39000 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Rob K) Hi Phil, I read it with interest anyway... :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello all > > The Rob is Rob K. > > > > Hello Rob, and all > > > > Carrying on with my de-feeding of the schadenfreude beast. > > Last night I did check the headlines, and scanned a few stories, > > but felt no great interest and this morning no desire to look. > > > > > > Rob: Is there anything other than the khandhas arising when you are > > watching TV. > (snip) > > Metta, > Phil 39001 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:33pm Subject: Re: Degrees of mindfulness of death and degrees of defilements (was Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Hi James Just to quickly point out that the below is referring to me, and anyone who happens to have a lot of crude defilements. No intention of suggesting that you are in that category. We have know way of knowing the other's cittas, though there *is* evidence at times! (eg my irritated outbursts) > See, he is urging us towards much more momentary considerations. People > with cruder defilements > can benefit more from thinking of death in terms of this lifetime and what > has or has not been accomplished. > As their defilements become more subtle, and their insight more refined, > everything gradually becomes > much more focused on the moment. And that includes mindfulness of death. Metta, Phil 39002 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 61 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (h) Hi Larry Sanna dont hide impermanence neither does memory in concept terms. It is moha Ken O 39003 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Heedfulness? Hello all Reading today about the five faculties, found this from SN XLVII.56: "When one quality is established in a monk, the five faculties are developed and developed well. Which one quality?" Apparently, It is not mindfulness -that is one of the faculties that this heedfulness supports. Rather, it is referring to "the case where a monk guards his mind in the midst of mental effluents and their concomitants." What is this heedfulness? Is it my friend yoniso m? What does the Pali have for this sutta? Thanks in advance! Metta, Phil 39004 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Hi Joop You are asking a very good question. How do we draw a line between human and animals. My opinion, animals and human are have kusala cittas that will arise, however, the difference is the intensity of the aksuala cittas and kusala cittas. In animals, the moha and lobha are very strong and hence this make the development of kusala cittas very minimal and not strong enough to develop understanding of the dhamma. The human is different, ignorance though also strong but the panna can also be strong, so there is possibility of development. That is why concentrating on walking and breathing can be a dangerous activities because animal also do them. Hence when Buddha talks about breath and walk or eat, it is always with understanding or wise attention. And the understanding is not about concepts of breath or eat or walk, when Buddha talks about breath, and walk, it is always talking in terms of paramatha dhamma, about rupas, about sense consciouness. Breath can be decipher into motion, heat, pressure and solidity. Breath can also be in terms of contact, feelings etc. My opinion the panna of animal cannot decipher them, it only knows breathing as breathing in terms of concepts. Ken O 39005 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heedfulness? Phil: "Hello all Reading today about the five faculties, found this from SN XLVII.56: "When one quality is established in a monk, the five faculties are developed and developed well. Which one quality?" Apparently, It is not mindfulness -that is one of the faculties that this heedfulness supports. Rather, it is referring to "the case where a monk guards his mind in the midst of mental effluents and their concomitants." What is this heedfulness? Is it my friend yoniso m? What does the Pali have for this sutta?" Hi Phil, In my SN it is XLVIII,56 and B. Bodhi translates it as diligence. The Pali is appamada: appamáda: 'zeal', non-laxity, earnestness, diligence, is considered as the foundation of all progress. Just as all the footprints of living beings are surpassed by the footprint of the elephant, and the footprint of the elephant is considered as the mightiest amongst them, just so have all the meritorious qualities zeal as their foundation, and zeal is considered as the mightiest of these qualities'' (A. X, 15). Cf. the Chapter on Zeal (Appamáda Vagga) in Dhp., and the Buddha's last exhortation: "Transient are all formations. Strive zealously!" (appamádena sampádetha: D. 16) - In the commentaries, it is often explained as the presence (lit. 'non-absence') of mindfulness (satiyá avippavása). Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Larry 39006 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heedfulness? Hi again Phil, I notice that both chanda and appamada are translated as zeal: chanda: intention, desire, will. 1. As an ethically neutral psychological term, in the sense of 'intention', it is one of those general mental factors (cetasika, q.v. Tab. II) taught in the Abhidhamma, the moral quality of which is determined by the character of the volition (cetaná, q.v.) associated therewith. The Com. explains it as 'a wish to do' (kattu-kamyatá-chanda). If intensified, it acts also as a 'predominance condition' (s. paccaya 3). 2. As an evil quality it has the meaning of 'desire', and is frequently coupled with terms for 'sensuality', 'greed', etc., for instance: káma-cchanda, 'sensuous desire', one of the 5 hindrances (s. nívarana); chanda-rága, 'lustful desire' (s. káma). It is one of the 4 wrong paths (s. agati). 3. As a good quality it is a righteous will or zeal (dhamma-chanda) and occurs, e.g. in the formula of the 4 right efforts (s. padhána): "The monk rouses his will (chandam janeti)...." If intensified, it is one of the 4 roads to power (s. iddhipáda). http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Larry 39007 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear friend James, > N: I fully agree! > Understanding has to be developed, not of the dhamma appearing yesterday, > but appearing now. It has just fallen away, agreed, but its characteristic > can be known. > Suppose you are angry, and there is wise attention to anger. The mind with > wise attention cannot arise at the same time as the angry mind, how could > they occur together. But wise attention can arise just after anger has > fallen away. > Nina. Friend Nina, Huh? Mindfulness of the present moment includes mindfulness of past moments? Then what is the whole point of the slogan "Knowing the dhammas appearing now"? (which, even though I agree with it in principal, rubs me the wrong way because of the way it is used to avoid formal practice). It seems to me that you are just talking about plain mindfulness: The Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Well, then, we don't have any disagreement…what exactly are we talking about again? LOL! I give up. I think I am going to just go sit in a corner and babble incoherently to myself… ;-)) Metta, James 39008 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:21pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 62 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (i) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** Also when we do not remember something or we mistake something for something else, there is saññå which accompanies the cittas at such moments. If we have forgotten something, we did not think of the object we wanted to think of but at that moment we were thinking of another object and this was remembered and marked by saññå. For example, if we go to the market and forget to buy lettuce because we suddenly notice tomatoes and our attention turns to the tomatoes, we say that we have forgotten to buy lettuce. In reality there are moments of saññå all the time since it accompanies each citta, and saññå performs its function all the time. It depends on conditions what object is remembered at a particular moment, it does not always turn out the way ‘we’ want it. Also when we in vain try to remember a name, there is still saññå, but it remembers and ‘marks’ an object which is different from the concept we think we should remember. We may have aversion because of our forgetfulness and also then there is citta accompanied by saññå which performs its function. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 39009 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 0:40am Subject: Re: What means 'no control' ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > > Hi Joop, Christine, All, > "[...]According to the back Index, Latent Disposition is mentioned in 'A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' at ch. VIII 9, 14. " Thanks Connie and Nina. I have been reading it (skipped chapter VII of CMA till now) This text and what Nina have been written about it, gives me a good impression of what "latent dispositions" means. It's still strange to me that everything rises and falls away but (even the fruit of kamma disappears, as far as I understand, although it can take some lifes) but why this dispositions not fall away: not in a split second, not in some years and not in aeons? And, as explained to Nina yesterday, my main question still is: it still also the case for animals ? I think it is. That does interest me because I'm not anthropocentric. Metta Joop 39010 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:07am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 139) Dear Dhamma Friends, We are centering on citta as citta is the leader. There are 89 citta in total if magga cittas arise without jhana. When arise in the vicinity of jhana, there will be 121 total cittas. There have to be 121 total cittas because of different combinations of cetasikas. Citta itself is pure, luminous, and sinless as its main function is just to know the object. As this reality citta is at any given time accompanied by different combinations of cetasikas, citta has different names and in total there have to be 121 cittas. We have discussed on citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannati and we have discussed on each of 89 cittas and each of 121 cittas. After that we have discussed on each of 52 cetasikas and then followed by discussions on each of 28 rupas. These studies sound like we are studying at atomic level. Subatomic level does not recognize any element. So we have at least discussed on elementary unit of each dhamma. There is nothing more than these dhammas. Now we are discussing molecular level. 2 hydrogen atoms combine with 1 oxygen atom this cause 1 molecule of water. Like this chemistry, when 1 'citta atom' is combine with 7 cetasika atoms, they form a molecule of 'dvipancavinnana citta'. So far at molecular level, we have discussed on 40 lokuttara cittas and their accompanying cetasikas, 27 mahaggata cittas ( 15 rupavacara cittas and 12 arupavacara cittas )and their accompanying cetasikas. Among 81 loki cittas or mundane consciousness, we have discussed on 27 jhana cittas. 81 - 27 = 54 . So there left 54 kamavacara cittas. Again these 54 cittas are 24 sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness and 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful consciousness. Jhana cittas, magga cittas, and phala cittas are higher cittas and hard to understand if there is no Dhamma experience. But 54 kamavacara cittas are all cittas that are frequently arising at each moment and they are our daily life. 54 kamavacara cittas will be discussed in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39011 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 140 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 54 kamavacara cittas. These 54 cittas are consciousness of sensuous plane. This means that these cittas are mental states that reflect beings in sensuous planes such as human being, deva beings, hell beings, animal beings, peta beings, asura beings. Among them 24 cittas are beautiful consciousness. They are called sobhana cittas. These 24 sobhana cittas are also called kama sobhana cittas as there are sobhana cittas of other planes like rupavacara cittas, arupavacara cittas and lokuttara cittas. These 24 kama sobhana cittas can be grouped into 3 classes. These 3 classes are functionally different. They are 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas, and 8 mahakiriya cittas. It is called 8 mahakusala cittas to differentiate these 8 cittas from other kusala cittas like rupakusala cittas which are rupa jhana and arupakusala cittas which are arupa jhana. Magga cittas are lokuttara kusala cittas. But they cannot confuse us as they are lokuttara cittas. Again 8 mahavipaka cittas have this name because there are other vipaka cittas. They are ahetuka vipaka cittas, rupavipaka cittas, and arupavipaka cittas. 4 phala cittas are called lokuttara vipaka cittas but they do not confuse us as they are lokuttara cittas. Again 8 mahakiriya cittas have the name 'maha' to differentiate them from other kiriya cittas like rupakiriya cittas, arupakiriya cittas. Ahetuka vipaka cittas do not confuse us as 2 of them are universal to all beings when beings have one of panca dvaras. Hasituppada citta is the smiling citta of arahats and this does not confuse us. So there are 8 makakusala cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas, and 8 mahakiriya cittas and they all are collectively called 24 maka sobhana cittas. Their molecular level discussions are coming soon. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39012 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:40am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 141 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Recently I repeated many cittas and many Pali words. This will help proper understanding of Dhamma. I do not think these are very heavy to carry out and work out if enough effort is produced. 1. kama 2. kamavacara 3. sobhana 4. kusala 5. vipaka 6. kiriya 7. maha 8. citta All these have been explained in earlier posts. Kama means 'sensuous things' 'sensuous matters'. What we see, hear, smell, taste, touch, and thought related to these 5 senses and their related matters are collectively called 'kama'. Kamavacara is made up of 'kama' and 'avacara'. Here kama does not mean the 'above meaning of kama'. But this 'kama' means 'kama bhumis' or sensuous planes. Avacara means 'frequently arising'. So kamavacara means 'frequently arising in kama bhumis or sensuous plane'. Sobhana means 'beautiful' 'good' 'good quality'. Kusala means 'wholesome action' 'good action' 'good-kamma producing action'. Vipaka means 'resultant'. Kiriya means 'functional' 'inoperative' 'non-kamma-producing'. Maha means 'great' and citta means 'consciousness'. Citta is the seat of mind. Citta is the focus of mind. Citta is the heart of mind. Citta is to know object. Object may be light, sound, smell, taste, touch, idea of one of 5 senses and other ideas. Citta is conscious to at a time one of these mentioned senses or ideas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39013 From: Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Hi, James and Nina - In a message dated 11/28/04 11:52:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > >Dear friend James, > > >N: I fully agree! > >Understanding has to be developed, not of the dhamma appearing > yesterday, > >but appearing now. It has just fallen away, agreed, but its > characteristic > >can be known. > >Suppose you are angry, and there is wise attention to anger. The > mind with > >wise attention cannot arise at the same time as the angry mind, > how could > >they occur together. But wise attention can arise just after anger > has > >fallen away. > >Nina. > > Friend Nina, > > Huh? Mindfulness of the present moment includes mindfulness of past > moments? Then what is the whole point of the slogan "Knowing the > dhammas appearing now"? (which, even though I agree with it in > principal, rubs me the wrong way because of the way it is used to > avoid formal practice). It seems to me that you are just talking > about plain mindfulness: The Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Well, > then, we don't have any disagreement…what exactly are we talking > about again? LOL! I give up. I think I am going to just go sit in > a corner and babble incoherently to myself… ;-)) > > Metta, James > =========================== I know this fine point isn't all that important, but here are my thoughts on it: First of all, I think that sati is actually the remembering to be attentive to whatever is happening, remembering to maintain clarity. I also think that when one *does* remain attentive, and a mindstate *is* clear, the content of that state is not only very clear right then and there but also "continues" as a fresh memory that too is very clear, only slightly degraded, and that sharp, fresh memory can serve as basis for wise review. This is how I think about the matter, based on my own fevered thoughts and not on Dhamma reading. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39014 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi, I hope you don't mind my coming in here a little bit. I have been watching this some and I am getting confused by some of the things being said below. 1. the Buddha taught that Contact works like this and one can go through this and prove it for oneself: You take one of the sense doors, say the eye. The "eye" meets color and form, and 'eye consciousness" arises; the meeting of the three is contact. This pattern run true with all of the sense doors. It is how "cognition" works. There are six separate sense doors and six sparate consciousnesses which can arise. 2. Only one phenomena can occur at a time. 3. There is no "personality" (personal aspect) taught in Buddhism but rather Anatta ( Impersonal nature of reality ). So it folloows that here is no "individuality" involved in rebirth. The only thing that goes from one life into the next in Buddhism in "kamma". this is different than individuality. 4. If the consciousness you are speaking of a mind consciousness of voidness, then the voidness is, in and of itself, an object here. there can be no consciousness arising without the formula in #1 occuring... 5. Consider the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth. According to that doctrine, continuity of consciousness occurs between the death of one body (one bag of rupa) and the conception in another body (another bag of rupa). In that no two bags of rupa can occupy the same point in space at the same point in time, then how is rebirth occuring? Could you please tell me where this doctrine appears within the suttas or the vinaya? thanks KK Suravira wrote: Dear Howard, Thank you for responding to my messages. > > Consider a continuity of individuality (bhavanga), devoid > > of an intrinsic entity (anatta) - even one that continually exists > > (annica). > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Still you are talking of a consciousness that is an awareness of no > object, [Suravira] The proposition of consciousness that is without content, is not being offered in the above statement. > a consciousness without content, and that always exists, but from time > to time knows an object. [Suravira] The proposition of consciousness that always exists, is not being offered in the above statement, e.g., refer to annica. > Howard: > From my perspective that doesn't help at all. In fact the notion of an > "awareness that is non-localized in space-time" is mighty close to the > Vedantic notion of atman or brahman. [Suravira] No suggestion of a soul (a.k.a. atman, brahman) is being offered, e.g., refer to anatta. Sorry about the term awareness being of no practical use to you in this context. > Howard: > No first beginning should not imply eternalism, but it will if > consciousness is considered to be saome self-same, comtinuous entity. [Suravira] No suggestion of self-same, continuous entity, e.g., refer to anatta and annica. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > My point was simple: Existent consciousness without contact is > consciousness without object. That is not what was taught by the Buddha as I > understand the Dhamma. Nor has it ever been my experience. > ------------------------------------------- > [Suravira] Let me first address your last statement ('Nor has it ever been my experience'). A citta without a contact object is, by definition, not able to be perceived, therefore it is by its nature unconscious. As such none of us are able to state that we have had an unconscious experience. So your assertion is 100% correct. Right on the money! Now for your statement 'Existent consciousness without contact is consciousness without object.' In responce to a sensed object a citta arises, then passes away. The 'contact' event arises and passes away. By the time one (as may be conceived of rightly in accordance with anatta and annica) is conscious of the contact event, that sensed object event is non-existent within the present moment. (So one can readily argue that at any point in time when an object is not being sensed that moment is prior to contact - pick any moment as any moment subsequent to a contact event will be entirely suitable). Between the moment of sense impression and the moment of being conscious of the sensed object (which is to say in the state of being conscious), nama dhamma uncoupled to sense impressions or to concepts (thoughts, memories, etc.) i.e., pannattis dhamma, arise, persist for an instant and cease. These citta devoid of pannattis dhamma and uncoupled to sense impressions are called bhavanga-citta. Citta which we are conscious of ALWAYS have an object- representation, i.e., a concept, thought, memory, etc.). But there are also bhavanga-citta, that is citta without an object- representation, and which we are NEVER conscious of. In short there is an important distinction to be made between being conscious of some thing (which is a state of consciousness) and the nature of consciousness. Consider the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth. According to that doctrine, continuity of consciousness occurs between the death of one body (one bag of rupa) and the conception in another body (another bag of rupa). In that no two bags of rupa can occupy the same point in space at the same point in time, then how is rebirth occuring? Before you explain this, it must be pointed out that at some moment in this transition nama-vinnana must leave one bag of rupa and then arise within another distinctly different bag of rupa - all the while maintaining continuity of individuality. During that transition moment, how can contact occur (in the absense of a bag of rupa, i.e., without 5 physical sense organs)? Furthermore, given that nama has a nature absent of physical properties and therefore absent of any spatial extention, how can nama-vinnana actually occupy a point in space let alone move from that point in space to another point in space? These are not easy questions to grapple with. If the nature of consciousness is such that is always requires contact/concept, then the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth is indefensible (even when taking recourse to arguing from the absolute prespective of truth). Or can the doctrine of rebirth understood by appreciating another aspect of nama-vinnana - i.e., given no spatial extension therefore there is no boundary in which content can be extant. With metta, Suravira 39015 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi KK Rebirth relinking is not about rupa, is about kamma. Kamma links both the dying citta and the rebirth citta. During the rebirth citta, kamma is the one that produces the rupa for that life and it also kamma that determines the dying citta of that previous life. How does kamma does it in such short space and time, only Buddha knows the true working of kamma and this knowledge was not share by his great disciples. I have not come across him explain how does kamma function, how one can be dead in this plane in a split second and then rebirth again in another plane in the next split second. Just like some human become devas immediately after their death as seen in the suttas. Ken O 39016 From: connieparker Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:02am Subject: Re: 6 poems (really 9) Hi, Christine, [...] The Lady now wears the gold robes of a fully ordained Theravada Bhikkhuni [...] But IS she one? I'd sure like to believe it, but as many times as I've gone around and around with it, I just don't. I thought a lot recently about chucking my job and this cushy little life I've got to head off to a wat across the country, telling myself I'd only ordain as a mae chi, but who am I kidding? I'm all to willing to be convinced the Lady IS what her robes suggest. I'm sure I could justify going against my understanding of the tradition to feel more a part of it? I'm really good at twisting things around to my liking: Oh, but I was invited. Why, that's almost a "come, bhikkhu". Conditions brought it my way. "Conditions"?!?!? Stories and my own super monkey glue, more like. And, oh, it's not really breaking the tradition, it's just another little compromise, like the monks buying their own food and such. Flip, flop, wiggle, struggle, squirm... all my thoughts are little herrings and my fishy thinking stinks. Even my sitting here all smug, thinking I might compromise the 10th precept because I've got a job, but all I do is sign the paycheck over to my mom. I don't actually spend the stuff. I don't do this, I don't do that. LOL - I don't even have hair... because I don't like to mess with it. And who's to stop me from wearing anything I might like as long as I have any kind of idea that the clothes make the person? And do I really want to be pressured to sit and 'practice' for someone else's understanding of what I'm supposed to get out of it? I wrote a friend who helped me remember a few things that in my little 'laundry meditation hut' there is also a method and the conventional results are there for anyone to see... also all the paramattha dhammas no matter where and what I'm doing. Actual holy life must be where it is understood, in the actual cittas, with no choice in 'how to live'... not in my stories about it. I told my boss I wouldn't be quitting after all. Anyway, that's my update on the job and I do still care what you, bunches of black and white marks on a screen and my thoughts about them though you may be, might think of me. Was also happy to read I wasn't the only one who felt stupid trying to read between the lines of CMA ch. 8... thank you. Hope Rusty's doing well. Jozai falls down sometimes when he does that dog shake thing and still wobbles more than he used to. I guess one of these days, he'll stay paralyzed. Meanwhile, he's not too interested in my ideas of how he should take it easy. peace, connie 39017 From: Hugo Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:42am Subject: Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) Hello everybody, There have been a few threads from people asking for advice in starting the Path. I found this document from Bhikkhu Khantipalo which is very interesting. Here is one excerpt that stresses the need for a balanced practice (approach of which I am a big fan of): Quote: By way of warning it may be mentioned here that in the Buddhist world can be found a number of "methods" which seem to promise the riches of Dhamma all in no time. One hears such remarks as, "What's the use of books and study?" Or even, "The development of calm is a waste of time! One should only develop insight." Such lop-sided approaches do not reflect the wisdom of Lord Buddha, who taught time and again the necessity of a balanced development of mind. Books and their study are useful to some people who wish to gain a good background of what Lord Buddha really said, before taking up more intensive practice. As for the other assertion, no real insight (only delusive ideas) will arise to the person whose mind has no experience of calm. Such views as these, which are usually based on some peculiar experience of those "teachers" who originate them, are apt to mislead many, since the craving for quick results coupled with the dislike of the necessary hard work, are easily stirred up. There must be patience to accept that the conditions required for success of meditation (as outlined here) have to be fulfilled, and the only result if failing to do so, is straying off the Way. The meditator applies himself steadily to whatever task he has in hand and, coming to the end of it, does not feel tired at all but straightaway takes up a new objective. Greetings, -- Hugo 39018 From: Hugo Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:43am Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) Now, if I add the link, I think it would be more useful for people. :-) http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html -- Hugo 39019 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga disturbed Hi Larry, op 29-11-2004 00:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism.XIV,115 Note 46. "...How does there come to be disturbance of the > life- continuum that has a different support?... > > L: "I assume "different support" means different sense-base. > This suggests 2 rupas to me, internal and external, and explains a > little how defective organs impinge on consciousness with erroneous > data. How do you see it? N: I found another longer text in T.A. (Co. to the Abhidhammmattha Sangaha, p. 126) and I think this clarifies the matter. The support of bhavangacitta is the rupa which is heartbase. I thought so but was not sure. Here is also the simile of the running man, Htoo gave. Text of the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 126): <...For when there is impact with the object by virtue of its being positioned in a place that is suitable for the five sense organs, the sequence of existence-continuum gets interrupted by the experience of that impact on the sense organs [though] it is not interrupted suddenly. As when a man who is running fast wants to stop, stops only after he has taken one or two further steps, so it is interrupted only after it has occurred twice...But surely, when visible forms, etc., make impact with the sense organs it is only vibration of what is supported by those [sense organs] that makes sense, so how is there vibrating of the exitence-continuum which is supported by the heart-base? Because of [their]being bound together as a continuity. For when a fly has alighted on a grain of sugar on one surface of a drum, and the other surface is struck with a stick or whatever, the sugar is made to vibrate by the vibration in turn of the drum¹s skin and cords, etc., and the fly flies off and goes. Similarly when visible form, etc., makes impact with the sense organs, the essential elements, which are their supports, are vibrated, and as a result of the successive vibrating of the other material elements that are bound up with them the heartbase is vibrated, and the vibrating of the existence-continuum that is supported by that causes activity to occur. It is said: One should illustrate by the simile of the grain of sugar how, when one base is struck, there is disturbance of what is supported by some other [base] by reason of their being bound together.> L: The two rupas are the rupa that impinges on the sensitive material of > the sense base and the rupa that interrupts bhavanga and is the object > of consciousness. N: It is the same rupa, say, visible object. This lasts seventeen moments of citta. That is why it can be experienced by cittas in a sense-door process. Also the rupa which is sense organ lasts seventeen moments of citta. L:We could probably say this second rupa is an extension > of the sensitive matter that stretches from the sense base to the mind > base. N: See above. L:In any case this commentary seems to clearly recognize that the > external rupa that impinges on the sensitive matter is not the rupa that > is the object of consciousness. N: Not the object of bhavanga-citta, but it will be the object of the cittas arising in that sense-door process. Nina. 39020 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:59am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 117 and Tiika, 118. . Visuddhimagga XIV, 117 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 117. (d)-(h) Next to adverting,[47] taking the eye door first, 'eye-consciousness' (d) arises accomplishing the function of 'seeing' in the eye door and having the eye-sensitivity as its physical basis. And [likewise] (e) 'ear-', (f) 'nose-', (g) 'tongue-', and (h) 'body-consciousness' arise, accomplishing respectively the functions of 'hearing', etc., in the ear door and so on. N: The visible object that impinges on the eyesense is a condition for seeing. This reminds us that seeing is not self, it can only arise when there are the appropriate conditions. When seeing arises the ruupas which are eyesense and visible object have not fallen away yet. Ruupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta and thus visible object can be experienced by several moments of cittas arising in a process. The same is true for the other sense-cognitions. Vis. text: These comprise the profitable resultant [consciousnesses] (34)-(38) with respect to desirable and desirable-neutral objective fields, and the unprofitable resultant (50)-(54) with respect to undesirable and undesirable-neutral objective fields. N: Seeing and the other sense-cognitions are kusala vipaakacittas or akusala vipaakacittas. Kusala vipaakacitta experiences a desirable object or a moderately desirable object, and akusala vipaakacitta experiences an undesirable object or a moderately undesirable object. Text Vis. :This is how the occurrence of ten kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching. --------------------- Note 47, taken from the Tiika: ' "Next to adverting" means next to five-door adverting. For those who do not admit the cognitive series beginning with receiving, just as they do not admit the heart basis, the Pali has been handed down in various places in the way beginning "For the eye-consciousness element as receiving (sampa.ticchanaaya cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa)" (see Ch. IV, n.13); for the Pali cannot be contradicted' (Pm.479). The quotation as it stands is not traced to the Pi.takas. ---------------------- N: The cittas of the eye-door process such as receiving-consciousness, etc. are not expressively mentioned in the suttas. We read in the suttas about seeing etc. which is followed by defilements or by right understanding. The details of the process, the cittas arising in between seeing etc. and the akusala cittas or kusala cittas, are not expounded in the suttas, nor is the heart-base expressively mentioned. That is why some people will not admit what is explained in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. The Middle Length Sayings, III, no 115, mentions mind element, mano-dhaatu, and mind-consciousness element, mano-viññaa.na-dhaatu, but the details have not been explained. **** Vis. XIV, 118. (i) Because of the words 'Eye-consciousness having arisen and ceased, next to that there arises consciousness, mind, mentation ... which is appropriate mind-element' (Vbh.88), etc., next to eye-consciousness, etc., and 'receiving' the same objective fields as they [deal with], mind-element arises as (39) profitable resultant next to profitable resultant [eye-consciousness, etc.,] and as (55) unprofitable resultant next to [459] unprofitable resultant [eye-consciousness, and so on]. This is how the occurrence of two kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as receiving. N: Mind-element, mano-dhaatu, referred to in this para is the receiving-consciousness, which is either akusala vipaakacitta, or kusala vipaakacitta. When the preceding sense-cognition is akusala vipaakacitta, the receiving-consciousness is also akusala vipaakacitta, and when the preceding sense-cognition is kusala vipaakacitta, the receiving-consciousness is also kusala vipaakacitta. As to the words, consciousness (citta.m), mind (mano), mentation (maanasa.m) which is appropriate mind-element' (Vbh.88), this is taken from the Book of Analysis, p. 114, which gives several synonyms of citta. ****** Nina. 39021 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg]bhavanga, Howard to Suravira. Hi Howard, op 28-11-2004 23:33 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > As I understand it, a bhavanga citta is supposed to have the same > object ads the prior rebirth citta. That is not explained as being without > object > so far as I know. But I am rather ignorant of Abhidhamma and Abhidhammic > commentaries. I would hpoe that some others here more knowledgeable than I > would > weigh in on this topic. (Hint, hint!) N: You explained it well. See recent Vis texts and correspondence with Larry. It is all about bhavanga. Nina. 39022 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) Hello Hugo, all, You may be interested in a little more about the former Khantipalo Bhikkhu - now Mr. Lawrence Mills - and an update on what he is doing nowadays. He was born in Britain in 1932, was a Buddhist Theravada monk from 1959-1991. During the period between 1961-1972 Lawrence was resident in Thailand receiving teachings from many forest meditation teachers. In 1973 he traveled to Australia and helped found the first Buddhist temple in Sydney as well as Wat Buddha Dhamma Forest Meditation Centre. In 1991 Lawrence decided to give back his monastic robes and as a student of Chogyal Namkai Norbu he has continued to actively teach Buddhism. As Lawrence Mills he married and continued in the lay life as the guiding teacher at the all traditions Bodhi Citta Buddhist Centre, Cairns, Queensland, Australia. You can read about this centre at: www.bodhicitta.org.au (I think Azita from dsg has attended that centre on a few occasions). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > Now, if I add the link, I think it would be more useful for people. :-) > > http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/lib/bps/wheels/wheel 116.html > > -- > Hugo 39023 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:26 pm Subject: Re: 6 poems (really 9) Hello Connie, Nice to read you here. Is the Lady (and the, now, scores like her) fully ordained? Yes, I believe so, Connie. But it is not a matter for debate - most debate starts with defending a fixed point of view and often only encourages closed minds. It is best to search for information, weigh the opinions of those you respect, decide what you think is correct and act on it, if you wish. What matters is that Buddhism ought to offer women similar possibilities to live the reclusive life with safety and support (accommodation, clothing, food, medical care and learning) that it offers to men. An interesting Sri Lankan newpaper article: http://www.buddhanet.net/nunorder.htm Jozai clearly has a mind of his own! Rusty is doing well - after two months of not barking after his seizures, he has started growling and barking again as a form of communication. (I had been pestering the Medical consultants at the hospital about what they knew about dogs and aphasia. As it turns out, they now know a lot more now than they did before Rusty's illness:-)) He is also starting to do his joyful dance when I arrive home from work or offer him his evening meal - for eight weeks he had only exhibited a dull stare. I know it is drawing near to the 'end of days' for him, but so it is for all of us. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > Hi, Christine, > > [...] The Lady now wears the gold robes of a fully ordained Theravada > Bhikkhuni [...] > > But IS she one? I'd sure like to believe it, but as many times as I've > gone around and around with it, I just don't. I thought a lot recently > about chucking my job and this cushy little life I've got to head off to a > wat across the country, telling myself I'd only ordain as a mae chi, but > who am I kidding? I'm all to willing to be convinced the Lady IS what her > robes suggest. I'm sure I could justify going against my understanding of > the tradition to feel more a part of it? I'm really good at twisting > things around to my liking: Oh, but I was invited. Why, that's almost a > "come, bhikkhu". Conditions brought it my way. "Conditions"?!?!? > Stories and my own super monkey glue, more like. And, oh, it's not really > breaking the tradition, it's just another little compromise, like the > monks buying their own food and such. Flip, flop, wiggle, struggle, > squirm... all my thoughts are little herrings and my fishy thinking > stinks. Even my sitting here all smug, thinking I might compromise the > 10th precept because I've got a job, but all I do is sign the paycheck > over to my mom. I don't actually spend the stuff. I don't do this, I > don't do that. LOL - I don't even have hair... because I don't like to > mess with it. And who's to stop me from wearing anything I might like as > long as I have any kind of idea that the clothes make the person? And do > I really want to be pressured to sit and 'practice' for someone else's > understanding of what I'm supposed to get out of it? I wrote a friend who > helped me remember a few things that in my little 'laundry meditation hut' > there is also a method and the conventional results are there for anyone > to see... also all the paramattha dhammas no matter where and what I'm > doing. Actual holy life must be where it is understood, in the actual > cittas, with no choice in 'how to live'... not in my stories about it. I > told my boss I wouldn't be quitting after all. > > Anyway, that's my update on the job and I do still care what you, bunches > of black and white marks on a screen and my thoughts about them though you > may be, might think of me. Was also happy to read I wasn't the only one > who felt stupid trying to read between the lines of CMA ch. 8... thank you. > > Hope Rusty's doing well. Jozai falls down sometimes when he does that dog > shake thing and still wobbles more than he used to. I guess one of these > days, he'll stay paralyzed. Meanwhile, he's not too interested in my > ideas of how he should take it easy. > > peace, > connie 39024 From: Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi KK I would just add to what Ken O said -- As for rebirth consciousness from one birth to another, the Buddha compared it to fire being flung by wind and that the wind, at that moment, was the support of fire. TG 39025 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:29pm Subject: Re: 6 poems (really 9) Hi Connie / Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > Hi, Christine, > > [...] The Lady now wears the gold robes of a fully ordained Theravada > Bhikkhuni [...] > > But IS she one? I'd sure like to believe it, but as many times as I've > gone around and around with it, I just don't. I am going to butt in here with my two cents worth. It seems to me that if this person had been a man, there would have been no question as to the legitimacy of his claim of being a full fledged monk. I suspect that there are many monks, particularly in Asian countries where Buddhism is the state religion, who may be less deserving to wear the robes than this woman. Are we judging this person solely based on her gender? Are men any less susceptible to the psychological rationalizing that Connie has described? Metta, Rob M :-) 39026 From: naresh gurwani Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas Dear Nina I was reading the e-book provided on Dhamma about cita's & citasikas. All the experience is with citta , the good deed, bad deed and also the result of it. So we need to understand when the citta arises & falls away. And just observe, we cant do anything about it ? is it so ? And resultant cita are according to kamma which we have to undergo whether pleasnat & unpleasant. If unpleasant what we can do about it, there is no elimination possible ? Again coming to wordly matters, if we have a desire isit good or bad , as desires cant be destoyed , everybody has desires.Some have desires for Money, business, job, love etc. And as per my knowledge till date desires helps to move a person ahead or a motto in life which is i think very important, this desire also involves helping others. Pls quote on it. Naresh Gurwani --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Naresh, > op 27-11-2004 19:06 schreef naresh gurwani op > nar_gurwani@y...: > > > If all things were going without our awarness then > how > > are those people who are extremely sucessful in > their > > work & respective proffesional and they can really > > concentrate & achive things which are impossible > for > > any common person.And this also includes super > > spiritual power. > Nina: Successful in work, yes. Successful in worldly > matters. This does not > mean success in morality, in wisdom. The Buddha > taught another kind of > awareness and understanding that goes much deeper > and that can lead to less > vices and eventually to the eradication of all > defilements. 39027 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:03pm Subject: Heedfulness/appeal of suttas Hi Larry, Mike and all Larry :In my SN it is XLVIII,56 and B. Bodhi translates it as diligence. The Pali is appamada: appamáda: 'zeal', non-laxity, earnestness, diligence, is considered as the foundation of all progress. Just as all the footprints of living beings are surpassed by the footprint of the elephant, and the footprint of the elephant is considered as the mightiest amongst them, just so have all the meritorious qualities zeal as their foundation, and zeal is considered as the mightiest of these qualities'' (A. X, 15). Cf. the Chapter on Zeal (Appamáda Vagga) in Dhp., and the Buddha's last exhortation: "Transient are all formations. Strive zealously!" (appamádena sampádetha: D. 16) - In the commentaries, it is often explained as the presence (lit. 'non-absence') of mindfulness (satiyá avippavása). Phil: Thanks for the information, Larry and Mike. This appamada seems so similar to the virya (energy/persistence) that is one of the faculties that I would wonder why it isn't included in the same faculty. Or is there a difference between appamada and virya that is important enough for me to know about? This might be one of those questions to which Nina would wisely answer "does it matter to us?" - or then again it might not be! Something occured to me about the way the five faculties are presented in the Suttanta, at least in the collection of sutta passages (Wings to Freedom) through which I was reading about them. In some suttas, wisdom leads the others, in one sutta, concentration must arise before wisdom can arise, and in several others it is this appamada, which is not a faculty, that is chief to the five faculties. And of course, unless one has studied the suttas very thoroughly, in Pali, one's understanding of categories such as the five factors depends on translations and the selection of suttas by editors such as Thanissaro Bhikkhu. This reminded me of both the benefit and the danger of suttas. We are reminded of their great wealth, of the way the Buddha teaches to different people according to their accumulations. On the other hand, we can see why this great wealth can lead to factionalism and proliferation of views, because proponents of different ways of practice can find support for their views with a lot of unresolvable squabbling resulting. This might be the risk in relying exclusively on conventional language to develop one's understanding. Thus the appeal of Abhidhamma, for those who appreciate it. Consideration of paramattha dhammas always bring us back to the moment, back to deep Dhamma. I'm going to be receiving my copy of MN (Bhikkhu Bodhi) any day now. I have long awaited a chance to read this book, and I can predict that I am going to become absolutely enthralled by it, and not only by the deep Dhamma in it, but also by the language of the similes, of the descriptions of the characters, by the poetry. Thankfully, Bhikkhu Bodhi is keen on Abhidhamma, so I will not wander off the path too often. Metta, Phil 39028 From: Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga disturbed Hi Nina, Light is not a direct object of consciousness. If it were there would be no need for eye sensitive matter. It is eye sensitive matter which stretches from the eye to the heart base and manifests as a vibration that is the object of eye consciousness and eye door process. Larry 39029 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Dear KK, You wrote: ---------------- > I hope you don't mind my coming in here a little bit. I have been watching this some and I am getting confused by some of the things being said below. 