispositions. A substantialist metaphor lends itself to atta-view, I believe. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/30/04 5:50:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Larry, > just butting in. > op 30-09-2004 01:43 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > . We > >usually say that consciousness cognizes rupa. What does this mean? In > >Indian philosophy there is the metaphor of a crystal placed on a piece > >of coloured cloth. The crystal takes on the colour of the cloth. > >Similarly when consciousness cognizes red it becomes red. > N: You explained that very well, I know what you mean. Indian philosophy. > I learnt many languages, this opened the gate for me to understand many > cultures, religions, that was our kind of life in the diplomatic service. I > studied some philosophies, but not thoroughly like Howard. I have the > deepest respect for all religions, and I like to listen, I am sincerely > interested. > But my life is too short. You have studied the Abhidhamma, but in order to > profit to the full we have to ask ourselves a few questions. You study > Nagarjuna (we see a lot of remnants of him in Nalanda where we go, very > interesting), and other Mahayana branches, but it is good to ask ourselves: > does it help me in daily life? You find that the red colour is > consciousness, but does this lead to detachment? Does it lead to the > weakening of defilements? > I am truly confronted now with old age, sickness and death. I have to meet > difficult situations, the loss of dear ones, unkind people, disappointments, > my own faults and vices that cause trouble. We sincerely have to consider > our practice in daily life, that is what matters. The Abhidhamma helps us to > know in a more detailed way what hinders the practice of the brahma viharas, > of metta and compassion when I am with other people. And we are confronted > with people all the time. When there is the loss of a dear one, we are sad. > But it is actually our clinging to our own pleasant feeling we derived from > his company, pure selfishness causes sadness. Just selfishness that creeps > in all the time. When I develop metta and karuna, what is in the way? My own > selfishness I mistakenly take for metta. I expect too much from others, and > this means I need the Brahmavihara of equanimity. But we have to know our > own cittas. The Abhidhamma is of great benefit to have more understanding of > daily life right now. Understanding leads to detachment. I am thinking of > this with the study of the Vis. It can and should help us with the practice. > It is not an intellectual exercise. > We can profit from the suttas with the understanding of the Abhidhamma. The > suttas help us in our daily practice. They go straight to the heart. Larry, > do not get drowned in the ocean of concepts, return to the suttas with their > very direct language, and many practical counsels. > Nina. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37091 From: Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence Hi, Larry - Yet a couple more thoughts: Impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not-self, are nominalized terms for certain relations, I think. Impermanence for the relation between an earlier mindstate and a later one of a particular feature being present in the earlier, and be absent in the later. Unsatisfactoriness for the relation between dhammas and mindstates of not satisfying. Not-self for the relation of conditionality. These relations are realities, though not of the same sort as the paramattha dhammas related by them. For non-arahants, certainly for worldlings, they are known only conceptually, by inference. For higher ariyans, I would suspect they are know directly, by means of pa~n~na With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37092 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:49am Subject: Perfections - introduction pt. 2 Hello all From Nina's "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" available at http://abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm "During this pilgrimage we discussed the Buddha's perfections in relation to our lives. We have accumulated many kinds of defilements during countless lives and thus there are conditions for the arising of unwholesomeness, akusala, time and again. Because of our defilements we do not have enough strength to walk the Path the Buddha taught and therefore we need to accumulate all kinds of wholesome qualities which can support us whole we develop right understanding of realities. We are not destined to become a Sammasambuddha, but if we develop the perfections along with satipatthana there are conditions to attain enlightenment, one day, during one life, we do not know when. When we develop the perfections we should not expect any gain for ourselves, our goal should be the eradication of defilements. If this is not our goal dana, sila and the other wholesome qualities are not perfections leading to enlightenment." 37093 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dear Htoo (1)Htoo. Dear Htoo, If you have any spare time, you may find it useful/interesting to look at these past messages from Useful Posts: Fruition Attainment (phala-samaapatti) & Pleasant Abiding (sukha-vihaara) 18141, 18204, 18317, 18453, 18583, 23999, 24069 Let us know if you have any comments on any of them too. (I think they are mostly Nina's translations and additional notes on a series from the Foundation in Bangkok). Metta, Sarah ====== 37094 From: dighanakha Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:14am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Sarah. S> One more question. Where does it say --in this Jataka S> (536)or elsewhere-- that the previous lives related by S> Kunala refer to other lives *as* the Bodhisatta? S> For example, it says 'Then the Great Being, with the S> knowledge of one who remembers his former births, making S> Punnamukha a personal witness, related a circumstance seen S> *in a former existence*.......' S> Also for other past lives told by Kunala (or in other tales S> within Bodhisatta tales), I'm not sure the 'characters' S> would appear in a list of previous lives as Bodhisatta, S> would they? I'm afraid I have no idea what the official position is here. I had supposed that any former birth story taught to exemplify some point would be a former birth of the Bodhisatta as a Bodhisatta, and not of him in the days before he obtained abhinihaara. But I could well be mistaken. I cannot actually recall any statement asserting either to be the case. Nor can I think of any Pali phrase to search for that would be likely to yield an answer. It's the sort of question for which one needs one of those Burmese Tipitaka memorizers. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 37095 From: dighanakha Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:17am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Robert, R> (I think you doubt even suttanta such as Jataka?). I do not doubt that the Jatakas and their commentary were approved by the sangha in 5th century Anuradhapura. I do not doubt that some of them contain some good Dhamma. And I do not doubt that others contain tawdry nonsense. So it would appear I have no doubts at all about the Jataka. :-) R> But you do seem to trust the Nikayas. I trust that the first four Nikayas, together with the Agamas (in Sanskrit fragments and Chinese translation) give us the best account we can hope for of how the Dhamma was understood by the early Indian sangha. I trust that some of them may report the Buddha's actual words, or something close to them. But more importantly than this, I trust that they can be accounted as the Buddha-word in the sense of the Uttara maxim: "Whatsoever is well-spoken, all that is the word of the Blessed One ..." (ya.m ki~nci subhaasita.m sabba.m ta.m tassa bhagavato vacana.m arahato sammasambuddhassa -- A iv 162-6) A well-spoken utterance is one that leads to wanting little, contentment, seclusion, aloofness from society, arousing energy, virtue, concentration, wisdom, liberation, and knowledge and vision of liberation. By these criteria I trust that the Nikayas are "well-spoken" and therefore the Buddha-word. R> Christine recently posted some sutta extracts from the R> Anguttara Nikaya: R> What is your opinion of these quotes? The first is a statement in which a certain foolish woman is described as 'foolish'. The second is a rather neutral statement about women in general. The third is a deprecatory statement about women in general, but of a relatively tame character, especially when set alongside the Kunala. R> And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda R> about Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with R> just a woman's wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) If Migasala was foolish there's nothing wrong with saying so, if one does it at the right time, with mettacitta, and in circumstances that would make it a useful thing to point out. The phrase "with just a woman's wit" seems a doubtful translation to me, though the passage is difficult since there are three variant readings: ammakapa~n~naa: "with old womanish/granny-like understanding". andhakapa~n~naa: "with dim understanding", "with the understanding of the blind"; "with the understanding of an Andhakan" ambakapa~n~naa: with inferior understanding R> 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" "A man, O R> brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her R> mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and R> her ideal is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) In the Sa.myoga Sutta (A. iv 58-59) the Buddha speaks of the "woman who has gone beyond her womanhood" (itthii itthattam ativattati) and the "man who has gone beyond his manhood" (puriso purisattam ativattati), in each case by not attending to it (na manasikaroti), not attaching to it (na rajjati) and not delighting in it (n'abhiramati). As for the passage above, I think the "woman's aim" described is probably typical of a woman who has found no higher aim in life than this, or who lives in a society that permits her nothing higher; in other words, a woman who has *not* "gone beyond her womanhood." But the behaviour described is not exactly vicious, is it? I mean wanting to boss your husband about isn't quite the same as wanting to cut his throat and drink his blood (à la Kunala Cuckoo). R> "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. R> What five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and R> betrays friends. Even so, monks, there are these five R> disadvantages in a woman. What five? She is unclean, R> evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. These are R> the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) R> Even in the DighaNikaya there are some suttas that us R> moderns may not easily understand. take the Aganna sutta: In my opinion, moderns actually understand the Aganna Sutta much better than the commentators did. In a line-by-line comparison Richard Gombrich has shown beyond any reasonable doubt that the Sutta is a lively and ingenious parody of the Rig Veda's Hymn of Creation and the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. Its account of anthropogenesis pokes fun at the speculative excesses of the brahmins, as well as serving as an allegory of how craving begets dukkha. Everything in the brahminical scheme is reproduced in the Aganna, but turned upside down. For example, in the brahminical scheme there is darkness in the beginning but then the gods of the sun and moon are created and will provide light on condition that brahmins not neglect to offer them sacrifices and chant mantras (which keep the sun and moon working). But in the Buddha's scheme the sun and moon are an inferior replacement that arise when the gods lose their self-luminosity; they follow their own laws and no brahmins are needed to chant mantras and keep them going. To appreciate the parody properly one needs to read both the brahmin and the Buddhist text in their original languages as the humour involves a lot of punning. But if you don't fancy learning Vedic Sanskrit, the next best thing is Gombrich's article, "The Buddha's Book of Genesis?" -- Indo-Iranian Journal 35, pp. 159-178, which you should be able to find in the library of any Japanese university that has a good indology department. There is also a briefer discussion in his book "How Buddhism Began: the conditioned genesis of the early teachings (Athlone Press 1996). Buddhaghosa, unfortunately, saw neither the joke nor the allegory of the Aganna Sutta, took the whole thing literally, and left the Theravada tradition saddled with a creation story so laughable it makes the creationism of Christian fundamentalists seem like sound science. R> One I have problems with is somewhere where either the R> Buddha or a commentary talked about Rahu and the moon eating R> the sun or something during an eclipse. Right. These are the Suriya and Candima Suttas, somewhere in the first part of the SN. I might be able to help you with your problems. But it will have to wait until the third and final part of my reply. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 37096 From: dighanakha Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:21am Subject: Re: Dighanakha Sutta, MN74 Hello Sarah. Thanks for taking the time to post this long discussion of the Sutta. S> Here is your four line signature sign off which had me S> rather puzzled: S> "The view of those ascetics and brahmins who are of this S> persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me' S> is close to non-attachment, close to non-bondage, close to S> non-delighting, close to non-cleaving, close to S> non-grasping". (Dighanakha Sutta) S> The Nanamoli/Bodhi translation gives a note about the S> commentary explanation of DighanakhaÕs view (Ônothing is S> acceptable to meÕ or as you translate 'everything is not S> pleasing to me'), saying it is an annihilationist S> (ucchedavaadin) view and that it Ôexplains this assertion to S> mean: ÔNo [mode of] rebirth is acceptable to meÕ. S> I see no reason at all not to accept the commentary S> interpretation, I wouldn't expect you to. :-) S> though B.Bodhi adds his own further interpretation that S> Dighanakha is a 'radical sceptic of the class satirically S> characterised at MN 76.30 as 'eel-wrigglers'!. Yes, I think this is rather more plausible than the commentator's view. The MaCs have a habit of heavy-handedly glossing all sorts of binary pairs in the Suttas as being synonymous with ucchedavada and sassatavada, no matter how far-fetched this equation may be. We had an example on this list last week, with the atthita / natthita binary of the Kaccayana Sutta. The Dighanakha Sutta is yet another case. Had Dighanakha wanted to say that "no mode of rebirth was acceptable" to him, there are plenty of ways he could have done it without resorting to something as oblique as 'everything is not pleasing to me' (sabba.m me na khamati). But a fuller discussion of this sutta must await a later post. S> When the Buddha questions whether the view itself is S> acceptable to Dighanakha (called Aggivessana by him), the S> latter agrees it Ôwould be the sameÕ. More notes from the S> commentary as paraphrased say: Ôthe Buddha suggests, by his S> question, that DighankakhaÕs assertion involves an inherent S> contradiction, for he cannot reject everything without also S> rejecting his own view, and this would entail the opposite S> position, namely that something is acceptable to him. S> However, though Dighankha recognises the implication of the S> BuddhaÕs question, he continues to insist on his view that S> nothing is acceptable to him.Õ S> S> As the notes also point out, having clearly identified the S> view above with ÔannihilationismÕ, Ôannihilationism is close S> to non-lust,etc, because, though involving a wrong S> conception of self, it leads to disenchantment with S> existence.Õ S> S> B.Bodhi again suggests that Ômost sceptics, while professing S> a rejection of all views, surreptitiously adopt some S> definite view, while a few abandon their scepticism to seek S> a path to personal knowledge.Õ He also suggests that Ôif S> [this view] is understood as radical scepticism, it could S> also be seen as close to non-lust in that it expresses S> disillusionment with the attempt to buttress the attachment S> to existence with a theoretical foundation and thus S> represents a tentative, though mistaken, step in the S> direction of dispassion.Õ S> S> Hmm, interesting. What are your comments on these comments? Here also I think it is Bodhi who is on the right track. And he phrases it very well. S> It may be a little simpler for those of us who just follow S> the ancient commentary with confidence in its value;-). Sure, the MaCs often make things simpler, and in the process blur over subtle but important distinctions. Some good Dhamma gets lost in the process. S> ÒA wise man among those recluses and brahmins who holds the S> doctrine and view ÔNothing is acceptable to meÕ considers S> thus: ÔIf I obstinately adhere to my view ÔNothing is S> acceptable to meÕ and declare: ÔOnly this is true, anything S> else is wrong,Õ then I may clash with the two others: with a S> recluse or brahmin who holds the doctrine and view S> ÔEverything is acceptable to meÕ and with a recluse or S> brhamin who holds the doctrine and view Ôsomething is S> acceptable to me, something is not acceptable to me.Õ [i.e S> eternalist and partial eternalist views accord. to the S> comy]. S> So, ÔForeseeing for himself clashes, disputes, quarrels, and S> vexation, he abandons that view and does not take up some S> other view.Õ S> At this point, D., IÕm rather perplexed. Usually people use S> a signature line or lines because they include useful S> reminders or a particular message. I assume that by S> identifying with these lines and the name too, that you see S> value in this particular view. Is this right? Surely, we are S> none of us interested in views that just lead to clashes, S> disputes etc? Sarah, please re-read what you typed above. Dighanakha's view leads to clashes, disputes etc. *when obstinately adhered to*. Now go back to the first page of the Sutta and read the final paragraph. When the view espoused by Dighanakha is not obstinately adhered to, the Buddha describes it as: asaaraagaaya santike - close to non-attachment asa--ogaaya santike - close to non-fetteredness anabhinandanaaya santike - close to non-delighting anajjhosaanaaya santike - close to non-cleaving anupaadaanaaya santike - close to non-grasping Naturally Dighanakha is pleased to hear this ("Master Gotama commends my point of view..."), but then the Buddha adds the qualification that you have cited above. S> How does Dighanakha abandon his wrong view in the sutta? He S> listens to the BuddhaÕs teaching about how the body S> consists of impermanent elements only, which are not self. S> ÒIt should be regarded as impermanent, as suffering, as a S> disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as a calmity, as an S> affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not S> self. when one regards this body thus, one abandons desire S> for the body, affection for the body, subservience to the S> body.Ó S> Feelings too are Ôimpermanent, conditioned, dependently S> arisen, subject to destruction, vanishing, fading away, and S> ceasing.Õ Only one feeling arises as a time, experiences its S> object and falls away. S> By understanding the nature of these realities for what they S> are, there is dispassion and the well-taught noble disciple S> becomes liberated. S> ÒA bhikkhu whose mind is liberated thus, Aggivessana, sides S> with none and disputes with none; he employs the speech S> currently used in the world without adhering to it.Ó S> Now you mentioned in one of your posts that Ôit is only from S> the commentators that we get the idea that the BuddhaÕs S> Dhamma has to do with paramatha dhammas and citta-khanas. S> These terms are not found in the Tipitaka......Õ S> Whilst IÕm sure youÕre right about the actual terms (for S> dhammas/ultimate realities and momentary cittas), we can see S> that even in this sutta of your choice presumably, that: S> a) Dighanakha becomes a sotapanna (and Sariputta an arahant) S> whilst listening to the Buddha explain the danger of wrong S> views and the impermanence and so on of elements, of S> dhammas, which are conditioned and devoid of self. S> b) Quoting again from the sutta, Ôhe employs the speech S> currently used in the world without adhering to itÕ. This S> means we shouldnÕt get hung up on the language or S> terminology thatÕs used as I understand it. I quite agree. And would you agree that it follows from this that we should not suppose the Buddha was telling Dighanakha to go chasing after *language-based* physical and psychical atoms called 'paramattha dhammas'? Would you agree that the fact that the Buddha referred to feeling as 'vedanaa' is because that is what feeling happens to be called in the language shared by him and Dighanakha? Or would you hold with the commentators that vedanaa is the ultimate name for feeling in every state of existence, in every world system, and that it forms the sabhava of feeling, and needs to be known if the reality of feeling is to be seen as it really is? S> Let us hope we all learn to become ÔindependentÕ by S> penetrating Ôall conditioned states as subject to arising S> and cessationÕ and relinquishing any wrong views that our S> worlds consist of anything other than paramatha dhammas or S> impermanent elements without self or core. "Without self or core", but with a real and eternal name in the dialect of Magadha? _______________________________ [from another thread] Hello Christine. Ch> (Interesting I.D. - being the name of the one who attained Ch> Stream Entry at the same time and from the teaching of the Ch> same sutta which conditioned in the Great Disciple Sariputta Ch> the attainment of Arahatship.) Yes, the MaCs say he was Sariputta's errant nephew. Ch> You may be interested - or not - in previous discussions Ch> surrounding 'Negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings Ch> about women' from the Anguttara Nikaya - a little harder to Ch> set aside than the Jatakas .... Ch> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19461 Thanks for the references. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 37097 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dear Htoo (1)Htoo. Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. I have noted those numbers. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > If you have any spare time,..snip.. > > Fruition Attainment (phala-samaapatti) & Pleasant Abiding (sukha- vihaara) > 18141, 18204, 18317, 18453, 18583, 23999, 24069 (I think they are > mostly Nina's translations and additional notes on a series from the > Foundation in Bangkok). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 37098 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Foundation Bulletin, translated from Thai. Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1 Fruition Attainment, Phala-samåpatti Issue of analysis: Can the ariyan who has not attained jhåna enter fruition attainment, phala-samåpatti? (1 The conclusion regarding the issue of analysis: The ariyan who has not attained jhåna is not able to enter fruition attainment. The sources which support the conclusion of this issue: 1. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Ch 1, § 9, Mahånåma. 2. Middle Length Sayings I, 44, Lesser Discourse of ...snip...snip..snip > abiding different from the ³peaceful abiding², arana vihåra, which is > fruition-attainment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and Nina, Thanks Sarah for your kind suggestion and Nina for her kind effort in writing up this message. The old message was snipped nearly all as all have read in their past. Regarding samapatti, I am still thinking non-jhanalabhi sotapam, sakadagam, and anagam can stay in phala samapatti. I hope Nina will repeat them here. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37099 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 4 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Nina: Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 4 The Commentary (of the Path of Discrimination) to the Chapter on ³Attainment of Cessation² (Nirodha Samåpatti, Ch XXXIV) explains three classifications of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna: ³There are three kinds of insight knowledge: ..snip.. For the latter two attainments it is necessary to be able to attain jhåna which is in conformity with those attainments.² 4. Lokuttara cittas have been classified by way of ..snip.. of the five jhånas 11. The reason for this is that there are two kinds of ariyans: the ariyan who has lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhåna factors(of the different stages of jhåna) and who can therefore enter fruition-attainment, and the ariyan who has lokuttara cittas unaccompanied by jhåna factors and who can therefore not enter fruition-attainment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Lokuttara cittas are accompanied by 7 bojjhanga dhammas. There are vitakka, piti, ekaggata, upekkha. Vitakka arises in the form of samma- sankappa. Piti arises in the form of piti-sambojjhanga. Ekaggata and upekkha arise in the forms of ekaggata-sambojjhanga and upekkha- sambojjhanga. I am still wondering sotapams should be able to stay in sotapatti phala samapatti. They do not have rupavacara jhana. But they have attained lokuttara appana jhana whcih is sotapatti magga citta. In case of rupa jhana all jhana citta arise only once when they are for the first time. But at later time, they arise without limitation and they arise countlessly without any intervening other citta. But in case of sotapatti magga citta, it arises only once. After cessation of sotapatti magga vithi, there follow other vithi vara. At an unspecified time, sotapatti magga equivalent cittas can arise. But as magga cittas never arise twice, the equivalent cittas are its resultant citta phala cittas. Again there is no lokuttara kiriya citta. This is also because magga cittas all arise once. When sotapatti magga appana citta has arisen, later phala cittas should be accessible for all those who have registered as sotapam. They have won the stream to nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: In what way is the ariyan who is a person with ³dry insight², sukkha vipassaka (without jhåna attainment), different from the ariyan who is able to attain jhåna, who is jhåna-låbhí (låbhí : possessing)? If the ariyan whois without jhåna attainment could enter fruition- attainment, he would be the same as the ariyan who is able to attain jhåna. There must be a difference between the ariyan with dry insight and the ariyan with jhåna attainment,who is jhåna låbhí. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, I personally think, there should not be any discrimination between ariyas. I think, the difference is jhana power abhinnas. Those who do not attain rupa jhanas and arupa jhanas will not try to obtain abhinna after arahathood. