38600 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations N: All wholesome and unwholesome inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment. Javana citta and each citta falls away to be succeeded by the next one. All accumulations of all lives are contained in each citta. Why are we born with different characters, different inclinations, different tendencies? Because of this condition that is natural strong dependence condition. When we are angry, the anger falls away with the citta, but anger continues as a latent tendency. If there were no accumulation how could there be latent tendencies, anusayas, lying dormant in each citta. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Thanks for your explanation to Larry. All are clear. The wheel tracks always follow the footprints of animals who carry the cart. Like that any citta is followed by invisible, latent tendencies that are accumulated from former and former citta as upanissaya paccaya. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38601 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: Dhamma Greetings Htoo, This is the second installment from my book it is a sutta that explains exactly what dependent origination is. Please remember that in the first installment I said that the way to get off of the wheel of samsara is by recognizing the Cause of suffering which is Craving. Craving always shows itself as a subtle tightness or tension that arises in both the mind and body. Snip..out all.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, As before you copy and paste the whole mass without explaining anything. Can the whole mass be seen at the time of magga cittas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Paticcasamuppada 1. avijjaa paccayaa ---> sankharaa 2. sankhara paccayaa ---> vinnanaa 3. vinnana paccayaa ---> nama-rupam 4. nama-rupa paccayaa ---> sallaayatanaa 5. sallaayatana paccaya--> phasso 6. phassa paccayaa ---> vedanaa 7. vedana paccayaa ---> tanhaa 8. tanha paccayaa ---> upadana 9. upadana paccayaa ---> bhavo 10. bhava paccayaa ---> jaati 11. jaati paccaya --->[soka,parideva,dukkha,domanassa,upayasa] 12. jara/ marana If a deva is born right now and dies now, there is no time to get old like description for human beings' oldness like gray hair, loosening teeth, laxed skin etc etc. DO is not confined to human realm. DO is concerned with anyone. In numder 12 link, jara as you describe does not work for other cases. But jara does occur. More surer is death. After birth, death is ready. Sorrow, lamentation, physical pain, mental pain, despair, separation suffering, association suffering, unobtainability suffering are not ekam dhamma or not inevitable dhamma to happen. Leaving infanthood, there are some who never cry out loud. These dukkha are anekam dhamma. These are not inevitable things. But death is inevitable. 1. avijja nirodho ---> sankharaa nirodho 2. ,,,, pa,,,,pa,,,,pa,,,pa,,, ...12. nirodho. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38602 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:07am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 54 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (a) Sarah wrote: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)] ***** Saññå, which can be translated as perception, recognition or remembrance, is another cetasika among the seven `universals' which accompany every citta. Saññå accompanies every citta, ..snip...carpenter recognizes a piece of wood which he has marked by .specialized knowledge… *** (1) In Påli: sañjånåti, cognizing well. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No question for this piece. No comment for this piece as it is already perfect. There is no other view as I think we are holding the same view. Sanna is important and it is preached as a separate khandha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38603 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Nina, Just two comments. N: "N: Feeling is always nama, it experiences something." L: What I had in mind is that the word "feeling" can mean touching or vedana. This can be confusing when talking about body-door experience. Similarly, the word "taste" can be a noun or verb, one sense referring to a rupa and the other case referring to taste consciousness (taste a taste). N: "I have trouble with these examples. Conventional terms confuse me when talking about body-consciousness that can experience rupas. I feel it is better to be aware without naming and reasoning." L: I agree it is better to just be aware but I think you can bring your own experience into the discussion even if it can't be fully articulated. Otherwise these concepts have no meaning. Larry 38604 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Nina wrote: Venerable Bhante and dear Htoo, Many points are raised by Htoo but I want to touch on just a few points,with respect. I shall not say much on D.O. because this can only be understood when one clearly understands dhamma at this very moment and I do not. op 20-11-2004 21:24 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo:quotes Bhante: > When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true > > eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual > > knowledge at all. N:Only magga-citta eradicates, and it directly experiences nibbana, there is no thinking, no intellectual knowledge. Fruition- consciousness, phala-citta succeeds this immediately in the same process. ..snip.. ..Dear Htoo, you speak about citta nyama, the natural course of the order of cittas, not even a Buddha can change. I am always glad to hear this, it gives me a happy feeling. The Buddha himself paid respect to the Dhamma,this is in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes (III, 14, Wheel 155-158,transl. by Ven. Nyanaponika), Dhamma, the coregent. ..snip.. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante, Nina and All, The Buddha is the Supreme One. Who would The Buddha worship? No one. But there is a mudra called dhammapujaa mudra. The Buddha is holding his palms together making lotus in the worshipping position. This is to reveal how The Dhamma should be taken. Cittas happen according to citta niyama and even The Buddha cannot change this niyama. :-) Once I read at a Group saying that 'The Buddha can control rupa'. :-) I felt strange to see such a message. Even at the time of yamaka patihariya, The Buddha is not controling anything at all. To show up water and fire at the same time needs to change water kasina and fire kasina to and fro. In between these changing The Buddha takes 2 bhavanga cittas. Even Moggallana cannot do such a fast speed. No savaka can excel The Buddha. As The Buddha is in jhana, jhana cittaja rupas arise. This is not controlling at all. If they can be controlled then they are not anatta at least for The Buddha. But this is not the case. There is no exception. When Mara approached The Buddha and asked for releasing of Ayusankhara ( that is Mara advised The Buddha it was the time that The Buddha should die ), The Buddha told Ananda that Bhagava can live longer even aeons. But Ananda did not give any comment or ask The Buddha to live long. The Buddha told Mara, it was time. Even if The Buddha stayed longer than lifespan permitted, citta niyama never goes wrong. With respect, Htoo Naing 38605 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Nina, N: "If there were no accumulation how could there be latent tendencies, anusayas, lying dormant in each citta." L: I am not saying there are no accumulations. I am just saying accumulations are memory, habit, concept. There is no "reality" called accumulation. If you want to find accumulation in citta process you have to look at tadarammana and votthapana cittas. The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. The functioning of these two cittas depends heavily (but not solely) on sanna cetasika. Larry 38606 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your answers. I don't see how dream images are not memories or how dream javanas are not memories. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, memories have to be define here. Dream images are pannatta. Dream javanas are cittas. Both are not memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: What is a memory? If sanna remembers a sign (nimitta), then that sign is a memory, isn't it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. It is not. Nimitta or sign is nimitta panatta and it is concept. Not memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If sanna perceives signs then sanna perceives concepts. Isn't this the same as saying sanna creates (conditions) concepts? Isn't a dream image a sign remembered by sanna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Sanna does not create any concept. But sanna can cognises concept as concept. Yes. A dream image is a sign remembered by sanna. But dream is not memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: How can javana cittas accumulate? They are impermanent. It makes sense to me that javana cittas are remembered or become habitual. Doesn't that mean that javana cittas accumulate as concepts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nina has explained this. Thanks Nina. No javana cittas do not accumulate concepts but other latencies. Concept is not an ultimate reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If so, wouldn't that mean that all javana cittas that are conditioned by accumulations(ayuhana) are conditioned by concepts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Not that case. Not all javana cittas. But some javana cittas can be conditioned by concepts in the way of arammana paccaya and arammanadhipati paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If concept is not dukkha then dream is nibbana. Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Concept is not dukkha. And concept is not nibbana. And dream is not nibbana. Pannatta does not arise. Nibbana does not arise. Pannatta does not fall away. Nibbana does not fall away. But nibbana exists while pannatta does not exist from the start. Pannatta is not an ultimate reality. But nibbana is an ultimate reality. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38607 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:00am Subject: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Htoo, I've been thinking that concept is dukkha as long as it is an object of desire. Desire is the cause of dukkha. So whatever causes desire is dukkha and, as object, concept causes desire by object condition. What do you think? Larry 38608 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Htoo, What is memory? If you say there is no memory then you are saying memory is concept. Dream is concept. Memory is concept. Dream is memory. Larry 38609 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 130 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 25 beautiful mental factors or 25 sobhana cetasikas. Among them 19 cetasikas are called sabbaasobhana sadharana cetasikas or universal beautiful cetasikas because these 19 cetasikas always arise with each and every of sobhana cittas which are 59 or 91. 59 sobhana cittas are 24 kama sobhana cittas, 15 rupa sobhana cittas, 12 arupa sobhana cittas, and 8 lokuttara sobhana cittas altogether 24 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 59 in case of 89 total cittas. If cittas are calculated as 121 cittas because of jhanas then 24 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 91 cittas of 121 cittas are sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. All these cittas are always accompanied by 19 cetasikas and these 19 cetasikas are called sabbaa sobhana citta sadharana cetasikas. In cetasika portion these 19 cittas are presented as 2 forces of the king citta after making saddha cetasika as in charge of both forces. To repeat, in arm force saddha is general, sati is secretary, hiri and ottappa are right and left wing leiutinant-general and 6 cetasikas for citta namely cittapassaddhi, cittalahuta, cittamuduta, cittakammannata, cittapagunnata, and cittujukata are soldiers of the arm force. In navy again saddha is the admiral, tatramajjhattata is secretary, alobha and adosa are right and left wing rear-admiral and 6 cetasikas of all associated cetasikas namely kayapassaddhi, kayalahuta, kayamuduta, kayakammannata, kayapagunnata, and kayujikata are all followers. These 2 forces always guard the king sobhana cittas ( 59 or 91 cittas ). That is 19 cetasikas always arise each and every of these 59 sobhana cittas or 91 sobhana cittas. If any component of these 19 cetasikas is left out then other cetasikas cannot arise and sobhana cittas do not arise. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38610 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:16am Subject: Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I've been thinking that concept is dukkha as long as it is an object > of desire. Desire is the cause of dukkha. So whatever causes desire > is dukkha and, as object, concept causes desire by object condition. > What do you think? > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Concept or pannatta is not dukkha. Dukkha is citta. Dukkha is cetasika. Dukkha is rupa. All conditioned dhamma are dukkha. Actually cittas that see pannatta as their object is dukkha. Pannatta itself is not dukkha at all as it does not exist as ultimate reality. Desire is strictly speaking not dukkha as it is not dukkha sacca but it is samudaya sacca. Desire is the cause of dukkha, yes, this is right. But pannatta even though it may cause desire is not dukkha. Dukkha reside in citta with desire. I will repeat citta is dukkha, cetasika is dukkha, rupa is dukkha [some exceptions: magga cittas and phala cittas are not dukkha as are their accompanying cetasikas]. But pannatta is not dukkha. Nibbana is not dukkha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38611 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > What is memory? If you say there is no memory then you are saying > memory is concept. Dream is concept. Memory is concept. Dream is > memory. > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, I said we need to define memory. Memory that I told you is conventional word that we understand. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38612 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi. For now I am mostly just reading as I am traveling with very little time to respond. But concerning perspective, I just wanted to add here: Yes. Stepping back into the "Impersonal ( Anatta) Perspective" changes everything and panna begins to more rapidly develop! Leaving the I,ME,MY, MINE view behind! Embracing the absence of the "personal" ........ :-) KK ericlonline wrote: Hey Sarah, E> Please consider this. Hold to the 'I AM' thought/feeling. > You will see what you are not as juxtaposed to this > I AM. Relaxing and insight will come of its own accord > as you will easily quit grasping at objects. .... S> Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit grasping here? I Only then can the conceit I AM dissolve as it will be seen that it is superflous. PEACE E 38613 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Htoo, May I butt in here. With much respect, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Also, because the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta14 (4) Ascetics and Brahmins of the Samyutta Nikaya) and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bhante quoted 'the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta 14 (4) SN )'. May I ask you which of 'the Buddha 's words say these'; please provide the original Pali and their meanings? *************** Bhante: If you would read this sutta closely you would be able to see that I did paraphrase the above statement. But this meaning is very clear in this sutta. If you want the original Pali may I ask you to look them up for yourself as I have very few resources with Pali texts and I live in the forests of Missouri, so getting these is somewhat difficult. But I am sure you have the resources and time to look them up for yourself. ****************** May I ask 'what are the links of D.O'? *************** Bhante: I have sent the sutta that describes all of the links. Please look at that for the definitions. ______________________ May I ask you whether all 12 links are seen at a single moment? ****************** Bhante From a meditators view no they do not happen all in a single moment they arise and pass away very rapidly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: the Buddha went on to say that if one does not see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, they will not attain Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Which part of the Sutta say these? *************** In the sutta 14 (4) SN it says and I will quote this from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation: "They do not understand aging-and-death, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to the cessation..... These I do not consider to be ascetics among ascetics or Brahmins among Brahmins, and these venerable ones DO NOT, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, in this very life enter and dwell in the goal of asceticism or the goal of Brahminhood {Nibbana}. This very plainly says that the realization and understanding of the links of dependent origination through the Noble Truths is the necessary observations to attain the highest goal Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: So to me the seeing of the three characteristics by themselves doesn't lead to deep understanding or Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is difference. Seeing of tilakkhana is done by kamavacara mahakusala cittas while seeing of nibbana is done my magga cittas and phala cittas. Seeing tilakkhana does lead to Nibbana. No one saw tilakkhana before arising of The Buddha. The Buddha first saw it and this led Him to Nibbana. ************** Yes, it is important to see these three characteristics but in the context of the arising and passing away of the links of dependent origination. Not just by themselves. And as far as seeing impermanence there have been many western philosophers who have had that insight. Like never being able to step in the same river twice. Which was observed at roughly the same time as when the Buddha was living. But this insight about impermanence is not by itself enough to bring the deeper understanding of dependent origination. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Why? Because that is what the Buddha said and through direct experience of seeing these three characteristics alone, is not enough to actually experience the deepest kinds of insights. (in my opinion). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why not enough? ********* Bhante: Because one doesn't see the links of dependent origination if they are only looking at the characteristics and this is why these insights into anicca, dukkha, and anatta by themselves are NOT deep enough to gain true understanding of existence. The process of D.O. must be seen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Now lets take a look at the Bodhisatta's meditation experiences before he became awakened. He practiced with two different meditation teachers who were teaching forms of one-pointed absorption concentration and the Buddha did experience the realms of Nothingness and the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. But he was not satisfied with these types of absorption attainments. Why? Because he felt that they did not lead to the final release from the wheel of samsara. These teachers taught the Bodhisatta absorption concentration because that was all that was known at that time. So the Bodhisatta went off by himself to investigate and experiment for himself. At that time he was already one of the most advanced meditators in the area. Now what could he have seen that wasn't leading to the final release from samsara? He spent much time thinking and pondering on aging-and-death (taken from #10 (10) Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage in the Samyutta Nikaya). "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: 'Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and it is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Contemplation on these were true. But at magga kala, may I ask who see D.O? ***** Bhante: The process of D.O. sees it. Just before nibbana occurs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: "Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: 'When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? By what is aging-and-death conditioned?' Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: 'When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; aging-and-death has birth as its condition'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is contemplation. This is having a mental review on Dhamma. But at magga kala, magga citta only sees nibbana and no DO is there at all. After His attainment, The Buddha had to contemplate on Paticcasamuppada for a week. But magga kala is just a single moment and magga citta does not see any link of DO. Magga citta only sees nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are not DO. D.O is contemplated by paccavakkhana nana and later kamavacara mahakiriya cittas. Magga cittas do not see D.O. Magga cittas see Nibbana. No citta can see 2 objects at the same time. This is citta niyama. Even The Buddha could not abolish the citta niyama. ****** Bhante: This may or may not be true. AND the bodhisatta did through direct experience see the impersonal process of dependent origination many, many times, before Nibbana actually arose. Craving runs deep and seeing this process and realizing it is not a matter of mere "contemplation". Only after gaining the deep understanding of D.O. did the conditions arise for Nibbana to occur. The Buddha did review D.O. for one week after his supreme enlightenment and (this is my opinion) with the clearest mind possible he wanted to see for himself the finest details of how D.O. arose and passed away. In this way he would be able to explain it clearly. It is a very fascinating and wonderful thing to observe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: The word wisdom (pan~n~a) here means deep understanding. Then this sutta goes all of the way through the origination of these links of dependent origination and then through the cessation of these links. he spent much time reviewing this and seeing if there was any flaws in his observations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is wrong to say. As The Buddha He would not think Dhamma were wrong. So The Buddha did not need to check Dhamma whether there was any flaw. Instead as Dhamma are deep, large, wide and endless, He had to spent for 49 days before He preached Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** Bhante: Sorry, I did not mean to imply that the Buddha (bodhisatta) thought the Dhamma was wrong. I meant to say that he did check out his insights for their correctness and deep understanding. Please remember that he was still only a bodhisatta when he did this and he wanted to make sure that it was exactly correct from his own experience. He saw that every moment had these links arise and pass away very rapidly. To make sure that his insight was correct is what he was doing. And by the way this is what he encouraged everyone to do. It is only through direct experience that concepts can become realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does birth arise at every moment? Does death arise every moment? ********* An interesting question. And the answer is yes. Every time dependent origination arises and passes away it is a literal birth and death. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: as he did this he came to realize just how important these insights (deep understandings) were. Now let us take a look at the second discourse given by the Buddha (to the 5 ascetics) it has to do with seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta, this is true. But when looked at through the eyes of dependent origination, Why did the Buddha give this discourse at that time? Because even though these 5 Ascetics were already sotapannas they needed to look more deeply at "HOW" the impersonal nature of dependent origination actually arose and passed away - by seeing these characteristics in every link of D.O. they finally understood deeply enough to truly understand this process directly for themselves. In the later years until today too many people just take a surface look at this sutta and think that it is only this insight by itself that leads to nibbana. But it has to be seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. in order to have the clear understanding of HOW the true nature of all existence actually works. When you quoted this: ""The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassananana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (magganana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena -- impermanence, suffering and non-self. [1] It takes as its objective sphere the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) -- material form, feeling perception, mental formations and consciousness. Because insight knowledge takes the world of conditioned formations as its object, it is regarded as a mundane form of wisdom. Insight knowledge does not itself directly eradicate the defilements, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This must be other way. ***** Bhante: I was.quoting what was said to me and you very conveniently skipped what I said after this. Please stop doing this. It can cause many misunderstandings and confusion! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: The below statement is again taken out of context this is what someone else said to me. Please stop this! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Questioner: "Actually this is what was said by someone else", but serves to prepare the way for the second type of wisdom,the wisdom of the supramundane paths, which emerges when insight has been brought to its climax. The wisdom of the path, occurring in four distinct stages ( to be discussed below ), simultaneously realizes Nibbana, fathoms the Four Noble Truths, and cuts off the defilements. This wisdom is called "supramundane" because it rises up from the world of the five aggregates to realize the state transcendent to the world, Nibbana." *********** Bhante: And this is my reply: This is taken from commentarial works, and doesn't necessarily agree with the information in the suttas, especially the suttas having to do with D.O. As you can see for yourself there is no mention of the links of dependent origination or the insights into "HOW" they arise and "HOW" they cease. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does it need to mention when understood? ****** Bhante: Yes and often or until one understands it completely. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Again, this is what the Buddha talked about in well over a hundred suttas, so we must take it to mean that this is reasonably important and must be understood before the real enlightenment can possibly arise. The way to eradicate defilements is through truly seeing the impersonal nature of all existence through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. there is no other way. The theory above sounds good but it does not agree with the information in the suttas. When you said: "Therefore, my understanding is that the fruit of arahatship is the eradication of the defilements. And, the Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta eradicated his defilements, if the translation I have is correct:" The answer to this is much simpler than what you may suspect. When the Path (magga) arise it is very much like having an intellectual understanding. One knows and has strong confidence in the experience of what had happened. And the latent tendencies are still alive and well. When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual knowledge at all. It is kind of like one scene in the Movie "The Matrix" where they were first beginning to learn the Martial Arts. The teacher said not think how fast you want to be - know it. That is very much like the differences between the Path knowledge and the Fruition knowledge. When you said " I don't understand how it is possible to have absorption of an immaterial sphere and to also be mindful of material reality." This will come from your direct experience when your meditation gets deep enough. And with the practice of Tranquility meditation or sutta instructions there is no deep absorption, instead there is a seeing of the impersonal process of D.O. and this kind of understanding leads directly to the cessation of suffering. It does take an alert mind that is fluid to be able to do this. A mind that is absorbed into and stays on only one object cannot possibly be able to see deeply the impersonal processes that arise and pass away. Next you said: "It would seem that that person would almost need two minds, or to switch back and forth somehow. Not only that, the Buddha spoke about how attaining the immaterial jhanas would result in rebirth in those spheres if the taints weren't destroyed. This also leads me to believe that the immaterial jhanas require a sort of attachment to them to be achieved, which is contrary to the way you describe them." And this is where the true differences between the 2 different types of jhana make themselves shown. Every insight into the true nature of dependent origination helps one to realize the impersonal nature of every phenomena that arises. And by the way, this deep understanding is how the meditator goes from one jhana to the next. When one's mind has seen and understood what they have seen of Dependent origination mind will go deeper and the insights become more refined. But with the one-pointed absorption concentration the meditator is bringing back that tightness or tension to their meditation object, and if you will remember I said that this tightness or tension is craving. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In one of my replies, I wrongly mentioned that Bhante said 'clinging manifests as tension or headache'. Now it is clear that Bhante said 'this tightness or tension is craving'. I do not believe so. Craving is nama dhamma. Headache or tension are physical phenomena. They are not equal. They are rupa dhamma. They are photthabba rupa. They are gocara rupa. They are visaya rupa. Nama does not equal to rupa dhamma. If someone makes this as equation this is wrong. Craving does not equal to headache. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ************** Bhante: Actually what I have repeatedly have said is the tightness or tension arises in both mind and body and this is "HOW" craving is recognized. So what you are saying doesn't apply to what I have stated. And again tightness or tension does not equal a headache. It just means exactly what I have said it is a tightness or tension and it is subtle. Not gross like a headache. Please understand this and stop saying that I am in any way inferring that this tightness or tension is anything other than subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Craving is the "I like it ... I don't like it mind" Do you see the "I" in it? This is a real difference in the way the meditators insights arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Leave 'I like it' alone. 'I don't like it' is dosa. It is not lobha. But related to lobha. Lobha and dosa never arise together. ******** Bhante: I have never said that they did. I am only describing what craving is in real terms and "HOW" to recognize it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante quote: *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where does it describe it in the suttas? ********* Bhante: I said relatively new because it didn't really come into being until Venerable Dhammapala in the 2nd century A.D. came up with it. If you would look at his writtings you will see this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This makes much sense. In vithi vara there are kamavacara pancadvara vithi vara, kamavacara manodvara vithi vara, rupavacara manodvara vithi vara, arupavacara manodvara vithi vara, magga vithi vara, phala samapatti vithi vara, and nirodha samapatti vithi vara. In rupakusala cittas and arupakusala cittas vithi vara take their specific arammana or objects. At that time they seem to take a single object and said to be deeply concentrated. But in magga vithi vara which is unlike jhana vithi vara, it is well relaxed, well balanced, well penetrated, brought insight and this insight knowledge or wisdom see tilakkhana just before seeing of nibbana. These vithi varas are well calm and well concentrated and can be said as vipassana jhana. We do not need words but need to understand. In jhana vithi vara just before appana jhana arise, there arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise as parikamma, upacara, anuloma, gotrabhu. Then jhana arises. This appana samadhi or jhana is rupavacara rupa jhana. In magga vithi vara just before appana samadhi arise, there arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise. All these kamavacara mahakusala cittas are vipassana nana cittas. After gotrabhu citta, appana arise and this magga sees nibbana. As this samadhi is appana, this can be called vipassana jhana. Understanding is more important. ****** Bhante: this is commentarial and doesn't necessarily agree with the information given in the suttas and vinaya. The problem is this (as I see it) I am trying to clearly describe the kind of jhana that arises when one follows the sutta instructions and you are answering by the use of the commentaries about a completely different type of jhana. Sometimes you might need to, in the spirit of investigation, try the sutta instructions for yourself . By this I mean that, you will see for yourself if you take the time and effort to try the sutta method of instructions. Then only will you be able to truly understand the differences between the absorption jhana and the sutta instructions jhana. In This way you can give a direct experience, educated answer. Otherwise this is a never ending disagreement because I am talking about apples and you are talking about bananas. Yes they are both fruit but that is about all they have in common. And where in the Buddha-Dhamma does it say that samadhi equals appana? This is from another commentary written by Venerable Dhammapala who founded the univerisity that Venerable Buddhgosa studied at in India. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante quote: RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Bhante: Again, where is this described in the suttas? It seems to me that the cause of suffering and samsara is craving and ignorance so the way to get off of the wheel is by seeing directly the impersonal nature of the process of dependent origination (as seen through the 4 Noble Truths). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I was asked by Khanti Khema that 'Do you cling to The Buddha's Teaching?'. Now I see, someone clings to D.O and persistently arguing as a strong fact. Bodhisatta was shown old man, diseased man, and dead mean. At that time He noted the implication of change which is anicca and that change is suffering or dukkha. He got jhana training from Alara up to akincinnayatana arupa jhana. He got jhana training from Udaka up to n'evasanna-nasannayatana arupa jhana. These are not the answer and he went far. After 2 extremes, He adjusted and when balance arose seeing of tilakkhana arose and this exponentially raised up to asavakkhaya nana. ________________ ***** Bhante: This seems to be a case of someone clinging to the commentaries as opposed to someone who is actually taking their information from the suttas and vinaya, then applying it. Doing the investigation for oneself and then telling others about ones experiences and how they agree with the suttas is not necessarily an attachment. If so the Buddha was extremely attached by the standards you talk about above. ____________- Htoo: Tilakkhana is main. When tilakkhana are really seen that is directly seen, DO is already included and it does not need to be mentioned. ***** Bhante: Why does this sound like an opinion rather than a Dhamma fact? Please go to the first few answers about sutta 14 (4) SN for your answer. ----------------------- Htoo: The first 2 discourses are about Noble Eightfold Path ( 1st ) and 5 khandhas. When 5 khandhas were taught, they were checked with anicca, dukkha, and anatta. This is quite clear in the Anattalakkhana Sutta which is The Buddha 2nd Discourse. There was nothing mentioned about DO in the 2nd Discourse. But tilakkhanas were mentioned. Again, in the 1st Discourse, The Buddha never mentioned Paticcasamuppada or D.O. The Buddha first said this extreme was not good and this another extreme was also not good and you all had to avoid these two extremes. Then what you have to do was to take the middle way or majjhima patipada. Majjhima means 'middle' 'not extreme' 'balanced'. Patipada means 'practising path'. This middle way is Noble Eightfold Path or attha magganga or 8-cetasikas-led-Path. There was not mentioned any of DO. I did not find any DO both in 1st Sutta and 2nd Sutta. I remember KK's question again. Khanti Khema asked me, 'Htoo, do you cling to The Buddha's Teachings'. But now someone clings to D.O. Sometimes upadana dhammas are hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little different than just seeing them by themselves. One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does that sound like clinging? **** Bhante: Or does this sound like someone is attached to views other than the suttas and vinaya that they try to distract from what is being said by saying things like this? Please stop doing this it is not helpful or proper to question me in this way! _____________________ Htoo: For me I want to study suttas, vinayas, abhidhammas, buddhavamsa, jinatthapakasani, jataka, dhammapada. I do not confine to any particular thing. I do not cling to Suttas. ********** Bhante: You might add how many commentaries you use as well. Again, I am coming from an experiential background and when I find that if I follow the sutta and vinaya instructions in my meditation and the Suttas and Vinaya agrees completely with what is experienced, then I will take the time and energy to show others this - as the Buddha recommended in the Parinibbana Sutta. If you will remember correctly this is the way to see if the Buddha-Dhamma being taught is true and worth following or not. When the sutta instructions are practiced in this way, then a strong confidence arises that is unshakable. The whole of the Buddha's teachings are present in the suttas and vinaya as a guide to help. Some other commentaries may or may not be correct and this is why it is very necessary to try for yourself before accusing another of some attachments and trying to build yourself up as the example for studying, this shows a great deal of pride and is nothing but a low academic trick to distract, when the accuser sees for themselves that they have attachments and they are being questioned and shown that there are some wrong assumptions that were made. Please stop doing this. It is not helpful or beneficial to you or anyone else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: ..is because of their interconnectedness with each other. They are truly amazing in this way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, if you are well learned in Sutta, may I very humbly ask you to explain on DN 15 Mahanidana Sutta? There are duties of bhikkhus on lay people. They have to teach what have not been heard before. What are 8 vimokkhas in Mahanidana Suttas? That Sutta says the practitioner has to do forward, then backward, then forward and backward order of these 8 vimokkhas. It will be beneficial for all DSG members if you very kindly explain on these matter rather than talking on headache, tension etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: I do forgive you for saying this because you and your pride, won't take the time to investigate for yourself. But "don't" say that again! At least, until you have the direct experience of what I am talking about. Only then will you know if what I am saying is true or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now to clear the suspect please explain on 8 vimokkhas or Mahanidana Sutta DN 15. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ****** Bhante: Please get a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on this subject it is quite good and does happen to agree with everything that I have so far said. Also this is another way of trying to show off. If you are really interested in this please do it yourself and send it to me then I will give my comments on what you have written. -------------------- This is the way to check to see if what is being said is correct or not. When seeing and reading the many descriptions that the Buddha made in the suttas helps one to gain real confidence because it is said so many times in so many different ways. But it seems to always come back to the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Repetition is because Suttas were preached to different destination at different time. ----------------- Bhante: Actually repetition is because the Buddha wanted the people who listened to Dhamma to remember it. He could have talked like we do these days without any repetition, but he chose to teach by this method. May you be free from suffering. My palms are together and vow three times to you. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38614 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Robert, When you said "Buddhaghosa has given a commentary on the Anapanasati sutta and I would say it takes clear account of the various factors explained by the Buddha. I cannot see why you don't think so? As for the Visuddhimagga , the detailed traeatment of Dependent origination is beautiful and sublime IMO." ****Bhante The reason is because he was talking about one-pointed absorption concentration and the suttas don't. If you really want to see the difference then try the sutta instructions for a short period of time. ***Robert What I can't see is where you find any shortcomings in the Visuddhmagga or commentaries? Rather than being lacking the commentaries add detail and explicate the pithy sayings in the suttas. *****Bhante Because they really don't agree with the suttas and vinaya. Nowhere in the suttas does it say that Vipassana is one kind of meditation and samadhi is another. In sutta # 149 it bascially says that vipassana and samatha are yoked together. They are experienced at the same time. This is why I see some differences between the sutta/vinaya and the Visuddhi Magga. *****Robert Seeing into the Tilakkhana is synonymous with seeing into conditionality, they are intimately connected. I do think some meditation technique exponents have a limited understanding of this and actually mistake thinking about anatta, dukkha as being direct experience. ***** Bhante Again, This is according to some commentaries, but not the Dhamma/vinaya. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38615 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Dhamma Greetings Nina, You said "Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta succeeds this immediately in the same process." *Bhante Then How can you explain the sutta below. This is taken from a book that I am currently writing. It does have some explanation in it, that may help. Please forgive the length of this. But it does make what you are saying about Phala questionable. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi #105 Sanakkhata Sutta 1] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Vesali in the Great Wood Hall with the peaked roof. 2] Now on that occasion a number of bhikkhus had declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One thus: ‘We understand: Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ 3] Sunakkhata, son of the Licchavis, heard: "A number of bhikkhus, it seems, have declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One thus: ‘We understand: Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being’. "Then Sunakkhata, son of the Licchavis, went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and said to the Blessed One: 4] "I have heard, venerable sir, that a number of bhikkhus have declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One. Did they speak rightly or are there some bhikkhus here who declare final knowledge because they overestimate themselves?" 5] "When those bhikkhus, Sunakkhata, declared final knowledge in my presence, there were some bhikkhus who declare final knowledge rightly and there were some who claimed final knowledge because they over-estimated themselves. Therein, when bhikkhus declare final knowledge because they over-estimate themselves, the Tathagata thinks: ‘I should teach them Dhamma.’ Thus it is in this case , Sunakkhata, that the Tathagata thinks: ‘I should teach them the Dhamma.’ But some misguided man here formulated a question, came to the Tathagata, and ask it. In that case, Sunakkhata, the Tathagata has thought: ‘I should teach them the Dhamma,’ now he changes his mind." 6] "This is the time, Blessed One, this is the time, Sublime One, for the Blessed One, the bhikkhus will remember it." "Then listen, Sunakkhata, and attend closely to what I shall say." "Yes, venerable sir," Sunakkhatta, son of the Licchavis, replied to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said this: 7] "There are, Sunakkhata, these five cords of sensual pleasure. What are the five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likable, connected with sensual pleasure and provocative of lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual pleasures and provocative of lust. Odors cognizable by the nose that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual pleasures and provocative of lust. Flavors cognizable by the tongue that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual pleasures and provocative of lust. Tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual pleasures and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. 8] It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be intent on worldly material things. When a person is intent on worldly things, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the imperturbable is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and does not find satisfaction in that. ***** Talk about the imperturbable, is the discussing of the factors and experiences one has while being in the fourth jhana or one of the lower immaterial jhanas. That is the realm of ‘infinite space’, or the realm of ‘infinite consciousness’. The higher realms of ‘nothingness’ and the realm of ‘neither-perception-nor-non-perception’ will be discussed in this sutta. ***** 9] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, a man had left his own village or town a long time ago, and he were to see another man who had only recently left that village or town. He would ask that man whether the people of that village or town were safe, prosperous and healthy, and that man would tell him whether the people of that village or town were safe, prosperous and healthy. What do you think, Sunakkhata? Would that first man listen to him, give ear, and exert his mind to understand?" -"Yes, venerable sir." - "So too, Sunakkhata, it is possible that some person here may be intent on worldly material things. When a person is intent on worldly material things, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. He should be understood as a person who is intent on worldly material things. ***** Here the Buddha referred to Sunakkhata, because he was a person who was intent on seeing material things like supernormal powers, for example, flying in the air, reading others thoughts or creating fire with the mind or walking on the surface of the water without sinking. To the Buddha these were tricks to show off with and to gain a large following. Psychic powers can be developed but it is very unwise to talk about having them or show other people that these things can be done. Why because they will continually ask to be shown these things and will never try to develop their own mind. The Buddha said that this kind of supernormal power detracted others away from the true practice of working to free themselves from all fetters. In other words, the real practice of meditation is about seeing all of the factors and links of dependent origination for oneself, not showing off to gain a following of "believers". So here the Buddha was talking about material things in a way that Sunakkhata could see the error of his ways and start to do the real practice of overcoming craving and ignorance. ***** 10] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be intent on the imperturbable. When a person is intent on the imperturbable, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about worldly material things is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that. 11] "Just as a yellow leaf has fallen from its stalk is incapable of becoming green again, so too, Sunakkhata, when a person is intent on the imperturbable he has shed the fetter of worldly things. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of worldly material things who is intent on the imperturbable. 12] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be intent on the base of nothingness. When a person is intent on the base of nothingness, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the imperturbable is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that. 13] "Just as a thick stone that has split in two cannot be joined together again, so to, Sunakkhata, when a person is intent on the base of nothingness his fetter of the imperturbable has been split. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the imperturbable who is intent on the base of nothingness. 14] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. When a person is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk of the base of nothingness is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that. 15] "Suppose a person has eaten some delicious food and thrown it up. What do you think, Sunakkhata? Could that man have any desire to eat that food again?" "No, venerable sir.’ - ‘Why is that?’ - ‘Because that food is considered repulsive’." "So too, Sunakkhata, when a person is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, his fetter of the base of nothingness has been rejected. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the base of nothingness who is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. 16] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be completely intent on Nibbana. When a person is completely intent on Nibbana, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that. 17] "Just as a palm tree with its top cut off is incapable of growing again, so too, Sunakkhata, when a person is completely intent on Nibbana, his fetter of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception has been cut off - cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that it is no longer subject to future arising. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception who is completely intent on Nibbana. 18] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some bhikkhu here might think thus: ‘Craving has been called an arrow by the Great Recluse, the poisonous humor of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; the poisonous humor of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbana.’ Since he conceives himself thus, though it is contrary to fact, he might pursue those things that are unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbana. He might pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he might pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he might pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he might pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, or he might pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. ***** What does it mean that the meditator might pursue these things? It means that, at that time, this bhikkhu (meditator) does not see the process of dependent origination at all, thus he/she gets caught by craving - the "I like it, I don’t like it, mind" (which can always be seen as a tightness or tension somewhere in the body especially in the head/mind) and then begins to think about the story of why he/she likes or doesn’t like it. This ‘thinking about’ is what clinging actually is, when the bhikkhu (meditator) doesn’t observe the process of "how" these things arise, mind by nature begins to think about many other things and gets caught in restlessness without even being aware of how mind has taken him/her away from the clear observation of dependent origination. ‘Pursuing things’ doesn’t mean that the bhikkhu (meditator) should "ignore", try to push away or try to stop the sight or sound. At that time, the meditator must be aware of ‘how’ ignorance and craving arises and how it manifests in the process of dependent origination. What this is saying is that the bhikkhu (meditator) can/will see, hear, taste, smell, touch, and be with it completely and even enjoy the sight, sound etc. (if the sight, or sound etc. is pleasant) without being ‘attached to it’. What does being attached actually mean? Being attached means that the bhikkhu (meditator) who isn’t aware of "HOW" mind moves, gets caught in ideas, thoughts, concepts, opinions and the story about why they like or dislike, the ideas, opinions and concepts then the meditator begins to take all of these ideas, thoughts, opinions and concepts personally (atta) . Taking things personally means that the meditator is caught in the idea that all thoughts, opinions, concepts and feelings are ‘I, me, mine’. In other words, the bhikkhu (meditator) at that time, is not seeing the process of ‘HOW’ mind actually works and is caught in the belief that all of these ideas, thoughts, opinions, concepts and feelings are personal (atta). This false idea that all ideas, thoughts, opinions, concepts and feelings are personal arises in the same moment that craving arises. Craving ALWAYS manifests and arises as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body. Right after the craving arises the clinging (thinking) pulls mind away from watching what is happening in the present moment and gets lost in concepts and opinions about the craving. This leads to more thoughts, opinions and concepts which pulls mind even further away from the sight or sound or taste or smell or touch. The true understanding of what mindfulness is all about, is being aware of "how" mind moves and keenly observing this movement with a mind that is free from craving and clinging. ***** When he pursues the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he pursues unsuitable sounds with the ear, he pursues unsuitable odors with the nose, he pursues unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he pursues unsuitable tangibles with the body, he pursues unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust invades his mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he would incur death or deadly suffering. ***** Here what this sutta is talking about is that a bhikkhu (meditator) thinks he/she has expelled all craving and desire and his/her mind inclines completely on the attainment of Nibbana, so no craving will ever arise again. But this bhikkhu (meditator) has over-estimated his/her experience. So when a sight, sound, odor, taste, touch or thought arises he/she indulges in it thinking "It is alright for me to do this because I am one who is freed from all craving, I am an enlightened one who has completely let go of even the slightest desire. These unsuitable things have no hold on me." When in fact, this bhikkhu (meditator) has not expelled craving but is indulging in it. His/Her mindfulness is not sharp and he/she does not clearly see what his/her mind is doing at that time. This can even happen to an arahat who has experienced the path but has not experienced the fruition of arahatship. For one who has experienced the path only there is still an opportunity for ignorance and craving to arise. ***** 19] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, a man were wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, brought a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife, next he would probe for the arrow with a probe, then he would pull out the arrow and would expel the poisonous humor, leaving a trace of it behind. Thinking that no trace was left behind, he would say; ‘Good man, the arrow has been pulled out from you; the poisonous humor has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming you. Eat only suitable food; do not eat unsuitable food or else the wound may suppurate. From time to time wash the wound and from time to time anoint its opening, so that pus and blood do not cover the opening of the wound. Do not walk around in the wind and sun or else dust and dirt may infect the opening of the wound. Take care of your wound, good man, and see to it that the wound heals.’ 20] "The man would think: ‘The arrow has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humor has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming me.’ He would eat unsuitable food, and the wound would suppurate. He would not wash the wound from time to time nor would he anoint its opening from time to time, pus and blood would cover the opening of the wound. He would walk around in the wind and sun, then dust and dirt infect the opening of the wound. He would not take care of his wound, nor would he see to it that the wound heals. Then, both because he does what is unsuitable and because a trace was left behind the foul poisonous humor was not expelled, the wound would swell, and with its swelling he would incur death or deadly suffering. ***** The Buddha is talking about a person who has attained one of the lower stages of the path [magga] (that is a person who experiences becoming a Sotapanna, Sakadagami, or Anagami who have not experienced the fruition of their attainment where the personality changes and begins to let go of things like a belief in a personal self, doubt in the path, a belief that rites and rituals lead one to nibbana, or as in the case of the anagami letting go of lust and hatred. Also this is what the Buddha meant when in the Kitagiri Sutta when he said that there was ‘still work to do with diligence’ ). So if the meditator doesn’t take close care of what can attract mind then they will lose that attainment. This is extremely important to realize! Just because a person has had a very deep spiritual experience such as the attainment of nibbana, they have much work to do. Only after they attain the fruition (phala) of that attainment will there be true knowledge and vision that is unshakable. Even then, if the meditator has not had the experience of the complete cessation of all ignorance [magga] (and became an arahat) and then had the fruition (phala) experience of that attainment, the Buddha said that there is ‘still more work to do with diligence’. From the Buddha’s perspective a person is not completely safe and free until they have become an arahat (and experienced the fruition [phala] of that attainment). In that way, there is no chance for one to experience ‘death or deadly suffering’. ***** 21] "So too, Sunakkhata, it is possible that some bhikkhu here might think thus: ‘Craving has been called an arrow by the Great Recluse; the poisonous humor of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust, and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; the poisonous humor of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent upon Nibbana.’ Because he conceives himself thus, though it is contrary to fact, he might pursue things that are unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbana. He might pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he might pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he might pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he might pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, or he might pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. When he pursues the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he pursues unsuitable sounds with the ear, he pursues unsuitable odors with the nose, he pursues unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he pursues unsuitable tangibles with the body, he pursues unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust invades his mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he would incur death or deadly suffering. 22] "For it is death in the Discipline of the Noble Ones, Sunakkhata, when one abandons the training and reverts to the low life; and it is deadly suffering when one commits some defiled offense. 23] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some bhikkhu here might think thus: ‘Craving has been called an arrow by the Great Recluse; the poisonous humor of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust, and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; the poisonous humor of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbana.’ Being one who really is completely intent on Nibbana, he would not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he would not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he would not pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he would not pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he would not pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, he would not pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. Because he does not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he does not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he does not pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he does not pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he does not pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, he does not pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust does not invade his mind. Because his mind is not invaded by lust, he would not incur death or deadly suffering. ***** This is talking about what a person who has the initial experience of the path (magga) must do in order to experience the fruition (phala) of that attainment. This means that one begins to see exactly "HOW" the process of dependent origination occurs in every experience that arises and passes away (anicca). The pursuing of unsuitable sense pleasures means that even though very pleasing things arise before one of the sense doors, one does not indulge in them or become distracted by them. They see as they actually are only a sight, sound, taste, odor, or tangible. The person who is truly intent on Nibbana does not take pleasure in having these things arise. They do experience these things but by seeing through dependent origination they see these sense objects as simply the arising and passing away of phenomena. When the meditator sees this clearly and doesn’t become infatuated with any sensual pleasures they will be able to see clearly the impermanent nature of everything in existence (anicca). They will be able to see and completely experience the unsatisfactory nature in everything (dukkha) that changes because nothing is ever the same and the fact that everything that arises in both mind and body is impersonal (anatta). Seeing this clearly is understanding through direct experience, that there is nothing but the process of dependent origination continually arising, changing, and fading away (anicca). All things that arise and pass away are conditioned as we see through the deep observation of dependent origination, so how can there be a personal ‘self’ controlling events? This kind of keen observation (dhammavicaya the close investigation of one’s experience. This is an enlightenment factor.) is done all of the time when one is intent on the liberation of mind (nibbana). So seeing and truly understanding things that arise, in this way the meditators mind becomes free from all ignorance, craving, attachments and fetters. ***** 24] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, a man were wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, brought a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife, next he would probe for the arrow with a probe, then he would pull out the arrow and would expel the poisonous humor without leaving a trace of it behind. Knowing that no trace was left behind, he would say: ‘Good man, the arrow has been pulled out from you; the poisonous humor has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming you. Eat only suitable food; do not eat unsuitable food or else the wound may suppurate. From time to time wash the wound and from time to time anoint its opening, so that pus and blood do not cover the opening of the wound. Do not walk around in the wind and sun or else dust and dirt may infect the opening of the wound. Take care of your wound, good man, and see to it that the wound heals. 25] "The man would think: ‘The arrow has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humor has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming me.’ He would eat only suitable food, and the wound would not suppurate. From time to time he would wash the wound and from time to time he would anoint its opening, so pus and blood would not cover the opening of the wound. He would take care not to walk around in the wind and sun, so dust and dirt would not infect the wound and he would see to it that the wound heals. Then, both because he does what is suitable and because no trace was left behind when the foul poisonous humor was expelled, the wound would heal, and because it had healed and was covered with skin, he would not incur death or deadly suffering. 26] "So too, Sunakkhata, it is possible that some bhikkhus here might think thus: ‘Craving has been called an arrow by the Great Recluse; the poisonous humor of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust and ill will. That arrow of craving has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humor of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbana.’ Being one who is completely intent on Nibbana, he would not pursue those things unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbana, he would not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he would not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he would not pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he would not pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he would not pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, he would not pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. Because he does not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he does not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he does not pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he does not pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he does not pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, he does not pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust does not invade his mind. Because his mind is not invaded by lust, he would not incur death or deadly suffering. 27] "Sunakkhata, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: ‘Wound’ is a term for the six internal sense bases. ‘Poisonous humor’ is a term for ignorance. ‘Arrow’ is a term for craving. ‘Probe’ is a term for mindfulness. ‘Knife’ is a term for noble wisdom. "Surgeon’ is a term for the Tathagata, the Accomplished One, the Fully Enlightened One. ***** Here when the Buddha is talking about the surgeon being the Tathagata he is talking about the description given directly above. In section #19 the surgeon is a teacher other than the Tathagata because he wrongly thought that the wound was free from poison, but it still had some poison in it. If there were a slight bit of poison (clinging/craving) left how would that person be completely free from all ignorance? The meditator who still has a little clinging and craving, at best will experience becoming an Anagami, when they treat the ‘wound’ properly. ***** 28] That bhikkhu, Sunakkhata, is one who practices restraint in the six bases of contact. Having understood that craving is the root of suffering, being craving-less, liberated in the destruction of the craving, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any craving. 29] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, there were a bronze cup of beverage possessing a good color, smell, and taste, but it was mixed with poison, and a man came who wanted to live, not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain. What do you think, Sunakkhata, would that man drink that cup of beverage, knowing: ‘If I drink this I will incur death or deadly suffering’?" - "No, venerable sir." - "So too, that bhikkhu is one who practices restraint in the six sense bases of contact. Having understood that craving is the root of suffering, being craving-less, liberated in the destruction of craving, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any craving. 30] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, there was a deadly poisonous snake, and a man came who wanted to live, not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain. What do you think, Sunakkhata, would he give that deadly poisonous snake his hand or thumb, knowing; ‘If I am bitten by him I will incur death or deadly suffering’?" - "No, venerable sir." - "So too, when a bhikkhu practices restraint in the six sense bases of contact, and having understood that craving is the root of suffering, is without craving, liberated by the destruction of craving, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any object of craving." That is what the Buddha said. Sunakkhata, son of the Licchavis, was satisfied and delighted in The Blessed One’s words. 38616 From: Andrew Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Andrew and all - [snip] > So, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote, almost correctly, I believe "All the views > dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two sources, reasoning and > meditative experience." What he didn't mention were the other sources given in > the Kalama Sutta such as the following: reports and legends, logical conjecture > and analogical inference, scripture and authority. But putting these > additional items aside, and putting aside that > scripture and authority include both Sutta Pitaka, Abhidhamma, the > commentaries, and all other records and interpretations of the Buddha's teaching (!), > and just considering what Bhikkhu Bodhi gave, namely reasoning and meditative > experience, I would like to ask the good folks here what they intend to give > up, meditating or thinking or both!! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard - who must now no longer meditate, no longer think, and for that > matter, because of the scripture and authority problems, no longer study!! ;-) Hi Howard Thanks for your tongue-in-cheek reply. I think your alarm is quite unfounded as I suspect that "reasoning" is some Pali word like "takka" wide enough to encompass the mind's dealing with all those sources and processes you fear have been overlooked. I also don't think BB is suggesting you give up your meditation but just bear in mind that views are not something peculiar to "book-larnin'". I have seen on DSG devout meditators - sometimes with a penchant for eternalism - tell us all to sit down and shut up only later to regale us all with retrospective detail of "what I experienced in my meditation" (i.e. reasoning). And how true to the experience is that reasoning? *That's* the $64,000 question! And if it's *not* true and develops into a wrong view ... well, it's another side alley, isn't it. It's not the real deal, the main game or whatever you want to call the true Dhamma. I'm not telling you here anything you don't already know, just hope you benefited from the reminder (as I did). Best wishes Andrew PS I'm just back from a yoga-type meditation weekend. Don't ask. (-: 38617 From: Andrew Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Andrew and Howard > > That is B Bodhi personal opinion. Let us be differentiate between > them. Everything we talk about mediation, there is also the mention > of going to seclusion, under the tree - these are enivornment > conditions :). When it was mention about in mindfullness sutta, > there is always this small little statement a lot of people do not > notice, even before he practise mindulness < and setting mindfulness to the fore>>, so there is already a certain > level of training of this monks, because they are already established > in mindfullness. Then after that < that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that > he is breathing out long.>> He discerns :) what is discerns, mean a > clear comprehension means a certain level of development of wisdom. > So he must have right environment conditions, a certain level of sati > and panna even before he embarks on the journey to meditation. There > is no doubt there is meditation mentioned in the suttas and visudd, > but the question is, is it right for us or does it appear to be seen > as it is :). Nonetheless, everyone have different accumulations :) Hi Ken O Thanks for your explanation. Are you saying that meditating in the manner you describe must be done with Right Understanding in the forefront otherwise the meditator is likely to be grasping the Dhamma snake in the wrong place? Andrew 38618 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Vism.XIV,115 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 115. (c) With the life-continuum continuity occurring thus, when living beings' faculties have become capable of apprehending an object, then, when a visible datum has come into the eye's focus, there is impinging upon the eye-sensitivity due to the visible datum. Thereupon, owing to the impact's influence, there comes to be a disturbance in [the continuity of] the life-continuum.46 Then, when the life-continuum has ceased, the functional mind-element (70) arises making that same visible datum its object, as it were, cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. So too in the case of the ear door and so on. ----------------------------- Note 46. ' "A disturbance in the life-continuum" is a wavering of the life-continuum consciousness; the meaning is that there is the arrival at a state that is a reason for dissimilarity in its occurrence twice in that way. For it is called disturbance (calana) because it is like a disturbance (movement) since there seems to be a cause for an occasion (avatthaa) in the mind's continuity different from the previous occasion. Granted, firstly, that there is impact on the sensitivity owing to confrontation with an object, since the necessity for that is established by the existence of the objective field and the possessor of the objective field, but how does there come to be disturbance (movement) of the life-continuum that has a different support? Because it is connected with it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on the surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly sitting on another grain of sugar moves' (Pm. 478). 38619 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dear Bhante Vimilaramsi Thank you again for lending me an ear as I work out my understanding. I am still going through the long e-mail you were kind enough to send me. > If you are not interested in trying formal meditation for whatever reason > that is fine. And, may I suggest trying this technique during your daily > activities: when you notice that your mind is very active, let go of > those thoughts and relax all tightness or tension in your mind and body > and then watch your breath and relax some more on the in-breath and out > breath for two or three breaths. This helps greatly in overcoming stress > and the false idea that thoughts and feelings are yours personally. If > you can cultivate this daily it can be of great benefit to you. I am a bit confused by this, Bhante. This sounds more like a relaxation technique than a way of deepening insight into anatta. It would seem to me that if we seek relaxation in order to overcome stress at that moment, we are coming no closer to liberation from dukkha but are rather using meditation techniques to feel better for awhile. Now, feeling more relaxed physically is a good thing, and the calm it conditions may provide a more suitable atmosphere for insight, but it also seems to me that there is lobha involved with those moments of seeking relaxation from tension. I don't see how "overcoming stress" and "overcoming the false idea that thoughts and feelings are yous personally" are related. All too often overcoming stress is accomplished through methods that tighten the binds of self-view rather than loosening them, it would seem to me. If you could elaborate a bit more on the relationship beween overcoming stress through awareness of the breath and overcoming false ideas of self, I would be very grateful. Yesterday, I was walking in a big park where I go every Sunday morning before work. It is usually a time for peace and quiet and reflection as I walk, but yesterday there was some sort of activity going on involving someone shouting greetings through a loudspeaker. I had a lot of aversion to this, felt tension, and thought of your e-mail. I did breathe with attention, as I have often done during my walks in the past (using BO on the inbreath and DHA on the outbreath, as taught by so many teachers, or the Japanese word HEI -WA, which means "peace" and works nicely - my invention.) It is relaxing, there is no doubt about that. The aversion was temporarily subdued. But I also thought that it would be better to remember what I have learned from Abhidhamma: Cittas rooted in aversion (dosa) are always accompanied by cittas rooted in delusion (moha.) There would be no aversion if I were not ignorant of realities. For example, unpleasant sound is vipaka, a resultant of kamma. Also, people are the owners of their kamma, and behave in a way over which I have no control. Now, there is a wide range between thinking about these kinds of things and knowing them directly in the moment. As we develop deeper understanding, we move within that range, gradually, towards a more direct understanding. (This is my idea, not from Abhidhamma) The wonderful thing is that even understanding to a shallow degree is quite liberating, and, in my opinion, liberating in a way that is more lasting and more in line with understanding anatta than is relaxation through awareness of the breath. We know, however, that the Buddha taught many ways to liberation to different people based on his insight into their accumulations. It could be that I have accumulations that lead me in the direction of the process I described above, the same accumulations that currently are making it difficult for me to benefit from formal meditation. (I do meditate on mornings when my mind is so scattered that it is impossible to concentrate on my Dhamma study, and I do hope that conditions will arise that permit me to seek jhanas in this lifetime or one to come.) In my next post, I would like to address the issue of study, and try to lay out the various ways in which Dhamma study leads to a more direct understanding. The intellectual approach does not equal being lost in books, as many people seem to misunderstand. It's all about setting conditions for insight in daily life. Thanks again for your patience with my impudence. Metta, Phil 38620 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:50pm Subject: XIV 140 140. (ix) By its means they have faith (saddahanti), or it itself is having of faith (saddahana), thus it is faith (saddhaa). Its characteristic is having faith, or its characteristic is trusting. Its function is to clarify, like a water-clearing gem, or its function is to enter into, like the setting out across a flood (cf. Sn. 184). It is manifested as non-fogginess, or it is manifested as resolution. Its proximate cause is something to have faith in, or its proximate cause is the things beginning with hearing the Good Dhamma (saddhamma) that constitute the factors of stream-entry.63 It should be regarded as a hand [because it takes hold of profitable things], as wealth (Sn. 182), and as seed (Sn. 77). ------------------------ Note 63. The four factors of stream entry (see S.v,347) are waiting on good men, hearing the Good Dhamma, wise attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Again they are: absolute confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and possession of noble virtue (S.v,343). 38621 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 140 Hi all, Please disregard XIV 140 for now. Jumped the gun. Larry 38622 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > My discussin with Dan D was an offshoot over the issue whether people > outside the dispensation is able to develop panna. It is not about > people who are in the path doing kusala actions :). Dan D, as I > think what he thought that selfless acts by non-Buddhist > practitioners can be basis of developing panna and also said that > some of them are better than Buddhists themselves in the selfless > acts (that is quite true :) during our time). ===== If a non-Buddhist reflects on the shortness of life - this thought is accompanied by panna. One could argue that during this reflection, the non-Buddhist does not understand anicca; but then again how many Buddhists REALLY understand anicca - isn't it just a matter of degree? If it required perfect knowledge, then only Arahants would have thoughts with panna. If a non-Buddhist reflects that good deeds bear good results - this thought is accompanied by panna (even if the non-Buddhist attributes this "justice" to an all-knowing God). One could argue that during this reflection, the non-Buddhist does not understand kamma; but then again how many Buddhists REALLY understand kamma - isn't it just a matter of degree? If it required perfect knowledge, then only Arahants would have thoughts with panna. ===== > > So I am giving information from the text that five precepts can also > be done by non-practitioners of Buddhism but that does not associated > with panna. Similarly my opinion and not the text as kusala can > arise without panna, compassion and loving kindness can arise without > any association with panna. > ===== The five precepts can be performed by anybody. Sometimes they are accompanied by panna, sometimes they are not. A Buddhist can perform precepts with or without panna, as can a non-Buddhist. Yes, compassion and loving kindness can arise with or without panna, by both Buddhists and non-Buddhists. ===== > p.s. So when are coming to Singapore :). Please bring me a copy of > your book the reason behind the Buddha smile. > The book won't be printed until January - I will let you know off- list of a suitable date (normally, my Singpaore trips are arrive and leave on the same day). Do you have any plans to make it up to KL? Metta, Rob M :-) 38623 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:15pm Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > , The Buddha told Ananda that Bhagava can live longer > even aeons. > ----------------- dear htoo, I was surpised by this statement. By aeon what do you mean? Robertk 38624 From: naresh gurwani Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:51pm Subject: Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hi, I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going on through the messages daily also i was going on through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same motto but different view about the enlightment. Some seek mediatation before understanding the theory while some start with theory, some say meditation is not necessary for understanding dhamma. i have read from some sites tht a formal meditation is imp for intiating the process... And its not possible to meditate alone one should go under training where concentrating on breath is imp, and what is samtha mediation. Iam still to find a correct view about how to understand buddha teaching which should make me atleast start. It will be helpful if somebody can guide me Awaiting your reply Naresh --- plnao wrote: > > Dear Bhante Vimilaramsi > > Thank you again for lending me an ear as I work out > my understanding. > I am still going through the long e-mail you were > kind enough to send me. > > > If you are not interested in trying formal > meditation for whatever reason > > that is fine. And, may I suggest trying this > technique during your daily > > activities: when you notice that your mind is very > active, let go of > > those thoughts and relax all tightness or tension > in your mind and body > > and then watch your breath and relax some more on > the in-breath and out > > breath for two or three breaths. This helps > greatly in overcoming stress > > and the false idea that thoughts and feelings are > yours personally. If > > you can cultivate this daily it can be of great > benefit to you. 38625 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Him Rob (and Ken) - Exactly, Rob! Just "being a Buddhist" does not in itself confer any special powers, blessings, or wisdom. What is key is what one does, not what one identifies him/herself as. With metta, Howard P.S. Your post follows, without further comment from me. In a message dated 11/21/04 8:16:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Ken O, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O > wrote: > >My discussin with Dan D was an offshoot over the issue whether > people > >outside the dispensation is able to develop panna. It is not about > >people who are in the path doing kusala actions :). Dan D, as I > >think what he thought that selfless acts by non-Buddhist > >practitioners can be basis of developing panna and also said that > >some of them are better than Buddhists themselves in the selfless > >acts (that is quite true :) during our time). > > ===== > > If a non-Buddhist reflects on the shortness of life - this thought > is accompanied by panna. > > One could argue that during this reflection, the non-Buddhist does > not understand anicca; but then again how many Buddhists REALLY > understand anicca - isn't it just a matter of degree? If it required > perfect knowledge, then only Arahants would have thoughts with panna. > > If a non-Buddhist reflects that good deeds bear good results - this > thought is accompanied by panna (even if the non-Buddhist attributes > this "justice" to an all-knowing God). > > One could argue that during this reflection, the non-Buddhist does > not understand kamma; but then again how many Buddhists REALLY > understand kamma - isn't it just a matter of degree? If it required > perfect knowledge, then only Arahants would have thoughts with panna. > > ===== > > > >So I am giving information from the text that five precepts can > also > >be done by non-practitioners of Buddhism but that does not > associated > >with panna. Similarly my opinion and not the text as kusala can > >arise without panna, compassion and loving kindness can arise > without > >any association with panna. > > > ===== > > The five precepts can be performed by anybody. Sometimes they are > accompanied by panna, sometimes they are not. A Buddhist can perform > precepts with or without panna, as can a non-Buddhist. > > Yes, compassion and loving kindness can arise with or without panna, > by both Buddhists and non-Buddhists. > > ===== > > >p.s. So when are coming to Singapore :). Please bring me a copy of > >your book the reason behind the Buddha smile. > > > > The book won't be printed until January - I will let you know off- > list of a suitable date (normally, my Singpaore trips are arrive and > leave on the same day). Do you have any plans to make it up to KL? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38626 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Dear Htoo, I am not sure, they are arise and fall away, they are impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha, what do you think? Do you read this in a Commentary? It is true that they are not objects of clinging, the nine lokuttara dhammas are the only dhammas that are not objects of clinging. Under that aspect they are not the second noble truth, the cause of dukkha. Nina. op 21-11-2004 20:16 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > some exceptions: magga cittas and phala cittas are not dukkha as are > their accompanying cetasikas] 38627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Larry, op 21-11-2004 19:22 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > L: What I had in mind is that the word "feeling" can mean touching or > vedana. This can be confusing when talking about body-door > experience. Similarly, the word "taste" can be a noun or verb, one > sense referring to a rupa and the other case referring to taste > consciousness (taste a taste). N: Yes, I understand now what you mean. Nina 38628 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread , armed forces, navy Dear Htoo, I like your simile of armed forces and navy, Nina. op 21-11-2004 20:09 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:> > To repeat, in arm force saddha is general, sati is secretary, hiri > and ottappa are right and left wing leiutinant-general and 6 > cetasikas for citta namely cittapassaddhi, cittalahuta, cittamuduta, > cittakammannata, cittapagunnata, and cittujukata are soldiers of the > arm force. > > In navy again saddha is the admiral, tatramajjhattata is secretary, > alobha and adosa are right and left wing rear-admiral and 6 cetasikas > of all associated cetasikas namely kayapassaddhi, kayalahuta, > kayamuduta, kayakammannata, kayapagunnata, and kayujikata are all > followers. > > These 2 forces always guard the king sobhana cittas ( 59 or 91 > cittas ). 38629 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, Htoo added something about accumulation, perhaps it is clear now? op 21-11-2004 19:34 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > N: "If there were no accumulation how could > there be latent tendencies, anusayas, lying dormant in each citta." > > L: I am not saying there are no accumulations. I am just saying > accumulations are memory, habit, concept. There is no "reality" > called accumulation. If you want to find accumulation in citta > process you have to look at tadarammana and votthapana cittas. N: We cannot find accumulation in a process, but accumulated tendencies are dormant in each citta. And actively, javana cittas accumulate. We cannot say that they are especially with tadarammana and votthapana cittas. L:The > functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. N: Cetasikas are not the only condition for citta. There are manifold conditions for each citta. (snip, snip) Nina. 38630 From: Andrew Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > > Hi, > > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going > on through the messages daily also i was going on > through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same > motto but different view about the enlightment. > Some seek mediatation before understanding the theory > while some start with theory, some say meditation is > not necessary for understanding dhamma. > > i have read from some sites tht a formal meditation is > imp for intiating the process... > And its not possible to meditate alone one should go > under training where concentrating on breath is imp, > and what is samtha mediation. > > Iam still to find a correct view about how to > understand buddha teaching which should make me > atleast start. > > > It will be helpful if somebody can guide me > > Awaiting your reply > Naresh Dear Naresh Welcome to DSG. It's very confusing sometimes when there are lots of people telling you to do different things. It was like that at the time of the Buddha, too. The Kalama Sutta tells the story of a group of villagers who were confused by it all and the Buddha gave them some good advice. Have you read the Kalama Sutta yet? Just before the Buddha died (or "attained parinibbana"), his followers were worried about who would guide them after his death. He told them to let the Dhamma (the Teachings) be their guide. And so should you. Why don't you become a "Dhamma explorer". Listen to all the different viewpoints. Ask lots of questions. Do lots of reading. Try some meditation. Don't commit yourself in any way to any viewpoint unless you feel comfortable with it. And even then, don't cling to it so tightly that you feel you have to defend it or convert others. Viewpoints can be dangerous things. The Suttas say that Right Understanding comes first. A good topic to start off with, don't you think? Finally, don't let the confusion make you depressed. After all, this is really exciting - Naresh's own journey into the depths of the Buddhadhamma - something the Buddha himself said was so profound, it is difficult to see. As your guide, use your own understanding of the Dhamma - and that is something which will change as you go along. If you cling to something that changes, suffering happens. So relax and enjoy learning as much as you can about this remarkable being we call the Buddha. You don't need a guide apart from the Teachings. Best wishes Andrew 38631 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hi Naresh, Welcome! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going > on through the messages daily also i was going on > through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same > motto but different view about the enlightment. > Some seek mediatation before understanding the theory > while some start with theory, some say meditation is > not necessary for understanding dhamma. > > i have read from some sites tht a formal meditation is > imp for intiating the process... > And its not possible to meditate alone one should go > under training where concentrating on breath is imp, > and what is samtha mediation. > > Iam still to find a correct view about how to > understand buddha teaching which should make me > atleast start. > > > It will be helpful if somebody can guide me Most Buddhist books (and most Buddhist web-sites) hold the view that "formal meditation" (i.e. time spent sitting on a cushion) is an important part of spiritual development. (BTW - I happen to be one of those who thinks this way.) Some on this site hold that view that mindfulness should be part of daily life and that time spent on a cushion is no more special than other moments arising throughout the day. They view the attachment to "time on the cushion as something special" as reinforcing the concept of a self that has control over the flow of the mind. (I hope that I haven't mis-stated the position of these people). Naresh, please do not let this difference of opinion between members of DSG get in the way of your participation in DSG. There are two types of meditation: - Vipassana (mindfulness of whatever object arises) - Samatha (concentration on a specific object) You should not start meditating (particularly samatha meditation) without a qualified teacher to guide you. Studying the Dhamma and straightening out of views are important practices. Whether meditating or not, you can benefit a lot by asking Dhamma-related questions to the members of DSG. Reading Nina's books, such as "Buddhism in Daily Life", is an excellent place to start. Looking forward to your first set of questions! Metta, Rob M :-) 38632 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hello Naresh, Welcome to dsg. Personally, I think it important to intellectually understand what the Buddha taught before launching into some practice or other. As Andrew has stated, right view of the dhamma is first and foremost. Buddha's teaching leads eventually to detachment, so if we don't have right view of what is and is not the Path leading to cessation of attachment, then we may be developing the wrong path and lots more wrong view. Study the teachings, ask questions - no matter how trivial you think they might be, and slowly the right understanding of the Buddha- Dhamma develops. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > > Hi, > > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going > on through the messages daily also i was going on > through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same > motto but different view about the enlightment. > Some seek mediatation before understanding the theory > while some start with theory, some say meditation is > not necessary for understanding dhamma. > > i have read from some sites tht a formal meditation is > imp for intiating the process... > And its not possible to meditate alone one should go > under training where concentrating on breath is imp, > and what is samtha mediation. > > Iam still to find a correct view about how to > understand buddha teaching which should make me > atleast start. > > > It will be helpful if somebody can guide me > > Awaiting your reply > Naresh 38633 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 0:37am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 55 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (b) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** The Atthasåliní then gives a second definition: * .Perception has the characteristic of perceiving by an act of general .inclusion, and the function of making marks as a condition for .repeated perception (for recognizing or remembering)(2), as when .woodcutters ‘perceive’ logs and so forth. Its manifestation is the action .of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, as in the case of .blind persons who ‘see’ an elephant(3). Or, it has briefness as .manifestation, like lightning, owing to its inability to penetrate the .object. Its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared, like the .perception which arises in young deer mistaking scarecrows for men. * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 130) gives a similar definition. We can use the words perceiving, noting, recognizing and ‘marking’ in order to designate the reality which is saññå, but words are inadequate to describe realities. We should study the characteristic and function of saññå. *** 2) I am using the translation of the Ven. Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies, page 69, BPS, Kandy, 1976 3) Here I use the English translation of the Visuddhimagga, XIV, 130, instead of the English text of the Atthasåliní. The commentary refers to a story in the “Udåna” (Verses of Uplift, Minor Anthologies, 68-69) about blind people who touch different parts of an elephant. Each of them interprets in his own way what an elephant is like: the person who touches the head believes that the elephant is like a pot, since he remembers what a pot is like; the person who touches the tusks believes that it is like a ploughshare, and so on. Thus, there is recognizing of a sign or label which was made before. ***** [Ch.2 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38634 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi Hugo, Welcome to DSG. I'm enjoying your posts and gentle wit. Glad Htoo gave you 3x Sadhu!! ... --- Hugo wrote: > > > On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:08:08 -0000, buddhatrue > wrote: > > However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to > > learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a > > very good idea. You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > > patience. (go to www.accesstoinsight.org for selected suttas if you > > don't have the printed copies) > > Excellent advice James! .... S: Hmmm- haven't you heard that reading this discussion group is the short-cut to nibbana??;-). Seriously, I'd recommend also dipping into the vinaya, abhidhamma and commentaries - even just reading the brief commentary notes B.Bodhi gives with some of his translations or the ones he gives in full, such as with the Brahmajala Sutta which Andrew just mentioned. In another post (which I can't find now), you mentioned that you planned to start reading some abhidhamma I think. I'd recommend looking at the posts in Useful Posts (a small selection from the archives), under: Abhidhamma: Beginners. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts You may then like to start looking at Nina's book 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' and any of the materials on RobK's website. http://www.abhidhamma.org/ I also recommend Bodhi's translation of Abhidammattha Sangaha(CMA)as a reference text. OK, patience (khanti) is needed. Looking at the subject heading, I'm reminded that we discussed in India about how patience is included in viriya cetasika and can be wholesome or unwholesome. In the latter cases, it's not khanti at all. This is the value of the teachings - we begin to understand more and more about the present dhammas which make up our life. This morning in my yoga class, lots of patience, but mostly accompanying attachment and aversion and ignorance. And then, there are many friends here with a keen interest and knowledge in the Abhidhamma to answer any questions..... You've made a great start with your contributions and I look forward to reading more of them. Where do you live? Do share anything else about your background and interest too. (even a pic if you have one to spare for the album on the homepage....). Metta, Sarah ========= 38635 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Hello Robert, Htoo, all In DN 16.3.3 Maurice Walshe adds a note to his translation of "The Tathagata has developed these powers, ... properly undertaken them. And he could, Aananda, undoubtedly live for a century, or the remainder of one.' Note 400 "Kappa.m vaa tittheyya kappaavasesa.m vaa" This passage is much disputed. The usual meaning of kappa is "aeon" (but see PED for other senses). DA, however, takes it to mean 'the full life- span' (i.e. in Gotama's day, 100 years: cf. DN 14.1.7) DA also takes avasesa to mean 'in excess' (the usual meaning being 'the remainder'). After some hesitation, and preferring the lesser 'miracle', I have translated the sense of kappa (as I take it) by 'a century'. This ,of course accords with DA. I have, however, adopted the usual meaning of avasesa as making good sense. For the Buddha, the 'remainder' would have been twenty years. PTS translators of the parallel passages have differed in their interpretations. Whereas RD in DN preferred 'aeon', Woodward at SN 51.10 (followed reluctantly by Hare at AN 8.70!) has 'allotted span', and at UD 6.1 he tersely remarks: "Supposed by some to mean "the aeon or world-period"'. It may be noted that LDB has 'world-period"', while Mrs. Bennett discreetly omits the passage. ---------------------------------------------- And Thanissaro Bhikkhu (excerpt below) gives the translation as 'a world period'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ============================== EXCERPT from: Part Three Relinquishing the Will to Live The Blessed One's Prompting <<<<<>>>>> 3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it." 4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!" 5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent. 6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you." "Even so, O Lord." And the Venerable Ananda, rising from his seat, respectfully saluted the Blessed One, and keeping his right side towards him, took his seat under a tree some distance away. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > , The Buddha told Ananda that Bhagava can live longer > > even aeons. > > > ----------------- > dear htoo, > I was surpised by this statement. > By aeon what do you mean? > Robertk 38636 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Dear Christine, Here is a story told by non-followers of The Buddha and they all assumed themselves as colleagues and The Buddha was one of them. They were brahmins. They practised Yoga and Jhana and they lived long such as 100 years, 200 years, 300 years, 500 years, 1000 years, 2000 years and so on. They remarked 'Gotama had to pass away because he did not practised yoga and jhana. Instead he practised vipassana and this took his life. They are attavadis. They like permanency. They said they can overcome lifespan if they want and so on. But this whole message is not valid enough, I think. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Robert, Htoo, all > > In DN 16.3.3 Maurice Walshe adds a note to his translation of 38637 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Nina wrote: Dear Htoo, I am not sure, they are arise and fall away, they are impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha, what do you think? Do you read this in a Commentary?It is true that they are not objects of clinging, the nine lokuttara dhammas are the only dhammas that are not objects of clinging. Under that aspect they are not the second noble truth, the cause of dukkha. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, magga cittas, phala cittas do arise, do fall away and impermanent. But as you said they are not the object of clinging. They are not taken into account as dukkha. This is told in 'sacca- vimutti dhamma'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38638 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread , armed forces, navy --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I like your simile of armed forces and navy, > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, I use this simile on my own. The reasons I use this simile are 1. cetasikas arise with citta and seem to be helping citta. arm force, navy, air force etc are helping the king and his territories. 2. sati seems to be a permanent reminder like a secretary reminding his or her boss. Hiri and ottappa work together and they are powerful. So I appoint them as right and left wing. 3. when I think on alobha, adosa and tatramajjhattata, adosa and tatramajjhatta are actually under the same group of 4 brahmavihara. but alobha is close to adosa. So alobha and adosa are appointed as right and left wing when tatramajjhatta can be appointed as a secretary. 4. among 19, 12 are closedly linked. 7 are separate. Saddha seems the leader of all 19. So I make 7 to 8 by repeating it as a leader of both forces. 12 are divided into 6 and put them as soldiers. 5. I use this for easy understanding and for memory. When we think as 2 separate forces, we can clearly see the mental images of them. Thanks for you remark on this matter. With respect, Htoo Naing 38639 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Robert, Htoo, all > > In DN 16.3.3 Maurice Walshe adds a note to his translation of "The > Tathagata has developed these powers, ... properly undertaken them. > And he could, Aananda, undoubtedly live for a century, or the > remainder of one.' > > Note 400 "Kappa.m vaa tittheyya kappaavasesa.m vaa" This passage is > much disputed. The usual meaning of kappa is "aeon" (but see PED > for other senses). DA, however, takes it to mean 'the full life- > span' (i.e. in Gotama's day, 100 years: cf. DN 14.1.7) DA also takes > avasesa to mean 'in excess' (the usual meaning being 'the > remainder'). ============= Dear christine, Yes, in Theravada there is no controversy, kappa in this context means lifespan (not AEON). It is also said in Vimanavatthu atthakatha and maybe in the Katthavathu too, I can check if there are still doubts. Htoo, do you accept this? Robertk 38640 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi RobM > > If a non-Buddhist reflects on the shortness of life - this thought > is accompanied by panna. k: Sorry boss, Buddha's panna must be anatta and not anicca or dukkha . See Dispeller of Deplusion (forget which part) that only with the arisen of Buddha then Anatta would be known to the worldings. Only through anatta, then there is cessation of birth. > If a non-Buddhist reflects that good deeds bear good results - this thought is accompanied by panna (even if the non-Buddhist > attributes this "justice" to an all-knowing God). k: Nope this thought is not accompanied by panna as I told you in an earlier email and kusala behaviour only leads to kusala kamma and not cessation of birth. If this kind of behaviour can lead to salvation, there is already a lot of enlighted Arahants during Buddha time without Buddha teaching, for eg his two teachers before he was enlighted who both attain high levels of jhanas. Ken O p.s. yup I am likely coming up to KL on Feb for Chinese New Year :) 38641 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Hi Nina and Htoo I dont think this is right, as long as it is citta, it is dukkha regardless whether it is lokuttara citta. As long as there is impermanency there is dukkha. There is also still dukkha in formations Dukkha is not about releasing from clinging only. It is more than that. Ken O 38642 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi Andrew I am not against meditation, I only suggest that meditation is not as simple as seen in the eye. We have to read the fine line very carefully in the suttas :). Yup meditation must have certain level of mundane right view and also a certain level of suppression of sensual behaviour before it can be embark, or not the likelihood of attaching to a self is very high. But it is still up to individual likings to practise. Ken O 38643 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Bhante wrote: Dhamma Greetings Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >Bhante quoted 'the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one >does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent >origination, (Sutta 14 (4) SN )'. >May I ask you which of 'the Buddha 's words say these'; please >provide the original Pali and their meanings? *************** Bhante: If you would read this sutta closely you would be able to see that I did paraphrase the above statement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, now that I am clear you DID PARAPHRASE, I will stop the discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >May I ask you whether all 12 links are seen at a single moment? ****************** Bhante From a meditators view no they do not happen all in a single moment they arise and pass away very rapidly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, now I can clearly see that 12 links do not happen all in a single moment. Manodvara avajjana citta sees anicca, parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta sees anicca, upacara kamavacara mahakusala citta sees anicca, anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta while seeing anicca at the same time likes to release but cannot afford, gotrabhu as it is a lineage changing citta and arammana has a bit changed and it becomes nibbana while still holding seeing of anicca as loki dhamma. All Path arise at magga kala seeing nibbana, penetrating dukkha, releasing tanha. All 4 jobs are done. They are realisation of dukkha sacca, eradicating of samudaya sacca, seeing of nibbana, and developing of the Path. There is no 12 links at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Yes, it is important to see these three characteristics but in the context of the arising and passing away of the links of dependent origination. Not just by themselves. And as far as seeing impermanence there have been many western philosophers who have had that insight. Like never being able to step in the same river twice. Which was observed at roughly the same time as when the Buddha was living. But this insight about impermanence is not by itself enough to bring the deeper understanding of dependent origination. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not devaluing paticcasamuppada. It is really important. But it is recently put in the wrong way. It is not a Path. It is not a method. When you said direct seeing of tilakkhana is not enough, I was shocked and it seems a bit strange. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Contemplation on these were true. But at magga kala, may I ask who > see D.O? ***** Bhante: The process of D.O. sees it. Just before nibbana occurs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, now the axis changes. Just before nibbana occurs. I agree and I will stop this discussion. This 'just before nibbana occurs' is actually many vithi vara before magga vithi vara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is contemplation. This is having a mental review on Dhamma. But > at magga kala, magga citta only sees nibbana and no DO is there at > all. After His attainment, The Buddha had to contemplate on > Paticcasamuppada for a week. > > But magga kala is just a single moment and magga citta does not see > any link of DO. Magga citta only sees nibbana. The arammana of magga > cittas are nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are not DO. > > D.O is contemplated by paccavakkhana nana and later kamavacara > mahakiriya cittas. > > Magga cittas do not see D.O. Magga cittas see Nibbana. No citta can > see 2 objects at the same time. This is citta niyama. Even The Buddha > could not abolish the citta niyama. ****** Bhante: This may or may not be true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why Bhante? Did The Buddha afford to change the order of cittas in vithi vara? There is Dhammapuja mudra of The Buddha's Image showing respect to The Dhamma. The Buddha never worship anyone except The Dhamma. You said may not be true. Why? Could The Buddha abolish the citta niyama? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: >The word wisdom (pan~n~a) here means deep understanding. >Then this sutta goes all of the way through the origination of >these links of dependent origination and then through the cessation >of these links. he spent much time reviewing this and seeing if there >was any flaws in his observations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This is wrong to say. As The Buddha He would not think Dhamma were > wrong. So The Buddha did not need to check Dhamma whether there was > any flaw. > Instead as Dhamma are deep, large, wide and endless, He had to spent >for 49 days before He preached Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** Bhante: Sorry, I did not mean to imply that the Buddha (bodhisatta) thought the Dhamma was wrong. I meant to say that he did check out his insights for their correctness and deep understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You now say sorry, and I accept that. I understand. It is paccavakkhana nana that check Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: Does birth arise at every moment? Does death arise every moment? ********* Bhante: An interesting question. And the answer is yes. Every time dependent origination arises and passes away it is a literal birth and death. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will note this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Does it need to mention when understood? ****** Bhante: Yes and often or until one understands it completely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will note that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > In one of my replies, I wrongly mentioned that Bhante said 'clinging > manifests as tension or headache'. Now it is clear that Bhante > said 'this tightness or tension is craving'. > > I do not believe so. Craving is nama dhamma. Headache or tension are > physical phenomena. They are not equal. > > They are rupa dhamma. They are photthabba rupa. They are gocara rupa. > They are visaya rupa. > > Nama does not equal to rupa dhamma. If someone makes this as equation > this is wrong. > > Craving does not equal to headache. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ************** Bhante: Actually what I have repeatedly have said is the tightness or tension arises in both mind and body and this is "HOW" craving is recognized. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Any tension any pressure is vayo. It is rupa. Tanha which is lobha cetasika is nama dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: So what you are saying doesn't apply to what I have stated. And again tightness or tension does not equal a headache. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even not equal, tension or tightness is vayo and it is rupa. It is not nama dhamma. If rupa and nama dhamma are clearly and separately seen, there is no reason to say tension is craving. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: It just means exactly what I have said it is a tightness or tension and it is subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not talking on degree. For example -200 degree celsius and +200 degree celsius both are tejo. Any tension, any force, any pressure any movement is vayo however subtle they are. It is vayo. It is rupa dhamma. It is not nama dhamma. It is not craving at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Not gross like a headache. Please understand this and stop saying that I am in any way inferring that this tightness or tension is anything other than subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I read Suttas, vinayas, abhidhammas, jatakas, dhammapada, and all other related material including commentaries, I never saw such an idea that 'craving manifests as tension or tightness'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhante: > > Craving is the "I like it ... I don't like it mind" Do you see > the "I" in it? This is a real difference in the way the meditators > insights arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Leave 'I like it' alone. 'I don't like it' is dosa. It is not lobha. > But related to lobha. > > Lobha and dosa never arise together. ******** Bhante: I have never said that they did. I am only describing what craving is in real terms and "HOW" to recognize it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did not say you said this [ that is lobha and dosa arise together]. But you did say 'Craving is 'Ilike it..I don't like it mind'. Did you? I just pointed out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhante quote: > > *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of > jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three > characteristics. > > Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where > does it describe it in the suttas? > ********* Bhante: I said relatively new because it didn't really come into being until Venerable Dhammapala in the 2nd century A.D. came up with it. If you would look at his writtings you will see this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This makes much sense. > > In vithi vara there are kamavacara pancadvara vithi vara, kamavacara > manodvara vithi vara, rupavacara manodvara vithi vara, arupavacara > manodvara vithi vara, magga vithi vara, phala samapatti vithi vara, > and nirodha samapatti vithi vara. > > In rupakusala cittas and arupakusala cittas vithi vara take their > specific arammana or objects. At that time they seem to take a single > object and said to be deeply concentrated. > > But in magga vithi vara which is unlike jhana vithi vara, it is well > relaxed, well balanced, well penetrated, brought insight and this > insight knowledge or wisdom see tilakkhana just before seeing of > nibbana. These vithi varas are well calm and well concentrated and > can be said as vipassana jhana. We do not need words but need to > understand. > > In jhana vithi vara just before appana jhana arise, there arise > kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise as parikamma, upacara, anuloma, > gotrabhu. Then jhana arises. This appana samadhi or jhana is > rupavacara rupa jhana. > > In magga vithi vara just before appana samadhi arise, there arise > kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise. All these kamavacara mahakusala > cittas are vipassana nana cittas. After gotrabhu citta, appana arise > and this magga sees nibbana. As this samadhi is appana, this can be > called vipassana jhana. Understanding is more important. > ****** Bhante: this is commentarial and doesn't necessarily agree with the information given in the suttas and vinaya. The problem is this (as I see it) I am trying to clearly describe the kind of jhana that arises when one follows the sutta instructions and you are answering by the use of the commentaries about a completely different type of jhana. Sometimes you might need to, in the spirit of investigation, try the sutta instructions for yourself . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Suttas are my first reference but not the only reference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: By this I mean that, you will see for yourself if you take the time and effort to try the sutta method of instructions. Then only will you be able to truly understand the differences between the absorption jhana and the sutta instructions jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So what is the difference? What is the sutta instructions jhana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: In This way you can give a direct experience, educated answer. Otherwise this is a never ending disagreement because I am talking about apples and you are talking about bananas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think so. Walking the Path has to be the same for all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Yes they are both fruit but that is about all they have in common. And where in the Buddha-Dhamma does it say that samadhi equals appana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Samadhi is steadiness. It takes the object of meditation. But in a define period, not all cittas are taking a single object. Many cittas arise and fall away. Many objects arise and fall away. If not in bhavana, ekaggatas of cittas are not told as samadhi. But as soon as bhavana is started samadhi arises. Initial samadhi is just preparing for much powerful samadhi. That initial samadhi is preparatory samadhi. Parikamma samadhi. When there is no hindrance at all but cittas are not absorbed into the object. This means it is very possible that cittas can take other objects like D.O, anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc etc. This freedom of cittas is essential for arising of magga cittas. The samadhi that exists in un-absorbed state is called upacara samadhi. It is shakable. Movable. Move from anicca then to dukkha, then to anatta then to each link of 12 links of D.O. There is no hindrance at all and this is upacara samadhi. Once absorbed, cittas become all jhana cittas which run stably in uninterrupted flow like JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ The whole block is not interrupted. When Jhana object is there and citta sees that jhana citta, citta will not see any anicca, dukkha, anatta, any link of 12 links of D.O. People are saying 'commentaries' 'commentaries' 'commentaries'. But without help of commentaries, deep meaning of suttas can never be understood. Just reading of others' translation and arguing is not worthy to do. Deeply explore all existing texts including commentaries, and then practise and then the last thing is to discuss with experienced ones. When cittas are flowing in JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ, the samadhi at that time is called appana samadhi. Appana means 'close' 'very close' 'very very close'. It is so close that citta appraoches to the object and touch each other and fuses into one singleness and becomes unshakable. Once The Buddha was in 4th jhana. There were lightening, thundering, loud noice etc etc. 'Your recluse, did you hear the thundering and lightening?' ''No. I did not hear anything'', answered The Buddha. This is because The Buddha was in 4th jhana. JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ endless and there is no pancadvara avajjana citta can arise at that time. It is not the condition for arising of pancadvara avajjana which otherwise might advert to thundering and lightening. But The Buddha was in 4th rupa jhana. That is absorptive jhana. That is appana jhana and the samadhi in that jhana is appana samadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: This is from another commentary written by Venerable Dhammapala who founded the univerisity that Venerable Buddhgosa studied at in India. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If samadhi is not well understood, mastering jhana is totally not possible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhante quote: > > RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight > into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > Bhante: Again, where is this described in the suttas? It seems to me > that the cause of suffering and samsara is craving and ignorance so > the way to get off of the wheel is by seeing directly the impersonal > nature of the process of dependent origination (as seen through the 4 > Noble Truths). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Once I was asked by Khanti Khema that 'Do you cling to The Buddha's > Teaching?'. > Now I see, someone clings to D.O and persistently arguing as a strong > fact. > > Bodhisatta was shown old man, diseased man, and dead mean. At that > time He noted the implication of change which is anicca and that > change is suffering or dukkha. He got jhana training from Alara up to > akincinnayatana arupa jhana. He got jhana training from Udaka up to > n'evasanna-nasannayatana arupa jhana. These are not the answer and he > went far. After 2 extremes, He adjusted and when balance arose seeing > of tilakkhana arose and this exponentially raised up to asavakkhaya > nana. > ________________ ***** Bhante: This seems to be a case of someone clinging to the commentaries as opposed to someone who is actually taking their information from the suttas and vinaya, then applying it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here what I do see is abhidhamma is left out totally. Abhidhamma is what The Buddha gave back to His late mother Tusita Deva at Tavatimsa Deva realm. The Buddha did not preach any Sutta to His late mother. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > Tilakkhana is main. When tilakkhana are really seen that is directly seen, DO is already included and it does not need to be mentioned. ***** Bhante: Why does this sound like an opinion rather than a Dhamma fact? Please go to the first few answers about sutta 14 (4) SN for your answer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not an opinion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The first 2 discourses are about Noble Eightfold Path ( 1st ) and 5 > khandhas. When 5 khandhas were taught, they were checked with anicca, > dukkha, and anatta. > > This is quite clear in the Anattalakkhana Sutta which is The Buddha > 2nd Discourse. There was nothing mentioned about DO in the 2nd > Discourse. But tilakkhanas were mentioned. > > Again, in the 1st Discourse, The Buddha never mentioned > Paticcasamuppada or D.O. The Buddha first said this extreme was not > good and this another extreme was also not good and you all had to > avoid these two extremes. Then what you have to do was to take the > middle way or majjhima patipada. > > Majjhima means 'middle' 'not extreme' 'balanced'. Patipada > means 'practising path'. This middle way is Noble Eightfold Path or > attha magganga or 8-cetasikas-led-Path. There was not mentioned any > of DO. > > I did not find any DO both in 1st Sutta and 2nd Sutta. > > I remember KK's question again. Khanti Khema asked me, > > 'Htoo, do you cling to The Buddha's Teachings'. > > But now someone clings to D.O. > > Sometimes upadana dhammas are hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Bhante: >Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little different than just seeing them by themselves. >One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Does that sound like clinging? **** Bhante: Or does this sound like someone is attached to views other than the suttas and vinaya that they try to distract from what is being said by saying things like this? Please stop doing this it is not helpful or proper to question me in this way! _____________________ > Htoo: > For me I want to study suttas, vinayas, abhidhammas, buddhavamsa, > jinatthapakasani, jataka, dhammapada. I do not confine to any > particular thing. I do not cling to Suttas. ********** Bhante: You might add how many commentaries you use as well. Again, I am coming from an experiential background and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, it is needed to be careful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: when I find that if I follow the sutta and vinaya instructions in my meditation and the Suttas and Vinaya agrees completely with what is experienced, then I will take the time and energy to show others this - as the Buddha recommended in the Parinibbana Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you are showing others about 'tension' 'tightness in head and mind'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: If you will remember correctly this is the way to see if the Buddha-Dhamma being taught is true and worth following or not. When the sutta instructions are practiced in this way, then a strong confidence arises that is unshakable. The whole of the Buddha's teachings are present in the suttas and vinaya as a guide to help. Some other commentaries may or may not be correct and this is why it is very necessary to try for yourself before accusing another of some attachments and trying to build yourself up as the example for studying, this shows a great deal of pride and is nothing but a low academic trick to distract, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'academic trick'. This is the site where I see there is the idea which is similar to 'milking of the goat'. These indirectly mean.. ..People! You are arguing all the time and you never practised anything. You do not have any real experience. If you think so try to milk that goat as you already know how to milk a goat in your books. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: when the accuser sees for themselves that they have attachments and they are being questioned and shown that there are some wrong assumptions that were made. Please stop doing this. It is not helpful or beneficial to you or anyone else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am trying to make balance view. Flexible way. I am not shouting this is the only right and others are wrong. I am not saying only suttas are right and others are wrong. I did not say I prefer anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhante: > > ..is because of their interconnectedness with each other. They are > truly amazing in this way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > > Dear Bhante, if you are well learned in Sutta, may I very humbly ask > you to explain on DN 15 Mahanidana Sutta? > > There are duties of bhikkhus on lay people. They have to teach what > have not been heard before. > > What are 8 vimokkhas in Mahanidana Suttas? > > That Sutta says the practitioner has to do forward, then backward, > then forward and backward order of these 8 vimokkhas. > > It will be beneficial for all DSG members if you very kindly explain > on these matter rather than talking on headache, tension etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: I do forgive you for saying this because you and your pride, won't take the time to investigate for yourself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is avoidance to answer clearly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: But "don't" say that again! At least, until you have the direct experience of what I am talking about. Only then will you know if what I am saying is true or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Now to clear the suspect please explain on 8 vimokkhas or Mahanidana > Sutta DN 15. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ****** Bhante: Please get a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on this subject it is quite good and does happen to agree with everything that I have so far said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is avoiding to answer. This is avoiding to teach lay people. When asked, not answer. But when do not asked, 'tension' 'tightness in mind and body' are taught. If you have kind heart please teach DSG Mahanidana sutta clearly especially 8 vimokkhas. Teaching of Dhamma is functions of Bhikkhus and not of lay people. Many people read that sutta. They seem not understand it. That is why I am asking you to teach. Please do not copy and paste others writing. Please explain one peace after another. If you do not teach, then you are avoiding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: > Also this is another way of trying to show off. If you are really > interested in this please do it yourself and send it to me then I will > give my comments on what you have written. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, I have clearly mentioned above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the way to check to see if what is being said is correct or > not. When seeing and reading the many descriptions that the Buddha > made in the suttas helps one to gain real confidence because it is > said so many times in so many different ways. But it seems to always > come back to the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination. > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Repetition is because Suttas were preached to different destination > at different time. > ----------------- > Bhante: > Actually repetition is because the Buddha wanted the people who listened > to Dhamma to remember it. He could have talked like we do these days > without any repetition, but he chose to teach by this method. > > May you be free from suffering. > > Maha-Metta always, > Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May you accomplish you job. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38644 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Dear RobertK, Please see # 38636. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > , The Buddha told Ananda that Bhagava can live longer > > even aeons. > > > ----------------- > dear htoo, > I was surpised by this statement. > By aeon what do you mean? > Robertk 38645 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:28am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Robert, Htoo, all > > > > In DN 16.3.3 Maurice Walshe adds a note to his translation of "The > > Tathagata has developed these powers, ... properly undertaken > them. > > And he could, Aananda, undoubtedly live for a century, or the > > remainder of one.' > > > > Note 400 "Kappa.m vaa tittheyya kappaavasesa.m vaa" This passage > is > > much disputed. The usual meaning of kappa is "aeon" (but see PED > > for other senses). DA, however, takes it to mean 'the full life- > > span' (i.e. in Gotama's day, 100 years: cf. DN 14.1.7) DA also > takes > > avasesa to mean 'in excess' (the usual meaning being 'the > > remainder'). > ============= > Dear christine, > Yes, in Theravada there is no controversy, kappa in this context > means lifespan (not AEON). It is also said in Vimanavatthu > atthakatha and maybe in the Katthavathu too, I can check if there > are still doubts. > Htoo, do you accept this? > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear robert K, I will check. It is possible. But see my reply to Christine. With respect, Htoo Naing 38646 From: Hugo Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Howard On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 21:42:24 EST, upasaka@a... wrote: > seems to me, not so much because of "market forces", but because many fellow > academics in Buddhist Studies, in my opinion, simply take the life out of the > Dhamma by taking an approach that is dry, pedantic, and emphasizing of > inessentials. Do you mean like being attached to concepts, definitions, "purity" of language used to express ideas, and then losing focus of what is the real goal of the Buddha's teachings? :-) -- Hugo 38647 From: Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/22/04 12:07:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > L:The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. > N: Cetasikas are not the only condition for citta. There are manifold > conditions for each citta. > ====================== If I could, I'd like to hear a bit more about this. (I could guess, but I'd like to hear from you what you mean, Nina.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38648 From: Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hi, Naresh (and Andrew) - In the following, Andrew gives you what I consider to be excellent, ba lanced advice! Please take it to heart. And, please, be very kind to yourself, show patience, take it slow, learn little by little, especially at first, in my opinion, from what all Buddhists agree are teachings of the Buddha, the suttas. Let your approach be a balanced one, mixing study of the teachings with the moral and meditative training the Buddha provided. Above all, don't be quick to adopt a fixed view of what the Dhamma is about. A key element of the Dhamma is relinquishment, and an important aspect of relinquishment is the willingness not to cling to points of view. You *will* have various views, and they will likely change from time to time, but views are not the same as "knowings" - so don't hold tight, but relax and enjoy a lovely ride on the vehicle of freedom, the Buddhadhamma. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/22/04 12:26:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > Dear Naresh > > Welcome to DSG. It's very confusing sometimes when there are lots of > people telling you to do different things. It was like that at the > time of the Buddha, too. The Kalama Sutta tells the story of a group > of villagers who were confused by it all and the Buddha gave them > some good advice. Have you read the Kalama Sutta yet? > > Just before the Buddha died (or "attained parinibbana"), his > followers were worried about who would guide them after his death. > He told them to let the Dhamma (the Teachings) be their guide. > > And so should you. Why don't you become a "Dhamma explorer". Listen > to all the different viewpoints. Ask lots of questions. Do lots of > reading. Try some meditation. Don't commit yourself in any way to > any viewpoint unless you feel comfortable with it. And even then, > don't cling to it so tightly that you feel you have to defend it or > convert others. Viewpoints can be dangerous things. > > The Suttas say that Right Understanding comes first. A good topic to > start off with, don't you think? > > Finally, don't let the confusion make you depressed. After all, this > is really exciting - Naresh's own journey into the depths of the > Buddhadhamma - something the Buddha himself said was so profound, it > is difficult to see. As your guide, use your own understanding of > the Dhamma - and that is something which will change as you go > along. If you cling to something that changes, suffering happens. > So relax and enjoy learning as much as you can about this remarkable > being we call the Buddha. You don't need a guide apart from the > Teachings. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38649 From: Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hi, Rob (and Naresh) - Just a couple points of slight differing with respect to a post I otherwise agree with: In a message dated 11/22/04 12:34:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > There are two types of meditation: > - Vipassana (mindfulness of whatever object arises) > - Samatha (concentration on a specific object) > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: There is also the view held by some, here and elsewhere, that at least one type of mental cultivation taught by the Buddha involves an in-tandem cultivation of samatha (calm) and satipatthana (establishment of mindfulness), that leads in a balanced, natural way, to an unfolding (both gradual and sudden) of wisdom. This is an approach that aims at a mind trained to be both calm and clear. ----------------------------------------------- > > You should not start meditating (particularly samatha meditation) > without a qualified teacher to guide you. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that first-hand training by a qualified teacher is best. But until that is available, there are good written teachings, in books and available on the internet, that describe safe, simple practices, which can be carried out for short periods. Using the breath, for example, as an "anchor" for quieting the mind as it attends to whatever arises in the mind and body from moment to moment is widely and beneficially practiced. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38650 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Hi Bhante Vimalaramsi > ****Bhante > The reason is because he was talking about one-pointed absorption > concentration and the suttas don't. If you really want to see the > difference then try the sutta instructions for a short period of > time. k: In the Visud Chapter VIII, para 145, the materials are from the suttas. Then in para 189 , there is meditation of breath described in detail in giving attention to (1) counting, (2) connexion.... (8 ways to give attention to) which is now widely used by sangha throughout the world. > *****Bhante > Because they really don't agree with the suttas and vinaya. Nowhere > in the suttas does it say that Vipassana is one kind of meditation and samadhi is another. In sutta # 149 it bascially says that vipassana and samatha are yoked together. They are experienced at the same time. This is why I see some differences between the sutta/vinaya and the Visuddhi Magga. k: In AN IV, 123, the Jhanas and Rebirth gives a good indication that a different type of meditation will lead to what kind of fruits. Before Buddha, one of his teacher reached to the highest level of jhanas - but still he is not enlighted. > ***** Bhante > Again, This is according to some commentaries, but not the > Dhamma/vinaya. k: In the Sumsima Sutta of Nidanasamyutta, it the three characterisitcs are the same as D.O. Ken O 38651 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:31am Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Htoo: Here what I do see is abhidhamma is left out totally. Abhidhamma is what The Buddha gave back to His late mother Tusita Deva at Tavatimsa Deva realm. The Buddha did not preach any Sutta to His late mother. Joop: Some questions, as you ask questions to other members: - Do you mean all books of the Abhidhamma, included the Kahavatthu ? - You didn't mention the role of Sariputta in this story (that the Buddha, coming back from the Tavatimsa Deva realm, told the same or give a synopsis to Sariputta, so that we - early beings - can hear about them too. Is that correct ? - What do you suggest by "The Buddha did not preach any Sutta to His late mother"; my impression is you mean they are not so important as the Abhidhamma, is that correct? - Why did the Buddha this on this way, on that place? - What is the source of this history: the sutta's, the Abhidhamma or commentaries (centuries later)? To give my personal opinion: That the Abhidhamma is told by the Buddha to His late mother is a construction used many times by the Mahayanists who claim that their texts were really sutta's/sutra's spoken by the Buddha but esoteric (secret), for example out of a strategy of 'skilful means' (said more straight: because the normal human listeners to the talks of the Buddha were to stupid to understand them. This anti-dating strategy can be called a Mahayana-strategy; I think that we, Theravadins, don't need it. I will take take this story of the origin of the Abhidhamma as a myth, not a historical truth but a kind of higher truth: that the Abidhamma is the core of the message of the Buddha, on a abstract, not-narrative way. And that it is - on this planet Earth - composed by groups of monks of couple of years (I don't know how much) after Buddha' Parinibbana. And in theory (but I'm not a expert to decide) it's possible to me that these monks in their 'translation' of the Sutta's changed the content a little bit, because it's impossible to translate without change the content at all. I have another question to you, because you are making the discussion with the Bhante so complex that a (Pali-) non-scholar can't follow it: There are meditation-masters who say vipassana (insight) meditation is enough to get liberated, that we don't need samatha (absorption) till a jhanic level. There are other meditation-masters who prefer samatha, the higher the jhanic level the better. And there are masters who say it's impossible (for a real buddhist meditator) to do the one without doing the other. What is your opinion and your advice to do ? Metta Joop 38652 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings Phil, I will make a short reply to some of the things you have said then not expect to carry this thread any further. You said: "I am a bit confused by this, Bhante. This sounds more like a relaxation technique than a way of deepening insight into anatta. It would seem to me that if we seek relaxation in order to overcome stress at that moment, we are coming no closer to liberation from dukkha but are rather using meditation techniques to feel better for awhile. Now, feeling more relaxed physically is a good thing, and the calm it conditions may provide a more suitable atmosphere for insight, but it also seems to me that there is lobha involved with those moments of seeking relaxation from tension. *****Bhante If you have read some of my earlier post you would have seen the Craving manifests as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body. Craving is the "I Like it... I don't like it mind" So when you let go of this tension or tightness in both mind and body there is a short period of relief where mind is very calm and tranquil without any thoughts (clinging) in it. If you do not let go of this tension or tightness even when you are doing the BU---DHO method you are practicing a form of absorption concentration. Please remember that the instructions in the Anapanasati Sutta say "to tranquilize the bodily formation and the mental formation on the in breathe and the out breathe". That short break that you may feel after tranquilizing the mind and body is the direct release of craving and the false idea that there is a personal self. In order to gain any benefit from this it must be done many, many times, Why? Because of our habitual tendencies of identifying with the hindrances when they arise. But when done patiently for a period of time the real benefits will become apparent. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38653 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Htoo, You said "Dear Bhante, now I can clearly see that 12 links do not happen all in a single moment. Manodvara avajjana citta sees anicca, parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta sees anicca, upacara kamavacara mahakusala citta sees anicca, anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta while seeing anicca at the same time likes to release but cannot afford, gotrabhu as it is a lineage changing citta and arammana has a bit changed and it becomes nibbana while still holding seeing of anicca as loki dhamma. All Path arise at magga kala seeing nibbana, penetrating dukkha, releasing tanha. All 4 jobs are done. They are realisation of dukkha sacca, eradicating of samudaya sacca, seeing of nibbana, and developing of the Path. There is no 12 links at all." This is commonly called eel-wiggling in the suttas. And I realize that you won't recognizr it as such. But in many replies you have misrepresented what I said and changed things around to make yourself seem tto know better. This is not Dhamma. I will not respond to you again. Because of this. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38654 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta ***** Bhante Again, This is according to some commentaries, but not the Dhamma/vinaya. k: In the Sumsima Sutta of Nidanasamyutta, it the three characterisitcs are the same as D.O. Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O and Bhante Vimalaramsi, Tilakkhanas are being talked all the time. Even at funerals. But at funerals, DO is not talked. Htoo Naing 38655 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 131 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far we have talked on 7 sabbacitta saadharana cetasikas, 6 pakinnaka cvetasikas, 14 akusala cetasikas, and 19 sabbasobhanacitta sadharana cetasikas. There are 3 cetasikas which act as inhibition. They are virati cetasikas. Virati means 'avoidance'. They are samma-vaca, samma- kammanta, samma-ajiva or vaci-ducarita virati, kaya-ducarita virati, dujiva virati cetasikas. These 3 cetasikas always arise with magga cittas and phala cittas. Other cittas that they can arise with are 8 kamavacara mahakusala cittas. But in these cittas, these 3 cetasikas do not alway arise. Even if arise, only one can arise at a moment. There are 2 appamanna cetasikas. They are karuna cetasika and mudita cetasika. They are called appamanna because they are boundless, limitless and endless. These two never arise together. When one arises, another cannot arise as the objects are totally different. Karuna takes the object who is satta in defect while mudita takes the object who is satta in prosperity. Karuna or mudita can arise in 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas, 3 pairs of upto 4 jhanas that is 3 1st jhana cittas, 3 2nd jhana cittas, 3 3rd jhana cittas and 3 4th jhana cittas. So there are 3 and 4 making 12 jhana cittas and 16 kamavacara cittas making in total 28 cittas can be accompanied by karuna or mudita cetasika. There is a controversial on upekkha sahagatam cittas that is 4 upekkha sahagatam mahakusala cittas and 4 upekkha sahagatam mahakiriya cittas. Commentaries said as they are upekkha cittas they cannot be accompanied by karuna and mudita. So there are 12 jhana cittas, 4 mahakusala cittas, 4 mahakiriya cittas making 20 total cittas are accompanied by karuna and mudita. My view is that all 28 cittas can be accompanied by karuna or mudita cetasika. Upekkha is just a vedana and it is nothing to do with karuna and mudita. In Brahmavihara, upto 4th jhana karuna or mudita can accompany. And in 5th jhana they do not arise. This is right. But in case of kamavacara mahakusala cittas, upekkha is just vedana or feeling and nothing to do with tatramajjhatta cetasika who serves jhana function while there is no sukha vedana and there is only upekkha vedana. There is confusion in this area. Upekkha needs to be studied in detail. Otherwise there arise a lot of confusion. Even some experts confuse in this area regarding upekkha. This is because they do not penetrate cetasikas and their functions very well. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38656 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta There is no 12 links at all." This is commonly called eel-wiggling in the suttas. And I realize that you won't recognizr it as such. But in many replies you have misrepresented what I said and changed things around to make yourself seem tto know better. This is not Dhamma. I will not respond to you again. Because of this. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante, This message shows your will. I did not misrepresent anything at all. According to DSG rules, I deleted unnecessary things. That is all. The problem is that you do not answer and you do not educate people here really. Instead you are introducing your new idea which The Buddha never preached. Like 'tension' 'tightness in mind and body' etc etc. I never take the position of Gurus or great teachers. I just simply discuss Dhamma in its realities. Nothing more than that. I do not advertise my site. I do not invite anyone to my place. I do not advise anyone to donate anything. I do not twist anything and do not twist anyone's message. There is no reason for me to show up that I know everything. These are useless. I never said angrily 'hey moderator, take me out your list'. I just sincerely discuss Dhamma and just share dhamma. What I see is you are always running away. First you appeared at triplegem many months ago but introducing 'I am a American Buddhist monks and I practised vipassana more than 30 years and so on. But soon you got angry with U Min Kyaw and said inappropriate and left for a while. Then join again and left and join again. At dhamma-list when you introduced the idea that there is 'tension' 'there is tightness in body and mind' and so on. I sincerely discussed with you but you ran away and disappeared again. Again, at Y-Happening Yahoo Group, you appeared and asked some questions and when you could not put through your idea then you withdrawed again from that site. Now recently you went round triplegem, dhamma-list and very recently joined DSG where abhidhamma is highly appreciated. You always say 'Suttas Suttas Suttas'. Only suttas are right and only suttas are The Buddha's words. But when Suttas are asked you never answer directly. Bhikkhus do have duties. One of them is to educate lay people especially bhikkhus have to teach what lay people never heard before. When there arise questions, these matters should be sorted out by Bhikkhus if these are Dhamma matters. I asked 8 vimokkhas. You did not answer. Now I understand who kind you are. May you accomplish you job. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38657 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Dear Naresh, Welcome to the list. op 22-11-2004 04:51 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y...: > > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going > on through the messages daily also i was going on > through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same > motto but different view about the enlightment. Nina: discussion is useful, than you can find out what suits you best. How do you feel about studying and reading suttas? How does it help you in daily life? What is your own experience? What is your purpose of the study? Does it answer questions you have about your life, your conduct towards others? What are the difficulties you are facing in your life? What do you think about death? Looking forward to your input, Nina. 38658 From: Hugo Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dear Sara, On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:14:56 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott wrote: > S: Hmmm- haven't you heard that reading this discussion group is the > short-cut to nibbana??;-). That's what they told me in 5 other discussion groups. ;-) > Seriously, I'd recommend also dipping into the > vinaya, abhidhamma and commentaries - even just reading the brief > commentary notes B.Bodhi gives with some of his translations or the ones > he gives in full, such as with the Brahmajala Sutta which Andrew just > mentioned. Thanks for this and the rest of your recommendations, I will certainly try to read all that in this lifetime, I am trying a "balanced approach", basically, I read, once I think I understand something, I put it into practice, once I think I have mastered it to at least some degree, I read something more advanced or different and practice again......once I have mastered a few different things, I read things that other people have done or know, then I start the cycle again. Using an analogy my teacher gave me, and adding a little of my own, let's say that the goal is to prepare Spaguetti, the first time goes something like this: 1) Grab a few tomatoes, squash them into puree 2) Add some spices 3) Boil the pasta 4) Mix and serve You don't care very much about the ingredients, as long as they are more or less "standard" it is fine. Next time, you learn something about tomatoes, and try a specific kind of tomatoes. Next time, you learn something about spices, and try this and that, plus a different kind of tomatoes. Next time, you buy a different brand of pasta (the box you have been using, is probably already empty by now anyway). and so on.....until you can make a perfect Spaguetti! Other people like to go and learn everything about tomatoes, pasta, spices, water, boiling temperature, down to their chemical structure before trying to prepare the Spaguetti, and thats fine, but while I am not a cook by any length, I know that only one part of the secret of the success for a good recipe is the ingredients, the other part is the way it is prepared which relies on the hability of the cook. That reminds me the time I was cooking something and my wife admonished me because I was cooking the ingredients in the wrong order, she said that something (don't remember what) should be cooked first because it takes longer than the other ingredient. Which I think is also an excellent example that just throwing ingredients blindly into a pot won't make a good dish, you need also some knowledge about the ingredients. In summary, everything needs to be balanced. Right now I am in the phase of reading biographies and methods of practice (not only meditation, but everything that is involved in the practice, like where did they live, how did they leave, etc.) of famous and/or respectable monks because I figure that if they have spent dozens of years trying to reach Nibbana, they sure know something that will be useful for me. Plus the way they describe it is not so difficult to comprehend as they write about their life experiences from first-hand experience, well, sometimes it is second-hand as the writer is not the one who experienced it but a disciple. > In another post (which I can't find now), you mentioned that you planned > to start reading some abhidhamma I think. Yes, I intend to do it. I had already bookmarked some of the links you provided because I think it was Sukin (sorry I don't remember exactly who) had already gave some pointers to me. > You've made a great start with your contributions and I look forward to > reading more of them. Thanks, and thanks for your comments. > Do share anything else about your > background and interest too. (even a pic if you have one to spare for the > album on the homepage....). There you go, my cooking inhabilities revealed, but regarding a picture, I am the anonymous Buddhist. ;-) Greetings, -- Hugo 38659 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:39pm Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Bhante: > > Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little > different than just seeing them by themselves. > > One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: Does that sound like clinging? > **** > Bhante: > Or does this sound like someone is attached to views other than the > suttas and vinaya that they try to distract from what is being said by > saying things like this? Please stop doing this it is not helpful or > proper to question me in this way! > _____________________ Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, you are quite correct that it is not proper to question you in such a way. The Buddha taught that one should not question another's dhamma practice, or make specific comments directed at a specific person. That is wrong speech, specifically disparaging: MN 139 "Aranavibhanga Sutta" 8. "And how, bhikkhus, does there come to be neither extolling nor disparaging but teaching only the Dhamma? When one does not say: `All those engaged in the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires…have entered upon the wrong way,' but instead: `The pursuit is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma 1261… Note 1261: That is, extolling and disparaging come about when one frames one's statements in terms of persons, some of whom are praised and others blamed. One teaches "only the Dhamma" when one frames one's statements in terms of the state (dhamma) –the mode of practice-without explicit references to persons. Metta, James 38660 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi, Concerning what Howard wrote: upasaka@a... wrote: With metta, Howard - who must now no longer meditate, no longer think, and for that matter, because of the scripture and authority problems, no longer study!! ;-) ------ KK AT the beginning of my journey, I considered this and decided that if I was going to figure out what the Buddha actually did in his experiment with meditation, I should attempt to figure out HOW things come up in our mind, grab hold of us, tear us appart and why they feel like an actual part of us. My goodness, I found I had been living is great delusion, as if in a dream! I truly wanted to see how this actually worked. The Buddha began his journey with such curiosity too I think and attempted to use as a guideline, observation of How the mind moves from one focal point to another, observing HOW things occured. He went to a couple of great teachers in His day and studied how to sit still and focus on an object and let thoughts that arose go and see what happened. But apparently this wasn't enough and he knew there was more to understand than just this. As I began my guiding teacher, who was Bhante Vimalaramsi, aksed us to simply observe HOW the mind moved and gradually listening to the suttas, we students began to try to observe without our own ideas involved. Not reading to begin with meant we didn't fill our minds with things to think about.Watching the movements without being involved was interesting to begin with. This was not easy to do by any means. It certainly began by "my" saying to "myself", 'Hm? Now how does this work with "ME". How does "MY" mind move? How do "I" observe. Etc..' Of course, in the beginning, I was not in touch with Anatta. It had not been presented to me yet. One is usually not in touch with the very impersonal nature of everything being viewed while going along in meditation. One is still dealing with a I,ME,MY,MINE in everything. Once Anatta was presented through the Suttas and consideration of an Impersonal nature began to take hold, actual perspective within the meditation and outside of the meditation in life began to swing into another position. This was a very interesting phenomena. Gross thinking, while living in delusion of Atta, is done by I.ME. But arising wisdom as a result of acquired knowledge through direct experience observing with an impersonal approach as much as possible occurs a little differently. Hard to describe. In Meditation, one sits and observes only what is occuring, moment by moment, then putting this observation into a file, goes back into meditation again and goes even deeper to what occured first, then before that, and then before that, continuing to file the information after which going to the guiding teacher, explaining the experience and then listening to a sutta is which a similar experience took place that would help confirm the progress moving in the right direction. Thinking in any analytical way such as dissecting what happened, then comparing it to a vast quantity of information and comments stored in one's mind from past reading of reat quantities of commentaries discussing what was meant by what someone said, someone said, someone said the Buddha menat would be far removed from the natural flow of discovery that should take place in this process of meditation. (In reading this I am not sure if I am getting it out clearly enough. I hope so. To say the least, it is a very different kind of experience.) In training I did not have prior experience in Buddhist meditation although I had been in Taiwan for three years and had studied aone form of one-pointed concentration in conjunction with Karate training. I had had other forms of concnetration training for intense focus in sports. Also I had spent two years with a sweatlodge in Virginia sitting for an hour at a time listening to teachings within the lodge. I did not have any reading background of any great nature, only some books handed to me on contemporary views of meditation today in this country. I had also spent a great deal of time living and working in the woods during my life at various times. Teh idea of being a forest recluse didn't frighten me as it would some folks. So here I was beginning to start studying meditation. Bhante Vimalaramsi was my teacher, first beginning in Washington. DC and then in Missouri at the center. In the beginning of my training I was asked to make a commitment NOT TO READ for one entire year minimum. I decided to comply. This probably helped me to begin with an empty cup. I had come to the Buddhist Vihara in Washington, DC at the beckoning of a dream after a distant friend had suggested I look into meditation. I had come with pure curiosity to discover what exactly the Buddha discovered with his experiments ( as I called them), to understand more about HOW mind actually works and to understand if, in fact, there truly was a way to greatly reduce or totally end suffering within this lifetime. I was going to give it a year! It has been over four years now. I am still here. I have been utterly fascinated by the connected nature of these teachings and the clarity with which they can be presented to a student if fully understood by a guiding teacher and how there doesn't seem to be any inconsistencies in the original discourses ( suttas ) concerning the meditation. The interconnectedness in them is clearly seen and very usable today if presented from the beginning in this interwoven way. Of course I balked at the idea of not reading some of the vast amounts of literature written about Buddhism ( including the commentaries) to begin with. But I now understand why not reading is of importance if wanting to repeat the experiment the Buddha performed as closely as possible. In the time of the Buddha, there was not writing and so no one of the folowers was going home and pouring over books. They were instead listening each evening to a subject of Dhamma, hearing it several times in repetition, and then going and meditating in the forest and "directly seeing" for themselves what the Buddha observed and had taught in this discourse or that, coming to there own direct conclusions. The Buddha's idea of teaching in this way was new at the time too. Direct experience, Direct Knowledge, Direct Wisdom, keeping only what was truly useful to the sutdent, that which led to happiness and calm in the direction of the path. The very idea of advice to not accept what a teacher said because he said it seemed preposterous at the time I imagine. The Buddha was stepping away from the idea that the teacher was like a God. You don't argue with a God. You just do it and accept it, even if it doesn't feel good and isn't consistent or contradicts other things the teacher said etc. So, anyway, Howard, thinking can keep us from flowing forward and discovering the deeper levels. If we stop to think too much, we can get stuck. Contemplation of what was seen after a session is fine but a great deal of comparison with this and that commentary and other conclusions of other teachers along the way on what was seen leads us into time spent outside our own Direct knowledge and proceeding further. As adults it is very hard to accpet this. Younger students don't seem to have any problem with it. It is exciting to have observations within a session that match what happened within the suttas themselves or show up in the Vinaya and it's very encouraging, raising the level of the confidence for the student when this occurs. One of the best ways to observe things is to make a commitment to yourself to: 1) go to the pillow expecting nothing. Using the breath or Loving Kindness as a centering object of meditation, just observe what happens as things arise and pull your attention away from the object. Watch HOW it happens.Don't be concerned with what arose content wise. Look at the mechanics. 2) Observe more and more deeply what is happening first, before that, and before that as any phenomena arises. Each time something comes up, does it happen in the same way?? 3) Commit yourself to a totally impersonal view of what is occuring! Notice that "You" do not have ANYthing to do with HOW this is all occuring as it happens. This is the impersonal nature of HOW things work. This is the beginning of seeing things using the actual consequence of ANATTA ( Non-personality) Seeing in an IMPERSONAL way. This practice leads to the release of the PERSONAL way we see things while in Delusion. Great discoveries can come from this. As one masters this observation and makes discoveries along the way, eventually one begins to read the suttas one has been listening to. They then seem to burst out with new discoveries again for the student. As one continues to read in the second or third year or so, one finds a consistency in the writings one did not see before revealing the underlying NOble Truths and links of Dependent Origination and parts of the 8-Fold Path turning up with in each of the Suttas. It's truly remarkable. After the patterns are identified then going into the in depth treatises written on those suttas. I have to be off now and drive from VA to PA. MOre later hopefully Much Metta. KK 38661 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:58pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 132 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, 7 sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas, 6 pakinnaka cetasikas, 14 akusala cetasikas, 19 sabbasobhanacitta sadharana cetasikas, 3 virati cetasikas, 2 appamanna cetasikas, altogether 7 + 6 + 14 + 19 + 3 + 2 = 51 cetasikas have been discussed in the way that they can arise with such and such citta. This is contemplation from the site of cetasika and this method is called sampayoga. Sam means 'well' and yoga means 'associate' 'parallel' 'mix'. So each cetasika can arise in those stated cittas. There left one cetasika which is the most important. Without it magga nana never arises. Without it jhana never arises. This cetasika is called pannindriya cetasika or simply 'panna'. Panna can arise with 47 cittas or 89 cittas. All these 47 cittas are called tihetuka cittas. They are 12 nana sampayutta kama sobhana cittas, 1) 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala cittas 2) 4 nana sampayutta mahavipaka cittas 3) 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya cittas ~~ 12 nana sampayutta cittas. 15 rupavacara cittas 1) 5 rupakusala cittas 2) 5 rupavipaka cittas 3) 5 rupakiriya cittas 12 arupavacara cittas 1) 4 arupakusala cittas 2) 4 arupavipaka cittas 3) 4 arupakiriya cittas 8 lokuttara cittas 1) 4 magga cittas 2) 4 phala cittas 12 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 47 cittas are all called tihetuka cittas. Because they all have 3 hetus namely alobha, adosa, and amoha. Amoha hetu is pannindriya cetasika or panna. Apart from these 47 cittas, other 42 cittas can never arise with panna or panna cannot arise in 42 non-tihetuka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38662 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:28pm Subject: Only transient Representations ... !!! Friends: Can one trust Transience ? Buddha once said: Ananda, any form, in which one delights, will cause sadness, when it unavoidably changes!! Realistically everything -internal as external- is just changing forms, passing appearances, transient processes, evanescent phenomena, temporary images, fleeting manifestations, ephemeral representations all empty & void of substance, self, identity, satisfaction & safety... A miserable mass of pain & danger! Nibbana is the sweet & certain alternative !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 38663 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:03pm Subject: Re: Only transient Representations ... !!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > Friends: > > Can one trust Transience ? > Buddha once said: > > Ananda, any form, in which one delights, will > cause sadness, when it unavoidably changes!! > > Realistically everything -internal as external- > is just changing forms, passing appearances, > transient processes, evanescent phenomena, > temporary images, fleeting manifestations, > ephemeral representations all empty & void > of substance, self, identity, satisfaction & > safety... A miserable mass of pain & danger! > > Nibbana is the sweet & certain alternative !!! > Friendship is the Greatest ! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, When are you going up mountain again? This time it will be so cold. Take care. With respect, Htoo Naing 38664 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:13pm Subject: Re: Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Phil, > *****Bhante > If you have read some of my earlier post you would have seen the Craving > manifests as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body. Craving is > the "I Like it... I don't like it mind" So when you let go of this > tension or tightness in both mind and body there is a short period of > relief where mind is very calm and tranquil without any thoughts > (clinging) in it. If you do not let go of this tension or tightness even > when you are doing the BU---DHO method you are practicing a form of > absorption concentration. Please remember that the instructions in the > Anapanasati Sutta say "to tranquilize the bodily formation and the mental > formation on the in breathe and the out breathe". > > That short break that you may feel after tranquilizing the mind and body > is the direct release of craving and the false idea that there is a > personal self. In order to gain any benefit from this it must be done > many, many times, Why? Because of our habitual tendencies of identifying > with the hindrances when they arise. But when done patiently for a period > of time the real benefits will become apparent. > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, I came across a sutta reference which may further support your position on the importance of tranquility: MN144 "Channaovada Sutta" 11. When this was said, the venerable Maha Cunda said to the venerable Channa: "Therefore, friend Channa, this instruction of the Blessed One is to be constantly given attention: `There is wavering in one who is dependent, there is no wavering in one who is independent; when there is no wavering, there is tranquility; when there is tranquility, there is no bias; when there is no bias, there is no coming and going; when there is no coming and going, there is no passing away and reappearing; when there is no passing away and reappearing, there is no here nor beyond nor in between. This is the end of suffering. Metta, James 38665 From: Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi, KK - I am replying only to one point of your post, KK. In a message dated 11/22/04 4:59:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, khantikhema@y... writes: > So, anyway, Howard, thinking can keep us from flowing forward and > discovering the deeper levels. If we stop to think too much, we can get stuck. ======================= Of course. There is no doubt in my mind about this. My post, written with tongue in cheek, was ironically addressing the opposite extreme, the error of not thinking over matters at all, utterly dismissing our ability-to-consider as something that is nothing but dangerous just because of the possibility of error and misinterpretation. (Likewise for meditation - to dismiss it just because of the possibility of misinterpreting meditative experience.) With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38666 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi Azita, ------------------------- Az: > mostly, our every day life is full of 'control' - at home, at work, on the road - ummmm, I sound like a control freak!, but you know what I mean, I hope. We are actively encouraged by society to be 'in control of ourselves and our behaviour', and on that conventional level, it's not such a bad thing. > --------------------------- I think I know what you mean by, "it's not such a bad thing" Even when we are acting the way society expects, it is generally out of vanity or timidity or some other akusala reason, but we could do worse. :-) Sometimes, of course, a person's 'socially acceptable' behaviour conceals a truly evil state of mind. We can never be sure. Concepts have no inherent nature or substance, and so the conventional story means nothing. --------------------------- Az: > To really understand the no control aspect of life, is heaps more difficult - I need lots of reminders. > --------------- That reminds me of something else you wrote recently. At the time I thought it was rhetorical (a reminder), but it may have been a genuine question (a call for reminder) :-) You wrote: --------------------- > I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that instant? > ------------ Normally, the cetasika that constitutes speech (verbal action) is cetana (as is also the case with mental and bodily action). But the three abstinences, Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood, are cetasikas in their own right. I won't explain further. I need a few reminders myself. :-) You continued: ---------- > All of a sudden, the importance of this Noble 8-fold path occurred to me. I hadn't felt this before. Are these factors in order, or is it just that something has to begin the list? For example, right view comes first on the list, do we have to have r.v. first before any of the others arise? > ------------- Yes! Even though the eight Path Factors (along with other kusala cetasikas) all arise in the same moment, right view is the forerunner. It conditions the others to arise with it (by somethingorother condition), and then they all support each other (by co-nascent condition). I hope that helps. Ken H 38667 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:40pm Subject: Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Htoo, When the Buddha said all sankhata dhammas are dukkha he was speaking in general, conventional terms. In the precise, ultimate sense dukkha means object of dosa. I can tell from here, half way around the world, you are dissatisfied with this concept. Concepts are dukkha. Larry ps: "Conditioned" is not a good translation of sankhata. A closer sense would be "made". As we will see when we get to sankhara cetasikas in Visuddhimagga the meaning of this "made" is "put together". "Sankhata" does not mean dependently arisen or conditioned (paccaya). This compoundedness is an appearance only (nimitta) and is the basis of all error. It is wrongly interpreted as "one" or "wholeness". Sankhara cetasikas "form" all dhammas including concept, but not nibbana, into apparent compounds. The nexus of this phenomenon is the prefix "sam" meaning "with". "With" is the heart of the matter. There is no real "with". I can tell by the expression on your face this concept also is dukkha. L. 38668 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings James, I appreciate what you have said very much. When I was in Burma I was known a Sayadawji and did a some teaching there and gave discourses which were always respectfully accepted. The Sayadaws there always were given vast amounts of respect even if what was said didn't agree with their own ideas of Dhamma. It is nice to see that you have that same kind of respect. May you always be well and happy, may you attain Nibbana quickly and easily in this life! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38669 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi Thank you very much >Craving is > the "I Like it... I don't like it mind" So when you let go of this > tension or tightness in both mind and body there is a short period of > relief where mind is very calm and tranquil without any thoughts > (clinging) in it. Thanks to your encouragement, I have found myself doing this in the last few days. I have experienced the momentary tranquility you are referring to. If you do not let go of this tension or tightness even > when you are doing the BU---DHO method you are practicing a form of > absorption concentration. Please remember that the instructions in the > Anapanasati Sutta say "to tranquilize the bodily formation and the mental > formation on the in breathe and the out breathe". > > That short break that you may feel after tranquilizing the mind and body > is the direct release of craving and the false idea that there is a > personal self. In order to gain any benefit from this it must be done > many, many times, Why? Because of our habitual tendencies of identifying > with the hindrances when they arise. But when done patiently for a period > of time the real benefits will become apparent. Now I can see what you meant. In those moments of release of tension there was certainly a sense of detachment. We do identify with the hindrances. My ill-will or sloth become dominant - there is so much proliferating about them. The practice you are offering will gradually help, I'm sure. Also, it occured to me that while I said that reflecting on realities seemed more helpful to me, the reflecting can only arise when there is calm. On the other hand, I will want to think about the implications of seeking this release from tension whenever it arises. There can be much lobha involved. But the middle way comes in here as everywhere. I found this sutta passage today which reminded me of this thread: "Driven only by fear, do many go for refuge to many places. He who has gone for refuge to the Buddhas penetrates with transcedental wisdom the four noble truths. This indeed is the refuge supreme." (sorry, I can't provide a reference.) I think there is a danger that beginners like myself would use tranquility merely as a way to escape from temporal discomfort, but with the guidance of a good teacher like yourself there would be the setting of conditions for further insight into the four noble truths. Thanks again. Metta, Phil 38670 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > If a non-Buddhist reflects on the shortness of life - this thought > > is accompanied by panna. > > k: Sorry boss, Buddha's panna must be anatta and not anicca or > dukkha . See Dispeller of Deplusion (forget which part) that only > with the arisen of Buddha then Anatta would be known to the > worldings. Only through anatta, then there is cessation of birth. ===== Now I am getting really confused. I was talking about non-Buddhists & anicca and you are talking about the Buddha & anatta. ===== > > > If a non-Buddhist reflects that good deeds bear good results - this > thought is accompanied by panna (even if the non-Buddhist > > attributes this "justice" to an all-knowing God). > > k: Nope this thought is not accompanied by panna as I told you in an > earlier email and kusala behaviour only leads to kusala kamma and not > cessation of birth. If this kind of behaviour can lead to salvation, > there is already a lot of enlighted Arahants during Buddha time > without Buddha teaching, for eg his two teachers before he was > enlighted who both attain high levels of jhanas. ===== It is true that kusala thoughts (with or without panna) lead to kusala kamma and not cessation of rebirth. Ken, we seem to be talking on different frequencies. Please help me to understand your point better. It seems that you are trying to link the law of kamma with paticcasamuppada through panna. Metta, Rob M :-) 38671 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings Phil, I am very happy that you are trying the method that I suggested. As you do this more and more the insights will deepen and your confidence will grow. Good work. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38672 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Larry Concepts are not dukkha because concepts dont experience anicca. Ken O 38673 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:34pm Subject: Reply to Naresh Hi Naresh, You have replied to my DSG message to my email address. That is fine if the discussion is confidential. However, I am choosing to respond to your reply on DSG because you have asked good questions and it would help other people (there are a lot of "lurkers" on DSG who read but do not particiapte often). Replying on DSG also gives other DSG members a chance to chip in their two cents worth. You wrote: As you described the meditation should be practised with qualified teacher, but where do one find one and till you get one what should one go through, is reading theory is enough to understand? My answer: You can probably find a meditation teacher through your local Buddhist temple. Some people find it useful to join in a short meditation retreat (2 - 3 days) during a vacation time. You should read and discuss the dhamma as much as possible (through DSG and other sources). You won't attain enlightenment reading DSG :-), but the background you get from reading and discussing the dhamma on DSG can be of great spiritual value to you. You asked: How will this help in profesional life with lots of complications? My answer: Studying the Dhamma will change your perspective. It is your perspective that guides your thoughts. Your speech and actions are a reflection of your thoughts. Results (professional or personal) come from your actions. You talk of professional life with lots of complications. What role has your own mind played in building up these complications? How much time does your mind spend thinking about these complications (things that are outside your ability to influence) versus thinking about what you need to do now? Studying the Dhamma and practicing the dhamma will help clear your mind so you can be more effective in your daily life. Metta, Rob M :-) 38674 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings again Phil, Your concern about the lobha is not a real problem. There is a kind of wholesome desire called Chanda in Pali. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this word as zeal and is used to describe Venerable Sariputta's experience while he was meditating in every jhana. I am not suggesting that you need to sit in meditation, you will do that whenever you feel it is the right time. All I am saying is this wholesome desire is needed to point your mind in the right direction. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38675 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Rob M > ===== > Now I am getting really confused. I was talking about non-Buddhists > & anicca and you are talking about the Buddha & anatta. > ===== k: Ok I am saying that anicca does not lead to cessation of birth, neither does the knowledge of dukkha or kamma. The only way panna will develop is through Anatta, so non-Buddhist has no mundane right view. Rob M: It seems that you are trying to link the law of kamma with paticcasamuppada through panna. k: Panna is not about anicca and dukkha, it is about Anatta :) Anicca and dukkha are visible, many great non-Buddhist teachers have high level understanding of these two characteristics but these do not lead to cessation of birth so it is not panna per se. k: By the way, the law of kamma is link in D.O. (after moha) Ken O 38676 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Dear Htoo, Thank you very much. Where can I find 'sacca- > vimutti dhamma'? I still incline to see even lokuttara cittas as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. The Sutta (Kindred s. IV) says: what is impermanent is dukkha. Nina. op 22-11-2004 12:38 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > magga cittas, phala cittas do arise, do fall away and > impermanent. But as you said they are not the object of clinging. > They are not taken into account as dukkha. This is told in 'sacca- > vimutti dhamma'. 38677 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 131 ) Dear Htoo, op 22-11-2004 18:01 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > My view is that all 28 cittas can be accompanied by karuna or mudita > cetasika. Upekkha is just a vedana and it is nothing to do with > karuna and mudita. N: Yes. We think of the conventional term sympathetic joy, but it is not pleasant feeling. I agree with you. Ht: There is confusion in this area. Upekkha needs to be studied in > detail. Otherwise there arise a lot of confusion. Even some experts > confuse in this area regarding upekkha. This is because they do not > penetrate cetasikas and their functions very well. N: See Visuddhimagga, IV, about ten kinds of upekkha. It can also stand for viriya or pañña. Different aspects. See also Atthasalini, Book I, part IV, Ch III, 172. Nina. 38678 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Hello again Bhante Vimalaramsi > Your concern about the lobha is not a real problem. There is a kind of > wholesome desire called Chanda in Pali. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this > word as zeal and is used to describe Venerable Sariputta's experience > while he was meditating in every jhana. I am not suggesting that you need > to sit in meditation, you will do that whenever you feel it is the right > time. All I am saying is this wholesome desire is needed to point your > mind in the right direction. Thank you for the encouragement, Bhante. Last evening I used the word chanda to describe the desire I felt to buy one of Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta anthologies. I feel such a strong desire to have one that I have been holding off from ordering it in the belief that I was too hungry for it, that there was too much attachment to the idea of mastering a knowledge of suttas. But with a DSG friend's encouragement, I ordered the book today. I guess there is both chanda and a less wholesome desire (accompanied by conceit) involved in my desire for that book. These wholesome and unwholesome cittas come and go in an unpredictable, uncontrollable way - in the short run, at least. It would be a mistake to think that there is only wholesome desire involved, I think. And I suspect the same thing applies to beginners in meditation - which isn't to say that they should give up meditation because of this. I appreciate the way your presence at DSG is encouraging me to look at formal meditation again. I think now that I have a beginner's grasp of Abhidhamma, any formal meditation I do in the future will be more beneficial than if I didn't know Abhidhamma, as will any sutta study I do be deepened by my growing knowledge of Abhidhamma. (I would disagree with your statement some days back to Nina that "Abhidhamma concepts" are not helpful. Abhidhamma is always helpful, in all areas of Dhamma, I firmly believe, with a faith rooted in examined experience.) Metta, Phil 38679 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > ===== > > Now I am getting really confused. I was talking about non- Buddhists > > & anicca and you are talking about the Buddha & anatta. > > ===== > > k: Ok I am saying that anicca does not lead to cessation of birth, > neither does the knowledge of dukkha or kamma. The only way panna > will develop is through Anatta, so non-Buddhist has no mundane right > view. > > > Rob M: It seems that you are trying to link the law of kamma with > paticcasamuppada through panna. > > k: Panna is not about anicca and dukkha, it is about Anatta :) > Anicca and dukkha are visible, many great non-Buddhist teachers have > high level understanding of these two characteristics but these do > not lead to cessation of birth so it is not panna per se. Perhaps I have misunderstood your point, but I checked Dhammasangani (para 16), Visuddhimagga (Ch XIV, 143) and Atthasalini (page 161 - 162) and I read it differently. For example, the Atthasalini specifically includes all three characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta). The clearest explanation of panna that I have found is in Nina's book, Cetasikas (Chapter 34, pages 317 - 323) which is available on-line as an e-book. Can you help me to understand better by pointing to some other texts to which I can refer to better understand your point? Metta, Rob M :-) 38680 From: naresh gurwani Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi Pls share your method with us also with regards to meditation on breath. We are new to the DSG group. Naresh Gurwani --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings Phil, > > I am very happy that you are trying the method that > I suggested. As you > do this more and more the insights will deepen and > your confidence will > grow. Good work. > 38681 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections/Sanna Hello KenH. Yes, it was a genuine question. Your answer is quite clear for me. I kind of know that the 8fold path is 8 cetasikas and with this half-baked knowledge I have, of much of the Dhamma, sometimes I feel really puzzled about aspects of it. Another one is about Sanna. [seeing as how Sarah is now posting on Sanna]. If Sanna arises with ea. citta and marks just that object of that citta, how come we get this whole mass of thoughts,ideas, dreams etc. More to the point, how come these thoughts & ideas hang together & give us the impresion that all is well, eg. that things aren't completely scrambled and we don't know what we're doing from one moment to the next .....ummm now that I've written that I'm beginning to see how funny it all is. You see, last nite I washed and brushed and set off for a nite shift at the hospital only to discover when I got there, I wasn't even rostered on!!!!!!! My workmates laughed, called me a d...head and told me to go out and get drunk...scarey when you think we are let loose on the public, to care for the sick and dying! This is also a genuine question KenH, despite the side-track. I somehow think I have asked this ques. before, so obviously I don't get it. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Azita, ......snip..... > That reminds me of something else you wrote recently. At the time I > thought it was rhetorical (a reminder), but it may have been a > genuine question (a call for reminder) :-) You wrote: > > --------------------- > > I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and > fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be > Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that > instant? > > ------------ > > Normally, the cetasika that constitutes speech (verbal action) is > cetana (as is also the case with mental and bodily action). But the > three abstinences, Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood, > are cetasikas in their own right. > > I won't explain further. I need a few reminders myself. :-) ....snip.... > Ken H 38682 From: Andrew Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections/Sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: [snip] If Sanna arises with ea. citta and marks just that object > of that citta, how come we get this whole mass of thoughts,ideas, > dreams etc. More to the point, how come these thoughts & ideas hang > together & give us the impresion that all is well, eg. that things > aren't completely scrambled and we don't know what we're doing from > one moment to the next. Hi Azita Fear not. Your question will be raised, discussed and answered at Cooran the weekend after next. I think I know the answer already but will have to think of a way to express it without drawing too many KenH-objections i.e. how to avoid the word "conventional". (-: Stay tuned!! Pity your work commitments (real and imagined) mean you can't make it! (-: Even Rusty is coming this time! Take care Andrew 38683 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Mike (Sukin, Dan, KenO & All), --- "m. nease" wrote: > Thanks Sarah, I think these are good citations for this thread and ones > I hadn't had time to dig up. In the case of the Kitagiri Sutta do you > think the 'reflective understanding' is conceptual…. …. S: I’m not sure which translation of the Kitagiri sutta you’re using. Is ‘reflective understanding’ 'dhammà nijjhàna.m khamanti' in the text below? Usually where it gives 'he memorizes', I think the Pali is 'upaparikkhati' which according to the Buddhadatta dictionary, means 'he investigates or he examines'. For 'nijjhaayati', this dictionary gives 'he reflects'. I am not familiar enough with the Pali to know whether it is conceptual or not necessarily so. From the PTS Pali dict: Nijjhayati1 (p. 356) [Sk. nidhyayati, ni+jhayati1] to meditate, reflect, think S III.140 sq. (+passati, cp. janati), 157; M I.334 (jhayati n. apajjhayati); III.14 (id.). Cp. upa°. Perhaps you can give us your comments or translation of the key Pali terms in the passage, Mike! Btw (and as a diversion from the main thread), of interest is a line in MN50 referring to a group of ascetics with wrong view and practice (BB transl here) which uses the same word nijjhaayati, I think: …. “‘These bald-pated recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman’s feet, claim: “We are meditators, we are meditators!” and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate. "Just as an owl on a branch waiting for a mouse meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a jackal on a river-bank waiting for fish meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a cat by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, waiting for a mouse, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a donkey unladen, standing by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, so too, these bald-pated recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman’s feet, claim: “We are meditators, we are meditators!” and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate.’" *** The Pali for these terms used here is ‘jhaayanti, pajjhaayanti, *nijjhaayanti*, apajjhaayanti’. See also MN108 which uses the same terms in: “‘What kind of meditation did the Blessed One not praise? Here Brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by sensual lust, a prey to sensual lust, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen sensual lust. While he harbours sensual lust within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates…’” *** It continues with a description of ‘the meditation of one whose mind is obsessed by the five hindrances’, to quote from B.Bodhi’s note. Back to the Kitagiri sutta (where of course the Pali terms are referring to ‘samma’ ditthi) – all I can say is that the passage is a description of suta mayaa pa~n~naa, cintaa mayaa pa~n~naa and bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa, as I see it, which Sukin referred to in his recent helpful post on pa~n~naa to Bhante V. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38585 These are all kinds of pa~n~naa/samma di.t.thi, but only the latter refers to the development of satipatthana which is not conceptual. The pin-pointing is not as important as the understanding that these three kinds of samma ditthi reinforce each other. Without hearing/listening/having ‘wise’ access to the teachings (suta mayaa pa~n~naa), there won’t be any wise reflection (cintaa mayaa pa~n~naa). Without the latter, there won’t be any development of the path (bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa). Wise reflection here is the wise consideration about concepts of dhammas (i.e namas and rupas) such as now while we talk. ..... M:>….and that the concept > might be a decisive support condtion (upanissaya paccaya*) for > satipa.t.thaana or even maggacitta? I think this is more or less the > way I've been thinking about it. If so it hardly matters whether it's > called 'sammaadi.t.thi' or not, it is conceptual, unique to the > Buddhadhamma and priceless, or so it seems to me. ..... S: I couldn’t agree more with you and all your comments. I’ve always understood sammaadi.t.thi and pa~n~naa to be synonyms. Suan and I went through some passages in the Vibhanga (2nd Abhidhamma text). For example, here, under ‘anupassati’ : 357. Anupassitiiti. Tatha katamaa anupassanaa? Yaa pa~n~naa pajaananaa….pe..am oho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi – aya.m vuccati “anupassanaa”…. PTS transl: 357. ‘contemplating’ means: Therein what is contemplation? That which is wisdom, understanding, …..absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called contemplation…. *** Of course there are many kinds of pa~n~naa (as referred to in Vism XIV,1) and degrees too. When it refers to sammaadi.t.thi of the fivefold or eightfold path, we all agree there is nothing conceptual about it. A couple more ‘gems’ for you which support your comment above nicely: From Sammohavinodanii 1008,(translated as ‘Dispeller of Delusion, comy to the Vibhanga, PTS, Classification of the Structure of Conditions): “After stating it in many divisions For profitable, unprofitable and indeterminate states, Again, however, by the Best of Speakers The structure of conditions is stated in single manner only By way of decisive support [condition] In regard to result of the profitable and unprofitable, For the purpose of producing the variety Of knowledge about “which states are condition for which”, And [so] since the variety of knowledge Regarding that will never come about in those in whom Is found lacking the Order [of Succession] Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) [Therefore] in accordance with the Order Consisting of Competency-Learning-Reflection-Practice The wise act always in regard thereto For there is nothing other than that which more needs to be done.” Of course, we also read in other passages and texts about the importance of right reflection. For example, in the same text under the Classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness, we read about the six things which lead to the abandoning of ill-will: “1) the acquiring of the sign of amity, 2) devotion to the development of amity, 3) reviewing ownership of kamma, 4) *much reflection*, 5) good friendship, 6) suitable talk.” ***** Metta, Sarah *Katha¤ca bhikkhave anupubbasikkhà anupubbakiriyà anupubbapañipadà a¤¤àràdhanà hoti: idha bhikkhave saddhàjàto upasaïkamati, upasaïkamanto payirupàsati, payirupàsanto sotaü odahati, ohitasoto dhammaü suõàti, sutvà dhammaü dhàreti, dhatànaü dhammànaü atthaü upaparikkhati, atthaü upaparikkhato dhammà nijjhànaü khamanti, dhammanijjhànakkhantiyà sati chando jàyati, chandajàto ussahati, ussahitvà tuleti, tulayitvà padahati, pahitatto samàno kàyena ceva paramaü saccaü sacchikaroti, pa¤¤àya ca naü pañivijjha passati. *** MN 70 (Kitagiri Sutta)[Bodhi translation as provided by Ken O) <> ============================ 38684 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:18am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 56 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (c) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** Saññå is not the same as citta which is the ‘leader’ in cognizing an object. As we have seen, saññå recognizes the object and it ‘marks’ it so that it can be recognized again. This is explained by way of a simile: carpenters put tags or signs on logs so that they can recognize them at once by means of these marks. This simile can help us to understand the complex process of recognizing or remembering. What we in conventional language call “remembering” consists of many different moments of citta and each of these moments of citta is accompanied by saññå which connects past experiences with the present one and conditions again recognition in the future. This connecting function is represented by the words ‘recognition’ and ‘marking’(1). When the present experience has fallen away it has become past and what was future becomes the present, and all the time there is saññå which performs its function so that an object can be recognized. *** 1) See Abhidhamma Studies, by the Ven. Nyanaponika, 1976, page 70, where it is explained that the making of marks and remembering is included in every act of perception. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38685 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard, Sorry for the delay. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > > The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot > be > > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > > thought about rightly or wrongly. > > > ======================= H:> How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing > right > now"? ….. S: There can only be any seeing of impermanence of a reality after wisdom has developed enough, after having clearly understood its nama-quality or rupa-quality. For example: visible object. After wisdom clearly understands directly the reality of v.o. – just that which is seen-, it can become more and more refined and precise, by directly understanding many different realities appearing in different processes. ….. >Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is > impermanence > witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, > there is no > cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? …. Each dhamma has an arising and a falling. Panna precisely understands the impermanence of the reality while it is appearing as a result of the developed awareness of many different realities in succession, I believe. Now we can only think about it or think about cessation of dhammas, but the characteristic of these realities can be developed in the way and order described in the texts. …. > If so, > what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and > a > cessation? …. At what you call the moment of cessation, there is another citta arising, experiencing another object. For example, in deep sleep it may seem like there is nothing, but there are bhavanga cittas and then we wake up and sound is heard or visible object seen. Highly developed panna can know the arising and falling away, the impermanence of that visible object or sound. …. > The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are > problems > with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual > overlay or > filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual > scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. …. Because there is so little awareness or any awareness is of such an elementary nature for most of us, it sounds conceptual (it is conceptual!) when we read about developed panna. But even now, when there is awareness, there can be an understanding of one reality appearing briefly and then its gone. Visible object doesn’t stay, nor does sound, nor does dosa or feeling or any other reality. Slowly as awareness and understanding grow, the ‘momentary view’ filters through or sinks in and there begins to be more and more understanding of the distinction between what is real and experienced momentarily and what is a mere figment of the imagination. I’m not sure if this helps. I think it’s good to know that what we used to take for being some understanding of impermanence is only thinking about it and not the very precise understanding of dhammas. Metta, Sarah ======= 38686 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hi Howard, Sorry for another delay! Thank you for responding to one of the Questions! --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > > experience an object? > > > ======================== > This is interesting. In this question we having feeling acting as > a > subject, and it is experiencing an object > This is not the way people usually speak, and it is also not the > way > things seem to be. …. S: No, but then the Dhamma goes against the current of wordly view. It’s the island in the sea of concepts and conceptual truths. The way things ‘seem to be’ usually is a reflection of our accumulated ignorance and so we need to listen/consider a lot from the teachings;-). …. >The way things seem to be is that a feeling, whether > pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality, is always a mental event > arising from > sense-door contact with an object, typically experienced, but not itself > a thing > which experiences. ….. S: The way things seem to be too is that seeing consciousness last, it’s light all the time, pleasant feeling is very satisfactory and there’s a self behind it all…. In fact feeling is a nama which only ever experiences its object, *except* when it is the object of cittas in a mind-door process. When it is an object and when sati arises, its characteristic of that which ‘tastes an object’ can be known. By also being aware of rupas which are experienced by various sense door cittas, the distinction can be clearly known. ….. > When we say that the warmth of a tub entered after a hard day of > work > feels pleasant, what we mean is that mind experiences pleasantness as a > direct > result of the bodily sensation of warmth. …. S: The warmth rupa is one condition for the bodily experience accompanied by pleasant feeling. For vipaka to occur (the bodily experience and accompanying mental factors are vipaka), there has to be kamma condition too. Also body-sense….. …. >Are you folks saying that when > it > seems that a pleasant feeling occurs, what is actually happening is that > a > knowing mental function called "pleasant feeling" occurs, and that > function is a > type of elementary, emotive knowing of an object? … S: Yes. It accompanies the body consciousness which experiences ‘warmth’ and is a pleasant (bodily) feeling. But this is so very brief and usually followed by many mind door processes where cittas accompanied by pleasant (mental) feeling experience that same object and concepts about it. [Of course, both the mental and bodily feelings here are namas]. ….. >That is, a pleasant > feeling > is not something known, but something that knows, albeit in a particular > way? …. S:Yes, in the body-sense door process, pleasant feeling experiences the rupas along with the cittas it accompanies.. …. > We don't ever ask what someone's feeling is doing. We certainly > never > ask what someone's pleasant feeling is experiencing!! We may ask > someone, > however, how they feel - that is, whether they are experiencing > pleasantness, > unpleasantness, or neutrality. …. S: Usually we ask how *someone* is, how *they* feel etc. We don’t need to change our language, but it helps a lot to understand the cittas, cetasikas and rupas and to see that there’s nothing else at all. One world for a moment and then gone. Someone may be sick, but at a moment of understanding or metta or bodily pleasant feeling, there’s no sickness at all. …. > It seems to me, and to most people, I believe, that to feel is > simply > the ability to experience feeling, where feeling is a mind-door object, > much > as to taste is simply the ability to experience flavor, a tongue-door > object. > So, what I am saying is that feelings are usually seen as certain kinds > of > experienced objects rather than as certain modes of experiencing. …. S: So when we talk about feeling as a mind-door object, usually it’s merely a concept – not any reality. This is why we have to clearly differentiate namas from rupas from concepts, I believe. ….. >But > Abhidhamma > apparently sees feelings as modes of knowing. So, when I say "Oh, what a > > pleasant taste" upon eating ice cream, while it seems to me that the > taste has the > property of being pleasant or that upon eating the ice cream, > pleasantness > becomes an object of experience, Abhidhamma says instead that the > ice-cream taste > is experienced merely cognitively by the function of vi~n~nana and is > simultaneously known by the emotive function of pleasant taste. Is that > correct? …. S: Yes. I think that when you read the suttas again, you’ll begin to see there isn’t any distinction between what they say and the Abhidhamma says. For example, SN 36, Vedana Samyutta, 22(2) the Theme of the Hundred and Eight, explains different classifications of feelings. To take just a couple here: “And what, bhikkhus, are the two kinds of feelings? Bodily and mental….” “And what, bhikkhus, are the five kinds of feelings? The pleasure faculty, the pain faculty, the joy faculty, the displeasure faculty, the equanimity faculty….” “And what , bhikkhus, are the six kinds of feelings? Feeling born of eye-contact……mind-contact…..” ***** Please let me know if anything isn't clear here. I appreciate your following of the Cetasikas thread and your comments on other threads. Metta, Sarah p.s Hope you're feeling better and the check-up goes well. ======= 38687 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hi Sarah, and all I missed this when it was posted but caught it in your reply to Howard. I haven't been able to apply myself to this thread as much as I had hoped but maybe flopping a self-test will get me going! > Questions > > i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > experience an object? I guess only one. The mind door. I have a feeling that's not the right answer. > ii There is a great variety of feelings, but all feelings have > something in common. What is the characteristic they have > in common? They are nama? They are not rupa? > iii Feeling accompanies every citta. Can any kind of feeling > accompany all cittas? No. For example, body-sense which is vipaka cannot be accompanied by neutral feeling. And unpleasant mental feeling cannot accompany kusala vipaka. > > iv Can everybody know the reality of pleasant feeling or of > unpleasant feeling? Yes. I would guess that feeling is the cetasika that everyone *can* know, not that everyone *does* know. > v Why is body-consciousness (kåya-viññåùa) never > accompanied by indifferent feeling? Something to do with that anvil and the cotton puff. > vi Which jåti is painful bodily feeling? akusala vipaka. > vii Which jåti is unhappy feeling (domanassa)? akusala kamma > > viii When an unpleasant tangible object impinges on the > body-sense, can kusala cittas accompanied by somanassa > arise which cognize that unpleasant object? Interesting question! I would say no, for worldlings. How could the arising of unpleasant mental feeling in response to unpleasant tangible object be circumvented if one is not enlightened? There can be a much quicker return to kusala cittas that consider the impermanence of the vipaka, but right away? Well, that was a good exercise to remind myself that I have been neglecting this thread. No need to send the answers along. I will reread the chapter and grade myself. If any of the questions remain unclear I will ask. Thanks always, Sarah, for posting the book. Metta, Phil p.s I will be returning to the "evil thoughts" thread tomorrow or the day after. Thanks again all for your feedback. 38688 From: Suravira Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:45am Subject: The Five Aggregates TV Script For those interested in providing feedback on a TV script to be produced for broadcast, please visit: http://deerparksangha.org/TheFiveAggregates.htm I look forward to your responses. With metta, Suravira 38689 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, Ken (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/22/04 11:37:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Larry > > Concepts are not dukkha because concepts dont experience anicca. > > > > Ken O > ========================== It is true, IMO, that concepts don't experience anicca, but it is an odd thing to say. Here is my take on this: If, by concept, we mean a merely imagined thing [i.e., just the sense or intended referent of a thought/idea such as a tree or house, as opposed to an actually experienced phenomenon such as hardness or sound], then there *is* no concept to do *anything*, including to experience or to actually *be* experienced. If, on the other hand, by concept, we mean not the sense of a thought or idea, but the thought or idea itself, or, perhaps better, the "thinking", which is mind-door content (arammana), then a concept in this second sense does not experience anicca because *it does not experience* - it is not an experiencer, but it arises and ceases as an element of experience, and it is impermanent (anicca). When "I am thinking of a tree", the thoughts, themselves, experience nothing - they just arise and fall as mind-door objects - they are anicca - they are actual, fleeting, mental phenomena, and "the tree being thought of" is merely imagined, which is really to say the "tree that is thought of" does not exist at all, in any way. I look out the window right now and "see" a tree. In fact, what arises is visual object, then mental object "tree thinking", and that is all. No actual tree is either seen or cognized. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38690 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Ken (and Rob) - In a message dated 11/22/04 11:41:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > k: Ok I am saying that anicca does not lead to cessation of birth, > neither does the knowledge of dukkha or kamma. The only way panna > will develop is through Anatta, so non-Buddhist has no mundane right > view. > ====================== I have heard tell there are three doors to liberation, the doorways of anicca (signless liberation), dukkha (wishless liberation), and anatta (voidness liberation), and walking through one opens the others. It happens that Mahayana emphasizes the anatta doorway and Theravada emphasizes the anicca doorway. But there are three doors, Ken. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38691 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/23/04 4:04:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > >======================= > H:> How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing > >right > >now"? > ….. > S: There can only be any seeing of impermanence of a reality after wisdom > has developed enough, after having clearly understood its nama-quality or > rupa-quality. > > For example: visible object. After wisdom clearly understands directly the > reality of v.o. – just that which is seen-, it can become more and more > refined and precise, by directly understanding many different realities > appearing in different processes. > ….. > >Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is > >impermanence > >witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, > >there is no > >cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? > …. > Each dhamma has an arising and a falling. Panna precisely understands the > impermanence of the reality while it is appearing as a result of the > developed awareness of many different realities in succession, I believe. > =========================== I see you as answering my rhetorical question "How is there a seeing of impermanance of 'the reality appearing right now'? " by the last sentence of yours I quote above, namely "Panna precisely understands the impermanence of the reality while it is appearing as a result of the developed awareness of many different realities in succession, I believe," and this means to me that impermanence is understood only by examining a succession of realities, not a single one. Impermanence is "not remaining", and for that to be seen, cessation must have occurred. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38692 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings Phil, Here is a kind of guideline to see if you are following chanda or lobha. Hope it is helpful. When you yourselves know: ’These things are good; these things are blameless; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.' One of the things I look to see in a meditator is if they have a strong desire to really understand the Buddha's Path. The stronger it is, I have found the faster and better the practice progresses. Because they want to see for themselves whether or not this Buddha's teachings is really the way to liberation. It does take this strong type of curiosity and effort to keep mind pointed in this direction. That is chanda! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38693 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 53-Fe eling/Vedana (z) Hi, Sarah - This perspective of pleasant feeling, of neutral feeling, and of unpleasant feeling as three mental functions/operations, three modes of mental processing of experiences, is interesting. Evidently, then, any particular sense-door object "calls forth" exactly one of these operations. (Are there no other conditions for the arising of it? It is my understanding that there must be multiple conditions for the arising of any phenomenon.) But, in any case, this operation-function-processing view of feelings is quite interesting. I copy below your post without additional comments of mine. With regard to your postscript "Hope you're feeling better and the check-up goes well," I thank you for your kind wishes. I *am* feeling better. Tomorrow I go for a thalium stress test. My expectation is that the results will be completely negative, as I'm feeling fine now. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/23/04 4:47:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Sorry for another delay! Thank you for responding to one of the > Questions! > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >> Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > >>experience an object? > >> > >======================== > > This is interesting. In this question we having feeling acting as > >a > >subject, and it is experiencing an object > > This is not the way people usually speak, and it is also not the > >way > >things seem to be. > …. > S: No, but then the Dhamma goes against the current of wordly view. It’s > the island in the sea of concepts and conceptual truths. The way things > ‘seem to be’ usually is a reflection of our accumulated ignorance and so > we need to listen/consider a lot from the teachings;-). > …. > >The way things seem to be is that a feeling, whether > >pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality, is always a mental event > >arising from > >sense-door contact with an object, typically experienced, but not itself > >a thing > >which experiences. > ….. > S: The way things seem to be too is that seeing consciousness last, it’s > light all the time, pleasant feeling is very satisfactory and there’s a > self behind it all…. > > In fact feeling is a nama which only ever experiences its object, *except* > when it is the object of cittas in a mind-door process. When it is an > object and when sati arises, its characteristic of that which ‘tastes an > object’ can be known. By also being aware of rupas which are experienced > by various sense door cittas, the distinction can be clearly known. > ….. > > When we say that the warmth of a tub entered after a hard day of > >work > >feels pleasant, what we mean is that mind experiences pleasantness as a > >direct > >result of the bodily sensation of warmth. > …. > S: The warmth rupa is one condition for the bodily experience accompanied > by pleasant feeling. For vipaka to occur (the bodily experience and > accompanying mental factors are vipaka), there has to be kamma condition > too. Also body-sense….. > …. > >Are you folks saying that when > >it > >seems that a pleasant feeling occurs, what is actually happening is that > >a > >knowing mental function called "pleasant feeling" occurs, and that > >function is a > >type of elementary, emotive knowing of an object? > … > S: Yes. It accompanies the body consciousness which experiences ‘warmth’ > and is a pleasant (bodily) feeling. But this is so very brief and usually > followed by many mind door processes where cittas accompanied by pleasant > (mental) feeling experience that same object and concepts about it. [Of > course, both the mental and bodily feelings here are namas]. > ….. > >That is, a pleasant > >feeling > >is not something known, but something that knows, albeit in a particular > >way? > …. > S:Yes, in the body-sense door process, pleasant feeling experiences the > rupas along with the cittas it accompanies.. > …. > > We don't ever ask what someone's feeling is doing. We certainly > >never > >ask what someone's pleasant feeling is experiencing!! We may ask > >someone, > >however, how they feel - that is, whether they are experiencing > >pleasantness, > >unpleasantness, or neutrality. > …. > S: Usually we ask how *someone* is, how *they* feel etc. We don’t need to > change our language, but it helps a lot to understand the cittas, > cetasikas and rupas and to see that there’s nothing else at all. One world > for a moment and then gone. Someone may be sick, but at a moment of > understanding or metta or bodily pleasant feeling, there’s no sickness at > all. > …. > > It seems to me, and to most people, I believe, that to feel is > >simply > >the ability to experience feeling, where feeling is a mind-door object, > >much > >as to taste is simply the ability to experience flavor, a tongue-door > >object. > >So, what I am saying is that feelings are usually seen as certain kinds > >of > >experienced objects rather than as certain modes of experiencing. > …. > S: So when we talk about feeling as a mind-door object, usually it’s > merely a concept – not any reality. This is why we have to clearly > differentiate namas from rupas from concepts, I believe. > ….. > >But > >Abhidhamma > >apparently sees feelings as modes of knowing. So, when I say "Oh, what a > > > >pleasant taste" upon eating ice cream, while it seems to me that the > >taste has the > >property of being pleasant or that upon eating the ice cream, > >pleasantness > >becomes an object of experience, Abhidhamma says instead that the > >ice-cream taste > >is experienced merely cognitively by the function of vi~n~nana and is > >simultaneously known by the emotive function of pleasant taste. Is that > >correct? > …. > S: Yes. I think that when you read the suttas again, you’ll begin to see > there isn’t any distinction between what they say and the Abhidhamma says. > For example, SN 36, Vedana Samyutta, 22(2) the Theme of the Hundred and > Eight, explains different classifications of feelings. To take just a > couple here: > > “And what, bhikkhus, are the two kinds of feelings? Bodily and mental….â€? > > “And what, bhikkhus, are the five kinds of feelings? The pleasure faculty, > the pain faculty, the joy faculty, the displeasure faculty, the equanimity > faculty….â€? > > “And what , bhikkhus, are the six kinds of feelings? Feeling born of > eye-contact……mind-contact…..â€? > ***** > Please let me know if anything isn't clear here. I appreciate your > following of the Cetasikas thread and your comments on other threads. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Hope you're feeling better and the check-up goes wel /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38694 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hello Naresh, On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:51:36 -0800 (PST), naresh gurwani wrote: > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet [...] > It will be helpful if somebody can guide me > > Awaiting your reply > Naresh One advice, be careful on what you read that is labeled as "Buddhism", there is a lot of "New Age" stuff out there that some people call it "Buddhism". It is better to find out who is who and then read what they write or about them. Ah!, and let's not forget that reading is NOT the most important thing, it is PRACTICING, so instead of reading for 1 hr. a day, read 30 mins. and meditate 30 mins. Ok? ;-) At the beginning I did much, much, much more reading than meditation, now I try to balance it.....well, technically speaking I am still "at the beginning", but you get the idea. And remember you need: morality, concentration and wisdom, sitting on the cushion for 4 hours then go and live without any morality or any mindfulness on what you do, think and speak will not do it. For lay people, I see the cushion as a "training lab or gym" where I develop some "muscle" or "skill" then I use it in my everyday life, but at the same time I am (or try to be) mindfull all-day long fine-tuning how I am doing or gathering information that will be used "back in the lab" to further develop the skill. Taking the 5 precepts help you be mindful. I have found the following websites extremely helpful: http://buddhanet.net http://accesstoinsight.org I would suggest start with: http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/guide.htm Read all the links at: 1. Basic Buddhism Guide http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/schools.htm http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/schools1.htm http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/nshellct.htm http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/whatbelieve.pdf http://accesstoinsight.org/begin.html http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm That's approximately the path I followed (I read many more, plus some printed books too) Your local library/monastery might have some books, some of the ones I have read and recommend: Living Dharma http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570621381/103-6382999-0663831?v=glance The Art of Happiness http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573221112/qid=1100796123/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-6382999-0663831 How to Practice : The Way to a Meaningful Life http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743427084/qid=1100796123/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/103-6382999-0663831 Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0861711769/qid%3D1100796232/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-6382999-0663831 I hope that helps, -- Hugo 38695 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings Naresh, I have done this in earlier post to some degree, but if you want to see these instructions please go to our website at www.dhammasukha.org Then click on the Barebones of either Mindfulness of Breathing or Loving-kindness And you can download them. Also I have written a book called "The Anapanasati Sutta - A practical guide to mindfulness of breathing and tranquil wisdom meditation" which is available from this website. And you can download it as well. This book that I have written has been printed for free distribution and has over 100,000 copies world wide distribution. Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38696 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Howard To me there is only one door, that is anatta. As I said earlier, in the ancient time even before Buddha arise, there is already knowledge of anicca and dukkha as they are visible. They are not pivotal to enlightment, they assist but not pivotal. Only through Anatta then can one be enlighted (there is the difference between Buddhist and non-Buddhist). Similarly in the sutta, it is usually starts with anicca, then goes to dukkha but eventually it is about Anatta. Just like when Buddha talk about the six senses, six contact, feelings etc, will eventually talk about Anatta. Ken O 38697 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard One can see the impermanence of a citta if and only if the panna is developed to that level. It can be seen in one reality as each citta rise and falls. My present panna only allowed me to notice anicca through a sucession of paramatha realities but this is the first step though :) Ken O 38698 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah So are you saying there is conceptual right view or are you saying that conceptual right view is the same as mundane right view. I told Dan D, there is no conceptual right view, there is only mundane right view and supramundane right view. Buddha never coined conceptual right view neither does the Abhidhamma text I have read. Reading, listening and studying about dhamma is not conceptual right view, it is mundane right view. Ken O 38699 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:52am Subject: Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Dear Larry, I think dukkha may well be the object of vipassana nana when dukkha means one of tilakkhana. But I still think that panatta is not dukkha. Because it does not exist ultimately. When we dissect everything out, there is no pannatta at all. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > When the Buddha said all sankhata dhammas are dukkha he was speaking > in general, conventional terms. In the precise, ultimate sense dukkha > means object of dosa. I can tell from here, half way around the > world, you are dissatisfied with this concept. Concepts are dukkha. > > Larry > > ps: "Conditioned" is not a good translation of sankhata. A closer > sense would be "made". As we will see when we get to sankhara > cetasikas in Visuddhimagga the meaning of this "made" is "put > together". "Sankhata" does not mean dependently arisen or conditioned > (paccaya). This compoundedness is an appearance only (nimitta) and is > the basis of all error. It is wrongly interpreted as "one" > or "wholeness". Sankhara cetasikas "form" all dhammas including > concept, but not nibbana, into apparent compounds. The nexus of this > phenomenon is the prefix "sam" meaning "with". "With" is the heart of > the matter. There is no real "with". > > I can tell by the expression on your face this concept also is > dukkha. L. 38700 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Venerable Bhante Vimalaramsi, By replying a post in a different thread I was reminded of the Satipathanna Sutta: Which says (three different translators): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010b.html This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the four foundations of mindfulness. What are the four? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010a.html "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four? And in your book you say: > The Pali Canon makes it quite clear that Dependent Origination > is not merely one strand or thread (sutta) of teaching among many others. > It is the very essence of the Teachings (Dhamma) and is the "only way" to > gain the deep insights (vipassana) necessary to attain liberation from > all suffering. Currently the Pali word "vipassana" is translated as being > "insight or clear understanding into the true nature of all things that > arise and pass away". This definition is very good especially when one > understands "how" dependent origination is a process to be closely looked > at and comprehended. This is the "only way" to gain the insight > (vipassana) necessary to observe exactly "how" this process is the way to > recognize and actually penetrate the true nature of all existence. How do you reconcile both positions? I am really interested, I am not trying to set up an intellectual trap or anything. The main motivation that prompted me to ask you this is that whenever I hear or read "The Only" anything, my red flag goes up, and most (if not all) of the times I have found that it is really not "the only", but one of "the many" (maybe the most popular, the easiest, the better, but not "the only"). BTW, I have obtained several "benefits" by being mindful of the arising of craving, so in that respect I agree with you that craving is one key link (another one is clinging) that helps prevent dukkha from arising if broken. Therefore I am not questioning the importance of D.O. at all, as I have experienced it myself (mmm..well everybody experiences it, I mean I have been mindful of it.....mmmmm..it is really difficult to try to explain these kind of experiences with words, but I think you understand what I mean). Yours Truly, -- Hugo 38701 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Dear Nina, It is in abhidhammatthasangaha by venerable Anuruddha. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Thank you very much. Where can I find 'sacca- > > vimutti dhamma'? > I still incline to see even lokuttara cittas as impermanent, dukkha and > anatta. The Sutta (Kindred s. IV) says: what is impermanent is dukkha. > Nina. > op 22-11-2004 12:38 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > magga cittas, phala cittas do arise, do fall away and > > impermanent. But as you said they are not the object of clinging. > > They are not taken into account as dukkha. This is told in 'sacca- > > vimutti dhamma'. 38702 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 131 ) Dear Nina, Thanks for your kindness for references. I will read them. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 22-11-2004 18:01 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > My view is that all 28 cittas can be accompanied by karuna or mudita > > cetasika. Upekkha is just a vedana and it is nothing to do with > > karuna and mudita. > N: Yes. We think of the conventional term sympathetic joy, but it is not > pleasant feeling. I agree with you. > Ht: There is confusion in this area. Upekkha needs to be studied in > > detail. Otherwise there arise a lot of confusion. Even some experts > > confuse in this area regarding upekkha. This is because they do not > > penetrate cetasikas and their functions very well. > N: See Visuddhimagga, IV, about ten kinds of upekkha. It can also stand for > viriya or pañña. Different aspects. > See also Atthasalini, Book I, part IV, Ch III, 172. > Nina. 38703 From: Suravira Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:03am Subject: Re: Cetasikas study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana Dear Sarah, Howard, et al, [Howard wrote] > This perspective of pleasant feeling, of neutral feeling, and of > unpleasant feeling as three mental functions/operations, three modes of mental > processing of experiences, is interesting. [Suravira] Is not vedana a singular function; not a suite of three distinct functions? I understand vedana to be a cetasika that supports the citta that has arisen in th present moment. Perhaps it can be stated that vedana accords with the object of experience and by so doing conveys an aspect of its (the object of experience) nature as being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Just as the air merely reflects the color of the light being transmitted through it, vedana simply reflects an aspect of nature of the object of experience. Changing the object of experience likely does not change vedana's mode of processing. [Howard wrote] > (Are there no other > conditions for the arising of it? It is my understanding that there must be > multiple conditions for the arising of any phenomenon.) [Suravira] Yes, most definitely - innumerable causes and conditions that are beginningless. > I thank you for your kind wishes. I *am* feeling better. [Suravira] Be well! With metta, Suravira 38704 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/23/04 11:05:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > To me there is only one door, that is anatta. As I said earlier, in > the ancient time even before Buddha arise, there is already knowledge > of anicca and dukkha as they are visible. They are not pivotal to > enlightment, they assist but not pivotal. Only through Anatta then > can one be enlighted (there is the difference between Buddhist and > non-Buddhist). Similarly in the sutta, it is usually starts with > anicca, then goes to dukkha but eventually it is about Anatta. Just > like when Buddha talk about the six senses, six contact, feelings > etc, will eventually talk about Anatta. > > Ken O > ======================== You haven't responded here to what I wrote about signless liberation etc, but that's okay. You have a right to your personal opinion. I don't know, in fact, whether these three doors of liberation are to be unequivocally found in the suttas, though I would expect so, as Mahayana accepts these just as does Theravada. There *is* the following reference to signless release (where 'sign' is understood to mean sign of permanence) the Mahavedalla Sutta (MN 43): ------------------------------------------ The release of mind in signlessness is based on two factors. Not attending to any signs and attending to the no-sign element. Based on these two factors the release of mind in signlessness is attained. On account of what is the duration of the release of mind in signlessness? The duration of the release of mind in signlessness is based on three factors. Not attending to any signs, attending to the no-sign element, and making a determination earlier. Friend, based on these three is the duration of the release of mind in the no-sign element.. Friend, how is the rising from the release of mind in the no-sign element? Based on two factors is the rising from the release of mind in the no-sign element: Attending to all signs and not attending to the no-sign element. Based on these two is the rising from the attainment, release of mind in the no-sign element. ________________________ Certainly the three doors of liberation are mentioned in Abhidhamma commentaries. For example, please see the following from the website http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vimokkha.htm ------------------------------------------ vimokkha 'liberation' (deliverance). I. the 3; II. the 8.I. The 3 liberations are: 1. the conditionless (or signless) liberation (animitta-v.), 2. the desireless liberation (apanihita-v.), 3. the emptiness (or void) liberation (suññatá-v. ). They are also called 'the triple gateway to liberation' (vimokkha-mukha; Vis.M. XXI, 66ff), as they are three different approaches to the paths of holiness. - See visuddhi VI, 8. Cf. Vis XXI, 6ff, 121ff; Pts.M. II. Vimokkha-Kathá. 1. "Whosoever being filled with determination (adhimokkha, q.v.), considers all formations as impermanent (anicca), such a one attains the conditionless liberation. 2. Whosoever being filled with tranquillity, considers all formations as painful (dukkha), such a one attains the desireless liberation. 3. Whosoever being filled with wisdom, considers all formations as without a self (anattá), such a one attains the emptiness liberation" (Vis.M. XXI, 70 = Pts.M. II, p. 58).(1) and (2) are mentioned and explained in M. 43, under the name of deliverances of mind (ceto-vimutti, q.v.). - (2) and (3) appear in Dhs. (344ff, 353ff) in the section on supermundane consciousness (see Atthasálini Tr., p. 299ff). ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38705 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana Hi, suravira (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/23/04 12:14:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, suravira@d... writes: > > Dear Sarah, Howard, et al, > > [Howard wrote] > > This perspective of pleasant feeling, of neutral feeling, > and of > >unpleasant feeling as three mental functions/operations, three > modes of mental > >processing of experiences, is interesting. > > [Suravira] Is not vedana a singular function; not a suite of three > distinct functions? I understand vedana to be a cetasika that > supports the citta that has arisen in th present moment. Perhaps it > can be stated that vedana accords with the object of experience and > by so doing conveys an aspect of its (the object of experience) > nature as being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Just as the air > merely reflects the color of the light being transmitted through it, > vedana simply reflects an aspect of nature of the object of > experience. Changing the object of experience likely does not change > vedana's mode of processing. --------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps. However, while I think that any specific occurrence of feeling is a cetasika and is an instance of either pleasant feeling, neutral feeling, or unpleasant feeling, vedana in general is a khandha - an aggregate. Just as there is not but one rupa or even one type of rupa, there is not just one vedana nor just one type of vedana. ---------------------------------------- > > [Howard wrote] > >(Are there no other > >conditions for the arising of it? It is my understanding that > there must be > >multiple conditions for the arising of any phenomenon.) > > [Suravira] Yes, most definitely - innumerable causes and conditions > that are beginningless. > > >I thank you for your kind wishes. I *am* feeling better. > [Suravira] Be well! > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! :-) ---------------------------------------- > > With metta, > Suravira > > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran Hi Andrew, I hope Ken H prepares a solid paper. Nina. op 23-11-2004 08:30 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Pity your work commitments (real and imagined) mean you can't make > it! (-: Even Rusty is coming this time! > > Take care > Andrew 38707 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hello Phil, op 23-11-2004 12:41 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: >> i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling >> experience an object? > > I guess only one. The mind door. I have a feeling that's not the right > answer. N: No. Lobha-muulacitta with pleasant feeling can arise also in the sense-doors, even when citta does not know much about the object. It is by accumulations, anatta. Thus, six doors. Ph: ii There is a great variety of feelings, but all feelings have >> something in common. What is the characteristic they have >> in common? > > They are nama? They are not rupa? :N: they experience the flavour of the object. (snipped) >> PH: iv Can everybody know the reality of pleasant feeling or of >> unpleasant feeling? > > Yes. I would guess that feeling is the cetasika that everyone *can* know, > not that everyone *does* know. N: They know about them, but for most people they are still my feeling, not just a reality, an impersonal element. (snipped) > >> viii When an unpleasant tangible object impinges on the >> body-sense, can kusala cittas accompanied by somanassa >> arise which cognize that unpleasant object? > > Interesting question! I would say no, for worldlings. How could > the arising of unpleasant mental feeling in response to unpleasant > tangible object be circumvented if one is not enlightened? > There can be a much quicker return to kusala cittas that consider > the impermanence of the vipaka, but right away? N: There can be awareness of the hardness or heat, but it may not be with somanassa. >Nina. 38708 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 115 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 115 and Tiika Vis. Ch. XIV, 115. 115. (c) With the life-continuum continuity occurring thus, when living beings' faculties have become capable of apprehending an object, Tiika: faculties, namely the faculties of the eye, etc. As to the words, capable of apprehending an object, the Tiika explains that the faculties of living beings only gradually ripen. N: In the case of human birth kamma produces at the first moment of life three decads (groups of ten ruupas): the decad of bodysense, sex and heartbase. There are not yet eyesense, earsense, smellingsense and tasting sense. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 249) that later on the eyedecad appears, one week after that the eardecad, one week after that the nosedecad, and one week after that the tongue decad. Vis. text: then, when a visible datum has come into the eye's focus, there is impinging upon the eye-sensitivity due to the visible datum. Thereupon, owing to the impact's influence, there comes to be a disturbance in [the continuity of] the life-continuum. N: The Tiika states: Because of the force of the impact (gha..t.tanaabalena), the bhavanga-citta is disturbed. The Tiika mentions that there is a different condition (for citta), that is, the pleasant or unpleasant object that impinges on the eyesense. As to disturbance of the bhavanga-citta, the words of the Tiika are contained in the footnote 46: ----------------------------- "A disturbance in the life-continuum" is a wavering of the life-continuum consciousness; the meaning is that there is the arrival at a state that is a reason for dissimilarity in its occurrence twice in that way. N: An object, different from the object experienced by the bhavanga-citta impinges on the relevant doorway. The first bhavanga-citta that is disturbed is the vibrating bhavanga-citta, bhavanga calana, and this is succeeded by the arrest bhavanga-citta, upaccheda bhavanga, the last bhavanga-citta arising before the first citta of a process experiencing the object that has impinged. Text Tiika: For it is called disturbance (calana) because it is like a disturbance (movement) since there seems to be a cause for an occasion (avatthaa) in the mind's continuity different from the previous occasion. Granted, firstly, that there is impact on the sensitivity owing to confrontation with an object, since the necessity for that is established by the existence of the objective field and the possessor of the objective field, N: The word possessor is used in figurative sense. It is not a person. The Pali uses the i-suffix, indicating a possessive noun (visayii, having an object). The object impinges on the sense organ so that there are conditions for citta to experience it. Text Tiika: but how does there come to be disturbance (movement) of the life-continuum that has a different support? Because it is connected with it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on the surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly sitting on another grain of sugar moves' (Pm. 478). Text Vis: : Then, when the life-continuum has ceased, the functional mind-element (70) arises making that same visible datum its object, as it were cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. So too in the case of the eardoor and so on. N: The adverting-consciousness adverts to the new object that has impinged on one of the sense-doors. This is a kiriyacitta (inoperative citta, neither cause nor result), and it is called mano-dhaatu, mind-element. The Tiika explains that the visible object which has come into focus has become the condition for the disturbance of the bhavangacitta. It seems that we can see and hear at the same time, but in reality these cittas arise in different processes of cittas. All the time there is disturbance of the stream of bhavanga-cittas and a new object comes into focus. Seeing or hearing do not arise immediately, but first the adverting-consciousness arises which adverts to the object. Visible object or sound could not appear if the stream of bhavanga-cittas were not interrupted. When there is bhavangacitta, nothing appears, and then there are conditions for visible object to appear, but it falls away immediately and there is nothing left. The stream of bhavangacittas is resumed and then interrupted again when a new object appears. It all happens so rapidly, we do not notice that there are countless cittas arising and falling away. We do not notice the diversity of objects that appear and then fall away immediately. ******* Nina. 38709 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Path and Fruit. to Bhante. Venerable Bhante, op 21-11-2004 23:29 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op bhantevimalaramsi@j...: > Then How can you explain the sutta below. This is taken from a book that > I am currently writing. It does have some explanation in it, that may > help. Please forgive the length of this. But it does make what you are > saying about Phala questionable. N: Thank you for the sutta. I read it and also part of the Co I have in Thai, but I did not have time to study this enough. I do not find here info about magga-citta and phalacitta as having an interval between them. I know that in the suttas it is said four pairs of men. In the Abhidhamma: four pairs of cittas: for each stage there is lokuttara kusala citta and lokuttara vipakacitta. The Buddha had the highest degree of Discrimination of language (nirutti patisambhida). Depending on the audience he explained realities by way of conventional terms, by way of similes or by way of ultimate realities. > ***** I could add something to your comment to the Sutta at the end (I have to snip, otherwise it is too long) > ***** Sutta: He might pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the > eye, he might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he might pursue > unsuitable odors with the nose, he might pursue unsuitable flavors with > the tongue, he might pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, or he > might pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. > ***** > What does it mean that the meditator might pursue these things? It means > that, at that time, this bhikkhu (meditator) does not see the process of > dependent origination at all, thus he/she gets caught by craving - the "I > like it, I don’t like it, mind" (which can always be seen as a tightness > or tension somewhere in the body especially in the head/mind) and then > begins to think about the story of why he/she likes or doesn’t like it. N: I have some thoughts on D.O. I agree that this is most important, it is about the cause of being in the cycle and the way to be released form it. I see a close connection between D.O., the four N.T. and the three characteristics. I understand that you cannot get a copy of the Visuddhimagga in the forest. But the Vis. clearly explains about all these aspects as being connected. The Vis. describes all the stages of insight, and at the second stage of beginning or tender insight one begins to see the conditionality of dhammas, and at the fourth stage (the first principal insight) one realizes impermanence and begins to see the D.O. There are many degrees of understanding D.O. and the four N.T. Vis. XX, 97: This is not intellectual understanding, it is insight and insight is not thinking. If people do not remember this they may read all these passages with wrong understanding. Vis. XX, 100: We see that the three characteristics are closely connected with D.O. Also in the suttas we see that arising and falling away is seen according to instant and according to D.O. For example the passages about Assaji and Sariputta: all that has arisen because of a cause has to cease. The three characteristics are always characteristics of realities, they cannot be isolated. Someone may realize the impermanence of seeing for example. As to the Way out of samsara, I see it this way: it has to begin with clear understanding of the realities of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc. the Buddha explained in the suttas time and again. He sees visible object with the eye... There is wise attention or unwise attention. They have to be understood one at a time, no matter in the forest or in a busy street. If not, we see only a whole of different dhammas, a mass, a group, or postures, or the continuity of cittas which succeed one another. It seems that citta lasts. This prevents us from seeing rise and fall of each dhamma separately. We cling to my sitting posture, but in fact this consists of different rupas, appearing one at a time. We cling to my breath, but in fact this consists of different rupas. I think that if we wish to induce calm first, it will prevent us from seeing anatta. Dosa has appeared already because of its own conditions, why not know it as a reality instead of trying to induce calm. Calm with kusala citta is wholesome calm, but there is a danger that people are confused and take clinging for what they believe to be kusala calm. Clinging may be very, very subtle. It makes sense to me to begin at the beginning: discerning the difference between nama and rupa. Nama and rupa are common realities of daily life and they appear now. Bhante: When in fact, this bhikkhu (meditator) has not > expelled craving but is indulging in it. His/Her mindfulness is not sharp > and he/she does not clearly see what his/her mind is doing at that time. > This can even happen to an arahat who has experienced the path but has > not experienced the fruition of arahatship. For one who has experienced > the path only there is still an opportunity for ignorance and craving to > arise. N: The arahat eradicates all akusala by the magga-citta. See above. I have just one more point: > *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of > jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three > characteristics. > > Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where > does it describe it in the suttas? > > ********* > Bhante: > I said relatively new because it didn't really come into being until > Venerable Dhammapala in the 2nd century A.D. came up with it. If you > would look at his writtings you will see this. N: It is in Commentaries edited by Buddhaghosa. Edited, because he used ancient commentaries and these were rehearsed at the councils. Buddhaghosa did not write new things or added things. Robert K. explained this on Triple Gem too. He also wrote a series on D.O. you may have seen. I have read about the two kinds of jhana in the Co to the Digha Nikaya. It is also in other co. With respect, Nina. 38710 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Dear Naresh, I answer your letter on dsg, because others are interested in our exchange as well, if you don't mind. op 23-11-2004 03:38 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y... > As iam still to find > which is the right path for me which iam still not > getting.... Iam still living in past & worried > about my future. > So i need a technique where in i can apply for gaining > more Concetration & dedication. I was reading your > article in chapter 21st about samatha in which you have > described about 5 hindrances .... i have to overcome > all this hindrances to gain a satisfied life and carry > forward dhamma more correctly & with right vision. Nina: This is for all of us, they are all the defilements arising in the life of an ordinary human being. Naresh; Vippasana is a deep study but i think i need to study > more about samatha and meditation procedure to focus to > go ahead. Nina: It is difficult for me what to answer. Samatha and vipassana are both difficult. To begin with we have to understand in all sincerity our different moments of consciousness, citta. We may easily delude ourselves with different techniques, believing that these make us quickly a better person. Instead of true calm, temporary freedom from unwholesomeness, there may be clinging to a pleasant sensation we want to have for ourselves. There are yoga techniques such as relaxation by breathing and these help for our wellbeing. But this is not the aim of the Buddha's teachings which have detachment as the aim. The Buddha taught about moral health, kusala, and immorality, akusala. Each kind of kusala helps us to become detached from selfishness. Generosity or giving: you do not think of yourself but of other's wellbeing. Sila: you abstain from harming others, you think of their wellbeing. Metta or kindness: the Buddha taught us not to mistake selfish affection for pure unselfish kindness. You forget about yourself and only think of the other person. Samatha: the aim is detachment from all the pleasant objects in life, pleasant sights, sounds, etc. By samatha one can temporarily suppress defilements. But we have to know ourselves very well and many conditions have to be fulfilled. to we really want to retire from worldly life? Vipassana: this is specifically the Buddha's teaching nobody else can teach. It is the development of direct understanding of seeing, hearing, defilements, wholesomeness, of all that arises in our daily life. Detachment is the goal, detachment from the wrong view of self and from all defilements. It can be developed in daily life and no special techniques are required. You learn the truth about your life, about yourself, about your defilements and the cause of them. But don't expect a quick transformation of character by it! For the development of vipassana we have to study what the objects of awareness and understanding are, what awareness is, and this can be done by discussions and reading the suttas. It cannot be explained in just one Email. Best wishes, Nina. 38711 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Howard, All Question... Isn't a concept always a delusion? Even a correct concept is "off the mark." The Buddha said..."In whatever way we conceive, the fact is ever other than that." Since delusion generates cravings which lead to Dukkha, wouldn't it be correct to say that concepts are a large part of the delusional process that generates Dukkha? The concepts of 'permanence' and 'self' reinforce the perception (or view) of the same. 'Permanence' and 'self' do not exist even conventionally, but the view and concept of them is the very thing that generates Dukkha (as they initiate craving.) Therefore, it seems that -- something that doesn't exist at all (permanence/self), by way of concept, leads 'actual events that do arise and cease' to a delusional view that generates Dukkhu. My conclusion is: -- Concept is Dukkha in the sense that it is involved in "structuring" Dukkha. TG 38712 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] vimokkha 'liberation' (deliverance). I. the 3; II. the 8.I. The 3 liberations are: 1. the conditionless (or signless) liberation (animitta-v.), 2. the desireless liberation (apanihita-v.), 3. the emptiness (or void) liberation (suññatá-v. ). They are also called 'the triple gateway to liberation' (vimokkha-mukha; Vis.M. XXI, 66ff), as they are three different approaches to the paths of holiness. - See visuddhi VI, 8. Cf. Vis XXI, 6ff, 121ff; Pts.M. II. Vimokkha-Kathá. 1. "Whosoever being filled with determination (adhimokkha, q.v.), considers all formations as impermanent (anicca), such a one attains the conditionless liberation. 2. Whosoever being filled with tranquillity, considers all formations as > painful (dukkha), such a one attains the desireless liberation. > 3. Whosoever being filled with wisdom, considers all formations as without a > self (anattá), such a one attains the emptiness liberation" (Vis.M. XXI, 70 = > Pts.M. II, p. 58).(1) and (2) are mentioned and explained in M. 43, under the > name of deliverances of mind (ceto-vimutti, q.v.). - (2) and (3) appear in > Dhs. (344ff, 353ff) in the section on supermundane consciousness (see Atthasálini > Tr., p. 299ff). > ============================ > With metta, > Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Do you know 8 vimokkhas as described in 'Mahanidana Sutta DN 15' ? With respect, Htoo Naing 38713 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:50pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 133 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, After discussion on which cetasika can arise with which cittas which is called sampayoga, now we will look into Dhamma with more sensible approach. This approach is called sangaha. Sanhaga means 'association' 'combination'. Citta always arises with a group of cetasikas. Citta is the leader. Citta is the king of all mental faculties. Every citta has to arise with at least 7 cetasikas. There are a maximum of 38 cetasikas that can arise together at a moment. It is much more understandable if we see each citta in turn. There are 89 cittas or 121 cittas. We will see them each in turn. Each citta has its associated cetasikas. The combination of citta with co- arising cetasikas is called nama dhamma. The whole mass of that nama dhamma have to depend on a rupa. At this stage, rupa will be left out and rupa will be discussed later on. We have discussed on each citta, each cetasika, and each rupa, and nibbana and pannatta. Such study is like seeing under microscope. Each is dhamma and each has been very clearly explained. Dhamma are 1. 1 citta 2. 52 cetasikas 3. 18 nipphanna rupas 4. 1 nibbana --------------- 72 dhammas These are real dhammas. These do exist and they can be tested and they can be seen under the microscope of panna. ''Dvaasattati vidhaa vuttaa, vatthudhammaa salakkhanaa. Tesa.m daani yathaa yoga.m, pavakkhaami samuccaya.m.'' Salakkhana means 'with characteristics marks' Only these 72 dhammas have objective marks and they are called salakkhana dhamma. We have seen all these under microscope. Now each particle will be put into much more visible units. Citta is pure. Citta is brilliant. Citta is luminous. Citta is to know object or arammana. But when citta is accompanied by many different cetasikas, then citta have many different names. Actually there is only 1 citta in terms of its characteristic. Now different combination of cetasikas with citta will be discussed. This is like molecular level. 72 dhammas are like atomic level. When citta and cetasikas combination that is nama dhamma is considered together with rupa, it will be like a compound in chemistry like H2O. Temporal combination of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma in many moments will be like complex in chemistry like simple protein. When these nama dhamma and rupa dhamma are constructed they will be like a complex special protein like chlorophil of leaves of plants or like haemoglobin of human red blood cells. These quarternary proteins are illusion. They are illusion of atoms of different combination. We have seen dhamma at atomic level. All 72 salakkhana dhammas have thoroughly been explained in the previous posts. In the coming post, we will be discussing at molecular level that is study of citta with different combination of cetasikas, which finally gives each citta their names. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38714 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:59pm Subject: The Yahoo Group DSG's description Dear all Dhamma Friends, If you thoroughly read the group's description, you will see what the group DSG is for. Please see the description. ''A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition. The discussions include matters of both theory and practice, with the aim of developing precise understanding of the realities of the present moment. The group started in Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket. '' 1. All 3 baskets of the Tipitaka ( Vinaya, Suttanta, Abhidhamma ) 2. Original record of the Buddha's words in the Theravada tradition. This original record is record in Pali. 3. Further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of Theravada tradition. 4. Matters of both theory and practice. 5. Aiming developing precise understanding of the realities of the present moment. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38715 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:13pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 134 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Before we start the molecular level discussion on Dhamma, I would like to add something more on cetasikas. Issa, macchariya, kukkucca never arise together and they arise singly and they do not even arise in pair. This means when issa arises other 2 cannot arise, when macchariya arises, issa and kukkucca cannot arise, and when kukkucca arises issa and macchariya cannot arise. Likewise, 3 virati cetasikas do the same with the exception of magga cittas and phala cittas. When kaya-ducarita virati arises, vaci- ducarita virati and du-jiva virati cannot arise and when other one arises other 2 cetasikas cannot arise. Karuna and mudita do not arise together. These 8 cetasikas do not always arise in cittas that they can arise with. Moreover, mana does not always arise in lobha mula cittas and it arises occasionally. By the same token, thina and middha do not always arise. But when they arise they always arise in pair. Altogether these 11 cetasikas ( issa, macchariya, kukkucca, kaya- ducarita virati, vaci-ducarita virati, dujiva virati, karuna, muduta, mana, thina, and middha ) are called aniyata yogii cetasikas. They do not always arise in the cittas that they can arise together. But they arise occasionally. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38716 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Hugo, My Upajaya (spiritual guide and spiritual father) Sayadaw U Silananda, who by the way is very famous in Burma for his knowledge, wisdom and accuracy in translating texts. Says in his book "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" on page 18 of the introduction: " 'This is the only way': To understand the explanation you should know the Pali words for the 'Only way'. It is in Pali 'ekayana'. Eka means one and ayana means way, so ekayana means 'one way'. The word ekayana is explained in five ways. The first explanation is that it is the "single way" that does not branch off. There are no branches in this way, so that you can follow this way with assurance from beginning to deliverance. The second explanation is that this way has to be trodden "alone. In practicing meditation, you are making this journey alone, without companions. You may be in a group, you may be in a retreat, but actually you are going your own way. You are alone. Nobody is with you. Nobody can give his or her concentration or wisdom to you and you can not give your concentration and wisdom to anyone else. So, although you may be in a group, you are really practicing alone. Therefore, this is the 'only way', the 'way to be trodden alone'. The third explanation, is that it is the 'way of the One'. The 'way of the One' means the 'way of the Excellent One', the way discovered by the Buddha. The fourth explanation is that it is the 'only way' because it is the way that leads only to one destination,' i.e. to nibbana. So, when you go along this way, you will surely reach the destination. Nibbana will be the only destination you reach, when you go along this way. The fifth explanation is that this is the 'Only way to reach nibbana.'. There is no other way. The satipatthana or mindfulness way is the only way to nibbana, the end of suffering, the destruction of mental defilements. This may help you a little and also in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta section 19 and 20 of the Digha Nikaya there is a short but detailed accounting of Dependent origination. If you don't have a copy of the Digha Nikaya translated by Maurice Walsh let me know and I will write it out for you. I much prefer this translation to the access to insight translation because the access to insight has the tendency to change some words that will change the true meaning of what is said. Seeing Dependent Origination includes the Four Noble Truths and the Four Foundations of mindfulness as well as the 37 requisites of enlightenment. All of these things are seen and understood when practicing in the way I have described to you. I sincerely hope that this has been helpful. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38717 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/23/04 2:22:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Howard, All > > Question... Isn't a concept always a delusion? Even a correct concept is > "off the mark." The Buddha said..."In whatever way we conceive, the fact is > > ever other than that." > > Since delusion generates cravings which lead to Dukkha, wouldn't it be > correct to say that concepts are a large part of the delusional process that > > generates Dukkha? > > The concepts of 'permanence' and 'self' reinforce the perception (or view) > of > the same. 'Permanence' and 'self' do not exist even conventionally, but the > > view and concept of them is the very thing that generates Dukkha (as they > initiate craving.) > > Therefore, it seems that -- something that doesn't exist at all > (permanence/self), by way of concept, leads 'actual events that do arise and > cease' to a > delusional view that generates Dukkhu. > > My conclusion is: -- Concept is Dukkha in the sense that it is involved in > "structuring" Dukkha. > > TG > =========================== Concepts in the sense of thoughts may or may not be delusive, but they *are* always, at best, indirect modes of knowing. However concepts in the sense of *objects* of thoughts are *always* delusive, for a "hardness" that is thought of is not an actual hardness that is felt. Thoughts that are misunderstood in this latter sense and thoughts that presuppose the existence of what does not exist are delusive. Now, in terms of concepts as actually nonexistent objects of thought, where you write "Therefore, it seems that -- something that doesn't exist at all (permanence/self), by way of concept, leads 'actual events that do arise and cease' to a delusional view that generates Dukkhu," I don't see the concepts, i.e., nonexistent objects, as generating dukkha. They don't exist, so there is no *they* to do *anything*! But the belief in them and the sense of them, and the actions based on that sense and that belief do generate dukkha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38718 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 11/23/04 3:26:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Do you know 8 vimokkhas as described in 'Mahanidana Sutta DN 15' ? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > ==================== Yes, I've seen that. I don't understand the 1st three. Why, BTW, do you ask? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38719 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Yahoo Group DSG's description Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 11/23/04 4:08:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear all Dhamma Friends, > > If you thoroughly read the group's description, you will see what the > group DSG is for. Please see the description. > =================== I wonder why you raise this matter. Were some folks questioning this? Or did some want to censor aspects of it? It does seem that the list members as a whole do exercise all aspects of the description, and very little that falls outside it. It is legitimate, within the guidelines, I believe, to express questioning or doubts with regard to Abhidhamma or the commentaries or certain suttas, is it not? For example, in the past I've seen the Anupada Sutta's authoritativeness questioned. Even though it is one of my favorite suttas, I see nothing wrong with questioning its status. It is truth that we are after, not a set of beliefs. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38720 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Ken O: "Concepts are not dukkha because concepts dont experience anicca." Hi Ken, This concept is unsatisfactory, dukkha. Larry 38721 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Howard: "If, by concept, we mean..." Hi Howard, Can we agree that in abhidhamma "concept" means name, meaning, or imagination as outlined in CMA? Larry 38722 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Htoo, I agree. Whatever I think is just a thought. Nothing to hold on to. Larry ------------------------ H: "Dear Larry, I think dukkha may well be the object of vipassana nana when dukkha means one of tilakkhana. But I still think that panatta is not dukkha. Because it does not exist ultimately. When we dissect everything out, there is no pannatta at all. With respect, Htoo Naing" 38723 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:41pm Subject: Reminder and request Dear All While we appreciate efforts by members to assist with the smooth running of the list, please leave it to the moderators to monitor compliance with the guidelines and home-page description. We can assure you we keep a close eye on things and are active behind the scenes in this regard. We also ask that problems on other lists not be raised on DSG. Thanks for your cooperation. Comments off-list only. Jon and Sarah 38724 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Larry You are basing on our level of understanding. Do not confuse our understanding and what is said in the texts. By asserting our own experience just because we think this should be correct, may not be true as shown in the text. We all like our believe to be true, but it is better to see the texts for explanation and not insisting just because we experience this way, it must be the correct way. Concepts do condition dukkha but they dont experience dukkha. It is difficult to see the fine line what is paccaya and what is dukkha due to our limited panna Ken O 38725 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/23/04 8:36:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "If, by concept, we mean..." > > Hi Howard, > > Can we agree that in abhidhamma "concept" means name, meaning, or > imagination as outlined in CMA? -------------------------------------- Howard: The trouble is that name, meaning, and imagination are three things, not one, and moreover, it is unclear exactly what they are and how they are related. -------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38726 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Ken O: "Concepts do condition dukkha but they dont experience dukkha. " Hi Ken, Is rupa dukkha? Larry 38727 From: Andrew Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew, > I hope Ken H prepares a solid paper. > Nina. Dear Nina What an excellent suggestion. I will be sure to bring it to Ken H's attention. He has gone to the city to visit his ill father for a few days. Alas, I fear Ken H will arrive at Cooran with his usual page of notes written in very faint pencil. (-: But the quality of his questions is always very high and that's the important part! We are also looking forward to Christine telling us more of your discussions in India. Best wishes to you and Lodewijk Andrew 38728 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Howard: "The trouble is that name, meaning, and imagination are three things, not one, and moreover, it is unclear exactly what they are and how they are related." Hi Howard, Are you saying the concept of concept is unsatisfactory? Why does there have to be only one kind of concept? "Howard", "army", "mental image", what's unclear about that? It's just a convention; something we agree on. Larry 38729 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo In a message dated 11/23/2004 2:25:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I don't see the concepts, i.e., nonexistent objects, as generating dukkha. They don't exist, so there is no *they* to do *anything*! But the belief in them and the sense of them, and the actions based on that sense and that belief do generate dukkha. With metta, Howard Hi Howard Here's a quote that may be pertinent to the above... “When it is said, ‘The way leading to the origination of identity [self-view or “object-entity viewâ€?],’ the meaning here is this: a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.â€? … “When it is said, ‘The way leading to the cessation of identity,’ the meaning is this: a way of regarding things that leads to the cessation of suffering.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 884) I am not willing to state that a concept isn't real: only that it does not truely represent reality. A concept of a dragon flying around the moon is only that; i.e., a concept of a dragon flying around the moon. Its not supposed to be a real dragon flying around the moon. (Or arisen elements moving in relation to a firm shpere...if we want to get more technical.) Concepts are a mental object supported by a mental base and conjoined with consciousness. Except for an Arahat, I believe concepts always contain some measure of self-view and therefore are delusion to some degree. Therefore, except for an Arahat, I would have to consider them associated with Dukkha and pretty deeply associatedI think. TG 38730 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:44pm Subject: Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Howard, All > > Question... Isn't a concept always a delusion? Even a correct concept is > "off the mark." The Buddha said..."In whatever way we conceive, the fact is > ever other than that." Friend TG, Could you please provide the sutta reference where the Buddha said, "In whatever way we conceive, the fact is ever other than that." I wonder because the use of the word `we' would include the Buddha, and that would mean he said he suffered from delusion. I have some doubts about this. Metta, James 38731 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:three characteristics Hi Howard, op 23-11-2004 16:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It happens that > Mahayana emphasizes the anatta doorway and Theravada emphasizes the anicca > doorway. N: Oh, I did not know that. Reading the suttas I think all three are emphasized. Nina 38732 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Howard, op 23-11-2004 18:30 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > There *is* the following reference to signless release (where > 'sign' is understood to mean sign of permanence) the Mahavedalla Sutta (MN > 43): > ------------------------------------------ > The release of mind in signlessness is based on two factors N: Completely correct, also the footnotes. I found them in the Path of Discrimination, Khuddaka Nikaya. I am glad you feel O.K. and best wishes, Nina. 38733 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Howard, op 22-11-2004 14:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> L:The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. >> N: Cetasikas are not the only condition for citta. There are manifold >> conditions for each citta. >> > ====================== > If I could, I'd like to hear a bit more about this. (I could guess, > but I'd like to hear from you what you mean, Nina.) N: I am not thinking only of the cittas arising in a mind-door process, but perhaps Larry meant only that. For each citta: the previous one conditions it by way of contiguity-condition. Rupa conditions citta by way of object or by way of base-dependence condition. As to cetasikas, depending on the kind of cetasika: by hetu, by faculty, by magga, by jhana. Cetasika conditions citta by way of association condition, conascent condition, presence-condition, non-disappearance-condition, mutuality. What did you guess? Nina. 38734 From: naresh gurwani Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Dear Nina Where do i read suttas from ?? I understand the transformation is a gradual process, but this process it self is painful as we are used to see, smell, listen , touch & think the different way from our birth. I still think one needs a right concentration to go ahead pls guide me in this manner. You had aksed me before what i think about death ? Death is definte which we cannot change but never really thought about it more deeply. Waiting your feedback Naresh --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Naresh, > I answer your letter on dsg, because others are > interested in our exchange > as well, if you don't mind. > op 23-11-2004 03:38 schreef naresh gurwani op > nar_gurwani@y... > > As iam still to find > > which is the right path for me which iam still not > > getting.... Iam still living in past & worried > > about my future. > > So i need a technique where in i can apply for > gaining > > more Concetration & dedication. I was reading your > > article in chapter 21st about samatha in which you > have > > described about 5 hindrances > .... i have to overcome > > all this hindrances to gain a satisfied life and > carry > > forward dhamma more correctly & with right vision. > Nina: This is for all of us, they are all the > defilements arising in the > life of an ordinary human being. 38735 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo In a message dated 11/23/2004 8:51:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Friend TG, Could you please provide the sutta reference where the Buddha said, "In whatever way we conceive, the fact is ever other than that." I wonder because the use of the word `we' would include the Buddha, and that would mean he said he suffered from delusion. I have some doubts about this. Metta, James Hi James I did fudge it as the quote reads "it" instead of "we." (Although "it" also does not disclude the Buddha.) If the quote is considered though, it does not talk about delusion. It talks to the issue of concepts not representing that "fact of experience/nature." Although the Buddha was able to use concepts without adhering to them or being deluded through their use; concepts used by him also could not exactly express the fact of the matter. I think both quotes below are very interesting in relation to this discussion. The Buddha said – “… in whatever way it is conceived, the fact (actuality) is ever other than that.â€? In the same discourse, referring to the enlightened mind, the Buddha said – “…it does not conceive anything, it does not conceive in regard to anything, it does not conceive in any way.â€? (Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha . . . pg. 911, The True Man, (Sappurisa Sutta, #113) TG 38736 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Is a concept dukkha ? My answer is simple 'no'. Dukkha is something that happens with all sentient beings, is a property of all sentient beings. And a concept is not a sentient being. Only if a sentient being beliefs that a concept is the (ultimate) reality than dukkha does not end with him/her. When I say 'sentient beings' I only know that of human beings. Of all the other sentient beings I can only say something about animals and even about them hardly: I don't know for sure if animals have concepts (as defined in Abhidhamma) in their brains but I think they must have some. Metta Joop 38737 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:36am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 57 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (d) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** If we remember that saññå accompanies every citta, we will better understand that the characteristic of saññå is not exactly the same as what we mean by the conventional terms of ‘recognition’, ‘perception’ or ‘marking’. Each citta which arises falls away immediately and is succeeded by the next citta, and since each citta is accompanied by saññå which recognizes and ‘marks’ the object, one can recognize or remember what was perceived or learnt before. The Atthasåliní mentions as a manifestation of saññå: -‘briefness, like lightning, owing to its inability to penetrate the -object’. Saññå merely recognizes and ‘marks’ the object. Saññå is different from citta which is the ‘chief’ in knowing an object and different from paññå which can know the true nature of realities (1). *** 1) The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 3-5) explains the difference between saññå, citta and paññå by way of a simile. Saññå is like the mere perception of a coin by a child who does not know its value. Citta is like the villager who knows its value. Paññå is like the money-changer who penetrates its true characteristics. ***** [Ch.2 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38739 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 57 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (d) All, If you also received 58(e) in your in box, pls ingore - it went out too soon and unedited. S. 38740 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Larry Your questions whether rupa are dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion, Chapter 1 - Aggregates [9. Herein in what sense is it materiality? It is materiality in the sense of being molested. For this is said by the Blessed One: "And why, bhikkhus, is materiality said? It is what is molested, bhikkhus, that is why it is called materiality. Whereby is it molested by hunger, it is molested by thirst, it is molested by gadflies and flies and wind and sun and creeping things. It is molested; that is why is called of materiality (S iii 86).] MN141, <<"What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering.>> n DN 16 Maha-Parinibbana sutta "And soon after the Blessed One had eaten the meal provided by Cunda the metalworker, a dire sickness fell upon him, even dysentery, and he suffered sharp and deadly pains. But the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed. " Ken O 38741 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Hi Htoo Could you tell me which part in the abhidhammatthasangaha as I cannot locate it. According to CMA on the Compendium of Categories Guide to 35, .... The four mental aggregates of Supramundane plane are not aggregate of clinging because they entirely transcend the range of clinging; that is, they cannot become objects of greed or wrong view. It did not mention they are not dukkha, it just without clinging. Ken O 38742 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: Thanks for help given :) - strength of javana process Hi Lee I have found some material that may shed further light on the strength of the javana process. From the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, in Chapter 4, para 21 (pg 137), [The Course of Impulsion in Absorption] <> the authors used impulsion as the translation of javana the change of lineage is about the change of worldings to noble ones Ken O 38743 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? Let me put my question straight, I know Htoo likes that: Can animals have dukkha ? Which of the citta's and which of the cetasika's apply to animals ? Metta Joop 38744 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 133 ) Dear Htoo, You continue to write excellent posts in the Dhamma Thread series. Like Mike, I thought the ones on pannatti were very good and all the cetasikas as I mentioned before. Also on rupas too. Please continue the series on and on! Any comments here are mere nit-picking and not meant to detract from the quality of the thread. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dhamma are > > 1. 1 citta > 2. 52 cetasikas > 3. 18 nipphanna rupas > 4. 1 nibbana > --------------- > 72 dhammas > > These are real dhammas. These do exist and they can be tested and > they can be seen under the microscope of panna. …. S: There seems to be a suggestion here and in an earlier post that anipphanna rupas are not ‘real’ dhammas or paramattha dhammas. Even though they are not ‘salakkhana’ does not mean they are not ‘real’. I discussed this same point in detail with B.Bodhi and we both agreed in the end. He even mentioned there’d be a change in the next edition of CMA in this regard. All 28 rupas are paramattha dhammas as I understand, even though the 4 lakkhana rupas are characteristics of other rupas. You also mentioned in #38131, that these 10 rupas ‘are not conditioned.’ Here you said they are paramattha and ‘do have their own characteristics. They are 1 pariccheda rupa, 2 vinatti rupas, 3 lahutadi rupas, and 4 lakkhana rupas.’ You may wish to clarify. It’s a difficult area. You mentioned the 4 lakkhana rupas are not influenced by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara as their causes, but as characteristics of other rupas which are conditioned by these causes, I believe they are said to be conditioned dhammas and (indirectly) conditioned by the same causes. The same with akasa rupa – it’s conditioned as a result of delimiting the rupas which are conditioned by these causes. We can check the texts if we’re not clear or Nina will help us. I’m a bit rushed now to look up anything. Upekkha (yr post #38655)– there have been discussions on the various meanings. See ‘Upekkha’ in U.P. Also, Nina’s chapter in ‘Cetasikas’ under ‘Equanimity- tatramajjhattataa’ is very helpful. Equanimity as a brahma vihara is an aspect of this cetasika with other beings as objects and should not be confused with upekkha as neutral feeling. Lots of confusion as you say in this regard. I understand that karuna and mudita can arise with either pleasant feeling or neutral feeling just as you say Under conditions (yr post #38570 to Larry), you mentioned pannatti under both arammana paccaya and arammanadhipati paccaya. I don’t believe the latter can include pannatti? Finally, I think it’s only a matter of language use, but a couple of times, such as in #38159, you’ve referred to ‘nibbana is only present in arahats or anagams while they are in nirodha samapatti’.. Do you mean that nibbana is only *experienced* by the arahats and anagamis……? In which case, I agree. Also in the same post, you refer to anupadisesa nibbana as being a ‘state’. I’m not sure we can refer to it as a state, rather a final cessation of all conditioned dhammas. A little later you again refer to it as ‘the state all Buddhists are trying to attain……’. Not sure I’d put it like this, but I understand your point. Another finally;-) – in the same post and earlier in one as well, you refer to ‘sankhata dhatu are those whose arising and existence are influenced by four causes namely kamma, citta, utu, and ahara’. You then rightly explain why nibbana is the asankhata dhatu. Surely we can only refer to all rupa dhatus as as being conditioned by one of these four factors? Again, Htoo, I greatly appreciate and benefit from this long thread and all the detail and research you include. I also understood the points you were making in another thread on the ti-lakkhana and nibbana. Metta and sadhu to you too! Sarah p.s when we finally upload the India recordings, I think you'd find them very interesting to listen to. ======== 38745 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 133 ) Dear Htoo, --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: There seems to be a suggestion here and in an earlier post that > anipphanna rupas are not ‘real’ dhammas or paramattha dhammas ... I just found two of the posts I was referring to. Please see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33803 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31976 Metta, Sarah ====== 38746 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 57 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (d) Hello all > 1) The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 3-5) explains the difference between saññå, > citta and paññå by way of a simile. Saññå is like the mere perception of a > coin by a child who does not know its value. Citta is like the villager > who knows its value. Paññå is like the money-changer who penetrates its > true characteristics. This is a bit off topic, but.... I wonder how we could introduce yoniso-manisakara (sp?) into this simile? Would yoniso m be like the wise man who comes along and sees the money changer offering the coin and feels no particular interest in it? Or does yoniso m have to arise before panna - so yoniso m would be like the wise husband of the money changer who stays by her side to remind her not to get worked up by being near all that money? So she can look at the coin in a calm way and penetrate its characteristics without getting caught up in greed? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 38747 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/23/04 11:31:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "The trouble is that name, meaning, and imagination are three > things, not one, and moreover, it is unclear exactly what they are and > how they are related." > > Hi Howard, > > Are you saying the concept of concept is unsatisfactory? Why does there > have to be only one kind of concept? "Howard", "army", "mental image", > what's unclear about that? It's just a convention; something we agree > on. > > Larry > > ========================= If you like that tripartite definition, it's ok with me. But all three are vague concepts to me to being with. Each instance of name is, itself just a concept. And so on. My feeling is that if, after we give a definition of an idea, and we look at each aspect of that definition, and see that just as much defining still remains to be done at that point, then it becomes clear that the original idea is too vague to be worthwhile to pursue. I'm pretty much willing to say that I don't know what concepts are. It almost seems that there are no such things. Thinking does occur, and perhaps that thinking involves a flow of elementary thoughts, and part of that thinking involves believing that the thoughts, stand for some things called "concepts," but I guess all there actually are are the thoughts, themselves. To me, an elementary thought (as mind-door object) is clearer to me than a name. If you think about it, any so called name is, itself, an abstraction that is ungraspable - at least I can't get my hands on it! I'm starting to become content with realizing that there is thinking, and there are seeing, and tasting, and well ... you know. While I will continue to use sounds and strings of symbols to communicate my thinking, I think I'll leave the nature of concepts to someone else. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38748 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/23/04 11:44:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > I am not willing to state that a concept isn't real: only that it does not > truely represent reality. A concept of a dragon flying around the moon is > only > that; i.e., a concept of a dragon flying around the moon. Its not supposed > to > be a real dragon flying around the moon. (Or arisen elements moving in > relation to a firm shpere...if we want to get more technical.) > > Concepts are a mental object supported by a mental base and conjoined with > consciousness. Except for an Arahat, I believe concepts always contain some > > measure of self-view and therefore are delusion to some degree. Therefore, > except for an Arahat, I would have to consider them associated with Dukkha > and > pretty deeply associatedI think. > > ============================ I don't know what a concept of a dragon flying around the moon is. I do know that we can do some thinking that we describe as thinking about a dragon flying around the moon. In the process of that thinking, enumerable mental images go by. Where and what the concept is I cant say. I think that in actuality, there are just the mental images and other thoughts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38749 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/24/04 12:07:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 22-11-2004 14:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >>L:The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. > >>N: Cetasikas are not the only condition for citta. There are manifold > >>conditions for each citta. > >> > >====================== > >If I could, I'd like to hear a bit more about this. (I could guess, > >but I'd like to hear from you what you mean, Nina.) > N: I am not thinking only of the cittas arising in a mind-door process, but > perhaps Larry meant only that. For each citta: the previous one conditions > it by way of contiguity-condition. Rupa conditions citta by way of object or > by way of base-dependence condition. As to cetasikas, depending on the kind > of cetasika: by hetu, by faculty, by magga, by jhana. Cetasika conditions > citta by way of association condition, conascent condition, > presence-condition, non-disappearance-condition, mutuality. > What did you guess? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: My guessing went along the lines you gave, but, of course, without the fine detail. I guess I was confused by Larry's statement "The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas." Larry, did you mean something that remians unanswered by Nina's reply? ---------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38750 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi Howard, and all > > Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala > > where there is none > > is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > > loving-kindness. It > > seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. > ========================= > Howard: I don't think you should be so sure about this. Phil: Yes, you're right. And I'm not certain about it, though I said I was above. No doubt, though, that for the time being at least it doesn't feel right. After all, the Brahma-Viharas are "divine abodes." If we were able to turn them on at will, it would seem to me that they wouldn't be very refined at all. How do we know when we are generating metta whether we are not just generating a sense of well being for ourselves? I don't think the Buddha wanted to teach coziness and well-being available at the drop of a cushion. But you're right, certainly I am not sure. I'm staying open to all new understanding. I may return to metta meditation. For the time being, I am encouraged when metta arises unexpectedly. Today, for example. I was in a coffee shop trying to concentrate on some difficult study materials. An elderly man sitting next to me was obviously interested in me (as a non-Japanese) and I secretly wished that he would *not* unterrupt me to chat. Tried to send out unfriendly vibes. But he did interrupt me. And lo and behold metta arose and I had a friendly chat with him when moments earlier I'd been feeling a bit hostile towards him. That's the kind of metta I'm interested in these days. The metta that arises in a conditioned way, unpredictably. > With regard to these thoughts and even desires > for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you would > do well to consider the following: > 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. > 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, > their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. Phil: This is very encouraging. Thank you. My past experience with another form of unwholesome thought gives me reason to be hopeful. As Rob M says, train the puppy, not control it. > 3) Also, by being mindful of thoughts and guarding the mind door, as > you (admirably) have been doing, you can avoid concocting further and > embellishing such thoughts, and, by seeing them clearly and quickly dropping them as > one would quickly drop poisonous snakes, you will see them leave as soon as they > come. Phil: I think this is why I am so interested in yoniso manisakaara (sp?) these days. When there is wise attention to attractive objects, greed does not proliferate. When there is wise attention to unpleasant objects, aversion does not proliferate. It seems to me that wise attention is not as refined or rare as panna. There are countless moments in each day when I find myself in a train of thought, and clearly see where it's going, and have an opportunity to circumvent it, and sometimes do, and often don't. It is panna, I guess, that will more often circumvent the unwholesome train of thought. A bit of the first right effort arising here, a bit of the second right effort arising there. And faith that more and more right effort will be conditioned thereby. I do feel confident about that, and grateful to the Budddha. As Nina writes in ADL, we do not have to be distressed when we become aware of our defilements. Instead it can be a cause for gratitude to the Buddha who teaches the way to liberation. >And by the process of repeatedly seeing and letting go, the mind will > become habituated to such relinquishment, and soon these thoughts, as if they > were sentient entities, will "realize" that they are unwanted guests, and they > will show up less and less often at your mental doorstep. Phil: Yes, you're right. This does happen. Also the kusala cetasikas hiri and ottappa arise in a more realizable way, perhaps? There is a moment of hesitation, of shame, of fear of the kammic implications. Just a moment. And as you say, the renunciation of the unwholesome thought. If it is relinquished wisely once, thanks to panna, it conditions another reliznquishing, perhaps. It is a gradual process. > One more thing, Phil: The thoughts are just thoughts, the emotions are > just emotions. They are not "you", and no self-condemnation is justified. You > should commend yourself for distinguishing good from bad and for wanting to > choose the good. Have metta for yourself first, Phil. Feel kindness and > friendship for yourself, and never the opposite. This will make all the rest easier. Yes, the thoughts are just thoughts, they are not "me." But I think for some reason I began to be concerned for the kammic implications of these unwholesome moments of schadenfreude. This morning I was watching two crops fighting over garbage, while they kept a starving stray cat away from the feast, and I thought that I would not like to be reborn in an animal realm. Of course it will not be *me* who pays for my bad kamma, and I really don't think of this thing very often because we cannot choose patisandhi citta in an intentional way, obviously, but there is a little bit more fear of bad kamma than there used to be. I think this is not a bad thing. Thank you Howard. I appreciate your kind support. Metta, Phil 38751 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Thanks, Nina! :-) In a message dated 11/24/04 12:10:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > I am glad you feel O.K. and best wishes ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38752 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:three characteristics Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/24/04 12:13:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 23-11-2004 16:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >It happens that > >Mahayana emphasizes the anatta doorway and Theravada emphasizes the anicca > >doorway. > N: Oh, I did not know that. Reading the suttas I think all three are > emphasized. > Nina > ======================== It's just my impression, Nina, from a lot of reading, but not officially in any way. I do think my imoression is correct, though. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38753 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (James) Hi James, and all > You and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this issue of Right > Resolve because it appears that you have mentally bought into the K. > Sujin philosophy of "no control". Hmm. K Sujin and Nina are wonderful teachers, but I think it is Abhidhamma that I have "brought into." I remember just after I joined DSG you told me that there are other interpretations of Abdhidhamma that allow for more control. You provided a link to a long academic piece that I wasn't able to get into at the time. If possible, could you provide me with an example of Abhidhamma related material that proposes more control? I would very much like to see it. If possible, a precise passage rather than a link to a long article. (I know you're busy - no hurry) >I was speaking from the Buddha's > teaching that we each can make an effort to control the arising of > unwholesome states of mind. Phil, you write, "The arising of > unskillful/evil thoughts is inevitable" and yet this is not true. > An arahant doesn't have unskillful/evil thoughts, and becoming an > arahant is the goal of Buddhism. So when I wrote that we should > resolve to get to the point where we never have unskillful/evil > thoughts, that is what I meant. > You also wrote, "Resolving to do what is impossible is not a good > suggestion to lay on teens, I posted, and I would still agree with > that." Now, what is impossible about becoming an arahant? It is not > even impossible for a teen to become an arahant, as the Buddha > taught. Hmm. Personally, I think it would have been better to give the kids a more realistic picture of what to expect. As I said before (based on a *SUTTA*) the Buddha taught four right efforts, not three. If he had wanted people to block out all bad thoughts, why did he teach the abandoning of bad thoughts that have arisen? Why did he not aim as high as you are aiming? Because he was the Buddha, and knew the middle way. I praised your series, James. Just that one post was off, in my opinion. But, as you said, we won't see eye to eye on that, and that's fine. >You see, I write things to inspire people to accomplish the > most that they can accomplish; that is why my writing made such a > strong impact on you. Yes, that's true. It is stirring to read something that inspires us to aim higher. I enjoyed your series for that reason, and think you'll write great Dhamma books for kids someday. On the other hand, inspirational writing easily slides into looking like wrong view, such as the time your wrote that you think people should be *magnificent* > I applaud your efforts to rid yourself of the evil thoughts you are > now having in regard to the conflict in Iraq. I'm sure that you > will eventually solve the problem since you have resolved to. Thank you James. I think the resolve has been planted. > However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to > learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a > very good idea. You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > patience. (go to www.accesstoinsight.org for selected suttas if you > don't have the printed copies) Wow! This is very condescending James. I guess you didn't read the whole post because I referred to not one and not two and not three but *nine* suttas. Giving someone a link to access to insight when they have already been making a sincere effort to develop an understanding of suttas through dhamma discussion (I've made many references to AN and SN) is a bit snorky. (I just made that word up.) Also, the point of the post, if you read it, is that I was questioning Jon on the idea of control. I was going against the grain, man! Sheesh! Last time I'll try that! Anyways, thanks for the above "I applaud you efforts" part. That was nice. Phil 38754 From: Hugo Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Venerable Vimalaramsi, Thanks for replying. It is interesting the way I perceive the phrase "only way" after knowing how the word it comes from in Pali is decomposed. I can see how all the different explanations could be applied. > This may help you a little and also in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta > section 19 and 20 of the Digha Nikaya there is a short but detailed > accounting of Dependent origination. Ah!!!!, excellent, thank you very much for the reference!! > If you don't have a copy of the > Digha Nikaya translated by Maurice Walsh let me know and I will write it > out for you. I don't have it, but I wouldn't like to impose this on you, as it seems that it is not a very short discourse. I will try to read it at the monastery next time I go. > I much prefer this translation to the access to insight > translation because the access to insight has the tendency to change some > words that will change the true meaning of what is said. I guess you mean specifically the translation from Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html Do you know and if you do, what is your opinion of the translation of this sutta by U Jotika and U Dhamminda? Available here: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/mahasati.pdf They write: "...this is the one and only way....." Then provide the following explanation: "The one and the only way: ekayano, this means that this is: the only way which surely leads to the benefits listed, there is no other way, and this way leads to nowhere else. This statement does not need to be believed in blindly, but as a meditator practises he can verify it by his own experience". > I sincerely hope that this has been helpful. More than definitely, thanks again. Greetings, -- Hugo 38755 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/24/04 8:30:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hi Howard, and all > > > >>Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse > kusala > >>where there is none > >>is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > >>loving-kindness. It > >>seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. > >========================= > >Howard: I don't think you should be so sure about this. > > Phil: Yes, you're right. And I'm not certain about it, though > I said I was above. > No doubt, though, that for the time being at least it doesn't feel right. > After all, the Brahma-Viharas > are "divine abodes." If we were able to turn them on at will, it would seem > to me that they wouldn't be very refined at all. How do we know when we > are generating metta whether we are not just generating a sense of well > being for > ourselves? I don't think the Buddha wanted to teach coziness and well-being > available > at the drop of a cushion. > But you're right, certainly I am not sure. I'm staying open to all new > understanding. > I may return to metta meditation. For the time being, I am encouraged when > metta > arises unexpectedly. > Today, for example. I was in a coffee shop trying to concentrate on some > difficult > study materials. An elderly man sitting next to me was obviously interested > in me > (as a non-Japanese) and I secretly wished that he would *not* unterrupt me > to chat. > Tried to send out unfriendly vibes. But he did interrupt me. And lo and > behold metta > arose and I had a friendly chat with him when moments earlier I'd been > feeling a bit > hostile towards him. That's the kind of metta I'm interested in these days. > The metta > that arises in a conditioned way, unpredictably. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that lovingkindness can not be forced. It arises or not depending on conditions. For me personally, it happens that metta meditation has never seemed natural or of much use. But that is my own idiosyncracy. It seems that I somehow naturally tend to react with metta and karuna much of the time. It is just my good fortune, or, more precisely I suppose, "happy" accumulations. However, I do believe that, in general, the inclination towards metta and karuna (and upekkha, for that matter) can be cultivated. If someone should determine that s/he is particularly deficient in any of these, it makes sense to take steps to rectify this. --------------------------------------------- > > > >With regard to these thoughts and even desires > >for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you > would > >do well to consider the following: > > 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. > > 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, > >their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. > > Phil: This is very encouraging. Thank you. My past experience with > another > form of unwholesome thought gives me reason to be hopeful. As Rob M says, > > train the puppy, not control it. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. --------------------------------------- > > > 3) Also, by being mindful of thoughts and guarding the mind door, > as > >you (admirably) have been doing, you can avoid concocting further and > >embellishing such thoughts, and, by seeing them clearly and quickly > dropping them as > >one would quickly drop poisonous snakes, you will see them leave as soon > as they > >come. > > Phil: I think this is why I am so interested in yoniso manisakaara (sp?) > these days. When there is > wise attention to attractive objects, greed does not proliferate. When there > is > wise attention to unpleasant objects, aversion does not proliferate. It > seems to me that > wise attention is not as refined or rare as panna. There are countless > moments in each day > when I find myself in a train of thought, and clearly see where it's going, > and have an > opportunity to circumvent it, and sometimes do, and often don't. It is > panna, I guess, > that will more often circumvent the unwholesome train of thought. A bit of > the first > right effort arising here, a bit of the second right effort arising there. > And faith that more and more right effort > will be conditioned thereby. I do feel confident about that, and grateful > to the Budddha. > As Nina writes in ADL, we do not have to be distressed when we become aware > of our > defilements. Instead it can be a cause for gratitude to the Buddha who > teaches the way > to liberation. > > > >And by the process of repeatedly seeing and letting go, the mind will > >become habituated to such relinquishment, and soon these thoughts, as if > they > >were sentient entities, will "realize" that they are unwanted guests, and > they > >will show up less and less often at your mental doorstep. > > Phil: Yes, you're right. This does happen. Also the kusala cetasikas hiri > and > ottappa arise in a more realizable way, perhaps? There is a moment > of hesitation, of shame, of fear of the kammic implications. Just a moment. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Guarding the senses works. ------------------------------------ > And as you say, the renunciation of the unwholesome thought. If it is > relinquished wisely once, thanks to panna, it conditions another > reliznquishing, > perhaps. It is a gradual process. > > > One more thing, Phil: The thoughts are just thoughts, the emotions > are > >just emotions. They are not "you", and no self-condemnation is justified. > You > >should commend yourself for distinguishing good from bad and for wanting > to > >choose the good. Have metta for yourself first, Phil. Feel kindness and > >friendship for yourself, and never the opposite. This will make all the > rest easier. > > Yes, the thoughts are just thoughts, they are not "me." But I think for some > reason > I began to be concerned for the kammic implications of these unwholesome > moments of schadenfreude. This morning I was watching two crops fighting > over > garbage, while they kept a starving stray cat away from the feast, and I > thought that I would not like to be reborn in an animal realm. > Of course it will not be *me* who pays for my bad kamma, and I really don't > think of this thing > very often because we cannot choose patisandhi citta in an intentional way, > obviously, > but there is a little bit more fear of bad kamma than there used to be. I > think this is > not a bad thing. > > Thank you Howard. I appreciate your kind support. > > Metta, > Phil > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38756 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hi Nina Thanks for the feedback. I reread the chapter today. You know, I got so caught up in "Conditions" that I neglected "Cetasikas" and now have to re-start from scratch! That's ok. Patience. > >> i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > >> experience an object? > > > > I guess only one. The mind door. I have a feeling that's not the right > > answer. > N: No. Lobha-muulacitta with pleasant feeling can arise also in the > sense-doors, even when citta does not know much about the object. It is by > accumulations, anatta. Thus, six doors. Ph: Yes, it's difficult for me at this point to understand that there is feeling related to an object even before mind door processes have put things together. > Ph: ii There is a great variety of feelings, but all feelings have > >> something in common. What is the characteristic they have > >> in common? > > > > They are nama? They are not rupa? > :N: they experience the flavour of the object. > (snipped) Ph:. Here is a relevant bit related to this - "Dosa and domanassa always arise together. It is difficult to distinguish between these two realities, but they are different cetasikas. Domanassa is feeling, it experiences the taste of the undesirable object. Dosa is not feeling, it has a different characteristic. Dosa does not like the object which is experienced." I see. A reminder here that the cetasika feeling is not what we conventionally think of as feeling. What we conventionally think of as feeling is more like dosa, I guess. Thanks for the other explanations. Very clear, as always, when I read your explanation - and then I forget again. But my failing the self-test in public turned out to be a good idea, as I thought it might. It spurred me to reconnect to "Cetasikas." Metta, Phil 38757 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Hugo, Actually the section that I was talking about in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta is relatively short and I don't mind copying it for you. I like to do this sort of thing because I always benefit from doing it. I am continually seeing things in a deeper way when I write out a sutta. So here it goes: 19] 'And what, is the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering? It is craving which gives rise to rebirth, bound up with pleasure now here, now there: that is to say sensual craving, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. 'And where does this craving arise and establish itself? Wherever in the world there is anything agreeable and pleasurable, there this craving arises and establishes itself.'' 'And what is there in the world that is agreeable and pleasurable? The eye in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the ear in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the nose in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the tongue in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the body in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the mind in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact. feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of mind-contact, in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'The perception of sights, or sounds, of smells, of tastes, of tangibles, of mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Volition in regard to sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'The craving for sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Thinking of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Pondering on sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. And that monks, is called the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering. 20] 'And what, monks, is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering? It is the complete fading away and extinction of this craving, its forsaking and abandonment, liberation from it, detachment from it. And how does this craving come to be abandoned; how does its cessation come about? 'Wherever in the world there is anything agreeable and pleasurable, there its cessation comes about. And what is there in the world that is agreeable and pleasurable? 'The eye in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the ear in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the nose in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the tongue in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the body in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the mind in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'The perception of sights, or sounds, of smells, of tastes, of tangibles, of mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Volition in regard to sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Thinking of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Pondering on sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. And that monks, is called the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering. So there now you have it. Hope this is useful to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38758 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Hugo, I forgot to tell you that Venerables Jotika and Dhamminda are friends of mine and they asked me to edit some of this. At the time I was practicing the Mahasi method of meditation and thought that it was pretty good. But now I think it is a little limited in this approach. It could have been expanded a bit more like Sayadaw U Silananda did and it would have been better. And, and this is a big addition I completely agree with the idea that it takes the direct experience of meditation to truly see this. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38759 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:58am Subject: Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Friend Phil, If I reply to any of this post I'm afraid you will become absolutely unglued, go ballistic, and we will have a repeat of the type of posts we exchanged when you first joined DSG. It seems to me as if you easily take offense to very neutral things I write. So we'll just leave it at that. Metta, `Snorky' James ;-)) 38760 From: Hugo Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Ven. Vimalaramsi, On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:59:57 -0500, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > I forgot to tell you that Venerables Jotika and Dhamminda are friends of > mine and they asked me to edit some of this. So, in the absence of Maurice Walsh's translation do you think that I will be fine reading: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/mahasati.pdf the translation of the sutta by U Jotika and U Dhamminda? -- Hugo 38761 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Howard There is no doubt there are three way of liberation. But is there a difference in the three way of liberations, please read below. Non Buddhist even though can have knowledge of anicca and dukkha as they are visible but they cannot lead to cessation of rebirth as the attainment of the cessation of birth (in the Thervada) depends on the three characteristics (must have anatta). My opinion is that selfless acts by non-buddhist will not lead to liberation as they do not understand anatta. Visud para 73 <> Expositor pg 303 <> Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary (54) Once he is in this way free of the obstacles, he considers the three marks by means of succession of insights beginning with the knowledge of rise and fall and culminating in the knowledge of conformity; these nine insight knowledge are called 'purification of knowing and seeing the way.' (my note - see Visud chapter XXI for the detail explanation of the nine insight knowledge) (55) As he is so engaged, owing to the maturity of insight and signifying that absorption will now arise, mind-door adverting interrupts the existence-continuum, and is followed immediately by two or three characteristics beginning with impermanence, and called 'preparatory', 'access' and 'conformity'. (56) And when this has reach its peak, that same equanimity regarding formations along the conformity is called 'insight leading to emergence' {57) After that, with Nibbana as its object, the change of lineage consciousness occurs, overcoming the lineage of the ordinary person and arriving at the lineage of the noble ones. . . . (64) Therefore if the insight leading to the emergence gains insight into [formations] as not self, the path to liberation is called 'emptiness' (65) If it gains into [formations] as impermanent, it is liberation called 'signless'; (66) and if it gains insight into [formations] as suffering, it is liberation called 'wishless'. So the path acquires three names by way of the arrival of insight and likewise the fruit [occurring] in the consciousness process of the path, by way of the arrival of the path. (67) However, in the case of those practicing insight in the manner stated in the [consciousness] process leading to the attainment of the fruit, although the respective fruit arise, it is termed 'the liberation of emptiness' and so on only by virtue of the arrival of insight [at that point]. But the three names apply equally to all [the path and fruits] in all circumstances by virtue of their object and their own properties. *[comy - object is Nibbana] *actually the above notes can also be seen in CMA In the sutta MN 43, Mahavedalla Sutta, under footnote 457, <> Ken O 38762 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Larry, op 24-11-2004 05:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Ken O: "Concepts do condition dukkha but they dont experience dukkha. " > > Hi Ken, > > Is rupa dukkha? N: Yes, because it arises and falls away, it is impermanent and thus no refuge. See the suttas! Kindred S. IV, sutta 1: The same about the other sense organs, and the sense objects. Nina. 38763 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran Dear Andrew, op 24-11-2004 05:22 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > What an excellent suggestion. I will be sure to bring it to Ken H's > attention. He has gone to the city to visit his ill father for a few > days. N: I am sorry to hear this and hope his father is feeling better. A: Alas, I fear Ken H will arrive at Cooran with his usual page of notes > written in very faint pencil. N: For sure the seawater. I hope you can record the meeting. A:(-: But the quality of his questions is > always very high and that's the important part! > We are also looking forward to Christine telling us more of your > discussions in India. N: I am writing about them, but slowly. Nina. 38764 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Howard: "My guessing went along the lines you gave, but, of course, without the fine detail. I guess I was confused by Larry's statement "The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas." Larry, did you mean something that remains unanswered by Nina's reply?" Hi Howard and Nina, What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika (desire and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without its cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. Sense door consciousnesses such as eye-consciousness are a little different, of course. This is in support of my contention that tadarammana and votthapana/manodvaraavajjana (registration and determining/mind-door adverting) function primarily by means of sanna cetasika (perception). Votthapana operates in a sense-door process but that doesn't affect my argument. Determining and mind-door adverting are the same consciousness but arise in sense-door and mind-door processes, respectively. Larry 38765 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 133 ) Dear Sarah, Very valuable comments. I accept all with happiness. I read your linked message or Bhikkhu Bohi& you exchange, Nina's rupa post. Both are clear. Below, you can see my replies. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Dear Htoo, You continue to write excellent posts in the Dhamma Thread series. Like Mike, I thought the ones on pannatti were very good and all the cetasikas as I mentioned before. Also on rupas too. Please continue the series on and on! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am going with two tracks. One track is delivering mode. Another track is responding mode. I say 'track' because all are here on the DSG list and we can trace at any time. As once you corrected me, I do hope you will continue to do so. You may remember my short messages of some summaries of dhamma. I put dhammarammana and dhammayatana together. Like this again, my reply to Larry ( I think ) wrongly mentioned pannatta as arammanadhipati paccaya. No. It is not. As long as time and condition favour me, I will be writing Dhamma Thread more than 1000. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Any comments here are mere nit-picking and not meant to detract from the quality of the thread. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I will respond. This will not hinder the flow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [Htoo's old post] > Dhamma are > 1. 1 citta > 2. 52 cetasikas > 3. 18 nipphanna rupas > 4. 1 nibbana > --------------- > 72 dhammas > These are real dhammas. These do exist and they can be tested and > they can be seen under the microscope of panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: There seems to be a suggestion here and in an earlier post that anipphanna rupas are not `real' dhammas or paramattha dhammas. Even though they are not `salakkhana' does not mean they are not `real'. I discussed this same point in detail with B.Bodhi and we both agreed in the end. He even mentioned there'd be a change in the next edition of CMA in this regard. All 28 rupas are paramattha dhammas as I understand, even though the 4 lakkhana rupas are characteristics of other rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are right. I have read the link you made. Yes all 28 rupas are realities. They are ultimate realities. But 18 salakkhana rupas can be seen under the microscope of nana. They can work as objects for arising of higher nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You also mentioned in #38131, that these 10 rupas `are not conditioned.' Here you said they are paramattha and `do have their own characteristics.They are 1 pariccheda rupa, 2 vinatti rupas, 3 lahutadi rupas, and 4lakkhana rupas.' You may wish to clarify. It's a difficult area. You mentioned the 4 lakkhana rupas are not influenced by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara as their causes, but as characteristics of other rupas which are conditioned by these causes, I believe they are said to be conditioned dhammas and (indirectly) conditioned by the same causes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree this is a hard area to touch. Akasa. Kamma, citta, utu, ahara. Hmmm. Yes, indirectly they may be. 2 vinattis. Kamma, citta, utu, ahara. Cittas cause them. Kamma and vinatti, utu and vinatti, ahara and vinatti. I do not think so. Citta, yes. 3 lahutadis. Citta, ahara, kamma. Hmmm. Yes, may well be. But kamma and lahutadis. No. Not that. 4 lakkhanas. Kamma, citta, utu, ahara. Hmmm. Hard. I do not believe so. They are ultimate realities. But kamma does not dictate to arise these, pass away these. Citta does not dictate, utu does not dictate, ahara does not dictate. Actually they do not arise and do not pass away. What arise and pass away are these 4 rupa's host. That is 18 salakkhana rupas. Vinattis again. Does it arise and pass away? Need to check. I do not think vinatti arise and pass away. But vinatti do exist. What arise and pass away are these 2 vinatti's host that is 18 salakkhana rupas. Akasa. Does it arise? Does it pass away? Need to check. I do not think akasa arises and passes away. What arise and pass away are akasa's host. Let us think imaginably. There is the space that astronauts float around. There are two masses. One is the earth and another is Mar. The earth did arise. The earth will soon pass away. It is soon. It will pass away soon. Mar did arise. Mar will one day pass away and disappear. But the space between the earth and Mar never arise, never pass away. You might think that that space is real. Actually it is not. Space does not arise and does not pass away. What arise and pass away are akasa's host. But akasa does exist and it is a reality. Again 3 lahutadis. They do not arise and pass away. Only their host arise and pass away. But all 3 lahutadi rupas are realities. My idea seems saying 10 rupa do not exist. No. They are realities and they do exist. But they do not arise and do not pass away. The problem is the word 'exist'. Someone may point out what I meant by 'exist'. When the appropriate can be discovered, I might change to that word. 18 salakkhana rupas , 18 nipphanna rupas arise and fall away. They have 17 times the life of a citta. 10 rupas exist. But they do not arise and do not fall away. How do you think? Any previous discussion on these? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: The same with akasa rupa – it's conditioned as a result of delimiting the rupas which are conditioned by these causes. We can check the texts if we're not clear or Nina will help us. I'm a bit rushed now to look up anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand your position. More than 100 emails and Sarah! I hope Nina would re-touch these again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Upekkha (yr post #38655)– there have been discussions on the various meanings. See `Upekkha' in U.P. Also, Nina's chapter in `Cetasikas' under`Equanimity- tatramajjhattataa' is very helpful. Equanimity as a brahma vihara is an aspect of this cetasika with other beings as objects and should not be confused with upekkha as neutral feeling. Lots of confusion as you say in this regard. I understand that karuna and mudita can arise with either pleasant feeling or neutral feeling just as you say Under conditions (yr post #38570 to Larry), you mentioned pannatti under both arammana paccaya and arammanadhipati paccaya. I don't believe the latter can include pannatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I admitted above. Pannatti does not serve as arammanadhipati paccaya. I put wrongly in the reply to Larry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Finally, I think it's only a matter of language use, but a couple of times, such as in #38159, you've referred to `nibbana is only present in arahats or anagams while they are in nirodha samapatti'.. Do you mean that nibbana is only *experienced* by the arahats and anagamis……? In which case, I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Experienced. I think I might have been wrong. I will check that message again. Actually I typed in a rush at geocities' 'Patthana Dhamma' and I copied it and pasted it in Dhamma Thread. You know the site. Nibbana is written in page 29. So type the adress and end with 'patthana29.html' will lead you to that page. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Also in the same post, you refer to anupadisesa nibbana as being a `state'. I'm not sure we can refer to it as a state, rather a final cessation of all conditioned dhammas. A little later you again refer to it as `the state all Buddhists are trying to attain……'. Not sure I'd put it like this, but I understand your point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for pointing out this fact. What about if I said it is non- state? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Another finally;-) – in the same post and earlier in one as well, you refer to `sankhata dhatu are those whose arising and existence are influenced by four causes namely kamma, citta, utu, and ahara'. You then rightly explain why nibbana is the asankhata dhatu. Surely we can only refer to all rupa dhatus as as being conditioned by one of these four factors? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I think it is better to tell on rupa. In Myanmar language it is said that 'Rupa is called rupa because it is changing and conditioned by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Again, Htoo, I greatly appreciate and benefit from this long thread and all the detail and research you include. I also understood the points you were making in another thread on the ti-lakkhana and nibbana. Metta and sadhu to you too! Sarah p.s when we finally upload the India recordings, I think you'd find them very interesting to listen to. ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But it brought controversial discussion. Whether arahat-to-be just saw anicca or dukkha or anatta becomes another issue. Actually all these are seen and realised. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38766 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Yahoo Group DSG's description Howard wrote: Hi, Htoo - =================== I wonder why you raise this matter. Were some folks questioning this? Or did some want to censor aspects of it? It does seem that the list members as a whole do exercise all aspects of the description, and very little that falls outside it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo replied: Dear Howard, :-) to cover little that falls outside it. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38767 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 11/23/04 3:26:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > Do you know 8 vimokkhas as described in 'Mahanidana Sutta DN 15' ? > > > > With respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > ==================== Yes, I've seen that. I don't understand the 1st three. Why, BTW, do you ask? >With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, The last is much more difficult and the following scripts much much more difficult. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38768 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo In a message dated 11/24/2004 4:49:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I think that in actuality, there are just the mental images and other thoughts. With metta, Howard Exactly! Mental Object. Looking for concepts as existing (or not existing) in some way outside of mental object, is a flight in fantasy: and unnecessarily complicates something that doesn't need to be complicated. (Maybe that's why its a non-issue in the Suttas.) Mental Objects are states that arise and cease...'coincidentally' just like concepts. The dictionary defines "concept" excellently -- "an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct." (Random House College Dict.) Sounds pretty Dependent Originated to me! “Whatever is felt is included within suffering. That has been stated by me with reference to the impermanence of formations.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourse of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 569 – 570) TG 38769 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Ken O Hi Ken, This is how I see it today. First, I think you are mistranslating dukkha. It is better to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory rather than suffering. From one point of view everything is unsatisfactory but the only thing that is suffering is suffering itself. As a GENERAL characteristic dukkha is a concept, like impermanence and anatta. Our convention is that these concepts, in the ultimate sense, only apply to ultimate realities. It makes perfect sense to say government is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self, and in middle-way philosophy this is considered ultimate truth, but in Theravada conventions "unsatisfactory" depends on impermanence (and no control)and only certain "realities" are ultimately impermanent. So concept is not dukkha. However, as one of the Four Noble Truths, dukkha is an ultimate reality, not a concept. As an ultimate reality it has a PARTICULAR characteristic (sabhava). Imo, that characteristic can only be dosa (aversion) consciousness. So, whatever is the object of dosa is unsatisfactory. Concept is one of the dhammas that can be an object of dosa. Concept is dukkha in satipatthana. The unsatisfactoriness of concept is due to the fact that concept is purported to point to reality but it doesn't "really" do that. See Howard and TG's notes for further elaboration on this theme. Concept is error itself and, as such, is the root of all unsatisfactoriness. Larry 38770 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] yoniso manasikara. Hello Phil, op 24-11-2004 12:53 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: >> 1) The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 3-5) explains the difference between saññå, >> citta and paññå by way of a simile. Saññå is like the mere perception of a >> coin by a child who does not know its value. Citta is like the villager >> who knows its value. Paññå is like the money-changer who penetrates its >> true characteristics. N: Here follows the Tiika: The phrase ³Perception, etc.² this refers to the composing of a simile. Perception is said to be like a child who sees the coin, because it does not make a distinction and it apprehends the object as a mass. Therefore it is said of perception ³its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared². Consciousness is said to be like the villager who sees the coin, because of its skill of apprehending some distinguishing marks with regard to the object. Understanding should be seen as said to be like the moneychanger who sees the coin, because it understands completely the distinguishing marks with regard to the object. The phrase, ³by knowing in diverse ways², he explains that by this he knows with regard to the dhamma that is to be understood each single one, and as to the phrase, ³in diverse ways², it means, true knowledge of them, namely, ³understanding². Therefore it is said, ³ All dhammas appear to the sphere of knowledge of the Buddha, the Exalted One.² ***** > This is a bit off topic, but.... > I wonder how we could introduce yoniso-manisakara (sp?) into this simile? N: When the determining consciousness in the sense-door process and the mind-door adverting consciousness in a mind-door process are followed by javana cittas which are kusala, accompanied by pañña or not, there is proper attention to the object which is experienced. Thus, yoniso-manisakara refers here to the whole series of javana cittas. Manasikara has different meanings depending on the context. Manasikara denotes two cittas: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness, and it is called controller of the sense-door process. And also the mind-door adverting-consciousness, which is called controller of the javanas. Then there is manasikara cetasika, attention, which arises with each citta. Remark : interesting, you were just writing about control in other posts. Now you see: there is control, but not you who controls. There have to be right conditions and the foremost one is right understanding of your cittas, of what your life is: nama and rupa. Listening, studying, considering Dhamma. Remembering that the Abhidhamma gives the taste of anatta, as Rob K said to you. Nina. 38771 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Dear Naresh, op 24-11-2004 04:56 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y...: > > Where do i read suttas from ?? Nina: You probably have no books over there in Curacao. Suttas are on line and kind people here can give you links. Also on this forum quotes of suttas are given, like Bhante Vimalaramsi today. Sutta reading is not easy, many questions will come up, but that is good. Naresh: I understand the transformation is a gradual process, > but this process it self is painful as we are used to > see, smell, listen , touch & think the different way > from our birth. Nina: thanks to the Buddha we learn more now how much we cling to all objects, and we did not know this before. That is a gain. See the sutta about craving, Bhante quoted. You live a lot in the past, worrying. Here is another sutta, from Kindred Sayings 1: ahead pls guide me in this manner.: Nina: Right understanding comes first, but it is accompanied by right concentration, right mindfulness, and other factors. If we sit down and just concentrate without any understanding, would it be fruitful? You can try for yourself whhether this helps you or not. See this sutta, Kindred Sayings: > 2 15(5) Devaputtasamyutta - Candana Standing to one side, the young deva Candana addressed the Blessed One in verse: "Who here crosses over the flood, Unwearying by day and night? Who does not sink in the deep, Without support, without a hold?" ]n.164] "One always perfect in virtue, Endowed with wisdom, well concentrated, One energetic and resolute Crosses the flood so hard to cross. "One who desists from sensual perception, Who has overcome the fetter of form, Who has destroyed delight in existence - He does not sink in the deep." [n.165]> Remark: we read:< "One always perfect in virtue, Endowed with wisdom, well concentrated, One energetic and resolute Crosses the flood so hard to cross.> It is not just concentration as you see. > Naresh: You had aksed me before what i think about death ? > > Death is definite which we cannot change but never > really thought about it more deeply. Nina: The first moment of life did not come out of nothing, it was preceded by the last moment of your previous life. The last moment of this life falls away and will be succeeded by the first moment of your next life. In this life there was happiness and pain, we did good and bad deeds, and we shall receive the results of our deeds, in this lfe and lives to come. So it will go on, until by wisdom fully developed we are freed from the cycle. What happens at the end of life is not different from this moment now: seeing arises and falls away, sadness arises and falls away. Everything that arises goes completely away. At each moment there is birth and death. Another sutta, about death, from Kindred Sayings: Nina. P.S. I hope others will give suttas to Naresh, we can all profit. 38772 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread, rupa as characteristic, space. Dear Sarah and Htoo, op 24-11-2004 11:54 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > You may wish to clarify. It’s a difficult area. You mentioned the 4 > lakkhana rupas are not influenced by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara as their > causes, but as characteristics of other rupas which are conditioned by > these causes, I believe they are said to be conditioned dhammas and > (indirectly) conditioned by the same causes. The same with akasa rupa – > it’s conditioned as a result of delimiting the rupas which are conditioned > by these causes. We can check the texts if we’re not clear or Nina will > help us. N: Some texts: Vis.80 80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'. Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. Though in the passage, 'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the favour base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667) and so on, a state of birth [that is, growth] being born from somewhere can be understood as allowable since the point of view here is the moment when the conditions that are giving birth to the kinds of materiality are exercising their function. N: As we have seen there are four rupas as characteristics: origination, continuity, decay and impermanence. These are inherent in all groups of rupa. Since they are characteristics, they are not originated by any of the four causes that originate rupas. Strictly speaking, there is no arising of arising, however, from another viewpoint it can be said (it is allowable as the Vis text states) that when kamma and the other three causes originate rupas, they also cause the arising (or birth) of the characteristics of origination and continuity which are bound up with the other rupas in a group. The Vis. enumerates the rupas that are originated by citta or as appropriate by the other causes, and includes here the two rupas of growth of matter, continuity of matter. These two are actually the origin or birth of rupa as we have seen. Continuity or development follows immediately upon growth, which is the first moment of a group of rupas. When we consider the moment that a cause such as citta begins to originate a group of rupas, it is allowable to see also the characteristics of origination and continuity inherent in a group of rupas as being caused by citta. Thus in that sense there is arising of arising. This cannot be said of decay and impermanence, since these manifest themselves after the moments of growth and development. In olden times this was an issue and we read about debates about this subject in the Expositor (II, p. 442, and also in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, p. 243). We read in the Expositor: ²But in the ultimnate sense birth does not come into being. To one who is being born, the mere [fact of] rebirth comes into being. ... Maturity and breaking up do not get that common usage. And why? From their absence at the moment when the productive cause is powerful. for there is power to productive causes only at the moment of the production of a state to be produced; none subsequent to that...² Space: Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up with concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups originated by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned as originated by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It is also called an element, dhatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425). And the Co to the Abh. Sangaha states:, meaning, it is not a living being. The Vis. gives the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in the case of all 28 rupas. It is rupa, thus, it has the three characteristics. Nina. 38773 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hello Phil, op 24-11-2004 15:40 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > But my failing the self-test in public turned out to be a good idea, as I > thought it might. > It spurred me to reconnect to "Cetasikas." N: No, not failing. It is also a test for me. To think matters over more. Did I understand everything myself? Not yet quite! Nina. 38774 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)metta Hi Howard, op 24-11-2004 15:28 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > However, I do believe that, in general, the inclination towards metta and > karuna (and upekkha, for that matter) can be cultivated. If someone should > determine that s/he is particularly deficient in any of these, it makes sense > to > take steps to rectify this. N: I like this. A. Sujin said this of the perfections. I suppose, some work to do, I am deficient in all!! But pañña is the leader of them all. Nina. 38775 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Hugo, Yes, it is a pretty good translation but compare it with Maurice Walsh's translations for good measure. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38776 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (James) Hello Phil, and James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi James, and all > > > You and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this issue of Right > > Resolve because it appears that you have mentally bought into the K. > > Sujin philosophy of "no control". > .....snip... Giving someone a link to access to insight when they have already > been > making a sincere effort to develop an understanding of suttas through > dhamma discussion (I've made many references to AN and SN) is a bit > snorky. (I just made that word up.) ....Phil Azita: have just returned home from nite shift, thought I'd have a quick read of any inspiring posts on dsg, and read this one which made me laugh and laugh! I love the word 'snorky' and I see James has signed himself off 'Snorky James'. Maybe not so inspiring Dhamma-wise but just perfect for a snorky zombie after nite beat - thanks guys!! Patience, courage and good cheer, and I feel really cheerful right now, Azita. 