41000 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:41pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 98- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (j) Dear Sarah, and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] > ***** > While we study the different aspects of cetanå we can see that > cetanå is different as it arises with different cittas. Cetanå which > accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta "wills" kusala or akusala > and it is capable of producing vipåka; it is, except in the case of > cetanå which accompanies magga-citta, abhisaòkhåra or kamma formation. > > The cetanås which accompany rúpåvacara citta and > arúpåvacara citta can produce rebirth in higher planes of existence, > in rúpa-brahma planes and arúpa-brahma planes, they are a link > in the Dependant Origination. .....snip.... Azita: Like a little jolt, the above reminded me that cetana is arising and falling NOW as I write this. Most of the time I don't know if its kusala, akusala or even vipaka. LIstening to the India discussions, and this is my interpretation as I don't have the exact words before me, someone stated that while reading the Abhidhamma, and trying to work out what is being read, he remembers that it is 'this present moment' that he is reading about. These are the reminders that I find most uplifting, and then there is clinging for more uplifting moments - subtle lobha, and not not so subtle lobha. I'm attached to the feelings that go along with lobha :-) on and on it goes. these are the musings of a tropical midsummer,no aircon coastal dweller...... may our death moments be kusala Azita 41001 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:16pm Subject: Books in Hotels - Thailand Hello all, I think this is marvellous news! :-) Tried to forward the whole post, but it doesn't seem to have appeared. Apologies for the duplication, if it turns up later. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In DSList@yahoogroups.com, "Amara" wrote: >The Committee on Religion, Art and Culture of the House of >Representatives of Thailand, together with the Vongvanij >Foundation, has published Nina Van Gorkom's book, 'The Buddha's >Path', to be placed in hotels alongside the Bible. 41002 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Hello Htoo, KenH, Azita, all, I wonder if this story is the one you are searching for Htoo - it is part of the Uraga (Snake) Jataka: "The Bodhisattva was a farmer in a former life as mentioned in the Uraga Jataka. Rustic though he was, he practiced mindfulness on death to perfection. He had trained himself to think every now and then "Death can at any moment come to us." This is something on which the majority of us refuse to do any thinking at all. Not only did he make it a habit to think so, but he even saw to it that all members of his household did the same. One day while he was working with his son in the field, the latter was stung by a snake and died on the spot. The father was not one bit perturbed. He just carried the body to the foot of a tree, covered it with a cloak, neither weeping nor lamenting, and resumed his plowing unconcerned. Later he sent word home, through a passer-by, to send up one parcel of food instead of two for the mid-day meal and to come with perfumes and flowers. When the message was received, his wife knew what it meant but she too did not give way to expressions of grief; neither did her daughter nor her daughter-in-law nor the maid-servant. As requested they all went with perfumes and flowers to the field, and a most simple cremation took place, with no one weeping. Sakka the chief of gods came down to earth and proceeding to the place where a body was burning upon a pile of firewood, inquired from those standing around whether they were roasting the flesh of some animal. When they replied, "It is no enemy but our own son." "Then he could not have been a son dear to you," said Sakka. "He was a very dear son," replied the father. "Then," asked Sakka, "why do you not weep?" The father in reply uttered this stanza: "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past. Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Similar questions were asked from the dead son's mother who replied thus: "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go. Even as he came he went, what cause is here for woe? No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "Sisters surely are loving to their brothers. Why do you not weep?" asked Sakka of the dead man's sister. She replied: "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? My kith and kin alas would more unhappy be. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Sakka then asked the dead man's wife why she did not weep. She replied thus: "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Lastly Sakka asked the maid-servant why she did not weep, especially as she had stated that the master was never cruel to her but was most considerate and kind and treated her like a foster child. This was her reply: "A broken pot of earth, ah, who can piece again? So too, to mourn the dead is nought but labor vain. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_reflections_on_death.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Ken H, > > I am sorry. Yes. I was confused. Actually I should have noticed the > address kenhowardau. > > The man who died in the story was the son. The father and the son > used to go ploughing in the early morning. The son died of snake > bite. The father knew his son was bitten by a snake. Still he was not > much tremble. > > Normally at the break the father met his wife or his daughter-in- law > and asked for 2-meals. This time the father asked for one-meal. It > was the wife. But she was not reported that her son was dead. But > from the context she knew her son died. The wife of young man also > came to know when her mother-in-law asked her to prepare one-meal > [instead of 2-meals]. > > Christine may know the story. Christine please! > > In the whole story the main theme is 'naka.mpati' 'not trembling'. > Actually they were not arahats. They were not anagams. They must have > some suffering inside of their mind. But not manifested. Because they > stayed with Dhamma. > > This is one of 38 blessings. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 41003 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: What the mind does Friend Ken H., Ken H.: Some jhana practitioners had so much [suppressed] defilement that they were unable to understand the Dhamma even when they heard it directly from the Buddha. I think it is said that some of them are now languishing in the lower realms. James: I question if this is true. Could you quote from the texts where it states this? I believe that the Buddha chose as his first disciples those who had practiced mental cultivation because they were the ones with "little dust in their eyes". Furthermore, I don't believe that many contemporaries of the Buddha really practiced the four jhanas, they just practiced the immaterial attainments. There are differences between the jhanas and the immaterial attainments: Jhanas are accompanied by pleasure (except the fourth jhana which is accompanied by equanimity) while the immaterial attainments are not accompanied by mental feelings; jhanas take the mind itself as the ultimate object while the immaterial attainments take spheres of immaterial existence as the ultimate object; and the Buddha had practiced the immaterial attainments with former teachers prior to enlightenment, and rejected the results as not conducive to liberation, but he had not previously practiced the jhanas except when he was a child and had spontaneously entered the first jhana. Therefore, are you speaking of the four jhanas or the immaterial attainments? And, do you have textual support? Ken H.: I know that, in the Buddha's day and in the centuries after it, some disciples developed jhana as well as vipassana. But in my opinion, no such individuals exist in the human realm today. James: How could you have a basis for this opinion? Do you know the minds and behaviors of every single person on the planet? ;-) Metta, James 41004 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Htoo, KenH, Azita, all, > > I wonder if this story is the one you are searching for Htoo - it > is part of the Uraga (Snake) Jataka: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, Exactly it is. Thanks for your linkage. When I told to Ken H I just left that the old man unnamed. Yes. He was sakka or king of deva realms. In your linkage there are verses of poem. In Myanmar Buddhist monks preach these verse in Pali while other parts of the story are talked in Myanmar words. Because of this tradition most Buddhists in Myanmar who frequent to Dhamma preachings acquire many Pali words through this kind of preaching. I forgot 'Uraga'. Sappo is also a snake. Does 'Uraga' mean 'snake'? With respect, Htoo Naing 41005 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:27am Subject: Re: What the mind does -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear KenH, > > This may or may not be condolences. But fathers are always fathers. > > Once there was a family who one day faced with passing away of a > > member of their family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Azita, That is fine that you snipped away. Contemplation of death is one of 4 guardian meditations. I will discuss it but see below for my response. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Azita wrote: Azita: I have snipped most of Htoo's post, simply to shorten the message, however I thought it a really good story, Htoo and I hope you won't mind that I cut. [[It is OK-Htoo]] I have a kind of death story. My happy young neice gave me "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" and "Advice on Dying", as Xmas presents. [[interesting-Htoo]] Some of the family members shook their heads and thought we were a bit weird when I showed genuine delight at her gift! Altho I don't agree with a lot of what I'm reading, it has been a condition for me to really think about death. As pointed out in the first book, most people don't want to think about the event most certain to occur in their lives. [[because of craving to live more- Htoo]] It is mostly thought of as a very grim event. I'm not trying to trivialise the enormous death toll that has recently occured due to the tsunami, in these times the totality of the devastation in peoples lives is too great. Yet we know that these things happen and that we can die at any moment. i want to be able to accept death with open arms - given the right conditions :-/ I think that my attitude to death has changed a great deal since my study of Buddhas teachings began. May our death moments be kusala. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Azita, I have been always writing as 'We were born and now are living. As we have been born what is sure is we are dying at some pont'. But people just accept it as a general concept. Let alone death they cannot even bear a single disturbing message or a single event of pain. At the time they perceive it they forget 'death'. There are 4 guardian meditation. 1. Recollection of Buddha's attributes 2. Recollection of Death 3. Compassionate Living 4. Recollection of Breath Some designate metta-brahmavihara as Metta-sati. At least recollection of death calm down trembling as Christine's link mentions. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41006 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Hello Htoo, all, Yes, both sappa and uraga mean serpent (or snake.) "serpent : (m.) sappa; ahi; uraga; bhujaga; bhogî; âsivisa; alagadda" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/ How fortunate to regularly hear the Dhamma taught by Bhikkhus well- versed in the Teachings. You have a very good memory, Htoo - I've noticed before that you often recall Dhamma teachings you have heard over the years - I'm sure many of us nowadays don't hear and memorise suttas as much as we should. I think we depend too much on the written word, and rely on computers and search engines to be our memory. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Htoo, KenH, Azita, all, > > > > I wonder if this story is the one you are searching for Htoo - it > > is part of the Uraga (Snake) Jataka: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Christine, > > Exactly it is. Thanks for your linkage. When I told to Ken H I just > left that the old man unnamed. Yes. He was sakka or king of deva > realms. > > In your linkage there are verses of poem. In Myanmar Buddhist monks > preach these verse in Pali while other parts of the story are talked > in Myanmar words. > > Because of this tradition most Buddhists in Myanmar who frequent to > Dhamma preachings acquire many Pali words through this kind of > preaching. > > I forgot 'Uraga'. Sappo is also a snake. Does 'Uraga' mean 'snake'? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 41007 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: Hello Htoo, all, Yes, both sappa and uraga mean serpent (or snake.) "serpent : (m.) sappa; ahi; uraga; bhujaga; bhogî; âsivisa; alagadda" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/ How fortunate to regularly hear the Dhamma taught by Bhikkhus well- versed in the Teachings. You have a very good memory, Htoo - I've noticed before that you often recall Dhamma teachings you have heard over the years - I'm sure many of us nowadays don't hear and memorise suttas as much as we should. I think we depend too much on the written word, and rely on computers and search engines to be our memory. metta and peace, Christine >---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, As you would know 'the teachings of The Buddha and arahats' were brought along simply by oral citation for the first three Buddhists Councils. Even though written scripts appear oral citations are still performed. In Myanmar there are Tipitaka examinations. Some bhikkhus passed the examination only with one pitaka or one basket of teachings. That is they know each and every words in that basket. Some passed two pitaka and they are called dvi-pitakadhara. Dhara means 'bearer'. When all three pitakas are digested and they pass the whole examination then they are designated as 'tipitakadhara' or 'bearer of three baskets of teachings'. Venerable Vicitta-saarabhivamsa was tipitakadhara. He acted as the answerer at 6th Buddhists Council in Yangon, Myanmar in the mid 20th centuary. When he was just a novice and studying he went to a town in the mid- land of Burma (Myanmar). At a book shop he took up a book of about 200 pages. As the shop-keeper was a Buddhist who was generous and had great saddha he offered that book free to the novice. Sayadaw-to-be happily bring along that book and he was going back to his monastry. He read the book along way to a river called 'Irreweddy' or 'Eyavati' or 'Ayeyarwati'. Soon after he reached the river bank he threw away the book into the river. The kappiya (lay guardian) was shocked and asked what he did with that book. The novice answered 'I remember everything in that book. So I do not need this book again'. He did that because he was young. That book may benefit other if he kept it. But the guandian was delighted and reported this matter to his teacher. The teacher knew the potentials of this young novice and he was trained under Pali experts one after another. And finally he digested all tipitaka. Even though there are same tipitakadhara at that time this Sayadaw Venerable Vicittasaarabhivamsa is amazing unlike other tipitakadhara. He remember page by page, word by word. When I started to know that there were Tipitakadharas I was just ignorant and not wonder anything. But one day I visited a small village and there I met an old man. He was illiterate. But amazingly he was like a mental book. I may be wrong in some words when I write down my old memories. But that man reproduced the exact copy of what he heard from Sayadaws. I did not say he was tipitakadhara. I am talking the tradition of oral citation. Books, texts, CDs are good. Still there are people who practise such amazing memories. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41008 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread (234) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 3 samapattis or 3 states of reaching of 1.jhana- samapatti or 'being in jhana' or 'staying in jhana' or 'developing jhana', 2.phala-samapatti or 'staying in fruition-consciousness', and 3.nirodha-samapatti or 'reaching the state of cessation', the first 2 have been discussed. After jhana-samapatti and phala-samapatti, there left nirodha- samapatti. Nirodha means 'cessation'. Samapatti is made up of 'sam' and 'aapatti'. Sam means 'very well' 'rightly' 'in the right manner or right order'. Aapatti means 'reaching' 'being in'. Nirodha- samapatti means reaching a state of cessation of nama and rupa. As there is no citta, there is no cetasika. As there is no nama dhamma there is no cittaja rupa or rupa derived from nama dhamma. So in that state what left is kammaja rupa, aharaja rupa and utuja rupa. Kamaja rupa means 'rupa derived from kamma' and aharaja is from nutriment and utuja is from temperature. For nirodha-samapatti the satta concerned has to be an arahat or an anagam (non-returner) and they have to be proficient in all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas. When they consider to go into the state of nirodha-samapatti that consideration is arising of kamavacara mahakusala javana cittas or kamavacara mahakiriya javana cittas thinking to go into nirodha samapatti. This is followed by bhavanaga cittas and then jhana vithi vara arise one after another. That is They enter the 1st rupa jhana, exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 2nd rupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 3rd rupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on ti. Then enter the 4th rupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 1st arupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 2nd arupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 3rd arupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. After that they consider several different things just before going into the 4th arupa jhana, called n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana. These considerations are 1. when The Buddha wants me may I be able to arise from samapatti. 2. when The Sangha want me may I be able to arise from samapatti. 3. may the avasa or monastry or building or tree in connection with me be free from enemies like fire, animal attack, disasters etc etc. 4. may civara or robes be free from destruction by enemies 5. may parikkhara other essentials for bhikkhu be free from destruction by enemies. After these consideration they enter the 4th arupa jhana or nevasanna- nasannayatana arupa jhana. There arise only 2 moments of 4th arupa jhana citta and after that because of this hugh great powerful appana bhavana there does not arise anything and this happen for the whole 7 days. During that time what happen is just proliferation of kammaja rupa, existing aharaja rupa which will completely cease to arise after 7 days and utuja rupas. They do proliferate. Because of adhitthana the body cannot die at any stage while in nirodha-samapatti. Once a group of naughty girls went to a forest and they made a fire to bushes. Inside was an arahat staying in nirodha-samapatti. The fire did not hurt him at all. But naughty girls gained bad kamma and this kamma gave the result. It was the queen Samavati and her followes who were all died from man-made fire ordered by the king because of divisive speech of hated person of samavati. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41009 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi James, ------------ Ken H: > > Some jhana practitioners had so much [suppressed] defilement that they were unable to understand the Dhamma even when they heard it directly from the Buddha. I think it is said that some of them are now languishing in the lower realms.> > James: > I question if this is true. Could you quote from the texts where it states this? > ---------------------- No I can't, but I think Devadatta and his followers were classic examples. -------------------------- J:> Therefore, are you speaking of the four jhanas or the immaterial attainments? And, do you have textual support? --------------------------- Apart from the explanation you have just given, I am unfamiliar with the distinction between jhanas and immaterial attainments. ----------------- Ken H.: > > I know that, in the Buddha's day and in the centuries after it, some disciples developed jhana as well as vipassana. But in my opinion, no such individuals exist in the human realm today. > > James: How could you have a basis for this opinion? Do you know the minds and behaviors of every single person on the planet? ;-) --------- It is just the opinion I have reached after reading many explanations on DSG (most details of which I have forgotten). Robert K, for one, often posts the details of how the sasana was predicted by the Buddha to decline; I have based my opinions that kind of information. Regards, Ken H 41010 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:18am Subject: Re: What the mind does Friend Ken H., Ken: No I can't, but I think Devadatta and his followers were classic examples. James: Devadatta didn't turn against the Buddha because jhana practice had `supressed' his defilements. Devadatta turned against the Buddha because jhana practice gave him tremendous psychic powers and he grew conceited because of those powers. His followers, fellow monks, followed him because of those powers; they were impressed (because the Buddha refrained from demonstrating such powers). However, the followers of Devadatta were quickly brought back to the sangha after a talk by Sariputta, while Devadatta was asleep. Therefore, I don't believe that this is a sufficient example that jhana practice suppresses the defilements to the extent that one can no longer understand the dhamma. Remember, jhana practice is a part of the Noble Eightfold Path taught by the Buddha; it is Right Concentration. Ken: It is just the opinion I have reached after reading many explanations on DSG (most details of which I have forgotten). Robert K, for one, often posts the details of how the sasana was predicted by the Buddha to decline; I have based my opinions that kind of information. James: Okay, fair enough. There is a decline in the Buddha Sasana, of that I have no doubt. However, what exactly that means to the individual practitioner is up to speculation. Personally, I believe that it means that the potential is still there, but the opportunity is not as prevalent. In other words, people of today could become arahants, but the support system needed, the sangha, is in a terrible state of disrepair. After all, the Buddha said that the WHOLE of the holy life is noble friends-if the only truly noble friends that one can find are spread out all over the globe, and they have to meet over the Internet, then the holy life is going to suffer. Personally, about two years ago I went to Thailand to become a monk and was sorely disappointed by the standard of behavior I found in the sangha. I left the temple after only three days. So, if you want to say that the means are decreasing, I would agree; however, if you want to say that the ability is decreasing, I would not agree. Metta, James 41011 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:02am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi, Kel (and all interested members) - > Kel: Well if it's highest samma ditthi then yes it only applies > to magga-nana. Most people divide it into: sila, samadhi and > panna. It only requires understanding of kammic relations to > practice sila. Then temporary suppression of defilements is > samadhi. ONLY then will you have enough strength > to achieve lasting panna. In message # 40999 (Re: What the mind does) you touched upon several advanced things (samatha, vipassana, jhana, nana, sotapatti, ...). A thought arose while I was reading your discussion with Ken H. : Kelvin's knowledge is very good and he is also able to concisely describe difficult subjects without difficulty. You said to Ken H. that "sotapatti isn't that farfetched". Sotapatti is the focus of AN X.92 [Vera Sutta]: "When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html Here the "five forms of fear & animosity are stilled" by the five precepts. The four sotapatti factors are defined as the unwavering faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, plus the virtues that are "appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." And, the term "rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method" is a right understanding of the Dependent Origination (paticcasamuppada). Well, now I have few questions that have been on my mind for quite a while; being unable to answer them to my own satisfaction, I hope you probably can kindly answer them for me. (I) Do the 6 conditions stated in this Vera Sutta guarantee the sotapatti- magga-nana? If they do, then does it mean that with these conditions it is not necessary for the "disciple of the noble ones" to practice samatha to attain jhanas, or vipassana to attain high levels of nana like the Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations (sankharupekkha- nana)? (II) You told Ken H. , "There's no arguing Buddha touted 4th jhana mind as the BEST mind to meditate with". Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 1st jhana? Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 4th jhana? Thank you for your help. Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > 41012 From: mnease Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books in Hotels - Thailand Hi Chris, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christine Forsyth" To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 10:16 PM Subject: [dsg] Books in Hotels - Thailand > >The Committee on Religion, Art and Culture of the House of > >Representatives of Thailand, together with the Vongvanij > >Foundation, has published Nina Van Gorkom's book, 'The Buddha's > >Path', to be placed in hotels alongside the Bible. Wonderful news indeed--saadhu and anumodanaa, Nina. mike 41013 From: Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Htoo, Would it be correct to say that a non-aryan can attain to the 4th arupa jhana? When an arahant or anagami attains to the 4th arupa jhana that jhana is called nirodha samapatti? Once entered, is this samapatti all bhavanga or all jhana citta? Is the difference between these two kinds of arupa jhana just the magical protections? Larry 41014 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Tep, > Here the "five forms of fear & animosity are stilled" by the five precepts. > The four sotapatti factors are defined as the unwavering faith in the > Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, plus the virtues that > are "appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, > unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, > leading to concentration." Basically no longer capable of acts that will lead one to lower realms. Since the doubt (cetasika) has been destroyed, they'll never lose faith either. In fact, they can be reborn into arupa lokas and become arahat there. For normal beings, arupa is considered one of the bad realms because you cannot become a sotapanna there. Once you're a sotapanna it doesn't matter anymore. > And, the term "rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the > noble method" is a right understanding of the Dependent > Origination (paticcasamuppada). I just take this to mean understanding the cause and effect relation and successfully changing the reaction pattern of the mind. I don't take it literally as seeing each link in the chain of D.O. which is kinda hard since they're interwined in more than one way. > (I) Do the 6 conditions stated in this Vera Sutta guarantee the sotapatti- > magga-nana? If they do, then does it mean that with these conditions it > is not necessary for the "disciple of the noble ones" to practice > samatha to attain jhanas, or vipassana to attain high levels of nana like > the Knowledge of Equanimity about Formationes (sankharupekkha- > nana)? Every sotapanna has perfect sila but not everyone with seemingly perfect sila is a sotapanna. So it's only an implication one way and not a "if and only if". Sila in this context covers all three actions: bodily, verbally and mentally. First two are relatively easy, but someone can easily be really angry behind a fake smile. There are four types of people and most likely we're 3rd type. First are who attain enlightenment by just hearing the Dhamma. Second can attain by having the Dhamma expanded and explained more throughly. Third can achieve by culivating through bhavana. Fourth, highest achievable stage is sankharupekkha for various reasons. One is they have more lofy goals that requires enlightenment in future lives. Another is they're born with two- root conditions (without amoha) only, so 4 out of 8 mahakusala citta vipakas. So they cannot get enlightenment this life but can accumulate paramis for it in the very next life. If one is 1st or 2nd type then there's no need for systematic cultivation. Basically if someone's willpower is strong enough to have perfect sila including mental actions, they are able to destroy the defilements without much effort. Clearly they're just more talented than normal humans`when it comes to mental prowess. The 3rd types use bhavana to develop the power of the mind. Once it's powerful enough, it can destroy the defilements once and for all. One shouldn't forget all ten paramis have to be full and bhavana is merely the means because we're too weak. > Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 1st jhana? > Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 4th jhana? Quick answer: all and none. You can look at how the expansion of 89 type of consciousness to get 121. First, subtract 8 lokattura (4 magga/4 phala) from 89 to get 81. Then multiply 8 lokattura with 5 jhana types to get 40. Add the 40 to 81 and end up with 121. So 4 magga-nanas can only be achieved with 1 out of 5 jhanas accompanying it. However, it doesn't have to be absorption and just quality of the 1st jhana is enough. It's also the reason you can include arupa into the 5th jhana because the type is the same, it's only the object that is different. But the question arises as to which jhana is easier as basis for which magga? Of course if you can achieve 4th jhana first, it is for the best. The danger is one can waste a lifetime trying to achieve that without ever getting to vipassana and that would be a tragedy. For a normal human, the mind is so cluttered that the type of calmness required may not be achievable right away. For a sakagami, there's a lot less clutter and so it's easier to achieve higher jhanas. So practicing vipassana first is advisable to lessen the clutter because it doesn't take much training. We know when we are angry, annoyed or rather easy to discern akusala cittas. Using these as devices, we can cleanse our mind using vipassana. This is pretty much how satipatthana method work. You develop samadhi and panna in locked step using sati, the mind naturally gets cleaner and so able to focus more leading to further calmness and cleansing. Even noticing our attachments to DSG and our desires/reactions to people is a huge step up. It's a way to come out of ignorance and give ourselves a chance to change. That's why a successful practice should result in a changed behavior not because we're doing so well but because our minds were so bad before. - kel 41015 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Larry, > Would it be correct to say that a non-aryan can attain to the 4th arupa > jhana? When an arahant or anagami attains to the 4th arupa jhana that > jhana is called nirodha samapatti? Kel: I don't think so. nirodha-samapatti is above 4th arupa jhana and uses 4th arupa jhana as basis for attainment. Because the mind (citta) and mind-related matter complete stops while absorbed in niroda-samapatti. Anagami/arahats can be absorbed in 4th arupa jhana like everyone else with consecutive jhana cittas. The two vithis have the same beginning but different once it reaches absorption. >Once entered, is this samapatti all bhavanga or all jhana citta? Kel: as i said above, no citta at all. Just kamma, utu and ahara based matter arises during nirodha. The person for all intent and purposes appear dead. - kel 41016 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Tep Questions to Kel: 1.Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 1st jhana? 2.Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 4th jhana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel's Answers. Quick answer: all and none. You can look at how the expansion of 89 type of consciousness to get 121. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and Kel, Very good discussion and superb answer. Yes, the answer to each question is all of 4 stages. And again the answer to each question is none of 4 stages. As long as there is no hindrance javana cittas are the same in terms of concentration or tranquility. That is 'not achieving any jhanas but just with upacara samadhi' and n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana are the same. The only difference is number of jhana factors and state of absorption. There are 8 lokuttara cittas. And there are 40 lokuttara cittas. All lokuttara cittas take nibbana as their object and no other objects are taken as object. Be careful that lineage is not the same between jhana cittas and lokuttara cittas. 40 lokuttara cittas are lokuttara cittas. They are not rupavacara cittas nor are they arupavacara cittas. They are genuine lokuttara cittas. 8 lokuttara cittas are also lokuttara cittas. They are not jhana cittas. They are not rupavacara cittas and nor are they arupavacara cittas. However all lokuttara cittas 8 lokuttara cittas or 40 lokuttara cittas are absorptive consciousness. They all are absorbed into nibbana. Or nibbana absorbs them. Or they absorb nibbana. What matter in the whole path leading to nibbana including pre-NEP path is panna or wisdom. Without panna or wisdom any of magga nana will not be achieved. That is why bare attention does not work (I may respond this at dhammasukha site later). With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41017 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Dear Larry, Thanks for your questions. Kel has already answered everything. I will also answer your questions. But questions are a bit long and could you please use simple structure of questions next time? With respect, Htoo Naing PS: Please see below for discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, 1.Would it be correct to say that a non-aryan can attain to the 4th arupa jhana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is correct. Non-ariyans can attain 4th arupa jhana. Example is the 2nd teacher of Bodhisatta. If this 4th arupa jhana works as marana- asanna-javana citta then satta or being concerned will be reborn with 4th arupajhana vipaka citta called n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupavipaka citta and they will reborn in that arupa realm. If this happen they will not attain any magga citta there in arupa bhumi. Because sotapatti magga citta can never arise in that realm and when puthujanas are reborn in that realm there is no way to arise panna or magga nana. But they will live there for 80000 kappas. At the end of 8000 kappas they will be reborn in one of 7 kama bhumis that is 6 deva realms and 1 human realm with tihetuka patisandhi citta and if they do not find educator like The Buddha or arahats they are still entitled to be reborn in 4 woeful planes. These are later possible life. While they are in arupa brahma bhumi as they are living for 80000 kappas they will miss many Buddhas. Arupa brahma bhumis are good for sotapatti phala puggala or higher beings. Because they can continue their practice there without any physical dukkha like human beings and devas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: 2.When an arahant or anagami attains to the 4th arupa jhana that jhana is called nirodha samapatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Definitely not. If they practise 4th arupa jhana then it will be 4th arupa jhana-samapatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: 3.Once entered, is this samapatti all bhavanga or all jhana citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually at that time it is hard to call it samapatti. But the whole matter is called nirodha-samapatti. That is 1. contemplation that he is going to enter nirodha-samapatti 2. 1st jhana 3. 2nd jhana 4. 3rd jhana 5. 4th jhana 6. 1st arupa jhana 7. 2nd arupa jhana 8. 3rd arupa jhana 9. contemplation and adhitthana 10.4th arupa jhana ( just 2 moments) 11.complete cessation of citta-sankhara, citta, cetasikas, cittaja rupas. 12.arising of arahatta phala javana citta The real thing is stage 11. It is nirodha-samapatti. That is reaching the state of total and complete cessation. But the word 'samapatti' is not suitable when there is nothing. So the answer is 1.No. Not all bhavanaga cittas 2.No. Not all jhana cittas. There is no citta. No cetasika. No cittaja rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: 4.Is the difference between these two kinds of arupa jhana just the magical protections? Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nirodha-samapatti is more than magical protection. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41018 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:11pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Kel, We are practising two radically different Dhammas. Mine is all about understanding the present moment, while yours is all about doing something to bring about enlightenment. -------------- Kel: > Most people divide it into: sila, samadhi and panna. It only requires understanding of kammic relations to practice sila. -------------- Is that strictly correct? Kusala consciousness requires the absence of wrong view and ignorance, but it does not require the presence of right view. --------------- Kel: > Then temporary suppression of defilements is samadhi. -------------- As far as I am aware, samadhi is a universal cetasika, so I am not familiar with your use of the term. ------------------ Kel: > ONLY then will you have enough strength to achieve lasting panna. ----------------- Again, I am not familiar with "lasting panna." As a cetasika, panna lasts less than one billionth of a second. I have a feeling you have explained 'lasting panna' in recent posts, but I have fallen behind with my reading. In an earlier post, to which I have not finished responding, you wrote: --------------------- > Yes there can be one or two kusala cittas amidst strong stream of akusala. That's not the practice leading to enlightenment however. It just merely reduces the strength and result of the akusala cittas. I'm sure you know the part in Abhidhamma where it talks about supporting, interference and destructive kammas of one rebirth- citta. This is precisely how one tries to destroy the akusala that has arisen, still 3 stages to go: prevent new akusala from arising, let kusala arise and keep the arisen kusala going. What I was referring to is to have kusala javanas even with continuous akusala vipaka cittas in consecutive vithis. > ---------------------- This (consecutive vithis of kusala cittas) must be the bit I haven't read properly in recent posts. But whatever it is, I doubt it will radically change my perspective. The Buddha's teaching is to understand a presently arisen paramattha dhamma. It can be something simple like visible object or it can be something complicated like a citta that has arisen as part of a consecutive stream of kusala vithis. In either case, the universe is just these present conditioned paramattha dhammas - there is no self who can control anything. ------------------ Kel: > This does not equal samatha bhavana and other factors can lead. If you read the exposition of the indriyas, any of the 5 can lead. ------------------- Then I should read it (wherever it is to be found), but I'm not sure when I can get around to it. ------------------------------- Kel: > One can accumulate enough samadhi by doing "pure" vipassana but still need the same quality of first jhana (as ppl said in many threads). Doesn't matter how you walk there, you still gotta get there. ------------------------------- Well, my understanding is that right understanding comes first - right concentration arises automatically with right understanding. This applies whether we are talking about samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana. And you don't "do" vipassana - vipassana is a citta that is conditioned to arise when the true Dhamma has been properly heard, explained and considered. ---------------- Kel: > There are some traditions that practice jhanas before they work toward anagami-magga-nana. The clamness required of the lower two isn't as high. It's a big leap from sakaagami to anagami. ------------- I am curious to know whether some traditions currently claim that ariyans are quite plentiful amongst their membership. Are you saying there are people in the world today who have attained the level of sakadagami and are working towards anagamiship? ---------------- Kel: No, it is not unique. Anicca, dukkha and anatta are all equally good. ---------------- I think direct realisation of anicca is [theoretically] attainable outside a Buddha's sasana. I'm not sure about dukkha but I know only a Buddha can teach anatta. --------------------------- Kel: > Unless you treat them to be the same which they aren't. The level of understanding of dukkha is what separates the 4 magga-nanas. --------------------------- Here, you might be using the term 'dukkha' to refer to 'all conditioned dhammas.' Otherwise, I don't know what you could mean by 'the level of understanding of dukkha is what separates the 4 magga-nanas.' -------------------- <. . .> Kel: Again they CAN be forerunners as a way to truly experience and see anatta clearly. Panna isn't not the only vehicle. --------------------- This brings us back to the beginning: I say right understanding comes first; you say it doesn't have to. --------------------- Kel: > The whole point of vipassana is to investigate into the true nature precisely because we lack the right understanding of it at experiential level. --------------------- This sounds like something I would say, but you seem to give it a different meaning. ----------- KH: > > This leads to a kind of effort that is > conditioned by something other than panna. It is the way according > to some teachings, but it is not the way according to the Dhamma.> > Kel: > Lofty statement and I don't see where anyone can really critize other teachings without having practiced them to the fullest. They all converge at some point and people do things differently. ----------- I wonder what you mean by that. Surely, you are not saying that all paths eventually lead to Nibbana! (?) For the purposes of Dhamma study, we should realise that other teachings can offer only eternalism or annihilationism (wrong views in any of their 62 forms). And we don't have to practise them to understand that. But, outside of Dhamma study, I agree we have no business criticising other teachings. Ken H 41019 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (235) Dear Dhamma Friends, [This is a bit advanced and many will leave it alone or delete it from their mail box. But any query, questions, comment, addition, further explanation are all welcome] There are no 'we'. There are no 'I'. There are no 'you'. There are just citta, cetasikas, and rupas and there is nibbana. Leaving nibbana, there will be citta, cetasikas and rupas. At a glance they are just patisandhi cittas doing linking function. That patisandhi citta has its associated cetasikas and okkantikkhana kamaja rupa. Okkanti means 'when patisandi citta arises'. Khana means 'moment'. Okkantikkhana means 'the moment when patisandhi citta arises'. Okkantikkhana rupa means 'rupas that arise at the exact time when the patisandhi citta arises'. This is nama and rupa at the time of rebirth or patisandhi. That patisandhi citta is vinnana. This vinnana has to arise because of kamma-sankhara done at the time of marana-asanna-javana cittas arising in the immediate past life. That kamma-sankharas had to be done because of avijja. At the exact time of patisandhi there is no salayatana or no 6 ayatana. That is no cakkhu-ppasada, no sota-ppasada, no ghana- ppasada, no jivha-ppasada. This is especially true for human beings and animals. But at patisandhi kala or time there has already been nama-rupa. When fully develop there are salayatana if conditions are right for givcen satta or being. At another glance 'citta, cetasika, rupa' may well be bhavanga citta. This bhavanga citta does have its associated cetasikas. If satta concerned is one of sattas in pancavokara bhumis or beings with 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates this bhavana citta has to home hadaya-vatthu which is a rupa. So there are still a citta, a rupa and cetasikas of that citta. There are no 'we' and no 'you' at all. At another glance, 'citta, cetasika, rupa' may be at cuti kala or at the time of death. Cuti means 'move from the present life' or 'stop living'. Cuti citta does have associated cetasikas and rupa. At another glance if 'citta, cetasika, rupa' are not at those stated above (patisandhi kala, bhavanga kala, cuti kala), then 'citta, cetasika, rupa' will be in a process mentioned below. 1. pancadvara vithi vara depending on cakkhu vatthu 2. pancadvara vithi vara depending on sota vatthu 3. pancadvara vithi vara depending on ghana vatthu 4. pancadvara vithi vara depending on jivha vatthu 5. pancadvara vithi vara depending on kaya vatthu 6. manodvara vithi vara taking kama object (kama javana vara) 7. manodvara vithi vara taking jhana object (jhana javana vara) 8. manodvara vithi vara taking vipassana object and nibbana (magga javana vara) 9. manodvara vithi vara taking jhana object with specific intention (abhinna javana vara) 10. manodvara vithi vara reaching jhanas (jhana-samapatti) 11. manodvara vithi vara reaching phala (phala-samapatti) 12. manodvara vithi vara reaching nibbana(nirodha-samapatti) There is a special vithi vara. It is marana-asanna-javana vithi vara. This will be discussed in the coming post. In the previous post nirodha-samappti has been explained. Here are vithi varas when nirodha-samapatti is being intended. 1. contemplation that nirodha-samapatti is going to take. BBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB (kama javana vara of mahakusala cittas) 2. enter 1st rupa jhana. BBBB..BBBPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ J here is Jhana and not simple Javana. That is it is Jhana Javana. Here Jhana is 1st rupa jhana.JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB. 3. exit from the 1st rupa jhana and contemplate on past jhana factors and cittas as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJBBB...BBBBBMJJJJJJJTT(here J are kamavacara mahakusala Javana cittas)BB [paccavakkhana vithi vara] 4. enter the 2nd rupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 5. exit from 2nd rupa jhana and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccavakkhana javana vithi vara] 6. enter the 3rd rupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 7. exit from the 3rd rupa jhana and contemplate on it as anicca,dukkha,anatta. JJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccakkhana javana vithi vara] 8. enter 4th rupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 9. exit from the 4th rupa jhana and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccavakkhana javana vithi vara] 10. enter 1st arupa jhana or enter akasananca-ayatana arupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 11. exit from akasananca-ayatana arupa jhana and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccavakkhana javana vithi vara] 12. enter vinnananca-ayatana arupa jhana or 2nd arupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 13. exit from it and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccakkhana javana vithi vara] 14.enter akincanna-ayatana arupa jhana or 3rd arupa jhana. BBB..BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 15. exit from it and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta 16. do adhitthana. BBBBB..BBMJJJJJJJTTBBBB ..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB..BBBBBBBB BBBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB...BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB..BBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBB [kamavacara mahakusala kama javana vithi vara] 17. enter 4th arupa jhana or nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupa jhana. BBBBBB..BBBMPUAGNN_____________ApBBBBBBB 18. nirodha-samapatti is reached [_______]. N here means 'nevasanna- nasanna-ayatana jhana javana citta and it arises twice and then nothing arise there after. [_________] <-- this is attainment of nirodha-samapatti and it is called sa-upadisesa nibbana. 19. __________ApBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB Ap here is Anagami phala javana citta or Arahatta phala javana citta. And after arising once there follow many bhavanga cittas. 20. contemplate on what has experienced. BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBBBBB [paccavakkhana javana vithi vara] May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41020 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:18pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi James, ----------------------- J: > Devadatta didn't turn against the Buddha because jhana practice had `supressed' his defilements. ------------------------ I'd like to make it clear that I haven't suggested that as the reason. Jhana is a good practice, not a bad practice. Suppressing the hindrances is not a bad thing to do, but it doesn't eradicate the hindrances and so it doesn't offer an escape from samsara. My understanding is that Devadatta performed tremendous kusala in perfecting the jhanas. But he also had a history of tremendous evil. His temporarily suppressed, accumulated evil tendencies prevented him from understanding the Dhamma. That might be an inaccurate understanding, but it's the one I was putting forward. ---------------------- J: > Devadatta turned against the Buddha because jhana practice gave him tremendous psychic powers and he grew conceited because of those powers. ---------------------- Why was that? Why didn't all jhana masters grow conceited? Wasn't it because they had varying levels of [temporarily suppressed] kilesa? -------------------------------- J: > His followers, fellow monks, followed him because of those powers; they were impressed (because the Buddha refrained from demonstrating such powers). However, the followers of Devadatta were quickly brought back to the sangha after a talk by Sariputta, while Devadatta was asleep. -------------------------------- Oh yes, I forgot that - thank you for reminding me. I still have the impression that many jhana practitioners were, like Devadatta, unable to practice vipassana, but I can't point to any references. --------------------------------------------- J: > Therefore, I don't believe that this is a sufficient example that jhana practice suppresses the defilements to the extent that one can no longer understand the dhamma. Remember, jhana practice is a part of the Noble Eightfold Path taught by the Buddha; it is Right Concentration. --------------------------------------------- Yes, jhana practice can be a part of Dhamma practice, but I haven't suggested otherwise. (I am not accusing you of intentionally misconstruing my words, but you obviously haven't read them carefully.) ----------- James: > Okay, fair enough. There is a decline in the Buddha Sasana, of that I have no doubt. However, what exactly that means to the individual practitioner is up to speculation. ----------- I think the texts explain what it means to the individual practitioner, and I am only interested in the texts. My own speculation is of no significance. Regards, Ken H 41021 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad Hi E(ric), Kel and Htoo - I like your brief answer a lot. Yes, it sure makes sense that the 4th step of the 1st tetrad results in calming the kaya-sankhara. Yes, piti is present in both the 1st tetrad and the early part of the 2nd tetrad, but the piti in the second tetrad (vedananupassana) does not connect with the breathing. And it is true that in the 3rd tetrad (cittanupassana ) the focus is on the mind, but how do you explain that the 'delight' here is not the same as 'citta sankhara' (which is supposed to calm down until disappearing by the 4th step of the 2nd tetrad)? Kel says that there are several levels of piti, including the piti-sambojjhanga, but it is not completely clear to me. Can you elaborate further on the things called 'delight' and 'piti' when they are mind-based, and when they are not ? Thank you for joining us. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > 2) Abhip-pamodayam cittam = extremely delighted or "satisfying the > mind". This is fine because satisfaction correlates to delight. But > it is not > clear to me why piti still has not been calmed down after the 2nd > tetrad. > > Coming from the 1st to the 2nd tetrad, the > piti there is associated with a calm body. > That is, it is dependent on calming the > breath in the 4th step. The delight here > is mind centered. That is, the delight is > no longer dependent on the breath but upon > mind itself. The frame of reference has > shifted from body and vedana to mind. > > PEACE > > E 41022 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:25pm Subject: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, Your link is good but too long to finish. So I decided to answer now. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammasukha@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Hi, all - I have thought up 7 questions for testing our Dhamma knowledge. If you can correctly answer just 4 of them, you may say with confidence that your knowledge of the Dhamma is sufficient as a firm foundation for more progress along the Path. Let's work together for the best answers to all the 7 questions! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There seem to be the right answers already. But I will answer you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 1. I. Why is bare attention, or `mental noting' during meditation, not contributing to insight knowledge development? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 1: Because 'just attention' does not involve any wisdom. Panna has to be build up. It is said that drop after drop finally makes a full container with water. No perfection means 'no insight development'. For perfection deep understanding is essential. For deep understanding we have to study steadfastly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep' question 2: II. How do we practice mindfulness so that the mind is free from distracting thoughts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 2: Mindfulness is one thing and cleansing away of distracting thoughts is another thing even though mindfulness plays a major role. How do we practise? To be free from distracting thought, calming exercises have toi be done. These exercises are to be learned with wisdom. This wisdom is basic and it sets up right view. Without right view one cannot be free of distracting thoughts. So how do we practise--> stage 1. study to understand the different methods of calming processes and exercises and how they work. stage 2. after collections of the necessary wisdom for understanding of how calming exercises work then start practising by filling up necessary moral conduct or siila. stage 3. with a good thought to bring up mindfulness to cleanse away all distracting thoughts one has to start practising according to the methods that help cleansing these distracting thoughts. stage 4. taking experience from practical matters then try to refine more and more [a good teaching may well be needed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 3: III. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta- sankhara) considered undesirable in vipassana meditation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 3: Because they would put on straying and depart from reality where vipassana works. So they are undesirable. So do not follow them. Just let go. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 4: IV. How would clear insight and vision (of body and mind, nama-rupa) be realized by contemplating thought formations? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 4: Thought formations arise and fall away. Each arises at each object. SOmetimes objects are rupa and sometimes nama. Thoughts are nama and objects are sometimes rupa. Nama and rupa are not mixed but they are separate matter. Thinker is nama and thinkee are sometimes rupa. Thinker and thinkee are not a single one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep'w question 5: V. Why is it important for meditators to balance concentration with discernment and how to do it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo' answer 5: Because they work together. When the engine power of right side of a tank is higher than the left the tank will deviate to the left and vice versa. So balance is needed to go in the guided way. Discern everything and this will bring concentration and balance will arise. If start with concentration then as there lack wisdom there will be imbalance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 6: VI. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 6: Before training is taken, study first what dhammas are. This dhamma does this and that dhamma does that. Example is studying of 'pleasant feelings and its implications'. Without studying one will not fully understand what 'pleasant feeling is and what its implications are. When they have been studied then its potential effect for destruction will be understood. She always comes to me. As soon as she comes in I am already there beside her without ever knowing when I move to her. But when I know that she kicks me out is that when she leaves me with destruction. When destructions are not assumed as destructions then I will always welcome her even though she destroys my properties every time she visits me. Who is she? What are destructions? Why have I been beside her as soon as she comes in? She is Miss Tanha. Destructions are 'strayed thought destroying clear wholesome mind to be clouded'. Why I have been beside her as soon as she comes in is that I have not still realized that she is a destructive person. If you do not want destructions, just avoid her. How does she come? To know this is 'to practise meditation'. I am training my mind. Now I know when she comes. But still I follow her for a few steps before I can stop to follow her and disregard her. Now I reach high grade that sound or voice which might invite strayed thoughts is discarded as soon as it is noted. I have to note it. But I note it with disgust. A sweet food, be mindful she is coming with it. And stop it. But just taste it and do not follow long. Sweet smell do the same. Touch? A bit difficult but one can train it. Touch is controled with siila and reinforced with mental practice of meditation. Sight. This is simple. Just close the eyes. In one session of my meditation I perceive a strong sense which otherwise invite very attractive object. But as soon as it appears I just do not follow it as this heppened before and I do not want to be destroyed . So just try to dispassionate what we think good things and just ignore them after perceiving. This will add equanimity later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 7: VII. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 7: This is invented word. But it is still understandable. Direct seeing means 'not indirect seeing'. What is indirect seeing? It is understanding of things when someone explain us. But direct seeing comes directly from the outset when object arises. As soon as the object arises and cittas arise, things have to be understood are already understood intuitively without any thinking. How to develop? This is a long way and a single answer will not work. 1.study dhammas one after another and collect them as if 1000,000 litres lake will full with water when drop after drop is collected. How to develop? Develop paramis or perfections. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Refference: Reading the Mind by Upasika Kee Nanayon > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/kee/readmind.html#disc > Regards, > Tep ======= 41023 From: Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Kel and Htoo, Thanks for clarifying the difference between the 4th arupa jhana and nirodha samapatti. One slightly unrelated question, when nibbana is the object of a magga citta is that nibbana the cessation of specific latent tendencies? What I mean is, does the aryan see "aha! nothing desirable in sense objects", or "aha! no basis for conceit (comparing)", for example? Is that what is meant by nibbana as object of path consciousness? Or is nibbana as object of path consciousness just a nothing? If nothing, how is that different from the hypothetical situation of consciousness arising without an object? Larry 41024 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Dear Larry, Very very interesting question. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Hi Kel and Htoo, Thanks for clarifying the difference between the 4th arupa jhana and nirodha samapatti. One slightly unrelated question, when nibbana is the object of a magga citta is that nibbana the cessation of specific latent tendencies? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. This is not. Example when sotapatti magga citta arises nibbana serves as an object. From the viewer or from the side of sotapatti magga citta there eradicate some latent dendencies and not all. Only arahatta magga can eradicate latent tendencies without any remanents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: What I mean is, does the aryan see "aha! nothing desirable in sense objects", ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. What he sees is nibbana. ''aha! nothing desirable in sense objects'' is done by earlier mahakusala cittas. Not magga citta. Earlier mahakusala cittas may well be parikamma, upacara, anuloma etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: or "aha! no basis for conceit (comparing)", for example? Is that what is meant by nibbana as object of path consciousness? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No nibbana is complete bliss and free of heat of anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: Or is nibbana as object of path consciousness just a nothing? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Nibbana is something. It is not nothing. Nothingness is the object of 3rd arupa jhana citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: If nothing, how is that different from the hypothetical situation of consciousness arising without an object? Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Have told above. Nibbana is something. There is no citta without an object. Even the 3rd arupa jhana citta has to have an object. That nothingness is not nothing. But the pannatti which has the name 'nothingness' 'the idea of nothing' or 'natthibho pannatta'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41025 From: Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Hi Tep, If there were only one answer this would be a very boring group. So here are some alternate answers to your questions. 1. Why is bare attention, or `mental noting´ during meditation, not contributing to insight knowledge development? L: Bare attention does contribute to insight knowledge development by cutting through papanca (mental proliferation). 2. How do we practice mindfulness so that the mind is free from distracting thoughts? L: By being mindful of thoughts. 3. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta- sankhara) considered undesirable in vipassana meditation? L: Insight is seeing that nothing is desirable or undesirable. 4. How would clear insight and vision (of body and mind, nama-rupa) be realized by contemplating thought formations? L: Seeing that thought formations are not self is clear insight and vision. 5. Why is it important for meditators to balance concentration with discernment and how to do it? L: Discernment arises from concentration like a sprout from the earth. 6. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? L: Mindfulness of pleasant feelings. 7. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? L: Direct seeing is seeing that there is nothing there in what is there. It is developed by looking. Larry 41026 From: Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Htoo, Thanks for answering my questions on nbbana. I will sleep on them. Larry 41027 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Friend Ken H., Ken H: Yes, jhana practice can be a part of Dhamma practice, but I haven't suggested otherwise. (I am not accusing you of intentionally misconstruing my words, but you obviously haven't read them carefully.) James: I am trying my best to follow what you are saying and directly respond, but it seems to me that your position is rather slippery. On the one hand you state that jhana practice can be a part of dhamma practice, and then on the other hand you state that jhana practice can result in a suppression and accumulation of the defilements. So, which is it? Please understand, when I state that jhana practice is important, I do so within the context of the Noble Eightfold Path. There is no reason to worry about suppressing and accumulating defilements with jhana practice when one also follows the other factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. It seems to me that your concerns are unfounded; that you are looking at this issue in a narrow way rather than seeing the big picture-and the big picture is the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James 41028 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:43am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Ken, I don't think I'll respond further on this particular thread. It's clear we are on different wavelengths. Hopefully as we read and respond to other posts we can converge. - Kel 41029 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Text Vis. : But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. N: The Tiika adds that saññaa can be of four planes of consciousness (catubhuumika). Thus, depending on the citta it accompanies, it can be of the sensuous plane, of the planes of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana, and it can also be supramundane, lokuttara. The Tiika adds that its characteristic is the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc. Text Vis.: Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. N: Saññaa marks the object so that it can be recognized later on. Just as carpenters make a sign on timber so that they can recognize it later on. They see that Œthis is the same¹ (tadeva.m ti). The Tiika states that making a mark or label is the condition for perceiving the object again, for remembering or recognizing it. Every saññaa should be interpreted in a similar way. Text Vis: It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant. (Ud. 68-69). N: The Vis. refers to a story in the Udana, about blind people who Œsee¹ an elephant when touching different parts of it. Each of them interpretes differently what an elephant is. The person who touches the head thinks that the elephant is like a pot, and so on. Text Vis: Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men. N: The Tiika adds to the proximate cause, Œan object in whatever way that appears¹, that this is without thinking or consideration (avikappa). Thus, saññaa performs its task of remembering or recognition without thinking about about the object that appears. Just as the fauns that see scarecrows as men. The Tiika states that saññaa accompanied by paññaa follows, complies with understanding, that it interpretes with paññaa (tasmaa abhinivesakaarikaa), and that it does not apprehend wrongly. Saññaa can be accompanied by samaadhi, and the Tiika states that this is not for a short time (acira.t.thaana). When samatha is developed, saññaa has to perform its function for a long time. It has to mark and remember again and again the meditation subject, such as a colour kasina. In this way the meditator can acquire a mental image (nimitta) of it. He does not have to look at it again in order to remember it. When he is more advanced and calm has grown he can attain absorption with this subject. But it takes a long time, it is not easy. The Tiika states that saññaa which accompanies desire, wrong view, conceit and other defilements follows (anuvattika) or complies with those defilements. In that case saññaa is akusala and remembers wrongly. Vis. text: This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the perception aggregate. **** Conclusion: We read in the Dialogues of the Buddha II, Mahaa-parinibbaana sutta, D II, 79, that the Buddha spoke about seven conditons for welfare: the realization of right remembrance of impermanence (aniccaa-saññaa), remembrance of non-self (anattaa-saññaa), of the absence of corruption, of the danger of wrong thoughts, of the necessity of getting rid of them, of purity of heart, of nibbaana. The Commentary to this sutta explains that aniccaa-sañña is saññaa arisen with awareness or recollection of aniccaa (aniccaanupassanaaya). The same is true of anattaa-saññaa and so on. Thus this refers to vipassanaa. Because of wrong view one has wrong remembrance of self, attaa-saññaa, or one takes realities for permanent, and that is niccaa-saññaa. Saññaa accompanies each citta, and when it accompanies wrong view it is conditionedm by wrong view. One may think of persons or things, there is the association of different impressions into a Œwhole¹; one takes persons and things for permanent and Œself¹. Seeing or hearing seem to be lasting. One fails to understand that there are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Saññaa Œfollows¹ wrong view. Whereas, when saññaa accompanies right understanding, it is conditioned by paññaa and thus, it is completely different. It follows or complies with paññaa. Right understanding knows that seeing and hearing arise because of their appropriate conditions and that they have to fall away. It knows that dhammas appear through the six doors, one at a time, and that they do not last. When right understanding is developed there will be, instead of wrong remembrance, right remembrance: anattaa-saññaa and aniccaa-saññaa. **** Nina. 41030 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, I like your straight, direct questions. I add only a little to Larry's answers, selecting just a few points. I like his answers. I snipped to make the post shorter. op 16-01-2005 06:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 1. Why is bare attention, or `mental noting´ during meditation, not > contributing to insight knowledge development? > > L: Bare attention does contribute to insight knowledge development by > cutting through papanca (mental proliferation). N: Meditation teachers use these words, but we have to be clear what they mean by it. Mental noting could be done with an idea of self who does so. Whereas, paññaa which discerns different characteristics without thinking should be emphasized. ... > 3. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta- sankhara) > considered undesirable in vipassana meditation? > > L: Insight is seeing that nothing is desirable or undesirable. N: Thinking is real and it can be object of awareness, see Mindfulness of Citta among the four Applications. ...... > 5. Why is it important for meditators to balance concentration with > discernment and how to do it? > > L: Discernment arises from concentration like a sprout from the earth. N: Right understanding and right concentration of the eightfold Path have as object nama and rupa. When there is right understanding, all other factors are balanced because of it. Nobody has to try to balance, it happens because of conditions. > 6. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? > > L: Mindfulness of pleasant feelings. N: And mindfulness of craving. > 7. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? > > L: Direct seeing is seeing that there is nothing there in what is there. > It is developed by looking. N: The word looking has to be clarified. When we are not careless there can be awareness of the characteristic that appears. When I say characteristic I do not mean the three general characteristics, because we are beginners. We learn that visible object is not sound, that they have different characteristics. Nama and rupa have different characteristics. There has to be awareness over and over again so that this can be discerned. We need many reminders by listening and discussing again and again. Just now Lodewijk said that he begins to see the value of discussions and listening. While in India he was wondering what the use was of talking again and again about seeing, but now he understands. He said that is rather late. But not too late. It made me think of Jon saying that people may have noticed a lot of aversion while in India. But afterwards one sees that the pilgrimage was useful, what one heard had to sink in. Nina. 41031 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: sense-door process, to Larry Hi Larry, I printed out your post about sense-door process arising in the mind-door, how can earth get into the mind, for discussion with Lodewijk. I threw away the original by accident. Lodewijk thinks that it would help to pay more attention to Phassa. This will be soon in Vis. He agrees that it is difficult to know how a sense-door process works. I think that we cannot know all about it, it is complex. The Buddha knew all details. But we can learn just enough about it with the purpose to become detached. You remarked that colour etc. are mental qualities because we can experience the same thing in different ways due to changes in the sense organs. Of course, a sense organ is never the same, it is impermanent, falling away very rapidly. Also a sense object like colour is never the same, it falls away and is replaced. So are all the sense cognitions. Thus, colour, sound, etc. are rupas, and they change all the time. We should not have pictorial ideas that the earth must come into the mind. Hardness can be experienced through the bodysense when it impinges on the bodysense. It is experienced by the citta which is body-consciousness. Citta can experience everything: rupa, nama, concepts, nibbana. Rupa can be experienced by citta arising in a sense-door process and after that by citta arising in a mind-door process. Nama, concepts and nibbana are known through the mind-door. Only insight can solve all doubts. It can begin: colour is one dhamma, sound is another one. They have different conditions for their arising. When colour associates with the eyesense there is a condition for seeing. We can verify this in daily life. When someone is blind there is no seeing. Colour must appear through the eyes, not through the ears. Also this can be verified. We do not have to think of the names sense-door and mind-door. At the first stage of insight knowledge it will be known directly that these doorways are different. When we hear the term doorway we should not think of a gateway. Doorway is the means through which citta experiences an object. Nina. 41032 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, op 12-01-2005 03:08 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > Dear Nina - > > It has been less than two weeks since I posted the message( dated > 12/31/04) which is now replied by your mail # 40900 (dated 1/11/05). > But, thinking about how little time you can squeeze out from the busy > schedule to answer it, I am contented. > T: This is not the first time that I have thought about the problem of > balancing the five indriyas and how to condition the other > bodhipakkhiya dhammas to arise together for the very moment of > enlightenment. Could you please elaborate more on how these 37 > dhammas may be developed together, rather than group by group first > and then summon them to arise together in a single moment? Importantly, how should the following sutta passage be understood? N: Let us go to the sutta at first. > "For him -- uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on > their drawbacks -- the five clinging-aggregates head toward future > diminution. N: remaining focused on their drawbacks, this is a free translation of observing the peril. I would rather begin at the beginning of this sutta. The sutta speaks first about ignorance of whatever appears through the six doors: not knowing eye... visible object...seeing...feelings... is attached to them. That is the explanation of d.O.: ignorance conditions craving. The Co states: when one does not know means: not knowing with vipassana. Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up (vu.t.thaana) to magga. Sutta transl by ATI:The craving that makes for further becoming -- > accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- is > abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are > abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. > His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is > sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. N: PTS has: happiness of body and happiness of mind. The Co explains that sukha of body means: sukha experienced through the doors of the five senses. And mental sukha: experienced through the mind-door. Sutta: "Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right > view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any > mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right > concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were > already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble > eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their > development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the > five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to > the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities > occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight. N: The Co explains about the pair of calm and insight: although at the attainment of jhana (samaapatti) and at the moment of vipassana they are separate, arising at different moments, at the moment of ariyamagga they are together. Thus, at the moment of lokuttara citta they are together. When we just read the translation above it would seem that concentration is a foremost factor for vipassana. But there is more to it, the matter is more complex. As to knowledge, vijjaa and freedom, vimutti, the Co explains that this refers to wisdom of the arahatta magga and that freedom is phalavimutti, the freedom of the fruition of the arahatta. **** As to the balancing of the indriyas, there is a great deal of material. Let us collect different suttas. Also as to the 37 factors, we can make a study of Kindred Sayings, Mahavagga, the secion on the Limbs of Wisdom. I would suggest that we do this little by little. So much material cannot be described in one post. Nina. 41033 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:43am Subject: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard, Phil and All Got a bit behind, not helped by the fact that I accidentally erased all the posts to me I had set aside for replying to, so if you or anyone would care to bring any to my attention (off-list) I'll be grateful. If I remember correctly, Phil and I were discussing the case of a someone who has heard the teachings and who understands about kusala and akusala but who continues to have a lot of akusala thinking in his/her life (sound familiar? ;)). We were saying that this is no doubt attributable to the strongly accumulated innate tendency (anusaya) for akusala thinking that we all have. Now in my view it would not be appropriate, in such a case, to see the development of insight as a matter of `having less (akusala) thinking', or to think that having less thinking will mean more awareness. Such thinking is likely itself to be more akusala thinking (for example, prompted by aversion to the presently occurring `akusala thinking', or perhaps by a mistaken idea as to the conditions for the arising of awareness). For that person as for anyone else, the development of insight is a matter of awareness of the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. This awareness may, as is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta, arise at any time and take any object. Thus the conditions for the arising of awareness do not include *first* having less akusala so that the awareness can arise; awareness may arise while akusala thinking is occurring, and its object may be the akusala thinking itself (or not; the object may as likely be the seeing consciousness or visible object that is occurring at the same time, it matters not). You have suggested that the teaching on Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path is relevant here. Regarding the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as a whole, it is my understanding that these refer to moments of insight development consciousness. This means that they are not describing moments of kusala of a lesser degree than insight development (if that were the case it would make no difference whether or not the teachings had been heard and understood), nor are they describing a means of getting to/causing the arising of moments of insight development (in that case there would be eight separate paths, not a single eightfold path). Specifically in the case of right effort, this as I see it describes the function of the mental factor of effort at a moment of insight development. Note that the description you have quoted begins: "There is the case where" items [i] to [iv] occur …, and finishes with the words: "This, monks, is called right effort.". This I believe is to be read as saying, "If items [i] to [iv] obtain then that is right effort". In each of the 4 instances described it is said that the monk "generates desire, endeavours, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent". Now these expressions are of course all references to kusala, and it seems to me they cannot be references to conventional instances of generating desire, etc. since that would contemplate, for example in the case of generating desire for the arising of unarisen kusala, or or the non-continuance of already arisen akusala, some moments of non-kusala (i.e., akusala) mind- states before the kusala mind-state could arise. As I see it, these expressions describe how right effort `works': right effort is the wholesome mental factor that generates desire for the non-arising of unwholesome states not yet arisen, etc. A person in whom right effort arises can be said in conventional speech to be a person who generates desire etc. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Phil) - ... > > Yes. Of course, the danger lies in the akusala nature of the thinking > > rather than thinking itself. But again, we need to resist the > > inclination to strive for 'having less (akusala) thinking' in the belief > > that this is the path taught by the Buddha. > > > =========================== > Well, as to what the Buddha taught in this regard, there is the > following: > > > > "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk > > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent > > for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not > > yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > > qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates > > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > > qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, > > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, > > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities > > that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." > > >> -- SN XLV.8 41034 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does Hi, Herman Thanks for sharing these thoughts, and for your extensive comments. Some further thoughts of my own are interspersed ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: ... > The householders life is essentially a vote for attachment to the > meaningless, and a rejection of the real. The householders life is > defined in terms of having, not being. And having is defined in > terms of attachment. It sounds like you give the householder no chance at all, Herman ;- )). Yet in the suttas there is frequent mention of lay-followers and of their potential for enlightenment. And among the numerous enlightened lay followers are some who outshine the monks, including in the teaching of dhamma. ... > H > I could not write down a single thought that I have ever had > that wasn't meaningless, except for the thought that they were all > meaningless. Whatever is your experience, it is bound to be the same for everyone. But it would be a mistake I believe to think that the cure for the affliction of a high degree of meaningless thoughts is silence and/or a contemplative life, as you seem to advocate. The underlying problem here is surely a deeply-ingrained tendency (anusaya) to meaningless thinking, and that stays with us wherever we go unless and until overcome by developed insight. Lifestyle changes are not a long-term solution for this kind of illness. ... > > On many occasions those listening to the discourse became > > enlightened then and there or a short time later. > === > > H> Out of interest, did those lay folk who "got it" return to their > householders life, and carry on managing their superannuation funds > (preparing for the future based on the past) as normal? Others have replied to this part of your post already, so you will know by now that in fact some who attained the lower 3 stages of enlightenment did continue their life as before with no outward change (while they were radically changed inwardly, this would not be apparent to other non-enlightened beings). "Getting it" is a condition for giving up the attachment to the lifestyle but not necessarily giving up the lifestyle itself. ... > If the time for relinquishment and release is not now, it will never > be! You mention relinquishment and release of everything that is clung to as though it was just a matter of making a choice to that effect. Unfortunately, because of our accumulated ignorance and wrong view of things (dhammas), there cannot be release from clinging until that ignorance and wrong view have been eradicated by highly developed insight. And that's not a matter of simply deciding or resolving to do something (wishful thinking, I'm afraid). > If intellectual understanding is something held dear, it will be > a cause for great loss and grief. Not contentious, as far as I'm concerned ;-)). ... > H > What you say is technically correct. Of course it is *possible* > that this very moment ripens as path development, regardless of > lifestyle or current situation. I'm glad you agree that development of the path at this moment is possible. Of course, it must be. The next question then is, what are the conditions that support that development of the path (regardless of lifestyle or current situation)? This is the question we need to consider and pursue. Any line of reasoning that takes us away from this inquiry is likely to be wrong view asserting itself in its usual subtle, crafty way. > But is it *probable*? If there are 10 seconds a day of insight and > 23 hours 59 minutes and 50 seconds of involvement in meaningless > concepts, which do you think is being learnt, nurtured, developed, > reinforced, is it insight into reality with a consequent dissolving > of attachments, or is it the preference for illusion and attachment > to it? You seem to be saying that although development of the path while pursuing our present lifestyle is possible, the chances of it bringing any positive result are minimal, so why bother in the first place. I'm afraid I don't follow this line of thinking; wouldn't a little be better than none? In any event, and fortunately for us, it's clear from the suttas that a mere finger-snap of awareness is of inestimable value, so 10 seconds a day would certainly be worth having ;-)). One should not underestimate the power of (true) kusala, or overlook the fact that much of the kilesa occurring in a day is not of a strength that will bring result in the form of vipaka but simply adds to the accumulated tendency for that particular disposition. > I believe that a person who lives in the midst of and maintains > family and friends, possessions and status in the world, and > believes they can all-the-while be completely detached from this is > setting themselves up for an inevitable fall. Well yes, but a belief in the possibility of `all-the-while' detachment would have the same consequence for anyone, monk or layperson. That is not what the development of insight is about or the likes of you or me. The only question we need to consider, as I see it, is whether there can be the development of insight by a layperson and, if so, then how. Anything else (such as the perceived advantage of living a different lifestyle than our present one) is a distraction from the task in hand. My thoughts on things ;-)) Jon 41035 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:48am Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Howard You have commented a number of times on the importance of the choice of terminology, so I am interested to understand your choices here ;- )) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ... > ====================== > It's just ordinary English, Jon, not special Dhammic terminology. To > not be self-existent is to be dependent. Everything that arises does so *in > dependence* on conditions, making them not SELF-existent. There are many aspects of dhammas explained in the texts to help us come to see dhammas as they truly are. For example, dhammas as conditioned (sankata), as not-self (anatta), as impermanent (anicca), as not I, me or mine, etc. These particular aspects were selected by the Buddha for a reason, mainly I think because they help counter particular innate views to the contrary. So I wonder why you choose to select `non-self existent', which as far as I know is not a textual expression, to the exclusion of the aspects already given in the texts. Is it because, as you see it, we are inclined to take dhammas as `self-existent' (whatever that means)? What material difference do you see between this expression and `conditioned'? By "the entire > experiential edifice" I mean all that we experience. No big deal here. I'm not clear on what you mean by "all that we experience", or in what sense you see that as being an "edifice" (I would be inclined to use `edifice' to describe the thinking about what has been experienced, as that is mind-created/constructed). Jon 41036 From: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon (and Phil and all) - In a message dated 1/16/05 8:43:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard, Phil and All > > Got a bit behind, not helped by the fact that I accidentally erased > all the posts to me I had set aside for replying to, so if you or > anyone would care to bring any to my attention (off-list) I'll be > grateful. > > If I remember correctly, Phil and I were discussing the case of a > someone who has heard the teachings and who understands about kusala > and akusala but who continues to have a lot of akusala thinking in > his/her life (sound familiar? ;)). We were saying that this is no > doubt attributable to the strongly accumulated innate tendency > (anusaya) for akusala thinking that we all have. > > Now in my view it would not be appropriate, in such a case, to see > the development of insight as a matter of `having less (akusala) > thinking', or to think that having less thinking will mean more > awareness. Such thinking is likely itself to be more akusala > thinking (for example, prompted by aversion to the presently > occurring `akusala thinking', or perhaps by a mistaken idea as to > the conditions for the arising of awareness). > > For that person as for anyone else, the development of insight is a > matter of awareness of the true nature of a presently arising > dhamma. This awareness may, as is made clear in the Satipatthana > Sutta, arise at any time and take any object. Thus the conditions > for the arising of awareness do not include *first* having less > akusala so that the awareness can arise; awareness may arise while > akusala thinking is occurring, and its object may be the akusala > thinking itself (or not; the object may as likely be the seeing > consciousness or visible object that is occurring at the same time, > it matters not). > > You have suggested that the teaching on Right Effort of the Noble > Eightfold Path is relevant here. Regarding the factors of the Noble > Eightfold Path as a whole, it is my understanding that these refer > to moments of insight development consciousness. This means that > they are not describing moments of kusala of a lesser degree than > insight development (if that were the case it would make no > difference whether or not the teachings had been heard and > understood), nor are they describing a means of getting to/causing > the arising of moments of insight development (in that case there > would be eight separate paths, not a single eightfold path). > > Specifically in the case of right effort, this as I see it describes > the function of the mental factor of effort at a moment of insight > development. > > Note that the description you have quoted begins: > "There is the case where" items [i] to [iv] occur …, > and finishes with the words: > "This, monks, is called right effort.". > This I believe is to be read as saying, "If items [i] to [iv] obtain > then that is right effort". > > In each of the 4 instances described it is said that the > monk "generates desire, endeavours, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent". Now these expressions are of course all > references to kusala, and it seems to me they cannot be references > to conventional instances of generating desire, etc. since that > would contemplate, for example in the case of generating desire for > the arising of unarisen kusala, or or the non-continuance of already > arisen akusala, some moments of non-kusala (i.e., akusala) mind- > states before the kusala mind-state could arise. > > As I see it, these expressions describe how right effort `works': > right effort is the wholesome mental factor that generates desire > for the non-arising of unwholesome states not yet arisen, etc. A > person in whom right effort arises can be said in conventional > speech to be a person who generates desire etc. > > Jon ============================= With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas that I think are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: (II, i, 5) (II, ii, 9) (III, 32) (III, 45) (IV, 12) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41037 From: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/16/05 9:50:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > You have commented a number of times on the importance of the choice > of terminology, so I am interested to understand your choices here ;- > )) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > >====================== > > It's just ordinary English, Jon, not special Dhammic > terminology. To > >not be self-existent is to be dependent. Everything that arises > does so *in > >dependence* on conditions, making them not SELF-existent. > > There are many aspects of dhammas explained in the texts to help us > come to see dhammas as they truly are. For example, dhammas as > conditioned (sankata), as not-self (anatta), as impermanent > (anicca), as not I, me or mine, etc. These particular aspects were > selected by the Buddha for a reason, mainly I think because they > help counter particular innate views to the contrary. > > So I wonder why you choose to select `non-self existent', which as > far as I know is not a textual expression, to the exclusion of the > aspects already given in the texts. Is it because, as you see it, > we are inclined to take dhammas as `self-existent' (whatever that > means)? What material difference do you see between this expression > and `conditioned'? > ------------------------------------ Howard: They mean the same except for emphasis. By saying "not self-existent", I'm drawing out the significance, as I see it, of being conditioned. I think it is important to do so, to see the connection between sankhata and anatta. ------------------------------------- > > By "the entire > >experiential edifice" I mean all that we experience. No big deal > here. > > I'm not clear on what you mean by "all that we experience", or in > what sense you see that as being an "edifice" (I would be inclined > to use `edifice' to describe the thinking about what has been > experienced, as that is mind-created/constructed). > ------------------------------------ Howard: This is no big deal at all, Jon. You can just as well forget my having formulated it that way. ------------------------------------ > > Jon > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41038 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Htoo, I'm still having doubts about nibbana. Is nibbana the cessation of something in particular or is nibbana something in itself? Maybe we could say both in the sense that nibbana is like space. You said nibbana is not nothing because the concept of nothing is the object of the 3rd arupa jhana, so you will probably say nibbana is also not space because the concept of space is the object of the 1st arupa jhana. But I think I want to say nibbana is both, nothing and space. Nirodha samapatti is the cessation of nama; that simply means no nama. Cessation without residue is the cessation of nama and rupa; to me, that simply means not anything, aka nothing. If nibbana is something other than nothing or space then the cessation of something is not nibbana because the cessation of something is nothing. I agree that consciousness of nibbana is not consciousness without an object because that would be an uncaused consciousness and therefore not impermanent. But it is reasonable to say nibbana is uncaused and not impermanent in a sense similar to space being uncaused and not impermanent. If that is the case, how does consciousness perceive space or nothing without a reference point? And how does the perception of an unreferenced space (nibbana?)eradicate particular defilements (depending on the stage of enlightenment)? I ask these questions in reference to my question of whether a magga citta has more than nibbana as object. I'm having a hard time seeing that cessation is not cessation OF something. Larry 41039 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread (236) Dear Dhamma Friends, Marana-asanna-javana cittas are consciousness that arise near dying. Marana means 'death'. Asanna means 'frequently arising'. Javana means 'swift' 'impulsion'. Near dying there arise many different objects. The nearer the death the frequenter these objects. Among those objects one becomes the most frequent one. Because that cittas taking that object are going to produce vipaka cittas in the next life as patisandhi citta, bhavanaga cittas, and cuti citta. Marana-asanna-javana cittas may be akusala javana citatas, or mahakusala javana cittas or rupakusala cittas or arupa kusala cittas. Depending on these which arise at near death there arise kamma or kamma is created to be reborn in the next life. Unlike other javana cittas, marana-asanna-javana cittas when in its last javana vithi vara takes only 5 javana cittas. This happen because the rupa that cittas have to depend on is very weak because of near dying. BBBBBBBBBB...BBBPVSpSnVJJJJJC|Patisandhi of next life in case of pancadvara vithi vara. B = bhavanga citta P = pancadvaravajjana citta Sp= sampaticchana citta Sn= santirana citta V = votthappana citta J = marana-asanna-javana cittas C = cuti citta | = death and end of this life. If it is kamavacara manodvara vithi vara then BBBB..BBBMJJJJJC|Patisandhi If jhana cittas [rupa or arupa] BBB..BBBMPUAGJC|PAtisandhi citta There are only 5 javana cittas in all cases. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41040 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:50am Subject: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Pilgrimage India 2 a. Chapter 2 The Latent Tendencies. Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to life. Wholesome qualities, such as generosity and loving kindness are accumulated and can therefore condition the arising again of kusala citta with generosity and loving kindness. Unwholesome qualities are also accumulated and can therefore condition the arising again of akusala citta. The latent tendencies, anusayas, are unwholesome inclinations that are accumulated and these are classified as a group of seven defilements. They condition the arising of many kinds of akusala cittas. They are the following: sense-desire (kåma-råga), aversion (paìigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå). It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies and their strength. They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise together with akusala citta, but they condition the arising of akusala citta. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour, they are powerful. We are like sick people, because the latent tendencies can condition the arising of akusala citta at any time when there are the appropriate conditions. Only by the magga-citta, path-consciousness, arising when enlightenment is attained, the latent tendencies can be fully eradicated. Latent tendencies are accumulated in each citta, from birth to death. They are accumulated even in kusala citta. **** Nina 41041 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi Howard, I would like to see the suttas, but I have trouble with different annotations in different editions. It is propably ATI and how can I trace it? Or could you perhaps give links? Thank you, Nina. op 16-01-2005 17:35 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to > prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of > selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas that I > think > are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: > > (II, i, 5) > (II, ii, 9) > (III, 32) > (III, 45) > (IV, 12) 41042 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Hi Nina, I have several questions on this subject. First, is a sign a concept? If yes, does that mean sanna cetasika is the source of concepts? Does sanna cetasika perceive, or put together, several dhammas into a whole or is the "making whole" a characteristic of sankhara cetasikas? The tika says, "It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant." I take this to mean sanna (without panna) takes one characteristic of a whole and makes that characteristic a sign of the whole. Also, when a color is a mental image (nimitta) is the color nama or rupa? Larry 41043 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I'm still having doubts about nibbana. Is nibbana the cessation of > something in particular or is nibbana something in itself? Maybe we > could say both in the sense that nibbana is like space. You said > nibbana is not nothing because the concept of nothing is the object > of the 3rd arupa jhana, so you will probably say nibbana is also not > space because the concept of space is the object of the 1st arupa > jhana. But I think I want to say nibbana is both, nothing and space. > Nirodha samapatti is the cessation of nama; that simply means no > nama. Cessation without residue is the cessation of nama and rupa; to > me, that simply means not anything, aka nothing. If nibbana is > something other than nothing or space then the cessation of something > is not nibbana because the cessation of something is nothing. > > I agree that consciousness of nibbana is not consciousness without an > object because that would be an uncaused consciousness and therefore > not impermanent. But it is reasonable to say nibbana is uncaused and > not impermanent in a sense similar to space being uncaused and not > impermanent. If that is the case, how does consciousness perceive > space or nothing without a reference point? And how does the > perception of an unreferenced space (nibbana?)eradicate particular > defilements (depending on the stage of enlightenment)? I ask these > questions in reference to my question of whether a magga citta has > more than nibbana as object. I'm having a hard time seeing that > cessation is not cessation OF something. > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LARRY THE WISE So hard is the questions No word is enough in, For that hard thing Call marked that team. Nibbana above all Adhitthana serves shore, Chandha drags panna Mamsa stuffed samsara, Amsa all lapse what left is That text seving as a map. HTOO NAING 16-01-05 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, You posted hard questions. I remember that there are things that should not access. They are 1. The Buddha's affairs 2. Jhana affairs 3. Magga affairs 4. Phala affairs 5. Nibbana affairs The Buddha did preach how to become a Sammasambuddha by showing His example. The Buddha did teach jhanas. The Buddha did teach magga, phala and nibbana. We are to follow what The Buddha taught. We are not to ponder with our limited worldly logic. When there are right conditions and all perfections have been fulfiled, there is no reason that magga nana cannot arise. When it arises what does it do. Magga citta does many thing. 1. penetrate suffering 2. eradicate craving 3. facing cessation 4. developing path As you said space are space. But regarding space there are many things to talk about. The object of 1st arupa jhana citta is boundless space. But it is not the space that we know. It is a separate thing. Again the object of 3rd arupa jhana is nothingness. It is nothingness. But it is not nothing. It is something. That something is nothingness or 'natthibho pannatta' or 'natthi-bhavo pannatta'. I said nibbana is not nothing and nibbana is something. If nibbana is nothing that means nibbana does not exist. If nibbana is something that means nibbana is a reality. As it exists magga cittas can take it as their object. Nibbana is not space. Nibbana is not nothing. Nibbana is something. Cessation is also true to be said as nibbana. But nibbana is not [space and nothing]. Poem: Your questions are so hard that no explanatory words will suffice to understand and absorb in. For that hard questions, you should call for team already marked as experts in Dhamma. Nibbana always excel all worldly things and it is always above worldly things. If you want it and do adhitthana, you will one day reach the shore of nibbana island. Chandha or wish is so powerful and if you do wish to attain nibbana then that chandha will drag all other dhamma as it is adhipati dhamma and so panna or wisdom will also be dragged along with it. We have passed long samsara and in each life mamsa or 'flesh' or all our bodies which bring suffering stuff the whole samsara and we are still being stuffed with suffering.[quote bhara sutta] Amsa or day lapses one after another and we are dying each day and each moment. Nothing left. But we are still thinking that there are we and to overcome the suffering what really left is text or The Buddha teachings. We are just to follow according to the teachings. Not to think in our own way with our own logic. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41044 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Nina, Larry and Htoo - I truly enjoyed reading your 'solution' contributions to the 'Dhamma Test'. I would like to do 'mental noting' of a few things that I have learned from your answers. 1. Larry disagrees with the notion that 'bare attention' is inadequate for insight development. Nina seems to say that bare attention may possibly mean "pannaa which discerns different characteristics without thinking". 2. Larry says that insight means equanimity in the sense of desire- neutrality. Nina mentions that thinking (mental formation) can be the object of vipassana, which implies that it can be "desirable" (i.e. contributing to panna). Htoo observes that one should let go thinking during meditation because it is not the reality for vipassana purpose. 3. Both Larry and Nina do not see why, during a meditation, concentration has to be in a good balance with discernment. Htoo does. 4. Larry sees that (only) mindfulness of pleasant feelings can clear away craving, but Nina thinks mindfulness of both pleasant feelings and craving can. Htoo suggests that contemplating dispassionate is the key. 5. Larry says direct seeing is seeing emptiness (in rupa and nama) and to be developed by "looking". Nina clarifies the term looking for nama and rupa whose characteristics are discerned after there is awareness "over and over". Htoo says direct seeing is the intuitive understanding of objects and cittas as soon as they arise. I truly appreciate your insights and different styles in answer the Dhamma questions. Now I would like to present some excerpts from the article "Reading the Mind" that I think fits rather nicely as "my answers" to the 7 questions. I hope you see the wisdom of the author (Upasika Kee Nanayon) who was a famous Thai vipassana teacher back in the 60's. I. Why is bare attention or `mental noting' not enough for insight knowledge development? "Mindfulness on its own won't be able to give rise to any real knowledge. At best, it can give you only a little protection against the effects of sensory contact. If you don't make a focused contemplation, the mind won't be able to give rise to any knowledge within itself at all "Letting go of thoughts concocted by defilements is virtue, and we must train ourself to get rid of such thoughts. Thinking and pondering on dhammas in order to understand them, and to displace bad thoughts from the mind, are useful. However, even good thoughts do not support concentration; the opposite, bare attention, is conductive to calmness, but it does not support discernment II How do we practice mindfulness such that the mind is free from distracting thoughts? "If there's anything you have to think about, keep your thoughts on the themes of inconstancy, stress, and not-self. You have to keep the mind thinking and labeling solely in reference to these sorts of themes, for if your thinking and labeling are right, you'll come to see things rightly. So even if there's thinking going on in the mind, simply watch it, simply let it go, and its cycling will slow down. Fewer and fewer thought-formations will occur. Even if the mind doesn't stop completely, it will form fewer and fewer thoughts. You'll be able to stop to watch, stop to know more and more. And this way, you'll come to see the tricks and deceits of thought-formation, mental labels, pleasure and pain, and so on. III. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta-sankhara) considered undesirable? "Sensations, thoughts, labels for pleasure and pain and so forth, are all natural phenomena that change as soon as they're sensed -- and they're very refined. If you view them as being about this or that matter, you won't be able to know them for what they are. The more intricate the meanings you give them, the more lost you become -- lost in the whorls of the cycle of rebirth. "The cycle of rebirth and the processes of thought-formation are one and the same thing. As a result, we whirl around and around, lost in many, many levels of thought-formation, not just one. The knowledge that would read the heart can't break through to know, for it whirls around and around in these very same thought-formations, giving them meanings in terms of this or that, and then latching onto them. If it labels them as good, it latches onto them as good. If it labels them as bad, it latches onto them as bad. This is why the mind stays entirely in the whorls of the cycle of rebirth, the cycle of thought-formation. IV. How would clear insight and vision (of body and mind, nama-rupa) be realized by contemplating thought formations? "But if the mind keeps its balance or stops to watch and know within itself, it can come to realize these things for what they are. When it realizes them, it can let them go automatically without being attached to anything. This is the knowledge that comes with true mindfulness and discernment: It knows and lets go. It doesn't cling. No matter what appears -- good or bad, pleasure or pain -- when the mind knows, it doesn't cling. When it doesn't cling, there's no stress or suffering. "So you have to stop and watch, stop and know clearly by focusing down -- focusing down on the consciousness in charge. That way your knowledge will become skillful. As for sensory contacts -- sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and that sort of thing -- it isn't interested, because it's intent on looking into consciousness pure and simple, to see what arises in there and how it generates issues. V. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? "This is the end goal of samatha-vipassana practice, i.e. ultimates realities are experienced in the true sense. "Ultimately, you'll see that there's nothing at all -- just the arising and disbanding occurring every moment in emptiness. If there's no attachment, there are no issues. There's simply the natural phenomenon of arising and disbanding. "But because we don't see things simply as natural phenomena, we see them as being true and latch onto them as our self, good, bad, and all sorts of other complicated things. This keeps us spinning around without knowing how to find a way out, what to let go of -- we don't know. When we don't know, we're like a person who wanders into a jungle and doesn't know the way out, doesn't know what to do... "Actually what we have to let go of lies right smack in front of us: where the mind fashions things and gives them meanings so that it doesn't know the characteristics of arising and disbanding, pure and simple. If you can simply keep watching and knowing, without any need for meanings, thoughts, imaginings -- simply watching the process of these things in and of itself -- there won't be any issues. There's just the phenomenon of the present: arising, persisting, disbanding, arising, persisting, disbanding... There's no special trick to this, but you have to stop and watch, stop and know within yourself every moment. Don't let your awareness stream away from awareness to outside preoccupations. Gather it in so it can know itself clearly -- that there's nothing in there worth latching onto. VI. Why is it important to balance concentration with discernment and how to do it? "In practicing the Dhamma, if you don't foster a balance between concentration and discernment, you'll end up going wild in your thinking. If there's too much work at discernment, you'll go wild in your thinking. If there's too much concentration, it just stays still and undisturbed without coming to any knowledge either. So you have to keep them in balance. Stillness has to be paired with discernment. Don't let there be too much of one or the other. Try to get them just right. That's when you'll be able to see things clearly all the way through. Otherwise, you'll stay as deluded as ever. You may want to gain discernment into too many things -- and as a result, your thinking goes wild. The mind goes out of control. Some people keep wondering why discernment never arises in their practice, but when it does arise they really go off on a tangent. Their thinking goes wild, all out of bounds. "So when you practice, you have to observe in your meditation how you can make the mind still. Once it does grow still, it tends to get stuck there. Or it may grow empty, without any knowledge of anything: quiet, disengaged, at ease for a while, but without any discernment to accompany it. But if you can get discernment to accompany your concentration, that's when you'll really benefit. You'll see things all the way through and be able to let go. If you're too heavy on the side of either discernment or stillness, you can't let go. VII. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? "Try looking into how feeling gives rise to craving. It's because we want pleasant feeling that craving whispers -- whispers right there at the feeling. If you observe carefully, you'll see that this is very important, for this is where the paths and fruitions leading to nibbana are attained, right here at feeling and craving. If we can extinguish the craving in feeling, that's nibbana... "You have to contemplate to see how craving fastens the mind so firmly to feelings that you never weary of sensuality or of pleasant feelings, no matter what the level. If you don't contemplate so as to see clearly that the mind is stuck right here at feeling and craving, it will keep you from gaining release... "We're stuck on feeling like a monkey stuck in a tar trap. They take a glob of tar and put it where a monkey will get its hand stuck in it and, in trying to pull free, the monkey gets its other hand, both feet, and finally its mouth stuck, too. Consider this: Whatever we do, we end up stuck right here at feeling and craving. We can't separate them out. We can't wash them off. If we don't grow weary of craving, we're like the monkey stuck in the glob of tar, getting ourselves more and more trapped all the time. "So if we're intent on freeing ourselves in the footsteps of the arahants, we have to focus specifically on feeling until we can succeed at freeing ourselves from it. Even with painful feelings, we have to practice -- for if we're afraid of pain and always try to change it to pleasure, we'll end up even more ignorant than before. ---------------------------------------------- Kindest regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > I like your straight, direct questions. I add only a little to Larry's > answers, selecting just a few points. I like his answers. I snipped to make > the post shorter. > Nina. 41045 From: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/16/05 3:02:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > I would like to see the suttas, but I have trouble with different > annotations in different editions. It is propably ATI and how can I trace > it? Or could you perhaps give links? > Thank you, > Nina. ---------------------------------------- Howard: They were not taken from ATI, but from e book The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi, Altamira Press, Copyright 1999 by BPS. The reference notation (X,Y,Z) means X = chapter, Y = sutta number, and Z = vagga/group. The vagga is only for the chapters of The Ones and The Twos. So (II, ii, 9) means Chapter of the Twos, Sutta number two, and vagga number nine. That is how it is explained in the book. ------------------------------------ > > op 16-01-2005 17:35 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to > >prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of > >selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas > that I > >think > >are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: > > > >(II, i, 5) > >(II, ii, 9) > >(III, 32) > >(III, 45) > >(IV, 12) > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41046 From: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi again, Nina - What I wrote printed out poorly. It should have looked more as follows: > Howard: > They were not taken from ATI, but from the book The Numerical Discourses > > of the Buddha, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi, > Altamira Press, Copyright 1999 by BPS. The reference notation (X,Y,Z) means > X = > chapter, Y = sutta number, and Z = vagga/group. The vagga is only for the > chapters of The Ones and The Twos. So (II, ii, 9) means Chapter of the Twos, > Sutta number two, and vagga number nine. That is how it is explained in the > book. > With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41047 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:45pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Hello Nina, Hope you are well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Pilgrimage India 2 a. > > Chapter 2 > > The Latent Tendencies. > > Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the > next citta, unwholesome and wholesome inclinations are accumulated from > moment to moment and from life to life. Wholesome qualities, such as > generosity and loving kindness are accumulated and can therefore condition > the arising again of kusala citta with generosity and loving kindness. > Unwholesome qualities are also accumulated and can therefore condition the > arising again of akusala citta. > The latent tendencies, anusayas, are unwholesome inclinations that are > accumulated and these are classified as a group of seven defilements. They > condition the arising of many kinds of akusala cittas. ...... Azita: If anusayas are unwholesome inclinations, is there a Pali word for the wholesome inclinations? only yesterday I was thinking that 'anusayas' covered both but seems that is incorrect. Can these wholesome ones eventually become perfections [given the right conditions of course]? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41048 From: mnease Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Hi Azita, I think you're looking for 'aayuuhana'. By the way, while I was casting about for this I rediscovered a nice site with a good Paali dictionary: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/ You need some fonts for this which are downloadable from the same page. Cheers! mik ----- Original Message ----- From: "gazita2002" To: Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. > Azita: If anusayas are unwholesome inclinations, is there a Pali > word for the wholesome inclinations? only yesterday I was thinking > that 'anusayas' covered both but seems that is incorrect. 41049 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi Nina & Howard, S: I hope you had a good break, Nina and I'm glad to hear that Lodewijk is appreciating the discussions. It's always good to hear any of his input. --- upasaka@a... wrote: --------------------------------------- > Howard: > They were not taken from ATI, but from e book The Numerical > Discourses > of the Buddha, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu > Bodhi, > Altamira Press, Copyright 1999 by BPS. ---- S: Nina, these are references to the Pali. In the PTS transl,Grad Sayings, see: > > >(II, i, 5) .... PTS Vol 1, p45. starting: 'Two things, monks, I have realized: to be discontented in good states'etc, down to 'That is how ye must train yourselves, monks' at the top of p.46 In BB's transl, he gives it the title 'Unremitting Efort'. --- > > >(II, ii, 9) .... PTS Vol, p53. this is Lodewijk's favourite which you quoted in part I, India series...'Abandon evil..' etc BB's transl, 'Abandon Evil' --- > > >(III, 32) .... PTS Vol 1, p116. Sariputta' BB's transl, 'Free of I-making'. --- > > >(III, 45) ... PTS Vol 1,p134. 'Duties' BB's transl, 'Prescribed by the Wise' --- > > >(IV, 12) .... PTS Vol2, p.14, 'Virtue' BB's transl, 'Training in Determination and Insight'. --- I hope this helps. Metta, Sarah ====== 41050 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:42pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 99- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (k) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Cetanå which accompanies lokuttara citta is not a link in the Dependant Origination. The lokuttara citta which is 'magga-citta' (path-consciousness) produces vipåka (the phala-citta or fruitconsciousness)immediately; the phala-citta succeeds the maggacitta. Since the magga-citta eradicates defilements it will free one from the cycle of birth and death. The arahat is freed from rebirth. He does not perform kamma which can produce vipåka. The cetanå which accompanies the kiriyacittas of the arahat and the ahetuka kiriyacitta which is the hasituppåda-citta (smile-producing consciousness) of the arahat, is not abhisaòkhåra, it is not a link in the Dependant Origination1.(1) *** 1) The arahat has no kusala cittas nor akusala cittas, cittas which are cause, which can motivate kamma which produces result. Instead he has kiriya cittas,inoperative cittas, which do not produce result. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41051 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Hi Mike & Azita, Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I heard K.Sujin saying, I believe. PTS dict says similar in derivation to anusaya and semantically related. Inclination etc; often combined and compared with anusaya(inclination, hankering, disposition)see Vbh 340 and other refs given. When it is combined with anusaya, I believe aasaya refers to only good latent tendencies. I'm sure Nina will be adding more. Metta, Sarah ====== --- mnease wrote: > > Hi Azita, > > I think you're looking for 'aayuuhana'. ... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "gazita2002" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:45 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. > > > Azita: If anusayas are unwholesome inclinations, is there a Pali > > word for the wholesome inclinations? only yesterday I was thinking > > that 'anusayas' covered both but seems that is incorrect. 41052 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali, Pali and New to the list Hi Tep, I'm enjoying all your threads, including the quiz discussions. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > Hi, Sarah - > > Thank you very much for the valuable Pali usage guidelines for new > members (including me). I notice that nearly (99.99%?) everyone here > refer to Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta translations. Are there an online version > of these excellent works? ... S: Mostly not, apart from some which have appeared as Wheel translations, eg the Discourse on Right View (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta and comy) transl by Nanamoli and edited and revised by Bodhi. Actually, there are quite a few good wheel translations on line (I believe some on the ATI site), so maybe have a list of these handy. I was discussing another from MN with comy notes recently with James which was also on line. They're very useful. The Wheels can mostly be obtained from BPS or Pariyatti in the States and are very cheap (esp from BPS). The AN Anthology Howard was referring to: 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' is a fairly slim, paperback anthology of BB's and Nyanaponika's translations - most (if not all) used to be in wheels as I recall. It's really worth getting and not too expensived. The MN and SN translations are large texts and therefore more pricey. .... >I have relied upon AccesstoInsight and > MettaTipitaka for a long time and felt like a loner among the majority > of > deep-sea divers here. Any suggestion? ... S: Don't feel like a loner in this regard, it's just a noisy minority that refers to the others, I'm sure. It is good to compare translations and I think where Nanamoli/Bodhi ones are available with commentary notes in brief or full, these are generally the best at this time. I actually 'grew up' on the PTS text translations which were all that used to be available and vary quite a lot. (Nina still mainly uses these - in some cases, like for the full AN, they are still all that is available). I've seldom used the ATI or Metta site translations (never before DSG)as I like to look at a hard copy. I recommend saving up for and purchasing BB's when you are able. You're one person who would get great use out of them. (Ask Phil, he's just taken the plunge and has gone very quiet in the process;-)). Metta, Sarah ===== 41053 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Hi Steve & All, > --- seisen_au wrote: > > Hi All > > I have a query regarding the avijja>sankhara links of > > Paticcasamuppada. My understanding is that kusala citta can not be > > rooted with avijja/moha. How then is it explained that avijja > > conditions kusala kamma/cetana/sankhara? > … > S: I think the installment just posted answers this. .... S: In addition to the brief comments Htoo and I gave, I just came across the following post with quotes Nina and I gave before from Dispeller which adds more: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39821 Metta, Sarah S: >Avijja is the > direct > or indirect cause of all conditioned dhammas. Without ignorance of > realities and the 4NT, no rebirth, no suffering and so on. Remember the > 3 > rounds of kilesa vatta, kamma vatta and vipaka vatta. Kusala is included > in kamma vatta, but not in kilesa vatta. Also,under natural decisive > support condition, akusala can be a condition for kusala and vice versa > too. Do you have BB's translation of the Mahanidana Sutta and > commentaries? At the back, there is a detailed explanation of the > various > conditions involved, I believe. Also lots in 'Dispeller', which I'm > happy > to add. 41054 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Mike & Azita, > > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I heard > K.Sujin saying, I believe. > > PTS dict says similar in derivation to anusaya and semantically related. > Inclination etc; often combined and compared with anusaya (inclination, > hankering, disposition)see Vbh 340 and other refs given. When it is > combined with anusaya, I believe aasaya refers to only good latent > tendencies. > ======= Dear Azita, This tape talks about aasaya and anusaya http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/india2004/A_BodhGaya_06.mp3 Robert 41056 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: Pali, Pali and New to the list Hi, Sarah - S: > Actually, there are quite a few good wheel translations on line > (I believe some on the ATI site), so maybe have a list of these handy. > The Wheels can mostly be obtained from BPS or > Pariyatti in the States > and are very cheap (esp from BPS). > The AN Anthology Howard was referring to: 'Numerical Discourses of > the Buddha' is a fairly slim, paperback anthology of BB's and > Nyanaponika's translations - most (if not all) used to be in wheels as I recall. It's really worth getting and not too expensived. > The MN and SN translations are large texts and therefore more pricey. Thank you for the valuable information- it's very kind of you to give me the detail which is exactly what I asked for. Also, I am happy that you and Jon have approved those threads I have written so far. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I'm enjoying all your threads, including the quiz discussions. > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Sarah - > > > > Thank you very much for the valuable Pali usage guidelines for new > > members (including me). I notice that nearly (99.99%?) everyone here > > refer to Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta translations. Are there an online version > > of these excellent works? > ... > S: Mostly not, apart from some which have appeared as Wheel translations, > eg the Discourse on Right View (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta and comy) transl by > Nanamoli and edited and revised by Bodhi. Actually, there are quite a few > good wheel translations on line (I believe some on the ATI site), so maybe > have a list of these handy. I was discussing another from MN with comy > notes recently with James which was also on line. They're very useful. The > Wheels can mostly be obtained from BPS or Pariyatti in the States and are > very cheap (esp from BPS). > > The AN Anthology Howard was referring to: 'Numerical Discourses of the > Buddha' is a fairly slim, paperback anthology of BB's and Nyanaponika's > translations - most (if not all) used to be in wheels as I recall. It's > really worth getting and not too expensived. The MN and SN translations > are large texts and therefore more pricey. > .... > >I have relied upon AccesstoInsight and > > MettaTipitaka for a long time and felt like a loner among the majority > > of > > deep-sea divers here. Any suggestion? > ... > S: Don't feel like a loner in this regard, it's just a noisy minority that > refers to the others, I'm sure. It is good to compare translations and I > think where Nanamoli/Bodhi ones are available with commentary notes in > brief or full, these are generally the best at this time. I actually 'grew > up' on the PTS text translations which were all that used to be available > and vary quite a lot. (Nina still mainly uses these - in some cases, like > for the full AN, they are still all that is available). > > I've seldom used the ATI or Metta site translations (never before DSG)as I > like to look at a hard copy. I recommend saving up for and purchasing BB's > when you are able. You're one person who would get great use out of them. > (Ask Phil, he's just taken the plunge and has gone very quiet in the > process;-)). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 41057 From: mnease Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Hi Rob and Sarah (and Azita), Thanks for the corrections. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 1:39 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi Mike & Azita, > > > > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I > heard > > K.Sujin saying, I believe. > > > > PTS dict says similar in derivation to anusaya and semantically > related. > > Inclination etc; often combined and compared with anusaya > (inclination, > > hankering, disposition)see Vbh 340 and other refs given. When it is > > combined with anusaya, I believe aasaya refers to only good latent > > tendencies. > > > ======= > Dear Azita, > This tape talks about aasaya and anusaya > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/india2004/A_BodhGaya_06.mp3 > Robert 41058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, Perhaps I have to clarify a little more what I said. op 16-01-2005 22:43 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: T: 2. Nina mentions that thinking (mental formation) can be the > object of vipassana, which implies that it can be "desirable" (i.e. > contributing to panna). N: I meant to say: anything that is real and appears can be object of vipassana, thus also thinking. T: 3. Both Larry and Nina do not see why, during a meditation, > concentration has to be in a good balance with discernment. Htoo > does. N: Yes, balance is necessary. I said: <: Right understanding and right concentration of the eightfold Path have as object nama and rupa. When there is right understanding, all other factors are balanced because of it. Nobody has to try to balance, it happens because of conditions.> If that would not be the case one would try and try to concentrate on nama and rupa, but that would not help. Paññaa has to see them as conditioned, not caused by a self. Tep, thanks for the article, but now I cannot read it, it is too long. Could you give a summary and render especially what you yourself think about it. Nina. 41059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi Sarah and Howard, thank you both for all the trouble. I have got it. I like the suttas very much and shall study them with the Commentaries I have in Thai. op 17-01-2005 05:36 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: I hope you had a good break, Nina and I'm glad to hear that Lodewijk is > appreciating the discussions. It's always good to hear any of his input. N: Thanks, it was excellent, and I had good discussions with Lodewijk while having delicious meals at the restaurant. They made long breaks between courses, but we took suttas and my notebook to the table. Why waste our time and dillydally. We discussed about suttas Lodewijk had read. I shall render more of Lodewijk's words by and by. We also discussed Larry's and Joop's points. This morning we discussed about Howard's points. Nina. 41060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Sarah, Mike, Azita. op 17-01-2005 06:07 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I heard > K.Sujin saying, I believe. N: K. Sujin said in India that aasaya refers to good accumulated inclinations. Meaning: abode, dependence, support, condiiton, inclination. When we speak about latent tendencies, this term is reserved only for the seven unwholesome tendencies that lie dormant in the citta. Anusaya: sayati or seti: to sleep. It lies dormant. Now I shall quote from the Co in Thai I translated: Azita, do ask if there is anything not clear. Nina. 41061 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Hi Larry, op 16-01-2005 21:07 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I have several questions on this subject. First, is a sign a concept? N: Sign, nimitta, can have several meanings, depending on the context. When it is in the context of samatha it is for example the mental image of a kasina and that is a concept. In our text it stands for saññaa making a mark again and again and recognizing the object again and again. In this context we have to remember that sañña arises with each citta, it is a universal cetasika. This means that it shares the same object with citta and thus it marks and remembers realities, citta, cetasika and rupa, and concepts. It can also mark nibbana. There is still another meaning of nimitta. When it is explained in the suttas: not paying attention to the image and the details (nimitta and anuvyañjana), nimitta has the meaning of an image or concept of a whole. Seeing sees visible object, but after seeing we pay attention to a person or thing we perceive and we fail to see that that is not seeing visible object but thinking of a concept. We cling to such images and believe that they exist, that they are lasting and permanent. L: If yes, does that mean sanna cetasika is the source of concepts? N: It also remembers concepts. I would not say, source. L: Does sanna cetasika perceive, or put together, several dhammas into a > whole or is the "making whole" a characteristic of sankhara > cetasikas? N: Saññaa can remember a whole of several impressions, and we call this whole concept or idea. This can be remembered with wrong view but not necessarily so. Also arahats remember concepts. They recognize persons and things. Saññaa itself is not the defaulter, but the accompanying wrong view. However, saññaa does not always put together several dhammas into a whole. When it arises in a sense-door process it merely marks the rupa experienced by citta at that moment. It arises with the sense-door adverting consciousness, with the sense-cognition, etc. When it arises with insight it marks only one nama or rupa at a time which is the object of insight, no wholes or concepts. L:The tika says, "It is manifested as the action of > interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind > who 'see' an elephant." I take this to mean sanna (without panna) > takes one characteristic of a whole and makes that characteristic a > sign of the whole. N: There are several moments of citta accompanied by saññaa. Before the blind think of an elephant there have to be moments of body-consciousness experiencing tangible object, such as hardness or softness, thus, rupas, not concepts. After that they think of the whole of a pot shape, and that is a concept. Then they associate this wrongly with elephant. This is an example of wrong interpretation. The text gives this example and makes a contrast with right interpretation, not taking things wrongly. That is the case when saññaa is accompanied by paññaa which sees things as they are. L: Also, when a color is a mental image (nimitta) is the color nama or > rupa? N: Neither, it is a paññatti. I think here of the colour kasina. Nina. 41062 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Thank you, Sarah! You did a lot better in your reply than I. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/16/05 11:36:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > Hi Nina &Howard, > > S: I hope you had a good break, Nina and I'm glad to hear that Lodewijk is > appreciating the discussions. It's always good to hear any of his input. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > --------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > They were not taken from ATI, but from e book The Numerical > >Discourses > >of the Buddha, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera &Bhikkhu > >Bodhi, > >Altamira Press, Copyright 1999 by BPS. > ---- > S: Nina, these are references to the Pali. In the PTS transl,Grad Sayings, > see: > > >>>(II, i, 5) > .... > PTS Vol 1, p45. starting: > > 'Two things, monks, I have realized: to be discontented in good > states'etc, down to 'That is how ye must train yourselves, monks' at the > top of p.46 > > In BB's transl, he gives it the title 'Unremitting Efort'. > --- > >>>(II, ii, 9) > .... > PTS Vol, p53. this is Lodewijk's favourite which you quoted in part I, > India series...'Abandon evil..' etc > > BB's transl, 'Abandon Evil' > --- > >>>(III, 32) > .... > PTS Vol 1, p116. Sariputta' > > BB's transl, 'Free of I-making'. > --- > >>>(III, 45) > ... > PTS Vol 1,p134. 'Duties' > > BB's transl, 'Prescribed by the Wise' > --- > >>>(IV, 12) > .... > PTS Vol2, p.14, 'Virtue' > > BB's transl, 'Training in Determination and Insight'. > --- > I hope this helps. > > Metta, > > Sarah /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41063 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Nina - > N: > Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up > (vu.t.thaana) to magga. T: Could you please explain the term vu.t.thaana a bit? Is the strength of vipassana the same as strength (bala) of the five indriyas? > N: When we just read the translation above it would seem that > concentration is a foremost factor for vipassana. > But there is more to it, the matter is more complex. T: Do you mean that both concentration as samadhi (stillness of mind), and concentration as a factor of the enlightenment (samadhi sambojjhanga) are requisites for vipassana? Or is there more to it? > N: As to knowledge, vijjaa and freedom, vimutti, > the Co explains that this refers to wisdom of the arahatta magga > and that freedom is phalavimutti, the freedom of > the fruition of the arahatta. T: In other words, does the Co mean that direct knowledge is only experienced by the Arahat? If that's true, then the ordinary people can never hope to train for direct knowledge by jumping on the vipassana wagon without prior trainings in purifications of virtues, consciousness (samadhi) and views (ditthi)? > N: As to the balancing of the indriyas, there is a great deal of material. > Let us collect different suttas. Also as to the 37 factors, we can make a > study of Kindred Sayings, Mahavagga, the secion on the Limbs of > Wisdom. I would suggest that we do this little by little. So much > material cannot be described in one post. T: Great idea, Nina. Let's do just that. Thank you for asking me to 'walk along' with you. Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 12-01-2005 03:08 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > > 41064 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, Thanks for your full answers. I appreciate your research, your quotes, and your understanding on Dhamma. Here I responded your answers, which may be agreeing, adding, or may be some different views. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com, tepsastri@y... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Hi Htoo and Everyone - I appreciate your thought very much, Htoo. In my previous post there was a confusing use of the terminology: in question IV nama-rupa might be confused with citta-sankhara. Thank you for letting me know it. Now it is my turn to give my answers and hope to see more discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Tep. This is the point why I respond your answers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: I. Why is bare attention or `mental noting' not enough for insight knowledge development? Tep's answer I. Mental noting is an effectvie training tool for fostering mindfulness when a distracting thought arises; the meditator is aware of the thought, he lets it go and turns his mind back to the meditation. Mental noting is also very useful to train for awareness of body movements and when a sense contact arises. It is one of the conditions that support discernment, but insight knowledge development requires vipassana of the three characteristics of the five aggregates. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment on discussion I. 1. 'Mental noting' is 'an effective tool' for fostering mindfulness [helps cleansing distracting thoughts]. 2. 'Mental noting' is useful to train for 'awareness of body movement'. Question: What do you mean by 'when a sense contact arises'? The last sentence is dead right. But this has not to be transferral from book knowledge. It has to be direct knowledge which is the exact copy of what The Buddha discovered and preached to His disciples. For this portion, I will be looking forward to hearing the answer to ''Question:what do you mean by 'when a sense contact arises'? '' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question II: II. How do we practice mindfulness so that the mind is free from distracting thoughts? Tep's answer II: When a distracting thought occurs we simply observe it with bare attention. If after several mental notings the distrating thought is still strong we would have to change the tactic to repeat one or more of the followings. 1) Re-focus your attention on the breathing again. 2) Reflect on the drawbacks of the distracting thoughts. 3) Investigate the distracting thought itself (its composition, its being a conditioned thing, its being not-self), then let it go and return to the primary object of meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The trainee needs to note that 'when a distracting thought arises' note it as distracting thought and know its arising. By the same token 'when a well concentrated mind is there' note it as 'well concentrated mind' and its persistence. This is 'cittaanupassana' or 'detail-noting-on-current-mind-state'. Mahasatipatthana or 'mindfulness meditation' tells us to note each arising whatever it is concentrated mind or distracted mind. So called is vipassana and this clearly indicates whether jhana is needed or not. If arupa jhana cittas arise, note them as well concentrated mind and if rupa jhana cittas arise, again note them as well concentrated mind. If concentrated mind of sensuous kind arise, note it as 'well concentrated mind'. By the same token, when distracting thoughts arise note them as distracting thoughts. This is both dhamma-anupassana and citta-anupassana. Because 'distracting mind' is nivarana dhamma or 'hindrance' and noting it as 'nivarana' or 'hindrance' is dhamma-anupassana. Again these mind whatever concentrated or distracted they are cittas and so noting on them as such and such cittas is citta-anupassana. This is just an example of co-arising. If well trained other co- arising will also be seen. If well perfected co-arising of more than 30 dhammas will be noted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's answer II continued: Indeed, a distracting thought is a hindrance. Recall the Ven. Vimalaramsi's advice: "when a hindrace arises there is also the like or dislike of that state of mind. If one likes this feeling then the meditator will indulge in it and get caught by it so this feeling gets stronger and happens more often. Also, if the meditator doesn't like it then this dissatisfaction can cause mind to get caught by the attachment to restlessness and the feeling gets stronger. So it takes a very balanced mind that notices when a hindrance arises and is able to see just how it occurs". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: Bhante Vimalaramsi is an amazing bhikkhu in such matter. He can catch 'I like it' 'I don't like it' mind. Actually when I wrote 'Tracing the mind track' I wrote as 'recognizing riding flow'. The flow here is arising and falling away of citta. It is flowing by continuously arising while at the same time it is continuously falling away one after another. This is the flow, I wrote. Riding the word is designated as 'recognizer'. That recognizer is riding for example on a horse back and it the same time he knows whether the horse is a male or female horse [there may be some words for more appropriate usage like 'stellion', but at least this may work]. This is a simile. It is flowing. At the exact present moment is rider and who is also recognizer. So this recognizer may detect 'I like it' 'I don't like it' mind much more earlier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question III: III. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta- sankhara) considered undesirable? Tep's answer III: Simply because thought formations are not real, and they lead mind to the kind of consciousness that promotes accumulation of the clinging aggregates (upadanakkhandha). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: I do not agree on 'thought formations are not real'. Tep, why do you say they are not real? Is it because of our terminology? What I know is 'thought formations' or 'mental fabrications' or 'citta-sankhara' or '50 cetasikas' after leaving vedana and sanna cetasikas who are separate khandhas are all real. They are paramattha dhamma. Question: Why should they be not real? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question IV: IV. How would clear insight and vision be realized by contemplating thought formations? Tep's answer IV: Simply by contemplating (vipassana) the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) of the thought formations that are arising or passing away at the present, moment by moment, diligently and mindfully. We must train to focus in on mind in order to see clearly each of the three characteristics of the concocted thoughts and their drawbacks (they make us blind, deluded, and unable to let go of the defilements, etc.). Only then, can we develop clear insight and vision of the clinging aggregates. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's addition: I agree with you. Here I add more information. Mental formations are real dhamma. They are ultimate realities. They are paramattha dhamma. They are cetasikas. They do arise and do fall away. They bring 'impermance' by arising and falling away. They do bring unsatifactoriness because of this impermanence. They do bring self- less characteritic as they are not controllable [if controllable it will be possible that 'this dhamma do not arise here' 'that dhamma do not fall away'. But unfortunately this is not the case and all dhamma are anatta. So by contemplating on 'mental formation' which is realities this will finally lead to recognizing of three characteristics. Again this has to be direct knowing and this has not to be transferral from the text or hearing from others including The Buddha. But before this direct knowledge it is essential to have the right view and to understand these characteritics as The Buddha taught. Otherwise The Buddha would not have taught us and would have told us 'try yourselves and see them by your direct knowledge'. But The Buddha did not. The Buddha explained anicca, dukkha, anatta in line with 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates [quote anatta-lakkhana-sutta]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question V: V. Why is it important for meditators to balance concentration with discernment and how to do it? [a)why important,b)how to balance] Tep's answer V: Too much concentration will lead mind to absorption and weak discernment. Too much discernment results in mind being bombarded with lots of thoughts and lost concentration. Therefore, we have to balance concentration with discernment. Concentration and discernment are in the dhamma group known as 'indriyas'. The meditator balances the two indriyas by withdrawing from concentration before it gets to be absorbed in equanimity and contemplating on the one of the five clinging aggregates (such as thought formations) based on vipassana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: I agree. There are 5 indriya dhammas or 5 faculties. They also work as bala dhamma or 'leaders not afraid of any enemies'. They are 1. saddha or 'confidence'[this is not enough translation] 2. sati or mindfulness 3. viriya or effort 4. samadhi or concentration 5. panna or wisdom Even arising of saddha may work for the whole 5 indriyas. In which way? If saddha is strong then other may follow and this finally lead to equilibrium. To become a Sammasambuddha initial dhammas may be 1. saddha 2. viriya 3. panna If one determines to become a Sammasambuddha on the basis of saddha then this will finally lead to fulfiling of perfections and seraching of dhamma and then will become a Sammasambuddha. But this is the longest way to become a Sammasambuddha. It takes 16 asankheyas and 100,000 kappas. If one determines on the basis of viriya, it will take 8 asankheyas and 100,000 kappas. The shortest way is on the basis of panna. It takes 4 asankheyas and 100,000 kappas. The Buddha Gotama had to fulfil for 4 sankheyas and 100,000 kappas. But balancewise saddha, sati,viriya seem arise easily while concentration and panna are the hardest things to achieve. Every Buddhist knows this. Some argue concentration is important. Some argue panna is important. Even there are 2 different kind of classifications on lokuttara cittas. One is 8 lokuttara cittas and another is 40 lokuttara cittas. This difference is because of concentration. But panna is included in both classifications. So it is evident that which is more important. But before attaining anything, it is hard to tell how to achieve these. Panna first or concentration first or panna and concentration in tandem or other unspecifed way [quote yuganaddha sutta]. Anyway before attaining any thing, it is wise to balance concentration and wisdom. Tep already explained why they are important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question VI: VI. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? Tep's answer VI: By constantly reflecting on the drawbacks of pleasant feelings, e.g. they are impermanent and will surely lead to dukkha; they delude mind by making it unaware of the dangers of cravings and the consequential sufferings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: Good answer. It is complete. When all 'dukkha' are understood with the aid of teachers or texts it will not be hard to contemplate 'undesirable' on these 'pleasant feeling'. I had my person meditative experience. Once when I was young I lived in a flat. Neighbour could be well heard as partitions were not that thick. My meditation sessions were mostly in the evening and late evening. Early evening was not a problem. In late evening there sometimes were problems with noice. It was quite distracting. As this group is Buddhism Discussion Group, it would not be appropriate to say vulgar things or something like that. But it is essential here. It was a young couple. Now you can think it out. So my late sessions always had to be canceled and I had to go outside. I tested once, twice and walked away. After a month or so I acquired a special recognition on arising thought and I was able to turn that thought. I continued to meditate in the middle of noice and I was able to turn my mind to the right object. This was just sharing how I did on the matter. But actually sappaya or suitability is very important. That is why most monastries in Buddhist countries in the past were outskirt of the cities, towns, villages etc etc. Whenever pleasant feeling arises we have to discern on it as dukkha. As there are many different kind of dukkha it is possible to contemplate as dukkha on pleasant feeling.[Four Ariya' Noble Truth series in this JTN site explains different kinds of dukkha]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question VII: VII. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? Tep's answer VII: Direct seeing is the insight knowledge (vipassana-nana) of body-mind, internal and external sense media (salayatana), and five clinging aggregates at the present, the way they really are, i.e. anicca, dukkha and anatta. The answers in IV, V, and VI above are all about the development of direct seeing. MN149, Maha-salayatanika Sutta: The Great Six Sense-media Discourse is a great sutta that explains how direct seeing through the six sense media can be developed. "For him -- uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. "Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development (bodhipakkhiya-dhamma). [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight. "He comprehends through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be comprehended through direct knowledge, abandons through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be abandoned through direct knowledge, develops through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be developed through direct knowledge, and realizes through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be realized through direct knowledge. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn149.html Kind regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: Very good Tep. These discussions are very helpful. Regarding 'direct seeing', The Buddha preached Dhamma attributes. It is ''paccattam-veditabbo vinnuhi'ti''. Each directly sees and become the wise and it is an attribute of Dhamma. May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41065 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (237) Dear Dhamma Friends, Caution!! This is a special post. Dhamma Thread is for all grades of Dhamma learners. Actually I starts with very very simple messages. More simple things are still coming. Whenever advanced matters are seen, beginners can keep them unread until they become advanced. There are citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana when everything is seen at ultimate level. Nothing more than these dhamma. I will repeat there are citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana and nothing more than these dhamma as ultimate realities. At any given time there always is a citta. Citta cannot arise in its own without any cetasika. So 'there always is a citta' already include its associated cetasikas. 'There always is a citta' means a citta of 89 total cittas or 121 total cittas. 'At any given time' is given to the viewer who would view on citta. Again citta may be ajjhattika or 'inside' or 'intrinsic'. This is what the viewer will definitely see with his mind-eye. Or citta may be bahiddhika or 'outside' or 'extrinsic'. This is indirect understanding that there exist citta outside. But outside cittas can never be sensed as first-hand knowledge. There are many many cittas and 89 cittas means 'just a summary of cittas with specific characterisitcs, which when say have such and such characteritics'. In actual term, there are infinite cittas and countless cittas even within ourselves. Anyway at any given time there is a citta. If it is patisandhi kala or 'at the time of rebirth' that citta is called patisandhi citta. This citta is process-free citta. It is also vithi-mutta citta [process-free]. It is also dvara-vimutta citta. That means this citta does not arise at any of 6 dvara or doors namely cakkhu-dvara or eye-door, sota-dvara or ear-door, ghana-dvara or nose-door, jivha-dvara or tongue-door, kaya-dvara or body-door, and mano-dvara or mind-door. That citta already determines what the satta should be. The sattas here means a being and this is just a name but we all understand what it is. Depending on this kind of citta called patisandhi cittas there are 31 kinds of satta or beings. Or they are born in 31 realms or 31 bhumis. Among 31 bhumis, asannisattas are interesting because they do not have any citta and they live with rupa only. How can that happen in the world [world of kama, world of rupa, world of arupa]? It of course can happen. Before discussing on this let us continue on cittas. When at a given time a citta is a bhavanga citta it also indicates that such citta arises in so and so satta or being. By the same token when the given time is at cuti kala or just before disappearing from the current life, citta at that time is called cuti citta or dying-consciousness. It also determines what sort of satta hosts that citta. So 1.patisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness or linking- consciousness, 2.bhavanga citta or life-continuum or life-continuing- consciousness, 3.cuti citta or dying-consciousness are all called process-free consciousness or vithi-mutta cittas. Vithi cittas and vithi varas have been discussed in the previous posts. So if the given time is not 'patisandhi, bhavanga, cuti' then a citta has to be one of vithi citta. We will not talk on a single vithi citta. But we need to discussed a single vara and then to different vithi varas. So far we have discussed on 1. pancadvara vithi vara ( at 1.eye, 2.ear, 3.nose, 4.tongue, 5.body) There are 4 kinds of 'arising of different vithi citta in a vithi vara' and it is called 'visaya-pavatti'. For pancadvara vithi cittas, objects make arising of 4 different series of cittas and these series or processing cittas arise in visaya-pavatti. 4 visaya-pavatti for pancadvara vithi vara are 1.ati-mahanta-arammana [very clear object] 2. mahanta-arammana [ clear object] 3. paritta-arammana [ faint object] 4.ati-paritta-arammana [very faint object] So there will be 4 >< 5 = 20 pancadvara vithi varas. 2.manodvara vithi vara a) kama javana vara 1.vibhuta-arammana [very obvious object] 2.avibhuta-arammana[ obvious object] b) jhana vithi vara c) magga vithi vara d) abhinna vithi vara e) jhana-samapatti f) phala-samapatti g) nirodha-samapatti So 'at a given time' there is a citta [cetasikas already included] and that citta has to be one of 19 cittas when it is a process-free consciousness. Otherwise it is one of vithi cittas in the above vithi vara. Special vithi vara that does not include here is marana-asanna-javana vithi vara. It is the last process of cittas in a life and it has been explained in the previous post. It may well be kama javana vara of akusala or kusala. Or it may well be jhana vithi vara. But it cannot be nirodha-samapatti. If it is then it is not a full one. That is arahat will end with some phala or kiriya citta as the last javana citta and the final one is cuti-citta, which is like the patisandhi- citta when they life started before attaining arahatship. There left an interesting vithi vara. It is before and after arising of asannisatta brahmas. Asannisattas do not have any citta. So they do not have any vithi vara or vithi citta or patisandhi citta or cuti citta. They are said to arise with rupa-patisandhi and when they die they die with rupa-cuti. Once I found a message that 'asannisattas have 2 exceptional cittas and one is patisandhi citta and another is cuti citta'. I do not believe that asannisatta brahmas have any citta at all. So in that case of asannisattas what happen to linking? What and what are linked? What will be marana-asanna-javana cittas in them? As they do not have any citta, there is no marana-asanna-javana citta. If so, what will be the object of next life's patisandhi citta? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- the cycle and the arahat, Htoo. Dear Htoo, I try to answer. The arahat is no longer subject to the cycle, but for him: no more avijjaa, no more abhisankhara. There is still vipaaka that is the result of former kamma, committed before he was an arahat. This does not mean that he is still subject to the cycle of birth and death. See Samyutta Nikaya II, Upanisa Sutta. op 12-01-2005 19:44 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Does that part explaine sankhara, the second link of paticcasamuppada. > The message is clear. But may I extend it? > > For arahats what happen to those links avijja and sankhara and > vinnana. > > Obviously they do not have avijjana. But they do have vinnana. What > is the middle in between them? 41067 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:55am Subject: Pilgrimage India 2 b Pilgrimage India 2 b Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black curtain, they prevent us from seeing realities as they are. When we see, it always seems that we see people and things, whereas in reality only visible object can impinge on the eyesense. We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but when there is awareness and understanding we are on the island of Dhamma, the island of satipatthåna. We read in the Parinibbåna Sutta (Wheel Publication, 67-69) that the Buddha spoke about his old age, and exhorted Ånanda: ³Therefore, Ånanda, be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge... And how, Ånanda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself...? When he dwells contemplating body in the body...feeling in the feelings... mind in the mind...mental objects in the mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Teaching as his island and refuge, seeking no other refuge.² Satipatthåna is the development of understanding of all physical phenomena and mental phenomena that appear, for the purpose of realizing them as non-self. Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls away immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, but because of saññå, remembrance of former experiences, we think of people and things and these seem to last. This is wrong remembrance of self, attå-saññå. Through the development of right understanding we come to understand what anattå-saññå, the perception of non-self, means. ***** NIna. 41068 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, I shall think a bit more over the answers to your questions. Meanwhile, I found good material on the conditions for the bojjhangas: Soma Thera, Co. to the satipatthanasutta. Do you have it? Larry used to guide us through the whole work and maybe he can help you where to find it on line. I always try to find connections. Such as: what are the common factors that condition the different factors of enlightenment. I came across right association, right friendship. I try to find out in how far they are developed together, or to what extent are they developed in groups. The conditions for them will tell me more. When you have the text you could look as well. op 17-01-2005 17:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: >> N: >> Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up >> (vu.t.thaana) to magga. 41069 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad Hey Tep, > I like your brief answer a lot. Yes, it sure makes sense that the 4th step of the 1st tetrad results in calming the kaya-sankhara. Yes, piti is present in both the 1st tetrad and the early part of the 2nd tetrad, but the piti in the second tetrad (vedananupassana) does not connect with the breathing. It is all co-arrising. We are going from the gross to the subtle. By calming the breathing and therefore the body, piti appears. When it appears, you shift focus to it as an object. You dont stop breathing at this time as piti would evaporate. That is, if there is a sudden change to the body the piti would disappear. You have to have a fair degree of concentration for piti to arrise and stabalize enough to see it as an 'object' and not a fleeting feeling. Otherwise, you could not investigate it adequately and move on to sukha etc. And it is true that in the 3rd tetrad (cittanupassana ) the focus > is on the mind, but how do you explain that the 'delight' here is not the > same as 'citta sankhara' (which is supposed to calm down until > disappearing by the 4th step of the 2nd tetrad)? Both are citta-sankhara. But the frame of reference is shifted from vedana to mind. The reference itself is getting more subtle and the objects also. We can say that we are getting closer to consciousness itself almost devoid of an object or the object is very fine. First we calmed the body then the feelings associated with a calm body. What is left? Kel says that there are > several levels of piti, including the piti-sambojjhanga, but it is not completely clear to me. Can you elaborate further on the things > called 'delight' and 'piti' when they are mind-based, and when they are not ? Again, they are all 'mind' based. There is piti associated or arrising with a calm body. There is delight when the hindrances are in abeyance and one finds a delight in mind itself. All of this was experiential for me, I later turned to the Satipatthana and Anapanasati suttas to make sense of my experiences. I was a devoted meditator first and a student second. > Thank you for joining us. My pleasure! PEACE E 41070 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad Hi there, E(ric) - Your answers to the questions I asked, concerning Piti, are flawless. I am happy to know that you have the experience to back up the answers, not simply through intelligent interpretations. Extremely smart people can guess many things correctly (such as the stock market behaviors and, sometimes, political outcomes), but I doubt if they ever would be able to guess what the upekkha in the 4th rupa jhana is like. Thank you very much for the clarification. The 'co-arising' nature of the jhanic factors and the lingering piti (continuity), after the 4th step of the 2nd tetrad, make sense. Now I will have to verify it all by 'doing'. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Hey Tep, > >> It is all co-arrising. We are going from the > gross to the subtle. By calming the breathing > and therefore the body, piti appears. When it > appears, you shift focus to it as an object. > You dont stop breathing at this time as > piti would evaporate. That is, if there is a sudden > change to the body the piti would disappear. > You have to have a fair degree of concentration > for piti to arrise and stabalize enough to see > it as an 'object' and not a fleeting feeling. > Otherwise, you could not investigate it adequately > and move on to sukha etc. > > > Both are citta-sankhara. But the frame of reference > is shifted from vedana to mind. The reference itself > is getting more subtle and the objects also. We can > say that we are getting closer to consciousness itself > almost devoid of an object or the object is very fine. > First we calmed the body then the feelings associated > with a calm body. What is left? > > Again, they are all 'mind' based. There is piti > associated or arrising with a calm body. There > is delight when the hindrances are in abeyance > and one finds a delight in mind itself. All of > this was experiential for me, I later turned > to the Satipatthana and Anapanasati suttas to make > sense of my experiences. I was a devoted meditator > first and a student second. > > > Thank you for joining us. > > My pleasure! > > PEACE > > E 41071 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Htoo Dear Htoo - You said in the beginning of message #41064: > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your full answers. I appreciate your research, your quotes, and your understanding on Dhamma. Here I responded your > answers, which may be agreeing, adding, or may be some different views. Tep's reply: I am pleased that you see values in discussing the 7 questions and answers, and I also am surprised to see such a lengthy reply from you this time. Htoo: >For this portion, I will be looking forward to hearing the answer > to ''Question:what do you mean by 'when a sense contact arises'? '' Tep: I was referring to the experience of the vipassana meditator who uses 'bare attention' as a tool for training mindfulness of the contact (phassa) sensations which accompany the rise-and-fall of abdomen or in-and-out breaths. For example, "In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the yogi can note them when they occur. Body impressions, however, are ever present. They usually exist distinctly all the time. During the time that one is sitting, the body impression of stiffness or the sensation of hardness in this position is distinctly felt. Attention should therefore be fixed on the sitting posture and a note made as 'sitting, sitting, sitting.' " Satipatthana Vipassana, Insight through Mindfulness by The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw The Wheel Publication No. 370/371 ISBN 955-24-0078-3 Htoo's comment: > I do not agree on 'thought formations are not real'. Tep, why do you say they are not real? Is it because of our > terminology? >What I know is 'thought formations' or 'mental fabrications' or 'citta- sankhara' or '50 cetasikas' after leaving vedana and sanna >cetasikas who are separate khandhas are all real. They are paramattha dhamma. > Question: Why should they be not real? Tep: It is true that citta-sankhara is a reality in the Paramattha-dhamma sense. Yes, according to the Abhidhamma books, sankhara khandha is a reality. However, I have been using vohara-sacca, a panatti, that has been used by every teacher of the Dhamma in the normal communication mode. Because of not knowing and not seeing the khandhas and ayatanas the way they really are, the resulting thought formation in a worldling is not to be trusted as a "truth", as they actually are deluded with defilements (including avijja). And because of that, I mean "not real" = not truthful, not actually happening. For example, a visible rupa(real) being seen by the eyes and what we think we're seeing (faked by our imaginations and labeling) are not the same. What we think we have seen is a mental fabrication: a labeled object (good, bad, beautiful, etc.) that is not the reality. Thank you for the useful discussion. I hope you will also read the answers taken from Upasika Kee's article ("Reading the Mind") as well; it is a classic. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > 41073 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:55pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Tep Questions to Kel: > > 1.Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 1st > jhana? > > 2.Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 4th > jhana? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Kel's Answers. > > Quick answer: all and none. You can look at how the expansion of > 89 type of consciousness to get 121. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep and Kel, > > Very good discussion and superb answer. Yes, the answer to each > question is all of 4 stages. And again the answer to each question is > none of 4 stages. > Tep: Htoo, I thought Kel meant the following: 1) All 4 Ariya levels can't be achieved without the 1st jhana: the same as saying that they must master at least the 1st jhana. 2) None of the 4 Ariya levels can't be achieved without the 4th jhana: the same as saying that none of them have to attain the 4th jhana. If I understood Kel correctly, then he said that in order to become an Ariya (even the Sotapanna) you had to master at least the first jhana, but even the Arahat does not need to master the fourth jhana. But I am not so sure because I believe that all rupa- and arupa-jhanas must be mastered by the Anagami and Arahat. What do you say, Kel? Htoo, by the way, how can both 'all' and 'none' be true at the same time for each situation? Htoo: > As long as there is no hindrance javana cittas are the same in terms of concentration or tranquility. > That is 'not achieving any jhanas but just with upacara samadhi' and > n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana are the same. > The only difference is number of jhana factors and state of > absorption. Tep: The above explanation flew over my head, Htoo. Could you please simplify it for me? Htoo: > What matter in the whole path leading to nibbana including pre-NEP > path is panna or wisdom. Without panna or wisdom any of magga nana will not be achieved. That is why bare attention does not work > (I may respond this at dhammasukha site later). > Tep: The above comment is clear. Thank you. Kindest regards, Tep ======= 41074 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hey Tep, > Htoo, by the way, how can both 'all' and 'none' be true at the same > time for each situation? Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows. --Nisargadatta Maharaj. 41075 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Dear Tep, Nina, Htoo, Larry (and all) Good thread, Tep. I think the answers to the seven questions has enriched my understanding. The quote of Kee Nanayon connected to question #5 raised a new question to me. "Ultimately, you'll see that there's nothing at all -- just the arising and disbanding occurring every moment in emptiness." My question is: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN THERAVADA ? In Mahayana "sunyata" is very important, in some traditions the most important principle. Nagarjuna: "whatever is dependently arisen, that is explained to be emptiness" Nyatiloka (below) associates is with 'anatta' but I got the impression in this quote Kee Nanyon associates it with impermanence (anicca). This is the way I experience it too: a dhamma aries out from the emptiness and disappears back in it. Ajahn Buddhadasa has written about it, Upasika Kee Nanayon too (in "Emptiness vs the Void"); and Thanissaro Bhikkhu (but rather silly in my opinion so I don't know if it is really an important concept) Metta Joop Nyatiloka in his 'Buddhist Dictionary': suñña (adj.), suññatá (noun): void (ness), empty (emptiness). As a doctrinal term it refers, in Theraváda, exclusively to the anattá doctrine,.i.e. the unsubstantiality of all phenomena: "Void is the world ... because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self" (suññam attena vá attaniyena vá; S. XXXV, 85); also stated of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) in the same text. See also M. 43, M. 106. - In CNidd. (quoted in Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind- consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." - In M. 121, the voiding of the mind of the cankers, in the attainment of Arahatship, is regarded as the "fully purified and incomparably highest (concept of) voidness. - See Sn. v. 1119; M. 121; M. 122 (WHEEL 87); Pts.M. II: Suñña-kathá; Vis.M. XXI, 53ff. 41076 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:33pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Tep, > If I understood Kel correctly, then he said that in order to become an > Ariya (even the Sotapanna) you had to master at least the first jhana, > but even the Arahat does not need to master the fourth jhana. Kel: Yes that's what I said except I didn't include mastery. First jhana quality mind is one that has the 5 cetasikas that is characterstic of first jhana. Mastery sorta implies absorption in the jhana itself which is a separate training. > not so sure because I believe that all rupa- and arupa-jhanas must be > mastered by the Anagami and Arahat. What do you say, Kel? Kel: Nope, dry-insight arahats would not have any jhanas. Doesn't mean they can't practice jhanas once they're arahats however. Mastery of the jhanas is what separates arahats into chief disciples, main disciples or ordinary disciples. Lack of jhanas would only impact whether or not one can attain nirodha samapatti. They can enjoy their perspective phala just fine, though mastery of it is very similar to jhana absorptions. > > As long as there is no hindrance javana cittas are the same in terms > of concentration or tranquility. > > That is 'not achieving any jhanas but just with upacara samadhi' and > > n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana are the same. > > The only difference is number of jhana factors and state of > > absorption. > > Tep: > > The above explanation flew over my head, Htoo. Could you please > simplify it for me? Kel: He's saying highest arupa jhana and access concentration have the same level of concentration or tranquility. They're just different in the number of cetasikas that appear in the citta. I'm not sure if I would agree with that because higher jhanas have better tranquility precisely by eliminating gross factors in succession. The bottom line is though, the MINIMIUM concentration required for magga-citta is first jhana. Here we define first jhana as momentary, access and absorption concentrations. - kel 41077 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Hi, Joop and all - In a message dated 1/17/05 5:31:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: > Dear Tep, Nina, Htoo, Larry (and all) > > Good thread, Tep. I think the answers to the seven questions has > enriched my understanding. > The quote of Kee Nanayon connected to question #5 raised a new > question to me. > "Ultimately, you'll see that there's nothing at all -- just the > arising and disbanding occurring every moment in emptiness." > > My question is: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN > THERAVADA ? > > In Mahayana "sunyata" is very important, in some traditions the most > important principle. > Nagarjuna: "whatever is dependently arisen, that is explained to be > emptiness" > > Nyatiloka (below) associates is with 'anatta' but I got the > impression in this quote Kee Nanyon associates it with impermanence > (anicca). > ----------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, dependent origination (and cessation) involves both anatta and anicca, and it is synonymous with emptiness as regards sankhata dhammas. (The emptiness of nibbana is something else, however, and I'm not very sure what exactly. After all, nibbana is beyond conventional description except in so far as an inadequate "pointing to it" is concerned.) ---------------------------------------- This is the way I experience it too: a dhamma aries out > > from the emptiness and disappears back in it. --------------------------------------- Howard: Joop, I tend to think that the notion of an "emptiness" out of which dhammas arise and then disappear into amounts to a reification of emptiness. There is no "thing" that is emptiness. There is just the fact that all dhammas are devoid of self-existent core, of "self", of own-being. There is just the fact that nothing exists apart from everything else, independent. The primary notion of emptiness in Theravada, as far as the actual term 'su~n~na' used, is that nothing, anywhere, can properly be construed as "me" or "mine". In that sense, 'su~n~na' is synonymous with "impersonal". However, the Mahayana notion of emptiness, i.e. of insubstantiality and dependency, is also basic to Theravada, though not always referred to as 'su~n~nata'. That sense of emptiness can be found, for example, in the Uraga Sutta of the Sutta Nipata and also in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya. ------------------------------------------------ > > Ajahn Buddhadasa has written about it, Upasika Kee Nanayon too > (in "Emptiness vs the Void"); and Thanissaro Bhikkhu (but rather > silly in my opinion so I don't know if it is really an important > concept) > > Metta > > Joop > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41078 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Hi Joop, > My question is: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN > THERAVADA ? Kel: Technically it is associated with anatta. There are fourty modes of contemplating phenomena. Anicca: as impermanent, as disintegrating, as fickle, as perishable, as unenduring, as subject to change, as having no core, as due to be annihilated, as formed, as subject to death. (10) Dukkha: as painful, as a disease, a boil, a dart, a calamity, an afflicition, as a plague, a disaster, a terror, a menace, as no protection, no shelter, no refuge, as a danger, as the root of calamity, as murderous, as subject to cankers, as mara's bait, as subject to birth, subject to ageing, subject to illness, subject so sorrow, subject to lamentation, subject to despair, subject to defilement. (25) Anatta: as alient, as empty, as vain, as void, as not-self. (5) > In Mahayana "sunyata" is very important, in some traditions > the most important principle. Kel: I think it's just a preference a particular tradition has acquired. In Burma too some really like anicca and some anatta. There's even some that contemplate dukkha of food and body as an example. Some DSG members are rather into anatta :) And then one gets into explaining and expounding everything based on that preference. > (anicca). This is the way I experience it too: a dhamma aries out > from the emptiness and disappears back in it. Kel: Perfectly okay. When you truly understand anicca, you understand anatta. Because everything is changing how can there be a core or soul that is permanent. Even if you want to be attached, there's nothing there to be attached to. From my experience at least, it was very obvious "conclusion" from contemplation anicca. Ledi sayadaw also says anicca and anatta are equivalent, understanding one leads to the other and vice veras. There are different modes of seeing and understanding things because we all think differently. One mode will be more natural to someone compared to another mode. - kel 41079 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' of dhamma Dear Dhamma Friends, This is an announcement that Patthana Dhamma Page 63 is now ready to serve for Dhamma friends. It is about samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' of dhamma. Page 62 is about anantara paccaya or 'proximity condition' of dhamma. Patthana Dhamma pages are still ongoing and it starts from Patthana Dhamma Page 1, which is the introductory page and it is on paramattha dhamma or ultimate realities. Paramattha dhamma or ultimate realities are essential basic dhamma to understand Patthana Dhamma. Even though Patthana Dhamma is complex and complicated, they are presented in these pages as simple as possible. If we can apply Patthana Dhamma in our daily life it will be much more valuable than studying scholastically. In actual sense Patthana Dhamma can be applied in daily life. Introductory page is at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html and it starts with explanation on basic dhamma such as citta, cetasika, rupa etc etc and then each citta, each cetasika is explained each in turn. Page 59, 60, 61 and 61 are also available. So far hetu paccaya or 'root condition' of dhamma, arammana paccaya or 'object condition' of dhamma, adhipati paccaya or 'predominance condition' of dhamma, anantara paccaya or 'proximity condition' of dhamma have been explained. Currently samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' of dhammas are being explained. Samanantara paccaya can be viewed at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana63.html . Any comment, any contribution, any suggestion, any further information are welcome and they will be beneficial. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41080 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- the cycle and the arahat, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I try to answer. The arahat is no longer subject to the cycle, but for him: > no more avijjaa, no more abhisankhara. There is still vipaaka that is the > result of former kamma, committed before he was an arahat. This does not > mean that he is still subject to the cycle of birth and death. > See Samyutta Nikaya II, Upanisa Sutta. > op 12-01-2005 19:44 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Does that part explaine sankhara, the second link of paticcasamuppada. > > The message is clear. But may I extend it? > > > > For arahats what happen to those links avijja and sankhara and > > vinnana. > > > > Obviously they do not have avijjana. But they do have vinnana. What > > is the middle in between them? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your clear answer. I had to ask because some say that the cycle or the wheel is still rotating with remaining links. I smiled when I saw that sort of message. May I ask you a few questions regarding the same matter on Dependent Origination? What is moment to moment D.O? Does that exist in teaching? If yes, what about of arahats? With much respect, Htoo Naing 41081 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas > Kel: He's saying highest arupa jhana and access concentration > have the same level of concentration or tranquility. They're just > different in the number of cetasikas that appear in the citta. I'm > not sure if I would agree with that because higher jhanas have > better tranquility precisely by eliminating gross factors in > succession. The bottom line is though, the MINIMIUM concentration > required for magga-citta is first jhana. Here we define first jhana > as momentary, access and absorption concentrations. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, A question for you. Can all phalatthana puggala without jhanas or can all ariyas without any jhanas practise phala-samapatti? With respect, Htoo Naing 41082 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Htoo Dear Dhamma Friends, More discussion on this thread 'test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma'. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Tep's reply: I am pleased that you see values in discussing the 7 questions and answers, and I also am surprised to see such a lengthy reply from you this time. >Htoo: > >For this portion, I will be looking forward to hearing the answer > > to ''Question:what do you mean by 'when a sense contact arises'? '' Tep: I was referring to the experience of the vipassana meditator who uses 'bare attention' as a tool for training mindfulness of the contact (phassa) sensations which accompany the rise-and-fall of abdomen or in-and-out breaths. For example, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree 100% here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: "In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the yogi can note them when they occur. Body impressions, however, are ever present. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Tep, do you mean the object for body-consciousness is ever present or present all the time? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's continued: They usually exist distinctly all the time. During the time that one is sitting, the body impression of stiffness or the sensation of hardness in this position is distinctly felt. Attention should therefore be fixed on the sitting posture and a note made as 'sitting, sitting, sitting.' " ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree with 'distinctly felt'. But I do not agree if you mean 'the object for body-consciousness' is present all the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Satipatthana Vipassana, Insight through Mindfulness > by The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw > The Wheel Publication No. 370/371 ISBN 955-24-0078-3 > > Htoo's comment: > > > I do not agree on 'thought formations are not real'. Tep, why do you > say they are not real? Is it because of our > > terminology? > > >What I know is 'thought formations' or 'mental fabrications' or 'citta- > sankhara' or '50 cetasikas' after leaving vedana and sanna > >cetasikas who are separate khandhas are all real. They are > paramattha dhamma. > > > Question: Why should they be not real? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: Tep: It is true that citta-sankhara is a reality in the Paramattha-dhamma sense. Yes, according to the Abhidhamma books, sankhara khandha is a reality. However, I have been using vohara-sacca, a panatti, that has been used by every teacher of the Dhamma in the normal communication mode. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree 'vohara'. I already included that 'is that because of terminology?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: Because of not knowing and not seeing the khandhas and ayatanas the way they really are, the resulting thought formation in a worldling is not to be trusted as a "truth", as they actually are deluded with defilements (including avijja). And because of that, I mean "not real" = not truthful, not actually happening. For example, a visible rupa(real) being seen by the eyes and what we think we're seeing (faked by our imaginations and labeling) are not the same. What we think we have seen is a mental fabrication: a labeled object (good, bad, beautiful, etc.) that is not the reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: Thank you for the useful discussion. I hope you will also read the answers taken from Upasika Kee's article ("Reading the Mind") as well; it is a classic. Kind regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma is for all. Dhamma is for those who take refuge in. With respect, Htoo Naing 41083 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep and Nina, Here's the link to the Satipatthana Sutta and Commentary: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Larry ------------------------- Nina: "Meanwhile, I found good material on the conditions for the bojjhangas: Soma Thera, Co. to the satipatthanasutta. Do you have it?" 41084 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Htoo, > Can all phalatthana puggala without jhanas or can all ariyas without > any jhanas practise phala-samapatti? Yes, Mahasi Sayadaw goes somewhat into detail about it. For sotapanna, most aren't even aware they achieved it so they don't try to go into phala-samapatti. Even while walking, they can enter phala-samapatti as samadhi improves "accidently". He talks about how one's strength in samadhi is the determining factor. Along with Visuddhimagga explanation on mastery of jhanas, I took it as a matter of practice in mastery of the mind. As you know, there are five kinds of mastery. Since they're so similar I believe it is the same training, just a difference in object. So one might argue an ariya who can achieve phala-samapatti with full mastery will have no trouble achieving jhana-samapatti. Or conversely a puthujjana who has previously mastered jhana-samapatti will have no trouble with phala-samapatti once they become an ariya. - kel 41085 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hey E(ric) - > Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And > between the two my life flows. --Nisargadatta Maharaj. That is a great answer to my question! BTW, who was Nisargadatta Maharaj? Why did he say that? Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Hey Tep, > > > Htoo, by the way, how can both 'all' and 'none' be true at the same > > time for each situation? > > Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And > between the two my life flows. --Nisargadatta Maharaj. 41086 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:28pm Subject: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [THE FORMATIONS AGGREGATE] 131. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating.57 What is that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' (S.iii,87). ------------------------------ Note 57. ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). 41087 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:30pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Kel, I found a passage that tells all phalatthana puggalas can attain phala-samapatti. You well explain on that. Yes, I have heard of that some even did not know that they achieve sotapatti magga nana and they may never practise or stay in sotapatti-phala-samapati as they do not know that they are sotapams. Sotapams are no doubt completely take refuge in triplegem and their saddha can never be shaken by any means. They may let their life but not their saddha in triplegem. This is because of total absence of vicikiccha cetasika and so vicikiccha citta. I have some points to discuss. Please see below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel wrote: Hi Htoo, > > Can all phalatthana puggala without jhanas or can all ariyas > without > > any jhanas practise phala-samapatti? Kel answered: Yes, Mahasi Sayadaw goes somewhat into detail about it. For sotapanna, most aren't even aware they achieved it so they don't try to go into phala-samapatti. Even while walking, they can enter phala-samapatti as samadhi improves "accidently". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. But I think samapatti needs to be defined. My questions: 1. Is it possible to arise a single phala citta? 2. If so can it be called as phala-samapatti? 3. How do you define phala-samapatti in terms of number of phala- javana citta? [kama javana usually takes 7 moments.] 4.How many moments are needed to call phala-samapatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel continued: He talks about how one's strength in samadhi is the determining factor. Along with Visuddhimagga explanation on mastery of jhanas, I took it as a matter of practice in mastery of the mind. As you know, there are five kinds of mastery. Since they're so similar I believe it is the same training, just a difference in object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Excuse me. Do you mean 'they' here for 'jhana and vipassana'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel continued: So one might argue an ariya who can achieve phala-samapatti with full mastery will have no trouble achieving jhana-samapatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I would say 'just mastery in phala-samapatti' is not equitable with mastery in jhana. Phala beings may stay in phala but they cannot stay in jhanas if they have not attained jhana. Questions: 1.Do arahats try to obtain previously unattained jhanas to obtain after they become arahats? 2.Do arahats who previously do not have abhinna try to obtain abhinna after they attain arahatta magga nana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel continued: Or conversely a puthujjana who has previously mastered jhana- samapatti will have no trouble with phala-samapatti once they become an ariya. - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree completely this message. Nina said for phala-samapatti to happen jhana is a part and ariyas without jhana cannot do phala- samapatti. If I said wrong, please correct me Nina. It sounds right. I do not know. To be able to say such matter I will have to be an arahat without any jhanas. But I am not an ariya yet. So I do not know phala-samapatti can happen in beings without jhana. The logic may be this : phala javanas are great and very powerful. Jhana-samapatti happen without any interruption while in jhana- samapatti. Like this phala-samapatti do not have any interruption between phala cittas. Phala cittas can arise limitlessly while in phala-samapatti. They is why I ask you to define phala-samapatti. If it is right that 50 or 100 phala cittas can be called as phala-samapatti then sotapams who are walking may well attain phala-samapatti. With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: 1.I have to overcome 1. Burmese language or Myanmar language 2. Pali language 3. Difficulty and depth of Dhamma 4. English language 5. Practical aspect of Dhamma 2. Nina, please correct me what I mentioned was wrong regarding your thought on phala-samapatti and jhana. 41088 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:30pm Subject: Vism.XIV,131 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [THE FORMATIONS AGGREGATE] 131. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating.57 What is that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' (S.iii,87). ------------------------------ Note 57. ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). 41089 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness In a message dated 1/17/2005 2:31:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: My question is: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN THERAVADA ? “…because it is empty of self and what belongs to self that it is said, ‘ Empty is the world.’â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discoursesof the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1163) TG 41090 From: Andrew Levin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Didnt mean to take so long to reply, Sarah, I am still a little bit 'out of it' for personal reasons, I have not been able to continue studying ACM as I earlier was.. I hope I am still making sense and in one piece for the time being. > …. > >And I guess I > > would then ask you, since I am not that competant in Abhidharma, where > > does seeing the three characteristics fit into the bigger picture of > > things? Is it that they are understood initially only superficially, > > but later, near the end of the path, impressed deeply upon the mind? > … > S: Yes. Any understanding has to develop from the superficial to the deep. > It is by firstly undersgtanding namas and rupas as dhammas only and as > distinct from each other, that deeper understanding, such as the > impermanence of such dhammas, can later develop. > …. > > If it is motivated by an idea of self, it still seems OK to me as it > > will bring one to view the true nature of realities, and eventually > > get past self-belief (that the insight knowledges arise from the four > > foundations of mindfulness was only made clear to me later, this was a > > major stumbling block for me). > … > S: Moments with self view (wrong view) will not bring any right view of > realities. So we have to distinguish between the two from the beginning. So is self view necessarily wrong view, that is, it comprises wrong view with whatever type of citta there is? If so I still think we can practise this as a psycho-physical organism, that is, without wrong view, the factors then being, what degree of different qualities can be cultivated or brought into being - and which cannot, but depend on unchangeable conditions (I would say sati is one we can cultivate) > ….. > > So why did the Buddha even tell his disciples to practise these four > > foundations of mindfulness in such a specific manner for such a > > specific period of time? The practise outlined will clearly lead to > > whatever is necessary for liberating the mind. > … > S: The Buddha described all realities, all causes and results. IF > awareness of realities is developed with right understanding, then it will > lead to liberation. This is not the same as saying `Self, do it!' (See Ken > H's recent comments to Kel on the same theme: "In this Dhamma there is no > self who practices, there are only disinterested, momentary conditioned > phenomena. Learning about nama and rupa without worrying about `my' nama > and `my' rupa is the way to go.") He also described on the conventional level how a person, could practise these exercises geared towards understanding, as a whole, certainly not to note each arising phenomenon as 'mine,' but it seems that a person could develop mindfulness and so on, of these realities, and attend to them properly, that is, even as their belief of 'self' seemed to decrease. The argument is, I suppose, that one can work from a 'control center' (speicifcally, as one, as a person) even if there is no special belief that the work or the worked on is 'self,' to develop the qualities needed to untie the mind from what keeps it in bondage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're trying to have view of one nama or rupa at a time, you still think of yourself as a 'person,' or 'Sarah Abbott' that goes through day to day recognizing one nama, one rupa. Similarly I think I can get to understand how the four foundations of mindfulness are properly practised, and practise them. I don't see why this can't be practised with 'right view' that there is no self if this is to be understood. Maybe you could describe exactly what wrong view of self is, if you still disagree. > … > S:>>The most > > > important aspect of development or practice is the understanding and > > > eradication of the wrong idea of self. > > > A:> Isn't that only one of the ten fetters to be abandoned? Why should it > > be given highest priority? > … > S: Yes, but self-view (and other wrong views) have to be eradicated > first. That's why it's only a sotapanna that keeps the precepts perfectly, > doesn't follow wrong practices and so on. OK, now talk to me on a level of how you start out with wrong view of self, what this is superficially at the top level, and how you get down to eliminating it as a fetter completely. > > "And here wrong-view clinging and so on are abandoned first because they > are eliminated by the path of StreamEntry; sense-desire clinging is > abandoned later because it is eliminated by the path of Arahatship. This > is the order of their abandoning…" Dispeller 850 > … > > And even if not, can't we start with wrong view of self to practise > > what will show is there is no self?? > …. > S: Wrong view and self view based moments of practice will never see > they're wrong. It is only right view that will see it. So that's why > there has to be awareness of wrong view and self view when they arise. OK. > …. > > Hearing being a khandha where khanda == skhandhas == five aggregates? > > Certainly it's something that can be contemplated but I don't see > > hearing being one- > …. > S: Hearing is a citta (consciousness). Citta here is a synonym for vinnana > as in vinnana khandha. So hearing, seeing and all other cittas are > included in vinnana khandha. I still don't understand. What is vinnana then? I was under the impression the skhandhas are the five aggregates including material form, perceptions, feelings, volition, and mental formations like emotions and cognition. Is it that hearing-consciousness is part of mental formations? That I could understand. > …. > S:> > Actually, citta `cognizes' an object at every instant, whether or > not > > > there is any awareness. > A:> OK. This is kind of deep. I don't understand how citta can know other > > citta (:: kind of shaky, still having to wait for an occasion when he > > can go through CH I of CMA again before even touching II ::) > … > S: Yes, it is deep. Remember citta arises at every single moment and that > anything (reality or concept) is experienced by it. So when the object is > not a sound or visible object or other sense object experienced through a > sense door, the object can also be a nama - a citta, a cetasika or even > nibbana if conditions are right as well as concepts when we think. Ooh. Makes sense. So citta is the object of citta at moments where there is a lack of hearing, seeing, etc, and the consciousness that adverts it to the appropriate sense door. > > A citta with awareness can only be aware of another citta in the mind-door > process and only that citta which has just fallen away and is still > `fresh'. We call it the present reality still. Don't get hung up on this > for now. It's enough to know that any reality can be the object of > awareness and this can be proved when there is awareness of seeing or > thinking, for example. Man, it's been so long since I've had the sati to be aware of thinking. That kind of sati required hours a day of meditation. I still can use the exercise of 'labeling' - (it would be good if someone could describe to me the point of labeling and its drawbacks compared to other methods towards realization that can be used in its place) thoughts, that is, 'thinking, thinking,' but bare awareness of thoughts is history as far as I'm concerned. Need more sati. > …. > > Another thing. How are realities to be 'known.' It is through > > mindfulness, through understanding, or what? > … > S: By being aware of their characteristics when they are experienced as in > the example I just gave. Awareness is aware of seeing consciousness and > understanding understands it at that moment. It's very important to > understand the characteristic of awareness, otherwise we'll be forever > taking a conventional idea of mindfulness or watching or labeling for > being awareness. Man, I am all for non-conceptual awareness. It's been what is lacking in my life for over a year now. Now what is the characteristic of awareness, what conditions it? I've been able to get a little awareness back with reading a book stating it's necessary to have for mindfulness & full awareness (obviously..), and another book on cultivating mindfulness, but still not at the levels I had when I was *reallY* cultivating sati. > …. > >Because I have had an > > occasion of just slowing things down when it appeared that some of the > > elements and sense bases were coming into view (stuff described in MN > > 8 on right view) but I wouldnt say I had mindfulness. Would that > > still be good? > … > S: It's impossible to slow down cittas, cetasikas and rupas. If one tries > in order to have awareness or mindfulness, this would be an example of > wrong practice as I see it. Not understanding conditioned dhammas. > > As far as I understand, this line of questioning of yours in your last > post is exactly on the right track. I look forward to more. > Well, I've tried (to cultivate it in one session), and had it manifest itself throughout the day, but I'm not sure of this point. It seems like I could have had more knowledge or mindfulness of the parts of the 'chariot' as its functions as a whole began to slow down. But maybe you are right? Peace, A.L. > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 41091 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Nina, What's the difference between asayanusaya and ayuhana? Larry 41092 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi, Larry - You're very good! Thank you for the link to the article by Soma Thera: it will be used as a reference for my discussion with Nina. Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep and Nina, > > Here's the link to the Satipatthana Sutta and Commentary: > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Larry > ------------------------- > Nina: "Meanwhile, I found good material on the conditions for the > bojjhangas: Soma Thera, Co. to the satipatthanasutta. Do you have it?" 41093 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Htoo, > they may never practise or stay in sotapatti-phala-samapati as they > do not know that they are sotapams. Sotapams are no doubt completely > take refuge in triplegem and their saddha can never be shaken by any > means. They may let their life but not their saddha in triplegem. > This is because of total absence of vicikiccha cetasika and so > vicikiccha citta. Kel: yes, of course. It doesn't really matter if they can stay in phala-samapati or not. This is merely a technical discussion. > 1. Is it possible to arise a single phala citta? > 2. If so can it be called as phala-samapatti? > 3. How do you define phala-samapatti in terms of number of phala- > javana citta? [kama javana usually takes 7 moments.] > 4.How many moments are needed to call phala-samapatti? > ------------------------------------------------------------- kel: 1 is no and so 2 is no. I think if we look at the moments in the vithi's, it'll be clear. Reference your dhamma thread 233, 40996. Minimum for normal is: BBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBB Minium for intelligent is: BBBMUAGPhPhPhPhBBB We drop Parikamma and since the total needs to be 7, add one more Ph. As you said javanas needs to be 7. So that's basically a phala- samapatti by definition, not my own. As you can see, the skilled ariyan will be able to extend Ph to long time and end by EXACTLY the amount they want. Unskilled one might be doing this as an example: BBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBBBBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBBBBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBBBBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBB > As you know, there are five kinds of mastery. Since they're so > similar I believe it is the same training, just a difference in > object. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: Excuse me. Do you mean 'they' here for 'jhana and vipassana'? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- kel: they = jhana-samapatti and phala-samapatti. Look at the two vithis, they're the same. Except for jhana, loka object or phala, lokuttara object. Also if you look at magga and phala vithis, they're the same. We just call the first one magga and the rest phala. > Htoo: > > Here I would say 'just mastery in phala-samapatti' is not equitable > with mastery in jhana. Phala beings may stay in phala but they cannot > stay in jhanas if they have not attained jhana. Kel: Being able to stay absorbed is the same skill. It has nothing to do with if they can acquire the required object. Once the main is without much or any defilements, I imagine samadhi wouldn't be that hard. What's there to suppress and preventing nimitas from arising for arahats? > 1.Do arahats try to obtain previously unattained jhanas to obtain > after they become arahats? kel: I read some that they do but I cannot give exact reference. If you think about it, dry-insight arahat's work is not complete. They are content but they cannot realize nibbana right here and now, still have this current body dukkha. That's why they enter niroda- samapatti. Plus just having the jhanas doesn't equal mastery of different kasinas/dhatus and/or abhinnas. You need to practice with everything in forward and backwards order. Even one who practice jhanas could've achieved 5th jhana by using one object. Vis. IV 135, footnote 39. Some versions of the story adds that other bikkhus who all possesses the powers resolve to practice more. At least that's what my memory says :) > 2.Do arahats who previously do not have abhinna try to obtain abhinna > after they attain arahatta magga nana? Kel: same reasoning as above would apply I think. Not every arahat become with one complete superpowers like the main bikkhus along with magga-citta. > Htoo: > > I agree completely this message. Nina said for phala-samapatti to > happen jhana is a part and ariyas without jhana cannot do phala- > samapatti. If I said wrong, please correct me Nina. Kel: I think Mahasi sayadaw's stance is clearly different from that. I'll give you the book name if you want though I'd have to find it around the house. > So I do not know phala-samapatti can happen in beings without jhana. kel: neither do it :P > 1. Burmese language or Myanmar language Kel: It is always easier to discuss Dhamma in Burmese :) - kel 41094 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Actually first time I had heard much about aasaya - when I listened to the tape. Not a correction though as ayuhana means accumulation/accumulating. robk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Rob and Sarah (and Azita), > > Thanks for the corrections. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I > > heard > > > K.Sujin saying, I believe. > > > > > > PTS dict says similar in derivation to anusaya and semantically > > related. > > > Inclination etc; often combined and compared with anusaya > > (inclination, > > > hankering, disposition)see Vbh 340 and other refs given. When it is > > > combined with anusaya, I believe aasaya refers to only good latent > > > tendencies. > 41095 From: mnease Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Thanks Robert, Right--so many of these synonyms or near-synonyms seem to have different meanings depending on context--method, classification etc.--e.g. Htoo's recent moha vs. avijja, which I found very interesting. So helpful to have friends with knowledge of abhidhamma AND Paali to help to sort these out. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. > > Actually first time I had heard much about aasaya - when I listened > to the tape. Not a correction though as ayuhana means > accumulation/accumulating. > robk > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > > Hi Rob and Sarah (and Azita), > > > > Thanks for the corrections. > > > > mike 41096 From: seisen_au Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Hi Sarah, Htoo, Nina and All Thanks for your posts, they have been very helpful. I will do some more study on 'decisive support condition' and get back to you if/when i have any more questions regarding avijja paccaya kusala sankhara. Thanks Steve 41097 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 0:17am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 100- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (l) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** As we have seen, cetanå which is kusala kamma or akusala kamma can produce vipåka. Time and again there are pleasant or unpleasant experiences through the senses and these are vipåkacittas: we see, hear, smell, taste or experience through the bodysense pleasant or unpleasant objects. We may know in theory that vipåkacittas are cittas which are result, different from kusala cittas and akusala cittas, but theoretical knowledge is not enough. We should learn to distinguish different types of citta when they appear. Each situation in life consists of many different moments which arise because of different types of conditions. For example, when we hurt ourselves because of an accident, there is an unpleasant experience through the bodysense which is vipåka, but the moments of vipåka fall away immediately and very shortly afterwards aversion is bound to arise. It is difficult to distinguish the moment of vipåka from the moment of akusala citta; cittas succeed one another very rapidly. When we think: 'This is vipåka', the moments of vipåka have fallen away already, and the cittas which think are either kusala or akusala. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41098 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Dear Howard, Kel, TG (and all) My question was: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN THERAVADA ? Although your answers (in # 41077, # 41048 and # 41089) were not exactly the same, it's more clear to me. >> In Mahayana "sunyata" is very important, in some traditions the most important principle. Kel: I think it's just a preference a particular tradition has acquired. > In Burma too some really like anicca and some anatta. > There's even some that contemplate dukkha of food and > body as an example. Some DSG members are rather into anatta :) > And then one gets into explaining and expounding everything based on that preference. Joop: That sounds as a good explanation to me. There is some difference between you (and some other DSG members) and me: You are coming from Burma, from a buddhist tradition; I am living in a non-buddhist culture in Western Europe, converted myself, and had in that conversion a lot of traditions and aspects of traditions from which I could choose. Perhaps not a really free choice, my personality does play a role in it. I never had a big ego so the dichotomy atta - anatta doesn't play an important role in my contemplations. So when you say "it's just a preference a particular tradition has acquired", I say: for somebody raised in a non-buddhist tradition it's a personel preference, with the dangers of the unconscious motives of that choice. To make a unscientific remark: people fighting against their strong ego prefer anatta aspects of emptiness, people fighting against a need of ontology prefer anicca aspects of emptiness. So to 'empty of self' as TG quotes, I say: of course; but also 'empty of not-self' ? "He (Avalokitesvara) perceived that all five skandhas are empty" (Heart Sutra). Howard, you are right in pointing to the risk of my "reification of emptiness" and I will read the suttus you mentioned (Uraga Sutta and Kaccayanagotta Sutta) Metta Joop 41099 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:45am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Kel, Thanks for your kind explanation and replies. Here is just a few points and this is like MCQ or Quiz. > > 1. Is it possible to arise a single phala citta? > > 2. If so can it be called as phala-samapatti? > > 3. How do you define phala-samapatti in terms of number of phala- > > javana citta? [kama javana usually takes 7 moments.] > > 4.How many moments are needed to call phala-samapatti? ------------------------------------------------------------- kel: 1 is no and so 2 is no. I think if we look at the moments in the vithi's, it'll be clear. Reference your dhamma thread 233, 40996. Minimum for normal is: BBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBB Minium for intelligent is: BBBMUAGPhPhPhPhBBB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 1 can be yes. That is 'It is possible to arise a single phala citta'. This can be seen when arahats exit from nirodha-samapatti. 1stJ.B.2J.B.3.B.4.B.1stAJ.B.2AJ.B.3AJ.B.Adhi.NN__Nirodha-samapatti___- -- ____Nirodha-samapatti____|Phala.BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. There is a single phala citta at the exit from nirodha-samapatti. Generally the answer to 1 is no, I accept. 2 is obviously no. Because that single phala citta is not like the vithi you explained. Again if one argues that 'is it reaching to phala?', it may still be yes even though it is not in accord with phala-samapatti and it is just part of nirodha-samapatti. Your answer 3 is OK. Answer 4 says for Mandha-pannaka 3 phala cittas and for Tikkha-pannaka 4 phala cittas are required. According to your example it is possible to attain phala-samapatti in non-jhanalabhis. That means 4 phala cittas in a vithi vara then followed by a few bhavanga cittas and again another phala vithi vara and so on. So it is obvious that they cannot apply phala as in case of jhana- samapatti. That is BBBMPUAGPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP B = bhavanga citta M = manodvaravajjana citta P = parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta ( 1st P ) U = upacara kamavacara mahakusala citta A = anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta G = gotrabhu lineage-changing kamavacara mahakusala citta P = phala citta ( 2nd and later P's ) So it is I think as you said this is just technical. By such definition of 'uninterruptedness' Those arahats who do not have jhana cannot practise phala-samapatti. Actually they have done their job and they do not need to worry the matter of phala-samapatti. By definition based on 'touching' 'reaching' 'being in a state' all 4 ariyas who do not have any rupavacara rupa jhanas or arupavacara arupa jhanas can stay in phala-samapatti. I accept that all these are just technical. By definition based on uninterruptedness there are 3 samapattis and I have discussed them in Dhamma Threads. They are 1. jhana-samapatti BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ---> 2. phala-samapatti BBBMPUAGPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP---> 3. nirodha-samapatti KJ.B.1RJ.B.2RJ.B.3RJ.B.4RJ.B.1AJ.B.2AJ.b.3AJ.B.Adh. ...Adh.NN|___________--->_____________________________|PBBBBBBBBBBBB In all these 3 samapatti ' ---> ' indicate 'uninterruptedness and unlimited'. In the first that is in jhana-samapatti the uninterruptedness is 'of jhana citta' and in the 2nd that is phala-samapatti it is 'of phala citta' and in 3rd samapatti or nirodha-samapatti it is of 'voidness of namakkhandhas'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Nina I think you are right. 41100 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Htoo, Nina and All > Thanks for your posts, they have been very helpful. I will do some > more study on 'decisive support condition' and get back to you > if/when i have any more questions regarding avijja paccaya kusala > sankhara. > > Thanks > Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Steve, I have been composing discussions on patthana dhamma at my geocities web site. I have already announced it. The site is www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html for page 1 and patthana2.html for page 2 and so on. Page 63 is ready to serve there. So far, hetu paccaya or 'root condition', arammana paccaya or 'object condition', adhipati paccaya or 'predominance condition', anantara paccaya or 'proximity condition, and currently samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' are being discussed. Upanissaya paccaya or 'decisive support condition' which is 9th in the 24 paccayas will be discussing later. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41101 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (238) Dear Dhamma Friends, Asannisatta are rupa brahma. Rupa here means 'physical materials' and it is fine materials in that fine material realm called brahma. Brahmas are a kind of deva or celestial beings. There are 6 simple deva realms, 16 fine-material deva realms or rupa brahma realms, and 4 immaterial realms or 4 immaterial deva realms or 4 immaterail brahma realm. Among them 'asanniattas' are breahm in rupa brahma realm. It is 4th jhana bhumi. Asannisatta is made up of 'asanni' and 'satta'. Satta means 'being'. Sanna means perception. Asanna means 'without perception'. Asanni are those who do not have sanna. Vada mean philosophy. Vadi means philosopher. Vada is inanimate or abstract thing. Vadi is being who holds vada. Like this asanni are beings who hold asanna. This means that they do not have any sanna or perception. They do not have any citta, cetasikas and so there is no nama dhamma. They are born with rupa-patisandhi and they stay as long as they are living with that rupa-bhavanga and they die with rupa-cuti. There is no citta at all through out their life. What will be marana-asanna-javana vithi vara in case of asannisatta- to-be? As asannisattas are 4th rupa jhana bhumi dwellers their immediate past life marana-asanna-javana vithi vara will be that of 4th rupa jhana. When in that life they found that sanna is the chief that leads them to do akusala and then suffering. So they are so timid and afraid of sanna or perception. They repeatedly practise their 4th rupa jhana with a special intention that sanna should not arise. Their intention made them not thinking much and so sanna become so subtle that it is a bit inapparent. Because of their wish and because of the power of the 4th rupa jhana they were able to drop the sanna out in the last javana of previous life. Because of this very strong cause as soon as cuti-citta arise they all are reborn as asannisatta with rupa-patisandhi. There do not arise any citta and any sanna at all till rupa-cuti happens. Marana-asanna-javana vithi vara would be like this. BBB..MPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB BB..BBBMJJJJJJJTT[contemplating on sanna as dispassionate]BBBBBBBBBBB BB..BBBMPUAG4RJC|Asannisatta rupa-patisandhi_rupa-bhavanga_________--- -______rupa-bhavanga_______rupa-cuti|PBBBBBBBBBBB JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ = Jhana-samapatti BBBMJJJJJJJTT = contemplating dispassionating on sanna (kama-javana) BB..BBBMPUAG4RJC= marana-asanna-javana vithi vara 4RJ = 4th rupa jhana without or indistinct sanna[neither-present-nor- absent] So there are 5 javana cittas. 1. Parikamma 2. Upacara 3. Anuloma 4. Gotrabhu 5. 4th Rupa Jhana citta with indistinct sanna[NPNA] C is cuti citta of that past life. Because of this marana-asanna- javana 4th rupa jhana citta with NPNA after cuti there has to arise a body without any perception. This does happen because of very powerful 4th rupa jhana. Actually this realm is the top of all rupa jhana leaving after 5 pure abode or 5 suddha-vasa brahma bhumis. As they do not have any sanna they do not have to suffer anything while they are in that realm. But all Buddhists do not like that realm as it lives long without any citta or nama dhamma and so it is totally impossible to learn Dhamma whenever a Buddha arises when in that realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41102 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - the cycle and the arahat, Htoo. Dear Htoo and Tep, I try to add something about D.O. and this is also connected with Tep's Q. whether it is sufficient to understand the D.O, to become a sotapanna. Kelvin answered this, but I could add a few things. op 18-01-2005 00:29 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > What is moment to moment D.O? Does that exist in teaching? If yes, > what about of arahats? N: Included in the D.O, are the three vattas or rounds: the round of kamma, of vipaka and of defilements. These rounds turn just now. So long as we have not eradicated ignorance, we commit kusala kamma and akusala kamma and these produce vipaka, in the form of rebirth and also during life, in the form of sense-cognitions. On account of desirable and undesirable objects experienced through the senses, defilements arise and these motivate kamma again. Thus the three orunds turn on and on. There are different ways of viewing the D.O. , see the following. I can quote part of B.B.'s article on D.O.: The arahat is freed from the cycle. Tep's remark whether it is just sufficient to understand D.O. in order to become a sotapanna: For us worldlings the links of the D.O. are merely names, we have not realized the true nature of dhammas. All stages of insight up to enlightenment have to be realized in order to understand the true maening of D.O. For instance, we do not realize what seeing is. Seeing is vipakacitta, it is pure nama, not mixed with rupa. We confuse seeing and visible object. Although they are together they have different characteristics, and only sati sampajañña can realize these one at a time. At the second stage of tender insight there is a growing understanding of kamma and vipaka, dhammas are seen as conditioned realities. The D.O. is also an explanation of the second and third noble Truth: clinging (the cause of dukkha) and the cessation of dukkha. The sotapanna has clearly understood the four noble Truths. Thus, all stages of insight knowledge have to be realized before the D.O. can be truly understood. Nina. 41103 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Howard's suttas, no 1,2. Hi Howard, you always have a good choice of suttas, thank you for sharing. This is what I like. I shall tell you what message I get from this sutta. And what is the message you get? ================ Gradual Sayings (II, i, 5) 'Two things, monks, I have realized: to be discontented in good states'etc, down to 'That is how ye must train yourselves, monks' at the In BB's transl, he gives it the title 'Unremitting Efort'. --- The Buddha speaks about not shrinking back from the struggle and repeats the words he spoke when sitting under the Bodhi Tree: 'Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and dry up...' He would not go away until he had realized omniscience. This took a supreme effort. Evenso should the monks struggle on and strive for the attainment of arahatship. The goal of monkhood is arahatship. I shall now give a summary of the Co: The Buddha explained two things (as in the sutta): not to be contented with kusala dhammas and not to shrink back from the struggle. As to the first, he would not be satisfied with kusala dhammas such as the nimitta in jhana or the image of illumination (obhasa, which one may have at the beginning of the development of insight). He would not be satisfied so long as he had not attained arahatship. N: People may develop different kinds of kusala, even jhana, but kusala alone cannot lead us out of the cycle of birth and death. Only fully developed pañña of the level of arahatship can lead us out of the cycle. The second thing the Buddha explained is not being tired of the struggle, not being disheartened, not shrinking back. He wanted to reach omniscience. The Buddha showed the strength of understanding, the striving of understanding, the perseverance of understanding. N: We see that the energy or effort is not without understanding, it is together with understanding. There are four factors which show the utmost effort of a strong man: holding out until the withering of skin, sinews, bone, and the drying up of flesh and blood. This is steadfast effort. This is the means for the Buddha to realize awakening when he was seated under the Bodhi Tree. The Buddha realized awakening by not being neglectful of sati. Bodhi, awakening, denotes the wisdom of the four Paths and omniscience. The Buddha won the incomparable freedom from slavery, anuttara yoga khema. This is the awakening. The fruition of the arahat and nibbana can be realized by not being neglectful. The Buddha exhorted the monks and said that the fruition of the ariyans is the highest goal of the divine life (brahmacariya, the monk's life). N: it is actually the fruition of the arahat. This can be realized by the highest pañña. The effort that does not shrink back is of great benefit. **** Remark: The lay person cannot sit until his flesh and skin withers, but this sutta can be a reminder not to be neglectful and not to become disheartened. No discouragement, even though the development of pañña takes aeons, even though progress is not always noticeable. The message contained in this sutta: it shows the Buddha's great compassion. For aeons he strove and no burden was too heavy for him. He strove with unremitting energy, courage, perseverance and utmost patience to realize Buddhahood so that he could teach Dhamma to devas and mankind. His energy was always energy for the development of pañña at the present moment. As we read in the Co.: this is . Understanding of all dhammas appearing one at a time through the six doors. It takes patience and courage to be aware of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound and all the dhammas that appear. Such understanding can develop to final liberation. This sutta reminds us not to be neglectful and be aware now of whatever appears through the six doors, one at a time. This message fits with the following sutta: Grad. (II, ii, 9) The Buddha says: .'Abandon evil. It can be done.' The Co only states that the meaning of this sutta is clear. This sutta is encouraging. It is possible to eradicate defilements by pañña that is developed at this very moment. It can be done and we have to begin now. Nina. 41104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Larry, good you ask. aayuhaana is the accumulation of kamma that produces result. The Tiika to Vis. 131 deals with it. Thus, good and bad deeds produce result by way of kamma-condition. The result can be vipaakacittas in the form of rebirth-consciousness and sense-impressions in the course of life, and also kamma produced ruupa. asayanusaya: these are good and bad qualities that have been accumulated and can be the condition for the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas by way of natural strong dependence-condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). Thus, we have to differentiate these two types of conditions. Natural strong dependence-condition is very wide, by this way kusala can condition akusala, or vipaka, and akusala can condition kusala or vipaka. In fact, when a partical kamma produces vipaka, also natural strong dependence-condition operates. P.S. Thanks for the link to Soma, very helpful. op 18-01-2005 02:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What's the difference between asayanusaya and ayuhana? 41105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Htoo and Kel, I feel somewhat lost here. It is pañña that realizes sotapatti magga, and pañña is not ignorance. Nina. op 18-01-2005 02:30 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Yes, I have heard of that > some even did not know that they achieve sotapatti magga nana and > they may never practise or stay in sotapatti-phala-samapati as they > do not know that they are sotapams. 41106 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Hi Howard, yes, you formulated it well. As to nibbana: this is anatta, non self, it is devoid of self. But to me all these notions are mere names since I have not realized the truth directly. Nina. op 18-01-2005 00:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > (The emptiness of nibbana is something else, however, and I'm not very sure > what exactly. 41107 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:53am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hey Tep, > > Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And > > between the two my life flows. --Nisargadatta Maharaj. > > That is a great answer to my question! > > BTW, who was Nisargadatta Maharaj? Why did he say that? http://www.nisargadatta.net/ http://www.nonduality.com/nisarga.htm He is describing his middle way between All and Nothing. The first statement relates to no-self the second to compassion and the third to life itself as the middle way. PEACE E 41108 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:31am Subject: Pilgrimage India 2 c Pilgrimage India 2 c We are absorbed in the images and details of things, but at least we can know that this is thinking, not seeing. Without the Buddha's teaching we would be ignorant of realities. It is of no use trying to be aware of seeing, we cannot direct the arising of sati or select any object of awareness. Lodewijk and I visited a Tibetan monastery in Sikkim and looked at a masterpiece of sculpture which took five years to be completed. We walked around it and saw many colourfull details of gods, devils, humans and also of a corpse. It was only visible object or colour that impinged on the eyesense, and this is just a reality. On account of what we see we are absorbed in the images and the details. Lodewijk asked me why I say that it is ³just² visible object. I answered: ³Because it is nothing else but visible object, just that.² This example shows that the latent tendencies of ignorance and sense desire condition the arising of akusala cittas time and again. Since the latent tendencies are so deeply rooted, they cannot be eradicated immediately. Right understanding has to be developed life after life so that enlightenment can be attained and the latent tendencies can be eradicated stage by stage. Our accumulated lobha, attachment, and wrong view, ditthi, cause us to cling to wrong practice. We try to find ways and means to hasten the development of paññå, but since we have accumulated ignorance of realities for aeons this is impossible. ***** Nina 41109 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Htoo, I see, you gave me some trick questions. I thought you were asking in the context of phala-samapatti only. > 1 can be yes. That is 'It is possible to arise a single phala citta'. > > This can be seen when arahats exit from nirodha-samapatti. > > 1stJ.B.2J.B.3.B.4.B.1stAJ.B.2AJ.B.3AJ.B.Adhi.NN__Nirodha- samapatti___- > -- > > ____Nirodha- samapatti____|Phala.BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. > > There is a single phala citta at the exit from nirodha-samapatti. > > Generally the answer to 1 is no, I accept. > > phala?', it may still be yes even though it is not in accord with > phala-samapatti and it is just part of nirodha-samapatti. kel: let's understand the context exactly here. Actual nirodha- samapatti is this as you said in dhamma thread 235, 41019 BMPUAGNN_____________ApBBB You'll see there's 6 javana cittas before nirodha, thus necessitating a need for 7th as phala after nirodha. This is just a filler citta to me, the goal for phala-samapatti is phala itself which is different goal from nirodha-samapatti. > So it is I think as you said this is just technical. By such > definition of 'uninterruptedness' > > Those arahats who do not have jhana cannot practise phala- samapatti. > Actually they have done their job and they do not need to worry the > matter of phala-samapatti. Kel: my point was exactly the opposite. Unskilled person will have consecutive vithis when trying to reach phala-samapatti. Skilled person will be able to remain in ONE phala-samapatti which long absorption period. AND able to rise from it exactly at the predetermined time in two ways: end phala and start bhavanga. There's a reason why those two were separated out. > In all these 3 samapatti ' ---> ' indicate 'uninterruptedness and > unlimited'. > > In the first that is in jhana-samapatti the uninterruptedness is 'of > jhana citta' and in the 2nd that is phala-samapatti it is 'of phala > citta' and in 3rd samapatti or nirodha-samapatti it is of 'voidness > of namakkhandhas'. Kel: you're describing the end result and nothing about the training that allows one to achieve samapatti with uninterruptedness and unlimited qualities. It's fine if you want to "reserve" the word samapatti for such an ability. Regardless, there'll still be fits and start with consecutive vithis entering in and out of phala while one is still practicing. Just like some arahats keep ascetics practices, I don't see why they wouldn't keep up their mental exercise for samapattis. It is the same as samatha exercise to become really good at it. Mahasi sayadaw described how to do it with vipassana in his books. - kel 41110 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Nina, This is just what we're taught. As you know magga-vithi is very fast and you only experience nibbana for 3 cittas. So potentially one could miss it easily or not realize exactly what has happened. We're encouraged to do self-examining to see if all proper defilements been rooted out as the best way to see if we have achieved sotapatti or not. There are many and similar experiences in meditation to magga-vithi that makes it hard to tell apart. It's not that there's ignorance, we just don't have a teacher who can read our minds and give us a certificate. - kel wrote: > Dear Htoo and Kel, > I feel somewhat lost here. It is pañña that realizes sotapatti magga, and > pañña is not ignorance. > Nina. 41111 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:57pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Htoo Dear Htoo - The question you asked me was about body impression, a contact or, equivalently, a sense of touch (phassa) during a siting meditation, that Mahasi Sayadaw described in his famous article, "Satipatthana Vipassana, Insight through Mindfulness". Mahasi wrote: > "In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the yogi can > note them when they occur. Body impressions, however, are ever > present. They usually exist distinctly all the time. > During the time that one is sitting, the body impression of stiffness > or the sensation of hardness in this position is distinctly felt. > Attention should therefore be fixed on the sitting posture > and a note made as 'sitting, sitting, sitting.' " Your question was : > Htoo: I agree with 'distinctly felt'. But I do not agree if you > mean 'the object for body-consciousness' is present all the time. Well, during the sitting meditation session the "body impressions" are "ever present", that's what he wrote. The meditator certainly feels stiffness in the legs, knees and his lower back (even after 10 minutes or so). The sensation of hardness can also come from the contact with the floor. Of course the stiffness and sensation of hardness are present "all the time" while the meditator is sitting. I hope my answer makes sense. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > More discussion on this thread 'test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma'. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 41112 From: Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Nina, Ayuhana is the accumulation of kamma that will definitely produce a particular result (vipaka) sometime in the future. Is that right? I thought you said sometime back that accumlations (ayuhana?) condition javana cittas. Asayanusaya are tendencies, kusala and akusala, also accumulated, that _may_ condition a javana citta. Correct? Larry 41113 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a./Mike Dear Mike, thanks for the Pali dic. link below, it is quite extensive, and the 'aayuuhana'. I have just spent about a 'forever' cruising around different sites springing off from the dic. link. What a jungle of 'Buddha' information there is. As I stated before, I can barely manage what comes thro dsg. I thank you for your help. Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > I think you're looking for 'aayuuhana'. > > By the way, while I was casting about for this I rediscovered a nice site > with a good Paali dictionary: > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/ > > You need some fonts for this which are downloadable from the same page. > > Cheers! > > mik > 41114 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. dear Sarah and Robk, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi Mike & Azita, > > > > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I > heard > > K.Sujin saying, I believe. ...snip... > ======= > Dear Azita, > This tape talks about aasaya and anusaya > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/india2004/A_BodhGaya_06.mp3 > Robert Azita: Thanks Sarah and Rob. I have listened to this section of the disc and haven't heard this yet, but that's not saying its not there!!!! Sometimes when listening, I'm not really 'listening' at all. My thinking is far away from the sound, and I realise I haven't heard a word. Maybe that's the characteristic of Moha. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 41115 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:47pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 101 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (m) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** There are different types of conditions for the cittas which arise. The akusala cittas and kusala cittas are conditioned by the accumulated tendencies to kusala and akusala, whereas the experience of a pleasant or unpleasant object through one of the senses such as seeing or hearing is vipåka, which is conditioned by kamma. Cetanå is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. It is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. The word saòkhåra has different meanings, depending on the context in which it is used. The word "saòkhåra" used in the context of the Dependant Origination, means "kamma-formation". Cetanå as a link in the Dependant Origination is kamma-formation, kamma which is capable of producing vipåka so that the cycle of birth and death continues. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41116 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Dear Htoo, Chris, Ken H & All, I really find the Uraga Jataka (354) very inspiring. Thank you for recounting it Htoo in your kind note to Ken H and for the fuller account you gave, Chris. --- Christine Forsyth wrote: ... > "The Bodhisattva was a farmer in a former life as mentioned in the > Uraga Jataka. Rustic though he was, he practiced mindfulness on > death to perfection. He had trained himself to think every now and > then "Death can at any moment come to us." .... S: As I have the text open, let me add a little more for further reflection. From the introduction: " 'Man quits his mortal frame,' etc. This story the Master, while dwelling at Jetavana, told concerning a landowner whose son had died. The introductory story is just the same as that of the man who lost both his wife and father. Here too the Master in the same way went to the man's house, and after saluting him as he was seated, asked him saying, "Pray, Sir, are you grieving?" And on his replying, "Yes, Reverend Sir, ever since my son's death I grieve," he said, "Sir, verily that which is subject to dissolution is dissolved, and that which is subject to destruction is destroyed, and this happens not to one man only, nor in one village merely, but in countless spheres, and in the three modes of existence, there is no creature that is not subject to death, nor is there any existing thing that is capable of abiding in the same condition. All beings are subject to death, and all compounds are subject to dissolution. But sages of old, when they lost a son, said, 'that which is subject to destruction is destroye,' and grieved not." And hereupon at the man's request he related a story of the past." ***** From the story, when the mother received the message from her husband to only prepare food for one, she understood her son was dead. I'd like to add the following detail which is so poignant, I find: "Then she understood that her son was dead. But she did not so much as tremble. Thus showing perfect self-control, and wearing white garments and with perfumes and flowers in her hand, she bade them bring food, and accompanied the other members of the family to the field. But no one of them all either shed a tear or made lamentation. The Bodhisatta, still sitting in the shade where the youth lay, ate his food. And when his meal was finished, they all took up fire-wood and lifting the body on to the funeral pile, they made offerings of perfumes and flowers, and then set fire to it. But not a single tear was shed by any one. All were dwelling on the thought of death. Such was the efficacy of their virtue that the throne of Sakka manifested signs of heat. Sakka said, 'who, I wonder, is anxious to bring me down from my throne?' And on reflection he discovered that the heat was due to the force of virtue existing in these people, and being highly pleased he said, "I must go to them and utter a loud cry of exultation like the roaring of a lion, and immediately afterwards fill their dwelling place with the seven treasures." ***** He then visits them and they give the answers already quoted by Chris. At the conclusion, he filled their house 'with countless wealth'. "The Master having finished his exposition of the Law, declared the Truths and identified the Birth:- At the conclusion of the Truths the landowner attained the fruit of the First Path:- 'At that time Khujjuttara was the female slave, Uppalavanna the daughter, Rahula the son, Khema the mother, and I myself was the brahmin." Thank you all again for the inspiring posts about this Jataka. Metta, Sarah ======== 41117 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Larry, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Ayuhana is the accumulation of kamma that will definitely produce a > particular result (vipaka) sometime in the future. Is that right? ... I thought you gave some good details on this in your earlier post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39210 --- Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, we both recalled K.Sujin using aasaya to refer to good and bad tendencies or inclinations and when I went through the tapes before, I heard the same, but no time to check again now. (Azita may!!). But perhaps it depends on context. I'll clarify when we next visit Bkk. What I understood was just like in the quote you gave from the Thai comy under aasaya, bias dentoting the disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as clinging, and also good, such as reununciation. ======================== 41118 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi AndrewL, S: The delay is no problem and you're certainly still making good sense. Hang in there! Just use CMA as a reference text rather than a 'must read' book. (I've never read through it either). Down to your questions and comments. --- Andrew Levin wrote: <..> > So is self view necessarily wrong view, that is, it comprises wrong > view with whatever type of citta there is? …. S: Self view and associated wrong views just arise with particular kinds of cittas rooted in attachment. Like all other cittas, they arise momentarily, in this case with a wrong idea or marking of the object, and then fall away. As Nina just wrote: "Our accumulated lobha, attachment, and wrong view, ditthi, cause us to cling to wrong practice." …. >If so I still think we can > practise this as a psycho-physical organism, that is, without wrong > view, the factors then being, what degree of different qualities can > be cultivated or brought into being - and which cannot, but depend on > unchangeable conditions (I would say sati is one we can cultivate) … S: If we understand that particular conditions will lead to the arising of wholesome states such as sati, this is right. If we really think that 'we', Andrew and Sarah can cultivate or develop sati, then it's wrong. Let me know if I've missed part of your question here. …. <…> >Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're trying to have > view of one nama or rupa at a time, you still think of yourself as a > 'person,' or 'Sarah Abbott' that goes through day to day recognizing > one nama, one rupa. …. S: You're right. When you or I are trying to do anything or trying to have a particular view or to understand one nama or rupa at a time, it's till 'me', 'Sarah' or 'Andrew' at work, a lurking wrong view conditioned by attachment and ignorance. It's really good (imho) that this is making sense. So at these moments, that trying or thinking or attachment can be known. That is the present nama. …. >Similarly I think I can get to understand how the > four foundations of mindfulness are properly practised, and practise > them. I don't see why this can't be practised with 'right view' that > there is no self if this is to be understood. Maybe you could > describe exactly what wrong view of self is, if you still disagree. …. S: Self-view can be very subtle and can sneak in anytime. One moment, there can be awareness naturally of a nama or rupa appearing and the next moment a trying to repeat it, trying to understand or label or practice, all with an idea of self. Anytime there's the idea that it's 'my' awareness or that "I' can be aware, or this body is mine and so on, it's self view. (See in U.P. under 'sakkaya-ditthi' for much more). It has to be the object of awareness and understanding to be seen for what it is. Let me know if you want me to say more. I can give lots of examples, like anytime there is an idea of following a practice….!! …. > OK, now talk to me on a level of how you start out with wrong view of > self, what this is superficially at the top level, and how you get > down to eliminating it as a fetter completely. …. S: OK: Top Level:"If I sit and concentrate on the breath or body, awareness, calm and understanding will grow". Another Top Level: "I have to be aware and control my life so that later Self will be eliminated" Another one: "You and I can eliminate this fetter". As I say, by understanding dhammas when they are experienced, firstly as namas and rupas, not people or things, gradually the fetters will be lessened and eventually eradicated, but without any Self's intervention. Such understanding has to be with detachment which doesn't mind at all what is experienced right now. …. > > S: Hearing is a citta (consciousness). Citta here is a synonym for > vinnana > > as in vinnana khandha. So hearing, seeing and all other cittas are > > included in vinnana khandha. > A:> I still don't understand. What is vinnana then? I was under the > impression the skhandhas are the five aggregates including material > form, perceptions, feelings, volition, and mental formations like > emotions and cognition. Is it that hearing-consciousness is part of > mental formations? That I could understand. … S: Citta or vinnana is the nama, the reality which has no shape or form and which experiences an object at every single moment, including when we're fast asleep. It 'cognizes' or 'knows' its object, whether it is a sense door object, a mind door object or a 'door-freed' object (as I say, like when we're fast asleep and there are just bhavanga cittas arising). In your classification of the khandhas, The fourth one is sankhara khandha which includes cetana and all other mental factors (cetasikas) except sanna and vedana which have their own khandha. The last one you mention is vinnana khandha. This includes all these cittas, including hearing consciousness. When we refer to emotions, we're usually referring to feelings and mental states such as greed and aversion, included in sankhara khandha. I think there is something not quite right about your expression of vinnana/citta, so please ask more questions on this as it's important to get straight. Just remember that citta merely experiences or cognizes its object, whether that is a rupa, another nama or a concept. It doesn't feel or like or get angry. These are the tasks of the accompanying mental factors that arise with it. You might look again at the intro to 'Cetasikas' or Nyantiloka's dict under khandhas, from which I'm copying this quote:. "What, O monks, is the consciousness group (vinnana khandha)? There are 6 classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-c, tongue-c, body-c, and mind-c" S XX11,56 … > Ooh. Makes sense. So citta is the object of citta at moments where > there is a lack of hearing, seeing, etc, and the consciousness that > adverts it to the appropriate sense door. … S: Through the sense doors (i.e seeing, hearing and the following cittas), the object is always a rupa, eg visible object, sound etc. Through the mind-door (i.e when there is no seeing, hearing and following cittas etc), the object can be either a) the same rupa just experienced through the sense door, b) the citta which has just fallen away, c) a cetasika which has just fallen away or d) most commonly, a concept or idea. When we are talking about satipatthana, the object can only be a reality, i.e a), b) or c) above, but not d). I suggest you don't get too bogged down in the Abhidhamma details. It's enough to know that there can be awareness now of any reality appearing by conditions. Seeing is real, hearing is real, like, dislike and so on are real and can be directly known. …. > Man, it's been so long since I've had the sati to be aware of > thinking. That kind of sati required hours a day of meditation. … S: No. It doesn't require hours of anything. Right now, as we speak, there is thinking. It's not you or me, it's just a conditioned nama. Awareness can arise anytime and then gone. Nothing to cling on to or to try and have arise. Very, very ordinary. …. >I > still can use the exercise of 'labeling' - (it would be good if > someone could describe to me the point of labeling and its drawbacks > compared to other methods towards realization that can be used in its > place) thoughts, that is, 'thinking, thinking,' but bare awareness of > thoughts is history as far as I'm concerned. Need more sati. … S: There are other 'labelling' discussions going on at the moment. As I see it, as soon as there is any labelling, it's thinking about realities long since fallen away with attachment, a desire to catch or be aware of them. No one has shown me any references to where the ancient texts recommend such a practice. Friends have also referred to 'sitting, sitting, sitting', but while there is this idea of posture and my body, the truths about elements arising and passing away will always be covered up. So instead of helping the development of awareness, it hinders instead, by encouraging more ideas about a heap or lump or posture or group of namas and rupas together. So, let sati develop naturally by understanding what namas are and what rupas are in the first place. …. > Man, I am all for non-conceptual awareness. It's been what is lacking > in my life for over a year now. Now what is the characteristic of > awareness, what conditions it? …. S: Not just a year. It's been lacking for aeons of lifetimes. I think it shows some understanding to even see how it's lacking. Mostly we take conceptual awareness for being sati, when it's merely thinking. If we've never heard about these dhammas, the khandhas , the namas and rupas, there is no possibility for awareness to develop. Awareness has the characteristic of just being aware momentarily of one of these realities when it appears. At that moment, there is no idea of 'me' doing anything or trying or of any label or body or thing. Just 'seeing' or 'hearing' or 'feeling' or 'sound' or any other dhamma. In the beginning it's bound to be so weak and infrequent and it's bound to be followed by doubt, attachment, wrong view and other unwholesome states. Gradually understanding can begin to know when awareness arises and what its characteristic is, so that it can really develop, but not by any wishing or wanting. …. > Well, I've tried (to cultivate it in one session), and had it manifest > itself throughout the day, but I'm not sure of this point. It seems > like I could have had more knowledge or mindfulness of the parts of > the 'chariot' as its functions as a whole began to slow down. But > maybe you are right? … ;-). The obstacle is this 'trying to cultivate it', because it's motivated by attachment and self-view. But that's Ok, they can be seen for what they are when they arise too. When we appreciate that really any dhamma can be known and can be the object of awareness, a huge burden (of wrong view) is lifted and we can really begin to see that awareness can develop anytime without any special efforts or sessions. Trying to slow down cittas or the arising of conditioned dhammas would be another Top Level kind of self-view as I see it, with an idea of Self being in charge which can only lead to dismay and great disturbance when Self doesn't get his/her way. Please ask for any clarifications and let me know if these comments make sense to you. Metta, Sarah p.s I'll also be glad to hear any feedback or different views from others of course. ====== 41119 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Htoo We had here in the Netherlands a novelist who wrote so much novels that critics said: He can write quicker than God can read. I live in a God-less reality but are impressed by your production. I will skip much and react on some quotes of two messages of you. In # 40934 Htoo: I am just trying to touch all possible areas of Dhamma. These are not final words. Actually they are all just a starting point. When 'this starting point' is assumed as complicated, I feel a bit reluctant to proceed. We do have different perfection-potentials and different accumulation. When you think that 'Dhamma Threads' are alienating your spiritual practice, please just use it sensibly. Dhamma Threads are just a starter. You can put aside them and you can go forward if you think your own path is fine. Joop (now): Write and publish as quick as you want (and as Sarah want) but I'm not sure a discussion forum as this DSG is a perfect medium for to much monologues. Publishing on your webside or in a book or a ebook can be didactically better. I will read your information on the moment I'm ready for it. Joop continued (a week ago): Not me: the only non-human beings I can imagine are animals; Htoo (a week ago): This is externality of yours. You are judging with your own experience. Here you may argue that if self-experience cannot be used how things will be justifiable to say without proof. Here again 'proof' seems that you want to see with your own eyes with your own mind etc etc. Regarding non-human beings, there are people who communicate with non- human beings who are not animals. You seem to like 'proof'. The proof is inside of you. If you can fulfil the necessary things and conditions you will see with you mind-eyes to those non-human-non- animal beings. For the first step 'can you stay arresting of thoughts?' When the surface water is violently shaking, rocking, vibrating, trembling there is nothing to be seen. When it stands still when [thoughts are arrested] there are reflections and they can clearly be seen. The proof is inside of you. Joop (now). I have a skeptical attitude, and I think I keep it. It's not that I like 'proof' but that I know the strength of 'whisful thinking', in myself and in others. And I don't only accept empirical facts from outside, read by one of the physical senses, but also with inside, as a result from meditation/contemplation. And about the 'non-human-non-animal beings': I don't have the idea that I need them, not in daily life and not in my spiritual life. Htoo contiued: 'Self is self-refuge'. Again I remember a person arguing on this matter that there are only 3 refuges and they are The Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha. Joop (now). To me there is a fourth: "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said. I know Bhikkhu Bodhi is playing down this interpretation of this sutta but I'm still sticking to it. No Kalama today Without this basic attitude of me I still was a christian and a consumer and never should have read any Dhamma-text ! In #40950 Htoo (a week ago) Doubtless is the earliest tool to explore nibbana. Please read upanisa sutta. If you are doubtful there is a great hindrance in reaching nibbana. What you think 'proofless' will prove you when they arise in you. That is why I said 'proofless' matter is internal. I do not know whether you see them or not because it is internality of you and not me. Joop (now): Of course I can not know if you are doubtless or not. But to me a teacher who can show his own doubt has more impact on me than a teacher who gives the impression of being perfect and knowing everything. And about 'proofless' I already said what I mean with 'proof'. But one critical remark about your 'Dhamma threads'; it may be it's my scientific background but why don't you give references from the Tipitaka (Sutta's or one of the Abhidhamma books) when you state things as you do ? Because giving the sources of your information is a kind of proof too. I doubt if I will decide to be doubtless, but I try to have a more open mind. Perhaps in the end with that I'm doubtless but I will still be 'agnostic' then. (I don't know you know it and like it but I like the book 'Buddhism without beliefs' of Stephen Batchelor). Thanks again for the many things that has enriched and will enriche my path Metta Joop 41120 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:24am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah (I'm going to drop the "Friend". Connie is right, I sound like a Quaker ;-) Sarah: If we understand that particular conditions will lead to the arising of wholesome states such as sati, this is right. James: Could you please be more specific as to what conditions? Would `intention to practice sati (mindfulness)' be included? Sarah: If we really think that `we', Andrew and Sarah can cultivate or develop sati, then it's wrong. James: Why is that wrong? The view of a permanent self is insidious and far reaching, tainting all of our actions and thoughts, until the moment of enlightenment when that view is dropped. How could one practice sati without that view, when the purpose of sati is to eliminate that view? (I know we have covered this before, but I sense that you want some more discussion.) One's practice doesn't need to be perfect to be effective. Sure, mindfulness without any sense of self is the most perfect, but who is going to be capable of that? Not very many people, so it is important to start from where you are. One can get very discouraged in Buddhist practice if they maintain lofty ideals of what is supposed to happen and how soon it is supposed to happen. The key is to be patient and to break away at the fetter of ignorance little by little; to keep in mind that ignorance has been building in oneself for many eons and it will take some time to be eliminated; and that one shouldn't compare oneself too much to others, as we are all at different points. So, can `Andrew' and `Sarah' have sati? Sure they can! Sarah: No. It doesn't require hours of anything. Right now, as we speak, there is thinking. It's not you or me, it's just a conditioned nama. Awareness can arise anytime and then gone. Nothing to cling on to or to try and have arise. Very, very ordinary. James: Wow! I finally agree with something you write! ;-)) Mindfulness doesn't require hours of meditation to occur, anyone can practice mindfulness- even children. However, serenity meditation (jhana) will make the mindfulness much stronger because then the mind can be directed toward nama or rupa long enough to see all three stages: arising, persisting, and passing away. Sarah: There are other `labelling' discussions going on at the moment. As I see it, as soon as there is any labelling, it's thinking about realities long since fallen away with attachment, a desire to catch or be aware of them. James: Two for Two! I agree with you again! ;-)) I don't believe that `labeling' is very effective because it can disturb the tranquility of the mind to see the three stages of conditioned phenomena I mentioned earlier. It could be used when one if first starting out, in order to get into the habit of mindfulness, but then it should soon after be dropped, in my opinion. Sarah: So, let sati develop naturally by understanding what namas are and what rupas are in the first place. James: Three for three! ;-)) I agree with you here also. However, and I'm sure you won't agree with this: I believe that Abhidhamma study, other than the basics, is a severe hinderance to the type of natural sati you describe. With intense Abhidhamma study, the mind is automatically going to label practically every nama and rupa experienced and thus ruin the natural insight one could attain. I think I will stop here. You write a lot of other things, but this is enough for one post. Metta, James 41121 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Kel: you're describing the end result and nothing about the > training that allows one to achieve samapatti with uninterruptedness > and unlimited qualities. It's fine if you want to "reserve" the > word samapatti for such an ability. Regardless, there'll still be > fits and start with consecutive vithis entering in and out of phala > while one is still practicing. Just like some arahats keep ascetics > practices, I don't see why they wouldn't keep up their mental > exercise for samapattis. It is the same as samatha exercise to > become really good at it. Mahasi sayadaw described how to do it > with vipassana in his books. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Thanks for your kind reply. 3 samapattis I described is just for explanation on vithi vara. The training will be coming at a later time that is near Dhamma Thread (1000). So I just posted end results as you said. With much respect, Htoo Naing 41122 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > The question you asked me was about body impression, a contact or, > equivalently, a sense of touch (phassa) during a siting meditation, that > Mahasi Sayadaw described in his famous article, "Satipatthana > Vipassana, Insight through Mindfulness". Mahasi wrote: > > > "In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the yogi can > > note them when they occur. Body impressions, however, are ever > > present. They usually exist distinctly all the time. > > During the time that one is sitting, the body impression of stiffness > > or the sensation of hardness in this position is distinctly felt. > > Attention should therefore be fixed on the sitting posture > > and a note made as 'sitting, sitting, sitting.' " > > Your question was : > > > Htoo: I agree with 'distinctly felt'. But I do not agree if you > > mean 'the object for body-consciousness' is present all the time. > > Well, during the sitting meditation session the "body impressions" > are "ever present", that's what he wrote. The meditator certainly feels > stiffness in the legs, knees and his lower back (even after 10 minutes or > so). The sensation of hardness can also come from the contact with the > floor. Of course the stiffness and sensation of hardness are present "all > the time" while the meditator is sitting. > > I hope my answer makes sense. > > Kind regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I understand. But what I stress was the other. I know the writings and the words. But body-impression are not present all the time. I am referring them as photthabba-arammana. A rupa just lasts 17 citta-kkhana and it never exceeds its lifespan. If exceed and present all the time then it has to be nicca and not anicca. So I said I know tha writing and the words. Even in our body [what we think] there are many nerves and they are carring messages all the time. But some never reach conscious level. I hope you get the point. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41123 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:58am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Dear Htoo > > We had here in the Netherlands a novelist who wrote so much novels > that critics said: He can write quicker than God can read. > I live in a God-less reality but are impressed by your production. > > I will skip much and react on some quotes of two messages of you. > > In # 40934 > Htoo: I am just trying to touch all possible areas of Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, I will come back later. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41124 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread (239) Dear Dhamma Friends, The linking of the previous life and asannisattas have been discussed in the previous post. What happen when those asannisattas die? Asannisattas do have their own lifespan and when the lifespan expire they have to leave that realm. Their bhavnga or life-contiuning is also rupa-bhavana and there is no citta at all and when it is the time to leave the last life is called rupa-cuti and as soon as that rupa disappear that is after 51st anu-khana there automatically arise a citta. Where does it come from? Isn't that strange? What is the next life? Buddhists say that asannisattas are not good. From perspective of nibbana it is yes, asannisattas are not good. But there is no disasters in asannisatta brahma realm. And when they die they cannot go to apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes like niraya or hell realm, animal realm, peta realm, or asurakaya realm. And they cannot go directly to human realm or deva realms. Why? There is a general rule that patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta take the object of immediate past life's marana-asanna- javana cittas. But in case of asannisatta what will it be [the object] as there is no marana-asanna-javana cittas in asannisatta brahmas. So what is their next life after asannisatta's life. Before that their last life marana-asanna-javana citta is 4th rupa jhana citta. Asannisattas are the result of that 4th rupa jhana with special contemplation. So after asannisatta there arise 4th rupajhana vipaka citta as patisandhi citta. After that life all the rules of citta are the same. After asannisatta, there arise tihetuka patisandhi citta or triple- rooted linking consciousness. These cittas arise as cittas of sugati bhumi or good realms. The vithi vara here comprises three lives. I.life.. BB..BBBMPUAG4RjC|_II.life_asannisatta___|PBBB--III.life-BBB May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41125 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:25am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Joop, You replied today. I said I will come back. Now I am back. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: Dear Htoo We had here in the Netherlands a novelist who wrote so much novels that critics said: He can write quicker than God can read. I live in a God-less reality but are impressed by your production. I will skip much and react on some quotes of two messages of you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The possibility that I may leave the internet. That is why I pressurise the messages. Sarah reminded me one new Dhamma Thread post a day or 7 posts in a week so that readers can digest and more responses will come out. When I am available I do not want to publish or write a book or type an ebook or naything like that. But as 'Sabbe dhamma anatta' my pressurised messages productions are also 'anatta'. No one need to say stop. It will stop at a time. Someone stops me posting. But it was not successful. The reason I am writing here in Groups is not for self-promotion. For Dhamma sharing. Not for my fame. For readers. I am not acting as a all round person or all-know person. I know your message contains the flavour that I am doing so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop quote on old message: > In # 40934 > Htoo: I am just trying to touch all possible areas of Dhamma. These > are not final words. Actually they are all just a starting point. > When 'this starting point' is assumed as complicated, I feel a bit > reluctant to proceed. > We do have different perfection-potentials and different > accumulation. When you think that 'Dhamma Threads' are alienating > your spiritual practice, please just use it sensibly. > Dhamma Threads are just a starter. You can put aside them and you can > go forward if you think your own path is fine. Joop replied: Joop (now): Write and publish as quick as you want (and as Sarah want) but I'm not sure a discussion forum as this DSG is a perfect medium for to much monologues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have responed this above. 'Write and publish as quick as you want'? I have explained above. Quick production is not for me. Even though Dhamma Thread posts look like monologues I always include footnote that to ask question. This indicates that it is not a monologue as you think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Publishing on your webside or in a book or a ebook can be didactically better. I will read your information on the moment I'm ready for it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This matter has been discussed above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: Joop continued (a week ago): Not me: the only non-human beings I can imagine are animals; Htoo (a week ago): >This is externality of yours. You are judging with your own experience. Here you may argue that if self-experience cannot be used how things will be justifiable to say without proof. Here > again 'proof' seems that you want to see with your own eyes with your own mind etc etc. > Regarding non-human beings, there are people who communicate with non-human beings who are not animals. > You seem to like 'proof'. > The proof is inside of you. If you can fulfil the necessary things > and conditions you will see with you mind-eyes to those non-human- non- > animal beings. > For the first step 'can you stay arresting of thoughts?' > When the surface water is violently shaking, rocking, vibrating, > trembling there is nothing to be seen. When it stands still when > [thoughts are arrested] there are reflections and they can clearly be > seen. > The proof is inside of you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Joop (now). I have a skeptical attitude, and I think I keep it. It's not that I like 'proof' but that I know the strength of 'whisful thinking', in myself and in others. And I don't only accept empirical facts from outside, read by one of the physical senses, but also with inside, as a result from meditation/contemplation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is good for you. You might have been Kalama in The Buddha time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: And about the 'non-human-non-animal beings': I don't have the idea that I need them, not in daily life and not in my spiritual life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, you do not need them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop quoted: > Htoo contiued: 'Self is self-refuge'. Again I remember a person > arguing on this matter that there are only 3 refuges and they are The > Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop replied: Joop (now). To me there is a fourth: "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said. I know Bhikkhu Bodhi is playing down this interpretation of this sutta but I'm still sticking to it. No Kalama today Without this basic attitude of me I still was a christian and a consumer and never should have read any Dhamma-text ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is wrong to say 4th refuge. There are 3 refuge. All these 3 are within self-refuge. The Buddha showed the way. The Dhamma paves the way. The Sangha bring the map. Whoever shows the way, the walker is self. That is nself-refuge. This is not to be mixed with 3 refuges. They are not the same kind. Not the same level. Do you think that your self is equal to The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha? But in triplegem The Buddha = The Dhamma = The Sangha When The Dhamma is seen The Buddha is seen. When The Dhamma is attained Sanghahood is attained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop quoted: > In #40950 > Htoo (a week ago) Doubtless is the earliest tool to explore nibbana. > Please read upanisa sutta. If you are doubtful there is a great > hindrance in reaching nibbana. > What you think 'proofless' will prove you when they arise in you. > That is why I said 'proofless' matter is internal. I do not know > whether you see them or not because it is internality of you and not > me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop replied: Joop (now): Of course I can not know if you are doubtless or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because I am external to you. That is bahiddha dhamma or external things to you. So you are right to say above sentence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: But to me a teacher who can show his own doubt has more impact on me than a teacher who gives the impression of being perfect and knowing everything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have responded in earlier part in opening messages. At least you are revealing that 'I am showing off. I am giving the impression of being perfect and knowing everything'. What I see is that 'this is just judging on the writer'. And this is not exploring into dhammas. I do not think this will not benefit any reader. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: And about 'proofless' I already said what I mean with 'proof'. But one critical remark about your 'Dhamma threads'; it may be it's my scientific background but why don't you give references from the Tipitaka (Sutta's or one of the Abhidhamma books) when you state things as you do ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'why don't you give references'? There are many members here who know me as they are members of several Groups. I have already told that my main reference is Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha. Many members know that I once explained how I write my messages. There are 2 types of referring. One is 'copying of exact part, word, portion, paragraph' and in such case there give references. But when messages are not like that then the writers give biblography. That is a list of books or texts. When I am writing actually most words come from my memory which is data that are automatically stored when I read Abhidhammatthasangaha and many other texts. I read a lot in my past. I listened Dhamma preachings of venerable bhikkhus. But at the moment nearly all I am writing come from from memory. So that is why I do not include any references. For you if you are interested 1.jinatthapakasanii 2.sanvegavatthudiipanii 3.jatakas 4.dhammapada 5.abhidhammatthasangaha 6.visuddhimagga 7.selected texts that I cannot remember the titles and the writers 8.most books written by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw 9.dhamma-preachings of great Sayadaws 10.my practical experiences ---------------------------------------------------------------------- joop continued: Because giving the sources of your information is a kind of proof too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand you and others. But I have explained about references. Do you think there are flaws in Dhamma Threads? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: I doubt if I will decide to be doubtless, but I try to have a more open mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. More open mind is good. But becareful and know the own limitations. Not every 'still' are jhanas and not every 'ordinary' are puthujana. When judging by own wisdom, that wisdom needs to be checked. Sometimes I say 1 >< 1 = 1 but 1 >< 0.5 is not equal to one. 0.5 wisdom will not know full. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Perhaps in the end with that I'm doubtless but I will still be 'agnostic' then. (I don't know you know it and like it but I like the book 'Buddhism without beliefs' of Stephen Batchelor). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How can I access that book. If I have time, I will read it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's conclusion: Thanks again for the many things that has enriched and will enriche my path Metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are most welcome. As I have said messages are not for me but for others. May you be free from doubt nad suspicion With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41126 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Htoo "The Master having finished his exposition of the Law, declared the Truths and identified the Birth:- At the conclusion of the Truths the landowner attained the fruit of the First Path:- 'At that time Khujjuttara was the female slave, Uppalavanna the daughter, Rahula the son, Khema the mother, and I myself was the brahmin." Thank you all again for the inspiring posts about this Jataka. Metta, Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your adding. Your message is changing my memories. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! With Metta, Htoo Naing 41127 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Larry, op 19-01-2005 02:10 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Ayuhana is the accumulation of kamma that will definitely produce a > particular result (vipaka) sometime in the future. Is that right? N: I would omit the word definitely. There are other factors necessary for kamma to produce result. When one lives in time of war it may not be favorable for kusala kamma to produce result. The same when one is born in a hell plane. Moreoever, there is for instance counter active kamma, it prevents a particular kamma to produce result. Many factors are at play, it is most intricate. L: I thought you said sometime back that accumlations (ayuhana?) condition > javana cittas. > Asayanusaya are tendencies, kusala and akusala, also accumulated, that > _may_ condition a javana citta. Correct? N: The word aayuhana is actually reserved for the accumulation of kamma that can produce result. As we read in the Tiika note: Volition is the principle and the other cetasikas work in combination with volition is implied in this context. They perform together good and bad deeds which are accumulated and can bring result. Desire or anger arise with akusala citta but this does not always have the strength of akusala kamma. They arise and fall away and the tendency to desire or anger are accumulated and thus there are conditions for the arising again of desire or anger. They can condition akusala javana cittas by way of natural strong dependence condition. The akusala javana cittas that arise by this condition may be very strong and have the intensity of motivating a bad deed. Such a deed is accumulated (here we can use aayuhana) and it can produce vipaka later on. Not only that. These strong akusala cetasikas also add to the latent tendencies. Again these can condition the arising of akusala javana cittas by way of natural strong dependence condition. Again and again and again. That is the cycle. In whatever way we look at akusala, it is dangerous in all respects. Nina. 41128 From: nina Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:36am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 131 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 131 and Tiika [THE FORMATIONS AGGREGATE] Intro: the Pali term sa²nkhaarakkhandha stands for the khandha of formations or activities. In this khandha are included all cetasikas other than feeling and perception. As we have seen, feeling and perception or remembrance are separate khandhas: vedanaakkhandha and saññaakkhandha. The term sa²nkhaara is also used in connection with dhamma. Sa²nkhaara dhammas are all conditioned realities. Citta, cetasika and ruupa are sa²nkhaara dhammas, they arise because of conditions and they fall away. Sa²nkhaarakkhandha is sa²nkhaara dhamma, but not all sa²nkhaara dhammas are sa²nkhaarakkhandha. Text Visuddhimagga XIV, 131: Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' (par.81). N: We read in the Tiika of the Vis. XIV, 81: N: Of the khandha of formations, sankhaarakkhandha, volition is principal (Dispeller of Delusion, p. 22). Volition has the task of accumulating and it also coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas, it has a double task. Abhisa²nkhara designates volition that is kusala kamma or akusala kamma which is accumulated and can produce result. It is a link in the Dependent Origination. Volition also arises with vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta and then it only coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas. Text Vis: And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating [57]. N: The note 57 is taken from the Tiika text: ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). N: Agglomerating, raasikara.na: making a heap. The meaning is: heaping up, adding together. As to the function of accumulating, aayuuhana, this refers to the accumulation of kamma that can produce a result. Cetanaa, which is kamma, is the basis or principal of the khandha of formations. Text Vis: What is that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' (S.iii,87). N: As to the words, they form the formed (sa"nkhatamabhisa"nkharontiiti), the Tiika explains this as: their own fruit is ³formed² or conditioned (attano phala.m sa²nkhata.m), and it adds the word: produced (nipphanna.m). It is produced accordingly (sammadeva). They operate together with kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa so that the result is produced accordingly. This is the meaning of, Œthey form¹, abhisa²nkharonti, the Tiika states. Sa²nkaroti means to put together or combine. The prefix abhi is used here in the sense of preponderance. All akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas are included in sa²nkhaarakkhandha. It is said, Œthey form the formed¹; the plural is used here: abhisa²nkharonti. Cetanaa, volition or intention, is the principal of this khandha. Kamma is actually cetanaa cetasika. When we perform good or bad deeds it is volition or intention that motivates the deed and this is the activity of kamma that is accumulated. Cetanaa is accompanied by other cetasikas when it motivates a good deed or a bad deed and these perform each their own function. ****** Nina. 41129 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, op 18-01-2005 20:54 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@y...: As you know magga-vithi is very > fast and you only experience nibbana for 3 cittas. So potentially > one could miss it easily or not realize exactly what has happened. N: The sotapanna, as I said, has to go through all stages of insight knowledge. He sees the disadvantages more and more of conditioned dhammas and inclines to nibbana. It is a gradual process and paññaa is growing. When he is becoming a sotapanna there is the lokuttara indriya: the assurance: I shall come to know what I did not know before: an-aññaataññassaamii. He directly experiences nibbaana for the first time. After that there is pacchavekkhana ñaa.na: reviewing. Reviewing nibbaana, reviewing the defilements that have been eradicated and those that are still to be eradicated. This is important. He knows that he should go on developing paññaa until he reaches arahatship. Yes, these are only a few moments. Enlightenment can be realized in daily life when paññaa has been developed to that stage. K: We're encouraged to do self-examining to see if all proper > defilements been rooted out as the best way to see if we have > achieved sotapatti or not. N: Yes. But since it is paññaa I do not see how there could be any doubt. If a person has doubt he should ask himself: what do I understand at this moment? Do I understand seeing now as nama, visible object now as rupa? Do I realize them as arising and falling away, as anatta? What about lobha now? Is it only a name, or do I realize its characteristic as non-self, not my lobha? K: There are many and similar experiences > in meditation to magga-vithi that makes it hard to tell apart. N: Meditation: you mean the development of jhana. When that is properly done, one does not get confused like that. There is also paññaa in jhana. Paññaa has to know precisely when the citta is kusala and when there is lobha that takes for jhana or for magga citta what is not. The fake has to be differentiated from the real. Truthfulness is very necessary, in whatever way one wants to practice. Delusion is dangerous as you will agree. K: It's > not that there's ignorance, we just don't have a teacher who can > read our minds and give us a certificate. N: The Buddha has taught us in such a way that we have to develop our own pañña, that is a great blessing. We have to be our own refuge, we are not dependent on a teacher. True, a teacher can point the way in the beginning, but then we have to develop pañña ourselves. Nina. 41130 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:08am Subject: Dhamma Thread (240) Dear Dhamma Friends, At any given time there is a citta. That citta is always accompanied by a number of cetasikas. All these dhammas that is citta and its associated cetasikas have to depend on an object or an arammana. All these dhammas have to ground on a base or ground or vatthu. This is always right whenever a satta or a being that we understand is a collection of 5 aggregates or 5 khandhas or pancakkhandha. These 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates are 1. rupa.kkhandha or 'material aggregates' 2. vedana.kkhandha or 'feeling aggregates' 3. sanna.kkhandha or 'perception aggregates' 4. sankhara.kkhandha or 'mental formations aggregates' 5. vinnana.kkhandha or 'consciousness aggregates'. There are 1 rupa khandha and 4 nama khandhas. Asannisattas brahmas or brahma without mind are just living with only one khandha and it is rupa.kkhandha. There are another 4 realms that do not have all 5 aggregates. They are 4 arupa brahma realms. They live with only 4 nama.kkhandhas. These 4 khandhas are feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness aggregates. There is no rupa at all. In that realm or when a citta arises in that realm then there is no ground or base rupa or vatthu dhamma for these 4 namakkhandhas to home. So the given citta if in pancavokara bhumis or realms that have 5 aggregates that citta has all the characters that should have. When the given citta is in catuvokara bhumis or realms that have 4 aggregates that citta will not have any vatthu to ground on. That given citta may be functioning as vithi citta. Or it may well be functioning as vithi-mutta citta. Vithi citta means 'consciousness in procession' and vithi-mutta citta means 'process-free consciousness'. If it is a citta functioning as a vithi citta then that citta has to be one citta of already described vithi varas. Vithi varas are 1. cakkhu-dvara vithi vara 2. sota-dvara vithi vara 3. ghana-dvara vithi vara 4. jivha-dvara vithi vara 5. kaya-dvara vithi vara All these are panca-dvara vithi vara and javana cittas in these 5 vithi varas are called kama javana. There are 4 kinds of arising of these 5 vithi vara depending on how many vithi cittas arise in a series. These 4 kinds are 1.ati-mahanta-arammana vithi vara 2.mahanta-arammana vithi vara 3.paritta-arammana vithi vara 4. ati-paritta-arammana vithi vara So there will be 20 vithi varas in panca-dvara vithi varas. There are mano-dvara vithi varas. Depending on number of vithi cittas there are 2 kinds of arising of vithi cittas. They are 1. vibhuta-arammana vithi vara 2. avibhuta-arammana vithi vara Both vithi varas are kama javana vithi varas. Regarding kinds of manodvara vithi varas there are 1. kama javana vara 2. jhana javana vara 3. magga javana vara 4. abhinna javana vara 5. jhana-samapatti vithi vara 6. phala-sama-patti vithi vara 7. nirodha-samapatti vithi vara Apart from kama javana vithi vara, other 6 manodvara vithi varas are all vibhuta-arammana and there is no avibhuta-arammana in jhana javana vara, magga javana vara, and phala jhana vara. When a citta is functioning as a vithi citta or processing consciousness then that citta has to be one of vithi cittas in one of vithi vara mentioned above. If that citta is not processing consciousness then that citta is working as 1. linker who is life-starter( patisandhi citta) or 2. life-continuer (bhavanga citta) or 3. life-ender (cuti citta) When working as one these 3, that citta and its home 'rupa' are collectively and externally viewed as a being or satta. There are 19 cittas that can do the job of linking or life-starting, the job of life-continuing or the job of life-ending. But being-wise there are 31 kinds of being. These 31 kinds dwell in 31 separate realms. These 31 realms are called 31 planes of existence, or 31 realms or 31 bhumis. These 31 bhumis are 1. 4 arupa brahma bhumis 2. 16 rupa brahma bhumis 3. 6 deva bhumis 4. 1 manussa bhumi (human realm) 5. 4 apaya bhumis ( 4 woeful planes ) ----- 31 bhumis These 31 bhumis may well be out of interest. But as they are well connected with cittas, they will be explained in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41131 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:06pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas > N: Yes. But since it is paññaa I do not see how there could be any doubt. If > a person has doubt he should ask himself: what do I understand at this > moment? Kel: Vis. XXII 21. Trainers may or may not have the reviewing of the defilements abandoned and those still remaining. In fact it was owing to the absense of such reviewing that Mahanama asked the Blessed One, 'What state is there still unabandoned by me internally owing to which at times states of greed invade my mind and remain?' (M.i, 91), all of which should be quoted. I just don't think it's so clear cut in what actually is known to ariyas of different grades. The only things I see for sure are the original 10 vipassana-nanas and magga-vithi. Beyond that I think vithis can happen in any order and different time frames. I don't really have much further to say as I think our positions are just different. - Kel 41132 From: Justin Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:24am Subject: Greetings Hello Everybody, I look forward to reading your posts. I am somewhat new to studying the Dhamma. i hope to make some posts once in awhile myself. Best regards, Justin 41133 From: Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Nina, How do we categorize the accumulation of feeling and consciousness? Larry ---------------------------- N: "Such a deed is accumulated (here we can use aayuhana) and it can produce vipaka later on. Not only that. These strong akusala cetasikas also add to the latent tendencies. Again these can condition the arising of akusala javana cittas by way of natural strong dependence condition." 41134 From: Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 131 and Tiika Hi Nina, I'm having a hard time understanding this section. Is the meaning that sankara cetasikas combine themselves or other dhammas into a whole? Is this combination a matter of coordinating cetasikas? For "agglomeration" you gave the meaning of "heap". A heap is a group, as in "khandha". What's the difference between a heap and a whole? Also it's difficult to resolve the difference between accumulation and impermanence? Larry ------------------------- N: " Sa²nkaroti means to put together or combine." 41135 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:29pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 102 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (n) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** At this moment we are in the cycle of birth and death and we cling to life, we want to go on living. We think that life is desirable because we do not know what life really is: only nåma and rúpa which do not stay. We cling to the self, we want to be liked and admired by others, we want to be successful in our work. However, we have many frustrations in life; when we do not get what we want we are disappointed. So long as there are defilements there is no end to the cycle of birth and death, but there can be an end to the cycle if we begin to know this moment of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound or thinking as it is, as only conditioned realities which do not stay. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41136 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings Hi Justin, --- Justin wrote: > I look forward to reading your posts. I am somewhat new to studying the > Dhamma. i > hope to make some posts once in awhile myself. ... Welcome to DSG and thx for make your presence known! We'll look forward to your contributions. Why not start by telling us a little more about yourself, your interest in studying the Dhamma and where you live? You may find it useful to look at posts under 'New to the list and new to the Dhamma' in Useful Posts in the 'files' section on the homepage. Also, just ignore any posts which are too detailed for now and start your own threads I suggest. Let us know if we can help at all and look forward to hearing your reflections. Metta, Sarah ======== 41137 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James, (AndrewL & TG), Thanks for your feedback - you sensed right! --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Could you please be more specific as to what conditions? > Would `intention to practice sati (mindfulness)' be included? …. S: I would say understanding its characteristic, understanding when it arises and when it doesn't, understanding the objects of mindfulness - which means clearly distinguishing between namas and rupas, eg between seeing and visible object, between hearing and sound etc, and understanding (at least intellectually in the beginning) that these dhammas are anatta. How does such understanding develop? By hearing/reading/listening and really considering what is real at this very moment as we're doing. We read that right understanding is the forerunner* in the suttas and Abhidhamma and I think it's correct that the other path factors follow its lead. Intention is not a path factor, but if there is right understanding and right awareness, there is right effort and the intention will be wholesome at such moments. …. > Sarah: If we really think that `we', Andrew and Sarah can cultivate > or develop sati, then it's wrong. > > James: Why is that wrong? …. S: Because there is no Andrew or Sarah in truth to do anything. …. >The view of a permanent self is insidious > and far reaching, tainting all of our actions and thoughts, until > the moment of enlightenment when that view is dropped. How could > one practice sati without that view, when the purpose of sati is to > eliminate that view? (I know we have covered this before, but I > sense that you want some more discussion.) …. S: Thx and yes, you make good points. As you say the view is insidious and only eradicated at the moment of enlightenment. Still, even though there is the latent tendency all the time, it only arises with unwholesome moments of consciousness and only then with some particular kinds of attachment, such as when we really think 'We' can cultivate sati or make anything happen by 'Our' will. When there is awareness or wise reflection or any wholesome state, this insidious view does not arise and there's no idea that Andrew, James or Sarah can do anything. …. > One's practice doesn't need to be perfect to be effective. Sure, > mindfulness without any sense of self is the most perfect, but who > is going to be capable of that? …. S: Good points. I agree, we're beginners and we're not looking for perfection. However, right from the start, I think we have to begin to distinguish between 'right' moments with awareness and wise consideration and 'wrong' moments with self view. If there's no distinguishing of right and wrong practice, we'll just follow blindly what we read, not realizing we're developing more attachment to self, rather than less. …. >Not very many people, so it is > important to start from where you are. One can get very discouraged > in Buddhist practice if they maintain lofty ideals of what is > supposed to happen and how soon it is supposed to happen. The key > is to be patient and to break away at the fetter of ignorance little > by little; to keep in mind that ignorance has been building in > oneself for many eons and it will take some time to be eliminated; > and that one shouldn't compare oneself too much to others, as we are > all at different points. …. S: Very well said. All your points are good. And in the end, no 'you' or 'me' or 'anyone' to be at any point either. …. > James: Wow! I finally agree with something you write! ;-)) > Mindfulness doesn't require hours of meditation to occur, anyone can > practice mindfulness- even children. However, serenity meditation > (jhana) will make the mindfulness much stronger because then the > mind can be directed toward nama or rupa long enough to see all > three stages: arising, persisting, and passing away. …. S: ;-)) But I don't quite agree with your comments about 'anyone' and 'even children'. In a generally used sense of mindfulenss, perhaps, but satipatthana mindfulness is very specific and depends on having heard about dhammas (realities) which only a Buddha can teach. Also, I don't agree with your comment about jhana. Developed wisdom doesn't depend on having enough time and is accompanied by momentary concentration only. More to discuss here. A thread in itself. …. > James: Two for Two! I agree with you again! ;-)) I don't believe > that `labeling' is very effective because it can disturb the > tranquility of the mind to see the three stages of conditioned > phenomena I mentioned earlier. It could be used when one if first > starting out, in order to get into the habit of mindfulness, but > then it should soon after be dropped, in my opinion. …. S: I'm very encouraged to see these agreements (however short-lived or even if our reasons for the common view are a little different). I would go further and say that starting off 'labelling' just gets one into the habit of labeling. Like labelling the food on one's plate has nothing to do with the tasting of that food. …. > James: Three for three! ;-)) I agree with you here also. However, > and I'm sure you won't agree with this: I believe that Abhidhamma > study, other than the basics, is a severe hinderance to the type of > natural sati you describe. …. S:;-)) I'm certainly enjoying the lull before the next storm…. I do agree that wrong handling of Abhidhamma study, such as memorizing the texts with an idea of this as being of importance or trying to experience all the realities one reads about is definitely 'a severe hindrance to…natural sati'. The problem of course is in the way or view when one studies, not in the texts themselves. (I liked TG's posts on the meaning of 'no control' (#38932) and some of his comments on saddha (#40987) where he stresses there can be mindfulness 'when reading Abhidhamma or a commentary, even when watching the news and seeing D.O. working in physical and psychical manners'. Later he goes onto say that he has faith in the truths or rather principles in the teachings which can be investigated and realized, rather than in the texts themselves.I think this is right - abhidhamma is the seeing, the hearing, the like or dislike now, not the books.) Also, let me quote again from the Atthasalini,the comy to the first Abhidhamma text, a passage which you're also sure to agree with. It is discussing how like with the catching of the snake simile, one can wrongly grasp any of the Tipitaka. After discussing the wrong grasping of the Vinaya and Suttanta, we read about the dangers of the wrong grasping of the Abhidhamma too: "The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction. For it has been said, 'Bhikkhus, there are four unthinkables, things that should not be thought of. Madness or vexation will be the portion of him who does so." (Aii 80). Thus the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the threee Pitakas, in due course arrives at failure of different sorts, such as evil principles, wrong views, mental derangement." …. >With intense Abhidhamma study, the mind > is automatically going to label practically every nama and rupa > experienced and thus ruin the natural insight one could attain. … S: I'm not sure, but if there is this labeling or trying to experience 'every nama and rupa' (or any nama and rupa), it's quite the wrong handling of the text, I think. Like you said, enough for one post. Thx for your helpful comments. Metta, Sarah *Dispeller (542), a comy text to the Abhidhamma, on the 8fold Path factors: "Accordingly right view is taught first among these eight states by the Blessed One because of its great helpfulness to the meditator (yogin) who is practicing for the attainment of nibbana. For this is called the light of understanding and the weapon of understanding. Therefore by means of this Right View (which is) called in the prior stage insight knowledge, by destroying the darkness of ignorance and slaying the robbers which are the defilements, the meditator reaches nibbana in safety." ========================= 41138 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Htoo and Kel, Htoo, I personally hope your DT series continues to 1000. Thank you for accommodating various requests to go at a slower pace. More to add on them later, to show there's dialogue going on as you say;-). (Kel, I liked the comments you wrote to Joop (#41078) on the ti-lakkhana. 'When you truly understand anicca, you understand anatta' etc.) Like Nina, the comments you've both been making about not knowing sotapatti magga nana etc having occurred seem rather strange. You'd have to show me one example from the texts of this - someone who didn't know. The sotapanna has no doubt at all. Anyway, Kel and Nina are already discussing this issue. On the 3 kinds of samapatti, you may also like to look at past messages in U.P. under 'fruition'. Here's an extract from one of Nina's (part of a translated series): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18583 "Dhamma Issues 2, Fruition Attainment, no 7 There are three kinds of attainments, samåpatti: jhåna-attainment, fruition-attainment and cessation-attainment (nirodha samåpatti [15) which are progressively more subtle and refined. The ordinary person is able to attain at his own level mundane jhåna. The ariyan who has attained enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non-returner and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these different attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations." ***** Htoo, I liked your post on 'nirodha-samapatti' very much. Many people have misunderstandings. Your breakdown of terms is very helpful. I think the passage above indicates that for phala-samapatti, the enlightenment had to occur with jhana and for nirodha samapatti, the anagami or arahant must have full mastery of all jhanas and the 8 attainments which were not common even in the Buddha's time, as I understand. You mentioned about how in nirodha samapatti there is no citta or cetasika or cittaja rupa. "So from the outside if these arahats are seen by other beings they will be like statues." This also reminded me of a passage from Dispeller 2588(Sammohavinodani)which always makes me smile (we used to play a party game as children called 'Statues';-)). This is referring to the realm where only anagamis can be reborn. "Asa~n~nasattaana.m ('of the non-percipient beings'): of the beings devoid of perception. For some, after going forth in a sectarian sphere and seeing a fault in consciousness because lusting, hating and being deluded depends upon consciousness, imagine that 'The consciousless state is good, this is nibbaana in the present existence;' and they generate the fading away of greed for perception and, developing the fifth attainment in conformity therewith, they are reborn there. At the moment of their rebirth the materiality aggregate alone is reborn. If he is reborn standing, he stands only; if reborn sitting, he sits only; if reborn lying down, he lies only. They remain for five hundred aeons like painted statues. At their end the material body vanishes; sense-sphere perception arises. Through the arising of that perception here [in this sphere] those deities notice (pa~n~naayanti) that they have passed away from that [material] body." ***** I hope to come back to other threads later. I hope you don't have to leave the internet meanwhile;-). Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your poetry and humour in one post to 'Great Larry'and your other answers to questions.I think Nina added all the extra detail on D.O. and we're all in accord. I've shared my views on labeling in other threads;-)..Your 'mass-destruction' post was very good too. I meant to add more on that as well. We can read more about the destruction of the world by floods and other causes as you say in Vism and in suttas too.As you also said, 'The Buddha left the medicine, the food, the shelter. It is the Dhamma.' ============= 41139 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:37pm Subject: Clever Presence ... !!! Friends The Four Foundations of Awareness: Which Four? Only if & when the Noble Friend remains regarding any Body -own or other- simply as a heaped up group, just as a transient, compounded & complex collection, only as a fragile, accumulated & alien assemblage, while being alert, aware & clearly comprehending, then will he thereby effectively remove all urge & frustration from this world.!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend dwells observing any Feeling -from within or from without - simply as an affective reaction, just as an assigned response, only as a fleeting sensation, while being keen, fully conscious & continuously attentive, then will he thereby consequently eliminate all desire & discontent within this world.!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend abides viewing any Thought -present or remote- simply as a fancy mood, just as a made up mentality, only as a conscious moment, while being ready, actively investigating & deliberately discriminating, then will he thereby naturally eradicate all longing & sadness inherent in this world.!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend lives interpreting any Phenomenon -internal or external - simply as a passing mental state, just as a mentally created & conditioned construct, only as an experienced appearance, merely as an imaginary reflected impression, while being acutely awake, mindful & carefully understanding, then will he thereby overcome all attraction & repulsion rooted in this world.!!! Direct Hit: Without any even single exception: Whoever in the distant & ancient past has Awakened to full Enlightenment; Whoever in the present, right now is Awakening to complete Enlightenment; Whoever in the near & far future will Awaken to perfect Enlightenment; All those have been freed, is being freed, will be freed through & by: Initiating, Cultivating, Refining, Perfecting & thoroughly Establishing these Four Foundations of Awareness. !!!! The sole Cause of really Being Present.!!! Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 41140 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Htoo I'm sure you are not writing and publishing for your own fame, not for self-promotion. And now I understand how you write your Dhanmma Threads. Joop : I don't know you know it and like it but I like the book 'Buddhism without beliefs' of Stephen Batchelor Htoo: How can I access that book. If I have time, I will read it. Joop: See www.stephenbatchelor.org and the online article deepagnosticism and that site. Htoo: Do you think there are flaws in Dhamma Threads? Joop: That's a difficult question, that's why I give two answers a. Your knowledge is hundred or thousands times mine, so how can I say if there are flaws, compared with the Dhamma in the texts (1 till 10) you mentioned ? b. To me in the Abhidhamma and commentaries one citta is missing; I made a message (#39844) of that opinion to Sarah and she labeled it (in # 40035) the "Joop social citta", of course she stated that there is no need of such a citta. Joop: To me there is a fourth: "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said. … Htoo: It is wrong to say 4th refuge. There are 3 refuge. All these 3 are within self-refuge. The Buddha showed the way. The Dhamma paves the way. The Sangha bring the map. Whoever shows the way, the walker is self. That is nself-refuge. This is not to be mixed with 3 refuges. They are not the same kind. Not the same level. Do you think that your self is equal to The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha? But in triplegem The Buddha = The Dhamma = The Sangha When The Dhamma is seen The Buddha is seen. When The Dhamma is attained Sanghahood is attained. Joop (now): You say "It is wrong to say 4th refuge." I will say: I know it's not perfectly expressed what I did mean. Of course I don't think that my self is equal to the Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha. But do you say my interpretation of the DN16 quote "trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said." is wrong ? For the rest: thanks again Metta Joop 41141 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi RobK Lets forget about telling people that Abhidhamma is taught by the Buddha because all these are also conditions. If others do not believe in it, this is the nature of the decline of the sasana. As for those who are faith in it, keep it up and keep it going. Honestly speaking it is extremely difficult to have faith in the Abhidhamma and I thank my conditions for having me to know them. And I thank you, Sarah, Nina, Jon, Sukin and all the dinosuars for the willings to share and patient to teach me these valuable materials. In my readings of the suttas, I personally found that those materials from the commentaries and Abhidhamma, have been very enlightening, beneficial. To me they are gems. Recently I took a stress test ;-). I did very well because I have grow from the guidance of fellow folks from this forum, the ancient commentary, the Abhidhamma who taught the juice of nectar, the test of Anatta doctrine ;-) To all those who dont believe in Abhidhamma, thank you for your discussion, because you make me learn more about it and have more faith for it. Keep it up also because I learn from you ;-) Till then, enjoy our conditions :-). Do you know when there is meeting in BKK, maybe will take a visit there before I change job. Please send email to me privately as I am very busy nowadays, dont even have time for reading mails at DSG. Ken O 41142 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:49am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah, Thanks for the feedback also. Here we may see a bit of a storm brewing ;-). Sarah: How does such understanding develop? By hearing/reading/listening and really considering what is real at this very moment as we're doing. We read that right understanding is the forerunner* in the suttas and Abhidhamma and I think it's correct that the other path factors follow its lead. Intention is not a path factor, but if there is right understanding and right awareness, there is right effort and the intention will be wholesome at such moments. James: This sounds fine to me, except I think you are missing something: the eighth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path: Jhana. I read something in an article that best expresses what I want to say, so I will just quote it. From "Practical Advice for Meditators" by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: "One hears such remarks as, "What's the use of books and study?" Or even, "The development of calm is a waste of time! One should only develop insight." Such lop-sided approaches do not reflect the wisdom of Lord Buddha, who taught time and again the necessity of a balanced development of mind. Books and their study are useful to some people who wish to gain a good background of what Lord Buddha really said, before taking up more intensive practice. As for the other assertion, no real insight (only delusive ideas) will arise to the person whose mind has no experience of calm. Such views as these, which are usually based on some peculiar experience of those "teachers" who originate them, are apt to mislead many, since the craving for quick results coupled with the dislike of the necessary hard work, are easily stirred up." Sarah, I will just put it very plainly, if you think that you can develop insight without developing the higher concentration abilities of the mind, you are deluding yourself. Yes, Right View is the leading factor after which all the others follow, but if you are dismissing the importance of samadhi (meditation) to the practice, then you probably don't have Right View. You have a distorted view which you probably learned from Kh. Sujin, because it isn't supported by the texts. (Hmmm…hope I'm not sounding too harsh here, but I can't think of a nicer way to say it.) Sarah: Because there is no Andrew or Sarah in truth to do anything. James: Then who is writing this post to me signing her name "Sarah"? Are you an alien who has taken over Sarah's body? Give it back!! ;-)) I believe that anatta means that there is no abiding essence, no permanent self, no separate existence; it doesn't mean that `Sarah' or `Andrew' doesn't exist. You arise, persist, and pass away…you exist as a process, ever changing. Metta, James 41143 From: Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, no 1,2. Hi, Nina - I think I didn't get around to replying to this pot, Nina. In a message dated 1/18/05 10:29:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > you always have a good choice of suttas, thank you for sharing. This is what > I like. > I shall tell you what message I get from this sutta. And what is the message > you get? > =========================== I believe the message I get is the same as you: The importance of exerting effort, the possibility of doing so, and, most of all, encouragement. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41144 From: Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, no 1,2. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/20/05 10:19:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I think I didn't get around to replying to this pot, Nina. > ==================== The intended word was 'post', not 'pot'!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41145 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Dear Sarah, Can I be of further help with with aasaya and anusaya? I also have it on the tape I made. Aasaya denotes good and bad dispositions, and anusaya denotes seven particular kinds of akusala that are called latent tendencies. Nina. op 19-01-2005 09:01 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > p.s Nina, we both recalled K.Sujin using aasaya to refer to good and bad > tendencies or inclinations and when I went through the tapes before, I > heard the same, but no time to check again now. (Azita may!!). But > perhaps it depends on context. I'll clarify when we next visit Bkk. What I > understood was just like in the quote you gave from the Thai comy under > aasaya, bias dentoting the disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as > clinging, and also good, such as reununciation. 41146 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 131 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 20-01-2005 01:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I'm having a hard time understanding this section. N: Yes, also the Tiika is very condensed, it does not give more info. Also Tiika to 132 and 133 is short. Tiika 134 about phassa is long. L: Is the meaning that > sankara cetasikas combine themselves or other dhammas into a whole? N: I think that the meaning is that they are in one group or khandha. Cetana or kamma (kamma is actually cetana) is the foundation or chief of the cetasikas in this group. L: Is this combination a matter of coordinating cetasikas? N: Cetana coordinates the work of the accompanying cetasikas and in the case of kusala kamma or akusala kamma, it 'wills' kusala or akusala, and thus it has a double task. Tiika Vis. 81: Forming (abhisa.nkhara.na) is accumulating, acquisition of the task, or coordinating, and because volition is principal in both ways, it is said of the aggregate of formations that it has the characteristic of forming. N: Of the khandha of formations, sankhaarakkhandha, volition is principal (Dispeller of Delusion, p. 22). Volition has its own task and it also coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas. Volition is a universal cetasika accompanying each citta. It arises with the cittas of the four jaatis of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. The word sa"nkharoti also means to prepare, to condition. L: For "agglomeration" you gave the meaning of "heap". A heap is a group, as in "khandha". > What's the difference between a heap and a whole? N: We read in the ŒDispeller of Delusion² 9I, Ch One, Classification of the Aggregates, p. 1) about the meaning of the word khandha. It can be heap (raasi) or category.<...therefore the aggregates (khandhaa) should be understood as having the characteristic of a heap. It is also permissible to say in the sense of a portion (ko.t.thaasa).