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37100 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:15am Subject: Re: A Pleasant Abiding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: ..snip..snip..snip.. Fruition attainment, phala-samåpatti, has been explained in the `Visuddhimagga', Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot). The text (Vis. XXIII, 6,7) stating: `All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment' can be misunderstood when we do not know the context." ****** Hope this helps a little, Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I told Nina, sotapams, sakadagams, anagams, and arahats who are ariyas have attained their respective magga nana. They have been registered as sotapams, sakadagams, anagams, and arahats. They should all be able to attain phala samapatti. They have attained lokuttara appana. :-) I hope this will be able to explain when sotapatti magga, sakadagami magga are attained without rupavacara rupa jhana and arupavacara arupa jhana cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37101 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:27am Subject: Re: Dear Htoo (1) About Rupa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Sarah: Btw, Joop, you may like to read Nina's book on `Rupas' when you have time and also to post/discuss any sections which you have problems with). Joop: Thanks Sarah, I've already read it and I'm doing it again now. But the problems I have are partly the result of the comparison of the theory of rupa in the Abhidhamma and the theory of physics, for example particle physics, quantum physics, string-theory and big-bang- theory. That's why asked many times (to RobM and Htoo) if "rupa" had to be translated with "matter" and the theory of rupa is an ontology; or that it had to be translated with "experienced material qualities" because the theory of matter in a phenomenology. If it is an ontology than I don't agree with it because than I prefer the theories of physics, in that situation the theory of rupa is just an outdated pre-scientific Indian theory of 2500 years ago. (The theories of physics are purely mathematical theories so the objects of it don't have a "self"!) But I'm sure it is a phenomenology and my question is: what are the consequencies of that point of view ? That also the reason I like the recent discussion about "cause of impermanence" to what I had a little contribution too (#36995). It's not so difficult to imagine that 'thoughts" are volatile, but it's difficult to imagine that materiality is (and why 17 times slower than nama?). What I also don't understand is why (also in the ebook of Nina) "bhutani" is translated by "elements" ? C.A.F. Rhys Davids translates it in the Dhamma-sangani with "phenomena", literally "the-things-that-have-become". She doesn't use the term "phenomenology" but "Sensationalism"! (Introductory Essay, page lv) Metta Joop 37102 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:43am Subject: Re: Deeds of Merit - importance of samatha Hey Phil, W. : One needs to study this subject in great detail, and, moreover, jhaana can only temporarily subdue defilements. Therefore, I prefer to develop insight, vipassanaa. Vipassanaa can eradicate defilements completely, so that they never arise again. S. : It is still necessary to discuss samatha bhaavanaa, because we should know the difference between the level of bhaavanaa which is the temporary subduing of defilements by calm and the level which is the complete eradication of defilements. My sources say that Sujin teaches a mixture of samatha and vipassana type meditation. This quote seems to confirm this. I mean, how can she know this above? Ph: K Sujin asks "Do you wish to develop samatha to the degree of jhanaa?" PH: In my case, the answer is I wish I could. I hope conditions arise which allow me to develop jhanas some day, or in some lifetime. I have faith that they will because I have a feeling that they are necessary in the higher/later stages of enlightenment. K Sujin and Nina and others' at DSG teach that there is Right Concentration with every citta, in the one-pointedness of that universal cetasika that is often translated as concentration - I forget it's name at the moment. I have trouble accepting this as the form of Right Concentration the Buddha teaches. Ditto Ph> Surely there is concentration, but it seems to this beginner that concentration to the degree of jhanas is where Right Concentration lies. There are so many suttas that point to that. I agree Ph> That being said, I also am skeptical about how many people have the conditions to develop jhanas, and I suspect that there is a lot of false jhanifying going on out there. It is for each to find out for themself. I would not worry about others attainments etc. Ph> People who decide to develop jhanas because they know that if they don't they won't get the full benefits of the Buddha's teaching. There is self seeking benefits, I'm sure, a lot of the time. OK Phil, I touched on this with Sukin. There are Right Aspirations that can come from 'self'. If the conceit 'I Am' is not eradicated till Arahantship, then EVERYONE before that operates from 'self'. There is either good kamma or bad kamma at this stage. Wanting (chanda) good things (jhana) at this stage is a wholesome desire. PH> In any case, vipassana in daily life is a noble way and will condition access to jhanas in the future. I have faith in that. Great but they are not mutually exclusive pursuits. PH> On that note, I found this from Nina's first post in the Removal of Distracting Thoughts series: >Co: The kusala citta arising with the ten bases of wholesomeness is not higher citta, adhicitta. The citta with the eight attainments that is based on vipassana is higher than that, it is the higher citta. >N: the eight attainments in jhana. B.B. speaks about vipassana based on jhana, but it is the opposite in this case: here it is jhana based on vipassana. Also PTS footnote gives: the eight attainments based on vipassana. Only then the citta is pure, higher citta, because one does not take jhana for self. PH: Does this mean that jhana can be conditioned by vipassana as I was hoping above? They go hand in hand. As experience gets progressively more subtle (jhana), insight goes along seeing that there is no place for the 'I' to land. This subtle 'I sense' must be seen and eradicated with insight. PH: The reason I have trouble sitting now is that I clearly sense self behind it. Fine, sit with that. Learn about that and then try and deconstruct that sense of self in whatever fashion you find it. PH> When I have cultivated vipassana in daily life as a practitioner of "dry insight", this will help me to be liberated from self enough to seek jhanas? Not liberated from self to the point of sotapanna - but self view weakened enough to sit without self seeking jhanas? Should I read it that way? I dont think so. Again, there are wholesome aspirations that can still be developed with 'self'. They will help to weaken and undermine that self sense. In a way you are using self to dismantle self. Sort of getting the pot to boil and then your 'self' becomes the lobster. Here is some good info from Thanisaro on meditation in general. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/index.html Check out: Basic Breath Meditation De-perception Emptiness A Guided Meditation One Tool Among Many:The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice THe Path of Concentration and Mindfulness Hope it helps! PEACE E 37103 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:46am Subject: Re: OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hi Andrew > > > So you admit the perfections can be developed intentionally. That's > >the whole point. > > Well, of course you *can* choose to try to develop them, but I think > you'll find it much more deeply encouraging to find them arising naturally > in your daily life. That's the way I feel about metta, though as we know > an intentional practice of metta meditation is very popular amoungst > Buddhists. When metta arises in daily life, not because I intentionally > conditioned > it that morning by meditating on it. Well for example every once in a blue moon energetic meditation will come to me, I will be filled with more energy than I know what to do with. At this point I either turn to dhammapada's 'seeker' section which tells me to meditate constantly, or look at the perfections to say, develop a mind of good will (which is the instruction for what a noble disciple should do in certain cases, it can clearly be developed), and get two in one shot. Basically the causes and conditions are necessary but we can cultivate these causes and conditions all the same. > >Now to me the question is just how much of them is > >needed to see the Noble Truths and realize unbinding. That's what > >it's all about, right? Honestly, I think I've got a decent shot at > >it in this very lifetime. > > Ph: Well, they're all needed, fully and completely. That's why they're > called "Perfections!" (I assume that this is a good translation of the > Pali paramis - it's certainly the word that is always used in English) I take it to mean each one should be a perfection in and of itself, but that doesn't mean they're all necessary for enlightenment. For Buddhahood, yes, all the perfections, but I don't know that we need every one of them to see the noble truths - my experience indicates that it's in fact not necessary. > Yes, I think we've all got a shot at it in this very lifetime. > Just being born human at a time when the Buddha's teachings are in the world > is very encouraging. But I have a hunch that intending to make it happen in > this lifetime dooms us to becoming more tightly bound-up in self. If > we press ahead patiently with small moments of mindfulness we are certainly > moving towards the unbinding. We shouldn't try to predict when it will > come, > in my view. I know you are fond of the Satipatthana Sutta's promise of > "If a monk develops this for 7 years ... 7 months" and so on. That's got > you > on a timeline way of thinking. It feels dangerous to me, but I'm just a > beginner > and that Sutta's been kicking around a long, long time. I trust you've read > a > lot of commentary and/or worked with a reliable teacher > to look more deeply into what the Sutta is getting at. I think we've got more of a shot than just an off chance cause of being born in the Buddha's dispensation, in Sutta Nipata II.4, the Buddha lists in one verse, "austerity, celibacy, seeing the noble truths, realizing unbinding, this is the highest protection." Anyway, yeah I've read commentaries on the sutta but the Buddha gave us plain instructions on how non-return or arahantship, levels of sainthood, can be attained, and they don't even involve the perfections. I'm willing to give ground that they help us progress towards the fact but I will go out on a limb here and say that austerity with a single perfection, in my case, renunciation, is enough to see the noble truths. Certainly one can continue on in the next lifetime developing paramis and furthering one's spiritual practise but there's no need to believe it has to be done over many lifetimes, to say nothing of 'countless' lifetimes. This dhamma dispensation is already 50% through, give yourself another 10 lifetimes and you're probably safe but any longer than that and you're getting into muddy territory. Again, the Buddha said contemplation of the body in the body, feelings in the feelings, mind in mind (in this case I assume states of consciousness, and possibly, but not necessarily their concommittants, to be mind-in-mind), and mental objects in mental objects (including the four noble truths) is the way to enlightenment. Never have I heard him say we need to develop the perfections. They are virtues that will help along the path but I say uninterrupted mindfulness of all that is happening in one's psycho-physical complex, pratised correctly to give one necessary insights, is the way to enlightenment. > Phil a.l. 37104 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Dighanakha, --- dighanakha wrote: > I'm afraid I have no idea what the official position is here. I > had supposed that any former birth story taught to exemplify some > point would be a former birth of the Bodhisatta as a Bodhisatta, > and not of him in the days before he obtained abhinihaara. But > I could well be mistaken. I cannot actually recall any statement > asserting either to be the case. .... S: I'm only giving comments based on what I've heard, not read. I'm also not particularly familiar with the Jatakas and have forgotten many I read a long time ago. But, don't you think: a) it is stressed when it is the Bodhisatta or 'future Buddha' being referred to b) it would be rather obvious at Buddhist Councils and to those with far greater familiarity with them if there was a glaring inconsistency between say the Harita Jataka and the Kunala Jataka? c) We have approximately 540 'birth stories' of Bodhisattas (some repetition and sometimes more than one 'birth' included). If all tales of previous lives within these were included, then the number would be much larger.... d) I'm sure the official position is that there is no inconsistency and once again our ignorance blinds us to what may be a simple explanation;-). But, this is just speculation and I should rest my case here as I feel reasonably satisfied on this point which surprised me when I first read it. .... >Nor can I think of any Pali > phrase to search for that would be likely to yield an answer. > It's the sort of question for which one needs one of those > Burmese Tipitaka memorizers. ... S: Let's keep an open mind and share any further info we come across anytime. I'd like to get into a discussion on the nirutti/discrimination of language issue which you've raised several times, but: i) I have very little time before going to India and must give some priority to some behind-the-scenes tasks. ii) I'm not sure of the value in it or whether you really wish to hear any other comments iii) my understanding is very limited, so there'd be glaring holes and could just sound to you like your parody;-). Anyway, if you wish, we could start and maybe both learn a little in the process, but it's up to you. I have many other posts waiting for replies I'd like to give, including more on our other threads which I may or may not get round to. Thankyou for the feedback on the sutta comments meanwhile;-). I appreciate your comments and contributions meanwhile. Metta, Sarah ====== 37105 From: connieparker Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:23am Subject: Finding suttas Kind of a p.s. here, Phil - Should've said the Anguttara are relatively easy depending on which system is used! Who'd think that A IV 58-59 and AN VII 48 are the same thing? Have fun looking things up anyway! connie 37106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma, Htoo. Dear Sarah and Htoo, I understood that dosa-muulacittas cannot arise in the fine material planes. Correct? Nina. op 30-09-2004 11:28 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Chapter IV, page 197 - >> 205, "Detailed Explanation of Asynchronous Kamma" has a lot of >> detail on this. I haven't read it all yet, but glancing at the chart >> on page 198, I see that: >> - 11 faulty volitions exclusive of restlessness can cause rebirth in >> the four lower planes >> - 12 faulty volitions can arise during life in the sensous or the >> fine material spheres 37107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - importance of samatha Hello Phil, op 30-09-2004 05:58 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Ph: K Sujin asks "Do you wish to develop samatha to the degree of jhanaa?" > > In my case, the answer is I wish I could. I hope conditions arise which > allow me to develop jhanas some day, or in some lifetime. I have faith that > they will because I have a feeling that they are necessary in the > higher/later stages of enlightenment. N: It is not said that jhanas are necessary in the later stages of enlightenment. But it is best to consider our life now, understanding dhamma now. The first stage is already very hard. Ph: K Sujin and Nina and others' at DSG > teach that there is Right Concentration with every citta, in the > one-pointedness of that universal cetasika that is often translated as > concentration - N: There is one-pointedness, ekaggata cetasika with every citta, and it can be kusala, akusala vipaaka or kiriya. Its function is seeing to it that citta experiences only one object. Ph.... it seems to this beginner that concentration to the > degree of jhanas is where Right Concentration lies. There are so many suttas > that point to that. N:There is right concentration in jhana and also in vipassana, it is one of the Path factors. Ph:... In any case, vipassana in daily life is a noble way and will condition > access to jhanas in the future. I have faith in that. N: The aim of vipassana is the eradication of defilements. It depends on the individual whether he is inclined to jhana. > On that note, I found this from Nina's first post in the Removal of > Distracting Thoughts series: > >> Co: The kusala citta arising with the ten bases of wholesomeness is not >> higher citta, adhicitta. The citta with the eight attainments that is based >> on vipassana is higher than that, it is the higher citta. > > >> N: the eight attainments in jhana. B.B. speaks about vipassana based on >> jhana, but it is the opposite in this case: here it is jhana based on >> vipassana. Also PTS footnote gives: the eight attainments based on >> vipassana. Only then the citta is pure, higher citta, because one does not >> take jhana for self. > Ph: Does this mean that jhana can be conditioned by vipassana as I was hoping > above? N: The monk referred to was on his way to arahatship, and it was in the Buddha's time. People at that time had no misunderstandings about jhana. They also could develop jhana and use that as a foundation for vipassana. Higher citta, adhicitta:when there is right understanding and right mind-fulness there are: higher sila, higher citta and higher pañña. A. Sujin repeated this many times. Ph: The reason I have trouble sitting now is that I clearly sense self > behind it. When I have cultivated vipassana in daily life as a practitioner > of "dry insight", this will help me to be liberated from self enough to seek > jhanas? N: To what purpose? As you know right jhana is extremely difficult, many conditions have to be fulfilled. Nina. 37108 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana Journey ( 20 )Htoo. Dear Htoo, Thank you for the simile, it is clear. Nina. op 30-09-2004 11:39 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > There were many foot-prints as we walked quite a far. Our feet were > still moving left and right and left and right backwardly while > seeing the footprint in front of the eyes. > > The sand there was boundless and limitless. The foot-prints there > were boundless and limitless. The sand there can be equate with > boundless space. The footprints there can be equated with 1st arupa > jhana cittas. > > The second arupa jhana citta or vinnanaca ayatana citta sees these > footprints of mind. As patisandhi, bhavanga, cuti cittas can take > past object, I think vinnananca ayatana citta can also take past > object. > > 37109 From: Egbert Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: cause of impermanence Hi Howard, Larry, Yes, Howard, I'm sure we're on the same wavelength. And I've got some more thoughts. See below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Larry) - > > In a message dated 9/29/04 9:47:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > > > Hi Larry and Howard, > > > > Thank you for a very interesting and worthwhile discussion. I am > > wondering if it is possible that the structure of perception, any > > perception, is based on impermanence. Only that which changes is > > perceivable and perceived, so what is perceived at any time are not > > actualities, but differences in a never ending flux (with no hint of > > moments of fixed duration). > > > > The (dis)ability to take snapshots of a boiling cauldron may suggest > > steady but short-lived, identifiable states that rise and fall > > within it, but such a conclusion can only come from taking the > > snapshots as being their own reality. > > > > So e.g. hardness may appear as reality in which impermanence is not > > to be found, but when hardness is seen as a snapshot of what is in > > fact never static, the underlying reality becomes known, which is > > impermanence in which nothing, in any sense, is found. > > > > Just my musings, of course :-) > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > > ========================== > Herman, I believe that what you are saying here is has real depth to > it and is important for me to understand? I *think* I do get what you are > saying. If I do, then what I say in the next paragraph may be in agreement with it. > Please let me knoe. > As regards allegedly discrete, momentary phenomena that arise and then > cease the instant after, and during that zero-durational moment are utterly > static, I'm afraid I'm not at all certain that is how things are. I don't > really buy sharp-edged, instantaneous phenomena, because I don't think that any > such thing is ever experienced, and what is not experienced is not an > experiential reality. I see experience as occurring over time intervals that have > positive, not zero, duration, and, moreover, I think these intervals are what > theorists working in artificial intelligence might refer to as "fuzzy intervals", > without sharp, delineated beginnings or endings. Are you saying something along > these lines? (BTW, this understanding does not contradict impermanence, for all > that it means to say that conditions are impermanent, is that what is present > now will not indefinitely remain - that is, at some time later, it will not > be present.) > You raised a very important observation. And that is that when sensing e.g. hardness there is no impermanence to be found. (I hope I haven't paraphrased you incorrectly). I can't say much more than how very true that is. But it leads me to think that when folks go in search of paramattha dhammas, they will probably find them (by forming them), and miss the underlying impermanence in doing so. It seems to me that only when the metaphorical mind door is guarded, that is when impermanence is known. That is when vision, hearing, feeling is literally awash. As opposed to the sensing of objects, which is like looking at a photo. Two important facts about looking at a photo are: Photos are of a present, now past. Photos cannot capture change/motion. As long as one senses discrete objects, one is looking at the past, which excludes the possibility of seeing impermanence. Kind Regards Herman 37110 From: bernard.vital Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:28am Subject: Question I will come to Thailand from the 11th of December till the 14 of Januar. Not only for holiday. I also want to do some Buddhist study and a retreat in a monestry for one or two weeks. I am a duch man 40 years, I am gay (but not so explictly) and I am Buddhist. Can you give me some information about doing a small Buddhist course in English and about the posibilities of hving a retreat in a monestry... I hope to recieve soon a message from you. If you like to have more information about me please look at my website± www.vitalmoors.nl under the chapter my life you can find some details about my life. In the meantime I wish you a happy time withou suffering.... Vital Mr. Vital E.H. Moors Westerbaenstraat 212 2513 GK Den Haag The Netherlands +3170-3648843 bernard.vital@z... www.vitalmoors.nl 37111 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew Only time for a quick note today. As it happens, I was thinking about just what you said this morning. >Never have I heard him say we need to develop the >perfections. They are virtues that will help along the path I think this is right. The Perfections are very inspiring, and for me point at the conventional person rather than the person in absolute terms. In absolute terms a person is rupa and nama, but we know of course that over the years people have accumulations that *do* lead to the sense of a lasting character. This is an illusion, but it is a powerful illusion, and the Perfections- in my opinion- help us to understand what we mean when we make the mistake of saying "he is a good person." (That "is" is wrong if it is believed to be a stative verb rather than showing a momentary coming together of conditions.) When we develop the perfections we have many opportunities to consider what it means to be a good person in the Buddha's terms, but we are also constantly reminded - if we have right understanding - that this goodness is illusionary and fleeting. So there is a healthy middle way balance between a sense of virtuous character (which is a concept, but is inevitable in daily life) and the impersonality a bunch of wholesome cittas rising and falling away. That's why I love the Perfections, and that's why they're very helpful for beginners like myself, in my opinion. Bridging the gap between conventional understandings of virtue and virtue in the absolute, momentary, anatta sense. I think what the Buddha taught more explicitly about what we need to work on are the 37 factors. I googled them: 37 Factors of Enlightenment or Wings of Awakening (bodhipakkhiya-dhammá) The set of teachings that the Buddha himself said formed the heart of his message. Four Foundations of Mindfulness (satipatthana) Four Right Efforts (sammappadhana) Four Bases of Power (iddhipada) Five Faculties (indriya) Five Strengths (bala) Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga) Eight Fold Path (ariya-magga) Metta, Phil 37112 From: Egbert Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:00pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner -Herman Hi Ken, I really appreciated this post, all of it. But I'll snip most of it, for brevity only. ==== > > Exactly! There are no discussions, there is only the present moment of citta. Any ideas of discussion, you, me, the internet and so on are just that - ideas. Ideas occur in various moments of citta as illusory objects. We can't stop them: they keep cropping up. Look, > we are having that discussion after all! :-) ==== If I were a radical phenomenologist (I'm actually a centre-left one :-)), I would have to agree with you on the above, and also reject all beings as illusory objects. All that would be known at any given time would be whatever nama and rupa is arising, only the nama and rupa. Beings would be concepts, and their birth, dying and death would be a more compounded, grosser form of concept. But the cuti-citta is real, right?? And it in no way corelates with the imagined death of imagined beings, right?? Or does it?? :-) Kind Regards Herman 37113 From: Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:18pm Subject: Vism.XIV,105 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 105. III. i. D. The 'supramundane resultant' is of four kinds (66)-(69) because it is [respectively] the fruitions of the consciousnesses associated with the four paths (18)-(21). It occurs in two ways, that is to say, as [fruition in] the cognitive series of the path and as fruition attainment (see Ch. XXII). So resultant consciousness in all four planes is of thirty-six kinds. 