38777 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Vism.XIV,116 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 116. When an object of any one of the six kinds has come into focus in the mind door, then next to the disturbance of the life-continuum the functional mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (71) arises accompanied by equanimity, as it were, cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. This is how the occurrence of two kinds of functional consciousness should be understood as adverting. 38778 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/24/04 1:32:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > There is no doubt there are three way of liberation. But is there a > difference in the three way of liberations, please read below. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I would sooner speak of three *doors* to liberation. And I do think these doors are different, but the moment one is opened, so are the others. -------------------------------------- Non> > Buddhist even though can have knowledge of anicca and dukkha as they > are visible but they cannot lead to cessation of rebirth as the > attainment of the cessation of birth (in the Thervada) depends on the > three characteristics (must have anatta). ----------------------------------- Howard: Non-Buddhists, provided that they never engaged in Dhamma practice in any lifetime, will have only conventional knowledge of anicca and dukkha. Incidently, others beside Buddhas and Buddhists had the *notion* of anatta, though apparently not in India circa 500 BCE. But the mere conventional knowledge of any of these, including anatta, is insufficient for liberation. Penetration of one of these, fully, by a perfected wisdom which sees exactly how dhammas arise and cease dependently and how suffering arises from grasping, is required. The Buddha, of course, being a Buddha, had the quintessence of realization and had mastered all the perfections, and thus was a perfect teacher of Dhamma, including anatta. But even his teaching of Dhamma, including anatta, was insufficient, on its own, to lead others to liberation. Their minds had to be fertile fields for that teaching, cultivated by much practice, either in that lifetime or prior ones. What is most important in the Buddhadhamma, in my opinion, is not so much his reporting of the insights into reality he obtained, but his methods of training that lead to them, and to the realization of nibbana. ----------------------------------------------- My opinion is that selfless> > acts by non-buddhist will not lead to liberation as they do not > understand anatta. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Some may understand it, but only at the conventional level. That is equally so for Buddhists. What constitutes being a Buddhist? Taking refuge? That won't necessarily do anything. Taking the precepts? All religions observe the Buddhist precepts. ---------------------------------------- > > > Visud para 73 > < follows: (i) It is expressed firstly as the void liberation by its > liberating from misinterpreting [formations]: Knowledge of > contemplation of impermanence is the void liberation since it > liberates from interpreting [them] as permanent; knowledge of > contemplation of pain is the void liberation since it liberates from > interpreting [them] as pleasant; knowledge of contemplation of > not-self is the void liberation since it liberates from interpreting > [them] as self (Ps.ii.67] > > (ii) Then it is expressed the signless liberation by liberating from > signs: "Knowledge of contemplation of impermanence is the signless > liberation since it liberates from the sign [of formations] as > permanent; knowledge of contemplation of pain is > the signless liberation since it liberates from the sign [of > formations] as pleasant; knowledge of contemplation of not-self is > the signless liberation since it liberates from the sign [of > formations] as self. > > (iii) Lastly it is expressed as the desireless liberation by its > liberation from desire: "Knowledge of contemplation of impermanence > is the desireless liberation since it liberates from desire [for > formations] as permanent; knowledge of contemplation of of pain is > the desireless liberation since it liberates from the desire [for > them] as pleasant; knowledge of contemplation of not-self is > desireless liberation since it liberates from the desire [for them] > as self (Ps.ii.68)>> > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I see the foregoing as Item (i) says that insight knowledge is a "void liberation" in three differing ways: seeing formations as empty of permanence, empty of pleasantness, and empty of self. Item (ii) says that insight knowledge is a "signless liberation" in three differing ways: seeing in formations no sign of permanence, no sign of pleasantness, and no sign of self. Item (iii) says that insight knowledge is a "desireless liberation" in that it liberates one from the desire for each of three different things: permanence of formations, pleasantness of formations, and selfhood of formations. Now, this is not at all the usual way of describing the three doors to liberation. Usually voidness liberation is associated with not-self, signless liberation with impermanence, and wishless liberation with dukkha. I don't put much stock in the foregoing. The Ps is a rather late addition to the Sutta Pitaka, is radically different from earlier suttas, and is clearly a cut-and-paste document that is commentaral in sense and style. -------------------------------------------------- > > Expositor pg 303 > < on any given occasion there is the emergence of the Path, the three > characteristic signs present themselves as if by a single act of > 'adverting'. There is no simultaneous presentation of the three, yet > it is said so, to show when the station of religious exercise is > manifested. Indeed from the outset, let there be anywhere a > conviction [of the mind], then insight making for emergence, as it > emerges gives the name of the path to whatever sign it has grasped, > placing it at the point of arrival by just that sign. How? Because > of the disposition here or there respecting any one of the three > Signs, the rule is that the other two Signs are seen also, for when > one Sign alone is seen, there is no emergence of the path. Hence the > bhikkhu [225] who is convinced to impermanence, emerges not solely as > to that, but also as to the other two; similarly if he start with > either of these two.>> ------------------------------------------ Howard: THIS selection, however, seems to very much make my case that there are three distinct doors, and the opening of any one immediately opens the others as well. Moreover, this selection has an admirable clarity to it! Perhaps I should get hold of a copy of the Expositor! I think there is much that I could learn from it. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38779 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/24/04 1:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > >Is rupa dukkha? > N: Yes, because it arises and falls away, it is impermanent and thus no > refuge. See the suttas! > ===================== I like the part "and thus no refuge"! I think this is a wonderful way of expressing what it means for conditioned dhammas to be dukkha. I've often thought that the dukkha of conditioned dhammas is their unworthiness of being grasped at, and there being no lasting satisfaction to be found in them. Describing them as being "no refuge" seems to sum all that up and much more. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38780 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Hi James > If I reply to any of this post I'm afraid you will become absolutely > unglued, go ballistic, and we will have a repeat of the type of > posts we exchanged when you first joined DSG. When I read this, I threw my coffee mug against the wall. You see, there is no way to try to predict or control the cittas of others. haha. Sensible decision, James. I have a tendency to get irritated by a great many things, so please don't take it personally. I'm sure you didn't. BTW, not to beat a dead cat, but I happened across another sutta this morning that really drives home the point I was making about the unskillfulness of trying to block out all bad thoughts. It was the one (in MN I think, the reference didn't print out) in which Uggahamana said that the skillful person is one who does no evil action with his body, speaks no evil speech, resolves no evil resolve, and maintains himself with no evil means of livelihood. The Buddha told him that this could apply to a stupid baby boy, and then went on to say that it is by knowing from experience that there are unskillful habits, unskillful resolves etc that one makes progress towards the cessation of same. The "stupid baby boy" bit would go over well with teens, I think, so it *might* be something to consider in the future. Also, when I asked for Abhidhamma related material that point at control, I wasn't doing it in a he-will-not-be-able-to-answer-and-I-will-be-proven-right way. I am sincerely interested, so if you know of any please do pass them along. Thanks and metta Snorky Phil. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "buddhatrue" To: Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 1:58 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) > > > Friend Phil, > > If I reply to any of this post I'm afraid you will become absolutely > unglued, go ballistic, and we will have a repeat of the type of > posts we exchanged when you first joined DSG. It seems to me as if > you easily take offense to very neutral things I write. So we'll > just leave it at that. > > Metta, > `Snorky' James ;-)) > 38781 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/24/04 2:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and Nina, > > What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door > consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the > functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for > example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika (desire > and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without its > cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. Sense door > consciousnesses such as eye-consciousness are a little different, of > course. This is in support of my contention that tadarammana and > votthapana/manodvaraavajjana (registration and determining/mind-door > adverting) function primarily by means of sanna cetasika > (perception). Votthapana operates in a sense-door process but that > doesn't affect my argument. Determining and mind-door adverting are > the same consciousness but arise in sense-door and mind-door > processes, respectively. > > Larry > > ======================== Thanks for the clarification. I am particularly interested in your paragraph that says the following: ___________ What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika (desire and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without its cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. ----------------- Actually, it seems to me that taking, for the moment, the meaning of 'citta' to be "mindstate" rather than "act of consciousness", the "static nature" of a citta, as opposed to its "arising-nature", is completely determined by the object of the mindstate and its cetasikas. [The consciousness involved, whether that is the mere experiential presence of the object (as I believe) or an operation of knowing, doesn't distinguish one citta from another.] ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38782 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/24/04 2:42:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > The dictionary defines "concept" excellently -- "an idea of something > formed > by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct." > (Random House College Dict.) > ===================== Hmm, yes, but what I think is going on is that there is a flow of mental objects, including short-term memories and thoughts of "unity" that seem to project some sort of shadow-reality that is actually non-existent. That non-existent but imagined projection is what is typically taken to be a "concept", and that, in fact, is actually nothing. All there is is the mental processing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38783 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Ken O Hi, Larry (and Ken) - In a message dated 11/24/04 3:08:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > This is how I see it today. First, I think you are mistranslating > dukkha. It is better to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory rather > than suffering. From one point of view everything is unsatisfactory > but the only thing that is suffering is suffering itself. > ======================= Exactly! That is what I meant when in the past I wrote that there are (at least) two senses for 'dukkha', one a characteristic of (conditioned) dhammas, and the other a mental state. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38784 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:51pm Subject: Pali request Hello all Could someone kindly provide me with the Pali for the "this is not mine, this is not my self, this is not what I am" that appears in the anatta sutta? I would like to have it tatooed on my forehead, backwards, so I can see it every time I brush my teeth. Seriously, it is a very rich phrase. Also, the Pali for "Is form constant or inconstant" as well as for the other four aggregates? Thanks in advance. Metta Phil 38785 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry (and Howard / Nina), I would like to butt in here... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/24/04 2:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > Hi Howard and Nina, > > > > What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door > > consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the > > functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for > > example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika (desire > > and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without its > > cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. ===== We might be mixing up terms here. Can I suggest that we agree on: - Citta (with a "C"): is the paramattha dhamma aka vinnana - citta (with a "c")" is a mental state, a collection of Citta + cetasikas The function of Citta is always the same (in all cittas). The function of Citta is always to be the forerunner of cetasikas; to preside over and be accompanied by the cetasikas (see CMA p29). Not only does Citta always have the same function, each of the cetasiksas within the citta always has the same function. For example, the cetasika lobha always has the function of "sticking". If within a citta, the Citta and all the cetasikas have fixed functions, how could there be any variation? Eye-consciousness citta and ear-consciousness citta both have Citta and the exact same set of cetasikas. They are different because they have a different object and a different base. In other words, object and base play a role in making one citta different from another. Accumulations play an extremely important role in making one citta different from another. The greed-rooted javana citta has a set of cetasikas each with their own function. The relative STRENGTH of the various cetasikas will be determined by accumulations. This is why we can have degrees of attachment and degrees of kamma. You are correct to say that the function of javana cittas will always be the same (generate kamma for non-Arahants). However, the type of kamma and the strength of kamma generated will vary all over the map based on accumulations and the object involved. Trying to define the function of the citta in the citta process solely by considering the function of the Citta and cetasikas is too limiting. For example, the Five-Sense-Door Adverting Consciousness, the Receiving Consciousness and the Investigating Consciousness with Indifferent Feeling all have exactly the same set of cetasikas, yet they each perform different functions in the citta process. The function of a citta in the citta process is dictated by citta- niyama (law of citta; a commentarial term not described in any detail in the commentaries). The Citta and cetasikas involved in the citta support the citta in the performing of this function by each performing their own specific function. ===== > > Sense door > > consciousnesses such as eye-consciousness are a little different, of > > course. This is in support of my contention that tadarammana and > > votthapana/manodvaraavajjana (registration and determining/mind- door > > adverting) function primarily by means of sanna cetasika > > (perception). Votthapana operates in a sense-door process but that > > doesn't affect my argument. Determining and mind-door adverting are > > the same consciousness but arise in sense-door and mind-door > > processes, respectively. ===== The cetasika sanna plays the same role in all cittas. In some cittas, the cetasika sanna may play a more important role in supporting the function of the citta as defined by citta-niyama. The tadarammana citta arises naturally (according to citta-niyama) because the javana cittas are finished yet the object still persists. The same past kamma which caused the arising of the earlier cittas in the process now pushes the tadarammana citta into existence. The nature of the tadarammana citta (pleasant or indifferent feeling, strength of various cetasikas) will be influenced by accumulations through natural decisive support condition. The votthapana/manodvaraavajjana citta comes to a conclusion regarding an object. The investigating function, where sanna and vicara would play an important role, was done by the santirana citta. You may find it interesting to note that within the citta process, votthapana is the first arising of energy (viriya). Perhaps you may want to characterize votthapana as being more energetic than previous cittas in the citta process? The falling away of the votthapana/manodvaraavajjana citta is one of the conditions for the arising of the set of javana cittas. The type of javana cittas which arise depends on accumulations. Hope that this helps :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 38786 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Rob (and Larry and Nina) - In a message dated 11/24/04 11:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Larry (and Howard / Nina), > > I would like to butt in here... > > ============================ I like the Citta vs citta distinction very much, but I will never remember which is which!! ;-)) One point I'd like to address in your post: You pointed out that various cetasikas are "the same" in all mindstates. I don't think that is "quite" true, as there are variations of various sorts, including variation of strength, and other nuances. Each so called cetasika is, itself, actually a khandha of sorts - an aggregate of similar phenomena. Also, more specifically, sa~n~na doesn't function the same in all mindstates, I believe. Sometimes it is a marking operation, but other times it is a memory-comparison operation making use of markings left by prior Sa~n~na's. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38787 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Howard ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Some may understand it, but only at the conventional level. > That is equally so for Buddhists. What constitutes being a Buddhist? Taking refuge? That won't necessarily do anything. Taking the precepts? All religions observe the Buddhist precepts. --------------------------------------------------------- k: Yes religions followed precepts, but in the Book of Analysis, under the chapter Analysis of the Precepts, one can do perform precepts without any association with panna. I am not saying that Buddhist are better than non-Buddhist in virtue or conduct, I am trying to say that anatta make a pivotal difference in cessation of rebirth as non-Buddhist have the other two and not three. ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would sooner speak of three *doors* to liberation. And I > do think these doors are different, but the moment one is opened, so are the others. > -------------------------------------- k: The doors are different because the insight that emerges to take one of the three characteristics will determine the door of liberation. ---------------------------------------- > The Buddha, of course, being a Buddha, had the quintessence > of realization and had mastered all the perfections, and thus was a > perfect teacher of Dhamma, including anatta. But even his teaching of Dhamma, including anatta, was insufficient, on its own, to lead others to liberation. Their minds had to be fertile fields for that teaching, cultivated by much practice, either in that lifetime or prior ones. What is most important in the Buddhadhamma, in my opinion, is not so much his reporting of the insights into reality he obtained, but his methods of training that lead to them, and to the realization of nibbana. > ----------------------------------------------- k: There is no doubt there are non-Buddhists who mind are fertile and melleable for teaching of anatta. Buddhist at first wishes to teach his two teachers as he knows they will know the truth very fast but unfortunately both of them passed away. To me insights and methods are equally important for all types of worldings. Furthemore, his methods and insight are all based on the three characteristics. --------------------------------------------------- > I don't put much stock in the foregoing. The Ps is a rather late addition to the Sutta Pitaka, is radically different from earlier suttas, and is clearly a cut-and-paste document that is commentaral in sense and style. > -------------------------------------------------- k: By the way, what is Ps? I do not know. I just quoting the above as I seen it in Visud which I think should be correct. Ken O 38788 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Hello again, James. Come to think of it, sorry for the overkill with that sutta reference. I am enthusiastic about the topic, but you've been patient enough. No need to reply. Still interested in the Abhidhamma material, if it's available. If your contention that it is K Sujin's "no control" philosophy rather than Abhidhamma is true, it is definitely something I need to know more about. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) > > > Hi James > > > If I reply to any of this post I'm afraid you will become absolutely > > unglued, go ballistic, and we will have a repeat of the type of > > posts we exchanged when you first joined DSG. 38789 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Friend Phil, Okay, I will try to give you a response since you seem to really want it. Phil: Sensible decision, James. I have a tendency to get irritated by a great many things, so please don't take it personally. I'm sure you didn't. James: It is good of you to admit this. I also get irritated by a great many things but try my best to work on that tendency and to decrease the irritation. How? I examine my thoughts and my bodily reactions until the process becomes unraveled and dissipates. Am I always successful? No. Actually, the thing that seems to irritate me quite often is this group! ;-)) I have a friend here in Egypt who practically begs me not to read the posts of this group because they sometimes put me into a bad mood for days! However, that is my fault. I now try to read the posts and `let go' of the posts I don't agree with. Sometimes, I simply don't respond. This is progess. Phil: happened across another sutta this morning that really drives home the point I was making about the unskillfulness of trying to block out all bad thoughts. James: I didn't write anything about trying to "block out all bad thoughts". This is one of the things that irritate me about a group discussion format: being asked to defend positions I didn't make. It is really a waste of energy to try to sort out the tangle that arises in other's minds. To keep this simple: You misinterpreted what I wrote about Right Resolve for teenagers. Maybe that was my fault because I tried to keep it simple for a simple audience; I didn't go into all of the details. You know the details; you have examined this subject in detail, so please drop it already! Grrrrrrr… ;-)) (just kidding). Phil: Also, when I asked for Abhidhamma related material that point at control, I wasn't doing it in a he-will-not-be-able-to-answer-and- I-will-be-proven-right way. I am sincerely interested, so if you know of any please do pass them along. James: Phil, in your other post in this tread you wrote that I told you that the Abhidhamma has some evidence of control, and you asked me to provide that evidence (to paraphrase). Again, I am being asked to defend a position I didn't make. It doesn't even make sense that I would say such a thing: I know practically nothing about the Abhidhamma! Part of me doesn't want to know (for fear of polluting my mind with weird concepts) and part of me doesn't really care (it is just about the most boring subject in the world! ;-) As well as being absolutely useless to me). But, even with that said, let's look at this question of yours. Your question implies that you don't believe in `control', and yet you do believe in Rob M's phrase of `training the puppy' (as you state in another post). Phil, there is no difference between these two things! The difference is only a semantic one. What is the difference between controlling a puppy and training a puppy? At least by my use of the word, there isn't any difference. However, you will find if you ask Nina that she doesn't even believe `training' is possible. Her position is that one should just read and study the texts, wait for panna (wisdom) to arise naturally from such an activity, and this will slowly rid the mind of defilements (over a period of several thousand lifetimes). It is a very `hands off approach' ;-). And this is what I was speaking against. The Buddha didn't teach that! Now, back the Abhidhamma, does the Abhidhamma have any evidence of control or training the mind? As far as I know, I don't think so. But why should it? To use an analogy, the Abhidhamma is like a car manual, but instead of being a car it is supposed to be a manual for reality. When one reads a car manual, that lists and describes all the parts of the car in detail, does one really get the idea or `feel' for a real car? Does one even know what a real car is capable of doing? I don't think so. Actually, one might even get the idea that a `car' doesn't really exist, only its parts exist. But if that is true, do the parts even exist? What are the parts made up of? So, we come back to what the Buddha taught: the elements of earth, air, fire, water, consciousness, and space. That is all you need to know. To me, the Abhidhamma is a colossal waste of time, but some people seem to like it so I guess `that is all I got to say about that' ;-). Metta, James 38790 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:57pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 58 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (e) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** The proximate cause of saññå is an object, in whatever way that appears. The object can be a paramattha dhamma, i.e. nåma or rúpa, or a concept (paññatti). Whatever object citta cognizes, saññå recognizes and marks it. Saññå performs its function through each of the six doors. There is saññå at this moment. When there is seeing there is saññå and it recognizes and marks visible object. When there is hearing there is saññå which recognizes and marks sound. There is saññå when there is smelling, tasting, touching or when there is the experience of objects through the mind-door. Cittas experience objects through the six doors and the saññå which accompanies citta experiences the object through the same doorway and performs its function accordingly. ***** [Ch.2 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38791 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Hi James, and all >Okay, I will try to give you a response since you seem to really >want it. Looks like our paths crossed there. Thanks again for your friendly patience. James: Phil, in your other post in this tread you wrote that I told you that the Abhidhamma has some evidence of control, and you asked me to provide that evidence (to paraphrase). Again, I am being asked to defend a position I didn't make. It doesn't even make sense that I would say such a thing: I know practically nothing about the Abhidhamma! Part of me doesn't want to know (for fear of polluting my mind with weird concepts) and part of me doesn't really care (it is just about the most boring subject in the world! ;-) As well as being absolutely useless to me). Phil: I guess you don't remember - there's no reason you should- but soon after I joined DSG I made a statement that Nina corrected, and you said that you thought it was a fair statement that I had made. You said that I should be sure to look into different approaches to Abhidhamma, because not all were as non-control as found here. And you gave me a link to an article by an Asian academic, whom you had written to to ask about studying with. I'm only on e-mail, so I can't go and find it in the archives, but it is there. So now I am curious what it was - I can't remember. If there is anyone else who has reason to believe that other approaches to Abhidhamma propose more control than K Sujin's, please send info along to me, on or off list. I have yet to find anything in CMA that doesn't synch with K Sujin. Some of TBBS (I wanted to be the first to use that acronym!) is a bit different, but Rob M has already talked about those points. As for the appeal of Abhidhamma, James. I predict you will have a Saul moment. You will suddenly be struck by the penetrative beauty of Abhidhamma, change your name from James to Cetasikames and lead the global revival of Abhidhamma, saving it from seeming oblivion! And I will follow you then! I hope you will not be having any DSG induced unhappiness, not because of me at least. I won't pester you anymore - until I do! Metta, Phil 38792 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi KK, A belated welcome to DSG. Thank you for sharing your views and introducing yourself here with many interesting details. I’d like to take up just one point from your post to Howard: --- "L.A. Uberstrasse" wrote: > Of course I balked at the idea of not reading some of the vast amounts > of literature written about Buddhism ( including the commentaries) to > begin with. But I now understand why not reading is of importance if > wanting to repeat the experiment the Buddha performed as closely as > possible. In the time of the Buddha, there was not writing and so no > one of the folowers was going home and pouring over books. They were > instead listening each evening to a subject of Dhamma, hearing it > several times in repetition, and then going and meditating in the forest > and "directly seeing" for themselves what the Buddha observed and had > taught in this discourse or that, coming to there own direct > conclusions. …. S: Of course, what you say is very true and if were listening each evening to a discourse told by the Buddha, appropriate for our limited wisdom and able to ‘directly see’ as a result, then definitely there would be no need to open any book, let alone discuss them as we do here. But of course, we don’t have the opportunity to directly listen to the Buddha (and no need to discuss the Buddha’s ‘experiment’), and so we’re left with the Dhamma which he urged us to follow in his place. How we ‘study’ this Dhamma, will depend on circumstances and inclinations, but without doubt, a careful considering of the words will be important. Even during the Buddha’s lifetime, he encouraged followers to listen to the extra details and elaborations given by his key disciples. What they spoke was in accordance with his words and therefore the Dhamma-Vinaya too. …. > The Buddha's idea of teaching in this way was new at the time too. > Direct experience, Direct Knowledge, Direct Wisdom, keeping only what > was truly useful to the sutdent, that which led to happiness and calm in > the direction of the path. The very idea of advice to not accept what a > teacher said because he said it seemed preposterous at the time I > imagine. The Buddha was stepping away from the idea that the teacher was > like a God. You don't argue with a God. You just do it and accept it, > even if it doesn't feel good and isn't consistent or contradicts other > things the teacher said etc. …. S: If we don’t read or consider any of those ‘vast amounts of literature….(inc. the commentaries)’, how will we know whether our perceived ‘Direct experience…….Direct Wisdom’ has anything to do with what was taught by the Buddha? After all, even God’s students think they have ‘Direct’ this and that. When you talk about leading to happiness, what do you mean by ‘happiness’? …. > So, anyway, Howard, thinking can keep us from flowing forward and > discovering the deeper levels. If we stop to think too much, we can get > stuck. Contemplation of what was seen after a session is fine but a > great deal of comparison with this and that commentary and other > conclusions of other teachers along the way on what was seen leads us > into time spent outside our own Direct knowledge and proceeding further. > As adults it is very hard to accpet this. Younger students don't seem to > have any problem with it. …. S: Can there be any awareness or understanding of thinking as just another conditioned dhamma? Can any self really start or stop thinking? Can there only be ‘Direct knowledge’ when there is no thinking? Can there be ‘Direct knowledge’ now, or must we wait for another time when we’re not discussing Dhamma? Yes, it’s hard for me to accept rules and limitations about how and when ‘Direct knowledge’ can arise or to accept there can be any ‘Direct knowledge’ when there isn’t any understanding of the various dhammas being experienced at this very moment. Younger students may not have this kind of a problem, but is that any indication of any more ‘Direct knowledge’? Might it just be ignorance instead? Look forward to more discussions. I know you said you were traveling, so never a need to rush to respond…..I’m usually slow too;-). Metta, Sarah ======= 38793 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Howard, Can't argue with you when you're right... :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Larry and Nina) - > > In a message dated 11/24/04 11:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > > > Hi Larry (and Howard / Nina), > > > > I would like to butt in here... > > > > > ============================ > I like the Citta vs citta distinction very much, but I will never > remember which is which!! ;-)) > One point I'd like to address in your post: You pointed out that > various cetasikas are "the same" in all mindstates. I don't think that is "quite" > true, as there are variations of various sorts, including variation of > strength, and other nuances. Each so called cetasika is, itself, actually a khandha of > sorts - an aggregate of similar phenomena. Also, more specifically, sa~n~na > doesn't function the same in all mindstates, I believe. Sometimes it is a > marking operation, but other times it is a memory-comparison operation making use > of markings left by prior Sa~n~na's. Also, the role of cetana will be different in a javana citta versus a non-javana citta. Metta, Rob M :-) 38794 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/25/04 12:29:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > k: By the way, what is Ps? I do not know. I just quoting the above > as I seen it in Visud which I think should be correct. > > =========================== The Patisambhidamagga (in the Khudakka Nikaya), I presume. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38795 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/25/04 2:41:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Can't argue with you when you're right... :-) > ======================= Gee, you really shouldn't shortchange yourself, Rob. My being right doesn't stop *other* folks from arguing with me!! (Just kidding, everyone! As Mae West said: I can resist anything except temptation!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38796 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:30am Subject: Talk between Bhante & Sarah Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi , (Phil briefly at the end of the post), I apologise for the delay in responding to you.(I've also changed the subject heading as requested by Htoo from 'Sarah: "One Path"'.) --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings Sarah, > > I think we are basically saying the same things, with a few minor > changes. Again my approach is not through words but direct experience so > the language is a little different. When I first came onto this site I > asked the question about what Pan~n~a meant and I see that you used the > word understanding. Is this what Pa~n~na means to you? This is just a > question to help me clarify what you are talking about not a leading > question to pounce on. …. S: Thank you for this. Sukin wrote more helpful details. There are many kinds and levels of pa~n~naa, but usually in context, I’m referring to the panna which must accompany sati (awareness) in the development of satipatthana, the ‘one way ‘ you referred to which is the development of the path leading to the eradication of all defilements. In the Satipatthana Sutta we also read about ‘sati sampaja~n~na’. Sampaja~n~na is a synonym for this kind of panna. Samma ditthi is another. Vipassana another still. Sati sampajanna is developed by being aware and understanding the various realities or paramattha dhammas as enumerated in all the suttas and included in the four foundations of mindfulness. The confusion usually comes in because these realities are not understood even on a conceptual level. So we need to consider more what they are. The extract you typed out for Hugo referred to the seeing consciousness, the visible objects, the contact, feelings, thinking and so on, I believe. These are all realities which can be known by sati and panna now, if there has been the right considering and understanding developed. ….. > I think the main differences between what you are saying and what I am > saying is in how craving arises and manifests. You are talking about > just > being "mindful" of it and I am talking about letting it go and relaxing. …. Perhaps we can agree that it is panna which ‘lets go’ by understanding the dhamma for what it is at that moment. As soon as there is any idea of trying to let it go, it’s sure to be ‘Self’ behind it again. And if there’s any wishing to have less craving or less tension and so on, again it indicates further attachment to self being a certain way with less of this and that and more sati and panna. Attachment to self is so very strongly rooted, I find. It’s ready to sneak in at every opportunity and so often it’s not just attachment but also a view of self being able to do this or that or existing with tension and craving too. No understanding of dhammas as mere elements, devoid of self, at such times. Like Htoo mentioned, tightness or tension of the body is merely vayo (air) element or different elements appearing. Mental tension is merely a combination of various mental elements such as aversion and unpleasant feeling. All these elements are conditioned, impermanent and not self at all. None of them are of any importance – just elements to be known for what they are. ….. > There is a subtle difference there. I think the just being aware of it > and letting it be is not quite enough. If one doesn't let it go, the > rest > of the process of Dependent Origination will carry on. …. S: There is no self to let it be or not let it be, to let it go or not let it go. If an element or reality has arisen by conditions, it’s arisen anyway. Either there is or there isn’t any awareness or understanding of it at the moment when it’s experienced. If one has an idea of ‘letting it go’, it’s just thinking with an idea of self that can ‘let go’ at that moment. Having any ideas of self or control or of ‘letting go’ will merely accumulate more avijja and make it impossible to ever understand the intricacies of conditioned dhammas as elaborated in D.O. That’s why I suggested we start by looking at avijja. D.O. will be the nature of things whether or not there is any understanding developed or not. …. >For example, in > the Satipatthana Sutta it says about the hindrances - "Here there being > sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sensual desire > in > me' or there being no sensual desire in him, he understands, 'There is > no > sensual desire in me'. > > Lets stop here for a brief moment. This is being mindful to the fact > that > sensual desire is present or not. And this seems to be what you are > talking about when you say just be mindful of this. But there is a much > deeper insight to be seen when one goes on with this description it > says: > > "He also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen > sensual desire, and how there comes to be the abandoning of the arisen > sensual desire, and how there comes to be the future non-arising of > abandoned sensual desire". > > In practical terms I think that just being mindful of the arisen sensual > desire is not enough. And this seems to say the same thing. ….. S: Before there can be any understanding of the arising and passing away of dhammas, there has to be a clear understanding of these dhammas. We may think we know when there is sensual desire, but do we? Is there any understanding of sensual desire right now when we look at visible object appearing as we write/read or hear a sound? Is there an attempt to be aware of it as we speak? Then it’s attachment again, attachment to being aware of sensual desire. When understanding develops of realities appearing now, we begin to understand how it’s always been this way and will continue to be this way in the future. Merely conditioned dhammas arising and passing away. No self to stop, control or put anything away, let alone to interrupt the laws of D.O. I think I’ve talked too much already. I appreciated all your explanations very much and apologise for having to snip the rest of your post and just pick out a few comments for response. I hope this clarifies a little what I mean when I refer to the development of understanding. I look forward to hearing from you, Bhante. Metta, Sarah p.s I liked a comment you made to Phil very much with regard to the war. You wrote: ‘Are you sure that this “war” is real? What is the ultimate reality of this?’ I also appreciated the questions which followed in which you paraphrased the Buddha as asking whether the cultivation of such thoughts and feelings leads to happiness or affliction and so on. The comments were helpful. What is the purpose of being embroiled in such proliferations we might ask? We take these conceptual worlds for being real, forgetting that when we read a paper or hear the news that it’s only visible object or sound appearing……and then, lots and lots of paying attention to signs and details ….When there is less wrong view about the various realities which really make up our 'worlds', there will naturally be less inclination to speculate in this way - 'naturally' without any self needing to do anything. ============= 38797 From: ashkenn2k Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:54am Subject: [dsg] Contact HI Howard and DN Expositor pg 144, <> Ken O 38798 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Antony, Another great thread which I’m slow to respond to…Apologies. --- antony272b2 wrote: > I wrote: > > >My only > > > doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The > critical > > > Pali > > > phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who > > > *deserves* > > > more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be > found) … > S: How about 'a person who is dearer than oneself.....(cannot be > found)? > > A: Is this your translation of the Pali? …. S: It was a vague recollection of the Udana verse (a favourite of mine for a long time) and commentary only;-) Piya is usually translated as ‘dear’. Let me do a little better here – the phrase is used in context here: ‘n'ev'ajjhagaapiyataram attanaa kvaci `.....One would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any Place **** In context: After King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika concluded that indeed there was No one dearer than themselves, the Buddha spoke these lines in Udana, 5- 1, `Dear' (Masefield trans): "Having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain That dearer than the self in any place; thus is the self dear separately To others - therefore one desiring self should not harm another." The commentary adds: ".....One would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place (n'ev'ajjhagaapiyataram attanaa kvaci): whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.Thus is the self dear separately to others (evam piyo puthu attaa paresa.m): thus is the self alone dear separately, severally, to this and that being, by way of the non-discovery of anyone dearer than the self. "Therefore one desiring self should not harm another (tasmaa na hi.mse param attakaama): since each being holds the self dear in that way, isone desiring happiness for that self, one for whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, should not even antagonise with the hand....and so on, another being, upwards from and including even a mere ant or (other) samll insect. for when dukkha is caused by oneself to some other, that (dukkha) is, after an interval of time, observed in one's (own) self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law of karma." ***** > Here is the original discussion on Buddhaviharas: > > According to the Buddha, 'You can search throughout the entire > > universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and > affection > > than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found > anywhere. > > You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve > your > > love and affection.' > > > ~ Sharon Salzberg, "Loving-Kindness: the Revolutionary Art of > > Happiness." > ......... > A: I thought that Sharon Salzberg, as a lay teacher, had got carried > away and unintentionally misrepresented the Buddha and that her quote > was the one that is all over the InterNet (never with the reference > to the Pali Canon, just with the signature "-Buddha"). …. S: I believe it’s quite wrong. …. >This annoyed > me greatly and I didn't have access to her to point out her fault. > Then I was very surprised to read the translation of Mahasi Sayadaw > as also using the word "deserve". Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching is always > very sober, so much so that I actually find it entertaining. …. S: Like S.S. I also followed the MS approach initially. Btw, you particularly liked the MS lecture which Dighanakha posted (#37871). I liked parts of it only. I was going to pick up on it with him, but he’s gone quiet;-(. I’d be happy to discuss some of the areas I’m not keen on with you if you like. …. > Patrick Kearney, an Australian teacher in the Mahasi Sayadaw > tradition (he didn't like it once when I pointed out another quote by > Mahasi that contradicted him (that Paticcasamuppada applies to three > lifetimes)). He wrote: > > "I cannot trace any such passage in the Buddha's teachings, but the > above may be a reference to the following verse, which occurs in both > Kosala Samyutta 8 and Udana 47: > > "Covering every direction with the mind, One finds no-one one loves > more than oneself. In the same way, others love their own self - > Therefore one who loves himself does not harm another." …. S: This is correct as I read it. I’ll leave his other comments, but raise them again if you’d like to discuss them further. …. A: I still wish that I deserved metta - that God loves me etc. ….. S: I asked Chris why she wanted it to be possible to have metta towards oneself. Of course, the answer is attachment to oneself. Self is so very, very dear that we’d like everyone including Self and God to love us!! We don’t realize that it’s this self-love and illusion which causes all the problems in life. Thankyou for quoting from the Sankha Sutta too. …. > "That disciple of the noble ones, headman -- thus devoid of > covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful -- > keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness > imbued with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, > likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. …. …. S:’ thus devoid of covetousness…’, i.e no clinging to self at moments of metta etc. I hope this elaborates on my earlier comments. Please keep discussing this area as it's an important one. If one thinks one should develop metta to oneself, one will just develop more and more attachment and it will bring more and more problems. Metta, Sarah ========= 38799 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Antony, The extra point;-) --- antony272b2 wrote: > Using logic (which isn't always good Dhamma), as the Buddha said > that "one who loves himself does not harm another", whether or not > one *deserves* love and affection for oneself, does it follow that > one who *doesn't* love himself *is* harming others? .... No. It means that if we consider how we like to hear pleasant words, have pleasant experiences of all kinds and so on, so do others. Less attachment to self will lead to more, not less, consideration of others' needs and wishes. It's just an example -- like saying by understanding how important it is to develop awareness, so it is for others with whom one shares the teachings. The same universal truths about self-attachment, wishing for pleasant experiences, ignorance and so on, apply to all. Metta, Sarah ========