40000 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/20/04 12:26:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Thanks Howard, > This is very kind of you, it allows me to comment freely. Actually > nothing negative to say - more of a 'let's wait and see'. I will try > to write later tonight but first perhaps you could compare this > experience with the one where you wrote on TG "My experience has > been evaluated by Leigh > Brassington, a student of Ayya Khema, as probably a shuttling > between the 2nd > and > 5th jhanas. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: This was definitely not jhana, or at least not jhana of the same sort. Perhaps it was what some call access concentration, or moment-to-moment concentration. I don't know. To me it was a meditation much the same as many that I have had except for being calmer, clearer, easier (unforced and flowing on its own), and without any noticing of "self", and absent of any obvious thinking or conceptual labeling. --------------------------------------------- > I *have* read that the jhanas are, with the exception of piti, purely > mind-door experiences. But I cannot say as a general fact that the > jhanas are > basically mind-door only. All I can tell you is that was my > experience." (I see this thread is now also on TG so I think it is > Ok to bring in this point here). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it's there as well, though not at my initiation. I was uneasy about that, as a matter of fact. But it's a small matter, I suppose. ---------------------------------------- I am assuming that the one we are > > discussing today was quite different from the previous one? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Altogether different: For one thing, there was no ecstatic joy or experience of infinite space, but just normal sense-door experience freed of obvious conceptualization, and accompanied by calm bodily and mental pleasure. It was multi-sensory, and definitely not mind-door only, and it was far less static, in that the experience was a dynamic flow of sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. - in short, a stream of paramattha dhammas. -------------------------------------------- > RobertK > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40001 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 78- Volition/cetanaa (h) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Kamma patha can be of different degrees and thus its result is of different degrees. Kamma patha is not always a ‘completed action’. There are certain constituent factors which make kamma patha a completed action and for each of the kamma pathas these factors are different. For example, in the case of killing there have to be: a living being, consciousness that there is a living being, intention of killing, the effort of killing and consequent death (Atthasåliní, I, Part III, Chapter V, 97). When a large animal is killed the degree of akusala kamma is higher than when a small animal is killed. The killing of a human being is akusala kamma which is of a higher degree than the killing of an animal. In the case of slandering, there are four factors which make it a completed action: other persons to be divided; the purpose: ‘they will be separated’, or the desire to endear oneself to another; the corresponding effort; the communication (Atthasåliní, same section, 100 ). We read: -“But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not -amount to a complete course; it does so only when there is a rupture.” Akusala kamma patha which is a “completed action” is capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. Some akusala kammas which are very powerful such as killing a parent produce an unhappy rebirth in the immediately following life. Some akusala kammas produce results in this life, some in following lives. There are many intensities of akusala kamma and they produce their results accordingly. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40002 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Hi KenH & All, --- kenhowardau wrote: > >. To put a charitable slant on my > anti-guru-fake-meditation-master fundamentalism, I am only trying to > help others to avoid the mistakes I made and wasting the time I > wasted. ….. S: I know this is true and I, for one,always appreciate all your efforts to share your understanding of the Dhamma with us here. Can we help others to avoid our mistakes? Can parents help their children avoid the same errors they’ve made? Could even the Buddha prevent others like Devadatta from following serious wrong views which led to heinous crimes? Right and wrong views and all other dhammas are conditioned in so many complex ways as you know so well. All we can ever do is to share the little knowledge we may have as best we can and continue to develop more awareness and insight ourselves into the teachings, I think, without any expectations or minding about the results. A couple of friends in India were asking K.Sujin about ways to help family members and her response was just to share and help those who were interested without any concern about whether they were particular family or friends (whom of course we are so attached to). It reminded me of many years ago, when she came with her father and Jonothan to stay in my parents’ home in England. Friends came from all over the country for the Dhamma discussions and my mother catered beautifully. I had many expectations of the benefit my parents would receive from this immersion in Dhamma discussion. Indeed my father had always been keenly interested in discussing philosophy, religion and politics and my mother had always been open-minded, I thought, even encouraging me in my spiritual endeavours and journeys to the East. There was plenty of congenial chit-chat over meals, on day-trips and looking round the garden, but as soon as we started the Dhamma discussions, both my parents and K.Sujin’s father too, would quickly but politely disappear, unwilling to listen to a word, even though my parents both liked her a lot. It was a good lesson for me at the time that we can only share our understanding with those who wish to hear it For some reason, these concerns and expectations that we all share remind me of the Salla Sutta from Sutta Nipata (Maha Vagga,8). Perhaps we could add ‘Wrong Views’ to what is endemic in the world and see any concern or grieving about it on our part as being the problem or the dart that needs to be removed. Here's an extract: "7. Look: while relatives are watching, tearful and groaning, men are carried off one by one, like cattle being led to the slaughter. 8. So death and ageing are endemic to the world. Therefore the wise do not grieve seeing the nature of the world. 9. You cannot know his path as to where he has come from, or where he is going. So it makes no sense to grieve for him. 10. The man who grieves gains nothing. He is doing no more than a foolish man who is trying to hurt himself. If a wise man does it, it is the same for him. 11. Peace of mind cannot come from weeping and wailing. On the contrary, it will lead to more suffering and greater pain." (From ‘Salla Sutta’, Sutta-nipata, translated by Ven. Dr. H. Saddhatissa.) ***** S: I hasten to add that I'm not suggesting you're weeping and wailing for a moment over any perceived misguided notions here, KenH;-). Look forward to your further helpful reminders. Metta, Sarah ======== 40003 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. Hi James, You made some good comments here: --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: The texts suggest that visible objects are the most commonly > experienced, followed by sounds and this is how it would seem to me. > > James: I am not so sure that "seeing" is the most important sense > sphere simply because it is listed first in the traditional listing, > often times in suttas the most important element is listed last. …. S: Ok, in the quote I gave, it said the eye-door was the most ‘obvious’. We’re very attached to what is seen and proliferated a lot on account of the eye-door. Of course, as I stressed to Herman, we all have different tendencies and preferences in this regard. For most of us, even when our eyes are closed, we’re still thinking about various sights. It even seems to us that it’s light most the time when in fact we live in darkness apart from those very brief moments of the seeing of visible objects. Like the magician’s trick, we’re fooled all the time on account of the perversions of sanna, citta and ditthi with regard to visible objects, I think. We really imagine we see people and things all day -- the mirage--and the delusion will continue until there is real understanding and detachment at these moments. So, I think you’re right to point out that compared to all the thinking in the mind-door processes, moments of seeing are very, very brief. However, without such experiencing through the 5 sense doors, there wouldn’t be all the proliferating through the mind-door. This is why seeing and visible object and the other sense experiences and objects have to be known for what they are. ….. > This makes sense because at the end of a rather lengthy list, the > last item is going to be the one which remains most fresh in the > minds of the listeners and would be the one the Buddha wanted to > emphasize most. In this case, "Intellect and Ideas" is > traditionally listed last in the six sense spheres. From my > perspective, "Intellect and Ideas" is much more significant and > occurs more frequently than "Eye and Forms". It just makes more > sense to me. …. S: Yes, no disagreement. However, I think that compared to the other sense doors, we attach a lot of importance to the eye door. It’s good your appreciate how significant the attachment to the mind door objects are – of course these are on account of what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched. One brief moment of seeing or hearing and then so much mind-door activity follows, usually without any awareness or understanding. Even when it seems there is no thinking as we’re used to ‘think’ of it conventionally, there is still the mind-door activity following the sense door objects, with sanna (perception) marking, vitakka (thinking) touching, cetana (intention) coordinating and so on. Even when we look out of the window as I’m doing from time to time now as I write, there is ‘reading’ or ‘thinking’ about and marking the various objects seen. In other words, thinking about concepts doesn’t have to be in words at all. You’ll be rightly telling me I’ve veering off-track. Thanks for your feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your comments (to Howard) #39599 where you rightly pointed out that we should distinguish between the Vinaya precepts (or Patimokkha sila) which applies principally to bhikkhus and guarding the sense doors (Indriya samvara sila) which develops with mindfulness. I appreciated your comment about the internal process which ‘doesn’t require a manipulation of one’s environment’. See also under sila in Nyantiloka’s dictionary for a brief summary of the different kinds of sila. ====================================================== 40004 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > > This seems like an appropriate spot to make the following point, > which has been stewing for a few years (perhaps a bit overcooked by > now :-)) ... S: Certainly sounds like it needs some air :-) ... > > Seeing is the knowing of visible object, hearing the knowing of > sound etc. This is immediate, unmediated, non-reflexive. .... S: If you mean knowing in the sense of experiencing.... .... > Knowing seeing, or knowing hearing etc is not-immediate, it is > mediated, it is reflexive, it is the knowing of a knowing, it is > consciousness of a consciousness. .... S: For all intents and purposes, the knowing of seeing etc is immediate. Here I take the knowing to be experiencing with panna. It's panna which knows. (I'm leaving aside the reflexive and non-reflexive for further elaboration if you wish to give it). .... > Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. ... S::-/ I don't follow. ... >When it is said that > cittas are so fast and short-lived, this is said relative to another > level, namely the knowing of seeing or the knowing of hearing. ... S: Whether there is or is not any knowing of dhammas, cittas are fast and short-lived. It's just the truth, not relative to anything. ... > When Freud posited the unconscious, he meant that the unconscious > was unconscious relative only to the ego, not to itself. That the > mind-generated ego is aware (consciousness of consciousness) of only > one consciousness at a time does not mean there is only one > consciousness at a time. ... S: Yes, but here we're talking about what the Buddha taught;-) .... > From the ability of people to drive through a maze of fast-moving > objects, whilst being reflexively aware of only their next post to > dsg, it is clear that there is a level of knowing which operates > very effectively without needing to be known again by itself. ... S: Ignorance and Wrong view don't mean we can't drive and function perfectly 'normally' as worldlings. I've always been a bad driver and however much wisdom was developed, I doubt I'd ever be a good one for that matter;-). .... > What are visible object and sound other than visible object and > sound? Are they something lesser than what they are before they are > known as having been seen or heard? ... S: No. No change at all. This is why the practice has to be developed naturally, understanding what's always been true and always will be true. No difference in the sounds or visible objects at all. .... > This is not a metaphysical question. But there is room to doubt the > validity of any suggestion that sound becomes sound by virtue of > being heard (reflexively in a secondary consciousness) or likewise > that visible object becomes so by virtue of being seen. ... S: Certainly the Buddha didn't teach that 'sound becomes sound by virtue of being heard'. The sound is a condition for hearing. If there is no hearing, all we can say is that sound isn't experienced (like the sound of the waterfall in Malaysia;-) It's real, but not experienced by the hearing.) ... > The need for liberation is the need to be liberated from the > clutching at reflexive knowing of what has already been and gone and > been duly known by itself. ... S; A little lost here. What's gone has gone and can never be known. Clutching at any knowing is a recipe for more clutching only. Understanding the presently appearing dhamma without clutching is what it's all about. ... > Comments very welcome. ... S: I'll be glad to hear your further comments, Herman. I've probably missed one or two of your more subtle points. Metta, Sarah p.s I came across the squinting post of yours I referred to having kept aside(#36544). Interesting. I'll leave it unless you wish to pursue at all. The discussion in India I referred to about the rapidly following eye door, body door and mind door experiences was in Varanasi(Banares), hotel garden, if you or Howard wish to listen. ====================== 40005 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:09am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi Howard, You gave an excellent summary of the points I was making. Thank you! I really appreciated reading the following in your own articulate words. My comments are mere minor quibbles and extra quotes only here: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > My understanding of your take on relations is the following: > 1) It is a fact that conditions are such that the coming together > of > certain ones of them are occurrences that are necessary and sufficient > for the > arising, at the same time or later, of various other conditions. … S: Yes … > 2) Conditions (dhammas), together with their features, are what > are > realities. … S: ‘are mostly realities’. (e.g. arammana paccaya includes concepts) …. 3) The characteristics of some conditions to lead to > others when > in proper combination with other conditions, as well as the > characteristics > of some conditions to depend, for their arising, upon such other groups > of > conditions, are among the important features of dhammas. Relations, per > se, are > not realities, but are merely conventional ways of thinking and speaking > about > the conditioning and conditionable features of dhammas as outlined > above. > 4) The Patthana, while ostensibly about "conditional relations", > is > actually about dhammas and their characteristics of serving as > conditions for > other dhammas and as owing their existence to the simultaneous or > earlier > occurrence of other conditions. … S: Yes …. > 5) When you speak of "forces" and the "power" to make other > dhammas > arise, this is only a manner of speaking. … S: I’d just like to point out that these are not my terms, but as used in the texts. U Narada in his preface to ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’ which I believe you have, Howard: “Again, Patthana deals with materiality-mentality as the cause, the effect and the conditioning force. So if one really knows materiality-mentality in these three ways one acquires Purity of Ovwercoming Doubt (ka’nkaavitara.na-visuddhi), is freed from rebirth in the lower regions and is usre of one’s destiny….” …. >You are not presuming hidden, > substantial forces and powers. This is just a way of speaking about > conditionality in > the sense of "when this is, that is. When this arises, that arises", > where the > conditionality is regular, dependable, and objective. (Again, I think of > the > example of a farmer explaining that a sprout has the power to grow into > a > plant, and then looking askance at the city dweller who asks him where > in the > sprout that power is to be found! ;-) …. S: Excellent! … > If my understanding expressed above of your position is on > target, > then I do think that your position is quite reasonable and certainly > quite > Buddhist. …. S: Of course, I don’t believe it to be ‘my position’ which I’ve invented but the explanation of the truth of conditions as given in the texts;-). From U Narada’s preface again: “In essence, Pth. deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed (sa’nkhata) states that arise and cease at every instant without a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Condtitions. So Pth. is the teaching of anatta. “The materiality-mentality, which constitutes the human being, is not willed nor incited by atta or by any abiding entity, but is due to many causes. For example, when visible objects are seen daily, the seeing is due to four causes: 1)visible object. 2) sensitive eye, 3) light and 4) attention. For it is only when these four causes are present at the same time that eye-consciousness arises to see or know a visible object. But with the arising of eye-consciousness with a very great object a mental process takes places according to the fixed nature of the mind (citta-niyama).” (Here U Narada adds a footnote to say that “the mental processes were not made up by the Commentators. They took them from proximity condition of Pth. Expounded by the Buddha”) …. >Still I wonder a bit about possible alternatives that confer > more than > mere conventional reality to relations. It is certainly clear to me that > general > relations such as "temporal predecessor relation" and "cooccurrence > relation" > are merely well-founded concepts. For that matter, general rupas such as > > "hardness" and "warmth" and general dhammas such as "pleasant feeling" > and "anger" > are also merely well-founded concepts. Any specific hardness or warmth > or > pleasant feeling or anger is an actual experiential occurrence, and is > not > concept. Likewise, it seems possible to me that any specific > co-occurring of dhammas > and any specific preceding of a dhamma by another are experiential > realities > as well. …. S: Yes. …. >I'm afraid that if we accord only 2nd class status to > (concrete) > relations, that is, to specific instances/occurrences of "relations", > then we may > be committing ourselves, except conventionally, to a static view of > things. … S: I don’t follow you here. …. > There is certainly a problem with reifying relations - there is > no > doubt about that. But there is also a problem with according them only > conventional reality, which means actually denying them any existence at > all from an > ultimate perspective. … Yes. We speak conceptually here, but refer to ultimate realities. Well-grounded concepts, I think you say. …. >I think there may be the need for some sort of > middle-way > perspective on this matter. One possible approach, that I'm not prepared > at > this point to dismiss outright, may be that of viewing concrete > relations as > kinds of real events, specifically multi-phenomenal events that occur > either > trans-temporally or uni-temporally, as compared to paramattha dhammas > which, if > viewed as events, must be viewed as events that are uni-phenomenal and > uni-temporal. …. S: Lost again at the end, sorry. One more quote from U Narada’s preface: “In the discourse of the Six sixes (M 111, 333) it is stated: ‘If anyone should say, “Eye is self,” that is not fitting. For the arising of the eye is to be seen, and its decaying. For the arising of the eye is to be seen and its decaying. Since its arising and decaying are to be seen one would thus be brought to the stage of saying: “Self arises in me and pases away.” Therefore if anyone should say, “Eye is self.” That is not fitting; in this way eye is not self’ and so on. This shows in detail the anatta nature of materiality-mentality. So when it is said that a being sees and so on, it is really the functions of materiality-mentality and, according to Pth. As shown above, the functions of the conditioning forces. It is not the functions of atta.” The entire Tipitaka (and commentaries) are indeed for the purpose of teaching us about dhammas as anatta Thank you again for your very well-considered feedback. Metta, Sarah ======= 40006 From: Egbert Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Phil, > > > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) > to the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. > > Hmm. Easier said than done. In my case it is so difficult to stop > myself from devouring suttas. Reading them at a patient pace and > reflecting on each one is good. But I don't and can't do that. So the Dhamma inferno gets fed more and more. It's easier to let go of > unwholesome thoughts related to troubles in daily life by reflecting > on the worldy concerns. > Perhaps I'm being a little dogmatic here, but when the sum disadvantage of any act or behaviour is *really* seen, the behaviour *will* be altered. On the converse, when behaviour isn't altered, it is because there is still the seeing of relatively more advantage than disadvantage in it. When there is rightly seeing the disadvantage of smoking, grog, loose women, theft, causing harm etc etc giving them up happens. (There was never a suggestion here, by the way, that you shouldn't be reading suttas). What people do is the sum total of all what they believe. There are always many conflicting impulses, all sorts of needs, wants and shoulds. > > > No need to attack the foundations of wrong views of self when the > > current view is from the 30th floor. In fact, better not to. Self- > > views are in the basement, and if you manage to weaken those > > foundations with the whole superstructure still in place, things > get > > very messy. > > I have been using a similar metaphor these days, but the foundation > I think of is what goes on with the unwholesome roots of desire, > aversion and delusion. The book I read "the Roots of Good and Evil" > was very good indeed and Nina suggested that I share some of it with > the group. That would be a good exercise to stay in the foundation. > > > The Buddha saw the disadvantage even in consciousness. But we > labour where we are. And that's where the disadvantage is to be > found. > Well, to tell the truth I've lost you here, Herman, but I think > we'd both agree that not trying to figure out exactly what you > mean what be a good example of letting go of thinking! This is not to say that you haven't made a good point - just that I will not try to figure it out now. I appreciate the above very much!! Now I'll go and wreck it by explaining :-) The Buddha said that he would not recommend being/becoming for even so long as it takes to click the fingers. (Book of Ones) And he taught the way to the end of becoming. But we, speaking generally, are ensconsed in any number of sensual pursuits, be they household, family, possesions, job, travel, intellectual pursuits etc etc. Going to work on the train everyday to keep the dream alive is where we will likely find our disadvantage, not in giving a foundation to consciousness, each moment again, which we also do, but without any knowing that we do it, or that it can be otherwise. Because if we did know it, we wouldn't be on that train :-) Hope that is clearer, All the best Herman PS One more quote from the Udana "The retinue of the gods and the unconverted, Clinging to the joys and delights of form, Depart into the power of the King of Death, To wither and to weep. But those who keep vigil by night and by day, And forsake all that is loveable in form; They truly dig up the root of sorrow. Hard is it to overcome the temptations That lead unto Death." > > > > With regards to your naturally arising resolution, good on you, > > Phil!!!!! > > Thanks for your encouragememnt. The above about letting go of > fiuguring out the point you were making was one of those naturally > arising resolutions. Like you said earier, wisdom guides us to let go > of thinking now and then. Patience and faith that that will continue > to happen. > On the other hand, wisdom will also let us know when it is time to > bear down hard on something we haven't figured out. > > Metta, > Phil 40007 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Since I did my searching in Majjhima Nikaya, and the one example Christine > cited was from the Digha Nikaya, and as far as I know those are supposed to > contain the oldest Suttas, I don't see the basis for the claim of that scholar you > were citing. > > What's important is not debating this issue, but to read the Suttas on a > regular basis. (So that we don't need scholars to tell us (rightly or wrongly) > what's in the Suttas.) > > TG Hallo TG Reading the Sutta's: I do, more and more, so you are right. I have in general no problems with scholars, many of their books did help me on my buddhistic path The reason I put my message about two or four stages was also to make the culture of this dsg a little bit less orthodix (see my message a week ago to Sarah) Metta Joop 40008 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:00pm Subject: Future Harmony ... !!! Friends: The Seven Things Securing Social Welfare: 1: If people Meet regularly by holding frequent Councils, such community will make progress and not decline... 2: If people assemble in Harmony, interact in Harmony & depart in Harmony, such fellowship will prosper & not decay... 3: If people neither Authorize new Rules nor Abolish old Rules, such society will be stable & imperturbable... 4: If people honour, respect, revere & salute the Fathers, Elders & Leaders, such culture will grow & not fade... 5: If people Control & Reduce their Lusts, Desires Greed, such association will prosper and not fall into excess... 6: If people devote themselves to a simple living in remote houses, such federation will remain sound & unconfused... 7: If people cultivate Awareness, attentive to what they think, say & do, good friends will come & stay at ease. Such refined groups will develop as a fine perfume & not degrade society... Source: The 80 years old Gotama Buddha in year 483 BC India. Digha Nikaya 16 The Great Going Beyond. The Buddha's Last Days. Mahaparinibbana Sutta. [ii 77] Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 40009 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, the material in that sutta is more than just a little grandiose > to associate with my meditation. ;-) Friend Howard, I don't think the sutta I quoted is too grandiose to apply to your experience. Okay, since you don't see the connection of this sutta with your meditation experience, I will elucidate: With suffering as a requisite condition you developed faith. You developed faith in the Triple Gem and the value of meditation. Some people resign themselves to the suffering inherent in life, but you developed faith that there is a way to end suffering. Your strong faith is illustrated in your dedication to the meditation practice even though you hadn't witnessed stellar results for a period. With faith as a requisite condition you developed joy. This joy is evident where you write, "I settled down quickly". Joy doesn't mean bounding around the room in a delirium of ecstasy, as many associate with the meaning; joy is more a subtle type of gladness. Rather than facing the suffering inherent in life with undue stress, you had gladness/joy in the practice and therefore settled down quickly. With joy as a requisite condition you developed rapture. This rapture is evident where you write, "becoming quite calm". Rapture is an increased interest in the meditation subject which lightens the mind and body. Rapture can develop in various stages of intensity, and your rapture was maybe at the beginning level, but I believe it was still rapture in the meditation subject. With rapture as a requisite condition you developed tranquility. This is evident where you write "relaxed, and alert". Your mind began to be less disturbed by mental disturbances and this created relaxation in your mind and body. This relaxation and lessening of mental disturbances made your mind alert. With tranquility as a requisite condition you developed happiness. This is evident where you write, "and a combination of great calm and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed." Happiness is a pleasurable feeling that arises due to the calmness and clarity having a cumulative effect in the aggregate of feeling. With happiness as a requisite condition you developed concentration. This is evident where you write, "all thinking stopped, but clear seeing persisted." Concentration is the unification of the mind on the meditation object to the extent that discursive thinking stops. However, the mind will still be aware of the meditation object. With concentration as a requisite condition you developed knowledge and vision of things as they really are. This is evident where you write, "there were no "stories", and there were no conventional objects or things observed; but there was the very clear seeing of the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in a stream of experience." This is where the development of insight (vipassana) lead to panna (wisdom) of things as they really are: impersonal phenomena. Now, here is where the transcendental dependent origination trails off probably due to lack of time meditating and a need for a deepening of the experience. The next stages would be: Disenchantment Dispassion Emancipation The Knowledge of Destruction So I believe that, according to the Buddha, you did complete the first part of the process to enlightenment, you just need to continue the process. I'm very excited for you! Glad that you will have the time due to your retirement to really work on this! Metta, James 40010 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Sarah and Herman - A couple comments with regard to a little piece of your conversation (the material quoted with ">" is from Herman): > > Seeing is the knowing of visible object, hearing the knowing of > sound etc. This is immediate, unmediated, non-reflexive. .... S: If you mean knowing in the sense of experiencing.... .... > Knowing seeing, or knowing hearing etc is not-immediate, it is > mediated, it is reflexive, it is the knowing of a knowing, it is > consciousness of a consciousness. .... S: For all intents and purposes, the knowing of seeing etc is immediate. Here I take the knowing to be experiencing with panna. It's panna which knows. (I'm leaving aside the reflexive and non-reflexive for further elaboration if you wish to give it). ------------------------------------------- Howard: When just seeing or hearing etc, what is known is visual or auditory object, and at that moment there is no knowing *that* there is a knowing of that object. However, subsequent to the eye-door or ear-door experiencing, there is a complex mental process involving memory and recognition that results in (or constitutes) the knowing of that prior eye-door or ear-door experiencing. That process occurs quickly and directly following upon the original (direct) knowing of visual or auditory object, and it seems to our sluggishly-paced surface level of awareness to be simultaneous with the original knowing. This is how the matter seems to me, and I suspect that is what you, Herman, mean by a relexive knowing. ----------------------------------------- .... > Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. ... S::-/ I don't follow. --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure either, Herman. --------------------------------------- ... >When it is said that > cittas are so fast and short-lived, this is said relative to another > level, namely the knowing of seeing or the knowing of hearing. ... S: Whether there is or is not any knowing of dhammas, cittas are fast and short-lived. It's just the truth, not relative to anything. -------------------------------------- Howard: That makes no sense to me, Sarah. When a sequence of events is said to be rapid or slow, that is *always* with respect to something else. Otherwise it is meaningless. My understanding of saying that cittas are fast and short-lived is that many mindstates pass by having "the same" rupa as object. When the Buddha described this conventionally in the suttas, he was saying that thoughts etc come and go far more quickly - that mind changes far more quickly - than "material objects" change. Succinctly. Mind changes much more quickly than matter. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ?etasikas' study corner 77 - Volition/latent tendencies. Hi Howard, op 18-12-2004 20:56 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: I have just one question with regard to > your > summation, "As we have seen, the latent tendencies are six kinds of > cetasikas: attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) conceit (måna), wrong view > (ditthi), > doubt (vicikicchå) and ignorance (moha)" There does seem to be a case of > redundancy among these "six". Are not mana, ditthi, and vicikicca all aspects > of moha? > (Or is the term 'moha' actually more restricted than 'avijja', with 'avijja > meaning "ignorance" but 'moha' meaning only "confusion", which could be > considered a particular species of "ignorance"?) N: Mana is clinging to the importance of self in different ways, it arises with lobha-muulacitta. but each akusala citta is also accompanied by moha, ignorance. Ditthi is wrong view and there are many varieties of it: eternalims, annihilation belief, personality belief, clinging to rites and rituals, etc. It arises with lobha-muulacitta. Vicikicca, doubt, arises with moha-muulacitta, but it is not the same as ignorance. It is doubt about dhammas: is it this or is it that? Thus, they are not aspects of moha, but they are conditioned by moha. When there is doubt there is no pañña. Moha is not knowing dhammas as they are, and thus, it is hard to know this reality, it is dark; like a black curtain it darkens. You gave an example before that when feeling blue it seems that there is no specific object appearing. I am glad you gave this example, it made me think. Indeed, I find too that everything is vague, there is no clear knowledge of different objects. That is the characteristic of moha, but, it is hard to detect. Precisely because there is moha at such moments. Whereas when there is pañña, it lights up the darkness. Pañña clearly distinguishes different objects one at a time. Thus, when there is clear understanding, clear seeing, there is no doubt, we do not need to ask: of what object is there clear understanding? Pañña is very precise, no vagueness. One object appears at a time, whatever that may be. As to latent tendencies, I have to add something. We discussed the subject of feeling in India. Pleasant feeling for a pleasant object is also conditioned by the latent tendency of sense desire. Feeling itself is not a latent tendency but it is conditioned by it. Evenso unpleasant feeling, it is conditioned by the latent tendency of aversion. Nina. 40012 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread (192) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are different classification systems on citta. A. Vedana classification B. Hetu classification C. Jati classification D. Bhumi classification E. Kicca classification F. Multifunctional classification G. Dvara classification and many others. In the previous post, dvara or sense-doors have been explained. G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas Dvarika means 'at door'. There are 46 cittas that arise at eye-sense- door or at cakkhu dvara. These 46 cittas are 1. 1 pancadvaravajjana citta 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 4. 3 santirana cittas (2 upekkha and 1 somanassa) 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta) 6.29 kama-javana cittas( 12 akusala, 1 hasituppada, 8 mahakusala, 8 mahakiriya cittas) 7. 8 tadarammana cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas) ------- 46 cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40013 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/20/04 5:09:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > >Still I wonder a bit about possible alternatives that confer > >more than > >mere conventional reality to relations. It is certainly clear to me that > >general > >relations such as "temporal predecessor relation" and "cooccurrence > >relation" > >are merely well-founded concepts. For that matter, general rupas such as > > > >"hardness" and "warmth" and general dhammas such as "pleasant feeling" > >and "anger" > >are also merely well-founded concepts. Any specific hardness or warmth > >or > >pleasant feeling or anger is an actual experiential occurrence, and is > >not > >concept. Likewise, it seems possible to me that any specific > >co-occurring of dhammas > >and any specific preceding of a dhamma by another are experiential > >realities > >as well. > …. > S: Yes. > …. > >I'm afraid that if we accord only 2nd class status to > >(concrete) > >relations, that is, to specific instances/occurrences of "relations", > >then we may > >be committing ourselves, except conventionally, to a static view of > >things. > … > S: I don’t follow you here. > …. > > There is certainly a problem with reifying relations - there is > >no > >doubt about that. But there is also a problem with according them only > >conventional reality, which means actually denying them any existence at > >all from an > >ultimate perspective. > … > Yes. We speak conceptually here, but refer to ultimate realities. > Well-grounded concepts, I think you say. > …. > >I think there may be the need for some sort of > >middle-way > >perspective on this matter. One possible approach, that I'm not prepared > >at > >this point to dismiss outright, may be that of viewing concrete > >relations as > >kinds of real events, specifically multi-phenomenal events that occur > >either > >trans-temporally or uni-temporally, as compared to paramattha dhammas > >which, if > >viewed as events, must be viewed as events that are uni-phenomenal and > >uni-temporal. > …. > S: Lost again at the end, sorry. > ==================== I apologize, Sarah. It was the theoretical mathematician speaking this time, not the poet! ;-) Let's just say that the content of the 1st paragraph, that you assented to, is the basis for what I write after that. But never mind - I'm just "thinking out loud" in the foregoing, and it's not very important anyway. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40014 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, James - In a message dated 12/20/04 8:24:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, James - > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, the material in that sutta is more than just a little > grandiose > >to associate with my meditation. ;-) > > Friend Howard, > > I don't think the sutta I quoted is too grandiose to apply to your > experience. Okay, since you don't see the connection of this sutta > with your meditation experience, I will elucidate: > > With suffering as a requisite condition you developed faith. You > developed faith in the Triple Gem and the value of meditation. Some > people resign themselves to the suffering inherent in life, but you > developed faith that there is a way to end suffering. Your strong > faith is illustrated in your dedication to the meditation practice > even though you hadn't witnessed stellar results for a period. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, my confidence in the triple gem is very strong - I suspect unshakably strong. ----------------------------------- > > With faith as a requisite condition you developed joy. This joy is > evident where you write, "I settled down quickly". Joy doesn't mean > bounding around the room in a delirium of ecstasy, as many associate > with the meaning; joy is more a subtle type of gladness. Rather > than facing the suffering inherent in life with undue stress, you > had gladness/joy in the practice and therefore settled down quickly. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. Well, "okay". --------------------------------------- > > With joy as a requisite condition you developed rapture. This > rapture is evident where you write, "becoming quite calm". Rapture > is an increased interest in the meditation subject which lightens > the mind and body. Rapture can develop in various stages of > intensity, and your rapture was maybe at the beginning level, but I > believe it was still rapture in the meditation subject. > --------------------------------- Howard: Okay on this. Almost always when I meditate there is some degree or other of rapture - sort of a physical elation or enthusiasm. -------------------------------- > > With rapture as a requisite condition you developed tranquility. > This is evident where you write "relaxed, and alert". Your mind > began to be less disturbed by mental disturbances and this created > relaxation in your mind and body. This relaxation and lessening of > mental disturbances made your mind alert. > > With tranquility as a requisite condition you developed happiness. > This is evident where you write, "and a combination of great calm > and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed." Happiness is a > pleasurable feeling that arises due to the calmness and clarity > having a cumulative effect in the aggregate of feeling. > > With happiness as a requisite condition you developed > concentration. This is evident where you write, "all thinking > stopped, but clear seeing persisted." Concentration is the > unification of the mind on the meditation object to the extent that > discursive thinking stops. However, the mind will still be aware of > the meditation object. > > With concentration as a requisite condition you developed knowledge > and vision of things as they really are. This is evident where you > write, "there were no "stories", and there were no conventional > objects or things observed; but there was the very clear seeing of > the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, > sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in > a stream of experience." This is where the development of insight > (vipassana) lead to panna (wisdom) of things as they really are: > impersonal phenomena. -------------------------------------- Howard: I won't say this last is untrue. It's just a matter of degree. I do think that insight was in effect, but certainly not so great as to merit an official label! ;-) My inclination is to respond with << Wow! I'm impressed!! Who *is* that guy who did all this?? I wonder whether he offers retreats!! ;-)) >> More seriously, thanks for the explanation. At least now I understand your point. --------------------------------------- > > Now, here is where the transcendental dependent origination trails > off probably due to lack of time meditating and a need for a > deepening of the experience. > > The next stages would be: > Disenchantment > Dispassion > Emancipation > The Knowledge of Destruction > > So I believe that, according to the Buddha, you did complete the > first part of the process to enlightenment, you just need to > continue the process. I'm very excited for you! Glad that you will > have the time due to your retirement to really work on this! > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Though I have zero doubt that you way overestimate, I thank you for the encouraging words, James. As for spending my time, well, I'll actually need a lot of that retirement time to figure out how come such an "advanced meditator" is still so stuck in the mud of Samsara Swamp!! ;-)) ---------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue with humor. Hi Ken and Howard, your dialogue is delightful with that touch of humor. Nina. op 20-12-2004 01:47 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Thank you again. And thank you for not saying what you just said. > :-) In return, I will not say "Panna has to know what it is > looking for. 40016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Phil, op 19-12-2004 11:59 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I know > that you are talking about a level of concentration that I don't > aspire to, and I know and well understand the reasons why Nina and > others advise against formal meditation, I am an adviser? ;-);-) I would not use use the word formal meditation, but meditation. Did you forget the meditations for every occasion for monks and laypeople? The Buddha's excellent qualities, metta, foulness of the body, death. You do not have to plan anything, let it come by conditions. Even amidst the bustle of people sitting down for our concert at my father's house, having in between conceit and nervous suspense about the coming performance. But we can gradually learn when lobha comes up. Or clinging to the idea of self. It is difficult because we are easily misled. Thus, whatever you and others like to do, that is fine, or call it formal meditation. But find out whether and when lobha is motivating your actions. And I think that clinging to result is contra productive. But check, check for yourself. I know you do this already. Listening to the Dhamma is good, considering is good, no matter on a cushion or not, gratefulness to the Buddha is good. Direct awareness cannot be forced, we know that. But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway. Nina. 40017 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:00pm Subject: Re: Meditation Dear Nina, You stated, "But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway". I do know of some discussers who have gone further to say that one should not have a goal at all, because 'whatever happens happens'. To me that sounds like going on a holiday travel without a map and without a plan; just get on a highway ( don't care which) and drive away. What's wrong with planning, and what's wrong with goal setting in our practice of the Dhamma? I think as long as we do not cling (because of craving) to a plan that we have set with a clear goal, and as long as we are flexible and simply use them for periodic checking of the progress for errors correction puposes, then we should be doing fine. One example, my plan for the next 6 months is to do two one-hour sitting- meditation sessions every day, with the goal to try with much greater effort to abandon all hindrances during any meditation session. I I do not succeed, I'll try again and again. Please comment and advise. ( Yes, I think of you as one of my advisers. Well, even President Bush has several advisors.) Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Phil, > > op 19-12-2004 11:59 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > I know > > that you are talking about a level of concentration that I don't > > aspire to, and I know and well understand the reasons why Nina and > > others advise against formal meditation, > > I am an adviser? ;-);-) > > I would not use use the word formal meditation, but meditation. Did you > forget the meditations for every occasion for monks and laypeople? The > Buddha's excellent qualities, metta, foulness of the body, death. You do not > have to plan anything, let it come by conditions. Even amidst the bustle of > people sitting down for our concert at my father's house, having in between > conceit and nervous suspense about the coming performance. But we can > gradually learn when lobha comes up. Or clinging to the idea of self. It is > difficult because we are easily misled. > Thus, whatever you and others like to do, that is fine, or call it formal > meditation. But find out whether and when lobha is motivating your actions. > And I think that clinging to result is contra productive. But check, check > for yourself. I know you do this already. > Listening to the Dhamma is good, considering is good, no matter on a cushion > or not, gratefulness to the Buddha is good. Direct awareness cannot be > forced, we know that. But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. > We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway. > Nina. 40018 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? In a message dated 12/20/2004 3:30:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: Reading the Sutta's: I do, more and more, so you are right. I have in general no problems with scholars, many of their books did help me on my buddhistic path The reason I put my message about two or four stages was also to make the culture of this dsg a little bit less orthodix (see my message a week ago to Sarah) Metta Joop Hi Joop That's great on the reading. I'm pretty unorthodox in some ways. I think that's OK as long as it corresponds to the intent of the Suttas. But in this case I didn't find the scholarship to be well founded. You solicited comments, and since I had one, I gave it. Think of it as my Christmas present. ;-) TG 40019 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? In a message dated 12/19/2004 8:20:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Phil: "Why doesn't this and other suttas talk of six cords of sensual pleasure?" Hi Phil The Five Chords of sense pleasure are "external things" that we grasp after. They are almost like unbilical chords or conduits that keep us attached to things. The mind, perhaps is not included, because the grasping and attachment we have for mental objects had its "source" from the "Five Chords." That is, anything we can think about had to at some point been inculcated from the Five Chords. If we think about children learning, we don't just tell them to close there eyes and think about things. No. They have to experience the through the Five Chords to learn the things that latter they can think about. That makes the Five Chords more fundamental as something that "ties us" to the world. Does that make some sense? TG (BTW, the Buddha's uses the "Five Chords" in many Suttas. Its not a rarity.) 40020 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi, Tep - In a message dated 12/20/04 3:07:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Well, even President Bush has several advisors. > ======================= Uh, oh! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40021 From: Egbert Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:14pm Subject: Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities) Hi Jon, Thanks for this clarification. I see where you are coming from. There are some more musings interspersed below. > > > H: > > ... > > I am wondering about your usage of the terms "absolute" and "same". > > In the way I would use the terms, no thing can be the same as an > > absolute, and if it were, it would render the absolute relative. > > Am I misreading your usage? > > > > J: > > 'Absolute' (sometimes 'ultimate') is a translation of the Pali term > 'paramattha' from the commentaries. Let me explain my understanding of what > the term means in this context. > > > > All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in fact defines what a dhamma is). H : Sameness is a relation between two distinct, separate dhammas (things). The critical thing about relations is that their characteristic does not inhere in the things they relate. Relations inhere in a third-party observation. For example, it is not a characteristic of the sun that it is bigger than the moon. That would be a relation abstracted from a certain external viewpoint, while from another viewpoint the relation the moon is bigger than the sun may well obtain. To say that hearing is the same now as previously or elsewhere is also a relation, which characteristic does not inhere in hearing. So I think the key word in your explanatory sentence above sentence is "said" as in "are said to exhibit". That it is said is beyond doubt. That it is a problem, for me, is also beyond doubt. Relations are established by evaluation and comparison. And many hold that there is salvatory value in coming to know the characteristics of dhammas, which include, their relationship of sameness. Relations are, as I explained, established by third-party observation. Thus, of necessity, the knowledge of relationships is always brought about by imposition of a selective subject-object framework on what is experienced. As opposed to Nibbana, which is non-relational, non-comparitive, non- evaluative. I am sure that we agree that the Buddha taught Nibbana as salvation. I just cannot reconcile the later teachings of the necessity to come to know the inherent and relational characteristics of dhammas with Nibbana or a path to it. The absolute is. Full stop. That's just it. That's all there is. It ceases to be that the moment it is related or disected or known in any way. Just a little quote from the Paramatthaka Sutta, SN IV,5 "Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world? " Hope it wasn't too rambly :-) Kind Regards Herman > > > > So the dhamma that is, say, attachment is recognisably (to panna) of the > same esesntial characteristic whenever it arises, that is, for all beings at > all times, regardless of the object, intensity or other circumstances of any > particular experience. > > > > Likewise, the experience of hearing sound is in essence the same for > everyone at all moments of the bare experiencing of audible object, before > there is any recognition of the 'source' or 'meaning' or 'direction' etc of > the sound (in the texts this is referred to as attention to the general > appearance and detail of the sense-door object). >0 > > > Now saying that the moment of bare experience of the sense-door object is in > essence the same does not of course mean that everyone's experience on > hearing the 'same' sound is subjectively identical, since what we mean by an > 'experience' in this context is not the actual moment of hearing of sound > but later mind-door moments or processes during which the previously > experienced audible data is processed (i.e., attention is paid to the > general appearance and detail). > > > > In short, 'absolute' has a specific meaning in the context, so whether or > not one agrees with the choice of term, it needs to be considered in that > light. > > > > H: > > And what is to be said about the visual experiences of a colour- > > blind being and a not colour blind being sitting in a room with > > every surface painted red? I can see that whatever is experienced > > individually is absolutely experienced, but in which way are their > > experiences the same? > > > > J: > > The same can be said about this as can be said about different moments of > visual experience by the same person: the moments of bare sense- door > experience share the same essential characteristic, namely, the experience > of visible object through that doorway. > > > > Hoping that this clarifies the usage of the term 'absolute'. Not to be > thought of in terms of its usage in other contexts. > > > > Jon > > 40022 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas an... Hi, Herman and Jon - I suspect this thread is critically important, and extremely difficult. I'mnot certain that 'paramattha' doesn't have multiple meanings. One of these is "ultimate" in the sense of "primitive" or "irreducible". Another is "absolute" in the sense of "non-relative". These are not at all the same. Nagarjuna, BTW, describes the Buddha as the teacher of relativity. It does seem to me that relativity, dependency, and emptiness are interrelated, and lie at the core of the Dhamma. Where "absolute" fits in I'm not at all sure. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/20/04 4:21:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for this clarification. I see where you are coming from. > There are some more musings interspersed below. > > > > > > > >H: > > > >... > > > >I am wondering about your usage of the terms "absolute" > and "same". > > > >In the way I would use the terms, no thing can be the same as an > > > >absolute, and if it were, it would render the absolute relative. > > > >Am I misreading your usage? > > > > > > > >J: > > > >'Absolute' (sometimes 'ultimate') is a translation of the Pali term > >'paramattha' from the commentaries. Let me explain my > understanding of what > >the term means in this context. > > > > > > > >All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same > esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in > fact defines what a dhamma is). > > > H : > Sameness is a relation between two distinct, separate dhammas > (things). The critical thing about relations is that their > characteristic does not inhere in the things they relate. Relations > inhere in a third-party observation. > > For example, it is not a characteristic of the sun that it is bigger > than the moon. That would be a relation abstracted from a certain > external viewpoint, while from another viewpoint the relation the > moon is bigger than the sun may well obtain. > > To say that hearing is the same now as previously or elsewhere is > also a relation, which characteristic does not inhere in hearing. > > So I think the key word in your explanatory sentence above sentence > is "said" as in "are said to exhibit". > > That it is said is beyond doubt. That it is a problem, for me, is > also beyond doubt. Relations are established by evaluation and > comparison. And many hold that there is salvatory value in coming to > know the characteristics of dhammas, which include, their > relationship of sameness. > > Relations are, as I explained, established by third-party > observation. Thus, of necessity, the knowledge of relationships is > always brought about by imposition of a selective subject-object > framework on what is experienced. > > As opposed to Nibbana, which is non-relational, non-comparitive, non- > evaluative. I am sure that we agree that the Buddha taught Nibbana > as salvation. I just cannot reconcile the later teachings of the > necessity to come to know the inherent and relational > characteristics of dhammas with Nibbana or a path to it. > > The absolute is. Full stop. That's just it. That's all there is. It > ceases to be that the moment it is related or disected or known in > any way. > > Just a little quote from the Paramatthaka Sutta, SN IV,5 > > "Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up > (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those > who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not > [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to > either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another > existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on > investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the > seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. > That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be > identified in the world? " > > Hope it wasn't too rambly :-) > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40023 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:49pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Sarah and Howard, Seeing as I managed to loose a few people at this point below, I better explain some more :-) .... > Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. ... S::-/ I don't follow. --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure either, Herman. --------------------------------------- In this explanation, I'll refer to sound only, because it's easy to type :-) Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing. As experience, it is one/not-different. Dissected sound is not an experience, it is thinking, it is reflexive, it is consciousness of (selected and expired) consciousness. As components, sound as separate from hearing as separate from consciousness as separate from knowing do not happen as experience, they happen as thoughts of relations that in reality are one. I hope that's a bit clearer, but I'm happy to persevere :-) All the best Herman 40024 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi, Howard - > > > Well, even President Bush has several advisors. > > > Uh, oh! ;-)) > May I ask how you understand that sentence? What do you think it really means? ;-(| Regards, Tep ======== 40025 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Dear Sarah (and Suravira et al.), ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau > I'd > just like to mention that he has made it clear before that he is Charles > Clifford, mentioned the website and reasons for it, the meaning of his > (new) name and also more on his understanding of Mahayana/Theravada. OOPS--Sorry! This highlights my failure to keep up with the list, my heartfelt apologies all around... > (I > just mention this in case there's any suggestion that Suravira hasn't been > 'upfront' with us here). I'm truly sorry if my message suggested this--he seemed perfectly 'up front', I was just carried away by curiosity re. his moniker, which led to my unfortunate proliferations and speech... Given my inability to keep up with the flow of messages, I think I should just lurk until I'm able to pay proper attention. To Charles or Suravira or by any other name, really my sincere apologies--I won't bother you again. mike 40026 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:25pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/20/04 5:56:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Sarah and Howard, > > Seeing as I managed to loose a few people at this point below, I better > explain some more :-) > > .... > >Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. > ... > S::-/ I don't follow. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not sure either, Herman. > --------------------------------------- > > > In this explanation, I'll refer to sound only, because it's easy to type > :-) > > Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Hey, that's sure clearer now!! ;-)) Actually, I do believe I get you now. I believe that what you may be saying is the following: Sound, as phenomenon (i.e., experiential reality) and not as the physicist's rarefaction and compaction of molecules, is never unheard, nor is there hearing without sound. They are inseparable aspects of a single reality that is neither more nor less than the sound and its experiential presence. It seems that you are saying that sounds, sights, bodily sensations, etc are nondual experiential realities, without separation of knowing from known, and that this is clear to you. ------------------------------------------- As experience, it is> > one/not-different. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I'm a little bit more inclined to say "not-two" than to say "one". I say that, because for me the sound and its experiential presence are inseparable but yet not identical. I think of inside and outside surfaces of a box - inseparable (neither exists without the other), yet not the same. I distinguish between non-duality and monism. ------------------------------------------ > Dissected sound is not an experience, it is thinking, it is reflexive, > it is consciousness of (selected and expired) consciousness. As > components, sound as separate from hearing as separate from > consciousness as separate from knowing do not happen as experience, they > happen as thoughts of relations that in reality are one. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes. In auditory experience, there is just the sound. Experientially, there is no distinction between the sound and its presence. We can truthfully say "There was just the sound." But doesn't that also say there was just the presence of sound? And what is experiential presence other than consciousness? The slogan 'not-two' gets my vote. ;-) The reality is such that the mutual dependence of the sound and the consciousness of the sound is such as to make each of them empty, each nothing-in-and-of-itself. -------------------------------------- > > I hope that's a bit clearer, but I'm happy to persevere :-) > > All the best > > > Herman > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40027 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi, Tep - In a message dated 12/20/04 7:09:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Hi, Howard - > > > > >>Well, even President Bush has several advisors. > >> > > Uh, oh! ;-)) > > > > > May I ask how you understand that sentence? What do you think it > really means? ;-(| > > > Regards, > > Tep > > ======================== I was just fooling around, Tep. :-) I wasn't adopting any particular position with regard to the virtues or deficits of the President, his policies, or his advisers. It is simply that the U.S. populace is rather strongly split when it comes to this President, with few opinions falling in the middle of the extremes of slavish approval and livid hatred. So, for those with opposite perspectives, any association of an "adviser" with Bush's advisers would induce quite opposite responses! ;-) I found that fact amusing. That's all. It was just a "throw-away line" on my part, and nothing of any import at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40028 From: Frank Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:08pm Subject: the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version (delurking for a few nanoseconds) I was overjoyed when I found out Jeff (from jhanas@yahoogroups) transcribed the booklet into a free pdf file. It still boggles my mind that very mediocre and horrible books on Buddhism are international bestsellers, while many of the truly excellent books and articles on Buddhism authored by eminent cultivators are available for free, under promoted, and sadly, under-read. you can get the free ebook here: http://www.4nobletruths.com/exceptional_ebooks/jhanas_brahm.htm (I recently purchased this domain name and webhosting service with high bandwidth and storage) Or on Jeff's website (search for brahmavamso + "the jhanas" in the message archive at jhanas@yahoogroups) Greetings to old friends on the list, Happy Holidays, much metta, and may you experience abundant fruits from your meditative practice. (re-lurking and concentrating my efforts on my right concentration and right effort...) ===== frank@4... 40029 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:27pm Subject: MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > OOPS--Sorry! This highlights my failure to keep up with the list, my > heartfelt apologies all around... …. S:No need for any apologies – it’s not easy for anyone to keep up with the list all the time or keep track of members. One of those posts I linked you too showed one of my big gaffes when I got Suravira (then Charles shortened to Chuck) mixed up with another Charles, also shortened to Chuck who recently mentioned he’d be visiting B.Bodhi. Like you, I hope Suravira (and the other Chuck)adds more as you suggested for clarification. …. > Given my inability to keep up with the flow of messages, I think I > should > just lurk until I'm able to pay proper attention. …. S: On the contrary, if you post more, you’ll be bound to pay more attention;-). Either way of course, proper attention (yoniso manasikara)fortunately doesn’t depend or not depend on our making any gaffes. I remember feeling embarrassed when I realised I’d got the Chucks mixed up, but even at such a time there can be wise attention and awareness of such embarrassment, conceit and other unwholesome qualities – none of them ‘Me’ fortunately;-). Whilst on this subject of defilements, I was interested in your comments to Howard about ‘infections’. You mentioned that as phassa and vedana are ‘universals’ , they arise ‘with cittas that are defiled by akusala cetasikas such as moha and lobha etc’ and that you see ‘it is the citta that is defiled, not the cetasikas’ and that phassa and vedana are not defilements here. Surely, when the universals such as phassa and vedana arise with akusala cittas, they are akusala and their qualities are inherently different from those arising with sobhana cittas? In other words, they are of the same jati as the cittas and other cetasikas they arise with and therefore vary considerably accordingly.In other words, phassa and vedana can be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya even though they still have the common characteristics of contacting or feeling. (In the section on vedana from ‘Cetasikas’ there were some examples such as how the pleasant feeling accompanying cittas rooted in lobha is quite different from the pleasant feeling accompanying cittas rooted in generosity). Furthermore, I understand the cetasikas to condition each other as well as the citta they accompany and anusayas (latent defilement tendencies) to be carried by the accompanying cetasikas (not just those listed under anusayas such as greed or conceit), as well as by the cittas. For example, when greed accumulates, there is also the tendency to have a certain kind of pleasant feeling on account of certain objects and for sanna and phassa to mark and contact these objects at the same time, all conditioning each other by sahajata paccaya I believe. Mike, I’d be very glad for any comments you might add here – it’s not a simple matter at all. Also, you mentioned’ the correlation between the (akusala) javana process, akusala kamma and pa.ticcasamuppaada. The second link, sankhara, refers to abhisankhara or kamma of the degree of kamma patha that can bring results of the degree of rebirth consciousness. This is the condition for vinnana or concsciousness of course. But kamma cannot bring its resuilt without the assistance of many other conditions, particularly decisive support condition and this of course is the way that accumulated latent tendencies perpetuate or accumulate in the flow of cittas, including vipaka cittas. Have I missed the point? There’s a lot of great detail in ch 6 of Dispeller, Classification of the Structure of Conditions. Please let me know if I’ve missed your points at all or if anything here seems questionable or wrong! I always value your comments and opinions of course., so don’t retreat into lurker-land!! Metta, Sarah ======= 40030 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version Hi Frank, Well, even though the e-add looks different, we've only ever had one Frank I remember and here you sound like 'our Frank: --- Frank wrote: > > (delurking for a few nanoseconds) .... S: ;-) ;-)Can't you stay just a little bit l-o-n-g-e-r? ... > I was overjoyed when I found out Jeff (from > jhanas@yahoogroups) transcribed the booklet into a > free pdf file. It still boggles my mind that very > mediocre and horrible books on Buddhism are > international bestsellers, while many of the truly > excellent books and articles on Buddhism authored by > eminent cultivators are available for free, under > promoted, and sadly, under-read. > > you can get the free ebook here: > > http://www.4nobletruths.com/exceptional_ebooks/jhanas_brahm.htm > (I recently purchased this domain name and webhosting > service with high bandwidth and storage) ... Thanks for the info and link. As for the 'mediocre and horrible'best-sellers - well, you'd know the reasons and conditions as well as any of us. ... > Greetings to old friends on the list, Happy Holidays, > much metta, and may you experience abundant fruits > from your meditative practice. > > (re-lurking and concentrating my efforts on my right > concentration and right effort...) ... S: thx for the good wishes, Frank. Hope life and practice in Hawaii are going well for you. If we can persuade you to join in Howard's current meditation thread and/or other jhana threads such as the B.Bodhi one, I'd be very glad to hear your input. In any case, best wishes for the holidays and thx for dropping by with your recommendation. Look f/w to anymore;-). Metta, Sarah p.s I'm still Astanga-ing (Mysore style)most early mornings. How about you? ============================================================ 40031 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:56pm Subject: Re: MIke- Wise attention & Infections : -> Hello MIke and Sarah, I relate to this "lurkers' dilemma", so smiled when I read this post Mike. For me, your posts are pleasing to read and helpful, so I join with Sarah here and ask you not to lurk for too long. It is hard for me to keep up with all the posts, and when I do read one that I want to reply to, I often take a while to construct my comment and by then it seems too late. It is wonderful that we are all different, just imagine if we were all prolific posters.......my head would surely explode! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Mike, > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > OOPS--Sorry! This highlights my failure to keep up with the list, my > > heartfelt apologies all around... > …. > S:No need for any apologies – it's not easy for anyone to keep up with the > list all the time or keep track of members. ...snip.... > > Given my inability to keep up with the flow of messages, I think I > > should > > just lurk until I'm able to pay proper attention. > …. > S: On the contrary, if you post more, you'll be bound to pay more > attention;-). Either way of course, proper attention (yoniso > manasikara)fortunately doesn't depend or not depend on our making any > gaffes. .....snip..... Please let me know if I've missed your points at > all or if anything here seems questionable or wrong! I always value your > comments and opinions of course., so don't retreat into lurker- land!! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 40032 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:29pm Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hello Howard and Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jonothan Abbott" wrote: > Hi, Howard > > > > The passage that follows, taken from Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'Roots of > Existence'translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta, has I think a direct > bearing on your comments relating to the question of dhammas bearing their > own characteristics. > > > > ******************* > > Sutta: "the exposition of the root of all things" (sabbadhamma) > > > > Cy: Here the word [dhamma] occurs in the sense of things endowed with a > > specific nature. This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own > > characteristics, thus they are dhammas" (attano lakkha.na"m dhaarentii ti > > dhammaa). > .....snip....... > Howard: At the level of paramattha dhammas, there are just the dhammas, not > > characteristics of them. If there is a dhamma and also a characteristic of > the dhamma that is not the dhamma itself, and if the characteristic is not > imagined - if it is a reality, then that characteristic must be either a > rupa, a citta, a cetasika, or nibbana according to Abhidhamma.This kind of > close "quantum reality" analysis, Jon, just falls apart the deeper we get > into it. We are talking in all this great detail about something we have no > direct experience with whatsoever as though we *know* what we are talking > about. But when it all starts to dissolve as the analysis gets too fine, we > ought to take that as a warning, I think, and back off a bit. > Azita: Isn't it interesting that each person's understanding is different. You see, for me, none of this falls apart but becomes clearer as 'the deeper we get into it'. Instead of using the royal 'we' Howard, you could maybe make what's called 'I' statements. You see, when you include everyone in your understanding of how things are, then its kind of hard to have a fruitful discussion, IMHO. For me, it does not 'dissolve' and therefore why would I take it as a warning and back off - man, its just starting to get interesting :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 40033 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:44pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 79- Volition/cetanaa (i) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Eights, Chapter IV, §10, Very trifling) about different results which are produced by akusala kammas. The ‘very trifling result’ which is mentioned in the sutta is the unpleasant result which arises in the course of one’s life. We read: ... -Monks, taking life, when pursued, practised, increased, brings one to hell, to an animal’s womb, to the Peta realm1; what is the very trifling result of taking life is the shortening of a man’s life. Monks, stealing, when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is a man’s loss of wealth. Monks, fleshly lusts when pursued…, bring one to hell…; the very trifling result is a man’s rivalry and hatred. Monks, lying when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is the slandering and false-speaking for a man. Monks, backbiting, when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is the breaking up of a man’s friendships. Monks, harsh speech, when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is an unpleasant noise for a man. Monks, frivolous talk, when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is unacceptable speech for a man. Monks, drinking strong drink, when pursued, practised, increased, brings one to hell, to an animal’s womb, to the Peta realm; what is the -very trifling result of drinking strong drink is madness for a man. ... When kusala kamma patha is performed, kusala cetanå “wills” kusala, and it also coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies. Kusala cetanå is capable of producing its appropriate result later on in the form of rebirth in a happy plane or it can produce its result in the course of life in the form of pleasant experiences through the senses. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40034 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Azita - In a message dated 12/21/04 2:32:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > Hello Howard and Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jonothan Abbott" > wrote: > >Hi, Howard > > > > > > > >The passage that follows, taken from Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'Roots of > >Existence'translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta, has I think a > direct > >bearing on your comments relating to the question of dhammas > bearing their > >own characteristics. > > > > > > > >******************* > > > >Sutta: "the exposition of the root of all things" (sabbadhamma) > > > > > > > >Cy: Here the word [dhamma] occurs in the sense of things endowed > with a > > > >specific nature. This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own > > > >characteristics, thus they are dhammas" (attano lakkha.na"m > dhaarentii ti > > > >dhammaa). > > > .....snip....... > > >Howard: At the level of paramattha dhammas, there are just the > dhammas, not > > > >characteristics of them. If there is a dhamma and also a > characteristic of > >the dhamma that is not the dhamma itself, and if the characteristic > is not > >imagined - if it is a reality, then that characteristic must be > either a > >rupa, a citta, a cetasika, or nibbana according to Abhidhamma.This > kind of > >close "quantum reality" analysis, Jon, just falls apart the deeper > we get > >into it. We are talking in all this great detail about something we > have no > >direct experience with whatsoever as though we *know* what we are > talking > >about. But when it all starts to dissolve as the analysis gets too > fine, we > >ought to take that as a warning, I think, and back off a bit. > > > > Azita: Isn't it interesting that each person's understanding is > different. You see, for me, none of this falls apart but becomes > clearer as 'the deeper we get into it'. > > Instead of using the royal 'we' Howard, you could maybe make > what's called 'I' statements. You see, when you include everyone in > your understanding of how things are, then its kind of hard to have a > fruitful discussion, IMHO. > > For me, it does not 'dissolve' and therefore why would I take it > as a warning and back off - man, its just starting to get > interesting :-) > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita > ================================= I don't mean to back off from *looking* closely. I think it is important to look as closely and carefully as one can. When I do so, what seemed solid and self-existent disappears as such. When I look more and more closely with reasoning, however, with the intention of making an ultimate analysis, there is a different sort of falling apart. The reasoning itself falls apart, and dissolves into convoluted contradictions. I very much believe in the mind's capacity to directly see what is what, exactly as it is. That capacity, that perfect congnitive functioning is what I understand by 'wisdom'. And I think that one way to get to it is to reach the limit of reasoning - to reach the point that the reasoning falls apart, with no explanation whatsoever working. With metta, Howard P.S. There! Not one "we"! ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40035 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Dear Joop, Back to our thread here.. --- jwromeijn wrote: > Thanks for your kind letter to me. I will react on two topics: > > 1 Is sabhava, translated as self-nature, not a form of atta-belief ? … S: Could well be – it would depend on the translator’s and reader’s understanding of the term. …. > That was my question, based on the wellknown article of Karunadasa. … S: So sometimes we have to look at different translations and discuss more about the term itself as you’ve been doing. For myself, the more I read the Tipitaka and Pali commentaries, the more I know that whatever the translation of particular terms, there is definitely no suggestion of there being any atta in the original texts themselves. However, some writers can read the Abhidhamma in Pali and still be convinced there is an atta. So it all comes back to our own understanding when we read and consider. I think these particular questions on sabhava only arise for those who are familiar with the Mahayana teachings where it has other connotations. … > have already reacted on the answer a year ago of Nina, because > Christine and Ken told me this discussion has alreay been in the dsg. > In this place I say: when Nina is right and sabhava > means 'characteristics' than I have no problem, I even think it can > than even better be translated with 'properties' of dhammas in the > same way that in physics particles like an electron have properties. …. S: That’s fine. I remember we discussed different translations before. ‘distinct nature’ or attributes/properties…. …. > But like the Mahayana-term 'Buddha-Nature' also the term 'self- > nature' mades me suspicous: that the very strong and many time > unconscious working atta-belief in the dominant Hindu culture of > India has been working, and even has influenced commentators. (I > don't have his books with me now but I think Kalupahana has > influenced me in this topic). … S: The problem as I see it is not with the ancient commentaries, but the modern interpretations of them. I don’t think Kalupahana helps in this regard from what has been posted here. Here’s a quote from Vism 1, n14 which I like and which is relevant to other threads: “ ‘When there is impingement of door and object’: what is intended is: when a visible datum as object has come into the eye’s focus. “One sees”: one looks (oloketi); for when the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its material support is disclosing (obhaasente) by means of the special quality of its support a visible datum as object that is assisted by light (aaloka), then it is said that a person possessed of that sees the visible datum. And here the illuminating is the revealing of the visible datum according to its individual essence (sabhava), in other words, the apprehending of it experientially (paccakkhato).” …. > 2 What is an orthodox Theravadan view? >You are really to humble > talking about your limited understan?ing. … S: It’s not meant to be humble at all. Just the truth, but better not to think of ‘mine’ or anyone’s – just dhammas which arise and fall away. …. > - Perhaps it's not nice of nice but exact talking about limited > understanding of a 'normal' human being belongs to orthodoxy. To me > that term means that there is a big body of knowledge existing > outside individual human beings to which I (not enlightened) can only > partly get access. … S: This is true….we can only ever get a little ‘access’ or taste of the Buddha’s wisdom Even the great arahants’ understanding was limited in comparison. … > - A body of knowledge in the second place that can no more get > changed, not under the influence of new empirical facts and not under > the infuence of deeper insight; in one of my first messages I said I > need a new citta (the 90/122 to to say), a 'social citta', with the > content "being aware of and feeling connected with another sentient > being, especially with another human being". I got the impression > that proposing a new citta, or proposing a change in the system of > the 28 (?) rupa's is not possible. …. S: No reason why we can’t add a Joop social citta 90/122;-) I think that when we understand more about Joop social citta, we’ll find it is covered by others, like the way we find kanti (patience) is included in viriya (energy). But it takes more reflecting and considering and awareness to know. By understanding more about dhammas as anatta, we understand others better and see that regardless of wealth or poverty, social status and so on, there are pleasant and unpleasant experiences all the time for everyone through the sense doors. Because of the defilements, there are also lots and lots of stories and further clinging and aversion towards them. We’re all in the same boat in this regard, as Phil always says. So the development of awareness and wisdom lead to more understanding, metta and sympathy for others and more Joop social cittas;-). …. > - In the third place is, in general terms, an orthodox view a 'greedy > view': difficult to be a partly Theravadin and combine that with > ideas of Mahayana, natural science and agnosticism. Of course it is > possible in this DSG, you have assured me but still it is difficult > with so much orthodoxy in the dsg that I think many times: I don't > belong in this Forum. …. S: I’m glad Herman gave a kind answer to this and that you’ve said you won’t be raising it again;-). Unless we’ve reached the stage of stream-entry, there are bound to be wrong views, mixed up views and off-track views arising. …. > - In the fourth place the discussions don't have enough a 'historical > dimension', perhaps that is something beling to the Indian culture. > It is nearly denied that there is any difference between the > Teachings of the Buddha and the Abhidhamma, that there is any > difference between the Tipitaka and the commentaries. …. S: I can only answer for myself and say I don’t find any difference or problem in this regard, but I’m happy to look at anything you’ve read and wish to raise along these lines. …. >And when it is > not denied it is found found important that and why such differences > existed. To me there is an analogy between historical processes and > individual processes so it's not just an intellectual but also a > spiritual need to know the history of ideas. …. S: Again, I think the problem is more one of interpretation than actually existing in the texts. But please raise anything of concern (and we’ll probably be able to direct you to a section of the archives or U.P. where it’s been discussed at length before;-). You’d have loved all the discussions with Michael B before. …. > > That's enough for this moment, I think. > In another post, to Alan, I have said some things about insight > meditation. …. S: Thank you. I saw that. Just keep raising your concerns and issues, Joop. No need to give us orthodox labels;-). Metta, Sarah ======== 40036 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The jhaanas and the Lay Disciples Dear Alan, --- AlanLam wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for the kind respond. It is better late then never. > > I am happy with your respond, as I have no knowledge of Pali language > at all. I am just a pure cultivator. I spoke from just my Vipassana > experience only. …. S: I understand. I was very glad to read your comments. My point was just that we read particular terms in translation such as ‘secluded’ very much according to our understanding of ‘vipassana experience’. If we have the idea that we need to go to isolated spots or sit in a particular posture or concentrate on a special object in order to have ‘vipassana experience’, this is how we will read such passages. Sometimes, reflecting further on the real meaning of particular terms such as seclusion or detachment (viveka) can help us to understand the meaning of vipassana experience more deeply I think. I hope you’ll contribute more on these threads. …. > On Khun Sujin, my friend being the nephew, from the 1st mother who > has passed away. He is the oldest among the children. I heard they > have made an arrangement to meet for New year Dinner gathering. …. S: I think you mean he is the son of K.Sujin’s elder sister. I remember him when he was a school boy;-). Now some of the family members are becoming more interested in the Dhamma I know. …. > > I used to hear from him about his Aunt's Dharma activites and another > E-Sangha member that visit the centre once or twice a year to discuss > dharma activities. But no, I did not and have not visit to the centre as > yet. I do presumed I will do so most probably after this year then. … S: Sukin has given you his phone number and you might like to go along with him. You’ll be most welcome. We’ll also put a message on the list when we’re able to visit next from Hong Kong. I’m glad Chris re-introduced herself to you here as well;-). Metta, Sarah ======= 40037 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:16am Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Howard, This is very good, very useful. > > Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Hey, that's sure clearer now!! ;-)) Actually, I do believe I get you now. I believe that what you may be saying is the following: Sound, as phenomenon (i.e., experiential reality) and not as the physicist's rarefaction and compaction of molecules, is never unheard, nor is there hearing without sound. They are inseparable aspects of a single reality that is neither more nor less than the sound and its experiential presence. It seems that you are saying that sounds, sights, bodily sensations, etc are nondual experiential realities, without separation of knowing from known, and that this is clear to you. ------------------------------------------- As experience, it is> > one/not-different. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I'm a little bit more inclined to say "not-two" than to say "one". ------ Herman : Not-two also has my vote for sure!! Thanks and Kind Regards Herman I say that, because for me the sound and its experiential presence are inseparable but yet not identical. I think of inside and outside surfaces of a box - inseparable (neither exists without the other), yet not the same. I distinguish between non-duality and monism. ------------------------------------------ > Dissected sound is not an experience, it is thinking, it is reflexive, > it is consciousness of (selected and expired) consciousness. As > components, sound as separate from hearing as separate from > consciousness as separate from knowing do not happen as experience, they > happen as thoughts of relations that in reality are one. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes. In auditory experience, there is just the sound. Experientially, there is no distinction between the sound and its presence. We can truthfully say "There was just the sound." But doesn't that also say there was just the presence of sound? And what is experiential presence other than consciousness? The slogan 'not-two' gets my vote. ;-) The reality is such that the mutual dependence of the sound and the consciousness of the sound is such as to make each of them empty, each nothing-in-and-of-itself. 40038 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version Frank, It is way cool to hear from you. Truth be known, if you are the Frank I think you are (Frank K), I have often wondered how you are faring. I am glad to see you are maintaining your strong resolution. Be well Herman 40039 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I had problems with some of this. Starting with # 4... Are you saying > that > Stream Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ? That's > what it > sounds like. Only the "grossest" types of false views are eradicated by > the > Stream Entrant: False-belief in Self, skeptical doubt, and attachment to > rules > and ritual. … S: KenH is addressing this point with you. Yes I am saying that ‘Stream Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ‘. All false views are based on self-view, so once this is eradicated, all other false views are eradicated too. We read the same texts, so no need to give you references;-). …. > However, you proceed and do the exact same thing that you criticise > Suravira > for doing. You claim that: -- "He taught us to develop understanding > and > awareness > of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear." … S: It all depends on whether our comments are in accord with the Buddha’s teaching or not and it’s fine to question each other on this;-). I was picking up on Suravira’s use of paramattha dhammas when he referred to ‘within the conceptual perspective……realizing the nature of paramattha dhammas’. So I knew the terminology was not an issue for him (He’d used ‘paramattha’ throughout his post in fact. If I had been writing to a Sutta Man like yourself, I would have used khandhas or dhatus instead;-). …. >No he did not > teach > that. That is your interpretation. The Buddha never said (according to > any > record I know of) that -- "I want you to develop awareness and > understanding of > paramattha dhammas directly when they appear." If he had said that, I'd > be > agreeing with you 100%. Since he didn't say that, I'm not agreeing with > you > 100%. …. S: Fair enough, I do appreciate that the term itself is like raising a red flag for many. If I say that the Buddha taught us to develop understanding and awareness of the dhatus/ayatanas/khandhas directly when they appear, do you still take issue? I had already started my post by saying that ‘absolute reality (paramattha dhamma) refers to what truly arises and falls at this very moment as we speak. The words are not important, but seeing, hearing, like, dislike, feeling and so on are all examples.’ S22:23 Full Understanding “Bhikkhus, I will teach you things that should be fully understood…….. ….Form…..feeling…perception…volitional formations…consciousness…” Whether we refer to them as khandhas or paramattha dhammas should not cause any particular difficulties, should it? … > After the painstaking manner in which the dhamma was preserved > and recorded > by the Bhikkhus, and who ever else had a hand in preserving them...let's > > please not go putting words into the Buddha's mouth that he did not > state. … S: I’m sorry to have given any offence here. Now if those key disciples who preserved and recorded the dhamma referred to any teaching in accord with the Buddha’s word as being the Buddha’s word, is there really any issue here? For example, various commentaries and Abhidhamma texts were supposedly recited at the first councils, but all attributed to the Buddha himself directly or indirectly. I believe it is a showing of our respect for the Buddha that we point out that anything we say in accordance with his Teachings has not come about as a result of our own discovery. (I once raised this point with Krishnamurti, but that’s another story;-)). … > It is fine that you believe the intent of the Buddha was to teach us to: > > develop understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly > when they > appear. That's fine if that's what you believe. But it should be > stated in > that manner...i.e., that: -- "I believe" the intent of the Buddha was > to....etc., etc. That way the truth is "preserved." Because when you > say that the > Buddha taught us to "develop awareness of paramattha dhammas" etc. > That's, not a > true statement. It may or may not be a fact, but its not a true > statement. …. S: Ok. Please take it that all my statements start with a ‘I believe…’ As I said, if I’m writing to someone who is already in agreement with the use of terms as Suravira is, I’m more likely to take a few short-cuts, especially when I'm a little rushed like now. I did pause momentarily when I wrote the sentence as I knew it would not be acceptable to some like yourself, but I had a lot of points I wished to cover in the post. I’m glad you’ve picked it up for further discussion here. …. > Since the Buddha didn't even use the term "paramattha dhamma" (to my > knowledge), it is only your belief that was his intent or the way he > wanted Dhamma > understood. …. S: I don’t think I’m relying on my beliefs at all. When we read the commentaries like the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, it’s very clearly spelled out that paramattha dhamma refers to citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Period. …. > My feeing is that what the Buddha said, he said for a reason, and what > he > didn't say, he didn't say for a reason. The Buddha could have easily > catagorized > the Dhamma into paramattha dhammas if that was his intent. In my view, > it > was much harder to not catagorze the dhamma in that manner. And since > he didn't > didn't catagorize dhamma in that manner, it raises a "red flag" when > people > not only state that he meant to do it that way, but actually put the > words into > his mouth as "doing it that way." …. S: I think this has been addressed. I assure you I wasn’t intending to raise any red flags. …. > The Buddha did teach about elements, he did teach about aggregates, and > to > say he did would be fine. But he did not teach about paramattha > dhammas. The > latter is an interpretive view. …. S: So anytime the commentaries or any of us here refer to paramattha dhammas, please read elements or aggregates (adding nibbana if appropriate). I’ll certainly try to remember not to use the term if I’m addressing you, TG …. > I'd be interested in your comments because I think both you and I and > everyone in this group are interested in the truth and the most > effective way to go > about eliminating suffering. Different methods work better for > different > people and that's fine (even though I know mine is the best.) ;-) But > it would > lend credence to those who like the paramattha dhamma idea to > understand, that > teaching in that manner is at the stage of commentarial interpretation, > and > not the actual teaching of the Buddha. It would be wonderful if it > would be > treated as such. That doesn't make it less right or wrong, but it does > "preserve the truth." (Nice Sutta on Preserving the truth in Majjhima > Nikaya.) :-) …. TG, you’ve mentioned your great respect for the Vism and I know you’re familiar with other commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Are you saying that it is wrong to suggest these clarifications are the Buddha’s teaching? I think there’s more to address here. Pls do quote from the sutta too. Metta, Sarah ===== 40040 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? Hi Joop, Like the Neases and Abbotts (Mrs) of the world I too am fallible. A silly way to introduce a post, but I'm just wanting to post a link which has probably been posted many times, and you've probably read the essay anyway. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/response.html Well, after all that, it is "A Buddhist Response to Contemporary Dilemmas of Human Existence" by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. My quick review is that it was an excellent read, obviously written by a very sound scholar, and in no way a "pushing" of orthodoxy. It addresses your often alluded to (and accepted by me) need to synthesise the insights of the Buddha with the concepts of the 21st century into something relevant for today. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: jwromeijn [mailto:jwromeijn@y...] Sent: Monday, 20 December 2004 10:28 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Since I did my searching in Majjhima Nikaya, and the one example Christine > cited was from the Digha Nikaya, and as far as I know those are supposed to > contain the oldest Suttas, I don't see the basis for the claim of that scholar you > were citing. > > What's important is not debating this issue, but to read the Suttas on a > regular basis. (So that we don't need scholars to tell us (rightly or wrongly) > what's in the Suttas.) > > TG Hallo TG Reading the Sutta's: I do, more and more, so you are right. I have in general no problems with scholars, many of their books did help me on my buddhistic path The reason I put my message about two or four stages was also to make the culture of this dsg a little bit less orthodix (see my message a week ago to Sarah) Metta Joop 40041 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? Hi TG, Larry and all > The Five Chords of sense pleasure are "external things" that we grasp after. > They are almost like unbilical chords or conduits that keep us attached to > things. The mind, perhaps is not included, because the grasping and attachment > we have for mental objects had its "source" from the "Five Chords." That is, > anything we can think about had to at some point been inculcated from the Five > Chords. Yes, I see what you mean. The five sense are where there is that contact with the external world. THe contact of eye-base, visual object, eye-consciousness is where the fire starts. (Fire sutta) Technically speaking, from what I understand, there is nothing inherent in objects that make them more or less likely to produce unwholesome processes. It is all in our accumulations, our latent tendencies. I think of the sutta about touching poion with one's hand - there would be no harm done if there was no wound on the hand, but there *is* a wound on the hand, inevitably, for worldlings. The wound might seal up a lot faster after contact as our wisdom increases, not allowing as much poison in, but there is a wound. So it is perfectly right in a practical way to talk of the five sense cords. Still, very interesting to keep realizing more and more deeply how quickly the mind leaps from visual information to proliferate, and how we can develop wise attention, ever so gradually. (Well, maybe that's not right - we develop panna. In any case, you know what I mean.) I think of this sutta passage that I posted a few weeks back when discussing guarding the sense doors with Howard and James: "On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its signs and features. Since, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil, unwholesome states of cosciousness and grief might invade him, he practises the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty." (from MN 27:15) So the guarding here comes *after* the seeing, but before the mind "grasps at...signs and features." (I assume that only the mind can do that.) It's as if the monkey touches the monkey trap, but is able to remove his hand before it gets stuck. Five cords leading to a "wise attention" point, from which two mental door cords emerge, carrying either kusala or akusala javana cittas. Whoa, freaky man! Never mind! :) > If we think about children learning, we don't just tell them to close there > eyes and think about things. No. They have to experience the through the Five > Chords to learn the things that latter they can think about. That makes the > Five Chords more fundamental as something that "ties us" to the world. Does > that make some sense? Yes, lots of sense. Thanks. Yesterday I was feeling quite disgusted with myself about my latest backslip related to the internet, and consuming too many suttas in a thoughtless way, and I read the sutta in which the Buddha talks about the lotuses: "Bhikkhus, just as a blue, red or white lotus is born in the water and grows up in the water, but having risen up above the wayter it stands unsullied, so too the Tathagata was born in the world and grew up in the world, but having overcome the world, he dwells unsullied in the world." (sorry, I don't have the sutta number at hand.) The sutta about the monkey trap seems a bit pessimistic about our ability to learn from our sensory experience about how to see, hear, taste, smell and touch in a more wholesome way. The above sutta about the lotuses left me feeling more encouraged. Just as people who I fell hostility about are my teachers, the sensual objects that I overindulge in can come to be my teachers. Thanks also, Larry. I have to admit that I was a bit lost by the talk of raga and kama since I haven't learned about them, but thanks for taking the time to think about my question and I am glad it was fruitful for you! Metta, Phil 40042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lurking. Hi Mike, Oh no! Don't lurk!!! If you flag mails you want to answer you may not come to actually write. Nina. op 21-12-2004 02:43 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Given my inability to keep up with the flow of messages, I think I should > just lurk until I'm able to pay proper attention. 40043 From: nina Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:40am Subject: Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika Vis. 125. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of being felt should be understood, all taken together, as the feeling aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of being felt is feeling itself, according as it is said, 'It is felt, friend, that is why it is called feeling' (M.i,293). **** N: What is said about the aggregate of consciousness(Vis. XIV, 81) should be applied as well to the aggregate of feeling. There are many kinds of feeling and they are classified in many ways, but here it is said that feelings, all taken together, are classified as one group or khandha. The Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its mode of experiencing. Its nature should be characterized as being felt. First the passive is used: it is felt, in Pali: vedayita. What is felt is feeling. Then the Vis. refers to M.N. I, 43, which is a dialogue between Maha-Ko.t.thita and Saariputta. Saariputtaa explains: it feels, it feels, friend, that is why it is called feeling. In the text, after the passive, the active form (which the translator did not render) is used: it feels, it feels (vedayati vedayatiiti). It feels, but in Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb, to feel, in the third person singular. There is no subject. Thus, feeling is what is felt and it can also be said that it feels. The Tiika states: The explanation of the action should be understood as follows: there is no doer apart from the dhamma with its own characteristic (Sabhaavadhammato a~n~no kattaa natthiiti dassanattha.m kattuniddeso). As to the word therefore (tasmaa), this gives the definition of feeling, according to the Tiika. It explains: feeling experiences the flavour of the object according as this is the condition (for the experience), therefore it is called feeling (yathaapaccaya.m aaramma.narasa.m anubhavati, tasmaa vedanaati vuccatiiti). N: Why is the passive form used first in the text? This will be clearer when we consider the different kinds of feeling: pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent feeling. For example, when pleasant feeling arises, its pleasantness is felt. The Commentary to the sutta, referred to above, explains about feelings, that a following pleasant feeling experiences as object the flavour of the preceding pleasant feeling, and the same for unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. It states: These passages can remind us, that no matter how strong pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling are, there is no person, no doer, that it is merely feeling that feels. Feeling is an element devoid of self that falls away immediately. This has to be often considered, because when feeling arises we are immediately overwhelmed. **** Nina. 40044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Tep, Thank you for your sympathetic mails. Because of circumstances, I had to delay answering your forelast mail. op 20-12-2004 21:00 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: -- It is useful to know those kinds of citta that are rooted in aversion and other akusala dhamma, so that we learn to avoid them. N: Avoiding is one of the right efforts. It is keen pañña that is the foremost condition for seeing the disadvantages of akusala. Pañña can realize its true characteristic as only a condiitoned dhamma. T: It is really interesting to know that dosa can arise groundlessly -- maybe like that in a mind of a terrorist? N: Also in all of us. A slight uneasiness can arise when we stumble in the house, or a slight pain. Or the wind outside is so cold. Or the button of my coat is missing. Now your last mail. T: Please comment and advise. ( Yes, I think of you as one of my > advisers. Well, even President Bush has several advisors.) N: Howard's aside made me laugh. Adviser, no, I have no ambitions for that. Better not. A dialogue, yes, because I like your straightforward approach. The Buddha said that the Dhamma is his successor. The Dhamma helps us to develop our own understanding. There is no need to follow a teacher. Who knows whether this or that person is right? We have to be our own refuge and this attracted me to Buddhism from the beginning. I like to study the texts of the Tipitaka and I also need help from the Commentaries because we are further removed form the Buddha's time. Often the Suttas are very compact and by myself I do not get the deep meaning that is implied. I like to share what I learn as far as I am able to and that is all. T: You stated, "But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. > We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway".... > What's wrong with planning, and what's wrong with goal setting in our > practice of the Dhamma? N: Yes, we can plan as far as conditions allow. Just as Lodewijk and I planned my father's birthday party. We needed a roadmap to go by. T: I think as long as we do not cling (because of > craving) to a plan that we have set with a clear goal, and as long as we > are flexible and simply use them for periodic checking of the progress > for errors correction puposes, then we should be doing fine. N: It is good you know that we should not cling to our plan. And a goal, yes. We may have different goals. Maybe you and I should say what our goal is. I can only talk about my own goal: to develop more understanding so that I learn: all that I read in the text concerns my life at this very moment. This will help me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through the six doors. As to checking of the progress for errors correction puposes, there is something in it. Knowing that my latent tendencies are strong, correction of errors is not easy. First of all I have to know exactly when there are errors. Thinking of progress: is there not an error to begin with? As for me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions clinging and also aversion. And a lot of other kinds of akusala. I think of my poor progress, and then there is also conceit, clinging to the importance of me, me. I am important, I have to do better. Such thoughts, you know. T: One example, my plan for the next 6 months is to do two one-hour sitting- > meditation sessions every day, with the goal to try with much greater effort to abandon all hindrances during any meditation session. If I do not succeed, I'll try again and again. N: From what you write I think that you intend to temporarily suppress the hindrances through samatha. The goal and method of samatha is different from vipassana which is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears through the six doors. I find it very useful to talk first about samatha. A specific meditation subject is necessary so that the hindrances can be subdued. We read and hear a lot about the hindrances. I have an idea. Let us know the ennemy before attacking! It is useful to discuss the hindrances one by one. How do they manifest in your daily life? It is best to begin at this moment to learn more about the hindrances. In this way you can incorporate your meditation in daily life. I learnt that not only in vipassana but also in samatha sati sampajañña are needed. This means: sati and pañña, but these do not concern theory at all. Strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary also for samatha. One has to be very sure when a hindrance arises and what its characteristic is. I would suggest to talk about one hindrance at a time. This is also better for me, and I cannot always answer mails immediately, other urgent work is waiting. Nina. 40045 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Thanks for this message. Like all your messages, it was a source of illumination. --------------- <. . .