44600 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conceit and dosa ( was Re: Comparing ... Conceit) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Good to see you back in form! --- Philip wrote: > > Thanks for the comments and the vib passage, Sarah. > > There is an interesting discussion on one of the tapes about mana > (conceit) and dosa (aversion). I listen to the talks in a random > way and don't take notes, so I can't remember the details, but I > know it helped me realise (at the time) that conceit does not only > arise accompanied by lobha (ie attachment to self-image) but also > when there's dosa. .... S: Hmmm...:-/ .... >Our aversive reactions are also accompanied by > conceit. I think of the times I get irritated by someone who reacts > in a odd way because I'm a non-Japanese. There is aversion that is > accompanied by conceit. I think that's what I heard on the tape. But > when I think about it now, it would seem that the mana would only be > accompanying lobha. ... S: Right, just with lobha. Of course the lobha and dosa follow each other so quickly, so just as you say, there can be dosa when someone reacts like this, followed by conceit (his odd-way unlike mine), followed by more dosa.... ... >There is attachment to the way I think things > should be (everyone being nice to each other, and relaxed, despite > one's race) and pride about being that kind of racism free person.. ... S: Exactly. Even if it's true, the pride or mana is there. .... > And then the aversion that arises when someone behaves in a way > that is contrary to my expectations. But is there conceit with that > aversion, or only derived from the attachment to the self-image? ... S: Right, derived from clinging and finding oneself important which conditions the aversion when it's not as we'd like. .... > > I think I've learned that dosa never arises unless there is lobha > first. Ayya Khema said there are only two ways to respond - with > equanimity or greed. I think I have learned similar things in ADL. ... S: Best of all is with awareness of the present dhammas...mere passing elements, not self. Of course, any responses depend on the conditions at the time. .... > So although we assume aversion is the reaction, there is greed > (lobha) first...So it would seem to me that there is conceit with > the lobha, but I have trouble understanding it with the dosa... > > Do you remember the talk I'm referring to? ... S: Not sure - are you referring to the Burma tapes? Definitely not with dosa. ... > p.s A sidebar about the talks. You owe me a shirt, Sarah. One day > I was listening to a talk and you made a point about what we > experience is not what changes, it's just the understanding/delusion > that changes, or words to that effect. I stopped what I was doing to > ponder the point and forgot about the iron and burned a shirt! Also > got soundly scolded by Naomi who says I get spaced out too often! ... S: Hey Phil, I'm not responsible:-). Maybe like the bhikkhuni who burnt the curry, it'll be your way of becoming enlightened. I don't follow your summary of my point, but perhaps I was saying that the thinking/understanding/delusion and other paramattha dhammas change rather than what is conceptualised (??). Poor Naomi, but at least it wasn't her shirt. I hope her job goes well too. I completely relate to both your example of mana here and also when it comes to getting 'spaced out' doing ordinary chores. I'm pretty well banned from the kitchen and haven't driven a car or ironed for years as a result. Metta, Sarah ======= 44601 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conceit and dosa ( was Re: Comparing ... Conceit) sarahprocter... Hi Phil & All, --- sarah abbott wrote: > I completely relate to both your example of mana here and also when > it comes to getting 'spaced out' doing ordinary chores. ... S: It started with a little sympathy here and then quicly conceit again - 'I'm like you...' - true, but the banner is flying once more, definitely with lobha. Sneaks in all the time. So very common. Sarah 44602 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) jwromeijn Hallo Geoff (and goodbye) It's a pity but inevitable that you end your participation in DSG. I did the same some weeks ago and I now also stop reading in this forum: your messages were the last reason I did. I really don't understand why the two grand old ladies are so problem- denying (naive?) that they don't see why you stop, as so many other non-dogmatics did stop. It's not a problem that DSG is a Theravada- forum but they refuse to consider that the way the discussions in it are organized, can be changed. I had a first look at your site, much more Theravadan than the impression you gave. What interests me most, is how do you see the relation of the content of your side with the 'emptiness' of Madhyamaka (Nagarjuna) ? In your 'notes' you say you are not endorsing his "The life-process has no thing that distinguishes it from freedom. Freedom has no thing that distinguishes it from the life-process" (MMK XXV-19) But is that all that can be said of this great Buddhist, one of the few who can bridge the gap between Theravada and Mahayana? Cf what David Kalupahana said about this statement: "This statement of Nagarjuna has contributed to a major and wide- spread asertion regarding the uniqueness of Mahayana-philosophy, namely, the ultimate identity of samsara and nirvana. This assertion may appear to be correct, if we are to ignore all that has been said by Nagarjuna regarding the metaphysical doctrines of identity and difference, especially in the chapters dealing with the tathagata (XXII) and the four truths (XXIV). Those who upheld the view that this statement is a assertion of the identity of samsara and nirvana do not seem to have paused one moment to reflect on the question regarding the nature of the identity they were implying; nor have they attempted to place that conception of identity (if there is one) in the historical context." (The Philosophy of the Middle Way, page 366) Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi everyone at DSG, > > I’m going to say goodbye for now as I don’t find that > what is generally being discussed here resonates with me on any > level, and I’m just not very interested in critical refutation > and debate. If the Theravadin commentarial path paradigm works for > anyone, that is great -- who am I to criticize. It’s just not > my upaya --that’s all. I firmly believe that the path is > functional and not rigidly fundamentalist. Thanks for answering my > Abhidhamma Pitaka questions. May you all be well. > > With omnidirectional metta, > > Geoff > > P.S. If anyone’s interested they can check out my > (?heterodox?) interpretation of the Pali Sutta Pitaka at my site: > > http://emptyuniverse.tripod.com/ > > You can also e-mail me through the contact page of the emptyuniverse > site. 44603 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Sarah, Jon, Chris, Phil, and others) - I truly appreciate your response to my earlier remark : > T: The commentarial suggestion that the namarupa-parichedda-nana > can be achieved by "studying the texts under revered teachers, > listening to explanations of their meaning, questioning about knotty > points and retaining in mind their meaning" is misleading. It invites the > reader to think that intellectual understanding (somewhat similar to the > same understanding obtained in a classroom) is enough to cause this vipassana-nana to arise. N: Yes, I often hear the words; is this all we have to do? There is detachment, alobha, with each kusala citta and thus also with the development of pannaa. This can help us not to cling to an idea of: I want result soon for myself, or, I want to be a wise person. Are such ideas not in the way? T: Not exactly. We should ask "is this all we have to do?" with kusala cetana to improve our practice (training, sikkha) to perfection. It is not necessary that we be motivated by the desire "I want result for myself "; we can practice and increase the effort in order to penetrate the 4 Noble Truth without attaching to "me, mine, myself", because we know that clinging to the pancakkhandha is dukkha. The following sutta quote encourages such intention with strong effort to "fathom the Teacher's dispensation": "For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, the Teacher's Dispensation is nourishing and refreshing. For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, it is proper that he conduct himself thus: `Willingly, let only my skin, sinews and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up on my body, but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, manly energy, and manly persistence.' For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, one of two fruits may be expected: either final knowledge here and now or, if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." Majjhima Nikaya 70:27 (Kitagiri Sutta) I think there will be no trouble such as 'lobha' and attachment to ' self ' as long as we look at the practice, along with the evaluation of the training for improvement, simply as a Dhamma learning process- it is just a dhamma - without thinking 'I want result soon for my self '. The right practice is to let go of self and all defilements along the way, while having a clear sense of direction in the background -- this sense of direction toward the goal (fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation) will never ever interfere with our advancement. This way we will be reducing lobha, dosa and moha every day while we are advancing more rapidly toward the goal! Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Thank you for reviewing messages. > your remark touches on very important points concerning the practice. Yes, I find what you say inspiring, inviting to consider more! I like the quoted text, it is useful. > This text clearly shows the conditions for intellectual understanding to > grow and develop into direct understanding, occurring at the first stage of vipassana ñaa.na. > Listening, questioning, until we really understand what dhamma is: the > reality appearing right now, such as seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. > We begin to realize how deluded we are and that is already some progress. We should first know what we do not know. > We only know the names of seeing, visible object, sati, paññaa. But by means of conversations we begin to see that citta, cetasika and rupa are not theoretical notions. They occur, they are real. > What we hear needs time to sink in, and if we do not try to make a result occur soon, we do not obstruct the arising of sati of a nama or rupa. sometimes, not often. 44604 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:11am Subject: Conceit and dosa ( was Re: Comparing ... Conceit) philofillet Hi Sarah > > I completely relate to both your example of mana here and also when > > it comes to getting 'spaced out' doing ordinary chores. > ... > S: It started with a little sympathy here and then quicly conceit again - > 'I'm like you...' - true, but the banner is flying once more, definitely > with lobha. Sneaks in all the time. So very common. Interesting. Even "I can relate to that" is a form of mana. That reminds me of something else that interested me on the tapes. You bring up a comment/question that Christine had about feeling that when all is seen as nama and rupa, something seems missing from life - the spice, the stories. We might come to be seen as dry or spiceless from people who are still going full throttle on conventional truths. I will bring that up at some point because I ahve some thoughts on it, but in the meantime I can see that we have to be comfortable with having a lot of mana if we maintain friendships in the world. All that relating, and commiserating, and encouraging in conventional terms. We can't get away from it unless we want to cut ourselves off from people, which is not an option most of us will choose. So we carry on with the non-harmful forms of lobha and mana without fretting about them but gradually getting to know them better. As for mana and dosa, the next time that tape comes around I will take note of just what is said. I know you and Jon are involved, and I know there is talk of dosa and mana, but I guess I misunderstood the context. I don't know if it was in Bangkok or in Burma. Ken was kind enough to write the location and date on the cassettes but I don't take note. Metta, Phil 44605 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:16am Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah (Mike, Nina and others) - S: As I indicated, I was really grateful for your detailed feedback, > beautifully presented and with very pertinent sutta quotes . > Very good and subtle points for further discussion. S: ... most the Musings refer to questions I or others > raised recently (often reflecting my own uncertainties > or wrong views following on from controversial topics here:-)). T: I am honored by the praise from an exceptional quality Dhamma researcher and Moderator like you, Sarah. But I am afraid that some points I made might already have been discussed by other DSG authors. I must admit that at the rate of 200+ messages per week, it is not possible for me to keep up with everything here. On a second thought, I think your defense of the "controversial topics" (and the excellent remarks you made in Musings9) make me wondering if, perhaps, my previous remarks should be reexamined! S: >Knowing different dhammas just as they are ...again, I don't > agree that `we have to be noble disciples first'. There are > stages of insight as we've discussed before and even now > there can be a beginning to know the characteristics > of dhammas just as they are. T: It was my ambiguous sentence, `we have to be noble disciples first' , that caused confusion here. I agree with you (and Nina) about the development stages of insight -- I did not (and do not) deny that fact. I only meant that the samma-ditthi, according to DN 9, does not belong to us right now because we are not Stream-winners yet. Therefore, the sakkaya-ditthis are unavoidable while we are practicing the Eightfold path. No matter how often you remind yourself that only the viriya that is accompanied by right view ("it is a conditioned dhamma, not self") is the right effort, your viriya still is not the right effort. Why? Because right now you still cannot abandon sakkaya-ditthi. So "we have to be noble disciples first" before our views are the right view. S: >Thank you again for all your help - I'm sure the silent > majority here will have appreciated your feedback a lot too, > so courteously presented as Mike said. Hope I can learn from it:-). T: I am honored as a member of this exceptional group. Concerning my feedback, it is like the Texas' Spring weather - i.e. good for 2 days and not so good for the next 3 days. I hope to get more helps in terms of comments and criticism from you all in order to become more reliable. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, (Mike & Nina) > > I'm very glad to see you're having further discussions with Mike and Nina. 44606 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:20am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue Hi Phil, I'm going to combine both of your posts into one response. I hope it isn't too long: Phil: I think there's a lack of diplomacy at times that cuts right to the chase. You lay out broadly-drawn prognosises (sp?)of people's ways of studying or discussing Dhamma, often lacking in generosity but at the same time containing some truth that is helpful to reflect on. James: Okay. Well, that is the Zen and the psychic influences of my personality. I can see certain things about people and I will often confront them with this information in a shocking way. I purposefully try to be shocking, as is done in Zen, or my point/purpose could be lost. There are pluses and minuses to this approach, but it seems to be a part of my personality. It comes out every time I interact with people (on or off the Internet). Some people appreciate this approach and some don't- I have close friends and ambivalent enemies. As Jon wrote about me once, "It's just James being James" ;-)). Phil: You compared me once to a friendly puppy seeking approval and affection and you were bang on. I could perhaps compare you to some other kind of dog but I will stop that train of thought right here! James: As I recall you did compare me to a type of dog at the time: A HOUND OF HELL!! ;-)) Phil: First of all, I think you would agree that there is no real need for us to continue discussing the pros and cons of Kh Sujin's approach James: Actually, in this group there is a real need to discuss her approach because it has a strong influence on the thinking of several members. However, unfortunately, such a discussion is usually not very effective because she isn't a member of this group to discuss her approach herself. I can listen to her tapes, and comment on those (as I have done) but still she isn't here to clarify any points I might make. It is like discussing a phantom. Phil: Thanks again for your post, and good luck with your move. James: Thanks Phil: By any chance will you be able to see the sphinx as you take a pee? James: LOL! No, the sphinx is actually a lot smaller than it looks in photographs. You can't see it unless you are right at it. I won't be able to see the pyramids either, I won't be close enough. But I will be living right beside the Nile. Phil: But I do enjoying exchanging ideas with you and as I've said before you often say things that stick with me and make me think about things from a different angle. James: Thank you; I enjoy our conversations as well. Phil: She doesn't engage in speculation. Sometimes it can be very abrupt and a bit offputting, to tell the truth, to hear someone's tentative question, about fear and pain at the moment of death, for example, put aside with a quick call for a return to present realities. James: This can be an effective technique- for the right person at the right time. Sometimes people need to have their questions answered in a direct manner; sometimes it is important to shock the person back to what is important- craving and clinging at the six sense doors. If K. Sujin has the right balance of instructional techniques, I cannot say. But, and this is very important, don't let her make you second-guess yourself: If it looks like B.S. and it smells like B.S., then it probably is B.S., no matter how many people tell you it isn't. Phil: I think I'm just letting go of stories far momre often, because of these small reminders from Dhamma friends. James: That is great; that is the power of mindfulness. However, unfortunately, without a more purposeful practice, you probably won't advance very far. You will be continually slipping back into suffering and ignorance. Now you are on a high, but it probably won't last very long. Phil: I know the Buddha told people to be self-reliant, but if he knew Westerners were going to be in his audience he might have worded it differently! James: This is pure conjecture which isn't very helpful. Remember, as worldlings we are all suffering from ignorance; it is as if we have a mental disorder. We are not qualified to say what the Buddha should have said or what he would have said today. We delude ourselves with such thoughts. We need to stick specifically to what the Buddha taught and to know that he knew his teachings would last thousands of years- and yet he didn't qualify them. What applied to the Buddha's time applies to our time, or the Buddha would have said differently. Trust the Buddha's words! The Buddhadhamma is our refuge. Phil: We in the west are conditioned from childhood to carve out remarkable lives, to be individualistic, to be independent, to be self-reliant. I think we are prone to have very strong self-identities, much stronger, in general, than Asians. James: This is a matter of perspective. From my perspective, Asians tend to have a self-identification based on group membership, but it is still a strong self-identification. Phil: I know you've heard this a thousand times before, but I really think it's true - when we seek techniques and expect results from them we are operating in a deluded belief that there is a self that can control cittas - and this is contrary to the teaching that makes the Buddha unique, the teaching of anatta. James: I would be quite willing to accept this perspective if, and only if, the Buddha taught this. Quote to me where the Buddha taught this and you will have a convert! As for myself, I don't find the Buddha teaching this at all!! Am I stupid? Did I miss it? I find the Buddha teaching over and over about concentrated effort to develop the mind with him giving specific and general instructions. The Satipatthana Sutta is a very long "How To" discourse on mindfulness- including techniques and tips (it even includes a timetable of expected results). To view the Satipatthana Sutta as simply descriptive of saintly monks and not prescriptive for anyone wishing to practice mindfulness, as some in this group do, lacks common sense. Phil: If you could write anything that would inspire me towards a more intentional approach towards developing mindfulness, I would be glad to hear of it. James: Phil, what can I say? You have been reading all of those writings from Nina, K. Sujin, and listening to those tapes over and over again, what could I say to reverse all of that conditioning? In essence, you have been brainwashed- but you did it to yourself. All I can tell you to do is to try and see the big picture: The philosophy of K. Sujin and her followers runs contrary to 2,500 years of Buddhist practice- practice based on specific and purposeful acts of dana, mindfulness, meditation, and renunciation. The teaching of K. Sujin runs contrary to the purpose and philosophy of the Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni Sangha. When you buy into this philosophy, you are not becoming a self-reliant Buddhist with the dhamma as your guide; you are becoming a cult member with the vision of a Thai worldling as your guide. As Howard writes, the teaching of K. Sujin is "idiosyncratic"; I would go even farther: it is downright dangerous! For your own sake, abandon it before it is too late! (I know this response is blunt and may turn you off, but, as you accurately comment earlier, I don't do `diplomacy' ;-)) Metta, James 44607 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) onco111 Dear Tep, I see that you clipped off the part of my post that was either uncomfortable or incomprehensible to you but is really the key. That's fine. But now I have a question. You write: > T: They are instructions to the worldlings. Instructions for doing what? Arousing Right Effort? And what, in your opinion, distinguishes Right Effort from Wrong Effort? Dan 44608 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:50am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) buddhistmedi... Dear Dan - Thank you for not ignoring the one-line comment <"They are instructions to the worldlings".> D: I see that you clipped off the part of my post that was either uncomfortable or incomprehensible to you but is really the key. T: There is another possibility, Dan. I was not interested in the clipped- off part < "Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these things are done, these things result." In the first case, there is a sense of "I must do; I am doing"--moha; in the latter case, there is a sense of "These results arose from these conditions"-- amoha. "Shoulds" are dangerous traps.> D: Instructions for doing what? Arousing Right Effort? And what, in your opinion, distinguishes Right Effort from Wrong Effort? T: Instructions for mind training (citta-sikkha), i.e. for achieving purification of consciousness. No, not for arousing right effort; it is for enhancing concentration(samadhi). Right effort is a path factor; wrong effort is not. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear Tep, > I see that you clipped off the part of my post that was either > uncomfortable or incomprehensible to you but is really the key. That's > fine. But now I have a question. You write: > > > T: They are instructions to the worldlings. > > Instructions for doing what? Arousing Right Effort? And what, in your > opinion, distinguishes Right Effort from Wrong Effort? > > Dan 44609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention nilovg Dear Tep, I also find this quote important. This morning I heard on my MP3 that Kh sujin was stressing this again. She said: Characteristics is often stressed. We do not have to think immediately of the three general characteristics. Each dhamma that appears has its own characteristic, and it can be known by that characteristic. Lobha has its own characteristic, it is different from dosa. Perhaps we could discuss more about characteristics. She also said: When one studies Pali one may often stare at words, but one should understand the meaning, penetrate more the true meaning of dhammas. That conditions awareness of dhammas, and in that way sati-sampajañña of satipatthana develops. op 20-04-2005 02:35 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > It's not just a matter of understanding `the word' or the definitions, but > rather the meaning of what is implied in order for satipatthana to > develop right now. 44610 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. nilovg Dear Tep, No need to step aside. As Htoo says, this is a forum and we all can butt in. Nina op 20-04-2005 01:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > Nina, I understand that your message was directed to Mike and Kel, so > it should be more appropriate for me to step aside until Mike and Kel > have responded. 44611 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) nilovg Hi Phil, What a lovely letter you wrote to James, full of good thoughts as reminders. I just select a few points. op 20-04-2005 04:02 schreef Philip op philco777@...: ... I do enjoying exchanging > ideas with you and as I've said before you often say things that > stick with me and make me think about things from a different angle. ------------------------------ N: Yes, true. James' remarks or Geoff's or Howard's or someone else's remarks make us think about things from a different angle. That is why I appreciate them, even though I do not agree with everything they say. ----------------- Ph: ... She doesn't engage in speculation. Sometimes it can be very abrupt and a bit > offputting, to tell the truth, to hear someone's tentative question, about fear and pain at the moment of death, for example, put aside with a quick call for a return to present realities. What some have called a "cold shower", maybe. ------------------ N:this expresses it very well. We are reminded: this is only thinking, and it can hit hard! It is the truth and helps us to see the difference between thinking of concepts we are so engaged with and knowing what is really there: fleeting dhammas that do not stay. Suddenly we come to understand the futility of all thinking and speculating. Yes, it makes us have less fear. But difficult to always apply. I have my story: getting old, life passing so fast. ------------- Ph: It is wrong to expect to lay down fresh tracks in the > short run. But all the reminders accumulate, with a conditioning > power that depends on our capacity to be mindful of them and the > depth of the intellectual understanding that accompanies our > reflection on them. --------------- N: Well expressed, Phil. This we can verify ourselves. ------------ Ph: I sit here and maybe speculate about how James will respond to this, whether he will be bored or irritated or maybe approve or what. And then a moment of awareness, it is all > nama and rupa. I let go of stories about Phil, about James, there is freedom from stories. -------------- N: That is how awareness helps to let go off stories. It does lead to more equanimity. James wrote a long time ago that he saw the benefit of equanimity. We are now at equanimity with Larry in the Visuddhimagga thread. I am reflecting on it. It views the object with impartiality, no deficiency, no excess. Then one is not caught up in worry and fear. Nina. 44612 From: nina Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: conditions for right awareness. nilovg Hi Tep, Phil and all, We have been discussing about the right conditions for direct awareness and understanding. It is a point people always wonder about. Is it only listening? Tep quoted a text about asking questions, as one of the conditions. Tonight I read to Lodewijk for our dinner reading from Letters about Vipassana (Ch 7, on Rob K's web) I found very appropriate. -------------------- ---------------- I talked with Phil about stories we cling to. I quote more: Nina 44613 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:01pm Subject: Re: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Thank you for the kind thought -- I guess you hope that it will benefit me to gain deeper understanding of the characteristics of the realities "when they appear" (which is beyond the verbal meanings), and that understanding is a support of satipatthana. It is nice to be reminded that besides the tilakkhana, there are other nama-rupa characteristics that should be clearly known. N: When one studies Pali one may often stare at words, but one should understand the meaning, penetrate more the true meaning of dhammas. That conditions awareness of dhammas, and in that way sati-sampajanna of satipatthana develops. T: Indeed I do feel that I am able to comprehend nama-rupa more today than yesterday. Every word you wrote above seems to "penetrate" my consciousness deeper. Is the fully developed understanding of the nama-rupa characteristics, excluding the tilakkhana, known as naama-ruupa-pariccheda-naana? Oh, I have another question. In the Thai suttas there is one common word that appears very often, it is "kamnod-roo". Have you seen it too? Does it mean sati-sampajanna, or anupassana, or what else? I think the literal meaning of kamnod-roo is "focusing to know". In the Thai version of MN 149 it says that the Bhikkhu must "kamnod-roo" the five clinging aggregates with great(abhi) wisdom(panna), he must abandon avijja and tanha with great wisdom, he must develop samatha-vipassana with great wisdom, and he must penetrate vijja and vimutti with great wisdom. The Thai translators use a lot of Pali words that are disguised in the Thai alphabets. But the Pali word for 'kamnod-roo' is not shown ! Thanissaro Bhikkhu translated kamnod- roo as "comprehend", and abhi-panna as "direct knowledge". But I feel the deep meaning is missing. N: Perhaps we could discuss more about characteristics. T: Please do that and I will be delighted. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > I also find this quote important. > This morning I heard on my MP3 that Kh sujin was stressing this again. > She said: chue), but understanding the characteristics that appear.> > Characteristics is often stressed. We do not have to think immediately of > the three general characteristics. Each dhamma that appears has its own > characteristic, and it can be known by that characteristic. Lobha has its > own characteristic, it is different from dosa. > Perhaps we could discuss more about characteristics. > 44614 From: "mnease" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 / Mike's Requested Citations mlnease Hi Tep, Great citations, thanks--I am pressed for time now but will respond to this and your earlier reply ASAP--thanks for your patience. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:20 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 / Mike's Requested Citations > There are several more suttas about Sotapatti that I have found at > AccessToInsight.com. Below is my selection from the larger set of > suttas translated by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > 1. AN V.25 Anugghita Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-025.html > > 2. AN X.92 Vera Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html > > 3. MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002-tb0.html > > "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of > stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the > cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three > fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at > precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be > abandoned by seeing". > > Tep's remark: here we see how appropiate attention > (yonisomanasikara) to the 4 Noble Truths can eradicate the lower > three fetters. It is amazing! > > 4. AN V.179 Gihi Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05- > 179.html#anatha > > 5. AN VII.51 Avyakata Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-051.html > > 6. SN LV.30 Licchavi Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-030.html > > 7. SN LV.1 Raja Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-001.html > > 8. SN XXV Okkanta-samyutta, Khandha Vagga (group of suttas) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Okkan > ta > > Mike, I am not sure this is the kind of "citations" you wanted. Please > kindly advise. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ====== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" > wrote: > > Hi Again Tep, > > > (snipped) > > > > (3) There are a few suttas instructing laypeople how to become > > > Sotapanna and Anagami, Mike. > > > > Thanks, Tep, I have read them. I don't have them indexed though-- > could you > > cite them for us? I think it would be especially valuable if we can find > > instances of the Buddha advising laypeople to go to the roots of > trees or > > attend retreats and so on. > > > . > > > > mike 44615 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. buddhistmedi... Hello Nina (Phil and others) - The two quotes are excellent; the second one, however, touches my heart deeply. It will go into my notebook so I can read it several times. Thank you very much, Nina. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, Phil and all, > We have been discussing about the right conditions for direct awareness and > understanding. It is a point people always wonder about. Is it only > listening? Tep quoted a text about asking questions, as one of the > conditions. (snipped) > I talked with Phil about stories we cling to. I quote more: > > Khun Sujin stressed during the discussion that when we go to sleep all the stories we made up during the day are forgotten. It is true that when I am asleep I do not know who I am, whom I am married to or where I live. We have forgotten our joys, fears and worries. When we are asleep and not dreaming there are no processes of cittas which experience objects impinging on the six doors. There are bhavangacittas (life continuum), cittas which have the function of keeping the continuity in life, and these cittas experience the > same object as the rebirth-consciousness, which is the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the previous life. > It is beneficial to know about such details, it helps us to understand that all the stories we are absorbed in now are nothing at all. They exist only so long as we are thinking about them, but they are forgotten as soon as we are asleep. Khun Sujin said that we should not wait until we go to sleep to forget about the stories we make up, but that we should become detached from them from now on. > Attachment does not bring peace, understanding that everything is very temporary conditions Peace. One can come to realize that the processes of citta which experience sense objects pass like a flash and that there is then thinking about them. We live in our own world of thinking from birth to death. We have different feelings because of our thinking, but everything passes like a flash, it is very temporary. After seeing there is thinking, after hearing there is thinking. What we are used to taking for a permanent thing appears for a very short moment and then it is completely gone. We have heard this before but it is so good to be reminded of the truth. > Nina 44616 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:06pm Subject: Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 christine_fo... Hello Tep, Phil, Sarah, and all, Thank you for your posts on this and other threads ... I am reading with keen interest and will re-join the threads in a few days. I'm flying north to join Azita, Shakti and Tom (dsg members from USA) in Cairns this evening after work for the ANZAC day long weekend ... I hear they met up last night for dinner with lots of laughter - mainly lobha, but interspersed with Dhamma, I'm sure. You know ... the usual. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: <<>> 44617 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) christine_fo... Hello Sarah and Nina (and Joop if still reading) :-) "I really don't understand why the two grand old ladies are so problem- denying (naive?) that they don't see why you stop, as so many other non-dogmatics did stop. It's not a problem that DSG is a Theravada- forum but they refuse to consider that the way the discussions in it are organized, can be changed." O.K. - that's torn it!! I've seen the Heaven-born come and go, shaking their heads at the unregenerate reprobates on this list .. But to discover at this late stage that there is a Secret Honours List which ordinary members don't know about ... well!! How do the rest of us get to be one of these Grand Old Ladies (if isn't this Age- ism and Sex-ism, rather than Buddh-ism?) I'm fully qualified - I'm female, naive, and like the way DSG is organized ... I'll be watching the New Years Honours List with an eagle eye ... metta, Chris - aka 'Would-be if she Could-be member of the "Order of the Grande Dame"' 44618 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 sarahprocter... Hi Chris (aka 'Would-be if she Could-be member of the "Order of the Grande Dame"), Azita (another with potential), Shakti & Tom, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Thank you for your posts on this and other threads ... I am reading > with keen interest and will re-join the threads in a few days. > I'm flying north to join Azita, Shakti and Tom (dsg members from USA) > in Cairns this evening after work for the ANZAC day long weekend ... I > hear they met up last night for dinner with lots of laughter - mainly > lobha, but interspersed with Dhamma, I'm sure. You know ... the > usual. :-) .... S: Hope you all have a good weekend get-together and I know you'll have some good dhamma discussions as well as lobha. I'm sure you'll all have topics in mind. Hope we can encourage you all (inc Shakti & Tom perhaps) to write some fun reports. Also look f/w to your comments on those other threads when you get back.... Metta, Sarah p.s Shakti - thx again for the parcel. 44619 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (333) Evan_Stamato... Hi Htoo, Interesting post on kamma. I have been thinking about what it is we "take" with us into our next lifetimes because many in the world are focussed on building up their material wealth especially in the western world. This I saw as a problem because it is quite clear that even though material wealth provides pleasure for the five chords of sensual pleasure, it cannot accompany one into the next lifetime continue providing its pleasure. So what is it that one "takes" with one in the next lifetime? The mind (citta/cetasika)? As you correctly state below, no, since they rise and fall continuously in rapid succession, they don't even accompany us in this lifetime. The conclusion I came to (flame suit on) is that the mind has a tendancy to develop patterns of thought. These mind patterns result in our behaviour and likes/dislikes. It is these mind patterns that we "take" with us from lifetime to lifetime. Then I concluded that these mind patterns must be related to kamma because the Buddha clearly states that our kamma follows us into our next lifetimes and nothing else. Well, if that was all there was, just my thoughts on the subject, I would not have written this email. However, last weekend I went to the Bodhivana Monastery, East Warburton to offer dhanna to the monks. At the monastery, Ajahn Kalyano, while answering someone else's question, talked about mind conditioning and made the statement that ones conditioning is one's kamma. I made the connection that I couldn't make before and all the pieces fell together. What I called mind patterns and what Ajahn Kalyano called mind conditioning ARE our kamma. This is what we take with us. Even though it is not clearly visible, it is visible in our tendancies to think, speak and act in certain ways. This of course conditions the world around us in how others think, talk and act of/with/about us and this is our kamma. Well, it was kind of a revelation to see the link for me so I thought I would share it with you and see what you think about this. With Metta, Evan Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma are like shades of our body. Our body is what exists. When the body does not exist, then there will not exist its shade. Wherever we go, our shade also move along with our body. When does that shade disappear? When the body disappears, its shade also disappears. 1)Is kamma a citta? No, kamma is not a citta. 2)Is kamma a cetasika? In general sense, no. Kamma is not a cetasika except sahajata-kamma. 3)Is kamma a rupa? No. It's definitely not. 4)Is kamma nibbana? No. Kamma is not nibbana. 5)Is kamma a reality? Hard to answer. Counter question will be 'Is the shade a reality?' I was considering whether kamma is wrongly appointed as God by many people and many other religions. Can anyone see God? Can anyone see kamma? One can see the results of kamma but not the kamma directly. If the appointed God is kamma, is it logical just to pray without ever doing good things and refraining from bad things? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Recent one is 341 now. 44620 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. philofillet Hi Nina, Tep and all > predict what the next moment will be like. When there is attachment we can > see it as just a reality. Ph: This is something I've been thinking a lot during my time off- line. I can see a danger in this for me. "Oh, yes, I glanced at that woman with lust but it is just attachment rising and falling away. It is jsut conditioned nama. Nothing to worry about." So it seems there is a risk of becoming too comfortable with akusala. (Even if we see it for what it is, it still accumulates and who knows what that will lead too.) I read that Kh Sujin says she doesn't worry about her unwholesome states at all. And it's true, worrying about them after they are gone does no good. So I have been feeling that what the Buddha called "the guardians of the world" are very important. Hiri and ottapa (shame and concern for the consequences of wrong doing, or is it the other way around) can arise, along with wise attention, I guess, and other cetasikas, at the moment a desirable object impinges, and then there is kusala. Of course, things happen so quickly that I would think it is a bit further along in the processes that these helpful cetasikas arise. We cannot "stop at seeing" yet. In any case, I have been aware of not wanting to lean too cozily on "being mindful of present realities" because that is way beyond me. Nevertheless, there can be peace and a kind of release from extended unwholesomeness even from intellectual understanding of them. And the intellectual understanding may help to condition something more deeply liberating. Khun Sujin pointed out that we need many > "ingredients" for the growth of right understanding. These ingredients are > the sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) which have been accumulated > and which support one another and co-operate so that right understanding can > develop to the degree that it can achieve detachment from the self. A cook > needs many ingredients in order to compose a meal. In the same way many > ingredients are needed for a moment of precise understanding of the reality > which appears. Ph: I'd want to be careful with this wording, because ingredients are usually added intentionally following a recipe, and we know what recipes for mindfulness can lead to! Perhaps if we think of them as naturally occuring ingredients, perhaps the vitamins and minerals and juiciness that occur naturally in a piece of fruit when conditions are right for it to be wholesome and delicious. It is necessary to accumulate many moments of reading, > listening, studying and considering. When we study the Dhamma in detail, we > collect ingredients which lead to direct understanding later on. Khun Sujin > said: > > We read in order to understand this moment. > We listen in order to understand this moment. > We consider in order to understand this moment. > When one is aware and there is no progress, one can know why: there is not > enough understanding of the details of the Dhamma. > Ph: Nina, I read from you in a post "all this study should lead us back to the moment." And it does seem to, ever so gradually. I will be writing (conjecturing, as James rightly puts it) when I get back to James on his post. (Thanks in passing, James. Probably not today.) Thanks again for this and all your helpful guidance, Nina. I have been learning so much from your books and the posts of yours that I have collected. ("Nina classics" I call them - my own UPS!) Metta, Phil 44621 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:21pm Subject: Re: Right livelihood dhammanando_... Dear Sarah, > S: Thank you so much for the helpful commentary details to > this oft-quoted sutta. I've often wished to see the > commentary to it. If it's not too much trouble, could I ask > you to also provide the details for the other trades > mentioned in the same way? I append translations of the Muula-paalii, Atthakathaa and .Tiikaa below. Va.nijjaa Sutta ''pa~ncimaa, bhikkhave, va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa. katamaa pa~nca? satthava.nijjaa, sattava.nijjaa, ma.msava.nijjaa, majjava.nijjaa, visava.nijjaa -- imaa kho, bhikkhave, pa~nca va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa''ti. sattama.m. (AN. iii. 208) Discourse on Trades These five trades, bhikkhus, should not be undertaken by an upaasaka. What five? Trading in weapons, trading in living beings, trading in flesh, trading in intoxicants, trading in poison. These then, bhikkhus, are five trades that should not be undertaken by an upaasaka. The seventh. _________________ Atthakathaa sattame "va.nijjaa" ti vaa.nijakammaani. "upaasakenaa" ti tisara.nagatena. "satthava.nijjaa" ti aavudhabha.n.da.m kaaretvaa tassa vikkayo. "sattava.nijjaa" ti manussavikkayo. "ma.msava.nijjaa" ti suukaramigaadayo posetvaa tesa.m vikkayo. "majjava.nijjaa" ti ya.mki~nci majja.m kaaretvaa tassa vikkayo. "visava.nijjaa" ti visa.m kaaretvaa tassa vikkayo. iti sabbampi ima.m va.nijja.m neva attanaa kaatu.m, na pare samaadapetvaa kaaretu.m va.t.tati. (AA. iii. 303) Commentary "In the seventh sutta, activities of selling are called "trading". The phrase "by an upaasaka" means by one who has gone to the Three Refuges. Having someone make weaponry, and then selling it, is called "trading in weapons". The selling of humans is called "trading in living beings". The rearing and selling of animals such as pigs and deer is called "trading in flesh". Having someone make anything that is intoxicating, and then selling it, is called "trading in intoxicants". Having someone make a poison, and then selling it, is called "trading in poison". In this regard one should neither undertake any of these trades oneself nor induce another to do so." _________________ .Tiikaa (A`nguttara .Tiikaa to the Va.nijjaa Sutta) sattame "satthava.nijjaa" ti aavudhabha.n.da.m katvaa vaa kaaretvaa vaa kata.m vaa pa.tilabhitvaa tassa vikkayo. "aavudhabha.n.da.m kaaretvaa tassa vikkayo" ti ida.m pana nidassanamatta.m. "suukaramigaadayo posetvaa tesa.m vikkayo" ti suukaramigaadayo posetvaa tesa.m ma.msa.m sampaadetvaa vikkayo. ettha ca satthava.nijjaa paroparaadhanimittataaya akara.niiyaa vuttaa, sattava.nijjaa abhujissabhaavakara.nato, ma.msavisava.nijjaa vadhahetuto, majjava.nijjaa pamaada.t.thaanato. a.t.thama.m uttaanameva. Sub-commentary In the seventh sutta, "trading in weapons" means making weaponry, or having someone else make weaponry, or obtaining weaponry made by someone else [i.e. without one's own instigation] and then selling it. [As for the Atthakathaa's passage,] "having someone make weaponry, and then selling it", this is merely one illustration [of trading in weapons]. [The Atthakathaa's passage] "the rearing and selling of animals such as pigs and deer" means the rearing of animals such as pigs and deer in order to obtain and sell their flesh. Herein, it is said that trading in weapons should not be done because of its being a cause of violence in others; trading in living beings should not be done because it is the cause of another to be deprived of his status as a freeman [or simply, "causes enslavement"]; trading in flesh and in poisons should not be done because it is the cause of killing; trading in intoxicants should not be done because it is the cause of heedlessness. _________________ Other explanations of the "five trades not to be done" are given in the Liinatthappakaasanii and Abhinava.tiikaa on the Saama~n~naphala Sutta, and the Majjhima .Tiikaa on the Bhayabherava Sutta. These explanations differ in the phrasing but are substantially the same in meaning as that of the A`nguttara .Tiikaa. The only significant additions in them are that "trading in poison" is taken to include collecting poisons as well as manufacturing them, and that "trading in flesh" is possibly given a broader scope: "ma.msava.nijjaa" tisuunakaaraadayo viya migasuukaraadike posetvaa ma.msa.m sampaadetvaa vikkayo. "Trading in flesh" means [those occupations] beginning with slaughter-house work, such as rearing animals like deer and pigs, and then obtaining and selling their flesh." I think the implication here is that the animal husbandry referred to in the Atthakathaa is just one example, and that the phrase "[those occupations] beginning with slaughter-house work" would suggest the inclusion of other killing-related occupations such as hunting, fishing and trapping. Best wishes, Dhammanando 44622 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:38pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 173 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== We may think time and again of the urgency of mindfulness, but inspite of that we can notice that sati very seldom arises. We are impatient and we find it difficult to persevere with the development of satipaììhåna. The suttas mention several factors which hinder “exertion, application, striving”. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Tens, Chapter II, §4, Obstruction) about five mental obstructions which cause wholesome qualities to decline: * "Herein a monk has doubts and waverings about the Teacher. He is not drawn to him, he is not sure about him… Again, monks, a monk has doubts about the Dhamma, about the Sangha ( the Order of monks), about the training… he is vexed with his comrades in the brahma-life, displeased, troubled in mind, come to a stop. In a monk who is thus, his mind inclines not to exertion, to application, to perseverance, to striving…" * We may doubt whether there can be an “ariyan Sangha”, people who have developed the eightfold Path and attained enlightenment. We may have doubts about the usefulness of sati right now, of mindfulness of visible object, sound or any other reality which appears. At the moment of doubt there cannot be right effort. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44623 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:38pm Subject: Review of messages # 27710/ Mahanidana Sutta buddhistmedi... Hi all - Let's review one more message in the "preview set" initiated by Connie for the Mahanidana Sutta Review Series. # 27710 : A dialogue between MichaelB and RobertK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It all started with RobK's brief definition of latent tendencies (7 anusayas): "Latent tendencies (anusaya) are subtle defilements that lie dormant 'waiting' for the opportunity to arise as pariyutthana where they are active forms of craving, dosa and wrong view". MichaelB then asked 2 questions: "This description gives the (wrong) impression that the anusaya are not subject to change and may even have some sort of substance. So, <1> which would be a proper description that would dispel this impression?<2> Is there something in the commentaries to this effect?" Some excerpts from RobertK's answers are given as follows: <1> The seven anusayas are: lust for sense pleasure (kamaraganusaya) the latent tendency of aversion (patighanusaya) the latent tendency of conceit (mananusaya) the latent tendency of wrong view (ditthanusaya) the latent tendency of doubt (vicikicchanusaya) the latent tendency of lust for becoming (bhava-raganusaya) the latent tendency of ignorance (avijjanusaya) If there were no anusaya then there could be no conditions for any greed , wrong view or aversion. The arahants have eradicated all anusaya. <2> (A) From VM XXII, 60 : For it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent tendencies (anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising of greed for sense desires, etc., again and again." (B.) From Bodhi's "The Great Discourse on Causation" (p65): Almost every moment there is the accumulating of new tendencies. Now perhaps we are kind, polite people but tendencies change - and next life we may be born somewhere we we cannot hear dhamma and we gradually develop strong tendencies to roughness and stupidity. Accumulating is happening right now - the accumulating of understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for insight to arise. Not by self or wanting or freewill but by the right conditions. Tep's comment: ------------------------ The eradication of wrong view through accumulation of right view (abandoned by "seeing") is one of the seven abandonments given in MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta: "There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing". Please note that abandoning anusayas by "restraining" is the use of indriya-samvara-sila that has been discussed by Sarah. The abandoning of anusayas by "destroying" means wiping out akusala vitakka (the result is samma-sankappa). The abandoning of anusayas by developing is accomplished by developing the seven factors of Awakening. All the seven abandonments are solidly based on yonisomanasikara (wise attention). This sutta is quite good. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002-tb0.html Respectfully, Tep ======= 44624 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) sarahprocter... Hi James (Sukin, Betty & Phil), --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Actually, in this group there is a real need to discuss her > approach because it has a strong influence on the thinking of several > members. However, unfortunately, such a discussion is usually not > very effective because she isn't a member of this group to discuss her > approach herself. I can listen to her tapes, and comment on those (as > I have done) but still she isn't here to clarify any points I might > make. It is like discussing a phantom. .... S: It's true that K.Sujin, the 'phantom', won't be writing any replies herself as she almost never writes. I do have another suggestion, however. Why not address your points/queeries to her here and Sukin or Betty can read them out to here when they meet (usually weekly), record her comments/answers (I believe Sukin has a recorder) and transcribe back (or summarise if that's a problem) for you and the rest of us to see? You could send a few each week. Brief and polite would probably be more likely to elicit responses:-). Of course, the turn around time would be a little slow, but it is for some of our replies anyway. Metta, Sarah p.s [Sukin, perhaps you could confirm you'd be happy to help with this. We might get to see a little more of your posts at the same time:-)). 44625 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right livelihood sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > I append translations of the Muula-paalii, Atthakathaa > and .Tiikaa below. .... S: Excellent. Thank you very much indeed for this assistance. It's exactly what I've been interested to see and I'll probably refer to it often. With respect, Sarah ======== > > Va.nijjaa Sutta > > ''pa~ncimaa, bhikkhave, va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa. > katamaa pa~nca? satthava.nijjaa, sattava.nijjaa, > ma.msava.nijjaa, majjava.nijjaa, visava.nijjaa -- imaa kho, > bhikkhave, pa~nca va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa''ti. > sattama.m. > (AN. iii. 208) > > Discourse on Trades > > These five trades, bhikkhus, should not be > undertaken by an upaasaka. What five? Trading in > weapons, trading in living beings, trading in > flesh, trading in intoxicants, trading in poison. > These then, bhikkhus, are five trades that should > not be undertaken by an upaasaka. > > The seventh. > _________________ > 44626 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:19pm Subject: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfuln buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James (Sukin, Betty & Phil), > S: It's true that K.Sujin, the 'phantom', won't be writing any replies > herself as she almost never writes. I do have another suggestion, however. > This is a very interesting compromise, and I know that you are trying to be conciliatory, but this couldn't possibly work. As I'm sure you have found with your correspondence with Bhikkhu Bodhi, it takes direct communication to reach a clarification of points. Communication is a give and take between people. Could you have communicated with B. Bodhi by asking simple questions to a third party, have that third party go to him and ask the question (without being able to clarify if necessary), then B. Bodhi speaks the answer and the third party writes out the reply (possibly missing information or wording it differently), and then you have to wait weeks and weeks for any response? In today's age of instant communication, that would be ridiculous. If B. Bodhi, a famous bhikkhu of the highest stature and reputation, can take the time to correspond in person and answer questions from the members of this group, then surely K. Sujin can do the same. Metta, James 44627 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 0:13am Subject: Is "good friend" rupa or nama? philofillet Hi all Today I was listening to a talk in which natural decisive support condition was discussed. Sarah asked Kh Sujin about weather, which is one of the n.d.s.cs and Kh Sujin confirmed that in that case the conditioning factors are to be reduced to rupas - the temperature, the pressure etc. Then the "good friend" which is also considered a n.d.s.c came up and it was agreed (though not emphatically enough to stop me from wondering if it was a full answer) that good friend as conditioning factor is also rupa, as visible object, as sound of voice. I hadn't thought about it before, but I would have thought that it is the wisdom of the good friend, the panna that is the conditioning factor of more importance - in other words, a nama. That's what I *would* have thought but now there is a fog when I think about whether panna arising through one person can condition cittas in another person. -If the "good friend" is defined in terms of their ability to help us understand Dhamma, wouldn't it be his or her panna that "counts?" - Is it wrong view to think in terms of panna of one person conditioning cittas of another? Is it just panna conditioning citta, irregardless of whether one or two or 100 people are involved? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil 44628 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 0:47am Subject: Talk on mana (pt 1) harsh and restless cittas ( was [dsg] Conceit and dosa ) philofillet Hi all > > Do you remember the talk I'm referring to? > ... > S: Not sure - are you referring to the Burma tapes? Definitely not with > dosa. As it happens, the cassette with that talk came to the top of the pile today. It's from Burma, Oct. 17, 2003. Here's some of it: Jon: When the mana is there, mixed up with the wishing for the well being of.. Kh Sujin: Different moments. Jon: But the characteristic of one vs. the other will be... Kh Sujin: I think mana can be known when it arises, like dosa. It's hard, it's harsh, it's not moderate. (This may have been part of what threw me off. The word "harsh" has such aversive connotations - I wouldn't have associated it with mana, but rather with the dosa that arises when our lobha-rooted self-image is thrown for a loop. But perhaps all akusala cetasikas are harsh in some way, just as they are unstable - even though they may seem to the ignorant mind to be strong and agreeable?) Jon: Mostly I would say though that mana is more apparent in one's daily life when it conditions dosa, as it often does, because the other person hasn't acted to us in the way they should. But the mana that comes with being a bit pleased with oneself, for example, seems different somehow, because one is a condition for dosa and the other is a condition for attachment, or pleasant feeling. Sarah: I think that the first one may just be attachment to oneself, like "why didn't he treat me properly. It may just be clinging to oneself, finding oneself important. Sometimes it's not clear whether it's attachment, or mana, or even self-view, they follow each other so quickly. Kh Sujin: When one is trying so hard to know, that's not the moment of understanding. But whenever it arises, it has its own characteristic. Like dosa has its own characteristic, and mana has its own characteristic too. It's the moment of uneasiness, at that moment of having mana. Sarah: How can it be moment of uneasiness, when it's accompanying lobha-mula citta? Kh Sujin: Because all akusala are uneasy. Someone (clarifying): Restless. Kh Sujin: Restless. (Ph: This "restless" might be related to the "harshness" in some way. BTW,I thought the only cittas that are accompanied by restlessness are rooted only in moha, without lobha or dosa. But here it seems that all akusala cittas are restless, irregardless of the hetus.) I'll type out more later. Metta, Phil p.s Sarah - re that paraphrase of the point you made that caused me to forget about the iron. As soon as it comes around, I'll post it. I know I tend to be a little too free about paraphrasing people. 44629 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:16am Subject: Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Htoo, Robert K, Ven Dhammanando, Chris, Azita & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) Dhp Verse 124. “If there is no wound on the hand, one may handle poison; poison does not affect one who has no wound; there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention.” We discussed various concerns regarding right livelihood further as others have mentioned. Various scenarios were mentioned such as selling or purchasing alcohol, renting a premise to those engaged in questionable practices, assisting in an operating theatre when abortions are performed and so on. As both the verse above and the commentaries to the Va.nijjaa Sutta indicate (as just quoted*), it is the ‘evil intention’ that is indicative of the wrong livelihood, not necessarily the actions observed. For example, the trading in flesh which is avoided by an upasaka (“one who has gone to the Three Refuges”) refers (according to the Tiika) to “the rearing and killing of these (animals) in order to obtain and sell their flesh, or causing others to rear and kill them.” If we sell alcohol or pets in a store, rent out the premises or assist a surgeon in the case above, usually there’s no intention to make anyone intoxicated, to take life or to encourage any illegal or disreputable practices in the rented out premise. We don’t know the intentions or accumulations of the customers. We don’t need to think of a ‘whole situation’. Unwholesome kamma is just a moment of intention. As we know, there are likely to be many moments of wrong speech, deeds or livelihood often during the day when, for example, we don’t speak correctly in our work.** Clearly a sotapanna has no need for any abstention from such wrong speech or deeds in the course of his/her livelihood because at the moment of lokuttara (supramundane) path consciousness, any such inclination to wrong livelihood has been eradicated for good and sila of this kind has been perfected. Before we discussed the example of the dropping of the bomb which I’d heard and found helpful to reflect on further. I wrote: “As to the intention or kamma, it depends whether there is the intention to kill or whether it’s one’s duty to just drop the bomb, without knowing what will happen. There may not be any intention to kill people, but one may just have been given the order.”*** Some may question whether it really is possible for a sotapanna to work in the military in such a way or aid a killer, an alcoholic or someone else who is clearly involved in wrong livelihood. The answer, I think, is ‘yes’. Even if one knows what actions may follow, one may still be assisting with metta or other wholesome mental factors, knowing one cannot prevent the others’ deeds. In the commentary to the Dhp verse above, we read about the wife of a hunter who was a sotapanna and whose husband was a hunter. She’d assist him with his nets, bows and arrows when he went hunting. When asked about this, the Buddha answered, "Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get killed. The wife of the hunter was only obeying her husband in getting things for him. Just as the hand that has no wound is not affected by poison, so also, because she has no intention to do evil she is not doing any evil." (full account below****). In other words, if it’s not one’s intention to do evil, there’s no wrong action involved. We may think now about following the precepts or avoiding particular scenarios, but it is only at actual moments of abstention from unwholesome deeds that there is the training that will lead to the absolute abstention of the sotapanna, like for the hunter’s wife. There cannot be such purification of sila without the real understanding of when wholesome and unwholesome intentions and other mental states arise momentarily. To stress the point, the same speech or deeds, such as the assistance with the bows and arrows, can be performed with different kinds of mental states – wholesome and unwholesome. In this regard, we discussed how sila can be referred to as kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome) or avyakata (indeterminate, i.e referring to the kiriya cittas of the arahant). For example, we might assist a hunter with metta, with a wish to aid the act of killing or because we’ve been instructed to. We all have many unwholesome moments in a day -- such as those concerned with wrong livelihood -- but we can learn to see that when they arise, there is no self involved. They are momentary wrong intentions or kamma that need to be seen for what they are with detachment and awareness. This is how they can be understood and eventually eradicated. Metta, Sarah * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43971 **http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44588 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44621 *** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43150 **** web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2f.htm Dhammapada, Verse124: IX (8) ,The Story of Kukkutamitta While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (124) of this book with reference to the hunter Kukkutamitta and his family. At Rajagaha there was once a rich man's daughter who had attained Sotapatti Fruition as a young girl. One day, Kukkutamitta, a hunter, came into town in a cart to sell venison. Seeing Kukkutamitta the hunter, the rich young lady fell in love with him immediately; she followed him, married him and lived with him in a small village. As a result of that marriage, seven sons were born to them and in course of time, all the sons got married. One day, the Buddha surveyed the world early in the morning with his supernormal power and found that the hunter, his seven sons and their wives were due for attainment of Sotapatti Fruition. So, the Buddha went to the place where the hunter had set his trap in the forest. He put his footprint close to the trap and seated himself under the shade of a bush, not far from the trap. When the hunter came, he saw no animal in the trap; he saw the footprint and surmised that someone must have come before him and let cut the animal. So, when he saw the Buddha under the shade of the bush, he took him for the man who had freed the animal from his trap and flew into a rage. He took out his bow and arrow to shoot at the Buddha, but as he drew his bow, he became immobilized and remained fixed in that position like a statue. His sons followed and found their father; they also saw the Buddha at some distance and thought he must he the enemy of their father. All of them took out their bows and arrows to shoot at the Buddha, but they also became immobilized and remained fixed in their respective postures. When the hunter and his sons failed to return, the hunter's wife followed them into the forest, with her seven daughters-in-law. Seeing her husband and all her sons with their arrows aimed at the Buddha, she raised both her hands and shout: "Do not kill my father." When her husband heard her words, he thought, "This must be my father-in-law", and her sons thought, "This must be our grandfather"; and thoughts of loving-kindness came into them. Then the lady said to them, ''Put away your bows and arrows and pay obeisance to my father". The Buddha realized that, by this time, the minds of the hunter and his son; had softened and so he willed that they should be able to move and to put away their bows and arrows. After putting away their bows and arrows, they pad obeisance to the Buddha and the Buddha expounded the Dhamma to them. In the end, the hunter, his seven sons and seven daughters-in-law, all fifteen of them, attained Sotapatti Fruition. Then the Buddha returned to the monastery and told Thera Ananda and other bhikkhus about the hunter Kukkutamitta and his family attaining Sotapatti Fruition in the early part of the morning. The bhikkhus then asked the Buddha, "Venerable Sir, is the wife of the hunter who is a sotapanna, also not guilty of taking life, if she has been getting things like nets, bows and arrows for her husband when he goes out hunting?" To this question her Buddha answered, "Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get killed. The wife of the hunter was only obeying her husband in getting things for him. Just as the hand that has no wound is not affected by poison, so also, because she has no intention to do evil she is not doing any evil." ========================================== 44630 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (333) htootintnaing Dear Evan, As your reply post is very clear and it reveals that the message that I intended to transfer from my post 'Dhamma Thread (333)', I do not have any special thing to add. I mean I think you feel 'the identical copy' of what I deeply feel in my inner self. But for the sake of communication, I will reply your whole post as 'in-line reply' or 'reply in the made of line by line discussion'. When many lines or sentences are agreed, they will be in paragraph as in the original post that is they will be intact and undistingrated. My reply will largely be just 'yes' 'agreed' 'of course' 'indeed' mode. With Metta, Htoo Naing You wrote in your reply like followings; --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: Hi Htoo, Interesting post on kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have still been learning. Once The Buddha picked up a handful of leaves and said, 'Bhikkhave, or bhikkhus!'. 'This is what I preach and what I know is like the leaves in the whole forest. While just a handful or fistfull of Dhamma in The Buddha hand suffices many many beings to be liberated, we do not need to bother to know everything. Even Venerable Sariputta would not know as much as The Buddha. I tried to write the topic 'Kamma' to be interesting so that wrong assumption can be replaced by right thinking pattern (borrowing your words) and develop right view. I do not say my post on Kamma that is 'Dhamma Thread (333)' is a complete post. There are many interesting texts regarding Kamma. What I have written is just for kicking-off. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan then continued: I have been thinking about what it is we "take" with us into our next lifetimes because many in the world are focussed on building up their material wealth especially in the western world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is exactly what happens in my society as well. This happens in all societies. As the current topic is on Kamma, we would not lead to other directions of discussion. Yes. Almost all people are following material wealth. They do rely on material wealth and will say that wealth has to be searched or else there will not be wealth with them. When there is no wealth, then they will not be happy. This is the primary force that pushes all people doing searching for wealth. When wealth is reaped, people become satisfied. But this still does not stop. They want their wealth with them when they die. Some societies even practise that when human being dies, wealth is put in the dead body and in the coffin so that the dead being might use his wealth in next life. Some try to transfer their wealth in the form of meritorious deeds or wholesome deeds. This is also a primary source to do sankhara or committing kamma or actions. People reap their wealth. They satisfy. They want to bring the wealth with them. Some do know that this is impossible. But they have some knowledge that there is a way to transfer to next life. That is by doing good kamma or good deeds or good actions before they die in this current life. Actually kamma is following right now and after. I am spreading the inner things even though some of my posts may not very clear to readers. People think that wealth is essential and when they do have wealth they do want to bring with them to next life. But in actual sense, kamma is following even right now. That is why it is compared with shade. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: This I saw as a problem because it is quite clear that even though material wealth provides pleasure for the five chords of sensual pleasure, it cannot accompany one into the next lifetime continue providing its pleasure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are right. Material wealth cannot accompany one into the next lifetime continue providing its pleasure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: So what is it that one "takes" with one in the next lifetime? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This point as I understand is that we are talking in daily life language. The answer is that there is nothing that one takes with one in the next lifetime except the kamma he or she has committed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: The mind (citta/cetasika)? As you correctly state below [Htoo:--> sorry for deleting my old post below. I snipped it as we have both read. If someone in this list has an interest please refer to Dhamma Thread (333) for 'As you correctly state below' said by Evan. Mods will be happy with snipping here ;-)], Evan continued: no, since they rise and fall continuously in rapid succession, they don't even accompany us in this lifetime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. But the wealthy are not wealthy with what they should be. That is they do think that their wealth does accompany them and gives them the power of doing everything. But in actual sense, no wealth is following them right now. What follow is just anicca and dukkha as wealth is anatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: The conclusion I came to (flame suit on) is that the mind has a tendancy to develop patterns of thought. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like your new 'words' of patterns of thought or thought-pattern. To become ariyas in my sense means 'to be already trained to develop a new style of tendency of developing 'patterns of thought'. Vedanaa paccaya tanhaa. Feeling conditions craving. As arahats have already been trained [by arahatta magga nana], their thought patterns become totally different from non-ariyas. Because of this training feeling can no more condition craving in so- called their selves. That is even though there are many feeling through out the current life of arahats, they do not have craving any more while all other beings of non-arahat do have craving in different forms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: These mind patterns result in our behaviour and likes/dislikes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Exactly. I totally agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan: It is these mind patterns that we "take" with us from lifetime to lifetime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. Some may say that as 'accumulation'. Some may say that as 'tendency'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: Then I concluded that these mind patterns must be related to kamma because the Buddha clearly states that our kamma follows us into our next lifetimes and nothing else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. The patterns are all kamma with the exception of arahatta- patterns. Nothing follow us in next life except our patterns. But in arahats as arahatta-patterns are not kamma there does not follow anything and that is final bliss and eternal bliss. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: Well, if that was all there was, just my thoughts on the subject, I would not have written this email. However, last weekend I went to the Bodhivana Monastery, East Warburton to offer dhanna to the monks. At the monastery, Ajahn Kalyano, while answering someone else's question, -------- Evan continued: talked about mind conditioning and made the statement that ones conditioning is one's kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think this makes sense. What I understand from your reply post is ... One's conditioning = One's sankhaara = One's kamma So I agree with that venerable's talk of answering someone else's question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: I made the connection that I couldn't make before and all the pieces fell together. What I called mind patterns and what Ajahn Kalyano called mind conditioning ARE our kamma. This is what we take with us. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. Yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: Even though it is not clearly visible, it is visible in our tendancies to think, speak and act in certain ways. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sure. You are making sense. There are people who have tendency to behave in aversive way. There are people who have tendency to behave in sensuous way. There are people who have tendency to behave in ignorant way. There are people who have tendency to behave in exploratory way. There are people who have tendency to behave in clear way. There are people who have tendency to behave in intelligent way. Yes. I agree. The tendency may well be visible in the mind door in our inner self. Some certain animal has teeth and canine and no other weapon. There is a tendency to use canine as a weapon. If the head is tapped, the tapper will be bitten by the canine. If the ear is twisted, the twister will be bitten by the canine. If the snout is rubbed, the rubber will be bitten by the canine. If the tail is pulled, the puller will be bitten by the canine. This kind of reproducibility is tendency and it is because of that tendency that behaviour arises. This is acting in a certain way. If there is wisdom and mindfulness to see these things, one will see one day that there are tendencies and these are patterns of thoughts and these should be modified into non-operative patterns of thought or functional patterns of thought if they want to avoid suffering forever. What I agree above in your sentence is that 'it is visible in our tendencies to think'. This is true for those who do know their mind. If not, they will not know the tendency. Examples are someone may constantly be saying that there are only naama and ruupa and nothing else in this world. But that someone does not know his tendency and when he is ignorant that is when he departs temporarily from his text-books of Dhamma in his thought process then he may be behaving according to his tendency. That is 1. aversive 2. sensuous 3. ignorant 4. exploratory 5. clear 6. intelligent tendency. You said, 'it is visible in our tendencies to think, speak, and act in certain way.'. You may see this. I may see this. Some may see this. But not all beings see this tendency. Actually there are many many infinite beings who never know these tendencies. I said 'infinite beings'. Because there is greater hell-population than human beings. There is greater animal-population than human population. Even among human beings there are many who never know these tendencies. Because they all are following the routine path of from-birth-to- death and constantly searching sensuous things and never think out to clear up all these tendencies of thought patterns that always lead to new and new life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: This of course conditions the world around us in how others think, talk and act of/with/about us and this is our kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As soon as we change our patterns a bit to better profile, this change has tremendous effect on the whole world. Example is 'start to breed universal friendliness'. Then if many follow this there will not be any wars, there is no need to use lock, there is no need to contract and the whole world will change to a new world of happiness. But this is rare to happen as there are many different ruling things among dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: Well, it was kind of a revelation to see the link for me so I thought I would share it with you and see what you think about this. With Metta, Evan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I clearly see that you have understood on the post and compared with your daily life and experiences. In this reply, you will see that I included all of your words. I just snipped away all my old post. And I reply each and every word, each and every sentence of your reply post. While some do appreciate this style of reply, some never appreciate and they even shift to different mode of thinking. If you can think over on this reply post, you will see that I do not include any personal things at all. This is Dhamma sharing. This is Dhamma sharing. Book-sharing, text-sharing, notes-sharing etc can be done anywhere in this world where there are materials. Examples are 'Regarding this dhamma please read this book. regarding that dhamma please read that book written by so and so'. Kamma is always with us. What we need to do is to wash the kamma till it becomes clean. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44631 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: Is "good friend" rupa or nama? htootintnaing Hi all Today I was listening to a talk in which natural decisive support condition was discussed. Sarah asked Kh Sujin about weather, which is one of the n.d.s.cs and Kh Sujin confirmed that in that case the conditioning factors are to be reduced to rupas - the temperature, the pressure etc. Then the "good friend" which is also considered a n.d.s.c came up ... snip ... snip ...cittas in another person. -If the "good friend" is defined in terms of their ability to help us understand Dhamma, wouldn't it be his or her panna that "counts?" - Is it wrong view to think in terms of panna of one person conditioning cittas of another? Is it just panna conditioning citta, irregardless of whether one or two or 100 people are involved? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, This is not a feedback. This is just a reply. You have raised good questions. I will be part of audience. NDSCs are always interesting and have immense implications. There are 24 patthana texts. These 24 texts are not 24 paccayas or 24 conditions. I mention this because as the number '24' is the same, some may confuse with texts and 24 paccaya or 24 conditions. These 24 conditions are just a summary of facts in the whole of 24 Patthana texts. There are 24 different conditions that govern dhamma in different ways. Again, if these 24 conditions are summerised, there will only be 4 conditions. Upanissaya paccaya or decisive-support condition is just only one of 4 conditions. Again NDSCs or pakatupanissaya paccaya is just a part of Upanissaya paccaya. This is very wide subject. I will be part of audience in this thread. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44632 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread (334) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma paccaya in the 24 conditional dhamma or 24 paccaya dhamma says something about kamma and its implications. There are 2 kinds of kamma- paccaya. They are sahajaata-kamma paccaya and naanakkhanika-kamma paccaya. Kamma is said to be 'the cetana which pushes the mind to commit an action'. This also comprises that 'the cetata that arises when an action is or was committed'. The cetana that arises and pushes the mind committing an action is sahajata-kamma. All the actions in the past did have cetanas when those actions were committed. The shade of that cetana cetasika always follow the current citta as long as citta arises. It is also kamma and such kamma is hard to be classified as realities. But they have always been there since actions were committed. Such kind of kamma is naanakkhanika kamma. Kamma do have the power to bring up their results. When the results are not given rise yet, kamma may wrongly be assumed as non-existing. But when the resulats are visibly coming, there is no way to escape. Is it fair 'to avoid what one did bad to other' by praying to someone who never exists? Can we stop kamma not to give their results? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44633 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:39am Subject: Free from Fear...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Safe Release from all Anxiety: The young deity Subrahma once asked the Buddha: Always frightened is this Mind! Always agitated is this Mind! About present problems. About future problems. If there is a release from this Anxiety please explain it to me... Whereupon the Blessed Buddha declared: I see no other safety for any living being except the control of the senses, except the relinquishment of all, except the seclusion linking to Enlightenment! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 54 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44634 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: Talk on mana (pt 1) harsh and restless cittas ( was [dsg] Conceit and dosa ) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > Kh Sujin: I think mana can be known when it arises, like dosa. > It's hard, it's harsh, it's not moderate. > > (This may have been part of what threw me off. The word "harsh" > has such aversive connotations - I wouldn't have associated it with > mana, but rather with the dosa that arises when our lobha-rooted > self-image is thrown for a loop. But perhaps all akusala cetasikas > are harsh in some way, just as they are unstable - even though they > may seem to the ignorant mind to be strong and agreeable?) ... S: maybe like harsh, the opposite of gentle or calm? No aversion with mana though. ... > Kh Sujin: Because all akusala are uneasy. > > Someone (clarifying): Restless. > > Kh Sujin: Restless. > > (Ph: This "restless" might be related to the "harshness" in some > way. BTW,I thought the only cittas that are accompanied by > restlessness are rooted only in moha, without lobha or dosa. But > here it seems that all akusala cittas are restless, irregardless of > the hetus.) ... S: Yes, uddhacca cetasika - restlessness arises with all akusala cittas. Thx for clarifying. Metta, Sarah p.s on the other one - not all 'relating to others' is akusala - there can be kindness, sympathy etc. But when self comes into the picture as in 'I'm xyz like you', conceit may well be there....let panna test it out....:-/ ======= 44635 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:34am Subject: Ekamuni Bhikhu's Abhidhamma Knowledge buddhistmedi... Dear all DSG members - Bhikkhu Samahita has posted a lot of messages which span over wide areas in the suttas. His Abhidhamma knowledge is also impressive, although he has not presented it as often. Recently, I asked him a few questions. His answers are very good and I think it may be useful to post a copy of Bhikkhu Samahita's replies here for us to enjoy. [ SD = SariputtaDhamma, a Yahoo! Group] [My Questions] Ven. Samahita & all SD Members - I appreciate your excellent answers in the last post. In the post "Four Grades of Vision" this week there are some terms that are not familiar to me. I would very much be thankful for your help to provide their definitions and the original Pali words with some information about their background. Vision (Is this a nimita?) Continuous sequence of discrete conscious moments Stream of consciousness Questions: 1. What are the conscious moments? Can the conscious moments be discrete sometimes, and continuous some other times? Why? 2. How does the monk experience an established unbroken stream of consciousness in any world? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > > The Four Grades of Vision: > > The Blessed Buddha said: > > In this some recluse or priest by means of alert & > energetic effort > enthusiasm, proper rational attention & > concentrated focus reaches > absorption on this sole thought: In this foul body > of disgusting things > enclosed by skin, there are head & body hairs, > nails, teeth, skin, flesh, > sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, > pleura, spleen, lungs, > mesentery, intestines, stomach, excrement, bile, > lymph, pus, blood, > sweat, fat, tears, tallow, spittle, snot, urine & > joint-fluid. > This is the first attainment of Vision... > > Having done this and gone beyond it, he regards & > perceives any body, > own & others, as only a set of bones covered with > flesh, vessels & skin. > This is the second attainment of Vision... > > Having done this and gone further, he comes to > understand & directly > experience this continuous sequence of discrete > conscious moments > established & manifesting both in this world and > the other worlds. > This is the third attainment of Vision... > > Finally, having done this & gone even further than > beyond that, he comes to > understand & directly experience this unbroken > stream of consciousness > neither established nor manifesting in this world > nor in any other world. > This is the fourth attainment of Vision... > > Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. > Digha Nikaya III 105-5 > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html > > Friendship is the Greatest ! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. ---------------------------------------------- [His Answers] Dear Tep & friends: > Vision = dassana > What are the conscious moments? Any conscious moment is in itself still, and lasts ~ 1/1000 billionth of a second... Our perceived continuous consciousness is thus actually a blinking though very fast. Existence is thus a discrete blinking, like pearls on a thread each conditioning the next link. These states fall into two broad classes: the unconstructed state, which is solely Nibbana, and the conditioned states, which are the momentary mental and material phenomena, that constitute the process of experience. This is in the range of the Higher Science = AbhiDhamma: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html : - ] ---------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep 44636 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 ashkenn2k Hi Tep > > I think there will be no trouble such as 'lobha' and attachment to > ' self ' as long as we look at the practice, along with the evaluation of the training for improvement, simply as a Dhamma learning process- it is just a dhamma - without thinking 'I want result soon for my self '. The right practice is to let go of self and all defilements along the way, while having a clear sense of direction in the background -- this sense of direction toward the goal (fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation) will never ever interfere with our advancement. This way we will be reducing lobha, dosa and moha every day while we are advancing more rapidly toward the goal! k: isnt just looking at the present as not I, myself and mine is the best practise ;-). Why go all the length to do the other while the moment is just understanding the three characterisitics will be the most beneficial and in fact the fastest way is through this way. When there is understanding in the present moment, there will be restraint from all kinds of akusala. Ken O 44637 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right livelihood ashkenn2k Hi Ven Dhammanando, Htoo, Rob K thanks for the help esp Ven Dhammanando who took time and effort to quote it from the commentaries. That helps to dissipate a lot of my doubts. It always good to have great dhamma friends a round when I am perplex over dhamma matters. Cheers to all of you. Ken O 44638 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601- Ken O buddhistmedi... Dear KenO - It is always a pleasure to exchange our thoughts on the Dhamma once in a while. > > k: isnt just looking at the present as not I, myself and mine is the > best practise ;-). Why go all the length to do the other while the > moment is just understanding the three characterisitics will be the > most beneficial and in fact the fastest way is through this way. > When there is understanding in the present moment, there will be > restraint from all kinds of akusala. > You rightfully focus on the present realities, but you may have forgotten that the stream of cittas is also aware of other phenomena that are going on "in the background". I'm talking about such background/foreground activities from the point of view of a meditator from my own experience, rather than from book/intellectual perspective. So I hope you'll forgive me if I don't use the technical terms of the Abhidhamma world. Try kayagatasati bhavana based on the body postures (walking, sitting, standing, lying down) as an example. While you are sitting the awareness (sati-sampajanna) is on the sitting posture, yet you're also aware of other realities (like breathing, sensations and thoughts) in the background. When you do breath meditation in the second tetrad (vesdananupassana), the (in and out) breathing activity is in the background and the 'foreground' awareness is on piti, sukha and cittasankhara respectively. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > 44639 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. buddhistmedi... Hello Phil (Nina, Sarah and Ken O) - Phil always has keen Dhamma observations. Phil: In any case, I have been aware of not wanting to lean too cozily on "being mindful of present realities" because that is way beyond me. Nevertheless, there can be peace and a kind of release from extended unwholesomeness even from intellectual understanding of them. And the intellectual understanding may help to condition something more deeply liberating. Tep: It is way beyond me too. The intellectual understanding is good for intellectual people, but it does not have strength (bala); so it is like a drop of water falling onto a hot pan -- it is not enough to cool down the pan. It will cool the pan if many drops are applied repeatedly. Now, if the hot pan is constantly heated (it is kept on fire) there is no way the pan may be cooled at all. The heat here is analogous to the defilements, and to be "cooled" is analogous to "liberating". Khun Sujin said: > > We read in order to understand this moment. > We listen in order to understand this moment. > We consider in order to understand this moment. > When one is aware and there is no progress, one can know why: there is not enough understanding > of the details of the Dhamma. Tep: Beautifully said! Does she also see the importance of occasionally stepping away from the present-moment understanding in order to review the whole process of consciousness so far, and assess the accomplishment with respect to what remains to be done? " After re-entry into life continuum, adverting, etc., arise again in the same way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the arising of these he reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he rviews the defilements abandoned, he reviews the defilements still remaining, and he reviews nibbana." VM XXII, 19 (page 699). Reviewing and assessment of progress is necessary to move from one ariya level to the next one higher. So it seems reasonable that it should be useful for non-ariya puggalas as well? Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Nina, Tep and all > > > We cannot > > predict what the next moment will be like. When there is > attachment we can > > see it as just a reality. > 44640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: Talk on mana (pt 1) harsh and restless cittas ( was [dsg] Conceit and dosa ) nilovg Hi Phil, Each akusala citta is accompanied by uddhacca, restlessness. But one type of moha-muulacitta is called accompanied by restlessness in order to differentiate it from the type of moha-muulacitta accompanied by doubt. Nina. op 21-04-2005 09:47 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I thought the only cittas that are accompanied by > restlessness are rooted only in moha, without lobha or dosa. But > here it seems that all akusala cittas are restless, irregardless of > the hetus.) 44641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Review of messages # 27710/ Mahanidana Sutta nilovg Dear Tep, the sutta is very good, but just a remark re the translation. This is about the abandoning of the asavas (fermentations or intoxicants), not the latent tendencies. Asavas are defilements arising with the akusala citta. Whereas anusayas, latent tendencies, do not arise with akusala citta, they are just accumulated tendencies lying dormant in the citta. They can be eradicated by lokuttara magga-citta. Nina. op 21-04-2005 06:38 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta: "There are fermentations to be abandoned > by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be > abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to > be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, > and those to be abandoned by developing". > > Please note that abandoning anusayas by "restraining" is the use of > indriya-samvara-sila that has been discussed by Sarah. 44642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is "good friend" rupa or nama? nilovg Hi Phil, natural decisive support- condition is very wide and includes also concepts. Thus, situations, or persons can be favorable or unfavorable. When listening to the good friend, certainly, sound can be a condition. It depends on the aspect one views the matter. You ask: Is it wrong view to think in terms of panna of one person conditioning cittas of another? That sounds complicated to me. The person who speaks may be wise, such as the Buddha. But the listener may not be ready to receive the Dhamma. As Htoo says, we have to take into account that there are many conditions operating, not just one. Nina. op 21-04-2005 09:13 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > > Today I was listening to a talk in which natural decisive support > condition was discussed. 44643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ Striving nilovg Dear Tep, I just answer this part of your message. op 19-04-2005 08:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > How is it possible for the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (4 > satipatthana + 4 iddhipada + 5 indriya + 5 bala + 7 bojjhanga + 8 ariya- > magga) to go to the culmination of their development by means of > your " process of development" that begins with "intellectual > understanding and considering different dhammas that appear"? This > process of development, is it effortless and free from lobha - even > though the practitioner is not yet free from the defilements? Why would > the "considering different dhammas that appear" lead to lokuttara > panna and arahatta-magga eventually? Frankly, I have found it hard to > accept. But if it can, how long would this process take us? I think > this "process" is like trying to fill a large-and-dry swimming pool by > dropping water in it, one drop at a time. ----------------- N: One drop at a time, it has to be like that. Considering dhamma amd then it has to go by the stages of insight. If there is any hastening, no progress. ----------- T: By not thinking about the end result, how can there be a review of > progress? Without reviewing of progress, how can there be right effort > to improve the practice? ------------- N: If we are only concerned with this moment now, developing understanding of this moment, there is no thinking of progress. This is better, thinking is only thinking. We should not think of the past, and the future has not come yet, there is only the present moment. (Sutta of the auspicious). The practice is done with paññaa, and this is, accompanied by right effort already. Because of conditions, not because of thinking of effort. Perhaps this also answers another post of yours: I think that wrong view has to be abandoned first. Lobha, dosa and moha have to be realized as non-self, otherwise they cannot be reduced. I think the dhamma learning process cannot be rapid. We have deeply rooted latent tendencies. Nina. 44644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention nilovg Dear Tep, op 20-04-2005 22:01 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > T: Indeed I do feel that I am able to comprehend nama-rupa more > today than yesterday. Every word you wrote above seems > to "penetrate" my consciousness deeper. Is the fully developed > understanding of the nama-rupa characteristics, excluding the > tilakkhana, known as naama-ruupa-pariccheda-naana? --------------- N: naama-ruupa-pariccheda-naana is only the beginning, it is the first of the three stages of tender insight, taruna vipassana. Not yet principal insight, maha-vipassana ñaa.na. But, it is the beginning of direct understanding. A sure and good beginning. This stage cannot be foregone. --------------- T: In the Thai suttas there is one common word that appears very often, it is "kamnod-roo". Have you seen it too? > Does it mean sati-sampajanna, or anupassana, or what else? I think > the literal meaning of kamnod-roo is "focusing to know". --------------- N: I often heard it. Kh sujin said that if one does not understand what satipatthana is one is not able to know what it means. People take it for focussing, but this is confusing. I think sati-sampajanna is closer to the meaning. One could translate it by : to realize, indicating that it is not theoretical knowledge. --------------- T: In the Thai > version of MN 149 it says that the Bhikkhu must "kamnod-roo" the five > clinging aggregates with great(abhi) wisdom(panna), .... Thanissaro Bhikkhu translated kamnod- roo as "comprehend", and abhi-panna as "direct knowledge". But I feel the deep meaning is missing. ----------- N: We can use different words so long as we understand that it is not theoretical knowledge and not mere focussing. ------------- T: N: Perhaps we could discuss more about characteristics. > > T: Please do that and I will be delighted. --------------- N: I think when the occasion arises? Nina. 44645 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= nilovg Hi Sarah, your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific case. These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I have doubts about. We would like to help others not to get into difficult situations, so I think I would avoid these things. The same with the bomb, I really doubt this. But of course averybody has to judge himself what he will do. All such situations seem rather speculative. Nina. op 21-04-2005 12:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > If we sell alcohol or pets in a store, rent out the premises or assist a > surgeon in the case above, usually there’s no intention to make anyone > intoxicated, to take life or to encourage any illegal or disreputable > practices in the rented out premise. We don’t know the intentions or > accumulations of the customers. 