44800 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:44pm Subject: Re: Asankhata foamflowers . > > I don't know why there is any trouble with understanding that a > person is a concept made up of realities. (Not suggesting that there > is that trouble for either of you.) There is no reason that knowing > a car is just rupa should lead us to getting run over any more than > knowing that it is just atomic particles (or whatever the heck they > are) does. And knowing that a "person" is made up of paramattha > dhammas needn't cause us to be indifferent to them any more than > knowing that they are carbon molecules or whatever. Do we get upset > by this notion of "people are concepts" because we are subtly > clinging to belief in an eternal self/soul? > > Metta, > Phil Dear Phil, I totally get what your trying to say. There surface level is conceptual but I want to get deeper than that. I don't just want to understand this on an intellectual level so I will post why I use breathing meditation and vipassana here. anapana-sati I used the breath to help me focus because it is always there and I can control it as I wish plus it can tell me what is happening within the mind/body before my brain can process data. It is directly linked to the unconscious. It moves differently when I am angry, happy, frustrated, content and so on. It is automatic and it can also be controlled it is an excellent focus point to work on training the mind to stay with one object. I use it to bridge from what I know to what I do not know. Saans dekhte dekhte, satya prakatata jaya Satya dekhte dekhte, parama satya dikh jaya." Observing respiration, truth manifests itself, Observing truth, the supreme truth manifests itself. I have seen the thread on staying in the present and that is what I use the breath for during my working day when I have to be social. During retreats away from social life I took time to train the mind to stay with breath and when I left retreat I could use this training to focus on breath during my day to stay in the present. I just bend mind to breath and lightly ride it or just watch it and I am there in the moment with the natural comings and going of the breath. No past, no future, no worry, no stress, just the breath coming and going, soft, harsh, hot, cold, tingles and so on I am there as it is and that is all. Mind wanders away I pull it back without aversion or craving because that is part of the process and wandering is not good or bad because within that wandering is the natural grace of being in the moment as I bend the mind back to breath. I am able to see how sensations of pleasure or displeasure arise with this pulling and I can let them go again and again and that breaks up those old habits that are some bothersome. I know with this wandering and coming back again and again I am clearing away old habits that keep me bound to endless wanderings. When mind is focused on breath even for a moment there is no generation of habits and huge clots of stored patterns are swept away. That is why it is so hard to stay with breath because even one moment of calm mind focused on breath digs way down into stored patterns of behavior that only come alive when triggered by certain events. It hurt me as they came up and passed away, burning, stabbing pains, old sores and illnesses came up and passed. Flooding thoughts, emotions colored from past events, lights, bliss, and visions came and went and I stayed with breath. I just wrapped myself tightly in my meditation blanket and I was a ship on a wild sea and breath kept me afloat as I stayed still and watched the comings and goings of the my breath. Eventually the storm passed and clear skies came and the next storm that came up I could sit stronger and focus longer and this happened over and over again. I understood impermanence by watching the breath or riding the breath through the flood of pleasure and pain that came and went within my mind and body. That is when I understood that nothing last very long and if I just let things pass as they come up I would be at peace. Phenomena=kayanupassana and vadananupassana. I need physical sensations to practice kayanupassana and I also to explore the body to see it's true nature through sensation, vadanaupassana. Vedana is physical and touches the mental through one of the four aggregates so mind and the body both have sensations. With sensation I can explore the mental and physical together. Kayanupassana investigating sensations helps me be in the moment by watching the coming and going of mind/body, it's gross and subtle vibrations. From the gross to the subtle sensation and then to bhanga-nana as the subtle sensations are left behind too. Here there is no coming or going just a fine vibration or humming and the body/mind is can't be found. Understanding comes when with calm mind I watch the dissolution of body/mind that what I thought is me isn't me at all and many habits are washed away to never come back again. Vedananupassana sensations lovely and horrible, subtle or gross come and go and by just watching them pass old habits of reacting, craving and aversion are broken. Watching over and over again this coming and going and reactions to what is gross and subtle I learned equanimity and during my daily life the heart stays still and the mind stays balanced. The field of mind: cittanupassana and dhammanupassana The body cannot be known without sensation and mind cannot be known without dhamma. Watching the comings and goings mental fabrications I get