1. the Buddha taught that Contact works like this and one can go through this and prove it for oneself: > ----------------- I vaguely remember where that was said, but I don't remember the context. Before we can prove any part of the Dhamma for ourselves, we have to arrive at the correct intellectual understanding (of what we are going to prove). Judging from the variety of contradictory interpretations (of phassa, e.g.), I'd say most of us at DSG are a long way from stage one. :-) -------------------------- KK: > You take one of the sense doors, say the eye. The "eye" meets color and form, and 'eye consciousness" arises; the meeting of the three is contact. This pattern run true with all of the sense doors. It is how "cognition" works. There are six separate sense doors and six sparate consciousnesses which can arise. > --------------------------- Although your description of the namas and rupas arising at the eye- door could be improved upon, I think it is generally correct. At any given moment, the world exists as a number of namas and rupas arising at one of the six doors. (The nama, phassa, is always among them.) ------------ KK: > 2. Only one phenomena can occur at a time. > ------------- Several phenomena occur at a time. I think you mean to say that only one can be *observed* at a time. That is true: each consciousness (citta) can only have one object (arammana). ----------------------------- KK: > 3. There is no "personality" (personal aspect) taught in Buddhism but rather Anatta ( Impersonal nature of reality ). So it folloows that here is no "individuality" involved in rebirth. The only thing that goes from one life into the next in Buddhism in "kamma". this is different than individuality. > ----------------------------- Hmmm! Always remember that nothing carries over from one lifetime to another (not even from one citta to another). All the namas and rupas that exist in one moment of consciousness (kamma is just one of them), condition the namas and rupas that arise in the next moment of consciousness. The one minor exception is the [sense object] rupa that is taken as the object of a process of cittas. It can last as long as seventeen cittas. ------------------- KK: > 4. If the consciousness you are speaking of a mind consciousness of voidness, then the voidness is, in and of itself, an object here. > -------------------- Yes, any characteristic (in this case anatta (voidness)) of an object nama or rupa can be directly observed by citta. The anatta characteristic only becomes apparent if the nama called panna (right understanding) is present at that moment. -------- KK: > there can be no consciousness arising without the formula in #1 occuring... > -------- Agreed. ----------- KK: > 5. Consider the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth. According to that doctrine, continuity of consciousness occurs between the death of one body (one bag of rupa) and the conception in another body (another bag of rupa). In that no two bags of rupa can occupy the same point in space at the same point in time, then how is rebirth occuring? ---------- A bag of rupa (in other words, a human body) is a concept. A concept has no ultimate existence - it is a mere idea. The human body is an idea of how certain rupas (rupa-kaya?) might appear in our conceptual world. The Buddhist doctrine of rebirth is all about the formula in #1. The cuti-citta is that formula at the moment we call death. The patisandhi-citta is that formula at the moment we call rebirth. When we express the Buddhist doctrine in conceptual forms, we talk about a human body-and-mind dying and another human body-and-mind being reborn. Because there is no sense consciousness intervening between cuti-citta and pataiandhi-citta, we Buddhists have no concept of a temporary life (in a badro-world) in between conceptual death and rebirth. (I hope that helps and I haven't totally missed the point of your question.) ----------- KK: > Could you please tell me where this doctrine appears within the suttas or the vinaya? ----------- Where doesn't it occur? Quite seriously, can you point to one teaching in the suttas or in the vinaya (or the in abhidhamma or the in commentaries) that does not describe a moment of consciousness (formula #1)? Ken H 39030 From: connieparker Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:50pm Subject: Re: 6 poems (really 9) Hi, RobM :) / Christine Smiling Rob: It seems to me that if this person had been a man, there would have been no question as to the legitimacy of his claim of being a full fledged monk. No great respecter of her own opinions and who knows how blind to how narrow and twisted her thoughts are Connie: Uh, it depends, among other things, on whether Mahayana monks made up part of his quorum and he wanted to call himself a Theravadan monk, but I don't want to debate the issues, either. I didn't bring it up to judge the nuns or point at anything other than my own self/thinking. Sorry if I sound argumentative. Me, myself and I and our twins have been lately, this being a favorite topic of ours, and only one of us has a sense of humour. I doubt any of us has much equanimity. I just tell myself they're New Tradition nuns and don't care that it's oxymoronic. Actually, I only use the feminine forms of the word to be social... in my head, there are only genderless monks. No denying I live in my own little worlds, mostly thought. No denying that I don't keep even 5 precepts perfectly. I laugh at myself because this house has a Murphy bed, something else I thought I always wanted, and only company ever sleeps in it because I like the floor... that's not keeping a precept or understanding anything, just preference. I might've learned to wear make-up if I hadn't gotten eyelash streaks on my glasses the first time I tried it. Lately, it's just a reminder of a certain kind of foulness when I'm trying to get it out of the motel's towels before I throw them in the machines. Some of the stuff on the sheets and how they smell are good for other reminders. My mind should be pretty clean from all the bleach and the cleaners with "do not breathe fumes" warnings on their labels. I couldn't help noticing that that revival article [http://www.buddhanet.net/nunorder.htm] used some pretty colorful words in talking about progressive democratic thinking (wherein the half-loaf half-way house dasa silas don't seem to count for much) -vs- reactionary, conservative, obscurantist, dogmatic, casteist and anti feminist priestcraft ideas from poor and backward cultures keeping the ignorant, illiterate and females from their human rights. Human rights being what when I say the only real rights are the 8 of the Path? And why, continuing to digress, separate the other kind into human and women's, I ask myself. Which half of the loaf do I get? I like the ends more than the middle, and my toast burnt in the land of the free and home of the brave where wealth isn't measured in morality and education isn't for understanding. I'm not sure Buddha was altogether egalitarian, whatever that means, either... is the article's 'samanatmata' a typo? The early nuns couldn't practice all the dhutangas (something else that's always been part of my great 'I wanna be a monk when I grow up' solitude fantasy)... not to mention (whatever that phrase means!) the 8 special, heavy rules the New Order (better? O, not if I abbreviate) nuns were advised not to speak out against too openly for awhile. I guess my point to myself is that if and when I ever am a 'holy one', I'll be the first to know it and it won't matter whether I'm ordained or not... there are enough quotes a person could pick out of the suttas to say ordination's not an issue... certainly not a matter of life and death unless one happens to be an arhat. And don't think this is my last word to myself on the subject. Much more fun, I guess, chasing words around my head than paying attention to what's really going on in my life. peace, connie 39031 From: Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi, Ken (and KK) - I'm just picking up on one line of your post, Ken, that caught my attention. In a message dated 11/29/04 7:47:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > At any > given moment, the world exists as a number of namas and rupas > arising at one of the six doors. ========================= What a mind-picture this creates for me: A large sphere with a tiny aperture labelled "object" at one point on the surface. Within, wildly churning, tumbling, and careening off the interior sphere surface are trillions of very small blue pellets and red pellets (like the blue and red states in the recent U.S. election ;-), the red pellets being namas and the blue pellets being rupas, and, from time to time, a pellet pops out of the object aperture! The aperture lights up brightly each time a pellet pops out with one of six alternative colors: blue and five different shades of red, the color depending on the type of pellet. ;-)) Next time someone asks me what "life is all about", I shall tell him "It is a huge pellet-sphere, my friend, a huge pellet-sphere!" :-) With discrete but multitudinous metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39032 From: Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi again, Ken (and KK) - In a message dated 11/29/04 8:40:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > The > aperture lights up brightly each time a pellet pops out with one of six > alternative colors: blue and five different shades of red, the color > depending on the > type of pellet. ;-)) > ========================== I was off with my numbers! This should read as follows: _____________________ The aperture lights up brightly each time a pellet pops out with one of five alternative colors: blue and four different shades of red, the color depending on the type of pellet. ;-)) ------------------------------------- With colorful metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39033 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:00pm Subject: Please help me to find sutta with: "Yaya ca bhikkhave, avijjaya nivutassa balassa Yaya ca tanhaya samyuttassa ayam kayo samudagato" Bhikkhus, this body of the fool comes into existence being obstructed by ignorance, and being associated with craving. "Avijjupaladdhiya khandhe upalabbhati." If the ignorance is obtained, then the body is obtained. Could someone help me to find this suta please? metta, Agrios 39034 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James and Nina - =========================== > I know this fine point isn't all that important, but here are my > thoughts on it: First of all, I think that sati is actually the remembering to be > attentive to whatever is happening, remembering to maintain clarity. I also > think that when one *does* remain attentive, and a mindstate *is* clear, the > content of that state is not only very clear right then and there but also > "continues" as a fresh memory that too is very clear, only slightly degraded, and > that sharp, fresh memory can serve as basis for wise review. This is how I think > about the matter, based on my own fevered thoughts and not on Dhamma reading. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Yes, I agree. I believe that you are speaking of sensory memory which is of an extremely short duration: "The sensory information store has unlimited capacity, and reacts to both visual and auditory information. However, the duration of information in sensory memory is extremely brief, perhaps only 300 miliseconds, and is subject to rapid decay." http://coe.sdsu.edu/eet/Articles/stmemory/start.htm To what capacity sensory memory, short term memory, and long term memory serve in the practice of mindfulness I am not sure. Perhaps it is a subject worthy of more study? Metta, James 39035 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Ken (and KK) - > > In a message dated 11/29/04 8:40:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > > > The > > aperture lights up brightly each time a pellet pops out with one of six > > alternative colors: blue and five different shades of red, the color > > depending on the > > type of pellet. ;-)) > > > ========================== > I was off with my numbers! This should read as follows: > _____________________ > The aperture lights up brightly each time a pellet pops out with one > of five > alternative colors: blue and four different shades of red, the color > depending on the > type of pellet. ;-)) > ------------------------------------- > > With colorful metta, > Howard Friend Howard, Gosh, it looks like my gumball analogy has gotten out of control! ;- )) Metta, James 39036 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 6 poems (really 9) Dear Connie and Christine, Connie, I liked all of your mail, well said. I just took off this line, because I thought of Rusty but I was afraid to ask Christine. I missed some mails since I was away longer. Christine, how was Rusty when you returned? Nina. op 29-11-2004 18:02 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > Hope Rusty's doing well. 39037 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What means 'no control' ? Dear Joop, op 29-11-2004 09:40 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > but why this dispositions not fall away: not in a split > second, not in some years and not in aeons? N: This is frightening, isn't it? They are dormant in each citta, they do not arise with the akusala citta, and thus we cannot say they fall away. They condition the arising of akusala citta. Only lokuttara magga-citta eradicates them, stage by stage. But, also before magga-citta, by developing understanding of the eightfold Path, these latent tendencies wear away. J: And, as explained to Nina yesterday, my main question still is: it > still also the case for animals ? N: Sure, they also condition akusala citta for animals. As Ken O explained, animals do not have the capacity to develop understanding. Take the Bodhisatta's horse Kanthaka who was so sad to have to return to the palace. But he was reborn a deva, and he could then listen to the Dhamma. J: I think it is. That does interest me because I'm not anthropocentric. N: I also feel a lot for animals. Nina. 39038 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dying-consciousness. Dear Ken O, I like all your mails. I just have one remark: kamma that produced our rebirth-consciousness in this life also conditioned the last javana cittas before the dying-consciousness of our previous life. The dying-consciousness of that previous life 9the last moment) was conditioned by the same kamma that produced the rebirth-consciousness of that previous life. Nina. op 29-11-2004 17:56 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > During the rebirth > citta, kamma is the one that produces the rupa for that life and it > also kamma that determines the dying citta of that previous life. 39039 From: Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Please help me to find sutta with: Hi Agrios, It might be this one. The translation is a little different and in a note to the first quote B. Bodhi gives some Pali that is slightly different: evam aya.m kaayo samudaagato (this body has thereby originted). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-019.html Larry ------------------------- "Yaya ca bhikkhave, avijjaya nivutassa balassa Yaya ca tanhaya samyuttassa ayam kayo samudagato" Bhikkhus, this body of the fool comes into existence being obstructed by ignorance, and being associated with craving. "Avijjupaladdhiya khandhe upalabbhati." If the ignorance is obtained, then the body is obtained. Could someone help me to find this suta please? metta, Agrios 39040 From: Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi, James - In a message dated 11/29/04 11:49:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Howard, > > Gosh, it looks like my gumball analogy has gotten out of control! ;-)) > > Metta, James > ======================= Hey, you're right! I didn't even think of that! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39041 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi Howard, This pellet sphere is an interesting project, but it needs a lot of work. I don't know about 'one blue and four shades of red.' Your original idea of one blue and five (one for each sense door) reds was better, I think. But then you have to remember that there are three rupas that are capable of arising at the body-door, so that makes seven reds by my reckoning. And then there are fifty-four namas that can arise at the mind door. And there are the doors themselves and other namas and rupas that only arise at the mind door. And what about concepts? I would make them black, and you would make them the fifty-fifth shade of red, I think. (We are never going to agree on that one.) Perhaps I'm taking it all too seriously, but there are problems everywhere I look. The whole project should be scrapped before it gets out of hand! :-) Ken H 39042 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:46pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 63 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (j) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** Saññå accompanies cittas which arise in a process and it also accompanies cittas which do not arise in a process, namely the paìisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness), the bhavanga-citta (lifecontinuum) and the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness). When we are sound asleep and not dreaming there are bhavanga-cittas and also in between the different processes of cittas there are bhavangacittas. The object of the paìisandhi-citta, the bhavanga-citta and the cuti-citta is the same as the object experienced by the javanacittas which arose shortly before the cuti-citta of the previous life1. ‘We’, or rather the cittas which are thinking at this moment, do not know what that object is. However every time the bhavangacitta arises in between the processes of cittas it experiences that object and the saññå which accompanies the bhavanga-citta remembers that object. Saññå never arises alone, it has to accompany citta and other cetasikas and it is conditioned by them. Saññå is saòkhåra dhamma, conditioned dhamma. Saññå arises with the citta and then falls away with the citta. Saññå is a khandha, it is one among the five khandhas. We cling to saññå, we take it for self. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 39043 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:21pm Subject: Re: Please help me to find sutta with: Dear Agrios, Larry and all How are you? Please check "9.Baalapa.n.dita Suttam", Section 19, Nidaana Samyutta, Samyuttanikaayo. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: "Yaya ca bhikkhave, avijjaya nivutassa balassa Yaya ca tanhaya samyuttassa ayam kayo samudagato" Bhikkhus, this body of the fool comes into existence being obstructed by ignorance, and being associated with craving. "Avijjupaladdhiya khandhe upalabbhati." If the ignorance is obtained, then the body is obtained. Could someone help me to find this suta please? metta, Agrios 39044 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:39pm Subject: 'The Gift of Dhamma....." Dear Antony, Rather than thank you off-list, I’d like others to have the opportunity to rejoice in your dana. ‘Great Disciples of the Buddha’ by Nyanaponika Thera And Hellmuth Hecker arrived today in excellent condition and I’m very grateful for it. Although I have some of the text in old Wheel copies, it’s wonderful to have the hard copy with the compilation of these gems and more. Well worth the wait;-). After joyfully opening the parcel and appreciating your kindness, I let the text fall open and it did so in the middle of the text at the introduction by B.Bodhi to Mahaakaccaana, the Master of Doctrinal Exposition on p.213. As I particularly like this introduction and account, let me quote from it, first with a quote from a little later in the text: ... "Monks, those monks who, like my son Maha Kaccana, guard the doors of the senses, are beloved both among gods and humans." He then pronounced the following stanza of the Dhammapada (v.94): "Even the gods hold him dear, Whose senses are subdued Like horses trained well by a charioteer, Whose pride is destroyed, And who is free from corruptions." That the Venerable Maha Kaccana was actually one who devoted much attention to the mastery of the sense faculties is borne out by his discourses, which (as we shall see below) often emphasize the need for guarding "the doors of the senses." ***** >1. Introduction As a skilled and versatile teacher with mastery over pedagogic technique, the Buddha adopted different styles of presentation to communicate the Dhamma to his disciples. Often he would explain a teaching in detail (vittharena). Having introduced his topic with a short statement, technically called the uddesa or synopsis, he would then embark on the detailed exposition, the niddesa, also called the analysis, the vibhanga. In this stage of the discourse he would break the subject introduced by the synopsis down into its component strands, define each strand in turn, and draw out its implications, sometimes attaching a simile to illustrate the message of the discourse. Finally, he would restate the introductory declaration as a conclusion (niggamana), now supported by the entire weight of the foregoing analysis. On other occasions, however, the Buddha would not teach in detail. Instead, he would present the Dhamma briefly (sankhittena), offering only a short, sometimes even cryptic, statement charged with a profound but highly concentrated meaning. The Buddha did not teach the Doctrine in this way in order to conceal an esoteric message or because he delighted in obscurantism. He used this technique because it sometimes proved a more effective means of shaking and transforming the minds of his auditors than would have been possible by a full elaboration. Although direct explanation of the meaning might have transmitted information more quickly, such a method might not have produced the lasting and edifying effect the Dhamma is intended to instil. But by requiring the disciples to reflect upon the meaning and to tease it out by sustained inquiry, as well as by mutual discussion, the Buddha ensured that when the disciples did come to understand his utterance, its message would penetrate deep into the silent recesses of the mind. While such brief teachings would escape the understanding of the great majority of the monks, the mature disciples with sharp faculties of wisdom could readily fathom their meaning. Under such circumstances the ordinary monks, reluctant to trouble their Master with requests for explanation, would turn for clarification to the senior disciples whose comprehension of the Dhamma had already been confirmed by the Blessed One. So important did this function become in the early Buddhist Sangha that the Buddha himself established, in the ranks of his most eminent disciples, a separate category called "the foremost of those who analyze in detail the meaning of what was stated (by me) in brief" (aggam sankhittena bhasitassa vittharena attham vibhajantanam). The bhikkhu who was assigned to this position by the Master was the Venerable Maha Kaccana -- Kaccana the Great, so called to distinguish him from others who bore the common brahmanical clan name of Kaccayana (shortened to Kaccana). ***** S: And here we have the explanation about how many of the ancient commentaries are attributed to the great disciples such as Maha Kaccna, (including both the Petakopadesa and the Nettippakarana*) in addition to many suttas including DSG favourites, the Bhaddekeratta Sutta (1)and the Madhupindika Sutta. Let me finish with popular quotes that can never be quoted enough from these suttas: (1)"Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes, For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably.” (2)"Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a person with respect to past, future, and present forms cognizable through the eye." Metta, Sarah * “The Netti colophon states further that it was approved by the Blessed One and recited at the original Buddhist council*, though of course this is controversial here! ======= 39045 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:58pm Subject: Re: 'The Gift of Dhamma....." Dear Antony, Anumodana for your generous intention! This resulted in your providing the "Great Disciples of the Buddha' to Sarah and Jon. It was a lovely kind gesture. :-) I have this book myself and I know they will find it a valuable resource as well as an enjoyable read. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Antony, > > Rather than thank you off-list, I'd like others to have the opportunity to > rejoice in your dana. `Great Disciples of the Buddha' by Nyanaponika Thera > And Hellmuth Hecker arrived today in excellent condition and I'm very > grateful for it. Although I have some of the text in old Wheel copies, > it's wonderful to have the hard copy with the compilation of these gems > and more. Well worth the wait;-). > > After joyfully opening the parcel and appreciating your kindness, I let > the text fall open and it did so in the middle of the text at the > introduction by B.Bodhi to Mahaakaccaana, the Master of Doctrinal > Exposition on p.213. 39046 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga disturbed Hi Larry, op 30-11-2004 01:22 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Light is not a direct object of consciousness. N: It depends. We can call that which is visible: colour, light or visible object. It is just that what appears through eyesense. L: If it were there would be > no need for eye sensitive matter. It is eye sensitive matter which > stretches from the eye to the heart base and manifests as a vibration > that is the object of eye consciousness and eye door process. N: The object of eye consciousness and eye door process is just visible object, nothing else, not a vibration. Defining and reasoning do not help much. You are seeing now. What? Just what is visible. You do not see eyesense at all. You do not see a vibration. The T.A. text is difficult to read and I do not like very much the word vibration since this can cause misunderstandings. I try my own wording. This is the text: My wording: visible object impinges on the eyesense, but there is not yet the experience of visible object by process cittas. The eyesense is arising in a group of rupas, the four great elements and other rupas. Groups of rupa of which the body consists are arising and falling away but they are connected. That is why the impact of visible object on the eyesense affects somehow the rupa which is heartbase and which is the support of the bhavanga-citta. The text uses the word vibration to indicate a connection between eyesense and heartbase. And then the stream of bhavanga-cittas is interrupted so that a process can begin. I would not use the word stretch out. I find this whole passage too difficult for me and it does not help me to understand the sense-cognitions appearing now. The bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away extremely fast and so we cannot know much about them. Nina. 39047 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Dear friend James and Howard, op 29-11-2004 05:49 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: quotes: wise attention cannot arise at the same time as the angry mind, > how could >> they occur together. But wise attention can arise just after anger > has >> fallen away. > Huh? Mindfulness of the present moment includes mindfulness of past > moments? Then what is the whole point of the slogan "Knowing the > dhammas appearing now"? (which, even though I agree with it in > principal, rubs me the wrong way because of the way it is used to > avoid formal practice). N: Yes, I know. I understand what you think. It must seem like a slogan, and I shall try again to say a few things. However, it is not so understandable when we define, reason about it, talk about the theory. I use the word: what appears now, not: what arises now. Why appear? A reality or dhamnma like anger appears to a moment of consciousness with wise attention. Anger has fallen away, it cannot know itself, but wise attention arises shortly afterwards. The same for hearing: hearing cannot know itself, it can only be known by another consciousness, arising after it has fallen away. Howard wrote to you: Yes, we can define sati as remembering what is wholesome, not to waste opportunities for it. There are different levels of this kind of memory, namely of dana, of sila, of samatha and of vipassana. This wholesome memory is different from the kind of memory arising with each citta. It is different from remembering that this is a tree, that is a desk. J: It seems to me that you are just talking > about plain mindfulness: The Four Foundations of Mindfulness. N: As I see it, The Four Foundations of Mindfulness contain all that is real and that the Buddha taught us to understand. But we have to learn step by step. Awareness is coarse at first, it cannot be refined. The Buddha said: seeing is impermanent. First we have to know the characteristic of seeing. It is different from thinking, different from hearing. Later on we can know its falling away. It can be done, if it were impossible, the Buddha would not tell us to realize the momentary impermanence of dhammas. Nina. 39048 From: antony272b2 Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:31am Subject: Re: 'The Gift of Dhamma....." Dear Sarah, One point I would like to add that is not in the book: "As the house was burning, Samavati and her maids-of-honour, numbering five hundred, kept on meditating. Thus, some of them attained Sakadagami Fruition, and the rest attained Anagami Fruition." http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/dhp/a.htm#Samavati The main chapters that are not available as wheels at accesstoinsight are the life of Ananda and the life of Anuruddha. May you be well and happy, Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Antony, > > Rather than thank you off-list, I'd like others to have the opportunity to > rejoice in your dana. `Great Disciples of the Buddha' by Nyanaponika Thera > And Hellmuth Hecker arrived today in excellent condition and I'm very > grateful for it. Although I have some of the text in old Wheel copies, > it's wonderful to have the hard copy with the compilation of these gems > and more. Well worth the wait;-). > 39049 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:57am Subject: ."Feeling is just feeling" Dear Connie, Chris, Nina & All, We had a short discussion in Sikkhim about loneliness, anatta and being alone. I told Connie I'd type it out as I found it helpful. (Thanks to Chris and Nina for the good questions raised here). This followed earlier discussions about 'Engaged Buddhism', compassion and being proactive. Chris mentioned that anatta can seem very lonely and also rightly pointed out that we all like to be with others at times. ..... Khun Sujin: "Someone can be alone 'outside' and another could have so much piti (joy) with the understanding of realities by knowing that there's no self. Feeling is just feeling". ..... Nina: "It's so difficult, we cling so much to feeling."Feeling is just feeling". ..... Khun Sujin: "That's why the Buddha pointed out that attachment is to be eradicated or eliminated gradually until there is none left when one has become an arahant." .... Chris: "Just go slowly, not try to click a switch..." .... Khun Sujin: "Y-e-s. As one is sitting there is visible object, there is sound and it reminds oneself there is no understanding of all these realities yet. Knowing that, there's no time to feel lonely because panna and sati is there working their functions, developing understanding." Nina: "But when they don't arise...." Khun Sujin: "Lobha comes as your master, the Teacher." ***** S: I particularly appreciated the reminder that there's "no time to feel lonely" when there's sati and panna. No concern about oneself at these moments. Realities are just known for what they are. And then, lobha, the teacher comes again;-). Metta, Sarah ======= 39050 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please help me to find sutta with: Dear Suan,Nina & Azita, Seeing your name, Suan, reminded me that I meant to thank you for your explanations in post #38509 which I understand. I also appreciated your post #38200 on Buddhaghosa. Nina, thank you also for helping with quotes in the discussion I was having with Htoo. I planned to continue the thread and may if I find some time;-). Your post on bhavanga cittas and the Vism were also very good. There was one extract in the Vism or Tika which perfectly answered a question Azita raised in Jetavana about how the bhavanga cittas come to be disturbed by the visible object or sense object before there is any experience of it (which didn't get an answer).....Ah, just found it: "Text Tiika: but how does there come to be disturbance (movement) of the life-continuum that has a different support? Because it is connected with it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on the surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly sitting on another grain of sugar moves' (Pm. 478)." And without bhavanga cittas in between the sense and mind door experiences, there could be no sense door or mind door experiences. There have to be a continuity of cittas experiencing their objects. it doesn't matter what we call them, but it helps to undestand that there is phassa (contact) arising with every single citta, even whilst in deep sleep and that visible object doesn't just appear to a consciousness without any preceding cittas preparing the way, so to speak. 'But what appears now?' K.Sujin would say. Does phassa or bhavanga citta appear? If not, what does appear? Metta, Sarah ========= 39051 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi KenO, (Suravira & All), --- Ken O wrote: > k: Sorry boss, forget about the 5fold part. You are right > supramundane is 8fold :). But satipatthana is for both supramundane > and mundane as those who are not yet Arahant, still have to practise > that. :) ... S: It's true about the practice. However, on a technical detail, I'm not sure that we can refer to supramundane lokuttara cittas as satipatthana. Vipassana, yes. .... > > k: Thanks for the clarification. I was trying to say that Nobles > One that are not Arahants, still have to have to do pariyati and > patipatti. I still have to say satipatthana is also supramundane as > lokuttara cittas are the emboidement of the perfection of the 8fold. ... S: We agree on all the important points. Pariyatti and patipatti have to continue until arahantship. I believe satipatthana refers to the mundane path. I think we discussed this before with regard to the Satipatthana Sutta, but I don't have any quote handy. I'll also be glad to be corrected if I'm wrong here.... On another note, I think others are discussing time and I liked a passage you quote from the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller) a lot. If there is clear understanding of the presently arising realities, (or present reality appearing to be accurate),and its conditioned nature, then the three periods of time are understood - it was that way in the past and it will be that way in the future, merely conditioned elements, not under the control of any self. On a tape I listened to, someone asked how the development of understanding and awareness could be known. The answer: by understanding the present reality. (Suravira, in English, K.Sujin uses the word 'reality' A LOT as you'll hear in the recordings presently being uploaded!) Ken O: >Delusion para 1171 - << then as he lays of the material aggregate, the immaterial aggregate become evident to him though the medium of the sense bases and doors. The material and immaterial, being laid hold of thus, are the pentad of aggregates, the pentad of aggregates is te twelve sense bases; the twelve sens bases become the 18 elements and so by mean of the aggregates, bases and elements, by making them into two parts like one who split a twin palm, he defines material-immateriality. After inquiring 'this mentality - materiality is not produced without causes, without conditions; it is produced with causes, with conditions. But what is its caused; what is its conditions?' he defines its condition thus: 'With ignorance as condition, craving as condition, kamma as condition, nutriment as condition' and he removes doubt about the three periods of time [of time thus]: 'In the past also they are conditions and states conditionaly arisen and in the future, and now also, they are conditions and states conditionally arisen. Beyond that there is no being or person. It is only a mere heap of formations. But this insight which discerns the formations is called "fulled understanding of the known" ***** Metta, Sarah ======== 39052 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] Contact Hi Evan, Welcome to DSG and I'm glad to see you jumping in the deep end here: --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > I don't understand where in the sutta quotes below contact is described > as a mental phenomenon. From what I understand contact is the process > whereby a sense base and a sense object come together resulting in the > arising of consciousness. <...> L:> The Visuddhimagga refers to the following sutta in its description of > contact. This sutta metaphorically portrays contact as a mental > phenomenon similar to but distinct from consciousness. > > Here are a couple of snips: > "And how is the nutriment of contact to be regarded? Suppose a flayed > cow were to stand leaning against a wall. <...> I don't know if it helps, but under nutriment condition (aahaara paccaya), there are four kinds of nutriment, one physical and three mental: a) physical nutriment b) contact (phassa cetasika) c) volition (cetana cetasika) d) consciousness (vinnana or citta) Nina writes about them in more detail in her book 'Conditions' which can be found on here: http://www.zolag.co.uk/, Under contact as a kind of nutriment condition, she writes: ..... >As to the mental nutriment which is contact, phassa, this is a cetasika which contacts the object so that citta and the accompanying cetasikas can experience it*. Without contact citta and cetasikas could not experience any object, thus, contact supports them, it is a mental nutriment for them. It accompanies each citta and it conditions citta and the accompanying cetasikas by way of åhåra-paccaya, nutriment condition. It also conditions rúpa produced by citta and cetasikas by way of nutriment-condition. When there is bodily painful feeling we know that there is contact, otherwise there could not be the experience of an unpleasant object. This experience does not last. When hearing arises we know that there is another kind of contact; it contacts sound so that hearing can experience it. When there is mindfulness of realities as they appear one at a time, we can understand that there are different contacts all the time and that the experiences of the different objects do not last.< * Phassa is nama, it is not physical contact. ***** Evan, please tell us where you live or anything more about your interest or background with regard to your interest in the Dhamma (if you feel inclined to do so!). Also, you may like to look at some of the older posts on phassa kept aside under 'phassa' in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ======= 39053 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 6 poems (really 9) Hi Rob M (Chris & Connie), --- robmoult wrote: CF:> > [...] The Lady now wears the gold robes of a fully ordained > Theravada > > Bhikkhuni [...] > > Connie:> > But IS she one? I'd sure like to believe it, but as many times as > I've > > gone around and around with it, I just don't. > RM:> I am going to butt in here with my two cents worth. > > It seems to me that if this person had been a man, there would have > been no question as to the legitimacy of his claim of being a full > fledged monk. ..... S:I'm butting in too. Wouldnt't that depend in either case on whether the full ordination procedures were carried out appropriately and whether the person intended to fully comply with all the Patimokkha rules as laid out by the Buddha in the Vinaya? I think the questions or 'closed minds' can be with many different motives, but I think there is room for legitimate concern and compassion for the consequences which will follow any serious breaches of these procedures and rules by those in robes. For example, the extremely large number of bhikkhus at Vesali who attempted to introduce seemingly minor adaptations to the Vinaya were said to have caused a schism in the order and the immediate result of splitting the Sangha is to be born without fail in one’s next life in hell. I don't know enough about the Vinaya to know what constitutes a schism and only one has really understood the Dhamma will really appreciate the Patimokkha sila in full, but just as we would not encourage a child to kill or steal, I would not encourage anyone to become a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni without a proper appreciation of the sila involved no matter how closed minded or in how small a minority I might appear. Kamma and its consequences is far more powerful than any ideas we may have about equal rights and opportunities, don't you think? From 'Banner of the Arahants' by Bhikkhu Khantipalo. 'Life as a Buddhist monk.' From Abhidhamma.org: "Thus have I heard. At one time the Exalted One was staying near Sávatthi at the Jeta Grove, Anáthapindika’s monastery. Then venerable Upáli approached the Exalted One, bowed down to him and then sat down nearby. Sitting there he asked the Exalted One, "Lord, what are the reasons why the rule of training was laid down for the disciples of the Tathágata and the Pátimokkha appointed?“ "For ten reasons, Upáli, the rule of training was laid down and the Pátimokkha appointed: 1. For the good establishment of the Sangha. (Without Vinaya the Sangha could not last long). 2. For the comfort of the Sangha. (So that Bhikkhus may have few obstacles and live peacefully). 3. For the riddance of obstinate men (who would cause trouble in the Sangha). 4. For the happy abiding of well-behaved Bhikkhus. (Pure precepts make for happiness here and now). 5. For guarding against troubles (ásava) in this present life (Since much trouble is avoided by one with good moral conduct). 6. For guarding against troubles liable to arise in a future life (They may not arise for the well-practised person). 7. For pleasing those not yet pleased. (People who do not yet know Dhamma are pleased by a Bhikkhu’s good conduct). 8. For the increase of those who are pleased. (Those who know Dhamma already are pleased to see it practised). 9. For the establishment of True Dhamma. (The Dhamma lasts long when Vinaya is well practised by Bhikkhus). 10. For the benefit of Vinaya. (So that Vinaya, ‘the leading out’, can benefit many beings, out of dukkha, towards Nibbána). These, Upáli, are the ten reasons why the rule of training was laid down and the Pátimokkha appointed for the disciples of the Tathágata“. Thus spoke the Lord. Delighted, venerable Upáli rejoiced in the Exalted One’s words." (Numerical Collection, Book of the Tens, Discourse 31). ***** RM:> I suspect that there are many monks, particularly in Asian countries > where Buddhism is the state religion, who may be less deserving to > wear the robes than this woman. > > Are we judging this person solely based on her gender? > > Are men any less susceptible to the psychological rationalizing that > Connie has described? .... S: It's true that we're all experts at rationalizing. However, if a man were considering or wishing to ordain as perhaps Connie is, wouldn't it be a kindness to encourage him to consider carefully as well, in respect to both initial ordination procedures and whether he's really suited to follow all the Patimokkha rules, easily and naturally? We had a good friend who disrobed after many vassa when he found out the ordination ceremony he had followed in Thailand had not been conducted correctly according to the details prescribed. As we all know, the ordination for bhikkhunis is very controversial in terms of validity. The rules for bhikkhunis are more numerous than those for the bhikkhus. There are 311 rules, I believe as laid down by the Buddha. They are given in detail in the first two books of the Vinaya Pitaka, with the account of how each was laid down, followed by the Buddha’s words which end with: "This offence does not lead to rousing of faith in those who are not convinced of the Teaching, nor to increase of faith in those who are convinced." Rob, any further comments? Metta, Sarah p.s witty-as-usual and bleached-out Connie, just read your second post- they need to be read out loud for full appreciation;-). Like you stress, our concerns on issues like this so often have more to do with ourselves than for women or bhikkhunis in general. I think this was the conclusion Jon and Chris reached at the end of a long chat on the same topic over a breakfast in Bangkok once, but Chris, Jon or Azita, pls remind me if it wasn't. ============= 39054 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah Maybe in a later date, I should discuss the technical level of satipatthana with you. I think it is a good topic to discuss. I think it is good time to take a real detail technical reading. The other time when Nina translate the commentary of the breathing sutta, I did not take a good look at it. Maybe we will have a relook at it, this time with inputs from the various Abhidhamma and sutta texts. Yes reality in the immediate moment is important yet I see many people trying to chase it or catch up with it or thinking the practise should be otherwise. When reality at the moment is attented wisely, there is development, there is abandoment. When you wrote the text <> That is I called an excellent statment. Dont try to chase the moments, live in reality of it :). Ken O 39055 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) Hi Hugo Definitely study for the sake of study is for the academics and not for practitioner. And what is concentration? Is concentration just look at one kasina or it is something more interesting to do :). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." Then look at this sutta what still the mind http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-055.html "If a monk abandons passion for the property of form ... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling ... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception ... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications ... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it stands still. Owing to its stillness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' So abandons the passon first, stillness will surely arise without fail :). If concentration is the main factor in acquiring wisdom, Buddha would have attained enlightment when he learned the attainment of the arupas jhanas from his past two teachers (See MN 26). Ken O 39056 From: Larry Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:32am Subject: Sanna/Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Larry > > Sanna dont hide impermanence neither does memory in concept terms. > It is moha > > Ken O Hi Ken, I've been thinking about your objection and this is what I have come up with. Avijja is the ignorance of not knowing and the first link in dependent arising. This ignorance IS sanna. Sanna always makes a mistake, is always misknowledge, and is what perceives permanence. Moha is the ignorance of doubt. I have to say, with some considerable trepidation, the Buddha is simply wrong when he says dependent on feeling craving arises. He should have said dependent on perception craving arises. More generally we could say dependent on perception lobha, dosa, AND moha arise. In other words, dependent on perception accumulations and latent tendencies condition the arising of craving. You can see this for yourself in your own experience. Feeling is irrelevant. For the most part, the feeling that we feel is the feeling that accompanies the root cittas. You won't find the whole of this idea in sutta or abhidhamma, but the seeds of it come from Nina and her exposition on accumulations and latent tendencies. So all praise and misguided blame should go to Nina. Larry 39057 From: Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/30/04 12:50:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > This pellet sphere is an interesting project, but it needs a lot of > work. I don't know about 'one blue and four shades of red.' Your > original idea of one blue and five (one for each sense door) reds > was better, I think. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, here's the problem with the total of 6 ( = 1 + 5 ) types of dhamma, the types being the mind-door type (say a red pellet), and the five physical sense-door types (say blue pellets): As far as the dhammas are concerned, each pellet popping through the aperture causing blue to light up, then needs to be recycled and pop through yet again, with the aperture lighting up red! ;-) So, I then switched to a new construction, with pellets colored and aperture lighting up according to khandha: The blue pellets are rupas, the red pellets are namas of one of four types, vedana, sa~n~na, sankhara, and vi~n~nana, and the aperture lights up accordingly - blue light for a blue pellet, i.e., rupa object, whether through physical sense-door or mind-door), and four different red lights, one for each type of red pellet, i.e., each type of nama object. Since this is a "wordling model", there is no nibbana pellet, and no corresponding red light. ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ > But then you have to remember that there are > three rupas that are capable of arising at the body-door, so that > makes seven reds by my reckoning. And then there are fifty-four > namas that can arise at the mind door. And there are the doors > themselves and other namas and rupas that only arise at the mind > door. And what about concepts? I would make them black, and you > would make them the fifty-fifth shade of red, I think. (We are never > going to agree on that one.) > > Perhaps I'm taking it all too seriously, but there are problems > everywhere I look. The whole project should be scrapped before it > gets out of hand! > ------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly not!! This is far too important to let go of! Why, so much has been invested in the project already!! I think, taking a lead from every govermental agency in the world, that having squandered (er, I mean "devoted") so much of our resources to this project already, we must now force everyone to "do their part" in this essential work, and commandeer additional resources from all!! -------------------------------------- > > :-) > Ken H > > ========================= With "modest proposal" metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39058 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 142 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 54 kamavacara cittas or 54 sensuous consciousness, 24 cittas are called sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. They are 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas, and 8 mahakiriya cittas. Mahakiriya cittas are cittas of arahats and these cittas are far from us. There are 8 mahavipaka cittas. Again these 8 vipaka cittas are the cittas of our patisandhi or bhavanga and they sound like unconscious mind of us. So 8 mahakusala cittas are the most apparent to us and easily understandable. These cittas are the moment that we are performing wholesome actions while doing bodily or verbally or mentally. We have been discussing at molecular level aft?r we have discussed at atomic level of Dhamma. At molecular level, we have dealt with 40 lokuttara cittas and 27 mahaggata cittas. Now we will see what 8 mahakusala cittas are. 8 mahakusala cittas are dhamma molecules made up of dhamma atoms called citta and 38 cetasikas. This is especially right for the first pair of mahakusala cittas. They are 1. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika mekam 2. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika mekam Here 'mekam' refers to 'ekam' and this means 'one'. This is a Pali rule. So these 2 mean 1. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 2. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta Somanassa is made up of 'so' meaning 'good' 'pleasurable' 'right' and mana means 'mind' 'heart' 'consciousness' and assa just shows possession. So overall 'somanassa' means 'mental joy' or similar meaning. Saha means 'at the same time' 'concurrently' 'in parallel with' and gata means 'to go'. So somanassa saha gatam means ''along with mental joy''. Nana means 'pannindriya cetasika' 'panna' 'wisdom' 'knowledge'. Sampayutta is made up of 'sam' which means 'well' 'thoroughly' and and 'yutta' which means 'mix'. Sampayutta means 'mixed' as if in case of milk and water. So the above citta is 'along with mental joy' and inseparably mixed with wisdom or panna. And asankharika means 'without special preparation'. Sankharika means 'being prepared' 'being prompted' 'being stimulated'. So asankharika means 'without any prompt'. Over all, this first kamavacara citta has the meaning.. ' a mental state associated with mental joy the whole of which is inseparably mixed with wisdom or panna and no one or nothing has stimulated or prompted'. This has actually been explained in the citta portion. But here it is re-explained again to explain why 38 cetasikas accompany this citta. One atom is citta which is totally pure and luminous. Other atoms are 38 cetasikas in this first kamavacara citta. They are 1. 7 universal cetasikas 1.phassa/contact, 2.vedana/feeling, 3.cetana/volition, 4.sanna/perception, 5.ekaggata/one-pointedness, 6.jivitindriya/mental life, 7.manasikara/attention 2. 6 particular cetasikas or pakinnaka cetasikas 1.vitakka/initial application, 2.vicara/sustained application 3.piti/joy, 4. viriya/effort, 5.chanda/wish, 6.adhimokkha/decision Here as all cittas are accompanied by 7 cetasikas, there is no comment on this. In kusala citta, if there is somanassa then piti has to arise and therefore all 6 particular cetasikas have to arise. 3. 25 sobhana cetasikas or beautiful cetasikas 2 teams of forces of the king citta that is in total 19 universal cetasikas of sobhana cittas, 3 virati cetasikas, 2 appamanna cetasikas and pannindriya cetasika (19+3+2+1= 25 sobhana cetasikas) As this citta is somanassa there is piti. As it is nana sampayutta, there is pannindriya cetasika. So all in all 7+6+25= 38 cetasikas can arise with this 1st kama sobhana citta. This shows maximal possible cetasikas. As there are isotopes in chemistry, there are 1st mahakusala cittas with different combinations of cetasikas. All 38 cetasikas never arise in full 38. Because karuna and mudita cetasikas never arise together as their objects are totally different. So if someone is having karuna on someone, this mahakusala citta has 37 cetasikas. Mudita is excluded. If mudita, karuna is excluded and there will be 37 cetasikas. If beings do not do any of karuna or mudita, then both cetasikas do not arise and there will be only 36 cetasikas. 2 cetasikas karuna and mudita are also known as aniyata yogi cetasikas. This means they do not always arise. Again, when beings are not practising kayaducarita, or vaci-ducarita, or dujiva, then they are said to be practising samma-kammanta or samma-vaca or samma-ajiva respectively. Again these 3 do not arise concurrently in kamavacara cittas. So from 36 cetasikas, 2 has to be removed as they are not being practised. These 3 are also aniyata yogi cetasikas. Again these 3 are mutually exclusive each other. That is when one arises the other 2 cannot arise. So there left 34 cetasikas. This is exploration down to atomic level of citta and cetasikas. In incoming kama sobhana cittas, these explorations will be left out. So leaving these contemplations, the first pair of mahakusala cittas has 38 total cetasikas and when these 38 cetasikas arise then the citta is called 'somanassa saha gatam nana sampayutta asankharika/ sasankharika citta'. There is no cetasika difference between asankharika and sasankharika citta. But the power is not the same. This will be explained in later posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39059 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna/Ken O Hi Larry I am not objecting. Sanna is just marking. Simple as that :). If sanna is ignorance, D.O will have start as Sanna and not ignorance. > I have to say, with some considerable trepidation, the Buddha is > simply wrong when he says dependent on feeling craving arises. He > should have said dependent on perception craving arises. More > generally we could say dependent on perception lobha, dosa, AND > moha arise. In other words, dependent on perception accumulations and latent tendencies condition the arising of craving. You can see > this for yourself in your own experience. Feeling is irrelevant. For the most part, the feeling that we feel is the feeling that accompanies the root cittas. k: Larry sometimes you amaze me :) by your own convictions. As I say before, let see the text what they say and not to have our own conclusion. Our own experience can be very unreliable, dont you think so :). Do you think you will crave for something that doesn't not feel good :). Ken O 39060 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:14am Subject: Re: Please help me to find sutta with: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > Dear Agrios, Larry and all > > How are you? > > Please check "9.Baalapa.n.dita Suttam", Section 19, Nidaana Samyutta, > Samyuttanikaayo. > > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > Hi Suan Lu Zaw and Larry, thank you for your help. I am quite lost when it comes to understand consequences of avija. This "body creation" is taking place after present body is dead, or rather in every moment of avija manifesting itsef? It seems like it is in every moment creation resulting in obtaining body at death of the last citta. Is that the case? Does it mean there is no body apart from what we create? metta, Agrios 39061 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 143 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, At the bottom is encouragement for asking of questions whatever light they are or whatever heavy they are. Whatever be will be, Dhamma Thread will be ongoing for all. The first 2 cittas of 24 kama sobhana cittas have been examined at molecular level. The next 2 cittas or the next pair is nana vippayutta cittas. They are 1. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 2. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika citta Here new Pali word is 'vippayuttam'. Vippayutta means 'without mixing'. So there is no pannindriya cetasika in this pair. So from 38 possible cetasikas, panna is removed and they will be 37 cetasikas. The implications are the same as in the first pair that is nana sampayutta cittas. The third pair is nana sampayutta cittas. So panna is refilled in 37 and then it becomes 38 cetasikas. But this pair is upekkha saha gatam cittas. They are.. 1. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 2. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta So there is no joy or piti at all. So piti has to be removed again from 38 and there will be 37 cetasikas as cetasika atoms of this kama sobhana citta molecule. The fourth pair is nana vippayutta cittas. So from 37 cetasikas of the third pair of cittas, panna cetasika has to be removed. So there is a citta and that citta is accompanied by 36 cetasikas and this make the molecule of upekkha saha gatam nana vippayutta cittas. So in 8 mahakusala cittas, cetasikas are in the 1. first pair __ 38 cetasikas( 7 + 6 + 19 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 38 ) 2. second pair __ 37 cetasikas( 7 + 6 + 19 + 3 + 2 + 0 = 37 ),no nana 3. third pair __ 37 cetasikas( 7 + 5 + 19 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 37 ),no piti 4. fourth pair __ 36 cetasikas( 7 + 5 + 19 + 3 + 2 + 0 = 36 ) no piti and no nana 3 are 3 virati cetasikas and they are samma-kammanta, samma-vaca, samma-ajiva. 2 are 2 appamanna cetasikas and they are karuna and mudita. These do not always arise with kusala cittas. There are kusala cittas without karuna and without mudita at all. Again when arise these 2 cetasikas do not arise together and they are mutually exclusive. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39062 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hello Christine, Sorry for jumping in. On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:36:07 -0000, christine_forsyth wrote: > I am somewhat confused here. Smiling is one of the earliest forms > of non-verbal communication - used by humans and closely related > other species. I am at a loss to understand in what way feigning > friendliness or happiness is honest communication. I know I would > not trust someone whose verbal signals were a pretense, and were not > truthful/real. Perhaps you can help me to understand your > perspective on this? Or maybe give the link to any research? I don't think that Bhante Vimalaramsi wants you to fake, I think he means that by "forcing" a smile is a way to generate good feelings. I read the book "Destructive Emotions", but I don't have it with me anymore so I can't quote it, in that book different scientists (including Paul Ekman, who is famous for his facial/emotions analysis) talks about the relationship between body and emotions, and how one can call the other. So, if you are happy, you smile, but also if you smile, you will make happiness arise. But, don't trust them, try it for yourself, I did it and I have asked my wife to do it, and it works!! The experiment? Wait until you are angry or upset at something or somebody, then immediately as you notice that anger to arise, force yourself to smile, do not try to fight the angry feeling by saying "I am happy, I am happy", no, don't fight, just force your face muscles to smile, just be sure to make them work out a natural smile (well, as natural as it can be), don't force them into a sarcastic smile or anything, just as natural as it can be. Then, notice what follows after a few seconds. Is your anger level still the same? Anywa, I found the following link that might provide some information, but I still recommend the book I mentioned above: http://www.journals.apa.org/prevention/volume3/pre0030002c.html "The phenomenon is delightfully subtle. Saying the phonemes e and ah, which activate smiling muscles, puts people in a better mood than saying the German ü, which activates muscles associated with negative emotions (Zajonc, Murphy, & Inglehart, 1989). Simply activating one of the smiling muscles by holding a pen in the teeth (rather than with the lips, which activates a frowning muscle) is enough to make cartoons seem more amusing (Strack, Martin, & Stepper, 1988). A heartier smile, made not just with the mouth but with raised cheeks as well, works even better (Ekman, Davidson, & Friesen, 1990). Smile warmly on the outside, and you feel better on the inside. Scowl, and the whole world seems to scowl back. It works with posture, too. Sara Snodgrass and her associates (Snodgrass, Higgins, & Todisco, 1986) observed the behavior feedback phenomenon with walking behavior. When taking long strides, with arms swinging and eyes straight ahead, people feel happier than when taking short, shuffling steps, with eyes downcast." :-) -- Hugo 39063 From: Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna/Ken O Hi, Ken & Larry - In a message dated 11/30/04 11:00:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Larry > > I am not objecting. Sanna is just marking. Simple as that :). If > sanna is ignorance, D.O will have start as Sanna and not ignorance. > > > >I have to say, with some considerable trepidation, the Buddha is > >simply wrong when he says dependent on feeling craving arises. He > >should have said dependent on perception craving arises. More > >generally we could say dependent on perception lobha, dosa, AND > >moha arise. In other words, dependent on perception accumulations > and latent tendencies condition the arising of craving. You can see > >this for yourself in your own experience. Feeling is irrelevant. > For the most part, the feeling that we feel is the feeling that > accompanies the root cittas. > > k: Larry sometimes you amaze me :) by your own convictions. As I > say before, let see the text what they say and not to have our own > conclusion. Our own experience can be very unreliable, dont you > think so :). Do you think you will crave for something that doesn't > not feel good :). > > > > > Ken O > > ========================= Ken, I think Larry is correct, but, of course, the Buddha is most certainly also correct. In the D.O. scheme, vedana --> tanha is the standard formulation. This formulation, however, is simply not as detailed as can be obtained by filling in additional links between feeling and craving. There is another sutta, MN 18, in which a conditionality chain including sa~n~na and based in vedana is provided. What is said there is the following: ------------------------------------ Dependent on the eye and visible forms arises eye-consciousness. The coming together of the three is contact. Due to contact there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one proliferates about. What one proliferates about is the source from which ideas derived from the proliferation of perceptions beset a person regarding past, future, and present visible forms cognizable by the eye [and so on].’ ------------------------------------ So, what we have here is vedana --> sa~n~na --> papa~nca. If this is put together with the D.O. linkage of vedana --> tanha, one obtains the longer chain: vedana --> sa~n~na --> papa~nca --> tanha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39064 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 144 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 8 mahakusala cittas there are 1st pair of cittas both are somanassa and nana sampayutta cittas and there are 38 cetasikas. In the 2nd pair, cittas are nana vipayutta and there are 37 cetasikas. In the 3rd pair, piti is removed and nana is present. So there are 37 cetasikas. In the 4th pair of cittas there are not piti and nana and there are 36 cetasikas. ( 38, 37, 37, 36 ). There are 8 mahavipaka cittas. As there are other vipaka cittas these 8 cittas are named as mahavipaka cittas. Other vipaka cittas are rupavipaka cittas, arupavipaka cittas, ahetuka vipaka cittas in loki cittas and phala cittas or lokuttara vipaka cittas. Vipaka means 'resultant'. What we see right now or what we hear right now or what we smell right now or what we taste right now or what we touch right now are all vipaka cittas and these 5 sense consciousness are all ahetuka vipaka cittas. Cittas are 'mental states with different emotional and other mental qualities.' 8 mahavipaka cittas are not of 5 sense consciousness. But when we are active and conscious that is when cittas are in vithi vara, these 8 mahavipaka cittas do the job of tadarammana cittas which are retention consciousness which follow mental impulse which again arises from these mentioned 5 sense consciousness. When we are sleeping in deep rest, these 8 mahavipaka cittas do the job of bhavanga cittas. Actually one of these 8 mahavipaka cittas is our first citta in this very life and that citta is called patisandhi citta. This patisandhi citta determined what the being should be. If patisandhi citta is one of these 8 mahavipaka cittas then the being has to be a human or a deva of one of 6 deva realms. These 8 mahavipaka cittas at atomic level are a citta and combination of 33 different cetasikas. This is right especially for the 1st pair of 8 mahavipaka cittas. These 33 cetasikas are 7 universal cetasikas, 6 pakinnaka cetasikas, 19 universal sobhana cetasikas and 1 pannindriya cetasika ( 7 + 6 + 19 + 1 = 33 cetasikas ). The 1st pair is 1. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika mahavipaka citta 2. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika mahavipaka citta They are accompanied by 33 cetasikas. One atom is pure citta and other 33 atoms are accompnying cetasikas. They make a molecule called 'somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta' or 'sasankharika citta'. These cittas are resultant cittas of the first pair of 8 mahakusala cittas in the past. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39065 From: Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:50am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi, Hugo (and Christine, and Bhante) - In a message dated 11/30/04 11:38:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, eklektik@g... writes: > > Hello Christine, > > Sorry for jumping in. > > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:36:07 -0000, christine_forsyth > wrote: > >I am somewhat confused here. Smiling is one of the earliest forms > >of non-verbal communication - used by humans and closely related > >other species. I am at a loss to understand in what way feigning > >friendliness or happiness is honest communication. I know I would > >not trust someone whose verbal signals were a pretense, and were not > >truthful/real. Perhaps you can help me to understand your > >perspective on this? Or maybe give the link to any research? > > I don't think that Bhante Vimalaramsi wants you to fake, I think he > means that by "forcing" a smile is a way to generate good feelings. ======================== Yes, I think so. Bhante puts great emphasis, it seems to me, on the mind-body relationship, with bodily conditions affecting mental conditions just as much as the reverse. Leigh Brasington, the jhana teacher, in teaching cultivation of joy, so important in that context, instructs students to meditate with a serene smile on one's face. If you will, one could view this as a kind of behaviorist technique. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39066 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:18am Subject: Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Dear Hugo, Christine, and All, Hugo,it is good to read about your philosophical matters of philosophers. But I do not believe these are Dhamma. Do you think that cittas can be created? Do you think that cittas can be abolished? Do you think that cetasikas can be created? Do you think that cetasikas can be abolished? Do you think that rupas can be created? Do you think that rupas can be abolished? Do you think that nibbana can be created? Do you think that nibbana can be abolished? Smile as we know is a complex phenomena. Whatever philosopher prefer, evrything is within dhamma and they must be citta or cetasika or rupa. If not they are not realities. Smile Let us have a look. You may see someone smiles. What you see is light and it is ruparammana. Again that smiling person has the emotion of smiling. This is intrinsically known through through manodvara as dhammarammana which is kayavinatti rupa. The smiling face has kayavinatti rupa at the time of smiling. What you hear someone laughing is voice and it is saddarammana. But there is vacivinatti rupa which does not go through ear but through manodvara. What actually happen in that smiling person will be depend on what he is developing and what he is. If he is an arahat then at the smile there arises hasituppada citta which take the base of heart or hadaya rupa. If not arahat, there are 2 possibilities. One is akusala citta and another is kusala citta. Not every smile is good. There are 1. akusala smile 2. kusala smile 3. abyakata smile ( kiriya smile ) Regarding smile, there is no citta that smiles apart from these 3 kinds. They are 4 lobha mula cittas which are akusala smile, 4 mahakusala smile, 4 mahakiriya smile, 1 ahetuka kiriya smile altogether 13 cittas can cause smile. 'Somanassa javanaani panettha terasa hasanampi janenti'. Do you think these smiling cittas can be created? If there is no wisdom or panna one even cannot distinguish between akusala and kusala smile. By the same token, when there is no panna one cannot distinguish between akusala piti and kusala piti. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > Hello Christine, > > Sorry for jumping in. > > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:36:07 -0000, christine_forsyth > wrote: > > I am somewhat confused here. Smiling is one of the earliest forms > > of non-verbal communication - used by humans and closely related > > other species. I am at a loss to understand in what way feigning > > friendliness or happiness is honest communication. I know I would > > not trust someone whose verbal signals were a pretense, and were not > > truthful/real. Perhaps you can help me to understand your > > perspective on this? Or maybe give the link to any research? > > I don't think that Bhante Vimalaramsi wants you to fake, I think he > means that by "forcing" a smile is a way to generate good feelings. > > I read the book "Destructive Emotions", but I don't have it with me > anymore so I can't quote it, in that book different scientists > (including Paul Ekman, who is famous for his facial/emotions analysis) > talks about the relationship between body and emotions, and how one > can call the other. > > So, if you are happy, you smile, but also if you smile, you will make > happiness arise. > > But, don't trust them, try it for yourself, I did it and I have asked > my wife to do it, and it works!! > > The experiment? > > Wait until you are angry or upset at something or somebody, then > immediately as you notice that anger to arise, force yourself to > smile, do not try to fight the angry feeling by saying "I am happy, I > am happy", no, don't fight, just force your face muscles to smile, > just be sure to make them work out a natural smile (well, as natural > as it can be), don't force them into a sarcastic smile or anything, > just as natural as it can be. > > Then, notice what follows after a few seconds. Is your anger level > still the same? > > Anywa, I found the following link that might provide some information, > but I still recommend the book I mentioned above: > > http://www.journals.apa.org/prevention/volume3/pre0030002c.html > > "The phenomenon is delightfully subtle. Saying the phonemes e and ah, > which activate smiling muscles, puts people in a better mood than > saying the German ü, which activates muscles associated with negative > emotions (Zajonc, Murphy, & Inglehart, 1989). Simply activating one of > the smiling muscles by holding a pen in the teeth (rather than with > the lips, which activates a frowning muscle) is enough to make > cartoons seem more amusing (Strack, Martin, & Stepper, 1988). A > heartier smile, made not just with the mouth but with raised cheeks as > well, works even better (Ekman, Davidson, & Friesen, 1990). Smile > warmly on the outside, and you feel better on the inside. Scowl, and > the whole world seems to scowl back. It works with posture, too. Sara > Snodgrass and her associates (Snodgrass, Higgins, & Todisco, 1986) > observed the behavior feedback phenomenon with walking behavior. When > taking long strides, with arms swinging and eyes straight ahead, > people feel happier than when taking short, shuffling steps, with eyes > downcast." > > :-) > -- > Hugo 39067 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) Hello Christine, On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:08:20 -0000, christine_forsyth wrote: > You may be interested in a little more about the former Khantipalo > Bhikkhu - now Mr. Lawrence Mills - and an update on what he is doing > nowadays. He was born in Britain in 1932, was a Buddhist Theravada > monk from 1959-1991. Thanks for the info on Khantipalo Bhikkhu. More than 30 years, then became married? I understand that in Thailand, and perhaps other countries men become monks for a short period of time then go back to lay life. But after 30 years? Does anybody know if it is a rare situation or if it is common occurrence? I would expect that after 30 years of being a monk and practice you would be more convinced and wouldn't even think on returning to lay life. But more interesting is the fact that he went back to lay life, but still teach Buddhism, so it seems that he still "believes" in Buddhism. I am puzzled and amazed by this. Thanks again for the info, -- Hugo 39068 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:55am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi Christine and Hugo As I said countless times, follow the text. If the text said that you should smile to develop joy, sure go ahead. Are we so sure this smile is not conditioned by lobha mula cittas, and are we so sure when this smile will produced a joy that is also not lobha mula citta. If we are not sure, then we better stick to develop insight of the three characteristics because this is the best way for not doing the wrong thing. The only thing so far I know that will not go wrong is wise attention of reality of the moment (but this must be natural, dont think to try to do it purposely :-) ). Ken O p.s. Buddha and Arahant have smiling cittas - see U.P. 39069 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Hugo > > Definitely study for the sake of study is for the academics and not > for practitioner. > > And what is concentration? Is concentration just look at one kasina > or it is something more interesting to do :). Friend Ken O, I find this to be an excellent post! Good sutta quotes to support an important conclusion: Concentration alone doesn't lead to insight, concentration which leads to dispassion leads to insight. Excellent!! Metta, James 39070 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) Hi James If concentration leads to dispassion then to insight. I think our Buddha would have been enlighted when he met the two teachers and dont need to torture himself so much before he become enlighted Please read the last statement I make during my last post on this. Ken O 39071 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 61 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (h) Hi Larry, op 28-11-2004 17:20 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "What we take for `our memory' or `our recognition' > is not one moment which stays, but many different moments of > saññå which arise and fall away. Because of saññå past experiences > and also concepts and names are remembered, people and things > are recognized." L: This is a good point. Memory is just a moment of memory. The same > thing could be said of a sign or concept. These are moments of > consciousness. N: Sign, nimitta, and concept, paññatti are objects of the citta which thinks. > L:It occured to me this morning that memory hides impermanence. N: As Ken O said: moha hides. Also lobha and wrong view play their parts. L:Maybe > one of the reasons Ananda took so long to realize nibbana is because > he was so involved with memory he didn't pay enough attention to > impermanence. N: He was an ariyan, thus he had realized the three characteristics. He realized arahatship after the Buddha's parinibbana. He had spent the time outside on the walk and was agitated. Co to Minor Readings, V, the Good Omen Discourse: <...Now my energy is over-exerted and so my cognizance tends to agitation. I shall therefore see to balancing my energy...> He was going to take a rest. His feet had left the floor, but his head had not reached the pillow. in that interval he became an arahat. Nina. 39072 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, op 30-11-2004 11:50 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > I believe satipatthana refers to the mundane > path. I think we discussed this before with regard to the Satipatthana > Sutta, but I don't have any quote handy. N: Yes, we discussed that when studying with Larry the Satipatthana Sutta and commentary. It is mundane. And vipassana: goes up to lokuttara. Nina. 39073 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] ."Feeling is just feeling" Dear Sarah, Thank you for the quotes. op 30-11-2004 10:57 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Khun Sujin: "Lobha comes as your master, the Teacher." > ***** > S: I particularly appreciated the reminder that there's "no time to feel > lonely" when there's sati and panna. No concern about oneself at these > moments. Realities are just known for what they are. And then, lobha, the > teacher comes again;-). N: It is so difficult for all of us to recognize lobha, the teacher. Let alone speaking about this to others. You can only sense this when a good friend has pointed this out. People may not like to admit the truth. Nina. 39074 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 61 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (h) Dear Nina, Is that Venerable Ananda? I mean arahat who attained arahatta magga nana out of 4 postures that is not walking, not standing, not sitting, not lying. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 28-11-2004 17:20 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > Nina: "What we take for `our memory' or `our recognition' > > is not one moment which stays, but many different moments of > > saññå which arise and fall away. Because of saññå past experiences > > and also concepts and names are remembered, people and things > > are recognized." > L: This is a good point. Memory is just a moment of memory. The same > > thing could be said of a sign or concept. These are moments of > > consciousness. > N: Sign, nimitta, and concept, paññatti are objects of the citta which > thinks. > > > L:It occured to me this morning that memory hides impermanence. > N: As Ken O said: moha hides. Also lobha and wrong view play their parts. > L:Maybe > > one of the reasons Ananda took so long to realize nibbana is because > > he was so involved with memory he didn't pay enough attention to > > impermanence. > N: He was an ariyan, thus he had realized the three characteristics. He > realized arahatship after the Buddha's parinibbana. He had spent the time > outside on the walk and was agitated. > Co to Minor Readings, V, the Good Omen Discourse: > <...Now my energy is over-exerted and so my cognizance tends to agitation. I > shall therefore see to balancing my energy...> > He was going to take a rest. His feet had left the floor, but his head had > not reached the pillow. in that interval he became an arahat. > Nina. 39075 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:18:15 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > Hugo,it is good to read about your philosophical matters of > philosophers. But I do not believe these are Dhamma. I know that when I feel angry or upset, and force myself to smile, the anger diminishes or dissappears. I know that when I asked my wife to do the same one day she was angry at something (don't remember what), the same happened. That's what I know. Anger is one of the three poisons, when anger arises, this "forced smile" method makes it "go away", "diminish", "not flourish", "not make me do unskillful acts", use whatever phrase you think is proper. If the relationship of the above with the Buddha Dhamma is still not obvious, let me quote: There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right exertions. Just as the River Ganges flows to the east, slopes to the east, inclines to the east, in the same way when a monk develops & pursues the four right exertions, he flows to Unbinding, slopes to Unbinding, inclines to Unbinding. -- SN XLIX.1 Also: And what is the exertion to abandon? There is the case where a monk does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen [in him]. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence. He does not acquiesce to a thought of ill will... a thought of harmfulness... any evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen [in him]. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, wipes them out of existence. This is called the exertion to abandon. -- AN IV.14 More quotes at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2c.html > If there is no wisdom or panna one even cannot distinguish between > akusala and kusala smile. I am not interested in distinguishing anything, Paul Ekman is, not me. I am not analizing the smile per se in "me" or in any "other", I don't care how the smile looks or how it is produced. I am interested in "abandoning" the angry state. -- Hugo 39076 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:55:31 +0000 (GMT), Ken O wrote: > As I said countless times, follow the text. I guess you meant: ....follow the text BLINDLY. > If the text said that > you should smile to develop joy, sure go ahead. If your mind is all perturbed by anger, and smiling is ONE way (not the only, just one) to make it abandon anger, but smile is not in the text, should I not do that? Why not do the following: 1) Smile (or whatever works for you in order to calm your mind). 2) Once calmed, observe what defilements are in the mind. 3) Once identified the defilements, work in abandoning them. > Are we so sure this > smile is not conditioned by lobha mula cittas, and are we so sure > when this smile will produced a joy that is also not lobha mula > citta. If we are not sure, then we better stick to develop insight > of the three characteristics because this is the best way for not > doing the wrong thing. mmmmm.... I think we are approaching this from different points, you are analizing the smile per se. I am looking after the result that smiling produces on "me", which is to tranquil the mind so I can work on it, similar to applying an anesthetic before surgery. Just don't get attached to the smile, nor to the anesthetic! -- Hugo 39077 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:12:03 +0000 (GMT), Ken O wrote: > > Hi James > > If concentration leads to dispassion then to insight. I think our > Buddha would have been enlighted when he met the two teachers and > dont need to torture himself so much before he become enlighted > > Please read the last statement I make during my last post on this. I agree with Ken. Somewhere I read that concentration is what is needed to hold the microscope of the insight still enough in order to see Dhamma. But holding the microsocope without looking into the lens doesn't help you. Scientist 1: "Hey, I can hold the microscope still for 2 hours!" Scientist 2: "Good, what have you discovered?" Scientist 1: "I have discovered that I can hold it still for 2 hours". Scientist 2: "Have you tried to look through the lens?" Scientist 1: "Lens?, why, it is really cool that I can hold it still for 2 hours" Scientist 3: "Hey, I am trying to look through the lens, but it keeps moving". Scientist 2: "What are you going to do about it?" Scientist 3: "I am going to move at the same speed as the microscope, so when I peek through the lens I can see what is at the other end". Scientist 2: "Why don't you try to hold it still, before you look through it?". Scientist 3: "Why?, it is fascinating to try to calculate the speed of its movement, and try to coordinate my peeking with it" Scientist 2 goes to yet another microscope, takes a few minutes to stabilize it, then goes and peeks through the lens and says: "Hey guys, this is great!!!, come and see". Scientist 1: "I can't, if I let loose the microscope, I won't be able to........wait a minute!". Scientist 3: "I can't, I am almost there, I think I can see through the lens....now.....no, ok.....now.....still can't.....ok....now......aaaahhrgghhh!". Greetings, -- Hugo 39078 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:07am Subject: Assured Illumination ... !!! Friends: Sati = Acute Awareness Well-Established, Well-Assured & Well-Founded should Awareness be! Even as the foundation of the Himalaya mountains is quite deep dug in underground and all immovable. Such imperturbable awareness makes illuminating insight arise, since whatever subject mind is directed to, pays attention to, reflects on, is conscious of, investigates or reviews, then this will appear to one as assured & ascertained, all laid open, wholly disclosed and entirely revealed. Such bright mental clarity is due to acute & undistracted awareness, which descends into the object, drills into & penetrates it completely. Even just so do the object appear as plain open, as the other world do to one possessing the divine eye... Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771100 On the 4 Foundations of Awareness: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/message/5394 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 39079 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 0:54pm Subject: Re: Degrees of mindfulness of death and degrees of defilements (was Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Hello Phil, On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:39:54 +0900, plnao wrote: > Just a theory. Please let me know of any faults you see in it. And this, > James, Howard and Hugo (I have yet to get around to the post in "Evil > thoughts" in which the value of discussion is disputed) I think that discussion can provide value to your practice as long as it is a skillful discussion, and it is in balance with the other things needed for the practice (meditation, reading/listening to Dhamma, etc). Spending all your free time reading/listening to Dhamma doesn't make it. Spending all your free time meditating doesn't make it. Spending all your free time discussing, doesn't make it. Mix all of the above together and then apply to your "free" and "non-free" time. Perhaps there is a time when you need to emphasize one or another, only you know when. >If I sat developing my own > theories about suttas, I would become fossilized > in wrong view. Agree, but I would say "I potentially would become....", because it is not for sure. > In the company of good friends, through discussion, one's > wrong views are corrected, and proper > insights that one has had can be confirmed. Now let's use your same words, just change "I" to "we" and "my" to "our": "If we sat developing our own theories about suttas, we would become fossilized in wrong view." The danger is greater when working in a group, because there is the potential to think that because many people arrived to the same conclusion, or many people chose to do X, that should be true, thus Wrong View arises. But to be consistent, add the "potentially" word to the phrase: ".....we potentially would..." Also, in a group, there is a lot of "group psychology" going on, where people tend to bond, and even if your "friend" is a little bit wrong, you tend to defend it "against" the newcomer to the group, or against other person that you don't catalog as a "friend". A lot of this is subconscious, and difficult to notice, let alone accept. It is easier to "move masses" than to "move individuals". So, what I try to do is to study on my own, discuss with others, but put it to the test on my meditation and my daily life! Greetings, -- Hugo 39080 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Please help me to find sutta with: Dear Sarah, and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Suan,Nina & Azita, ,,,,,snip,,,,, > There was one extract in the Vism or Tika which perfectly answered a > question Azita raised in Jetavana about how the bhavanga cittas come to be > disturbed by the visible object or sense object before there is any > experience of it (which didn't get an answer).....Ah, just found it: > > "Text Tiika: but how does there come to be disturbance (movement) of the > life-continuum that has a different support? Because it is connected with > it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on the > surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly sitting > on another grain of sugar moves' (Pm. 478)." > > And without bhavanga cittas in between the sense and mind door > experiences, there could be no sense door or mind door experiences. There > have to be a continuity of cittas experiencing their objects. > ......snip..... > Metta, > > Sarah Azita: thanx for this one. I had put that one in the too-hard basket. I am finding each time I learn a little more, the deeper I see the information goes. Haven't been reading much dsg of late, so must have missed this one. Feeling a bit distracted as I have to have a surgical procedure done today, so will be off-line til next week [not that one would know if I'm around or not as I post so infrequently :-). Have been thinking of the sutta - don't remember name - where the Buddha indicates leaves and sticks lying around on the ground and makes a statement along the lines: see those sticks and leaves lying there, are you able to walk away from them and feel no attachment/remorse about leaving them behind? the listeners said yes, they could. He then asked if they could have the same detachment to their own bodies and minds. I know my answer is no in this second case scenario. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. > ========= 39081 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi James > > If concentration leads to dispassion then to insight. I think our > Buddha would have been enlighted when he met the two teachers and > dont need to torture himself so much before he become enlighted > > Please read the last statement I make during my last post on this. > > > Ken O Friend Ken O, Your response is very rude. I guess I made a mistake about your intended meaning. Forget my praise for you. Metta, James 39082 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:29pm Subject: AZITA [dsg] Re: Please help me to find sutta with: Azita Email me off-list - even if my emails aren't getting through to you - I'm getting yours. I'm concerned about you ... I'll ring the hospital - send me the direct Ward extension number or the Clincial Nurse Consultant's name. Will be thinking of you with metta and karuna - love, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, and others, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Dear Suan,Nina & Azita, > > ,,,,,snip,,,,, > > There was one extract in the Vism or Tika which perfectly answered a > > question Azita raised in Jetavana about how the bhavanga cittas > come to be > > disturbed by the visible object or sense object before there is any > > experience of it (which didn't get an answer).....Ah, just found it: > > > > "Text Tiika: but how does there come to be disturbance (movement) > of the > > life-continuum that has a different support? Because it is > connected with > > it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on > the > > surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly > sitting > > on another grain of sugar moves' (Pm. 478)." > > > > And without bhavanga cittas in between the sense and mind door > > experiences, there could be no sense door or mind door experiences. > There > > have to be a continuity of cittas experiencing their objects. > > ......snip..... > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > Azita: thanx for this one. I had put that one in the too-hard > basket. I am finding each time I learn a little more, the deeper I > see the information goes. > Haven't been reading much dsg of late, so must have missed > this one. Feeling a bit distracted as I have to have a surgical > procedure done today, so will be off-line til next week [not that one > would know if I'm around or not as I post so infrequently :-). > Have been thinking of the sutta - don't remember name - where > the Buddha indicates leaves and sticks lying around on the ground and > makes a statement along the lines: see those sticks and leaves lying > there, are you able to walk away from them and feel no > attachment/remorse about leaving them behind? the listeners said > yes, they could. > He then asked if they could have the same detachment to their > own bodies and minds. I know my answer is no in this second case > scenario. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > > ========= 39083 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:03pm Subject: Re: AZITA [dsg] Re: Please help me to find sutta with: Dear Azita,, I'm also concerned as I as I see your message and Christine's on my way out in a rush for the day. Somehow I expect everyone else to get sick and fall apart from time to time, except for you! Take care and I really hope the procedure goes well - at least you're used to hospitals! I hope you or Christine will let us know how you're doing afterwards. Think of whether you can buy a CD player when you return home so that when we send you a CD from India you can hear the recordings (Jill too) as I know you don't have a fast internet connection. And most of all, remember Courage, Patience and Good Cheer as you always remind us. Of course we all care a lot whether you're following DSG carefully or not and really hope to see your name back on the list soon. Metta, Sarah ======== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > Azita > > Email me off-list - even if my emails aren't getting through to you - > I'm getting yours. > I'm concerned about you ... > I'll ring the hospital - send me the direct Ward extension number or > the Clincial Nurse Consultant's name. > Will be thinking of you with metta and karuna - > love, > Chris 39084 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) Hi Hugo, You wrote: --------------------------- > Somewhere I read that concentration is what is needed to hold the microscope of the insight still enough in order to see Dhamma. But holding the microsocope without looking into the lens doesn't help you. > ----------------- Thanks, I like that. In a moment when the cetasika, insight (samma- ditthi) arises, there is always the supporting cetasika, right concentration (samma-samadhi). Strong insight has strong samadhi and weak insight has weak samadhi. Sometimes, there can be the right (kusala) kind of samadhi but no insight at all, and sometimes there can be samadhi that is just plain wrong (akusala). The rest of your post, I am not so sure about. I think it departs from the teaching of absolute, momentary, reality. The Buddha discovered and taught the true nature of mind: It is a transitory, conditioned phenomenon with the briefest possible duration (less than a billionth of a second). There is no 'holding it still' in the conventional sense. We poor, uninstructed worldlings find that too hard to accept, and we cling to the idea of an abiding (permanent) mind. One of the consequences of our worldling stubbornness is we think there can be no right understanding until the mind has been prepared in certain ways. We have this conventional idea of a meditator who quietens the mind, gets it fixed on a [permanent] object, and then (and only then) insight can arise. This kind of wrong understanding renders 99 percent of our daily lives infertile for insight. And what about the remaining one percent (when we are calmly attentive)? I would say that, too, is rendered infertile by wrong understanding: We still have a wrong understanding of conditionality. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:12:03 +0000 (GMT), Ken O wrote: > > > > > Scientist 2: "Why don't you try to hold it still, before you look through it?". 39085 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:21pm Subject: AZITA [dsg] Re: Please help me to find sutta with: Dear Sarah, Thanks for your concern. I knew about this surgery while in India, but it did not bother me much then. Its not an emergency, and I'm only temporarily falling apart :-) cos I have to go today - usual pre-op nerves. Have written Chris off-line, Just sticks and leaves. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Azita,, > > I'm also concerned as I as I see your message and Christine's on my way > out in a rush for the day. Somehow I expect everyone else to get sick and > fall apart from time to time, except for you! > > Take care and I really hope the procedure goes well - at least you're used > to hospitals! > > I hope you or Christine will let us know how you're doing afterwards. > Think of whether you can buy a CD player when you return home so that when > we send you a CD from India you can hear the recordings (Jill too) as I > know you don't have a fast internet connection. > > And most of all, > > remember Courage, Patience and Good Cheer as you always remind us. Of > course we all care a lot whether you're following DSG carefully or not and > really hope to see your name back on the list soon. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > > > > Azita > > > > Email me off-list - even if my emails aren't getting through to you - > > I'm getting yours. > > I'm concerned about you ... > > I'll ring the hospital - send me the direct Ward extension number or > > the Clincial Nurse Consultant's name. > > Will be thinking of you with metta and karuna - > > love, > > Chris 39086 From: Larry Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna/Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken & Larry - > > In a message dated 11/30/04 11:00:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Larry > > > > I am not objecting. Sanna is just marking. Simple as that :). If > > sanna is ignorance, D.O will have start as Sanna and not ignorance. > > > > > > >I have to say, with some considerable trepidation, the Buddha is > > >simply wrong when he says dependent on feeling craving arises. He > > >should have said dependent on perception craving arises. More > > >generally we could say dependent on perception lobha, dosa, AND > > >moha arise. In other words, dependent on perception accumulations > > and latent tendencies condition the arising of craving. You can see > > >this for yourself in your own experience. Feeling is irrelevant. > > For the most part, the feeling that we feel is the feeling that > > accompanies the root cittas. > > > > k: Larry sometimes you amaze me :) by your own convictions. As I > > say before, let see the text what they say and not to have our own > > conclusion. Our own experience can be very unreliable, dont you > > think so :). Do you think you will crave for something that doesn't > > not feel good :). > > > > > > > > > > Ken O > > > > > ========================= > Ken, I think Larry is correct, but, of course, the Buddha is most > certainly also correct. In the D.O. scheme, vedana --> tanha is the standard > formulation. This formulation, however, is simply not as detailed as can be > obtained by filling in additional links between feeling and craving. There is another > sutta, MN 18, in which a conditionality chain including sa~n~na and based in > vedana is provided. What is said there is the following: > ------------------------------------ > Dependent on the eye and visible forms arises eye-consciousness. The coming > together of the three is contact. Due to contact there is feeling. What one > feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks > about, one proliferates about. What one proliferates about is the source from which > ideas derived from the proliferation of perceptions beset a person regarding > past, future, and present visible forms cognizable by the eye [and so on].’ > ------------------------------------ > So, what we have here is vedana --> sa~n~na --> papa~nca. If this is > put together with the D.O. linkage of vedana --> tanha, one obtains the longer > chain: vedana --> sa~n~na --> papa~nca --> tanha. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard and Ken, Howard, I agree with your formulation but the amazing thing is in ordinary experience feeling isn't even a consideration. I just react to accumulations when they fit into a situation sanna recognizes. It is distinctly conceptual but most of the time there isn't a lot of mental proliferation until after the basic emotional reaction consisting of lobha, dosa, or moha. Perhaps one reason the Buddha says feeling conditions craving is that bodily feeling which arises due to physiological causes does seem to condition craving. The bodily sensations of hunger, for example, can condition craving. I would still contend that sanna mediates between feeling and craving, but maybe it isn't so easy to see in this kind of situation. Consciousness produced bodily feeling (which no one here seems to recognize) is almost always produced by lobha, dosa, or moha. If we look at the lobha, dosa, or moha which produces this feeling, I think we can see that it is conditioned by accumulations and sanna. That conditioning relationship between sanna and accumulations is a conceptual one in the sense of relying on logic, in spite of the fact that concept and reason don't officially condition anything. Sanna operates with concepts. It cognizes the present situation conceptually and matches that with a past situation which is a conceptual formulation. Further emotional reaction to the present situation usually ignores the consciousness produced feeling but proliferates the emotional reaction. Ken, sanna is avijja itself. Nowhere does it say moha is not knowing. Sanna is like a naive, simple, child. When you look at a tree you see a whole tree and a permanent tree. This is sanna at work. The ignorance of dependent arising is not knowing the Four Noble Truths; this is different from doubting the 4NT, which is what moha does. Avijja is getting it wrong all together. It is not ditthi either. Ditthi is more a matter of belief, grasping, holding on to views. This doesn't particularly have anything to do with conceptual content. Sanna is direct, in this moment, and wrong because it conceptualizes, generalizes, eternalizes. If feeling conditioned craving then arahants would crave. Arahants also perceive but panna sees through sanna. Larry 39087 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:33pm Subject: AN III - 100 mental misconduct vs. thoughts of ill-will Hello all Still reflecting on the way intentional action seems to be effective with crude defilements in a way that it can't be with moderate or subtle defilements. AN III 100 has this: "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence" I think the distinction between "misconduct....in mind" and "thoughts of sensuality, ill will and harmfulness" is important. Misconduct in mind is what we do mentally when we know full-well how unwholesome it is. There are many moments during the day where we can see where thoughts are going. If we go along with them, and proliferate knowingly, that is "misconduct" and it can be circumvented in a way that the arising of thoughts cannot. . There are many suttas which can help us - and intentional practice in the light of those suttas can help us - become detached from "misconduct in mind"but thinking that one can prevent "thoughts of etc" from arising so readily is unwise. That is where Abhidhamma guides us in a deeper way than suttas can. The eradication of medium and subtle defilements is a project for many, many lifetimes. Well, abandoning the crude defilements is as well, but progress can be made more predictably in this lifetime, I think.. A bit puzzled by the Buddha's examples of subtle defilements above. Thoughts of caste, home district, not wanting to be despised seem fairly crude.. They are the the aspects of the eight worldly concerns that seem easiest to abandon. Concerns with pain and pleasure are the very subtle ones, I would have thought. Just more theorizing.. If you think it's way off, please help me to correct my views! Or if there is any helpful commentary on this part of the sutta, please pass along a little bit of it. Thanks in advance Metta, Phil p.s Our computer seems to be on its last legs. It's freezing more and more often, and is taking a long time to turn on. If I suddenly disappear from DSG for awhile, don't be concerned. It will be the death of our computer rather than the death of me - probably. I might choke on my cereal this morning! 39088 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Value of discussion (was evil thoughts) Hello Hugo, and all I've been enjoying your posts, Hugo. Welcome to the group. >> However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to >>learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a very good idea >> You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > > patience. > Hugo > Excellent advice James! > When we engage in discussions, there is the danger of fabricating > theories, thoughts which then we think are Dhamma but they are not. > The problem is that instead of learning Dhamma we fabricate our own > version of Dhamma which would be Wrong View, and you know what happens > next.....Wrong Action, etc. I'm not so sure about this. I think there is much more danger of fabricating theories if we read suttas on our own, and reflect on them in isolation, without discussing. The Buddha taught that the company of "admirable friends" is one of the four factors of stream-entry - in fact it's the first one that he mentions. If we discuss with good friends, they help us to see the errors of our views. Now, how do we know they are "admirable?" That's another question. The discerning mind will know, or not. There's nothing that can be done about that. It's due to accumulations. If a foolish person was fortunate enough to have the Buddha whisper in his ear, he still wouldn't have understanding. Of course we should read the theories on our own, and reflect on them before discussing. I guess that's what James meant. Otherwise he and you and anyone else who agrees with the above statement wouldn't be posting here. > My personal opinion is that if a discussion is getting too far from > the facts (whatever is considered the "facts", e.g. the suttas), or if > either part of the discussion don't "know enough", then in starts to > be "mental fabrications" and it will lead us to wrong view, wrong > action, etc. so I prefer to stop the discussion. Phil: You can also help people out. That can involve right effort. As you know, I'm sure, the Buddha approached different questions in different ways. To quote from Wings to Awakening: "the Buddha found it necessary to divide questions into four classes: those meriting a categorical answer, those meriting an analytical answer, those deserving a counter-question, and those deserving to be put aside [AN IV.43]. The first class includes questions that are already well-phrased and can yield straight answers useful in weakening one's mental effluents. The second class includes those that are poorly phrased but are close enough to becoming useful that they can be clarified by a redefinition of terms. The third class covers instances where the real issue is not the question as phrased, but the confused line of thinking or hidden agendas behind the asking of the question. Once these underlying elements are exposed and corrected by the proper counter-question, fruitful questions can then be framed. The final class of questions covers instances where both the question and the act of asking it are so misguided that any attempt to get involved in the issue would lead only to the proliferation of mental effluents, and so the whole issue should be put aside. " Phil: I think we might quickly assume that questions are in the final class and give up on them, when in fact with a bit of generous effort we would see that it is in the second or third class. And help people out with a response. I think of the way Nina tries to bring people back to what is important here and now, in the moment. So patiently, again and again. > Plus, there is the side-effect of the newcomers reading that false > Dhamma (yes, I know "false Dhamma" is an oxymoron, but I am trying to > make a point) and think that it is Dhamma. Phil: So how does sitting on the sidelines help them? Of course, as I said above, people get it, or they don't, so your intervention might seem futile at times, but it can still be right effort on your part, and helpful for your own bhavana even if it doesn't get through. All middle way, of course. Metta, Phil 39089 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:31pm Subject: typo Re: [dsg] Value of discussion (was evil thoughts) Hi Hugh, and all > Of course we should read the theories on our own, and reflect on them before > discussing. revealing typo. My mind leaps so quickly to theorize about suttas that the above might as well be left as it is! Metta, Phil 39090 From: Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please help me to find sutta with: Agrios: "Hi Suan Lu Zaw and Larry, thank you for your help. I am quite lost when it comes to understand consequences of avija. This "body creation" is taking place after present body is dead, or rather in every moment of avija manifesting itself? It seems like it is in every moment creation resulting in obtaining body at death of the last citta. Is that the case? Does it mean there is no body apart from what we create?" Hi Agrios, Let's look at the sutta: "When a fool is obstructed by ignorance and conjoined with craving, this body thus results. Now there is both this body and external name-&-form. Here, in dependence on this duality, there is contact at the six senses. Touched by these, or one or another of them, the fool is sensitive to pleasure & pain." L: This present body is the result of kamma of ignorance and craving mostly in previous lifetimes. Dependent on this present body and external namarupa contact at the six senses arises. With contact arises feeling, pain or pleasure. As the rest of the sutta shows, how one reacts to that feeling determines whether there will be further rebirth. Every consciousness is impermanent so when a consciousness ceases we could figuratively call that a death, but I think this sutta is speaking in more general terms of what we mean by a lifetime of a kamma continuum beginning with a rebirth-linking consciousness and ending with a dieing consciousness. Even if ignorance is extinguished this body will continue until it dies according to its kamma. By "continue" I mean continuously arise and cease within one continuum governed by the kamma of ignorance and craving of previous lifetimes. Larry 39091 From: Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Vism.XIV,119 Vism.XIV,120 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 119. (j) Because of the words 'Mind-element having arisen and ceased, also, next to that there arises consciousness, mind, mentation ... which is appropriate mind-element' (Vbh.89),48 then resultant mind-consciousness-element without root-cause arises 'investigating' the same objective field as that received by mind-element. When next to (55) unprofitable-resultant mind-element it is (56) unprofitable-resultant, and when next to (39) profitable-resultant [mind-element] it is either (40) accompanied by joy in the case of a desirable object, or (41) accompanied by equanimity in the case of a desirable-neutral object. This is how the occurrence of three kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as investigating. ------------------------ Note 48. See Ch. IV, note 13. [This is a long note by B. ~Nanamoli on possible sources of the cognitive series formula. Perhaps Nina will say one or two words instead.] -------------------------- 120. (k) Next to investigation, (71) functional mind-consciousness-element without root-cause arises accompanied by equanimity 'determining' that same objective field. This is how occurrence of one kind of resultant consciousness should be understood as determining. 39092 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:20pm Subject: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Rob: No one puts it clearer than > the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the > DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) > xxvii writes about this: "Because the > functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has > to be taken while the deed is being performed to its > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > But the elements have not the time or span of duration > to carry out such functions" . > > > Phil: So yes, there is delusion when we think "I can > perform." It is all elements. And yet, as I've been saying > lately, there is guidance in the Suttanta related to taking > action on clearly indentified blemishes etc. This is a far > shallower degree of insight than that which will arise, > or not arise, into elements. > > ================= Dear Phil, Delusion is much deeper than when we think "I can perfom". The khandhas really have fallen away, even before we know it. That is why the Dhamma is so gradual and why the Buddha even considered not to teach it. Watch out for subtle ways selfview distorts practice, that is a signpost. Robertk 39093 From: Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna/Ken O Hi, Larry (and Ken) - In a message dated 11/30/04 6:37:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > So, what we have here is vedana --> sa~n~na --> papa~nca. If > this is > >put together with the D.O. linkage of vedana --> tanha, one obtains > the longer > >chain: vedana --> sa~n~na --> papa~nca --> tanha. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Hi Howard and Ken, > > Howard, I agree with your formulation but the amazing thing is in > ordinary experience feeling isn't even a consideration. I just react > to accumulations when they fit into a situation sanna recognizes. It > is distinctly conceptual but most of the time there isn't a lot of > mental proliferation until after the basic emotional reaction > consisting of lobha, dosa, or moha. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Larry, I suspect there really is a good deal of mental proliferation, but it is subtle, not "highlighted" in our experience, not "registering" at the highest level of awareness. I suspect that should we cultivate stronger clarity in our experience, and strengthened powers of attention (by means of sustained mindfulness), and greater background calm, this mental concocting will become more evident. I think there are subtle levels of concocting and grosser levels, with the grosser levels being more evident. --------------------------------------------- > > Perhaps one reason the Buddha says feeling conditions craving is that > bodily feeling which arises due to physiological causes does seem to > condition craving. The bodily sensations of hunger, for example, can > condition craving. I would still contend that sanna mediates between > feeling and craving, but maybe it isn't so easy to see in this kind > of situation. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is actually the feeling itself that is directly craved. Contact with an object yields feeling. When that feeling is pleasantness, we want it, but since recognition (sa~n~na) intervenes, we *think* it is the contacted object that we want. This is most especially so in the case of mind-door contact with projected pa~n~nati as object. (Likewise for feeling that is not pleasant, where the craving is for its absence.) This teaching of the Buddha's that is expressible by phassa --> vedana --> sa~n~na --> papa~nca --> tanha is, IMO, an amazing, powerful insight into the operation of mind. It is brilliant! ---------------------------------------------- Consciousness produced bodily feeling (which no one > > here seems to recognize) is almost always produced by lobha, dosa, or > moha. If we look at the lobha, dosa, or moha which produces this > feeling, I think we can see that it is conditioned by accumulations > and sanna. That conditioning relationship between sanna and > accumulations is a conceptual one in the sense of relying on logic, > in spite of the fact that concept and reason don't officially > condition anything. Sanna operates with concepts. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, "higher order" sa~n~na operates with concepts, or, perhaps better said, it operates with thoughts. (Concepts per se aren't really objects. They are imagined objects.) But the sa~n~na conditioned by a physical sense door doesn't work with thoughts; it serves as a *starting point* for a thought process that is conceptual proliferation. -------------------------------------- It cognizes the > > present situation conceptually and matches that with a past situation > which is a conceptual formulation. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. I think the operation is a bit too elementary/primitive to say it cognizes conceptually. I agree it compares the current object with a mark set by a prior sa~n~na operation, but this is more of a proto-conceptualizing, I think, than a full blown conceptualizing when applying to physical sense-door objects. -------------------------------------- Further emotional reaction to the > > present situation usually ignores the consciousness produced feeling > but proliferates the emotional reaction. > > Ken, sanna is avijja itself. Nowhere does it say moha is not knowing. > Sanna is like a naive, simple, child. When you look at a tree you see > a whole tree and a permanent tree. This is sanna at work. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it is a higher level sa~n~na. But it isn't quite right to say that sa~n~na is avijja itself. It is *infected* by avijja. In fact, I see *all* the links of D.O. as infected by avijja. (So, for example, feeling isn't just pleasantness or unpleasantness or neutrality. It is "I like" or "I dislike" or "I am neutral about".) ----------------------------------------- The > > ignorance of dependent arising is not knowing the Four Noble Truths; > this is different from doubting the 4NT, which is what moha does. > Avijja is getting it wrong all together. It is not ditthi either. > Ditthi is more a matter of belief, grasping, holding on to views. > This doesn't particularly have anything to do with conceptual > content. Sanna is direct, in this moment, and wrong because it > conceptualizes, generalizes, eternalizes. > > If feeling conditioned craving then arahants would crave. Arahants > also perceive but panna sees through sanna. ------------------------------------------- Howard: This is much the point I made in all my "strange" writings about D.O. In an arahant, the unraveling phase of D.O. has occured, and the ignorance-conditioned links are all done and gone. An arahant recognizes, but recognizes correctly, with no distortion. That is no longer the same sa~n~na. ----------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39094 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:15pm Subject: Re: AN III - 100 mental misconduct vs. thoughts of ill-will Hi Phil, ------------------ Ph: > Still reflecting on the way intentional action seems to be effective with crude defilements in a way that it can't be with moderate or subtle defilements. ------------------- Perish the thought! If there were intentional actions (a polite name for 'rite and ritual') that dealt with crude defilements, the Buddha would have delivered an entirely different Dhamma. It would have listed steps just like we see in the instruction manual to a kit- form set of shelves (or whatever). Instead, he described all the different states of consciousness so that we could eventually verify his descriptions for ourselves. I suspect you may have missed the point of the sutta you have quoted. Consequently, you have interpreted 'crude defilements' in the conventional way. But I think the sutta is referring to 'doubt' 'wrong view' and 'belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual.' They are 'abandoned, destroyed, dispelled, wiped out of existence' by Path factors at the stage of Stream-entry. -------------------------- Ph: > AN III 100 has this: "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. > -------------------------- The sutta then describes the defilements lying latent in the consciousness of a Stream-enterer and a Once-returner: ------------------------- > When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities:thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. > -------------------------- Then it describes the Path-consciousness of an Non-returner with respect to its eradication of the moderate impurities: ----------------- > These he abandons,destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. > ----------------- And the Path Consciousness at the stage of Arahanthood: -------------------- > These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence" > Ph: > There are many suttas which can help us - and intentional practice in the light of those suttas can help us - become detached from "misconduct in mind" but thinking that one can prevent "thoughts of etc" from arising so readily is unwise. That is where Abhidhamma guides us in a deeper way than suttas can. > --------------------- I am sure the Suttanta method and the Abhidhamma method are one and the same, and there is no rite or ritual that detaches us from anything. It is a pity that nearly all of us begin our Dhamma studies at the deep end (Suttanta) and only later, if at all, do we venture into the shallow end (Abhidhamma). Actually, I don't think the Dhamma has a shallow end, but you know what I mean: one end is over our heads, and the other end is hopelessly over our heads. :-) ---------------- Ph: >A bit puzzled by the Buddha's examples of subtle defilements above. Thoughts of caste, home district, not wanting to be despised seem fairly crude.. They are the the aspects of the eight worldly concerns that seem easiest to abandon. Concerns with pain and pleasure are the very subtle ones, I would have thought. ---------------- As I said, I suspect you had not interpreted this sutta as describing the defilement-eradicating functions of the Path-factors. Otherwise, you would have realised the above were the seemingly harmless conceits of an Anagami. Easy mistake! --------------------- <. . .> p.s Our computer seems to be on its last legs. It's freezing more and more often, and is taking a long time to turn on. --------------------- Bad luck. Has it been defragmented lately? Ken H 39095 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:09pm Subject: Re: Metta for oneself translation question Dear Sarah, Thanks for the comprehensive replies. It seems likely that the English translation of Mahasi Sayadaw’s translation is wrong. You quoted the same Pali words with the conventional translation. The word “deserve” does not fit with Mahasi’s introduction to and with the rest of the translation. I wouldn’t equate metta for oneself with covetousness. I thought that if, using the pun, you “mind your own mind’s business” (Nyanaponika) then this is metta for oneself without covetousness. Although greed means more than wanting the possessions of others. Dr Elizabeth Ashby wrote: “The commentators of old were much more drastic. Greed is "delight in one's own possessions."” http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/genbud/bodhi014.zip Nyanaponika did write: “Love, without speaking and thinking of "I", knowing well that this so-called "I" is a mere delusion.” http://www.buddhanet.net/ss03.htm == S: If one thinks one should develop metta to oneself, one will just develop more and more attachment and it will bring more and more problems. A: The word “should” seems important here. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: “This might appear to contradict what we said earlier, that metta is free from self-reference. The contradiction is only apparent, however, for in developing metta towards oneself one regards oneself objectively, as a third person. Further, the kind of love developed is not self-cherishing but a detached altruistic wish for one's own well-being.” http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#n19 A friend wrote to me to wish all beings be happy, not all beings except Antony Woods. What did Munindra say about metta for oneself? I never met him but I have confidence in him. May you be well and happy, Antony. 39096 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:16pm Subject: Re: Degrees of mindfulness of death and degrees of defilements (was Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Hi Hugo Our paths crossed here. I replied to that earlier post of yours before seeing this one. Sorry about that. > I think that discussion can provide value to your practice as long as > it is a skillful discussion, and it is in balance with the other > things needed for the practice (meditation, reading/listening to > Dhamma, etc). Right. Finding that balance is what the middle way is all about. I do think that I could benefit from sitting on my theories for a couple of days before sharing them with the group, but don't. I think it might be beneficial if one developed the habit of discussing every other day, of having silent days between. For example. > Spending all your free time reading/listening to Dhamma doesn't make it. > Spending all your free time meditating doesn't make it. > Spending all your free time discussing, doesn't make it. > > Mix all of the above together and then apply to your "free" and "non-free" time. > > Perhaps there is a time when you need to emphasize one or another, > only you know when. Yes, well said. > >If I sat developing my own > > theories about suttas, I would become fossilized > > in wrong view. > > Agree, but I would say "I potentially would become....", because it is > not for sure. Yes, again well said. I would say "probably." > > In the company of good friends, through discussion, one's > > wrong views are corrected, and proper > > insights that one has had can be confirmed. > > Now let's use your same words, just change "I" to "we" and "my" to "our": > > "If we sat developing our own theories about suttas, we would become > fossilized in wrong view." > > The danger is greater when working in a group, because there is the > potential to think that because many people arrived to the same > conclusion, or many people chose to do X, that should be true, thus > Wrong View arises. Well, fortunately at DSG there is always disagreement. I used to deplore the participation of people who didn't share the group's founding principles (appreciation of Abhidhamma being one of them) and refer to them as doing "dojo yaburi." (When students of one martial arts teacher burst into the practice play of another to show off their superiority.) Now I see how helpful the courteous clash of views can be! > But to be consistent, add the "potentially" word to the phrase: > ".....we potentially would..." > > Also, in a group, there is a lot of "group psychology" going on, where > people tend to bond, and even if your "friend" is a little bit wrong, > you tend to defend it "against" the newcomer to the group, or against > other person that you don't catalog as a "friend". A lot of this is > subconscious, and difficult to notice, let alone accept. Again, very well said. When I first came here and someone was disrespectful of my friend Nina, I flipped out and had a go at him. I don't think that would happen anymore, but who's to say for sure? But you make a very important point. I think it's something we outgrow pretty quickly though. > It is easier to "move masses" than to "move individuals". I like that! I'm sure I will use that someday when writing about Japan. Thanks. > So, what I try to do is to study on my own, discuss with others, but > put it to the test on my meditation and my daily life! Hear Hear. Daily life is where it really happens for me. Metta, Phil 39097 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi Rob > Delusion is much deeper than when we think "I can perfom". The > khandhas really have fallen away, even before we know it. That is > why the Dhamma is so gradual and why the Buddha even considered not > to teach it. > Watch out for subtle ways selfview distorts practice, that is a > signpost. > Robertk Thank you always for these reminders. I am heading into a period when I suspect I will be addicted to suttas and will be at risk of not studying Abhidhamma enough. (When there is an hour available for Dhamma study, and I have an anthology of suttas in one hand, and CMA in the other, I wonder how often I will choose CMA!? :) Of course studying suttas needn't lead to self-view, but it seems to me that it is more likely to do it than studying Abhidhamma is. Not much to feed self-view in Abhidhamma, expect possibly for conceit related to "getting" it. So many mental moments have fallen away during the minute or so during which I wrote this. And this. And this. But then there are the accumulations, the asevayas (sp?) They don't *seem* to fall away, they seem more constant. I want to know more about them. They come up in Lodewijk's speech, which I will be looking at tomorrow. Metta, Phil 39098 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:57pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 64 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (k) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** Saññå arises with all cittas of the four jåtis. Saññå is of the same jåti as the citta it accompanies and thus saññå can be akusala, kusala, vipåka or kiriya. Saññå can be classified according to the six kinds of objects which are experienced through the six doors and this reminds us that saññå is different all the time. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Sixes, Chapter VI, §9, A Penetrative Discourse): -“Monks, perceptions are six: perceptions of visible objects, sounds, -smells, tastes, touches and ideas.” The perception of visible object is not the perception of sound and it is not the perception of a concept. When we for example talk to someone else there is saññå which perceives sound, there is saññå which perceives visible object, there is saññå which perceives tangible object, there is saññå which perceives a concept. All these saññås are completely different from one another and they arise at different moments. Objects appear one at a time through the different doorways and different saññås mark and remember these objects. When we understand this it will help us to see that our life actually is one moment of citta which experiences one object through one of the six doors. The ultimate truth is different from conventional truth, namely, the world of people and things which seem to last. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 39099 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 0:50am Subject: Band-aids, Control and Puppy dog Tails…..(without much Pali for Joop!) Dear Phil, (Joop & RobM), I’d like to add a little more to all the other fine posts on these topics. I always follow your threads with interest too. Please keep up the Park walk series. We always smile a lot whilst reading them, even if they are about evil thoughts;-). This morning we went for an early morning walk along Puppy Dog Trail (aka Snake Path) and came across quite a few yappy dogs, but not yet in their winter coats in Hong Kong yet. We have new fines for trainers who don’t clear up or 'take control' and somehow even the yaps seem less yappy these days. So I’m all for training the trainers and the pups and for all kinds of band-aids too. Whenever a student visits me squealing about a cut or a bruise or even a headache, I reach for the band-aid packet and administer it with a little TLC and it seems to do magic;-) End of squeals for the class. Some arrive these days with their own fluorescent coloured varieties of band-aids and other remedies already administered by school nurses, mothers or maids. We all have our preferences and special methods for dealing with all those daily troubles that come our way. Is there anything wrong in using band-aids, in training pups, in turning off the War saga, avoiding eye contact with beggars in India (as Christine was taught) or sealing one’s lips(or even those of a few teenage boys as I confess to having done at times!!)? No!! Is there one band-aid that suits all, of course not either. We all have our own styles, preferences, methods or techniques for managing our lives and indeed we often swap band-aids or recipes too. If we think that we mustn’t apply a band-aid or follow a recipe, it would be indicative of a kind of wrong view of anatta meaning let pups or teenagers or loud mouths run wild. Anatta and no control simply means that whether or not we apply the band-aid, which colour gets to be applied and whether it will have any desired effect or not will depend on many, many factors. Every thought, intention, effort, act, speech, movement, like or dislike, as well as every other mental and physical element, is dependent on numerous conditions. The self, which only appears in our fantasies, never has existed and never will exist to exert any say in the matter at all. This is the illusion that only a Buddha could discover and teach us. So apply as many band-aids as you like (or rather, as conditions allow) and develop awareness of the realities appearing at these times too, so that gradually understanding can grow which knows the difference between when there is and is not any awareness, regardless of whether it’s a pink florescent or a a spotty green band-aid (or no band-aid at all!) that is being applied at the time. Gradually, by developing more understanding, the world of realities will be clearly distinguished from the world of concepts and there won’t be any question about what actions should or should not be followed, who is applying the remedies, whether band-aids have anything to do with the Path or whether pups can really be trained. You made many of these points beautifully in your tranquilizer comments to Bhante V. The Middle Way is following the Path regardless of the tranquilizers used along the way. Phil, I liked a comment Nina made recently on another thread: “Through the development of right understanding we notice more and more how deeply rooted clinging to self is, no matter what we do. We see ourselves as sitting, we cling to the posturs! I want to be good, I again. I study, I again, I write, I again. And so on.” I also have a textual quote I’ve been saving for you with more on the abandoning of ill-will which I’ll type out below, to be understood in the light of anatta and the development of satipatthana, of course!! I quoted briefly from it in a post to Mike recently. I’ll add more here as it includes the hot poker you’ve mentioned so appropriately. Metta and best wishes for the development of satipatthana and all things nice. Sarah From Sammohavinodani (Dispeller), Classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness, 1257f *** “Furthermore, six things lead to the abandoning of ill-will: 1) the acquiring of the sign of amity, 2) devotion to the development of amity, 3) reviewing ownership of kamma, 4) much reflection, 5) good friendship, 6) suitable talk. * 1) For ill-will is abandoned in one who acquires amity in any of the forms of specific or general directional pervasion. 2) and also in one who develops amity by limited and unlimited directional pervasion; 3) also in one who reviews the ownership of his own or others’ kamma thus: ‘And if you are angry with him, what will you do? Can you destroy his virtuous conduct, etc? Have you not come by reason of your own kamma, and will you not go, too, by reason of your own kamma? Becoming angry with another is like wanting to strike another by picking up red-hot coals, a hot poker, excrement and so on. And if he is angry with you, what will he do? Can he destroy your virtuous conduct, etc? He has come by reason of his own kamma and will go, too, by reason of his own kamma. Like an unaccepted present, like a handful of dust thrown against the wind, this anger of his will fall back on his own head only;’ 4) also in one who remains in reflection after reviewing the ownership of kamma. 5) Ill-will is abandoned also in one who cultivates good friends who delight in the development of amity like the Elder Assagutta. 6) Also it is abandoned through suitable talk while standing, sitting, etc, which is based on amity. * Hence it was said [above]: “Six things lead to the abandoning of ill-will: the acquiring of the sign of amity, devotion to the development of amity, reviewing the ownership of kamma, much reflection, good friendship, suitable talk”. But he understands that it is through the Never-Returner path that there comes to be the future non-arising of the ill-will abandoned by means of these six things.” ====================================================== 39100 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 1:26am Subject: Azita news Hello Sarah, all, Just a note to say that I have spoken to Azita. All has gone well, she will be home again on the weekend if not sooner, and her sister will be staying with her and taking good care of her. She promises to take it easy, and obey orders. Hmmmm ... too agreeable, too submissive - might warn her sister. :-) We then settled down to talk Dhamma for nearly an hour. I'll keep you informed. metta and peace, Christine (who feels considerably better now) ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 39101 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Azita news Hi Chris, Thanks so much for this good news! I was concerned but was also reflecting on detachment and how it is only visible object that's seen, but sanna vipallasa definitely plays its role (Ken O!), attending to the details and assisting the citta and other akusala mental factors to mark and attend to all the following concepts with so precious little equanimity in my case, whenever a friend is involved. I came across Azita's welcome to Naresh, encouraging the importance of right understanding in the first place. Short and very sweet. I'm glad you had a good dhamma talk too. By far the best medicine, whether the sweet or bitter kind. Hopefully she'll be back posting with good cheer in no time. Meanwhile another friend is plotting to make sure she will have no problem listening to the India c.d, so we'll see... Metta and thanks again. Sarah p.s If I forget to say it later, I wish all the Cooranites a good weekend get together with lots of useful discussion. If you or anyone else has the right equipment to download, you may even be able to listen to a part of the India discussions by then too.... ========================================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > Hello Sarah, all, > > Just a note to say that I have spoken to Azita. All has gone well, 39102 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 2:28am Subject: Death Dear Group, I am reading a book called "Who Dies?" by Stephen and Ondrea Levine - an investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious Dying. The first page tells how, each and every year, 70 million people die from all causes - Imagine that! 70,000,000 men women and children! This statistic brought about the reflection 'If this happens to all of those people, what is there to prevent it happening to me at anytime?' There is no prevention, no way to deflect approaching death - nothing that will protect any one of us - surely something to think about ... ["I am of the nature to die, I have not gone beyond death" is to be recollected daily.] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 39103 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:00am Subject: Re: Death Dear Christine, It is better to contemplate death at each action. 'Daily' is still vague. I am sitting. I may die before standing. I am typing. I may die before I finish. My arms are bended. I may die before they are stretched out. If you practise from action to action, this sort of meditation will finally lead you to a sort of calmness. This does help anyone who practise death contemplation. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > I am reading a book called "Who Dies?" by Stephen and Ondrea Levine - > an investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious Dying. > The first page tells how, each and every year, 70 million people die > from all causes - Imagine that! 70,000,000 men women and children! > This statistic brought about the reflection 'If this happens to all > of those people, what is there to prevent it happening to me at > anytime?' > There is no prevention, no way to deflect approaching death - > nothing that will protect any one of us - surely something to think > about ... > > ["I am of the nature to die, I have not gone beyond death" is to be > recollected daily.] > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 39104 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 145 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, 40 lokuttara cittas and 27 mahaggata(jhana) cittas have been discussed down to molecular level. Among 54 kamavacara cittas, 8 mahauksala cittas have been discussed. In the previous post 2 cittas that is the first pair of 8 mahavipaka cittas were discussed. The second pair is nana vippayutta cittas. This means in these two cittas, there is no pannindriya cetasika. Their full names are 1. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 2. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika citta The first pair is accompanied by 33 cetasikas that is 7 universal cetasikas, 6 particular cetasikas, 19 universal sobhana cetasikas and 1 pannindriya cetasika altogether 7 + 6 + 19 + 1 = 33 cetasikas. In this 2nd pair, pannindriya cetasika does not arise and so there arise 32 cetasikas. So in these 2 molecules of dhamma, one atom which is citta links with other 32 cetasika atoms with paccaya bonds. The third pair of 8 mahavipaka cittas is 1. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 2. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta. From 32 cetasikas of 2nd pair, piti does not arise. So there will be 31 cetasikas. But as pannindriya arises in both cittas, 1 is added and there will be a total of 32 cetasikas in each of 3rd pair. The fourth pair of 8 mahavipaka cittas is 1. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 2. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika citta. There is no panna arises in both of 4th pair of cittas. So there arise 31 cetasikas. In 8 mahavipaka cittas, the possible cetasikas that can accompany are 33 in the 1st pair, 32 in the 2nd pair, 32 in the 3rd pair and 31 in the 4th pair of 8 mahavipaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39105 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:33am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 146 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 8 mahavipaka cittas, 3 virati cetasikas do not arise. Because as they are resultant consciousness they do not need to specifically avoid kayaducarita or vaciducarita or dujiva and equally they do not need to do so as they do not require avoid. Karuna and mudita are not of the cetasikas of 8 mahavipaka cittas. These 8 cittas are resultant consciousness and they do not perform any javana function. These 8 cittas are patisandhi cittas or bhavanga cittas or cuti cittas or tadarammana cittas. In all these 4 functions of citta, karuna and mudita do not arise and they do not need to arise. So among 25 sobhana cetasikas, 3 virati and 2 appamanna are excluded in 8 mahavipaka cittas. So there will be 7 universal cetasikas, 6 pakinnaka cetasikas, and 20 sobhana cetasikas altogether 33 maximal possible cetasikas in 8 mahavipaka cittas. Each of these 8 mahavipaka cittas are the result of each of 8 mahakusala cittas in the past. So they seem to be similar but functionwise they are totally different. While 8 mahakusala cittas are performing their javana functions, 8 mahavipaka cittas perform their functions of patisandhi kicca (function), bhavanga kicca, cuti kicca, and tadarammana kicca. While 8 mahakusala cittas arise they at the time of arising have already produced kamma for later results. But when 8 mahavipaka cittas arise they do not produce or create any kamma at all because they are just the result of previous action which were 8 mahakusala cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39106 From: Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Azita news Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/1/04 4:27:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > Hello Sarah, all, > > Just a note to say that I have spoken to Azita. All has gone well, > she will be home again on the weekend if not sooner, and her sister > will be staying with her and taking good care of her. She promises > to take it easy, and obey orders. Hmmmm ... too agreeable, too > submissive - might warn her sister. :-) We then settled down to > talk Dhamma for nearly an hour. I'll keep you informed. > > metta and peace, > Christine (who feels considerably better now) > ======================= Christine, thank you for the kindness of reporting this good news. Azita, my best to you. Heal quickly and well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39107 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 147 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 24 kama sobhana cittas or beautiful sensuous consciousness, we have discussed on 8 mahakusala cittas and 8 mahavipaka cittas down to the molecular level. Each of 121 cittas and each of 52 cetasikas have been discussed in the previous posts. Currently we are discussing which cetasikas arise with each citta. 40 lokuttara cittas, 27 jhana cittas, 8 mahakusala cittas and 8 mahavipaka cittas have been discussed in the previous posts. Citta is an atom of dhamma and cetasikas are other atoms of dhamma. When they are combined in the manner of sampayutta ( inseparably mixed ), they become molecules of Dhamma. In 8 mahakiriya cittas which are kamavacara sahetuka cittas, there do not arise 3 virati cetasikas namely samma-kammanta, samma-vaca, and samma-ajiva. Sahetuka means 'with hetu or root'. Root dhamma in these mahakiriya cittas are alobha, adosa and amoha. As there is ahetuka kiriya citta which is hasituppada citta, these 8 kama cittas are called sahetuka cittas. Arahats all have done their job at arahatta magga kala. Kala means 'time' or 'specific time'. At magga kala, all 8 parts of NEP Noble Eightfold Path arise. When 3 virati cannot arise together in kamavacara mahakusala cittas, they do arise together at magga kala and phala kala. Since arahats have done their job of eradicating all defilements, they do not need to eradicate anything further more. So when kamavacara citta arises in them, there do not arise 3 virati cetasikas. In 8 mahakiriya cittas, there arise 7 universal cetasikas, 6 pakinnaka cetasikas, 19 universal sobhana cetasikas and 2 appamanna cetasikas and 1 pannindriya cetasika altogether 7 + 6 + 19 + 2 + 1 = 35 cetasikas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39108 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 4:06am Subject: Re: Death A very good book Christine, I think I even mentioned it on dsg before. He is extremely compassionate and understanding about death. It was one of the books that helped me understand how to develop maranasati. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > I am reading a book called "Who Dies?" by Stephen and Ondrea Levine - > an investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious Dying. > The first page tells how, each and every year, 70 million people die > from all causes - time--- 39109 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: What means 'no control' ? And band-aids Dear Nina, Sarah, KenO and all J:> but why this dispositions not fall away: not in a > split second, not in some years and not in aeons? Nina: This is frightening, isn't it? They are dormant in each citta, they do not arise with the akusala citta, and thus we cannot say they fall away. They condition the arising of akusala citta. … by developing understanding of the eightfold Path, these latent tendencies wear away. Joop No, it's not frightening. I know I had to do work on the roots of desire, hate and delusion, and developing understanding, in insight meditation and in daily life, is good for that work. Still in my (primitive) intuition it is a kind of atta-belief, to think that 'things' like dispositions are more or less permanent. ========================================== J: >my main question still is: it still also the case for animals ? Nina: Ken O explained, animals do not have the capacity to develop understanding. Take the Bodhisatta's horse Kanthaka who was so sad to have to return to the palace. But he was reborn a deva, and he could then listen to the Dhamma. …I also feel a lot for animals. Joop: I thought KenO said animals have only a little capacity to develop understanding. So somewhere hundred thousands years ago that capacity (that faculty) started. What to say on the story of that horse ? I like fairy tales but I don't really think Kanthaka could (as a deva) listen to the Dhamma: does a deva have ears and who's talking, or does the Dhamma exist there in printed form? Useless questions of course but still that's why I can take such stories serious. I don't feel a lot for animals: I think I am (partly) an animal because I think the evolutionary theory (Darwinism) is a rather good theory. I realize Jataka-stories and theories like Darwinism all belong to the conceptual reality, and not to the ultimate one. And (to me) the concepts are as such not important, we only need concepts to talk about the ultimate reality. In the time the Buddha lived, and in his culture, fairy tales were the form of that talking. They have a soteriological function, it's not important that they (as hisorical facts) never happened. And I think in our time we need other stories, that's why the relation between buddhism and evolutionary theory does interests me, and other theories from the natural science too. If the dsg is not the place to discuss about them, then I can better leave. ========================================== Sarah: Anatta and no control simply means that whether or not we apply the band-aid, which colour gets to be applied and whether it will have any desired effect or not will depend on many, many factors. Joop: I think the 'band-aid' is a usefull metaphore, I think I have some, belonging to my culture and my (temporary) identity; natural science as a way of understanding the conceptual reality is one of them. Metta Joop 39110 From: plnao Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN III - 100 mental misconduct vs. thoughts of ill-will Hi Ken Thanks for the feedback > ------------------ > Ph: > Still reflecting on the way intentional action seems to be > effective with crude defilements in a way that it can't be with > moderate or subtle defilements. > ------------------- > > Perish the thought! If there were intentional actions (a polite name > for 'rite and ritual') that dealt with crude defilements, the Buddha > would have delivered an entirely different Dhamma. It would have > listed steps just like we see in the instruction manual to a kit- > form set of shelves (or whatever). Instead, he described all the > different states of consciousness so that we could eventually verify > his descriptions for ourselves. Needless to say, like all beginners, I see the exhortative, prescriptive sounding language used in the suttas (in translation, at the very least, and presumedly in the original as well) and take it as written. You're right though, it is so much better to see them as descriptive. So, when we read, for example, that one removes an unwholesome thought and replaces it with a wholesome one the way a carpenter replaces a rotten peg with a solid one, it is a description of what happens when panna rules rather than a prescription of what someone should do. For example, we talk of guarding sense doors, and it's easy to think of this as a prescribed practice, but whenever there is kusala citta, the sense doors *are* guarded, because there can only be congnition through one sense door at a time. > I suspect you may have missed the point of the sutta you have > quoted. Consequently, you have interpreted 'crude defilements' in > the conventional way. But I think the sutta is referring > to 'doubt' 'wrong view' and 'belief in the efficacy of rite and > ritual.' They are 'abandoned, destroyed, dispelled, wiped out of > existence' by Path factors at the stage of Stream-entry. Yes, I was caught by that "mental misconduct." Does that mean tthe doubt, wrong view, belief in efficacy of rites and rituals that are wiped out at stream-entry? You say you "think" this is the case. Is that confirmed in the Bhikkhu Bodhi commentary? It certainly sounds right, what you're saying, those references to defilements being abandoned at stages of insight. Nina taught me something about this during the summer, when I was posting passages from Deeds of Merit. Time to re-read those. It takes me such many repeated readings to retain things. I was reading meaning into the sutta in a way that supported what I was going through. Of course, as I've said in other posts recently, I suspected that was what I was up to, so am aware of the danger of reading suttas on my own without commentary. I will have that soon when the MN with commentary of BB arrives. On the other hand, another opportunity to be grateful to the Buddha, who supplies so much help for people with all levels of insight. Those suttas that I list in the original "evil thoughts" post, even when misinterpreted (I'm not sure they all were) led me to eliminate a very unwholesome habit, even while they didn't get at the root problem. (A very helpful band-aid, at least. Thanks for the post, Sarah. I haven't read it yet, but will tomorrow, and will probably get back to you in a few days.) (snip) > and there is no rite or ritual that detaches us from > anything. That's right. Thanks for the reminder. It is a pity that nearly all of us begin our Dhamma > studies at the deep end (Suttanta) and only later, if at all, do we > venture into the shallow end (Abhidhamma). Very interesting. I always assume Abhidhamma is the deep end, but maybe you're right. Suttanta is like the deep end because it is so very easy for us to drown in it and get lost in the conventional language. I can see the risk of that. And it's like the deep end because we have to get beneath the surface of the conventional language, getting deep between what appears at times to be quite shallow. But how can we? I look forward to reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's introdutcion to the MN anthology. I would like to know more about why the Buddha chose to use such active, exhortative language. It can't all be the fault of the translators. As Rob K said in another post, the Buddha almost gave up on teaching the Dhamma, because he knew that people wouldn't accept its subtlety, that they wouldn't be patient with its being so gradual. So why did he use such exhortative language? Why did he use the active voice instead of the passive voice more often? Why did he use turns of phrase that could only serve to hasten the misinterpretations that he saw coming? I really do appreciate your help here, Ken. But of course I will still be thinking about this sort of thing. I can't yet shed a suspicion there the reason the Buddha seems to be prescribing action is that he *did* prescribe action to people at low degrees of insight even as he offered subtler courses of non-action for people with more developed levels of insight. That the same sutta can be read as both prescriptive and descriptive, depending on the level of insight of the person involved. This is just a beginner's hunch and doesn't merit further discussion. But it really doesn't matter, all this speculation on my part. What matters is what's happening right at this moment through the six doors. When there is seeing, or hearing, there is no Phil with his interminable mini-dramas! Metta, Phil 39111 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 6:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Please help me to find sutta with: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: [...] > Every consciousness is impermanent so when a consciousness ceases we > could figuratively call that a death, but I think this sutta is speaking > in more general terms of what we mean by a lifetime of a kamma continuum > beginning with a rebirth-linking consciousness and ending with a dieing > consciousness. Even if ignorance is extinguished this body will continue > until it dies according to its kamma. By "continue" I mean continuously > arise and cease within one continuum governed by the kamma of ignorance > and craving of previous lifetimes. > > Larry Thank you Larry, I am not used to think about past cetana/kamma -> vipaka. Something good to practice :) metta, Agrios. 39113 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: test --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > test. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Do not worry. Your new address is working. I am looking forward to reading your posts with new address. With Metta, Htoo Naing 39114 From: Hugo Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhu Khantipalo: Practical advice for Meditators (or newcomers to Buddhism) Hello Ken, On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:19:54 -0000, kenhowardau wrote: > Thanks, I like that. In a moment when the cetasika, insight (samma- > ditthi) arises, there is always the supporting cetasika, right > concentration (samma-samadhi). Strong insight has strong samadhi and > weak insight has weak samadhi. Sometimes, there can be the right > (kusala) kind of samadhi but no insight at all, and sometimes there > can be samadhi that is just plain wrong (akusala). > > The rest of your post, I am not so sure about. I think it departs > from the teaching of absolute, momentary, reality. The Buddha > discovered and taught the true nature of mind: It is a transitory, > conditioned phenomenon with the briefest possible duration (less > than a billionth of a second). >There is no 'holding it still' in the conventional sense. I agree, but in the same way I use the word "I", and you use the word "your" and the word "I", I think it is useful to use the "holding still" phrase in order to convey a message. In other words, that would be a skillful usage of the concept of self. This of course as long as you realize that there is no self, but it is only a "tool" to help you understand. We could go back to the microscope analogy, the scientists can say, "hey let's make this sample (water, or whatever) still so we can look it via the microscope, once they look through the lens, they will see that it is NOT still, there are a lot of little creatures (amoebas, bacteria, etc.) moving around, then they will grab one of them and make it "still", then use a more powerful microscope to watch it, they will discover that it is NOT still, there are things inside it moving too, and so on, all the way to molecules and atoms. >One of the > consequences of our worldling stubbornness is we think there can be > no right understanding until the mind has been prepared in certain > ways. Do you mean that right understanding can just POP UP without me doing ANYTHING? That would be imposible, just the fact that we are reading/listening/discussing Dhamma, we are "preparing" the mind to understand things that we didn't know before. Then, if we live a moral life, and meditate (any method), we are also "preparing" the mind. So, I think that there cannot be right understanding unless we "prepare" the mind to acquire it. >We have this conventional idea of a meditator who quietens the > mind, gets it fixed on a [permanent] object, and then (and only > then) insight can arise. I wouldn't say "then and ONLY then", I would say that it would be easier, if the mind is jumping all over the place focusing in the past, the future, here and there, at a rate of 100 things per second, it is more difficult to analize what is going on than if it was jumping at a rate of 10 things per seconds, and it would be easier if it jumped only at a rate of 1 thing per second. Once you are skillful in "watching the mind" at 1 thing per second, it will be easier to watch the mind when it is going full speed. In other words, once you are skillful at "watching the mind" while sitting on the cushion, it will be easier to watch it while you are: driving, walking, brushing your teeth, washing your hands, etc. > This kind of wrong understanding renders 99 > percent of our daily lives infertile for insight. If the practitioner thinks that ONLY while sitting on the cushion is the time to "watch the mind" then I agree with your statement. As I said in another thread, I use the cushion as a gym or training lab to improve my "watching" skill. Greetings, -- Hugo 39115 From: Hugo Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of discussion (was evil thoughts) Hello Phil, In summary I think we agree in all terms regarding discussions. In an earlier post I made some comments regarding it, but I will try to repeat my comments here to give continuity to your post. On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:28:31 +0900, plnao wrote: > I'm not so sure about this. I think there is much more danger of fabricating > theories > if we read suttas on our own, and reflect on them in isolation, without > discussing. It all depends on your personal skill and the skill of the people you are discussing with. Also, it depends on the "group psychology" that is playing on that specific group at that specific time. People tend to "support" their "friends" sometimes subconsciously. Once you have convinced certain key people, or the majority, it is easier to convince the rest, or in other words, it is easier to move masses than to move individuals. > The Buddha taught that the > company of "admirable friends" is one of the four factors of stream-entry - > in fact it's > the first one that he mentions. If we discuss with good friends, they help > us to see > the errors of our views. Now, how do we know they are "admirable?" That's > another question. Exactly!! So, as long as the discussion is skillful I think it is great. > Of course we should read the theories on our own, and reflect on them before > discussing. I guess > that's what James meant. Otherwise he and you and anyone else who agrees > with the above > statement wouldn't be posting here. Exactly!!!! I didn't join any discussion group on Buddhism until I had read and practiced at least enough to know and understand what people was talking about. > > My personal opinion is that if a discussion is getting too far from > > the facts (whatever is considered the "facts", e.g. the suttas), or if > > either part of the discussion don't "know enough", then in starts to > > be "mental fabrications" and it will lead us to wrong view, wrong > > action, etc. so I prefer to stop the discussion. > > Phil: You can also help people out. I am not saying that you should not help, I said that if the discussion becomes too much "I think", "I imagine", "I suspect", "I am not sure", "I wish", "what if", then it is probably going too far from the facts and getting into the imaginary. Sometimes a certain dose of imaginary thinking is useful, but watch out. > Phil: I think we might quickly assume that questions are in the final class > and give up on them, when in fact with a bit of generous effort > we would see that it is in the second or third class. And help people out > with a response. I agree, but see what I said above. > > Plus, there is the side-effect of the newcomers reading that false > > Dhamma (yes, I know "false Dhamma" is an oxymoron, but I am trying to > > make a point) and think that it is Dhamma. > > Phil: So how does sitting on the sidelines help them? There is a saying, let me try to translate it: "Of much help is that who doesn't get in the way". So, sometimes just by NOT interferring you are helping enough! (actually I think I have read this in different Buddhists books). Another danger is that when you help other people, you might reinforce your wrong theories, and when you see that the other people accept it and think they are true you get double reinforcement. > All middle way, of course. Exactly! Discuss, yes, but in balance with reading/listening, meditating, upholding virtues, etc. So as I said, I think we agree regarding the topic of dicussion. -- Hugo 39116 From: Hugo Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 7:29am Subject: Re: typo Re: [dsg] Value of discussion (was evil thoughts) On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:31:47 +0900, plnao wrote: > > Hi Hugh, and all > > > Of course we should read the theories on our own, and reflect on them > before > > discussing. > > revealing typo. My mind leaps so quickly to theorize about suttas that the > above > might as well be left as it is! Don't worry, I got the idea, and I replied accordingly. -- Hugo 39117 From: nina Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:05am Subject: foundation web links Dear Sarah, In India I received addresses of the Foundation web. I am not sure about the exact addresses, and if possible, would you make links, please? I think others may like to know too. Buddha Dhamma Org. Dhammahome.com Dhammastudyandsupport.com The last one is of the Bay area. Thank you for the trouble, Nina. 39118 From: nina Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 61 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (h) Dear Htoo, op 30-11-2004 19:40 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Is that Venerable Ananda? N: Yes. Paramatthajotikaa, Atthakatha to Khuddakapaa.tha, V, Mangalasutta. >> Co to Minor Readings, V, the Good Omen Discourse: >> <...Now my energy is over-exerted and so my cognizance tends to > agitation. I >> shall therefore see to balancing my energy...> >> He was going to take a rest. His feet had left the floor, but his > head had >> not reached the pillow. in that interval he became an arahat. >> Nina. P.S. Thanks for your kind encouragement re testmail. 39119 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna/Ken O Hi Larry, Ken, Howard, Yahoo did not deliver this email I wrote first: op 30-11-2004 15:32 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...:> >> Ken O > Hi Ken, > > I've been thinking about your objection and this is what I have come > up with. Avijja is the ignorance of not knowing and the first link in > dependent arising. This ignorance IS sanna. N: Ignorance is a cetasika different from sañña which is one of the seven universals, arising with each citta. This is based on the Abhidhamma. L: Sanna always makes a > mistake, is always misknowledge, and is what perceives permanence. N: Only sañña arising with wrong view, akusala sañña, not evey kind of sañña. L: Moha is the ignorance of doubt. N: Moha is ignorance of realities, of kusala, of akusala, of nama and rupa. L: I have to say, with some considerable trepidation, the Buddha is > simply wrong when he says dependent on feeling craving arises. He > should have said dependent on perception craving arises. N: See Howard's mail. I think the D.O. is very complicated and there are many aspects to it. Not always all links are mentioned everywhere. The Omniscient Buddha had countless methods to explain the Truth, and there never is any contradiction. If there are things we do not understand we are wrong, we have the latent tendencies of ignorance and wrong view and we do not even realize this. We may be led by what we believe is our experience, but we have to be so careful. I think it really helps to consider very carefully the Tipitaka and Co. first of all. We can so easily be wrong. Now follows a second mail. op 01-12-2004 03:57 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Yes, it is a higher level sa~n~na. But it isn't quite right to say > that sa~n~na is avijja itself. It is *infected* by avijja. In fact, I see > *all* > the links of D.O. as infected by avijja. N: Right, sañña is infected by avijja, also by other akusala cetasikas it arises together with. Citta and cetasikas condition one another by way of conascence, mutuality, association, etc. Each moment of sañña is different. > Howard: > This is much the point I made in all my "strange" writings about D.O. > In an arahant, the unraveling phase of D.O. has occured, and the > ignorance-conditioned links are all done and gone. An arahant recognizes, but > recognizes > correctly, with no distortion. That is no longer the same sa~n~na. N: We have to think of DO in reverse, the arahat is freed. L: Sanna is like a naive, simple, child. When you look at a tree you see > a whole tree and a permanent tree. This is sanna at work. N: Right. You think of the moneychanger! There is attaa-sañña, wrong remembrance of self, it sees a whole. Or: wrong remembrance when we think of the whole posture, we think of I who is sitting, don't we often? When pañña is developed there can be anattaa-saññaa. It ir right remembrance of anatta. Nina. 39120 From: nina Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:05am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 119,120 Visuddhimagga XIV, 119,120 Vis. XIV, 119. (j) Because of the words 'Mind-element having arisen and ceased, also, next to that there arises consciousness, mind, mentation ... which is appropriate mind-element' (Vbh.89), [48] then resultant mind-consciousness-element without root-cause arises 'investigating' the same objective field as that received by mind-element. N: After the mind-element, mano-dhaatu, in this case the vipaakacitta that is receiving-consciousness, the mind-consciousness-element that is the investigating-consciousness arises. This is also vipaakacitta. Text Vis: When next to (55) unprofitable-resultant mind-element it is (56) unprofitable-resultant, and when next to (39) profitable-resultant [mind-element] it is either (40) accompanied by joy in the case of a desirable object, or (41)accompanied by equanimity in the case of a desirable-neutral object. N: When the investigating-consciousness succeeds the receiving-consciousness which is akusala vipaaka, it is also akusala vipaaka, since it is produced by the same akusala kamma that produced the sense-cognition (seeing etc.) that is akusala vipaaka. When the investigating-consciousness succeeds the receiving-consciousness which is kusala vipaaka, it is also kusala vipaaka, but in that case it is accompanied by pleasant feeling when the object is very desirable, or by indifferent feeling, when the object is moderately desirable. Therefore, there are two types of investigating-consciousness which are kusala vipaaka. Text Vis. : This is how the occurrence of three kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as investigating. ------------------------ Note 48. See Ch. IV, note 13. N: The translator explains that the nucleus of process cittas is present in the Suttanta, but not the details. These we find partly in the Conditional Relations (Patthana), in the Book of Analysis, in the Path of Discrimination, and in extenso in the Commentaries. -------------------------- Vis: XIV, 120. (k) Next to investigation, (71) functional mind-consciousness-element without root-cause arises accompanied by equanimity 'determining' that same objective field. This is how occurrence of one kind of resultant consciousness should be understood as determining. N: The investigation-consciousness is succeeded by the determining-consciousness, votthapana-citta, which determines or defines the object. It carefully notes the object. As we have seen, this is the mind-door adverting-consciousness which performs the function of determining in a sense-door process. This citta which is neither cause nor result but an inoperative citta, an ahetuka kiriya citta, determines whether it will be succeeded by akusala cittas or by kusala cittas. We should know that determining is not the same as what we mean by determining or deciding in conventional sense. This is only one extremely short moment of ahetuka kiriyacitta that performs its function in a process of cittas. There is no one who decides, it depends on accumulations whether it will be followed by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. **** Nina 39121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN III - 100 mental misconduct vs. thoughts of ill-will Hello Phil, op 01-12-2004 00:33 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on > heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware > & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. > When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: ....(Snip) > A bit puzzled by the Buddha's examples of subtle defilements above. > Thoughts of caste, home district, not wanting to be despised seem fairly > crude.. They are the the aspects of the eight worldly concerns that seem > easiest to abandon. Concerns with pain and pleasure are the very subtle > ones, I would have thought. N:This refers to conceit that can only be eradicated by the arahat. Nina. 39122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dear Rob K and Phil, I can't help feeling so delighted every time I read this quote about the elements: op 01-12-2004 02:20 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > "Because the >> functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of >> continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: >> 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a >> deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has >> to be taken while the deed is being performed to its >> completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas >> 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four >> imaginary characteristic functions of being have >> bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. >> But the elements have not the time or span of duration >> to carry out such functions" . N: This is so good to rmeember when we study the process cittas of the Visuddhimagga! >> Phil: So yes, there is delusion when we think "I can >> perform." It is all elements. N: Good to take action, abstain from akusala, perform lots and lots of good deeds, but at the same time remembering: it is all elements. It is not so complicated, no controversies. If you had not heard the Dhamma you would not know about kusala and akusala. Appreciating Rob's reminders: R: Delusion is much deeper than when we think "I can perfom". The > khandhas really have fallen away, even before we know it. That is > why the Dhamma is so gradual and why the Buddha even considered not > to teach it. > Watch out for subtle ways selfview distorts practice, that is a > signpost. Nina. 39123 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi, i think the dissection of a smile is OK to examine if that is the goal. Everything Htoo is saying ishappening is certainly happening. But when it comes to applicable Dhamma in life, and what is produced through learning how a smile can change everything around you, going out there and doing it seems more useful to life here and now. SO if I want to break down an angry situation very fast, I inject a smile as Hugo says, it works to immediately diffuse the situation. If a tree has fallen on my head and I am having a lot of fear happening and pain arising, I bring up a smile and it carries me itno observation mode of what is actually really happening and I lighten up relaxing muscles immediately helping the situation. If I am in a bus and people are afraid cause two men are about to fight, I smile at the men and they break down their anger and it immediately changes the situation as I bring up how hard life is in the morning on a crowed bus in the cold of winter. If in the line at the super market and the mother in front of youis struggling with an unweildy child while she is struggling to empty her basket out to the cashier, I jusmp in with a mile and the attention of the child is in my smile now and the situation calms all around me and the child stops crying. Being up the smile. Use the smile. Bring it up from your wholesome mind, be in you hearts, in your eyes and put it on your lips just a little child does and you all, once upon a time, innocently did too.. But for goodness sake, don't leave it behind you in life. It is cheap and it is simple and it can change the world around you instantly to a more wholesome environment. SO dont' be afraid to SMILE today. Try it. (SMILE) At the same time as you feel these smiles moving the mind into a lighter position as you apply them releasing endorphines which help everything, consider investigating what happens when you take a lighter mind into a meditation session ... things change and it might be interesting to try this and to see what happens. A smile must be sincere to help in meditation as described above. An requested appearance on the outside doesn't help anything change on the inside unless it is sincere. This is important to remember. So if you do try this, let it come from your heart, your mind, your lips and ever so slightly on your face. Much Metta. KK 39124 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 61 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (h) Dear Nina, Once I read about that. That is Venerable Ananda attain arahatship before lying and no more in sitting position. I think someone also wrote at certain group about Ananda's attainment and balance. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 30-11-2004 19:40 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > > Is that Venerable Ananda? > N: Yes. Paramatthajotikaa, Atthakatha to Khuddakapaa.tha, V, Mangalasutta. > >> Co to Minor Readings, V, the Good Omen Discourse: > >> <...Now my energy is over-exerted and so my cognizance tends to > > agitation. I > >> shall therefore see to balancing my energy...> > >> He was going to take a rest. His feet had left the floor, but his > > head had > >> not reached the pillow. in that interval he became an arahat. > >> Nina. > P.S. Thanks for your kind encouragement re testmail. 39125 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Dear Hugo, I thought your espose on Anger Management was a beautiful example of the foru exertions. Thanks. It was inspiring to me to see it so well put. What you are demonstrating is also a good example of the Three characteristics of Anicca Dukkha and Anatta here. In putting on the smile you get to actually observe the dissolving and passing away of the Anger. (Anicca/Impermanence) By seeing the sensations in the body and mind of the arising painful Feeling and how it affects you and how the Craving grabbed you ( I don't like this at all ! ) and the Clinging might have started in ( I don't like this beacause and the story flys through the mind.... and) would evolve into the Being ( which is the re-action you used to have to whatever the situation is if it feels the same a soemthing previously coming up...from your memory before...) SO what you are doing is witnessing the occurance of the Dukkha/Suffering as it happens and you DO see it clearly SO When you apply Volition ( free will/choice) you Smile and you are actually letting go of what you have taken to be personal and stepped back into an impersonal perspective, even laughing, at being caught by the "feeling" of Anger and seeing for what it is which is just an impersonal feeling within a process that is occuring. You are seeing the (Anatta/Impersonal nature of the experience for yourself. Can you see this? Did I put it clearly enough to see? So you have, in fact followed Ken's advice too by stickingn to discovering and entirely understanding the Three Characteristics of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta within each of these individual experiences. This is so great to see, isn't it? Much Metta. KK Hugo wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:18:15 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > Hugo,it is good to read about your philosophical matters of > philosophers. But I do not believe these are Dhamma. I know that when I feel angry or upset, and force myself to smile, the anger diminishes or dissappears. I know that when I asked my wife to do the same one day she was angry at something (don't remember what), the same happened. That's what I know. Anger is one of the three poisons, when anger arises, this "forced smile" method makes it "go away", "diminish", "not flourish", "not make me do unskillful acts", use whatever phrase you think is proper. If the relationship of the above with the Buddha Dhamma is still not obvious, let me quote: There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right exertions. Just as the River Ganges flows to the east, slopes to the east, inclines to the east, in the same way when a monk develops & pursues the four right exertions, he flows to Unbinding, slopes to Unbinding, inclines to Unbinding. -- SN XLIX.1 Also: And what is the exertion to abandon? There is the case where a monk does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen [in him]. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence. He does not acquiesce to a thought of ill will... a thought of harmfulness... any evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen [in him]. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, wipes them out of existence. This is called the exertion to abandon. -- AN IV.14 More quotes at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2c.html > If there is no wisdom or panna one even cannot distinguish between > akusala and kusala smile. I am not interested in distinguishing anything, Paul Ekman is, not me. I am not analizing the smile per se in "me" or in any "other", I don't care how the smile looks or how it is produced. I am interested in "abandoning" the angry state. -- Hugo 39126 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 9:13am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dear Hugo, Ken and Htoo, I agree with Hugo that the most important thing here is the applicable reduction of suffering that can be found through actually practicing the Dhamma in life. Most of us would agree to this I think. Also, the balance of approach to study has been presented here often and this is an example of it. The Buddha encouraged us to approach our studies of the Dhamma through three "P" words is pali. Help me out here please Htoo? Para--- etc. etc. The Buddha impressed on us the importance of combined approach not separated and left hints all over theplace int he texts for us to do this in order to reach full understadning. So reading texts/Listening to them being read, doing the meditation, and developing knowledge for full undrestanding is what was undertaken back in the time of the Buddha. This thread is an example of how we should look for the balnce of the three approaches and the living result and not try to hold one up as more important than another, don't you agree? Much Metta. KK 39127 From: Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 4:53am Subject: A Gift of Smile Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi, KK - In a message dated 12/1/04 11:44:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, khantikhema@y... writes: > Hi, > i think the dissection of a smile is OK to examine if that is the goal. > Everything Htoo is saying ishappening is certainly happening. > > But when it comes to applicable Dhamma in life, and what is produced through > learning how a smile can change everything around you, going out there and > doing it seems more useful to life here and now. SO if I want to break down an > angry situation very fast, I inject a smile as Hugo says, it works to > immediately diffuse the situation. If a tree has fallen on my head and I am having > a lot of fear happening and pain arising, I bring up a smile and it carries > me itno observation mode of what is actually really happening and I lighten > up relaxing muscles immediately helping the situation. > If I am in a bus and people are afraid cause two men are about to fight, I > smile at the men and they break down their anger and it immediately changes > the situation as I bring up how hard life is in the morning on a crowed bus in > the cold of winter. > If in the line at the super market and the mother in front of youis > struggling with an unweildy child while she is struggling to empty her basket out to > the cashier, I jusmp in with a mile and the attention of the child is in my > smile now and the situation calms all around me and the child stops crying. > Being up the smile. > Use the smile. > Bring it up from your wholesome mind, be in you hearts, in your eyes and > put it on your lips just a little child does and you all, once upon a time, > innocently did too.. But for goodness sake, don't leave it behind you in life. > It is cheap and it is simple and it can change the world around you instantly > to a more wholesome environment. SO dont' be afraid to SMILE today. Try it. > > (SMILE) > > At the same time as you feel these smiles moving the mind into a lighter > position as you apply them releasing endorphines which help everything, > consider investigating what happens when you take a lighter mind into a meditation > session ... things change and it might be interesting to try this and to see > what happens. > > A smile must be sincere to help in meditation as described above. An > requested appearance on the outside doesn't help anything change on the inside > unless it is sincere. This is important to remember. So if you do try this, let it > come from your heart, your mind, your lips and ever so slightly on your > face. > > Much Metta. > > KK > ========================= STORY OF A SMILE: (Note: Neither my wife nor I are or ever were Christian.) My wife and I live in a suburb of N.Y. City. A number of years ago, Cardinal O'Connor, the Archbishop of New York, and a man we greatly admired, was terminally ill with cancer. He had not been seen publically by anyone, at St Patrick's Cathedral or elsewhere, for several weeks. One afternoon, my wife and I were heading uptown in Manhattan, going to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, I believe. We were riding up the street (I forget the name) one block east of 5th Avenue. (St Patricks in on 5th Avenue). In the left lane, at 51st or 52nd Street we were stopped in heavy traffic that had ground to a halt. For some reason, I turned to look over my left shoulder. There I saw a small-to-medium building similar in appearance to St Patrick's - sort of a miniturized version and apparently a residence of sorts. The two church-like doors then opened, and three men walked out and down a few steps towards a waiting limosine. I whispered urgently to my wife to look. The man on the left was a young priest. The man on the right was an older, taller man in a business suit. The man in the middle, supported by the others was Cardinal O'Connor. For both my wife and myself, time seemed to stand still. We each entered a state-of-mind that seemed "out of time". As we watched, we saw Cardinal O'Connor, no further than 10 feet from us, wince in pain. Immediately, then, glancing upwards, he looked intently and directly at us ... and he smiled. The smile seemed to "light up the world"! Then he entered the limosine, traffic started moving again - time started moving again! It was over. The Cardinal died within the week. This was an experience for us that will always remain a mystery and will never leave us - most especially that gift of smile. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39128 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi KK The balance approach to dhamma is 8NT. What is not in the 8NT when we follow does not bring to an end of suffering. Lets not try new things like smiling just because others think it is right. If Buddha thinks it is right, then it is right. Other than that, what we think this is call correct practise is just our own inclination to believe. Ken O 39129 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:23am Subject: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dear Ken O, A sharp mind. I do not think the text says that. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi KK > > The balance approach to dhamma is 8NT. What is not in the 8NT when we > follow does not bring to an end of suffering. Lets not try new > things like smiling just because others think it is right. If > Buddha thinks it is right, then it is right. Other than that, what > we think this is call correct practise is just our own inclination to > believe. > > > > > Ken O 39130 From: Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/1/04 1:20:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi KK > > The balance approach to dhamma is 8NT. What is not in the 8NT when we > follow does not bring to an end of suffering. Lets not try new > things like smiling just because others think it is right. If > Buddha thinks it is right, then it is right. Other than that, what > we think this is call correct practise is just our own inclination to > believe. > ====================== Sounds good! The Buddha smiled, but as for his followers, well, glum Buddhists are good Buddhist! ;-)) Er, excuse me. I mean :-(( With melancholy metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39131 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dhamma Greetings Ken O, Do you understand that the critical mind is a part of dosa? There is no need to be nasty! Just because you don't understand how soemthing can be of benefit doesn't mean that it is not of benefit. Please lighten up! Bhante Vimalaramsi 39132 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dhamma Greetings Howard, I guess by what Ken O says we are supposed to walk around being grumpy and say that this is the Buddha's teachings, Heh? But why did the Buddha say in the Dhammapada we are the happy ones? Interesting perspective. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 39133 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 11:01am Subject: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dear Ken O, Howard, KK and All, Smile smile smile while impending die Kind kind kind while implanting mind tie tie tie while incoming wild mind mind mind while you find it as it binds Htoo Naing Smile all the time until you die and implant a good and kind mind. While incoming events are wild ones calm down and tie your mind to purity. Please be careful and mind that the binding of tanha is so strong and if you find this just mind it and it would not come again for ever. Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 12/1/04 1:20:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > Hi KK > > > > The balance approach to dhamma is 8NT. What is not in the 8NT when we > > follow does not bring to an end of suffering. Lets not try new > > things like smiling just because others think it is right. If > > Buddha thinks it is right, then it is right. Other than that, what > > we think this is call correct practise is just our own inclination to > > believe. > > > ====================== > Sounds good! The Buddha smiled, but as for his followers, well, glum > Buddhists are good Buddhist! ;-)) > Er, excuse me. I mean :-(( > > With melancholy metta, > Howard > 39134 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: A Gift of Smile Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Dhamma Greetings Howard, Thanks for the story, nice! Thanks. I have read many articles about what happens in one's body when they smile, like the endorphines release and this causes pain in the body to diminish. And when one is meditating and joy arises the light happy feeling comes from the endorphines released. There is always a feeling of tranquility after the joy fades away and this is the effect of the endorphines, too. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 39135 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What means 'no control' ? And band-aids Dear Joop, op 01-12-2004 14:14 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: quotes; Nina: This is frightening, isn't it? They are dormant in each citta, > they do not arise with the akusala citta, and thus we cannot say they > fall away. They condition the arising of akusala citta. … by > developing understanding of the eightfold Path, these latent > tendencies wear away. > > Joop > No, it's not frightening. I know I had to do work on the roots of > desire, hate and delusion, and developing understanding, in insight > meditation and in daily life, is good for that work. > Still in my (primitive) intuition it is a kind of atta-belief, to > think that 'things' like dispositions are more or less permanent. N: Not permanent, they change because new tendencies are added to them when akusala citta arises, and also, when understanding is developed they wear away. As to your words, I know I had to do work on the roots of > desire, hate and delusion, I just had a very good and simple text for our Pali lesson from John Kelly: N: we have to go to the roots, by developing understanding. > > J: >my main question still is: it still also the case for animals ? > Nina: Ken O explained, animals do not have the capacity to develop > understanding. Take the Bodhisatta's horse Kanthaka who was so sad to > have to return to the palace. But he was reborn a deva, and he could > then listen to the Dhamma. …I also feel a lot for animals. > > Joop: > I thought KenO said animals have only a little capacity to develop > understanding. So somewhere hundred thousands years ago that capacity > (that faculty) started. N: Take the former lives of the Bodhisatta, he often was a wise animal, but he was exceptional. He referred to himself in these lives, and why should he talk fairy tales? Also we ourselves must have been animals in former lives. Many different accumulations in different lives. J: What to say on the story of that horse ? I like fairy tales but I > don't really think Kanthaka could (as a deva) listen to the Dhamma: > does a deva have ears and who's talking, N: We read in many suttas about Devas. They have ears, yes. They can discuss Dhamma. They listened to the Buddha and visited him. But you do not have to believe in them. Devas can listen and attain enlightenment in deva planes. (snip) ... Here is a sutta. If you do not believe in devas, you can still appreciate the lesson. As you say, what matters are paramattha dhammas. SN II, 6(6) "Kamada" At Savatthi. Standing to one side, the young deva Kamada said to the Blessed One: "Hard to do, Blessed One! Very hard to do, Blessed One" 149 "They do even what is hard to do, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "The trainees endowed with virtue, steadfast. For one who has entered the homeless life Contentment brings along happiness." "That is hard to gain, Blessed One, namely contentment." "They gain even what is hard to gain, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "Who delight in calming the mind, Whose minds, day and night, Take delight in development." "That is hard to concentrate, Blessed One, namely, the mind." "They concentrate even what is hard to concentrate, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "Who delight in calming the faculties. Having cut through the net of Death, The noble ones, O Kamada, go their way." "The path is impassable and uneven, Blessed One."150 "Though the path is impassable and uneven, The noble ones walk it, Kamada. The ignoble ones fall down head first, Right there on the uneven path, But the path of the noble ones is even, For the noble are even amidst the uneven." Nina. Nina. 39136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death Dear Christine and Htoo, op 01-12-2004 12:00 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:> > It is better to contemplate death at each action. > 'Daily' is still vague. > > I am sitting. I may die before standing. I am typing. I may die > before I finish. My arms are bended. I may die before they are > stretched out. N: And I think it is beneficial to contemplate death of each citta, momentary death! The seeing has fallen away completely when there is hearing. There were other cittas arising in processes betwen them and also there had to be bhavangacittas, otherwise seeing and hearing would be mixed, but they are completely separated. It does not seem so: it seems we are seeing and hearing at the same time. Wrong sañña. Nina. 39137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN III - 100 mental misconduct vs. thoughts of ill-will Hello Phil, op 01-12-2004 14:14 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Does that mean > the doubt, wrong view, belief in efficacy of rites and rituals that > are wiped out at stream-entry? You say you "think" this is the case. Is that > confirmed in the Bhikkhu Bodhi > commentary? N: Ken had it exactly right. The Sutta refers to the defilements eradicated at the four stages of enlightenment. B.B. has only commentarial notes. For me this is not enough, so I take to the Thai which is complete. The Co. translated into English are scarce. Sorry for your computer, we shall miss you! I wish you could afford broadband. In one second all your mail comes running in. Nina. 39138 From: Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi, Bhante (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/1/04 2:14:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > Dhamma Greetings Howard, > > I guess by what Ken O says we are supposed to walk around being grumpy > and say that this is the Buddha's teachings, Heh? But why did the Buddha > say in the Dhammapada we are the happy ones? Interesting perspective. ----------------------------------- Howard: Well, Ken's perspective is certainly far from mine, Bhante. Ken, I suppose you feel that the Dhamma, each "letter-of-the-law", is very fragile and needs protection. I'm quite certain that your intent is good and your position is well meant. But I think you are very much off the mark here. -------------------------------- > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39139 From: nina Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 0:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies. Hi Mike, sorry for delay, some Email hurdles to take. op 28-11-2004 21:37 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: >> Latent tendencies are >> accumulated in each citta, from birth to death. They are accumulated even >> in >> kusala citta. > > Could you please clarify this--are akusala tendencies accumulated even in > kusala citta? N: Yes, they lie dormant in the continuity of cittas. Thus, no break. But they do not arise, they condition the arising of akusala citta. Here is a quote from what I translated before: 39140 From: nina Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 0:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment, to Mike. Hi Mike, op 28-11-2004 21:34 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > >>Quotes N: Understanding has to be developed, not of the dhamma appearing yesterday, >> but appearing now. It has just fallen away, agreed, but its characteristic >> can be known. >> Suppose you are angry, and there is wise attention to anger. The mind with >> wise attention cannot arise at the same time as the angry mind, how could >> they occur together. But wise attention can arise just after anger has >> fallen away. > > Yes, I think this is the way it must be if we accept that delusion and > understanding can't arise at the same moment--otherwise no hope of > understanding the characteristics of akusala. N: Yes, that is clearly expressed. L:I've wondered if this is why M: the word 'sati' is used for mindfulness--a somewhat odd usage as its literal > meaning is 'memory' as I recall. N: yes there is a stem remembering, sarati. But is is not like sañña which can also be unwholesome. Sati remembers, is non-forgetful of kusala. M: One minor detail, though--I think I > remember reading that a kusala citta can't arise immediately after an > akusala citta, because of the extreme difference between them--but that a > single moment of citta taking another object must occur in between. Does > this sound familiar? N: They arise in different processes of cittas. Never in the same process, that is citta niyama, the law or natural course of the order of cittas. M: The important point to me remains, though, that sati > actually (at least sometimes) is not exactly present, but can take an object > very recently arisen at a sense-door or the mind-door. I suppose that > sa~n~naa plays a part in this? N: Sati is mindful of the characteristic that appears. Cittas are so fast, we cannot count them. We know that there is seeing now, different from thinking about what is seen, but that now has already gone. It is all in a flash. As I wrote to James, seeing could not know itself, it just sees. The hearing now, the sound now, don't you know it? We do not have to think: it is just past. Its characteristic is right there for pañña to understand. These are good points to discuss, also for me. Nina. 39141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 0:10pm Subject: Re: A Gift of Smile Hi Howard, I liked your sympathetic account of the Cardinal's smile. Nina. op 01-12-2004 18:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > we saw Cardinal O'Connor, no further than 10 feet from us, wince in pain. > Immediately, then, glancing upwards, he looked intently and directly at us ... > and he smiled. The smile seemed to "light up the world"! Then he entered the > limosine, traffic started moving again - time started moving again! It was > over. > The Cardinal died within the week. > This was an experience for us that will always remain a mystery and > will never leave us - most especially that gift of smile. 39142 From: Hugo Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Dear KK, On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:55:38 -0800 (PST), L.A. Uberstrasse wrote: > > Dear Hugo, > I thought your espose on Anger Management was a beautiful example of the foru exertions. Thanks. > Thanks. It was inspiring to me to see it so well put. > What you are demonstrating is also a good example of the Three characteristics of Anicca Dukkha and Anatta here. > > In putting on the smile you get to actually observe the dissolving and passing away of the Anger. (Anicca/Impermanence) [...] > Can you see this? Did I put it clearly enough to see? Yes, I can see, maybe "notice" would be a better term as I don't use my eyes, but I am definitely aware of this. > So you have, in fact followed Ken's advice too by stickingn to discovering and entirely understanding the Three Characteristics of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta within each of these individual experiences. Yes. > This is so great to see, isn't it? Yes, unfortunately sometimes it is too fast, and the anger arises fully!!! -- Hugo 39143 From: Larry Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies. Hi Nina, First, in the line: ""In the section on Œbeing possessed of latent tendencies¹ the Buddha said : ¹Who is with the latent tendency of sense desire, he is possessed of it'." I assume "sense desire" is "kama raga". I am understanding this to mean desire for sense pleasure, and sense pleasure isn't a pleasant feeling that arises with sense consciousness but rather the pleasant feeling that arises with "liking" (lobha) a sense consciousness. So kama raga is actually desire for the pleasant feeling of sense desire, correct? Second, I have taken a closer look at latent tendencies and accumulations and I think we need another category for "habit". Is there such a category? Neither accumulation nor latent tendency seems to fit. It seems that latent tendency is a general tendency to act in a certain way but not specific enough to account for why one person likes sweet and another likes salt. Plus latent tendencies don't seem to account for many emotional (javana) reactions. If they did, there would be no path. Larry 39144 From: Larry Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 2:44pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 119,120 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Visuddhimagga XIV, 119,120 snip> N: The investigation-consciousness is succeeded by the > determining-consciousness, votthapana-citta, which determines or defines the > object. It carefully notes the object. As we have seen, this is the > mind-door adverting-consciousness which performs the function of determining > in a sense-door process. This citta which is neither cause nor result but an > inoperative citta, an ahetuka kiriya citta, determines whether it will be > succeeded by akusala cittas or by kusala cittas. We should know that > determining is not the same as what we mean by determining or deciding in > conventional sense. This is only one extremely short moment of ahetuka > kiriyacitta that performs its function in a process of cittas. There is no > one who decides, it depends on accumulations whether it will be followed by > kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. Hi Nina, Where does this idea of accumulations come from? The only "accumulation" I can find is the accumulated factors of volitional activity. I am understanding accumulation as the integration of the various factors involved in kamma formation. In that sense accumulation is kamma. Are you saying kamma conditions kamma by natural decisive support condition but not by kamma condition? Can panna undermine natural decisive support condition? Larry 39145 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Dear KK, Bhante V, Howard and others, Thank you for your lovely posts on smiling. On the one hand, I can see what you are all saying but I think it is unbalanced. For example, have you heard the English expression "grin and bear it", grin being a synonym of smile. This reflects my own experience that I can and do smile at times with an unwholesome mind. Am I abnormal? Not according to the psychology textbooks, one of which at hand says "in many situations in which people smile they are not expressing happiness or are probably not even feeling happy". Do you agree with this textbook observation? KK seems to me to be suggesting that we can change the world with a smile (in a manner of speaking). This reminds me of the question of to what extent, if any, can we control the prompting of consciousness in others? Sorry, but I don't think we can. At times, it may look like we are defusing a situation but who is to say that the 2 men about to fight when confronted by KK's smile are simply thinking to themselves "we need to find a dark alley where we won't be disturbed." KK may not like to think that that is happening, but who can say that it isn't? I think the Buddha's message goes far, far deeper than whether one is smiling or a "grump". And I think that believing one can control the behaviour of others by smiling is not accurate and likely to veer the mind towards eternalism and away from anatta. Am I being too harsh? Am I being coldly realistic? I'll let you be the judge of that and I promise not to take offense if you think I'm being a grump. Best wishes Andrew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L.A. Uberstrasse" wrote: > Hi, > i think the dissection of a smile is OK to examine if that is the goal. Everything Htoo is saying ishappening is certainly happening. > > But when it comes to applicable Dhamma in life, and what is produced through learning how a smile can change everything around you, going out there and doing it seems more useful to life here and now. SO if I want to break down an angry situation very fast, I inject a smile as Hugo says, it works to immediately diffuse the situation. If a tree has fallen on my head and I am having a lot of fear happening and pain arising, I bring up a smile and it carries me itno observation mode of what is actually really happening and I lighten up relaxing muscles immediately helping the situation. > If I am in a bus and people are afraid cause two men are about to fight, I smile at the men and they break down their anger and it immediately changes the situation as I bring up how hard life is in the morning on a crowed bus in the cold of winter. 39146 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of discussion (was evil thoughts) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > Hello Phil, [snip] > I am not saying that you should not help, I said that if the > discussion becomes too much "I think", "I imagine", "I suspect", "I am > not sure", "I wish", "what if", then it is probably going too far from > the facts and getting into the imaginary. > > Sometimes a certain dose of imaginary thinking is useful, but watch out. Hi Hugo Am I to conclude from the above that you experience some "thinking" that is not "imaginary"? Can you please elaborate? There is a sutta in which the Buddha encourages us to say things like "I think" and "I suspect" when we are not claiming direct knowledge. In other words, he is warning us against the dangers of imagining that we know realities that we don't. How should we conduct a Dhamma discussion then, in your opinion? Best wishes Andrew PS yes, I'm grumpy this morning. Will have to drive into town and find someone to smile at me! [big smile] 39147 From: Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 12/1/04 6:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > Dear KK, Bhante V, Howard and others, > > Thank you for your lovely posts on smiling. On the one hand, I can > see what you are all saying but I think it is unbalanced. For > example, have you heard the English expression "grin and bear it", > grin being a synonym of smile. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: The point of that expression, of course, is not to have an emotion of hatred or distress or grief and to irrelevantly smile (like a moron!), but to exert effort at turning the mind in the direction suggested by the physical gesture of smiling. -------------------------------------------- This reflects my own experience that > > I can and do smile at times with an unwholesome mind. Am I > abnormal? Not according to the psychology textbooks, one of which at > hand says "in many situations in which people smile they are not > expressing happiness or are probably not even feeling happy". > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't doubt that at all. If it is not an instance of attempting to turn the direction of one's mind, then it is something called "inappropriate affect". Inappropriate affect is, in varying degrees, abnormal. Of course, in mild degree, we all partake of a variety of abnormalities! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- Do you > > agree with this textbook observation? KK seems to me to be > suggesting that we can change the world with a smile (in a manner of > speaking). This reminds me of the question of to what extent, if > any, can we control the prompting of consciousness in others? Sorry, > but I don't think we can. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that to a large extent we can. That's why people pay condolence calls for those in mourning. That's what comedians depend on to support themselves. And, in a darker direction, that accounts in part for the success of monsters such as Hitler. ----------------------------------------- At times, it may look like we are defusing > > a situation but who is to say that the 2 men about to fight when > confronted by KK's smile are simply thinking to themselves "we need > to find a dark alley where we won't be disturbed." KK may not like to > think that that is happening, but who can say that it isn't? I think > the Buddha's message goes far, far deeper than whether one is smiling > or a "grump". And I txink that believing one can control the > behaviour of others by smiling is not accurate and likely to veer the > mind towards eternalism and away from anatta. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It's not a matter of control. It's a matter of influence and suggestion. And this is mostly important, not with regard to influencing others, but with regard to influencing oneself. ---------------------------------------------- > Am I being too harsh? > Am I being coldly realistic? I'll let you be the judge of that and I > promise not to take offense if you think I'm being a grump. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think you are being either harsh or grumpy, but not quite realistic either. You are, in my estimation, merely emphasizing negative facts that should be considered but not made to predominate. ----------------------------------------------- > > Best wishes > Andrew > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39148 From: plnao Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi > I guess by what Ken O says we are supposed to walk around being grumpy > and say that this is the Buddha's teachings, Heh? But why did the Buddha > say in the Dhammapada we are the happy ones? Interesting perspective. Following all this talk of smiling with interest. I think your paraphrase of Ken O is a bit uncharitable. He didn't say we should be grumpy. I imagine the Buddha said that we are the happy ones because we are following his path to liberation, not because we are cheerful all the time! On the other hand, there *is* the sutta in Samyutta Nikaya in which the devas wonder why the monks are so serene, so radiant. It is because they don't think of the future, or the past. They live on the present. (SN I 9, if I'm not mistaken.) Do they smile because they do so intentionally? Is there any other sutta in which the Buddha says that monks do so? I join Ken O (and others, I imagine) in wanting to know if there is such a teaching, because- in my case at least- I would like like to try it if that were the case. But I won't until I know that it was the Buddha's teaching. I think smiles are much more valuable when they arise due to conditions, as they did in the story I told you about smiling after doing metta meditation, smiling without knowing it. If I had smiled intentionally it wouldn't have been such a valuable experience, in my opinion. I think of smiles as flowers that we can cultivate, but not place on our face by intention. There is a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya (III.91) in which the Buddha teaches us that we can plough the field, and water it, and do other preparatory work, but we cannot will the plants to grow. They grow due to conditions, beyond our control. That's the way I feel about smiles. I always enjoy hearing a different perspective from you and your students. Metta, Phil 39149 From: plnao Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN III - 100 mental misconduct vs. thoughts ofill-will Thanks Nina, And Ken > > Does that mean > > the doubt, wrong view, belief in efficacy of rites and rituals that > > are wiped out at stream-entry? You say you "think" this is the case. Is that > > confirmed in the Bhikkhu Bodhi > > commentary? > N: Ken had it exactly right. The Sutta refers to the defilements eradicated > at the four stages of enlightenment. I learned this from you before, didn't I? I takes such a long time for Dhamma to soak into the hard ground of my brain. Thanks again, Ken. > B.B. has only commentarial notes. For me this is not enough, so I take to > the Thai which is complete. The Co. translated into English are scarce. O.K. I'll ask for your (and the group's) guidance if there are any suttas which seem especially important. Well, I guess they all are in MN. > Sorry for your computer, we shall miss you! I wish you could afford > broadband. In one second all your mail comes running in. It's not dead yet! But we'll see how long it lasts. I do have broadband. I half deplore the day it came into our lives. My internet time used to be limited to 10 hours a month. I was doing a lot more writing in those days - maybe a coincidence. Conditions, conditions... Metta, Phil 39150 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies. Hi Mike, sorry for delay, some Email hurdles to take. op 28-11-2004 21:37 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Could you please clarify this--are akusala tendencies accumulated even in > kusala citta? N: Yes, they lie dormant in the continuity of cittas. Thus, no break. But they do not arise, they condition the arising of akusala citta. Thanks Nina, my understanding was that they are 'passed along' from citta to citta, including kusala cittas of course. But other than those 'inherited' from past cittas, kusala cittas don't accumulate new akusala do they? Thanks for you translation but I don't think it answered this question. mike p.s. Do let me know if I can help any more with your email. 39152 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi Howard I've interspersed a few comments and questions below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Andrew - > > In a message dated 12/1/04 6:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > athel60@t... writes: > > > Dear KK, Bhante V, Howard and others, > > > > Thank you for your lovely posts on smiling. On the one hand, I can > > see what you are all saying but I think it is unbalanced. For > > example, have you heard the English expression "grin and bear it", > > grin being a synonym of smile. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The point of that expression, of course, is not to have an emotion of > hatred or distress or grief and to irrelevantly smile (like a moron!), but to > exert effort at turning the mind in the direction suggested by the physical > gesture of smiling. Andrew: That's the point of the expression if read prescriptively. It can also be used descriptively eg. "when such and such happens, I just tend to grin and bear it." Don't forget the descriptive aspect, Howard! (-: > -------------------------------------------- > This reflects my own experience that > > > I can and do smile at times with an unwholesome mind. Am I > > abnormal? Not according to the psychology textbooks, one of which at > > hand says "in many situations in which people smile they are not > > expressing happiness or are probably not even feeling happy". > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't doubt that at all. If it is not an instance of attempting to > turn the direction of one's mind, then it is something called "inappropriate > affect". Inappropriate affect is, in varying degrees, abnormal. Of course, in > mild degree, we all partake of a variety of abnormalities! ;-) Andrew: That psychology textbook also says that pain can be a cause of smiling. Might this not be one explanation for the cardinal's smile as he was being helped down the stairs, presumably on to hospital? > ----------------------------------------------- > Do you > > > agree with this textbook observation? KK seems to me to be > > suggesting that we can change the world with a smile (in a manner of > > speaking). This reminds me of the question of to what extent, if > > any, can we control the prompting of consciousness in others? Sorry, > > but I don't think we can. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I think that to a large extent we can. That's why people pay > condolence calls for those in mourning. That's what comedians depend on to support > themselves. And, in a darker direction, that accounts in part for the success of > monsters such as Hitler. > ----------------------------------------- > > At times, it may look like we are defusing > > > a situation but who is to say that the 2 men about to fight when > > confronted by KK's smile are simply thinking to themselves "we need > > to find a dark alley where we won't be disturbed." KK may not like to > > think that that is happening, but who can say that it isn't? I think > > the Buddha's message goes far, far deeper than whether one is smiling > > or a "grump". And I think that believing one can control the > > behaviour of others by smiling is not accurate and likely to veer the > > mind towards eternalism and away from anatta. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It's not a matter of control. It's a matter of influence and > suggestion. And this is mostly important, not with regard to influencing others, but > with regard to influencing oneself. Andrew: Howard, do you claim to be able to intentionally influence the *direction* of another's consciousness? > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > Am I being too harsh? > > Am I being coldly realistic? I'll let you be the judge of that and I > > promise not to take offense if you think I'm being a grump. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't think you are being either harsh or grumpy, but not quite > realistic either. You are, in my estimation, merely emphasizing negative facts > that should be considered but not made to predominate. Andrew: Sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that (true) negative facts shouldn't be allowed to predominate over positive ones? That's a recipe for imbalance, isn't it? Best wishes Andrew 39153 From: plnao Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death Hi Christine, and all Yesterday I was walking in the park and saw two pairs of women, one pair relatively young, one quite old. And I thought, well, look how similar they are in the way they are talking in pairs, holding similar bags, but one pair is so much older. Saw them in a crude way as messengers like the Buddha saw on his first ride around the block that day. This happens all the time. But then noticed that while the younger women had been talking about shopping, about something being expensive, deploring it, the old women were looking in a very intent, delighted way at the autumn leaves, and sharing their joy in the moment, observing how the leaves looked much more vibrant when backlit than from the side on which the sun was hitting. The older women were much younger, in terms of the kind of childlike curiosity that was arising, and the younger women were all caught up in material concerns despite being in the park on a lovely day. This made me think that it is the quality, if you will, of the nama, of the mental moments that are arising that is more important than the chronological age of people. And that these mental moments, this name, rises and falls, rises and falls, due to conditions. And that maybe consideration of death in the context of the rising and falling of these mental moments is a consideration of death that the Buddha didn't have on his first chariot ride when he saw the old and the sick and the dead, but which arose later, and was more important for his (and our liberation.) This is nothing new to anyone here, of course. We know that there is birth and death all the time, with every citta. And it's certainly easy enough to talk about that when I'm not dealing at this moment with the death of a loved one, etc. BTW, when you see Azita next, please pass on my fond regards and wish her a speedy recovery. She's fab! Metta, Phil > > I am reading a book called "Who Dies?" by Stephen and Ondrea Levine - 39154 From: Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 12/1/04 8:13:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > > Hi Howard > > I've interspersed a few comments and questions below. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Andrew - > > > >In a message dated 12/1/04 6:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >athel60@t... writes: > > > >>Dear KK, Bhante V, Howard and others, > >> > >>Thank you for your lovely posts on smiling. On the one hand, I > can > >>see what you are all saying but I think it is unbalanced. For > >>example, have you heard the English expression "grin and bear > it", > >>grin being a synonym of smile. > >> > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The point of that expression, of course, is not to have an > emotion of > >hatred or distress or grief and to irrelevantly smile (like a > moron!), but to > >exert effort at turning the mind in the direction suggested by the > physical > >gesture of smiling. > > Andrew: That's the point of the expression if read prescriptively. > It can also be used descriptively eg. "when such and such happens, I > just tend to grin and bear it." Don't forget the descriptive aspect, > Howard! (-: > ------------------------------------------ Howard: How could I forgut with Jon, and now you, to remind me! ;-) Andrew, I don't put much stock in that "descriptive" interpretation. I don't buy it. I believe that what sounds exactly like prescription is, indeed, prescription. ----------------------------------------- > > >-------------------------------------------- > > This reflects my own experience that > > >>I can and do smile at times with an unwholesome mind. Am I > >>abnormal? Not according to the psychology textbooks, one of > which at > >>hand says "in many situations in which people smile they are not > >>expressing happiness or are probably not even feeling happy". > >> > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't doubt that at all. If it is not an instance of > attempting to > >turn the direction of one's mind, then it is something > called "inappropriate > >affect". Inappropriate affect is, in varying degrees, abnormal. Of > course, in > >mild degree, we all partake of a variety of abnormalities! ;-) > > Andrew: That psychology textbook also says that pain can be a cause > of smiling. Might this not be one explanation for the cardinal's > smile as he was being helped down the stairs, presumably on to > hospital? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I saw and understood the smile. It was a rueful, ironic smile that turned into a joyous smile. Cardinal O'Connor was an extraordinary man. The smile, BTW, had its effect. It did prompt a mental state in my wife and in me. And we will not soon forget it. ------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------- > > Do you > > >>agree with this textbook observation? KK seems to me to be > >>suggesting that we can change the world with a smile (in a manner > of > >>speaking). This reminds me of the question of to what extent, if > >>any, can we control the prompting of consciousness in others? > Sorry, > >>but I don't think we can. > >> > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > I think that to a large extent we can. That's why people pay > >condolence calls for those in mourning. That's what comedians > depend on to support > >themselves. And, in a darker direction, that accounts in part for > the success of > >monsters such as Hitler. > >----------------------------------------- > > > > At times, it may look like we are defusing > > >>a situation but who is to say that the 2 men about to fight when > >>confronted by KK's smile are simply thinking to themselves "we > need > >>to find a dark alley where we won't be disturbed." KK may not > like to > >>think that that is happening, but who can say that it isn't? I > think > >>the Buddha's message goes far, far deeper than whether one is > smiling > >>or a "grump". And I think that believing one can control the > >>behaviour of others by smiling is not accurate and likely to veer > the > >>mind towards eternalism and away from anatta. > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It's not a matter of control. It's a matter of influence and > >suggestion. And this is mostly important, not with regard to > influencing others, but > >with regard to influencing oneself. > > Andrew: Howard, do you claim to be able to intentionally influence > the *direction* of another's consciousness? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Of course I do. I intentionally attempt to induce happiness in others and to reduce suffering in them by my words, actions, gestures, and demeanor, and my attempts are not without fruit. People can and do prompt changes in others all the time. Two days ago a colleague of mine and I went to the home of the parents of a young woman, 20 or 21, who had taken her own life. We *know* that by our words and our demeanor we helped these deeply mourning people. We prompted a degree of peace in them. We know this for ourselves, and we were told afterwards by a young woman of that community (it is an ultra-orthodox jewish community) of the wonderful impact that we made, especially on the mother. ------------------------------------------- > > >---------------------------------------------- > > > > > >>Am I being too harsh? > >>Am I being coldly realistic? I'll let you be the judge of that > and I > >>promise not to take offense if you think I'm being a grump. > >> > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't think you are being either harsh or grumpy, but not > quite > >realistic either. You are, in my estimation, merely emphasizing > negative facts > >that should be considered but not made to predominate. > > Andrew: Sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that > (true) negative facts shouldn't be allowed to predominate over > positive ones? That's a recipe for imbalance, isn't it? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: If negative facts are predominant, then they predominate. If positive facts are predominant, then they predominate. I see imbalance in a viewpoint that is fearful of bringing a smile to one's face. ------------------------------------------ > > Best wishes > Andrew > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39155 From: seisen_au Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:41pm Subject: Lokuttara Satipatthana? Hi Nina and Sarah, I was under the impression that Satipatthana could be both mundane and lokuttara? It has in this the couplets section of the Vibangha (p.269)> (The four foundations of mindfulness) Are supramundane (lokuttara). Any help appreciated. Thanks Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > op 30-11-2004 11:50 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > > I believe satipatthana refers to the mundane > > path. I think we discussed this before with regard to the Satipatthana > > Sutta, but I don't have any quote handy. > N: Yes, we discussed that when studying with Larry the Satipatthana > Sutta and commentary. It is mundane. And vipassana: goes up to lokuttara. > Nina. 39156 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 9:24pm Subject: India discussions - audio version Dear Friends, As promised, the recordings of discussions from our recent trip to India have now been uploaded here: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ If you have a broadband connection and a good computer, it should be possible to listen and download. (As they take up almost the entire memory, they will be removed when we have other edited recordings to upload soonish). If you need any assistance with this, pls don't ask us as we're seriously technology challenged enough these days. Possibly try Connie, RobM, Mike or James who are all very competent with these tech matters. If you're not able to listen or download or would like a copy anyway, we'll be glad to burn an Mp3 to send out by snail-mail. We expect to be sending quite a few out, so to make our task easier, if you'd like a copy, pls send me an email off-list (sarahprocterabbott@y...) with: ***** 1. 'India MP3 request' in the subject heading 2. Just your name and full address, including COUNTRY (in CAPS), so that I can just cut and paste it onto an envelope. (Pls send it again like this even if you know I somewhere have all your details or have sent you something before) 3. If you know a friend would like a copy (and will really listen to it!!), pls give them a link to this message, so they also send the correct details etc. (and maybe join our discussions too!) 4. In lieu of notes of receipt or thanks, pls send a message to the list with any comment or quote that you found helpful, puzzling or wrong so that we can all share your listening! 