37114 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:27pm Subject: I saw a persimmon tree Hello all This morning was talking to Naomi in the bathroom, maybe looking out the window (nice view of Fuji) as we talked, and I suddenly noticed the persimmon tree across the street was full of bright orange fruit. It made me realize that I don't look around me with much attention, because the persimmons would have already been orange for a couple of weeks now, and it was the first time this year I noticed persimmons. (They are very common trees.) We discuss a lot about the importance of seeing and debate about just what it means in absolute terms but maybe I am so absorbed in my Dhamma studies that I have stopped looking around me and seeing things in the plain old "there's a persimmon tree over there" conventional sense. When I first heard about "investigation of realities/phenomena" as one of the factors of enlightenment, I thought it meant going out and looking hard all around me, to see as much of the world as I can. That wasn't right. It is more subtle than that, more penetrative into the three characteristics of things. But now I realize that I am not looking enough at the world around me in the plain old "nice tree!" way. Otherwise I would have seen that tree much sooner. Also thought about the colour implications. Surely it was the bright orange as visible object, as rupa, that caught my eye. Larry and Howard and others have been having some very interesting, complex exchanges about the implications of seeing red, for example. If I understood correctly, Larry has said that red is consciousness, which I take to mean nama rather than rupa. In my opinion, this is going a little more deeply into analyzing the implications of seeing colour than is necessary. Can't we keep it simple? I think of this passage from K Sujin's "Realities and Concepts." "When we say that we like colours, what are these colours? The colours of eyebrows, eyes, nose, or lips. If there were no colours appearing how could there be eyebrows, eyes, nose or mouth? There could not be. However, when we see colours such as red, green, grey, blue or white we should know that colour is only the reality which appears through the eyes. Nevertheless, we like the colours of eyes, nose and lips, thus, we like concepts. Paramattha dhammas are real. However, when we like something we like both the paramattha dhamma which appears and the concept which is formed up on account of that paramattha dhamma." Personally speaking, that's about as deep as I need to go into thinking about seeing colour. It's a reality, a rupa, and we form concepts on account of it. But I'm a beginner. Who knows if, as the years go by, this understanding will be revealed as insufficient and I'll want to go much deeper into what it means to see colour, the way Howard and Larry and others do. Time will tell. It's all very interesting. Metta, Phil 37115 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: I saw a persimmon tree --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > In my opinion, this is going a little more deeply into analyzing the > implications of seeing colour than is necessary. Can't we keep it simple? > I think of this passage from K Sujin's "Realities and Concepts." > > "When we say that we like colours, what are these colours? The colours of > eyebrows, eyes, nose, or lips. If there were no colours appearing how could > there > be eyebrows, eyes, nose or mouth? There could not be. However, when we > see colours such as red, green, grey, blue or white we should know that > colour is only > the reality which appears through the eyes. Nevertheless, we like the > colours of eyes, nose and lips, thus, we like concepts. Paramattha dhammas > are real. However, when > we like something we like both the paramattha dhamma which appears and the > concept which is formed up on account of that paramattha dhamma." > > Personally speaking, that's about as deep as I need to go into thinking > about seeing colour. It's a reality, a rupa, and we form concepts on account > of it. +++++++++++++++++ Dear Phil, I think this is the right way. Now there is colour and there is the eyebase and there is seeing. It is by investigation of just these simple realities in the present moment that understanding grows. In the Atthasalini they warn that even madness can result from speculating wrongly about Abhidhamma. RobertK ] 37116 From: Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cause of impermanence Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/30/04 6:37:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > You raised a very important observation. And that is that when > sensing e.g. hardness there is no impermanence to be found. (I hope > I haven't paraphrased you incorrectly). > ======================= Your paraphrase is fine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37117 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:33pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > >> > On the most plausible interpretation of the evidence, the Pali > Milindapanha is a composite text. It consists of an older portion > (parts II & III, and a small section of part I) and a later one > (parts IV to VII and the legendary material in part I). The older > portion can probably be trusted as an accurate account of how the > Dhamma was understood by the 1st century Sarvastivadins of > Kashmir. +++++ I don't know much about the sarvasativadins, are they still popular? Do the tikas on the Milindapanha record how a sarvastivadin text become part of Theravada? ++++++++++++++++++ > > > ABHIDHAMMA: almost completely unreliable. > > The Abhidhamma of the Abhidhamma Pitaka and that of the MaCs > share many of the same terms but otherwise have virtually nothing > to do with each other. Canonical Abhidhamma is a work of genius; > the Commentarial system, reduced to its essential features, could > have been concocted by any third-rate thinker familiar with Plato > and Locke, without knowing anything about Buddhism at all. +++++++++++ I am very pleased you honor Abhidhamma. I had a recent converation with a scholar from a western university who says the Abhidhamma wasn't even recited at the first council! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ . > > The MaCs' contribution to the sciences clearly bears the stamp of > its time and appears to be the product of speculation rather than > observation, or else is just the reporting of received opinion > and prejudice. Whether this has any serious consequences for what > they have to say on the Dhamma is an interesting question. It > seems to me that it does at least throw their conception of > paramattha dhammas into a parlous state. Every paramattha dhamma, > it is claimed, has a sabhava. And that sabhava is partly > constituted by the dhamma's NAME. Not just any old name that > people might care to give it, but its name in the dialect of > Magadha, which is its true and absolute name. ++++++++++++ I found this paragraph hard to understand. When the commentaries explain the nature of dhammas and say that "They bear their own characteristics" this is only a metaphorical device. The tika to the Mulapariya sutta explains: "this is still said for the purpose of showing that these are mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributions as that of a "being" etc. Whereas such entities as self, beauty, pleasureableness, and permanence,etc, or nature (pakati), substance (dabba), soul (jiva), body etc, which are mere misconstructions (parikappitaakaaramatta) due to craving and views, or such entities as "sky-flowers" etc which are mere expressions of conventional discourse (lokavohaaramatta), cannot be discovered as ultimately real actualities (saccika.t.thaparamatthato), these dhammas (i.e. those endowed with a specific nature) can. These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. And though there is no real distinction (between these dhammas and their characteristics), still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device (upacaaramatta)." enquote The name is only a useful designation - The Abhidhammattha Vibhavani calls realities (such as rupa and nama) vijjamana pannatti to distinguish between non real concepts such as human and dog (called avijjamana pannattis) But the words in both cases are designated pannatti -concept. If you mean the commentaries though that even past Buddhas used pali language - that they believed it was a base language -I think you are right. I think it must be that way and the suttas support this belief: The Digha nikaya says "ninety-one aeons ago the Lord, the Arahant, the fully enlightened Buddha Vipassi arose in the world. Thirty-one aeons ago, the Lord Buddha Sikhi arose; in the same thirty-first aeon before this Lord Buddha Vessabhu arose. And in this present fortunate aeon the Lord Buddhas Kakusandha, Konagamana, and Kassapa arose in the world. And, monks, in this present fortunate aeon I too have now arisen in the world as a fully enlightened Buddha. ..In the time of the Lord Buddha Vipassi the life-span was eighty- thousand years;"" We see that these past Buddhas - even 91 aeons ago- had Pali names (according to the suttas). RobertK 37118 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:10pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > Hello Robert, > > R> (I think you doubt even suttanta such as Jataka?). > > I do not doubt that the Jatakas and their commentary were approved > by the sangha in 5th century Anuradhapura. I do not doubt that > some of them contain some good Dhamma. And I do not doubt that > others contain tawdry nonsense. > > So it would appear I have no doubts at all about the Jataka. > > I trust that the first four Nikayas, I trust that they can be accounted as the > Buddha-word in the sense of the Uttara maxim: "Whatsoever is > well-spoken, all that is the word of the Blessed One ..." (ya.m > ki~nci subhaasita.m sabba.m ta.m tassa bhagavato vacana.m arahato > sammasambuddhassa -- A iv 162-6) > > A ) > > R> Even in the DighaNikaya there are some suttas that us > R> moderns may not easily understand. take the Aganna sutta: > > In my opinion, moderns actually understand the Aganna Sutta > much better than the commentators did. > > In a line-by-line comparison Richard Gombrich has shown beyond > any reasonable doubt that the Sutta is a lively and ingenious > parody of the Rig Veda's Hymn of Creation and the Brihadaranyaka > Upanishad. Its account of anthropogenesis pokes fun at the > speculative excesses of the brahmins, as well as serving as an > allegory of how craving begets dukkha. To appreciate the parody properly one needs to read both the > brahmin and the Buddhist text in their original languages as the > humour involves a lot of punning. But if you don't fancy learning > Vedic Sanskrit, the next best thing is Gombrich's article, > Buddhaghosa, unfortunately, saw neither the joke nor the allegory > of the Aganna Sutta, took the whole thing literally, and left the > Theravada tradition saddled with a creation story so laughable it > makes the creationism of Christian fundamentalists seem like > sound science. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=== To be honest even without reading said article I doubt it would change my thinking. You said in another post that Buddhaghosa and the other commentators were, with regard to grammer, "completely reliable." "I seldom study a Sutta without having its commentary at my elbow. The MaCs were excellent grammarians and I rarely have reason to doubt the way that they unravel the syntax of a complex sentence or analyse the case relations in a compound word."" It seems unlikely that over the past 2600 yeras of the sasana that the sangha were so blind as to not be able to tell when the Buddha was making a joke. I did do a google search in case I could find it on-line and found an interview with Richard Gombrich http://www.ordinarymind.net/Interviews/interview_jan2003.htm Just as aside he says about Dependent origination that "A Polish lady called Joanna Jurewicz has finally understood it." I wonder if you have read the paper she wrote?. According to Theravada it is very deep and hard to comprehend. I was surprised he says he is not a Buddhist, his book about the sangha in Sri Lanka was very good. ============================ > > R> One I have problems with is somewhere where either the > R> Buddha or a commentary talked about Rahu and the moon eating > R> the sun or something during an eclipse. > > Right. These are the Suriya and Candima Suttas, somewhere in the > first part of the SN. I might be able to help you with your > problems. But it will have to wait until the third and final part > of my reply. +++ I look forward to it. RobertK 37119 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner -Herman Hi Herman, ------------------- H: > If I were a radical phenomenologist (I'm actually a centre-left one :-)), I would have to agree with you on the above, > ---------------------- KH: You have thrown me with this talk of a "radical phenomenologists:" I don't know how to relate to that. You go on to imply that a radical phenomenologist would only know nama and rupa. That might be the case at the intellectual level but not at a direct level, surely. Only a disciple of the Buddha knows (understands) nama and rupa directly. ---------------------- H: > and also reject all beings as illusory objects. > ---------------------- KH: When you say, "reject," I don't think you mean that anybody rejects the use of concepts, do you? I think you are saying that we (or some of us) know that the concepts we are using are not real. ---------------------- H: > All that would be known at any given time would be whatever nama and rupa is arising, only the nama and rupa. > ----------------------- KH: Forgetting this "fundamentalist phenomenologist" for now, can we just say: Sometimes there is consciousness of concepts, and at other times there is consciousness of paramattha dhamma (nama or rupa), but at any given time, there are, ultimately, only namas and rupas. If the conditions are right, any one of those namas and rupas (some are more accessible than others), can be taken as an object of right mindfulness (satipatthana). (That satipatthana would occur in the succeeding citta process (allowing only for a few bhavanga cittas in between).) ------------ H: > Beings would be concepts, and their birth, dying and death would be a more compounded, grosser form of concept. > ------------ KH: Yes, I suppose birth, death and dying are a grosser form of concept in that they are more obviously conceptual. ------------ H: But the cuti-citta is real, right?? ------------- Yes, all cittas are real. However, the cuti-citta is different from every other citta in the current lifetime. In my previous post, I didn't want to say just how it was different because I would have had to look up a textbook, and I was too lazy. I still am, sorry, but I know the cuti-citta takes as its object a moment of kamma that will dictate the circumstances in which the all cittas of the next lifetime arise (in heaven, hell, animal world or human world etc.). ------------------ H: > And it in no way corelates with the imagined death of imagined beings, right?? Or does it?? ------------------ Of course it does! Just about every absolute reality has its conceptual equivalent. In most cases, the cuti-citta correlates with the cessation of heartbeat and breathing. (The correlation will be less obvious where artificial respiration or resuscitation are involved.) Clear as mud? :-) Ken H 37120 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence: To Htoo, Nina, Rob K Dear Htoo, Nina, Robert K, Larry and all Htoo asked: "May I ask you a question? What is the object of the 4th jhana? Is it a paramattha dhamma or panatti dhamma?" The object of the 4th Jhaana can be one of the kasi.nas such as pathaviikasi.na (see Dhammasanganii, Section 165). Details of all types of the Jhaana objects can be studied in Chapters 3 through to 10 in Visuddhimaggo. A Jhaana object at the levels of memory-made nimitta is a paññatti dhamma. Please see the following passage regarding an advanced Jhaana nimitta (pa.tibhaaga nimitta) such as the one for the 4th Jhaana in Section 57, Visuddhimaggo. "Tañca kho neva va.n.navantam, na sa.n.thaanavantam. Yadi hi tam iidisam bhaveyya, cakkhuviññeyyam siyaa o.laarikam sammasanupagam tilakkha.nabbhaahatam, na panetam taadisam. Kevalañhi samaadhilaabhino upa.t.thaanaakaaramattam saññajametanti." The following is my off-the-cuff translation of the above Pali passage. "As a matter of fact, that Jhaana nimitta has neither color nor shape. If it were to have such things, it would have been possible for it to be seen by the crude eyes, to be reachable for observation, and to be inflicted by three characteristics or within the reach of three characteristics (arising, poising and diappearing). This Jhaana nimitta, however, is not something like that. It is purely a memory-made mere appearance to the attainer of Jhaana concentration." The above Pali passage also carries an unintendended warning to those Sanskritists who want to translate the term "nimittam" as "perceptual image" indiscriminately. Jhaana nimitta has neither color nor shape or look. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Larry, Howard, Nina, Robert K and all How are you? Howard has answered the main part of Larry's issue by way of Yoniso Manasikaara (exercising relevant mental orientation), which is the prerequisite for the Right View. I will add only a few things here. Larry quoted and wrote: "However, Nyanatiloka translates vitakka as thought- conception...snip..snip.. As such, we also need to observe and discover the three characteristics of thinking and rethinking as well. The three characteristics are what distinguish realities from non- realities. By applying Theravada observation methods such as Satipa.t.thaana to realities, we discover their three characterisitcs. By contrast, we cannot discover the three characteristics if the objects we take were unreal things (paññatti dhammaa) because the unreal things do not have the three characterisctics. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Suan, May I ask you a question? What is the object of the 4th jhana? Is it a paramattha dhamma or panatti dhamma? Thanks in advance. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37121 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma, Htoo. Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah and Htoo, > I understood that dosa-muulacittas cannot arise in the fine material > planes. > Correct? ... S: That's what I understand. I think there was a typo and RobM meant to refer to 12 faulty volitions bringing results during life.... I'll leave him to sort out the spheres and charts and numbers now which I know he will. Metta, Sarah p.s my basic arithmetic looked wrong, but again I know RobM will follow and sort it out;-). ====== 37123 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 1:55am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner25-Contact /Phassa(k) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** We have different contacts through the eyes and through the ears. When we are at the opera, we may dislike the sight of someone who is singing but we may like the sound. There are different objects and different contacts; there can be like and dislike at different moments. In reality there is no singer nor is there a person who can look at him and listen to his singing at the same time. There are only different elements, nåmas and rúpas, which each have their appropriate conditions for their arising and can only be experienced one at a time. The citta and the accompanying cetasikas which experience visible object arise at one moment; the citta and the accompanying cetasikas which experience sound arise at another moment, in another process of cittas. The dislike of visible object cannot arise at the same time as the attachment to the sound; they arise in different processes of cittas. Cittas succeed one another very rapidly and at each moment there is a different contact accompanying the citta. Because of ignorance we do not know the reality which is experienced at the present moment. We do not know whether it is sound, visible object or a concept. We think that all these realities can appear at the same time. We think most of the time of concepts instead of being aware of realities as they appear one at a time. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 37124 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:12am Subject: "Hope for the best, even when expecting the worst ..." Dear Group, On Wednesday, I explained to a kindly Veterinarian that I wouldn't have Rusty 'put down', but would prefer further investigations. I said that only if he couldn't be kept comfortable while 'allowing nature to take it's course' would we need to discuss 'other options' again. Today, I visited Rusty at the Animal Hospital. He has had most of the back of his neck shaved, has drips connected to each front paw and a catheter connected elsewhere. He is feeling very sorry for himself (and I am too!). But he knew I was there, which is more than he has known for the last couple of days. The CT scan showed no tumours, but, instead, a 1/2 cm space across the back of the top of the cranium filled with air, indicating that he has brain degeneration - he also has inflammatory meningitis. It may be that in a few days time he can come Home, and continue treatment orally instead of by drip. The hospital staff - the receptionists, the cleaners, the veterinary doctors, the university trainees, were all beaming and coming by continually to say how glad they were to have such an 'unexpected win'! So ... brain degeneration ... that's sad, yes, no one would deny it ... but that's just the way it is ... and, really, how much brain does a furry chap need in order to lie on the grass in the morning sun, and under a shady tree in the afternoon; to chase hares and magpies across the paddocks; to come when called for dinner; and to know who it is that loves him unconditionally? :) :) :) :) :) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37125 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Upacara samadhi Dear Aries, I don't think anyone replied to your questions (the list has been very busy for the last few weeks), so belatedly I'd like to at least welcome you to DSG! Please share a little more about yourself and your practice. Where do you live? --- gautama_buddha2004 wrote: > Dear friends, > > I am new to this group. > > I want to ask those who have experienced upacara samadhi or if better > jhana . > > Have you ever felt that during meditation , suddenly you don't see > your body anymore but have subtle conciousness? > > For those who have, what do you do after that to shift to higher > state? .... May I ask what makes you have an interest in upacara samadhi and jhana and what makes you think your meditation experiences are related in some way? When we have an idea of 'doing' something 'during meditation', do you think this suggests any idea of self? I ask because this is a hotly contested issue here;-) You make also like to look at some of the posts under jhana, concentration and samatha in Useful Posts and let us know what you think. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts My own idea is that there can be many very special and unusual experiences during meditation and it's very easy to take these for being a developed state of insight or samatha/jhana. I hope we hear more from you. Metta, Sarah ====== 37126 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Howard My apologies to you and others for coming back on posts from a week or more ago, but have not had a chance until now. A general holiday today (Chinese national day) gives me a chance to do some catching up. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - ... > ========================== > For me there is an advantage. The term 'content' (for me) lacks a > connotation of of independence/self-existence moreso than does the term > 'object'. > > With metta, > Howard Yes, and I can see that that 'experiential content' would be more comfortable from a phenomenological point of view. ;-)) But 'content' may carry other connotations, such as being a part of, or something included within, a bigger whole, in this case 'experience' (however one understands that term, whether as a noun or a verb). Such a way of thinking would run counter to the emphasis otherwise found in the texts of dhammas as being at all times separately and individually knowable to panna. It is I think significant that sense-door consciousness and the object of sense-door consciousness are in separate categories under various different classifications of dhammas (e.g., as khandhas, elements, sense-bases, foundations of mindfulness), with the emphasis on these different categories each being knowable to, and to be known by, insight knowledge. Jon 37127 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ========================== > I am interpreting 'vi~n~nana' in the scheme of dependent origination > to refer to the self-oriented knowing: the illusory sense of a subject > encountering an object. This, of course, is the consequence of sankhara, which in turn > is a consequence of avijja. For further clarification, there is my whole > sequence of past posts on this matter to look at. I'd really rather not go through > that all again at this juncture, though. > > With metta, > Howard That's OK, I'm not asking for an explanation of the links of dependent origination , or for anything covered in your earlier posts; I'm simply following up on the nature of the moment of experiencing, which is the original issue of this thread (as I recall -- it's in danger of getting lost in the mists of time!). Here you refer to vinnana in the scheme of dependent origination as 'self-oriented knowing: the illusory sense of a subject encountering an object', which I gather you see as being somehow related to your earlier statement about a merging of consciousness and its object. However, I think this is not quite to the point of this thread, and I'll try and explain why. We have agreed previously that at every moment of sense-door consciousness there is present both the dhamma that is consciousness (vinnana, citta) and the dhamma that is the object of the consciousness (in the case of a moment of seeing, for example, these are seeing consciousness and visible-object). Now the question we are considering is, what is the relationship between these 2 dhammas -- the dhamma that is consciousness and the dhamma that is the object of that consciousness -- at that moment? The relationship we are seeking to establish is the general relationship pertaining between consciousness and its object, common to all instances of consciousness and its object, and thus does not depend on considerations such as the state of enlightenment or otherwise of the being in question ot the particular kind of citta concerned. Now putting aside for the moment such considerations as the possibility of misinterpretation by others (since all of us here are alert to this danger and can discount it for the purpose of the present discussion), is it not correct to say that the citta experiences the object of citta? Jon 37128 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hi, Joop Thanks for the reply. --- jwromeijn wrote: ... > On the first question: we never know that, of no text at all, not of > the Pali canon and not of other buddhist or buddhological texts. All > I have is my intuition, my intelligence and my experience (for > example for meditation) But surely the Pali canon is in a category of its own here (why otherwise are we discussing it?). We know it is the word of the Buddha or at least the best available record of it. We may not have been able to verify a great deal of it by direct experience as yet, but to the extent that that has been possible we have found it to be proven true. As for our intuition, intelligence and 'meditative' experience, we know from the Kalama Sutta and our own experience in just this lifetime that these are not reliable guides. The only truly reliable guide it seems to me is the actual word of the Master as we have it, and to that I would add the explanations given by the ancient commentators. > But in general I'm not sure if this kind of discussions are > fruitfoll, cf my post # 36719 Perhaps not, but I hope I have explained why I have trouble responding with any enthusiasm to suggestions to spend more time discussing the views/works of latter day commentators ;-)). Jon 37129 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:34am Subject: "input from someone who has left the Group" 1 Dear Friends, We always welcome feedback from those who choose to leave DSG and I've been given permission to share any extracts from a couple of letters from a member who has just left the group. I don't believe 'J.' ever posted to the list and I'd be grateful if any of you can respond and give him any encouragement or feedback as clearly he has much to contribute. He'll be following this thread and may respond. Metta, Sarah ***** Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:12:06 -0700 (PDT) J:>It is a fine group and serious and sincere people sharing. However for me it is too many words, too much analysis, too complex for my poor brain, each post in general needs more time and thought to consider. I find the intense analysis and semantic detail really requiring a working knowledge of Pali and Sanskrit and I just don't have that much time left in this lifetime. Actually I find the Dhamma very simple. It comes down to the Dhamma Seals and the realization which follows "deep hearing of the Dhamma". All that analysis keeps the intellect busy but it seems to me to delay the move to enlightenment and Nibbana. To be attached to all the analysis is still attachment and may help understanding but impede personal transformation. As I see the Abhidhamma it is what was developed because analytical minds were actually looking for a "theology" (pardon the expression) of Buddhism, not being satisfied with the Teaching of the Buddha directly. Likewise most of the Vinaya was designed to handle the behavior of monks and nuns because they could not seem to follow the simple injunction of the Dhammapada,183 "To shun evil. To do good. To purify one's heart. This is the teaching of the Buddha." That is too simple for active minds, is it not? So many questions, so many answers. The Buddha had no suttas, no sacred writings, to chant, to quote, to analyze. Just people to whom to share his realizations. His final message was "Be a lamp unto yourselves." The light which comes from that "lamp" is shining as brightly today as then, and is just as misunderstood today as it was to many of his followers who didn't understand Konnadana's realization... "What rises, passes away!" Just too simple. Be well, enjoy, learn much, find the Way. Walk On!