44646 From: simon ralfe Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:12am Subject: Simon sralfe Hi everyone As requested here's a little about myself. I'm a GP , and have been involved with buddhism for 4 years, starting after a trip to India and Nepal. I have had the good fortune to meet many sangha, and regularly visit Chithurst , West Sussex. And I'm keen to learn from whatever source is available! Thanks Simon. 44647 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken H, You said, "We still disagree on the meaning of the Kalama Sutta. You believe that rejecting the Buddha's teaching can sometimes be a good (kusala) thing to do. I won't try to change your mind because I don't think it matters much: It is only when we misunderstand some part of the teaching that we are ever likely to reject it. So our emphasis should be on right understanding." ............................................................ Good point, about Right Understanding. But keep in mind that it does not mean changing the meaning of something to make it fit, or to deny that it does not fit, a given situation. ************************************** C: > > > What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" ------------------------------------------ KH: > > At any point in time, including now, there are really only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. > > ................................. To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like generosity. ****************************************** C: > The only one I recognize is dosa, i.e., suffering. ----------------------------- Ken: We should both make an effort to learn more Abhidhamma. Then, when we read the suttas, we will always know that the Buddha was talking about the five khandhas (dhammas that arise in a single moment and then disappear forever). Otherwise, we will think concepts (people, places and stories) are real - and dhammas are not real. As I said in a previous post, the Abhidhamma might seem dry and impersonal but that is, after all, the flavour of anatta. So we are making progress. :-) ................................................ Then please define/explain, in plan English, saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and anatta. Charles 44648 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sunnaloka Hi Sarah and everyone, Your words are thoughtful and show that you have saturated mind and heart with the four immeasurable attitudes. ------------------------------ S: I don?t see how your views expressed to Lisa, for example, that ?we are ?in? our innate consciousness all the time......etc? and references to ?our innate natural state....which is unconditioned (asankhata)? either conform with the uprooting of any idea of self or can be shown to be valid even just looking at the suttas. And then there are your comments to Matheesha about ?no supramundane jhana? etc to discuss further. So much scope for interesting dialogue.....:-/ -------------------------------- I really don’t know how productive it would be for me to present sunnatavada and vinnanavada views in a forum based on the orthodox abhidhamma paradigm, but I have heard from a few readers/members of DSG in the last couple of days who are nondualists of one type or another, and so we can take a stab at how nondual sunnatavada and vinnanavada is represented in the Sutta Pitaka, and how sunnatavada and vinnanavada also serve as a useful and valid basis for unravelling and thereby understanding statements of profound panna made by the Kammatthana Thai and Western forest teachers, which clearly cannot be explained/understood using the traditional Theravadin commentarial abhidhamma perspective. Regarding the Kammatthana 'view' , it thoroughly blew my mind when I started reading the venerable teachers such as Ajahn Chah and the others, that these forest monks were making statements that have more to do with early Zen and Mahamudra nondualism than with anything ever stated in the Theravadin abhidhamma tradition. But it’s not surprising really, because Khammatthana, Zen, and Mahamudra are all *practice* traditions, and the resultant panna of practice, if it is to be universally valid, should not depend upon time, culture, or what historical school one belongs to. And so after reading the Khammatthana Ajahns, I thought it would be fruitful to see if their panna can be traced to the Sutta Pitaka -- and lo -- it’s all there. Unsurprisingly though, it has either been thoroughly missed or completely misunderstood by the abhidhamma academia. And so I’m willing to discuss some of these notions on DSG -- to see where it leads more than to attempt to refute or debate abhidhammikas -- because such conflicting debate can easily become counterproductive. With all due respect, even attempting such dialogue with abhidhammikas goes against the advise of the nondual traditions. As a Zen proverb has it: "Don’t discuss poetry with a nonpoet." But first of all I’m going away for a few days to visit my sister. Will check in when I return. S: p.s whereabouts in Canada are you? ------------------------ Conditioned aggregates presently abide in Lethbridge Alberta (pop. ~70,000) -- about a two hour drive south of Calgary or about an hour drive north of Montana (USA) border. Unconditioned citta/vinnana is forever and always nonabiding -- transcends temporal duration (time) and relative location (space) ;-) Metta, Geoff 44649 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sunnaloka Hi Joop, Good to hear from you. You perceptively ask: J: What interests me most, is how do you see the relation of the content of your side with the 'emptiness' of Madhyamaka (Nagarjuna) ? In your 'notes' you say you are not endorsing his "The life-process has no thing that distinguishes it from freedom. Freedom has no thing that distinguishes it from the life-process" (MMK XXV-19) But is that all that can be said of this great Buddhist, one of the few who can bridge the gap between Theravada and Mahayana? ---------------------------------------- Nagarjuna was a great mind and anyone reading my presentations of emptiness/suchness/deathless element, etc., with knowledge of his MMK and 70 Stanzas, will recognize that what I’m saying is completely indebted to him (as I imperfectly understand his view). My comments about the above mentioned verse from MMK has nothing to do with the philosophical validity of the statement, and everything to do with the potentially harmful (i.e. anti-soteriological/anti- liberational) consequences of misunderstanding Nagarjuna and thereby misunderstanding that statement. Misunderstanding of that statement, which results in the convoluted notion that he’s asserting that samsara is nirvana, has -- and is to this day -- being used to justify all deviate behaviors of sexual promiscuity, drug and alcohol abuse, etc., which are themselves questionable interpretations of the ‘left-hand path’ upayas of anuttarayoga tantra. I would suggest that Nagarjuna as a devout Buddhist monk would never have endorsed such clearly akusala activities. (This is evident in the Ratnavali if this is indeed his work.) And so I would say that no, he can’t be judged on the basis of that one statement, but given the consequences of that statement -- consequences Nagarjuna probably could never have imagined -- I in good conscience can’t support that statement. But over and above that, the reason that I state that my discussion isn’t ‘Mahayana’ per say, is because it is clearly rooted in the Pali Sutta Pitaka, with no reference to any Mahayana sutras or shastras. ----------------------------- J: David Kalupahana said about this statement: "This statement of Nagarjuna has contributed to a major and wide- spread asertion regarding the uniqueness of Mahayana-philosophy, namely, the ultimate identity of samsara and nirvana. This assertion may appear to be correct, if we are to ignore all that has been said by Nagarjuna regarding the metaphysical doctrines of identity and difference, especially in the chapters dealing with the tathagata (XXII) and the four truths (XXIV). Those who upheld the view that this statement is a assertion of the identity of samsara and nirvana do not seem to have paused one moment to reflect on the question regarding the nature of the identity they were implying; nor have they attempted to place that conception of identity (if there is one) in the historical context." (The Philosophy of the Middle Way, page 366) --------------------------- It’s been a number of years since I read Kalupahana’s books, but I remember being impressed at that time by his understanding of Nagarjuna -- I think I agreed with most everything he said. It’s painfully true however, that Nagarjuna is terse and thereby ambiguous at times -- and it’s just not very easy to wrap one’s head around what, if anything, Nagarjuna would assert. That is -- what would he propose as a path?? (Based solely on the MMK and 70 Stanzas that is.) This is clearly a potential difficulty for all radically fruitional nondual views. I would suggest that he’d have proposed a path very much in line with what is presented in the Pali Sutta Pitaka -- as such path components are even suggested and recommended in the Maha- prajnaparamita Sutra (if one asserts that Nagarjuna was ‘Mahayana’). It’s been my experience among Western Mahayana groups that not placing adequate emphasis on renunciation leads to very questionable progress for practitioners of such path paradigms. This is why I emigrated to the Pali Sutta Pitaka as the foundation for my own practice, and the basis for my discussions of Dhamma. (This also has the ego-deflating effect of marking me as heterodox whether I’m amongst Mahayanists or Theravadins -- they all seem to want to dismiss me as an outsider when I question their dearly cherished ‘belief-sets.’ But my purpose is not simply to be an annoying contrarian, but to attempt to get to the heart of the matter -- which transcends all ‘belief sets.’ Shouldn’t the true Dhamma be transcendent after all?) Anyway Joop, I’m neither ‘Theravada’ nor ‘Mahayana.’ And this I believe is completely in keeping with the essence of Nagarjuna’s dialectical negation -- and as such is my ultimate tribute to that great mind and truly great Buddhist master. Metta, Geoff 44650 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Review of messages # 27710/ Correction - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Other DSG Memebrs - I am grateful to Nina for her careful reading of my review and the error found. N: > Asavas are defilements arising with the akusala citta. Whereas >anusayas, latent tendencies, do not arise with akusala citta, > they are just accumulated tendencies lying dormant in the citta. > They can be eradicated by lokuttara magga-citta. T: 100 thanks to Nina for the correction. I am sorry for the blunder I have made. The corrected "Tep's Comment" to be inserted in the reivew of message #27710 is as follows: Tep's comment [corrected for anusaya]: ---------------------------------------------------------- The eradication of wrong view through accumulation of right view (abandoned by "seeing") is one of the seven abandonments given in MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta: "There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing". Please note that abandoning fermentation by "restraining" is the use of indriya-samvara-sila that has been discussed by Sarah. The abandoning of fermentation by "destroying" means wiping out akusala vitakka (the result is samma-sankappa). The abandoning of fermentation by developing is accomplished by developing the seven factors of Awakening. All the seven abandonments are solidly based on yonisomanasikara (wise attention). This sutta is quite good. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002-tb0.html --------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > the sutta is very good, but just a remark re the translation. > This is about the abandoning of the asavas (fermentations or intoxicants), > not the latent tendencies. > Asavas are defilements arising with the akusala citta. Whereas anusayas, > latent tendencies, do not arise with akusala citta, they are just > accumulated tendencies lying dormant in the citta. They can be eradicated by > lokuttara magga-citta. > Nina. > > op 21-04-2005 06:38 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta: "There are fermentations to be abandoned > > by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be > > abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to > > be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, > > and those to be abandoned by developing". > > > > Please note that abandoning anusayas by "restraining" is the use of > > indriya-samvara-sila that has been discussed by Sarah. 44651 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James > James: Actually, in this group there is a real need to discuss her > approach because it has a strong influence on the thinking of several > members. (snip) still she isn't here to clarify any points I might > make. It is like discussing a phantom. We could discuss Abhidhamma. I know you've said that other Abhidhamma teachers allow room for more control, and I know there is some controversy about Kh Sujin's approach in some specific areas, but my interest is more in Abhidhamma (and the other parts of the tiptitaka (sp?) of course rather than Kh Sujin in particular. She's just a friend who has the right conditions for understanding Abhidhamma and an ability to get it across, as is Nina and other folks. I listen to the tapes a lot - there are points I don't get but I almost always let them go. The point is not to understand and agree with everything - the point is to cultivate detachment and eradicate defilments. We don't need to understand everything or agree with everything or decide that everything fits right in order to do that. I think sometimes inconsistencies help rather than hurt - they keep us from being too cozy and complacent in our understanding. For example, I gather from a discussion I listened to recently that there is a difference between Kh Sujin's approach to kamma and that of other teachers. She teaches that only kamma pattha creates vipaka, while other teachers (perhaps the majority?) teach that akusala of all degrees create vipaka. I suppose this should cause me to fret to figue out who is right, but it doesn't. Maybe it shouldm but it doesn't. I think not knowing these things helps us to understanding that knowing is anatta too. I haven't explained that well. But I think if you let go of the points that bug you, you can find aspects of Abhidhamma that will be helfpul. But as I've said before, Abhidhamma isn't of interest to everyone. It depends on this and that whether it will be helpful for us. So there is no need to push it. I'm still hoping James will have a Road to Damascus moment and become a fellow devotee, and I still have this feeling it might happen... :) >> But, and this is very important, don't let her make you second- guess > yourself: If it looks like B.S. and it smells like B.S., then it > probably is B.S., no matter how many people tell you it isn't. Well, it's not so much smelling like bs but it is believing things for which there is not yet any possibility of confirming through our own experience. Take bhavanga cittas, for example. I have talked about this before, but I think that one reason westerners are uisually unable to appreciate Abhidhamma is that we simply must accept teachings as given - there is no way for us to confirm that there are 17 cittas during the rise and fall of every rupa, or whatever, and this bugs people. They take "rely on yourself" to mean that everything must be confirmed through experience. I think there is no way to fully benefit from Abhidhamma (and therefore the Buddha's teaching in general, in my opinion) if we insist on understanding everything before we believe in it. There is a middle way there, of course. If I wasn't experiencing some moments of real understanding of and benefits from Abhidhamma by now, it would be foolish to keep believing in the not-yet-understandable. > > Phil: I think I'm just letting go of stories far momre often, because > of these small reminders from Dhamma friends. > > James: That is great; that is the power of mindfulness. However, > unfortunately, without a more purposeful practice, you probably won't > advance very far. You will be continually slipping back into > suffering and ignorance. Now you are on a high, but it probably won't > last very long. I hear you. I think there is a purposeful practice, but there isn't clinging to results. The purpose is the gradual eradication of defilements. We agree there. I don't practice formal seated meditation, but from the moment I get up until I go to sleep there are many moments of reflection during the day. It is going too far to say my whole day is a kind of meditation, maybe, but I will - my whole day is a kind of meditation! Actually, I am still failing to concentrate on my writeng because of this all consuming interest in Dhamma. If it's a high, it sure is a powerful drug because it has been going on since I first started reading Abhidhamma in Daily Life that night, and that's about ...hmmm 14 months ago I guess. But that's just a wink of an eye, of course. > > Phil: I know the Buddha told people to be self-reliant, but if he knew > Westerners were going to be in his audience he might have worded it > differently! > > James: This is pure conjecture which isn't very helpful. You're right. > Trust the Buddha's words! The Buddhadhamma is our refuge. But I still feel that taking suttas too literally will lead to misunderstanding. Why do I think so? Let me answer later, when we get to the Satipatthana Sutta. It will be more conjecture, probably. I'll continue later, James. Thanks for lending an ear. Could I ask you to hold your response until my next post? Thanks. Metta, Phil 44652 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ Striving buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Phil, Kel, Sarah, Ken O and interested DSG members) - I think there is only one point remaining for further discussion, but it is a tough one to get across! Perhaps, one day one of us may find a more effective way to resolve this communication problem. T: By not thinking about the end result, how can there be a review of > progress? Without reviewing of progress, how can there be > right effort to improve the practice? ------------- N: If we are only concerned with this moment now, developing understanding of this moment, there is no thinking of progress. This is better, thinking is only thinking. We should not think of the past, and the future has not come yet, there is only the present moment. T: Whenever I'm talking about "progress reviewing", it means the feedback evaluation to be done periodically after meditation (during the meditation there is no thinking of progress) so that we know where we are on the path of practice. Therefore, such progress reviewing would not interfere with the "present moment" of the meditation here & now-- more like the off-line activities at a computer terminal are separate from the on-line activities . N: < T: This way we will be reducing lobha, dosa and moha every day while we are advancing more rapidly toward the goal!> I think that wrong view has to be abandoned first. Lobha, dosa and moha have to be realized as non-self, otherwise they cannot be reduced. I think the dhamma learning process cannot be rapid. We have deeply rooted latent tendencies. T: I can't understand why such progress review has to be that bad. If it is that bad, why do Ariyas review their path and fruition, according to the Visuddhimagga? I know I am not an Ariya, but the same procedure is useful regardless. " After re-entry into life continuum, adverting, etc., arise again in the same way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the arising of these he reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he reviews the defilements abandoned, he reviews the defilements still remaining, and he reviews nibbana." VM XXII, 19 (page 699). "He reviews the path in this way, 'So this is the path I have come by'. Next he reviews the fruition after that in this way, 'This is the blessing I have obtained. Next he reviews the defilements that have been abandoned. ... ..." VM XXII, 20. Thank you for your patience, Nina. Respectfully and sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > I just answer this part of your message. > op 19-04-2005 08:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > 44653 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. philofillet Hi Tep and all > Phil always has keen Dhamma observations. You're too kind. I've been appreciating the dilegent, organized way in which you post. Unfortunately, since I haven't set up our printer yet and reading from this monitor hurts my weak eyes, I haven't been following your threads thoroughly. I look forward to printing them out so I can read them. (in passing, Sarah, that goes for your "musings" as well.) > > Phil: In any case, I have been aware of not wanting to lean too cozily > on "being mindful of present realities" > Tep: It is way beyond me too. Phil: It is something we aim for, without clinging to expectations about if and when it will happen. For now, the intellectual understanding is very helpful. And who knows - there may be moments of something. Our understanding isn't developed enough to know just what is going on. But we are pointed by our faith in the Buddha's teaching in the right direction. The intellectual understanding is good > for intellectual people, but it does not have strength (bala); so it is like a > drop of water falling onto a hot pan -- it is not enough to cool down the > pan. It will cool the pan if many drops are applied repeatedly. Now, if > the hot pan is constantly heated (it is kept on fire) there is no way the > pan may be cooled at all. The heat here is analogous to the > defilements, and to be "cooled" is analogous to "liberating". That's a good analogy, Tep. I sometimes think that people who believe in intentionally applying mindfulness as constantly as possible can come to believe that they have extinguished the fire (or made real progress in extinguishing it) when in fact the fire is just lying low, waiting for the right moment and right conditions to burst up. > > Khun Sujin said: > > > > We read in order to understand this moment. > > We listen in order to understand this moment. > > We consider in order to understand this moment. > > When one is aware and there is no progress, > one can know why: there is not enough understanding > > of the details of the Dhamma. > > Tep: Beautifully said! Does she also see the importance of > occasionally stepping away from the present-moment understanding > in order to review the whole process of consciousness so far, and > assess the accomplishment with respect to what remains to be done? This is an interesting point. I have been meaning to ask about anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. This is one of the things I get mixed signals from in Kh Sujin and Nina's teahcing. There are times Kh Sujin says that we shouldn't even expect to figure out if a citta that has fallen away is kusala or akusala, and other times when I read that knowing our anusayas is very important. If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth can we know our anusayas? I will just write that now and ask it in a separate thread at some point. BTW, as I said in a post to James, these "mixed signals" are not a point of concern for me. They are helpful, actually. I like not getting settled into easy pseudo- understanding. I think there are suttas which point at stepping back and assessing where we are at. The one about finding a blemish, or the one about asking ourselves if there is something unabandoned that would send us to a bad destination if we were to die tonight, for example. Sometimes I think those are suttas that can only be of benefit to people of advanced insight, but I am not sure about that, by any means. > " After re-entry into life continuum, adverting, etc., arise again in the > same way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the > arising of these he reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he rviews > the defilements abandoned, he reviews the defilements still remaining, > and he reviews nibbana." VM XXII, 19 (page 699). > > Reviewing and assessment of progress is necessary to move from > one ariya level to the next one higher. So it seems reasonable that it > should be useful for non-ariya puggalas as well? See above. I'm just not sure about that. Also worth noting that English translations really can be misleading. We think "review" is something that can be done easily, because of our conventional understanding of that word, but what did the Buddha really mean by "review." Perhaps you can gain a deeper understanding through the Thai, perhaps not, or perhaps you have Pali. I think of the sutta in which Bhikkhu Bodhi uses "revulsion" for the bhikkhus important progress point (revusion>dispassion>liberation, I think, re the khandas etc.) but from his note we learn that the revulsion is something much more refined and beyond-us-for-now than we would think from a first reading. Metta, Phil 44654 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. buddhistmedi... Hi Phil - I truly appreciate your careful and thoughtful writing about those tough points that are beyond our ability to give definite answers. Yet, you have tried. So I thank you very much. Phil: I sometimes think that people who > believe in intentionally applying mindfulness as constantly as > possible can come to believe that they have extinguished the fire > (or made real progress in extinguishing it) when in fact the fire is > just lying low, waiting for the right moment and right conditions to > burst up. > Tep: Yes, anusayas can be very tricky. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep and all > > > Phil always has keen Dhamma observations. > 44655 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:35pm Subject: How can we know our anusayas (accumulations)? philofillet Hello Nina, and all I brought up this point in a post to Tep, and it is important, so I should ask it properly. I've been throwing out a lot of questions but I'm going back to work today, so will (probably) quiet down! Phil: (from other thread) This is an interesting point. I have been meaning to ask about anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. This is one of the things I get mixed signals from in Kh Sujin and Nina's teahcing. There are times Kh Sujin says that we shouldn't even expect to figure out if a citta that has fallen away is kusala or akusala, and other times when I read that knowing our anusayas is very important. If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth can we know our anusayas? I will just write that now and ask it in a separate thread at some point. Phil (con't) Nina, in Lodewijk's speech, which I really enjoy, he emphasizes knowing anusayas, and says that this is "basic." I wonder if by basic he means fundamental and important or "basic" as in fairly easy to do. Of course it most be the former. Nothing of importance is easy to do in Dhamma. Yesterday I heard Kh Sujin say "we cannot know the anusayas of others" implying that we can know our own. And yet, isn't it all thinking and speculation for us now when we don't even properly know nama from rupa? Is knowing our anusayas the same as tht sutta in which the Buddha encourages us to consider if there is something that has not been abandoned which will lead to a bad destination if we were to die tonight? Thanks in advance for any feedback, Nina and all, and thanks Nina for your feedback to my other two questions. Metta, Phil 44656 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:23pm Subject: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) sukinderpal Hi Sarah, James and all (*Chris), > Why not address your points/queeries to her here and Sukin or Betty can > read them out to here when they meet (usually weekly), record her > comments/answers (I believe Sukin has a recorder) and transcribe back (or > summarise if that's a problem) for you and the rest of us to see? You > could send a few each week. Brief and polite would probably be more likely > to elicit responses:-). Of course, the turn around time would be a little > slow, but it is for some of our replies anyway. I will be happy to do what I can, though I don't have a recorder and never take notes. I can however ask Betty and Matt R. ;-) to help. I agree with James about the limitations of any effectiveness in communication. Even though I had thought that I would play the devil's advocate, I also can see that I can't get away from my own opinions and the tendency to jump in and express them. Still I think it would be interesting, so this offer is open to all interested. We will see what happens. In any case it will still be Dhamma and there would still be good discussions with others on the list, don't you think? > p.s [Sukin, perhaps you could confirm you'd be happy to help with this. We > might get to see a little more of your posts at the same time:-)). My time for the computer is now less than before. An occasional post is fine, but the fear is in being involved in ongoing threads, esp. since I do tend to be long winded. :-( * Btw, Bundit, who recently joined DSG contacted me on the phone. We then met briefly at the foundation last Saturday. Apparently he, his sister and some friends have been listening to K. Sujin for sometime. However he can come to the foundation on Saturdays only now when Schools are closed, (he is still studying and is quite young). Metta, Sukinder 44657 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:39pm Subject: Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Ken O, Htoo, Robert K, Ven Dhammanando, Chris, Azita & All, > > (This series of `Musings?Eare based on recent discussions in Bangkok with > A.Sujin) > > Various scenarios were mentioned such as selling or > purchasing alcohol, renting a premise to those engaged in questionable > practices, assisting in an operating theatre when abortions are performed > and so on. As both the verse above and the commentaries to the Va.nijjaa > Sutta indicate (as just quoted*), it is the `evil intention?Ethat is > indicative of the wrong livelihood, not necessarily the actions observed. > > For example, the trading in flesh which is avoided by an upasaka ("o> If we sell alcohol or pets in a store, rent out the premises or assist a > surgeon in the case above, usually there's no intention to make anyone > intoxicated, to take life or to encourage any illegal or disreputable > practices in the rented out premise. We don't know the intentions or > accumulations of the customers. > >====================== Dear Sarah, Selling alcohol seems to be involved with wrong liveihood to me, although I can see if someone was a cashier in a supermarket where alcohol was only a minor product line that it might be similar to the example from the Dhammapada. As for being a nurse assisting a doctor in abortion operations, I think this must be akusala. The woman in the sutta gave her husband arrows it is true. But she wasn't passing him arrows while he was actually shooting the animals. Same with your example about the bomber, how can it not be not akusala cetana to release a bomb. It is true you can't be sure anyone was killed but if they were then their is akusala kammapatha. The Vinaya is very good on details when monks wondered if the had done wrong. Once a monk saw a man who was going to be executed and had pity on him. So he went to the executioner (an axeman) and asked him to make it fast so there would be minimal pain. The executioner took extra care to make his swing true and strong and killed the man that little bit fatser than usual. The monk commited parajika - just for those words- and was expelled from the order. We can't escape kamma merely by thinking we don't really support a doctors killing - not while we are directly assisting him. RobertK 44658 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= kenhowardau Dear Nina (and Suan), ---------------------------- N: > Sarah, your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific case. These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I have doubts about. We would like to help others not to get into difficult situations, so I think I would avoid these things. The same with the bomb, I really doubt this. But of course everybody has to judge himself what he will do. All such situations seem rather speculative. ----------------- Apart from your point about it being "speculative," I don't understand the reasons for your concern. I assume it was for similar reasons that Suan once cautioned me against taking "personlessness" too far. I am curious to know what that means to an Abhidhammika, and I wish Suan had taken the opportunity (when I asked him) to expand on his warning. Are you concerned that weak-minded people are going to use anatta as an excuse to do evil? Is it possible that someone might kill or steal (etc.) because they got the impression from DSG that it was OK to do so? That might be a valid concern, I don't know, but it is also important to understand anatta as deeply as we can. If the thought occurs, "Anatta negates akusala kamma," then we should simply think again. :-) If we are of the opinion that anatta can be taken too far - that sometimes it is wrong to realise there are only dhammas (no controlling self) - then, it seems to me, panna will be reluctant (or hesitant) to take the step from pariyatti to patipatti. I am assuming you would agree with that, so I am still curious to know where your reservations fit in with the Abhidhamma. Ken H 44659 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:19am Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. buddhatrue Hi Phil, I won't respond to your other post until later, as requested, but you wrote something in this post to Tep which is important. You wrote: Phil: I sometimes think that people who believe in intentionally applying mindfulness as constantly as possible can come to believe that they have extinguished the fire (or made real progress in extinguishing it) when in fact the fire is just lying low, waiting for the right moment and right conditions to burst up. James: The Buddha taught that people should CONSTANTLY practice mindfulness in order to win liberation from samsara. There is no other way! To not practice mindfulness means to be unaware of one's thoughts and actions, to act impulsively without regard for the consequences- to allow the mind to be consumed by greed, hatred, and ignorance. These things are not acceptable for even a moment. Mindfulness isn't so much a specific practice as it is an attitude: the attitude that one must, and can, watch guard over thoughts and actions. As the Buddha said in the Dhammapada: The bhikkhu liking heedfulness Seeing fear in heedlessness Advances as a conflagration Burning fetters great and small How effective the mindfulness is on eliminating the fetters depends on how strongly and diligently it is applied. If there are "small fires still burning" as you describe them, then the mindfulness hasn't been complete or strong enough (for example: the person doesn't allow thoughts to chase after some impulses, but somehow allows others). It is not easy to be mindful to this extent as a householder without a wise teacher, but I wouldn't say it is impossible. Metta, James Ps. As a suggestion, during your free moments, rather than reading dhamma reminders in your notebook, why don't you contemplate the 32 parts of the body as detailed in the Satipatthana Sutta? I bet you would find a marked improvement in the strength of your mindfulness. 44660 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Asankhata foamflowers Asankhata? The Unconditioned (Nibbana)Beyond conceptual thought? The subsiding of suffering--dukkhavupasama--but not total "unbinding." Asankhata-dhatu=nibbana. This is a new word for me "Asankhata" and I only have a few references in my notes. Yavata: (page 555) ete sattha [read settha] lokasmin yad idam arahanto "as far as the abodes of beings, as far as heaven, these are the highest, these are the best, I mean the Arahants." S iii.84. yavata dhamma sankhata va asankhata va virago... aggam akkhayati, yad--idan mada--nimmadano... A ii.34=It 88; "of all the things definite or indefinite: passionlessness deserves the highest praise, I mean the disintoxication of pride etc." The 2. Sankhata: (page 664) Vin ii.284; It 37, 88; J ii.38; Nett 14; Dhs 1085; DhsA 47. As nt. that which is produced from a cause, i. e. the sankharas S i.112; A i.83, 152; Nett 22. asankhata not put together, not proceeding from a cause Dhs 983 (so read for sankhata), 1086; Ep. of nibbana "the Unconditioned" (& therefore unproductive of further life) A i.152; S iv.359 sq.; Kvu 317 sq.; Pv All three dimensions of the Abhidhamma -- the philosophical, the psychological, and the ethical -- derive their final justification from the cornerstone of the Buddha's teaching, the program of liberation announced by the Four Noble Truths. The ontological survey of dhammas stems from the Buddha's injunction that the noble truth of suffering, identified with the world of conditioned phenomena as a whole, must be fully understood (pariññeyya). The prominence of mental defilements and requisites of enlightenment in its schemes of categories, indicative of its psychological and ethical concerns, connects the Abhidhamma to the second and fourth noble truths, the origin of suffering and the way leading to its end. And the entire taxonomy of dhammas elaborated by the system reaches its consummation in the "unconditioned element" (asankhata dhatu), which is Nibbana, the third noble truth, that of the cessation of suffering. http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html Nina and Sarah, I understand now what this course of analysis is for and I will promise to follow the rules here as best I can with my limited abilities. With Metta, Lisa 44661 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Dear Nina (and Suan), ---------------------------- N: > Sarah, your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific case.These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I have doubts about. We would like to help others not to get into difficult situations, so I think I would avoid these things. The same with the bomb, I really doubt this. But of course everybody has to judge himself what he will do. All such situations seem rather speculative. ----------------- Ken H: Apart from your point about it being "speculative," I don't understand the reasons for your concern. I assume it was for similar reasons that Suan once cautioned me against taking "personlessness" too far. I am curious to know what that means to an Abhidhammika, and I wish Suan had taken the opportunity (when I asked him) to expand on his warning. Are you concerned that weak-minded people are going to use anatta as an excuse to do evil? ... snip ... snip ...where your reservations fit in with the Abhidhamma. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken H, Nina and All, May I butt in between your conversation. Just to tell a story. I do not think this is samphappalaapa or non- sense-tale-bearing. There was a monastry and there were many bhikkhus doing pariyatti and patipatti and they were advanced. They had a lay assistant. As he always heard Dhamma from bhikkhus he knew almost everything. I did know that killing is not good deed. One day, he want to eat frog but he did not want to kill. There was a boiling water pot over the hand-made fire-place. He put a flat stick across the pot. He put some frogs on a side of the stick. He said, 'O! My dear frogs. May you all be able to safely cross this hot boiling water pot.' 'He recited, 'Sabbe satta sukhiattaanam pariharantu' 'May all beings be healthy and wealthy'. Some fron dropped in the pot. He developed 'karuna' and said, 'May you be free from suffering'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Exceptions are almost always for those who are well-perfected. Once a professional killer appointed by a king was forced to retire as he could not kill the prisoned people with a single cut with axe. As he retired, he had chances to do kusala. He invited a bhikkhu (Venerable Moggallana ) and offered food at home. When Dhamma was preached, he could not listen fully. Because he remembered many of his killing prisoned evil people. Venerable knew that he could not take up the message. So asked what the retired killer was thinking while preaching Dhamma. Just said he killed thousands of people. Venerable asked, 'Did you kill because of your will or someone else?' The killer was releived and answered 'the king'. And he was then able to listen Dhamma and at the end of preaching Dhamma, he became a sotapanna. 44662 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Dear Ken O, Htoo, Robert K, Ven Dhammanando, Chris, Azita & All, Dear Sarah, Selling alcohol seems to be involved with wrong liveihood to me, > although I can see if someone was a cashier in a supermarket where > alcohol was only a minor product line that it might be similar to > the example from the Dhammapada. > As for being a nurse assisting a doctor in abortion operations, I > think this must be akusala. The woman in the sutta gave her husband > arrows it is true. But she wasn't passing him arrows while he was > actually shooting the animals. Same with your example about the > bomber, how can it not be not akusala cetana to release a bomb. It > is true you can't be sure anyone was killed but if they were then > their is akusala kammapatha. > The Vinaya is very good on details when monks wondered if the had > done wrong. Once a monk saw a man who was going to be executed and > had pity on him. So he went to the executioner (an axeman) and asked > him to make it fast so there would be minimal pain. The executioner > took extra care to make his swing true and strong and killed the man > that little bit fatser than usual. The monk commited parajika - just > for those words- and was expelled from the order. > We can't escape kamma merely by thinking we don't really support a > doctors killing - not while we are directly assisting him. RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Sarah and All, Vinayas are many and they are described in detail. Even in the presence of The Buddha, there were small-battles between bhikkhus because of vinayas. The Buddha was a judge. Once the battle was not settled down and even The Buddha left both parties for 3 months. The Buddha went to a forest and lived for 3 months in seclusion without any human bhikkhu assistant while an elephant approached The Buddha and the elephant assisted The Buddha. After 3 months, disciples became to realize that they were left by The Buddha and both parties met each other and tried to settle down the problems and they followed The Buddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I was still considering 'why must akusala citta not have akusala kamma if it is not kamma patha'. 44663 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... [I haven’t had an internet connection all day, so I wrote this off-line earlier, before reading the others in the thread]. Dear Nina, (KenO, Azita & All) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific > case. > These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I > have > doubts about. > We would like to help others not to get into difficult situations, so I > think I would avoid these things. The same with the bomb, I really doubt > this. > But of course averybody has to judge himself what he will do. All such > situations seem rather speculative. .... S: Thanks for your feedback. As I mentioned, I expect all the Musings series to be controversial. For my part these days, I can’t get enough ‘cold showers’ or ‘bitter medicine’. As Ken H often says, I don’t think we can be too extreme when it comes to anatta. I was stressing that it is the intention that counts. Yes, ‘the situations seem speculative’ and this was exactly the point of my post – we draw speculative conclusions about this or that situation, completely forgetting about the cittas involved. We think we would avoid this or that occasion, but as we know, conditions rule and as I said, purification of sila depends on understanding, not on reciting precepts and so on. The bomb example which I’d mentioned before was from the earlier trip to India that you and Jon were on. When I listened to the recording, I was so impressed and copied down the words which I summarised. We’re used to seeing world perspectives from social and political angles and it takes courage to really be confident that ‘life exists in a moment’ and that the same acts can be performed with different kusala and akusala cittas, rather than thinking all the time about the situation. The other examples were Ken O’s which I raised this time (eg selling alcohol in a store) and Vince’s (renting the premise and the questionable activities etc). K.Sujin’s response to these and any others was ‘no problem’. ‘As long as it’s not illegal’. And then she added comments about how our intention is not for someone to be intoxicated and so on and we don’t know what the customers intend when they buy the goods or rent the premises. ‘It’s not your intention’, K.Sujin stressed. (You & Lodewijk may wish to discuss this topic with her further in India.) Azita mentioned that as a nurse in her hospital, sometimes she is assigned to work in the operating theatre when abortions are performed. Again, she has no intention to harm of course. She can add more perhaps. It’s like the hunter’s wife who is instructed to assist her husband, I think. You mentioned that ‘these people were ripe to become sotapannas’, but the wife was already a sotapanna and according to the story, fell in love with the hunter and willingly followed his instructions. This is why K.Sujin refers to this story. The wife never had any intentions to kill or harm, unlike her husband and sons who were ready to kill even the Buddha. It’s like if you purchase the wine for Lodewijk or even pour out his glass of wine at his request, you have no intention for him to become intoxicated and you’re not intending to encourage him to drink more either. So when there’s no harmful intention, there’s no breach of sila. The point always comes back to the understanding of namas and rupas now rather than judging situations and circumstances. When we set limits or think there cannot be understanding at this or that time and if we have doubs about the usefulness of sati right now of realities, as we just read in ‘Cetasikas’, there cannot be right effort then. And as you wrote so clearly in a post just now: ‘We should not think of the past, and the future has not come yet, there is only the present moment.....The practice is done with panna, and this is accompanied by right effort already....’ Also, as you quoted we are always absorbed in long, long stories, but really they are nothing at all. .’ We read (listen etc) to understand this moment...’. And so in these examples too, when we think so much about different situations, we’re just living in the world of our thinking without any awareness of seeing and so on. It is such awareness that lets go of the stories and clinging to particular circumstances. As Ken O put it so succinctly, ‘When there is understanding in the present moment, there will be restraint from all kinds of akusala.’ Metta, Sarah p.s All, there's a typo of course in the subject heading - it should read 'Hunter'. ====== 44664 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread (335) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread is now going on with kamma. There are 4 sets of 4 kammas or catu-catukka kamma. When we talk on kamma, there are many many points to discuss. As the subject is a deeper one, it is not that easy to explore all about kamma. Only The Buddha knows all about kamma. When in a forest, The Buddha picked up a handful of fallen leaves and said to his disciple monks that what He preached was like a fist-ful of fallen leaves in His hand, while what He knew was like all the leaves in the whole forest. While a handful of Dhamma does help to reach nibbana, we all do not need to bother with understanding of everything, which is completely impossible. There are 4 types of kamma. These types are just for classification and this depends on what these kamma do. Kamma do generate their results at a suitable time when there are all the conditions that fulfil the necessary things. Depending on what these kamma give rise as their effect there are 4 kinds of kamma. These 4 kamma are 1. janaka ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka ( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44665 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Dear RobertK, Azita & All Thanks for your well - considered comments too. When I mentioned KenO’s example, K.Sujin didn’t ask whether alcohol would be a minor or major product, she just stressed that it was no problem if there was no intention to harm. For the nurse, I’ll leave this to Azita to add more if she wishes. I didn’t say she was passing the instruments for the operation, and kept this open, just as in the story about the hunter’s wife. But even if she were at the doctor’s orders, I’m not sure there’d need to be any intention to kill at such times. We can only speculate, I think. Cittas are very intricate – one may be day-dreaming or developing awareness then and there. For the bomber, if there is no intention to kill, how can it be akusala kamma patha? As I mentioned, ‘there may not be any intention to kill people, but one may just have been given the order’. Thanks for the Vinaya story. Presumably there was a) a definite intention to aid/encourage the executioner to bring about death and b) it was a definite breach of the Vinaya rules. (Do you have a reference btw?). From the Patimokkha: 'If any bhikkhu should *intentionally* deprive a living being of life, there is an offence entailing expiation.' As background to this rule, there is the story of the bhikkhu who shot crows and admitted it was intentional to kill them. 