to know the mind and learn not to be moved by doubt, worry, procrastination, aversions and this makes room for me to work on the virtues and joy, peace of mind, steadiness, come to visit. They help me clear the way to go even deeper into investigations of what comes and goes in the mind. I need physical sensation to observe the mind because it's a bridge that connects me to the mental world of the mind. Dhammanupassana and Cittanupassana are needed to build that bridge. Kayanupassana, vedananupassana, cittanupassana, and dhammanupassana can be analyzed by watching body sensations. Hence my name foamflowers, impermeanent, ephemeral, dissolving and changing every moment, foam ridding the lip of a wave to land on the edge of the breach to dissolve as the wind touches it. With sensation and the breath I have the tools to make my way through the confusing world of sensation and thought and understand the truth of who I am, sampajanna. Satipatthana the establishing of awareness. After going through all that it is really hard for anything to move me and I can walk without moving! hahahaha Four Satipatthanas by just by watching the breath and observing sensation to it's most subtle of movement and then....well you just gotta be there to know!! And I can cross the street and really know what is going on.... With Metta, Lisa 44801 From: "seisen_au" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Kamma/Vipaka seisen_au Hi All, Looking through the Kathavatthu I came across a section on kamma/vipaka (p.309) where the Theras argue that rupa is not vipaka. Vipaka seems to be limited to mental phenomena. Question is: If rupa is not called vipaka (ie the rupa that arises with patisandi citta) what term is used for kamma produced rupa? Thanks Steve 44802 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma/Vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Steve, --- seisen_au wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Looking through the Kathavatthu I came across a section on > kamma/vipaka (p.309) where the Theras argue that rupa is not vipaka. > Vipaka seems to be limited to mental phenomena. .... S; Yes .... >Question is: If rupa > is not called vipaka (ie the rupa that arises with patisandi citta) > what term is used for kamma produced rupa? ... S: kamma produced rupa (kammaja rupa):-). ja means arisen from janati, to produce. kamma - originated from or produced by kamma. 9 kinds of kammaja rupas: eye-sense ear-sense smelling-sense tasting-sense body-sense femininity masculinity heart-base life-faculty See Appendix 111: Rupa in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' for more details. http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Metta, Sarah p.s when we were in Bkk, we had more discussion about your qu on the knowledge of impermanence for those from other traditions or those who had attained jhanas but not developed satipatthana. Conclusion: the knowledge is merely conceptual like now for most of us as you suggested, I think. I hope to add more in a Musing. Metta, Sarah ====== 44803 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:02am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Right understanding cannot be developed within a short time. The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, had to develop wisdom for aeons. He developed satipaììhåna with great patience and an unshakable energy. Energy was one of the “perfections” he developed together with satipaììhåna. He was willing to struggle and strive for an extremely long time, without becoming disenchanted with all the hardship and suffering he had to endure, all for the sake of the welfare of other beings. The Dhammasangaùi (§13), in its description of the “faculty (indriya) of energy”, speaks about “zeal and ardour, vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort”, “the state of unflinching endurance and solid grip of the burden.” The Bodhisatta, when he in his last life was sitting under the Bodhi-tree, had unflinching endurance, he did not let go of the task he had to fulfil. His vigour and fortitude were unsurpassed. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Chapter I, §5) that the Buddha said to the monks that he did not shrink back from the struggle and struggled on thus: * “Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my body’s flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving”. By my earnest endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the unrivalled freedom from the bond. * ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44804 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visitors 1 (was: Musings10 .....) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Thanks for your quote of A Sujin's 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. > > But there is some differences what I and Mya Than San wrote. > > What Nina translated as 'visitors' are not cetasikas but they > are 'arammana'. They are knocking at the door of 5-sense-door- > adverting consciousness. > > What I wrote was visitors cetasikas. ... S: Yes, I apologise for any confusion. I was just continuing on the theme of visitors in the texts and reflecting on the wanted and unwanted visitors through the sense-doors by the time I wrote. As you said, in your good post, the reference to visitors (I think based on the sutta and commentary in AN 1,io that comes up so often here) is to the unwholesome cetasikas which arise and 'spoil' the pure cittas, like the bad children who spoil their parents' reputation. I