< ***** 37130 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:38am Subject: Implausibilities? (was, Re: "... as parasites a tree." ???) Greetings, Dighanakha --- dighanakha wrote: > Hello Sarah (and Jon), ... > S> As Jon also wrote before to Howard: > > J> Actually, there are a number of aspects to the teachings > J> that run counter to either our taught values or innately > J> held beliefs, but many of these things we have now come to > J> recognise as having merit or as more than likely being in > J> accordance with the way things are.Ó > > Jon, do you think that the above statement about wolf-children > growing up speaking Pali is likely to be in accordance with the > way things are? There are a number of statements in both the suttas and commentaries that taken literally would be inconsistent with modern scientific knowledge (I am thinking of, for example, references to the geography of the world, the first occurrence of human life on earth, development of species, changes in lifespan, etc; Rob K has just mentioned others). However, I do not consider that these differences lessen the reliability of the teachings on doctrinal matters. I tend to assume, based on my experience to date, that a clearer meaning will emerge in due course as understanding is further developed. I don't know how it was for you, but when I first became interested in the teachings there was much about what I read that was 'impossible' or at least 'highly fanciful', and certainly unscientific. However, gradually over the years the fanciful became plausible and the merely plausible became in turn a likely explanation. Similarly, my interest initially was only in the suttas, and in particular those that talked about the 'practice', but again over time there has come to be an appreciation of a much broader part of the teachings including the commentaries. So while I can't immediately offer any worthwhile comment on the passage you have quoted, it wouldn't for me be a cause for any doubt about the worth of the commentaries as a whole, because I find them to be totally consistent when it comes to doctrinal matters. Which brings me to the question of how you see the issue(s) you have raised as affecting an understanding of the essential teaching of the Buddha. I'd be interested to hear you on this (a sweeping question, I know, but trying to get back to what's important ;-)). Jon 37131 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:48am Subject: Sunrises and Sunsets - Input 2 Dear Friends, The following is the second letter from 'J', following a brief note from me. I wonder if any of the 'mature' members in particular, like Howard, Joop or Lodewijk c/o Nina, or other lurking or semi-lurking friends like AndrewT might have comments to add. ('J', thank you again so much for sharing your background, interests and practice so beautifully. S.) Metta, Sarah ***** Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:35:36 -0700 (PDT) >Dear Sarah, Thank you for your kind email. I have thought many times about sharing my reactions to DSG and felt it would be received as too critical by many. The DSG is dedicated to developing an understanding of the Abhidhamma, as I understand it. For those who are interested in such study this Group is a good thing and I don't and haven't wished to detract from that purpose. My response is personal and not intended to cause reaction. My current path includes "sitting" at sunrise and sunset in the outdoors. This is my Buddhist Altar these days and in a very urban setting. My goal is simplicity. I don't count breaths, I don't focus on any topic, just waiting with the sunrise and sunset. I have had a variety of experiences and realizations as a result with no hooks. As a personal challenge I have been dealing with anger reactions most of my life and in this current activity a new sense of peace and serenity has emerged and the angry reactions are disappearing. (I wish I could say it was perfect but...). One of the other responses is that I have heard the Dhamma sounded in many activities right here in the world right where I am. They speak of impermanence, of suffering and liberation from suffering, of nonattachment, of self as an assemblege from and with all and everything (interdependence), and all the concepts are just words. It is all very simple, and I feel that this is what the Buddha experienced as he moved from ascetisim to simple "sitting" and realization. Now having shared all that I am aware that there are many paths to enlightenment and to each his own. One might consider me an elder now in my 70s and I have learned finally not to go where things make my brain hurt. Mostly I am letting go of many things, that is just my path these days. Back to your suggestion. I don't feel like rejoining and posting at this time and starting something. But if you want to edit what I have written and post it as "imput from someone who has left the Group" and solicit responses I will be happy to lurk a bit and consider responding if it is fruitful. I repeat I don't which to create a problem or a distraction. If something constructive can come out of this, good. My qualifications include university training in comparative religion and a resulting lifelong study of the same. My dedication to a Buddhist "set" is built out of my reading of the Kalama Sutra, followed by practicing therefrom. I am more interested in what people are experiencing rather than what they are understanding. In that light I will further share with you that in my meditations at sunrise and sunset I notice that there is a "time" when there is total silence, the world turns gold and pink, and then the invitations to distraction begins as the activities of the world begin to waken and invite interaction. The "peace" continues where I am as I do not respond, until it is time to interact. Wherever I stop during a busy day, including 5 dogs, 4 cats, a wife, and shepherding the affairs of 9 farmers markets, I find that in stopping I am still in that peace, and the world goes on being busy. In my morning and evening meditations the dogs come out and play and one or more will come and touch me with their nose and then go back to play. Several are now joining me in "quiet time" (a much better word for meditation; meditation implies following a procedure, a technique). My "Quiet Times" unstructured began about two months ago with better results than anything experienced with formal meditation practices for years. So Sarah, if you can make anything out of all this "stuff" well and good. If any of it is worth sharing with others. Feel free to share it with them.< ***** 37132 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:04am Subject: MP3s of discussions in India 2001 Dear Phil, Dan, KenH & All, We thought it would be relatively easy to share discussion recordings from our last visit and then add others, but we've not been very successful at all, mainly due to time constraints. However, we have managed to 'encourage' a lurking member/friend, Tom W. to put the tapes which he edited from the last India trip with A.Sujin (which he, his wife Beverly, Nina, Jon, Kom and 100+ others joined) on his website in a DSG corner. The tapes are clear and for anyone who'd like a taste of A.Sujin, Nina and friends discussing dhamma, please test it out if you can and share any feedback. We still hope to make other discussions available and perhaps someone in Bangkok like *Sukin* can let the list know if the regular discussions are being broadcast live anytime. ***** Here is the link to the dsg corner on Tom's website, and the names of the files with English discussion (the discussion on the other files is in Thai). Tom has some helpful note on the website that describes how to download the files to your harddrive (rather than play them from the website). http://www.westheimers.net/dsg/ india 2-2 [4.9 KB, 28 mins] india 2-3 [5.2 KB, 29 mins] india 3-1 [5.6 KB, 37 mins] india 3-2 [4.8 KB, 27 mins] Metta, Sarah (& Jon) ============== 37133 From: matt roke Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:14am Subject: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Sarah and Ken, I had planned to get back to Ken about this topic but got distracted. Although it will mean going into deep waters and I'm not an accomplished swimmer. ========================= ========================= Sarah:> Actually, the only comment you've made on DSG which I've seriously questioned and am still puzzled by is the one in (35790) to Ken H when we were away. I think he responded with some surprise too, but I forget how it went. You wrote: M: 'My understanding is that citta and its accompanying cetasikas experience a reality. That concept (thought) is made up of many cittas. And that citta is said to experience a concept because the reality of each citta that makes up the concept is experienced.' S: This para makes no sense to me. Would you kindly elaborate, perhaps using your own example of seeing and visible object and perhaps a later concept of a visible object? ========================= ========================= It went like this: Ken:> Thinking is real - I am sure we all agree on that. In other words, the cetasikas, sanna, vicara, vitakka, cetana, samadhi and all the other cetasikas that work together to create thoughts are real. However, I understand that the thoughts they create are not real. Matt:> I would have to add citta to that list Ken> There is confusion over what each of us means by `a thought.' There is confusion as to who is of the opinion, `a thought is a paramattha dhamma' and who is of the opinion, `a thought is not a paramattha dhamma.' Matt:> Thought (concept) is not a paramattha dhamma Ken:> I think the misunderstanding can be cleared up by asking, "In a moment when citta experiences a thought, what is the object (arammana) of that citta?" My impression is that citta takes an object but the object doesn't really exist (is not a paramattha dhamma). Note I am not talking only about the `referent' of the object: I am saying the object itself is illusory. Matt:> My understanding is that citta and its accompanying cetasikas experience a reality. That concept (thought) is made up of many cittas. And that citta is said to experience a concept because the reality of each citta that makes up the concept is experienced. Ken:> I can almost grasp that, but not quite. For the time being, I'll stick with my current understanding: When there is pannatti, the presently arisen citta (together with its cetasikas) is creating a concept and is experiencing its own creation. There seems to be an object of experience, but in the ultimate sense that object is illusory. If you think that is seriously wrong, please try again. ============================== ============================== Ken wrote: "In a moment when citta experiences a thought, what is the object (arammana) of that citta?" My impression is that citta takes an object but the object doesn't really exist (is not a paramattha dhamma)". The object of a citta is dhamma; it is a reality which is either rupa or nama. And a concept is not dhamma; it is not a reality, neither rupa nor nama. Therefore to say that an object of citta is a concept is the same as saying that a reality is a non-reality and that citta experiences nothing. Ken wrote: "When there is pannatti, the presently arisen citta (together with its cetasikas) is creating a concept and is experiencing its own creation. It would seem that this is inferring that the citta and its cetasikas experience two objects; the one they originally arose to experience and the one they created. My understanding is that citta experiences the visible object and sanna marks (and remembers) it. It is then experienced in the mind-door where sanna marks it. What is experienced and marked in both doors is an object and there is no story or concept in that object. That happens in the following conditioned citta process in the mind-door. There can be audible object and because of sanna there can be recognition of the sound. But it is the conditioned citta process of the mind-door that there is knowing that it is a sound, that it is the sound of a bird, and there is knowing it by name as a *sound* or a *sound of a bird*. Everyday life is citta experiencing objects through the sense-doors and in conditioned processes through the mind-door. No one in charge or doing the thinking. So what I meant when I wrote to Ken was that a citta experiences a reality but not a concept and that something is known (there is concept) because of the conditioned process of citta (where citta experiences a reality). MattR 37134 From: matt roke Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Q. Intro Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika. Hi Larry and Nina, I know you brought this up quite a few days ago but I am still trying to catch up with you all. Just wanted to add something to what Nina wrote. ======================== ======================== L:> One thing that is a little unconvincing is that a smell, taste, or sound are never accompanied by unpleasant feeling. N:> I think you mean the experience of smell, etc., not the smell itself. L:> The bitter taste of medicine, the smell of a corpse, or the sound of fingernails scraping a blackboard seem to me to be very unpleasant. N:> Agreed. L:> This is a direct sensation of unpleasantness that preceeds aversion. L:> I'm not saying that unhappy feeling accompanies taste, for example; rather I would say pleasant or unpleasant feeling accompanies taste and I would call it a bodily feeling because it is dependent on conditions of the tongue base sensitivity. I would call bodily feeling any feeling that arises with material consciousness. L:> However, this insistence on neutral feeling with taste might give us a glimpse of an arahant's experience. Apparently food neither tastes good nor bad for an arahant. I see this as being like the touch of a feather. The touch of a feather can be either pleasant or unpleasant dependent on bodily sensitivity; if a feather touches the eye it can be unpleasant. So tongue sensitivity must change with a path moment. L:> I realize this throws a spanner in the nama rupa distinction, but in the spirit of abhidhamma in daily life I think we have to call them as we see them. L:> As for a bad taste and not liking the bad taste, I can see a difference between the two. Take whiskey for example. If you have never tasted whiskey and you take a little sip, you probably will think it tastes bad, but you still might like it. Abhidhamma seems to say there is no such thing as a bad taste; there is only flavour and secondarily liking it or not. At this point, I'm skeptical. ========================= When you talk about the unpleasantness of the object and aversion towards it I think that like most people you are referring to the same thing. The citta that experiences the object is either kusala vipaka-citta or akusala vipaka-citta, so it does not arise with lobha or dosa as would a kusala or akusala citta, which follows afterwards. An adult may find the smell of a very strong cheese most appealing, so the citta that follows is likely to be with lobha, while a child will find it most unpleasant, so the following citta will most likely be with dosa. If we felt the same way as the child then we would think that the smell of the cheese (direct sensation) is unpleasant and so we would have aversion for it. We mistake the dosa that arises as being both the unpleasant smell of the cheese and the aversion for it. The citta that experience an object through a sense-door is accompanied by a neutral feeling. If it arose with lobha or dosa then all beings would react the same way towards objects. The reason people have different likes and dislikes is because the lobha and dosa arise afterwards, due to conditions. Also, an anagami, arahat and a Buddha could not be freed of these unwholesome states if the citta (experiencing an object) had to be accompanied by lobha if it were a pleasant object or dosa if it were unpleasant. MattR 37135 From: matt roke Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika.nama/rupa Hi Phil and all, ========================== ========================== P:> As far as I know, abhidhamma says that the sense processes are the same, whether it's seeing, say, or hearing, or smell. But we know from science and we can confirm from our own experience that the olfactory sense follows a different path in the brain than other senses. ========================== Citta is diverted to a particular sense-door, which is different to the other sense-doors. The citta that experiences the object in one door cannot experience an object in any of the other doors and the sense door process that follows can only happen in that door not in any other. That's makes them all different and they follow different paths. MattR 37136 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Hope for the best, even when expecting the worst ..." Christine, LOL--wonderful story. Right now, we have a blind cat who is otherwise healthy. We too were encouraged to have him 'put down' due to 'quality of life' issues, but refused. He's in no pain, apparently, and gets around the house remarkably well. Certainly in one of my more crude previous lives :) I would have had him killed, but in this one, well, lucky cat! My daughter clinched the decision for us with "You know dad, someday you'll be old and blind." LOL Unconditional love? At least unconditional respect for other sentient life...the least we can do as we go about dismembering the planet. With metta, Bill christine_forsyth wrote: Dear Group, On Wednesday, I explained to a kindly Veterinarian that I wouldn't have Rusty 'put down', but would prefer further investigations. I said that only if he couldn't be kept comfortable while 'allowing nature to take it's course' would we need to discuss 'other options' again. Today, I visited Rusty at the Animal Hospital. He has had most of the back of his neck shaved, has drips connected to each front paw and a catheter connected elsewhere. He is feeling very sorry for himself (and I am too!). But he knew I was there, which is more than he has known for the last couple of days. The CT scan showed no tumours, but, instead, a 1/2 cm space across the back of the top of the cranium filled with air, indicating that he has brain degeneration - he also has inflammatory meningitis. It may be that in a few days time he can come Home, and continue treatment orally instead of by drip. The hospital staff - the receptionists, the cleaners, the veterinary doctors, the university trainees, were all beaming and coming by continually to say how glad they were to have such an 'unexpected win'! So ... brain degeneration ... that's sad, yes, no one would deny it ... but that's just the way it is ... and, really, how much brain does a furry chap need in order to lie on the grass in the morning sun, and under a shady tree in the afternoon; to chase hares and magpies across the paddocks; to come when called for dinner; and to know who it is that loves him unconditionally? :) :) :) :) :) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37137 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:25am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner25-Contact /Phassa(k) Dear Sarah and others. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > ......snip..... > Because of ignorance we do not know the reality which > is experienced at the present moment. We do not know whether > it is sound, visible object or a concept. We think that all these > realities can appear at the same time. We think most of the time > of concepts instead of being aware of realities as they appear one > at a time. > ***** > [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > A: there is another thread about the Paramis, which started me thinking about the wonderful patience. I have noticed that even on hte conceptual level, knowing that these different realities, mentioned above, are occuring now, has been a condition for me to be less impatient with daily life. Sometimes when things are'nt going the way 'I' want, I'll have a 'dhamma' thought about the things that are going on, and there is usually lots more than I'm focused on,e.g. cool breeze, sweet smells, someone smiling, bird call. Concepts I know, but I think these concepts come from experiencing the reality [without Sati, I might add :-( ] thro a sense door and almost instantly conceptualising. Thanx for these posts, Sarah. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 37138 From: matt roke Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Dighanakha, ======================== ======================== D:> Though Matt's comment has met with the list's general approval, I am not myself satisfied with it. The Jataka stories' judgments on women are grossly in error and this casts a shadow of doubt on the good judgment of the commentators. To try and lift this shadow by appealing to some other doctrine from these same commentators would be a case of "Ask my fellow if I be a thief!" And it is only from the commentators that we get the idea that the Buddha's Dhamma has to do with paramattha dhammas and citta-khanas. These terms are not found in the Tipitaka -- not even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. ========================= Let me express similar thoughts using the Buddha's Dhamma. Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change the fact that all creatures are subject to suffering. Whether the Buddha held those views or not, does not change the fact that all suffering is rooted in selfish craving and ignorance. Whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction does not change the fact that with the extinction of craving and ignorance there will be liberation from suffering and from this Samsara. Whether the Teaching will last 500 or 5,000 years does not change the fact that the way to the extinction of suffering is the 8 fold-path. The Dhamma and the path are for cultivating wisdom. And wherever this is found there is no pessimism about the Jataka Tales, there is no quandary regarding people's views, there is no disdain of men or other beings, there is no repugnance of sexist views, there is no holding dear of women only, and there is no indulgence in the gratification of what is viewed as self and who we are. ========================= ========================= D:> Why trust what a man has to say about micro-scale momentary mental events, if he can't even get it right about the observable behaviour of one half of the human race? ========================= Here is another way to divide the world into two groups where the behaviour of one half is notable because of its indifference. In one group we can put all the people in the world who are starving, who are destitute, who have Aids, who have been maimed, who have lost one or more of their faculties, who are ill, who have been injured, who are incapacitated, who are mentally deranged, who have just lost loved ones and who are dying. And in the other we can put all those who are healthy, with full stomachs, who have a home and possessions, who have family and friends and who do not have any of the afflictions of the first group. When there is no understood that this world is this way because of the law of kamma and because it is the nature of Samsara, then there can be dissatisfaction with the state of things and a desire to change it. Lobha and dosa are common to us all and they can arise when conditioned by what we may think are injustices, of which there are many in this world. It is not pleasing to see a being harmed or to seu a being harm. But finding freedom from this unpleasant state does not come from trying to change the kamma or the mind of others but in understanding our own. MattR 37139 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Pleasant Abiding, Htoo Dear Htoo, Thank you for answering my questions. I take no your last post which also covers your former ones baout this subject. I have to be a bit short, I only have one more Email working week next week, before India! op 30-09-2004 16:15 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > As I told Nina, sotapams, sakadagams, anagams, and arahats who are > ariyas have attained their respective magga nana. They have been > registered as sotapams, sakadagams, anagams, and arahats. > > They should all be able to attain phala samapatti. They have attained > lokuttara appana. N: Also someone who is a sukkhavipassaka, with dry insight, experiences nibbaana with samaadhi of the degree of attainment concentration. The reason is the object which is nibbaana. Those who are jhaanalabhi can attain enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by the different jhanafactors. At the moment of enlightenment, magga-citta arises, and then it is followed in the same process by phalacittas, fruition consciousness. The magga-citta conditions the vipaakacitta, fruition consciousness by way of anantara-paccaya and other conditions. There is no delay, we chant: akaliko. ( we shall chant this many times in India!). Vis. VII, 31: However, those who are jhaanalaabhi can experience nibbaana again with phalacittas in the course of life. The Vis. describes details later on. See what Larry just posted; In Pali:< ta.m maggaviithivasena ceva samaapatti vasena ca dvidhaa pavattati. > The Tiika elaborates somewhat. It has two positions, .thaana. Thus, within the process enlightenment occurs, and later on as samaapatti. I have some work with this Tiika next week. My last one. Htoo: N: That is the way I also think. It is bhaavana when we sincerely consider and write about Dhamma. It is a way of developing kusala. When those who receive our post do not react that is not our concern, we just try to help and develop understanding ourselves. You are always an example for me, having so much equanimity, not minding whether people react or not, or even when they dislike what you write. With appreciation, Nina. 37140 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact / Phassa(d) Hi Howard & All, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] > > ***** > > We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length > > sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning > > contact: > > > > -This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when > > -there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will > > -recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... > > > > When there is the concurrence of the ear, sound and > hearing-consciousness, > > there is the manifestation of ear-contact. When there is the <...