> The khandhas are classified as past, present, future, and in several other ways. Tiika: N: They are five heaps or categories which are past, present, future, near or far, subtle or coarse. Take seeing: the citta that sees is the khandha of consciousness, and it is accompanied by feeling, sañña and five cetasikas that are included in sankhaarakkhandha, namely: contact, volition, concentration, life faculty and attention. Seeing is also dependent on ruupakkhandha: on eyebase and visible object. The seeing falls away and then it is past. The future becomes the present khandha. The khandhas arise and fall away, they are conditioned dhammas. They are conditioning and conditioned. L: Also it's difficult to resolve the difference between accumulation and > impermanence? N: See above for impermanence. Kamma and good and bad tendencies are accumulated in each citta, and each citta arises and falls away, but it conditions the next citta and so on. Thus accumulations go on from moment to moment, and new kammas and tendencies are accumulated. It goes on from this life to future lives. Accumulation is not contradictory to impermanence. What is accumulated does not stay the same, new accumulations are added all the time. L (from other post):How do we categorize the accumulation of feeling and consciousness? N: Volition and the other sankharakkhandha cetasikas arise together with the other three namakkhandhas. But volition is mentioned separately because it is kamma that is accumulated and can produce a result. Kamma is different from citta and feeling. When using the word accumulation it does not only mean the accumulation of kamma (aayuhana) that produces a result. There is also the word cinaati, and this is said of citta that arranges itself in the continuity of javana in a process. The kusala and akusala javana cittas fall away but they can condition the arising again of similar types of javana cittas by way of natural strong dependence condition. Thus when we use the word accumulation we should also take into account the natural strong dependence condition. The Expositor (p. 84, 85) gives several derivations or word associations of the word citta. Vipaaka citta is also termed citta, because it is accumulated (cito) by kamma and defilements. In the beginning of the chapter on the khandhas the Vis. states that it starts with the consciousness khandha, and then the other khandhas would be understood more easily. We learn about the different types of kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta and also about their conditions. We learnt how different accompanying cetasikas condition the citta. This helps to obtain more understanding of the four namakkhandhas which arise and fall away together. Review of Vis. 81 and Tiika: Tiika: As to the expression, since the rest, beginning with the aggregate of feeling, is easy to understand (when the consciousness aggregate has been understood), this means that this is so because of its single arising etc, and because it is of the same nature etc. in the classification. N: Single arising etc., this means: the four nama khandhas arise and fall away together. For them there are the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution (Dispeller, p. 23). The nama-khandhas that arise together are of the same nature (jaati) of kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. They are of the same plane of citta: sense sphere, rupa-jhana, arupa-jhana or lokuttara. Thus, if the consciousness aggregate is understood first, the other three nama khandhas will be understood more easily. **** Nina. 41147 From: nina Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Pilgrimage India 2 d Pilgrimage India 2 d We have to be truthful in order to understand our own accumulation of akusala. We should remember that the latent tendencies are very tenacious, and that they condition the arising of akusala citta again and again. The arising of akusala is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. Everybody would like to live in a world without wars, but one cannot change the world so long as one does not understand the real cause of akusala. So long as there is the latent tendency of ignorance it conditions the arising of akusala cittas. Citta is the source of good and bad deeds. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching us the real cause of akusala, for teaching us about the latent tendencies and showing how dangerous these tendencies are. In the following suttas the danger is shown of an undeveloped mind. When one neglects mental development, there are conditions for the arising of many kinds of akusala. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Ones (Ch III, § 1-4, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 155-158): ³No other thing do I know, O monks, that is so intractible as an undeveloped mind. An undeveloped mind is, indeed an intractible thing. No other thing do I know, O monks, that is so tractible as a developed mind. A developed mind is, indeed, a tractible thing... No other thing do I know, O monks, that brings so much suffering as an undeveloped and uncultivated mind. An undeveloped and uncultivated mind brings suffering, indeed. No other thing do I know, O monks, that brings so much happiness as a developed and cultivated mind. A developed and cultivated mind brings happiness indeed.² As wisdom develops latent tendencies can be eradicated stage by stage and this means that there will be an end to suffering. The Buddha said that an undeveloped mind brings suffering and a developed mind brings happiness. This is an exhortation not to delay the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears. ***** Nina 41148 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, op 19-01-2005 22:06 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@y...: quotes: N: Yes. But since it is paññaa I do not see how there could be any > doubt. If >> a person has doubt he should ask himself: what do I understand at > this >> moment? > Kel: Vis. XXII 21. Trainers may or may not have the reviewing of > the defilements abandoned and those still remaining. N: I am glad you mention this, I checked it. K: In fact it was > owing to the absense of such reviewing that Mahanama asked the > Blessed One, 'What state is there still unabandoned by me internally > owing to which at times states of greed invade my mind and remain?' > (M.i, 91), all of which should be quoted. N: I compared B.B, translation and notes. The text is clearer when we take into account that Mahanama was a once-returner. The once-returner does not eradicate a particular defilement such as lobha, dosa and moha, he still clings to sense pleasures. But, these have become attenuated. Already at the stage of sotapanna they cannot lead to evil deeds that produce an unhappy rebirth, but at the stage of the once-returner they are attenuated more. At the stage of the non-returner clinging to sense pleasures is eradicated but not all kinds of clinging. Also dosa is eradicated. At the stage of sotapanna particular defilements are eradicated: all kinds of ditthi and wrong practice, doubt, stinginess and jealousy. B.b. in his notes mentions what you say: ariyans can be mistaken about which defielments are abandoned by which path. I admire B.B.'s notes, but he does not say what is a quote from the Co. and what his own observance. I prefer the whole text of the Co, but I do not have this in Thai nor in Pali. I ask Connie. I can understand this text. He does not have coarse clinging but still he enjoys the home life. He wonders what the cause is that he still has clinging. K: I just don't think it's so clear cut in what actually is known to > ariyas of different grades. The only things I see for sure are the > original 10 vipassana-nanas and magga-vithi. N: Yes, these are very clear cut, aren't they? Even at the second stage of tender insight the views of eternalism and annihilation are abandoned, since he sees that what arises because of conditions has to fall away. There is no annihilation of citta, because each citta that falls away conditions the next one. The attainment of the stage of sotapanna is in the suttas also explained as: the clear and dustless eye of dhamma: all that arises by conditions falls away. K: Beyond that I think vithis can happen in any order and different time frames. N: From the Tipitaka I get it that the order of the four stages is fixed, think of the four pairs of men, indicating the magga-cittas and phalacittas of the four stages. Some people could realize one stage after the other, whereas others had intervals of time in between, or different lives. The sotapanna has to develop on and on right understanding of conditioned realities. At each stage of enlightenment the unconditioned element is experienced by lokuttara pañña. This pañña would not confuse conditioned realities with the unconditioned element. Even if in some cases the ariyan does not review the defilements that were eradicated. K: I don't really have much further to say as I think our positions are just different. N: We are here to study and we can share what we got from our study. Nina. 41149 From: nina Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Co. to M. N. I, no 14, to Connie Dear Connie, if it is not too much trouble, could you give me the Co, to M. I, no 14, Sihanadavagga, Cuu.ladukkhakkhandhasutta, just the beginning? Just before the Buddha explains about the pleasures of the senses (adinaava...) I have to check something. Thank you, Nina. 41150 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma, to Ken O. Hi Ken O, I really appreciate your nice post. I agree with you that we learn from those who do not agree with the Abhidhamma. It helps us to learn more. Nina. op 20-01-2005 12:18 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > To all those who dont believe in Abhidhamma, thank you for your > discussion, because you make me learn more about it and have more > faith for it. Keep it up also because I learn from you ;-) 41151 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma Hi Sarah and James, I really I enjoyed your discussion and the input of both of you. Nina. op 20-01-2005 07:49 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > With intense Abhidhamma study, the mind >> is automatically going to label practically every nama and rupa >> experienced and thus ruin the natural insight one could attain. > … > S: I'm not sure, but if there is this labeling or trying to experience > 'every nama and rupa' (or any nama and rupa), it's quite the wrong > handling of the text, I think. 41152 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 0:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Sarah, > enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different > stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta > (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity > with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non- returner > and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and > arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. > > Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these > different attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations." Kel: This argument is at odds with satipatthana stance of momentary concentration being good enough to achieve magga-vithi. I don't see how you can have it both ways. Either both magga and phala are reachable by momentary concentration or they aren't. In the original statement, "factors of different stages of jhana" is the key for me. It does not imply ability to even be absorbed in the first jhana. - kel 41153 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 0:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Nina, > K: In fact it was > > owing to the absense of such reviewing that Mahanama asked the > > Blessed One, 'What state is there still unabandoned by me internally > > owing to which at times states of greed invade my mind and remain?' > > (M.i, 91), all of which should be quoted. > N: I compared B.B, translation and notes. The text is clearer when we take > into account that Mahanama was a once-returner. > At the stage of sotapanna particular defilements are eradicated: all kinds > of ditthi and wrong practice, doubt, stinginess and jealousy. > B.b. in his notes mentions what you say: ariyans can be mistaken about which > defielments are abandoned by which path. > I admire B.B.'s notes, but he does not say what is a quote from the Co. and > what his own observance. I prefer the whole text of the Co, but I do not > have this in Thai nor in Pali. I ask Connie. > I can understand this text. He does not have coarse clinging but still he > enjoys the home life. He wonders what the cause is that he still has > clinging. Kel: The way I see it, it only goes to prove my point. If a once- returner is unsure of what exactly is gotten rid of, how can a stream-enterer? The way you state "reviewing" seems to be exact knowledge of what is eradicated and what is not. My point is, some just don't know. How can there be confusion (??!doubt?!?) if it's a true panna every ariya supposedly have? > K: I just don't think it's so clear cut in what actually is known to > > ariyas of different grades. The only things I see for sure are the > > original 10 vipassana-nanas and magga-vithi. > N: Yes, these are very clear cut, aren't they? Even at the second stage of > tender insight the views of eternalism and annihilation are abandoned, since > he sees that what arises because of conditions has to fall away. There is no > annihilation of citta, because each citta that falls away conditions the > next one. > The attainment of the stage of sotapanna is in the suttas also explained as: > the clear and dustless eye of dhamma: all that arises by conditions falls > away. Kel: It's clear what is known by each tender insight due to their descriptions. But how come people who reached the tender insights (even sankharupekkha) go backs to their akusala ways? So to me magga is nothing more than mature panna that one cannot lose anymore. Every sotapanna no longer have potential to commit akuala that will lead to 4 lower realms and the cetasikas that are source of such actions. That doesn't mean every sotapanna know what has taken place and can declare themselves to be such and such. This would account for the fact you get different kinds of sotapannas with varying degrees of lingering in different lokas. > K: Beyond that I think vithis can happen in any order and different time > frames. > N: From the Tipitaka I get it that the order of the four stages is fixed, > think of the four pairs of men, indicating the magga-cittas and phalacittas > of the four stages. Kel: I was referring to reviewing nanas which some put right after magga-vithi. My point was it can happen right away, many days later or never as they might've already achieved higher maggas. I think it's basic knowledge that 8 happen in order precisely because of the phala cittas following magga citta. < N: At each stage of enlightenment the unconditioned element is > experienced by lokuttara pañña. This pañña would not confuse conditioned > realities with the unconditioned element. Even if in some cases the ariyan > does not review the defilements that were eradicated. Kel: Panna in the magga citta would not confuse, yes. But even arahats are capable of javana cittas without panna. So I don't see how that extends out to overall panna aside from particular vithis. > K: I don't really have much further to say as I think our positions are just > different. > N: We are here to study and we can share what we got from our study. Kel: This particular thread to me is approaching diminishing returns. Because I can't change your mind and I doubt you can change mine. So I prefer to agree to disagree and because school started for me I can't do research into texts. - kel 41154 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Kel: This particular thread to me is approaching diminishing > returns. Because I can't change your mind and I doubt you can > change mine. So I prefer to agree to disagree and because school > started for me I can't do research into texts. > > - kel I just wanted you to know that I agree with you and believe that you have made your point well. It is obvious from the commentary that you quote that a sotapanna isn't necessarily going to know that he/she is a sotapanna- and that the same holds true for the other paths and fruits. BTW, how do you know Pali so well? You are one of the few members who I have seen who is able to use Pali in an unpretentious way- just as if you are using natural speech rather than showing off- and it truly amazes me. What is your background? (If you don't mind my asking). How can I learn what you know??? Metta, James 41155 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:30pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: and that the same holds true for the other > paths and fruits. Oops…I should have qualified this: except for an arahant. An arahant, according to the suttas, does know that he/she is an arahant. Metta, James 41156 From: Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Vism.XIV,132 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 132. They have the characteristic of forming. Their function is to accumulate. They are manifested as intervening.58 Their proximate cause is the remaining three [immaterial] aggregates. So according to characteristic, etc., they are singlefold. And according to kind they are threefold, namely, (I) profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate. As regards these, when associated with profitable consciousness they are profitable, when associated with unprofitable consciousness they are unprofitable, when associated with indeterminate consciousness they are indeterminate. ---------------------- Note 58. Vipphaara--'intervening' here is explained by Pm. (p.484) as vyaapaara (interest or work); not in this sense in P.T.S. Dict. See Ch. VI, n.6. Ch. VI, note 6. Vipphandana--'wrong kind of excitement': Pm. says here 'Kilesaparipphandanass' eva nimitta.m hotii ti attho (the meaning is, it becomes the sign for interference by (activity of) defilement' (Pm.170). Phandati and vipphandati are both given only such meanings as 'to throb, stir, twitch' and paripphandati is not in P.T.S. Dict. For the sense of wrong (vi) excitement (phandana) cf. Ch. IV,89, and Ch. XIV,132 and note. There seems to be an association of meaning between vipphaara, vyaapaara, vipphandana, ihaka, and paripphandana (perhaps also aabhoga) in the general senses of interestedness, activity, concern, interference, intervention, etc. 41157 From: Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,132 "They [sankhara cetasikas] are manifested as intervening." Hi Nina, Htoo, and Kel, I was wondering if Burmese or Thai Pali dictionaries can clarify this word "vipphaara" or "vyaapaara" here translated as "intervening". Larry 41158 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Ken O, This was a timely post. Like you, I thank past conditions for allowing me to appreciate the Abhidhamma. It can be tempting to believe we are 'practitioners of samatha and vipassana' - more so that we are 'jhana masters and Sotapannas.' But the truth is far less flattering, and the Abhidhamma makes that clear. You and I can at least face the ugly truth. Thank conditions! :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi RobK > it is extremely difficult to have faith in the Abhidhamma > and I thank my conditions for having me to know them. And I thank > you, Sarah, Nina, Jon, Sukin and all the dinosuars for the willings > to share and patient to teach me these valuable materials. 41159 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:40pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 103 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (o) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** We are forgetful of realities very often, but reminders to be aware are right at hand. We can be reminded to be aware when we notice our own as well as other people's clinging to all objects and the sorrow caused by clinging. In the Kindred Sayings (III, First Fifty, Chapter 3, §23, Understanding) we read that the five khandhas, that is all conditioned realities which appear in our life, have to be understood as they are. We read that the Buddha, while he was at Såvatthí, said to the monks: * "Monks, I will show you things that are to be understood, likewise understanding. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, are the things to be understood? Body, monks, is a thing to be understood; feeling is a thing to be understood; perception, the activities (saòkhårakkhandha) and consciousness also. These, monks, are 'the things that are to be understood.' And what, monks, is 'understanding?' The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of illusion; that, monks, is called 'understanding'." * If there is awareness and understanding right now of seeing, hearing or any other reality which appears, there will eventually be an end to rebirth. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41160 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Kel, Nina & James, I'd like to butt in here too: --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > K: In fact it was > > > owing to the absense of such reviewing that Mahanama asked the > > > Blessed One, 'What state is there still unabandoned by me > internally > > > owing to which at times states of greed invade my mind and > remain?' > > > (M.i, 91), all of which should be quoted. … S: It's a very interesting point and sutta you've raised Kel and I'm very impressed like James with your familiarity with the texts. While Nina is looking further into the commentary on the sutta itself, let me add the following from the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha (PTS transl, STA, ch9, Meditation Practice) which gives further detail. (I'm adding a little more text at the beginning, so some others can follow the discussion too) *** On Magga citta (Path consciousness): "…the path enters the process of absorption fully understanding the truth of suffering, abandoning the truth of arising, realizing the truth of cessation, and by way of cultivation of the truth that is the path." Commentary details follow: " 'Fully understanding (parijaanato): knowing precisely (parichijja) that exactly this is suffering, nothing more nor less….." etc On Phala cittas (Fruition consciousness): "After that, two or three fruit consciousnesses occur and cease, and after that, there is lapsing into the existence continuum [until] the reviewing knowledges occur, once again interrupting the existence-continuum." Commentary details follow, inc. " 'Reviewing knowledges': sense-sphere knowledges which have the path and fruit,etc, as their objects, and with reference to which it is stated 'once liberated, there is the knowledge that one is liberated'. [Vin1 14, S 111 68 - a formula occurring in many places]." *** S: So, I think it's clear that there can be no ignorance of enlightenment having taken place. However, many of Kel's other points regarding defilements are confirmed by these notes: *** More on Paccavekkha.na cittas (Reviewing consciousness): "One who is wise reviews the path, the fruit and then nibbana; he may or may not review the defilements abandoned and those remaining. Cultivated in this way by the six progressive purifications, the fourfold path is called 'purification by knowing and seeing'." Commentary details follow here in full with reference to Mahanama: "Now in order to indicate the level of reviewing, he states the words beginning 'the path, the fruit'. Therein, 'one who is wise reviews the path', thinking, 'this is the path by which I have come'; then he reviews its 'fruit', thinking, 'This indeed is the benefit I have obtained', and then 'nibbana', thinking, 'This dhamma I have realized directly as an object'. Then 'he may or may not review' the defilements abandoned, thinking, 'These are the defilements I have abandoned', and the defilements remaining, thinking, 'These are the ones that remain'. Some trainees review, some do not; what is meant is that this practice depends on one's wish. Indeed, this is why Mahanama the Sakyan asked about the defilements that were not abandoned: 'What is the state, lord, that I have not abandoned inside?' [M1 91; Vism 676 (ch X11,210] For the arahat, however, there is no reviewing of defilements that remain since all defilements have been abandoned. Therefore it should be seen that there are nineteen reviewing knowledges: fifteen for the three trainees and four four the arahat. 'By the six progressive purifications': by progressing through the six purifications, namely the two purifications of conduct and consciousness, which constitute the roots, and the four beginning with the purification of view, which constitute the trunk. It is called the purification of knowing and seeing because of knowing the four truths by direct experience and being purified of the stain of the defilements." *** S: So I think it's clear that if there is not the reviewing of the defilements abandoned, then there isn't this direct knowledge. When it refers to 'thinking' for reviewing, I understand this is direct knowledge, not thinking conceptually. It depends what conditions there are for the sekkhas (trainees) to put their minds to, so to speak. I'm grateful to you, Kel, for raising this whole topic and look forward to anything further any of you add. Metta, Sarah ======= 41161 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies dear Nina, Sarah and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Can I be of further help with with aasaya and anusaya? I also have it on the > tape I made. Aasaya denotes good and bad dispositions, and anusaya denotes > seven particular kinds of akusala that are called latent tendencies. > Nina. Azita: thx, this answers my original question about good latent tendencies. I haven't heard that part of the disc yet, so maybe when I come to it, there will be more understanding - who knows! regarding the discussion in the garden of Clarks Hotel; the matter about doorways bothered me before but I had one of those 'ah ha's. The doorway for the mind door being the bhvanga citta just prior to the manodvaracitta - think I've got the terminology correct! It kind of 'fell into place' - maybe that makes no sense to anyone but me, but just thought i'd tell you about that one :-) > op 19-01-2005 09:01 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > > p.s Nina, we both recalled K.Sujin using aasaya to refer to good and bad > > tendencies or inclinations and when I went through the tapes before, I > > heard the same, but no time to check again now. (Azita may!!). But > > perhaps it depends on context. I'll clarify when we next visit Bkk. What I > > understood was just like in the quote you gave from the Thai comy under > > aasaya, bias dentoting the disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as > > clinging, and also good, such as reununciation. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41162 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, On the other difficult thread: --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of > different > > stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the > phalacitta > > (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in > conformity > > with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non- > returner > > and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna > and > > arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. > > > > Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these > > different attainments, depending on the individual¹s > accumulations." > > Kel: This argument is at odds with satipatthana stance of > momentary concentration being good enough to achieve magga-vithi. I > don't see how you can have it both ways. …. S: I'm not sure why you say this. I'd be glad to hear more. As I read the texts, for sukkha vipassakas (dry insight attainers) experience nibbana with magga-vithi of the degree of absorption (because of nibbana being the object), but not with jhana cittas. As discussed in the last post, two or three phala cittas follow the magga citta immediately and then the paccavekkhana cittas (reviewing consciousness). But for these sukkha vipassakas, there can be no further phala samapatti or nirodha samapatti (even for anagamis or arahants). I'm really not very familiar with these areas, so pls anyone correct any mistakes. Htoo has explained the details very thoroughly in some of his DT series, which doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed and questioned further! …. >Either both magga and > phala are reachable by momentary concentration or they aren't. …. S: It is momentary concentration all the way, including at moments of vipassana nana (insights), but as we read, just the magga vithi is accompanied by concentration of the equivalent degree of jhana (although it's not the same as mundane jhana). See the extract from BB's article below.on this point*. … >In > the original statement, "factors of different stages of jhana" is > the key for me. It does not imply ability to even be absorbed in > the first jhana. …. S: I think by jhana factors here, it is referring to those factors arising with jhana cittas themselves, as Htoo put it 'in the vicinity' of lokuttara cittas, I think. (the object of jhana and lokuttara cittas being quite different). Again, I think that I'm on the same page as Htoo on this and would encourage you to read the posts under 'Fruition' in U.P. too. It's a bit of a minefield and rather beyone me for the most part, I'm afraid. So I'd better hand it back to Htoo , Nina and yourself!! Btw, I thought you and KenH were having a good and important discussion and it's fine to end up disagreeing as you did. Your input is very welcome and refreshing too! Metta, Sarah *From BB's article: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34163 Quote: This distinction allows the Commentaries to hold simultaneously two theses regarding the relation of jhaana to the path: (i) every path and fruition attainment, from the stage of stream-entry up, is also a jhaana, and thus all path-attainers are attainers of supramundane jhaana; (ii) not all path-attainers have reached jhaana in the preliminary path leading up to the supramundane path, and thus they need not be attainers of mundane (or form-sphere) jhaana. These two theses can be reconciled because the paths and fruits always occur at a level of concentration corresponding to one of the four jhaanas and thus may be considered jhaanas in their own right, though jhaanas of the supramundane rather than mundane type. These jhaanas are quite distinct from the mundane jhaanas, the exalted states of concentration pertaining to the form-sphere (ruupaavacara). As all path-attainers necessarily attain supramundane jhaana, they fulfil the definition of right concentration in the Noble Eightfold Path, but they may not have attained the form-sphere jhaanas prior to reaching the path. =========== 41163 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > This was a timely post. Like you, I thank past conditions for > allowing me to appreciate the Abhidhamma. It can be tempting to > believe we are 'practitioners of samatha and vipassana' - more so > that we are 'jhana masters and Sotapannas.' But the truth is far > less flattering, and the Abhidhamma makes that clear. You and I can > at least face the ugly truth. Thank conditions! :-) > Ken H Hi Ken H, Ken O and all Three remarks, for the last time of me, about the history of the Abhidhamma: To Ken H I will say: is it correct to say "I THANK PAST CONDITIONS (for allowing me to appreciate the Abhidhamma)" ? I don't think so, for me that expression is too much like "Thank God". And the expression "Thank God" is many times used on a hypocritical way. To Ken O I will say: Between the group of people who know that Abhidhamma is taught by the Buddha and all those who don't believe in Abhidhamma there is a third group: those who think Abhidhamma really touches the highest reality and who think the scholars who state the seven books of it are composed in the centuries after the parinibbana of the Buddha. To everyone who think that I was one of the conditions that helped them to appriciate more intense the Abhidhamma, by my opinion that thee books are composed by wise and noble followers of the Buddha, I will say: "You're welcome" Metta Joop 41164 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > BTW, how do you know Pali so well? You are one of the few members > who I have seen who is able to use Pali in an unpretentious way- > just as if you are using natural speech rather than showing off- and > it truly amazes me. What is your background? (If you don't mind my > asking). How can I learn what you know??? Thanks for the reply off-list. I also replied to you off-list. Take care. Metta, James 41165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, op 17-01-2005 17:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: >> N: >> Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up >> (vu.t.thaana) to magga. > > T: Could you please explain the term vu.t.thaana a bit? Is the strength of > vipassana the same as strength (bala) of the five indriyas? N: Vipassana is understanding, pañña that knows dhammas as they are. It has many levels. When the three characteristics are clearly penetrated by pañña an it is highly developed to the degree that enlightenment can be attained, also all the other enlightenment factors have reached fulfillment. The five indriyas are included in the enlightenment factors and these have become powerful. Vu.t.thaana: emergence. Vis. XXI, 83, insight leading to emergence. When insight has reached culmination, it goes towards emergence, namely Path-consciousness. >> N: When we just read the translation above it would seem that >> concentration is a foremost factor for vipassana. >> But there is more to it, the matter is more complex. > > T: Do you mean that both concentration as samadhi (stillness of mind), > and concentration as a factor of the enlightenment (samadhi > sambojjhanga) are requisites for vipassana? Or is there more to it? N: When vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of those who do not develop jhana. After all, samadhi is a factor of the eightfold Path when it accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path and it develops together with right understanding. >> N: As to knowledge, vijjaa and freedom, vimutti, >> the Co explains that this refers to wisdom of the arahatta magga >> and that freedom is phalavimutti, the freedom of >> the fruition of the arahatta. > > T: In other words, does the Co mean that direct knowledge is only > experienced by the Arahat? N: In this context these are the meanings as given above . It depends on the context. There are many levels of vijja, understanding. Of course it has a beginning level. Even the Buddha had to begin at one point in time. T: If that's true, then the ordinary people can > never hope to train for direct knowledge by jumping on the vipassana > wagon without prior trainings in purifications of virtues, consciousness > (samadhi) and views (ditthi)? N: There is not a special order of training as I see it. There are many levels of sila, and this also includes the guarding of the six doors, thus, satipatthana or vipassana. This is what I wrote before: Through satipatthåna there can be training in ³higher síla² (adhi-síla sikkhå), ³higher citta² (adhi-citta sikkhå) and ³higher wisdom² (adhi-paññå sikkhå). As to higher citta or concentration, this includes all levels of concentration, not merely jhåna. Concentration, samådhi, is the cetasika which is one-pointedness, ekaggatå cetasika. It arises with each citta and has the function of focussing the citta on one object. When satipatthåna arises, ekkagatå cetasika ³concentrates² for that short moment on the nåma or rúpa which appears so that understanding of that reality can develop. In the development of samatha concentration is developed to a high degree so that jhåna can be attained, but this cannot be achieved without paññå which has right understanding of the citta and cetasikas which develop calm. In the ³Visuddhimagga² all levels of concentration, jhåna included, are described, but this does not mean that everybody must develop jhåna in order to attain enlightenment. Instead of thinking of classifications and names or thinking of a specific order as to the development of síla, concentration and paññå, we can gradually develop understanding of the nåma and rúpa which appear and then there is training in higher síla, higher citta and higher paññå. Even when attachment arises there can be mindfulness of it and at that moment one does not harm anyone; that is síla. Or we may be inclined to engage in wrong speech, such as slandering or useless speech, but if sati arises and it is aware of nåma or rúpa, there are conditions to abstain from akusala. We speak many times in a day, but do we know whether our speech is kusala or akusala? We need to know the nature of citta so that there can be training in higher síla. We are inclined to observe síla with an idea of self who has síla. When satipatthåna is being developed síla can become free from the wrong view of self. Then there will be purity of síla, ³síla visuddhi². Nina. 41166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,132, vipphaara Hi Larry, op 21-01-2005 01:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "They [sankhara cetasikas] are manifested as intervening." > I was wondering if Burmese or Thai Pali dictionaries can clarify this > word "vipphaara" or "vyaapaara" here translated as "intervening". N: Intervening I find not clear in this context and I rather follow the Tiika. vipphaara, diffusion, pervasion. vi-pharati: to expand. vyaapaara: occupation, work. Vyaapaara or byaapaara, v and b vary, the pronunciation is about in the middle of b and v. Now we have to return again to Tiika Vis. 81: byaapaaraa /patti/ , /abhisandahana.m/ vaa/ , /ubhayathaapi/cetanaapadhaanataaya /work/ acquisition/ /coordinating/ /or/ /also in both ways/by volition being the principle/ Tiika: Forming is accumulating, acquisition of the task, or coordinating, and because volition is principal in both ways, it is said of the aggregate of formations that it has the characteristic of forming. *** Volition accumulates and it also coordinates the task of the other nama dhammas, thus, it has two functions. When it accompanies vipaakacitta or kiriyacitta it merely coordinates the work of the other nama dhammas, it does not accumulate. I find the note to Ch VI the translator refers to not very helpful. Nina. 41167 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:55am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Sarah, Let's take Abhidhamma classification into 5 basic jhanas. The only difference between 5th rupa jhana and 4 arupa jhanas is the object; the mental factors accompanying the jhanas cittas are the same. Similiarly, 1st rupa jhana and 1st-jhana based 8 lokuttara magga/phalas (in 121) have the same factors, just a different object. So one can call them lokuttara jhanas, it's just a naming convention to make things consistent (or prove sama samadhi). The way I see your argument is, magga can be achieved without mundane jhanas but phala-samapatti cannot be. Is that right? Otherwise we're just arguing about the name and definition of jhana. When I write jhana, I mean mundane jhanas. Obviously if you also include lokuttara cittas in the word jhana then there would be no argument. >S: But for these sukkha vipassakas, there can be no further phala > samapatti or nirodha samapatti (even for anagamis or arahants). Kel: I think you're combining phala-samapatti and niroda-sampatti unncessarily. Here's a reference by mahai sayadaw about phala- samapatti. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch7.18 His method is basically to meditate on the three lakkhanas until "power of concentration has reached perfection". This is achieving absorption concentration by using lakkhanas as objects as oppose to nimittas. The way and the skill acquired by meditator is the same because it mostly concerns samadhi. So if one is already skilled in mundane jhanas before becoming an ariya, it'll be easy to reach phala-samapatti. For dry-insight workers, they can use the lakkhanas to practice and maintain phala-samapatti without mundane jhanas and nimittas. Without mastery of all 5 rupa and 4 arupa jhanas, there's no possibilty of obtaining nirodha samapatti for anagamis and arahats. There's no arguing about that as it's crystal clear in the texts. To me, phala and nirodha samapattis are MILES apart in terms of the skill required to obtain and you can't combine them. Again phala-samapatti just requires an ability to acquire the object (nibbana) and to stay absorbed in the object. This is very much the same sequence as mundane jhana acquiring the object (nimitta) and to stay absorbed. Nirodha has no object because there's no citta hence no sanna, beating 4th arupa jhana's "sorta- sanna". - kel 41168 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:17pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Dear Htoo > > I'm sure you are not writing and publishing for your own fame, not > for self-promotion. > And now I understand how you write your Dhanmma Threads. > > > Joop : I don't know you know it and like it but I like the > book 'Buddhism without beliefs' of Stephen Batchelor > Htoo: How can I access that book. If I have time, I will read it. > Joop: See www.stephenbatchelor.org and the online article > deepagnosticism and that site. > > > Htoo: Do you think there are flaws in Dhamma Threads? > Joop: That's a difficult question, that's why I give two answers > a. Your knowledge is hundred or thousands times mine, so how can I > say if there are flaws, compared with the Dhamma in the texts (1 till > 10) you mentioned ? > b. To me in the Abhidhamma and commentaries one citta is missing; I > made a message (#39844) of that opinion to Sarah and she labeled it > (in # 40035) the "Joop social citta", of course she stated that there > is no need of such a citta. > > > Joop: To me there is a fourth: "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto > yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with > the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no > other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this > means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the > way the Buddha said. … > Htoo: It is wrong to say 4th refuge. There are 3 refuge. All these 3 > are within self-refuge. The Buddha showed the way. The Dhamma paves > the way. The Sangha bring the map. Whoever shows the way, the walker > is > self. That is nself-refuge. This is not to be mixed with 3 refuges. > They are not the same kind. Not the same level. > Do you think that your self is equal to The Buddha, The Dhamma, The > Sangha? > But in triplegem The Buddha = The Dhamma = The Sangha > When The Dhamma is seen The Buddha is seen. When The Dhamma is > attained Sanghahood is attained. > > Joop (now): You say "It is wrong to say 4th refuge." I will say: I > know it's not perfectly expressed what I did mean. > Of course I don't think that my self is equal to the Buddha, The > Dhamma, The Sangha. > But do you say my interpretation of the DN16 quote "trust yourself, > under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said." is > wrong ? > > For the rest: thanks again > > Metta > > Joop --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, I think our communication is good and effective. Your this post is understandable and I do not think there need a reply. But if there is anyting that you would like to discuss just post it and I will be involved. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41169 From: nina Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:28pm Subject: sutta and abhidhamma Dear Joop, I have been reflecting on your remarks that you like the narrative style of the suttas but find little inspiration in Abhidhamma, especially in the way it is presented here. You have the impression that it is not based on experience. Thus, reading your post today, you appreciate the Abhidhamma but not the way some people, including me, present it. That is food for thought. You also found the terms kusala and akusala not clear. You are perhaps wondering who tells us what is good or bad, and I understand this. Important questions and I find it useful to consider them. We could consider kusala as: skilfull, beneficial, leading to happy results, and akusala is the opposite. These are terms, but we could verify them in daily life. When we give things for the benefit of others or we are helping others, we can ask ourselves: are such moments different from stinginess or anger? I believe that there is inner peace with kusala and there is agitation with akusala. Kusala and akusala cannot bring the same kind of result, the results must be different. I came across the words of the Dhammapada which you may find helpful: Kusala and akusala have the mind (citta) as their source. I discussed with Lodewijk your remark that we speak about the Abhidhamma without doubt and that you find this uninspiring. We can understand this. Lodewijk said that this is the Western way of approach, one should not be so dead sure about everything. I had the same ideas when I first came to Kh. Sujin, I was wondering, why is she so sure, having no doubts. I also thought that it is good to have doubts. Being a Catholic, like you, I had studied modern catholic philosophers who were existentialists and phenomenologists, and I was still full of those thinkers. Then I started to study the Abhidhamma and found all that I learnt very direct, pertaining to my daily life and very helpful. But nobody else can tell a person to study the Abhidhamma. It can be an inner conviction: this is the word of the Teacher. As to sutta and Abhidhamma: I find the more I read suttas the more I see Abhidhamma in the suttas. We do not have to consider the Abhidhamma as a book, but whenever the sutta speaks about eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind and the objects experienced by means of these we can understand that the sutta speaks about realities of daily life we can experience now. These are conditioned and they are non-self. This is Abhidhamma and then we may find it less dry. Daily life and Abhidhamma, we can begin to see their connection. But again, everyone should find this out for himself. Here we come to your remark that you find that the way it is presented lacks empirism. We learn that cittas experience objects through the different doorways. It may be helpful to consider that the eyedoor is not the eardoor, visible object is not sound. This sounds too simple, but it is something we can verify. But I understand that this is not appealing to everybody. Of course, the seven books of the Abhidhamma are complicated and difficult to study, but we can study the main principles. Therefore a book like "Guide to the Abhidhamma" (Abhidhammattha Sangaha) is helpful. These are only a few thoughts. Nina. 41170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bhavanga and mind-door. Dear Azita, I just heard my MP3 about doorways and the mind-door. Kh Sujin was explaining that there must be bhavangacittas between seeing and hearing, otherwise we would see, see, see all the time. Before there is thinking through the mind-door there must be vibrating bhavanga, and soon the object of bhavanga must be abandoned (thrown away, 'thing' in Thai) otherwise there would be the stream of bhavanga on and on. However, there cannot be thinking immediately, there must first be a last bhavangacitta, the arrest bhavanga. This is citta niyama, the fixed order of citta. This last bhavanga is the mind-door, the doorway of the mind-door process cittas that experience an object different from the object of the bhavangacittas. Bhavanga is like being fast asleep. It arises all the time between processes. Thus our life is all the time: being awake, being asleep, being awake, being asleep. This helps us to see how short enjoyment (sanug) in life is, it is interrupted by bhavanga all the time. I like the explanation, Kh Sujin keeps the subject connected with daily life. Nina. op 21-01-2005 10:10 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > the > matter about doorways bothered me before but I had one of those 'ah > ha's. The doorway for the mind door being the bhvanga citta just > prior to the manodvaracitta - think I've got the terminology correct! > It kind of 'fell into place' - maybe that makes no sense to > anyone but me, but just thought i'd tell you about that one :-) 41171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Sarah, thank you, everything is clearer now. I am glad you quoted the T.A. And the text that one is sure to be liberated when one is. What I still do not understand: the sotapanna must know that wrong view is eradicated. Thus, when there is no reviewing, this does not mean that the sotapanna does not know what has been eradicated. Nina. op 21-01-2005 09:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Commentary details follow, inc. " Reviewing knowledges': sense-sphere > knowledges which have the path and fruit,etc, as their objects, and with > reference to which it is stated once liberated, there is the knowledge > that one is liberated'. [Vin1 14, S 111 68 - a formula occurring in many > places] 41172 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:52pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (241) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. This matter would be a bit unreal for some people and they may not believe that there are 31 realms because they cannot directly see these 31 realms. There are people who would not believe what they cannot experinece. But in this matter they would not test for themselves because they will have to go to those realms if they have to believe those realms. This may need to fulfil to go to hell realm, animal realm, peta realm, asurakaya realm by doing akusala or bad things. And they will have to do jhana things to experience brahmahood or they will have to do things that would give rise to rebirth in deva realms if they want to experience devahood. The Buddha preached that there are 31 realms. And the patisandhi cittas that cause rebirth in these 31 realms. When cittas are not in process they are said to be process free and they are called vithi mutta cittas. These cittas indicate the sattas as they will be accepted conventionally. In Abhidhammatthasangaha this portion is called vithi-mutta sangaha and it deals with 31 realms and their implications. In that portion there are '4 sets of 4' or 'catu-catukka'. They are 1. patisandhi catukka or '4 kinds of rebirth' 2. bhumi catukka or ' 4 kinds of realm or sphere' 3. kamma catukka or '4 kinds of kamma' 4. marana-uppatti catukka or ' 4 kinds of arising of death' 4 kinds of rebirth are 1. apaya patisandhi or '1 woeful rebirth' 2. kama sugati patisandhi or '9 kamma good-rebirth' 3. rupa patisandhi or '5 rupa-deva rebirth' 4. arupa patisandhi or '4 arupa-deva rebirth' ----------------------------------------------- total patisandhi = 19 patisandhi (rebirth) There are 4 kinds of bhumi. They are 1. apaya bhumi or ' 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes' 2. kama sugati bhumis or ' 7 kama sugati bhumis' 3. rupa bhumis or '16 rupa brahma bhumis' 4. arupa bhumis or ' 4 arupa brahma bhumis' ------------------------------------------------------- total bhmuis = 31 bhumis 4 apaya bhumis are 1. hell realm or niriya bhumi 2. animal realm or tiracchanna bhumi 3. hungry ghost realm or peta bhumi 4. demon realm or asurakaya bhumi 7 kama sugati bhmus are (in ascending order) 1. human realm or manussa bhumi 2. catumaharajika bhumi or 4-deva-kings realm 3. tavatimsa bhumi or realm of 33 4. yama bhumi 5. tusita bhumi 6. nimmanarati bhumi 7. paranimmita-vassavati bhumi 16 rupa brahma bhumis ( decending order) 16.akanittha, 15.sudassii, 14.sudassaa, 13.atappas, 12.avihaa 11.asannisatta, 10.vehapphala 9.subhakinhna, 8.appamanaasubha, 7.parittaasubhaa 6.aabhassara, 5.appamanaabhaa, 4.parittaabhaa 3.maha-brahma, 2.brahma-purohita, 1.brahmaparisajja The uppermost 5 are separate realms and they are called 5 pure abode or 5 suddha-vaasa bhumis. They all are ariyas and they are anagamis or arahats. They are equated with catuttha jhana bhumis because the concentration in these brahmas are equate-able with catuttha jhanas. After exclusion of these 5 realms, many lives in the past of The Buddha Gotama had been in any of remaining realms. These also include 4 woeful planes, 4 arupa bhumis, 11 rupa brahma bhumis [after exclusion of 5 suddha-vaasa bhumis from 16 rupa brahma bhumis], and 7 kama sugati bhumis. Sammasambuddha will never have been reborn in any of 5 suddhavaasa bhumis or 5 pure abode. Because these bhumis are reborn with already enlightened mind up to 3rd stage. Sammasambuddhas attain all their enlightenments in their last life. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41173 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Nina - I apolgize for jumping to conclusion about what you thought with respect to a few things as seen in the following quotes from the earlier messgage. N: I meant to say: anything that is real and appears can be object of vipassana, thus also thinking. N: If that would not be the case one would try and try to concentrate on nama and rupa, but that would not help. Pannaa has to see them as conditioned, not caused by a self. ------------------------------------- N: Tep, thanks for the article, but now I cannot read it, it is too long. Could you give a summary and render especially what you yourself think about it. T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was translated from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is intent on watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from taking on outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will be taken care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way will eventually become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. This is the same idea in the Potthila Thera's story. Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Perhaps I have to clarify a little more what I said. 41174 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: - the cycle and the arahat, Htoo. Dear Nina - In message # 41102 you kindly answer one of my questions about Sotapanna. N: Tep's remark whether it is just sufficient to understand D.O. in order to become a sotapanna: For us worldlings the links of the D.O. are merely names, we have not realized the true nature of dhammas. All stages of insight up to enlightenment have to be realized in order to understand the true meaning of D.O. For instance, we do not realize what seeing is. Seeing is vipakacitta, it is pure nama, not mixed with rupa. We confuse seeing and visible object. Although they are together they have different characteristics, and only sati sampajañña can realize these one at a time. At the second stage of tender insight there is a growing understanding of kamma and vipaka, dhammas are seen as conditioned realities. The D.O. is also an explanation of the second and third noble Truth: clinging (the cause of dukkha) and the cessation of dukkha. T: Thank you very much for pointing out that the worlding's level of D.O. understanding just consists of labels associated with definitions and logical relationship among them; while the Noble disciple's understanding of D.O. requires realization of "all stages of insight up to enlightenment". N: The sotapanna has clearly understood the four noble Truths. Thus, all stages of insight knowledge have to be realized before the D.O. can be truly understood. T: The Vera Sutta does not specifically states that all stages of insight knowledge must be realized before the D.O. can be "truly understood". Looking at the description of the D.O. knowledge in the Vera Sutta, I think it is not deep -- there is no clue that relates to "all stages of insight knowledge". Here is how it goes: "And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment? "There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that. [endquote] Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo and Tep, > I try to add something about D.O. and this is also connected with Tep's Q. > whether it is sufficient to understand the D.O, to become a sotapanna. 