40800 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Jon (and James) - In a message dated 1/9/05 3:42:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Thanks for the promotion to beyond the 'beginner' ranks ;-)) However, > I'm sticking with my present diagnosis of weak and undeveloped insight. > I suppose it all depends on what you mean by 'insight'. To my > understanding it's something that arises of its own accord, without any > 'practising' for it. > ====================== I know this topic is getting old. However ... ;-) What about bhavana, Jon? Cultivation? Is there no Buddhist practice at all according to the Buddha? What about those suttas we talked about a long time ago pertaining to spiral development? (In that regard, please look at the entirety of message # 14360.) Was there no cultivation involved in that? What about attending to the kusala and akusala mindstates that arise, supporting the former and opposing the latter that the Buddha put forward as right effort - the "sense control" that the Buddha mentions? Did the Buddha develop ten paramitas over the course of aeons randomly, with no conventional action take on his part, no practice, no cultivation? Did he become the Buddha by good luck?? Is there no conventional Buddhist practice urged by the Buddha at all? If I truly believed not, then I would go elsewhere, because the Dhamma would just become a nice story/theory to be debated on the internet, AFAIC ("as far as I'm concerned")! With metta, Howard P.S. Describing insight as "something that arises of its own accord" is surely not what you literally mean, for that is a self-causation view, and contrary to the Dhamma. I suppose what you mean is that insight arises without cetana as a condition. But does it, Jon? Is insight not a kammic consequence? /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40801 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi, Matthew (and Nina) - In a message dated 1/9/05 8:00:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >Balance has to do with medical science. A different field. Helpful > >for curing diseases, but not serving detachment from nama and rupa. > > Thanks for your reply, Nina. However, I'm still not very convinced. > Balance is a sense, like hearing, seeing, tasting and so on. > Depending on how you approach these senses, they ALL belong to > medical science, or they ALL belong to vipassana (e.g. we can observe > their arising, see how they are all anicca, anatta and, through > clinging, dukkha). > > For example, imagine someone who is being mindful. While standing up > mindfully, she suddenly feels dizziness. She notes "dizziness, > dizziness" but rather than panicking and clinging to the dizziness > (perhaps with a medical story like "I'm having a stroke!"), she > watches how it passes, noting "balance, balance" as her sense of > balance returns. Perhaps at the same time she notes that her vision > blacks out. She notes this as well, and notes as the seeing returns > ("seeing, seeing"). > > How is balance here different from hearing, seeing and tasting or any > other pasada rupa? > > Matthew > > ======================== Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? (As do all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to tingling, to sensations for which we have no names.) With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40802 From: Matthew Miller Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:55am Subject: Re: pasada rupas > Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? >(As do all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to > tingling, to sensations for which we have no names.) > It could be argued that ALL of the senses fall under "body sense." Hearing, for example, is really a form of touch (sensation of pressure). Odor and flavor have pretty much the same objects and there's quite a bit of overlap between them. Many flavors are recognized mainly through the sense of smell. If you hold your nose while eating chocolate, for example, you will have trouble identifying the chocolate flavor, even though you can distinguish the food's sweetness or bitterness. Try it yourself. This is because the familiar flavor of chocolate is sensed largely by odor. This is true for the flavor of coffee as well. The abhidhamma scheme is one way of cutting up the "pie" of experience. But whatever value abhidhamma has as a heuristic device for vipassana, as a philosophy it is quite sloppy and mired in dualism (mental/physical, etc). Indeed, it is not difficult to deconstruct the paramattha/samutti duality (that is, to show that so-called "ultimate" realities are in fact "conventional"). Matthew 40803 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: pasada rupas Hi Howard and Matthew, I agree with Howard that balance is covered under body sense, plus we could add the rupa "wieldiness" (kamma~n~nataa). "Wieldiness has the characteristic of wieldiness that is favorable to bodily action", CMA. It would be hard to see balance as a sense door with an object and the occasion of contact. It is true that all 5 sense doors rely on touch to make contact but what is touched is different in each case and is suited to a particular kind of object. Matthew wrote: "Indeed, it is not difficult to deconstruct the paramattha/samutti duality (that is, to show that so- called "ultimate" realities are in fact "conventional")." I think it is very difficult. Otherwise we would all be arahants. Larry 40804 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 1/9/05 10:55:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > > >Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? > >(As do all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to > >tingling, to sensations for which we have no names.) > > > > It could be argued that ALL of the senses fall under "body sense." > ----------------------------------------- Howard: It *could* be so argued, but that is not the Buddhist categorization. (And for good reason, I think, as I will indicate shortly.) --------------------------------------- > Hearing, for example, is really a form of touch (sensation of > pressure). > --------------------------------------- Howard: No, it is not - not in terms of experience, and that is what the Dhamma concerns itself with. Speaking conventionally: A powerful noise will cause extreme pressure on the ears. There will be two different sorts of sensation: pain (bodily sensation) and heard sound (auditory sensation). There is a perceptable difference in *kind* among the sensations coming through the various sense doors. Bodily sensations, sights, sounds, tastes, odors, and mind objects do not have the same "feel" or "taste" or "flavor" as one another. --------------------------------------- Odor and flavor have pretty much the same objects and> > there's quite a bit of overlap between them. Many flavors are > recognized mainly through the sense of smell. If you hold your nose > while eating chocolate, for example, you will have trouble > identifying the chocolate flavor, even though you can distinguish the > food's sweetness or bitterness. Try it yourself. This is because the > familiar flavor of chocolate is sensed largely by odor. This is true > for the flavor of coffee as well. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I believe that odor is one object and flavor another. When there is tasting there is only tasting, and when there is smelling there is only smelling. I think that the "taste" of an orange is a mental construct fabricated from moments of tasting sweet and sour flavor and smelling various odors. I believe that taste is a construct. Moreover, it seems to be highlighted in our perception more than the elementary flavors and odors from which it is constructed, and that are the primary conditions engendering it. I suspect that with heightened concentration and mindfulness, these all could be separated out. I agree that our mental processing combines the data of various sense doors. That is mind-door processing; it is sankharic processing. In particular, that is how our "world of concept" is created. -------------------------------------------- > > The abhidhamma scheme is one way of cutting up the "pie" of > experience. But whatever value abhidhamma has as a heuristic device > for vipassana, as a philosophy it is quite sloppy and mired in > dualism (mental/physical, etc). Indeed, it is not difficult to > deconstruct the paramattha/samutti duality (that is, to show that > so-called "ultimate" realities are in fact "conventional"). > ----------------------------------- Howard: So, do you think that visual objects, or sights, are a matter of convention? When we open our eyes and look, is the sight a matter of convention? (I don't mean how we then cognize it by means of cutting it up into regions and conventional objects. I mean just the very brief, unembellished sight.) BTW, I shouldn't really be the person "defending" Abhidhamma. I, myself, have a few "problems" with it. More importantly, I know very little of it. I would welcome other, more knowledgeable, folks joining in on this conversation. ------------------------------------- > > Matthew > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40805 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > > > 2) Calling things non-realities or realities, tends to see the non- > realities > > as empty (which is fine) and realities as substantial (which is > not fine). > > > > ========== > Dear TG, > This problem might be because of not understanding the pali well. > In the foreword to Realities and Concepts (Sujin Boriharnwanaket) it > says: > > "The Pali terms promote clarity.., they are used because the English > words are too approximate and have varying connotations. Reality, > for instance, is the usual English translation of dhamma. It can also > be translated as thing or phenomenon. Yet these English terms may > imply something substantial whereas dhammas are fundamentally > evanescent" > RobertK Hi TG and Robert, Another tack might be to say what is meant by saying concepts are nonexistent or not real is that concepts are not true. Take the concept of a reality, an object of satipatthana. Concept is name and meaning. The meaning is the reality in this case, so the meaning is real. The name is an intimation, either verbal or bodily. [I consider mental intimations, aka thoughts, as memories of these intimations.] As such the name is also real. What is not real or false is the equation "this equals that". The sensation of hardness is not a name (intimation). On the level of panna we could say there is no general "sensation of hardness", only a very specific sensation of hardness that doesn't even have a specific name, is immediately gone, and, as sensation, is an illusion-like emptiness because of being of the "stuff" of consciousness while rupa is without any mental qualities at all. However, this equation is part of every moment of consciousness, even lokuttara, because it is sanna's equation, part of how we recognize and make sense out of experience. Without it experience would be a meaningless blur. But it is ultimately not true. Because of being not true we could say this equation of conceptuality is a primary source of suffering in that it provides the basic material for beliefs in permanence, desirableness, and self. Larry 40806 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi, Larry (and TG & Robert) - In a message dated 1/9/05 1:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi TG and Robert, > > Another tack might be to say what is meant by saying concepts are > nonexistent or not real is that concepts are not true. Take the > concept of a reality, an object of satipatthana. Concept is name and > meaning. The meaning is the reality in this case, so the meaning is > real. The name is an intimation, either verbal or bodily. [I consider > mental intimations, aka thoughts, as memories of these intimations.] > As such the name is also real. What is not real or false is the > equation "this equals that". The sensation of hardness is not a name > (intimation). > > On the level of panna we could say there is no general "sensation of > hardness", only a very specific sensation of hardness that doesn't > even have a specific name, is immediately gone, and, as sensation, is > an illusion-like emptiness because of being of the "stuff" of > consciousness while rupa is without any mental qualities at all. > > However, this equation is part of every moment of consciousness, even > lokuttara, because it is sanna's equation, part of how we recognize > and make sense out of experience. Without it experience would be a > meaningless blur. But it is ultimately not true. Because of being not > true we could say this equation of conceptuality is a primary source > of suffering in that it provides the basic material for beliefs in > permanence, desirableness, and self. > > Larry > > ======================= That's a good analysis for concepts that reference actual existence, such as hardness. But it isn't sufficient fo concepts of such things as cars, tables, and trees. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40807 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:39am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi again - In a message dated 1/9/05 1:36:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > That's a good analysis for concepts that reference actual existence, > such as hardness. ==================== I meant "existents", not "existence". Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40808 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika Nina: "Saññaa marks the object that is cognized by citta so that it can be recognized." Hi Nina, Can you say more about this mark. Is it a sign (nimitta)? Also, what about the object? It seems that often the object of sanna is a complex experience. Maybe the deer is afraid of the scarecrow because the farmer threw a stick at the deer. How much of this reasoning is the work of sanna? Larry 40809 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:55am Subject: Rob M. Has anyone heard from Rob M? I hope he didn't get swept away in the tsunami. Larry 40810 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Tep's Comment: > > I think you are talking about the same thing, although the individual > points may sound different. > > It is my understanding that pannatti is the conventional truth > (vohara-sacca), that is not paramattha (realities in the highest > sense). Concepts are a part of pannatti; they are useful as a vehicle > (a "raft") for crossing over the river of samsara, and what we have > as the result of Dhamma learning (crossing over the samsara) is the > penetration of the paramattha dhamma. Once the Dhamma is learnt, we > don't need any concepts or pannatti and there are no thoughts (mental > formations, sankhara) in the Arahat. > > Warm regards, > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep, Howard, TG, Herman and All, > > Regarding truth, there are conventional truth or 'samuti sacca' and > ultimate truth or 'paramattha sacca'. > > Samuti sacca or conventional truths are not always true. For > example 'water boils at 100 degrees Centigrade'. Even though it is > true most of the time, this statement is not always true. > > But unlike 'samuti sacca' or conventional truth, 'paramattha sacca' > or ultimate truths are always true and they are ultimate realities. > > > Culapanthaka just rubbed and said what he was instructed. Even though > he was rubbing and saying he was still weeping in despair. But when > he saw changes in the rubbing cloth he was out of pannatti and with > this recognition of change (anicca) he was rocketed up till arahatta > magga nana. > > Why did The Buddha instructed him to rub that cloth/rag? > > Concepts may be pannatti. By why The Buddha instructed in such a > particular way is because of pannindriya cetasikas. Panna is not > pannatti. > ------------------------------------------ Dear Htoo - Thank you very much for the clear explanation for the terms pannatti (sadda-pannatti and attha-pannatti), and samuti sacca(conventional truth that may not always be true) vesus paramattha (truths that are always true). So, vohara-sacca is in the class of samuti sacca. Is my understanding correct? I particularly like the following example you have given: --------------------------------------------------- > > But when we investigate 'where is water' 'what is water', we cannot > find any water at all. This means that there is no 'water' in reality > or as ultimate truth. > > 1. We see what we call water. But this is just seeing and seeing > consciousness. > > 2. When we drink water we taste it. It is taste but not water. > > 3. When we touch water, we are not touching water but coldness- warmth > or force of water when it is moving like tsunami or consistency of it > which we can sense through striking it with our palms or when we swim > under water while body is moving the hardness-softness or consistency > is felt through the body. > > But there is no water at all. > ------------------------------------ Warm regards, Tep ========= 40811 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, Nina and Tep, > > Htoo, since you asked for comments, this seems to me maybe to fall > under sa.nkhaarakha.nda--of course for the arahat, not > uppaadanakha.nda. > > mike > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Mike, > > Thank you very much for your kind input. It makes sense that you > said 'this seems to me maybe to fall under sankhaara.kkhandhaa or > arahat.' > > Yes, it may well be. > > Example is viriya cetasika. It is a part of sankhara.kkhandha. > > When we smile we need viriya. When we speak viriya. When we meditate > we need viriya. Speaking fast is pushed by viriya. I think habit > reside in sankhara.kkhandha. Because cetana is already pure in > arahattas. > > Thanks for your thought. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo, Mike and Nina - I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in sankhara khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by the Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, so how come vasana still does? I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you think? Kindest regards, Tep ============= 40812 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Howard: "That's a good analysis for concepts that reference actual existence, such as hardness. But it isn't sufficient for concepts of such things as cars, tables, and trees." Hi Howard, For cars, tables, and trees we are talking about a name that encompasses many realities. The falsity of the equation still holds; the name car does not equal the many rupas that that name is supposed to represent. I think the sense of permanence has as much to do with memory as concept and belief manipulates these concepts into what we want. More abstract concepts such as mathematics or philosophy are harder to sort out but I think ultimately there is a reality in the meaning though the belief may be false. Take a purple elephant. The name "elephant" encompasses many realities and purple is a reality but the belief "all elephants are purple" is clearly false on many levels. Thinking about these things isn't satipatthana and could possibly be categorized as manipulating beliefs which is a more complex order of concept where the meaning is also a name; plus attachment is the underlying motif belief. Larry 40813 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Pilgrimage India, I a. Pilgrimage in India, October/November 2004. Lessons in Detachment. Chapter 1. The Holy Places. ³Abandon evil, O monks! One can abandon evil, O monks!If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say ŒAbandon evil!¹ If this abandoning of evil would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to abandon it. But as the abandoning of evil brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, Œabandon evil!¹ Cultivate the good, O monks! One can cultivate what is good, O monks. If it were impossible to cultivate the good, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ If this cultivation of the good would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to cultivate it. But as the cultivation of the good brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ ² (Gradual Sayings Book of the twos, II, 9, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158.) These compassionate words of the Buddha show that also in his lifetime people must have struggled with the depth and complexity of his teachings and had to be encouraged on the right path. How much more so in our days! During one of our long and strenuous bus rides through India Lodewijk recited this sutta to our friends. Lodewijk and I started our pilgrimage in New Delhi where we visited Kuru, the place where the Buddha preached the Satipatthåna Sutta. We climbed up to the rocks to look at the stone with Ashoka's inscription. Here I read aloud to Lodewijk the Satipatthåna Sutta. Before, this place was a heap of dirt and public toilet, but our friend S.K. Singh, former secretary of foreign affairs, had it restored and fenced in. Trees were planted and now it has become a peaceful place where one can reflect on the Satipatthåna Sutta. **** Nina. 40814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi Metthew, Balance and the stroke etc. you describe seems to be a whole story we can think of. Not a dhamma that can be directly experienced as only a rupa, without thinking. Insight is not thinking. Saying: balance, balance, of even saying: seeing, seeing, this is not the development of direct understanding of dhammas with the purpose of penetrating their true characteristics. Insight is not watching either, nor noting. There is still an idea of self thinking here. It does not help, as I see it. Nina. op 09-01-2005 13:59 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@y...: > she > watches how it passes, noting "balance, balance" as her sense of > balance returns. Perhaps at the same time she notes that her vision > blacks out. She notes this as well, and notes as the seeing returns > ("seeing, seeing"). > > How is balance here different from hearing, seeing and tasting or any > other pasada rupa? 40815 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi Howard, Bodysense itself is all over the body, it is the bodydoor through which can be experienced: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. Nothing more than that. We can think of balance, nausea, etc. but what are they? That is the question. They are situations, stories, not dhammas with characteristics that can be directly experienced. Howard, your remark about having difficulty to understand the rupas nutrition and life faculty made me reflect a little more. I do not know whether you find this meaningful. When we compare a corpse and a living body there is something in a living body not found in a corpse. That is life faculty. Life faculty is together with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. Thus, together with eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, so that we can receive vipaka, such as seeing, hearing, which are results of kamma. A corpse is like a log of wood. No life faculty. Nutritive essence is like a lifesap that permeates the whole body when one has eaten food. A corpse does not have this. It is only in a living body. Ledi Sayadaw uses some similes (on p. 16), under rupas. Jivita rupa keeps the rupas produced by kamma fresh, just as the water in a pond preserves the lotus therein and prevents it from decay. Nutrition is so also nutrition supports the other rupas. Then there are the rupas lightness, pliancy and adaptability, that condition suppleness. These originate from temperature, nutrition and citta. They are only in a living body, not in a corpse. Just a few thoughts, Nina. op 09-01-2005 14:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ====================== > Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? (As do > all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to tingling, to > sensations for which we have no names.) 40816 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi Howard, No Howard, you answered very well about the different senses. You formulated it well. Nina. op 09-01-2005 18:36 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > BTW, I shouldn't really be the person "defending" Abhidhamma. I, > myself, have a few "problems" with it. More importantly, I know very little of > it. > I would welcome other, more knowledgeable, folks joining in on this > conversation. 40817 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Kelvin, Thanks for explaining what you meant with your previous post. Well, I really don't have much to say. The question is if ascetics and Brahmins means `anyone', and apparently it doesn't. Thanks for the post. Metta, James 40818 From: David Cosentino Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Nina- Just a couple more questions... How does one attain samadhi without developing the jhanas? How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. Thanks for your help! --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Not everyone can attain jhana. People can develop > vipassana and attain > enlightenment without having developed jhana; they > are called dry insight > workers, sukkha vipassaka. See Human Types, puggala > paññatti, of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. > When they attain enlightenment, the lokuttara citta > is accompanied by > samadhi which has become strong. As insight > develops, also concentration and > calm develop by conditions. You do not have to try > to be concentrated. > D: And what do you mean by nibbana being an object? > N: Nibbana is the object of lokuttara citta. > Lokuttara citta is accompanied > by lokuttara paññaa and also, by conditions, by > samadhi which is lokuttara > and of a high degree. It has the degree of the first > jhana, but the object > is not a meditation subject of samatha; instead, the > object is nibbana. > Nina. 40819 From: connieparker Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 1:48pm Subject: Re: patience, courage and good cheer Hi, All, Thank you for the added thoughts on the last snippets, Nina. The following are some that I thought might interest someone I'd been talking with about death. *** S: Before becoming Khun Nina, what was there? N: Another life. S: Yeah. From the day you were born and then you had everything from childhood up to now, if it's time to lose, it's exactly the same like from before when you were not born as Khun Nina, so you did not lose anything at all. It is vipaka citta and cetasika that are reborn/conditioned. When we're thinking, it's not the dying consciousness. Everything goes away, all the time. My worry is only nama. *** Last I looked, the mp3's were still at: www.dhammastudygroup.org peace, connie 40820 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence/Tep and Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Dear Tep and Nina, > > Tep, thank you for your mention of samadhi nimitta which prompted > Nina to mention some suttas in the Book of Tens and the Samyutta > Nikaya. There are different forms of meditation - not all done while > sitting with breath as the object. > Nina - you mention writing something on Beginners and Progress. I > would very much like to see you do this, and would find it > beneficial. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi Chris - > > > > Before starting to write this mail, I read your message twice. A > question > > came to my mind about what conditions (paccaya) we must keep > > throughout each day such that "great interest, strong enthusiam, > > confidence, contentment in the practice" can be maintained. > > > > Then I recalled a sutta I had read long ago. It says that the monk > can > > be steady in the progress toward Nibbana when he keeps a "samadhi > > nimitta" in the morning, in the evening, and at night. I am not > sure what it > > may mean to most people who don't do meditation. > > > > > > Warmest regards, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ======== Dear Chris - Nina's clear comprehension of the Dhamma and her prompt reply to the mails on various topics of discussion here are amazing! Yes, it is very good that she has explained about the different types of meditation and recently about "jhanas" as well. I have found all this very helpful too. Warm regards, Tep ============ 40821 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 9:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/9/05 2:27:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "That's a good analysis for concepts that reference actual > existence, such as hardness. But it isn't sufficient for concepts of > such things as cars, tables, and trees." > > Hi Howard, > > For cars, tables, and trees we are talking about a name that > encompasses many realities. The falsity of the equation still holds; > the name car does not equal the many rupas that that name is supposed > to represent. I think the sense of permanence has as much to do with > memory as concept and belief manipulates these concepts into what we > want. More abstract concepts such as mathematics or philosophy are > harder to sort out but I think ultimately there is a reality in the > meaning though the belief may be false. Take a purple elephant. The > name "elephant" encompasses many realities and purple is a reality > but the belief "all elephants are purple" is clearly false on many > levels. Thinking about these things isn't satipatthana and could > possibly be categorized as manipulating beliefs which is a more > complex order of concept where the meaning is also a name; plus > attachment is the underlying motif belief. > > Larry > > ====================== What I meant was that, indeed, a mental or verbal identification of a hardness is not the hardness experienced, but that hardness exists. On the other hand, a mental or verbal identification of a tree is not only not "the experienced tree", but, in fact, there really isn't an experienced tree. That is the difference. In your terms, the meaning of "a tree" is not real, whereas the meaning of a hardness is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40822 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas David, Kel: Let me add to this discussion by offering some definitions which might help clear up some points or not. :) > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > jhanas? Kel: Jhanic concentration can be separated into: access and absorption. They have the same characteristics, cetasikas. Absorption is what allows one to stay immersed because the mind is completely steady on a particular object, hence results in a really really long vithi. Access concentration is what gives you entry to absorption state, hence the name. So one could develop samadhi that is the level of jhana and keep it at access without going into absorption. Proponents of satipatthana method put forth momentary concentration as equivalent in quality to access concentration. The big difference is in momentary concentration the object does and necessarily changes from one moment to the next. However, the mind is like a shadow to the changing object and move together without any gaps. Instead of practicing in distinct steps, one cultivate samadhi and panna together. By definition in Abhidhamma, magga citta has to be at least first jhana quality. Momentary concentration argument says it is the same quality, just the treatment of the object is different compared to samantha or jhanic based method. > How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha > described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If > something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has > no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be > saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. Kel: This is always a tricky point. Nibbana is a real object or else our mind can't advert to it. It is just not of the mundane world hence it's not conditioned like phenomena are. Magga/Phala cittas have nibbana as the object when they occur. Only the first time one experiences nibbana is called magga and subsequent times are called phala, they're basically the same. If you look at the enlightenment vithi, there's a preceding citta that is in-between mundane and supramundane. It is said to act as a bridge for one's liberation and discovers nibbana. So in a sense, nibbana is always there. Once our minds are pure enough, we'll find nibbana and it's not like the mind caused it to arise. - kel 40823 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/9/05 3:17:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > Bodysense itself is all over the body, it is the bodydoor through which can > be experienced: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. Nothing > more than that. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, those are the loci for bodysense. ------------------------------------ We can think of balance, nausea, etc. but what are they?> > That is the question. They are situations, stories, not dhammas with > characteristics that can be directly experienced. ----------------------------------- Howard: Imbalance, dizziness, and nausea are all bodily sensations. Each is a rupa or sequence of body-door rupas. They aren't just stories. They vcan be and are directly experienced. ---------------------------------- > Howard, your remark about having difficulty to understand the rupas > nutrition and life faculty made me reflect a little more. I do not know > whether you find this meaningful. > When we compare a corpse and a living body there is something in a living > body not found in a corpse. That is life faculty. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Not as far as I'm concerned. There are many things missing in a corpse, most especially functioning of various sorts. There is no blood circulation, no breathing, no heart beat, no brain function, no renewing of heat, no replacement of tissue, etc Life faculty, as far as I know, is not something to be found even in a living body. ---------------------------------------- Life faculty is together> > with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I understand that you believe that, Nina. But I have no idea why. -------------------------------------- Thus, together with> > eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, so that we can receive > vipaka, such as seeing, hearing, which are results of kamma. A corpse is > like a log of wood. No life faculty. > Nutritive essence is like a lifesap that permeates the whole body when one > has eaten food. A corpse does not have this. It is only in a living body.> > ----------------------------------- Howard: As far as I know, neither do I. ------------------------------------ Ledi Sayadaw uses some similes (on p. 16), under rupas. Jivita rupa keeps> > the rupas produced by kamma fresh, just as the water in a pond preserves the > lotus therein and prevents it from decay. Nutrition is water that resides in the earth or falls from the sky, nourishes trees or > plants or mainly promotes their growth or helps them to fecundate, develop > and last long> so also nutrition supports the other rupas. > Then there are the rupas lightness, pliancy and adaptability, that condition > suppleness. These originate from temperature, nutrition and citta. They are > only in a living body, not in a corpse. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: It seems to me that all this business is just primitive biology. (Sorry) ------------------------------------------ > Just a few thoughts, > Nina. > op 09-01-2005 14:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >====================== > >Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? (As do > >all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to tingling, to > >sensations for which we have no names.) > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40824 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/9/05 3:28:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > > Hi Howard, > No Howard, you answered very well about the different senses. You formulated > it well. > Nina. > ======================= Thank you for the kind words, Nina. Unfortunately you will be less pleased with what I have to say in my just-sent reply to your post involving balance, nausea, life force and nutriment! Ah, well, I can't win them all!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40825 From: Matthew Miller Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Nina van Gorkom wrote: > When we compare a corpse and a living body there is > something in a living body not found in a corpse. That > is life faculty. Life faculty is together with the rupas > of the body that are produced by kamma. Thus, together with > eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, so that > we can receive vipaka, such as seeing, hearing, which > are results of kamma. A corpse is > like a log of wood. No life faculty. I'm in agreement with Howard here (I think). If I "compare" myself to a corpse, this is not a direct experience, it is a "story" or "situation" -- samutti. Furthermore, I have no idea what a corpse experiences. I assume that it lacks experiences that I have, but this is just speculation. I don't really know what it feels like to be a corpse. > Nutritive essence is like a lifesap that permeates the whole body > when one has eaten food. A corpse does not have this. It is only in > a living body... Nutrition is like the element of > water that resides in the earth or falls from the sky, nourishes > trees or plants or mainly promotes their growth or helps them to > fecundate, develop and last long so also nutrition supports the > other rupas. Again, I agree with Howard. Aren't we just talking about ideas ("stories") from physics here? Albeit this is the physics of India circa 500 B.C., when most people saw the human body in terms of "elements" like fire, earth, air, and water (or, in the Chinese scheme, Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water). This all seems conventional (samutti) to me. btw, these are good examples of some of the more easily deconstructible paramattha/samutti dualities. Matthew 40826 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Howard: "What I meant was that, indeed, a mental or verbal identification of a hardness is not the hardness experienced, but that hardness exists. On the other hand, a mental or verbal identification of a tree is not only not "the experienced tree", but, in fact, there really isn't an experienced tree. That is the difference. In your terms, the meaning of "a tree" is not real, whereas the meaning of a hardness is." Hi Howard, What I meant is that all meanings are real. The meaning of "person" is the 5 khandhas, the meaning of "tree" is all the various rupas that go into making a tree. Even fanciful words like "permanent", "self", or "generality", have real meanings. Where we get in trouble is in the beliefs we construct out of them. If words didn't have real meanings they wouldn't make sense. To make sense means to make real by pointing to realities. Larry 40827 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Dave, > op 08-01-2005 17:11 schreef David Cosentino op dharmabum253@y...: > > > > What do you mean by "for > > someone > > who has not developed jhana, lokuttara citta is > > accompanied by samadhi > > that > > has the strength of the concentration of the first > > jhana." > N: Not everyone can attain jhana. People can develop vipassana and attain > enlightenment without having developed jhana; they are called dry insight > workers, sukkha vipassaka. See Human Types, puggala paññatti, of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. > When they attain enlightenment, the lokuttara citta is accompanied by > samadhi which has become strong. As insight develops, also concentration and > calm develop by conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. > D: And what do you mean by nibbana being an object? > N: Nibbana is the object of lokuttara citta. Lokuttara citta is accompanied > by lokuttara paññaa and also, by conditions, by samadhi which is lokuttara > and of a high degree. It has the degree of the first jhana, but the object > is not a meditation subject of samatha; instead, the object is nibbana. > Nina. ----------------------------------- Dear Nina (and David) - Please allow me to ask a number of questions, although you have been already very busy answering several questions form the Forum. In your message #40797 (as shown above) you mentioned that "dry insight" workers (sukkha vipassaka) could attain "enlightenment" without a jhana as a requisite. In the previous posts you kindly explained that samadhi could be developed without samatha-bhavana (e.g. through Buddhanussati). N: When they (the dry insighters) attain enlightenment, the lokuttara citta is accompanied by samadhi which has become strong. Lokuttara citta is accompanied by lokuttara panna and also, by conditions, by samadhi which is lokuttara and of a high degree. It has the degree of the first jhana, but the object is not a meditation subject of samatha; instead, the object is nibbana. T: Is mind with "enlightenment" the same as an arisen lokuttara citta that takes Nibbana as its "object"? But how does one take Nibbana as the mind object such that a lokuttara citta may arise? Is such mind action a direct citta experience without conceptualization or pannatti?Is the lokuttara panna, which accompanies the lokuttara citta, the same as a magga-nana? N: As insight develops, also concentration and calm develop by conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. T: I understand that concentration (samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) are two factors of the 7 factors of awakening (bojjhanga), which are developed "dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on dispassion(viraga), dependent on cessation(nirodha), resulting in letting go(patinissagga)" [SN LIV.2]. The seclusion, and anupassana on dispassion and cessation are not easy for most worldlings to do. In addition, the bojjhanga factors are at the higher level than both samatha bhavana (e.g. the anapanasati bhavana) and the four foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), according to SN LIV.13, Ananda Sutta. But your statement above makes the development of the two bojjhanga factors sounds so easy. Thank you in advance for your help. If similar questions exist and have been answered, then please just show me where I can find those answers. Kindest regards, Tep ======== 40828 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Htoo's request-Mike's reply-Htoo's response- and now.. Tep suggested here_ Hi Htoo, Mike and Nina - I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in sankhara khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by the Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, so how come vasana still does? I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you think? Kindest regards, Tep ============= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Mike, Nina and All, I think 'sankhara' the term plays a central role in this whole matter. I use 3 sankharas for D.O. They are apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi- sankhara and aanenjabhi-sankhara. Other use 'kaya-sankhara', 'vaci-sankhara', and 'mano-sankhara'. In my classification 1.apunnabhisankhara is akusala cittas serving as javana cittas or mental impulsion when akusala dhammas are being created. This includes creation at kaya-dvara (so kaya-sankhara is already included0, at vaci-dvara (so vaci-sankhara is already included0 and at mano-dvara (so mano-sankhara is alreadu included). Arahats do not do any of these apunnabhi-sankhara. 2.punnabhi-sankhara is kusala cittas serving as javana cittas or mental impulsion when kusala dhammas are being created. This includes creation at kaya-dvara, vaci-dvara, and mano-dvara. Arahats do not do any of these punnabhi-sankhara. When they do offering mahakiriya javana cittas arise. These are not kusala dhamma. These are abyakata dhamma. So arahats do not do punnabhi-sankhara. 3.aanenjabhi-sankhara is rupakusala and arupakusala while punnabhi- sankhara is kama kusala. Aanejabhi-sankhara is rupakusala or arupakusala serving as javana cittas when rupa jhanas or arupa jhanas are respectively being developed. This involves kamma creation at mano-dvara only. Arahats do not do any of these rupakusala and arupakusala dhamma, which are aanenjabhi-sankhara. When in rupa jhana or in arupa jhana, arahats are being developing rupakiriya or arupakiriya cittas. These cittas are not creating any kamma. They are abyakata dhamma. When the classification of 'kaya-sankhara, vaci-sankhara, and mano- sankhara' is used it will not be clear to some people. Arahats do not do any of 3 sankharas (apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi- sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara). But arahats do kaya action, vaci action and mano action. Arahats are still living and they are not in nibbana yet. So they are just congregation of 5 khandhas. Among them sankhara.kkhandha is one. When they move, walk, eat, give, they are doing kaya-sankhara. But they are not doing any of apunnabhi-, punnabhi-, aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they do kaya-sankhara. When they speak, tell someone something, groan, they are doing vaci- sankhara. But they do not do any of apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi- sankhara and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they do speak. They do preach dhamma and they do teach lay people whenever opportunity arises. They are doing vaci- sankhara. But not of any of three sankhara of apunnabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. When they are thinking or planning to take a trip to go and meet The Buddha, their thinking is mano-sankhara. But they are not doing apunnabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they still do mano-sankhara. When they are in rupa jhana or arupa jhana, they are creating mano- sankhara. But they are not doing any of apuunabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they are still doing mano-sankhara. I do hope this whole message is clear to you and all. The reason why I stick to sankhara of D.O to 'apunnabhi, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi- sankhara' is to avoid unlarity and ambiguity. Because of sankhara.kkhandha [example cetana leading to speaking], arahats do speak. But they continue to speak fast if they used to speak fast and they continue to speak slowly if they used to speak slowly. This is not changed after attainment of arahatta magga nana. The Buddha is the only satta who completely eradicate vasana or habit. Even Moggallana, Sariputta and all great arahats could not eradicate their habit as they are used to their habit. That habit is linked with sankhara. But this sankhara is sankhara.kkhandha. Not sankhara of D.O. Yes, arahats do not have defilements. So they do not have avijja. As there is no avijja there is no sankhara. This sankhara means 'apunnabhi-sankhara' or 'punnabhi-sankhara' or 'aanenjabhi- sankhara'. This sankhara does not mean 'sankhara.kkhandha'. That is why I accepted Mike's suggestion that habit or vasana is sankhara. Actually it is not equation. That is 'it is wrong to say 'vasana = sankhara'. But vasana is just pannatti but it is linked with sankhara. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40829 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi, Kelvin - I really like your answers to David. Coincidentally, some of my questions to Nina fall along the same direction as David's. Would you be kind enough to read those questions of mine in #40827 and tell me what you think? This is just asking for a second opinion. Thank you very much. Kindest regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > David, > > Kel: Let me add to this discussion by offering some definitions > which might help clear up some points or not. :) > > > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > > jhanas? > Kel: Jhanic concentration can be separated into: access and > absorption. They have the same characteristics, cetasikas. > Absorption is what allows one to stay immersed because the mind is > completely steady on a particular object, hence results in a really > really long vithi. Access concentration is what gives you entry to > absorption state, hence the name. So one could develop samadhi that > is the level of jhana and keep it at access without going into > absorption. > Proponents of satipatthana method put forth momentary concentration > as equivalent in quality to access concentration. The big difference > is in momentary concentration the object does and necessarily changes > from one moment to the next. However, the mind is like a shadow to > the changing object and move together without any gaps. Instead of > practicing in distinct steps, one cultivate samadhi and panna > together. By definition in Abhidhamma, magga citta has to be at least > first jhana quality. Momentary concentration argument says it is the > same quality, just the treatment of the object is different compared > to samantha or jhanic based method. > > > How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > > experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha > > described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If > > something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has > > no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be > > saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. > Kel: This is always a tricky point. Nibbana is a real object or > else our mind can't advert to it. It is just not of the mundane world > hence it's not conditioned like phenomena are. Magga/Phala cittas > have nibbana as the object when they occur. Only the first time one > experiences nibbana is called magga and subsequent times are called > phala, they're basically the same. If you look at the enlightenment > vithi, there's a preceding citta that is in-between mundane and > supramundane. It is said to act as a bridge for one's liberation and > discovers nibbana. So in a sense, nibbana is always there. Once our > minds are pure enough, we'll find nibbana and it's not like the mind > caused it to arise. > > - kel 40830 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Compassion .. Idiot Compassion .. Conspicuous Compassion --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine and rob K, > op 09-01-2005 04:30 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Once the Buddha was addressing the monks during the Patimokkha and > > he observed that one of the monks was full of evil wishes. He > > stopped the recitation and asked the monk to leave. But the monk > > stayed where he was, until Moggallana forcefully took hold of his > > arm and removed him from the assembly. All done with compassion. > N: Yes, we have to consider what the Buddha said when monks were harming > each other. He would also speak sternly. Read the Vinaya. He would say: you > foolish monk... > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Robert K and All, This is like patting of pot by pot-maker at pottery. With respect, Htoo Naing 40831 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: right effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi All, > > > something "I can do" or should be able to do. Even when > > we make the conventional effort, the result would depend on the > viriya > > (and other conditions), not the self we are used to thinking of > as > > "doing". Until viriya has developed to the point where it is one > of the > > bala or powers, it is only natural that there would be some > > discouragement, I think. > > > > "Effort" is another example of where the English translation > doesn't quite > > work. To just say 'effort' doesn't really say anything about > viriya's > > function as "the effort and perseverance in taking note, > examining, > > knowing the characteristics of naamadhamma and ruupadhamma > appearing. > > (Sammohavinodani, the commentary of Vibha"ngapakara.na > > Iddhipaadavibha"nganiddesa)" [SPD] and we can lose the sense of it > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6e.htm is a good exposition on > the role of viriya and what it means to be indriya. It makes a > difference between bodily viriya and mental factor viriya. > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6f.htm is on the meaning of > balas. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Thanks for your link. There are 5 indriyas. The fifth indriya is 'pannindriya'. It is panna. But it is not pannadriya. With many thanks, Htoo Naing 40832 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > David, > > Kel: Let me add to this discussion by offering some definitions > which might help clear up some points or not. :) > > > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > > jhanas? > Kel: Jhanic concentration can be separated into: access and > absorption. They have the same characteristics, cetasikas. > Absorption is what allows one to stay immersed because the mind is > completely steady on a particular object, hence results in a really > really long vithi. Access concentration is what gives you entry to > absorption state, hence the name. So one could develop samadhi that > is the level of jhana and keep it at access without going into > absorption. > Proponents of satipatthana method put forth momentary concentration > as equivalent in quality to access concentration. The big difference > is in momentary concentration the object does and necessarily changes > from one moment to the next. However, the mind is like a shadow to > the changing object and move together without any gaps. Instead of > practicing in distinct steps, one cultivate samadhi and panna > together. By definition in Abhidhamma, magga citta has to be at least > first jhana quality. Momentary concentration argument says it is the > same quality, just the treatment of the object is different compared > to samantha or jhanic based method. > > > How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > > experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha > > described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If > > something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has > > no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be > > saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. > Kel: This is always a tricky point. Nibbana is a real object or > else our mind can't advert to it. It is just not of the mundane world > hence it's not conditioned like phenomena are. Magga/Phala cittas > have nibbana as the object when they occur. Only the first time one > experiences nibbana is called magga and subsequent times are called > phala, they're basically the same. If you look at the enlightenment > vithi, there's a preceding citta that is in-between mundane and > supramundane. It is said to act as a bridge for one's liberation and > discovers nibbana. So in a sense, nibbana is always there. Once our > minds are pure enough, we'll find nibbana and it's not like the mind > caused it to arise. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Thanks for your explanation to David. I like your word '1st jhana quality'. In my Dhamma Thread whenever I reach lokuttara jhana cittas I say very cleary that 'when lokuttara cittas arise in the vicinity of rupa jhana or arupa jhana they are called lokuttara jhana cittas and there are 40 lokuttara jhana cittas as there are 5 stages of jhana [all arupa jhanas can be counted as 5th jhana as there are only upekkha and ekaggata as jhana factors in arupa jhana]. Rapavacara jhanas and arupavacara jhanas are not lokuttara cittas. They cannot take lokuttara object that is they cannot take nibbana as object as long as they take their own object of pannatti (all rupa jhanas and akasananca-ayatana arupa jhana and akincanna-ayatana arupa jhana) or mahaggata object in case of vinnananca-ayatana arupa jhana and n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupa jhana. So 1st rupa jhana 2nd rupa jhana 3rd rupa jhana 4th rupa jhana 1st arupa jhana [or akasananca-ayatana arupa jhana] 2nd arupa jhana [or vinnananca-ayatana arupa jhana] 3rd arupa jhana [or akincanna-ayatana arupa jhana] 4th arupa jhana [or n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupa jhana] cannot take nibbana as their object when they are taking their own object of pannatti or mahaggata. No citta can take 2 object at the same time. Samadhi Sutta may say these are samma-samadhi. This is right. But if these are still rupavacara and arupavacara cittas they can never be lokuttara cittas. If suttas are very closely learned there will find that ..away from hindrances and enter into 1st jhana, emerge from it and enter into 2nd jhana, emerge from it and enter into 3rd jhana, emerge from it and enter into 4th jhana, emerge from it and enter into 1st arupa jhana, emerge from it and enter into 2nd arupa jhana, emerge from it and enter into 3rd arupa jhana, emerge from it and enter into 4th arupa jhana or n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupa jhana..This is samma-samadhi. Actually all 9 states are equal in terms of liberation from nivarana dhamma. 1. khanika samadhi 2. 1st jhana appana samadhi or 1st jhana 3. 2nd jhana appana samadhi or 2nd jhana 4. 3rd jhana appana samadhi or 3rd jhana 5. 4th jhana appana samadhi or 4th jhana 6. 1st arupa jhana appana samadhi or 1st arupa jhana 7. 2nd arupa jhana appana samadhi or 2nd arupa jhana 8. 3rd arupa jhana appana samadhi or 3rd arupa jhana 9. 4th arupa jhana appana samadhi or 4th arupa jhana or NPNNP No sutta say samma-samadhi must be 'AT LEAST' 1st jhana. But as you [Kel] said it is 1st jhana quality. When khanika samadhi is achieved this means that golden key has been obtained and it is quite ready to enter 1st jhana and higher and higher jhana. That is why it is said 'access concentration'. This samadhi has access to appana samadhi or jhana absorption. But unlike appana samadhi it is flexible and movable and can well cognize 'ANICCA, DUKKHA, ANATTA'. Appana means 'very close'. Citta is so close to its object that there is no gap between them or they are fused that is citta is absorbed into object or object is absorbed by citta. When this happen these JHANA CITTAS cannot see any 'MARK of ANICCA, DUKKHA, ANATTA. And so they will not see NIBBANA as long as they are absorbed in their object. Actually this whole reply post answers 'whether appana jhana is necessary or not for attainment of magga nanas'. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Last night I was fully conscious to my breath for a full hour. There was no hindrances at all. But I was not absorbed in that session of meditation. 40833 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:00pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Hi, Htoo - I appreciate reading your reply to a previous question about habit or vasana. H: Arahats do not do any of 3 sankharas (apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi-sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara). But arahats do kaya action, vaci action and mano action. Arahats are still living and they are not in nibbana yet. So they are just congregation of 5 khandhas. Among them sankhara.kkhandha is one. T: I do understand the difference between the first set (apunnabhi- sankhara, punnabhi-sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara) and the second set (kaya action, vaci action and mano action), but it is not clear how habit (vasana) belongs to the second set. I am sorry. H: When they are in rupa jhana or arupa jhana, they are creating mano- sankhara. But they are not doing any of apuunabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they are still doing mano-sankhara. I do hope this whole message is clear to you and all. The reason why I stick to sankhara of D.O to 'apunnabhi, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi- sankhara' is to avoid unlarity and ambiguity. ...Because of sankhara.kkhandha [example cetana leading to speaking], arahats do speak. But they continue to speak fast if they used to speak fast and they continue to speak slowly if they used to speak slowly. This is not changed after attainment of arahatta magga nana. T: Yes, thank you for taking an effort explaining that the first set is indeed different from the second set; yes, it is extremely clear that the two are different. However, still it is not clear why vasana belongs to the sankhara.kkhandha, not sanna khandha or anything else. Is this simply because habit manifest through the three actions? But there also are several things that relate to the three actions, e.g. memories, understanding, and so on, and they do not belong to sankhara khandha. And they do fall away, while vasana does not. Why? H: That habit is linked with sankhara. But this sankhara is sankhara.kkhandha. Not sankhara of D.O. ... That is 'it is wrong to say 'vasana = sankhara'. But vasana is just pannatti but it is linked with sankhara. T: I agree with you that the second set of sankhara (kaya action, vaci action and mano action) is different from the sankhara of D.O. But why must vasana be just a pannatti that links with sankhara, not a pannatti that links to sanna khandha? Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, Mike, Nina and All, > > I think 'sankhara' the term plays a central role in this whole matter. > > I use 3 sankharas for D.O. They are apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi- > sankhara and aanenjabhi-sankhara. > > Other use 'kaya-sankhara', 'vaci-sankhara', and 'mano-sankhara'. > > In my classification > > That habit is linked with sankhara. But this sankhara is > sankhara.kkhandha. Not sankhara of D.O. > > Yes, arahats do not have defilements. So they do not have avijja. As > there is no avijja there is no sankhara. This sankhara > means 'apunnabhi-sankhara' or 'punnabhi-sankhara' or 'aanenjabhi- > sankhara'. This sankhara does not mean 'sankhara.kkhandha'. > > That is why I accepted Mike's suggestion that habit or vasana is > sankhara. Actually it is not equation. > > That is 'it is wrong to say 'vasana = sankhara'. But vasana is just > pannatti but it is linked with sankhara. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 40834 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Tep, Happy to reply with what I know. > T: explained that samadhi could be developed without samatha-bhavana > (e.g. through Buddhanussati). Kel: Again a little bit of definition will help here I think. Samatha-bhavana refers to tranquility or calm based methods. All 40 objects of meditation (including Buddhanussati) falls under samatha. They can also fall under vipassana, just depends on how one practice it. Let me take a technique you mention later, anapanasati to illustrate it's not the object but the way you practice that makes it one or another. Anapana starts by noting incoming breath and outgoing breath. This part is used for calming the mind and learning how to focus, samatha. For jhanas, one keep doing that, cultivating concentration by just keeping the mind on the breath. There's no investigation or understanding of underlying phenomena. Some traditions start to dissect each breath by noting the beginning, middle and end. This basically allows one to see arising/passing away of physical activity, breath so it falls under kayanupassana. There it transitioned from samatha to vipassana before arriving at jhana(absorption). Yet other traditions use breath to not note the breath itself but the sensations that appears along with the breath. This would fall under dhatu-based method or vedanupassana. Again you can utilize breath to extend to cittanupassana or dhammanupassana but it's a harder transition. Basically, using the same object one can be doing samatha or vipassana. Sidenote: you can attain jhana using any of the 40 objects, though the highest obtainable jhana is different. > T: Is mind with "enlightenment" the same as an arisen lokuttara > citta that takes Nibbana as its "object"? yes > T: But how does one take Nibbana as the > mind object such that a lokuttara citta may arise? Is such mind action a > direct citta experience without conceptualization or pannatti? Kel: Nibbana isn't one of the 40 objects one can take as subject/object of meditation. Now this is why lokuttara citta won't appear while practicing samatha alone. One needs to be contemplating anicca, dukkha or anatta for it to arise. Everyone needs to transition to vipassana with or without jhana to achieve enlightenment. While meditating on the three signs of any of objects, the lokuttara citta with nibbana as the object arises. > T:Is the lokuttara panna, which accompanies the lokuttara citta, > the same as a magga-nana? Kel: yup. The same lokuttara panna is also named phala-nana. It essentially refers to the time when one isn't striving for further enlightenment but just enjoying what one has already achieved. Again phala-nana will have nibbana as the object. Only once (one citta) in one's infinite rounds in samsara, will one experience this so-called magga-nana. As you know there's 4 maggas so it's only 4 cittas total out of infinite that is considered magga-nana. One can of course enjoy and dwell in phala-nana as many times as one wants (provided one is skilled at it). For example anagamis can only enjoy anagami-phala, not the lower ones and obviously not the higher. > N: As insight develops, also concentration and calm develop by > conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. > > T: I understand that concentration (samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) are > two factors of the 7 factors of awakening (bojjhanga), which are > developed "dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on > dispassion(viraga), dependent on cessation(nirodha), resulting in > letting go(patinissagga)" [SN LIV.2]. The seclusion, and anupassana > on dispassion and cessation are not easy for most worldlings to do. In > addition, the bojjhanga factors are at the higher level than both > samatha bhavana (e.g. the anapanasati bhavana) and the four > foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), according to SN LIV.13, > Ananda Sutta. But your statement above makes the development of > the two bojjhanga factors sounds so easy. Kel: This goes back to the function of indriyas. They're rulers in not only being able to win over opposites, but they bring forth with them their army/allies: other indriyas and mental factors that are conducive to enlightenment. (notice the mutual relation of one indriya with each other) So if one is riding the panna-vehicle then concentration and calm will and should be developed. Btw, once one master samadhi and use it as a vehicle, they don't have to try hard to concentrate either. In fact, one monk said if at all you're straining or trying to get concentration, it definitely isn't samma samadhi. I find it helpful to re-examine the way I'm practicing to see if lobha has creeped in to make me tense by trying too hard. I'll give some example of the type of meditation that uses different indriyas. satipatthana - satindriya (big surprise) samatha - samadhindriya vipassana - pannindriya (in general) buddhanussati - saddhindriya no sleep - viriyindriya Doesn't mean you can forget about the others. You need a balance of all five but there is an idea of one leading the way and this very much depends on the person's disposition/habit. By using any of the 5, one needs to develop it to Bojjhanga quality. So once you achieve it everything is there nice and balanced :) Good luck to all of us. - kel 40835 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:26pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Tep wrote: Hi, Htoo - I appreciate reading your reply to a previous question about habit or vasana. >H: Arahats do not do any of 3 sankharas (apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi-sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara). But arahats do kaya action, vaci action and mano action. Arahats are still living and they are not in nibbana yet. So they are just congregation of 5 khandhas. Among them sankhara.kkhandha is one. T: I do understand the difference between the first set (apunnabhi- sankhara, punnabhi-sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara) and the second set (kaya action, vaci action and mano action), but it is not clear how habit (vasana) belongs to the second set. I am sorry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Vasana is not sankhara. I already said in my reply. When we search for vasana we cannot find vasana. You may remember when water is searched there is no water at all. Water is pannatti. When vasana cannot be searched as an ultimate reality then it is not an ultimate reality. Belong to is not that right, I think. I just meant 'just linkage'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: When they are in rupa jhana or arupa jhana, they are creating mano-sankhara. But they are not doing any of apuunabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they are still doing mano-sankhara. I do hope this whole message is clear to you and all. The reason why I stick to sankhara of D.O to 'apunnabhi, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi- sankhara' is to avoid unlarity and ambiguity. ...Because of sankhara.kkhandha [example cetana leading to speaking], arahats do speak. But they continue to speak fast if they used to speak fast and they continue to speak slowly if they used to speak slowly. This is not changed after attainment of arahatta magga nana. Tep wrote: T: Yes, thank you for taking an effort explaining that the first set is indeed different from the second set; yes, it is extremely clear that the two are different. However, still it is not clear why vasana belongs to the sankhara.kkhandha, not sanna khandha or anything else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have explained above. Please try to search 'vasana' as an ultimate reality. You would not find it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: Is this simply because habit manifest through the three actions? But there also are several things that relate to the three actions, e.g. memories, understanding, and so on, and they do not belong to sankhara khandha. And they do fall away, while vasana does not. Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If fall away, that fall away is conditioned dhamma and ultimate reality of sankhata dhamma. Vasana does not fall away because there is no 'vasana' as an ultimate reality. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: That habit is linked with sankhara. But this sankhara is sankhara.kkhandha. Not sankhara of D.O. ... That is 'it is wrong to say 'vasana = sankhara'. But vasana is just pannatti but it is linked with sankhara. Tep wrote: T: I agree with you that the second set of sankhara (kaya action, vaci action and mano action) is different from the sankhara of D.O. But why must vasana be just a pannatti that links with sankhara, not a pannatti that links to sanna khandha? Kind regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What recognise 'vasana' is sanna while 'vasana' itself is not a sanna. You recognise someone's typical style of walking. Even when light available is very dim you can still recognise that person through his or her typical style of walking. There is no 'you' but I use 'you' for communication. When you recognize that person through her typical walking style you recognise her 'vasana'. Again when you search for her 'vasana' you will not find it. Because it does not exist. Vasana is pannatti. What you see is her shape, her form, brightness-darkness of light and colour. And you will never see her vasana at all. I hope this reply works for you. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40836 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > So, do you think that visual objects, or sights, are a matter of > convention? When we open our eyes and look, is the sight a matter of convention? (I > don't mean how we then cognize it by means of cutting it up into regions and > conventional objects. I mean just the very brief, unembellished sight.) > BTW, I shouldn't really be the person "defending" Abhidhamma. I, > myself, have a few "problems" with it. More importantly, I know very little of it. > I would welcome other, more knowledgeable, folks joining in on this > conversation. Dear Howard, I think you're doing a pretty good job by yourself already. Robert 40837 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:53pm Subject: Re: jhanas Kel wrote: Hi Tep, Happy to reply with what I know. Tep's old post: > > T: explained that samadhi could be developed without samatha- bhavana > > (e.g. through Buddhanussati). Kel wrote: Kel: Again a little bit of definition will help here I think. Samatha-bhavana refers to tranquility or calm based methods. All 40 objects of meditation (including Buddhanussati) falls under samatha. They can also fall under vipassana, just depends on how one practice it. Let me take a technique you mention later, anapanasati to illustrate it's not the object but the way you practice that makes it one or another. Anapana starts by noting incoming breath and outgoing breath. Thispart is used for calming the mind and learning how to focus, samatha. For jhanas, one keep doing that, cultivating concentration by justkeeping the mind on the breath. There's no investigation or understanding of underlying phenomena. Some traditions start to dissect each breath by noting the beginning, middle and end. This basically allows one to see arising/passing away of physical activity, breath so it falls under kayanupassana. There it transitioned from samatha to vipassana before arriving at jhana(absorption). Yet other traditions use breath to not note the breath itself but the sensations that appears along with the breath. This would fall under dhatu-based method or vedanupassana. Again you can utilize breath to extend to cittanupassana or dhammanupassana but it's a harder transition. Basically, using the same object one can be doing samatha or vipassana. Sidenote: you can attain jhana using any of the 40 objects, though the highest obtainable jhana is different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Kel, sorry if I am butting in between you and Tep. But above you said 'you can attain jhana using any of the 40 objects, though the highest obtainable jhana is different'. I think, you should be specific to say above sentence. 10 of 40 objects cannot directly give rise to appana jhana level. They are 1. Buddhanussati 2. Dhammanussati 3. Sanghanussati 4. Silanussati 5. Caganussati 6. Devatanussati 7. Upasamanussati 8. Marananussati 9. Aharepatikulasanna 10.Catudhatuvavatthana But all 40 can give rise to upacara samadhi or khanika samadhi. Not appana samadhi. If you label upacara samadhi or khanika samadhi as jhana then you are right. If not the above 10 object cannot give rise to absorption level. Because those objects are all complex and very complicated object. With Metta, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's old post: > > T: Is mind with "enlightenment" the same as an arisen lokuttara > > citta that takes Nibbana as its "object"? Kel answered: yes > > T: But how does one take Nibbana as the > > mind object such that a lokuttara citta may arise? Is such mind > action a > > direct citta experience without conceptualization or pannatti? > Kel: Nibbana isn't one of the 40 objects one can take as > subject/object of meditation. Now this is why lokuttara citta won't > appear while practicing samatha alone. One needs to be contemplating > anicca, dukkha or anatta for it to arise. Everyone needs to > transition to vipassana with or without jhana to achieve > enlightenment. While meditating on the three signs of any of objects, > the lokuttara citta with nibbana as the object arises. > > > T:Is the lokuttara panna, which accompanies the lokuttara citta, > > the same as a magga-nana? Kel: yup. The same lokuttara panna is also named phala-nana. It essentially refers to the time when one isn't striving for further enlightenment but just enjoying what one has already achieved. Again phala-nana will have nibbana as the object. Only once (one citta) in one's infinite rounds in samsara, will one experience this so-called magga-nana. As you know there's 4 maggas so it's only 4 cittas total out of infinite that is considered magga-nana. One can of course enjoy and dwell in phala-nana as many times as one wants (provided one is skilled at it). For example anagamis can only enjoy anagami-phala, not the lower ones and obviously not the higher. > > N: As insight develops, also concentration and calm develop by > > conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. > > > > T: I understand that concentration (samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) are > > two factors of the 7 factors of awakening (bojjhanga), which are > > developed "dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on > > dispassion(viraga), dependent on cessation(nirodha), resulting in > > letting go(patinissagga)" [SN LIV.2]. The seclusion, and anupassana > > on dispassion and cessation are not easy for most worldlings to do. In > > addition, the bojjhanga factors are at the higher level than both > > samatha bhavana (e.g. the anapanasati bhavana) and the four > > foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), according to SN LIV.13, > > Ananda Sutta. But your statement above makes the development of > > the two bojjhanga factors sounds so easy. Kel: This goes back to the function of indriyas. They're rulers in not only being able to win over opposites, but they bring forth with them their army/allies: other indriyas and mental factors that are conducive to enlightenment. (notice the mutual relation of one indriya with each other) So if one is riding the panna-vehicle then concentration and calm will and should be developed. Btw, once one master samadhi and use it as a vehicle, they don't have to try hard to concentrate either. In fact, one monk said if at all you're straining or trying to get concentration, it definitely isn't samma samadhi. I find it helpful to re-examine the way I'm practicing to see if lobha has creeped in to make me tense by trying too hard. I'll give some example of the type of meditation that uses different indriyas. satipatthana - satindriya (big surprise) samatha - samadhindriya vipassana - pannindriya (in general) buddhanussati - saddhindriya no sleep - viriyindriya Doesn't mean you can forget about the others. You need a balance of all five but there is an idea of one leading the way and this very much depends on the person's disposition/habit. By using any of the 5, one needs to develop it to Bojjhanga quality. So once you achieve it everything is there nice and balanced :) Good luck to all of us. - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Kel, your reply to Tep is amazing, I must admit. Thanks for your clear explanation on dhamma especially on bala and indriya dhammas. With much respect, Htoo Naing 40838 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/9/05 7:08:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > What I meant is that all meanings are real. The meaning of "person" is > the 5 khandhas, the meaning of "tree" is all the various rupas that go > into making a tree. Even fanciful words like "permanent", "self", or > "generality", have real meanings. Where we get in trouble is in the > beliefs we construct out of them. If words didn't have real meanings > they wouldn't make sense. To make sense means to make real by pointing > to realities. > > Larry > ========================== But, Larry, what people mean by a tree is not a bunch of rupas. That just isn't what they mean. Moreover, there is no specific, well defined set of such rupas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40839 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (224) Dear Dhamma Friends, Panca-dvara vithi varas have been discussed in the previous posts. Regarding mano-dvara vithi vara kama javana varas have been discussed. There are 2 visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' in kama javana vara. They are vibhuta-arammana or very obvious object and avibhuta-arammana or obvious object. In avibhuta-arammana at the end of javana cittas that is after 7th javana citta there follow just bhavanaga cittas and tadarammana cittas cannot arise. This is in kama javana vithi vara. Other mano-dvara vithi varas are manodvara appana javana varas. In these appana javana varas there are only vibhuta-arammana and there is no avibhuta-arammana unlike kama javana vara. But in appana javana varas there are no tadarammana cittas. Because the realms of citta in these javana varas are not kama javana varas. Tadarammana cittas arise only in 1. kama sattas 2. kama javana vara 3. kama object [ all three in combination and all 3 must be present for tadarammana cittas to arise ]. There are many appana javana varas. They are 1. jhana vithi vara 2. magga vithi vara 3. abhinna vithi vara 4. jhana samapatti vithi vara 5. phala samapatti vithi vara 6. nirodhasamapatti vithi vara May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40840 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/9/05 9:30:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > I think you're doing a pretty good job by yourself already. > Robert > ======================= Thank you. :-) With metta, Howsrd /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40841 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Howard: "But, Larry, what people mean by a tree is not a bunch of rupas. That just isn't what they mean. Moreover, there is no specific, well defined set of such rupas." Hi Howard, Everyone means different things at different times. For "tree" most of the time I mean a specific visual data. The error is in saying this visual data is a tree, but that is a matter of belief, or failure of the equation "tree" equals all impermanent, real components (meanings) of tree. I would still say meanings are realities. Even with a word like "I" there is a real meaning. With me, when I'm not thinking about it, it is usually a bodily feeling in the area of the heart. Sometimes names are virtually meaningless. In that case it is questionable whether they are really names (intimations). Larry 40842 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:55pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (225) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many appana javana varas. They are 1. jhana vithi vara 2. magga vithi vara 3. abhinna vithi vara 4. jhana samapatti vithi vara 5. phala samapatti vithi vara 6. nirodhasamapatti vithi vara In citta portion of Dhamma Thread different jhana cittas were discussed. But they will again be discussed when kammatthana portion approaches. In this post 1st jhana will be used as an example. 1st jhana can be attained by practising any of the following 25 kammatthana or 25 bhavana objects. a) 10 kasina kammatthanas b) 10 asubha kammatthanas c) 3 of 4 brahmavihara kammatthanas d) 1 anapanassati kammatthana e) 1 kayagatasati kammatthana ----------------- 25 1st jhanaja kammatthanas Before arising of jhana vithi vara, there are kama javana vithi vara of makavacara mahakusala javana vithi vara. If the jhana practitioner is practising Odata kasina kammatthana, he will be initially looking at 'the circular circle of white object'. This object is initially rupa-arammana. Kasina means 'the whole'. So the practitioner has to look into the whole circle and his mind is evenly spread through out the whole surface of that white kasina object. This starts with panca-dvara vithi vara of cakkhudvara vithi vara. But this is alternated with manodvara vithi vara of kamavacara mahakusala javana vara. In terms of kammatthana his initial action or bhavana is called parikamma bhavana. Because that action is preparing for higher kamma that is higher bhavana kusala kamma such as jhana kusala kamma. The visual object now is called parikamma nimitta or preparatory image. Because this object which is an image used in preparation of higher bhavana kusala kamma. With a long practice the practitioner at a time becomes able to cognize the whole object at mano-dvara without the visual aid. This means that there arises another object at mano-dvara. That object is exactly the same as visual object. For example if there is a very small spot at the margin of visual object then one that appears at mano-dvara also includes that spot. Appearing of this object indicates that the samadhi at that time is not the same with that of initial stage of practice. Now that samadhi is well calm and it is called parikamma samadhi. The object is called mental image of visual object. It is called uggaha nimitta. The samadhi at this stage is preparing for higher samadhi like upacara samadhi and appana samadhi. Now all vithi varas start to be pure mano-dvara vithi varas. But all these vithi varas are kamavacara mahakusala javana vara. As usual they are intervened with bhavanga cittas. At a time there arise a similar but different image at mano-dvara. It is white circle. But unlike the initial one and its mental image one, this new object is free of any spot, any stain, and it is brilliently white and luminous and radiant. It is very beautiful. It is counter image of the mental image. It is called patibhaga nimitta. When this object arises at mano-dvara samadhi becomes much more stronger. Nivara dhamma or hindrances start to silt down when uggaha nimitta arises. But occasionally nivarana dhamma or hindrances arise. Since patibhaga nimitta arises mind becomes clear and much more calm and there is no nivarana dhamma or no hindrances at all. But the practitioner is still not in jhana or still not absorbed in the patibhaga nimitta. The samadhi which starts from arising of patibhaga nimitta up till arising of gotrabhu citta in jhana vithi vara is called upacara samadhi. The bhavana that is developing at that time is called upacara bhavana. There is no hindrances at all. At a time vitakka or initial application, vicara or sustained application, piti or joy, sukha or calmness, ekaggata or one-pointedness are working to their fullest power and the practitioner closely looks at the patibhaga nimitta and there arises a time when 1st jhana kusala citta is just going to arise for the first time. At that moment everything is ready for 1st jhana citta to arise. But as cittas are tired they lapse into bhavanga cittas for a while and then jhana vithi vara starts to arise with manodvara-avajjana citta as initial vithi citta at mano-dvara. In this jhana vithi vara the picture is like this. BBBBBBB..BBBMPUAGJBBBBBBBBBB B = bhavanga citta M = manodvara-avajjana citta P = parikamma mahakusala citta U = upacara mahakusala citta A = anuloma mahakusala citta G = gotrabhu mahakusala lineage-changing citta J = 1st rupa jhana kusala citta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40843 From: Antony Woods Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 8:31pm Subject: flashbacks and guilt Dear Sarah and Group, In the last week or so I have been using some Abhidhamma to deal with flashbacks and guilt. I note that all feelings (vedana) are conditioned by contact (phassa) which is for example the mental event where the visible object, the eye-organ and the eye-consciousness arise. How does this apply to flashbacks (horrible memories of being a perpetrator of cruelty) and guilt? Are flashbacks mind-objects or do I note them as “seeing, seeing”? I think I read in Nyanaponika’s “Abhidhamma Studies” that memories are perceptions (sanna). Does this mean that memories are perceptions occurring in the present moment rather than the reading off a “hard disk” of a record of what happened in the past? Thanks / Antony. 40844 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 8:44pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (226) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many appana javana varas. They are 1. jhana vithi vara 2. magga vithi vara 3. abhinna vithi vara 4. jhana samapatti vithi vara 5. phala samapatti vithi vara 6. nirodhasamapatti vithi vara Among these vithi vara, jhana vithi vara has been expalined in the previous post. Magga vithi vara is output of vipassana bhavana. It derives from kamavacara mahakusala cittas. Sometime at early stages upacara samadhi or appana samadhi help nivara dhamma clear off the mind. Viapassana nanas are not that simple to expalain in a post. Because there are many inputs into arising of such highly developed wisdom. At earlier parts of the whole path, the practitioner learns as much as possible regarding dhamma and he discerns the dhamma at all cost. As there is a deep and firm belief this makes him to develop higher sila. Unlike sila in ordinary time, sila of practising vipassana practitioner is much more purere than others. As he is watching out at 6 dvaras or 6 doors and as there do not arise any nivarana dhamma or hindrances he has a very pure sila called indriya-samvara-sila. As nivarana dhammas are away, the bhavana with upacara samadhi is very pure. All cittas that arise in him are pure and sinless. Both upacara samadhi and appana samadhi are known as cittavisuddhi or purification of consciousness. Because the cittas at that time is totally free of nivarana dhamma which definitely hinder magga nana not to arise. Through vipassana he starts to see realities or dhamma that is ultimate realities or paramattha dhamma. When he breathes in, he knows the whole breath and when out he knows the whole breath. He is not thinking any sensuous matter but attending at realities. When breath comes in he knows it comes and knows the sensation. The sensation is rupa and knowledge of that sensation is nama. He knows them separately. Again he realizes that these rupa dhamma and nama dhamma do not arise without causes. He clearly sees conditional things why rupa has to arise and why nama has to arise. He sees that those nama and rupa just pass away at each moment. They are disappearing at a tremendous rate. He knows these dhamma arising and passing away and later he just sees passing away. Shockingly they are disappearing all the time and they are not long lasting and they are frightening. Such frightening things are not to attach and they are to be disregarded and blameworthy. He becomes tired of such impermanent things disappearing at a tremendous rate. He wants to be liberated from such boring things. So he particularly re-orientates to vipassana object. And finally he is able to view balancely on dhamma. Before these happen he started to realize dhamma with their pertinent characteritics and he is free of any wrong view and his views are purified by vipassana. As he has the right view he no more has any doubt on the past, the present, the future, triplegem, the practice, and dependent origination. He is free of any doubt. He has purification of doubt. Before arising of above vipassana nana he finds that there are radiant light, intense joy, supreme calm, ultra confidence, extreme effort, super-ease, clear wisdom, uninterrupted mindfulness, super- balance and extremely fine likeness on vipassana. But at a time he overcomes these 10 upakkilesas and he knows that these are not the right way and he does not follow any of these 10 and instead he steadfastly practise vipassana at three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. After overcoming these things, the above stated milestones are passed one after another and now he is quite ready to rocket up to magga nana. At a time he passes into numerous bhavanga cittas and then he arises from bhavanaga cittas with the first vithi citta called mano- dvara-avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness. AFter that as he is well ripen for arising of sotapatti magga nana there arise magga vithi vara. Magga vithi vara is like the following codes. BBBBB...BBBM,1.P,2.U,3.A,4.G,5.Sm,6.Sp,7.Sp,BB for mandha puggala or BBBBB...BBBM,1.U,2.A,3.G,4.Sm,5.Sp,6.Sp,7.Sp,BB for tikkha puggala. Mandha means ordinary and tikkha means highly intelligent. B = bhavanga citta M = manodvaravajjana P = parikamma mahakusala citta U = upacara mahakusala citta A = anuloma mahakusala citta G = gotrabhu mahakusala lineage-chaning citta Sm= sotapatti magga citta Sp= sotapatti phala citta There are 7 javana cittas. PUAGSmSpSp or UAGSmSpSpSp. Normally there are 7 successive javana cittas and they all are the same. The 1st javana citta conditions the 2nd and 2nd to 3rd and this happen till 7th. This is called asevana paccaya. But here sotapatti magga citta do not condition sotapatti phala citta with asevana paccaya. But with vipaka paccaya, anantara paccaya, samanantara paccaya, natthi paccaya, vigata paccaya etc. So do sotapatti phala cittas. But former cittas like parikamma mahakusala citta, upacara mahakusala citta, anuloma mahakusala citta and gotrabhu mahakusala citta do condition their following citta with asevana paccaya or repeatition condition. Just before arising of sotapatti magga citta there is the right path and that is patipadananadassana visuddhi and arising of sotapatti magga citta is nanadassana visuddhi. Because sotapatti magga citta sees nibbana as its object and the object is so pure and uncomparable to any other object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40845 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 8:56pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Friends Howard and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > Howard, your remark about having difficulty to understand the rupas > > nutrition and life faculty made me reflect a little more. I do not know > > whether you find this meaningful. > > When we compare a corpse and a living body there is something in a living > > body not found in a corpse. That is life faculty. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not as far as I'm concerned. There are many things missing in a > corpse, most especially functioning of various sorts. There is no blood circulation, > no breathing, no heart beat, no brain function, no renewing of heat, no > replacement of tissue, etc Life faculty, as far as I know, is not something to be > found even in a living body. > ---------------------------------------- I agree with Nina that there is a rupa, directly observable, which corresponds to the `life faculty' Nina is describing (with my little knowledge of Abhidhamma). I think that this rupa is only observed through the mind door, is that correct? (I think that much confusion arises because of the way Nina describes rupas. In my opinion, Nina describes rupas in a way which makes them seem like `entities'. To my understanding, a rupa is simply something experienced, not something which exists without an observer.) I speak from personal experience because when my sister died, and I went to the hospital and entered the room where they had her dead body, I knew that she was dead without even having to look at her or touch her. Why? Well, it's hard to describe, but it was because it was like she wasn't in the room. Sure, I could see her body, and she looked like she was sleeping, but I couldn't "feel" any life faculty coming from her—in my mind. I had spent many years growing up with her, and I knew intimately the types of `vibes' she sends out, and there weren't any of those vibes. The life faculty was gone. I read something similar to this in a description of when a friend of Janis Joplin entered the hotel room where she died. He wrote that he entered the room and it felt like no one was in the room. When the spotted the legs of Janis Joplin on the other side of the bed, he instantly knew she was dead. He didn't think she was sleeping or have to check her heart beat, when you are really close to someone you know when they are dead. I think that that is the life faculty Nina is describing. Metta, James ps. Like most Abhidhamma matters, I don't know what this subject has to do with suffering and the ending of suffering, but I had a few minutes this morning so I thought I would respond. Bad boy that I am, entertaining my personal craving for entertainment! ;-)). 40846 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashbacks and guilt Hi Antony, When I am plagued with a recuring complex mental drama I usually just recognize it as such and let it play itself out. Also sometimes I notice that a painful bodily feeling accompanies this drama. Recognizing that the feeling is just a feeling somewhat dissociates the feeling from the drama. For me it is best to keep things as simple as possible and not get too analytical or tell oneself stories about memory or contact. Larry 40847 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:04pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 94- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (f) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Since kusala kamma and akusala kamma are capable of producing rebirth-consciousness, they are a link in the ‘Dependant Origination’ (paìiccasamuppåda, the conditional origination of phenomena). The doctrine of the ‘Dependant Origination’ explains the conditions for the continuation of the cycle of birth and death by way of twelve links, starting from ignorance (avijjå). Ignorance is mentioned as the first link. It is because of not knowing realities as they are, that we have to be born and that we have to suffer old age, sickness and death. The eradication of ignorance is the end of the cycle and thus the end of dukkha. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40848 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:32pm Subject: Re: Rob M. Hi Larry, I was in Sydney at the time. There was no impact on me or anybody that I know directly. The outpouring of compassion that I am witnessing is unbelievable. There is a steady stream of lorries leaving the Buddhist temple where I teach, but the complex is still full of donated water / medicines / clothes / etc.. I have been so incredibly busy that I haven't signed on to DSG for three weeks. Imagine my delight today when I noticed that the description had been updated to focus on dhammas with 'realities' in quotation marks! Wow!! :-) It will be one to two more weeks before I have a chance to re-engage myself with DSG. I look forward to chatting with old friends again! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Has anyone heard from Rob M? I hope he didn't get swept away in the > tsunami. > > Larry 40849 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi AndrewL (& RobK), I’m going to pick out any questions you raised in your post #40596 which I haven’t addressed. Apologies for the delay. Thank you for all your other comments which I’ve noted with interest. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > OK, but to clear up, the cittas are always located in the mind, right? > Or is it on different sense-bases? …. S: Back to the location issue. When people ask as you do here, invariably there is an idea of cittas (and cetasikas) being in a place or location and I don’t think we can talk about namas being ‘in or on any place’. RobK picked me up on this and it’s true as he says that we can talk about cittas arising at a base such as eye-base or heart-base, but what this really means, as I understand it, is that all cittas in the sensuous realm arise dependent on a base (vatthu), a rupa, in order to experience an object Put simply, the citta which sees can only arise when certain conditions are in place. When we are sleeping, there is no citta which sees. However, when a visible object arises and ‘impacts’ on eye-base (or eye-sense if you prefer), seeing consciousness can arise. Similarly, bhavanga cittas ,mind-door cittas or other cittas in the sense-door process other than seeing, hearing etc are dependent on heart-base to arise. We can say they arise at the heart-base, but the meaning is that the rupa which is heart-base (or in the first example, eye-base) is an essential condition for them to arise. If we think cittas are in or on a base, it can be misleading if it’s taken literally. Usually in the texts, we read something like this: Cmy to Abhidammattha Sangaha: “Consciousness in the eye, being dependent upon it [i.e the eye], is eye-consciousness. Thus it is said that ‘it has the characteristic of discriminating visible forms in dependence upon the eye.’ “ …. S:I think it helps to understand all dhammas as elements, arising dependent on their own conditions. Namas depend on rupas to arise (as well as other namas) but the support or basis is just that, not something they are physically attached to or in. Sammohavinodani transl 1759 “Likewise the eye is the eye element, the visible datum is the visible-datum element; the seeing is the eye-consciousness element; the states associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental-datum element. In this way ‘looking towards and looking away’ is stated in terms of these four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away? “Likewise the eye is support condition; the visible datum is object condition; adverting is proximity… (and other conditions); light is decisive-support condition; feeling, etc are conascence and other conditions. Thus is ‘looking towards and looking away’ stated in terms of these conditions. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away? “Thus should ‘clear comprehension through non-delusion’ be understood here as reviewing the aggregates, the bases, the elements and the conditions.” …. S:Later at 2035 in the same text, another relevant section: “…the basis of eye-consciousnes is one; its object another; another, those of ear-consciousness, etc. Eye-consciousness does not arise making any among ear sensitivity, etc its basis nor any among sounds, etc its object, even from aeon to aeon; it arises making only eye sensitivity its basis and visible data its object. Thus its basis, its door and its object are fixed; it does not transfer to another basis or door or object. It arises only with a fixed basis, a fixed door and a fixed object. So also with ear-consciousness, etc.” ….. A:> Is consciousness there too? … S: Consciousness is citta. There is a citta or consciousness arising at every moment. So when it is body-consciousness, experiencing heat/cold or another rupa, body-sense (which as I said is ‘all over the body’) is the base or support for this citta. We can say it arises at the body-sense or experiences the rupa through the body-door, but remember again, that these are different elements arising dependent on their own conditions. Again to be very accurate, in the Patthana, we read that ‘eye-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by dependence condition’ and so on.’ The same applies to other bases and cittas which as I’ve said, cannot arise without dependence on a base, even in deep sleep when only bhavanga cittas arise. ... > Weird, I thought I've seen consciousness, and on a Buddhist community > forum I visit, one of the top important posts is "Does anything exist > other than consciousness?" So it appears other people have seen it > too. …. S: Seeing consciousness can only ever see visible object. I tried to find the post RobK was referring to of mine, but this is the only one that came up when I searched for my name and ‘location’. The following may be relevant for you here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35637 >S: I’d like to add a little more on this interesting topic. Larry just quoted from Vism, Ch. XIV “96. Herein, (34) 'eye-consciousness' has the characteristic of being supported by the eye and cognizing visible data.” <....> “35)-(38) 'Ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness' [respectively] have the characteristic of being supported by the ear, etc., and cognizing sounds, and so on. “ In other words, just as there cannot be eye-consciousness without the eye or the particular rupa of eye-base, so too there cannot be body-consciousness at any part of the body without the rupa of body-base at that location.< …. A:> OK. Best to know ultimate realities then, right? … S: Yes. If we don’t clearly understand the distinction between namas and rupas and if we confuse say seeing itself with the pasada rupa of eye-sense or don’t appreciate that it’s conditioned by the impingement of visible object on that eye-sense, we will always have some strange ideas about what is experienced and what experiences. This is why we need to really understand what is the meaning of terms like vatthu (base), arammana (object) and citta (consciousness). The Abhidhamma and all the details we read about are just about these presently arising dhammas. When there is awareness of seeing consciousness, there is no idea about location, about eye-base or whether anything else exists. It's just the nama which experiences. The same when visible object is known - it's perfectly clear than nothing else can be seen and there's no confusion with eye-base or seeing. It's just the rupa which appears at that moment. ... > It explains that mindfulness is to be cultivated, developed, and > enlarged, especially a factor of enlightenment, and that mindfulness > of certain nama and rupa (such as four elements) will see craving and > clinging wane. Mindfulness is the objective of the Four Foundations > of _Mindfulness_ :0) … S: Also understanding with detachment from the elements , without clinging or expectation of what will arise now or in future. …. > Thanks Sarah, > For being unbelievably patient with me as always, > A.L. … S: Not at all. Writing to friends like you is a kind of meditation for me as I think Nina has mentioned too. I always enjoy your comments and questions a lot and find them very helpful. Thx also for sharing your discussions with Kel and others here with us. A supportive community can help provide all sorts of assistance in our understanding of Dhamma, I find. I’ll be glad for any further comments you have. Metta, Sarah ======== 40850 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:55am Subject: Theravadan Texts to own -was ([dsg] Re: Idle chatter) S:AndrewL sent the following message below to the owner account - as it's addressed to all, I assume it was intended for the list as usual. ==================================================================== Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:24:24 -0000 From: "isijolayomi" Add to Address Book --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > [snip] As I mentioned, the extract was from the English translation of > the Atthasalini, which is the commentary to the Dhammasangani, the first > Text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. (Phil also gave a quote from it recently > #40606). It's full of good detail, but unfortunately the English > translation doesn't give any Pali terms. > > =========================== Hi all, Recently I posted asking for recommendation on books one could own - this post has me wondering - in addition to the Vism. and CMA (both of which I have) are there other commentaries or sub-commentaries especially worth having (not too high on the price scale)? Whether it's clarification of the Nikayas or the Abhidharma Pitaka, if it's worthwhile, I make take to buying it. Looking for more technical material to study than practise-oriented material at this point. Thanks, Andrew Levin 40851 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: Theravadan Texts to own -was ([dsg] Re: Idle chatter) Hi AndrewL, I'll just give a few brief comments and hope others will add their recommendations: > Recently I posted asking for recommendation on books one could own - > this post has me wondering - in addition to the Vism. and CMA (both > of which I have) are there other commentaries or sub-commentaries > especially worth having (not too high on the price scale)? Whether > it's clarification of the Nikayas or the Abhidharma Pitaka, if it's > worthwhile, I make take to buying it. Looking for more technical > material to study than practise-oriented material at this point. .... S: 1. very inexpensive if you can get them and very helpful indeed are B.Bodhi's full translations of a few suttas with commentaries and sub-commentaries. These include the Brahmajala Sutta (All Embracing Net of Views), Samannaphala Sutta (Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship),Mulapariyaya Sutta (Root of Existence), Mahanidana Sutta (Great Discourse on Causation). They were all published by BPS originally. Lots of great detail 2. There's a recent translation of the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta (The Buddha's Last Days) and commentaries which has a lot of good content from PTS. It'll cost more than the BPS ones, but is a slim volume and good quality. 3. Getting pricier, is the Atthasalini transl (The Expositor)from PTS and the best (and most expensive) Abhid commentary translation of all, Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion). these are the commentaries to the first two books of the Abhidhamma and are more useful than the Abhid texts themselves imho. 4. As you're using CMA a lot these days, I'd recommend the commentary to it which keeps being mentioned here: Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the topics of Abhidhamma. Maybe i'd recommend this for you above all the others as you're v.serious about the Abhidhamma and it goes well with CMA. (When we met Ken O, he was reading it cover to cover). You'd have to check the price - it would be in the medium category here. I believe Pariyatti also sells PTS books. If you're thinking of ordering several over the next few years, it's maybe worth becoming a PTS member and getting the discount. Of course, there's also shipping/air costs to consider. Metta, Sarah ====== 40852 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashbacks and guilt Dear Antony, I always like Larry's sympathetic and sensible comments when friends have difficulties. I'm also very glad to see that you've been finding the Abhidhamma so helpful at these times. A little more: --- Antony Woods wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Group, > > In the last week or so I have been using some Abhidhamma to deal with > flashbacks and guilt. I note that all feelings (vedana) are conditioned > by > contact (phassa) which is for example the mental event where the visible > > object, the eye-organ and the eye-consciousness arise. > > How does this apply to flashbacks (horrible memories of being a > perpetrator > of cruelty) and guilt? > > Are flashbacks mind-objects or do I note them as “seeing, seeing”? …. S: Flashbacks are mind-door concepts. It seems like they are visual images perhaps, but the memories and thinking are ‘triggered off’ and ‘dwell’ on these particular stories or images, inthis case with dosa. It’s like a nightmare which seems so real at the time, but is really just mind-door activity conditioned by our defilements. The only thing that will really help (and when I say ‘only’ I don’t wish to minimize the great help and relief it will bring) is the development of understanding or panna. Even realizing it’s just a kind of thinking at these times and that the stories or images are of no use whatsoever can help a lot. Thinking and guilt are just conditioned dhammas, namas, that arise and fall away immediately. They are not yours, Antony, or anyone else’s and there can be awareness of them when they arise instead of getting lost in the stories or images at these times. Whether they are images or concepts about past events that really happened or not makes no difference. What has happened (including any cruelty or past kilesa (defilements) of ours is gone completely. Just as there’s no use at all in craving or clinging to past experiences, so there is no use in dwelling and having aversion and distress about what has gone. Personally, I’ve found that the little Abhidhamma understanding I have has made a really tremendous difference in terms of not clinging on to past experiences in this or other ways. When I was younger, I used to dwell on bad dreams or harsh words spoken by others, even things I’d done wrong and so on, but this seldom happens now – partly because of a little more understanding of anatta which leads to less clinging to self and ‘my important experiences’! When one really appreciates there is only the present dhamma appearing which can ever be known, one has less and less interest or concern about what is past or in the future, just as we read about in the suttas. Life becomes a lot easier, lighter or simpler as Larry put it. “They do not sorrow over the past, they do not hanker over the future” etc (Devatasamyutta 1:10). It’s true that if there had been no seeing, no hearing and no attaching or being repelled from these experiences, there’d be no proliferating and aversion about them now. The seeing is real, the thinking is real, but the images and concepts are purely imagined. Let them go. …. > > I think I read in Nyanaponika’s “Abhidhamma Studies” that memories are > perceptions (sanna). > > Does this mean that memories are perceptions occurring in the present > moment > rather than the reading off a “hard disk” of a record of what happened > in > the past? …. S: The sanna (memory) now which ‘marks’ the concept or story is present, conditioned by all those past memories. This is the meaning of ‘accumulated’ by decisive support condition which ‘determines’ the present memory. This is why we don’t wish to add to that pile or heap of anusaya (latent tendency) for such unwholesome thoughts and memories to keep accumulating in the future. It’s the moments of satipatthana which help work towards breaking the cycle. Not self at all. Let me know if this makes sense and I’d be glad to continue the thread. Metta, Sarah ====== 40853 From: Mg Mg Than Htike Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:49am Subject: an invitation Hi friends I would like to invite you all to kindly visit my web site for Theravada Buddhism at _ http://uk.geocities.com/mmthanhtike/ . As of now, I'm just starting to build it. I welcome all suggestions from visitors to my web-site. I also welcome any friends, who have a good experience in building a personal web-site, to share with me thier good opinions about building such a web-site. And I am collecting good comprehensive English translations of Buddha's teachings to put up on my site for all visitors to view/study. If you have such collections and would like to contribute/ share them, please send them to me; I'll be very grateful. And I'm also collecting interesting Buddhism web-ste links; and also collecting pictures of Buddha images and pagodas. Thank you all, mmth 40854 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi, James - In a message dated 1/9/05 11:57:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I speak from personal experience because when my sister died, and I > went to the hospital and entered the room where they had her dead > body, I knew that she was dead without even having to look at her or > touch her. Why? Well, it's hard to describe, but it was because it > was like she wasn't in the room. Sure, I could see her body, and > she looked like she was sleeping, but I couldn't "feel" any life > faculty coming from her—in my mind. I had spent many years growing > up with her, and I knew intimately the types of `vibes' she sends > out, and there weren't any of those vibes. The life faculty was > gone. > ====================== However long ago this was, James, I'm very sorry for your lost. With regard to what you had previously detected and was then no longer detectable: I don't doubt that this was precisely your experience. What it may well have been was her mental function [awareness, thought processes, feelings, emotions, etc - things all detectable by a sensitive or even by a non-sensitive with a close psychic tie to the person] which, after death, is no longer present. You are assuming that it was "physical life faculty". Perhaps. Perhaps not. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40855 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Htoo, Tep & All, A good discussion. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Tep wrote: > > Hi, Htoo - > > I appreciate reading your reply to a previous question about habit or > vasana. .... The Udana ch 3, 6, Pilinda, is the one about the bhikkhu who’d refer to others as outcastes and seemed to have a lot of hatred. I discussed it before with Herman giving the notes below from the commentary which touches on the question of accumulated tendencies and vasana which you’re discussing and maybe of use. Perhaps we can say that vasana is a concept referring to many various dhammas that form the disposition or conduct, as it says here, conditioned by past kilesa. Conversely, a terrorist may speak very sweetly, conditioned by past wholesome states and past good kamma. Metta, Sarah ..... Herman: > As to the question of following precepts, the Udana provides a very > counter-intuitive example. Udana 3.6 tells of a monk who was in the > habit of reviling other monks and calling them outcasts. This was > brought to the attention of the Buddha who found no fault in the > bahaviour, but exclaimed > > "From whom no deceit or pride proceeds, > In whom avarice is annihilated, > Who has got rid of the notion 'this is mine', > Who is passionless and has put away wrath, > Who is freed from all cares, > That Bhikkhu is a Brahmana and a Samana." .... S:The commentary adds lots of extra detail. ‘A good many monks: many monks; when they saw the elder treating them in that way, they thought that that elder seemed to be one bearing hatred in that he treated them thus, not knowing that, though already an arahant, he made such proclamations on account of impressions (S: vasana??) not abandoned...’ The Buddha said: “This one treats (the monks) in that way owing to former habitual practice on his part; his harsh speech is not intentional”. And later, “Monks, it is not as one bearing hatred, with hatred in his heart, with a heart polluted by hatred, by ill will, that this Vaccha treats the monks to talk (reserved) for outcastes; his ill will has been completely rooted out by the path itself. He says “For (the monk) Vacha, monks” and so on, thus indicating that the reason for his treating (them) in that way, despite the fact that he is not bearing hatred, stems from former births” Also, “But what is this that is known as impressions? They say that that which, even in the continuity of one in whom the defilements are wanting, is the mere capacity, built up by defilements cultivated from time without beginning, to constitute the root-cause of conduct similar to conduct on the part of those in whom the defilements have not been abandoned, is a disposition of such a kind. “ The commentary continues to add that the only exception to this rule is the Buddha himself, in whose case the continuity of habitual tendencies from previous defilements disappear, ‘due to which the Tathagata is alone one whose knowledge and vision are without obstruction.’ .... 40856 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:34am Subject: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Howard, Tep, Nina, Mike N, Ken O, Jon, Sarah, Chris F, Bob K, Kel and all How are you? In one of the previous posts, Howard wrote: "I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas." In response to the above statement, I wrote the following in my previous post: "That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his teachings." In reply, Howard wrote: "That is your claim. I see no justification for it. In any case, there are many "academics" who are serious and devoted followers of the Dhamma who view Abhidhamma as a later development." This post begins with the following. It is always good to know that there are many academics who are serious and devoted followers of the Dhamma. But, those who view Abhidhamma as a later development are SPECULATIVE "academics" and not genuine followers of Gotama the Buddha and, as such, are not the genuine practitioners of his teachings. Do I have to remind a professor of mathematics like yourself that speculative doubting and negative verbalizing about Dhamma and practicing of Dhamma cancel out each other? Speculative doubting and negative verbalizing implies lack of saddhaa (confidence and trust) and destroys motivation (cetanaa) for practice. The serious followers of Gotama the Buddha and genuine practitioners of his teachings have abandoned indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Pali Tipitaka, (I mean Pali TI-PITAKA, consisting of Abhidhamma as the Third Pitaka). Instead of engaging in speculative negative criticism and exclusion of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the genuine practitioners of Dhamma would certainly learn and try out the teachings of Abhidhamma as best they can according to their capacity. They would be testing and experimenting the abhidhamma teachings to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things (Lokadhaatu), for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method. Anyone who views Abhidhamma as a later development and doubts its status as the authentic teachings of Gotama the Buddha will not have saddhaa in Abhidhamma. This lack of confidence and trust will remove their motivation for serious learning of Abhiddhama. Because they do not learn Abhidhamma seriously, they will lack adequate information about Abhidhamma. Because they are without information, they become ignorant and uninformed. As they are ignorant and uninformed, they continue indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Abhidhamma. In short, the uninformed and speculative academics and scholars, be they monks or lay people, practice the wrong speech (micchaa vaacaa). This leads them further away from practicing correctly the teachings of Gotama the Buddha. We can recast the above paragraph in the style of Paticcasamuppaada as follows. Asaddaa paccayaa acetanaa, acetanaa paccayaa anugga.nhanam, anugga.nhana paccayaa assutadhammaa, assutadhamma paccayaa micchaa di.t.thi, micchaadi.t.thi paccayaa micchaavaacaaa, micchaavaacaa paccayaaa micchaakammanto. Dependent on lack of confidence, lack of motivation happens. Dependent on lack of motivation, non-learning happens. Dependent on non-learning, being uninformed and ignorance of Dhamma happen. Dependent on ignorance of Dhamma, the wrong view happends. Dependent on the wrong view, the wrong speech happens. Dependent on the wrong speech, the wrong practice happens. Viewing Abhidhamma as a later development is the wrong view. Here the wrong view means the view that is not conducive to genuine learning, testing, experimenting, insight and realizing liberation. Declaring and spreading the wrong view is the wrong speech and the wrong practice. In other words, the uninformed and negatively speculative scholars and academics who view Abhidhamma as a later development cannot be doing the Right Speech (Sammaa Vaacaa) and the Right Action (Sammaa Kammanto). They cannot be genuine followers of Gotama the Buddha and practitioners of his teachings. Therefore, I uphold and justify the following statement I made previously. "That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his teachings." To Be Continued... With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Suan - > > In a message dated 12/31/04 10:05:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, > suanluzaw@b... writes: > > > Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Chris F, Mike, Andrew L, Ken O and all > > > > How are you? And Happy New Year! > > > > > Happy New Year To All! > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan > > > ======================= Happy New Year to you, Suan! With metta, Howard 40857 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi Howard, H: Thank you for the kind words, Nina. Unfortunately you will be less pleased with what I have to say in my just-sent reply to your post involving balance, nausea, life force and nutriment! Ah, well, I can't win them all!! ;-)) N: You made me laugh. I try again. I am glad you mention all this. op 10-01-2005 00:05 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> Bodysense itself is all over the body, it is the bodydoor through which can >> be experienced: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. Nothing >> more than that. >> > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, those are the loci for bodysense. N: to be more precise: hardness etc. are the objects experienced through the doorway which is the rupa bodysense, by the vipaakacitta that is body-consciousness. > Howard: > Imbalance, dizziness, and nausea are all bodily sensations. Each is a > rupa or sequence of body-door rupas. They aren't just stories. They can be > and are directly experienced. > ---------------------------------- N: We have to be more precise. Nausea, what is it? what is experienced through the bodysense? It may be some pressure or oscillation, and that is the element of wind or motion. Remember Htoo: he explained the experience of a painful wound as the experience of some moments of heat and also of hardness, alternately. We are self centered and think of my pain, my nausea, but let us analyse it, not naming it. Then we learn that they are only impersonal elements arising because of conditions and then gone. This must lead to detachment from I, mine. Nausea, dizziness, all conventional terms to denote a situation with 'me' in the center of it all. If there is direct awareness of just the three Great Elements, one characteristic at a time, then there is no need to think of my discomfort. Is that not a gain? H: There are many things missing in a > corpse, most especially functioning of various sorts. There is no blood > circulation, > no breathing, no heart beat, no brain function, no renewing of heat, no > replacement of tissue, etc Life faculty, as far as I know, is not something to > be > found even in a living body. > ---------------------------------------- N: You describe a situation, using medical terms. They are all true in conventional sense. But let us think of the real cause of life and death. Cause and result, kamma and vipaka. why is there no renewal of heat, etc.? There were conditions. The life faculty was cut off. Kamma did not produce any more bhavanga-cittas, life-continuity, and thus the continuity of the life of that individual was broken off. It was time for the cuti-citta, dying-consciousness. This is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the following life, produced by kamma. It is really helpful to consider that whatever is experienced is only nama and rupa. quote N: Life faculty is together> >> with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand that you believe that, Nina. But I have no idea why. N: I think that you find it acceptable that kamma produces birth. Kamma produces rebirth-consciousness and also some rupas at the first moment of our life. In the course of life we experience pleasant objects and unpleasant objects through the sense-doors, that is seeing etc, which can be a pleasant experience or an unpleasant experience. Such experiences are the results of kamma in the course of life. And also the rupas which are the sense-doors are produced by kamma throughout life, so that desirable and undesirable objects can be experienced. Now this answers your remark above that you had no idea why Life faculty is together with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. Life faculty is not in a tree, here are only rupas produced by heat. > -------------------------------------- quote: Thus, together with> >> eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, (snipped). > A corpse does not have this. It is only in a living body.> >> ----------------------------------- > Howard: > As far as I know, neither do I. > ------------------------------------ > Ledi Sayadaw uses some similes (on p. 16), under rupas. snipped. >> > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > It seems to me that all this business is just primitive biology. > (Sorry) N: I am glad you mention this point. The Abhidhamma does not pretend to teach biology or science, thus, it does not teach a primitive biology either. The Co, in their explanations, and also Ledi Sayadaw, use some notions in this field for teaching purposes. As you also understood: to denote location. The aim, as said before, is helping us to understand that rupas are only ephemeral, impersonal elements. Primitive: Lodewijk said that we have to be very careful with this predicat. Science which seems advanced now will be judged primitive some decads later. Let us cross the barriers of prejudices that exist between nations, about civilisations, religions, colour of the skin. Knowing that there are only citta, cetasika and rupa helps to do away with prejudices. The Buddha taught the truth for all times, for everybody. When I visited Kh Sujin in the beginning, she put down her hand and asked me what I saw. Only pink colour. She said that it does not matter whether it is pink, brown or any other colour. This teaches us that skin colour is not important. The Abhidhamma helps to cure prejudices between nations and between individuals. Citta, cetasika and rupa! Nina. P.S. You have no fear of death. Can you elaborate on this, Howard? How is your Dhamma group doing, what are the subjects? 40858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 09-01-2005 19:52 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w... > >quotes Nina: "Saññaa marks the object that is cognized by citta so that it > can be recognized." L: Can you say more about this mark. Is it a sign (nimitta)? N: Yes, in the text the word nimitta is used. In the Tiika of Vis. 130 it is stressed how the carpenters make a sign, nimitta, again and again so that the tree is recognized or remembered. Does this not happen the whole day? Sañña works extremely fast and in an efficient way, no need to think for a long time, 'this is a computer'. L: Also, what > about the object? It seems that often the object of sanna is a > complex experience. Maybe the deer is afraid of the scarecrow because > the farmer threw a stick at the deer. How much of this reasoning is > the work of sanna? N: Many cittas reason and they have many different objects, among them concepts of a complex whole. All these moments are accompanied by sañña. It performs its task at each and every moment. And all experiences are accumulated in the citta. That is why a deer remembers: formerly I was beaten, better be careful now. Tiika Vis. 130 mentions sañña that accompanies pañña and also sañña that accompanies defilements. Citta can experience all kinds of objects, realities or concepts, and sañña accompanying citta perceives the same object. Nina. P.S. I am going away this Wednesday until Saturday, but meanwhile I work on the Pali and take the texts with me. 40859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience, courage and good cheer Dera Connie, op 09-01-2005 22:48 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > The following are some that I thought might interest someone I'd been > talking with about death. > > *** > S: Before becoming Khun Nina, what was there? > N: Another life. > S: Yeah. From the day you were born and then you had everything from > childhood up to now, if it's time to lose, it's exactly the same like from > before when you were not born as Khun Nina, so you did not lose anything > at all. > It is vipaka citta and cetasika that are reborn/conditioned. N: Yes, I found it helpful, and I used it for my India talk. We find this life so important, but it is only one life out of the long, long cycle of birth and death. But the right Path eventually leads to the end. > S: When we're thinking, it's not the dying consciousness. N: This helps people who have fear of death. The cuti-citta can be shortly after seeing now, but at the moment of cuti-citta the object is the same as all bhavanga-cittas of the life that is going to end. It is the same as being fat asleep, no object impinging. Thus, at that moment we do not even know that we are dying. No fear. > S: Everything goes away, all the time. > 'My worry' is only nama. N: It is conditioned and falls away immediately. Why do we find it so important? C: Last I looked, the mp3's were still at: www.dhammastudygroup.org N: Also at dhammahome, the English part at the right side. One has to push the bar at the bottom, and I only just found out! Kom is putting up at my India Pilgrimage. Nina. 40860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Dear friend James, thanks for your sympathetic mail. I was really impressed the way you described seeing the body of your sister. op 10-01-2005 05:56 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I agree with Nina that there is a rupa, directly observable, which > corresponds to the `life faculty' Nina is describing (with my little > knowledge of Abhidhamma). I think that this rupa is only observed > through the mind door, is that correct? N: yes, correct. It cannot be known through touch. (I think that much confusion > arises because of the way Nina describes rupas. In my opinion, Nina > describes rupas in a way which makes them seem like `entities'. To > my understanding, a rupa is simply something experienced, not > something which exists without an observer.) N: rupas: ephemeral, impersonal elements. I would not call that entities. They are real, but fall away, susceptible to breaking up. Phenomenologists believe that they do not exist when not experienced, but here I think differently. I understand though, you and Howard's view. J: ps. Like most Abhidhamma matters, I don't know what this subject has > to do with suffering and the ending of suffering, N: I tried to explain this to Howard. No stories about nausea, but developing direct understanding of nama and rupa. This must lead to detachment. Nina. 40861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vasana of the arahat. Dear Tep, op 09-01-2005 20:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in sankhara > khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by the > Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, so > how come vasana still does? > > I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you think? N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides in a specific khandha. citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sañña included. But I see no specific role of sañña or the other cetasikas. NIna. 40862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashbacks and guilt Hi Larry, I like this post, you touch on the essence. Stories complicate life, how true. Nina. op 10-01-2005 06:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > When I am plagued with a recuring complex mental drama I usually just > recognize it as such and let it play itself out. Also sometimes I notice > that a painful bodily feeling accompanies this drama. Recognizing that > the feeling is just a feeling somewhat dissociates the feeling from the > drama. > > For me it is best to keep things as simple as possible and not get too > analytical or tell oneself stories about memory or contact. 40863 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/10/05 10:01:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > > Hi Howard, > H: Thank you for the kind words, Nina. Unfortunately you will be less > pleased with what I have to say in my just-sent reply to your post involving > balance, nausea, life force and nutriment! Ah, well, I can't win them all!! > ;-)) > N: You made me laugh. I try again. I am glad you mention all this. > > op 10-01-2005 00:05 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >>Bodysense itself is all over the body, it is the bodydoor through which > can > >>be experienced: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. Nothing > >>more than that. > >> > >----------------------------------- > >Howard: > >Yes, those are the loci for bodysense. > N: to be more precise: hardness etc. are the objects experienced through the > doorway which is the rupa bodysense, by the vipaakacitta that is > body-consciousness. > > >Howard: > >Imbalance, dizziness, and nausea are all bodily sensations. Each is a > >rupa or sequence of body-door rupas. They aren't just stories. They can be > >and are directly experienced. > >---------------------------------- > N: We have to be more precise. Nausea, what is it? what is experienced > through the bodysense? It may be some pressure or oscillation, and that is > the element of wind or motion. > Remember Htoo: he explained the experience of a painful wound as the > experience of some moments of heat and also of hardness, alternately. > We are self centered and think of my pain, my nausea, but let us analyse it, > not naming it. Then we learn that they are only impersonal elements arising > because of conditions and then gone. This must lead to detachment from I, > mine. > Nausea, dizziness, all conventional terms to denote a situation with 'me' in > the center of it all. If there is direct awareness of just the three Great > Elements, one characteristic at a time, then there is no need to think of my > discomfort. Is that not a gain? > ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't disagree with you here, Nina. It was intentional that I used the expression "SEQUENCE of body-door rupas" when I wrote "Imbalance, dizziness, and nausea are all bodily sensations. Each is a rupa or sequence of body-door rupas." I recognize that these phenomena may well be compounds of rupas, and that what are directly observed are not them, but the experiential realities that are their basis. ----------------------------------- > H: There are many things missing in a > >corpse, most especially functioning of various sorts. There is no blood > >circulation, > >no breathing, no heart beat, no brain function, no renewing of heat, no > >replacement of tissue, etc Life faculty, as far as I know, is not something > to > >be > >found even in a living body. > >---------------------------------------- > N: You describe a situation, using medical terms. They are all true in > conventional sense. But let us think of the real cause of life and death. > Cause and result, kamma and vipaka. why is there no renewal of heat, etc.? > There were conditions. The life faculty was cut off. Kamma did not produce > any more bhavanga-cittas, life-continuity, and thus the continuity of the > life of that individual was broken off. It was time for the cuti-citta, > dying-consciousness. This is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the > following life, produced by kamma. It is really helpful to consider that > whatever is experienced is only nama and rupa. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I am completely accepting of kamma and kammic consequence. The details of these and their operation, however, are very complex and largely unknown to us. The presumption of life faculty, however, is just a presumption. Motion, heat, etc are observed. Life faculty is not, and least not by me. I do not deny the existence of such a proposed phenomenon, but I also find no basis (or need) for presuming it. ----------------------------------------- > > quote N: Life faculty is together> > >>with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >I understand that you believe that, Nina. But I have no idea why. > N: I think that you find it acceptable that kamma produces birth. Kamma > produces rebirth-consciousness and also some rupas at the first moment of > our life. In the course of life we experience pleasant objects and > unpleasant objects through the sense-doors, that is seeing etc, which can be > a pleasant experience or an unpleasant experience. Such experiences are the > results of kamma in the course of life. And also the rupas which are the > sense-doors are produced by kamma throughout life, so that desirable and > undesirable objects can be experienced. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Fine. --------------------------------------- > Now this answers your remark above that you had no idea why Life faculty > is > together with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. Life faculty > is not in a tree, here are only rupas produced by heat. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't consider the foregoing as having answered that. I see life faculty as just a matter of belief. BTW, the idea of plant life being solely a result of heat appears baseless to me. --------------------------------------- > >-------------------------------------- > quote: Thus, together with> > >>eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, (snipped). > >A corpse does not have this. It is only in a living body.> > >>----------------------------------- > >Howard: > >As far as I know, neither do I. > >------------------------------------ > >Ledi Sayadaw uses some similes (on p. 16), under rupas. snipped. > >> > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > >It seems to me that all this business is just primitive biology. > >(Sorry) > N: I am glad you mention this point. The Abhidhamma does not pretend to > teach biology or science, thus, it does not teach a primitive biology > either. The Co, in their explanations, and also Ledi Sayadaw, use some > notions in this field for teaching purposes. As you also understood: to > denote location. The aim, as said before, is helping us to understand that > rupas are only ephemeral, impersonal elements. > Primitive: Lodewijk said that we have to be very careful with this predicat. > Science which seems advanced now will be judged primitive some decads later. > Let us cross the barriers of prejudices that exist between nations, about > civilisations, religions, colour of the skin. > Knowing that there are only citta, cetasika and rupa helps to do away with > prejudices. The Buddha taught the truth for all times, for everybody. > When I visited Kh Sujin in the beginning, she put down her hand and asked me > what I saw. Only pink colour. She said that it does not matter whether it is > pink, brown or any other colour. This teaches us that skin colour is not > important. The Abhidhamma helps to cure prejudices between nations and > between individuals. Citta, cetasika and rupa! > Nina. > P.S. You have no fear of death. Can you elaborate on this, Howard? > ------------------------------------- Howard: There is not much to say, Nina. It is not that there is NO fear of death. There is some. It became radically diminished subsequent to that brief no-sense-of-self experience of mine close to a decade ago. A number of years back, during a period of about a week in which I had good (but false) reason for expecting to die soon, I simply was completely accepting and unafraid. Whenever I turn my mind even now to the realization that at this very moment, in actuality, there is no knowing subject at all, but just an impersonal flow of experiential phenomena, there is very little concern that this experience should radically alter or even cease entirely. --------------------------------------- > How is your Dhamma group doing, what are the subjects? --------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for asking. We've been meeting regularly and having good Dhamma discussions and 45-minute group meditations. The membership is still quite small. We will be working on increasing that. Quite terribly, a young member of the group passed away not long ago - a tragic event. We've discussed a number of topics. The one we spent most time on was dependent origination. That carried us for many meetings. Very soon we will commence an extended study of the writings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and comparisons of his positions with those of other teachers and with what is to be found in the Tipitaka itself and in the writings of Buddhaghosa. This project will be quite an undertaking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40864 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread (227) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among many different vithi varas namely 1.jhana vithi vara, 2.magga vithi vara, 3.abhinna vithi vara, 4.jhana samapatti vithi vara, 5.phala samapatti vithi vara, 6.nirodhasamapatti vithi vara the first two vithi varas have been discussed. In both of them appana arises once. In case of jhana vithi vara the vithi cittas are .. BBB..BBBMPUAGJBBBB Jhana citta arises only once in this initial vithi vara. Likewise in magga vithi vara the vithi cittas are .. BBB..BBBMPUAGSmSpSpBBBB Here sotapatti magga citta arises just once. This magga citta is appana samadhi citta. Here it seems like that cittas run into nibbana and is absorbed. As mahakusala cittas are working well successive vithi varas become more and more mature and at a time pass into bhavanga cittas and as soon as the first vithi citta arises that is manodvaravajjana citta that citta takes the vipassana object and then successively run and rocket to magga citta. Magga cittas are appana cittas. Their resultant cittas phala cittas are also appana cittas. But manodvaravajjana citta, parikamma mahakusala citta, upacara mahakusala citta, anuloma mahakusala citta and gotrabhu mahakusala cittas are not of appana quality. Lineagewise they are all kamavacara cittas. They are kamma cittas. Any magga cittas run in such order and just before magga cittas is gotrabhu citta. This citta who is lineage-changing citta is mahakusala citta. It is makavacara citta. It is not a jhana citta. Unlike jhana cittas kamavacara cittas are not absorptive consciousness. But rupavacara cittas (rupa jhanas)or arupavacara cittas (arupa jhanas) are always absorptive consciousness. They are absorbed into their own object and they will not release that object. As soon as they release they die out. It is crucial to understand magga vithi vara. When magga vithi varas are understood there will not be any controversials at all. That is why I initially classified citta in many different ways. Classwise lokuttara cittas and rupavacara cittas or arupavacara cittas are totally different. But samadhiwise both kinds of citta have appana samadhi. Rupavacara rupa jhana cittas are called rupa jhana appana and arupavacara jhana cittas are called arupa jhana appana while magga cittas are called lokuttara appana cittas. Because magga cittas are absorbed in nibbana. They very clearly and very closely see nibbbana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40865 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (228) Dear Dhamma Friends, Out of many different vithi varas namely 1.jhana vithi vara, 2.magga vithi vara, 3.abhinna vithi vara, 4.jhana samapatti vithi vara, 5.phala samapatti vithi vara, 6.nirodhasamapatti vithi vara the first two vithi varas have been discussed. The third vithi vara is abhinna vithi vara. Regarding jhanas all rupa jhanas and all arupa jhanas have been discussed in detail while different cittas are being discussed. In another series called 'Jhana Journey' all rupa jhanas and all arupa jhanas are well explained. For abhinna to practise all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas should well be mastered. That means they have to be developed at will. This happens through five different exercises called vasi. They are avajjana vasi, samapajjana vasi, adhitthana vasi, votthana vasi and paccavakkhana vasi. After each stage of jhanas have well been exercised through these 5 vasis these jhanas will be able to be develop at will. But be careful that cittas, cetasikas, rupas cannot be created by anyone including our great teacher The Buddha. This is talking from The Dhamma side. Some may argue these statements. As soon as The Buddha thought to reveal yamaka patihara or miracles, this citta sankhara leads arising of successors dhamma one after another. But The Buddha was not creating any dhammas. If this is not clear there might develop some subtle wrong views which are very hard to crack. Once I read someone written that 'The Buddha control rupas with jhana power'. This is not true. But from perspective of communication we can say that jhana cittas can be developed at will. In which way? Through practice. Just momentary attainment of jhanic states does not mean the attainer is expert and has experty in jhana matters. But for proficiency the already achieved jhanas have to be sharpened by practice. Example is avajjana vasi. If I attained jhanas and I was not currently not in jhana, then I had to be in kamavacara javana varas. Then there might arise a thought to develop jhana. As soon as the thought encroaches jhana cittas arise. But there is some delay. This delay is different in different people. But we can practise to reduce this delay by practising avajjana vasi. This vasi advert the mind from kamavaca javana varas to jhana appana javana varas. In case of The Buddha when He was in kamavacara javana varas as soon as the thought of will to develop jhana arises His current kamavacara javana varas stop and passed into 'ONLY' 2 bhavanaga cittas and then mind-door-adverting consciousness or manodvaravajjana citta adverts the mind to jhana appana javana varas. When The Buddha exit or emerged from jhana appana javana vara again only 2 bhavanga cittas intervened and then paccavakkhana javana varas arise. Unlike other arahats our great teacher The Buddha has the fastest speed of going into paccavakkhana javana vara. While other arahats take 7 javana cittas, The Buddha's paccavakkhana javana cittas only take 4 or 5 moments and then He advert to another jhana appana javana varas. The Buddha was so fast in switching on and off in jhanas that even Venerable Mahamoggallana could not follow His footsteps. All Buddhists know that Moggallana Thera's jhana power is the greatest after The Buddha. The Buddha has to be fast because yamaka patihara or miracles do have beneficial effects and to produce these miracle effects, He has to switch on and off different jhanas with different kasinas very quickly. We can see the miracles that The Buddha is in the air (one). His right eye is jetting shower of water (two) and left eye is blowing a great flame(three). His right ear is sparkling with fireworks (four), and His left ear is fountaining with water (five) and many other miracles. Actually The Buddha is successively switching on and off very fastly in different kasina jhanas. But what what we see is continuous phenomena and great miracle. As ultimate realities these do not last long. These miracles are all cittaja rupas. They are jhana abhinna cittaja rupas. For abhinna to practise all jhanas have to be mastered. And all 10 kasina kammatthanas have to be practised up to 4th jhana. That is up to 5th rupakusala jhana level. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40866 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:10am Subject: Thina and Middha are paramattha dhamma Dear Dhamma Friends, Thina and middha are frequently misunderstood. This is because the meaning is not discerned and the learners just use translated simple English and they do not explore the real meaning. Thina and middha are not sleepiness. Thina and middha can well arise even when we are very alert. So it is not enough just to view them as sloth and torpor even though they carry some meaningful idea on what thina and middha mean. Thina and middha are cetasika dhamma. They are paramattha dhamma. They are not pannatti dhamma. Thina and middha are not concept. They are realities. People believe that they know thina and middha very well and they assume thina and middha as 'laziness' 'sluggishness' 'sleepiness' etc etc. But in actual term thina and middha are subtle dhamma and they can be sensed by manayatana when they themselves serve as dhammayatana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40867 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Suan No offense, but what you write here has all the earmarks of Nazi propaganda. My way or the highway? Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely. I can't think of one good reason why the Abhidhamma Pitaka would be considered the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself." But I can think of a lot of reasons of why it wouldn't be. And yet, I have no problems studying it or appreciating it. And you have no clue as to what my practice is or how motivated it is. I can't even claim that all of the Four Great Nikayas are for sure the Buddha's own teaching. But due to stylistic and content consistency and the difficulty of forging this type of consistency, I'm confident enough that the vast majority of them represent what he taught well. I feel very little of the 5th Nikaya is his actual teaching. TRUTH is the hallmark of an aspiring Buddhist or truth investigator. Claiming something to be true that, in fact, is not known to be true, is a dangerous and untruthful approach IMO. How many Christians will look you in the face and say that they KNOW that God exists or that Jesus came here to save them? A lot! And yet, they don't really know it. I don't see that what is written down below is any different from that. TG In a message dated 1/10/2005 6:34:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: But, those who view Abhidhamma as a later development are SPECULATIVE "academics" and not genuine followers of Gotama the Buddha and, as such, are not the genuine practitioners of his teachings. Do I have to remind a professor of mathematics like yourself that speculative doubting and negative verbalizing about Dhamma and practicing of Dhamma cancel out each other? Speculative doubting and negative verbalizing implies lack of saddhaa (confidence and trust) and destroys motivation (cetanaa) for practice. The serious followers of Gotama the Buddha and genuine practitioners of his teachings have abandoned indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Pali Tipitaka, (I mean Pali TI-PITAKA, consisting of Abhidhamma as the Third Pitaka). Instead of engaging in speculative negative criticism and exclusion of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the genuine practitioners of Dhamma would certainly learn and try out the teachings of Abhidhamma as best they can according to their capacity. They would be testing and experimenting the abhidhamma teachings to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things (Lokadhaatu), for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method. Anyone who views Abhidhamma as a later development and doubts its status as the authentic teachings of Gotama the Buddha will not have saddhaa in Abhidhamma. This lack of confidence and trust will remove their motivation for serious learning of Abhiddhama. Because they do not learn Abhidhamma seriously, they will lack adequate information about Abhidhamma. Because they are without information, they become ignorant and uninformed. As they are ignorant and uninformed, they continue indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Abhidhamma. In short, the uninformed and speculative academics and scholars, be they monks or lay people, practice the wrong speech (micchaa vaacaa). This leads them further away from practicing correctly the teachings of Gotama the Buddha. 40868 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:47am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Suan Some words to you without Pali The way you talk about professors is not the 'right speech' of the Noble Eightfold path It is full of hatred You have your opinion about the status and moment of composition of the Abhidhamma, other respected dsg-members have other opinion and only an individual him/herself can decide if he/she is a buddhist There is more than one way going to enlightenment. Joop 40869 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Suan wrote: Dear Howard, Tep, Nina, Mike N, Ken O, Jon, Sarah, Chris F, Bob K, Kel and all How are you? In one of the previous posts, Therefore, I uphold and justify the following statement I made previously. "That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his teachings." To Be Continued... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Suan, I agree. Htoo With regards, Suan 40870 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:12am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Joop wrote: Suan Some words to you without Pali The way you talk about professors is not the 'right speech' of the Noble Eightfold path It is full of hatred You have your opinion about the status and moment of composition of the Abhidhamma, other respected dsg-members have other opinion and only an individual him/herself can decide if he/she is a buddhist There is more than one way going to enlightenment. Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was considering whether it is valid to say .. ''There is more than one way going to enlightnement''. [should have been there 'are' instead of 'is', if someone believes there are many ways] Once a turtle and a fish were frineds. One day the turtle reached ashore and he walked on the shore and landed and enjoyed the dry land. When he met the fish he said, 'friend, there is the land'. Fish: What is that? Turtle: It is a place. Fish: Is it wet like our ocean water? T: No, it is dry. F: Is it cold like our ocean water? T: No it is warm. F: Is it possible to swim in land? T: No. You cannot. But you have to walk on it. F: Can we see things through that land like our ocean water? T: No, you cannot. It is opaque. F: Haa haa haa haa haa haa haa. Turtle, turtle. You are talking non- sense. Your land is not wet, not cold, and we cannot swim in it, and we cannot seee things through it. This is impossible. Actually there is no land at all. This simile is about nibbana. Ariya [turtle] met putthujana [fish] and talked that nibbana and so and so. But puthujana does not believe and finally laughed out loud. When I quoted this simile on nibbana once someone argued that there are many way to reach ashore. There is a single way and it is Noble Eightfold Path made up of 8 parts. Without all these 8 parts no one will achieve nibbana at all however hard they have been trying for millions and millions of year. There are many ways to nibbana is not in line with The Buddha teachings. Htoo Naing 40871 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Friends Howard and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > However long ago this was, James, I'm very sorry for your lost. Thanks. > With regard to what you had previously detected and was then no longer > detectable: I don't doubt that this was precisely your experience. What it > may well have been was her mental function [awareness, thought processes, > feelings, emotions, etc - things all detectable by a sensitive or even by a > non-sensitive with a close psychic tie to the person] Well, yeah, that is the life faculty, I think. I think of the life faculty as being `synergy'. The energy of the sum total of the parts, everything you mention. Here is a definition from the Internet: Life Faculty is the force of vitality that keeps the other factors in existence in a living being http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/abhi1.html However, Nina in her other post makes the suggestion that life faculty is heat. Huh?? Now, I don't get that at all. which, after death, is no longer > present. You are assuming that it was "physical life faculty". Perhaps. > Perhaps not. > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 40872 From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Nina: > Nausea, dizziness, all conventional terms to denote > a situation with 'me' in the center of it all. I don't see how the sensations of "nausea" or "dizziness" are necessarily any more or less tied to stories about Self than, say, "hardness" or "seeing." One could just as easily think "my hardness" or "my seeing." Matthew 40873 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Pilgrimage India, 1 b Pilgrimage India, 1 b We visited all the holy places with Acharn Sujin and a large group of friends, Thai and foreign. We went to Lumbini, where the Buddha was born, and each time we are impressed by the pillar erected by King Asoka, 249 B.C. which commemorates: ³Here Sakyåmuní (the sage of the Sakyan clan) was born². This pillar, standing there unshakable through the centuries, symbolizes confidence in the Buddha¹s teachings. It is a vivid reminder of the Buddha¹s birth. If he had not been born and become the Sammåsambuddha we would be ignorant of realities. We would not know about akusala and kusala, about the way to develop understanding of realities. We went to Bodhgaya where the Buddha attained enlightenment, to Saranath where he held his first sermon, and to Kusinåra where he passed finally away. We also visited Såvatthí where the Buddha spent many rainy seasons and Vesålí where Mahåpajåpatí was ordained as the first bhikkhuní. We visited Råjagaha where we climbed the Vultures¹ Peak, and the Bamboo Grove where he pronounced the Patimokkha, the Rules of Discipline for the monks. Here the bhikkhu who accompanied us chanted part of the Patimokkha proclaimed here and explained that therefore the first monastery was actually established there. We circumambulated with candles the Stupa that marked the different places and in Bodhgaya we went around the Bodhi tree, and at all these places we recollected the Buddha¹s great compassion for us. Throughout the years I have visited the holy places many times, but this time I noticed that they had been greatly improved by the Archeological Survey of the Government of India, and that the parks around them were well kept. The atmosphere was very peaceful and inviting to discussing and considering the Dhamma. We had Dhamma discussions in English as well as in Thai. In Bodhgaya we had a Dhamma discussion in Thai near the Bodhi tree, next to the Stupa that marks the cremation place of the great Commentator Buddhaghosa. I paid respect here and I thought with gratefulness of Buddhaghosa who promoted the preservation of the Tipitaka in using the original commentaries that give clear explanations of the texts. Here, Acharn Sujin emphasized that we should not merely think of the words of the texts, but that we should have firm understanding of the characteristics of realities that appear. We should not dwell on the past that has gone already, nor think of the future that has not come yet. There can be awareness and understanding of the dhammas appearing at this moment. **** Nina. 40874 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Dear Sarah, It is very good for me you hammer on this point. op 10-01-2005 09:41 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: Back to the location issue. When people ask as you do here, invariably > there is an idea of cittas (and cetasikas) being in a place or location > and I don’t think we can talk about namas being in or on any place’. > > RobK picked me up on this and it’s true as he says that we can talk about > cittas arising at a base such as eye-base or heart-base, but what this > really means, as I understand it, is that all cittas in the sensuous > realm arise dependent on a base (vatthu), a rupa, in order to experience > an object N: We are inclined to think of eyesense when we consider seeing, or are aware of seeing. Good reminder. Seeing is dependent on eyesense. And this you expressed very clearly: And also this, emphasizing the importance of study: < If we don’t clearly understand the distinction between namas and rupas and if we confuse say seeing itself with the pasada rupa of eye-sense or don’t appreciate that it’s conditioned by the impingement of visible object on that eye-sense, we will always have some strange ideas about what is experienced and what experiences. This is why we need to really understand what is the meaning of terms like vatthu (base), arammana (object) and citta (consciousness). The Abhidhamma and all the details we read about are just about these presently arising dhammas.> We have to watch out for strange ideas which are bound to appear, so long as we are not sotapannas. They creep in before we know! Thank you, Nina. 40875 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Dear Tep, I just touch on a few points, adding a little more to what others explained. op 10-01-2005 01:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > In your message #40797 (as shown above) you mentioned that "dry > insight" workers (sukkha vipassaka) could attain "enlightenment" > without a jhana as a requisite. In the previous posts you kindly > explained that samadhi could be developed without samatha-bhavana > (e.g. through Buddhanussati). N: this is somewhat different. I spoke about short meditations for all occasions. I did not mean developing anything, developing samatha. There are more like some moments of silent reflection, that is all. It happens by conditions. There is another meditation and that is dhammanussati: considering the dhamma. This we do all the time when studying, listening, talking like now. etc. ...snipped. > > T: I understand that concentration (samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) are > two factors of the 7 factors of awakening (bojjhanga), which are > developed "dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on > dispassion(viraga), dependent on cessation(nirodha), resulting in > letting go(patinissagga)" [SN LIV.2]. The seclusion, and anupassana > on dispassion and cessation are not easy for most worldlings to do. N: There are three kinds of seclusion, viveka; kaya viveka, citta viveka, upadhi viveka. The first one (by body) is living solitary. The second one: this depends on the citta, it can be any time, any place. Think of Migasala: dwelling alone or dwelling with a mate. Upadhi: this is connected with eradication. upadhi: the substratum of existence. T: In addition, the bojjhanga factors are at the higher level than both > samatha bhavana (e.g. the anapanasati bhavana) and the four > foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), according to SN LIV.13, > Ananda Sutta. But your statement above makes the development of > the two bojjhanga factors sounds so easy. N: I have to look at the sutta again, it is late now (for me). All bhojjhangas develop together with vipassana, with satipatthana which I consider the same as vipassana. We do not have to think: now I develop this or that bhojjhanga. It happens by conditions. But I am not so far yet that bhojjhangas develop! Nina. 40876 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Dave, op 09-01-2005 16:28 schreef David Cosentino op dharmabum253@y...: > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > jhanas? N: Kelvin answered but I can just touch on a few points. Samadhi is ekaggata cetasika arising with each citta. When it arises with the citta that develops samatha it becomes stronger. It has many degrees. Htoo and Kelvin explained about the degrees when one develops jhana. When vipassana is developed samadhi also develops. It is one of the factors of enlightenment, and it develops together with all the other factorsas insight develops. These factors are not developed seperately, one by one, but all together. D: How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > experienced it and if it is not an object? N: This was answered by others. Nina. 40877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi Matthew, op 10-01-2005 00:43 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@y...: > I'm in agreement with Howard here (I think). If I "compare" myself > to a corpse, this is not a direct experience, it is a "story" or > "situation" -- samutti. N: Just trying to explain the difference, that is all. > Furthermore, I have no idea what a corpse experiences. I assume that > it lacks experiences that I have, but this is just speculation. I > don't really know what it feels like to be a corpse. N: It has no citta, just rupas, conditioned by temperature. >> Nutritive essence is like a lifesap that permeates the whole body >> when one has eaten food.(snipped) > M: Aren't we just talking about ideas > ("stories") from physics here? Albeit this is the physics of India > circa 500 B.C., when most people saw the human body in terms of > "elements" like fire, earth, air, and water (or, in the Chinese > scheme, Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water). This all seems > conventional (samutti) to me. >N: I find it as real as anything. This is for all times, as I said to Howard. Nina. 40878 From: David Cosentino Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Has anyone here attained samadhi without passing through the jhanas? Is there any actual evidence other than scriptural evidence that samadhi can be attained without passing through the jhanas? I think it's impossible. It seems to me states of bliss happen naturally and without effort. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Dave, > op 09-01-2005 16:28 schreef David Cosentino op > dharmabum253@y...: > > > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > > jhanas? > N: Kelvin answered but I can just touch on a few > points. > Samadhi is ekaggata cetasika arising with each > citta. When it arises with > the citta that develops samatha it becomes stronger. > It has many degrees. > Htoo and Kelvin explained about the degrees when one > develops jhana. > When vipassana is developed samadhi also develops. <....> 40879 From: Andrew Levin Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL (& RobK), > But Sarah, you left out of your post nearly everything to do with my mindful walks and how it is or is not possible, or what are the benefits of, or how one can progress with, being mindful of nama and rupa back-to-back so that it looks like there is mindfulness of everything! Certainly you still hold your views, so I would like to see if we could come to some sort of agreement about how it may work or may not work - or at least try - this was the most important point of how my practise may be moving forward. > "Thus should `clear comprehension through non-delusion' be understood here > as reviewing the aggregates, the bases, the elements and the conditions." Oh, well boy, that's a lot to review, I would never have guessed it necessary to have knowledge of all of these when reading Ven. U Silananda's section on "clear comprehension of non-delusion." What a task! But hey, it takes skill and skillful is good, right? > …. > ... > > Weird, I thought I've seen consciousness, and on a Buddhist community > > forum I visit, one of the top important posts is "Does anything exist > > other than consciousness?" So it appears other people have seen it > > too. > …. > S: Seeing consciousness can only ever see visible object. I tried to find > the post RobK was referring to of mine, but this is the only one that came > up when I searched for my name and `location'. The following may be > relevant for you here: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35637 > >S: I'd like to add a little more on this interesting topic. > > Larry just quoted from Vism, Ch. XIV > > "96. Herein, (34) 'eye-consciousness' has the characteristic of being > supported by the eye and cognizing visible data." > <....> > > "35)-(38) 'Ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness' [respectively] > have the characteristic of being supported by the ear, etc., and > cognizing sounds, and so on. " > > In other words, just as there cannot be eye-consciousness without the eye > or the particular rupa of eye-base, so too there cannot be > body-consciousness at any part of the body without the rupa of body-base > at that location.< So what is that consciousness that can cognize consciousness? Is there? If not, why does it appear that consciousness can be known? > …. > A:> OK. Best to know ultimate realities then, right? > … > S: Yes. If we don't clearly understand the distinction between namas and > rupas and if we confuse say seeing itself with the pasada rupa of > eye-sense or don't appreciate that it's conditioned by the impingement of > visible object on that eye-sense, we will always have some strange ideas > about what is experienced and what experiences. This is why we need to > really understand what is the meaning of terms like vatthu (base), > arammana (object) and citta (consciousness). The Abhidhamma and all the > details we read about are just about these presently arising dhammas. > > When there is awareness of seeing consciousness, there is no idea about > location, about eye-base or whether anything else exists. It's just the > nama which experiences. The same when visible object is known - it's > perfectly clear than nothing else can be seen and there's no confusion > with eye-base or seeing. It's just the rupa which appears at that moment. OK. So just being mindful is enough. > ... > > It explains that mindfulness is to be cultivated, developed, and > > enlarged, especially a factor of enlightenment, and that mindfulness > > of certain nama and rupa (such as four elements) will see craving and > > clinging wane. Mindfulness is the objective of the Four Foundations > > of _Mindfulness_ :0) > … > S: Also understanding with detachment from the elements , without clinging > or expectation of what will arise now or in future. The Buddha says, in his assurance of attainment, that one can indeed expect certain results, if the four foundations are practised according to instructions. But I wonder, have you implicitly accepted that mindfulness can be expanded in the way I've talked about? > …. > > Thanks Sarah, > > For being unbelievably patient with me as always, > > A.L. > … > S: Not at all. Writing to friends like you is a kind of meditation for me > as I think Nina has mentioned too. I always enjoy your comments and > questions a lot and find them very helpful. Thx also for sharing your > discussions with Kel and others here with us. A supportive community can > help provide all sorts of assistance in our understanding of Dhamma, I > find. > > I'll be glad for any further comments you have. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Sarah, just about the books, I looked at a few of the selections you listed, and I just don't have the money for them. I have sent numerous requests for materials to BPS and they have not responded at all. Besides, I am not too keen on studying the Buddha's paranibbana, etc, although it is good to know, instead I want to know what can be known to bring me closer to liberation. (Although the one on the thicket of views could be useful, and the commentary on the discourse on the fruits of the recluse's life looks quite appealing) Also, do not say I am very serious about Abhidharma. I still do not feel on the same level as posters here about it, and am only reviewing up to Chapter One in CMA, and am still uncertain about how it will relate to my practise. Enjoy talking with you, A.L. 40880 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:15pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi all, This sure looks like a touchy subject. I think we should keep in mind how each sutta starts, "Thus I have heard". It is a useful disclaimer to denote how the pali canon have been passed down to present day. Even the original's complete authenicity can't be guaranteed, much less english translations. Also we have to account for the audience the dhamma was given to. India during Buddha's time was made up for warring tribes. So his teachings relied on the people's knowledge of war, societal structure and farming. This was the most effective way to transmit the teaching to people of his time. So the words and the meanings also have to be understood in that historical context. Do they have the same meaning in present day India? Not likely, even worse for western cultures when the background is so different. How do we accurately and correctly account for colloquial usage? In Burmese, a lot of pali words have made their way into everyday vocabulary. When we started learning abhidhamma, we discovered their "real" meaning. It has taken sometime to relearn some words and my mom still struggles with it. It's a fact that human language evolves overtime and we can easily fall into the trap of taking things too literally. As others have said, the strength of real dhamma is it doesn't require a leap of faith. One can go and verify it by practicing and applying it. Only then will it become bhavana-panna and one obtain unshakable faith of one's understanding of dhamma, not because one is told but because it works! While the truth is universable, no doubt each person, even arahants have their own slightly different take on it. To say total belief in the current version of Abhidhamma or even the whole Tipitaka is required only alienate people. Real understanding should be natural, just part of one's progress based on one's own experience. Blind faith leads to blind devotion and that is definitely something Buddha warned against. I also like to think while there's only one path, it's more like a highway. There's definitely room for different ways of driving on that highway. - kel 40881 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Dave and Nina, Dave, hope you don't mind my butting in--your question below reminded me of an interesting passage in the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Cosentino" To: Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas > How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha > described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If > something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has > no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be > saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. (Anuruddha) [THE ANALYSIS OF NIBBAANA] "(62) Nibbaana, however, which is reckoned as the transcendent, to be realized by the knowledge of the four paths, and becomes the object of the paths and fruits, is called nibbaana since it has left behind (nikkhanta) craving, reckoned as 'weaving' (vaana). (Sumangala's Commentary) [THE EXPLANATION OF THE ANALYSIS OF NIBBAANA] "(62) Having so far given a detailed description of consciousness, mentalities, and materiality, now describing nibbaana, he states the words beginning Nibbaana. "To be realized by the knowledge of the four paths: by this he indicates that for the various noble persons nibbaana is something established by direct experience; becomes the object of the paths and fruits: by this [he indicates] that for good ordinary persons it is something established by inference. For knowledge that has a conditioned dhamma or a concept as its objects is not capable of cutting off and stilling the defilements. And as the cutting off of defilements, etc., is something that exists in the world, so it is established that there exists a single dhamma, called nibbaana, which is opposed to conditioned and conventional dhammas, which brings about the cutting off and stilling of the defilements, and becomes the object of the path and fruit. Andy by showing that nibbaana is established by direct experience and inference, he refutes the argument of those who erroneously take nibbaana as a mere absence [of defilements]. This is sufficient elaboration." I found this interesting and hope you'll find it useful. For those of us with confidence in abhidhamma this sort of detail is really invaluable, I think. mike 40882 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Of course this should've been "And by"--I didn't mean to attribute this to any of our Andys...! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "m. nease" To: Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas > Andy by showing that nibbaana is established by direct > experience and inference, he refutes the argument of those who erroneously > > take nibbaana as a mere absence [of defilements]. This is sufficient > elaboration." 40883 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:43pm Subject: Vism.XIV,130 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 130. But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant (Ud. 68-69). Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men. This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the perception aggregate. 40884 From: connieparker Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:14pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard Hi, Howard, Matthew, Nina, All, Nina: > Nausea, dizziness, all conventional terms to denotea situation with 'me' > in the center of it all. Matthew: I don't see how the sensations of "nausea" or "dizziness" are necessarily any more or less tied to stories about Self than, say, "hardness" or "seeing." One could just as easily think "my hardness" or "my seeing." Connie: I think nausea and dizziness being a megakalapatic sequence of rupas and the sanna/thoughts stringing them together automatically make them stories, just like the tree that keeps popping up here. Only a self can be nauseated. It takes a whole body to balance or dizz. There is no single characterisic described as I feel like puking or the world has just spun out. That's all me and mine. And I think we do just as you say with the rest: my hardness or my seeing without even being aware of it. Because we really don't know nama from rupa and we just can't get over self. Not just self as no Connie, but no anything I'm used to thinking of. I don't even know about cold. By the time I do, I've already given it a place... a context, a story... the hardness at my keyboard and hands, my cold feet or whatever. My ears were freezing by the time I got back from walking to the post office this afternoon and when I was thinking about it, I couldn't tell if they were burning or hard or what, but I think they were growing like Pinocchio's nose! Everything has to have some context for me so I can label it and that is part of my story making, not direct experience. Back to my big glacial ears, if I really was experiencing cold, that really would be huge. But still not big enough for there to be room for me. That one single characteristic we've labeled cold would be the sum total of existence at that moment. Not to say there was no experience of cold, but to say I quickly covered it up with my everyday blanket of my warm, cozy, conceptual reality. I have these ideas about what hardness and the other characteristics of rupas are, but all my experience is mine. The one I really have trouble thinking of even, is motion. How do you understand that without some kind of lasting atta-thing? peace, connie 40885 From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:50pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard Connie wrote: > It takes a whole body to balance or dizz. Actually, it only takes the labyrinth of the inner ear. Motion of fluid in the semicircular canals of the labyrinth determines balance- sense, just as vibration of the hair cells of the nearby cochlea determines hearing. Both are anatta -- until we start making up me- centered stories about them, but that's much further down the chain of signal processing, in the brain. Matthew 40886 From: connieparker Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:07pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard Hi again, Matthew, Connie wrote: > It takes a whole body to balance or dizz. Actually, it only takes the labyrinth of the inner ear. Motion of fluid in the semicircular canals of the labyrinth determines balance- sense, just as vibration of the hair cells of the nearby cochlea determines hearing. Both are anatta -- until we start making up me- centered stories about them, but that's much further down the chain of signal processing, in the brain. Matthew To speak of an inner ear or a labrinth is again, a whole story or body... an atta, like that other straw man further down the road. peace, connie 40887 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,130 Hi Nina, When you do the presentation on this section I would be interested to know if the commentary says anything about signs possibly being the root illusion of self. Are signs the only thing that is remembered? How do we see that signs are not self? I don't think insight into impermanence would work because memory hides impermanence. Possibly something to do with dependent arising would be the key, but I notice there isn't a sanna link in dependent arising. Also, could you mention something about sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha? This can all wait until you get back. Larry 40888 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:28pm Subject: Re: jhanas Hi Kelvin - I read your message # 40834 a few times over with admiration. It is very well written and it reflects your clear understanding of samatha and vipassana in the framework of the Abhidhamma. Thank you very much for this excellent reply. Kel: Again you can utilize breath to extend to cittanupassana or dhammanupassana but it's a harder transition. T: I agree. The Anapanasati bhavana in 4 tetrads is difficult to understand, especially after the first tetrad (the basic breath meditation). The cittanupassana and dhammanupassana extensions of the basic breath meditation correspond to the 3rd and 4th tetrads in Girimananda Sutta [AN X.60] or MN 118: "[ix] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [x] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [xi] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [xii] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind. "[xiii] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy. [xiv] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [xv] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [xvi] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment. [Endquote] I would greatly appreciate your explanation of the above two tetrads, such that it can be used as instruction for actual meditation. I hope I did not ask too much. Warmest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Happy to reply with what I know. > ... .... .... .... . > > - kel 40889 From: connieparker Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:45pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi, James, Sorry, somehow I can say something like 'dear friends', but Friend James or whatever individual I can't do without being reminded of Quakers, so please don't think I'm trying to be rude. James: Life Faculty is the force of vitality that keeps the other factors in existence in a living being http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/abhi1.html However, Nina in her other post makes the suggestion that life faculty is heat. Huh?? Now, I don't get that at all. ===== That def'n of jivitindriya is like I understand it: the cetasika that maintains the life of the citta and cetasikas arising with it, where life lasts as long as a moment of citta; also the rupa-jivitindriya is a kammaja-rupa that maintains the life of rupas arising with it. I couldn't see where in the other posts Nina suggested that life faculty was heat. Just that plant 'life' rupas were utuja rupas. peace, connie 40890 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:09pm Subject: Re: vasana of the arahat. Dear Nina (& Htoo, David, Mike,...) - N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides in a specific khandha. Citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sanna included. But I see no specific role of sanna or the other cetasikas. T: This answer is most convincing! Now it is clear that because accumulated vasana in the kiriyacitta directly conditions bodily intimation and speech intimation of the Arahat, that's why the other cetasikas don't play any role here. But the implication that vasana is undestructible still annoys me. What is so special about vasana that makes it "permanent", at least while the Arahat is alive? In general, does vasana acompany patisandhi citta to form a new life? Kindest regards, Tep ======= > op 09-01-2005 20:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in sankhara khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by the Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, so how come vasana still does? > > I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you think? 40891 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi AndrewL, --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi AndrewL (& RobK), > > > > But Sarah, you left out of your post nearly everything to do with my > mindful walks and how it is or is not possible, or what are the > benefits of, or how one can progress with, being mindful of nama and > rupa back-to-back so that it looks like there is mindfulness of > everything! …. S: Ooops! Andrew, when I read your posts, I highlight any particular questions you raise or sections where you ask for comments. Otherwise, I’m not sure if you’re just telling me for my interest or benefit or wanting feedback. If you put in qu marks, I’ll definitely respond! Anyway, as you’re asking for comments now, in brief, I think that if we follow any particular action such as walking or sitting in order to be mindful or attending to any particular objects – whether breath, elements or death, it’s bound to be motivated by an idea of self rather than an understanding of anatta and conditioned dhammas arising at anytime. Even if there is an idea of ‘being mindful of nama and rupa back-to-back…’ it’s bound to be motivated by attachment and desire for results, not understanding and detachment of what is arising now. The path is subtle and it’s not a matter of studying texts or focusing during particular activities, but of living naturally, developing awareness of any dhamma (reality) including the strong attachment for results, wrong views of self which arise and so on. I know these comments don’t appeal and that’s why I don’t add them unless requested!! Let me ask you - do they make any sense or not? The most important aspect of development or practice is the understanding and eradication of the wrong idea of self. ….. >Certainly you still hold your views, so I would like to > see if we could come to some sort of agreement about how it may work > or may not work - or at least try - this was the most important point > of how my practise may be moving forward. …. S: Yes, I’m very glad to keep exchanging and looking for agreement here. Even when we have an idea of ‘my practise’, I think it may be wrapt up in an idea of ‘me’. What do you say? . > > "Thus should `clear comprehension through non-delusion' be > understood here > > as reviewing the aggregates, the bases, the elements and the > conditions." > > Oh, well boy, that's a lot to review, I would never have guessed it > necessary to have knowledge of all of these when reading Ven. U > Silananda's section on "clear comprehension of non-delusion." What a > task! But hey, it takes skill and skillful is good, right? …. S: LOL. Yes, it takes skill – the skill of developed panna (wisdom) to understand that all there are in life are khandhas (aggregates) or ayatanas (sense-fields/bases) or dhatus (elements) and that these khandhas/ayatanas/dhatus are all conditioned, not in anyone’s control at all, even for a mini-second. Someone else asked about khandhas vs ayatanas and yes, they are different ways of explaining dhammas. Some may find it helpful to think in terms of khandas and others in terms of ayatanas or dhatus. They’re not just Pali terms in the texts to be learnt, but hearing now is a khandha/ayatana/dhatu and sound is another one. Walking, breathing,, the hospital, corpses are not any of these. So we can study and list different kinds of concepts, but the path will only be apparent when there is awareness of realities aka khandhas/ayatanas/dhatus …. > So what is that consciousness that can cognize consciousness? Is > there? If not, why does it appear that consciousness can be known? … S: Good qu! The present consciousness (citta) accompanied by sati can cognize and be aware of the citta (or any of its accompanying mental factors) that has just fallen away. It can also think about past cittas and mental states, such as the anger yesterday, but this is not being aware of it directly. Actually, citta ‘cognizes’ an object at every instant, whether or not there is any awareness. I may have misunderstood your use of terms. Let me know. …. > OK. So just being mindful is enough. …. S: Yes, being aware of a dhamma (reality) is enough and then gone. Just for a moment and slowly panna can begin to know what that characteristic of mindfulness is and when it arises and doesn’t arise. This way we’ll see there cannot be mindfulness all the time and none of the time by wishing for it. .... > The Buddha says, in his assurance of attainment, that one can indeed > expect certain results, if the four foundations are practised > according to instructions. But I wonder, have you implicitly accepted > that mindfulness can be expanded in the way I've talked about? …. S: I don’t read the four foundations as a list of instructions but as a description of realities which can arise by conditions and be known at anytime without wishing, desire or expectation. I also used to feel a desperate urgency like you do at about the same age too, but gradually I came to see that this is not the way ‘that mindfulness can be expanded’ and that following such practices or reading the texts like instruction manuals just led to more wrong view of self and desire for results rather than less. This isn’t meant to sound condescending at all, Andrew. Just to say, I understand and sympathise with what you’re saying and most teachers and writers will agree with what you’re saying. I believe your deep reflection and consideration on conditioned dhammas and anatta will provide the breakthrough, not the following of the Satipatthana Sutta as an instruction manual. …. > Sarah, just about the books, I looked at a few of the selections you > listed, and I just don't have the money for them. I have sent > numerous requests for materials to BPS and they have not responded at > all … S: Understood. BPS – always difficult. Forget email – post or fax is best and even then is problematic. No hurry for books – until quite recently, the only one available from the list was the Atth transl. We had none of BB’s works at all in the old days. Discussing, considering and developing a good understanding of anatta is most important. As I suggested before, try listening to the India audio (FREE!) and let us know any points/qus or comments that arise. Connie has just been doing this;-);-) … > Also, do not say I am very serious about Abhidharma. I still do not > feel on the same level as posters here about it, and am only reviewing > up to Chapter One in CMA, and am still uncertain about how it will > relate to my practise. … S: OK, I won’t say it….but just the fact that we’re discussing dhammas here together in detail and that you’re reviewing ch one of CMA speaks for itself. (I’d even say the same about other members here who claim to have no interest at all in abhidhamma;-)). No need to be certain of anything – just keep checking, exploring and questioning as you’re doing. … >> Enjoy talking with you, … S: Likewise and apologies for missing the target yesterday. Hope this addresses the points even if it makes it harder to find the common practice ground between us. I hope others will participate too. Metta, Sarah ======== 40892 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion .. Idiot Compassion .. Conspicuous Compassion Hi Chris & All, I think that both you and your friend raised good points here and also in the other thread on ‘Doubt and Confidence'. As you and others have said, we all have ups and downs. .... --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > When I was speaking to friends, pointing out the repetitive pattern > that we are all part of, one of them who knows I am a Buddhist, > said 'what would you do in this situation? <…> The friend then said 'what would the Buddha tell you to > do in this situation?' <..> …. S: As Nina said, the dhamma ‘can prevent us from going into pitfalls’. We may have read and considered a lot, but of course this is different from fully understanding dhammas which is of course the only way to remove the idea of self. In India, we discussed how it has to be our own understanding of the teachings, not the others’ understanding. So it’s important to keep asking, questioning, discussing and considering until it really is a firm knowledge being developed as I see it. In India you also raised many good, practical ‘Daily Dilemma’ questions in the garden at Savatthi (on audio in the first series under Savatthi)and I think the discussions are relevant to your recent posts as well. You wondered if some of the difficulties were cultural, but no, doubt, ignorance and dilemmas don’t have any cultural boundaries;-). We also discussed how when we feel dissatisfied, the root of the problem is often the attachment to wanting to know more, wanting to feel good or wanting certainty. I think Howard touched on this aspect of attachment too. I’ve transcribed some of K.Sujin’s (KS) helpful(imho)responses to some of your questions which were asking for advice with regard to dogs (and one special one;-)), social issues such as euthanasia in hospitals and so on.I know Joop and others would have enjoyed your comments. …. KS: “(The question is) what should I do? As Buddhists we live and develop understanding because we can’t be the world’s manager at all, but we can understand life as it’s conditioned for everyone because it has to be that person’s previous kamma. The result is there and it depends on the kusala and akusala cittas after the vipaka. “As much as we can do is to have metta and karuna and help to do our best, that’s all. Because you see that crying or even being disturbed by those situations is not the Buddha’s teaching at all. He saves us from all akusala (by helping us to develop) panna which knows and understands the situation." S: You rightly pointed out that we can't help being disturbed or upset. KS: “(When it comes), one knows one’s accumulations to understand the world, your own world, because usually we mix all worlds together, but actually there’s only one moment of citta and it keeps on thinking about people and things and worlds, but actually it’s your own thinking and when there is understanding, one can see whether at that moment, it thinks with kusala or akusala. “Just know or understand reality, (this) is the Buddha’s teaching. Not the others’ teaching.” …. [S: I think Phil also made a good point in reply to your thread when he said ‘We know that according to the Buddha’s teaching, people are suffering in this lifetime due to kamma. It seems terrible to say that someone was born to abusive parents due to kamma, but we know that this is the case. So again there is a conflict between conventional understanding of such issues, and Dhamma understanding, which might be doubt inducing.’] ….. S: A little later in the garden at Savatthi… KS: “No one can stop thinking, but one should know whether it’s kusala or akusala. When it’s kusala, you know what to do and how to help, but not by planning with akusala and no need to set up an organization or name, but you can just do anything you can (to help).” S: Earlier she also said: KS:“What about you (just) always do (good) and no need for others to know about (your) actions?” S: Later you asked about how a Buddhist should act with regard to certain social and political situations, such as voting for a Government involved in war in Iraq and sharing the responsibility and so on. KS: (It’s a) long, long series of kusala cittas and akusala cittas and vipaka and kiriya (cittas). Because no matter it’s the story today or in the old days, I go straight to the citta and cetasikas, because actually the name can be changed, but reality cannot be changed. We just call it Iraq or a different name, but actually what about this moment? Otherwise we’ll never understand the reality of this moment at all. (It’s) the same in the Tipitaka or before that or after that, exactly the same by kusala citta, akusala citta, and also vipaka or kiriya citta. So we’d better understand the realities, rather than the different stories.” ….. S: Chris, I’ve found it very helpful to reflect further on these reminders in response to your good questions. Please do post ‘Conspicuous Compassion’ and let us know honestly how these comments of KS’ sound – no need for any agreement! Joop and others may have comments too! I’ll sign off with a sutta which reminds us that the world only consists of the ayatanas, the ‘meeting’ of dhammas, empty of self. Metta, Sarah …… 35: 85 (2) Empty is the World “Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One...and said to him: ‘Venerable sir, it is said, ‘Empty is the world, empty is the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said, ‘Empty is the world’?” “It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that is is said, ‘Empty is the world.’ And what is empty of self and of what belongs to self? The eye, Ananda, is empty of self and of what belongs to self. Forms....Eye-consciousness....Eye-contact.....Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither painful-nor-pleasant- that too is empty of self and of what belongs to self. “It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, ‘Empty is the world.’ “ ========================================== 40893 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 95- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (g) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Ignorance, the first link, conditions saòkhåra , the second link. Saòkhåra are the kusala cetanås and akusala cetanås, the kammas, which are capable of producing vipåka. Saòkhåra conditions viññåùa (consciousness). Viññåùa, the third link, is vipåkacitta which can be rebirth-consciousness or vipåkacitta arising throughout life such as seeing or hearing. The Dependant Origination represents the conditions for our present life and our life in the future, thus, the conditions for the continuation of the cycle of birth and death. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40894 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Suan > > what you write here has all the earmarks of Nazi propaganda. > My way or the highway? Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself > and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's > approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely. > > I can't think of one good reason why the Abhidhamma Pitaka would be > considered the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself." But I can think of a lot > of reasons of why it wouldn't be. . I feel very little of the 5th > Nikaya is his actual teaching. >======================= Dear TG, If you look at Suan's message from another perspective you might feel differently One suttas in Anguttara Nikaya III.126 Gotamaka-cetiya On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali at Gotamaka Shrine. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. ?eMonks, I proclaim Dhamma with full comprehension, not without full comprehension. I proclaim Dhamma with causal connexions, not without. I proclaim Dhamma accompanied by wonders, not without wonders. Since I do so there is good reason why I should admonish, there is good reason why I should instruct. Well may ye be glad. Well may ye be satisfied. Well may ye be pleased at the thought: Perfectly enlightened is the Exalted One. Well taught by the Exalted One is Dhamma. Well conducted is the Order.?f So spake the Exalted One. And those monks were indeed satisfied and delighted with the words of the Exalted. And while this explanation was being given, the ten- thousand fold world-system quaked We can its significance because it is one of only a handful where the world systems shook. Howver, suttas such as this are less popular with the modern Buddhist and the kalama sutta, given to a group who were not followers of the Buddha is placed foremost and lauded as evidence that Buddhism is for free thinkers or scientists. The danger with this is that once someone decides he is a buddhist he believes that a 'true' follower believes nothing - least of all anything in the Tipitaka - and should experiment and adopt whatever views suit his disposition. This, I believe, is not the way to come to insight. Insight depends on saddha - without it there can never be understanding- and yet on forums such as this members will happily proclaim distrust of the teachings- as if it was a sign of a discriminating wisdom. But, I believe, this is only doubt and wrong view and the writer is actaully making kamma that will further weaken the roots of good. I try not to discuss this with many often as I genuinely fear that someone might say something even more damaging. Suan's expression of faith in the Abhidhamma , if taken to heart , could benefit many. I fear in the future very few will have the courage or wisdom to make Suan's lions roar. RobertK 40895 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: ... > There are many ways to nibbana is not in line with The Buddha > teachings. > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo Thanks for your poetic reaction, but I still have some remarks I didn't talk about nibbana and the possibility that there is a way to it; I said to think that there is more than one way to enlightenment. To me that's not the same. Let's not forget that is was a reaction to Suan's metta-poor message. Even for a 100% theravadin it must be possible to say that the Abhidhamma is composed years after Buddha's parinibbana. And the more for somebody - like me - who thinks parts of the Tipitaka should not be taken literal (talking about devas for example) and parts of it are not universal but representing the culture of North-India 2500 years ago (talking about rebirth for example). And for somebody who thinks other texts are representing the message of the Buddha too, for example Nagarjuna and the Heart Sutra. So for somebody who is very serious and sincere active with his buddhist path but who don't believe what he doesn't believe. Maybe I never get in (or should I say 'on') nibbana in this way but that really doesn't bother me for several reasons. One is I don't know what it is whatever other sentient beings tell me. Another is that I have no ambition, maybe being a stream-enterer is enough for me, I will experience how far I come the days or years I'm still on this planet. You say: "There is a single way and it is Noble Eightfold Path made up of 8 parts." I take the Noble Eightfold Path very serious but still say: it's one of the ways to express the buddhistic path. See for example the first sentence of the Saripatthana Sutta: "This is the only way … for the purification of beings" Metta Joop 40896 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Nina A week ago (in #40603) you said to me: "Then it is the wrong season to cultivate the limb of wisdom (bojjhanga or factor of enlightenment) that is tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. But the right time to cultivate investigation of dhamma, energy and enthusiasm." I didn't pay much attention to it but after rereading and realizing 'ethusiasm' was exactly what I was talking about, I'm doing some study about that factor 'piti', for example what you wrote about it, chapter 11 of Cetasikas To be honest, my first reaction when I saw that there is also unwholesome piti, to think: Oh no, not again. So I concentrate on the wholesome aspects of it; I said it before: I don't know if the dichotomy good - evil really exists, it's a projection of the human mind. When I have question as a result of this study, I come back to this topic. Metta Joop 40897 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi Dan, Kel (& James)., --- "Dan D." wrote: > A very quick check-in with DSG... It's great to see such fervent (and > growing) activity still going on here--about 50% more posts per month > than when I began posting several years ago. You run a great > discussion group, Sarah and Jon. Keep up the good work! … S: Always good to see you checking in Dan, though I confess to also adopting ‘brace’ position;-);-). Thx for the kind words. Honestly speaking, it just runs itself these days for the most part and we’re able to sit back and leave any minor probs to all the members here to sort out. As James once commented with his usual diplomatic skills (j/k James;-)), it’s even better when Jon and I go away;-). … > > Sarah, I think James is right about your misquoting of Buddha. I > wouldn't think you'd do so intentionally, but your ellipses— …. S: OK, Ok – I certainly won’t argue the point if I’m up against you AND James!! Thx for spelling it out for me. Even then, I had to read it three times to see how it could have been mis-read, but finally the penny did drop;-). In fairness, looking back at #40576 and the earlier similar quote with more detail clearly stating it is the views that refer to the past not the bhikkhus, I don’t think I committed any great crime…..but I’ll try to be more careful of those ellipses in future and apologies to James. .... >…But I think you are right, Sarah, that the sutta is universal. …. S: Always a relief to find some common ground with you, Dan. I thought Kel made an excellent comment when he said: K:>ascestic = "samana" (one endeavouring to extinguish the passions) brahmin = "brahmana" (a person leading a pure, stainless and ascetic life) Those definitions seem to suggest people who are trying to find the way out of samsara outside of just Buddha's time period. So for anyone striving to find the truth, the wrong views enumerated are all the possible mistakes they can make due to their improper or partial understanding of the truth. I myself was taught there are 62 wrong views and always figured it didn't matter what they are as long as I under the right view.< …. S (Btw, Kel, did you see the reference in the Udana passage to samana and brahmana which I posted yest. In the vasana thread?). I didn’t pursue the thread further because both James and I had already been discussing for quite some time and I don’t think there’s much point in analyzing wrong views. Without the commentary’s help, I’d find it quite impossible anyway. For example, I discussed Dighanakka’s wrong view with a friend of the same name. In the comy it mentioned it was an annihilationist view, but I wouldn’t have known. Better to look at right views and what we can learn from them. I also think that James and others may have a point that we can say there are an indefinite number of wrong views – no need to number. BUT, as the text suggests, if we had enough wisdom we might see that they all fall under these categories which only a Buddha could enumerate. (Joop, these are views related to truths or dhammas. Views about democracy in Burma are not included in ditthi, unless one had the idea that this question ‘Is there or is there not democracy’ really pointed to truths about dhammas. If you wish to pursue that, I’ll definitely have to ask Dan to step in for more than a moment;-) As for the wrong views discussed in the Katthavatthu, we can see that they all come back to wrong views based on an atta belief. No need to pigeon-hole them in the 62 unless one wishes to do so, of course). Kel, I also liked your posts on the sotapanna, anagami etc very much. #40566 on sotapannas: “They can carry on normal lives; get married, have kids and what have you.” James, I enjoyed our long thread very much and learnt from it inc. those wretched ellipses…..;-). Metta, Sarah ==== 40898 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear TGrand, Howard, Nina, Mike, Htoo, Joop and all How are you? TG wrote: "No offense, but what you write here has all the earmarks of Nazi propaganda. My way or the highway? Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely." I wonder if you read my post carefully as you seemed to miss the point I stressed in the post. The main point I made was to distinguish between the two types of human behaviours. One behaviour is to make speculative negative verbalizing about things, for example, Abhidhamma in this case while the other behaviour is to do things, for example, to practice Abhidhamma in the sense of actually learning, testing and experimenting it. Here is as I put it in my post: "Instead of engaging in speculative negative criticism and exclusion of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the genuine practitioners of Dhamma would certainly learn and try out the teachings of Abhidhamma as best they can according to their capacity. They would be testing and experimenting the abhidhamma teachings to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things (Lokadhaatu), for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method." Yet, you wrote: "but what you write here... Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely." I think you overlooked the paragraph I just quoted from my post. Or do you understand it? If so, please analyse it for all of us? When you analyse what I wrote, you will discover that it has nothing to do with blind faith and dangerous religious zeal as you seemed to want to accuse me of. You also wrote: "TRUTH is the hallmark of an aspiring Buddhist or truth investigator. Claiming something to be true that, in fact, is not known to be true, is a dangerous and untruthful approach IMO." That is exactly what my post stressed by inference. By deduction from my writing, we get the following. Claiming Abhidhamma as a later development by mere speculative methods is a dangerous and untruthful approach. By implication, I amounted to writing in my post as follows. An aspiring Buddhist or truth investigator should be seriously learning, testing and experimenting the teachings of Abhidhamma "to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things, for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method." Remember that I did not even ask the readers to find out if it is the words of the Buddha. The issue of Abhidhamma being the teachings of the Buddha will be discussed later. You also wrote: " How many Christians will look you in the face and say that they KNOW that God exists or that Jesus came here to save them? A lot! And yet, they don't really know it. I don't see that what is written down below is any different from that." Are you sure? If so, you misunderstood my writing. Try to read it more carefully again, together with what I wrote in this post. And, you also wrote: "I can't think of one good reason why the Abhidhamma Pitaka would be considered the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself." But I can think of a lot of reasons of why it wouldn't be. And yet, I have no problems studying it or appreciating it." If you don't mind and are not too busy, can you describe your reasons why Abhidhamma Pitaka would not be the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself"? As I will be writing more on this thread, I could take into consideration the reasons you can provide. In fact, I should be asking Howard the same question. Howard could provide his own reasons or the reasons he obtained from other sources such as Bhikkhu Bodhi or Nyanaponika or lay scholars. You also wrote: "And yet, I have no problems studying it or appreciating it. And you have no clue as to what my practice is or how motivated it is." TG, you are amazing, indeed. Do you mean that you have no saddhaa in Abhidhamma Pitaka, and yet you have cetanaa for studying and appreciating it? As for your practice and motivation, how would we have an clue unless you tell us? :-) With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: Hi Suan No offense, but what you write here has all the earmarks of Nazi propaganda. My way or the highway? Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely. I can't think of one good reason why the Abhidhamma Pitaka would be considered the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself." But I can think of a lot of reasons of why it wouldn't be. And yet, I have no problems studying it or appreciating it. And you have no clue as to what my practice is or how motivated it is. I can't even claim that all of the Four Great Nikayas are for sure the Buddha's own teaching. But due to stylistic and content consistency and the difficulty of forging this type of consistency, I'm confident enough that the vast majority of them represent what he taught well. I feel very little of the 5th Nikaya is his actual teaching. TRUTH is the hallmark of an aspiring Buddhist or truth investigator. Claiming something to be true that, in fact, is not known to be true, is a dangerous and untruthful approach IMO. How many Christians will look you in the face and say that they KNOW that God exists or that Jesus came here to save them? A lot! And yet, they don't really know it. I don't see that what is written down below is any different from that. TG In a message dated 1/10/2005 6:34:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: But, those who view Abhidhamma as a later development are SPECULATIVE "academics" and not genuine followers of Gotama the Buddha and, as such, are not the genuine practitioners of his teachings. Do I have to remind a professor of mathematics like yourself that speculative doubting and negative verbalizing about Dhamma and practicing of Dhamma cancel out each other? Speculative doubting and negative verbalizing implies lack of saddhaa (confidence and trust) and destroys motivation (cetanaa) for practice. The serious followers of Gotama the Buddha and genuine practitioners of his teachings have abandoned indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Pali Tipitaka, (I mean Pali TI-PITAKA, consisting of Abhidhamma as the Third Pitaka). Instead of engaging in speculative negative criticism and exclusion of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the genuine practitioners of Dhamma would certainly learn and try out the teachings of Abhidhamma as best they can according to their capacity. They would be testing and experimenting the abhidhamma teachings to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things (Lokadhaatu), for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method. Anyone who views Abhidhamma as a later development and doubts its status as the authentic teachings of Gotama the Buddha will not have saddhaa in Abhidhamma. This lack of confidence and trust will remove their motivation for serious learning of Abhiddhama. Because they do not learn Abhidhamma seriously, they will lack adequate information about Abhidhamma. Because they are without information, they become ignorant and uninformed. As they are ignorant and uninformed, they continue indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Abhidhamma. In short, the uninformed and speculative academics and scholars, be they monks or lay people, practice the wrong speech (micchaa vaacaa). This leads them further away from practicing correctly the teachings of Gotama the Buddha. 40899 From: Egbert Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:15am Subject: The Tipitaka in that world where tsunamis happen Hi all, It was reported on FOX SPORTS, Jan 9, 2005, that: "JOCKEY Darren Beadman deserved a brandy when Magic Millions Trophy winner Tipitaka prompted owner John Singleton to shout free beer at the Gold Coast yesterday." (comm) a horse by the name of Tipitaka won a race somewhere in space and time, and the owner was happy enough to provide free beers for the rank-and-file gamblers. Furthermore: Any Australian watching the Channel Nine News last night would have seen a Sri Lankan thera in robes attributing the tsunami to the kamma of those involved. (cringe). Also: The Sydney Morning Herald of this morning reported that fundamentalist Muslims had proof positive that God was behind the tsunami, and that because of the disobedience of the people. Satellite imaging had shown beyond doubt that a certain receding wave at a certain beach had spellt out the name of God in Arabic. The politics of compasssion are unfolding at this moment. Whoever it was that said that it was good to have followers was both a fool and a fool. Kind Regards Herman PS At 14-1 odds, Tipitaka is good value 40900 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, This post is rather old, but before leaving I try to clean up files. My post is not quite complete as to text interpretation, but I send it anyway. op 31-12-2004 17:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > N: Mahanama was a sotaapanna, and that means that he could attain > access concentration with this subject. Jhana is not possible, because > this subject is too deep. > > The Buddha said to him, that he should recollect: > .... .... "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Sangha > while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, > while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are > resting in your home crowded with children.> I like this passage, it > shows that he can apply to this meditation subject naturally, because > the right condiitons are present. He had an unshakable confidence in > the Buddha. > > T: I think I understand the above to mean that recollection is a > meditation subject that can be effectively applied off the cushion, but it > cannot be used to attain jhana because it (recollection) is too deep. I > am not sure that my understanding is correct because a deep > meditation suject should enhance jhana better than a shallow one. N: The Visuddhimagga explains this. I find it understandable. Who can understand what enlightenment means, only someone who is an airiyan. And then the Buddha's omniscience cannot be fathomed. Thus, an ariyan can bbe successful with this subject, but he cannot attain jhana. T: I also would like to observe that your referenced sutta, AN XI.13, states > that recollection is to be developed after one has developed the 5 > qualities (indriya) that include concentration (jhana), not the other way > around. N: I am glad you draw my attention to this. Mahanama was a sotapanna. Through the development of insight the five indriyas develop together and they become powers, balas. That means, they are firm and steady, unshakable by their opposites. Confidence cannot be shaken by doubt, mindfulness not by forgetfulness. The indriyas and powers are included in the 37 factors of enlightenment, and these develop together, not in isolation or separate from each other, so that enlightenment can be attained. Nina. 40901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi Howard, op 10-01-2005 17:00 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > I don't disagree with you here, Nina. It was intentional that I used > the expression "SEQUENCE of body-door rupas" N: Yes, a sequence of rupas and we take them together, denoting them as nausea, etc. > Howard: > I am completely accepting of kamma and kammic consequence. The details > of these and their operation, however, are very complex and largely unknown > to us. The presumption of life faculty, however, is just a presumption. > Motion, heat, etc are observed. Life faculty is not, and least not by me. I do not > deny the existence of such a proposed phenomenon, but I also find no basis (or > need) for presuming it. N: Understandable, because it is a subtle rupa. I read about it, and understand just by inference. > Howard: BTW, the idea of plant life being solely a result of heat appears baseless to me. N: I subtract the other conditions for rupa which are kamma, citta and nutrition. Then only the element of heat is left. We speak about nutrition for plants, but that is more in a conventional, biological way. A plant neads moisture, true, but again, this is more conventional truth. . >> P.S. You have no fear of death. Can you elaborate on this, Howard? >> > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is not much to say, Nina. It is not that there is NO fear of > death. There is some. It became radically diminished subsequent to that brief > no-sense-of-self experience of mine close to a decade ago. A number of years > back, during a period of about a week in which I had good (but false) reason > for expecting to die soon, I simply was completely accepting and unafraid. > Whenever I turn my mind even now to the realization that at this very moment, in > actuality, there is no knowing subject at all, but just an impersonal flow of > experiential phenomena, there is very little concern that this experience > should radically alter or even cease entirely. N: As confidence grows, fear will be less. The sotapanna has eradicated all doubts and does not fear. A. Sujin said once that we fear what will happen to the self, but since the sotapanna does not hold on to self, he has no fear. >> How is your Dhamma group doing, what are the subjects? > --------------------------------------- > Howard: ...... > We've discussed a number of topics. The one we spent most time on was > dependent origination. That carried us for many meetings. Very soon we will > commence an extended study of the writings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and > comparisons > of his positions with those of other teachers and with what is to be found in > the Tipitaka itself and in the writings of Buddhaghosa. This project will be > quite an undertaking. N: This sounds like good topics, thank you for telling, Nina. 40902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vasana of the arahat. Dear Tep, op 11-01-2005 06:09 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or > speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are > conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides in > a specific khandha. Citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sanna > included. But I see no specific role of sanna or the other cetasikas. > > T: This answer is most convincing! Now it is clear that because > accumulated vasana in the kiriyacitta directly conditions bodily > intimation and speech intimation of the Arahat, that's why the other > cetasikas don't play any role here. N: But let us remember that cetasikas always accompany citta, they are implied when we speak of citta. T: But the implication that vasana is > undestructible still annoys me. What is so special about vasana that > makes it "permanent", at least while the Arahat is alive? N: It is just a reminder how tenacious all our habits are. T: In general, does vasana acompany patisandhi citta to form a new life? N: It is accumulated in each citta, thus also in patisandhicitta. Vasana is a detail, and I do not know much about arahats. It reminds me that they lead an ordinary life, though without defilements. Nina. 40903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nausea Hi Matthew, op 10-01-2005 21:03 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@y...: > I don't see how the sensations of "nausea" or "dizziness" are > necessarily any more or less tied to stories about Self than, say, > "hardness" or "seeing." One could just as easily think "my hardness" > or "my seeing." N: Yes, quite right. But at least hardness or seeing have characteristics which can be objects of awareness and understanding so that the idea of 'I' can wear off. When we think of a whole story of : I am dizzy, this story is object of wrong thinking. It does not help to lessen the idea of self. Nina. 40904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (228) Dear Htoo, When supernatural powers are being performed, what plane of cittas are there at that moment? Kaamavacara cittas accompanied by paññaa or jhanacittas? Nina. op 10-01-2005 17:57 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > The Buddha has to be fast because yamaka patihara or miracles do have > beneficial effects and to produce these miracle effects, He has to > switch on and off different jhanas with different kasinas very > quickly. 40905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,130 Hi Larry, op 11-01-2005 04:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > When you do the presentation on this section I would be interested to > know if the commentary says anything about signs possibly being the root > illusion of self. N: Yes, wrong intterpretation of reality is wrong saññaa. Perversion of saññaa. It is the wrong view that conditions the accompanying saññaa. When wrong view is eradicated saññaa does not interprete dhammas as self or permanent. L: Are signs the only thing that is remembered? N: Making a mark, sign or label is a way of explaining that saññaa marks and remembers the object that appears. Thus, it remembers the object that appears, whatever that may be. It may interprete it wrongly when it is wrong saññaa. L: How do we see that signs are not self? I don't think insight into impermanence > would work because memory hides impermanence. N: So, we should use the word object instead of sign. Saññaa hides impermanence so long as there is wrong view, wrong interpretation of realities. It attends to an object but at that moment its falling away is not realized, it seems to last. L: Possibly something to do with dependent arising would be the key, but I notice there isn't a > sanna link in dependent arising. N: That is to say: viññaa.na-paccaya naama-ruupa.m. Here included in naama are the cetasikas. so long as we are in the cycle there is citta accompanied by saññaa. L: Also, could you mention something about sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha? N: See dict. Nyanatiloka under nirodha. Non-returners and arahats who have also developed jhana and have mastery of all rupajhanas and arupajhanas, can attain temporal suspension of the bodily, verbal and mental functions:sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha. We read here about saññaa and vedana, but included is also citta they accompany. They are present in a residual way, they are very subtle. We cannot say they are absent, nor can we say they are present. Nina. 40906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life faculty Dear friend James, op 10-01-2005 19:56 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I think of the life > faculty as being `synergy'. The energy of the sum total of the > parts, everything you mention. Here is a definition from the > Internet: > > Life Faculty is the force of vitality that keeps the other factors > in existence in a living being > http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/abhi1.html N: This is a rather good definition. Synergy etc. does not appeal to me. A sum total may seem an entity. But it arises and falls each moment of our life. J: However, Nina in her other post makes the suggestion that life > faculty is heat. Huh?? Now, I don't get that at all. N: I did not say that. Heat is another material phenomenon. Nina. 40907 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: motion Dear Connie, op 11-01-2005 03:14 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > The one I really have trouble thinking of even, is motion. How do you > understand that without some kind of lasting atta-thing? N: Motion, pressure or oscillation. When you press your finger on your arm there is some resilience. Now this is a whole story to illustrate a characteristic. When we think about it, it will not be understood. It may appear suddenly to sati, but if not, never mind. Nina. 40908 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Dave, op 10-01-2005 21:45 schreef David Cosentino op dharmabum253@y...: > Has anyone here attained samadhi without passing > through the jhanas? N: Samadhi is developed so that jhana can be attained. It is the other way round. D: Is there any actual evidence other > than scriptural evidence that samadhi can be attained > without passing through the jhanas? I think it's > impossible. It seems to me states of bliss happen > naturally and without effort. N: Well, samadhi has to be developed on and one in order to attain jhana, but another question is who can. One has to distinguish what one takes for jhana from the true jhana. When the right conditions are fulfilled (and those are many) then jhana could arise naturally. Nina. 40909 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vasana of the arahat. Hi Tep, I liked Nina's answer too. A person's facial expression, posture and so on is formed to some extent by years of countless cittas; I think these also would be changed little even by nibbaana. I think the answer to your last question is 'no' but I can't document this. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:09 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: vasana of the arahat. > > Dear Nina (& Htoo, David, Mike,...) - > > N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or > speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are > conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides > in > a specific khandha. Citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sanna > included. But I see no specific role of sanna or the other cetasikas. > > T: This answer is most convincing! Now it is clear that because > accumulated vasana in the kiriyacitta directly conditions bodily > intimation and speech intimation of the Arahat, that's why the other > cetasikas don't play any role here. But the implication that vasana is > undestructible still annoys me. What is so special about vasana that > makes it "permanent", at least while the Arahat is alive? In general, > does vasana acompany patisandhi citta to form a new life? 40910 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Joop, I do know the reaction to Suan by you and other. And I do know your idea on Abhidhamma text. Not on Abhidhamma. But on Abhidhamma text. Once you asked me and I delibrately avoided to answer. At that time the moderator told me that I was fine to do so. Anyway whay we are here is to exchange understanding and knowledge and experience. Skill can never be exchanged instead. But to develop that skill we do need a good mental foundation which has to be the right things in all possible cost. When we are here and exchanging our thoughts we are using words and these again might some effect to distort our accepted understanding because of word per se. For example you said 'there is more than one way to nibbana'. [more than one has to be 2 or 3 or 4 or many many. So there are many ways. And there 'are' more than one way to nibbana.] When I saw this message of 'there is more than one way to nibbana' this apparently is not that true to say Theravadin belief. I included that poetic response because when that simile was used someone wrote to me offlist exchanging many many emails. But all he or she wrote to me was that 'There are other animals in the ocean. They may approach the shore in different way. That like there are many different way to nibbana.' That whole message already destroyed the simile. I know Suna is sometimes hard or a bit harsh, which might be because of saddha in The Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: See below if there are more for exchange of idea and understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: Thanks for your poetic reaction, but I still have some remarks I didn't talk about nibbana and the possibility that there is a way to it; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know you were not talking on nibbana. But I quoted one of your messages. That is 'there is more than one way..' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: I said to think that there is more than one way to enlightenment. To me that's not the same. Let's not forget that is was a reaction to Suan's metta-poor message. Even for a 100% theravadin it must be possible to say that the Abhidhamma is composed years after Buddha's parinibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not interested in composition. What I am most interested is the content. That is why I did not respond your question some weeks ago regarding Abhidhamma. When Abhidhamma is included in Suttas, those who are aversive to Abhidhamma are still complaining that Abhidhamma is not The Buddha's words and Abhidhamma is not preached to human beings. For me I always centre on the content. Abhidhamma words may come from Sariputta, Moggalana, Upali, Kassapa, Assaji, Mahanam, Yassa, or many other arahats. But all those words derive from The Buddha's discoveries. I follow the content. I do not have any interest whether Abhidhamma is written by who and who. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: And the more for somebody - like me - who thinks parts of the Tipitaka should not be taken literal (talking about devas for example) and parts of it are not universal but representing the culture of North-India 2500 years ago (talking about rebirth for example). And for somebody who thinks other texts are representing the message of the Buddha too, for example Nagarjuna and the Heart Sutra. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not have any interest in any Sutra. I tried to read Heart Sutra and I always have to stop even in the earlier point because of the content in that Heart Sutra. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: So for somebody who is very serious and sincere active with his buddhist path but who don't believe what he doesn't believe. Maybe I never get in (or should I say 'on') nibbana in this way but that really doesn't bother me for several reasons. One is I don't know what it is whatever other sentient beings tell me. Another is that I have no ambition, maybe being a stream-enterer is enough for me, I will experience how far I come the days or years I'm still on this planet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Quite understandable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: You say: "There is a single way and it is Noble Eightfold Path made up of 8 parts." I take the Noble Eightfold Path very serious ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will see whether you are serious or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: but still say: it's one of the ways to express the buddhistic path. See for example the first sentence of the Saripatthana Sutta: "This is the only way … for the purification of beings" Metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know that. Maybe word variation. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40911 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: vasana of the arahat. Dear Tep and Nina, I believe that Tep is a very good questioner. Now he is exploring vasana and why it is undestructible. In other thread Tep is trying to make out a mental map for actual practice of mahasatipatthana which is the only method to find Nibbana. His exploration is very good, I believe. Nina always gives good answers and I can sense that Tep is satisfied with Dhamma discussions here. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Nina (& Htoo, David, Mike,...) - > > N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or > speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are > conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides in > a specific khandha. Citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sanna > included. But I see no specific role of sanna or the other cetasikas. > > T: This answer is most convincing! Now it is clear that because > accumulated vasana in the kiriyacitta directly conditions bodily > intimation and speech intimation of the Arahat, that's why the other > cetasikas don't play any role here. But the implication that vasana is > undestructible still annoys me. What is so special about vasana that > makes it "permanent", at least while the Arahat is alive? In general, > does vasana acompany patisandhi citta to form a new life? > > > Kindest regards, > > > Tep > > ======= > > > op 09-01-2005 20:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > > I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in > sankhara khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by > the Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, > so how come vasana still does? > > > I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you > think? 40912 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: life faculty Friend Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friend James, > J: However, Nina in her other post makes the suggestion that life > > faculty is heat. Huh?? Now, I don't get that at all. > N: I did not say that. Heat is another material phenomenon. > Nina. My apologies. Yeah, you didn't write that. I read what you wrote here incorrectly: "Now this answers your remark above that you had no idea why Life faculty is together with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. Life faculty is not in a tree, here are only rupas produced by heat." I guess I read this too quickly and transposed "kamma" and "heat" in my mind and thought you had written that the life faculty was produced by heat. Sorry again. Metta, James 40913 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (228) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > When supernatural powers are being performed, what plane of cittas are there > at that moment? Kaamavacara cittas accompanied by paññaa or jhanacittas? > Nina. > op 10-01-2005 17:57 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > The Buddha has to be fast because yamaka patihara or miracles do have > > beneficial effects and to produce these miracle effects, He has to > > switch on and off different jhanas with different kasinas very > > quickly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, This is very good question. It is a hard question as well. To be honest I do not know. But what the text says is that BBBB..BBBMPUAGAb.... After gotrabhu there arise Abhinna-jhana-javana and then see everything with divine eye if it is dibbacakkhu nana, hear with divine ear if it is dibbasota nana, see all lives in the past if it is pubbenivasa nana, see what is inside of others' mind if it is paracittavijjanana nana, and many other. It is hard to explain. That is why it is said that there are areas that ordinary people should not appraoch and explore. 1.The Buddha matter 2.Jhana matter 3.Magga matter 4.Phala matter 5.Abhinna matter The Buddha did preach how he came to be a Sammasambuddha. For your question I will go back again to abhinnana because I have not finished yet. The jhanalabhi has to play jhana to and fro, up and down, serial and skipped, simple jump to big jump and then just before abhinnana vithi vara arise he has to do 'kamavacara kama sobhana mahakusala javana cittas' mounting to what kind of abhinna he is going to absorb. So before abhinna yes it is kamacavara mahakusala cittas with pannindriya cetasika. But at the time of abhinna it is obvious that it is abhinna javana vara. It is absorptive. My own opinion is that it has to be rupavacara citta and not kamavacara cittas, not arupavacara cittas, not lokuttara cittas. Thanks for your question. I would try to approach my teachers regarding this matter. If I come to know that I will let you know further. With respect, Htoo Naing 40914 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread (229) Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhinnas are difficult subjects. To achieve them it is necessary that all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas are attained. For a starter any of 40 kammatthanas works initially. 40 kammatthanas or 40 object of bhavana meditation are 1. 10 kasina 2. 10 asubha 3. 10 anussati 4. 4 brahmavihara 5. 1 aharepatikulasanna 6. 1 catudhatuvavatthana 7. 4 aruppa -------- 40 kammatthanas There are 7 kinds of object for samatha bhavana meditation. In total there are 40 objects. All these 40 calm down sensuous matters and hindrances of jhana or hindrances of magga nana. For jhana at least one kind is necessary. When calm down up to total clearance of all hindrances of 1. sensuous thinking 2. aversive thinking 3. wandering-worrying thinking 4. sluggish-inactive thinking 5. suspicious-doubtful thinking the practitioner has to switch on to one of 30 kammatthanas if he intend to attain jhana. Again out of 30 kammatthana 1. 1 anapanasati can give rise to all 5 rupa jhanas 2. 10 kasinas can give all 5 jhanas 3. 3 of 4 bhahmavihara can give rise to 4 jhanas 4. 1 of 4 brahmavihara [upekkha] only give 5th based on 4th jhana 5. 10 asubha can give rise to 1st jhana only 6. 1 kayagatasati can give rise to 1st jhana only 7. 4 aruppa can give rise to arupa jhanas based on 5th rupa jhana ---- 30 kammatthanas When 1st jhana is attained, it has to be practised to be proficient. And when become proficient he will know that vitakka and vicara are not that good for higher jhana. In that case if the original kammatthana is just for 1st jhana then the practitioner has to change to other kammatthana. Then 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana are attained serially. If the original was metta, karuna, mudita then for 5th jhana upekkha brahmavihara has to be practised. When 5th rupa jhana is attained and has been practised up to proficient level [not just initial attainer]. When this stage is reached, it is possible to attain all of 5 rupa jhana if practised. For abhinna at this stage all 10 kasina kammatthana have to be practised. Because 1. tejo kasina, aloka kasina are useful for dibbacakkhu 2. pathavi kasina is useful for iddhividdha [creation of 1000 different bodies or 100 different beings], walking on the water, walking in the sky 3. apo kasina is useful for disappearing down under the ground or the earth. 4. vayo kasina is useful for swift movement, creation of storm, movement, dibbasota etc etc. 5. nila kasina is useful for darkening or creation of a dark night or covering of things not to see by other. 6. pita kasina is useful for creation of colour 7. lohita kasina is useful for colour, light, dibbacakkhu etc. 8. odata kasina is useful for colour, light, dibbacakku, paracittavijjanana etc etc. 9. aloka kasina is useful for creation of light at night for seeing of other people or beings, for dibbacakkhu etc etc. 10. akasa kasina is useful for entering into the wall, the mountain, moving in the sky, flying in the sky etc etc. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40915 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies and Kathavatthu Dear Joop. You sent a message some time ago, and I did not finish my post to you. But today I just read Sarah's post with quotes from A. Sujin and I thought of you. Because of your former post I noticed that you were thinking a great deal of orthodoxy, heterodoxy, dogmatism. Sarah wrote today: < In India, we discussed how it has to be our own understanding of the teachings, not the others’ understanding. So it’s important to keep asking, questioning, discussing and considering until it really is a firm knowledge being developed as I see it.> And Sarah again: . Joop, I think when we keep this in mind, there is no place for dogmatism. The Buddha taught about all phenomena appearing through the six doors, he did not teach a set of dogmas you have to adhere to. As A. Sujin said, you have to develop your own understanding. We are still on our way to find out what realities are, and of course we also have wrong views. We are not sotapannas yet. Here in dsg we discuss, and we have different views. As Sarah also said, there is no need for agreement. I find different views inspiring, like a meditation. It helps me to reflect on Dhamma. The Buddha taught Dhamma in such a way that we can develop our own understanding. While we are discussing here, we can reflect on Dhamma and find out the truth ourselves. Nina. op 09-01-2005 10:35 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > I also have a personal interest in this topic: more and more the last > months I feel like the heterodox people monks on that council, > feeling not at ease with the dogmatic dominant culture, which later > evolved to mahayana. In fact I want to know: to which of the > heterodox views do I belong ? 40916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: enthusiasm Dear Joop, op 11-01-2005 10:32 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: I am always happy when you come back with questions and remarks. Just preparing for my trip now. An important point: to know that there is unwholesome piti, otherwise we mix everything up, we delude ourselves. Enthusiasm is not always so noble, it can be fake. It depends on the object: about what are we so enthusiastic? Carried away? It can be kust attachment. I catch myself on this. I am glad you ask. Good and evil: but this is not the same as sin and punishment. Just having a discussion with my sister about this, re Schopenhauer. My sister falls over this. I discuss with Lodewijk some more. Remind me of your points. As Sarah said, no need for agreement. We study the teachings, consider and check for ourselves. Nina. > > Dear Nina > > A week ago (in #40603) you said to me: > "Then it is the wrong season to cultivate the limb of wisdom > (bojjhanga or factor of enlightenment) that is tranquillity, > concentration, equanimity. But the right time to cultivate > investigation of dhamma, energy and enthusiasm." > I didn't pay much attention to it but after rereading and > realizing 'ethusiasm' was exactly what I was talking about, I'm doing > some study about that factor 'piti', for example what you wrote about > it, chapter 11 of Cetasikas > To be honest, my first reaction when I saw that there is also > unwholesome piti, to think: Oh no, not again. So I concentrate on the > wholesome aspects of it; I said it before: I don't know if the > dichotomy good - evil really exists, it's a projection of the human > mind. > When I have question as a result of this study, I come back to this > topic. 40917 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (230) Dear Dhamma Friends, After acquisition of all 5 rupa jhanas with the aid of all 10 kasina kammatthana, the practitioner has to practise his 5th jhana to a proficient level. When he does the exercises he comes to know that rupa jhanas are not free possible danger of sensual matter. That thought leads hin practise aruppa kammatthana. Aruppa kammatthana are kammatthanas for arupa jhana. There are 4 arupa jhanas and they are akasananca-ayatana, vinnananca-ayatana, akincanna- ayatana, and n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana aruppa kammatthana. After achiving 5th rupa jhana with 9 of 10 kasina kammatthana [excluding akasa kasina because as it is already empty pannatti it cannot work for 1st arupa jhana which will be akasa], the practitioner has to practise his 5th rupa jhana and he has to expand the object to cover the whole universe. Because of 5th rupa jhana power the universe is covered with his object. But because of his practice he comes to know rupa are not that good and they are still in the domain of possible danger of sensuous matter. This dispassion leads him to devoid the already expanded object and when the conditions are right and 1st arupa jhana is going to arise the object that covers the whole universe is voided by jhana power and there left just emptiness and that emptiness or space is boundless space. This is achievement of the 1st arupa jhana. Again this space is also close to rupa and he needs to ascend up further to avoid this danger. Otherwise the object that cover the whole universe will re-appear and this again might lead him back to sensuous sphere mind. This dispassion to boundless space leads him searching further object. As there is no rupa object he would not find anything but what he finds will be his mind attending boundless space. When this mind is seen, the seer is 2nd arupa jhana and one who is seen is 1st arupa jhana. Again this is close to boundless space. So he tries further and that 2nd arupa jhana cittas are disregarded and voided. He is targetting the emptiness or nothingness. When he is directed to nothingness then 3rd arupa jhana appears. Further when he searches higher jhana he would find that that 3rd arupa jhana citta is very subtle. It is hard to say whether there is sanna in that 3rd arupa jhana or no sanna in that arupa jhaana. When this happen 4th arupa jhana arises. But that matter is not that easy. But when achieve and attain all 4 arupa jhanas he has to practise to proficient level. This makes him create different jhanas at his will. When he is proficient in all 10 kasina kammatthana, all 5 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas he is quite ready to practise abhinna. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40918 From: Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi RobertK Couple of comments. The Sutta you posted below has nothing in common with Suan's remarks as far as I'm concerned. The Sutta below is uplifting an inspiring. Quite the opposite of my take of Suan's comments. This type of Sutta, as all, are very popular with 'this' modern Buddhist. I have no problems with faith/confidence, I think its a great thing. But I never heard the Buddha tell anyone to teach doctrine based on faith and or claim things based on faith that they didn't know as fact. One of the reasons the Suttas start with "Thus Have I Heard" is to "report" the teachings of the Buddha. This takes the onus of any "claim of understanding" off the "reporter." Faith/confidence and insight are reciprically developed. There are some Suttas that make it clear that "Insight leads the way." There is another that speaks to a "balance" between insight and faith/confidence. Others, I believe, speak to a certain measure of faith in order to first approach a teacher. This would be the very low level kind of faith that we might intrust to a teacher or Doctor that we didn't really know much about yet. Others I'm sure will know, but I believe Buddhaghosa says, in the Visuddhimagga, that too much faith without insight leads to feeble-mindedness. My memory might be flawed on that, but I think that's right. I would have to say that if I were a non-Buddhist and read Suan's remarks...I would be highly motivated to remain a non-Buddhist. (But that might apply to some of my remarks too.) ;-) TG In a message dated 1/11/2005 1:15:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: Dear TG, If you look at Suan's message from another perspective you might feel differently One suttas in Anguttara Nikaya III.126 Gotamaka-cetiya On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali at Gotamaka Shrine. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. ?eMonks, I proclaim Dhamma with full comprehension, not without full comprehension. I proclaim Dhamma with causal connexions, not without. I proclaim Dhamma accompanied by wonders, not without wonders. Since I do so there is good reason why I should admonish, there is good reason why I should instruct. Well may ye be glad. Well may ye be satisfied. Well may ye be pleased at the thought: Perfectly enlightened is the Exalted One. Well taught by the Exalted One is Dhamma. Well conducted is the Order.?f So spake the Exalted One. And those monks were indeed satisfied and delighted with the words of the Exalted. And while this explanation was being given, the ten- thousand fold world-system quaked We can its significance because it is one of only a handful where the world systems shook. Howver, suttas such as this are less popular with the modern Buddhist and the kalama sutta, given to a group who were not followers of the Buddha is placed foremost and lauded as evidence that Buddhism is for free thinkers or scientists. The danger with this is that once someone decides he is a buddhist he believes that a 'true' follower believes nothing - least of all anything in the Tipitaka - and should experiment and adopt whatever views suit his disposition. This, I believe, is not the way to come to insight. Insight depends on saddha - without it there can never be understanding- and yet on forums such as this members will happily proclaim distrust of the teachings- as if it was a sign of a discriminating wisdom. But, I believe, this is only doubt and wrong view and the writer is actaully making kamma that will further weaken the roots of good. I try not to discuss this with many often as I genuinely fear that someone might say something even more damaging. Suan's expression of faith in the Abhidhamma , if taken to heart , could benefit many. I fear in the future very few will have the courage or wisdom to make Suan's lions roar. RobertK 40919 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:08am Subject: Pilgrimage India, 1 c Pilgrimage India, 1 c We visited the Maha-Bodhi society in Bodhgaya and in Saranath. The founder of this society Anagarika Dharmapala performed an enormous task in restoring the holy places which were neglected and had become like a desert. He played an important role in the revival of Buddhism in India and Sri Lanka. Relics of the Buddha are kept in the Mulagandhakuti Vihara in Saranath, the building of which Anagarika Dharmapala completed during his life, not without great efforts in overcoming many obstacles. When we were in Saranath the relics were taken out of the shrine and we were given the opportunity to pay respect. First the monks chanted the sutta of the first sermon: the ³Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dhamma². The Buddha spoke about the Middle Way which is the eightfold Path and about the four noble Truths. I recited this sutta several times in the bus with Sarah and Jonothan. After the chanting, we were allowed to approach the relics and the Venerable Kahawatte Siri Sumedha pointed to the relics with a lotus to each of us and said: ³Here are his bones and some ashes.² The relics were also placed on our heads. We were impressed by the great devotion and eagerness with which he spoke about the holy places and reminded us that we should be grateful to have this unique opportunity to visit them. Our group also took part of the offering of food and requisites to hundred and twenty monks. This was an occasion for Sangha Dåna, an offering to the Order of monks. According to the Vinaya those who want to perform Sangha Dåna have to ask the Abbot to assign the bhikkhus who will receive food and requisites. When one performs Sangha dåna one does not think of giving gifts to a particular monk, but one gives to the Sangha. ***** Nina. 40921 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:08pm Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Nina - It has been less than two weeks since I posted the message( dated 12/31/04) which is now replied by your mail # 40900 (dated 1/11/05). But, thinking about how little time you can squeeze out from the busy schedule to answer it, I am contented. > T: I also would like to observe that your referenced sutta, > AN XI.13, states that recollection is to be developed after one > has developed the 5 qualities (indriya) that include concentration > (jhana), not the other way around. N: I am glad you draw my attention to this. Mahanama was a sotapanna. Through the development of insight the five indriyas develop together and they become powers, balas. That means, they are firm and steady, unshakable by their opposites. Confidence cannot be shaken by doubt, mindfulness not by forgetfulness. The indriyas and powers are included in the 37 factors of enlightenment, and these develop together, not in isolation or separate from each other, so that enlightenment can be attained. T: This is not the first time that I have thought about the problem of balancing the five indriyas and how to condition the other bodhipakkhiya dhammas to arise together for the very moment of enlightenment. Could you please elaborate more on how these 37 dhammas may be developed together, rather than group by group first and then summon them to arise together in a single moment? Importantly, how should the following sutta passage be understood? "For him -- uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. "Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight. [Majjhima Nikaya 149 :Maha-salayatanika Sutta] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn149.html Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > This post is rather old, but before leaving I try to clean up files. My post is not quite complete as to text interpretation, but I send it anyway. > op 31-12-2004 17:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > 40922 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:13pm Subject: Re: jhanas Hi Tep, I think the main thing is using the breath as an anchor. The rhythmic nature serves as regular reminder to be mindful, soothes and relaxes the mind quickly. In fact, you can use any rhythmic object in the framework of the body such as heart-beat (faster) but the breath is the easiest to observe all the time. > "[ix] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and > to breathe out sensitive to the mind. Kel: A mind that's more intense than the one observing the breath arise. For beginners, you want to note the attention is now on the mind and not the breath. Technically though, you don't have to note, the mind already knows. You can analyze what has arisen or go back to the breath. > [x] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out > satisfying the mind. Kel: I think this is piti, joyful interest. The mind gets more subtle and it's happy to be observing the object. Just observe it as another state of mind but meditation at this stage feels effortless. Don't get caught by sloth and torpor here with false sense of security. > [xi] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe > out steadying the mind. Kel: Due to happiness, the mind is very still and stays on the objects causing it to become more subtle. One very much want to keep experiencing this stillness but need to be extra careful due to extreme sukha at this stage. > [xii] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe > out releasing the mind. Kel: You can very well look at it as just knowing whatever mind arises. Some techniques add the relaxing and calming step explicitly before returning to the breath but it's a natural ingredient for any succesful meditator. You can observe the mind until it meets those criteria or go back to the breath as a mean to achieve those criteria. It really depends on your preference. Cittanupassana that I practice uses mind as the anchor itself. You just observe everything from the mind perspective but it's harder to get a handle on the mind initially. At the end, just learn the nature of the mind which lessens one's identification with the mind and will naturally let go of whatever mind that arises. From dukkha to sukha and finally upekkha, everyone has to pass through those stages. > "[xiii] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to > breathe out focusing on inconstancy. > [xiv] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, > fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. > [xv] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to > breathe out focusing on cessation. > [xvi] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to > breathe out focusing on relinquishment. [Endquote] Kel: This tetrad looks like a abridged version of the dhammaupassana in satipatthana. It's mainly about observing the characteristics of phenomena, " He also knows how the * which has not yet arisen comes to arise; he knows how the * that has arisen comes to be discarded; and he knows how the discarded * will not arise in the future". It's basically different way of saying beginning, middle and end. Instead you observe phenomena as inconstant/impermanent, decaying/dispassion, cessation/nothingness. The final step here is of course to break that attachment to self by relinquishing. I believe this is why some teachers say if you just understand one stanza or tetrad it is enough. No matter what object you take, you'll eventually reach the stage of seeing phenomena as just cause and effect relations where nothing exists to rely on or hold onto to. Attitude is the key to all this. As soon as one learns to accept the reality as it is, the whole perceptive changes and meditation is no longer a chore. > such that it can be used as instruction for actual meditation. > I hope I did not ask too much. Kel: Just remember I'm woefully unqualified for this task though I did my best. - kel 40923 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > wrote: > > > Hi AndrewL (& RobK), > > > > > > > But Sarah, you left out of your post nearly everything to do with my > > mindful walks and how it is or is not possible, or what are the > > benefits of, or how one can progress with, being mindful of nama and > > rupa back-to-back so that it looks like there is mindfulness of > > everything! > …. > S: Ooops! Andrew, when I read your posts, I highlight any particular > questions you raise or sections where you ask for comments. Otherwise, I'm > not sure if you're just telling me for my interest or benefit or wanting > feedback. If you put in qu marks, I'll definitely respond! > > Anyway, as you're asking for comments now, in brief, I think that if we > follow any particular action such as walking or sitting in order to be > mindful or attending to any particular objects – whether breath, elements > or death, it's bound to be motivated by an idea of self rather than an > understanding of anatta and conditioned dhammas arising at anytime. Right well don't the foundations of mindfulness themselves help you to see anatta and so on? My experience is that proper breath meditation can open this up for viewing (as described in the sutta, or its commentary, 'not dependent on wrong views, he dwells'). And I guess I would then ask you, since I am not that competant in Abhidharma, where does seeing the three characteristics fit into the bigger picture of things? Is it that they are understood initially only superficially, but later, near the end of the path, impressed deeply upon the mind? If it is motivated by an idea of self, it still seems OK to me as it will bring one to view the true nature of realities, and eventually get past self-belief (that the insight knowledges arise from the four foundations of mindfulness was only made clear to me later, this was a major stumbling block for me). So why did the Buddha even tell his disciples to practise these four foundations of mindfulness in such a specific manner for such a specific period of time? The practise outlined will clearly lead to whatever is necessary for liberating the mind. > Even if there is an idea of `being mindful of nama and rupa back-to-back…' > it's bound to be motivated by attachment and desire for results, not > understanding and detachment of what is arising now. No reason I couldn't do it with detachment, or at least non-attachment, especially if I'm doing it for an extended period of time. I would simply get used to the reality of being 'mindful in the present moment,' as Joe Golstein terms it. When I practised mindfulness of the four elements, or what I could of it, I was not looking for results, but rather to practise as well as I could. This should continue to be my goal. > > The path is subtle and it's not a matter of studying texts or focusing > during particular activities, but of living naturally, developing > awareness of any dhamma (reality) including the strong attachment for > results, wrong views of self which arise and so on. > > I know these comments don't appeal and that's why I don't add them unless > requested!! Let me ask you - do they make any sense or not? The most > important aspect of development or practice is the understanding and > eradication of the wrong idea of self. Isn't that only one of the ten fetters to be abandoned? Why should it be given highest priority? I have spoken to someone who I believe had made attainments, and he had done so by simple vipassana sitting and walking meditation, undoubtedly as described in a book (he even mentioned a few of his books to me as suggestions). If it is, then we can move forward trying to eradicate the defilements as the end goal. And even if not, can't we start with wrong view of self to practise what will show is there is no self?? > ….. > >Certainly you still hold your views, so I would like to > > see if we could come to some sort of agreement about how it may work > > or may not work - or at least try - this was the most important point > > of how my practise may be moving forward. > …. > S: Yes, I'm very glad to keep exchanging and looking for agreement here. > Even when we have an idea of `my practise', I think it may be wrapt up in > an idea of `me'. What do you say? > . > > > "Thus should `clear comprehension through non-delusion' be > > understood here > > > as reviewing the aggregates, the bases, the elements and the > > conditions." > > > > Oh, well boy, that's a lot to review, I would never have guessed it > > necessary to have knowledge of all of these when reading Ven. U > > Silananda's section on "clear comprehension of non-delusion." What a > > task! But hey, it takes skill and skillful is good, right? > …. > S: LOL. Yes, it takes skill – the skill of developed panna (wisdom) to > understand that all there are in life are khandhas (aggregates) or > ayatanas (sense-fields/bases) or dhatus (elements) and that these > khandhas/ayatanas/dhatus are all conditioned, not in anyone's control at > all, even for a mini-second. I remember reading a post here with the Buddha speaking of 'being skilled in the elements,' how when a disciple knows and sees that there are the six sense bases, their forms, and one other factor (can't remember), he may be called skilled in the elements. I might see it as more feasible than you because from one of my practise guides I have developed 'skill' in morality, even if the Buddha doesn't describe that -- though the skill is hard to maintain or even use some days, it's there. I just think of the Buddha referencing an 'untaught ordinary person' who is 'unskilled and undisciplined in their [true men's] dhamma' and how I have a minor amount of skill and discipline and how I might be able to develop more if I keep reading DSG and understand for myself some of the realities being described. > > Someone else asked about khandhas vs ayatanas and yes, they are different > ways of explaining dhammas. Some may find it helpful to think in terms of > khandas and others in terms of ayatanas or dhatus. > > They're not just Pali terms in the texts to be learnt, but hearing now is > a khandha/ayatana/dhatu and sound is another one. Walking, breathing,, the > hospital, corpses are not any of these. So we can study and list different > kinds of concepts, but the path will only be apparent when there is > awareness of realities aka khandhas/ayatanas/dhatus Hearing being a khandha where khanda == skhandhas == five aggregates? Certainly it's something that can be contemplated but I don't see hearing being one- regardless, the five aggregates are a subject for contemplation so you will find no disagreement from me about practising to know them - but walking, breathing, hospital are terms I use to facilitate communication about how these contemplations can be done, so I don't think they're irrelevant. I was contemplating in hospital, walking meditation is referencing specific contemplations the Buddha outlined andso is breathing. > …. > > So what is that consciousness that can cognize consciousness? Is > > there? If not, why does it appear that consciousness can be known? > … > S: Good qu! The present consciousness (citta) accompanied by sati can > cognize and be aware of the citta (or any of its accompanying mental > factors) that has just fallen away. It can also think about past cittas > and mental states, such as the anger yesterday, but this is not being > aware of it directly. > > Actually, citta `cognizes' an object at every instant, whether or not > there is any awareness. I may have misunderstood your use of terms. Let me > know. OK. This is kind of deep. I don't understand how citta can know other citta (:: kind of shaky, still having to wait for an occasion when he can go through CH I of CMA again before even touching II ::) > …. > > OK. So just being mindful is enough. > …. > S: Yes, being aware of a dhamma (reality) is enough and then gone. Just > for a moment and slowly panna can begin to know what that characteristic > of mindfulness is and when it arises and doesn't arise. This way we'll see > there cannot be mindfulness all the time and none of the time by wishing > for it. Sigh. Well I don't know enough about mindfulness as a mental factor to know exactly how and when it arises, but I do know it has arisen to completely immerse, or nearly completely immerse, my body at specific times, or had sati of the qualities of the mind (this is developed intentionally through vipassana meditation). Another thing. How are realities to be 'known.' It is through mindfulness, through understanding, or what? Because I have had an occasion of just slowing things down when it appeared that some of the elements and sense bases were coming into view (stuff described in MN 8 on right view) but I wouldnt say I had mindfulness. Would that still be good? > .... > > The Buddha says, in his assurance of attainment, that one can indeed > > expect certain results, if the four foundations are practised > > according to instructions. But I wonder, have you implicitly accepted > > that mindfulness can be expanded in the way I've talked about? > …. > S: I don't read the four foundations as a list of instructions but as a > description of realities which can arise by conditions and be known at > anytime without wishing, desire or expectation. I also used to feel a > desperate urgency like you do at about the same age too, but gradually I > came to see that this is not the way `that mindfulness can be expanded' > and that following such practices or reading the texts like instruction > manuals just led to more wrong view of self and desire for results rather > than less. > > This isn't meant to sound condescending at all, Andrew. Just to say, I > understand and sympathise with what you're saying and most teachers and > writers will agree with what you're saying. > Well I may see only through practise whether I just wind up with more desire but I have to think if the Buddha outlined how a monk practises four foundations of mindfulness, and referenced how they were practised in assurance of attainment, there's something to be said for practising in that way. I still want to use Abhidharma to facilitate a higher degree of understanding of what is going on at the lower level, though. > I believe your deep reflection and consideration on conditioned dhammas > and anatta will provide the breakthrough, not the following of the > Satipatthana Sutta as an instruction manual. > …. > > Sarah, just about the books, I looked at a few of the selections you > > listed, and I just don't have the money for them. I have sent > > numerous requests for materials to BPS and they have not responded at > > all > … > S: Understood. BPS – always difficult. Forget email – post or fax is best > and even then is problematic. No hurry for books – until quite recently, > the only one available from the list was the Atth transl. We had none of > BB's works at all in the old days. Discussing, considering and developing > a good understanding of anatta is most important. As I suggested before, > try listening to the India audio (FREE!) and let us know any points/qus or > comments that arise. Connie has just been doing this;-);-) > … Just got their catalog today. They have some nice selections, and are cheap, but for now, >=3 months for delivery by sea, or another letter about air-mail rates won't do. I've saved their catalog just in case, but it looks like Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, and Borders Books are my sources for the present and the immediate future. > > Also, do not say I am very serious about Abhidharma. I still do not > > feel on the same level as posters here about it, and am only reviewing > > up to Chapter One in CMA, and am still uncertain about how it will > > relate to my practise. > … > S: OK, I won't say it….but just the fact that we're discussing dhammas > here together in detail and that you're reviewing ch one of CMA speaks for > itself. (I'd even say the same about other members here who claim to have > no interest at all in abhidhamma;-)). No need to be certain of anything – > just keep checking, exploring and questioning as you're doing. > … > >> Enjoy talking with you, > … > S: Likewise and apologies for missing the target yesterday. Hope this > addresses the points even if it makes it harder to find the common > practice ground between us. > > I hope others will participate too. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 40924 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:26pm Subject: Re: vasana of the arahat - Htoo Dear Htoo - Thank you for your kind words. A sad fact is that people who ask good questions are, in general, unable to answer their own questions. You are right that NIana is gifted at giving exceptional Dhamma answers. Yes, I have been quite satisfied with the Dhamma discussions at DSG not only because of Niana, but also because of the excellent contributions from several other members (including you). Warm regards, Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep and Nina, > > I believe that Tep is a very good questioner. Now he is exploring > vasana and why it is undestructible. In other thread Tep is trying to > make out a mental map for actual practice of mahasatipatthana which > is the only method to find Nibbana. His exploration is very good, I > believe. Nina always gives good answers and I can sense that Tep is > satisfied with Dhamma discussions here. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 40925 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi all, My father's funeral will be held tomorrow. Please don't worry about condolences: he enjoyed remarkably good health and contentment for 92 years, and so, more than anything else, his funeral will be a celebration. I am not getting much access to the internet these days, but I notice Kel has replied to my latest message. Kel wrote: ----------- > I think our difference comes down to how we view practice. You see it as just merely living in the moment. > ----------- Yes, but to be more precise, I see the practice as *understanding* in the moment. ----------------- Kel: > I see it as something we have to cultivate and strive toward with a balanced-mind to be even able to see the present moment much less live in it. I think the mind needs training to have continuous sati which leads to samadhi then it's properly conditioned for panna. ------------------ But aren't you forgetting those passages in the Abhidhamma and the Suttanta where it is explained that right understanding comes first? Samma-sati and samma-samadhi (right mindfulness and concentration) are dependent upon the arising of samma-ditthi whereupon they arise with it (in the same citta). I think this is the most beautiful part of the Dhamma, but, tragically, it is the part that most Buddhists don't get. It distinguishes the Dhamma from all other teachings: In this Dhamma there is no self who practises, there are only disinterested, momentary conditioned phenomena. Learning about nama and rupa without worrying about 'my' nama and 'my' rupa is the way to go. -------------- KH: > > `trying to get there' (blindly or otherwise) is definitely not > a part of the Middle Way. There is no control over dhammas: right > understanding will arise only when the conditions for its arising > are present. Kel: Here's another difference. You automatically take striving or adverting to a goal as lobha. This is not so. ------------------ In the Ogha sutta, for example, the Buddha describes striving and standing still as 'not the way to cross the flood.' I think 'striving' was equated with eternity belief and 'standing still' with annihilation belief. They both entail the idea of a self. The Middle Way is the arising of panna to see the present reality. There is no self to guide the process, and there is no self to even to care whether panna arises or not. ------------------- Kel: > One has no control over the results and expecting a certain result thus reaction to failure is dukkha. Indriyas are rulers over others/opposites because they precisely have the power to set the right conditions. If one doesn't cultivate them actively and correctly then they'll be too weak or take longer. ------------------ I know you are using "one" as a means of expression - you don't really believe in a "one" apart from the five khandhas. But can your logic hold up to the full impact of anatta? Aren't you still relying on the idea of a controlling self - if only as a temporary convenience? --------- Kel: > This is especially true for people who are using viriya as their vehicle. They only assume 3 postures and contiously work 24/7. --------- That is new to me. Are you referring to a technique that is not found in the Tipitaka? -------------- Kel: > Your view is a bit too close to Pubbekata-hetu view, which was refuted with the following: Monks, indeed, in the minds of those who confidently and solely rely on the volitional actions done by beings in their past existences and hold this view, there cannot arise such mental factors as chanda (desire-to-do) and vayama (effort), as to differentiate between what actions should be done and what actions should be refrained from. "Monks, indeed, in the minds of those who cannot truly and firmly differentiate between what actions should be"done and what actions should be avoided, and live without the application of mindfulness and self-restraint, there cannot arise righteous beliefs that are conducive to the cessation of defilements. -------------- Excellent quote, thanks. It all comes down to how we assess the Buddha's language: Is it prescriptive or is it descriptive? No matter how prescriptive it might sound at the superficial level, a teaching of anatta can only be properly understood as descriptive. Read it again with that in mind. --------------- Kel: > Kusala cittas are as you say but they're not enough. They are there as foundations so one gets an opportunity to garner insight. For enlightenment one needs samadhi that is at least same quality as the first jhana, access concentration. ---------------------- Yes, but are you aware of the way of bare insight? Vipassana can be developed without training in jhana absorption. When Path Consciousness arises in someone who has developed insight without jhana, samma-samadhi occurs at the level of the first jhana. ----------------------------- Kel: > Insight can definitely arise in the midst of chaos but only if the mind is clear to observe it with equanimity. 'Though my body has pain, I will leave my mind unhurt.' ---------------------------- I'd like to make sure we are talking about the same thing: By chaos, I wasn't referring only to painful bodily vipaka. I meant akusala cittas with strong lobha or dosa. The immediately following mind- door process can take, as its object, one of the paramattha dhammas contained in the akusala moment. So there can be kusala citta, with or without panna, that experiences an akusala nama. And the next citta process can be akusala again - back into chaos. So, when someone is acting, conventionally speaking in an unwholesome way, no one can be sure there are not kusala cittas - there may even be satipatthana. I will find time to respond to the rest of your message later. Regards, Ken H 40926 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:00pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Ken, > KH: But aren't you forgetting those passages in the Abhidhamma and the > Suttanta where it is explained that right understanding comes first? > Samma-sati and samma-samadhi (right mindfulness and concentration) > are dependent upon the arising of samma-ditthi whereupon they arise > with it (in the same citta). No, that citta corresponds to magga-nana. I was talking about the steps to get there, not the goal itself. Please reference : http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL07.html *********************** Three kinds of Right View or Right Understanding: kammassakata samma-ditthi--Right View or Understanding that in the case of beings only two things, wholesome and unwholesome actions performed by them, are their own properties that always accompany them wherever they may wander in many a becoming or world-cycle dasavatthuka samma-ditthi-- Right Understanding of the ten kinds of subjects catu-sacca samma- ditthi--Right Understanding of the four Realities or the Four Truths. *********************** Here one has to believe in the cause-effect relation of one's actions. Without this, there's no compelling reasons for right thought, speech or action. Note it's listed in different order as when you separate it into sila, samadhi and panna. So first two kinds of samma-ditthi are precursor for further work as you say. However to say knowledge of anatta as necessary precursor to the right practice would be too restrictive. ************************ Personality-belief is estbalished in three stages in the life- continua of beings. (1) the first khumi is anusaya-bhumi (the latent stage). (2) the second bhumi is pariytthana-bhumi (the stage when the mind is perturbed by ditthi). (3) the third bhumi is vitikkamma-bhumi (the stage when ditthi becomes transgressive). Three-fold bodily action and four-fold verbal action are the vitikkama-bumi. Three-fold mental action is the pariyutthana-bhumi; and the anusaya bhumi is the ditthi which accompanies the life coniuum of being in the beginningless round of rebriths and resides in the whole body as the seed (potentiality) for the three kammas before they are actually committed. When objects which ause the rise of evil kammas come in contact with any of the six Doors, such as Eye-door and so forth, unwholesome volitional actions actuated by that ditthi rise up from the ausaya bhumi to the pariytthana-bhumi. It means that the sage of manokamma (mental action) is reached. If not suppressed in the manokamma stage, these akusalas further rise up from the pariytthana-bhumi to the vitikkama-bhumi. It means that kayakamma and vacikamam stages are reached. ** to destroy the three stages of sakkayaditthi ** Right Speech, Right Action and Right livelihood - the three constituents of the morality-group - are the dhammas to destroy the third stage of personality-belief. It means that they are the dhammas to destroy the three evil bodily actions and the four evil verbal actions. Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration - the three constituents of the Concentration-group - are the dhammas to destroy the second stage of Personality-belief. It means that they are the dhammas to destroy the three evil mental actions. Right Understanding and Right Thinking - the two constituents of the Wisdom-group - are the dhammas to destroy the first stage of Personality-belief. It means that they are the dhammas to destroy the anusaya-bhumi which has been lying latent in the life-continua of beings in the beginningless round of rebriths. ******************************* > I think this is the most beautiful part of the Dhamma, but, > tragically, it is the part that most Buddhists don't get. It > distinguishes the Dhamma from all other teachings: In this Dhamma > there is no self who practises, there are only disinterested, > momentary conditioned phenomena. Learning about nama and rupa > without worrying about 'my' nama and 'my' rupa is the way to go. *shrug* if someone truly gets it, they would be an ariya already. So regardless of being a Buddhist or not, most people are puthujjanas and definitely don't get it yet. It maybe a good way for your practice but not necessarily for everyone. > --------- > Kel: > This is especially true for people who are using viriya as > their vehicle. They only assume 3 postures and contiously work 24/7. > --------- > > That is new to me. Are you referring to a technique that is not > found in the Tipitaka? Sitter's practice, Vis II 73. > Kel: > Kusala cittas are as you say but they're not enough. They > are there as foundations so one gets an opportunity to garner > insight. For enlightenment one needs samadhi that is at least same > quality as the first jhana, access concentration. > ---------------------- > > KH: Yes, but are you aware of the way of bare insight? Vipassana can be > developed without training in jhana absorption. When Path > Consciousness arises in someone who has developed insight without > jhana, samma-samadhi occurs at the level of the first jhana. Yes I'm aware. So either it'll come along for free or one can practice it. Ledi sayadaw says this about sukkhavipassaka-puggala, this can be achieved only with great wisdom and strenuous effort. > KH: I'd like to make sure we are talking about the same thing: By chaos, > I wasn't referring only to painful bodily vipaka. I meant akusala > cittas with strong lobha or dosa. The immediately following mind- > door process can take, as its object, one of the paramattha dhammas > contained in the akusala moment. So there can be kusala citta, with > or without panna, that experiences an akusala nama. And the next > citta process can be akusala again - back into chaos. So, when > someone is acting, conventionally speaking in an unwholesome way, no > one can be sure there are not kusala cittas - there may even be > satipatthana. I know you meant all akusala citta, I was just using painful vedana as an example because that's a common experience for people. Yes there can be one or two kusala cittas amist strong stream of akusala. That's not the practice leading to enlightenment however. It just merely reduces the strength and result of the akusala cittas. I'm sure you know the part in Abhidhamma where it talks about supporting, interference and destructive kammas of one rebirth- citta. This is precisely how one tries to destroy the akusala that has arisen, still 3 stages to go: prevent new akusala from arising, let kusala arise and keep the arisen kusala going. What I was referring to is to have kusala javanas even with continuous akusala vipaka cittas in consecutive vithis. - kel 40927 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:25pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Friend Robert K., Robert: But, I believe, this is only doubt and wrong view and the writer is actaully making kamma that will further weaken the roots of good. I try not to discuss this with many often as I genuinely fear that someone might say something even more damaging. James: This is very nice of you to be so concerned about others kamma, but what if you are wrong? What if those who proclaim the Abhidhamma to be the teaching of the Buddha, without solid evidence of such, are the ones receiving the negative kamma? Actually, I don't think either side receives negative kamma from this issue unless their particular viewpoint is inspired by greed, hate, or delusion. I happen to believe the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, but I believe so because I think it is the truth. Really, there are two equal sides to this issue. Take for example this quote from the Internet: "The abhidhamma is a complex and sophisticated system of psychology developed in the early centuries of the Buddhist dispensation. Traditionally it is said to have originated with the Lord Buddha himself. The high regard in which this set of teachings is held can be seen in the tradition which holds that the Buddha first gave this teachings while visiting the Tavatimsa heaven and upon return from that realm each night he would give the summary (matika) to the elder Sariputta, the Chief Disciple foremost in wisdom, who fleshed out the details. Modern scholarship, on the other hand, generally regards the abhidhamma as a few centuries later than the suttas (discourses.) It is certainly true that whereas there is a high degree of agreement between the surviving recensions of the Sutta pitaka, the abhidhammas of the different schools are quite divergent, at least in detail and structure, even if the underlying principles remain the same." http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/abhi1.html James: Now, I could choose to believe either side of this issue and not receive any negative kamma, right? I am only interested in the truth. I think the truth is one thing and you think the truth is another thing. No negative kamma there, I don't think. Robert: Suan's expression of faith in the Abhidhamma , if taken to heart , could benefit many. I fear in the future very few will have the courage or wisdom to make Suan's lions roar. James: Now, this makes me question your judgment because Suan's expressions (more like rantings) were baseless and hurtful. To me, they seemed to be the expressions of someone whose `cheese has slid off his cracker!' ;-) Actually, in content, they were not all that dissimilar to the recent rantings of Icaro agains Russians. This makes me wonder because Icaro is also very knowledgeable about Abhidhamma. Hmmm…does the Abhidhamma make people crazy? ;-) (just kidding). Metta, James 40928 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Saòkhåra, the second link in the Dependant Origination, is cetanå in its function of kamma which produces vipåka, so that the cycle of birth and death continues.