> H:> The foregoing displays, I believe, a subtle difference between > Abhidhamma Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. > In the suttas, it is said that sense-door object and > (activated/energized/arisen) sense organ serve to condition > corresponding sense consciousness, > and *the coming together of the three* is contact. But here contact > seems to > be presented as a subtle, mental, kammic formation - a formation within > sankharakkhandha - which *manifests* as that convergence, i.e., which is > a needed > condition for the convergence of the three. As Nina writes, for example: > "When > there is the concurrence of body-sense, a tangible object such as > hardness and > the experience of hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact." .... S: I think it depends how the suttas are understood again. >*the coming together of the three* is contact. Simply put, without an experiencing of the object with the mental factor phassa contacting the object, there would be no 'coming together'. The rupas would not be experienced. Remember, rupas are only experienced. Nina already replied and I'd like you to take another look at a post I wrote ages ago to you on phassa, concerning some arguments of Prof Kalupahana's which I thought were inaccurate. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27298 Please let me know if you're still not satisfied as I think it's an important area, esp. as we're almost at the end of the ch on phassa cetasika. You mention in the suttas that 'contact is the convergence', but remember, we're talking about realities/actualities and the only realities here are cittas, cetasikas and rupas. So which would such a convergence be? By the way, I thought your answer to TG on the 'why' qu was very good (37001) and thank you for helping out there;-).TG, let me know if there was anything else. No entity, but there is a reality, phassa, which has particular characteristics different from other mental factors, touching or contacting the object. The characteristic of contacting is phassa. On your discussion with RobM on 'whatever in the cosmos....'That do I know'. Whatever the Buddha puts his mind to, that he knows with his omniscient wisdom. metta, Sarah p.s we briefly discussed the bhikkhu giving up ties to family etc and you mentioned the Buddha. Perhaps we can say, giving up all ties of a household nature or as a family member, don't you think? ==================================== 37141 From: Egbert Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 4:44am Subject: The Sotapanna from Crete Hi All, There is this little puzzle. All Cretans are liars. I am a Cretan. What to make of that? And then there is this. All sotapannas lack self-belief. I am a sotapanna. What to make of that? For what purpose, and whose use, is the term sotapanna in circulation? Kind Regards Herman 37142 From: plnao Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] "input from someone who has left the Group" 1 Hello all (and J, if you happen to be around still) > > "To shun evil. > To do good. > To purify one's heart. > This is the teaching of the Buddha." > Yes, but if we just set out with the intention of doing good unaware of all the lobha that motivates us, we'll end up binding ourselves tighter to the wheel. I can't think of any more effective way of purifying the heart than vipassana in the light of growing understanding of realities. What is the single teaching that differentiates the Dhamma from all other great teachings, from all other religions? It is not shunning evil or doing good. We can get that from most spiritual traditions. It is anatta. Liberation comes from seeing deep into matter and mind. I love Dhammapada - it is a great inspiration to me. Come to think of it, I think it was only about 18 months ago, around 6 months before I came to DSG, that I asked at another group why it was necessary to study anything more than Dhammapada. So I can relate to J. I can also tell him now that with only suttas, even more complex ones that Dhammapada, we will not see into anatta. Abhidhamma lays out conditions clearly, and it lays out paramattha dhammas. And understanding them lays out the road to understanding anatta. And understanding anatta is the first step towards knowing it directly. This is nothing that no one has heard before, and if J were to read it he wouldn't be convinced. As I said the other day to someone, people with different accumulations respond to different teachings. The Buddha's Eightfold Path is a very wide one, with room for many ways to walk it. J will find his and I feel metta as I say that, and mudita, because his heart is oviously in the right place. Metta, Phil 37143 From: plnao Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Deeds of Merit - importance of samatha Hi Eric (and thanks for the feedback, Nina) > Ph> That being said, I also am skeptical about how many people have > the conditions to develop jhanas, and I suspect that there is a lot > of false jhanifying going on out there. > Eric: > It is for each to find out for themself. I would > not worry about others attainments etc. Right. And I thought afterwards that my statement stunk of sour grapes. I should feel mudita for anyone who achieves jhanas and not speculate on whether its bogus or not. More likely, there will be both mudita and akusala speculation, because wholesome and unwholesome factors always arise pell-mell. > > Ph> People who decide to develop jhanas because they know that if > they don't they won't get the full benefits of the Buddha's > teaching. There is self seeking benefits, I'm sure, a lot of the > time. > > OK Phil, I touched on this with Sukin. There are > Right Aspirations that can come from 'self'. If the > conceit 'I Am' is not eradicated till Arahantship, then > EVERYONE before that operates from 'self'. There is either > good kamma or bad kamma at this stage. Wanting (chanda) good > things (jhana) at this stage is a wholesome desire. Ph: Thanks for putting this so succinctly. It's something I've babbled at great length to Sarah about, without ever reaching a conclusion. Technically speaking, this "I am" wrong view is eradicated at Sotapanna rather than Arahant, if I'm not mistaken, but even then I see your point. But understanding this in theory and sitting like I have done at times in recent weeks and feeling downright silly to be doing such an unnatural, results-oriented activity is different. But yes, I do see what you mean. I think there is possibly value in this kind of aspiration, even if fuelled by self. At the beginning. Stress on possibly. I really don't know yet. I think the purpose of this post for me was to remind myself that it would be wrong to close the door to any new directions in understanding that come my way. Conditions may arise that find me sitting again. I am open to it. >> PH: The reason I have trouble sitting now is that I clearly sense > self behind it. > > Fine, sit with that. Learn about that and then > try and deconstruct that sense of self in whatever > fashion you find it. Ph: I can see this too. When I was sitting with attention on the breath there were some moments when I sensed how everything hinged on the next breath, and it gave me some very helpful (although crude) insight into the three characteristics. "Deconstruct that sense of self in whatever fashion you find fit." That's a good line. That's what we're all trying to do, and we should respect and encourage each other no matter whether we sit, stand walk or run. Thanks for the links. Metta, Phil 37144 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Larry Just butting in here. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > My main question about concept and realty is that kamma seems to be more > realistic when it is discussed conventionally. Take beauty for example. > As kamma result it can be either kusala or akusala, either a matter of > wholesomeness or attachment. But beauty isn't just one flash of color. > It is a complex formation. Strictly speaking any complex formation is a > concept and a concept isn't a kamma result and concepts don't age or > become disfigured. Additionally, beauty comes packaged in desirability. > It seems to me this means beauty is "with roots" and the roots can be > either kusala or akusala, inciting virtue or lust. Additionally, I think > in some sense "kamma" = "sankhara". This whole round of existence is > caused by desire, so that makes it all kamma result, even the desire. > Even functional cittas, including an arahant's javana cittas. Yes, beauty is the result of kamma, but it is not vipaka in the strict sense of the term. There are many things about this life that 'come with' the patisandhi citta but which do not necessarily involve direct sense-door experiences on our part: is our life an easy or a hard one, do we experience generally good health, are people generally kind and courteous to us, do we have any physical abnormalities, etc? All these and more are determined by past deeds, but are not themselves moments of vipaka. Of course, good fortune in these general things normally means a good measure of kusala vipaka too, but this does not always follow. Some people may live in generally comfortable circumstances but experience a lot of akusala vipaka in the form of painful bodily feeling (through ill-health or injury), having to endure a lot of harsh speech from relatives or colleagues, etc. Then there is the example from the texts of the person who had a lot of money but who lived in conditions of poverty because of being too stingy to spend money even on himself. As you say, beauty is the result of kamma. But the good-looking person's moment to moment vipaka is generally not related to their looks, except when their appearance is a condition for a reaction of some kind on the part of another person that manifests as a pleasant or unpleasant sense-door experience for the (good-looking) person; but in that case the 'beauty' is not the *cause* of the experience, merely one condition out of many. Jon 37145 From: Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:03am Subject: Relations [Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence] Hi, Larry and all - In a message dated 9/30/04 7:49:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Larry - > > Yet a couple more thoughts: Impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and > not-self, are nominalized terms for certain relations, I think. Impermanence > for > the relation between an earlier mindstate and a later one of a particular > feature being present in the earlier, and be absent in the later. > Unsatisfactoriness for the relation between dhammas and mindstates of not > satisfying. Not-self > for the relation of conditionality. These relations are realities, though > not > of the same sort as the paramattha dhammas related by them. For > non-arahants, > certainly for worldlings, they are known only conceptually, by inference. > For > higher ariyans, I would suspect they are know directly, by means of pa~n~na > > With metta, > Howard ============================== I think that understanding relations as they really are may be very important. We are likely, I think, to make "things" out of them in our thoughts, and that kind of reification may be even more dangerous than our reifying paramattha dhammas such as hardness and sights (visual objects). Paramattha dhammas, though dependent and not self-existent entities, are still reasonably described as actual, observable events, and there is not as much danger in thinking of them as things. But relations are different. In the same way that Nagarjuna, in his first chapter of MMK accepts conditions for phenomena as actualities, due to objectivity and regularity of preoccurrence or of co-occurrence, and their explanatory usefulness, but dismisses "causes", by which he means phenomena that have a hidden "causal power" connecting them to the "caused" phenomenon, so should we view relations as matters of objective and regular correlations that can be properly made, without any substantial "relation-things" being involved. We should treat relations in general in the same matter-of-fact way that the Buddha treated conditionality in the suttas, in terms of objectivity, regularity, dependability etc. So, there is, for example, a general preamble to one formulation of dependent origination along the lines of "When this is, that is. When this arises, that arises" - a matter-of-fact statement, without reliance on presumption of occult powers. It seems to me that this is also very much the non-substantialist flavor of the Patthana book of Abhidhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37146 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact / Phassa(d) Hi Howard Just butting in --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - ... > ================================ > The foregoing displays, I believe, a subtle difference between > Abhidhamma Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. > In the suttas, it is said that sense-door object and > (activated/energized/arisen) sense organ serve to condition > corresponding sense consciousness, > and *the coming together of the three* is contact. But here contact > seems to > be presented as a subtle, mental, kammic formation - a formation within > sankharakkhandha - which *manifests* as that convergence, i.e., which is > a needed > condition for the convergence of the three. As Nina writes, for example: > "When > there is the concurrence of body-sense, a tangible object such as > hardness and > the experience of hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact." > > Do you see the difference? In the suttas contact is the > convergence, > itself - the event of concurrence, whereas in Abhidhamma it is a dhamma > that is a condition for that. I agree that the term 'contact' is used differently in the suttas than in the Abhidhamma (and the same goes for certain other terms also). But I think if we consider each carefully it becomes apparent that there is no actual inconsistency. In the Abhidhamma, 'contact' is one of the universal cetasikas, meaning that it arises with every citta, while in the sutta passage you mention contact is used to refer to the moment when sense-door consciousness experiences the sense-door object. I think these 2 usages can sit happily together, although it may take some getting used to the 'abhidhamma' approach. Jon 37147 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Warning - controversial post / TG Hi TG Nice to see you around again ;-)). Just butting in. --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Ken H ... > There is zero evidence in the Suttas that the Buddha had any kind of > goal in > mind for us to see things as "Dhammas." (Although the opposite can be > pointed to.) I agree that the teachings are not about seeing *things* as dhammas. But I think they are very much about seeing *dhammas* as dhammas. Is this the point you are making here? I'm not sure what you mean by "the opposite can be pointed to"; perhaps you could give a reference? Jon 37148 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner21-Contact /Phassa(g) Hi again TG Hope I'm not too late to come in on this one ;-)) --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah > > A couple of questions below if you will indulge..... ... > TG: #1 Could you explain why "it has to fall away"? I'm hoping to get > actual reasons, not a statement along the lines of...."all things are > impermanent" > or that "cittas are extremely short lived." Actual reasons, and if you > don't know that's fine too. I don't have a reference to hand, but from memory the Buddha said that everything that is of the nature to arise must fall away. So things fall away because they arise. And why do they arise? Because of conditions ;-)). (Of course, this is just parrotting; I make no claim to knowledge by direct experience.) > #2 If I turn on and off a light switch, am I not forcing visual > consciousness to arise? (given that an organisim is present that can > experience visual contact.) If the eyes are open while this is going on, then visual consciousness is arising all the time, regardless of whether the light is on or off. Jon 37149 From: Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/1/04 5:18:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > My apologies to you and others for coming back on posts from a week or > more ago, but have not had a chance until now. A general holiday today > (Chinese national day) gives me a chance to do some catching up. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >========================== > > For me there is an advantage. The term 'content' (for me) lacks a > > connotation of of independence/self-existence moreso than does the term > >'object'. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Yes, and I can see that that 'experiential content' would be more > comfortable from a phenomenological point of view. ;-)) > > But 'content' may carry other connotations, such as being a part of, or > something included within, a bigger whole, in this case 'experience' > (however one understands that term, whether as a noun or a verb). Such a > way of thinking would run counter to the emphasis otherwise found in the > texts of dhammas as being at all times separately and individually > knowable to panna. It is I think significant that sense-door > consciousness and the object of sense-door consciousness are in separate > categories under various different classifications of dhammas (e.g., as > khandhas, elements, sense-bases, foundations of mindfulness), with the > emphasis on these different categories each being knowable to, and to be > known by, insight knowledge. > > Jon > ========================== The cautionary you give on the use of 'content' has merit. Language ceratinly has its problems! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37150 From: plnao Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sunrises and Sunsets - Input 2 Hello J, and all > My response is personal and not intended to cause > reaction. My current path includes "sitting" at > sunrise and sunset in the outdoors. This is my > Buddhist Altar these days and in a very urban setting. > My goal is simplicity. I don't count breaths, I don't > focus on any topic, just waiting with the sunrise and > sunset. Ph: Ah, sounds good. Simplicity appeals to me as well. I have a feeling some discussions at this group would lead one to conclude that abhidhamma is not about simplicity, but it really is if one doesn't hold on to any need to over-analyze. When I was talking with one of our members, Robert K, we agreed that ironically enough, abhidhamma has a certain affinity with zen. They are both about direct experience, a freedom from language. We give names to the paramattha dhammas that are catalogued and categorized in abhidhamma, but this is not an end in itself. When we come to consider them in daily life, it is as essences, momentary realities, not as Pali words, though there surely is some clinging to the terms. It doesn't have to stay that way. > I have had a variety of experiences and realizations > as a result with no hooks. As a personal challenge I > have been dealing with anger reactions most of my life > and in this current activity a new sense of peace and > serenity has emerged and the angry reactions are > disappearing. (I wish I could say it was perfect > but...). Ph: As I've often posted here, one of my two big hindrances is anger. Since coming across abhidhamma and with its help seeing through to a better understanding of anatta, the anger has been very, very rare, though there is no vowing not to speak angry words, like I used to, in vain. Through abhidhamma I have come to see people as they are in absolute terms, rupa and nama, and there is nothing to get angry at there. And we can hold on to an appreciation of people in conventiional terms. I feel more affection towards people than ever thanks to better understanding the way we are all in the same boat, at the mercy of conditions but doing whatever we can to deal with the hardship of being human. Abhidhamma helps me to better understand obstructions to metta. > >> Now having shared all that I am aware that there are > many paths to enlightenment and to each his own. One > might consider me an elder now in my 70s and I have > learned finally not to go where things make my brain > hurt. Mostly I am letting go of many things, that is > just my path these days. Ph: Abhidhamma is very liberating in the sense of "letting go." Yes, at times, there can be this clinging to terminology, but for someone like yourself who is fond of letting go, letting go will not be a problem. I'm pretty good at letting go here, if I say so myself. When there is a post that threatens to give me a headache, and there are many, I let go of it in a hurry and move on to.....reading my past posts! (haha) May I recommend that you let go of this group for awhile, but don't let go of abhidhamma just yet? When I first came here and was absolutely flabbergasted by the heavy discussions it was reading Nina's books that really grabbed me. I think I made a very wise decision by reading her "Perfections" along with her more well-known and, for the neophyte, a wee bit heavier going "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." Alternating a chapter at a time. And when I was into them, I came back to the group, and asked Nina some questions. She was (and still is) so kind and supportive. Certainly didn't (doesn't) make my brain hurt. Here is a contents page that contains links to the two books I mentioned. Reading them, getting into the flavour of abhidhamma through them - I have faith that you'll see that abhidhamma doesn't have to make the brain hurt. It's very liberating, very beautiful, very gentle. http://abhidhamma.org/contents.htm Metta, Phil 37151 From: Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/1/04 5:25:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Now putting aside for the moment such considerations as the possibility of > misinterpretation by others (since all of us here are alert to this danger > and can > discount it for the purpose of the present discussion), is it not correct to > say that the > citta experiences the object of citta? > ========================= No, that formulation is not one that I accept as useful. When there is the experience of hardness, what I believe is the case is that hardness is present. The hardness is rupa and its (experiential) presence is vi~n~nana [in the harmless, non-self sense]. I find speaking of a citta experiencing an object as putting forward two self-existing entities in which the first is an agent that cognizes the second, and this makes "the citta" into an actor - a homunculus, a little person". That's how I see it, and it has no appeal to me. But that's me. Obviously you see it differently. That's fine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37152 From: plnao Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 6:52am Subject: Deeds of Merit - meditation subjects in daily life Hello all, More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket available at zolag.co.uk and abhidhamma.org. "W" in the following exchange with K Sujin is Ms. Wandhana. W: Which subject among the forty meditation subjects do you think we should recollect in our daily life? Which subjects are suitable as a condition for the development of calm with the purpose of subduing defilements? This is another level of kusala besides the levels of daana, generosity, and siila, morality. S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements. W. : What are these four meditation subjects? S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 37153 From: Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact / Phassa(d) Hi, Sarah - I had spent about 25 minutes in crafting a detailed reply to the following post of yours, the gist of which was to stick by my seeing a difference on thos point between sutta and abhidhamma, and before sending it, Windows froze up and I lost my post. At htis point, I really don't have the "stomach" to attempt to recover what I had written, so I'm going to let it go, at least for now. Sorry. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/1/04 6:35:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > Hi Howard &All, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >>[Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] > >>***** > >> We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length > >>sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning > >>contact: > >> > >>-This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when > >>-there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will > >>-recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... > >> > >>When there is the concurrence of the ear, sound and > >hearing-consciousness, > >>there is the manifestation of ear-contact. When there is the > <...> > H:> The foregoing displays, I believe, a subtle difference between > >Abhidhamma Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. > > In the suttas, it is said that sense-door object and > >(activated/energized/arisen) sense organ serve to condition > >corresponding sense consciousness, > >and *the coming together of the three* is contact. But here contact > >seems to > >be presented as a subtle, mental, kammic formation - a formation within > >sankharakkhandha - which *manifests* as that convergence, i.e., which is > >a needed > >condition for the convergence of the three. As Nina writes, for example: > >"When > >there is the concurrence of body-sense, a tangible object such as > >hardness and > >the experience of hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact." > .... > S: I think it depends how the suttas are understood again. > >*the coming together of the three* is contact. > > Simply put, without an experiencing of the object with the mental factor > phassa contacting the object, there would be no 'coming together'. The > rupas would not be experienced. Remember, rupas are only experienced. Nina > already replied and I'd like you to take another look at a post I wrote > ages ago to you on phassa, concerning > some arguments of Prof Kalupahana's which I thought were inaccurate. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27298 > > Please let me know if you're still not satisfied as I think it's an > important area, esp. as we're almost at the end of the ch on phassa > cetasika. > > You mention in the suttas that 'contact is the convergence', but remember, > we're talking about realities/actualities and the only realities here are > cittas, cetasikas and rupas. So which would such a convergence be? > > By the way, I thought your answer to TG on the 'why' qu was very good > (37001) and thank you for helping out there;-).TG, let me know if there > was anything else. No entity, but there is a reality, phassa, which has > particular characteristics different from other mental factors, touching > or contacting the object. The characteristic of contacting is phassa. > > On your discussion with RobM on 'whatever in the cosmos....'That do I > know'. Whatever the Buddha puts his mind to, that he knows with his > omniscient wisdom. > > metta, > > Sarah > p.s we briefly discussed the bhikkhu giving up ties to family etc and you > mentioned the Buddha. Perhaps we can say, giving up all ties of a > household nature or as a family member, don't you think? > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37154 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 7:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Pleasant Abiding, Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, N: Also someone who is a sukkhavipassaka, with dry insight, experiences > nibbaana with samaadhi of the degree of attainment concentration. The reason ...snip... and develop understanding ourselves. You are always an example for me,having so much equanimity, not minding whether people react or not, or even when they dislike what you write. With appreciation, Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your kind words and reply to me. May you be free from any suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37155 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 8:37am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 23 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, All jhanas have been discussed as a basic level. In terms of jhana factors jhanas are classified to have 5 jhanas. All arupa jhanas do have the same jhana factors like 5th rupa jhana. So all arupa jhanas can be assumed as 5th rupa jhanas. Other classification is that there are 4 rupa jhanas and 4 arupa jhanas. So there are in total 8 jhanas. When rupa jhanas are said to exist as 4 in number, it is in accordance with suttanta dhamma or suttanta pitaka. These 4 rupa jhanas are also fit with rupa jhana bhumis. More importantly, it is more practical to count rupa jhanas as four rather than five. Because when the 1st jhana is contemplated and higher jhanas are tried, it is hard to leave only vitakka jhana factor. When it is tried, vicara seems to leave jhana and it is sound like that after 1st jhana, 3rd jhana is achieved. But when counted as 4 rupa jhanas, it fits with four. This series 'Jhana Journey' is started with 'Odata' kasina or while kasina. Those who have achieved 5th rupa jhana, it is not hard to attain all rupa jhanas with other kasinas. When odata kasina or white kasina has been preactised well and the practitioner is proficient in white kasina developing jhana, then he can start other kasinas as well. Other colour kasinas are lohita kasina or red colour kasina, pita kasina or golden colour or yellow colour kasina, nila kasina or brown colour kasina. These kasinas have to be started from the initial stage that is cultivating on parikamma nimitta which is real visual object right in front of the eyes. As the practitioner has already attained all jhanas, this initiation does not take long and soon uggaha nimitta arises. At that time his concentration or samadhi is said to be paikamma samadhi or preparatory ocncentration. From this nimitta, there arise another nimitta in mind that is very similar to uggaha nimitta or mental image. That new image appearing in the mind is called patibhaga nimitta or counter image. As soon as this patibhaga nimitta arises, the samadhi of the practitioner is called upacara samadhi or proximate concentration. At that time there is no more hindrances. As he has had all jhana, it does not take long to develop appana samadhi and soon he develops the 1st jhana with a new colour kasina. As in case of odata kasina or white kasina, he has to contemplate, access and dwell, determine, emerge, and scrutinize on the achieved jhana and through these exercises, the weakest factor in jhana is found and he tries to remove it from the jhana factors and this leads to higher and higher jhana and finally he attains the 5th rupa jhana with that new kasina. After completion of 4 colour kasinas of white, red, yellow, and brown or odata, lohita, pita and nila, then he moves to 4 elementary kasinas one after another. These four elementary kasinas are earth kasina or pathavi kasina, fire kasina or tejo kasina, wind kasina or vayo kasina, and water kasina or apo kasina. For completeness, he has to try another 2 kasinas. One is aloka kasina or light spot kasina and another kasina is akasa kasina or bounded space kasina. After complettion of all 10 kasinas jhana practitioner is ready to refine all of his jhanas through repeated exercise and practice. Asubha kammatthana can give rise to 1st jhana as does kayagatasati kammatthana. Anapanassati kammatthana can give rise to full jhanas that is all 5 rupa jhanas. Metta, karuna, mudita brahmavihara kammatthanas can give rise to up to 4th rupa jhanas. After proficiency of 4th rupa jhana has been achieved, the practitioner has to practise upekkha brahmavihara to develop 5th rupa jhana. Aruppa kammatthanas can practised only by those who have attained all rupa jhana and have practised kasina kammatthanas. As has been described, the 1st arupa jhana arises when the 5th rupa jhana object has been removed and voided leaving boundless space. From this 1st arupa jhana, other three arupa jhana have to arise without any rupa as bases. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37156 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 8:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Deeds of Merit - importance of samatha Hey Phil, > Ph> ...because wholesome and unwholesome factors always arise pell-mell. Yep, it is all just passing thru. ---- > > Ph> People who decide to develop jhanas because they know that if > they don't they won't get the full benefits of the Buddha's > teaching. There is self seeking benefits, I'm sure, a lot of the > time. E> OK Phil, I touched on this with Sukin. There are > Right Aspirations that can come from 'self'. If the > conceit 'I Am' is not eradicated till Arahantship, then > EVERYONE before that operates from 'self'. There is either > good kamma or bad kamma at this stage. Wanting (chanda) good > things (jhana) at this stage is a wholesome desire. Ph: Thanks for putting this so succinctly. It's something I've babbled at great length to Sarah about, without ever reaching a conclusion. Technically speaking, this "I am" wrong view is eradicated at Sotapanna rather than Arahant, if I'm not mistaken, but even then I see your point. That is personality view. The conceit 'I Am' is the last to go according to the books. pH> But understanding this in theory and sitting like I have done at times in recent weeks and feeling downright silly to be doing such an unnatural, results-oriented activity is different. I hear you. Then sit with that. 'Who' feels this? Why should this arise if one is just being quiet with oneself. I mean, what is so silly to be alone with just Phil? For me, I can create rapture. I have developed a skill whereby I do not depend upon any outside object for my 'pleasure'. There is an innate satisfaction within the mind that is not dependent upon the 'external' world. (This took a few years to cultivate while sitting.) Seeing this has allowed me to loosen my grasp on the entices of the world. I find during the day that my awareness hovers close to the body and that feeling of goodness is there. No need to go looking for it. PH> But yes, I do see what you mean. I think there is possibly value in this kind of aspiration, even if fuelled by self. At the beginning. Stress on possibly. I really don't know yet. I think the purpose of this post for me was to remind myself that it would be wrong to close the door to any new directions in understanding that come my way. Conditions may arise that find me sitting again. I am open to it. It is a hard practice. It is so much easier to go from sense object to thought looking for the things that please us. The mind fights hard to be trained giving every excuse imaginable. Maybe I will go for a walk or turn on the TV or call a friend or read a book. Diversion upon diversion. Who wants to sit down close the eyes and just watch (boring!) and do battle with the hindrances. But there is no way around it, the 'self' must be dismantled and seen thru. If anyone else knows a shortcut, I am all ears! >> PH: The reason I have trouble sitting now is that I clearly sense > self behind it. E> Fine, sit with that. Learn about that and then > try and deconstruct that sense of self in whatever > fashion you find it. Ph: I can see this too. When I was sitting with attention on the breath there were some moments when I sensed how everything hinged on the next breath, and it gave me some very helpful (although crude) insight into the three characteristics. That is right. But what is interesting is we can use the inconstancy to create a wholesome state of mind. It seems you have to get to the unconditioned via the wholesome. --- E> "Deconstruct that sense of self in whatever fashion you find fit." Ph>That's a good line. That's what we're all trying to do, and we should respect and encourage each other no matter whether we sit, stand walk or run. Indeed! PEACE E 37157 From: Ken O Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] On how to attend to the breath Hi Nori why observe the breath only. Do you mean the other six senses are not working while you are awake. :) dont get stuck to breath because when your attention goes to the other senses, they also exhibit the same characterisitcs as anatta and anicca. thats all Ken O 37158 From: Ken O Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Dighanakha To each his own. Even if we will to write till the cow comes home, it will not a single difference to say these are reliable or not. Anyway most of the texts are written after a few centuries - so what is reliable - only one understanding and faith from the text we read. Only then we can say which reliable and that I leave you to your discretion. I always find it a tedious task to explain authenticity of text as I am not interest in dhamma as a historian or an intellect, I am a practitioner. It difficult to accept abdhidhamma because there is little faith due to historical reason and not because of our open minded to try to understand its value. My personal opinion, in fact, a lot of sutta cannot be translated into english without the help of Abdhidhamma because it was Abdhidhamma that explain the term in the concise manner not found in any other texts. Ken O --- dighanakha wrote: > Hello Robert. > > R> I understand that you wish to prove that the commentaries > R> composed by Buddhaghosa and also the earlier texts such as > R> Milindapanha are not to be trusted > > In the case of the Milindapanha I did not seek to prove anything > about the work as a whole. I discussed only the Amara Dialogue, > in response to Sarah asking what I thought of it. > > Whether the work as a whole can be trusted depends on what you > mean by this. On this list I notice that terms like > 'trustworthy', 'authentic', 'genuine' -- and their opposites -- > are often tossed about with very little precision; texts are > designated by one or another of these terms without the writer > making it clear just what he means by them. > > On the most plausible interpretation of the evidence, the Pali > Milindapanha is a composite text. It consists of an older portion > (parts II & III, and a small section of part I) and a later one > (parts IV to VII and the legendary material in part I). The older > portion can probably be trusted as an accurate account of how the > Dhamma was understood by the 1st century Sarvastivadins of > Kashmir. The later portion is a Southern Indian or Sinhalese > appendage and can probably be trusted as an accurate account of > how the Dhamma was understood in Anuradhapura in the 5th > century, and perhaps for a century and a half before this. > > But if by 'trustworthy' you mean is it faithful to the Buddha's > teaching, then I would say that this needs to be decided on a > dialogue-by-dialogue basis. My overall assessment is that most of > the positions defended by "Nagasena" are faithful to the Suttas, > but in the Sinhalese sections they are often defended by patently > dishonest arguments. Fortunately the author's eristic > repertoire is fairly narrow, so an alert reader should have no > problem separating the wheat from the chaff. > > From an historian's point of view the value of the Milindapanha > (or rather, of sections II & III of it) is that it provides a > glimpse of an important midway stage in the development of > Buddhist doctrine: the great councils have been concluded, all > the non-Mahayana schools have closed their canons, but Abhidharma > is still mainly a categorial affair; systematic Abhidharma, such > as one finds in the Mahavihara Commentaries, is barely in its > infancy. So here the Milindapanha can be trusted as an important > historical source. > > Moving on now to Buddhaghosa. Rather than confine ourselves to > him, perhaps it would be more convenient just to speak of the > Mahavihara commentators (MaCs) en bloc, since the points of > disagreement between Buddhaghosa, Dhammapala and Mahanama > are not very substantial. > > Here too it is not my intention to prove that these authors > "cannot be trusted." I am too much of a vibhajjavadin to resort > to such a blanket judgment about authors whose writings range > over such a huge field. The following is a brief summary of > what I would consider worthwhile and worthless in these writers' > oevre: > > GRAMMAR: completely reliable. > > I seldom study a Sutta without having its commentary at my elbow. > The MaCs were excellent grammarians and I rarely have reason to > doubt the way that they unravel the syntax of a complex sentence > or analyse the case relations in a compound word. > > WORD EXPLANATIONS: of mixed reliability. > > Reliable when they are doing exegesis (drawing out the meaning > that words and phrases would have had for the Buddha's audience); > unreliable when doing eisegesis (reading what they want into a > text). To ascertain which is which one needs to study the history > of the development of Buddhist thought so as to know which ideas > are early and which evolved later. > > BUDDHIST HISTORY: highly unreliable. > > The MaCs were not Herodotuses. The Mahavamsa, the historical > portions of the Samantapasadika and the Kathavatthu Commentary > should be read not as history but as sectarian legend aimed at > painting their own side white and their rivals black. If one is > concerned with truth rather than just finding confirmation for > the things one already believes, then Buddhist history should be > learned from those who have taken into account the full range of > historically relevant data. Lamotte's History of Indian Buddhism > is probably the best place to begin. > > VINAYA: mostly reliable. > > Occasionally Buddhaghosa appears intent on proving the > correctness of the received manner of Vinaya observance of the > Mahavihara, no matter how at odds this is with the Buddha's own > adjudications. But such cases are exceptional; mostly his opinions > are reasonable and his jurisprudence sound. > > SUTTA: of mixed reliability. > > See remark above on exegesis vs eisegesis. Besides their > eisegesis, another cause of unreliability is the MaCs' > humourlessness, philistinism, and literalistic treatment > of the rhetorical and satirical devices the Buddha > sometimes employs. > > ABHIDHAMMA: almost completely unreliable. > > The Abhidhamma of the Abhidhamma Pitaka and that of the MaCs > share many of the same terms but otherwise have virtually nothing > to do with each other. Canonical Abhidhamma is a work of genius; > the Commentarial system, reduced to its essential features, could > have been concocted by any third-rate thinker familiar with Plato > and Locke, without knowing anything about Buddhism at all. > > HARD SCIENCES & SOCIAL THEORY: completely unreliable. > > The MaCs' contribution to the sciences clearly bears the stamp of > its time and appears to be the product of speculation rather than > observation, or else is just the reporting of received opinion > and prejudice. Whether this has any serious consequences for what > they have to say on the Dhamma is an interesting question. It > seems to me that it does at least throw their conception of > paramattha dhammas into a parlous state. Every paramattha dhamma, > it is claimed, has a sabhava. And that sabhava is partly > constituted by the dhamma's NAME. Not just any old name that > people might care to give it, but its name in the dialect of > Magadha, which is its true and absolute name. How seriously can > one take a claim like this, coming as it does in the very same > paragraph as a claim that Magadhan is the root language of all > living beings and will be spoken by wolf-children? > > I need to go out now, and will continue later with the rest of > your post. > > Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker > _____________________________ > Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: > 'everything is not pleasing to me.' > (Dighanakha Sutta) 37159 From: Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] On how to attend to the breath Hi, Ken (and Nori) - In a message dated 10/1/04 12:58:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Nori > > why observe the breath only. Do you mean the other six senses are > not working while you are awake. :) > > dont get stuck to breath because when your attention goes to the > other senses, they also exhibit the same characterisitcs as anatta > and anicca. > > thats all > > Ken O > ============================ It is a matter of cultivating increased calm and concentration, which in turn enable greater mental clarity. Indeed, the calm and equanimity resulting from the 4th jhana are optimal for investigation of dhammas, according to the Buddha. But breath as primary area of focus is not entirely unique. Bodily sensations is a wonderful area of restricted attention. Breath is special in some ways, but not unique. One way in which breath is special is the following: When attending to breath, as calm increases the breath becomes more subtle and fine. That increased subtlety calls for greater attention in order to maintain clarity, which then leads to still greater calm and concentration. Continuing in this fashion makes the mind quite powerful and a fit instrument. Another advantage of the breath as object as compared to kasinas and mantras, for example, is that breath arises on its own, not requiring volition for its maintainence. Also, as mental clarity grows, the breath as conventional object is seen through to the actual constituents of earth, air, fire, and water, to use old-fashioned terminology. On the other hand, much Ch'an meditation is along the lines of choiceless awareness that you are urging, Ken, and I agree that there is much sense to that. However, I think that choiceless awareness is actually a more advanced form of meditation, one which is suitable when following, piggy-backed upon, a more focussed mode of meditating, or which is suitable adopted by a person who has, by prior cultivation, reached a stage at which the mind is continually a powerful enough tool to make good direct use of it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37160 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew L, op 27-09-2004 18:15 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > AL: So there has to be another way to >>> acquire this right view. I won't say I know how to do it, but the >>> same goes for view of mother and father, possibly that of there > being >>> this world and the next world. It seems there should be some > kind of >>> direct understanding or vision of things as they are. N: I came across a text about father and mother. M.III, no 117, The Great Forty. This is about different kinds of right view. Right understanding of kamma and vipaaka. At least we know now the meaning of this sentence. I have to be off, Nina. 37161 From: plnao Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 4:13pm Subject: Perfections - "no need to think I have to develop determination" Hello all Another brief passage from Nina's "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" http://abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm "The Bodhisatta did not merely think "I resolve to attain Buddhahood", he developed all the conditions to reach the goal, he developed understanding of the realities appearing at the present moment. He was resolute with regard to the present moment. We need determination for the development of all the perfections; determination serves as their foundation. The perfections have to be developed together with right understanding of nama and rupa, so that there will be conditions to eventually attain enlightenment. Where there is mindfulness of the nama or rupa which appears now we actually develop the perfection of determination, aditthana, without there being the need to think, "I have to develop determination." PH: "Where there is mindfulness of the nama or rupa which appears now we actually develop the perfection of determination, aditthana, without there being the need to think, "I have to develop determination." Reading this makes me wonder what the difference is between the perfection of determination, and that of energy, because the description o the perfection off energy that follows later in the book is almost identical to the above sentence, if I recall correctly. Metta, Phil 37162 From: Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika. Hi Matt, I've been trying to think of why we would like something that arises with a neutral feeling and the only thing I can come up with is we like it because we like the pleasant feeling of liking it. This happens occasionally but generally it is an unsatisfactory answer. One thing I am pretty sure of is we don't particularly like neutral feeling and we almost always like pleasant feeling. Is there anything other than pleasant feeling that is likable, not counting pervisions? If so, what's to like about it? Larry 37163 From: Andrew Levin Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 4:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hi Andrew > Re: Perfections Phil, I also think the perfections are very inspiring and can sort of differentiate us from those 'every-day lifers' as people who abide in these virtues or good qualities of human kind instead of the usual. For me, renunciation means not looking out for hamburgers and sex, as I've been told is very important and normal, but abiding to seek a higher happiness. I imagine the other pefections are very similar. > > I think what the Buddha taught more explicitly about what we need to work > on are the 37 factors. I googled them: > > 37 Factors of Enlightenment or Wings of Awakening > (bodhipakkhiya-dhammá) > The set of teachings that the Buddha himself said formed the heart of his > message. > Four Foundations of Mindfulness (satipatthana) > Four Right Efforts (sammappadhana) > Four Bases of Power (iddhipada) > Five Faculties (indriya) > Five Strengths (bala) > Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga) > Eight Fold Path (ariya-magga) > Right on. As I've planned on practising from a commentary by Venerable U. Silananda, it's the four foundations of mindfulness, which includes the seven factors of enlightenment and ways of cultivating each, eg contemplation on the woeful states for energy, contemplation on the triple gem or recollection of the deities or virtue for rapture, and the Noble Eightfold Path in the contemplation of dhammas. -a.l. 37164 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 6:11pm Subject: Science/Truth (1)Herman, Dighanka Dear Herman and Dighanaka and all, I started this letter to Herman because I think he feels the Dhamma should be amenable to western science. Herman:"As long as I can think scientifically, I will apply scientific standards, ". I have to be upfront and say I am not especially impressed by science. It is surely the outstanding cutural achievement of the west - but when I compare it with the Dhamma of the Buddha it seems more like stamp collecting than an investigation into what is real and crucial. I am also convinced that the ancient sangha, including the monks at the Mahavihara in Sri lanka preserved the true Dhamma: I value their words far, far more than that of historians of the 20th century. Now to the main discussion. Herman, you have written that you don't believe in rebirth. You might identify with the words of the Buddhist writer Steven Batchelor. He thinks that the modern Buddhist does not look for Buddhism to answer questions about "where we came from, where we are going, what happens after death…but would seek such knowledge in the appropriate domains: astrophysics, evolutionary biology, neuroscience, etc." (1997, p.18). He finds it "odd that a practice concerned with anguish and the ending of anguish should be obliged to adopt ancient Indian metaphysical theories and thus accept as an article of faith that consciousness cannot be explained in terms of brain function" (p.37). However, Batchelors reliance on science for answers about what happens after death etc. has its own problems. Scientists, despite their metaphysically neutral pose, operate with certain assumptions about life: i.e. they have views. And the dominant view in science at this time is that the universe and life was a chance occurence. The big bang occured (no one knows why or what were the conditions ) and then a billion or so years later it happened that this matter came together to form stars and planets. On one planet, earth, it happened, purely by chance, that there were the right elements and conditions to form amino acids. These then formed complex proteins, which later formed bacteria. Life all arose out of matter. The fact that even a tiny cell is an incredibly complex organism (indeed so complex that scientists cannot make even one, despite all their technology) is not a hindrance to this view. Why? Well, as biologist Richard Lewontin explains: "We have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism..... we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." (from Lewontin's review of The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, Carl Sagan, in the New York Review of Books, January 9, 1997). Recently Dighanaka gave us a link to one of Richard Dawkins (Oxford prof., Fellow of the Royal society) book, and it is useful to know what Dawkins beliefs are as I want to compare them later with Dighanaka's comments about the Aganna sutta. Dawkins writes that in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe to be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, pp.132-133). And "the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pointless indifference." (quoted in Easterbrook, 1997, p.892). In case anyone thinks Dawkins ideas are idiosyncratic I quote some more leading Biologists/scientists: George Gaylord Simpson: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (1967, pp.344-345). Jacques Monod: "Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, lies at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution...." (Monod, 1972, p.110); and "Man at last knows that he is alone in the unfeeling immensity of the universe, out of which he emerged by chance." (p.167) As Futuyma explains: "By coupling undirected, purposeless variation to the blind, uncaring process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous. Darwin's theory of evolution was a crucial plank in the platform of mechanism and materialism-of much of science, in short-that has since been the stage of most Western thought." (Futuyma, 1986, p.2). So this is where we (the 'west') have arrived at in our thinking. It is not a pretty, or even philosphically sound, place in my opinion. More in the next post. RobertK 37165 From: Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 6:00pm Subject: object of jhana/ Htoo Hi Htoo, You may find this of interest. Perhaps Nina or Suan could give Pali references since you probably don't have this translation. Visuddhimagga III, 117 'As to object': of these forty meditation subjects, twenty-two have counterpart signs as object, that is to say, the ten kasinas, the ten kinds of foulness, mindfulness of breathing, and mindfulness occupied with the body; the rest do not have counterpart signs as object. Then twelve have states consisting in individual essences as object, that is to say, eight of the ten recollections-- except mindfulness of breathing and mindfulness occupied with the body--. the perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, the defining of the elements, the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception; and twenty-two have [counterpart] signs as object, that is to say, the ten kasinas, the ten kinds of foulness, mindfulness of breathing, and mindfulness occupied with the body; while the remaining six have 'not-so-classifiable'32 objects. Then eight have mobile objects in the early stage though the counterpart is stationary, that is to say, the festering, the bleeding, the worm-infested, mindfulness of breathing, the water kasina, the fire kasina, the air kasina, and in the case of the light kasina the object consisting of a circle of sunlight, etc.; the rest have immobile objects. This is 'as to object'. ----------------------- Note 32. Na-vattaba-- 'not so classifiable' is an Abhidhamma shorthand term for something that, when considered under one of the triads or dyads of the Abhidhamma Maatikaa (Dhs., p. 1f.) cannot be placed under any one of the three, or two, headings. Larry 37166 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (1)Herman, Dighanka --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > (snip) > So this is where we (the 'west') have arrived at in our thinking. It > is not a pretty, or even philosphically sound, place in my opinion. > > RobertK Hallo RobertK Joop: The world, this planet, any planet, is not a pretty, or even philosphically sound, place at all. That's one fact; the second is that neo-darwinism and other 'results' of natural science are only theories: the best model to explain different physical phenomena. Of course the man you quoted have to big ego's, but that's not important. Your way of reasoning is past-oriented, it's the same way of reasoning as american christian-fundamentalists have. I prefer a future-directed one in which new knowledge and old knowledge (=the Tipitaka) are combined. Perhaps you have ever read about the 'Mind and Life' conferences in which the Dailai Lama invites the best natural scientist in the world to discuss with him the relation between science and buddhism. See http://www.mindandlife.org/ It's a pity Tibetan buddhism has such activities and Theravada hardly. Metta Joop 37167 From: plnao Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika.nama/rupa Hi Matt Thanks for this. I'm learning (and relearning) a lot from your posts. > P:> As far as I know, abhidhamma says that the sense processes are the same, > whether it's seeing, say, or hearing, or smell. But we know from science and > we can confirm from our own experience that the olfactory sense follows a > different path in the brain than other senses. > > ========================== > > Citta is diverted to a particular sense-door, which is different to the > other > sense-doors. The citta that experiences the object in one door cannot > experience an object in any of the other doors and the sense door process > that follows can only happen in that door not in any other. That's makes > them all different and they follow different paths. Well, I guess it's in the emotive area, in mental feeling, that the olfactory reaction is different. Or in terms of the rupa of the sense organ. I really wouldn't want to think too deeply about it - that's not my way. But it seems to me that the olfactory sense process is different in some dramatic emotive way from hearing, for example, and that the difference can't be explained by Dhamma, only by science, that this is not due to accumulations, because it is the same for all people - it is based on neurology. I guess my point was that we needn't be distracted from the truth of Dhamma if it doesn't click with out investigation of phenomena from a scientific angle. Dhamma is a system of beliefs that liberates people from suffering. It's beyond science, in that sense. So I guess I believe in "Buddhism without 'Buddhism without Beliefs' " ;) Metta, Phil P.S This is not directed at you, Matt, or anyone in particular. No need to reply. 