41175 From: Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,132, vipphaara Hi Nina, Could we translate "sankhara manifest as vyaapaara" as "coordinators (motivators?) manifest as constructive activity" (aka 'work')? By 'constructive' I mean both 'goal oriented' with an implicit link to lobha because of the association between 'intend' and 'desire', and additive in the sense of combining elements into a group. I think the difference between a heap and a whole is that in a heap the various elements are not connected but in a whole the various elements are _conceptually_ connected. In this sense sankhara cetasikas construct a 'person', either rightly or wrongly understood. 'Constructive activity' also has to have a future fruitional sense of consequences of that activity in order to account for kamma via intention. It seems to be the unique characteristic of intention that it has future consequences. It looks like 'accumulation' is used in two senses in the analysis of sankhara: 1. accumulation in the sense of storing-up kamma and habits, and 2. in the sense of forming a (seemingly?) integrated group of elements. It is a little difficult to understand whether 'accumulation' in either sense refers to a reality. My guess is that it refers to a plurality of realities or dhammas (realities and concepts). Larry -------------------------- N: "Intervening I find not clear in this context and I rather follow the Tiika. vipphaara, diffusion, pervasion. vi-pharati: to expand. vyaapaara: occupation, work." 41176 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:30pm Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Nina - I am glad to read your message # 41165 which is a detailed explanation of things that were unclear to me in the past. The passage from one of your publications is a great piece of work -- it gives me another perspective on samadhi and training in higher sila, etc.. What is the title of this publication? You use the term satipatthana rather than sati (mindfulness) or samma- sati. Is there a special meaning about satipatthana beyond the Four Foundations of Mindfulness [DN 22]? N: When vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of those who do not develop jhana. After all, samadhi is a factor of the eightfold Path when it accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path and it develops together with right understanding. T: Is sama-nana the Pali for "right understanding"? There is no samma- nana in the Eightfold Path and neither samma-ditthi nor samma- sankhappa is a good fit for right understanding, at least from my understanding. Further, what are the suttas that support the statement, "when vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of those who do not develop jhana."? I only know the suttas that say samma-samadhi supports samma-nana (i.e. vipassana-nana). I am grateful for your dhamma dana that has helped me become less ignorant (although I am not free from doubts, yet). Kindest regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 17-01-2005 17:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > >> N: > >> Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up > >> (vu.t.thaana) to magga. > > 41177 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi, Sarah, Kel, Nina, James and others As a matter of interest, the BB/Narada translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha ('A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma') has a similar passage. Chapter IX deals with the 7 Stages of Purification, the last of which, Purification of Knowledge and Vision, refers to the attainment of stream-entry. At par. 34 of Ch. IX (p.354) the text describes the moments leading up to the arising of magga citta, followed by two or three moments of phala citta, then subsidence into bhavanga citta. It continues: 'Then, arresting the life-continuum, reviewing knowledge occurs. The wise person reviews the path, fruit, Nibbaana, and he either reviews or does not review the defilements destroyed and the remaining defilements.' It seems that all attainers review the path, fruit and Nibbaana. I note also that the 4 functions of magga citta include as their third the *realisation* (i.e., more than mere 'experiencing') of Nibbaana. Jon sarah abbott wrote: >S: ... let me add the >following from the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha (PTS transl, >STA, ch9, Meditation Practice) which gives further detail. (I'm adding a >little more text at the beginning, so some others can follow the >discussion too) >*** >On Magga citta (Path consciousness): > >"…the path enters the process of absorption fully understanding the truth >of suffering, abandoning the truth of arising, realizing the truth of >cessation, and by way of cultivation of the truth that is the path." > >Commentary details follow: " 'Fully understanding (parijaanato): knowing >precisely (parichijja) that exactly this is suffering, nothing more nor >less….." etc > >On Phala cittas (Fruition consciousness): > >"After that, two or three fruit consciousnesses occur and cease, and after >that, there is lapsing into the existence continuum [until] the reviewing >knowledges occur, once again interrupting the existence-continuum." > >Commentary details follow, inc. " 'Reviewing knowledges': sense-sphere >knowledges which have the path and fruit,etc, as their objects, and with >reference to which it is stated 'once liberated, there is the knowledge >that one is liberated'. [Vin1 14, S 111 68 - a formula occurring in many >places]." >*** >S: So, I think it's clear that there can be no ignorance of enlightenment >having taken place. However, many of Kel's other points regarding >defilements are confirmed by these notes: >*** >More on Paccavekkha.na cittas (Reviewing consciousness): > >"One who is wise reviews the path, the fruit and then nibbana; he may or >may not review the defilements abandoned and those remaining. > >Cultivated in this way by the six progressive purifications, the fourfold >path is called 'purification by knowing and seeing'." > >Commentary details follow here in full with reference to Mahanama: > >"Now in order to indicate the level of reviewing, he states the words >beginning 'the path, the fruit'. Therein, 'one who is wise reviews the >path', thinking, 'this is the path by which I have come'; then he reviews >its 'fruit', thinking, 'This indeed is the benefit I have obtained', and >then 'nibbana', thinking, 'This dhamma I have realized directly as an >object'. > >Then 'he may or may not review' the defilements abandoned, thinking, >'These are the defilements I have abandoned', and the defilements >remaining, thinking, 'These are the ones that remain'. Some trainees >review, some do not; what is meant is that this practice depends on one's >wish. Indeed, this is why Mahanama the Sakyan asked about the defilements >that were not abandoned: 'What is the state, lord, that I have not >abandoned inside?' [M1 91; Vism 676 (ch X11,210] > > 41178 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Joop It is interesting to talk to you because of your open minded and inquisitive approach. Whatever we think whether Abhidhamma is compose by Buddha himself or later Arahants, it is also based on our concept of what we going to believe. The need or urge to defend ones believe only reinforce the concept of self. So in a sutta I recalled, Buddha preach a method is that "this is taught by Buddha or this is not dhamma" - something like that - I now only to start to understand why it is said so in this way. Faith is kusala, as it helps us to listen to dhamma, increase panna but there is always danger in very dhamma. So my method is still treat all kusala or aksuala as Anatta. Cheers! Ken O 41179 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:18pm Subject: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi, Larry Thanks for coming in with these comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon and Howard, > > I see you are discussing deliberate practice. What does this word > "deliberate" mean to you? Howard and I have somewhat different understandings as to the conditions necessary for the development of insight, and I used the term `deliberate practice' to characterise Howard's approach (although Howard himself tends to mention the mental factor of intention (cetana) in this context). So it does not have a precise meaning in a Dhamma context. To my understanding of `practice' as used in the texts, the term `deliberate practice' would be something of a contradiction in terms. > I would think one possibility is "strongly intentional with an > expectation of a particular result", or "intending a particular result". > It is true that there are particular results that arise from javana > cittas, intentional consciousnesses, and these results follow a fixed > order, kusala consciousnesses result in kusala results. So in this sense > intentions are always accomplished. In conventional terms I would agree that `deliberate' and `intentional' are synonyms, but when we get to cetana cetasika and the javana cittas then I see no connection between the two. Although cetana is translated as `intention', it is not `an intention'; that is a conventional expression referring I think to a kind of thinking. Cetana is kamma and its result is vipaka, but I would not refer to vipaka as being the `accomplishment of an intention'. > Another possibility for "deliberate" is "prompted" or "unprompted". I'm > not sure how this works out in terms of tranquility and insight. On a > sense sphere level I would think kusala cittas could be either prompted > or unprompted, but jhana cittas and lokuttara cittas are not classified > in this way. Does that mean they are not deliberate? Clearly, > tranquility and insight is cultivated by all Buddhists. I agree with the relevance of prompted and unprompted to this discussion. There are times when kusala arises only because it has been prompted, whether by another or by oneself. Now when kusala arises because of prompting by oneself, it can appear to be the case that the kusala was `deliberate'. But to my understanding this would be just another instance of the operation of conditions; such `deliberateness' is neither a necessary condition for, nor a means of making occur, the arising of kusala. (A partial exception has to be noted here in that, when kusala has been developed to the strength of being a power (`bala'), it can be aroused *more or less* at will, but always subject to conditions of course!) > Finally, "deliberate" could refer to a sense of self as doer. This is > clearly a wrong view. If you are prompted to give and you respond by > giving with a sense of self as giver I would think the appropriate > response would be to go ahead and give the gift but let go of the sense > of self as giver. Similarly, if you are open to the Buddha's prompting > to cultivate tranquility and insight but a sense of self as meditator > arises the "right" response is to abandon that sense of self but > continue with the practice. I agree that conventionally deliberate action is likely to be accompanied by a strong sense of self. However, I see the abandoning of that sense of self as being achievable only by developed insight, and not something that can be done deliberately (i.e., by dint of intention or resolution). Thanks for the comments. Jon 41180 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:41pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: … And to ignore the conventional actions urged by the Buddha throughout the Sutta Pitaka (and I see that almost *everywhere*) is, in fact, to put "Buddhists" in exactly the same boat as non- Buddhists as far as "progress" towards liberation is concerned. … > J: Surely there can be kusala of any kind arising without deliberate > practice. Your own experience in life confirms this, I'm sure. --------------------------------------- Howard: No more so for a "Buddhist" than for anyone else. Jon: Kusala of different kinds arises because of conditions, and since those conditions apply equally for everyone, it is correct to say that the "Buddhist" and the "non-Buddhist" are in the same boat. One of those conditions is of course one's previous accumulated kusala, and as to this it cannot be said that one group is better endowed than the other. But another important factor is the appreciation of the advantages of kusala and the dangers of akusala, and in this regard having heard and understood the teachings is a great asset (regardless of one's general level of accumulated kusala). When it comes to kusala of the level of insight in particular, the hearing of the teachings in the present lifetime is a prerequisite. The necessary conditions for insight development as explained in the texts are: hearing the teachings about insight knowledge presented in a way that is appropriate for our particular level of understanding and accumulated wrong views; reflecting on what has been heard; and the relating of what has been heard and properly understood to the present moment. I believe that if these conditins have been met then awareness can arise and insight can be developed, without the need for anything further in the way of conscious/deliberate `practice' on the part of the individual. So while there is a sense in which everyone is in the same boat, it is also true to say that only the person who has heard and understood the teachings has the potential to develop insight in this lifetime. And the question as to how that development occurs needs a lot of careful study, as it is not easily grasped (I am very much still learning). Jon 41181 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep > Further, what are the suttas that support the statement, "when > vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of > those who do not develop jhana."? I only know the suttas that say > samma-samadhi supports samma-nana (i.e. vipassana-nana). In the Abhidhamma, concentration cetasikas is an universal cetasikas, so one develop vipassana, one develop samadhi. Ken O 41182 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Hi Tep > > T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was > translated from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is intent on watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from taking on outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will be taken care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way will eventually become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. This is the same idea in the Potthila Thera's story. in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. In Abhidhamma practise, every moment is a practise, we cannot chose whether one sense that come in or another will not. Abhidhamma practise is a daily living practise where one look at senses that comes to the mind. In abhidhamma one can develop panna even while bathing, eating, walking lesiureing down the park etc. There is no deliberate action to choose to nor to choose. It is just knowing them as they arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna. It is a practise of living moment ;-) Ken O (today has been less busy hopefully it will be like that for the rest of the month - lobha ;-)) 41183 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:02am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 104 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (p) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Questions i How can we know that there is a next life? ii Which kinds of cetanå are a link in the Dependant Origination? iii Why is cetanå which accompanies magga-citta not kammaformation? iv Kusala kamma is capable of producing vipåka and thus it is a link in the Dependant Origination. Why does it still make sense to perform kusala kamma? ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 41184 From: Philip Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:09am Subject: Hi from Phil Hello all Very mysterious. Our computer hasn't turned on for several weeks - well, it turns on, but the screen remains black except for a very faint hint of light - but today it is working. I don't know how long this will last so I'll just send along a quick greeting while I can. I am pressing ahead in , gently, in Dhamma, rereading Abhidhamma- realted material I studied last year, and still engrossed in Samyutta Nikaya. Lately I've been reconnecting to my Japanese language study, so am trying to read Dhamma material in Japanese. This means Mahayana, and I am finding some interesting variations. (It seems "emptiness" often appears as a fourth characteristic) But I will have to make a trek to the only Theravada temple in Tokyo to pick up something, and will ask Rob K to send along the Japanese translation of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" that his students are working on. (He did before, but alas I lost it when the computer went down in December.) Well, that's all for now. We'll see how long the computer is usable. Metta, Phil p.s Do computer experts out there recognize the computer problem I'm referring to? It comes on, but the screen is dark. But lo and behold, today it is working fine. What is your diagnosis? Thanks for any feedback- off-list would be better I guess. 41185 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil Hi Phil & KenO, --- Philip wrote: > Very mysterious. Our computer hasn't turned on for several weeks - > well, it turns on, but the screen remains black except for a very > faint hint of light - but today it is working. I don't know how long > this will last so I'll just send along a quick greeting while I can. > ... Thx for letting us know - and really hope it keeps working a little longer for all our sakes - missing your friendly posts...Sounds like this prob has been beyond even Naomi's techno skills:-(. ...and KenO, hope you manage to find some further free time so that we hear more from you and your good cheer too:-). Metta, Sarah ======== 41186 From: Philip Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:38am Subject: Re: sutta and abhidhamma Hello Nina, Joop and all > I discussed with Lodewijk your remark that we speak about the Abhidhamma > without doubt and that you find this uninspiring. We can understand this. > Lodewijk said that this is the Western way of approach, one should not be so > dead sure about everything. I can't remember now which Nikaya it is in, but there is in my opinion a very impportant sutta that gets at this issue. It is about "protecting the truth" - that we can take something with faith while at the same time *not* saying that it is without doubt true. Does anyone know the sutta I'm referring to? We will never get anywhere if we are always held back by an excess of rational investigation. And the sutta I refer to above tells us that we can let go and experience the benefits of faith without sacrificing the right to step back and see the truth in a different way at some point. We can benefit a lot from having faith that cittas rise and fall away in a very momentary way long before we have begun to develop insight that will bring us proof through direct experience of this rising and falling, for example. I've been finding myself taking bad moments as vipaka. When I first came across the idea, my rational mind protested. I remember asking Nina how on earth it could be a result of kamma if a drunken man walks by my house and bellows in rage at night - how could that unpleasant sound be vipaka? I don't protest anymore. It is very liberating to take things as vipaka - and taking things in this way *doesn't* mean sacrificing autonomy. It's kind of a game, in a way - playacting for me still, at this point. But very liberating. I just don't get caught up in stories as much anymore thanks to it, and I find myself not reacting in ways that will create more bad kamma. This is all done on faith. But it really does feel very liberating. Ah, my first ramble in weeks. Feels great. Anyways, back to the point - I think we *can* be dead sure and have reservations at the same time. Another one of those paradoxes, like the one about crossing the flood by not standing still and not pressing forward. Metta, Phil 41187 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard Thanks or bringing up some specific uttas for discussion. Here is the relevant part of each of suttas No 2, 3 and 4 from your list and my comments on them (these are not exact quotes from the translation but are based closely on it): **************************************** No. 2 “Abandon evil! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness. Cultivate good! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness.â€? I see the message here as being, that the abandoning of akusala and the cultivation of kusala is indeed possible and is the way to happiness. However, I do not see this sutta as saying anything about the means whereby evil is abandoned and good cultivated. **************************************** No. 3 “Thus should one train oneself: ‘We shall not entertain any I-making [wrong view], mine-making [craving] or underlying tendency to conceit [conceit]; and we shall enter and dwell in the liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, so that we are no longer subject to I-making, mine-making and the underlying tendency to conceit.’ “When a monk [achieves this] he is called a monk who has cut off craving and removed the fetters, one who, by fully breaking through conceit, has made an end to suffering.â€? I would see this sutta as identifying wrong view, craving and conceit as bonds that tie us to continued existence, and as identifying the factor of wisdom as the way to break those bonds. I would not read it as advocating any particular conventional action or behaviour, for instance resolving/repeating ‘I shall not entertain any I-making’; I believe that would be an overly-literal reading of the sutta. **************************************** No. 4 “Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, service to one’s parents.â€? I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything in particular. **************************************** Howard, no doubt we have different views on these suttas ;-)) If you see them as prescribing conventional actions, practices or behaviour as part of the development of insight, I’d be interested to know what that would be in each case. Jon PS On sutta No. 1 I have nothing to add to Nina’s comments for the time being. upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Phil and all) - > >... > With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to >prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of >selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas that I think are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: > > (II, i, 5) > (II, ii, 9) > (III, 32) > (III, 45) > (IV, 12) > >With metta, >Howard > > 41188 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/22/05 3:09:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing > the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. > ------------------------------ Howard: That depends, I believe, on the person involved, and on his/her status. What of a non-returner's watching of the mind? To the extent there is lobha in doing that as a practice, is would be VERY subtle! And what if there is lobha? Even not so subtle? Does that make the practice worthless? If that is so, then, inasmuch as we all start immersed in the three poisons, there is no escape!! ---------------------------- In Abhidhamma> > practise, every moment is a practise, we cannot chose whether one > sense that come in or another will not. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Quite true! What can be influenced is reaction. ------------------------------------- Abhidhamma practise is a> > daily living practise where one look at senses that comes to the > mind. In abhidhamma one can develop panna even while bathing, > eating, walking lesiureing down the park etc. > -------------------------------- Howard: It "can"? And might it also not? And what makes the difference? ------------------------------- There is no deliberate> > action to choose to nor to choose. It is just knowing them as they > arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca > or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna. It is a > practise of living moment ;-) -------------------------------- Howard: Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not possible he would not say it is. You say "It is just knowing them as they arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna." What is it that determines in a person whether or not s/he "just knows them as they arise"? What is it that results in pa~n~na being operative. If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison engaged in practice while torturing people. Is there no difference in "practice" between those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? ------------------------------------------ > > Ken O > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41189 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:19am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Hi Ken and Howard - It is a great discussion topic that you both started - how to practice awareness with thorough comprehension (of the cittas) in the present moment without a slightest desire(lobha). K: Today has been less busy hopefully it will be like that for the rest of the month - lobha ;-). T: Yes, that is a desire. But can you be aware of the situation, knowing that it is not permanent (i.e. it comes to pass), and let go of it ? If you can, then there is no lobha. When there is no tanha, there is no attachment. Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > > T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was > > translated from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is > intent on watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from > taking on outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will > be taken care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way > will eventually become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. > This is the same idea in the Potthila Thera's story. > > in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing > the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. In Abhidhamma > practise, every moment is a practise, we cannot chose whether one > sense that come in or another will not. Abhidhamma practise is a > daily living practise where one look at senses that comes to the > mind. In abhidhamma one can develop panna even while bathing, > eating, walking lesiureing down the park etc. There is no deliberate > action to choose to nor to choose. It is just knowing them as they > arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca > or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna. It is a > practise of living moment ;-) > > Ken O > (today has been less busy hopefully it will be like that for the rest > of the month - lobha ;-)) > 41190 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: sutta and abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear Joop, > I have been reflecting on your remarks that you like the narrative style of > the suttas but find little inspiration in Abhidhamma, especially in the way > it is presented here. You have the impression that it is not based on > experience. Thus, reading your post today, you appreciate the Abhidhamma but > not the way some people, including me, present it. That is food for thought. > You also found the terms kusala and akusala not clear. Dear Nina (and Phil), Thanks for your helpful words. Do they help? I don't know, processes take time. Offline I send you the draft of a article on Western (or 'Gobal') Buddhism that possibly will be published in a Dutch Journal this spring. My problem is not that the Abhidhamma is dry (I liked to study dry stuff like mathematics). My problem is that the Dhamma is frozen, made a system in which nothing is skipped, that there is not a drip of anarchy in it. And that it's a body of knowledge that can not change (any more). Abhidhamma is like a medicine: when is take a optimum dosis then it's healthy but when taken too much then it's unhealthy. To me on this moment the optimum dosis is not very high. Hoe do I know that I'm right with that? Trust myself. As I said to Htoo some days ago. "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said. I have the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (edited by BB) at home and spend much time with it last summer. When I got the impression that in my insight-meditation experience phenomena that possibly can be explained by reading again, I will do. And maybe I go again to a Abhidhamma-retreat in Naarden this summer. And about the terms kusala and akusala or the terms good and bad; well I think I never invented them myself if other people had not said to me that these dichotomies exist. To me sila is simple: I try to live a ethical life (the precepts) and try to be mindful in daily life, again and again and again; and that's all, for the rest there is no need to talk about ethics. Phil is right when he states: "We can benefit a lot from having faith that cittas rise and fall away in a very momentary way long before we have begun to develop insight that will bring us proof through direct experience of this rising and falling." What I want to understand know who rising and falling relates to the principle of anicca (empiness as anicca) but for a reason I don't understand the word 'anicca' (and 'anatta') cannot be found in the Index of CMA. To me 'anicca' is the mechanism I have faith in that it is true, so I have the faculty to have faith. Metta Joop 41191 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Ken O. - Here sama-samadhi is not just samadhi, although the two terms have been interchangeable by some translators of the suttas. Sama- samadhi is right concentration and is defined by the four jhanas as follows: 'And what, monks, is the concentration faculty? Herein, monks, the ariyan disciple, having made relinquishment his basis, attains concentration, attains one-pointedness of mind. Secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with delight (piti) and pleasure (sukha) born of seclusion. With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, he enters and abides in the second jhana, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind, without applied and sustained thought, with delight and pleasure born of concentration. With the calming down of delight, he enters and abides in the third jhana, dwelling equanimous, collected and mindful, feeling pleasure with the body, on account of which ariyans say: 'He has a pleasant abiding who is equanimous and collected.' With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and the previous fading away of joy and grief, he enters and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither pain nor pleasure, with complete purity of equanimity and recollection (sati). This, monks, is called the concentration faculty.' [SN XLVIII,1.10] Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > Further, what are the suttas that support the statement, "when > > vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of > > those who do not develop jhana."? I only know the suttas that say > > samma-samadhi supports samma-nana (i.e. vipassana-nana). > > In the Abhidhamma, concentration cetasikas is an universal cetasikas, > so one develop vipassana, one develop samadhi. > > Ken O > 41192 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - As preamble, I think I'll just say that we certainly disagree on this one, and there seems little prospect of a rapprochement in sight! ;-)) I'll add just a couple brief comments below. In a message dated 1/22/05 9:43:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > Thanks or bringing up some specific uttas for discussion. Here is the > relevant part of each of suttas No 2, 3 and 4 from your list and my > comments on them (these are not exact quotes from the translation but > are based closely on it): > > **************************************** > No. 2 > “Abandon evil! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness. > Cultivate good! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness.â€? > > I see the message here as being, that the abandoning of akusala and the > cultivation of kusala is indeed possible and is the way to happiness. > > However, I do not see this sutta as saying anything about the means > whereby evil is abandoned and good cultivated. ------------------------------------------ Howard: That's correct. This sutta does not discuss method. But it *does*instruct the hearer to abandon evil, and states that it is possible to do so. ------------------------------------------- > > **************************************** > No. 3 > “Thus should one train oneself: ‘We shall not entertain any I-making > [wrong view], mine-making [craving] or underlying tendency to conceit > [conceit]; and we shall enter and dwell in the liberation of mind, > liberation by wisdom, so that we are no longer subject to I-making, > mine-making and the underlying tendency to conceit.’ > “When a monk [achieves this] he is called a monk who has cut off craving > and removed the fetters, one who, by fully breaking through conceit, has > made an end to suffering.â€? > > I would see this sutta as identifying wrong view, craving and conceit as > bonds that tie us to continued existence, and as identifying the factor > of wisdom as the way to break those bonds. I would not read it as > advocating any particular conventional action or behaviour, for instance > resolving/repeating ‘I shall not entertain any I-making’; I believe that > would be an overly-literal reading of the sutta. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: But you ignore the opening phrase: "Thus should one train oneself". I take that to mean exactly what it says. --------------------------------------------- > > **************************************** > No. 4 > “Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into > homelessness, service to one’s parents.â€? > > I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular > forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything > in particular. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: My point with regard to this sutta was the use of 'prescribed'. What is prescribed or recommended to be done is not just *described* as being useful. The following is the dictionary entry for 'prescribe': ___________________________ Main Entry: pre·scribe Pronunciation: pri-'skrIb Function: verb Inflected Form(s): pre·scribed; pre·scrib·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Latin praescribere to write at the beginning, dictate, order, from prae- + scribere to write â€"more at SCRIBE Date: 15th century intransitive senses 1 : to lay down a rule : DICTATE 2 : [Middle English, from Medieval Latin praescribere, from Latin, to write at the beginning] : to claim a title to something by right of prescription 3 : to write or give medical prescriptions 4 : to become by prescription invalid or unenforceable transitive senses 1 a : to lay down as a guide, direction, or rule of action : ORDAIN b : to specify with authority 2 : to designate or order the use of as a remedy - pre·scrib·er noun ----------------------------------------------- > **************************************** > > Howard, no doubt we have different views on these suttas ;-)) If you > see them as prescribing conventional actions, practices or behaviour as > part of the development of insight, I’d be interested to know what that > would be in each case. > > Jon ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41193 From: nina Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:16am Subject: Vis. XIV, 132 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 132 and Tiika. 132. They have the characteristic of forming. Their function is to accumulate. They are manifested as intervening. N: vipphaara, rendered by the translator as interest or intervening. The Tiika explains here the meaning as follows: the manifestation is being with an occupation (sabyaapaara: sa is with, vyaaparaa is occupation). As we have seen, the Tiika to Vis 81 clarifies: N: Volition accumulates and it also coordinates the task of the other nama dhammas, thus, it has two functions. When it accompanies vipaakacitta or kiriyacitta it merely coordinates the work of the other nama dhammas, it does not accumulate. Text Vis: Their proximate cause is the remaining three [immaterial] aggregates. N: The four naamakkhandhas arise and fall away together. They condition each other by way of conascent-condition and also by mutuality-condiiton. When viññaa.nakkhandha, citta, arises, also feeling, saññaa and sa²nkhaarakkhandha arise. None of these khandhas can arise without the others. Text Vis: So according to characteristic, etc., they are singlefold. N: As we have seen, they have the characteristic of forming. The plural is used, but cetanaa is the principal. Text Vis: And according to kind they are threefold, namely, (I) profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate. As regards these, when associated with profitable consciousness they are profitable, when associated with unprofitable consciousness they are unprofitable, when associated with indeterminate consciousness they are indeterminate. N: They can be kusala, akusala or avyaakata which includes vipaaka and kiriya. Thus, they can be of four jaatis. This reminds us that the khandhas are different all the time. It depends on the appropriate conditions of which jaati they are. All the time there are different combinations of the cetasikas accompanying citta. The conditions have to be just right for such or such combination and this combination is very temporary. There is a concurrence of conditions for each moment of citta and its accompanying cetasikas. This shows us that there is no self who can direct citta and cetasikas to be in this or that way. **** Nina. 41194 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,132, vyaapaara, 2. Hi Larry, op 22-01-2005 02:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could we translate "sankhara manifest as vyaapaara" as "coordinators > (motivators?) manifest as constructive activity" (aka 'work')? N: I repeat the Tiika to Vis. 132, I am doing just now: Volition accumulates and it also coordinates the task of the other nama dhammas, thus, it has two functions. When it accompanies vipaakacitta or kiriyacitta it merely coordinates the work of the other nama dhammas, it does not accumulate kamma. It is helpful to compare with other Co such as the Expositor and the T.A. (p. 56) which follows the Expositor: < Volition (cetanaa) is what wills; it directs itself and associated dhammas onto the object, or it achieves the task of forming what it formed. Since it is indeed foremost in forming, the Suttanta section of the analysis of the aggregate of formations of the Vibha"nga quotes the statement that 'formations (sa"nkhaara) are what construct (abhisa"nkharonti) the conditioned (sa"nkhata), and explains that there exists volition born of contact of the eye, etc. Volition has the characteristic of willing. It should be seen like a senior apprentice or a master carpenter. etc., who accomplishes others' work as well as his own.> You said above: . But I think that we should distinguish the two functions of cetana which is foremost. L: By 'constructive' I mean both 'goal oriented' with an implicit link to > lobha because of the association between 'intend' and 'desire', and > additive in the sense of combining elements into a group. N: Intention is a translation of volition. It wills kusala and akusala. I do not think merely of lobha, it can go together with all kinds of good or bad qualities. They all assist cetana in forming, in accumulating kamma. L: I think the difference between a heap and a whole is that in a heap the various elements are not connected but in a whole the various elements are _conceptually_ connected. In this sense sankhara cetasikas construct a 'person', either rightly or wrongly understood. N: I think all five khandhas make up what we call a person. You and I are: five khandhas or: citta, cetasika and rupa. As to heap: I do not think there is much meaning behind this word, except that it denotes khandha. Heap (rasi) or category pertains to each of the five khandhas (Dispeller, p. 1). This Co says also of rupa (p. 6) < And this-shows all materiality as the materiality aggregate by its being heaped together under the characteristic of being molested. For there is no materiality aggregate other than materiality.> Thus, all rupas are grouped into one mass or category. The same for each of the other khandhas. If you like you can call it a whole, but, it changes all the time. Certainly, there is a connection or combination of all these cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha. Cetanaa is the chief, but when it motivates a deed, sobhana cetasikas or akusala cetasikas, and also the universals and particulars, they all cooperate in performing a deed that can bring result later on. Cetana coordinates them all. L: 'Constructive activity' also has to have a future fruitional sense of > consequences of that activity in order to account for kamma via > intention. It seems to be the unique characteristic of intention that it > has future consequences. N: Yes, it is accumulated and can produce result. Some people wonder how a deed can bring a result later on, but it is mental, that is why it can be accumulated. L: It looks like 'accumulation' is used in two senses in the analysis of > sankhara: 1. accumulation in the sense of storing-up kamma and habits, N: Here we have already two senses: accumulation of kamma that can produce result, and, as you call it habits. These are good and bad inclinations that can condition citta arising now by way of natural strong dependence condition. I would avoid the word storing up, some people think of a store consciousness, a kind of abiding subconsciousness. L: and 2. in the sense of forming a (seemingly?) integrated group of > elements. N: Here you probably think of the different cetasikas that arise together and condition one another. There is a combination of the cetasikas in sankhaarakkhandha. We should not forget that such a combination is very momentary. There is constant change. All the time there are different combinations. The conditions have to be just right for such or such combination. Take the following paras of Vis. It begins with all the cetasikas that accompany the first type of kusala citta: with pañña, pleasant feeling, unprompted. As we learnt, many conditions are needed for the arising of this citta. The Vis. follows here the Dhammasangani: At a time when kusala citta of the sense sphere has arisen... And then the accompanying cetasikas are summed up. At the occasion (when kusala citta arises): yasmi.m samaya. Remember what we studied under Kusala citta, I quoted the Expositor and this may clarify the notion of the combination of cetasikas: This is one moment of citta, arising and falling away. I give an example that we often heard from Kh Sujin: she said: sati is accumulated as sankhaarakkhandha while we listen to the dhamma and begin to be aware. Together with sati there is intellectual understanding of the level of listening, confidence in the Dhamma, concentration, energy, many cetasikas that assist, volition that coordinates. This combination arises and falls away, but it is accumulated, so that there are conditions for their arising again, they develop. In this way sati can develop into direct awareness, sati without having to think of the object, and understanding can develop into insight. They develop into something that is new. And even more so when lokuttara citta arises, with sati and paññaa that are lokuttara. We are thinking of terms and their meaning, but Kh. Sujin always stresses to keep the link with life. I have to remind myself of this when studying the terms. L: It is a little difficult to understand whether 'accumulation' > in either sense refers to a reality. My guess is that it refers to a > plurality of realities or dhammas (realities and concepts). N: I think that it pertains by all means to realities. Concepts themselves are not accumulated in the citta, but memory of concepts is accumulated, the cetasika sañña is accumulated. That is why we remember what we learn. Nina. 41195 From: Larry Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi Jon, J: "Howard and I have somewhat different understandings as to the conditions necessary for the development of insight, and I used the term `deliberate practice' to characterize Howard's approach (although Howard himself tends to mention the mental factor of intention (cetana) in this context). So it does not have a precise meaning in a Dhamma context. To my understanding of `practice' as used in the texts, the term `deliberate practice' would be something of a contradiction in terms." L: A quick look at "The Buddhist Dictionary" yields the definition of 'bhavana' as literally 'producing'. Would you like to add anything to that? How does 'intention' contradict 'produce'? J: "In conventional terms I would agree that `deliberate' and `intentional' are synonyms, but when we get to cetana cetasika and the javana cittas then I see no connection between the two. Although cetana is translated as `intention', it is not `an intention'; that is a conventional expression referring I think to a kind of thinking. Cetana is kamma and its result is vipaka, but I would not refer to vipaka as being the `accomplishment of an intention'." L: I think it is 'an intention' sometimes. When that is the case we have two results, the kammic consequences of an intention and the results of an action. These results of an action of body, speech, or mind are often not what one originally intended (desired). But sometimes they are. We often attribute these successful actions to skill. I tried to find the Pali for 'skill' but all I could find is 'kusala' as a definition. I'm not sure where that leaves the argument, but if one's intention is to 'do good' then the vipaka will be kusala regardless of how the action turns out, won't it? J: "I agree with the relevance of prompted and unprompted to this discussion. There are times when kusala arises only because it has been prompted, whether by another or by oneself. Now when kusala arises because of prompting by oneself, it can appear to be the case that the kusala was `deliberate'. But to my understanding this would be just another instance of the operation of conditions; such `deliberateness' is neither a necessary condition for, nor a means of making occur, the arising of kusala." L: I would say 'self' prompted kusala is, by definition, kusala. J: "(A partial exception has to be noted here in that, when kusala has been developed to the strength of being a power (`bala'), it can be aroused *more or less* at will, but always subject to conditions of course!)" L: I would say power is a level of skill, whatever that is. J: "I agree that conventionally deliberate action is likely to be accompanied by a strong sense of self. However, I see the abandoning of that sense of self as being achievable only by developed insight, and not something that can be done deliberately (i.e., by dint of intention or resolution)." L: I would say to resolve to abandon belief in a self will have a salutary (kusala) result because it is a salutary resolution. However, I agree that more often than not the result of whatever action one takes as a means to accomplish that abandonment will be unsuccessful. Hence the necessity for repeated application and also the cultivation of concentration skills and contemplation of the dhamma. J: "Thanks for the comments. Jon" L: Likewise, Larry 41196 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:05pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Everyone - The following is an exerpt from a recent dialogue between Ken and Howard: Ken O. : > in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing > the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. > ------------------------------ Howard: That depends, I believe, on the person involved, and on his/her status. What of a non-returner's watching of the mind? To the extent there is lobha in doing that as a practice, is would be VERY subtle! And what if there is lobha? Even not so subtle? Does that make the practice worthless? If that is so, then, inasmuch as we all start immersed in the three poisons, there is no escape!! ---------------------------- Tep: How true it is, Howard. How true it is! Your comment gives hope to all practitioners at any level to continue to strive hard, to work one's way up from the worlding level to the lokiya level, then to the lokuttara level. Your wise remark, Howard, is not unlike the following Buddhist poem. "Erroneous views keep us in defilement While right views remove us from it, But when we are in a position to discard both of them We are then absolutely pure. Bodhi is immanent in our Essence of Mind, An attempt to look for it elsewhere is erroneous. Within our impure mind the pure one is to be found." Can anyone tell who said the above quoted words? Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > 41197 From: Larry Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,132, vyaapaara, 2. Hi Nina, Thanks for your comments. One counter comment: N: "I would avoid the word storing up, some people think of a store consciousness, a kind of abiding subconsciousness." L: The "store house consciousness" of some Mahayana systems is essentially memory. Everyone is a little vague on what memory is. Larry 41198 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi, all - In his remarkable dialogue with Ken O. (message # 41188), Howard said it well and he deserves a loud applause from all of us, including Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from "deliberate cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. "Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not possible he would not say it is. "You (Ken O.) say "It is just knowing them as they arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna." "What is it that determines in a person whether or not s/he "just knows them as they arise"? What is it that results in pa~n~na being operative. If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison engaged in practice while torturing people. Is there no difference in "practice" between those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? [endquote of Howard's message] Thank you for saying it all very well, Howard. Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Everyone - > > The following is an exerpt from a recent dialogue between Ken and > Howard: > > Ken O. : > > in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing > > the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. > > > ------------------------------ > Howard: > > That depends, I believe, on the person involved, and on his/her > status. What of a non-returner's watching of the mind? To the extent > there is lobha in doing that as a practice, is would be VERY subtle! And > what if there is lobha? Even not so subtle? Does that make the practice > worthless? If that is so, then, inasmuch as we all start immersed in the > three poisons, there is no escape!! > ---------------------------- > Tep: How true it is, Howard. How true it is! Your comment gives hope to > all practitioners at any level to continue to strive hard, to work one's > way up from the worlding level to the lokiya level, then to the lokuttara > level. Your wise remark, Howard, is not unlike the following Buddhist > poem. > > "Erroneous views keep us in defilement > While right views remove us from it, > But when we are in a position to discard both of them > We are then absolutely pure. > Bodhi is immanent in our Essence of Mind, > An attempt to look for it elsewhere is erroneous. > Within our impure mind the pure one is to be found." > > Can anyone tell who said the above quoted words? > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > 41199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Jon and Howard, I find especially important what Jon writes: the relating of what has been heard and properly understood to the present moment. And this is also Abhidhamma applied. Always the link to the present moment, and then there is already a beginning awareness, however imperfect. As to further practice: all the perfections are to be developed, that is, all kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind, without the need to name the perfections. That is the further practice and quite a task. But each individual will fit things into his daily life differently, different circumstances. Lodewijk said that some people are naturally inclined to some quiet time in the morning, or they want time to think quietly. Like I try to listen early morning to MP3. I need this as a reminder, otherwise I forget to relate Dhamma to the present moment. But also in daily life itself, reading the news, we receive reminders. My father says, he is losing his identity, and this is a reminder: we all do, each split second. And he is old gae personified. And you listen while walking. Everybody has his own conditions. Nina. op 22-01-2005 07:41 schreef jonoabb op jonoabb@y...: > The necessary conditions for insight development as explained in the > texts are: hearing the teachings about insight knowledge presented > in a way that is appropriate for our particular level of > understanding and accumulated wrong views; reflecting on what has > been heard; and the relating of what has been heard and properly > understood to the present moment. I believe that if these conditins > have been met then awareness can arise and insight can be developed, > without the need for anything further in the way of > conscious/deliberate `practice' on the part of the individual.