(1) Under this aspect cetanå is also called abhisaòkhåra. The prefix ‘abhi’ is sometimes used in the sense of preponderance. Cetanå which is kusala kamma or akusala kamma has preponderance in the conditioning of rebirth. Only cetanå which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta can be ‘abhisaòkhåra’. Cetanå which accompanies vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta cannot be abhisaòkhåra.(2) ... 1) Saòkhåra is often translated as ‘kamma-formation’. 2) For details see Visuddhimagga XVII, 177-182. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40929 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi Matthew, I’m glad to see that you’ve settled in very well here and you’ve been raising a number of very interesting points. Clearly you’ve been considering and studying the dhamma and Pali terminology for some time. Please let us know where you live and anything else about your background which you’d like to share. Just a couple of comments below with my take: --- Matthew Miller wrote: > >> Sound is a vibration. It is nothing more than a frequency and > >> amplitude of pressure changes which occur in time. > > This can be experienced. Take any random sound that you can hear > right now. This is saddaarammana.na, it is rupa, it is paramattha > dhamma, it is that which appears through the earsense and, as Nina > says, "it doesn't matter how we name it" (or does it?) What do we > experience as saddaarammana.na? Saddaarammana.na is a vibratory > frequency (experienced as pitch, high or low). It is amplitude > (experienced as loudness). Could there be a sound without pitch and > loudness? Would it still be a sound? …. S: When there’s awareness of the sound, the sound is just like it always is without awareness (i.e loud/quiet, of a certain pitch etc). But what is experienced is just sound. There’s no thought of vibratory frequency or pitch involved. As soon as we reflect in this way (even without words), they are concepts about sound being experienced rather than the sound itself. Awareness knows nothing about amplitude or pressure changes or scientific notions at all. It’s just aware of that characteristic experienced for a brief moment. That’s all. Yes, the name doesn’t matter either. … > > The abhidhamma literature repeatedly asserts that all sensing is > "serial" (e.g. that when one is hearing, the eye is not present). > This assertion seems counter-intuitive to me and contradicts my > "experience of realities as they arise at the sense-doors." Here's a > summary of the experiences I described which seem to contradict the > abhidhammic serial-sense theory: … S: Your summary raises many good points. As you say, much if not most of what we read in the abhidhamma literature is counter intuitive as is the entire Path. Usually there’s too much dust in our eyes to appreciate it, but occasionally we can see the problem as being the dust rather than the teachings. Just taking one of your examples, that of lip-syncing with the movie. Perhaps we can say that the different senses are always out of snyc, but because they follow each other so rapidly and in such fast succession it’s not usually noticeable at all. When the movie and sound are clearly out of sync, however, it is noticeable for anyone even on a conventional level. But this has nothing to do with awareness of realities. We think we see, hear and speak at the same time, but this is because we’re only mindful conventionally, not aware of the ultimate realities involved. Good points to pursue further as you’re doing with other friends. This was really just an excuse to give a belated welcome to DSG and to hopefully find out where you’re from;-). Metta, Sarah ======== > 3. You're watching a movie and the sound is not perfectly synced > with > the picture. The image of an explosion or of an actor's lips moving > comes slightly later (or earlier) than the sound. If the earsense > and > eyesense were not being received in parallel, if there was flitting > back and forth from hearing to seeing, how could we detect if they > were out-of-sync? > > Matthew 40930 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:46pm Subject: Pilgrimage India, 1 d Pilgrimage India, 1 d Acharn Sujin had asked Lodewijk to address the monks on this occasion, and he spoke the following words: Venerable Monks, On behalf of this group of Thai and foreign pilgrims under the spiritual leadership of Acharn Sujin Boriharnwanaket and the practical leadership of Mr. Suwat Chansuvityanant, I wish to thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dåna. We wish to pay our deepest respect to you and to the memory of the Ven. Anagarika Dharmapala, the founder of the Mahå-Bodhi Society of India, who revived Buddhism in India. We admire your courage to go forth from home into homelessness. You carry a heavy, almost awesome responsibility to preserve and to propagate the Buddha¹s teachings. Our world is threatened by war, terrorism, religious intolerance and fundamentalism. How can Buddhists contribute to peace and understanding? The answer is not obvious. From my discussions with my wife Nina in the last few weeks, four elements, basic tenets of the Buddhis teachings come to my mind. First: the anusayas, the latent tendencies, unwholesome inclinations that lie dormant in each citta. Why do governments and people never seem to learn from history and continue to make the same mistakes? The answer is, partly, ignorance of the anusayas. Knowing one¹s anusayas is very basic. We also have to develop the perfection of truthfulness in knowing and understanding our anusayas. Second: Satipatthåna. Last week Nina and I visited the place Kuru in Eastern New Delhi, where the Lord Buddha preached the Satipatthåna Sutta. The place is now clean, well kept and well guarded. Now trees have been planted. Sitting besides the rock inscription of King Ashoka, Nina read to me the Satipatthåna Sutta. It was very peaceful. Far from getting the full meaning of the sutta, I understood at least clearly that the four applications of mindfulness are not theory, but pertain to everyday life and basic human behaviour. Third: the four Brahma Vihåras of mettå, loving kindness, karuna, compassion, muditå, sympathetic joy and upekkhå, equanimity, which are the fundamentals of any peaceful society. The importance of the four Brahma Vihåras cannot be stressed enough. Fourth: good friendship and association with the wise. I wish to take this opportunity to thank Acharn Sujin and all our Thai friends and also our foreign friends, including Sarah and Jonothan Abbot, for helping us in trying to understand the Dhamma. From the immense wealth of the Buddhist teachings, these four elements come to my mind: understanding the latent tendencies, satipatthåna, the four Brahma Vihåras and good friendship and association with the wise. By observing and being mindful of these four elements and by living in accordance with these elements, Buddhists can contribute to peace and understanding. Therefore, venerable monks, whilst thanking you again for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dåna, we urge, we pray you to persevere in your formidable task of preserving and propagating the teachings. **** Nina. 40931 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi Mike, Connie & All, You’be both been giving some helpful details and quotes which stress the importance of distinguishing ultimate truths from worldly truths or realities from concepts or conventional expressions. Mike wrote: “So I don't think it matters whether we call them 'ultimate realities' or not, but it does absolutely matter whether we know the difference. It's awfully easy to go through life taking conventional insight (into concepts or pa.n.natti by any other name) for vipassanaa, a terrible trap.” ***** I also appreciated your quote from STA in #40755. Here is just the first extract without the comy note: 42) "Therein, when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of something that exists in an ultimate sense, such as materiality and feeling, this is a concept of something existent. But when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of something that does not exist in an ultimate sense, such as the earth or mountains, this is a concept of something non-existent. The others should be understood by the combination of both with reference to respectively 'one who has the six higher knowledges', 'the sound of a woman', 'eye-consciousness' and ' 'a king's son'." **** [Also lots more for anyone to see in Useful Posts (files section) under 'Concepts and Realities' and just 'Concepts'.] In the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta, (Bodhi, p.38)it refers to the four kinds of teaching by a Buddha. I referred to these before in a post, but skipped some examples. Now I’ll give the full detail as not everyone has access to this translation. I’ve just re-organised the detail for clarity: ... 1) a teaching that has dhammas as subject and dhammas as terms of expression (dhammaadhi.t.thaanaa dhammadesanaa) * Example given: "There are, bhikkhus, these three feelings. What are the three? Pleasant feeling, painful feeling, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling"(S.36:11/iv,216) - this is a teaching that has dhammas as subject and dhammas as terms of expression." ... 2) a teaching that has individuals as subject and dhammas as terms of expression(dhammaadhi.t.thaanaa puggaladesanaa) * Example given: “This person consists of six elements, six bases of contact, eighteen mental rangings, and four foundations” (M.140/iii,239) – this is a teaching that has individuals as subject and dhammas as terms of expression. ... 3) a teaching that has individuals as subject and individuals as terms of expression(puggalaadhi.t.thaanaa puggaladesanaa * Example given: “There are, bhikkhus, three kinds of individuals existing in the world. What are the three? The blind, the one-eyed, and the two-eyed” (A.3:29/I,128) – this is a teaching that has individuals as subject and individuals as terms of expression. ... 4) a teaching that has dhammas as subject and individuals as terms of expression(puggalaadhi.t.thaanaa dhammadesanaa) * Example given: “What, bhikkhus, is the fear of a bad destination? Herein, bhikkhus, someone reflects: ‘The result of bodily misconduct in the life to come is evil’” (AN,4:12/ii,123) – this is a teaching that has dhammas as subject and individuals as *terms of expression*.” …… Mike & Connie, thanks again for your posts and detail. Look forward to any more;-). Metta, Sarah p.s Mike, also excellent quotes on nibbana in #40881. Did you see Nina’s Vism #40583? It also had a note about the function of vedanaa being ‘to intensify (upabruuhana) associated states’. ========================================================= 40932 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Dear Charles, I meant to ask about this before: --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > I tried to argue that the Buddha also seemed to believe gods existed. .... Do you think that the Buddha also seemed to believe people existed? I won't say more as you've gone quiet and I'm not sure if you're reading posts. I was appreciating your discussion with James before. Metta, Sarah ======= 40933 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Htoo Thanks for your reaction. The linguistic aspects I don't understand ("there is more than one way" versus "many ways") but I'm not so linguistic oriented as you are. Htoo: " I do know your idea on Abhidhamma text. Not on Abhidhamma. But on Abhidhamma text." Joop: That's a usefull difference you make, but I can be more specific. Till now Abhidhamma-study helped me on my path. , in general and in my insight-meditation. It is the detail-study that give me problems. Htoo: "Once you asked me and I delibrately avoided to answer. At that time the moderator told me that I was fine to do so." Joop: I remmber I made some provocations in your direction, after your (not so nice) discussion with a Bhante on DSG, it was wise of you not to react (and not so nice of me to do it). Some I'm glad with your reaction now. Maybe we don't agree about some aspect of the teachings of the Buddha. And (that's another theme) we are different in the value we ascribe to detailed study of the Abhidhamma. A week ago I had a discussion with Nina about the danger, for me, in studying Abhidhamma Studying your Dhamma Threads for example alienate me from my spiritual practice. Below some quote from that discussion. That irritation is of course my being imperfect, not your fault but perhaps it's good that you realize that your (doubtless and proofless) threads can have that impact on somebody who had first passed the orthodoxy of Christianity and after that the orthodoxy of Marxism. I have experienced the last months that the more I study Abhidhamma, the more I understand the criticism of Mahayana towards Theravada - and that can not be your aim. Htoo: "I am not interested in composition. What I am most interested is the content. That is why I did not respond your question some weeks ago regarding Abhidhamma." Joop: I understand. Htoo: "When Abhidhamma is included in Suttas, those who are aversive to Abhidhamma are still complaining that Abhidhamma is not The Buddha's words and Abhidhamma is not preached to human beings." Joop: I don't understand. Is there somebody who complaining that the Buddha was not preaching to human beings? Not me: the only non-human beings I can imagine are animals; I don't know if the Buddha like Franciscus of Asisi ever preached to animals but if he did, than it's OK to me. And you know I don't belief that other non-human beings do exist. With metta Joop Quotes from 40757 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Studying Abhidhamma can be dangerous Dear Joop, op 08-01-2005 13:44 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: (snip) J: And: not always more than studying 'basic principles' are wholesome: > Buddhism (or whatever label of it was used) was a living, a dynamical, spiritual movement.....(Snipped).. > .... they made a system of it, in which nothing was forgotten..., in this > way "life", the core, got out buddhism as a spiritual path > by 'translating' the narrative style of the sutta's by a abstract style of abhidhamma. N: Here I put question marks. To me Abhidhamma is the essence of the suttas. Abhidhamma is life. But I do not try to convince you. I think that several people do not understand what Abhidhamma is. They see it as abstract, dry, bookish. J: So in this way I state: studying Abhidhamma can be dangerous. N: Here you have a point. If one studies in the wrong way, if one studies things which are above one's head, then it can lead to madness. The Expositor warns for this. The study should go together with the development of right understanding in daily life. Understanding of all that appears through the six doors. All that appears through the six doors, that is Abhidhamma. Nina. 40934 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:19am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Joop, Thank you very much for your clear communication. I think we both understand each other. I think we have not talked much. That is we have not exchanged for more than 12 messages. This time your response was very clear. I will reply a few of your messages below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: Dear Htoo Thanks for your reaction. The linguistic aspects I don't understand ("there is more than one way" versus "many ways") but I'm not so linguistic oriented as you are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. Actually I was a bad user of English and the computer. But Dhamma friends taught me through their exchange emails. When everything what we write is clear it is promising that all readers and even the writer 'at a later date' will understand fully including the essence in the messages. That is why I am trying to put a bit hard to others [which may sound rude_but my background will is always clear and cheerful to help people]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: [Htoo's old post] > Htoo: " I do know your idea on Abhidhamma text. Not on Abhidhamma. But on Abhidhamma text." Joop: That's a usefull difference you make, but I can be more specific. Till now Abhidhamma-study helped me on my path. , in general and in my insight-meditation. It is the detail-study that give me problems. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You may be right. I also found Nina's message to you regarding this. But I think 'by discussing what the problems are' there will be a way to overcome those problems. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's requoting of Htoo's old post: > Htoo: "Once you asked me and I delibrately avoided to answer. At that time the moderator told me that I was fine to do so." Joop continued: Joop: I remmber I made some provocations in your direction, after your (not so nice) discussion with a Bhante on DSG, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand and understood. Actually I wrote to Bhante privately. When I seemed 'not so nice' there was a reason. I must say a good reason. Example if I draw out is 'thina and middha are pannatti'. This is not true. That is why I posted a separate post on 'Thina and middha are paramattha dhamma'. This matter is not at DSG or triplegem or JourneyToNibbana or dhamma-list. It is in the message to Tep at Khanti Khema's site of 'Dhammasukha' where Khema is the moderator. She recently changed the style of her site and it is now better than before. But I think the chief is Bhante. As this is a possibility I am a bit reluctant to post experiential matters there. Sorry for extension outside of discussion. But this is just to explain why 'it was not so nice'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: it was wise of you not to react (and not so nice of me to do it). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you were fine to provoke. Because there are others who may respond you much more sensibly. Sometimes I seemed to harsh. Example is my response to Stephen at dhamma-list [sorry Mods for discussing outside matters but these help understanding and dhamma learning more sensibly]. I seemed to thrash Stephen by saying he is against The Buddha. I said so because he said 'the idea of 4 elements is outdated as there are 98 elements'. This is misunderstanding I think. The Buddha was not studying 'mass' of science. 'Mass' of science itself is combination of 4 [rupa]elements even though it is a single chemical element. He said 'outdated'. I responded that he was 'outdated' by revealing the recent chemical element that is element-118. But Stephen is a nice person and he has a good knowledge of Dhamma. Your provokation was actually good because that may lead to further research instead of blindly accepting things. That is why I said 'you were fine to provoke. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: Some I'm glad with your reaction now. Maybe we don't agree about some aspect of the teachings of the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. Sometimes Howard and me do not agree on a point. And sometimes Nina and me do not agree on some matters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: And (that's another theme) we are different in the value we ascribe to detailed study of the Abhidhamma. A week ago I had a discussion with Nina about the danger, for me, in studying Abhidhamma ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have read Nina's response to you. Actually it was good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: Studying your Dhamma Threads for example alienate me from my spiritual practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am just trying to touch all possible areas of Dhamma. These are not final words. Actually they are all just a starting point. When 'this starting point' is assumed as complicated, I feel a bit reluctant to proceed. We do have different perfection-potentials and different accumulation. When you think that 'Dhamma Threads' are alienating your spiritual practice, please just use it sensibly. Dhamma Threads are just a starter. You can put aside them and you can go forward if you think your own path is fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Below some quote from that discussion. That irritation is of course my being imperfect, not your fault but perhaps it's good that you realize that your (doubtless and proofless) threads can have that impact on somebody who had first passed the orthodoxy of Christianity and after that the orthodoxy of Marxism. I have experienced the last months that the more I study Abhidhamma, the more I understand the criticism of Mahayana towards Theravada - and that can not be your aim. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here 'doubtless' is external appearance. 'Proofless' is internal appearance. When I am talking in 'Dhamma Threads' I seem very confident. That is the way other people [readers] may think and it is external appearance of how Dhamma is deeply believed. 'Proofless' is internal appearance. You cannot see my internality. And equally I cannot see your internality. But I can see your 'externality' or expression that you said 'proofless'. This automatically proves that you do not have insight [that is you do not really see what dhammas are working in their actual terms]. And my saying does not approve whether my internality is right or not right. Even if I say yes, it is proved, the whole thing is still externality. Sorry for my new words 'externality' and 'internality'. But I hope this may help understanding on discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop requoted Htoo's old post: > Htoo: "I am not interested in composition. What I am most interested is the content. That is why I did not respond your question some weeks ago regarding Abhidhamma." Joop continued: Joop: I understand. >Htoo: "When Abhidhamma is included in Suttas, those who are aversive to Abhidhamma are still complaining that Abhidhamma is not The Buddha's words and Abhidhamma is not preached to human beings." Joop: I don't understand. Is there somebody who complaining that the Buddha was not preaching to human beings? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I was saying is that some people strongly say 'Abhidhamma is added later in Buddhists' Councils' and The Buddha did not preach Abhidhamma'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Not me: the only non-human beings I can imagine are animals; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is externality of yours. You are judging with your own experience. Here you may argue that if self-experience cannot be used how things will be justifiable to say without proof. Here again 'proof' seems that you want to see with your own eyes with your own mind etc etc. Regarding non-human beings, there are people who communicate with non- human beings who are not animals. You seem to like 'proof'. The proof is inside of you. If you can fulfil the necessary things and conditions you will see with you mind-eyes to those non-human-non- animal beings. For the first step 'can you stay arresting of thoughts?' When the surface water is violently shaking, rocking, vibrating, trembling there is nothing to be seen. When it stands still when [thoughts are arrested] there are reflections and they can clearly be seen. The proof is inside of you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: I don't know if the Buddha like Franciscus of Asisi ever preached to animals but if he did, than it's OK to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma preaching? This is impossible especially Abhidhamma. But The Buddha spoke Magadha and communicated with animals. When bhikkhus were not in unity The Buddha just left to a forest and there an elephant attended The Buddha and that animal fulfilled what The Buddha needed physically. When The Buddha left, that elephant died because of leaving. But The Buddha knew that would happen and He talked to that elephant compassionate words. Actually that elephant was one of Bodhisattas. Bhikkhus were not in unity because they argued in two groups. One is Dhammavinicchayas and other is Dhammakathikas. This division went up to deva realms and brahma realms. The Buddha just left and stay in the forest for the whole rainy season with above elephant. The Buddha spoke to elephant. But not Dhamma preaching. If you think that 'worldly things are Dhamma' then He might be preaching to animals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- And you know I don't belief that other non-human beings do exist. With metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. No one can change others' concept and acceptance. This 'no one' includes The Buddha, our Great Teacher. The Buddha as a good guide taught us so and so. But who changes the internality is ourselves. The Buddha will not create for you or for us. With mahakaruna he left all the necessaary messages. They do have influences but the final change is made by ourselves. So if you do not believe anything it is fine and it is you who does not believe. Equally if you believe again it is you who changes and becomes to believe things as they are. So the real things reside in us. Internality is inside of us. 'Attahi attano natho'. 'Self is self-refuge'. Again I remember a person arguing on this matter that there are only 3 refuges and they are The Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha. But the above message is that When The Buddha said 'do not kill' [the message] we do not kill [our own decision]. But this decision is related to the Buddha's message. You have your own right 'not to believe' and 'to believe'. I am not stick to -ism. There are people so called Buddhists. But when explored they do have rituals and wrong beliefs [silabbataparamasa]. When defined 'Buddhism' seem to fall under the group of religion. But it is actually mental-science and all can be proved internally with mental instruments like 'panna' 'vijja' 'abhinna' 'nana' etc etc. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40935 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:44am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Saòkhåra, the second link in the Dependant Origination, is cetanå in its function of kamma which produces vipåka, so that the cycle of birth and death continues.(1) Under this aspect cetanå is also called abhisaòkhåra. The prefix `abhi' is sometimes used in the sense of preponderance. Cetanå which is kusala kamma or akusala kamma has preponderance in the conditioning of rebirth. Only cetanå which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta can be `abhisaòkhåra'. Cetanå which accompanies vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta cannot be abhisaòkhåra.(2) ... 1) Saòkhåra is often translated as `kamma-formation'. 2) For details see Visuddhimagga XVII, 177-182. ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Does that part explaine sankhara, the second link of paticcasamuppada. The message is clear. But may I extend it? For arahats what happen to those links avijja and sankhara and vinnana. Obviously they do not have avijjana. But they do have vinnana. What is the middle in between them? With much respect, Htoo Naing > [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 40936 From: seisen_au Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Hi All I have a query regarding the avijja>sankhara links of Paticcasamuppada. My understanding is that kusala citta can not be rooted with avijja/moha. How then is it explained that avijja conditions kusala kamma/cetana/sankhara? Thanks Steve 40937 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: jhanas Hi Kelvin - Thank you for kindly responding to my request which asked for your perspective on the 3rd and 4th tetrads of the Anapanasati sutta, At the end of your post you cautioned : Kel: > Just remember I'm woefully unqualified for this task though > I did my best. T: I apologize for asking you too much: i.e. to do the task which I myself have had difficulty with. Yet, I thank you for trying your best which, I believe, is several times better than my best! So far I have asked several experienced people, monks and lay Buddhists, to explain this 4-tetrad Anapanasati for me, but none of the interpretations I have received are similar. Yours is another unique one. However, our continuing discussion plus helps from DSG members may help move us nearer to the ideal answer than ever before (i.e. I hope this learning process is going to converge to a 'point solution'). So please allow me to discuss your interpretations in message # 40922 a little further, if you don't mind. > [x] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, > and to breathe out satisfying the mind. Kel: I think this is piti, joyful interest. The mind gets more subtle and it's happy to be observing the object. Just observe it as another state of mind but meditation at this stage feels effortless. Don't get caught by sloth and torpor here with false sense of security. T: Aren't both piti(rapture) and sukha (pleasure, happiness) already taken care of in the 2nd tetrad (vedananupassana)? Please read the following: "[v] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture, and [vi] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure". [vii] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental processes, and to breathe out sensitive to mental processes. [viii] He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes. In the Thai version the Pali of the term "satisfying the mind" is shown as "abhipamotayam cittam", but I don' know what it means exactly. Perhaps, abhi = high or supreme, and pamotayam is from pamojja which means gladdening? (I know very well that my Pali knowledge is poor.) > [xi] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to > breathe out steadying the mind. Kel: Due to happiness, the mind is very still and stays on the objects causing it to become more subtle. One very much want to keep experiencing this stillness but need to be extra careful due to extreme sukha at this stage. T: It seems to me that both piti and sukha (= vedana ) have already been tranquilized in step (viii); i.e. "He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes" [ i.e. citta-sankhara patisamvedi]. I think citta-sankhara means vedana and sanna. If that is correct, then why does the yogi still have extreme sukha if the citta-sankhara has already been appeased? > [xii] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to > breathe out releasing the mind. Kel: You can very well look at it as just knowing whatever mind arises. Some techniques add the relaxing and calming step explicitly before returning to the breath but it's a natural ingredient for any succesful meditator. You can observe the mind until it meets those criteria or go back to the breath as a mean to achieve those criteria. T: I think the Pali of "releasing" is vimokkha which means liberation (signless, desireless and emptiness for the 3 liberations, but there are also the 8 liberations.). So it seems that in this tetrad the yogi must develop a mental state that is quite advanced. It is interesting when we 'listen' to what the Buddha said about Anapanasati in the framework of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness in SN LIV.13, Ananda Sutta : [1] "I tell you that this -- the in-&-out breath -- is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world". [2] "I tell you that this -- close attention to in-&-out breaths -- is classed as a feeling among feelings, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves ..." [3] "I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of confused mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself ..." [4] "He who sees clearly with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who oversees with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves ..." I believe that your interpretation of the last tetrad hits the nail right on the head: K: The final step here is of course to break that attachment to self by relinquishing. BTW: Do you have any relationship with M. Lwin, the owner of Triple Gem Buddhist Discussion group? Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I think the main thing is using the breath as an anchor. The > rhythmic nature serves as regular reminder to be mindful, soothes > and relaxes the mind quickly. In fact, you can use any rhythmic > object in the framework of the body such as heart-beat (faster) but > the breath is the easiest to observe all the time. > 40938 From: jonoabb Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:22am Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Howard First, thanks for pointing out (in your PS) that my comment describing insight as "something that arises of its own accord" was not intended to be read literally (it was of course intended to be read in apposition to the reference to a deliberate practice that followed). I should have said, "of its own conditions". --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and James) - H: What about bhavana, Jon? Cultivation? Is there no Buddhist practice at all according to the Buddha? J: Yes, there is bhavana (development), there is cultivation, but did the Buddha teach a deliberate practice as such? That I think is the question. We should not start with a presumption one way or the other just because we hold a particular innate view on the matter. And we need to look at the suttas and other texts as a whole. H: What about those suttas we talked about a long time ago pertaining to spiral development? (In that regard, please look at the entirety of message # 14360.) Was there no cultivation involved in that? J: Yes, there was cultivation. But again, the question is whether a deliberate practice was being referred to. What do you see as being the 'evidence' one way or the other on that? H: What about attending to the kusala and akusala mind states that arise, supporting the former and opposing the latter that the Buddha put forward as right effort - the "sense control" that the Buddha mentions? J: Yes, the Buddha spoke about this at times, but we need to have a particular reference if we are to discuss it usefully (otherwise we might each be talking about different passages/occurrences). By all means bring up a reference for discussion. H: Did the Buddha develop ten paramitas over the course of aeons randomly, with no conventional action take on his part, no practice, no cultivation? J: Well of course the Buddha took conventional actions, as does everyone ;-)). Not to be cynical, but did he have any option? The real question must concern the underlying mental state, and its development. But if we take our cue purely from the Buddha's life as lived, we get quite a different picture to the one we get by paying regard to what he said as a teaching, and I believe that could be a mistake. (The analogy is of the person aspiring to wealth or worldly success taking his cue from the career paths of the rich or successful, rather than listening to those persons' advice on the matter.) H: Did he become the Buddha by good luck?? Is there no conventional Buddhist practice urged by the Buddha at all? If I truly believed not, then I would go elsewhere, because the Dhamma would just become a nice story/theory to be debated on the internet, AFAIC ("as far as I'm concerned")! J: Are you saying that if there is no such thing as conventional practice then all is left to chance? If so, I think we need to explore the middle ground between these 2 options. Surely there can be kusala of any kind arising without deliberate practice. Your own experience in life confirms this, I'm sure. Jon 40939 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:59am Subject: Re: jhanas Hi Tep, After reading your response, I remembered I have Anapana Dipani at home in Burmese. As I was flipping through it, I thought to see if there's english version available online. Here it is: http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/wh43132.pdf Perhaps after you read it, we can discuss again? - kel 40940 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:08am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 97- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (i) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** All abhisaòkhåras or “kamma-formations” are a link in the Dependent Origination, they are conditioned by ignorance. Kusala kamma is still conditioned by ignorance, although at the moment of kusala citta there is no ignorance accompanying the citta. So long as there is ignorance we perform kamma which can produce vipåka; we will be reborn and thus the cycle continues. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XVII, 119) that the ignorant man is like a blind person: ... "As one born blind, who gropes along Without assistance from a guide, Chooses a road that may be right At one time, at another wrong, So while this foolish man pursues The round of births without a guide, Now to do merit he may choose And now demerit in such plight. But when the Dhamma he comes to know And penetrates the Truths beside, Then ignorance is put to flight At last, and he in peace may go." ... While we study the different aspects of cetanå we can see that ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40941 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Does that part explaine sankhara, the second link of paticcasamuppada. > The message is clear. But may I extend it? > > For arahats what happen to those links avijja and sankhara and > vinnana. > > Obviously they do not have avijjana. But they do have vinnana. What > is the middle in between them? …. S: Of course you’re most welcome to ‘extend it’. An arahant has of course eradicated avijja (ignorance) and no new kamma is formed (the meaning of sankhara here). There are no causes or conditions for rebirth and hence it is the end of the rounds and future life vipaka. However there will still be vinnana (vipaka cittas here) resulting from previous kamma. Have I missed anything? If so, please feel very free to elaborate further anytime. Metta, Sarah p.s I’m glad to see you and Joop having a friendly discussion on abhidhamma! As I suggested to you off-list , I think it would be better to go slower with DT – one new number a day (or 7 a week) is still a lot for most of us to reflect on, given the difficult content. Maybe friends like Joop would take more interest then, you never know! It’s good when you discuss or explain them further with summaries too. It’s the same with Vism or Cetasikas – they have to proceed slowly, I think, allowing for good questions like yours here. Good to see your other discussions;-). =============== 40942 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Hi Steve, --- seisen_au wrote: > Hi All > I have a query regarding the avijja>sankhara links of > Paticcasamuppada. My understanding is that kusala citta can not be > rooted with avijja/moha. How then is it explained that avijja > conditions kusala kamma/cetana/sankhara? … S: I think the installment just posted answers this. Avijja is the direct or indirect cause of all conditioned dhammas. Without ignorance of realities and the 4NT, no rebirth, no suffering and so on. Remember the 3 rounds of kilesa vatta, kamma vatta and vipaka vatta. Kusala is included in kamma vatta, but not in kilesa vatta. Also,under natural decisive support condition, akusala can be a condition for kusala and vice versa too. Do you have BB’s translation of the Mahanidana Sutta and commentaries? At the back, there is a detailed explanation of the various conditions involved, I believe. Also lots in ‘Dispeller’, which I’m happy to add. Happy to discuss further. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for the AN sutta and quote from Qus of K.Milinda. Excellent! “Just, O Bhikkhus, as a very small quantity of excrement is of evil smell, so do I find no beauty in the very smallest degree of future life, not even in such for the time of the snapping of the fingers.” ======= 40943 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi AndrewL, I see there are lots of Qus this time, so I’ll give short replies, as I understand of course, and you can probe further if you wish. Lots of snipping in between – apologies for that. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Right well don't the foundations of mindfulness themselves help you to > see anatta and so on? … S: Yes. The 4 foundations are the realities to be seen as anatta. So it is the awareness and understanding of these that helps. …. >And I guess I > would then ask you, since I am not that competant in Abhidharma, where > does seeing the three characteristics fit into the bigger picture of > things? Is it that they are understood initially only superficially, > but later, near the end of the path, impressed deeply upon the mind? … S: Yes. Any understanding has to develop from the superficial to the deep. It is by firstly undersgtanding namas and rupas as dhammas only and as distinct from each other, that deeper understanding, such as the impermanence of such dhammas, can later develop. …. > If it is motivated by an idea of self, it still seems OK to me as it > will bring one to view the true nature of realities, and eventually > get past self-belief (that the insight knowledges arise from the four > foundations of mindfulness was only made clear to me later, this was a > major stumbling block for me). … S: Moments with self view (wrong view) will not bring any right view of realities. So we have to distinguish between the two from the beginning. ….. > So why did the Buddha even tell his disciples to practise these four > foundations of mindfulness in such a specific manner for such a > specific period of time? The practise outlined will clearly lead to > whatever is necessary for liberating the mind. … S: The Buddha described all realities, all causes and results. IF awareness of realities is developed with right understanding, then it will lead to liberation. This is not the same as saying ‘Self, do it!’ (See Ken H’s recent comments to Kel on the same theme: “In this Dhamma there is no self who practices, there are only disinterested, momentary conditioned phenomena. Learning about nama and rupa without worrying about ‘my’ nama and ‘my’ rupa is the way to go.”) … S:>>The most > > important aspect of development or practice is the understanding and > > eradication of the wrong idea of self. > A:> Isn't that only one of the ten fetters to be abandoned? Why should it > be given highest priority? … S: Yes, but self-view (and other wrong views) have to be eradicated first. That’s why it’s only a sotapanna that keeps the precepts perfectly, doesn’t follow wrong practices and so on. “And here wrong-view clinging and so on are abandoned first because they are eliminated by the path of StreamEntry; sense-desire clinging is abandoned later because it is eliminated by the path of Arahatship. This is the order of their abandoning…” Dispeller 850 … > And even if not, can't we start with wrong view of self to practise > what will show is there is no self?? …. S: Wrong view and self view based moments of practice will never see they're wrong. It is only right view that will see it. So that’s why there has to be awareness of wrong view and self view when they arise. …. > Hearing being a khandha where khanda == skhandhas == five aggregates? > Certainly it's something that can be contemplated but I don't see > hearing being one- …. S: Hearing is a citta (consciousness). Citta here is a synonym for vinnana as in vinnana khandha. So hearing, seeing and all other cittas are included in vinnana khandha. …. S:> > Actually, citta `cognizes' an object at every instant, whether or not > > there is any awareness. A:> OK. This is kind of deep. I don't understand how citta can know other > citta (:: kind of shaky, still having to wait for an occasion when he > can go through CH I of CMA again before even touching II ::) … S: Yes, it is deep. Remember citta arises at every single moment and that anything (reality or concept) is experienced by it. So when the object is not a sound or visible object or other sense object experienced through a sense door, the object can also be a nama – a citta, a cetasika or even nibbana if conditions are right as well as concepts when we think. A citta with awareness can only be aware of another citta in the mind-door process and only that citta which has just fallen away and is still ‘fresh’. We call it the present reality still. Don’t get hung up on this for now. It’s enough to know that any reality can be the object of awareness and this can be proved when there is awareness of seeing or thinking, for example. …. > Another thing. How are realities to be 'known.' It is through > mindfulness, through understanding, or what? … S: By being aware of their characteristics when they are experienced as in the example I just gave. Awareness is aware of seeing consciousness and understanding understands it at that moment. It’s very important to understand the characteristic of awareness, otherwise we’ll be forever taking a conventional idea of mindfulness or watching or labeling for being awareness. …. >Because I have had an > occasion of just slowing things down when it appeared that some of the > elements and sense bases were coming into view (stuff described in MN > 8 on right view) but I wouldnt say I had mindfulness. Would that > still be good? … S: It’s impossible to slow down cittas, cetasikas and rupas. If one tries in order to have awareness or mindfulness, this would be an example of wrong practice as I see it. Not understanding conditioned dhammas. As far as I understand, this line of questioning of yours in your last post is exactly on the right track. I look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ======= 40944 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:18am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > Thank you very much for your clear communication. I think we both > understand each other. I think we have not talked much. That is we > have not exchanged for more than 12 messages. This time your response > was very clear. > > I will reply a few of your messages below. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing ...(snip)... Dear Htoo Thanks you very much for your reaction. I will take more time (perhaps some week) before I react again. For example about your remark ": Here 'doubtless' is external appearance. 'Proofless' is internal appearance." Metta Joop 40945 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:53am Subject: Radiation of Metta Hello All, I have been reading the Story of Roja the Malla from the Mahâvagga, Vinaya Pitaka, in the chapter on Medicines - Rajamallavatthu. http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Pesala/Love/love.html I find it a little unsettling. It seems to state that Metta can be used to alter the behaviour of another. Or, if it is only the metta radiated by the Buddha that can influence others so strongly ... why was Roja so assisted, and others not? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40946 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Suan & All, You kindly included my name in your first message and I’ve been reflecting on it. You raised many controversial points as usualand as Kel said, raised some sensitive issues: …. > In one of the previous posts, Howard wrote: > > "I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I > see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas." … S: I’m not sure I see anything so wrong with this. Am I missing some point? From the Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani) Intro: “In the Suttanta, the five ‘aggregates’ are classified partially and not fully. In the Abhidhamma they are classified fully….. Similarly with the twelve sense-organs (ayatanas), the eighteen elements, the four Truths…..” Is Howard saying anything so very different? Of course, later in the same intro of the Atthasalini we read about how any of the Pitakas should be considered ‘after the manner of one catching a snake’ and any of them can be wrongly understood. “And the meaning not being considered with understanding, those acquired doctrines do not lend themselves to close insight.” So It’s not a question of how fully they are read or classified. I know for myself, that often when I read any part of the Tipitaka, often there’s no wise attention at all. I’m sure you’ll agree that we cannot make any blanket judgments about reading the Abhidhamma texts as being a path to Nibbana and you often give examples of translators who've missed the point entirely. The ‘abhidhamma’ is not in any book as I understand it, but is the truth about ultimate truths and realities now as we write. These can be only be known if there has been sufficient wise reflection and consideration and growth of awareness. Now, Howard is one person here who considers and reflects very deeply about present dhammas and about ‘cherished beliefs’ which need to be seen for what they are. I learn a lot from his considering,questioning, friendly and open approach here. In fact, I hope he’ll say more for me about ‘cherished beliefs’ as I know this is a topic he considers a lot. …. > In reply, Howard wrote: > > "That is your claim. I see no justification for it. In any case, > there are many "academics" who are serious and devoted followers of > the Dhamma who view Abhidhamma as a later development." …. S: You continue to suggest that such an approach would be indicative of wrong views and wrong speech and lack of saddha in theTriple Gem. It’s a curious point. Like you, I’ve always argued with lots of references that the Abhidhamma was essentially taught by the Buddha and is definitely his ‘word’. There are many posts in U.P. under ‘Abhidhamma- origins’ on this topic. Mostly, however, it’s been a topic of mostly historical interest to me. I just like to share and encourage others in what I find of benefit and like you, feel that negative comments or speculations about the Abhidhamma may deter friends from considering it, However, whether the Abhidhamma was taught during the Buddha’s life, several hundered years later, by the Buddha himself or by his disciples is pretty academic and not very relevant, as I see it, to the understanding of the Truths at this moment. Again, please let me know if I’m missing something important. If what we read in the Abhidhamma and commentaries is helpful, relevant and understandable or leading to wise reflection, then let us study and consider them. If not, then I don’t see a problem. After all, it is the understanding now of the khandhas arising and falling as we speak that counts, whether such understanding is prompted by what we’ve read in a sutta, in the Abhidhamma, in Pali, English, Burmese or in whatever form. Like Kel said, in Burmese, Thai and Sinhala, many Pali words are used in everyday vocabulary, but without any understanding of their original meanings. As he also said, any real understanding ‘should be natural, just part of one’s progress based on one’s own experience.’. He also stressed it’s not a matter of blind faith in any Pitaka. I believe as well, that saddha can only develop with understanding of paramattha dhammas, not by a blanket acceptance of what we don’t understand. I think it’s also useful to look at what ‘wrong view’ really is. We’ve been discussing the Brahmajala Sutta and the ‘net of views’ here and whether they really are all-inclusive as the commentaries state so clearly. I don’t believe questions about the dating of texts or whether the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha or key disciples are included in this net. On our recent trip with A.Sujin, she reminded some of us not to cling to texts and their authenticity and so on, but just to know what is right and what is wrong without minding about the source. As wisdom develops, we'll naturally incline to reading, considering and listening to the truth. Otherwise the clinging just distracts us from the Path again and simply leads to more clinging. I just wish to add a little more about the meaning of ‘wrong view’: In the Vibhanga 925(2nd Abhidhamma text) we read: ***** “Therein what is ‘false view’? “There is no alms-giving; there is no sacrifice, there is no offering; there is no fruit or resultant of actions done rightly and done wrongly; there is no this world; there is no next world….etc etc..wrong view, resorting to wrong view, jungle of wrong view, wilderness of wrong view, distortion of wrong view…etc etc…inverted grip. This is called false view, eternalistic view, gratification view, individuality view, soul view, annihilatioistic view, false view.” ***** More detail in other sections. Also lots of helpful detail in Nyantiloka’s dictionary under ‘ditthi’ and in Nina’s ‘Cetasikas’ in ch 16, ‘Wrong View (di.t.thi)'. She writes: ***** “Through the study of the Dhamma we may have acquired theoretical understanding of realities as being impermanent and non-self, but wrong view cannot be eradicated through theoretical understanding. It can only be eradicated through the practice, through the development of the eightfold Path. The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 248) gives the following definition of wrong view, diììhi: … It has unwise conviction as characteristic; perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest fault. "The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 164) gives a similar definition of diììhi. The Dhammasangaùi (§38) calls diììhi a “wrong road” and the Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter II, 253) explains: … From being not the right path, it is a “wrong path”. For just as one who is gone astray, although he holds that this is the path to such a village, does not arrive at a village, so a man of false opinions, although he holds that this is the path to a happy destiny, cannot get there; hence from being not the right path it is a wrong path… Diììhi has unwise conviction1 as characteristic. When there is diììhi one clings to a false view of reality. Its function is “perversion”: because of diììhi one takes for permanent what is impermanent, one takes for self what is not self. Ignorance covers up the true nature of realities and wrong view sees them wrongly, in a distorted way. Diììhi is a factor of the wrong Path. If one follows the wrong Path defilements cannot be eradicated and thus there will be no end to the cycle of birth and death. “ ***** S: So I think it is the careful consideration of realities , like the recent discussion Howard and RobK were having about sense bases, that leads to the seeing of perversions for what they are. It doesn’t matter where we learn these truths from and I know that for myself, there is a lot of clinging to particular words or texts that is counter-productive to both my own understanding and that of others. For this, I’m grateful to my many dhamma friends for pointing it out to me, event though I often find the medicine bitter to swallow at the time. I’ll look forward to any of your comments as usual, Suan. It’s always good to see you here;-). Thank you for helping me to consider this topic further. Metta, Sarah ===== 40947 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:24am Subject: Nirodha-samapatti Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Nirodha-samapatti'is made up of 'nirodha' and 'samapatti'. Nirodha means 'cessation' 'disappearance' 'dying out' 'stoppage' 'extinguishment'. Again 'samapatti' is made up of 'sam' and 'aapatti'. Sam means 'very well' 'rightly' 'truely' 'genuinely'. Aapatti means 'to reach' 'to arrive at' 'to access to' 'to be in'. Samapatti means 'accessed, reached and arrived at something or somewhere'. Nirodha-samapatti means 'reaching and arriving at cessation'. This is explanation on words. Jhanalabhi or 'person who attained jhana' can access to their attained jhana at a later date after they have attained it. It is called jhana-samapatti. It means 'accessing and reaching and arriving at formerly attained jhana state'. Unlike jhana-samapatti, nirodha-samapatti cannot be achieved by non- ariyas. New word_ariya. Ariyas are those who attained different stages of enlightenment. There are 4 stages of enlightenment. They are 1.sotaapatti magga (1st stage) 2.sakadaagaami magga (2nd stage) 3.anaagaami magga (3rd stage) 4.arahatta magga (4th stage) or (final stage) New words 1.sotaapatti 2.magga 3.sakadagaami 4.anaagaami 5.arahatta Sota means 'flow'. That is the flow of the water of rivers. The water in the rivers successively flow into larger rivers and finally reaches the water of great oceans. Here nibbana is limitless. Even though countless beings become arahats and reach nibbana, there is always nibbana and there is no time that nibbana is full of dead arahats. So here 'sota' means in essence 'initial'. Aapatti means 'to access' 'to reach' 'to arrive at' [have been explained above]. So sotapatti means 'reaching the river flow or the stream flow'. When something is in the flow it will finally reach the ocean. As initial arriving to this flow, it is called 'stream enterer' or 'stream entrant'. Magga means 'path' 'way' 'road' 'street'. So sotaapatti magga or simply sotapatti magga means 'the path that reaches the flow of dhamma to nibbana ocean'. That path is not that simple. I have long talked in Dhamma Thread about sotapatti magga citta and its accompanying cetasikas. That citta is mainly supported by 8 cetasikas and these 8 cetasikas are called 8 parts of the path (that citta-magga citta or path-consciousness). Sakadaagaami is made up of 1.saki.m, and 2.aagaami 1.sakim means 'once' 2.aagaami means 'to come' Gaama means 'village' or 'where human beings live'. Aagaami means 'to come to human village' or 'to come back to human realm' or 'to come back to kama bhuumi or sensuous planes. As it cause coming once back to human realm, it is known as 'Once Returner'. Anaagaami is made up of 'ana' and 'aagaami'. Ana means 'no' 'not' 'nothing'. Aagaami as above. So anagami means 'not coming again to human realm'. This is also known as 'Non-Returner'. Arahatta means 'deserving to receive great offerings by human beings, devas, brahmas' or 'worthy to receive great offering' as there is no more 'raha' or 'dust of defilements'. Arahatta = a + raha + atta = beings without defilements Non-returner will never return to any realm but when they die they will be last reborn at one of 5 suddhavasa brahma bhuumi or 'pure abode' realms. Suddha means 'pure'. Aavasa means 'abode' 'dwelling place'. Bhuumi means 'realm' 'plane of existence'. These realms are 4th jhana rupa brahma realms. They are very powerful and these 5 realms are full of ariyas and there is no ordinary beings there. These 5 realms are the only realms that where The Buddha Gotama had never been reborn there. That is why He visited there with Venerable Moggallana. To come back to 'nirodha-samapatti', it is possible only for arahats and anagams, all of whom have all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas. Anagams means 'beings who attained anagami magga nana'. Actually I am going to post nirodha-samapatti in the future. But as you requested I answer it now. When those anagams or arahats who have already attained and proficient in all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas can stay in nirodha-samapatti. But there is limitation. That limitation is physical body. The body normally allow only 7 days without water and food. So for nirodha- samapatti to achieve, they have to foresee their future life in advance with their dibbacakku nana or divine eyes. That is why jhanas are needed to practise norodha-samapatti. If there left only 6 days, nirodha-samapatti cannot be practised. When there left 7 days exactly or more than 7 days then arahats go into 1st jhana, exit from it and discern 1st jhana. Then enter 2nd jhana, exit from it and discern 2nd jhana. Then enter 3rd jhana, exit from it and discern 3rd jhana. Then enter 4th jhana, exit from it and discern 4th jhana. Then enter 1st arupa jhana or akasananca-ayatana jhana, exit from it and discern it. Then enter 2nd arupa jhana, exit from it and discern it. Then enter the 3rd arupa jhana, and stay there. Then exit from it and discern it and after that they have to do adhitthana regarding several things. 