37168 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (2)Herman, Dighanka ---Dear Herman, Dighanaka, Joop and all, (Herman thnaks for your off-list comments and encouragement to continue writing about this) Joop replied to my earlier http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37164 post and said "Your way of reasoning is past-oriented, it's the same way of reasoning as american christian-fundamentalists have". It does seem primitive does it not? Among the many sophisticated people of the contemporary world there are still are few stubborn (and some would say simple-minded) folk who take to heart the teachings of the ancients. Could they even be dangerous, after all Plato recommended execution for for anyone refusing to see the impossibility of matter alone producing life! (Plato Laws 909a). What if the Buddhist worldview caught on and people like me got in power! But I think we do not need to worry about this, the sasana is in a slow decline, I think it will be gradually diluted and mixed with other ideas (I hope this comment explains why I am not keen on your idea Joop: "I prefer a future-directed one in which new knowledge and old knowledge (=the Tipitaka) are combined""). Anyway I want to go back to the Aganna sutta and the comments Dighanaka made. Digha Nikaya, Aganna sutta: "Now there comes a time, Vasettha, when after a long period of time this world contracts [and is eventually destroyed]. When the world contracts beings are for the most part born in the realm of Radiance There they exist made of mind, feeding on joy, self-luminous, moving through the air, constantly beautiful; thus they remain for a long, long time. [ In this realm there is no mattter they are arupa sattas ] Now there comes a time, Vasettha, when after a long period of time this world[starts again and] expands. When the world expands beings for the most part fall from the realm of Radiance and come here [to this realm]; and they exist made of mind, feeding on joy, self- luminous, moving through the air, constantly beautiful; thus they remain for a long, long time. "" Dighanaka said about the Aganna sutta that "Richard Gombrich has shown beyond any reasonable doubt that the Sutta is a lively and ingenious parody , Buddhaghosa, unfortunately, saw neither the joke nor the allegory of the Aganna Sutta, took the whole thing literally, and left the Theravada tradition saddled with a creation story so laughable it makes the creationism of Christian fundamentalists seem like sound science.""enquote from Dighanaka. There goes that 'Christian fundamentalists' comparison again,( I am starting to sympathise with them). Actually I find it very implausible that the Aganna sutta was a joke or parody and think Buddhaghosa understood it well. We should remember that the Buddha only gave the merest hints of how universes arise and pass away. He wasn't trying to prove anything - especially not in a way acceptable to scientific methodology. But what we can take from the aganna sutta is (different from either Christian beliefs of a God who created it all, or scientic views of chance happenings,) that it all occurs due to various conditions and that there is no beginning to the arising and passing away. For the scientific minded perhaps they could also wonder about the mention of each universe unfolding after it begins and much much later contracting. Current astronomers are locked in a debate as to whether the universe will continue to expand and eventually completely fly apart - or whether it will reach equilibirum and then contract back in. The speed at which it is moving is so close to the balance point that nobody is sure which way it will go. (RobK is betting the house that those who say it will eventually fold in are right). Now I don't pretend to understand it all- I might have this wrong - , my main position is along the lines of Jon who recently said: "There are a number of statements in both the suttas and commentaries that taken literally would be inconsistent with modern scientific knowledge ..However, I do not consider that these differences lessen the reliability of the teachings on doctrinal matters. I tend to assume, based on my experience to date, that a clearer meaning will emerge in due course as understanding is further developed. ...it wouldn't for me be a cause for any doubt about the worth of the commentaries as a whole, because I find them to be totally consistent when it comes to doctrinal matters."" endquote from Jon. More to come later RobertK 37169 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 102 and Tiika.nama/rupa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > > ========================== > > > > Citta is diverted to a particular sense-door, which is different to the > > other > > sense-doors. The citta that experiences the object in one door cannot > > experience an object in any of the other doors and the sense door process > > that follows can only happen in that door not in any other. That's makes > > them all different and they follow different paths. > > > Well, I guess it's in the emotive area, in mental feeling, that the > olfactory reaction is different. > Or in terms of the rupa of the sense organ. I really wouldn't want to think > too deeply > about it - that's not my way. But it seems to me that the olfactory sense > process is different in some > dramatic emotive way from hearing, for example, and that the difference > can't be explained > by Dhamma, only by science, ++++++++ Dear Matt and Phil, I have to say I can't detect any behavioural difference between the way the processes occur at the different doors. As Matt said they are all completely different doors. The Abhidhamma explains it for sure. RobertK p.s Matt - I wonder about using the wording "Citta is diverted to a particular sense-door". I know what you mean but it sounds like one citta moving from here to there when we know in fact that completely different cittas arise at each door. 37170 From: Egbert Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (2)Herman, Dighanka Hi Rob and all, I'm very relieved you got my reply :-). I realised after the fact that I had composed it while logged in as one of my chess-playing identities, which is not a member of DSG. By rights the software shouldn't have allowed me to post, but it did, and I thought I'd end up having to rewrite the thing again. It never seems as interesting the second time around :-) Back to the business at hand. > It does seem primitive does it not? Among the many sophisticated > people of the contemporary world there are still are few stubborn > (and some would say simple-minded) folk who take to heart the > teachings of the ancients. I'm sure you would recognise that there are many ancient traditions amongst many different cultures. I cannot see why any tradition would have a monopoly on insight into the nature of reality, though I can understand the psychology behind a tradition making such a claim. > Digha Nikaya, Aganna sutta: "Now there comes a time, Vasettha, when > after a long period of time this world contracts [and is eventually > destroyed]. When the world contracts beings are for the most part > born in the realm of Radiance There they exist made of mind, feeding on joy, self-luminous, moving through the air, constantly beautiful; > thus they remain for a long, long time. > [ In this realm there is no mattter they are arupa sattas ] Just wondering, the air these beings move through, is it not material? I can forgive the ancients for not considering air to be material, but we know otherwise, don't we? > "There are a number of statements in both the suttas and > commentaries that taken literally would be inconsistent with modern scientific knowledge ..However, I do not > consider that these differences lessen the reliability of the > teachings on doctrinal matters. I tend to assume, based on my experience to date, that a clearer meaning will emerge in due course as understanding is further developed. ...it wouldn't for me be a cause for any doubt about the worth of the commentaries as a whole, because I find them to be totally consistent when it comes to doctrinal matters."" Again I would say that there are many traditions with many doctrines. There is only (a common) reality, though, and to the extent a tradition or doctrine models reality well, such doctrines may well serve to alleviate the reality of suffering that comes to be recognised by all at some point of time. Buddhism as psychology is priceless, but Buddhism as science has been superceded a long, long time ago. Kind Regards Herman 37171 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (2)Herman, Dighanka --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > > Digha Nikaya, Aganna sutta: "Now there comes a time, Vasettha, > when > > after a long period of time this world contracts [and is > eventually > > destroyed]. When the world contracts beings are for the most part > > born in the realm of Radiance There they exist made of mind, > feeding on joy, self-luminous, moving through the air, constantly > beautiful; > > thus they remain for a long, long time. > > [ In this realm there is no mattter they are arupa sattas ] > > Just wondering, the air these beings move through, is it not > material? I can forgive the ancients for not considering air to be > material, but we know otherwise, don't we? > > +++++++ Hi herman, Without looking at the pali I assume this must be a misunderstanding by the translator. Whatever the pali word is it can't - at least in this context - mean anything material like air. robk 37172 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 6:04am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (3)Herman, Joop Dear Herman, Joop and all, Some more on science. Herman: There are many people who understand that there is no self at the > helm of all that takes place. David Hume, for one, wrote about this at > length. It is not a slight on the Buddha to suggest that others come to > similar realizations as him, independently'' As you say Hume did reach conclusions that bear some (superficial) resemblance to the teaching of anatta. "for my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other…I never can catch myself without a perception, and never can observe anything but the perception" (Hume). However, anatta in Dhamma is tied in with conditionality, absolutely and intimately. Because of conditions such as kamma there must be results and then other conditions coming together to assist the kamma to give results. So , in a continuous stream there is the round of vipaka, kamma and kilesa - all showing anatta and conditionality. Thus anatta is not merely a simple negation of self - it is deep and reveals the very workings of what life is. It shatters illusion but it doesn't in any way lead to ethical nihilism because while there are still conditions there must be rebirth and the fruition of results.I would say kamma and rebirth are unavoidable aspects of anatta. And the incredible thing is someone (the Buddha) could comprehand the various conditioned and conditioning factors with detail and precision. Far, far above any ideas Hume ever had. Joop :"Perhaps you have ever read about the 'Mind and Life' conferences in which the Dailai Lama invites the best natural scientist in the world to discuss with him the relation between science and buddhism."" Yes I have - he meets with a few scientists who have an interest in Buddhism and they discuss consciouness and mind. I think these are great for those scientists but it would be very much a one-way street as I doubt science has much to offer Buddhism with regard to insight into mind. Philosopher of mind Collin McGinn writes in his summary of the different ideas: "The head spins in theoretical disarray; no explanatory model suggests itself; bizarre ontologies loom. There is a feeling of intense confusion, but no clear idea of where the confusion lies" (1993,). My favourite quote is the definition of consciousness in the International Dictionary of Psychology: "Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon; it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written about it" (cited in Crick, 1994, vii) RobertK 37173 From: plnao Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 6:04am Subject: Deeds of Merit - listening to Dhamma will never be old-fashioned Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri3.html We now move to the final two deeds of merit to be considered - listening to Dhamma, and teaching Dhamma. S. : If people with a citta full of confidence in the Triple Gem go to the Temple in order to listen to the Dhamma and study the Dhamma, no matter whether in the Buddhas time, today or at any time, this is actually listening to the Dhamma which the Buddha penetrated at the time of his enlightenment and which he taught to others. Therefore, Buddhists should know that listening to the Dhamma and studying it is not something which is outdated. People who are not up to date do not know this, whereas people who know what listening to the Dhamma really means are not old fashioned. And what is more important, knowledge of the Dhamma is knowledge of the Truth the Buddha penetrated at the time of his enlightenment and preached to others, because he wished in his great compassion to help those who are living in this world. Knowledge of the Dhamma which the Buddha taught is more excellent than all the knowledge one can acquire from other people. (end quote) Ph: " people with a citta full of confidence in the Triple Gem..." This is what it all comes down to. We have it, or we don't. I would guess "citta full of" is not quite the correct way to put it, though.... Metta, Phil 37174 From: Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Science/Truth (3)Herman, Joop Hi, Robert - In a message dated 10/2/04 9:04:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > ... anatta in Dhamma is tied in with conditionality, absolutely > and intimately. Because of conditions such as kamma there must be > results and then other conditions coming together to assist the > kamma to give results. So , in a continuous stream there is the > round of vipaka, kamma and kilesa - all showing anatta and > conditionality. Thus anatta is not merely a simple negation of self - > it is deep and reveals the very workings of what life is. ========================== Very well said, Robert. I consider this point to be so important - the intimate connection between anatta and conditionality - that I snipped the foregoing out of the context of your post as a whole for purposes of emphasis. Dependent origination, both in its specific 12-link scheme of dependent origination of dukkha and in its general form of conditionality lies at the core of the Buddha's teaching, both within the Theravada and Mahayana traditions as does anattata/su~n~nata (shunyata) - its other face. While writing, I think I'll take this opportunity to mention a thought that has occurred to me. I put this forward for the consideration of everyone on the list. I wonder what anyone thinks of rendering 'dukkha' as "trouble". It seems to me that that translation works well both in describing both the sense of suffering, discomfort, and dissatisfaction in "the person" as well as the nature of conditioned dhammas. So, we can unproblematically say such things as "All conditioned dhammas are trouble" (and not be perplexed in including even highly enjoyable dhammas), and also "From craving arises trouble", and "All that I (the Buddha) teach is trouble, its arising, and its cessation", and also "Nibbana is the end of trouble". Any opinions on this, folks? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37175 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Dear Jon, Thank you, this helps me to better understand the worldly conditions Nina. op 01-10-2004 14:56 schreef jonoabb op jonoabb@y...: > Yes, beauty is the result of kamma, but it is not vipaka in the strict sense > of the term. > There are many things about this life that 'come with' the patisandhi citta > but which > do not necessarily involve direct sense-door experiences on our part: is our > life an > easy or a hard one, do we experience generally good health, are people > generally > kind and courteous to us, do we have any physical abnormalities, etc? All > these and > more are determined by past deeds, but are not themselves moments of vipaka. 37176 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 8:18am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner -Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > > Yes, all cittas are real. However, the cuti-citta is different from > every other citta in the current lifetime. In my previous post, I > didn't want to say just how it was different because I would have > had to look up a textbook, and I was too lazy. I still am, sorry, > but I know the cuti-citta takes as its object a moment of kamma that > will dictate the circumstances in which the all cittas of the next > lifetime arise (in heaven, hell, animal world or human world etc.). > >++++++++ Dear Ken, Nice post, just to point out that cuti-citta takes the object from a previous life. It is the same type of citta and object as patisandhi and bhavanga cittas of this life. What conditions next life patisandhi (and bhavanga and cuti) is during the process around the time of cuti-citta. Technical stuff, but helps us to see how automatic and unamenable to self control it is. So cuti-citta is coming - but it is going to no different from the bhavanga we experience every day. robk 37177 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 8:24am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (2)Herman, Dighanka Dear Robert K, Herman, Howard, Nina and all Robert wrote: "Without looking at the pali I assume this must be a misunderstanding by the translator. Whatever the pali word is it can't - at least in this context - mean anything material like air." The Pali term used in the Aggañña Suttam is "antalikkhacaraa". Subcommentary comments on the term in Section 119, Paathikavaggo, iighanikaayo as follows: "antalikkhe aakaase carantiiti antalikkhacaraa". The term "aakaaso" does not mean air, I am afraid. Aakaaso means sky or space. When looking at the itemising of the Ten Kasi.nas in Visuddhimaggo, we find "Vaayo Kasi.na" (the Wind or Air kasi.na) and 'Aakaaso Kasi.na" (the Space Kasi.na) being separately listed. So the Pali term "antalikkhacaraa" is better translated as "moving or going in the sky or space". Those beings are space-goers or space- travellers. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > > Digha Nikaya, Aganna sutta: "Now there comes a time, Vasettha, > when > > after a long period of time this world contracts [and is > eventually > > destroyed]. When the world contracts beings are for the most part > > born in the realm of Radiance There they exist made of mind, > feeding on joy, self-luminous, moving through the air, constantly > beautiful; > > thus they remain for a long, long time. > > [ In this realm there is no mattter they are arupa sattas ] > > Just wondering, the air these beings move through, is it not > material? I can forgive the ancients for not considering air to be > material, but we know otherwise, don't we? > > +++++++ Hi herman, Without looking at the pali I assume this must be a misunderstanding by the translator. Whatever the pali word is it can't - at least in this context - mean anything material like air. robk 37178 From: Ken O Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 9:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] On how to attend to the breath Hi Howard My instincts nudge at me that if I am going to dicuss this with you, it will be the breathing sutta and satipatthana issue all over again, where one side of our people here avocate calming and concentration through breathing while the dinosaurs here will insist that breathing mediation is not for beginners :). A never ending discussion and still everyone stood on their own ground. Nonetheless as I am one of those dinosaurs, I still feel if panna is arise during concentration, the moments are calm, clear with comprehension :) and there is no need to go into breathing meditation to attain. Still I would say (as usual of Ken O characteristics), why waste the present moments. It is a difficult process to see each sense as anatta and seeing them leading to calm and clarity. To me, this is a process always advocate by satipatthana, it meant to be a living practise and not waiting moments to arise in the sitting positon. It is difficult to realise that practise is always in the everyday life be it shopping etc. To me, there is no need to sit and enhance our clarity or clamless because only when present moment arise with panna in our everyday chore, there is salvation and this kind of calmess is unshakeable, this kind of calmness is what I think call equanmity :). Cheers Ken O 37179 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 9:11am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (3)Herman, Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Herman, Joop and all, > Some more on science. > RobertK: But I think we do not need to worry about this, the sasana is in a slow decline, I think it will be gradually diluted and mixed with other ideas (I hope this comment explains why I am not keen on your idea Joop: "I prefer a future-directed one in which new knowledge and old knowledge (=the Tipitaka) are combined"). Joop: I don't understand: if you don't worry because the sasana declines whatever we do, why are you not keen on being future- directed? To ask it in another way: do you think mixing old and new ideas accelerates the decline of sasana or delays this process? I think it delays. >> Joop :"Perhaps you have ever read about the 'Mind and Life' conferences in which the Dailai Lama invites the best natural scientist in the world to discuss with him the relation between science and buddhism."" > RobertK: Yes I have - he meets with a few scientists who have an interest in Buddhism and they discuss consciouness and mind. I think these are great for those scientists but it would be very much a one- way street as I doubt science has much to offer Buddhism with regard to insight into mind. …My favourite quote is the definition of consciousness in the International Dictionary of Psychology: "Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon; it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written about it" (cited in Crick, 1994, vii) Joop: You changed the subject, I didn't know we discussed especially about insight into mind In your first message on this topic (#37164) you only quoted natural scientists. Metta Joop 37180 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (3)Herman, Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > > RobertK: But I think we do not need to worry about this, the sasana > is in a slow decline, I think it will be gradually diluted and mixed > with other ideas (I hope this comment explains why I am not keen on > your idea Joop: "I prefer a future-directed one in which new > knowledge and old knowledge (=the Tipitaka) are combined"). > > Joop: I don't understand: if you don't worry because the sasana > declines whatever we do, why are you not keen on being future- > directed? > To ask it in another way: do you think mixing old and new ideas > accelerates the decline of sasana or delays this process? I think it > delays. ========= Dear Joop, It declines whatever we do - but the decline speeds up if wrongviews become strong. I believe the Theravada have well preserved the Dhamma and hence any mixing, with science or whatever, is likely to weaken that rare nectar. ------------- > > >> Joop :"Perhaps you have ever read about the 'Mind and Life' > conferences in which the Dailai Lama > invites the best natural scientist in the world to discuss with him > the relation between science and buddhism."" > > > RobertK: Yes I have - he meets with a few scientists who have an > interest in Buddhism and they discuss consciouness and mind. I think > these are great for those scientists but it would be very much a one- > way street as I doubt science has much to offer Buddhism with regard > to insight into mind. …> Joop: You changed the subject, I didn't know we discussed especially > about insight into mind > +++++++++++++ I looked at two books based on those conferences ( a few years back ) and it seemed to me they focused on mind science. But anyway I wanted this series of posts to address science and Buddhism in general. RobertK 37181 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 9:43am Subject: Re: Science/Truth (2)Herman, Dighanka Thanks Suan, that's great! robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Robert K, Herman, Howard, Nina and all > > Robert wrote: > > "Without looking at the pali I assume this must be a misunderstanding > by the translator. Whatever the pali word is it can't - at least in > this context - mean anything material like air." > > The Pali term used in the Aggañña Suttam is "antalikkhacaraa". > Subcommentary comments on the term in Section 119, Paathikavaggo, > iighanikaayo as follows: > > "antalikkhe aakaase carantiiti antalikkhacaraa". > > The term "aakaaso" does not mean air, I am afraid. Aakaaso means sky > or space. > 37182 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 9:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Science/Truth (3)Herman, Joop ---Dear Howard, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Very well said, Robert. I consider this point to be so important - the > intimate connection between anatta and conditionality - that I snipped the > foregoing out of the context of your post as a whole for purposes of emphasis. > Dependent origination, both in its specific 12-link scheme of dependent > origination of dukkha and in its general form of conditionality lies at the core of > the Buddha's teaching, both within the Theravada and Mahayana traditions as > does anattata/su~n~nata (shunyata) - its other face. ------------------- Yes, Exactly so! ------------------------------ > While writing, I think I'll take this opportunity to mention a thought > that has occurred to me. I put this forward for the consideration of everyone > on the list. I wonder what anyone thinks of rendering 'dukkha' as "trouble". > _________ I really prefer to leave Dukkha untranslated. \ Robertk 37183 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections - "no need to think I have to develop determination" Hello Phil, There is no need to think now I shall develop this or that perfection. A. Sujin stressed this many times. It is not a matter of thinking, then there is an idea of self again who shall try to do this or that in order to reach the goal. Nina. op 02-10-2004 01:13 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Reading this makes me wonder what the difference is between the perfection > of determination, and that of energy, because the description o the > perfection off energy that follows later in the book is almost identical to > the above sentence, if I recall correctly. 