believe the theme of visitors/guests comes up in different contexts - all useful. .... > Dosa comes without declaration. He destroys everything. He leaves > waves or after-effect. Dosa comes in, sometime, without any apparaent > causes and destroy the host's home. > > Like dosa, there are many other visitors. > > Maana comes in different forms. Example let us say 'I win the > lottery'. Maana arises immediately and many plans are racing. > > Another example; let us say 'I do not have anything to eat while > people nearby are eating greedily'. Maana arises. I do not have to > think of them whatever they are eating. I am 'me' and I have my own > body and I have my own kamma. > > Another visitor comes in. He is uddhacca. Let us say, 'I lost my > beloved daughter'. Among different visitors of dosa, lobha, moha > uddhacca does not leave for a long time. > > So what I referred was 'cetasikas'. What A Sujin and Nina referred to > was 'arammanas'. ... S: Yes. I find both sets of examples are useful to reflect on often. (I was actually glad to just find an excuse to quote the passage I did from 'Survey':-)). .... > > When I say 'cetasikas' are visitors, there may arise confusion. That > is who is 'host'. No one. But conventional beings, which is not a > reality. ... S: Citta is the host, but we forget that citta changes and is 'affected' all the time, depending on the visitors which arise. The citta itself is 'pure' or 'clear' (pandara). Apologies for any confusion. Metta, Sarah ======= 44805 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > S: Just to clarify, all kusala and akusala cetana are kamma, but the > question is whether cetana/kama which is not the degree of kamma patha > brings results. > > As you clearly explained in your post, DT335 (#44664), there are 4 > kinds of kamma: > > - regenerative kamma (janaka) > - supportive kamma (upatthambhaka) > - weakening kamma (upapiilaka) > - destructive kamma (upaghataka) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: <...> > I said all akusala cittas are akusala kamma. You said not all akusala > cittas are kamma patha. When I wrote on kamma in connection with > their functions or their regenerative power there are 4 kamma as can > be seen above. > > When kamma is not janaka kamma, it will not give rise to effect. So > some akusala cittas of non-kamma-patha will do other job of kamma > like supporting or reducing janaka kamma. ... S: At least we agree here now:-). I'll resist going into 'who said what':-). Maybe some misunderstanding which can happen easily, but at least all's clear for now. Thank you for clarifying. Metta, Sarah ======= 44806 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 0:33am Subject: External is also Internal ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The World 'Out there' is an Experience displayed 'In here': The young deity Rohitassa once asked the Buddha: Sir, is it possible - by travelling - to reach, see & know an end of the world, where one is not born, do not age, do not die, do not pass on, & is not reborn? The exalted Buddha promptly answered: That end of the world, where one neither is born, nor ages, nor dies, nor is reborn, can neither be reached, seen, nor known by travelling... However, friend, I say that without reaching this end of the world, there cannot be any Ending of Suffering... It is just here within this fathom long carcass, endowed with conscious experience, that the world emerges, manifests, ceases, and the Way leading to its Ceasing is made known... Therefore, knowing this world to be thus, the intelligent one reach the end of the world, by completing the Noble life! Having directly known the world's end, at ease in peace, there remains no longing for this or any other world...!!! Source: The Connected Discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 62 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html This seems IMHO the most profound and far reaching statement in human history so far... The world start & ends within this very same frame of a conscious corpse... 600 years later the 'Mind-Only' idealists took this to the extreme by declaring: 'All is Empty'..., which though quite captivating, leads nowhere except ever deeper into the entangling jungle of speculative views... More about this 'quite deep middle way' tomorrow! Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44807 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:34am Subject: Visible like the Himalayas sarahprocter... Dear Jon & All, I gave you a card with a picture of the Himalayas on it from one of our trips. Inside I wrote out the following verse: ***** Dhp 304: “duure santo pakaasenti Himavanto’va pabbato Asant’ ettha na dissanti Ratti khittaa yathaa saraa” *** “Even from afar like the Himalaya mountain the good reveal themselves. The wicked, though near, are invisible like arrows shot by night.” (Narada transl. see*) ***** S: I was reflecting on how we not only experience what is ‘good’ according to our kamma, but also our ability to appreciate what is of value, too. The wisdom of the Buddha and the help of our kalyana mitta (good friends) can only be appreciated if there are the accumulations to do so. Here is the story: http://www.vipassana.info/k.htm#304 Verse 304, The Story of Culasubhadda *** >While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (304) of this book, with reference to Culasubhadda the daughter of Anathapindika. Anathapindika and Ugga, the rich man from Ugga, studied under the same teacher when they