'Intentionally' is defined as 'knowingly, consciously, deliberately'. "There is no offence if it is unintentional; if he is not thinking; if he does not know; *if he is not meaning death*; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." Suttabibhanga, Expiation (Paacittiya 61). Metta, Sarah ========== 44666 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 Â?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/22/05 6:33:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > For the bomber, if there is no intention to kill, how can it be akusala > kamma patha? As I mentioned, ‘there may not be any intention to kill > people, but one may just have been given the order’. > ======================= Sarah, conventional matters are generally mixed. Often, the only conventional choices we are willing to make involve some akusala intention; and in those cases, at the very least we should not attempt to fool ourselves into believing that matters are different from how they actually are. If one goes on a bombing run into an area where there are sentient beings, unless one has no mind, one will certainly know that there is a likelihood of beings being wounded or killed by one's actions, and knowingly going ahead and making the run anyway is akusala kamma. Pretending that is not so only compounds the matter by purposeful self-delusion. If a large rat is in one's home, and one is afraid for one's children or spouse or even oneself, and out of that fear puts out poison or a killing trap and destroys the rodent, there has been some kusala intention to protect one's family and oneself, but there has certainly also been akusala intention as well, and it has been acted upon. The matter is mixed, but to pretend that "nothing wrong" was done is to delude oneself. Harmless trapping and removal was an alternative. (Had it not been an alternative, STILL there would have been a mix of "bad" aliong with the "good", and the "bad" may have been unavoidable if the "good" needed to be achieved, but, still, the akusala aspect is still akusala and should be recognized as such. It so happens that for the last week or so, two large raccoons have set up residence in a crease of the large tree on our front lawn. Many people in the neighborhood are afraid for their small children and pets, and are concerned about their trash cans etc. Nobody has offered to help out, but some have loudly complained to us - as if we invited the raccoons (!). In fact, at times I've seen them sleeping in trees on other properties as well, but they are mostly at our place. So, to maintain peace in the neighborhood, I arranged for a trapper to set a trap and remove the raccoons. It is costing me $395 for this to be done, and no one else has offered to contribute. I agreed to have this done only under the strict agreement by the trapper that the raccoons be harmlessly trapped and then released in the wild, with no harm coming to them. There would be a far cheaper approach that I could have taken - using a killing trap or putting out poisoned food. I refused to do that and refused to hire someone to do that. Now, had I done that, the wily raccoons, who so far have evinced no interest in the food-laden trap, might well have not been killed, just as, conceivably, no one might die as the result of a bombing run. So, would the poison or killing trap actions be okay then? Clearly not. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 44667 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:36am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 174 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== There will be less doubt and more confidence if we listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right person, if we read the scriptures, if we consider what we learnt and test the meaning of it ourselves. We can prove the truth of what we learnt by the application of the Dhamma in daily life. The above-quoted sutta also mentions five “bondages of the heart” which hinder the development of good qualities: * "… Herein a monk is not dispassionate in things sensual; desire, affections, thirsting, distress and craving have not gone from him… Again in body a monk is not dispassionate; he is not dispassionate in the matter of material shapes; having eaten his bellyful he lives given to the pleasure of lying down on back or side, a prey to torpor; or he leads the brahma-life with a view to join some order of devas, with the thought: By virtue of this way of life or practice or austerity or brahma-life I shall become some deva or other. Whatsoever monk …has such an object in view, his mind inclines not to exertion, to application, to perseverance and striving…" * We are infatuated by all the pleasant things of life. At such moments we forget to develop satipaììhåna. We read in the same sutta that in the monk who has abandoned the mental obstructions and the “bondages of the heart”, “growth, not decline, in good states may be looked for.” However, we should realize that not all obstructions can be overcome at once. Even the sotåpanna who has eradicated doubt and who has an unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem is still attached to sense-pleasures. But he has no wrong view, he does not take attachment or any other reality for self. He has developed right understanding of all realities, also of akusala dhammas, by being aware of them when they appear. The sotåpanna cannot deviate from the eightfold Path anymore. Since he has realized the truth that all conditioned realities are impermanent and dukkha, his urgency to be freed from dukkha does not stem from theoretical understanding of the truth of dukkha, but from the direct realization of the truth of dukkha. He has a true sense of urgency which makes him persevere with the development of the eightfold Path. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ Striving nilovg Dear Tep, op 22-04-2005 03:35 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > Whenever I'm talking about "progress reviewing", it means the > feedback evaluation to be done periodically after meditation (during > the meditation there is no thinking of progress) so that we know where > we are on the path of practice. Therefore, such progress reviewing > would not interfere with the "present moment" of the meditation here & > now-- N: Perhaps the problem lies here: after meditation and before meditation. How do we see meditation is the question. Is it not momentary, with the citta arising and passing away? The reviewing after enlightenment is another matter. That always occurs. One has to know what has been realized, nibbaana, and which defielements have been eradicated. There were discussions before about the latter. Sarah explained something about this. However, nobody can prevent citta from thinking: how much progress has been made. Is this thinking kusala or akusala? That is what one has to find out. I think it is extremely difficult to measure progress and it seems to enhance lobha, I think. You also wrote about the right efforts and understandably, people wonder how to keep balance: no over-exertion, no laziness. Tatramajjhattataa performs its function. It keeps the balance. It accompanies each kusala citta. This morning I started to listen to a new MP3 on satipatthana and I like to share little bits at a time. Kh Sujin said very inspiring things about right effort (khwaamphian), about ardour. She explains from the beginning, anapanasati, so this would fit into our thread. Jaran also made some transscripts of these talks before (in U.P.). Besides, as you know, there is the whole study we did with Larry, and some things could be taken out from U.P. to help us with this thread on satipatthana. The subject is always fresh anyway. Always things to learn fortunately! As you said, Phil always has keen Dhamma observations. Let us ask him to give some input to us on characteristics. The first stage of insight is so important. Phil always gives me good thoughts. Nina. 44669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusayas. nilovg Hi Phil, op 22-04-2005 03:38 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I have been meaning to ask about > anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. -------------- N: We know *that* we have them, because they condition the arising of akusala cittas. We have all of them! ----------- Ph: This is one of the things I get mixed signals from in Kh Sujin and Nina's > teaching. ------------ N: Pardon, I do not teach. -------------- Ph: There are times Kh Sujin says that we shouldn't even > expect to figure out if a citta that has fallen away is kusala or > akusala, and other times when I read that knowing our anusayas is > very important. -------------- N: Knowing that we have anusayas is important, it shows us conditions for akusala citta. Anusayas are so stubborn, deeply rooted. That is why we make the same mistakes again and again, as Lodewijk says. ---------------- Ph: If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala > or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth can we > know our anusayas? -------------- N: Right, we notice kusala citta and akusala citta in a coarse way, but we do not know them yet as pure naama, we take them for self. However, we can begin to develop more understanding of them when they occur. Anusayas do not arise, they are latent, lying dormant. But they are strong conditioning factors. Even intellectual understanding of this helps to see, though not yet with insight, that akusala is anatta. That there is no owner of realities, no possessor. ------------ Ph: In a second post:Is knowing our anusayas the same as the sutta in which the Buddha encourages us to consider if there is something that has not been abandoned which will lead to a bad destination if we were to die tonight? ---------- N: The Buddha wanted to cause people to have a sense of urgency here. We should not be neglectful but develop the way leading to the end of defilements. Nina. 44670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= nilovg Hi Howard, This is a good example of equanimity also in the case of siila. We observe siila, even when it means some sacrifice or discomfort. Then there is mental balance, equanimity. As to siila I do not only mean abstaining, for just a moment, but also helping through body and speech. You helped and sacrificed money so that the raccoons are not hurt. I appreciate that. Chirstine had a rat in her house before and was thinking about good ways to resolve the problem. Nina. op 22-04-2005 13:18 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > in > those cases, at the very least we should not attempt to fool ourselves into > believing that matters are different from how they actually are. 44671 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (Geoff & All), --- upasaka@... wrote: > Sarah, conventional matters are generally mixed. Often, the only > conventional choices we are willing to make involve some akusala > intention; and in > those cases, at the very least we should not attempt to fool ourselves > into > believing that matters are different from how they actually are. ... S: I agree with this and you've put it well, Howard. It's true that we fool ourselves all the time and it's important to realise this. All those cheating dhammas again....Thanks for the reminders. You've made some good points and I really liked your account of the raccoons and your kindness in restoring neighbourhood harmony without any harm for the animnals, even at considerable cost. I appreciate this a lot. I don't have time to write more now, but I'm delighted you've joined in the discussion as I've been missing your posts and viewpoints. I hope others also contribute and follow up further on your comments or others any of us have made. Metta, Sarah p.s Geoff, many thanks for your response -I look f/w to discussing more with you, but probably not til next week. Lisa and others too. ======== 44672 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 Â?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/22/05 9:38:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > don't have time to write more now, but I'm delighted you've joined in > the discussion as I've been missing your posts and viewpoints. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Sarah. :-) -------------------------------------- I hope> > others also contribute and follow up further on your comments or others > any of us have made. > ====================== I've been having some computer problems recently, Sarah and have wanted to cut down on list participation anyway with more time spent on (what I call ;-) "practice". Next week we'll be on vacation. We're taking our older son's family (including our granddaughter), who live in Texas, and my younger son & his girlfriend, who live near us, on a trip to Disney World in Florida to celebrate my 65th birthday. It will be a wonderful opportunity to spend a lot of time tog ether. I will be completely incommunicado from Sunday through Friday. BTW, since I will be unable to send my wishes later on, I'll wish Jon right now a very happy birthday (the day after mine) and you also (five days after that)!! I hope you both celebrate well! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44673 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/22/05 9:34:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > You helped and sacrificed money so that the > raccoons are not hurt. > I appreciate that. > ===================== Thanks for the kind words! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44674 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:13am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= jonoabb Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - ... > BTW, since > I will be unable to send my wishes later on, I'll wish Jon right now a > very happy birthday (the day after mine) and you also (five days after > that)!! I hope you both celebrate well! > > With metta, > Howard Many thanks. It's my 60th (making me officially an 'oldie'). And all the best to you for your birthday. Jon PS I too have been having computer problems lately. My apologies to you and others for some unanswered posts (I'm borrowing Sarah's computer for this). 44675 From: nina Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:21am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 153 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 153. Intro: Equanimity, tatramajjhattataa, is a sobhana cetasika that accompanies each sobhana citta. It is also denoted as upekkhaa, but it should not be confused with the kind of upekkhaa that is indifferent feeling. Tatramajjhattataa is sa.khaarakkhandha, the aggregate of formations, whereas indifferent feeling is vedanaakkhandha. ***** Text Vis. : (xxxi) 'Specific neutrality' (tatra-majjhattataa--lit. 'neutrality in regard thereto') is neutrality (majjhattataa) in regard to those states [of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants arisen in association with it]. It has the characteristic of conveying consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly. -------------- N: The Tiika explains that it causes the associated dhammas to proceed in a balanced way, each according to their own functions. It compares equanimity to a king who holds court and sits silently, causing diligent people to perform their own functions in the proceedings of justice. ----------------- Text Vis.: Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess. --------------------- N: The Tiika explains that it conditions the proceeding (of associated dhammas) without sluggishness and without agitation, and thus it inhibits deficiency and excess. --------------------- Text Vis.: or its function is to inhibit partiality. -------------------- N: The Tiika explains that when there is partiality (pakkhapaato), one thinks: Œthis is inferior work, this is more superior work.¹ Impartiality inhibits such partiality. Whatever the object is, equanimity views it with impartiality and conditions the asociated dhammas to perform their own functions with regard to the object. At such a moment there is no aversion towards it, no dislike, nor is there attachment to it. We read in the Co. to the ³Abhidhammattha Sangaha² (T.A. p. 331): ³Equanimity has the characteristic of keeping balance in the face of what is desired and undesired.² ------------------------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly. ********** N: Together with the other sobhana cetasikas, equanimity supports kusala citta. When there is an opportunity for daana, it inhibits partiality: there is no idea of wanting to give to this person but not to that person. There is no expectation of gains and favours. When there is an opportunity for siila one abstains from akusala with equanimity. One does not want to harm or hurt others, even when it is hard to abstain from akusala and one has to endure some discomfort. One sees the benefit of kusala and has confidence in it and one does not think of one¹s own wellbeing. Equanimity supports kusala siila when one hears abusive speech and one abstains from retorting it with harsh speech. At such a moment there is no aversion or conceit, no impatience. There is evenmindedness and impartiality towards the object that is experienced. For the development of samatha and vipassanaa one needs equanimity so that one is not impatient with regard to the result of one¹s practice. Equanimity is a condition that there is not sluggishness nor over-exertion. As we read, it causes the associated dhammas to proceed evenly, in a balanced way, just as a charioteer who looks with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly. In the development of vipassanaa, one learns that in the absolute sense, there are no persons, no situations, only dhammas appearing through the six doors. Through equanimity one will gradually learn to view the object with impartiality, no matter it is pleasant or unpleasant. Equanimity supports the citta and cetasikas to have wise attention to the object. Through equanimity there will be no selection of the object of awareness. All dhammas, no matter whether they are kusala or akusala, are equally suitable for being objects of understanding. Equanimity is one of the factors leading to enlightenment. It develops together with paññaa. When right understanding of dhammas grows, there will be more equanimity towards them. ****** Nina. 44676 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: anusayas. philofillet Hi Nina, and all > > I have been meaning to ask about > > anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. > -------------- > N: We know *that* we have them, because they condition the arising of > akusala cittas. We have all of them! Ph: I see. Know *that* we have them, before we can hope to know more than that. > ----------- > Ph: This is one of the things I get mixed signals from in Kh Sujin and > Nina's > > teaching. > ------------ > N: Pardon, I do not teach. Ph: Ok, sorry about that. And sorry for "mixed signals." That wasn't the right word. It has to do with the "you *should* be perplexed" (baffled? What was that word?) line of the Buddha - the Buddha's teaching is subtle and contrary to the ways of the world. There are many paradoxical aspects that beginners struggle with - if they unwisely choose to struggle, that is, as I was when I posted this morning. > -------------- > Ph: There are times Kh Sujin says that we shouldn't even > > expect to figure out if a citta that has fallen away is kusala or > > akusala, and other times when I read that knowing our anusayas is > > very important. > -------------- > N: Knowing that we have anusayas is important, it shows us conditions for > akusala citta. Anusayas are so stubborn, deeply rooted. That is why we make > the same mistakes again and again, as Lodewijk says. Ph: So seeing our repeated mistakes is an indicator of anusayas. I like that line in Dhammapada. "See the man who has been set free run back to his chains." Instead of using that moment to understand anusays and feel gratitude to the Buddha who teaches the way out, we fret and regret and beat ourselves up, just tightening the chains. I ahven't had an angry outburst in months and months. But the tendency is lying there, latent. When it comes, as it will, will I understand anusayas - will akusala condition kusala? > ---------------- > Ph: If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala > > or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth can we > > know our anusayas? > -------------- > N: Right, we notice kusala citta and akusala citta in a coarse way, but we > do not know them yet as pure naama, we take them for self. > However, we can begin to develop more understanding of them when they occur. > Anusayas do not arise, they are latent, lying dormant. But they are strong > conditioning factors. > ---------- > N: The Buddha wanted to cause people to have a sense of urgency here. We > should not be neglectful but develop the way leading to the end of > defilements. Ph: I read in today's passage from Cetasika that the sotapanna sees deeply into dukkha, conditioning urgency and right effort. So seeing our anusayas with right understanding and gaining urgency from it might be akin to seeing into dukkha. Thanks for your feedback, Nina. I have no further questions about anusayas at this time. Metta, Phil 44677 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is "good friend" rupa or nama? philofillet Hi Nina, and all Nina > When listening to the good friend, certainly, sound can be a condition. It > depends on the aspect one views the matter. Ph: I had been saddened by a news story of a mother who was stabbed in front of her small child, and found that a passage you quote from vism about khandas being so fleeting, just this moment, then gone, was helpful, when it came to mind. At other times it might not be helpful. I thought of the first audio clip in the files, when you are talking to Kh Sujin about your attachemnt to Lodewijk, and how you worry, and you say that it feels like a cold shower when Kh Sujin says it's just nama, and Kh Sujin says "but it's the truth...it's the truth." I find something very soothing and encouraging in the tone of her voice at that moment. I think it could be that the rupa of her voice is conditioned by kusala citta and that sound has in itself a conditioning power. Metta, Phil 44678 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings10 Â?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= rjkjp1 Dear Howard, Nice about the raccons, cool animals I think (not having any where I come from). I agree with your points about the bombing raid. It is certainly true that it is considerably less akusala if one is following orders only because of duty, rather than keenly wanting to, but still akusala. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > 44679 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601- Ken O ashkenn2k Hi Tep As far as I know, mind cannot be working in the background while concentration at the present moment. Citta cannot concentrated on the present moment at one object while at the same time that it is aware of of other phenomena. Citta moves so fast, so there is an illusion that there is mind in the background. Just like when we are watching a movie, the citta is moving so fast that we thought we are listening as well as seeing. The mind is like the monkey moving from one branch to another branch, in that sense to me, it is continuous singularlly. Ken O Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 44680 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:33am Subject: Visitors htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Originally the host is there at home. Once visitors come in and meet the host. Visitors leave. The host is there at home as usual. Some visitors are good and they help the host. Some visitors are bad and they destroy the environment and the host. Some visitors are just behaving like familiar friends. Originally citta is there at home. It is bhavanga citta. The home is hadaya vatthu. Once visitors of different cittas come in the home of hadaya vatthu and meet citta. Visitors of different cittas leave the home hadaya vatthu. The host citta become bhavanga citta and at home of hadaya vatthu as usual. Some visitors are good like 'karuna citta, mudita citta, mahakusala cittas'. Some visitors are bad like dosa citta, lobha citta, mana citta and they destroy the environment hadaya vatthu, and other visitors of associated cetasikas and the host, originally pure citta. Some visitors are just behaving like familiar friends like contact, feeling, volition, perception, one-pointedness, mental-life, and attention. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44681 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601- Ken O buddhistmedi... Dear Ken O - > Ken O: > As far as I know, mind cannot be working in the background while > concentration at the present moment. Citta cannot concentrated on > the present moment at one object while at the same time that it is > aware of of other phenomena. Tep: You most certainly were talking about the individual cittas while I was talking about mental states or streams of conciousness. By the way, how can you deny that while your attention is on the breaths, you can also be aware of sensations and perception in that moment? How can you deny that while your mindfulness is on the arising and passing-away phenomena of sensations (vedana), you can also be aware of your in-and-out breathing? Of course, only when the mind is absorbed in the object of meditation, then it is not aware of the bodily pains caused by long sitting, for example. KO: > The mind is like the monkey moving from > one branch to another branch, in that sense to me, it is continuous > singularlly. > Tep: While a monkey is about to swing to the next branch, its attention is shifted to that branch and the current branch is now in the "background" of its consciousness. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep 44682 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, For the 25th: many happy returns and may you grow in the Dhamma. I also wish you a very pleasant vacation. Nina. op 22-04-2005 15:56 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > We're taking our older son's family > (including our granddaughter), who live in Texas, and my younger son & his > girlfriend, who live near us, on a trip to Disney World in Florida to > celebrate my > 65th birthday. 44683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= nilovg Hi Ken and Sarah, thank you for your explanations. I understand: virati cetasika arises in a moment. And as Sarah said: If we are of the opinion that anatta can be taken too far - that > sometimes it is wrong to realise there are only dhammas (no > controlling self) - then, it seems to me, panna will be reluctant > (or hesitant) to take the step from pariyatti to patipatti. I am > assuming you would agree with that, so I am still curious to know > where your reservations fit in with the Abhidhamma. 44684 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: anusayas. buddhistmedi... Hello Phil (Nina and others ) - Ph: I read in today's passage from Cetasika that the sotapanna sees deeply into dukkha, conditioning urgency and right effort. So seeing our anusayas with right understanding and gaining urgency from it might be akin to seeing into dukkha. Tep: Nina said that anusayas did not arise and that they were strong conditioning factors for akusala cittas. In conection to that may I ask you some questions? <1> How do you "see" anusayas with right understanding since, unlike the five clinging aggregates, they do not arise for you to see them? Shouldn't you observe the mind which is conditioned by anusayas instead? <2> Anusayas are not mentioned in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta, so you can't be mindful of them by dhammanupassana. What would you do to gain urgency from them? [ I am not sure what you mean by "gaining urgency". Do you mean abandoning them without delays?] Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Nina, and all > > > > I have been meaning to ask about > > > anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. > > -------------- > > Ph: If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala > > > or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth > can we > > > know our anusayas? > > -------------- > > N: Right, we notice kusala citta and akusala citta in a coarse > way, but we do not know them yet as pure naama, we take them for self. > > However, we can begin to develop more understanding of them when they occur. Anusayas do not arise, they are latent, lying dormant. But they are strong conditioning factors. > 44685 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/22/05 2:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > For the 25th: many happy returns and may you grow in the Dhamma. I also wish > you a very pleasant vacation. > Nina. > ===================== Thanks so much! (For both wishes!!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44686 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unchanging, For All Times dacostacharles I realize this is old but something was present I had to comment on: "TG This passage is instruction to thwart conceptualizing things as entities or self." The idea of the of "conceptualizing things as entities or self." is not the point or central theme of the suttras. it is to thwart conceptualizing things as something you can hold on to (that can be owned/controlled), as a source of lasting happiness, or as something permanent. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: TGrand458@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 04 April, 2005 03:17 Subject: Re: [dsg] Unchanging, For All Time ... In a message dated 4/3/05 7:17:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: > Hi Jon and TG > Your discussion reminds me of the Samannaphala Sutta (DN 2, Walshe) > where it says: "And how, Sire, is he [the monk perfected in morality] > a guardian of the sense-doors? Here a monk, on seeing a visible > object with the eye, does not grasp at its major signs or secondary > characteristics." It goes on similarly with the other senses and > talks about the "eye-faculty" etc which is probably the same as "eye- > door". > > Re this sutta, TG, are you able to understand it ("major signs" > and "secondary characteristics") without reference to commentarial or > Abhidhammic materials, the latter you know to be "definitely not the > word of the Buddha" but apparently still partially "authoritative"? > (-: > TG This passage is instruction to thwart conceptualizing things as entities or self. 44687 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:42am Subject: The Good...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Fourfold Advantage: A deity once asked the Buddha: What is good even when one is old ? What is good when established ? What is human's most precious treasure ? What is hard for thieves to steal ? The blessed Buddha answered: Morality is good even when one is old ! Faith is good when established ! Understanding is human's most precious treasure ! Merit is hard for thieves to steal ! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 36 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44688 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Dangers, Supports, causes etc matheesha333 Hello, One of Geoff's answers sparked off a memory which I would like to know a bit more about. It is about the buddha talking about knowing a list of things like near causes, supports, the danger, the cessation, etc of some dhamma. I seem to recall coming across this in a sutta and i think it is mentioned quite a bit in the commentaries. I feel it might be a structural pattern for invesitgation into the dhamma, and that to me is very interesting practice point. If anyone knows more about it, any info will be welcome. many thanks, Matheesha 44689 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. philofillet Hi James Just a word of thanks on this for now. > Ps. As a suggestion, during your free moments, rather than reading > dhamma reminders in your notebook, why don't you contemplate the 32 > parts of the body as detailed in the Satipatthana Sutta? I bet you > would find a marked improvement in the strength of your mindfulness. Since you are a good friend, this suggestion will stick with me. That is what being a Dhamma friend is all about. That is what conditions is all about. It is not about *reading* the reminders, though. It is about reflecting on them. Usually the reflection will arise without a reminder from the notebook, but the notebook is helpful. I will write down the passage with the 32 parts of the body. And we will see how deeply and how often reflection will arise. I already reflect fairly often on the 4 great elements, as advised by the Buddha to Rahula ("Rahula, develop meditation that is like the earth; for when you develop meditation that is like the earth, arisen agreeable and disagreeable contacts will not invade your mind and remain.") I would guess off the top of my head that reflecting on the 4 great elements might be more helpful for me than reflecting in detail on body parts, since the latter are more conceptual than the elements. (ie sinews, bones and bone marrow etc are compsed of the four elements when you get down to it.) I do find that this reflection on body parts arises on occasion with respect to foulness when there is awareness of sensual lust towards a woman. (More often other approaches to this situation arise, for example considerations of the the feelings of the other person, metta perhaps.) Anyways, thanks for the reminder. That's what beinga Dhamma friend is all about. I'll get back on the rest of this post and the other one later. Metta, Phhil 44690 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: good wishes to Howard - and Jon buddhistmedi... Dear Howard and Jon - Please allow me to join Nina to give Happy Birthday wishes to you both. May you achieve a great success in your Dhamma practice, and become (at least) Sotapannas in this life. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 4/22/05 2:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > For the 25th: many happy returns and may you grow in the Dhamma. I also wish > > you a very pleasant vacation. > > Nina. > > > ===================== > Thanks so much! (For both wishes!!) > > With metta, > Howard > 44691 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: Asankhata buddhistmedi... Hello Lisa - I would like to contribute a little to your presentation on Nibbana. The following three quotes are my favorite description of Nibbana. (I) "Any sensual bliss in the world, any heavenly bliss, isn't worth one sixteenth-sixteenth of the bliss of the ending of craving." [Udana II.2] (II) "One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress." [Udana VIII.4, Nibbana Sutta] (III) "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of cessation". AN X.60 Girimananda Sutta (Ten Perceptions) Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > > Asankhata? The Unconditioned (Nibbana)Beyond conceptual thought? > The prominence of mental defilements and requisites of enlightenment in its schemes of categories, indicative of its psychological and ethical concerns, connects the Abhidhamma to the second and fourth noble truths, the origin of suffering and the way leading to its end. And the entire taxonomy of dhammas elaborated by the system reaches its consummation in the "unconditioned element" (asankhata dhatu), which is Nibbana, the third noble truth, that of the cessation of suffering. > > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html > 44692 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes to Howard - and Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 4/22/05 7:32:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepyawa@... writes: > Dear Howard and Jon - > > Please allow me to join Nina to give Happy Birthday wishes to you > both. May you achieve a great success in your Dhamma practice, and > become (at least) Sotapannas in this life. > > Respectfully, > > > =================== Thanks! Yes, indeed, at LEAST sotapannas!!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44693 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400 buddhistmedi... Dear Nina, Kel, Mike, James, Phil and other DSG members - In the DSG message # 44610, Nina wrote: > Dear Tep, > No need to step aside. As Htoo says, this is a forum > and we all can butt in. > Nina Of course, Nina, the "butt-in permission" is a good policy. In the previous mail Nina's abhidhamma remark on "breathing" meditation was : > As Mike says, > breathing in long etc.--seems to me to be a concept. > Yes, but the citta which attends to it is a nama, non-self. > It has to be realized as such. Citta is one of the four applications > of mindfulness that one should attend to. Also, even one > knows that breathing is long, there is still rupa impinging, > and hardness or heat may appear. Tep : In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa. If hardness or heat may appear and vedana may result from the phassa, it doesn't matter to him/her either. Only piti and sukha (jhana factors) are the objects of the citta in the second tetrad (the breath is the object of the citta in the first tetrad). Your review of anapanasati Commentaries in the Vism. (see the DSG message # 27400) summarizes it very well. N: As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness(piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhana, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhanacitta has fallen away panna realizes the characteristic of piti as it is: only a kind of nama, which is impermanent and not self. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > No need to step aside. As Htoo says, this is a forum and we all can butt in. > Nina > op 20-04-2005 01:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > Nina, I understand that your message was directed to Mike and Kel, so > > it should be more appropriate for me to step aside until Mike and Kel > > have responded. 44694 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunter gazita2002 Dear Sarah and others on this thread, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Nina, (KenO, Azita & All) > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, > > your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific > > case. > > These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I > > have > > doubts about. S: > Azita mentioned that as a nurse in her hospital, sometimes she is assigned > to work in the operating theatre when abortions are performed. Again, she > has no intention to harm of course. She can add more perhaps. It's like > the hunter's wife who is instructed to assist her husband, .............. > Metta, > > Sarah Azita: I want to clarfy that the above event took place prior to my having heard the dhamma - about 30 years ago. These days I would firmly decline the position of assisting anyone perform abortions as I believe it to be akusala kamma. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 44695 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:22pm Subject: Re: Asankhata foamflowers Dhammafriend Tep, I pray you consider me a Dhammafriend I admire your posts along with everyone else on this board who has the courage, faith and equanimity to put their effort out there for all to see. When I read this last passage I see two ways of reading it and I pray you don't mind my sharing personal views. One way of reading the passage for me is to see someone sit away from civilization alone in the wilderness under the shade of a tree or empty building. To be alone not dependent on anyone or anything, letting go of all cravings and aversions, unbinding from thoughts of this is me, this is mine and all the cravings and aversions that go with this kind of ignorance. To see attachments and aversions becoming smaller and less important and finally they no longer moved and this is bliss this is peace. (Tep posted) (III) "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of cessation". AN X.60 Girimananda Sutta (Ten Perceptions) (Lisa) To sit in the wilderness is to sit in the jumble of thoughts, emotions, feelings, and sensation that come and go within the body/mind and observe all this without conceptual overlay as I go about the day. To sit in the shade of a pure mind free of conceptual grasping and reaction to what is pleasant or unpleasant and see all things that are manifested as equal. To sit by an empty house, which is like siting in bare awareness at the root of the mind with the knowledge that all things, which come and go within that body/mind are empty like a house with no thing in it. And this is peace, this is relinquishment of all things that are dependent on other to be. The ending of craving and aversion, unbinding from what I think is me and what I do not think is me, this is Nibbana, this is freedom. That is actually my daily meditation right now because I have only an hour of formal sitting time per day, so I've tried to take my meditation through out my day. I took a year off to heal a bad back and could sit and meditate eight hours a day five days a week. A couple of months ago I went back to work and my back has healed up very nicely. I am working on getting to know Abhidhamma pitaka (further teachings) and its terms so please be patient with me I am just a beginner and love the freedom of learning something new. It gives me space to learn when I know I don't have a clue about the subject I am trying to understand. Hopefully my future post will be sprinkled with Abhidhamma words and concepts that add the right spice and flavor to this boards tastes. I do not mind critical review of my posts as I understand that all things that come and go are equal in nature and understanding this plus learning this advanced teaching will test my equanimity and mindfulness. I look forward to the difficult task of learning and understanding the details of consciousness from the Abhidhamma system. With Metta, Lisa (trying very hard not to jump up and down and say yahoooooo this is going to be fun!!!!) 44696 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400 lbidd2 Tep: "In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa." Hi Tep, Someone who is practicing anapanasati for insight might be interested in what is concept and what is rupa in order to understand the reality of hardness and the unreality of breathing. And someone who is practicing anapanasati for jhana must know what is concept and what is rupa. The sign of in-and-out breathing is a concept. Larry 44697 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:18pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 175 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== When one has just started to develop satipaììhåna, sati does not often arise. One may wonder how many years it will take before there can be any progress. When we think of the goal with desire or when we are afraid of failure there is akusala citta. We may not notice that there is any progress, but even if there is sometimes one moment of mindfulness of a reality appearing through one of the six doors, right understanding can develop little by little. Sati which arises falls away, but it is never lost, it conditions the arising again of sati later on. Instead of having desire for enlightenment we should see the value of right understanding at this moment. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44698 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:20pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunter sarahprocter... Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > > Azita: I want to clarfy that the above event took place prior to my > having heard the dhamma - about 30 years ago. > These days I would firmly decline the position of assisting > anyone perform abortions as I believe it to be akusala kamma. ... S: Thanks for clarifying and I'm glad to hear it. Hope you're all having a good weekend together. Look f/w to your reports... Metta, Sarah ========= 44699 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Simon sarahprocter... Hi Simon, --- simon ralfe wrote: > As requested here's a little about myself. I'm a GP , and have been > involved with buddhism for 4 years, starting after a trip to India and > Nepal. I have had the good fortune to meet many sangha, and regularly > visit Chithurst , West Sussex. > And I'm keen to learn from whatever source is available! .... S: Many thanks for this intro and welcome to DSG! I'm interested to know if you live near Chithurst? I come from West Sussex myself (as does Alan W, the founder of the 'Zolag' website) and used to visit Chithurst from time to time when Ven Sumedho first established it. Please join in any threads or start your own and let us know if you need any assistance in finding your way around. You may find the Pali glossary in the 'files' section helpful and also the Nyantiloka Pali dict on-line. Also in 'Useful Posts' in files, you may like to look at posts under 'Abhidhamma- beginners' or anything else which seems relevant. Look forward to talking to you later. Metta, Sarah ====== 44700 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:04am Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400 buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Nina, Kel, Mike, James, Phil and other DSG members - > > Tep : In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern > whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa. If hardness or heat may > appear and vedana may result from the phassa, it doesn't matter to > him/her either. Only piti and sukha (jhana factors) are the objects of the > citta in the second tetrad (the breath is the object of the citta in the first > tetrad). Your review of anapanasati Commentaries in the Vism. (see > the DSG message # 27400) summarizes it very well. You explain this very well. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu! Metta, James 44701 From: nina Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:01am Subject: Mahaa-satipatthaana, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Mahåsatipatthåna Acharn Sujin¹s lectures at the Foundation. 1. In the first Application of Mindfulness, Mindfulness of the Body, there are the sections on Mindfulness on Breathing, the Postures, the Four kinds of Clear Comprehension, the Parts of the Body, the Elements, the Cemetery Contemplations. When people hear about Mindfulness on Breathing, the Parts of the Body, or the Cemetery Contemplations, they wonder whether this means that one has to cultivate jhåna first. They seem to be objects of samatha. In Samatha, samådhi is the leading factor to the attainment of jhåna with the nimitta, the mental image as object. In ånåpånasati as object of samatha, samådhi one does not attend to anything else but the breath. In vipassanå one has to be aware of the characteristics of realities and develop understanding of these in order to know realities as impermanent, dukkha and anattå. Those who had already developed jhåna would ask the Buddha how the development of this meditation subject of samatha could lead to great benefit, great fruit. The answer was: in seeing the body in the body, feeling in feeling, citta in citta, dhamma in dhamma. N: In the Mahå-Råhulovådasutta Råhula asked the Buddha this with regard to Mindfulness of Breathing. The Buddha explained to him first all the realities included in the five Khandhas so that he would learn to be mindful of them. Sujin: In the Application of Mindfulness of the Body all subjects that are connected with the body are included, beginning with the most subtle rúpa of breath and ending with the coarser rúpas such as bones, which are foul and the cemetery contemplations. All these sections are meant as a means of recollecting realities, as reminders not to be forgetful of realities. **** Nina. 44702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo nilovg Dear Tep and Htoo, op 23-04-2005 02:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > > Tep : In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern > whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa. If hardness or heat may > appear and vedana may result from the phassa, it doesn't matter to > him/her either. Only piti and sukha (jhana factors) are the objects of the > citta in the second tetrad (the breath is the object of the citta in the first > tetrad). Your review of anapanasati Commentaries in the Vism. (see > the DSG message # 27400) summarizes it very well. --------------- N: Larry explains the difference between the object of jhana (a concept, a nimitta) and of vipassana: not a concept. As said to Phil, I shall wrote about what I heard on MP3. ------------------------ T quotes N: As regards , the > Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced > with the object? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness(piti) is > present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the > happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the > jhana, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhanacitta > has fallen away panna realizes the characteristic of piti as it is: only a > kind of nama, which is impermanent and not self. --------------- N: The yogavacara has to know which jhanafactors he has abandoned and which ones are remaining. Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti, but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object and also the nimitta. Each citta can have only one object at a time. I find that Ken O explained this clearly re background. I admit that the text is very compact. I would like to ask Htoo what he thinks. Nina. 44703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions for right awareness. nilovg Hi Phil, I shall go into this in a separate post, concerning what I heard on MP3, satipatthana. This will also cover other points touched on by Tep. Nina. op 23-04-2005 01:23 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I would guess off the top of my head that > reflecting on the 4 great elements might be more helpful for me than > reflecting in detail on body parts, since the latter are more > conceptual than the elements. (ie sinews, bones and bone marrow etc > are compsed of the four elements when you get down to it.) 44704 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: Mahaa-satipatthaana, 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: Dear friends, Mahåsatipatthåna Acharn Sujin¹s lectures at the Foundation. 