37184 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 2:09pm Subject: Rupa Hi All, The part of my "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile" that I was least satisfied with was the section on rupas. I stuck it at the beginning of "What Happens When We Die" and I did not really do justice to the topic. Since I am now covering this material in my weekly class, I used this opportunity to create a separate section on this subject. I have uploaded this new section (only 6 pages) to the files section (there are a number of diagrams). I will leave it there for a couple of weeks. Feedback and comments welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) 37185 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 2:34pm Subject: Re: object of jhana/ Htoo Hi Htoo, You may find this of interest. Perhaps Nina or Suan could give Pali references since you probably don't have this translation. Visuddhimagga III, 117 'As to object': of these forty meditation subjects, ...snip.. This is 'as to object'. ----------------------- Note 32. Na-vattaba-- 'not so classifiable' is an Abhidhamma shorthand term for something that, ...snip...of the three, or two, headings. Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Thank you very much for your kindness. I really appreciate your kind message. I am looking forward to hearing from Suan, actually. 22 of 40 kammatthanas develop patibhaga nimitta as thier object because patibhaga nimitta can serve as the object of appana jhana. Others do not develop patibhaga nimitta. With many thanks, Htoo Naing 37186 From: nori Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On how to attend to the breath Hi Ken O & Upasaka, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Nori > > why observe the breath only. This is not what I say. > Do you mean the other six senses are > not working while you are awake. :) Also, not what I say. My post 'On how to attend to the breath', was simply a post on the ancient commentary of the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, and various opinions people have stated on how it should be interpreted; I was just relaying information. However I have stated in the past that I believe periods of focused, unbroken awareness onto breath, as well as other objects, is good exercise for the mind, awareness, and discernment. ----- Upasaka, I like your post. U: "One way in which breath is special is the following: When attending to breath, as calm increases the breath becomes more subtle and fine. That increased subtlety calls for greater attention in order to maintain clarity, which then leads to still greater calm and concentration. Continuing in this fashion makes the mind quite powerful and a fit instrument." An unskillful disposition can also lead to frustration when trying to discern that subtlety as happens to me many times. This is all part of the exercise and there is much to be learned from it. with metta, nori 37187 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: Rupa Hi All, The part of my "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile" that I was least satisfied with was the section on rupas. ..snip.. I have uploaded this new section (only 6 pages) to the files section (there are a number of diagrams). I will leave it there for a couple of weeks. Feedback and comments welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Rupa section of 'The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile' is also good. Only few comments. Page 63 ( page 2 of page 6 ) 1. 'When perceive through the body-door, it is a combination of hardness, temperature and pressure. Understandable. But I would not assume as 'combination'. These three have separate characters. They are 1.pathavi-photthabba or sense of hardness degree, 2. tejo-photthabba or sense of heat degree or temperature, and 3. vayo-photthabba or sense of degree of pressure. When these three are combined or are thought in combination, this already leads to panatta or idea as in case of ' aglass of water'. There is 'no glass' and 'no water' at all. But there are rupas and namas. But we are talking basing on pannatti or idea when talking on 'a glass of water'. When we touch it, kayavinnana citta arises and other cittas follow. That arisen kayavinnana citta or body-consciousness is one of three. In the next vithi vara, the object or touch object may be the same or may be one of the other 2. Combination shows we have been in pannatti or idea domain when we think in combination. An example is 'a cold flowing water'. 2. Good point of foot note. A glass of water is silent, so it is not perceived through the ear door. 3. 'Rupa interacts with other rupa..mind interacts with rupa..' The first is domain of science, yes, I agree. But the latter 'mind interacts with rupa' is what we should learn and this will help us understand nama and rupa and this leads to holy life and leads to nibbana. Page 68 ( page 6 of page 6 ) 4. life-faculty Footnote explains it. But in my text, it is said as 'jivita rupa'. For nama dhamma 'life-faculty' it is said as 'jivitindriya'. Overall, I think rupa chaperter is clear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37188 From: plnao Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:35pm Subject: dukkha as "trouble" (was Re Science/Truth 3) Hi Howard, and all >>> I wonder what anyone thinks of rendering 'dukkha' as "trouble". It seems to me that that translation works well both in describing both the sense of suffering, discomfort, and dissatisfaction in "the person" as well as the nature of conditioned dhammas. So, we can unproblematically say such things as "All conditioned dhammas are trouble" H: I agree with Rob K that it would be best to leave dukkha untranslated and hope that the term becomes as familiar as kamma, but with the prevalent intolerance towards Pali terms, even on this list, there is no hope of that happening, so it's worthwhile to consider the inevitable translations. I think "trouble" doesn't work. I can't imagine trouble unless it's in the context of self having trouble with something, or someone. There is always a feeling of subject and object. Trouble with in-laws. Trouble tying my shoes. Trouble sleeping. Always subject and an object or activity. But for me dukkha is captured in that gap between what one ideally wants, and what is the reality of things. Yesterday I got angry at someone and scolded him. There is a gap between my ideal self and the reality that anger is anatta and that it comes beyond my control. I suppose I could say "trouble being peaceful", but that wouldn't be dukkha, that would be wrong view of the way things are. Dukkha (or dissatisfaction, or stress, or suffering) captures the essence of that gap. The gap between wanting to be healthy, and the reality of getting old and dying. The gap between wanting to hold on to a wholesome citta, and the reality that a wholesome citta is momentary and rises and falls away beyond our control. Dukkha is that gap. If you said "getting old and dying is trouble" it would be wrong, I think, because it would be more suitable to describe the wrong view of self trying to change that situation. Dukkha isn't about trying to change the situation. It is the situation. There is a Japanese word "kuyashii" that feels like dukkha to me. It's usually translated as vexing, but that doesn't quite do it. Metta, Phil 37189 From: Egbert Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:38pm Subject: Re: Science/Truth (3)Herman, Joop Hi Rob, Joop, Howard, Suan and all, A very useful thread for me. Thank you all. > > However, anatta in Dhamma is tied in with conditionality, absolutely and intimately. Because of conditions such as kamma there must be results and then other conditions coming together to assist the kamma to give results. So , in a continuous stream there is the > round of vipaka, kamma and kilesa - all showing anatta and > conditionality. Thus anatta is not merely a simple negation of self - it is deep and reveals the very workings of what life is. It > shatters illusion but it doesn't in any way lead to ethical nihilism because while there are still conditions there must be rebirth and the fruition of results.I would say kamma and rebirth are unavoidable aspects of anatta. > And the incredible thing is someone (the Buddha) could comprehand > the various conditioned and conditioning factors with detail and > precision. Far, far above any ideas Hume ever had. I have no problems with any of the foregoing, except for if there was a suggestion in it that there is an absolutele and immediate causal nexus between the physical death of one being and the coming to be of another. If there is no such nexus proposed, then all the metaphysical and untestable mechanisms which have been put forward by various traditions as to what is passed on and how need not be examined. The kamma-death-rebirth link is very much like the Lamarckian theory of evolution, which has been well and truly debunked. Lamarck put forward that characteristics acquired in a lifetime are passed on to future generations. So if I studied hard my kids would be good students, and if I was a bodybuilder, my offspring would have strong physiques. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. It just doesn't happen this way!!!! The traits that are passed on from generation to generation are transmitted during fertilisation resulting from sexual intercourse, which happens when the donors are very much alive. The heritable traits are molecular in nature, and determine the production of particualr kinds of proteins in the new organism. The minutest differences at this basic level make for enormous variations between organisms. The human organism, through its molecular composition, is capable of learning, which is the other mechanism of heredity. Learning is a social/cultural process, and what is learnt depends entirely on what is taught. It is the domain of science to enumerate and explain what is real in the material world. It has been doing this very well ever since having stumbled on the finding that repeatable results follow from first putting forward ideas in such a way that they are testable. Scientific knowledge is based on a pyramid of ideas, each one of which is falsifiable. Science explains the mechanisms of life in a testable, verifiable way, while Buddhism doesn't. Being alive, how then to live? Ethics is not the domain of science, because ethics is goal oriented. Deciding how to achieve a goal is future-oriented activity. What is the goal of one's activity? What is the goal of life? What is the goal of death? Ethical nihilism does not proceed from science. How a being lives their life demonstrates merely what they believe. And as long as they believe they are an independent I, a moral agent that is personally responsible for their own life and death, and everything in between, they will have much trouble :-) Kind Regards Herman 37190 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence: To Htoo, Nina, Rob K Dear Htoo, Nina, Robert K, Larry and all Htoo asked: "May I ask you a question? What is the object of the 4th jhana? Is it a paramattha dhamma or panatti dhamma?"..snip..snip..It is purely a memory-made mere appearance to the attainer of Jhaana concentration." The above Pali passage also carries an unintendended warning to those Sanskritists who want to translate the term "nimittam" as "perceptual image" indiscriminately. Jhaana nimitta has neither color nor shape or look. With regards, Suan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Suan, Thank you very much for your clear answer. I think it should come first before any explanation. That is 'the object of 4th rupa jhana' is panatti. You are right. Panatti does not arise, does not fall away and when it is the object, there is no way to see anicca, dukkha, and anatta. So the 4th jhana itself is just a lokiya samma-samadhi. It is not one of the Noble Eightfold Path. The reason that I raise the question is to highlight that loki jhanas are not samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path. And the other reason is that to help people judge on the statement that 'jhanas are necessary for development of vipassana panna and attainment of arahatta magga nana.' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37191 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Re: Kamma, Htoo. Dear Sarah and Htoo, I understood that dosa-muulacittas cannot arise in the fine material planes.Correct? Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, It is correct. Only 10 of 12 akusala cittas may arise in fine material planes. Dosa-muulacittas cannot arise there. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37192 From: Egbert Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence: To Htoo, Nina, Rob K Hi Htoo, Can I ask you to explain something? > > Panatti does not arise, does not fall away For what reason do you say this? Can you give examples of what you mean? Kind Regards Herman 37193 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause of impermanence: To Htoo, Nina, Rob K Hi Htoo, Can I ask you to explain something? Panatti does not arise, does not fall away For what reason do you say this? Can you give examples of what you mean? Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, I explained the reason that I raised the question to Suan. But your question now is a bit different. May I confirm first 'Are you asking why I said ''Panatti does not arise, does not fall away''? With Metta, Htoo Naing 37194 From: plnao Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 3:59pm Subject: The world beyond? Hello all The more I read in the Suttanta, the more I am realize how many potentially misleading suttas there are (and/or misleading translations at access to insight) and the more grateful I am for having coming across abhidhamma so that I can appreciate the suttas without taking them the wrong way. An example, AN III.52, Dvejana Sutta: "This world is on fire with aging, illness and death. With the world thus on fire with aging, illness and death, any restrain of body, speech and intellect practiced here will be one's shelter, cave, island and refuge after death in the world beyond." Later we read, "Whoever here is restrained in body speech and awareness, who makes merit while he's alive: that will be for his bliss after death." It is hard not to read eternalism into that, and I'm sure newcomers to Buddhism would read a heavenly reward into this. And this wrong view has become the norm in Japan, where Japanese Buddhists talk of "that world", a kind of Buddhist heaven beyond a river, and believe that ancestors spirits return to earth from "that world" every summer during the Obon holidays. It's a harmless belief, and comforting, but it is not right view, and I'm sure misinterpretations of the Suttanta contributed to it. With my beginner's knowledge of abhidhamma, I know that wholesome cittas that fall away in a kind of momentary death condition the arising - birth, if you will- of more wholesome cittas. That is the reward of restraint of body, speech and intellect. Yes, there is rebirth, but that is not in a "world beyond"in my opinion. Yes, there is "bliss" if one is born in the deva realms. Perhaps this sutta is referring to the deva realms. But without knowing that, one would misunderstand. Also doesn't "any restraint...will be one's shelter.." seem misleading. If I recall correctly, the object of the rebirth citta can come from any one kamma in this life or a past life, but not in a cumulative way, like this suggests. We can have a life full of wholesome kamma, but a single unwholesome kamma from a previous lifetime could be the object of the rebirth citta, technically speaking. Is that right? That having been said, I appreciate the idea of not adding to the fire raging in the world. "When panna sees the benefits of akusala and the disadvantages of akusala, it conditions the arising of kusala cittas." That sentence resounds again and again in daily life for me these days. Metta, Phil 37195 From: plnao Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections - "no need to think I have to developdetermination" Hi Nina Yes, no need to think I shall develop this or that perfection. But I think there is value in recognizing them when they arise in daily life. Not in a controlling way, but just in a momentary appreciation of them that might condition their further development. And to do that, I think we need to understand them in terms of how they are similar and different from each other, and how they support each other. Another example of intellectual understanding conditioning a deeper kind of understanding. Metta, Phil p.s I imagine you're getting ready for your departure to India. I wonder what state of mind prevails at such times. I would be in a frenzy caused by all the things that need to be done combined with anticipation of a great Dhamma talk-fest. Even now I sometimes fantasize that I won the lottery so I could quit my job and hang out in India with you all! > > Hello Phil, > There is no need to think now I shall develop this or that perfection. A. > Sujin stressed this many times. It is not a matter of thinking, then there > is an idea of self again who shall try to do this or that in order to reach > the goal. > Nina. > op 02-10-2004 01:13 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > Reading this makes me wonder what the difference is between the perfection > > of determination, and that of energy, because the description o the > > perfection off energy that follows later in the book is almost identical to > > the above sentence, if I recall correctly. > 37196 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 078 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Manasikara is also one of the 7 universal cetasikas that always arises with each and every citta that arises at each moment. Citta and manasikara cannot be separated. Manasikara is not citta. Citta is to be aware of object. Manasikara or attention is a mental factor that arises along with citta. Its job is not to be aware of the object. Manasikara or attention acts as a steerer. Manasikara cetasika or attention helps the king citta to go to the right direction. Manasikara cetasika also helps other co-existing cetasikas to go to the same direction as he goes. Manasikara is not contact. It is not feeling. It is not volition. It is not perception. It is not fixing at any point and it is not a concentration. It does not support as jivitinriya does. Manasikara cetasika directs the citta to the object. It points to the object. It helps to go in a specific direction. It leads to the object. This should not be confused with vitakka cetasika, which will be explained soon. When it is said that it leads to the object, it means that citta goes to the object in a specific direction as dictated by manasikara cetasika. While citta is going to that direction all accompanying cetasikas have to follow the king citta. So manasikara is like a steerer. There is a word that reveals the usefulness of manasikara. It is 'yoniso manasikara' or 'wise attention'. This means 'proper attention'. Citta always attends an object. This time, it may attend this object and at another time, it may attend another object. When the attention is in proper direction, all mental phenomena that arise due to this wise attention will be fruitful. It is improper attention that leads to unwholesome cittas to arise. Manasikara itself is sincere and honest. It arises and falls away. It is not a kusala or akusala dhamma. But when inappropriate attention is made, akusala cittas arise and manasikaras in these akusala cittas will be akusala cetasikas. We cannot control manasikara cetasika. We also cannot control citta. But when there are conditions they have to arise on their own accord. Even though we cannot control manasikara, we can be aware of manasikara that has arisen. When we stay in wise attention that is when we are conscious to our mind, we will notice that mind sometimes goes to the object of attraction of sensuous pleasure. This is usual for most people. But if well learned and well trained, as soon as mind takes that direction to sensuous object, this should be withdrawn. And then mind should be redirected to another object that may bring up wholesome fruit. When objects are wisely attended, unwholesome mental states will not arise and instead there will arise wholesome mental state. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37197 From: Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 0:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dukkha as "trouble" (was Re Science/Truth 3) Hi, Phil - You make good points in the following. The word 'trouble' doesn't work consistently. No single English word does, or so it seems. One reason why I like 'trouble' is that it can serve both as noun and as adjective, which is something it shares with 'dukkha'. But, I agree that if one becomes familiar with all the various senses and nuances of 'dukkha' by seeing it used in a variety of contexts, then perhaps Robert and you are correct that it is best to just stick with that word. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/2/04 6:38:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, and all > > >>>I wonder what anyone thinks of rendering 'dukkha' as "trouble". > It seems to me that that translation works well both in describing both the > sense of suffering, discomfort, and dissatisfaction in "the person" as well > as > the nature of conditioned dhammas. So, we can unproblematically say such > things > as "All conditioned dhammas are trouble" > > H: I agree with Rob K that it would be best to leave dukkha untranslated > and hope that the term > becomes as familiar as kamma, but with the prevalent intolerance towards > Pali terms, even on this > list, there is no hope of that happening, so it's worthwhile to consider the > inevitable translations. > > > I think "trouble" doesn't work. I can't imagine trouble unless it's in the > context of self having trouble > with something, or someone. There is always a feeling of subject and object. > Trouble with in-laws. Trouble > tying my shoes. Trouble sleeping. Always subject and an object or activity. > But for me dukkha is captured in > that gap between what one ideally wants, and what is the reality of things. > > Yesterday I got angry at someone and scolded him. There is a gap between my > ideal self and the reality that > anger is anatta and that it comes beyond my control. I suppose I could say > "trouble being peaceful", but that > wouldn't be dukkha, that would be wrong view of the way things are. Dukkha > (or dissatisfaction, or stress, or > suffering) captures the essence of that gap. The gap between wanting to be > healthy, and the reality of getting old > and dying. The gap between wanting to hold on to a wholesome citta, and the > reality that a wholesome citta > is momentary and rises and falls away beyond our control. Dukkha is that > gap. If you said "getting old and dying is trouble" it > would be wrong, I think, because it would be more suitable to describe the > wrong view of self trying to change that situation. Dukkha isn't about > trying to change the situation. It is the situation. > > There is a Japanese word "kuyashii" that feels like dukkha to me. It's > usually translated as vexing, but that doesn't quite > do it. > > Metta, > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37198 From: Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 0:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dukkha as "trouble" (was Re Science/Truth 3) Hi Howard I think 'trouble' for Dukkha works pretty well. I like the root word 'afflict' as in either 'afflicting' or 'affliction.' I think both terms have the potential flexibility to cover the breadth of Dukkha. TG 37199 From: Egbert Date: Sat Oct 2, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Re: cause of impermanence: To Htoo, Nina, Rob K Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Can I ask you to explain something? > > Panatti does not arise, does not fall away > > For what reason do you say this? Can you give examples of what you > mean? > > Kind Regards > > Herman > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Herman, > > I explained the reason that I raised the question to Suan. But your > question now is a bit different. > > May I confirm first 'Are you asking why I said ''Panatti does not > arise, does not fall away''? ======= I am not asking for your personal reasons why you are making that statement here and now, I am asking you why you believe this is true. Hope that is clearer Kind Regards Herman > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing