43000 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Ken, To hear this makes me a little sad, because I care: You wrote: {It is too late to do anything about it - it has already gone. Conditioned realities last less than a billionth of a second and so the idea of doing something about them can only be rooted in ignorance (if I may put it that way). To put it another way: I am glad to know that my lot (dukkha) has a cause and a cessation and that there is a path leading to its cessation, but any desire to do something about it would be a part of the cause, not a part of the path.} Three points: 1) Conditioned realities are cyclic, they are bound to arise again and again, sometimes in different forms (and they can last from less than a billionth of a second to eons). 2) Do you remember how the Buddha became enlightened, and what he said to himself? That was full of desire, a desire so strong that it conquered Mara. What do you think drives Right Effort? What do you think is Right Intention (both effort and intention imply desire, or there would be no need of effort -- which implies a goal -- and no need of intent -- which implies purpose? 3) Yes Desire is the cause, so it must be part of the solution. What your answer should have been: to develop the wisdom, practice the morality, and have the concentration to stop the arising of ... ****** Before I wrote: {To think one thing (e.g., wholesomeness), but in reality, think another (e.g., unwholesomeness) means what? People deceive themselves, or are unaware of the menial activities that give rise to thoughts and thereby are made unaware of most thoughts. What do you think?} You replied with: {I think of it in terms of "near enemies." Ignorant worldlings commonly mistake certain unwholesome states for certain wholesome ones. So the former are called the "near enemies" of the latter.} What are the causes of this mistaken states? ***** I do-not mean that an academic understanding of the Buddha's teaching is not enough and there needs to be an actual practice of the teaching. Though that is an excellent point. When taking an academic or scientific approach to something you are force to try to look at all sides (both pros and cons), and offer improvements. ***** You said: "Reality is not relative" I must ask, is gravity real, is the sun real, is the arising of events real, is ignorance real, is suffering real, is birth real, is mind real, are the sense gates real, was the Buddha real, is the Abidharmma real, ... (I could go on forever)? and, are all these things conditioned (caused) by something ? Now, if you think what ever you perceive threw the 6 senses are unreal, then why are you ....? Don't make the mistake of falling back into the concept of Ultimate Reality/Truth. That destroys your Abidharmic view. In that view, there is no arising, only the unconditioned. For this reason Buddhism has Two, there is also the conditioned, therefore relative. Charles PS: I rarely find discussions difficult, it only happens when people are scared to express their point of view, or they are so closed that they do not want to hear another point of view. ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau Hi Charles, You wrote: --------------- > Before I proceed, at some point I meant to tell you that you seem to have a fairly good understand of the processes (leading to "emptiness") of the mind at work. Assuming this is what you mean by the Abhidhammic view, this is really good, quite redressing, but soon you will have to move up to the level of a Masters (being more ackedemic/scientific) -- What are the flaws, weaknesses, and mistakes of this view? and how can it be improve upon ) --- later, you don't have to now. ---------------- I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that an academic understanding of the Buddha's teaching is not enough and there needs to be an actual practice of the teaching? I would agree with that, but you seem to be saying something different. I'm sure your meaning will be made clear to me eventually. No hurry. :-) ------------------------ C: > Now for the current post: You Wrote: {"Yes, that's true, although it could also be false, depending on how you look at it. That's the problem with conventional reality: everything is relative, nothing entirely true and nothing entirely false. Fear, shame, clarity and calm can each be seen at different times, and by different people, sometimes as good qualities and sometimes as bad."} Perfect!!! This shows a good grasp of the relative-ness of reality. We can call this a conventional view, a view (awareness) from the 6 senses and samsara. > --------------- I'm glad we seem to agree, but I am wary of your term, "the relativeness of reality." Reality is not relative - only our conventional understanding (so called) can make it seem that way. Although I know next to nothing about Tibetan Buddhism, I think some traditions believe that Nibbana is real and that conditioned reality is unreal. If that is your point of view then you are going to find discussions on DSG very difficult. But not impossible! :-) ---------------- C: > You Wrote: {The Abhidhamma, however, explains that volitional consciousness can only be kusala or akusala - personal opinion has no effect on it. We might think we have wholesome mental factors (e.g, hiri (moral shame), otappa (moral dread), citta-pasaddhi (tranquility of consciousness)) but, in reality, have unwholesome mental factors (e.g., dosa (aversion), kukkucca (worry) and akusala- somanassa (pleasant feeling accompanied by attachment)).} - - - - To think one thing (e.g., wholesomeness), but in reality, think another (e.g., unwholesomeness) means what? People deceive themselves, or are unaware of the menial activities that give rise to thoughts and thereby are made unaware of most thoughts. What do you think? ------------- I think of it in terms of "near enemies." Ignorant worldlings commonly mistake certain unwholesome states for certain wholesome ones. So the former are called the "near enemies" of the latter. ------------- C: > You Wrote: {In the case in point, I'm sure you are right: the calmer, clearer mind I claimed to have more often these days is almost always akusala, rooted in attachment. And, as you say, that kind of calm precedes a storm. But such is the worldlings' lot. :-)} So, what are you going to do about it? or Are you just going to accept it as your lot? ------------- It is too late to do anything about it - it has already gone. Conditioned realities last less than a billionth of a second and so the idea of doing something about them can only be rooted in ignorance (if I may put it that way). To put it another way: I am glad to know that my lot (dukkha) has a cause and a cessation and that there is a path leading to its cessation, but any desire to do something about it would be a part of the cause, not a part of the path. Ken H 43001 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: The Aunt Dear Nina, N: Suppose the aunt would be reborn in the niece's womb, what is so bad about that? It is human birth and this is a happy rebirth. One has the chance to learn Dhamma. C: Only that the niece was already supposed to be one month pregnant at the time the aunt's citta was out house-hunting or whatever it was doing. Maybe it was just concerned about the niece and checking up on her. Maybe the aunt misunderstood and if the citta really was preparing to move on, it would've just moved along looking for a new host or waited to come back to the niece until there was room at the inn. Or maybe that kind of double occupancy accounts for conjoined twins. I sure don't know. I agree that human birth can be great as long as one can learn Dhamma; otherwise, it can be worse than just a waste of time, pleasant or otherwise. peace, connie 43002 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: The Citta Hi, James, I'm glad your computer's fixed. I didn't like thinking of you sitting in all that smoke and, I imagined, pointless chatter. :) Nanavira the Sotapanna!! Are you purposely finding the most controversial support you can? No denying he held a rather dim view of a certain "mass of dead matter choking the Suttas", ignorance of which "may be counted a positive advantage as leaving less to be unlearned". My thanks to Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Critical Examination of ~Naa.naviira Thera's 'A Note on Pa.ticcasamuppaada'" for the convenient quotes. Just so you know I've read both sides. Again, we're back to 'who ya gonna believe?'; which descriptions of reality or interpretations and commentaries on them are we going to compare our own understandings with? Ignorance automatically makes our thinking suspect. Some more so than other's, but that's my conceit. I think you've been fairly kind about saying you don't have the patience to explain the bio's "citta" to me, but when there isn't some kind of agreement about what words point to/describe, there isn't much point in arguing about them, either. I'm happy to go on thinking the bio points to another baby atta growing up and going home to re-unite as one with the eternal mommy and daddy atta version of how things are. Maybe I'll even come to accept it and start praying for my own speedy deliverance. Oh, wait, that's fairly close to how I used to think and act. Anyway, I'm glad you answered. I'm wondering how much of the commmentarial tradition you dismiss. Not all of it, I'm sure, remembering your answer about whether what I think of as a chair has anything to do with nimitta. According to Ven. Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, the use of nimitta (mark, sign; image; target, object; cause, condition) as: 1. the "'Mental (reflex-) image', obtained in meditation"; and 2. the signs of (previous) kamma and (the future) destiny; are Commentarial. Sutta usage is: 3. 'outward appearance'; 4. "'Object': the six objects, ie, visual, etc."; and 5. ...'condition of existence'. The whole entry's at: www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nimitta.htm BTW, just so I'm not ignoring your quote, akaalika to me is primarily concerned with the timeless and unchanging nature of the truths/path each Sammasambuddha rediscovers and serves as a warning against altering them to suit myself. Better I stumble around not knowing and questioning myself than to underestimate my ignorance any more than I have to. peace, connie 43003 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 0:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ultimate (Abhidhamma) view / Ken Boy, You have got me reading long threads, and writing them. I usually skip all the posts I can't see on a single screen. I have been studying and practicing Buddhism since the early 70's. This makes me an old Buddhist. I studied to the extent that I planned to become a monk and also a Lama (under totally different traditions). When I took refuge, it was under monks and nuns of three different traditions (Theravadan, Zen, and Tantric). Now, I have always understood your points. My mistake was in trying to get you, and a lot of others, to stop mixing the Ultimate and the Relative. Even to Theravadas there is the difference I speak of. That is who helped me to understand the difference. But I see now it is too ingrained into the way you think, so it is me that needs to change. One of the problems is that Dharma teaches about both, the relative and the absolute. This duality is one of the milestones of the middle path. The absolute borders on anilism while the relative borders on externalism. You should look into the teachings of the Buddha's contemporaries, it will clarify a lot of the Buddha's teachings. Think about this, In the instant something arises is it an illusion? and are its causes illusion also? If so then you are wrong about the existence of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and Nibbana -- they are then illusions also. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau Hi Charles, ------- C: > I have to ask, do you understand the meaning/symbolism of the term Ultimate Truth as it is in Buddhism? It is the state of reality that is devoid of all temporal and transitional things. This would even include the 5 aggregates, etc... Some say it transcends thought. > -------- Unfortunately, "Buddhism" means different things to different people. Leaving aside the word 'truth' I understand 'ultimate reality' to refer to the conditioned mental and physical realities (nama and rupa) and to the one unconditioned reality, Nibbana. ------------- C: > So you should be very careful when using it, the term Ultimate or Absolute, especially to old Buddhists. -------------- Please explain "old Buddhists." ------------------------ C: > You Wrote: ... about the need to discuss Abhidhamma in a normal manner rather than in terms of "one hand clapping" or by "silence" or any other "mysterious" means. - - - - - - - - - I understand this, however when you start to discuss the non- existence of self or ego, etc. this borders on Absolute truth and not the Abhidhamic view. The Abhidhamic view relates more to presenting what the thing we call "Self" really is, a linking of both, independent and dependent processes that gives the illusion of "one process," and need. > ------------------------- That is not the way I understand it. The Abhidhamma is the teaching of absolute reality. So is the rest of the Dhamma, but the Abhidhamma avoids references to people and places. It is the Dhamma expressed in terms of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and Nibbana. -------------------- C: > When I wrote: ... read the Tao of Physics. You replied: I did try to read it when I was that way inclined. I am sure it is a sidetrack leading away from the Buddha's teaching. - - - - - - - - - This tells me that you are more of a student of Buddhism (well, abhidarma really) than a seeker of truth. This is ok except when you become blind, deaf, dumb to Truth. --------------------- If time would stand still for a few decades, then I might look at modern, creative interpretations of the Dhamma. As it is, however, there is more in the original, ancient texts than I am ever likely to get around to. And those texts must come first, surely. ------------------ <. . .> C: > Read "Gentle Bridges" by the Dahli Lama. This a group of books (the might use other names too) that Cognitive psychologists sit down with Buddhist (i.e., Tibetan Buddhist) to compare notes. There are a lot of Cognitive psychologists that are also Buddhist. This is just one example. -------------------- Thanks, but I only have time for the Theravada teaching. -------------------- <. . .> C: > When you talk about realization beyond the illusion of permanence, satisfactoriness and self, you are confusing self with Atman or the eternal soul/essence. This has been one of the points I have been trying to get a lot of you all to see. -------------------- Whether it is an eternal soul or just something that persists from one fleeting moment of consciousness to another, it is the same thing - illusion. Ken H 43004 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 1:27pm Subject: Re: The Citta Hi Connie, Connie: I'm glad your computer's fixed. I didn't like thinking of you sitting in all that smoke and, I imagined, pointless chatter. James: Thanks! I know what you mean. Actually, I feel very lucky to not know Arabic. When people ask me if I want to learn Arabic I tell them that I would rather not. They look at me somewhat confused and I tell them 'Not knowing what people are talking about cuts down on noise pollution.' ;-) Connie: :) Nanavira the Sotapanna!! James: Hmmm? This must be an epitaph I am unfamiliar with. Would you care to explain? Connie: Are you purposely finding the most controversial support you can? James: Hehehe, No. Okay, this is going to sound bizarre to you but I came across this quote using my psychic ability. Actually, to let you in on a little secret, I often do that in these Internet discussions. I put my mind to an item that needs to be discussed or explained; wonder where I might find support for what I want to say; and then I suddenly feel the inspiration to look at a certain page in a certain web site (or book), even when I have never read that page/book before. Amazingly, that is how I find most of my stuff. People reading my posts might think I pour over Buddhist writings for days and days but that isn't the case at all- I usually find what I want rather quickly. Regarding this book by this particular bhikkhu, I think you know more about him than I do! LOL! I only read a few parts of this particular book until I found what I felt must be there. I have never read his work before (I swear!). I don't even know if he has other works. I am also not sure what Bhikkhh Bodhi has had to say about him in regards to Dependent Origination; not that I think B.B. has the ultimate understanding in regards to that subject either---but could you provide the link? Don't make me get psychic on you! ;-)) Connie: I think you've been fairly kind about saying you don't have the patience to explain the bio's "citta" to me, but when there isn't some kind of agreement about what words point to/describe, there isn't much point in arguing about them, either. James: Actually, there is hardly ever much point to arguing; but regarding my `patience to explain the bio's citta' you are correct to an extent- I don't feel that I can adequately explain it for you. When I put my mind to yours, I see that you want a definitive, black-and-white explanation for the citta which matches what you find in your Abhidhamma studies. Sorry, but that isn't possible. I believe that the citta defies explanation in that way. You may find this to be a cop out and that is okay. I could use some language to explain what I am thinking of but I know that you wouldn't understand or appreciate it- so I won't bother. That is where you are at the moment and where I am. We are at different places (not higher/lower, just different). Connie: I'm happy to go on thinking the bio points to another baby atta growing up and going home to re-unite as one with the eternal mommy and daddy atta version of how things are. Maybe I'll even come to accept it and start praying for my own speedy deliverance. Oh, wait, that's fairly close to how I used to think and act. James: So Cutesy Connie- really, doesn't suit you. You are so open-minded and intelligent; condescension is the weapon of knaves and fools. Connie: I'm wondering how much of the commmentarial tradition you dismiss. Not all of it, I'm sure,… James: I don't know how much of it I dismiss either…I haven't read all of it! ;-)) Connie: BTW, just so I'm not ignoring your quote, akaalika to me is primarily concerned with the timeless and unchanging nature of the truths/path each Sammasambuddha rediscovers and serves as a warning against altering them to suit myself. James: Okay, thanks for sharing but I am not sure what this has to do with the quote I provided. Connie: Better I stumble around not knowing and questioning myself than to underestimate my ignorance any more than I have to. James: I agree!! Here's to being fellow stumbleers!!!!!!!!! ;-) Metta, James 43005 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 2:27pm Subject: Re: The Citta Hi James, > James: > you in on a little secret, I often do that in these Internet > discussions. I put my mind to an item that needs to be discussed I have my own psychic abilities too: Google toolsbar :P - kel 43006 From: ianand520 Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 2:30pm Subject: Hello One and All I came upon your humble group while surfing for information on the Abhidhamma. Briefly, I have been a student of comparative religions most of my adult life, beginning in my early university days. When I first came upon some reading material about Buddhism, I was most impressed. I have also studied Hinduism and Taoism. Early on it became apparent to me that the Eastern philosophies seemed to offer more in the way of individual development methodology, and thus I have been a lifelong student and practitioner of these disciplines. My formal practice in meditation began some 24 1/2 years ago when I became associated with a contemplative monastic order which I later joined, becoming a monk. I spent nine years in association with this order and learned much about myself as well as many of the pitfalls of the spiritual path. Upon leaving, I began a personal study of the various meditation methods and techniques, having been weened on Kriya Yoga as taught by Paramahansa Yogananda (though not through SRF). At various times, I've studied and practiced Tibetan Dzogchen meditation, Mahayana Zen and Chan zazen, Taoist mystical yoga, Transcendental Meditation, Ramana Maharshi's Vichara, and a few of the oddball new age meditations like the Merkaba as illustrated by Drunvalo Melchizedek. Of all the techniques that I have studied and practiced, the one I personally like best and recommend to others is the Buddha's own Vipassana/Samatha method as espoused by the Theravada tradition. It is the easiest to learn, the least infected by personal manerisms, both simple in its implimentation and yet comprehensive in its breadth. When combined with following the Noble Eightfold Path, there is no rival to equal the efficiency of its ability to transform the individual. A few years ago, when I was on a personal 1 1/2 year self-imposed retreat intensive, in addition to books on the Buddha's discourses (the Majjhima Nikaya, the Digha Nikaya, the Anguttara Nikaya as well as A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) I came upon Nina van Gorkum's book on the web, _Abhidhamma in Daily Life_, as I was searching for material on the study of the Abhidhamma. I went through each chapter meticulously, as it seemed to offer an excellent and more accessible overview of the study. Here I found many golden nuggets of wisdom and practice. As a result of these experiences, I have become a researcher in the realm of consciousness, not just a "reader" or theoretical scholar of sorts, but a practitioner. My personal practice has expanded ten fold, one hundred fold over what it had been. In the same spirit as Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa's _Visuddhimagga_, which through the years has helped to accelerate and assist many on their path to liberation, I am convinced that there exists a method (or way of describing it) of equal importance in the present era which will help to speed up that acceleration even more for those willing to undergo its process. For Sarah's benefit (as well as others on this forum who would like to know) I live in the desert southwestern United States in Arizona. As explained above, I have been and remain a monastic, not a householder in Buddhist practitioner terminology. I look forward to a stimulating exchange of ideas and epiphanies on the Dhamma with the practitioners on the forum. In Metta and with blessings to all those Noble Ones here, I remain yours in service, Ian Andrews 43007 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: The Citta Hi again, James, Connie: :) Nanavira the Sotapanna!! James: Hmmm? This must be an epitaph I am unfamiliar with. Would you care to explain? Connie: Are you purposely finding the most controversial support you can? James: Hehehe, No. Okay, this is going to sound bizarre to you but I came across this quote using my psychic ability. Connie: No, my mother's a bit 'bizarre' and dad's mom always knew things she wasn't supposed to as far as I was concerned. Your ability's got a great sense of humour, though. I was sure you'd picked Nanavira because he was supposed to be sotapanna. If I remember correctly, the letter he spoke of it in wasn't supposed to be read until after he'd died... which I think was by suicide because he had some medical problems that interfered with his meditation and any further progress. === James: [snip] I am also not sure what Bhikkhh Bodhi has had to say about him in regards to Dependent Origination; not that I think B.B. has the ultimate understanding in regards to that subject either---but could you provide the link? Don't make me get psychic on you! ;-)) Connie: Please not that! I don't want you to know who you remind me of that makes me think I like you. The link I've got for the BBodhi paper died some time ago, but I can send you the file if you like. I think the only thing I changed was the format... Normyn(?) font to Velthuis and Word to txt. === James: Actually, there is hardly ever much point to arguing; but regarding my `patience to explain the bio's citta' you are correct to an extent- I don't feel that I can adequately explain it for you. When I put my mind to yours, I see that you want a definitive, black-and-white explanation for the citta which matches what you find in your Abhidhamma studies. Sorry, but that isn't possible. I believe that the citta defies explanation in that way. You may find this to be a cop out and that is okay. I could use some language to explain what I am thinking of but I know that you wouldn't understand or appreciate it- so I won't bother. That is where you are at the moment and where I am. We are at different places (not higher/lower, just different). Connie: What? You've already psyched me? Is nothing sacred? No, not a cop out, though Sarah might think we both are. And you're right, I should've said 'discuss' rather than 'argue'. ==== Connie: I'm happy to go on thinking the bio points to another baby atta growing up and going home to re-unite as one with the eternal mommy and daddy atta version of how things are. Maybe I'll even come to accept it and start praying for my own speedy deliverance. Oh, wait, that's fairly close to how I used to think and act. James: So Cutesy Connie- really, doesn't suit you. You are so open-minded and intelligent; condescension is the weapon of knaves and fools. Connie: Sorry, I could've phrased it better, but that's how it sounds to me and I really am stubbornly stuck on thinking that that's wrong. It's part of what bothers me about what my Maha- and Vajra-yana friends insist on. Kinda like the ex-smoker syndrome. And of course you already know some people would say it's condescending to tell them you already know they wouldn't understand or appreciate what you have to say. I happen to believe you're right in this case, but that's me. === Connie: BTW, just so I'm not ignoring your quote, akaalika to me is primarily concerned with the timeless and unchanging nature of the truths/path each Sammasambuddha rediscovers and serves as a warning against altering them to suit myself. James: Okay, thanks for sharing but I am not sure what this has to do with the quote I provided. Connie: Well, you know, a bit of snideness about changing the meanings of "my" black and white words, but mainly, you didn't say and I, being rather dense at times, didn't see what your quoting Nanavira about the cittaviithi in the context of DO had to do with answering the "what is 'citta'" question. For the biggest part of "Clearing the Path", Nanavira talks about DO and he felt the traditional 3-life representation of that was wrong. As a given in the A.Mun bio, citta is permanent, so why just repeat that? Going on, Nanavira wrote, "the Dhamma is sanditthika and akaalika, that it is immediately visible and without involving time (see in particular Majjhima iv,8 ). Now it is evident that the twelve items, avijjaa to jaraamarana, cannot, if the traditional interpretation is correct, all be seen at once; for they are spread over three successive existences." Is that your point, that the citta is outside of time? I have to smile at his phrasing when he continues. "It is needless to press this point further: either the reader will already have recognized that this is, for him, a valid objection to the traditional interpretation, or he will not. And if he has not already seen this as an objection, no amount of argument will open his eyes. It is a matter of one's fundamental attitude to one's own existence -- is there, or is there not, a present problem or, rather, anxiety that can only be resolved in the present?" This existential, present life dukkha and the question of what 'birth of a being' is are a couple of the points BBodhi discusses in defense of the traditional view. He does not, btw, reject everything Nanavira had to say. And no, I don't just automatically believe him, either. peace, connie 43008 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 10:08pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 138 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(h) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)contd] *** There are many degrees of nekkhamma and not only monks should cultivate it, but laypeople as well. Actually, all kusala dhammas are nekkhamma (1). When we perform dåna, observe síla or apply ourselves to mental development, we are at such moments not absorbed in sense-pleasures, there is reununciation. We can experience that when there is loving kindness or compassion we do not think of ourselves; thus, there is a degree of detachment. If we see the disadvantages of being selfish, of thinking of our own pleasure and comfort, there are more conditions for being attentive to others. Detachment from the concept of self is still a higher degree of renunciation which can be achieved through the development of right understanding of realities. Both monks and laypeople should cultivate this kind of renunciation. When the concept of self has been eradicated, stinginess has been eradicated as well, and thus, there are more conditions for generosity. Moreover, síla will be purer, there will be no more conditions for transgressing the five precepts. *** 1) Vibhaòga, Book of Analysis, 3, Analysis of the Elements, §182. ***** [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 43009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 5, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello One and All Dear Ian, Thank you for sharing your experiences and your background. I appreciate it that you are interested in the Abhidhamma and I welcome an exchage of ideas with you. I never tire to have exchanges on Abhidhamma and Vipassana. If you are interested at the Visuddhimagga, Larry guides us through the whole book, beginning with Ch XIV. I go along reading its Tiika and adding points. Next time we shall study lobha, dosa and moha! We go very slowly, and this is good. We have to consider the Dhamma quietly and take our time. Considering and discussing are the right conditions for developing understanding. It will always be more slowly than we would wish, but the wishing is very tricky. It is actually lobha which counteracts the process of development. I am really looking forward to your input. It is always a favorable condition for considering the Dhamma again and again. It never is enough. Nina. op 05-03-2005 23:30 schreef ianand520 op ianand52@h...: > I came upon your humble group while surfing for information on the > Abhidhamma. 43010 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello One and All Hi, Ian Welcome to DSG from me. This is a very impressive 'spiritual CV' ;-)). Thanks for telling us about your background and different experiences, how you gradually became more focussed on Buddhism and finally Theravada, culminating in your discovery of CMA, Vis and Nina's ADL. I think many of us have followed a similar path but in a slightly more compressed time frame ;-)). I'm sure we will all benefit from your wide experience. Please feel free to chip in on any thread or put up your own thoughts/questions for discussion. Jon ianand520 wrote: >I came upon your humble group while surfing for information on the >Abhidhamma. > >Briefly, I have been a student of comparative religions most of my >adult life, beginning in my early university days. When I first came >upon some reading material about Buddhism, I was most impressed. I >have also studied Hinduism and Taoism. Early on it became apparent to >me that the Eastern philosophies seemed to offer more in the way of >individual development methodology, and thus I have been a lifelong >student and practitioner of these disciplines. > >My formal practice in meditation began some 24 1/2 years ago ... > 43011 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 141 and Tiika Hi, Nina (and Hugo in a PS at the end) For some reason I found the references to remembering/remembrance as an aspect of sati more meaningful when reading this post of yours, than on previous times when I've read similar material. To be honest, I had always thought the description of the function, etc of sati a bit 'tame' compared to the very important role it obviously plays. But as I read in this post about the function of sati being not to forget (regarding kusala), and its proximate cause being firm remembrance conditioned by repeated listening and considering, and your explanation regarding these aspects, (and together with the description in the rest of the passage), it seemed to make good sense in a way it never had before. So many thanks for the opportunity. Jon PS Hugo, one of the threads we left over for future discussion was the subject of the indicators of the proper development of insight. I would like to put a marker here regarding the situation where parts of the texts that were obscure or not particularly meaningful come to have meaning and relevance to one's understanding of the development of insight. Of course, this could be a purely intellectual thing, but it can also be more than that I think, if the new-found appreciation is something that relates to the application of the teachings, in the sense of both confirming and being confirmed by one's experience. nina wrote: >Visuddhimagga XIV, 141 and Tiika > >Intro: >Sati, mindfulness, is a sobhana cetasika, arising with each sobhana citta. >It remembers, is non-forgetful of what is wholesome. The Text uses the word >sara.na, remembering, but this cetasika is different from saññaa, >recognition or remembrance, which arises with each citta. > >Text Vis.: 141. (x) By its means they remember (saranti), or it itself >remembers, >or it is just remembering (sara.na), thus it is 'mindfulness' (sati). > >N: As to the words, they remember (saranti), this refers to the accompanying >dhammas that are conditioned by sati. Just as the Vis. states in the case of >saddhaa: by means of it they have faith. >The Tiika explains that the accompanying dhammas are conditioned by the >predominant influence of sati. When there is such condition it is said in >conventional language (vohaaro) that a person Œremembers¹. >N: He remembers, is non-forgetful of what is wholesome. > >Text Vis. : It has the characteristic of not wobbling. [64] > >Note 64 (from the Tiika). 'Apilaapana' ("not wobbling") is the steadying of >an object, the remembering and not forgetting it, keeping it as immovable as >a >stone instead of letting it go bobbing about like a pumpkin in water'. > >Text Vis. : Its function is not to forget. > >... > 43012 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Proliferations of Perceptions and Memories Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >>My understanding would be that it is the moments of thinking >>consciousness, and/or the associated mental factors, that are >>accumulated, rather than the thoughts as such. >> >> >===================== > Well, I don't care much what the items passed along are called. But >something must be passed along, because remembering is a sankharic operation (or >a sequence of operations) that works on *something*. > Yes, I think it's fairly safe to say that what we call remembering is in fact a series of operations. As I would see it, the present object is marked and there is then a series of thinking processes that compares that marking with previous similar moments of marking of an object (these are available for recall because all moments of consciousness are somehow accumulated). Jon 43013 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' Questions. my father. Hi, Azita gazita2002 wrote: > I noticed the mother did not cry and she told me as we sat >together, that her daughter was happy and it was just us that were >left behing that were sad. I told her that when I see the newborns >at the hospital, I sometimes think that the most certain thing about >their lives is that they will die one day and I felt quite >comfortable saying that to her cos I sensed that she understood that - > and she acknowledged that fact. > > I suppose it's difficult to know another person's cittas, but from your description this sounds like a person who has a good innate sense of the nature of this existence, and of attachment as a cause for grief (rather than someone who is just putting on a brave face or taking comfort in the articles of her belief). Ironically, in conventional terms she may be mistaken as being a person who lacks feeling, or even is uncaring. Your account is a good illustration of how a right perception of the way things are can be a refuge in times of trouble. No 'Can't find a way out' for this lady (so no need to look up, etc;-)). Thanks for the story. Jon 43014 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Can't find your way out?......look.... James Just building on your approach ... >If you can't find your way out, it means YOU'RE asking the wrong >questions. > > ... how about: If you can't find your way out, it's because there is no YOUR way out. Jon 43015 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Hi, Kel I've been following your discussion with interest. I don't wish to buy into the Ledi Sayadaw debate ;-)), but I do have a comment on your original post where, if I remember correctly, you put forward the proposition that insight development could be based on a single chosen dhamma (such as vedana). I'm wondering if this is really what the Ven. Sayadaw is saying in the passage you have quoted. I think he assigns special significance to kaya-gata-sati, but does not go as far in this passage as your earlier statement. Jon kelvin_lwin wrote: >Hi Sarah, > > Tell you what, I'm just going to quote Ledi sayadaw with excerpts >from his Dipani. You can find the full link below: > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6b.htm > > Of the four [satipatthana], if mindfulness or attention is firmly >established on a part of the body, such as on out-breath and in- >breath, it is tantamount to attention being firmly established **on >all things**. This is because the ability to place one's attention >on any object at one's will has been acquired. > >... > > 43016 From: Joop Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 1:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Waters Illusion" wrote: >... > I wrote an essay about my experience being a buddhist...it's > supposedly to be published in Dec. 2005. It's called Bluejean > Buddha Vol.2: Voices of Young Buddhists. > If you want, I can send it to you... Dear Maya (and Sarah) I'm back, and in good health. As Sarah told, an attachment to a DSG-message is not possible. I really like to read your essay. Please send it as a attachment to a email to me jwromeijn@y... And perhaps you can send pages of it as DSG-messages, as Sarah proposed. Or an abstract that is suitable for a DSG-discussion ? To give also some information about myself after asking you so much. I'm a dutchman, and more or less converted myself to a buddhist after my retirement (as a social scientist). For a big part I'm Theravadin but parts of their orthodoxy don't attract me, and I like many Mahayana texts ( about compassion and about emptiness). I have written an article about 'western buddhism', I prefer the term 'global buddhism', special in the situation in the Netherlands and how I hope this 'modern tradition' will be. It will be published in a dutch journal this spring or summer; but I think you cannot read dutch. A abstract of an old draft (I send to Nina) of it was in my DSG message # 41261 Metta Joop 43017 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Hi, Htoo Hope you don't mind if I butt in here ;-)) >In a book written by Professor Mehn Tin Mon learning literature is >simless and I think he wrote something about learing and those 8 >mahakusala cittas. > >You may argue those cittas which arise while learning are lobha muula >cittas. > >Do you think that all cittas that arise while learning is akusala >cittas [lobha here]. > >Reading or learning invlove javana cittas. > > I don't think we can say that cittas that arise while doing this or that are kusala. The most we can say is that certain kinds of action are likely to involve a degree of kusala. But the reality of the particular case may be different. Kusala is of 3 kinds only: dana, sila or bhavana; or of 10 kinds as the punna-kiriya-vatthu. In the case of school learning, I see no reason the think that this should be kusala any more than any other ordinary, everyday activity. >Regarding javana cittas, if they are not kiriya javana they have to >be akusala or kusala. So they at each moment or at each vithi vara >will have only one alternative of akusala and kusala. > >Did Newton have akusala cittas when he discovered the gravity because >of deep thought? > > Well, I would just say that there is no necessary connection between 'deep thought' (a form of concentration) and the arising of kusala citta. Of the 7 jhaana factors (factors that conduce to concentration on a given subject matter), most are cetasikas that arise with both kusala and akusala cittas, and one is an exclusively aksuala cetasika. There are of course many references to concentration in the suttas and other texts, but I would see those references as being to concentration of the kusala kind, and not as supporting the idea that concentration tends to be kusala. Jon 43018 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 2:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Hi Charles, ------------------ C: > To hear this makes me a little sad, because I care: ------------------ Thank you, but I wasn't meaning to paint a picture of despair. There are only fleeting, conditioned dhammas - there is no self that suffers. --------------------------- C: > You wrote: {It is too late to do anything about it - it has already gone. Conditioned realities last less than a billionth of a second and so the idea of doing something about them can only be rooted in ignorance (if I may put it that way). To put it another way: I am glad to know that my lot (dukkha) has a cause and a cessation and that there is a path leading to its cessation, but any desire to do something about it would be a part of the cause, not a part of the path.} C: > Three points: 1) Conditioned realities are cyclic, they are bound to arise again and again, sometimes in different forms (and they can last from less than a billionth of a second to eons). 2) Do you remember how the Buddha became enlightened, and what he said to himself? That was full of desire, a desire so strong that it conquered Mara. What do you think drives Right Effort? What do you think is Right Intention (both effort and intention imply desire, or there would be no need of effort -- which implies a goal -- and no need of intent -- which implies purpose? 3) Yes Desire is the cause, so it must be part of the solution. -------------------------------- 1) Yes, until ignorance has been totally destroyed, dhammas will be conditioned to appear. 2) & 3) Lobha cannot be one of the cetasikas that lead to enlightenment. Only wholesome cetasikas do that. However, lobha is one of the "near enemies" that are commonly mistaken for wholesome. Any aspirations for enlightenment that I might think I have will be mostly lobha (e.g., the unwholesome desire to be admired as a great sage). ----------------- C: > What your answer should have been: to develop the wisdom, practice the morality, and have the concentration to stop the arising of ... ------------------ Yes, I understand that, but desire will not bring those things about. The forerunner on this path is 'right understanding.' ------------------ KH: > > Ignorant worldlings commonly mistake certain unwholesome states for certain wholesome ones. So the former are called the "near enemies" of the latter.} C: > What are the causes of this mistaken states? ------------------ I suppose ignorance is the main cause. Right understanding is acquired only after a long and gradual process. There has to be an enormous amount of Dhamma study, wise consideration, discussion and insight. ------------------ C: > I must ask, is gravity real, is the sun real, is the arising of events real, is ignorance real, is suffering real, is birth real, is mind real, are the sense gates real, was the Buddha real, is the Abidharmma real, ... (I could go on forever)? and, are all these things conditioned (caused) by something ? ------------------- Some of those are just concepts, but others describe absolute realities. Ignorance, suffering, birth, mind and sense gates, for example, refer to realities, but we must remember that realities last less than a billionth of a second. So we would be wrong to think that (say) a family tragedy was the reality, dukkha (suffering), or that our failure to know the names of all the rupas was the reality, moha (ignorance). Realities can be summed up as 6 cittas and 52 cetasikas (which combine in 89 different ways) as well as 28 rupas and one Nibbana. All else is concept - the product of the thinking mind. The sun, for example is only the sun because we give that name to a certain area in space where nuclear reactions etc are known to be occurring. In reality, there is visible object, or there is heat etc., but they are momentary rupas, not sun. And there is thinking about and remembering about sun, but they are only namas. ---------------- C: > Now, if you think what ever you perceive threw the 6 senses are unreal, then why are you ....? ---------------- I am trying to say that only some things are unreal. Everything perceived at the five sense doors and many things perceived at the mind door are real. Illusions appear only at the mind door. The trouble is, only panna understands the difference between illusion and reality, and so, without panna, we mistake thinking for experiencing. ----------------- C: > Don't make the mistake of falling back into the concept of Ultimate Reality/Truth. That destroys your Abidharmic view. In that view, there is no arising, only the unconditioned. For this reason Buddhism has Two, there is also the conditioned, therefore relative. ------------------ Our communication problem must be due to the different schools we are coming from: Theravada doesn't stress mindfulness of the unconditioned the way you have. Ken H PS: I've just had a look at your reply on our other thread: I am an "old Buddhist too!" I started in 1976 (when I was 25). 43019 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 5:18am Subject: Re: The Citta Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi James, > > > James: > > you in on a little secret, I often do that in these Internet > > discussions. I put my mind to an item that needs to be discussed > > I have my own psychic abilities too: Google toolsbar :P > > - kel ;-)) I don't know about psychic, but at times Google is pretty psycho! ;-) Metta, James 43020 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 5:28am Subject: Re: Hello One and All Hi Ian, Ian: For Sarah's benefit (as well as others on this forum who would like to know) I live in the desert southwestern United States in Arizona. As explained above, I have been and remain a monastic, not a householder in Buddhist practitioner terminology. James: Welcome to DSG. I am from Phoenix, Arizona and am now living in Cairo, Egypt. In what part of Arizona do you reside? You say that you're a monastic? Do you mean a Buddhist monk? If you are a monastic, to what temple do you belong? Are you familiar with Wat Promkunaram? I am a disciple of that temple and helped to lead some meditation retreats. If you see Phra Wichit say Hi for me! ;-) Metta, James 43021 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo Hi, Htoo Butting in here also ;-)) >What is in my mind is that 'if javana cittas are not kiriya cittas, >they do have kamma effect'. > >But your thoughts are that if there is no kamma patha there is no >rebirth related to that akusala. > >I sense both are talking on the same subject. > >When I approach 'kamma' while writing Dhamma Thread I will discuss it. > > I look forward to this. I find this a difficult area. My (tentative) understanding is that javana cittas that are kusala or akusala may have effect in one of 3 ways-- - they condition rebirth (that is, if the cetana is kamma patha) - they condition only vipaka citta through the 5 sense-doors (that is, if some but not all of the factors of kamma patha are present) - they do not condition vipaka (that is, none of the factors of kamma patha are present) but are accumulated as part of the anusaya (and so may in due course be of a strength such that they condition rebirth or vipaka of the 5 sense-doors). I'd be interested to know whether this is how you understand it too. Jon 43022 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 5:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eight Conditions for the Arising of Panna/ Vera Sutta Hi, Tep and Sarah It seems that there are 2 (or more) different sets of 4 factors (or tetrads) called 'sotapattiyanga' and having slightly different connotations. Bhikkhu Bodhi in the introduction to the Sotapatti-samyutta of his translation of SN describes the difference like this: <> As I understand it, the 4 factors quoted by Sarah below would fall into the latter category (qualities that must be actualized to attain stream-entry), while the 4 factors mentioned by Tep below would fall into the former category (qualities possessed by a stream-enterer), under the BB classification. I don't know if this helps at all. Jon Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear Sarah - > >S: S: I don't quite see how you read it as specifically >showing `what lay-persons should do in order to become Sotapanna'. >Surely it is describing the benefits or fruit of being a sotapanna >such as the stilling of fear (on account of having no self- >view),four factors of stream entry starting with association with >the wise (usually sappurisa sa.msevo)- associating or resorting to >the right views of the ariyans, hearing true dhamma >(saddhammasavana.m), wise attention (yoniso manasikaaro), practice >in accordance with Dhamma (dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti). > >T: The four factors of stream-entry(Sotapatti) as stated in AN X.92 >(Vera Sutta) are more precise with respect to `what lay-persons >should do in order to become Sotapanna'. Please review the following >excerpt and kindly respond at your convenient time. Thank you much. > >"And which are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is >endowed? > >"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed >with unwavering faith in the Awakened One: ... > >"He is endowed with unwavering faith in the Dhamma: ... > >"He is endowed with unwavering faith in the Sangha: ... > >"He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: ... > >[Excerpt from AN X.92, Vera Sutta]. > > 43023 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: The Citta Hi Connie, Connie: I was sure you'd picked Nanavira because he was supposed to be sotapanna. If I remember correctly, the letter he spoke of it in wasn't supposed to be read until after he'd died... which I think was by suicide because he had some medical problems that interfered with his meditation and any further progress. James: Hmmm…that's interesting. So, he was a self-proclaimed sotapanna and a bit of a drama queen so you naturally think I have a psychic connection to him. Are you trying to tell me something? LOL! Connie: The link I've got for the BBodhi paper died some time ago, but I can send you the file if you like. James: Sure, please do: buddhatrue@y... Connie: Sorry, I could've phrased it better, but that's how it sounds to me and I really am stubbornly stuck on thinking that that's wrong. It's part of what bothers me about what my Maha- and Vajra-yana friends insist on. Kinda like the ex-smoker syndrome. James: This is just attachment to a viewpoint: You're right and they're wrong. Attachment to viewpoints can cause great stress and suffering. Connie: Is that your point, that the citta is outside of time? James: No, I quoted that extra bit because it explained how the viewpoint of cittas as distinct mental states was extrapolated into viewpoints regarding the attainments of the paths and fruits. Unfortunately, these viewpoints, specifically as they regard sotapanna, are at odds with the suttas. Connie: I have to smile at his phrasing when he continues. "It is needless to press this point further: either the reader will already have recognized that this is, for him, a valid objection to the traditional interpretation, or he will not. And if he has not already seen this as an objection, no amount of argument will open his eyes. It is a matter of one's fundamental attitude to one's own existence -- is there, or is there not, a present problem or, rather, anxiety that can only be resolved in the present?" James: I agree with Nanavira Thera on this point and don't agree with Buddhaghosa's interpretation of D.O. into three lifetimes- but I'm sure that doesn't surprise you. Metta, James 43024 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Howard I hope you are having a relaxing break from the helter skelter of life as an active poster on dsg ;-)). This is a reply to the last of your outstanding posts to me in this thread that has been running for some time now. My apologies for the length, but I have gone into some detail in my answers below, hoping to resolve as much as possible of the mis-communication that prevailed earlier in the thread, and knowing that you will not be rushing back with a quick response. > What I say is that the experienced sense-door dhamma ('felt hardness') >is a bodily sensation, and that if there is an external hardness that meets >an arising consciousness, that external hardness and the internal bodily >sensation are not the same. > You have still not told us the basis (logical deduction, direct experience, reading of the texts, etc.) for the idea of there being some form of hardness other than the hardness actually experienced. I recall that in an earlier post in this thread you claimed that the rupas spoken of in the Abhidhamma were 'external' and 'assumed' (i.e., not actually experienced), while yours were directly experienced and 'internal'/'felt' (which you explained by saying they are derived from the external ones), but I have no idea what the basis of that inference is. If this is an idea you have gained from the writings of a particular writer/group of writers, then you may like to check the sources that are quoted there, to see if they support the thesis. (My own observation: it sounds like something said by someone who has their own view of things to promote -- first, characterise the opposing view in a way that suits one's thesis ...) (I know you gave us the analogy of the nerve pathways and brain, but that is a description of how you see things to be, and not why you consider them to be like that.) A further point that arises in connection with your comments about 'external rupas' is how you see this as being compatible with your insistence on not assuming the existence of something that is 'unexperienced and therefore in principle unverifiable'. Your 'external rupas' are by definition unexperienced by you. > I understand the impingement to be the co-arising of sense door, >sensation, and consciousness, and I believe that co-occurrence is observed through >the mind door. But I also can understand the alternative view of a rupa >arising [the matter of "where" is probably a red herring], a sense door opening, >consciousness resulting, and the three literally coming together. But the more I >think about that scenario, the more and more complex the matters of timing and >occurrence seem to me, and the less and less likely the scenario appears. >That is my take on the matter. I may just not be up to the task of seeing this >matter as it should be seen. Whatever! ;-) > > While it's understandable that you would want to come to a conclusive view one way or the other, I wonder whether this is a practicable expectation to have. Surely such matters are beyond us at this stage of our development. To hold a firm view that is contrary to the ancient commentaries, on the basis of a reading of selected parts of the suttas, seems to me to be placing an unrealistically high reliance on one's own intellectual capability. > I *do* allow the possibility. I merely say that it is unconfirmable. >Sensations are directly experienced. Proposed external rupas, while not at all >absurd, are presumed to be directly experienced, but that is not known as a >fact. I simply find great difficulties with that proposal, and I am not prepared >to jump onto that particular bandwagon. > From my perspective, it is you who keeps bringing up the subject of 'proposed external rupas'! ;-)) Let me explain what I mean. My question was: "On what basis (logical deduction, direct experience, reading of the texts, etc.) do you not allow the possibility that the experienced hardness (your 'felt hardness') is the hardness that impinges on the body-door (i.e., instead of being 'derived from' that hardness/impingement)?" The question asks about your own statement and declared position, so if you see 'proposed external rupas' in the question it comes from that source alone. I'm afraid you cannot answer the question by saying you are not prepared to contemplate so-called 'proposed external rupas', because it is you who has raised the 'internal and felt' vs. 'external and not directly experienced' dichotomy, as part of your assertion that there is a difference between your version and what is found in the Abhidhamma. So I think my question still has not been answered ;-)) As a further comment, it seems to me that in creating this dichotomy you are postulating the existence of a 'world out there', namely, the world of the 'external but not directly hardness' from which the 'internal and felt hardness' is derived. > I do not believe that it is your position that there are >never unobserved, but still existent, rupas. Perhaps you don't mean that? > Well as I see it the question of whether or not there are so-called 'never unobserved, but still existent, rupas' is irrelevant to the discussion. Our discussion concerns only the rupa that is the present sense-door object, and in particular the precise moment of its arising vis-a-vis that of the experiencing consciousness. (If you still see the question of 'never unobserved, but still existent, rupas' coming into the picture here, I'm afraid you'll have to explain the connection.) > You say that I can use the definition I wish, but then you don't use >that definition. If I talk about A while you talk about B but assume we are >talking about the same thing, it makes for an odd conversation. ;-) > I beg to differ ;-)) I am using your definition of rupa, and I am saying that even accepting that definition there is still the question of when that rupa arose. To explain, you start your definition by saying: "When I speak of a rupa, I mean a physical experience - a specific instance of content of consciousness..." OK, so far so good. Rupa to you is 'just that which is object of consciousness'. But then you go on to say: "... Rupas in my sense, by their very nature, never occur except as content of experience." This is no longer a definition, but an assertion about what has just been defined. The assertion is that that which is object of consciousness can have no subsistence except as object of consciousness. Well, as I see it, that is the very question we are trying to resolve! It cannot be answered by 'defining' things to be the way you would like the answer to be ;-)) (And we have already agreed that things can co-occur, that is to say, may be co-arisen, without having arisen at precisely the same time.) So I am accepting the definition part of your statement and am asking for an explanation of the basis (logical deduction, direct experience, reading of the texts, etc.) on the rest of it, where you say that what is the object of consciousness (your definition of 'rupa') can have no subsistence outside it's being the object of consciousness. Finally, there is one other part of your post I have commented on before but not had your response on. You say that your perspective is that 'there is no content without consciousness', and you have defined 'content' to mean only that which is currently being experienced by consciousness. To me that leaves a statement that says nothing of any substance, but I may be missing something. I look forward to hearing from you again after your break. Jon 43025 From: Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Proliferations of Perceptions and Memories Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/6/2005 3:20:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > >Hi, Howard > >upasaka@a... wrote: > >>>My understanding would be that it is the moments of thinking >>>consciousness, and/or the associated mental factors, that are >>>accumulated, rather than the thoughts as such. >>> >>> >>===================== >> Well, I don't care much what the items passed along are called. But >>something must be passed along, because remembering is a sankharic operation (or >>a sequence of operations) that works on *something*. >> > >Yes, I think it's fairly safe to say that what we call remembering is in >fact a series of operations. As I would see it, the present object is >marked and there is then a series of thinking processes that compares >that marking with previous similar moments of marking of an object >(these are available for recall because all moments of consciousness are >somehow accumulated). ------------------------- Howard: Yes, I see the matter much as you do. But I think it is exactly the business of (the exact nature of) what is "accumulated" (or, better perhaps, what is "re-created and modified") that is not so clear. ------------------------- > >Jon ========================= With metta, Howard 43026 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: The Citta Hi, James, Connie: I was sure you'd picked Nanavira because he was supposed to be sotapanna. If I remember correctly, the letter he spoke of it in wasn't supposed to be read until after he'd died... which I think was by suicide because he had some medical problems that interfered with his meditation and any further progress. James: Hmmm…that's interesting. So, he was a self-proclaimed sotapanna and a bit of a drama queen so you naturally think I have a psychic connection to him. Are you trying to tell me something? LOL! Connie: I think we're all drama queens, keeping our own story lines going, stuck in our views and their consequences. The links I saw between Nanavira and A.Mun were their supposed ariyan status and their non-traditional (Thera) interpretations of certain things. But, yeah, I guess that fits you, too. I know people who'd say we're Bodhisattas and base their arguments on how I see the nature of the citta being presented in the A.Mun bio. BBodhi's answer to "Clearing the Path" is in the mail. James: No, I quoted that extra bit because it explained how the viewpoint of cittas as distinct mental states was extrapolated into viewpoints regarding the attainments of the paths and fruits. Unfortunately, these viewpoints, specifically as they regard sotapanna, are at odds with the suttas. Connie: LOL... ok, so it had nothing to do with my question but was just furthering your own agenda. Which is what? Confirming A.Mun's arahant status? Why wasn't he a Bodhisatta? peace, connie 43027 From: Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Jon - I don't like to save up posts for answering later, so I will give a brief reply now, but I would hope to hold off on further discussion at this time. Some remarks follow below in context In a message dated 3/6/2005 9:16:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > >Hi, Howard > >I hope you are having a relaxing break from the helter skelter of life >as an active poster on dsg ;-)). > >This is a reply to the last of your outstanding posts to me in this >thread that has been running for some time now. My apologies for the >length, but I have gone into some detail in my answers below, hoping to >resolve as much as possible of the mis-communication that prevailed >earlier in the thread, and knowing that you will not be rushing back >with a quick response. > >> What I say is that the experienced sense-door dhamma ('felt hardness') >>is a bodily sensation, and that if there is an external hardness that meets >>an arising consciousness, that external hardness and the internal bodily >>sensation are not the same. >> > >You have still not told us the basis (logical deduction, direct >experience, reading of the texts, etc.) for the idea of there being some >form of hardness other than the hardness actually experienced. I recall >that in an earlier post in this thread you claimed that the rupas spoken >of in the Abhidhamma were 'external' and 'assumed' (i.e., not actually >experienced), while yours were directly experienced and >'internal'/'felt' (which you explained by saying they are derived from >the external ones), but I have no idea what the basis of that inference is. ------------------------- Howard: Jon, I believe we share the view that there is only one object (e.g., hardness) that is experienced. The difference is in what we take that to be. You, as I understand it, take it to be some thing or event that arises and ceases on its own and that may or may not be experirnced by an arising act of consciousness. I, on the other hand, consider the dhamma to be an experiential phenomenon/event that occurs only as an element of experience. For you, the experirncing of the dhamma is a literal coming together of three separate phenomena: the dhamma (which can exist unexperienced), the sense door (which arises only in dependence on a waiting object), and the sense consciousness (which arises only in dependence on the other two being already in effect). I, on the other hand, see a co-arising and mutual dependency of the three, but with the type of consciousness dependent on the type of sense object and door. Again, to me, all rupas are experiential. If the notion of group of rupas is correct - I never saw that in any sutta (Is it in the Abhidhamma per se?) - I would still consider the entire group to arise in a mindstate, but with only one rupa in the group reaching the threshhold required for "registering" as an object of consciousness, and with the others occurring subliminally. (Again, Jon, I'm replying with all this just to try to let you understand my perspective. I'm not looking for an extended conversation on the topic at this time.) For the record, I see your "independent-rupa perspective" to be a perfectly reasonable one and even having much appeal. It simply is not my perspective at this time. --------------------------- > >If this is an idea you have gained from the writings of a particular >writer/group of writers, then you may like to check the sources that are >quoted there, to see if they support the thesis. (My own observation: >it sounds like something said by someone who has their own view of >things to promote -- first, characterise the opposing view in a way that >suits one's thesis ...) > >(I know you gave us the analogy of the nerve pathways and brain, but >that is a description of how you see things to be, and not why you >consider them to be like that.) -------------------------- My main reason for my perspective, aside from aesthetic preference, is pragmatic, because I have no basis for knowing the existence of unobserved rupas. --------------------------- > >A further point that arises in connection with your comments about >'external rupas' is how you see this as being compatible with your >insistence on not assuming the existence of something that is >'unexperienced and therefore in principle unverifiable'. Your 'external >rupas' are by definition unexperienced by you. > >> I understand the impingement to be the co-arising of sense door, >>sensation, and consciousness, and I believe that co-occurrence is observed through >>the mind door. But I also can understand the alternative view of a rupa >>arising [the matter of "where" is probably a red herring], a sense door opening, >>consciousness resulting, and the three literally coming together. But the more I >>think about that scenario, the more and more complex the matters of timing and >>occurrence seem to me, and the less and less likely the scenario appears. >>That is my take on the matter. I may just not be up to the task of seeing this >>matter as it should be seen. Whatever! ;-) >> >> > >While it's understandable that you would want to come to a conclusive >view one way or the other, I wonder whether this is a practicable >expectation to have. Surely such matters are beyond us at this stage of >our development. ----------------------------- Howard: I agree. My perspective is tentstive. In fact, I have been paying increased attention to other perspectives recently, and with increasing appreciation. ----------------------------- To hold a firm view that is contrary to the ancient >commentaries, on the basis of a reading of selected parts of the suttas, >seems to me to be placing an unrealistically high reliance on one's own >intellectual capability. ---------------------------- Howard: To hold a firm view makes no sense, ancient commentaries or not. But for the record, I dismiss truth by authority as a valid means of knowledge. I accept what I believe to be the Buddha word because I have come to directly see its truth and value in my life. ---------------------------- > >> I *do* allow the possibility. I merely say that it is unconfirmable. >>Sensations are directly experienced. Proposed external rupas, while not at all >>absurd, are presumed to be directly experienced, but that is not known as a >>fact. I simply find great difficulties with that proposal, and I am not prepared >>to jump onto that particular bandwagon. >> > > From my perspective, it is you who keeps bringing up the subject of >'proposed external rupas'! ;-)) ---------------------------- Howard: What I mean by an external rupa is a rupa that exists but may or may not be experienced. That is all I mean, and I do believe they are what you believe in. ---------------------------- Let me explain what I mean. > >My question was: "On what basis (logical deduction, direct experience, >reading of the texts, etc.) do you not allow the possibility that the >experienced hardness (your 'felt hardness') is the hardness that >impinges on the body-door (i.e., instead of being 'derived from' that >hardness/impingement)?" > >The question asks about your own statement and declared position, so if >you see 'proposed external rupas' in the question it comes from that >source alone. > > I'm afraid you cannot answer the question by saying you are not >prepared to contemplate so-called 'proposed external rupas', because it >is you who has raised the 'internal and felt' vs. 'external and not >directly experienced' dichotomy, as part of your assertion that there is >a difference between your version and what is found in the Abhidhamma. > >So I think my question still has not been answered ;-)) > >As a further comment, it seems to me that in creating this dichotomy you >are postulating the existence of a 'world out there', namely, the world >of the 'external but not directly hardness' from which the 'internal and >felt hardness' is derived. ------------------------- Howard: Please see above what I mean by "external rupa". -------------------------- > >> I do not believe that it is your position that there are >>never unobserved, but still existent, rupas. Perhaps you don't mean that? >> > >Well as I see it the question of whether or not there are so-called >'never unobserved, but still existent, rupas' is irrelevant to the >discussion. Our discussion concerns only the rupa that is the present >sense-door object, and in particular the precise moment of its arising >vis-a-vis that of the experiencing consciousness. (If you still see the >question of 'never unobserved, but still existent, rupas' coming into >the picture here, I'm afraid you'll have to explain the connection.) --------------------------- Howard: Done. -------------------------- > >> You say that I can use the definition I wish, but then you don't use >>that definition. If I talk about A while you talk about B but assume we are >>talking about the same thing, it makes for an odd conversation. ;-) >> > >I beg to differ ;-)) I am using your definition of rupa, and I am >saying that even accepting that definition there is still the question >of when that rupa arose. > >To explain, you start your definition by saying: "When I speak of a >rupa, I mean a physical experience - a specific instance of content of >consciousness..." OK, so far so good. Rupa to you is 'just that which >is object of consciousness'. > >But then you go on to say: "... Rupas in my sense, by their very >nature, never occur except as content of experience." This is no longer >a definition, but an assertion about what has just been defined. The >assertion is that that which is object of consciousness can have no >subsistence except as object of consciousness. > >Well, as I see it, that is the very question we are trying to resolve! >It cannot be answered by 'defining' things to be the way you would like >the answer to be ;-)) (And we have already agreed that things can >co-occur, that is to say, may be co-arisen, without having arisen at >precisely the same time.) > >So I am accepting the definition part of your statement and am asking >for an explanation of the basis (logical deduction, direct experience, >reading of the texts, etc.) on the rest of it, where you say that what >is the object of consciousness (your definition of 'rupa') can have no >subsistence outside it's being the object of consciousness. > >Finally, there is one other part of your post I have commented on before >but not had your response on. You say that your perspective is that >'there is no content without consciousness', and you have defined >'content' to mean only that which is currently being experienced by >consciousness. To me that leaves a statement that says nothing of any >substance, but I may be missing something. > >I look forward to hearing from you again after your break. > >Jon ============================= More in the future, Jon. (But not too soon, please. :-) With metta, Howard 43028 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 9:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Hi Ken, You wrote: PS: I've just had a look at your reply on our other thread: I am an "old Buddhist too!" I started in 1976 (when I was 25). I am glad you caught this, it is totally wrong, and the numbers don't add up. I was born 1960, and I started studying in 10th grade (that is really how I remember it, everything else is due to a calculation from that) I must have been 14 or 15. My history teacher got me on this trip about understanding myself and life. **** I wrote before: Don't make the mistake of falling back into the concept of Ultimate Reality/Truth. That destroys your Abidharmic view. In that view, there is no arising, only the unconditioned. For this reason Buddhism has Two, there is also the conditioned, therefore relative. - - - - - - - You replied with: Our communication problem must be due to the different schools we are coming from: Theravada doesn't stress mindfulness of the unconditioned the way you have. . . . . . . . . This is part of the source/basis of your communication problem. The other part is that I have been trying to change you view -- unsuccessfully I might add :-) anyway back to the point :-D The Theravada school does teach the unconditioned the way I explained (they don't really stress the unconditioned because it is the end, not the journey). Your focus is the Abidharma, which is a very small part of the Theravadan tradition, This also goes for may other schools of Buddhism. What has happen is people get part of a picture or they forget the other parts and also a mistranslation has taken place (the Idea of no-essence/soul/atman becoming no-self) also (the point of no-thing you can own/control completely becoming no-self). **** I see now I can't respond to from the bottom up, so, to the beginning *** You wrote: ... I wasn't meaning to paint a picture of despair. There are only fleeting, conditioned dhammas - there is no self that suffers. - - - - - I understood that, however you point out that, at times there is suffering. The question was about those times. **** Before I wrote: Three points: 1) Conditioned realities are cyclic, they are bound to arise again and again, sometimes in different forms (and they can last from less than a billionth of a second to eons). 2) Do you remember how the Buddha became enlightened, and what he said to himself? That was full of desire, a desire so strong that it conquered Mara. What do you think drives Right Effort? What do you think is Right Intention? Both effort and intention imply desire, or there would be no need of effort -- which implies a goal -- and no need of intent -- which implies purpose. 3) Yes Desire is the cause, so it must be part of the solution. You replied: {1) Yes, until ignorance has been totally destroyed, dhammas will be conditioned to appear. 2) & 3) Lobha cannot be one of the cetasikas that lead to enlightenment. Only wholesome cetasikas do that. However, lobha is one of the "near enemies" that are commonly mistaken for wholesome. Any aspirations for enlightenment that I might think I have will be mostly lobha (e.g., the unwholesome desire to be admired as a great sage).} You are going to have to drop the pali and sanscrit when writing to me, I don't understand it and you run the risk of saying something that I have a totally different understanding of. Plus real comprehension is shown when you can explain things in words that the receiver can understand. Point 2 of my original post presented a few of questions, I thought you liked questions; if so then you forgot to try and answer them. (Never be scared to admit or face truth, when you are it usually means that you are full of self in a bad way.) However, if the answers are Desire I understand you avoidance. ***** I wrote: What your answer should have been: to develop the wisdom, practice the morality, and have the concentration to stop the arising of ... You replied with: Yes, I understand that, but desire will not bring those things about. The forerunner on this path is 'right understanding.' How do these things arise (wisdom, morality, and concentration) are you born with them? If there is no desire for them, will they come by magic, especially morality and concentration? The three of these have to be worked on. When you get to the point where there should be even without desire for them, you are already there. That is the only reason. To most learned Buddhist, the path is graded. It implies a development process. If you do not desire to be free from ignorance you will always be in ignorance; unless it floats away on its own; Do you believe that? Do you believe no matter how bad a person wants to remain in ignorance they will lose it and become wise? *********** At some point you wrote: {... Ignorant worldlings commonly mistake certain unwholesome states for certain wholesome ones. So the former are called the "near enemies" of the latter.} . . . . I replied with: What are the causes of this mistaken states? . . . . . You replied with: I suppose ignorance is the main cause. Right understanding is acquired only after a long and gradual process. There has to be an enormous amount of Dhamma study, wise consideration, discussion and insight. . . . . . . I have to say: Ignorance is a good answer, but it is only the surface. For a more accurate answer you have to look deeper into the mind. Understanding is not the issue here, it is more a question of what are the processes that case this mistake to arise. I know this is a tough question but to me, this is when we talk Abidharma. ***** I asked a bunch of question about what is real and I asked if these things are conditioned (caused) by something. You replied with: {Some of those are just concepts, but others describe absolute realities. Ignorance, suffering, birth, mind and sense gates, for example, refer to realities, but we must remember that realities last less than a billionth of a second. So we would be wrong to think that (say) a family tragedy was the reality, dukkha (suffering), or that our failure to know the names of all the rupas was the reality, moha (ignorance). Realities can be summed up as 6 cittas and 52 cetasikas (which combine in 89 different ways) as well as 28 rupas and one Nibbana. All else is concept - the product of the thinking mind. The sun, for example is only the sun because we give that name to a certain area in space where nuclear reactions etc are known to be occurring. In reality, there is visible object, or there is heat etc., but they are momentary rupas, not sun. And there is thinking about and remembering about sun, but they are only namas.} . . . . . Since you agree that some of them are real, you need to think about whether those things you consider real have causes. The rest are labels, like the sun, and you seem to agree that a certain area in space where nuclear reactions etc., is real too. Now if that is real, are labels real? oh, if not then how is it that they can be used? Now here is a point we seem to disagree: you say -- "realities last less than a billionth of a second." I say -- "realities can last from less than a billionth of a second to eons." I have to ask, do you believe the 5 realms are real or a figment of imagination? Charles PS: yes there is change but that does-not make things less real. 43029 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken - part 3 - ultimate (Abhidhamma) view Hi Ken This one almost slip by me. But now that I have read it, it is difficult to reply to but any way. I ask: How are the Buddha's rules fundamentally different from other people's rules? I liked your answer: ... 'the Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching should be understood in terms of satipatthana.' ... So satipatthana is a moment of insight into the nature of conditioned reality. but this needs to be explained farther. What you wrote below is quite confusing. **** I asked: How is it that a conventional understanding of rules and precepts is not a way out of samsara? . . . . . . You replied with: {A conventional understanding of the precepts can lead to the performance of kusala kamma. In fact, most types of kusala kamma can be performed without any knowledge of the Buddha's teaching, and they nevertheless lead to rebirth in happy realms of existence. Ultimately, however, all existence (happy or unhappy) is nothing more than the presently arising five aggregates of clinging (the five khandhas), and it is these five aggregates that the Buddha described as samsara. Only satipatthana leads to Path-consciousness (enlightenment), and only Path-consciousness leads to final release from samsara (final extinction of the aggregates).} . . . . You are partially right. Here is a simpler explanation: precepts are a training method to help end the creation of bad karma, that alone is not enough. Precept keeping does require concentration and are conducive to the development of wisdom; however it does-not give the practitioner wisdom, and it only tests ones concentration (this could lead to improvement or a the opposite). Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau Hi Charles, C: > What is satipatthana? -------------------- I agree this has to be defined because various Dhamma students use the word in various ways. Satipatthana is the four bases of mindfulness. A moment of right mindfulness is often given the name, 'a moment of satipatthana,' or just, 'satipatthana.' It is a moment when a conditioned dhamma that has appeared at one of the six doors becomes the object of right understanding, right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. So satipatthana is a moment of insight into the nature of conditioned reality. It is not to be confused with a moment of insight into the nature of unconditioned reality (Nibbana). They are both vipassana, but the former tends to be called satipatthana, or mundane path consciousness, and the latter tends to be called enlightenment or supramundane Path-consciousness (Magga-citta). ---------------------------- C: > How is it that a conventional understanding of rules and precepts is not a way out of samsara? ---------------------------- A conventional understanding of the precepts can lead to the performance of kusala kamma. In fact, most types of kusala kamma can be performed without any knowledge of the Buddha's teaching, and they nevertheless lead to rebirth in happy realms of existence. Ultimately, however, all existence (happy or unhappy) is nothing more than the presently arising five aggregates of clinging (the five khandhas), and it is these five aggregates that the Buddha described as samsara. Only satipatthana leads to Path-consciousness (enlightenment), and only Path-consciousness leads to final release from samsara (final extinction of the aggregates). ----------------------------------- C: > I do not understand what you mean by "... precepts are kept at specific moments of consciousness when a virati cetasika (abstention from either wrong-speech, wrong-deed or wrong-livelihood) is present." ----------------------------------- If we are to see every word of the Buddha's teaching in terms of satipatthana, then precept keeping is certainly to be seen that way. So, which conditioned dhammas arise (either in sense-door or mind- door processes) when there is precept keeping? How do they differ from dhammas that arise at other kusala moments? The presence of virati cetasika is one difference that stands out. Virati is the mental factor that abstains from an opportunity to perform seriously wrong action (akusala kamma-patha). I am not saying this kind of knowledge equals the practice of satipatthana: it is only an intellectual understanding of the dhammas that arise. When panna (right understanding), sati (right mindfulness) and the other right factors arise to take any one of those dhammas as their object, then there is a moment of satipatthana. ----------------------------------- C: > Monks from two totally different traditions said to me that the keeping precepts is essential all the time, and without this practice, one would run the risk of being dishonored or worst-- disrobed. ------------------------------------- A monk's way of life involves abiding by the rules of training, and there are specific reasons for this that do not apply to the lay- follower's way of life. However, a monk must understand the difference between accepting the rules of training and practising the Buddha's teaching - satipatthana. Only satipatthana leads to enlightenment. Rule keeping has other benefits. (Several DSG members have explained the mechanics of rule keeping, but I haven't really understood them as yet.) -------------------- C: > I have learned to see precepts the way they (the orders of monks and nuns) do and there is no great mystery in it. -------------------- No, there is no great mystery in conventional reality - even a child can understand most of it. But the reality described by the Buddha is totally composed of paramattha dhammas. That, ultimate, reality is truly profound and incredibly hard to see. --------------------------- C: > Sometimes while seeking mystery we overlook the obvious, sometimes. I try not to do that; that is the kind of man I am. ----------------------------- Then you are in good company here at DSG. By studying Dhamma, we can have a sane, well-balanced understanding of the world. There is no need to seek 'mysterious' 'out of this world' experiences. Ken H 43030 From: mnease Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 9:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(e) Hi Sarah and Nina, This sutta's an old favorite of mine, thanks for this excerpt. I've also been interested lately in the role of vitakka in insight. I'm curious about the detail below: ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: "dsg" Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 9:58 PM Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(e) > "This thought of sense-pleasures has arisen in me, but...it is destructive of intuitive wisdom..." and so on. What is the Paali for 'intuitive wisdom' and how are these thoughts destructive of it? If 'intuitive wisdom' referred to insight, I would have thought that this would accumulate and condition subsequent cittas regardless of thinking. Is there anything in the commentaries pertinent to this? Thanks in advance. mike p.s. I'd like also to thank Ken O. for his recent stressings of the importance of hetu-paccaya. This concept (as opposed to the dhamma) was one of the first attractions to Dhamma for me and now I'm finding it very useful for understanding e.g. parts of pa.ticcasamuppaada. Ken's repeated reminders have been most helpful. 43031 From: Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi again, Jon - One further comment. I had written "My main reason for my perspective, aside from aesthetic preference, is pragmatic, because I have no basis for knowing the existence of unobserved rupas." Now, I anticipate that you might well ask "Well, then, how is it that you accept the idea of a group of rupas arising together (experientially) yet with all but one unobserved?" In reply I would say the following: 1) I don't know this group business to be a fact, but 2) Assuming that it is a fact, I would still consider the entire group to arise, as it were, "on the stage of consciousness", but with only one rupa sufficiently intense to register as objective support for consciousness. In this regard, I also would presume that a Buddha (if not an "ordinary" arahant) would be actually aware of *all* the rupas in a group. I presume this under the assumption that a Buddha would actually *know*, by direct insight, the fact of rupa-groups, and not just by inductive or deductive inference. Jon, it would, of course, be unfair for me to write this and require that the conversation go no further at present. So please feel free to reply! But forgive me please, if I don't then continue the thread further at this time. I don't want to allow myself to drawn back into the intellectual eddy that I got myself into before. I will save any further comments you have for future reply to you. (Don't worry - unfortunately I'm a "DSG junkie"! ;-) With metta, Howard 43032 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(e) Hi Mike, op 06-03-2005 18:56 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: > Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, > Sustained thinking/Vicaara(e) > > >> "This thought of sense-pleasures has arisen in me, but...it is destructive > of intuitive wisdom..." and so on. > > What is the Paali for 'intuitive wisdom' and how are these thoughts > destructive of it? If 'intuitive wisdom' referred to insight, I would have > thought that this would accumulate and condition subsequent cittas > regardless of thinking. Is there anything in the commentaries pertinent to > this? N: I looked at the Thai Co and B.B.'s notes. This passage refers to the Buddha when he was a Bodhisatta and commenced the six years of intense striving before his enlightenment. Sense pleasures would obstruct his goal, they do not lead to nibbana. The sutta passage does not state that they cannot be objects of awareness. In fact the Bodhisatta must have been aware of them, how otherwise would he realize their presence? He saw the disadvantage and danger of them. The Co is long. I just see that the Bodhisatta had samaadhi and also taru.na vipassanaa, tender insight. These are the first three stages. He alternated samatha and vipassana. Nina. 43033 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Great Elements as Foundation /feelings change Hi Nina, I don't know pali or Sanskrit at all so it is had to give a good (accurate) comment, but here goes. N: There are different conditions at work for different realities, that makes it complex. C: Complex/compounded C: If by sannaa you mean perception (becoming aware of something), that is the key player. In the USA there is a saying about some people -- They see through rose colored glasses. In this case, altering perception to effect feelings. If I am really happy today, every thing worked out extremely well, I don't mine getting a flat tire on my way home from work. But if the opposite happens, the flat tire might take me over the edge. N: ... Also contact changes all the time. C: this changing is mainly due to cycle of concocting (thinking, racing thoughts, inner gossip) and coming back to the object. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom Charles: Present feelings effect future feeling to the extent that the contact appears to last. N: Sure, the citta that arises now and that is accompanied by feeling, contact and other cetasikas conditions the subsequent citta and cetasikas arising in one process by contiguity condition. There are different conditions at work for different realities, that makes it complex. Ch: I like to say that the present birth of a feeling has been colored by past feelings. N: Saññaa also plays its part, doesn't it? Ch: For this reason your feelings about an object could change. N: Right. Also contact changes all the time. Nina. 43034 From: Illusion Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 1:05pm Subject: Bluejean Buddha Dear Dhamma Friends, I have written a few essays that will be published on Dec. 2005 in a book titled Bluejean Buddha Vol. 2: Voices of Young Buddhists. May you all benefit from my writing, enjoy! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maya Putra Houston 2560 words to 1285 Growing up in Indonesia for eight years, I was raised as a Buddhist. My mom was my greatest influence; she brought me to Sunday school and taught me most of everything I now know about Buddhism through a series of Jataka Tales, stories of the Buddha's past lives. As a little kid, the Buddha was a role model for me, and when I ran into trouble, I would ask myself, "How would Buddha handle this situation?" As I grew older, I became interested in meditation, especially the technique taught by S.N. Goenka called vipassana. Through vipassana, I have become more aware of myself, my relationships with people, and the environment. I've grown as a Buddhist through the little things that happen in life rather than big moments. A few years ago, I bought an *NSYNC CD at a bargain. One of my friends really liked that album and had a copy of it herself. However, she wasn't satisfied with her CD because it was an illegal copy and couldn't be played on the computer, as mine could. One day, while I wasn't looking, she slipped my enhanced CD into her CD case and put another CD on top so that I couldn't see it. Even though I noticed that she'd done this, I couldn't bring myself to confront her about it. After she left, I checked my CD case and saw that in fact mine was missing. I began to cry, not because I had been duped or for the loss of my CD, but because I felt bad she made such a foolish decision. Had she the courage to ask me, I would have willingly given it to her as I never really fancied *NSYNC to begin with. I decided to call and confront her. She denied the whole thing, claiming that I had wrongly accused her. Not wanting to start a fight, I let it go. The next day she came to my house and gave me a compensation gift. At the door, I told her that I still believed she took my CD and that she could keep it if she'd like. She became angry with me and said that she never wanted anything to do with me, then left. When I opened the gift, I found the counterfeit CD inside. Seeing that this was not mine, I returned it to her with a note saying something like, "Thank you for your generous offer, but I do not want to take what is not rightfully mine. Even though you might not consider me as a friend, I would always consider you to be one." That evening, she knocked on my door with my enhanced CD in hand. She apologized and I forgave her. A few months later, I gave the CD to her as a birthday gift and since then we've never touched that subject again. These little interactions help me grow as a Buddhist. A few years ago, I took two meditation courses. One, which was referred by my aunt, was called anapanasati, the mindfulness of breathing. The other was a healing meditation similar to Goenka's technique. I became so interested in Goenka's meditation courses that I registered myself and my mom for one of his courses as a surprise birthday gift for her. Last year, we had the opportunity to see Goenkaji himself when he came to Houston, as we were part of a welcoming committee. I found the vipassana course very challenging because it required ten days of noble silence and self-observation. I appreciated the fact that the food and accommodation were free and that the courses welcomed everyone, including non-Buddhists. Vipassana has helped me begin to figure out the mysteries of life; it has opened my eyes to the truth in life and all the ignorance that exists in this world. How delightful it is to know Dhamma in this ever-stressful society of ours! I maintain a vipassana practice at least once a day and occasionally sit with a group on Mondays. After having taken the vipassana course, I'm more aware of what I do. For example, I would often question myself, "Why do I get up in the morning only to find myself bound to this unceasing cycle of daily activities?" I am somewhat of an Internet geek and spend an average of ten to twenty hours a week sitting in front of the monitor. Whether chatting, web browsing, or posting messages, the Internet plays a big role in my religious growth. I chat on various servers such as IRC, Yahoo, MSN, AA, and ICQ. Recently, I've been chatting on Buddhist Chat 1 because this is one of the few rooms where people don't use vulgar references. I feel I can develop the intellectual side of Buddhism through dialogue with people. There's one person with whom I discuss sutras and also have become virtual friends. Some of the topics the room discusses are the difference between good and evil, reincarnation (which always provokes controversy), evolution versus religion, and the different techniques of meditation. The participants range in different practices such as Nichiren, Dzogchen, Pure Land, Mahayana, and Theravada. Age groups also vary from teenagers to seniors--usually I'm the youngest. I am also a member of a few Internet clubs, one of which is called "DhammaCakraTra_USA" in Yahoo. This group is dedicated towards Indonesian Buddhists of which currently consists of 97 Indonesians living in the US and of those 26 are Houstonians. Occasionally, we have gatherings when those 26 members including myself pray together and listen to tape lectures. This gives Indonesian Buddhists within the Greater Houston area a chance to expand their Buddhist understanding and hold Dhamma discussions in our own Indonesian language. Buddhism has embedded in me the awareness of conserving nature and the environment. I love getting involved with community service such as taking care of plants, raking leaves, recycling, cleaning up beaches, and making bird houses. I'm currently an active member of the Student Environmental Art Council (SEAC), which is a part of Natural Legacy. In July of 2002, I attended an art and science camp sponsored by SEAC and a few other organizations. At camp, there were tons of mosquitoes swarming around just waiting for the right moment to attack the victim's juicy blood. That summer, the West Nile Virus inflicting mosquitoes were making headlines. Most of my friends would constantly swat the mosquitoes erratically killing most of them, which I found to be somewhat disturbing. In my opinion killing mosquitoes is not a solution because more are bound to come your way and by the time you know it, you'll be slapping yourself endlessly. I was certainly not going to be the one suffering, so I decided it would be best to apply insect repellent. Not only did this guarantee my body to be bug free, but also it was definitely another way to avoid killing them. Instead of swatting them, I would try to generate compassion to one of nature's smaller beings and accept their nature of blood sucking as a way of survival, similar to how humans compete for jobs or status. It might seem irrational to most people to condone their actions when mosquitoes are clearly making your life miserable. Who's to say that mosquitoes are making your life miserable? On the contrary, to some beings (such as swallows, mosquito fishes, and flycatchers) mosquitoes are a delicacy. I believe misery is only found within one's mind because mind and matter are two different things. Buddhism has truly made an impact on my principles and actions in making this world a better place for all beings. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." 43035 From: Illusion Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 1:27pm Subject: Water, Life, and Death Dear Dhamma friends, I'd also like to share with you all my thoughts on life and death...this is something I wrote a year ago. Enjoy! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Recently I have undergone a series of depression for reasons that are beyond me. Perhaps it was from excessive work and stress that's been put upon my shoulders. Or perhaps it's a phase that every teenager goes through at the peak of maturity. Whatever it maybe, I have never been quite the same person since. It has completely changed my outlook on life, goals, and aspirations. I sit here in this dim room feeling so unmotivated, trying to understand who I am, why I'm here, and the purpose of my existence. This recent depression has driven me away from friends and family. I found that water was my only means of comfort--water w/ its tenderness, subtlety, and breath-taking movements. I find real peace and comfort in water, perhaps because of its neutrality--so pure of a substance, untainted. That's just what I need right now, a place to unload w/o having anyone judge me--someone, something, or some means of expression that I could count on; that can be there to absorb whatever I throw at it w/ understanding and sympathy. Water behaves like that very medium. Every time I look at a body of water, I feel at ease...I feel as if my whole being was floating with it taking me wherever it goes. It's so hypnotic and I get lost in its undulating movements. Its never ending tide arises then passes away like time--it waits for no man. However, these are only my guesses of why I'm so attracted to water. Maybe if I could find the real meaning behind it or the real cause of my fascination with water...then maybe I'd be able to rediscover myself. Water, whether in science or religion is considered as the origin of life. Scientists believe that life begins with water. We live in water for the first nine months of our lives. Deep inside our mother's body we are conceived in the watery fluid of the fallopian tube. Similarly, in many religions and dogmas, water symbolizes the original fountain of life, which precedes all form and all creation. Many myths and legends are based on a concept of there being a primeval ocean or watery abyss, which was the source of all life. I have dedicated the last several weeks to looking at the many interpretations of water. At first I asked myself what I thought was the meaning of water. Then I proceed to ask my parents, family, and friends, all of who had very different interpretations. I went a step further on my research and sought out what scholars had to say on the subject. Through these investigations on the interpretations of water, I hope to eventually arrive at an answer to my initial question: What is the purpose of life? LIFE AND DEATH We take water for granted. It's here, there, everywhere; it nourishes us; it feeds us. W/o water plants and animals couldn't survive including ourselves. Yet...what do we do? We waste water...lavishly. We leave the water running: we spend hours and hours bathing; we waste as much as 30 gallons / day washing the dishes by leaving the tap running. One of the major water pollutants are NOT heavy industries, factories, or mills...it is US! We contaminate water with fertilizer (for our lawns), animal/human waste, and toxic chemicals (metals, pesticides, formaldehyde, household chemicals, gasoline, motor oil, battery acid, roadway salt and so on). All this eventually goes down the sewage system and flushed into the bay. If one day the plumbing fails (gets stuffed)and water cease to run from our taps/showers/faucets...we blame not ourselves but at the Water Co. We live in complete misery w/o being able to take showers or flush our toilets or drink from our taps or cook. Then, and only then...do we finally realize how much our lives depend on water. Similarly, we take life for granted too. Our waking days are spent with regrets of what we couldn't do, thoughts of our failures, hatred towards our enemies, lust and greed and desires for objects or persons. Though this might not be true for everyone...but do you not get caught up in work? Do you end your day w/ thoughts of what u should or shouldn't have done...regrets? or plans for tomorrow? But, rarely do we get up in the morning being grateful to live yet another day...or be thankful that today isn't the end of the world; thankful for those people we care about (parents, family, friends). If one day...we find out that we have just one more day to live, what are your thoughts then? What would you do? ONLY then will you be thankful for everything that has come your way. I am thankful for everything that's happened and wouldn't ever change a thing. They are lifelong experiences that I have learnt and tools for improvement in the future. I have my grandfather and a great friend of mine to thank for all these thoughts of wisdom. You see, my grandpa passed away last year and now my friend is suffering from Leukemia. It's hard to watch someone you care about battle against death and due to certain limitations such as distance (& oth. factors), there's nothing that I could do to help except through prayers and good wishes. So friends, do me a favor...go up to your mom/dad/spouse/friends/loved ones and tell them how much u love them...tell them how much u care. With those little acts of compassion, u can make a big difference in their lives. Also, while walking to school or driving to work...or wherever u may be going...stop for a minute and smell the roses. Stop for a minute and notice what's around you...look at the trees and leaves; the birds and the bees...be in the moment...enjoy the moment...and live it like there's no tomorrow. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For other writings (nonbuddhist related) http://artupayam.blogs.friendster.com/ www.geocities.com/vvhite_illusion/poetry.html []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." 