1. In the first Application of Mindfulness, Mindfulness of the Body, there are the sections on Mindfulness on Breathing, the Postures, the Four kinds of Clear Comprehension, the Parts of the Body, the Elements, the Cemetery Contemplations. When people hear about Mindfulness on Breathing, the Parts of the Body, or the Cemetery Contemplations, they wonder whether this means that one has to cultivate jhåna first. They seem to be objects of samatha. ----------------------------------------------------------------- In Samatha, samådhi is the leading factor to the attainment of jhåna with the nimitta, the mental image as object. In ånåpånasati as object of samatha, samådhi one does not attend to anything else but the breath. In vipassanå one has to be aware of the characteristics of realities and develop understanding of these in order to know realities as impermanent,dukkha and anattå. Those who had already developed jhåna would ask the Buddha how the development of this meditation subject of samatha could lead to great benefit, great fruit. The answer was: in seeing the body in the body, feeling in feeling, citta in citta, dhamma in dhamma. N: In the Mahå-Råhulovådasutta Råhula asked the Buddha this with regard to Mindfulness of Breathing. The Buddha explained to him first all the realities included in the five Khandhas so that he would learn to be mindful of them. Sujin: In the Application of Mindfulness of the Body all subjects that are connected with the body are included, beginning with the most subtle rúpa of breath and ending with the coarser rúpas such as bones, which are foul and the cemetery contemplations. All these sections are meant as a means of recollecting realities, as reminders not to be forgetful of realities. **** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, thank you very much for your post on Mahaa-satipatthaana,1. What I feel is that there is 'the present', which is moving to be 'all the time present'. So there is no 'future', no 'past' in real term. Mahasatipatthana sutta is a valid teaching taught by The Buddha to bhikkhus ( at Kammaasadhamma village of Kuruu state ) and not to 'lay people'. The Buddha said , 'Bhikkhave'. This is retold by Venerable Ananda in the sutta as 'Tatra kho bhikkhuu aamantesi 'Bhikkhavo'ti. Bhikkhavo'ti means 'Bhikkhave' + iti (such). So what Ven. Ananda said was 'The Buddha said, 'Bhikkhave'. This is addressing to all bhikkhus in front of Him (The Buddha) when he preached this sutta. This sutta is a valid sutta for teaching to bhikkhus, who are the teachers of lay disciples. The sutta goes 'session' after 'session'. I think these sessions were summerised by Ven Ananda so as to present to Ven Kassapa and other 498 arahats. With respect, Htoo Naing 44705 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:06pm Subject: The Right Roots...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Steady & Simple ever increasing Advantage Today on this Full moon Uposatha Observance day, lay Buddhist disciples gain their ticket to future divinity, and their approach towards Nibbana by keeping these 8 simple & sound rules of training from sunrise to sunrise: 1: I hereby agree to avoid killing any living being. 2: I hereby agree to abstain from taking what is not given. 3: I hereby agree to refrain from any sexual activity. 4: I hereby agree to desist from false speech. 5: I hereby agree to shun alcohol & drugs causing carelessness. 6: I hereby agree to not eat any solid food after 12 noon. 7: I hereby agree to avoid dancing, music, shows, & cosmetics. 8: I hereby agree to refrain from sleeping on a fine high bed. On the ancient Buddhist habit of Uposatha observance Days see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/misc/uposatha.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel206/uposatha.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44706 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:42am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo buddhistmedi... Hi Larry, James, Nina, Ken O, Htoo, Mike, Kel, Phil and others - Do you believe that the nut-and-bolt knowledge of the Abhidhamma is very useful for the samatha-vipassana meditation? Recently Mike and Nina pointed out that breathing was a concept which made it "unqualified" as object of satipatthana. I also have heard the suggestion that Anapanasati is samatha bhavana because the breath is not an ultimate reality. But those who study the Anapanasati Sutta know that the full version of Anapanasati consists of four tetrads for kayanupassana satipatthana, vedananupassana satipatthana, cittanupassana satipatthana, and dhammanupassana satipatthana - all four in one. This fact suggests that anapanasati and Satipatthana are very compatible (like water and milk?). Does this imply that it doesn't matter that the breath is a concept or a rupa -- as long as it works as an effective meditation object that was used by and recommended by the Buddha? Larry (message #44696) gives two reasons why someone should be interested in knowing whether the breath is a concept or a rupa : L: Someone who is practicing anapanasati for insight might be > interested in what is concept and what is rupa in order to > understand the reality of hardness and the unreality of breathing. > And someone who is practicing anapanasati for jhana must know > what is concept and what is rupa. The sign of in-and-out breathing > is a concept. T: Intellectual understanding of concept and rupa is important for intellectuals, but how does such understanding help the anapanasati yogi to achieve jhana? Sure, clear understanding of nama and rupa is a basis of Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind, but I don't know how the intellectual understanding of concept and rupa in regard to breathing may help the anapanasati yogi attain jhana prior to vipassana-nana (in the 4th tetrad). Ken O (message # 44679) was talking about citta's nature of being able to take one object at a time. Ken O: Citta cannot concentrated on the present moment at one object > while at the same time that it is aware of of other phenomena. > Citta moves so fast, so there is an illusion that there is mind > in the background. T: I understand that basic concept of the Abhidhamma too. But how could such Abhidhamma principle assist the anapanasati yogi to attain jhana and vipassana-nana? (In message # 44702) N: The yogavacara has to know which > jhanafactors he has abandoned and which ones are remaining. > Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti, > but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object > and also the nimitta. T: It doesn't mean either that the yogavacara needs be concerned about whether piti or the nimitta is the legitimate object of his meditation, or if it is possible for one of the them to be in the backgorund, etc.. The anapanasati yogi simply jumps into the water and is busy swimming. The Abhidhammic intellectuals may think about the Abhidhamma principles so much that they only gain some intellectual understanding - but that intellectual understanding is not free from doubts, because there is no experience to back it up. Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep and Htoo, > > op 23-04-2005 02:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > Tep : In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern > > whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa. If hardness or heat may > > appear and vedana may result from the phassa, it doesn't matter to > > him/her either. Only piti and sukha (jhana factors) are the objects of the > > citta in the second tetrad (the breath is the object of the citta in the first > > tetrad). Your review of anapanasati Commentaries in the Vism. (see > > the DSG message # 27400) summarizes it very well. > --------------- > N: Larry explains the difference between the object of jhana (a concept, a > nimitta) and of vipassana: not a concept. > As said to Phil, I shall wrote about what I heard on MP3. > ------------------------ > T quotes N: As regards , the > > Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced > > with the object? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness(piti) is > > present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the > > happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the > > jhana, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhanacitta > > has fallen away panna realizes the characteristic of piti as it is: only a > > kind of nama, which is impermanent and not self. > --------------- > N: The yogavacara has to know which jhanafactors he has abandoned and which > ones are remaining. Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with > piti, but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object and also > the nimitta. > Each citta can have only one object at a time. I find that Ken O explained > this clearly re background. > I admit that the text is very compact. I would like to ask Htoo what he > thinks. > Nina. 44707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disneyland to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I was thinking of Disneyland. Your schedule is quite different from the usual. Perhaps no time for your usual quiet hours, when traveling. But you said that one should carry on one's meditation to daily life. I listened to Kh. Sujin saying: we should not limit awareness to time, place or object and I thought of Disneyland. This may seem rather distracting, lots of noise, but she said that this is the right effort of the eightfold Path: not putting any limits to the objects of awareness, no matter in what situation we are. We often discussed right effort and you were wondering: is only listening enough? No, also applying what one heard. Also in Disneyland there are sights, sounds, smells, thinking. Atapii (ardorous), sampajano satima! Let us know please of your different vipaakas and experiences while you were traveling, Nina. 44708 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: Asankhata buddhistmedi... Dhammafriend Lisa - Of course every member here is our dhammafriend, and I have learned a lot since the day I joined DSG. I am happy to read your posts too. > Lisa (trying very hard not to jump up and down and say > yahoooooo this is going to be fun!!!!) T: I am glad that you are well energized! L: When I read this last passage I see two ways of reading it > and I pray you don't mind my sharing personal views. >To be alone not dependent on anyone or anything, letting go > of all cravings and aversions, unbinding from thoughts of > this is me, this is mine and all the cravings and aversions > that go with this kind of ignorance. To see attachments and > aversions becoming smaller and less important and finally > they no longer moved and this is bliss this is peace. T: Nina and Htoo often say that we are here to share our thoughts. The letting go attitude will help you go a long way, and you will never have to write a farewell/goodbye message because your feeling is hurt by someone's criticism. I really like your interpretation of the Perception of Cessation (Nirodha- sanna). Thanks! L: And this is peace, this is relinquishment of all things that are > dependent on other to be. The ending of craving and aversion, > unbinding from what I think is me and what I do not think is me, > this is Nibbana, this is freedom. T: Precisely. Very well said, Lisa. Now, what about the other nine perceptions in AN X.60? Sincerely yours, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > > Dhammafriend Tep, > > I pray you consider me a Dhammafriend I admire your posts along with > everyone else on this board who has the courage, faith and equanimity > to put their effort out there for all to see. > 44709 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disneyland to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/23/05 10:09:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I was thinking of Disneyland. > Your schedule is quite different from the usual. Perhaps no time for your > usual quiet hours, when traveling. > But you said that one should carry on one's meditation to daily life. > I listened to Kh. Sujin saying: we should not limit awareness to time, place > or object and I thought of Disneyland. This may seem rather distracting, > lots of noise, but she said that this is the right effort of the eightfold > Path: not putting any limits to the objects of awareness, no matter in what > situation we are. > We often discussed right effort and you were wondering: is only listening > enough? No, also applying what one heard. > Also in Disneyland there are sights, sounds, smells, thinking. > Atapii (ardorous), sampajano satima! > Let us know please of your different vipaakas and experiences while you were > traveling, > Nina. > ======================== Thanks, Nina. I agree with the importance of attempting to be mindful and clearly comprehending at all times. (Difficult to achieve, but foolish to ignore.) My ongoing practice in that regard puts attention on bodily sensations and position as primary "anchor", and in the process much of all else that arises is noted as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44710 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:29am Subject: Re: anusayas. philofillet Hi Tep, and all > Tep: Nina said that anusayas did not arise and that they were strong > conditioning factors for akusala cittas. In conection to that may I ask > you some questions? > <1> How do you "see" anusayas with right understanding since, unlike > the five clinging aggregates, they do not arise for you to see them? That's what I was wondering about. However, in the passage that I quoted from Cetasikas, it was an enlightened person who sees into dukkha in the anusayas. For us, all we can do is think about them, and speculate, as far as I can see. We can come to see the mistakes we repeatedly make, the traps we repeatedly fall into, our character traits, our habitual likings, the things that tend to irritate us, the things that tend to move us to tears, and so on. But we can only think about them, and speculate, and obviously we are thinking about them through a thick cloud of ignorance. We can say "panna will know" - it is an easy way to answer these questions, but I think it's true, don't you? Faith in the Buddha's teaching tells me so. > Shouldn't you observe the mind which is conditioned by anusayas > instead? > <2> Anusayas are not mentioned in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta, so > you can't be mindful of them by dhammanupassana. What would you > do to gain urgency from them? [ I am not sure what you mean > by "gaining urgency". Do you mean abandoning them without delays?] Again, this was referring to a sotapanna, if I recall correctly. I am always doubtful about urgency for wordlings. Isn't urgency more often conditioned by fear than by right understanding? My usual pattern is to become complacent when things are going well, with suddent bouts of urgency when things are not going well. That is not the way true urgency (samvega) should be, I imagine. I don't know yet what real samvega is, only pseudo samvega, which is really about self struggling to find something reassuring to hold on to, I guess. We will know real urgency as our wisdom develops, or we won't. You are posting with sincere effort these days - I can sense that. What is your motivation? I saw that spray painted in graffiti one day - "Check your motivation" - and I did, and saw that Dhamma for me is often a way to make life richer instead of a way to escape from attachment to senes door objects. Do you feel urgency to escape from samsara? I only do when I'm feeling crappy, which is not the way it should be. What is your motivation to study Dhamma? Is it really to escape from samsara? If I'm honest with myself, I can't say so. I am enjoying life so much these days. Of course enlightened people can enjoy life too, but... I think of the many suttas in which the Buddha warns that he who "seeks delight...seeks suffering." (I sometimes think that enlightened people can "find delight" in an innocuous way without the unwholesomeness of seeking it.) As long as I am seeking delight as much as I do, I cannot speak of urgency. Metta, Phil 44711 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, nilovg Hi Tep, op 23-04-2005 15:42 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Do you believe that the nut-and-bolt knowledge of the Abhidhamma is > very useful for the samatha-vipassana meditation? ---------- N: Yes, but I do not mean that we have to know all details of the abhidhamma, just some basic principles are essential, I would say. We have to know what nama is, what rupa is, we have to have some notions about different processes. Abhidhamma is not directed towards intellectual knowledge, but to the practice of vipassana. --------- T: Recently Mike and Nina pointed out that breathing was a concept > which made it "unqualified" as object of satipatthana. --------------- N: No, it can be object of samatha and of vipassana, but the methods are different. The subtle rupa that is breath appears at the nosetip or upperlip. This rupa, or any nama appearing while breathing can be object of awareness. Also the jhanacitta that attains jhana with the subject of breath can be the object of vipassana. ------------ T:I also have heard > the suggestion that Anapanasati is samatha bhavana because the > breath is not an ultimate reality. But those who study the Anapanasati > Sutta know that the full version of Anapanasati consists of four tetrads > for kayanupassana satipatthana, vedananupassana satipatthana, > cittanupassana satipatthana, and dhammanupassana satipatthana - > all four in one. ------------ N: Yes, that shows that it is for both kinds of bhavana, as you say. ---------- T:This fact suggests that anapanasati and Satipatthana > are very compatible (like water and milk?). Does this imply that it > doesn't matter that the breath is a concept or a rupa -- as long as it > works as an effective meditation object that was used by and > recommended by the Buddha? ----------- N: See Larry's explanation. When it is the nimitta experienced by jhanacitta it is a concept. ---------- > T: ...(snipped) I don't know > how the intellectual understanding of concept and rupa in regard to > breathing may help the anapanasati yogi attain jhana prior to > vipassana-nana (in the 4th tetrad). ------- N: He may not attain jhana but only develop vipassana. -------------- T: (In message # 44702) N: The yogavacara has to know which >> jhanafactors he has abandoned and which ones are remaining. >> Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti, >> but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object >> and also the nimitta. > > T: It doesn't mean either that the yogavacara needs be concerned > about whether piti or the nimitta is the legitimate object of his > meditation, ... ---------- N: The jhanacitta could not change objects, I think. It should be the mental image of breath, on and on, so long as he is in jhana. ---------- T:The Abhidhammic intellectuals may think about > the Abhidhamma principles so much that they only gain some > intellectual understanding - but that intellectual understanding is not > free from doubts, because there is no experience to back it up. --------- N: We all have doubts until we are sotapanna. Right understanding can eradicate doubt. As said, Abhidhamma is not directed towards intellectual understanding. It begins with intellectual understanding, and this can lead to direct understanding. I notice that you have referred to this point before. Perhaps we should discuss this further. We have so much ignorance about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. The thinking of events and situations covers up the experience of one object through one doorway at a time. This is what happens in reality (also in Disneyland ;-)) ). We forget that life exists only in one moment, no matter we look at hairs, bones, other people. The Abhidhamma really helps us to understand this more. We think of our kusala citta or akusala citta, we take them for self. We fail to see that there are many elements coming together for the arising of one extremely short moment of citta. We learn in the Visuddhimagga that the maha-kusala citta is assisted by many sobhana cetasikas that support it, just for a moment, and then it falls away. Many conditioning factors, some stemming from the past, were needed for that one moment of kusala citta. We can learn in our life that even intellectual understanding is beneficial, that it can help us to understand ourselves and others. It can help us to face difficult situations in our social life. Nina. 44712 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:57am Subject: Analyse meditation with Abhidhamma foamflowers Here is my daily meditation. I would like to take my meditation apart and analyse it using Abhidhamma method. I had never put the daily practice I do on paper. Writing it down I found out english words don't go far enough into the details I experience and the Abhidhamma does! This is what I'll be working on while I'm here on the board. The jhana, anapanasati, and vipassana meditation dialoge is very helpful. Daily routine: I wake up and before I open my eyes I go to the breath for a few moments lightly touching the flow of air with my mind and watching sensations as they come and go around the nostrils and upper lip. Next I do a body scan and see if there are any dense areas of sensations or areas that have no sensations. I focus on the dense sensations with 'calm' mind and letting mind flow up and down the body leaning towards more subtle sensations until the dense area vibrates at the same rate as the more subtle areas of sensations. When the body is harmonized sometimes I let the mind become like a ring of light and take it from the tip of my head to my toes and back up again. I try to do this over and over again until my concentration breaks. Sometimes I can keep it up for 15 minutes most of the time this kind of meditation lasts for only 5 minutes. At retreats I've had it go on for one hour. Using the breath and scanning for sensations at the same time will also help me stay focused and helps the mind flow through the body with ease. Lately there has been very interesting sensations in my mid-section under diaphragm near my stomach. This has been coming up in the morning when I am just aware of being awake. The dense sensation seems like thick blanket of fog and anxiety usually follows my awareness of sensation. I have been able to fall or melt into this particular sensation like sinking into a bathtub full of water and just letting the fall away, soon after that the anxiety fades away as well. I've been working on anxiety now for years and it has become very subtle and very difficult to stay on without the mind wandering away after just a few moments of awareness. Also along with this particular vibration in (not surface) my mid-section I get very strong vibrations around the top of my head (surface) near Sagittal Suture close to the top mid-section of the skull. Many times during this kind of meditation I will also watch the lights that come and go along with the bliss that is part of the very subtlest of sensations which act as a bridge to different levels of awarness. Bliss, lights, ringing in the ears, very subtle sensations seem to act as portals, which connect to different other subtle manifestions of the mind. The mind is still aware of the body but it does not hook into sensual data. Usually when I cross over through using subtle sensual vibrations I feel expansion like the darkness behind the closed eyes that grows into a very large area and I can move out like ink in water though with ease just by staying still and aware. There are no thoughts or sensations here. It's kind of like being able to see everywhere at once within my mind and body. Sometimes when I go to this area of subtle spreading out I just watch intricate patterns of light grouped together in circles but they are distant and don't come to play much anymore. I used to get up very close to them and fly through the middle, which was empty like a donut or into the colorful round globes that made up the vibrating wheels. Most of the time I just spread out like air in the lungs though this large dark space with a light touch of awareness like bending the mind towards an object that is focused on, which for this meditation is the vastness and eventually it ends by my focus fading away and I feel content and centered, ready to start my morning. After the morning meditation is through, which is about an hour, the body is vibrating in subtle harmony and the mind is very relaxed and focused I roll over and give my mate a hug and a kiss and we cuddle for about a half of an hour. I don't need an alarm clock I always wake up in time for meditation and hugs with kisses from my sweetie. We get up together and get ready for the day and as I move through the routine of getting ready for the working day I keep my mind on the subtle sensations at play when I interact with objects, thoughts, emotions, feelings and of course my interaction and reaction with people, which is the most important part of my day. My Sweetie and I ride the train to work and I watch my reactions to sensation as I hold his hand while we move through the crowds of people at the train station. I place light attention to the sensations that come up and watch my thoughts start flying from the minds reaction to the sensual data from sight, smell and hearing. I just watch my mind go through it's old habits of reacting to the crowd of people, the noise, and smells, which I don't like to much. In the past I would think oh look at these masses of people around me and watch the thoughts as mind labeled old or young, poor or rich, dirty or clean, beautiful or ugly, stuck up or inviting, angry or happy…on and on and I wasn't aware of my body at all just the thoughts rolling around in my head and my harsh reaction to these thoughts. "Now I note the sensation first and watch for the reaction of the mind towards the sensation then I let it go. All this takes place so quickly there really isn't any kind of thinking involved and it's really not that complicated. Writing all this work down makes seem kind of strange, awkward and involved it's not the process moves like a flowing stream. " It really isn't difficult once I got the methods down it's just a different way of moving about the day, which was so different from the way I used to move. And most of the action I take during working day in the office or at home has nothing to do with the conceptual thought process. The only thoughts that come up are the ones needed for the task at hand and the conversations needed when I problem solve or do tasks with my co-workers. No daydreaming, or thinking about what ifs or should of done this or that, or what someone said or did, I just focus on what is happening right now. No reacting with anger or frustration no defense or pretense. It's really just kind of like being there and doing exactly what needs to be done and that's it. If I make a mistake or do something great I am there and see it happen without interfering. It is a nice freedom to do what is needed at work and not get caught up in the psychological drama that happens in interations with groups of people For the last year as I watch this process it almost seems as if I am swimming through clouds of fine sensation through out my day and it is very pleasant and easy but I can get dizzy and confused if I don't stay alert and aware. I can get lost in the very nice feelings that flow through the body/mind,it is like a stream of very subtle sensation and lose focus on what I'm doing. It's not like daydreaming there are no thoughts or pictures going on it's more like drifting and the mind/body can get dull and tired if I'm not careful. The sensations are so pleasant even my back pain fades into the back ground and if I get scratched it doesn't hurt at all so I have to be very mindful as I move about the day. I work from 9am to 5pm and twice a week I also go work in a restaurant as hostess for a friend who just started his business. So some of my days run as long as 9am to 10pm and staying aware of sensations, feelings, emotions, thoughts, speech, listening, seeing and actions is another form of meditation I can do all day long even if I have to be very active and social. When I have spare minutes at work I go to my breath and turn my eyes slightly up and focus on a point on the wall or a light and just stay quiet. At the restaurant there are quiet times when I can meditate this way before and after the dinner rush. Turning eyes up and staying focused on one point while standing or sitting causes a lovely sensation to come in the area of in between my eyebrows…this brings very subtle movement in this area and a liquid movement though out the body that I try and let flow out towards other people who may be around me the vibration pattern generated reminds me of metta meditation. I try and bring that out beyond the body like shinning a light into the darkness and give it to everyone who may be near me and also to our earth. I get home around 5pm or 10pm and study Dhamma or school lessons (I am not in school this term, not with two jobs lol) for about two hours along with cooking dinner if time allows, my mate and I trade cooking chores. If I work late my love orders food…lol. We both study Dhamma together and discuss what insights we've had during our day. We spend the rest of the time sharing daily events and doing our household chores together. Around 9pm I go and meditate for about an hour and work on my art until mid-night. When I meditate in the evening I usually sit on the couch cross legged with my back very straight and start with anapanasati the focus is on sensation around my nose and upper lip until the lights, bliss, expansion (awareness that goes beyond body sensations) comes up. If they don't come up I scan my body to even out sensations and watch for more subtle sensations that come up and pass away. When more subtle sensations do come up and pass away I focus on them and try to find even more subtle sensations and this goes on and on until I can't find any more sensation because they have become to subtle for me to focus on and the association with the body fades away. I go into an area where time doesn't matter, there are no lights to play with, no expansion or feeling like the body is breathing or breath has stilled or gone totally away. I don't notice any of the physical stuff and sitting is like being glued to the ground. The sharpness of the mind during and afterthis kind of meditation is very keen and bright no confusion at all. It is like relaxing back and just resting. If I am ill like with cold I will focus on the sore spots in my throat and watch sensations like sneezes or coughs come up and I will not sneeze or cough and the sensation will usually bounce around the nerves in the infected area causing me to tear up and I feel the need to cough or move, I don't and I watch them pass. I try to stay quite physically and mentally the aggressive painful sensations will fade away and so will the infection. Sometimes when I focus on the sore area the pain will bounce around and spread out to different areas of the body like something is living in that area and it wants to get away from the focused attention of the mind. Usually it's very painful to watch but if I hold tight and don't move it passes away and so does the infection. Sometimes I can't get a good focus on the area that hurts and I will get sick that happened to me this month because I become tired and didn't rest enough. At times when I work my way through the body just lightly touching the surface of the skin I will sink past surface sensations and scan my internal organs, bones, nerves, and muscles. I can actually hear the blood coursing through my veins and arteries. When I deep scan sensation will spread out like ink dropped in a glass of water as it spreads out the body feels like it is expanding and contracting and my breath goes away. The vibration is very fine and covers the surface of my skin like a glove covers a hand. During this meditation if I place the mind at the top of my head it will flow down the body like water that's pored over a rock. Contentment is the residue that is left after this kind of meditation is over. When this ends I try to take the residue of awareness with me because I feel very light and alert afterwards. Sitting is easy and I can do three hours a sit, but I don't have that kind of time right now. Early this year I could sit all day if I wanted to but right now there is very little time for sitting meditation so I try and take it my awareness meditation through out my day and into sleep. Sleep starts calling at midnight and there are more cuddles with my love, hugs and kisses and off to sleep I go. Before I go to sleep I watch my breath for a few minutes while I am on my back and view the lights behind my eyes. At this time of the day the play of light is grainy like a TV with no reception, just a fine blur of vibration of with no patterns or design to it. When this kind of grainy light shows up I also have ringing in my ears that matches the frequency of the surface of the skins vibrations and the movement of the lights behind my eyelids. I ride the breath during this meditation and see where it takes me as I watch the grainy lights behind my closed eyelids dance. Sometimes the lights turn into pictures and if they do I have to work really hard to stay awake, it's easy to fall into the sleep when the light starts forming shapes. I watch the flow of darkness and light that also brings sensations of expansion or being physically light or heavy of body. Towards the end of this meditation before I fall to sleep I feel like I am flying through space and I'm very far from the body, there is no thoughts or other things coming and going just a subtle sensation of moving forward. Maybe it is because colors can blossom getting bigger and bigger until they cover the whole field of vision behind my closed eyelids. Usually within 10 minutes I forget myself and wake up and it's morning and time to begin a new day nice and fresh. Sometimes when I can't sleep I can do anapanasati all night and I still get up with enough energy to make it through the day. I found if you don't struggle against no sleeping and just let the body rest in bed you will have enough energy to function. Sometimes if I am very restless during the night I will place the calm mind on the center of my palms and the center of my feet and also the top of my head. My teachers told me this helps bring calmness to the body too. My diet consists mainly of whole foods, lots of veggies and fruit for snacks plus I have some kind of protein during the day like eggs, cheese or lean meat. I avoid finally ground grain because it clogs up my lungs and my body gets bloated. I don't need much to eat, just small snacks like fruit and nuts during the day and a larger meal for lunch or dinner. Once or twice a month we go out to the movies or hang out with friends and have a nice dinner with some really good red wine. When I go on retreats I only eat one or two times and day, the vipassana retreats only serve vegetarian meals, which seem to make sitting much easier. I don't like to drink water so I carry a water bottle around to remind me that I must have water and sip it through out the day. I also walk two miles a day to and from work I sold my car because public transportation is easier and cheaper to use in a big city. I feel I am helping the environment and my body/mind by walking and also I am saving a lot of money. When my schedule isn't so busy I swim three times a week and lift weights four times a week. I have a gym in the building where I work, which is very nice. During lunch I can do some weight work, which helps keep muscle mass up and adipose tissue down and seems to even out my moods too during the down cycle of the month. Right now I only have time for yoga once a week, walking an hour a day (back and forth to work) and 1/2 an hour weight lifting four times a week during lunch breaks. Saturday I work on my paintings, read and hang out with my friends and take long walks with my best friend, holding hands with your love is a great meditation lots of lovely sensations to watch come and go. I usually don't do a formal meditation on Saturday just the general light awareness of sensations, thoughts, emotions, and listening. On Sunday I go to a group meditation and also yoga class. Then I go off to work a couple hours as hostess with the mostest at my friends restaurant and by 8pm I'm home and then I do chores to get ready for the coming week. The ritual begins all over again… With Metta, Lisa 44713 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: anusayas. buddhistmedi... Hi Phil and other DSG members - You never fail to come up with great questions, Phil! Your teacher (assuming you have one) must be delighted by your questions and sincere answers. >Tep: <1> How do you "see" anusayas with right understanding > since, unlike the five clinging aggregates, they do not arise > for you to see them? Phil: But we can only think about them, and speculate, and obviously >we are thinking about them through a thick cloud of ignorance. > We can say "panna will know" - it is an easy way to answer > these questions, but I think it's true, don't you? > Faith in the Buddha's teaching tells me so. >We will know real urgency as our wisdom develops, or we won't. T: After emailing you with the above question <1>, I thought it over. I believe the answer is: we should instead observe sensations (vedana) as the one-to-one corresponding variables. That is, raga- nusaya, patigha-nusaya and avijja-nusaya correspond to sukha- vedana, dukkha-vedana and adukkha-ma-sukha-vedana, respectively. Vedananupassana Satipatthana is the tool. "With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance- obsession gets obsessed. That a person -- without abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, without abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, without uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing -- would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible". [MN 148, Chachakka Sutta] --------------------------------- > Phil: What is your motivation to study Dhamma? Is it really to > escape from samsara? If I'm honest with myself, I can't say so. > I am enjoying life so much these days. Of course enlightened > people can enjoy life too, but... T: Death, Phil, is my motivation. As every day is rapidly passing by, I am moving with the same speed toward my last day. Thinking of death, I feel like my hair and clothes are burning, so to speak. ----------------------------------- > Phil: I think of the many suttas in which the Buddha warns that he > who "seeks delight...seeks suffering." (I sometimes think that > enlightened people can "find delight" in an innocuous way > without the unwholesomeness of seeking it.) As long as I am > seeking delight as much as I do, I cannot speak of urgency. T: Precisely! ------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Tep, and all > > > Again, this was referring to a sotapanna, if I recall correctly. I > am always doubtful about urgency for wordlings. Isn't urgency more > often conditioned by fear than by right understanding? My usual > pattern is to become complacent when things are going well, with > suddent bouts of urgency when things are not going well. That is not > the way true urgency (samvega) should be, I imagine. I don't know > yet what real samvega is, only pseudo samvega, which is really about > self struggling to find something reassuring to hold on to, I guess. > > We will know real urgency as our wisdom develops, or we won't. > 44714 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400 buddhistmedi... Hi James - Thank you very much for the vote of confidence. This anapanasati subject is tough and there is much more for me to learn as well as more mistakes to make. Please help me make the Anapanasati Discussion, Part II useful and end with a soft landing. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > (snipped) > You explain this very well. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu! > > Metta, > James 44715 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Hi Twp, One thing to consider is that breath can be an object of either satipatthana or jhana. For that reason I think one has to decide which way one wants to go because they end up in completely different places. Htoo said satipatthana moves one into the present. The present is where reality is found. Or, to put it another way, reality is where the present is found. This isn't intellectual understanding. It is experience. In the consciousness that experiences reality there is no desire, no self view, and no opinions of any kind. This consciousness is perfectly at-home in any situation. In jhana, one wants to avoid the present because it is so changeable. Even when experiencing the jhana factors one wants to keep the nimitta close, guarding it and not letting it slip away. Of course in jhana there is also no desire, no self view, no opinions but one must be very careful about touching reality. If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana, a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This last bit is just my idea :-)) Larry 44716 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:59pm Subject: Re: Asankhata foamflowers > Now, what about the other nine perceptions in AN X.60? > > > Sincerely yours, > > > Tep > > May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness > established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; > your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta > ======== Anguttara Nikaya X.60 Girimananda Sutta Hi Tep, There is much to ponder on here! [1] "And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy." Lisa says: The perception of inconstancy, that which is dependent on other to be will never be in and of itself but always rely on something else to define itself and that causes inconstancy when seeing reality as it is. It is like seeing through layers of gauze when you look through dependent relationships. Viewing this kind of relationship I understand that feelings are inconsistent because they are dependent on my reactions to sensations to become. Perception is inconsistent because it is depends on sense organs and the brain to become. Fabrications: what does that mean, what is the pali word? Does it mean imagination, to imagine that things are independent? Conceptual play, building on thoughts? What I imagine to be real causes inconsistency because they depend on the thought construction to become. Consciousness depends on the eye, the nose, the ear, the feelings, the emotions, and the thoughts to become and all these things are also dependent on other things to become and so the inconstancy continues. If I think this is reality in and of itself and hold onto it as me and mine or not me or mine, when all of this is just dependent relationships and nothing else. Also included in this investigation I ran into the five aggregates, the physical being (rupa); sensation (vedanaa); conception (sanjna); volition (samskara); and consciousness (vijnana).As oposed to the real self. How can many make up one being anyway? ( I had to look up fabrications and that is one of the ten perceptions) the perception of the undesirability of all fabrications, THE THREE MANNANA Mannana means mental images, daydreams, psychological needs unrealistic assumption, egotistic opinion or judgment, imagination as in unrealistic idea or notion, mental image, or pretending to be some one you are not. Ignorant reaction to internal created perception of external sensory experiences that cause mental disorders. 1.tanha-mannana: unrestrained imagination through lust that is craving for the sensual. 2.mana-mannana: unrestrained imagination through conceit; 3.ditthi-mannana: unrestrained imagination through mistaken beliefs. These three kinds of unrestrained imagination or fantasy are also called the three Gahas, or three Holds, to explain their ability to bind tightly. All of this fabrication breeds even more mistakes through actions and thought and it builds up to the point in which we become overwhelmed and our ability to see reality as it is becomes lost in mental fabrication. I also found the words called the three Papancas or Three Multipliers related to this subject. the perception of the undesirability of all fabrications, the perception of not-self, the perception of unattractiveness, the perception of drawbacks, the perception of abandoning, the perception of dispassion, the perception of cessation, the perception of distaste for every world, mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. With Metta, Lisa 44717 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James Thanks for waiting. Picking up where I left off... > > Phil: We in the west are conditioned from childhood to carve out > remarkable lives, to be individualistic, to be independent, to be > self-reliant. I think we are prone to have very strong > self-identities, much stronger, in general, than Asians. > > James: This is a matter of perspective. From my perspective, Asians > tend to have a self-identification based on group membership, but it > is still a strong self-identification. Ph: Yes, the group membership thing, exactly. Self-identity atrophies by cultural pressures. I can't speak for South-East Asia but only East Asia (ie Japan and Korea) based not only on my 10 years here but also an interesting book "The Geography of Thought" in which a Harvard prof survers research on the topic. The conculsions of hundreds of studies is pertty convincing. East Asians tend to indentify themselves in terms of relations with others and stress blending harmoniously into groups. Westerners value individual differences and define themselves in such terms. This is no news, really. It's a cliche that is borne out by this research. But I think it has important implications for the way people approach Dhamma and the errors they can fall into. As I said above, I suspect that Dhamma becomes more of a way of defining and shaping one lifetime rather than eradicating/wiping out identity view. I know in my case if I am honest with myself, at this point I would have to say that Dhamma is a way for me to make my life richer, add meaning to my life, to this one lifetime. If you can say elsewise, with full honestly, you have a better motivation to meditate formally than I possibly could. Thus I appreciate the emphasis this group's founders place on right view. And patience. I think it is very helpful for people who would go down the wrong path if they applied themselves too intentionally to trying to cultivate mindfulness by following instructions. One thing that struck me on one of the talks I listened to was when a fe3llow (Kom?) said that when he started listening to Kh Sujin's talk he was struck by the phrase "vijja doesn't come from avijja" which I gather means "knowledge/understanding doesn't come from ignorance." I'm not sure if I understand what it means, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if we start going to meditation centers, for example, when we are so thickly clouded in ignorance, what can the meditation possibly bring. I think the usual idea is that we sit down in fronbt of the thick curtain of ignorance and try to bore our way through it by applying concentration. I can see why people think this is the way to go, but is it? I see moments of understanding, of being moved beyond the curtain of ignorance momentarily before the understanding falls away as more helpful in the long run. A small moment of piercing the curtain does more in the long run to take down the curtain that bearing down on it with full force. > Phil: I know you've heard this a thousand times before, but I really > think it's true - when we seek techniques and expect results from them > we are operating in a deluded belief that there is a self that can > control cittas - and this is contrary to the teaching that makes the > Buddha unique, the teaching of anatta. > > James: I would be quite willing to accept this perspective if, and > only if, the Buddha taught this. Quote to me where the Buddha taught > this and you will have a convert! Ph: I think the "crossing the flood" sutta (first one in Samyutta Nikaya) gets at this. When we press too hard, strain to get results, we are swet away. If we are negligent and don't apply ourselves at all, we sink. This very subtle point is so important. If you spend a few hours soaking up suttas in khandasamyutta or salayatanasamyutta. reading and reflecting on khandas and the sense bases, you come away steeped in wisdom re the uncontrollability of things - at least I do. We may have different acculations re seeing into the chrateristics of dhammas. Perhaps you have an accumulated understanding of dukkha, so you can have more urgency. Perhaps I have more of an appreciation for anatta, so tend towards patience. Sheer conjecture. And I stress that being patient doesn't mean being passive. We become more sensitive to the truth that moments of mindfulness condition more of the same. I am confident that I am being moved in the right direction - I am not sinking, even as I am not straining too hard. For some reason, I ahve always valued patience. "In patience shall ye possess your soul " (a line from Matthew) has been my motto for about 20 years now, ever since I started to get into "spiritual" endeavours. Again, accumulations from past lives? As for myself, I don't find the > Buddha teaching this at all!! Am I stupid? Did I miss it? I find > the Buddha teaching over and over about concentrated effort to develop > the mind with him giving specific and general instructions. The > Satipatthana Sutta is a very long "How To" discourse on mindfulness- > including techniques and tips (it even includes a timetable of > expected results). To view the Satipatthana Sutta as simply > descriptive of saintly monks and not prescriptive for anyone wishing > to practice mindfulness, as some in this group do, lacks common sense. See above. If people without right understanding apply themlves to those explicit intstructions, will understanding arise from it? I suspect not. The ignorance will just get "thicker" if you will. You will disagree strongly with that statement, and probably consider it blasphemous and worthy of a rebirth in hell. And you know, I appreciate your warnings. I am not closing my mind to what you say. That is why I value these letters, and they are more important that just rambling. > > Phil: If you could write anything that would inspire me towards a more > intentional approach towards developing mindfulness, I would be glad > to hear of it. > > James: Phil, what can I say? Ph: I ahve an intersting story from yesterday. Soon after posting about reflection on the body parts, I cut myself while shaving. Do you know sometimes how you just get a nick, but in certain places it just won't stop bleeding. It happens to me about once a year. It was a lovely day but as I walked to the statin I was so pissed off about this bleeding lip, holding a tissue to it, fretting that it would keep bleeding while I was trying to teach my class. Such a tiny thing, it would seem, but it really irritated me. And it made me reflect on the way form is murderous of the other khandas, how the body and all its various juices really rule us much more than we want to know. So your suggestion helped. The passage you suggested is to be used for reflection on the foulness of the body, according to the sub-head in Bhikkhu Bodhi's anthology. So a more specific purpose than general mindfulness. Anyways, thanks again. You have been reading all of those > writings from Nina, K. Sujin, and listening to those tapes over and > over again, what could I say to reverse all of that conditioning? In > essence, you have been brainwashed- but you did it to yourself. Ph: Yes, brainwashed is a term I have thought of before. One day I read a passage from a post and thought "wow, Nina really puts things well" but then I realized I had written the post. Reading so much of Nina had made me sound like Nina! This *is* a kind of brainwashing. Some people call it parroting, a term I don't like. We repeat valued passages, or teachings, or whatver, again and again, internalize them. You're right, there is strong conditioning there. Fortunately, it is helpfing me to cultivate right understanding. I say that with confidence, but I appreciate your warning. One thing you could do to help me, if you're concenred, is tell me more about how mindfulness arises in your daily life. I know you say that you decided to not to post about daily life because of reaction to your posts in the past or something, but until you tell me more about your mindfulness in daily life, you will remain a bit of a fundamentalist scold to me. Yes, trust the Buddha's word, but also trust examined daily life experience. That's why I enjoy NIna's books. The Buddha's word in the context of daily life. That's what it's all about for me. I don't know enough about your daily life to be deeply impressed by what you say, but I respect your decsion to keep it to yourself. > can tell you to do is to try and see the big picture: The philosophy > of K. Sujin and her followers runs contrary to 2,500 years of Buddhist > practice- practice based on specific and purposeful acts of dana, > mindfulness, meditation, and renunciation. Ph: I guess you missed my posts in which I shared passages from Kh Sujin's Deeds of Merit. Somewhere I read from her that if we don't understand sila and dana, we can't cultivate panna. I think you are under-appreciating the importance she places on dana and sila. I like what Nina said about renunciation. There is renunciation with every moment of kusala, because we are not thinking about satisfying our own needs. Is that bad Dhamma? The teaching of K. Sujin > runs contrary to the purpose and philosophy of the Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni > Sangha. When you buy into this philosophy, you are not becoming a > self-reliant Buddhist with the dhamma as your guide; you are becoming > a cult member with the vision of a Thai worldling as your guide. As > Howard writes, the teaching of K. Sujin is "idiosyncratic"; I would go > even farther: it is downright dangerous! For your own sake, abandon > it before it is too late! (I know this response is blunt and may turn > you off, but, as you accurately comment earlier, I don't do > `diplomacy' ;-)) Ph: I appreciate it, James. I know you deeply care about Dhamma. When you see Kh Sujin's teaching, you see something as wrong as I see in Soka Gakkai, for example. I know how I used to fret about how Soka Gakkai was depriving Japanese people of the benefits of Dhamma. I know how deeply you care. James, may I propose that we keep our exchange to once a week. When you get back to me, I will hold my response until my day off. (Thursdays) Our exchange is important, but these are long letters with an awful lot of rambling (especially on my part) and conjecture and just taking in conventional terms since we can't share the Abhidhamma approach. Thanks again for being a good friend in Dhamma. Metta, Phil 44718 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:03pm Subject: Re: anusayas. philofillet Hi Tep and all thanks as always for your kind words. > T: After emailing you with the above question <1>, I thought it over. I > believe the answer is: we should instead observe sensations > (vedana) as the one-to-one corresponding variables. Ph: You're right in that vedana seems to me to be the most predominant of the khandas. We can experience our feelings, sensations relatively easily compared to moments of bare consciousness. But I still haven't figured out my intellectualunderstandinig of vedana. What is rupa and what is nama of feeling? But I appreciate your pointer toward vedana. I am now reading salayatanasamyutta and next comese vedanasamyutta. Mayne people here love the sutta about seeing feeling come and go as clouds in the sky, blwomn this way and that. But it might not be as easy to observe feelings as we think. Certainly not for me. I have a lot of questions about feeling that haen't come up yet. > > Phil: What is your motivation to study Dhamma? Is it really to > > escape from samsara? If I'm honest with myself, I can't say so. > > I am enjoying life so much these days. Of course enlightened > > people can enjoy life too, but... > > T: Death, Phil, is my motivation. As every day is rapidly passing by, I > am moving with the same speed toward my last day. Thinking of > death, I feel like my hair and clothes are burning, so to speak. Ph: I think awareness of death is the motivation that gets so many people, including me, started out on "spiritual" endeavours. But I wonder if the fear of death doesn't sometimes contain wrong view, because it is all about clinging to one's one lifetime. If there is right understanding that this one lifetime is valuable becuase we are human with the rare opportunity to study dhamma, there is right understanding, but isn't it usually more often "I don't wnna die! I don't wanna stop being me! I don't wanna lose my loved ones!" Will that kind of sorrow and fear necessarily lead to right understanding? I've come to appreciate (only intellectually) death in every moment. Each moment we are falling apart and coming back together again. I want to be grateful for this human life, for the opportunity to study Dhamma, but I think there may countless lifetimes until "I" find enlightenment. Metta, Phil 44719 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Hi Lisa, Welcome to the group from me. I have a comment on one word you used below: Lisa: "The perception of inconstancy, that which is dependent on other to be will never be in and of itself but always rely on something else to define itself and that causes inconstancy when seeing reality as it is. It is like seeing through layers of gauze when you look through dependent relationships." Larry: This idea of defining a dhamma by other dhammas ties in with something I've been thinking about with regard to the difference between the views of Nagarjuna, a Mahayana philosopher, and abhidhamma or the suttas. I expect Nagarjuna would agree with you but abhidhamma would have a qualm. We, as ordinary ignorant beings, often and usually do define one dhamma with another dhamma or combine many dhammas into one, but right view is to see that a dhamma is only just what it is. As the Satipatthana Sutta says, "the body in the body". I think inconstancy is just impermanence. Also you had a question about what the word "fabrications" referred to. I think it's probably "sankhara", often translated as "formations". I think a better translation would be "fabricators" or "formers". The primary examples are desire and intention. Desire fabricates or causes kamma result, proliferates mental and physical activity, and accumulates as habit and latent tendency. In a literal sense a "formation" or combination of dhammas isn't a reality. If it were, chariots and persons would be real. Larry 44720 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 154. (xxxii)-(xxxiii) 'Compassion' and 'gladness' should be understood as given in the Description of the Divine Abodes (Ch.IX,92,94,95), except that those are of the fine-material sphere and have attained to absorption, while these are of the sense sphere. This is the only difference. Some, however, want to include among the inconstant both lovingkindness and equanimity. That cannot be accepted for, as to meaning, non-hate itself is lovingkindness, and specific neutrality is equanimity. 155. (xxxiv)-(xxxvi) 'Abstinence from bodily misconduct': the compound kaayaduccaritavirati resolves as kaayaduccaritato virati; so also with the other two. But as regards characteristic, etc., these three have the characteristic of non-transgression in the respective fields of bodily conduct, etc.; they have the characteristic of not treading there, is what is said. Their function is to draw back from the fields of bodily misconduct, and so on. They are manifested as the not doing of these things. Their proximate causes are the special qualities of faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on. They should be regarded as the mind's averseness from evil-doing. 44721 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - I am interested in the non-transgression charateristic of the 'abstinence from bodily misconduct' (kaayaduccaritavirati ) -- the Commentary sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil-doing is permanent. But since it is just a sankhata dhamma, it has to fall away sooner or later. Therefore, in order to make kaayaduccaritavirati look permanent (not treading), is it necessary that the monk has to constantly condition the "proximate causes" (faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on) such that they continue to arise all the time? But such effort must be very demanding. If my questions don't make sense to you, just tell me so. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > (Snipped). > > 155. (xxxiv)-(xxxvi) 'Abstinence from bodily misconduct': the compound kaayaduccaritavirati resolves as kaayaduccaritato virati; so also with the other two. But as regards characteristic, etc., these three have the characteristic of non-transgression in the respective fields of bodily conduct, etc.; they have the characteristic of not treading there, is what is said. Their function is to draw back from the fields of bodily > misconduct, and so on. They are manifested as the not doing of these > things. Their proximate causes are the special qualities of faith, > conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on. They should be regarded > as the mind's averseness from evil-doing. 44722 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 lbidd2 Tep: "the Commentary sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil-doing is permanent." Hi Tep, The wording in this paragraph is a little confusing. It refers to the three abstinence cetasikas: abstinence from wrong conduct by way of speech, action, and livelihood. The CMA says , "the viratis [abstinences] are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has arisen". So I guess it would be something like not stepping on a bug that crosses your path or not taking what isn't given. When the situation arises there is the sense of the right thing to do; maybe it's conscience or scruples. These cetasikas can accumulate and become habitual. Nina will have a full explanation in a few days. Larry 44723 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 0:38am Subject: Kangaroos, Re-birth and racial/ethnic identification christine_fo... Hello from Cairns, I'm staying with Azita tonight before flying back to Brisbane tomorrow. It has been a lovely few days, seeing Tom, Shakti, and Azita. Lots of dhamma discussion and reflection. Yesterday Azita had to work, and the rest of us visited Tjapukai Aboriginal Cultural Park. We watched some spectacular dancing, listened to singing and didgeridoo playing, learned to throw a boomerang, and to throw spears using a woomera. (May I just modestly mention that I, and I alone, managed to hit a kangaroo with the spear - or rather the Outline of a kangaroo on the target board; and we learned the fascinating and useful hint that when one is hunting kangaroo, one should always carry two spears. Ease the first one under your arm so it carries the scent of your perspiration - cast this spear past your chosen quarry. It (the chosen quarry) will smell the human scent and will hop away from the source on the decoy spear i.e. towards you... then you use your second spear to ... you know ... I suppose ... break the first precept. oh. well.:-() After all the above, we were ushered into an sudio visual presentation from the aborigianal perspective of what happened when the modern world descended upon an ancient culture. It conditioned reflections on what use is there to hold to a national, cultural or ethnic identity as "I", "Me" or "Mine"? For those who accept literal re-birth of the mental continuum, and the fact that the Buddha taught Human rebirth so such a rare, rare event - the last rebirth was more than likely in a form other than human. If, hypothetically, of the last 10 rebirths, five could have been as a fruit fly, two as a salmon, one as a female human in Scotland, one as a Golden Labrador, and the last one as a frigate bird - then why should one be hurt or incensed because the continuum arose this time as a member of an ethnic group whose ancestors suffered oppression? metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 44724 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:33pm Subject: Five times Five ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Five Crucial Core Buddhist Categories: There are five Mental Abilities: Faith, Energy, Awareness, Concentration & Understanding. There are five Rules of Training: Not Killing any being, Not Stealing, Not Lying, Not Sexually Abusing, Not Drinking Alcohol. There are five Clusters of Clinging to: Form, Feeling, Perception, Construction & Consciousness. There are five Mental Hindrances: Sense-Desire, Ill-Will, Lethargy & Laziness, Regret & Restlessness and Doubt & Uncertainty. There are five Destinies right after Death: Hell, Animal Womb, Hungry Ghost, Human Being & Deity. Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 33 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44725 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) dacostacharles Dear Dan, I don't see the real difference between {"Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these things are done, these things result."} The way I see it, if you do either with the right understanding and effort, the results will be the same (i.e., success). Do either with the wrong understanding or effort, the results will be the same (i.e., failure). I think you are getting so caught up in both, a no-I and things arise from conditions, that you are missing the point; therefore you would not succeed. "You" have to look at the sutras as a prescription and the "doing" as the medicine. So yes, "you" must follow the prescription (instructions) in-order for the sense of self and suffering to fade away (get old and die). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. <..> Interesting passages from "Cetasikas" and Vism: > The Visuddhimagga (IV, 63) explains how there can be a greater > sense of urgency and how the mind should be encouraged. We > read: > * > "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be > encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the > exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, > then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense > of urgency. "Should be encouraged" and "should stimulate it by reviewing" sound an awful lot like instructions, do they not? "Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these things are done, these things result." In the first case, there is a sense of "I must do; I am doing"--moha; in the latter case, there is a sense of "These results arose from these conditions"--amoha. "Shoulds" are dangerous traps. 44726 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comparing ... Conceit dacostacharles Conceit does not mean the same thing in English and the English translation of the Buddha's teachings. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christine Forsyth <...> I was discussing Conceit recently - and understand that the Buddha's teaching is that any comparison is a form of conceit, whether superior inferior or equal, as opposed to the everyday version that Conceit is 'blowing one's own trumpet'about one's achievments, successes or status. But after yesterday,it has occurred to me that sometimes making comparisons may be beneficial. <....> 44727 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comparing ... Conceit dacostacharles Dear Christine, Comparisons effect ideas. The Buddha spoke against comparisons because (I think, he was getting tired of) people were getting caught up in-comparing the different teachers of the day. And some were losing sight of what is really important (ref: the Kalama sutra). So the conceit arises do to a type of comparison, not all. The Buddha constantly compared what is considered good and bad (sense of morality). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom <...>, Thank you for your well written reminder. Now, this is not the conceited way of comparing. It is like in the suttas, someone going to the charnel field and seeing a corpse: just as that body so will this body be. It is just a reminder of the truth. Nina. op 17-04-2005 04:26 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > this person had started out just like me, to go to > the city for shopping, with no thought that this was their dying > day ...just like me. And just as he is, so shall I be ... > > Perhaps not all comparisons are odious <...> 44728 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 175 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (f) dacostacharles Hi, For some, the "desire for enlightenment" is rooted in the right understanding throughout all moments. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott <..> 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== When one has just started to develop satipaììhåna, sati does not often arise. One may wonder how many years it will take before there can be any progress. When we think of the goal with desire or when we are afraid of failure there is akusala citta. We may not notice that there is any progress, but even if there is sometimes one moment of mindfulness of a reality appearing through one of the six doors, right understanding can develop little by little. Sati which arises falls away, but it is never lost, it conditions the arising again of sati later on. Instead of having desire for enlightenment we should see the value of right understanding at this moment. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== <...> 44729 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainments dacostacharles It takes the U and 3Ps (even for lay folks): Understanding, and Practice, Practice, Practice. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: kelvin_lwin <..> Hi Evan, As long as the teachings are still available and understood it's still possible. Even if it's not there will always be pacceka- buddhas. > 1. Are there any monks in this time (in the past 100 years say) > that have attained arahantship or any of the other supramundane > attainments? yes, many practice and the most successful ones are the ones who are completely unknown. > 2. Are there any lay people who have attained to any of the fruits > and knowledge of the path? yes, http://www.vri.dhamma.org/newsletters/nl9811.html > 3. Are there any monks who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? many > 4. Are there any lay people who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? if one is devoted enough or have sufficient paramis then why not? - kel <...> 44730 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:49am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I hope I'm not too late to also wish you a good trip with your family and a happy birthday tomorrow. Thank you for your good wishes to us in advance. To be honest, Jon's rather partial to the Disney scary rides, like 'Big Mountain'....maybe after Hong Kong Disney opens at the end of the year, we'll find an excuse as it's a long time since we 'did' the West coast inc Disney:-) Meanwhile, we'll be meeting for a bowl of lunch-time noodles(his favourite)for Jon and the beach for me next week. Just more momentary namas and rupas that we build such long stories about.... --- upasaka@... wrote: ... > I've been having some computer problems recently, Sarah and have > wanted to cut down on list participation anyway with more time spent on > (what I > call ;-) "practice". ... S: ;-) Meanwhile, as Nina says, let us know about your "practice" on the rides with baby Sarah... and enjoy the family time together. Perhaps you'll be able to check in sometime. Otherwise, look forward to hearing from you on return. Thank you again for your comments and reflections on the Hunter thread. Metta, Sarah ========= 44731 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 Â?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/24/05 7:50:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I hope I'm not too late to also wish you a good trip with your family and > a happy birthday tomorrow. ----------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! You're very much in time - we don't leave for the airport until three and a quarter hours from now. ------------------------------------ Thank you for your good wishes to us in> > advance. To be honest, Jon's rather partial to the Disney scary rides, > like 'Big Mountain'....maybe after Hong Kong Disney opens at the end of > the year, we'll find an excuse as it's a long time since we 'did' the West > coast inc Disney:-) > ----------------------------------- Howard: I like them too. The comparable one (I presume) at Disney World (in Orlando, Florida) is called Space Mountain. What we like most, though, is everything at the Epcot theme park there, which has attractions from many nations and also has wonderful science sites. ----------------------------------- Meanwhile, we'll be meeting for a bowl of lunch-time> > noodles(his favourite) for Jon and the beach for me next week. ---------------------------------- Howard: Sounds great to me! ---------------------------------- > > Just more momentary namas and rupas that we build such long stories > about.... > ---------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, I KNOW you just threw that in so that the post becomes "proper" for a Buddhist list!! ;-)) ---------------------------------- > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > ... > > I've been having some computer problems recently, Sarah and have > >wanted to cut down on list participation anyway with more time spent on > >(what I > >call ;-) "practice". > ... > S: ;-) Meanwhile, as Nina says, let us know about your "practice" on the > rides with baby Sarah... and enjoy the family time together. > ---------------------------------- Howard: :-) ----------------------------------- > > Perhaps you'll be able to check in sometime. Otherwise, look forward to > hearing from you on return. > > Thank you again for your comments and reflections on the Hunter thread. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44732 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonabbott@... Hi Evan This post of yours was sent some time ago. Apologies for the delay in replying (and also to other members for the late replies to their posts). Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > The reason I recanted is that there are many objects that can be used as > a kasina for practice which leads to the jhanas. The Buddha taught > meditation on the breath as the most important but he also taught the > use of earth, water etc as kasinas. I don't think he taught the use of a > manta but I could see that is could be used. I would agree that a mantra could aid the development of concentration, but I don't believe it would lead to jhana. I'll try to explain what I mean by this. Jhana is the outcome or culmination of the development of samatha consciousness. Samatha ('tranquillity', 'calm') is a particular kind of kusala performed through the mind-door (that is, there is no accompanying speech or bodily action required). For example, metta and karuna -- genuine friendliness and compassion, spontaneously arisen, towards another being -- are an example of samatha. Now the *development* (bhavana) of samatha implies something more that simply the accumulation of such moments of samatha. The development of metta, or any kind of samatha, to high levels of absorption requires the arising of panna also, panna that sees the value of this particular kind of kusala and the danger in akusala as conditioned by sense-door experiences. Without panna there is only the accumulation of the tendency/quality of metta, but no degree of absorption. In the case of the kasinas, the kusala in question will lie in the way in which the kasina is contemplated. Put simply, there is nothing intrinsically kusala about paying attention to a kasina. There has to be more to it than that. There are details in the texts for those who are interested. The texts seem to suggest that only the objects enumerated by the Buddha in the suttas can support jhana or absorption approaching that. Now while it is no doubt possible to suggest ways in which a mantra or other 'neutral object' (such as a sequence of numbers) could be the object of kusala consciousness, they are not objects the contemplation of which is a condition for panna (of the samatha kind) to arise. As I said in another post recently, (mere) concentration on an object is not itself morally skilful, and even where the object of one's concentration is a 'wholesome' object this is no guarantee that the consciousness will be kusala. While concentration on a neutral object can lead to states that seem to match the description of samatha/jhana in the texts, the concentration is unlikely to be kusala unless the consciousness has been kusala from the outset. This is an area where one's own experience is a notoriously unreliable guide. Jon 44733 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonabbott@... Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >> Thanks for sharing your own experiences. >> As you know, I place considerable importance on the scriptural basis >> of things. I know of no support in the texts for the idea that >> concentration on a neutral object leads to kusala, so I'd be >> interested to hear of any references that you or others may know of. > > ======================== > You may recall from a long time back our "spiral" discussions. > There was a chain of conditions, with calm a condition for > concentration and concentration a condition for wisdom, and you may > recall how the chain is really a spiral, with each factor, ever > enhanced, feeding back to strengthen the "earlier ones", and that > includes concentration supporting an increase in calm. Yes, I do indeed recall that discussion. I can see the basis for what you describe here. As samatha (calm) is developed, concentration increases. That concentration is of course kusala concentration, since calm is a kusala quality. But this is not the same as saying concentration leads to calm. Concentration itself is not inherently kusala. Concentration is kusala if and only if it accompanies kusala citta. > Also, Jon, concentration is a major condition for attaining the jhanas > (characterized by increasing calm - that, BTWm is why it is called > "samatha bhavana"! ;-). Again, the concentration that is a major factor in the jhanas is the concentration that results from the development of (the kusala quality of) calm. > Moreover, Jon, from first-hand knowledge, I know that sustained > concentration on neutral or pleasant object unquestionably induces > calm - there is no more doubt of that than there is of the inability > to breathe leading to distress, or lack of food leading to hunger. But unless are you have a highly developed ability to tell the difference between true calm and subtle clinging (accompanied by neutral feeling), there is always the danger that what appears to be calm may in fact be attachment. > As to concentration on a neutral object leading to kusala, well, > there certainly is textual reference to many such objects leading to > wholesome phenomena, including great calm. Such objects include > kasinas and all the other various meditation subjects listed by > Buddhaghosa, and definitely include the breath (which is certainly > "neutral"). The objects such as kasina, the breath, etc. that are given as suitable objects for the development of samatha are suitable because of their particular significance, not because of their 'neutral' aspect. There is a specific mode of contemplation for each of them, and it is on account of that mode of contemplation that calm, and later concentration, develops. > Jon, were you to give meditation on the breath sensations around the > nose/upper lip a true trial, I have no doubt, unless your scepticism > is even stronger than I think, that you will quickly and easily > observe calm and peace grow in your mind. I am not the least bit sceptical about samatha (including anapanasati), but only about some of the ideas about it that I read from time to time ;-)). Like for example that it is just a matter of concentrating on a neutral object. Jon 44734 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonabbott@... Geoff I think your suggestion (in another post) to stick to common ground is a good one. I have brought up one such area already, namely, the development of the path at the present moment as we read or compose posts, and would like to continue our discussion further. You said: > J: what would you see as being the development of > vipassana/panna as one is reading this post or composing a reply; or > what passages from the texts do you see as addressing this > occasion/situation? > --------------- > Aniccanupassana would be a good place to start :-)). I don't > think there's much disagreement here (although I don't think > clear seeing, i.e. vipassana, of 17 cittas per rupa, etc., is > necessary for panna -- and could quite possibly be another merely > theoretical notion of the commentators). I'm not sure what you mean by 'aniccanupassana'. Could you elaborate further? To make my question more explicit. Even for those who see the development of the mundane jhanas as being crucial, the fact remains that for most of the time, like now, there is no such 'practice'. What do you see as the 'practice' for all those 'ordinary' times in the day? Turning to a couple of other points from your message... > J: if I have understood you correctly, you take the view > that those same disciples must have attained mundane jhana (even > though there is no indication of this in the suttas in question > either), and I think you see this as a matter of doctrine. I'd be > interested to know the passages that proclaim this doctrine ------- > I see this, not as a matter of doctrine (I view the path as being > functional and not fundamentalist), ... I meant simply, something expressly declared by the Buddha in the suttas, rather than an inference drawn from the circumstances described there. I don't think functionalism vs. fundamentalism comes into it here ;-)) [The path itself cannot be 'fundamentalist', as that describes the way of thinking of a person, nor 'functional' for that matter. Nor can 'fundamentalist' apply to the teachings themselves, although perhaps 'functional' can.] > ... but as a matter of pragmatism, based on my own experience (not > that I'm claiming any > supramundane paths/fruitions), and the experience of highly realized > teachers such as Ajahn Chah, as I interpret what they`re > teaching. But if a particular view cannot be related back to the texts themselves, then I think the alarm bells should start to ring, no matter what the weight of the authority on its side. As regards the relevance of one's own experience, to my way of thinking there is a considerable danger here of one's wrong view and ignorance colouring the position and giving a false reading. It is easy for 'pragmatism' to be a rationale for following our own ideas, rather than giving proper consideration to ideas expressed in the texts that do not have immediate appeal. Take the following statement: > IMO the three lower paths/fruitions are not a one shot affair, after > which there's no possibility of regression even if > one undergoes no further bhavana. Such a view is overly idealistic and > doesn't take into account the complexity of the conditioned > mind or human behavior. I think it's fair to say that the suggestion that there's no possibility of regression after attaining the first path (stream entry) directly contradicts the suttas. It surprises me that you would consider this something about which you could come to your own conclusion. > J: is it the fact that samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path is > defined in terms of the 4 jhanas, or are there other specific passages > also? > --------- > Yes, it seems clear to me that jhana in the sutta sense, is an > essential path factor for all of the above mentioned reasons (and > probably many more). The path is a very subtle integration of sila, > samadhi, and panna. According to the ancient texts, the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are the factors that are present at a moment of path-consciousness (enlightenment). At that moment, the concentration factor is of the intensity of jhana. Jon 44735 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo jonabbott@... Send Email Hi Tep I'm enjoying your Anapanasati and Mahanidana threads. Just a comment on an issue you raise below. Tep Sastri wrote: > Recently Mike and Nina pointed out that breathing was a concept which > made it "unqualified" as object of satipatthana. I also have heard the > suggestion that Anapanasati is samatha bhavana because the breath is > not an ultimate reality. But those who study the Anapanasati Sutta > know that the full version of Anapanasati consists of four tetrads for > kayanupassana satipatthana, vedananupassana satipatthana, > cittanupassana satipatthana, and dhammanupassana satipatthana - all > four in one. This fact suggests that anapanasati and Satipatthana are > very compatible (like water and milk?). Does this imply that it > doesn't matter that the breath is a concept or a rupa -- as long as it > works as an effective meditation object that was used by and > recommended by the Buddha? Mindfulness of breathing is listed among the objects of samatha, the highest development of which is the jhanas. As such, anapanasati is 'of great fruit, of great benefit'. What the Anapanasati Sutta describes, however, is more than the development of anapanasati leading to the jhanas; it describes how a person developing anapanasati can also develop insight at the same time, so that both the jhanas and enlightenment are attained. In other words, it describes anapanasati (the samatha development) plus insight development. As regards the latter, this involves the 4 anupassanas (foundations/establishments) which, as we know, embrace all dhammas as object of insight. This aspect of insight development is I believe the meaning of the passage "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination" and the detailed description elaborating on that. Jon PS Many thanks for the birthday wishes. As regards enlightenment, let's just say I'm thankful for whatever development of the path there can be ;-)) >From M. 118 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. ... [16] ... "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "[1] Now, on whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, discerns that he is breathing out long; ... [4] ... "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. ..." 44736 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - Maybe the "little confusion" is caused by the implication of the term "abstinences" . Intentional refraining from wrong conducts until the habit sticks (one kind of sanna is completely replaced by another?) like you said, makes lots of sense to me. Nina's full explanation on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "the Commentary sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil- doing > is permanent." > > Hi Tep, > > The wording in this paragraph is a little confusing. It refers to the > three abstinence cetasikas: abstinence from wrong conduct by way of > speech, action, and livelihood. The CMA says , "the viratis > [abstinences] are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally > refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has > arisen". ... ... .... > Larry 44737 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Jon buddhistmedi... Dear Jon - It was nice to read your thoughtful email about Anapanasati, Jon. The sutta quote you have given with your comments show me that you are clear about the practical benefits Without a question, clear knowing and (eventually) release is our supreme goal in practicing the Noble Eightfold Path < "As regards enlightenment, let's just say I'm thankful for whatever development of the path there can be" ;-)) > Thank you for the always kind words and support. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > I'm enjoying your Anapanasati and Mahanidana threads. Just a comment on > an issue you raise below. > ... ... 44738 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: On Control - Request for Hasitappada's Participation buddhistmedi... Hi Charles (Hasituppada) - The proof is in the pudding, they say. Similarly, I can say that your meditation skills and experiential knowledge of vipassana give a great taste to your discussion. Since I need a great cook to help me make the puddings on Anapanasati and Mahanidana Sutta, so if you are not too busy, will you please join us cooking? Thank you in advance. Respectfully yours, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > Dear Swee Boon, > > If that was your interpretation you sould have said so. I do not > know what "control" is in Pali. One has to be careful in the use of > words in interpreting Pali texts. "Control" has a different > conceptual connotation. Stop, suppress, ignore, leave out, have the > implication of someone arranging or ordering things. One can > ofcourse discuss whether your interpretation is correct or wrong. > That would not be discussing the Sutta > > With regard to meditation, these words have no meaning. When a > thought arises in the mind, what ever the "quality" of the thought, > you merely become aware of the thought without reacting to it. > There is no suppressing, ignoring, controlling or stopping. If the > same thought comes over and over again you let in another thought, > "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of another to > remove it". > > When an emotion of anger arises in the mind be aware you have anger > and that will "stop", reaction to that thought. You should not go > beyond the thought, to "control" its arising. It is bare attention > that is necessary. > > with metta, > Hasituppada. > 44739 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 nilovg Hi Tep, op 24-04-2005 04:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I am interested in the non-transgression charateristic of the 'abstinence > from bodily misconduct' (kaayaduccaritavirati ) -- the Commentary > sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil-doing is permanent. --------- N: As Larry explained: <"the viratis[abstinences] are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has arisen". > Thus, when there is an opportunity for transgressing, the viratis may operate, provided there are the right conditions for them. They are cetasikas, thus, very momentary. --------- T: But > since it is just a sankhata dhamma, it has to fall away sooner or later. > Therefore, in order to make kaayaduccarita virati look permanent (not > treading),... --------- N: Not treading refers to the fact that the three viratis each have their own field, that is all. One does not tread on the field of the other. Thus, when there is abstinence from bad speech, there is not at the same time abstinence from wrong action. Each citta only has one object at a time. -------- T: is it necessary that the monk has to constantly condition > the "proximate causes" (faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, > and so on) such that they continue to arise all the time? But such effort > must be very demanding. ---------- N:The proximate causes arise with the mahaa-kusala citta. One of the three viratis, if it arises, arises with the mahaa-kusala citta and, as we have seen, that citta is also supported by many sobhana cetasikas, such as faith, conscience, shame, non-attachment. There is no person who can constantly condition wholesome qualities. They depend on the right conditions. Each of them is very momentary, a cetasika accompanying kusala citta that falls away immediately. But,as Larry explains, they are accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again. **** Nina. 44740 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:22am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 - thanks buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (and Larry) - This is another occasion that you have corrected my misunderstanding that stems from lacking clear knowledge of the citta ("Each citta only has one object at a time") and viratis. I truly appreciate being corrected. ---------------------- N: 'Not treading' refers to the fact that the three viratis each have their own field, that is all. One does not tread on the field of the other. Thus, when there is abstinence from bad speech, there is not at the same time abstinence from wrong action. Each citta only has one object at a time. T: Thank you for your right explanation on the micro-behavior of the citta! The right words that throw lights on my doubt (and make it disappeared) are: "when there is abstinence from bad speech, there is not at the same time abstinence from wrong action". My misunderstanding was that when we were able to achieve abstinence in wrong doings, all three modes(action, speech and thought) would be simultaneously right and continue to be so. ---------------- N: There is no person who can constantly condition wholesome qualities. They depend on the right conditions. Each of them is very momentary, a cetasika accompanying kusala citta that falls away immediately. But, as Larry explains, they are accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again. T: Can I, then, say that because of the accumulation and impermanent cetasikas, though it appears to our eyes that the Arahant is constantly 'in control' of wholesomeness, but actually the Arahant's wholesome qualities are not solid -- they fall away and arise like waves in the ocean? Thanks to larry's humbleness -- he did not claim that he was right. [But the fact still is that he was right. ] Respectfully yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 24-04-2005 04:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > I am interested in the non-transgression charateristic of the 'abstinence > > from bodily misconduct' (kaayaduccaritavirati ) -- the Commentary > > sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil-doing is permanent. > --------- 44741 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Asankhata foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Lisa, > > Welcome to the group from me. I have a comment on one word you used > below: Hi larry, So nice to meet you as well! I am looking forward to our interation and sharing of Dhamma on this board. Lisa: "The perception of inconstancy, that which is dependent on other to be will never be in and of itself but always rely on something else to define itself and that causes inconstancy when seeing reality as it is. It is like seeing through layers of gauze when you look through dependent relationships." [Larry:] This idea of defining a dhamma by other dhammas ties in with something I've been thinking about with regard to the difference between the views of Nagarjuna, a Mahayana philosopher, and abhidhamma or the suttas. I expect Nagarjuna would agree with you but abhidhamma would have a qualm. We, as ordinary ignorant beings, often and usually do define one dhamma with another dhamma or combine many dhammas into one, but right view is to see that a dhamma is only just what it is. As the Satipatthana Sutta says, "the body in the body". I think inconstancy is just impermanence. [Lisa] In what context do you use Dhamma or dhamma in your objection? My explanation is not from Mahayana or Nagarjuna but from my own exploration and breaking habitual reactions to unpleasant or pleasant sensations. What body do you think body is? How can there be a body in a body? The body is made of of many, many things that are not a body at all. So what body do you talk about external and internal as in 'body in the body'? [Larry] Also you had a question about what the word "fabrications" referred to. I think it's probably "sankhara", often translated as "formations". I think a better translation would be "fabricators" or "formers". The primary examples are desire and intention. Desire fabricates or causes kamma result, proliferates mental and physical activity, and accumulates as habit and latent tendency. In a literal sense a "formation" or combination of dhammas isn't a reality. If it were, chariots and persons would be real. [Lisa] Sankhara is a complicated word and it has many definitions I agree on your definition in this context as in patterns that manifest into mental and physical actions. [Lisa] What do you mean by 'real' as in chariots and persons? A truck and driver are very real to me when it is bearing down on me as I cross a cross walk here in Chicago. But my reaction to this truck may not be based on reality as it is! With Metta, Lisa 44742 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 175 - desire. nilovg Hi Charles D.C., op 24-04-2005 12:28 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > When we think of the goal with > desire or when we are afraid of failure there is akusala citta. Instead of having > desire for enlightenment we should see the value of right > understanding at this moment. --------------- Ch: For some, the "desire for enlightenment" is rooted in the right understanding > throughout all moments. ----------- N: Sometimes desire is wholesome desire, kusala chanda, and sometimes it is akusala, clinging. Mostly it is the kind of desire with clinging to a result. See above, I was speaking in the context of akusala. Nina. 44743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. nilovg Hi Jon and Tep, I looked again at the text. Kh Sujin was explaining how Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Her answer was: through satipatthana, by using it as an object of insight. Nina. op 24-04-2005 15:17 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when > developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their > culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, > bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven > factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & > release to their culmination. 44744 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 nilovg Hi Tep, I would not think so much of sañña, rather on the accumulation of kusala, as Larry and you also imply. The accumulation of sobhana cetasikas. Nina. op 24-04-2005 15:40 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Hi Larry - > > Maybe the "little confusion" is caused by the implication of the > term "abstinences" . Intentional refraining from wrong conducts until the > habit sticks (one kind of sanna is completely replaced by another?) > like you said, makes lots of sense to me. 44745 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 - thanks nilovg Hi Tep, That is right, also the arahat's citta and cetasikas are momentary, that is their impermanent nature. Nina. op 24-04-2005 19:22 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > T: Can I, then, say that because of the accumulation and impermanent > cetasikas, though it appears to our eyes that the Arahant is > constantly 'in control' of wholesomeness, but actually the Arahant's > wholesome qualities are not solid -- they fall away and arise like > waves in the ocean? 