38400 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:52pm Subject: Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile Hi All, I finally finished the "almost final" draft and posted it in the Files section. I am now working on the index and I hope to send it for printing in a week or so. I would appreciate any last-minute comments. Metta, Rob M :-) 38401 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] Hi Dan k: I am wondering which sammadithi are you talking about, supramundane and mundane. > The idea that sammaditthi is developed only after the development > of a "conceptual right view" seems to lead to a stultifying > intellectualism that, in practice, lends itself to development of > ditthi rather than detachment and ends up obscuring the path rather > than bringing it into view. > The notion that intellectual understanding is a necessary precursor > to direct understanding is very popular in dsg, but it is, I > believe, not supported by the tipitaka. k: whether an intellectual understanding is necessary as a percusor to direct understanding is in the sutta, sometimes as investigation, listening, reflection, comtemplation etc. As I said, there must be right application of thought to right view, in order for panna to further develop or accumulates. k: If we are talking about mundane sammaditthi, as I said earlier to you it must first in the paramatha dhamma even before we know it as an experience to us. Ken O > > > > Dan: Sammaditthi is right viewing of reality, not correct > opinion. > > > > Sukin: But we haven't determined yet, if sammaditthi can also > view > > concepts rightly. ;-) > > Of course sammaditthi can also view concepts rightly, viz. as > distinct from reality. > > > Metta, > > Dan 38402 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is desire Rob: "An object enters the mental stream through a sense door. We are not yet Anagamis, so there is a clinging to the object (we have not yet given up sensuous clinging). We cling to the object because we have perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) and perceive (see MN1) the object as beautiful. Craving is the name of the accumulation which conditions the arising of clinging (clinging is a lobha-mula citta). This is followed by a stage of conceiving (again, see MN1) at which point perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa) could lead to perversion of view (ditthi-vipallasa) causing aversion (could also lead to more clinging conditioned by craving). Perversion of view means that we attribute characteristics to the object that are not truly there and our accumulations (craving or "disgust") lead to lobha-mula or dosa-mula cittas through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). Note: Craving is the name of the accumulation which gives rise to lobha (clinging), but I don't know the proper term for the name of the accumulation which gives arise to dosa; for this reason, I put "disgust" in quotation marks. Larry, does this help or confuse further?" Hi Rob, Sorry, I don't see the relevance to what I was talking about. Also, lobha is craving and upadana is clinging. However, maybe you can help me out on another question. Is it feasible that body tension is consciousness produced rupa? Is there some kind of rule on what kind of consciousnesses can produce specific rupas? You are probably experiencing some body tension right now that is not related to posture; is there a way to see directly what is producing that? Larry 38403 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > So when you are talking about the need to get out of jhana and begin the > practice of vipassana as you said. It just doesn't need to happen, when > one is practicing the sutta instructions. If you could take the time (if > you have the Majjhima Nikaya) and read sutta # 111 "One By One as They > Occurred" and see that Venerable Sariputta experienced many different > things while he was in each of the jhanas, like each of the 5 aggregates, > it may begin to change your mind about the jhana practice. > ============ Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sariputta attained arahatship while he was fanning the Buddha and listening to the Buddha give a Dhamma talk to another monk. He was rapidly entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels while listening to the Buddha. This is because he was sariputta and his parami meant this was possible. Today is not the time where beings can equal this. >. I know the strong feeling about the > need to separate the jhana practice and vipassana, I was taught that for > 20 years. But when the suttas are looked at we can see that this is not > necessarily the case. ========= I saw where you said you trained with Mahasi sayadaw (or in his temple?) and that you were very successful. But are you saying this training wasn't right - looking back now? with respect RobertK 38404 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "An object enters the mental stream through a sense door. We are > not yet Anagamis, so there is a clinging to the object (we have not yet > given up sensuous clinging). We cling to the object because we have > perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) and perceive (see MN1) the > object as beautiful. Craving is the name of the accumulation which > conditions the arising of clinging (clinging is a lobha-mula citta). > This is followed by a stage of conceiving (again, see MN1) at which > point perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa) could lead to perversion > of view (ditthi-vipallasa) causing aversion (could also lead to more > clinging conditioned by craving). Perversion of view means that we > attribute characteristics to the object that are not truly there and our > accumulations (craving or "disgust") lead to lobha-mula or dosa- mula > cittas through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). > Note: Craving is the name of the accumulation which gives rise to > lobha (clinging), but I don't know the proper term for the name of the > accumulation which gives arise to dosa; for this reason, I put "disgust" > in quotation marks. > Larry, does this help or confuse further?" > > Hi Rob, > > Sorry, I don't see the relevance to what I was talking about. Also, > lobha is craving and upadana is clinging. ===== Craving is tanha (tanha is not a cetasika, it is an accumulation). ===== > However, maybe you can help > me out on another question. Is it feasible that body tension is > consciousness produced rupa? ===== Bodily intimation is citta-produced rupa. In fact, it is only citta which produces bodily intimation (not kamma, nutrition or temperature). Bodily intimation is communication via the body. If I point my finger at something, this in bodily intimation. However, indigestion or a headache is not bodily intimation as it is not intended to communicate. This type of rupa is caused by temperature. ===== > Is there some kind of rule on what kind of > consciousnesses can produce specific rupas? ===== I have a chart (not with me now, I will summarize and send it later today) which shows which cittas can produce rupa. ===== > You are probably > experiencing some body tension right now that is not related to posture; > is there a way to see directly what is producing that? ===== I don't need Abhidhamma to tell me that it is now lunch time and even though my stomach is communicating with me, this is not bodily intimation arising from citta :-) Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Sorry for misunderstanding your earlier question... I will read it again. 38405 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/17/04 9:29:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala > where there is none > is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > loving-kindness. It > seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. ========================= I don't think you should be so sure about this. Consider, if you would, the following, particularly [iii]: ---------------------------------- > "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent > for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not > yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities > that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." > >> -- SN XLV.8 > ----------------------------------------- But most relevant to the matter of the "evil thoughts" that have been besetting you are [i] and [ii]. With regard to these thoughts and even desires for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you would do well to consider the following: 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. 3) Also, by being mindful of thoughts and guarding the mind door, as you (admirably) have been doing, you can avoid concocting further and embellishing such thoughts, and, by seeing them clearly and quickly dropping them as one would quickly drop poisonous snakes, you will see them leave as soon as they come. And by the process of repeatedly seeing and letting go, the mind will become habituated to such relinquishment, and soon these thoughts, as if they were sentient entities, will "realize" that they are unwanted guests, and they will show up less and less often at your mental doorstep. One more thing, Phil: The thoughts are just thoughts, the emotions are just emotions. They are not "you", and no self-condemnation is justified. You should commend yourself for distinguishing good from bad and for wanting to choose the good. Have metta for yourself first, Phil. Feel kindness and friendship for yourself, and never the opposite. This will make all the rest easier. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38406 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/17/04 11:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Craving is tanha (tanha is not a cetasika, it is an accumulation). ======================= Whatever craving is, it is an experiential reality, is it not? Does it not fall within the sankharakkhanda? It is neither rupa, nor citta, nor nibbana, and if, as you say, it is also not cetasika, what in the world is it then? But actually, isn't tanha a mode of lobha, which indeed is a cetasika? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38407 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:48pm Subject: Re: what is desire Hi Larry, Let me try again :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > I am currently understanding that "lobha" encompasses both "like" > and "want". Is this correct? ===== I would group "like" with "clinging" (i.e. lobha cetasika) and "want" with "craving" (i.e. an accumulation). ===== > These are such different phenomena that > it makes sense to me that "like" is usually accompanied by pleasant > feeling and "want" is usually accompanied by neutral feeling. ===== When there is "like" associated with sensous objects (you like to see things), it is often associated with neutral feeling. When there is "like" associated with concepts (you like having a cookie), it is often associated with pleasant feeling. An unpleasant mental state such as dissatisfaction with the current situation can be a condition for the accumulation of "want" to arise. ===== > So, > when there is desire (want) it is accompanied by neutral feeling but > desire usually desires what we like, and like is accompanied by > pleasant feeling. ===== Accumulations such as desire / craving / want are not associated with feelings; only mental states have associated feeling. ===== > If I taste a cookie neutral feeling arises with the > taste but for whatever reason I may like this taste. ===== As a non-Anagami, there will be attachment to sense-stimulation during the sense-door process (though the tasting-consciousness citta is accompanied by neutral feeling, the subsequent javana cittas will be lobha-mula, likely accompanied by neutral mental feeling). Later, there will be a separate set of mind-door processes that recognize the sweetness. There may even be another set of mind- door processes that name the sweetness (umm... chocolate chip). The recognizing of the sweetness can be a condition for accumulations to kick in and start further mental proliferation which is the "I like this taste!" The naming of the sweetness can be a condition for accumulations to kick in and start even more mental proliferation which is "I like chocolate chips!". ===== > This liking is > accompanied by pleasant feeling and we say "It tastes good; I want > more." But the taste itself does not actually taste good; it tastes > sweet and this taste is accompanied by neutral feeling. What I want > is the pleasant feeling of like. ===== I think it is more complicated that the way you are presenting it. According to Ledi Sayadaw, the recognition of the sweetness can involve hundreds of thousands of mind-door process. ===== > > Sometimes desire is accompanied by unpleasant feeling bodily > sensation. Perhaps one way to make sense out of this is that this > bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. If it holds true > that this kind of rupa is produced by a root consciousness with a > corresponding feeling then dislike (dosa) produces a rupa experienced > as unpleasant bodily sensation, "like" produces a rupa experienced as > pleasant feeling bodily sensation, "want" produces a rupa experienced > as neutral feeling bodily sensation, and bewilderment (moha) also > produces a rupa experienced as neutral feeling bodily sensation. So > when desire is accompanied by unpleasant bodily sensation this must > be produced by dislike. I would say the dislike most likely has "not > possessing" or "not sensing what one wants or likes" as object but > there could also be dislike of "want" in a general sense. ===== As mentioned previously, citta-produced bodily intimation is to communicate information to others - it does not create the pleasant bodily feeling or unpleasant bodily feeling that are detected through the body-sense door. ===== > > This seems to suggest that bodily unpleasant tension is usually > produced by dislike or hatred (dosa). Dosa tends to be self > reinforcing because dislike dislikes the unpleasant feeling of > dislike. And furthermore the experience of desire _itself_ is > actually rather subtle. What do you think? ===== Larry, did I manage to come closer to your questions this time? Metta, Rob M :-) PS: All this talk of food is making me hungry. All I have is salad, no chocolate chip cookies :-( 38408 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:55pm Subject: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi Phil, To reinforce what Howard is saying, "You cannot control the mind... but you can train it." (just like a puppy) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Phil - > > In a message dated 11/17/04 9:29:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > plnao@j... writes: > > > Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala > > where there is none > > is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > > loving-kindness. It > > seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. > ========================= > I don't think you should be so sure about this. Consider, if you > would, the following, particularly [iii]: > ---------------------------------- > > > "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk > > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent > > for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not > > yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > > qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates > > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > > qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, > > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, > > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities > > that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." > > >> -- SN XLV.8 > > > ----------------------------------------- > But most relevant to the matter of the "evil thoughts" that have been > besetting you are [i] and [ii]. With regard to these thoughts and even desires > for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you would > do well to consider the following: > 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. > 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, > their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. > 3) Also, by being mindful of thoughts and guarding the mind door, as > you (admirably) have been doing, you can avoid concocting further and > embellishing such thoughts, and, by seeing them clearly and quickly dropping them as > one would quickly drop poisonous snakes, you will see them leave as soon as they > come. And by the process of repeatedly seeing and letting go, the mind will > become habituated to such relinquishment, and soon these thoughts, as if they > were sentient entities, will "realize" that they are unwanted guests, and they > will show up less and less often at your mental doorstep. > One more thing, Phil: The thoughts are just thoughts, the emotions are > just emotions. They are not "you", and no self-condemnation is justified. You > should commend yourself for distinguishing good from bad and for wanting to > choose the good. Have metta for yourself first, Phil. Feel kindness and > friendship for yourself, and never the opposite. This will make all the rest easier. > > With metta, > Howard > 38409 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Howard, Perhaps I am getting too technical. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 11/17/04 11:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Craving is tanha (tanha is not a cetasika, it is an accumulation). > ======================= > Whatever craving is, it is an experiential reality, is it not? Does it > not fall within the sankharakkhanda? It is neither rupa, nor citta, nor > nibbana, and if, as you say, it is also not cetasika, what in the world is it then? > > But actually, isn't tanha a mode of lobha, which indeed is a cetasika? > When we analyze Paticcasamuppada from an Abhidhamma perspective (defining each of the 12 causes / effects as ultimate entities where possible, and defining the nature of the conditioning relationships between the causes / effects using the 24 conditions), tanha becomes a concept describing an accumulation to support the arising of the specific lobha-mula cittas which are clinging. Specifically: - tanha is craving for visible data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible- data and dhamma-data (it is a tendency, an accumulation, a habit) - upadana is sense-door clinging, false view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (i.e. lobha & ditthi) - Tanha conditions upadana through the following conditions: a. Root b. Co-nascence c. Mutuality d. Support e. Natural Decisive Support f. Association g. Presence h. Non-disappearance Later today, I will forward a reference from the Visuddhimagga on this. Metta, Rob M :-) 38410 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Dear Lee, I have never thought about it much, I think it is beyond my scope. It is not helpful for my daily life. Who can discern javanacitta 1,2,3,etc? They go too quickly. Perhaps there is more in other commentaries, but again, I do not think it fruitful for me to go into it too much. I found something in the Tiika of Visuddhimagga, XIX, 14, in footnote 2. The seventh impulsion ...has acquired the service of repetition by the previous impulsions, gives result in the next life... Then there are other opinions, see also Visuddhimagga IV, 75, 77, footnotes 20, 21. It seems not so much repetition which is decisive, but the position as being the last impulsion. But again, all this is not relevant to me, and beyond my scope. Nina. op 17-11-2004 06:55 schreef Dhammaasoka op dasoka@n...: > As I know that, in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Bikkhu > Bodhi, chapter V, pg205 follows the Ven. Narada's statement but I > don't have the English version copy,. > > By the way, is there any other reference source that mention about the > strongness of the javana? 38411 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,114 Dear Htoo, Today I come to the dreams! It will be in Vis. 114 and in an extra answer to Larry. First about bhavanga. Nina. op 17-11-2004 12:45 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams >> is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. > 478). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Larry, > > Is it right to say that dreams are seen only by functional > consciousness? Could you please write down the vithi vara of a dream? 38412 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 11/17/04 11:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Craving is tanha (tanha is not a cetasika, it is an accumulation). > ======================= > > ================= Howard: But actually, isn't tanha a mode of lobha, which indeed is a cetasika? =========== Thank you Howard, Yes tanha is one of the names for lobha cetasika. Other names are abhijja and raga (and there are many more). Robertk 38413 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Rob, I'm pretty sure there are many different kinds of consciousness produced rupa, not just the two intimations. However, apparently there isn't a lot written about this so maybe there is no textual answer to my question. This all started by thinking about what Bhante Vimalaramsi said about desire arising with body tension, usually unpleasant feeling. How to explain this? My idea was that the feeling of the consciousness produced rupa sensation would correspond to the feeling of the consciousness that produced it. I'm not 100% sure if this is valid. If it is true then we can figure out what kind of consciousness produces certain consciousness produced rupas. I do agree though that 'like' can arise with neutral feeling. But 'like' is usually weaker than 'want' so I wouldn't class either as clinging (upadana). Where did you get all these ideas about tanha being an accumulation? What do you mean by 'accumulation'? Larry 38414 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:55pm Subject: Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dear Phil, Do you want to be the one who can control thoughts? Then there are many religions and philosphies and psycholgies that will show you how. Or do you want to see that there is no one anywhere doing anything ever? Is there anything other than the khandhas arising when you are watching TV. No one puts it clearer than the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" . Instead of been by akusala why not understand it as it is. If you read the suttas without understanding the conventional language they are termed in you will go wrong. There is TRUE right effort at a moment of understanding the dhamma that is arising now. You talk about having evil thoughts about 9/11 and trying to stop them. But if you know that sound is sound and thinking is thinking it all becomes merely objects for insight. And learning to see this you will have no doubt at all that there are no beings anywhere, there are just conditions, mere dukkha, arising and ceasing. I asked one of the group?@who are translating Buddhism in Daily life in Japan how they felt towards a guy last year who killed 6 or 7 primary school students. One who has really caught onto what Dhamma is said she felt neutral.?@I said I would love to meet him because I think he would appreciate Dhamma now (since been executed). So hearing about Osama or Bush is like a small test to show us whether we have a little understanding or none at all. Why do we always want to complicate the Dhamma. I guess being aware of the present moment is just something that doesn't seem feasible or something..? Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello all > > I am ringing the bell, if you will, to tell you my dhamma friends about > something > difficult I have been going through. It will be one of those confession-like > threads, > so please bear with me. > > I've been reflecting on "evil thoughts" (as well as having them a lot) > recently. I have made reference to it before, but I am prone to have > far too much interest in the war in Iraq, and because of my aversion for > Bush I have found myself rooting for the insurgents, and have taken > pleasure in the rising American casualties. I tell you this so you know that > when I title a thread "Evil thoughts" I am not talking about wanting to > eat ice cream! People, I have *evil thoughts*! And not just on occasion. > 38415 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is desire Rob: "When we analyze Paticcasamuppada from an Abhidhamma perspective (defining each of the 12 causes / effects as ultimate entities where possible, and defining the nature of the conditioning relationships between the causes / effects using the 24 conditions), tanha becomes a concept describing an accumulation to support the arising of the specific lobha-mula cittas which are clinging." Hi Rob, I see what you are talking about now. In terms of citta process accumulation comes both before and after desire. The 'before' is not explicit in the dependent arising formula. Accumulation conditions javana then javana is accumulated (becomes habitual). And yes I agree 'like' is an accumulation and, according to CMA conventional, what most people think is desirable. I am sure there are other reasons for desirability but abhidhamma doesn't go into them. Larry 38416 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:49pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard and Ken, Butting in here. Howard, I have just had a thought to respond to a number of your posts, perhaps because they are short and easy to reply, so please don't think that I am targeting you particularly. ;-) > Ken: I suggested in my previous post that you were, unwillingly, > insisting on an element of self. That is, you couldn't accept the > reality of soulless, disinterested phenomena arising for the > briefest of moments, conditioning their successors, and disappearing > forever. Of course, I know you accept this in principle, but I > wonder why you insist on some sort of personal involvement in > satipatthana. If there was something more than conditioned dhammas > then there could be actions (rites and rituals) leading to the > arising of panna. But there is nothing more, and so panna arises > independent of ceremony and only when the conditions are right. > ========================= Howard: I said nothing of "personal involvement" or "self". I spoke of action (kamma). Practice is a volitional activity, it is cetana in action. If that can only mean to you the acting of some alleged self, that is not my problem, because that is not my perspective. ------------------------------------- Sukin: Is there any activity without cetana? If not, then why particularly give attention to `practice', by this I mean `acting upon a thought about `formal sitting' or for the matter any idea of trying to experiencing dhammas directly'? I hear you as saying that this is crucial, because otherwise there is no practice. Am I correct? Metta, Sukin. 38417 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:49pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard (and Ken), > Ken:… a 'condition for practice,' so I am happy with that terminology. > You, however, think the suttas describe satipatthana as the end > result and you think study [and formal meditation] are practices > that condition the end result. > ========================== Howard: No. Satipatthana, the setting up, or establishing, of mindfulness is a practice. Vipassana is its consequence. ---------------------------- Sukin: I am not sure, but from the way it sounds, you seem to be saying that the practice involves not only satipatthana, but also something else. By `setting up' and `establishing of mindfulness', you seem to be pointing to moments other than when there *is* mindfulness of a dhamma. In fact, I would consider pariyatti as being `setting up or establishing' of conditions for the practice, which is satipatthana. Sorry if I am mistaken. Metta, Sukin. 38418 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:50pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard (and Ken), > Ken: That's a fair comment (apart from calling study a practice). As far > as I am aware, the three forms of study described in the suttas are > the only preconditions for satipatthana. ======================== Howard: Okay, then. If mine is a "fair comment", then I stand by my characterization of yours being a one-fold path. However, you conflate satipatthana, the setting up of mindfulness, with vipassana, its consequencel. ---------------------------- Sukin: Ultimately, `hearing the dhamma' and `wisely reflecting on it' is only another conditioned dhamma. If there is no sati and the citta is not kusala, then the `dhamma heard' is just meaningless words, or worse a condition for miccha ditthi and so any `reflection' only makes matters worse. However, when there is panna, which is what you are allowing for ;-), then sati and other wholesome factors are also being developed. So saying that it is a `one-fold path' is contradictory, don't you think? Metta, Sukin 38419 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:50pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard (and Ken), > Ken: But they are not taught in a prescriptive way (as if there was a > self who could do something now and benefit from it later). ===================== Howard: It is not mandatory to associate prescriptive behavior with a "self". ------------------------------ Sukin: I am trying to think of a situation when it wouldn't be so but can't find any. Could you provide me with an example of one? Metta, Sukin. 38420 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard (and Sarah), > Sarah: The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > thought about rightly or wrongly. > ======================= Howard: How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing right now"? Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is impermanence witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, there is no cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? If so, what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and a cessation? The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are problems with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual overlay or filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. ----------------------------- Sukin: Perhaps the `conceptual overlay' is that which is conditioned by `doubt'. As we know, ultimately dhammas and their characteristics are inseparable, so in the beginning there will be knowing only the visesa lakkhana (particular characteristic) of dhammas. But as panna develops to vipassana nana, the tilakkhana can appear as clear as the visesa lakkhana can be, I think. So I don't see a problem with the "momentary view" at all. Metta, Sukin 38421 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Howard (and Bhante), Butting in. > Bhante: As I went deeper into the meditation I began to see directly that there > is a very subtle tightness in mind even when I didn't notice it before. =========================== Howard: Whether or not tranquilizing and releasing is the whole of the matter, I sure do concur that it is of central importance. It has been my direct experience that mind and body are intimately connected, that mental constriction (craving, clinging, desire, and upset) is reflected in bodily tension, and that bodily tension is reflected in mental constriction. Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind. As regards my own practice, when engaged in sitting meditation, the calm comes quickly and easily, and where I have to apply effort and attention is with respect to maintaining clarity and avoiding a sinking of a mind overcome by calm. When not engaged in formal meditation, the clarity is (relatively) greater than the calm, and then my attention needs to concentrate on observation of bodily sensations, especially tensions, calming them, and letting them go. --------------------------------- Sukin: There are many ways that citta, cetasikas and rupa condition each other and individually. How exactly these are conditioned at any given moment only panna can know. If we are truthful to our own level of understanding, we might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. The best attitude would be to study the texts, and even then, if one observes in experience what the texts say, we should know that it is just `thinking'. And do the texts say about such things as `bodily tension' and `mental constriction'? Is this not a kind of observation no different from, for example, psychology and medicine? And what is this, "Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind". Who observes what!! Neither any `mind' lasts long enough to observe nor does any `body' and subsequently any relationship except by "thinking"! Does not this kind of observation encouraging of "atta view"? This is why it is very important to know about satipatthana and the objects which it can take. Otherwise we will indulge in practices which only encourage atta sanna. And this business about `calm' as being a necessary factor for understanding is I believe and error in `thinking'. Here too there seem to be a misunderstanding of what the object of panna of the level of satipatthana is and how it is developed. Panna of a higher level is conditioned by that of the lower levels via sankhara. Calm has no role in this development and to think that it does, seems to me to condition again, wrong practice of one kind or the other. Got to run now. Will say more when you respond. Metta, Sukin 38422 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard (and Sarah), Butting in. > Sarah: With an idea of self, there's no way to become detached from realities, no > way for attachment to be reduced and no way there can be the eradication > of anusaya (latent tendencies). This can only come about by understanding > the arising and falling away of realities and thereby the inherent > unsatisfactoriness of what is clung to, as I see it. =========================== Howard: Okay, I see. Yes, I agree that there will be no uprooting of deep seated, latent tendencies until stream entry. However, more superficial uprootings and moderations will precede that, "preparing the mind" as it were. This is the reason for sila and samadhi. -------------------------- Sukin: Conditions are extremely complex, such that if today we were to behave very morally and our minds are not restlessly darting around sense objects, it says nothing about anysaya, esp. with regard to ditthi. What *does* show whether we are well developed along the Path is the arising of panna in whatever circumstance, taking as object any state of mind, including akusala. And though it is true that development of panna does condition better understanding of sila, and this when relatively firm allows for less and less distraction, I don't see it as a matter of `leading to' or `preparing the mind' for anything. Because if these are in fact the result of understanding, then to think them as precondition seems like wrong view. And this will in turn condition wrong practice. Metta, Sukin. 38423 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > ===== > > > Is there some kind of rule on what kind of > > consciousnesses can produce specific rupas? > > ===== > > I have a chart (not with me now, I will summarize and send it later > today) which shows which cittas can produce rupa. > > ===== Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA, Table 6.2, page 249 lists which cittas can produce: - Conscious born matter - Postures - Intimation - Smiling Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 38424 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > When we analyze Paticcasamuppada from an Abhidhamma perspective > (defining each of the 12 causes / effects as ultimate entities where > possible, and defining the nature of the conditioning relationships > between the causes / effects using the 24 conditions), tanha becomes > a concept describing an accumulation to support the arising of the > specific lobha-mula cittas which are clinging. > > Specifically: > - tanha is craving for visible data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible- > data and dhamma-data (it is a tendency, an accumulation, a habit) > - upadana is sense-door clinging, false view clinging, rite-and- > ritual clinging, self-clinging (i.e. lobha & ditthi) > - Tanha conditions upadana through the following conditions: > a. Root > b. Co-nascence > c. Mutuality > d. Support > e. Natural Decisive Support > f. Association > g. Presence > h. Non-disappearance > > Later today, I will forward a reference from the Visuddhimagga on > this. ===== Vism XVII, 248 says: As regards the four kinds of clinging taught in this way, craving for sense desires is a condition in one way, as decisive support, for the first kind, namely sense-desire clinging, because it arises in relation to the objective field in which craving delights. But it is a condition in seven ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, non-disappearance and root-cause or in eight ways, as those and decisive-support as well, for the remaining three kinds. And when it is a condition as decisive-support, then it is never conascent. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With craving as a condition, clinging'. Rob K is correct - tanha is often used (especially in the Suttas) as a synonym for lobha. Perhaps my limiting definition based on how tanha is used in paticcasamuppada is inappropriate in the context of this discussion. Metta, Rob M :-) 38425 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:25pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly, succeeding one another; there never is a moment without citta and never a moment without feeling. We cling to happy feeling, somanassa, but we know so little about ourselves and thus we may not recognize the different kinds of happy feeling. When we are laughing there is happy feeling with lobha-múla-citta, but we may not realize that there is happy feeling which is akusala. We should not try to suppress laughing, but it is useful to know the different types of realities which arise. When we see someone else there can be happy feeling arising with attachment or happy feeling arising with kusala citta. The cittas which think of the person we meet are akusala cittas when there is no dåna (generosity), síla (good moral conduct), or bhåvanå (mental development). Feeling is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Feeling is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. Feeling which arises, falls away immediately, it does not stay. Feeling is a khandha , it is one among the five khandhas, namely, vedanåkkhandha(1). We cling to feeling and we take it for self. If our knowledge of feeling is merely theoretical we will not know feeling as it is. When there is awareness of feeling when it appears it can be known as only a type of nåma and not self. *** (1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 2. Conditioned realities can be classified as five aggregates or khandhas: the khandha of rupas, of feelings, of perceptions (sa~n~naa), of f"formations" or "activities" (all cetasikas other than feeling and sa~n~naa) and of consciousness. ***** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38426 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:08am Subject: Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Friend Phil, Sorry I didn't address your earlier post on this subject but I was busy trying to finish the series in time for Rob's presentation. Now I am on a brief vacation (for Eid, the break after Ramadan) and I can take a breather. You and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this issue of Right Resolve because it appears that you have mentally bought into the K. Sujin philosophy of "no control". I was speaking from the Buddha's teaching that we each can make an effort to control the arising of unwholesome states of mind. Phil, you write, "The arising of unskillful/evil thoughts is inevitable" and yet this is not true. An arahant doesn't have unskillful/evil thoughts, and becoming an arahant is the goal of Buddhism. So when I wrote that we should resolve to get to the point where we never have unskillful/evil thoughts, that is what I meant. You also wrote, "Resolving to do what is impossible is not a good suggestion to lay on teens, I posted, and I would still agree with that." Now, what is impossible about becoming an arahant? It is not even impossible for a teen to become an arahant, as the Buddha taught. You see, I write things to inspire people to accomplish the most that they can accomplish; that is why my writing made such a strong impact on you. I applaud your efforts to rid yourself of the evil thoughts you are now having in regard to the conflict in Iraq. I'm sure that you will eventually solve the problem since you have resolved to. However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a very good idea. You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with patience. (go to www.accesstoinsight.org for selected suttas if you don't have the printed copies) Metta, James 38427 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi RobM (& Nina), I wrote a longer note to you which I lost when I tried to add the link to my earlier post. Anyway, briefly: Here’s the post I referred to. The subject was ‘RobM - kamma-patha qus’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38125 I’m glad your talk went so well. You had certainly put a lot of work into the preparation and I'm sure this was greatly appreciated. With regard to the objects of satipatthana as given in the Satipatthana Sutta, I don’t think there’s any point in referring to awareness of sitting etc unless it is clearly explained what the realities are that are referred to as sitting. Otherwise, all we do is to reinforce wrong views of self and postures. Under kaayaanupassi in the commentary, it makes clear: “There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived materiality, in a body”. Under ‘Modes of Deportment’ the text makes it clear that it is not referring to the ‘general sense of awareness’ which ‘readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving’ etc. It stresses that such general awareness ‘does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness’. The particular meaning of awareness as used in the Tipitaka, refers to the awareness of characteristics of realities, of namas and rupas only. The commentary stresses that in this Sutta too, ‘the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken’ and indeed the development of satipatthana ‘sheds the belief in a living being, knocks out the idea of a soul, and is both a subject of meditation and the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness.’ I'll be glad for any of your comments. (You may also like to see posts under 'Posture' and 'Satipatthana Sutta amd commentaries' in U.P. sometime) On our trip, Khun Sujin was talking about a text which refers to three things which hinder the understanding of the rising and falling of realities. One of these is the idea of ‘posture’. If we have an idea that in reality there is ‘sitting’, ‘standing’ etc, there can’t be any understanding of the rising and falling away of rupas. Nina or I may add more on this later. (Nina, do you know where a text referring to these 3 things is?) Metta, Sarah p.s. You may have missed other posts addressed to you from time to time. I know that often when I address posts to you they’re rather late as I often have to wait for time to pull out texts etc. I have two suggestions for anyone who is not always able to follow the list: a) go to our new back-up of archives: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Download to scroll through easily off-line on flights etc Some search facility too (but ignore google as it’s not yet working:-/). Also, if anyone has a yahoo account, they now give a very large memory capability and good search facility. It’s worth opening an account just to receive DSG mail in the in-box for searches and replies. I use it all the time for this. You could probably type in RobM after a break, for example. Hope this helps. Best wishes with the book. I know you’re very busy right now. Metta, Sarah ======== --- robmoult wrote: > > p.s RobM - hope you saw my other brief comments on kamma-patha > which > > followed several discussions in India. > > ======== > > Sorry, I missed it. Please let me know which message it was. 38428 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > I wrote a longer note to you which I lost when I tried to add the link to > my earlier post. Anyway, briefly: > > Here's the post I referred to. The subject was `RobM - kamma-patha qus' > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38125 ===== Interesting post - I will reply later after consulting the Patthana ===== > > I'm glad your talk went so well. You had certainly put a lot of work into > the preparation and I'm sure this was greatly appreciated. > > With regard to the objects of satipatthana as given in the Satipatthana > Sutta, I don't think there's any point in referring to awareness of > sitting etc unless it is clearly explained what the realities are that are > referred to as sitting. Otherwise, all we do is to reinforce wrong views > of self and postures. > > Under kaayaanupassi in the commentary, it makes clear: > > "There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived > materiality, in a body". > > Under `Modes of Deportment' the text makes it clear that it is not > referring to the `general sense of awareness' which `readily do dogs, > jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving' etc. It > stresses that such general awareness `does not shed the belief in a > living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither > becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of > Mindfulness'. > > The particular meaning of awareness as used in the Tipitaka, refers to the > awareness of characteristics of realities, of namas and rupas only. > > The commentary stresses that in this Sutta too, `the particular and not > the general sense of awareness is to be taken' and indeed the development > of satipatthana `sheds the belief in a living being, knocks out the idea > of a soul, and is both a subject of meditation and the development of the > Arousing of Mindfulness.' > > I'll be glad for any of your comments. (You may also like to see posts > under 'Posture' and 'Satipatthana Sutta amd commentaries' in U.P. > sometime) ===== I understand and agree with the importance of not taking the Sutta too literally. In my own defence :-), I was targetting 12 year-olds and I had allocated less than one minute for this subject. With an older audience and more time, it would have been a different story. I hope that they rememeber that there is a Satipatthana Sutta and make the effort to truly understand it some day. ===== > a) go to our new back-up of archives: > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > Download to scroll through easily off-line on flights etc > > Some search facility too (but ignore google as it's not yet working:-/). > > Also, if anyone has a yahoo account, they now give a very large memory > capability and good search facility. It's worth opening an account just to > receive DSG mail in the in-box for searches and replies. I use it all the > time for this. You could probably type in RobM after a break, for example. ===== Hey, this search site is EXCELLENT!!!! I was trying to locate an old post of mine where I analyzed Paticcasamuppada using Patthana and I was able to locate it in minutes! (message 33260, in case you are interested). Does this mean that I can delete all the old .zip files from the Files section of DSG? They are taking up a lot of space and have been made effectively obsolete by this excellent search site. I am now to going to see what other messages I have missed :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 38429 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante, Thank you for your long reply and kind comments addressed in a post to me. Let me just start with one essential point where we have some agreement. You wrote: --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > You said: "S: I would change this around a little to say that the false > idea of a > personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be > eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is > any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be > aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that > this false idea can be known." > > Bhante: > > Here we basically agree but I would not use the "eradicate". Because > this process most be seen many, many, many thousands or millions of > times > before the idea of a personal self is eradicated. ….. S: Actually, I was glad to see some agreement here as it was the one point that Eric and Howard picked up for discussion because they didn't agree;-). Back to other areas where we either don’t agree or use different language (as others have mentioned). By way of introduction, you wrote: ..... > One thing that will helps us both is if you would remember that I come > from a practical approach to the Buddha's teachings not strictly from > the > suttas. ….. S: I’m also interested in a practical approach. Honestly, I don’t know what is more practical than learning about and understanding the present realities now as we speak. Life and the world only exist in the present moment of seeing or touching or hearing or thinking about what’s just been seen and so on. If we don’t learn more about what the present reality is now, but continue to think in terms of other practices, other more suitable occasions or objects for sati to be aware of, or if we continue to confuse the conventional world with absolute dhammas, then I would see this as a very impractical approach. So the suttas, the abhidhamma or the commentaries are not, as I see it, just for the following of a theory or an impractical approach but as sign-posts which point out present practice and present development of satipatthana. I’m not sure what strictly and ‘not strictly’ really means, but if we have the idea that our own interpretations of experience are more reliable as sign-posts, I think we’re likely to wander down blind alleys and get lost. Of course the teachings have to be tested out and verified, but this doesn't mean they cannot be used as our guide. .... > Bhante: > > These are words that don't have any practical meaning to me, How is this > done? Seeing that 'Suffering' and the 'Cause of Suffering' is Craving > it > seems to me to aware of how it arises and to let it go is the way to > that > "detachment" and it is the way to overcome the false idea of a > (personal) > 'self'. …. S: With respect, the way to understand these Truths as taught by the Buddha is the eightfold path beginning with right understanding. What does right understanding know? It has to understand any conditioned dhammas for what they are – both namas and rupas. It is impossible for there to be detachment from conditioned dhammas without such understanding. Craving is one. …. >So One is actually letting go of attachment in a real sense when > they let go of the craving in that moment. This letting go of craving is > the way the third Noble Truth (the cessation of suffering) is > experienced > and the method used agrees completely with the 4th Noble Truth. again I > am again talking about direct experience not philosophical concepts. …. S: Again, with respect, there is no one or thing that can ‘let go’. If craving has arisen, sati can be aware of it at that moment and panna can understand its nature. The path of satipatthana is the awareness, understanding and detachment from what is conditioned. The practice is surely not the ‘letting go’ of unwholesome states, but the understanding of any dhammas. Sati can never become a bala (power) while there is a subtle or not so subtle desire to be rid of certain realities. On the otherhand, by understanding the nature of craving when it arises, it will be seen for what it is more and more, just like all other realities. …. > Bhante: > > No actually it is talking about experiencing dependent origination and > thinking about it. According to the text what is ignorance? Isn't it the > seeing directly the 4 Noble Truths? Above I have shown how this takes > place. …. S: I think you mean the *not* seeing the 4 Noble Truths. I think that ignorance is a mental state which arises very often in a day – with all unwholesome moments of consciousness in fact. Without ignorance, there would be no craving or anger, no wrong views or conceits. In addition, without ignorance samsara would not continue life after life. Whilst seeing, hearing and other experiences are considered satisfactory or worthwhile in any sense, life continues on. Ignorance can only be understood gradually too by the development of panna (understanding) which gets to know the characteristics of the various dhammas being experienced now for what they are. If seeing or hearing or visible object or sound are not known directly, the arising and falling away of these same dhammas cannot be known, let alone the unsatisfactory or impermanent characteristics. …. >Also, when talking about the 4 Noble Truths the Buddha wasn't > talking about the 'Cause of suffering' being ignorance. …. S:I believe you were also referring to D.O. Either way, ignorance is there. Without ignorance, there is no further attachment, no further becoming and no further suffering. Both are eradicated at the stage of arahant. …. >In a general > sense what you are saying is true and I am talking about an experiential > sense. …. S: I believe that the theory and practice should be in accord. What we read in the texts is about the development of right theory and right practice – patipatti. ….. >Craving must be recognized when it arises and through my own > direct experience, I have seen that right after a feeling arises, the > craving arises and it always manifests as a subtle tightness or tension > somewhere in the mind and body. …. S: I understand what you are saying and many people would say the same. I do a lot of yoga and there is also a lot of talk about releasing tensions, calming the body and mind, following the breath and so on. As I just suggested to another friend in some comments about postures, it doesn’t take a Buddha’s wisdom to give these conventional kinds of advice and they don’t lead to the dispelling of any wrong views of self, unless there is an underlying understanding of the various elements, the various namas and rupas whilst listening or giving such instructions,which of course ther may be. In order to understand dhammas as elements, there has to be some basic understanding about what feelings really are, how they arise at every moment with every consciousness, how craving can follow the experience of any object at all (except for the 9 lokuttara dhammas), clinging regardless of whether a sound or sight or bodily experience or feeling or wholesome state or anything is being experienced or has just been experienced. When we refer to ‘subtle tightness and tension…’, again we have to understand what is really experienced through the body-sense and mind, otherwise it’s likely to all be mixed up and taken for ‘my’ experience again as I see it. I know this will be sounding like more theory and it’s getting long, so I’ll stop here and look forward to discussing further those parts of what I have written which you don’t agree with. I'm happy for you to be direct and frank as I'm sure we can all benefit from such dialogue. I really appreciate your honest reflections and participation here with us all. Also, I’m sure I may well be missing many of your points and apologise in advance for this. I’ve read your other comments with interest too and will keep them in mind for future discussion. Metta, Sarah ======= 38430 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:35am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, ========= I saw where you said you trained with Mahasi sayadaw (or in his temple?) and that you were very successful. But are you saying this training wasn't right - looking back now? with respect RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Bhante and All, I saw the name Bhante Vimalaramsi at some websites long time ago. The history said that he went to Myanmar in 1988. I may be wrong for the figure '1988' but he may come to Myanmar a few years earlier. And because of country's affair, he had to move to Malaysia soon. Actually Mahasi Sayadaw 'Bhante Sobhana' the great died on Saturday 15.8.82. I was wondering how he was trained by Mahasi Sayadaw (Bhante Sobhana). Round about that time there were some Nayaka Sayadaws (patronic teacher monks) like Bhante Sujata of Moulmein or Mawlamyaing and Bhante Pandita etc. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38431 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,114 Dear Larry, Thank you for your reply. Nina already mentioned that she would first go through 'bhavangacittas' and later would go to 'dream matters'. Let us wait for your messages on dream. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams > > > is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' > (Pm. > > 478). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > -- > > Dear Larry, > > > > Is it right to say that dreams are seen only by functional > > consciousness? Could you please write down the vithi vara of a > dream? > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Hi Htoo, > > I don't know anything about this. Let's wait and see what Nina has to > say. > > Larry 38432 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:45am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Hello Htoo, Robert, all, I don't think Bhante claimed to have been trained by Mahasi Sayadaw, did he? At this link he gives a fuller telling of his story: http://www.dhammasukha.org/about_teacher.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, > ========= > I saw where you said you trained with Mahasi sayadaw (or in his > temple?) and that you were very successful. But are you saying this > training wasn't right - looking back now? > with respect > RobertK > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Robert K, Bhante and All, > > I saw the name Bhante Vimalaramsi at some websites long time ago. The > history said that he went to Myanmar in 1988. I may be wrong for the > figure '1988' but he may come to Myanmar a few years earlier. And > because of country's affair, he had to move to Malaysia soon. > > Actually Mahasi Sayadaw 'Bhante Sobhana' the great died on Saturday > 15.8.82. I was wondering how he was trained by Mahasi Sayadaw (Bhante > Sobhana). Round about that time there were some Nayaka Sayadaws > (patronic teacher monks) like Bhante Sujata of Moulmein or > Mawlamyaing and Bhante Pandita etc. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 38433 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:53am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I have never said that clinging manifest as a headache. What I have said many, many times is craving manifests as a subtle tightness or tension and is most often seen in the head. This is a big difference. But the real problem I think is I am coming from direct experience and use words to try and describe it that you are not used to. ..snip..snip..[ I snip here because the moderators repeatedly reminded me offlist to snip. So this snipping is not showing disrespectful to Bhante Vimalaramsi as he once said to Tep at triplegem]... I use terms that you may not be familiar with please don't hesitate to ask me to explain it further. The whole idea of practicing the Buddha Dhamma is to help us other to understand what is taught. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante, I can sense. I have read your message of milking of a goat by a PhD who fail to obtain milk. You seem to be a sutta expert as you are frequently saying suttas, suttas, suttas. But this time you did not quote any sutta regarding 2 brothers. I can sense directly and indirectly. Whatever milking or 2 brother bhikkhus are used, the essence is that you implied that someone is talking just by intellect without any experience. Anyway I follow the right Path. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 38434 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:57am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:51:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Sukin: > Is there any activity without cetana? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: There's no *willed* activity without cetana. Not all activity is directy willed. In particular, the arising of wisdom, while due to causes and conditions, among which are acts of cetana, is not directly willed. --------------------------------------------- If not, then why particularly give > > attention to `practice', by this I mean `acting upon a thought > about `formal sitting' or for the matter any idea of trying to experiencing > dhammas directly'? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Practice, in any context, is directly willed activity. In the Buddhist context, it pertains to setting up of conditions (e.g., the setting up of mindfulness) that will lead eventually to wisdom. ----------------------------------------------- I hear you as saying that this is crucial, because > > otherwise there is no practice. Am I correct? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Without engaging in willed actions in accordance with the teachings of the Buddha, one is not a practicing Buddhist, and there is no reason why such a one should make any more "progress" than a follower of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism. Jainism, or some materialist philosophy. If there is no Buddhist practice, that is, willed actions within a given mindstream setting up conditions for direct gnosis of the Dhamma, then progress or lack of progress for all "beings" is a random matter. If you say that no, there is a difference - one who has heard and studied the Dhamma will make progress, my comment is twofold: 1) It is sheer luck, i.e., is independent of choice, as to whether one has heard the Dhamma and studied it or not, and 2) You also follow a one-fold path consisting of nothing but study. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38435 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:00am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:51:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Sukin: > Ultimately, `hearing the dhamma' and `wisely reflecting on it' is only > another conditioned dhamma. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Sure, everything arises according to causes and conditions. So what? Among those conditions is cetana. ---------------------------------------- If there is no sati and the citta is not > > kusala, then the `dhamma heard' is just meaningless words, or worse a > condition for miccha ditthi and so any `reflection' only makes matters > worse. However, when there is panna, which is what you are allowing > for ;-), then sati and other wholesome factors are also being developed. > So saying that it is a `one-fold path' is contradictory, don't you think? ------------------------------------ Howard: No. ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38436 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:51:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Howard: It is not mandatory to associate prescriptive behavior with > a "self". > ------------------------------ > Sukin: > I am trying to think of a situation when it wouldn't be so but can't find > any. Could you provide me with an example of one? > ======================== Fascinating. ONE example? I *never* associate prescriptive activity with a self. I associate it with willing, with cetana ... period. I don't believe in any agent of action. I just don't. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38437 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:52:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Sukin: > I am not sure, but from the way it sounds, you seem to be saying that > the practice involves not only satipatthana, but also something else. > By `setting up' and `establishing of mindfulness', you seem to be pointing > to moments other than when there *is* mindfulness of a dhamma. In > fact, I would consider pariyatti as being `setting up or establishing' of > conditions for the practice, which is satipatthana. Sorry if I am mistaken. > ===================== No. Satipatthana, the setting up of mindfulness, is exactly that - an application of the formational factor, cetana. Cetana impels, it directs, it forms. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38438 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:53:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Howard: How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality > appearing right > now"? Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is > impermanence > witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, > there is no > cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of > cessation? If so, > what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and a > cessation? > The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are problems > with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual > overlay > or filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual > scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. > ----------------------------- > Sukin: > Perhaps the `conceptual overlay' is that which is conditioned by `doubt'. > As we know, ultimately dhammas and their characteristics are > inseparable, so in the beginning there will be knowing only the visesa > lakkhana (particular characteristic) of dhammas. But as panna develops > to vipassana nana, the tilakkhana can appear as clear as the visesa > lakkhana can be, I think. So I don't see a problem with the "momentary > view" at all. > > Metta, > Sukin > ======================= Sorry, but the foregoing response strikes mer as a sort of catechism, a declaration of belief. Okay. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38439 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:53:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Dear Howard (and Bhante), > > Butting in. > > >Bhante: As I went deeper into the meditation I began to see directly > that there > >is a very subtle tightness in mind even when I didn't notice it before. > =========================== > Howard: Whether or not tranquilizing and releasing is the whole of the > matter, > I sure do concur that it is of central importance. It has been my direct > experience that mind and body are intimately connected, that mental > constriction > (craving, clinging, desire, and upset) is reflected in bodily tension, and > that > bodily tension is reflected in mental constriction. Letting go of one tends > to let go of the other, and most especially, the body door is a relatively > easily accessible doorway to the mind. > As regards my own practice, when engaged in sitting meditation, the > calm comes quickly and easily, and where I have to apply effort and > attention is > with respect to maintaining clarity and avoiding a sinking of a mind > overcome > by calm. When not engaged in formal meditation, the clarity is > (relatively) > greater than the calm, and then my attention needs to concentrate on > observation of bodily sensations, especially tensions, calming them, and > letting > them go. > --------------------------------- > Sukin: > There are many ways that citta, cetasikas and rupa condition each other > and individually. How exactly these are conditioned at any given moment > only panna can know. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Nice pure theory, Sukin. Every timer I read "Only pa~n~na can know," I understand this to be a declaration of hopelessness. It's much like sentences of the form "God will provide" and "Only God can say". ------------------------------------------- If we are truthful to our own level of > > understanding, we might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. The > best attitude would be to study the texts, and even then, if one observes > in experience what the texts say, we should know that it is > just `thinking'. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Unless one looks for oneself, looks directly, one will never know. One will be nothing but a memorizer. -------------------------------------------- > And do the texts say about such things as `bodily tension' and `mental > constriction'? Is this not a kind of observation no different from, for > example, psychology and medicine? > And what is this, > "Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the > body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind". > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suggest looking, Sukin, instead of not looking and just saying "no". ---------------------------------------------- > > Who observes what!! Neither any `mind' lasts long enough to observe > nor does any `body' and subsequently any relationship except > by "thinking"! Does not this kind of observation encouraging of "atta > view"? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: No. You are just playing mind games and word games, and are avoiding direct investigation. ---------------------------------------------- > This is why it is very important to know about satipatthana and the > objects which it can take. Otherwise we will indulge in practices which > only encourage atta sanna. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Satipatthana is not something to "know about". So long as you only "know about" it, and do not engage in it, you are merely playing concept games. ------------------------------------------------ > And this business about `calm' as being a necessary factor for > understanding is I believe and error in `thinking'. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is hilarious. Just read what the suttas have to say about calm and equanimity. They are *necessary*. ------------------------------------------------ Here too there seem to > > be a misunderstanding of what the object of panna of the level of > satipatthana is and how it is developed. Panna of a higher level is > conditioned by that of the lower levels via sankhara. Calm has no role in > this development and to think that it does, seems to me to condition > again, wrong practice of one kind or the other. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Utter nonsense. This sis some sort of philopsophy, but not Dhamma. ----------------------------------------------- > > Got to run now. Will say more when you respond. > > Metta, > Sukin > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38440 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:53:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard (and Sarah), > > Butting in. > > >Sarah: With an idea of self, there's no way to become detached from > realities, no > >way for attachment to be reduced and no way there can be the > eradication > >of anusaya (latent tendencies). This can only come about by > understanding > >the arising and falling away of realities and thereby the inherent > >unsatisfactoriness of what is clung to, as I see it. > =========================== > Howard: Okay, I see. Yes, I agree that there will be no uprooting of deep > seated, latent tendencies until stream entry. However, more superficial > uprootings > and moderations will precede that, "preparing the mind" as it were. > This is > the reason for sila and samadhi. > -------------------------- > Sukin: > Conditions are extremely complex, such that if today we were to behave > very morally and our minds are not restlessly darting around sense > objects, it says nothing about anysaya, esp. with regard to ditthi. > What *does* show whether we are well developed along the Path is > the arising of panna in whatever circumstance, taking as object any > state of mind, including akusala. And though it is true that development > of panna does condition better understanding of sila, and this when > relatively firm allows for less and less distraction, I don't see it as a > matter of `leading to' or `preparing the mind' for anything. Because if > these are in fact the result of understanding, then to think them as > precondition seems like wrong view. And this will in turn condition > wrong practice. > > Metta, > Sukin. > > ========================== I'm sorry, but I just don't get any content from the foregoing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38441 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, Actually I never said that I directly practiced with Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw. Even if I would gone to the Mahasi center when he was alive I doubt that I would have had the opportunity to practice with him directly. He was a very busy Bhikkhu, with his writing and taking care of center business. There are actually many teachers at Mahasi center. When I first went to Mahasi center my first teachers was Sayadaw U Lakkhana and after about 4 months he decided to leave. Then I practiced with Sayadaw U Pandita until the government asked the foreign monks to leave. I was there for a total of 8 months. In 1990 I went back to Burma and spent 2 years very intensely practicing with Sayadaw U Janakabhivamsa and was very successful according to the standards of those who practiced with this method. In the early 1980's I spent 2 years with Sayadaw U Silananda as his attendant, studying abhidhamma and the suttas. Sayadaw U Silananda was one of the chief editors at the 6th Buddhist council in Burma. Hope this clears things up a bit Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38442 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi, James (and Phil) - In a message dated 11/18/04 3:14:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > patience. ====================== Very well said, James! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38443 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, > > > S: Can there be awareness of just `dukkha' or does it have to be the > > > `dukkha of a reality' would you say? If it's the latter, how does > > that > > > awareness develop? > > > > Of course there can be awareness of just 'dukkha'. It happens when > > the awareness of that characteristic is very clear. > ….. > The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > thought about rightly or wrongly. Of course the ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, and of course there cannot be an understanding of them apart from the reality appearing right now. But the awareness is of just dukkha. There is awareness of no other object. I don't understand the word games you are trying to play here. I'm going to try to close this thread, so my comments will be very brief. > > > S: I stressed in the threads with DN that it's not the language or > > the > > > word `vedana' that is of any importance, but the understanding that > > arises > > > having heard about these realities that counts. > > > > That's right. I was just referring to your comment that you could > > accurately assess a person's understanding through conversation. > …. > S: I'm sure I didn't put it this way;-) I'm sure I said or implied that > without conversation one couldn't assess or have any idea. What you wrote was: "The only way to have any idea about another's understanding is by discussion (and then of course it's subject to one's limited understanding)." Unless you mean "The only way to have any idea about another's [conceptual] understanding is by discussion," I disagree. Real understanding is a thing quite distinct from conceptual understanding. To have any idea about another's REAL understanding is by ignoring their theories but observing their actions -- preferably over a long period of time. > > It depends on what I mean by "mind states"... but I'm not very > > attracted to the idea of spinning around and around with endless > > discussion about it. > …. > S: On the contrary, I'm very interested to know what you mean by `mind > states' here as I think it's important to get this clear. Do you or do you > not take the first noble truth of suffering to refer to not only cetasikas > (mind or mental states), but also to cittas and rupas, i.e the 5 (upadana) > khandhas ? I'm not enamoured with the translation of cetasika as "mind state". I was thinking of cittas and cetasikas. Rupas are also dukkha because they are not satisfactory as objects. > > No, you silly! I'm only saying that if you don't know the meanings of > > the words you are using, your conception of what they refer to is > > wrong. So the "conceptual right view" you develop before there is > > direct awareness is, quite simply, wrong! > …. > S: So when we read in suttas such as the Kitagiri Sutta about the gradual > training, how one with faith visits the teacher, pays respect, gives ear, > hears the Dhamma, memorises, examines the meaning, gains a reflective > understanding etc, would there be direct awareness from the start at each > moment of `giving ear', or would the conceptual right view whilst > listening and considering be a `right' condition for awareness to arise > and develop? Or would it simply be wrong here? There is no such thing as "conceptual right view". Sammaditthi is not conceptual, and understanding is not at all a matter of piecing together concepts, cogitation, and speculation. > When we read in other suttas about the necessary factors for stream entry > being: a) association with superior persons, b) hearing the true Dhamma, > c) careful attention, d) practice in accordance with the Dhamma, are the > first three factors right or wrong? > > [SN 55, 55-61 > "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the > obtaining of wisdom,…to the growth of wisdom,….to the expansion of > wisdom,…to the realization of thr fruit of stream-entry,…to the > realization of the fruit of arahantship. > What four? > > Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful > attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma……."] > > Dan, as I understand it, the entire tipitaka and commentaries are about > pariyatti., aabout helping us to develop a firm intellectual right > understanding in order for patipatti or satipatthana to develop. > Otherwise, why would the Buddha have bothered to teach at all? Why do we > both to read or discuss these teachings? You've asked this question before. And I've answered before. Running out of time... > If we think it's helpful to study and listen to the Buddha's teachings, it > shows that we see the value in having a firm and correct conceptual > framework for sammaditthi of the fivefold or eightfold path to develop. Sarah, the words and conceptualizations are just models of reality and not reality at all, and all models are wrong. Some models work better than others, but ultimately all are wrong because they are simply abstractions of the real thing and not the thing itself. The notion of "correct conceptual framework" doesn't make any sense. It just isn't helpful to dwell and nitpick to death conceptual models, especially about things for which there is no real understanding. > As you say, this is a popular view on DSG – indeed we wouldn't be here if > we didn't see the value of considering and reflecting a lot on what has > been taught for our benefit. Reflecting on the way things are known is quite different from speculating on the ways they might be known later. > Do you really see any conceptual right view arising with or about them as > 'incorrect'? I don't believe in "conceptual right view". Dan 38444 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] > conventional right effort constitutes Right Effort. > Nor does conceptual right view does lead to Right View any more than > conventional right effort leads to Right Effort.> > > k: I am wondering which sammadithi are you talking about, > supramundane and mundane. Either. Dan 38445 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:22am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Venerable Sir, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > In the early 1980's I spent 2 years with Sayadaw U Silananda as his > attendant, studying abhidhamma and the suttas. Sayadaw U Silananda was > one of the chief editors at the 6th Buddhist council in Burma. > I have heard that Sayadaw U Silananda has not been well of late. Do you still maintain contact with him? With Great Respect, Rob M :-) 38446 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Robert, I wouldn't go so far to say directly that Mahasi Sayadaw's method is wrong. But I would say that the end results are not the same as the sutta descriptions. In the book "The Progress of Insight" It says about the experience of "Nibbana" is this : "So, through knowledge of equanimity about formations, which is endowed with many virtues, blessings, and powers, he notices the formations as they occur. When this knowledge is mature, having become keen, strong, and lucid, on reaching its culmination point, it will understand any of the formations as being impermanent or painful or without self, just by seeing their dissolution. Now that act of noticing any one characteristic out of the three, which is still more lucid in its perfect understanding, manifests itself two or three times or more in rapid succession. This is called 'Insight leading to emergence'." Now let us compare what it says in the Samyutta Nikaya in Sutta #14 (4) Ascetics and Brahmins (2) of 12 The Nidanasamyutta. I will copy this short sutta in its entirety so you may be able to see the differences. it says: At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, as to those ascetics and brahmins who do not understand (and have insights into) these things, the origin of these things, the cessation of these things, and the way leading to the cessation of these things; what are those things that they do not understand (and have insights into), whose origin they do not understand (and have insights into), whose cessation they do not understand (and have insights into), and the way leading to whose cessation they do not understand (and have insights into)? "They do not understand (and have insights into) aging-and-death, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) birth, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) existence, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) clinging, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) craving, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) contact, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) the six sense bases, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) mentality and materiality, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) volitional formations, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. These are the things that they do not understand (and have insights into), whose origin they do not understand (and have insights into), whose cessation they do not understand (and have insights into), and the way leading to whose cessation they do not understand (and have insights into). "These I do not consider to be ascetics among ascetics, or brahmins among brahmins, and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, in this very life enter and dwell in the goal of asceticism or the goal of brahminhood [nibbana]. "But, bhikkhus, as to those ascetics and brahmins who do understand (and have insights into) these things, the origin of these things, the cessation of these things, and the way leading to the cessation of these things: what are those things that they do understand (and have insights into), whose origin they do understand (and have insights into), whose cessation they do understand (and have insights into), and the way leading to whose cessation they do understand (and have insights into)? "They do understand (and have insights into) aging-and-death, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) birth, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) existence, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) clinging, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) craving, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into)feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) contact, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) the six sense bases, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) mentality and materiality, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) volitional formations, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. These are the things that they do understand (and have insights into), whose origin they do understand (and have insights into), whose cessation they do understand (and have insights into), and the way leading to whose cessation they do understand (and have insights into). "These I consider to be ascetics among ascetics and brahmins among brahmins, and these venerable ones, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, in this very life enter and dwell in the goal of asceticism and brahminhood [nibbana]." As you can plainly see there is a definite difference in these experiences. The Mahasi method says that the meditator sees one of the three characteristics arising rapidly for three times in a row or more then Nibbana arises. And the sutta says that ones sees and understands the cessation of the links of dependent origination and Nibbana occurs with that deep understanding of the 4 Noble Truths and Dependent Origination. This is a very different end result, don't you think? By doing the practice of the sutta instructions the meditator sees and experiences D.O. many many times and when the letting go of craving occurs the cessation of D.O. arises. According to many teachers the one link in D.O. that can be let go of is the Craving and this breaks the wheel of birth and death. This is why the second Noble Truth or the cause of suffering is Craving is so important to see and deeply understand. This is why I stress the letting go of the tensions and tightnesses in both the body and mind, when they arise. To me this is the key to finally experiencing Nibbana. You said: "Venerable Sariputta attained arahatship while he was fanning the Buddha and listening to the Buddha give a Dhamma talk to another monk. He was rapidly entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels while listening to the Buddha. This is because he was Sariputta and his parami meant this was possible. Today is not the time where beings can equal this. " Bhante* And does this mean that he didn't have a meditation practice at all? Insights can come to anyone at any time. Why do you think that Venerable Sariputta was entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels while listening to the Buddha talk? And if this was the case and he was practicing the absorption method of meditation would he have been able to hear what the Buddha said? According to the absorption method of jhana, Venerable Sariputta's mind would have been so absorbed on the object of meditation that he wouldn't have heard anything at all. And another question is why do you think that moving in and out of jhanas rapidly can't be done today? It only takes practice to be able to have this kind of agility of mind. And there are people today who can do this, I guarantee it (I am not talking about my own practice so don't ask. maybe I can and maybe I can't but I won't talk about this). So in answer to your question about whether the Mahasi method is right or wrong, you can decide for yourself. I know that many people get tired of my saying in sutta # such and such it says-- But I am showing that this is not my personal idea or opinion when I use the suttas in this way. So many people today want to use a free-lance style of teaching the Dhamma that sometimes they can say things that don't necessarily agree with the original teachings of the Buddha. I have found over the years that it is always best to show the sutta that I am talking about first then explain what I mean. Also because I take out the ditto marks many people don't like this. But I have found that this repetition helps the true student to get what the Buddha was saying set in their minds. Remember, this was an oral tradition and the repetition is necessary for the deeper understanding of the Dhamma. But today so many people are in a hurry to hear something just once then go on and then they forget what was said just as quickly. The repetition helps to overcome this. Hope I have helped you in some ways. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38447 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Rob, I haven't talked with him for some time. I will try to find out how he is doing. Venerable Silananda has taken on many major projections and maybe has worn himself out with all of these things. He has started a college for Bhikkhus in Yangoon and spends 6 months there and 6 months back here in the U.S. Anyway, I will try and find out. He is my Upajaya (spiritual father) and means a great deal to me. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38448 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:16am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, I am just off to bed (1:00 am here in Japan) but wanted to say I appreciate your reply. Will comment tommorow evening. with respect Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > I wouldn't go so far to say directly that Mahasi Sayadaw's method is > wrong. But I would say that the end results are not the same as the sutta > descriptions. 38449 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:30am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Dear Sarah, Thanks for giving right dosage. Nina's post is perfect. There is only one area to talk. But both of you and other abhidhamma learners know the point. But for clarification, I just pointed it out. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------***@@@***@@@***@@@*** Sarah: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Feeling is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Feeling is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. Feeling which arises, falls away immediately, it does not stay. Feeling is a khandha , it is one among the five khandhas, namely, vedanåkkhandha(1). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Sankhara dhamma and sankhara khandha are frequently go into entanglement. Could you or Nina please explain on that? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and of consciousness. ***** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38450 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:14am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: Dhamma Greetings Htoo, Actually I never said that I directly practiced with Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, I read at your site long time ago and that you meditated in Myanmar. When I saw Robert K message, I thought you meditated under Mahasi Sayadaw. Now I am clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Even if I would gone to the Mahasi center when he was alive I doubt that I would have had the opportunity to practice with him directly. He was a very busy Bhikkhu, with his writing and taking care of center business. There are actually many teachers at Mahasi center. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually all bhikkhus are busy including you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: When I first went to Mahasi center my first teachers was Sayadaw U Lakkhana and after about 4 months he decided to leave. Then I practiced with Sayadaw U Pandita until the government asked the foreign monks to leave. I was there for a total of 8 months. In 1990 I went back to Burma and spent 2 years very intensely practicing with Sayadaw U Janakabhivamsa and was very successful according to the standards of those who practiced with this method. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They are great Sayadaws. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: In the early 1980's I spent 2 years with Sayadaw U Silananda as his attendant, studying abhidhamma and the suttas. Sayadaw U Silananda was one of the chief editors at the 6th Buddhist council in Burma. Hope this clears things up a bit Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bhante, now everything seems to be clear. Thanks for your clarification. According to your website, you did a lot of meditation. But this site DSG is mainly on Abhidhamma discussions and they all love Visuddhi Magga. I do not ask you to discuss Abhidhamma. As you are a meditation teacher and you closely read suttas, I think it will be beneficial for all of us (DSG), if you could post 'Mahasatipatthana sutta' bit by bit with original materials. Many of abhidhamma learners will love to learn suttas if you clearly and non-judgementally post suttas bit by bit. Please include original Pali. I mean 1. first pure Pali 2. second Pali followed by translation 3. pure translation 4. your comment and anything that you would like to add and state clearly that what are your words. Which words say 'tranquilise' and which words say 'relax' and which words say 'let it go'. I am looking forward to hearing from you soon. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38451 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Sarah, I think we are basically saying the same things, with a few minor changes. Again my approach is not through words but direct experience so the language is a little different. When I first came onto this site I asked the question about what Pan~n~a meant and I see that you used the word understanding. Is this what Pa~n~na means to you? This is just a question to help me clarify what you are talking about not a leading question to pounce on. If I may suggest you trying one thing when you are practicing your yoga. Try relaxing your mind and body after every posture. I think you will find that there is still some tightness or tension in both your mind and body. I am talking about a subtle tightness not a gross one. When I am giving a Dhamma talk I use a closed hand to represent the tight mind and slowly open it to show how the feeling of openness arises. Then I drop the hand down a little to show the calmness that is like taking a little tiny step down and mind/body becomes peaceful and tranquil. The feeling of letting go of this subtle tightness is like watching a flower open up to the sun. It is an expansive feeling where there is no thoughts or tightnesses at all. This is what I call a pure mind/body, why? Because there is no craving in it at all. There is just a clear open awareness that is very alert and calm, i.e. perfect mindfulness and this is the mind that is redirected back to the meditation object. From my experience after every thought or body movement there is this subtle tightening of mind and body. When one lets go of this, the person will experience a kind of opening or expansive feeling arise in both their mind and body. This was probably not seen or recognized before. The tightness in the head is very subtle and if one is not used to seeing it, it may go unnoticed. I think the main differences between what you are saying and what I am saying is in how craving arises and manifests. You are talking about just being "mindful" of it and I am talking about letting it go and relaxing. There is a subtle difference there. I think the just being aware of it and letting it be is not quite enough. If one doesn't let it go, the rest of the process of Dependent Origination will carry on. For example, in the Satipatthana Sutta it says about the hindrances - "Here there being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sensual desire in me' or there being no sensual desire in him, he understands, 'There is no sensual desire in me'. Lets stop here for a brief moment. This is being mindful to the fact that sensual desire is present or not. And this seems to be what you are talking about when you say just be mindful of this. But there is a much deeper insight to be seen when one goes on with this description it says: "He also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen sensual desire, and how there comes to be the abandoning of the arisen sensual desire, and how there comes to be the future non-arising of abandoned sensual desire". In practical terms I think that just being mindful of the arisen sensual desire is not enough. And this seems to say the same thing. How does the arising of the unarisen sensual desire occur? How does the abandoning of the arisen sensual desire occur? And How does the future non-arising of the sensual desire occur? These are questions that need to be address in practical terms I think. To me just being mindful is not quite enough there has to be more that is done. As it says about right effort 1] notice that an unwholesome desire has arisen. 2] let the arisen unwholesome sensual desire go and relax the tension caused by that unwholesome sensual desire. 3] bring up a wholesome object. 4] stay with that wholesome object. So according to this sutta it takes more than simply seeing an unwholesome object, it takes the effort to change it and to bring up a wholesome object. This means in practical terms to let go of that hindrance, relax both the mind and body (tranquilize the bodily and mental formation as it says in the sutta on Mindfulness of Breathing) then to softly come back to the object of meditation [i.e. the breath and relaxing, loving-kindness, etc.] and then to stay with the wholesome object of meditation as much as possible. Then repeat this process as much as possible, whenever it is needed. In this way a person will begin to see more and more clearly just how this process is seeing dependent origination in action. In this way Pan~n~a (understanding of this process of Dependent origination) deepens and grows. Until eventually the total cessation of suffering is experienced (yes I am talking about Nibbana). This way of dealing with a hindrance can be done not only when formerly sitting in meditation, it can be done whenever a hindrance arises in one's daily activities, too! I hope this has been of some help to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38452 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:38am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 126 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 52 cetasikas. These 52 never arise together. There are 4 groups. The first group is 7 universal mental factors and they have been discussed where they arise. They arise with each of 89 cittas. Second group of cetasikas is 6 particular mental factors or 6 pakinnaka cetasikas. They are vitakka, vicara and piti which are jhanic factors and viriya, adhimokkha, and chanda which are not major jhanic factors. Jhana factors vitakka, vicara, and piti have been discussed in the previous post. Viriya or effort is a cetasika. It does not arise in all of 89 cittas. For example 10 pancavinnana cittas do not need viriya cetasika to do their job. Soon after arammana of 5 senses appear, bhavanga cittas have to stop and pancadvara avajjana citta arises and followed by one of 10 pancavinna cittas. These vinnana cittas are followed by 2 sampaticchana cittas which also do not need viriya as they just receive the object from 10 pancavinnana cittas. By the same token, 3 santirana cittas just investigate and viriya does not arise with them. So there are 10 pancavinnana cittas, 3 santirana cittas, 2 sampaticchana cittas and 1 pancadvara avajjana citta altogether 10 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 16 cittas do not need viriya cetasika in their arising. So viriya arises with ( 89 - 16 = 73 ) 73 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38453 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:45am Subject: Talk between Bhante & Sarah Dear Friends, This is to change the heading that currently running. It is between Sarah and Bhante Vimalaramsi. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38454 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Sarah, E> Please consider this. Hold to the 'I AM' thought/feeling. > You will see what you are not as juxtaposed to this > I AM. Relaxing and insight will come of its own accord > as you will easily quit grasping at objects. .... S> Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit grasping here? I Only then can the conceit I AM dissolve as it will be seen that it is superflous. PEACE E 38455 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 127 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 6 particular cetasikas, 3 jhana factor and viriya cetasika have been discussed. There are another 2 cetasikas in 6 pakinnaka cetasikas. They are adhimokkha cetasika and chanda cetasika. Adhimokkha is decision. It is determination and it has been explained in cetasika portion of Dhamma Thread. We are currently discussing which cetasika can arise with which cittas. 7 universal mental factors of phassa/contact, vedana/feeling, cetana/volition, sanna/perception, ekaggata/one-pointedness, jivitindriya/mental life, manasikara/attention arises with each of 89 cittas. Vitakka cetasika arises only in 44 kamavacara cittas after exclusion of 10 pancavinnana cittas and 11 1st jhana cittas which are 3 loki 1st jhana cittas and 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas. So vitakka arises in 55 cittas of 121 total cittas. Vicara also arises in these 55 cittas. But vicara arises without vitakka in 11 2nd jhana cittas ( 3 loki and 8 lokuttara ). So there are 66 cittas out of 121 cittas where vicara cetasika arises. There are 62 somanassa cittas. Among them 11 4th jhana cittas ( 3 loki and 8 lokuttara ) do not need piti cetasika. So piti cetasika arises in ( 62 - 11 = 51 ) 51 cittas of 121 total cittas. Viriya does not arise in 10 pancavinnana cittas, 1 pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas and 3 santirana cittas,altogether 16 cittas. So viriya arises in ( 89 - 16 = 73 ) 73 cittas of 89 total cittas. Again 10 pancavinnana cittas do not need to determine anything as they they just know their object of 5 senses. So adhimokkha cetasika does not arise in 10 pancavinnana cittas. When vicikiccha citta arises, that citta cannot decide on the object and it is called indecisive citta or suspicion or doubt. This is because there is no adhimokkha cetasika at all in this vicikiccha citta. So adhimokkha cetasika only arises in ( 89 - 10 - 1 = 78 ) 78 cittas of 89 total cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38456 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/18/04 12:33:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > From my experience after every thought or body movement there is this > subtle tightening of mind and body. =================== I have turned my attention to this as a result of your writing along these lines, and it has become quite clear to me, especially as regards thoughts (in my case). I am "excited" at seeing this direct mind-body interaction. This has opened up for me a freshness to my practice, and I thank you very much for it! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38457 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Dear Bhante (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/18/04 12:33:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: From my experience after every thought or body movement there is this subtle tightening of mind and body. =================== I have turned my attention to this as a result of your writing along these lines, and it has become quite clear to me, especially as regards thoughts (in my case). I am "excited" at seeing this direct mind-body interaction. This has opened up for me a freshness to my practice, and I thank you very much for it! With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, Bhante and Sarah, I also want to see direct mind-body interaction. D.O or Dependent Origination has 12 links. I have asked several times. But I was never been explained. Instead I was fed with indigestibles. I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in the D.O am I? With respect, Htoo Naing 38458 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:30:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Htoo: > > Dear Howard, Bhante and Sarah, > > I also want to see direct mind-body interaction. D.O or Dependent > Origination has 12 links. I have asked several times. But I was never > been explained. Instead I was fed with indigestibles. > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > the D.O am I? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > ========================= Forgive me, but I don't understand your question, Htoo. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38459 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I must regretfully decline this request. Because I am not that educated in the Pali language. If you are really interested in this project you could ask Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Bodhi monastery in New Jersey. If he would be willing to take the time and effort I would be very happy to add what little I know. Sorry. Being in a very remote area of the country I don't have the access to the many books I would need to do this project. I have lots of problems even getting the Pali-English dictionaries. I have friends in Malaysia who have promised to get me as many Pali-English dictionaries as possible but I haven't received any yet. So it goes. I wish I could do this project for you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38460 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Howard, Happiness has arisen and it makes me smile. Thank you for that! Strive on. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38461 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Dear Mike, op 18-11-2004 02:52 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > The absence of wrong view isn't any guarantee of right view of any kind, is > it? N: O yes! It is quite a big step when there is less clinging to self. Through the development of right understanding we notice more and more how deeply rooted clinging to self is, no matter what we do. We see ourselves as sitting, we cling to the postures! I want to be good, I again. I study, I again. I write, I again. And so on. Nina. 38462 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Dear Larry and Htoo, op 17-11-2004 00:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: what are dreams? N: Seeing or hearing in a dream seem to be very vivid and real, but we know that they are only cittas thinking of concepts through the mind-door. I find the explanation of the subcommentaries clear. Moments of deep sleep when there are no objects appearing are interspersed by short moments of dreaming, again and again. It seems that a dream lasts, but there are only short moments of them. When the dream seems to last longer, we may dream with kusala cittas (for example, when we dream about the Dhamma), but more often with akusala cittas, cittas with attachment, with fear and anxiety. What we think of during the day is remembered in a dream. As we read, the akusala cittas in a dream do not give as result an unhappy rebirth, but, it can give result in the course of life when supported by other kammas. This reminds us of the danger of akusala citta. Also when awake we often live as if in a dream. Time and again it seems that we see people and things whereas in reality only visible object can be seen. We think of concepts through the mind-door, we remember what we have experienced before. Nina. 38463 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 114 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 114 and Tiika Vis. text: Ch. XIV, 114. (b) When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, then, following on whatever kind of rebirth-liking it may be, the same kinds, being the result of that same kamma whatever it may be, occur as 'life-continuum' consciousness with that same object; and again those same kinds.[44] *** Note 44, taken from the Tiika: "With that same object": if kamma is the life-continuum's object, then it is that kamma; if the sign of the kamma, or the sign of the destiny, then it is one of those' (Pm. 478). N: All bhavanga-cittas arising throughout life in between the processes are the result of the same kamma that produced the rebirth-consciousness and they have the same object. **** Vis. text: And as long as there is no other kind of arising of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a river.[45] *** N: The Tiika explains the word continuity as: the continuity of the bhavangacittas. The bhavanga-cittas succeed one another like a stream, until there is the interruption of this stream when an object impinges on one of the six doorways and a process of cittas begins which experience that object. The Tiika explains that there is the interruption of this stream by another type of citta reckoned as adverting-consciousness (avajjana-citta). This citta is the five sense-door adverting-consciousness which adverts to a sense object, or it is the mind-door adverting-consciousness which adverts to an object through the mind-door. This citta succeeds the last bhavanga-citta before the mind-door process begins. The last bhavanga-citta is in this case the mind-door. Note 45, taken from the Tiika: ' "occurring endlessly": this is, in fact, thus called "bhava.nga" (life-continuum), lit. "limb" (or "practice"--see Ch. II, par. 11) of becoming) because of its occurring as the state of an 'a.nga' ("limb" or "practice") of the rebirth-process becoming (uppatti-bhava)' (Pm. 478). ***** N: a.nga: limb, constituent part or quality. Bhava.nga: constituent part of becoming or life. It keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. There is no moment without citta, also in between the processes or in dreamless sleep when there is not the experience of an object impinging on one of the six doors. Vis. text: This is how the occurrence of those same [nineteen kinds of] consciousness should be understood as life-continuum. N: Just like the rebirth-consciousness, the bhavanga-citta can be of nineteen types. (see Vis. 113). ------------------------ Note of the translator: The word 'bhava.nga' appears in this sense only in the Pa.t.thaana (See Tika-Pa.t.thaana, P.T.S. ed., pp. 159, 169, 324). N: Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: under contiguity-condition (the condition where each citta is succeeded by the next one):< Life-continuum to advertence>. Thus the adverting-consciousness is the first citta of a process, it adverts to the object that impinges on the relevant doorway. It is conditioned by bhavanga-citta by way of contiguity-condition. Note translator: For the commentarial description of dream consciousness and kamma effected during dreams, see VbhA. (commentary to ~Na.na-Vibha.nga, Ekaka) and A.A. (commentary to A. Pa~ncaka-nipaata, no. 196), which largely but not entirely overlap. Pm. [the Tiika] says here: 'The seeing of dreams is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. 478). ***** N: The Co. to the Book of Analysis, Dispeller of Delusion II, p. 154 explains that dreamless sleep is interspersed again and again with kusala citta, akusala citta or kiriyacitta. One may see or hear in one¹s dream, but these are experiences through the mind-door. One remembers what one has experienced before. A footnote, (no 22, on p. 215, quoting a subcommentary to the Book of Analysis, the Muula.tiikaa) explains about the kiriyacitta that dreams: the adverting-consciousness which is a kiriyacitta (inoperative or indeterminate) may arise two or three times, taking the place of the javana cittas and may then be followed by bhavanga-cittas again. Thus, in this case there is dreaming very shortly and then dreamless sleep again. The kiriyacitta does not refer to arahats, because arahats do not dream. The Dispeller of Delusion (p. 154, quoting the Co to the Gradual Sayings) explains about the result of kusala citta and akusala citta in a dream. Since it is weak it cannot produce rebirth-consciousness, but it can give result in the course of life when supported by other kammas. ***** Nina. 38464 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bhavangacittas 2. Dear Htoo, Thank you for your kind mails and suggestion about paras. Indeed, when the material is complex it is helpful to make shorter paras. op 17-11-2004 20:31 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Regarding vinnana, all 89 cittas are vinnana. They can be called > vinnana cittas or simply vinnanas. N: BTW, Viññaa.na is a synonym of citta. I have not seen viññaa.na in combination with citta. The elements that you classify are correct, in conformity with the Suttanta and Abhidhamma. Ht: 10 cittas are pancavinnana dhatu. > 3 cittas are mano-dhatu > 76 cittas are mano-vinnana-dhatu. > ---------- > 89 cittas in total. > > But once I was attacked that manovinnana cittas are cittas that arise > at mano or mind door. So all door-free cittas seem to be not > manovinnana cittas and so they will not be mano-vinnana-dhatu. > Could you please clarify me on these matters? N: The person who denied this was wrong. The santiira.nacitta that performs the function of investigating in the sense-door can also perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. A. Sujin said that this means that it is the same type of citta that performs the latter three functions as santiira.na-citta arising in a sense-door process: it is ahetuka, accompanied by the same types of cittas, but, she said that the Buddha did not introduce another name for the santiira.na-citta when it performs those three functions. I find it helpful to remember that mano-dhaatu performs functions in a sense-door process and mano-viññaa.na dhaatu performs functions in sense-door and mind-door processes and can also be door-freed and process freed. Nina. 38465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dear Phil, op 18-11-2004 03:16 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > I am ringing the bell, if you will, to tell you my dhamma friends about > something > difficult I have been going through. N: I give you part of Lodewijk's address to the 120 Bhikkhus in Sarnath: Suttas help to instill confidence. You read suttas already. We learn that hate will never conquer hate. At the same time understanding of realities helps most to see the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala, and it helps us not to take kusala and akusala for self. While In India we discussed bad thoughts and someone afraid of the future, afraid of having them again. A. Sujin said, when someone asks: what should I do he is thinking of a situation instead of being aware of whatever dhamma appears. She said that he does not understand the meaning of anatta. There are conditions for the arising of akusala. It is not right to keep on regretting it instead of developing understanding. We talked about someone regretting strong akusala. It has arisen and is gone. It has happened. What can he do about what has gone? He is afraid for the future, that it happens again. That does not help, it is only thinking.The more we read the more we understand anattaness. We read in the Tipitaka about seeing and no one in seeing. about hearing and no one in hearing. We cannot really change the course of history, whatever happens is conditioned. But, as Lodewijk stressed, the four Brahma Viharas are the fundamentals of any peaceful society. Nina. 38466 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Howard and Sukin, First Howard: When you said: "avoiding a sinking of a mind overcome by calm." I have a suggestion for you. When mind begins to sink try taking more interest in "HOW" this process occurs. The stronger the interest is the better the energy is. And this should help. I have found that every time I start to take more interest in how this process arises and passes away I get new insights. Now to Sukin; Please if you will indulge me for a moment. What does Pan~n~a mean? This definition is needed so I can understand what you are talking about. When you said: "If we are truthful to our own level of understanding, we might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. This is taught to us when the Buddha expounded the many different discourses on Dependent Origination and through direct practice we can see that we really do know exactly. This is not some form of philosophical debate or intellectual exercise, but can be verified personally when one takes the time and effort to do the practice of meditation in the way described in the suttas. When you asked: "And do the texts say about such things as `bodily tension' and `mental constriction'? I may ask you to go to the Anapanasati Sutta #118 in the Majjhima Nikaya and look at the instruction in how to meditate. If there were no mental or physical constrictions then why would the Buddha tell us to tranquilize the bodily and mental formations? It is quite plain to see for those with the interest to dig into the suttas. When you said: Who observes what!! Neither any `mind' lasts long enough to observe nor does any `body' and subsequently any relationship except by "thinking"! This is just intellectual ruminations that may sound good but have no real meaning. You wouldn't say things like this if you actually took the time to sit in meditation. And when you said: "This is why it is very important to know about Satipatthana and the objects which it can take." This is why I recommend that you try doing the practice instead of surface reading about it. There are no objects that the Satipatthana doesn't "take", whatever arises in the present moment is pretty well covered by this sutta. When you said: "And this business about `calm' as being a necessary factor for understanding is I believe and error in `thinking'. Here too there seem to be a misunderstanding of what the object of panna of the level of Satipatthana is and how it is developed. " What are you thinking about? The suttas continually talk about 'calm'. The calmer ones mind becomes the clearer they are able to see exactly "HOW" the process of dependent origination actually works. And if you will take a look at what I wrote to Robert you may begin to see just HOW important that truly is. It may be a good idea to check your sources of information before making these kinds of statements. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38467 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I really don't understand what you are talking about. Could you please explain the question again? Sorry. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38468 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 11/18/04 2:56:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > First Howard: When you said: "avoiding a sinking of a mind overcome by > calm." I have a suggestion for you. When mind begins to sink try taking > more interest in "HOW" this process occurs. The stronger the interest is > the better the energy is. And this should help. I have found that every > time I start to take more interest in how this process arises and passes > away I get new insights. > ===================== Thank you, Bhante. Sometimes that is not enough for me. I have taken to keeping on lights, and that has helped a bit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38469 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hey Howard & all, BV > From my experience after every thought or body movement there is this subtle tightening of mind and body. > =================== H>I have turned my attention to this as a result of your writing along these lines, and it has become quite clear to me, especially as regards thoughts (in my case). I am "excited" at seeing this direct mind-body interaction. > This has opened up for me a freshness to my practice, and I thank you very much > for it! The way I have been looking at it recently is: Persona = personality view = the mask that is created or worn by awareness. Just an illusory identification with the body as awareness solidifies via clinging towards the body. Ego=I AM= what we think we are, built on a foundation of thought. We begin to question the 'reality' of the persona from within this domain. Wholesome/unwholesome i.e. duality lies in this doamin. All our abhidhamic and suttanic ruminations lie in this domain. In a word, views. When awareness is unbridled by the subtle clinging to the body i.e. we quit looking thru the mask of the person (I think Bhante uses the word impersonal) and thought (views) can be dropped, then awareness can turn around and look in a transpersonal direction at itself. This is the directionless direction in which Nibbana lies. Yes, it is pretty much all in the Anapanasati Sutta. I am glad that Bhante V showed up. I belabored the merits of this sutta on deaf ears for a month or so. I guess most people only listen to elders that look the part. PEACE E 38470 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dhamma Greetings Phil, It may be helpful for you to take a look at what I wrote to Sarah today. I was in Burma doing a very intensive retreat for 2 years with Sayadaw U Janakabhivamsa in 1990 and didn't get back to the world until I left the meditation center. Only then did I find out that one of the major things to happen in my lifetime occurred. Russia had fallen and the end of the cold war was a reality. Imagine my surprise! I found out it happened in 1990, so I was 2 years behind the times. I took this as a sign that whatever happens in the world be it war or troubles of another kind it didn't really affect me or what I was doing. The point being that the more excited and angry you become about world events the less happiness arises. Are you sure that this "war" is real? What is the ultimate reality of this? My suggestion to you is this, stop reading about the war, stop listening about it, stop thinking and pondering about it. Let it go, it is nothing! In the things you wrote about the Buddha putting wholesome thoughts on one side and unwholesome thoughts on another needs to be expanded a bit. He asked himself a few questions before he could actually let the unwholesome thoughts go. 1] does cultivating these kinds of thoughts and feelings lead to my happiness or affliction? 2] does cultivating these kinds of thoughts and feelings lead to the happiness or affliction of others? 3] does cultivating these kinds of thoughts and feelings lead to the happiness and affliction of both? 4] does the cultivating of these kinds of thoughts and feelings lead to the development of wisdom? 5] does the cultivating of these kinds of thoughts and feelings cause difficulties or not? 6] does cultivating these kinds of thought and feelings lead me to Nibbana or do they lead me away from Nibbana? If they do lead to your happiness, and to the happiness of others, and they do lead to the happiness of both, then bring them up often (and smile lots). The reality is this, you hear or read about something upsetting, a painful feeling arises at that time. Mind tightens around those thoughts and feelings. According to the way of seeing the 5 aggregates, feeling is one thing and thoughts (sankhara) are something else. Our habit is to try to stop the feeling with our thoughts and that just doesn't work! The more we try to think our feeling away the bigger and stronger the feeling becomes. So what to do? First and foremost, let go of those thoughts and relax the tension caused by indulging in them. Next notice the tight mental fist wrapped around this feeling and relax again. The Truth (Dhamma) of the present moment is, the feeling is there! And it is alright for that feeling to be there - it has to be because that is the Dhamma of the present moment. So allow the feeling to be there without trying to change it, control it, or make it something other than it is - just a painful feeling. Now smile to yourself for being caught (again!) and mentally laugh at just how crazy mind can be. Then send a wish for your own happiness and well being to yourself. If you actually do this there will be immediate relief. Keep wishing yourself happiness and peace and feel that happiness and peace enter your very being. You might say but, I really need to know what is happening around me in the world but your world is this Fathom long body! A story about how I affected the world around me and I don't read newspapers, listen to radio, or watch TV. I was teaching Loving-kindness meditation to a group of people in Washington DC when George Bush was running against Al Gore. One of my students worked for the Gore\Leiberman campaign. One day she told me that she would not be around for the next meditation class and I asked her why? She said her job was to put make-up on both Al Gore and Joe Leiberman before each debate. At that time I had given her a small mirror that said smile on it and told her to look into it occasionally and smile. (a form of self-metta) Anyway, the night of the debate between Cheney and Leiberman came so she was putting the make up on Joe and he was very restless and could barely sit still. So my friend got the mirror out of her purse and showed it to him. She told him to smile and then she began to tell him some of the things I had taught her in the class. He almost immediately became calm and his mind became focused. As I understand it, when Joe Leiberman had his debate with Cheney it was the best debate of the campaign. Because I don't watch TV, I didn't know what had happened until my friend came back to tell me what she had done. Now, I affected the world around me by example (I smile a lot and practice metta a lot). This is a practical way to change the world if you can only start with yourself. Hope this has been helpful Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38471 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections > Dear Mike, > op 18-11-2004 02:52 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > >> The absence of wrong view isn't any guarantee of right view of any kind, >> is >> it? > N: O yes! It is quite a big step when there is less clinging to self. > Through the development of right understanding we notice more and more how > deeply rooted clinging to self is, no matter what we do. We see ourselves > as > sitting, we cling to the postures! I want to be good, I again. I study, I > again. I write, I again. And so on. Well, yes, this kind of wearing away is a step in the right direction, I guess. Nice that understanding, wise consideration and so on provide the impetus for this kind of right effort, without the present 'willing' of it to occur. All quite natural I think (even inevitable), when the conditions have accumulated. mike mike 38472 From: Hugo Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:08:08 -0000, buddhatrue wrote: > However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to > learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a > very good idea. You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > patience. (go to www.accesstoinsight.org for selected suttas if you > don't have the printed copies) Excellent advice James! When we engage in discussions, there is the danger of fabricating theories, thoughts which then we think are Dhamma but they are not. The problem is that instead of learning Dhamma we fabricate our own version of Dhamma which would be Wrong View, and you know what happens next.....Wrong Action, etc. My personal opinion is that if a discussion is getting too far from the facts (whatever is considered the "facts", e.g. the suttas), or if either part of the discussion don't "know enough", then in starts to be "mental fabrications" and it will lead us to wrong view, wrong action, etc. so I prefer to stop the discussion. Plus, there is the side-effect of the newcomers reading that false Dhamma (yes, I know "false Dhamma" is an oxymoron, but I am trying to make a point) and think that it is Dhamma. Greetings, -- Hugo 38473 From: Hugo Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:26:13 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Howard, Bhante and Sarah, May I? > I also want to see direct mind-body interaction. D.O or Dependent > Origination has 12 links. I have asked several times. But I was never > been explained. Instead I was fed with indigestibles. > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > the D.O am I? D.O. is in, out and all-around. Look at those lights, how did they come to appear?, are they stable or do they "move", "grow and shrink", "flash"? What caused the lights and colors to appear?, do you remember what were you thinking?, how was your breathing? Can you relate a certain kind of breathing and "feeling" that is present when the lights appear? Can you "make the lights appear" at will? Do these lights appear when you are meditating even in completely dark room ? Do they appear when you meditate with the eyes open or closed? How do the lights dissappear?, do they dissappear when any thought comes to focus? If you "lost" the lights because a thought came, can you bring them back? How can you do that?, what does that mean? Do the same with the colours, and any other feeling or thought that arises. Pain in the legs is a very good teaching aid, I can say that by direct experience!!, just don't torture yourself! Greetings, -- Hugo 38474 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:25pm Subject: ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Hello all Thank you for the replies in the "evil thoughts" thread. I won't have time to read them until tonight as I am getting ready for work. A quick question that will help me in considering that thread. In CMA, and in Rob M's book, ottappa it is said that it is respect for others that motivates us to fear wrongdoing. Elsewhere, I have read a very memorable simile that hiri is like not wanting to grab an excrement smeared end of a stick, and ottappa is like not wanting to grab the red hot end. In other words, not wanting to get burned. My concern re "evil thoughts" seems to be more in this area - I fear the kammic implications of wishing (in those momentary impulses when I turn to the news) for the suffering of others. I know that it is foolish to worry about the patisandhi citta that is coming our way, that is beyond our control - but isn't ottappa more in this area, dreading the results of wrongdoing? I don't understand where respect for others comes into it. And can anyone tell me where that two-ended stick simile comes from? I read it somewhere. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil p.s Before reading Nina's reply in the "evil thoughts" thread, I will say that last night I came across the "removal of distracting thoughts" series and found helpful reminders in it. I wonder why I didn't think of that series before posting "evil thoughts?" It takes such a long time for Dhamma to soak in. 38475 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:52pm Subject: Re: ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > And can anyone tell me where that two-ended stick simile comes from? I read > it > somewhere. Thanks in advance. It is on p50 of my book. Buddhaghosa used almost the same analogy in his Atthasalini, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I (p166 in my PTS version). I am not saying that Buddhaghosa copied my idea, but... :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 38476 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Nina, Thanks for explaining this, very clear. Also the viewing of dreams with adverting consciousness makes sense. I was wondering, did the commentary explicitly classify the dream image as a concept? Is a memory a concept? At this point I am understanding concept simply as 'word', made up of name and meaning. But that gives mental images an uncertain status. Also I don't know how to classify nimitta (sign) unless it is as a manifestation of sa~n~naa (perception). Larry 38477 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Wierd Workings of Archives Hi All (especially Sarah / Jon); Great news! All of the old messages from DSG discussions have been put into files which can be accessed at: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ When you click on the first link ( 00001 - 01000 ), and HTML document will open giving the first one thousand messages. It takes a bit to open as it is about 10 Meg in size; don't try this using dial-up :-) The first few files (from 00001 - 01000 up to 08001 - 09000) behave a bit strangely. If you try to select a portion of the file and "cut" / "copy" onto your clipboard and then try to "paste" into your Word document, it won't work. I have discovered that if you paste it to a Notepad document it will work (you can then cut again and paste into your Word document). Let me share a tip with you... I have opened each of the 36 files (up to message 35999). I then saved each of the files on my hard disk (the directory is 360 Meg in size). I have downloaded "Google for Desktop" which gives me the unbelieveably fast Google search capability for Word, PowerPoint, Excel and HTML files. Now, when I type in pakatupanissaya, it finds all instances in my Word documents, PowerPoint files and in all past DSG messages in less than one second (oops, if you put the accent on the "u" in your word file using a Pali font, it won't find it). The really nice thing is that I do not have to be connected to the Internet to search all these old messages! Metta, Rob M :-) 38478 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/18/04 7:49:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for explaining this, very clear. Also the viewing of dreams > with adverting consciousness makes sense. I was wondering, did the > commentary explicitly classify the dream image as a concept? Is a > memory a concept? At this point I am understanding concept simply > as 'word', made up of name and meaning. But that gives mental images > an uncertain status. Also I don't know how to classify nimitta (sign) > unless it is as a manifestation of sa~n~naa (perception). > > Larry > > ======================== Here's my take - just mine. When I'm dreaming and I am "seeing", what I actually "see" is coming through the mind-door, not the eye-door, but it is still visual object (no differently from the mind-door awareness of an*actual* visual object after the eye-door process is completed). If, in a dream, one "sees a person" for example, what the mind actually "sees" is the mental correlate of a visual object, and *not* a person; the "person" is concept-only just as in the corresponding non-dreaming situation. What distinguishes dream experience observationally from waking experience in my opinion is that usually (but not always!), dream experience is not shared whereas waking experience typically is, and dream experience goes in fits and starts and includes events that are "odd" in many ways, the realization of which often leads to lucid dreaming, whereas waking experience has far greater continuity, uniformity of causality, regularity, and predictability, so that waking experience "trumps" dream experience in terms of apparent reality. What distinguishes dream experience from waking experience in terms of production is that dreaming experience is far more the sole result of one's own kamma than is waking experience, though even dream experience has other influences. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38479 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Howard, One thing that occurred to me is that a dream has a narrative quality, like a very short story with lots of free association and not much peripheral detail. In that sense it is similar to discursive thinking. The main difference between a story and a dream, though, is the strong sense of being there. I wonder if that is why an arahant doesn't dream--no sense of being. Larry 38480 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Dhamma Greetings Phil, Here is something that someone sent to me and I thought you would enjoy it. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi New Program..... > INSTALLING LOVE > > Tech Support: Yes, ... how may I help you? > > Customer: Well, after much consideration, I've decided to install > Love. Can you guide me though the process? > > Tech Support: Yes, I can help you. Are you ready to proceed?> > > Customer: Well, I'm not very technical, but I think I'm ready. What > do I do first?> > > Tech Support: The first step is to open your Heart. Have you located > your Heart?> > > Customer: Yes, but there are several other programs running now. Is > it okay to install Love while they are running? > > Tech Support: What programs are running ?> > > Customer: Let's see, I have Past Hurt, Low Self-Esteem, Grudge, and > Resentment running right now.> > > Tech Support: No problem, Love will gradually erase Past Hurt from > your current operating system. It may remain in your permanent > memory, but it will no longer disrupt other programs. Love will > eventually override Low Self-Esteem with a module of its own called > High Self-Esteem. However, you have to completely turn off Grudge and > Resentment. Those programs prevent Love from being properly installed. > Can you turn those off ?> > > Customer: I don't know how to turn them off. Can you tell me how?> > > Tech Support: With pleasure. Go to your start menu and invoke > Forgiveness. Do this as many times as necessary until Grudge and > Resentment have been completely erased. > > Customer: Okay, done! Love has started installing itself. Is that > normal?> > > Tech Support: Yes, but remember that you have only the base program. > You need to begin connecting to other Hearts in order to get the > upgrades. > > Customer: Oops! I have an error message already. It says, "Error - > Program not run on external components ." What should I do? > > > Tech Support: Don't worry. It means that the Love program is set up > to run on Internal Hearts, but has not yet been run on your Heart. In > non-technical terms, it simply means you have to Love yourself before > you can Love others. > > Customer: So, what should I do?> > > Tech Support: Pull down Self-Acceptance; then click on the following > files: Forgive-Self; Realize Your Worth; and Acknowledge your > Limitations. > > Customer: Okay, done. > > Tech Support: Now, copy them to the "My Heart" directory. The system > will overwrite any conflicting files and begin patching faulty > programming. Also, you need to delete Verbose Self-Criticism from > all directories and empty your Recycle Bin to make sure it is > completely gone and never comes back.> > > Customer: Got it. Hey! My heart is filling up with new files. Smile > is playing on my monitor and Peace and Contentment are copying > themselves all over My Heart. Is this normal?> > > Tech Support: Sometimes. For others it takes awhile, but eventually > everything gets it at the proper time. So Love is installed and > running. One more thing before we hang up. Love is Free ware. Be sure > to give it and its various modules to everyone you meet. They will in > turn share it with others and return some cool modules back to you. > > > Customer: Thank you > > > Please send this to every one you know. If you delete, it's okay; > love is not based on e-mails. 38481 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/18/04 11:26:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > One thing that occurred to me is that a dream has a narrative quality, > like a very short story with lots of free association and not much > peripheral detail. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I think that waking experience has a narrative quality as well - rather like a soap opera, with some ups, lots of downs, and a consistently bad ending! ;-)) But yes, the dream is more like a short story, and the narrative is broken up in jumpy ways, and there is much fuzziness around the edges. -------------------------------------------------- In that sense it is similar to discursive thinking.> The main difference > between a story and a dream, though, is the strong > sense of being there. I wonder if that is why an arahant doesn't > dream--no sense of being. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: A dream does, indeed, have much in common with discursive thought. Also, while I do not quite think it correct to say that a dream is a concept, I do think it is rather *like* a concept in the specific sense that it is a sankharic construction to a greater extent than are the elements of five-sense-door waking consciousness. In this regard, perhaps an arahant doesn't dream because s/he no longer creates new kamma, and dreaming is a kind of kammic construction. And yes, there is the sense of "being there" in a dream, which means that the stream of dream consciousness shares much of the sense of reality as does the stream of waking consciousness, probably because the mind-door objects in a dream are much the same as in waking experience, and the conceptual overlay is much the same also. ----------------------------------- > Larry > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38482 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:36pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Questions i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling experience an object? ii There is a great variety of feelings, but all feelings have something in common. What is the characteristic they have in common? iii Feeling accompanies every citta. Can any kind of feeling accompany all cittas? iv Can everybody know the reality of pleasant feeling or of unpleasant feeling? v Why is body-consciousness (kåya-viññåùa) never accompanied by indifferent feeling? vi Which jåti is painful bodily feeling? vii Which jåti is unhappy feeling (domanassa)? viii When an unpleasant tangible object impinges on the body-sense, can kusala cittas accompanied by somanassa arise which cognize that unpleasant object? ***** [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) Finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 38483 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:hindrances Venerable Bhante, op 17-11-2004 21:45 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op bhantevimalaramsi@j...: (snipped) > when a meditator sees a hindrance arise, for example, and they let it go, > relax the tightness or tension caused by that hindrance and come back to > the object of meditation .. N: Thank you, Bhante for explaining how you see jhana. May the meditators develop their own understanding and know exactly when a hindrance arises, even sloth and torpor and doubt. May they know precisely when there is kusala citta with calm and when akusala citta! I wish them well! With all good wishes and respect, Nina. 38484 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > the D.O am I? .... S: No 'I' in D.O.;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 38485 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Eric, --- ericlonline wrote: > S> Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit > grasping here? > > I ..... S: And what is this 'I'? ..... > Only then can the conceit I AM dissolve as it will be seen > that it is superflous. .... S: You mean 'I' will quit grasping and then 'I AM' will dissolve? Will 'I' dissolve 'I AM' too?:-/ Metta, Sarah ======= 38486 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Dear Htoo & All, Thanks for your interest in the thread. --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Feeling is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Feeling is > conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. > Feeling which arises, falls away immediately, it does not stay. > Feeling is a khandha , it is one among the five khandhas, namely, > vedanåkkhandha(1). > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Htoo: > > Sankhara dhamma and sankhara khandha are frequently go into > entanglement. Could you or Nina please explain on that? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ .... Very briefly: 1) sankhara dhamma refers to any or all conditioned dhammas, i.e namas and rupas. The only reality which is not a sankhara dhamma is of course nibbana. 2) sankhara khandha refers to the 50 cetasikas (mental factors)which are not included in the other khandhas. Vedana (feeling) and sanna (perception) both have their own khandha. So here, vedana is not included in sankhara khandha. Thx for raising it Htoo. As you say, there are many confusions in this area. Please explain in more detail if you would care to and any further questions are welcome too. We've just finished the chapter on vedana - 26 installments!! I hope you'll help with the questions as you did so beautifully for phassa. Metta, Sarah ====== 38487 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Larry, op 18-11-2004 00:39 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I am currently understanding that "lobha" encompasses both "like" > and "want". Is this correct? N: There are many shades and degrees of lobha, and it does not matter how we name them. L: These are such different phenomena that > it makes sense to me that "like" is usually accompanied by pleasant > feeling and "want" is usually accompanied by neutral feeling. N: Lobha can be accompanied by these two feelings, no matter you call it like or want. L: (snip)...But the taste itself does not actually taste good; it tastes > sweet and this taste is accompanied by neutral feeling. N: Taste or flavour is rupa, it does not know whether it is pleasant or not. It is important to know this. A rupa cannot be accompanied by feeling, only citta and cetasikas can. Feeling is a cetasika. L:What I want > is the pleasant feeling of like. N: right, we are attached to pleasant feeling. L: Sometimes desire is accompanied by unpleasant feeling bodily > sensation. Perhaps one way to make sense out of this is that this > bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. N: Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling. Only body-consciousness, the experience of tangible object can. It cannot be produced by rupa, it is produced by kamma. But perhaps you mean: conditioned by. It experiences tangible object only. You say: bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. Sensation, it feels, experiences, thus it is not rupa. L: If it holds true > that this kind of rupa is produced by a root consciousness with a > corresponding feeling then dislike (dosa) produces a rupa experienced > as unpleasant bodily sensation, N: See above. L: "like" produces a rupa experienced as > pleasant feeling bodily sensation, N: True, like is nama and it can condition rupa, but again, we have to distinguish nama from rupa. (snip) L: I would say the dislike most likely has "not > possessing" or "not sensing what one wants or likes" as object but > there could also be dislike of "want" in a general sense. N: True, when things are not as we would like to be there is a condiiton for aversion or dislike. L: This seems to suggest that bodily unpleasant tension is usually > produced by dislike or hatred (dosa). Dosa tends to be self > reinforcing because dislike dislikes the unpleasant feeling of > dislike. N: True, aversion dislikes the unpleasant feeling. L: And furthermore the experience of desire _itself_ is > actually rather subtle. What do you think? N: There are different degrees. The coarse degree is easier to recognize, but clinging to self is harder to know. We are so used to it, from birth on. Nina. 38488 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > I'm going to try to close this thread, so my comments will be very > brief … S: It’s been a very long thread and at times a bit of a roller-coaster one, but I’ve enjoyed it and found it helpful in many ways. Thank you for persevering. As we’re looking at closure, I’ll try to sum up the remaining points of agreement/disagreement here: 1. We both agree the ti-lakkhana are characteristics of realities. You think there can be awareness of Suffering (aka 1st Noble Truth) without any prior understanding of namas and rupas. I think that without a clear understanding of the latter and furthermore of the characteristics of the arising and falling away of the latter, the inherent nature of dukkha cannot be penetrated. There cannot be awareness of dukkha *apart from* the reality which is known, just as there cannot be awareness of the nama quality, rupa quality or impermanence *apart from* that reality. 2. We both agree that namas *and* rupas are dukkha. You say the latter are dukkha because they are unsatisfactory as objects which is true. I would further say they are inherently unsatisfactory because they are impermanent. 3. We both agree that Sammaditthi of the fivefold or eightfold path and as described in the Sammaditthi Sutta refers exclusively to panna which only takes realities as objects. In other words, it refers to moments of satipatthana (mundane sammaditthi) and lokuttara cittas (supramundane sammaditthi). Furthermore, we both agree that thinking about concepts of realities or any kind of conceptual knowledge is not the development of satipatthana or patipatti (practice) and should not be confused with the latter. Furthermore, we both agree that conceptual knowledge may not lead to the latter. 4. Where we differ here is that you do not accept there can be ‘conceptual right view’ which is an essential precursor to the development of satipatthana. You either do not accept that this conceptual right view is pariyatti or you do not accept that pariyatti precedes patipatti. You believe that only when there have been insights, including vipassana nanas, can there be any wise conceptual consideration or reflection. You do not accept that panna or sammaditthi can refer to reflections on truths or realities as taught by the Buddha if they have not been directly realized. You consider all such reflection to be a kind of speculation which is always wrong, regardless of whether the words are correct or the cittas are wholesome. Clearly my understanding is quite different here. 5. You believe that those from other backgrounds who have never heard a word about realities or the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha can have direct insights and realize at least some of the vipassana nanas in this life, even if they cannot become enlightened. I disagree. 6. You believe that one can have more of an idea of someone’s real understanding by observing their behaviour and actions over a long period and ignoring what they say or what theory they have. I disagree. I think it is primarily by their expression that we learn about their views. One person may have temper outbursts but a good understanding or realities. Another person may be very quiet and calm but have strong wrong views about self and cling a lot to having a certain show of personality, or not really be tested in this life. *** Finally, just a few more words on why I see this thread as being of importance. 1. If we don’t think we need to hear, consider and reflect a lot on the teachings and have an idea that insights will arise regardless, it will be a condition not to hear, consider and reflect. Even ariyans needed to listen and reflect further. 2. If we judge by the behaviour of others or oneself, we will be lost again in a ‘situation’ of how we think insight should manifest, rather than developing detachment from any reality regardless. 3. There is the likelihood that one will take apparent insights in others or oneself for being vipassana nanas when in fact they may well just be thinking about an idea of suffering, an idea of impermanence and so on. We have to consider and reflect a lot to appreciate how much ignorance there really is and how very little is known. 4. Only at the fourth stage of insight or vipassana nana is the impermanence of realities clearly understood. Only then can dukkha really be known. Before this, there has to be a clear understanding of the distinction between namas and rupas, a clear direct knowledge of the conditioned nature of these dhammas and a real understanding of khandhas. If we really think we understand the deep meaning of dukkha now, it’s likely to be a real hindrance to the development of the path. *** Thank you again, Dan, for the stimulating discussion. You’re most welcome to take issue with any of these concluding comments, but I’ll leave anything further to others on the sidelines at this point as I know you’ve heard more than enough from me. Thank you again for your patience. You’re a good friend in Dhamma. Metta, Sarah ======= 38489 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Antony, I'm not sure if anyone answered your question here, so I'll just say a few words to try and bring it to life again;-) --- Antony Woods wrote: > I found this very interesting quote by the renowned meditation master > and > scholar Mahasi Sayadaw about how we deserve metta for ourselves. .... S: If you look in U.P. under 'metta', you'll see there have been many discussions on this point. You can follow any threads at the end of the posts there: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts We think of ourselves and have attachment for ourselves for so much of the day anyway. If we have an idea of 'deserving more metta for ourselves' or of directing metta in this way, we will simply be accumulating even more attachment to this precious me. If we practice enough, we may have attachment to self all day and all night!! Instead, metta is the reducing of attachment for oneself by considering the needs of others and having the welfare of others in mind. ..... >My only > > doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The critical > Pali > phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who > *deserves* > more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be found) .... S: How about 'a person who is dearer than oneself.....(cannot be found)? ..... > > It doesn't seem consistent with the translation of the rest of the > passage. > > It is different saying that a person loves himself the most (the > standard > translation from the Mallika Sutta) and so if he loves himself he > wouldn't > harm another, and saying that he *deserves* his love and affection the > most > (I usually believe that I don't deserve to be happy which is a major > obstacle to meditation) .... S: I agree with your reading of the comments and the Mallika Sutta (the commentary notes to it are also in one of those U.P. posts). Whilst we are concerned about what we deserve, there cannot be any metta. the brahma viharas are for other beings. At the same time, when you think you 'don't deserve to be happy', we can see again that this is still attachment to self - finding oneself so important that deserves or doesn't deserve and so on. Whilst there is preoccupation with 'me' in these ways, there won'd be any metta, compassion, sympathetic joy or equanimity. In terms of the development of sati however, even such clinging to self can be known for what it is - just another conditioned dhamma. That's it! > ======= > "The Enlightened One has made an exposition by preaching a Verse as > quoted > below which indicates that a person loves his own self the most. > > Sabba disa anuparigamma' cetasa nevalihaga piyatara' mattana kvaci. Evam > > piyo puthu atta pareysam, tasama na him se paramattakamo. <...> > Patrick Kearney challenges this translation in the following link and > concludes saying "For the Buddha, letting go of the self *is* letting go > of > unworthiness and self-hatred" > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/162 > What do you think? .... Thx for the pali walk-through too - just snipped for space. Pls give anytime. I'm not sure that I understand the sentence above. Does it mean giving up attachment to the self? Who has no attachment to the self? Certainly the sotapanna still does. But I agree that it is because of such attachment that there are also the negative thoughts and feelings too. James wrote a good letter to the StarKids on this topic. Pls ask him or myself if you didn't see it - Patsy and Dominique in the Pizza Parlour. Please let me know your comments here, Antony. I'd be glad to continue the thread. Metta, Sarah p.s I also read with interest your comments on visible objects in post #37715 while we were away. I think that noting and being aware of visible object is a little different. Also, no need to select or be concerned about them having 'future potential'. This is just thinking about them. Again, I'm happy to share thoughts further on this. ====== 38490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] dreams Hi Larry, In a message dated 11/18/04 7:49:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Thanks for explaining this, very clear. Also the viewing of dreams > with adverting consciousness makes sense. I was wondering, did the > commentary explicitly classify the dream image as a concept? N: Dream image is a concept. Your eyes are not open and you do not see visible object, but it seems like you are seeing. It is like thinking or imagining. The co says: he sees a dream. The Co says that it is through the mind-door that the image is experienced, not through the sense-door. L: Is a > memory a concept? At this point I am understanding concept simply > as 'word', made up of name and meaning. But that gives mental images > an uncertain status. N: There are two kinds of concepts: an idea or image, and a name or term. A name can denote what is real or what is unreal. Remember Htoo¹s recent series on concepts. L: Also I don't know how to classify nimitta (sign) > unless it is as a manifestation of sa~n~naa (perception). N: Nimitta is image, or sign. It is a concept you can think of. It seems you see people, but in reality visible object is seen and falls away immediately. The image of a person is remembered and it seems to last. Yes, saññaa remembers images, meanings. I followed yours and Howard¹s discussions, but I had to go to the yahoo web which is not easy for me, expanding messages. My computer or provider does not pass on any mail, but I can send mail. We can dream with kusala cittas or akusala cittas, but we cannot say that kamma produces dreaming. Dreaming is like thinking, it is not vipaka. Arahats do not dream because they have eradicated all defilements. Nina. 38491 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/19/04 1:39:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Questions > > i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > experience an object? > ======================== This is interesting. In this question we having feeling acting as a subject, and it is experiencing an object This is not the way people usually speak, and it is also not the way things seem to be. The way things seem to be is that a feeling, whether pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality, is always a mental event arising from sense-door contact with an object, typically experienced, but not itself a thing which experiences. When we say that the warmth of a tub entered after a hard day of work feels pleasant, what we mean is that mind experiences pleasantness as a direct result of the bodily sensation of warmth. Are you folks saying that when it seems that a pleasant feeling occurs, what is actually happening is that a knowing mental function called "pleasant feeling" occurs, and that function is a type of elementary, emotive knowing of an object? That is, a pleasant feeling is not something known, but something that knows, albeit in a particular way? We don't ever ask what someone's feeling is doing. We certainly never ask what someone's pleasant feeling is experiencing!! We may ask someone, however, how they feel - that is, whether they are experiencing pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality. It seems to me, and to most people, I believe, that to feel is simply the ability to experience feeling, where feeling is a mind-door object, much as to taste is simply the ability to experience flavor, a tongue-door object. So, what I am saying is that feelings are usually seen as certain kinds of experienced objects rather than as certain modes of experiencing. But Abhidhamma apparently sees feelings as modes of knowing. So, when I say "Oh, what a pleasant taste" upon eating ice cream, while it seems to me that the taste has the property of being pleasant or that upon eating the ice cream, pleasantness becomes an object of experience, Abhidhamma says instead that the ice-cream taste is experienced merely cognitively by the function of vi~n~nana and is simultaneously known by the emotive function of pleasant taste. Is that correct? With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38492 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > > > Hi All (especially Sarah / Jon); > > Great news! All of the old messages from DSG discussions have been > put into files which can be accessed at: > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ .... Thanks so much for reporting back and I'm delighted to hear you've successfully downloaded onto your hard-drive. I'd like to thank you for putting us on the right track and for your keen interest in the project. I'd like to thank Kom for back-up support here and particularly to really thank JON & CONNIE who have both worked extremely hard and diligently to manually copy the entire archives, starting again at the beginning (THANKS CONNIE!!!), and get it all in order, the website set up and the files organised etc (THANKS JON!!!!). (Phil, loved your joke in yr thank you speech.....btw. I'll stop here;-). Rob, thanks for mentioning other glitches - I know Jon's still working on them. He's also experimented with the size, knowing how many friends rely on dial-up, but as DSG is so active, it's hard to keep up if we use smaller files as we were doing initially. I think I'll follow your example and (with help) download and look for google desk search. It has been (and continues to be) a very large project. I'm prticularly thrilled to know that the entire archives are safe and accessible. There are accounts of lists being wiped out and we've had this experience with the escribe back-up. We now have good back-up arrangements, I think. Like you say, the search potential is now almost solved, at least for those with good systems like yourself. Howard can look for 'spiral' anytime;-). Meanwhile, we're now onto our next big project of editing and making recordings of discussions with A.Sujin available.....so when friends like Herman wonder what we talk about when we have anytime together, apart from reading posts, the answer is 'archives, recordings, computer glitches and frustrations....' - that's about it!! Metta, Sarah ===== 38493 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Hello Bhante Vimalararamsi Thank you! Very interesting. I was just going to go get to that other thread we were discussing in, but let me have a look at this from a beginner's Abhidhamma perspective. > > Customer: Well, after much consideration, I've decided to install > > Love. Can you guide me though the process? Phil: I think this is the question all newcomers to Buddhism ask, along with "I want to install peace." And there are all sorts of teachers offering ways to do this. I am beginning to see the way to love is to gradually eradicate the obstacles to love, the defilements that keep it from arising. I'm not keen on the notion of generating metta these days, though my understanding is just beginning to develop and I may go back to metta meditation. > > Tech Support: Yes, I can help you. Are you ready to proceed?