> S > Could even the Buddha prevent others like Devadatta from following serious wrong views <. . .> asking K.Sujin about ways to help family members and her response was just to share and help those who were interested without any concern about whether they were particular family or friends (whom of course we are so attached to). <. . .> we can only share our understanding with those who wish to hear it ------------------- These were more than a matter of, "Yes, true, but I already knew that." :-) They allowed me to understand a little deeper. You then quoted the Salla Sutta, which I appreciated, of course, but it also gave me the chance for some nit picking: ------------ "10. The man who grieves gains nothing. He is doing no more than a foolish man who is trying to hurt himself. If a wise man does it, it is the same for him." ------------ That last sentence, the way I read it, is inconsistent with the Dhamma's momentary view of reality. Wisdom and dosa don't arise together. Two other translations found at ATI are better, I think. John D. Ireland's version is, "If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it." No other complaints, though.:-) Thanks again for the pep talk. Ken H 40046 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:10am Subject: Poetry, Negations, and Dukkha Hi, all - The more I meditate and contemplate and attempt to formulate, the more persuaded I am that only a couple modes of speech come even remotely close to adequately pointing to the way things are. These modes are 1) poetic, making use of such figures of speech as metaphor, simile, and allusions of various sorts, and 2) negative assertions, with the 2nd being primary. It seems to me that many of our positive assertions are, in the final analysis, false. Some of the most critical assertions of the Dhamma are negative. For example, "All conditioned dhammas are impermanent" does not say that conditioned dhammas change. It says that they do not remain - no conditioned dhamma remains. What, for that matter, can change even mean? Time is truly illusion. There is "now" ... period. There *are* no past moments, hence no past events, conditions, or phenomena. There is no future. It is not that "things were, but no longer are". What can "Things were" even mean, when there is only now. I tend - I would like to say "we", but Azita properly cautioned me against this - to picture "the unfolding of events" as looking through a window called "now", with a stream of images moving leftwards from an unseen future on the right, passing by the window, and continuing leftward into an unseen past on the left. But that is a misleading simile. The problem is that the only time there is is that "now" window. There is no future "on the right" and no past "on the left". There is comfort in the picture of the past on the left, because it seems that in a way the past remains. But that is false. "Once gone, as if never having been" is closer to reality, as I now see it. And when one looks at this from the perspective of a "later point" in one's life, thinking in terms of life events and in terms of people who "used to be", the sense of irremediable loss becomes powerful. Or so it increasingly seems to me. Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha said the Conquerer. He taught only dukkha and the end of dukkha. May that end be soon with us. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40047 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Nina > I am an adviser? ;-);-) Yup! I think that's safe to say. Good friends give advice. BTW, I am studying to become an adviser as well. I will take the Aromatherapy Adviser test offered by the Japan Aromotherapy Association so I may become a semi-professional "smell thief" like in that sutta you quote in ADL!!! More lobha on the way. Yipee! > > I would not use use the word formal meditation, but meditation. Did you > forget the meditations for every occasion for monks and laypeople? The > Buddha's excellent qualities, metta, foulness of the body, death. You do not > have to plan anything, let it come by conditions. Yes, but let's be honest - planning goes on. For me at least. Especially with a two-week holiday coming up. THe accumulations that lead me to wonder what I'll do with the holiday are hard to overcome. But thank you for reminding me of a wiser way. >Even amidst the bustle of > people sitting down for our concert at my father's house, having in between > conceit and nervous suspense about the coming performance. But we can > gradually learn when lobha comes up. Or clinging to the idea of self. It is > difficult because we are easily misled. It is also difficult because I get agitated, and agitation is uncomfortable. The desire arises to do something about the agitation. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to MN 19 he writes: "Excessive thinking and pondering leads to agitation. To tame and soften the mind, the Bodhisatta would enter a meditative attainment, then he would emerge from it and develop insight." I am not about to sit down and have "meditative attainments", but this "tame and soften the mind" is appealing, of course. There are simple exercises offered at Buddhanet that I may try. I say formal meditation, because they involve following a technique. We will see if it is helpful. Only one way to find out. I have read your letter to Tep about hindrances, and I will (hopefully) read it again and think of the hindrances. I'm restless these days. I knew this would result from getting my hands on the sutta anthologies. I was right. But putting the books away is not an option. Even if there is agitation and greed involved in my reading of suttas, they are so beautiful and inspiring and I find especially with soome parts of SN so soothing by their repetitive insistence on stripping away clinging to the khandas. I would be wise to stick with SN on the aggregates, but I jump around like a restless flea on a very plump and tasty dog. A wise flea settles in at one nice vein and drinks until he's well- nourished. But I am a restless flea and can't stay long enough at one vein. (I don't even know if fleas drink blood. Never mind.) Patience, I tell myself, patience. This thinking is a reality that I can be aware of here and now, and when there is awareness of one reality through one door, Phil and his stories are revealed again for what they are - concepts, not realities. Metta, Phil > Thus, whatever you and others like to do, that is fine, or call it formal > meditation. But find out whether and when lobha is motivating your actions. > And I think that clinging to result is contra productive. But check, check > for yourself. I know you do this already. > Listening to the Dhamma is good, considering is good, no matter on a cushion > or not, gratefulness to the Buddha is good. Direct awareness cannot be > forced, we know that. But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. > We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway. > Nina. 40048 From: jonoabb Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: AN III - 100 mental misconduct vs. thoughts of ill-will Hi, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: ... I've let this one sit for awhile, Jon. I like your pace of exchanging messages. Nice and easy - no need to rush. My views on the topics to follow are still so formative that ....well, it helps to write them out now and then even though they are formative. Jon: Kind of you to say so, Phil. Others have been less charitable about the pace of my replies (not anyone presently posting, I hasten to add)! Actually, I am in the middle of changing computers, OSs, and mail programs all at once, so have bits and pieces of things everywhere, and this has slowed me down even more than usual. Phil: You know, at my level of insight, it's really only rote learning to say "panna" controls the citta, but even at the level of rote learning (or "parroting" as people insist on saying - I think this term is disrespectful to Dhamma, because rote is part and parcel of bhavana in Asia, at least) it is helpful. ... Jon: In my view it's quite acceptable to re-state in one's own words things that we've come to understand at an intellectual level. I do not consider this to be parrotting or even rote learning, so nothing to be the least bit apologetic about. Those of us who see the value in the texts appreciate such reminders from the texts. So please continue! Phil: ... I have come to agree. The right effort language gave me pause, with its exertion and striving and what not. But there is not reason that we cannot be compelled to act in a seemingly intentional way by conditions. ... Jon: I think that's exactly right. We act in a seemingly intentional (controlled) way, and of course there is such a thing as intention, but it doesn't work the way we generally take it to work. It is a momentary, conditioned phenomenon like everything else. Phil: ... Well, he certainly did give some very harsh warnings about the danger of akusala, of the "If I were to die tonight" variety that warn of unfavourable rebirth. And he did use language that he surely knew would be interpreted as being prescriptive. And he is compared to a doctor at times, a doctor prescribing medicine. So the prescriptive aspect is there, defintely. ... Jon: Yes, there are many warnings given by the Buddha about the dangers of akusala, and many admonitions about the benefits of kusala. But the 'prescriptive' aspect is mainly assumed by the reader, I believe. This can always be tested by looking at specific passages. Phil: ... Yes, but when we get to the second right effort, the language sounds much more forceful - "destroys them, dispels them" etc. Jon: I think perhaps you mean 'active' rather than prescriptive here (it is the distinction between these 2 terms that I was alluding to at the end of my last post). I see this as a separate though related issue. It's precisely because we read the teaching as a 'thing to do/be done' that we tend to regard the Buddha's admonitions as being prescriptive. Here is the wording of the second padhaana: > (2) "What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any > thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may > have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to > disappear. This is called the effort to overcome. I think you'll agree that this is not prescriptive in the normal sense of the word. As to whether is describes 'something to be done', we sometimes overlook the fact that everything the Buddha taught must be understood as kusala of 1 kind or another, and not for example techniques for dealing with akusala. So here, if the kusala that is right effort arises, it will have the effect of abandoning, dispelling etc the already arise unwholesome mental state (not, if you 'try' to abandon etc unwholesome states this will be kusala). Phil: ... Thanks Jon. As you can see, I am more comfortable with a non-prescriptive interpretation of this. I think that wee-hours session with Bhikkhu Dhammadharo was very good for me. I felt fear, the unwillingness to let go of control. But that seemed to be a condition for being able to let go a bit more. A gradual process. Jon: Yes, fear is just another conditioned response. Nothing to be feared at all ;-)) Jon 40049 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,125 Dear Larry, Thanks for your extensive explanation on 'Visuddhimagga'. It is so clear that no further questions are required. As you said, 'purification' has the meaning of processing and 'purity' has the meaning of 'already clean'. If already clean, there is no need for processing. Visuddhi by its name is 'already clean'. I think at each stage, each is clean. Visuddhimagga may be 1. path of purification 2. path of purity 3. purifying path 4. purity-path 5. clean path 6. cleansing path 7. cleansed path I do not think 'words' are important when essence is understood. But when essence cannot be grasped, then there are many possibilities that deviation of idea might arise. For me, I would use 'visuddhimagga'. Vi-sud-dhi-mag-ga, these 5 syllables are not making a big word like.. Counterdecentralization, which has coun-ter-de-cen-tra-li-za-tion of 8 syllables. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: "Which one do you prefer from 2 alternatives of translation of the > meaning of 'Visuddhimagga'; 'path of purity' and 'path of > purification'?" > > Hi Htoo, > > I prefer "purification" over "purity" because purification is a process > while purity is a state or accomplishment. However, each of the seven > stages of purification could be said to be an accomplishment. > > As you know, the idea of dividing the path into 7 stages comes from the > Rathavinita Sutta, MN 24 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html There it > is said that one accomplishes each stage in turn before going on to the > next. It is also said one abandons each stage before going on to the > next. > > Ven. Matara Sri ~Nanarama writes, > > "In the case of the seven purifications, .. snip..then he can > develop the five purifications that are the 'trunk'. This is in > brief.The detail is as follows. > > L: This is where we are now in chapter XIV, "learning and questioning > about those things that are the 'soil' ", the aggregates, bases, etc., > preparatory to *studying* the purification of view. > > What are your ideas on the best way to translate "Visuddhimagga"? > > Larry 40050 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: Meditation Dear Howard, Although my thought about President Bush's advisors and their advising is not along the same line as yours, I also found it amusing how those advisors try to convince a strong leader who is fond of unilateral decision making (and at times, being pretty stubborn). Thank you for replying. Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 12/20/04 7:09:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... > writes: > > > Hi, Howard - > > > > > > > >>Well, even President Bush has several advisors. > > >> > > > Uh, oh! ;-)) > > > > > > > > > May I ask how you understand that sentence? What do you think it > > really means? ;-(| > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Tep > > > > > ======================== > I was just fooling around, Tep. :-) > I wasn't adopting any particular position with regard to the virtues > or deficits of the President, his policies, or his advisers. It is simply that > the U.S. populace is rather strongly split when it comes to this President, > with few opinions falling in the middle of the extremes of slavish approval and > livid hatred. So, for those with opposite perspectives, any association of an > "adviser" with Bush's advisers would induce quite opposite responses! ;-) I > found that fact amusing. That's all. It was just a "throw-away line" on my part, > and nothing of any import at all. > > With metta, > Howard > 40051 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are different classification systems on citta. A. Vedana classification (62 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 55 = 121) B. Hetu classification ( 18 + 2 + 22 + 47 = 89) C. Jati classification ..a) (12 + 21 + 36 + 20 = 89) ..b) (12 + 37 + 52 + 20 = 121) D. Bhumi classification ..a) (54 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 89) ..b) (54 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 121) E. Kicca classification( 1.19,2.19,3.2,4.2,5.2,6.2,7.2,8.2,9.2, 10.3,11.1,12.55,13.11,14.19) (19+19+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+1+55+11+19= 141 - overlapping 52 = 89) F. Multifunctional classification (1.2,2.8,3.9,4.2,5.68) 2+8+9+2+68= 89 G. Dvara classification (1.46,2.46,3.46,4.46,5.46,6.67 ) and many others. G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas Dvarika means 'at door'. There are 46 cittas that arise at eye-sense- door or at cakkhu dvara. These 46 cittas are 1. 1 pancadvaravajjana citta 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 4. 3 santirana cittas (2 upekkha and 1 somanassa) 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta) 6.29 kama-javana cittas( 12 akusala, 1 hasituppada, 8 mahakusala, 8 mahakiriya cittas) 7. 8 tadarammana cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas) ------- 46 cittas All these 46 cittas can arise at cakkhu dvara or eye-sense-door. In sotadvara 2 sotavinnana cittas replace cakkhuvinnana cittas and so do 2 ghanavinnana, 2 jivhavinnana, 2 kayavinnana. All other cittas are characterwise the same as in cakkhudvara vithi cittas. So there are 46 + 2 sotavinnana + 2 ghanavinnana + 2 jivhavinnana + 2 kayavinnana altogether 54 cittas can arise at 5-sense-doors. When these 54 cittas are analysed, they are all kamavacara cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40052 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Htoo, Thank you for your answer. I think everything cannot be clear, because the subject of tadaarammana citta is very intricate. About the feelings, that is clear. For me it is difficult to understand that when the object is unpleasant, the tadaaramanacittas are, in the case of humans, not akusala vipaakacittas, but kusala vipaakacittas, since they are mostly produced by the kusala kamma that produced rebirth-consciousness. But there are questions that we cannot solve. Nina. 40053 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: radio A. Sujin Dear Alan, I have some info that may interest you. You can listen to Acharn Sujin's excellent radio programs in Thai. Early morning and also in the evening. at 5.30, F.M. 31, athid until phryhad. At 6.00: AM 675, every day, thug wan. 19.30 AM 1422. (can to saw). 21.00, AM 675. The kosana is sometimes a bit long, but keep at it. All the medicines when you have a cold. I did not give you all the programs, there are more. Next to the station there are other stations that disturb, but you keep turning the knob (mun, mun) to adjust the sound. There is also a possibility to listen life to the weekend Thai discussions. Let me know how you fare, chok di, Nina. op 21-12-2004 09:53 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: to Alan > I used to hear from him about his Aunt's Dharma activites and another >> E-Sangha member that visit the centre once or twice a year to discuss >> dharma activities. But no, I did not and have not visit to the centre as >> yet. I do presumed I will do so most probably after this year then. > … > S: Sukin has given you his phone number and you might like to go along > with him. You’ll be most welcome. We’ll also put a message on the list > when we’re able to visit next from Hong Kong. I’m glad Chris re-introduced > herself to you here as well;-). 40054 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:38am Subject: Dhamma Thread (194) Dear Dhamma Friends, G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas 7. 19 dvara-vimutta cittas ( or 19 advarika cittas ) At cakkhu dvara there arise 46 cittas. So do other dvarika cittas at their specific dvara or door. At 5 dvara or 5 sense doors, altogether there are 54 cittas that can arise. All these 54 cittas are kamavacara cittas. At manodvara there can arise 67 cittas. They are 1. 1 manodvaravajjana citta 2.55 javana cittas ( 29 kama javana and 26 mahaggata javana ) 3.11 tadarammana cittas ( 3 santirana and 8 mahavipaka ) ----- 67 cittas 29 kama javana cittas are :12 akusala of 8 lobha, 2 dosa, and 2 moha ; 1 hasituppada citta ; 8 mahakusala ; 8 mahakiriya (12+1+8+8=29). 26 mahaggata javana cittas are : 5 rupakusala ; 5 rupakiriya ; 4 arupakusala ; 4 arupakiriya ; 4 magga ; 4 phala (5+5+4+4+4+4=26) 19 cittas which may be patisandhi cittas or bhavanga cittas or cuti cittas do not arise at any of 6 sense doors. They arise on their own accord and they are called dvara-vimutta cittas or door-free consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40055 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. Yes. Tadarammana kicca and cittas are intricate matters. If the object is anittharammana or unpleasant object, which is a rupa, the first vithi citta that arises is .. pancadvaravajjana citta. This is a kiriya citta. This is abyakata dhamma. This dhamma can follow akusala vipaka bhavanga citta, which is definitely the patisandhi citta of beings in 4 apaya bhmuis namely niriya or hell, tiracchanna or animal, peta or hungry ghost, asurakaya or demon. Equally this abyakata dhamma can follow kusala vipaka bhavanga citta, which is bhavanga cittas of beings in kama sugati bhumis. Foregoing citta is vipaka citta. Whatever it is the result of akusala or kusala, it is still vipaka. This vipaka bhavanga citta is abyakata dhamma. It is followed by pancadvaravajjana citta which is another abyakata dhamma. As the object is unpleasant, definitely the next arising vinnana citta is akusala vipaka citta. Still this is is vipaka citta and it is abyakata dhamma. Sampaticchana, santirana will both be akusala vipaka cittas. Still they both are vipaka cittas and they are abyakata dhamma. So it is in line with 'anantara paccaya'. Next arises manodvaravajjana citta as votthapana citta. This is kiriya citta. It is abyakata dhamma. So the last bhavanga is abyakata, pancadvaravajjana is abyakata, pancavinnana is abyakata, sampaticchana and santirana are abyakata, and votthapana citta is also abyakata dhamma. Just before javana cittas are abyakata dhamma. So votthapana citta can be followed by akusala dhamma, kusala dhamma, and abyakata dhamma. This is in line with 'anantara paccaya'. Whatever unpleasant the objects are javana cittas of arahats are always kiriya cittas and they are abyakata dhamma. For others, as their perceptions are different, they may like it (lobha-which is inappropriate..see vultures and rotten flesh), they may disgust it (dosa), they may be indifferent (moha), they may just perceive as it is (mahakusala). While bhavanga flow is colourless and also from 1st vithi citta to 5th vithi citta is also colourless, next following 7 javana cittas may be colourless in case of arahats and may be colourful in case of non-arahats. In case of colouring cittas, there are different colours. If kiriya cittas we do not need further explanation. If it is dosa cittas, then this is akusala dhamma. But this akusala cann be followed by vipaka which are abyakata dhamma. This is also in line with 'anantara paccaya'. In case of human, patisandhis are upekkha or somanassa. So tadarammana can be upekkha or somanassa. But when 7th domanassa javana citta is domanassa, it cannot be followed by somanassa tadarammana cittas. There are 6 upekkha tadarammana cittas and 5 somanassa tadarammana cittas. All 11 cittas are vipaka cittas. So it is possible that any one 11 can follow 7th domanassa javana. But vedana-wise somanassa cannot follow, I think. It has to be upekkha tadarammana and then followed by somanassa bhavanga cittas. As it is a human, if upekkha tadarammana has to arise, it would be 4 upekkha mahavipaka or 1 upekkha kusala santirana citta. How complicated! But they are interesting. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Thank you for your answer. I think everything cannot be clear, because the > subject of tadaarammana citta is very intricate. About the feelings, that is > clear. For me it is difficult to understand that when the object is > unpleasant, the tadaaramanacittas are, in the case of humans, not akusala > vipaakacittas, but kusala vipaakacittas, since they are mostly produced by > the kusala kamma that produced rebirth-consciousness. > But there are questions that we cannot solve. > Nina. 40056 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:23am Subject: [dsg] Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, > > You made some good comments here: You'll be rightly telling me I've veering off-track. > > Thanks for your feedback. > > Metta, > > Sarah Friend Sarah (and Nina), Thanks for this response. Frankly, I'm not quite sure if you are agreeing with me or not. Actually, I'm not quite sure the point you are making. My point is that "Is there seeing now?" is not a very important issue. Think about it this way: Did the Buddha see things any differently from the unenlightened? What I mean is: were his physical eyes any different, basically, from anyone else's. Did he have x-ray vision or could he see ultraviolet light? I think that the answer to this question is: no, the Buddha's physical eyes were no more extraordinary than the average human's. The thing that was extraordinary about the Buddha was his mind, not his eyes…or his ears, nose, mouth, tongue, or body. So, when you write, "This is why seeing and visible object and the other sense experiences and objects have to be known for what they are", do you actually mean "seeing" with the physical eye, or "seeing" with the mind? If you mean "seeing" with the mind, which I hope you do, then the act of physically seeing with the eyes should not be given a place of priority. In other words, the mind can be developed (tamed) with the eyes closed, contrary to what Nina wrote in this thread earlier. Metta, James 40057 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Friend Htoo, I would like to share something with you of a personal nature. This is not a spur of the moment thing, but has been brewing for quite some time. When I read your posts, often I have very unpleasant memories and a slight nausea arises. I am brought back to my school days. I was brought up in a very strict, very fundamentalist, ultra-conservative Dutch Christian sect. I was sent to a very strict, very fundamentalist, ultra-conservative school. The teaching method was rote learning under the threat of violence or abuse. This method covered all subjects. For example, each student had to learn a section of the Bible to recite from memory in front of the master every Monday morning. Depending on how poor your performance was, you were either hit, shaken about or verbally abused. If you were word perfect you were praised. Each Monday morning the nausea would rise up as you witnessed the abuse before your name was called out. Sometimes around town I see little advertising pictures or letters written in a particular way which also remind me of my maths, writing and reading classes. The teaching there was much the same, and I get a sick feeling in my stomach when I am reminded. It is quite a scary thought for me that the task of teaching children how to think and what to think is often in the hands of very ignorant people. This includes parents whose major skill in life is making babies, and who rear their offspring by simply repeating what was done to themselves. Without an understanding of the past, we are bound to repeat it. And that's the way it goes, on and on and on.... Sorry if this is a strange post. (please do not think that any of this is about you, I was regurgitating the conditions under which I learnt to think) Kind Regards Herman I was a good student. Of course, I can take no credit for that. The ability to learn is beyond control. -----Original Message----- From: htootintnaing [mailto:htootintnaing@y...] Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 2:23 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are different classification systems on citta. A. Vedana classification (62 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 55 = 121) B. Hetu classification ( 18 + 2 + 22 + 47 = 89) C. Jati classification ..a) (12 + 21 + 36 + 20 = 89) ..b) (12 + 37 + 52 + 20 = 121) D. Bhumi classification ..a) (54 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 89) ..b) (54 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 121) E. Kicca classification( 1.19,2.19,3.2,4.2,5.2,6.2,7.2,8.2,9.2, 10.3,11.1,12.55,13.11,14.19) (19+19+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+1+55+11+19= 141 - overlapping 52 = 89) F. Multifunctional classification (1.2,2.8,3.9,4.2,5.68) 2+8+9+2+68= 89 G. Dvara classification (1.46,2.46,3.46,4.46,5.46,6.67 ) and many others. G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas Dvarika means 'at door'. There are 46 cittas that arise at eye-sense- door or at cakkhu dvara. These 46 cittas are 1. 1 pancadvaravajjana citta 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 4. 3 santirana cittas (2 upekkha and 1 somanassa) 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta) 6.29 kama-javana cittas( 12 akusala, 1 hasituppada, 8 mahakusala, 8 mahakiriya cittas) 7. 8 tadarammana cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas) ------- 46 cittas All these 46 cittas can arise at cakkhu dvara or eye-sense-door. In sotadvara 2 sotavinnana cittas replace cakkhuvinnana cittas and so do 2 ghanavinnana, 2 jivhavinnana, 2 kayavinnana. All other cittas are characterwise the same as in cakkhudvara vithi cittas. So there are 46 + 2 sotavinnana + 2 ghanavinnana + 2 jivhavinnana + 2 kayavinnana altogether 54 cittas can arise at 5-sense-doors. When these 54 cittas are analysed, they are all kamavacara cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40058 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Poetry, Negations, and Dukkha Hi Howard, I like this post very much. The history of illusion spans infinity in all directions. And as you say, yet there is only now; which when not seen in terms of pasts that never were or futures that never will be, is just ....... Poetry sounds the go!! The suttas are full of it. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 1:10 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Poetry, Negations, and Dukkha Hi, all - The more I meditate and contemplate and attempt to formulate, the more persuaded I am that only a couple modes of speech come even remotely close to adequately poynting to the way things are. These modes are 1) poetic, making use of such figures of speech as metaphor, simile, and allusions of various sorts, and 2) negative assertions, with the 2nd being primary. It seems to me that many of our positive assertions are, in the final analysis, false. Some of the most critical assertions of the Dhamma are negative. For example, "All conditioned dhammas are impermanent" does not say that conditioned dhammas change. It says that they do not remain - no conditioned dhamma remains. What, for that matter, can change even mean? Time is truly illusion. There is "now" ... period. There *are* no past moments, hence no past events, conditions, or phenomena. There is no future. It is not that "things were, but no longer are". What can "Things were" even mean, when there is only now. I tend - I would like to say "we", but Azita properly cautioned me against this - to picture "the unfolding of events" as looking through a window called "now", with a stream of images moving leftwards from an unseen future on the right, passing by the window, and continuing leftward into an unseen past on the left. But that is a misleading simile. The problem is that the only time there is is that "now" window. There is no future "on the right" and no past "on the left". There is comfort in the picture of the past on the left, because it seems that in a way the past remains. But that is false. "Once gone, as if never having been" is closer to reality, as I now see it. And when one looks at this from the perspective of a "later point" in one's life, thinking in terms of life events and in terms of people who "used to be", the sense of irremediable loss becomes powerful. Or so it increasingly seems to me. Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha said the Conquerer. He taught only dukkha and the end of dukkha. May that end be soon with us. With metta, Howard 40059 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? Hi TG, Larry and all > TG The Five Chords of sense pleasure are "external things" that we > grasp after. > > They are almost like unbilical chords or conduits that keep us > attached to > > things. The mind, perhaps is not included, because the grasping > and attachment > > we have for mental objects had its "source" from the "Five > Chords." That is, > > anything we can think about had to at some point been inculcated > from the Five > > Chords. An afternote to this. This morning I found a sutta in which the Buddha does indeed refer to *six* senses as six hooks that Mara dangles for us and that we get caught on. ("The Fisherman simile" SN 35.230) In it "mental phenomena congnizable by the mind" are included amoung the six objects that are "desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing etc.." Another reminder that the Buddha in his great versatility taught to different people in different ways. Perhaps the monkey trap simile and other suttas that talk of five sense cords rather than six was of more immediate help for "a bhikkhu in the initial stages of training" as Bhikkhu Bodhi puts it in his notes about restraint in the introduction to the Salayatanavagga. (p.1127 of SN anthology) Interesting stuff, but no need for me to keep thinking about it! :) Also, this thread made me realize that I don't understand "feeling" yet in the Dhamma sense. When "sensual pleasure" is used, is it referring to mental pleasure as well as body pleasure? This is a rhetorical question - no need to answer it. It is my homework! Back to the vedaana chapter in cetasikas, and on to the vedanaasamyutta. Metta, Phil 40060 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:04pm Subject: Re: Meditation Dear Nina, I appreciate your detailed reponse to my mail; the reply provides very clear and useful information. N: [ giving examples of how dosa can arise groundlessly] A slight uneasiness can arise when we stumble in the house, or a slight pain. Or the wind outside is so cold. Or the button of my coat is missing. T: These examples of dosa are subtle aversion and, I think, we have to be mindfully aware of them in order to really see them with wisdom. It may take incredibly long time before we can be free from this kind of defilement for good. Is it true that one has to become Anagami in order to eradicate dosa? N: Adviser, no, I have no ambitions for that. Better not. A dialogue, yes, because I like your straightforward approach. ...The Dhamma helps us to develop our own understanding. There is no need to follow a teacher. Who knows whether this or that person is right? T: Fine, Nina, you have explained your position clearly and firmly. So we'll go by dialogue based on the Buddha's Dhamma as our refuge. Thank you for accepting my "straightforward" style of asking questions (that style, sometimes, is annoying to others). Talking about 'Dhamma as the refuge', here is my favorite quote from DN 16: "When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge". "Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the highest, if they have the desire to learn." N: I can only talk about my own goal: to develop more understanding so that I learn: all that I read in the text concerns my life at this very moment. This will help me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through the six doors. T: I am so glad to tell you that your goal is also my goal. Precisely, I want to develop strong sati and sampajanna in every moment to "help me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through the six doors", like you have said. I think MN 149 [Maha-salayatanika Sutta] explains how we can achieve such a goal. N: As to checking of the progress for errors correction puposes, there is something in it. Knowing that my latent tendencies are strong, correction of errors is not easy. First of all I have to know exactly when there are errors. T: I can see your point! Yes, when there is a strong anusaya, especially the ignorance latent tendency, it is difficult to know fine errors. We need a capable teacher to help us discover fine errors, I guess. Otherwise, can we start developing concentration (samadhi) first, and when it is strong enough, use it as the basis to develop wisdom as stated in the suttas? N: As for me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions clinging and also aversion. And a lot of other kinds of akusala. I think of my poor progress, and then there is also conceit, clinging to the importance of me, me. I am important, I have to do better. T: Good points, Nina. But those akusala thoughts, being the kind of gross errors that we can readily see, should tend toward diminution as our wisdom develops (through training in the Dhamma) and we become more and more effective in the error identification and correction, using the suttas and/or a teacher as guidance. N: I have an idea. Let us know the ennemy before attacking! It is useful to discuss the hindrances one by one. How do they manifest in your daily life? It is best to begin at this moment to learn more about the hindrances. ... I would suggest to talk about one hindrance at a time. This is also better for me, and I cannot always answer mails immediately, other urgent work is waiting. T: It is a great idea, Nina, to talk about one thing at a time. As to answering my mail, please do it whenever it is convenient to you. Out of the five hindrances, the last three are what I have trouble with most of the time. And they quite often "manifest" themselves in any situation. During a meditation (samatha or vipassana) they often arise closely together. How about starting with skeptical doubt (vicikiccha)? Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Thank you for your sympathetic mails. Because of circumstances, I had to > delay answering your forelast mail. > op 20-12-2004 21:00 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > -- It is useful to know those kinds of citta that are rooted in aversion and > other akusala dhamma, so that we learn to avoid them. > N: Avoiding is one of the right efforts. It is keen pañña that is the > foremost condition for seeing the disadvantages of akusala. Pañña can > realize its true characteristic as only a condiitoned dhamma. > T: It is really interesting to know that dosa can arise groundlessly -- > maybe like that in a mind of a terrorist? > N: Also in all of us. A slight uneasiness can arise when we stumble in the > house, or a slight pain. Or the wind outside is so cold. Or the button of my > coat is missing. > > Now your last mail. > T: Please comment and advise. ( Yes, I think of you as one of my > > advisers. Well, even President Bush has several advisors.) > N: Howard's aside made me laugh. Adviser, no, I have no ambitions for that. > Better not. > A dialogue, yes, because I like your straightforward approach. > The Buddha said that the Dhamma is his successor. The Dhamma helps us to > develop our own understanding. There is no need to follow a teacher. Who > knows whether this or that person is right? We have to be our own refuge and > this attracted me to Buddhism from the beginning. > I like to study the texts of the Tipitaka and I also need help from the > Commentaries because we are further removed form the Buddha's time. Often > the Suttas are very compact and by myself I do not get the deep meaning that > is implied. I like to share what I learn as far as I am able to and that is > all. > > T: You stated, "But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. > > We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway".... > > What's wrong with planning, and what's wrong with goal setting in our > > practice of the Dhamma? > N: Yes, we can plan as far as conditions allow. Just as Lodewijk and I > planned my father's birthday party. We needed a roadmap to go by. > > T: I think as long as we do not cling (because of > > craving) to a plan that we have set with a clear goal, and as long as we > > are flexible and simply use them for periodic checking of the progress > > for errors correction puposes, then we should be doing fine. > N: It is good you know that we should not cling to our plan. And a goal, > yes. We may have different goals. Maybe you and I should say what our goal > is. > I can only talk about my own goal: to develop more understanding so that I > learn: all that I read in the text concerns my life at this very moment. > This will help me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced > through the six doors. > As to checking of the progress for errors correction puposes, there is > something in it. Knowing that my latent tendencies are strong, correction of > errors is not easy. First of all I have to know exactly when there are > errors. Thinking of progress: is there not an error to begin with? As for > me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions clinging and > also aversion. And a lot of other kinds of akusala. I think of my poor > progress, and then there is also conceit, clinging to the importance of me, > me. I am important, I have to do better. Such thoughts, you know. > T: One example, my plan for the next 6 months is to do two one-hour sitting- > > meditation sessions every day, with the goal to try with much greater effort > to abandon all hindrances during any meditation session. If I do not > succeed, I'll try again and again. > N: From what you write I think that you intend to temporarily suppress the > hindrances through samatha. The goal and method of samatha is different > from vipassana which is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma > appears through the six doors. > I find it very useful to talk first about samatha. A specific meditation > subject is necessary so that the hindrances can be subdued. We read and hear > a lot about the hindrances. > I have an idea. Let us know the ennemy before attacking! > It is useful to discuss the hindrances one by one. How do they manifest in > your daily life? It is best to begin at this moment to learn more about the > hindrances. In this way you can incorporate your meditation in daily life. > I learnt that not only in vipassana but also in samatha sati sampajañña are > needed. This means: sati and pañña, but these do not concern theory at all. > Strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary also for samatha. One has > to be very sure when a hindrance arises and what its characteristic is. > I would suggest to talk about one hindrance at a time. This is also better > for me, and I cannot always answer mails immediately, other urgent work is > waiting. > Nina. 40061 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,125 Htoo: "If already clean, there is no need for processing. Visuddhi by its name is 'already clean'." Hi Htoo, Thanks for bringing this to my attention. It has given me the incentive to look at the other translation, "Path of Purity". Larry 40062 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:07pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Herman: "Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing." Hi Herman and Howard, My view is that sound can be perceived to arise external to my body, coming from "over there". Obviously sound cannot be perceived to be external to perception but as long as it is external to my body and the physical "heart base" is perceived to be the base of perception there is good reason to believe sound is indeed external to perception and therefore external to consciousness. However, that's probably not really an issue for satipatthana. But I would say "external to the body" is an essential factor. Below is the relevant section of the Satipatthana Sutta. "Mental object" is a translation of "dhamma". The commentary explains that "dhamma" here means the combination of the "physical and spiritual", contemplation of body being physical and contemplations of feeling and consciousness being spiritual. Or, alternatively, "dhamma" refers to the contemplation of the perception and formations khandhas. The fetters that arise dependent on external (to the body) object and internal sense organ seem to be the heart of this particular contemplation. I appended a link to the commentary at the end. Larry ----------------------------- 3. The Six Internal and the Six External Sense-bases "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the eye and material forms and the fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. ...... He understands consciousness and mental objects and the fetter that arises dependent on both (consciousness and mental objects); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. "Thus he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, internally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, externally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in mental objects. Or his mind is established with the thought: 'Mental objects exist,' to the extent necessary for just knowledge and remembrance and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases." -------------------------------- Commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22429 40063 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi Sarah Thanks for responding to my comments. I'm going to pursue two issues, the first is by far more improtant... Issue #1 Sarah: -- Yes I am saying that ‘Stream Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ‘. All false views are based on self-view, so once this is eradicated, all other false views are eradicated too. We read the same texts, so no need to give you references;-). TG: If all false views have been eliminated by a streamwinner, what are greed, hatred, ignorance, conceit, restlessness, and the desires for either fine material or immaterial states based on ? "Bhikkhus, "I am" is a conceiving...'I am' is a perterbation...'I am' is a palpatation...'I am' is a proliferation...'I am' is an involvement with conceit; 'I am this' is an involvement with conceit; 'I shall be' is an involvement with conceit; 'I shall not be' is an involvement with conceit; I shall consist of form' is an involvement with conceit..." It continues on. (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourse of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1258 -- 1259.) I don't know how it can be argued that the above "I am" is not a false-view? Since conceit is certainly something only an arahat overcomes, I believe subtle false-views associated with 'I am' do continue until that time. Perhaps we have a difference in they way we think about false-views. I would maintain that any delusion is a type of false-view. How could delusion be a correct-view? In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta #1 The higher disciple in training is taked about... That disciple, who is at least a Stream-winner or higher, is advised not to think of things as "mine." That means they still think of things as "mine" and haven't overcome it yet. Sounds like a type of self-view to me. I would agree with your thesis -- that once self-view is entirely eradicated, that all false-views are also eradicted. That would describe an Arahat. But, as far as I can discern, the Sakkaya-Ditthi that a Stream-winner overcomes is only the *belief* that a Self exists. A Stream-winner no longer believes that a Self exists, but they are still saddled with a (somewhat diminished) sense-of-self or 'I am' viewpoint that stills needs to be overcome. Now, I'm waiting for your Sutta references. I think they are needed. ;-) Issue #2 Sarah: -- TG, you’ve mentioned your great respect for the Vism and I know you’re familiar with other commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Are you saying that it is wrong to suggest these clarifications are the Buddha’s teaching? TG: Yes, I think it is wrong to say so. If I were quoting from the Abhidhammamatthasangaha, I would say: -- "This is what is said in the Abhidhammamatthasangaha." I would never say: -- "This is what the Buddha taught." There's a huge and importance difference in my view. Once its being said that the Abhidhammamatthasangaha or Visuddhdimagga or Vimuttimagga are what the Buddha taught, I don't see how anyone can take the position that the Lotus Sutra, or Heart Sutra or Diamond Sutra are not what the Buddha taught. Where do you draw the line? My guess would be that Buddhaghosa would be the first one to say that only the Sutta, Vinaya, and maybe Abhidhamma quotes in the Visuddhimagga are the Buddha's teachings. The rest is analysis. Pretty damn good analysis in my view. But probably not flawless. Even Buddhaghosa ends the Visuddhimagga by suggesting that it probably contains a few errors. He knows or suspects its not flawless! He knows it has a lot of analysis. "...Now that the exposition as set forth, is almost free from errors and flaws..." (Visuddhimagga conclusion) Anyway, I'm far more interested in how you respond to issue #1 because its a matter of understanding or not understanding Dhamma. One of us seems to have a wrong idea on an important issue and if its me, I want it cleared up ASAP. :-) TG 40064 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika Nina: "Feeling is an element devoid of self that falls away immediately. This has to be often considered, because when feeling arises we are immediately overwhelmed." Hi Nina, Could you expand on this a little. How overwhelmed? How is feeling tied up with self view? Does seeing that feeling is not self somehow collapse self view in general? Larry 40065 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika HI Larry, Nina and all > Nina: "Feeling is an element devoid of self that falls away immediately. > This has to be often considered, because when feeling arises we are > immediately overwhelmed." > > Hi Nina, > > Could you expand on this a little. How overwhelmed? How is feeling tied > up with self view? Does seeing that feeling is not self somehow collapse > self view in general? Do you mind if I jump in here for a sec, Larry? I've just been reading about feeling so it would help me reinforce some things. This "immediately overwhelmed" gets at what happens in Honeyball Sutta and so many others - the way we proliferate so quickly starting from the point at which there is contact. Who doesn't? The monk who "stops at seeing." I read somewhere that wise attention is related in some way to *not* being subject to those 4 illusions - I can't remember what they're called now, and I have to run - the illusions which make us see the beautiful in the foul, the permanent in the impermanent and so on. So when we fail to see the impermanence of feelings, we get caught up in them and proliferate. The first dart of bodily feeling leads to the second dart of mental feeling as one sutta in SN puts it. As we know, seeing the impermanence (annica) of dhammas leads to seeing dukkha in them. And do seeing these two characteristics lead to seeing anatta? Anyways, just wanted to hop in there for a sec. I had forgotten that your Vis thread was on feeling now. That's good news for me becauseI am keen on figuring out vedanaa now! Metta, Phil 40066 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:51pm Subject: And then there was hearing! Hello all Happy news to report. Thanks to the improved condition of our computer, I could access the audio files for the first time. Heard K Sujin talking about the black curtain of ignorance that prevents understanding of realities now, about the way "seeing sees" but there is ignorance and attachment -"always, every time" she said, though I would guess "almost always" or 99.9% of the time might be more accurate - after seeing, about the need for patience, khanti. Hearing human voices talking about Dhamma, about patience, was really good for my Dhama-related agitation. Interesting how actually hearing the voice has a different kind of impact, a more calming impact, than just reading the words. I think of my talk with Rob K. I wonder why that is? Well, she has a nice voice anyways. Maybe it's just because it's nice for me to hear Thai-accented English again for the first time in about 12 years. (I spent about 4 months travelling around then.) I look forward to hearing more. Thanks to the moderators for having made them available. Metta, Phil 40067 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Alan Lee > > Yes, Beacuse "The arising and extingushing of Citta" one has no > control over it. It is thus Anatta !!!!! K: I dont understand because when I ask can one master citta, you say yes. Then later you said one has no control over it. Ken O 40068 From: ashkenn2k Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Hi Htoo and Nina Nina: thank you, this is clear. But, if the object of the javanacittas is an unpleasant object, the tadaramana-cittas, in the case of a human being are still kusala vipakacittas, is this right? --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Htoo: Rotten flesh is an unpleasant object. Tadarammana cittas will follow 7th domanassa javana citta. They are not somanassa. So they may be one of 4 upekkha mahavipaka cittas, or one of 2 upekkha santirana cittas. But I do not know and I do not think as you said. What is sure is that the man will have kusala vipaka bhavanga cittas. I think tadarammana may be any of 11 cittas but have to comply with preceeding dhamma. K: Where is the source saying that after javana cittas of an unpleasant object, the tadaramana cittas is still kusala for a human. Ken O 40069 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Friends Herman and Htoo, I hope you don’t mind my butting in Herman's personal reflections here: Herman Hofman wrote: > I would like to share something with you of a personal nature. This is > not a spur of the moment thing, but has been brewing for quite some > time. …. S: I’m sure it has taken some courage to share your background details, Herman and I’m quite sure Htoo will understand. After all, you’re also talking about various dhammas here. Indeed we all have particular experiences which condition various memories and strong likings or aversions accordingly. Sometimes our reactions seem to be quite irrational, but this is usually because we have no idea of the complexity of conditions emanating not just from this life, but many, many countless lives before as well. Samsara is like this – round and round, looking and craving for certain experiences through the senses and being repelled by others on account of the various associations we have. None of this is meant to minimize your difficulties in the past or now,when you read various posts, Herman. … H: > Sorry if this is a strange post. (please do not think that any of this > is about you, I was regurgitating the conditions under which I learnt to > think) …. S: It’s good that you made it clear that it was not intended personally. Of course, there’s never been any suggestion there should be any memorizing or rote-learning of the details Htoo gives us. That has never been my approach to the Abhidhamma either. Like Phil, I have confidence that those aspects which have value and are suitable for my present understanding will soak in and the rest can be put aside. In any case, as students of the Dhamma, we all know that praise and blame are two of the worldly conditions that it’s useless to be swayed by. I'm reminded of the following Dhp verses and story about how even the Great Disciples were blamed for what they spoke or didn’t speak: http://www.vipassana.info/Dhammapada_contents.htm (Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., Burma Pitaka Association (1986)) >Verses 227 to 230 XVII (7) The Story of Atula the Lay-disciple While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (227) to (230) of this book, with reference to Atula and his companions. Once, Atula and his companions numbering five hundred, wishing to listen to words of dhamma, went to Thera Revata. The thera however was very aloof like a lion; he did not say anything to them. They were very much dissatisfied and so they went to Thera Sariputta. When Thera Sariputta learned why they bad come, he expounded exhaustively on the Abhidhamma. He also was not to their liking, and they grumbled that Thera Sariputta had been too lengthy and too profound. Next, Atula and his party approached Thera Ananda. Thera Ananda expounded to them the bare essentials of the Dhamma. This time, they remarked that Thera Ananda had been too brief and too sketchy. Finally they came to the Buddha and said to him, "Venerable Sir, we have come to listen to your teaching. We have been to other teachers before we come here, but we are not satisfied with any of them. Thera Revata did not bother to teach us and he just kept silent; Thera Sariputta was too exhaustive and the Dhamma he taught us was too difficult for us. As for Thera Ananda, he was too brief and too sketchy. We do not like any of their discourses." To them the Buddha said, "My disciples, blaming others is not something new. There is no one in this world who is never blamed; people would blame even a king, or even a Buddha. To be blamed or to be praised by a fool is of no consequence; one is truly blamed only when he is blamed by a wise man, and truly praised only when praised by a wise man." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows; Verse 227: It is not new, O Atula! It has always been done from ancient times. They blame one who is silent, they blame one who speaks much, they blame one who speaks little. There is no one in this world who is not blamed. Verse 228: There never has been, there never will be, nor is there now, anyone who is always blamed or always praised. Verses 229 - 230: If the wise praise him day after day, knowing him to be truly faultless, wise and endowed with knowledgc and virtue, who would blame him, who is like a nikkha of pure gold? The devas praise him; he is praised even by the great Brahmas. At the end of the discourse Atula and his companions attained Sotapatti Fruition.< end quote> ***** S:May we all learn to see the real roots of our problems and learn to accept praise and blame wisely and with equanimity and metta too. Metta, Sarah ====== 40070 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Dear Suravira (& TG), You’ll be used to my delayed responses by now…. I greatly appreciated your careful reading of my comments and prompt feedback. --- Suravira wrote: > [Suravira] If we look at the discipline of the practice of > bodhisattva paramittas, for example the practice of kshanti (non- > violence and forbearance; stoic endurance of hardship) cultivates > mindfulness and insight into the powers karma and mental afflictions > (e.g., greed, anger and ingnorance) relative to the circumstances of > daily life as well as adversities that arise. Through the > cultivation of kshanti mental afflictions are illuminated - we see > their nature and those insights develops prajna (transcendent > wisdom). …. S: could we put it the other way round and say that with panna, khanti is developed? Otherwise, so easily, it’s taken for ‘my khanti’ or a conventional idea of khanti rather than khanti with what is experienced through the various sense doors? In other words, even the paramis have to develop with understanding. …. > [Suravira] Stream entry is an incomplete enlightenment, it is not a > terminus as ignorance is deeply rooted and persistent. …. S: Agreed. …. >As such all > false views are not eradicated for good at that moment (however, the > false views of individuality, doubt in the Dhamma and confidence in > rituals are eradicated). For example, the false views related to > anger is not eradicated until arhatship. A person becomes an aryan > at stream entry, but not all aryans are arhats. …. S: You and TG are making the same points and I’ve seen them before of course. As I understand, ALL wrong views are eradicated at sotapatti-magga, but other defilements such as anger and attachment are eradicated at the stages of anagami and arahant respectively. For example, we read about the perversions (vipallasa) of citta, sanna and ditthi. All perversions with ditthi (wrong view) , as in taking the impermanent for permanent, foul for beautiful, unsatisfactory for satisfactory and anatta for atta, are eradicated at sotapatti magga. See Nyantiloka’s dictionary under ‘Vipallasa’ and ‘Ariyans’. This is why in suttas like the Mulapariyaya Sutta, it is made clear that the sotapanna and other Learners (sekha) do not mis-conceive realities such as earth (pathavi rupa) as belonging to self etc. The commentary to the sutta quotes from S.45:13/v,14 where it says “To what extent, Lord, is one a learner?” “here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu us endowed with a learner’s right view…a learner’s right concentration. To this extent a bhikkhu is a learner”. A little later the samy Cy adds: “The learner has abandoned the conceiving of views, and has diminished the others.” You’ll also find much more in U.P. under ‘wrong views’ and ‘sotapanna’, I think. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... >It is imperative > that the aryan continue to 'enter the stream' over and over again in > order to develop the capacity of liberate themselves from the powers > of unwholesome kamma and mental afflictions - even into the layer of > latent tendencies. … S: Agreed, though I believe we can only refer to ‘entering the stream’ once technically speaking. The stream that is bound for full enlightenment.. From the same Cy as I happen to have it open now in the section under ‘Learner’: “The base of conceiving should be fully understood by the learner through the three full understandings, for he has entered the course of rightness (okkantaniyaamattaa) and is bound for enlightenment. Unlike the worldling he is not wholly lacking in full understanding, and unlike the arahant he has not completed full understanding.” … > As the Buddha taught in the Dhammapada verse 398: > 'Just as a tree, though cut down > sprouts up again if its roots remain uncut and firm, > even so, until the craving that lies dormant is rooted out, > suffering springs up again and again.' … S: The roots of ditthi (wrong view) and other associated grosser defilements have been uprooted by the sotapanna, but the really deep roots have yet to be uprooted. …. > [Suravira] Yes, the nature of paramattha dhammas is not dependent > upon valid cognition. … S: ;-) I’ll have to encourage you to talk to TG on these! …. > > Seeing or hearing are seeing and hearing whether or not there > > is ever any awareness of knowing about them or not. > [Suravira] I imagine you are, by analogy, stating that the tree > falls in the woods even when there is no one there to hear or see > that tree fall? …. S: Yes, but even if we talk about what is experiencing and being experienced now, such as hearing and sounds, they continue to rise and fall away whether or not there is any knowing or awareness of them or not. …. <…> > > This makes it sound as if realities can be > > known by thinking and by a self or 'we' doing something. > > [Suravira] I think I have misunderstood your point here as it > appears to me that you are promoting nihilism - not the middle way. …. S: The middle way is surely the way of understanding the truth of realities (dhammas) for what they are, as pointed out by the Buddha. The truth is that they are anatta and can only be known by right understanding etc. No nihilism involved. Glad to discuss this point further. …. > > > Paramattha > > dhammas can only ever be known or realized by directly > understanding their > > characteristics when they appear, now. > > [Suravira] The absolute is imponderable and incalculable by > discriminating perception (sanna). …. S: It seems to me that you are equating nibbana with paramattha dhammas, whereas the Abhidhamma equates cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana with paramattha. I agree that nibbana is imponderable and incalculable. But why is say ‘sound’ or ‘hardness’ imponderable or unknowable? … > [Suravira] Nibbana is one of the four paramattha dhammas (the other > three being citta, cetaseka and rupa). Refer to Sujin's large book > translated by Nina. …. S: Good. I’m really delighted you’re reading this book. For others, pls refer to: ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’ http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf ….. > [Suravira] Conditioned dhamma are comprehensible and it is > imperative that we understand that which is being negated - the > nature of which is anatta, is shunyatta. … S: Anatta is merely the characteristic or nature of these same conditioned dhammas, not something to be known separately. Have I misunderstood yout? …. > Nibbana is imponderable to the discriminating perception. Only at > stream entry is one provided a glimpse of the nature of nibbana. … S: Yes. So let’s leave nibbana for later;-). …. > > > This is why there are 4 Noble Truths. > > > [Suravira] I am sorry but I am unable to grasp the reason(s) > implicit within this point. I am imagining that you are pointing to > the truth of cessation, which is naturally present due to anatta and > shunyatta. … S: No need to apologise. We’ve come from different Buddhist backgrounds and it takes a little while to find a common language. I was merely stressing that there is not just the truth of cessation, but the Truths of Dukkha, the Truth of the cause of Dukkha and the Path to be followed. As I said, let’s leave aside nibbana or the Truth of cessation for now as it can’t be known or pondered.. … > [Suravira] Nama-vinanna experience the 'meaning' of the paramattha > dhamma - this meaning is a concept, a thought (pannattis dhamma). … S: The meaning of paramattha dhamma is the reality right now as we speak. It is not a concept, though of course we use concepts to discuss what is real. Let me ask you what is real, as you understand, right now as you read and type? …. > [Suravira] It is sanna that supports perspective. As sanna is > present with every citta, then perspective is always present in each > conscious moment of consciousness. …. S: Yes, well said. Usually for us worldlings, it is perverted sanna, but even for arahants there is sanna arising at each moment with a ‘perspective’ of reality or concept. Of course no sanna vipallasa (perversion) for arahants. …. > [Suravira] This is so, only as long as it is understood that nibbana > is imponderable to the discriminating perception. … S: Only for the ‘discriminating perception’ that arises with the lokuttara cittas when all eightfold path factors and associated mental factors such as sanna are present. …. > Thank you for your considered questions. It is always a pleasure to > discuss the Dhamma with you. … S: Likewise. Please persist with this discussion. Also, if I’m slow in responding, you may find it interesting to listen to a little of the audio discussion with A.Sujin as you’re reading her book. It can be found at the bottom of our back-up site-: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Metta, Sarah ====== 40071 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:34am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 80- Volition/cetanaa (j) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Kusala kamma can be classified as dåna (generosity), síla (morality or virtue) and bhåvanå (mental development). Dåna comprises, apart from giving gifts, many other forms of kusala. Included in dåna are, for example, appreciating the kusala cittas of others and ‘sharing one’s merits’. As to the sharing of one’s merits, when someone has done a wholesome deed and he gives others the opportunity to rejoice in the kusala he has performed, it is a way of dåna; at such a moment he helps others to have kusala cittas as well. The observance of the precepts which is síla, can also be considered as a way of dåna. We read in the Gradual Sayings, (Book of the Eights, Chapter IV, §9, Outcomes of Merit) that going for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha leads to happy results and that there are further five gifts which lead to happy results. These are the following (2): ... "Herein, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of life and abstains from it. By abstaining from the taking of life, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, gives to them freedom from hostility, and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, hostility and oppression… "Further, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of what is not given… …gives up sexual misconduct… …gives up wrong speech… …gives up intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness, and abstains from them. By abstaining from intoxicating drinks and drugs, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, freedom from hostility and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, freedom from hostility and freedom from oppression…" ... When we abstain from ill deeds we give others the opportunity to live in safety and without fear. ... 2) Translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, in Anguttara Nikåya, An Anthology III, Wheel publication 238-240, BPS. Kandy, 1976. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40072 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Joop, > > Back to our thread here.. Dear Sarah Thanks for your exact reactions. I will make it easy (for myself) and concentrate on my real question (to myself): will and can I call myself a Theravadin ? I think the asnwer is: no, and I don't need a label; and I accept much of the teachings of the Buddha, a part is mythology. And further: it's impossible to talk about the Teachings without projecting own opinions in it: the commentators were doing it, kalupahana did it and all dsg-members do it. Then the details > I think these particular questions on sabhava only arise for those > who are familiar with the Mahayana teachings where it has other > connotations. J: That's a good observation. But Mahayanist and Theravadins (or whatever their name was) interacted with each other and influenced each other 1500 years ago. So there is reason to be cautious. > Here's a quote from Vism 1, n14 which I like and which is relevant > to other threads: > ... > according to its individual essence (sabhava), J: sabhava translated to "individual essence": that's a translation with much (for me: too much) idealism in it. But more important is the question: why did the commentarors need the term 'sabhava", which problem has to be resolved with it, the Buddha didn't use it, as far as I know ? > S: No reason why we can't add a Joop social citta 90/122;-) > I think that when we understand more about Joop social citta, > we'll find it is covered by others, ...(snip) ... > we understand others better J: No: no 'others" and no "understanding": I'm talking about feeling the presence of a concrete person, feeling the presence of the Buddha too. And to me the list of Dhamma's had for that empathic faculty of human beings been completed with a social citta. It has already 'social rupas' (kayavinatti and vacivannatti) and 'social cetasikas' (metta, kauna, mudita and possibly others) But I did't have the illusion that the 'Abhidhamma community' should simply accept my proposal for adding a new citta to the list. For myself it exists, I'm deeply sure of it. But I will not repeat the discussion of this summer. Still a general question: Are there any procedures to change the list of Dhamma's ? Is there a committee to decide about it ?I did not find this theme in the U.P ! A prealable question: is it in principle possible to change. I think it is and will recall the adding of the rupa "hadaya vatthu" (by commentators ?) to the list of the Dhammasangani. ...(snip) ... > Just keep raising your concerns and issues, Joop. No need to give us > orthodox labels;-). > > Metta, > Sarah Thanks; I will try not to give labels toersons, even not to myself ! Metta Joop 40073 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Dear Friend Htoo, > > I would like to share something with you of a personal nature. This is > not a spur of the moment thing, but has been brewing for quite some > time. > > When I read your posts, often I have very unpleasant memories and a > slight nausea arises. I am brought back to my school days. I was brought > up in a very strict, very fundamentalist, ultra-conservative Dutch > Christian sect. I was sent to a very strict, very fundamentalist, > ultra-conservative school. Hallo Herman It's not a strange post at all, I recognize it. Even if I had not that emotions but I have also been at a calvinistic dutch school But I did like arithmatic, so some others possiblilities: 11 * 11 = 121 22+22+22+22+22+1 = 121 121 + 1 = 122 (with my proposed "social citta" etc But we now know all mathematics belongs to the world of pannatti (concepts, illusions) Even the numer 121 does Metta Joop 40074 From: jonoabb Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:45am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Herman (and Phil) Hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi Phil, ... > What the mind gets fed, gets regurgitated. Round and round it goes. > I notice such a difference between when I wasn't active on the list > and now. Now throughout the day I find myself drafting replies here, > mentally raising points there, or just thinking about what someone > wrote. While during my absence, there was none of that. Right, there was none of that particular kind of reflecting (namely, reflecting on matters being discussed on the list); but there would have been thinking about other matters, since that is the nature of the mind. Even the arahant continues to think, but without akusala. > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) to > the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. On my reading of the teachings, there is no disadvantage in thinking per se, and particularly in thinking that is kusala; the insight that leads to the eventual breaking down of that wall depends on kusala thinking of a particular kind for its development (I'm not of course saying that the thinking and the insight are the same). There are plenty of suttas that talk about hearing the dhamma, considering what has been heard and gaining a reflective acceptance of what has thus been understood, as part of the chain of conditions that culminate in enlightenment. Now as I understand matters, the thinking you are talking about here, i.e., thinking about points that have arisen for discussion on the list, is likely to include this very kind of kusala thinking. We should value it! No need to have as one's aim withdrawing from this kind of thinking. Jon [A similar post was sent previously but does not seem to have showed up on the list. Apologies for any duplication that may occur.] 40075 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:47am Subject: Re: And then there was hearing! Hi, Phil - > Interesting how actually > hearing the voice has a different kind of impact, a more calming > impact, than just reading the words. Can you speculate why does hearing the Dhamma produce stronger impact than reading? Does saddha correlate more strongly to voice than picture? There are stories of people in the past who became at least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's lectures. Of course, there were no Dhamma books during that time, but who would care about books when they could listen to the living Buddha? Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hello all > > > Happy news to report. Thanks to the improved condition of our > computer, I could access the audio files for the first time. > Heard K Sujin talking about the black curtain of ignorance that > prevents understanding of realities now, about the way "seeing sees" > but there is ignorance and attachment -"always, every time" she said, > though I would guess "almost always" or 99.9% of the time might be > more accurate - after seeing, about the need for patience, khanti. > Hearing human voices talking about Dhamma, about patience, was > really good for my Dhama-related agitation. Interesting how actually > hearing the voice has a different kind of impact, a more calming > impact, than just reading the words. I think of my talk with Rob K. I > wonder why that is? > > Well, she has a nice voice anyways. Maybe it's just because it's > nice for me to hear Thai-accented English again for the first time in > about 12 years. (I spent about 4 months travelling around then.) > > I look forward to hearing more. Thanks to the moderators for > having made them available. > > Metta, > Phil 40076 From: Philip Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: And then there was hearing! Hi Tep, and all > > Interesting how actually > > hearing the voice has a different kind of impact, a more calming > > impact, than just reading the words. > > Can you speculate why does hearing the Dhamma produce stronger > impact than reading? Does saddha correlate more strongly to voice > than picture? I could speculate... For me, it could simply be the novelty factor. After reading so much about Dhamma, to listen to people talking about it. Technically speaking, if I'm not mistaken, the rupa of a person's voice is conditioned by the citta that leads to the speaking. So there could be a wholesome aspect to the rupa of the voice of a person with right understanding. I think I learned that a person's smile and other "physical intimations (?)" are rupa that are conditioned by citta. So the voice of a person with profound understanding could conceivably have a quality that is calming or encouraging for saddha. That is mere speculation. If anyone thinks that there could be grounds for that, please confirm. >There are stories of people in the past who became at > least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's lectures. Yes, though the way all 500 of them become enlightened in some cases strikes me as pretty...what's the right word...well, far- fetched for the purpose of inspiring listeners rather than describing a believable process of enlightenment. Just my opinion, of course. > Of course, there were no Dhamma books during that time, but who would > care about books when they could listen to the living Buddha? Ah, Tep, I do love my books! A real attachment. I sometimes wonder if what I really want is liberation from samsara or to read suttas while sipping coffee. Anyways, it was a very good experience to listen to K Sujin like that. I will do so again when I am feeling agitated. Ah, but then there will be expectations, and the calming effect I received today will not come....expectations can be so counter-productive. Metta, Phil 40077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Tep, op 22-12-2004 01:04 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: It may take incredibly long time before we can be free from this kind of > defilement for good. Is it true that one has to become Anagami in order > to eradicate dosa? N: Yes. But the coarse dosa wears away when someone becomes a sotapanna and a sakadagami. The reason is that there is at these stages a lessening of clinging to sense objects. Clinging to sense objects is an important condition for dosa: this arises when things are not as we want them to be. When I come to think of it, when whatever appears is seen as only a conditioned nama or rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is welcome or not. It is conditioned already. Let be the heat, the cold, the unpleasant word one hears. Think of the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint. The monk who heard unpleasant speech realized: this is only the impingement of sound on the earsense. Whatever happens has to happen, but for worldlings it is difficult to practise, don't you think? T: Talking about 'Dhamma as the refuge', here is my favorite quote from > DN 16: N: This is also one of my favorite ones. And it is repeated in many other suttas, such as the Parinibbana sutta. > T: I am so glad to tell you that your goal is also my goal. Precisely, I > want to develop strong sati and sampajanna in every moment to "help > me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through > the six doors", like you have said. I think MN 149 [Maha-salayatanika > Sutta] explains how we can achieve such a goal. N: I like this sutta because it deals with eye, visible object and seeing, etc. About all common realities. I like this, because we do not have to go far to develop understanding. And in many suttas the same is explained. > T: ...Yes, when there is a strong anusaya, especially > the ignorance latent tendency, it is difficult to know fine errors. We need > a capable teacher to help us discover fine errors, I guess. Otherwise, > can we start developing concentration (samadhi) first, and when it is > strong enough, use it as the basis to develop wisdom as stated in the > suttas? N: I think that for samatha and vipassana sati sampajañña has to be stressed. Really, many dhammas have to be understood, also in the case of samatha. > N: As for me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions > clinging and also aversion. .... > T: Good points, Nina. But those akusala thoughts, being the kind of > gross errors that we can readily see, should tend toward diminution as > our wisdom develops (through training in the Dhamma) and we > become more and more effective in the error identification and > correction, using the suttas and/or a teacher as guidance. N: Sure, the suttas can make us consider our faults and vices. Take the anumana sutta. We shall think twice before critizing others. T: Out of the five hindrances, the last three are what I have trouble with > most of the time. And they quite often "manifest" themselves in any > situation. During a meditation (samatha or vipassana) they often arise > closely together. How about starting with skeptical doubt (vicikiccha)? N: It is a good idea and I think that it does not matter in what order we talk about them. I like to listen first to your input about doubt and how it manifests in any situation. Meanwhile I also reflect about it. Nina. 40078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Phil, op 22-12-2004 04:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:> > This "immediately overwhelmed" gets at what happens in Honeyball > Sutta and so many others - the way we proliferate so quickly starting > from the point at which there is contact. Who doesn't? The monk who > "stops at seeing." N: Yes, I read: whatevere is the origin of anumber of obsessions and perceptions...if there is nothing to rejoice at...this in itself is an end to the latent tendency of sense desire... aversion... etc. Those latent tendencies condition the attachment with feeling. etc. Ph: I read somewhere that wise attention is related in some way to > *not* being subject to those 4 illusions - I can't remember what > they're called now, and I have to run - the illusions which make us > see the beautiful in the foul, the permanent in the impermanent and > so on. So when we fail to see the impermanence of feelings, we get > caught up in them and proliferate. N: In the next para of the Vis. , 126, the Co stresses in particular wise attention as a condition for feeling to be kusala and unwise attention for feeling to be akusala. I think that the reason is that feelings are very predominant. When there is wise attention they do not overwhelm us. I am glad about your input. Ph: The first dart of bodily feeling leads to the second dart of mental feeling as one sutta in SN puts it. N: I remember. When you have aversion of pain, you make it worse, another dart. Ph: As we know, seeing the impermanence (annica) of dhammas leads to > seeing dukkha in them. And do seeing these two characteristics lead > to seeing anatta? N: The three characteristics are closely connected, see the suttas of K.S.IV. But depending on the individual, one of these three may be seen more often than the others. Just before enlightenment, one characteristic is seen, but this means, they are all three penetrated. Ph; Anyways, just wanted to hop in there for a sec. N: Do hop in more often, appreciated, Nina. 40079 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Larry, op 22-12-2004 04:24 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > quotes Nina: "Feeling is an element devoid of self that falls away immediately. > This has to be often considered, because when feeling arises we are > immediately overwhelmed." L: Could you expand on this a little. How overwhelmed? N: When pleasant feeling arises with kusala citta, we are not overwhelmed, but immediately after that we are bound to cling to that pleasant feeling. We find it very important to have pleasant feeling, we are enslaved to it. We like to have pleasant objects and often we cling to those with pleasant feeling. And again we like that pleasant feeling arising with clinging and so we continue being enslaved to pleasant feeling. When we have aversion, this is accompanied by unpleasant feeling, and we dislike this unpleasant feeling, and in this way aversion with unpleasant feeling arises again, taking as object unpleasant feeling. We suffer because of unpleasant feeling. As to indifferent feeling, we are likely to be ignorant of this, we do not notice it. Pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling we experienced in the past on account of certain objects or events are the condition for a person to vivdly remember these objects, he does not forget. Thus feelings have a strong impact on people. The Dispeller of Delusion, I, p. 15, under Feeling aggregate classifies gross and subtle feeling in different ways. One of these is: L:How is feeling tied up with self view? N: We cling to feeling with lobha unaccompanied by wrong view, or with wrong view or with conceit. These three ways of clinging are the papañcas, proliferations. They slow down the process of liberation from the cycle. When we cling to feeling with wrong view we think that it is my feeling, that we possess feeling, that we can have absolute power over it. We do not see it as just a conditioned element. L: Does seeing that feeling is not self somehow collapse self view in general? N: Since we are inclined to take feeling for self, the Buddha included it among the four satipatthanas. We read in the Co (p. 141): And the subco: <(There is no ego that experiences) because there is no doer or agent (kattu) besides a bare process (dhamma). The word bare indicates that the process is impersonal.> It is important not to neglect feeling as object of mindfulness, but all four satipatthanas have to be developed. I have read that who understands feeling understands all dhammas, but we should consider what this implies. We are likely to confuse bodily phenomena with namas such as feeling, but in order to understand feeling as nama, insight has to be developed of all objects experienced through the six doors. The first stage of insight, distinguishing between nama and rupa, cannot be foregone. Thus, when we read that feeling is truly understood as it is, it means that all nama and rupa that appear are also understood as they are. Nina. 40080 From: Philip Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:40am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 80- Volition/cetanaa (j) Hello all > When we abstain from ill deeds we give others the opportunity to > live in safety and without fear. This is very nice. I certainly think of the benefits I will receive from abstention and rarely think in the above terms. Everytime we abstain, does it condition another moment of abstention? Can kusala citta that is an abstention be natural decisive support condition for a later citta? Or are there other conditions at work that are just as likely to prevail? Of course there are. I think if I had more faith in the power of moments of abstention it would be easier to break bad habits. I read somewhere about different kinds of abstentions. Some are based on precepts, some are based on social norms (?), and I think there's one more class. I remember wondering why there wasn't a class of abstention included that wasn't conditioned by following precepts, and wasn't conditioned by social norms, but instead arose from basic wisdom having been developed. i.e from simply having come to learn that doing something leads to unpleasant results in the longer run despite pleasure in the short run. I wonder if you know the classification of abstentions that I am referring to... Metta, Phil 40081 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Herman, I understand you and your post. You will see two things in the whole world if you thoughtfully look into. 1. One is conservation. 2. Another is discovery. I will talk on the 2nd point that is discovery. Copernicus, Galelio, Hipocrates, Newton, Einstein and many endless people discovered new and new thing. Discovery is still ongoing. Scientists look into their science and made input to the whole world for later use. In the Stone Age, there was no proper storage of food. If stored they went rotten. Scientific observation and discoveries made better and better way of living. Nowadays almost everything can be handy if affordable. This is because of manipulation of physical law. Manipulation here I mean 'usage of physical law' or utu niyama. Again, science approaches genes. Mendelson made a great input into genetics. Crick and Watson discovered whole human genome. With the discoveries of these genes and manipulation current world has a good chance to receive some good effect. Now scientists are trying to switch off some genes which otherwise would cause bad effect. There are many many DNAs or Deoxyribonucleic Acids and RNAs or Ribonucleic Acids like cDNA, ssDNA, dsDNA, sDNA, siDNA, mRNA, tRNA, sRNA, and many others. Each has own function. siDNA or small interfering DNA was discovered recently and now scientists are trying to switch off some genes with the aid of genetic manipulations. This is gene approach. This is usage of bija niyama or genetic law. Both physical law and genetic law are now being under usage. Both are still under new and new discoveries. Now I am going back to the point one that is 'conservation'. The Buddha discovered citta niyama, kamma niyama, dhamma niyama. He also knew utu niyama and bija niyama. But The Buddha main appraoch is for liberation. There are interlinks between citta and kamma and dhamma. The Buddha discovered. All other beings have to follow The Buddha and they all have to conserve what The Buddha had discovered. No one can add anything new. And there is no new discoveries and there will never be new discoveries regarding citta niyama. If you want to be conservative just follow The Path of The Buddha and help yourself liberated. If you want to follow point 2 that is discovery of science or later people, then you can also follow them and everybody has the right to choose liberally and freely. Your point seemed to say on some sociology matter. That is teaching methods. There are many teaching methods. Even in Buddha time, some teaching methods were not totally effective. That is why some great monks were transferred to be under training of some younger monks. Regurgitationwise, there are many who regurgitate. For me, I am not regurgitating anything. Once I was accused that some of my posts were very good and very experiential and practical and some were totally regurgitative. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Dear Friend Htoo, > > I would like to share something with you of a personal nature. This is > not a spur of the moment thing, but has been brewing for quite some > time. > > When I read your posts, often I have very unpleasant memories and a > slight nausea arises. I am brought back to my school days. I was brought > up in a very strict, very fundamentalist, ultra-conservative Dutch > Christian sect. I was sent to a very strict, very fundamentalist, > ultra-conservative school. > > The teaching method was rote learning under the threat of violence or > abuse. This method covered all subjects. For example, each student had > to learn a section of the Bible to recite from memory in front of the > master every Monday morning. Depending on how poor your performance was, > you were either hit, shaken about or verbally abused. If you were word > perfect you were praised. Each Monday morning the nausea would rise up > as you witnessed the abuse before your name was called out. > > Sometimes around town I see little advertising pictures or letters > written in a particular way which also remind me of my maths, writing > and reading classes. The teaching there was much the same, and I get a > sick feeling in my stomach when I am reminded. > > It is quite a scary thought for me that the task of teaching children > how to think and what to think is often in the hands of very ignorant > people. This includes parents whose major skill in life is making > babies, and who rear their offspring by simply repeating what was done > to themselves. Without an understanding of the past, we are bound to > repeat it. And that's the way it goes, on and on and on.... > > > > Sorry if this is a strange post. (please do not think that any of this > is about you, I was regurgitating the conditions under which I learnt to > think) > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > I was a good student. Of course, I can take no credit for that. The > ability to learn is beyond control. > > -----Original Message----- > From: htootintnaing [mailto:htootintnaing@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 2:23 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are different classification systems on citta. > > A. Vedana classification (62 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 55 = 121) > > B. Hetu classification ( 18 + 2 + 22 + 47 = 89) > > C. Jati classification ..a) (12 + 21 + 36 + 20 = 89) > ..b) (12 + 37 + 52 + 20 = 121) > > D. Bhumi classification ..a) (54 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 89) > ..b) (54 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 121) > > E. Kicca classification( 1.19,2.19,3.2,4.2,5.2,6.2,7.2,8.2,9.2, > 10.3,11.1,12.55,13.11,14.19) > > (19+19+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+1+55+11+19= 141 - overlapping 52 = 89) > > F. Multifunctional classification > > (1.2,2.8,3.9,4.2,5.68) 2+8+9+2+68= 89 > > G. Dvara classification (1.46,2.46,3.46,4.46,5.46,6.67 ) > > and many others. > > G. Dvara classification on citta > > 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas > 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas > 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas > 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas > 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas > 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas > > Dvarika means 'at door'. There are 46 cittas that arise at eye- sense- > door or at cakkhu dvara. These 46 cittas are > > 1. 1 pancadvaravajjana citta > 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) > 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) > 4. 3 santirana cittas (2 upekkha and 1 somanassa) > 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta) > 6.29 kama-javana cittas( 12 akusala, 1 hasituppada, 8 mahakusala, > 8 mahakiriya cittas) > 7. 8 tadarammana cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas) > ------- > 46 cittas > > All these 46 cittas can arise at cakkhu dvara or eye-sense-door. > > In sotadvara 2 sotavinnana cittas replace cakkhuvinnana cittas and so > do 2 ghanavinnana, 2 jivhavinnana, 2 kayavinnana. All other cittas > are characterwise the same as in cakkhudvara vithi cittas. > > So there are 46 + 2 sotavinnana + 2 ghanavinnana + 2 jivhavinnana > + 2 kayavinnana altogether 54 cittas can arise at 5-sense-doors. > > When these 54 cittas are analysed, they are all kamavacara cittas. > > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. > 40082 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,125 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: "If already clean, there is no need for processing. > Visuddhi by its name is 'already clean'." > > Hi Htoo, > > Thanks for bringing this to my attention. It has given me the incentive > to look at the other translation, "Path of Purity". > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, No. I have not recommended anything yet. Actually I prefer 'path of purification'. But 'path of purity' is equally right. This is the point why I stick to Pali words. With respect, Htoo Naing 40083 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Ken O, I think it is referring to vipaka citta which is the result of kusala in case of human. Because human beings are born with kusala vipaka cittas and tadarammana also mostly arise is kusala vipaka cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > > Hi Htoo and Nina > > Nina: thank you, this is clear. > But, if the object of the javanacittas is an unpleasant object, the > tadaramana-cittas, in the case of a human being are still kusala > vipakacittas, is this right? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Htoo: Rotten flesh is an unpleasant object. Tadarammana cittas will > follow 7th domanassa javana citta. They are not somanassa. So they > may be one of 4 upekkha mahavipaka cittas, or one of 2 upekkha > santirana cittas. > > But I do not know and I do not think as you said. What is sure is > that the man will have kusala vipaka bhavanga cittas. I think > tadarammana may be any of 11 cittas but have to comply with > preceeding dhamma. > > > K: Where is the source saying that after javana cittas of an > unpleasant object, the tadaramana cittas is still kusala for a human. > > > Ken O 40084 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread (195) Dear Dhamma Friends, G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas 7. 19 dvara-vimutta cittas ( or 19 advarika cittas ) H. Multidoor classification on citta 1. 36 ekadvarika cittas(10 dvipancavinnana cittas,26 mahagata javana) 2. 3 pancadvarika cittas ( 3 manodhatus ) 3. 31 chadvarika cittas(29kama javana and1 soma santirana, 1 votthapa) 4. 10 chadvarika-advarika cittas ( 2 santirana, 8 mahavipaka 0 5. 9 advarika cittas or dvaravimutta cittas ( 9 mahaggata vipaka) ----- 89 cittas I. Arammana classification on citta Before going deep into this arammana or objects have to be explained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40085 From: Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:48am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Hi Sarah I've got to condense the below into a few responses... Sarah: This is why in Suttas like the Mulapariyaya Sutta, it is made clear that the sotapanna and other Learners (sekha) do not mis-conceive realities such as earth (pathavi rupa) as belonging to self etc. The commentary to the sutta quotes from S.45:13/v,14 where it says “To what extent, Lord, is one a learner?â€? “here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu us endowed with a learner’s right view…a learner’s right concentration. To this extent a bhikkhu is a learnerâ€?. A little later the samy Cy adds: “The learner has abandoned the conceiving of views, and has diminished the others.â€? TG: Interesting we used the same Sutta to make the opposite point. Unless my translation by B. Bodhi is totally corrupt, it seems clear from reading the Mulapariyaya Sutta that the Buddha is advising "learners" (stream-winners, once-returners, non-returners) to NOT see things as "mine." This means, as I read it, that they still do regard things in that manner to some extent. Why would the Buddha need to advise them to see things as "not mine" if they had eliminated that possibility? I understand this to be a "proof" of the position I'm talking. The first commentary you provide states -- "endowed with a learners Right View" I interpret it to mean -- they have developed a certain level of right view and that's the view they are endowed with. I wouldn't consider it for a moment to be a justification for thinking they have eliminated all false views. In fact, the term "learners right view" seems to be putting a limit on their level of right view. The second comment you list actually supports my position more so than yours I think. It flatly maintains that there are still "diminished views" that the stream-winner has not eliminated. Not sure how you find that to support your position. Sarah: S: The roots of ditthi (wrong view) and other associated grosser defilements have been uprooted by the sotapanna, but the really deep roots have yet to be uprooted. TG: Wait a minute! ;-) Roots are roots. You can't eliminate the roots and still have deeper roots! If there are still deeper roots of wrong-view remaining, then there is still some wrong-view left. It sounds like you are making my case. Thanks, I need the rest. :-) TG: The Suttas describe a Stream-winner in three main different ways from what I can recollect... 1) The most basic and perhaps most often way is someone who has full confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha (they are doing the right thing) and "spotless virtues." 2) Someone who had eliminated -- personality-belief, doubt, and attachment to rites and rituals. 3) Someone who has -- gained the spotless vision that "whatsoever is of the nature to arise, must also be of the nature to cease." To me the third is the key of what a Stream-winner is. They basically have come to a complete understanding of the principles of Dependent Origination. By understanding Dependent Origination, they no longer "believe" in a self. The principle of Dependent Origination makes a "self" an impossibility so they don't have "self-belief." They also have perfect confidence in the Buddha who expounds Dependent Origination. They have perfect confidence in the Dhamma which is the teaching of Dependent Origination, and the Sangha which is carrying out that teaching of Dependent Origination. They have no doubts because they understand the principles of Dependent Origination. They have no attachments to rites and rituals because rites and rituals are generally "superstitious" and not based on Dependent Origination. None of this is to say, or even suggest, that all false-views are permanently eradicated. I don't think there is any Sutta that will make that point either, but would love to see it if there is. Take care. TG 40086 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? Hi Phil, yes, but I cannot resist answering. It usually is a translation of kama-raga, sense desire. It is attachment to sense objects which can be experienced through the six doors. It is nice that you share suttas with us. Nina. op 22-12-2004 01:02 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Also, this thread made me realize that I don't understand "feeling" > yet in the Dhamma sense. When "sensual pleasure" is used, is it > referring to mental pleasure as well as body pleasure? This is a rhetorical question - no need to answer it. It is my homework! Back to the vedaana chapter in cetasikas, and on to the vedanaasamyutta. 40087 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: And then there was hearing! Hi Philip and Tep, op 22-12-2004 15:12 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Technically speaking, if I'm not mistaken, the rupa of a person's > voice is conditioned by the citta that leads to the speaking. So > there could be a wholesome aspect to the rupa of the voice of a > person with right understanding. I think I learned that a person's > smile and other "physical intimations (?)" are rupa that are > conditioned by citta. N: Correct, bodily intimation and speech intimation are rupas originating from citta. When someone else hears sound produced by kusala citta, the hearing is kusala vipakacitta. Even if there is bad news, but the speech is full of compassion, hearing is kusala vipaakacitta. Ph: So the voice of a person with profound > understanding could conceivably have a quality that is calming or > encouraging for saddha. That is mere speculation. If anyone thinks > that there could be grounds for that, please confirm. N: This depends on the listener's accumulations. Some people do not like to hear a particular person even if she/he is full of wisdom. Think of the Buddha in his time. There is another thing. Kh. Sujin said that Dhamma is Dhamma and that it does not matter who speaks, we should not cling to a particular speaker. In the course of years I more and more came to see this. I appreciate others who speak on Dhamma also very, very much. I learn from others, not only from Kh Sujin. So, we have to be careful and distinguish: when is there confidence, when is there clinging? As to Tep's question, does hearing have more impact than reading? Perhaps it is good for a change to do both. Reading makes us tired and then, when we listen, it is like a rest and we reflect perhaps more, although not necessarily so. We can also reflect when reading. My Thai friends said they need both and I also do both. I listen to Kh Sujin on my MP3, and tapes. Nina. 40088 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Ken O and Htoo, op 22-12-2004 07:52 schreef ashkenn2k op ashkenn2k@y...: > K: Where is the source saying that after javana cittas of an > unpleasant object, the tadaramana cittas is still kusala for a human. N: No, I did not say kusala cittas, but kusala vipaakacittas, thus, as Htoo says, avyaakata dhamma, indeterminate dhamma. But the whole question is above my head. If the kusala kamma that produced our rebirth-consciousness produces the tadaraamana-citta, it has to be kusala vipaaka. But, each time the object experienced in that process is unpleasant, the vipaakacittas that experience it are akusala vipaakacittas. The tadaarammanacittas that experience an unpleasant object cannot be kusala vipaaka. But sometimes it is better to leave a matter that we do not understand. Nina. 40089 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG, just butting in , you had a dialogue with Sarah on eradication of false view. Maybe this could clarify somewhat. op 22-12-2004 03:34 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > TG: If all false views have been eliminated by a streamwinner, what are > greed, hatred, ignorance, conceit, restlessness, and the desires for either > fine > material or immaterial states based on ? > > "Bhikkhus, "I am" is a conceiving...'I am' is a perterbation...'I am' is a > palpatation...'I am' is a proliferation...'I am' is an involvement with > conceit; > 'I am this' is an involvement with conceit; 'I shall be' is an involvement > with conceit; 'I shall not be' is an involvement with conceit; I shall consist > of form' is an involvement with conceit..." It continues on. (The Buddha . > . > . Connected Discourse of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1258 -- 1259.) Nina:I had a dialogue with Larry and I wrote: < We cling to feeling with lobha unaccompanied by wrong view, or with wrong view or with conceit. These three ways of clinging are the papañcas, proliferations. They slow down the process of liberation from the cycle. When we cling to feeling with wrong view we think that it is my feeling, that we possess feeling, that we can have absolute power over it. We do not see it as just a conditioned element.