1. when The Buddha wants me may I be able to arise from samapatti. 2. when The Sangha want me may I be able to arise from samapatti. 3. may the avasa or monastry or building or tree in connection with me be free from enemies like fire, animal attack, disasters etc etc. 4. may civara or robes be free from destruction by enemies 5. may parikkhara other essentials for bhikkhu be free from destruction by enemies. And then they go into the 4th arupa jhana or n'evasanna-nasanna- ayatana jhana. This is the highest jhana and nama dhamma there are so subtle that it is hard to say whether there is 'sanna' or there is 'no sanna' in that state. This jhana just happen 2 moments and at the end of the 2nd moment there arise nothing and reach 'cessation'. This is called 'nirodha-samapatti'. There is no citta. There is no cetasika. So there is no nama-dhamma. As there is no nama-dhamma there is no cittaja rupa or rupa derived from citta. So from outside if these arahats are seen by other beings they will be like statues. I do hope the whole message is clear to easily understand. If there is any queries, please do not hesitate to ask for clarification. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40948 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:10pm Subject: Re: What the mind does --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi all, > > My father's funeral will be held tomorrow. Please don't worry about > condolences: he enjoyed remarkably good health and contentment for > 92 years, and so, more than anything else, his funeral will be a > celebration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O, This may or may not be condolences. But fathers are always fathers. Once there was a family who one day faced with passing away of a member of their family. They group together and they are cremating the corpse. But they do not have any tear in their eyes. An old man came up and asked them each. 'Lady! Who are you and what is the connection with you to that dead person? He must not be related to you.' ''O Abba, this corpse is the dead body of my beloved son. I love him so much and he was a nice person.'' 'Gentleman! You are not the relative of that dead man?' ''Yes. I am the father of the dead person. I love him very much and he was a good son.'' 'Girl! You are not related to that man?' ''Yes. He was my beloved own brother. He passed away and no one can be replaced in my brother's position.'' 'Madam! You must not be related to the dead man'. ''Yes. I am his wife. I love him very much and we were together for a long time but now he left everyone and passed away.'' 'Still there is no trace of tear in your eyes even though you each are related to that dead man. What a nice and decent family.' 'Phutthassa lokadhammehi citta.m yassa nakampati asoka.m viraja.m khema.m eta.m mangalamuttama.m ' You all are not trembling with this bad lokadhamma. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! May you be calm and be with Dhamma. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40949 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your suggestion. Please see the discussion. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Part of Htoo's old post: > For arahats what happen to those links avijja and sankhara and vinnana. > Obviously they do not have avijjana. But they do have vinnana. What is the middle in between them? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: …. S: Of course you're most welcome to `extend it'. An arahant has of course eradicated avijja (ignorance) and no new kamma is formed (the meaning of sankhara here). There are no causes or conditions for rebirth and hence it is the end of the rounds and future life vipaka. However there will still be vinnana (vipaka cittas here) resulting from previous kamma. Have I missed anything? If so, please feel very free to elaborate further anytime. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, you do not miss anything. I am also expecting the input from other members regarding Dependent Origination. According to your answer you are referring to 3 rounds that is the past, the present, and the future and you are not referring to a single life time. I have to ask here because there are people who said that D.O continues to rotate without some links like 1.avijja and 2.tanha. I felt uneasy to see such message. Am I wrong in that matter? With Metta, Htoo Naing 40950 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:31pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear Joop, > > > > Thank you very much for your clear communication. I think we both > > understand each other. I think we have not talked much. That is we > > have not exchanged for more than 12 messages. This time your > response > > was very clear. > > > > I will reply a few of your messages below. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > ...(snip)... > > Dear Htoo > > Thanks you very much for your reaction. > I will take more time (perhaps some week) before I react again. > For example about your remark ": Here 'doubtless' is external > appearance. 'Proofless' is internal appearance." > > Metta > > Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, Please take time. Sorry for my new ideated-words of 'external' and 'internal'. These are just to represent what the essence resides. When you say 'I am saying things doubtless', this means you are seeing me as a doubtless person and again this is because of external appearance of me or external manifestation of so call me or my messages. But when you say 'I am saying things proofless, this means you are seeing my messages as proofless, which is wrong to say. Because it resides internal area. Because these dhammas are internal dhamma. There are ajjhattika dhamma and bahiddhika dhamma. Bahiddhika dhammas can be accessed by any one while ajjhattika dhammas are entirely unique to being concern. When you cannot see you will definitely say you did not see anything. This does not mean facts are wrong and proofless. Because you have not seen them yet. If you have seen them then you will not be saying 'proofless' any longer and any more. Doubtless is the earliest tool to explore nibbana. Please read upanisa sutta. If you are doubtful there is a great hindrance in reaching nibbana. What you think 'proofless' will prove you when they arise in you. That is why I said 'proofless' matter is internal. I do not know whether you see them or not because it is internality of you and not me. See you in a week time. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40951 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > > Hi All > I have a query regarding the avijja>sankhara links of > Paticcasamuppada. My understanding is that kusala citta can not be > rooted with avijja/moha. How then is it explained that avijja > conditions kusala kamma/cetana/sankhara? > Thanks > Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Steve, This is why avijja and moha have different names. Avijja paccaya sankhara. Avijja as requisite condition sankhara has to arise. When kusala sankharas are being done there does exist avijja anusaya. When 4 Noble truths are not seen, sankhara including kusala sankharas are being done. So it is still true to say 'avijja paccaya sankhara' in case of kusala. But at the time of doing kusala there does not exist moha cetasika. But why he did that kusala is because he cannot see 4 Noble truths. That is he does not have vijja. So he does have avijja. Here avijja and moha cannot be equated. Because what you are asking is vitikkama kilesa. But avijja is anusaya kilesa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40952 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 97- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (i) --- sarah abbott wrote: <...> > While we study the different aspects of cetanå we can see that > ***** This last line was included by mistake - 98 (j) jumping ahead.... S. 40953 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhanas Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > So far I have asked several experienced people, monks and lay > Buddhists, to explain this 4-tetrad Anapanasati for me, but none of the > interpretations I have received are similar. Yours is another unique > one. .... S: As you've been enjoying Nina's comments and quotes, you may also like to look at a very detailed series she wrote on the Anapansati sutta with cross-refs from the Vism. It's all in Useful Posts under 'anapanasati'in the files section, plus a number of other posts (mostly by her and Jon) which were not in the series but which you may also like to look at. I know they'd be glad for any of your feedback or Kel's of course. Meanwhile it's good to read your discussions with Kel on this difficult topic. Metta, Sarah ==== 40954 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:58pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (231) Dear Dhamma Friends, When jhanalabhi or 'person proficient in jhana' attain all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas and has practised all 10 kasina kammatthana up to 4th jhana he is quite ready to practise for abhinna. Dhamma Thread is currently running on the topic of vithi varas and all pancadvara vithi varas have been discussed. And kamavacara manodvara vithi varas have also been discussed and jhana javana vara, magga javana vara were explained. For abhinna the jhanalabhi have to practise in 14 manners. These will be discussed in later part when kammatthana portion is approached. After he has practised his rupa jhana and arupa jhana and all 14 manner have been thoroughly digested he is quite ready to perform abhinna. At kamavacara mahakusala javana vithi vara a wish to perform abhinna arise and this conditions later arising cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When everything is ready the current flow of bhavanga cittas stop to arise and the first vithi citta in manodvara vithi vara starts to arise. It is manodvara-avajjana citta and it adverts the mind to a few kamavacara mahakusala cittas. These mahakusala cittas are javana cittas. BBBBB..BBBMPUAGAbBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B = bhavanga citta or life-continuing consciousness M = manodvara-avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness P = parikamma mahakusala javana citta or preparatory consciousness U = upacara mahakusala javana citta or proximity consciousness A = anuloma mahakusala javana citta or foreward going negotiating C G = gotrabhu mahakusala javana citta or lineage-changing consciousness Ab= Abhinna As soon as abhinna javana citta arise everything has been done depend on what the abhinna is. This is abinna vithi vara. Jhana javana vara and magga javana vara have alreay explained. Next post will be 3 samapatti vara. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40955 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:59pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Robert: But, I believe, this is only doubt and wrong view and the > writer is actaully making kamma that will further weaken the roots > of good. I try not to discuss this with many often as I genuinely > fear that someone might say something even more damaging. > > James: This is very nice of you to be so concerned about others > kamma, but what if you are wrong? What if those who proclaim the > Abhidhamma to be the teaching of the Buddha, without solid evidence > of such, are the ones receiving the negative kamma? Actually, I > don't think either side receives negative kamma from this issue > unless their particular viewpoint is inspired by greed, hate, or > delusion. I happen to believe the Buddha didn't teach the > Abhidhamma, > James: Now, I could choose to believe either side of this issue and > not receive any negative kamma, right? I am only interested in the > truth. I think the truth is one thing and you think the truth is > another thing. No negative kamma there, I don't think. > ========== Dear Friend James, Someone learning about Dhamma may/will have doubts about the Tipitaka and Theravada.?@Doubt is conditioned and it must arise. However, saying that the Abhidhamma was invented by later monks is a heavy accusation. It is in effect saying that the ancient Sangha were liars who put words in the Buddha's mouth. This is kamma of a serious degree. If you are right and it is an invention, then the Theravada tradition is corrupt since its beginnings and the Sasana of the Buddha has fallen, I do not believe that is the case. If one questions because they want to learn more about Abhidhamma their doubts may lessen in proportion as wisdom develops - but if not they would be wise to keep an open mind and not wilfully try to diminish the importance of Abhidhamma. If they should cause others to have doubts, then the kamma is that much worse. I am a moderator of triplegem group and because of this we don't allow posts along such lines- this is a protection for the writer. RobertK 40956 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:12pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Robert: But, I believe, this is only doubt and wrong view and the > > writer is actaully making kamma that will further weaken the roots > > of good. I try not to discuss this with many often as I genuinely > > fear that someone might say something even more damaging. > > > > James: This is very nice of you to be so concerned about others > > kamma, but what if you are wrong? What if those who proclaim the > > Abhidhamma to be the teaching of the Buddha, without solid > evidence > > of such, are the ones receiving the negative kamma? Actually, I > > don't think either side receives negative kamma from this issue > > unless their particular viewpoint is inspired by greed, hate, or > > delusion. I happen to believe the Buddha didn't teach the > > Abhidhamma, > James: Now, I could choose to believe either side of > this issue and > > not receive any negative kamma, right? I am only interested in > the > > truth. I think the truth is one thing and you think the truth is > > another thing. No negative kamma there, I don't think. > > > ========== > Dear Friend James, > > Someone learning about Dhamma may/will have doubts about the > Tipitaka and Theravada.?@Doubt is conditioned and it must arise. > However, saying that the Abhidhamma was invented by later monks is a > heavy accusation. It is in effect saying that the ancient Sangha > were liars who put words in the Buddha's mouth. This is kamma of a > serious degree. > If you are right and it is an invention, then the Theravada > tradition is corrupt since its beginnings and the Sasana of the > Buddha has fallen, I do not believe that is the case. > > If one questions because they want to learn more about Abhidhamma > their doubts may lessen in proportion as wisdom develops - but if > not they would be wise to keep an open mind and not wilfully try to > diminish the importance of Abhidhamma. > If they should cause others to have doubts, then the kamma is that > much worse. I am a moderator of triplegem group and because of this > we don't allow posts along such lines- this is a protection for the > writer. > RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James and Robert K, I agree with Robert K. It is wrong to say Abhidhamma is invented by later monks. Unlike science, where new and new findings are being discovered The Dhamma that discovered by The Buddha was 100 % genuine when The Buddha was alive. Since mahapainibbana of The Buddha this 100 % started to decline. That is why The Sangha tried to maintain through Buddhists Councils. Unlike science, there will not be any new findings and discoveries regarding Dhamma. Instead already existed things are declining because of later successors accumulation. If there arise new writing then it must be just an alternative copy. Otherwise if it is not right then it must not be Abhidhamma but lower philosophy, the things of which are messed by ignorant people. There cannot be any new Abhidhamma other than what The Buddha taught. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40957 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhanas Hi Sarah - Thank you for the information about the file location of Nina's "very detailed series" on Anapanasati. This is like giving me a treasure map. Of course, we will have Anapanasati Discussion, Part II, once I have time to digest the information in this valuable series. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > So far I have asked several experienced people, monks and lay > > Buddhists, to explain this 4-tetrad Anapanasati for me, but none of the > > interpretations I have received are similar. Yours is another unique > > one. > .... > S: As you've been enjoying Nina's comments and quotes, you may also like > to look at a very detailed series she wrote on the Anapansati sutta with > cross-refs from the Vism. It's all in Useful Posts under 'anapanasati'in > the files section, plus a number of other posts (mostly by her and Jon) > which were not in the series but which you may also like to look at. I > know they'd be glad for any of your feedback or Kel's of course. > > Meanwhile it's good to read your discussions with Kel on this difficult > topic. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ==== 40958 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:48pm Subject: Re: jhanas Friend Kelvin - I appreciate the English version of Anapana Dipani in a PDF file that you kindly provided. I am glad that you are interested in Anapanasati Discussion, Part II. Yes, Kel, we will continue discussing and expand it to include Nina's Series on this subject too (please read Sarah's mail today about the file location). I am hopeful that we will converge to a "point soltion" soon. Thank you very much, Kel. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > After reading your response, I remembered I have Anapana Dipani at > home in Burmese. As I was flipping through it, I thought to see if > there's english version available online. Here it is: > http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/wh43132.pdf > > Perhaps after you read it, we can discuss again? > > - kel 40959 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:59pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (232) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 3 kinds of samapatti or 'reaching' 'being in'. They are jhana-samapatti, phala-samapatti, and nirodha-samapatti. Jhana- samapatti can be practised by jhanalabhi or people proficient in jhana and phala-samapatti can be practised by people proficient in phala and nirodha-samapatti can be practised by jhanalabhi-arahattas. When jhana experts think of to develop jhana-samapatti their thinking is kamavacara javana varas and this decision is followed by countless bhavanaga cittas. At a time bhavanga cittas flow has to stop and the 1st madnodvara vithi citta arises. It is manodvara-avajjana citta and it adverts the mind to next following javana cittas. After manodvara-avajjana citta or mind-sense-door-adverting consciousness passes away, next arises parikamma kamavacara mahakusaka javana citta. This citta or consciousness is an impulsive consciousness and swift one. So it is called javana citta. Even though the vithi vara is jhana-samapatti this earlier parts of vithi vara are kamavacara cittas and not yet rupavacara or arupavacara kusala cittas. But this citta 'parikamma' is just preparing for next arising kusala citta. So it is called preparatory consciousness or parikamma citta. This citta passes away again and it is followed by upacara kamavacara mahakusala javana citta or 'proximity consciousness'. Upacara means 'proximity' and it is quite close to jhana appana cittas. So it is called upacara kamavacara mahakusala javana citta. Again this upacara citta passes away and next arises anuloma kamavacara mahakusala javana citta. This citta adjusts fore going cittas and next coming jhana cittas. This citta is like 'running into jhana'. But it is still kamavacara citta or consciousness of sensuous plane. After passing away of this citta, there arises next citta called gotrabhu kamavacara mahakusala javana citta. This citta is javana citta or impulsive consciousness. It is still kamavacara citta or consciousness of sensuous plane. It is mahakusala citta. It is lineage-changing consciousness and as soon as it arises kama or sensuous plane is left behind and next plane is rupa or fine- material plane if jhana is rupa jhana and arupa or immaterial plane if jhana is arupa jhana. But it itself [gotrabhu citta] is still not jhana citta. That is lineage is still in sensuous plane. But it completely change citta into next plane when it disappears. So it is called lineage-changing consciousness. As soon as gotrabhu citta passes away, next arises jhana citta. This passes away and next arises jhana citta. This passes away again and next arise jhana citta. All cittas that arise following gotrabhu citta are jhana citta as long as it is jhana javana vithi vara and bhavanga cittas do not still arise. In this the object, the citta, the associated cetasikas, the associated rupas are all the same characterisitcs. If not mindful it seems like that this citta is permanent. But in actuality it is not. Each citta does have uppada khana, tithi khana, and bhanga khana as their life and they each have to pass away when their lifespan does not allow them to live any more. This is well-reaching to the state of jhana or absorption and it is called 'Jhana-Samapatti'. Vithi vara is like this. BBB....BBBMPUAGJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJh... JhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJhJh JhJhJh...infinity..JhJhJhJhjh..infinity..JhJhJhJhJhJhjh..infinity..Jh. ..JhJhJhJhJhJhJhjhJhJh..infinity..JhJhJhJh......................... But the limit is that he has alreay exercise when to emerge from it. So it is till the time as he predetermined. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40960 From: Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:28am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/12/05 11:26:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > H: What about attending to the kusala and akusala mind states that > arise, supporting the former and opposing the latter that the Buddha > put forward as right effort - the "sense control" that the Buddha > mentions? > > J: Yes, the Buddha spoke about this at times, but we need to have a > particular reference if we are to discuss it usefully (otherwise we > might each be talking about different passages/occurrences). By all > means bring up a reference for discussion. > > H: Did the Buddha develop ten paramitas over the course of aeons > randomly, with no conventional action take on his part, no practice, > no cultivation? > > J: Well of course the Buddha took conventional actions, as does > everyone ;-)). Not to be cynical, but did he have any option? The > real question must concern the underlying mental state, and its > development. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, let me be clear on this. When I write of the Buddha or anyone else following a practice and volitionally engaging in specific cultivational activities, I am explicity discussing *only* conventional actions. Underlying all that, the reality, is nothing but impersonal, fleeting, insubstantial, and conditioned phenomena. We begin in the midst of a conventional, story-world of experience and action. It is wit regard to such a "world", and "actions" in it that the Buddha instructed his listeners with in the suttas. There he taught them to conventionally engage in conventional actions. The realities that underlie such actions are what have consequences, and those actual consequences are yet other realities. But we worldlings do not operate at the level of awareness of realities. We operate at the conventional, conceptual level. And to ignore the conventional actions urged by the Buddha throughout the Sutta Pitaka (and I see that almost *everywhere*) is, in fact, to put "Buddhists" in exactly the same boat as non-Buddhists as far as "progress" towards liberation is concerned. -------------------------------------------- > > But if we take our cue purely from the Buddha's life as lived, we > get quite a different picture to the one we get by paying regard to > what he said as a teaching, and I believe that could be a mistake. > (The analogy is of the person aspiring to wealth or worldly success > taking his cue from the career paths of the rich or successful, > rather than listening to those persons' advice on the matter.) > > H: Did he become the Buddha by good luck?? Is there no conventional > Buddhist practice urged by the Buddha at all? If I truly believed > not, then I would go elsewhere, because the Dhamma would just become > a nice story/theory to be debated on the internet, AFAIC ("as far as > I'm concerned")! > > J: Are you saying that if there is no such thing as conventional > practice then all is left to chance? If so, I think we need to > explore the middle ground between these 2 options. Surely there can > be kusala of any kind arising without deliberate practice. Your own > experience in life confirms this, I'm sure. --------------------------------------- Howard: No more so for a "Buddhist" than for anyone else. --------------------------------------- > > Jon > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40961 From: nori Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:42pm Subject: A perspective on meditation A perspective on meditation I think that many people when thinking of what to do during meditation, they think of focusing their awareness onto the breath. This is not without good reason, it being the first instruction in the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta. However it is interesting to note that in the Samanna-Phala Suttanta, the second discourse in the Digha Nikaya, there is no mention of the breath in the section that describes meditation. Maybe this is because what was included is the foremost objective while sitting (Putting away the hankering after the world, purifying oneself of the hindrances), the rest of the instruction (in Satipatthana Sutta, Anapanasati Sutta) being only a means to this end. Maybe it is important not to get caught up in the specific method, or specifics in general, and keeping the main intention foremost during sitting. I will recall the section here: D.II (Pali Text Society) 67. `Then master of this so excellent body or moral precepts, gifted with this so excellent self-restraint as to the senses, endowed with this so excellent mindfulness and self-possession, filled with this so excellent content, he chooses some lonely spot to rest at on his way - in the woods, at the foot of a tree, on a hill side, in a mountain glen, in a rocky cave, in a charnel place, or on a heap of straw in the open field. And returning thither after his round for alms he seats himself, when his meal is done, cross legged, keeping his body erect, and his intelligence alert, intent. 68. `Putting away the hankering after the world, he remains with a heart that hankers not, and purifies his mind of lusts. Putting away the corruption of the wish to injure, he remains with a heart free from ill temper, and purifies his mind of malevolence. Putting away torpor of heart and mind, keeping his ideas alight, mindful and self possessed, he purifies his mind of weakness and sloth. Putting away flurry and worry, he remains free from fretfulness, and with heart serene within, he purifies himself of irritability and vexation of spirit. Putting away wavering, he remains as one passed beyond perplexity; and no longer in suspense as to what is good, he purifies his mind of doubt. 40962 From: nori Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:06pm Subject: Being full of it When we are full of it, we suffer as a result. Lying and deception goes far beyond speech and outward actions. It goes deeper. Lying, deception, and insincerity exists within ourselves in our deepest thoughts. We can fool ourselves into believing we have the intention of doing one thing (like doing what is good, or helping another) but in reality having a whole other intention, like creating an outward display for whoever and whatever reason. Whatever actions we perform, let them be sincere for how can any insincere action be any good. 40963 From: nori Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Being full of it - cont. When we are full of it - insincere, we cannot even know our true intentions, they are hidden from us. Sincerity reveals our intention. 40964 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: (snip) > However, saying that the Abhidhamma was invented by later monks is > a heavy accusation. It is in effect saying that the ancient Sangha > were liars who put words in the Buddha's mouth. This is kamma of a > serious degree. > If you are right and it is an invention, then the Theravada > tradition is corrupt since its beginnings and the Sasana of the > Buddha has fallen, I do not believe that is the case. Hallo RobertK Such language makes discussion difficult, but OK, it's your opinion. I don't think Theravada tradition is currupt. Exact history was not the fouvorite activity in old India (it was in old China) But one question: how about the Kathavatthu ? That is a book of the Abhidhamma, the only one with a wellknown (not discussed) author: Moggaliputta Tissa, and his work is a production associated with the Council of Patna held under 'Asoka's' patronage about B.C. 246 Joop 40965 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > (snip) > > However, saying that the Abhidhamma was invented by later monks is > > a heavy accusation. It is in effect saying that the ancient Sangha > > were liars who put words in the Buddha's mouth. > > > I don't think Theravada tradition is currupt. Exact history was not > the fouvorite activity in old India (it was in old China) > But one question: how about the Kathavatthu ? > That is a book of the Abhidhamma, the only one with a wellknown > (not discussed) author: Moggaliputta Tissa, and his work is a > production associated > with the Council of Patna held under 'Asoka's' patronage about B.C. > 246 > =============== Dear Joop, I'm glad you don't think the Theravada tradition is corrupt. Nevertheless, some Buddhists believe the Theravada monks invented a third of the Tipitaka. ie. the Abhidhamma, attributing it to the Buddha, putting words in his mouth. If they did so then the Theravada is corrupt from that moment, it must have been a plot that had the full support of thousands of monks from soon after the Buddhas parinibbana. These monks would have been well aware of suttas like this: Anguttara Nikaya II.23 Abhasita Sutta "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata." endquote You say that history was not a favourite activity in India. But the monks had a grave duty to preserve the teachings from decay. They were extremely diligent in reciting and passing on the Dhamma. It is because of them that the Tipitaka remains pristine, and available for all who wish to partake of the truths within. I'm not sure of your question about the Katthavathu? Do you mean the origin? This is explained in detail. The Atthasalini explains that when it came to the Kathavatthu the Buddha forsaw the future misintepretations that would arise. The Buddha then "laid down a table of contents in a text not quite as long as one recital, to be adopted in all the discourses.: Is the person known in the sense of real and ultimate fact? nay that cannot be. Acknowledge your refutation. Is the person unknown in the same way as any real and ultimate fact is known? Nay it cannot be. Acknowledge your refutation."" It carries on and repeats different questions in eight different aspects. In fact I think the section they are attributing directly to the Buddha is fairly brief. Knowing this it doesn't seem surprising that the Buddha should have taught it in expectation of future wrong views challenging the Dhamma. Few, of course, could never have expanded it in the beautiful way (or any way) that Mogaliputtatissa did - he was an arahant with the four discriminations. Thus there was no trying to say that every word of the Katthavathu was from the Buddha. Robertk 40966 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: Being full of it - cont. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > > When we are full of it - insincere, we cannot even know our true > intentions, they are hidden from us. > > Sincerity reveals our intention. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nori, As I have explained in the previous reply post you may know that it is totally different between sincerity and insincerity. Example: Lobha cittas can never be sincere. But kusala cittas are always always sincere. Again lobha and chanda are a bit similar for lay people of uninstructed ones. Why are they similar? Because chanda arises in both akusala and kusala dhamma. But lobha cetasika never arise in kusala citta. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40967 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: Being full of it Dear Nori, Thanks for interesting post. Htoo Naing PS: Please see the discussion below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nori wrote: When we are full of it, we suffer as a result. Lying and deception goes far beyond speech and outward actions. It goes deeper. Lying, deception, and insincerity exists within ourselves in our deepest thoughts. We can fool ourselves into believing we have the intention of doing one thing (like doing what is good, or helping another) but in reality having a whole other intention, like creating an outward display for whoever and whatever reason. Whatever actions we perform, let them be sincere for how can any insincere action be any good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nori, Your post is good and simple. When closely consider on the matter you mentioned a light comes to my mind. It is cittujukata and kayujukata cetasikas pair. It is uprightness of citta and uprightness of cetasikas. They never break their function. They never lie. They never deceive. They never go insincere. That is why I am always trying to explain different cittas again and again. When cittas are not understood then one will not be able to differentiate between good and bad. Example is the different between 1.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vippayutta asankharika lobha citta & 2.somanassa sahagatam nana sampayutta asankharika mahakusala citta They are quite close. Both has piti. Both are asankharika cittas. Both are ditthi vippayutta cittas. But cittujukata and kayujukata do not reside in lobha cittas. Because lobha citta can never be sincere however lobha is saying I am sincere. But cittujukata and kayujukata are always sincere and never deceive anything or anyone. The deeper you understand Dhamma the clearer between kusala dhamma and akusala dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40968 From: Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi All The Abhidhamma Pitaka has no history contained within as far as I know. The history is contained within the Sutta and Vinaya Pitaka. Isn't it amazing that with the volume and scope of the Sutta Pitaka, that there would be no reference to the Abhidhamma Pitaka? What one might think of as the most important part of the Buddha's teaching. That it wouldn't be referenced in the Suttas, if it existed durring the Buddha's life, would basically be an impossibility to my mind. As far as the legend of the Buddha going to heaven to teach the Abhidhamma Pitaka for 3 months...its a nice story. A typical way of trying to lay credibility to something that on its own cannot claim such credibility. In the Mahayana tradition, those (later) Sutras were claimed to have been kept in "Dragon Worlds" and that explains why they were not found in the older records. Now, a Mahayanist could certainly take the case, that anyone who didn't fully believe they were the authentic teachings of the Buddha and taught such... was incurring bad kamma. Those are religious zealot and propaganda tactics. And I suppose a Mahayanist could say by doubting that the Sutras were the authentic teachings of the Buddha, one could never understand them properly and could not become enlightened with that mindset. I don't know for a fact whether the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha or not. It just seems unlikely to me. However, I think that is meaningless. If the Abhidhamma is useful to minds; in freeing them from suffering, than it is valuable. The Buddha said -- that whatever was taught that would accord with his teaching and achieve the purpose of lowering suffering...consider it part of his teaching as well. That means, if there are aspects in other religions, science, or other endeavors; that are helpful in developing insight or leading a life with less suffering, they can be considered valued and along the lines of what the Buddha taught also. We can have our "attachments" to our beliefs, about what is or isn't the exact words of the Buddha. We can hang on to them tightly. As long as we do, we are VERY stuck in Samsara. The Buddha also said to -- let go of your beliefs easily. The Proof will be in the Pudding, not in theorizing about the pudding. TG 40969 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:17pm Subject: Re: A perspective on meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > > A perspective on meditation > > I think that many people when thinking of what to do during > meditation, they think of focusing their awareness onto the breath. > This is not without good reason, it being the first instruction in the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta. But the breath is not 'put away' after the first tetrad. You continue on while breathing in and out. Having at least a modicum of attention directed towards the breath helps to keep it 'real' and remain in the moment and not be deluded by imagination. > > However it is interesting to note that in the Samanna-Phala Suttanta, > the second discourse in the Digha Nikaya, there is no mention of the > breath in the section that describes meditation. Maybe this is because > what was included is the foremost objective while sitting (Putting > away the hankering after the world, purifying oneself of the > hindrances), the rest of the instruction (in Satipatthana Sutta, > Anapanasati Sutta) being only a means to this end. Maybe it is > important not to get caught up in the specific method, or specifics in > general, and keeping the main intention foremost during sitting. What you post below seems to be a synopsis or generalization of meditation. As there are different ways to purify the mind and overcome the hindrances. That is, it does not say how to purify ones mind like it does in the Anapanasati Sutta. I like to consider what I am about to engage in before formal sitting practice i.e. why am I doing this? But while one is engaged in the pracice it seems to me to be about a specific method until the method becomes second nature so to speak. PEACE E > I will recall the section here: > > D.II (Pali Text Society) > > 67. `Then master of this so excellent body or moral precepts, gifted > with this so excellent self-restraint as to the senses, endowed with > this so excellent mindfulness and self-possession, filled with this so > excellent content, he chooses some lonely spot to rest at on his way - > in the woods, at the foot of a tree, on a hill side, in a mountain > glen, in a rocky cave, in a charnel place, or on a heap of straw in > the open field. And returning thither after his round for alms he > seats himself, when his meal is done, cross legged, keeping his body > erect, and his intelligence alert, intent. > > 68. `Putting away the hankering after the world, he remains with a > heart that hankers not, and purifies his mind of lusts. Putting away > the corruption of the wish to injure, he remains with a heart free > from ill temper, and purifies his mind of malevolence. Putting away > torpor of heart and mind, keeping his ideas alight, mindful and self > possessed, he purifies his mind of weakness and sloth. Putting away > flurry and worry, he remains free from fretfulness, and with heart > serene within, he purifies himself of irritability and vexation of > spirit. Putting away wavering, he remains as one passed beyond > perplexity; and no longer in suspense as to what is good, he purifies > his mind of doubt. 40970 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:23pm Subject: Re: Radiation of Metta Friend Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello All, > > I have been reading the Story of Roja the Malla from the Mahâvagga, > Vinaya Pitaka, in the chapter on Medicines - Rajamallavatthu. > http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Pesala/Love/love.html > > I find it a little unsettling. It seems to state that Metta can be > used to alter the behaviour of another. Or, if it is only the metta > radiated by the Buddha that can influence others so strongly ... Well, it is nice to know that there is textual evidence for this and I wasn't aware of this textual evidence before. I do remember having a very lengthy discussion with you, however, about how metta could be radiated; how the Buddha taught that it could be radiated; and that metta could be used to influence other's behavior. Remember that thread? Remember how you disagreed so strongly with me? ;-) Anyway, hate to say I told you so, but I did tell you so! ;- )) why > was Roja so assisted, and others not? It wouldn't have been proper for the Buddha to frequently use metta, or mind influence, to directly affect others lives; that is why he generally radiated metta to all beings. However, in this instance, as a personal favor to Ven. Ananda, he focused on one person for that one person's benefit. Really, it was all kamma. > > metta and peace, > Christine Metta, James 40971 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Friend Robert K., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: >> Dear Friend James, > > Someone learning about Dhamma may/will have doubts about the > Tipitaka and Theravada.?@Doubt is conditioned and it must arise. > However, saying that the Abhidhamma was invented by later monks is a > heavy accusation. It is in effect saying that the ancient Sangha > were liars who put words in the Buddha's mouth. This is kamma of a > serious degree. > If you are right and it is an invention, then the Theravada > tradition is corrupt since its beginnings and the Sasana of the > Buddha has fallen, I do not believe that is the case. I don't imagine the situation to be quite as devious as you suggest. Have you ever played the game "Pass it On"? In this game, one person will whisper a statement in someone's ear, and that person will whisper the same statement in the next person's ear, etc., etc., and the goal is to keep the message the same. However, what invariable happens is that by the time the message gets to the end of the people it has completely changed. Stories start as small seeds and then they grow into something that they weren't before. What I imagine is that some monks began to codify their experiences during meditation so that they could discuss them and write about them. One monk suggests that what they have come up with is so good that the Buddha could have taught it. Eventually the monks are talking about how what they came up with was so good that the Buddha did teach it. Eventually, there evolves a whole story as to why, how, and when the Buddha taught it. Now, in this case, who is responsible? No one really. It is human nature to create legends and myths. However, I do believe that Buddhaghosa went a little too far to push the `Abhidhamma Agenda', but I won't go into that right now. > > If one questions because they want to learn more about Abhidhamma > their doubts may lessen in proportion as wisdom develops - but if > not they would be wise to keep an open mind and not wilfully try to > diminish the importance of Abhidhamma. > If they should cause others to have doubts, then the kamma is that > much worse. I am a moderator of triplegem group and because of this > we don't allow posts along such lines- this is a protection for the > writer. I don't belong to that group, but I don't believe in censorship in any form and for any reason. Actually, I find this group way too stifling and "classroom like" for my taste usually, but the most intelligent and wise Buddhists are here…so I hang out! ;-)) I won't join your group. Let me be responsible for my own kamma. > RobertK Metta, James 40972 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:13pm Subject: Re: A perspective on meditation Hi Nori - I am pleased to read your post again after a long pause. Last time we discussed the Contemplation of Vedana by G.N. Goenka. Nori: However it is interesting to note that in the Samanna-Phala Suttanta, the second discourse in the Digha Nikaya, there is no mention of the breath in the section that describes meditation. ... ... Maybe it is important not to get caught up in the specific method, or specifics in general, and keeping the main intention foremost during sitting. T: The Samannaphala Sutta [DN2], on the contrary, contains much more specific information about the training/practice involving the followings: the precepts, sense restraint, mindfulness and alertness, insight knowledges, abandoning the hindrances, the four jhanas, man- made body, supranormal powers, clairaudience, mind reading, recollection of past lives, the passing-away and reappearance of beings, and the ending of mental fermentations. The details in this long sutta are much more specific than the steps in the Anapanasati sutta ! For example, the part on meditation alone is longer than the Satipatthana sutta. (Abandoning the Hindrances) "Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and alertness, and this noble contentment, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty. "Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness. "Now suppose that a man falls sick -- in pain and seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals, and there is no strength in his body. As time passes, he eventually recovers from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and there is strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am recovered from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and there is strength in my body.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness. "Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. As time passes, he eventually is released from that bondage, safe and sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe and sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness. "Now suppose that a man is a slave, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. As time passes, he eventually is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness. "Now suppose that a man, carrying money and goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. As time passes, he eventually emerges from that desolate country, safe and sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money and goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe and sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness. "In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. (The Four Jhanas) "Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. "This is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation -- internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure. "This, too, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters and remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous and mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. "This, too, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress -- he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. "This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. (Insight Knowledge) "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water -- eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread -- and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' "This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. ---------------------------------------------------------- So it is not true that DN 2 is less specific than the Anapasati 4 tetrads. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > > A perspective on meditation > > I think that many people when thinking of what to do during > meditation, they think of focusing their awareness onto the breath. > This is not without good reason, it being the first instruction in the > Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta. > > However it is interesting to note that in the Samanna-Phala Suttanta, > the second discourse in the Digha Nikaya, there is no mention of the > breath in the section that describes meditation. Maybe this is because > what was included is the foremost objective while sitting (Putting > away the hankering after the world, purifying oneself of the > hindrances), the rest of the instruction (in Satipatthana Sutta, > Anapanasati Sutta) being only a means to this end. Maybe it is > important not to get caught up in the specific method, or specifics in > general, and keeping the main intention foremost during sitting. > > I will recall the section here: > > D.II (Pali Text Society) > > 67. `Then master of this so excellent body or moral precepts, gifted > with this so excellent self-restraint as to the senses, endowed with > this so excellent mindfulness and self-possession, filled with this so > excellent content, he chooses some lonely spot to rest at on his way - > in the woods, at the foot of a tree, on a hill side, in a mountain > glen, in a rocky cave, in a charnel place, or on a heap of straw in > the open field. And returning thither after his round for alms he > seats himself, when his meal is done, cross legged, keeping his body > erect, and his intelligence alert, intent. > > 68. `Putting away the hankering after the world, he remains with a > heart that hankers not, and purifies his mind of lusts. Putting away > the corruption of the wish to injure, he remains with a heart free > from ill temper, and purifies his mind of malevolence. Putting away > torpor of heart and mind, keeping his ideas alight, mindful and self > possessed, he purifies his mind of weakness and sloth. Putting away > flurry and worry, he remains free from fretfulness, and with heart > serene within, he purifies himself of irritability and vexation of > spirit. Putting away wavering, he remains as one passed beyond > perplexity; and no longer in suspense as to what is good, he purifies > his mind of doubt. 40973 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:33pm Subject: Re: Radiation of Metta Hello James, all, This isn't a sutta, a teaching of the Budda - it is a story about the Buddha - and the part I found unsettling in this story, is that a man's ability to make independent decisions and be responsible for his own intentional action was 'taken over'. "Immediately, Roja felt a feeling of immense reverence for the Buddha. It is said that his state of mind was like that of a new- born calf, which has a deep attachment to its mother. Roja could not help himself, he began searching all over the monastery for the Buddha. Directed by the monks, he soon found his way to the Buddha's residence. He sat in the Buddha's presence, worshipping him with great devotion". Personally, I find this rather horrifying - "Roja could not help himself" - sounds like some form of instantaneous brain-washing. peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Friend Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello All, > > > > I have been reading the Story of Roja the Malla from the > Mahâvagga, > > Vinaya Pitaka, in the chapter on Medicines - Rajamallavatthu. > > http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Pesala/Love/love.html > > > > I find it a little unsettling. It seems to state that Metta can > be > > used to alter the behaviour of another. Or, if it is only the > metta > > radiated by the Buddha that can influence others so strongly ... > > Well, it is nice to know that there is textual evidence for this and > I wasn't aware of this textual evidence before. I do remember > having a very lengthy discussion with you, however, about how metta > could be radiated; how the Buddha taught that it could be radiated; > and that metta could be used to influence other's behavior. > Remember that thread? Remember how you disagreed so strongly with > me? ;-) Anyway, hate to say I told you so, but I did tell you so! ;- > )) > > > why > > was Roja so assisted, and others not? > > It wouldn't have been proper for the Buddha to frequently use metta, > or mind influence, to directly affect others lives; that is why he > generally radiated metta to all beings. However, in this instance, > as a personal favor to Ven. Ananda, he focused on one person for > that one person's benefit. Really, it was all kamma. > > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > Metta, > James 40974 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:56pm Subject: Re: A perspective on meditation Thanks Tep! I should have known better, as the DN is nothing but long intricate suttas. :) PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Nori - > > I am pleased to read your post again after a long pause. Last time we > discussed the Contemplation of Vedana by G.N. Goenka. > > Nori: However it is interesting to note that in the Samanna-Phala > Suttanta, the second discourse in the Digha Nikaya, there is no > mention of the breath in the section that describes meditation. ... ... > Maybe it is important not to get caught up in the specific method, or > specifics in general, and keeping the main intention foremost during > sitting. > > > T: The Samannaphala Sutta [DN2], on the contrary, contains much > more specific information about the training/practice involving the > followings: the precepts, sense restraint, mindfulness and alertness, > insight knowledges, abandoning the hindrances, the four jhanas, man- > made body, supranormal powers, clairaudience, mind reading, > recollection of past lives, the passing-away and reappearance of > beings, and the ending of mental fermentations. The details in this long > sutta are much more specific than the steps in the Anapanasati sutta ! > For example, the part on meditation alone is longer than the > Satipatthana sutta. > > (Abandoning the Hindrances) > "Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over > the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and alertness, and this > noble contentment, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the > shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a > jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning > from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body > erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. > > "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an > awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of > covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an > awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living > beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth > and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and > drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of > sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells > undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of > restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having > crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental > qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty. > > "Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. > His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and there is > extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to > him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my > business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and > there is extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he > would experience joy and happiness. > > "Now suppose that a man falls sick -- in pain and seriously ill. He does > not enjoy his meals, and there is no strength in his body. As time > passes, he eventually recovers from that sickness. He enjoys his > meals and there is strength in his body. The thought would occur to > him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am recovered from that sickness. I > enjoy my meals and there is strength in my body.' Because of that he > would experience joy and happiness. > > "Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. As time passes, he > eventually is released from that bondage, safe and sound, with no loss > of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in > prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe and sound, with no > loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy and > happiness. > > "Now suppose that a man is a slave, subject to others, not subject to > himself, unable to go where he likes. As time passes, he eventually is > released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, > freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to > him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, > subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' > Because of that he would experience joy and happiness. > > "Now suppose that a man, carrying money and goods, is traveling by a > road through desolate country. As time passes, he eventually emerges > from that desolate country, safe and sound, with no loss of property. > The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money and goods, I > was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged > from that desolate country, safe and sound, with no loss of my > property.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness. > > "In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in > himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a > road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are > abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, > release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they > have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he > becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body > tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind > becomes concentrated. > > (The Four Jhanas) > > "Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental > qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure > born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and > evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very > body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a > skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into > a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with > water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, moisture- laden, > permeated within and without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, > the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure > born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by > rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. > > "This is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more > excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. > > "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, he > enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and > evaluation -- internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, > suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of > composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, > having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies > supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of > water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, > suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake > unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this > very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is > nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of > composure. > > "This, too, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more > excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. > > "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, > mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters and > remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones > declare, 'Equanimous and mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He > permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the > pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the > lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and > flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated > and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to > their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool > water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure > divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with > pleasure divested of rapture. > > "This, too, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more > excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. > > "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress -- as with > the earlier disappearance of elation and distress -- he enters and > remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, > neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, > bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to > foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which > the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the > body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body > unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. > > "This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and > now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. > > (Insight Knowledge) > > "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, > free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to > imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He > discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the > four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice > and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, > and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and > bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest > water -- eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its > aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, > white, or brown thread -- and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his > hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the > purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in > all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, > red, white, or brown thread.' In the same way -- with his mind thus > concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, > pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk > directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body > of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, > born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject > to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this > consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' > > "This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and > now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > So it is not true that DN 2 is less specific than the Anapasati 4 tetrads. > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep > > ===== > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" > wrote: > > > > A perspective on meditation > > > > I think that many people when thinking of what to do during > > meditation, they think of focusing their awareness onto the breath. > > This is not without good reason, it being the first instruction in the > > Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta. > > > > However it is interesting to note that in the Samanna-Phala Suttanta, > > the second discourse in the Digha Nikaya, there is no mention of the > > breath in the section that describes meditation. Maybe this is because > > what was included is the foremost objective while sitting (Putting > > away the hankering after the world, purifying oneself of the > > hindrances), the rest of the instruction (in Satipatthana Sutta, > > Anapanasati Sutta) being only a means to this end. Maybe it is > > important not to get caught up in the specific method, or specifics in > > general, and keeping the main intention foremost during sitting. > > > > I will recall the section here: > > > > D.II (Pali Text Society) > > > > 67. `Then master of this so excellent body or moral precepts, gifted > > with this so excellent self-restraint as to the senses, endowed with > > this so excellent mindfulness and self-possession, filled with this so > > excellent content, he chooses some lonely spot to rest at on his way - > > in the woods, at the foot of a tree, on a hill side, in a mountain > > glen, in a rocky cave, in a charnel place, or on a heap of straw in > > the open field. And returning thither after his round for alms he > > seats himself, when his meal is done, cross legged, keeping his body > > erect, and his intelligence alert, intent. > > > > 68. `Putting away the hankering after the world, he remains with a > > heart that hankers not, and purifies his mind of lusts. Putting away > > the corruption of the wish to injure, he remains with a heart free > > from ill temper, and purifies his mind of malevolence. Putting away > > torpor of heart and mind, keeping his ideas alight, mindful and self > > possessed, he purifies his mind of weakness and sloth. Putting away > > flurry and worry, he remains free from fretfulness, and with heart > > serene within, he purifies himself of irritability and vexation of > > spirit. Putting away wavering, he remains as one passed beyond > > perplexity; and no longer in suspense as to what is good, he purifies > > his mind of doubt. 40975 From: nori Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:36pm Subject: Re: A perspective on meditation Hi Tep, Good to hear from you also. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ... > So it is not true that DN 2 is less specific than the Anapasati 4 tetrads. > My point was not that the Samanna-Phala was any less specific. My point is that anything in regards to breath was left out in the section on meditation, and made the opinion that what was left in was the main intention of meditation. nori 40976 From: Andrew Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi TG I don't know why I am entering this fray, but I am. Pardon my snipping but I only have a few queries interspersed below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > As far as the legend of the Buddha going to heaven to teach the Abhidhamma > Pitaka for 3 months...its a nice story. A typical way of trying to lay > credibility to something that on its own cannot claim such credibility. AT: I have read, within the Sutta Pitika, many seemingly odd things about seemingly odd beings in seemingly odd realms. In many of these suttas, it is the Buddha himself who is speaking. About the anger- eating yakkha, for example. How do you cope with such passages, TG? Do you hold that the Buddha was speaking allegorically? If so, I would love for you to share the key to the allegories. If not, your mind must be open to such "crazy" notions as inter-realm travel, I assume? Do you admit to that? For the moment, and for the sake of discussion, please don't fall back onto the Kalama Sutta which Bhikkhu Bodhi seems to suggest is not determinative for one such as you in these matters: www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/kalama1_1.htm > We can have our "attachments" to our beliefs, about what is or isn't the > exact words of the Buddha. We can hang on to them tightly. As long as we do, we > are VERY stuck in Samsara. The Buddha also said to -- let go of your beliefs > easily. AT: Let's not beat around the bush. If hearing and reflecting on the true Dhamma is to be done, does this not entail forming - or the arising of - beliefs (or views)? When you say the Buddha said to let go of beliefs easily, what exactly do you mean? What if the belief in question happens to be "right view"? Surely it is not "you" hanging on to beliefs tightly or letting them go easily but rather a conditioned process that changes from moment to moment flavoured by ignorance or understanding? That's what makes these historical-type discussions quite redundant in the end, isn't it. Best wishes Andrew T 40977 From: Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Andrew T In a message dated 1/13/2005 3:47:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: AT: I have read, within the Sutta Pitika, many seemingly odd things about seemingly odd beings in seemingly odd realms. In many of these suttas, it is the Buddha himself who is speaking. About the anger- eating yakkha, for example. How do you cope with such passages, TG? Do you hold that the Buddha was speaking allegorically? If so, I would love for you to share the key to the allegories. If not, your mind must be open to such "crazy" notions as inter-realm travel, I assume? Do you admit to that? For the moment, and for the sake of discussion, please don't fall back onto the Kalama Sutta which Bhikkhu Bodhi seems to suggest is not determinative for one such as you in these matters: www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/kalama1_1.htm TG: Even without believing in religious ideas, there seems to be reasonable evidence of rebirth, ghosts, and other types of states, or energies, to make such notions or statements regarding such -- less than nonsense. Therefore I have an open mind concerning such "super-normal" states. Having experienced some "transcendental" states through meditation, I know that there are experiences beyond the norm that cannot be comprehended with words. When I read the Buddha's teachings that contain elements as you suggest above, I neither believe it nor dis-believe it. I might be literal fact, and it might not be. Some of those types of statements, might be later insertions, designed to inspire a population who already believed in such things. A population, where Buddhist's were vying for popular supremacy and or survival with Hindu's... who did believe in such things. Buddhist's ended up losing that "battle" in India. At least until recently. At any rate, it doesn't make me any more or less inclined to study the Buddha's teaching. I simply "read through" those passages to extract the lessons that those stories contain. The lessons involved with overcoming suffering. > We can have our "attachments" to our beliefs, about what is or isn't the > exact words of the Buddha. We can hang on to them tightly. As long as we do, we > are VERY stuck in Samsara. The Buddha also said to -- let go of your beliefs > easily. AT: Let's not beat around the bush. If hearing and reflecting on the true Dhamma is to be done, does this not entail forming - or the arising of - beliefs (or views)? When you say the Buddha said to let go of beliefs easily, what exactly do you mean? What if the belief in question happens to be "right view"? Surely it is not "you" hanging on to beliefs tightly or letting them go easily but rather a conditioned process that changes from moment to moment flavoured by ignorance or understanding? That's what makes these historical-type discussions quite redundant in the end, isn't it. TG: The question is not -- What do I mean?... The question is -- What did the Buddha mean? I think the Buddha meant that even in terms of his teaching, one should not be attached to it in such a way that disputes or vexations would arise from such attachments. As for the second part of your question... Yes, these are all conditioned processes. We agree on that. The ignorance or understanding are also conditioned processes. There's not even any reason to state them separately as if they were "flavoring" conditioned processes. Whatever arises is just all absolutely pure conditioned processes. Even concepts. Best wishes Andrew T TG [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 40978 From: Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Jon and Howard, I see you are discussing deliberate practice. What does this word "deliberate" mean to you? I would think one possibility is "strongly intentional with an expectation of a particular result", or "intending a particular result". It is true that there are particular results that arise from javana cittas, intentional consciousnesses, and these results follow a fixed order, kusala consciousnesses result in kusala results. So in this sense intentions are always accomplished. Another possibility for "deliberate" is "prompted" or "unprompted". I'm not sure how this works out in terms of tranquility and insight. On a sense sphere level I would think kusala cittas could be either prompted or unprompted, but jhana cittas and lokuttara cittas are not classified in this way. Does that mean they are not deliberate? Clearly, tranquility and insight is cultivated by all Buddhists. Finally, "deliberate" could refer to a sense of self as doer. This is clearly a wrong view. If you are prompted to give and you respond by giving with a sense of self as giver I would think the appropriate response would be to go ahead and give the gift but let go of the sense of self as giver. Similarly, if you are open to the Buddha's prompting to cultivate tranquility and insight but a sense of self as meditator arises the "right" response is to abandon that sense of self but continue with the practice. As I read over this it doesn't seem entirely coherent, but maybe your input can clarify. Larry 40979 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi TG Thanks for your reply. Did you read Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on the Kalama Sutta? Any comments? At any point in time, saddha is present or it isn't. When you study Abhidhamma, do you ever consider that you have moments when saddha is present? Andrew T 40980 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:24am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 98- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (j) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** While we study the different aspects of cetanå we can see that cetanå is different as it arises with different cittas. Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta “wills” kusala or akusala and it is capable of producing vipåka; it is, except in the case of cetanå which accompanies magga-citta, abhisaòkhåra or kamma formation. The cetanås which accompany rúpåvacara citta and arúpåvacara citta can produce rebirth in higher planes of existence, in rúpa-brahma planes and arúpa-brahma planes, they are a link in the Dependant Origination. Cetanå which accompanies vipåkacitta is vipåka, it is produced by akusala kamma or kusala kamma. This type of cetanå has only the function of coordinating the other dhammas it accompanies. The cetanå which accompanies kiriyacitta is not kusala or akusala, nor is it vipåka; it is of the jåti which is kiriya, inoperative. This type of cetanå has only the function of coordinating. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40981 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:48am Subject: Pali, Pali and New to the list Hi Dave & all, You asked me (off-list) to recommend any books which would get you ‘up to speed’ and mentioned the amount of Pali terminology used. I hope you don’t mind if I reply on list as others may also be able to give suggestions. Firstly, I know that for many new members and quite a few old members, the Pali terms must be quite daunting or off-putting. I’d like to recommend the following for any newcomers: 1. Ignore posts that are too Pali-packed and off-putting for now. 2. Ask any posters for any explanations or definitions anytime. You’ll do others a favour too. 3. Print out the simple Pali glossary from the files which includes the main terms used. 4. Have Nyantiloka’s on-line dictionary handy and also the PTS dict too. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html 5. Start your own non-Pali filled theads. Others will follow your lead. ***** With regard to books. I’d recommend Nina’s ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ available on line: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Also B.Bodhi’s translations of Samyutta Nikaya, Majjhima Nikaya and the Anguttara anthology. Many of us are very happy to discuss any of the suttas from these. I’ll let others add other suggestions. I’d also like to stress that newcomers do us all a favour by asking what may seem like obvious or basic questions. These are usually the best ones. Also please tell us more about your background, interest and where you live as this also gives us more clues about what may be helpful. (For example, those originally from Buddhist countries are usually happier to see more Pali terms used). Hope to hear from you and others with further recommendations/comments/feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s Also scroll down through ‘Useful Posts’ in the files section to particular categories that may be helpful, e.g ‘Abhidhamma-beginners’, ‘Discouraged?’, ‘New to the List’. When it all becomes a bit too much, try ‘Zany’;-). ======================= 40982 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:14am Subject: Re: Radiation of Metta Friend Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello James, all, > > This isn't a sutta, a teaching of the Budda - it is a story about > the Buddha - and the part I found unsettling in this story, is > that a man's ability to make independent decisions and be > responsible for his own intentional action was 'taken over'. > > "Immediately, Roja felt a feeling of immense reverence for the > Buddha. It is said that his state of mind was like that of a new- > born calf, which has a deep attachment to its mother. Roja could not > help himself, he began searching all over the monastery for the > Buddha. Directed by the monks, he soon found his way to the Buddha's > residence. He sat in the Buddha's presence, worshipping him with > great devotion". > > Personally, I find this rather horrifying - "Roja could not help > himself" - sounds like some form of instantaneous brain-washing. > > peace, > Christine I could see how you might interpret this situation in this way, but I think you are looking at it from a narrow perspective. `Brainwashing' implies that someone is forced to think in a way that is unnatural and wrong. The Buddha didn't brainwash Roja, he simply radiated metta toward him. In other words, he wished the best for him; he wished love for him; he wished happiness for him…he sent the type of love to him that a mother sends to her child. This is a pure, unstained love that has no evil intentions or harming ability. Now, Roja probably responded so quickly and so strongly because it was the Buddha radiating this metta! We can all radiate this type of metta to people, and help them (influence them toward good), and it will work, in my opinion; but when the Buddha does it, watch out! That is some pretty strong metta coming your way! ;-) So, Roja was mired in the three poisons: greed, hatred, and delusion; and the Buddha radiated metta toward him for his benefit. What I believe happened is that the influence of this metta brought out Roja's good roots: Non-greed, non-hate, and non-delusion. The Buddha didn't put something in Roja's mind that wasn't already there; the potential was already there. The Buddha simply provided the `nourishment of metta' to allow those good roots to grow into beautiful states of mind. Consequently, Roja became a sotapanna. This is why I stress the importance of metta meditation, because it benefits not only oneself but also others. (I know the harsh language I use in posts may make it seem like I am a real jerk sometimes, but I am not really that way. I wish metta for everyone, everyday. Please don't judge me by my language—and I am working on that. Am I getting better? Don't answer that! ;-)). Metta, James 40983 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:51am Subject: Feeling from Above ... !!! Friends: The Phenomena of Feeling: 1: What is Feeling ? The bodily or mental experience of Pleasure, Pain & Neutral Indifference... 2: What Causes Feeling ? Contact by the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind, Causes Feeling to Arise... 3: What Ceases Feeling ? Ending of the very same Contact, causes the arised Feeling to Cease instantly... 4: What is the Way to Silence Feeling ? The Noble 8-fold Way: Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness & Right Concentration, is the Way to allay, tranquilize, calm, quiet, silence, still, settle, soothe & cease all Feeling... 5: What is the Attraction within Feeling ? The associated Joy & tantalizing Satisfaction, is the hot Attraction within Feeling... 6: What is the Danger within Feeling ? The inevitable instability, change, fading & sure ending, is the Danger within Feeling... 7: What is the final Escape from Feeling ? Complete & irreversible elimination of Desire for Feeling, is the Escape from Feeling... --oo0oo-- Source: Samyutta Nikaya IV [233]: The Buddha's Grouped speeches on Feeling: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=10553 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 40984 From: dsgmods Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: ... > It's not that there is > any less thinking about Dhamma - it still goes on most of the time > for me. > But the thinking is far less caught up in self-image. ... But the last few days, > when I thought our computer was dead for good there was no > consideration of DSG whatsoever, no thoughts about posting, and the > Dhamma reflections were somehow much purer. This is *my* accumulation > we're talking about - nobody elses. Thanks for sharing these thoughts. I'm sure most people here can relate to what you're saying about akusala moments in amongst the kusala. That is how it is for now, and how it will be for a long, long time to come ;-)) Another example of a similar kind of thing: some people find that going on the trips to India is a condition for more dosa than normal. Does that mean they'd be better off not going? I think not, because the important thing is the benefit in terms of the development of right view and understanding in the long run rather than how much or little dosa, mana or other kilesa one is having in the meantime. As Azita reminds us, patience, courage and good cheer are necessary. > To be honest, Naomi and I don't > have friends to speak of here and DSG has become a social outlet for > me, and that aspect gets involved in my Dhamma reflections related to > DSG. Worldly concerns. Wanting to be liked and embraced by the group. > Nothing wrong with that, but Dhamma reflections that are conditioned > by that sort of thing are obviously not as free of worldly wrong view. > So this doesn't relate to thinking about Dhamma in general - it's my > accumulations, my circumstances. Everyone has different ones that > will condition the way the thinking goes on. Again, I'm sure there are others in a similar position. For myself, outside of work and a bit of exercise, my dhamma interest and DSG in particular is pretty much the only thing I spend any time on. Plenty there to keep me occupied ;-)). Jon 40985 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:47pm Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Phil and all I've done it again, sent out a message without realising I was wearing my moderator's hat. Sorry about that. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dsgmods" wrote: > > Hi, Phil > 40967-40985 of 40985 | Previous | Next [ First | Last ] Msg # Date | Thread Collapse Messages Get messages in RSS Yahoo! My Yahoo! Mail Welcome, nichiconn [Sign Out, My Account] Groups Home - Help nichiconn · connieparker@intergate.com Start a Group - My Groups dhammastudygroup · Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Group Member [ Edit My Membership ] Home Messages Post Chat Files Photos Links Database Polls Calendar Promote = Owner = Moderator = Online Messages Messages Help Collapse Messages 40986-40999 of 40999 | Previous | Next [ First | Last ] Msg # Date | Thread 40986 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:28am Subject: Re: Pali, Pali and New to the list Hi, Sarah - Thank you very much for the valuable Pali usage guidelines for new members (including me). I notice that nearly (99.99%?) everyone here refer to Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta translations. Are there an online version of these excellent works? I have relied upon AccesstoInsight and MettaTipitaka for a long time and felt like a loner among the majority of deep-sea divers here. Any suggestion? Kindest regards, Tep ===== > > Also B.Bodhi's translations of Samyutta Nikaya, Majjhima Nikaya and the > Anguttara anthology. Many of us are very happy to discuss any of the > suttas from these. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Dave & all, > > You asked me (off-list) to recommend any books which would get you `up to > speed' and mentioned the amount of Pali terminology used. I hope you don't > mind if I reply on list as others may also be able to give suggestions. > > 40987 From: Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma In a message dated 1/14/2005 12:08:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: Hi TG Thanks for your reply. Did you read Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on the Kalama Sutta? Any comments? At any point in time, saddha is present or it isn't. When you study Abhidhamma, do you ever consider that you have moments when saddha is present? Andrew T Hi Andrew T I did not read B. Bodhi's article as far as I can recall. Re: Saddha... quoting from Nyanatiloka's Dictionary and the Suttas sources within... "His faith, however, should be reasoned and rooted in understanding." (M. 47). There are many other references in Nyanatiloka's Dictionary that ties faith with insight. Faith, as found in the Suttas, is almost always tied to an investigation how things function. When one understands how they function, they have a well-placed faith in them functioning accordingly. Faith is mental rectitude that is firm, true, and "leading-on" (The Path) when established on insight. Blind faith is a dead end that is equally liable to lead one downward as to lead one upward. A Muslim, who has so much faith in Allah, that he will kill himself to kill other people is a good example of bad consequences of blind faith. Since this is my perspective of faith, faith can arise when being mindful, when observing nature "unfolding," when reading Abhidhamma or a commentary, even when watching the news and seeing D.O. working in physical and psychical manners. And most especially when studying Suttas and being mindful of those teachings. In whatever case, or whatever environment, if one applies insight into D.O., impermanence, afflictions associated with attachment, and no-self, then insight and faith can arise together and well founded. Its not the Suttas or Abhidhamma I have faith in per se, its the principles of nature that are taught in the Suttas and Abhidhamma that I have faith in. Because they can be investigated and realized. By realizing those principles, through direct experience, faith in texts that teach and correspond with that experience, rises accordingly. TG [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 40988 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad Hi Kel, Nori, Sarah, Nina, and other interested members - Your recommended PDF file on Anapanasati (with commentaries) by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw gives a good Pali translation of the third tetrad. Here is the translated text and commentary (there were missing fonts and, as the consequence, the material is a little bit hard to read ): (Tetrad III) "I shall now show the third tetrad of the sutta, which gives the practice when entering jhŒna or full absorption. 1. "Experiencing the mind (consciousness), I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 2. "Making the mind extremely delighted, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 3. "Making the mind extremely concentrated, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 4. "Freeing the mind (from the defilements, hindrances, etc.), I will exhale and inhale,thus he trains himself. 1. "Perceiving the mind (citta-paÊisaµved´) means entering the four jhŒnas repeatedly in order to make the perception of the mind extremely clear. 2. "Making the mind extremely delighted (abhip-pamodayaµ cittaµ) means that when the perception of the mind is extremely clear, one makes the mind extremely delighted by repeatedly entering the first and second jhŒnas (which are associated with rapture, p´ti). 3. "Making the mind extremely concentrated (samŒdahaµ cittaµ) means that when the mind i s extremely delighted, one makes the mind extremely concentrated by entering the third and fourt h jhŒnas. 4. "Freeing the mind (vimocayaµ cittaµ) means freeing the mind of obstacles by repeatedly entering the four jhŒnas. [endquote of Anapana Dipani] Now, let's contrast the above to the 3rd tetrad translation we looked at earlier: "[ix] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [x] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [xi] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [xii] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind. I'd like to comment as follows: 1) Citta patisamvedhi = perceiving the mind or "sensitive to the mind". The two translations are different. I like the Sayadaw's better, but I like "knowing clearly" even more. 2) Abhip-pamodayam cittam = extremely delighted or "satisfying the mind". This is fine because satisfaction correlates to delight. But it is not clear to me why piti still has not been calmed down after the 2nd tetrad. 3) Samadaham cittam = extremely concentrated mind or "steady mind". This makes sense, because a steady or unified mind is concentrated. 4) vimocayam cittam = freeing the mind or releasing the mind. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw explains that mind is free in the sense of "entering the 4th jhana". Is that so because of equanimity(upekkha) or because of release(vimokkha= signless, desireless and emptiness or void)? Next I think I have to read Nina's research on Anapanasati and come back to discuss my finding. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > After reading your response, I remembered I have Anapana Dipani at > home in Burmese. As I was flipping through it, I thought to see if > there's english version available online. Here it is: > http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/wh43132.pdf > > Perhaps after you read it, we can discuss again? > > - kel 40989 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 0:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhanas Hi Sarah (and Nina) - I had looked at the Files section for the Anapanasati article by Nina, but I did not find that article. Maybe its location is hidden within another group of files. If it is not going to cause you much trouble, can you provide a more specific information about the file location for me, please? Thank you much! Respectfully yours, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > So far I have asked several experienced people, monks and lay > > Buddhists, to explain this 4-tetrad Anapanasati for me, but none of the > > interpretations I have received are similar. Yours is another unique > > one. > .... > S: As you've been enjoying Nina's comments and quotes, you may also like > to look at a very detailed series she wrote on the Anapansati sutta with > cross-refs from the Vism. It's all in Useful Posts under 'anapanasati'in > the files section, plus a number of other posts (mostly by her and Jon) > which were not in the series but which you may also like to look at. I > know they'd be glad for any of your feedback or Kel's of course. > > Meanwhile it's good to read your discussions with Kel on this difficult > topic. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ==== 40990 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 0:36pm Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" 2) Abhip-pamodayam cittam = extremely delighted or "satisfying the mind". This is fine because satisfaction correlates to delight. But it is not clear to me why piti still has not been calmed down after the 2nd tetrad. Coming from the 1st to the 2nd tetrad, the piti there is associated with a calm body. That is, it is dependent on calming the breath in the 4th step. The delight here is mind centered. That is, the delight is no longer dependent on the breath but upon mind itself. The frame of reference has shifted from body and vedana to mind. PEACE E 40991 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad Tep, > fonts and, as the consequence, the material is a little bit My apologies, here's the font you can download. http://accesstoinsight.org/extras/fonts/norman-pc.zip Just unzip it to your windows/fonts directly and restart acrobat reader. It's still missing some letters like q, but you can see most of pali words. > 2. "Making the mind extremely delighted (abhip-pamodayaµ cittaµ) > means that when the perception of the mind is extremely clear, one > makes the mind extremely delighted by repeatedly entering the first > and second jhŒnas (which are associated with rapture, p´ti). Repeatedly enter first and second jhanas to get even stronger and calmer piti. > clear to me why piti still has not been calmed down after the 2nd tetrad. Eric pointed out now it's based on the mind and not just one cetasika, vedana. I think also because there's different grades of piti. If you look at the bojjhangas, piti is one of the factors for magga-nana. > 4) vimocayam cittam = freeing the mind or releasing the mind. Ven. > Ledi Sayadaw explains that mind is free in the sense of "entering the > 4th jhana". Is that so because of equanimity(upekkha) or because of > release(vimokkha= signless, desireless and emptiness or void)? If you agree with commentary and Ledi's sayadaw work then it should be read as temporary suppression of defilements. Vipassana doesn't come till the 4th tetrad so the mind cannot be free of defilements by destruction yet. 4th jhana (5th by abhidhamma classification) is the puriest of the mundane jhanas and it also includes arupa jhanas. It is really the work of both upekkha and ekaggata, two characteristics of the jhana. - kel 40992 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhanas Anapanasati2 - Nina's Series 26931, 26973, 27146, 27161, 27255, 27314, 27400, 27439, 27483, 27561, 27581, 27670, 27840, 27863, 27934, 28055, 28184, 28215, 28245, 28303, 28422, 28447, 28478, 31907 those are the message numbers. You can find it in Files->useful posts, then scroll down. Unless I misunderstood your question then sorry. - kel 40993 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:26pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Hi Htoo, ------------- H:> Dear Ken O, This may or may not be condolences. But fathers are always fathers. Once there was a family who one day faced with passing away of a member of their family. They group together and they are cremating the corpse. But they do not have any tear in their eyes. 'Phutthassa lokadhammehi citta.m yassa nakampati asoka.m viraja.m khema.m eta.m mangalamuttama.m ' You all are not trembling with this bad lokadhamma. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! May you be calm and be with Dhamma. ---------------- Thank you, Htoo, for your kind thoughts and for that very nice story. As I understand it, the family in the story were not deliberately refraining from tears (as in a formal practice of some kind). Thanks to their Dhamma study, they knew that akusala moments were bound to arise - by conditions - and so, when sadness did arise, they simply acknowledged it and let it fall away again - without obsessing over it too much. They returned to normality before the tears could arise. This is one of the many ways in which even beginners like me can benefit from the Dhamma. Regards, Ken H (By the way, you might be confusing me with Ken O again. :-) ) 40994 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhanas Hi, Tep (and Kel) Kel has already kindly given you the relevant file numbers (thanks, Kel), but for future reference it's in the 'Useful Posts' file (4th item from the top) of the Files section. Scroll down to the heading 'Anapanasati2'. I'm appreciating your discussion on this thread, and am looking forward to your comments on Nina'a posts which as I recall are mainly trasnlation of commentary material. Very valuable stuff, IMO. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Sarah (and Nina) - > > I had looked at the Files section for the Anapanasati article by Nina, but > I did not find that article. Maybe its location is hidden within another > group of files. > > If it is not going to cause you much trouble, can you provide a more > specific information about the file location for me, please? > > Thank you much! > > > Respectfully yours, > > > Tep > > ==== 40995 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:27pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > ------------- > H:> Dear Ken O, > > This may or may not be condolences. But fathers are always fathers. > > Once there was a family who one day faced with passing away of a > member of their family. > > They group together and they are cremating the corpse. But they do > not have any tear in their eyes. > > > > 'Phutthassa lokadhammehi citta.m yassa nakampati asoka.m viraja.m > khema.m eta.m mangalamuttama.m ' > > You all are not trembling with this bad lokadhamma. Sadhu Sadhu > Sadhu! > > May you be calm and be with Dhamma. > ---------------- > > Thank you, Htoo, for your kind thoughts and for that very nice > story. > > As I understand it, the family in the story were not deliberately > refraining from tears (as in a formal practice of some kind). Thanks > to their Dhamma study, they knew that akusala moments were bound to > arise - by conditions - and so, when sadness did arise, they simply > acknowledged it and let it fall away again - without obsessing over > it too much. They returned to normality before the tears could arise. > > This is one of the many ways in which even beginners like me can > benefit from the Dhamma. > > Regards, > Ken H > (By the way, you might be confusing me with Ken O again. :-) ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken H, I am sorry. Yes. I was confused. Actually I should have noticed the address kenhowardau. The man who died in the story was the son. The father and the son used to go ploughing in the early morning. The son died of snake bite. The father knew his son was bitten by a snake. Still he was not much tremble. Normally at the break the father met his wife or his daughter-in-law and asked for 2-meals. This time the father asked for one-meal. It was the wife. But she was not reported that her son was dead. But from the context she knew her son died. The wife of young man also came to know when her mother-in-law asked her to prepare one-meal [instead of 2-meals]. Christine may know the story. Christine please! In the whole story the main theme is 'naka.mpati' 'not trembling'. Actually they were not arahats. They were not anagams. They must have some suffering inside of their mind. But not manifested. Because they stayed with Dhamma. This is one of 38 blessings. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40996 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:49pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (233) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 3 samapattis or 3 states of reaching. They are 1.jhana- samapatti or 'being in jhana' or 'staying in jhana' or 'developing jhana', 2.phala-samapatti or 'staying in fruition-consciousness', and 3.nirodha-samapatti or 'reaching the state of cessation'. Jhana-samapatti has been explained in the previous post. In this post phala-samapatti will be discussed to some details. 'Phalasamaapatti vithiya.m panettha sabbesampi yathaasaka phala vasena saadhaaranaava.' All beings who are 'phalatthana puggalas' or 'fruition-consciousness attainers' can do phala-samapatti. This means that sotapatti phalatthana puggala or 'stream enterers' can do sotapatti phala-samapatti. Sakadagami phalatthana puggala or 'once-returners' can do sakadagami phala-samapatti'. Anagami phalatthana puggala or 'non-returners' can do anagami phala- samapatti'. Arahatta phalatthana puggaka or 'arahats' can do arahatta phala- samapatti'. Just before phala-samapatti there arise kamavacara mahakusala javana vithi varas in case of the first three 'fruition-consciousness- attainers' that is stream enterers, once-returners, and non- returners. If one is an arahat then kamavacara mahakiriya javana vithi varas arise thinking to access to phala. At the end there arise bhavanga cittas. These cittas stop to arise at a time and there arises the first vithi citta in mano-dvara. It is manodvara-avajjana citta or mind-door- adverting consciousness'. It is followed by parikamma kamavacara citta, upacara kamavacara citta, anuloma kamavacara citta, and then followed by gotrabhu lineage-changing citta arise. As soon as it passes away, there follow uncountable phala cittas seeing nibbana. BBBBB....BBBMPUAGPhPhPhPhPhPhPhPhPhPhPh...PhPhPhPhPhPhPh....PhPhPhPhPh PhPhPhPhPhPhPh..infinity..PhPhPhPhPhPh....PhPhBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B = bhavanag citta M = manodvara-avajjana citta P = parikamma citta U = upacara citta A = anuloma citta G = gotrabhu citta Ph= phala citta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40997 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Kel, I wanted to finish responding to your previous message on this thread, but I have jumped ahead to your latest. -------------- Kel: > No, that citta corresponds to magga-nana. I was talking about the steps to get there, not the goal itself. > -------------- I think we agree that right understanding can arise at supramundane (magga) levels, at mundane (satipatthana) levels and at pre-insight (intellectual) levels. But you seem to think that the phrase, "Right Understanding comes first," (as in the Great Forty Sutta) applies only at the level of Path Consciousness. Perhaps I should have looked up the reference you gave, but I can't see from your quote how you arrive at that conclusion: ----------------------- Kel (quoting): > Three kinds of Right View or Right Understanding: kammassakata samma-ditthi--Right View or Understanding that in the case of beings only two things, wholesome and unwholesome actions performed by them, are their own properties that always accompany them wherever they may wander in many a becoming or world-cycle dasavatthuka samma-ditthi-- Right Understanding of the ten kinds of subjects catu-sacca samma- ditthi--Right Understanding of the four Realities or the Four Truths. > ---------------------- You explained: ----------- > Here one has to believe in the cause-effect relation of one's actions. Without this, there's no compelling reasons for right thought, speech or action. Note it's listed in different order as when you separate it into sila, samadhi and panna. So first two kinds of samma-ditthi are precursor for further work as you say. However to say knowledge of anatta as necessary precursor to the right practice would be too restrictive. > ---------- That wasn't quite the point I was trying to make, so I won't argue except to say that knowledge of anatta helps in the development of all kinds of kusala - dana, sila and bhavana. And it [uniquely] enables bhavana to extend beyond samatha to vipassana. My point was that right understanding is the forerunner. Some people think the other path factors can be forerunners. And so they try to practice right effort, for example, without it's being triggered by right understanding. This leads to a kind of effort that is conditioned by something other than panna. It is the way according to some teachings, but it is not the way according to the Dhamma. I think (not sure) that you are trying to develop right concentration as a forerunner to right understanding. This was never the way - even before the Buddha's sasana. The early jhana practitioners did not start with calm concentration, they started with understanding. Samatha is developed in those who understand the difference between kusala and akusala. This understanding allows them to experience kusala consciousness with panna, which includes the mental factors of concentration, equanimity and tranquillity. Unfortunately for them, jhana was the highest known attainment. But it only *suppressed* the hindrances: unlike vipassana, it did not eradicate them. Some jhana practitioners had so much [suppressed] defilement that they were unable to understand the Dhamma even when they heard it directly from the Buddha. I think it is said that some of them are now languishing in the lower realms. ---------- KH: > > tragically, it is the part that most Buddhists don't get. It > distinguishes the Dhamma from all other teachings: In this Dhamma > there is no self who practises, there are only disinterested, > momentary conditioned phenomena. Learning about nama and rupa > without worrying about 'my' nama and 'my' rupa is the way to go. Kel: > *shrug* if someone truly gets it, they would be an ariya already. So regardless of being a Buddhist or not, most people are puthujjanas and definitely don't get it yet. It maybe a good way for your practice but not necessarily for everyone. > ----------------- I think there is only one right way, and so my way has to be either right or wrong. But I am not saying we have to "truly get it:" penetration of the Dhamma (pativedha) doesn't happen until the final stages of vipassana. But it is only when we do get it (to some extent) that the other insight factors are conditioned to co-arise. ------------------- KH: > > Are you referring to a technique that is not > found in the Tipitaka? Kel: > Sitter's practice, Vis II 73. ----------------- So you are referring to jhana. I know that, in the Buddha's day and in the centuries after it, some disciples developed jhana as well as vipassana. But in my opinion, no such individuals exist in the human realm today. Regards, Ken H 40998 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:04pm Subject: Re: What the mind does dear Kenh, Htoo and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > My father's funeral will be held tomorrow. Please don't worry about > > condolences: he enjoyed remarkably good health and contentment for > > 92 years, and so, more than anything else, his funeral will be a > > celebration. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Dear KenH, > > This may or may not be condolences. But fathers are always fathers. > > Once there was a family who one day faced with passing away of a > member of their family. Azita: I have snipped most of Htoo's post, simply to shorten the message, however I thought it a really good story, Htoo and I hope you won't mind that I cut. I have a kind of death story. My happy young neice gave me "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" and "Advice on Dying", as Xmas presents. Some of the family members shook their heads and thought we were a bit weird when I showed genuine delight at her gift! Altho I don't agree with a lot of what I'm reading, it has been a condition for me to really think about death. As pointed out in the first book, most people don't want to think about the event most certain to occur in their lives. It is mostly thought of as a very grim event. I'm not trying to trivialise the enormous death toll that has recently occured due to the tsunami, in these times the totality of the devastation in peoples lives is too great. Yet we know that these things happen and that we can die at any moment. i want to be able to accept death with open arms - given the right conditions :-/ I think that my attitude to death has changed a great deal since my study of Buddhas teachings began. May our death moments be kusala. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita 40999 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:12pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Ken, > "Right > Understanding comes first," (as in the Great Forty Sutta) applies > only at the level of Path Consciousness. Perhaps I should have > looked up the reference you gave, but I can't see from your quote > how you arrive at that conclusion: Kel: Well if it's highest samma ditthi then yes it only applies to magga-nana. Most people divide it into: sila, samadhi and panna. It only requires understanding of kammic relations to practice sila. Then temporary suppression of defilements is samadhi. ONLY then will you have enough strength to achieve lasting panna. This does not equal samatha bhavana and other factors can lead. If you read the exposition of the indriyas, any of the 5 can lead. One can accumulate enough samadhi by doing "pure" vipassana but still need the same quality of first jhana (as ppl said in many threads). Doesn't matter how you walk there, you still gotta get there. There are some traditions that practice jhanas before they work toward anagami-magga-nana. The clamness required of the lower two isn't as high. It's a big leap from sakaagami to anagami. > all kinds of kusala - dana, sila and bhavana. And it [uniquely] > enables bhavana to extend beyond samatha to vipassana. Kel: No, it is not unique. Anicca, dukkha and anatta are all equally good. Unless you treat them to be the same which they aren't. The level of understanding of dukkha is what separates the 4 magga-nanas. > My point was that right understanding is the forerunner. Some people > think the other path factors can be forerunners. And so they try to > practice right effort, for example, without it's being triggered by > right understanding. Kel: Again they CAN be forerunners as a way to truly experience and see anatta clearly. Panna isn't not the only vehicle. The whole point of vipassana is to investigate into the true nature precisely because we lack the right understanding of it at experiential level. > This leads to a kind of effort that is > conditioned by something other than panna. It is the way according > to some teachings, but it is not the way according to the Dhamma. Kel: Lofty statement and I don't see where anyone can really critize other teachings without having practiced them to the fullest. They all converge at some point and people do things differently. > I think (not sure) that you are trying to develop right > concentration as a forerunner to right understanding. This was never > the way - even before the Buddha's sasana. The early jhana > practitioners did not start with calm concentration, they started > with understanding. Samatha is developed in those who understand the > difference between kusala and akusala. Kel: Jhanic concentration doesn't make it samma samadhi, it's when all the factors are balanced and achieve magga-nana then it's called samma samadhi. That's partly why I gave you the three classifications of samma ditthi also. Just depends on what you're referring to. If you don't understand the difference between kusala and aksuala, how will you practice even sila? > Unfortunately for them, jhana was the highest known attainment. But > it only *suppressed* the hindrances: unlike vipassana, it did not > eradicate them. Some jhana practitioners had so much [suppressed] > defilement that they were unable to understand the Dhamma even when > they heard it directly from the Buddha. I think it is said that some > of them are now languishing in the lower realms. Kel: They didn't understand not because of jhana but the ego they built from that attainment. They thought they were liberated and didn't want to hear Buddha's teachings. There's no arguing Buddha touted 4th jhana mind as the BEST mind to meditate with. You can go awry at any stage, even with highest probability of success. Even Ashin Ananda, a sotapanna, was practicing too earnestly while trying to become an arahat. He even has guided numerous monks to arahathood as their teacher. The closer we get, the more cautious we have to be because the defilements can still win out. > Kel: *shrug* if someone truly gets it, they would be an ariya > already. So regardless of being a Buddhist or not, most people are > puthujjanas and definitely don't get it yet. It maybe a good way > for your practice but not necessarily for everyone. > ----------------- > > I think there is only one right way, and so my way has to be either > right or wrong. But I am not saying we have to "truly get it:" > penetration of the Dhamma (pativedha) doesn't happen until the final > stages of vipassana. But it is only when we do get it (to some > extent) that the other insight factors are conditioned to co- arise. Kel: So cinta, citta and bhavana. So enough of bhavana to condition other factors? There's a model where you repeatedly experience the vipassana-nanas before they become full strength. During one's practice, you can slide back down to lower nanas due to various reasons. Then with some maturity you start staying around sankaruppekha. After repeately searching from this nana, you can find magga-nana. So everyone's practice can be quite different in the way one goes through nanas. Yes there's only ONE set of nanas but everyone's experience varies. Even the SAME vithis are usually separated into normal vs intelligent modes. > Kel: > Sitter's practice, Vis II 73. > ----------------- > > So you are referring to jhana Kel: Sitter's practice has nothing to do with jhana. It doesn't mean to just sit continously, it actually refers to not laying down on your back. Someone can do vipassana with adhitthana to not change postures till they become enlightened. Ledi Sayadaw says this is the only way to check if you have sufficient paramis or not. > But in my opinion, no such individuals exist in the human > realm today. Kel: *shrug* first jhana is really not that hard, just like sotapatti isn't that far-fetched. Until you've tried it like the elders of centuries past how do you know what is possible and what is not? Even then how can it be generalized to everyone else? I believe thai monks of forest tradition might disagree with you here, especially about jhana. There's also no question the preferred method Buddha taught and monks practiced primarily for ages. So to make a sweeping statement that implies dry-insight method is the only way possible for humans of this day and age is a disservice to Buddha's teaching. Don't get me wrong, I myself practice vipassana and wouldn't dream of samatha. But for people who wants to achieve total liberation this very life and confident about their paramis should follow samatha. It is a faster way if one can do it. - kel