> > > > > Customer: Well, I'm not very technical, but I think I'm ready. What > > do I do first?> > > > > Tech Support: The first step is to open your Heart. Have you located > > your Heart?> Phil: To get to it, you have to go through my stomach! Haha. > > Customer: Yes, but there are several other programs running now. Is > > it okay to install Love while they are running? > > > > Tech Support: What programs are running ?> > > > > Customer: Let's see, I have Past Hurt, Low Self-Esteem, Grudge, and > > Resentment running right now.> Phil: Very interesting. Very Abhidhamma. All these cittas are rising and falling, moment by moment. They are programmed in a sense by conditions. They will run whether we want them to or not - but we can develop right understanding that sees clearly just what it running, and those moments of right understanding will condition more of the same until......the computer goes PING! > > Tech Support: No problem, Love will gradually erase Past Hurt from > > your current operating system. Phil: This is the standard teaching of metta. Today I found this, from Anguttara Nikaya VI 13. "When metta has been developed, pursued, handed the reins, there is no way ill-will would leap up." Frankly, I think this is very questionable. I think panna is developed, and eradicates defilements and obstacles to love, and then there is no way ill-will would leap up because ill will is the defilement that has been eradicated by wisdom, not by love. Love doesn't do it. I honestly don't believe that sitting and generating metta does anything except make the meditator feel better, more calm. It is a panacea, a painkiller. It is not a penetrator or eradicator of defilements. In my opinion. You will hear me (read me) developing this idea a lot in the weeks/months/years to come. I am very, very interested in Brahma-Viharas. >> It may remain in your permanent > > memory, but it will no longer disrupt other programs. Phil: It (past hurt) *will* remain in your permanent memory, and it *will* disrupt other programs on occasion Who is this irresponsible service technician! It is not so simple to eradicate defilements. >> Love will > > eventually override Low Self-Esteem with a module of its own called > > High Self-Esteem. However, you have to completely turn off Grudge and > > Resentment. Those programs prevent Love from being properly installed. > > Can you turn those off ?> Phil: No! And if the service technician says yes, I am going to phone the better bussiness bureau and complain! > > > > Customer: I don't know how to turn them off. Can you tell me how?> > > > > Tech Support: With pleasure. Go to your start menu and invoke > > Forgiveness. Do this as many times as necessary until Grudge and > > Resentment have been completely erased. Phil: I suppose forgiveness would be karuna. It can't be selected from a menu. It arises, as do all kusala cittas, when many conditions are fulfilled. It is a rare but powerful occurence when it arises. Sitting at home and deciding to forgive someone is not true forgiveness. We are just trying to dodge the dosa we are feeling in our anger. We would be best to remember that the anger is nama, it will fall away duie to conditions, just as it arose due to conditions. There is no need to dodge it. Also no reason to hold on to it, of course. If we have right understanding, even at an intellectual level, of rupa and nama, we will naturally begin to let go of anger much more easily. I speak from experience. I used to hold on to grudges for days. I would stew on a perceived injustice right through the day. Now it is so easy to let things go. Thanks to Abhidhamma. > > Customer: Okay, done! Love has started installing itself. Is that > > normal?> > > > > Tech Support: Yes, but remember that you have only the base program. > > You need to begin connecting to other Hearts in order to get the > > upgrades. Phil: I like this part! Yes, it's out in the world in interaction with others that Brahma-Viharas arise and fall in the most meaningful way. WHen I used to do metta meditation, I would set-up the base program. That is a good metaphor for what I used to do. Contemplate on sources of aversion, generate metta for them. And sure enough, when I went out in the world, I would find that I felt more loving-kindness for them. The morning metta work conditioned that. *But* I came to realize that what was really happening was that I was trying to paint the world with metta to make it more pleasant. I will be posting more about this in the months to come. I'm not sure that what I was doing was not good Dhamma. It may have been. But it wasn't *really* metta. But I'm not sure about that either. Real metta was what happened one day when I was opening my socks drawer and suddenly felt great friendliness towards George Bush and a desire, a true desire, for world peace. Someday that true aspiration for world peace will arise in a more lasting way in me because there will be fewer obstacles. That is what that experience has told me so far. But as I said, I will still be thinking about it. > > > > Customer: Oops! I have an error message already. It says, "Error - > > Program not run on external components ." What should I do? > > > > > > Tech Support: Don't worry. It means that the Love program is set up > > to run on Internal Hearts, but has not yet been run on your Heart. In > > non-technical terms, it simply means you have to Love yourself before > > you can Love others. Ph: This is also the standard teaching of Metta. I think it is healthy. I don't believe in beating myself up in order to reach the truth. It's all middle way. But again, with an understanding of rupa and nama we come to see that in the absolute sense there is no *me* and no *other* The khandas come to be seen as a dissolution (I prefer that to seeing them as a disease, or other similes that are used) Sense of *me* dissolves, in a moment - even intellectualy this can be achieved in a fairly helpful way - and rather than loving oneself there is equanimity, detachment. And then there is the person again. The people. But no longer the strong self-identity that makes us judge people and struggle with people and, yes, love people. > > Customer: So, what should I do?> > > > > Tech Support: Pull down Self-Acceptance; then click on the following > > files: Forgive-Self; Realize Your Worth; and Acknowledge your > > Limitations. > > > > Customer: Okay, done. > > > > Tech Support: Now, copy them to the "My Heart" directory. The system > > will overwrite any conflicting files and begin patching faulty > > programming. Also, you need to delete Verbose Self-Criticism from > > all directories and empty your Recycle Bin to make sure it is > > completely gone and never comes back.> > > > > Customer: Got it. Hey! My heart is filling up with new files. Smile > > is playing on my monitor and Peace and Contentment are copying > > themselves all over My Heart. Is this normal?> > > > > Tech Support: Sometimes. For others it takes awhile, but eventually > > everything gets it at the proper time. So Love is installed and > > running. One more thing before we hang up. Love is Free ware. Be sure > > to give it and its various modules to everyone you meet. They will in > > turn share it with others and return some cool modules back to you. > > Phil: Love rules, no doubt about it. Whether it is generated by intention, or arises due to conditions, love rules. The only reason I am so picky about the way I understand metta is because I know how important it is, and because I value it so. So thanks for sending this along, Bhante! You are certainly a warm-hearted and loving person. I can feel that. And am very grateful to be able to correspond with you, albeit it in an impudent way! Metta, Phil p.s I was going to reply to that other thread (two views of anatta) but have run out of time. Please forgive me. I'm feeling very pressed for time these days. Conditions are arising in a way that have me interested in my Japanese study and a novel I'm trying to write again. Apologies to all in the Evil Thoughts thread if I can't get back for a few days. I know there is no need to apologize, but I am Canadian. 38494 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Sarah: 1) sankhara dhamma refers to any or all conditioned dhammas, i.e namas and rupas. The only reality which is not a sankhara dhamma is of course nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So thing which is not a reality is not sankhara dhamma and equally it is not non-sankhara dhamma. :-) ???Pannatti ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 2) sankhara khandha refers to the 50 cetasikas (mental factors)which are not included in the other khandhas. Vedana (feeling) and sanna (perception) both have their own khandha. So here, vedana is not included in sankhara khandha. Thx for raising it Htoo. As you say, there are many confusions in this area. Please explain in more detail if you would care to and any further questions are welcome too. We've just finished the chapter on vedana - 26 installments!! I hope you'll help with the questions as you did so beautifully for phassa. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are clear. I feel that 'sankhara dhamma' is dhamma. Here 'sankhara' becomes an adjective which modifies the word 'dhamma'. Sometimes short forms are used. That is .. Sankhara dhamma = Sankhara For example.. Sabbe sankhara aniccaa .. Sabbe sankhara dukkhaa Here the word 'dhamma' is omitted. Sankharakkhandha is khandha. It is sankhara khandha. So it is a khandha. Again 'sankhara' becomes a modifier. But this is never used in short form like.. Sankhara khandha = Sankhara The main problem is usage of Pali language and its translation. When we say sankhara it means 'sankhara dhamma' that is 'cittas, cetasikas, rupas'. When we say sankhara, it is not just sankharakkhandha which are 50 of 52 cetasikas. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I am wondering what Nina would think in this matter. What do you think? 38495 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:50am Subject: Dependent Origination and its 12 links Do they appear when you meditate with the eyes open or closed? How do the lights dissappear?, do they dissappear when any thought comes to focus? If you "lost" the lights because a thought came, can you bring them back? How can you do that?, what does that mean? Do the same with the colours, and any other feeling or thought that arises. Pain in the legs is a very good teaching aid, I can say that by direct experience!!, just don't torture yourself! Greetings, Hugo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Hugo, I am waiting for the answer. I am not going into further dark. There are 12 links of DO. Now I see the light. Where exactly is the DO? With Metta, Htoo Naing 38496 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > > the D.O am I? > .... > S: No 'I' in D.O.;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 38497 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" ========================= Forgive me, but I don't understand your question, Htoo. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, Sarah has answered my question satisfactorily. I was thinking the difference between you and Sarah. When one was confused, another has already answered the question. This may be because of 'sanna' and 'pannatti'. :-) You do know Bhara Sutta. There is a bulk. There is the bulk carrier. There is the way to throw away the bulk. Who carries 'the bulk'? The answer is no one is carrying. This implies the same principle. I was just inviting comments from D.O experts. Sarah said there is no 'I' in D.O. Yes. This is very true. But I was trying to indirectly see D.O. :-) Direct seeing of D.O is the matter of Ariyas. :-) I will be looking forward to hearing from you. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38498 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:08am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I must regretfully decline this request. Because I am not that educated in the Pali language. If you are really interested in this project you could ask Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Bodhi monastery in New Jersey. If he would be willing to take the time and effort I would be very happy to add what little I know. Sorry. Being in a very remote area of the country I don't have the access to the many books I would need to do this project. I have lots of problems even getting the Pali-English dictionaries. I have friends in Malaysia who have promised to get me as many Pali-English dictionaries as possible but I haven't received any yet. So it goes. I wish I could do this project for you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Venerable Sir, Thanks for your reply. I do know this project is hard. May I have the contact details of Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi of Bodhi Monastry in New Jersey? With much respect, Htoo Naing 38499 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:46am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Venerable Sir, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Being in a very remote area of the country I don't have the access to the > many books I would need to do this project. I have lots of problems even > getting the Pali-English dictionaries. I have two Pali-English dictionaries on my PC (both in .PDF format, suitable for searching). The small one is by Nyanatiloka (402 pages - 1.6 Meg) and the large one is the PTS Pali-Text dictionary (about 1778 pages - 12.4 Meg). If you would please send me an email to rob.moult @ jci.com Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Nina wrote: Dear Larry and Htoo, op 17-11-2004 00:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: what are dreams? N: Seeing or hearing in a dream seem to be very vivid and real, but we know that they are only cittas thinking of concepts through the mind-door. ..snip..snip..but more often with akusala cittas, cittas with attachment, with fear and anxiety. What we think of during the day is remembered in a dream. As we read, ..snip..snip..we see people and things whereas in reality only visible object can be seen. We think of concepts through the mind-door, we remember what we have experienced before. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Larry, Howard and All, Once I had discussed on dreams extensively with Amara. Whether reality or not 'human brain is a miracle'. Even 'The Brain of The Buddha had to take rest'. Neurophysiology says human beings is in the sleep-awake cycle. When we sleep there are two types of sleeping. One is dreaming state and another is dreamless state. In scientific term, they are called REM and NREM sleep. In REM sleep that is Rapid-Eyeball-Movement sleep, our eye balls are roving from side to side. This can be observed in any of sleeping people. In REM, there is dreaming. When NREM comes that is Non-Rapid-Eyeball-Movement sleep, eyeballs stop to move and the people concerned sleep very deeply. This is dreamless state. In normal people, these 2 sleeps alternate. When this rythm is disturbed, there will be physical as well as mental problem. When we are dreaming, actually all of our 5 sense doors are closed. So what we see, hear, smell, taste, touch in our dream are not pancavinnana cittas. When there is no pancavinnana cittas, there is no pancadvara vithi vara. So all dreams are manodvara vithi series only. Manodvara vithi is like the following letters. BBBBBBBBBMJJJJJJJTTBBBBBBB ( vibhutarammana or clear object ) BBBBBBBBBMJJJJJJJBBBBBBBBB ( avibhutarammana or less clear object ) B represents bhavanga citta, J for javana citta, T for tadarammana cittas which are one of 3 santirana cittas or one of 8 mahavipaka cittas. Manodvara vithi has only 3 kinds of vithi citta. They are manodvaravajjana, javana, and tadarammana. When there is no tadarammana there will only be manodvarvajjana and javana. Manodvaravajjana is only one. But javana function of citta is performed by 55 cittas. Again sleeping cannot be magga and phala. So 47 left. No sleeping man is in jhana. So 5 rupakusala cittas, 5 rupakiriya cittas, 4 arupakusala cittas, and 4 arupakiriya cittas do not arise in sleep. So there left 29 cittas. These 29 cittas are called kamavacara javana cittas. They are 12 akusala cittas, 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas and 1 hasituppada citta ( 12 + 8 + 8 + 1 = 29 cittas ). If these dreaming javana cittas are not kiriya cittas, then all dreams that are not on kiriya cittas produce kamma. But this kamma is weak and it does not give rise to patisandhi cittas but it can give rise to pavatti cittas or in the course of life events like 7 ahetuka akusala vipakacittas, 8 ahetuka kusala vipakacittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas. Human dreams do not give rise to rupavipaka or arupavipaka cittas as dream are not jhana cittas. Do arahats dream? When a dream comes it hit BBBBB series. And BBBBBB stop after a few steps say about 2 Bhavanga cittas. Then Manodvaravajjana SEES the dream and Javana cittas follow. As it is manodvara vithi, the dream which is an object is dhammarammana. Dream is not nibbana. Dream is not 5 pasada rupas. Dream is not 16 sukhuma rupas. Dream is not 89 cittas. Dream is not 52 cetasikas. Dream is 'pannatti'. Does pannatti arises? No. Never arise. So why do dreams come to exist? Human brain is a miracle. There are many relay centres through the brain. Nearly 99 percent of cells are supportive cells. Nerve cells are linked with each other. Memory in science is also a miracle. When a nerve cell knows the message, it transmits the message to nearby nerve cells. There is a storehouse for memory in the brain. When these areas are destroyed by blockage of blood supply or bleeding, then memories stored in those cells are all lost permanently and unrescueable. From a sense organ to a nerve cell and then there are many pathways of nerve cells to the memory storehouse. Some pathways are very very short, some short, some medium and some long and some very very long. When the messages are carrying through the long pathways, and there is no other new message, there is no disturbances and memory will set in the storehouse and store them as remote memory and they last long. When a message is being carried, if another message come in and further messages come in some messages do not go up to the storehouse area and they are lost in the way. When sleeping, our brain is in activity like our heart. Brain is active all the time even when we take rest or sleep or deeply sleeping. When there is no brain acivity, then it is said to be brain death. When we sleep, nerve cells are functioning. Some long pathways are still going to their destination memory storehouse. These pathways are sometimes disturbed by biochemical changes in the body which again is related to food that we eat, our activities when we are awake, our mental state when we are awake. When these changes occur, then there are some distortion of the pictures that are being carried through different pathways and these distorted picture ( movies) are informed to sensory perception areas and deep memory areas. That is why some dreams are remembered for a few seconds as soon as we wake up, and some dreams last for 5 or 10 minutes and some dreams last even for years. I still remember some dreams 30 years ago. When we sleep, messages are flowing through different nerve cells. Some messages are reported to specific areas for understanding. All these scientific data when they are looked into, all are concepts or pannatti. Now let us go back to Abhidhamma and realities. BBBBBB once this flow is stopped and manodvaravajjana citta arises and then this citta is followed by akusala or kusala javana cittas. As these are not free of defilements, again basing on the first object that manodvaravajjana citta sees, new and new vithi vara arise as dreams. But in case of arahats, BBBBBBB even when stopped, manodvaravajjana arises and followed by mahakiriya cittas. It is hard to arise hasituppada citta in dream. In this case as there is no defilement there is not many continuation of vithi vara and then back to BBBBBB. So there seems not to be any dreams at all. All dream states are related to our clinging, craving, day time activities, likeness and dislikeness, our food, our environment or utu and our mentality. Dreams are not vipaka as can be seen in manodvara vithi vara. BBBBBBB all vipaka BBBBB M J J J J J J J T T BBB No dream is vipaka cittas. So dreams are not affected by kamma. But dreams are affected by citta, utu, ahara. When there is a real object outside like a fire alarm, sleeping person's ear is perceiving that sound. But as he is sleeping, he is not at sotavinnana citta. But this real object hit frequently so that bhavanga cittas have to release their past object and manodvaravajjana citta arise and take the sound indirectly. This means not through sotavinnana citta. From the ears to the brain many messages regaring fire alarming sound are being carried. But as he is sleeping and not awake this is in away distorted and the person is dreaming as if he hears some similar sound in his ears when he is awake. But that dream has to stop when he becomes awake and realises that there is a real fire alarm. But the dream happens. This is effect from environment. Those who practise metta brahmavihara dream less. Even they dream, their dreams are pleasant one. This is because of citta affecting on the body and then dream. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Anyone who want to copy this message is permitted to do so. Acknowledgement is good to do. But not essential in taking this message. 38501 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:35am Subject: India 2004 photos Dear Friends, We've put just a few pix from the trip in a temporary file in the DSG album. As space is limited, we'll probably remove this album in a few days. Talking of photos, may I encourage any new (or old) members to add their photo in the member album? Bhante V, could someone help copy your photo? I know James could manage this, for example. Eric? Htoo?....anyone else? Metta, Sarah ======== 38502 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: bhavangacittas 2. Htoo:>But once I was attacked that manovinnana cittas are cittas that arise at mano or mind door. So all door-free cittas seem to be not manovinnana cittas and so they will not be mano-vinnana-dhatu. Could you please clarify me on these matters? --------------------------------------------------------------------- N: The person who denied this was wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You may smile if I say the person is not a man. But please continue to read these sentences but that person is a woman. You may immediately know who she is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: The santiira.nacitta that performs the function of investigating in the sense-door can also perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. A. Sujin said that this means that it is the same type of citta that performs the latter three functions as santiira.na-citta arising in a sense-door process: it is ahetuka, accompanied by the same types of cittas, but, she said that the Buddha did not introduce another name for the santiira.na-citta when it performs those three functions. I find it helpful to remember that mano-dhaatu performs functions in a sense-door process and mano-viññaa.na dhaatu performs functions in sense-door and mind-door processes and can also be door-freed and process freed. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Nina. I am clear on mano-dhatu and mano-vinnana-dhatu and panca-vinnana-dhatu. But regarding 'vinnana' there are panca-vinnana and mano-vinnana. So are mano-dhatus also mano-vinnana? With respect, Htoo Naing 38503 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 114 and Tiika Nina wrote: Note 45, taken from the Tiika: ' "occurring endlessly": this is, in fact,thus called "bhava.nga" (life-continuum), lit. "limb" (or "practice"--see Ch. II, par. 11) of becoming) because of its occurring as the state of an 'a.nga' ("limb" or "practice") of the rebirth-process becoming (uppatti-bhava)' (Pm. 478). ***** N: a.nga: limb, constituent part or quality. Bhava.nga: constituent part of becoming or life. It keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. There is no moment without citta, also in between the processes or in dreamless sleep when there is not the experience of an object impinging on one of the six doors. Vis. text: This is how the occurrence of those same [nineteen kinds of]consciousness should be understood as life-continuum. N: Just like the rebirth-consciousness, the bhavanga-citta can be of nineteen types. (see Vis. 113). ------------------------ Htoo: Dear Nina, these 19 cittas have to do the job of life continuum. In a being, to exist as a being he or she needs support. These supportive dhammas are called ahara dhamma. There are 4 ahara dhamma. 1 rupa ahara and 3 nama aharas. These 19 cittas are vinnana ahara. When a being lack support but there are still vinnana ahara, then he or she is still alive. Once I asked you about kamma. What I asked was kamma as ahara that is manosancetana ahara. That kamma-ahara is actually all past kamma. They are 29 cittas and 33 cetasikas. But in kamma paccaya there also is sahajata kamma paccaya. In that any cetana in any citta serves as sahajata kamma paccaya. What I asked was kamma-ahara which is manosancetana ahara. You said both paties were right. With respect, Htoo Naing 38504 From: Hugo Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and its 12 links On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:50:21 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > I am waiting for the answer. I am not going into further dark. I don't understand the above phrase. Do you mean that you don't want to investigate until somebody tells you "THE" Answer? I thought that Buddha said we need to practice to find the answer, and not to ask somebody for the answer as each one will tell us the answer from their own experience, also he didn't said that we need to go and read the answer somewhere. If I am wrong, somebody please correct me, as I am still a beginner. So, if somebody answers your question, I would recommend that you take it with a grain of salt and verify it for yourself so you can be convinced (again, it is not me, but Buddha who said that, sorry, I don't have the Sutta # but I think it is in the Kalamas Sutta) > There are 12 links of DO. Now I see the light. Where exactly is the > DO? This is a different question than the one you first posted. It is good that you keep changing the question, that helps you investigate things from different points of view, just watch out for wrong questions (as the Buddha warned us, again, I don't remember the Sutta #). Your original question: > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > the D.O am I? So, in the first question you ask "where am i?", and in the second question you ask "where is the D.O.?" Both questions involve a self (first: "I", second: "the D.O."), so answering them is not fitting according to what the Buddha taught. On the other hand, how can the D.O. be (seen, experienced, noted, discerned, realized)?, that is possible to answer. mmmm.....now..... thinking a little bit more..... Htoo, what is the real reason you are asking these questions? I have read some of your other e-mails, and I thought you were much, much more "literate" (If I can use that word) than me in terms of Buddhism, so I am kind of "shocked" that you have issues with D.O. at that level, so I think that maybe it is not that you want to learn, but you want to teach us something. If that's the case, go ahead I am all ears (well, technically speaking, I am all eyes, as it is reading). Also, knowing that you are a Buddhist, I can't imagine that you do ask these questions with any bad intentions (e.g. make fun of somebody, show off superiority, etc.), so I know there is a very good intention and probably a lot of wisdom in your questions. I am a beginner and not a wise man, so please explain a little simpler so I can understand what are you trying to teach. P.S. I do intend to read the Abhidamma, it is in my queue (very long now) of readings, I think I need to learn more basic stuff before, so in the meantime all my reference is the Suttas and commentaries and teachings from some modern monks like Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Mun, Thanissaro, Bodhi, Henepola Gunaratana, etc. Greetings, -- Hugo 38505 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Htoo, > > I really don't understand what you are talking about. Could you please > explain the question again? Sorry. > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Venerable Sir, When you reply in such a way in the busy list, how could I know what you are responding? May I humbly ask you to include some portion so that your message could help what part you are responding? With much respect, Htoo Naing 38506 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Dan D So are differentiating conceptual right view from mundane right view. Or do you mean they are the same :). If they are different, then it is true that conceptual right view cannot be path leading to insight. If they are the same, then conceptual right view is the path leading to insight Ken O --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > > than > > conventional right effort constitutes Right Effort. > > Nor does conceptual right view does lead to Right View any more > than > > conventional right effort leads to Right Effort.> > > > > k: I am wondering which sammadithi are you talking about, > > supramundane and mundane. > 38507 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and its 12 links Htoo:> I am waiting for the answer. I am not going into further dark. Hugo wrote: I don't understand the above phrase. Do you mean that you don't want to investigate until somebody tells you "THE" Answer? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see you have a good command in Dhamma as well as mental power. Yes. Basically I mean I am waiting somebody. That is why I changed the heading to 'Dependent Origination and its 12 links'. You may know that I am still learning. I just invited experts to invlove and discuss Dhamma so that all members can learn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: So, in the first question you ask "where am i?", and in the second question you ask "where is the D.O.?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I may also notice that I also used different question words. First I used 'when in D.O' and next I used 'where in D.O'. Where is the D.O is 'asking to explain D.O in realtion with cakkhu vinnana citta etc and so on.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: Both questions involve a self (first: "I", second: "the D.O."), so answering them is not fitting according to what the Buddha taught. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. But the flow is for discussion. That is Dhamma is dhamma and there is no self at all. But when we conventionally discuss, there has to be identity so that we are not lost on the way while we are discussing. I mean 'when an adopted child realises that his adopting father is not his blood-related father, he is still using Dad for his adopting father even though he has realised the man is not his father.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: On the other hand, how can the D.O. be (seen, experienced, noted, discerned, realized)?, that is possible to answer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hugo: mmmm.....now..... thinking a little bit more..... Htoo, what is the real reason you are asking these questions? I have read some of your other e-mails, and I thought you were much, much more "literate" (If I can use that word) than me in terms of Buddhism, so I am kind of "shocked" that you have issues with D.O. at that level, so I think that maybe it is not that you want to learn, but you want to teach us something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have already said above. I just invited. Instead of using 'teaching', I use 'I am discussing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: If that's the case, go ahead I am all ears (well, technically speaking, I am all eyes, as it is reading). Also, knowing that you are a Buddhist, I can't imagine that you do ask these questions with any bad intentions (e.g. make fun of somebody, show off superiority, etc.), so I know there is a very good intention and probably a lot of wisdom in your questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not do funny. Once I asked sincerely. But I did not get the answer. Instead I was criticized that I asked childish question. If you follow my emails 'Dhamma Thread' you will find that I tried to explain even 'ABC'. But when I asked ABC of D.O, I was not answered. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: I am a beginner and not a wise man, so please explain a little simpler so I can understand what are you trying to teach. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is explained above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: P.S. I do intend to read the Abhidamma, it is in my queue (very long now) of readings, I think I need to learn more basic stuff before, so in the meantime all my reference is the Suttas and commentaries and teachings from some modern monks like Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Mun, Thanissaro, Bodhi, Henepola Gunaratana, etc. Greetings, -- Hugo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think all are actually beginners as long as they have not seen nibbana. Nibbana is seen only by magga cittas and phala cittas. I hope discussions are beneficial for all. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38508 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Hi Phil dont be trap by evil thought because the more we dwell on it or the more we dragged the appearance on evil thoughts, they accumulates in the latency. Likewise for kusala thoughts :) So treat each thought (including kusala ones) especially evil ones as just not me, not I and not myself. To me this would let us see the world would as a simpler place to live in, the mind will naturally be peaceful :). As what I always say, practise is all around us and every moment, we should do it now and not have to wait and do it :). Can we stop senses from doing what they are conditioned to do, hence there so many avenues and chances for us to practise in our waking hours :), why wait :)? Anyway, enjoy it while we can, we never know when panna is popping out to help us. Do keep writing your interesting mails :). Cheers Ken O 38509 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Sarah Dear Sarah, Jon, Nina, Chris, Robert K, Mike and all How are you? Sarah wrote: "However I'm curious to know whether you really see a knowledge of Sanskrit and employment as an academic as being obstacles in anyway to developing an understanding of the teachings and whether you see a background in science and Pali expertise as really being essential pre-re?uisites. Obviously most of us would fail here on the latter criteria." I do not see a knowledge of Sanskrit and employment as an academic as being obstacles in any way to developing an understanding of the teachings. But, I do distinguish between a reader of Sanskrit and a Sanskritist. I read Sanskrit from time to time, but I am not a Sanskritist. A Sanskritist is usually one who thinks that they understand Pali by knowing Sanskrit alone, and one who interprets Pali terms as though they were Sanskrit words. Sanskritists are usually ideologically- motivated, too. As a result, they usually find Standard Pali Commentaries to be very unpalatable because the latter prevent them from interpreting the Buddha's teachings as they please. Sanskritists also think that they can increase their academic standing by criticizing and disparaging Aacariya Buddhaghosa, the Intellectual Giant, the Greatest Buddhist Commentator of all time both in terms of scope and depth. Who can forget that a Sanskritist (Stephen Hodge) butchered Nina's good translation of a passage of Anguttara commentary Pali on Pali list? About how employment as an academic being a handicap? When I mentioned Professor Kalupahana as a paid-academic in my post, I happened to remember Dr Peter Masefield's confession on Pali list a few years ago. I forgot his exact statement, but I remembered his saying to the effect that he, being a young academic, had to yield to the demands and requirements of the publisher (the source of his income and academic credentials). Universities in the western nations are highly commercialized institutions. Courses are designed to suit market forces. They may advertise themselves as centres of excellence, but they are not suitable environments for genuine Buddhist scholarship, let alone seeking truths in the Buddhsit sense. No university in Australia has a proper department of Buddhist Studies with a dedicated large-scale Pali Centre. I do not think that UK and USA are also any different in this regard. Now, to recap, I mentioned those things like Prof Kalupahana being a Sanskritist and a paid-academic - only in the context of him expressing speculative personal opinions (attanomati) about Aacariya Buddhaghosa. Only in that light, I advised Joop and his like-minded people to see those opinions as they are. And not to accept them as if scientific facts! With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Suan (& Joop), I appreciated your discussions with DN while we were away and especially the quotes you provided on phassa (contact). you may like to repost any of the discussion for Nina to see sometime. Thank you for these contributions. As you know, I'm also not a fan of Prof Kalupahana's writings -- at least of the extracts that have been quoted here, which may be unfair on my part -- and I also share your great respect and feeling of indebtedness to Buddhaghosa and the commentaries. However I'm curious to know whether you really see a knowledge of Sanskrit and employment as an academic as being obstacles in anyway to developing an understanding of the teachings and whether you see a background in science and Pali expertise as really being essential pre-requisites. Obviously most of us would fail here on the latter criteria. Metta, Sarah 38510 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:02am Subject: Re: Need help here :) Hi Lee You have to ask Dr Mehm Tin where do he get the information that the seventh javana is the strongest because of the accumulative effect of the past javana. RobM and Sarah has provided materials from Visud and also Commentary to the Abhidhamma Sangaha. Material from Dispeller of Delusion (commentary to Vibhanga) also states the same way as said in Visud and Abhidhamma Sangaha. I will check Vibhanga next time as I have no time right now :) In most cases, the first javana and the seven javana can have lapse kamma while those on the five javana will definitely see fruits of the kamma. Hence we cannot assume that seven javana is stronger than the five javana. Another issue aside, in fact the kamma arise from the second javana onwards could determine the kamma for a 100,000 aeons (I remember I read it somewhere, maybe I have misread it :) ) this is how strong a javana process is. Ken O 38511 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Hi, Htoo (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/19/04 6:44:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Sarah: > > 1) sankhara dhamma refers to any or all conditioned dhammas, i.e > namas and rupas. The only reality which is not a sankhara dhamma is > of course nibbana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So thing which is not a reality is not sankhara dhamma and > equally it is not non-sankhara dhamma. :-) ???Pannatti > ========================= Yay! Thank you, Htoo, for pointing this out. Either "pa~n~natti" are dhammas or there *are no such things* as pa~n~natti. If there are such things, then as dhammas, they are either sankhata or asankhata. There is, as you point out, Sarah, only one asankhata dhamma, namely nibbana. This leaves the following alternatives, then: 1) Pa~n~natti are sankhata dhammas, 2) There are no such things as pa~n~natti. In case 1) pa~n~natti are impermanent. In case 2), a lot of folks on DSG spend a lot of time talking about nonexistent things that supposedly can be objects of consciousness. Each of these, namely a) "pa~n~natti being impermanent", and b) "consciousness taking an object that is not an object, for there is no such thing at all" should, I would think, be unacceptable. This all says to me that the topic of pa~n~natti is an incoherent one, ill defined, not understood, and a distraction from the Dhamma. There are thoughts arising and ceasing in the mind - *they* are sankhata dhammas. But I have not a clue what pa~n~natti are supposed to be. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38512 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 128 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We are dealing with cetasikas. Citta and cetasikas cannot be separated out. But cetasikas do exist and they are realities. So it is important to understand cetasikas. We have discussed on classifications of cittas. Then we have touched each citta in turn one after another until we finished with all 89 cittas or all 121 cittas. After that we moved to 52 cetasikas. The third dhamma after first citta, second cetasika that we have discussed is rupa dhamma. We have talked on implications of rupa dhamma and different combination of rupa called rupa kalapa. Then some idea regarding nibbana was explained. Pannatti dhamma is also essential to know and understand. Different pannatta dhammas were explained in the previous posts under the heading of Dhamma Thread. So we have touched all dhammas. They are paramattha dhamma and pannatta dhamma. Regarding paramattha dhamma, we have touched all areas citta area, cetasika area, rupa area and nibbana area. Currently we are dealing with each cetasika and which cittas they can arise with. This is a bit odd. But learning so will help us more understanding of cetasikas. After that Dhamma Thread will move back to citta again as citta is the king, it is the leader and it is the basis for all nama dhamma and as we all can observe ourselves on our own cittas. So far 7 universal mental factors or 7 sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas or 7 permanent ministers of the king citta and 5 of 6 particular mental factors or 5 of 6 pakinnaka cetasikas or 5 of 6 flexible ministers of the king cittas have been discussed to some detail. Among 6 pakinnaka cetasikas, we left one more cetasika in this group of flexible ministers of the king citta. It is chanda cetasika. When we were discussing on cetasika, we have talked on chanda in comparison with lobha cetasika. Now to have a more clearer view, let us have a look at chanda cetasika and where it can arise. Chanda cetasika or wish or will is not a universal cetasika. So it does not arise with each and every citta. There are 89 cittas in total. There are 2 moha mula cittas called vicikiccha citta and uddhacca citta. Chanda cetasika does not arise in both of these two moha mula cittas. There is no way to arise 'wish' to spread out mind wandering here and there. By the same token, when in doubt there is no chanda or wish at all. There are 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas, 8 ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas, and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. In these 18 cittas, chanda cetasika does not arise with them. So chanda cetasika cannot arise in 18 ahetuka cittas and 2 moha mula cittas. Out of 89 cittas 18 + 2 = 20 cittas are removed and chnada can arise only in ( 89 - 20 = 69 ) 69 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38513 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:22am Subject: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dear venerable Vimalaramsi, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > I wouldn't go so far to say directly that Mahasi Sayadaw's method is > wrong. But I would say that the end results are not the same as the sutta > descriptions. In the book "The Progress of Insight" It says about the > experience of "Nibbana" is this : "So, through knowledge of equanimity > about formations, which is endowed with many virtues, blessings, and > powers, he notices the formations as they occur. When this knowledge is > mature, having become keen, strong, and lucid, on reaching its > culmination point, it will understand any of the formations as being > impermanent or painful or without self, just by seeing their dissolution. > Now that act of noticing any one characteristic out of the three, which > is still more lucid in its perfect understanding, manifests itself two or > three times or more in rapid succession. This is called 'Insight leading > to emergence'." ======== Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, I think this section and most of the book by the venerable are parapharases of the last section of the Visuddhimagga - but with a few of his own ideas. I understand what he means by the above (becuase I can read the full version in the Viusddhimagga). However some of the book seems to be trying to align unusual experiences from concentration with the descriptions ofinsight in the Visuddhimagga. =============== The Mahasi method says that the meditator sees one of the > three characteristics arising rapidly for three times in a row or more > then Nibbana arises. And the sutta says that ones sees and understands > the cessation of the links of dependent origination and Nibbana occurs > with that deep understanding of the 4 Noble Truths and Dependent > Origination. This is a very different end result, don't you think? > By doing the practice of the sutta instructions the meditator sees and > experiences D.O. many many times and when the letting go of craving > occurs the cessation of D.O. arises. According to many teachers the one > link in D.O. that can be let go of is the Craving and this breaks the > wheel of birth and death. This is why the second Noble Truth or the cause > of suffering is Craving is so important to see and deeply understand. > This is why I stress the letting go of the tensions and tightnesses in > both the body and mind, when they arise. To me this is the key to finally > experiencing Nibbana. =============== I understand your your disatisfaction with the Mahasi method. However, I think Dhamma is exceedingly deep and to consider letting go of tension in the body as being evidence of insight into Paticcasamuppada is understimating what insight is. =========== > You said: ROBERT:"Venerable Sariputta attained arahatship while he was fanning > the > Buddha and listening to the Buddha give a Dhamma talk to another monk. > He was rapidly entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels > while listening to the Buddha. This is because he was Sariputta and > his parami meant this was possible. Today is not the time where > beings can equal this. " ======= > Bhante* > And does this mean that he didn't have a meditation practice at all? > Insights can come to anyone at any time. Why do you think that Venerable > Sariputta was entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels while > listening to the Buddha talk? And if this was the case and he was > practicing the absorption method of meditation would he have been able to > hear what the Buddha said? According to the absorption method of jhana, > Venerable Sariputta's mind would have been so absorbed on the object of > meditation that he wouldn't have heard anything at all. == Right, he was skilled in both jhana and vipassana. Posture is irrelevant to vipassana - it can occur anytime- while fanning or being fanned, sitting or walking. It is true that for some?@samatha development, and especially for anapanasati, sitting posture is needed. BUT saripuatta had mastery of jhana, he was one who could enter and exit in an instant. ================= Bhante; And another > question is why do you think that moving in and out of jhanas rapidly > can't be done today? ================== The texts are clear that such extraordinary beings can only exist close to the time of a Buddha. Thus he was in jhana very briefly and then out of jhana. No problem for sariputta to listen to the Buddha and develop insight and jhana together. For us of today I believe even to attain a moment of the first jhana (the real one) is very hard, we have to have accumulations and the right conditions. That is why insight alone is the way that should be stressed, it can be developed without jhana. RobertK 38514 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Htoo (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/19/04 7:08:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > ========================= > Forgive me, but I don't understand your question, Htoo. > > With metta, > Howard > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Howard, > > Sarah has answered my question satisfactorily. I was thinking the > difference between you and Sarah. When one was confused, another has > already answered the question. This may be because of 'sanna' > and 'pannatti'. :-) > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't answer the question, because I didn't understand what it was. If it was where, among the factors of D.O., is to be found a self, then, of course, the answer is nowhere. But this is not a big surprise. So I still don't get your point. One *does* find within these factors the basis or genesis of the belief in self and of the sense of self. ---------------------------------------- > > You do know Bhara Sutta. There is a bulk. There is the bulk carrier. > There is the way to throw away the bulk. Who carries 'the bulk'? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know the sutta. It is not a favorite of mine, as the formulation it uses with regard to "the carrier of the burden" suggests an entity called a "person". This sutta was no doubt an influence on the heretical personalists. It is an odd sutta in that respect, quite different from others. ---------------------------------------- > > The answer is no one is carrying. > -------------------------------------- Howard: That is the answer of the Dhamma in general, but it is *not* the answer provided by this strange sutta. What is said is the following: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. "And which is the taking up of the burden? The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. This is called the taking up of the burden. "And which is the casting off of the burden? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. This is called the casting off of the burden." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------- This implies the same principle.> > > I was just inviting comments from D.O experts. > > Sarah said there is no 'I' in D.O. > > Yes. This is very true. But I was trying to indirectly see D.O. :-) > > Direct seeing of D.O is the matter of Ariyas. :-) > > I will be looking forward to hearing from you. > > May you be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38515 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:35am Subject: Re: Need help here :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: Hi Lee You have to ask Dr Mehm Tin where do he get the information that the seventh javana is the strongest because of the accumulative effect of the past javana. RobM and Sarah has provided materials from Visud and also Commentary to the Abhidhamma Sangaha. Material from Dispeller of Delusion (commentary to Vibhanga) also states the same way as said in Visud and Abhidhamma Sangaha. I will check Vibhanga next time as I have no time right now :) In most cases, the first javana and the seven javana can have lapse kamma while those on the five javana will definitely see fruits of the kamma. Hence we cannot assume that seven javana is stronger than the five javana. Another issue aside, in fact the kamma arise from the second javana onwards could determine the kamma for a 100,000 aeons (I remember I read it somewhere, maybe I have misread it :) ) this is how strong a javana process is. Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Lee, Ken O and All, The first javana citta is the weakest and this is followed by the 7th javana citta. They are so weak that they do not give rise to effect in the 3rd life onward. That is the first has to give rise to in this very life and if there is no result then its effects are used up. 7th javana citta gives rise to its effects in the second life and if there is no result then it dries up. The middle 5 javana cittas are very strong that they follow us like our own shade all the time and when there are conditions then they give rise to their effects. As they are accumulated, they have to start to give rise their effects start from the third life. That is no effect in this life and next life but there aftere until reaching nibbana. Even arahats have to accept the results of these middle 5 javana cittas until their khandha parinibbana. The citta that preceeds javana citta is manodvara avajjana citta in both of pancadvara vithi vara and manodvara vithi vara. Then the first javana citta comes. The function changes. In case of pancadvara vithi, manodvara avajjana citta does determining job. Next function is impulse and it is like running of a man. When he starts to run, his speed is weak. So the 1st javana citta is the weakest. When there is no more course to run as javana cittas, then the man has to stop his running and then the 7th javana citta becomes weaker than former 5 javana cittas. The middle 5 javana cittas are like a car in 5th or 6th gear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38516 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Sarah Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/19/04 10:05:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Now, to recap, I mentioned those things like Prof Kalupahana being a > Sanskritist and a paid-academic ... > ========================= The term 'paid-academic' has the ring of a soldier of fortune, a mercenary, or a "hired gun"! Wow, you really dislike them, don't you! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38517 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: >> > Now, to recap, I mentioned those things like Prof Kalupahana being a > Sanskritist and a paid-academic - only in the context of him > expressing speculative personal opinions (attanomati) about Aacariya > Buddhaghosa. Only in that light, I advised Joop and his like-minded > people to see those opinions as they are. And not to accept them as > if scientific facts! Hallo Suan Of course:there are no facts. There are only theories. Joop 38518 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:16am Subject: Differences between human beings and animals Hallo to all Human beings and animals are respectively inhabitants of plane nr 5 and plane nr 2 of the 31 planes of existence (The numer of 31 is not important to me: numers are just concepts). They have common that they both are living in a visible (hearable, smellable, tasteable and tangible) way in the planet Earth. Three questions are occupying me: (1) What are the differences between animals and human beings according to the Dhamma ? (2) What are the differences according modern science ? (3) Is the evolutionary theory (aka Darwinism) compatible with (Theravada-)Buddhism ? Ad 1 Peter Harvey states: "It is mostly at the human level that good and bad actions are performed. … Animals, … have little freedom for intentional good or bad actions, though the higher animals can sometimes act virtouously, if not in a self-consciously moral way. Beings in the lower ribirth generally just reap the results of previous bad actions. When these results come to an end, the results of some previous good actions will come to fruition and buoy up to the being to some better form of life, sooner or later reaching the human level again." (An introduction to buddhism, page 41) The Index of the The Visuddhi Magga mentions only three quotes with the term 'animal (generation)' in it: XIII 93: "For the animal generation is a state of loss because it is removed from the happy destiny; but it is not an unhappy destiny because it allows the existence of Royal Nagas (serpents), who are greatly honored." XIV 207: "Then according to lo0cation, painfull feelings in hell are gross, while in the animal generation they are subtle." XVII 154: "… in the remaining three kind of destiny, in other words among animals, ghost and human beings, … there are all four kinds of generation." MORE EXACT THE QUESTION IS: WHICH OF THE 89 CITTA'S, THE 52 CETASIKA'S AND THE 28 RUPA'S DO APPLY TO ANIMALS? And why ? (Maybe with a difference between 'womb-born' and 'egg-born' animals) The Abhidhammattha Sangaha is also very short about this topic. Only about 'experienced material qualities' (rupa) it states in VI $29: "in the sense planes, twenty-eight material phenomena are found; in the fine-material planes twenty-three …(etc)" Sujin Boriharnwanaket says in 'Realities and concepts': "When we have studied the Dhamma and considered it, we shall see that the cittas of all beings which arise in daily life have sometimes a paramattha dhamma and sometimes a concept as object. …. If we did not know concepts how could we lead our daily life? If one wouldn't know what the different things are, such as a table, a chair, food, a bowl, a plate or a spoon, one could not lead one's daily life. Also animals must have concepts as objects, otherwise they could not stay alive. They must know what is food and what is not food. " Ad 2 The most important physical difference between human beings (homo sapiens) and animals is the relative big volume of the brains. And it's the human brain that made it possible to use symbols (language) and memory in the form of synbols, intellectual activities (thinking, reflecting, making moral decisions) and telling stories. I have never read about it but I think animals can not practise a meditational (neither samatha nor vipassana) way of reflection. Ad 3 Is the evolutionary theory (aka Darwinism) compatible with (Theravada- )Buddhism ? (For me two aspects of that theory are important: the principle of natural selection and the hypothesis that some hundred thousand till some million years ago the first human being appeared out of a being we define as an animal.) I don't have a objective really answer to that question, but for me a fact is that: - I think evolutionary theory is till now the best theory of the origin of the species we have - ànd I know buddhism is true. When I say in this place 'buddhism' I don't mean all the subtleties of Abhidhamma and commentaries but the three dukkha, anatta and anicca. Of course the theory is not hundred percent compatible with the Sutta's of one takes all this saying of the Buddha literal. To me (just like modern Christians say part of the Bible, especially the book Genesis) can be taken metaphorically and not literally) it is not necessary to do so and still be a buddhist. We can take the stories metaphorically, or more exact: soteriologically. And perhaps evolutionary theory and Abhidhamma plus commentaries are not incompatible or even comtpatible. I prefer this possibility. Of course one can say: the Buddha has not said anything like this, was silent about it. Or one can say: this question is not important, soteriological seen. But that reactions are to easy: I like the idea of the two truths but there must be a kind of connection between the two truths. With metta Joop 38519 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need help here :) Hi Htoo Where do you get this information. I am trying high and low looking for it. Ken O 38520 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:30am Subject: Thanks for help given :) Hi, all! Thank you Nina, Sarah, RobM, KenO and all for the references. I have ask Dr. Mehm Tin Mon and he said he still think that the seventh javana needs to be the strongest in order to produce vipaka in the immediate rebirth. I know I can suggest to him that the first javana should be the strongest as it can bring immediate vipaka in this life but somehow at that moment, I was not that skilful in conveying the idea as it will seem like a challenge to him, so I just stop there. I will compile all the references provided and discuss with Dr. Mehm before end of the course. Thank you very much. With regards, Lee 38521 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante, Thank you for your response. I had a brief off-list correspondence with one of your students KK, a little while back. In that I had told her that I did not wish to compare our views on Triplegem, one reason being that my impression was that our views were too far apart, hence any discussion would most likely be fruitless and probably even arouse much akusala in me. For this same reason and more, I would therefore ask to be excused from this discussion with you. I expect that you will understand this. With regard to your question about `panna', I realize that you have asked Sarah a similar question, which in any case she will be able to explain much better than I could. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Howard and Sukin, > Now to Sukin; > Please if you will indulge me for a moment. What does Pan~n~a mean? This > definition is needed so I can understand what you are talking about. When > you said: "If we are truthful to our own level of understanding, we > might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. This is taught to us > when the Buddha expounded the many different discourses on Dependent > Origination and through direct practice we can see that we really do know > exactly. This is not some form of philosophical debate or intellectual > exercise, but can be verified personally when one takes the time and > effort to do the practice of meditation in the way described in the > suttas. > 38522 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Differences between human beings and animals Hi Joops > And perhaps evolutionary theory and Abhidhamma plus commentaries > are not incompatible or even comtpatible. k: In what ways there are incompatible? Do u like to explain more about it? Because that is a very brief statement and does not contain what are u trying to express. I prefer this possibility. Of course one can say: the Buddha has not said anything like this, was silent about it. k: What is Buddha silent about? Or one can say: this question is not important, soteriological seen. But that reactions are to easy: I like the idea of the two truths but there must be a kind of connection between the two truths. k: What two truths are you mentioning about? Ken o 38523 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard, I'll respond to just this post and leave out the others. > > --------------------------------- > > Sukin: > > There are many ways that citta, cetasikas and rupa condition each other > > and individually. How exactly these are conditioned at any given moment only panna can know. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Nice pure theory, Sukin. Every timer I read "Only pa~n~na can know," I > understand this to be a declaration of hopelessness. It's much like sentences > of the form "God will provide" and "Only God can say". +Sukin: You have come to this conclusion and expressed it before. I believe this is due to the difference in our experience of the Teachings. You're not having seen it this way, be it through theory, reflection or even satipatthana; it appears to you that such reference to panna is only an abstraction. But this is not my experience when I make such statements. When I say that `only panna can know' I believe that moment, there is some understanding of the nature and characteristic of panna, though perhaps only intellectually. In other words, only panna can say anything meaningful about panna. God on the other hand is an `idea' and can only be an object of wrong view. This wrong view implies a `self' here and `other' there existing permanently, where the former is somehow controlled by the latter. This is no where close to what panna is from the Abhidhamma perspective. No one is waiting for Panna's grace here, as others do in relation to God. There is no hopelessness because the question of hope does not arise, both being centered on `self'. It seems only when there is a `self' who does this to get that, does the problem of hope and hopelessness come in. > ------------------------------------------- > Sukin: If we are truthful to our own level of > > > understanding, we might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. The > > best attitude would be to study the texts, and even then, if one observes > > in experience what the texts say, we should know that it is > > just `thinking'. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Unless one looks for oneself, looks directly, one will never know. One > will be nothing but a memorizer. +Sukin: But what if one perceives lobha and wrong view with whatever clarity, arising in the moment? And what if this is indeed panna; would the accompanying sanna really be bad? ;-) > -------------------------------------------- > > > Sukin: And do the texts say about such things as `bodily tension' and `mental > > constriction'? Is this not a kind of observation no different from, for > > example, psychology and medicine? > > And what is this, > > "Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the > > body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind". > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would suggest looking, Sukin, instead of not looking and just saying "no". +Sukin: There is Howard looking, Sukin looking, lobha looking, avijja looking and there is panna looking. All these arise by conditions beyond control, however in principle; wouldn't you agree that only the last would ever be useful? If we can't make this arise, wouldn't the next best thing be that we don't encourage the others because otherwise we would be moving even more away from the correct path? > ---------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: Who observes what!! Neither any `mind' lasts long enough to observe > > nor does any `body' and subsequently any relationship except > > by "thinking"! Does not this kind of observation encouraging of "atta > > view"? > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. You are just playing mind games and word games, and are avoiding > direct investigation. +Sukin: When I had my brief experience with the Goenka method, I did make the observation about `tightness' at different parts of my body, esp. the forehead area. I did not make any conclusion about this except that the mind did effect the body but also thought that I was probably more `tense' than most people. I however did not see this as any great revelation, perhaps because I did not associate this with any particular aspect of the Buddha's teachings. Besides each time I looked, I always found some sensations after sensations, so I did not then think further about it. I believe also that plain curiosity was enough to reveal such things and not any wisdom was involved. But after I was introduced to the Abhidhamma perspective and trying the same thing again , it appeared to me that lobha was the cause of the pleasant feeling immediately following such awareness of tenseness and that to make a conclusion about the phenomena without taking into consideration what actually happens on the paramattha level, is an exercise in wrong view. After all, knowing that there is pain in the foot is already `thinking', sense of location in body being a concept. Thinking forehead and tightness of mind and consequent idea of letting go, does not seem to be the kind of knowledge and understanding which Buddha meant to get across to us. Nor can it be the basis of further investigation about conditional relations except by `thinking'. This is one reason why it is crucial to distinguish between reality and concept from the very beginning. And knowing this much, what do you think my attitude towards so called, `direct investigation' would be? I hope you now understand the reason for any reluctance. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > Sukin: This is why it is very important to know about satipatthana and the > > objects which it can take. Otherwise we will indulge in practices which > > only encourage atta sanna. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Satipatthana is not something to "know about". So long as you only > "know about" it, and do not engage in it, you are merely playing concept games. +Sukin: Again, "who engages"? And this is not `playing concept games', Howard. Perhaps you need to think more deeply about this. > ------------------------------------------------ > > Sukin: And this business about `calm' as being a necessary factor for > > understanding is I believe and error in`thinking'. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that is hilarious. Just read what the suttas have to say about > calm and equanimity. They are *necessary*. Sukin: When I am questioning this concept of `calm' I am doing it for the same reason that I question `cetana'. We know that all kusala cittas are also `calm'. The way most people take calm to be is such that, instead of seeing it as co-arising and conditioned by various other factors particularly in this case panna, is seen as "pre-condition" which leads to it. And associated with this is the idea of various practices, including anapanasati, as supposedly leading to this end. Calm being a characteristic of all kusala including those with panna; it seems like an error in reasoning to think that one must practice calm separately first or side by side. In fact in some cases this proliferates into the idea that calm is more important than anything else. Panna being the forerunner every step of the way as far as following the Buddha's teachings, I think it important to not just "follow" any ideas, whether this is from some revered monk or one's own, which suggests a `self' doing something. Panna in my opinion, can take any and every reality as object and it *must* be without any idea of choice. It is panna which is the occasional island in the sea of avijja and tanha, not `an hour of sitting practice' or any "cetana" to do so. I think it is very important to see the Teachings as descriptive rather than prescriptive. The `self' is ever ready to pounce upon any suggestion of prescription, and even when it is not there it will see it as one. Detachment is the goal every step of the way, yet most cling to their practices. And because of the general ignorance, I have seen more disagreement than otherwise between so called `meditators'. In fact the only thing they seem to agree upon is the need to follow this ritual called `formal sitting'. This seems to me to go against the Buddha, and reducing his Teachings to being only little better than other religions, when in fact in my opinion, is the *only* correct teachings. I assume that you and many others will not like what I am saying, but it seems some of us on DSG who are often accused of being `theoretical' are in fact more practical than most. We are labeled as `non-meditators' yet because we don't distinguish between time for practice and otherwise, and though there may be very few moments of any real understanding, in principle we should be called full-time meditators. :-) > ------------------------------------------------ > Sukin: Here too there seem to > be a misunderstanding of what the object of panna of the level of > > satipatthana is and how it is developed. Panna of a higher level is > > conditioned by that of the lower levels via sankhara. Calm has no role in > > this development and to think that it does, seems to me to condition > > again, wrong practice of one kind or the other. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Utter nonsense. This sis some sort of philopsophy, but not Dhamma. Sukin: And yet if someone were to spin out elaborate theories in the name of Buddhadhamma which happen to click with your own understanding, you may not make this same judgement about it. And then perhaps I would.....!? :-/ > ----------------------------------------------- Metta, Sukin 38524 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Sukin Just answer this in one short word Panna = anatta :) The I remember I read that someone wrote that satipatthana is only about mindfulness. I think we should read it in DN-22 where Buddha mentions 4NT as part of satipatthana suttas :). So satipatthana is more than meets the eye :). Cheers Ken O 38525 From: Hugo Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and its 12 links On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:24:46 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo:> I am waiting for the answer. I am not going into further dark. > > Hugo wrote: I don't understand the above phrase. > > Do you mean that you don't want to investigate until somebody tells > you "THE" Answer? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I can see you have a good command in Dhamma as well as mental power. I can't see how you infer that from my question, but I liked the phrase. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hugo: > > On the other hand, how can the D.O. be (seen, experienced, noted, > discerned, realized)?, that is possible to answer. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Of course. Good, so I guess your question is answered isn't it? -- Hugo 38526 From: Hugo Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hello all, On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:00:49 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > > the D.O am I? > .... > S: No 'I' in D.O.;-) I didn't read Sarah's reply before my reply to the different thread Htoo started from my reply about the lights. But given the fact that I answered basically the same, do I also get extra bonus "Sadhu" ? I promise, my reply was original, and I didn't peek into Sarah's notebook. :-) By the way Htoo, if Sarah had already replied correctly why did you started the other thread? -- Hugo 38527 From: antony272b2 Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. I wrote: > >My only > > doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The critical > > Pali > > phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who > > *deserves* > > more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be found) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38222 S: How about 'a person who is dearer than oneself.....(cannot be found)? A: Is this your translation of the Pali? Here is the original discussion on Buddhaviharas: According to the Buddha, 'You can search throughout the entire > universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and affection > than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found anywhere. > You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your > love and affection.' > ~ Sharon Salzberg, "Loving-Kindness: the Revolutionary Art of > Happiness." ......... A: I thought that Sharon Salzberg, as a lay teacher, had got carried away and unintentionally misrepresented the Buddha and that her quote was the one that is all over the InterNet (never with the reference to the Pali Canon, just with the signature "-Buddha"). This annoyed me greatly and I didn't have access to her to point out her fault. Then I was very surprised to read the translation of Mahasi Sayadaw as also using the word "deserve". Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching is always very sober, so much so that I actually find it entertaining. See "Paticcasamuppada" which I scanned in for BuddhaNet in 1995: http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/therabud/mahasipt.zip Mahasi Sayadaw was a highly regarded scholar as well as a meditation master. I think he was the questioner at the Great Buddhist Council in the 50's. ........ Patrick Kearney, an Australian teacher in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition (he didn't like it once when I pointed out another quote by Mahasi that contradicted him (that Paticcasamuppada applies to three lifetimes)). He wrote: "I cannot trace any such passage in the Buddha's teachings, but the above may be a reference to the following verse, which occurs in both Kosala Samyutta 8 and Udana 47: "Covering every direction with the mind, One finds no-one one loves more than oneself. In the same way, others love their own self - Therefore one who loves himself does not harm another." The Buddha here is not referring to that concept of positive self- esteem which is such a common theme of contemporary Western psychology, but to the bedrock self-referentiality of the self. This is *not* a teaching about assessing oneself as "worthy," worthy of loving-kindness or of anything else. "Worthy" and "unworthy" are episodes in our personal narratives, both of them based on our obsessive self-referentiality, and each is the mirror image of the other. If we identify with one, sooner or later we will identify with the other, and both are false because all identifications are false. For the Buddha, letting go of the self *is* letting go of self-hatred and unworthiness." From Dharmavision newsletter Sydney Australia 2002 ==== A: I think this is a good treatment of the position common to dsg members. I agree with you about attachment to self (the theory anyway - I am "in it" so to speak so I don't have much perspective on the attachment to self). My quote from MN 2 a while back seems pertinent: "inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I?'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html A: I still wish that I deserved metta - that God loves me etc. I didn't hear Patrick's voice here but I didn't like the tone of "*not*...worthy...of anything else" ....... S: the brahma viharas are for other beings. ....... A: Here is an adapted translation of the last section of the Sankha Sutta (my favorite sutta in the Pali Canon). I have used Bhikkhu Bodhi's "and to all as to himself" rather than Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "in its entirety". "and to all as to himself" I think is more profound and agrees with "my" views ;) "That disciple of the noble ones, headman -- thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful -- keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness imbued with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, and to all as to himself, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/forgivenessBuddhism/message/17 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-008.html Samyutta Nikaya 42:8, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publications http://www.wisdompubs.org ....... S: Please let me know your comments here, Antony. I'd be glad to continue the > thread. > > Metta, > > Sarah ... A: Thanks Sarah - it was well worth the wait - I know you are busy so thanks for your comprehensive reply. May you be well and happy, Antony. 38528 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Need help here :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Htoo > > Where do you get this information. I am trying high and low looking > for it. > > Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Ken O, This is digested material. It may be in VM. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38529 From: antony272b2 Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Sarah, Any extra point: Using logic (which isn't always good Dhamma), as the Buddha said that "one who loves himself does not harm another", whether or not one *deserves* love and affection for oneself, does it follow that one who *doesn't* love himself *is* harming others? Thanks / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for your reply. > > I wrote: > > >My only > > > doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The > critical > > > Pali > > > phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who > > > *deserves* > > > more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be > found) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38222 > > S: How about 'a person who is dearer than oneself.....(cannot be > found)? > > A: Is this your translation of the Pali? > > Here is the original discussion on Buddhaviharas: > > According to the Buddha, 'You can search throughout the entire > > universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and > affection > > than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found > anywhere. > > You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve > your > > love and affection.' > > > ~ Sharon Salzberg, "Loving-Kindness: the Revolutionary Art of > > Happiness." > ......... > A: I thought that Sharon Salzberg, as a lay teacher, had got carried > away and unintentionally misrepresented the Buddha and that her quote > was the one that is all over the InterNet (never with the reference > to the Pali Canon, just with the signature "-Buddha"). This annoyed > me greatly and I didn't have access to her to point out her fault. > Then I was very surprised to read the translation of Mahasi Sayadaw > as also using the word "deserve". Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching is always > very sober, so much so that I actually find it entertaining. > See "Paticcasamuppada" which I scanned in for BuddhaNet in 1995: > http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/therabud/mahasipt.zip > Mahasi Sayadaw was a highly regarded scholar as well as a meditation > master. I think he was the questioner at the Great Buddhist Council > in the 50's. > ........ > Patrick Kearney, an Australian teacher in the Mahasi Sayadaw > tradition (he didn't like it once when I pointed out another quote by > Mahasi that contradicted him (that Paticcasamuppada applies to three > lifetimes)). He wrote: > > "I cannot trace any such passage in the Buddha's teachings, but the > above may be a reference to the following verse, which occurs in both > Kosala Samyutta 8 and Udana 47: > > "Covering every direction with the mind, One finds no-one one loves > more than oneself. In the same way, others love their own self - > Therefore one who loves himself does not harm another." > > The Buddha here is not referring to that concept of positive self- > esteem which is such a common theme of contemporary Western > psychology, but to the bedrock self-referentiality of the self. This > is *not* a teaching about assessing oneself as "worthy," worthy of > loving-kindness or of anything else. "Worthy" and "unworthy" are > episodes in our personal narratives, both of them based on our > obsessive self-referentiality, and each is the mirror image of the > other. If we identify with one, sooner or later we will identify with > the other, and both are false because all identifications are false. > > For the Buddha, letting go of the self *is* letting go of self- hatred > and unworthiness." From Dharmavision newsletter Sydney Australia 2002 > ==== > A: > I think this is a good treatment of the position common to dsg > members. > I agree with you about attachment to self (the theory anyway - I > am "in it" so to speak so I don't have much perspective on the > attachment to self). My quote from MN 2 a while back seems > pertinent: "inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am > I not? What am I? How am I?'" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html > > A: I still wish that I deserved metta - that God loves me etc. I > didn't hear Patrick's voice here but I didn't like the tone > of "*not*...worthy...of anything else" > ....... > S: the brahma viharas are for other beings. > ....... > A: Here is an adapted translation of the last section of the Sankha > Sutta (my favorite sutta in the Pali Canon). I have used Bhikkhu > Bodhi's "and to all as to himself" rather than Thanissaro > Bhikkhu's "in its entirety". "and to all as to himself" I think is > more profound and agrees with "my" views ;) > > "That disciple of the noble ones, headman -- thus devoid of > covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful -- > keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness > imbued with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, > likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus > above, below, & all around, everywhere, and to all as to himself, he > keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued > with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, abundant, > expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as > a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without > any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through > good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity is thus > developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer > remains there, no longer stays there." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/forgivenessBuddhism/message/17 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-008.html > Samyutta Nikaya 42:8, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publications > http://www.wisdompubs.org > ....... > S: Please let me know your comments here, Antony. I'd be glad to > continue the > > thread. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > ... > A: Thanks Sarah - it was well worth the wait - I know you are busy so > thanks for your comprehensive reply. > > May you be well and happy, > > Antony. 38530 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > Hello all, > > On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:00:49 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo, > > > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > > > the D.O am I? > > .... > > S: No 'I' in D.O.;-) > > I didn't read Sarah's reply before my reply to the different thread > Htoo started from my reply about the lights. > > But given the fact that I answered basically the same, do I also get > extra bonus "Sadhu" ? > > I promise, my reply was original, and I didn't peek into Sarah's notebook. :-) > > > By the way Htoo, if Sarah had already replied correctly why did you > started the other thread? > > > -- > Hugo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Hugo, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Plus extra bonus Sadhu! I believe that you did not peep in. Because I am waiting someone. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38531 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Dear Ken O, You write: > So are differentiating conceptual right view from mundane right view. > Or do you mean they are the same :). > > If they are different, then it is true that conceptual right view > cannot be path leading to insight. If they are the same, then > conceptual right view is the path leading to insight They are different. According to the Great Forty (MN 117) and the Sammaditthi sutta (MN 9) and their commentaries, "mundane right view" is the right view arising with insight, wisdom, satipatthana, direct awareness and is decidedly not the same as "conceptual right view." (Sarah may be able to explain this to you better than I because she has such a nice way with words, and I have so little time now.) I also agree that this implies that conceptual right view cannot be path leading to insight. Metta, Dan 38532 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, You are sneaky indeed! Writing a long, windy summary of what you think I think just at the moment when I am trying to close my participation in the thread. But how can I leave your misconceptions of my thinking unanswered? It is hard, but for the time being I must. A full response will be forthcoming, but it may be some time before I get back to it. I think some of the issues we discussed really get to the heart of Dhamma and discussion of them cannot be suppressed for long. You still have many misconceptions about my points, and I must take the blame for a good part of that, but the discussion has been fun. I'll get back to you later! Thanks. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Dan, > > --- "Dan D." wrote: > > I'm going to try to close this thread, so my comments will be very > > brief > … > S: It's been a very long thread and at times a bit of a roller- coaster > one, but I've enjoyed it and found it helpful in many ways. Thank you for > persevering. > > As we're looking at closure, I'll try to sum up the remaining points of > agreement/disagreement here: > > 1. We both agree the ti-lakkhana are characteristics of realities. You > think there can be awareness of Suffering (aka 1st Noble Truth) without > any prior understanding of namas and rupas. I think that without a clear > understanding of the latter and furthermore of the characteristics of the > arising and falling away of the latter, the inherent nature of dukkha > cannot be penetrated. There cannot be awareness of dukkha *apart from* the > reality which is known, just as there cannot be awareness of the nama > quality, rupa quality or impermanence *apart from* that reality. > > 2. We both agree that namas *and* rupas are dukkha. You say the latter are > dukkha because they are unsatisfactory as objects which is true. I would > further say they are inherently unsatisfactory because they are > impermanent. > > 3. We both agree that Sammaditthi of the fivefold or eightfold path and as > described in the Sammaditthi Sutta refers exclusively to panna which only > takes realities as objects. In other words, it refers to moments of > satipatthana (mundane sammaditthi) and lokuttara cittas (supramundane > sammaditthi). Furthermore, we both agree that thinking about concepts of > realities or any kind of conceptual knowledge is not the development of > satipatthana or patipatti (practice) and should not be confused with the > latter. Furthermore, we both agree that conceptual knowledge may not lead > to the latter. > > 4. Where we differ here is that you do not accept there can be > `conceptual right view' which is an essential precursor to the > development of satipatthana. You either do not accept that this conceptual > right view is pariyatti or you do not accept that pariyatti precedes > patipatti. You believe that only when there have been insights, including > vipassana nanas, can there be any wise conceptual consideration or > reflection. You do not accept that panna or sammaditthi can refer to > reflections on truths or realities as taught by the Buddha if they have > not been directly realized. You consider all such reflection to be a kind > of speculation which is always wrong, regardless of whether the words are > correct or the cittas are wholesome. Clearly my understanding is quite > different here. > > 5. You believe that those from other backgrounds who have never heard a > word about realities or the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha can have direct > insights and realize at least some of the vipassana nanas in this life, > even if they cannot become enlightened. I disagree. > > 6. You believe that one can have more of an idea of someone's real > understanding by observing their behaviour and actions over a long period > and ignoring what they say or what theory they have. I disagree. I think > it is primarily by their expression that we learn about their views. One > person may have temper outbursts but a good understanding or realities. > Another person may be very quiet and calm but have strong wrong views > about self and cling a lot to having a certain show of personality, or not > really be tested in this life. > *** > Finally, just a few more words on why I see this thread as being of > importance. > > 1. If we don't think we need to hear, consider and reflect a lot on the > teachings and have an idea that insights will arise regardless, it will be > a condition not to hear, consider and reflect. Even ariyans needed to > listen and reflect further. > > 2. If we judge by the behaviour of others or oneself, we will be lost > again in a `situation' of how we think insight should manifest, rather > than developing detachment from any reality regardless. > > 3. There is the likelihood that one will take apparent insights in others > or oneself for being vipassana nanas when in fact they may well just be > thinking about an idea of suffering, an idea of impermanence and so on. We > have to consider and reflect a lot to appreciate how much ignorance there > really is and how very little is known. > > 4. Only at the fourth stage of insight or vipassana nana is the > impermanence of realities clearly understood. Only then can dukkha really > be known. Before this, there has to be a clear understanding of the > distinction between namas and rupas, a clear direct knowledge of the > conditioned nature of these dhammas and a real understanding of khandhas. > If we really think we understand the deep meaning of dukkha now, it's > likely to be a real hindrance to the development of the path. > *** > Thank you again, Dan, for the stimulating discussion. You're most welcome > to take issue with any of these concluding comments, but I'll leave > anything further to others on the sidelines at this point as I know you've > heard more than enough from me. Thank you again for your patience. You're > a good friend in Dhamma. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 38533 From: Hugo Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:28:28 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Hugo, > > Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Plus extra bonus Sadhu! I believe that you did not > peep in. Thanks. > Because I am waiting someone. mmmmm.....so then your question is directed towards somebody specific? If you state so beforehand we won't spoil it by giving the answer. -- Hugo 38534 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/19/04 11:50:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I'll respond to just this post and leave out the others. > ========================= In much the same vein as you wrote to Ven Vimalaramsi, although we two are both laypersons ;-), I think we are probably too far apart in our understanding on this matter to profitably continue the discussion. You have given your reply expressing your understanding, and inasmuch as my saying "No, it's not that way, it's another" and then our pretty much just going back & forth that way, I think I will let you have the "last word" on this. :-) With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38535 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Sarah, > --- ericlonline wrote: > > S> Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit > > grasping here? E> > I > ..... > S: And what is this 'I'? > ..... I mean I AM. You doubt your existence? E> > Only then can the conceit I AM dissolve as it will be seen that it is superflous. > .... > S: You mean 'I' will quit grasping and then 'I AM' will dissolve? Will 'I' dissolve 'I AM' too?:-/ I AM is grasping! Only when it quits grasping at objects and all that is left is I AM, then can it can be SEEN to be non-existent. Then poof! The illusion is finally seen thru. PEACE E 38536 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Robert, Now I am beginning to see where the questions you are asking are coming from, so I will try to respond in a deeper way. When you said: "However, I think Dhamma is exceedingly deep and to consider letting go of tension in the body as being evidence of insight into Paticcasamuppada is underestimating what insight is." Bhante* I think you are not really understanding what I am referring to. In the 'Chachakka Sutta" #148 in the Majjhima Nikaya (The Six Sets of Six) it gives a very clear and precise description of six of the links of Dependent origination that is very deep and detailed. And when one compares this with the sutta that I sent to you it agrees completely. Now if you were to take the Anapanasati Sutta (#118 of the Majjhima Nikaya) and look at the phrase " He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing the bodily formations'; he trains thus, 'I shall breathe out experiencing the bodily formations; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in tranquilizing the bodily formations'; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formations', then go to section #19 it says; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formations'; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formations' ; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe in tranquilizing the mental formations'; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the mental formations'. Bhante* This is done for a very specific reason. Why? so mind will become tranquilized enough to have a clear understanding of "HOW" dependent origination arises and passes away and this is very deep and precise. Now if you will look at the instructions given by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw or the Visuddhi Magga, do you see these instructions given? If not then the practice is not the same as the above mentioned sutta and can not possibly lead to the same end results. Can you see this? Because the Buddha says in the sutta that I sent to you that if one doesn't see, understand and have insights into these links of dependent origination (as seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths) they will not experience Nibbana. And if the person does see, understand and have insights into these links of dependent origination (as seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths) they will experience Nibbana. I take that to mean that simply seeing the three characteristics is not enough and that the person has not experienced Nibbana when they do see these characteristics. Why? Because that person who only has seen the three characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are referring to! And the insight gained into the true nature of the links of dependent origination are the insights that do lead to Nibbana. These are truly the deepest insights a person can have. Venerable Sariputta became a sotapanna by just hearing in a general way about dependent origination. Doesn't that say something about the importance of these insights and their depth? Again I will ask where did you get the idea that Venerable Sariputta was going into and out of the jhanas while he was fanning the Buddha? I have never read that at all. I have read that the insights that he got while fanning the Buddha were that the Buddha wasn't even attached to the Dhamma and this was the insight that allowed Venerable Sariputta to let go and then he became an arahat. I have never read that Venerable Sariputta was experiencing the jhanas while this occurred. And of course, if it did happen this way, I have never heard of it, it may be somewhere in the suttas but I never ran across it. Could you please show me where this is found? Then you said: "he was skilled in both jhana and vipassana. Posture is irrelevant to vipassana - it can occur anytime- while fanning or being fanned, sitting or walking. It is true that for some?@samatha development, and especially for anapanasati, sitting posture is needed. BUT Sariputta had mastery of jhana, he was one who could enter and exit in an instant." Bhante* I keep running across this idea that samatha is one kind of practice and vipassana is another (which comes from the commentaries and the Visuddhi Magga) but it definitely does not agree with the suttas in Sutta # 149 of the Majjhima Nikaya in section #10 it says: "These two things -serenity (samatha) and insight (vipassana) are evenly yoked together" In the commentary MA it says: "that this refers to the simultaneous arising of samatha and vipassana. The samatha is under the heading of right concentration (which I would like to change to collectedness because the word concentration has too many different meanings that can be confusing) and vipassana is under the heading of Right understanding. Doesn't this mean that both tranquility and insight can arise at the same time? And why do you think that one has to be sitting in meditation when practicing Anapanasati meditation? Remember, the instructions for Satipatthana and Anapanasati are exactly the same. Also, if you take a good look at the Anapanasati Sutta you will find that the "4 Foundations of Mindfulness" are found in this sutta Too. There is no real difference between these two suttas. One stresses the practice of meditation and the other stresses the uses of mindfulness more but they do refer to the same practice. So why is one good for fanning and the other is only good when sitting in meditation? You said: "That is why insight alone is the way that should be stressed, it can be developed without jhana." Bhante* But I still go back to why did the Buddha spend so much time and effort teaching the path of the jhanas if they weren't important. Also, why is the word Vipassana only used roughly 100 times in the suttas and the jhanas are mentioned many thousands of times? Please read the enter sutta # 111 the "Anupada Sutta", if you don't have a copy of this book you can go to the website at www.dhammasukha.org and you will find it there also, there is a recording of a talk that I gave on this sutta that you may find interesting if you want to listen to it) -Venerable Sariputta's meditation experience and show me where it mentions the word vipassana or because he was considered a "dry Arahat" when did he practice only straight vipassana. I would be very interested to know this. If as you have said from this sutta Venerable Sariputta did "only" practice vipassana in order to attain arahatship, why did he spend so much effort in going through the jhanas? Don't you think then that the jhanas are useful and a practical way to reach Nibbana? Venerable Sariputta did see and understand the three characteristics of existence while he was in each of the jhanas, and he had insights into their nature while he was in the jhanas. But he took the deep understanding of HOW dependent origination works with him into his daily activities, and this was the reason that he attain arahatship while fanning the Buddha. He had just one minor attachment that needed to be seen and let go of. So when he gained the insight that the Buddha didn't have any attachments even to the Dhamma, that was a piece of the puzzle that help things fall into place. It was the deep understanding that any attachments to anything, even a wholesome thing like the Dhamma, stopped him from the final goal. I hope that this has helped to clear things up for you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38537 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Greetings Sukin, It is too bad that you feel this way it robs both of us from a deeper understanding. Metta, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38538 From: Charles Thompson Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Good friend Bhante Vimalaramasi, Htoo, et al Please forgive my jumping in. If this message is improper; please, delete it. Bhante Vimalaramasi, you wrote Bhikkhu Bodhi was in New Jersey. Two questions, if I may: 1. Is Bhikkhu Bodhi well; and, 2. Is Bhikkhu Bodhi in Great Britain or USA? Thank you, sincerely. metta (maitri), Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhante Vimalaramsi To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I must regretfully decline this request. Because I am not that educated in the Pali language. If you are really interested in this project you could ask Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Bodhi monastery in New Jersey. If he would be willing to take the time and effort I would be very happy to add what little I know. Sorry. Being in a very remote area of the country I don't have the access to the many books I would need to do this project. I have lots of problems even getting the Pali-English dictionaries. I have friends in Malaysia who have promised to get me as many Pali-English dictionaries as possible but I haven't received any yet. So it goes. I wish I could do this project for you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38539 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, I don't wish to argue what you have to say about tranquility, because I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I do have some doubts about the authenticity of the Anupada Sutta. The Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta attained enlightenment during a "fortnight" of uninterrupted meditation and that he attained enlightenment while in the fourth immaterial jhana.* However, other Buddhist documents, and suttas, point to the fact that Sariputta attained enlightenment while fanning the Buddha and listening to a discourse. Also, the sutta states that Sariputta was mindful of contact and feelings while in the immaterial jhanas when that could not be possible. The Buddha has explained in many suttas that the immaterial jhanas take a single sphere as the object of concentration. One could not be in the jhana of the Sphere of Nothingness, for example, and also be noting physical sensations. It doesn't make much sense to me and doesn't correspond with how the Buddha describes the jhanas in many other suttas. What do you make of this? Metta, James *2. "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. 3. "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he recalled the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: `So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: `There is no escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that, he confirmed that there is not. 38540 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard./ Chuck. Hello Chuck, all, Bhikkhu Bodhi is at The Bodhi Monastery, 67 Lawrence Road Lafayette, NJ 07848-3018 The website (includes contact details): http://www.bodhimonastery.net/main.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Thompson" wrote: > Good friend Bhante Vimalaramasi, Htoo, et al > > Please forgive my jumping in. If this message is improper; please, delete it. > > Bhante Vimalaramasi, you wrote Bhikkhu Bodhi was in New Jersey. > > Two questions, if I may: > > 1. Is Bhikkhu Bodhi well; and, > > 2. Is Bhikkhu Bodhi in Great Britain or USA? > > Thank you, sincerely. > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck 38541 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Hi Bhante Vimalaramsi I have not reference the Visud, a quick note to this sutta. When Buddha said that breathing in, one experience the mental formation, bodily formation, is this experience talking about present human experience or experience in which only Noble Ones or those on the path to the Noble ones experience it. Buddha has described in the suttas that citta and rupas are very fast and there is no simile how to described it. Will get back on whether Visud and the sutta talking about the same thing. BV: Why? Because that person who only has seen the three characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are referring to! k: Do you mean there is another characterisitcs that is described by the Buddha? Impersonal process is anatta which is part of the 3 characterisitcs. Ken O 38541 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Hi Bhante Vimalaramsi I have not reference the Visud, a quick note to this sutta. When Buddha said that breathing in, one experience the mental formation, bodily formation, is this experience talking about present human experience or experience in which only Noble Ones or those on the path to the Noble ones experience it. Buddha has described in the suttas that citta and rupas are very fast and there is no simile how to described it. Will get back on whether Visud and the sutta talking about the same thing. BV: Why? Because that person who only has seen the three characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are referring to! k: Do you mean there is another characterisitcs that is described by the Buddha? Impersonal process is anatta which is part of the 3 characterisitcs. Ken O 38542 From: Charles Thompson Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard./ Chuck. Good friend Christine, et al a very warm thank you for your rapid reply. Hmmm, I must change my local plans... I am in the Philadelphia, PA USA (USA east coast) area preparing to fly, December 5, to Thailand for 3 or 4 months. New Jersey is just next door... Thank you again. metta (maitri), Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 6:34 PM Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard./ Chuck. Hello Chuck, all, Bhikkhu Bodhi is at The Bodhi Monastery, 67 Lawrence Road Lafayette, NJ 07848-3018 The website (includes contact details): http://www.bodhimonastery.net/main.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that ...rest deleted by Chuck 38543 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Howard Dear Howard, and all How are you? Howard wrote: "The term 'paid-academic' has the ring of a soldier of fortune, a mercenary, or a "hired gun"! Wow, you really dislike them, don't you!" You are spot-on! They are no different from mercenaries, only the battle fields. The ideological battle field and the blood-and-near- death guns-and-bullets battle field! However, it is not that I dislike them. I merely wanted to expose the state of the affairs in the academic world. They have to say what they are paid to say. That is a fact of life in the world of market forces. Glad to hear from you, Howard. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/19/04 10:05:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Now, to recap, I mentioned those things like Prof Kalupahana being a > Sanskritist and a paid-academic ... > ========================= The term 'paid-academic' has the ring of a soldier of fortune, a mercenary, or a "hired gun"! Wow, you really dislike them, don't you! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38544 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/19/04 8:43:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Dear Howard, and all > > How are you? > > Howard wrote: > > "The term 'paid-academic' has the ring of a soldier of fortune, a > mercenary, or a "hired gun"! Wow, you really dislike them, don't > you!" > > You are spot-on! They are no different from mercenaries, only the > battle fields. The ideological battle field and the blood-and-near- > death guns-and-bullets battle field! > > However, it is not that I dislike them. I merely wanted to expose > the state of the affairs in the academic world. They have to say > what they are paid to say. That is a fact of life in the world of > market forces. > > Glad to hear from you, Howard. --------------------------------------- Howard: It's always good to talk with you too. :-) -------------------------------------- > > With regards, > > Suan > ====================== Just for the record, Suan - I do presume you know what line of work I've been in for the past 32-33 years? I've been a college professor! ;-)) For two years prior to that I was a college instructor, giving me a total of 34-35 years of being that most dreadful of monsters, an academic! ;-)) [It happens that I'm on leave this semester, and then I am retiring.] Over the years I've known academics of all sorts - some whom I've admired and others rather much the opposite. I've never found it possible to paint them all with the same brush. They vary from division to division, within a division - from discipline to discipline, and within a discipline - from person to person. I've known brilliant researchers in the sciences who are as humble as one could ever hope for. I've known brilliant, well published mathematicians and philosophers, and folks in the humanities who are equally humble and kind. I've also known others who are egomaniacs, selfish, and, most especially, pompous. In my experience, typically the administrators are the worst - but there are striking exceptions there as well. There are all types, Suan. They are certainly not to be condemned across the board. Evidently, you have personally met up with a really "bad bunch"! I'm sorry for that. Were they in Buddhist studies? I often tell my wife that I am so grateful for not working in that area, because that would probably remove much of the joy in the Dhamma that I have. There certainly are some wonderful and sincere Buddhists in the academic world - but theirs is not an easy road it seems to me, not so much because of "market forces", but because many fellow academics in Buddhist Studies, in my opinion, simply take the life out of the Dhamma by taking an approach that is dry, pedantic, and emphasizing of inessentials. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38545 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings James, I am not bothered or upset that you question me on anything that I may say, so please don't feel like you are showing any disrespect. I am most interested in helping in any way that I can. As a matter of fact the way I teach a retreat is by asking questions for the meditators to bring up their doubts so they can be let go of. So with that said, actually Venerable Sariputta didn't realize nibbana until after he had the experience of the cessation of perception and feeling, not the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Now we get into something that is not discussed very much, about the Path and Fruition or magga and phala in Pali (Actually I am writing a book currently about how this occurs according to the suttas. It is quite different from the standard approach that is being taught today). In the Kitagiri Sutta # 70 in the Majjhima Nikaya it states somethings about how the Path and Fruition (magga - phala) are experienced. When one becomes a sotapanna (that is one who has the experience of magga without the experience of phala [fruition]) they are either called a 'Faith- striver' a 'Dhamma-striver' (this depends on the way they gained their understanding of Dhamma) Both of these types of persons have experienced the initial experience of Nibbana (magga), but they have not experienced the Fruition (Phala) of that experience. Venerable Ananda was a 'Dhamma-striver" for more than 20 years before he actually did experience the fruition of that attainment. When he finally did have the fruition (phala) occur he when to the Buddha (as it says in the Digha Nikaya #15 - "The Mahaanidaana Sutta - The Great Discourse on Origination". In this sutta Venerable Ananda told the Buddha that understanding dependent origination was very easy. (because being a Dhamma-Striver he was very interested in dependent origination and this is the way that a Dhamma-Striver attains the fruition [phala]) {I will provide the sutta information about this in a later post}. But the Buddha scolded Venerable Ananda saying that this in fact is not easy to understand and it takes a Buddha to teach it in such a way that it is understandable. Anyway, getting back to the Kitigiri Sutta, there is a: 1] Sotapanna without the experience of the Path (magga) and a Sotapanna who has the experience of the Path and Fruition (magga and phala) 2] Sakadagami with the experience of the Path (magga), and a Sakadagami with experience of both the Path and Fruition (magga-phala) 3] Anagami with the experience of the Path (magga), and the Anagami with both the Path and Fruition (magga- phala) 4] An Arahat with the experience of the Path (magga), and the Consummate One the Arahat who has experienced both the Path and Fruition (magga - phala) When one is reciting the qualities of the Sangha - these are the 8 types of individuals that are worthy of gifts. So getting back to Venerable Sariputta's experience of the Attainment of Nibbana The Anupada Sutta says that after coming out of the state of the cessation of perception and feeling his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This means that he did experience being an arahat but he had not had the Fruition of that attainment. When he was fanning the Buddha and realized that the Buddha didn't even have an attachment to the Dhamma, then he had the fruition of arahatship arise. Also, in the Anupada Sutta (you said ***"the sutta states that Sariputta was mindful of contact and feelings while in the immaterial jhanas when that could not be possible***.") Here we are getting into the differences between the "one-pointed absorption jhana" and the "Tranquility jhana". You see this is the main difference between the two kinds of jhana. When a person is doing meditation and doesn't tranquilize the bodily and mental formations often, mind has a strong tendency to go very deep into the object of meditation and then mind will become absorbed. One-pointed absorption concentration brings a tightness back to the meditation object because there is no relaxing of mind or body, while the tranquility meditation doesn't bring this tightness or tension back to the meditation object, and because of this the results are quite different. So,the force of the one-pointed absorption concentration becomes very deep and very strong, so strong in fact: 1] that sounds are not heard, 2] someone can come up to a person who is deep in their absorption and actually hit that meditator and the meditator will not feel it. 3] A person can come up to an absorbed meditator and move their body into all different types of postures and the meditating person who is so absorbed won't even know it. etc. Because of this, the people who practice straight vipassana say that there is no full awareness or mindfulness taking place when mind is so absorbed and they are right! And also this is why people who practice vipassana say that the only way to attain Nibbana is for the meditator to come out of the jhana and begin to practice vipassana. And when one is looking at absorption concentration jhana they are 100% correct. (But fortunately the Buddha didn't teach this form of absorption concentration). And this is where the misunderstanding about the jhana practice takes place. This is the kind of arupa jhana that you were referring to in your above comment. Also, when one is practicing any form of upacara samadhi or "access concentration" (the step right before the full absorption stage currently called appana samadhi) this meditators force of the concentration will actually suppress or we can say the force of the concentration stops any hindrances from arising. I know that this sounds like a good thing but the hindrances are where our deep attachments and false ego beliefs are stored, so suppressing the hindrances doesn't really purify ones mind or show the meditator "HOW" the links of dependent origination actually arise. But this kind of absorption concentration does postpone the hindrances from arising. These suppressed hindrances can and will arise when one's absorption concentration fades away, like when the meditator starts doing their daily activities. Getting back to your observation about experiencing the 5 aggregates while one is in an arupa jhana. When the meditator follows the sutta method of tranquilizing the bodily and mental formations, their minds don't become "absorbed" or stuck to the meditation object. Sounds can be heard even while the meditator is in an arupa jhana, bodily sensation can be felt while in an arupa jhana, but and this is a big but, the mind of the meditator doesn't shake or move. They do know if someone comes up and touches them or speaks to them and their equanimity is so strong that the meditator just lets it go. They still have all of the sense doors while they experience the arupa jhana but because the equanimity becomes so strong and their letting go of whatever arises in the present moment is so clear that these things don't even become a distraction at all. They are just something else to see as a part of the impersonal process of dependent origination and they let it be. You see even while one is experiencing such deep states as the arupa jhanas (when they are practicing the sutta method of meditation) the meditators mind is still able to see and understand with clarity the impersonal nature of everything that arises and passes away. I could go on with this explanation and will in another post if you want me to. But for now I have given you a lot to consider. I do teach this method because many, many people have actually seen what I am talking about and gone even deeper. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this works this way. Also, I do know that it may be quite different from what you may have heard from other teachers. I did practice another method for 20 years and I did become successful by their standards, I heard that there are only 2 kinds of meditation to practice absorption concentration and vipassana. But through going back to the suttas and following the instructions given there I have found that there is another type of meditation and that is the sutta method that is not an absorption method of meditation, and the meditator still does experience the jhanas. I sincerely hope that I didn't cause too much confusion or cause more doubts to arise. But if I did please don't hesitate to ask for more clarification. May you attain Nibbana quickly and easily in this very life! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38546 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. I would like to continue this discussion in the hopes that I may learn from the effort and your answers. You write that Sariputta only attained the path of arahantship in the Anupada Sutta but he didn't attain the fruit. You wrote that he attained the fruit of arahantship at a later time while fanning the Buddha and listening to a discourse. I could accept this and it sounds quite logical, but my reading of the Anupada Sutta leads me to believe that he attained the fruit of arahantship during that night of meditation. Granted, I am not really expert on the paths and the fruits because different sources appear to say different things about this (In this group, Sarah and I debated a long time about the fruits of sotapanna and never reached agreement). Let me quote some material I found that matches my understanding of the fruits of arahantship, and I will see if you agree: "The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassananana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (magganana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena -- impermanence, suffering and non-self. [1] It takes as its objective sphere the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) -- material form, feeling perception, mental formations and consciousness. Because insight knowledge takes the world of conditioned formations as its object, it is regarded as a mundane form of wisdom. Insight knowledge does not itself directly eradicate the defilements, but serves to prepare the way for the second type of wisdom, the wisdom of the supramundane paths, which emerges when insight has been brought to its climax. The wisdom of the path, occurring in four distinct stages ( to be discussed below ), simultaneously realizes Nibbana, fathoms the Four Noble Truths, and cuts off the defilements. This wisdom is called "supramundane" because it rises up from the world of the five aggregates to realize the state transcendent to the world, Nibbana." http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/jhanas/jhanas05.htm Therefore, my understanding is that the fruit of arahantship is the eradication of the defilements. And, the Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta eradicated his defilements, if the translation I have is correct: "2. "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom." Is this translation correct? If so, I would think that he could only destroy his taints one time, and not a second time while fanning the Buddha. The Anupada Sutta also goes on to state: 3. "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he recalled the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: `So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: `There is no escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that, he confirmed that there is not." I would like to call your attention to the phrase "There is no escape beyond". This sounds pretty final to me. It sounds like he did everything that needed to be done. As far as what you have to say about the immaterial jhanas, I guess I will have to process that in my mind a bit more. You say that you speak from personal experience, and I have no reason to doubt you, but I still don't understand how it is possible. I don't understand how it is possible to have absorption of an immaterial sphere and to also be mindful of material reality. It would seem that that person would almost need two minds, or to switch back and forth somehow. Not only that, the Buddha spoke about how attaining the immaterial jhanas would result in rebirth in those spheres if the taints weren't destroyed. This also leads me to believe that the immaterial jhanas require a sort of attachment to them to be achieved, which is contrary to the way you describe them. However, you say that there are in fact two type of jhanas. I am not sure if the Buddha taught this or if this is an extrapolation on your part (and if you stay in this group long enough you will see that there are some members who also believe in two different types of jhanas, but they don't match yours. [See UP: Jhana-Two Meanings"*] So, now there could be three different types of jhanas!! What's a jhana seeker to do?? ;-)) Metta, James *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Sarah: When these lines were briefly discussed on our last trip to Bkk, K.Sujin was referring to these same two kinds of jhana, `amramma.nuupanijjhaana' and `lakkhanuupanijjhaana', and suggesting that in this context it is the second meaning, i.e (the contemplation/penetrating of) the characteristics of any reality that is being referred to. 38547 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Dear Sarah, RobM, or anyone, Wonderful, however when I went to listen to the recorded discussions, they would only play for about 3 seconds and then stop. I kept pressing play on the player, it would play again for a short time and stop. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. Sarah, the photos of India are great. The ones on Vultures Peak look good, I had forgotten how high up we were. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi RobM, > > --- robmoult wrote: > > > > > > Hi All (especially Sarah / Jon); > > > > Great news! All of the old messages from DSG discussions have been > > put into files which can be accessed at: > > > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > .... > Thanks so much for reporting back and I'm delighted to hear you've > successfully downloaded onto your hard-drive. 38548 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:09am Subject: Rarity of sati (Bhante V) Dear¡¡Bhante Vimilaramsi Let me preface by saying again how grateful I am to be able to discuss Dhamma in this way with a venerable monk. I am aware of how impudent I appear by discussing with you as though we were equals in understanding. But I am also aware that you appreciate how beneficial this process can be for correcting my views. So thank you again. Don¡Çt feel any obligation to respond. I know you are busy discussing in several threads. Bhante V: One of the things that may be interesting to you is to change 'investigation of realities' to 'investigation of one's experience' this is a small changing of words but it may help. Phil: I absolutely agree about the unparalleled value of ¡Èinvestigations of one¡Çs experience¡É, but I don¡Çt think this is quite the ¡Èinvestigation of realities/phenomena¡É that is one of the factors of awakening (bojjhangas) This investigation of dhammas surely falls within examining one ¡Çs experience but it is a more refined and rare event, I think. I don¡Çt know how rare. It is quite possibly not as rare as I think it to be. But I think it is best to have patient expectations about it. You place an emphasis on nibbana in this lifetime. I have learned that it is not impossible, and that as we know there are suttas in which householders become arahant in short order. But I have a *strong hunch* that it is not wise to build our expectations based on these suttas. What is the point of expecting nibbana in this lifetime? If it comes, it will come because of our progress in eradicating defilements, not because of our expectation of it. That is my opinion, of course. I don't think there would be so many mentions of countless aeons if it weren't for the purpose of conditioning patience. "This lifetime is just a moment" is a teaching I have learned well. It is not from a sutta, I guess, but I have deeply sensed its truth recently. It's a very liberating teaching, and Dhamma is all about liberation. Bhante V: The Idea that if one experiences even one moment of Satipatthana makes this a worthwhile rebirth doesn't really agree with the Buddha's teachings (my opinion). I have run across a few monks in Asia that have the idea that trying to experience the Buddha's teachings is just too difficult for most people so they say things like this. I really don't understand this at all, maybe they don't have enough understanding of the Buddha's path or became confused, but I find this kind of thinking to be quite contrary to the suttas. Phil: Again, patience. The perfection of patience is very important. I have learned that we have to learn to be patient with good and pleasant things as well as with unpleasant ones. We often forget this. When a beginner like myself has his eyes opened to the glorious wealth of Dhamma it is so easy to become hungry for more, more, more. More peace. More wisdom. More love. In my opinion, this teaching of the rarity of sati is very helpful for the reasons laid out above. It moderates my expectations in a wholesome way. There is less thinking about becoming enlightened in this lifetime (not that that is necessarily impossible) and more appreciation of the moment. I think of that beautiful sutta in Samyutta Nikaya in which the devas wonder why the monks faces are so radiant ? it is because they do not think of the future, they live on the present. I think this has something to do with why I have responded well to the idea of sati and other wholesome factors being rare, why I have responded well to reminders that it took the Buddha countless lives to reach the ultimate liberation. It helps me to be patient when this wonderful wealth of Dhamma is being revealed to me, little bit by little bit. On the other hand, I have experienced radical progress in certain areas. The eradication of anger. The lessening of angry outbursts is very remarkable, very clear. So while I speak of patient expectations, I can also see areas of radical progress. That supports my patience. £Éimagine that in your teaching of westerners (particularly North-Americans?) you have found that many are too impatient, too expectant of immediate results. I assume that. I have certainly seen it at other internet groups. The other extreme about being too patient is also not wise. Thus my thread about being impatient with certain kinds of defilements. To summarize on this point, if sati is indeed not as rare as I have been taught, there is nothing that will prevent me from having this not-so-rare sati. The only downside to it is that, as I have sensed, some newcomers to Abhidhamma (through this group and Nina¡Çs books) are resistant to this idea of rare kusala, and therefore do not stick around long enough to experience the liberating benefits of Abhidhamma. I have sometimes thought that Nina and other writers on Abhidhamma could present it in a way that is a bit more inviting to western beginners. Because, as I have said, we in the west expect results. Perhaps there could be more explicit consideration in Nina¡Çs books of the benefits of shallow degrees of sati and panna without quite as much emphasis on the rarity of the deeper degrees. Perhaps. But that would be using wrong understanding to coax people towards right understanding, and that would be playing with fire. This is all subjective talk on my part, Bhante. I am not capable of proving whether the idea of the rarity of sati and other wholesome cittas is found it the Suttanta. And I know other teachers, such as Ajahn Chah, teach sati as something that should be maintained almost constantly. These contradictions don¡Çt concern me. It is good to be flexible, to be open to many roads to detachment. If a teaching doesn¡Çt help bring one closer to detachment, one will know soon enough, and it will be abandoned. If one doesn¡Çt have the discernment to abandon false teachings, one won¡Çt have the discernment to benefit from the true teachings, in my opinion, so the need some people feel to warn others of false teachings is moot, in my opinion. Thank you for your time, and, again, please feel no obligation to respond. It is very helpful for me to write out my ideas like this. Metta, Phil 38549 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, RobM, or anyone, > Wonderful, however when I went to listen to the recorded > discussions, they would only play for about 3 seconds and then stop. > I kept pressing play on the player, it would play again for a short > time and stop. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions? > Thanks in advance. .... Pls wait a little longer for an announcement on the audio side....I can't hear them either. The India series which will be uploaded soonish are very good - thx for all the good, clear qus. ...... > Sarah, the photos of India are great. The ones on Vultures Peak > look good, I had forgotten how high up we were. .... We're certainly not photographers and it's a very old camera, but when Chris said hers had broken down, I thought I'd put a few there..just a taste. I have to say you look very at home with the python....;-) Metta, Sarah ========= 38550 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Hi Azita, Sarah and all, If your internet connection is not so fast, your player will download a few seconds of audio, play it and then wait until it has downloaded more. My internet connection is fast so I have no problems listening to the full talk without interruption. If your internet connection is not fast, to get around this, you take a two step process: - Download the entire file to your computer (right click and select "Save target as..."); this could take a while as the files are not small - Once the file has been downloaded onto your computer, you should be able to double-click on it and listen without interruption Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita, > > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sarah, RobM, or anyone, > > Wonderful, however when I went to listen to the recorded > > discussions, they would only play for about 3 seconds and then stop. > > I kept pressing play on the player, it would play again for a short > > time and stop. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions? > > Thanks in advance. > .... > > Pls wait a little longer for an announcement on the audio side....I can't > hear them either. > > The India series which will be uploaded soonish are very good - thx for > all the good, clear qus. > ...... > > Sarah, the photos of India are great. The ones on Vultures Peak > > look good, I had forgotten how high up we were. > .... > We're certainly not photographers and it's a very old camera, but when > Chris said hers had broken down, I thought I'd put a few there..just a > taste. > > I have to say you look very at home with the python....;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= 38551 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Dear RobM and Sarah, Thanks to both of you. Slowness is probably the problem, Rob. My internet connection is quite slow; because of where I live, broadband is not possible. I'll try your other suggestion. With metta, Azita. P.S, Sarah, did you know that very python laid an egg down the front of one of our group? It was quite a large snake, wasn't it? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Azita, Sarah and all, > > If your internet connection is not so fast, your player will > download a few seconds of audio, play it and then wait until it has > downloaded more. My internet connection is fast so I have no > problems listening to the full talk without interruption. > ......snip...... > Hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 38552 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Dear Azita & RobM, --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > Dear RobM and Sarah, > > Thanks to both of you. > Slowness is probably the problem, Rob. My internet connection > is quite slow; because of where I live, broadband is not possible. > I'll try your other suggestion. .... S: After loading the India series, we have in mind to offer to send out MP3 discs to anyone unable to listen/download. So if nothing works, we have yet another back-up plan in the works....more patience needed;-). Stay posted......we're learning as we go along too. RobM, thx for telling us it's working your end and helping others. .... > P.S, Sarah, did you know that very python laid an egg down the > front of one of our group? It was quite a large snake, wasn't it? .... Very large and yes, I'm glad the egg wasn't laid whilst it was round my neck!! Metta, Sarah p.s As people like you guys are already testing out the recording of the discussion on Bkk from our last visit, I should mention that it's a very detailed discussion and probably only suitable for those with some familiarity with Pali and abhidhamma terminology (e.g those who've been around on DSG for sometime). The India series coming up, on the otherhand, will be very suitable and of interest I think, to everyone. It starts with the great discussion we had on the first morning in Bodh Gaya with Jill's qu on satipatthana. ===== 38553 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Differences between human beings and animals Hallo Ken O You asked me: J: And perhaps evolutionary theory and Abhidhamma plus commentaries > > are not incompatible or even compatible. k: In what ways there are incompatible? Do u like to explain more > about it? Because that is a very brief statement and does not > contain what are u trying to express. Joop: I have not stated they are incompatible, I put the question. And I have not found references in the literature (with 'google') that answer that question, like orthodox ('creationists') christians say it is imcompatible. My impression (not more than that) is that the Abhidhamma is rather static and difficult to combine with the idea that species (for example an animal) can have mutations and evolute into other species (for example human being). ================================================== J: I prefer this possibility. Of course one can say: > > the Buddha has not > > said anything like this, was silent about it. k: What is Buddha silent about? Joop: I quote from the Majjhima Nikaya 63 (Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta) the first of the questions to which the Buddha remained silent: "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then, as Ven. Malunkyaputta was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in his awareness: "These positions that are undisclosed, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One -- 'The cosmos is eternal,' 'The cosmos is not eternal,' 'The cosmos is finite,' 'The cosmos is infinite,' 'The soul & the body are the same,' 'The soul is one thing and the body another' …." These questions can easily been reformulated in modern scientific language. I'm sure that if Malunkyaputta should have asked about the evolutionary theory, the Buddha should have been silent too: it also can only be answered on a speculative way (in the time the Buddha lived) and should not help to enlighten Malunkyaputta. ============================================== J: Or one can say: this question is not important, soteriological seen. > > But that reactions are to easy: > > I like the idea of the two truths but there must > > be a kind of connection between the two truths. k: What two truths are you mentioning about? Joop: I realize now that the principle of the two truths is more a Mahayana way of saying and in Theravada is mostly described as the principle of the two realities: that of pannatti (concepts) and that of paramattha (ultimate realities) The evolutionary theory belongs to the world of concepts, but concepts are important to understand ultimate realities. I hope this will answer your questions. But, to be honest, I don't understand why you wanted to know this. Is it interest in the relation between evolutionary theory and buddhism ? Metta Joop 38554 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:40am Subject: the 4 Noble Truths. Dear Dhamma Friends, Laying under a cool, shady tree watching some fig birds harass ea. other, I thought about dukkha in relation to the 4NT. If all conditioned things are dukkha, craving being the cause, cessation of craving being the end of dukkha and the Noble 8-fold path being the way to the end, how does one develop this path? I can hear already: 'there is no one to develop', but,but,but......:-) I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that instant? All of a sudden, the importance of this Noble 8-fold path occurred to me. I hadn't felt this before. Are these factors in order, or is it just that something has to begin the list? For example, right view comes first on the list, do we have to have r.v. first before any of the others arise? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 38555 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:54am Subject: Re: the 4 Noble Truths. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Laying under a cool, shady tree watching some fig birds harass > ea. other, I thought about dukkha in relation to the 4NT. > If all conditioned things are dukkha, craving being the cause, > cessation of craving being the end of dukkha and the Noble 8-fold > path being the way to the end, how does one develop this path? > > I can hear already: 'there is no one to develop', > but,but,but......:-) > I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and > fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be > Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that > instant? > > All of a sudden, the importance of this Noble 8-fold path > occurred to me. I hadn't felt this before. Are these factors in > order, or is it just that something has to begin the list? > For example, right view comes first on the list, do we have to have > r.v. first before any of the others arise? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Azita, Path is not new to DSG members. The Path itself last only one single moment. That moment is real Path. At other time, it is not real Path. You asked whether it is serial. Learningwise right view comes first. But the real Path arises all 8 parts together. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38556 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Differences between human beings and animals Hi Ken O / Joop, Mind if I but in? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Hallo Ken O > > You asked me: > > J: And perhaps evolutionary theory and Abhidhamma plus commentaries > > > are not incompatible or even compatible. > > k: In what ways there are incompatible? Do u like to explain more > > about it? Because that is a very brief statement and does not > > contain what are u trying to express. > > Joop: I have not stated they are incompatible, I put the question. > And I have not found references in the literature (with 'google') > that answer that question, like orthodox ('creationists') christians > say it is imcompatible. > My impression (not more than that) is that the Abhidhamma is rather > static and difficult to combine with the idea that species (for > example an animal) can have mutations and evolute into other species > (for example human being). > > ================================================== > J: I prefer this possibility. Of course one can say: > > > the Buddha has not > > > said anything like this, was silent about it. > > k: What is Buddha silent about? > > Joop: I quote from the Majjhima Nikaya 63 (Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta) > the first of the questions to which the Buddha remained silent: > "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then, as Ven. > Malunkyaputta was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in > his awareness: "These positions that are undisclosed, set aside, > discarded by the Blessed One -- 'The cosmos is eternal,' 'The cosmos > is not eternal,' 'The cosmos is finite,' 'The cosmos is > infinite,' 'The soul & the body are the same,' 'The soul is one thing > and the body another' …." > > These questions can easily been reformulated in modern scientific > language. > I'm sure that if Malunkyaputta should have asked about the > evolutionary theory, the Buddha should have been silent too: it also > can only be answered on a speculative way (in the time the Buddha > lived) and should not help to enlighten Malunkyaputta. > ============================================== > > J: Or one can say: this question is not important, soteriological > seen. > > > But that reactions are to easy: > > > I like the idea of the two truths but there must > > > be a kind of connection between the two truths. > > k: What two truths are you mentioning about? > > Joop: I realize now that the principle of the two truths is more a > Mahayana way of saying and in Theravada is mostly described as the > principle of the two realities: that of pannatti (concepts) and that > of paramattha (ultimate realities) > The evolutionary theory belongs to the world of concepts, but > concepts are important to understand ultimate realities. > > > I hope this will answer your questions. But, to be honest, I don't > understand why you wanted to know this. Is it interest in the > relation between evolutionary theory and buddhism ? I picked up a recently published book, "Origin of Species According to The Buddha" by Mahinda Weerasinghe. On the cover, it makes the claim, "Orginal Theory of Evolution is by The Buddha and not by Darwin". I haven't read much of it yet, but it is more than 200 pages, packed with Sutta references. I tend to agree with Joop's position that evolution is outside of the scope of the Buddha's teaching. Ken, if you are really keen to buy a copy of this book, you can purchase it at: http://www.avakasakade.com/ (look under "Stamford Lake" / Religious Books) Ken, alternatively, we could meet up next time I am in Singapore and I will loan you the book. Metta, Rob M :-) 38557 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:14am Subject: Re: the 4 Noble Truths. Hi Azita, I recently gave a dhamma talk to teens (part of a Novitiate programme) on the Noble Eighfold Path. If you have PowerPoint on your computer, you should download the .PPT version from the Files section of DSG. Otherwise, you can download the .PDF version from the Files section of DSG. Azita, we haven't met, but I assume that you are not a teenager any more :-), so you may find it a little young for you in parts. If you are looking for stuff aimed at an older audience, you can download the dhamma talks on 4 Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path given by Bhikkhu Bodhi. They are available at: http://www.bodhimonastery.net/talks_audio.html Again, I suggest that you "Save target as..." if you have a slow internet connection. Enjoy! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Laying under a cool, shady tree watching some fig birds harass > ea. other, I thought about dukkha in relation to the 4NT. > If all conditioned things are dukkha, craving being the cause, > cessation of craving being the end of dukkha and the Noble 8-fold > path being the way to the end, how does one develop this path? > > I can hear already: 'there is no one to develop', > but,but,but......:-) > I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and > fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be > Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that > instant? > > All of a sudden, the importance of this Noble 8-fold path > occurred to me. I hadn't felt this before. Are these factors in > order, or is it just that something has to begin the list? > For example, right view comes first on the list, do we have to have > r.v. first before any of the others arise? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 38558 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Differences between human beings and animals Hi Ken > Joop: I have not stated they are incompatible, I put the question. > And I have not found references in the literature (with 'google') > that answer that question, like orthodox ('creationists') > christians say it is imcompatible. > My impression (not more than that) is that the Abhidhamma is rather > > static and difficult to combine with the idea that species (for > example an animal) can have mutations and evolute into other > species (for example human being). k: Abhidhamma is static because the Buddha values are also static and the law of D.O is also static. I definitely will not follow a religion that always evolve into newer religion, where values always changes. > These questions can easily been reformulated in modern scientific > language. I'm sure that if Malunkyaputta should have asked about the evolutionary theory, the Buddha should have been silent too: it > also can only be answered on a speculative way (in the time the Buddha lived) and should not help to enlighten Malunkyaputta. > ============================================== k: As long as it does not help lead to cessation of birth, Buddha will not say it. Buddha wisdom is Omniscient, in fact if you ask him for a cure in AIDS or cancer, he would have know. But he knows this does bring cessation to rebirth > Joop: I realize now that the principle of the two truths is more a > Mahayana way of saying and in Theravada is mostly described as the > principle of the two realities: that of pannatti (concepts) and that of paramattha (ultimate realities) > The evolutionary theory belongs to the world of concepts, but > concepts are important to understand ultimate realities. k: Concepts are not important to understand ultimate realities because they are different. I would say our mundane right understanding and thought are important to ultimate realities. Ken O 38559 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Dan D I like to give you some information on kusala actions but dont bring cessation of rebirth. I have read the Book of Analysis. Performance of the five precepts can be done without panna . This means those selfless acts without panna will not lead to cessation of rebirth. With regard to conceptual right view, will get back to you on another day :) Ken O 38560 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings James, I think that the confusion comes when one tries to incorporate different types of teachings. By this I mean to incorporate the commentaries and the suttas when they don't necessarily agree with each other. I do know the importance placed on seeing anicca, dukkha, and anatta by the commentaries. And to me it is done in a rather superficial way. By this I mean that these three characteristics seen by themselves as opposed to seeing them in reference to dependent origination. The latter being a much deeper insight. Also, because the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta14 (4) Ascetics and Brahmins of the Samyutta Nikaya) and the Buddha went on to say that if one does not see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, they will not attain Nibbana. So to me the seeing of the three characteristics by themselves doesn't lead to deep understanding or Nibbana. Why? Because that is what the Buddha said and through direct experience of seeing these characteristics alone, is not enough to actually experience the deepest kinds of insights. (in my opinion). Now lets take a look at the Bodhisatta's meditation experiences before he became awakened. He practiced with two different meditation teachers who were teaching forms of one-pointed absorption concentration and the Buddha did experience the realms of Nothingness and the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. But he was not satisfied with these types of absorption attainments. Why? Because he felt that they did not lead to the final release from the wheel of samsara. These teachers taught the Bodhisatta absorption concentration because that was all that was known at that time. So the Bodhisatta went off by himself to investigate and experiment for himself. At that time he was already one of the most advanced meditators in the area. Now what could he have seen that wasn't leading to the final release from samsara? He spent much time thinking and pondering on aging-and-death (taken from #10 (10) Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage in the Samyutta Nikaya). "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: 'Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and it is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death?' "Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: 'When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? By what is aging-and-death conditioned?' Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: 'When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; aging-and-death has birth as its condition'. The word wisdom (pan~n~a) here means deep understanding. Then this sutta goes all of the way through the origination of these links of dependent origination and then through the cessation of these links. he spent much time reviewing this and seeing if there was any flaws in his observations. He saw that every moment had these links arise and pass away very rapidly and as he did this he came to realize just how important these insights (deep understandings) were. Now let us take a look at the second discourse given by the Buddha (to the 5 ascetics) it has to do with seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta, this is true. But when looked at through the eyes of dependent origination, Why did the Buddha give this discourse at that time? Because even though these 5 Ascetics were already sotapannas they needed to look more deeply at "HOW" the impersonal nature of dependent origination actually arose and passed away - by seeing these characteristics in every link of D.O. they finally understood deeply enough to truly understand this process directly for themselves. In the later years until today too many people just take a surface look at this sutta and think that it is only this insight by itself that leads to nibbana. But it has to be seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. in order to have the clear understanding of HOW the true nature of all existence actually works. When you quoted this: ""The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassananana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (magganana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena -- impermanence, suffering and non-self. [1] It takes as its objective sphere the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) -- material form, feeling perception, mental formations and consciousness. Because insight knowledge takes the world of conditioned formations as its object, it is regarded as a mundane form of wisdom. Insight knowledge does not itself directly eradicate the defilements, but serves to prepare the way for the second type of wisdom, the wisdom of the supramundane paths, which emerges when insight has been brought to its climax. The wisdom of the path, occurring in four distinct stages ( to be discussed below ), simultaneously realizes Nibbana, fathoms the Four Noble Truths, and cuts off the defilements. This wisdom is called "supramundane" because it rises up from the world of the five aggregates to realize the state transcendent to the world, Nibbana." This is taken from commentarial works, and doesn't necessarily agree with the information in the suttas, especially the suttas having to do with D.O. As you can see for yourself there is no mention of the links of dependent origination or the insights into "HOW" they arise and "HOW" they cease. Again, this is what the Buddha talked about in well over a hundred suttas, so we must take it to mean that this is reasonably important and must be understood before the real enlightenment can possibly arise. The way to eradicate defilements is through truly seeing the impersonal nature of all existence through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. there is no other way. The theory above sounds good but it does not agree with the information in the suttas. When you said: "Therefore, my understanding is that the fruit of arahatship is the eradication of the defilements. And, the Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta eradicated his defilements, if the translation I have is correct:" The answer to this is much simpler than what you may suspect. When the Path (magga) arise it is very much like having an intellectual understanding. One knows and has strong confidence in the experience of what had happened. And the latent tendencies are still alive and well. When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual knowledge at all. It is kind of like one scene in the Movie "The Matrix" where they were first beginning to learn the Martial Arts. The teacher said not think how fast you want to be - know it. That is very much like the differences between the Path knowledge and the Fruition knowledge. When you said " I don't understand how it is possible to have absorption of an immaterial sphere and to also be mindful of material reality." This will come from your direct experience when your meditation gets deep enough. And with the practice of Tranquility meditation or sutta instructions there is no deep absorption, instead there is a seeing of the impersonal process of D.O. and this kind of understanding leads directly to the cessation of suffering. It does take an alert mind that is fluid to be able to do this. A mind that is absorbed into and stays on only one object cannot possibly be able to see deeply the impersonal processes that arise and pass away. Next you said: "It would seem that that person would almost need two minds, or to switch back and forth somehow. Not only that, the Buddha spoke about how attaining the immaterial jhanas would result in rebirth in those spheres if the taints weren't destroyed. This also leads me to believe that the immaterial jhanas require a sort of attachment to them to be achieved, which is contrary to the way you describe them." And this is where the true differences between the 2 different types of jhana make themselves shown. Every insight into the true nature of dependent origination helps one to realize the impersonal nature of every phenomena that arises. And by the way, this deep understanding is how the meditator goes from one jhana to the next. When one's mind has seen and understood what they have seen of Dependent origination mind will go deeper and the insights become more refined. But with the one-pointed absorption concentration the meditator is bringing back that tightness or tension to their meditation object, and if you will remember I said that this tightness or tension is craving. Craving is the "I like it ... I don't like it mind" Do you see the "I" in it? This is a real difference in the way the meditators insights arise. *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where does it describe it in the suttas? RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Again, where is this described in the suttas? It seems to me that the cause of suffering and samsara is craving and ignorance so the way to get off of the wheel is by seeing directly the impersonal nature of the process of dependent origination (as seen through the 4 Noble Truths). Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little different than just seeing them by themselves. One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much is because of their interconnectedness with each other. They are truly amazing in this way. But if one just takes a small section out of a sutta to make a point and that point doesn't agree with other suttas it can become suspect. This is the way to check to see if what is being said is correct or not. When seeing and reading the many descriptions that the Buddha made in the suttas helps one to gain real confidence because it is said so many times in so many different ways. But it seems to always come back to the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38561 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:08am Subject: The Tilakkhana and Dependent Origination (Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalar ...) Hi, Bhante (and James) - In a message dated 11/20/04 12:30:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > Dhamma Greetings James, > > I think that the confusion comes when one tries to incorporate > different types of teachings. By this I mean to incorporate the > commentaries and the suttas when they don't necessarily agree with each > other. I do know the importance placed on seeing anicca, dukkha, and > anatta by the commentaries. And to me it is done in a rather superficial > way. By this I mean that these three characteristics seen by themselves > as opposed to seeing them in reference to dependent origination. ====================== I agree with the foregoing, Bhante. As I see it, the tilakkhana are direct consequences of, and revealed in, dependent origination. As I see it, D.O. is the basis of the tilakkhana. In D.O. one obviously sees anicca, one sees the impersonality and uncontrollability of phenomena that actually appear (there is no "I" or "mine" in them or in "dealing with" them), and one sees lack of self-existence in them in seeing conditionality - and the impersonality, uncontrollability, and especially the lack of self-existence are, together, what anatta amounts to. Finally, by seeing all the foregoing, the impermanence, impersonality, uncontrollability, and insubstantiality of all conditioned dhammas, one also sees the impossibility of finding true or lasting satisfaction in them, and one sees how craving and clinging to such dhammas leads to mental pain - hence one directly sees that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Thus, the direct way of seeing the tilakkhana is in seeing D.O., and without that, the seeing of the tilakkhana is not a fundamental seeing, or so it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38562 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bhavangacittas 2. Dear Htoo, op 19-11-2004 14:40 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo: > > Thanks Nina. I am clear on mano-dhatu and mano-vinnana-dhatu and > panca-vinnana-dhatu. > > But regarding 'vinnana' there are panca-vinnana and mano-vinnana. So > are mano-dhatus also mano-vinnana? N: We speak about the dvipañcaviññanas, five pairs. there is viññanadhatu as a collective name for all cittas. But I did not see the term mano-viññana. There are, as you say, mano-dhatu and mano-vinnana-dhatu. P.S. My Email is working again, but 160 mails appeared on my list, I cannot read all. Like you did before, I had to erase a lot. I appreciate your mails where you give additional info, always good for the readers. 38563 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Nina: "Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling." Hi Nina, That was my point. I will try again. When you listen to beautiful music(1) like (lobha) arises with pleasant feeling. Along with that arises a relaxation of the body that is also experienced as pleasant feeling(2). This relaxation is a consciousness produced rupa produced by like. If you hear an off note (3) dislike (dosa)arises. Along with this dislike a contraction arises in the body that is experienced as unpleasant. This contraction is a consciousness produced rupa produced by the dislike consciousness. This is not the case with want (lobha). Like and want are completely different. Like is a sense of appreciation; want is a sense of privation, need. Part of the logic of want is dislike of want. Part of the logic of like is like of like. The connection between the two is that we want what we like. When want arises we may notice in very close proximity there is a contraction of the body experienced as unpleasant. This contraction is a consciousness produced rupa. Want may produce this contraction out of a sense of privation or a mimicking of hunger(4) or dislike may produce this contraction. Want, itself, is never unpleasant, even though it may seem so. Even if we are starving want is not unpleasant. Is this how you understand your experience? This discussion does not address the issue of what it is that we actually like or dislike when we hear a sound. I'm going to discuss that with Htoo in the dream thread. Larry ------------------------- Note 1. What is beautiful varies from person to person and time to time and depends on what we like. Note 2. Notice I am not saying relaxation itself is a feeling. "Feeling" is a word that can refer to either nama or rupa. Body-door consciousness feels hardness with unpleasant feeling. Body-door consciousness accompanied by pleasant feeling cognizes the rupa that is conventionally called relaxation of the body. Note 3. See note 1. Same logic. Note 4. Some contractions of the body are kamma produced, temperature produced, or nutriment produced. When we are truly hungry there is insufficient nutriment and one of these means of production produces bodily contractions that are cognized with body-door consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Dependent on that, desire arises. Sometimes, when we want something badly enough, consciousness produced contractions arise that are very similar to the contractions of hunger. These contractions arise _after_ the desire. Contractions can be very tiring. That is why when we travel we become unusually tired. We want to go. A sense of privation is a conceptual formation that can produce bodily contractions. L. 38564 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/20/04 2:31:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Nina: "Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling." > > Hi Nina, > > That was my point. I will try again. ========================= This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by (or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see it, aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38565 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire In a message dated 11/20/2004 11:41:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Nina: "Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling." > > Hi Nina, > > That was my point. I will try again. ========================= This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by (or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see it, aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I agree. In the 12 Fold Chain, the Buddha talks about the three types of feelings and says they are a condition for three types of cravings. As far as I'm concerned it works this way... 1) If there is a pleasurable feeling, craving for the "continuance" of that pleasure arises. (This is normally considered the craving for Being...but I see it as more fundamentally -- the craving for the "being" or continuance of a pleasurable feeling.) 2) If there is an unpleasurable feeling, craving for the "discontinuance" of that unpleasurableness arises. (This is normally considered the craving for non-Being...but I see it as more fundamentally -- the craving for the "non-being" or discontinuance of unpleasurableness. 3) If there is a neither pleasurable nor unpleasurable feeling, craving for pleasurable feeling arises. (The mind not engaged in craving after a pleasurable or unpleasurable feeling reverts to seeking pleasure which is its normal motus operandi when affected by ignorance.) In this way the three cravings based on three feelings makes perfect sense. TG 38566 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Htoo, Well done. Nice exposition of dream. I have a few questions. If we say the dream image is a memory why are not the javana cittas also memories? If memories are concepts then doesn't tadarammana citta (registration consciousness) condition memory and therefore concepts? Does 5-door determining consciousness (votthapana citta) and mind- door-adverting consciousness (manodvaravajjana citta) [the same consciousness with slightly different functions] retrieve memory as part of their function? If so, doesn't this mean that all javana cittas, even panna, both lokya and lokuttara, are conditioned by concept? Are accumulations (ayuhana) concepts? Can we understand these as memories or habits? Is concept dukkha? Why? thanks, Larry 38567 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 0:24pm Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dear Bhante, James, Nina, Robert K and All, May I butt in here. With much respect, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Also, because the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta14 (4) Ascetics and Brahmins of the Samyutta Nikaya) and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bhante quoted 'the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta 14 (4) SN )'. May I ask you which of 'the Buddha 's words say these'; please provide the original Pali and their meanings? May I ask 'what are the links of D.O'? May I ask you whether all 12 links are seen at a single moment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: the Buddha went on to say that if one does not see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, they will not attain Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Which part of the Sutta say these? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: So to me the seeing of the three characteristics by themselves doesn't lead to deep understanding or Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is difference. Seeing of tilakkhana is done by kamavacara mahakusala cittas while seeing of nibbana is done my magga cittas and phala cittas. Seeing tilakkhana does lead to Nibbana. No one saw tilakkhana before arising of The Buddha. The Buddha first saw it and this led Him to Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Why? Because that is what the Buddha said and through direct experience of seeing these characteristics alone, is not enough to actually experience the deepest kinds of insights. (in my opinion). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why not enough? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Now lets take a look at the Bodhisatta's meditation experiences before he became awakened. He practiced with two different meditation teachers who were teaching forms of one-pointed absorption concentration and the Buddha did experience the realms of Nothingness and the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. But he was not satisfied with these types of absorption attainments. Why? Because he felt that they did not lead to the final release from the wheel of samsara. These teachers taught the Bodhisatta absorption concentration because that was all that was known at that time. So the Bodhisatta went off by himself to investigate and experiment for himself. At that time he was already one of the most advanced meditators in the area. Now what could he have seen that wasn't leading to the final release from samsara? He spent much time thinking and pondering on aging-and-death (taken from #10 (10) Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage in the Samyutta Nikaya). "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: 'Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and it is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Contemplation on these were true. But at magga kala, may I ask who see D.O? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: "Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: 'When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? By what is aging-and-death conditioned?' Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: 'When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; aging-and-death has birth as its condition'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is contemplation. This is having a mental review on Dhamma. But at magga kala, magga citta only sees nibbana and no DO is there at all. After His attainment, The Buddha had to contemplate on Paticcasamuppada for a week. But magga kala is just a single moment and magga citta does not see any link of DO. Magga citta only sees nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are not DO. D.O is contemplated by paccavakkhana nana and later kamavacara mahakiriya cittas. Magga cittas do not see D.O. Magga cittas see Nibbana. No citta can see 2 objects at the same time. This is citta niyama. Even The Buddha could not abolish the citta niyama. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: The word wisdom (pan~n~a) here means deep understanding. Then this sutta goes all of the way through the origination of these links of dependent origination and then through the cessation of these links. he spent much time reviewing this and seeing if there was any flaws in his observations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is wrong to say. As The Buddha He would not think Dhamma were wrong. So The Buddha did not need to check Dhamma whether there was any flaw. Instead as Dhamma are deep, large, wide and endless, He had to spent for 49 days before He preached Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: He saw that every moment had these links arise and pass away very rapidly and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does birth arise at every moment? Does death arise every moment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: as he did this he came to realize just how important these insights (deep understandings) were. Now let us take a look at the second discourse given by the Buddha (to the 5 ascetics) it has to do with seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta, this is true. But when looked at through the eyes of dependent origination, Why did the Buddha give this discourse at that time? Because even though these 5 Ascetics were already sotapannas they needed to look more deeply at "HOW" the impersonal nature of dependent origination actually arose and passed away - by seeing these characteristics in every link of D.O. they finally understood deeply enough to truly understand this process directly for themselves. In the later years until today too many people just take a surface look at this sutta and think that it is only this insight by itself that leads to nibbana. But it has to be seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. in order to have the clear understanding of HOW the true nature of all existence actually works. When you quoted this: ""The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassananana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (magganana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena -- impermanence, suffering and non-self. [1] It takes as its objective sphere the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) -- material form, feeling perception, mental formations and consciousness. Because insight knowledge takes the world of conditioned formations as its object, it is regarded as a mundane form of wisdom. Insight knowledge does not itself directly eradicate the defilements, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This must be other way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: but serves to prepare the way for the second type of wisdom,the wisdom of the supramundane paths, which emerges when insight has been brought to its climax. The wisdom of the path, occurring in four distinct stages ( to be discussed below ), simultaneously realizes Nibbana, fathoms the Four Noble Truths, and cuts off the defilements. This wisdom is called "supramundane" because it rises up from the world of the five aggregates to realize the state transcendent to the world, Nibbana." This is taken from commentarial works, and doesn't necessarily agree with the information in the suttas, especially the suttas having to do with D.O. As you can see for yourself there is no mention of the links of dependent origination or the insights into "HOW" they arise and "HOW" they cease. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does it need to mention when understood? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Again, this is what the Buddha talked about in well over a hundred suttas, so we must take it to mean that this is reasonably important and must be understood before the real enlightenment can possibly arise. The way to eradicate defilements is through truly seeing the impersonal nature of all existence through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. there is no other way. The theory above sounds good but it does not agree with the information in the suttas. When you said: "Therefore, my understanding is that the fruit of arahatship is the eradication of the defilements. And, the Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta eradicated his defilements, if the translation I have is correct:" The answer to this is much simpler than what you may suspect. When the Path (magga) arise it is very much like having an intellectual understanding. One knows and has strong confidence in the experience of what had happened. And the latent tendencies are still alive and well. When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual knowledge at all. It is kind of like one scene in the Movie "The Matrix" where they were first beginning to learn the Martial Arts. The teacher said not think how fast you want to be - know it. That is very much like the differences between the Path knowledge and the Fruition knowledge. When you said " I don't understand how it is possible to have absorption of an immaterial sphere and to also be mindful of material reality." This will come from your direct experience when your meditation gets deep enough. And with the practice of Tranquility meditation or sutta instructions there is no deep absorption, instead there is a seeing of the impersonal process of D.O. and this kind of understanding leads directly to the cessation of suffering. It does take an alert mind that is fluid to be able to do this. A mind that is absorbed into and stays on only one object cannot possibly be able to see deeply the impersonal processes that arise and pass away. Next you said: "It would seem that that person would almost need two minds, or to switch back and forth somehow. Not only that, the Buddha spoke about how attaining the immaterial jhanas would result in rebirth in those spheres if the taints weren't destroyed. This also leads me to believe that the immaterial jhanas require a sort of attachment to them to be achieved, which is contrary to the way you describe them." And this is where the true differences between the 2 different types of jhana make themselves shown. Every insight into the true nature of dependent origination helps one to realize the impersonal nature of every phenomena that arises. And by the way, this deep understanding is how the meditator goes from one jhana to the next. When one's mind has seen and understood what they have seen of Dependent origination mind will go deeper and the insights become more refined. But with the one-pointed absorption concentration the meditator is bringing back that tightness or tension to their meditation object, and if you will remember I said that this tightness or tension is craving. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In one of my replies, I wrongly mentioned that Bhante said 'clinging manifests as tension or headache'. Now it is clear that Bhante said 'this tightness or tension is craving'. I do not believe so. Craving is nama dhamma. Headache or tension are physical phenomena. They are not equal. Craving is lobha cetasika. Any bodily sensations are not cetasikas. They are rupa dhamma. They are photthabba rupa. They are gocara rupa. They are visaya rupa. Nama does not equal to rupa dhamma. If someone makes this as equation this is wrong. Craving does not equal to head-ache. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Craving is the "I like it ... I don't like it mind" Do you see the "I" in it? This is a real difference in the way the meditators insights arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Leave 'I like it' alone. 'I don't like it' is dosa. It is not lobha. But related to lobha. Lobha and dosa never arise together. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante quote: *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where does it describe it in the suttas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This makes much sense. In vithi vara there are kamavacara pancadvara vithi vara, kamavacara manodvara vithi vara, rupavacara manodvara vithi vara, arupavacara manodvara vithi vara, magga vithi vara, phala samapatti vithi vara, and nirodha samapatti vithi vara. In rupakusala cittas and arupakusala cittas vithi vara take their specific arammana or objects. At that time they seem to take a single object and said to be deeply concentrated. But in magga vithi vara which is unlike jhana vithi vara, it is well relaxed, well balanced, well penetrated, brought insight and this insight knowledge or wisdom see tilakkhana just before seeing of nibbana. These vithi varas are well calm and well concentrated and can be said as vipassana jhana. We do not need words but need to understand. In jhana vithi vara just before appana jhana arise, there arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise as parikamma, upacara, anuloma, gotrabhu. Then jhana arises. This appana samadhi or jhana is rupavacara rupa jhana. In magga vithi vara just before appana samadhi arise, there arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise. All these kamavacara mahakusala cittas are vipassana nana cittas. After gotrabhu citta, appana arise and this magga sees nibbana. As this samadhi is appana, this can be called vipassana jhana. Understanding is more important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante quote: RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Bhante: Again, where is this described in the suttas? It seems to me that the cause of suffering and samsara is craving and ignorance so the way to get off of the wheel is by seeing directly the impersonal nature of the process of dependent origination (as seen through the 4 Noble Truths). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I was asked by Khanti Khema that 'Do you cling to The Buddha's Teaching?'. Now I see, someone clings to D.O and persistently arguing as a strong fact. Bodhisatta was shown old man, diseased man, and dead mean. At that time He noted the implication of change which is anicca and that change is suffering or dukkha. He got jhana training from Alara up to akincinnayatana arupa jhana. He got jhana training from Udaka up to n'evasanna-nasannayatana arupa jhana. These are not the answer and he went far. After 2 extremes, He adjusted and when balance arose seeing of tilakkhana arose and this exponentially raised up to asavakkhaya nana. Tilakkhana is main. When tilakkhana are really seen that is directly seen, DO is already included and it does not need to be mentioned. The frist 2 discourses are about Noble Eightfold Path ( 1st ) and 5 khandhas. When 5 khandhas were taught, they were checked with anicca, dukkha, and anatta. This is quite clear in the Anattalakkhana Sutta which is The Buddha 2nd Discourse. There was nothing mentioned about DO in the 2nd Discourse. But tilakkhanas were mentioned. Again, in the 1st Discourse, The Buddha never mentioned Paticcasamuppada or D.O. The Buddha first said this extreme was not good and this another extreme was also not good and you all had to avoid these two extremes. Then what you have to do was to take the middle way or majjhima patipada. Majjhima means 'middle' 'not extreme' 'balanced'. Patipada means 'practising path'. This middle way is Noble Eightfold Path or attha magganga or 8-cetasikas-led-Path. There was not mentioned any of DO. I did not find any DO both in 1st Sutta and 2nd Sutta. I remember KK's question again. Khanti Khema asked me, 'Htoo, do you cling to The Buddha's Teachings'. But now someone clings to D.O. Sometimes upadana dhammas are hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little different than just seeing them by themselves. One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does that sound like clinging? For me I want to study suttas, vinayas, abhidhammas, buddhavamsa, jinatthapakasani, jataka, dhammapada. I do not confine to any particular thing. I do not cling to Suttas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: ..is because of their interconnectedness with each other. They are truly amazing in this way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, if you are well learned in Sutta, may I very humbly ask you to explain on DN 15 Mahanidana Sutta? There are duties of bhikkhus on lay people. They have to teach what have not been heard before. What are 8 vimokkhas in Mahanidana Suttas? That Sutta says the practitioner has to do foreward, then backward, then foreward and backward order of these 8 vimokkhas. It will be beneficial for all DSG members if you very kindly explain on these matter rather than talking on head-ache, tension etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: But if one just takes a small section out of a sutta to make a point and that point doesn't agree with other suttas it can become suspect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now to clear the suspect please explain on 8 vimokkhas or Mahanidana Sutta DN 15. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: This is the way to check to see if what is being said is correct or not. When seeing and reading the many descriptions that the Buddha made in the suttas helps one to gain real confidence because it is said so many times in so many different ways. But it seems to always come back to the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Repeatition is because Suttas were preached to different destination at different time. May you be free from suffering. My palms are together and vow three times to you. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38568 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 0:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Dan D / Ken O / Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > I like to give you some information on kusala actions but dont bring cessation of rebirth. I have > read the Book of Analysis. Performance of the five precepts can be done without panna . This > means those selfless acts without panna will not lead to cessation of rebirth. With regard to > conceptual right view, will get back to you on another day :) I am confused. What do you see as the relationship between performing kusala and cessation of rebirth? In his previous life Sakka / Indra and his 32 buddies dedicated their lives to helping others. Their reward? They were reborn as the 33 Gods in Tavatimsa Heaven. Escape from rebirth happens when we no longer cling to continued existence. This only happens when we become an Arahant; by the way, Arahants do not have any kusala thoughts - kusala thoughts create good kamma and Arahants do not create any kamma, good or bad. If we look at the ten bases for meritorious deeds (punna-kiriya- vatthu): - The Dana group (Generosity, Transference of merit, Rejoicing in others' merit) does not require panna - The Sila group (Virtue, Reverence, Service) does not require panna - The Bhavana group (Meditation, Hearing the Dhamma, Teaching the Dhamma, Straightening out one's View) does require panna Clearly, one is not going to progress spiritually without performing deeds from the bhavana group. In fact, humans and lower devas with life-continuum mental states with two roots (no panna root), cannot achive jhana or sotapanna stage; they can perform deeds from the bhavana group, but they will not achieve jhana or sotapanna. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Phil, I think this relates somewhat to a question that you asked me off-line regarding panna. 38569 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Howard, I disagree. Aversion is not desire. Aversion (dosa) is dukkha, the truth of suffering. Part of the logic of desire is aversion to a state of want and part of the logic of aversion is desire for deliverance from the unpleasant feeling of aversion. This is a matter of logic and reasoning, whatever that is. There is an intimate relation between aversion and desire but they are not the same. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry (and Nina) - > > In a message dated 11/20/04 2:31:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > Nina: "Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling." > > > > Hi Nina, > > > > That was my point. I will try again. > ========================= > This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by > (or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see it, > aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for > dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. > > With metta, > Howard > 38570 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Dear Larry, All big questions. But I will try to answer them all. Thanks for your kind words on dream post. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Hi Htoo, Well done. Nice exposition of dream. I have a few questions. If we say the dream image is a memory why are not the javana cittas also memories? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dream images are not memory in abhidhamma. All dream images are concept. They all are pannatta dhamma. What I said in my 'dream post' was scientific memory. They are carried along nerve calls and stored in the memory area of the brain. These scientific ideas are not abhidhamma. So dream images are not memory. They are concept or pannatta. Javana cittas are not memory. Javana cittas are all cittas. But they do arise with sanna cetasika. Sanna cognizes specific marks. Sanna in collection may be called as memory. But javana cittas are not memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If memories are concepts then doesn't tadarammana citta (registration consciousness) condition memory and therefore concepts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For me, I believe tadarammana cittas are retention consciousness. They just retain the object. The object in pancadvara vithi has a lifespan of 17 cittakkhanas. That is the rupa has 51 anukhana. 1 cittakkhana has 3 anukhana. They are upada, thiti, and bhanga. Among 51 sub-moments, rupa in its initial arising cannot give rise to arammana. So 1 citta has to pass away. It is atita bhavanga citta. Next rupa does the job of arammana. But cittas are still at past arammana as it is still bhavanga citta but as rupa makes an arammana that 2nd bhavanga citta is invigorated and vibrating and called bhavanga calana citta. As there is an alarm, the running man has to stop. But as he has been running for a long time, he cannot stop deadstop. Instead he overshoots a few steps say about 2 or 3 step. So 3 cittas take as bhavanga cittas. After that 1. pancadvara avajjana citta 2. pancavinnana citta 3. sampaticchana citta 4. santirana citta 5. votthapana citta 6. 7 javana cittas So far 3 bhavanga cittas + 5 cittas + 7 javana cittas, 15 cittakkhanas have passed and among 17 cittakkhanas, only 2 cittakkhanas left. As it is still vithi vara, bhavanga cittas cannot arise. Javana cittas have passed away. So as a continuation another 2 cittas just retain the object from javana cittas. So I believe these 2 tadarammana cittas are retention consciousness. Registration is something like the function of sanna cetasika. As sanna is also in tadarammana cittas, it may be confused. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Does 5-door determining consciousness (votthapana citta) and mind- door-adverting consciousness (manodvaravajjana citta) [the same consciousness with slightly different functions] retrieve memory as part of their function? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Retrieval is done by sanna cetasika. But as it is associated with citta, this may be the area of confusion. It may be but not exactly. Actually it is done by sanna cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If so, doesn't this mean that all javana cittas, even panna, both lokya and lokuttara, are conditioned by concept? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Whom does pannatta condition? Arammana paccaya and arammanadhipati paccaya. Pannatta does stand as arammana. Arammanas are condition. They are conditioning dhamma. But 8 lokuttara cittas are not conditioned by pannatta. 4 of 8 arupavacara javana cittas are not conditioned by pannatta. 4 arupavipaka cittas are not javana cittas. But all 15 rupavacara cittas are conditioned by pannatta. So all 10 rupavacara javana cittas are conditioned by pannatta. All 12 akusala cittas, all 24 kamavacara kama sobhana cittas can be conditioned by pannatta. 12 + 16 = 28 javana cittas may or may not be conditioned by pannatta. That is when other dhamma condition these cittas they are not conditioned by pannatta. But they can be conditioned by pannatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Are accumulations (ayuhana) concepts? Can we understand these as memories or habits? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ayuhana is furtherance. It is accumulation. It is its own process and it is not memory. And not habits. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Is concept dukkha? Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. It is not dukkha. Because it does not exist from the start as an ultimate reality. It does not arise and does not fall away. It is not anicca and equally it is not nicca as it does not exist from the start. As it is not anicca, it is not a dukkha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: thanks, Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38571 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Nice that understanding, wise consideration and so on provide the > impetus for this kind of right effort, without the present 'willing' of it > to occur. All quite natural I think (even inevitable), when the conditions > have accumulated. Thanks Mike, I like your choice of the word, "inevitable," although I am sure it raised a few eyebrows. We worldlings think we have control over our morality. We think we can choose to have wrong view or we can choose to fly into a rage if that is what we want. But what does that say about the Ariyans? A Sotapanna can't have wrong view, an Anagami can't have ill will, and an Arahant can't have even the tiniest bit of conceit. So we must think we have more control than the Ariyans! That shows how ridiculous we are with our beliefs in control. We really must learn to see 'conditionality everywhere and in all things.' For that, we need more Abhidhamma study, not less (despite what some of our DSG friends are telling us). And we need more coaching from the arahant ancient commentators, not less! Kind regards, Ken H 38572 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:35pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 129 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Phassa, vedana, cetana, sanna, ekaggata, jivitindriya, manasikara all these 7 cetasika arise with 89 cittas. Vitakka arises in 55 cittas. Vicara arises in 66 cittas. Piti arises in 51 cittas. Viriya arises in 73 cittas. Adhimokkha arises in 78 cittas. And chanda arises in 69 cittas. After 7 universal cetasikas and 6 particular cetasikas, there come 14 akusala cetasikas and 25 sobhana cetasikas. Akusala cetasikas are 4 moha-led cetasikas, 3 lobha-led cetasikas, 4 dosa-led cetasikas, and other 3 akusala cetasikas. Moha-led, lobha-led, and dosa-led means they are rooted by theri root dhamma or hetu. 4 moha-rooted cetasikas are moha, ahirika, anottappa and uddhacca cetasikas. Moha is the king of akusala kingdom. Uddhacca is the secretary to moha. Ahirika and anottappa are right-wing and left-wing generals of the akusala king moha. These 4 cetasikas always arise with any of akusala cittas. So they arise in 12 akusala cittas. They do not arise in any other cittas. These 4 cetasikas are called universal akusala cetasika or akusala sadharana cetasikas. Lobha, mana, ditthi cetasikas can arise in 8 lobha cittas and they do not arise in any other cittas. Again mana and ditthi never arise together. Lobha cetasika always arises in 8 lobha mula cittas. Ditthi cetasika arises in 4 ditthi gata sampayutta cittas. Mana cetasika arises in 4 ditthi gata vippayutta cittas. 4 dosa-rooted cetasikas arise only in 2 dosa mula cittas. Dosa always arises in dosa mula cittas. But other 3 cetasikas namely issa, macchariya, and kukkucca never arise together and they even do not arise with any of them. These cetasikas do not arise in any other cittas. They only arise in 2 dosa mula cittas. 2 cetasikas thina and middha arise in 5 sasankharika cittas. That is 4 lobha mula sasankharika cittas and 1 dosa mula sasankharika citta. They always arise together. Apart from these 5 cittas, they do not arise in any other cittas. Vicikiccha cetasika arisesonly in vicikiccha citta. It never arises in any other 88 cittas. 4 moha-rooted cetasikas arise in 12 akusala cittas, 3 lobha-rooted cetasika arise in 8 lobha mula cittas, 4 dosa-rooted cetasikas arise in 2 dosa mula cittas, 2 cetasikas thina and middha arise in 5 cittas, and 1 vicikiccha cetasika arise in 1 vicikiccha citta. 4 + 3 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 14 cetasikas are akusala cetasikas. And they arise only in 12 akusala cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38573 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:08am Subject: Gain & Loss ... !!! Friends: Right Relevance: What Counts ? There are these five kinds of Gain: Gain of Family Gain of Possessions Gain of Health Gain of Morality Gain of Right View At the breakup of the body, right after death, one may rearise in a Happy State, a Divine World, only from the gain of Morality & Right View..., but neither from gain of family, health, wealth, nor possessions !!! There are these five kinds of Loss: Loss of Family Loss of Possessions Loss of Health Loss of Morality Loss of Right View At the breakup of the body, right after death, one may fall to an Evil & Painful State, the Hells, only from the loss of Morality & Right View..., but neither from loss of family, health, wealth, nor possessions !!! ______________________________________ Sources: The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya III 146 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html The Long Discourses of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya III 235 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 38574 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah (and Dan), Hope you don't mind mind coming in on this thread so late. I'm still far from caught up, so apologies for any redundancies. Thanks Sarah, I think these are good citations for this thread and ones I hadn't had time to dig up. In the case of the Kitagiri Sutta do you think the 'reflective understanding' is conceptual and that the concept might be a decisive support condtion (upanissaya paccaya*) for satipa.t.thaana or even maggacitta? I think this is more or less the way I've been thinking about it. If so it hardly matters whether it's called 'sammaadi.t.thi' or not, it is conceptual, unique to the Buddhadhamma and priceless, or so it seems to me. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" > S: So when we read in suttas such as the Kitagiri Sutta about the gradual > trainging, how one with faith visits the teacher, pays respect, gives ear, > hears the Dhamma, memorises, examines the meaning, gains a reflective > understanding etc, would there be direct awareness from the start at each > moment of 'giving ear', or would the conceptual right view whilst > listening and considering be a 'right' condition for awareness to arise > and develop? Or would it simply be wrong here? > > When we read in other suttas about the necessary factors for stream entry > being: a) association with superior persons, b) hearing the true Dhamma, > c) careful attention, d) practice in accordance with the Dhamma, are the > first three factors right or wrong? > > [SN 55, 55-61 > "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the > obtaining of wisdom,.to the growth of wisdom,..to the expansion of > wisdom,.to the realization of thr fruit of stream-entry,.to the > realization of the fruit of arahantship. > What four? > > Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful > attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma..."] *From Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA (9) Decisive-support (or inducement) condition (upanissaya-paccaya) is threefold, namely: a.. (a) by way of object (árammanúpanissaya-paccaya), b.. (b) by way of proximity (anantarúpanissaya), c.. (c) natural decisive support (pakatupanissaya). These conditions act as strong inducement or cogent reason. a.. (a) Anything past, present or future, corporeal or mental, real or imaginary, may, as object of our thinking, become a decisive support, or strong inducement, to moral, immoral or karmically neutral states of mind. Evil things, by wrong thinking about them, become an inducement to immoral life; by right thinking, an inducement to moral life. But good things may be an inducement not only to similarly good things, but also to bad things, such as self-conceit, vanity, envy, etc. b.. (b;) is identical with proximity condition (No. 4). c.. (c) Faith, virtue, etc., produced in one's own mind, or the influence of climate, food, etc., on one's body and mind, may act as natural and decisive support-conditions. Faith may be a direct and natural inducement to charity, virtue to mental training, etc.; greed to theft, hate to murder; unsuitable food and climate to ill-health; friends to spiritual progress or deterioration. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/paccaya.htm ---------- 38575 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: Yay! Thank you, Htoo, for pointing this out. Either "pa~n~natti" are dhammas or there *are no such things* as pa~n~natti. J: Yes, the second of these would be correct, I believe. Pannatti are not paramattha dhammas (and indeed this would be one way of describing what is meant by the term). H: If there are such things, then as dhammas, they are either sankhata or asankhata. There is, as you point out, Sarah, only one asankhata dhamma, namely nibbana. This leaves the following alternatives, then: 1) Pa~n~natti are sankhata dhammas, 2) There are no such things as pa~n~natti. J: Yes to your (2). While it can be said that dhammas ‘are’ (fleetingly, when they arise), it cannot be said that pannatti ‘are’. H: In case 1) pa~n~natti are impermanent. In case 2), a lot of folks on DSG spend a lot of time talking about nonexistent things that supposedly can be objects of consciousness. Each of these, namely a) "pa~n~natti being impermanent", and b) "consciousness taking an object that is not an object, for there is no such thing at all" should, I would think, be unacceptable. J: Correct. To my understanding, it is not appropriate to talk about consciousness ‘taking’ pannatti as object, in the same sense that consciousness can be said to ‘take’ a (previously arisen) dhamma as object. Pannatti are mere creations of the mind. Hence they are object of consciousness, without being ‘objects’ in any sense. H: This all says to me that the topic of pa~n~natti is an incoherent one, ill defined, not understood, and a distraction from the Dhamma. There are thoughts arising and ceasing in the mind - *they* are sankhata dhammas. But I have not a clue what pa~n~natti are supposed to be. J: Pannatti are not supposed to ‘be’ anything. The term is merely a designation for mere designations and concepts collectively, and does not represent any thing. Hence, thinking (the moment of consciousness) ‘is’, but not its object (‘thoughts’). None of this is readily apparent to us right now; indeed, the appearance is otherwise. And I realise this goes against any held views of phenomenalism ;-)). Jon 38576 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Hi Htoo, I also was at Mahasi Sasana Yeiktha for three months in '88. Mahasi Sayadaw was, as you pointed out, long dead. Ven. U Pandita was in charge. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 3:35 AM Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. > Actually Mahasi Sayadaw 'Bhante Sobhana' the great died on Saturday > 15.8.82. I was wondering how he was trained by Mahasi Sayadaw (Bhante > Sobhana). Round about that time there were some Nayaka Sayadaws > (patronic teacher monks) like Bhante Sujata of Moulmein or > Mawlamyaing and Bhante Pandita etc. 38577 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Htoo, Thanks for your answers. I don't see how dream images are not memories or how dream javanas are not memories. What is a memory? If sanna remembers a sign (nimitta), then that sign is a memory, isn't it? If sanna perceives signs then sanna perceives concepts. Isn't this the same as saying sanna creates (conditions) concepts? Isn't a dream image a sign remembered by sanna? How can javana cittas accumulate? They are impermanent. It makes sense to me that javana cittas are remembered or become habitual. Doesn't that mean that javana cittas accumulate as concepts? If so, wouldn't that mean that all javana cittas that are conditioned by accumulations (ayuhana) are conditioned by concepts? If concept is not dukkha then dream is nibbana. Larry 38578 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Htoo, Here is a section of the book that I am currently writting. It still needs some refinements but it may help to answer some of your questions. I will send it in two installments to help cut down on the length. I will try to answer your other questions also but I thought you would like to see this first. Maha Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi How is Nibbana attained, How does the person who attained Nibbana experience and Understand Fruition when it arises, and the Importance of Dependent Origination! The importance of Dependent Origination (paticca samupatta) in the Buddha’s original teachings (Dhamma) is regarded by Buddhists of the Theravada tradition, as being at the foundation and crux of the Buddha’s teachings, for a good reason. Fortunately, it is still available today for those of us who are interested in living a life free from suffering (nibbana). The Pali Canon makes it quite clear that Dependent Origination is not merely one strand or thread (sutta) of teaching among many others. It is the very essence of the Teachings (Dhamma) and is the "only way" to gain the deep insights (vipassana) necessary to attain liberation from all suffering. Currently the Pali word "vipassana" is translated as being "insight or clear understanding into the true nature of all things that arise and pass away". This definition is very good especially when one understands "how" dependent origination is a process to be closely looked at and comprehended. This is the "only way" to gain the insight (vipassana) necessary to observe exactly "how" this process is the way to recognize and actually penetrate the true nature of all existence. The Pali word "sutta" means thread or strand of string that when woven together makes up a fine and beautiful cloth, which in the same way, is the way the suttas are interwoven and interconnected in the entire original teaching of the Buddha-Dhamma. Dependent Origination is the remarkable, dramatic insight (vipassana), that was never before heard. Observing this unique perspective for ourselves is the true "way to liberation from all suffering". This is why it is at the very heart of the Buddha’s teachings. It is this radical insight (vipassana) into the workings of mind that distinguishes itself from all other religious teachings and is why this path is so important to practice and realize. Dependent origination is the essential lesson at the very heart of the Dhamma. All of the other Buddhist teachings (Dhamma) unfolds from this very core when seen through the eyes of the Four Noble Truths [which includes the Noble Eightfold Path] (that is the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Seven Enlightenment Factors, the Five Aggregates, and the Thirty-Seven Factors of Enlightenment, etc. All of these come from seeing and realizing Dependent Origination for oneself !) Once the bodhisatta became the Buddha, his entire mission was to proclaim the impersonal process of dependent origination to the world! So often does the Buddha do this in sutta after sutta, that dependent origination (as seen through the understanding of the use of the Eightfold Path) has come to be regarded as the most essential and necessary part of all of his teachings (Dhamma) to see and understand deeply. One time the Buddha was asked to state his most basic message in the shortest and most precise way, he said: "This is the impersonal doctrine that phenomena arise and cease through causes". What he is referring to is the specific processes of all phenomena. In other words, everything that arises from a cause ceases when the cause passes away. With this single precise statement, the Buddha takes away all doubt about the value and correctness of seeing and understanding this process. Dependent origination is not some simple assertion of a general observation of how conditions arise and pass away, but a very deep and detail way of seeing how mind works in minute detail. This is an important point that seems to be overlooked today in this country. This teaching holds that phenomena of a specific type originate only through these specific conditions, never through the conditions appropriate to some other type. Thus, dependent origination, is a teaching of specific stages of a process that arises and passes away very quickly, and deals primarily with the processes of these mind movements that occur. It treats these phenomena, not in terms of their isolated connections, but in terms of their re-occurring patterns that shows that these processes always arise and pass away in exactly the same way: "Bhikkhus, what is dependent origination? 