were both young. Ugga had a son while Anathapindika had a daughter. When their children came of age, Ugga asked for the consent of Anathapindika to the marriage of their two children. So the marriage took place, and Culasubhaddi, the daughter of Anathapindika, had to stay in the house of her parents-in-law. Ugga and his family were followers of non-Buddhist ascetics. Sometimes, they would invite those non-Buddhist ascetics to their house. On such occasions, her parents-in-law would ask Culasubhadda to pay respect to those naked ascetics, but she always refused to comply. Instead, she told her mother-in-law about the Buddha and his unique qualities. The mother-in-law of Culasubhadda was very anxious to see the Buddha when she was told about him by her daughter-in-law. She even agreed to let Culasubhaddha invite the Buddha for alms-food to their house. So, Culasubhadda prepared food and collected other offerings for the Buddha and his disciples. She then went up to the upper part of the house and looking towards the Jetavana monastery, she made offerings of flowers and incense and contemplate the unique qualities and virtues of the Buddha. She then spoke out her wish, "Venerable Sir! May it please you to come with your disciples, to our house tomorrow. I, your devoted lay-disciple, most respectfully invite you. May this invitation of mine bo made known to you by this symbol and gesture." Then she took eight fistfuls of jasmin and threw them up into the sky. The flowers floated through the air all the way to the Jetavana monastery and lay hanging from the ceiling of the congregation hall where the Buddha was expounding the Dhamma. At the end of the discourse, Anathapindika, the father of Culasubhadda, approached the Buddha to invite him to have alms-food in his house the following day. But the Buddha replied that he had already accepted Culasubhadda's invitation for the next day. Anathapindika was puzzled at the reply of the Buddha and said,"But, Venerable Sir! Culasubhadda does not live here in Savatthi; she lives in Ugga at a distance of one hundred and twenty yojanas from here." To him the Buddha said, "True, householder, but the good are clearly visible as if they are in one's very presence even though they may be living at a distance". Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: *** Verse 304. Like the Himalayas, the good are visible even from afar; like arrows shot in the night, the wicked are not seen even though they may be near. *** The next day, the Buddha came to the house of Ugga, the father-in-law of Culasubhadda. The Buddha was accompanied by five hundred bhikkhus on this trip; they all came through the air in decorated floats created by the order of Sakka, king of the devas. Seeing the Buddha in his splendour and glory, the parents-in-law of Culasubhadda were very much impressed and they paid homage to the Buddha. Then, for the next seven days, Ugga, and his family gave alms-food and made other offerings to the Buddha and his disciples.< Metta, Sarah * note the difference in the two translations of the verse. I’m guessing that the first (Narada’s) is correct, but maybe any Pali experts could verify this. ============== 44808 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Hi Robert K, ---------------------- RK: > I'd like to talk about this more. To be clear on your position, could we use some more examples. ---------------------- I will tell as I see it. Feel free to make corrections. ---------------------------------- RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? ---------------------------------- I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical procedure rather than as a paramattha dhamma. In fact, he doesn't know which kamma is present at any one moment, and there is no efficacy in favouring one conventional story over another. The doctor's livelihood is to perform operations as [legally] directed by the hospital. He should carry on that way, confident in his understanding of kamma and vipaka. ------------------------------- RK: > Or the pilot of the Bombing plane, misguided? ------------------------------- It is the same thing, and I am sure it is possible for him to drop bombs without committing murder. We have suttas to show that a public executioner (for example), after one thousand executions, had still not broken the first precept (even though he didn't realise that at the time). Not being an ariyan, how was he to know when there was the intention to kill, as distinct from the intention to obey the king? It would be good if we could abstain from everything, but livelihood activities are inevitable. Even the livelihood of a monk can look bad - e.g., when he refrains from earning an income while his family are starving. Nina said she didn't like to speculate on hypothetical situations, and I assume it was for the above reasons. We are no more able to pick and choose our kamma than we are any other paramattha dhamma. Ken H 44809 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:58am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Tep, Larry, all, Long time no write :-), thank you for responding. I see that Tep and Larry have also responded, but I have time for only one post. So I will go straight to your comments. -------------------------------- Htoo: > Sorry to butt in between your discussions. => Sukinder: You are welcome to do so with any of my posts. -------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin asked, 'So why choose a particular object such as breath?' > > I