43036 From: mnease Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Appliedthinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(e) Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Appliedthinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(e) > N: I looked at the Thai Co and B.B.'s notes. This passage refers to the > Buddha when he was a Bodhisatta and commenced the six years of intense > striving before his enlightenment. Sense pleasures would obstruct his goal, > they do not lead to nibbana. Sure, likewise malevolence and harming. I also find it interesting that he was still subject to such thoughts at this point in his life, presumably because the path had not yet arisen sufficiently to eradicate the latent defilements even after all those lifetimes of developing the paramis, bojjhangas etc.. > The sutta passage does not state that they cannot be objects of awareness. No, I didn't think so-- > In fact the Bodhisatta must have been aware of them, how otherwise would he > realize their presence? Of course--this awareness would have been after the fact though, I think--in reviewing. Or do you think these were cases of cittas with awareness taking immediately fallen-away vitakkas as objects? > He saw the disadvantage and danger of them. Clearly-- > The Co is long. I just see that the Bodhisatta had samaadhi and also taru.na > vipassanaa, tender insight. These are the first three stages. He alternated > samatha and vipassana. Thanks again, Nina. mike p.s. Do you know the Paa.li for 'intuitive wisdom' in this context? Is it vipassanaa? 43037 From: Evan Stamatopoulos Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 2:28pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Bluejean Buddha It's interesting that you say you get together to "pray". I have heard this term used before in Buddhist circles but am not sure how it relates to Buddhism. Could you explain how you pray and to what you pray and what purpose praying servers? Thanks, Evan -----Original Message----- From: Illusion [mailto:artupayam@h...] Sent: Monday, 7 March 2005 8:06 AM To: Win-Win Maung Aung; dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com; journeytonibbana@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Bluejean Buddha ... I am also a member of a few Internet clubs, one of which is called "DhammaCakraTra_USA" in Yahoo. This group is dedicated towards Indonesian Buddhists of which currently consists of 97 Indonesians living in the US and of those 26 are Houstonians. Occasionally, we have gatherings when those 26 members including myself pray together and listen to tape lectures. This gives Indonesian Buddhists within the Greater Houston area a chance to expand their Buddhist understanding and hold Dhamma discussions in our own Indonesian language. 43038 From: robmoult Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 7:57pm Subject: Re: Bluejean Buddha Hi Maya, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Illusion" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > I have written a few essays that will be published on Dec. 2005 in a book titled Bluejean Buddha Vol. 2: Voices of Young Buddhists. May you all benefit from my writing, enjoy! ===== I enjoyed your essays. We have some things in common. Before moving to Jakarta 17 years ago, I practiced Zen / Ch'an. In Jakarta, I was introduced to Theravada. I was married in a Vihara in Jakarta (Thai tradition) and we return to that Vihara each time we visit Jakarta (we live in Kuala Lumpur). My wife is Indonesian and we still speak Indonesian at home from time to time. I believe that Nina also lived in Jakarta for a while. Have you been to Brobrodur? It is breathtaking! Metta, Rob M :-) 43039 From: Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 8:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Howard: "I have no basis for knowing the existence of unobserved rupas." Hi Howard and Jon, I have been contemplating this from the point of view of how to discriminate between sense consciousness and sense object for the purpose of distinguishing between nama and rupa _in experience_ for the "Purification of View" as outlined in the Visuddhimagga. The idea is not to only know the names of the various namas and rupas but to identify them in experience, thereby dividing the amorphous glob of experience into many parts, thereby facilitating a glimpse of anatta. It is meant to be an exercise for a relative beginner, say college level, not something reserved for only Buddhas and arahants. The problem is how to consciously distinguish between consciousness and non-consciousness. I think there is no way around reasoning. You can't be conscious of what you are not conscious of. It seems clear to me that abhidhamma's _idea_ is that that color "over there" is rupa and the experience of the color and the space between eye and color is eye consciousness for the color and mind consciousness for the space. But the difference between color and experience of color isn't really analyzed except to say experience of color has color as object. [I have a thought on object here, but maybe we should keep it simple.] Here is an interesting quote from Visuddhimagga: Vism.XV,41. Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, and the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-object element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face. Or else, the eye-element should be regarded as the lower fire-stick, the visible-data element as the upper fire-stick, and the eye-consciousness element as the fire. So too in the case of the ear and so on. Larry: I think one could take either a realist or phenominalist view of this and it probably doesn't make any difference as long as you come up with "many parts" and have confidence in the view. Larry 43040 From: Ian Allan Andrews Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 6:53pm Subject: Re: Hello One and All...Thank you Hello Jonothan and Nina, Thank you both for your warm welcome. I am not certain how much I'll be able to contribute to the discussions on abhidhamma due to my schedule and the time it would take me to translate the terminology (it's been a couple of years since I went over this material and terminology) and ponder what is being pointed out, but I'll endeavor to chime in whenever I see an opportunity to point out something I have noticed that hasn't been pointed out. There are many intelligent people who post to this forum, and most of them seem to have taken the time to figure out what they are talking about. I will, on occasion, avail myself of Jonothan's offer to "put up [my] own thoughts/questions for discussion" as I am interested in the practical aspect of the application of abhidhamma to one's everyday life. Noticing the minutiae of consciousness and catching oneself before making a mistake can be a daunting task. And the abhidhamma is here to help and assist us with this task. This is what I see as the most important aspect of studying the abhidhamma -- its practical application. Although just being able to understand what is being discussed (being able to identify and acknowledge its reality within our consciousness) can be equally as daunting, as thoughts are as fleeting as the breath. Once again, thank you for your gracious welcome. In Metta, Ian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Ian > > Welcome to DSG from me. This is a very impressive 'spiritual CV' ;-)). Thanks for telling us about your background and different experiences, how you gradually became more focussed on Buddhism and finally Theravada, culminating in your discovery of CMA, Vis and Nina's ADL. I think many of us have followed a similar path but in a slightly more compressed time frame ;-)). I'm sure we will all benefit from your wide experience. Please feel free to chip in on any thread or put up your own thoughts/questions for discussion. > > Jon > > ianand520 wrote: > > >I came upon your humble group while surfing for information on the > >Abhidhamma. 43041 From: Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Larry: "You can't be conscious of what you are not conscious of." Hi Howard and Jon, I had a better version of this email but it disappeared. What I meant by the above is that in distinguishing between nama and rupa in experience the problem is that rupa, as such, is not an experience. So one must experience the experience of a non-experience _and_ experience a non-experience separate from experience. Obviously the second part of this is impossible without concept and reason. Also I wanted to say that even the most penetrating experience needs reason to contextualize and make sense of it. Phenominalism can't do without reason any more than realism can, and in some ways phenominalism is more reasonable. But experience has to be the basis of reason. Larry 43042 From: Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 8:40pm Subject: Vism.XIV,143 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 143. (xiii)-(xv) By its mean they are not greedy (na lubbanti), or it itself is not greedy, or it is just the mere not being greedy (alubbhana), thus it is 'non-greed (alobha). The same method applies to 'non-hate' (adosa) and 'non-delusion (amoha) [na dussanti, adussana = adosa, and na muyhanti, amuyhana = amoha (see par. 171,161)]. Of these, 'non-greed' has the characteristic of the mind's lack of desire for an object, or it has the characteristic of non-adherence, like a water drop on a lotus leaf. Its function is to not lay hold, like a liberated bhikkhu. It is manifested as a state of not treating as a shelter, like that of a man who has fallen into filth. 'Non-hate' has the characteristic of lack of savagery, or the characteristic of non-opposing, like a gentle friend. Its function is to remove annoyance, or its function is to remove fever, as sandalwood does. It is manifested as agreeableness, like the full moon. 'Non-delusion' has the characteristic of penetrating [things] according to their individual essences, or it has the characteristic of sure penetration, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilful archer. Its function is to illuminate the objective field, like a lamp. It is manifested as non-bewilderment, like a guide in a forest. The three should be regarded as the roots of all that is profitable. 43043 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 8:47pm Subject: reminder time Hi All, Just a couple of reminders. Trimming When replying to another post, please remember to trim any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you may assume that other members will have seen it. Salutation etc To avoid confusion, please use a salutation at the beginning of each post, and sign off at the end (preferably with a real name). We appreciate your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS The full guidelines can be found in the files section. Comments or questions off-list only. Thanks 43044 From: Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) In a message dated 3/6/2005 8:44:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Also I wanted to say that even the most penetrating experience needs reason to contextualize and make sense of it. Phenominalism can't do without reason any more than realism can, and in some ways phenominalism is more reasonable. But experience has to be the basis of reason. Larry Hi Larry I agree. I think the Buddha might have used an example of an infant ... that would be able to be aware of its experiences but completely ignorant as to what they meant. "Investigation" is one of the seven enlightenment factors. Can't investigate without reasoning. TG 43045 From: mnease Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Larry, Hope you'll pardon my butting in: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) > So one must > experience the experience of a non-experience _and_ experience a > non-experience separate from experience. Obviously the second part of > this is impossible without concept and reason. Without 'one' to experience I don't see this as a problem--if I understand it correctly, naama can experience ruupa (as well as naama). I think only the 'experiencer' needs to be subtracted from the equation for this to make sense. I'm all for concept and reason in their place but their place is not in satipa.t.thaana I think. Concept and reason can occur (usually do I think) afterward and can be very valuable if consistent with dhamma. > Also I wanted to say that even the most penetrating experience needs > reason to contextualize and make sense of it. Yes, to make conceptual sense--a good thing I think--but not to make vipassanaa. Unless I'm mistaken, insight just penetrates a reality. The concept and context come afterwards. > Phenominalism can't do > without reason any more than realism can, and in some ways phenominalism > is more reasonable. But experience has to be the basis of reason. Of profitable reason certainly. In my case, nearly all reason is based on thoughts, imaginings, counterfeits of experience. Just me of course... mike 43046 From: Andrew Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Re: Water, Life, and Death Dear Maya I can see that you enjoy writing and you do it so well. Keep up the good work! In this piece, you were wondering about your fascination with water. Have you solved it yet? If not, may I take a guess myself? I shall snip out bits of your story but only for the sake of convenience ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Illusion" wrote: > Recently I have undergone a series of depression for reasons that are beyond me. ... I found that water was my only means of comfort-- ... Every time I look at a body of water, I feel at ease...I feel as if my whole being was floating with it taking me wherever it goes. ... Maybe if I could find the real meaning behind it or the real cause of my fascination with water...then maybe I'd be able to rediscover myself. > > "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." Well, Maya, here's my theory ... I think the source of your fascination with water may be found in the little quotation at the very end of your email: the Buddha's teaching of anatta (no-self)! When we truly realise that there is no permanent, lasting and directing self, we see the world very differently. It's as if "we" are just aggregates bobbing along in flowing water, having no control over where we flow to. You mentioned that you had been depressed. That, of course, happens to all of us in this dukkha-ridden human existence. The Dhamma points out that living in a sphere where we experience both happy and unhappy can be much more advantageous than living in an ever happy god realm. I used to think that this was just human Buddhist conceit ... when you study anthropology, you come to learn that every culture holds itself out as unique or special or god-chosen or whatever. So I used to think that the Buddhist idea of the human realm being a fortunate rebirth location was just Buddhists wanting to feel special, too. On the contrary, my experience is that the very few "glimpses" I have had of anatta were during times of stress and upset (which the gods don't suffer). It was then that I was able to see more clearly that "I" actually had no control over my mind, that "I" was a swirling mass of waves and currents. Much as I struggled, telling myself "Let my mind stop these thoughts and become happy", it didn't happen. Another way of saying this is that the cetasika cetana is really just a slave to the present conditions! The Abhidhamma books tell us that cetana is like a head carpenter who gets the other carpenters (cetasikas) to do their work and that's true. But, in the end, cetana NOW is a slave to present conditions. For this reason, I think it is a mistake to believe that we *can* direct the waves and currents in the present moment and explain this supposed ability by saying "that's my cetana at work!" Wrong. That's conditions at work. Many times when we are happy and calm, it *looks like* "we" are practising mindfulness or metta or whatever. That we are directing the flow of our consciousness. But that's only an illusion. A water illusion? Our hope is to understand, not to direct. Have I solved your mystery, Maya? Maybe I'm way off the mark. But it was fun trying. Keep writing!! Best wishes Andrew T 43047 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2005 10:38pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 139 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(i) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)contd] *** Vicåra Vicåra can be translated as sustained thinking, discursive thinking or sustained application. We read in the Visuddhimagga (IV, 88) the following definition: * "… Sustained thinking (vicaraùa) is sustained thought (vicåra); continued sustenance (anusañcaraùa), is what is meant. It has the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its function is to keep conascent (mental) states (occupied) with that. It is manifested as keeping consciousness anchored (on that object)." * The Atthasåliní (Book One, Part IV, Chapter I, 114) defines vicåra in a similar way. Vicåra is not the same reality as vitakka. Vitakka directs the citta to the object and vicåra keeps the citta occupied with the object, “anchored” on it. However, we should remember that both vitakka and vicåra perform their functions only for the duration of one citta and then fall away immediately, together with the citta. ***** [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 43048 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: Thanks for your contributions, see you later. Hi Hugo, I hope you don't mind, but I'm replying to part of your kind note(sent off-list)on DSG and sending you a copy in case you're not following. --- Hugo wrote: > BTW, you and I agree more than what it seems at first glance, but > let's talk about that later. ... S: Please put that at the top of your 'Next Life on DSG agenda' - it's always good to hear about the agreements;-). .... > A friend from DSG pointed me to this book: > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/cittanupassana5.pdf > > I am half way through it, and it is AMAZINGLY similar (actually > identical) to what I have been doing, the feelings I have felt, the > experiences I have had, and the conclusions and "tips" I have obtained > from my own experience. > > It seems as if I had read it before doing what I do, but I didn't, > that's why I am so shocked (but with joy). ... S: One reason I'm replying on list is because others may like to take a look as you recommend it so highly. (I might even persuade some kind person like Connie to pick me a couple of extracts in due course, or perhaps you will add them in your posts later). ... > It is easy and quick to read, and you will love it as it contains > "your favourite mantra" and many of "your phrases", but also it > contains a better description of "my approach" and "my phrases", so I > think it would be good if you read it as to understand what I am > trying to explain and why I think you and I agree more than disagree. > I think just reading the first part is enough, I haven't read the > second part yet. ... S: Sounds good if it's full of 'my favourite mantra';-). I'll wait for an extract or two or maybe take a look sometime, adding it to the list. Thx also for your last post to me on the list #42942. I must have learnt a little about psychic connections from James, because I just knew you weren't wanting a reply;-). Of course, getting in the last word on DSG is never easy!! My main objection to what you wrote for your reflection during this period was the following: I had repeated something along the lines of my favourite mantra and you then replied: "I know, but we can't forget in what situation we are now and that we need to work from where we are, so we need to take provisions to make the current situation good enough so we can work on the final result." It's like you are saying, yes, I agree with the teachings BUT, self still needs to do its job and there are still all these situations no matter how much we talk about dhammas. Also, it may seem that we've 'perceived namas coming and going', but isn't this just thinking about them coming and going? Btw, there have been several posts written to you directly or indirectly since you started your sabbatical. I have them noted, so if you haven't been following and you want me to give you the numbers off-list, let me know. One was Jon's yest on Vism and one was Ken H's 'Popeye' post with a few other one-liners in between;-). I know your break is not from dhamma, only from discussion, so hope it's a rewarding spell. Metta, Sarah ======= 43049 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eight Conditions for the Arising of Panna/ Vera Sutta Hi Tep, (Jon & Nina), Thank you (and also Jon & Nina) for your helpful messages. I still don¡¦t have the sutta (Vera sutta) in front of me and couldn¡¦t follow the reference ANX,92 to find it in the PTS transl of AN. (pls give me a link anytime if you can do so easily as the titles are often different in translations). --- Tep Sastri wrote: > There are some significant variations in what you call the "four > factors of stream-entry". The variations are seen in SN LV.30, SN > LV.31, SN LV.32, SN LV.33 and AN X.92. ¡K S: As Nina said, I think they are complimentary and as Jon said, they may all be referred to as ¡¥sotapattiyanga¡¦ but have slightly different connotations. I liked BB¡¦s note which suggested the set you quoted refer to the factors possessed by the stream-enterer and the factors I gave before refer to the ¡¥qualities that must be actualised¡¦ for attainment of stream-entry. ¡K > S: I don't quite see how you read it as specifically > showing `what lay-persons should do in order to become Sotapanna'. > Surely it is describing the benefits or fruit of being a sotapanna > such as the stilling of fear (on account of having no self- > view),four factors of stream entry starting with association with > the wise (usually sappurisa sa.msevo)- associating or resorting to > the right views of the ariyans, hearing true dhamma > (saddhammasavana.m), wise attention (yoniso manasikaaro), practice > in accordance with Dhamma (dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti). ¡K S: Thank you for the correction. I should have given the standard definition of the factors which the sotapanna is endowed with, starting with ¡¥unwavering faith in the Awakened One¡¦ which you now show me are given in the sutta. I missed the target a littleƒº. ¡K > T: The four factors of stream-entry(Sotapatti) as stated in AN X.92 > (Vera Sutta) are more precise with respect to `what lay-persons > should do in order to become Sotapanna'. Please review the following > excerpt and kindly respond at your convenient time. Thank you much. ¡K S: Thank you. In your comment here, surely for consistency, it should be with respect to ¡¥the factors of the sotapanna/stream entry which the lay-person is endowed with¡¦ rather than what they ¡¥should do¡¦ or what ¡¥must be actualized¡¦ to use BB¡¦s terminology? Grateful for your reflections on this and other suttas. Metta, Sarah > "And which are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is > endowed? > > "There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed > with unwavering faith in the Awakened One <¡K> > > "He is endowed with unwavering faith in the Dhamma: <¡K> > > "He is endowed with unwavering faith in the Sangha: <¡K> > > "He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: > untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by > the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. > > "These are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is > endowed. > > [Excerpt from AN X.92, Vera Sutta]. 43050 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo- deva vehicles, rotating razors, busy demons & ariyan maths Hi Kel (& Htoo), Thanks for your help. --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > >S: 1. #41413 You were talking about dying and the `racing > > competition of kamma'. You told a story about a rich man dying > > who > > kept asking the monks to stop chanting. `Actually the father is > > seeing `a deva vehicle driven by devas…'' the father was > > reborn in > > the deva realm. It's an interesting story. Does it come from a > > sutta > > or where? I'd be interested to read it. > > > > If it's a modern story, how would anyone know?? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Htoo: I do not think it is a modern story or created story. The > > problem is that I do not remember the source. What I remember is I > > also saw a pictorial description that deva-vehicle was there. <...> ... Kel: If I'm not mistaken it's the story of Anathapindika. I think > it's included in the Greatest Disciples book under "Death of > Anathapinkdika". ... S: Kel, I think you may be right - at least I think it may be *based* on Anathapindika's death, rebirth in Tusita and reappearance in Jetavana. I had wondered about Anathapindika, but it's a very 'free' interpretation indeed;-). Maybe, as Htoo said, he recalled the pictorial description. One reason I ask him is just out of interest. Another is because many of his posts contain so much good material and are often saved in U.P., but I like to check that at least most the facts are correct first;-). ... >I also heard a similar story in a lecture but that > person became an anagami so wasnt reborn into Deva realm. Or the > one where Buddha chided Ashin Sariputtra for not giving appropriate > sermon for the person to achieve anagami-magga right before death > though they had the potential. I think a few of the chief lay > disciples death bed stories were given somewhere. ... Perhaps some have been 'adapted' for children's books too. If you recall others or sources, let us know. Metta, Sarah ======= 43051 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Hi Kel (Rob K & All), --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > "Ledi Sayadaw's ....Paramattha-dipani created a sensation in the > > field of Abhidhamma studies because he pointed out 325 places in > > Kel: The version I read is he overheard Sri Lanka monks saying > Burmese Abhidhamma studies were based on commentaries with some > errors. So he took it upon himself and corrected those since he was > uniquely qualified due to intimitate knowledge of the whole > tipitaka. So I guess it's in the eye of the beholder really. … S: I think you're right (about the 'eye of the beholder'. I used to occasionally visit Dr U Rewatta Dhamma in Birmingham and London in the 70s and I had a lot of admiration for the difficult task he set out to accomplish, being based in one of England’s most run-down slum areas at the time. We talked a little about Abhidhamma, but not about controversies in Burma. The following, however, are extracts from an article of his on the Abhidhamma: http://www.nibbana.com/abidama1.htm He starts his article with this introduction which I know you’ll agree with, but which I post for others: ***** "At the heart of the Abhidhamma philosophy is the Abhidhamma Pitaka, one of the divisions of the Pali Canon recognized by Theravada Buddhism as the authoritative recension of the Buddha's teachings. This canon was compiled at the three great Buddhist councils held in India in the early centuries following the Buddha's demise: the first, at Rajagaha, convened three months after the Buddha's Parinibbana by five hundred senior monks under the leadership of the Elder Mahakassapa; the second, at Vesali, a hundred years later, and the third, at Pataliputta, two hundred years later. The canon that emerged from these councils, preserved in the Middle Indian language now called Pali, is known as the Tipitaka, the three "baskets" or collections of the teachings" ***** S:Later when he introduces the commentaries, some don't agree when he writes: ***** ”When the authorship of the Commentaries is ascribed to Acariya Buddhaghosa, it should not be supposed that they are in any way original compositions, or even original attempts to interpret traditional material. They are, rather, carefully edited versions of the vast body of accumulated exegetical material that Buddhaghosa found at the Mahavihara in Anuradhapura. This material must have preceded the great commentator by centuries, representing the collective efforts of generations of erudite Buddhist teachers to elucidate the meaning of the canonical Abhidhamma.” ***** S:He adds more details on the commentaries and when it comes to the commentary on the Abhidammattha Sangaha, he writes: ***** “2. Abhidhammathavibhavini-Tika, or in brief, the Vibhavini, written by Acariya Sumangalasami, pupil of the eminent Sri Lankan elder Sariputta Mahasami, also in the twelfth century. This tika quickly superceded the Old Commentary and is generally considered the most profound and reliable exegetical work on the Sangaha. In Burma this work is known as tika-gyaw, "the Famous Commentary." The author is greatly respected for his erudition and mastery of the Abhidhamma. He relies heavily on older authorities such as the Abhidhamma-Anutika and the Visuddhimagga-Mahatika (also known as the Paramatthamanjusa). Although Ledi Sayadaw (see below) criticized the Vibhavini extensively in his own commentary on the Sangaha, its popularity has not diminished but indeed has even increased, and several Burmese scholars have risen to defend it against Ledi Sayadaw's criticisms.” <…> "4. Paramatthadipani-Tika, "The Elucidation of the Ultimate Meaning," by Ledi Sayadaw. Ledi Sayadaw of Burma (1846-1923) was one of the greatest scholar-monks and meditation masters of the Theravada tradition in recent times. He was the author of over seventy manuals on different aspects of Theravada Buddhism, including philosophy, ethics, meditation practice, and Pali grammar. His tika created a sensation in the field of Abhidhamma studies because he pointed out 325 places in the esteemed Vibhavini-tika where he alleged that errors and misinterpretations had occurred, though his criticisms also set off a reaction in defense of the older work." ***** S: So it seems there has been a significant amount of controversy by Burmese scholars and bhikkhus too. In case there is any question about whether Dr U Rewatta Dhamma would know, I just made use of that psychic or psycho tool bar favourite;-) to find this: “A lifetime of Buddhism -- The Ven. Dr. Rewata Dhamma was born in Myanmar in 1929. He has studied Theravada Buddhism since childhood. He obtained the highest degree in Pali examination at the age of 23 and was then awarded the title of Sasanadhaja siripavara dhammacartiya by the then president of Myanmar in 1953.” **** S:Anyway, Kel, I appreciate the approach you referred to of reading. Considering and testing out according to your experience and appreciate the high regard you have for Ledi Sayadaw's writings. Indeed they contain a wealth of detail and there's no doubt about his familiarity with all the texts in Pali. I may respond later to the extract of Ledi Sayadaw’s that you kindly posted for me. It’s good to discuss these points further – I don’t think they are minor academic points at all, but crucial aspects of how we see the practice. Metta, Sarah ======== 43052 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 4:00am Subject: DSG get-together in Bangkok -end of this month Hi Azita & All, I'm also replying to your off-list note here in case anyone else can join us, now everything is confirmed. .... --- azita gill wrote: > Hello Sarah, > Is it seeing or is it thinking? just a little > reminder. ... A good start - attachment was what was most apparent when I read the reminder which just goes to show how prevalent it is as soon as seeing sees and sanna marks the visible object. ... You then asked about the details for the discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin at the end of this month. I just spoke to her and they are confirmed for Tues 29, Wed 30 and I think Thurs 31st. I mentioned some friends may be visiting for part of the time only. so for convenience we'll be meeting at the Foundation, starting 9am on Tuesday 29th. If anyone else here is able to join any part or all of these discussions, I'm sure it will be very worthwhile and agreement with anyone, including A.Sujin, or even with Buddhaghosa is never a requirement! Just like on DSG, some of the best discussions are when people have different 'takes' or understandings of the teachings. If anyone would like more details of the venue, times etc, please contact me or Sukin off-list. I know Sukin will be happy to give anyone his mobile no and any help on driections in Bkk etc too. Azita, thanks for passing the info on to Vince and Nancy. We'll see you, Chris, Bkk-ers and them on Tues 29th at the foundation. Ken O, just turn up if you prefer not to be tied. You may even get another big-brotherly pep talk from Vince if you're lucky:-). Metta, Sarah ... > V&N will be in Bkk all day March 29 and half 30. > Do you have any start times for discussion group, and > are they going to be at the Foundation? > This info will be forwarded to them as I don't arrive > in Bkk until late, late Mon 28. > 43053 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 0:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Hi Charles, You wrote: ------------- > You are going to have to drop the pali and sanscrit when writing to me, I don't understand it and you run the risk of saying something that I have a totally different understanding of. Plus real comprehension is shown when you can explain things in words that the receiver can understand. > -------------- Sure, no problem. I continued to use Pali terms because you had said on a couple of occasions that you understood my point of view (and were trying to change it). It seems to me now, that you have been taught a very different Abhidhamma from the one I am being taught - the Theravada one. And so we have probably been talking at cross- purposes for most of our conversation. I will skip over some parts of your post to get to the following, very important part: ---------------------- C: > What has happen is people get part of a picture or they forget the other parts and also a mistranslation has taken place (the Idea of no-essence/soul/atman becoming no-self) also (the point of no- thing you can own/control completely becoming no-self). > ----------------------- I wonder if you are making a point I have heard others make from time to time: Even on DSG, people have said, "Sure, there is no eternal self or atman, but there is a temporary self!" Worse still, some Buddhists believe Nibbana is a kind of heaven where we will live eternally. A major source of this belief is the web site, Access To Insight. There, Bhikkhu Thanissaro teaches that the doctrine of anatta is not actually true. He says it is only a device to remove stress from our thinking and thereby smooth the progress of meditation. This part of the venerable's teaching is entirely, and dangerously, misguided. I wonder if this explains why you disagree when I say desire is the cause of our problems and it cannot lead the way out. You seem to be saying that we somehow have control over reality. This is at odds with the Dhamma that says the world is composed purely of conditioned namas and rupas (arising and falling away at extraordinary speed). Apart from those conditioned dhammas (and with the exception of Nibbana) there is nothing - no people, no controller, no sun, no chariots, nothing. The Abhidhamma that I have been learning lists, classifies and explains all of the various dhammas. It is entirely consistent with the other parts of the Dhamma and is found, not only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but also in the suttas and (I think) in the Vinaya. In order that we can both know what we are talking about, would you please expand upon your comments above, and briefly describe your understanding of anatta. Thanks, Ken H 43054 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Appliedthinking/Vitakka, Jotipala. Hi Mike, op 06-03-2005 22:49 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: >> N: I looked at the Thai Co and B.B.'s notes. This passage refers to the >> Buddha when he was a Bodhisatta and commenced the six years of intense >> striving before his enlightenment. Sense pleasures would obstruct his > goal, >> they do not lead to nibbana. > > Sure, likewise malevolence and harming. I also find it interesting that he > was still subject to such thoughts at this point in his life, presumably > because the path had not yet arisen sufficiently to eradicate the latent > defilements even after all those lifetimes of developing the paramis, > bojjhangas etc.. N: He had to develop them to an extraordinary level, so that he could become a Sammaasambudha. It is also a lesson for us that the development is ciira kaala bhaavanaa. Ven. Dhammanando translated the beautiful passage for us about Jotipala who attained the lokiya vipassana ñaa.na which is sankhaarupekkhaa ñaa.na, before the process of enlightenment, thus before anuloma ñaa.na. In the Questions of King Milinda we find good passages on the Bodhisatta (Dilemmas V, 223). As Jotipala, he was born into a family of wrong view. He had accumulated wisdom, but now he had little confidence. As a blazing fire comes into contact with water, it becomes cool and black. Like black coal. This teaches us that what we accumulated is never lost, but we need the right conditions to develop the perfections further. Jotipala met the Buddha Kassapa, he had the right conditions to go on developing the perfections. So, there are ups and downs from life to life and also during one life, just now. I heard Kh. Sujin say on tape: awareness can be accumulated, it will take in a few lifetimes. But even one moment is precious since it is never lost. M: >> In fact the Bodhisatta must have been aware of them, how otherwise would > he >> realize their presence? > > Of course--this awareness would have been after the fact though, I think--in > reviewing. Or do you think these were cases of cittas with awareness taking > immediately fallen-away vitakkas as objects? N:I think both cases. Otherwise he could not acquire tender insight. M: p.s. Do you know the Paa.li for 'intuitive wisdom' in this context? Is it > vipassanaa? N: My Thai text has paññaa. The Co explains that through the wrong vitakka lokiya pañña, the samaapattis (jhaana attainments) and abhiññas decline. Nina. 43055 From: Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Larry (and Jon) - A brief reply below in context: In a message dated 3/6/2005 11:11:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > >Howard: "I have no basis for knowing the existence of unobserved rupas." > >Hi Howard and Jon, > >I have been contemplating this from the point of view of how to >discriminate between sense consciousness and sense object for the >purpose of distinguishing between nama and rupa _in experience_ for the >"Purification of View" as outlined in the Visuddhimagga. The idea is not >to only know the names of the various namas and rupas but to identify >them in experience, thereby dividing the amorphous glob of experience >into many parts, thereby facilitating a glimpse of anatta. It is meant >to be an exercise for a relative beginner, say college level, not >something reserved for only Buddhas and arahants. --------------------------- To me, the criterion of "an operation of knowing in some fashion", plus, of course, nibbana, is quite satisfactory for "nama". For "rupa" I understand any experiential content that is not nama. I have no problem distingishing mental from physical for the most part. Fear, for example, is an operation directed towards an object. --------------------------- > >The problem is how to consciously distinguish between consciousness and >non-consciousness. -------------------------- To me, consciousness is the mere presence of content. Somehow I know when that has been in play - there has been content. There is no more to consciousness than the mere presence of an experience as I see it. -------------------------- I think there is no way around reasoning. You can't >be conscious of what you are not conscious of. > >It seems clear to me that abhidhamma's _idea_ is that that color "over >there" is rupa and the experience of the color and the space between eye >and color is eye consciousness for the color and mind consciousness for >the space. But the difference between color and experience of color >isn't really analyzed except to say experience of color has color as >object. [I have a thought on object here, but maybe we should keep it >simple.] > >Here is an interesting quote from Visuddhimagga: > >Vism.XV,41. Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded as >the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, and >the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye element >should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-object >element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of >the face. Or else, the eye-element should be regarded as the lower >fire-stick, the visible-data element as the upper fire-stick, and the >eye-consciousness element as the fire. So too in the case of the ear and >so on. ---------------------------- Howard: None of these does it for me. The first is the worst, though. -------------------------- > >Larry: I think one could take either a realist or phenominalist view of >this and it probably doesn't make any difference as long as you come up >with "many parts" and have confidence in the view. ------------------------- I think both views are reasonable and each has its appeal. ------------------------- > >Larry ========================= With metta, Howard 43056 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Great Elements as Foundation /feelings change Hi Charles, op 06-03-2005 21:38 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@P... > N: There are different conditions at work for different realities, that makes > it complex. > C: Complex/compounded N: I am thinking of the twentyfour classes of conditions as taught in the Patthana, not merely of compounded. A difficult term to me. What is compounded: different conditions work together so that a dhamma arises. > C: If by sannaa you mean perception (becoming aware of something), that is the > key player. In the USA there is a saying about some people -- They see through > rose colored glasses. In this case, altering perception to effect feelings. N: The transl of perception could be misleading. I think of remembrance arising with each citta. It marks or remembers the object. Because of it we remember the past, also past feelings, or what we liked or disliked in the past. Ch: If > I am really happy today, every thing worked out extremely well, I don't mind > getting a flat tire on my way home from work. But if the opposite happens, the > flat tire might take me over the edge. N: A good daily life example. See, rupas of the body also are a condition. Nutrition (sufficient food to eat), the right climate (not tired out from tropical heat) also play their part. Pleasant or unpleasant experiences you remember influence your resillience. Our defilements are deeply accumulated and thus we have like when the situation is pleasant, dislike when it is unpleasant. When we feel happy, it is good to know whether this is lobha or not. When there is no kusala such as metta, karuna, daana, siila, bhaavanaa, our happiness is just lobha, or pleasant feeling accompanying lobha. The more we see conditions for our moods, the less will we be taken in by them. We learn not to be overcome by objects, but by understanding there are conditions to, in a way, 'overcome' objects, no matter how unpleasant they are. In the suttas this is said of the arahat. > N: ... Also contact changes all the time. > C: this changing is mainly due to cycle of concocting (thinking, racing > thoughts, inner gossip) and coming back to the object. N: There is a different citta each moment and thus the accompanying contact, a cetasika, is also different. It has the function of contacting the object so that citta experiences it. This happens all the time, also when there is no thinking, no racing thoughts, but seeing, hearing, or life-continuum, bhavangacitta. Nina. 43057 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Mike and Larry, A good topic. op 07-03-2005 06:04 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: > Without 'one' to experience I don't see this as a problem--if I understand > it correctly, naama can experience ruupa (as well as naama). I think only > the 'experiencer' needs to be subtracted from the equation for this to make > sense. I'm all for concept and reason in their place but their place is not > in satipa.t.thaana I think. Concept and reason can occur (usually do I > think) afterward and can be very valuable if consistent with dhamma. N: I think also before, we need intellectual understanding first. We have to hear again and again and again that nama and rupa are objects of sati and paññaa, all objects appearing through the six doors, one at a time, also now. We have to know that sati cannot be directed to specific objects. That sati cannot be induced. The more one wants it the less chance for its arising. Nina. 43058 From: suryarao Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello everybody THanks a lot Nina for your guidance. Instead of posing question right now, I would prefer to read some and then put it ... Thanks, Sanjay --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sanjay, > welcome here. Of course, as far as I am concerned, it does not matter that > you are Hindu. > I appreciate your interest in Abhidhamma. <....> 43059 From: suryarao Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 1:47pm Subject: Re: Hello everybody Hi Sarah, Thanks a lot for such elaborate reply ! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Sanjay, > > --- suryarao wrote: > > > This is Sanjay. > > I stumbled upon this website through some adhidhamma website. I > > liked it so joined. > ... > S: Well, I'm glad you found us and welcome. It's good to know you may have > an interest in abhidhamma too. > ... > > Intro.. I'm Hindu practising vipassana for past 10 years. very > > irregularly though. I have read some books on vipassana. I immensely > > respect the technique. I follow nothing but vipassana so far. > > Presently in US. I pressume my being hindu wont be a problem on this > > group. > ... > S: No problem at all - we're a pretty diverse lot here - all kinds of > backgrounds in terms of religions and nationalities here. Thank you for > introducing yourself. > .... > > Would like to know, what is general discussion here ? Are moderators > > really well learned, ripen in dhamma ? do they advice ? > .... > S: We discuss anything of interest to those posting (like yourself) and > relevant to the homepage description. Vipassana - the meaning in the texts > and the technique you refer to are hot topics for a start;-). > > The moderators are not 'really well learned, ripen in dhamma'. They are > jsut ordinary folk who like to discuss these hot topics or any others with > friends here. Sometimes they advise, sometimes they are advised, sometimes > neither;-). > .... I take it as a modest gesture and looking forward learn more here. > > I really liked some of the files kept here, esp adhidhamma.pdf one. > > Immensely informative. Thanks. > > > > I hope to get ispiration to work diligently on the path of dhamma. > ... > S: Please post any extract you find particularly helpful. I'm not sure > exactly what you're referring to. > > With your keen interest in Abhidhamma, I'd also suggest: > > 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by Nina Van Gorkom, one of our active members: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > > (Also any other materials at this site). > > Also, in the files section, take a look at "Useful Posts', a selection by > the moderators from the archives. See if any topics are of special > interest such as `Abhidhamma-beginners' etc. (You may not be a beginner, I > don't know!!). Oh, try `Vipassana' too. Yes I'm still abhidhamm-beginner... > > Anyway, I'd be glad if you'd let us know if you have any questions or > topics you'd like to discuss further. This is the best way to learn. > > Thanks again for introducing yourself, > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta ... Sanjay 43060 From: Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Mike, I didn't do a very good job of articulating this problem. Let me try again. In order to distinguish between nama and rupa it is necessary to distinguish between the color rupa and sense consciousness. When we experience a color what is the color rupa and what is the sense consciousness? If the color is the color rupa how do we know that? I am taking the view that the color we experience is eye consciousness and this eye consciousness is a mirror image of the color rupa. Thus rupa is not directly known in the same way feeling is directly known. It can only be inferred. Suppose we are color blind. Eye consciousness experiences a color that is not there. A red rupa is experienced as a brown eye consciousness. If the color experience were a rupa then rupa would be an experience like feeling is an experience and eye consciousness would be something like attention or perhaps mere luminescence. I think it is possible that luminescence is a quality of consciousness, but this does not preclude color-as-consciousness from being luminescence. If you think rupa is inert matter then you are a realist and you need reason to understand rupa. If you think rupa is an experience in itself, like feeling, then you can "know" rupa directly, without reason, simply by being conscious of it (insofar as consciousness is knowing). Again, the two views are: 1) color experience is rupa, 2) color experience is eye consciousness. I believe the paragraph below from Visuddhimagga supports the "color experience is eye consciousness" view. Some could argue that sutta supports the "color experience is rupa" view. Vism.XV,41. Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, and the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-object element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face. Or else, the eye-element should be regarded as the lower fire-stick, the visible-data element as the upper fire-stick, and the eye-consciousness element as the fire. So too in the case of the ear and so on. Larry 43061 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 8:46pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 140 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(j) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)contd] *** Both the Visuddhimagga and the Atthasåliní use similes in order to explain the difference between vitakka and vicåra. Vitakka is gross and vicåra is more subtle. We read in the Visuddhimagga ( IV, 89): * "… Applied thought (vitakka) is the first compact of the mind in the sense that it is both gross and inceptive, like the striking of a bell. Sustained thought (vicåra) is the act of keeping the mind anchored, in the sense that it is subtle with the individual essence of continued pressure, like the ringing of the bell…" * Several more similes are used in order to explain the difference between vitakka and vicåra. Vitakka is like the bird’s spreading out its wings when about to soar into the air, and vicåra is quiet, like the bird’s planing with outspread wings. When we read this simile we may think that vitakka has to come first and that then vicåra follows. However, this simile is used in order to show that vitakka and vicåra have different characteristics. Another simile the Visuddhimagga and the Atthasåliní use is the following : vitakka is like the bee’s diving towards a lotus and vicåra is like the bee’s gyrating around the lotus after it has dived towards it. ***** [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 43062 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 8:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eight Conditions for the Arising of Panna/ Vera Sutta Dear Sarah, Jon and Nina - I really appreciate your thoughtful discussion on 'sotapattiyanga' that make it quite educational. Nina's point on the complementariness, and jon's emphasis on the difference between the "factors _of_ stream-entry" and the "factors _for_ stream-entry" are very good. Sarah, below are two links that should lead you to the suttas I mentioned earlier. The translation might not be as smooth as Bhikkhu Bodhi's, but it is very accurate (when compared to the Thai version). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#s Kindest regards to all, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, (Jon & Nina), > > Thank you (and also Jon & Nina) for your helpful messages. I still don ¡¦t > have the sutta (Vera sutta) in front of me and couldn¡¦t follow the > reference ANX,92 to find it in the PTS transl of AN. (pls give me a link > anytime if you can do so easily as the titles are often different in > translations). > 43063 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello One and All...Thank you Hi Ian, You really gave a great intro - many thanks indeed. Most informative. I also appreciated your pre-empting of my usual prompts. --- Ian Allan Andrews wrote: <....> > I will, on occasion, avail myself of Jonothan's offer to "put up [my] > own thoughts/questions for discussion" as I am interested in the > practical aspect of the application of abhidhamma to one's everyday > life. Noticing the minutiae of consciousness and catching oneself > before making a mistake can be a daunting task. And the abhidhamma is > here to help and assist us with this task. .... S: Please elaborate further, if you care to, of course. I am especially interested in what you mean by the 'daunting task'. Any language would be fine. ..... >This is what I see as the > most important aspect of studying the abhidhamma -- its practical > application. Although just being able to understand what is being > discussed (being able to identify and acknowledge its reality within > our consciousness) can be equally as daunting, as thoughts are as > fleeting as the breath. ... S: Again I'm curious to understand more about your meaning here. You see, you kindly answered the simple questions already, such as about where you live, so now I ask the difficult ones;-). Like the others, I look forward to any of your further input. A big welcome. Metta, Sarah ====== 43064 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Water, Life, and Death Hi Andrew T (& Maya), I found your post to Maya very moving and beautifully written too. --- Andrew wrote: > > "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that > is subject to change and unsatisfaction." > > Well, Maya, here's my theory ... I think the source of your > fascination with water may be found in the little quotation at the > very end of your email: the Buddha's teaching of anatta (no-self)! > When we truly realise that there is no permanent, lasting and > directing self, we see the world very differently. It's as if "we" > are just aggregates bobbing along in flowing water, having no control > over where we flow to. …. S: Yes, well said. And here, of course, is also the reason we resist the teaching of anatta and fight it with all the ammunition we have at our disposal until satipatthana begins to develop. Of course I was reminded of the description of sati recently which Larry and Nina posted: “Text Vis. : It has the characteristic of not wobbling. [64] Note 64 (from the Tiika). 