5. If you haven't received your copy within a month, better let me know! ***** This is the first big step in a very large (life-time!!) project we're undertaking to edit recordings of discussions in English with K.Sujin after suggestions from her on it. There will be more recordings to come soon. (This project also involves copying all our old cassettes into digital format. If anyone has any favourite old recordings, pls let us know off-list.) Metta, Sarah p.s apologies for sounding so officious here. ======== 39157 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > Andrew: Howard, do you claim to be able to intentionally influence > > the *direction* of another's consciousness? > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Of course I do. I intentionally attempt to induce happiness in others > and to reduce suffering in them by my words, actions, gestures, and demeanor, > and my attempts are not without fruit. People can and do prompt changes in > others all the time. Hi Howard I think we are at cross-purposes. I ask: do you claim to be able to intentionally influence the direction of another's consciousness? You answer: Yes, I claim to be able TO ATTEMPT to intentionally influence the direction of another's consciousness. You have just made my point in its pristine entirety. Thank you. One attempts with no guarantee at all of consciousness movement in the desired direction. In those circumstances, "influence" is somewhat too strong a word. And what happens, when the influencee has no attention directed your way when your attempt is made? In that case, "influence" is entirely out of place. Deep is this Dhamma and difficult to comprehend! Conditionality and dependent origination. Prescription looks like prescription. A mountain lake looks like glare and hundreds of little ripples. But to the Ariyan who sees to the lake bottom .... [Exits left to suck a lemon and thereby avoid a smile] (-: Best wishes Andrew 39158 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 9:46pm Subject: Re: A Gift of Smile Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Dear Howard, Thank you so much for sharing that story with us. It really ws touching. One can only guess. So beautiful.. KK ========================= STORY OF A SMILE: (Note: Neither my wife nor I are or ever were Christian.) My wife and I live in a suburb of N.Y. City. A number of years ago, Cardinal O'Connor, the Archbishop of New York, and a man we greatly admired, was terminally ill with cancer. He had not been seen publically by anyone, at St Patrick's Cathedral or elsewhere, for several weeks. One afternoon, my wife and I were heading uptown in Manhattan, going to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, I believe. We were riding up the street (I forget the name) one block east of 5th Avenue. (St Patricks in on 5th Avenue). In the left lane, at 51st or 52nd Street we were stopped in heavy traffic that had ground to a halt. For some reason, I turned to look over my left shoulder. There I saw a small-to-medium building similar in appearance to St Patrick's - sort of a miniturized version and apparently a residence of sorts. The two church-like doors then opened, and three men walked out and down a few steps towards a waiting limosine. I whispered urgently to my wife to look. The man on the left was a young priest. The man on the right was an older, taller man in a business suit. The man in the middle, supported by the others was Cardinal O'Connor. For both my wife and myself, time seemed to stand still. We each entered a state-of-mind that seemed "out of time". As we watched, we saw Cardinal O'Connor, no further than 10 feet from us, wince in pain. Immediately, then, glancing upwards, he looked intently and directly at us ... and he smiled. The smile seemed to "light up the world"! Then he entered the limosine, traffic started moving again - time started moving again! It was over. The Cardinal died within the week. This was an experience for us that will always remain a mystery and will never leave us - most especially that gift of smile. With metta, Howard 39159 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hugo wrote: Yes, unfortunately sometimes it is too fast, and the anger arises fully!!! - >>>KK Stay light and laugh at yourself "when you get caught by the anger!" This will break the tension, immediately change the situation to one of observation/awaremness of the impersonal feeling arising, then let it go and take a look at what is really happening in the moment. Let it be a secret challenging game to see it sooner and sooner each time and let the laughter break the tension without moving forward into the birth of action..... Keep going with this.... Much metta. KK 39160 From: Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 12/2/04 12:28:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >> > >>Andrew: Howard, do you claim to be able to intentionally > influence > >>the *direction* of another's consciousness? > >> > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Of course I do. I intentionally attempt to induce happiness > in others > >and to reduce suffering in them by my words, actions, gestures, and > demeanor, > >and my attempts are not without fruit. People can and do prompt > changes in > >others all the time. > > Hi Howard > > I think we are at cross-purposes. > > I ask: do you claim to be able to intentionally influence the > direction of another's consciousness? > > You answer: Yes, I claim to be able TO ATTEMPT to intentionally > influence the direction of another's consciousness. > > You have just made my point in its pristine entirety. Thank you. > One attempts with no guarantee at all of consciousness movement in > the desired direction. In those circumstances, "influence" is > somewhat too strong a word. And what happens, when the influencee > has no attention directed your way when your attempt is made? In > that case, "influence" is entirely out of place. Deep is this Dhamma > and difficult to comprehend! Conditionality and dependent > origination. > --------------------------------------- Howard: No guarantees, that's right. Many conditions, that's right too. But people CAN influence others and do so all the time. C'mon, Andrew, you know that's so! Let's not try to score debating points. I told you about the condolence call I made the other day. That's not something unusual. People help people in many ways, and among them is in helping change their minds and perspectives. This is fact. ---------------------------------------- > > Prescription looks like prescription. A mountain lake looks like > glare and hundreds of little ripples. But to the Ariyan who sees to > the lake bottom .... > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, please. When the Buddha taught his followers to take specific actions, which he most assuredly did, that was prescription, whether one is an Ariyan or a worldling. Andrew, have you bought into the perspective that there is nothing to do and nothing to be done? The perspective that all depends on causes and conditions, but your volition and volitional actions are not *among* those conditions? Where is the appeal in such helplessness and hopelessness? If progress on the Buddhist path cannot be affected by our actions, then taking refuge and "being a Buddhist" is utter nonsense. ------------------------------------------- > > [Exits left to suck a lemon and thereby avoid a smile] (-: > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, now! So all is not lost after all! :-) -------------------------------------------- > > Best wishes > Andrew > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39161 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:19pm Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dear Phil, Ken, and other Dhamma Friends, I agree with you all that the type of smile makes the difference of how it affects the world. There is a difference between a smile placed on a face and "bringing up a smile from within". I found it interesting that so many of you assumed that Bhante and I were speaking of placing a smile on your face instead of bringing up a sincere smile to work with. I am wonering why that is. Of course and unwholsesome smile would not do well, A plastered on smile will not do well either. The smile must be sincere. What you think and ponder on, that is the inclination of your mind. So why not ponder good feelings within. Why not choose a dull day of not taking anything personally and moving ina wholesome direction, allowing yourself to exude the wholesomeness and maybe even smile just like after the Metta session but keep it going..... This is just a continuation of the wholesomeness you are trying to move towards having all the time, right? There is nothing wrong with affecting those around you with a smile. If you have never done this before, then you are missing a good part of real communication. Can't hurt to try it. Much Metta. KK plnao wrote: Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi > I guess by what Ken O says we are supposed to walk around being grumpy > and say that this is the Buddha's teachings, Heh? But why did the Buddha > say in the Dhammapada we are the happy ones? Interesting perspective. Following all this talk of smiling with interest. I think your paraphrase of Ken O is a bit uncharitable. He didn't say we should be grumpy. I imagine the Buddha said that we are the happy ones because we are following his path to liberation, not because we are cheerful all the time! On the other hand, there *is* the sutta in Samyutta Nikaya in which the devas wonder why the monks are so serene, so radiant. It is because they don't think of the future, or the past. They live on the present. (SN I 9, if I'm not mistaken.) Do they smile because they do so intentionally? Is there any other sutta in which the Buddha says that monks do so? I join Ken O (and others, I imagine) in wanting to know if there is such a teaching, because- in my case at least- I would like like to try it if that were the case. But I won't until I know that it was the Buddha's teaching. I think smiles are much more valuable when they arise due to conditions, as they did in the story I told you about smiling after doing metta meditation, smiling without knowing it. If I had smiled intentionally it wouldn't have been such a valuable experience, in my opinion. I think of smiles as flowers that we can cultivate, but not place on our face by intention. There is a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya (III.91) in which the Buddha teaches us that we can plough the field, and water it, and do other preparatory work, but we cannot will the plants to grow. They grow due to conditions, beyond our control. That's the way I feel about smiles. I always enjoy hearing a different perspective from you and your students. Metta, Phil 39162 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 11:15pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 65 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (l) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** Saññå which arises with akusala citta is also akusala. Saññå may arise together with wrong view. When one takes for permanent what is impermanent the citta with wrong view is also accompanied by saññå which remembers the object in a distorted way. It is the same when one takes for self what is not self. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Chapter V, §9, Perversions) about four perversions (vipallåsas) of saññå, citta and diììhi: *** -Monks, there are these four perversions of perception (saññå), four -perversions of thought (citta), four perversions of view (diììhi). What -four? -To hold that in the impermanent there is permanence, is a -perversion of perception, thought and view. To hold that in dukkha -there is not-dukkha, is a perversion of perception, thought and view. -To hold that in the not-self there is self, is a perversion of -perception, thought and view. To hold that in the foul there is the -fair, is aperversion of perception, thought and view. These are the four -perversions of perception, thought and view… *** So long as we have not attained to the stage of paññå which knows the impermanence of nåma and rúpa, we may still think that people and things can stay, be it for a long or a short time. Nåma and rúpa are impermanent and thus they are dukkha, they cannot be true happiness. We still take what is dukkha for happiness and we still cling to the concept of self. We also take the foul for the fair. The body is foul, it is not beautiful. However, we cling to our body and take it for something beautiful. So long as one has not attained the first stage of enlightenment, there are still the perversions of saññå, citta and diììhi. The sotåpanna, who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated diììhi, wrong view, and thus he has no more perversions which are connected with diììhi. But he has not eradicated all perversions since they are eradicated in different stages. The sotåpanna still clings to objects and therefore he can still have the perversions of citta and saññå while he takes for happiness what is not happiness and takes for beautiful what is foul. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 39163 From: plnao Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 11:36pm Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi KK, and all KK I agree with you all that the type of smile makes the difference of how it affects the world. There is a difference between a smile placed on a face and "bringing up a smile from within". I found it interesting that so many of you assumed that Bhante and I were speaking of placing a smile on your face instead of bringing up a sincere smile to work with. I am wonering why that is. Phil: That's a good point. I did jump to assumptions without deeply considering the practice that the Bhante is talking about. Sorry about that. KK Of course and unwholsesome smile would not do well, A plastered on smile will not do well either. The smile must be sincere. Phil: So I would assume that the Bhante's teaching involves letting go of the practice on days that the smile does not arise easily in a sincere way? My suspicion is that people who were beginning the practice (not the Bhante or you) would force smiles even on days that the smiles weren't arising naturally and the practice could be a wee bit painful for everyone involved. But I certainly can see that if one's daily life is rooted in Dhamma, the smiles can arise relatively easily. But not always. KK What you think and ponder on, that is the inclination of your mind. So why not ponder good feelings within. Phil: Do we want to feel good all the time, or do we want to understand the nature of our minds, both the pleasant and the not so pleasant? I just wonder if the Bhante's teaching could lead beginners to believe that the Buddha's teaching is about feeling good. (I also thought that when I read all the references to releasing tension in the other meditation practice) Of course, we do become happier and more peaceful thanks to the Buddha's teaching - if we do. If we don't, when we don't, we can see that not-feeling good for what it is. Annica, anatta, and dukkha. I think sensing the impermanence of bad moods is more liberating in the long run than practicing in order to encourage pleasant moods. My opinion. KK Why not choose a dull day of not taking anything personally and moving ina wholesome direction, allowing yourself to exude the wholesomeness and maybe even smile just like after the Metta session but keep it going..... Phil: I would finish my metta meditation and go out in a metta mood. Until conditions took over. I remember resolving to be aware of every door I went through, in order to feel metta for every person on the other side of every door. I would write in my little notebook every morning, again and again and again such resolves. And some days the practice was more effective than others. Now I think more about upekkha than metta, though I do want to dwell more fully in metta someday. In upekkha, aware to the degree that I am capable of the three characteristics, there is nothing in the other person to get angry at. I have a certain freedom from the eight worldly concerns. A certain freedom, mind you - still very limited. And when metta arises, unexpectedly, it is so encouraging. And it conditions the arising of more, though I know not when. As I said once here, I think we don't move ourselves in to the "divine abides" (Brahma Viharas) we are moved in, by conditions. If we could do it ourselves, what good would they be? It would be like that Marx Brothers movie in which Groucho says he doesn't want to belong to a club that would have someone like *him* as a member. I wouldn't think as much of the Brahma Viharas if I thought if they were mind-states that a sleazy, irritable guy like me could move in to by intentional practices! "Here's the key! Move on in." The diving abides have tenants like *me*? No thanks! When my defilements have been eradicated, the Brahma-Viharas will arise and I'll find myself living in them! That will take many, many lifetimes, in all likelihood. For now, I will be content with the moments of metta when they arise. There is metta as I'm writing to you. I didn't know there would be. I had just awoken from a nap and was feeling cranky. Now I am feeling very friendly. Metta arising due to conditions, the main one at the moment being *you* KK. Thanks! There's no doubt that we all want the same thing - we want our minds to be more prone to loving-kindness. We just disagree about the rarity of that commodity in its pure form! In most cases when Western Buddhists talk about joy, there is so much attachment, so much lobha. I think the same thing goes for metta. Again, just my opinion. KK This is just a continuation of the wholesomeness you are trying to move towards having all the time, right? Phil: Not necessarily. There can be a lot of lobha when we think about metta.. When we want metta, aren't we just attached to having calm, to feeling emotional pleasantness? That is lobha. We will be happier on the surface, but maybe the binds of self will be growing tighter. I think there is a sutta in which the Buddha, or one of his disciples, says "your sukka is my dukkha." It might seem like dukkha to be resisting ways of practice that feel good, but there can be sukka in knowing that one is on the Buddha's path to liberation, even when one feel like crap! The crap one feels like is impermanent! Knowing that is where there is wholesomeness, I think. And knowing that the happy feelings are also impermanent, conditioned. KK There is nothing wrong with affecting those around you with a smile. If you have never done this before, then you are missing a good part of real communication. Can't hurt to try it. Phil: Absolutely. I do want to go back and read the Bhante's description of his practice more carefully. Again, sorry for jumping to conclusions and suggesting that it was about plastering false smiles. That was yet another moment of foolishness. . I have a lot of anecdotes about smiles and metta - it's something I've thought about a lot- but it looks like this discussion will be going on for awhile so I will lay 'em on you all somewhere else. Metta, Phil 39164 From: plnao Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 65 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (l) Hi all > So long as we have not attained to the stage of paññå which > knows the impermanence of nåma and rúpa, we may still think > that people and things can stay, be it for a long or a short time. So every time we see a loved one, there is sanna that helps us to remember who they are, and sanna that helps us to remember how much we love them, and sanna that feeds on and on in this way, with all our attachments. Also when we see someone and remember the reasons we don't like them. So without sanna, the fires of desire and hatred would go out. Do amnesiacs therefore have less dosa and lobha than people whose memory is functioning? (I know sanna isn't memory in the conventional sense, but..) Isn't there a Harrison Ford movie in which he gets shot in the head and becomes a much more peaceful person? In Japanese, the expression "ignorance is bliss" is translated as "the Buddha is ignorance." (shiranu wa hotoke) Of course, there is also sanna with the wholesome cittas that arise with panna, that allow us to see people and things as conditioned elements. And we don't have to be cold or unloving in those moments. We just know what's going on. We don't have to get shot in the head like Harrison Ford in that movie to learn to get along with our kids and save our marriages etc! There is a better way to put the fires out. Culivating panna that sees things for what they really are. We can do it! I really feel like using exclamation points today!!! Metta, Phil 39165 From: Andrew Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi Howard More below - if you can bear it. (-: I'm sure you can! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: [snip] No guarantees, that's right. Many conditions, that's right too. But > people CAN influence others and do so all the time. C'mon, Andrew, you know > that's so! Let's not try to score debating points. I told you about the condolence > call I made the other day. That's not something unusual. People help people > in many ways, and among them is in helping change their minds and perspectives. > This is fact. Andrew: I agree with the above 3-word sentence but with one qualification attached. In fact, that qualification is the sum total of my point. My sentence reads: "This is fact WHEN IT OCCURS". When we attempt to influence others, influence doesn't *always* occur. It does sometimes/frequently/often/whatever but not "always". That's my point. Simple but I think it's a very important point because it is consistent with conditionality and anatta (where "me" influencing "you" is just a collection of "mere expressions"). > Oh, please. When the Buddha taught his followers to take specific > actions, which he most assuredly did, that was prescription, whether one is an > Ariyan or a worldling. Andrew, have you bought into the perspective that there is > nothing to do and nothing to be done? The perspective that all depends on > causes and conditions, but your volition and volitional actions are not *among* > those conditions? Where is the appeal in such helplessness and hopelessness? If > progress on the Buddhist path cannot be affected by our actions, then taking > refuge and "being a Buddhist" is utter nonsense. Andrew: The anatta doctrine lies in the middle ground between the wrong views of eternalism and annihilationism. I'm trying to get my worldling head around anatta especially how there can be volition (cetana) and action but no "actor" in the ultimate sense. As the Buddha said, it is indeed hard to comprehend. If I may be critical for a moment (in the nicest possible way), some posts on DSG seem to me to veer towards the eternalist side (with cetana as the abiding pseudo-self) and others (hi Ken H) to the annihilationist side with strong emphasis on NOW and the separateness of mind-moments. Perhaps I will write more on this later ... lots of preparation to do for the Cooran weekend. In short, no, I'm not just debating for the fun of it. I haven't dismissed the "description argument" because, even if the suttas are full of prescription, that prescription must be understood within the descriptive framework of anatta, conditionality and dependent origination. For me, the "go out and smile at the world" thesis (as pleasant and attractive as it undoubtedly is) doesn't completely fit with conditionality. And I've been brave enough to say so despite all the (friendly) jibes about being afraid to smile! (-: > > [Exits left to suck a lemon and thereby avoid a smile] (-: > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, now! So all is not lost after all! :-) > -------------------------------------------- Please don't tickle my funny bone as you *know* how much I hate to smile! (-: Over and out for the weekend! Best wishes Andrew 39166 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi Bante and Hugo and Howard I should say, smiling is not a method thought by Buddha by it can be a product of what taught by Buddha. We have to be clear, what is taught and what is the result being after doing what is taught by Buddha. If smiling is a result of kusala behaviour that is ok, but if one used smiling to condition a kusala behaviour, then we should be very careful because smiling can be conditioned by lobha. I did not one say one cannot smile but I am advising against using smile as a practise which is not found in the texts. Ken O 39167 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi Bhante If you think where I am wrong and I am not following the texts, please tell me and I am most willing to discuss with you because I learn from discussion. As I say, lets dhamma be our guide and not our own experiences Ken O 39168 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna/Ken O Hi Larry and (Howard) << Larry - I think because you think sanna in term as concept that is how you come to this conclusion. A concept can be a paccaya. But when Buddha speaks about D.O. is about reality. The mind is obsessed with concepts because of moha. Let say, take for example, like some of us like chocolate, when we see chocolate it will induced a pleasant feeling to arise due to our habitual infatuation with it (latency) and that condition cravings. But it is moha that blinds us that chocolate is real and not sanna. Sanna just help to construct the chocolate from visible object. If chocolate is taken in terms of visible object due to wise attention (seeing the three characteristics), the feeling arise maybe neutral (talking in terms of javana process) or pleasant (as kusala citta associated with panna can have neutral and pleasant feelings). >> - this is what I have written earlier but did not send to you so I have leave it as it is Lets first established whether feelings conditioned cravings. The Dispeller of Delusion, para 839 <> SN 12 Nidanasamyutta 66 (6) Exploration pg 605 <<"As he explores he understand thus: Whatever in the world has a pleasant and agreeable nature: it is here that this craving arises when it arises; it is here that it settles when it settles down.>> Give you a very detail description of ignorance Dispeller of Delusion 642. That is to say, knowledge is understanding. It (i.e. Understanding) makes known and plain the four truths with each meaning and each cause. But this ignorance when it arises does not allow that [understanding] to make that [Dhamma] known and plain; thus, because of it opposition to knowledge, it is unknowing. Also seeing is understanding. It sees quality. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to see, thus it is unseeing. Also achievement is understanding. It achieves that quality. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to achieve, thus it is non-achievement. Wakening, awakening and penetration are understanding. It wakens to that quality, awaken to it, penetrates it. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to waken to, awaken to, to penetrate to, thus it is non-wakening, non-awakening, non-penetration. Prehending is understanding. It grasps that quality by seizing and pressing. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to grasp by seizing and pressing; thus is non-prehension. Comprehending is understanding. It grasps that quality by plunging, entering into it. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to grasp by plunging and entering, thus it is non-comprehension. Consideration is understanding. It considers right that quality. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to consider rightly, thus it is non-consideration. Reflection is understanding. It reflects upon that quality. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to reflect, thus it is non-reflection. “It has nothing that is clarified and it is itself action done without reflecting” is non-clarification. Stupidity is due to the state of one who is stupid. Folly is due to the state of a fool. Clear comprehension is understanding. It understands rightly the Dhamma of the four truths with each meaning and each reason. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to understand that quality, thus it is non-clear-comprehension. Delusion is by deluding. Bewilderment is by bewildering. Confusion is by way of confusing. “It finds what should not be found” is ignorance, “It engulfs, causes to sink in the process [of existence]” is the flood of ignorance. “It yokes to the process [of existence]” is the yoke of ignorance. Because of rising again and again through not being abandoned, it is the inherent tendency to ignorance. “Like robbers that beset travellers on the road, it besets profitable consciousness, seizes it, plunders it” is the besetting of ignorance. Just as when the barrier the bar is dropped at the city gate, the exit of the people inside the city and the entry of the people outside the city is stopped, so indeed, in one in whose city-of-the-person this [ignorance] is dropped, the knowledge which is his exit is nibbana is stopped, this there is the barrier of ignorance. “That is unprofitable and it is a root-cause” or “it cause”; “that and no other is the delusion intended here” is delusion as root cause of the unprofitable” This is called ignorance characterised thus. Thus should the characteristics of ignorance be understood according to the 25 terms. Ken O 39169 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 3:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Death Dear Htoo, Nina, RobK, Phil, and all, It was while we were in India that Shakti spoke on the subject of 'death'. She told how she had been a member of a group who had decided to meet regularly and live as if they had been told they had only a year left before dying. The group worked through another of Stephen Levine's books "A Year To Live - how to live this year as if it were your last". Shakti's group has just had its final meeting, and although no member of the group died, many had friends or relatives pass away during this time. She felt it was an interesting process, well worth the effort, and says she was grateful for the group support. I was surprised at the number of the human species who die each year on this earth, almost unimaginable - 70,000,000! Still ... I thought - that's in a year, and all but one or two are no body I know. Htoo's post brought it much closer, suggesting that I "contemplate death at each action" and stating that "daily is still vague". (not as comfortably vague as 'yearly' :-)) Nina urges even more precision - saying it 'is beneficial to contemplate death of each citta, momentary death'. RobK - yes, I recall you posting about maranasati over the last couple of years. You once referred me to the Visuddhi Magga 'Mindfulness of Death' the eight ways of recollecting Death - the eighth way is "as to the shortness of the moment" ... "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow". This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment." Phil - thanks for the story of the two pairs of women. You know ... I'm not so sure I DO know that "there is birth and death all the time with every citta". I can think about this, about what I have read, or have been told - but .. I can't feel it, I can't see it. So, I don't personally 'know' the death of each citta. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 39170 From: plnao Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death Hi Christine > Phil - thanks for the story of the two pairs of women. You > know ... I'm not so sure I DO know that "there is birth and death > all the time with every citta". I can think about this, about what > I have read, or have been told - but .. I can't feel it, I can't > see it. So, I don't personally 'know' the death of each citta. Of course I don't either. I don't even know rupa from nama yet much of the time. I was just repeating the teaching. I guess, though, that we've all had moments that we've seen into the khandas, have seen into the way what we take for people are rupa and nama, in absolute terms. Really seen into that, for a moment. And then they are people again, of course, and we love them, but that moment of insight changes the way we see people for ever. There is more detachment. Not much, but more than there was. But does that finally make it any easier to deal with losing them. I wouldn't know. But I will some day very soon. Then we'll see how my talk of death of cittas stands up! I think I mentionned this before, but I have been to an internet site which features all kind of gruesome photos of accidents, murders - even the execution of those prisoners in Iraq. I know this will sound weird to some, but there was something kind of surprisingly reassuring about looking at those photos. Just elements. I really did feel that. All that rupa lying beaten and battered and mangled on the ground. I don't think Dhama glorifies nama over rupa - or does it? But all those gory photos made me want to treasure each moment more, made me want to appreciate the cultivating of nama in a wholesome way, because the rupa of the body is bound to be rotten some day, and because there is knowledge of how rotten many people's minds become as well. I guess that was the point of what I wrote about those women. Their bodies were old but they were having a lot of fun - at that moment. They were definitely not rotten! I think of what Nina wrote once in a post. The hardness of the body is no different from the hardness of a log. The Buddha told Rahula to practice like earth. The earth of our bodies, the earth of soil. But there are sublime mental states such as the Brahma-Viharas. Reflection on death maybe leads our mind in wholesome directions, elevates our minds. Thus so many people turn to religion when they fear death coming. Usually running in fear to safe refuges, to a father figure with open arms and an eternal paradise. We don't have that in Dhamma. We have to have a lot of courage and keep cultivating detachment from self, keep cultivating panna, keep cultivating Brahma-Viharas, life by life, day by day. As for death of cittas, of course you're right, we don't know yet. That's at an advanced stage of insight. I was just - I really don't like this word - parroting. Metta, Phil 39171 From: Hugo Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hello Andrew, On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:21:42 -0000, Andrew wrote: > conditionality and dependent origination. For me, the "go out and > smile at the world" thesis (as pleasant and attractive as it > undoubtedly is) doesn't completely fit with conditionality. Instead of trying to fix the world by smiling or anything else I think it is better to fix yourself (well, I know of anatta, but in this case it is useful to say "yourself"). My story is about how I fixed myself by smiling to myself! The result was that I was not angry and my family didn't suffer, so in a sense by fixing myself I fixed the world around me. A lot of effort is placed by many people to "fix what is wrong with the world", if instead of spending time in trying to fix the world they would fix themselves, the world would be much better. Other examples of that is when replying to some e-mails that make my anger arise, BEFORE typing I put a smile on my face, and then try to type......well, most of the time I don't type anything, or I write something polite. The result, the other person doesn't get an angry response, and there is the possibility that his/her anger is gone, but on the other hand if I reply with anger, it is probable that his anger will be fueled and reply back, and so on ad nauseaum. So there you go, another example of a smile that fixes myself also helps somebody else. Greetings, -- Hugo 39172 From: shakti Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 7:21am Subject: Reflectinons on India Dear Friends, It has been over 25 years since I first visited Lumbini, Nepal birth place of Lord Buddha. It was fantastic to return and see the improvements made to the sacred site. When I was there previously, only a mound of crumpling bricks stood, over the site where the Lord Buddha was born. Nearby was a filthy water pool, and a pillar that Ashoka had erected to mark the sacred area. Today the site has been carefully excavated to expose the exact spot where Buddha was born. A building has been erected over the spot and the adjoining area. The pool area has been cleaned and restored. A large area has been fenced off and the surrounding area, contains well manicured lawns and beautiful bodhi trees, covered with colorful Tibetan prayer flags. The surrounding area now has many spectacular temples, Thai, Tibetan, Burmese and Japanese. It was touching to see the improvements and the care taken to preserve the area. I wondered if Buddhism really was in decline, after seeing first hand the improvements. After talking with Sarah she said, that the decline of Buddhism was like the dow jones, even though there is some apparent upward movement at times, the trend is downwards. I marveled at how fortunate we were to be able to hear the dhamma and be in such sacred places. After leaving the peace and beauty of Lumbini and heading back to India, I was at once brought back to the reality of suffering in India. It seemed that everywhere I looked the whole of humanity was suffering. India is a non ending assault of the senses. Hotel rooms smell of detol (a cleaning agent), mold and dust. People reek of damp sweaty skin, onions and rancid hair oil. We bumped along down brown potholed roads to see tin and paper slums, surrounded by smoldering mountains of garbage. Nearby signs advertised household appliances and beauty products. Pigs, cows, crows, rats, cats and kids foraged the filth, while women in brightly colored saris walked, holding dirty, thin children on their hips. This was life in Bihar, poorest of the poor states in India. I thought about, how this was all just visible object and watched as the stories about it arose. I wondered about the difference between pity and compassion. About kamma, wondering what someone could have done to be born in such a situation. I was reminded of K. Sujin's words, that when we understand realities as they are, we are not worried about any situation. We choked in clouds of dust as our bus traveled along mile after mile. We listened to car horns blaring and the sound of screeching brakes. I realized it was better not to watch, as our expert driver continually swerved to narrowly avoid head-on collisions with trucks, cars, cows and slow moving tractors. I marveled at the apparent chaos and confusion, and wondered how anyone could make sense of driving in it. I contemplated what a good lesson this was on the fragility of life. I thought that death really could be in this moment. Still alive and back in the USA, I have spent my days eating wholesome food, breathing clean fresh air and staring at the endless, clear blue sky. I've gone for walks through the Rattlesnake wilderness area and smelt it's freshness. Of all the things learned on my Indian pilgrimage, one of the most significant was that everything that is experienced, must lead to detachment. That detachment is based on understanding and that panna conditions that detachment. To be detached with panna not with I, who is detached. I was continually reminded by K. Sujin that we can begin again and again and again. During a difficult time when there was a lot of dosa arising, due to a specific situation, I appreciated so much her kind words. She said, "when there is more understanding, there will be less dosa and lobha." With metta, Shakti 39173 From: Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 12/2/04 5:25:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > > Hi Howard > > More below - if you can bear it. (-: I'm sure you can! ----------------------------------- Howard: Not to worry - I'll just plaster on a smile!! ;-)) ---------------------------------- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > [snip] > No guarantees, that's right. Many conditions, that's right too. But > >people CAN influence others and do so all the time. C'mon, Andrew, > you know > >that's so! Let's not try to score debating points. I told you about > the condolence > >call I made the other day. That's not something unusual. People > help people > >in many ways, and among them is in helping change their minds and > perspectives. > >This is fact. > > Andrew: I agree with the above 3-word sentence but with one > qualification attached. In fact, that qualification is the sum total > of my point. My sentence reads: "This is fact WHEN IT OCCURS". When > we attempt to influence others, influence doesn't *always* occur. It > does sometimes/frequently/often/whatever but not "always". That's my > point. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with that point. (That's what "No guarantees" means.) Now what? ;-) ------------------------------------------- Simple but I think it's a very important point because it is > > consistent with conditionality and anatta (where "me" > influencing "you" is just a collection of "mere expressions"). ----------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. ---------------------------------------- > > > Oh, please. When the Buddha taught his followers to take > specific > >actions, which he most assuredly did, that was prescription, > whether one is an > >Ariyan or a worldling. Andrew, have you bought into the perspective > that there is > >nothing to do and nothing to be done? The perspective that all > depends on > >causes and conditions, but your volition and volitional actions are > not *among* > >those conditions? Where is the appeal in such helplessness and > hopelessness? If > >progress on the Buddhist path cannot be affected by our actions, > then taking > >refuge and "being a Buddhist" is utter nonsense. > > Andrew: The anatta doctrine lies in the middle ground between the > wrong views of eternalism and annihilationism. I'm trying to get my > worldling head around anatta especially how there can be volition > (cetana) and action but no "actor" in the ultimate sense. As the > Buddha said, it is indeed hard to comprehend. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Anatta, the fact as well as the teaching, is deep and subtle. Indeed it is hard to comprehend, but compellingly fascinating when glimmerings of understanding do appear. ------------------------------------------- If I may be critical > > for a moment (in the nicest possible way), some posts on DSG seem to > me to veer towards the eternalist side (with cetana as the abiding > pseudo-self) and others (hi Ken H) to the annihilationist side with > strong emphasis on NOW and the separateness of mind-moments. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: It is to be expected that there are errors of both sorts, and of varying degrees for each. Sometimes there is the need to list somewhat to one side to balance a tipping towards the other. (Of course, the middle-way of anatta is neither a midpoint between extremes nor an average.) In any case, as I see it, there is far more of a nihilist-annihilationist tendency here than a substantialist-eternalist one. I also believe that the most extreme annihilationist view, rarely seen "even here" ;-), is the most dangerous of all, because it may lead to a cold impersonalism, helplessness, hopelessness, and even amorality ("There is no 'I" to do right or wrong - its all a matter of whatever conditions happen to arise; so, que sera, sera." An illogical conclusion, I know, but one that the extreme annihilationist perspective is vulnerable to.) -------------------------------------------- > Perhaps I will write more on this later ... lots of preparation to do > for the Cooran weekend. In short, no, I'm not just debating for the > fun of it. I haven't dismissed the "description argument" because, > even if the suttas are full of prescription, that prescription must > be understood within the descriptive framework of anatta, > conditionality and dependent origination. For me, the "go out and > smile at the world" thesis (as pleasant and attractive as it > undoubtedly is) doesn't completely fit with conditionality. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, as Bhante and KK agree, certainly an empty smile "plastered on" is not only useless, but often misleading if not outright deceptive. But virtually any of us can, through memory or otherwise directing the mind, find something that encourages a smile to naturally come to the lips, and the combination of wholesome emotion with corresponding physical action, the two being mutually supportive, is most fruitful. And this *does* fit with conditionality, because one species of condition is kamma - volition and volitional action. There is no reason to treat cetana as an unwanted or abandoned stepchild. ------------------------------------------ And I've > > been brave enough to say so despite all the (friendly) jibes about > being afraid to smile! (-: ------------------------------------------ Howard: My apologies with regard to that. :-) ----------------------------------------- > > >>[Exits left to suck a lemon and thereby avoid a smile] (-: > >> > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, now! So all is not lost after all! :-) > >-------------------------------------------- > > Please don't tickle my funny bone as you *know* how much I hate to > smile! (-: > --------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) -------------------------------------------- Over and out for the weekend! Best wishes> > Andrew > > ======================== You have a good weekend, too, Andrew. Lots of smiling! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39174 From: Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 2:29am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/2/04 5:29:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Bante and Hugo and Howard > > I should say, smiling is not a method thought by Buddha by it can be > a product of what taught by Buddha. We have to be clear, what is > taught and what is the result being after doing what is taught by > Buddha. If smiling is a result of kusala behaviour that is ok, but > if one used smiling to condition a kusala behaviour, then we should > be very careful because smiling can be conditioned by lobha. I did > not one say one cannot smile but I am advising against using smile as > a practise which is not found in the texts. > > > Ken O > =========================== There are lots of useful, supportive practices that the Buddha did not teach. Bowing to Buddharupas is a ready example that I can think of! Somewhere the Buddha is reported to have said that whatever is conducive to the wholesome, to calm, etc is the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39175 From: shakti Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:01am Subject: need telephone # / email address Friends, Does anyone happen to know Jack and Oy's, (of California) telephone number and / or email address??? Thanks, Shakti 39176 From: Hugo Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:16am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hello Phil, On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:53:35 +0900, plnao wrote: > I join Ken O (and others, I imagine) in wanting to know if there is such a > teaching, because- in my case at least- > I would like like to try it if that were the case. But I won't until I know > that it was the Buddha's teaching. Interesting approach. I like to try things (no matter who says it) and check if they are in accord to what the Buddha taught. Also, I think there are a lot of documents in Pali (suttas?) that hasn't been translated, so I think Phil you will have to wait quite a looooong time to find out ALL that the Buddha taught. > I think smiles are much more valuable when they arise due to conditions, as > they did in the > story I told you about smiling after doing metta meditation, smiling without > knowing it. > If I had smiled intentionally it wouldn't have been such a valuable > experience, in my > opinion. I think, you, Ken and probably others are approaching my story the wrong way, one proof is the fact that at least a couple of people replied with a description on how a smile is produced, which has NOTHING to do with my story. It is like if I tell story on how I painted my house to a different color to "camouflage" it when it becomes dirty, and then people reply describing the chemical composition of paint. I said I used the paint to accomplish a task, does it matter what is the chemical composition of the paint? Probably if I want the paint to stay put for 10 or 20 years, but for the purpose I needed at that time, it worked fine. I will read and learn about painting IF and WHEN it is needed. I used to teach about computers, a lot of my colleagues got into discussing the inner guts of programs and computers to BEGINNERS, to people who was their first time in front of a computer. Do they need to learn the inner guts of the computers at that time? Now, in my story, I smiled to myself, I didn't get angry, my family didn't suffer because they didn't get an angry reply from me. That's valuable if you think about that! Phil, have you ever dealt with 2 and 3 years old kids? If not, let me tell you they are excellent teachers in this regard. When they are in a tantrum, if you talk to them in an angry voice, the tantrum gets worse, not better. I know first-hand, more than a few times a week, at home, at the mall, etc. So, if my son gives a tantrum, and I am angry, only nasty things happen that cause suffering to him, to me and to the rest of the family. If there is a tool (e.g. smile to myself) that helps me abandon the angry state, I think it is part of Right Effort to use it. Did Buddha taught how to deal with 2 or 3 years old?........not that I know of. So how will you deal with your 2 or 3 year old when he/she comes? There are multiple tools that help you, but which one you use it and how you use them, all depends on you. > I think of smiles as flowers that we can cultivate, but not place on our > face by intention. > There is a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya (III.91) in which the Buddha teaches us > that we can plough > the field, and water it, and do other preparatory work, but we cannot will > the plants > to grow. They grow due to conditions, beyond our control. That's the way I > feel about smiles. mmmm....you are looking at the smile as a goal, my story specifically says that the smile is a tool. Using that analogy that you mention, the smile would be the water to feed the flowers of good-will which will starve the weeds of anger, or if you want a more modern approach, the smile is the anti-weed product you spray on your lawn to avoid weeds and let the flowers arise. Smile is a tool, not a goal. -- Hugo 39177 From: Hugo Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dear KK, On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:19:00 -0800 (PST), L.A. Uberstrasse wrote: > I agree with you all that the type of smile makes the difference of how it affects the world. There is a difference between a smile placed on a face and "bringing up a smile from within". I found it interesting that so many of you assumed that Bhante and I were speaking of placing a smile on your face instead of bringing up a sincere smile to work with. One clarification, in my story it is about "plastering" a smile on myself for myself trying to "call" the sincere smile, or at least to stop the arising of the anger. Most of the times both things happen. And again, I am trying to effect "myself" not "others" (but they will be effected as well). -- Hugo 39178 From: Hugo Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:24am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:25:19 +0000 (GMT), Ken O wrote: > I should say, smiling is not a method thought by Buddha by it can be > a product of what taught by Buddha. We have to be clear, what is > taught and what is the result being after doing what is taught by > Buddha. If smiling is a result of kusala behaviour that is ok, but > if one used smiling to condition a kusala behaviour, then we should > be very careful because smiling can be conditioned by lobha. Agree, and as I said in another post: 1) Calm the mind 2) Observe what defilements are there 3) Work on removing them. So, 1) is covered with 'smile', then in 2) you find that there is lobha, at 3) you work on removing lobha. > I did > not one say one cannot smile but I am advising against using smile as > a practise which is not found in the texts. I thought I was never going to hear/read that in a Buddhist circle, I thought that was only from other religions ("it is written there, that must be true. It is NOT written there, thou shall not do it"). But again, it is up to anyone to find out how to cross the river. If that works for you Ken, good. Greetings, -- Hugo 39179 From: Hugo Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:34am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) "Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" -- then you should abandon them..." [...] "...Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" -- then you should enter & remain in them. [...] So what do you think, Kalamas: Are these qualities skillful or unskillful?" "Skillful, lord." "Blameworthy or blameless?" "Blameless, lord." "Criticized by the wise or praised by the wise?" "Praised by the wise, lord." "When adopted & carried out, do they lead to welfare & to happiness, or not?" "When adopted & carried out, they lead to welfare & to happiness..." [AN III.65] Practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Once you've gained a sense of the Dhamma through appropriate attention, the remaining step is to practice in accordance with the Dhamma. As with the first two factors for stream-entry, this process is twofold: adapting your actions to follow in line with the Dhamma (rather than trying to adapt the Dhamma to follow your own preferences), and refining your understanding of the Dhamma as it is tested in experience. MN 61: "What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?" "For reflection, sir." "In the same way, Rahula, bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts are to be done with repeated reflection. "Whenever you want to perform a bodily act, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily act I want to perform -- would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily act with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily act of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with happy consequences, happy results, then any bodily act of that sort is fit for you to do. "While you are performing a bodily act, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily act I am doing -- is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to affliction of others, or both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it. "Having performed a bodily act, you should reflect on it... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities. [Similarly for verbal acts and mental acts, although the final paragraph concerning mental acts says:] "Having performed a mental act, you should reflect on it... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful mental act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should feel distressed, ashamed, and disgusted with it. Feeling distressed... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful mental action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities." [MN 61] "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami delighted at his words. [AN VIII.53] -- Hugo 39180 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:42am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi Hugo To be honest, I have seen many buddhist like you try to justify a method that is not found in the text simply because it fits into your mental construct and also how this method fits into Buddha teaching. I think I have said enough of this, if you think that is a right practise, no one can stop you. Ken O 39181 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 9:02am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi Howard Buddha also never teach you to bow to him as a method. How do one define supportive practises, is it on the basis on our own experiences. Bowing to Buddha rupas is not taught during Buddha time but recollection of Buddha is taught as a method. Bowing to Buddha at that time is out of respect of his supreme wisdom and also his compassion towards us by teaching us what he knows. We have to be clear because any wrong development we make, there is likelihood we are veering in the wrong way. We like to think that what we do are always true, good for the dhamma, in fact if we sit back and look in the text, it is no where to be found. When Buddha say do no evils, do all good (is it in Dhammapada?), it is a general statement, just like in brief, clinging of the five aggregates are suffering also in general and not in detail. It does not show the deep meaning behind such a statement. Only interpolation with other suttas and texts, the depth of the these statements are fully flavour. Ken O 39182 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 9:13am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 148 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We are discussing on 8 mahakiriya cittas. These are realities. These are cittas. These are dhamma molecules because they are made up of dhamma atom citta and other 35 dhamma atoms cetasikas. Mahakiriya citta is accompanied by 35 cetasikas. They are 7 universal cetasikas, 6 pakinnaka cetasikas, 19 universal sobhana cetasikas, 2 appamanna cetasikas and 1 pannidriya cetasika(7+6+19+2+1= 35). There are 8 mahakiriya cittas. The first pair is 1. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 2. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta Both of these 2 cittas are accompanied by 35 cetasikas as stated above. But in the 2nd pair as they are nana vippayutta cittas, panna does not arise and there will be only 34 cetasikas. The 2nd pair of mahakiriya cittas is 3. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 4. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharima citta Both of these 2 cittas are accompanied by 34 cetasikas. The 3rd pair is 5. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 6. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta There is no piti in these cittas. So 7+5+19+2+1= 34 cetasikas accompany the citta. The 4th pair is 7. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 8. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika citta There is no piti and no panna in these 2 cittas. So 7+5+19+2+0= 33 cetasikas arise with citta. In 8 mahakiriya cittas, there are 35,35 in the 1st pair, 34,34 in the 2nd pair, 34,34 in the third pair and 33,33 in the 4th pair of mahakiriya cittas. But here karuna and mudita do not always arise and when arise they do not arise together. So there will be 33,33- 32,32- 32,32- 31,31 if there is no appamanna. This means when arahats are not on the mood of karuna or mudita their mahakiriya cittas will have 33,32,32,31 for each pair. If arahats are on the mood of karuna or mudita then there will be 34,33,33,32 in each pair. Some say that they are not good at mathematics. This is not a problem. When we are contemplating on dhamma and dhamma calculation, we are free of hindrances and this help the contemplators to calm to some extent. So far we have discussed on 40 lokuttara cittas, 27 jhana cittas, 24 kama sobhana cittas. 40 + 27 + 24 = 91 cittas are all called sobhana cittas. So we have to discuss on other 30 cittas which are asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39183 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 9:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 149 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful consciousness. They are 12 akusala cittas and 18 ahetuka cittas. 12 akusala cittas are ugly and they are not beautiful and everyone knows. 18 ahetuka cittas or rootless consciousness are also non-beautiful. Because they do not have beautiful cetasikas such as alobha, adosa, amoha. 12 akusala cittas are 8 lobha mula cittas, 2 dosa mula cittas, and 2 moha mula cittas. Among them lobha mula cittas arise most frequently. And it is the first javana citta in any given life even in hell beings. When dying, citta knows he is losing a home. As soon as die that is as soon as cuti citta arises, it passes away and a patisandhi citta which is the right result of the last javana cittas arises without any interruption temporally. But that next arising patisandhi citta may be anywhere depending on what vipaka citta it is. Citta loses it home when dies. Patisandhi citta is not javana citta. After patisandhi citta, many bhavanga cittas which are the same vipaka cittas with that foregoing patisandhi citta arise. This bhavanga cittas flow stops when manodvaravajjana citta which is the first vithi citta in a life arises. This manodvaravajjana citta is followed by javana cittas. These javana cittas which are the first javana cittas in any life are lobha mula cittas. This lobha mula cittas do arise in all sattas without exception including aggasavakas-to-be, paccekabuddhas-to-be, and Sammasambuddhas-to-be. When dying citta is losing its home. When it regains another home, this has to be a great joy and even hell beings have a great joy when they first appear in the hell realms. If 8 lobha mula cittas are well understood, this will be very valuable to differentiate between joy of lobha mula cittas and joy of other sobhana cittas. If not careful, even in the middle of mahakusala cittas vithi vara, lobha mula cittas can arise and the joy or piti in lobha mula citta may micmic piti of sobhana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39184 From: Hugo Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 9:44am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hello Ken, On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:42:42 +0000 (GMT), Ken O wrote: > To be honest, I have seen many buddhist like you try to justify a > method that is not found in the text simply because it fits into your > mental construct and also how this method fits into Buddha teaching. > I think I have said enough of this, if you think that is a right > practise, no one can stop you. I agree that we should watch out for our own views, actually in the Kalamas suttas, the Buddha warns us about it. Could you please recommend me a method that is in the texts that could help me abandon anger in a moment such as the one I described (i.e. lying down and being called for help just a few seconds afterwards)? I know of methods that would help me prevent that, but I am having problems at that very specific moment. Do you have such kind of moments? if yes, what do you do?, what should I do? I am asking sincerely as I want to learn, I am not playing intellectual games. -- Hugo 39185 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 9:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 150 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 lobha mula cittas. Lobha is attachment. Mula means 'root' 'foundation' 'base' 'radicle'. All 8 lobha mula cittas do have lobha cetasika as their root dhamma. That is lobha tree is supplied and supported by lobha root. These 8 lobha mula cittas are also dhamma molecules. They are made up of dhamma atom called citta which is very pure as it is just to know the object and other dhamma atoms called cetasikas. Because of these cetasikas originally pure citta becomes impure and has got the name akusala citta called lobha mula cittas. In 8 lobha mula cittas, 7 universal cetasikas and 6 pakinnaka cetasikas arise. 4 akusala-sadharana-cetasikas namely 1.moha, 2.ahirika, 3.anottappa, and 4.uddhacca also arise. As they are lobha cittas, there does arise lobha cetasika. Sometimes ditthi cetasika arises and sometimes mana cetasika arises. So in 8 lobha mula cittas there arise 7 + 6 + 4 + lobha + ditthi/mana arise. 7+6+4+2= 19 cetasikas arise in the 1st lobha citta. The first lobha citta is called 1. somanassa saha gatam ditthi gata sampayuttam asankharika citta. The 2nd lobha citta is the same with the exception of sasankharika. This citta needs promptness. So thina and middha cetasika arise as extra cetasikas and there will be 21 cetasikas in 2nd lobha citta. The 2nd citta is 2. somanassa saha gatam ditthi gata sampayuttam sasankharika citta. In the 3rd lobha citta there is no ditthi cetasika. But in place of ditthi, mana comes in and there will be 19 cetasikas in 3rd lobha citta. 7 + 6 + 4 + lobha + mana = 19 cetasikas. The 3rd lobha citta is 3. somanassa saha gatam ditthi vippayuttam asankharika citta. The 4th lobha citta is sasankharika citta and thina and middha arise. So there will be 21 cetasikas. The 4th lobha citta is 4. somanassa saha gatam ditthi vippayuttam sasankharika citta. So in the 1st 4 lobha mula cittas there are 19, 21, 19, 21 cetasikas in each of these 4 lobha mula cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 39186 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 9:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna/Ken O Hi Larry and Howard There are many ways the D.O are explained. Howard you quote me MN 18 < feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one proliferates about. What one proliferates about is the source from which ideas derived from the proliferation of perceptions beset a person regarding past, future, and present visible forms cognizable by the eye [and o on].>> SN 12.53 Fetters (1) <> Then another way of looking at it SN 12.59 Consciouness <> SN 12.19 (9) The Wise Man and the Fool "Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindererd by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has there originated. So there is this body and external name and form: thus this dyad.>> SN 14.9(9) Diversity of External Contacts "Bhikkhus it is in dependence on the diversity of elements that there arises the diversity of preceptions; in dependence on the diversity of preceptions tha there arises the diversity of intentions; in dependence on the diversity of intentions that there arises the diversity of contacts; in dependence on the diversity of contacts that there arises diversity of feelings; in dependence on the diversity of feelings that there arises the divesity of desires....>> There are still more of it I think Nidanavagga is a very good place to look at the many diverse way D.O is taught Ken O 39187 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 10:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Death Dear All, There was a real person who really contemplate on real death. :-) This is a real story. There was a man living in a forest. Forest here means wood. Where he lived was not far from town area. He had funeral dealers make a coffin for him. He kept that coffin in his home compound in a secret area. He slipped in that coffin daily and slept in there daily. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, Nina, RobK, Phil, and all, > > It was while we were in India that Shakti spoke on the subject > of 'death'. She told how she had been a member of a group who had > decided to meet regularly and live as if they had been told they had > only a year left before dying. The group worked through another of > Stephen Levine's books "A Year To Live - how to live this year as if > it were your last". Shakti's group has just had its final meeting, > and although no member of the group died, many had friends or > relatives pass away during this time. She felt it was an > interesting process, well worth the effort, and says she was > grateful for the group support. > > I was surprised at the number of the human species who die each year > on this earth, almost unimaginable - 70,000,000! Still ... I > thought - that's in a year, and all but one or two are no body I > know. Htoo's post brought it much closer, suggesting that > I "contemplate death at each action" and stating that "daily is > still vague". (not as comfortably vague as 'yearly' :-)) Nina > urges even more precision - saying it 'is beneficial to contemplate > death of each citta, momentary death'. RobK - yes, I recall you > posting about maranasati over the last couple of years. You once > referred me to the Visuddhi Magga 'Mindfulness of Death' the eight > ways of recollecting Death - the eighth way is "as to the shortness > of the moment" ... > > "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return > No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: > The highest sense this concept will allow". > This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the > moment." > > Phil - thanks for the story of the two pairs of women. You > know ... I'm not so sure I DO know that "there is birth and death > all the time with every citta". I can think about this, about what > I have read, or have been told - but .. I can't feel it, I can't > see it. So, I don't personally 'know' the death of each citta. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 39188 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 10:16am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi Hugo I have the same problem with you about anger. I think my wife always complained I am quick in temper. And I know the only way that anger is looking it at it is wise attention (understand it as anatta, anicca and dukkha). My preference is to use anatta as it eradicates the I more effectively so lessen the concept that there is an I that is angry. There is no other way I think can be more beneficial than using wise attention. The problem with anger is sometimes the intensity or it is out of nowhere it arise strongly, these are due to our strong underlying tendency (habitual effect since limitless lives). When that kind of anger arise, I feelt that I am ovewhelm, and my wise attention did not help much because my panna is not strong enough to eradicate the underlying tendency. If I think I have reach a certain limit on my wise attention which is not strong enough to help me tide over it, the best sutta I known to recollect at that moment is Kakacupaama Sutta MN 21. I read it once in a while to remind myself. I know many times I lose to myself to anger, but I accept. It is important not to be remoseful over it because remorse is dosa rooted which in turns conditioned the underlying tendency (dont add wood into the fire). I think Phil is good at this. His experiences in eradicating dosa using wise attention on that moment it arise, is very good. I learn a lot from his experiences when he share in the list. Ken O 39189 From: Hugo Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Thanks Ken, I think I do that, but unfortunately sometimes that didn't work, that's why I needed to add something else. I need to give my mind a "whack" before I can do what you said: > And I know the only way that anger > is looking it at it is wise attention (understand it as anatta, > anicca and dukkha). [...] > The problem with anger is sometimes the > intensity or it is out of nowhere it arise strongly, I have done different experiments with anger, even to the point of being meditating and if I detect some anger arising (due to some thought that appears) I try to "play" with it, a couple of times it has gone "out of control" in the sense that then I feel really angry (don't think I go throwing things around the room). So far, the quickest way to "whack" it is to force a smile, then do the analysis and observation. BTW during those meditation sessions, I didn't use the "smile" method, I just watched the breath until the anger was extinguished. > I know many times I lose to myself to anger, > but I accept. Would you be willing to do an experiment for me? If you notice that you are "losing" the battle with anger after doing the observation, try smiling to yourself. I am curious if it would work with you as it seems that we share some characteristics. Let me know (off-list if you want) if you don't mind. > It is important not to be remoseful over it because > remorse is dosa rooted which in turns conditioned the underlying > tendency (dont add wood into the fire). Yes!!, I discovered that too!!!, sometimes I got frustrated after feeling angry and got a headache!! > I think Phil is good at this. His experiences in eradicating dosa > using wise attention on that moment it arise, is very good. I learn > a lot from his experiences when he share in the list. Yes, I read some of them. Greetings, and thanks again for replying, -- Hugo 39190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies, accumulations. (Part I) Hi Larry,(Mike, Howard). op 01-12-2004 22:45 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: Where does this idea of accumulations come from? The only "accumulation" I can find is the accumulated factors of volitional activity. I am understanding accumulation as the integration of the various factors involved in kamma formation. In that sense accumulation is kamma. N: Yes, kamma is accumulated and even after aeons the force of kamma conditions the appropriate vipaka. But not only kamma that can produce result is accumulated, but also good and bad tendencies and these condition the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas when there are opportunities for them. Accumulation can be used in a wide sense: all our experiences are accumulated, so that we remember them later on. What we learn now is not lost, we can remember it. L: Are you saying kamma conditions kamma by natural decisive support condition but not by kamma condition? N: For kamma to produce result not only kamma-condition is necessary but also natural decisive support condition. L: Can panna undermine natural decisive support condition? N: No. It is the Law of Dhamma, Dhamma Niyama. This condition comprises many factors. Some examples: someone else's kusala can condition kusala for us, namely appreciation, anumodana dana. Howard and his wife were not staring at the sick cardinal with curiosity, they were looking with concern and compassion. This supported the Cardinal and he smiled with courage. A silent dialogue, and it was the rupa bodily communication that was produced by kusala citta, on both sides. Howard told us about his visit to a bereaved family he could console. This conditions for us anumodana dana. Sarah tells us about Anthony's kind gift so that we have anumodana dana. Natural decisive support condition is operating here. We talked about it with Rob M that it is kusala citta when others tell us about their kusala. In India A. Sujin talked much about seeing: it sees only visible object, no person or thing in it. I listened this morning and I stopped the tape to consider this again and again. Lodewijk had at first wondered why we keep on talking about this for years, but he said that he now sees that it is important. We are so forgetful of seeing, absorbed in the images, but we are reminded to be aware of seeing. Listening again and again! This is also natural decisive support condition operating. The listening, considering, these are accumulated and can condition direct awareness. > > ""In the section on Œbeing possessed of latent tendencies¹ the Buddha > said : > ¹Who is with the latent tendency of sense desire, he is possessed of > it'." > > I assume "sense desire" is "kama raga". I am understanding this to > mean desire for sense pleasure, and sense pleasure isn't a pleasant > feeling that arises with sense consciousness but rather the pleasant > feeling that arises with "liking" (lobha) a sense consciousness. N: There are many shades of dense desire. It can also be longing for something, being attached (different degrees), liking. It is accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. It likes the object that is experienced and this can be a dhamma: citta, cetasika or rupa, or a concept. Feeling cetasika can be an object of lobha or kamaraga. L:So > kama raga is actually desire for the pleasant feeling of sense > desire, correct? N: Yes, but pleasant feeling is not the only object it takes. See above: any object. Now to an example. Howard described with a few words the atmosphere of New York where we lived for six years long ago, when Lodewijk was a member of the Dutch mission to the U.N. Fifth Avenue, fiftysecond street, the Metropolitan Museum, St Patrick's cathedral, the archbishop's residence. We passed it so many times. It evoked attachment to this city, pleasant feeling, happy remembrance. In short, nostalgic longing. There was attachment in the past, accompanied by pleasant feeling, happy remembrance, they all arose and passed away, but they were accumulated. The latent tendency of kama raga inheres in a pleasant object, also in pleasant feeling, also in sañña, also in the other accompanying dhammas. When there are conditions kama raga can condition the arising again of liking and longing with pleasant feeling. This falls away and goes on as latent tendency, there is an adding on to the kama raga already accumulated. And so we continue in the cycle. Nina. (to be continued) 39191 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies, accumulations Part II. latent tendencies, accumulations Part II. Hi Larry (Mike, Howard), op 01-12-2004 22:45 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: Second, I have taken a closer look at latent tendencies and > accumulations and I think we need another category for "habit". Is > there such a category? N: Habit: an example. Since we are back from India Lodewijk has formed a new habit: reading a sutta at night, and I: reading a sutta with the breakfast coffee. (Phil will like this.) We can form new habits, break old ones, form good and bad habits. Habit: what we usually do, or think. What is often done becomes a habit. What is it? Citta and cetasika, kusala or akusala. It is the action of accumulating, during the period of javana cittas. Accumulation is a difficult word. As I said it also denotes what lies dormant, and these can be: good and bad dispositions. We read in the Path of Discrimination about them. Here is part of my Translation. Aasaya is accumulated good disposition, anusaya is unwholesome latent tendency. The text is about one of the Buddha's knowledges not shared by disciples, knowledge of people¹s biases and latent tendencies², åsayånusaya ñåña: L:Neither accumulation nor latent tendency seems > to fit. It seems that latent tendency is a general tendency to act in > a certain way but not specific enough to account for why one person > likes sweet and another likes salt. N: Different people accumulated like and dislike for different things. They have different talents. L:Plus latent tendencies don't seem > to account for many emotional (javana) reactions. If they did, there > would be no path. N: They condition the javana cittas, kusala or akusala. But we are not under the yoke of fate, there is a Path, good and noble habits can be formed, something *can* be done, but it is right understanding which conditions it. And this again is conditioned by association with wise friends. In our Vis study I quoted one of my favorite Expositor texts about a change from akusala to kusala: (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom which have to be developed.> Nina. 39192 From: nina Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas Dear Naresh, op 29-11-2004 18:52 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y...: > > I was reading the e-book provided on Dhamma about > cita's & citasikas. All the experience is with citta , > the good deed, bad deed and also the result of it. Nina: Citta is the source of good deeds and bad deeds. Citta is accompanied by cetasikas performing their functions and one of them is intention or kamma. A good deed or bad deed is mental, it is the intention that makes the deed. Naresh: So > we need to understand when the citta arises & falls > away. And just observe, we cant do anything about it ? > is it so ? Nina: keen and sharp understanding of citta has to be developed before its arising and falling away can be experienced by wisdom. It is thanks to the Buddha that we learnt about wholesomeness and unwholesomeness. Learning about these helps to see the danger of unwholesomeness and the benefit of wholesomeness. This again is a condition to follow the Buddha's words: abstain from evil, develop what is good. We do not spend our lives just observing, but understanding of wholesomeness and unwholesomeness in our life can be developed. Here is a sutta that my husband likes so much. He says it is like the blow of a hammer. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Ones, the first suttas (translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 155-158): An undeveloped mind is citta that is devoid of mental development, and this includes calm and insight. All kinds of wholesomeness and understanding can be developed. If it were impossible the Buddha would not have exhorted to do so. Naresh: And resultant citta are according to kamma which we > have to undergo whether pleasnat & unpleasant. > If unpleasant what we can do about it, there is no > elimination possible ? Nina: Nobody can change the law of cause and result. Result cannot be changed, it has happened already. But only by the development of wisdom the causes of unwholesomeness can gradually be eliminated. Naresh: Again coming to wordly matters, if we have a desire > isit good or bad , as desires cant be destoyed , > everybody has desires.Some have desires for Money, > business, job, love etc. > And as per my knowledge till date desires helps to > move a person ahead or a motto in life which is i > think very important, this desire also involves > helping others. Nina: There can be selfish desire and you think this helps in society to move ahead. From the outward appearance you may think that this is true, but, read the following stanzas from the Dhammapada, vs 72-75 (translated by Ven. Narada): <72: To his ruin, indeed, the fool gains knowledge and fame; they destroy his bright lot and cleave his head. (Commentary: destroy his wisdom.) 73. The fool will desire undue reputation, precedence among monks, authority in the monasteries, honour among other families. 74. Let both laymen and monks think, "by myself was this done; in every work, great or small, let them refer to me". Such is the ambition of the fool; his desires and pride increase. 75. Surely, the path that leads to worldly gain is one, and the path that leads to Nibbana is another; thus understanding this the bhikkhu, the disciple of the Buddha, should not rejoice in worldly favours, but cultivate detachment.> If a person pushes himself forward at the cost of others, or uses dishonest means to earn money, his evil conduct will turn agains him. At first it may seem that he gains something, but in the end he is the loser. Desire to help others is wholesome desire, not the selfish desire that is unwholesome. They are different qwualities and let us learn the difference when they occur in our life. That is the beginning of the development of understanding. When you help others, there is some detachment, you do not think of your own confort. Let us verify this in our life. Nina. 39193 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies. Hi Mike, op 02-12-2004 01:39 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > >> Could you please clarify this--are akusala tendencies accumulated even in >> kusala citta? > N: Yes, they lie dormant in the continuity of cittas. Thus, no break. But > they do not arise, they condition the arising of akusala citta. > M: Thanks Nina, my understanding was that they are 'passed along' from citta to > citta, including kusala cittas of course. But other than those 'inherited' > from past cittas, kusala cittas don't accumulate new akusala do they? > Thanks for you translation but I don't think it answered this question. N: We can say passed on, but this suggests something that lasts. Kusala citta does not accumulate new akusala, but it accumulates new kusala! This is the action of accumulation. If all your questions are not answered, do keep on!!! Larry asked just now questions and these are appreciated and most welcome to me. I see if I have time today. > M: p.s. Do let me know if I can help any more with your email. N: Thank you for all your help. Yahoo sent mails back to me, I had not turned on the new address as standard, but the helpdesk helped fast. Nina. 39194 From: Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 6:58am Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hi, Ken (and Hugo) - In a message dated 12/2/04 11:54:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Hugo > > To be honest, I have seen many buddhist like you try to justify a > method that is not found in the text simply because it fits into your > mental construct and also how this method fits into Buddha teaching. > I think I have said enough of this, if you think that is a right > practise, no one can stop you. > > > Ken O > ======================= I think that you should consider the possibility of this being overly opinionated and critical of another's practice. You, I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong, don't meditate. Most Buddhists would consider that contrary to the Buddha's teachings. But that is your understanding, and no one should be critical of your practice or your understanding. You have a right to it, and no one, including me, knows for a fact that his/herr understanding of the Dhamma is "the" correct understanding or even a better understanding. Discussion consisting of "pointing out" and motivated only by welfare and the search for truth and peace is one thing, but our approach should always be gentle, and it should be carried out in a live and let live manner, I would say. Any practice motivated by the sincere wish to benefit self and others, motivated by metta and karuna, is good practice. It is best, of course, if the practice is also *right* practice, but what is right has to be determined, and is not perfectly clear. None of us has a monopoly on right understanding or on right interpretation of the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39195 From: Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna/Ken O Hi, Ken (and Larry) - I agree with the point you make in the following. Dependent origination is like a deep ocean whose bottom is hard to reach, and like a brilliant jewel with millions of facets. It's depth and complexity cannot be exaggerated. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/2/04 1:08:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Larry and Howard > > There are many ways the D.O are explained. > > Howard you quote me MN 18 > < The coming together of the three is contact. Due to contact there is > >feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one > thinks about. What one thinks about, one proliferates about. What one > proliferates about is the source from which ideas derived from the > proliferation of perceptions beset a person regarding past, future, > and present visible forms cognizable by the eye [and o on].>> > > > SN 12.53 Fetters (1) > < can fetter, craving increases>> > > Then another way of looking at it > SN 12.59 Consciouness > < that can fetter, there is descent of consciouness. With consciouness > as condition, name and form [comes to be].....>> > > SN 12.19 (9) The Wise Man and the Fool > "Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindererd by ignorance and fettered by > craving, this body has there originated. So there is this body and > external name and form: thus this dyad.>> > > SN 14.9(9) Diversity of External Contacts > "Bhikkhus it is in dependence on the diversity of elements that there > arises the diversity of preceptions; in dependence on the diversity > of preceptions tha there arises the diversity of intentions; in > dependence on the diversity of intentions that there arises the > diversity of contacts; in dependence on the diversity of contacts > that there arises diversity of feelings; in dependence on the > diversity of feelings that there arises the divesity of desires....>> > > There are still more of it I think Nidanavagga is a very good place > to look at the many diverse way D.O is taught > > > Ken O > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 39196 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] need telephone # / email address Dear Shakti, Thank you for your India reflections and the lessons you took from Kh. Sujin. Nice to read different impressions, and everybody says it in his/her way. Jack's old Email address is no longer O.K., but Kom knows. Nina op 02-12-2004 17:01 schreef shakti op deannajohnsonusa@y...: > Does anyone happen to know Jack and Oy's, (of California) telephone number > and / or email address??? Thanks, Shakti 39197 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 0:41pm Subject: Mast or Sorrowless Tree (Polyalthia longifolia var. pendula) - OT Hello All, This is off-topic but may be of interest to the returned India pilgrims. Some of you may remember a rather attractive evergreen tree with a straight stem, slender branches and a symmetrical pyramid-like crown. I have been having a difficult time finding information about it, even though it appeared to be fairly common in India. I have found it at last! yaaay! - it is popularly (but incorrectly) called an Ashoka tree and is apparently frequently confused with the real Ashoka tree (Saraca Indica) because the leaves of the two plants look similar. It is the Mast tree, also called Asoka Tree, Ashok Tree, Asupala Tree, and Sorrowless Tree (Polyalthia longifolia var. pendula). Here is a link to Daves Garden site which has a photo of this tree - I remember how tall, straight and beautiful they looked when planted one to two metres apart along property boundaries. http://davesgarden.com/pdb/showimage/37528.html/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 39198 From: plnao Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhante and Smiling & Htoo's account of smiling cittas Hi Howard, and all I think this thread has gone on already beyond this, but please allow me to jump in quickly. > Howard: > No guarantees, that's right. Many conditions, that's right too. But > people CAN influence others and do so all the time. C'mon, Andrew, you know > that's so! Let's not try to score debating points. I told you about the condolence > call I made the other day. That's not something unusual. People help people > in many ways, and among them is in helping change0their minds and perspectives. > This is fact. I used to always refer to a teaching I had read somehwere, that the Buddha said "a thousand candles can be lit by a single flame" or words to that effect. I could never trace the proper reference for it. This inspired me, of course, and I talked of a metta ripple effect, of how an act of kindness can ripple through the world. Now having learned more about conditions I would be much more sober in my assessment of this ripple effect, perhaps thinking more of it as the ripples that can spread to a certain degree in running water but are quicly washed away by the current, rather than the ripples that spread so very nicely in a placid pond. I still do think of how my kindness (or lack of it) that arises in daily life can have a beneficial effect on others, or how a thought that I share here could possibly help others, but am much more sober about it. This might be a helpful simile - I thought of it this morning. If there is a stampede of cows going by in a corral (?), and you open a side gate, and greet the cows, or offer them whatever cows like, a few might come your way, but you won't be able to change the course of the stampede. Not a very good simile - people's thoughts are not as conditioned to rush uncontrollably as stampeding cows are - but it still might be helpful in pointing at understanding what we are up against when dealing with conditions. On the other hand, the effort to help others is always bhavana for ourselves, so it doesn't do any harm. And it *does* do good, at least a little. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Oh, please. When the Buddha taught his followers to take specific > actions, which he most assuredly did, that was prescription, whether one is an > Ariyan or a worldling. Andrew, have you bought into the perspective that there is > nothing to do and nothing to be done? The perspective that all depends on > causes and conditions, but your volition and volitional actions are not *among* > those conditions? Where is the appeal in such helplessness and hopelessness? If > progress on the Buddhist path cannot be affected by our actions, then taking > refuge and "being a Buddhist" is utter nonsense. ] Seeing suttas as descriptive doesn't mean that there is nothing to done. Just that what is to be done is much subtler than following instructions, much subtler than taking specific actions. I think of the crossing the flood sutta. But I agree with you that there must be a reason that the language of the suttas seems as prescriptive as it does. My current suspicion is that many suttas can should be understood properly both as descriptive and prescriptive, depending on one's degree of insight, or the degree of insight that is there at any one moment. I think of this sutta passage, which I paraphrased in another thread: "A monk may discern that "when I exert a mental fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of of exertion there is dispassion....when I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity, there is dispassion." ( from MN 101) Of course, this is only one small peice of a much larger sutta, so it is not wise to look at it out of context, but I will anyways! Seen as prescriptive, the sutta told me that I can discriminate between sources of suffering and abandon some and tolerate others with equanimity. In my case this was true, but the cause of stress I abandoned was very gross, very basic, very obvious. (I stopped watching the news, and therefore stopped delighting in chaos in Iraq) Seen as descriptive, the sutta points at the gradual cultivation of wisdom that knows what can be abandoned and what can be tolerated. It seems much more "true" this way, even though it no longer offers me quick fixes. But the quick fix it *did* offer when seen as descriptive was very helpful. An experienced meditator like yourself will appreciate this sutta on a much deeper level. I've only begun to think of this descriptive/prescriptive thing and have only begun to think about this sutta, but I offer this anyways in passing for what it's worth. Metta, Phil 39199 From: Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies, accumulations. (Part I) Hi Nina, I have a few qualms about your reply. But first a question, are latent tendencies and accumulations exactly the same or different? I would say accumulations can be either wholesome or unwholesome but latent tendencies are always unwholesome although bhavaraga (relishing the process) is confined to jhana which is supposed to be wholesome. N: "Accumulation can be used in a wide sense: all our experiences are accumulated, so that we remember them later on." L: What cetasika accumulates experiences and later remembers them? L: "Are you saying kamma conditions kamma by natural decisive support condition but not by kamma condition?" N: "For kamma to produce result not only kamma-condition is necessary but also natural decisive support condition." L: I'm not talking about kamma producing result. You said javana is conditioned by accumulations. What are these accumulations? They are the accumulations of previous javana cittas and related factors such as actions. However javana cannot condition javana by means of kamma condition even though javana is kamma. Therefore, javana must condition javana by natural decisive support condition. L: "Can panna undermine natural decisive support condition?" N: "No. It is the Law of Dhamma, Dhamma Niyama. This condition comprises many factors." L: I disagree. If I am in the habit of becoming angry in a certain kind of situation there is the possibility that panna could intervene, thus disrupting the usual reaction. This is the virtue of panna, to undermine latent tendencies and even wholesome accumulations by disrupting natural decisive support condition. Larry