44746 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:52am Subject: Review of the last DSG Message on Mahanidana & Comy buddhistmedi... Hello, everyone - Message # 31644 : Here Sarah discussed with Ken O the Commentary on how the Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada) was so deep that even the profound Venerable Ananda "had failed to fully appreciate", because the Dependent Arising only "appeared deep" to him. She went on to say : "I think it also stresses why it is deeper and deeper understanding rather than any `cosmetic' avoidance of particular situations that has to be developed". Sarah also quoted from from the "Dispeller" (Sammohavinodanii, PTS transl, Classif. of the Structure of Conditions, 662) on the relationship between ignorance and the 4 Noble Truths. The key points of her quotes are given below : --The ignorance about the four truths can prevent one from recognising the fruit of merit (Sarah: i.e kusala vipaka) as sufferings, and "so he initiates the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental formation". -- Failing to see that the "fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds aforesaid". -- "Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of sense-desire, etc. and the results thereof, through [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and being overcome by defilements, he initiates the formation of demerit occurring in the three doors". S: So ignorance of dependent origination and of the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all formations, including wholesome or profitable volitions, even of arupa jhanas, propels the cycle continuously from moment to moment, life to life `like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city'. Tep: Sarah was right to link the 'ignorance of paticcasamuppada' to perpetual rotation of the wheel of samsara. Avijja is the origination of the entire "mass of stress & suffering", therefore, when ignorance ceases, so must dukkha. "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes (all objects) as something separate". [SN XXXV.80 Avijja Sutta] Tep's Note: This DSG message (# 31644) is the last in my "preview" of the Mahanidana Sutta discussion here, before we actually begin our review of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Great Discourse on Causation" ( my book may arrive approximately 7 - 10 days from today). Respectfully, Tep ======= 44747 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:01pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Well, you have given me a lot to chew on with these two posts! ;-)) I will reply to both of them in one post and I hope it isn't too long: Phil: But I think if you let go of the points that bug you, you can find aspects of Abhidhamma that will be helfpul. James: Phil, I think you still don't get it as to why I don't jibe with the Abhidhamma. It is not that there are particular things about it which "bug" me; I don't really see the point to the entire thing. Is the Abhidhamma necessary for enlightenment? Even those who really like the Abhidhamma have to admit that: No, the Abhidhamma isn't necessary for enlightenment. So then, I don't feel it necessary to spend my time on something that isn't necessary. It's a mind trip, a thinker's passion, a brain doodle- what purpose does it serve? I am a Buddhist in the yogic, practice tradition: the way Theravada was before the advent of the Abhidhamma and the arrival of Buddhaghosa. Read the letter from B. Bodhi he wrote to this list- the suttas are the way of practice, the Abhidhamma and (some) commentaries are the way of theorizing. Phil: I'm still hoping James will have a Road to Damascus moment and become a fellow devotee, and I still have this feeling it might happen... :) James: I really hope that doesn't happen. I want to remain a practicing Buddhist… Phil: I think there is no way to fully benefit from Abhidhamma (and therefore the Buddha's teaching in general, in my opinion) if we insist on understanding everything before we believe in it. James: The Buddha invited everyone to test for themselves as to what he was teaching was true or not; he didn't ask anyone to believe him based on faith. (And he wouldn't ask anyone to *believe* there are 17 cittas during every rise and fall of rupa; if he taught this, it would have to be possible to know this for oneself.) Phil: There is a middle way there, of course. If I wasn't experiencing some moments of real understanding of and benefits from Abhidhamma by now, it would be foolish to keep believing in the not-yet-understandable. James: I don't know what benefits you have been getting from your Abhidhamma studies. As I read between the lines, I see some negative things in your life: increased alienation from your wife, being "spaced out" quite often, inability to write creatively, and quick outbursts of anger and frustration. Now, nobody's perfect, but the goal of dhamma practice is to become happier and more peaceful, to get along better with others, and to understand yourself more- until ultimately reaching liberation. It seems to me that your Abhidhamma studies are making you live in your mind rather than live in the world. Phil: Thus I appreciate the emphasis this group's founders place on right view. And patience. I think it is very helpful for people who would go down the wrong path if they applied themselves too intentionally to trying to cultivate mindfulness by following instructions. James: People will not follow any wrong path if they follow the teachings of the Buddha. I am not convinced that the "Right View" advocated by the founders of this group is the "Right View" taught by the Buddha. Phil: I think the usual idea is that we sit down in fronbt of the thick curtain of ignorance and try to bore our way through it by applying concentration. I can see why people think this is the way to go, but is it? I see moments of understanding, of being moved beyond the curtain of ignorance momentarily before the understanding falls away as more helpful in the long run. A small moment of piercing the curtain does more in the long run to take down the curtain that bearing down on it with full force. James: This is an interesting theory, but is this what the Buddha taught? You see, the Buddha didn't teach this type of approach, he taught that people should put everything into the practice if they want to achieve liberation. Remember, the Buddha left his palace and money, left his wife and child, shaved his head and donned a yellow robe. Does that sound like a "small moment of piercing the curtain"? After the Buddha reached enlightenment, he encouraged others to leave the householder life to devote their entire life to the practice. What do you think they were doing: just going around begging for food and waiting for "small moments of understanding" to pop up? Phil, you are preaching a watered-down version of Buddhism which isn't likely to get anyone anywhere. I have changed my mind, I will respond to the rest of your second post with another post. This one is getting too long and I have to go to bed. Take care. Metta, James 44748 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control - Request for Hasitappada's Participation dacostacharles Dear Hasituppada, No matter how you look at it, you are still trying to control either yourself or/and the thought. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > Dear Swee Boon, > > If that was your interpretation you sould have said so. I do not > know what "control" is in Pali. One has to be careful in the use of > words in interpreting Pali texts. "Control" has a different > conceptual connotation. Stop, suppress, ignore, leave out, have the > implication of someone arranging or ordering things. One can > ofcourse discuss whether your interpretation is correct or wrong. > That would not be discussing the Sutta > > With regard to meditation, these words have no meaning. When a > thought arises in the mind, what ever the "quality" of the thought, > you merely become aware of the thought without reacting to it. > There is no suppressing, ignoring, controlling or stopping. If the > same thought comes over and over again you let in another thought, > "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of another to > remove it". > > When an emotion of anger arises in the mind be aware you have anger > and that will "stop", reaction to that thought. You should not go > beyond the thought, to "control" its arising. It is bare attention > that is necessary. > > with metta, > Hasituppada. 44749 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:17pm Subject: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah or Jon - Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions at the end of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". They are quite interesting - some are challenging. I had tried to find those answers at the "Files" section, but couldn't find them. Thank you much! Sincerely, Tep =========== 44750 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Hi Lisa, You asked some complex questions but I'll try to answer them simply. Lisa: "In what context do you use Dhamma or dhamma in your objection?" Larry: By "dhamma" I mean object of consciousness, though there are other ways to use that word. Lisa: "What body do you think body is? How can there be a body in a body? The body is made of of many, many things that are not a body at all. So what body do you talk about external and internal as in 'body in the body'?" Larry: By "body" I mean rupa. In the Satipatthana Sutta there is the phrase, "a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief". So contemplating the body in the body is consciousness of whatever rupa arises in consciousness with the understanding that this rupa is not the feeling associated with it, not its history or associations with similar rupas, not an evaluation of it, and not some idea of it. It is just what it is, the sensation of hardness as you take a step, for example. Because it is only what it is there is no covetousness and grief, imo. Lisa: "What do you mean by 'real' as in chariots and persons? A truck and driver are very real to me when it is bearing down on me as I cross a cross walk here in Chicago. But my reaction to this truck may not be based on reality as it is!" Larry: Objects of consciousness are either concepts or realities. A concept is either a name or an idea. A reality is either something that arises, ages, and ceases, or nibbana. You might say that a truck or person arises, ages, and ceases, but if someone questioned you, where is the truck or person? Is the truck or person any of its parts? Is there such a phenomenon as a group, collection, or wholeness of parts? Where is it? Person and truck are ideas but the ultimate reference of these ideas is reality. So to spare the continuity of these realities, person and truck should get out of each other's way, conventionally speaking. For purposes of examining the reality of experience and diminishing "covetousness and grief" analytical distinctions should be made. Overall, these are deep questions and I have only answered in a superficial way. The best answer comes from direct experience. Is any of this applicable to your experience or do you see it otherwise? Whether you know Nagarjuna or not, you were essentially talking about emptiness. In the context of the above I understand "emptiness" to be the emptiness of concepts in their being empty of reality. You were relating emptiness to conditioned arising, saying that an experience is empty because it arises dependent on conditions. Conditions being part of its identity, what it is, it is essentially unfindable because there are many conditions. So what you have implied is that an experience is a collection. To my thinking a collection is a concept. My comment was to inject the notion of ultimate reality into this formulation with the implication that ultimate reality isn't empty in the sense of being empty of reality. Hope that makes sense, but whether it does or doesn't, feel free to have at it. None of this is entirely orthodox and I may not have accurately represented your views. Larry 44751 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:08pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi Larry, all, > Htoo said satipatthana moves one into the present. The > present is where reality is found. Or, to put it another way, reality > is where the present is found. This isn't intellectual understanding. > It is experience. Recently I thought and came to the same conclusion, if I understand you right. I was thinking about the meaning of `present moment' and how this is understood better as one understands dhammas. After all as you say, "reality is where the present is found". This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. So we can keep talking about the importance of understanding the moment, but if there has not been any satipatthana, then the `present moment' will forever remain just an `idea'. Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least comes to understand the difference between wrong and right sati and also realities and concepts. So even though the moments of right practice are very rare, the inclination to `wrong' practice nevertheless decreases. It is better to have only intellectual understand of what is and what is not the path, than to follow the wrong one, mistaking it for the right. The latter I think, will forever miss the `present moment' but would of course think otherwise. I am glad that you appreciate the distinction between reality and concept based on `experience' and not just logical reasoning. :-) Metta, Sukinder 44752 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Tep: "Recently I thought and came to the same conclusion, if I understand you right." Hi Tep, I agree, same view. I'm glad you are reviving this topic. It always shows me something new. Larry 44753 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:29pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James James, the below and other things in your letter will be very helpful for reflection. Thanks, amigo. As it happens, I was reflecting on this very question (how Abhidhamma has benefited me) yesterday as I walked by the riverside (spaced-out?) I'll get back to you on my day off. This letter you wrote is a very good example of why I value your friendship. Metta, Phil > James: I don't know what benefits you have been getting from your > Abhidhamma studies. As I read between the lines, I see some negative > things in your life: increased alienation from your wife, being > "spaced out" quite often, inability to write creatively, and quick > outbursts of anger and frustration. Now, nobody's perfect, but the > goal of dhamma practice is to become happier and more peaceful, to get > along better with others, and to understand yourself more- until > ultimately reaching liberation. It seems to me that your Abhidhamma > studies are making you live in your mind rather than live in the world. > > 44754 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - I am sorry that I did not reply to one important message (# 44715) of yours yesterday. Today your next message (#44752 ) came and I realized that I had missed the one earlier! So please allow me to answer both here. T: I agree with you on the following point you made in this message: "In the consciousness that experiences reality there is no desire, no self view, and no opinions of any kind". But I am not sure I understand what you wrote about Jhana : "In jhana, one wants to avoid the present because it is so changeable". How could you avoid the present while your consciousness was on the object of the present moment? L: If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana, a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This last bit is just my idea :-)) T: An interesting idea, Larry. But what advantages would a conceptual object offer you (in each of the three cases)? --------------------- [ # 44752] L: > I agree, same view. I'm glad you are reviving this topic. It always > shows me something new. > However, since neither one of us is a real expert in Anapanasati, we have to be very careful -- not to stick our necks too far out ! Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "Recently I thought and came to the same conclusion, if I > understand you right." > > Hi Tep, > 44755 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Dear Azita, We agree that dhammas come and go too quickly to be caught and controlled and that it is impossible, for example, to direct sati to a predetermined object. Isn't it also impossible to dictate the nature of cetana? I suspect the doctor or nurse who risks deregistration for refusing to perform [legal] operations is making the same mistake as the insubordinate bomb-release officer. They might (or might not) be conventionally praiseworthy, but they are ultimately misguided. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and others on this thread, . . . > Azita: I want to clarfy that the above event took place prior to my > having heard the dhamma - about 30 years ago. > These days I would firmly decline the position of assisting > anyone perform abortions as I believe it to be akusala kamma. > 44756 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:40pm Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life philofillet Hi Tep > Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions at the end > of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". I can help with this question. If you try to answer the questions yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give you very helfpul feedback. I say that from experience because I've been doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. I hope you do answer them. Maybe post the quesions first, so we all have a chance to reflect on them. Thanks in advance! Metta Phil 44757 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Hi Tep, Here's some quick thoughts: L: "In jhana, one wants to avoid the present because it is so changeable". T: "How could you avoid the present while your consciousness was on the object of the present moment?" Larry: In jhana your consciousness isn't on the present moment. It's on the sign, an idea. L: "If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana, a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This last bit is just my idea:-))" T: "An interesting idea, Larry. But what advantages would a conceptual object offer you (in each of the three cases)?" Larry: The last case is the interesting one. Conventional realty (ideas) is what all our hopes and fears are based on. So, insight into the ultimate nature of that could be said to be getting at the heart of the problem. However, this isn't just concept. It is concept that references reality in some way. Even though breathing is a concept there is a reality in there somewhere. In that mix of concept and reality could be said to be a middle way between is and isn't. Just thought. Larry 44758 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asankhata foamflowers Larry: By "dhamma" I mean object of consciousness, though there are other ways to use that word. Larry: By "body" I mean rupa. In the Satipatthana Sutta there is the phrase, "a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief". So contemplating the body in the body is consciousness of whatever rupa arises in consciousness with the understanding that this rupa is not the feeling associated with it, not its history or associations with similar rupas, not an evaluation of it, and not some idea of it. [[It is just what it is, the sensation of hardness as you take a step, for example. Because it is only what it is there is no covetousness and grief, imo.]] [Lisa]If I understand you correctly the "the body in the body" is directly looking at sensation without the overlay of conceptual thought. As in labels for objects being a concept rather than reality as it is. Such as, I see a chair but actually I am thinking chair rather than understanding that the chair is actually parts of other things, like wood, fabric, glue, and nails. I don't want to have to do that every time I look at an object and I'm skirting very close to a Mahayana concept of emptiness. Understanding the label chair is empty of chairness and the many parts of what makes up a chair are also empty of chairness and the idea that was thought up to build the chair is also empty of chairness. The word chair is a lable, the form of chair is just parts and the idea that thought up the chair is a mental formation and not a chair. There is no chair. To unbind from this habitual labeling of objects I should view the sensation of the chair that arises when eye contacts the object that memory and habit has labeled "the chair" rather than thinking "the word chair". Just viewing the sensations rather than playing with labels right? [Larry] Whether you know Nagarjuna or not, you were essentially talking about emptiness. In the context of the above I understand "emptiness" to be the emptiness of concepts in their being empty of reality. You were relating emptiness to conditioned arising, saying that an experience is empty because it arises dependent on conditions. Conditions being part of its identity, what it is, it is essentially unfindable because there are many conditions. So what you have implied is that an experience is a collection. To my thinking a collection is a concept. [Lisa:] "The perception of inconstancy, that which is dependent on other to be will never be in and of itself but always rely on something else to define itself and that causes inconstancy when seeing reality as it is. It is like seeing through layers of gauze when you look through dependent relationships." [Lisa] From " Buddhist Thought in India" by Edward Conze, [68] " The Vibhasha says that through the three 'doors' we view things from the point of view of the antidote, the objective support and the intention. (1) Emptiness is the antidote to the 'false view of individuality', and opposes the notions of 'I' and 'mine', (2) the Signless rejects all objects, of eye, ear, or any other sense, and (3) the Wishless is the absence of all intentions (asaya) or plans (pranidhana) in respect of any dharma of the triple world, although there is some striving as regards the Path. I don't like using the word emptiness it is not very helpful when understanding how things are dependent on each other to be what they are and therefore impermanent and subject to dissolution and if grasped with aversion or craving the cause of suffering. Something that is dependent on other to be can never be in and of itself and there for it is subject to inconsistencies. My body is dependent on so many things that are also dependent on so many other things...If my heart gives out I am dead and I do depend on this heart to be here right now. I could go on for ever with this form of reductionism. It was very useful in helping me let go of my view of the body being me and also letting go of my fear of death. But that's about it. My body is still here and subject to squashing if a truck hits it and that is pretty real to me and I take care not to get squashed I look both ways when crossing the street. [Larry] My comment was to inject the notion of ultimate reality into this formulation with the implication that ultimate reality isn't empty in the sense of being empty of reality. [Lisa] I had never thought of that as a collection or conceptualization, your right it is and I can let go of it. But when it comes to the ultimate reality that goes way beyond words and talking about it gives me a headache..... Thanks! I mean thanks for bring up the attachment to lists and collections and taking a look at emptiness as a concept 'the emptiness of emptiness.' When I pick up a can of beans I don't eat the label I open the can and heat the beans up and eat them that is pretty real to me! With Metta, Lisa 44759 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:43pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 176 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala viriya, right effort, which performs its function of strengthening and supporting citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and in that way there can be perseverance to develop right understanding. It takes great patience and courage, even heroic fortitude, to persevere with mindfulness of all kinds of realities which appear, also of akusala dhammas we would rather shun as object of mindfulness. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44760 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Chris & Phil), I think Phil's suggestion is a very good one....we haven't kept any 'model' answers aside that I recall. In any case, any further answers or discussion is always useful for further reflection for everyone. Others may join in too. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris did give a summary of links for earlier discussions of ADL, I think. Maybe, you could repost this if you have it handy, Chris. --- Philip wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > > Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions at the > end > > of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". > > I can help with this question. If you try to answer the questions > yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give you > very helfpul feedback. I say that from experience because I've been > doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. I hope you do answer > them. Maybe post the quesions first, so we all have a chance to reflect > on them. Thanks in advance! ... 44761 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi Larry, Tep, all, Last time you mistook my response for Tep's, but, no problem. > L: "If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could > take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of > anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana, > a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This > last bit is just my idea:-))" > > T: "An interesting idea, Larry. But what advantages would a conceptual > object offer you (in each of the three cases)?" > > Larry: The last case is the interesting one. Conventional realty (ideas) > is what all our hopes and fears are based on. So, insight into the > ultimate nature of that could be said to be getting at the heart of the > problem. However, this isn't just concept. It is concept that references > reality in some way. Even though breathing is a concept there is a > reality in there somewhere. In that mix of concept and reality could be > said to be a middle way between is and isn't. Just thought. It is true that when conventional reality is the object of consciousness, many ultimate realities arise and fall that can be known with sati and panna. This is why I think, daily life is ideal for practice. But when will any level of sati and panna arise is beyond control, this is true for both samatha and satipatthana. So why choose a particular object such as breath? Is there some idea that this is more conducive to the arising of either or both levels of sati? The middle way is when a reality is the object of consciousness. Prior to this is the intellectual understanding of the nature of these same realities. I don't think it is as you state //in that mix of concept and reality//. Metta, Sukinder 44762 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers, Supports, causes etc sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha & All, --- matheesha wrote: > One of Geoff's answers sparked off a memory which I would like to know > a bit more about. It is about the buddha talking about knowing a list > of things like near causes, supports, the danger, the cessation, etc of > some dhamma. I seem to recall coming across this in a sutta and i think > it is mentioned quite a bit in the commentaries. I feel it might be a > structural pattern for invesitgation into the dhamma, and that to me is > very interesting practice point. If anyone knows more about it, any > info will be welcome. ... S: I don't think anyone replied to this and I'm not quite sure what you are referring to. Maybe Geoff will recall or you can find his post which sparked off your memory. The only things I can think of are the 4 kinds of kamma which Htoo wrote about recently #44664 or the near and far enemies etc of the brahma viharas. Oh unless it is the proximate cause, function, characteristic, manefestation of dhammas...:-/ Perhaps I'm being dense here...let's try to get to the bottom of this... Metta, Sarah ======= 44763 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 sarahprocter... Hi Larry & All, I thought you gave a really helpful explanation below. I found the following reminder from the Vism most useful too (with regard to the virati or abstentions): "Their proximate casuses are the special qualities of faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on." Confidence in the Dhamma, in kusala (wholesome qualities) of all kinds, scruples, seeing the danger in akusala (unwholesome qualities), not being greedy, fewness of wishes....contentedness with whatever is being experienced now.... Keep up the good work! I'll look forward to Nina's additions as usual too. Metta, Sarah ======= --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > The wording in this paragraph is a little confusing. It refers to the > three abstinence cetasikas: abstinence from wrong conduct by way of > speech, action, and livelihood. The CMA says , "the viratis > [abstinences] are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally > refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has > arisen". So I guess it would be something like not stepping on a bug > that crosses your path or not taking what isn't given. When the > situation arises there is the sense of the right thing to do; maybe it's > conscience or scruples. These cetasikas can accumulate and become > habitual. <....> 44764 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life christine_fo... Hello Tep, Phil, Sarah, all, We once had a study corner on Abhidhamma in Daily Life which started on 12 March 2002 and finished on 13 September, 2002. This was diligently overseen by Larry, who posted this first message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11786 and continued to regularly do so until the final post of that series at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15662 I no longer have the summary - I think it is imprisoned in my old computer which died late last year. But it is posted on dsg somewhere - around, within, or just after - Post numbers 11786 and 15662. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (Chris & Phil), > > I think Phil's suggestion is a very good one....we haven't kept any > 'model' answers aside that I recall. In any case, any further answers or > discussion is always useful for further reflection for everyone. Others > may join in too. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Chris did give a summary of links for earlier discussions of ADL, I > think. Maybe, you could repost this if you have it handy, Chris. > > > --- Philip wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tep > > > > > Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions at the > > end > > > of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". > > > > I can help with this question. If you try to answer the questions > > yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give you > > very helfpul feedback. I say that from experience because I've been > > doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. I hope you do answer > > them. Maybe post the quesions first, so we all have a chance to reflect > > on them. Thanks in advance! > ... 44765 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusayas. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & All, --- Philip wrote: > Ph: So seeing our repeated mistakes is an indicator of anusayas. I > like that line in Dhammapada. "See the man who has been set free run > back to his chains." Instead of using that moment to understand > anusays and feel gratitude to the Buddha who teaches the way out, we > fret and regret and beat ourselves up, just tightening the chains. > .... S: Beautifully put. Comical really (if it wasn't so pitiful):-). As for your question on motivations, I reflected on this and I think that the inkling I have about the extent of moha (ignorance) for most the day is what I always come back to. Look how often seeing arises -- so much so that we have an illusion of 'light' appearing throughout the day, rather than just when visible object is experienced. When there isn't direct awareness of seeing or visible object as they are experienced, there's ignorance. The same for the other sense experiences. Enjoying the discussions James and you are having too. Metta, Sarah ======= 44766 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, You wrote a good post on'Visitors' - relevant for the luminous threads. Also lots of great posts on all the realms - well done. Sometime I have posts put aside to come back to you on, but always seem to be running behind:-). (Also a very good one on science, I recall). If anyone is new to the list and totally confused by Htoo's Dhamma Thread series, there is a section in 'Useful Posts' called 'Abhidhamma - Htoo's summaries' (or something like that). --- htootintnaing wrote: > > PS: I was still considering 'why must akusala citta not have akusala > kamma if it is not kamma patha'. ... S: Just to clarify, all kusala and akusala cetana are kamma, but the question is whether cetana/kama which is not the degree of kamma patha brings results. As you clearly explained in your post, DT335 (#44664), there are 4 kinds of kamma: - regenerative kamma (janaka) - supportive kamma (upatthambhaka) - weakening kamma (upapiilaka) - destructive kamma (upaghataka) Metta, Sarah ====== 44767 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sarahprocter... Hi Geoff, Thank you for your kind words and further comments. I hope you had a good trip to visit your sister. --- sunnaloka wrote: > Regarding the Kammatthana 'view' , it thoroughly blew my mind when I > started reading the venerable teachers such as Ajahn Chah and the > others, that these forest monks were making statements that have more > to do with early Zen and Mahamudra nondualism than with anything ever > stated in the Theravadin abhidhamma tradition. But it’s not > surprising really, because Khammatthana, Zen, and Mahamudra are all > *practice* traditions, and the resultant panna of practice, if it is > to be universally valid, should not depend upon time, culture, or > what historical school one belongs to. .... S: Well let’s see what common ground we can find, looking at the suttas in particular. Firstly, we can both agree that the Dhamma is for *practice* and no one is here, I’m sure, just to develop an intellectual framework or scholastic knowledge of the teachings. Secondly, I agree that if the panna (wisdom) is universally valid, it doesn’t ‘depend upon time, culture or historical school’ as you say. What is true and what can be known is such, regardless of the language or wrapping we use. ... > And so after reading the Khammatthana Ajahns, I thought it would be > fruitful to see if their panna can be traced to the Sutta Pitaka -- > and lo -- it’s all there. Unsurprisingly though, it has either > been thoroughly missed or completely misunderstood by the abhidhamma > academia. ... S: Please could you give me some examples and perhaps we can pause and discuss this area further. How do you define panna for a start and what kind of panna are you talking about? Grateful for any elaborations of such panna ‘which can be traced to the Sutta Pitaka’. .... > > And so I’m willing to discuss some of these notions on DSG -- > to see where it leads more than to attempt to refute or debate > abhidhammikas -- because such conflicting debate can easily become > counterproductive. ... S: Understood. However, please detail the notions you are referring to with support from the suttas so that we can see if there are any aspects to discuss furher. Of course we may just agree to disagree at times, and that’s fine. I know we approach from different angles, but that’s how it is for most people here too. .... > S: p.s whereabouts in Canada are you? > ------------------------ > Conditioned aggregates presently abide in Lethbridge Alberta (pop. > ~70,000) -- about a two hour drive south of Calgary or about an hour > drive north of Montana (USA) border. > > Unconditioned citta/vinnana is forever and always nonabiding -- > transcends temporal duration (time) and relative location (space) ;-) .... S: :-) Thanks for telling me about the conditioned aggregates meanwhile. Metta, Sarah p.s I read your interesting comments to Joop about why you ‘emigrated to the Pali Sutta Pitaka’ and being an outsider in all camps. I think it is good to question ‘dearly cherished belief-sets’ and I know you’re not simply trying to be an ‘annoying contrarian’:-). Please continue to ‘attempt to get to the heart of the matter’ and feel very free to question anything I (or anyone else here) says... ====================== 44768 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Analyse meditation with Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Lisa, I’m really very impressed at the way you’ve clearly come from other schools or disciplines of Buddhism but are eagerly picking up all the Theravada lingo and fitting in so well here and joining in all the discussions. You make many excellent comments too. --- Lisa wrote: > > > Here is my daily meditation. I would like to take my meditation apart > and analyse it using Abhidhamma method. I had never put the daily > practice I do on paper. Writing it down I found out english words > don't go far enough into the details I experience and the Abhidhamma > does! This is what I'll be working on while I'm here on the board. > The jhana, anapanasati, and vipassana meditation dialoge is very > helpful. ... S: Thank you very much for writing down your daily meditation routine – I enjoyed reading it and found it I hope your Sweetie joins us here sometime as well:-). It sounds as though you have a happy and active life and a very positive approach. As for ‘analysing’ it from an Abhidhamma point of view, we can see that everything that happens to us during the day, all our experiences, everything we hold dear and important comes down to namas and rupas . Apart from these two kinds of realities, there is nothing else at all in a day that truly exists (even temporarily). The namas are those realities which can experience an object such as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, feelings, likes, dislikes, remembering, thinking and so on. The rupas are those realities which can never experience any object such as the visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects and more subtle rupas such as the eye-base, ear-base and so on. Even when you feel close to someone, all that is ever experienced are these sounds, visible objects, tactile objects and so on and then of course there is a lot of pleasant feeling, attachment and thinking on account of these experiences. In truth, no ‘Self’, no ‘Sweetie’ and this is the heart of what we discover in the Buddha’s teachings. It’s realy very liberating to even see this intellectually a little, don’t you think? The development of vipassana is the understanding and awareness of these namas and rupas when they are directly experienced – not by changing your lifestyle, but beginning to see that what is taught in the Abhidhamma is no different from what is being experienced throughout the day. I’ll look forward to reading all your other threads and discussing anything further here. Thank you again for taking so much trouble to sincerely share your daily meditation with us. Metta, Sarah ======= 44769 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo, You wrote a good post on'Visitors' - relevant for the luminous threads. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, thanks for your reply. I know you are busy. The post on 'visitors' is not based on my original ideas. I directly translate a part of Myanmar book for the benefit of non-Myanmar readers. I think, the author himself wrote 'this' based on tiika and other tipitaka references. He is a well known figure to many Myanmars. But this fame was not as a Dhamma-writer. Now he seems to be happy because of his practice. He is 'Mya Than San'. He was a university student. He wrote poems. He wrote proses. He joined arm force. He became a captain. As he had a good reputation on his art work, he was appointed to do art-related job in arm force. Then he wrote songs. He wrote screen-scripts. He dithe job of director in film production. He acted as an actor in some films. When he was in frontier he met a Sayadaw. Since then he totally changed his life. Currently he has been writing on practical Dhamma experiences in connection with daily life. 'Visitors' is not new to Myanmar people. Because Sayadaws in Myanmar almost always preach in this way that some bad mind visit us visitors and they destroy the host. Even though 'the ideas in the post Visitors' are not mine, I did not translate Myanmar into English directly. The post was just my re- writing. I acknowledge that 'Mya Than San' is one of my idols in non- bhikkhu Dhamma practitioners. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Also lots of great posts on all the realms - well done. Sometime I have posts put aside to come back to you on, but always seem to be running behind:-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I move Dhamma Thread steadfastly while I reply any responses if they arise. I know that 31 realms ideas may not be accepted by non- Buddhists who become Buddhists. But I am ready to reply should any feedback is there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: (Also a very good one on science, I recall). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am writing some science-related post soon. Maybe today. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: If anyone is new to the list and totally confused by Htoo's Dhamma Thread series, there is a section in 'Useful Posts' called 'Abhidhamma - Htoo's summaries' (or something like that). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > PS: I was still considering 'why must akusala citta not have akusala > > kamma if it is not kamma patha'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Just to clarify, all kusala and akusala cetana are kamma, but the question is whether cetana/kama which is not the degree of kamma patha brings results. As you clearly explained in your post, DT335 (#44664), there are 4 kinds of kamma: - regenerative kamma (janaka) - supportive kamma (upatthambhaka) - weakening kamma (upapiilaka) - destructive kamma (upaghataka) Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, we are viewing from different angles. My perspective was cleaning away of all defilements (that is all akusala cittas must not arise, and finally all kusala citta must not arise and javana cittas have to be kiriya cittas finally. Here 'must not' do not necessarily means the idea of control.) Your view was from the angle of 'result'. So you had been talking from the perspective of kamma-patha while I had been talking kamma. I said all akusala cittas are akusala kamma. You said not all akusala cittas are kamma patha. When I wrote on kamma in connection with their functions or their regenerative power there are 4 kamma as can be seen above. When kamma is not janaka kamma, it will not give rise to effect. So some akusala cittas of non-kamma-patha will do other job of kamma like supporting or reducing janaka kamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 44770 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: Hi Larry, Tep, all, Last time you mistook my response for Tep's, but, no problem. >L: "If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana,a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This last bit is just my idea:-))" > T: "An interesting idea, Larry. But what advantages would a conceptual object offer you (in each of the three cases)?" >Larry: The last case is the interesting one. Conventional realty (ideas)is what all our hopes and fears are based on. So, insight into the ultimate nature of that could be said to be getting at the heart of the problem. However, this isn't just concept. It is concept that references reality in some way. Even though breathing is a concept there is a reality in there somewhere. In that mix of concept and reality could be said to be a middle way between is and isn't. Just thought. Sukinder: It is true that when conventional reality is the object of consciousness, many ultimate realities arise and fall that can be known with sati and panna. This is why I think, daily life is ideal for practice. But when will any level of sati and panna arise is beyond control, this is true for both samatha and satipatthana. So why choose a particular object such as breath? Is there some idea that this is more conducive to the arising of either or both levels of sati? The middle way is when a reality is the object of consciousness. Prior to this is the intellectual understanding of the nature of these same realities. I don't think it is as you state //in that mix of concept and reality//. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, Larry, Tep and interested members of DSG, Sorry to butt in between your discussions. Sukin asked, 'So why choose a particular object such as breath?' I think The Buddha preached in detail regarding 'the practice leading to nibbana'. The Buddha preached to bhikkhus who would re-teach lay people. The Buddha included everything related to 'the practice'. There are many meditation centres and many have different traditions. Some were accused as teaching the 'rituals'. Some people 'CUT OUT almost everything' from the teachings and encourage to do 'JUST DAILY LIFE contemplation while driving, swimming, playing, shopping, etc etc.' I do accept 'sati' and 'panna' etc etc. But I was wondering why peope are reluctant to accept 'breathing meditation' as the genuine practice taught by The Buddha. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44771 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:56am Subject: Visitors 1 (was: Musings10 .....) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Dear Sarah, thanks for your reply. I know you are busy. The post > on 'visitors' is not based on my original ideas. I directly translate > a part of Myanmar book for the benefit of non-Myanmar readers. > > I think, the author himself wrote 'this' based on tiika and other > tipitaka references. .... S: Yes, there are many references in the suttas and commentaries to the visitors throught the 6 doorways. How can we ever feel lonely when there are so many visitors all day to be met wisely:-)?? The following is an extract on the same topic of visitors, from A.Sujin's 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas',ch 10, transl by Nina: ***** >The bhavangupaccheda is succeeded by the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness. This citta attends to the object, it knows that the object impinges on the tongue-door but it cannot taste yet. It is as if one knows that a visitor has arrived at the door but one does not see him yet and does not know who he is. We all have guests who come to see us. When we think of guests we are likely to think of people, but in reality our guests are the different objects that appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body-sense and the mind-door. When we see visible object that appears through the eyes, visible object is our visitor. When we hear sound, sound is our visitor. When we do not hear, sound does not appear, and thus, a visitor has not come yet through the ear-door. When flavour appears, flavour is like a visitor, it appears through the door of the tongue just for a moment and then it disappears. Whenever an object appears through one of the doorways that object can be seen as a visitor that comes through that doorway. It is there just for an extremely short moment and then it disappears completely, it does not come back again in the cycle of birth and death. Elderly people tend to feel lonely when they lack company. When they were younger they met many people, they enjoyed the company of relatives and friends. When they have become older the number of visitors, whom they see as people, has dwindled. When one asks elderly people what they like most of all, they will usually answer that they like most of all the company of people. They are happy when other people come to see them, they like to be engaged in conversation. However, in reality everybody has visitors, at each moment one sees, hears, smells, tastes or experiences tangible object. Usually when such visitors come, citta rooted in attachment arises and enjoys what appears through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue or the body-sense. There are different kinds of visitors. Nobody would like a wicked person as visitor, but a dear relative or friend is most welcome. In reality the different objects that appear through the senses are only rúpas. Rúpa does not know anything and therefore it cannot have any evil intention towards anybody. When would a visitor be an enemy and when a dear relative or friend? Actually, when an object appears and one enjoys it and clings to it, there is an enemy, because enjoyment with clinging is akusala dhamma. Akusala dhamma is not a friend to anybody. Whereas kusala dhamma is like a close relative who is ready to help one, eager to give assistance at all times. Therefore, we should know the difference between the characteristic of kusala citta and of akusala citta. Akusala citta is evil, harmful, it is like an enemy, not a friend. When we think of an enemy we may be afraid, and we do not like his company. However, it is akusala citta which is wicked, and this citta is a condition that there will also be an enemy in the future. Whereas kusala citta, which is like a dear relative or friend, is a condition that there will also be a dear relative or friend in the future. Rúpa is not a condition for foe or friend, because rúpa does not know anything, it has no evil or good intention. The sound which appears is a reality which does not experience anything, it has no wish that anybody hears it or does not hear it. Sound is rúpa which arises because there are conditions for its arising; which kind of sound will impinge on someone’s ear-sense is dependent on conditions. When we are fast sleep we do not even hear the deafening, frightening sound of thunder. Then the sound of thunder is not our visitor. However, it can be someone else’s visitor when there are the accumulated conditions which cause the ear-sense to be impinged upon by that sound. It is dependent on conditions whether an object will be someone’s visitor through the doorway of eyes, ears, nose, tongue or body-sense. Kamma which has been accumulated causes the arising of vipåkacitta which experiences an object through one of the sense-doors. Thus, the visitors which present themselves through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue and the body-sense are visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. They appear just for a moment and then they fall away, they disappear, not to return again. There is no living being, person, self or anything there. Nobody knows in a day which visitor will come through which doorway and at which moment.< ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 44772 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:01am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Okay, I'm awake and ready to tackle the rest of your post! ;-)) Phil: I think the "crossing the flood" sutta (first one in Samyutta Nikaya) gets at this. When we press too hard, strain to get results, we are swet away. If we are negligent and don't apply ourselves at all, we sink. James: This is the Middle Way as taught by the Buddha; but your Middle Way doesn't seem to correspond to the Buddha's Middle Way. When the Buddha was describing straining too hard, he was talking about extreme austerities (starving oneself, physical torture, mental torture, etc.), he wasn't talking about sitting, walking, standing, or lying meditation. Those things, even though they may seem so at times ;-), are not self-torture. Granted, I wouldn't say you are doing nothing toward liberation, you are learning the dhamma. You aren't just studying Abhidhamma, you are studying the suttas also. This will probably lay the seeds for later development. The Buddha said that his monks had two duties: to learn the dhamma and to train the mind. One outta two isn't too bad! ;-) Phil: If people without right understanding apply themlves to those explicit intstructions, will understanding arise from it? I suspect not. The ignorance will just get "thicker" if you will. You will disagree strongly with that statement, and probably consider it blasphemous and worthy of a rebirth in hell. James: LOL! What! You are entitled to your opinion and I don't think it will warrant you a rebirth in hell! ;-) Now, if you try hard to convince others not to practice the Buddha's teaching, that is another matter. However, I don't agree with your conclusion. The Satipatthana Sutta (the longer version) also includes reflecting on the Four Noble Truths, so there is no possibility whatsoever that ignorance will increase by following its instructions. Phil: One thing you could do to help me, if you're concenred, is tell me more about how mindfulness arises in your daily life. I know you say that you decided to not to post about daily life because of reaction to your posts in the past or something, but until you tell me more about your mindfulness in daily life, you will remain a bit of a fundamentalist scold to me. Yes, trust the Buddha's word, but also trust examined daily life experience. That's why I enjoy NIna's books. The Buddha's word in the context of daily life. That's what it's all about for me. I don't know enough about your daily life to be deeply impressed by what you say, but I respect your decsion to keep it to yourself. James: Okay, I will tell you some about my personal life; however, I am not telling you this to "impress" you. I will share with you since you share with me. Trying to `impress people' is exactly why I don't talk about my personal life. For example, I belong to another Buddhist group and one of the members introduced herself with a detail of how often she meditates per day and during retreats, blah, blah, blah… I just knew one thing, she is not doing the right type of meditation or she would be wise enough to know that it is inappropriate to use meditation as a type of spiritual CV. Anyway, mindfulness arises during my daily life centered on two main themes: the three taints (greed, hatred, delusion), and the suffering of conditioned existence. These are the two areas where I try to be most mindful. To give you some examples, if I feel myself getting irritated or angry about something (usually school related ;-) I am mindful of that feeling and watch it until it goes away. Then, with reviewing, I trace that feeling back to its source to discover where it came from. I usually find that the feeling came from delusion: thinking that things should be different than how they really are. Following this process, anger arises less and less often. With greed, if I can feel myself craving a particular object or lifestyle (like a house near the ocean) I reflect on where that thing will be 100 years from now, or where I will be 100 years from now (dead), and I see how it is something I don't need. Delusion is the hardest one to confront and requires clear thinking and concentration, arising from meditation. There are so many examples of delusion that spring up in my mind that it would be difficult to detail even a fraction of them. I struggle everyday to keep my mind sane and wise in the face of so many delusions (especially since those around me are mired in delusion also). What I am most mindful of is the suffering of conditioned existence. It was through meditation that I realized that a job, money, or relationship doesn't lead to happiness- that they are empty and without meaning. I wanted to become a monk, to truly follow the Buddha's path, but it is nearly impossible to find the proper sangha. I went all the way to Thailand and returned disappointed. Oh well, I can still practice as a householder. I work but I know that it is just to survive; I have money but I know that it is just to survive; I have a relationship but I know it is just for companionship which is also needed to survive. I try to meditate when I can to gain inner peace in the face of knowing that so much of my supposed "life" is empty and without meaning. But, I have a good sense of humor and I keep practicing. Moments of bliss come with the realization that there is an escape from so much suffering- and that possibly one day I will achieve that escape. Phil: I guess you missed my posts in which I shared passages from Kh Sujin's Deeds of Merit. Somewhere I read from her that if we don't understand sila and dana, we can't cultivate panna. I think you are under-appreciating the importance she places on dana and sila. James: Yes, I did miss those. Perhaps you can give me the link again? What I want to know is if she stresses dana to the sangha, like that taught by the Buddha; and sila as a prerequisite for meditation (to be free of guilt and worry) like that taught by the Buddha. Phil: I like what Nina said about renunciation. There is renunciation with every moment of kusala, because we are not thinking about satisfying our own needs. Is that bad Dhamma? James: Yes, it is bad Dhamma. It is utter nonsense and not what the Buddha taught about renunciation. Look up what the Buddha taught about renunciation and see if it matches. Phil: James, may I propose that we keep our exchange to once a week. When you get back to me, I will hold my response until my day off. (Thursdays) James: That sounds fine to me. It is difficult to keep up with your very long posts! You mind is exploding with ideas ;-). Metta, James 44773 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:25am Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep and Htoo, ... snip ... snip ... N: The yogavacara has to know which jhanafactors he has abandoned and which ones are remaining. Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti, but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object and also the nimitta. Each citta can have only one object at a time. I find that Ken O explained this clearly re background. I admit that the text is very compact. I would like to ask Htoo what he thinks. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Tep, Larry and all, This thread is interesting and many discussions have done while I was shortly away. As Nina said, 'Yogavacara has to know which jhana factors he has abandoned.' And 'which ones are remaining'. Nina continued, 'Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti.' Here, Nina did not say 'Yogavacara takes piti as object'. But what he takes is nimitta. While he is taking nimitta there is an associated cetasika called 'piti'. At that time 'piti' is not an object of jhana cittas. But when 'Yogavacara exits jhana, he examines that while he was in jhana what jhana factors were there and what were not there. He is moving counting one after another. When he reaches 'piti', he is taking 'piti' as object. At that time, he is no more in jhana. But he is in paccavakkhana vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, who were there and who were not there. No citta can take 2 objects in a single moment. Nina is right. ken O is right. When I tracked down the threads, I found a question of 'knowledge of abhidhamma is useful for samatha/vipassana or not useful?' asked by Tep to Nina. Nina already answered yes, it is useful. When there is no basic knowledge, realities will never be discovered. This basic knowledge may come in different ways. Some acquired through others' teachings while some very rare occasions the knowledge is acquired through experience. What is sure is that many people know what is 'the present'. Even some trained animals know what is 'the present'. Example is guide dog. But there are many who never know nama and rupa at all. To conclude, while in jhana, piti is not the object of attention. But piti is an accompaniment of jhana cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44774 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (336) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) Janaka kamma are kamma that are capable of giving rise to their effects or their results. These kamma may be as old as aeons, kappas long. Or may be as recent as a few lives ago. Whatever time is suitable for them, they do have the power or capability to give rise to their results. Upatthambhaka kamma are kamma that do not have the same power like janaka kamma. But when there are janaka kamma and at the same time there are also upatthambhaka kamma, then that upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma or reinforcing kamma do add to the effect of janaka kamma or reproductive kamma or regenerative kamma. Fire does destroy things to be burnt whatever there is blowing wind or not. But when there is burning with fire and at the same time there is blowing wind then that blowing wind does reinforce the burning process or does support the burning process of fire. Upatthambhaka kamma behaves in the same way like blowing wind while itself does not have the same power of janaka kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44775 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:47am Subject: Re: Visitors 1 (was: Musings10 .....) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, thanks for your reply. I know you are busy. The post > > on 'visitors' is not based on my original ideas. I directly translate > > a part of Myanmar book for the benefit of non-Myanmar readers. > > > > I think, the author himself wrote 'this' based on tiika and other > > tipitaka references. > .... > S: Yes, there are many references in the suttas and commentaries to the > visitors throught the 6 doorways. How can we ever feel lonely when there > are so many visitors all day to be met wisely:-)?? > > The following is an extract on the same topic of visitors, from A.Sujin's > 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas',ch 10, transl by Nina: > ***** > >The bhavangupaccheda is succeeded by the five-sense-door > adverting-consciousness. This citta attends to the object, it knows that > the object impinges on the tongue-door but it cannot taste yet. ..snip .. snip ... > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your quote of A Sujin's 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. But there is some differences what I and Mya Than San wrote. What Nina translated as 'visitors' are not cetasikas but they are 'arammana'. They are knocking at the door of 5-sense-door- adverting consciousness. What I wrote was visitors cetasikas. Dosa comes without declaration. He destroys everything. He leaves waves or after-effect. Dosa comes in, sometime, without any apparaent causes and destroy the host's home. Like dosa, there are many other visitors. Maana comes in different forms. Example let us say 'I win the lottery'. Maana arises immediately and many plans are racing. Another example; let us say 'I do not have anything to eat while people nearby are eating greedily'. Maana arises. I do not have to think of them whatever they are eating. I am 'me' and I have my own body and I have my own kamma. Another visitor comes in. He is uddhacca. Let us say, 'I lost my beloved daughter'. Among different visitors of dosa, lobha, moha uddhacca does not leave for a long time. So what I referred was 'cetasikas'. What A Sujin and Nina referred to was 'arammanas'. When I say 'cetasikas' are visitors, there may arise confusion. That is who is 'host'. No one. But conventional beings, which is not a reality. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44776 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:37am Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - 5 Questions buddhistmedi... Hi Larry, Chris, Sarah, Phil, Sukin, Htoo and interested members - Thank you Chris for the valuable background information. I'll pursue that further. Thanks to Sarah too for your comment. Thank you Larry for the practical suggestion. Here is the first set of questions in the area of objects of meditation and jhana. My own (probably incorrect) answers will be posted within 2 days. Then anyone may use my answers as a "strawman". 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its function? 2) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the jhanacitta? What is its object? 3) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika arising with the panna (wisdom) of the Eightfold Path which realizes a characteristic of nama or rupa? What is its object at that moment? 4) Why is mindfulness of breathing one of the most difficult subjects of meditation? 5) What is the difference between samma-sati (right mindfulness) in samatha and samma-sati in vipassana? What are their respective objects of awareness? I think Phil, Sukin and Htoo will be glad to answer these questions because they strongly relate to the ongoing discussion on breath meditation. Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Tep, Phil, Sarah, all, > > We once had a study corner on Abhidhamma in Daily Life which > started on 12 March 2002 and finished on 13 September, 2002. This > was diligently overseen by Larry, who posted this first message: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11786 > and continued to regularly do so until the final post of that series > at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15662 > > I no longer have the summary - I think it is imprisoned in my old > computer which died late last year. But it is posted on dsg > somewhere - around, within, or just after - Post numbers 11786 and > 15662. :-) > > metta, > Chris > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi Tep (Chris & Phil), > > > > I think Phil's suggestion is a very good one....we haven't kept any > > 'model' answers aside that I recall. In any case, any further > answers or > > discussion is always useful for further reflection for everyone. > Others > > may join in too. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > p.s Chris did give a summary of links for earlier discussions of > ADL, I > > think. Maybe, you could repost this if you have it handy, Chris. > > > > > > --- Philip wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Tep > > > > > > > Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions > at the > > > end > > > > of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". > > > > > > I can help with this question. If you try to answer the > questions > > > yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give > you > > > very helfpul feedback. I say that from experience because I've > been > > > doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. I hope you do > answer > > > them. Maybe post the quesions first, so we all have a chance to > reflect > > > on them. Thanks in advance! > > ... 44777 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonabbott@... Send Email Geoff and All Apologies for the typo in my recent post. > I think it's fair to say that the suggestion that there's no possibility > >of regression after attaining the first path (stream entry) directly >contradicts the suttas. It surprises me that you would consider this >something about which you could come to your own conclusion. > > This should of course have read, "... the suggestion that there is the possibility of regression after attaining the first path (stream entry) directly contradicts the suttas". Jon 44778 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:32am Subject: Realizable Release ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Four Modes of Direct Experience: The Exalted Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these 4 realizable things: What four ? By the body one realizes the 8 releasing liberations. By memory one realizes one's prior lives in all diverse detail. By the divine eye one realizes the death & rebirth of beings. By understanding one realizes elimination of mental fermentation. These, Bhikkhus, are the 4 realizable things... Source: The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya II 182 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44779 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Nina, Phil, Larry and other members - Thank you much Htoo for your firm and very clear answers that are valuable to me: 1. "While he is taking nimitta there is an associated cetasika called 'piti'. At that time 'piti' is not an object of jhana cittas". 2. [But when the yogavacara exits jhana] ".. he is in paccavakkhana vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, who were there and who were not there". So it is clear that "no citta can take 2 objects in a single moment. Nina is right. Ken O is right". And Tep was wrong about piti as object of the jhanacitta. Sincerely and respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > (snipped) > Here, Nina did not say 'Yogavacara takes piti as object'. But what he > takes is nimitta. While he is taking nimitta there is an associated > cetasika called 'piti'. At that time 'piti' is not an object of jhana > cittas. > > But when 'Yogavacara exits jhana, he examines that while he was in > jhana what jhana factors were there and what were not there. He is > moving counting one after another. When he reaches 'piti', he is > taking 'piti' as object. At that time, he is no more in jhana. But he > is in paccavakkhana vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, > who > were there and who were not there. > > No citta can take 2 objects in a single moment. Nina is right. ken O > is > right. When I tracked down the threads, I found a question > of 'knowledge of abhidhamma is useful for samatha/vipassana or not > useful?' asked by Tep to Nina. > > Nina already answered yes, it is useful. > > When there is no basic knowledge, realities will never be discovered. > This basic knowledge may come in different ways. Some acquired > through > others' teachings while some very rare occasions the knowledge is > acquired through experience. > > What is sure is that many people know what is 'the present'. Even > some > trained animals know what is 'the present'. Example is guide dog. But > there are many who never know nama and rupa at all. > > To conclude, while in jhana, piti is not the object of attention. But > piti is an accompaniment of jhana cittas. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44780 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life nilovg Hi Tep and Phil, Phil, you are very diplomatic. ;-)) If time allows, you could start with some input and then I can see whether I add something. Tep, perhaps just a few Q. at a time is good for all concerned, we do not want long posts. When I wrote those Q. a long time ago, Kh. Sujin said not to add the answers. She thinks that people should test their own understanding and consider things for themselves. This has always been her approach, she never wanted people to just follow her or influence them in any way. In India and also before, she stressed very much that the Buddha wanted people to develop their own understanding. They should compare the different texts of the Tipitaka with each other and verify the truth for themselves. Nina. op 25-04-2005 04:40 schreef Philip op philco777@...: If you try to answer the questions yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give you very helpful feedback. I say that from experience because I've been > doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. 44781 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too nilovg Hi Sukinder, We have been discussing knowing characteristics and the present moment on and on. but here in your post you touch on the essence: knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. Very good to discuss and consider this more often. I have put this post into my favorites file. I am interested about what Tep, Phil and others will say! Nina. op 25-04-2005 03:08 schreef Sukinder op sukinder@...: > I was thinking about the meaning of `present moment' and how > this is understood better as one understands dhammas. After all as you > say, "reality is where the present is found". > This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of > knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. So we can keep talking > about the importance of understanding the moment, but if there has not > been any satipatthana, then the `present moment' will forever remain > just an `idea'. Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least > comes to understand the difference between wrong and right sati and > also realities and concepts. So even though the moments of right > practice are very rare, the inclination to `wrong' practice nevertheless > decreases. 44782 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Review of the last DSG Message on Mahanidana & Comy nilovg Hi Tep, Thank you for reviewing Message # 31644. A good start. Nina. op 24-04-2005 20:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Message # 31644 : Here Sarah discussed with Ken O the Commentary > on how the Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada) was so deep that > even the profound Venerable Ananda "had failed to fully appreciate", > because the Dependent Arising only "appeared deep" to him. 44783 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo, Nina, Phil, Larry and other members - > > Thank you much Htoo for your firm and very clear answers that are > valuable to me: > > 1. "While he is taking nimitta there is an associated cetasika > called 'piti'. At that time 'piti' is not an object of jhana cittas". > 2. [But when the yogavacara exits jhana] ".. he is in paccavakkhana > vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, who were there and who > were not there". > > So it is clear that "no citta can take 2 objects in a single moment. Nina > is right. Ken O is right". And Tep was wrong about piti as object of the > jhanacitta. > > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I do not say Tep was wrong as there was no Tep at all. :-)) There are mind-objects or dhamma-arammana. One citta takes one object. There are 6 possible classes of dhamma-arammana or mind- objects. 1. 5 pasada rupas or 5 sense-sensitive-materials 2. 16 sukhuma rupas or 16 subtle materials 3. 89 cittas or 89 states of consciousness 4. 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors or 52 mind-accompaniments 5. 1 nibbana or absolute peace 6. 1 pannatti or names So a citta will take a)one of 5 pasada rupas or b)one of 16 sukhuma rupas or c)one of 89 cittas or d)one of 52 cetasikas or e)nibbana or f)pannatti or names But that citta is not the only one. Each just lasts one single moment. And not every kind of citta can take these objects. Examples; akusala citta cannot take nibbana as its object. magga citta cannot take kama object as its object. jhana citta cannot take kama object as its object. But manodvara-avajjana citta can take any of these objects without any exceptions. So if a citta is taking 'piti' as its object, then the object is piti and not other mind-object. So a citta who is taking piti as its object is not in jhana-javana-vithi-vara. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: As long as there is 'I' or 'Me' or 'My' or 'Mine', there will be 'you' 'or 'you' or 'your' or 'yours', 'He' or 'Him' or 'His' or 'His', 'She' or 'Her' or 'Her' or 'Hers', 'They' or 'Them' or 'Their' or 'Theirs'. These words in their conventional meanings are the source of 'stinginess' or 'macchariya', the source of 'jealousy' or 'issaa'. 44784 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:32am Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - 5 Questions htootintnaing Dear Tep and Dhamma Friends, Very good set up of questions. I will answer straight away. Sukin, Phil and other may answer in their way on this thread. I hope Nina will answer much more accurately. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Hi Larry, Chris, Sarah, Phil, Sukin, Htoo and interested members - Thank you Chris for the valuable background information. I'll pursue that further. ... snip ...as a "strawman". 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its function? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 1) When seeing now [example; the word 'w' in 'now' just before the parenthesis of this example is seen and it is now being talked], there is ekaggata cetasika. Its function is to focus at 'w' in seeing or its function is to fix at an object [now the object is rupa-arammana of light-form-shape- darkness-brightness-colour and not to other objects]. Nina will also beautifully answer. Rob M's answer will also be equally good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep question: 2) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the jhanacitta? What is its object? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 2: The function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the jhanacitta [example 1st jhana rupakusala citta taking odaata kasina] is to fix the mind to 'the idea of white'. Its object is nimitta pannatti or name of sign. Here full explanation about jhana and jhana cittas may be required. Otherwise the explanation may not be complete. When the meditator starts meditating on 'white kasina' the initial object is visual object and initial bhavana cittas have a kind of samadhi. That samadhi is called preparatory samadhi. When matured, the meditator can meditate without seeing 'visual object' any more. Because there arise another object which is called uggaha nimitta, which is the exact copy of visual object but not 'a rupa'. That object is not a citta. That object is not a cetasika. That object is not nibbana. As that object is not citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, it is just a name. It is a name for a sign. That sign is the exact copy of visual object. But uggaha nimitta is not a rupa. So uggaha nimitta is panatti. When matured, another counter sign arises. This sign is totally different from initial mental image called uggaha nimitta. This new image is called patibhaaga nimitta. That nimitta is very beautiful. That sign can arise in 22 kinds of kammatthana. That sign does not arise in 4 brahmavihara kammatthana, 4 aruppa kammatthana, 1 aharepatikuulasanna kammatthana, 1 catudhaatuvavatthana kammatthana, 8 of 10 anussati kammatthana. 2 anussati kammatthanas that can have patibhaaga nimitta are aanaapaanassati kammatthana and kaayagataasati kammatthana. So 4, 4, 1, 1, 8 = 18 kammatthanas do not have patibhaaga nimitta, while 22 kammatthanas can have patibhaga nimitta. When patibhaga nimitta or counter-image arises the samadhi is almost matured to become jhana but not yet because the mind has not been absorbed yet. There are no hindrances at all in this samadhi. But this samadhi is called proximate-concentration or upacaara samadhi. Once the mind is totally absorbed into the object and the object and mind merge into singlity. The cittas at that time are all jhana cittas and there is continuous flow of jhana cittas like bhavanga cittas. But while bhavanaga cittas are just resultant consciousness, jhanacittas are javana cittas and they fully apperceive the jhana object. The function of ekaggata cetasika in that absorptive concentration is to fix at patibhaaga nimitta, which is panatti. The jhana citta's object is patibhaaga nimitta. So ekaggata cetasika's object is also patibhaaga nimitta. Regarding cetasikas, 1)all cetasikas (without any exceptions) have to arise at the very same and identical moment of arising of a citta that they accompany. 2)all cetasikas take the identical object, which the citta they accompany take as its object. 3)all cetasikas have to depend on the identical vatthu, where the citta they accompany has to depend on. 4)all cetasikas have to disappear at the very same time or at the identical moment of disappearing of the citta that they accompay. So the object of 'ekaggata cetasika in question' is patibhaga nimitta if the jhana is the output of 22 kammatthana. If jhana is the output of 4 brahmavihara kammatthana then the object will be 'satta pannatta' or 'names of beings'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 3) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika arising with the panna (wisdom) of the Eightfold Path which realizes a characteristic of nama or rupa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 3: Here it is needed to be specific. If it is supramundane Eightfold Path, the citta is not seeing any rupa or other sankhata nama. But just nibbana, which is also a nama dhamma as it can be taken by nama dhamma. The function of ekaggata cetasika in NEP is to fix at nibbana while panna realises that the current object nibbana is absolute peace and nothing is comparable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep' question continued: What is its object at that moment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer continues: Its object is nibbana and no other object can be nibbana here. If it was other object, then it is not genuine NEP and so citta will not be true magga citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 4) Why is mindfulness of breathing one of the most difficult subjects of meditation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 4: Because there is just a thin layer. There were many who did not see realities and their characterisitcs even though there was very high panna. Even The Bodhisatta of our Buddha, The Buddha gotama when he was a young prince, He just had 1st jhana and there was no samma- ditthi of NEP. This panna had not arisen until at the 3rd watch of night of His 35th birthday, when aasavakkhaya nana arose. Before that time the Bodhisatta did have up to 8th jhana or He attained all 4 rupa jhana and all 4 arupa jhana. But He knew that it was not the end. So even though those 8 jhanas were already high, he ignored them and approached the forest and stayed there for 6 years for intensive searching. But finally, He had to return to Jhana again. That is the 1st jhana with breathing meditation. While even The Bodhisatta of highest ripe could not penetrate the thin layer straight away at the time when He attained all 8 jhanas, we all should give very very high respect to 'breathing meditation'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 5) What is the difference between samma-sati (right mindfulness) in samatha and samma-sati in vipassana? What are their respective objects of awareness? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 5; Character-wise they both are the same. That is exactly the same. The function of sati is to remember, to be mindful. Samatha takes panatti as their object. There is sati in samatha. Vipassana takes 'anicca/dukkha/anatta'-bearing nama or rupa as their object. Quite different. Totally different. Completely different. That was why I once strongly argue that rupavacara jhana cittas or arupavacara arupa jhana cittas are not samma-samadhi of NEP that is samma-samadhi or ekaggata cetasika that arises in magga cittas. When in jhana [rupa or arupa], anicca or dukkha or anatta of rupa or nama will not be seen as jhana cittas are taking different object apart from nama and rupa. But there are lokuttara jhana cittas. But these cittas are all lokuttara cittas and not rupavacara jhana cittas or arupavacara arupa jhana cittas. Their lineage is lokuttara cittas. So this is different from simple jhanas of rupa and arupa [which were attained by 2 teachers of Bodhisatta ]. Again these lokuttara jhana cittas while they are having the power of jhana [that is they are totally free of hindrances], their object is nibbana and not pannatti. So in summary the objects of samatha and vipassana are not the same. One may argue that 'breathing point' is the same. But seeing is different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: I think Phil, Sukin and Htoo will be glad to answer these questions because they strongly relate to the ongoing discussion on breath meditation. Respectfully yours, Tep ======== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Tep, Phil, Sarah, all, > > > > We once had a study corner on Abhidhamma in Daily Life which > > started on 12 March 2002 and finished on 13 September, 2002. This > ... snip ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not good at 'lakkhana, rasa, paccappatthana, and padatthana of dhamma. Nina and Rob M are very good at them. They will explain those parts. Lakkhana = characteristics rasa = function paccappatthana = manifestation padatthana = immediate causes or close causes With Metta, Htoo Naing 44785 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:35am Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - 5 Questions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear Tep and Dhamma Friends, Very good set up of questions. I will answer straight away. Sukin, Phil and other may answer in their way on this thread. I hope Nina will answer much more accurately. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Tep wrote: > > Hi Larry, Chris, Sarah, Phil, Sukin, Htoo and interested members - > > Thank you Chris for the valuable background information. I'll pursue > that further. ... snip ...as a "strawman". > > 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its function? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Answer 1) > > When seeing now [example; the word 'w' in 'now' just before the > parenthesis of this example is seen and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Nina, Sukin and All, This long message of reply to Tep was nearly lost because of internet breakdown. But the message just escaped. :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 44786 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo buddhistmedi... Dear Firend Htoo - Thank you for the summary of the kinds of dhamma-rammana(mind objects) -- it is good to keep them in mind, so to speak. > H: So a citta will take > > a)one of 5 pasada rupas or > b)one of 16 sukhuma rupas or > c)one of 89 cittas or > d)one of 52 cetasikas or > e)nibbana or > f)pannatti or names > > But that citta is not the only one. Each just lasts one single > moment. And not every kind of citta can take these objects. > H: > I do not say Tep was wrong as there was no Tep at all. :-)) > Sure, Htoo, sure. There were just two heaps of aggregates that exchanged "mind objects" on two computers, and these aggregates passed away. The mental fabrication that there is 'Tep' is conditioned by atta-ditthi, and it is impermanent too. |:->) . > H: > But manodvara-avajjana citta can take any of these objects without > any exceptions. > Thanks, Htoo. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > 44787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes, to Jon nilovg Dear Jonothan, All good wishes and many happy returns, also from Lodewijk. We admire your good qualities, among which is your fewness of wishes, being content with a bowl of noodles as your birthday meal. Nina and Lodewijk. 44788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo nilovg Dear Htoo, Thank you for your clear explanation: jhana what jhana factors were there and what were not there. He is > moving counting one after another. When he reaches 'piti', he is > taking 'piti' as object. At that time, he is no more in jhana. But he > is in paccavakkhana vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, > who were there and who were not there.> Nina. 44789 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:52am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, To say "there is no self " (because 'self ' is a consequence of atta- vadupadana : clinging to the personality view) is one thing, and to say that "there is noone who acts" is another thing. I want to make sure. So when you wrote that there was no Tep, which of the following did you essentially have in mind? -- There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. -- The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. -- There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. -- Or, all of the above? Sincerely, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Htoo, Nina, Phil, Larry and other members - > > > > > > So it is clear that "no citta can take 2 objects in a single > moment. Nina is right. Ken O is right". And Tep was wrong about piti as object of the jhanacitta. > > > > > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > > > > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep, > > I do not say Tep was wrong as there was no Tep at all. :-)) > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: As long as there is 'I' or 'Me' or 'My' or 'Mine', there will 44790 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Something interesting I discovered in my studies today... --------------------------------------- "Now, what are the eight thoughts of a great person? This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak. This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non- complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication. "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all, any old almsfood, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites for curing sickness at all. 'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, when living in seclusion, is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples. With his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, he converses with them only as much is necessary for them to take their leave. 'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. 'This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. 'This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. 'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. 'This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk's mind leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & firm in the cessation of complication. 'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non- complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said." [AN VIII.30] 44791 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes, to Jon jonabbott@... Send Email Dear Nina and Lodewijk Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Jonothan, >All good wishes and many happy returns, also from Lodewijk. >We admire your good qualities, among which is your fewness of wishes, being >content with a bowl of noodles as your birthday meal. >Nina and Lodewijk. > > Many thanks for this. Very kind of you to write. Actually, the meal will be in relatively luxurious surroundings. Sarah's description of 'a bowl of noodles' was a little tongue-in-cheek I believe ;-)). What I'm looking forward to most for the day are the usual good reminders from the discussion on the list, and for that I am very grateful to all members and especially to you and Lodewijk. Jon 44792 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Hi Lisa, You bring up a good question that I don't have a good answer for: how do we relate with conventional realities, like crossing the street, in a pathwise way? We want to reach _both_ the other shore and the other curb. Maybe some wholesome (kusala) cetasikas are needed here. Larry 44793 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Sukin: "So why choose a particular object such as breath? " Hi Sukin, I'm so sorry for mixing you with Tep. "Sukin" was in my mind but it didn't make it to my fingers. As to the question above, in addition to what Htoo said I would say a mental discipline, attending to a particular object over and over, brings up all sorts of attachments that want to resist that discipline. We are probably not aware of how many latent attachments we are carrying around and this is a good way to stir them up. Of course attachment should be experienced with the same nonattachment as the object of satipatthana. Larry 44794 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: "This Dhamma is for one who is modest" (was Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma philofillet Hi Matheesha, and all Thanks for sharing this sutta, Matheesha > "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? > There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be > known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be > known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to > be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he > does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' I think it's helpful to remember that we are modest (for example) or not modest momentarily. There is a tendency to evaluate ourselves based on the conventional language in suttas, but if we don't bear in mind that "we" are falling apart and rising again moment by moment in a conditioned way we can forget that these character traits are ephemeral. Of course, there are tendencies that develop, but maybe they are not as easy to identify as we think... For example, persistance. If we think that persistance is something that can be maintained constantly, we have it wrong. When the lazy periods come, as they inevitably will, we will browbeat ourselves and cling to the idealized self-image. Thus a step backwards in liberation from self-identity. On the otherhand, if we come to understand that the laziness, like the persistance, is conditioned nama rising and falling away due to conditions, we don't make a big story about it, don't condition more akusala by worrying. The "he does know want it to be known" is interesting too. The Buddha called sense of shame and fear of wrong-doing (hiri and ottappa) the guardians of the world.They are conditioned nama too. They rise and fall away, moment by moment, due to conditions, beyond our direct control. If we hold on to this "he does not want it to be known" in an unskillful way, there will be more clinging to idealized self-image, and instead of real modesty, there will be conceit. I guess. I think this sutta provides a good example of how understanding Abhidhamma a little bit helps us better understand all three baskets of the Buddha's teaching. Metta, Phil 44795 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Dear Azita, > > We agree that dhammas come and go too quickly to be caught and > controlled and that it is impossible, for example, to direct sati to > a predetermined object. Isn't it also impossible to dictate the > nature of cetana? > > I suspect the doctor or nurse who risks deregistration for refusing > to perform [legal] operations is making the same mistake as the > insubordinate bomb-release officer. They might (or might not) be > conventionally praiseworthy, but they are ultimately misguided. > > Ken H > >=================== Dear Ken, I'd like to talk about this more. To be I am clear on your position, could we use some more examples. What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion refuses because he beleives it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? Or the pilot of the Bombing plane, misguided? Robertk 44796 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, -- Concept vs Reality buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo, Sukin, Larry, Niana, Kel, Phil and interested DSG members - Below is a collection of thoughts given by Larry, Sukin, Htoo and Tep on breathing as the object of Anapanasati. The difficulty apparently stems from the characteristics of breathing itself. > Larry: The last case is the interesting one. Conventional realty > (ideas) is what all our hopes and fears are based on. >So, insight into the ultimate nature of that could be said >to be getting at the heart of the problem. However, this >isn't just concept. It is concept that references reality >in some way. Even though breathing is a concept there is >a reality in there somewhere. In that mix of concept and >reality could be said to be a middle way between is and isn't. > Just thought. Sukin (message # 44761) : It is true that when conventional reality is the object of consciousness, many ultimate realities arise and fall that can be known with sati and panna. This is why I think, daily life is ideal for practice. But when will any level of sati and panna arise is beyond control, this is true for both samatha and satipatthana. So why choose a particular object such as breath? Is there some idea that this is more conducive to the arising of either or both levels of sati? The middle way is when a reality is the object of consciousness. Prior to this is the intellectual understanding of the nature of these same realities. I don't think it is as you state //in that mix of concept and reality//. Htoo (answering Sukin's reply to Larry) : I do accept 'sati' and 'panna' etc etc. But I was wondering why peope are reluctant to accept 'breathing meditation' as the genuine practice taught by The Buddha. Tep: May I try to answer Sukin's questions? The reasons that breathing is an ideal meditation subject for everybody (beginners to experts) are as follows: i) Availability. It is there all the time: unlike kasinas and dead bodies, for example. ii) Its beginning and ending points are clear. You don't have to make an effort to observe its arising and passing-away phenomena: unlike phassa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. iii) At the end of the first tetrad [MN 118] - when breathing becomes so subtle as if it is disappearing - you're automatically in the second jhana with piti, sukha and tranquility (ekaggata citta). There the vedana and sanna will become clear to the yogi (the nama arises). Please also see the "Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life" thread, especially Htoo's and Nina's posts. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Sukin, Larry, Tep and interested members of DSG, > > Sorry to butt in between your discussions. > > Sukin asked, 'So why choose a particular object such as breath?' > > I think The Buddha preached in detail regarding 'the practice leading > to nibbana'. The Buddha preached to bhikkhus who would re-teach lay > people. > > The Buddha included everything related to 'the practice'. There are > many meditation centres and many have different traditions. Some were > accused as teaching the 'rituals'. > > Some people 'CUT OUT almost everything' from the teachings and > encourage to do 'JUST DAILY LIFE contemplation while driving, > swimming, playing, shopping, etc etc.' > > I do accept 'sati' and 'panna' etc etc. > > But I was wondering why peope are reluctant to accept 'breathing > meditation' as the genuine practice taught by The Buddha. > > May you be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44797 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:55pm Subject: Re: Asankhata philofillet Hi Larry, LIsa and all > how do > we relate with conventional realities, like crossing the street, in a > pathwise way? We want to reach _both_ the other shore and the other > curb. Maybe some wholesome (kusala) cetasikas are needed here. I have probably misinterpreted the passage, but I like this from Nina's "Perfections." : "During this pilgrimage we discussed the Buddha's perfections in relation to our lives. We have accumulated many kinds of defilements during countless lives and thus there are conditions for the arising of unwholesomeness, akusala, time and time again.?@Because of our defilements we do not have enough strength to walk the Path the Buddha taught and therefore * we need to accumulate all kinds of wholesome qualities which can support us while we develop right understanding of realites.*" Again, I am probably misinterpreting this, but I think it means that while we will not one day soon have enough wisdom to penetrate paramattha dhammas in a reliable way, and will therefore continue to be at the beck and call of our unwholesome conditions, cultivating kusala, performing deeds of merit and cultivating the 10 perfections even in a fairly conventional way can condition the strength and courage we need to develop deeper insight. So if we see a person crossing the street who needs our help carrying heavy bags or soemthing, we can help them out. In ultimate terms, there may be mana (conceit) or other akusala at work, but in conventional terms we are doing a deed of merit. If we stop and think about the ultimate realities behind all our deeds, we might miss an opportunity to practice perfections, to perform sila or dana. As always, I use "we" very loosely! I tend to think too much about panna, and not enough about sila and dana. As for knowing that a car is just a concept, obviously it's just a concept. As are people. Not only in Dhamma terms, but in scientific terms as well. Just atoms rising and falling apart. I don't know why there is any trouble with understanding that a person is a concept made up of realities. (Not suggesting that there is that trouble for either of you.) There is no reason that knowing a car is just rupa should lead us to getting run over any more than knowing that it is just atomic particles (or whatever the heck they are) does. And knowing that a "person" is made up of paramattha dhammas needn't cause us to be indifferent to them any more than knowing that they are carbon molecules or whatever. Do we get upset by this notion of "people are concepts" because we are subtly clinging to belief in an eternal self/soul? Metta, Phil 44798 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:28pm Subject: Re: anusayas. philofillet Hi Sarah, and all > As for your question on motivations, I reflected on this and I think that > the inkling I have about the extent of moha (ignorance) for most the day > is what I always come back to. "Inkling" is a good word. I'm sure your inklings are clearer than mine, but I know what you mean. Sometimes for me, though, awareness of the extent of ignorance can be a condition for akusala contentment. I am drifting along in a sea of concepts, yes, but nothing much to do about it, so relax and think about realities... There have also been times of right motivation towards ignorance, and times of doubt, and times of restlessnes or fear or whatever. Even conceit - "I am wise enough to know how ignorant! Cool!" A moment of "understanding" ignorance can condition so many different kinds of cittas, depending on the level of and jati of the "understanding". I have faith that wholesome and ultimately helpful motivations will arise more often, gradually. > Look how often seeing arises -- so much so that we have an illusion of > 'light' appearing throughout the day, rather than just when visible object > is experienced. I was interested in the tape to hear Kh Sujin talking about how the citta is always dark, as dark as the first moment in the womb, the first bhavanga citta. It was a new idea for me. It feels very important but I am not trying *too* hard to understand it quite yet. Every time that tape comes around, there will be a slightly different degree of understanding. Metta, Phil 44799 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:07pm Subject: Review of Message # 27439/ Breathing Meditation buddhistmedi... Dear Nina, Kel, Larry, Htoo, James, Phil, Sukin, all other members - Let me remind you about the first two tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta before going on with the review, which refers to them often. [MN 118] "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. (1) Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. Tetrad 1[kayanupassana satipatthana]: [I] "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [II] "Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [III] "He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body,(2) and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [IV] "He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication (the breath),(3) and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Tetrad 2 [vedananupassana satipatthana]: [V] "He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture. [VI] "He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure. [VII] "He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication (feeling & perception), and to breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication. [VIII] "He trains himself to breathe in calming mental fabrication,(4) and to breathe out calming mental fabrication. --------------------------------- Notes (of the Translator -- Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu): 1. "To the fore (parimukham): The Abhidhamma takes an etymological approach to this term, defining it as around (pari-) the mouth (mukham). 2. "The commentaries insist that "body" here means the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for the next step -- without further explanation -- refers to the breath as "bodily fabrication." 3. "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications." 4. "Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." -------------------------------- Tep: In message #27439 Nina explained "the experience of happiness with non-confusion" in the step [V] by using the Visuddhimagga's quotes from the Path of Discrimination as follows. Tep: So it is clear to me that rapture (piti) and pleasure (or "happiness", sukha) are experienced by adverting (avajjana citta) after the end of Tetrad 1, in step [IV] where the yogi attains second jhana (no more vitakka or vicara, dwelling in piti, sukha and samadhi). Also, there is striving or exertion (samma-vayama) along with samma- sati to attain samma-samadhi. After that, samma-nana arises along with a freedom from defilements. Nina then went on to discuss the remaining steps of the second tetrad : N: The realization of the characteristic of impermanence can only occur when the stages of insight knowledge have been developed, beginning with tender insight, as I said before. Thus both jhana and insight have been developed here. As to [VII] and [VIII], experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, sanna. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: Tep : I think the end result of step [VIII] is a "freed mind" --it is free from mental formations (citta-sankhara) -- and this freed mind is the basis of the third tetrad, the cittanupassana satipatthana. I am not sure whether this mind that is unaffected by cetasikas (sankhara ) is the same of citta in the fourth jhana or not. I might have stuck out my neck a little too far from my turtle shell again! So please feel free to tell me that you disagree. Respectfully yours, Tep ======