'Apilaapana' ("not wobbling") is the steadying of an object, the remembering and not forgetting it, keeping it as immovable as a stone instead of letting it go bobbing about like a pumpkin in water'.” …. S: So when there is the growth of sati, the aggregates are not ‘out of control’ as anatta might suggest to some, but slowly there will be a growth in the guarding of the sense doors. So the irony is, that it is only by understanding more about the conditioned nature of aggregates that have no control and bob or wobble around at the mercy of the flows of life, that any real steadying or non-wobbling can develop! > You mentioned that you had been depressed. That, of course, happens > to all of us in this dukkha-ridden human existence. The Dhamma > points out that living in a sphere where we experience both happy and > unhappy can be much more advantageous than living in an ever happy > god realm. … S: More of your interesting and wise comments snipped. Before Nina mentioned a passage in the commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha which indicates the causes of happiness are: a) happiness accompanying lobha (attachment) b) being born with patisandhi citta (and thereby bhavanga cittas) accompanied by happiness and c) being a person who by nature does not think deeply. So often we just wish to be happy, but this is usually just a craving for pleasant feeling, i.e. attachment. …. <…> > For this reason, I think it is a mistake to believe that we *can* > direct the waves and currents in the present moment and explain this > supposed ability by saying "that's my cetana at work!" Wrong. > That's conditions at work. Many times when we are happy and calm, it > *looks like* "we" are practising mindfulness or metta or whatever. > That we are directing the flow of our consciousness. But that's only > an illusion. A water illusion? > > Our hope is to understand, not to direct. … S: Very good. Yes, the big water illusion;-). So, Andrew, I look forward to any more of your reflections, reminders and assistance with all our ‘troubled waters’. Metta, Sarah ====== 43065 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Citta Hi James & Connie, You make a great team! --- connie wrote: > James: Hmmm…that's interesting. So, he was a self-proclaimed sotapanna > and > a bit of a drama queen so you naturally think I have a psychic > connection > to him. Are you trying to tell me something? LOL! > > Connie: I think we're all drama queens, keeping our own story lines > going, > stuck in our views and their consequences. ... S: So true....drama queens and fellow stumblers... So why not do us a favour and post extracts from BB's 'Critical examination...' and discuss further together. Yes, I enjoy the discussions, especially when I'm not the one being psyched or accused of being condescending, smiling too much or whatever for a change..LOL and j/k, James! Attachment to viewpoints is of course of no use to anyone. On the otherhand some views are right and some are not, surely? The ariyans have no doubt about this at all, though many ignorant worldlings would call their confidence in what is true to be mere attachments. When we read in the suttas and especially the oft-quoted Sutta Nipata verses about the need to give up all views, it is the wrong views we hold that are being referred to. Anyway, I wasn't intending to really join in. Why not compare BB's and Nanavira's takes on D.O. and discuss in depth? You can keep us entertained and educated at the same time. Also on citta vithi (process of cittas), magga and phala cittas and anything else, if you don't have the stomach for the Vinaya this time round. ... > BBodhi's answer to "Clearing the Path" is in the mail. ... S: I look forward to both your reflections. Metta, Sarah p.s Oh yes, Connie, Simon Says!! James, I passed on your kind comments to my mother and she sends you her warm regards. She knows who you are because she read some of your letters last year in Switzerland. ================================ 43066 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Adinava e Nekkhamma Hi Enio, --- Enio César wrote: <...> > The Buddhist teachings are very vast. It doesn't seem to be possible to > study them without a route. So, to initiate my studies, I chose the > route given by the Buddha Himself. > The site "Access to Insight" has a Brazilian version "Acesso ao > Insight", where the original site in English has been translating into > Portuguese. From there I copied the Portuguese version of the > anupubbi-katha and now I am searching material about each topic of it. > It's not an easy task, because my English is really very bad and > sometimes it's not easy to distinguish the different views of the > various vehicles and schools. ... S: You remind me about Michael Beisert (sp?) who runs the Brazilian site. He was a very active member here for a while and I really enjoyed my discussions with him. We ended up in the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy). If you have any contact, please tell him he's missed and he'll probably tell you about all our fixed views;-). Your English seems good. Could you perhaps raise one of these topics from anupubbi-katha (gradual way) at a time with a mention of the materials you have. We could then discuss each one and add more material, perhaps. I'm still trying to understand what it is you're doing exactly, so pls elaborate. Sounds an interesting project. Just a simple phrase like 'draw near' to the teacher or teachings can carry a deep meaning. Is this the kind of thing? ... > I have been working first with the concepts of each topic of the > anupubbi-katha, complementing them with clarifying texts found on the > web. These two topics I left last, because it's not easy to find > material about them. ... As, I said, let's make it more of a joint project. I'm sure some of the knowledgable friends here will be happy to give links or references to further texts if you can briefly introduce each topic. You'll be doing us all a favour. Metta, Sarah ===== 43067 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - snip-- ====================== Wonderful. It sounds like there was both calm and significant clarity. Was this a state you "fell into", or was it during meditation? With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Thanks for your reply. It was during the session. I detected calmness. There also was clarity. But I do not think there is any insight apart from the knowledge that I knew 'that I knew clearly the state'. I think it is a facilitating stage. But I do not think it is absorption. With much respect, Htoo Naing 43068 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 3:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (275) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 planes of existence. These are called 31 realms or 31 bhumis. Human realm is just one of 31 realms. 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existence and 1 human realm or manussa bhumi have been discussed in foregoing posts. There are 6 kama deva realms and 20 brahma deva realms or 20 brahma realms. 6 kama deva realms are part of 11 kama bhumis or 11 sensuous planes of existence or 11 realms of sensuous sphere. 11 sensuous sphere realms are 4 woeful, 1 human, and 6 deva realms. After having discussed on 5 realms the remaining 6 realms will be dealt with here in this post. There are 6 deva realms. All these 6 realms are sensuous sphere or the domain of sensuous beings. That is all beings in these 6 realms are very fond of sensuous things and if they are not mindful or if they are not of the followers of The Buddha's Path, these devas in all these 6 realms will just follow sensuous matters rather than Dhamma. If one considers deeply he or she may become shocked (sanvega) that being reborn in devas realms is not better than being reborn in human realm. Because devas are subjected to forget. This happens because of the sensuous things that they experience. Deva realms are filled with sensuous things and they do not have the same things that we people in this world on this earth in this human realm are being faced. In deva realms there is no disease or human-like sufferings even though they have to suffer very great despair in their dying period. Most devas forget to follow The Buddha teachings. Devas are in separate realms from our human realm even though they occasionally visit our human realm. Their visits are more frequent when there is a Buddha in human realm. Otherwise most will not come to human realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 43069 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 4:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (276) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 6 deva realms. They are in hierchy structure. That is one is higher than another. These 6 deva realms are 1. catumahaaraajika deva bhumi 2. taavatimsaa deva bhumi 3. yaamaa deva bhumi 4. tusitaa deva bhumi 5. nimmanarati deva bhumi 6. paranimmita-vassavati deva bhumi The lowest among these 6 deva realms is catumahaaraajika deva bhumi. Here it will be explained. Catu means 'four'. Maha means 'great'. Raaja (raja) means 'king'. Raajika means 'at where king something ..' 'in where king something..' 'related to king's dwelling or king's activities'. Catumahajarika means 'where 4 great deva kings dwell and rule. This realm or bhumi is quite close to human realm and there are deva who are in close connection with human beings even though human beings may or may not know their existence. Tavatimsa is made up of the words 'ta' and 'tim'. Ta means 'three' and 'tim' means 'thirty'. So tavatimsa means '33'. There are 6 deva realms even though there maybe different deva population. Even if this name 'tavatimsa' did not arise there is a deva realm which is 'tavatimsa deva bhumi'. Once Bodhisatta was a human being and there he did good deeds along with 33 people. After their death in human realm all were reborn at 'tavatimsa deva bhumi'. Because of this its name become 'tavatimsa deva bhumi'. Above these 2 deva realms is yaamaa deva bhumi, which does have higher sensuality than 2 lower ones. Above this deva bhumi is tusitaa deva bhumi and it is higher than yaamaa deva bhumi. Catumaharajika devas do have fixed lifespan. They have 500 deva-years to live once they are reborn in catumaharajika deva realm. Higher and higher realms of deva have 4 times lifespan of their immediate underneath deva realm. Above tusitaa deva realm is nimmanarati deva realm. Nimmita means 'created one'. Nimma means 'creation' and narati means 'enjoy'. These nimmanarati devas enjoy their own creation and they are free of 'the suffering of lower deva realms'. Paranimmita-vassavati deva realm is the highest of all 6 deva realms. Para means 'others'. These devas enjoy 'the sensualities that are created by lower deva realm called nimmanarati devas'. Devas do not have 'satti' or bravery. Lower devas dare not look up higher devas unless the higher ones allow. The exception is the lowest 2 deva realms. This is one of the points why tavatimsa is the place of deva meeting. Catumaharajika devas can access tavatimsa deva realm. But both catumaharajika devas and tavatimsa deva do have access to higher deva realms while all other devas have access to their lower deva realms. Sakka is the king of tavatimsa deva realms and he also has the power to rule catumaharajika devas. 4 catumaharika deva kings have to report to the tavatimsa deva king 'Sakka' on a regular basis. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 43070 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 4:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread (277) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 6 deva realms. These 6 realms are sensuous sphere like human being and 4 woeful planes of existence. There are beings or sattas in these 6 realms. When dhammas are seen there is no being at all. But there are devas in these realms. They are reborn in these 6 realms. How were they reborn? There are 19 states of mind or 19 cittas that serve as rebirth consciousness or linking-consciousness or patisandhi citta. They are 1 duggati patisandhi or 1 woeful rebirth, 9 kama patisandhi or 9 happy destination rebirths, 5 rupa patisandhi or 5 fine-material- beings' rebirth, and 4 arupa patisandhi or non-material-beings' rebirth. Among them 9 kama patisandhi cittas are cittas of devas when they are reborn at thier respective realm. These 9 cittas are 1 upekkha- santirana citta of kusala origin and 8 mahavipaka cittas. Upekkha-santirana citta has been repeatedly explained in Dhamma Thread posts. At any time, anyone is encouraged to ask for further explanation. This upekkha santirana citta can serve as rebirth-consciousness for the lowest deva realm and not for tavatimsa-&-above deva realm. These devas have the least power unlike other devas who have deva-power. 8 patisandhis are 8 mahavipaka cittas. These 8 mahavipaka cittas are the results of their corresponding mahakusala cittas. 8 kama patisandhi or 8 mahavipaka cittas are 1.somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 2.somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta 3.somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 4.somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika citta 5. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 6. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta 7. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 8. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika citta Somanassa is made up of 'so' 'mana' and 'assa'. 'So' means good, agreeable. Mana means 'mind'. Assa shows possession. Manassa means 'of mind' 'mental'. Somanassa means 'mental joy' 'agreeable mind state or agreeable mental state'. The first 4 cittas have 'joy' or 'piti' as a mental factor. Upekkha is made up of 'upa' and 'ekkha'. Upa means 'not extreme'. Ekkha means 'feeling'. So upekkha means 'not good feeling' 'not bad feeling' or 'indifferent feeling'. It is a subtle feeling and hard to know. The latter 4 cittas have upekkha vedana or 'indifferent feeling' as a mental factor. Saha means 'in parallel' and gata means 'to go'. So somanassa saha gatam means 'along with joy' or 'along with agreeable mental feeling'. Nana means 'wisdom'. Sampayutta is made up of 'sam' and 'yutta'. Sam means 'well' 'thoroughly' and 'yutta' means 'along with' or 'co-arising'. So nana-sampayutta means mixed with wisdom. This means that panna cetasika or 'wisdom mental factor' arises with citta inseparably. Vippayutta means the opposite of sampayutta and so nana-vipayutta does not have wisdom. Sankhara means 'preparation' 'influencing' 'reforming' 'shaping'. Sankharika means 'being shaped' 'being influenced' 'being prompted'. Asankharika means 'direct opposite of sankharika. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 43071 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 3:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi, Htoo Butting in here also ;-)) > >What is in my mind is that 'if javana cittas are not kiriya cittas, > >they do have kamma effect'. > > > >But your thoughts are that if there is no kamma patha there is no > >rebirth related to that akusala. > > > >I sense both are talking on the same subject. > > > >When I approach 'kamma' while writing Dhamma Thread I will discuss it. I look forward to this. I find this a difficult area. My (tentative) understanding is that javana cittas that are kusala or akusala may have effect in one of 3 ways-- - they condition rebirth (that is, if the cetana is kamma patha) - they condition only vipaka citta through the 5 sense-doors (that is, if some but not all of the factors of kamma patha are present) - they do not condition vipaka (that is, none of the factors of kamma patha are present) but are accumulated as part of the anusaya (and so may in due course be of a strength such that they condition rebirth or vipaka of the 5 sense-doors). I'd be interested to know whether this is how you understand it too. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, It is not butting in. A good idea to participate in deed. I think I need to learn more about kamma. Because Sarah and I seem not to agree regarding this point. I think the seat of our understanding on these specific points is the angle of view. Conventionally if someone is not committing anything there is no reason to be reborn. Once committed, then there will be rebirth. The problem is the 'word' here ''committing''. What is committing? For me as I do not take consideration into rebirth as only vipaka it understand that 'committing' that I use is 'non-arahats' javana' that is non-kiriya javana. What Sarah discussed with me was 'conventional topic kamma'. That is kamma for average people. I do not know your third proposal. That is why I said above I need to learn more. With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: I have been busy these days. Apology for delayed reply 43072 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Jon, Thanks for your participation. Please see below. You wrote: Hi, Htoo Hope you don't mind if I butt in here ;-)) -------- Htoo: I do not assume butting in. -------- Jon: I don't think we can say that cittas that arise while doing this or that are kusala. The most we can say is that certain kinds of action are likely to involve a degree of kusala. But the reality of the particular case may be different. Kusala is of 3 kinds only: dana, sila or bhavana; or of 10 kinds as the punna-kiriya-vatthu. In the case of school learning, I see no reason the think that this should be kusala any more than any other ordinary, everyday activity. -------- Htoo: I was thinking on the matter of learning of monks. When they read some dhammas what are their javana cittas? I do not think simple learning is akusala unless they develop attachment while learning. --------- Jon: Well, I would just say that there is no necessary connection between 'deep thought' (a form of concentration) and the arising of kusala citta. ------------ Htoo: I agree. But it is difficult to say. ---------- Jon: Of the 7 jhaana factors (factors that conduce to concentration on a given subject matter), most are cetasikas that arise with both kusala and akusala cittas, and one is an exclusively aksuala cetasika. There are of course many references to concentration in the suttas and other texts, but I would see those references as being to concentration of the kusala kind, and not as supporting the idea that concentration tends to be kusala. Jon ---------- Htoo: I think it is better to leave 'Tiger Wood' here and we move to Dhamma. But those who do not have much demerit would not face any bad result as they are not doing bad things. ( Playing golf is not bad things even though it is not kamma patha kusala.) With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: I have been busy these days and I have to reply this at a later date. 43073 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Adinava e Nekkhamma Hi Sarah and Enio, A good idea. The Buddha gave a gradual teaching to general Siiha, beginning to help him see the danger of akusala and the benefit of kusala. It shows the Buddha's compassion, to be so thoughtful of what a person can take in first. Only later on he came to the deep teaching. It is good to reflect on this and apply in our life all these points the Buddha gave as a gradual teaching. Enio, I am still missing Michael, tell him. Nina. op 08-03-2005 10:38 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > I have been working first with the concepts of each topic of the >> anupubbi-katha, complementing them with clarifying texts found on the >> web. These two topics I left last, because it's not easy to find >> material about them. > ... > As, I said, let's make it more of a joint project. I'm sure some of the > knowledgable friends here will be happy to give links or references to > further texts if you can briefly introduce each topic. You'll be doing us > all a favour. 43074 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: The Citta Hi Sarah, Sarah: So why not do us a favour and post extracts from BB's 'Critical examination...' and discuss further together. Yes, I enjoy the discussions, especially when I'm not the one being psyched or accused of being condescending, smiling too much or whatever for a change..LOL and j/k, James! James: ;-) I read this post to a friend and he said, "Gosh that sounds like a woman who is fed up with you!" Hmmm…remember my off- list e-mail? ;-) Anyway, I may do as you suggest but I am still reading BB's critical examination (and taking issue with certain points). After that, I will probably read `Clearing the Path' to look more closely at the other side. This is a complicated issue so if I do decide to post about it, which I may not, it won't be for a while. Sarah: Attachment to viewpoints is of course of no use to anyone. On the otherhand some views are right and some are not, surely? James: Oh no, I am not going to get into it with you until you are less fed up with me. ;-)) Metta, James 43075 From: Joop Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 11:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Water, Life, and Death Hallo Andrew T, Sarah, Maya (and all), The diagnosis of Andrew and Sarah surprised me: --- Andrew wrote: > "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that > is subject to change and unsatisfaction." > Well, Maya, here's my theory ... I think the source of your > fascination with water may be found in the little quotation at the > very end of your email: the Buddha's teaching of anatta (no-self)! > When we truly realise that there is no permanent, lasting and > directing self, we see the world very differently. It's as if "we" > are just aggregates bobbing along in flowing water, having no control > over where we flow to. …. Sarah: Yes, well said. And here, of course, is also the reason we resist the teaching of anatta and fight it with all the ammunition we have at our disposal until satipatthana begins to develop. I think the Abhidhamma (and its commentaries) can not be used in this way as an instrument to make psychotherapeutic diagnostics (and therapies) ! And I'm glad you are not depressed any more, you have written on a poetic way about it. Metta Joop 43076 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thanks for your contributions, see you later. F/W from Hugo with his permission From: "Hugo" Hello Sarah, wrote: > I hope you don't mind, but I'm replying to part of your kind note(sent > off-list)on DSG and sending you a copy in case you're not following. No problem. > My main objection to what you wrote for your reflection > during this period was the following: > > I had repeated something along the lines of my favourite mantra and you > then replied: > > "I know, but we can't forget in what situation we are now and that we need > to work from where we are, so we need to take provisions to make the > current situation good enough so we can work on the final result." > > It's like you are saying, yes, I agree with the teachings BUT, self still > needs to do its job and there are still all these situations no matter how > much we talk about dhammas. Also, it may seem that we've 'perceived namas > coming and going', but isn't this just thinking about them coming and > going? I don't think I am saying exactly that. I am not saying that "self still needs to do its job", I say that IF "you" see a self, then "you" have bigger problems than one who doesn't see a self, thus "you" can't "use" the same "approach" than the people who don't see a self. That's why I keep bringing examples of little kids and alcoholics because they see "less clearly" than you or me and "they" strongly cling to a self, at least in these matters. See the difference? My suspicion is that you forgot what is to behave controlled by a self, thus you only advocate just "watching namas and rupas arise and cease". It is like when you are a kid, then a teenager, then an adult. By the time you are an adult you forgot how kids feel thus you keep in insisting that they do this or that, or you get angry because they want to see the same T.V. commercial 10 times!!, you forgot that you had similar quirks. Just remember when you were a teenager you probably said, "I won't do that with my kids" (criticizing some behavior of your parents), but once you are a parent, you start doing EXACTLY that kind of behavior that you criticized before. In summary it all depends on what is your level of understanding, what you can see, what you can do. Jon also misinterpreted our disagreement (don't know if you have been following that thread), please take a look at the last couple of messages of that thread. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42918 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42921 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42956 But don't tease me into coming back to discuss, otherwise Nina may die from a laugh attack. :-) > Btw, there have been several posts written to you directly or indirectly > since you started your sabbatical. I have them noted, so if you haven't > been following and you want me to give you the numbers off-list, let me > know. One was Jon's yest on Vism and one was Ken H's 'Popeye' post with a > few other one-liners in between;-). I saw them, I liked them, it showed the different "lines of thought". Greetings, -- Hugo 43077 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thanks for your contributions, see you later. 2nd message from Hugo f/w with his permission. Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:57:45 -0500 From: "Hugo" View Contact Details Hey, Sarah, complementing my previous message to you. I just thought of an excellent real-life example. My little kids "sees" dragons. Yes! He is playing normally and then he comes running like crazy, or he starts to cry and scream. He says that there is a dragon in the room, we (dad and mom) of course don't see anything, we ask him for the details he tells us that the dragon is green and yellow. We used "your approach", we told him that dragons doesn't exist, that there is nothing. Well, he keeps seeing them, still getting afraid, still crying, still suffering. We used another approach, dad and/or mom would "scare the dragon off", so we made the theatrical scene of telling the dragon to go off and leave us alone. It didn't work, he still sees them and is still scared. We used another approach, we asked for some more details about the dragon, then we told him to just wave and say "hello" to him, that the dragon is just a friend, he is not hurting us. Now, he is no longer that scared, still he sees the dragon and is still scared but not as much as before, and one time, my wife told me the following story. She called my son from her room, he came out from his room and passed in front of the stairs, he stopped looked down the stairs and waved his hand, smiled and said "hello", my wife was shocked, because there was nobody downstairs, so she asked my son to whom he had said "hello", my son replied "to the dragon". See? If I just kept telling my son that the dragons doesn't exist and there is nothing, I wouldn't have helped him in relieving his suffering, so I did something to stop that pain and of course I will keep working on understand that what he sees is not real, and this event with the dragon will help me as an example for when he grows up because when he starts "following the self" I can use the anecdote of the dragon and tell him that sometimes the mind plays this trick of creating things that look and feel real but they aren't. Greetings, -- Hugo 43078 From: Andrew Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 3:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Water, Life, and Death --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Andrew T, Sarah, Maya (and all), > > The diagnosis of Andrew and Sarah surprised me: > > --- Andrew wrote: > > "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that > > is subject to change and unsatisfaction." > > Well, Maya, here's my theory ... I think the source of your > > fascination with water may be found in the little quotation at the > > very end of your email: the Buddha's teaching of anatta (no- self)! > > When we truly realise that there is no permanent, lasting and > > directing self, we see the world very differently. It's as if "we" > > are just aggregates bobbing along in flowing water, having no > control > > over where we flow to. > …. > Sarah: Yes, well said. And here, of course, is also the reason we > resist the > teaching of anatta and fight it with all the ammunition we have at our > disposal until satipatthana begins to develop. > > I think the Abhidhamma (and its commentaries) can not be used in this > way as an instrument to make psychotherapeutic diagnostics (and > therapies) ! > And I'm glad you are not depressed any more, you have written on a > poetic way about it. Hi Joop I think it's good to be surprised from time to time but I get the feeling you think I have done something wrong. Problem is: I don't understand exactly what you are concerned about. Perhaps you might like to elaborate some time? Best wishes Andrew 43079 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 8:41pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 141 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(k) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)contd] *** Like vitakka, vicåra arises with all kåmåvacara cittas, cittas of the sense-sphere, except the dvi-pañcaviññåùas (the sensecognitions of seeing, hearing, etc.). When seeing-consciousness, for example, arises, it does not need vitakka nor does it need vicåra, because seeing-consciousness just sees. The other cittas of the eye-door process need vitakka which directs them to visible object and they need vicåra which keeps them occupied with visible object. It is the same in the case of the other sense-door processes. Vitakka and vicåra arise in sense-door processes as well as in mind-door processes, and they also accompany cittas which do not arise in processes (1). *** 1) For details about the cittas accompanied by vitakka and vicåra, see Appendix 3. ***** [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 43080 From: Waters Illusion Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bluejean Buddha: Evan Evan, I'm quoting from this site http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/pureland_sangha/ id41.html Personally for me, praying is like relearning or rereading what the buddha has said, his teachings. It is like reading a good book, you always learn something new no matter how many times you read it. Metta, Maya ______________________________ The Purpose of Buddhist Prayer Buddhist prayer is a practice to awaken our inherent inner capacities of strength, compassion and wisdom rather than to petition external forces based on fear, idolizing, and worldly and/or heavenly gain. Buddhist prayer is a form of meditation; it is a practice of inner reconditioning. Buddhist prayer replaces the negative with the virtuous and points us to the blessings of Life. Inspirational For Buddhists, prayer expresses an aspiration to pull something into one's life, like some new energy or purifying influence and share it with all beings. Likewise, prayer inspires our hearts towards wisdom and compassion for others and ourselves. It allows us to turn our hearts and minds to the beneficial, rousing our thoughts and actions towards Awakening. If we believe in something enough, it will take hold of us. In other words, believing in it, we will become what we believe. Our ability to be touched like this is evidence of the working of Great Compassion within us. What's more, it can a function as a form of self-talking or self-therapy in which one mentally talks through a problem, or talks through it aloud, in the hope that some new insight will come or a better decision can be made. Prayer therefore frequently has the function of being part of a decision-making process. Everywhere and Anytime The wonderful thing about prayer practice is that we can do it everywhere and anytime, transforming the ordinary and mundane into the Path of Awakening. Prayer enriches our lives with deep spiritual connection and makes every moment special, manifesting the Pure Land here and now. Pray for all living things. Lord Buddha taught to have compassion for all animals as well as human. We all have Buddha-nature. 43081 From: Waters Illusion Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 9:51pm Subject: Re: Bluejean Buddha: Rob Dear Rob, Wow...that's neat! Glad to know I'm not the only indonesian-speaking person in this group. I've been to Borobudur but that was when I was very little. I faguely remember it...maybe I'll go again sometime in the future. ~Maya 43082 From: Waters Illusion Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 10:04pm Subject: Re: Water, Life, and Death: Andrew Andrew, Thank you for your elaborate email... An interesting connection you make! I've never thought of it myself. I've always considered water to be the way my mind works...or the nature of the mind. When water is calm, the reflection one sees is clear...similarly, when our mind is calm, we're able to think clearly. On the contrary when water is undulating, the reflection we see is distorted, similarly when our minds are chaotic, we can't think clearly. For some reason I find my thoughts feelings, and personality to embody the nature and characteristics of water. I'm very adaptable like water, able to take the shape of its container...on the down side, I'm easily swayed by my environment and people's opinion. I seem to be walking in and out of depression, feeling like I've lost my motivation. I have some ideas why...but my situation can't be 100% solved, I can only cope with it. I appreciate your effort to help...thank you. With Metta, Maya 43083 From: Waters Illusion Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 10:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Water, Life, and Death Dear Sarah, Thank you for your answer. I think you are right, it seems like my sati is weak and I am trying to strengthen it. Perhaps too much insight and not enough sati? I will however take a satipatthana course this june...hopefully that'll help me. -maya 43084 From: Waters Illusion Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 10:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Water, Life, and Death Joop, Andrew, Sarah, and all... thank you again, for your comments...i really do appreciate them. sorry if i responded late. ~Maya 43085 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo- deva vehicles, rotating razors, busy demons & ariyan maths Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > You are now up to date to Dhamma Thread. This is because I had to > stop this week. Otherwise further 5 or 6 messages would be there on > the forum. ... S: Good to see you back. I appreciate your honest replies to other questions here, which I'll leave for now. > I just re-phrase the writing. > > It is in 4th chapter called vithi: > > 48. ''Asikkhaanam catucattaalisa sikkhaana muddise. Chappannaasaa' > vasesaanam, catupannaasa sambhavaa. Ayamettha puggala bhedo.'' > > a) asikkha or arahats have catucattaalisa [44 cittas] > b) sikkha or sotapatti-maggatthana to anagami-phalatthana chapannaasa > [56 cittas] > c) avasesaanam [4 puthujanas-tihetu,dvihetu,ahetu-ku,ahetu-aku] > catupannaasa [54 cittas]. > > This is what the small text says. But I recalculat them and posted. > > It is good of you that you respond in this matter. ... S: Right, I’m with you and I’m looking at the text and commentary. In B. Bodhi’s translation of the text, he adds helpful charts by U Silananda and there is one at this section with the various breakdowns. However, just as I was about to copy part of it, I notice there are a couple of small discrepancies between the chart and the commentary notes. From the commentary notes: a) arahants [44 cittas] – namely the 23 sense-sphere vipaka cittas, 20 kiriya cittas, arahant’s phala citta b) sikkha (trainees) [56 cittas] “occurring according to circumstances”- namely 23 sense-sphere vipaka citas, 2 avajjana (adverting), 21 kusala, 7 akusala. The 33 cittas excluded (i.e of total 89 cittas) are: 18 kiriya javana citas of the arahant only, 5 akusala cittas accompanied by wrong view and doubt, arahant’s magga and phala cittas. “However, differentiating, for stream-enterers and for once-returners there are [51 cittas]; for non-returners, [49 cittas]...” (S:this is where CMA’s Guide and U Silananda’s chart give [50] and [48] instead- I’m not sure what the discrepancy is – one wholesome citta, I think. Maybe RobM or Connie can help sort it out.) c) puthujanas (worldlings) [54 cittas] “occur according to circumstances; this is what one should point out without differentiating between the different types of ordinary person.” “However, differentiating, it should be understood that by those with three motivations (i.e 3 roots) exactly [54 cittas]...”; “by those with two motivations (i.e 2 roots) and those without motivations (i.e no roots), excluding the resultants associated with knowledge and the impulsions of absorption, [41 cittas]..”, “by those in the realms of misfortune, excluding just the resultants with two motivations, [37 cittas]....” There is more detail if we need it. I like this concluding comment: “The difference in persons means the difference in the occurrence of consciousness for the persons.” ... > That is why I thank you on behalf of other who are silent here. I > think some active memebers never read Dhamma Threads. Now that you > see my generalisation I can reply the specific point. I think it is > better to start another thread for discussion. Sotapams and anagams > are not the same in terms of possibility of arising of cittas. > Because 2 dosa cittas do not arise in anagams [there are 2 anagams. > One is maggatthana and another is phalatthana]. ... S: Yes, the figure of 56 included all the possible cittas for sikkhas, but none could have all. U.Silananda’s chart also covers the rupavacara and arupavacara cittas for each too. I tend to glaze over at the various numbers, but please let me know if you would like me to check anything anytime in the commentary or U Silananda’s charts. Metta, Sarah ======= 43086 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo Dear Htoo, Many thanks for your further comments on this thread too. I learn a lot from them and any checking of sources I need to do. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: > > Here is the reference: > > In the chapter nine of abhidhammatthasangaha called kammatthana it is > written > > 50. 'Upacaara samaadhi, appanaa samaadhi ceti duvidhopi samaadhi > citta visuddhi naama.' > > 51. 'Lakkhana rasa paccappatthaana padatthaana vasena naamaruupa > pariggaho ditthi visuddhi naama.' .... S: First let me give a translation from CMA, p.348, 349: (50) Purification of mind consists of two kinds of concentration, namely: access concentration and absorption concentration. (51) Purification of view is the discernment of mind and matter with respect to their characteristics, functions, manifestations, and proximate causes. .... S:These are under the section of the compendium of insight (vipassanaasangaha) in the text, after the ten insight knowledges have been enumerated. [btw, in BB’s CMA guide to (51), he gives a detailed description about a)the samathayaanika’ and b) the vipassanaayaanika and the point we both agree on with regard to path concentration being the equivalent of access for those who haven’t previously attained jhanas.] The commentary itself states: ***** (50) “It is called purification of consciousness because it is purifying by way of producing a state of consciousness that is free of hindrances, or out of consideration for the fact that is it expounded under the heading of consciousness and is a state of purification.” ***** My own understanding is that whenever we read such comments under the development of vipassana or referring to the visuddhis, the implication is that we’re reading about states of consciousness *with* samma ditthi and the other eightfold path factors. So citta visuddhi refers to degrees of samadhi or right concentration arising with satipatthana If jhana cittas or factors are the object of satipatthana, it is also citta visuddhi. I don’t believe ‘visuddhi’ can be applied to access or absorption concentration when there is any view of jhana cittas or any factors as being self, i.e when it isn’t the development of vipassana. The commentary to the next section adds: ***** (51) “The characteristic is the shared particular nature of dhammas; the property is their possessing a function; the manifestation is the manner of their appearance and effect. “Comprehending by way of their characteristic, etc, stated in this way, either in full – contact has the characteristic of contacting, earth the characteristic of hardness, and so on – or in short – mind (nama) has the characteristic of beinding, materiality (rupa) of affliction, and so on – taking hold of them by clearly distinguishing them by way of their individual characteristics and determining the reality of suffering, this is called ‘the purification of view’ out of consideration for the fact that it is a view, because of seeing that there is no self apart from mind and materiality, and a purification, because of cleaning away the stain of the view of self.” ***** S:My own understanding is that this third visuddhi refers to the first stage of insight, nama-rupa pariccheda nana, when the difference between nama and rupa is clearly discerned. I’ll look forward to any further comments from you or others. Metta, Sarah ======== 43087 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 3:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo- deva vehicles, rotating razors, busy demons & ariyan maths S: Yes, the figure of 56 included all the possible cittas for sikkhas,but none could have all. U.Silananda's chart also covers the rupavacara and arupavacara cittas for each too. I tend to glaze over at the various numbers, but please let me know if you would like me to check anything anytime in the commentary or U Silananda's charts. Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply and kind comments. I also would like to thank you for further inclusion of commentaries. The reason that I write 'Dhamma Thread' is 1.to explain 'citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana' repeatedly in many different ways 2.to explain the ways they are interconnected 3.to help people follow the Path and 4.to help them for self-awareness. Here I use 'self-awareness'. There is no self. I use conventional word here. Self-awareness here means 'people can check dhammas for themselves when there is no teacher available. If a good teacher is available, there is no other good substitution for such teacher. Pothila knew everything in tipitaka but he still had to follow the instruction by a 7-year-old arahat (a child) So far 'Dhamma Thread' has passed through citta, cetasika, pakinnaka, vithi, vithi-mutta, rupa. These 6 chapters are a summary of 7 texts of abhidhamma. Samuccaya, paccaya, and kammatthana are said to be a summary of 'suttas and vinayas'. When I reach those portions, I do hope 'Sutta experts' 'vinaya experts' 'kammatthana experts' and many other experts help 'Dhamma Thread' for learners or readers. I snipped nearly everything because I agree with you regarding facts (like 44, 56, 54 and commentarial work). With much respect, Htoo Naing 43088 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 3:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo Dear Sarah, I agree with your reply. This happens because we both read the same text and the same commentaries. When I read your messages quoted by commentaries, I felt like I was reading in Burmese words. Please see below for further discussion. With regards, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Dear Htoo, Many thanks for your further comments on this thread too. I learn a lot from them and any checking of sources I need to do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Most welcome and both you and me are for the benefit of the members. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I quoted in my old message: ''50. 'Upacaara samaadhi, appanaa samaadhi ceti duvidhopi samaadhi citta visuddhi naama.' 51. 'Lakkhana rasa paccappatthaana padatthaana vasena naamaruupa pariggaho ditthi visuddhi naama.'' .... S: First let me give a translation from CMA, p.348, 349: (50) Purification of mind consists of two kinds of concentration, namely: access concentration and absorption concentration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: namely = naama. Purification of mind = citta visuddhi. two kinds of concentration = duvidhopi samaadhi upacaara samaadhi = access concentration appanaa samaadhi = absorption concentration ceti = ca + iti = like this So essentially the meanings are the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah quoted from commentaries: ''(51) Purification of view is the discernment of mind and matter with respect to their characteristics, functions, manifestations, and proximate causes. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will leave this. Because our current discussion is on citta- visuddhi or purification of mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:These are under the section of the compendium of insight ...snip...snip... ..snip...snip...snip...and materiality, and a purification, because of cleaning away the stain of the view of self." ***** S:My own understanding is that this third visuddhi refers to the first stage of insight, nama-rupa pariccheda nana, when the difference between nama and rupa is clearly discerned. I'll look forward to any further comments from you or others. Metta, Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Citta visuddhi is talked in the setting of 7 visuddhi. So upacara samadhi and appana samadhi both have to be in the domain of mahasatipatthana. Abhidhammatthasangaha is so packed that sometimes some do not understand the contents fully. At that time further commentaries will help understanding. With Metta, Htoo Naing 43089 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 4:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread (278) Dear Dhamma Friends, 8 kama patisandhi or 8 mahavipaka cittas are 1.somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 2.somanassa saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta 3.somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 4.somanassa saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika citta 5. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta 6. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayuttam sasankharika citta 7. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayuttam asankharika citta 8. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika citta Kama means 'sensuous things' and they are related to 5 senses of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and thoughts related to these senses. Patisandhi is made up of 'pati' and 'sandhi'. Pati means 'again' 'further'. Sandhi means 'join' 'connect' 'link'. Patisandhi means 're-joining' 're-linking' and it is essentially 'rebirth'. This rebirth is actually 'birth'. As there were past births the current birth is called re-birth. This 'patisandhi' is not equivalent to English word 'birth'. Birth is a long process while patisandhi is just a single mind moment. So westerners may confuse with terms if pure translations are used without checking real meanings and deep meanings. For average human beings they have to be in the womb for 9 to 10 months. This is not birth or rebirth. But the baby inside has already been in the state of patisandhi or rebirth. Maha means great. Vipaka means result. Mahavipaka here is used to differentiate it from rupavipaka and arupavipaka, which are the results of rupakusala (rupa jhana kusala) and arupakusala (arupa jhana kusala). Citta here is a state of mind which exists for a single moment. Above 8 cittas are resultant consciousness to their corresponding wholesome consciousness when beings did as kamma patha dhamma or wholesome merit that brings rebirth-result. Most deva beings are born with these 8 cittas even though very few may be reborn with 'ahetuka kusala vipaka santirana citta' or 'rootless wholesome resultant investigating consciousness :-) '. 