> Thus, even those who are ariyans not yet arahats, still have the I am or I shall be conceit. They cling to self, the importance of self without wrong view. See your sutta quote, and also the Vibhanga has many examples. And many other suttas. Nina. 40090 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:51pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Larry and Howard, Thanks for this. Herman: "Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing." Hi Herman and Howard, L: My view is that sound can be perceived to arise external to my body, coming from "over there". H: I agree with you in part. But I think that the "location" of sound is a mental layer deduced / arrived at from many sensory events. To come to think in terms of a body and what is internal and external to it is a learnt differentiation. A bit of conjecture here, but I do not believe that newborns or even 3-month olds perceive in terms of inside and outside. But once having learnt this, it is very difficult to unlearn. (and possibly unnecessary) A bit of a story here. I am a very sound-based person. Many times I hear the most beautiful music as a background. When I try to actively listen to it, it disappears. I understand that this music is not external. Is it sound? Likewise, if there is active listening and there is no particular "external" sound going on, there is a ringing in the ears (good-old tinnitus). Again, not external. Kind Regards Herman Obviously sound cannot be perceived to be external to perception but as long as it is external to my body and the physical "heart base" is perceived to be the base of perception there is good reason to believe sound is indeed external to perception and therefore external to consciousness. However, that's probably not really an issue for satipatthana. But I would say "external to the body" is an essential factor. Below is the relevant section of the Satipatthana Sutta. "Mental object" is a translation of "dhamma". The commentary explains that "dhamma" here means the combination of the "physical and spiritual", contemplation of body being physical and contemplations of feeling and consciousness being spiritual. Or, alternatively, "dhamma" refers to the contemplation of the perception and formations khandhas. The fetters that arise dependent on external (to the body) object and internal sense organ seem to be the heart of this particular contemplation. I appended a link to the commentary at the end. Larry ----------------------------- 3. The Six Internal and the Six External Sense-bases "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the eye and material forms and the fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. ...... He understands consciousness and mental objects and the fetter that arises dependent on both (consciousness and mental objects); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. "Thus he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, internally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, externally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in mental objects. Or his mind is established with the thought: 'Mental objects exist,' to the extent necessary for just knowledge and remembrance and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases." -------------------------------- Commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22429 Yahoo! Groups Links 40091 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:46pm Subject: Re: Meditation Dear Nina, I have noticed your tireless answering to several mails almost every day. So I think I should always try to make my messages as concise as possible and stay away from asking any unnecessary question. N: Clinging to sense objects is an important condition for dosa: this arises when things are not as we want them to be. When I come to think of it, when whatever appears is seen as only a conditioned nama or rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is welcome or not. It is conditioned already. Let be the heat, the cold, the unpleasant word one hears. T: Most worldlings (including me) are not accustomed to discerning all rupa and nama as 'conditioned' and 'not-self'. I think that's why it is so easy for them to get deluded and fail to mindfully discern an arising dhamma in a given moment. N: Think of the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint. The monk who heard unpleasant speech realized: this is only the impingement of sound on the earsense. Whatever happens has to happen, but for worldlings it is difficult to practise, don't you think? T: Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it is only a sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many billion times more I have to make mental noting like this before it finally sticks. Do you have any helpful 'tips' ? N: Sure, the suttas can make us consider our faults and vices. Take the anumana sutta. We shall think twice before criticizing others. T: The anumana sutta talks about the 'evil things' that should be dispelled (e.g. having evil desires and submerged in them; being crafty and fraudulent; overcome by anger, cursing and angry with a grudge; praising oneself and disparaging others, etc.). But my online copy probably excludes the akusala kamma vipaka of criticizing others. Could you please fill in the blank for me? N: I like to listen first to your input about doubt and how it manifests in any situation. Meanwhile I also reflect about it. T: I have skeptical doubt when I read some suttas that seem to contradict each other. I also have skeptical doubt about some steps of the anapanasati meditation, e.g. as described in MN 118 and AN X.60. I have doubt about my Sila, Samadhi and Panna too. I think some of my doubts are caused by "inappropriate attention" to the dhamma in question. Kindest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 22-12-2004 01:04 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > It may take incredibly long time before we can be free from this kind of > > defilement for good. Is it true that one has to become Anagami in order > > to eradicate dosa? > N: Yes. But the coarse dosa wears away when someone becomes a sotapanna and > a sakadagami. The reason is that there is at these stages a lessening of > clinging to sense objects. Clinging to sense objects is an important > condition for dosa: this arises when things are not as we want them to be. > When I come to think of it, when whatever appears is seen as only a > conditioned nama or rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is > welcome or not. It is conditioned already. Let be the heat, the cold, the > unpleasant word one hears. Think of the Discourse on the Elephant's > Footprint. The monk who heard unpleasant speech realized: this is only the > impingement of sound on the earsense. Whatever happens has to happen, but > for worldlings it is difficult to practise, don't you think? > T: Talking about 'Dhamma as the refuge', here is my favorite quote from > > DN 16: > N: This is also one of my favorite ones. And it is repeated in many other > suttas, such as the Parinibbana sutta. > > T: I am so glad to tell you that your goal is also my goal. Precisely, I > > want to develop strong sati and sampajanna in every moment to "help > > me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through > > the six doors", like you have said. I think MN 149 [Maha- salayatanika > > Sutta] explains how we can achieve such a goal. > N: I like this sutta because it deals with eye, visible object and seeing, > etc. About all common realities. I like this, because we do not have to go > far to develop understanding. And in many suttas the same is explained. > > T: ...Yes, when there is a strong anusaya, especially > > the ignorance latent tendency, it is difficult to know fine errors. We need > > a capable teacher to help us discover fine errors, I guess. Otherwise, > > can we start developing concentration (samadhi) first, and when it is > > strong enough, use it as the basis to develop wisdom as stated in the > > suttas? > N: I think that for samatha and vipassana sati sampajañña has to be > stressed. Really, many dhammas have to be understood, also in the case of > samatha. > > N: As for me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions > > clinging and also aversion. .... > > T: Good points, Nina. But those akusala thoughts, being the kind of > > gross errors that we can readily see, should tend toward diminution as > > our wisdom develops (through training in the Dhamma) and we > > become more and more effective in the error identification and > > correction, using the suttas and/or a teacher as guidance. > N: Sure, the suttas can make us consider our faults and vices. Take the > anumana sutta. We shall think twice before critizing others. > > T: Out of the five hindrances, the last three are what I have trouble with > > most of the time. And they quite often "manifest" themselves in any > > situation. During a meditation (samatha or vipassana) they often arise > > closely together. How about starting with skeptical doubt (vicikiccha)? > N: It is a good idea and I think that it does not matter in what order we > talk about them. > I like to listen first to your input about doubt and how it manifests in any > situation. Meanwhile I also reflect about it. > Nina. 40092 From: Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/22/2004 12:30:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Thus, even those who are ariyans not yet arahats, still have the I am or I shall be conceit. They cling to self, the importance of self without wrong view. See your sutta quote, and also the Vibhanga has many examples. And many other suttas. Nina. Hi Nina Glad to have you aboard! What this means to me is that what is being called "wrong view" is really the very gross "wrong beliefs" that might be held to. Such as believing in a permanent self or soul. And maybe that's technically the correct way to consider wrong view. I would consider that the gross outer layer of wrong view. I would consider the type of thing you wrote above to be wrong view also. To distinguish the two, I would consider the gross wrong view to be "wrong belief." To me, any latent or active tendency that leads one to see incorrectly is "wrong view" based on ignorance/delusion. I'm looking at the term "wrong-view" as "seeing things incorrectly." If we want to call it based on conceit, or based on view...its of little concern to me. The main thing is that it is incorrect seeing and it is not fully eliminated until arahatship. Conceit means that phenomena are still be viewed falsely. I would think that it is the "viewing falsely" that causes conceit 'I am' and not the other way around. Although they would lend mutual support to each other in continuing the level of delusional processing of experience. Take care Nina TG 40093 From: Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:14pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Herman, I agree with your reservations about the externality of sound and came up with a few of my own. For example, what is the external mind base external to, the internal mind base? If a sound is external to the ear, what and where is hearing consciousness? It is nama, so neither external nor internal. Hearing consciousness is the only sound we know. However, there is a way to see an object external to consciousness. We can see a visible object is external to touch consciousness, therefore we reach. We can see that someone is not conscious of what we are conscious of. On a more complex level, we can listen to the same recording many times and hear something different every time. But I agree these are complex perceptual and evaluative processes; not bare sense consciousness. This sense of externality is the primary validation for a separate self but without a sense of self I would think spacial relationships are still valid. But who knows? Maybe not. Relationship is a concept. [Oops, sorry, can of worms] In the Satipatthana Sutta the main point of the "dhamma" of external and internal sense bases is that the fetters arise dependent on these bases. Externality doesn't seem to be an issue but dependent arising is. Larry 40094 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:01pm Subject: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I've got to condense the below into a few responses... Friend TG (and Sarah), I agree with your points and think that they are very well made. I had a similar discussion with Sarah a while back, though it focused on jealousy, and I can sense the same frustration in you that I had back then. You might as well give it up! ;-)) Sarah is not going to budge on this issue no matter what! ;-)) She has accumulated a lengthy list of the supposed fruits of sotapanna, from rather odd interpretations of commentary notes, which doesn't match the suttas. My opinion is that if something in the commentaries doesn't match what is in the suttas- then throw it out; but it appears to me that Sarah has the opposite approach- throw out the suttas if they don't match the commentaries. Using the suttas as a guide, I have argued that being a sotapanna is not nearly as difficult as Sarah claims it is. I think that there are quite a few sotapannas on this list! Maybe Sarah wants to be on the side of caution to guard against conceit, I'm not sure. Is that a British thing? ;-)) (just kidding). Metta, James 40095 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 80- Volition/cetanaa (j) Hello Phil, op 22-12-2004 15:40 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >> When we abstain from ill deeds we give others the opportunity to >> live in safety and without fear. > > This is very nice. I certainly think of the benefits I will receive > from abstention and rarely think in the above terms. N: It helps to think of others with metta and compassion. Then there are more conditions for abstention, it can come more naturally. Ph: Everytime we abstain, does it condition another moment of > abstention? Can kusala citta that is an abstention be natural > decisive support condition for a later citta? N: Yes, all good deeds are accumulated. Good tendencies are also accumulated, not only bad ones. Ph: . I remember wondering why there wasn't a class > of abstention included that wasn't conditioned by following precepts, > and wasn't conditioned by social norms, but instead arose from basic > wisdom having been developed. i.e from simply having come to learn > that doing something leads to unpleasant results in the longer run > despite pleasure in the short run. N: Right understanding of dhammas helps most for all kinds of kusala. Your own confort and pleasure will matter less, because all are ephemeral dhammas. But there are also the latent tendencies and these are powerful. Kusala and akusala alternate in our life, we are in the cycle. Nina. 40096 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:00pm Subject: Re: And then there was hearing! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > >There are stories of people in the past who became at > > least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's lectures. > > Yes, though the way all 500 of them become enlightened in some > cases strikes me as pretty...what's the right word...well, far- > fetched for the purpose of inspiring listeners rather than describing > a believable process of enlightenment. Just my opinion, of course. > > >========= Dear Phil, Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and practice correctly. Very rare. Robertk 40097 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Hi Htoo I need the source of where you get this information from. because I need to look at it closely and in what context it is talking from before this conclusion can be based as factual. A human birth does not mean all the objects are kusala vipakas. A human birth only means it is due to kusala kamma. Even though what we experience as vipaka objects are the same as the vipaka is the kusala of our birth as human, it does not mean they should be in the same league. A kusala birth can also experience a akusala object. If in the javana citta, it is akusala, the vipaka will be akusala because tadarammana is the link between the sense and mind door process. The vipaka object will condition the object of the next mind door object. Please provide me the source even in Pali. Thanks Ken O 40098 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 0:18am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > TG: The Suttas describe a Stream-winner in three main different ways from what I can recollect... > > 1) The most basic and perhaps most often way is someone who has full confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha (they are doing the right thing) and "spotless virtues." > > 2) Someone who had eliminated -- personality-belief, doubt, and attachment to rites and rituals. > > 3) Someone who has -- gained the spotless vision that "whatsoever is of the nature to arise, must also be of the nature to cease." …. S: Thankyou for the good summary. This full confidence in the Triple Gem, the eradication (or elimination) of doubt, personality belief (and thereby all other wrong views), attachment to rites and rituals and spotless vision of impermanence are not temporary or partial in anyway. S: See these messages from: Conceit vs Wrong View of Self (Sakkaya-ditthi) 11868, 20141, 22649, 22765, 25213 From a message of Mike’s http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22649 From Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: ”sakkáya-ditthi 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters (samyojana). It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala).” ….. S: As you’ve agreed, all other wrong views depend on sakkaya-ditthi and when it is eradicated, so are they: From SN 41:3 Isidatta (2), Bodhi transl: “Now, householder, are you asking thus: ‘Venerable elder, there are various views that arise in the world: “The world is eternal”….- these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?’ “ “Yes, venerable sir.” “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world is eternal’….-These as well as the sixty two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.” **** >the third is the key of what a Stream-winner is. They basically have come to a complete understanding of the principles of Dependent Origination. By understanding Dependent Origination, they no longer "believe" in a self. The principle of Dependent Origination >makes a "self" an >impossibility so they don't have "self-belief <…> >have no attachments to rites and rituals because rites and rituals are generally "superstitious" and not based on >Dependent Origination. …. S: And here you seem to be stating the case beautifully! No more self view, no more doubts,no more adherence to wrong practices etc. …. > None of this is to say, or even suggest, that all false->views are permanently eradicated. …. S: You mean you don’t believe the elimination of attachment to rites and rituals, the elimination of self view and the perfect confidence in the Triple Gem suggests any complete eradication of false views? Please also read the chapter 16 on Wrong View (di.t.thi) in ‘Cetasikas’. ….. >I don't think there is any Sutta that will make that point > either, but would love to see it if there is. …. S: TG, I think again it depends how one reads the suttas. For example, I discussed SN 22:89 with a friend where the non-returner Khemaka explains the lurking tendency of mana (conceit) remains. ‘This is mine’ refers to craving,taking objects as belonging to self. ‘This am I’ refers to mana and ‘This is my self’ refers to the personality view, sakkaya ditthi, identified with the 5 khandhas. . See#25213 referred to above for my comments. Here ‘this am I’ refers to mana. See also the suttas in Sotaapattisa.myutta, like SN 55:26 (6) Anathapi.n.dika (1). Here Ven Sariputta addresses Anathapindika, a sotapanna at the time: “You, householder, do not have that wrong view which the uninstructed worldling possesses because of which the latter…is reborn in the plane of misery…in hell. And you have right view. As you consider within yourself that right view, your pains may subside on the spot. “You, householder, do not have that wrong intention….etc..And you have right intention etc. Anathapindika’s pains subsided on the spot and he served Ven Sariputta who thanked him: “When one has faith in the Tathagata, Unshakable and well established (acalaa suppati.t.thitaa) And good conduct built on virtue, Dear to the noble ones and praised; “When one has confidence in the Sangha And view that has been rectified (ujubhuuta~nca dassana.m) They say that one is not poor, That one’s life is not vain. “Therefore the person of intelligence, Remembering the Buddha’s Teaching, Should be devoted to faith and virtue, To confidence and vision of the Dhamma (pasaada.m dhammadassana.m).” …. The Buddha later praises Sariputta’s wisdom and his analysis of stream-entry. Metta, Sarah p.s I haven't addressed all your points, just those requesting an asap - others after the holiday wekend probably. ========= 40099 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 80- Volition/cetanaa (j) Hi Phil & All, --- Philip wrote: > I read somewhere about different kinds of abstentions <…> > I wonder if you know the classification of abstentions that I am referring to... …. S: I think you have CMA. See ch11 #6 the Abstinences (virati). BB’s Guide refers to: 1. Natural Abstinence (sampattavirati). [this is the one based on social norms etc] 2. Abstinence by undertaking precepts (samaadaanavirati) 3. Abstinence by eradication (samucchedavirati) Like you, I think the understanding of the eightfold path factors is vey subtle and can only develop with development of satipatthana. Take Right speech (sammaavaacaa) as an example This does not refer to any wholesome speech with metta, saddha, hiri and ottapa. For it to be an eightfold (or sixfold) path factor, it must be the moment of virati (abstention) from unwholesome speech which would otherwise arise at that moment. In other words, it’s the moment of abstention accompanying right understanding, right awareness and so on which ‘guard’ the sense door momentarily so that one is not overcome by attachment, aversion or ignorance. Only this kind of Right Speech or abstention with understanding leads to the eradication of wrong speech, though of course all wholesome cittas accumulate as you say. This is why Right Understanding is always the forerunner. Looking at the commentary briefly, it classifies Right speech as fourfold: a) refraining from false speech b) refraining from divisive speech c) refraining from unkind speech d) refraining from frivolous chatter I also liked the sutta (AN, 8s, IV,#9, Outcomes of Merit) about the various gifts, including that of giving up wrong speech, which give others the freedom from fear, hostility and oppression. Of course, as it says in the sutta, by offering these gifts, we will also enjoy some ‘immeasurable freedom’ too. Of course, this isn’t by thinking of our good result, but by having confidence in valuing the others’ welfare at such times. I was also reminded by the earlier AN sutta in the series where it said that the trifling result of harsh speech was ‘unpleasant noise’ and the result of ‘frivolous speech’ was ‘unacceptable speech’ and so on. No one likes hearing unpleasant noises, but it helps a lot when there is just a brief moment of awareness. As Nina reminded Tep, in the Discourse on the Elephant’s Footprint in MN, “the monk who heard unpleasant sound realized: this is only the impingement of sound on the earsense.”. Yes, sometimes, as Nina also said, the sounds may not even be unpleasant, such as when visiting the doctor, but we can still have have lots of aversion. Just ‘sound’ and then so many stories or even music for some through the mind-door! I appreciate and find I need these reminders a lot.Thank you for raising them. Metta, Sarah p.s So glad to hear your happy computer news for your holiday. So glad you can listen now to the recordings. Do keep sharing snippets. Connie, Chris & Azita –MP3s sent off in the last week. Pls also share snippets and comments with us when you receive them. ================================ 40100 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:29am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 81- Volition/cetanaa (k) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Síla is abstaining from ill deeds which are committed through body or speech, but apart from abstaining from ill deeds there are many other aspects of síla (1). When one abstains from killing it is kusala síla. But also when there is no opportunity for killing there can be kusala síla: someone can make the resolution to spare the lives of all living beings, even of the smallest insects he can hardly see. Even so, someone can make the resolution to abstain from other kinds of akusala kamma, even when the opportunity to commit them has not arisen. For example, when a person has found out that intoxicating drinks have a bad effect, kusala cetanå may take the resolution to refrain in the future from intoxicating drinks. The wholesome intention at such a moment can be a condition for abstaining later on when there is an opportunity for drinking. However, kusala citta is not self, it arises when there are conditions for it. A moment later akusala citta may arise and our good intentions are forgotten. We may be annoyed that we do not live up to our good intentions, but we should remember that kusala citta and akusala citta arise because of their own conditions. *** 1) The Visuddhimagga I, 17 and following, describes many aspects of síla. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40101 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: And then there was Hi RobK, Your post suggests a number of things I would like to draw out further or clarify, if I could. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > >There are stories of people in the past who became at > > least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's lectures. > > Yes, though the way all 500 of them become enlightened in some > cases strikes me as pretty...what's the right word...well, far- > fetched for the purpose of inspiring listeners rather than describing > a believable process of enlightenment. Just my opinion, of course. > > >========= Dear Phil, Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and practice correctly. Very rare. Robertk ==== If I understand correctly, in the Theravadan scheme of things, there is no difference between beings in the length of time they have wandered on. Is there an explanation for the differences between beings? Why are some deeply covered with avijja, while some develop the parami in the selfsame aeons? What accounts for the differences in accumulations? If all being is a matter of conditionality, can you say something about the how and why of differences? Kind Regards Herman 40102 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:16am Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Larry, I think this is a very sound :-) post. You highlight issues that are very, very big and not to be taken lightly. When you write "This sense of externality is the primary validation for a separate self" you are writing the introduction to what, with all the working out, would amount to an encyclopedia in its own right. "Relationship as concept", I feel a few chapters coming on. Where to begin, I don't know, but I'm happy to join in :-) Kind Regards Herman PS I know you like the Vis., how do you reckon it relates to Upatissa's Vimutti-Magga? Hi Herman, I agree with your reservations about the externality of sound and came up with a few of my own. For example, what is the external mind base external to, the internal mind base? If a sound is external to the ear, what and where is hearing consciousness? It is nama, so neither external nor internal. Hearing consciousness is the only sound we know. However, there is a way to see an object external to consciousness. We can see a visible object is external to touch consciousness, therefore we reach. We can see that someone is not conscious of what we are conscious of. On a more complex level, we can listen to the same recording many times and hear something different every time. But I agree these are complex perceptual and evaluative processes; not bare sense consciousness. This sense of externality is the primary validation for a separate self but without a sense of self I would think spacial relationships are still valid. But who knows? Maybe not. Relationship is a concept. [Oops, sorry, can of worms] In the Satipatthana Sutta the main point of the "dhamma" of external and internal sense bases is that the fetters arise dependent on these bases. Externality doesn't seem to be an issue but dependent arising is. Larry 40103 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: And then there was --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > > > > >========= > Dear Phil, > Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen > to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become > sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. > If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered > with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. > But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a > Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had > developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. > At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those > who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if > they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and > practice correctly. Very rare. > Robertk > > ==== > > If I understand correctly, in the Theravadan scheme of things, there is > no difference between beings in the length of time they have wandered > on. Is there an explanation for the differences between beings? Why are > some deeply covered with avijja, while some develop the parami in the > selfsame aeons? What accounts for the differences in accumulations? If > all being is a matter of conditionality, can you say something about the > how and why of differences? > ============= Dear Herman, Even within this life we can see how at times we accumulate good qualities and at times the reverse. It is happening all the time. The difference between beings is because of kamma and accumulations. In the texts there is a common phrase "She/he too having made the resolve under former Buddhas and heaping up good of aeon enduring efficacy in this and that state of becoming, being born in fortunate circumstances took birth in this buddha sasana....." and then listened to the buddha and attained. It was often no straight path: The nun Isidasi became an arahant and recalled her past lives* http://people.westminstercollege.edu/faculty/mmarkowski/212/4/isidasi .htm "I learned of my own last seven births; I shall relate to you the actions of which this misfortune is the fruit and result; listen to it attentively. In the city of Erakaccha I was a wealthy goldsmith. Intoxicated by pride in my youth, I had sexual intercourse with another's wife. Having fallen from there, I was cooked in hell; I cooked for a long time; and rising up from there I entered the womb of a female monkey. A great monkey, leader of the herd, castrated me when I was seven days old; this was the fruit of the action of having seduced another's wife. I died in the Sindhava forest and entered the womb of a one-eyed, lame she-goat. As a goat I was castrated, worm-eaten, tail-less, unfit, because of having seduced another's wife. Next I was born of a cow belonging to a cattle-dealer; a lac-red calf. I was castrated after twelve months and drew the plough, pulled the cart, and became blind, tail-less, unfit, because of having seduced another's wife. Then I was born of a household slave in the street, neither as a woman or a man, because of having seduced another's wife. In my thirtieth year I died; I was born as a girl in a carter's family which was poor and much in debt. To satisfy the creditors, I was sold to a caravan leader and dragged off, wailing, from my home. Then in my sixteenth year when I had arrived at marriageable age, his son, Giridasa by name, took me as a wife. But he had another wife, virtuous and possessed of good qualities, who was affectionate towards her husband; with her I stirred up enmity. This [my misfortunes] were fruit of that last action, that men rejected me though I served like a slave girl. "" This is only the seven births prior to becoming an arahant- before this she had made much good accumulations under prior Buddhas. Sometimes one could have much parami and even become a monk but make bad kamma :from Dhammapada commentary http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm Verses 334-337 The Story of Kapila the Fish While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (334), (335), (336) and (337) of this book, with reference to a fish with a lovely, golden colour and a stinking mouth. During the time of Kassapa Buddha, there was a bhikkhu named Kapila, who was very learned in the Pitakas. Because of his great learning he gained much fame and fortune; he also became very conceited and was full of contempt for other bhikkhus. When other bhikkhus pointed out to him, what was proper or not proper he invariably retorted, "How much do you know?" implying that he knew much more than those bhikkhus. In course of time, all good bhikkhus shunned him and only the bad ones gathered round him. On one sabbath day, while the bhikkhus were reciting the Fundamental Precepts for the bhikkhus (i.e., the Patimokkha) Kapila said, "There is no such thing as Sutta, Abhidhamma, or Vinaya. It makes no difference whether you have a chance to listen to the Patimokkha or not, " etc., and left the congregation of the bhikkhus. Thus, Kapila was a hindrance to the development and growth of the Teaching (Sasana). For this evil deed, Kapila had to suffer in niraya between the time of Kassapa Buddha and Gotama Buddha. Later, he was reborn as a fish in the Aciravati River. That fish, as mentioned above, had a very beautiful golden body, but his mouth had a very horrid, offensive smell. One day, that fish was caught by some fishermen, and because it was so beautiful, they took it in a boat to the king. The king, in his turn took the fish to the Buddha. When the fish opened its mouth, the horrid and offensive smell spread all around. The king then asked the Buddha why such a beautiful fish should have such a horrid and offensive smell. To the king and the audience, the Buddha explained, "O king! During the time of Kassapa Buddha there was a very learned bhikkhu who taught the Dhamma to others. Because of that good deed, when he was reborn in another existence, even as a fish, he was endowed with a golden body. But that bhikkhu was very greedy, proud and very contemptuous of others; he also disregarded the Disciplines and abused other bhikkhus. For these evil deeds, he was reborn in niraya, and now, he has become a beautiful fish with a mouth that stinks." The Buddha then turned to the fish and asked whether it knew where it would be going in its next existence. The fish answered that it would have to go again to niraya and it was filled with great despair. As predicted, on its death the fish was reborn in niraya, to undergo another term of continuous torment."""endquote. It is very hard to do good and so for all this accountable number of aeons we have been in samsara- sometimes as deva, sometimes as human, and often as animal or hell being, or peta. RobertK 40104 From: Philip Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: And then there was hearing! Hi Rob > Dear Phil, > Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen > to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become > sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. > If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered > with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. > But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a > Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had > developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. Interesting. "The parami to be born when a Buddha was still alive." I'd never thought of that before. > At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those > who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if > they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and > practice correctly. Very rare. I see. Thanks Rob. Always appreciated. Metta, Phil 40105 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Ken O, Thanks for your reply. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O wrote: Hi Htoo I need the source of where you get this information from. because I need to look at it closely and in what context it is talking from before this conclusion can be based as factual. A human birth does not mean all the objects are kusala vipakas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Where did you get this idea? Did I say like this before. Human rebirth means 'manussa patisandhi'. Manussa patisandhi means the first citta in that given life is one of 8 mahavipaka cittas. And it may still be 'ahetuka kusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta' if there is reduction of faculties. Anyway all these 9 cittas are vipaka cittas. All are kusala vipaka cittas. One is ahetuka and 8 are sahetuka. All are vipaka. Not kusala. But they all must be 'kusala vipaka citta'. This is about patisandhi citta. If bhavanga cittas the same applies. And so does cuti citta. You said, 'all the objects'. I am not clear what you said of that. Do you mean 'arammana'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O wrote: A human birth only means it is due to kusala kamma. Even though what we experience as vipaka objects are the same as the vipaka is the kusala of our birth as human, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have no idea what you are talking on 'vipaka object'. What is 'vipaka object'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hen O wrote: it does not mean they should be in the same league. A kusala birth can also experience a akusala object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not clear. What is 'a akusala object'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O wrote: If in the javana citta, it is akusala, the vipaka will be akusala because tadarammana is the link between the sense and mind door process. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why? Is this your assumption? Or is there any supporting evidence for this. 1. if javana is akusala, the vipaka will be akusala 2. tadarammana is the link between the sense and mind door process. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O wrote: The vipaka object will condition the object of the next mind door object. Please provide me the source even in Pali. Thanks Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think as 'The vipaka object' is not clear to me, you will have to explain it first. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40106 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Dhamma Friends, Arammana or object serves as a supporter of a consciousness while vatthu or base serves as a ground for consciousness. Vatthu will be discussed later. There are 6 arammanas or 6 objects. They are 1. ruparammana or visual object 2. saddarammana or sound object 3. gandharammana or smell object 4. rasarammana or taste object 5. photthabbarammana or touch object 6. dhammarammana or mind-object The first 5 objects are all rupa dhamma. The 6th object is a mixture. 1. vanna or colour of different brightness serves as visual object. 2. sadda or sound serves as auditory object. 3. gandha or smell serves as aromatic object. 4. rasa or taste serves as gustatory object. 5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object So the 1st 5 physical senses are actually these 7 paramattha rupas. Pathavi, tejo, and vayo serve as tangible object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40107 From: upasaka_howard Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: And then there was Hi, Herman (and Robert) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > Your post suggests a number of things I would like to draw out further > or clarify, if I could. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > > > > >There are stories of people in the past who became at > > > least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's > lectures. > > > > Yes, though the way all 500 of them become enlightened in some > > cases strikes me as pretty...what's the right word...well, far- > > fetched for the purpose of inspiring listeners rather than > describing > > a believable process of enlightenment. Just my opinion, of course. > > > > >========= > Dear Phil, > Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen > to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become > sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. > If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered > with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. > But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a > Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had > developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. > At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those > who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if > they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and > practice correctly. Very rare. > Robertk > > ==== > > If I understand correctly, in the Theravadan scheme of things, there is > no difference between beings in the length of time they have wandered > on. Is there an explanation for the differences between beings? Why are > some deeply covered with avijja, while some develop the parami in the > selfsame aeons? What accounts for the differences in accumulations? If > all being is a matter of conditionality, can you say something about the > how and why of differences? > > Kind Regards > > Herman ============================= Your question is very interesting. Here's my attempt at an "answer": Were it the case that beings were created (out of nothing) at some point in time by some force or creator god or whatever, then the simple answer would be that beings were created with differing (initial) dispositions, inclinations, and characteristics, and their own actions and choices took it from there. However, without the assumption of initial creation, I think the question becomes meaningless. One might say "Well, a being is as s/he is due to the events that have befallen that being and his/her reaction to them." But then the question is what led to those events befalling that person in particular, and why did s/he react as s/he did. That gets answered by "kamma", but that simply pushes the same question further back in time, and since there is no initial time, there will be no ultimate answer, and one ends up saying simply that "It is what it is." With metta, Howard 40108 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (197) Dear Dhamma Friends, In arammana matter, 5 physical senses are all paramattha rupas. 1. vanna or colour is for eye-consciousness 2. sadda or sound is for ear-consciousness 3. gandha or smell is for nose-consciousness 4. rasa or taste is for tongue-consciousness 5. photthabbarammana includes three paramattha rupas. They are pathavi or consistency of materials, tejo or temperature of materials, and vayo or resiliency of materials. 6. dhammarammana includes 6 separate dhammas. Dhammarammanas are a) 5 pasada rupas b) 16 sukhuma rupas c) 89 cittas d) 52 cetasikas e) 1 nibbana f) 0 panatti dhamma 5 pasada rupas are 1. cakkhu pasada, 2.sota pasada, 3.ghana pasada, 4.jivha pasada, and 5.kaya pasada. All these are not object of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching but for intellectual touching or thinking. 16 sukhuma rupas are 1. apo or cohesiveness (water) 2. purisatta bhava rupa (maleness) 3. itthatta bhava rupa (femaleness) 4. hadaya rupa (hadaya vatthu or heart-base) 5. jivita rupa (life-faculty) 6. ahara rupa (nutriment) 7. pariccheda rupa (akasa or space) 8. kaya vinatti rupa (gesture) 9. vaci vinatti rupa (speech/voice) 10.rupa lahuta rupa (lightness of rupa) 11.rupa muduta rupa (pliability of rupa) 12.rupa kammannata rupa ( workableness of rupa) 13.upacaya rupa (initial formation of rupa) 14.santati rupa ( sustained formation of rupa) 15.jarata rupa (wearing of rupa or getting oldness of rupa ) 16.aniccata rupa (disappearance of rupa) c) 89 cittas d) 52 cetasikas e) 1 nibbana f) 0 pannatti dhamma All these have been explained in previous posts under Dhamma Thread heading. So 5 pasada rupas, 16 sukhuma rupas, 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas, 1 nibbana and 0 pannatti dhamma can serve as an object. It is mind- sense- object. It is dhammarammana. (5+16+89+52+1+1= 164 objects at each vithi vara ) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40109 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG, op 23-12-2004 02:11 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > I'm looking at the term "wrong-view" as "seeing things incorrectly." If we > want to call it based on conceit, or based on view...its of little concern to > me. The main thing is that it is incorrect seeing and it is not fully > eliminated until arahatship. N: Yes, wrong view is a distorted view of realities. TG: Conceit means that phenomena are still be viewed falsely. I would think that > it is the "viewing falsely" that causes conceit 'I am' and not the other way > around. Although they would lend mutual support to each other in continuing > the level of delusional processing of experience. N: For the non-ariyan ditthi, wrong view and mana, conceit, arise alternately, and wrong view supports conceit. There are many degrees of conceit, coarse and more subtle. The arahat has eradicated the most subtle conceit. Now, to understand the difference I would look at these two cetasikas that have different characteristics. Wrong view: A person who is about to die, may wrestle with annihilation belief and eternity view. He cannot accept that his life is all over, there must be something, a soul that lasts and continues unto the next life. This is wrong view. He fails to see the Middle Way: his last citta falls away and conditions the arising of the rebirthconsciousness. His next life is conditioned by this life that is about to end. All good tendencies and bad tendencies of this life are accumulated in each citta and go on to the next life from moment to moment. Conceit: you compare yourself with others, but also when you do not compare there can be conceit. You give yourself a pat on the back, I did this very well. Or you are praised: how good I am. I wrote a good post. You let the banner fly (Expositor). It has self-praise as function, its proximate cause is greed dissociated from wrong view, it should be considered as a lunacy. It is all a lunacy. See the sobering list of the Book of Analysis (Ch 17, §832): pride of gain, of being respected, of erudition, of intelligence, etc. For us worldlings, it is hard to see the different characteristics of ditthi and mana, they can arise closely one afther the other. Actually, when there is right awareness and understanding when they appear there will be no doubt. But insight has to be developed stage by stage. In the suttas we often read: this is mine, eta.m mama, this am I , esoham asmi, this is myself, eso me attaa. The Book of Analysis and the Co explain these as: lobha, conceit and ditthi. See B.B. Root of Existence, p. 10. Asmi mana is one form of conceit. There are many forms. B.B. explains the many forms of wrong view, such as personality belief, with reference to each of the five khandhas (p. 12). S./N. III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, § 89, Khema, here conceit is explained very well. Dasaka asks Khemaka whether he is an arahat. Khemaka explains. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.89 Khemaka Sutta About Khemaka Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One -- i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'" .... Then Ven. Khemaka, leaning on his staff, went to the elder monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the elder monks said to him, "Friend Khemaka, this 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'? Do you say, 'I am form,' or do you say, 'I am something other than form'? Do you say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' or do you say, 'I am something other than consciousness''? This 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'?" ... "In the same way, friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.' "Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated. "Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated. "In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated." ... Nina. 40110 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread (198) Dear Dhamma Friends, H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta There are 1. 46 ruparammanika cittas 2. 46 saddarammanika cittas 3. 46 gandharammanika cittas 4. 46 rasarammanika cittas 5. 46 photthabbarammanika cittas 6. 67 dhammarammanika cittas 46 ruparammanika cittas are cittas that is supported by ruparammana or visual object. Without visual object there cannot be any of these 46 cittas. So they can be called as ruparammanika cittas. They are the same cittas at arise at cakkhu pasada or cakkhu dvara. 1. 1 panadvaravajjana citta 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas 4. 3 santirana cittas 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta ) 6. 29 kama javana cittas (12 akusala + 1 hasituppada + 8 mahakusala + 8 mahakiriya) 7. 8 mahavipaka cittas(working as tadarammana cittas) ------ 46 cittas In saddarammanika cittas 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas are replaced by 2 sotavinnana cittas and other are the same. So do other arammanaika cittas of 5 senses. Unlike other cittas, these total 54 kamavacara cittas when arise as arammanika cittas they take the present object. And they can never take the past object or the future object or kalavimutta object like nibbana and panatti dhamma. But 67 dhammarammanika cittas can take all 6 senses or 6 arammanas of the present, the past, the future, and timeless phenomena like nibbana and panatti dhamma. These 67 dhammarammanika cittas are 1. 1 manodvaravajjana citta 2. 55 javana cittas ( 29 kama javana and 26 mahaggata javana ) 26 mahaggata javana cittas are (5rupakusala+5rupakiriya+4arupakusala+4arupakiriya+8lokuttara) 3. 11 tadarammana cittas ( 3 santirana + 8 mahavipaka ) ------- 67 cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40111 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:28am Subject: The Buddha, Ananda and The First Discourse Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha was under the Bo tree and there were fisrt 5 disciples of The Buddha in front of The Buddha. They were still not bhikkhus. They were just hermits. On the full moon day that is 60 days of His Buddhahood, The Buddha preached His first discourse to these 5 disciples. Even though there were just 6 human beings including The Buddha, there were countless beings who were listening the discourse. The Buddha first preached The Dhamma called ''Dhammacakkapa'' or wheel of Dhamma. There were Kondanna, Vappa, Baddiya, Mahanama, and Assaji in the deer park called ''Isipatana'' on the full moonday of 4th month of Buddha calendar or on the 60th day of Buddhahood as Brahma King ''Sahampati'' requested. Ananda retold his first-hand knowledge of The Buddha first discourse at 1st sangayana or Buddhist Council as he heard through his own ears from the live Buddha. Ananda answered this discourse to Mahakassapa and attenders of the first Sangha Council ( Sangayana ). Once , Bhagava, when He was in the deer park ' Isipatana ' in Varanasi, said to His first five disciples at the foot of Bodhi-tree ( Banyan ): '' O Monks! Those who have been ordained have to avoid two extreme things which are extremely bad in terms of Way for liberation. The first is called ' Kamasukhallikanuyogo ' which arises along with sensural pleasure as boosted by Chandha Raga and Tanha. '' '' And the second is called 'Attakilamathanuyogo ' which arises along with self tortures such as sleeping on thorns, non-justifiable avoiding eating of enough food for health etc. These two extremes are to be avoided if one intends for liberation.'' '' After avoiding these two extremes, you have to hold the middle path called ' Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight-factored Path. Following this path will already exclude two extremes. This path comprises Samma Ditthi, Samma Sankappa, Samma Vaca, Samma Kammanta, Samma Ajiva, Samma Vayama, Samma Sati, and Samma Samadhi. All these 8 factors are Magganga or parts of the path.'' '' Jati, Jara, Vyadhi, Marana, accompanying with hatred ones, departing from beloved ones, not obtaining what one wants, five Upadanakkhandha or 5 clingings are all Dukkha. Realising all these as Dukkha is the first Ariya's Sacca called Dukkha Ariya's Sacca.'' ''Kama Tanha or sensual desire, Bhava Tanha or desire for eternal life and Vibhava Tanha or desire of complete ceasation of all after death are all the cause of Dukkha and this Tanha or Samudaya becomes the second Ariya's Sacca which has to be eradicated.'' '' There is a state that completely ... free of all forms of Dukkha, ...devoid of any Dukkha ...exists as ceasation of all Dukkha ...releases all attachment and clinging ...totally deserts all Tanha hooked things ...escapes from all forms of Dukkha ...stays absolutely detached to anything. That state is called Nibbana. This state of ceasation becomes the third Ariya's Sacca. '' ' Ariya Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight- factored Path is called Majjimapatipada or the middle path, which refrains from two extremes of Kamasukhallikanuyogo or staying with sensual pleasure and Attakilamathanuyogo or staying self torturing.This path is called Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada or simply 'suffering ceasing path practice '. This Noble Eightfold Path becomes the fourth Ariya's Sacca.'' Tathagata continued.. '' O Monks! I have got eye-sight ( Cakkhu ) into these matters, knowledge ( Nana ) of these matters,realization ( Panna ) of these matters at their full length, penetrative wisdom ( Vijja ) to these matters, and a bright light that strikes away all darkness that hides these Sacca.'' '' O monks! I have got the wisdom that can reveal complete picture of Dukkha, this is Dukkha, this Dukkha has this dimension, it is not more than this dimension and it is not less than this dimension and I have got the wisdom that figures out any Dukkha.'' '' Such things which I have never known before now come to me as I have got eye-sight, knowledge, realization at full length, penetrative wisdom and the bright light casting on Sacca.'' '' O Monks! Tanha is the source of Dukkha. There are three kinds called Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha and Vibhava Tanha. As there are six senses, there are 18 Tanha. Ijjatta ( inside ) and Bahiddha ( outside ) make 36 Tanha. There are three temporal existances of present past and future so there are 108 Tanha. I have realized all these Tanha. As I have realized I have eradicated Ditthi and Vicikiccha through Sotapatti Magga, eradicated Kama Raga through Anagami Magga and Rupa and Arupa Tanha through Arahatta Magga. I have eradicated the second Sacca Samudaya which is the cause of sufferings.'' '' O Monks! The state called Nibbana is devoid of all forms of Dukkha. I have seen it with my mind-eye. Nibbana can be ' Sa- Upadisesa ' that is when alive being realization of that state and ' Anupadisesa ' that is total extinguishment of all fire of Dukkha which comes next to death.'' '' Nibbana can be called ' Sunnata Nibbana ', or ' Animitta Nibbana ' or ' Appanihita Nibbana '. These three are states and they arise from how Ariyas see the Dhamma on their path. If they view with Anatta Sanna ( recognition as Anatta ), Nibbana becomes Sunnata Nibbana. If see with Anicca Sanna ( recognition as Anicca ), Nibbana is Animitta Nibbana and if with Dukkha, it becomes Appanihita Nibbana.'' '' O Monks! I have realized the ceasation of all Dukkha through Magga Nana, Phala Nana, Paccavakkhana Nana. This state of ceasation of all Dukkha or Nibbana becomes the third Ariya's Sacca.'' '' O Monks! The fourth Sacca is Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada Ariya's Sacca. It is Noble eightfold Path or Ariya Atthingiko Maggo. This path is to be maintained in the state of increasing amount and make abundant and proliferate and to be practised.'' '' O Monks! As long as I have not seen all these Sacca, I have not admitted that I have seen these. When I have realized all, I admit that I have realized all these Dhamma through Arahatta Magga Nana and Sabbannuta Nana. My this very life is the last life in Samsara and I definitely will not have any more rebirth.'' The first five disciples all liked the first discourse and they wailed Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! aloud. Kondanna became Sotapam immediately after the discourse and he asked for monkhood under The Buddha Sasana or teachings. The Buddha allowed him and called him '' Come on Bhikkhu '' and Kondanna became the very first member of Sangha in The Buddha Sasana. After the discourse, earth Deva wailed that '' Gotama The Buddha has preached Dhammacakkappa, which no other Satta can never ever ever can do so. This wailing spread to Catu Maharaja Deva realm, Tavatimsa Deva realm, Yama Deva realm, Tusita Deva realm, Nimmanarati Deva realm, Paranimmitavassavati Deva realm and Brahma realms. The Buddha announced that Kondanna realized Ariya Sacca through Sotapatti Magga. Since then Kondanna became '' Annasi Kondanna ''. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40112 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:49am Subject: What is time ? Dear all For no apparent reason I was thinking today on a theme I have studies before: "What is 'time' in Abhidhamma", and in Buddhism in general ?. Three important publications were: Nyanaponika 'The problem of time' in 'Abhidhamma Studies' (chapter 5) Karunadasa 'Time and space: The Abhidhamma perspective' Kalupahana 'Buddhist Conception of Time and Temporality' (but I know not everybody in DSG likes Kalupahana) When these authors are right and 'time' doesn't belong to the paramattha dhamms (it does belong to it in a mahayana Abhidharma) then it is a concept, a conventional phenomena and we are free to have theories about the concept time. Even in a way I say sometimes semi-serious: "Time doesn't exist, it's an illusion". Before I posted this message I have looked in 'Useful Posts' to check if there are messages that I am repeated now. But I think this is another discussion about time. It's a pity that the people doing study about the theme of "time" in Abhidhamma (or Tipitaka in general) don't have studied the philosophy of time in broader sense. Thinking about time in general is extreme difficult because we have two strong suppositions, two biases we can hardly release, like the atta-belief: - The idea that there is an 'arrow of time", that in the time- dimension the moment "now" can only go in one direction. But why should that be so, it's just conventional thinking. It may be true but we are not sure in advance. - The idea that time is continue, that a period of time, how short it is, always can be divided in two shorter periods. In some physical theories (some string theories) the time-dimension is discrete: there are undividable quanta of time. - The idea that there is "one time dimension". There are in conventional physics three space dimensions and in modern physics four or even ten. So why isn't it possible that there are two (or more) time-dimensions ? When something is happening in one time- dimension it can be the "now", the 'present moment" during that happening in another time-dimension. Thinking that there is just one time-dimension is conventional thinking. I think this aspects can be important for dhamma-study too. Thye idea of discreteness of time corresponds to the Abhidhamma- processes, I think Another exemple: death consciousness (cuti-citta) of this existence occurs at the end of the dying process; the next consciousness is the rebirth-linking consciousness. From the buddhistic stories I have read about rebirth I get the impression that this consciousness can travel in space: tens till thousands of kilometers; so why should this consciousness not travel in time, or move along another time- dimension? When my study is bringing me to new insights that maybe interesting for dsg-members, I post again Metta Joop 40113 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:57am Subject: Re: What is time ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > I think > Another exemple: death consciousness (cuti-citta) of this existence > occurs at the end of the dying process; the next consciousness is the > rebirth-linking consciousness. From the buddhistic stories I have > read about rebirth I get the impression that this consciousness can > travel in space: tens till thousands of kilometers; ========= Dear Joop, The death consciousness doesn't travel anywhere. It arises and passes away. But it is a condition for a new citta, patisandhi citta, that arises immediately uopn the falling away of cuti citta. As you say it could be far away, even much more than thousand of kilometers. robertk 40114 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:07am Subject: Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, all - Sorry to bother you with this. I'm subscribed to a number of the groups on Yahoo, receiving messages in my email in-box. However, I have received no emails from any of these groups, including DSG, for the last 17 hours. Is there anyone else experiencing the same? If yes, then I presume there is a problem at Yahoo. If not, then there must be a problem with my own Yahoo settings, though that doesn't seem to be the case in checking the web site. I would appreciate any feedback on this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40115 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, Howard - There was a mail in my Inbox at 5:47 A.M. CT today (from Bhikkhu Smahita). Right noe my local time is 11:58 A.M. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Sorry to bother you with this. I'm subscribed to a number of the > groups on Yahoo, receiving messages in my email in-box. However, I have received no > emails from any of these groups, including DSG, for the last 17 hours. Is > there anyone else experiencing the same? If yes, then I presume there is a > problem at Yahoo. If not, then there must be a problem with my own Yahoo settings, > though that doesn't seem to be the case in checking the web site. I would > appreciate any feedback on this. > > With metta, > Howard > 40116 From: upasaka_howard Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, Tep - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Howard - > > There was a mail in my Inbox at 5:47 A.M. CT today (from Bhikkhu > Smahita). Right noe my local time is 11:58 A.M. > > > Regards, > > > Tep ========================== Thanks for the reply. (I'm replying to you from the web site.) So it's been about 6 hours of no mails for you. For me it's been 21 hours, except for one msg about an hour ago from another yahoo list. There also seems to me to be a dearth of messages at the web site, on all the lists I subscribe to. Ah, well! ;-) Thanks again for you reply. With metta, Howard 40117 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:42am Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails Hello Howard, Except for one list, I always read at the websites. However, the one list that I do receive individual emails from (IP) has been operating as usual - emails arriving in my in box as they are posted. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Sorry to bother you with this. I'm subscribed to a number of the > groups on Yahoo, receiving messages in my email in-box. However, I have received no > emails from any of these groups, including DSG, for the last 17 hours. Is > there anyone else experiencing the same? If yes, then I presume there is a > problem at Yahoo. If not, then there must be a problem with my own Yahoo settings, > though that doesn't seem to be the case in checking the web site. I would > appreciate any feedback on this. > > With metta, > Howard > 40118 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: And then there was Hi Howard and RobK, Thanks for your replies. I see the possibility of a connection between the "conditionality only" view and the double predestination of Calvin. The latter entails that God preordained that some should/would be saved and that the rest be damned. Peoples' lives are merely the unfolding of God's will. There is nothing that is not pre-determined. The conditionality only view (in which there also is nothing that is not determined) is likewise just the unfolding and refolding and unfolding of conditions. Both views allow for an omniscience that knows all futures, but under Calvin's system, God has the option of changing his mind (which, of course, he would also have known about beforehand). I have snipped both your posts only because I am not referring to them directly. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 40119 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yahoo Groups Emails Hi Howard, I think it's a Yahoo problem. I just posted two replies from my own mail program and neither showed up at Yahoo. However, you probably won't get this one either so I'm not sure why I'm writing it. Larry 40120 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:46pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Herman: "PS I know you like the Vis., how do you reckon it relates to Upatissa's Vimutti-Magga?" Hi Herman, Vimuttimagga has a very similar format, appears to be earlier, and is much simpler. Not nearly as polished and elegant. What we have is an English translation of a Chinese translation. I'm not sure what language it was originally written in, Pali or Ceylonese. Incidentally, I've been contemplating the "dhamma" of the ayatanas. As it happens it is rather interesting to notice that this presently arising fetter is dependent on that rupa. It makes it seem that the fetter is less solid or monumental somehow. Larry 40121 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Htoo: "5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object" Hi Htoo, Would you say a little more on pathavi and vayo? Also, what about other kinds of bodily sensation such as a back ache or tooth ache or a cut finger or a burn or upset stomach etc.? It seems difficult sometimes to distinguish between bodily sensation and bodily feeling (vedana). Larry 40123 From: upasaka_howard Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:11pm Subject: HELP! Re: What is time ? Hi, all - This post to which I'm replying is the most recent Triplegem post I see on the web site. (Have there been other ones since that one?) I've been receiving *no emails* from Triplegem or any other of the Yahoo groups (including DSG, Dhamma List, and Insight Practice, among others, for about 26 hours). Is there anyone else, especially folks with AOL as internet provider, who are having the same problem, and does anyone have a solution? Can the Triplegem owner please help? In case other AOL folks are having this problem, could you please report it to AOL? Maybe that will help, though it hasn't helped me. With metta, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" > wrote: > > > > I think > > Another exemple: death consciousness (cuti-citta) of this > existence > > occurs at the end of the dying process; the next consciousness is > the > > rebirth-linking consciousness. From the buddhistic stories I have > > read about rebirth I get the impression that this consciousness > can > > travel in space: tens till thousands of kilometers; > ========= > Dear Joop, > The death consciousness doesn't travel anywhere. It arises and > passes away. But it is a condition for a new citta, patisandhi > citta, that arises immediately uopn the falling away of cuti citta. > As you say it could be far away, even much more than thousand of > kilometers. > robertk 40124 From: Philip Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Nina, Larry and all > > This "immediately overwhelmed" gets at what happens in Honeyball > > Sutta and so many others - the way we proliferate so quickly starting > > from the point at which there is contact. Who doesn't? The monk who > > "stops at seeing." > N: Yes, I read: whatevere is the origin of anumber of obsessions and > perceptions...if there is nothing to rejoice at...this in itself is an end > to the latent tendency of sense desire... aversion... etc. Those latent > tendencies condition the attachment with feeling. etc. Phil: Not only "rejoice at", right? I mean, we are even more likely to have aversion to sense objects - I am, at least. This is why the question "is there seeing now?" is so important. Understanding that it is a much more difficult question than it appears to be helps us get at understanding this vital point at which proliferation occurs. We grasp at features, grasp at "signs" - our mind is so hungry to put together visual information, to label it, attach signs to it, feel it, feed on it, proliferate on it. When we begin to see how quickly this happens, how little control we have over it - we begin to sense the black curtain of ignorance K Sujin talks about - we can get discouraged. But at least now we know what the truth of the matter is and there are no more comforting illusions about quick fixes. It will take a long time, through patient appreciation of moments of understanding that arise due to conditions. But there needn't be fear - the Buddha told us that we *can* abandon the unwholesome, and we will if we are patient. But it's so hard to be patient for Westerners, especially North Americans like me. (This is just my hunch.) We have the "I can fix it now!" mentality. We cling to accomplishments in this one lifetime, and that throws us off the path. > Ph: I read somewhere that wise attention is related in some way to > > *not* being subject to those 4 illusions - I can't remember what > > they're called now, and I have to run - the illusions which make us > > see the beautiful in the foul, the permanent in the impermanent and > > so on. So when we fail to see the impermanence of feelings, we get > > caught up in them and proliferate. > N: In the next para of the Vis. , 126, the Co stresses in particular wise > attention as a condition for feeling to be kusala and unwise attention for > feeling to be akusala. I think that the reason is that feelings are very > predominant. When there is wise attention they do not overwhelm us. > I am glad about your input. Phil: I am finding so many helpful reminders about wise attention in suttas. SN XXXVI.3 "When one expereinces pleasure, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to lust is present. When one expereinces pain, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is present." And of course this happens all the time, except for rare moments of understanding. But it seems to me that the understanding can arise more and more quickly. We proliferate all the time, but we come to put out the fire faster. The sutta on yoniso manasikaara SN IX.11 tells us that we are "being chewed" by our thoughts. How true for me. And how true that a moment of awareness of one reality through one of the six doors takes the teeth of my neck! I know there is not nibanna now, but there is certainly "not being chewed upon now" and that is welcome! I know that hearing the India talks will help me a lot to understand this. > Ph: The first dart of bodily feeling leads to the second dart of mental > feeling as one sutta in SN puts it. > N: I remember. When you have aversion of pain, you make it worse, another > dart. Phil: We read this sutta and understand it so clearly. But then it's gone. So to use the "chewed by our thoughts" simile, it's like we allow our minds to chew upon the wound. Ouch! A moment of awareness of one reality through one of the six doors shines light on the wound that helps to heal it. Panna shines that light. > Ph: As we know, seeing the impermanence (annica) of dhammas leads to > > seeing dukkha in them. And do seeing these two characteristics lead > > to seeing anatta? > N: The three characteristics are closely connected, see the suttas of > K.S.IV. But depending on the individual, one of these three may be seen more > often than the others. Just before enlightenment, one characteristic is > seen, but this means, they are all three penetrated. Phil: I notice quite often in many suttas, it seems that the Buddha mentions impermanence twice, and doesn't mention not-self. Many times. For example, in the sutta about oneself as an island, (SN XXII,43) there is "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to change." So depending on the individual, yes, when it comes to profound insight at stages of enlightenment, when one of the characterisitic arises, but in terms of daily insight, intellectual insight, I wonder if it isn't easier to understand impermanence, and whether this is why so often the Buddha seems to mention it twice and leaves anatta to the side. What does the Thai commentary say about this "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to change" that appears so often. Why doesn't it mention not-self? I know you're very busy, Nina, so if you could just check this last question when you have time. Thanks in advance. And thanks to you and Sarah for your helpful feedback on abstinence in the Cetasikas thread. Metta, Phil 40125 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:40pm Subject: Vism.XIV,126 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 126. But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as the characteristic of being felt, it is nevertheless threefold as to kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. Herein, it should be understood that when associated with the profitable consciousness described in the way beginning '(1)-(8) That of the sense sphere is eightfold, being classified according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting' (par.83), it is 'profitable';54 that associated with unprofitable consciousness is 'unprofitable'; that associated with indeterminate consciousness is 'indeterminate'. [461] ------------------------ Note 54. 'This should be regarded as a secondary characteristic (upalakka.na) of profitable feeling, that is to say, the fact that whatever profitable feeling there is, is all associated with profitable consciousness. That, however, is not for the purpose of establishing its profitableness. For the profitableness of profitable feeling is not due to its association with profitable consciousness, but rather to wise attention and so on. That is why he said "as to kind". So too in the case of the unprofitable and so on' (Pm.481). 40126 From: upasaka_howard Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, Larry - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I think it's a Yahoo problem. I just posted two replies from my own mail > program and neither showed up at Yahoo. However, you probably won't get > this one either so I'm not sure why I'm writing it. > > Larry ========================== It's showed up now on the web site, which is where I'm replying from. In the last 28 to 30 hours, I've only received a total of two emails out of the total of 9 Yahoo groups I subscribe to! I *hope* it's a (temporary) Yahoo problem. Otherwise, I am effectively not subscribed to any of the lists and will probably just have to give them up. I made phone calls to both Yahoo & AOL, and no one has any idea. Thanks very much for writing. You or amyone who wants to reach me for any reason can, of course, email me directly at upasaka@a.... With metta, Howard 40127 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:32pm Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Howard, > > Except for one list, I always read at the websites. However, the > one list that I do receive individual emails from (IP) has been > operating as usual - emails arriving in my in box as they are > posted. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > > > Sorry to bother you with this. I'm subscribed to a number > of the > > groups on Yahoo, receiving messages in my email in-box. Friend Howard, Gosh, you follow too many Internet groups! Dump the rest, DSG is the best!! ;-)) Metta, James 40128 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:16am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 82- Volition/cetanaa (l) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Akusala citta arises because of conditions which are entirely different from the conditions for the kusala citta which made the resolution to observe sila.We all have accumulated tendencies to kusala and to akusala and it depends on conditions whether we perform kusala kamma or akusala kamma. When there is no development of mahå-satipaììhåna it is very difficult to observe the precepts. The Visuddhimagga mentions in the section on síla (Chapter I, 53-60) the “guarding of the sense-doors”, because this can be considered as an aspect of síla. When there is mindfulness of, for example, visible object and visible object is not taken for a ‘thing’ or a person but is known as only a kind of rúpa appearing through the eyes, the eye-door is guarded. At that moment there is no attachment to visible object, no aversion towards it, no ignorance about it. Later on we may become absorbed in what we see and we may cling to it, but at the moment of mindfulness the doorways are guarded and there is restraint of the senses. Thus, mindfulness of nåma and rúpa, which is a form of bhåvanå (mental development), can also be considered as síla. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40129 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 0:14am Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities /Howard... Hello Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita - > ...snip... > ================================= > I don't mean to back off from *looking* closely. I think it is > important to look as closely and carefully as one can. Azita: I am not sure what you mean by 'looking'. For me, I find it very helpful to think about/contemplate what I've heard/read. When I do so, what seemed > solid and self-existent disappears as such. When I look more and more closely with > reasoning, however, with the intention of making an ultimate analysis, there > is a different sort of falling apart. Azita: again, not sure what you mean by ultimate analysis, and of what. The reasoning itself falls apart, and > dissolves into convoluted contradictions. I very much believe in the mind's > capacity to directly see what is what, exactly as it is. That capacity, that > perfect congnitive functioning is what I understand by 'wisdom'. And I think that > one way to get to it is to reach the limit of reasoning - to reach the point > that the reasoning falls apart, with no explanation whatsoever working. > Azita: I believe wisdom does have the capacity to see directly what is what, but I also believe that that is highly developed wisdom, certainly not any degree of wisdom that I can claim. It's my understanding that not by reasoning can this wisdom be made to develop, as I see reasoning as just another type of thinking. To begin with, I think this wisdom is very weak and there is a lot of doubt about whether or not there is actually any understanding at all, of any reality that appears in the present moment. I think wisdom grows very,very slowly and most of the time, for me anyway, there is no wisdom at all, no clear understanding of any reality. But there can be, at those times, an acceptance of just how little knowledge there is. Not by trying can wisdom be made to grow ..... > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. There! Not one "we"! ;-) Azita: I'm smiling Howard, Not one 'we' at all, and it became a more personel entry bec. of no 'we' ...well, for me anyway. :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 40130 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Hi James (& TG), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Using the suttas as a guide, I have argued that being a sotapanna is > not nearly as difficult as Sarah claims it is. I think that there > are quite a few sotapannas on this list! Maybe Sarah wants to be on > the side of caution to guard against conceit, I'm not sure. Is that > a British thing? ;-)) (just kidding). … S: Maybe she’s just a party-pooper. Imagine, without these party-poopers, probably all Buddhists would be sotapannas today without awkward questions being asked;-). I do have other posts I’d intended to reply to today(like one of yours, TG's other point and KenO's for a start), but I need to call family members and so on, so they may have to be after the weekend. Wishing everyone an enjoyable and wise holiday season meanwhile. Metta, Sarah p.s thx for the pic with the wee kitten - why not put it in the DSG album? ===== 40131 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread (199) Dear Dhamma Friends, More classifications on citta are coming. H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta 1. 46 ruparammanika cittas 2. 46 saddarammanika cittas 3. 46 gandharammanika cittas 4. 46 rasarammanika cittas 5. 46 photthabbarammanika cittas 6. 67 dhammarammanika cittas Unlike dvara classifications, here in arammana classification, 19 cittas of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti do not deserve a separate categories. In dvara classification, 19 bhavanga cittas do not arise at any of dvara and they are called advarika cittas or dvar-vimutta cittas. But arammanawise they do have arammanas or objects. These matters will be discussed when vithi vara discussions come. J. classic-object classification on citta 1. rupekekaarammanika cittas ( 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas ) 2. saddekekaarammanika cittas( 2 sotavinnana cittas ) 3. gandhekekaarammanika cittas(2 ghanavinnana cittas ) 4. rasekekaarammanika cittas ( 2 jivhavinnana cittas ) 5. photthabbekekaarammanika cittas(2kayavinnana cittas) 6. rupaadi-pancarammanika cittas ( 1 pancadvaravajjana and 2 sampatic) 7. kamavacaraarammanika cittas ( above + 3 santi + 8 mahavi + 1 hasi) ( 2+2+2+2+2+1+2+3+8+1= 25 kamavacara-arammanika cittas ) 8. lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas (12 akusala cittas + 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala and 4 mahakiriya) 9. arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala cittas/+ 5th rupa abhinnana) 10.sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya cittas, 1 votthapana citta/+5th rupa kiriya abhinnana 11. mahaggataarammanika cittas ( 3 2nd arupa jhana cittas and 3 4th arupa jhana cittas ) 12. pannattaarammanika cittas (3 1st arupajhana cittas, 3 3rd arupajhana cittas, 15 rupavacaras) 13.nibbaanaarammanika cittas ( 8 lokuttara cittas ) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40132 From: Philip Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,126 Hi Larry, and all > 126. But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as > the characteristic of being felt, it is nevertheless threefold as to > kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. This threefold classification doesn't correlate to the threefold classification of pleasant, unpleasant and neither pleasant nor unpleasant, right? No, of course not - pleasant feeling is just as likely to be akusala as unpleasant feeling, and maybe *more* likely, because it is easier to understand/know/recognize the arising of unpleasant feeling than it is to recognize pleasant feeling - the manifestation of the latter seems much more subtle and insiduous most of the time. It would be profitable if there is knowing of the feeling as impermanent etc. To repeat the sutta passage I quoted in the other thread : "When one experiences pleasure, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to lust is present. When one experiences pain, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is present." (SN XXXVI.3) Since we are usually incapable of understanding feeling in the moment that it arises, these feeling-related cittas would almost invariably be unprofitable. Is my understanding correct? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 40133 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: >Htoo: "5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object > 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object > 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object" > > Hi Htoo, > > Would you say a little more on pathavi and vayo? Also, what about other > kinds of bodily sensation such as a back ache or tooth ache or a cut > finger or a burn or upset stomach etc.? It seems difficult sometimes to > distinguish between bodily sensation and bodily feeling (vedana). > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, You are right. It is not just sometimes. Because sensation or here kaya-vinnana is a citta and its associated vedana or feeling is a cetasika. According to sampayutta paccaya, it is not possible to separate out each other. Physical sensationwise there are many many sensations that the body carries and sometimes it is hard to fit into three categories of 'pathavi' 'tejo' and 'vayo'. In body there are many sense receptors. This is topic about body- sense-receptors. Special-sense-receptors are retina, organ or Corti, olfactory cells, and taste buds. Body-sense-receptors are for general senses not for special senses. Eyes also carry general sense. Ears also bear general sense. Nose also knows general sense. Tougue also knows touch sense. But the sense receptors that know general senses in the eyes are not concerned with special senses. Among general senses, there are many different senses and they are each carried by different pathways. Some are carried to the brain via anterior pathway in the spinal cord. Some fibres are brought to the brain through lateral pathways of the spinal cord. There are also some fibres that travel up by the way of posterior path in the spinal cord. Actually these are scientific realities. There are sense of fine touch like a single fibre of bird fur, sense of crude touch like elephant foot, sense of pressure, sense of cold, sense of warmth, sense of pain, sense of differentiation, sense of thrilling, sense of vibration, and many others. But all these physical matters are just the work stations for mind faculties. Once namarupapariccheda nana arises rupa and nama will be clearly understood. When body senses are known, these senses will be just seen as they are in terms of ultimate realities. Not in terms of scientific classifications of senses. Back-ache, tooth-ache, cut-finger, burn, scold, upset stomach? Scientific basis for back-ache will be complicated with terminology. I think there is no back-ache in dhamma. If we talk on that back-ache then I think I might be just a mixture of 'tejo-photthabba' and 'vayo- photthabba'. A mixture means sometimes tejo and sometimes vayo or kayavinnana cittas are arising alternatively as receiving tejo- phothabba and vayo-photthabba. When vayo predominates back-ache would seem to be rovering horizontally or vertically along the backbones or down to bottom. When tejo predominates back-ache would like pain. When that pain eases off, there may notice some components of heat in the back and then it passes away. Tooth-ache is more in the side of tejo-photthabba. But sometimes it goes up to the head and may micmic head-ache. Sometimes it goes down to the neckspine and may micmic spondylosis. Cut-finger is highly intense tejo-photthabba, I think. Burn is apparent that mostly it is tejo-photthabba but vayo may also invlove. Scold is almost the same with burn but more vayo involves than in case of burn. Upset stomuch is also a mixture. Sometimes it may be perceived as vayo-photthabba and sometimes as tejo-photthabba. In science even pain is subclassified into many types. Everyone knows pain sense. Some may notice its early phase of arising and its disappearance phase. Just before disappearing that pain is like some warm heat. I think we should be able to separate out nama and rupa at least at theoretical level. I notice here in Yahoo groups that there are many experts in dhamma. They each have their good and excellent proficiency in dhamma at least at some areas. But sometimes some seem not able to differentiate between nama dhamma and rupa dhamma even in theoretical knowledge. May this message help you and others. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Seasonal greeting_ 'Merry Christmas'. 40134 From: upasaka_howard Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Friend Howard, > > Gosh, you follow too many Internet groups! Dump the rest, DSG is > the best!! ;-)) -------------------------- Howard: I know! ;-) -------------------------- > > Metta, James ========================= With metta, Howard 40135 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:06am Subject: Seasons greetings Hello all, I wish you all much patience, courage and good cheer, not just at this time of year :-) but all thro the year as well. May you all be well and happy, Azita. 40136 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:22am Subject: Re: What is time ? Hallo RobertK You are right, your description is far more accurate. But still time and space are nearly the same according Einstein Theory of relativity. So when when the new citta can arise thousands of kilimeters away, it also can arise any period of time away. And the question remains: what is time? Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Joop, > The death consciousness doesn't travel anywhere. It arises and > passes away. But it is a condition for a new citta, patisandhi > citta, that arises immediately uopn the falling away of cuti > citta. > As you say it could be far away, even much more than thousand of > kilometers. > robertk 40137 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: Seasons greetings Happy Holidays to Everyone! Let me follow Azita's lead to send my best wishes and goodwill to all members of DSG. And may each day in the coming year be a good day, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello all, > > I wish you all much patience, courage and good cheer, not just > at this time of year :-) but all thro the year as well. > > May you all be well and happy, > Azita. 40138 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:43am Subject: Re: the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version Friend Frank, Thank you so much for the link to this e-book! It is truly EXCELLENT!! Regardless of one's aspirations for jhana, I believe that it is a book every serious Buddhist should read. The information in the book could condition the attainment of jhanas in this lifetime or future lifetimes. It is a really wonderful book with practical advice and instruction. I am going to read it twice and probably three times!! Thanks again! Metta, James Ps. I often wonder what has become of Jeffrey Brooks. Last I heard he wanted to ordain at my temple in Arizona, Wat Promkunaram (though I don't think they take initiates and it isn't the sort of temple for serious contemplative bhikkhus). Where in the world is Jeffrey? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Frank wrote: > (delurking for a few nanoseconds) > > I was overjoyed when I found out Jeff (from > jhanas@yahoogroups) transcribed the booklet into a > free pdf file. It still boggles my mind that very > mediocre and horrible books on Buddhism are > international bestsellers, while many of the truly > excellent books and articles on Buddhism authored by > eminent cultivators are available for free, under > promoted, and sadly, under-read. > > you can get the free ebook here: > > http://www.4nobletruths.com/exceptional_ebooks/jhanas_brahm.htm > (I recently purchased this domain name and webhosting > service with high bandwidth and storage) > > > Or on Jeff's website (search for brahmavamso + "the > jhanas" in the message archive at jhanas@yahoogroups) > > Greetings to old friends on the list, Happy Holidays, > much metta, and may you experience abundant fruits > from your meditative practice. > > (re-lurking and concentrating my efforts on my right > concentration and right effort...) > ? > > > ===== > frank@4... 40139 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:03am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (199) Dear Dhamma Friends, This thread number (199) is a bit heavy and most words have not been explained. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, More classifications on citta are coming. H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These 2 classifications have been discussed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. 46 ruparammanika cittas 2. 46 saddarammanika cittas 3. 46 gandharammanika cittas 4. 46 rasarammanika cittas 5. 46 photthabbarammanika cittas 6. 67 dhammarammanika cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ruparammanika is made up of rupa and arammanika. Rupa here means 'rupa-arammana' or 'vanna' which is colours, forms, shapes. Arammanika means 'arising at arammana' or 'taking arammana' 'holding arammana'. So ruparammanika means 'taking visual object'. Ruparammanika cittas are cittas that take the visual objects. So do other arammanika cittas the same as in case of ruparammanika cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Unlike dvara classifications, here in arammana classification, 19 cittas of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti do not deserve a separate categories. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because 19 cittas are dvara-vimutta cittas. But they are not arammana- vimutta cittas. No citta can be free of arammana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In dvara classification, 19 bhavanga cittas do not arise at any of dvara and they are called advarika cittas or dvar-vimutta cittas. But arammanawise they do have arammanas or objects. These matters will be discussed when vithi vara discussions come. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Before vithi vara discussion come here is a hint of the arammanas of these 19 cittas. This life is started with patisandhi citta. We people who are reading these scripts were born with one of 8 mahavipaka cittas. And at patisandhi, the first citta is called patisandhi citta. Q:Why did that citta have to arise? A:Because there is kamma. Q:What kamma? A:The kamma that can give rise to patisandhi vipaka citta. Q:Where is that kamma? A:It is time rather than place. Just before death, there is the last vithi vara. At the end of vithi vara, there follow cuti citta directly. Or sometimes 1 bhavanga citta arises and then cuti citta arises. Both bhavanga citta and cuti citta are abyakata dhamma or dhamma that cannot give rise to further kamma. So this life patisandhi and those 2 cittas of bhavanga and cuti cittas are totally not related. This unrelation is also time, place, bhumi, jati, sankhara, sampayutta dhamma, and arammana dhamma. That is why life can be anything after death. What is related is the last vithi vara. Again in that last vithi vara only javana cittas can produce patisandhi vipaka cittas. Vipaka means resultant. That is javanas of this life result in patisandhi vipaka of next life. So when we are not in vithi vara, we are in bhavanga cittas and these bhavanga cittas are taking the arammana of last immediate past life's last javana cittas' arammana. So they do have arammana and there is no citta that does not have any arammana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- J. classic-object classification on citta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is according to kind of arammana or jati-arammana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. rupekekaarammanika cittas ( 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupekekaarammanika = rupa + ekeka + arammana + ika Rupa here means 'visual object'. Eka means 'one' and ekeka means 'bearing one'. Arammana means 'object' to be known. Ika means 'at'. Rupekekaarammanaika means 'taking only one object which is rupa or form/shape' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. saddekekaarammanika cittas( 2 sotavinnana cittas ) 3. gandhekekaarammanika cittas(2 ghanavinnana cittas ) 4. rasekekaarammanika cittas ( 2 jivhavinnana cittas ) 5. photthabbekekaarammanika cittas(2kayavinnana cittas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Other do the same as in case of rupekekaarammanika cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. rupaadi-pancarammanika cittas ( 1 pancadvaravajjana and 2 sampatic) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupa here is 'vanna'. Adica means 'etc'. Rupaadica means 'rupa and others' that is rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba. So these 3 cittas which are mano-dhatu take one of 5 arammanas of rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and photthabba. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. kamavacaraarammanika cittas ( above + 3 santi + 8 mahavi + 1 hasi) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Kamavacara means 'related to kamavacara dhamma or related to 5 physical senses and their implications'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ( 2+2+2+2+2+1+2+3+8+1= 25 kamavacara-arammanika cittas ) 8. lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas (12 akusala cittas + 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala and 4 mahakiriya) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Lokuttaravajjita means 'excluding lokuttara arammana here that is nibbana'. Sabba means 'all'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala cittas/+ 5th rupa abhinnana) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Vajjita means 'excluding'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 10.sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya cittas, 1 votthapana citta/+5th rupa kiriya abhinnana ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sabbathapi means 'in all possible ways'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 11. mahaggataarammanika cittas ( 3 2nd arupa jhana cittas and 3 4th arupa jhana cittas ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahaggata means 'great'. Mahaggata here means 'jhana'. Again jhana here are 3 cittas of vinnanancayatana arupavacara cittas. They are kusala citta, vipaka citta, and kiriya citta that are 2nd arupa jhana citta called vinnanancayatana arupa jhana citta. These cittas take the object 1st arupa jhana citta which is a citta which again is paramattha dhamma and realities. These cittas are 1st arupa jhana cittas and they are mahaggata arammana for 2nd arupa jhana cittas. So all 2nd arupa jhana cittas whether they are kusala, vipaka, or kiriya they take the mahaggata object called 1st arupa jhana citta which is akasanancayatana citta. 3 cittas of 4th arupa jhana cittas(nevasanna-nasannayatana cittas) take mahaggata object which is 3rd arupa jhana cittas. Citta is a reality. Here that citta is jhana citta and they are called mahaggata citta and so the object is called mahagatta arammana. So all 4th arupa jhana cittas or nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana cittas take the mahaggata object which is 3rd arupa jhana cittas or akincinnayatana cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12. pannattaarammanika cittas (3 1st arupajhana cittas, 3 3rd arupajhana cittas, 15 rupavacaras) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Aprt from 2nd arupa jhana and 4th arupa jhana, other arupa jhana take pannatti as their object. All rupavacara jhana cittas take panatti as their object. If a citta is rupavacara jhana citta, the object is always always pannatti and not paramattha dhamma. This is the place why Bodhisatta could not have progress at nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana and then he quit from it and serached further dhamma. This is lineage of citta. If a citta is jhana citta then it takes pannatti only. Not other arammana. But lokuttara cittas all take nibbana as their object. These include lokuttara jhana cittas, which are not rupavacara jhana cittas but they are lokuttara cittas. Their lineage is lokuttara. When arammanas are not well penetrated there were and are and will be argumentation and disputes on whether rupa jhanas are needed or not for lokuttara dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 13.nibbaanaarammanika cittas ( 8 lokuttara cittas ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This means 'nibbana as the object for citta'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing *** Seasonal greeting to all 'Merry Christmas and happy new year.' 40140 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:40am Subject: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Friend Sarah, Sarah: Maybe she's just a party-pooper. Imagine, without these party- poopers, probably all Buddhists would be sotapannas today without awkward questions being asked;-). James: Hehehe…well, I don't think that would be very likely since most "Buddhists" today don't know the first thing about Buddhism, and in Asia especially they believe in rites and rituals. However, what would be so bad about that, anyway? Do you view Buddhism as some sort of exclusive membership club and that only those who pour over the commentaries, picking out an isolated statement here and a snippet there, know what it takes to gain entrance? Again, here is what the suttas state in regards to the fruits of sotapanna. I don't believe that anything more is correct: "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks." "And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters." "He attends appropriately, This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukkha... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: self-identity view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices." "Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower. Which five? He/she has conviction; is virtuous; is not eager for protective charms & ceremonies; trusts kamma, not protective charms & ceremonies; does not search for recipients of his/her offerings outside (of the Sangha), and gives offerings here first." Sarah: p.s thx for the pic with the wee kitten - why not put it in the DSG album? James: Sure, no problem. Sure, I'll put it in the album. Metta, James 40141 From: Larry Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,126 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > , It would be profitable if there is knowing of the feeling as > impermanent etc. To repeat the sutta passage I quoted in the other > thread : "When one experiences pleasure, if one does not understand > feeling, the tendency to lust is present. When one experiences pain, > if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is > present." (SN XXXVI.3) > > Since we are usually incapable of understanding feeling in the > moment that it arises, these feeling-related cittas would almost > invariably be unprofitable. Is my understanding correct? Thanks in > advance. > > Metta, > Phil Hi Phil, Nina or Htoo can better answer your question but I would say no. The sutta quote refers to the eradication of latent tendencies (anusaya) in path consciousness. The feeling that arises with a wholesome (kusala) consciousness is kusala even though that consciousness doesn't fully understand the nature of realities. If generosity arises the feeling that accompanies that generosity is kusala regardless of your understanding. For example, generosity could arise based on conceit. The consciousness that conceives of conceit is akusala, wrong view, and the feeling that accompanies that view is akusala. But the feeling that accompanies generosity itself is kusala. Larry 40142 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (200) Dear Dhamma Friends, H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta J. classic-object classification on citta 1. rupekekaarammanika cittas 2. saddekekaarammanika cittas 3. gandhekekaarammanika cittas 4. rasekekaarammanika cittas 5. photthabbekekaarammanika cittas 6. rupaadi-pancarammanika cittas 7. kamavacaraarammanika cittas 8. lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas 9. arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas 10.sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas 11. mahaggataarammanika cittas 12. pannattaarammanika cittas 13.nibbaanaarammanika cittas So in classic-object classification there are 1. 25 kamavacaraarammanika cittas (10 dvipancavinnanas, 3 mano-dhatu, 11 tadarammanas, 1 hasituppada) 2. 6 mahaggataarammanika cittas (3 vinnanancayata cittas and 3 nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana cittas) 3. 21 pannattaarammanika cittas ( 15 rupavacara cittas, 3 akasanancayatas, 3 akincinnayatanas) 4. 8 nibbaanaarammanika cittas ( 4 maggas and 4 phalas) 5. 20 lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas (12 akusalas, 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala and 4 nana vi-kiriya) 6. 4(5) arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala citta/ 1 5th rupa abhinnana ) 7. 5(6) sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya, 1 manodvaravajjana/ 1 5th rupa kiria abhinnana) --------- 89 cittas in total May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40143 From: Larry Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: What is time ? Hi Joop, In abhidhamma time is the water element, I think. No idea at all what that means. It might mean time is gravity, the "cohesion of material phenomena". I come to this conclusion by reasoning since movement is the arising of similar rupa in a slightly different place, we can account for this continuity by the water element. And movement is time. Alternately, we could say time is impermanence which, ultimately, is the arising and ceasing of one mind moment, but I think we need some kind of continuity for there to be time, hence water element. Larry 40144 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:58am Subject: Problem Possibly Solved/Tep Hi, Tep, and all - In a message dated 12/24/04 12:57:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Hi, Howard - > > There was a mail in my Inbox at 5:47 A.M. CT today (from Bhikkhu > Smahita). Right noe my local time is 11:58 A.M. > > > Regards, > > > Tep ====================== I received this post of yours, along with some other posts DSG and other Yahoo lists, as emails!! A day ago, I sent a form to Yahoo groups telling them of my problem, but I got no feedback. About an hour ago I sent them a second form repeating the problem, telling them that AOL says the problem doesn't lie with them, and mentioning another DSG member who is having the very same problem. It seems now that they have responded by doing something positive!! (Yay! Let's hear it for Yahoo!) If I run into further troubles, I'll handle it the same way, but I'll keep the matter off-list. (It doesn't really belong here. My apologies for that.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40145 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:32am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James -----Original Message----- From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 11:29 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, ... If I remember correctly, your argument was that breathing isn't an ultimate reality and therefore can't be directly experienced; therefore the Mindfulness of Breathing Sutta isn't really about mindfulness of breathing. Sound familiar? Jon: Only partly ;-)). As to ultimate reality, yes, I have said that there is no dhamma called 'breathing', and that what we take for breath appears to consciousness as different rupas through the body-door (hardness or softness, heat or cold, motion or pressure). As to the Mindfulness of Breathing Sutta, that is definitely about mindfulness of breathing, and I don't think I've ever suggested otherwise. What I have said, however, is that in my view it is not a 'how to' for the beginner. James: I wonder if anyone ever said to the Buddha, "Hey, what you're teaching is easier said than done!"? ;-) Jon: I see what you're getting at, but as I see it the passages we are talking about were spoken to monks who were already skilled in mindfulness of breathing, and were directed at showing those monks how that mindfulness of breathing could be further developed in a particular way (I thinki you will find words to this effect in the Sutta itself). James: I stress the development of jhana because it is a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path: jhana is Right Concentration. Additionally, practicing Jhana doesn't preclude practing dana, sila, samatha (do you mean mundane samatha, since jhana is samatha?) and vipassana also. It doesn't have to be either or. Jon: On my reading of the texts, it would be a mistake to equate Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path with mundane jhana. For one thing, the path factors do not arise as individual dhammas, but only in combination and with right awareness as their leader. The development of the path factor of Right Concentration occurs at any moment of the development of insight. As I see it. Jon 40146 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/24/04 2:26:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I think it's a Yahoo problem. I just posted two replies from my own mail > program and neither showed up at Yahoo. However, you probably won't get > this one either so I'm not sure why I'm writing it. > > Larry > ======================= Thanks, Larry. I got it - as you can see. ;-) The emails seem to be coming in now. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Philip, op 24-12-2004 00:50 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: .if there is nothing to rejoice at...this in itself is > an end >> to the latent tendency of sense desire... aversion... etc. Those > latent >> tendencies condition the attachment with feeling. etc. > > Phil: Not only "rejoice at", right? I mean, we are even more likely > to have aversion to sense objects - N: This aversion is condiitoned by attachment, so when that is eradicated there is no condition for aversion either. The first javanacittas in each life are cittas rooted in attachment. Ph: This is why the> question "is there seeing now?" is so important. Understanding that > it is a much more difficult question than it appears to be helps us > get at understanding this vital point at which proliferation occurs. > We grasp at features, grasp at "signs" N: Well expressed. Is there seeing now is a most helpful reminder. But when we explain it to others, we need many words. Lodewijk warns me to take care as to this. He says, people will fall over it. Ph: we begin to sense the black curtain of ignorance K Sujin talks about - we can get > discouraged. N: We can be glad to see it at least, not discouraged. No, No!!! > > Phil: I am finding so many helpful reminders about wise attention in > suttas. But it seems to me that the understanding can arise more and more quickly. We > proliferate all the time, but we come to put out the fire faster. > The sutta on yoniso manasikaara SN IX.11 tells us that we > are "being chewed" by our thoughts. N: My PTS has: inebriate, or intoxicated. majjati. (snipped) > Phil: I notice quite often in many suttas, it seems that the > Buddha mentions impermanence twice, and doesn't mention not-self. > Many times. For example, in the sutta about oneself as an island, (SN > XXII,43) there is "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to > change." N: It depends on the aspect that is shown. See SN IV, (Salayatanavagga), it is repeated: what is impermanent is not self, what is dukkha is not self. All three are together. Ph: in terms of daily insight, intellectual insight, I wonder if it isn't easier to understand impermanence N: It depends on the individual. That is why there are three ways of liberation, I do not give details now. And also classifications of liberated individuals, such as body witness, etc. Ph: What does the Thai commentary say about > this "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to change" that > appears so often. Why doesn't it mention not-self? N: I have no Co. of this sutta. Nina. 40148 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation, doubt, part 1. Dear Tep and Larry, op 22-12-2004 23:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: .. I think I should always try to make my messages as concise > as possible and stay away from asking any unnecessary question. N: Don't worry, your style is clear and concise. Questions are not superfluous. They make one think of aspects not noticed before. T quotes: when whatever appears is seen as only a conditioned nama or > rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is welcome or not. > It is conditioned already... T: Most worldlings (including me) are not accustomed to discerning all > rupa and nama as 'conditioned' and 'not-self'. .. Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both > mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is > sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it is only a > sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many billion times > more I have to make mental noting like this before it finally sticks. Do > you have any helpful 'tips' ? N: It is the same for all of us. To let go without clinging is later in the development of understanding. Not only sound but whatever appears can gradually be understood as an impersonal element. You ask for some tips. Take Larry's examples: These are only tangible object: it may burn like fire, than it is the element of heat. What aches may be a pressure of some hardness, then it is the element of earth or the element of wind or motion. We find our pains important, but there are only elements impinging on elements. This makes them less important. Thus, Htoo gives us a good reminder when giving this concise classification: <5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object> These sober words can have a sobering effect upon us. Tangible object, all that can be experienced through touch is nothing else but these three elements. We mix nama and rupa and call them emotions, but feeling is pure nama, different form rupa. Feeling feels, it experiences an object. This is the first step to have less clinging to my pain, my feeling. First there has to be detachment from the idea of self. Finally there can be detachment from all objects. > T: The anumana sutta talks about the 'evil things' that should be > dispelled (e.g. having evil desires and submerged in them; being > crafty and fraudulent; overcome by anger, cursing and angry with a > grudge; praising oneself and disparaging others, > etc.). But my online copy probably excludes the akusala kamma > vipaka of criticizing others. Could you please fill in the blank for me? N: It is not said expressively that critizing others is akusala kamma. But this sutta points out the danger of akusala. One can conclude from this sutta that one should know one's own faults instead of disparaging others. Is one difficult to speak to or easy to speak to? When reading this sutta one becomes silent! We learn that it is easy to see others' faults, but what about oneself? It is an exhortation to develop what is skilled. Actually, satipatthana is implied in this sutta. See Dhammapada, vs. 252: > T: I have skeptical doubt when I read some suttas that seem to > contradict each other. N: There are many subjects we can have doubt about. Partly they can be cured by asking questions about knotty points, that is mentioned in the Co. as one of the conditions for right understanding. The teachings are in conformity with each other, but we should remember that different aspects are treated under different headings. If we do not see this we may think that there are contradictions. This forum is suitable for asking knotty questions. There are also points that are beyond our understanding, like all the details about kamma and result. That is the Buddha's domain. Some subjects we should not pursue endlessly, that will lead to madness, as the Expositor says. Or some subjects like the retention consciousness is beyond my understanding at the moment, but I put it aside and maybe later on it may become clearer. We have to accept that we cannot comprehend all the teachings. But intellectually we can understand enough to help us on the Way. We should pay attention especially to what is helpful for the development of understanding. T:I also have skeptical doubt about some steps of the anapanasati meditation, e.g. as described in MN 118 and AN X.60. N: It is intricate. This subject can be used in samatha and in vipassana. The Visuddhimagga explains how and when. When a text is not clear it is our own fault, the texts are not at fault. This is a separate subject, it cannot be dealt with in afew sentences. T: I have doubt about my Sila, Samadhi and Panna too. I think some of my doubts are caused by "inappropriate attention" to the dhamma in question. N: Right, doubt is caused by ayoniso manasikara, and it can be cured by right attention. Sila, Samadhi and Panna, they are closely connected and intertwined, they can be viewed under many aspects. Sila is dealt with in the Visuddhimagga from the lower levels even unto the highest, as abandoning by lokuttara citta (Vis. I, 140). I am always impressed by the Intro in the Vis. where a sutta is quoted: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] And then there was hearing! Hi, Phil Philip wrote: > > > Hello all > > > Happy news to report. Thanks to the improved condition of our >computer, I could access the audio files for the first time. > > Good news. Also, the improved condition of your computer has made a big difference to how your posts are displayed on the screen or when printed out, meaning that it's now a lot easier to read them ;-)) So well done Naomi! Jon 40150 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:40pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, Jon: What I have said, however, is that in my view it is not a 'how to' for the beginner. James: Okay, sorry to have misquoted you then. But now I have another question for you: In Buddhism, who is a beginner, who is intermediate, and who is advanced? (Just wondering what these things mean to you). Jon: On my reading of the texts, it would be a mistake to equate Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path with mundane jhana. James: Jon, that is what the Buddha said is Right Concentration! How could it be a mistake to equate Right Concentration with Jhana when the Buddha taught that? I am not sure what texts you are reading (maybe you could quote them?) but they must not be the right ones. Here is what the Buddha said: "An Analysis of the Path" "AND WHAT IS RIGHT CONCENTRATION? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. THIS IS CALLED RIGHT CONCENTRATION." (caps mine) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html Right concentration is jhana, plain and simple, and nothing is left open for interpretation. It cannot get any more obvious. Black and White…plain as the nose on your face…etc., etc., ;-)) Jon: For one thing, the path factors do not arise as individual dhammas, but only in combination and with right awareness as their leader. The development of the path factor of Right Concentration occurs at any moment of the development of insight. James: I do not believe in "path factors" which all arise at the same moment. This is a theory invented by Buddhaghosa, by taking one line of one sutta out of context, and it doesn't match the suttas. Read the above link for a proper understanding of the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James 40151 From: Philip Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,126 HI Larry Thanks for your feedback. > sutta quote refers to the eradication of latent tendencies (anusaya) > in path consciousness. I had read the sutta and assigned a much more mundane meaning to it. That is what I always tend to do - I'm sure most beginners do- and it can lead to misunderstanding. Could I ask you how you know/knew that this sutta refers to something more sublime? >The feeling that arises with a wholesome > (kusala) consciousness is kusala even though that consciousness > doesn't fully understand the nature of realities. If generosity > arises the feeling that accompanies that generosity is kusala > regardless of your understanding. For example, generosity could arise > based on conceit. The consciousness that conceives of conceit is > akusala, wrong view, and the feeling that accompanies that view is > akusala. But the feeling that accompanies generosity itself is > kusala. OK. I see. When I talk about understanding the nature of the realities, or not, it's a different citta. They are rising and falling so quickly. So in the example you've given - a kusala citta accompanied by generosity with kusala feeling >>>> an akusala citta with conceit about the generosity, and this would be with akusala feeling>>>>> And then perhaps a kusala citta with right understanding of the conceit, with right understanding of the impermanence etc of all the feeling, and that would be accompanied by kusala feeling? Of course that's a very rough picture of what really goes on. As you can see, I'm still very thick on citta processes, but does the above sound close to what really goes on? Thanks again. Metta, Phil 40152 From: Philip Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Nina, and all > Ph: we begin to sense the black curtain of ignorance K Sujin talks about - > we can get > > discouraged. > N: We can be glad to see it at least, not discouraged. No, No!!! Ph: Maybe discouraged is not the right word, but I wouldn't say glad either. Sobered? Our ambitions our sobered because we come to see just how deeply attached we are, and we come to sense how long it will take. Yesterday I thought of a simile of a magnet and metal filings. Through thinking about khandas and the characteristics, I can intellectually impose a moment of detachment, a moment in which the metal filings are lifted by force from the surface of the magnet and there is an illusion of detachment. But then when the force of thinking is removed, it will be revealed (though I will usually be unaware of it) just how attached the metal filings still are! Perhaps in moments of understanding the force of the attachment is infinitesmally (sp?!?) weakened. But I don't think there are moments in which the force of attachment is turned right off, and I don't think there will be a moment in which that will happen. It will happen more gradually. The magnet will lose it's power to cause clinging gradually as moment after moment after moment of right understanding arise. This is just conceptualizing about a process which I haven't really begun to understand. Yes, I've come to sense how general, how deep, how pervasive clinging is. So in that sense, yes, seeing the truth of matters is something to be glad for, you're right. Encouraged that I am beginning to see the truth. No more denials. Perhaps this has something to do with samvega. Having come to see how pervasive clinging is, I might be more heedful of thinking, speaking and acting in a way that conditions deepening the clinging. The turban of fire. > N: It depe~ds on the aspect that is shown. See SN IV, (Salayatanavagga), it > is repeated: what is impermanent is not self, what is dukkha is not self. > All three are together. Ph: I see. Thanks. BTW, when the Buddha (or the translator that is!) says "subject to change" is there a subtle difference there between "impermanent?" It seems to get more at the conditioned nature of things. I sometimes wonder why "conditioned" isn't a fourth characteristic along with impermanent, dukkha and not-self. > N: It depends on the individual. That is why there are three ways of > liberation, I do not give details now. And also classifications of liberated > individuals, such as body witness, etc. When you have a moment, could you teach me (very briefly!) about the three ways of liberation (is that depending on which of the three characteristics arises?) and body witness etc? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 40153 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:28pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James Thanks for these comments, and especially for quoting the passage on right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path. I'd like to check the sutta itself, but in the meantime I have a question about the passage. buddhatrue wrote: >James: Jon, that is what the Buddha said is Right Concentration! How >could it be a mistake to equate Right Concentration with Jhana when >the Buddha taught that? I am not sure what texts you are reading >(maybe you could quote them?) but they must not be the right ones. >Here is what the Buddha said: > >"An Analysis of the Path" > >"AND WHAT IS RIGHT CONCENTRATION? There is the case where a monk -- >quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) >qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure >born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. >With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & >remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, >unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- >internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in >equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of >pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the >Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable >abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the >earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains >in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither >pleasure nor pain. THIS IS CALLED RIGHT CONCENTRATION." (caps mine) >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > Is it your understanding of this passage that the first jhana is sufficient, and if not then why is it mentioned here? Put another way, why are all 4 jhanas mentioned rather than just the level that is sufficient? It's Christmas morning here, so Merry Christmas all. Jon 40154 From: Larry Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Htoo, Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on bodily pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an object does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it would seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. Larry 40155 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is time ? In a message dated 12/24/2004 2:02:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: And the question remains: what is time? Joop Hi Joop I don't believe there is such a "thing" as time. Time is merely the way that "movement is measured." TG 40156 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Otherwise, it would > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. Respectfully butting in, Larry and Htoo. At my viewpoint ( not directly supported by any Sutta I could remember, you see...it´s only an opinion), since Dhamma is Mind conjoined with the Mind´s object, you can get also the own Mind as its object, as images at a mirror. You get the eye-door, ear-door, nose-door and so on, and the mind-door at the last rank, where you catch up a glimpse of the images of consciousness in your own mind, linked or not with knowledge, tainted or not by ignorance, prompted up or not by your own accumulations. Well, that´s it! Mettaya, Ícaro 40157 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi, Larry (and Htoo) - In a message dated 12/24/04 7:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Htoo, > > Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on bodily > pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an object > does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem > like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it would > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > > Larry ====================== If I may butt in: Clearly citta B cannot have citta A as arammana at the time that citta A is the current citta. Thus, citta B must occur *after* citta A has ceased. But, then, at the time of citta B, there *is* no citta A; citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it cannot be the object of citta B. And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a citta is, in fact, nonsense! So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A as object"? The only sense I can make of that is that it means that the object (or objective content) of citta B is a memory. It is a memory of citta A, which means some sort of mentally constructed/fabricated facsimile of citta A involving all or some of the aspects of that previous mindstate. So, the object is a sankharic construct, much akin to an idea. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40158 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > citta is, in fact, nonsense! Could you clarify it better ? When you read a quote by an philosopher, for example, where he states unambiguously his thoughts(I am supposing that he is writing the True of his mind... a fact, let´s face it,that´s bit rare even at present day for the more honest thinker!).I am assimilating up with my mind the significant formating notes of the other mind... a citta is being an object for an other citta, through the means of written language! Corrections are welcome, dear upasaka! What do you think about it ? Mettaya, Ícaro 40159 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/24/2004 12:39:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Khemaka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya) Hi Nina Thanks for that e-mail and the Khemaka Sutta. This is the exact Sutta I was looking for to quote for Sarah, but I couldn't remember the title or find it easily, so I found a couple of others that were suitable. TG 40160 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:26pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (200) Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread (200) is also a big issue and I think it needs to be explained. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta J. classic-object classification on citta > 1. rupekekaarammanika cittas > 2. saddekekaarammanika cittas > 3. gandhekekaarammanika cittas > 4. rasekekaarammanika cittas > 5. photthabbekekaarammanika cittas > 6. rupaadi-pancarammanika cittas > 7. kamavacaraarammanika cittas > 8. lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas > 9. arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas > 10.sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas > 11. mahaggataarammanika cittas > 12. pannattaarammanika cittas > 13.nibbaanaarammanika cittas So in classic-object classification there are 1. 25 kamavacaraarammanika cittas (10 dvipancavinnanas, 3 mano-dhatu, 11 tadarammanas, 1 hasituppada) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These 25 cittas always take 'kamavacara arammana' or 'kama object'. Kama object means 'objects of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching and thoughts on these five senses'. 10 dvi-pancavinnana cittas are 5 couples of seeing-consciousness or eye-consciousness etc. That is 5 sense-consciousness. Couple here means 'akusala and kusala' couple. So there are 10 cittas in total. They are no doubt taking 'kama object'. 3 mano-dhatus are 1 pancadvaravajjana citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas. Here pancadvaravajjana citta always preceed pancavinnana citta. So it also takes 'kama object'. 2 sampaticchana cittas always immediately follow panca-vinnana citta. So it is also no doubt that these 2 cittas also take 'kama object'. So far 13 cittas take kama object. 11 tadarammana cittas only arise in kama bhumi in kama sattas or sensuous plane's beings. These 11 tadarammana cittas always follow kama-javana cittas. So they also no doubt take kama object. 1 hasituppada citta is a kiria citta. It is also a javana citta. It is ahetuka citta. It is somanassa citta. It is smiling-citta of arahats. When arahats take nibbana as object [that is when in phala samapatti], hasituppada citta cannot arise. When in jhana cittas, hasituppada citta does not arise. So the object of hasituppada is also kama object. It is related to 5 senses and thought on 5 senses. So there are 10 dvi-pancavinnana cittas, 3 mano-dhatu, 11 tadarammana cittas( 3 santirana and 8 mahavipaka cittas), and 1 hasituppada citta altogether 25 cittas take kamavacara arammana or kama object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2.6 mahaggataarammanika cittas (3 vinnanancayata cittas and 3 nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana cittas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These 6 cittas are also mahaggata cittas. In cittas, lokuttara cittas are the highest and kamavacara cittas are the lowest. In the middle is mahaggata cittas or jhana cittas. These mahaggata cittas are also called majjhima cittas. Majjhima means 'middle'. These 6 cittas themselves are mahaggata cittas. And their objects are also mahaggata cittas. In which way? When in 5th rupa jhana citta, there still have the object related to rupa. In arupa jhana, all rupa related objects are eliminated. 5th rupa jhana cittas spread the arammana covering the whole universe. When that rupa-related arammana is dispassionated, the meditator tries to practise without that arammana. I n stead of that arammana which fills the universe, when arupa jhana citta arise, there is no arammana. But as every citta has arammana, the devoided place is taken as an arammana. That devoided place is unbounded space or unlimited space or limitless space because initial arammana is also limitless then the space also has to be limitless. That limiteless space is not the space that astronauts and space ships deal with. But it is pannatti. When there is that arammana of limitless space and citta just contains one-pointedness or ekaggata as jhana factor and upekkha as vedana that citta is called arupa jhana citta. It is akasananca- ayatana citta. My home is my ayatana. Deva realm is deva-ayatana. The realm of that citta who has just ekaggata and vedana without any rupa related object is akasanancayatana realm. That citta in that realm is akasanancayatana citta. This akasa or boundless space is quite close to the object of 5th rupa jhana. So the meditator tries to ascend up further to 2nd arupa jhana. The space is limitless. So the depending cittas also seems limitless. When this is taken as object, that newly arising citta is called 2nd arupa jhana citta. That citta looks 1st arupa jhana citta. So mahaggata citta(2nd) take mahagatta(1st) arammana. In the same way, 4th arupa jhana cittas look back to 3rd arupa jhana cittas. So 3 of 2nd arupa jhana cittas and 3 of 4th arupa jhana cittas take the object mahaggata( or mahaggata cittas as their object) So these 6 cittas are mahaggataarammanika cittas or they are cittas that are taking mahagata cittas as their object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. 21 pannattaarammanika cittas ( 15 rupavacara cittas, 3 akasanancayatas, 3 akincinnayatanas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The akasa of 1st arupa jhana citta is not the space that scientists are using. This boundless space is idea and it is pannatti. So 3 of 1st arupa jhana cittas all take pannatti as their object. Again 2nd arupa jhana cittas which are vinnanaca-ayatana cittas are quite close(near) to the object akasa(boundless space). To abolish this the existing vinnana cittas that are 2nd arupa jhana cittas or vinnanaca-ayatana cittas are regarded as nothing. They are ignored. They are voided. When it is right time, the 3rd arupa jhana citta has to arise. Its object is the idea of nothingness or nothing. Actually all these arupa jhana cittas and their objects are very subtle and very intelligence-taking matters. As that nothingness is an idea or concept or pannatti, all 3 3rd arupa jhana cittas take panatti as their object. So 6 arupa jhana cittas take pannatti as their object. All 15 rupavacara cittas take pannatti as their object. 15 rupavacara cittas are 5 rupakusala cittas( which are 5 jhana cittas of non- arahats and they are kusala cittas and they are kamma-generating cittas), 5 rupavipaka cittas(which are the resultant cittas derived from rupakusala cittas), and 5 rupakiriya cittas(which are 5 jhana cittas of arahats and they are non-kamma-generating or inoperational or functional jhana cittas). All rupa jhanas or all rupa jhana cittas take pannatti as their object without any exception. If arahats are in jhana samapatti, they all are taking pannatti as their mind's object. Pannatta does not arise and does not fall away. So those who never know anicca, dukkha, anatta obtain jhanas and stay in jhana they will not see any anicca or dukkha or anatta. Instead they all will take jhana as nicca, sukha, and atta. Because pannatti cause illusion and it also cause illusion of permanancy. That is when it does not arise and does not fall away, it seems exist persistently-permanently and forever. In actually term, pannatti is not there are paramattha dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. 8 nibbaanaarammanika cittas ( 4 maggas and 4 phalas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is no doubt. I think no extra explanations are needed here. 4 magga cittas are lokuttara kusala cittas and they all take nibbana as their object. Nibbana is cessation. As magga cittas see nibbana, their vipaka cittas called phala cittas also have to see nibbana as their object. These 8 cittas cannot take any other objects apart from nibbana. Even if they are lokuttara jhana cittas(40), their object is nibbana. There is no exception of these 40 cittas. That means all 40 cittas have to take nibbana as their object. All lokuttara jhana cittas are lokuttara dhamma and they take lokuttara object or nibbana. They CANNOT take kama object, mahaggata object, pannatta object, and jhana object. This is one of the most popular areas for debate such as 'Samma-samadhi must be jhanas etc etc'. I do not say 'Suttas are wrong'. But I think suttas readers may wrongly take with their poor penetrativity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. 20 lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas (12 akusalas, 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala and 4 nana vi-kiriya) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I used short-hand to save the space. 12 akusalas means 12 akusala cittas. They are 8 lobha mula cittas, 2 dosa mula cittas and 2 moha mula cittas. 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala means 4 mahakusala cittas without nana or without panna cetasikas. 4 nana v--kiriya here is short-hand for 4 nana vippayutta mahakiriya cittas. They are cittas of arahats. But still they all 4 do not have any nana or panna cetasika in their arising. Panna does not always arise even in arahats. These (12 + 4 + 4 = 20) cittas can take any object except lokuttara dhammas. There are 9 lokuttara dhammas. They are 4 magga cittas, 4 phala cittas and 1 nibbana dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6.4(5)arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala citta/ 1 5th rupa abhinnana ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here 5th rupa jhana abhinna or abhi-nana is 5th rupakusala abhinna citta. It is not a citta of arahats. So it does not deal with arahatta magga citta and arahatta phala citta. 4 cittas are kamavacara nana sampayutta mahakusala cittas. They are tihetuka cittas. They are just non-arahat cittas that is they are not kiriya cittas. So they cannot deal with arahatta magga and arahatta phala cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 7.5(6) sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas (4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya, 1 manodvaravajjana/ 1 5th rupa kiria abhinnana) > --------- 89 cittas in total ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 5th jhana rupakiriya citta is a citta of arahats. So it can deal with arahatta phala. 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya cittas are also cittas of arahats. So they all can deal with arahatta phala cittas. Manodvaravajjana citta deal with any kind of object wihtout any limitation. Because mano-dvaravajjana always preceeds any mano-dvara javana cittas. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. 40161 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:50pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (201) Dear Dhamma Friends, H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta J. classic-object classification on citta K. vatthu classification on citta Before this classification, first vatthu has to be explained. Vatthu is translated as 'base'. It can also be 'ground'. It is dwelling-place for cittas. No citta can arise without any vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis. That is when there are 5 khandhas, all cittas have to depend on their specific vatthu or base or ground or dwelling place. Exception is all cittas of arupa brahma do not need any vatthu as they are arupa brahma and their cittas do not need any rupa. They do arise without rupa. But in all other realms, citta always arise on vatthu. Vatthus are dwelling place, vatthus are the ground for cittas, vatthus are the bases for cittas. Dwelling place is a bit awkward. 'Base' seems there needs suprastructures above the base. I think 'ground' would be much more appropraite for the term vatthu. In film-making procedures the very base is the novel or the story. The whole finished films or movies are based on the novel or the story. The film foots on the story or the novel. The movies foot on the story or the novel. The films or movies have to ground ( have to take ground) the story or the novel as their base. Jatakavatthu, ekabhikkhuvatthu etc are the story about jataka, the story about one bhikkhu respectively. There are 6 vatthus. They all are rupa dhammas. But nama dhamma have to depend on these 6 vatthus. They are 1. cakkhuvatthu 2. sotavatthu 3. ghanavatthu 4. jivhavatthu 5. kayavatthu 6. hadayavatthu May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40162 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:53pm Subject: Re: Meditation, doubt, part 1. Dear Nina (also Larry and Htoo)- I feel fortunate to be given the opportunity to have this on-going Dhamma discussion with you. I am grateful for the clear and right-to-the- point answers you have given. I also wish to thank Larry for the 'tips' that help one "let go without clinging": > We find our pains important, but there are only > elements impinging on elements. This makes > them less important. And, thanks to Htoo for giving us "a good reminder when giving this concise classification:" > 5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object > 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object > 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object. I will have to remind myself (through a lot more real-time mental notings) that "Tangible object, all that can be experienced through touch is nothing else but these three elements". Great! And, Nina, your final words have drilled the main point through my mind, and they stick like glue too. > We mix nama and rupa and call them emotions, > but feeling is pure nama, different form rupa. > Feeling feels, it experiences an object. This is the > first step to have less clinging to my pain, my feeling. > First there has to be detachment from the idea of self. > Finally there can be detachment from all objects. About finding faults with other people, but forgetting our own faults: > We learn that it is easy to see others' faults, but what > about oneself? It is an exhortation to develop > what is skilled. Actually, satipatthana is implied in this sutta. Definitely! You have given me the right words, now I must practice. Other fine points for me to ponder over this weekend are: #1 > The teachings are in conformity with each other, > but we should remember that different aspects > are treated under different headings. > If we do not see this we may think that there are > contradictions. #2 > When a wise man, established well in Virtue > Develops Consciousness and Understanding, > Then as a bikkhu ardent and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle (S. I, 13). Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep and Larry, > op 22-12-2004 23:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > .. I think I should always try to make my messages as concise > > as possible and stay away from asking any unnecessary question. > N: Don't worry, your style is clear and concise. > Questions are not superfluous. They make one think of aspects not noticed > before. > T quotes: when whatever appears is seen as only a conditioned nama or > > rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is welcome or not. > > It is conditioned already... > > T: Most worldlings (including me) are not accustomed to discerning all > > rupa and nama as 'conditioned' and 'not-self'. .. > Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both > > mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is > > sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it is only a > > sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many billion times > > more I have to make mental noting like this before it finally sticks. Do > > you have any helpful 'tips' ? > N: It is the same for all of us. To let go without clinging is later in the > development of understanding. Not only sound but whatever appears can > gradually be understood as an impersonal element. > You ask for some tips. Take Larry's examples: kinds of bodily sensation such as a back ache or tooth ache or a cut > finger or a burn or upset stomach etc.? It seems difficult sometimes to > distinguish between bodily sensation and bodily feeling (vedana). > > These are only tangible object: it may burn like fire, than it is the > element of heat. What aches may be a pressure of some hardness, then it is > the element of earth or the element of wind or motion. We find our pains > important, but there are only elements impinging on elements. This makes > them less important. > Thus, Htoo gives us a good reminder when giving this concise classification: > <5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object > 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object > 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object> > These sober words can have a sobering effect upon us. Tangible object, all > that can be experienced through touch is nothing else but these three > elements. > We mix nama and rupa and call them emotions, but feeling is pure nama, > different form rupa. Feeling feels, it experiences an object. This is the > first step to have less clinging to my pain, my feeling. First there has to > be detachment from the idea of self. Finally there can be detachment from > all objects. > > T: The anumana sutta talks about the 'evil things' that should be > > dispelled (e.g. having evil desires and submerged in them; being > > crafty and fraudulent; overcome by anger, cursing and angry with a > > grudge; praising oneself and disparaging others, > > etc.). But my online copy probably excludes the akusala kamma > > vipaka of criticizing others. Could you please fill in the blank for me? > N: It is not said expressively that critizing others is akusala kamma. But > this sutta points out the danger of akusala. One can conclude from this > sutta that one should know one's own faults instead of disparaging others. > Is one difficult to speak to or easy to speak to? When reading this sutta > one becomes silent! We learn that it is easy to see others' faults, but what > about oneself? It is an exhortation to develop what is skilled. Actually, > satipatthana is implied in this sutta. > See Dhammapada, vs. 252: are one's own; like chaff one winnows others' faults, but one's own one > hides, as a crafty fowler covers himself.> > > T: I have skeptical doubt when I read some suttas that seem to > > contradict each other. > N: There are many subjects we can have doubt about. Partly they can be cured > by asking questions about knotty points, that is mentioned in the Co. as one > of the conditions for right understanding. The teachings are in conformity > with each other, but we should remember that different aspects are treated > under different headings. If we do not see this we may think that there are > contradictions. This forum is suitable for asking knotty questions. > There are also points that are beyond our understanding, like all the > details about kamma and result. That is the Buddha's domain. Some subjects > we should not pursue endlessly, that will lead to madness, as the Expositor > says. Or some subjects like the retention consciousness is beyond my > understanding at the moment, but I put it aside and maybe later on it may > become clearer. We have to accept that we cannot comprehend all the > teachings. But intellectually we can understand enough to help us on the > Way. We should pay attention especially to what is helpful for the > development of understanding. > T:I also have skeptical doubt about some steps of > the anapanasati meditation, e.g. as described in MN 118 and AN X.60. > N: It is intricate. This subject can be used in samatha and in vipassana. > The Visuddhimagga explains how and when. When a text is not clear it is our > own fault, the texts are not at fault. This is a separate subject, it cannot > be dealt with in afew sentences. > T: I have doubt about my Sila, Samadhi and Panna too. I think some of > my doubts are caused by "inappropriate attention" to the dhamma in > question. > N: Right, doubt is caused by ayoniso manasikara, and it can be cured by > right attention. > Sila, Samadhi and Panna, they are closely connected and intertwined, they > can be viewed under many aspects. Sila is dealt with in the Visuddhimagga > from the lower levels even unto the highest, as abandoning by lokuttara > citta (Vis. I, 140). I am always impressed by the Intro in the Vis. where a > sutta is quoted: > Develops Consciousness and Understanding, > Then as a bikkhu ardent and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle (S. I, 13). > Consciousness stands here for concentration. In a few words the connection > of the three is expressed. > > I would like to go more into the root of the hindrance of doubt, but that is > for next time. I hope others will butt in. > (to be continued) > Nina. 40163 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Icaro, Your answer to Larry is good and very practical. Thanks for your answer. Larry question is interesting. I will try to answer by replying his post. I have not thought in that way as Larry thinks. Thanks larry for your questions. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Otherwise, it would > > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) > which > > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > > Respectfully butting in, Larry and Htoo. > At my viewpoint ( not directly supported by any Sutta I could > remember, you see...it´s only an opinion), since Dhamma is Mind > conjoined with the Mind´s object, you can get also the own Mind as > its object, as images at a mirror. You get the eye-door, ear-door, > nose-door and so on, and the mind-door at the last rank, where you > catch up a glimpse of the images of consciousness in your own mind, > linked or not with knowledge, tainted or not by ignorance, prompted > up or not by your own accumulations. > Well, that´s it! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 40164 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi, Icaro - Nice to hear from you, BTW. Hope that all is well with you! In a message dated 12/24/04 8:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > >citta is, in fact, nonsense! > > > Could you clarify it better ? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. I explained my thinking as clearly as I can. --------------------------------------- > When you read a quote by an philosopher, for example, where he > states unambiguously his thoughts(I am supposing that he is writing > the True of his mind... a fact, let´s face it,that´s bit rare even > at present day for the more honest thinker!).I am assimilating up > with my mind the significant formating notes of the other mind... a > citta is being an object for an other citta, through the means of > written language! > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Definitly not. During the thinking underlying the philosophical disquisition ther is a stream of objects, none of which is a citta. Please look at excatly what I wrote, and you'll see why. In any case, philosopher "explaining his thoughts" is dealing with concepts., and in thinking about the matter, no citta is the arammana of a citta. The explanation I gave stands on its own. If there is a clear refutation of it, then, fine - but I don't think there is one. ------------------------------------------- > Corrections are welcome, dear upasaka! What do you think about > it ? > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,126 Hi Philip, just butting in. op 24-12-2004 11:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > It would be profitable if there is knowing of the feeling as > impermanent etc. N: Feeling should be known as nama , different from rupa, but since we join these together, we do not know feeling as nama, nonself. First nama should be distinguished from rupa. Ph: Since we are usually incapable of understanding feeling in the > moment that it arises, these feeling-related cittas would almost > invariably be unprofitable. Is my understanding correct? N: yes, it is not difficult to know that akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas. There are many akusala cittas rooted in moha with indifferent feeling we do not know. Nina. 40166 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Larry and Icaro and all, Dhamma discussion is good for all including discussing people and also for audience(readers). 'Kalena dhammasaakiccha eta.m mangala muttama.m'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Discussion is below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on bodily pains. One more question, if I may. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. It is pleasure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: When consciousness is an object does that consciousness also have an object? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, The considering mind contemplates on cittas like 'this is such a citta and that is so and so citta'. When this is happening the considering mind(citta) is the subject or actor or action-doer and it is citta. So it does have an object or arammana. That arammana or object is 'this citta..that citta..so and so citta.' Those cittas in questions do not have objects even though they hold their objects when they are actors or action-doers or subjects. For example, when you contemplate on a citta you are not contemplating on its object. As you know a citta has many many things that are connected with it. Examples things connected with a citta are 1. arammana or object of that citta 2. vatthu or base of that citta 3. cetasikas of that citta ( as many as there are ) 4. bhumi or realm of that citta 5. jati or class of that citta 6. sankharas of that citta 7. sampayutta dhammas of that citta When you just think that citta you are not going into its object. When you go into its object, here citta(of considering mind) will take 'its object' rather than 'that citta itself'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: If so, it would seem like there are two objects for one consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I have explained above. No citta can take 2 objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Otherwise, it would seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which itself doesn't have an object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When it is not the subject that is when it is not the actor in the story or when it is not the action-doer it does not have object. This does not means there are cittas without objects. But when citta is the object of another citta, that another citta does have an object and that object is the 1st mentioned citta. But that 1st mentioned citta when it is the object of another citta does not have any object. :-) Interesting questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: I bring this up because I don't understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'When rupa is a mind-door object..' When rupa serves as dhammarammana or mind-object that rupa becomes an object. It is the object of subject citta. Citta is action-doer. Mind-door objects rupas are a) 5 pasada rupas b)16 sukhuma rupas They do serve as object for the citta and they are arammana or object. Pancarammana or 5 senses may well be mind-door objects. With respect, Htoo Naing 40167 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 0:51pm Subject: Re: What is time ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > In abhidhamma time is the water element, I think. Hallo Larry, No. You should really read Karunadasa about it, you will like it.: http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm Het states clearly:time is a pannatti, thus a conceptual construct. In modern language: time is what happens if notings else happens Metta Joop 40168 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: Problem Possibly Solved/Tep Friend Howard, Thank you for your diligent search for the answer why the Yahoo! Server has performed erratically. It is very nice of you to take care of this DSG's problem on your own personal time. Next time if a problem of this kind recurs, please let me share the burden with you. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep, and all - > > In a message dated 12/24/04 12:57:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tepyawa@m... writes: > > > Hi, Howard - > > > > There was a mail in my Inbox at 5:47 A.M. CT today (from Bhikkhu > > Smahita). Right noe my local time is 11:58 A.M. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tep > ====================== > I received this post of yours, along with some other posts DSG and > other Yahoo lists, as emails!! > A day ago, I sent a form to Yahoo groups telling them of my problem, > but I got no feedback. About an hour ago I sent them a second form repeating > the problem, telling them that AOL says the problem doesn't lie with them, and > mentioning another DSG member who is having the very same problem. It seems now > that they have responded by doing something positive!! (Yay! Let's hear it > for Yahoo!) If I run into further troubles, I'll handle it the same way, but > I'll keep the matter off-list. (It doesn't really belong here. My apologies for > that.) > > With metta, > Howard 40169 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Howard, Larry, Icaro and All, Howard, we do not assume you butt in. Dhamma discussions are for members. I like your philosophy. But let us see your thought and how dhammas are working. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Hi, Larry (and Htoo) - [Larry's reply to Htoo] > In a message dated 12/24/04 7:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on bodily > > pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an object > > does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem > > like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it would > > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which > > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > > > > Larry ====================== Howard wrote: If I may butt in: Clearly citta B cannot have citta A as arammana at the time that citta A is the current citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have read your whole reply to Larry's post. Here arises citta A. It passes away. Here arises citta B. That citta B take citta A as its object. This can well happen. You are right to say 'B cannot take A as its object when A is current citta'. But citta B take citta A as its object. But that object is the past object. It is not the current object. This is like our patisandhi citta. But patisandhi cittas may take any object depending on marana-asanna-javana-cittas of immediate past life. But our patisandhi citta truely took the past object and not the current object. So do our bhavanga cittas and so will our cuti citta. Regarding object or arammana there are 1. past object 2. current object 3. future object 4. timeless object ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Thus, citta B must occur *after* citta A has ceased. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is very true. But Citta B take the past object as citta has passed away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: But, then, at the time of citta B, there *is* no citta A; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I said it is the past object and not the current object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it cannot be the object of citta B. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a citta is, in fact, nonsense! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still believe please referred to Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A as object"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know our cittas of different kinds. When we are discussing on dosa cittas at that time we may think of our experience with dosa like 'such and such time I was angry and that must be dosa that the text says' and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: The only sense I can make of that is that it means that the object (or objective content) of citta B is a memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here we are approaching another difficult area. As you said it may well seem memory. This memory is the word of every day language. Please do not mix things up. Concepts are pannatti. Memory the term that we use in daily lifeis a broad term. It is a mixture of sanna cetasikas, cittas, vedana cetasikas, and sankharas or formations or fabrications. When we think of citta A by citta B, citta A is still paramattha dhamma. It is citta. It is not pannatti. This is sure. But as an object it is the past object. I would like to suggest to study arammana very closely as a second look or multi-look. You know 'asevana paccaya'. If you study 'arammana' afresh then you would gain another experience and this will help your practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: It is a memory of citta A, which means some sort of mentally constructed/fabricated facsimile of citta A involving all or some of the aspects of that previous mindstate. So, the object is a sankharic construct, much akin to an idea. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Citta is citta. Citta is paramattha dhamma and it is never pannatti. Sankharic construction may arise if other things are put together with that pure citta A. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 40170 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:25pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, The truth is I do not know where to begin to reply to your post. I am happy enough that I do not have to reply. So I won't. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: jonoabb [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Thursday, 23 December 2004 12:45 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Herman (and Phil) Hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi Phil, ... > What the mind gets fed, gets regurgitated. Round and round it goes. > I notice such a difference between when I wasn't active on the list > and now. Now throughout the day I find myself drafting replies here, > mentally raising points there, or just thinking about what someone > wrote. While during my absence, there was none of that. Right, there was none of that particular kind of reflecting (namely, reflecting on matters being discussed on the list); but there would have been thinking about other matters, since that is the nature of the mind. Even the arahant continues to think, but without akusala. > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) to > the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. On my reading of the teachings, there is no disadvantage in thinking per se, and particularly in thinking that is kusala; the insight that leads to the eventual breaking down of that wall depends on kusala thinking of a particular kind for its development (I'm not of course saying that the thinking and the insight are the same). There are plenty of suttas that talk about hearing the dhamma, considering what has been heard and gaining a reflective acceptance of what has thus been understood, as part of the chain of conditions that culminate in enlightenment. Now as I understand matters, the thinking you are talking about here, i.e., thinking about points that have arisen for discussion on the list, is likely to include this very kind of kusala thinking. We should value it! No need to have as one's aim withdrawing from this kind of thinking. Jon [A similar post was sent previously but does not seem to have showed up on the list. Apologies for any duplication that may occur.] 40171 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Htoo, Is there some level confusion going on here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it cannot be the object of citta B. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ==== Our? ==== Howard wrote: And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a citta is, in fact, nonsense! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still believe please referred to Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A as object"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know our cittas of different kinds. ======= Precisely who is this we that needs to know all these cittas of ours? Kind Regards Herman 40172 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > vangorko@x... writes: > Khemaka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya) > > Hi Nina > > Thanks for that e-mail and the Khemaka Sutta. This is the exact Sutta I > was > looking for to quote for Sarah, but I couldn't remember the title or > find it > easily, so I found a couple of others that were suitable. ***** ..And this is the exact Sutta I referred to (amongst a couple of others) in my last post to you a few days ago;-): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40098 I wrote: >TG, I think again it depends how one reads the suttas. For example, I discussed SN 22:89 with a friend where the non-returner Khemaka explains the lurking tendency of mana (conceit) remains. ‘This is mine’ refers to craving,taking objects as belonging to self. ‘This am I’ refers to mana and ‘This is my self’ refers to the personality view, sakkaya ditthi, identified with the 5 khandhas. . >See#25213 for my comments. Here ‘this am I’ refers to mana. ***** So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, however. Metta, Sarah ========= 40173 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:13am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 83- Volition/cetanaa (m) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Kusala kamma which is bhåvanå comprises studying and teaching Dhamma, samatha, tranquil meditation, and vipassanå, the development of right understanding of realities. The development of right understanding is the highest form of kusala kamma because it leads to the eradication of ignorance. When ignorance has been eradicated there are no more conditions for rebirth in a next life, one is freed from the cycle of birth and death. We have accumulated different degrees of kusala kamma and akusala kamma and they are capable of producing their appropriate results when there is opportunity for it. We may be inclined to think that the term “accumulation” only pertains to kamma, but not only kamma is accumulated, also tendencies to kusala and akusala are accumulated. When one steals, akusala kamma is accumulated which is capable of producing vipåka later on. However vipåka is not the only effect of this unwholesome deed. Also the tendency to stealing is accumulated and thus there are conditions that one steals again. We have the potential in us for all kinds of bad deeds and when there is an opportunity akusala cetanå can motivate a bad deed through body, speech and mind. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40174 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Icaro - > > Nice to hear from you, BTW. Hope that all is well with you! > > In a message dated 12/24/04 8:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > icarofranca@y... writes: > > > > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > > >citta is, in fact, nonsense! Friend Howard (and Icaro), Well, it could happen when one `knows' the mind of another, using psychic ability. In that case, a citta is the object of another citta. Metta, James 40175 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:31am Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, Gosh Jon, you didn't answer my other question. I really wanted to know what you think it means to be a beginner, intermediate, and advanced practitioner in Buddhism. Oh well, I will answer your question, however. Jon: Is it your understanding of this passage that the first jhana is sufficient, and if not then why is it mentioned here? Put another way, why are all 4 jhanas mentioned rather than just the level that is sufficient? James: I am not quite sure what you mean by "sufficient", but I am going to assume you mean `sufficient to be deemed Right Concentration'. Yes, the first jhana would be sufficient enough to be considered Right Concentration, but one who achieves the first jhana should not be satisfied with simply that. The four jhanas are really one jhana, it is just a greater purification of the jhana. In the first jhana the concentration is more gross and unsteady and then it becomes more and more refined all the way up to the fourth jhana. Therefore, to be really right Right Concentration, all four jhanas should be achieved. Does this answer your question? Metta, James Ps. Happy Holidays to you and everyone! 40176 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sense-door, mind-door. Hi Phil, I cannot go into all your points now. But I just listened to a Thai discussion on sense-door and mind-door. Htoo reminded us of the importance of knowing the difference between nama and rupa. This is the first stage of insight knowledge. Sense-door and mind-door is an important subject connected with insight. It is a point often discussed with the Thai audience but not often with foreigners. We learnt through the Abhidhamma about different processes of cittas experiencing objects. We cannot and should not try to catch all such moments, but there is an important principle. Visible object is experienced by cittas of a sense-toor process and then by cittas of the subsequent mind-door process, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between. Note: it is visible object, not an image which is then experienced by cittas of a mind-door process. Only later on we think of an image, a whole, a person, a thing. Rupa is experienced through a sense-door and through the mind-door. Nama is experienced only through the mind-door. Now, at this moment of seeing, it seems that seeing continues, and we do not realize that visible object is also experienced through the mind-door. The mind-door process is concealed by the sense-door process. When the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows nama and rupa through the mind-door. Then one knows what a mind-door process exactly is, not before that. We see, that it is impossible to try to know now what the mind-door is, and this will cure us from wanting a quick fix. We can be realistic. On the other hand, there is no reason to be discouraged and think: how can I ever know this. Because it is only pañña itself that works its way. This can prevent us from trying to know everything quickly and also from becoming discouraged. Nina. op 24-12-2004 23:04 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Ph: Maybe discouraged is not the right word, but I wouldn't say glad > either. Sobered? 40177 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi TG, ***** > So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya > ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and > clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, > however. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= Friend Sarah, I want to examine in detail the proposal that you put forth that the Sotapanna eliminates all wrong views. First I will explain how this is a logical fallacy and second I will explain how this is a logical fallacy put forth by the commentaries and not by the Buddha himself. The statement, "The Sotapanna eliminates all wrong views" is the logical fallacy of `Allness'. Allness is the belief that one can say everything there is to say about something (in order to achieve some kind of ideal perfection) Anytime someone uses the word "all" to describe something, it is usually false. This is because reality isn't absolute. As Albert Einstein wrote, "In so far as the statements of geometry speak about reality, they are not certain, and in so far as they are certain, they do not speak about reality." Allness statements are a logical fallacy which should be avoided because they are not true. Now, did the Buddha use allness statements? No, the Buddha always taught in relative terms. As to the wrong views eliminated by the Sotapanna, let me quote the Sallekha Sutta: 3. "Venerable sir, there are these various views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines or world-doctrines.[2] Does the abandoning and discarding of such views come about in a monk who is only at the beginning of his [meditative] reflections?"[3] "Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which[4] these views arise, in which they underlie and become active,[5] is seen with right wisdom[6] as it actually is,[7] thus: 'This is not mine,[8] this I am not,[9] this is not my self'[10] -- then the abandoning of these views, their discarding,[11] takes place in him [who thus sees]. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html So, here we have "various views concerning self-doctrines or world- doctrines" and the Buddha states that these "various views" will be eliminated in one who actually sees the root of these views thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self". This sounds very reasonable to me and wise. However, this is what the commentary to this sutta states, "Comy.: "Both terms are synonymous with the ultimate eradication of wrong views, taking place at stream- entry when the fetter of personality belief is destroyed." Now wait a second, the sutta talks about VARIOUS wrong views and the commentary is talking about ALL wrong views. This is a logical fallacy put forth by the commentary and isn't something in the original sutta. My conclusion is that the Sotapanna hasn't eliminated ALL wrong views because he/she still has the fetter of ignorance. However, the Sotapanna has eliminated various wrong views which depend on a false view of self. Metta, James 40178 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version Hi Frank, Thanks so much for sparing a few more nanoseconds for Herman and myself and allowing me to share your news with friends on DSG. I hope you have seen James’s letter of thanks to you (yesterday) too. And yes, pls do add your thoughts on the B.Bodhi jhana thread when you feel inclined to do so - we won't socialize;-). Metta and best wishes for the New Year coming soon…. Sounds like a good lifestyle in Hawaii! – Sarah ======= --- Frank wrote: > Hi Herman and Sarah, > I am Frank K to confirm your suspicions. I'm on the > big island of Hawaii now, my new house on a 1 acre lot > is in the process of construction. I'm living in the > kitchen/living room right now, and the rest of the > house will take about 4 more months to complete. I'm > still subsitute teaching for grades 6-12 about 2-3 > times a week, I'm now teaching yoga twice a week at > the local health club <…> >My basic daily > pattern when I have a full day off is to alternate > sitting meidtaiton, yoga, or taiji about every 30-60 > min, for about a 2-4 hour stretch, eat and rest for > 1-1.5 hr, and then resume pattern. nap if necessary, > sleep early at 9 or 10pm, wake up at 4am. In tropical > climate, weather is nice and warm at 4am (low 60's > Fahr. is the worst it gets). > I did scan a few posts on the B.Bodhi jhana thread, > and as usual I felt he had some really excellent > points. I might add my thoughts to the thread later on > dsg. <…> >I replied offline just because as in my > physical social life, I try to keep a low profile and > discourage socialization which detracts from time I > could be meditating :-) Good to talk to you guys > again, and happy festivus. > > -fk 40179 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi, Htoo I am amazed at your output and your detailed knowledge of Abhidhamma. Thanks for this careful explanation to Larry below. Just to supplement a little about general sense and special senses as mentioned by you.. htootintnaing wrote: > In body there are many sense receptors. This is topic about body- > >sense-receptors. Special-sense-receptors are retina, organ or Corti, >olfactory cells, and taste buds. Body-sense-receptors are for general >senses not for special senses. > >Eyes also carry general sense. Ears also bear general sense. Nose >also knows general sense. Tougue also knows touch sense. But the >sense receptors that know general senses in the eyes are not >concerned with special senses. > >Among general senses, there are many different senses and they are >each carried by different pathways. Some are carried to the brain via >anterior pathway in the spinal cord. Some fibres are brought to the >brain through lateral pathways of the spinal cord. There are also >some fibres that travel up by the way of posterior path in the spinal >cord. > >Actually these are scientific realities. > As you say, the classification of senses into 'general' and 'special' is a conventional/scientific one. From the standpoint of dhammas there are 5 senses only (excluding the mind), but of these the body sensitivity is found all over the body even at the point of the other 4 conventional senses. Thus when there is painful feeling because of the severity of the experience through, say, eye door (extremely bright light) or ear door (extremely loud or screeching sound) that painful feeling is likely to be bodily painful feeling accompanying an impingement on the body sense at the site of the (conventional) eye or ear. Thanks again for you detailed explanations. Jon > There are sense of fine >touch like a single fibre of bird fur, sense of crude touch like >elephant foot, sense of pressure, sense of cold, sense of warmth, >sense of pain, sense of differentiation, sense of thrilling, sense of >vibration, and many others. > >But all these physical matters are just the work stations for mind >faculties. > >Once namarupapariccheda nana arises rupa and nama will be clearly >understood. When body senses are known, these senses will be just >seen as they are in terms of ultimate realities. Not in terms of >scientific classifications of senses. > >Back-ache, tooth-ache, cut-finger, burn, scold, upset stomach? > >Scientific basis for back-ache will be complicated with terminology. >I think there is no back-ache in dhamma. If we talk on that back-ache >then I think I might be just a mixture of 'tejo-photthabba' and 'vayo- >photthabba'. A mixture means sometimes tejo and sometimes vayo or >kayavinnana cittas are arising alternatively as receiving tejo- >phothabba and vayo-photthabba. > >When vayo predominates back-ache would seem to be rovering >horizontally or vertically along the backbones or down to bottom. >When tejo predominates back-ache would like pain. When that pain >eases off, there may notice some components of heat in the back and >then it passes away. > >Tooth-ache is more in the side of tejo-photthabba. But sometimes it >goes up to the head and may micmic head-ache. Sometimes it goes down >to the neckspine and may micmic spondylosis. > >Cut-finger is highly intense tejo-photthabba, I think. Burn is >apparent that mostly it is tejo-photthabba but vayo may also invlove. >Scold is almost the same with burn but more vayo involves than in >case of burn. > >Upset stomuch is also a mixture. Sometimes it may be perceived as >vayo-photthabba and sometimes as tejo-photthabba. > >In science even pain is subclassified into many types. Everyone knows >pain sense. Some may notice its early phase of arising and its >disappearance phase. Just before disappearing that pain is like some >warm heat. > >I think we should be able to separate out nama and rupa at least at >theoretical level. I notice here in Yahoo groups that there are many >experts in dhamma. They each have their good and excellent >proficiency in dhamma at least at some areas. But sometimes some seem >not able to differentiate between nama dhamma and rupa dhamma even in >theoretical knowledge. > >May this message help you and others. > >With Unlimited Metta, > >Htoo Naing > >PS: Seasonal greeting_ 'Merry Christmas'. > 40180 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:24am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi Sarah, Lions and hyenas live in a cycle of perpetual murder. If the offering of your opinion can only become food for either lions or hyenas, then it is as unskillful as all-hell. I'm not buying into this nonsense. Why are you? Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@y...] Sent: Saturday, 25 December 2004 7:06 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > vangorko@x... writes: > Khemaka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya) > > Hi Nina > > Thanks for that e-mail and the Khemaka Sutta. This is the exact Sutta I > was > looking for to quote for Sarah, but I couldn't remember the title or > find it > easily, so I found a couple of others that were suitable. ***** ..And this is the exact Sutta I referred to (amongst a couple of others) in my last post to you a few days ago;-): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40098 I wrote: >TG, I think again it depends how one reads the suttas. For example, I discussed SN 22:89 with a friend where the non-returner Khemaka explains the lurking tendency of mana (conceit) remains. 'This is mine' refers to craving,taking objects as belonging to self. 'This am I' refers to mana and 'This is my self' refers to the personality view, sakkaya ditthi, identified with the 5 khandhas. . >See#25213 for my comments. Here 'this am I' refers to mana. ***** So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, however. Metta, Sarah ========= 40181 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [d-l] Dhamma Thread (201) Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/25/04 12:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > There are 6 vatthus. They all are rupa dhammas. But nama dhamma have > to depend on these 6 vatthus. > > They are > > 1. cakkhuvatthu > 2. sotavatthu > 3. ghanavatthu > 4. jivhavatthu > 5. kayavatthu > 6. hadayavatthu > ========================== These 6 sense bases are supposedly rupas. They are eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and heart base, respectively. These cannot be the physical organs of eye, ear, se, tongue, body, and heart (or brain, or entire nervous system), for all those are pa~n~natti. Rupas don't "hang around," but arise and fall quickly. So, without much Pali, please, because the Pali, beyond a few words, only hinders my understanding, and the Buddha approved of teaching in the vernacular anyway: 1) What exactly are these rupas, 2) "where" do these rupas make their appearance, 3) through what sense door(s) are they known, and 4) what relationship is there between each one of them and the corresponding conventional organ? It may well be that you have, in the very many and detailed posts on Abhidhamma that came earlier, thoroughly explained this, but I plead Pali-ignorance and a kind of glazing-over-of-the-eyes syndrome in response to lists upon lists as my excuse for not having picked up on an explanation. In the case that this has aready been well explained, I apologize, but I do request even now whatever clarification you and others could provide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40182 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi, Htoo (and Larry & Icaro) - In a message dated 12/25/04 1:35:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, Larry, Icaro and All, > > Howard, we do not assume you butt in. Dhamma discussions are for > members. I like your philosophy. But let us see your thought and how > dhammas are working. > > With much respect, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > Hi, Larry (and Htoo) - > > [Larry's reply to Htoo] > > >In a message dated 12/24/04 7:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@w... > >writes: > > > >>Hi Htoo, > >> > >>Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on > bodily > >>pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an > object > >>does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem > >>like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it > would > >>seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) > which > >>itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > >>understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > >> > >>Larry > ====================== > Howard wrote: > > If I may butt in: Clearly citta B cannot have citta A as > arammana at the time that citta A is the current citta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I have read your whole reply to Larry's post. > > Here arises citta A. It passes away. > > Here arises citta B. That citta B take citta A as its object. > > This can well happen. You are right to say 'B cannot take A as its > object when A is current citta'. > > But citta B take citta A as its object. But that object is the past > object. It is not the current object. > -------------------------------------- Howard: At the time of citta B, citta A is nonexistent. Citta B has an object. It may be a memory of citta A, it may be a concept of citta A - but it cannot be citta A, because there IS NO citta A! --------------------------------------- > > This is like our patisandhi citta. But patisandhi cittas may take any > object depending on marana-asanna-javana-cittas of immediate past > life. But our patisandhi citta truely took the past object and not > the current object. So do our bhavanga cittas and so will our cuti > citta. > --------------------------------------- Howard: This is, in fact, imprecise, merely conventional speech. What arises and ceases is gone for good. -------------------------------------- > > Regarding object or arammana there are > > 1. past object > 2. current object > 3. future object > 4. timeless object > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > Thus, citta B must occur *after* citta A has ceased. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This is very true. But Citta B take the past object as citta > has passed away. > --------------------------------------- Howard: The reasserting of a claim doesn't constitute proof of that claim. --------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > But, then, at the time of citta B, there *is* no citta A; > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is why I said it is the past object and not the current > object. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it > cannot be the object of citta B. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga > cittas. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: With respect, this, again, is assertion without proof. (Also, to speak of a "past object" is confusing, because it literally means something that used to be an object. What you mean by "past object", I believe, is a dhamma that existed in the past and is the object right now of the current mindstate. ut that is the whole issue. That past phenomenon lo longer exists, and it cannot be the object of the current mindstate except in a manner of speaking. What is the actual current object is a memory or a concept, but not the past dhamma, because that does not exist. The idea that a dhamma can exist in a throughout the three times is a Sarvastivadin notion, it is eternalist in flavor, and is one of the reasons that Saravastivada was considered "hina" by the early Mahayanists. ---------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > citta is, in fact, nonsense! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it seems we disagree. ;-) ------------------------------------------- > > When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already > passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' > or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already > passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still > believe please referred to Abhidhamma. > ------------------------------------- Howard: The problem is that of precision of speech. I leave the remainder of your post without further comment, Htoo. ------------------------------------ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A > as object"? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know > our cittas of different kinds. > > When we are discussing on dosa cittas at that time we may think of > our experience with dosa like 'such and such time I was angry and > that must be dosa that the text says' and so on. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > The only sense I can make of that is that it means that the object > (or objective content) of citta B is a memory. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Here we are approaching another difficult area. As you said it may > well seem memory. This memory is the word of every day language. > > Please do not mix things up. Concepts are pannatti. Memory the term > that we use in daily lifeis a broad term. It is a mixture of sanna > cetasikas, cittas, vedana cetasikas, and sankharas or formations or > fabrications. > > When we think of citta A by citta B, citta A is still paramattha > dhamma. It is citta. It is not pannatti. This is sure. But as an > object it is the past object. > > I would like to suggest to study arammana very closely as a second > look or multi-look. You know 'asevana paccaya'. If you > study 'arammana' afresh then you would gain another experience and > this will help your practice. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > It is a memory of citta A, which means some sort of mentally > constructed/fabricated facsimile of citta A involving > all or some of the aspects of that previous mindstate. So, the object > is a sankharic construct, much akin to an idea. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Citta is citta. Citta is paramattha dhamma and it is never pannatti. > Sankharic construction may arise if other things are put together > with that pure citta A. > > May you be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40183 From: Philip Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:57am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,126 Hi Larry, and al > > Larry: sutta quote refers to the eradication of latent tendencies > (anusaya) > > in path consciousness. > > Phil: I had read the sutta and assigned a much more mundane meaning to > it. That is what I always tend to do - I'm sure most beginners do- > and it can lead to misunderstanding. Could I ask you how you > know/knew that this sutta refers to something more sublime? This afternoon after posting the above I came across the Six Sets of Six Sutta (MN 148) and see as you said that the eradication of latent tendencies is what at's issue in the previous more abbreviated sutta passage I posted from SN. Here is from the Six Set of Six: "When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one." (and variations on this for painful feeling and neither/nor feeling.) So please disregard the question above. I guess I found the answer. Metta, Phil p.s thanks for your feedback in the other thread, Nina. Sorry for dumping so many rambling comments and questions on you - though it's nothing new. I'm not feeling discouraged tonight - just well aware of how insiduous clinging is, and grateful to the Buddha for showing the way to begin every so gradually to loosen the binds that tie. If there is real understanding of the First and Second Noble Truth arising, I can feel very grateful. Dhamma is not just a feel-good game anymore if that is the case. 40184 From: Philip Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: Seasons greetings Season's greetings to all. Christmas is not a big deal in Japan and I was off to work as on any other day, having forgotten it was Christmas, but fortunately Naomi sang a bit of a sappy Christmas song in my ear before I left (the crappy one by Paul McCartney that goes "simply having a wonderful Xmas time") and it ran through my head as I walked to the station. And suddenly there was mudita at the thought of people all over the world - especially children - waking up to presents, and loved ones getting together, and so on, though for me it was just another work day with no festivites whatsoever. Very clear and very good mudita. Thanks to Naomi for that nice Christmas present. Akusala and kusala cittas come and go when I think of Christmas, beyond my control, as when I think of anything else. In this case a crappy song that I had previously disliked was a decisive condition for the arising of a moment of kusala. Or was Naomi's voice the decisive condition? Anyways, I hope you are simply having a wonderful...aargh it's still going through my head!!! Metta, Phil 40185 From: dsgmods Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:16am Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi Howard I hope the reference that I gave last time from the Mulapariyaya Sutta and its commentary and subcommentary has shown that the reference to dhammas bearing their own reality does not give rise to the problems you suggested it does. I will now offer some comments on the rest of your post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > 5. Conditions as relations between dhammas > > Dhammas are related to each other in multiple ways. These relations are > > termed 'conditions' (Pali: paccaya). > > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is an odd use of language, though, Jon, although I agree that the > Patthana uses it. The dhammas are the actual conditions. I don't have a clue > what the relations among them are. When there is a relation of determination > between dhammas A, B, C, D and dhamma E, the dhammas A,B, C, D are called the > conditions and dhamma E is called the conditioned element. A, B, C, and D are > conditions for E. What the *relation* is, I don't know. I think that, as Sarah > impled, there are just the conditions. And YET, relations among dhammas do > hold. A paradox, no? I'm afraid I don't see the paradox. To say, for example that (a) Dhamma A conditions Dhamma X by way of kamma condition, and (b) the relationship between Dh A and Dh X is that of cause and result, seems to be just different ways of saying the same thing. Where's the problem? > > 6. Characteristics and conditions -- dhammas or concepts? > > Characteristics and conditions are not dhammas, since they do not bear > > their own characteristics, but neither are they concepts. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Wow, the ontology is certainly proliferating! (And whatever happened > to "the all"?) Sorry Howard but I'm not with you here. Would you mind spelling out your point more clearly. Thanks. > > There is > > no rule of abhidhamma that says that 'If it's not a dhamma it must be a > > concept' or vice versa. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, Jon, at this point it seems to me that you are opening the door > to the possibility that I put forward of mind-door objects including items > that do not appear in any of the khandhas, and of the ayatana breakdown going > further than the khandha breakdown. > ---------------------------------------- J: I was referring to conditions, characteristics, niyamas and the like as already discussed. I don't think what I said has any further implications. > > Well, those are my comments. BTW, it would not surprise me if there are > > some differences between what I say here and what others of the (supposed) > > DSG camp say. There is of course no such thing as the "DSG point of view" > > ;-)) > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I *do* see here some differences in your perspective, greater > flexibility especially, from that of some other Abhidhammikas here. I find that > heartening, and I find most heartening your final sentence above! ;-) Glad to be the cause for some positive reaction ;-)). Jon 40186 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:44am Subject: [dsg] Re:sense-door, mind-door. Hi, Nina (and Phil) - > Now, at this moment of seeing, it seems that seeing continues, > and we do not realize that visible object is also experienced > through the mind-door. > The mind-door process is concealed by the sense-door process. > When the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, > it knows nama and rupa through the mind-door. > Then one knows what a mind-door process exactly is, > not before that. > We see, that it is impossible to try to know now what the mind-door is, > and this will cure us from wanting a quick fix. I am interested in the interval between the state in which "the mind-door process is concealed by the sense-door process" and the state "when the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows nama and rupa through the mind-door". You have hinted that "it is only panna itself that works its way". What are the supporting conditions for panna so that it can work its way until the first ray of insight knowledge appears? Is contemplating nama- rupa as " not mine, not 'I', not my 'self' " both necessary and sufficient? Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > I cannot go into all your points now. But I just listened to a Thai > discussion on sense-door and mind-door. Htoo reminded us of the importance > of knowing the difference between nama and rupa. This is the first stage of > insight knowledge. Sense-door and mind-door is an important subject > connected with insight. It is a point often discussed with the Thai > audience but not often with foreigners. > We learnt through the Abhidhamma about different processes of cittas > experiencing objects. We cannot and should not try to catch all such > moments, but there is an important principle. Visible object is experienced > by cittas of a sense-door process and then by cittas of the subsequent > mind-door process, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between. > Note: it is visible object, not an image which is then experienced by cittas > of a mind-door process. Only later on we think of an image, a whole, a > person, a thing. > Rupa is experienced through a sense-door and through the mind- door. Nama is > experienced only through the mind-door. Now, at this moment of seeing, it > seems that seeing continues, and we do not realize that visible object is > also experienced through the mind-door. The mind-door process is concealed > by the sense-door process. > When the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows > nama and rupa through the mind-door. Then one knows what a mind- door process > exactly is, not before that. > We see, that it is impossible to try to know now what the mind-door is, and > this will cure us from wanting a quick fix. We can be realistic. On the > other hand, there is no reason to be discouraged and think: how can I ever > know this. Because it is only pañña itself that works its way. This can > prevent us from trying to know everything quickly and also from becoming > discouraged. > Nina. > op 24-12-2004 23:04 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > Ph: Maybe discouraged is not the right word, but I wouldn't say glad > > either. Sobered? 40187 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:52am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/25/04 9:16:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, dsgmods@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > I hope the reference that I gave last time from the Mulapariyaya Sutta > and its commentary and subcommentary has shown that the reference to > dhammas bearing their own reality does not give rise to the problems > you suggested it does. I will now offer some comments on the rest of > your post. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >>5. Conditions as relations between dhammas > >>Dhammas are related to each other in multiple ways. These > relations are > >>termed 'conditions' (Pali: paccaya). > >> > >------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > That is an odd use of language, though, Jon, although I agree > that the > >Patthana uses it. The dhammas are the actual conditions. I don't > have a clue > >what the relations among them are. When there is a relation of > determination > >between dhammas A, B, C, D and dhamma E, the dhammas A,B, C, D are > called the > >conditions and dhamma E is called the conditioned element. A, B, C, > and D are > >conditions for E. What the *relation* is, I don't know. I think > that, as Sarah > >impled, there are just the conditions. And YET, relations among > dhammas do > >hold. A paradox, no? > > I'm afraid I don't see the paradox. To say, for example that > (a) Dhamma A conditions Dhamma X by way of kamma condition, and > (b) the relationship between Dh A and Dh X is that of cause and result, > seems to be just different ways of saying the same thing. Where's the > problem? > --------------------------------------- Howard: I understand an assertion that whenever conditions of types A, B, C, and D arise, also a condition of type E arises or will arise. The question is whether a true assertion of such a sort is claiming the existence of a type of relation. If so, there then arises the question of exactly what sort of phenomenon a relation is. One answer is that there are no such phenomena as relations. That they are concept-only, and to speak of relations is to engage in mewrely conventional speech. This seems to be the approach that Sarah is taking, and I'm increasingly persuaded that that is correct. ------------------------------------------ > > >>6. Characteristics and conditions -- dhammas or concepts? > >>Characteristics and conditions are not dhammas, since they do not bear > >>their own characteristics, but neither are they concepts. > >> > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Wow, the ontology is certainly proliferating! (And whatever > happened > >to "the all"?) > ----------------------------------------- Howard: My point was the following: If characteristics and conditions exist but they are neither pa~n~natti nor (paramattha) dhammas, then they fall into a new category! ----------------------------------------------- > > Sorry Howard but I'm not with you here. Would you mind spelling out > your point more clearly. Thanks. > > >>There is > >>no rule of abhidhamma that says that 'If it's not a dhamma it must > be a > >>concept' or vice versa. > >> > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, Jon, at this point it seems to me that you are opening > the door > >to the possibility that I put forward of mind-door objects including > items > >that do not appear in any of the khandhas, and of the ayatana > breakdown going > >further than the khandha breakdown. > >---------------------------------------- > > J: I was referring to conditions, characteristics, niyamas and the > like as already discussed. I don't think what I said has any further > implications. > > >>Well, those are my comments. BTW, it would not surprise me if > there are > >>some differences between what I say here and what others of the > (supposed) > >>DSG camp say. There is of course no such thing as the "DSG point > of view" > >>;-)) > >> > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I *do* see here some differences in your perspective, greater > >flexibility especially, from that of some other Abhidhammikas here. > I find that > >heartening, and I find most heartening your final sentence above! ;-) > > Glad to be the cause for some positive reaction ;-)). > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40188 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Larry, this seems to be connected with my post to Phil on sense-door and mind-door. op 24-12-2004 19:02 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: When consciousness is an object > does that consciousness also have an object? N: When a citta is the object of another citta, and suppose this is a citta with pañña, the last citta just attends to the characteristic of citta as nama, as a dhamma that experiences something. That is all, no concern or thinking of what the object of that citta is. L: If so, it would seem > like there are two objects for one consciousness. N: Impossible. Each citta experiences an object, and it experiences one object at a time. Otherwise, it would > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. N: As said to Phil, rupa can be experienced by cittas of a mind-door process. That is: all sense objects, and also those rupas Htoo mentions as dhammaarammana, rupas that can only be experienced through the mind-door. These are: a) 5 pasada rupas b)16 sukhuma rupas I do not see any problem here, but I do not know whether this answers your questions. Nina. 40189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Sixes. Hi Phil, Larry and you in your previous postings were both right. Read the beginning of the Six Set of > Six: He, being impinged on by a pleasant feeling... a tendency to attachment is latent in him...> Thus, in many suttas we see this pattern: he is not aware... he is aware. Nina. op 25-12-2004 14:57 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > This afternoon after posting the above I came across the Six Sets > of Six Sutta (MN 148) and see as you said that the eradication of > latent tendencies is what at's issue in the previous more abbreviated > sutta passage I posted from SN. Here is from the Six Set of > Six: "When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not > delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the > underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one." 40190 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:19am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Howard My apologies for sending this message out from the moderators' account. That was a mistake; it was of course meant to come from my personal account. Jon dsgmods wrote: >Hi Howard > >I hope the reference that I gave last time from the Mulapariyaya Sutta >and its commentary and subcommentary has shown that the reference to >dhammas bearing their own reality does not give rise to the problems >you suggested it does. I will now offer some comments on the rest of >your post. > 40191 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/25/04 10:22:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Howard > > My apologies for sending this message out from the moderators' account. > That was a mistake; it was of course meant to come from my personal account. > > Jon > ========================= Hey, what's identity all about, in any case, Jon? Just illusion, right?!! ;-)) With no illusion of metta, and with a sincere wish for holiday peace for you and all DSG'ers, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [d-l] Dhamma Thread (201) Hi Howard, interesting question. op 25-12-2004 13:45 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> In a message dated 12/25/04 12:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > >> There are 6 vatthus. They all are rupa dhammas. But nama dhamma have >> to depend on these 6 vatthus. >> >> They are >> >> 1. cakkhuvatthu >> 2. sotavatthu >> 3. ghanavatthu >> 4. jivhavatthu >> 5. kayavatthu >> 6. hadayavatthu >> > ========================== > These 6 sense bases are supposedly rupas. They are eye, ear, nose, > tongue, body, and heart base, respectively. > These cannot be the physical organs of eye, ear, se, tongue, body, and > heart (or brain, or entire nervous system), for all those are pa~n~natti. N: As to the five senses, yes, these are physical bases of origin for the sense-cognitions and also what we call in conventional language sense organs. They have each a specific sensitivity to receive the relevant rupas that are sense objects. That is why the Vis. and tiika said: they are ready for impact of the relevant sense objects. In this way there is thare condiitons for the arising of the sense cognitions. The vatthus condition the sense-cognitions by way of dependence condition (See Narada book). They arise and then fall away, but they are present long enough to function as base. Remember that citta is extremely fast, faster than rupa. Thus, when a sense base is impinged upon there are conditions for citta to experience that colour, sound, etc. H: Rupas don't > "hang around," but arise and fall quickly.: 1) What exactly are > these> rupas, N: personally I do not like to mix in medical terms, that is why I explain it as above: just rupas that arise and fall away and that have a function as base. H: 2) "where" do these rupas make their appearance, N: Eyesense: in the middle of a black circle, not bigger than a lice head, you remember the Tiika? So, more or less they appear where we say in conventional terms; eyesense, earsense. Except bodysense, as Jon just explained: all over the body. I did not speak about heartbase, but this is the physical base for all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. H: 3) through what sense > door(s) are they known, N: Through the mind-door. You cannot see your eyesense. H: and 4) what relationship is there between each one of > them and the corresponding conventional organ? N: They are seperate rupas, no relationsship between them. As the Book of Analysis says: seeing does not know hearing, hearing does not know smelling, etc. The corresponding conventional organ: this says something about the location, but, it is of quite another order. Science does not lead to detachment. Science does not help us to see impermanence, the arising and falling away of rupas. This is most important, otherwise we do not reach the goal. We should not let ourselves be delayed by science, we lose precious time. It is urgent to develop understanding of nama and rupa now. Heartbase: it is not important where exactly it is, near the heart (remember old posts). The main thing is: all cittas (in the planes where there are five khandhas) need a physical base, they are connected with what we call body, do not arise outside it. Thus, the five khandhas arise and fall away together. Nama and rupa support each other. Nina. 40193 From: Philip Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:39pm Subject: Re:sense-door, mind-door. Hello Nina, and all > We see, that it is impossible to try to know now what the mind-door is, and > this will cure us from wanting a quick fix. We can be realistic. On the > other hand, there is no reason to be discouraged and think: how can I ever > know this. Because it is only pañña itself that works its way. This can > prevent us from trying to know everything quickly and also from becoming > discouraged. Phil: Yes, the discouragement is related to wrong view of self, the aspect that makes one cling to progress in this one lifetime. (Not that there won't be progress in this one lifetime, but the clinging to progress in this one lifetime for which Westerners have cultural- based accumulations is an obstacle, surely.) I am still reading too many suttas too quickly, but there *mey* be some benefit accruing from it. This morning I read MN 143, aloud, repeating aloud "I will not cling to the eye and my consciousness will not be dependent on the eye" and so on for all the six sets of six, plus the four elements, and the khandas. The cumulutive effect of repeating this aloud is very calming and encouraging. The "will", for me, though I know not the Pali used, is an encouraging prediction, not a determination to do it here and now by "will" power. No, it is a prediction of something that can happen in one lifetime, I know not when. But it can only happen if I begin patiently to develop right understanding, moment by moment, without expectations. As you write in your book on the Paramis: "When we are in a hurry or when we are tired it seems that realities do not appear as they are, one at a time. Right understanding has not been developed yet, and that is why mindfulness has to begin again and again. Nama and rupa have to be studied with mindfulness at the moment that they appear, one at a time. Maybe our whole life consists of mere beginnings of understanding, we have to begin again and again, but this is the only way to begin to develop right understanding." I am leaning on the desk and there is hardness. No, it is thinking about hardness. But the thinking is a reality. Moment by moment, beginning again and again. Feeling calmer and more confident this morning. Very grateful for your help these days, Nina. Metta, Phil 40194 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Herman, No. There is no confusion at all. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: Hi Htoo, Is there some level confusion going on here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nope. Not at all. All are clear. Howard and I are discussing on citta A and citta B. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it > cannot be the object of citta B. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga > cittas. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ==== Herman wrote: Our? ==== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said, Howard and I are discussing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard wrote: > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > citta is, in fact, nonsense! > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. > > When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already > passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' > or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already > passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still > believe please referred to Abhidhamma. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Howard wrote: > > So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A > as object"? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know > our cittas of different kinds. > ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: Precisely who is this we that needs to know all these cittas of ours? Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To say precisely there is no 'we' and no 'ours' at all. :-) With Metta, Htoo Naing 40195 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:25pm Subject: Re: [d-l] Dhamma Thread (201) Dear Howard, Thanks for your reply. Please see below for explanations and discussions. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howar wrote: Hi, Htoo - Howard wrote: Hi, Htoo - [Htoo post]> In a message dated 12/25/04 12:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > There are 6 vatthus. They all are rupa dhammas. But nama dhamma have > > to depend on these 6 vatthus. > > > > They are > > > > 1. cakkhuvatthu > > 2. sotavatthu > > 3. ghanavatthu > > 4. jivhavatthu > > 5. kayavatthu > > 6. hadayavatthu > > ========================== Howard wrote: These 6 sense bases are supposedly rupas. They are eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and heart base, respectively. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. All these rupa are ultimate realities. They are paramattha dhamma. 'Parama' means 'higher' and 'attha' means 'meaning' or 'essence'. Paramattha means 'higher essence'. They are ultimate realties and they cannot be further dissected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: These cannot be the physical organs of eye, ear, se, tongue, body, and heart (or brain, or entire nervous system), for all those are pa~n~natti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is right. That is why I said these pasada rupa and hadaya rupa cannot be sensed by 5 physical sense-bases. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Rupas don't "hang around," but arise and fall quickly. So, without much Pali, please, because the Pali, beyond a few words, only hinders my understanding, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand. For speediness all dhamma words are written in Pali and this helps accuracy. I already include to ask at the bottom if you believe there are more than a few words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: and the Buddha approved of teaching in the vernacular anyway: 1) What exactly are these rupas, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They are finally 4 mahabhuta rupas or 4 great elements. But the collection of 4 elements here is arranged especially here and this special arrangement cause these 5 pasada rupa to have a special characteristics of 'clarity'. This clearness works for their separate function. Clarity in eye does not work for hearing and so forth. They are in their respective place of physical organs but they cannot be seen, heard, smelled, tasted and touched. Because they are not the object of these 5 sense organ. Example is cakkhu pasada rupa situates in the eye. But as soon as that eye is removed there is no more cakkhu pasada. But when this removed eye is implanted into other people who do not have eye, there might arise cakkhu pasada rupa. These are that what exactly these pasada rupas are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: 2) "where" do these rupas make their appearance, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They do not appear to our 5 physical sense. But they do arise and fall away. They exist. They are ultimate realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: 3) through what sense door(s) are they known, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Only through mind-door. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: and 4) what relationship is there between each one of them and the corresponding conventional organ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) There is 'no organ' at all. But as you already included that 'the corresponding conventional organ', I would have to say that the conventional organs do support these 5 pasada rupas. But as I said as soon as the organs are removed, they will not contain any pasada rupa. But as soon as the explanted organs are transplanted, there is *possibility* that pasada rupa may arise. This will depend on kamma of receivers. All pasada rupas are kammaja eka.m rupa. That is all pasada rupas are generated only by kamma. There is no other cause for arising of pasada rupa apart from kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: It may well be that you have, in the very many and detailed posts on Abhidhamma that came earlier, thoroughly explained this, but I plead Pali-ignorance and a kind of glazing-over-of-the-eyes syndrome in response to lists upon lists as my excuse for not having picked up on an explanation. In the case that this has aready been well explained, I apologize, but I do request even now whatever clarification you and others could provide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, it is fine and no need for apology. I already include to ask at the bottom as PS. With respect, Htoo Naing 40196 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Howard, We do not need to agree everything. Everyone has his or her own right. I just took 'present object' 'past object' 'future object' from Abhidhammatthasangaha written by Venerable Anuruddha of Mahatumula Monastry. I think we will not have the same view on pannatti. When I said 'citta B can take citta A as object', you believe that that object has to be memory. I said it is paramattha dhamma citta but as a past object. Patisandhi citta, bhavanga cittas and cuti citta of this life take the past object. They can never take current object. They are also not taking memory. In a pancadvara vithi vara of 17 cittas, the first 3 cittas are bhavanga cittas and not in the vithi vara. All 14 vithi cittas in this series take an exact single object. At the end follow many many bhavanga cittas. Again another vithi vara arise. Take that object again. But at that time as rupa passed away, there is no more object. But new series take the past object. Again 'pannatti never arise and never fall away'. But what arise and fall away is citta that take pannatti as its object. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo (and Larry & Icaro) - > > In a message dated 12/25/04 1:35:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, Larry, Icaro and All, > > > > Howard, we do not assume you butt in. Dhamma discussions are for > > members. I like your philosophy. But let us see your thought and how > > dhammas are working. > > > > With much respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > Hi, Larry (and Htoo) - > > > > [Larry's reply to Htoo] > > > > >In a message dated 12/24/04 7:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > LBIDD@w... > > >writes: > > > > > >>Hi Htoo, > > >> > > >>Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on > > bodily > > >>pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an > > object > > >>does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem > > >>like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it > > would > > >>seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) > > which > > >>itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > > >>understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > > >> > > >>Larry > > ====================== > > Howard wrote: > > > > If I may butt in: Clearly citta B cannot have citta A as > > arammana at the time that citta A is the current citta. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > I have read your whole reply to Larry's post. > > > > Here arises citta A. It passes away. > > > > Here arises citta B. That citta B take citta A as its object. > > > > This can well happen. You are right to say 'B cannot take A as its > > object when A is current citta'. > > > > But citta B take citta A as its object. But that object is the past > > object. It is not the current object. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > At the time of citta B, citta A is nonexistent. Citta B has an object. > It may be a memory of citta A, it may be a concept of citta A - but it cannot > be citta A, because there IS NO citta A! > --------------------------------------- > > > > > This is like our patisandhi citta. But patisandhi cittas may take any > > object depending on marana-asanna-javana-cittas of immediate past > > life. But our patisandhi citta truely took the past object and not > > the current object. So do our bhavanga cittas and so will our cuti > > citta. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is, in fact, imprecise, merely conventional speech. What arises > and ceases is gone for good. > -------------------------------------- > > > > > Regarding object or arammana there are > > > > 1. past object > > 2. current object > > 3. future object > > 4. timeless object > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > Thus, citta B must occur *after* citta A has ceased. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: This is very true. But Citta B take the past object as citta > > has passed away. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > The reasserting of a claim doesn't constitute proof of that claim. > --------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > But, then, at the time of citta B, there *is* no citta A; > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: That is why I said it is the past object and not the current > > object. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it > > cannot be the object of citta B. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga > > cittas. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > With respect, this, again, is assertion without proof. (Also, to speak > of a "past object" is confusing, because it literally means something that > used to be an object. What you mean by "past object", I believe, is a dhamma > that existed in the past and is the object right now of the current mindstate. ut > that is the whole issue. That past phenomenon lo longer exists, and it cannot > be the object of the current mindstate except in a manner of speaking. What > is the actual current object is a memory or a concept, but not the past dhamma, > because that does not exist. The idea that a dhamma can exist in a throughout > the three times is a Sarvastivadin notion, it is eternalist in flavor, and is > one of the reasons that Saravastivada was considered "hina" by the early > Mahayanists. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > > citta is, in fact, nonsense! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, it seems we disagree. ;-) > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already > > passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' > > or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already > > passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still > > believe please referred to Abhidhamma. > > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > The problem is that of precision of speech. I leave the remainder of > your post without further comment, Htoo. > ------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A > > as object"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know > > our cittas of different kinds. > > > > When we are discussing on dosa cittas at that time we may think of > > our experience with dosa like 'such and such time I was angry and > > that must be dosa that the text says' and so on. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > The only sense I can make of that is that it means that the object > > (or objective content) of citta B is a memory. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > Here we are approaching another difficult area. As you said it may > > well seem memory. This memory is the word of every day language. > > > > Please do not mix things up. Concepts are pannatti. Memory the term > > that we use in daily lifeis a broad term. It is a mixture of sanna > > cetasikas, cittas, vedana cetasikas, and sankharas or formations or > > fabrications. > > > > When we think of citta A by citta B, citta A is still paramattha > > dhamma. It is citta. It is not pannatti. This is sure. But as an > > object it is the past object. > > > > I would like to suggest to study arammana very closely as a second > > look or multi-look. You know 'asevana paccaya'. If you > > study 'arammana' afresh then you would gain another experience and > > this will help your practice. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > It is a memory of citta A, which means some sort of mentally > > constructed/fabricated facsimile of citta A involving > > all or some of the aspects of that previous mindstate. So, the object > > is a sankharic construct, much akin to an idea. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > Citta is citta. Citta is paramattha dhamma and it is never pannatti. > > Sankharic construction may arise if other things are put together > > with that pure citta A. > > > > May you be free from suffering. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > ========================= > With metta, > Howard > 40197 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (202) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta There are 1. 2 cakkhuvatthu nissita cittas (2 cakkhuvinnana cittas) 2. 2 sotavatthu nissita cittas (2 sotavinana cittas) 3. 2 ghanavatthu nissita cittas (2 ghanavinnana cittas) 4. 2 jivhavatthu nissita cittas (2 jivhavinnana cittas) 5. 2 kayavatthu nissita cittas (2 kayavinnana cittas) 6.75 hadayavatthu nissita cittas (3 manodhatu, 11 tadarammanas 2 dosas, 1 sotapatti magga, 1 hasituppada, 15 rupavacaras 8 mahakusala, 4 arupakusala, 10 akusalas after substraction of(2)dosa, 1 manodvaravajjana, 8 mahakiriya, 4 arupakiriya, 7 lokuttara cittas after removal of sotapatti magga) 7. 4 hadayavatthu anissita cittas ( 4 arupavipaka cittas ) Here cakkhuvatthu means eye-base. Nissita means 'depending on' 'dwelling on' 'by way of'. 2 cittas arise at cakkhuvatthu and so do other 8 of pancavinnana cittas at their respective vatthu or sense- base. 4 arupavipaka cittas arise without any rupa as they all are arupa brahma's vipaka cittas. Among 75 hadayavatthu nissita cittas, 42 cittas depend or take the ground on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumi. But when these 42 cittas arise in catuvokara bhumis that is 4 arupa realms, they do not depend on any rupa at all. So they do not depend on hadayavatthu. So these 42 cittas sometimes dependon hadaya vatthu and sometimes not. 33 cittas always depend on hadaya vatthu. 3 cittas are 3 mano-dhatu and they always depend on hadaya vatthu. Other 30 cittas are 15 rupavacara cittas, 11 tadarammana cittas, 2 dosa citta and 1 sotapatti magga citta. This is why puthujana arupa brahma cannot be ariya in that realm because sotapatti magga citta does not arise in arupa brahma bhumi or realm. But when arupa brhamas are born-ariyas like sotapatti phala puggala or above they can have progress up to arahatta magga nana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40198 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:24pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (203) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta In earlier posts, dhammas are made into dhamma molecules by dhamma atoms. H2 and O make a water molecule. A dhamma atom pure 'citta' and 7 dhamma atoms 'cetasikas' make a dhamma molecule called 'pancavinnana citta'. Glucose is a molecule. Protein is also a molecule. Sometime glucose and protein are formed into another compound called glycoprotein. Like this complex chemical structure, dhamma molecule 'citta- cetasikas combination' and dhamma molecule 'a rupa' are formed into another dhamma compound called nama-rupa. For example, cakkhuvinnana citta is a combination of pure citta and 7 universal cetasikas. Again it is linked with cakkhu pasada rupa and make nama-rupa dhamma compound. Cakkhuvinnana citta has to based on cakkhu pasada rupa or cakkhu vatthu. It has to depend on cakkhu vatthu. It has to take the ground cakkhu vatthu. It has to dwell on cakkhu vatthu. It homes on cakkhu vatthu. In botany regarding plant physiology, there is a compound called chlorophil. By this chemical plant can synthesize their own food unlike animals who always have to depend on other for food like plants or other animals. That chlorophil is a very complex structure. In the middle of the molecule is Maganisium atom and it is linked with pyrrole rings structures and protein molecules. Again protein molecules are folded into primary structure, secondary structure, tertiary structure, quarternary structure etc. Like these primary, secondary, tertiary folding, dhammas have also many foldings. That nama-rupa compound is made into another complex with another rupa who serves as arammana or object. So citta is attached with cetasikas and this combination homes on vatthu and it also has to hold the arammana or object. Without arammana or object that citta- cetasikas combination would fall out. That means 'without arammana no citta can arise. In vatthu calssification there are 1. 10 pancavatthu nissita cittas (10 pancavinnana cittas) 2. 33 hadaya-sadaa-nissita cittas ( always depend on ) 3. 42 hadaya-nissita-anissita cittas( sometimes depend-sometimes not) 4. 4 hadaya anissita cittas ----- 89 total cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40199 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:34pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (204) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta All 89 cittas are vinnana. They are synonyms for consciousness. Sometimes they can be called as vinnana cittas. There are 6 kinds of vinnana or 'vinnana chakka'. 'Cakkhuvinnaana.m sotavinnaana.m ghaanavinnaana.m jivhaavinnaana.m kaayavinnaana.m manovinnaananceti chavinnaanaani'. 1. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas 2. 2 sotavinnana cittas 3. 2 ghanavinnana cittas 4. 2 jivhavinnana cittas 5. 2 kayavinnana cittas 6.79 manovinnana cittas ---------------- 89 total cittas But 79 manovinnana cittas are put into 2 separate dhatus as 3 mano- dhatu and 76 mano-vinnana-dhatu. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts.