44200 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is memory a mano-dhamma? jonoabb Hi Dmytro Welcome to the list from me. oselok wrote: >Let me ask a simple question: > >is memory about an impression of sight or sound, an object of mano, or >an object of corresponding sense doors? > > Your question is not such a simple one ;-)). As far as I know, the texts do not describe in detail what happens when there is the remembering of a previously experienced sense-door object. As I understand it, at such time there is no experience of the relevant sense-door object, there is simply the mental act of remembering a previous experience that was marked at the time. So the consciousness at the moment would be mind-door consciousness, with concept as its object. Is this how you would see it? Jon 44201 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi everyone, I appreciate your timely response to my queries, and respect your faith in and knowledge of the post Tipiaka commentarial interpretation of jhana, but none of you are presenting any explicit canonial statement regarding the use of learning sign, counerpart sign, etc., to attain 'fixed samadhi' wherein the object is a mental image of form and not the actual form -- visible form or tactile form for example. Just to clarify, when I say 'Tipitaka' and 'canon' I mean Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka (but not the texts only included in Burmese edition), and the seven canonical texts of Abhidhamma Pitaka. And so my question still is: What's the canonical Tipitaka statement that explicitly validates and confirms that the object of jhanacitta is a counterpart sign (or whatever the commentators say it is), and not simply the visible form or tactile form. Also, what statement explicitly confirms that jhana is a state of 'fixed samadhi'? I am a faithful Dhamma practitioner myself, so please don't think I'm just trying to stir up trouble. I'd search the Abhidhamma texts myself, but I just recently purchased the Patisambhidamagga which cost over $100.00 Canadian funds with shipping, etc., and I simply can't afford to purchase the Dhammasangani and others at this time. I've joined this discussion group because the home page states: A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition.... And I'm interested in these three baskets of the Tipitaka right now, and not the commentaries, which I have some access to (Nina's teachings are available online, as are other teachings and some of the old commentaries themselves, for example), and so I'm specifically looking for canonical Tipitaka statements which support the commentarial methodology relating to jhana. Metta, Geoff 44202 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Hi all, I'm wondering why tranquility isn't the object of jhana. It seems to be the goal of jhana. Jhana factors are dropped in order to experience greater tranquility. If vitakka and vicara is the projection of a concept, how is the nimitta sustained when vitakka and vicara cease? Larry 44203 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Ken H: > Do you, for example, realise that the texts say all dhammas, with > the exception of Nibbana, are anicca and dukkha, and all dhammas, > including Nibbana, are anatta? Yes, and this is where Buddhism oversteps its authority, IMO. When Buddhism goes beyond being a psychological technique for eliminating suffering and begins to claim that it describes "things as they really are," then it is making scientific statements. These statements are either purely speculative (e.g. karma) or based on the evidence of contemplative introspection, which is very unreliable, as I described here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43520 Cosmique: > In order to get the complete picture, anicca has to be > complemented by dukkha and, especially, anatta. > These three aspects make up "seeing > things as they really are". The thrust of this discussion so far has to do with the fact that Buddhism, whatever its value as a technique for finding happiness, is not a complete picture of the world. I disagree that seeing the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta is "seeing things as they really are." If you see the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta, then you are purposefully shifting your emphasis onto certain aspects of the world for the psychological effect of reducing clinging & suffering. If you wanted to truly "see things as they really are," you need to go beyond contemplative Dhamma practice. Matthew 44204 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:59pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hello Matthew, Good to see you're still at it. Guess you didn't buy the holistic approach. Anyway, I don't have much else to say regarding brain/consciousness debate, as I pretty much agree with Wilber's Integral Psychology, which is a hybrid of holism and Buddhist Madhyamika, and anything else I'd have to say on the matter would just be a reiteration of what he's written, and what I've already expressed here. But curiosity got the better of me again when I read: > I disagree that seeing the world as anicca [...]is > "seeing things as they really are." Does science have evidence that any conditioned phenomenon isn't anicca? Geoff 44205 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Geoff Since the role of the commentaries is to elaborate on what is in the suttas, there will not always be an 'explicit canonical statement' of the kind you seem to be looking for. However, there is usually a reference, such as the one given by Nina, on which the commentarial reference hangs its hat. I'd be interested to know the basis for the idea that the object of jhana citta is the actual visible object rather than an image of it (if that's what you're suggesting). Jon sunnaloka wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I appreciate your timely response to my queries, and respect your >faith in and knowledge of the post Tipiaka commentarial >interpretation of jhana, but none of you are presenting any explicit >canonial statement regarding the use of learning sign, counerpart >sign, etc., to attain 'fixed samadhi' wherein the object is a mental >image of form and not the actual form -- visible form or tactile form >for example. > > 44206 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:11pm Subject: Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Jon: Nonetheless, to my understanding, the aim should be the >development of panna, rather than the absence of concepts/views. When >there is panna, there is no wrong conceptualising. In any event, is >there anything wrong with concepts per se? What would be the point of >having no concepts (if that were indeed possible) if there was no >developed insight? > >Joop: It's a matter of aims and means to that aim, to that end of >developping panna. I experience that trying to have no opinions, to >realize constantly that I'm conceptualizing, is a mean to that end >(if this method is according the 'texts' or not). > > If you're saying you've found a new means to the same end that the Buddha spoke about, then I'd have to say I'm sceptical ;-)) >Jon: Well, as long as you can keep your points related to the >Theravada tradition, we can discuss them. Perhaps you can use some >skilful means of discussion to do this ;-)) >… every list has it's declared scope, for obvious reasons. As long as >you can relate your comments to our group description, we can discuss >them. > >Joop: If you talk about the third of my proposed 'fields of >discussion (see under), that it's OK. When you say only the first and >second field, than my reaction is: that's not enough because on this >moment comparing Theravada and Mahayana is important to me. When I >state something and the reaction is: that's not so according the (in >fact: one) Theravada tradition, that's not inspiring enough. > > As I say, as long as you can relate your comments to the Theravada tradition, they won't be off-topic. Jon >Part of my proposal about the DSG-structure: > - More than one field of discussion. For example: > Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - >Buddhaghosa - Sujin > Technical questions about that frame of reference > Discussions about but not totally within that frame of reference > Broader Buddhistic discussions > > 44207 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Jon, > >Thanks for your reply. If in walking, these movements of walking are >all cittaja ruupa and they have to be so. > >If the cittas are all jhanas, then these walking movements have to be >abhinna's output. Otherwise walking cannot be done by jhanas. Because >the object of jhana is separate and not the movement and intention to >move. > >As there are infinite moments, jhana cittas may arise in between. So >these jhanas are not in the form of jhana-samapatti or jhana- >attainment. > > My understanding is that moments of samatha bhavana (e.g., metta, karuna) can occur at any time, regardless of the present activity. When it comes to jhana, the same may apply if the jhana is of sufficiently developed strength (e.g., there is mastery). Jon >In Myanmar, once there was a novice. He went alm round to 3 >differtent villages. This happened for a long time. Only when 3 >villagers of 3 different villages met, they talked about the4 novice >and came to know that the novice was going alm round at the same time. > >With Metta, > >Htoo Naing 44208 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Ken H: > Do you, for example, realise that the texts say all dhammas, with > the exception of Nibbana, are anicca and dukkha, and all dhammas, > including Nibbana, are anatta? Matt: Yes, and this is where Buddhism oversteps its authority, IMO. When Buddhism goes beyond being a psychological technique for eliminating suffering and begins to claim that it describes "things as they really are," then it is making scientific statements. These statements are either purely speculative (e.g. karma) or based on the evidence of contemplative introspection, which is very unreliable, as I described here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43520 --Evan That may be your opinion but it sounds to me that you are making it up as you go along. If Buddhism were just a psychology or philosophy, then it would fall way short of its stated objective. So no, it is way beyond that. Cosmique: > In order to get the complete picture, anicca has to be > complemented by dukkha and, especially, anatta. > These three aspects make up "seeing > things as they really are". Matt: The thrust of this discussion so far has to do with the fact that Buddhism, whatever its value as a technique for finding happiness, is not a complete picture of the world. I disagree that seeing the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta is "seeing things as they really are." If you see the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta, then you are purposefully shifting your emphasis onto certain aspects of the world for the psychological effect of reducing clinging & suffering. If you wanted to truly "see things as they really are," you need to go beyond contemplative Dhamma practice. Matthew --Evan Buddhism is NOT a technique for finding happiness. Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. Happiness is NOT the stated objective of Buddhism. Comtemplation is NOT Dhamma practice. Contemplation alone will NOT lead one to "see things as they really are". Am I going to quote dhamma to support my statements? No. I don't have the time. What I will do is state that you and I can happily agree to disagree because I will not in this lifetime see things as you do. Kind Regards, Evan Stamatopoulos 44209 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... ------------------------------------------------ E: > (the first 3 you mention I also understood about jhana). ------------------------------------------------- Ken: I wonder why you left out the fourth - "the Bodhisatta proved that jhana did not lead to final release from Dukkha." I was simply referring to the historical account where Gotama took leave of his jhana instructors, convinced that they had not shown him Nibbana. Here's a quote from 'The Buddha and His Teachings' by Narada Maha Thera: "Still he felt that his quest for the highest truth was not achieved. He had gained complete mastery of his mind, but his ultimate goal was far ahead. He was seeking for the highest, the Nibbana, the complete cessation of suffering, the total extinction of all forms of craving. Dissatisfied with this doctrine too, he departed thence, content therewith no longer. "He realised that his spiritual aspirations were far higher than those under whom he chose to learn. He realised that there was none capable enough to teach him what he yearned for - the highest truth. He also realised that the highest truth is to be found within oneself and ceased to seek external aid." In order to support his opinions, Ajahn Brahmavamso had to show that the Buddha had not learnt jhana under his two former teachers. He relied on the fact that the Bodhisatta later remembered having attained jhana as a small child. I admit, that does suggest his teachers had taught him something else. But do other writers draw that conclusion? Naradha certainly didn't, nor do any others I can think of. If I had to take a wild guess, I would say it related to the fact that the Buddha was entirely self-taught. It was a little bit like instances in our own lives where we have heard an explanation and said, "Oh yes, that's true! I knew that. It just slipped my mind." :-) --Evan Ken, I agree that the jhanas alone are not going to lead to liberation, however, a mind that can attain the jhanas (esp up to 4th jhana) is sharp enough to start to notice and pick apart the veil of delusion. Without a mind of that power, delusion cannot be dispelled. Before you say that one can attain liberation with insight alone, I will also agree with you before you get the change to say it. However, on the path to increasing one's insight ability, the mind's power/ability/flexibility increases to that equivalent to jhana. So it's a similar sort of process with a different emphasis. --------------------------------------------------------- E: > As I see it though, it's ok for us to theorise and draw conclusions from suttas, abbhidamma and commentaries but when a bikkhu speaks from experience, one has to listen and re-evaluate ones position. ---------------------------------------------------------- I agree that every bhikkhu should be respected for his dedication, but there is no reason to believe his understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. Besides, every meditation teacher (bhikkhu or not) seems to contradict every other mediation teacher in one way or another. Don't forget the story of 'the man, the boy and the donkey.' That ended in tragedy. :-) Ken H -- Evan Well, a Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni who can attain at will the 4 lower jhanas would have so much more insight and "mind capability" that there is no way I could see myself making a comment that his/her understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. Kind Regards, Evan 44210 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Welcome back, Geoff. I hope you enjoyed the retreat. Geoff: > Does science have evidence that any conditioned phenomenon isn't > anicca? No. Ultimately, all phenomena ("conditioned" or otherwise) are subject to entropy. Indeed, there is no evidence of *anything* unconditioned or deathless in nature. However, in my previous message in the thread, I pointed out that "permanence" and "impermanence" are relative terms. There are many characteristics of reality which, while impermanent on a geological or astronomical scale, still have relative permanence, at least from the narrow perspective of our human existence. See here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44166 Geoff: > I pretty much agree with Wilber's > Integral Psychology, which is a hybrid > of holism and Buddhist Madhyamika Ken Wilber's philosophy is imaginative and he seems to practice what he preaches. To be honest, I find his vast, complex explanatory scheme fairly impenetrable. But ultimately it is a speculative construction, unfalsifiable and unverifiable. I read an interview with Wilber in John Horgan's book "Rational Mysticism." I must admit that I found his apparent pride in his own spiritual attainment a bit disturbing. Not even the Dalai Lama, Wilber said, could maintain self-awareness during sleep as he, Wilber, could. He struck me as a bit of a megalomaniac. Matthew BTW, I would recommend Horgan's book to everyone on this list who is interesting in challenging their own assumptions. You can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/4symg Here's an excerpt from Anthony Campbell's review of the book: "The question that lies at the heart of the book is: do these altered states of consciousness tell us anything about ourselves, the universe, or the Meaning of Life? There is no doubt that people often feel themselves to have been vouchsafed knowledge of this kind, and mystical or ecstatic experiences may affect the whole subsequent course of people's lives. But does this guarantee that the knowledge so gained is authentic? If it is, should we, as some Eastern religions advocate, devote our lives to seeking 'enlightenment', or would this be simply to mire ourselves ever more deeply in a bog of self- deception? "The answer that Horgan reaches at the end of his exploration is, essentially, a negative one. Mystical experience, no matter how compelling it feels at the time, does not provide us with assurance of immortality or rebirth or of our cosmic significance. It also -- and this seems to me to be important -- does not endow those who attain it with superior moral wisdom: some apparently enlightened individuals have behaved as badly as anyone else. You may find this either liberating or deeply depressing, depending on how you look at it." 44211 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:53pm Subject: Vism.XIV,151 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 151. (xxix) The act of resolving66 is 'resolution'. It has the characteristic of conviction. Its function is not to grope. It is manifested as decisiveness. Its proximate cause is a thing to be convinced about. It should be regarded as like a boundary-post owing to its immovableness with respect to the object. -------------------------- Note 66. ' "The act of resolving" should be understood as the act of being convinced (sanni.t.thaana) about an object, not as trusting (pasaadana)' (Pm.489). See par.140. 44212 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan: > Buddhism is NOT a technique for finding happiness. > Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. > Happiness is NOT the stated objective > of Buddhism. Comtemplation is NOT Dhamma > practice. Contemplation alone > will NOT lead one to "see things as they really are". Am I going to > quote dhamma to support my statements? No. I don't have the time. Didn't the Buddha say that, just as the sea has but one flavor which is salty, so too his Dhamma has only one flavor -- liberation from suffering? Isn't the whole point of Buddhism the liberation from suffering? Matthew 44213 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... > Evan wrote: > In a talk given by Ajahn Brahmavamso, he relates a story of > one of his lay followers who went into meditation and > after hours was sent to hospital presumed dead. He was put > on an ECG and EEG and no signal could be > measured. > check out Ajahn Bramavamso's talk > http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/audio_downloads.htm Matt: Thanks for the link, Evan. I listened to the recording by Ajahn Brahmavamso. A very interesting anecdote. But, from a scientific point of view, that's all it is -- an anecdote. If someone were to reproduce what Brahmavamso claims occured (no EKG or EEG signal whatsoever, for hours) this would be an extraordinary discovery indeed. But as Carl Sagan used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." I am very skeptical of Brahmavamso's story, and for a number of reasons. First of all, a voluminous amount of research has been done on meditation (you can find a large database of research here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44099) Since the 1930s, scientists have been doing empirical studies of yoga and meditation. Many of the early researchers travelled throughout India with electro-encephalographs and accessory instruments to record respiration, skin temperature, skin conductance, and finger blood- volume changes in meditating yogis. There is a large amount of documentation of their findings, much of it summarized at the website above. Studies have confirmed that meditating yogis can produce remarkable changes in their autonomic functions. They can lower their EKG and pulse to very low levels. Amazing changes also occur in their EEG readings, including recurrent beta rhythms of 18-20 cycles per second. Similar studies have been done on practitioners in other traditions, including Japanese Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, TM and Theravadan Vipassana. However, none of these studies has ever documented a practitioner who was able to actually cease *all* of the electrical activity in the heart and/or brain. This would indeed be a miraculous feat since only a few minutes of oxygen deprivation is enough to do permanent brain damage. -- Evan No, that's not quite true. There have been studies published in scientific journals which, upon examination of people who have been pronounced clinically dead, have had out of body experiences and come back from them, the conclusion is that the mind exists beyond the electrical activity of the brain. Unfortunately I can't find the references at the moment but I will post them when I come across them again. Matt: I don't believe that the frantic emergency room described in Brahmavamso's story is a very reliable source of information. It should not be difficult to reproduce those events under more controlled conditions. But based on all the evidence we have from a great many other studies, I wouldn't hold my breath. Matthew P.S. With the advent of modern imaging techniques, such as PET and MRI, research on the physiology of meditation has gone way beyond mere EEG and brain waves. See this article for a summary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43610 -- Evan OK, I read the paragraph describing the research on Baime. Unfortunately, the experiment performed was too primitive to produce any serious results. If Baime could move his finger during meditation to trigger the recording equipment, he was not in jhana. In jhana there is no body, no brain, no space and no time. So there will be no finger to move. Let me tell you what sort of experiment will convince me. You will need 2 extremely experience Buddhist monks preferably Theravadin. One will be wired up to and EEG and MRI machine and he will start to meditate to get into the jhanas one by one. The role of the other experienced monk is to tell the researchers when the monk enters jhana and what level of jhana the meditating monk is in. This will give conclusive evidence of what the brain is doing during "real" meditation. If you have links to that sort of research I would be VERY interested to read it. Kind Regards, Evan 44214 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, I think it's pretty clear what is meant and what should be done. Only remaining question to me is whether or not someone can do it. - kel > Even the first few lines in chapter 111 need a lot of discussion, > understanding and reflection, I think. How about you? 44215 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... .... :-)) Metta, Sarah p.s Evan, are you in Australia too?Y ======== Sarah, Yes, I live in Melbourne (just down the road from the BSV). Kind Regards, Evan 44216 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] I am new and Learning Evan_Stamatopou... I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet, but I started my learning at: www.buddhanet.net Kind Regards, Evan 44217 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... > Ken, > > I > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf > > Kind Regards, > > Evan >======== Dear Evan, wow, I just read the article. Surprisng that a Theravada monk would write something like this. Do you know him, maybe you can help him to drop his beliefs? Robertk Robert, He is in Western Australia which is about 3,000 km from where I live. I have heard him talk but I don't really know him. He is quite well known and is quite experienced. As for helping him to do anything, I would not presume. Kind Regards, Evan 44218 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Sarah kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, > S: in short, I'm sticking to my story for now:-). I would not expect anything less. > S: references which make it clear that those with 2 roots cannot reach > enlightenment or attain jhanas. The rest we infer differently >according to our understanding. Yes that's what I'm told too. I don't infer anything, I just recite what I'm taught. > more specific references, we can just leave it open and agree we don't > know:-/. Apparently there isn't any conclusive references so I'll happily leave it at that also. - kel 44219 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Matthew, Philip K. Dick was a schizophrenic science fiction writer. What "authority" does he have to define "reality" - although I do think it's not a bad attempt but not a very rigorous one. Kind Regards, Evan PS I checked the Oxford dictionary definition but as many dictionary definitions it was rather vague also hence why I haven't reproduced it here. Jon: > I suspect we are working from different definitions of 'reality'. > What's yours? I'm not so sure if it's wise to work from a pre-conceived definition of 'reality'. So I'll just offer Philip K. Dick's open-ended definition: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick (American writer, 1928-1982) Matthew Miller 44220 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Cosmique: > I hope you don't mind my butting in for a while. Butt away! Welcome onboard! > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). > ... What matters is that they all have the above > three characteristics. Matthew: Buddhism is an art of happiness. It is concerned with reality only insofar as it helps people eliminate suffering and find true happiness. To this end, it uses various techniques, such as emphasizing the anicca aspects of the world. --Evan No! Buddhism is NOT an art of happiness (I have said this in another of my responses but I do want to make my point clear so, like the Buddha in the suttas, I will repeat myself). Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. Matthew: However, seeing the world as anicca is not a complete picture of "the way things are," nor does it aspire to be. It is a psychological technique of shifting emphasis onto the impermanent aspects of life so that our minds do not cling to things and produce suffering. Of course, if we are trying to understand the world "as it really is", without the agenda of making people happy, we can see that the universe is indifferent to human interests. The universe itself is neither dukkha nor non-dukkha. Nor is it pure anicca; there are relative degrees of permanence in nature. What would pure impermanence be like? A kaleidoscopic, evanescent chaos? However, there are certain characteristics of reality which, while ultimately impermanent, still have relative permanence, at least from the narrow perspective of our human existence. The sun stays pretty much the same throughout our brief lives, as do the laws of physics, the DNA in our cells, as well as most of the important factors that shape our lives. Sure, we can choose to focus on the changing aspects of existence, if that makes us cling & suffer less, but we do so by ignoring the relatively unchanging aspects of the world. --Evan "Relative unchanging aspects"? I am used to more scientific and rigorous analysis that this from you Matthew. Surely something is either permanent or it is not - there is no relativity about it. Just because we view something from an extremely short lifespan it doesn't mean that changes do not occur, however slow. I know that is what you are saying here but I do feel that you are skirting around saying that all conditioned things are impermanent. If that is what you mean, then please say it. Cosmique: > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). Matthew: An enlightened infant? Hmm. I'm not sure how useful it would be for a 3 month-old to see its mother as anicca and anatta. Indeed, in the womb, the world is arguably completely anicca and anatta. The development of a sense of permanence and self in childhood are crucial for survival. The Tibetan Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa once remarked that the philosophy of "no-self" should not be foisted on very small children. In childhood, he said, one should "jazz oneself up" (his words) and build a strong sense of self-esteem (atta). To do otherwise would cause maladaption and suffering. Matthew --Evan Kind Regards, Evan 44221 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Hi Geoff, Regarding a sutta precedent for jhana nimitta see MN 121.5: "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of human being, not attending to the perception of wilderness -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. Just as a bull's hide is stretched free from wrinkles with a hundred stakes, even so -- without attending to all the ridges & hollows, the river ravines, the tracts of stumps & thorns, the craggy irregularities of this earth -- he attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. Whatever disturbances would exist based on the perception of wilderness are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of earth.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of wilderness. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of earth.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure. L: In MN 77.24&25 kasina meditation and jhana seem to be different, and so, open to interpretation what this means. Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn121.html 44222 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Evan: > Buddhism is NOT a technique for finding happiness. > Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. > Happiness is NOT the stated objective > of Buddhism. Comtemplation is NOT Dhamma > practice. Contemplation alone > will NOT lead one to "see things as they really are". Am I going to > quote dhamma to support my statements? No. I don't have the time. Matthew: Didn't the Buddha say that, just as the sea has but one flavor which is salty, so too his Dhamma has only one flavor -- liberation from suffering? Isn't the whole point of Buddhism the liberation from suffering? Matthew --Evan Matthew, Yes that is true, but happiness is not liberation. All I was saying is that the Buddha taught the path to liberation from suffering, not the path to happiness although happiness comes with liberation. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I don't think that happiness and liberation are the same thing - they are related in that happiness is required for liberation. Kind Regards, Evan 44223 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Evan christine_forsy... Hello Evan, Glad to see another aussie; even Gum Suckers are welcome :-) Actually more than welcome ... this place is too top-heavy with Banana Benders. :-) [KenH, AndrewT, Azita, Steve, and I] onya, Chris 44224 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Evan Evan_Stamatopou... Hello Evan, Glad to see another aussie; even Gum Suckers are welcome :-) Actually more than welcome ... this place is too top-heavy with Banana Benders. :-) [KenH, AndrewT, Azita, Steve, and I] onya, Chris Hi Chris, Thanks for the welcome but you must excuse my ignorance on 2 terms you have used: Gum Suckers and Banana Benders. Could you "Please explain?" Kind Regards, Evan 44225 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evan christine_forsy... Hello Evan, How can this be? An australian who doesn't know the terms for those living in other states? Whatever it is that's happening in Victoria is more serious than we thought ... :-) must be too much aerial ping-pong .. but I'm afraid to go on in case I get another please explain. :-) A thought ... have you lived in Australia all your life? metta, Chris from Queensland --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > > Hello Evan, > > Glad to see another aussie; even Gum Suckers are welcome :-) Actually > more than welcome ... this place is too top-heavy with Banana > Benders. :-) [KenH, AndrewT, Azita, Steve, and I] > > onya, > Chris > > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for the welcome but you must excuse my ignorance on 2 terms you > have used: Gum Suckers and Banana Benders. > > Could you "Please explain?" > > Kind Regards, > > Evan 44226 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Re: New view on satipatthana 1 lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: We had a big laugh in Bkk last week when one friend was talking about > the metta he had for Jon when he was far, far away (as opposed to sitting > near him in a dhamma discussion:-)). The point was that metta is > friendliness or kindness, without it being any special person when we're > on the bus, in the same room, going to the store and so on. It's like > generosity – we can think about it in our bedroom, but what about the > actual sharing and giving when we have opportunities? (This doesn't mean > you can't have kind thoughts or metta even at other times on your own, but > whether on our own or with people, the near enemy of attachment is always > nearby, I think). Good simile. Metta was something that I felt I could generate for someone at any time. You bring up generosity. This is not something that I've had a good 'guide' on doing (as w/ metta), rather something I can perform outright, or, on the other end, try to cultivate by reducing my greed. And when I say perform outright, I mean doing it because of knowing its benefits, such as giving some gift(s) to the Sangha, or letting someone step in line before me, which are easy to do, but to counter my greedy character I know I can't just 'think' about generosity in my free time and have it work any better. I really have the same view of metta now one year later, where it's been so long that I think reciting phrases in my mind over & over would just be tiring, so I'd want a clean start. However, I have recently, had compassion for someone spontaneously by identifying with his suffering. This is something I could try to extend on and improve from. If I get you right, indeed attachment is always at the fore, but at least from my experience, if we get some love going, it takes on a life of its own. If anyone knows something similar about generosity, or even renunciation, please share. [Deliberate, intentional, and directed practise] > S: This is not how I understand the passages. See my last message > (Musings3). Noted your points, but I'll refer you to Kel's post from Friday, and offer the four foundations of mindfulness as additional examples on how even non-aryans may follow instructions to practise on. Indeed, how else would they be aryans if they had not developed concentration? I think such following of instructions are motivated by > clinging to Self – trying to have metta, repulsiveness for the body and so > on, rather than understanding what is conditioned at this very moment of > trying so hard. Well, then maybe this breaks from the 'trying to understand a dhamma at this very moment' purpose for a bit. But I've certainly had success with a method of trying to really feel a person's personality and situation and generate metta based on that. You couldn't get me to think twice about its efficacy. So perhaps we can use a little of both methods, not be so strict with 'one dhamma in the present moment.' Like I think of how my practise on the path should be, and I see myself practising the four foundations of mindfulness, as I have said before, being mindful in the present moment, yet also taking some time aside to generate metta or karuna for beings near or far. Now with my recent experience with karuna I'd say it's possible to have it arise without any 'trying' but it is also possible for it to arise with deliberate methods. I even have a book, "The Four Sublime States," by Nyanaponika Thera, and have done similar 'metta-creation' work before. > ..... > > I brought up the additional example of having read a PDF where the > > instructor recommended one find > > a characteristic or manifestation of each element in a specific part of > > the body, say, the mouth, and go > > on to try to detect similar qualities throughout the body to eventually > > be mindful of the elements > > throughuot the entire body. This, too, is sort of done by a person > > intentionally, a deliberate practise. > > However this is not just waiting for conditions to come up. > ... > S: As you point out, this is `done by a person intentionally'. It is not > the understanding of elements as anatta, as conditioned dhammas. Awareness > and understanding have to develop with detachment, not selection. > .... Would reference the above text but not sure what we are trying to identify dhammas *as* in the four elements reflection. As they are, I suppose, but towards what end specifically, I cannot be sure. Insight-knowledges? Access concentration? Come to think of it, if we do this specific practise deliberately, we will come to have less of a self-view of ourselves at all, not just in the exact moment. So again, some 'time out' from understanding each present dhamma as anatta and so forth, might be called for here. > .... > S: When it's something `we must deliberately do', it's not understanding > in daily life. Did you read the discussion between Ken H and Htoo on this > topic? It was very good. Being aware of realities appearing now is not the > same as having a special practice as you describe. No self can be aware Sarah, I haven't read your posts, I'm a bit overflooded here as a matter of fact, but again, what is the ultimate aim of practise? If we can have a worthy goal in mind and our volition and other faculties can work towards deliberate practise perhaps, even, developing awareness, we can come to a still greater view of non-self. This is what the Buddha wants us to acheive with the reflection on the four great elements, I believe. Or at least one of the aims as I've read it. I guess I shouldn't say as I don't know the ultimate aim specifically had in mind for this practise, even more response from Bhikkhu Bodhi would help me formulate some ideas there. > and if there's any trying to be aware, the reality is attachment, not > awareness. Well I guess this brings us back to our fundamental stands on what awareness and mindfulness are. Again, I'll bring up the examples of having non-conceptual awareness developed for both inside and outself of this body by seated breathing meditation, and, of mindful awareness pervading nearly every spot in all directions in a single room, the apparent cause only being reading that mindful awareness is part of the gradual training and trying to act in accordance with it. (Explicitly, mindfulness was gained first, sort of making everything feel more real, and awareness pervaded the room later when I was seated at a desk). Soo we've got a little work to do in this department, I think. > .... > > I have given you the example of sati, of how I have established > > mindfulness of the entire body, which > > transfers over to mindfulness in sitting meditation. Nina proposes to > > counter ignorance or aversion we > > need mindfulness. Again, what do you see this mindfulness as. > .... > S: What you describe as mindfulness, I see as a special focusing. The > mindfulness which counters ingnorance or aversion is not any focusing, but > the momentary awareness which arises, is aware of any dhamma appearing > (without any selection) and falls away immediately. If there is a wish or > intention for it to arise or be aware of a particular object such as > sensations in the body, this will be a hindrance, as I see it. And here we are. Please describe your concept of mindfulness in greater detail. Ie its causes, characteristics, its scope, maybe we can get somewhere. > .... > S: the four foundations are the proximate cause: hardness, softness, heat, > cold, feeling, anger, attachment, seeing, visible object – these are > examples of dhammas included in the four foundations. Without the arising > of such dhammas, mindfulness cannot be mindful when one appears (i.e is > the object of the javana cittas). It's impossible for mindfulness or any > other dhamma to be `aroused intentionally' except in our imaginations. Well aren't all dhammas 'arising' and passing each moment? When you say knowing the arising and passing of a dhamma isn't it only meant 'each one as it arises to'.. say attention? Or a specific citta? Couldn't you see it being "aroused intentionally" by a specific method that is more than just the element of "wishing for"? > .... > >Please forgive me > > if I addressed this in one of > > the other two posts on this thread, I just feel it's an essesntial > > point. If you can, please go back to > > where I described this originally and think about it. We should be able > > to reconcile these two views, > > don't you think? > ... > S: I agree it is THE essential point. Whilst we continue to think that > dhammas can be controlled or that there is a self to do this, there won't > be any awareness of namas and rupas as elements. I don't honestly think > there is any reconciliation between the ideas of following a manual to be > aware of particular objects (often not even dhammas) in order and > understanding what satipatthana really means. Well, vipassana meditation has helped me realize less 'control' of things is to be had and I would still say certain processes in all their non-selfness can be called upon and aroused while before all self-belief is eradicated. And what can I say Sarah, about following a manual or instruction. I have all my experience backing this up. I have generated a mile's worth of harmlessness, metta for large numbers of people, some sort of mindfulness or awareness for entire sets of reality appearing to me as they happen, mindfulness of the qualities of my mind (which the Buddha even praises-- see Maha-mangala sutta), and large amounts of awareness, still with some self-belief. In fact as I see it the way to eradicate self-belief all together is just by following this course of practise. > <....> > > Right but can't we endeavor to learn about different realities by way of > > thinking ourselves into learning > > about them, say, by reading about the characteristics of dosa, moha, and > > lobha, in > > Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life?' > .... > S: It's helpful, very helpful, to read and reflect on different realities > as you're doing. I'm not exactly sure of your Qu, but if you're wondering > if we can think ourselves into being aware of dhammas, then the answer is > no. We can read and consider in order to understand dhammas as anatta > better, but not specially try to experience what we read about. Sure we can think ourselves through things. You had to think to pay for CMA didn't you? Similarly we can start with thinking and get ourselves to a point where we can be more aware and so on. But then again I don't want to touch on where we talk about self-belief-motivated practise eventually eliminating belief of self. Did we ever settle that? Looks like this is becoming a big stumbling block. > .... > > I'm with you for non-conceptual awareness, but would you believe me if a > > noble one told me to > > note 'aversion, aversion' where it appears? > .... > S: I would say, be wary of any advice in the name of `a noble one'. See my > Musings2 post. Noting `aversion, aversion' where it appears is not the > development of satipatthana as I understand. Andrew, please don't be > misled by what you've heard about others' attainments. Well no one told me he's a noble one but he certainly seemed to act in a way completely in accord with dhamma (righteous conduct) and made a sensible statement before that about the dhamma. I guess I just assumed. But even if he's not arya, isn't it good to see a True Man, as they're called in the suttas? His point seems to be OK. I brought up the example of waiting for the bus that morning and having the sun make me want to walk away and this is what he told me to do. Isn't anger/annoyance and so on just aversion? Recognizing it as such seems fine to me, I guess you could say calling it something isn't recognizing it, but it's better to label it and act equanimiously than letting it go unknown and influence me to do something rooted in aversion, don't you think? No- Soul, Andrew 44227 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:56pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan: > No, that's not quite true. There have been studies published in > scientific journals which, upon examination of people who have been > pronounced clinically dead, have had out of body experiences > and come > back from them, the conclusion is that the mind exists beyond the > electrical activity of the brain. Unfortunately I can't find the > references at the moment but I will post them when I come across > them > again. I recommend that you take a look at Susan Blackmore's "Dying to Live: Near Death Experiences": http://tinyurl.com/56muw In this well-documented and well-researched book, Blackmore takes a comprehensive and critical look at all of the supposed evidence for near-death out-of-body experiences and demonstrates how there is nothing to suggest that these are anything other than neurological phenomena. Matthew 44228 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:09pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan: > Yes that is true, but happiness is not liberation. > All I was saying is > that the Buddha taught the path to liberation > from suffering, not the > path to happiness although happiness comes > with liberation. Maybe I'm > splitting hairs but I don't think that > happiness and liberation are the > same thing - they are related in that > happiness is required for > liberation. Yes, I think that this is just fussing over semantics. It was the Dalai Lama who defined Buddhism as an "Art of Happiness." Whether you agree or disagree depends on how you define happiness, I suppose. Matthew 44229 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:10pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Matthew, We were talking about all conditioned dhammas' being anicca and dukkha; and all dhammas' being anatta. You wrote: ------------------------ M: > Yes, and this is where Buddhism oversteps its authority, IMO. When Buddhism goes beyond being a psychological technique for eliminating suffering and begins to claim that it describes "things as they really are," then it is making scientific statements. ------------------------- I can't help agreeing to some extent. For example, if I want to understand the physics and the chemistry of the sun, moon and planets, I wouldn't look to the Pali Canon. But no answers that I obtain from conventional science can possibly affect the Dhamma in any way. For example, when science proved that matter was ultimately quarks, strings and gluons that had absolutely no bearing on the Buddha's explanation of rupa. Someone might ask, was the Buddha aware of quarks, strings and gluons? I think the answer would be, "No," because no one ever asked him. If he had been asked, he could have turned his mind to the question and immediately answered, "They are concepts that will be known to certain physical sciences of the twentieth century." But no one asked those scientific questions, and he didn't make those scientific statements because they have absolutely no bearing on the Dhamma. Quarks, strings, and gluons - along with all other objects known to the conventional sciences - are not dhammas: they have none of the ti-lakkhana (anicca, dukkha and anatta). If our civilisation can survive long enough, new sub-atomic objects will be discovered, but they too will not be dhammas. --------------------------------- M: > These statements are either purely speculative (e.g. karma) or based on the evidence of contemplative introspection, which is very unreliable, as I described here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43520 --------------------------------- I have read that message. Firstly, it assumes that a scientist's view of the Dhamma is different to that of a non-scientist. That is incorrect - a scientist can be just as good a Buddhist as anyone can. It is not a matter of suspending "better (scientific) judgement" because the Dhamma deals with realities beyond the field of conventional knowledge. Secondly, you wrongly represented the Abhidhamma as saying that "introspective access to one's mental states cannot be erroneous or, at least, that it overrides all other evidence." That is so foreign to my understanding of the Abhidhamma that I hardly know how to relate to it. Our ideas of (introspective access to) nama and rupa are so erroneous as to be laughable. That is why we are called uninstructed worldlings - run-of-the-mill, ordinary, many- folk. --------------------------------------- M: > The thrust of this discussion so far has to do with the fact that Buddhism, whatever its value as a technique for finding happiness, is not a complete picture of the world. I disagree that seeing the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta is "seeing things as they really are." ------------------------------------------------------------- I think I understand your point, and the answer is simple (although many modern-day Buddhists reject it): the world as we know it is neither anicca, dukkha nor anatta. You wrote to Cosmique in your previous post about a child seeing its mother as anicca, and about the sun's having a degree of permanence. You were right to query concepts of anicca in those instances because they are not what the Buddha taught and they are wrong. As I keep saying, conceptual objects are not dhammas, and so they are neither anicca, dukkha nor anatta. ----------------------- M: > If you see the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta, then you are purposefully shifting your emphasis onto certain aspects of the world for the psychological effect of reducing clinging & suffering. ----------------------- I can't argue with that. Modern-day Buddhism, religious mumbo jumbo and New Age therapies all involve psychological techniques for reducing clinging and suffering. Let's not confuse any of those things with the Dhamma that is found in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. ---------------------------------------- M: > If you wanted to truly "see things as they really are," you need to go beyond contemplative Dhamma practice. --------------------------------------- We agree, but for different reasons. Ken H 44230 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Evan Evan_Stamatopou... Hello Evan, How can this be? An australian who doesn't know the terms for those living in other states? Whatever it is that's happening in Victoria is more serious than we thought ... :-) must be too much aerial ping-pong .. but I'm afraid to go on in case I get another please explain. :-) A thought ... have you lived in Australia all your life? metta, Chris from Queensland Chris, Yes, I have lived in Australia all my life but haven't heard those terms before. I have only recently heard some terms like "Flat out like a lizard drinking water" which I use all the time now. So I assume that banana benders are from Qld but the other term must refer to Vics? Kind Regards, Evan 44231 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:53pm Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! ...Khun Bundit sukinderpal Dear Khun Bundit, Sawadee Krap and welcome to DSG. Are you living in Thailand, Bangkok? Some of us get together to discuss Dhamma every Saturday. I would be glad if you will find the time to join us sometime. We usually do it in English, but often we mix Thai in too. So even if you're English is not very good, this is not a problem. :-) You can contact me on my mobile if you wish. The no. is 01 8254012. Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" wrote: > > > > > > > mai dai ... nit noi ... di-chun yak rian pa sa thai. > > > > Some people on this List speak Thai. They are: Jon, Mom Betty, > > Sukin, Azita, RobK, Matt R, Num, Kom and others. I hope they will > > write and introduce themselves. > > > > Please see: > > http://www.dhammahome.com/index.php?lang=0 > > > > metta, > > Chris > > > thank you to all. > > and your matta ,too. 44232 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:55pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 163- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (m) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] As we read in the definition of the Visuddhimagga, the proximate cause of viriya is “a sense of urgency or grounds for the initiation of energy”. Birth, old age and death can remind us of the urgency to develop right understanding which eventually will lead to freedom from the cycle of birth and death. When we are “urged” to be mindful of realities, there is no self who makes an effort to be mindful. Right effort which is a reality arising because of its own conditions strengthens and supports the citta with mindfulness. There is energy, courage and perseverance to develop the eightfold Path since this is the only way leading to the end of dukkha. The Visuddhimagga and the Atthasåliní, when they mention that the proximate cause of viriya is a sense of urgency, quote the words, “bestirred, he strives wisely”, from a sutta of the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, Chapter XII, §3, The Goad). In this sutta we read about four kinds of horses. One horse is already stirred to activity when he sees the shadow of the goadstick, whereas another one is not stirred by that, but is only stirred when his coat is pricked by the goad. Another one is stirred only when his flesh is pierced by the goad. We read about the fourth kind of horse: * "Once more, monks, we may have a goodly thorough-bred steed, which is stirred, feels agitation neither at the sight of the goadstick nor when his coat is pricked, nor yet when his flesh is pierced with the goadstick; but when he is pierced to the very bone he is stirred…" ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44233 From: cosmique Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma cosmique1000 Hi all, Matthew Miller wrote: +++++I disagree that seeing the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta is "seeing things as they really are." If you see the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta, then you are purposefully shifting your emphasis onto certain aspects of the world for the psychological effect of reducing clinging & suffering. If you wanted to truly "see things as they really are," you need to go beyond contemplative Dhamma practice.++++++++++ To me Buddha is more of a psychiatrist rather than (meta-) physician. If a patient comes to a psychiatrist complaining that he suffers from depression, anger, neurosis, etc., the doctor will give him an appropriate method to relieve his mental pain. If the patient begin to persistently ask the doctor about the matter make-up, electrons, protons, or who created the world, or whether this world is eternal or not, the doctor will send the patient to a chemist or physicist, or astronomer, or a witch doctor. If the psychologist begins to speculate in an attempt to answer his patient’s numerous questions, he will get beyond his professional scope. And his reasoning might develop into a set of beliefs, or superstitions about this and that. Buddha said that he knew a lot of things about the world, but he revealed only what was beneficial for the cessation of suffering. When Buddhism tries to explain what is beyond its original purpose it takes risk to become a religious system like Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc. whose doctrines are not always in harmony with the science. This being the case, Buddha Dhamma might loose its universal applicability and relevance for all times end epochs. If we read numerous volumes of In Buddhist literature as to the nature of the Universe, science, etc., we may find a lot funny and naive things (not taught by Buddha, by the way) that no one will accept today. Does it mean that Buddhism is wrong? Absolutely not! As a technique, as a vision that relieves sufferings and brings mental peace, it is right and effective for all places and times. Even if we assume that there are ugly green-faced aliens living somewhere out there, they will find the Dhamma relevant too because suffering is universal, but metaphysics varies from system to system, from place to place. Every new scientific discovery in the future might wipe away a metaphysical or religious view widely accepted today. It does not threaten Buddhism at all, if it clings to its original task set forth by Gotama, that is, teaching suffering and cessation of suffering without metaphysics. Take for example, Christianity. Fundamentalists try their utmost to prove that the Earth was created 6000 years ago (!) and all this kind of stuff. Is there any serious scientist who believes in this theory? But why do they fight for this theory? Because their religion claims to have all answers as to astronomy, physics chemistry, history, etc. And if the modern science proves that at least one of the their theories is wrong, the whole building of their faith is going to collapse and the Bible will become just a good book of Jewish folklore. However, the core of the Buddha dhamma is akalika, beyond time, i.e. it is applicable for all times no matter what scientific discoveries were, are, or will be. Metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 44234 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > I recommend that you take a look at Susan Blackmore's "Dying to Live: > Near Death Experiences": > > http://tinyurl.com/56muw > > In this well-documented and well-researched book, Blackmore takes a > comprehensive and critical look at all of the supposed evidence for > near-death out-of-body experiences and demonstrates how there is > nothing to suggest that these are anything other than neurological > phenomena. > > Matthew I haven't read this book by Susan Blackmore but I did some Internet research on her background. After having an out-of-body experience she began a thirty year career as a parapsychologist, studying everything strange and bizarre. Finally, after being fed up with "having an open mind" about everything, as she explains, she decides to go to the other extreme to prove that there isn't anything going on beyond the physical brain: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/ http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html Now, she is doing research into consciousness and, it appears to me, that she is drawing conclusions about consciousness with the mistaken notion that there is an abiding self: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/jcs02.htm In other words, I do not believe that she is a credible, scientific source for your contentions. Her viewpoint is biased by personal frustrations and disappointments; additionally, she lacks an extensive background in scientific research . Do you happen to have any other sources for your contention? BTW, the near death experience is when the consciousness is going to be re-established in another loka (realm) but the body doesn't die after all so the consciousness isn't re-established. People who have near death experiences report experiencing heavenly realms and hellish realms, according to their kamma. Perhaps you might like to read this article about the 31 Planes of Existence: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf Metta, James 44235 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 0:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... James, That is an excellent document on the 31 planes of existence which I read early on in my Buddhist path. Well recommended! Kind Regards, Evan James: Perhaps you might like to read this article about the 31 Planes of Existence: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf Metta, James 44236 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:34am Subject: Musings5 - Burning sarahprocterabb... Dear Nina, Htoo, Chris & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) *** In Musings4 I referred to discussions on the development of calm and concentration. Many times on DSG we’ve all discussed in detail the two meanings of jhana*.I found it useful to discuss these in more detail. In particular I was interested to know whether they referred to any moments of samatha and vipassana bhavana (mental development). Jhana is derived from jhayati,(Sk dhyana). Often we read jhayati or jhayatha (below) translated as ‘meditate’, such as in the Sallekhasutta, MN8, which we discussed with Jim’s Pali expertise a long time ago. The Buddha said to Cunda: ”There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.” (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl). The two meanings of jhana refer to arammanupanijjhana, referring to moments of samatha development and lakkhanupanijjhana, referring to the development of satipatthana. K.Sujin stressed that jhana means ‘burning’ in both instances. Both kinds of jhana are included in the quote above and elsewhere(see below*) When we refer to arammanupanijjhana, the burning aspect refers to the (wholesome) concentrating on the object in the development of samatha. ‘Jhana’ here refers to the very beginning of samatha development up to appana samadhi (absorption). At such moments, the defilements are ‘burnt’ away. When we refer to lakkhanupanijjhana, there is the burning of unwholesome states at any moment of satipatthana by knowing the lakkhana (characteristic) of reality. When there is right understanding, unwholesome cittas cannot arise. It continues to ‘burn’ until all defeilements are completely burnt away. For either kind of bhavana (mental development/meditation), there is ‘burning’ from the very beginning. Without burning from the start, it’s impossible that jhanas or supramundane states can be attained. So when we are urged to 'meditate' or develop wholesome states, we are being urged to see the value and urgency of samatha and satipatthana development at this very moment with right understanding, not with any idea of a self that can bring about such development. Some may question whether ordinary moments of wholesome cittas, such as moments of metta or generosity can be referred to as jhana or ‘burning’. Without any development (i.e without wisdom of samatha or vipassana accompanying such states), we cannot really refer to them as burning, as I understand, but it was suggested that we do not need to think about this aspect. We also discussed how we all make mistakes according to our very limited knowledge and this can make us humble. (to be contd). Metta, Sarah *Some of the previous posts on the two meanings of jhana can be found under ‘Jhana -2 meanings’ and ‘Meditation in the Texts’ in Useful Posts. Here is an extract from one of Nina’s: * >We read in the ³Discourse on Expunging²(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that the Buddha said to Cunda: ³These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate, Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our instruction to you.² In Pali the word ³jhåyathå² is used, that can be translated as contemplate. The Commentary to this sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní², explains that there are two meanings of jhåna: contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna), and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhaùúpanijjhåna), beginning with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: ³It is said, develop samatha and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.² And here is the Pali about the objects of meditation: Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha(do not be neglectful).< ============================================= 44237 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections sarahprocterabb... Hi Htoo, Azita* --- htootintnaing wrote: S:> So the purpose is not to specially concentrate, but to understand any > dhammas appearing in daily life. Attachment and calm are dhammas that > need to be clearly distinguished. We also discussed the differences > between the development of concentration and calm. (to be contd). .... H:> I think there is needed to penetrate conventional things. Ultimate > things cannot voice itself. But through conventional things. > > I know 'someone is going to a forest and sit under a tree with > crossed > leg with erect body and trying to develop sati and panna'. .... S: I'm sorry but I can't understand your comments here. Pls elaborate. Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo, Slowly catching up with your many good posts in the DT series. A good summary of the series to date in #44074. (Other comments later). #43901 was also a good one you wrote for those interested in science and for those new to the Abhidhamma. I'm just reminded by a comment Htoo made about the new yahoo. *All - The search function on the list homepage works much better now, I think. If, like Azita, you have periods when you don't read mail, you can opt for the summary of posts, key in your name on return, and you may be surprised to see how often it popped up in your absence:-). I just tried it for 'Azita' and also 'spiral', Howard's favourite. Also, click on 'date' in messages if you haven't worked out that this is the way to reverse the date order. ======= 44238 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 sarahprocterabb... Hi Carl, --- Carl wrote: > > C: Yes, I agree, even when you say "(i.e just at the present moment > ever)". :-) How could it be otherwise?. Do you feel that so > called "sitting vipassana meditation, or perhaps so called "formal > vipassana meditation" is not at the present moment? .... S: The present moment is right now. So, now what is the present dhamma or reality? Can any other reality be known? Right now, we're not engaged in what you refer to as "sitting vipassana meditation, or "formal vipassana meditation", so this has no bearing right now on any awareness of present dhammas, wouldn't you agree. Let's stick to a discussion of the constituents of 'life' right now. Can we agree that these are merely passing namas and rupas? Can we agree that vipassana meditation can only refer to the direct understanding of any of these namas and rupas which are apparent now? ... > C: <...> > I see no difference in potential between the non-sitters "vipassana > practise" and that of the sitters "vipassana practise". All the > same. No need to spin words. > I wonder if you would say the word "practise" has two different > meanings here? ... S: I think that "vipassana practise" refers to the momentary development of understanding of dhammas and that it can only develop when there is a clear theoretical basic knowledge of what such dhammas are. It is immaterial whether we're sitting, standing, walking, posting or anything else. If there's any idea of any of these activities being more or less 'suitable' for "vipassana practise", it's likely to be a hindrance. Are we on the same page now? Metta, Sarah ========= 44239 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 sarahprocterabb... Hi Htoo, I had a couple more comments to add on our old thread but ran out of time before my trip. I apologise for the delay- you've probably forgotten about it by now:-/ --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo's old post:> No one will say 'that child is doing daana or siila > or bhavanaa when he is reading or learning'. > ... > S: probably not, but maybe. He may be studying to make his mother or > teacher happy. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: No. Pleasing behaviour to his teacher or his mother is initial > javana cittas just before he is sinking in reading. It will be > akusala if it is lobha loaded or dosa loaded. What I used as simile > was that he is 'purely reading or learning'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: We may just be quibbling over words her, but what I was wishing to stress was that in any activity, whether 'reading', 'learning', 'walking' or 'swimming' even, the cittas change rapidly as you know. Mostly the javanas will be akusala as we both agree now, I think, but even when intent on one's study or swimming strokes, there may be momentary wise reflections or kind thoughts for example. We can generalise, but in truth we can only learn to know our own cittas at any time. ... ***** > Sarah: > > He may be refraining from bad deeds or speech. He may be > helping his friend. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. This example shifts to others. Reading is not related with > refraining from bad deeds or speech. If you do not agree then please > consult '3 virati cetasikas' again. They are 'aniyata yogi cetasikas'. ... S: No one has suggested anything about the 3 virati arising together in this context. Even whilst reading, the vithi (processes of cittas) change rapidly. I do a lot of work with teenagers and I assure you that even whilst reading, there can be plenty of bad deeds, speech and occasionally refrainging from such activities or helping a friend:-) .... > 3 virati cetasikas are 'aniyata yogi cetasikas'. They do not co-arise > unless co-arising citta is lokuttara citta. > > So the boy will not have any of virati when he is reading or learning. .... S: There's no question about the 3 virati as you write. I can't understand how it follows that the poor boy 'will not have any of virati when he is reading or learning'. Why not? How about if he's reading out loud and tempted to harshly shout out the words in anger, but abstains and speaks quietly instead? How about if he's tempted to take his sister's computer, but abstains again? Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. ***** ... H:> > > He is not doing daana, siila, bhavana. So what will you say? > > > Again he is not killing, stealing, sexing, lying, intoxicating. > > > Does he do any akusala? What will you say? > ... > S: Akusala doesn't have to be concerned with one of the above. > .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I know. But for simplicity I wrote those things because they > are kamma patha. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Yes, but we can't say that just because it isn't akusala kamma patha, that it must be kusala:-/ I don't think this is 'simplicity :-). .... ***** <...> > Htoo: I know. There are 9 causes of dosa. But even in the absence of > cause dosa can arise. Actually I was talking on 'the boy's reading or > learning'. His reading is not dosa. And not lobha if it is a simple > wish to learn. ... S: Most likely it is lobha:-). ... Htoo:> When there is no lobha, no dosa and there is no vicikiccha then the > only akusala citta will be uddhacca. When he is concentrating on > reading or learning there is no uddhacca. ... S: Again, I disagree. Uddhacca (restlessness) arises with every akusala citta as you know and it can be very subtle. When there is the slightest excitement in what we are reading or when we feel enthusiastic about the subject, usually it's attachment with uddhacca, though this is usually considered a 'positive' characteristic. As I wrote in one of the Musings, usually any strong concentration is akusala. It's not calm at such moments. Metta, Sarah ======== 44240 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:23am Subject: Awareness of What? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Awareness of What?: The Four Frame of Reference: Understand and be continuously quite aware of exactly that: Any Body is just a frame of changing forms on loan, whether internal or external, past, present or future, fine or foul.. Comprehend and be firmly mindful and quite aware of that: Any Feeling is merely a momentary affective response, whether own or other, past, present or future, pleasant or painful.. Realize and be continually attentive and quite aware of that: Any Mentality of Mind is only a cacophony of passing moods, whether glad or sad, past, present or future, subtle or gross.. Know & be constantly remembering and quite aware of that: Any Phenomena are simply constructed & transient mental states, whether internal or external, past, present or future, fine or foul.. Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka 44241 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evan christine_forsy... Hello Evan, I can see that there will have to be some serious tutoring supplied from the Queensland Mob. :-) Queenslanders are Banana Benders - and some tasteless persons also call them Cane Toads; Victorians are Gum Suckers; and those from New South Wales are called Cockroaches (and worse, depending on who is winning the Rugby League State of Origin matches). Actually anyone south of Queensland may, on occasion, be called a Mexican. A person living in South Australia is called a Crow Eater - (even one of our moderators is a C-E); someone living in Western Australia is called a Sand Groper, those living in the Northern Territory are Top-enders; and someone from Tasmania is called a Taswegian or an Apple-eater. Note for Mods .... required Dhamma content ..... :-) For all Banana Benders, Cockroaches, Cane Toads, Gum Suckers, Mexicans, Crow-eaters, Sand Gropers, Top-enders, Taswegians and Apple-eaters: "Think: Happy, at rest, may all beings be happy at heart. Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart." Sutta Nipata I.8 metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > > Hello Evan, > > How can this be? An australian who doesn't know the terms for those > living in other states? Whatever it is that's happening in Victoria > is more serious than we thought ... :-) must be too much aerial > ping-pong .. but I'm afraid to go on in case I get another please > explain. :-) A thought ... have you lived in Australia all your > life? > > metta, > Chris from Queensland > > Chris, > > Yes, I have lived in Australia all my life but haven't heard those terms > before. I have only recently heard some terms like "Flat out like a > lizard drinking water" which I use all the time now. So I assume that > banana benders are from Qld but the other term must refer to Vics? > > Kind Regards, > > Evan > 44242 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: Musings5 - Burning christine_forsy... Hello Sarah, and all, "But, after all, brains are not the best things in the world." "Have you any?" inquired the Scarecrow. "No, my head is quite empty," answered the Woodman. "But once I had brains, and a heart also; so, having tried them both, I should much rather have a heart." Sometimes I feel like the the Tin Woodman in the Wizard of Oz - I think I will remember things but they vanish out of my head the minute my mind wanders off. Out of the discussions in Bangkok a week or two back, the one thing I remember about "There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you." is that terms such as Develop! and Go! were said by the Buddha, and heard by the recipient, as meaning "Whatever you are doing now .... develop ... go..." That is, the context of the teaching in any sutta is all important. metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Nina, Htoo, Chris & All, > > (This series of `Musings' are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with > A.Sujin) > *** > In Musings4 I referred to discussions on the development of calm and > concentration. Many times on DSG we've all discussed in detail the two > meanings of jhana*.I found it useful to discuss these in more detail. In > particular I was interested to know whether they referred to any moments > of samatha and vipassana bhavana (mental development). > > Jhana is derived from jhayati,(Sk dhyana). Often we read jhayati or > jhayatha (below) translated as `meditate', such as in the Sallekhasutta, > MN8, which we discussed with Jim's Pali expertise a long time ago. The > Buddha said to Cunda: > > "There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not > delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you." > (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl). > > The two meanings of jhana refer to arammanupanijjhana, referring to > moments of samatha development and lakkhanupanijjhana, referring to the > development of satipatthana. K.Sujin stressed that jhana means `burning' > in both instances. > > Both kinds of jhana are included in the quote above and elsewhere (see > below*) > > When we refer to arammanupanijjhana, the burning aspect refers to the > (wholesome) concentrating on the object in the development of samatha. > `Jhana' here refers to the very beginning of samatha development up to > appana samadhi (absorption). At such moments, the defilements are `burnt' > away. > > When we refer to lakkhanupanijjhana, there is the burning of unwholesome > states at any moment of satipatthana by knowing the lakkhana > (characteristic) of reality. When there is right understanding, > unwholesome cittas cannot arise. It continues to `burn' until all > defeilements are completely burnt away. > > For either kind of bhavana (mental development/meditation), there is > `burning' from the very beginning. Without burning from the start, it's > impossible that jhanas or supramundane states can be attained. So when we > are urged to 'meditate' or develop wholesome states, we are being urged to > see the value and urgency of samatha and satipatthana development at this > very moment with right understanding, not with any idea of a self that can > bring about such development. > > Some may question whether ordinary moments of wholesome cittas, such as > moments of metta or generosity can be referred to as jhana or `burning'. > Without any development (i.e without wisdom of samatha or vipassana > accompanying such states), we cannot really refer to them as burning, as I > understand, but it was suggested that we do not need to think about this > aspect. We also discussed how we all make mistakes according to our very > limited knowledge and this can make us humble. (to be contd). > > Metta, > > Sarah > > *Some of the previous posts on the two meanings of jhana can be found > under `Jhana -2 meanings' and `Meditation in the Texts' in Useful Posts. > Here is an extract from one of Nina's: > > * >We read in the ³Discourse on Expunging²(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that > the Buddha said to Cunda: > > ³These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate, > Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our > instruction to you.² > > In Pali the word ³jhåyathå² is used, that can be translated as > contemplate. The Commentary to this sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní², explains > that there are two meanings of jhåna: > contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna), > and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhaùúpanijjhåna), beginning > with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields > (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: ³It is said, develop samatha > and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.² > > And here is the Pali about the objects of meditation: > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi > (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito > (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n > ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati > maapamajjittha(do not be neglectful).< > ============================================= 44243 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: Musings5 - Burning htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Nina, Htoo, Chris & All, (This series of `Musings' are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) *** In Musings4 I referred to discussions on the development of calm and > concentration. Many times on DSG we've all discussed in detail the two meanings of jhana*.I found it useful to discuss these ..snip.. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your message. Here is a part of your post quoted. ''"There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you." (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl).'' I was looking for this 'paragraph'. Is it 'Cunda'? Once I saw someone quoted as 'Ananda'. Are there any other sources that say the same paragraph with the name 'Ananda'? I means 'Are there any words which say--> Meditate Ananda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.' One question for you and all other DSG member here. Does this paragraph suggest to do formally? :-)) With much respect, Htoo Naing 44244 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:49am Subject: Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 Hello Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear RobertK and Azita - > > Rob said it so neatly : "This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and > so we need to strive to find the right way, if we make efforts in the wrong > path it will only prolong samsara and lead to more wrong effort in future > lives". To me making efforts in the wrong path(s) has not been a > problem. The difficulty is with consistently making right effort in the right > path: it is not easy because there are other Path factors that we have > to condition at the same time, such that the five indriyas are in good > balance. > > Azita, did you immediately start to pack and fly back home, after > receiving the "timely reminder" from Rob? Regards, Tep Azita: No, I did not and I'm very curious to know why you think I would. Please let me know, Tep. May we all be well and happy, Azita. 44245 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 htootintnaing Sara wrote: Hi Htoo, I had a couple more comments to add on our old thread but ran out of time before my trip. I apologise for the delay- you've probably forgotten about it by now:-/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine. I do not forget it. All your messages in the reply post is clear. So I will not reply mostly because I agree. That is reading of a boy and its implications. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: We may just be quibbling over words her, but what I was wishing to stress was that in any activity, whether 'reading', 'learning', 'walking' or 'swimming' even, the cittas change rapidly as you know. Mostly the javanas will be akusala as we both agree now, I think, but even when intent on one's study or swimming strokes, there may be momentary wise reflections or kind thoughts for example. We can generalise, but in truth we can only learn to know our own cittas at any time. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. Most of the time, yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** ... S: No one has suggested anything about the 3 virati arising together in this context. Even whilst reading, the vithi (processes of cittas) change rapidly. I do a lot of work with teenagers and I assure you that even whilst reading, there can be plenty of bad deeds, speech and occasionally refrainging from such activities or helping a friend:-) .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 3 virati cetasikas arise in single out of 3. If 'kaaya-ducarita virati' arises, vaci-ducarita virati and macchaajiva virati do not arise. When vaci-ducarita virati arises, kaaya-ducarita virati and macchaajiiva virati do not arise. When macchaajiiva virati arises, kaaya-ducarita virati and vaci-ducarita virati doe not arise. They are mutually exclusive in 8 mahakusala cittas. Let us go back to the boy. He is purely reading. Just go for a single profile of one moment of javana citta in the middle of reading. He reads and apperceives that 'a' means 'one and unspecified representative of the whole group of something'. Here javana is 'understanding' of the concept 'a' and its meaning. The object is no more vision of the word on the page of the book but the object is pannatti, which bears ''the meaning of the word'a' in its full essence.'' When javana cittas are taking that object of panatti 'a' and its full meaning, that javana cittas have to be kamavacara cittas. Because there are 55 javana cittas. 26 ( 8 lokuttara cittas + 5 rupakusala jhanas + 5 rupakiriya jhanas + 4 arupakusala jhana + 4 arupakiriya jhana _ for other readers) are appana javana cittas and the boy is not developing appanaa javana. There are 29 javana cittas left for the boy. Again 8 mahakiriya cittas arise only in arahats. There left 21 javana cittas. Hasituppada citta or smiling-consciousness of arahats cannot arise in the boy in question. So there are 20 javana cittas. Among these 20 javana cittas, 12 cittas are akusala cittas and 8 cittas are mahakusala cittas. He is reading. One of javana cittas while he is reading has to be one of these 20 cittas. When he is reading, he is not directed to kaaya-ducarita or kaayasucarita, vaci-ducarita or vaci-sucarita. He is not linked with livelihood when reading. I do not believe he will be in the middle of javana cittas with any of 3 virati cetasikas while reading. I know your examples. If he is taking his sister's computer and the mind is not at reading of words on the screen but on the position of computer then it may well be kaaya-ducarita. But I already said 'purely reading'. He is absorbed in reading and unperturbable at that moment. Purely reading. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: There's no question about the 3 virati as you write. I can't understand how it follows that the poor boy 'will not have any of virati when he is reading or learning'. Why not? How about if he's reading out loud and tempted to harshly shout out the words in anger, but abstains and speaks quietly instead? How about if he's tempted to take his sister's computer, but abstains again? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have argued on these above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. ***** ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) I have been contemplating. I already said that it is written in a book written in Myanmar. I already told you the author. I did not say I accept or do not accept. But generally I agree that when a boy is reading his school lessons, most of his javana cittas will be akusala cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Akusala doesn't have to be concerned with one of the above. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I understand is that you are talking 'cittuppaada'. If it is true, yes you are right. That is akusala doesn't have to be concerned with one of 'killing-stealing-sexing-lying-intoxicating'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S:Yes, but we can't say that just because it isn't akusala kamma patha, that it must be kusala:-/I don't think this is 'simplicity :-). .... ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Generally yes. We cannot overgeneralize. But there are 2 alternative that is 8 mahakusala cittas and 12 akusala cittas while the boy is 'PURELY READING AND UNDERSTANDING'. Here I add, UNDERSTANDING. If understanding involve, how will you say? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Most likely it is lobha:-). ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. (I snipped as we both know the snipped part.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Again, I disagree. Uddhacca (restlessness) arises with every akusala citta as you know and it can be very subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You missed the point. I was not talking on uddhacca-cetasika. I was talking on uddhacca-citta. Please re-read my earlier reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: When there is the slightest excitement in what we are reading or when we feel enthusiastic about the subject, usually it's attachment with uddhacca, though this is usually considered a 'positive' characteristic. As I wrote in one of the Musings,usually any strong concentration is akusala. It's not calm at such moments. Metta, Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Again, I was talking on uddhacca-citta and not on uddhacca cetasika. The boy is reading. And at a point where we cut as a profile through his javana cittas, one of these reading javana cittas will be a) one of 8 mahakusala cittas b) one of 12 akusala cittas When he is reading, there is no reason to arise vicikiccha cittas, if his reading material is his school lessons and not Dhamma lessons. When he is absorbed in reading and understanding, he is not wandering astray but concentrates on 'the concept that bears the meaning of words on the paper of his school lesson book. So no vicikiccha and uddhacca cittas. I am not talking on cetasikas. There left 10 akusala cittas and 8 mahakusala cittas. If he is not in the state of happiness and just indifferent then there will be 4 lobha cittas and 4 mahakusala cittas left. If he is not disturbed by reading and by understanding of his lessons, there is no reason to arise dosa, while he is PURELY READING AND UNDERSTANDING. So there left 2 alternatives a) 4 lobha mula cittas b) 4 mahakusala cittas If he is alert and no need to be self-stimulated or self-prompted there will be 2 alternatives. a) 2 lobha cittas b) 2 mahakusala cittas These cittas are difficult to be differentiated. a) Moha, uddhacca, ahirika, anottappa b) Saddha, sati, hiri, ottappa But how does he understand his school lesson with 2 lobha cittas? There is no panna in 2 lobha cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44246 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 htootintnaing Jon wrote: Hi Htoo > htootintnaing wrote: > >Dear Jon, > >Thanks for your reply. If in walking, these movements of walking are all cittaja ruupa and they have to be so. If the cittas are all jhanas, then these walking movements have to be abhinna's output. Otherwise walking cannot be done by jhanas. Because the object of jhana is separate and not the movement and intention to move. > >As there are infinite moments, jhana cittas may arise in between. So > >these jhanas are not in the form of jhana-samapatti or jhana- > >attainment. My understanding is that moments of samatha bhavana (e.g., metta, karuna) can occur at any time, regardless of the present activity. When it comes to jhana, the same may apply if the jhana is of sufficiently developed strength (e.g., there is mastery). Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree, Jon. Thanks for your information. But may I ask a question. 'Are we become a machine running automatically when we are thinking on different things while the body is in some activities like walking fast and thinking what to do when we arrive the office?' What I believe is that the body is moving and this is cittaja rupa and without cittas these movements never arise. So among billions of cittas in distraction (from walking fast) some cittas direct to fast walking. The novice cannot think or direct to his walking if he is in absorptive jhana cittas. Then those rupas of walking will be cittaja rupas of abhinna. Otherwise, he will have to do entering-coming-out of jhana in a quick and successive manner. Jhana cittas in 1st jhana cannot walk, and 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana cannot walk. Only abhinna will be able to walk. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >In Myanmar, once there was a novice. He went alm round to 3 >differtent villages. This happened for a long time. Only when 3 >villagers of 3 different villages met, they talked about the4 novice >and came to know that the novice was going alm round at the same time. >With Metta, >Htoo Naing 44247 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, You wrote: ------------------------- > Ken, I agree that the jhanas alone are not going to lead to liberation, however, a mind that can attain the jhanas (esp up to 4th jhana) is sharp enough to start to notice and pick apart the veil of delusion. ------------------------- A jhana meditator has accumulated tendencies for kusala consciousness, and that will make vipassana easier. However, he can also have accumulations for very akusala consciousness. If he has very strong wrong-views (however suppressed), then he might not be able to practice vipassana at any level. I think there are examples of such people in the Tipitaka. ------------------- E: > Without a mind of that power, delusion cannot be dispelled. ------------------- Remembering that dhana, sila and bhavana are free of moha, we can say that we are all capable of dispelling delusion. But perhaps that is not what you meant by 'dispelled.' In a moment of Path-consciousness, some delusions are permanently dispelled. And I agree; at those moments the mind is concentrated with great power. That power is developed by countless moments of satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------- E: > Before you say that one can attain liberation with insight alone, I will also agree with you before you get the chance to say it. However, on the path to increasing one's insight ability, the mind's power/ability/flexibility increases to that equivalent to jhana. So it's a similar sort of process with a different emphasis. ----------------------------------------------------------- I agree. Jhana is developed after devoting many lifetimes to samatha. It requires understanding the difference between kusala and akusala. So there are similarities with vipassana, which is also developed over many lifetimes. However it requires understanding the characteristics of nama and rupa. ------------------------------------------ KH: > > Don't forget the story of 'the man, the boy and the donkey.' That ended in tragedy. :-) > Evan: Well, a Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni who can attain at will the 4 lower jhanas would have so much more insight and "mind capability" that there is no way I could see myself making a comment that his/her understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. ------------------------------------------- (I realise you meant to type ' *not* necessarily progressed further than our own.') Sure, a bhikkhu with any of the attainments has progressed further than we have, but you seem to be presuming B. Brahmavamso has done that. Has he said so? In message 44073, Sarah has quoted texts explaining that it takes a wise person to know the attainments of others, and even then, only after a long, close association. I think a bhikkhu who announces attainment puts us all in an invidious position. We don't want to gainsay a bhikkhu, but until we can prove it for ourselves, how can we know whether to believe him or not? Ken H 44248 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread (317) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Marana-asanna javana cittas are 'the final series of thought moments' in a life and at the end of that series there usually follows cuti citta or dying consciousness or life-ending consciousness or life- ceasing consciousness. Sometimes just before cuti citta and just after the last (5th) marana- asanna javana citta, there is a bhavanga citta. These cittuppaada will depend on rupas of both arammana/object and hadaya/heart or seat of mind. There are 19 patisandhi cittas and there are 20 patisandhi or 20 rebirth. One extra patisandhi is rupa-patisandhi of asannisatta brahmaas. There is no interval between the cuti citta of immediate previous life and patisandhi citta of the current life or between the cuti citta of this current life and patisandhi citta of next life. There is no interval at all. Quite swift. So fast. Too rapid. Dreadfully quick. No one can stop this. Even The Buddha, The Exalted One, The Supreme One, The Well Gone One, Bhagava, The Teacher cannot stop or cut up this point. Only arahatta phala nana will stop this bridge of 'no interval' which connect cuti citta and next life patisandhi citta. Because arahatta phala cittas, who act as marana-asanna javana cittas are so pure, so clean, free of defilement, free of kamma and as there is no more sankhara or new kamma the bridge is broken and when the last javana citta of arahattas' marana-asanna javana citta passes away, arahatta cuti citta arises. As soon as that cuti citta passes away, the whole circle of birth- rebirth is completely destroyed and asankhata dhaatu behaves itself as uncomparable bliss and that asankhata dhaatu is nibbana dhaatu. This dhaatu is just a name as compared to sankhata dhaatu. In actaul sense, nibbana is not dhaatu of any of 18 dhaatu. So nibbana may be called as 'adhaatu' (my opinion, my word). Attano sabhaavam dhaaretiiti dhaatu. Atta means 'self'. This is grammatical word and not of atta-anatta matter. Sabhaava means 'with bhaava' or 'with nature'. Bhava means 'nature' 'existence' 'natural existence'. Sabhaava means 'natural characterisitcs' or 'intrinsic nature'. Dhaareti means 'bear' 'bring' 'carry' 'hold'. Iti means 'such'. Dhaaretiiti means 'as bearing' 'as it bears' 'as it brings' 'as it carries'. Dhaatu means 'element'. There are 18 elements or 18 dhaatus and they all bear their own 'intrinsic characteristics'. Among these 18 dhaatus, nibbana is not one of these 18 dhaatu. But nibbana is used to called 'asankhata dhaatu'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44249 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread (318) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha saw all the changings of life from one to another when He attained dibbacakkha nana. This nana is the 2nd power that He attained just before He became a Buddha. The 1st power is pubbenivaasa nana and it is recollection of all past lives without any obstruction. This means that The Buddha can know all His past lives. Even paccekabuddhas cannot know all their past lives without obstruction let alone Moggallana Thera. After the 1st power was attained, Buddha-to-be continued His effort and He attained the 2nd nana called dibbacakkhu or divine eyes. This nana sees all the changings of life. One life ends with cuti citta and without any interval there arise patisandhi citta. This is temporal linkage and this patisandhi citta may home on anywhere and not confined to the area where the dead being lived. Even though there is a constant changing of lives through out 31 bhumis or 31 realms, this changing is not at random. This means that there is a unique system of how beings change from one life to another. Examples; Hell beings when dies can never be reborn in rupa brahma bhumis or arupa brahma bhumi. Rupa brahmas when die can never be reborn in hell realm directly. I just remember a story of a pig. (Christine may remember this). In Myanmar, there is a saying. 'Byan mart pyii hmaa ta win win, wet sa gyin hmaa ta myunt myunt'. Byan mar = brahma pyi = bhumi (country) hmaa = at, in ta win win = brightening, shining wet = pig sa gyin = eating vessel for animals like cows, pigs ta myunt myunt = ruminously chewing First in the brahma bhumi, then in the animal realm as a pig. This is just to show how dreadful life is. In actual, brahma cannot be reborn directly in the hell or animal or other woeful realms. Abhidhammatthasangaha: vithimuttasangaha; 98. 'aaruppa cutiyaa honti, hetthimaaruppa vajjitaa. Paramaaruppasandhi ca, tathaa kaama tihetkaa.' 'ruupaavacara cutiyaa, ahetu rahitaa siyyum. Sabbaa kaama tihetuhmaa, kaamesveva panetaraa. Ayamettha cutipatisandhikkamo.' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44250 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread (319) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The aim of writing Dhamma Thread posts is to go through necessary Dhamma for understanding and then to move on to merging with daily activities. For those who cannot accept abhidhamma and who do not believe 'a rupa has a lifespan of 17 cittas' and who even said that 'The Buddha cannot see these cittas' and who says 'rupas are so fast that mind cannot follow rupas' can leave all these posts on Dhamma Thread. What I dare say is that all Dhamma Thread posts will be in line with Tipitaka and the facts can be checked against the Teachings. That is the whole treachings of The Buddha and not just a word or a single stanza of teachings. The Buddha saw all beings at their cuti, at their patisandhi when dibbacakkhu nana arose in the middle watch of His 35th birthday, on which He became a Sammasambuddha. There is a unique system which life should be followed after which life. Abhidhammatthasangaha: vithimuttasangaha; 98. 'aaruppa cutiyaa honti, hetthimaaruppa vajjitaa. Paramaaruppasandhi ca, tathaa kaama tihetkaa.' 'ruupaavacara cutiyaa, ahetu rahitaa siyyum. Sabbaa kaama tihetuhmaa, kaamesveva panetaraa. Ayamettha cutipatisandhikkamo.' Aaruppa = arupa brahma, cutiyaa = when dies, aaruppa cutiyaa = when arupa brahma die. Hetthima = lower, hetthimaaruppa = lower arupa brahma Vajjitaa = excepting Paramaa = higher, paramaaruppa sandhi = higher arupa rebirth. So when arupa brahma dies, they are reborn in higher arupa brahma bhumis. Ca = or Tathaa = in the same way Kaama tihetukaa = tihetuka kaama rebirth or higher sensuous rebirth. So arupa brahmas can never be reborn in 4 woeful planes and they cannot be reborn with dvihetuka patisandhi or ahetuka patisandhi like deaf-and-damb. Ruupavacara cutiyaa = when rupa brahmas die, Ahetu rahitaa siyyum = excepting ahetuka patisandhi Sabba kaama tihetuhmaa = all of tihetuka kaama patisandhi So when rupa brahmas die, they may be reborn in kaama bhumis with tihetuka patisandhi and they will not be reborn in ahetuka patisandhi like 4 woeful planes. They may be reborn in arupa brahma bhumis if they practise arupa jhanas. After death of rupa brahmas, 18 patisandhis can arise after exclusion of 2 ahetuka patisandhis from 20 patisandhis. After death of tihetuka kaama beings, all 20 patisandhis can arise. That is why 'manussa bhumi' or 'human realm' is said to be in the junction of all 31 bhumis or 31 realms. They can go anywhere directly if there are conditions. After death of dvihetuka and ahetuka beings, they can only reborn with 10 kaama patisandhis. That is 2 ahetuka patisandhis and 8 mahakusalavipaka kama sugati patisandhi. Ayamettha cuti patisandhikkamo. Such are 'the serialness of cuti followed by patisandhi'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1)Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 2) Apology for many Pali words. They have to be used to avoid delay. If there is any unclearity, please just reply. 44251 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Larry Larry wrote: >Hi all, > >I'm wondering why tranquility isn't the object of jhana. It seems to be >the goal of jhana. Jhana factors are dropped in order to experience >greater tranquility. If vitakka and vicara is the projection of a >concept, how is the nimitta sustained when vitakka and vicara cease? > > Tranquillity (a kusala mental factor) is indeed what characterises moments of samatha consciiousness (and also jhana consciousness, although as jhana is approached the factor of concentration becomes more prominent). I would see the goal of jhana as being (temporary) freedom from the arising of akusala. Vitakka and vicara are, like tranquillity, mental factors that arise with a moment of consciousness. They are not the projection of a concept. They perform a function that apparently can be dispensed with as higher stages of jhana are attained. Jon 44252 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings5 - Burning sarahprocterabb... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > ''"There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, > Cunda, > do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our > instruction > to you." (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl).'' > > I was looking for this 'paragraph'. Is it 'Cunda'? ... S: In the sutta mentioned, yes. ... > > Once I saw someone quoted as 'Ananda'. Are there any other sources > that > say the same paragraph with the name 'Ananda'? > > I means 'Are there any words which say--> Meditate Ananda, do not > delay > or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.' ... S: Yes. MN152 Indriyabhavana Sutta. Exactly the same words to Ananda as you say. .... > > One question for you and all other DSG member here. > > Does this paragraph suggest to do formally? :-)) .... S: Is there any 'formally' in the Pali? :-)) Metta, Sarah ======== 44253 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 10-04-2005 17:21 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > And so my question still is: What's the canonical Tipitaka statement > that explicitly validates and confirms that the object of jhanacitta > is a counterpart sign (or whatever the commentators say it is), and > not simply the visible form or tactile form. Also, what statement > explicitly confirms that jhana is a state of 'fixed samadhi'? > N: Book of Analysis (Vibhanga), the second Book of the Abhidhamma: Ch 12, Analysis of Jhana. §538: Abandoning covetousness in the world means: ...Therein what is the world? The five aggregates (as objects of) the attachments are the world...> § 564: §602; § 603: § 625: In this chapter the jhana-facors are dealt with and the stages of rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana. **** As to counterpart sign etc: these are not expressively mentioned. The yogavacara cannot immediately dwell in jhana. Jhana is a development. The names of parikamma nimitta etc. merely denote that there is development. He has to persevere with patience and look again and again at the kasina. BTW, the Path of Discrimination deals with insight, the whole work deals with the development of insight, also when jhana is included. Nina. 44254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Larry, op 10-04-2005 19:35 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > I'm wondering why tranquility isn't the object of jhana. It seems to be > the goal of jhana. Jhana factors are dropped in order to experience > greater tranquility. N: Let's talk first about what tranquillity is. It is being removed from attachment to sense objects. It is this kind of tranquillity that is the goal of jhana, not a kind of feeling, feeling tranquil. Jhana itself is this kind of tranquillity. But there is also an object that is tranquillity: recollection of peace or nibbana. Only ariyans are successful and only access can be attained with this subject. L:If vitakka and vicara is the projection of a concept, how is the nimitta sustained when vitakka and vicara cease? N: Because more progress has been made. The nimitta in jhana is not the same as a concept that is the object of thinking for example right now, while we discuss. It is not necessary to think in order to experience the nimitta. Besides, vitakka and vicara are not the same as what we mean by thinking in conventional language. They arise also in sense-door processes. Nina. 44255 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:12am Subject: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn Dear Jon, Sarah, and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > If you're saying you've found a new means to the same end that the > Buddha spoke about, then I'd have to say I'm sceptical ;-)) > ...................... My first success with a Theravadin skilful means: Jon getting sceptical But it's not enough. I leave DSG, because my annoyance about the dominant orthodoxy makes me making more and more provocative messages. And that's not good for anybody. I learned a lot, from other messages, from discussions and from making - as clear as possible - my messages. My Global Buddhistic path will continue: with much Theravada input, and some Mahayana, and without ideas that are for me not the core of buddhism but old Indian culture. Thanks and metta Joop 44256 From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > I haven't read this book by Susan Blackmore but I did some Internet > research on her background. After having an out-of-body experience > she began a thirty year career as a parapsychologist, studying > everything strange and bizarre... > In other words, I do not believe that she is a credible, scientific > source for your contentions. Her viewpoint is biased by personal > frustrations and disappointments James, I do wish that you would actually read Blackmore's book rather than resorting outright to ad hominen arguments. The fact that Blackmore spent 30 years studying parapsychology (which includes near-death experiences as one of its "strange and bizarre" subjects) and that she herself had an out-of-body experience, would arguably make her uniquely qualified to write a book on this subject. In any case, the book is quite well-researched and well-documented. Check it out. > Do you happen to have > any other sources for your contention? Another good book is "Reincarnation: A Critical Examination" by Paul Edwards. Of course, I would argue that the burden of proof is really on those who claim (without any supporting evidence) that the mind can continue without the brain. What sources do you have for your "contention"? (Sorry, but "The Buddha says so" doesn't count :-) Matthew 44257 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma abhidhammika Dear Evan, Christine, Nina, Matt, Mike, Robert K and all How are you? Happiness (sukha) is a type of feeling (vedanaa). There are four Ruupa Jhaanas and Four Aruupa Jhaanas. While in the second Ruupa Jhaana, the pratitioner who attains it can drop (i.e remove) thinking (vitakko) and rethinking (vicaaro). When the pratitioner reaches the level of the Fourth Ruupa Jhaana, he or she drops happiness (sukha) whenever they enter this Jhaana. As the Fourth Ruupa Jhaana becomes more refine than the preceding Jhaanas, the pratitioner comes to find happiness to be gross, and so always transcends the latter and is content with neutral feeling. Liberation (mokkha, vimutti) is not a type of feeling. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: Evan: > Buddhism is NOT a technique for finding happiness. > Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. > Happiness is NOT the stated objective > of Buddhism. Comtemplation is NOT Dhamma > practice. Contemplation alone > will NOT lead one to "see things as they really are". Am I going to > quote dhamma to support my statements? No. I don't have the time. Matthew: Didn't the Buddha say that, just as the sea has but one flavor which is salty, so too his Dhamma has only one flavor -- liberation from suffering? Isn't the whole point of Buddhism the liberation from suffering? Matthew --Evan Matthew, Yes that is true, but happiness is not liberation. All I was saying is that the Buddha taught the path to liberation from suffering, not the path to happiness although happiness comes with liberation. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I don't think that happiness and liberation are the same thing - they are related in that happiness is required for liberation. Kind Regards, Evan Replies Author Date 44228 Re: The Brain on Dhamma ... Yes, I think that this is just fussing over semantics. It was the Dalai La... Matthew Miller bupleurum 1:09 pm 44258 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, Thanks for the Pitaka references, they are very helpful. But could you please give me the specific context of these two statements: > §602; > § 603: (object) operception, audible (object) perception...> Are these two statements specifically referring to the first form jhana? If so, how is that stated prior to these two verses? Geoff 44259 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Cosmique: > To me Buddha is more of a psychiatrist... > When Buddhism tries to explain what is beyond its original purpose > it takes risk to become a religious system like > Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc. whose doctrines are > not always in harmony with the science. > Every new scientific discovery in the future might wipe away > a metaphysical or religious view widely accepted today. > It does not threaten Buddhism at all, if it > clings to its original task set forth by Gotama, that is, > teaching suffering and cessation of suffering > without metaphysics. Cosmique, you and I are pretty much in complete agreement here. However, there are many who still cling to Buddhist metaphysics. For example, in another post in this thread, James gave a link to a document on the "31 planes of existence" which is about as metaphysical as you can get: James: > Perhaps you might like to > read this article about the 31 Planes of Existence: > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf In that document, under Tiracchaana Yoni (the animal realm, p.31) the author writes: "behaving like an animal will get one to this plane." That strikes me as odd, since we *are* animals. Matthew 44260 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, Matthew: James, I do wish that you would actually read Blackmore's book rather than resorting outright to ad hominen arguments. James: I would read her book, or at least parts of it, if I could get access to it. Unfortunately, I live in Cairo, Egypt and there isn't a lot of access to English books. You haven't quoted anything from the book as support, just the title, so that is all I have to go on. Maybe you could quote something from the book? Also, I don't believe that I resorted to ad hominen arguments because I pointed out those aspects of the author which relate directly to the subject matter; it's not like I said, "Oh, did you see that freaky haircut she has with five different colors? She can't be trusted!" ;-)) Matthew: In any case, the book is quite well-researched and well- documented. James: So you say; but I know that if it contradicts the teachings of Buddhism then it isn't well-researched or documented enough. Therefore, I am already doubtful. You would have to prove it to me. Matthew: Another good book is "Reincarnation: A Critical Examination" by Paul Edwards. James: Thanks, but Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation either, they believe in rebirth. Also, I don't have access to English books. Do you have any Internet sources? Matthew: Of course, I would argue that the burden of proof is really on those who claim (without any supporting evidence) that the mind can continue without the brain. What sources do you have for your "contention"? (Sorry, but "The Buddha says so" doesn't count :-) James: Why not? This is a Buddhist group and I use the words of Lord Buddha to prove whatever is pertinent; he was the supreme authority. If you don't have the wisdom to accept the teaching of Lord Buddha, that is your problem. In my opinion, scientific skeptics suffer from a constipation of the heart. Metta, James 44261 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > Cosmique, you and I are pretty much in complete agreement here. > > However, there are many who still cling to Buddhist metaphysics. For > example, in another post in this thread, James gave a link to a > document on the "31 planes of existence" which is about as > metaphysical as you can get: > > James: > > Perhaps you might like to > > read this article about the 31 Planes of Existence: > > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf > > In that document, under Tiracchaana Yoni (the animal realm, p.31) the > author writes: "behaving like an animal will get one to this plane." > That strikes me as odd, since we *are* animals. I see that you're talking about me to other people. ;-)) You are correct, however, I do firmly believe in Buddhist metaphysics. I even believe in the Buddha's teachings of supernormal powers, which many in the `core' of this group don't. However, your argument here is faulty. First, humans are animals in form only, but not in mind. Secondly, the category of `animals' according to Buddhist cosmology includes insects, and I don't think you would argue that humans are insects also, would you? Metta, James > Matthew 44262 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:41am Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear Azita - Because RobK advised as follows: -- This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive to find the right way. And because you admitted that you were then "too busy doing nothing". Furthermore, according to Theragatha VI.13 : "Make the day not-in-vain, a little or a lot. However much the day passes, that's how much less is life. Your last day approaches. This isn't your time to be heedless". Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello Tep, > > > Azita: No, I did not and I'm very curious to know why you think I > would. Please let me know, Tep. > > May we all be well and happy, > Azita. 44263 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:01am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Jon and Larry, Jon says: > However, there is usually a > reference, such as the one given by Nina, on which the commentarial > reference hangs its hat. Sorry for my denseness, but what reference given by Nina is the one on which commentarial interpretation hangs its hat? > I'd be interested to know the basis for the idea that the object of > jhana citta is the actual visible object rather than an image of it > (if that's what you're suggesting). At this point I'm just inquiring, and so am not asserting anything specifically, but the two suttas that you bring up Larry, MN 77 & MN 121 could possibly be interpreted as stating that the bare perception of visible form is the object of 'perception of earth' in MN 121, and the first two of the eight releases/liberations (vimokkha is it??) and the first two of the eight ?masteries? (I don't know the pali term, and am using Sister Upalavanna's translation) stated in MN 77 could be referring to form jhana, again with visible form as object. Also, the way jhana is described in MN 77 and AN V.28 could be interpreted as meaning the piti and sukha that is being experienced in form jhana is a result of phassa between tactile sensation, the body, and tactile consciousness. In the statement that the meditator 'permeate' and 'pervade' the entire body with piti and sukha, it seems explicit that the meditator is fully aware of the body (i.e. tactile form). See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-028.html Metta, Geoff 44264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings5 - Burning nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you very much. It is most important not to forget the two meanings of jhana: referring to arammanupanijjhana (objects of samatha), and referring to lakkhanupanijjhana, the development of satipatthana. The Buddha did not teach jhaana for its own sake and those who developed arammanupanijjhana had, in the end, also to develop lakkhanupanijjhana, understanding of all characterstics that appeared, including jhanacitta. Otherwise one would take it for self. I looked up in PED jhaayati and found two meanings: burning and thinking closely of an object. There are two different stems. Thinking closely of an object jhaayati, sk. dhyaayati, and burning, of another stem (sk. ksaayati). Also text references are given but that is quite a study. Nina. op 11-04-2005 10:34 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@... > Jhana is derived from jhayati,(Sk dhyana). Often we read jhayati or > jhayatha (below) translated as ‘meditate’, such as in the Sallekhasutta, > MN8, which we discussed with Jim’s Pali expertise a long time ago. 44265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. nilovg Dear Htoo and Jon, I remember discussing with A. Sujin about Sariputta who attained jhana and was also fanning the Buddha. Dighanakasutta. As I understood, he could enter and emerge from jhana very quickly and do the fanning movement with kaamavacara cittas in between. Nina. op 11-04-2005 13:53 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > What I believe is that the body is moving and this is cittaja rupa > and without cittas these movements never arise. So among billions of > cittas in distraction (from walking fast) some cittas direct to fast > walking. > > The novice cannot think or direct to his walking if he is in > absorptive jhana cittas. Then those rupas of walking will be cittaja > rupas of abhinna. > > Otherwise, he will have to do entering-coming-out of jhana in a quick > and successive manner. 44266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 11-04-2005 17:26 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: ... But could > you please give me the specific context of these two statements: > >> §602; N: This is after the fourth stage of rupajhana, and now he will enter the first stage of arupa jhana. >> § 603: means: ...Visible >> (object) perception, audible (object) perception...> N: the same. §604: These arise in a sens-door process, having sense objects. This in contrast to jhana subjects of meditation. G: Are these two statements specifically referring to the first form > jhana? If so, how is that stated prior to these two verses? Prior to first rupa-jhana is about subduing the hindrances, and then the abandoning of the jhanafactors that are no longer needed. . But there is more in Dhammasangani, Ch II. It deals with the fourfold system and the fivefold system. It also deals with the kasinas of earth, water, fire, air, blue-black, yellow. red. white. Brahmaviharas, foul. In Ch III the arupajhanas. Now I understand more what you are wondering about. You wrote to Jon: He looks at a kasina, and sure, the object of rupajhana is still connected with rupa, it is coarser than arupa jhana. However, looking at earth will change to having a mental image, going away from visible object, it merely begins with looking. It is quite different from our ordinary looking about the house, etc. Nina. Nina. 44267 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Dear Jon, Sarah, and all > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > > If you're saying you've found a new means to the same end that the > > Buddha spoke about, then I'd have to say I'm sceptical ;-)) > > > ...................... > > My first success with a Theravadin skilful means: Jon getting > sceptical > > But it's not enough. I leave DSG, because my annoyance about the > dominant orthodoxy makes me making more and more provocative > messages. And that's not good for anybody. Hi Joop, Oh darn, another member chased off by the supposedly "open" discussion here! Can't say I blame you, but can't say I approve either. After all, I have quit and returned so many times it is embarrassing. Maybe you should do like what I am doing currently: stick around but don't participate as much. After all, every once in a while a real nugget of knowledge comes along that it would be a shame to miss. Anyway, take care. Metta, James 44268 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo and Jon, > I remember discussing with A. Sujin about Sariputta who attained jhana and > was also fanning the Buddha. Dighanakasutta. As I understood, he could enter > and emerge from jhana very quickly and do the fanning movement with > kaamavacara cittas in between. > Nina. I do not see how this would be possible. Was this your conclusion or A. Sujin's? Because the words of Sariputta himself, recorded in the Theragatha (995,996), state: "It was to another that the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma; to the Dhamma-preaching I listened intently for my own good. And not in vain, for freed from all defilements, I gained release." http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html#attain So, are you contenting that Sariputta was entering and exiting jhana, fanning the Buddha, and listening intently to a dhamma discourse, all at the same time? To me, this seems impossible. Metta, James 44269 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. christine_forsy... Hello James, Nina,Jon, all, James, I think you are referring to the passage in the Dighanakha Sutta MN 74 p. 606 of B. Bodhi's translation? v.14 "Now on that occasion the venerable Saariputta was standing behind the Blessed One fanning him. The he thought: "The Blessed One, indeed, speaks of the abandoning of these things through direct knowledge; the Sublime One, indeed, speaks of the relinquishing of these things through direct knowledge." As the venerable Saariputta considered this, through not clinging his mind was liberated from the taints." [attained arahantship] See what you think of the Anupada Sutta 'One by One as They Occurred' MN 111 p. 899 of B. Bodhi's translation, particularly v.20 where there is a more in-depth description (by the Buddha) of how Saariputta attains arahantship. I see no difficulty in MN 111 being an expansion of the incident only touched on in MN 74. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" >>>courtesy snip<<< 44270 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, You say: > He looks at a kasina, and sure, the object of rupajhana is still > connected with rupa [....] However, looking at earth will change to > having a mental image, going away from visible object, it merely >begins with looking. Okay, is there a Pitaka statement that confirms/supports this? And why would earth kasina jhana necessitate the cessation of perception of sensory form (i.e. visible and tactile form), again based upon the Abidhamma Pitaka description of kasina as object of jhana? And kasina jhana aside, there still seems to be no explicit Pitaka statement that says a requirement of the first rupa jhana (anapanasati for example) is the cessation of perception of the five sensory forms (khandha, ayatana, dhatu, whatever), or the cessation of the five sensory form consciousnesses (khandha, dhatu or whatever). Again, the description of the first two of the eight releases/liberations (vimokkha??), and the first two of the eight ?? masteries?? given in MN 77, and the description of 'perception of earth' in MN 121, seems to indicate that bare visible form, no more no less, can be the object of jhana ('external form' in MN 77 and 'earth' in MN 121). Also, the description of jhana given in MN 77 and AN V.28 seems to indicate that the yogi has full awareness of the body in jhana, and possibly, although it's not explicitly stated, that piti and sukha are 'pervading' and 'permeating' the body because they are a result of body phassa. You say: > It is quite different from our ordinary looking about > the house, etc. Yes:-)) Nina, I'm certainly not implying that form jhana is no different than just sitting around, or watching t.v., which involve a much less refined level of samadhi than does jhana, otherwise many couch-potatoes would be highly developed yogis!! But there are many who assert that 'fixed samadhi' regarding form jhana (kasina, anapanasati, and the like) was never a teaching of Buddha, and the closest he came to any type of 'fixed samadhi' was in relation to formless jhana, after cessation of form perception. Geoff 44271 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, I forgot to ask in previous post about this: > ?604: what is diversity of perceptions? The perception, perceiving, state > of perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is > possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of > mano-viñ±¡¡.na-dhaatu).> Isn't this quote also referring to attainment of perception of infinite space? If so, then I don't follow your comment after this verse: > These arise in a sens-door process, having sense objects. This in > contrast to jhana subjects of meditation. Geoff 44272 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >'Are we become a machine running automatically when we are thinking >on different things while the body is in some activities like walking >fast and thinking what to do when we arrive the office?' > >What I believe is that the body is moving and this is cittaja rupa >and without cittas these movements never arise. So among billions of >cittas in distraction (from walking fast) some cittas direct to fast >walking. > >The novice cannot think or direct to his walking if he is in >absorptive jhana cittas. Then those rupas of walking will be cittaja >rupas of abhinna. > >Otherwise, he will have to do entering-coming-out of jhana in a quick >and successive manner. > >Jhana cittas in 1st jhana cannot walk, and 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th >jhana cannot walk. Only abhinna will be able to walk. > > As I understand it, in those with highly developed jhana, jhana cittas may alternate with ordinary (non-jhana) cittas, thus allowing the person to perform an ordinary activity and be 'in jhana' at the same time. I seem to recall references (either in the suttas or commentaries) to those could take their meditation subject on alms round and back again, and I believe this refers to a similar phenomenon -- simultaneous samatha and ordinary activity. Jon 44273 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:06pm Subject: Re: jhana and bodily movement. buddhatrue Hi Christine, Thanks for writing. Chris: I see no difficulty in MN 111 being an expansion of the incident only touched on in MN 74. James: I do see a problem because I don't believe it is possible to be fanning the Buddha, listening to a discourse, and being in jhana at the same time. I agree with Htoo, the body must be still and stable in order to enter jhana. As far as the Anupada Sutta, I don't believe that it is authentic. I have posted about this matter before. I don't believe that it is possible to be in jhana, when the senses are cut off, and then to be aware of sensory input at the same time. It just can't be done. Actually, as far as I know, according to the Abhidhamma this isn't possible either. Jhana cittas are of a particular nature and aren't like the cittas of sensory input. Metta, James 44274 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:59pm Subject: Re: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jonoabb Dear Joop Joop wrote: >My first success with a Theravadin skilful means: Jon getting >sceptical > >But it's not enough. I leave DSG, because my annoyance about the >dominant orthodoxy makes me making more and more provocative >messages. And that's not good for anybody. > >I learned a lot, from other messages, from discussions and from >making - as clear as possible - my messages. >My Global Buddhistic path will continue: with much Theravada input, >and some Mahayana, and without ideas that are for me not the core of >buddhism but old Indian culture. >Thanks and metta > >Joop > > I do hope you won't leave. Your contribution to the list is appreciated by Sarah and me, and by many other members, I'm sure. It takes all types to have a stimulating discussion, but of course it also takes degree of tolerance to the 'fixed positions' of others (especially those infuriating orthodoxists ;-)), and I know this can seem like hard going at times. However, I think you'll find it worth the effort in the long run. I hope you'll stay around. I'm interested in your closing remark about 'ideas that are not the core of Buddhism but old Indian culture'. I was not aware you saw things this way. If possible, please elaborate further. Jon 44275 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Geoff: "...the two suttas that you bring up Larry, MN 77 & MN 121 could possibly be interpreted as stating..." Hi Geoff, "Could possibly be interpreted" is the crux of the matter. If a sutta needs interpretation why not resort to the commentaries and people who have extensive first hand experience? Larry 44276 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 4/11/05 12:10:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > constipation of the heart ==================== Good phrase-making, James!! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44277 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Nina: "Let's talk first about what tranquillity is. It is being removed from attachment to sense objects. It is this kind of tranquillity that is the goal of jhana, not a kind of feeling, feeling tranquil." Hi Nina and Jon, I disagree. I think tranquility here is the tranquility cetasikas, not a concept. As for the role of vitakka and vicara in jhana I found this note in Vism. but the sutta notation doesn't conform; any idea where it comes from? Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). Larry 44278 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Evan Evan_Stamatopou... Christine, Thanks for the lesson. I had heard of some of those terms but most of them were a mystery. Kind Regards, Evan 44279 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... ------------------------------------------ KH: > > Don't forget the story of 'the man, the boy and the donkey.' That ended in tragedy. :-) --Evan You must excuse my ignorance here. I can't forget the story because I don't know the story. Is this some sort of inside joke or am I missing something here? Please let me out of my misery. > Evan: Well, a Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni who can attain at will the 4 lower jhanas would have so much more insight and "mind capability" that there is no way I could see myself making a comment that his/her understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. ------------------------------------------- --KH (I realise you meant to type ' *not* necessarily progressed further than our own.') --Evan Thanks for realising that. It was of course a typo. --KH Sure, a bhikkhu with any of the attainments has progressed further than we have, but you seem to be presuming B. Brahmavamso has done that. Has he said so? In message 44073, Sarah has quoted texts explaining that it takes a wise person to know the attainments of others, and even then, only after a long, close association. I think a bhikkhu who announces attainment puts us all in an invidious position. We don't want to gainsay a bhikkhu, but until we can prove it for ourselves, how can we know whether to believe him or not? Ken H Ken, As far as I know Ajahn Brahm has not made claim to any attainments, however, when I listen to talks from various bhikkhus, I pay particular attention to how they relate their "stories" or discussions. When bhikkhus talk about jhana, it can fairly easily be discerned who is speaking from experience and who is not. Other bikkhus that I have been on retreat with are also capable of these attainments (they are after all only mundane attainments) such as Ven. Mahinda and Ven. Rakkhita. I think that if one is spending many years in seclusion and puts forth energy, with suitable instruction, these attainments are achieved. Kind Regards, Evan 44280 From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > I see that you're talking about me to other people. ;-)) You are > correct, however, I do firmly believe in Buddhist metaphysics. I > even believe in the Buddha's teachings of supernormal powers, which > many in the `core' of this group don't. However, your argument here > is faulty. First, humans are animals in form only, but not in > mind. Secondly, the category of `animals' according to Buddhist > cosmology includes insects, and I don't think you would argue that > humans are insects also, would you? We and insects evolved from the same ancestors and are more similar than not. Seventy percent of the genes found in fruit flies are also present in humans. Our similarity allows us to use the fruit fly genome to understand human biology better, and treat human diseases. The key discoveries for understanding the molecular basis for how the human brain functions have come from the fruit fly. See here: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/23/fruit.fly.genome/ James: > First, humans are animals in form only, but not in > mind. Ah, we finally return to the topic of this thread... "Mind" is not something that just sprang into existence with humans. We can see the gradual emergence of mental functions coinciding with the gradual evolution of brain structure. As we move from simple organisms up the phylogenic chain, we see more elaborate cognitive functions emerging. The simplest brains merely control and coordinate movement and body functions such as heartbeat, blood pressure, fluid balance and body temperature. As the brain evolved in complexity, and especially with the emergence of larger cortices in mammals, we see the gradual emergence of "higher" functions like cognition, emotion, memory, motor learning and other sorts of learning. The difference between our minds and those of our nearest animal relatives is only one of degrees. Matthew 44282 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:28pm Subject: Greetings and salutations foamflowers Hello everyone, My name is Lisa I practice Vipassana meditation taught by SN Goenka for almost 15 years. For six months prior to going to my first meditaton retreat I studied from the Nikayas and in particular from the Majjhima Nikaya. My favorite is the Dhammapada for it's simple and clear message of faith, duty and virtue. The Dhammapada plus the Nikayas gave me inspiration and faith to continue my study and also work very hard to learn meditation, which I had never done before. Three years after introduction to meditation and sutra I studied with a Monk who first introduced me to Dhamma. Sunim (=monk) is a Soen (=Zen) Abbot from Korea and I also went to two or three ten day retreats a year for three years. I sat for ten days and also served for ten days. Sunim left the States to go back to Korea three years after I met him. For the last 12 years I've meditated on my own and studied sutra. Once a year I take a ten day silent Vipassana retreat to sit and serve. This year I will go to a Satipatthana retreat through SN Goenkas meditation center. The view of reality as it is becomes his right view. Thought of reality as it is becomes his right thought. Effort toward reality as it is becomes his right effort. Awareness of reality as it is becomes his right awareness. Concentration on reality as it is becomes his right concentration. His actions of body and speech and his livelihood become truly purified. Thus the Noble Eightfold Path advances him toward development and fulfillment. >149, Maha-Salayatanika Sutta "Those truths of which before I had only heard, now I dwell having experienced them directly within the body, and I observe them with penetrating insight." >S. XLVIII (IV). v. 10 (50), Apana Sutta (spoken by Sariputta, chief >disciple of the Buddha) >(From the introduction to the noble eight fold path in this study) With Metta, Lisa 44283 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, You wrote: ------------------ > You must excuse my ignorance here. I can't forget the story because I don't know the story. Is this some sort of inside joke or am I missing something here? Please let me out of my misery. ------------------- KH: I think it is one of Aesop's Fables. A man sets off for town with his grandson and a donkey. He meets someone who criticises him for making the little boy walk and so he puts him on the donkey. Later, someone says the boy should be taught respect for his elders, and so the man rides while the boy walks. Then someone says, 'That's silly, you should both ride.' Then someone says 'You should be ashamed of yourselves overloading that poor donkey. Get off and carry the donkey.' Struggling under the weight of the donkey, they fall off a bridge and all three of them drown. I think that man had it easy when you consider all the expert advice we Dhamma students are offered. Once we have decided to study the teachings of the Buddha - as found in the ancient Theravadin texts - we should either stick to that decision, or give it away and take up new project. We shouldn't combine different, conflicting, teachings. ----------------- <. . .> E: > As far as I know Ajahn Brahm has not made claim to any attainments, however, when I listen to talks from various bhikkhus, I pay particular attention to how they relate their "stories" or discussions. When bhikkhus talk about jhana, it can fairly easily be discerned who is speaking from experience and who is not. Other bikkhus that I have been on retreat with are also capable of these attainments (they are after all only mundane attainments) such as Ven. Mahinda and Ven. Rakkhita. I think that if one is spending many years in seclusion and puts forth energy, with suitable instruction, these attainments are achieved. ------------------ KH: I know these things can sound convincing, but are they consistent with the Pali Canon and ancient commentaries? From what I have seen and heard of those texts, jhana is a world away from anything ordinary people are capable of. I think it was a quote from the Visuddhimagga where I read that, of every one hundred thousand students (or was it ten thousand?) who undertake training in jhana (and I'm sure that means being accepted by an accomplished teacher; not just trying it on the lounge-room floor) only one will attain access concentration. Of every one hundred thousand who attain access concentration, only one will attain the first jhana. And so on up. Besides all that, we should consider the purpose of developing jhana. You have been told that it sharpens the mind for vipassana practice, but I'm sure that is not in the texts. According to the texts, jhana can become a 'vehicle for vipassana' only for those who have mastered it. You have to be able to enter and exit it at will so that the jhana factors can be taken as objects of vipassana. So, a little bit of practice at home, or even accomplishment in the early jhanas, has no special bearing on satipatthana. In fact, it can be detrimental: if you have the idea that dhammas are known by concentrating - rather than by understanding - then you are on the wrong path. Ken H 44284 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Hi Ken, You wrote: KH: I think it is one of Aesop's Fables. A man sets off for town with his grandson and a donkey. He meets someone who criticises him for making the little boy walk and so he puts him on the donkey. Later, someone says the boy should be taught respect for his elders, and so the man rides while the boy walks. Then someone says, 'That's silly, you should both ride.' Then someone says 'You should be ashamed of yourselves overloading that poor donkey. Get off and carry the donkey.' Struggling under the weight of the donkey, they fall off a bridge and all three of them drown. I think that man had it easy when you consider all the expert advice we Dhamma students are offered. Once we have decided to study the teachings of the Buddha - as found in the ancient Theravadin texts - we should either stick to that decision, or give it away and take up new project. We shouldn't combine different, conflicting, teachings. --Evan Now I understand. When I found Buddhism (or it found me more to the point) I immediately recognised it as the path for me, however, even today I don't try to reject opposing position without reflecting on them and "giving them a chance". KH: I know these things can sound convincing, but are they consistent with the Pali Canon and ancient commentaries? From what I have seen and heard of those texts, jhana is a world away from anything ordinary people are capable of. I think it was a quote from the Visuddhimagga where I read that, of every one hundred thousand students (or was it ten thousand?) who undertake training in jhana (and I'm sure that means being accepted by an accomplished teacher; not just trying it on the lounge-room floor) only one will attain access concentration. Of every one hundred thousand who attain access concentration, only one will attain the first jhana. And so on up. --Evan I will admit to not having read the Visuddhimagga as yet. I nearly ordered it from Amazon yesterday but something stopped me. I will make that purchase soon. However the Nikayas mention the jhanas frequently. The Buddha instructed his disciples to practice the jhanas frequently. Even though the Buddha acknowledges the existence of dry insight meditators and arahants, I don't recall in the suttas that he ever instructed practicing in that way. Whenever he instructed his disciples to practice it was starting off with the jhanas. This comment could cause me a great deal of trouble but I will attempt to thwart that by stating that my memory is the weak point here. If the Buddha did otherwise, please give me the sutta reference and I will reread it. KH: Besides all that, we should consider the purpose of developing jhana. You have been told that it sharpens the mind for vipassana practice, but I'm sure that is not in the texts. According to the texts, jhana can become a 'vehicle for vipassana' only for those who have mastered it. You have to be able to enter and exit it at will so that the jhana factors can be taken as objects of vipassana. --Evan Well, can't the Noble 8-Fold Path be categorised into 3 groups? Virtue, Concentration and Wisdom with each group providing support for the next. Jhana can be used to develop the concentration required for the development of wisdom. KH: So, a little bit of practice at home, or even accomplishment in the early jhanas, has no special bearing on satipatthana. In fact, it can be detrimental: if you have the idea that dhammas are known by concentrating - rather than by understanding - then you are on the wrong path. Ken H --Evan Ken, I have not done "insight" meditation before but I assume that the examination of the rise and fall of phenomena can be called insight meditation. Based on this assumption, if a meditator sits and cannot discern the rise of each and every thought, the sustaining of each and every thought and the fall of each and every thought, how can s/he be said to be and insight meditator? If the meditator sits and notices the rise of each and every thought, the sustaining of each and every thought and the fall of each and every thought, then that meditator is noticing the rise and fall of phenomena of the mind. S/he is an insight meditator. S/he is also in jhana. A mind that is not powerful enough to examine the rise and fall of phenomena (mind or otherwise) is a mind that cannot do "proper" insight meditation. However, and this is the caveat, a dry insight meditator after much practice will develop a mind that is powerful enough to notice the rise and fall of phenomena and therefore can notice enough phenomena at a deep enough level to be called insight meditation. I was under the impression that it is more difficult to be a dry insight meditator than one that comes to wisdom by development of the jhanas. Your Visuddhimagga quote above with the "hundred thousand" would dispel this preconception of mine. I think I had better make that purchase sooner rather than later. Kind Regards, Evan 44285 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:50pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 164- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (n) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] We then read about four kinds of people who are compared to these horses: * >"In this case, monks, here we may have a certain goodly thorough-bred man who hears it said that in such and such a village or township is a woman or a man afflicted or dead. Thereat he is stirred, he feels agitation. Thus agitated he strictly applies himself. Thus applied he both realizes in his own person the supreme truth, and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom… Again, monks, here we may have a goodly thoroughbred man who does not hear it said that in such or such a village or township is a woman or a man afflicted or dead, but with his own eyes sees it. Thereupon he is stirred… Then again, monks, here we may have a certain goodly thoroughbred man who does not hear it said… nor yet with his own eyes sees a woman or man afflicted or dead, but his own kinsman or bloodrelation is afflicted or dead. Thereupon he is stirred… Once more, monks, here we may have a goodly thoroughbred man who neither hears it said… nor yet with his own eyes sees… nor is his own kinsman or blood-relation afflicted or dead, but he himself is stricken with painful bodily feelings, grievous, sharp, racking, distracting, discomforting, that drain the life away. Thereat he is stirred, he feels agitation. Being so stirred he strictly applies himself. Thus applied he both realizes with his own person the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom…"< * Sickness, old age and death are realities of daily life which can remind us of the urgency to develop right understanding, they are like a “goadstick” which can “stir” us. They are the proximate cause of right effort, which is energy for mindfulness of the reality appearing at the present moment. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44286 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 0:21am Subject: Musings6 - Learning Respect from our Mistakes! sarahprocterabb... Dear Nina, Chris, Sukin, Htoo & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) In India I remember Nina and I discussed the errors we often make and our concerns about being careful with what we write. It was helpful to discuss this topic further. A.Sujin’s emphatic comment was to ask ‘who can know all?’. It is respectful to make mistakes and be humble as a result. We all make lots of mistakes and usually we don’t have any idea if we’ve said something wrong. When we know, it’s an opportunity to show respect to the Buddha. Our understanding is so very little and we can appreciate again his great wisdom. When we see the mistakes, it’s an opportunity to study further, appreciate any assistance and ‘begin again’! No one, not even the arahants, could ever know everything the Buddha knew, so let’s be humble. As I’m writing, I’m reflecting again on the simile of the dustrag which was briefly mentioned:. As Nina wrote before: http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv9.html “Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it. One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner, compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there will be more humbleness.....”[see* for sutta extract below] **** Sometimes we all find it difficult to ask questions in discussions and so we reflected again on the various kinds of mana (conceit) that are likely to arise at such times when we are concerned about our limited knowledge, what others may think of us, comparing ourselves to others in anyway and so on. Of course, some people are just quiet by nature or prefer to listen. Only panna (understanding) can know the mental states at any time. From the reminders in Nina's earlier letter again: “It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must lead to letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only impermanent namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can they be as important as before? “ ***** When we make mistakes or have such concerns about how we will appear, what about the reality arising? We may think the problem is the error, concerns about leading others astray or the limited knowledge, but the dhamma is just the reality which is appearing at the time when we think like this. We were also repeatedly reminded that: * ‘only the word cannot help us to have an understanding of dhammas’. In other words, book knowledge is not the same as direct knowledge. I was told that some friends are no longer interested to participate in discussions or really reflect on the dhamma, preferring to translate Pali or develop some other expertise. Is there any real understanding of the dhammas that we study intently or do we often forget that the dhammas are not in 'the book'? Further reminders on this topic: *‘ When it comes to the Abhidhamma, we don’t need to call it anything’ *‘When there is awareness of seeing or visible object, it’s not a word, but a reality’ *‘The Dhamma depends on the understanding of reality. It must be the understanding of the 3 Pitakas.' ***** If we reflect further on the value of the Teachings, we’ll come back again and again to see how much or little we know because we’re reading and talking about the panna (wisdom) of the Buddha and arahants. So, to repeat the point, if we know how very limited our understanding is and welcome our mistakes or foolish pride, we’ll feel very humble and respectful when we read and reflect further and especially when panna grows and appreciates this more. We also discussed more on aspects of patience, such as wholesome effort and non-aversion, when we face difficulties or hear harsh speech. (to be contd) Metta, Sarah *From 'Sariputta's Lion's Roar', p231,’Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'(Bodhi)' "Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow monk and leave without an apology. "Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things soiled....... "Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things soiled.... "Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean..... "Lord, just as a duster wipes over things clean and unclean, things soiled with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like a duster.... "Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will...... ======== 44287 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings5 - Burning sarahprocterabb... Dear Nina. Thank you for your additional comments. Just on the last point about the derivation: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > I looked up in PED jhaayati and found two meanings: burning and thinking > closely of an object. > There are two different stems. Thinking closely of an object jhaayati, > sk. > dhyaayati, and burning, of another stem (sk. ksaayati). Also text > references > are given but that is quite a study. ... S: Yes, I remember that Jim wrote about this before and I should have referred to this message again before mentioning any stem:-/: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3184?ordered=1 Actually I did check the derivation of jhana in the PTS dict, but under jhana, for the derivation, it just gave the note I mentioned: Jhana (p. 286) (nt.) [from jhayati,(1) BSk. dhyana. I didn’t go further. Now jhayati (1) which it refers to, is the first stem you mention above, derived from sk dhyaayati, but as you point out, this is given as being derived from didheti – shine, perceive and in meaning meditate, contemplate etc, rather than burning. Both in India (in brief) and on this visit (in more detail), K.Sujin was only interested in (emphatically) stressing the meaning of ‘burning’ for jhana. When she asked me initially on the meaning as I understood it, I briefly mentioned the other derivation and meaning of shining etc (which you’d reminded me of after I last wrote to BB), but as I say she just stressed the ‘burning’ aspect in the context of the two kinds of jhana. I’ll pursue it further next time (or we can in India perhaps). I like this quote from the Vism which I had intended to include and may if I re-write that Musing (leaving out any jhana derivation:-)): 1,7 “Develops Consciousness and Understanding : develops both concentration and insight. For it is concentration that is described here under the heading of ‘consciousness’, and insight under that of ‘understanding’. [4] Ardent (atapin) : possessing energy. For it is energy that is called ‘ardour (atapa)’ in the sense of burning up and consuming (atapana-paritapana) defilements. He has that, thus he is ardent. Sagacious: it is understanding that is called ‘sagacity’; possessing that, is the meaning.” Gunaratana also has a paragraph in his book on the Jhanas on the etymology*. It would be useful to have access perhaps to the section in Vin A which he mentions. He refers here to ‘jhapeti’ to burn up, but I see in PTS dict that jhapeti can mean jhayati: ‘to destroy by means of jhana’. When the Pali gives jhaayati or jhaayattha in context, I also wonder how anyone knows which stem the form used is derived from. For example, can we translate the line as” “Burn up or destroy the mental defilements (by developing samatha and insight), Ananda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later....”???? Metta, Sarah *>Etymology of Jhana The great Buddhist commentator Buddhaghosa traces the Pali word "jhana" (Skt. dhyana) to two verbal forms. One, the etymologically correct derivation, is the verb jhayati, meaning to think or meditate; the other is a more playful derivation, intended to illuminate its function rather than its verbal source, from the verb jhapeti meaning to burn up. He explains: "It burns up opposing states, thus it is jhana" (Vin.A. i, 116), the purport being that jhana "burns up" or destroys the mental defilements preventing the developing the development of serenity and insight. In the same passage Buddhaghosa says that jhana has the characteristic mark of contemplation (upanijjhana). Contemplation, he states, is twofold: the contemplation of the object and the contemplation of the characteristics of phenomena. The former is exercised by the eight attainments of serenity together with their access, since these contemplate the object used as the basis for developing concentration; for this reason these attainments are given the name "jhana" in the mainstream of Pali meditative exposition. However, Buddhaghosa also allows that the term "jhana" can be extended loosely to insight (vipassana), the paths and the fruits on the ground that these perform the work of contemplating the characteristics of things the three marks of impermanence, suffering and non-self in the case of insight, Nibbana in the case of the paths and fruits. In brief the twofold meaning of jhana as "contemplation" and "burning up" can be brought into connection with the meditative process as follows. By fixing his mind on the object the meditator reduces and eliminates the lower mental qualities such as the five hindrances and promotes the growth of the higher qualities such as the jhana factors, which lead the mind to complete absorption in the object. Then by contemplating the characteristics of phenomena with insight, the meditator eventually reaches the supramundane jhana of the four paths, and with this jhana he burns up the defilements and attains the liberating experience of the fruits. < 44288 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H christine_forsy... Hello KenH, :-) I think I prefer this Sufi tale of Mulla Nasruddin to the Aesops' fable you told us - has a kinder ending ... 'Mulla and his son were riding the donkey to the town market. A group of people passed. Mulla heard them whisper: "what times are these ? look at those two, have no mercy on the poor animal !" Mulla hearing this tells his son to get off and continue the journey on foot. Another group of people passing by and seeing this comment: "What times are these ? look at this man. His poor son with his frail body has to walk while he at his best age is riding the donkey !" Hearing this mulla tells his son to ride the donkey and he himself gets off to walk the rest of the way. A third group of people seeing this remark: "What times are these ? This young man is riding the donkey while his sickly old father has to walk ! " Hearing this mulla tells his son to get off the animal and they both walk with the donkey trailing behind. Another group passing by point to them laughing: "look at these idiots. They have a donkey and they are walking all the way to the market !"' INTERPRETATIONS: People bray like donkeys. Listen to your heart As many mouths, as many opinions http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nasrudin#people.27s_talk metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > Struggling under the weight of the donkey, they > fall off a bridge and all three of them drown. 44289 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections sarahprocterabb... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > I think it's pretty clear what is meant and what should be done. > Only remaining question to me is whether or not someone can do it. ... S: What do you think? Can anyone do anything? Metta, Sarah S:> > Even the first few lines in chapter 111 need a lot of discussion, > > understanding and reflection, I think. How about you? 44290 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Sarah sarahprocterabb... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > S: in short, I'm sticking to my story for now:-). > I would not expect anything less. ... S: LOL - anyway, I'll get back to that later. I certainly raised all the references which you and Dhammanando had pointed me to. ... > > > S: references which make it clear that those with 2 roots cannot > reach > > enlightenment or attain jhanas. The rest we infer differently > >according to our understanding. > Yes that's what I'm told too. I don't infer anything, I just > recite what I'm taught. ... S: Isn't that inferring if you agree with what you recite? ... > > > more specific references, we can just leave it open and agree we > don't > > know:-/. > Apparently there isn't any conclusive references so I'll happily > leave it at that also. ... S: From this I gather that your teacher is not saying categorically that satipatthana and stages of insight can be obtained with 2 roots as you indicated before, so we're all in agreement:-). I appreciate your going back and raising it again. Your teachers know the texts extremely well, so I'm grateful that you can help check points with them. Metta, Sarah ====== 44291 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: Musings6 - Learning Respect from our Mistakes! christine_forsy... Hello Sarah, and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >>>snipped for brevity only<<< >Sometimes we all find it difficult to ask questions in discussions >and so we reflected again on the various kinds of mana (conceit) >that are likely to arise at such times when we are concerned about >our limited knowledge,what others may think of us, comparing >ourselves to others in anyway and so on. Of course, some people are >just quiet by nature or prefer to listen. Only panna >(understanding) can >know the mental states at any time. I remember this discussion and the hesitancy I felt about asking questions with a number of members present (some with vibrant outgoing personalities) who had known each other and had been 'doing Dhamma' for thirty years or more. But I also remember feeling exactly the same and making the same discoveries about what Mana actually is and realising that I could 'see' mana in [just about] everything I said and did, when I first visited Bangkok. Looking through the Useful Posts on Conceit (mana), I came across this oldie - three years ago - and wonder why I don't feel any further 'advanced'. When will I be done with it?! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17732 metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 44292 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:24am Subject: Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 Dear Tep, I think you may have taken my comment "too busy doing nothing", a little too seriously - it was meant to be a tiny joke - but never mind. I was in fact, visiting a friend who used to be a monk in T'land and Sri Lanka & who disrobed a few years ago. We discussed the cetasika Sanna, which arises with every citta, and how it is Sanna that allows us to remember ea. other when we meet. It is great having a friend who can say to you, while waiting at the bus stop, that in fact there is no 'us' to wait & no bus or bus stop, that what we think about is just an illusion. I think your quote from the Theragatha is a wonderful reminder. I will write it in my diary, so I can read it often and hopefully, be a condition for me not to be heedless. May we all be well and happy, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Azita - > > Because RobK advised as follows: > > -- This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive to > find the right way. > > And because you admitted that you were then "too busy doing > nothing". > > Furthermore, according to Theragatha VI.13 : > > "Make the day not-in-vain, a little or a lot. > However much the day passes, that's how much less is life. > Your last day approaches. This isn't your time to be heedless". > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > 44293 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, -------------------------------- E: > When I found Buddhism (or it found me more to the point) I immediately recognised it as the path for me, however, even today I don't try to reject opposing position without reflecting on them and "giving them a chance". ------------------ KH: I agree there is no need for censorship. We can read as many philosophies we like, but we should not be thinking, "All teachings lead to the same goal," or anything silly like that. ----------------------- E: > the Nikayas mention the jhanas frequently. The Buddha instructed his disciples to practice the jhanas frequently. Even though the Buddha acknowledges the existence of dry insight meditators and arahants, I don't recall in the suttas that he ever instructed practicing in that way. Whenever he instructed his disciples to practice it was starting off with the jhanas. This comment could cause me a great deal of trouble but I will attempt to thwart that by stating that my memory is the weak point here. If the Buddha did otherwise, please give me the sutta reference and I will reread it. ---------------- KH: In the useful posts file, under "Dry Insight," there is one post from Nina (12371) and two from Robert K (30793 and 30799). I think they will answer your questions. -------------------------------- E: > Well, can't the Noble 8-Fold Path be categorised into 3 groups? Virtue, Concentration and Wisdom with each group providing support for the next. Jhana can be used to develop the concentration required for the development of wisdom. --------------------------------------------------------- No, it doesn't work that way. Every moment of right understanding has virtue, concentration and wisdom. (To be more specific; it has the cetasikas, adosa, samadhi and panna and sometimes virati.) That is the way the Eightfold Path is developed - all the factors together, not as eight individual steps. -------------------------------------------- E: > I have not done "insight" meditation before but I assume that the examination of the rise and fall of phenomena can be called insight meditation. Based on this assumption, if a meditator sits and cannot discern the rise of each and every thought, the sustaining of each and every thought and the fall of each and every thought, how can s/he be said to be and insight meditator? -------------------------------------------- KH: That is the version of insight meditation you will see everywhere except in the original texts. In fact, meditation (mental development, bhavana) is a momentary phenomenon (just like everything else that is absolutely real). In a moment of consciousness at any one of the six door, panna and sati arise to experience an object. At the intellectual level the object is an idea (e.g., some part of the Buddha's teaching) and at the practice level (satipatthana) the object is a nama or a rupa. In either case, insight meditation is a moment of conditioned reality; it is not a formal procedure of sitting quietly and/or concentrating. It can happen at any time, provided the right conditions have been accumulated. There must be no belief in control over conditioned dhammas: that would contradict everything the Buddha taught. Ken H 44294 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Christine, How on earth did you find that? On second thoughts, don't tell me: I will never be internet proficient. Is that ending kind enough for you? Or should the donkey have a straw hat with holes for his ears? :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello KenH, :-) > > I think I prefer this Sufi tale of Mulla Nasruddin to the Aesops' > fable you told us - has a kinder ending ... > > 'Mulla and his son were riding the donkey to the town market. A 44295 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:46am Subject: Re: Musings6 - Learning Respect from our Mistakes! htootintnaing --- snip --- snip --- In other words, book knowledge is not the same as direct knowledge. I was told that some friends are no longer interested to participate in discussions or really reflect on the dhamma, preferring to translate Pali or develop some other expertise. Is there any real understanding of the dhammas that we study intently or do we often forget that the dhammas are not in 'the book'? --- snip --- snip --- Metta, Sarah --- snip --- snip --- -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah and All, Yes. We often forget that the dhammas are not in 'the book'. When I first came here, I posted a topic as 'Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind'. But it has to be seen as not everyone is seeing the Dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: I like the whole post, Sarah. Especially dustrag, earth, fire, wind, water etc. 44296 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo and Jon, I remember discussing with A. Sujin about Sariputta who attained jhana and was also fanning the Buddha. Dighanakasutta. As I understood, he could enter and emerge from jhana very quickly and do the fanning movement with kaamavacara cittas in between. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your message. It is clear enough to understand how jhana cittas and kaamaavacara cittas can arise in very close successions. With much respect, Htoo 44297 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings5 - Burning htootintnaing .... S: Is there any 'formally' in the Pali? :-)) Metta, Sarah ======== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, You know. I know. Most know. Pali does not say 'formal'. But Suttas do say, 'Meditate, Ananda, meditate. Otherwise you will regret' ; 'Meditate, Cunda, meditate. Otherwise you will regret. This is our instruction to you'. If one does not meditate, he or she is not following The Buddha's word. But what does 'meditate' mean here? Does that mean 'go to a forest, go to the foot of a tree, go to a silent place, go to an unoccupied place and sit in a crosslegged position with erect body posture and putting the mind in front (abhimukhii)? With much respect, Htoo Naing 44298 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings and salutations sarahprocterabb... Hi Lisa (M?),(Chris & Evan in passing) Many thanks for your great intro about your background in Dhamma and for the quotes at the end. I'm sure others will be very interested in it too. I hope you enjoy your time and find it useful here on DSG. Please join in any threads or start your own anytime. If you're unfamiliar with so many Pali words being used, I recommend you print out the Pali glossary in the 'files' and keep a handy link to Nyantiloka's dictionary for any detail. Even better, feel very free to ask for explanations anytime. Very glad to see your enthusiasm for the Nikayas and Dhp. Pls keep giving us any favourite quotes. Whereabouts in the US do you live? I think we have members in most states. Jon and I live in Hong Kong and others are all over the world, but with quite a noisy Australian 'mafia' posting at the moment:-)[and yes, Chris and Evan, Jon knew he was a 'Crow-Eater', but it was news to me that I was married to one:-/]. Thank you again for telling us about yourself. Metta, Sarah p.s Another Lisa joined us fairly recently and there may still be Dan's wife, Lisa D lurking, so I added a tentative (M?).... --- Lisa wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > My name is Lisa I practice Vipassana meditation taught by SN Goenka > for almost 15 years. For six months prior to going to my first > meditaton retreat I studied from the Nikayas and in particular from > the Majjhima Nikaya. My favorite is the Dhammapada for it's simple and > clear message of faith, duty and virtue. The Dhammapada plus the > Nikayas gave me inspiration and faith to continue my study and also > work very hard to learn meditation, which I had never done before. <...> 44299 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (319) htootintnaing Follow up clarification: Htoo wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, The aim of writing Dhamma Thread posts is to go through necessary Dhamma for understanding and then to move on to merging with daily activities. -- snip -- The Buddha saw all beings at their cuti, at their patisandhi when dibbacakkhu nana arose in the middle watch of His 35th birthday, on which He became a Sammasambuddha. There is a unique system which life should be followed after which life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Deva means 'celestiel being' and cakkhu means 'eye'. Deva-cakkhu or dibbacakkhu means 'the eye of deva'. This is just a name for understanding. This is a kind of nana or a kind of jhana power that can penetrate all darkness, all hidden sight, all far sight as far as on the other side of the whole universe. Dibbacakkhu can see inside the body and outside the body. Especially Dibbacakkhu of The Buddha has no obstruction at all. Once there was a competition between a great Brahma and The Buddha. Actually The Buddha was not competing but the Brahma did. They hid each in turn. At first each saw another wherever he hid. Just before the end of competition, the Brahma created himself a very very very small and tiny and minute being and hid in a very very small seed. But The Buddha smiled and saw him. And said, 'come out Mr Brahma, you are in that seed and I do see you hiding there.' The Brahma was shocked. The Buddha said, 'now you should try to look for me'. The Brahma did not find The Buddha and he went here and there. He looked up and down. He went to the end of the universe and back and forth. But he did so in vain and he did not find The Buddha. 'O! Lord Buddha. I am defeated. Where do you hide?' The Buddha just said, 'I am walking on your eye-brow. You did not find me because you are not pure and your mind is defiled with dirt. Try to clear away all these defilements including 'maana' or 'conceit' that makes you proud and tried to compete someone like The Buddha'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44300 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (320) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 separate realms, where different beings arise and persist there as long as they have not moved to another realm or the same realm. When one being dies and is reborn in the same realm, it is not him that apparently living 2 lifespans. The first lifespan was occupied by a being and next lifespan is occupied by a separate being. When we closely look into the matter there is no being at all. But just arising and passing away of different cittas, which again depend on different rupas in different ways. Some rupa stands as an object or arammana for cittas and some rupa stands as a vatthu or base, where citta and cetasikas, that is nama dhamma have to depend on, dwell on, stand on, ground on, base on, house on, or home on. Rupa dhamma have been discussed to some details in earlier posts in Dhamma Thread. Nama and rupa act together and perform their specific function according to conditions that arise. Nama dhamma and rupa dhamma work together and this condition is called vippayutta paccaya or dissociation condition. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44301 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (321) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi or 'neither perception nor non-perception' non-material realm. 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi or 'nothingness' non-material realm 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi or 'sphere of boundless consciousness' non-material realm 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi or 'sphere of boundless space' non-material realm If someone is in 28th realm and he dies, where will he go or where is he going to be reborn in his next life? Non-material being in 28th realm can be reborn in the same realm with the same lifespan. This happens because he has long been staying in arupa jhana and when marana or death approaches, he continues to develop arupa jhana and when dies, he is reborn in the same realm. Some non-material beings in 28th realm, during the course of life, discover higher arupa jhana and they develop higher arupa jhana and when they die they can be reborn in non-material realm of their attained arupa jhana. So beings in 28th realm can be reborn in 28th, 29th, 30th and 31st bhumi or realm. But these beings will not develop rupa jhana as they already excluded rupa jhana. So they will never be reborn in rupa brahma bhumi or fine material realms. Arupa brahma do have kamavacara cittas. When kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise when they are dying, then they can be reborn in kama bhumis. But not in woeful planes of existence. When they are reborn in kama bhumi, they will be reborn with tihetuka patisandhi. So where do they go, after death in their arupa brahma bhumi. 1. the same realm or higher( so if 28th realm then to 28th realm) 2. to 29th realm 3. to 30th realm 4. to 31st realm 5. 6th deva realm (paranimmitavassavatii deva realm) 6. 5th deva realm (nimmanarati deva realm) 7. 4th deva realm (tusitaa deva realm) 8. 3rd deva realm (yaamaa deva realm) 9. 2nd deva realm (taavatimsaa deva realm) 10.1st deva realm (catumahaaraajika deva realm) 11. to manussa bhumi or human realm When they are reborn in kaama bhumi or sensuous planes, they are reborn with tihetuka patisandhi cittas. So all their bhavanga cittas will also be tihetuka cittas and when they die tihetuka cucti citta will arise as the last moment consciousness. Arupa brahmas cannot go to or cannot be reborn in 4 apaaya bhumi or 4 woeful planes of existence. They cannot be reborn in rupa brahma bhumi. They cannot be reborn in asannasatta brahma bhumi. Otherwise they can be reborn in arupa realms of the same or higher. But they cannot be reborn in the lower arupa realms. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44302 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Evan, Matthew, and James (and all) - In a message dated 4/11/05 11:32:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > Matthew: > "Mind" is not something that just sprang into existence with humans. > > Evan: > Indeed, humans are something that spring into existence with mind. > > Kind Regards, > > Evan > ======================= Evan, my perspective is closer to yours than Matthew's. But what I would like to point out is that a certain degree of closeness of point of view on basics is required for discussions that depend on such core views. One whose basic framework is materialism will rarely interact usefully with one whose basic framework is a (philosophical) idealism or is a radical phenomenalism on an issue for which core view has great impact. It is almost like a German speaking to a Cantonese, each not knowing the other's language - at least that is how it seems to me. Typically, an idealist or phenomenalist perspective appears extremely odd if not utterly absurd to a materialist. (Less so in the opposite direction, because modern society is materialist-oriented, philosophically.) What may help in explaining an idealist/phenomenalist perspective to a materialist Buddhist is how an idealist/phenomenalist perspective makes an understanding of "rebirth" easier. (Of course, many materialist Buddhists reject rebirth as just a metaphor or a case of the Buddha not really meaning it when he talks about it. This stands to reason, because one would be extraordinarily hard pressed to come up with a physical mechanism accounting for rebirth.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44303 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread (322) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa These 5 realms are fine material realms of pure abode. They are called suddavaasa bhumi or 'pure abode'. They are called pure dweller because they all are ariya brahma. Anagams in other realms are reborn in these 5 realms. Who can come to these 5 realms? Where do these rupa brahmas go after their death? They are initially anagams and in the course of their long life in these 5 realms, they all become arahats and they all do parinibbana or final death in these 5 realms and there is no more rebirth after the life in '5 pure abode' or 'suddhavaasa bhuumi'. Who can come to these 5 realms. 1. anaagams from muanussa bhumi or human realm 2. anaagams from catumaharajika deva realm 3. anagams from tavatimsa deva realm 4. anagams from yama deva realm 5. anagams from tusita deva realm 6. anagams from nimmanarati deva realm 7. anagams from paranimmitavassavatii deva realm 8. anagams from brahma-parisajjaa rupa brahma realm 9. anagams from brahma-purohitaa rupa brahma realm 10.anagams from maha-brahma rupa brahma realm 11.anagams from parittaabhaa rupa brahma realm 12.anagams from appamaanaabhaa rupa brahma realm 13.anagams from aabhassaraa rupa brahma realm 14.anagams from paritasubhaa rupa brahma realm 15.anagams from appamaanasubhaa rupa brahma realm 16.anagams from subhakinhnaa rupa brahma realm 17.anagams from vehapphalaa rupa brahma realm 18.anagams from akasanancayatana arupa brahma realm 19.anagams from vinnanancayatana arupa brahma realm 20.anagams from akincinnayatana arupa brahma realm 21.anagams from nevasannanasannayatana arupa brahma realm All other beings from unstated bhumi cannot come to these 5 pure abode. And other lower ariyas like sakadagams and sotapams in the stated realms of 21 cannot come to these 5 realms. Asannasattas cannot be reborn in these ariya bhumis. Apaaya beings cannot be reborn in these 5 pure abode. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:42am Subject: Re: Farewell, I hope not. nilovg Dear Joop. I also hope you will not leave. I like provocative messages, otherwise we shall all go to sleep! Like Jon I am also curious about old Indian culture, it must be good. I have a weak spot for anything Indian. Looking forward to many more unorthodox remarks from you, Nina. op 11-04-2005 23:59 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jsabbott@...: > I do hope you won't leave. 44305 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: > "Mind" is not something that just sprang into existence with humans. > We can see the gradual emergence of mental functions coinciding with > the gradual evolution of brain structure. As we move from simple > organisms up the phylogenic chain, we see more elaborate cognitive > functions emerging. The simplest brains merely control and > coordinate movement and body functions such as heartbeat, blood > pressure, fluid balance and body temperature. As the brain evolved in > complexity, and especially with the emergence of larger cortices in > mammals, we see the gradual emergence of "higher" functions like > cognition, emotion, memory, motor learning and other sorts of > learning. The difference between our minds and those of our nearest > animal relatives is only one of degrees. > > Matthew We seem to be getting off the beaten track. I don't disagree with evolution and I don't know why any Buddhist would disagree with evolution. Yes, humans and animals (and to a lesser extent, insects) have many things in common. So? That still doesn't mean that humans are animals or insects in all ways. I thought the point that we were arguing is that you believe the brain is the mind and I believe they are not the same thing. In the immaterial planes, the mind exists with no physical body whatsoever. That is enough to prove that the brain isn't the mind. The brain is simply a physical manifestation of the mind, and the mind (consciousness and mental factors) are attached to that physical manifestation in this realm of existence. It is kamma that determines how long the mind will exist within any particular sphere of being. Really, this is Buddhism basics. I linked you to that article to read about the 31 Planes of Existence and you wrote about people who "cling to Buddhist metaphysics". ;-)) I looked at your Yahoo profile and it shows that you are very interested in Buddhism, so I am somewhat perplexed as to why this is an issue for you. One cannot pick and choose what to believe from the Buddha because everything he taught fits together. Karma may seem metaphysical but it is reality; rebirth may seem metaphysical but it is reality; enlightenment may seem metaphysical but it is reality. Just keep practicing meditation and I'm sure your doubts will disappear. Metta, James 44306 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:40am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > Yes, humans and animals (and to a lesser extent, > insects) have many things in common. Umm, insects (and homo sapiens) *are* animals. They are members of the kingdom Animalia. Matthew 44307 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:51am Subject: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma rjkjp1 Dear Matthew, Just bringing up a point from one of your old posts. You mention vipassana, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: > > Vipassana and other forms of meditation could be considered > introspective, biofeedback techniques to directly alter one's own > brain chemistry and turn off these areas. > > Why would we want to do this? Well, for one thing, it tends to be a > pleasant experience (though for some people, it may lead to psychotic > episodes). > Of course, this is not always the case. A lifetime of tinkering with > one's own brain chemistry may cause some people to become withdrawn, > anti-social or even delusional. Arguably, the Buddha himself > suffered from delusions such as possessing omniscience and > superpowers, seeing all of his former "rebirths," visiting alternate > universes and meeting Devas. > >_________ If we agree that the Buddha was the teacher and master of vipassana then by your understanding wouldn't vipassana be the last thing one would want to do? robertk 44308 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:06am Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum robertk: > If we agree that the Buddha was the teacher and master of vipassana > then by your understanding wouldn't vipassana be the last thing one > would want to do? Not necessarily. But I do think that the potential dangers of intensive meditation should not be taken lightly, especially if someone has a pre-existing psychiatric problem, such as schizophrenia. In an earlier post, James wrote: > I have also had similar experiences of > terror during meditation... > Insight, at the beginning stages, is > naturally unsettling and disturbing > and downright terrifying. For some people, such experiences might cause long-term psychological problems. I have also read reports of psychotic episodes, hallucinations, chronic headaches and other neurological problems brought on or exacerbated by meditation. I'll try to track down the references if anyone is interested. Matthew 44309 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:22am Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Here's a summary of some of the negative side effects of meditation that have been reported: "Not all effects of the practice of meditation are beneficial. Shapiro (1992) found that 62.9% of the subjects reported adverse effects during and after meditation and 7.4% experienced profoundly adverse effects. The length of practice (from 16 to 105 months) did not make any difference to the quality and frequency of adverse effects. These adverse effects were relaxation-induced anxiety and panic; paradoxical increases in tension; less motivation in life; boredom; pain; impaired reality testing; confusion and disorientation; feeling 'spaced out'; depression; increased negativity; being more judgmental; and, ironically, feeling addicted to meditation. "Other adverse effects described (Craven, 1989) are uncomfortable kinaesthetic sensations, mild dissociation, feelings of guilt and, via anxiety-provoking phenomena, psychosis-like symptoms, grandiosity, elation, destructive behaviour and suicidal feelings. Kutz et al. (1985a,b) described feelings of defencelessness, which in turn produce unpleasant affective experiences, such as fear, anger, apprehension and despair. Sobbing and hidden memories and themes from the past, such as incest, rejection, and abandonment appeared in intense, vivid forms and challenged the subject's previously constructed image of their past and themselves. On the other hand, it is not uncommon to encounter a meditator who claims that has found 'the answers' when in fact he has been actively engaged in a subtle manoeuvre of avoiding his basic questions." from "Meditation: concepts, effects and uses in therapy" by Alberto Perez-De-Albeniz and Jeremy Holmes International Journal of Psychotherapy, Mar2000, Vol. 5 Issue 1, p49, 10p full article: http://www.trancenet.org/research/2000perezdealbeniz.shtml#side- effects Matthew 44310 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, I have to take time to study the texts you gave. I like your approach, investigating the Tipitaka, and you ask your questions not for the sake of debating. op 11-04-2005 23:18 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: >> ?604: > what is diversity of perceptions? The perception, perceiving, state >> of perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is >> possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of >> mano-viñ±¡¡.na-dhaatu).> > > Isn't this quote also referring to attainment of perception of > infinite space? N: Yes, but see the crux below. G: If so, then I don't follow your comment after this > verse: > N: These arise in a sens-door process, having sense objects. This in >> contrast to jhana subjects of meditation. perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is >> possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of >> mano-viññaa.na-dhaatu) The person who has *not* attained to jhana. Thus, the person who has attained does not experience sense objects. Here is the contrast that may help. I try another approach but I do not know whether you find this helpful. There are four planes of citta: sensuous plane (kaamaavacara), citta that experiences sense objects. Rupajhaana plane, arupajhaanaplane, lokuttara plane. Only the first plane experiences sense objects. In the Path of Discrimination, p. 82, three planes of citta (not the unincluded, which is lokuttara) are combined with the planes of existence. But as to the material sphere plane (the fine material, or rupa-jhana) it is said:< included are those who have reached this in meditation, are abiding in comfort here and now, which ideas have their sphere here...> The Dhammasangani (Ch II and III0 and the Book of Analysis give paralel texts. When a person has attained jhana he can have a blow on his head (I read about Sariputta, but I am not sure where) and not feel anything. No sense objects. There may be thunder or the rolling of hundreds of chariots, but he will not hear anything. See: The Mahaaparinibbaana sutta, Pukhusa who could attain jhana and did not hear anything. Nina. 44311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. nilovg Hi Larry and Sarah, First of all Sarah, thank you, very interesting texts. op 12-04-2005 01:35 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > I disagree. I think tranquility here is the tranquility cetasikas, not a > concept. N: Right, there are two cetasikas which are calm. They accompany each sobhana citta. Citta intent on daana, on siila and on bhaavana. When we are generous, there is a degree of calm, but such moments are very short, and thus the characteristic of calm is not very noticeable. in Jhaana calm is more developed. For the development of jhana it is essential to know the characteristic of calm and not to take lobha for calm. L: As for the role of vitakka and vicara in jhana I found this note in > Vism. but the sutta notation doesn't conform; any idea where it comes > from? > > Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing > (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). > Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa > vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). N: Very good. PED gives for appanaa: fix, turn or direct the mind. Co to Abh. Sangaha, T.A. p. 35: And, also the burning up comes here! <.. and it is jhaana because of contemplating the object and burning up (jhaapana) the enemies [i.e. the hindrances]. For the designation 'jhaana' refers simply to the arising together of the factors of jhaana, just as the designation 'chariot' refers to the arising together of the parts such as the wheel rim, etc. Therefore it is said in the Vibhanga that "jhaana is application of thought, examining, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness'. ..> The M III text brings me to vitakka, right thinking. Also the Milinda text 62. Thus the word absorption, appanaa can denote vitakka and vicaara. But as said before, when there is more skill and calm has grown he can be absorbed without these two grosser factors. Now the continuation of footnote 4: Nina. 44312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. nilovg Dear Azita and Tep, yes, wonderful verse, thanks. Nina. op 12-04-2005 12:24 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > Furthermore, according to Theragatha VI.13 : >> >> "Make the day not-in-vain, a little or a lot. >> However much the day passes, that's how much less is life. >> Your last day approaches. This isn't your time to be heedless". >> 44313 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:04pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > Here's a summary of some of the negative side effects of meditation > that have been reported: Hi Matthew, Thanks for the link to this interesting article; however, there is a significant problem with the findings you quote. As the article states: "The side-effect profile summarised also resembles many of the neurotic/anxiety constellation of symptoms. None of the studies reviewed tried to disentangle the effects of meditation per se from the influence of the presenting problem or/and premorbid personality of the subjects. It is unclear whether certain personality types are more likely to try meditation or whether the effect of meditation increases the awareness of those feelings, symptoms and personality traits (Morse, 1984)." http://www.trancenet.org/research/2000perezdealbeniz.shtml#side- In other words, these studies were done on people who were in psychotherapy for various psychological problems and meditation is not a cure for psychological problems. To be blunt, someone who is crazy before meditation is going to be just as crazy after meditation. The meditation isn't necessarily going to make that person crazy and these studies don't make an effort to determine the effects of the meditation separate from the psychological state of the patients studied. Also, the article had some rather positive things to say about meditation: "Most literature in scientific journals and research about meditation has been based on this personal health-enhancing aspect (Epstein, 1990; Globus, 1980; Leuschitz & Harlman, 1996; Russell, 1986; Shapiro, 1994; Tyler, 1977; West, 1987). Atwood & Maltin (1991) described how meditation helps the patient to understand that there are no quick solutions. It develops patience: to be aware of the problem before attempting to solve it. It promotes a non- judgmental attitude, it helps the patient to come to terms with 'what is', rather than to fight hopelessly for 'what might be', or 'might have been'. It helps people to be comfortable with ambiguity, ignorance and uncertainty. Meditators learn to recognise and trust their inner nature and wisdom. Meditation fosters the recognition of personal responsibility. The meditator's feelings during and about meditation itself cannot be displaced or disowned." Metta, James 44314 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:40pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > the article had some rather positive things to say about > meditation Yes, it did. However, I was quoting the article in the context of a discussion of the possible negative side-effects of meditation. James: > In other words, these studies were done on people who were in > psychotherapy for various psychological problems and meditation is > not a cure for psychological problems. To be blunt, someone who is > crazy before meditation is going to be just as crazy after > meditation. The meditation isn't necessarily going to make that > person crazy There is another study at the same website. It was done in Germany and involved 67 meditators who were "normal" (that is, not exclusively selected from psychiatric patients). The study examined the effect of Transcendental Meditation (TM) in various areas of life. Many of the findings were similar to the other studies I cited: 76% of cases investigated had psychological or psychiatric disorders which occurred during the TM phase and as a result of the practice of TM In some cases psychiatric disorders already present came to a state of total breakdown. 26% had nervous breakdowns. Before the TM phase, 6 people were in therapeutic care, during or after the TM phase the number of those who visited a doctor because of psychological or psychiatric disorder rose to 29. The percentage of people who underwent therapy as a result of such disorders therefore rose from 9% to 43%. 63% experienced serious physical complaints. 70% recorded a worsening ability to concentrate. Researchers found a startling drop in honesty among long-term meditators. The TM movement attempted to suppress this report in German courts, but its findings were upheld by the German high court (The Federal Republic of Germany: OVG Muenster: 5 A 1152/84, The Bundesverwaltungsgericht: 23.5.87 7 C 2.87, The Bundesverfassungsgericht: 1 BvR 881/89). See here: http://www.trancenet.org/research/chap1.shtml Matthew 44315 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > James: > > the article had some rather positive things to say about > > meditation > > Yes, it did. However, I was quoting the article in the context of a > discussion of the possible negative side-effects of meditation. Honestly, I haven't been following the entire discussion. Sorry if my comments seemed out of place but I thought they were appropriate- regardless of the prior discussion. > > James: > > In other words, these studies were done on people who were in > > psychotherapy for various psychological problems and meditation is > > not a cure for psychological problems. To be blunt, someone who is > > crazy before meditation is going to be just as crazy after > > meditation. The meditation isn't necessarily going to make that > > person crazy > > There is another study at the same website. It was done in Germany > and involved 67 meditators who were "normal" (that is, not exclusively > selected from psychiatric patients). The study examined the effect of > Transcendental Meditation (TM) in various areas of life. Many of the > findings were similar to the other studies I cited: Thanks for the information but Transcendental Meditation isn't Vipassana. > > Matthew Metta, James 44316 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Hi Ken, KH: I agree there is no need for censorship. We can read as many philosophies we like, but we should not be thinking, "All teachings lead to the same goal," or anything silly like that. --Evan What I mean is that I listen to different viewpoints from Theravadan Buddhist monks. I don't take too much notice of doctrines outside Buddhism. I have done my enquiry and have proven to myself conclusively that Buddhism is the only doctrine on this planet that is complete, well expounded, consistent and leads to release. However, within Buddhism there are a number of paths that can lead to liberation and that is why I listen to different points of view. It is up to the individual to find a path that is suitable for their temperament. KH: In the useful posts file, under "Dry Insight," there is one post from Nina (12371) and two from Robert K (30793 and 30799). I think they will answer your questions. --Evan The references and quotes in these posts agree with what has been said. The Buddha admitted that there are dry insight meditators and arahants but I do not recall a sutta in which he instructed Bukkhus to practice in this way. There are however numerous suttas in which the Buddha instructs a bhikkhu to sit at the foot of a tree or in a hut in seclusion and develop the jhanas 1, 2, 3 etc. The last reference listed refers to post-canonical Pali literature - that's fine but one must be a little more careful with such texts. KH: No, it doesn't work that way. Every moment of right understanding has virtue, concentration and wisdom. (To be more specific; it has the cetasikas, adosa, samadhi and panna and sometimes virati.) That is the way the Eightfold Path is developed - all the factors together, not as eight individual steps. --Evan That is true but without virtue it would be very difficult to develop concentration and without virtue and concentration it would be impossible to develop wisdom. I may not have expressed the concept too well initially but when I said that each supports the other I did not mean that they are to be developed independently. KH: That is the version of insight meditation you will see everywhere except in the original texts. In fact, meditation (mental development, bhavana) is a momentary phenomenon (just like everything else that is absolutely real). In a moment of consciousness at any one of the six door, panna and sati arise to experience an object. At the intellectual level the object is an idea (e.g., some part of the Buddha's teaching) and at the practice level (satipatthana) the object is a nama or a rupa. In either case, insight meditation is a moment of conditioned reality; it is not a formal procedure of sitting quietly and/or concentrating. It can happen at any time, provided the right conditions have been accumulated. There must be no belief in control over conditioned dhammas: that would contradict everything the Buddha taught. Ken H --Evan I'm not sure why you say that this kind of insight meditation is not in the texts or is not the same as what you have described. First of all, all phenomena are momentary (assuming that the deathless state is not a phenomenon). I don't know whether the noticing of momentary phenomena is momentary on dependence of the phenomena being noticed - which I think is what you are implying. Mindfulness (sati) arises on dependence of being able to arouse the energy of the mind - as long as one can do that one can sustain ones mindfulness. A mind thus "empowered" can then examine phenomena. You mention the sense doors. The mindful examination of the sense doors would result in the noticing of the bare sensation of what arises at the door, its sustaining and its fall. Wisdom (panna) arises from this examining process. So I would have thought that sati "experiences" the phenomena and panna arises from that experience. How is this different to noticing anything else such as thoughts in the mind? How is sitting quietly noticing mind processes different to any other experience that sati notices? At this point I would like to state that I think our positions are very close and that we can recognise that Buddhism provides a number of paths to the deathless and it is up to each to find the most suitable path and follow it. Kind Regards, Evan 44317 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > Thanks for the information but Transcendental Meditation isn't > Vipassana. No, of course, it's not. But from what I've read, TM sounds very much like jhana meditation (which many Buddhists also practice). To what degree studies of one form of meditation are generalizable to other forms is an interesting question. Based on anecdotal evidence (including posts I've read on this list) I think that many of the results are generalizable to vipassana. But, of course, we would need specific studies of long-term vipassana meditators to prove that hypothesis. Matthew 44318 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Matthew: No, of course, it's not. But from what I've read, TM sounds very much like jhana meditation (which many Buddhists also practice). Matthew, TM is not jhana meditation. Kind Regards, Evan 44319 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Matthew: Umm, insects (and homo sapiens) *are* animals. They are members of the kingdom Animalia. Matthew, These beings are grouped together with humans because of the scientific system of categorisation (the ancient Greeks have a lot to answer for here). There are many instances along the history of science in which the categories are incorrect and have since been corrected and in which animals/plants have been incorrectly categorised. One must not consider science as a static object. It changes and grows constantly (it is after all a human construct and as such a conditioned thing). The reason why humans are grouped with animals is because on the physical level (rupa) we are the same - we have gross physical manifestations. However, the classification system does not take into account the mind and its characteristics nor is there a scientific instrument that can measure these impirically (another word derived from the Greek - this is getting annoying). Kind Regards, Evan 44320 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Evan (and Matthew & James) - In a message dated 4/12/05 7:59:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > > Matthew: > No, of course, it's not. But from what I've read, TM sounds very much > like > jhana meditation (which many Buddhists also practice). > > > Matthew, > > TM is not jhana meditation. > > Kind Regards, > > Evan ======================== Actually, Evan, it *is* a samatha-bhavana form of meditation. Keith Brasington, the well known jhana teacher who was a student of Ayya Khema, personally told me that for jhana bhavana a TM manta (Skt "mantra") is just fine to use. Also, he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the 2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice years ago. So, in my opinion, the statement "TM is not jhana meditation" is incorrect. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44321 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Howard, I stand corrected. A manta can be used as an object just as the breath can. Sorry if I upset anyone. Kind Regards, Evan Hi, Evan (and Matthew & James) - In a message dated 4/12/05 7:59:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > > Matthew: > No, of course, it's not. But from what I've read, TM sounds very much > like > jhana meditation (which many Buddhists also practice). > > > Matthew, > > TM is not jhana meditation. > > Kind Regards, > > Evan ======================== Actually, Evan, it *is* a samatha-bhavana form of meditation. Keith Brasington, the well known jhana teacher who was a student of Ayya Khema, personally told me that for jhana bhavana a TM manta (Skt "mantra") is just fine to use. Also, he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the 2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice years ago. So, in my opinion, the statement "TM is not jhana meditation" is incorrect. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44322 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, As sayadaws would say conventionally there's two things: a person's jobs and dhamma's job. A person job is to live a moral life by developing mental strength to be able to live in accordance with their wisdom. Dhamma's job is to give material things, happy existences and ultimately liberation. The person cannot control the results, he can only control the actions he takes and certainly should. There are 4 possiblies: akusala object->akusala action, akusala object->kusala action, kusala object->kusala action, kusala object- >akusala action. Obviously there's not much to do for for people who have akusala action regardless of object. Most people tend to be akusala->akusala and kusala->kusala. So the first step is to come up with agreeable objects to have kusala, that's samatha. Or if someone is able to maintain kusala regardless of object they can start vipassana directly. - kel > > I think it's pretty clear what is meant and what should be done. > > Only remaining question to me is whether or not someone can do it. > ... > S: What do you think? Can anyone do anything? 44323 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:36pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Howard: > he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the > 2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice > years ago. So, in my opinion, the statement "TM is not > jhana meditation" is incorrect. Howard, did you get a chance to look at the German study of TM? Here's the link again: http://www.trancenet.org/research/chap1.shtml I'm curious to know if you have any remarks about the results of this study, as someone who has practiced TM in the past. Matthew 44324 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear Azita and Nina - A: I think your quote from the Theragatha is a wonderful reminder. I will write it in my diary, so I can read it often and hopefully, be a condition for me not to be heedless. N: yes, wonderful verse, thanks. T: Indeed, maranassati should be reflected often because death may come at any time. If such reflection results in a realization that there still are some akusala dhammas within us, then we "should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities" [AN XI.20, Maranassati Sutta]. Dear Nina, There are two important points in your previous message (# 43905) that I would like to ask you to kindly continue discussing them. 1) N: The Co to the Mahaanidaana Sutta (transl by B.B.), 2) N: I heard this morning on MP 3 some reminders about lobha. Because I think we should realize the lobha right now before there can be perception of the undesirability of all fabrications. T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on hard- to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. If you have not discussed this sutta in details elsewhere, would you like to discuss it with me (in a series of messages)? But if a detailed discussion already exists, can you give me their DSG message numbers, or its Web link ? Concerning 'lobha', I understand that the 20 sakkaya-ditthis are fabrications (sankhara khandha); fabrications also may arise because of craving, according to the following sutta. "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents". [SN XXII.81, Parileyyaka Sutta] Now, in order that "there can be perception of the undesirability of all fabrications", you say we should "realize the lobha". Is this lobha same as "craving" above, and how do we realize it in this sutta context? Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita and Tep, > yes, wonderful verse, thanks. > Nina. > op 12-04-2005 12:24 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > > Furthermore, according to Theragatha VI.13 : > >> > >> "Make the day not-in-vain, a little or a lot. > >> However much the day passes, that's how much less is life. > >> Your last day approaches. This isn't your time to be heedless". > >> 44325 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan: > There are many instances along the history of science in which > the categories are incorrect and have since been corrected and in which > animals/plants have been incorrectly categorised. One must not consider > science as a static object. It changes and grows constantly (it is after > all a human construct and as such a conditioned thing). It is true that a few marginal organisms have been re-classified from, say, the kingdom Plantae to kingdom Protista. But homo sapiens' position within the kingdom Animalia is fairly secure and supported by overwhelming evidence. Evan: > The reason why humans are grouped with animals is because on > the physical level (rupa) we are the same - we have gross physical > manifestations. However, the classification system does not take into > account the mind and its characteristics Both Evan and James have asserted that the difference between homo sapiens and "animals" is the mind. But if we look at our closest primate relatives, we can see that they have minds as well -- they have consciousness, cognition, emotions, memory, learning and (rudimentary) language. They also have social conciousness, including senses of obligation, expectations, rules, and community concern. And as we examine further down the phylogenetic chain, we see a gradual emergence of the mental properties we call "mind" with the evolution of more complex brains. The difference between our "minds" and those of other animals is simply one of degrees. Matthew 44326 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Evan - In a message dated 4/12/05 8:21:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > > Howard, > > I stand corrected. A manta can be used as an object just as the breath can. > Sorry if I upset anyone. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I sure hope it takes more than THAT to upset anyone here! ;-)) No, of course no upset. I just wantd to set the record straight as I understand it. -------------------------------------- > > Kind Regards, > > Evan > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44327 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 4/12/05 8:40:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bupleurum@... writes: > Howard: > >he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the > >2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice > >years ago. So, in my opinion, the statement "TM is not > >jhana meditation" is incorrect. > > Howard, did you get a chance to look at the German study of TM? Here's the > link again: > > http://www.trancenet.org/research/chap1.shtml > > I'm curious to know if you have any remarks about the results of this > study, as someone who has practiced TM in the past. > > Matthew > ===================== I have skimmed through the article. I was never a TM "aficianado,"and I now nothing of the inner workings of the organization, though my impression is that it has much in common with a cult. I also do not know any details of the TM-Sidhi program, and I do not buy the "theory" behind the practice, as I am a Buddhist, not a Vedantin. As far as the basic mantra-meditation practice is concerned, it is a basic, simple, concentrative technique that can lead, I suspect, to all the jhanas and other "attainments" of a typical samatha practice. I stopped the TM practice when I became a Buddhist. (My reason wasn't a very "reasonable" one - I felt like a bit of a "traitor" in not practicing a more traditional Buddhist style of meditation such as anapanasati.) BTW, as regards to meditation leading to problems, I suspect that to the extent that one is "unstable," meditation may not be fully free of danger, because, at deeper levels, states and insights may arise that are unsettling and could have harmful effects. So, an initial level of reasonable mental and emotional stability, attainable in part by a strong and extended practice of sila, is rather important. However, it is also fair to say that the early stages of samatha meditation (through to access meditation) will actually aid in building the needed initial calm and will do no harm, and an ongoing mindfulness practice (during ordinary life) would also be a safe practice. So, it is important to go slowly at first and to avoid techniques that plunge one into states that one is unprepared to handle. My own experience is that the basic TM technique is rather safe. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44328 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina and Larry, Nina says: >> you ask your questions not for the sake of debating. It’s good that you recognize my interests have nothing to do with debating for the sake of debating. My concern is in learning Dhamma, but as I have been ‘led down the garden path’ before, I can’t bring myself to accept traditional interpretations without investigating myself. Returning to verse 604: >> ?604: > what is diversity of perceptions? The perception, perceiving, state >> of perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is >> possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of >> mano-viá¡¡.na-dhaatu).> We agree that 604 is referring to attaining the perception of the sphere of infinite space. >> perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is >> possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of >> mano-viá¡¡.na-dhaatu) >> The person who has *not* attained to jhana. Thus, the person who >> has attained does not experience sense objects. Here is the >>contrast that may help. I read this as follows: And so I conclude that this is stating that the yogi who has not yet attained formless jhana, but who nevertheless is attempting to do so, by not attending to diversity of peceptions, etc.. And so I would say that this whole statement is commentary on the standard sutta formula for ‘perception of the sphere of infinite space,’ and as such, sheds no light on form jhana. You continue: >> There are four planes of citta: sensuous plane (kaamaavacara), >>citta that experiences sense objects. Rupajhaana plane, arupajhaana >>plane, lokuttara plane. Only the first plane experiences sense >>objects. Now this is precisely getting to the question I asked last week when I restarted this thread. And the question is: Is there a direct one- to-one correlation between avacara and bhumi stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? The Patisambhidamagga seems careful to distinguish between the two. >> In the Path of Discrimination, p. 82, three planes of citta (not >>the unincluded, which is lokuttara) are combined with the planes of >>existence. But as to the material sphere plane (the fine material, >>or rupa-jhana) it is said:< included are those who have reached >>this in meditation, are abiding in comfort here and now, which >>ideas have their sphere here...>The Dhammasangani (Ch II and III0 >>and the Book of Analysis give paralel texts. Now I carefully studied p. 82 when I received the text a couple of weeks ago, and compared Ven. Nanamoli’s translation with the Pali, and in verses 397-401 the term avacara never occurs without bhumi, because this passage is of course talking about bhumis. And no doubt the statement in 399 about the is referring to one who has attained that bhumi by meditation as Ven. Nanamoli rightly adds in brackets, but everywhere else in the text where it refers to jhana as being rupavacara-dhamma, it never includes the term rupavacara-bhumi (to my knowledge anyway), but only states that jhana is kusala cause for rebirth there (see verse 406, p. 83 of same Katha). So although one *may* be able to attain rupavacara-bhumi through jhana, I don’t see the Patisambhidamagga stating that it is a necessary condition for the attainment of jhana that one does so. To the contary, the text repeatedly states that abandoning the hindrances is the only prerequisite for the attainment of the first jhana, and it never (to my knowledge) states that kama-chanda is a synonym for kamavacara-bhumi (I think I understand what you mentioned previously about the commentarial interpretation of withdrawal as stated in the Sutta Pitaka jhana formula as meaning withdrawal from all sensory form perception, but of course my quest here is for an explicit statement confirming this interpretation). And so my question is: Is there a direct one-to-one correlation between rupavacara and rupavacara-bhumi stated elsewhere in Abhidhamma Pitaka, which states that rupavacara only = rupavakara- bhumi? Is it stated that rupavacara-citta can’t experience sensory form? I look forward Nina, to any Abhidhamma Pitaka statements you can provide that would shed further light on this point. >> See: The Mahaaparinibbaana sutta, Pukhusa who could >> attain jhana and did not hear anything. I will definitely look at this Sutta before I talk with you again. Larry asks: >> If a sutta needs interpretation why not resort to the commentaries >> and people who have extensive first hand experience? But who to believe? I’m sure that you know as well as I that there are Ajahns who either explicitly or implicitly say that the commentarial tradition is off the mark. Personally, my reading of the Tipitaka at this present state of understanding is based on the conservative principle that the suttas mean precisely what they say. Until I am convinced otherwise by canonical evidence, this seems the prudent choice. Metta, Geoff 44329 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Geoff: "But who to believe?" Hi Geoff, Belief is unnecessary, just investigate. I don't quite understand what you are talking to Nina about but all jhanas can be attained by beings on the sensuous plane, though sensuous objects are not experienced in jhana. The kamma result of jhana practice is to be born into a fine-material or immaterial plane "as is said". This is a rough sketch. Htoo can provide extensive detail. At this time the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhammattha Sangaha are the primary sources for abhidhamma study. My impression is that the actual 7 volumes of the abhidhamma pitaka are rather primitive or elemental and won't tell you much without a commentary. Larry 44330 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, You were saying: ------------------------------ > However, within Buddhism there are a number of paths that can lead to liberation and that is why I listen to different points of view. It is up to the individual to find a path that is suitable for their temperament. > ------------------------------ As I see it, there is only one context in which several paths can be said to exist within the Dhamma. That is, there are four ways in which jhana is, or is not, practiced. It can be practised prior to vipassana, after vipassana, in conjunction with vipassana or not at all. Apart from that one technicality, the Path is essentially the same for everyone: The ultimate goal is Final Extinction of Suffering (parinibbana). The path leading to Final Extinction is the Eightfold Path of the Ariyans (supramundane insight). The path leading to the Eightfold Path is Satipatthana (mundane insight). And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma (intellectual understanding). --------------------- E: > The Buddha admitted that there are dry insight meditators and arahants but I do not recall a sutta in which he instructed Bhikkhus to practice in this way. There are however numerous suttas in which the Buddha instructs a bhikkhu to sit at the foot of a tree or in a hut in seclusion and develop the jhanas 1, 2, 3 etc. ---------------------- I think those particular instructions were directed at bhikkhus who included jhana in their practice. But the rest of the Pali Canon applies to everyone. Every description of the five khandhas is, basically, an instruction to practice satipatthana, and it is directed at all of us. ---------------------------------------- E: > without virtue it would be very difficult to develop concentration and without virtue and concentration it would be impossible to develop wisdom. I may not have expressed the concept too well initially but when I said that each supports the other I did not mean that they are to be developed independently. --------------------------------------- We agree that wisdom is always accompanied by virtue and concentration; however, I think you might be saying that the mind has to be put into a special state of [calm, concentrated] preparation before wisdom can arise. That is not the case. Wisdom can arise immediately after any moment of consciousness - including wholesome, mildly unwholesome and even, extremely unwholesome consciousness. That is how it becomes possible to know 'mind with lust as mind with lust' 'mind with hate as mind with hate' etc., as described in the Satipatthana sutta. -------------- E: > I'm not sure why you say that this kind of insight meditation is not in the texts or is not the same as what you have described. First of all, all phenomena are momentary (assuming that the deathless state is not a phenomenon). ---------------- (Nibbana it is classified as a mental phenomenon (nama). It has the characteristic of anatta but not of anicca or dukkha). I suspect that you are including concepts (e.g., thoughts and ideas) in your definition of phenomena. But concepts are neither mental nor physical phenomena, and they are not included in the five khandhas. Concepts are illusory - they lack inherent characteristics (e.g., anicca, dukkha and anatta) and so mindfulness of them does not qualify as satipatthana. This distinction is made perfectly clear in the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. It renders the notion of formalised (non- momentary) meditation paradoxical, because that kind of meditation can only know concepts. However, the paradox is overlooked by most, modern-day Buddhists. Ken H 44331 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:07pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 165- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (h) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Viriya is the “root of all attainments”, as we read in the definition by the Visuddhimagga. Right effort is an indriya , controlling faculty, which has to be developed together with the other indriyas for the attainment of jhåna and the attainment of enlightenment. As the Atthasåliní states, viriya is the indriya which “controls” or inhibits laziness. Laziness is an obstruction to jhåna and to enlightenment. Right effort can also be seen under the aspect of path-factor and as such it is called sammå-våyåma of the eightfold Path. Right effort has to accompany right understanding, sammå-diììhi, of the eightfold Path in order to be a path-factor. Right effort of the eightfold Path develops through mahå-satipaììhåna, the “four applications of mindfulness”. When there is mindfulness of the reality which appears at the present moment there is also right effort. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44332 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H gazita2002 Hello Ken H, thanx for the following. Another little gem for my daily diary. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Evan, > As I see it, there is only one context in which several paths can be > said to exist within the Dhamma. That is, there are four ways in > which jhana is, or is not, practiced. It can be practised prior to > vipassana, after vipassana, in conjunction with vipassana or not at > all. > > Apart from that one technicality, the Path is essentially the same > for everyone: > The ultimate goal is Final Extinction of Suffering (parinibbana). > The path leading to Final Extinction is the Eightfold Path of the > Ariyans (supramundane insight). > The path leading to the Eightfold Path is Satipatthana (mundane > insight). > And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise > discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma (intellectual > understanding). > > > Ken H Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 44333 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:26pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma rjkjp1 > > robertk: > > If we agree that the Buddha was the teacher and master of vipassana > > then by your understanding wouldn't vipassana be the last thing one > > would want to do? > =================================== Matthew: Not necessarily. But I do think that the potential dangers of > intensive meditation should not be taken lightly,>>>>>>> > For some people, such experiences might cause long-term psychological > problems. I have also read reports of psychotic episodes, > hallucinations, chronic headaches and other neurological problems > brought on or exacerbated by meditation. ========= Dear Matthew, I agree with your concerns about the results of meditation. However these cannot be the results of vipassana (according to my understanding) simply because vipassana by definition is insight, it could never come with akusala. Unfortunately these days what is referred to as 'vipassana' is often a pale imitation. But what I wanted to bring to your attention was your reference to the Buddha dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: > > Vipassana and other forms of meditation could be considered > introspective, biofeedback techniques to directly alter one's own > brain chemistry and turn off these areas. > > . A lifetime of tinkering with > one's own brain chemistry may cause some people to become withdrawn, > anti-social or even delusional. Arguably, the Buddha himself > suffered from delusions such as possessing omniscience and > superpowers, seeing all of his former "rebirths," visiting alternate > universes and meeting Devas. ===== You see if the Buddha was a great vipassana proponent, became calm and happy BUT was suffering from delusions and hallucinations then surely no one in his right mind would want to follow his path? It would seem the better at vipassana you got the more likely you would become seriously insane. Actually, I thought it was forthright of you to say this. Most Buddhists with a materialist worldview say that the Buddha was speaking allegorically when he mentioned rebirth and devas, or that he never said said such things but they were inserted by monks. They spend a lot of time disparaging the Tipitaka. RobertK 44334 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Hi Ken, At this point I will have to agree with what you say. I don't think at this point that there is significant difference in our views to warrant a reply from me on the points you have raised. Thank you for an interesting discussion. Kind Regards, Evan Hi Evan, Ken H 44335 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:37pm Subject: Attainments Evan_Stamatopou... I gather that from some of the discussions I have been having here that some do not believe that the attainments of practitioners and monks are as great as they were in the times of the Buddha. Although I would agree with that statement, I think it is to the extent of the diminishing of the attainments that I would probably not agree on. So, what I would be interested in knowing is what peoples' thoughts are on this topic - specifically: 1. Are there any monks in this time (in the past 100 years say) that have attained arahantship or any of the other supramundane attainments? 2. Are there any lay people who have attained to any of the fruits and knowledge of the path? 3. Are there any monks who easily attain jhana and/or insight knowledges? 4. Are there any lay people who easily attain jhana and/or insight knowledges? I look forward to the responses. Kind Regards, Evan 44336 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:11am Subject: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn Dear James, Nina, Jon and all In my last messages I contemplated about the 'Raft simile'. In fact DSG has been a raft for me. I leave it because it hardly moves, not because I'm 'on the other shore'. (Perhaps there is no shore, perhaps there are only islands.) Some of you asked me to continue my contributions: perhaps in some month if the moderators have changed the formulae of this DSG-forum in the direction of my proposals; but I think this will not be the case. Farewell, thanks and metta Joop 44337 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. sarahprocterabb... Hi Larry & Nina, > L: As for the role of vitakka and vicara in jhana I found this note in > > Vism. but the sutta notation doesn't conform; any idea where it comes > > from? > > > > Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing > > (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). > > Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa > > vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). .... S: I think you have the Nanamoli/Bodhi transl? MN117, (p936 in my copy). Somewhat misleadingly imho, samma sankappa is translated here as right intention. Intention here refers to vitakka cetasika. "14. 'And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path*: this is right intention that is noble....a factor of the path." S: note that the aspect of 'mental absorption' here only applies to the noble, i.e lokuttara path factor. As discussed before, as a result of nibbana being the object, there is appanaa (absorption) at such moments even for those who haven't previously attained any jhanas. *translator footnote: "In this definition, the factor of intention (sankappa) is identified with applied thought (vitakka), which is further specified as the factor responsible for absorption by fixing and directing the mind upon its object..." ... > N: Very good. PED gives for appanaa: fix, turn or direct the mind. > Co to Abh. Sangaha, T.A. p. 35: And, also the burning up comes here! > <.. and it is jhaana because of contemplating the object and burning up > (jhaapana) the enemies [i.e. the hindrances]. ... S: Good. I'm sure we'll keep coming across it. in one of RobK's recent quotes from the Dhp-A, there was a reference to vipassana 'burning up' defilements or something similar if I remember correctly. And jhaapana, jhaapeti and jhaayati are all closely related. The dict entries are rather limited. (I've also looked at the Childers dict). Jhaapana - the burning up, jhaapeti- to cause to be burnt and jhayati- contemplate and burn.... ..... <...> Metta, Sarah ======= 44338 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions sarahprocterabb... Dear Joop, Personally I've greatly appreciated your contributions and our discussions. I'm very sorry if you feel unable to participate further for whatever reasons - you have a lot to offer and share, even within the present DSG scope. You'll always be very welcome. Metta and best wishes for your journey in the meantime. Sarah ======== --- Joop wrote: > > > Dear James, Nina, Jon and all > > In my last messages I contemplated about the 'Raft simile'. > In fact DSG has been a raft for me. I leave it because it hardly > moves, not because I'm 'on the other shore'. (Perhaps there is no > shore, perhaps there are only islands.) <...> 44339 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (323) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala These last 2 bhumis are where 4th rupa jhana brahmas dwell. There is difference between sannasatta and vehapphala brahmas. Vehapphala brahmas are those who are reborn with rupavacara 5th rupavipaka patisandhi citta. That is they are reborn with this citta as rebirth consciousness because when in the last thought process that is in marana-asanna javana, they were in 5th rupakusala javanas. As soon as the last javana 5th rupakusala citta passes away, it is followed by cuti citta and then it is followed by 5th rupavipaka patisandhi citta. This is temporal linkage. Not a spatial. Who can come to vehapphala brahma bhumi? 1. manussa or human beings with 5th rupa jhana 2. catumaharajika deva with 5th rupa jhana 3. tavatimsa deva with 5th rupa jhana 4. yama deva with 5th rupa jhana 5. tusita deva with 5th rupa jhana 6. nimmanarati deva with 5th rupa jhana 7. paranimmitavassavati deva with 5th rupa jhana 8. brahmaparisajja brahma who attined 5th rupa jhana 9. brahmapurohita brahma who atained 5th rupa jhana 10.mahabramha who attained 5th rupa jhana 11.parittabhaa brahma who attained 5th rupa jhana 12.appamanaabhaa brahma who attined 5th rupa jhana 13.aabhassaraa brahma who attained 5th rupa jhana 14.parittasubhaa brahma who attined 5th rupa jhana 15.appamaanasubha brahma who attined 5th rupa jhana 16.subhakinhna brahma who attined 5ht rupa jhana 17.vehapphala brahma who are reborn in the same realm 18.asannisatta brahma who die at the end of their lifespan There are 3 groups, who cannot be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi. They are 1. 4 apaaya bhumis 2. 4 arupa brahma bhumi 3. 5 suddhavasa brahma bhumi ---- 13 bhumis beings cannot be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi 18 bhumis beings can be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi ---- 31 bhumis beings are constantly moving from one bhumi to one of 31 total bhumi at the end of their stay in current bhumi. Bodhisatta saw all these and this is the main immediate reason that rockets up to aasavakkhaya nana. When so called beings including Himself are seen as non-sense matter there is no more reason to stand on aasava dhamma and then aasava dhamma becomes 'khaya' or 'dry up'. Beings in 4 apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existence cannot be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi in their next life. Arupa brahmas cannot be reborn in rupa brahma bhumis as they do not practise or do not stay with rupa jhanas. 5 suddhavaasa brahmas are ariyas and they do parinibbana at the end of their lifespan. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44340 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:46am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 165- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (h) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom Right effort of the eightfold Path develops through mahå-satipaììhåna, the "four applications of mindfulness". When there is mindfulness of the reality which appears at the present moment there is also right effort. ***** > [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah ====== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your effort. It is right dose for those who have disease of unknowing-of-Dhamma. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Htoo Naing 44341 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread (324) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa These last 3 rupa brahma bhumis brahmas are reborn with 4th rupavipaka patisandhi citta. These 3 bhumis are called 3rd jhana bhumis because according to 4 step-jhana scale they are 3rd rupa jhana brahmas. Why are there 3 separate bhumis for these rupa brahma even though the citta is characterwise the same that is the same patisandhi citta called 'rupavacara 4th rupavipaka citta'? Because when they develop the 4th (3rd) jhana, there are 3 different level of jhana called 1.paniita (superior) 2.majjhima(middle) 3.hiina (inferior) This is the point why attained jhana has to be frequently exercised to become proficient. One developed jhana and did not practise. At another time he regain that jhana and at dying he developed that jhana. Such jhana will have the lowest power and will be reborn in the lowest of their corresponding jhana bhumi. Expert level proficiency will give rise to paniita jhana and will be reborn in the highest in the corresponding jhana bhumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44342 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread (325) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa The last 3 bhumis are called 3rd jhana bhumis. When beings in these 3 realms die, where do they go? They can go anywhere depending on their maturition except to 4 apaaya bhumis in their next life. If they become anagams, they will be reborn in one of 5 suddhavasa brahma bhumis. If they develop 5th (4th) jhana, they will be reborn in vehapphala bhumi and if they do effort not to arise sanna then will be reborn in asannasatta brahma bhumi with rupa-patisandhi. They can be reborn in the same realm if they maintain their jhana and if they loosen and fall to lower jhana, they they will be reborn in those corresponding realms. If they develop kaamaavacara cittas in their last thought process, they will be reborn in kaama bhumis with tihetuka patisandhi, or dvihetuka patisandhi, or ahetuka sugati- patisandhi. Where do they come from? 1. manussa bhumi or human beings who attained 3rd jhana 2. 6 deva bhumis deva beings who attained 3rd jhana 3. 1st jhana rupa bhumi beings who attined 3rd jhana 4. 2nd jhana rupa bhumi beings who attined 3rd jhana 5. 3rd jhana rupa bhumi of different 3rd jhana bhumi beings 6. 4th jhana rupa bhumi called vehaphhala Asannasatta brahmas cannot be reborn in 3rd jhana bhumis because they are 4th jhana rupa brahmas. 5 suddhavaasa brahmas do not come to any bhumi as they do parinibbana at their cuti. Arupa brahmas are not reborn in 3rd rupa jhana bhumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44343 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:21pm Subject: Perfect Purity...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Nine Efforts which should be Developed: 1: The effort to purify Morality. 2: The effort to purify Mentality. 3: The effort to purify View. 4: The effort to purify Escape from Doubt. 5: The effort to purify Knowledge & Vision of Way & non-Way. 6: The effort to purify Knowledge & Vision of Method. 7: The effort to purify Knowledge & Vision themselves 8: The effort to purify Understanding. 9: The effort to purify Release. Source: The Exhaustive Speeches of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 [iii 288] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44344 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Evan) - In a message dated 4/13/05 1:50:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > The ultimate goal is Final Extinction of Suffering (parinibbana). > The path leading to Final Extinction is the Eightfold Path of the > Ariyans (supramundane insight). > The path leading to the Eightfold Path is Satipatthana (mundane > insight). > And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise > discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma (intellectual > understanding). > ======================== I really think that you might consider that the last of the foregoing sentences is rather much of an overstatement and somewhat of a minor misstatement. As regards overstatement, the Buddha certainly taught many "ordinary" preparatory practices in addition to what you mention, including sila and guarding the senses with ongoing, vigilant mindfulness. He certainly taught, over 45 years, far more in terms of practice than to wisely listen, consider, and discuss. As regards minor misstatement, while I know from sutta stories that the Buddha considered wise discussion of the Dhamma to be proper and useful, I don't believe he ever described such discussions as constituting part of a preparatory "path leading to satipatthana." (One place, for example, where one might expect to find such a reference would be in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, but I don't believe there is any talk of discussions there.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44345 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff sunnaloka wrote: >Sorry for my denseness, but what reference given by Nina is the one >on which commentarial interpretation hangs its hat? > > It is the statement about being aloof (withdrawn) from sense pleasures (I think you allude to this in your latest post to Nina) >>I'd be interested to know the basis for the idea that the object of >>jhana citta is the actual visible object rather than an image of it >>(if that's what you're suggesting). >> >> > >At this point I'm just inquiring, and so am not asserting anything >specifically > I appreciate that you are not asserting anything at the moment, but I think you see the point as a significant one, and I'd like to ask what that significance is. Does it have a bearing on the development of insight, for example, as you see it? Jon 44346 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan Evan Stamatopoulos wrote (to KenH): > However the Nikayas mention the jhanas frequently. >The Buddha instructed his disciples to practice the jhanas frequently. >Even though the Buddha acknowledges the existence of dry insight >meditators and arahants, I don't recall in the suttas that he ever >instructed practicing in that way. Whenever he instructed his disciples >to practice it was starting off with the jhanas. This comment could >cause me a great deal of trouble but I will attempt to thwart that by >stating that my memory is the weak point here. If the Buddha did >otherwise, please give me the sutta reference and I will reread it. > > Well as you won't be surprised to hear, there's no single clear-cut statement in the suttas that clinches this argument. Certainly the Buddha often taught insight and jhana together, but the important question is whether he invariably did so, and the answer to that is clearly 'no'. There are countless instances in the suttas of people becoming enlightened without any reference to any prior attainment of jhana; for example, when listening to discourse on the khandhas, ayatanas or elements, or after receiving a 'progressive instruction' (aanupubbii-kathaa) from the Buddha. For an example of the latter, see M. 56 'To Upali' (p 477 of MLDB). >I was under the impression that it is more >difficult to be a dry insight meditator than one that comes to wisdom by >development of the jhanas. > I think this is commonly asserted or implied nowadays, but there is actually no basis for it in the suttas or commentaries, that I'm aware of. Indeed, the opposite may well be the case, since enlightenment with jhana as basis is in a sense a higher level of attainment than insight without jhana as basis. Jon 44347 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Evan (and Howard) I preferred your first answer ;-)). I think it's quite safe to say that TM is not samatha-bhavana, because although TM teaches concentration it does not teach the difference between kusala and (subtle) aksuala, and only with panna that knows this can samatha be developed. The development of concentration per se can lead to states that have an apparent similarity to developed samatha, but these states will be aksuala rather than kusala. Jon Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: >Howard, > >I stand corrected. A manta can be used as an object just as the breath can. Sorry if I upset anyone. > >Kind Regards, > >Evan > >Hi, Evan (and Matthew & James) - > >In a message dated 4/12/05 7:59:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > > >>Matthew, >> >>TM is not jhana meditation. >> >>Kind Regards, >> >>Evan >> >> >======================== > Actually, Evan, it *is* a samatha-bhavana form of meditation. Keith >Brasington, the well known jhana teacher who was a student of Ayya Khema, >personally told me that for jhana bhavana a TM manta (Skt "mantra") is just fine to >use. Also, he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the >2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice years ago. So, >in my opinion, the statement "TM is not jhana meditation" is incorrect. > >With metta, >Howard > > 44348 From: "agriosinski" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:30am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: > "Mind" is not something that just sprang into existence with humans. > We can see the gradual emergence of mental functions coinciding with > the gradual evolution of brain structure. As we move from simple > organisms up the phylogenic chain, we see more elaborate cognitive > functions emerging. The simplest brains merely control and > coordinate movement and body functions such as heartbeat, blood > pressure, fluid balance and body temperature. As the brain evolved in > complexity, and especially with the emergence of larger cortices in > mammals, we see the gradual emergence of "higher" functions like > cognition, emotion, memory, motor learning and other sorts of > learning. The difference between our minds and those of our nearest > animal relatives is only one of degrees. > > Matthew Hi Matthew, it seems to me you understand the mind as thinking behind or on top of sensory perceptions. You belive it is a result of brain cells electrical activity. Right? metta, Agrios 44349 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/13/05 9:22:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jsabbott@... writes: > Hi Evan (and Howard) > > I preferred your first answer ;-)). I think it's quite safe to say that > TM is not samatha-bhavana, because although TM teaches concentration it > does not teach the difference between kusala and (subtle) aksuala, and > only with panna that knows this can samatha be developed. > > The development of concentration per se can lead to states that have an > apparent similarity to developed samatha, but these states will be > aksuala rather than kusala. > > Jon > ======================= TM does nothing (IMO) other than provide a neutral meditation subject along with the standard instructions to gently return the attention to that subject whenever it is noticed that the mind has wandered. Such a practice will, if other appropriate conditions are in place, lead to the jhanas. Without needed supporting conditions it will not. There is really no "big deal" about TM at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44350 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Jon, You ask: >> I appreciate that you are not asserting anything at the moment, >>but I think you see the point as a significant one, and I'd like to >>ask what that significance is. Does it have a bearing on the >>development of insight, for example, as you see it? I will quote Ajahn Thanissaro as to why I’m inquiring about canonical confirmation regarding the commentarial definition of jhana as a state of ‘fixed samadhi’ devoid of sensory form perception which is replaced by the appearance of a mental countersign to be the object of jhana, and this object is not a paramattha dhamma because it apparently isn’t subject to momentary change (this is the commentarial definition of jhana as I presently understand it, if I’m wrong on this please correct me). In Wings to Awakening: Part III-F, Ajahn Thanissaro says: "Part of the controversy over this question [as to whether or not jhana is necessary for transcendent panna] may be explained by the fact that the commentarial literature defines jhana in terms that bear little resemblance to the canonical description. The Path of Purification -- the cornerstone of the commentarial system -- takes as its paradigm for meditation practice a method called kasina, in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. The image then gives rise to a countersign that is said to indicate the attainment of threshold concentration, a necessary prelude to jhana. The text then tries to fit all other meditation methods into the mold of kasina practice, so that they too give rise to countersigns, but even by its own admission, breath meditation does not fit well into the mold [....] As a result, the text states that only Buddhas and Buddhas' sons find the breath a congenial focal point for attaining jhana. None of these assertions have any support in the Canon. Although a practice called kasina is mentioned tangentially in some of the discourses, the only point where it is described in any detail (MN 121) makes no mention of staring at an object or gaining a countersign. If breath meditation were congenial only to Buddhas and their sons, there seems little reason for the Buddha to have taught it so frequently and to such a wide variety of people. If the arising of a countersign were essential to the attainment of jhana, one would expect it to be included in the steps of breath meditation and in the graphic analogies used to describe jhana, but it isn't. Some Theravadins insist that questioning the commentaries is a sign of disrespect for the tradition, but it seems to be a sign of greater disrespect for the Buddha -- or the compilers of the Canon -- to assume that he or they would have left out something absolutely essential to the practice. All of these points seem to indicate that what jhana means in the commentaries is something quite different from what it means in the Canon. Because of this difference we can say that the commentaries are right in viewing their type of jhana as unnecessary for Awakening, but Awakening cannot occur without the attainment of jhana in the canonical sense." Full text here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/3f.html And so this is why I’m looking for any canonical evidence that definitively supports the commentarial definition of jhana, because if there is no such definitive supporting evidence, then my inclination to adhere to the conservative principle of taking what is said in the suttas to mean precisely what it says, necessarily leads to a much different magga paradigm than what is presented in the commentarial literature. Geoff 44351 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Larry, L: sensuous objects are not experienced in jhana If by sensuous objects you mean the five sensory form objects: visible form, sound, odor, flavor, and tactual sensation, and not the five hindrances: impulsive sensual desire, aggression, agitation, laziness/sleepiness, and doubt, then I’m looking for a canonical Abhidhamma statement confirming this assertion. I’m aware that what you say is indeed the commentarial position -- but what is the definitive canonical basis for this understanding? As for why I’m inquiring, please refer to my previous post on this same thread addressed to Jon. Geoff 44352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. nilovg Hi James and Christine, op 11-04-2005 22:17 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > > I do not see how this would be possible. Was this your conclusion > or A. Sujin's? Because the words of Sariputta himself, recorded in > the Theragatha (995,996), state: > > "It was to another that the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma; to > the Dhamma-preaching I listened intently for my own good. And not in > vain, for freed from all defilements, I gained release." > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html#attain > > So, are you contenting that Sariputta was entering and exiting > jhana, fanning the Buddha, and listening intently to a dhamma > discourse, all at the same time? To me, this seems impossible. N: Yes, and also attaining arahatship with the highest distinction: the four discriminations. But all these were different cittas at different moments. My discussion with Kh. Sujin was many years ago. Now I tried to look up some texts. I have no access to the Co Dhammapada which gives a longer story. I read in my Thai co. to the Dighanakkha sutta at the end: It was uposatha day and many monks had met. Of these 1250 bhikkhus, all of them were arahats, and not sukkhavipassaka, dry insight workers, and with six abhiññas. In Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, (II, 159 or IV, 173) Sariputta explains that he, when ordained six months, grasped the four Discriminations. He was a jhanalabhi, he had developed jhana and attained arahatship with lokuttara jhanacittas. This is only possible if one has the masteries of the jhana stages: entering and emerging from jhana whenever and whereever one intends to. When emerging from jhana one develops insight of all dhammas that appear, also of the jhanacittas that have just fallen away. Entering jhana and emerging can be very rapidly. We should realize what mastery, vasii, means! While he was fanning the Buddha, he could in between enter and emerge from jhana and also develop insight while he listened, and attain arahatship. This shows us how extremely fast the different cittas arise and fall away. Listening and fanning, jhanacittas, cittas with insight, lokuttara cittas. It is amazing. Khemaka was preaching Dhamma and during that time he and the listeners attained enlightenment. You may wonder how all this is possible. When you are talking to someone at the corner of a busy street, you may at the same time heed the traffic passing by, think of what you are going to say, listen to the other person, and in between you may have many other thoughts, such as wanting to purchase vegetables at the super, or getting bored of the conversation. The cittas move on, so fast. Also, when talking and listening, insight can be developed. When the lips move there is hardness or motion, there is sound, thinking, hearing. It is helpful to understand this point, then there will not be obstructions for beginning to develop insight naturally, in our busy life. Also when you are teaching your class. Think of Sariputta fanning the Lord Buddha! We are not like Sariputta, but he is an example to us. I know that this is difficult but it can be done. If it was not possible the Buddha would not say so. Now I am at a sutta Phil and I like so much: It can be done. Nina. Nina. 44353 From: nina Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 151 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 151, Resolution. Intro: Adhimokkha, resolution, is among the six cetasikas which are the ³particulars², arising with cittas of the four jaatis, but not with every citta. In this context of the Visuddhimagga it assists, together with the other sobhana cetasikas, the mahaa-kusala citta that is accompanied by paññaa. As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 133) resolution is among the four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors (yevaapanaka). They are not expressively mentioned in the list of the Dhammasangani. The others are: wish-to-do (chanda), attention (manasikaara) and evenmindedness (tatramajjhattata). **** Text Vis.151: (xxix) The act of resolving [66] is 'resolution'. It has the characteristic of conviction. Tiika: Note 66. ' "The act of resolving" should be understood as the act of being convinced (sanni.t.thaana) about an object, not as trusting (pasaadana)' (Pm.489). N: The Tiika to Vis. par. 140, about confidence (saddhaa), explains lack of confidence that is akusala as faithlessness when there are occasions for confidence, and as wrong decision (micchaadhimutti). Whereas the opposite of faithlessness is decision, resolution that is pure. The Tiika states that this is not the same as adhimokkha, determination. In the context of saddhaa the term resolution (adhimutti) is used to describe the manifestation of faith or confidence in wholesomeness. The Tiika explains further about the difference between resolution and confidence. Resolution, adhimokkha, is decisiveness as to the object that is experienced; it is the absence of undecisiveness with regard to akusala kamma such as killing or kusala kamma such as generosity. But confidence, saddhaa, is resolution with regard to those dhammas that one should confide in. These are the Triple Gem, kamma and its fruit and the factors of streamwinning, beginning with association with a good friend. Text Vis.: Its function is not to grope. N: The Tiika explains that non-groping is the opposite of groping or wavering that is compared to a child¹s undecisive conduct which thinks, ³shall I do this or not?² When there is an opportunity for daana, there may be undecisiveness; one may not be sure whether one will be generous or not. Whereas, when there is wholesome adhimokkha, it is firmly convinced about the benefit of daana and it supports the accompanying dhammas to engage in generosity. Text Vis.: It is manifested as decisiveness. N: Resolution cannot arise together with moha-muulacitta accompanied by doubt. When one has doubts about the Buddha²s enlightenment and his teaching of Dhamma leading to enlightenment, one cannot practise what he taught. Text Vis.:Its proximate cause is a thing to be convinced about. N: Its proximate cause is a dhamma one should be convinced about. Since in this context resolution is a sobhana cetasika accompanying mahaa-kusala citta, its object can be daana, siila or mental development that includes samatha and vipassanaa. Those are dhammas fit to be convinced about. Text Vis.: It should be regarded as like a boundary-post owing to its immovableness with respect to the object. N: A boundary post was firmly set into the ground at the gates of a city to obstruct the entry of the enemy (T.A. p. 57). Conclusion: Determination performs its function together with the other sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence, sati and kusala chanda. We can have the firm and steadfast determination to listen to the Dhamma and develop satipa.t.thaana. If we only want to listen a few times our determination is not firm enough and we may vacillate and become disheartened because of our defilements. Resolution is a cetasika, a dhamma that arises when there are the appropriate conditions. When understanding sees the benefit of the development of the Path leading to the end of defilements, there can be the steadfast resolution to develop satipa.t.thaa.na together with all kinds of kusala. As we read, resolution should be regarded as a boundary-post that obstructs the entry of the enemy since it is immovable with respect to the object. One may be in difficult circumstances and suffer from sickness and pain, but these do not need to distract us from the development of paññaa. **** Nina. 44354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H nilovg Hi Evan, Meanwhile, if you like, you could read the paras of the Vis. that Larry posts, of Ch XIV. Nina. op 12-04-2005 07:40 schreef Evan Stamatopoulos op evan.stamatopoulos@...: > I will admit to not having read the Visuddhimagga as yet. I nearly > ordered it from Amazon yesterday but something stopped me. I will make > that purchase soon. 44355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. nilovg Dear Tep, op 13-04-2005 03:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@... > 1) N: The Co to the Mahaanidaana Sutta (transl by B.B.), linking perception of humans may be triple-rooted, double-rooted, or > rootless; therefore they are said to be "diverse in perception."> > T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on hard- > to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. If you > have not discussed this sutta in details elsewhere, would you like to > discuss it with me (in a series of messages)? But if a detailed > discussion already exists, can you give me their DSG message > numbers, or its Web link ? N: I also find it most difficult. B.B. has translated it with its co: The Great Discourse on Causation, BPS Sri Lanka, ISBN 955-24-0117-8. It was not discussed in DSG, but mentioned. The best would be to order this booklet. To read it and then some points could be lifted out. Heavy stuff! T: Concerning 'lobha', I understand that the 20 sakkaya-ditthis are > fabrications (sankhara khandha); fabrications also may arise because > of craving, according to the following sutta. > > "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who > has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their > Dhamma; .... [SN XXII.81, Parileyyaka Sutta] > > Now, in order that "there can be perception of the undesirability of all > fabrications", you say we should "realize the lobha". Is this lobha > same as "craving" above, and how do we realize it in this sutta context? There are many names for lobha cetasika, craving, clinging, adherence, used in different contexts. perception of the undesirability of all fabrications: detachment from all conditioned dhammas. Before this can be accomplished we have to know what these dhammas are, when they occur, what our attachment to them is, when it occurs. Detachment is not the beginning, but the end. I am not sure about fabrications, it may stand for sankhara dhammas in this case. Then it includes all conditioned dhammas, all khandhas. Nina. 44356 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 0:41pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Agrios: > it seems to me you understand the mind as thinking behind > or on top of sensory perceptions. > You belive it is a result of brain cells electrical activity. > Right? > Based on the abundance of available evidence, I think that what we call the "mind" is a general term for a number of subcapacities, all of which are emergent properties of neural activity in the brain. Here are a few previous posts in which I explained my position: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43546 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43557 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43868 Matthew -- "It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -- Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man (1871) 44357 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:14pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, Again I'm randomly dropping in on your conversation without having followed the thread very closely, and for that -- my appologies. You quote Darwin: > "It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so > positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by > science." > -- Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man (1871) Now I don't have the quote handy, but Einstein once said something to the effect that science will never prove nor disprove Transcendent Reality or God or Transcendent Consciousness (Vinnana Anidassana) or whatever you want to call it -- simply because it transcends the domain of science, and therefore can only be discerned by gnosis or panna or nana or whatever you want to call it. Many other 20th century physicists have made similar statements. Now you may very well assert that whatever transcends the domain of science is nothing more than a flight of fancy, and if that's your view so be it, but why close off possibilities which can never be definitively proven nor refuted by science? It just doesn't seem the most skillful option to me, and as I said way back on this thread, the Buddha considered all such argumentation to be ultimately meaningless. By the way, Einstein also said (I'm sure you probably know this one): "Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity." --Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman, Eds., "Albert Einstein: The Human Side," Princeton University Press, (1954) So do think Darwin's statement applies to Einstein? Geoff 44358 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:18pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Geoff: > Einstein once said something to > the effect that science will never prove nor disprove Transcendent > Reality or God or Transcendent Consciousness (Vinnana Anidassana) or > whatever you want to call it -- simply because it transcends the > domain of science... > Now you may very well assert that whatever transcends the domain of > science is nothing more than a flight of fancy, and if that's your > view so be it, but why close off possibilities which can never be > definitively proven nor refuted by science? I would suggest that if one asserts that anything can never be explained by science, then one is "closing off possibilities." The history of science is littered with supposedly "transcendent" realities for which scientific explanations were found. Matthew -- "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated... If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." -- Albert Einstein, quoted in "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Dukas & Hoffman 44359 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, How can science ever refute the possibility that consciousness transcends phsyical death, that would be mortal--ly impossible wouldn't it? And I'm not asserting anything about Einstein's religious leanings -- only stating what the old boy said. Geoff 44360 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:36pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear Nina - Thank you for replying to my mail. > T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on > hard-to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. > If you have not discussed this sutta in details elsewhere, > would you like to discuss it with me (in a series of messages)? N: B.B. has translated it with its co: The Great Discourse on Causation, BPS Sri Lanka, ISBN 955-24-0117-8.The best would be to order this booklet. To read it and then some points could be lifted out. Heavy stuff! T: I will get a copy of this book as you recommended and study it first. Although I already read the easy-to-find online version and the Thai version several times over a span of 10+ years, it might be better to discuss from the book you've recommended. > T: Now, in order that "there can be perception of the undesirability > of all fabrications", you say we should "realize the lobha". > Is this lobha same as "craving" above, and how do we realize it > in this sutta context? N: Perception of the undesirability of all fabrications: detachment from all conditioned dhammas. Before this can be accomplished we have to know what these dhammas are, when they occur, what our attachment to them is, when it occurs. Detachment is not the beginning, but the end. T: Your simple explanation tells me that I might have made it too difficult. What you described is the basic problem-solving procedure: know problem definition and how it happens; know what causes the problem; know what solutions are possible; then select the best solution and implement it to solve the problem. N: I am not sure about fabrications, it may stand for sankhara dhammas in this case. Then it includes all conditioned dhammas, all khandhas. T: Aren't sankhara dhammas (formations or fabrications, depending on who the translator is) different from sankhata dhammas (all conditioned dhammas)? <'They formed the formed, Bhikkhus, that's why they are called formations'> Kindest regards, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 13-04-2005 03:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m... > 44361 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Jon wrote: Well as you won't be surprised to hear, there's no single clear-cut statement in the suttas that clinches this argument. Certainly the Buddha often taught insight and jhana together, but the important question is whether he invariably did so, and the answer to that is clearly 'no'. There are countless instances in the suttas of people becoming enlightened without any reference to any prior attainment of jhana; for example, when listening to discourse on the khandhas, ayatanas or elements, or after receiving a 'progressive instruction' (aanupubbii-kathaa) from the Buddha. For an example of the latter, see M. 56 'To Upali' (p 477 of MLDB). ________________________________________________________________ Jon, Agreed. There are many instances where the Buddha does this. Only a Buddha has the ability to know the minds of other beings so well that he can do this. Sariputta in fact attained stream entry after 2 lines of a 4 line stanza given by a Buddhist monk! Considering that there are no suttas in which the Buddha instructs bikkhus or lay people to practice the path of dry insight, why is there so much emphasis on it these days and not so much on the jhanas? Kind Regards, Evan 44362 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Hello, Not really being focussed on the thread here, but noted quite a bit going on about jhana. I wanted to add that there are suttas that state that it is possible to experience something from a lower jhana in a higher jhana (sukha in the fourth jhana for example) simply because the jhana is not well developed and established. This was stated in reference to Ven.Moggallana in his jhana training. It might be that a very superficial jhanic state might even allow walking (though I think it is highly unlikely) and sense impressions (much more likely). The depth of development and mastery of a jhana influences a great degree to how close to the sutta description the jhana manifests. metta Matheesha 44363 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Jon, The reason I recanted is that there are many objects that can be used as a kasina for practice which leads to the jhanas. The Buddha taught meditation on the breath as the most important but he also taught the use of earth, water etc as kasinas. I don't think he taught the use of a manta but I could see that is could be used. Kind Regards, Evan _________________________________________________________________ Hi Evan (and Howard) I preferred your first answer ;-)). I think it's quite safe to say that TM is not samatha-bhavana, because although TM teaches concentration it does not teach the difference between kusala and (subtle) aksuala, and only with panna that knows this can samatha be developed. The development of concentration per se can lead to states that have an apparent similarity to developed samatha, but these states will be aksuala rather than kusala. Jon 44364 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Hi Geoff, I see where you're coming from re. B. Thanisaro's views on Vism. jhana analysis. I agree that much of the detail in Vism. is not in sutta and probably not in abhidhamma pitaka either. But that is no reason to throw it out. I think Vism. conforms with the intention of sutta statements on jhana in terms of minimizing experiential in-put for the purpose of maximizing tranquility. It also seems to me that anapanasati is not said to be jhana or lead to jhana in the suttas (I could be wrong about this?). I interpret this to mean that anapanasati is samatha/vipassana bhavana. I experimented with breath as an object for jhana and found that it worked best for me to just use the idea of air. But that was very much 'beginner's dabbling'. I wasn't so much concerned with developing a mental image as in just developing tranquility. Perhaps we could say there is a difference in difficulty in using breath as an object of jhana and in using it as an object of samatha/vipassana (aka satipatthana). Larry 44365 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for this on MN 117,14. I saw the page referenced as M.iii,73 but didn't catch the note on vitakka as intention. I still don't see where this (below) paragraph comes from. Is it somehow a different translation of MN 117,14 beginning with "The thinking, thought, intention, ..." or possibly a different version of MN that the Vism. commentator (Dhammapaala) was working with? B. ~Naa.namoli translated both. Larry Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). Vism.117,14. 'And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path*: this is right intention that is noble....a factor of the path." 44366 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Hi Geoff, One more thought on breath as object of jhana. It seems to me that kasina meditation as described in Vism. is very similar to mandala meditation in that the object is basic, general, and profound. With that in mind perhaps breath could be idealized as the essence of life or prana. Then possibly any sort of symbol of life would suffice as a sign of breath, a flower for example. Just a thought. Larry 44367 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Evan) - > > KH:. . . > > And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise > > discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma (intellectual > > understanding). > > > ======================== H: > I really think that you might consider that the last of the foregoing sentences is rather much of an overstatement and somewhat of a minor misstatement. As regards overstatement, the Buddha certainly taught any "ordinary" preparatory practices in addition to what you mention, including sila -------------------------- Howard, how is sila practised? Past sila will condition more sila, but what other factors are involved? While waiting for your answer, I will give mine: conditions for sila are accumulated by knowing the meaning of sila. This is not easy - after all this time I still get confused over the simple definition. Sila is different from dana: it means actively not harming, whereas dana means actively helping. Secondly, sila is conditioned by knowing the difference between kusala and akusala dhammas, the benefits of the former and the dangers of the latter. Again, this is not easy: Sometimes, I have killed an injured insect or animal thinking I am not harming but helping, but actually, I lack proper understanding of conditioned dhammas. It's a mistake I am sure to make again and again. The actual actions (cetana) of harming and non-harming are anatta, and so they depend on conditions for their arising or non- arising. So, for example, there is no use in my swearing an oath, "I will always refrain from harming, and I will always be generous!" If the conditions for sila and dana have not been accumulated, those dhammas will not arise. So the path to sila is (as with dana and bhavana); wise listening, wise discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma. (End of story!) -------------------------------------- H: > guarding the senses with ongoing, vigilant mindfulness. -------------------------------------- How is guarding of the senses practised? To cut my long answer short: it is the same thing. It is not an easy practice to understand, and all too often, we think we have control over the senses. While we are thinking that, they are left unguarded. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ H: > He certainly taught, over 45 years, far more in terms of practice than to wisely listen, consider, and discuss. ------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but I didn't say they were the practice. The practice is satipatthana, and it required a lot of explaining from the Buddha and from kalyana-mittas. For those of us who still have dust in our eyes, the explanations go on. ------------ H: > As regards minor misstatement, while I know from sutta stories that the Buddha considered wise discussion of the Dhamma to be proper and useful, I don't believe he ever described such discussions as constituting part of a preparatory "path leading to satipatthana." (One place, for example, where one might expect to find such a reference would be in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, but I don't believe there is any talk of discussions there.) ------------- Well, you see it differently than I do. It is always important to know "what is Dhamma and what is not Dhamma." So we had better keep reading and considering, and discussing this very important issue. :-) Ken H 44368 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/13/05 11:41:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Ken (and Evan) - > > > > > > KH:. . . > >>And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise > >>discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma > (intellectual > >>understanding). > >> > >======================== > H: >I really think that you might consider that the last of the > foregoing sentences is rather much of an overstatement and somewhat > of a minor misstatement. > As regards overstatement, the Buddha certainly taught any "ordinary" > preparatory practices in addition to what you mention, including > sila > -------------------------- > > Howard, how is sila practised? Past sila will condition more sila, > but what other factors are involved? > > While waiting for your answer, I will give mine: conditions for > sila are accumulated by knowing the meaning of sila. This is not > easy - after all this time I still get confused over the > simple definition. Sila is different from dana: it means actively > not harming, whereas dana means actively helping. > > Secondly, sila is conditioned by knowing the difference between > kusala and akusala dhammas, the benefits of the former and the > dangers of the latter. Again, this is not easy: Sometimes, I have > killed an injured insect or animal thinking I am not harming but > helping, but actually, I lack proper understanding of conditioned > dhammas. It's a mistake I am sure to make again and again. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Sila is practiced in just the sdame way as you went about writing this post - you decided to do it, and then you did it. ------------------------------------ > > The actual actions (cetana) > ----------------------------------- Howard: Cetana is intention, not actions. Actions follow from cetana. ---------------------------------- of harming and non-harming are > > anatta, and so they depend on conditions for their arising or non- > arising. So, for example, there is no use in my swearing an oath, "I > will always refrain from harming, and I will always be generous!" > ---------------------------------- Howard: Definitely no use unless it is truly meant and there is the capacity to make good on it, but if it is meant and there is that capacity, the vow can be very useful. The Buddha was much in favor of vows - for example his teeth-gritting vow not to get up from his meditation under the bodhi tree until he ach ieved full enlightenment. ------------------------------------ If > > the conditions for sila and dana have not been accumulated, those > dhammas will not arise. ---------------------------------- Howard: So? Intending is among those conditions. ---------------------------------- > > So the path to sila is (as with dana and bhavana); wise > listening, wise discussion and wise consideration of the true > Dhamma. (End of story!) > ----------------------------------- Howard: Absolute nonsense - unproven, and merely claimed. These are *among* the conditions. --------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------- > H: >guarding the senses with ongoing, vigilant mindfulness. > -------------------------------------- > > How is guarding of the senses practised? ---------------------------------------- Howard: By intention to pay attention and cultivate kusala and eliminate akusala, and making good on that attention by means of consistent exertion of effort. ------------------------------------------ > > To cut my long answer short: it is the same thing. It is not an easy > practice to understand, and all too often, we think we have control > over the senses. While we are thinking that, they are left > unguarded. :-) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > H: >He certainly taught, over 45 years, far more in terms of > practice than to wisely listen, consider, and discuss. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, but I didn't say they were the practice. The practice is > satipatthana > -------------------------------------------- Howard: REALLY! That's it - that's the whole story? The Buddha could have stopped with just one sutta then! ------------------------------------------- , and it required a lot of explaining from the Buddha > > and from kalyana-mittas. For those of us who still have dust in our > eyes, the explanations go on. > > ------------ > H: >As regards minor misstatement, while I know from sutta stories > that the Buddha considered wise discussion of the Dhamma to be > proper and useful, I don't believe he ever described such > discussions as constituting part of a preparatory "path leading to > satipatthana." (One place, for example, where one might expect to > find such a reference would be in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, but > I don't believe there is any talk of discussions there.) > ------------- > > Well, you see it differently than I do. It is always important to > know "what is Dhamma and what is not Dhamma." So we had better keep > reading and considering, and discussing this very important issue. > :-) > --------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't say otherwise! Your reply is irrelevant to what I wrote. What I wrote was quite specific, and your reply is unrelated to it. But you are correct on one point: We do indeed see this (entire) matter quite differently. -------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44369 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: jhana and bodily movement. buddhatrue Hi Nina, Nina: Yes, and also attaining arahatship with the highest distinction: the four discriminations…In Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, (II, 159 or IV, 173) Sariputta explains that he, when ordained six months, grasped the four Discriminations. He was a jhanalabhi, he had developed jhana and attained arahatship with lokuttara jhanacittas. James: But Sariputta attained arahantship within two weeks "half a month"* of being ordained. To my understanding, he wasn't yet proficient at jhana at that time because he hadn't practiced previously. (Also, I don't readily agree that one can slip in and out of jhana so rapidly, even when proficient, but I will let that matter drop.) Metta, James * http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html#attain 44370 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:05am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 166- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (i) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Viriya is one of the factors of enlightenment, bojjhangas. The factors of enlightenment are: mindfulness (sati), investigation of the Dhamma (dhammavicaya, which is paññå),viriya, enthusiasm (píti), calm (passaddhi), concentration (samådhi) and equanimity (upekkhå). When the enlightenment factors have been developed they lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. The enlightenment factors reach completion through the development of mahå-satipaììhåna (1). *** 1) Kindred Sayings V, Mahå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on the Limbs of Wisdom, Chapter I, §6. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44371 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H christine_forsy... Hello Jon, Evan, all, I'm not sure if Bhikkhu Bodhi's article has been mentioned this time round? 'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas' Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Jon wrote: > > Well as you won't be surprised to hear, there's no single clear- cut > statement in the suttas that clinches this argument. Certainly the > Buddha often taught insight and jhana together, but the important > question is whether he invariably did so, and the answer to that is > clearly 'no'. There are countless instances in the suttas of people > becoming enlightened without any reference to any prior attainment of > jhana; for example, when listening to discourse on the khandhas, > ayatanas or elements, or after receiving a 'progressive instruction' > (aanupubbii-kathaa) from the Buddha. For an example of the latter, see > M. 56 'To Upali' (p 477 of MLDB). > > ________________________________________________________________ > > Jon, > > Agreed. There are many instances where the Buddha does this. Only a > Buddha has the ability to know the minds of other beings so well that he > can do this. Sariputta in fact attained stream entry after 2 lines of a > 4 line stanza given by a Buddhist monk! > > Considering that there are no suttas in which the Buddha instructs > bikkhus or lay people to practice the path of dry insight, why is there > so much emphasis on it these days and not so much on the jhanas? > > Kind Regards, > > Evan 44372 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:35am Subject: Musings7 - Patience & Vexation sarahprocterabb... Dear Nina, James, Azita, Chris & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) I mentioned that we also discussed more on aspects of patience, such as viriya (wholesome effort) and adosa (non-aversion), when we face difficulties. When we refer to the paramis, we refer to khanti parami (perfection of patience/endurance), but there is no khanti cetasika (mental factor). However the cetasikas viriya (effort) and adosa (non-aversion) are implied. If we try to pinpoint the different characteristics rather than being aware of what is appearing at any given moment, then there’s likely to be attachment again instead of detachment however. For an example of viriya as patience, the example was given of when we know people are speaking harshly about us. Can we continue to have metta and karuna? When there is metta and karuna at such times, viriya (effort )may appear as an aspect of patience, but adosa (non-aversion) is also there and it depends which characteristic is predominant in the 'package'. In the Dhammasangani under ‘Khanti duka’ (U Kyaw Khine transl, the aspect of endurance is included under forbearance (khanti): “What, in that connection, is forbearance? It is forbearance, being patient, endurance, not being truculent, being coherent in speech, being good-tempered. That is called forbearance.” *** Later when we spoke more about metta, it was stressed again how we can see the value of friendliness instead of dosa (aversion), moha(ignorance) or mana(conceit) anytime or in any place, such as in the supermarket, at work or on the bus. Even during dhamma discussions aversion or conceit, rather than metta, can sneak in anytime and so easily be ‘justified’ when there is no awareness. When we are concerned about others' conceits or wrong speech, we forget all about our own kilesa (defilements) at such times. The following quote includes further helfpul reminders. It's from an old letter of Nina’s on the same topic of developing patience, metta, energy/effort and equanimity in daily life when there are opportunities, such as when we receive blame: ">We need to develop the perfection of equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because of their own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or blame. When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the value of metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we will try to remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be compassion or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we remember that the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not a person but our own kamma. “We should carefully consider the different perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our daily life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that while she prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such as metta, patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does not feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they criticize her." < ***** On this topic of patience versus annoyance/vexation when we hear blame or others don’t behave as we'd like, I’m reminded of the ‘nine bases of vexation’ in the Vibhanga which reminds us again that the ‘vexation’ is only in the thinking with aversion about the situation. In fact, of course, only sound is ever heard and only visible object is ever seen: From Vibh, Analysis of Small Items, Ninefold Exposition: “Therein what are ‘nine bases of vexation’? ‘He has done me harm’, thus vexation arises; ‘He is doing me harm’, thus vexation arises; ‘He will do me harm’, thus vexation arises; ‘He has done harm to one dear and pleasant to me’, thus vexation arises;’He is doing harm to one dear and pleasant to me’, thus vexation arises; ‘He will do harm to one dear and pleasant to me’, thus vexation arises; ‘He has done good to one dear and not plesant to me’, thus vexation arises;’He is doing good to one dear and not plesant to me,, thus vexation arises;’He will do good to one dear and not plesant to me’, thus vexation arises. These are nine bases of vexation.” We also discussed more aspects of looking for quiet times for reflection and practice and feeling low or alone.(to be contd) Metta, Sarah =========== 44373 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (312) htootintnaing Dear Tep and interested members, Thanks tep for your questions, which are all interesting. You wrote: Dear Htoo and Friends, (changed words because this is DSG) I would like to make a few comments and questions about cittas. The purpose is to get your attention to certain issues that don't have clear explanation. If I am silent after seeing your response, please do not think that I don't like the answer. In general, I am silent whenever I feel that further discussion is not useful. But if nobody raise a question or express a concern, then the whole forum will be empty -- like an empty auditorium. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see your good intention.Actually I do not like busy message boards. Auditorium is always there even though new messages may or may not arise. In busy lists, I just check specific topics and read some interesting discussions. But most of the time I cannot read all messages. But in quiet lists, I feel it is cooler. As I said above there always is audience. This is right especially in the groups where I am a moderator. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 1. I understand that between 'rebirth consciousness' and 'life-ending consciousness' (cuti citta ) it is not empty. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. This is reality. Some may or may not accept. Those who do not accept have a strong view that both consciousness are one and only one and the whole life has only one consciousness or mind or spirit. Even such beliefs have 2 extremes. One is eternity belief. This consciousness or this spirit or this mind does not die but it changes its name to different names and this spirit or mind or consciousness or citta will once be transferred to another life with rebirth-consciousness. It never dies. Some believe (non-Buddhist) that this spirit needs purification and when purified it come to fuse with universal God Brahma and lives there forever. This is one extreme and this is a kind of wrong view or micchaaditthi called sassata ditthi. Another view is that there is a spirit or a mind or a consciousness or a citta and it works in the defined body of current life. It is the result of brain and associated physical things like blood, heart and so on. When the body dies, nothing left and nothing continue. There is no life after death and there is no kamma. This is uccheda ditthi and it is a wrong view that believes there is nothing after death except the stale body becomes rotten, putrified, dried and becomes dust finally. These are 2 exterme views and there are 2 major wrong views that almost always reside in most of people including Buddhists. A single word speaks. A single sign works. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: There are always some serial combinations of life-continuing consciousness (bhavanga cittas) and citta in procession (or vithi citta) until the life-ending citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Vithi cittas arise in series of 8 to 14 total cittas. The series with minimal cittas is manodvara vithi cittas. MJJJJJJJ M is manodvara avajjana citta or 'mind door adverting consciousness'. It is followed by 7 successive javana cittas or cittas of mental impulsion, which run very swiftly. The series with maximal cittas is pancadvara vithi cittas in 'ati- mahantarammana visaya pavatti'. There are altogether 14 vithi cittas. PCSTVJJJJJJJDD P is panca dvara avajjana citta or '5 door adverting consciousness'. C is cakkhu vinnana citta (for eye) or 'eye-sense-consciousness'. S is sampaticchana citta or 'receiving consciousness'. T is santirana citta or 'investigating consciousness'. V is votthapana citta or 'determining consciousness'. 7 J are javana cittas or 'mental impulsive consciousness'. 2 D are tadarammana cittas or 'retention consciousness'. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 7 + 2 = 14 vithi cittas These 14 cittas in pancadvara vithi vara or '5-door-processional- cittas-series' does take THE EXACT ORDER OF CITTAS and this is citta niyama. Above 8 cittas in manodvara vithi vara or 'mind-door-processional- cittas-series' does take THE EXACT ORDER OF CITTAS and this is citta niyama. There are different vithi varas and these have been explained. When there is no reason that vithi cittas have to arise, then there have to arise bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness indefinitely as there are still kamma that dictate them to arise. There is no exact combination of vithi cittas and bhavanga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: But what happens between 'the final thought process' (cuti citta) and rebirth consciousness (patisandhi citta)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The final thought process is not cuti citta. If I wrongly mentioned like that please correct me. The final thought process is 'marana-asanna-javana-cittas'. It is a procession of citta and it contains 5 javana cittas. So it is called 'procession of cittas' or 'vithi' and it is marana-asanna- javana vithi. But cuti citta is 'dying consciousness' or 'life-ending- consciousness' or 'life-ceasing-consciousness' or 'life-switching consciousness'. It should not be called 'death consciousness' as death cannot be consciousness. What I understand your question is 'What happen between cuti citta and next life patisandhi citta?' Patthana Dhamma says that it is anantara paccaya as long as cuti citta is not arahatta-cuti citta. Anantara is made up of 'ana' and 'antara'. Antara means 'interval' 'gap' 'space'. Ana means 'no' 'nothing' 'none'. So anantara means there is no intervening things (time, space, matter). So there is nothing in between these 2 cittas. This phenomenon was once preposed by U Han Tun of JourneyToNibbana group. He was viewing a painting at a gallery. He heard a very familiar voice of one of his friend. What he noticed was that at a time consciousness is at the painting and at another time consciousness is at the voice (sound). He noticed that those two phenomena were very very close and he told that cuti and next life patisandhi must be like that and he felt quite a shock. Even right now, there have been many many moments of consciousness and many thought processes have occurred. But there do have the idea of self or self-identity in us. Those who are believing that 'tomorrow I will do such and such, I will reply this and that messages, I will not reply the message of such people and so on' reveal that there is idea of self identity. What I have been trying is that a clear picture of Dhamma is printed in the mind and the mind itself experience the realities. Some people are constantly expressing 'impersonal' 'impersonal' 'impersonal'. But there are shades of personality-view among such people. If you ask me or if someone ask me I would not say anything whether I am clear of self-identity view or still not clear of self-identity view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Is it an emptiness or is it another kind of "phenomenon", if it is not a citta or a "being"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not emptiness. It is not another kind of phenomenon. There is no being at all from the beginning. Again 'a citta' or 'citta' is also a word and it is pannatti or concept even though the meaning it bears is reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 2. Do bhavanga cittas take objects (arammana)? Why or why not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bhavanga cittas do take object (arammana). Why? Because it is a kind of consciousness and it is conscious to its object. Why not? Bhavanga cittas cannot take other objects. The only object it takes is the object of the earlier bhavanga citta, which is the closest bhavanga citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: If they do not, then how can they be called consciousness? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If they do not --(if not current objects), then they cannot be called 'conscious mind's consciousness'. It is an alternative form of consciousness. It is consciousness. So it can be arousable. If it is unconscious then it will never be arousable. A bhavanga citta is shaken. But it was not shaken and passed away. Next bhavanga citta is shaken because of the former effect. Next bhavnga citta is also shaken but it is not called 'shaken life- continuing consciousness' or 'vibrating bhavanga citta' or 'bhavanga calana citta'. But it is called 'bhavaguppaccheda citta or 'arresting bhavanga cittta' or 'arresting life-continuum'. All bhavanga cittas are called consciousnss because they all are conscious to their respective object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 3. Please describe the process of bhavangha cittas : What conditions each bhavangha citta to arise or pass away? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no process of bhavanga cittas. Bhavanga cittas are called process-freed cittas or 'vithi mutta cittas'. They never have procession. There are many conditions that bhavanga cittas arise and pass away. They are life continuing consciousness. It is continuation of life. Life has to be continued because there are still life as dictated by kamma. The conditions are 1.absence of vithi citta 2.presence of kamma I hope Nina will add something more here. Rob M when he has time will also add here something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Kindest regards, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your wish. I do not bother whether my message boards are active or not. What I worry was for some who do have interest in Dhamma. That was why I requested you and U Han Tun to check and discuss Dhamma while I was away from JTN. Now I do not bother and do not worry. JTN message board may come to a halt or stop. But I want the message board clean. So I want to put the message board on moderation. I am soon going to open JTN to the general public like 'DSG' and 'triplegem'. There are many unmoderated members. If they want they will post and if they do not have a wish, they will do other things like posting in other groups or not posting at all. JTN is for helping 'how to attain Nibbana'. That is why it is given as 'Journey To Nibbana'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Apology to moderators for discussing some outside groups. 44374 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:18pm Subject: Emotional Immunity...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Unaffectable & Unreactive Equanimity (Upekkha): Seek this subtle and Stilled Unity within Equanimity, instead of the inevitable doubt inherent in ever perplexing conceptual proliferation! Equanimity is neither pleasurable nor painful, attracted nor repulsed, yet quite agreeable & enjoyable in full awareness of its presence. There is equanimity regarding internal states... There is equanimity regarding external conditions... There is equanimity regarding living beings... There is equanimity regarding inanimate phenomena... Let go of the merely historic never returning past. Relinquish dreams of all possible futures yet uncome. Be just clearly aware of & content in the real present. The elimination of both sensual desires & of discontent, the ejection of laziness, the calming of regrets, just this pure equanimity, being aware of all mental properties exactly at the moment they appear: That I call the direct knowledge of release; the breakthrough from ignorance. If Indifferent towards both: Internal states & external phenomena, Living beings & lifeless things, Past, present & future events, How can one be hurt, upset, disturbed or distressed ? Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the Tranquillity; So is the Equanimity; of one Released by Insight of Right Understanding... Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44375 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (326) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa The last 3 bhumis or realms are called 2nd jhana bhumis. Beings in these 3 realms are reborn with 2nd and 3rd rupavipaka cittas. There are 3 separate bhumis as there are 3 level of proficiency namely hiina or lesser, majjhima or middle, paniita or greater proficiency. The implications are the same as in the previous post. That is 'who can come to these 3 2nd jhana rupa brahma bhumis' and 'where do they go when they die in 2nd jhana bhumi'. There are 3 1st jhana rupa brahma bhumis. They are 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa Beings in these 3 1st jhana rupa brahma are reborn with 1st jhana rupavipaka patisandhi cittas. There are 3 separate realms as there are 3 separate level of proficiency namely hiina, majjhima, and paniita. The same applies to these 3 realms as in case of 2nd jhana rupa brahma bhumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44376 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (327) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa After that there left 11 kaama bhumi or 11 planes of sensuous sphere. These 11 realms are where beings enjoy sensuous pleasure and they have sensuous things that is sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and thought related to them. 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm These 6 realms are called deva bhumis. These are named according to their implication. Catumahaarajika = catu + mahaa + raja + ika It means 'where 4 great kings live'. But this realm has many many deva beings and there are not just only these 4 great kings. These 4 kings are 1. Dhattarattha 2. Viruuhlaka 3. Viruupakkha 4. Kuvera These are just names and when they should die, there will arise another deva king in place of them. These 4 kings have to attend the General Deva meeting at Tavatimsaa deva realm, where the meeting point or meeting hall exists. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44378 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:04am Subject: Dhamma Thread (328) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm 'Catumahaarajika deva bhumi' has been explained in the previous post. Taavatimsaa is made up of 'ta' and 'timsa'. Ta means 'three' and timsa means 'thirty'. So taavatimsaa means '33'. When Bodhisatta 'Maagha', who lived in the village Maagha was a leader of wholesome actions, he led the team of 32 to do good things like digging up well for drinking water for the whole village, laying out good travelling path, road etc, laying bridges where needed and many other things. When they all died in human realm, they all were reborn in their next life as deva beings in that realm. That is why the name was given like that. The name of this realm may change after many Buddhas. Tavatimsa is the meeting point for all deva beings. Deva beings in the lower realm that is catumaharajika deva beings can go to tavatimsa deva realm. But catumaharajika deva and tavatimsa deva cannot go up to Yaamaa deva realm. They don't even have a power to look up without consent of higher deva beings. Yaamaa deva beings are higher in position as compared to lower deva realms. This is because they do have higher maahaakusala power in their past. Tusita deva beings are higher than Yaamaa deva beings. Tusita deva realm is a place where Bodhisatta last dwelled just before he was reborn in Manussa Bhumis as a human being to become a Sammasambuddha. Nimmanarati = nimmana + rammati Nimmana means 'created ones' and rammati means 'enjoy'. These deva beings have the power to create the senses they want and enjoy those senses. They are more powerful than lower deva beings like tusitaa, yaamaa, taavatimsaa, and catumaharaajika deva beings. Paranimmitavassavati deva beings are the most powerful sensuous beings. They can occupy all the sensuous matters that are crated by nimmaanarati deva beings. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44379 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > > Based on the abundance of available evidence, I think that what we > call the "mind" is a general term for a number of subcapacities, all > of which are emergent properties of neural activity in the brain. > Here are a few previous posts in which I explained my position: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43546 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43557 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43868 > > Matthew > -- > "It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so > positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by > science." > -- Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man (1871) Hi Matthew. Thanks for taking time to link me to your texts on the subject. Just want to point out, this is not what we call the mind, this is what you call the mind.. at the moment. In other place you stated on consciousness which is much closer to what we call the mind: "These are really two different issues. The first is: is the mind the same as the brain? The second is, can the mind exist without the brain? A mind-body dualist may argue that "mind stuff" and "body stuff" are two different things (which I find improbable), but nevertheless the dualist would have to agree that all the evidence we have suggests that the mind cannot exist apart from the brain." Following the same kind of definition of mind, you now have "mind stuff" and necessarily "body stuff" as two interrelated. And of course question arises about this interrelation. But all of it: 1.definition of mind 2.definition of body 3.nature of interrelation 4.mind 5.body 6.mind-body interrelations. has changed in past countless times and will change in future. So one can spend time again and again reasserting his views in every emerging new situation, if one desires. Buddhist practice goes in different direction. metta, Agrios 44381 From: Matthew Miller Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Geoff: > How can science ever refute the possibility that consciousness > transcends phsyical death, that would be mortally impossible > wouldn't it? Actually, there are a number of ways in which the existence of consciousness independent of brain function could be confirmed. This includes the study of so-called Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) and Out-of-Body Experiences (OBEs). Indeed, these kinds of phenomena have been studied quite extensively. Another would be the investigation of cases of rebirth/reincarnation. Nearly all traditions that believe in life after death, including Buddhism, claim that recall of the details of former rebirths does occur. Prof Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia has devoted his life to the study of such cases. So far, none of this research has yielded any convincing evidence of consciousness transcending physical death. Here are two books which review the evidence (cited earlier): http://tinyurl.com/6qhht http://tinyurl.com/6byxd Combine the dearth of counter-evidence with the abundance of evidence from neuroscience that all mental functions are causally related to changes in brain physiology, as well as the evidence from evolutionary biology and comparative anatomy that the different subcapacities of the "mind" historically emerged within the phylogenetic chain following the evolution of more complex brain structures, and the theory which I have expounded seems most probable. Of course this could be revised with the arising of new evidence. Matthew 44382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. nilovg Dear Tep, op 13-04-2005 23:36 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > T: Aren't sankhara dhammas (formations or fabrications, depending > on who the translator is) different from sankhata dhammas (all > conditioned dhammas)? <'They formed the formed, Bhikkhus, that's > why they are called formations'> N: They refer to the same dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa, but there is a slight difference in meaning that is emphasized. Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that arise because of conditions. As Kh Sujin explained in "Survey to Paramattha Dhammas", people could misunderstand this and believe that the dhammas that arise because of conditions continue to exist. Hence the Buddha taught that sa.nkhaara dhammas are also sa.nkhaata dhammas, dhammas which have been conditioned (Thai: prung teng lew). Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must fall away. Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma which depends on other dhammas that condiiton its arisieing. Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from being condiitoned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. Nina. 44383 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 13-04-2005 20:17 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > Hi Larry, > > L: sensuous objects are not experienced in jhana > > If by sensuous objects you mean the five sensory form objects: > visible form, sound, odor, flavor, and tactual sensation, and not the > five hindrances: impulsive sensual desire, aggression, agitation, > laziness/sleepiness, and doubt, then I’m looking for a > canonical Abhidhamma statement confirming this assertion. N: I read the text you referred to, M.N. 77 and this referred to the eight deliverances in the Great Discourse on Causation, and Co. transl by B.B. Very difficult text, but before going into it, I think it may help to discuss a little more the aim of jhana. Do we realize to what extent we cling to sense objects? As soon as we see, we cling to visible object, but we do not notice it. This happens all the time, countless moments of clinging. After seeing there is the defining of the object, and this is usually done with clinging. We think about what was seen, heard, etc. When the citta is not intent on dana, sila or mental development, we think with akusala cittas. Most of the time we do not notice this. The aim of jhana is detachment from sense objects, although this is by way of temporal subduing of attachment. When there is no seeing, no hearing, there is not clinging to visible object, sound. What is the use of jhanacitta if one still experiences colour, sound and is thus immediately involved with clinging to them? There are outside Buddhism meditations that may lead to trance, but one should seriously question whether they lead to detachment. If this is not so, there is no genuine jhana. Some people may wish for extraordinary experiences, but that is not detachment. Now the difficult text of the Great Discourse on Causation. At the end is a text you also found difficult: . Vimokkha: release, freedom. How could that be real freedom, we can ask? Without the Co we cannot understand this very well. Except that in the sutta the word vimokkha is used, emancipation. So, it must be different from seeing right now, with all the clinging involved. The Co and subco helps me, but it may not help you, as I understand. Subco: He arouses jhana through the kasinas based on internal objects, such as hairs of the body (blue kasina). This is really complicated, but it clarifies that it is not ordinary seeing of visible object. As to more details on this practice, see Nyanatiloka Buddhist dictionary, under abhibhaayatana. One can take a large or small part of the body and use that as a kasina subject of meditation. I really do not know anything about this. I am not very interested in jhana, but I like to understand the suttas dealing with it. And I think that misunderstandings about jhana should be cleared up. I do not think I can be of much help with Abhidhamma texts about details of the jhana practice. It is as Larry says. In another post you spoke of bhumi. We have to differentiate bhumi as plane of existence: 31 planes. Bhumi as plane of citta: four planes. What plane a citta belongs to depends on the object that it experiences, that is all. Kaamavacaara citta experiences sense objects, different from the meditation subjects of jhanacitta, different from nibbana. What is the use of the citta plane which is ruupaavacaara if it is not different from kaamaavacara? It must be different. Nina. 44384 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Agrios: > [scientifc understanding of mind] has changed in past countless > times and will change in future. > So one can spend time again and again reasserting his views in > every emerging new situation, if one desires. The Buddha warned against speculative argumentation. This was a wise position for him to take since, in the Buddha's time, there was very little reliable scientific knowledge or technology to speak of. Therefore, most questions were purely in the realm of speculative opinion. Ancient India was steeped in impenetrable and unverifiable metaphysical philosophies and did not place strong value on the experimental method or critical thinking. We live in different times. Through careful observation, experiment and peer review we have patiently accumulated a vast body of scientifc knowledge undreamt of in the Buddha's time. I don't think that we should close ourselves off to the possibility that scientific understanding of the brain will always be irrelevant to dhamma practice. See my posts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43585 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43610 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43849 > Buddhist practice goes in different direction. Yes, practice does. But besides practice, many Buddhists are also immersed in ancient Indian metaphysical explanations of the world. Matthew 44385 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, M: "the theory which I have expounded seems most probable." But your theory never goes beyond the analysis of conditioned temporal phenomena (even NDE’s and OBE’s are conditioned temporal phenomena). That is, all of the disciplines and methodologies of ‘science’ necessarily cannot study in any purely objective manor, nontemporal unconditioned experience (i.e. transcendent consciousness) which is purely subjective (actually transcends all notions of subject/object duality) and as such transcends all temporal reification of ‘time’ (duration) and ‘space’ (location). How could science ever refute that which transcends all relative analysis and measurement? Geoff P.S. A related sidebar would be: How could science ever study what 'was/is' before the big bang? If science could ever discover the 'first cause' they may be able to settle all scores once and for all, but how would it be possible to discover what caused all conditioned phenomena by only being able to employ the instruments of conditioned phenomena (including mathematics, etc.)? P.S.S. What thinks you Matthew, does the immediate present have duration? Stated another way, do you 'believe' in 'time'? 44386 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my queries. My specific question relates precisely to this statement: N: "What plane a citta belongs to depends on the object that it experiences, that is all. Kaamavacaara citta experiences sense objects, different from the meditation subjects of jhanacitta...." Is this described in Abhidhamma Pitaka in any detail at all? Does it state that rupavacara cannot include sense objects? Does it list meditation subjects of jhanacitta? I know that this is probably a fairly pointless inquiry from your perspective, but I hope you can realize that it’s important to me. Metta, Geoff 44387 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:44am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Geoff: > Science cannot study nontemporal unconditioned experience > (i.e. transcendent consciousness) which is purely subjective > (actually transcends all notions of subject/object duality) and as > such transcends all temporal reification of time > (duration) and space (location). Brain studies have found that the kinds of experiences you are describing can be induced in subjects by stimulating areas of the brain. What you describe as a "nontemporal unconditioned experience" is exactly how subjects describe experiences that occur when the brain's orientation association areas are shut off, either through drugs or meditation or otherwise. Without input from the orientation centers, the boundary between the self and the world is lost. The experience that arises has been variously described as one of no-self, merging with infinite timeless space, transcendence, and so forth. I see no reason to assume that these experiences involve access to any kind of "higher reality." See my earlier posts for more details: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43610 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43849 Matthew 44388 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings7 - Patience & Vexation nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you. I just read this to Lodewijk at dinner yesterday. We are doing now the Vipassana letters. While I read, I find it a good way to be reminded. Nina. op 14-04-2005 11:35 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > ">We need to develop the perfection of equanimity in order to learn to > accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes of life. Praise and blame are > only realities which arise because of their own conditions, in reality > people are not the cause of praise or blame. When people do wrong to us we > can develop metta if we see the value of metta. Instead of having aversion > about people's bad points we will try to remember their good qualities. If > they have none there can be compassion or there can be equanimity. There > can be equanimity when we remember that the real cause of unpleasant > experiences through the senses is not a person but our own kamma. 44389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. nilovg Hi James, op 14-04-2005 07:06 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > James: But Sariputta attained arahantship within two weeks "half a > month"* of being ordained. To my understanding, he wasn't yet > proficient at jhana at that time because he hadn't practiced > previously. N: I have the wheel here as booklet. I do not know much about this. When he heard Assaji, only a few stanzas, he became a sotaapanna. But he had extraordinary talents. J:(Also, I don't readily agree that one can slip in and > out of jhana so rapidly, even when proficient, but I will let that > matter drop.) N: Another example is Moggallana, having the masteries of jhana. This can be read in the texts, about his iddhi powers. See Pali Proper Names, this is on line. Nina. 44390 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:40am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, M: I see no reason to assume that these experiences involve access to any kind of "higher reality." Based on your temporal analysis, I see no reason to assume they don’t. (And it's not 'higher reality,' which assumes a relative relationship to something that is 'lower.' I'm not asserting any relative position whatsoever when I use terms like unconditioned, nontemporal, deathless, etc.. That is, these terms as I use them are not the mere dualistic opposite of their relative counterparts -- unconditioned is not the opposite of conditioned, etc.) But you’re avoiding my query: Do you assert that the immediate present has temporal duration? Yes or no. Geoff 44391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 14-04-2005 17:03 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > N: "What plane a citta belongs to depends > on the object that it experiences, that is all. Kaamavacaara citta > experiences sense objects, different from the meditation subjects of > jhanacitta...." > > Is this described in Abhidhamma Pitaka in any detail at all? Does it > state that rupavacara cannot include sense objects? Does it list > meditation subjects of jhanacitta? N: Dhammasangani 1019:Which are states that are limited (paritta)? All states [N;dhammas] good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to the universe of sense (kaamaavacara); in other words the five khandhas. N: Paritta (insignificant) denotes all kaamaavacaara dhammas. Dhsg 1020: Which are the states that are sublime (mahaggata)? States good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to the worlds of Form (rupaavacaara) and Formless (aruupaavacaara); [in other words] the four khandhas. N: Note: only the four namakhandhas, not rupa. Dsgn 1021: Which are the states that are infinite (appamaanaa)? The Paths that are the Unincluded, and the Fruits of the Paths, and unconditioned element. N: It goes on about which states have which objects. Dsgn 161: pathavikasina.m , the earth kasina is the subject of the jhanas. Thus, paritta is not mahaggata, they are definitely separated. Different objects. Nina. 44392 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:20pm Subject: Blind Monk- Howard buddhatrue Hi Howard and All, Sometime back we were having a discussion about the six sense bases and I mentioned a blind monk. At the time, I wasn't sure where the story had come from but I found it today when I began reading the Dhammapada. It is the background story for the first verse. Just thought I would share it (not trying to make a point or anything): "The Story of the Monk Cakkhupala (Verse 1): While residing at the Jetavana Monastery in Savatthi, the Buddha spoke this verse, with reference to Cakkhupala, a blind monk. On one occasion, Monk Cakkhupala came to pay homage to the Buddha at the Jetavana Monastery. One night, while pacing up and down in meditation, the monk accidentally stepped on some insects. In the morning, some monks visiting the monk found the dead insects. They thought ill of the monk and reported the matter to the Buddha. The Buddha asked them whether they had seen the monk killing the insects. When they answered in the negative, the Buddha said, "Just as you have not seen him killing, so also he had not seen those living insects. Besides, as the monk had already attained arahatship he could have no intention of killing, so he was innocent." On being asked why Cakkhupala was blind although he was an arahat, the Buddha told the following story: Cakkhupala was a physician in one of his past existences. Once, he had deliberately made a woman patient blind. That woman had promised to become his slave, together with her children, if her eyes were completely cured. Fearing that she and her children would have to become slaves, she lied to the physician. She told him that her eyes were getting worse when, in fact, they were perfectly cured. The physician knew she was deceiving him, so in revenge, he gave her another ointment, which made her totally blind. As a result of this evil deed the physician lost his eyesight many times in his later existences." http://buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm Metta, James Ps. Thanks for the compliment about my phrase-making in your past post. ;-) 44393 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Questions about nama and rupa lone_renunciant Hello there, While the satipatthana thread seems to be deadlocked, a few things come to mind, and, I will, as told, ask more questions about nama and rupa. If all things are impermanent, and arise and pass away, how, or why, is only one nama or rupa apparent at any given moment. Is it that more elements than one can arise simultaneously, but the mind can only have one object of consciousness at a time? If not, why couldn't we understand two rupa elements at once? Further, what is it that knows nama and rupa? Nama itself? Sati? Citta? It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? Responses would be appreciated. -a.l. 44394 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > op 14-04-2005 07:06 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > James: But Sariputta attained arahantship within two weeks "half a > > month"* of being ordained. To my understanding, he wasn't yet > > proficient at jhana at that time because he hadn't practiced > > previously. > N: I have the wheel here as booklet. I do not know much about this. When he > heard Assaji, only a few stanzas, he became a sotaapanna. But he had > extraordinary talents. Okay, thanks for the reply. If you have the time and the inclination, you can read the biography of Sariputta at this link: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html Metta, James 44395 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > Agrios: > > [scientifc understanding of mind] has changed in past countless > > times and will change in future. > > So one can spend time again and again reasserting his views in > > every emerging new situation, if one desires. > > The Buddha warned against speculative argumentation. This was a wise > position for him to take since, in the Buddha's time, there was very > little reliable scientific knowledge or technology to speak of. > Therefore, most questions were purely in the realm of speculative > opinion. [...] Matthew, Buddha explained many times why there is no point in dwelling on ever changing opinions of the kind you and many of us have. His explanations have nothing to do with the amount or kind of evidence supporting any of them. All of them lead to dukkha. And penicillin leeds to dukkha as well. :) metta, Agrios 44396 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Blind Monk- Howard upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 4/14/05 3:23:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard and All, > > Sometime back we were having a discussion about the six sense bases > and I mentioned a blind monk. At the time, I wasn't sure where the > story had come from but I found it today when I began reading the > Dhammapada. It is the background story for the first verse. Just > thought I would share it (not trying to make a point or anything): > > "The Story of the Monk Cakkhupala (Verse 1): > > While residing at the Jetavana Monastery in Savatthi, the Buddha > spoke this verse, with reference to Cakkhupala, a blind monk. > > On one occasion, Monk Cakkhupala came to pay homage to the Buddha at > the Jetavana Monastery. One night, while pacing up and down in > meditation, the monk accidentally stepped on some insects. In the > morning, some monks visiting the monk found the dead insects. They > thought ill of the monk and reported the matter to the Buddha. The > Buddha asked them whether they had seen the monk killing the > insects. When they answered in the negative, the Buddha said, "Just > as you have not seen him killing, so also he had not seen those > living insects. Besides, as the monk had already attained > arahatship he could have no intention of killing, so he was > innocent." > -------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I remember this sutta, and I recall when 1st reading it how I marvelled at the Buddha's eminent sanity, his brilliant good sense so ahead of his time. -------------------------------------- On being asked why Cakkhupala was blind although he was > > an arahat, the Buddha told the following story: > > Cakkhupala was a physician in one of his past existences. Once, he > had deliberately made a woman patient blind. That woman had > promised to become his slave, together with her children, if her > eyes were completely cured. Fearing that she and her children would > have to become slaves, she lied to the physician. She told him that > her eyes were getting worse when, in fact, they were perfectly > cured. The physician knew she was deceiving him, so in revenge, he > gave her another ointment, which made her totally blind. As a > result of this evil deed the physician lost his eyesight many times > in his later existences." > http://buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm --------------------------------------- Howard: Whether or not kamma actually works in such a (literal) way - and I don't presume not - this is a great moral lesson. --------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > Ps. Thanks for the compliment about my phrase-making in your past > post. ;-) > ---------------------------------- Howard: Oh, you're very welcome! :-) I calls 'em as I sees 'em!! ;-)) ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44397 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:11pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Geoff: > But you're avoiding my query: Do you assert that > the immediate present has temporal duration? Yes or no. Sorry, Geoff, but you've lost me. I'm not sure what you're asking about here. Such questions are way too abstract for my poor primate brain!! :(( Matthew 44398 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:24pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Agrios: > And penicillin leeds to dukkha as well. :) Well, bacterial endocarditis, meningitis, pneumonia, syphilis and septicemia lead to some pretty serious dukkha too. I'll take the dukkha of penicillin over those any day! Matthew 44399 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:33pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa bupleurum a.l.: > It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our > bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? Because the Lord Buddha said so! C'mon, Andrew, get with the program! Matthew