1. happy-minded, wisdom-loaded, and unprompted mind 2. happy-minded, wisdom-loaded, and prompted mind 3. happy-minded, wisdom-lack, and unprompted mind 4. happy-minded, wisdom-lack, and prompted mind 5. indifferent-feeling-tagged, wisdom-loaded, and unprompted mind 6. indifferent-feeling-tagged, wisdom-loaded, and prompted mind 7. indifferent-feeling-tagged, wisdom-lack, and unprompted mind 8. indifferent-feeling-tagged, wisdom-lack, and prompted mind When beings are in a given life, they do wholesome deeds and meritorious deeds with one of these 8 states of mind. Just before coming into this current life was the immediate past life. Their wholesome deeds might be in that past life or might be from other past life. But the kamma (potential power) when they committed came to their light near dying and there arose marana-asanna-javana-cittas or 'dying-frequenting-impulsive-consciousness' arose and at the end followed cuti-citta or dying-consciousness of that life. Cuti-citta or dying-consciousness is resultant consciousness and so there was no further result from that result. But because of 'dying- frequenting-impulsive-consciousness' which are kamma, there had to arise the resultant consciousness of one of mentioned 8 consciousness. This citta arose at the very early part of this life and it is called patisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness or linking- consciousness. It is linking the dying-consciosuness and the first life-continuing- consciousness. That is it arose between dying-consciousness of immediate past life and the 1st life-continuing-consciousness and served as linker or joiner and so it is called patisandhi or linking. Patisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness passed away immediately as soon as it arises. This is followed by life-continuing consciousness as there are many many kamma still being left. These consciousness arise as long as there is a life and as long as there is no sense or arammana or object that stimulate arising of consciousness in procession. These mentioned 8 consciousness are rebirth consciousness of most deva beings and they serve as life continuing consciousness and finally they serve as dying consciousness. But in between rebirth and death are many many instants of moments and if there is no consciousness in procession or no vithi cittas then there have to arise life continuing consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 43090 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 4:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (279) Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. happy-minded, wisdom-loaded, and unprompted mind 2. happy-minded, wisdom-loaded, and prompted mind 3. happy-minded, wisdom-lack, and unprompted mind 4. happy-minded, wisdom-lack, and prompted mind 5. indifferent-feeling-tagged, wisdom-loaded, and unprompted mind 6. indifferent-feeling-tagged, wisdom-loaded, and prompted mind 7. indifferent-feeling-tagged, wisdom-lack, and unprompted mind 8. indifferent-feeling-tagged, wisdom-lack, and prompted mind There are 8 cittas that deva biengs are reborn with. Deva beings may have 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas or 7 rootless-unwholesome- resultant consciousness and 8 ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas or 8 rootless-wholesome-resultant-consciousness. So they may have further 15 cittas in addition to 8 cittas. So there are 23 cittas. Deva beings do have unwholesome mind and they commit unwholesome deeds. So there are further 12 akusala cittas added to 23 cittas and they will make 35 cittas. Deva beings will have 2 functional consciousness or 2 inoperative consciousness if they are still not arahats. So they will have 37 cittas. When they do good deeds there will arise 8 wholesome consciousness called mahakusala cittas. So they mostly will have 45 cittas if they are ordinary beings that is they do not have jhana, magga, and phala. These deva beings in 6 deva realms essentially have the same maximal possible number of cittas like human beings. That is 45 consciousness or 45 cittas out of 89 total cittas. If they further gain jhanas there will be a change in possible number of cittas that can arise in them. The same is true for when they develop insight and they obtain magga nana and phala nana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 43091 From: Joop Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 4:52am Subject: Abhidhamma and psychology [was Re: Water, Life, and Death] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Joop > > I think it's good to be surprised from time to time but I get the > feeling you think I have done something wrong. Problem is: I don't > understand exactly what you are concerned about. Perhaps you might > like to elaborate some time? > > Best wishes > Andrew Hallo Andrew You asked me to elaborate a little more my 'concern' about your interpretation of Maya's liking the 'water-metaphore'. I will try but then I want to abstract from the example of Maya. So made more general. I read many examples, from Europe and more especially from the USA, where buddhist techniques are used in a pure technical way for psychotherapy. And I have read texts in which the Teachings, and more especially the Abhidhamma are used as a reader in psychology; where for example 'false views' are used as a diagnostic psychological set of instruments. To me I made a strong division: When one want to get enlightened (liberated): follow the soteriological path of the Buddha. When one want to get rid of obsessions and other mental problems: or don't pay to much attention to them or go to a psychologist. But don't mix soteriology and psychotherapy. I got the impression you did but perhaps I don't need to be concerned about your text. Metta Joop 43092 From: Joop Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 4:53am Subject: Having no opinions Dear all Not clinging to views is one of the central topics of the Teachings, especially not clinging to any doctrine of a self. Of course one should not keep 'false' views; but in some suttas the Buddha states that one should not keep any view, any opinion at all. For example verse 5 of the Atthaka Vagga, part of the Sutta-Nipata, called 'Supreme' (see below) doesn't give much room (or no room at all) for the positive value for having a 'right view', as stated in other parts of the Teachings of the Buddha. In the explanation to the translation I have read that some comments to this paradox state that this text should be taken at face value; other readers say these verses of the Atthaka Vagga should be further interpreted. I'm afraid that 'further interpreted' means : render harmless I like this Vagga: this suttas make having any orthodoxy impossible. But, to be honest, I still have opinions, I('m not yet perfetc. Metta Joop Supreme - Paramatthaka Sutta (Sutta-Nipata, IV-5) When dwelling on views as "supreme," a person makes them the utmost thing in the world, &, from that, calls all others inferior and so he's not free from disputes. When he sees his advantage in what's seen, heard, sensed, or in precepts & practices, seizing it there he sees all else as inferior. That, too, say the skilled, is a binding knot: that in dependence on which you regard another as inferior. So a monk shouldn't be dependent on what's seen, heard, or sensed, or on precepts & practices; nor should he conjure a view in the world in connection with knowledge or precepts & practices; shouldn't take himself to be "equal"; shouldn't think himself inferior or superlative. Abandoning what he had embraced, abandoning self, not clinging, he doesn't make himself dependent even in connection with knowledge; doesn't follow a faction among those who are split; doesn't fall back on any view whatsoever. One's who isn't inclined toward either side —becoming or not-, here or beyond— who has no entrenchment when considering what's grasped among doctrines, hasn't the least preconceived perception with regard to what's seen, heard, or sensed. By whom, with what, should he be pigeonholed here in the world? —this brahmin who hasn't adopted views. They don't conjure, don't yearn, don't adhere even to doctrines. A brahmin not led by precepts or practices, gone to the beyond —Such— doesn't fall back. 43093 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 5:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread (280) Dear Dhamma Friends, Deva beings will mostly be in their sensualties as they are fond of sensualities. Some devas are so fond of sensualties that they forget to take their deva food or nutriment when they are consuming the sensualties. Because of lack of nutriment support these sorts of deva beings have to leave their current deva realm. That is they die because of forgetfulness. Some deva beings met The Buddha in person and they listened what The Buddha preached. Among them some retain Dhamma and some do not. Instead of following Dhamma, they follow sensualties because of their tendencies to bend toward sensualties. Trainee deva beings or deva beings who become sotapanna, sakadagams, and anagam will stay in Dhamma and follow what The Buddha preached. Deva beings may attain jhana or absorptive consciousness if they train themselve to develop jhanas. If this happen then there will be extra possible consciousness added to 45 cittas that ordinary deva beings may have during their life time in deva realms. Deva beings may develop both rupa jhana or material absorption if they follow the practice and they may also obtain arupa jhana or immaterial absorption if they follow that pathway. As soon as they develop jhana cittas which are jhana kusala cittas there will be extra possible cittas. If they attain different stages of enlightenment then they will change their personal status or puggala to the corresponding achievement in enlightnement. This means that if they are still ordinary deva beings that is if they are puthujana there will be 45 possible cittas. If they become trainee-grade deva beings they will have 56 cittas out of 89 total cittas and if they attain arahatta magga nana and achieve arahatta phala nana then they will become arahats and there will be 44 possible alternative cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 43094 From: nina Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 11:15am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 1. Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 1 Alobha and Adosa. Intro: Each kusala citta has to be accompanied by alobha, non-attachment, and adosa, non-aversion, and it may or may not be accompanied by amoha or paññaa. The sobhana hetus are the foundation or support of kusala citta, they are like the roots of a tree which are its foundation and its means of obtaining nourishing sap. The Visuddhimagga deals here with the three sobhana hetus, since it mentions all the cetasikas included in the khandha of formations that accompany the first type of mahaakusala citta, mahaakusala citta accompanied by paññaa. No matter whether we perform daana or siila, the kusala citta has to be accompanied by alobha and adosa and it may be accompanied by amoha as well. For bhaavanaa, mental development, which includes samatha and vipassanaa, amoha is indispensable. Text Vis.: 143. (xiii)-(xv) By its means they are not greedy (na lubbanti), or it itself is not greedy, or it is just the mere not being greedy (alubbhana), thus it is 'non-greed (alobha). N: The Tiika refers to the expression ŒBy its means they are not greedy¹. Alobha is the opposite of greed or attachment. It itself is not greedy and it conditions the accompanying dhammas to be non-greedy. Or, beings endowed with non-greed are not greedy, the Tiika explains. Text Vis: The same method applies to 'non-hate' (adosa) and 'non-delusion¹ (amoha) [na dussanti, adussana=adosa, and na muyhanti, amuyhana = amoha (see par. 171,161)]. Of these, 'non-greed' has the characteristic of the mind's lack of desire for an object, or it has the characteristic of non-adherence, like a water drop on a lotus leaf. N: A water drop glides off a lotus leaf without affecting it. Evenso, alobha is not affected by any object that is experienced. Text Vis.: Its function is to not lay hold, like a liberated bhikkhu. It is manifested as a state of not treating as a shelter, like that of a man who has fallen into filth. N: As to Œnot laying hold¹ (apariggaho), the Tiika explains that this is non-attachment, non-attachment to anybody¹s property that could arise due to selfish clinging (mamatta). The liberated bhikkhu, the arahat, is not attached to any object, he has eradicated all forms of lobha. He is completely free from all defilements. Someone who has fallen into a cesspool does not consider that as a refuge, he sees it as a danger. **** N: The Pali terms of alobha, adosa and amoha can help us to be more precise with regard to the characteristics of dhammas, but we should not merely remember the terms. We should realize the characteristics of the dhammas represented by these terms, as they occur in daily life. Through satipa.t.thaana we can learn when the dhamma that adheres to an object appears, and when the dhamma that does not adhere, thus, alobha, appears. There are many shades and degrees of alobha. When we apply ourselves to daana, siila and bhaavana we do not think of our own comfort and pleasure. When one develops samatha one sees the disadvantages of clinging to sense objects and one's aim is to be removed from them. The development of vipassanaa leads to detachment from all objects. Through vipassanaa dhammas will be seen as they really are: impermanent, dukkha and non-self, and clinging is eradicated stage by stage. The arahat is truly liberated from all clinging. *** Vis. Text: 'Non-hate' has the characteristic of lack of savagery, or the characteristic of non-opposing, like a gentle friend. N: The Tiika adds to savagery (ca.n.dika), anger (kopo). It explains that the opposite of that is lack of savagery, non-illwill. Non-opposing means not quarreling (aviggaho). The characteristic of dosa is harshness, whereas the characteristic of adosa is gentleness, like a gentle friend. We can learn the difference when these cetasikas appear in our daily life. Text Vis.: Its function is to remove annoyance, or its function is to remove fever, as sandalwood does. It is manifested as agreeableness, like the full moon. N: The Tiika explains agreeableness: it is assured of gladness due to affection (mejjana). Non-aversion, adosa, has many shades and degrees. Adosa directed towards living beings is loving kindness, mettaa. Adosa with regard to an object that is not a living being can be described as patience. There can be patience with regard to unpleasant objects such as heat, cold, or bodily pain. When others act in an inappropriate way or indulge in wrong speech, we can have adosa, patience, instead of irritation. When we understand that akusala citta arises because it is conditioned by the latent tendencies, we shall have more mettaa and compassion for others. Adosa assists daana, siila and bhaavanaa. When we abstain from akusala which harms other beings, it is an act of kindness. We do not think of our own comfort, but we are intent of other beings¹ welfare. We need patience for samatha and vipassanaa. If we are annoyed about lack of progress this will counteract mental development. As we read in the Tiika with regard to agreeableness: Œit is assured of gladness due to affection (mejjana).¹ When we abstain from speaking harsh words, we have mettaa. We should remember that kusala siila leads to non-remorse, to gladness, happiness and calm. **** Nina 43095 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 1:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Hi Ken. YOU: I wonder if you are making a point I have heard others make from time to time: Even on DSG, people have said, "Sure, there is no eternal self or atman, but there is a temporary self!" ............... YES! This is sutra teaching (what the Buddha dictated). The Buddha even rename his, temp self, to Taga... and the Buddha. -------- YOU: It seems to me now, that you have been taught a very different Abhidhamma from the one I am being taught - the Theravada one. And so we have probably been talking at cross-purposes for most of our conversation. ........... No, I learned it then move on. I have also looked at the Mahayana sutra and Abhidhamma. I have even look at Tibetan ..., and psychology and sociology. ------ YOU: The Abhidhamma that I have been learning lists, classifies and explains all of the various dramas. It is entirely consistent with the other parts of the Dharma and is found, not only in the abhidhamma Pitaka, but also in the sutras and (I think) in the Vinaya. ............ Please remember, the Abhidhamma was not dictated by the Buddha, it was developed by learned monks, we like to believe they were Arhants, and they know all there is to know. It is-not entirely consistent with the sutras. There are concepts in the adhidhamma that are not in the sutras (e.g., rebirth-consciousness). The Abhidhamma was an attempted to rival the Vedas (the science in Hinduism). ---------- YOU: Worse still, some Buddhists believe Nibbana is a kind of heaven where we will live eternally. A major source of this belief is the web site, Access To Insight. There, Bhikkhu Thanissaro teaches that the doctrine of anatta is not actually true. He says it is only a device to remove stress from our thinking and thereby smooth the progress of meditation. This part of the venerable's teaching is entirely, and dangerously, misguided. .............. Study Buddhist history -- you see how and why beliefs like this and yours developed, and the changes they have gone through to become so diverse and numerous today. Some Buddhist believe the view of no-existing-self is dangerously misguided. It removes the need for the 8-fold path, especially morality. Historically there were too types of people that were enilist (1. criminals and the wealthy; 2. some groups of recluses that were waiting for the body to die -- they saw this place as "hell" i.e., samsara.) ------------- YOU: I wonder if this explains why you disagree when I say desire is the cause of our problems and it cannot lead the way out. You seem to be saying that we somehow have control over reality. This is at odds with the Dharma that says the world is composed purely of conditioned namas and rupas (arising and falling away at extraordinary speed). Apart from those conditioned dramas (and with the exception of Nibbana) there is nothing - no people, no controller, no sun, no chariots, nothing. ................. I know the teachings on desire. I also studied what the Buddha went through to become "E." Also the basis on Mahayana Buddhism if Bodicita. Just because the universe is made up of conditioned dramas does not mean that nothing exist. Ask your self, "Do the conditions exist?" ------------- YOU: In order that we can both know what we are talking about, would you please expand upon your comments above, and briefly describe your understanding of anatta. .............. To talk of emptiness is not the same as nothing. Emptiness implies that there must be a container, something. MY TAKE ON NOT-self: There is no-self that exist on its own (requires nothing), that is unchanging, uncompounded, or permanent, no thing, not you, not me. Our existence is relative, the self is changing, compounded, and impermanent, and nothing can change that. Charles 43096 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 1:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Larry LBIDD@w... wrote: >Larry: "You can't be conscious of what you are not conscious of." > >Hi Howard and Jon, > >I had a better version of this email but it disappeared. What I meant by >the above is that in distinguishing between nama and rupa in experience >the problem is that rupa, as such, is not an experience. So one must >experience the experience of a non-experience _and_ experience a >non-experience separate from experience. Obviously the second part of >this is impossible without concept and reason. > > Not sure if I've caught your meaning here. Would you mind giving an example or two. In general, I would say rupa is not described by saying it is a 'non-experience'. We are talking surely about rupas that are currently the object of experience. >Also I wanted to say that even the most penetrating experience needs >reason to contextualize and make sense of it. Phenominalism can't do >without reason any more than realism can, and in some ways phenominalism >is more reasonable. But experience has to be the basis of reason. > > Any and all experiences are followed by thinking about that experience; that seems to be the nature of things. Jon 43097 From: mnease Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 1. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:15 AM Subject: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 1. > Adosa with regard to an object > that is not a living being can be described as patience. There can be > patience with regard to unpleasant objects such as heat, cold, or bodily > pain. Thanks, I hadn't heard this before. Is this synonymous with 'khanti'? I'd never made a connection between the root adosa and khanti. mike 43098 From: mnease Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Appliedthinking/Vitakka,Jotipala. Hi Nina, Sorry for the delay... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 6:36 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Appliedthinking/Vitakka,Jotipala. N: He had to develop them to an extraordinary level, so that he could become a Sammaasambudha. It is also a lesson for us that the development is ciira kaala bhaavanaa. M: Yes, longtme cultivation--in conventional terms of course. Only one moment at a time though. By the way, is vicaara necessarily conditioned by immediately previous vicaara? Since vitakka and vicaara each last only a moment, their difference is hard to understand otherwise. I thought maybe, disappearence and contiguity? ... N: In fact the Bodhisatta must have been aware of them, how otherwise would he realize their presence? M: Of course--this awareness would have been after the fact though, I think--in reviewing. Or do you think these were cases of cittas with awareness taking immediately fallen-away vitakkas as objects? N: I think both cases. Otherwise he could not acquire tender insight. Yes, that makes sense, I guess--unless tender insight had already been acquired. Thanks again, Nina. mike 43099 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 2:40pm Subject: Re: Having no opinions Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Dear all > > Not clinging to views is one of the central topics of the Teachings, > especially not clinging to any doctrine of a self. > Of course one should not keep 'false' views; but in some suttas the > Buddha states that one should not keep any view, any opinion at all. Thank you so much for bringing this issue up (I wanted to address it with someone other than Sarah- to give her a break ;-). I agree with your conclusions and find your sutta quotation most helpful. So often when we read in the suttas about wrong views here and wrong views there, we think that there must be a `Right View' somehow that is aligned with Buddhism; and sometimes the first factor of the Noble Eightfold Path is defined as `Right View'; however, the Buddha really taught that having no views is the ultimate means of liberation. Views are just opinions, and opinions are based on the false idea of self: "I'm right and you're wrong". The Buddha and his arahants didn't have "views" they had "direct knowledge". They didn't have to have a view/opinion about how things are because they knew directly how things are! However, to begin following the path, one must have some views/opinions about the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path; then, when the goal has been reached, those views are abandoned- and the truth is directly known. The Buddha gave a sutta about this when he said that even the teaching must be abandoned when the stream is crossed, like a raft which has served it's purpose and is no longer needed. Metta, James 43100 From: Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Jon, Regarding distinguishing between color and seeing there is a problem. It isn't like distinguishing between feeling and intention. When we distinguish between feeling and intention it's easy. Now we experience feeling, and now we experience intention. They are two distinctly different experiences. Can we say in the same way "now we experience eye consciousness, and now we experience color"? For one thing, is consciousness itself a distinct experience? Can eye consciousness, by itself without an object, be an object of consciousness? Secondly, how is color experienced distinctly different from consciousness? Experience is consciousness, so how can we experience something that is other than experience? In other words, how can we distinguish the two, rupa and consciousness, in consciousness? We can't go outside of consciousness and verify rupa with something other than consciousness, unless we use concept. Rupa is, by definition, other than nama. I suggested to Mike a couple of ways to deal with this problem in distinguishing between nama and rupa. Another way is to simply say any experience of rupa is an undifferentiated whole because we can't differentiate between consciousness and rupa _in experience_. I suspect Nina would say panna can penetrate this whole and "know" rupa directly, apart from 5-door consciousness. But it seems to me the medium is still consciousness (whatever that is) so rupa would still be "known" as an experience, in other words, a consciousness. Consciousness is knowing and there is no panna without consciousness. Larry 43101 From: mnease Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Mike and Larry, A good topic. op 07-03-2005 06:04 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: > Without 'one' to experience I don't see this as a problem--if I understand > it correctly, naama can experience ruupa (as well as naama). I think only > the 'experiencer' needs to be subtracted from the equation for this to > make > sense. I'm all for concept and reason in their place but their place is > not > in satipa.t.thaana I think. Concept and reason can occur (usually do I > think) afterward and can be very valuable if consistent with dhamma. N: I think also before, we need intellectual understanding first. M: Yes, thanks, I'm convinced of this. N: We have to hear again and again and again that nama and rupa are objects of sati and paññaa, all objects appearing through the six doors, one at a time, also now. M: Right-- N: We have to know that sati cannot be directed to specific objects. M: Even when supported by jhaana? N: That sati cannot be induced. M: Not induced, but aroused? I'm thinking of "...[a bhikkhu] Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya parimukham satim upatthapetva so satova assasati sato passasati = "Sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps is body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him."* Since the Buddha plainly says here, "...a bhikkhu...arouses mindfulness...", aren't we just talking about different modes of expression or different methods of explanation? Let me add that I don't think this passage is meant as an instruction to a present-day layperson or that there really is 'a bhikkhu' except as a designation or formation. In other words, I think that anattataa is implicit in this and all texts (where it isn't explicit). N: The more one wants it the less chance for its arising. M: Of course it can't arise with craving. This reminded me of an interesting passage in PTS's Dispeller, from the Classification of the Structure of Conditions (3) Profitable, Rooted in a Formation: "...994. Herein, because in a single conscious moment there is no ignorance together with a profitable formation, therefore instead of saying that, kusalamuula.m...("profitable root") is said because it is the root of profitable states, as ignorance is of unprofitable states; and, because of the absence of craving and clinging, in the place of craving, "trust" (pasaada), which is engrossed in the object like craving is said; and in the place of clinging, "determination", which has a strong impact is said." Do you think this is pertinent to the arousing of mindfulness without craving or clinging? mike *http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryBody.htm 43102 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 8:38pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 142 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(l) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)contd] *** Vitakka and vicåra are conditioned dhammas, sa'nkhåra dhammas, which arise and fall away together with the citta they accompany. They perform their functions only during an extremely short moment, namely the duration of one citta. Their object can be a paramattha dhamma or a concept. We may wonder how vitakka and vicåra perform their functions while we are engaged with the thinking of “stories”. It seems that thinking can last for a while, but in reality there are many cittas accompanied by vitakka and vicåra and other cetasikas, which arise and fall away, succeeding one another. It is because of saññå, remembrance, that we can remember the previous thought and that there can be connection of different thoughts. ***** [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 43103 From: Joe Cummings Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 9:19pm Subject: Abhidhamma challenge Hi - It has been a long time since I posted on DSG, though I have 'lurked' here now and again. On another Buddhism-related online forum I post to on occasion, a member has challenged the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Here's the link in case anyone here would like to respond (I hope someone will!) http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28366&st=0 Keep up the good work. Joe 43104 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 9:33pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Cummings" wrote: > > Hi - It has been a long time since I posted on DSG, though I have > 'lurked' here now and again. > > On another Buddhism-related online forum I post to on occasion, a > member has challenged the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > Here's the link in case anyone here would like to respond (I hope > someone will!) > > http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28366&st=0 > > Keep up the good work. > > Joe ==== Good to see you again Joe, The link seems not to be working? There are so many challenges to Abhidhamma, even from early times. Robertk 43105 From: Joe Cummings Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 10:16pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi Robert I think the link I posted was incomplete, should be: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php? act=ST&f=42&t=28347&st=0#entry298058 You may have to paste together broken strings. I could post the text here if you'd like? Joe C --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Cummings" > wrote: > > > > Hi - It has been a long time since I posted on DSG, though I have > > 'lurked' here now and again. > > > > On another Buddhism-related online forum I post to on occasion, a > > member has challenged the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > > Here's the link in case anyone here would like to respond (I hope > > someone will!) > > > > http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28366&st=0 > > > > Keep up the good work. > > > > Joe > ==== > Good to see you again Joe, > The link seems not to be working? > There are so many challenges to Abhidhamma, even from early times. > Robertk 43106 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo Dear Htoo,(Nina & Larry), Part 2 - thx for your prompt replies yesterday to Part 1 and another thread. This part is on kamma. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: :)) A big smile. > > We are talking the same thing with different angle. > > What is in my mind is that 'if javana cittas are not kiriya cittas, > they do have kamma effect'. > > But your thoughts are that if there is no kamma patha there is no > rebirth related to that akusala. > > I sense both are talking on the same subject. ... S: My thoughts were that if there is no kamma patha, that particular kamma or cetana will not bring any results by itself. So when we're talking about ordinary daily akusala, such as concentration with attachment or ignorance on the golf course, it's not harmful enough to condition rebirth *or any other results*. ... > When I approach 'kamma' while writing Dhamma Thread I will discuss it. > > There are 3 akusalas. There are 8 akusalas. There are 12 akusala > cittupada or 12 states of akusala mind. Akusala always have akusala > vipaka. ... S: It's true that any of these cittas can be associated with kamma patha bringing about vipaka. It's like the discussion on the numbers yesterday, all possibilities are shown, but this doesn't mean (in this case) that all akusala cittas always bring results, if you understand my meaning. In D.O. when we read about (abhi)sankhara conditioning vinnana (vipaka cittas), I understand abhisankhara refers to kamma patha, not to all akusala. This is why I understand kilesa vatta (round of defiulements) and kamma vatta(round of kamma) are differentiated. This is a very difficult area and I appreciate that you have a different understanding. .... > If not just stay away from akusala kamma patha. I do not think this > will work. .... S: What is important is to understand the harm of any akusala when it arises, not just because of the results it will bring in future, which may well just be more attachment to 'me'. I appreciated the Vism passages Larry and Nina just quoted. Alobha (non-greed) 'is manifested as a state of not treating as a shelter, like that of a man who has fallen into filth'. Not looking for a shelter in attachment, aversion or ignorance but 'the characteristic of non-adherence, like a water drop on a lotus leaf'. In India we passed some beautiful lakes full of lotus leaves (and flowers) and I thought of this simile of water drops not settling on the leaves. .... <...> > Htoo: I agree. Kamma is complicated. I think more about kamma is in > the forest rather than in the hand of The Buddha that The Buddha told > his disciples regarding what he preached. ... S: It's true. We can never 'work out' the intricacies and it's pointless to ever try. However, I'd say it has been helpful for me to appreciate the difference between ordinary, common kilesa (defilements) in a day and really serious kamma patha. Some people are afraid to smile or laugh because they know it's akusala, but being so concerned about oneself or such relatively harmless states that don't hurt others can lead to unnatural behaviours and more attachment to oneself, I think. I'd be glad to hear any more of your (or anyone else's) comments. Metta, Sarah ========= 43107 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > Sarah contiuned regarding Tiger Wood: ... S: I know you're also discussing these threads with Jon, but I hope you don't mind if I continue too:-). <...> > Htoo: Hmmm. I might have been wrong. But I see it as universal. I > came out of Buddhism and just see with natural eyes and neutral eyes. ... S: I'm not sure what natural and neutral eyes are:-/ .... > > You may deny this. But may I present here. > > In a book written by Professor Mehn Tin Mon learning literature is > simless and I think he wrote something about learing and those 8 > mahakusala cittas. .... S: Does this mean that if we spend an hour learning literature or science or even studying Abhidhamma, that all the javana cittas for this period of time are mahakusala? Does this make any sense? What about the many, many moments of experiencing objects throught the 5 sense doors followed by their many mind door processes even while we study? In fact, of course, there can't be any study without lots of seeing of visible objects and 'processing'. As I said, I think that unless any of the javana cittas are concerned with dana, sila or bhavana, i.e rooted in alobha, adosa and possibly amoha, then they must be rooted in moha and usually lobha or dosa. I look forward to your comments with your abhidhamma understanding. ... > > You may argue those cittas which arise while learning are lobha muula > cittas. ... S: Very, very common. Also just moha (ignorance) and sometimes low level dosa too, such as when one can't turn the page easily or one makes a mistake on the computer, hears a loud noise or has a little bodily discomfort and so on. Does one mind any interruption, such as the telephone? Easy to see the attachment followed by the dosa. When I once told K.Sujin that I like to have a quiet spell each day outside in the garden or by the pool, away from household chores and the telephone, for reading and reflecting, she just answered 'attachment'. It was true. We may think our dhamma study is a noble activity, but this is thinking of a situation again, rather than understanding the present cittas. ... > Do you think that all cittas that arise while learning is akusala > cittas [lobha here]. > > Reading or learning invlove javana cittas. ... S: I think this should be 'involve' rather than 'in love' javana cittas;-). I think that cittas change all the time and only awareness can be aware of the present dhamma and only panna can know it for what it is. When we think of a story about reading or learning and conclude that this must be kusala or akusala, it's not what we learn from our appreciation of abhidhamma. Kusala and akusala follow each other all the time - but usually, there's far more akusala, I believe. Even now as we write about dhamma, we can test it out - kindness, friendliness, appreciation of dhamma, but also lots of attachment and ignorance in between following seeing, hearing and so on. .... > Regarding javana cittas, if they are not kiriya javana they have to > be akusala or kusala. So they at each moment or at each vithi vara > will have only one alternative of akusala and kusala. ... S: Yes. So if it's not seeing or hearing and not metta or karuna or dana or satipatthana, for example, what is it right now? .... > > Did Newton have akusala cittas when he discovered the gravity because > of deep thought? ... S: Again, this is a situation - but anytime there isn't kusala, it must be akusala. Is concentrating on gravity or on mathmatical models kusala or akusala most the time? Of course, this doesn't mean we shouldn't follow such activities, but understand the various dhammas better for what they are, rather than what we'd like them to be. <....> [Thanks to Nina for picking up the comments about micha-sati] ... > Htoo: Thanks for your all response on behalf of all members. I said > this because there are many intellectual people here who may think > that Htoo has a big ego. And some even said off-line that I was > selling in the name of The Buddha. But as a very active moderator you > will know that there are less than 100 active members. Some passive > members remind me off-line to keep continuing and not to take care of > any attacks. .... S: :-) No need to think of 'attacks' or oneself too much. Remember the water drops on the lotus leaf. A lot of people find it really hard to see any benefit in detailed Abhidhamma study and don't see it as the Buddha's teaching as an old member just wrote. I think this is all quite understandable. There's room for all views or understandings. In any case, I greatly appreciate your threads and our discussions together. I'm always glad when others join in too. Metta, Sarah ========= 43108 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 11:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Hi Charles, I wrote: ------------ > Even on DSG, people have said, "Sure, there is no eternal self or atman, but there is a temporary self!" ------------- And you replied: ---------------- > YES! This is sutra teaching (what the Buddha dictated). The Buddha even rename his, temp self, to Taga... and the Buddha. ---------------- I agree that the Buddha taught the existence of the five khandhas. In his case they were conventionally called 'the Buddha' just as, in my case, they are conventionally called, Ken H. By teaching the existence of the five khandhas, the Buddha dispelled the wrong view, "Nothing exists," and he also dispelled the wrong view, "The self exists." If we examine the five khandhas with right view, we will see each of them is devoid of self. And if we consider them collectively, it is the same. Even though we refer to a particular set of five khandhas as you or me (etc.) there is no you or me outside of the momentary existence of those present five khandhas. You wrote about the Theravada Abhidhamma: ------------------ C: > No, I learned it then move on. I have also looked at the Mahayana sutra and Abhidhamma. I have even look at Tibetan ..., and psychology and sociology. ------------------ I see. But that doesn't explain why you describe the 'Abhidhamma view' as representing the unconditioned reality. The Abhidhamma is the teaching of both kinds of absolute reality - the conditioned and the unconditioned. Also, it doesn't explain why you have not learnt the Pali terms (or the Sanskrit terms) for the individual dhammas. The Pali terms remind us of when we are talking about a reality as distinct from an illusion (a concept). For example, Htoo has just explained why the word 'birth' is inadequate for describing the reality, 'patisandhi.' 'Birth' involves the concept of a baby leaving the womb, whereas patisandhi is just one fleeting moment of consciousness. ------------ C: > Please remember, the Abhidhamma was not dictated by the Buddha, it was developed by learned monks, we like to believe they were Arhants, and they know all there is to know. ------------ According to the version I prefer, the Buddha taught Abhidhamma in full to the devas (in a deva realm) and then he taught it in brief to Sariputta. Sariputta, on hearing it in brief, understood it in full. He then taught it to his students and it became memorised in the same way as the suttas. ---------------------- C: > It is-not entirely consistent with the sutras. There are concepts in the adhidhamma that are not in the sutras (e.g., rebirth- consciousness). The Abhidhamma was an attempted to rival the Vedas (the science in Hinduism). ---------------------- I have not heard that before (about rebirth consciousness). Remember, the Buddha taught that conditioned reality was the five khandhas. So, when he said [in the suttas or elsewhere] that rebirth was real, he could only have been referring to a particular, momentary arising of the five khandhas. ----------------------------------------- C: > Some Buddhist believe the view of no-existing-self is dangerously misguided. It removes the need for the 8-fold path, especially morality. Historically there were too types of people that were enilist (1. criminals and the wealthy; 2. some groups of recluses that were waiting for the body to die -- they saw this place as "hell" i.e., samsara.) ----------------------------------------- May I suggest that you are not recognising the absolute reality of conditioned dhammas? When you accept that dhammas really do exist, I think you will no longer equate "no self" with "no existence." --------------- C: > I know the teachings on desire. I also studied what the Buddha went through to become "E." Also the basis on Mahayana Buddhism if Bodicita. Just because the universe is made up of conditioned dramas does not mean that nothing exist. Ask your self, "Do the conditions exist?" ------------- Do you see what I mean? You see a link between "only conditioned dhammas" and "nothing exists," but there is no such link. My answer would be, "Of course, the conditions exist! They exist because there are conditioned dhammas, and those conditioned dhammas are conditioning other dhammas to exist." I think (not sure) it was Nagarjuna who caused conditionality to be mistaken for non-existence. According to his heterodoxy, conditioned namas and rupas were just 'ideas' thought up by the Buddha to explain what was happening in [what Nagarjuna saw as] "a seamless flux" of experience. -------------- C: > To talk of emptiness is not the same as nothing. Emptiness implies that there must be a container, something. -------------- Exactly so! And there really are things that exist and that are mistaken for "containers of self." They are the namas and rupas of the five khandhas and Nibbana. ---------------------- C: > MY TAKE ON NOT-self: There is no-self that exist on its own (requires nothing), that is unchanging, uncompounded, or permanent, no thing, not you, not me. Our existence is relative, the self is changing, compounded, and impermanent, and nothing can change that. ----------------------- I agree with that, but it is not quite watertight enough for my liking. It still allows for the idea of something that persists from moment to moment. Would you agree that there is no physical phenomenon (dhamma) that exists for more than (let's say by way of approximation) one billionth of a second? And that there is no mental phenomenon that lasts for more than one seventeen-billionth of a second? (As explained in the Abhidhamma, some rupas last seventeen times as long as consciousness.) Ken H 43109 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Cummings" wrote: > > Hi Robert > > I think the link I posted was incomplete, should be: > > http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php? > act=ST&f=42&t=28347&st=0#entry298058 > > You may have to paste together broken strings. > > I could post the text here if you'd like? > > Joe C > =========== That would be great Joe. Robert 43110 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thanks for your contributions, see you later. Hi Hugo & Azita, Hugo, thank you for letting me share your letters on list. I loved the dragon story. Someday you must let your child meet Dan’s. He has some similar ‘Mara’ stories. (I think you could check ‘Mara’ in U.P. next time round). And no, I wouldn’t just tell a child there is no dragon (or mom or dad or me for that matter;-)). Believe it or not, a large chunk of my working life has been with children and teenagers referred by schools which are unable to help with specific problems. .... H>I say that IF "you" see a self, then "you" > have bigger problems than one who doesn't see a self, thus "you" can't > "use" the same "approach" than the people who don't see a self. > That's why I keep bringing examples of little kids and alcoholics > because they see "less clearly" than you or me and "they" strongly > cling to a self, at least in these matters. .... S: We can’t talk about dhammas and anatta to many people, but friends on DSG like yourself are unusual because there is some appreciation that the clue to understanding life lies in the understanding of these dhammas. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be here!! I just read in a commentary: “Thus personality view is abandoned by the defining of mentality-materiality (nama-rupa).” If a child is about to burn himself on the stove, you may just have to say ‘Don’t touch!’. Likewise, if a friend says he’s only here for one more post, I may just call out ‘Learn about namas and rupas – they’re anatta!’. Anyway, I’d like to quote a passage here from ‘Dispeller’, an Abhidhamma commentary on ‘order of teaching’. I meant to post it for Azita before, because it also touches on a question she’s raised about the khandhas and why vedana and sanna get their own khandha: From ‘Classification of the Aggregates, 130: “...firstly, ‘order of arising’ is not appropriate here because the aggregates do not arise in the order of their successive determingin....nor ‘order of abandoning’....nor ‘order of practice’......nor ‘order of plane’ because feeling, etc are included in all four planes. But 'order of teaching' is appropriate. "For there are those people who, while teachable, have fallen to assuming a self among the five aggregates through these not having been divided up; and the Blessed One is desirous of releasing them from assumption of a self by getting them to see how the compact mass is resolved; and being desirous of their welfare, first, for the purpose of their easy grasping, he taught the gross materiality aggregate which is the object of the eye and so on; and after that the feeling which feels the materiality experienced as desirable and undesirable; [then] the perception which grasps the aspects of the object of feeling thus: ‘What he feels, that he perceives’ (M i 293); [then] formations which form by means of perception; [and lastly] consciousness which is their support and which dominates them.” ***** H:> See the difference? > > My suspicion is that you forgot what is to behave controlled by a > self, thus you only advocate just "watching namas and rupas arise and > cease". ... S: I think we all have the illusion of behaving as controlled by a self much of the time. What I advocate is not watching anything but understanding these namas and rupas (aka the 5 khandhas) when they appear or present themselves without any special focus or watching or idea of doing anything. A little further on in the text abovd, we have a good hospital simile for Azita, which I may have given before: “ ‘As to simile’. Here the materiality aggregated (as object) of clinging is like a sickroom (gilaanasaalaa) because it is the dwelling place, as the physical basis, door and object, for the sick man, [namely] the consciousness aggregate of clinging. The feeling aggregate of clinging is like the sickness because it afflicts. The perception aggregate of clinging is like the provocation of the sickness because of the presence of feeling associated with greed, etc being due to the perception of sense desires, etc. The formations aggregate of clinging is like having recourse to what is unsuitable because it is that which gives rise to feeling which is the sickness.” ***** S:In other words, the reason we study more about these various dhammas and look at them from different angles is in order that awareness may arise and be aware of them as mere phenomena or elements. And that’s it. No self to watch, do or control in any way. <...> H:> In summary it all depends on what is your level of understanding, what > you can see, what you can do. ... S: Yes. First we need to clearly understand in theory what is nama and what is rupa. Seeing is nama, visible object is rupa. No one can see or not see. .... H:> But don't tease me into coming back to discuss, otherwise Nina may die > from a laugh attack. :-) ... S: :-) I followed your discussion with Jon – I know he’d be very glad to continue anytime. Please just post in your own time. I know Nina will always be glad to see you around. Let her have a laugh! We can see how conditions change all the time. Sometimes I plan to write to one friend and it gets interrupted or I plan to take a break , but post anyway. You can just think of it as an act of kindness to us when you post again under your own name here. (Really, that’s not a tease:-)). No need to set yourself any rules on it. Sometime, you may like to look at posts in U.P. under ‘Abhidhamma-beginners’ and ‘Anatta & Control’. I’ll be glad of any feedback, *but no hurry*. Thanks again for keeping in touch and giving me your comments and dragon story:-). Metta, Sarah ======= 43111 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina Van Gorkom Hi Hasituppada, I was very glad to see you posting after a long break. --- hasituppada wrote: > > I had been away for some time and I was not connected to Internet. > On my return I found my Yahoo account submerged with over 30000 > messages. I had no time to read them all ,but I did read some of > Nina's. As always they are blossoms of fragrant Dhamma. There is > n't the slightest note of impatience, anger, irritation or fatigue. > She answers all however they pose the questions. Her answers are a > beam of light to illuminate that which is clouded with darkness. ... S: Jon and I were both very happy to read your appreciation of all her hard work here. 'blossoms of fragrant Dhamma' - very nice. There's always bound to be praise and blame as Htoo mentioned, but I rejoice in your kind words. Are you still living in France. Have you been on a retreat, I wonder? (Only say if you wish to, of course.) ... > Even the Buddha maintained silence when he was asked the same > question over and over again. > > During the period I was away, her several pages of Abhidhamma in > Daily life, kept Company with The Manual of Abhdhamma of Venerable > Narada Maha Thera on my work table. I like those Chapters from her > book The Abhidhamma in Daily life ( which I had copied from her > website) that elucidates in very readable simple language the > deepest of the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. ... S: Good book companions. Can we encourage you to share any paragraphs or comments you found especially helpful? Do you see the Abhidhamma as being relevant to 'practice' and the development of satipatthana/vipassana now? Presently I'm posting from her text,'Cetasikas' - you may like to follow and add comments on this too. In any case, it's good to know you're around again. Thanks for posting. Metta, Sarah ==== 43112 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma challenge Hi Joe, good you unlurk. op 10-03-2005 06:19 schreef Joe Cummings op joe@j...: > On another Buddhism-related online forum I post to on occasion, a > member has challenged the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > Here's the link in case anyone here would like to respond (I hope > someone will!) N: There have been many posts on the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, especially from Sarah, see U.P. under Abhidhamma. No need to repeat those posts. I would like another approach. The fact that you or someone else asks this question must have a cause. Some people do not quite understand what the Abhidhamma is, they merely think of texts. Do you have a topic of Abhdidhamma that interests you? It would be nice if you could give some input on this. It is more important to know what interests you. We all have different backgrounds, we have accumulated different inclinations and thus, people react differently to the Abhidhamma. Different accumulated condiitons. Ah, before I know it I have landed now on the Abhidhamma with this sentence. Nina. 43113 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? -Kel, Suan & Htoo Hi Kel,Suan & Htoo, Kel, thank you for posting an extract from Ledi Sayadaw's Dipani. I'd like to discuss some of the comments a little with you any perhaps anyone else from Myanmar in particular. --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Tell you what, I'm just going to quote Ledi sayadaw with excerpts > from his Dipani. You can find the full link below: > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6b.htm > > Of the four [satipatthana], if mindfulness or attention is firmly > established on a part of the body, such as on out-breath and in- > breath, it is tantamount to attention being firmly established **on > all things**. This is because the ability to place one's attention > on any object at one's will has been acquired. .... S: Could one of you give me a textual reference (Tipitaka/ancient commentaries) for this to look at/discuss further, so we can consider the meaning. .... > > 'Firmly established' means, if one desires to place the attention on > out-breath and in-breath for an hour, one's attention remains firmly > fixed on it for that period. If one wishes to do so for two hours, > one's attention remains firmly fixed on it for two hours. There is > no occasion when the attention becomes released from its object on > account of the instability of thought-conception (vitakkha). > > Why is it incumbent on us to firmly establish the mind without fail > on any object such as the out-breath and the in-breath? It is > because it is necessary for us to gather and control the six vinnana, > [44] which have been drifting tempestuously and untrained throughout > the past inconceivably long and beginningless samsara (round of > rebirths). .... S: When we read comments in the texts about anatta and no control, such as the following from the Vism, do you see any conflict? Vism XX1.48: "He sees all formations as not-self for the following reasons: because they are alien, empty, vain, ownerless, with no Overlord, with none to wield power over them, and so on." Of course, there are many other such quotes. ... > I shall make it clear. The mind is wont to flit about from one to > another of the six objects of the senses which live at the > approaches of the six sense-doors.[45] > > In this world, persons who are not insane, but who are normal and > have control over their minds, resemble such a mad person having no > control over his mind when it comes to the matter of samatha and > vipassana. ... S: Do we ever have any control over our minds? Isn't this the illusion? Isn't the aim of vipassana in particular to understand the conditioned nature of dhammas rather than 'control over the mind'? Vism XX 103: "The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to condition owing to his discovery that states have no curiosity and that their existence depends upon conditions." Suan and Htoo, I don't know if you were following, but Kel was mentioning the very high regard with which Ledi Sayadaw is held by all in Myanmar. Now we referred in passing to his large number of criticisms of the Abhidhammatthavibhavini by Sumangala, the main commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha which some of us are so delighted to have access to. Do you have any comments? Metta, Sarah ===== 43114 From: Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 0:29am Subject: Initial Hello Hi, I'm Lisa, I find out about this groups from forwarded email of a friend. I am interested in this group because I am a Buddhist and still learning about this life. Also, I am interested about the Buddhism community outside Indonesia, where I live. There should be some good different thoughts. Lisa Herawati 43115 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Larry >Regarding distinguishing between color and seeing there is a problem. It >isn't like distinguishing between feeling and intention. When we >distinguish between feeling and intention it's easy. Now we experience >feeling, and now we experience intention. They are two distinctly >different experiences. > >Can we say in the same way "now we experience eye consciousness, and now >we experience color"? For one thing, is consciousness itself a distinct >experience? Can eye consciousness, by itself without an object, be an >object of consciousness? Secondly, how is color experienced distinctly >different from consciousness? Experience is consciousness, so how can we >experience something that is other than experience? In other words, how >can we distinguish the two, rupa and consciousness, in consciousness? We >can't go outside of consciousness and verify rupa with something other >than consciousness, unless we use concept. Rupa is, by definition, other >than nama. > > These are good questions. First, just to clarify, I assume you are talking here about the experience of rupa by consciousness that 'knows' the rupa in some sense or other--for example, consciousness accompanied by awareness or insight. Mere *experience* of rupa occurs at every moment of sense-door consciousness, and this experience is direct and unadulterated. As I understand it, the experience of rupa by consciousness accompanied by awareness or insight, if it occurs, occurs in the moments immediately after the sense-door consciousness has fallen away. Thus if there is a period of awareness of, say, visible object, the actual scenario is one of repeated moments of seeing consciousness experiencing visible object, interspersed with moments of (consciousness accompanied by) sati/panna that have the immediately past visible object (rather than the seeing consciousness) as object. When there is a period of awareness of seeing consciousness, the scenario is the same except that it is the immediately past seeing consciousness rather than the visible object that is taken as object of the consciousness with sati/panna. Actually, the situation of awareness of feeling and intention is no different, since both these mental factor accompany every moment of consciousness. It is just that at some moments one of them appears to the succeeding consciousness and at other moments the other appears to the succeeding consciousness, and their relative prominence as perceived by us depends on the relative frequency of those 2 sets of experience. Does this sound feasible? Jon 43116 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions Hi, Joop (and James) While I agree generally with James' reply about the important difference between holding opinions about things and the knowledge that comes from direct experience, I'm not so sure that the sutta you quote really says what you say it does ('no opinions'). I think it's more about the danger of clinging to opinions or ideas, having preconceived notions, etc. For example, it talks about <>, <>, wrong view about becoming or not, etc. I have my doubts as to whether the ideal of having no opinions is really attainable. Jon Joop wrote: >Dear all > >Not clinging to views is one of the central topics of the Teachings, >especially not clinging to any doctrine of a self. >Of course one should not keep 'false' views; but in some suttas the >Buddha states that one should not keep any view, any opinion at all. ... > > >Supreme - Paramatthaka Sutta (Sutta-Nipata, IV-5) > >When dwelling on views as "supreme," >a person makes them the utmost thing in the world, >&, from that, calls all others inferior >and so he's not free from disputes. >When he sees his advantage >in what's seen, heard, sensed, >or in precepts & practices, >seizing it there he sees all else as inferior. > >That, too, say the skilled, >is a binding knot: that in dependence on which >you regard another as inferior. >So a monk shouldn't be dependent >on what's seen, heard, or sensed, >or on precepts & practices; >nor should he conjure a view in the world >in connection with knowledge or precepts & practices; >shouldn't take himself to be "equal"; >shouldn't think himself >inferior or superlative. > >Abandoning what he had embraced, >abandoning self, not clinging, >he doesn't make himself dependent >even in connection with knowledge; >doesn't follow a faction >among those who are split; >doesn't fall back on any view whatsoever. > >One's who isn't inclined toward either side >—becoming or not-, here or beyond— >who has no entrenchment >when considering what's grasped among doctrines, >hasn't the least preconceived perception >with regard to what's seen, heard, or sensed. >By whom, with what, >should he be pigeonholed here in the world? >—this brahmin who hasn't adopted views. > >They don't conjure, don't yearn, >don't adhere even to doctrines. >A brahmin not led by precepts or practices, >gone to the beyond >—Such— doesn't fall back. > > 43117 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Initial Hello Hi, Lisa Welcome to the group from me. Thanks for introducing yourself. I hope you'll find the discussion interesting. Please feel free to come in on any thread, or bring up your own topics for discussion. Jon lisa_herawati@j... wrote: >Hi, > >I'm Lisa, I find out about this groups from forwarded email of a friend. I >am interested in this group because I am a Buddhist and still learning >about this life. Also, I am interested about the Buddhism community >outside Indonesia, where I live. There should be some good different >thoughts. > >Lisa Herawati > > 43118 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi, Joe Nice to see you back. As is often the way with these things, I was thinking about you just the other day. Please feel free to post the text here. Jon Joe Cummings wrote: >Hi Robert > >I think the link I posted was incomplete, should be: > >http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php? >act=ST&f=42&t=28347&st=0#entry298058 > >You may have to paste together broken strings. > >I could post the text here if you'd like? > >Joe C > > 43119 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi again, Jon - > > One further comment. I had written "My main reason for my perspective, aside from aesthetic preference, is pragmatic, because I have no basis for knowing the existence of unobserved rupas." > Now, I anticipate that you might well ask "Well, then, how is it that you accept the idea of a group of rupas arising together (experientially) yet with all but one unobserved?" > Actually, it hadn't occurred to me ;-)) > In reply I would say the following: 1) I don't know this group business to be a fact, but 2) Assuming that it is a fact, I would still consider the entire group to arise, as it were, "on the stage of consciousness", but with only one rupa sufficiently intense to register as objective support for consciousness. In this regard, I also would presume that a Buddha (if not an "ordinary" arahant) would be actually aware of *all* the rupas in a group. I presume this under the assumption that a Buddha would actually *know*, by direct insight, the fact of rupa-groups, and not just by inductive or deductive inference. > > I think your presumption about the Buddha's knowledge is a reasonable one, and in fact I think it goes for much of what we read in the texts -- things are explained that are never going to be verified by our own direct experience but which is information we need to have in order not to reject out of hand as impossible things other things that we would have a hard time accounting for. (An example of this kind of information would be the disappearance of the teaching and the appearance of a Buddha who had made a vow in the presence of a previous Buddha.) > Jon, it would, of course, be unfair for me to write this and require that the conversation go no further at present. So please feel free to reply! But forgive me please, if I don't then continue the thread further at this time. I don't want to allow myself to drawn back into the intellectual eddy that I got myself into before. > No obligation of course, and I recognise the syndrome myself ;-)). I agree about the need to keep in mind the value of discussing in a way that is useful and helpful, and not for any other reason. Easy to lose sight of at times , I find ;-)) Jon 43120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Larry and Jon, May I butt in, just one point. I think the topic is very essential, it concerns the first stage of insight. op 10-03-2005 02:00 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Can we say in the same way "now we experience eye consciousness, and now > we experience color"? For one thing, is consciousness itself a distinct > experience? Can eye consciousness, by itself without an object, be an > object of consciousness? N: eye consciousness has qualitate qua an object, otherwise it would not be citta. It experiences visible object or color. This eye-consciousness or seeing falls away and than afterwards, in another process, citta with awareness of the characteristic of seeing can arise. It all occurs extremely fast. ... snipped, but then you mention my name. L: I suspect Nina would say panna can penetrate this whole and "know" rupa directly, > apart from 5-door consciousness. N: There can be awareness of one object at a time, sometimes of a rupa such as colour, sometimes of a nama such as feeling or seeing. We cannot predict which object appears to sati. But there is bound to be considering and thinking, more than direct awareness. It is important to understand what can be the object of sati: a nama or a rupa. L: But it seems to me the medium is still consciousness (whatever that is) so rupa would still be "known" as an experience, in other words, a consciousness. Consciousness is knowing > and there is no panna without consciousness. N: It is not so complicated. No need to think about which consciousness it is and how long it is past, etc. Of course paññaa arises with a citta, another citta, in another process after the seeing, but it is all like a flash of lightning. You have not even time to worry about which citta it must be. Rupa is rupa, and it is not known as a citta. Nama is nama. They have different characteristics, but it takes a long time to get familiar with their different characteristics. That is why we need so many different reminders as contained in the satipatthanasutta. Nina. 43121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi MIke, op 10-03-2005 02:12 schreef mnease op mlnease@z... > > N: We have to > hear again and again and again that nama and rupa are objects of sati and > paññaa, all objects appearing through the six doors, one at a time, also > now. > N: We have to know that sati cannot be directed to specific objects. > > M: Even when supported by jhaana? N: It is different in samatha, you are right. M quotes: N: That > sati cannot be induced. > > M: Not induced, but aroused? I'm thinking of "...[a bhikkhu] Nisidati > pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya parimukham satim upatthapetva so > satova assasati sato passasati = "Sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on > his lap, keeps is body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of > meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him."* N: It is good you bring this up, this is a point for many people. The terms induced or aroused can create misunderstandings. For samatha and for vipassana paññaa which knows the right conditions for the right results is necessary. Thus, anapanasati is not just trying to induce concentration at will, paññaa is indispensable. Pañña and sati are necessary to know precisely when there is kusala citta with calm and when lobha. Understanding has to be emphasized all the time. M: Since the Buddha > plainly says here, "...a bhikkhu...arouses mindfulness...", aren't we just > talking about different modes of expression or different methods of > explanation? Let me add that I don't think this passage is meant as an > instruction to a present-day layperson or that there really is 'a bhikkhu' > except as a designation or formation. In other words, I think that > anattataa is implicit in this and all texts (where it isn't explicit). >N: Yes, he has to know the right conditions, otherwise nobody in the world can arouse sati whenever he wants it. > N: The more one wants it the less chance for its > arising. > > M: Of course it can't arise with craving. This reminded me of an > interesting passage in PTS's Dispeller, from the Classification of the > Structure of Conditions (3) Profitable, Rooted in a Formation: > > "...994. Herein, because in a single conscious moment there is no ignorance > together with a profitable formation, therefore instead of saying that, > kusalamuula.m...("profitable root") is said because it is the root of > profitable states, as ignorance is of unprofitable states; and, because of > the absence of craving and clinging, in the place of craving, "trust" > (pasaada), which is engrossed in the object like craving is said; and in the > place of clinging, "determination", which has a strong impact is said." > > Do you think this is pertinent to the arousing of mindfulness without > craving or clinging? N: it is said of kusala citta. Passaada, this means purity and the footnote says: saddhaa, confidence. This reminds me of the passage on saddhaa in Vis. XIV, 140: Text Vis.: Its characteristic is having faith, or its characteristic is trusting. And also of the Tiika: <...the opposite of faithlessness is decision, resolution that is pure. The Tiika states that this is not the same as adhimokkha, determination, that is among the Œwhat-so-evers¹ or supplementary factors, yevapannakas, mentioned in the list of dhammas in the Dhammasangani. Here, the term resolution (adhimutti) is used to describe the manifestation of faith or confidence in wholesomeness.> This refers to the first type of mahaakusala citta with paññaa, and thus it can also pertain to the development of satipatthana. Nina. 43122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thanks for your contributions, see you later. Hi Hugo and Sarah, I agree with Sarah. I also laughed when Howard recently posted a little, inspite of his resolution, but it gets a bit silent out here. I may think: now I am too tired or it is too late for me to answer more mails, but then there are conditions and I forget completely that I am tired. Nina. op 10-03-2005 09:22 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Please just post in your own time. I know Nina will always be glad to see > you around. Let her have a laugh! We can see how conditions change all the > time. Sometimes I plan to write to one friend and it gets interrupted or > I plan to take a break , but post anyway. 43123 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 135 - Appliedthinking/Vitakka,Jotipala. Hi Mike, op 09-03-2005 23:34 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: By the way, is vicaara necessarily conditioned by > immediately previous vicaara? Since vitakka and vicaara each last only a > moment, their difference is hard to understand otherwise. I thought maybe, > disappearence and contiguity? N:Sampaticchanacitta which is accompanied by vitakka and vicaara follows upon one of the five sense-cognitions that are without them. The sampaticchanacitta conditions the following santiranacitta by way of anantara-paccaya, samanatarapaccaya, absence condition, disaoppearance-condition. When we say citta, we also include the accompanying cetasikas. But I do not see this as a means to know their difference. First the difference between nama and rupa has to be realized. It is not sure that everybody will know the difference between vitakka and vicaara. > N: In fact the Bodhisatta must have been aware of them, how otherwise > would he realize their presence? > > M: Of course--this awareness would have been after the fact though, I > think--in > reviewing. Or do you think these were cases of cittas with awareness taking > immediately fallen-away vitakkas as objects? > > N: I think both cases. Otherwise he could not acquire tender insight. N: I would like to add: one cannot count how immediate awareness of an object is. Its characteristic can appear to sati sampajañña, but this can be in a following process, processes of cittas follow upon each other very fast. Awareness in vipassanaa is not reviewing by thinking about a reality. Nina. 43124 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Hi Sarah and Hott, excellent reminder, even for just now! Nina. op 10-03-2005 08:26 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > I think that cittas change all the time and only awareness can be aware of > the present dhamma and only panna can know it for what it is. When we > think of a story about reading or learning and conclude that this must be > kusala or akusala, it's not what we learn from our appreciation of > abhidhamma. Kusala and akusala follow each other all the time - but > usually, there's far more akusala, I believe. > > Even now as we write about dhamma, we can test it out - kindness, > friendliness, appreciation of dhamma, but also lots of attachment and > ignorance in between following seeing, hearing and so on. > .... 43125 From: nina Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Text Vis.: 'Non-delusion' has the characteristic of penetrating [things] according to their individual essences, N: yatthaasabhavo: according to their own (distinct) nature. The Tiika explains that amoha (or paññaa) penetrates all dhammas according to their own nature. Text Vis.: or it has the characteristic of sure penetration, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilful archer. Tiika: sure penetration, penetration without fail. Text Vis.: Its function is to illuminate the objective field, like a lamp. N: Illumination of the object means, the destruction of the darkness of delusion which conceals that, as the Tiika explains. Text Vis. : It is manifested as non-bewilderment, like a guide in a forest. N: It is the opposite to delusion with regard to the object. It penetrates the characteristic of the object that appears, it knows it as it is. text Vis.: The three should be regarded as the roots of all that is profitable. **** Understanding is a controlling faculty, an indriya, in the sense of predominance since it overcomes ignorance (Atthasalini I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 122) It exercises government over the associated dhammas (the citta and cetasikas it accompanies) by the characteristic of vision, that is, the realization of the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. The Atthasalini states further on (in the same section) that understanding has as characteristic illuminating and understanding. It states (123) that just as a clever surgeon knows which food is suitable and which is not, understanding knows states as "moral or immoral, serviceable or unserviceable, low or exalted, black or Pure..." Understanding is indispensable for the development of samatha. If it is not known when kusala citta with calm arises and when akusala citta with attachment to calm, samatha cannot be developed. Right understanding of realities, samma-di.t.thi, is a factor of the Eightfold Path which has to be developed together with the other factors of the eightfold Path so that it can penetrate the four noble Truths. The object of right understanding which is not lokuttara, supramundane, but "lokiya", mundane, is the nama or rupa appearing at the present moment. The object of right understanding which is lokuttara is nibbaana. As we read in the Visuddhimagga and Tiika, delusion conceals the true nature of dhammas, but paññaa illuminates it. When wrong view, di.t.thi arises, there is also moha, delusion. Moha is ignorant of dhammas and wrong view interpretes the dhammas that are experienced in the wrong way, as lasting and as self. Through direct mindfulness and understanding of the dhamma that appears at the present moment, its characteristic can be known as it really is. The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga, Ch 12, § 525) gives many synonyms of sampajañña, here translated as awareness, such as: In the same section it quotes the text about the bhikkhu who is mindful and aware, when approaching, departing, looking ahead, looking around, bending or stretching,... eating, drinking, chewing tasting, etc. This reminds us to develop satipa.t.thaana, the only way leading to the destruction of darkness and the illumination of objects so that their true nature can be penetrated. We are bound to be absorbed in the situations of our daily life which may cause distress, but through paññaa all such moments can be seen as impersonal elements arsing because of conditions. **** Nina. 43126 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo Dear Sarah and Htoo, I remember an example, given by Kh Sujin, of weak akusala citta that is not akusala kamma: just putting sugar in one's tea. We also should think of samalobha, ordinary lobha, and visama lobha, lobha that is more harmful. I have seen this in a commentary. Sama means even, visama: uneven, contrary. Nina. op 10-03-2005 07:54 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > We can never 'work out' the intricacies and it's pointless > to ever try. However, I'd say it has been helpful for me to appreciate the > difference between ordinary, common kilesa (defilements) in a day and > really serious kamma patha. Some people are afraid to smile or laugh > because they know it's akusala, but being so concerned about oneself or > such relatively harmless states that don't hurt others can lead to > unnatural behaviours and more attachment to oneself, I think. 43127 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 1. Hi Mike, op 09-03-2005 23:26 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: > Adosa with regard to an object >> that is not a living being can be described as patience. There can be >> patience with regard to unpleasant objects such as heat, cold, or bodily >> pain. > > Thanks, I hadn't heard this before. Is this synonymous with 'khanti'? I'd > never made a connection between the root adosa and khanti. N: Yes. There may be irritation or annoyance about any object, also a person or concept such as the wheather. But instead of annoyance there can be endurance of whta is unpleasant, or patience. Kh. Sujin explained to us that there is also patience when there is non-attachment to a pleasant object. When there is viriya for kusala there is also khanti. But khanti is not a specific cetasika. Nina. 43128 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:28am Subject: Re: Initial Hello --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, lisa_herawati@j... wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm Lisa, I find out about this groups from forwarded email of a friend. I > am interested in this group because I am a Buddhist and still learning > about this life. Also, I am interested about the Buddhism community > outside Indonesia, where I live. There should be some good different > thoughts. > > Lisa Herawati > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Lisa, Welcome to the group. As Jon advised you can start your own post and you can follow or reply any thread on the list. Like other religions, Buddhism may have religious implications like ceremonies and their accompaniments. Unlike other religions, true Buddhism has true taste. You may encounter that there have been many sects of Buddhism. But there was only one Buddha. So try to taste true Buddhism rather than named Buddhisms. With Metta, Htoo Naing 43129 From: nanapalo Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:46am Subject: RE: [dsg] Initial Hello Hi Lisa, Welcome to this group. You can start with your subject or involve in other's subject. Kindly please don’t hesitate to do this. Metta, selamat -----Original Message----- From: lisa_herawati@j... [mailto:lisa_herawati@j...] Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:29 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Initial Hello Hi, I'm Lisa, I find out about this groups from forwarded email of a friend. I am interested in this group because I am a Buddhist and still learning about this life. Also, I am interested about the Buddhism community outside Indonesia, where I live. There should be some good different thoughts. Lisa Herawati 43130 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:50am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Cummings" > wrote: > > > > Hi - It has been a long time since I posted on DSG, though I have > > 'lurked' here now and again. > > > > On another Buddhism-related online forum I post to on occasion, a > > member has challenged the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > > Here's the link in case anyone here would like to respond (I hope > > someone will!) > > > > http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28366&st=0 > > > > Keep up the good work. > > > > Joe > ==== > Good to see you again Joe, > The link seems not to be working? > There are so many challenges to Abhidhamma, even from early times. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Joe, Your link is not working. Htoo 43131 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Hi Robert > > I could post the text here if you'd like? > > Joe C > > =========== > That would be great Joe. > Robert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Joe C, Post it. There will be discussions. Htoo 43132 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:09am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > Hi, Sarah Forgive me for taking another four weeks to reply on the thread, I sort of felt I couldn't hold my own or express my ideas and hold my own ground, (never mind the extreme mischief mode it seemed my posts here were in) it is a continuing problem for me but the past few days I think I've had some more well-being and clarity and so I think I can get back into the swing of things. Let's see. > > So how much indeed of this awareness arises naturally? I can (or > > have been able to in this past) go from sitting at my computer on IRC > > to thinking I should cultivate awareness or mindfulness, I guess > > without idea of 'me' doing it, but sitting on my pillow or meditation > > cushion and practising mindfulness. > …. > S: I think we can only say that our lives, everthing we find important are > merely these conditioned dhammas – namas and rupas, regardless of whether > there is a lot or a little awareness arising, whether we're siting at the > computer, thinking about awareness or sitting on a meditation cushion. In > other words, there's no need to work out the `best' time or situation, > because this is just thinking and our interest is with the `study of > dhammas', rather than the `study of situations'. Right, everything is indeed reliant on causes and conditions, but I am thinking here that we don't have to be quite so passive in waiting for them to arise. From what I am reading the way to know defilements or nama and rupa is to be mindful of them, well, I am asking now, what kinds of causes do you think can bring up sati? I have said that intention for it along with a few other causes can be sufficient, but see more below. > ….. > > Right, well, until we eradicte deeper views of self, can't there be > > some right practise, while superficial views of self are still there? > …. > S: Different moments. When there is `right practise' (i.e moments of > satipatthana), there's no idea of self. Of course the lurking tendency is > always there. OK, so what type of wrong view are we looking at here? Certainly not wrong view as described as one of the ten unwholesome action, but still a wrong view holding us back from seeing the true nature of present nama and rupa, right? Like a wrong view accompanying a citta, yes? > …. > > > As for `Sarah's book'. Of course I often think of `Sarah's book'. > > This can > > > be with or without wrong view of self however;-) > > > > So do you ever acquire any goodness when you open "Sarah's book'? > …. > S: Good and bad states arise rapidly in succession. None of them are > acquired by any self. Just conditioned dhammas. No need to attach to the > good and mind about the bad… > …. > > Would you be willing to accept that after reading the Dhamma which > > specifically instructed one to do so, 'Andrew' has intentionally > > tried to be mindful of his body and thought procecesses and > > succeeded, and at the end of the day felt a huge burden lifted off of > > him, sort of the opposite of that ever-present hole that most people > > try to fill with a person, a goal, or possessions? And that when > > answering the telephone, there was more attention to be put on the > > receiver or what words were going to be said? > …. > S: This is difficult. Let me put it this way, I think there can be all > sorts of great benefits from following all sorts of instructions to focus > on breathing, sensations in the body and so on. So there may be all the > results you mention. Indeed, I have interests myself in yoga, breathing > methods,Chinese healing systems etc etc , but I don't see any intentional > mindfulness as you describe in my reading of Dhamma which simply helps us > to understand conditioned dhammas as anicca, dukkha and ANATTA. So the > kind of attention or mindfulness you are referring to here is different > from the development of satipatthana, as I understand it. The Buddha described mindful awareness as one of the steps in the gradual training, going along with guarding the sense doors, morality, and contentment. On my mindfulness walks (basically one main aspect of my practise) it is just this mindfulness that is supposed to see the true nature of things. How, now, does this differ from the type of mindfulness of realities that you know, and if it is the same, sati, would you be willing to accept that it has come about through the causes of intention to be mindful, of reading a book with instructions to be mindful, describing mindfulness? As for the three characteristics, I gained some direct vision of them in physical realities from a 20 minute sitting meditation session, not sati, as one would think.. Mysterious, huh? > …. > > And that all this was done just as scripture instructed one to do so, > > and this mindfulness lasted into a formal meditation session? > > > > Sort of similar to knowing less 'ultimate' and more 'conventional' > > realities such as mindfulness of posture, after only reading "Be > > mindful, thoroughly know, your posture, and small deportments" and > > similar text? > …. > S: I understand that the idea of posture (if taken as a reality or object > of mindfulness) is a hindrance to the understanding of dhammas. Again, the > understanding of `situations' or `positions' can never break down the idea > of self. I'm happy to discuss any texts or scriptures in more detail. > …. From the (Maha-)Satipatthana sutta, mindfulness of posture is one of the objects to be known with mindfulness. Certainly it is not an ultimate reality but there must be some benefit from it for the Buddha to instruct people to follow it. Of course, not too far after mindfulness of posture comes mindfulness of the four elements, but still, posture may.. ehh. as I've read, help one to see the selfless nature of the mind/body complex especially if it is accompanied by awareness of intention to walk (so you see for example there is intention and going, no 'self' who is doing the walking, sounds right, doesn't it?). > > > > Also, I am somewhat skeptical that just reading Dhamma conditions > > mindfulness, it seems that just reading an instruction to 'be > > mindful' is enough, and that one's own thoughts to 'be mindful' > > should work just as well. > …. > S: If there is sufficient understanding of what dhammas really are and if > there is no misunderstanding of what it means to be mindful. In truth, > even the ariyans needed to continue to hear, consider and discuss the > Dhamma. There is a sutta which talks about the path for ignorant > worldlings and continues to say it is the same for sotapannas and so on up > to arahants. We need the right kind of reminders over and over again. If I am given a sufficiently long place to walk, or sufficient hours of the day, I believe I can intentionally cultivate mindfulness of the body and to a lesser extent of the mind, like clear comprehension, along that path. Certainly the instructions to be mindful were all I needed previously to cultivate mindfulness that at least had the potential to work day after day, and brought more mindfulness when it was time to do sitting meditation. However, from my experience, I agree with you that it is probable that we need to hear or discuss dharma to stay on track for long periods of time. > …. > > So you're saying metta just has to be read about or conditioned to > > come rather than my "I must read meditations on loving-kindness to > > cultivate good amounts of metta"? Could anything else just happen to > > condition metta to arise, like realizing the need for it, or wanting > > to promote the welfare of living beings [even one's own]? > …. > S: I think the main condition is the arising of metta when there is an > opportunity (with other people around) and the gradual understanding of > the characteristic of metta at such times, so that other states like > attachment are less likely to be mistaken for it. > > When we wish to promote our own welfare, this is not metta, for example. > I've had a bit of trouble with my ankle and I realized as I was hobbling > around how much time was being spent on my welfare. But then, we were > giving out our Chinese New Year red packets to building and restarurant > staff and there was some genuine good will to others and forgetting about > *me*. We can read a lot about metta, but I think the friendliness and > helpfulness when we have a chance is most useful. Fair, there are situations that have caused me to have compassion spontaneously, however, I do believe in the idea of using loving- kindness meditations or instructions to cultivate metta. For example, one day going to the beach with my friends I continually wished for each of them "May he be well, happy, and peaceful. May he have no problems. May he have no pain." and so on. This was enough to generate metta, and, come to think of it, I have generated harmlessness that was sent out for over a mile in distance during my intial work with dharma, where I had very little or no interaction on the dharma, but was doing contemplation and reading scripture alone. > …. > > OK. Also have another question. I haven't been able to get that > > good 'study' mode going to get into CMA but I do recall that there is > > a citta or cetasika that arises when the object is 'extremely' > > desirable and I think I have experienced this recently, and, since I > > have gotten Bhikku Bodhi's "The Noble Eightfold Path" I think that my > > intention should be on renunciation instead of strong liking, greed, > > or attachment, to that. As it is, it sort of sucks me in into a > > downward spiral. > …. > S: I'm not sure I follow exactly, but whatever it is, it's gone. We don't > know what will arise:anytime by conditions and unexpectedly, but it > doesn't matter at all. Just develop more awareness, understanding and > detachment, but not by trying to do anything. Let me jump in here-- certainly trying to develop detachment is one of the goals here, as being opposed to greed or attachment, (right intention, focused on renunciation, detachment, or generosity instead of lust for sensuality, if this makes sense)-- but are you saying we should do it not by trying [intentionally]? I can't understand your statement if so. > They really are just very > fleeting dhammas – pleasant, unpleasant, good, bad or whatever. If we > attach importance to what's gone already, the present dhamma is the > attachment. > …./ > > So now, with a different perspective, do you think it would be good > > to start doing a citta study thread again? I can see I missed out on > > the large part of the cetasika study thread, but nonetheless maybe it > > would be beneficial to start one. > …. > S: I'd be glad if you'd like to start one and will certainly follow. What > do you suggest? The cetasika thread will be going on for ages, so please > join in this at any time too. It's never too late for comments or > questions. > > Anyway or sort you like would be fine. > > Ideas? > …. > S: Would you like to join in an ongoing study corner or start a new one? > Or just join in different threads? Well I kind of haven't been able to study CMA as I did earlier, and there's no great understanding to be had by trying to force it to work when it's not, but I would be interested in continuing to develop and understanding of Abhidhamma from Nina's ADL and post it here. I've read up to the sections on moha and dosa myself, but am having trouble distinguishing the two. What arises is some kind of darkness in the mind, and I'm not able to recognize what exactly it is, so I guess I can re-start posting about the book here for help on that. It should help me develop understanding or awareness of cittas or cetasikas that are present in my mind at one point or another, no? Happy March 10th! ;) -A.L. 43133 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Sarah and Htoo, I remember an example, given by Kh Sujin, of weak akusala citta that is not akusala kamma: just putting sugar in one's tea. We also should think of samalobha, ordinary lobha, and visama lobha, lobha that is more harmful. I have seen this in a commentary. Sama means even, visama: uneven, contrary. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Sarah, and All, It is better if we can detect akusala citta at its earliest points soon after the base happen [arise & pass away]. I like the explanation of 'sama' and 'visama' lobha. Kamma has different classifications. Some have potentiative power and some have reductive power and some have destructive power etc etc. Ordinary akusala may or may reveal its effect. My belief is that all akusala cittas do have kamma. And all kamma each do carry their full power till the last moment of arahatta-cuti-citta. Kamma without results may well be such ones. But unhealthy control of smile is not Dhamma even though laughing may have akusala base. With Metta, Htoo Naing 43134 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo,(Nina & Larry), > > Part 2 - thx for your prompt replies yesterday to Part 1 and another > thread. > I'd be glad to hear any more of your (or anyone else's) comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, I have replied this post under Nina's reply. With respect, Htoo Naing 43135 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, ... S: I know you're also discussing these threads with Jon, but I hope you don't mind if I continue too:-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It's OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- <...> > Htoo: Hmmm. I might have been wrong. But I see it as universal. I > came out of Buddhism and just see with natural eyes and neutral eyes. ... S: I'm not sure what natural and neutral eyes are:-/ .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In Myanmar there is a saying ''Don't look through the green glassess''. I mean here 'to look by natural eyes'. Natural eyes are unglassed eyes. So there is no judgement. Neutral eyes are also non-judgemental eyes. So they are neutral. What I said 'I came out of Buddhism' means 'all labelled Buddhisms including Theravara Buddhism'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Does this mean that if we spend an hour learning literature or science or even studying Abhidhamma, that all the javana cittas for this period of time are mahakusala? Does this make any sense? What about the many, many moments of experiencing objects throught the 5 sense doors followed by their many mind door processes even while we study? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 2 alternatives in 'kama javana cittas' if not in arahats. They are akusala and kusala. If you focus on kusala or if you deviate to kusala then you will deny that cittas that are not at the objects of dana, siila, bhavana are kusala cittas. This means 'sincerely purely learning mind' is performed by one of eight mahakusala cittas. If you focus on akusala then you may agree the proposal. That is cittas that are not in killing, stealing, sexing, lying, intoxicating are not akusala. Then you might accept 'sincerely purely learning mind' is not akusala. If not akusala then it is one of 8 mahakusala cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: In fact, of course, there can't be any study without lots of seeing of visible objects and 'processing'. As I said, I think that unless any of the javana cittas are concerned with dana, sila or bhavana, i.e rooted in alobha, adosa and possibly amoha, then they must be rooted in moha and usually lobha or dosa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have told you above. If not alobha, adosa, amoha then they must be with lobha, dosa, moha. This is logical inferrence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I look forward to your comments with your abhidhamma understanding. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually I am a practical orientated person. But for the sake of others I do discuss things from different points of view and down to grass root level of dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You may argue those cittas which arise while learning are lobha muula > > cittas. ... S: Very, very common. Also just moha (ignorance) and sometimes low level dosa too, such as when one can't turn the page easily or one makes a mistake on the computer, hears a loud noise or has a little bodily discomfort and so on. Does one mind any interruption, such as the telephone? Easy to see the attachment followed by the dosa. When I once told K.Sujin that I like to have a quiet spell each day outside in the garden or by the pool, away from household chores and the telephone, for reading and reflecting, she just answered 'attachment'. It was true. We may think our dhamma study is a noble activity, but this is thinking of a situation again, rather than understanding the present cittas. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Generally akusala are much more abundant than kusala. Learing non-religious things will invlove many javana cittas. Lobha is most common one when learning. Dosa may also arise when learning. Pure moha may also arise without lobha and dosa when learning. But what cittas are they when learning mind do not have lobha, dosa and moha? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Do you think that all cittas that arise while learning is akusala > > cittas [lobha here]. > > > > Reading or learning invlove javana cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: I think this should be 'involve' rather than 'in love' javana cittas;-). I think that cittas change all the time and only awareness can be aware of the present dhamma and only panna can know it for what it is. When we think of a story about reading or learning and conclude that this must be kusala or akusala, it's not what we learn from our appreciation of abhidhamma. Kusala and akusala follow each other all the time - but usually, there's far more akusala, I believe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I told you above, yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Even now as we write about dhamma, we can test it out - kindness, friendliness, appreciation of dhamma, but also lots of attachment and ignorance in between following seeing, hearing and so on. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. I try to meditate when reading. It is much more difficult than sitting with eyes closed. I drop big attachment at its early life and I drop big aversion at its early life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Regarding javana cittas, if they are not kiriya javana they have to > > be akusala or kusala. So they at each moment or at each vithi vara > > will have only one alternative of akusala and kusala. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: Yes. So if it's not seeing or hearing and not metta or karuna or dana or satipatthana, for example, what is it right now? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Karuna and mudita are occasional cetasika in kusala cittas. Metta or non-aversion is universal to all beautiful consciousness. Seeing and hearing are not javana cittas. Appreciation of seeing and hearing are javana cittas. As soon as appreciation arise there are javana cittas. These javana cittas are akusala or if not akusala they are kusala cittas. 'Right now' if it is not satipatthana, then it is not bhavana kusala cittas. But 'right now' if javana cittas are simless that is there is no lobha, no dosa, and no moha then they are not akusala cittas. :-) if not akusala javana they are kusala javana cittas. But these kusala javana cittas are not kamma patha. So they are not dana, sila, and bhavana. They are ordinary ones. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Did Newton have akusala cittas when he discovered the gravity because > > of deep thought? ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Again, this is a situation - but anytime there isn't kusala, it must be akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Equally 'anytime there isn't akusala, it must be kusala. :)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Is concentrating on gravity or on mathmatical models kusala or akusala most the time? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Most of the time they are akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Of course, this doesn't mean we shouldn't follow such activities, but understand the various dhammas better for what they are, rather than what we'd like them to be. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma is dhamma. We cannot put them 'you exist here and you sit there'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [Thanks to Nina for picking up the comments about micha-sati] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... > > Htoo: Thanks for your all response on behalf of all members. I said this because there are many intellectual people here who may think that Htoo has a big ego. And some even said off-line that I was selling in the name of The Buddha. But as a very active moderator you will know that there are less than 100 active members. Some passive members remind me off-line to keep continuing and not to take care of any attacks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: :-) No need to think of 'attacks' or oneself too much. Remember the water drops on the lotus leaf. A lot of people find it really hard to see any benefit in detailed Abhidhamma study and don't see it as the Buddha's teaching as an old member just wrote. I think this is all quite understandable. There's room for all views or understandings. In any case, I greatly appreciate your threads and our discussions together. I'm always glad when others join in too. Metta, Sarah ========= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your discussion and pointing out very important areas. Thanks to Jon, Nina and other who joined in. With regards, Htoo Naing 43136 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (281) Dear Dhamma Friends, If deva beings are born with all three good roots that is if they are reborn with tihetuka patisandhi cittas they have potentials to attain jhanas, maggas, and phalas if they encounter respective experts. As soon as deva beings achieve jhana there is an extra possible citta in that individual deva being. If he or she attains 1st jhana then 1st jhana rupakusala citta may arise if they practise jhana. There are more cittas if they further attain higher jhanas. But when they are going to die and they do not stay in jhana at near dying period, they will not be reborn in brahma bhumis or fine material deva realms but they will be reborn in sensuous sphere like in the same deva realm or one of other 5 deva realms or in human realm. There are many trainee deva beings that is sotapanna, sakadagams etc. And there are arahat deva beings in deva realms. Like human realm, the population of deva beings are changing. But unlike human realms there are trends like increasing or decreasing trends. In pre-Buddha time, there is sparse population of deva beings. This happen because akusala dominates kusala in human realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 43137 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread (282) Dear Dhamma Friends, Brahma realms is unique. As they all are not sensuous realms there is no sensuous attraction. There are two kinds of brahma. They are rupa brahmas or fine-material beings and arupa brahmas or non-material beings. Unlike sensuous beings there are no ghana-ppasada or nose- sensitivity, jivha-ppasada or tongue-sensitivity, and kaya-ppasada or body-sensitivity. And in arupa brahma or non-material beings there is no material thing at all. That is there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body. As soon as reborn in fine-material realm there are 4 rupa-kalapas or 4 material-aggregates. They are cakkudasaka or eye-decad, sotadasaka or ear-decad, vatthu-dasaka or heart-decad, and jivita-navaka or life- faculty-nonad. Because of these limitation in rupa dhamma that they have there are also limitation in arising of cittas. There is no citta related to smelling, tasting and touching at all. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 43138 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:11am Subject: 10 upekkhas Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 upekkhas. 1. chalangupekkha or equanimity in 6 senses 2. brahmaviharupekkha or equanimity in metta/karuna/mudita 3. bojjhangupekkha or equanimity in vipassana cetasikas 4. viriyupekkha or equanimity in equilibriating samadhi and viriya 5. sankharupekkha or equanimity in sankhara dhamma 6. vedanupekkha or equanimity in feeling 7. vipassanupekkha or equanimity in vipassana dhamma 8. tatramajjhattatupekkha or equanimity in accompanying cetasikas 9. jhanupekkha or equanimity in tatiya-jhana 10.parisuddhupekkha or equanimity in catuttha jhana With Metta, Htoo Naing 43139 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 0:08pm Subject: To Connie: BB's Article Hi Connie, Thank you for sending me "A Critical Examination of ~Naa.naviira Thera's "A Note on Pa.ticcasamuppaada"" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. At the suggestion of Sarah, and possibly because you are interested, I will give you some feedback on the article. I am not entirely finished with BB's article, and I haven't read the book by Nanavira yet, but I am finding that the points are becoming too numerous to put into a single response. This will be an initial response and more could possibly come as issues become apparent during my reading. It is my hope that this dialogue could help us both to better understand the teaching of Dependent Origination and its application to individual Buddhist practice. BB writes: "Ven. ~Naa.naviira's purpose in writing the Notes was, in his own words, "to indicate the proper interpretation of the Suttas," the key to which he believed he had discovered through an experience that he identified as the arising of the Eye of Dhamma (dhammacakkhu), that is, the attainment of stream-entry. His proposition sounds innocuous enough as it stands, until one discovers that the author sees this task as entailing nothing less than a radical revaluation of the entire Theravaada exegetical tradition… The most time-honoured explanatory tools for interpreting the Suttas, along with the venerated books from which they stem, he dismisses as "a mass of dead matter choking the Suttas." The Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the Milindapa~nha, the Visuddhimagga, the Pali Commentaries -- all come in for criticism, and the author says that ignorance of them "may be counted a positive advantage as leaving less to be unlearned." James: I am surprised that I haven't come across the writings of Nanavira before; we definitely appear to be on a similar wavelength regarding the ancient texts and in other ways! BB writes: "I will be concerned here with only one note in Ven. ~Naa.naviira's collection, his "A Note on Pa.ticcasamuppaada." This note, however, is the main pillar of Ven. ~Naa.naviira's distinctive approach to the Suttas; it is the first and longest note in the book and the most consistently radical. The Note sounds a bold challenge to the prevailing "three-life interpretation" of the twelve-factored formula of dependent arising. The traditional interpretation of this formula, expounded in full detail in the Visuddhimagga (Chapter XVII), has guided followers of mainstream Theravaada Buddhism for centuries in their understanding of this most profound and difficult principle of the Dhamma. Hence a criticism of it that claims to be validated by the Suttas themselves strikes from within at the very core of the orthodox Theravaada commentarial tradition...." James: Now it appears that BB is being the drama queen.;-) What Nanavira proposes in regards to Dependent Origination as taught by Buddhaghosa is not really that radical. First, Buddhaghosa himself realized that his interpretation of DO was questionable, as he wrote in the Visuddhimagga when introducing his analysis of DO, ""An explanation of Dependent Origination is extremely difficult," and "Now I would like to expound on the paccayakara (principle of conditionality), even though I haven't a foot to stand on, like a man stepping into a flowing river with no stepping stone." With such an introduction it shouldn't be shocking to anyone that there might be inherent problems with his interpretation. Secondly, Buddhaghosa's interpretion of DO is not the only ancient interpretation of DO; some commentary to the Abhidhamma explains DO in terms of individual mind moments instead of three lifetimes: "The Fonder expounded the paccayakara in terms of numerous moments of consciousness in the Suttantabhajaniya, but as the paccayakara is not limited to numerous minds, but can occur even in one mind moment, he now seeks to explain the paccayakara as it occurs in one mind moment, and this is the Abhidhammabhajaniya."[Vibh.A.199 (approx.)] And elsewhere: "In the Suttantabhajaniya the paccayakara is divided into different lifetimes. In the Abhidhammabhajaniya it is expounded in one mind moment."[Vibh.A.200 (approx.)] In regard to the principle of cause and effect as it functions in one mind moment in everyday life, it is said, "...birth, (aging and death) for example, here refer to birth (aging and death) of arupa (immaterial) things, not to the decaying of the teeth, the graying of the hair, the wrinkling of the skin, dying, the action of leaving existence."[Vibh.A.208 (approx.)] http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/coarisea.htm#note James: Therefore, I think it is reasonable to look at various interpretations of DO and to not declare one to be `absolutely correct', as BB does with Buddhaghosa's interpretation, just because it has been a popular part of the Theravada tradition. Metta, James 43140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Initial Hello Apa Kabar Lisa, I lived in Indonesia before. It is nice to have you. Iam also still learning about life. Would you tell us what you think about your life? We also have some friends from Bogor on this list, but I did not hear from them for a long time. Nina. op 10-03-2005 09:29 schreef lisa_herawati@j... op lisa_herawati@j...: > I'm Lisa, I find out about this groups from forwarded email of a friend. I > am interested in this group because I am a Buddhist and still learning > about this life. 43141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Initial Hello Hi Selamat, How nice to see you again. Do tell us about the Bogor group. How is everybody? Nina. op 10-03-2005 17:46 schreef nanapalo op nana_palo@c...: > Hi Lisa, > Welcome to this group. You can start with your subject or involve in > other's subject. Kindly please don’t hesitate to do this. > > Metta, > selamat 43142 From: Enio César Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Adinava e Nekkhamma Dear Sara and Nina, I sent an email to the Michael, telling him that his absence has being felt in this list. I am sure he will answer you soon! I loved the idea to make public the topic-to-topic discussion about the gradual teaching. However, I'm afraid that it will not be possible, because all the texts are already in Portuguese and I would spend too much time to translate them to English (and my translations are always terrible!). I will talk about it with Michael. He's always very busy, but maybe he would help me to translate the texts and make this public discussion possible, in order to improve the texts and to correct my errors of interpretation or translation. I'll be back soon! With Metta! Enio César. -----Mensagem Original----- De: Nina van Gorkom Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Enviada em: terça-feira, 8 de março de 2005 16:12 Assunto: Re: [dsg] Adinava e Nekkhamma Hi Sarah and Enio, A good idea. The Buddha gave a gradual teaching to general Siiha, beginning to help him see the danger of akusala and the benefit of kusala. It shows the Buddha's compassion, to be so thoughtful of what a person can take in first. Only later on he came to the deep teaching. It is good to reflect on this and apply in our life all these points the Buddha gave as a gradual teaching. Enio, I am still missing Michael, tell him. <....> 43143 From: Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Jon and Nina, Let's look at our experience. When your cheek touches your pillow at night can you tell what part of that contact is tangible data (softness) and what part is body-consciousness? We can make this distinction conceptually, as you both have shown, but I don't think panna can know rupa directly or can know consciousness "without an object", for the reasons I have already stated. I put "without an object" in quotation marks because "object" means different things in different contexts. Panna can know consciousness rooted in greed without an object where the object of the greed is, say, a tomato. But I don't think panna can know eye-consciousness without visible object. Also, I don't think panna can know a cetasika as a cetasika separate from consciousness. Larry 43144 From: Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Hi Nina, Can (must?) amoha know two or more objects at once? For example, how does amoha know that a particular desire arises with pleasant mental feeling _at_the_same_time? Larry 43145 From: Joe Cummings Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:42pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge Here it is: ------------------------------------------------ I thought I would bring up the topic of Abhidhamma. In Buddhist cosmology it is the teaching that the Buddha gave to his mother in the Tavaimsa heaven, and to the devas gathered there. Sariputta, the Buddha's main disciple, asked that this teaching be given to the human world too, and he accumulated the texts. The Buddha was reluctant as only devas would have the capacity to understand it. Historically the Abhidhamma did not appear until the 3rd Buddhist council 200 years after the Buddha passed away. The style and the language of the Abhidhamma also point to it being a later work by Buddhist philosophers. So is it Genuine Buddha-word, or a later addition? Is it correct in it's interpretations? Is it really the 'higher' dhamma? I have read the Abhidhammattha Sangaha 4 or 5 times, read a few of Nina Van Gorkham's books, read a selection of about 10 sections (suttas if you like) from each of the 7 texts as recommended by one of my teachers, and plodded through some large sections of the Katthavathu which was interesting (especially as many of the 'herasies' in it are in fact modern abhidhamma stances). Oversaw and arranged the Abhidhamma section in the triple CD rom "What Did the Buddha Teach" which we based muchly on the advise of professor Ravi (reknowned abhidhamma expert at Chulalongkorn). And attended about 5 or 6 classes of Wat Maha Taht Abhidhamma courses to see if I would be interested. I also wrote a little article comparing the Theravada texts with the Hinayana texts as recorded in China. Comparisons showed that the Digha Nikaya and Majjhima nikaya followed each other closely in the Th. and Chinese texts. The Samyutta and anguttara Nikaya followed each other in style and format, but not closely in arrangement or number of suttas. The Abhidhamma of the various Hinayana schoools varied so vastly as to suggest that they were indeed later additions. (happy to mail the article to anyone interested). My own conclusion is that 1) the abhidhamma is very inaccessible due to its stodgy format 2) is a later addition, and is not the Buddha word 3) Abhidhamma teachers rarely use the original texts but rely on mostly burmese commentaries that came well over a 1000 years after the Buddha 4) Abhidhamma scholars feel superior in Buddhism to anyone who has not studied their courses Also feel that a person's advancement in Buddhism does not depend so much on their school of practise or study, so much as their own merits. Prof. Ravi is a fine example of this - I found him most admirable, despite my reluctance with the abhidhamma. 43146 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:10pm Subject: Re: Predominant roots? -Kel, Suan & Htoo Hi Sarah and Jon, For me, this thread ends with what Ledi Sayadaw says. Hopefully others can furnish some references you're looking for. Jon, original discussion was whether one of satipatthana inherently includes all 4. Ledi sayadaw chose kaya but Goenka's would be vedana. Webu sayadaw would say kaya or vedana as his method. I was just using vedana as an example and appears to me Ledi sayadaw's dipani supported the original "contested" statement. So my position is vedana applies following the same logic. - kel 43147 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:34pm Subject: Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? Hello, Its bee a while since my last post in 2 years ago. Could you please tell me if the assertation and translation below is appropriate or not? -------------------------- http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/panadi10.htm In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana is the consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as is stated in the Dighanikaya."Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign perceptible to the senses and it is immeasurable, purest and a state wherein all the connection with elements cease, leaving no trace (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). ******************************** Thanks LK 43148 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:31pm Subject: Re: Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > > > Hello, > > Its bee a while since my last post in 2 years ago. > > Could you please tell me if the assertation and translation below is > appropriate or not? > > > -------------------------- > > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/panadi10.htm > > In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana is > the consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as > is stated in the Dighanikaya."Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam > sabbato pabbam" - Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign > perceptible to the senses and it is immeasurable, purest and a state > wherein all the connection with elements cease, leaving no trace > (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). > > ******************************** Dear LK, I asked suan about this passage a while back. I think he even wrote to the venerable sayadaw about it. Anyway here is his message: "The original Pali does not have the term "Nibbanam" in Chattha Sangayana Pali Tipitaka. The original Pali found in Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, Silakkhandhavagga, Dighanikayo starts with the term "Viññanam". And Kevatta Sutta Atthakatha defines "Viññanam" as follows. "Tattha viññatabbanti "Viññanam" nibbanassetam namam,.." "There, to be known specially, so (it is) "Viññanam". This is the name of nibbana." And Kevatta Sutta Tika further explains the phrase "viññatabbanti" as follows. "Viññatabbanti visitthena ñatabbam, ñanuttamena ariyamaggañanena paccakkhato janitabbanti attho, tenaha "nibbanassetam namam"ti." "(To be known specially) means to be extraordinarily known. The meaning is 'to be known in the sense of realization by ultimate wisdom, by noble path wisdom'". Therefore, (the commentator) stated that 'This is the name of nibbana'" Therefore, the term 'Viññanam' in the line of the original Pali verse "Viññanam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham .." does not refer to consciousness, the usual meaning of viññanam. In fact, the same verse includes the following two lines "Ettha namañca rupañca, asesam uparujjhati Viññanassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhati'ti". "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." Therefore, I am afraid that your remark "Interesting that it can considered as a sort of vinnana as it is also said to be void of the khandas which include vinnana." would not apply to the original Pali verse. Nibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of its Pali names happens to be Viññanam. In English language, the term 'object' can have different meanings. For example, the term 'object' in visual object has no relation to the term 'object' in my object of studting Pali. Hope this message helps clarification. With regards, Suan 43149 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:55pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 143 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(m) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)contd] *** Both vitakka and vicåra are jhåna-factors which can be developed in samatha, tranquil meditation. The jhåna-factors are sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas which are developed in order to inhibit the “hindrances”, defilements which obstruct the attainment of jhåna, absorption. Vitakka which is developed in samatha “thinks” of the meditation subject and it inhibits the hindrances which are sloth and torpor (thína and middha). The Visuddhimagga states in the definition of vitakka (IV, 88): * “… for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought…” * Thus, in samatha vitakka “touches” the meditation subject again and again until calm has developed to the degree that jhåna can be attained. ***** [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 43150 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: killing a sentient being Hi Ken O, Chris and All, Ken O, your raised some livelihood issues off-list related to serving/selling liquor, cigarettes and live fish. They’re good questions. I came across a few notes I made from listening to K.Sujin on a tape (India 01) and wish to share them. I think they’re also relevant to Christine’s recent thread ‘Killing a sentient being’, so I’ll summarise them here. I didn’t note the questions in between the comments which related to war and dropping of bombs. In brief, often or even usually, there’s wrong livelihood unknowingly. For example, there are many moments in a day when we don’t speak correctly in the course of our job or livelihood. Of course, kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala, regardless of whether it concerns our work. When it concerns our living or livelihood, they are different cetasikas. Akusala is nobody – it’s just a moment,even for example, dropping a bomb in a war. It’s just a moment of intention which is kamma. There’s no need to think about past or future moments or a whole situation. As to the intention or kamma, it depends whether there is the intention to kill or whether it’s one’s duty to just drop the bomb, without knowing what will happen. There may not be any intention to kill people, but one may just be given the order. It’s not necessary to have the intention to kill, but one has to drop it. So it all comes back to the intention at any given moment and whether it’s strong or weak. One may have far away thoughts for example. There are always different cittas which only right understanding can know. So, Ken O & Chris, I think the same applies to purchasing, serving or selling liquor or the hospital and other examples you gave too, for example. There are many, many cittas at these or any other times. Of course there will be akusala cittas, but we need to look at the dhammas such as the intentions, rather than the situations, I think. As I’ve been discussing with Htoo, the intention or kamma can be supporting kamma as opposed to generating, obstructive or destructive kamma. I don’t know if this helps and I know Chris will have many objections! I look forward to your comments or feedback from anyone else. Metta, Sarah p.s Ken O, you may also like to check the posts saved under ‘Livelihood’ in Useful Posts – lots of quotes from texts. ====== 43151 From: Joop Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: To Connie: BB's Article --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Connie, > > Thank you for sending me "A Critical Examination of ~Naa.naviira > Thera's "A Note on Pa.ticcasamuppaada"" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. At the > suggestion of Sarah, and possibly because you are interested, I will > give you some feedback on the article. I am not entirely finished > with BB's article, and I haven't read the book by Nanavira yet, but > I am finding that the points are becoming too numerous to put into a > single response. This will be an initial response and more could > possibly come as issues become apparent during my reading. It is my > hope that this dialogue could help us both to better understand the > teaching of Dependent Origination and its application to individual > Buddhist practice. Dear James, Connie and all About Nanavira, I suggest you read the essay of Stepehen Batchelor about his life, his work and his tragical end: www.stephenbatchelor.org/existence1.html One of the lessons I got out of this biography is that's dangerous to be too eager to get a arahat. About BB's article, I have not read it, only the quote of James of it (please give alonger one). I think we should not say that there are "various interpretations of DO" but that DO give the explanation of causality on several levels and on several timescales (from millisecond to a billion of years). Of course BB is orthodox (to orthodox in my taste) But is Nanavira right ? Metta Joop PS James, I did not react on your comments on my message 'Having no opinions'. Because we agree. One remark: after writing my message I realized to be close to Kalupahana's Theravadin interpretation of Nagarjuna (again). 43152 From: Charles Perera Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Dear Nina, I am just asking you a question. Isn't amoha a kusala citta, and as always, one citta takes one object when it arises. Amoha doesn't know a desire, but desire arises as a condition of an amoha citta ? thankyou, for a clarification. with metta, Hasituppada LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi Nina, Can (must?) amoha know two or more objects at once? For example, how does amoha know that a particular desire arises with pleasant mental feeling _at_the_same_time? Larry 43153 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:48am Subject: Sila Visuddhi (purity of sila) Hi KenH ,Tep & All, When I was checking the reference on citta visuddhi and ditthi which Htoo referred me to, I came across the following quote on sila visuddhi. [Firstly, as I understand, there are 9 different kinds of visuddhi (purity), which develop with satipatthana as stages of vipassana are reached. We know this is the reason that only the sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly or has no cause to abstain from not observing them. Sila visuddhi therefore only arises with satipatthana which is aware of nama and rupa. There is purification from the wrong idea or ignorance of dhammas as being a self.] .... From the commentary (Abhidammatthavibhaavinii) to Abhidhammatthasangaha, STA ch9, under sila visuddhi: “The virtue of fourfold purity – the virtue of the restraint of the monastic rule, the virtue of the restraint of the senses, the virtue of the purity of livelihood, and virtue concerning the requisites – is called ‘purification of conduct’ (sila visuddhi).” Commentary “The monastic rule (patimokkha) is what frees (mokkheti) the one who keeps (paati) it from the sufferings of the realms of misfortune, etc. It is itself a restraint, because it restrains one from bodily misconduct, etc, and virtue in the sense of making [conduct] conform [to what is wholesome] and upholding [wholesome dhammas]; such is the virtue of the restraint of the monastic rule. The virtue of the restraint of the senses is the virtue that occurs by way of restraining the six senses, including the mind, with regard to visible forms, etc. The virtue of the purity of livelihood is the virtue of the utter purity of livelihood by avoiding wrong livelihood. The virtue concerning the requisites is the virtue consisting of the reflection, connected with a requisite, that a thing as a specific use. This is called the virtue of fourfold purity because it is fourfold and pure in teaching, restraint, quest, and reflection.” S: Like you always stress, Ken, H, I think the fourfold sila visuddhi needs to be seen as referring to moments of satipatthana. We can see here, under restraint of the senses (indriya samvara sila), for example, how all such moments of satipatthana are also a kind of sila. Nyantiloka also gives more detail on catu-paarisuddhi sila and visuddhi at these links: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sikkhaa_pada.htm http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/visuddhi.htm Also, you may like to look at A.Sujin’s book, Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, transl by Nina, Part 1V, ch 3, ‘Different Kinds of Purity’ http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para12.htm Metta, Sarah p.s Tep, thank you for giving me your kind note and the link to the Vera Sutta . Ken H, I hope you and Charles continue your discussion – I’m enjoying it!! ======================================= 43154 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi Joe, Like the others, I'm glad to see you around again! Are you based in Thailand these days or in some other exotic location? Jon, myself and a few others will be in Bkk for discussions with A.Sujin at the very end of the month. I'm very glad you've raised these questions. As Nina said, we've had long discussions here before and some selected posts of relevance can be seen at these links to old posts in 'Useful Posts' in the files section. I've given the links in full to just a couple of them. I'd be glad to hear anything more from you or anyone else. You're also welcome to pass on the links if you think it's useful. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29638 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12658 Abhidhamma 2 - its origins, also see ‘Kathavatthu’ 3350, 4639, 8620, 9464, 12658, 12857, 17027, 19543, 19664, 19780, 22794, 22810, 29448, 29638, 33875 I hope Robert, Nina, Jon, Htoo, RobM or others add any further comments on the letter you copied. Metta, Sarah ======= 43155 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:41am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge Dear Joe, Thanks for your posting. I have read at the site that you linked. Please see below. Robert K would also discuss separately on this matter. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe posted part of discussion at somewhere regarding 'Abhidhamma': Here it is: ------------------------------------------------ [quote] I thought I would bring up the topic of Abhidhamma. In Buddhist cosmology it is the teaching that the Buddha gave to his mother in the Tavaimsa heaven, and to the devas gathered there. Sariputta, the Buddha's main disciple, asked that this teaching be given to the human world too, and he accumulated the texts. The Buddha was reluctant as only devas would have the capacity to understand it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This again need to be checked at valid scripts. I do not think 'The Buddha was reluctant to preach Abhidhamma to Sariputta'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] Historically the Abhidhamma did not appear until the 3rd Buddhist council 200 years after the Buddha passed away. The style and the language of the Abhidhamma also point to it being a later work by Buddhist philosophers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not believe in that way. Abhidhamma is always with practitioners. Abhidhamma is always with Bhikkhus. Abhidhamma is always with monks. Abhidhamma is always with lay followers. I think here the problem is 'the idea of Historic Abhidhamma'. The Buddha did preach Abhidhamma to 1st 5 disciples and to all following disciples. Each and every sutta has abhidhamma. Abhidhamma is the life of Dhamma. Without Abhidhamma it is not Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] So is it Genuine Buddha-word, or a later addition? Is it correct in it's interpretations? Is it really the 'higher' dhamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think this is doubtful idea on scripts rather than on Dhamma. The word 'a later addition' insults the work of arahats. Interpretation resides in individual's mind and not in translators or interpretters. If one sees real dhamma, he or she alreay sees abhidhamma and The Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] I have read the Abhidhammattha Sangaha 4 or 5 times, read a few of Nina Van Gorkham's books, read a selection of about 10 sections (suttas if you like) from each of the 7 texts as recommended by one of my teachers, and plodded through some large sections of the Katthavathu which was interesting (especially as many of the 'herasies' in it are in fact modern abhidhamma stances). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here the writer does not say 'the whole Abhidhamma texts that is all 7 texts.' Again he or she does not say 'the whole Kathavatthu'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] Oversaw and arranged the Abhidhamma section in the triple CD rom "What Did the Buddha Teach" which we based muchly on the advise of professor Ravi (reknowned abhidhamma expert at Chulalongkorn). And attended about 5 or 6 classes of Wat Maha Taht Abhidhamma courses to see if I would be interested. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The problem starts with CD Roms. Some people go through CD Roms and do statistics on words like vipassana, jhana, etc etc. But these CD Roms are just translations and frequency of words does not mean anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] I also wrote a little article comparing the Theravada texts with the Hinayana texts as recorded in China. Comparisons showed that the Digha Nikaya and Majjhima nikaya followed each other closely in the Th. and Chinese texts. The Samyutta and anguttara Nikaya followed each other in style and format, but not closely in arrangement or number of suttas. The Abhidhamma of the various Hinayana schoools varied so vastly as to suggest that they were indeed later additions. (happy to mail the article to anyone interested). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Those who see Dhamma will not argue anything. But those who know everything about Dhamma including Historical account of everything will always be arguing with different people with different level of knowledge. Once one discards Abhidhamma then he or she already loses his or her escape way and then bound to the samsara forever. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] My own conclusion is that 1) the abhidhamma is very inaccessible due to its stodgy format ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the writer own conclusion. This is not the judgement of arahats, anagams, sakadagams, sotapams. And not even of well-learned puthujanas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] 2) is a later addition, and is not the Buddha word ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said above, no ears here on this earth will be able to hear The Buddha's words and what is essential is to have genuine guide to escape way. Example is there are many many people who do not know gold. Not all gold are yellow and not all yellow metal are gold. Some may be reciting Buddha's words. But as long as they do not follow them they are not with Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] 3) Abhidhamma teachers rarely use the original texts but rely on mostly burmese commentaries that came well over a 1000 years after the Buddha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the writer's specific remark. This does not reside in Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] 4) Abhidhamma scholars feel superior in Buddhism to anyone who has not studied their courses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Not all. As I said above those who are reciting, doing revision or anything like that but not following what The Buddha taught is said to be not with Dhamma. If with Dhamma, there is no reason to think oneself as superior to others. Again the 40 above is just a remark of the writer of that message at other web site. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [quote] Also feel that a person's advancement in Buddhism does not depend so much on their school of practise or study, so much as their own merits. Prof. Ravi is a fine example of this - I found him most admirable, despite my reluctance with the abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But there are instances that a good coach can bring a good trainee. Thanks Joe for your bring up this interesting 'Abhidhamma-aversive post' to the group where Abhidhamma is highly admired. May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 43156 From: Joop Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Citta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ... > ........ When we read in > the suttas and especially the oft-quoted Sutta Nipata verses about the > need to give up all views, it is the wrong views we hold that are being > referred to. > Dear Sarah, "When we read in the suttas and especially the oft-quoted Sutta Nipata verses about the need to give up all views, it is the wrong views we hold that are being referred to." An response to my message "Having no opinion" I send some hours after yours (43092) ! I know this was not the first time and I admire your patient to repeat some discussions year after year in this DSG. Still I want to say I don't agree with you. The Paramatthaka Sutta (Sutta-Nipata, IV- 5) is about having no view at all (I hope you accept that I use 'view' and 'opinion' as synomyms), not only socalled wrong ones. I know it's easy for me to say so because this is what I experience more and more as the effect of my vipassana- (insight-) meditation. "Right views" are only a means: when one gets the anatta- insight, there is nobody who can have a view anymore! When I state this, I'm thinking of Nagarjuna words of course: "I have no opinion". Metta Joop 43157 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:09am Subject: Re: To Connie: BB's Article Hi Joop, Joop: One of the lessons I got out of this biography is that's dangerous to be too eager to get a arahat. James: I couldn't get the link to that article to work but I read some other biographical information on the Internet. Yeah, it is dangerous to want to become an arahant- actually one should be willing to risk his or her life (as the Buddha did). From what I read, Nanavira Thera had medical problems his whole life. Toward the end he had developed such significant medical problems that the medication he had to take interfered with his meditation practice. He decided to take his life rather than disrobe, seeing the futility in the householder life. I find his decision a bit extreme but it wasn't my life to decide- I wasn't there. Anyway, his actions have no bearing on the truth or non-truth of what he wrote. Joop: About BB's article, I have not read it, only the quote of James of it (please give alonger one). James: I thought the quote I gave was rather long ;-). If you would like the entire article write to me and I will send it to you: buddhatrue@y... Joop: I think we should not say that there are "various interpretations of DO" but that DO give the explanation of causality on several levels and on several timescales (from millisecond to a billion of years). James: Joop, this is another interpretation of DO which not everyone would agree with; therefore, there are various interpretations of DO. Joop: But is Nanavira right ? James: I don't know yet. At this point, I am leaning toward his interpretation. Joop: James, I did not react on your comments on my message 'Having no opinions'. Because we agree. James: That's okay. I usually don't respond either when there is agreement. Metta, James 43158 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo Dear Sarah and everyone, I have just returned from a trip to the north of Thailand with some Icelandic friends and am now catching up with the dsg digests. So far I have noticed two posts addressed to me and will try to reply to them tomorrow. While we were passing through Lampang I stopped to pay a visit to my old Pali teacher, Sayadaw Dhammananda at Wat Tha Ma O. I recall that some of you are acquainted with him. I had received a mistaken report of his death some years ago, but in fact he is still alive and well, and despite his 85 years still spends about four hours every afternoon conducting the temple's Pali classes. My friends took some photos of us and I have added two to the dsg photo section. Just one remark on your reply to Htoo: > I'm not sure, however, if all the details you give can be found in the > texts, such as about the hell stations, the hell-dogs, the razor > trees,whips and hell-handlers & their methods. I'd be glad for any > sources. The detailed description of hell given by Htoo, including the dogs, vultures, razor trees etc., is all from the old texts, but I think little of it is available in English, with the exception of what is in the Jaataka Atthakathaa. If you have a copy of Cowell's translation you might look up the name Maatali in the index of volume VI and check the references. Maatali was the charioteer of Sakka and in several Jaatakas he takes people on Dante-like tours of the hell realms and the celestial worlds. The Nimi Jaataka gives an especially detailed description of the auxiliary hells, the punishments found in each division of hell and the evil kammas that led their inhabitants to be reborn there. Another useful source in English is Frank Reynolds' translation of the Traibhuumikathaa ("Three Worlds according to King Ruang -- a Thai Buddhist Cosmology", Asia Humanities Press 1982). Though this is actually the work of a mediaeval Siamese king, most of the cosmological details are based squarely on the Atthakathaa. Wherever they are based more on Thai folk tradition and differ from the Atthakathaa the translator remarks on this in the footnotes. Best wishes, Dhammanando 43159 From: mnease Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:37am Subject: Nibbaana Object for Nina Hi Nina, Is nibbaana the object of the mundane path? Does this occur with insight prior to stream-entry? Thanks in advance. mike 43160 From: Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: killing a sentient being Hi Sarah (and Ken O & Chris) - I'm trying to stay away from posting, but sometimes I find it a bit difficult. ;-) What you say in the following is literally correct, Sarah, but fraught with danger in my opinion. I add a couple comments below. In a message dated 3/11/05 4:06:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Of course, kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala, regardless of whether it > concerns our work. When it concerns our living or livelihood, they are > different cetasikas. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, every mindstate and aspect of it is impersonal. Just conditions. ------------------------------------- > > Akusala is nobody – it’s just a moment,even for example, dropping a bomb > in a war. It’s just a moment of intention which is kamma. There’s no need > to think about past or future moments or a whole situation. ------------------------------------ Howard: Akusala states are nobody - quite impersonal - BUT. The big "BUT" pertains to certain conventional matters (which, of course, reduce to mere impersonal conditions). (1) It is possible by ongoing contemplation and practice in guarding the senses to reduce the akusala moments and increase the kusala moments (not instantaneously, of course, but as a matter of gradual cultivation), and (2) Acting on akusala inclinations, though literally done by "nobody" is, conventionally speaking, acting that is performed by somebody, and taking such actions had darn well better be resisted! There IS most assuredly the " need to think about past or future moments or a whole situation," because that is a good part of the basis on whether or not we will wreak havoc in the world and in our day-to-day lives. ------------------------------------------- > > As to the intention or kamma, it depends whether there is the intention to > kill or whether it’s one’s duty to just drop the bomb, without knowing > what will happen. There may not be any intention to kill people, but one > may just be given the order. It’s not necessary to have the intention to > kill, but one has to drop it. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Bombs are of the nature to destroy, not only property but also life. Anyone who drops a bomb knows quite well that it is intended to result in destruction, often of lives, and often of the lives of innocents. When someone allows themselves to be put into such a situation, it is at that moment that they are succumbing to akusala. Now I am not saying that I would not succumb. I am not saying that I would not act wrongly, and I'm not saying that I DO not act wrongly. What I am saying is that wrong action must be recognized for what it is, and wrong action cannot be made right by pointing out that all that is involved are impersonal conditions. To attempt to do so is a form of Buddhist antinomianism. I know that you are not doing this, but what you are saying is open to a misinterpretation that would provide a Buddhist moral imprimatur to be stamped on immoral acts, and I am simply cautioning against such a misinterpretation of what you wrote. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 43161 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Dear Sarah and everyone, > > I have just returned from a trip to the north of Thailand with some > Icelandic friends and am now catching up with the dsg digests. So far > I have noticed two posts addressed to me and will try to reply to them > tomorrow. > > While we were passing through Lampang I stopped to pay a visit to my > old Pali teacher, Sayadaw Dhammananda at Wat Tha Ma O. I recall that > some of you are acquainted with him. I had received a mistaken report > of his death some years ago, but in fact he is still alive and well, > and despite his 85 years still spends about four hours every > afternoon conducting the temple's Pali classes. My friends took some > photos of us and I have added two to the dsg photo section. > > Just one remark on your reply to Htoo: > > > I'm not sure, however, if all the details you give can be found in the > > texts, such as about the hell stations, the hell-dogs, the razor > > trees,whips and hell-handlers & their methods. I'd be glad for any > > sources. > > The detailed description of hell given by Htoo, including the dogs, > vultures, razor trees etc., is all from the old texts, but I think > little of it is available in English, with the exception of what is in > the Jaataka Atthakathaa. ..snip.. > Best wishes, > > Dhammanando ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Venerable Sir, Thank you very much for your input. I forgot King Nemi (one of 10 lives of Bodhisattas in almost perfection). With much respect, Htoo Naing 43162 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: To Connie: BB's Article Dear James, Joop, All, Nanavira's and BBodhi's articles will be at http://www.intergate.com/~dhammapatha for awhile in case anyone's interested in downloading them. The zip file for Nanavira's writings has some of his letters and early writings as well as some other stuff not by him. peace, connie 43163 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? Hi LK, nice to see you back after two years, I remember you. I also remember Suan's very clear explanation of the Pali text as quoted now by Rob K. We have to see the expression Viññaana.m in the right context. Nina. op 11-03-2005 04:34 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y... > Could you please tell me if the assertation and translation below is > appropriate or not? ...stated in the Dighanikaya."Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam > sabbato pabbam" 43164 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi Joe, I just take up one or two points. Not about the history, but touching on the Abhidhamma itself. Did you learn Thai? I am listening to MP3 of very good discussions on Abhidhamma in Thai in the Wat Bovornives, by A. Sujin and Prof Somporn. A. Sujin used to lecture in the Wat Maha Taht, wellknown to me. I am interested at your points 1 and 4. op 11-03-2005 03:42 schreef Joe Cummings op joe@j...: > My own conclusion is that > 1) the abhidhamma is very inaccessible due to its stodgy format > 2) is a later addition, and is not the Buddha word > 3) Abhidhamma teachers rarely use the original texts but rely on > mostly burmese commentaries that came well over a 1000 years after the > Buddha > 4) Abhidhamma scholars feel superior in Buddhism to anyone who has not > studied their courses N: Point 4: Just book study can lead to this. But the Abhidhamma is not supposed to be book study, it is to be lived and practised. Then one will discover many, many defilements, coarse and subtle, one had never thought of before. One comes to see that lobha arises in a day more often than one could dream of. Lobha can take any object through the six doorways. And see the suttas: here we also find the teaching of kusala and akusala. How lobha lures us all the time. I reposte what I wrote before: Learning about the latent tendencies helps us to understand why we again and again make the same mistakes in life. We learn more details about conceit and come to know that it can arise with regard to any object we experience. See the Book of Analysis, Small Matters. We should study the Abhidhamma together with Suttanta and Vinaya. Through the Vinaya we learn about many shades and degrees of defilements, to see danger in the smallest faults. Through the Abhidhamma we come to understand more the Buddha's message contained in the suttas and the Vinaya. The Abhidhamma is closely connected with satipatthana. Your point 1: 1) the abhidhamma is very inaccessible due to its stodgy format. N: You do not have to read through all the lists, but you can learn that the Abhidhamma pertains to daily life. Also the Commentaries are very helpful. Little by little it can become more interesting. Lisa wrote that she is learning about her life. Yes, through the Abhidhamma we can learn about life and death. Life is only one moment of experiencing an object and then gone completely. The citta that falls away conditions the arising of the next one, but this is a different moment. So it is at the last moment of life, this falls away and condiitons the first moment of the next life. It helps to cling less to the importance of my personality, my life. Nina. 43165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Hi Larry, op 11-03-2005 01:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Can (must?) amoha know two or more objects at once? For example, how > does amoha know that a particular desire arises with pleasant mental > feeling _at_the_same_time? N: It is understandable that we are wondering about this. We also wonder about unpleasant feeling, domanassa, arising with citta rooted in aversion, dosa-muulacitta. We know by inference that they arise together, and that is different from sati of satipatthana which only knows one characteristic at a time. The aim of satipatthana is to see dhammas as impersonal elements, insignificant elements that arise and are then gone immediately. We can learn about the way of developing understanding when we read the Satipatthanasutta and its commentary. Paññaa or amoha realizes only one characteristic at a time. I shall quote from the Way of Mindfulness by Ven. Soma: At one moment there may be awareness of a rupa such as colour, the next moment of feeling or of citta. These are classified as different applications of mindfulness, but citta with awareness changes from moment to moment, and shortly after mindfulness of rupa there can be mindfulness of feeling, nobody can predict this. That is how it naturally occurs. You may still wonder how one can know the difference between citta and cetasika. This cannot be known before the first stage of insight: distinguishing between the characterstic of nama and of rupa. That is how it is. Just now, we can only think about it by inference. Nina. 43166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi Larry, perhaps my quotes from Ven. Soma can be of help. op 11-03-2005 01:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Let's look at our experience. When your cheek touches your pillow at > night can you tell what part of that contact is tangible data (softness) > and what part is body-consciousness? N: We cannot know by thinking about it. But the first stage of insight does know the difference, though not of all namas and rupas. In the beginning only a few namas and rupas may be realized. Satipatthana has to continue so that more namas and rupas are known. L: We can make this distinction > conceptually, as you both have shown, but I don't think panna can know > rupa directly or can know consciousness "without an object", for the > reasons I have already stated. >.... I don't think panna can know eye-consciousness without > visible object. N: At one moment paññaa knows eye-consciousness, at another moment visible object. L: Also, I don't think panna can know a cetasika as a cetasika separate > from consciousness. N: See may other post with quotes. Nina. 43167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Dear Hasituppada, op 11-03-2005 07:54 schreef Charles Perera op hasituppada@y...: > I am just asking you a question. Isn't amoha a kusala citta, and as always, > one citta takes one object when it arises. N: Yes, amoha or paññaa is a sobhana cetasika and it may accompany kusala citta. Each citta can cognize only one object as you say. Citta is accompanied by several cetasikas and they all share the same object. Paññaa accompanying the kusala citta shares the same object as the citta, only one object at a time. Paññaa, when it is of the level of vipassanaa, penetrates the true characteristic of that object. Sati also accompanies the kusala citta and it is aware of the object, and in this way it supports paññaa to know its characteristic. H: Amoha doesn't know a desire, but desire arises as a condition of an amoha citta ? N: Amoha cannot arise at the same time as desire, but sati can be mindful of desire that has just fallen away and paññaa can know its characteristic, it can know it as a conditioned naama dhamma. In that case desire conditions paññaa by way of object-condition, arammana-paccaaya, by being its object. Akusala can also condition kusala by way of natural strong dependence-condition, pakatuppanissaya paccaya. Desire may arise, and then paññaa sees the danger of desire and the benefit of understanding any reality that appears, including desire, as it really is, as non-self. Nina. 43168 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: NEW dialogue with Htoo, kamma. Dear Htoo, op 10-03-2005 18:17 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > My belief is that all > akusala cittas do have kamma. N: Yes, because cetanaa is kamma. Each akusala citta is accompanied by akusala cetanaa. H: And all kamma each do carry their full > power till the last moment of arahatta-cuti-citta. > > Kamma without results may well be such ones. > > But unhealthy control of smile is not Dhamma even though laughing may > have akusala base. N: I am glad you say this! We should not lead an unnatural life full of scruples, like Rob K said, feeling guilty about eating icecream. Nina. 43169 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbaana Object, for Nina Hi Mike, op 11-03-2005 15:37 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: > Is nibbaana the object of the mundane path? Does this occur with insight > prior to stream-entry? N: It is not the object of the Path that is lokiya, but change-of-lineage, gotrabhuu, that is still lokiya citta, has as object nibbaana. However, it does not eradicate defilements. After that lokuttara cittas arise. Gotrabhuu is intermediate between lokiya and lokuttara. See T.A. p. 356: Gotta is the clan, lineage of the ancestry. Bhuu: he has become. He becomes another person, as we could say in conventional language. Nina. 43170 From: Charles Perera Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Dear Nina, Thankyou, that was very clear. May you be well and happy. with metta, Charles Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Hasituppada, op 11-03-2005 07:54 schreef Charles Perera op hasituppada@y...: > I am just asking you a question. Isn't amoha a kusala citta, and as always, > one citta takes one object when it arises. N: Yes, amoha or paññaa is a sobhana cetasika and it may accompany kusala citta. Each citta can cognize only one object as you say. Citta is accompanied by several cetasikas and they all share the same object. Paññaa accompanying the kusala citta shares the same object as the citta, only one object at a time. Paññaa, when it is of the level of vipassanaa, penetrates the true characteristic of that object. Sati also accompanies the kusala citta and it is aware of the object, and in this way it supports paññaa to know its characteristic. H: Amoha doesn't know a desire, but desire arises as a condition of an amoha citta ? N: Amoha cannot arise at the same time as desire, but sati can be mindful of desire that has just fallen away and paññaa can know its characteristic, it can know it as a conditioned naama dhamma. In that case desire conditions paññaa by way of object-condition, arammana-paccaaya, by being its object. Akusala can also condition kusala by way of natural strong dependence-condition, pakatuppanissaya paccaya. Desire may arise, and then paññaa sees the danger of desire and the benefit of understanding any reality that appears, including desire, as it really is, as non-self. Nina. 43171 From: Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Hi Nina, I agree. Amoha doesn't know that a feeling arises at the same time as a consciousness. For consciousness rooted in greed CMA has "one consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted" etc. Amoha must know these qualities one at a time as the components of the apparent whole of greed rooted consciousness. Knowing all these parts, amoha can see directly that the apparent whole of the various characteristics of greed rooted consciousness is empty of ultimate characteristic (sabhava), in a word, anatta. On a more conventional level we can see this in our body. A body is two arms, two legs, a head, and a torso. Sensing this as visible data or tangible data we can understand that the apparent whole of body is empty of being one thing, and only an apparent whole. An arm or leg is, itself, divisible into smaller parts, but it isn't necessary for parts to be indivisible in order to see the emptiness of a whole. I suspect that everything we experience is an apparent whole in the sense that one consciousness moment is too small and quick to amount to a noticeable event. So I am thinking that the practical intent of abhidhamma, for purposes of bhavana, is that "ultimate reality" refers to a small compound that is experientially irreducible, and that "event" is anatta by virtue of being immediately impermanent. Of course insight is only a stepping-stone to dispassion. So if this process becomes interesting, something is amiss. Larry 43172 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:57pm Subject: Re: Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? Dear rjkjp Thank you for your informative help. Even a renowned sayadaw in Myanmar like him made such a rudimentary error! I like to know what's happened between Suan and the Sayadaw afterward. Dear Nina Nice to write to you again ! I remember you said you were going to translate some article on Anusaya from Thai to English . So I just read it through Useful post Htm. You wrote on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29228 ----------------------- Thus we see that there are latent tendencies in each of the cittas that are arising and falling away in succession so long as they have not been eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. ----------------------- Is not it possible for wisdom(panna) to clearly see each of the latent tendencies like other nama and rupa ? Or is there any aspect in each of cittas that even wisdom can never see clearly. from LK 43173 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:30pm Subject: Re: Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > > > Dear rjkjp > > Thank you for your informative help. > > Even a renowned sayadaw in Myanmar like him made such a rudimentary > error! > > I like to know what's happened between Suan and the Sayadaw afterward. > > ======== Dear LC, Hopefully Suan will see this post and let us know. I looked at the whole article and what I suspect happened is that the sayadaw took notes from a few different English articles/translations and then composed his final version. His English is good but perhaps not firm enough to detect the subtle problem with that particular sentence. I have no doubt at all that if he was writing in Burmese this wouldn't have happened: the Sayadaw is well skilled in Abhidhamma and surely understands the Theravada position on nibbana. Robertk 43174 From: Joe Cummings Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi Nina Thanks very much for that. Just to clarify one thing, those were not my observations. Rather they were posted by someone else on the Buddhism branch of the thaivisa.com Expat Forum. It's a pretty 'light' Buddhist discussion group, and we get all kinds dropping in, mostly complete neophytes. This post came from a regular particpant who claims to have a background in Pali Buddhist studies. I had made reference to the Abhidhamma in an earlier post, and I guess he felt he needed to launch his 'challenge'. Would it be OK if I posted your comments there? Thanks again, Joe --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Joe, > I just take up one or two points. Not about the history, but touching on the > Abhidhamma itself. > Did you learn Thai? I am listening to MP3 of very good discussions on > Abhidhamma in Thai in the Wat Bovornives, by A. Sujin and Prof Somporn. A. > Sujin used to lecture in the Wat Maha Taht, wellknown to me. I am interested > at your points 1 and 4. > > op 11-03-2005 03:42 schreef Joe Cummings op joe@j...: > > My own conclusion is that > > 1) the abhidhamma is very inaccessible due to its stodgy format > > 2) is a later addition, and is not the Buddha word > > 3) Abhidhamma teachers rarely use the original texts but rely on > > mostly burmese commentaries that came well over a 1000 years after the > > Buddha > > 4) Abhidhamma scholars feel superior in Buddhism to anyone who has not > > studied their courses > N: Point 4: Just book study can lead to this. But the Abhidhamma is not > supposed to be book study, it is to be lived and practised. Then one will > discover many, many defilements, coarse and subtle, one had never thought of > before. One comes to see that lobha arises in a day more often than one > could dream of. Lobha can take any object through the six doorways. And see > the suttas: here we also find the teaching of kusala and akusala. How lobha > lures us all the time. > I reposte what I wrote before: deep underlying motives of our actions, speech and thoughts. We often > deceive ourselves as to the motives of our actions, speech and thoughts that > seem to be wholesome. In reality they are mostly directed towards our own > gain, they are motivated by selfish desire. With a growing understanding of > the latent tendencies that are powerful conditions for all akusala cittas in > our life, we will be urged to be mindful of all realities, akusala included. > By reflecting and being aware of whatever reality appears we can learn to > become more sincere and truthful with regard to the cittas that arise. > > Learning about the latent tendencies helps us to understand why we again and > again make the same mistakes in life. > We learn more details about conceit and come to know that it can arise with > regard to any object we experience. See the Book of Analysis, Small Matters. > We should study the Abhidhamma together with Suttanta and Vinaya. Through > the Vinaya we learn about many shades and degrees of defilements, to see > danger in the smallest faults. Through the Abhidhamma we come to understand > more the Buddha's message contained in the suttas and the Vinaya. The > Abhidhamma is closely connected with satipatthana. > Your point 1: 1) the abhidhamma is very inaccessible due to its stodgy > format. > N: You do not have to read through all the lists, but you can learn that the > Abhidhamma pertains to daily life. Also the Commentaries are very helpful. > Little by little it can become more interesting. > Lisa wrote that she is learning about her life. Yes, through the Abhidhamma > we can learn about life and death. Life is only one moment of experiencing > an object and then gone completely. The citta that falls away conditions the > arising of the next one, but this is a different moment. So it is at the > last moment of life, this falls away and condiitons the first moment of the > next life. > It helps to cling less to the importance of my personality, my life. > Nina. 43175 From: Joe Cummings Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi Sarah Thanks a lot for your response and for the links, which I'll share with the Expat Forum Buddhism branch. I'm still in Thailand, living in Chiang Mai since '97, still writing but now also working in local film production as an actor and location manager. Just finished two films back to back, SUMMER IN SIAM and BOOTLEG GURU, both of which contain small Buddhist elements in the script. I'd really like to attend the discussions in Thonburi one of these days. Probably not the end of this month but maybe in April? Joe --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joe, > > Like the others, I'm glad to see you around again! Are you based in > Thailand these days or in some other exotic location? Jon, myself and a > few others will be in Bkk for discussions with A.Sujin at the very end of > the month. > > I'm very glad you've raised these questions. As Nina said, we've had long > discussions here before and some selected posts of relevance can be seen > at these links to old posts in 'Useful Posts' in the files section. I've > given the links in full to just a couple of them. > > I'd be glad to hear anything more from you or anyone else. You're also > welcome to pass on the links if you think it's useful. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29638 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12658 > > Abhidhamma 2 - its origins, also see `Kathavatthu' > 3350, 4639, 8620, 9464, 12658, 12857, 17027, 19543, 19664, 19780, 22794, > 22810, 29448, 29638, 33875 > > I hope Robert, Nina, Jon, Htoo, RobM or others add any further comments on > the letter you copied. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 43176 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:12pm Subject: Re: killing a sentient being Hello Sarah, all, Presumably one believes the mind states or physicial actions that one engages in during this lifetime, will have some determining effect on one's future. i.e. you are responsible for your actions and will suffer the consequences thereof. Mostly, despite the Teachngs, I don't think we really believe mindstates are too important other although knowing they are the intention for physical action. Maybe we don't commit gross breaches of the moral standard - we don't go about stealing, raping, murdering etc. - but we think these physical actions greatly outweigh the fleeting mind moments of stinginess, anger, lust and greed, self-pity etc that fill a proportion of each day. Your post brings two thoughts to mind. Either murder, killing, abortion are not such very great things ... just a flickering mind moment - or we haven't the faintest idea of how dangerous all the uncountable mind moments that flick by in any minute really are. metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Ken O, Chris and All, > > Ken O, your raised some livelihood issues off-list related to > serving/selling liquor, cigarettes and live fish. They're good questions. > I came across a few notes I made from listening to K.Sujin on a tape > (India 01) and wish to share them. I think they're also relevant to > Christine's recent thread `Killing a sentient being', so I'll summarise > them here. I didn't note the questions in between the comments which > related to war and dropping of bombs. > > In brief, often or even usually, there's wrong livelihood unknowingly. For > example, there are many moments in a day when we don't speak correctly in > the course of our job or livelihood. > > Of course, kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala, regardless of whether it > concerns our work. When it concerns our living or livelihood, they are > different cetasikas. > > Akusala is nobody – it's just a moment,even for example, dropping a bomb > in a war. It's just a moment of intention which is kamma. There's no need > to think about past or future moments or a whole situation. > > As to the intention or kamma, it depends whether there is the intention to > kill or whether it's one's duty to just drop the bomb, without knowing > what will happen. There may not be any intention to kill people, but one > may just be given the order. It's not necessary to have the intention to > kill, but one has to drop it. > > So it all comes back to the intention at any given moment and whether it's > strong or weak. One may have far away thoughts for example. There are > always different cittas which only right understanding can know. > > So, Ken O & Chris, I think the same applies to purchasing, serving or > selling liquor or the hospital and other examples you gave too, for > example. There are many, many cittas at these or any other times. Of > course there will be akusala cittas, but we need to look at the dhammas > such as the intentions, rather than the situations, I think. As I've been > discussing with Htoo, the intention or kamma can be supporting kamma as > opposed to generating, obstructive or destructive kamma. > > I don't know if this helps and I know Chris will have many objections! I > look forward to your comments or feedback from anyone else. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Ken O, you may also like to check the posts saved under `Livelihood' > in Useful Posts – lots of quotes from texts. > ====== 43177 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:18pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge Dear Joe, I just take up a couple of points In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Cummings" wrote: > > heaven, and to the devas gathered there. > Sariputta, the Buddha's main disciple, asked that this teaching be > given to the human world too, and he accumulated the texts. The Buddha > was reluctant as only devas would have the capacity to understand it. ======== This is slightly wrong. No mention of sariputta requesting this. And the reason it was first taught in the deva world is that it took 3 earth months - for the deavs this was only one long sitting. Nothing about it being only suitable for devas ====== > > > Historically the Abhidhamma did not appear until the 3rd Buddhist > council 200 years after the Buddha passed away. The style and the > language of the Abhidhamma also point to it being a later work by > Buddhist philosophers. ========= I often see this said. But no evidence ever presented. Strange idea: how could the monks invent something and then say - 'ok we will now call this the Buddhavacca'. Anyone who believes this must think early Theravada were liars of the highest order. ================ > I have read the Abhidhammattha Sangaha 4 or 5 times, read a few of > Nina Van Gorkham's books, read a selection of about 10 sections > (suttas if you like) from each of the 7 texts as recommended by one of > my teachers, and plodded through some large sections of the > Katthavathu which was interesting (especially as many of the > 'herasies' in it are in fact modern abhidhamma stances). ======= I have the katthavathhu and commentaries, I7ve never seen anything in it that (for example) Nina van Gorkom contradicts. Who is he thinking of here? Robertk 43178 From: nanapalo Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Initial Hello Dear Mrs Nina, Thank you for greeting me. Long time no listening. Wishing you and your family in happy life and please forward my regards to your husband too. Recently Dhamma Study Group Bogor has additional classes for bringing Abhidhamma at 7.30 am every Saturday, and additional Basic Buddhism at 7.00 pm. So every Saturday there are 4 session on Buddhism, i.e: 1. Discussion on Abhidhamma in daily life at 7.30 - 8.00 am and 8.00 - 9.30 am. This session is based on your books: "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and "Cetasikas"; also Kh. Sujin's "A Survey on Paramattha Dhamma." At 10 am - 1 pm some members go for Dana to Bhante in near shoulder of Salak Mountain 2. Basic Buddhism at 2 pm - 3.30 pm based on your book: "Buddhism in Daily Life" which we translated long years ago. 3. Intermediate Buddhism at 4 - 5.30 pm 4. Basic Buddhism at 7 - 8.30 pm Point 1 discussion members will extend the hour for discussing the Application of Abhidhamma in Management soft skill, either in Bank, Company etc. But we have no other references for this purpose other than your books. Greatly appreciate if you could give me some information regarding this. Many members on this discussion are from variety backgrounds. By the way, I would like to forward Mrs Sujata Tjiomas's regards to you. She is more than 80 years old woman and is still active learning and discussing Abhidhamma with me. Now her eyes are not so good as before, so mainly she doesn’t read books anymore. For your info, since few years ago she read your "Abhidhamma in daily life", "Cetasikas", "Pilgrimage to Sri Lanka", and also "Letters from Nina" which i gave to. She told me that your books give her more understanding and insight to face her turbulent life. Few weeks ago, while I met her at Magha Puja event in our vihara, she told this to me, and asked me for querying to you either any information regarding you and your health. May you and your family be happy. With metta, Selamat rodjali Jl. City (Ranggagading) No. 9 A Bogor 16123 Jabar, INDONESIA -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:vangorko@x...] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:35 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Initial Hello Hi Selamat, How nice to see you again. Do tell us about the Bogor group. How is everybody? Nina. op 10-03-2005 17:46 schreef nanapalo op nana_palo@c...: > Hi Lisa, > Welcome to this group. You can start with your subject or involve in > other's subject. Kindly please don’t hesitate to do this. > > Metta, > selamat 43179 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi Joe, op 12-03-2005 04:48 schreef Joe Cummings op joe@j...: > This post came from a regular particpant who > claims to have a background in Pali Buddhist studies. I had made > reference to the Abhidhamma in an earlier post, and I guess he felt he > needed to launch his 'challenge'. > > Would it be OK if I posted your comments there? N: Yes, that is fine. You are welcome. I did not get the four points were someone else's. How do you see the Abhidhamma yourself? Nina. 43180 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Initial Hello Dear Selamat, I am delighted with your letter and all the news. See below, op 12-03-2005 06:12 schreef nanapalo op nana_palo@c...: > Recently Dhamma Study Group Bogor has additional classes for bringing > Abhidhamma at 7.30 am every Saturday, ... N:Just wonderful to see all your activities. > Selamat: Point 1 discussion members will extend the hour for discussing the > Application of Abhidhamma in Management soft skill, either in Bank, > Company etc. But we have no other references for this purpose other than > your books. Greatly appreciate if you could give me some information > regarding this. N: As I understand, people like to know how to apply Abhidhamma in their work? They must face now and then difficult situations, contrarious people. It is good if they can give some examples of these to me, so that I can say more on this subject. What helps most of all: seeing one's own lobha, dosa and moha. These are the source of all problems in life, not the other people, not the situation. We like to blame others for our problems, but then we have aversion, dosa, while doing so. We have to be very patient and learn more about our different cittas. They arise and fall away so fast. Often we delude ourselves and believe that cittas are kusala, but immediately after kusala citta there is bound to be akusala citta, such as attachment to our kusala. This is really hard to see. The Abhidhamma helps us to see our hidden defilements. Yes, the Abhidhamma is for application, otherwise it would not be very useful. Good to hear more input from those working in a Bank! > S: By the way, I would like to forward Mrs Sujata Tjiomas's regards to you. > She is more than 80 years old woman and is still active learning and > discussing Abhidhamma with me. N: Yes, I was thinking of her and meant to ask you. A wonderful person, anumodana for her interest. My husband and I are well, but I lost my father recently, age 104. This is dukkha to us. My warmest regards and anumodana to you and your group, Nina. 43181 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 143 and Tiika, part 2, amoha. Hi Larry, op 12-03-2005 03:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: ... Amoha must know these qualities one at a time as the > components of the apparent whole of greed rooted consciousness. Knowing > all these parts, amoha can see directly that the apparent whole of the > various characteristics of greed rooted consciousness is empty of > ultimate characteristic (sabhava), in a word, anatta. N: Just one remark about sabhava: this means with a distinct nature or with a characteristic. I would not say: greed rooted consciousness is *empty* of ultimate characteristic (sabhava), because it has a sabhava, its own nature or characteristic. Through insight we can learn that all these dhammas with their own specific nature are anattaa. L: On a more > conventional level we can see this in our body. .... > An arm or leg is, itself, divisible into smaller parts, but it isn't > necessary for parts to be indivisible in order to see the emptiness of a > whole. N: We can learn to see the body as being constituted of different rupas by being aware and develop understanding of the characteristics that appear, such as hardness or heat. I quote from Co. to satipatthanasutta: L: I suspect that everything we experience is an apparent whole in > the sense that one consciousness moment is too small and quick to amount > to a noticeable event. N: You can call one citta an event. It is quick, indeed, but paññaa developed in vipassana can directly understand one such mental event. If we only see a whole group of different dhammas, this prevents us from realizing their arising and falling away. Nina. 43182 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: killing a sentient being Hi Howard, I am glad to see you, You formulated this post in a very careful, measured way. See below. op 11-03-2005 15:58 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: Sarah: Akusala is nobody it¹s just a moment,even for example, dropping a bomb >> in a war. It¹s just a moment of intention which is kamma. There¹s no need >> to think about past or future moments or a whole situation. > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Akusala states are nobody - quite impersonal - BUT. The big "BUT" > pertains to certain conventional matters (which, of course, reduce to mere > impersonal conditions). > (1) It is possible by ongoing contemplation and practice in guarding > the senses to reduce the akusala moments and increase the kusala moments (not > instantaneously, of course, but as a matter of gradual cultivation), and > (2) Acting on akusala inclinations, though literally done by "nobody" > is, conventionally speaking, acting that is performed by somebody, and taking > such actions had darn well better be resisted! There IS most assuredly the " > need to think about past or future moments or a whole situation," because that > is a good part of the basis on whether or not we will wreak havoc in the world > and in our day-to-day lives. N: Yes, Lodewijk and I often discuss this. In the ultimate sense there is no person, just citta, cetasika and rupa. But we live in the world with our fellowmen and have to take responsibilities. We should practise the Brahmaviharas and these are directed towards persons. Take also the Vinaya. The Buddha wanted to help the monks with all these rules so that they could develop the way leading to arahatship. Vinaya and satipatthana should go together. But, we see that the Buddha was htinking with great compassion about situations. He gave rules and also many modifications adapted to situations. He was so concerned about people's welfare. Sarah: As to the intention or kamma, it depends whether there is the intention to >> kill or whether it¹s one¹s duty to just drop the bomb, without knowing >> what will happen. There may not be any intention to kill people, but one >> may just be given the order. It¹s not necessary to have the intention to >> kill, but one has to drop it. >> > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Bombs are of the nature to destroy, not only property but also life. > Anyone who drops a bomb knows quite well that it is intended to result in > destruction, often of lives, and often of the lives of innocents. When someone > allows themselves to be put into such a situation, it is at that moment that > they> are succumbing to akusala. > Now I am not saying that I would not succumb. I am not saying that I > would not act wrongly, and I'm not saying that I DO not act wrongly. What I am > saying is that wrong action must be recognized for what it is, and wrong > action cannot be made right by pointing out that all that is involved are > impersonal conditions. To attempt to do so is a form of Buddhist > antinomianism. N: Yes, that is what Lodewijk points out. We should not say all the time just conditions, just a moment, etc. and not pay attention to situations. We have to, we live in the world. We think of people and situations, but this can be with akusala citta or with kusala citta, also with kusala citta and paññaa. H: I know that you are not doing this, but what you are saying is open to a > misinterpretation that would provide a Buddhist moral imprimatur to be stamped > on immoral acts, and I am simply cautioning against such a misinterpretation of what you > wrote. N: Yes, I quite agree. I also know that Sarah said before: we should not use conditions as an excuse, right. We should keep the middle way: developing understanding of dhammas one at a time, and also: develop metta and karuna for persons, in the situations of life. There is no contradiction here, these ways of approach should go together. The same wrong interpretation could arise as to kamma and vipaka. I cross the road with eyes closed, it depends on kamma what happens. I do not go to a doctor, it depends on kamma. Kh. Sujin said: we have to be careful as to safety and health. She also goes to a doctor. Nina. 43183 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? > Dear LC, > Hopefully Suan will see this post and let us know. > I looked at the whole article and what I suspect happened is that > the sayadaw took notes from a few different English > articles/translations and then composed his final version. His > English is good but perhaps not firm enough to detect the subtle > problem with that particular sentence. I have no doubt at all that > if he was writing in Burmese this wouldn't have happened: the > Sayadaw is well skilled in Abhidhamma and surely understands the > Theravada position on nibbana. > Robertk Dear?@Robertk It is good to know Suan might give us his post. Are there still 3 different kinds of views on Nibbana like below among Sangha in Myanmar ? ------------------------------------ http://www.nibbana.tk/ A DIALOGUE ON NIBBANA | | Teja (interposed.):We all are agreed that Nibbana is something, though we differ as to the nature of that. Agga: Yes. Burma, I mean the Burmese Buddhist world of philosophy, is divided into three camps, so to speak. There is the Shwegyin school which holds that Nibbana is spiritual mind, while the Okpo school advances the view that it is unique mind and body. The Ledi school, however, teaches that it is neither mind nor body but purely calm. Now, before deciding which of these three views is correct | | ------------------------------------ from LK 43184 From: djmathi Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 0:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi Nina, Does abhidhamma contain any instructions on practice techniques? I have seen many lists there and it put me off reading the abhidhamma, even though i do enjoy the suttas with its dialogue. I somehow feel that my dharma knowledge is incomplete without knowing the abhidhamma but at the same time i feel it is an needless complication as well as much can be understood through practice itself. metta matheesha <....> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: <...> > > > 4) Abhidhamma scholars feel superior in Buddhism to anyone who has > not > > > studied their courses > > N: Point 4: Just book study can lead to this. But the Abhidhamma is > not > > supposed to be book study, it is to be lived and practised. Then one > will > > discover many, many defilements, coarse and subtle, one had never > thought of > > before. One comes to see that lobha arises in a day more often than > one > > could dream of. Lobha can take any object through the six doorways. > And see > > the suttas: here we also find the teaching of kusala and akusala. > How lobha > > lures us all the time. <...> 43185 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? Dear LK, (and Azita), I appreciate your input. op 12-03-2005 01:57 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > I remember you said you were going to translate some article on > Anusaya from Thai to English . So I just read it through Useful post > Htm. > > You wrote on > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29228 > ----------------------- > Thus we see that there are latent tendencies in each of the cittas > that are arising and falling away in succession so long as they have > not been eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. > ----------------------- > Is not it possible for wisdom(panna) to clearly see each of the > latent tendencies like other nama and rupa ? > Or is there any aspect in each of cittas that even wisdom can never > see clearly. N: The latent tendencies are dormant, they do not arise with the akusala citta. Thus, they are not objects appearing at the present moment so that paññaa can directly know them. However, they condition the arising of akusala citta with these akusala cetasikas, such as wrong view, conceit, etc. Now we know by inference that we still have those latent tendencies, but in the course of insight paññaa will understand more deeply dhammas as conditioned dhammas. This insight is not thinking about conditions. Paññaa can penetrate all that is real, but, of course this is hard for us to understand now. Meanwhile, even knowing through intellectual understanding about the latent tendencies helps us in our life. Why do we and other people act in such or such a way? Akusala is rooted very deeply. If we see other people behaving wrongly, we have more understanding, less inclination to blame them. I remember that the late Phra Dhammadharo (this is for Azita!) had a novice as attendant who was very forgetful. He lost keys, and when it was mealtime, he did not lift (in Thai: jok) the gift of food so that the bhikkhu was allowed to take it and eat. For those who may not know: when one lifts it it is a sign that it has been given, and not just taken by him. Phra Dhammadharo used to say: he forgets but he just cannot act otherwise, he just cannot do it. He understood accumulated inclinations. This makes one more patient. Nina. 43186 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:14am Subject: Re: Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? Thanks for the link LC, I found it hard to follow the dialogue, a bit philosophical but interesting. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > > > > > Dear LC, > > Hopefully Suan will see this post and let us know. > > I looked at the whole article and what I suspect happened is that > > the sayadaw took notes from a few different English > > articles/translations and then composed his final version. His > > English is good but perhaps not firm enough to detect the subtle > > problem with that particular sentence. I have no doubt at all that > > if he was writing in Burmese this wouldn't have happened: the > > Sayadaw is well skilled in Abhidhamma and surely understands the > > Theravada position on nibbana. > > Robertk > > Dear?@Robertk > > It is good to know Suan might give us his post. > > > Are there still 3 different kinds of views on Nibbana like below > among Sangha in Myanmar ? > > > ------------------------------------ > http://www.nibbana.tk/ > > A DIALOGUE ON NIBBANA > > | > | > > Teja (interposed.):We all are agreed that Nibbana is something, > though we differ as to the nature of that. > > Agga: Yes. Burma, I mean the Burmese Buddhist world of philosophy, is > divided into three camps, so to speak. There is the Shwegyin school > which holds that Nibbana is spiritual mind, while the Okpo school > advances the view that it is unique mind and body. The Ledi school, > however, teaches that it is neither mind nor body but purely calm. > > Now, before deciding which of these three views is correct > > | > | > ------------------------------------ > > from LK 43187 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:51am Subject: Re: Nibbanam-Vinnanam ? Dear Robert K, Lokuttaracitta, Nina, Mike and all How are you? I wrote to Dr Lwin (Nibbana.com) about the Nibbana/consciousness matter soon after the issue has been exposed by Robert K. What I learnt after that letter was that Sayadaw was not in good health. So I did not follow up the matter. Robert K wrote: "I have no doubt at all that if he was writing in Burmese this wouldn't have happened: the Sayadaw is well skilled in Abhidhamma and surely understands the Theravada position on nibbana." I agree with Robert. One of the problem for users of English as a second language is that they tend to accept what they find in Pali- English dictionaries without having the time to think through the implications or consequences of their translations, especially if the translator happened to be someone like the Sayadaw in question, whose postition would make him extremely busy. Having said that, Nibbana can be really an issue for controversy even among the learned Burmese Theravada Sayadaws. This happened once during the reigns of the third or second last Burmese Kings. To settle the nibbana issue at that time, Dutiya Myopyingyi Sayadaw wrote a comprehensive critical studies on nibbana (Nibbanasaruupadiipaka) who was not happy about some Sayadaw's partial understanding and interpretation of nibbana as though it were a mental state or nothingness in the sense of a non-paramattha. Myopyingyi is the name of a monastery, and means the Great Monastery Outside the Town. Dutiya means the second, but does not refer to the monastery. It refers to the Sayadaw. Theravada Sayadaws are very unlike Mahayana monks. Theravada Sayadaws always tend to remain anonymous and avoid self-promotion while Mahayana monks tend to seek self-promotion and brand name for their personal opinions and doctrines. Thus, we seldom know the real personal names of the Burmese Theravada Sayadaws. Their names are usually the names of the monasteries. If there is the need to mention two or more successive Sayadaws from the same monastery, then they are called as the First Monasteryname Sayadaw, the Second Monasteryname Sayadaw and so on. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > > > Dear rjkjp > > Thank you for your informative help. > > Even a renowned sayadaw in Myanmar like him made such a rudimentary > error! > > I like to know what's happened between Suan and the Sayadaw afterward. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > > > Dear rjkjp > > Thank you for your informative help. > > Even a renowned sayadaw in Myanmar like him made such a rudimentary > error! > > I like to know what's happened between Suan and the Sayadaw afterward. > > ======== Dear LC, Hopefully Suan will see this post and let us know. I looked at the whole article and what I suspect happened is that the sayadaw took notes from a few different English articles/translations and then composed his final version. His English is good but perhaps not firm enough to detect the subtle problem with that particular sentence. I have no doubt at all that if he was writing in Burmese this wouldn't have happened: the Sayadaw is well skilled in Abhidhamma and surely understands the Theravada position on nibbana. Robertk 43188 From: Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: killing a sentient being Hi, Chris (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/11/05 11:12:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > Your post brings two thoughts to mind. Either murder, killing, > abortion are not such very great things ... just a flickering mind > moment - or we haven't the faintest idea of how dangerous all the > uncountable mind moments that flick by in any minute really are. > ====================== Excellent analysis, I think, Chris! I suspect we all favor the latter alternative. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 43189 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: Sila Visuddhi (purity of sila) Dear Sarah - You wrote: p.s Tep, thank you for giving me your kind note and the link to the Vera Sutta . You're welcome! I also appreciate your asking and enthusiasm. In the message # 43153 (March 11, 05) you wrote about 'purity of sila' as follows: S: "Firstly, as I understand, there are 9 different kinds of visuddhi (purity), which develop with satipatthana as stages of vipassana are reached. We know this is the reason that only the sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly or has no cause to abstain from not observing them. Sila visuddhi therefore only arises with satipatthana which is aware of nama and rupa. There is purification from the wrong idea or ignorance of dhammas as being a self ". S: "Like you always stress, Ken, H, I think the fourfold sila visuddhi needs to be seen as referring to moments of satipatthana. We can see here, under restraint of the senses (indriya samvara sila), for example, how all such moments of satipatthana are also a kind of sila". I think you might have put the carriage before the horse when you said, "the fourfold sila visuddhi needs to be seen as referring to moments of satipatthana." My understanding is that practicing the indriya-samvara-sila conditions satipatthana to be fulfilled later on when the four foundations of mindfulness are practiced according to the Maha-satipatthana Sutta. The fulfillment of indriya-samvara- sila leads to fulfillment of samma-sati in the sequential manner. This is explained in SN 46.6 Kundaliya Sutta. A summary of this sutta is available at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/guide- tipitaka/guidetipitaka-06.htm "The Buddha advises him to cultivate and frequently practise restraint of the five senses. This will establish the threefold good conduct in deed, word and thought. When the threefold good conduct is cultivated and frequently practised, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness will be established. When the Four Foundations of Mindfulness are well established, the Seven Factors of Enlightenment will be developed. When the Seven Factors of Enlightenment are developed and frequently applied, the. Fruits of the Path and liberation by knowledge will be achieved". Kindest regards, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi KenH ,Tep & All, > > When I was checking the reference on citta visuddhi and ditthi which Htoo > referred me to, I came across the following quote on sila visuddhi. > 43190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge Hi Djmathi, op 12-03-2005 09:32 schreef djmathi op matheeshag@h...: > Does abhidhamma contain any instructions on practice techniques? N: I would not call it techniques, that sounds too much like a rule: you have to do this or that. Whereas in reality citta, consciousness, arises just for a moment because of its own conditions and then it falls away. As I wrote to Selamat: D:I have seen many lists there and it put me off reading the abhidhamma, even though i do enjoy the suttas with its dialogue. N: You do not have to read all the Abhidhamma classifications, but you could take just a few lines at a time. Moreover, there are not only lists in the Abhidhamma, also descriptions. For example, we learn that citta rooted in attachment can be accompanied by happy feeling. Here we have something to consider. When we feel happy, we think that this must be good. Actually, happy feeling can arise with kusala citta, but it arises more often with akusala citta rooted in attachment. From the time we get up until we go to sleep, attachment arises most of the time. Attachment can also be accompanied by indifferent feeling and this is much harder to know. Attachment can be coarse but also more subtle. When we just want to walk or move around, there can be attachment already. When you consider this more you can see that there is Abhidhamma also in the suttas. We learn about attachment to all the objects experienced through the senses and the mind-door in the suttas. This is repeated many times. The Abhidhamma helps us to have a deeper understanding of the suttas. Is there a specific sutta you would like to discuss? Then we can see that Abhidhamma is contained in it. D: I somehow feel that my dharma knowledge is incomplete without knowing the > abhidhamma but at the same time i feel it is an needless > complication as well as much can be understood through practice > itself. N: Abhidhamma is not just the text, it is for application, for practice. It depends on the individual's inclination how much he will study. There is no need to force oneself. Even if one studies a little but considers well it is beneficial. Nina. 43191 From: Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Vism.XIV,144 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 144. (xvi)-(xvii) The tranquilizing of the body is 'tranquility of the body'. The tranquilizing of consciousness is 'tranquility of consciousness'. And here 'body' means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs.40). But both tranquility of the body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of the body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of the [mental] body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity and coolness of the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness. 43192 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:03pm Subject: Buddha Nature Hi, All, Thus begins a section on The Origins of the Buddha Nature in an article I was sent by one of my enchanting friends: The Buddha nature concept is a characteristic teaching of Mahayana Buddhism, but its origin can be traced back to early Buddhism. In an early scripture, for example, Shakyamuni talks about the "luminous mind" (Skt citta-prakrti) covered by the layers of delusion: "This mind ... is luminous, but it is defiled by tainst that come from without; that mind ... is luminous, but it is cleansed of taints that come from without". Shakyamuni explains that since people are unaware of their innate luminous mind, they do not eventry to cultivate their potential. So the brilliance of this luminous mind remains obscured. The following is part of my reply, mostly a rehashing of Luminous Mind UPs, with the hope that if I have misunderstood anything, someone here will correct me. Thanks for Shin's [Shin Yatomi] article on Buddha Nature, Paula. He mentions the "luminous mind" (Skt citta-prakrti) [I do not know the Sanskrit 'prakrti'. In Pali, the the word is 'pabhassaram'.], [...snip...] Mind, consciousness, citta ... same in Pali and Sanskrit... [I thought the Skt was citra?]... anyway, 'thought moment'. Each lasting how long? There is no continuous or lasting mind or other reality other than nibbaana. The text before our quote reads, "Monks, I know not of any other single thing so quick to change as the mind: insomuch that it is no easy thing to illustrate how quick to change it is." "This mind" and "that mind" in Shin's quote are not the same types of mind. To my understanding, the luminous mind here - "that mind" - is the bhavanga citta, the life-continuum or 'subconscious'. It is the same type of citta as the rebirth linking consciousness and takes the same object [mind always has an object] throughout our lives, but it is not really from this lifetime. Whenever there is not a sense-door or mind-door process citta with an object of this lifetime, there is bhavanga citta. Between processes or when we are fast asleep and 'totally out of this world', it is the bhavangas that maintain our being this person, this lifetime. [If this bhavanga or deep sleep or between processes citta is what we need to develop, wouldn't we be well advised to spend our lives comatose? I won't go into why the bhavangas can't be developed, but it has to do with them being vipaka or result of kamma.] It, "that mind", is undefiled by any processing of the objects of this lifetime (the taints that come from without); however, it is not luminous in the sense that there are no latent defilements there. If there is no ignorance, there is no rebirth [patisandhi citta], which is just another (bhavanga) mind moment. [The other type of bhavanga is the cuti citta or dying consciousness]. The bhavangas are luminous in the sense that the defilements [not to mention any wholesomeness] arise in the process cittas - "this mind" - specifically, during the moments of javana cittas, when kamma is accumulated. Bhavangas are considered to be outside the process or vithi cittas. If the argument runs along the lines that we are born pure and just need to uncover &/or develop that, we're back to the same bramanic atta-Atta theories Buddha rejected. Shin tries to say this atta-Atta thing is not the case. There is still the problem of identifying anything as me or mine rather than impersonal elements (dhammas, dhatus) that arise and fall according to conditions. I am tempted to go into a consideration of 'turning poisons to medicine'. As a figure of speech, it's not bad, but in actuality, one thing cannot become another. I think Buddha's teachings point to knowing the true natures of all realities, always at each present moment, which requires awareness or sati. Understanding, right or wrong, dictates how we live and what we become. It is understanding that needs to be developed in order that skillful states can arise and the defilements be abandoned, but now I'm veering off into the question of the mutual possession of the 10 worlds. Back to Shin... [...snip...] If it's not the bhavanga citta that is BuddhaNature, what is it? If it IS some kind of mind, how can it be said that it's inherent in the universe or our physical environment? This is rather long and I know you are busy. Just know I read the article, I guess. thanks again, connie 43193 From: Joe Cummings Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge > > > > Would it be OK if I posted your comments there? > N: Yes, that is fine. You are welcome. Thanks, Nina. > How do you see the Abhidhamma yourself? As I wrote in the other forum, I don't have the wisdom to be able to say that one basket of the Tipitaka is superior to the others. It's all good ... Hence I treat every verse I read and ponder with equal respect, and remain in awe of the entirety of the Suttanta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma. I understand how people might treat the Tipitaka as a 'buffet', picking and choosing according to which parts pleased them. But I trust the six Buddhist Councils, who have verified the Pali canon, more than I would trust my own inclinations or habituations. Put another way, I know enough to know that I don't know much at all. Ultimately, like you say, it's a matter of putting the Tipitaka to practise, not evaluating the relative merits of the three baskets based on how 'stodgy' or 'fluid' they might seem to the conditioned mind. The work that you, Ajahn Sujin and the rest of the DSG are doing remains important to me though, so I must admit attachment to the Abhidhammist view. Joe 43194 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 144 - Applied thinking/Vitakka, Sustained thinking/Vicaara(n) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)contd] *** As regards the jhåna-factor vicåra which is developed in samatha, this keeps the citta “anchored on” the meditation subject and inhibits the hindrance which is doubt. As we have seen, in the case of kåmåvacara cittas, both vitakka and vicåra arise together when they accompany the citta. In the case of jhånacittas however, a distinction has to be made. In the first stage of jhåna both vitakka and vicåra are needed in order to experience the meditation subject with absorption. Thus, both vitakka and vicåra accompany the rúpåvacara kusala citta, the rúpåvacara vipåkacitta and the rúpåvacara kiriyacitta of the first stage of jhån(1). In the second stage of jhåna one has acquired more skill in jhåna and vitakka is no longer needed in order to experience the meditation subject with absorption. At that stage vitakka has been abandoned, but vicåra still arises. In the subsequent stage of jhåna, which is more tranquil and more refined, also vicåra has been abandoned; it is no longer needed in order to experience the meditation subject with absorption. Some people have abandoned both vitakka and vicåra in the second stage of jhåna and thus for them there are only four stages of rúpa-jhåna instead of five. That is why the stages of jhåna can be counted in accordance with the four-fold system or the five-fold system. *** 1) Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 22. The rúpåvacara vipåkacitta is the result of the rúpåvacara kusala citta. The rúpåvacara kiriyacitta is the citta of the arahat who attains jhåna. ***** [Ch.8 Applied thinking(Vitakka),Sustained thinking(Vicaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 43195 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbaana Object, for Nina Hello Mike and Nina, This is very interesting. I had an idea that once nibbana was experienced "one" became a sotapanna, but did not know so much detail. Maybe this clears up our discussion about the subject, Mike. thank you for all your detailed posts, Nina. I find them so helpful Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Mike, > op 11-03-2005 15:37 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: > > > Is nibbaana the object of the mundane path? Does this occur with insight > > prior to stream-entry? > N: It is not the object of the Path that is lokiya, but change-of- lineage, > gotrabhuu, that is still lokiya citta, has as object nibbaana. However, it > does not eradicate defilements. After that lokuttara cittas arise. > Gotrabhuu is intermediate between lokiya and lokuttara. See T.A. p. 356: > consciousness occurs, overcoming the lineage of the ordinary person and > arriving at the lineage of the noble ones. > > Gotta is the clan, lineage of the ancestry. Bhuu: he has become. He becomes > another person, as we could say in conventional language. > Nina. 43196 From: Joe Cummings Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005 0:15am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma challenge Robert Here's one source that appears to support the notion that the Abhidhamma was written down during the 3rd Council: 1 -544/-480 Parinibbana (Skt: Parinirvana; death and final release) of the Buddha, at Kusinara (now Kusinagar, India) (age 80). {1,3} During the rains retreat following the Buddha's Parinibbana, the First Council convenes at Rajagaha, India, during which 500 arahant bhikkhus, led by Ven. Mahakassapa, gather to recite the entire body of the Buddha's teachings. The recitation of the Vinaya by Ven. Upali becomes accepted as the Vinaya Pitaka; the recitation of the Dhamma by Ven. Ananda becomes established as the Sutta Pitaka. {1,4} 100 -444/-380 100 years after the Buddha's Parinibbana the Second Council convenes in Vesali to discuss controversial points of Vinaya. The first schism of the Sangha occurs, in which the Mahasanghika school parts ways with the traditionalist Sthaviravadins. At issue is the Mahasanghika's reluctance to accept the Suttas and the Vinaya as the final authority on the Buddha's teachings. This schism marks the first beginnings of what would later evolve into Mahayana Buddhism, which would come to dominate Buddhism in northern Asia (China, Tibet, Japan, Korea). {1} 294 -250 Third Council is convened by King Asoka at Pataliputra (India). Disputes on points of doctrine lead to further schisms, spawning the Sarvastivadin and Vibhajjavadin sects. The Abhidhamma Pitaka is recited at the Council, along with additional sections of the Khuddaka Nikaya. The modern Pali Tipitaka is now essentially complete, although some scholars have suggested that at least two parts of the extant Canon—the Parivara in the Vinaya, and the Apadana in the Sutta—may date from a later period. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/history.html As I said before, for me it doesn't matter when the various books were compiled. That the six councils approved of them is enough for a non-arahant like myself! Joe {1, 4}--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Joe, > I just take up a couple of points > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Cummings" > wrote: > > > > heaven, and to the devas gathered there. > > Sariputta, the Buddha's main disciple, asked that this teaching be > > given to the human world too, and he accumulated the texts. The > Buddha > > was reluctant as only devas would have the capacity to understand > it. > ======== > > This is slightly wrong. No mention of sariputta requesting this. And > the reason it was first taught in the deva world is that it took 3 > earth months - for the deavs this was only one long sitting. > Nothing about it being only suitable for devas > ====== > > > > > > Historically the Abhidhamma did not appear until the 3rd Buddhist > > council 200 years after the Buddha passed away. The style and the > > language of the Abhidhamma also point to it being a later work by > > Buddhist philosophers. > > ========= > I often see this said. But no evidence ever presented. Strange idea: > how could the monks invent something and then say - 'ok we will now > call this the Buddhavacca'. Anyone who believes this must think > early Theravada were liars of the highest order. > ================ > > > > > I have read the Abhidhammattha Sangaha 4 or 5 times, read a few of > > Nina Van Gorkham's books, read a selection of about 10 sections > > (suttas if you like) from each of the 7 texts as recommended by > one of > > my teachers, and plodded through some large sections of the > > Katthavathu which was interesting (especially as many of the > > 'herasies' in it are in fact modern abhidhamma stances). > > ======= > I have the katthavathhu and commentaries, I7ve never seen anything > in it that (for example) Nina van Gorkom contradicts. Who is he > thinking of here? > Robertk 43197 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005 0:11am Subject: Kamma (was, NEW dialogue with Htoo) Hi, Too Thanks for the reply, and my apologies for the delay in responding. >I think the seat of our understanding on these specific points is the >angle of view. Conventionally if someone is not committing anything >there is no reason to be reborn. Once committed, then there will be >rebirth. > >The problem is the 'word' here ''committing''. > >What is committing? > > I don't know if this is the context you have in mind, but I think if we say a person 'commits' kamma we mean that the act in question is kamma patha (with all necessary factors present) or is an act that otherwise brings result. >For me as I do not take consideration into rebirth as only vipaka it >understand that 'committing' that I use is 'non-arahats' javana' that >is non-kiriya javana. > >What Sarah discussed with me was 'conventional topic kamma'. That is >kamma for average people. > >I do not know your third proposal. That is why I said above I need to >learn more. > > Well, my third proposal is just a tentative understanding of the texts, but with nothing specific to back it up, except for the fact that, in the classification of the 3 vatthas, kamma vattha and kilesa vattha are separate vatthas. I take kamma vattha to refer to the first and second of my 3 proposals, and kilesa vattha to refer to the third. If this distinction is not made, then I am not sure what the difference between the 2 vatthas would be. Any thoughts on this? Jon 43198 From: cosmique Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha Nature Dear Connie and all, connie wrote: In an early scripture, for example, Shakyamuni talks about the "luminous mind"... If it's not the bhavanga citta that is BuddhaNature, what is it? If it IS some kind of mind, how can it be said that it's inherent in the universe or our physical environment? Cosmique: Ven. Nyanananda touches on this issue in his sermons 7 and 8 on Nibbana. If you wish, click on http://www.beyondthenet.net/CALM/clm_main1.asp?content=nibbana Perhaps, it will shed some light on your question. I presume that his interpretation is not traditional but it never hurts to look at the issue from a different angle. Metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 43199 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 13, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Hi, Too >Htoo: I was thinking on the matter of learning of monks. When they >read some dhammas what are their javana cittas? I do not think simple >learning is akusala unless they develop attachment while learning. > > Well, we can say if it's not akusala it will be kusala, or we can say it it's not akusala it must be kusala; either is true, I suppose ;-)) But it seems to me that since akusala is the more prevalent state and the more likely to arise (and hence the more 'natural'), and is the one not to be encouraged, that it is more realistic to see things in the second way, to avoid the inherent tendency to see kusala (the desired state) where in fact there is akusala. You mention learning dhamma. I think the position is the same for monk or layperson. It may be true, speaking conventionally, to say that times of learning dhamma are times of more kusala, but in more 'absolute' (i.e., moment-to-moment) terms there is both kusala and akusala arising. The important thing is not to take one for the other, or to think, 'I'm learning dhamma, it must be kusala.' >I think it is better to leave 'Tiger Wood' here and we move to >Dhamma. But those who do not have much demerit would not face any bad >result as they are not doing bad things. ( Playing golf is not bad >things even though it is not kamma patha kusala.) > > I agree that, speaking conventionally, playing golf is not a 'bad thing', and so not bringing unpleasant result. But playing golf is certainly not to be considered as kusala either. So this would be an instance of the third proposal in my earlier post. Again, on a more 'absolute' basis, neither of the foregoing statements necessarily hold true. A person playing golf could cheat, get very angry with his opponent, or be carrying out a shady business strategy. Or, on the other hand, one could play golf as part of an act of dana. I don't think it is helpful to 'characterise' conventional situations as either one or the other; what is important is the reality of the moment. Jon