'With birth as condition aging-and-death come to be' - whether Tathagatas arise or not, that element stands, that structuredness of phenomena, that fixed determination of phenomena, specific conditionality. That a Tathagata awakens to and comprehends. Having awakened to it and comprehends it, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, reveals it, analyzes it, and clarifies it, saying : 'See, bhikkhus, with birth as condition aging-and-death come to be.' The reality in that, the undeludedness, invariability, specific conditionality - this, bhikkhus, is called dependent arising." (Taken from the Samyutta Nikaya Volume 1 pages 550 - 551, Sutta number 20 (10) Conditions. Translated by Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi) This is why in the Mahahatthipadopama sutta number 28, section 28, taken from the Majjhima Nikaya, he says "He who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma, he who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination." This is why the Buddha’s teachings are called "the Path of Awakening". The Buddha was not interested in abstract formulas devoid of real content; for him content is all-important. (All of his teachings can be understood clearly when the student begins to practice meditation and follows the instructions given in the suttas.) His teaching is concerned with a problem - the problem of suffering (dukkha) - and with the tasks of bringing suffering to an end. Dependent origination is introduced because it is extremely relevant to these concerns, maybe that should be put in stronger terms. It is not so relevant as it is indispensable. Dependent Arising defines the framework needed to understand the problem and also indicates the approach that must be taken if that problem is to be resolved. The suffering with which the Buddha’s teachings are concerned has a far deeper meaning than personal unhappiness, discontent, depression, or psychological stress. It includes these, of course, but these teachings go so much further beyond that. The problem in its fullest measure is the suffering of being trapped (of our own making) to the repeated rounds of birth and death. To gain liberation from all suffering, requires more than relief from ones ever-changing individual psychological manifestations. It requires nothing short of total liberation from this ceaseless cycle of birth and death. In order to end this continuous cycle, the conditions that cause suffering have to be eliminated; and to eliminate them it is necessary to know what they are, how they hold everything together, and what must be done to extinguish their causal force. Though the cycle of birth and death has no first point, no cause outside of itself, it does have a distinct structure, a set of internal conditions that keep itself in motion. The teaching of dependent origination discloses this set of conditions. It lays them out in an interconnecting sequence which makes it clear how existence repeatedly renews itself from within and how it will continue to do so into the future through the continued activation of these causes. Most importantly, however, dependent origination shows that the cycle can be stopped ! It traces the series of conditions to its simplest and most fundamental part (this is the second Noble Truth - The Cause of Suffering is Craving). Then it points out that "Craving" can be eliminated and that with its elimination the cycle of rebirths and its attendant suffering are brought to a halt. 38579 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Htoo, This is the second installment from my book it is a sutta that explains exactly what dependent origination is. Please remember that in the first installment I said that the way to get off of the wheel of samsara is by recognizing the Cause of suffering which is Craving. Craving always shows itself as a subtle tightness or tension that arises in both the mind and body. So when we follow the sutta instructions of tranquilizing the bodily and mental formations often, we are letting go of that craving. Even though it lasts for only a short period of time. Hope this is of some use to you. I have added some comments to help clarify things about these links. If you would like more clarification please don't hesitate to ask. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi P.S. I will have to wait until tomorrow to answer your other questions. It has been a long day and there is still much to do. So what exactly is dependent origination? In this sutta it is defined as spelled exactly and precisely. Nidanasmayutta 2 (2) Analysis of Dependent Origination Taken from the Samyutta Nikaya Volume 1, translated by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi Pages 534 - 536 At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you dependent origination and I will analyze it for you. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir," those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this: "And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness [comes to be]; with consciousness as condition, mentality and materiality [come to be]; with mentality and materiality as condition, the six sense bases [come to be]; with the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition, feeling [comes to be]; with feeling as condition, craving [comes to be]; with craving as condition, clinging [comes to be]; with clinging as condition, existence [comes to be]; with existence as condition, birth [comes to be]; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow lamentation, pain, grief and despair [comes to be]. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. "And what is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: This is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death. "And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent [into the womb], production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth. "And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence. "And what, bhikkhus, is clinging? There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and vows (rites and rituals), clinging to a doctrine of self. This is called clinging. (This includes all thinking, concepts, opinions and ideas that can cloud one’s mind because it distracts one away from seeing this as an impersonal process. Clinging can create a lot of stories about the craving and feeling which takes the meditator away from seeing the true nature of all reality -seeing this as an impersonal process (anatta) that is always changing (anicca), and this change causes suffering (dukkha). "And what, bhikkhus, is craving? There are these six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for tastes, craving for tactile objects, craving for mental phenomena. This is called craving. (craving manifests as a tightness or tension in both one’s body and mind. It is a subtle feeling that if ignored over time will actually become a hindrance to one’s progress and insights. Craving is the ‘I like it... I don’t like it mind’. It grabs onto the feeling and begins to make that feeling a part of a personal process, then when clinging arises it completes the task of making all thoughts, feelings, concepts and ideas seem to be ‘Me, Mine, I’.) "And what, bhikkhus, is feeling? These are the six classes of feeling: feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of mind-contact. This is called feeling. (Feeling comes in three basic forms - although they can be expanded greatly in number see sutta 59 Many Kinds of Feeling in the Majjhima Nikaya - they are pleasant feeling, painful feeling, and neither painful-nor-pleasant feeling) "And what, bhikkhus, is contact? There are these six classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact. This is called contact. "And what, bhikkhus, are the six sense bases? The eye base, the ear base, the nose base, the tongue base, the body base, and the mind base. These are the six sense bases. "And what, bhikkhus, is mentality/materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called mentality. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called materiality (this includes all of the physical sense doors). Thus this mentality/materiality are together called mentality/materiality. "And what, bhikkhus, is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness. This is called consciousness. "And what, bhikkhus, are the volitional formations? There are these three kinds of volitional formations: the bodily volitional formation, the verbal volitional formation, the mental volitional formation. "And what, bhikkhus, is ignorance? Not knowing suffering, not knowing the origin of suffering, not knowing the cessation of suffering, and not knowing the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance. "Thus, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition, volitional formation [come to be]; with volitional formation as condition, consciousness [comes to be]; with consciousness as condition, mentality/materiality [come to be]; with mentality/materiality as condition, the six sense bases [come to be]; with the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition, feeling [comes to be]; with feeling as condition, craving [comes to be]; with craving as condition, clinging [comes to be]; with clinging as condition, existence [comes to be]; with existence as condition, birth [comes to be]; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair [come to be]. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formation; with the cessation of volitional formations, comes the cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, comes the cessation of mentality/materiality; with the cessation of mentality/materiality, comes the cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, comes the cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, comes the cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, comes the cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, comes the cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, comes the cessation of existence, with the cessation of existence, comes the cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, comes the cessation of aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering." 38580 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/20/04 3:48:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I disagree. Aversion is not desire. Aversion (dosa) is dukkha, the > truth of suffering. Part of the logic of desire is aversion to a > state of want and part of the logic of aversion is desire for > deliverance from the unpleasant feeling of aversion. This is a matter > of logic and reasoning, whatever that is. There is an intimate > relation between aversion and desire but they are not the same. > > Larry > ===================== Yes, we disagree. I understand aversion to be exactly vibhava tanha, the desire to get rid of, a species of craving. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38581 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/20/04 6:44:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Yay! Thank you, Htoo, for pointing this out. Either "pa~n~natti" > are dhammas or there *are no such things* as pa~n~natti. > > J: > Yes, the second of these would be correct, I believe. Pannatti are not > paramattha dhammas (and indeed this would be one way of describing what is > meant by the term). > > H: > If there are such things, then as dhammas, they are either sankhata or > asankhata. There is, as you point out, Sarah, only one asankhata dhamma, > namely nibbana. This leaves the following alternatives, then: > 1) Pa~n~natti are sankhata dhammas, > 2) There are no such things as pa~n~natti. > > J: > Yes to your (2). While it can be said that dhammas ‘are’ (fleetingly, > when they arise), it cannot be said that pannatti ‘are’. > > H: > In case 1) pa~n~natti are impermanent. In case 2), a lot of folks > on DSG spend a lot of time talking about nonexistent things that > supposedly can be objects of consciousness. Each of these, namely a) > "pa~n~natti being impermanent", and b) "consciousness taking an object > that is not an object, for there is no such thing at all" should, I would > think, be unacceptable. > > J: > Correct. To my understanding, it is not appropriate to talk about > consciousness ‘taking’ pannatti as object, in the same sense that > consciousness can be said to ‘take’ a (previously arisen) dhamma as > object. Pannatti are mere creations of the mind. Hence they are object > of consciousness, without being ‘objects’ in any sense. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, Jon. So far we completely agree. As far as your last two sentences are concerned, I take them to mean that the so called pa~n~natti are mere imaginings of the mind, they are merely imagined. In actuality, there are no such things. The problem is one of language here. When we use a name, that already implies to us an alleged existent that is named, even when we use the name to *deny* that existence! For example, "Santa Claus doesn't exist" seems to be saying that the "property" of existence doesn't apply to Santa Claus, and yet the very referring to Santa Claus suggests the opposite! Actually, "Santa Claus doesn't exist" really means that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, and that would be a better way of stating it. Likewise, there are no such things as pa~n~natti, but when we use the term 'pa~n~natti', that usage suggests otherwise. ------------------------------------------------- > > H: > This all says to me that the topic of pa~n~natti is an incoherent > one, ill defined, not understood, and a distraction from the Dhamma. There > are thoughts arising and ceasing in the mind - *they* are sankhata > dhammas. But I have not a clue what pa~n~natti are supposed to be. > > J: > Pannatti are not supposed to ‘be’ anything. The term is merely a > designation for mere designations and concepts collectively, and does not > represent any thing. > > Hence, thinking (the moment of consciousness) ‘is’, but not its object > (‘thoughts’). > > None of this is readily apparent to us right now; indeed, the appearance > is otherwise. And I realise this goes against any held views of > phenomenalism ;-)). > --------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think it does. There is deuded appearance and there is undeluded appearance. A phenomenalism that doesn't countenance that is not a phenomenalism that I approve of. ---------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38582 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections hello KenH, Well said. Good reminders about no control. I like to hear this kind of talk often. mostly, our every day life is full of 'control' - at home, at work, on the road - ummmm, I sound like a control freak!, but you know what I mean, I hope. We are actively encouraged by society to be 'in control of ourselves and our behaviour', and on that conventional level, it's not such a bad thing. To really understand the no control aspect of life, is heaps more difficult - I need lots of reminders. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > .....snip..... > Thanks Mike, I like your choice of the word, "inevitable," although > I am sure it raised a few eyebrows. We worldlings think we have > control over our morality. We think we can choose to have wrong view > or we can choose to fly into a rage if that is what we want. But > what does that say about the Ariyans? A Sotapanna can't have wrong > view, an Anagami can't have ill will, and an Arahant can't have even > the tiniest bit of conceit. So we must think we have more control > than the Ariyans! > > That shows how ridiculous we are with our beliefs in control. We > really must learn to see 'conditionality everywhere and in all > things.' For that, we need more Abhidhamma study, not less (despite > what some of our DSG friends are telling us). And we need more > coaching from the arahant ancient commentators, not less! > > Kind regards, > Ken H 38583 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:55pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 54 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (a) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)] ***** Saññå, which can be translated as perception, recognition or remembrance, is another cetasika among the seven ‘universals’ which accompany every citta. Saññå accompanies every citta, there is no moment without saññå. Saññå experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies but it performs its own task: it ‘perceives’ or ‘recognizes’ the object and it ‘marks’ it so that it can be recognized again. The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 110) states about saññå: .…It has the characteristic of noting(1)and the function of recognizing .what has been previously noted. There is no such thing as perception .in the four planes of existence without the characteristic of noting. All .perceptions have the characteristic of noting. Of them, that perceiving .which knows by specialized knowledge has the function of recognizing .what has been noted previously. We may see this procedure when the .carpenter recognizes a piece of wood which he has marked by .specialized knowledge… *** (1) In Påli: sañjånåti, cognizing well. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38584 From: Andrew Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 0:18am Subject: Views and the Meditator Dear Group I would like to share with you the following quotation from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Introduction to his translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and its Commentaries - The All-Embracing Net of Views (BPS 1992 reprint p. 6): "... Views proceed from ignorance and blindness rather than from knowledge. They involve misinterpretations of experience stemming from subjective distortions of the actual experiential data. ... All the views dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two sources, reasoning and meditative experience. The fact that a great number, perhaps the majority, have their source in the experience of meditative attainments has significant implications for our understanding of the genetic process behind the fabrication of views. It suffices to caution us against the hasty generalization that speculative views take rise through a preference for theorisation over the more arduous task of practice. As our sutta shows, many of these views make their appearance only at the end of a prolonged course of meditation involving firm renunciation, intense devotion and keen contemplative zeal. For these views, the very basis of their formulation is a higher experience rather than the absence of one. That views of a metaphysical nature result from such endeavours indicates that they spring from a source more deeply grounded in the human mind even than the disposition to theorization. This source is the clinging to being ..." With best wishes Andrew 38585 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante, > Bhante: It is too bad that you feel this way it robs both of us from a deeper > understanding. As far as learning is concerned, I am sure it doesn't depend solely on us responding to one another's posts. :-) But because I heard that Sarah is busy this weekend, I think I will express my understanding of `panna' and find out if you will agree. Panna is of course, "understanding". There is I believe two distinct directions which panna can take and be developed depending on the object, though because they are in essence the same mental factor, these two can support each other. One type is the understanding of the danger in akusala rooted in dosa and lobha and the benefit of wholesome states of mind. This kind of panna however, can be developed on and on up to the level of the highest jhanas and yet have no clue about anatta. And as you know, this cannot eradicate defilements of any level, but only suppress them. The other direction which panna can take and this happens (excepting Pacceka Buddhas) only in a Buddha sasana, is seeing the danger in ignorance and wrong view. This type of panna is rightly called Right View. Only when this type of panna has been conditioned and appreciated, can the two types support each other. The first type on its own does not lead to the second type, but the latter does help to make the first type more developed and become parami even. As Buddhists, I think we should therefore be concerned primarily only with this second type. And as I have said, this panna can be conditioned only after hearing the Teachings, it makes sense that it develops in stages starting with intellectual understanding or `pariyatti'. Even here there are many degrees, for eg. between sutta maya panna and cinta maya panna. In any case, only with this can then the next level of panna be conditioned, which is practice or `patipatti'. And why is it called `practice', because what has been understood only intellectually is now directly seen and understood. And because in the beginning this is necessarily very weak, i.e. a moment followed by akusala as usual, it need further and further development such that chances of subsequent moments being seen, increases. And here too, it starts with a vague understanding of the visesa lakkhana, through development until the Tilakkhana is perceived directly with vipassana panna. And it is when sati and panna have been developed to sufficient degree with enough patipatti, do insight occur leading through the various stages, and culminating in realization or `pativedha'. However this development is not like one finishes and leaves the first level and moves on to the next. Pariyatti is important if not crucial all the way through, and patipatti is needed even for the ariyans. This said, I think we should know where our level of understanding is. I observe that many who call themselves Buddhists, esp. many who are born one, their understanding is only of the first type, namely that which sees the danger in akusala. Few really appreciate the value in Right View and are satisfied only to lead more happy and peaceful lives and aim for better rebirths. They aim to be `good persons' and therefore may keep strict Sila and practice Dana without any understanding. Others who know enough to see danger in the kilesas and therefore seek to be without them, may not have enough of panna to consider if the present moment is with or without understanding. These then may follow advices and instruction on methods of practice which are future projected, not realizing that `self' is being reinforced and that the cause does not reflect the goal, which should be complete detachment from self. As I was saying to KK and on Triplegem, I find the D.O. really very difficult to grasp intellectually. My understanding of nama and rupa is yet only intellectual, and I think it is important to keep this in mind. Because otherwise when reading about more complex relations, I might be lured into trying to understand those in experience and engage in wrong practices. And because in such a case I would be motivated by avijja and lobha, illusion of result will most likely happen. This is why I feel motivated to go back to the basics and this means reading and listening. Sometimes there may be trying to catch realities, but sati can come in and remind that this is all just "thinking". And I believe this is crucial and relates to the other important distinction to be made, i.e. between concept and reality. This is already too long, so I will end here. Look forward to any comments. Metta, Sukin 38586 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: Okay, Jon. So far we completely agree. As far as your last two sentences are concerned, I take them to mean that the so called pa~n~natti are mere imaginings of the mind, they are merely imagined. In actuality, there are no such things. Jon: Yes, that’s how I understand it. Howard: The problem is one of language here. When we use a name, that already implies to us an alleged existent that is named, even when we use the name to *deny* that existence! For example, "Santa Claus doesn't exist" seems to be saying that the "property" of existence doesn't apply to Santa Claus, and yet the very referring to Santa Claus suggests the opposite! Actually, "Santa Claus doesn't exist" really means that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, and that would be a better way of stating it. Likewise, there are no such things as pa~n~natti, but when we use the term 'pa~n~natti', that usage suggests otherwise. Jon: Yes, it's interesting to note that when you and I talk about Santa Clause not existing no such problem arises, whereas it might well do in the case of young children. A similar situation occurs in our reading of the suttas. Speech between the Buddha and those ready for enlightenment is likely to be in terms that require further spelling out for those of us who are not at that same level of understanding. Jon 38587 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > Bhante* > > I think you are not really understanding what I am referring to. In > the 'Chachakka Sutta" #148 in the Majjhima Nikaya (The Six Sets of Six) > it gives a very clear and precise description of six of the links of > Dependent origination that is very deep and detailed. And when one > compares this with the sutta that I sent to you it agrees completely. Now > if you were to take the Anapanasati Sutta (#118 of the Majjhima Nikaya) > and look at the phrase " He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing > the bodily formations'; he trains thus, 'I shall breathe out experiencing.... Now > if you will look at the instructions given by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw or > the Visuddhi Magga, do you see these instructions given? =========== Dear venerable Vimalaramsi, Buddhaghosa has given a commentary on the Anapanasati sutta and I would say it takes clear account of the various factors explained by teh Buddha. I cannot see why you don't think so? As for the Visuddhimagga , the detailed traeatment of Dependent origination is beautiful and sublime IMO. ============================== If not then the > practice is not the same as the above mentioned sutta and can not > possibly lead to the same end results. Can you see this? ========= What I can't see is where you find any shortcomings in the Visuddhmagga or commentaries? Rather than being lacking the commentaries add detail and explicate the pithy sayings in the suttas. ===================================== > I take that to > mean that simply seeing the three characteristics is not enough and that > the person has not experienced Nibbana when they do see these > characteristics. Why? Because that person who only has seen the three > characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what > these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding > the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are > referring to! ================ Seeing into the Tilakkhana is synonymous with seeing into conditionality, they are intimately connected. I do think some meditation technique exponents have a limited understanding of this and actually mistake thinking about anatta, dukkha as being direct experience. http://www.vipassana.info/j.htm#277279 As it says in the Dhammapada: Verse 277. "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha,(i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. Verse 278. "All conditioned phenomena are dukkha"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. ============================= And the insight gained into the true nature of the links > of dependent origination are the insights that do lead to Nibbana. These > are truly the deepest insights a person can have. Venerable Sariputta > became a sotapanna by just hearing in a general way about dependent > origination. Doesn't that say something about the importance of these > insights and their depth? =========== As I said it is not possible to separate true insight into anatta from insight into conditionality. ========== > > Again I will ask where did you get the idea that Venerable Sariputta > was going into and out of the jhanas while he was fanning the Buddha? I > have never read that at all. I have read that the insights that he got > while fanning the Buddha were that the Buddha wasn't even attached to the > Dhamma and this was the insight that allowed Venerable Sariputta to let > go and then he became an arahat. I have never read that Venerable > Sariputta was experiencing the jhanas while this occurred. And of course, > if it did happen this way, I have never heard of it, it may be somewhere > in the suttas but I never ran across it. Could you please show me where > this is found? =========== It is in the Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha. If you have Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the Majjhima Nikaya he gives a short note (1046) p1315 about Anupadadhammavipassana. The commentary explains that sariputta attained arahantship while fanning the Buddha and listening to the Buddha teach venerable Dighanaka. The Anupada sutta is actually explaining the way Sariputta attained during this time. As we see he attained the various rupa and arupa jhanas but was so skilled in vipassana that he could understand the different mental factors in jhana by insight after coming out of each jhana.?@"He emerged mindful from that attainment. having doen so he contemplated the past states, which had ceased and changed thus: So indedd these states not having been come into being; having been they vanish" Sometimes the suttas are terse and do not always mention that one must have left the jhana before such insght can arise. It is assumed the listener knows this. In the visuddhimagga there are explanations of just how fast one who has mastery of jhana is with regard to entering and exiting. Once mara tried to rain embers on the Giribhandavahana offering and a monk so quickly entered 4th jhana and made a covering to protect everyone before the embers could touch. Visuddhimagga X11, 10. Thus Sariputta was fanning the Buddha, listening to dhamma, entering and exiting variious jhanas, and developing insight culminating in arahantship, all in the space of a few minutes. He had the parami to do this. With respect Robertk 38588 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hello Larry, Howard, and all > I disagree. Aversion is not desire. Aversion (dosa) is dukkha, the > truth of suffering. Part of the logic of desire is aversion to a > state of want and part of the logic of aversion is desire for > deliverance from the unpleasant feeling of aversion. This is a matter > of logic and reasoning, whatever that is. There is an intimate > relation between aversion and desire but they are not the same. Today in a small notebook I carry around I found "you cannot possibly have aversion if you don't have attachment". Probably from one of Nina's books. We know that.there cannot be aversion rooted cittas without delusion (moha) rooted cittas. But I think the "you cannot possibly have aversion without attachment" might be referring to the way aversion derives from our attachment to certain states. I think of calm. Today walking in the park, there was a loudspeaker that annoyed me. That's because I am so attached to the notion of having peace and quiet in the park. That lobha was behind the aversion. If I weren't attached to peace and quiet, I wouldn't be so averse to noise. There's not that much that is intrinsically irritating about a noisy loudspeaker. It is our desire for peace and quiet that brings about the aversion in this case? Last week I posted about the man I thought was making a tooth-sucking sound on the train. In that case my aversion was clearly rooted in ignorance because the sound was something entirely different but also there was attachment involved because I wanted my peace and quiet on the train. Tonight I was cranky with my wife about having to wash the dishes because I am tired after a long day. Does my aversion to being tired comes from attachment to feeling energetic? I wonder how much intrinsic unpleasantness there is in being tired and how much of my aversion simply comes from attachment to feeling perky? I wonder how much intrinsic suffering there is in having a cold, and how much of the aversion comes from attachment to feeling energetic and healthy? Just some sleepy thoughts. Metta, Phil . 38589 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Venerable Bhante and dear Htoo, Many points are raised by Htoo but I want to touch on just a few points, with respect. I shall not say much on D.O. because this can only be understood when one clearly understands dhamma at this very moment and I do not. op 20-11-2004 21:24 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo:quotes Bhante: When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true > eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual > knowledge at all. N:Only magga-citta eradicates, and it directly experiences nibbana, there is no thinking, no intellectual knowledge. Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta succeeds this immediately in the same process. That is the meaning of without delay, akaalika. Phala-citta does not eradicate defilements, because these have been eradicated already in accordance with the stage of enlightenment (there are four stages) at the moment of magga-citta. > Bhante quote: > > *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of > jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three > characteristics. > > Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where > does it describe it in the suttas? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This makes much sense. N: This is not a new teaching, it is explained by Buddhaghosa in the commentaries which were also rehearsed at the Councils, from the first Council on. A very ancient teaching. Here some Pali can help. Jayati: it can mean: contemplating and also burning away, but this is from another stem. The Buddha said: meditate (or contemplate), here are the roots of the trees. The Commentary then gives the explanation of the two meanings of jhana (from jhayati). The teaching of insight was exclusively ther Buddha's teaching, but rupa-jhana and arupajhana was also taught by other teachers. The suttas often refer to the second meaning of jhana, contemplating or realizing the three characteristics. Kindred Sayings III, Middle Fifty, Ch 4, §88, Assaji. Assaji was too sick to develop mindfulness of breathing and attain jhana. The Buddha asked him: Is body permanent or impermanent? He asked the same as to the other khandhas. We read: Thus, one can attain arahatship with this understanding. We read time and again that the Buddha referred to the three characteristics which have to be realized. Dear Htoo, you speak about citta nyama, the natural course of the order of cittas, not even a Buddha can change. I am always glad to hear this, it gives me a happy feeling. The Buddha himself paid respect to the Dhamma, this is in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes (III, 14, Wheel 155-158,transl. by Ven. Nyanaponika), Dhamma, the coregent. A simile is used of a world ruler who relies on the Law of righteousness, the dhamma. Htoo explained that no words are needed when there is insight. I think that a definition of pañña may not help enough. We first have to know what ignorance is: avijja, the first link of the DO. It does not know the true nature of what appears now, like seeing, hearing or thinking. We see people and take them for persons who are lasting. Seeing sees visible object that falls away immediately, that is impermanent. Pañña understands what appears now and no words are needed. It has to be gradually developed so that it becomes one's own understanding. One does not have to follow someone else. What does pañña understand? Any dhamma appearing now, like seeing, hearing, etc. The suttas are full of this. Perhaps the word vipassana is not used as often as jhana, but, satipatthana is implied in each and every sutta. Satipatthana is the development of understanding of nama and rupa. As Bhante says: calm and insight are together. Whenever the Buddha speaks about jhana also satipatthana is implied. Moreover, when insight penetrates the three characteristics of realities, there is momentary concentration, khanika samadhi. When nibbana is experienced the concentration is as strong as the first jhana. Concentration is a factor of the eightfold Path, but it has to accompany right understanding of the eightfold Path. May the light of pañña illumonate the present object and pierce through the black curtain of ignorance, with respect and all good wishes, Nina. 38590 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Larry, op 20-11-2004 20:28 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > When you listen to beautiful music(1) like (lobha) arises with > pleasant feeling.... snip, snip (I agree). > L: This is not the case with want (lobha). Like and want are completely > different. N: I see it different. They are shades of lobha cetasika. But we may use the word want in a different sense. I see wanting as wishing to have something. L: Even if we are starving want is not > unpleasant. Is this how you understand your experience? N: It does not ring a bell! > ------------------------- > Note 1. What is beautiful varies from person to person and time to > time and depends on what we like. N: Some things are intrinsically pleasant, but see previous discussions, also with Rob M. L: Note 2. Notice I am not saying relaxation itself is a > feeling. "Feeling" is a word that can refer to either nama or rupa. N: Feeling is always nama, it experiences something. L: Body-door consciousness feels hardness with unpleasant feeling. N: It depends on the degree of hardness. Hard to tell, very often we do not know. it is only one moment of vipakacitta. L:Body-door consciousness accompanied by pleasant feeling cognizes the > rupa that is conventionally called relaxation of the body. N: Body-door consciousness can only experience tangivle object, not feeling. It is best not to mix in conventional terms. > L: Note 4. Some contractions of the body are kamma produced, temperature > produced, or nutriment produced. When we are truly hungry there is > insufficient nutriment and one of these means of production produces > bodily contractions that are cognized with body-door consciousness > accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Dependent on that, desire arises. > Sometimes, when we want something badly enough, consciousness > produced contractions arise that are very similar to the contractions > of hunger. These contractions arise _after_ the desire. Contractions > can be very tiring. That is why when we travel we become unusually > tired. We want to go. N: I have trouble with these examples. Conventional terms confuse me when talking about body-consciousness that can experience rupas. I feel it is better to be aware without naming and reasoning. Nina. 38591 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, op 21-11-2004 02:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Hi Htoo, > > How can javana cittas accumulate? They are impermanent. It makes sense > to me that javana cittas are remembered or become habitual. Doesn't that > mean that javana cittas accumulate as concepts? If so, wouldn't that > mean that all javana cittas that are conditioned by accumulations > (ayuhana) are conditioned by concepts? N: All wholesome and unwholesome inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment. Javana citta and each citta falls away to be succeeded by the next one. All accumulations of all lives are contained in each citta. Why are we born with different characters, different inclinations, different tendencies? Because of this condition that is natural strong dependence condition. When we are angry, the anger falls away with the citta, but anger continues as a latent tendency. If there were no accumulation how could there be latent tendencies, anusayas, lying dormant in each citta. Nina. 38592 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi TG and Howard, Sure, when we have unpleasant feeling or experience an unpleasant object craving arises which wants unhappiness to stop. It is conditioned by unhappiness, but not accompanied by it at the same time. op 20-11-2004 21:16 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: Howard: > This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by > (or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see it, > aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for > dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. T.G; I agree. In the 12 Fold Chain, the Buddha talks about the three types of > feelings and says they are a condition for three types of cravings. As far as > I'm concerned it works this way... snip... > 2) If there is an unpleasurable feeling, craving for the "discontinuance" of > that unpleasurableness arises. > (This is normally considered the craving for non-Being...but I see it as more > fundamentally -- the craving for the "non-being" or discontinuance of > unpleasurableness. 38593 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi RobM My discussin with Dan D was an offshoot over the issue whether people outside the dispensation is able to develop panna. It is not about people who are in the path doing kusala actions :). Dan D, as I think what he thought that selfless acts by non-Buddhist practitioners can be basis of developing panna and also said that some of them are better than Buddhists themselves in the selfless acts (that is quite true :) during our time). So I am giving information from the text that five precepts can also be done by non-practitioners of Buddhism but that does not associated with panna. Similarly my opinion and not the text as kusala can arise without panna, compassion and loving kindness can arise without any association with panna. > Clearly, one is not going to progress spiritually without > performing deeds from the bhavana group. In fact, humans and lower devas with life-continuum mental states with two roots (no panna root), cannot achive jhana or sotapanna stage; they can perform deeds from the bhavana group, but they will not achieve jhana or sotapanna. Thats great - I hope Dan D saw you statement there :) Ken O p.s. So when are coming to Singapore :). Please bring me a copy of your book the reason behind the Buddha smile. 38594 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi, Andrew and all - In a message dated 11/21/04 3:18:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > > Dear Group > > I would like to share with you the following quotation from Bhikkhu > Bodhi's Introduction to his translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and > its Commentaries - The All-Embracing Net of Views (BPS 1992 reprint > p. 6): > > "... Views proceed from ignorance and blindness rather than from > knowledge. They involve misinterpretations of experience stemming > from subjective distortions of the actual experiential data. > ... > All the views dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two > sources, reasoning and meditative experience. The fact that a great > number, perhaps the majority, have their source in the experience of > meditative attainments has significant implications for our > understanding of the genetic process behind the fabrication of views. > It suffices to caution us against the hasty generalization that > speculative views take rise through a preference for theorisation > over the more arduous task of practice. As our sutta shows, many of > these views make their appearance only at the end of a prolonged > course of meditation involving firm renunciation, intense devotion > and keen contemplative zeal. For these views, the very basis of > their formulation is a higher experience rather than the absence of > one. That views of a metaphysical nature result from such endeavours > indicates that they spring from a source more deeply grounded in the > human mind even than the disposition to theorization. This source is > the clinging to being ..." > > With best wishes > Andrew > > ============================ So, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote, almost correctly, I believe "All the views dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two sources, reasoning and meditative experience." What he didn't mention were the other sources given in the Kalama Sutta such as the following: reports and legends, logical conjecture and analogical inference, scripture and authority. But putting these additional items aside, and putting aside that scripture and authority include both Sutta Pitaka, Abhidhamma, the commentaries, and all other records and interpretations of the Buddha's teaching (!), and just considering what Bhikkhu Bodhi gave, namely reasoning and meditative experience, I would like to ask the good folks here what they intend to give up, meditating or thinking or both!! ;-) With metta, Howard - who must now no longer meditate, no longer think, and for that matter, because of the scripture and authority problems, no longer study!! ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38595 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Hi, Robert (and Bhante) - In a message dated 11/21/04 6:40:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > It is in the Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha. If you have Bhikku Bodhi's > translation of the Majjhima Nikaya he gives a short note (1046) > p1315 about Anupadadhammavipassana. The commentary explains that > sariputta attained arahantship while fanning the Buddha and > listening to the Buddha teach venerable Dighanaka. > The Anupada sutta is actually explaining the way Sariputta attained > during this time. As we see he attained the various rupa and arupa > jhanas but was so skilled in vipassana that he could understand the > different mental factors in jhana by insight after coming out of > each jhana.?@"He emerged mindful from that attainment. having doen > so he contemplated the past states, which had ceased and changed > thus: So indedd these states not having been come into being; having > been they vanish" > ========================= Robert, the attempted solution you are giving here is interesting, but the above quote you give in support of it is a bit problematical, because that material is given in the Anupada Sutta only with regard to the 8th and 9th jhanas, jhanas in which invesigation of dhammas is likely impossible. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38596 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi Andrew and Howard That is B Bodhi personal opinion. Let us be differentiate between them. Everything we talk about mediation, there is also the mention of going to seclusion, under the tree - these are enivornment conditions :). When it was mention about in mindfullness sutta, there is always this small little statement a lot of people do not notice, even before he practise mindulness <>, so there is already a certain level of training of this monks, because they are already established in mindfullness. Then after that <> He discerns :) what is discerns, mean a clear comprehension means a certain level of development of wisdom. So he must have right environment conditions, a certain level of sati and panna even before he embarks on the journey to meditation. There is no doubt there is meditation mentioned in the suttas and visudd, but the question is, is it right for us or does it appear to be seen as it is :). Nonetheless, everyone have different accumulations :) Ken O 38597 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/21/04 9:40:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi TG and Howard, > Sure, when we have unpleasant feeling or experience an unpleasant object > craving arises which wants unhappiness to stop. It is conditioned by > unhappiness, but not accompanied by it at the same time. > op 20-11-2004 21:16 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > Howard: > >This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by > >(or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see > it, > >aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for > >dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. > > ===================== When I wrote "Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by (or followed by) aversion," I actually personally believed "is followed by" to be correct, but I put that in parentheses and emphasized "accompanied by," which I did not believe to actually be the case, because of fear that there were likely others here who would disagree with "is followed by," and that would create a distraction that would sidetrack the discussion from my main point that aversion is a species of tanha. In retrospect, I should have been more honest in my presentation. Pragmatics should not supersede truthfulness. My apologies. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38598 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi, Ken (and Andrew) - In a message dated 11/21/04 10:50:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > Hi Andrew and Howard > > That is B Bodhi personal opinion. Let us be differentiate between > them. Everything we talk about mediation, there is also the mention > of going to seclusion, under the tree - these are enivornment > conditions :). When it was mention about in mindfullness sutta, > there is always this small little statement a lot of people do not > notice, even before he practise mindulness < and setting mindfulness to the fore>>, so there is already a certain > level of training of this monks, because they are already established > in mindfullness. Then after that < that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that > he is breathing out long.>> He discerns :) what is discerns, mean a > clear comprehension means a certain level of development of wisdom. > So he must have right environment conditions, a certain level of sati > and panna even before he embarks on the journey to meditation. There > is no doubt there is meditation mentioned in the suttas and visudd, > but the question is, is it right for us or does it appear to be seen > as it is :). Nonetheless, everyone have different accumulations :) > > > > Ken O > ======================= Well, of course, what I wrote was largely tongue-in-cheek. It is indeed a fact that all sorts of experience, including all the items I mentioned in my post, are subject to misinterpretation due to our defilements. If we were to take that fact to be all-determinative, then we would just give up! Certainly the Buddha didn't recommend that. We must begin where we are, mired in delusion, and with many, many false starts, and many sidetrips down wrong paths, we, by long and determined effort, will return to the main road, and progress on our journey. One additional point: The aspect of meditation that lends itself most to misinterpretation and wrong views (though the Dhamma, and wise friends, can protect against such misinterpretation), is traditional, pre-Buddhist absorptive meditation. It would be easy, for example, for one to derive belief in Brahman/atman from the bases of infinite space and infinite consciousness, and, especially, from a shuttling between the 2nd jhana and these, for then one experiences what could be taken to be infinite being, consciousness, and joy, and one could develop the Vedantic view of "Satchitananda" (an ultimate reality that is describable as pure being, consciousness, and joy - Nirguna Brahman). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38599 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Dan D I have read the two suttas, and in the suttas, Buddha said right view of two folds, one that is mundane and the other supramundane. I did not see him mentioning that about conceptual right view. I also read the introduction by Ven B Bodhi, he used the word conceptual right view - that is his view and not what Buddha says in sutta and also not in any Abhidhamma Text that I have read. To me there are only two kind of right views. The questions is whether listening and studying are developing mundane right view. One sutta quote will make this clearer MN 70 (Kitagiri Sutta) <> Ken O p.s. I always careful in reading Ven B Bodhi translation as at times he does put his personal opinion