think The Buddha preached in detail regarding 'the practice leading > to nibbana'. The Buddha preached to bhikkhus who would re-teach lay > people. => Sukinder: I think you will agree that the only practice `leading to nibbana' is satipatthana and its development, leading to vipassana. Other kinds of kusala are indeed beneficial, the best of which is jhana. The Buddha encouraged all levels of kusala including dana, sila and samatha bhavana. But the important thing is that he also taught that all these are anatta, anicca and dukkha, that they are conditioned and beyond the control of this illusory `self'. To come to understand this, satipatthana is the only way. And when is the best time for this if not now? Certainly the idea of another time and place can only be a hindrance don't you think? So what according to you is the Dhamma taught by the Buddha to Bhikkhus who then were supposed to teach us? ------------------------------------- Htoo: > The Buddha included everything related to 'the practice'. There are > many meditation centres and many have different traditions. Some were > accused as teaching the 'rituals'. => Sukinder: My speculation is that Bhikkhus during and near the Buddha's time had the accumulations to develop samatha to the level of jhana. For them the life of the recluse was ideal for such practice and so everything was `natural' to them. They however more importantly, were also taught the practice unique to Buddha, namely satipatthana. This latter was indeed the sole reason for joining the Buddha's dispensation and not another. Satipatthana as you know encompasses all dhammas and this being the only one capable of leading to nibbana, the monks were encourage to understand all the other forms of kusala in light of this important teaching. This is why the Buddha would make reference to the different levels of jhana and the associated dhammas. It was so that the bhikkhu would understand them as only conditioned dhammas. I also speculate that because of the subtlety of this point that `all conditioned dhammas are to be known for what they are as they arise naturally by conditions' that in its place other more easily identifiable `methods' were created not so much by the layperson, but by the Bhikkhu Sangha which was by then already declining rapidly. The dhamma itself is hard to see and calls for an attitude of detachment, on the other hand outer activities and any inference we may draw from this is an object of lobha and wrong view. And this is why to the general audience during these times, this would prevail and come across as real dhamma. :-/ So no Htoo, whatever the meditation centres are teaching I do not take this as authority and indicative of real intent of the Buddha. And yes, I have no problem calling what they teach as `ritual'. -------------------------------- Htoo: > Some people 'CUT OUT almost everything' from the teachings and > encourage to do 'JUST DAILY LIFE contemplation while driving, > swimming, playing, shopping, etc etc.' => Sukinder: `Cut out'? What is cut out Htoo? Many on this list have frequently talked about the great value of every part of the Tipitaka and every bit of it. But I think the difference in our perspective is that you believe that some of the references to jhana practices for example, are prescriptions to be followed and developed in a proper formal way. And also it seems that you believe that vipassana can and must be developed by making up one's mind to formally sit. So it is understandable that you may single out `Daily life' and all associated activities as driving, swimming and so on, as just that. In other worlds for you `daily life' is one thing, and `formal practice' is another. From my perspective, `daily life' does not have anything to do with `ideally' doing anything. What ever arise is conditioned and can be understood. In other words it is not about *trying* to understand nama and rupa while swimming, playing, shopping and so on, but rather not to have wrong view about any of these conventional activities, thinking that one is better than another in terms of the development of satipatthana. The development of sati and panna should simplify our lives. By this I mean that increasingly what we used to take as real and eternal and subsequent stories we create around them, this tendency to complications should be reduced. I don't therefore see that creating yet new conventional situations and stories, i.e. someone who has to "do" something in order to develop understand, as leading to this end. I think that the world of the so called `meditator' becomes more cluttered with wrong view, though he may in conventional terms be `living simply'. ----------------------------------------- Htoo: > I do accept 'sati' and 'panna' etc etc. > > But I was wondering why peope are reluctant to accept 'breathing > meditation' as the genuine practice taught by The Buddha. => Sukinder: To me the four factors leading to sotapana seem to be a reasonable description of conditions leading to the development of right view. I don't see how concentrating on the breath can lead to this. I know that you are taking into consideration the associated passages in the Suttas that refer to being mindful of paramattha dhammas. But paramattha dhammas are no different while observing breath as they are when say, cooking. In the case of anapanasati, it is as pointed out by Jon and others, a description of an activity which is `natural' for a specific group of people. And no doubt this is kusala (samatha) different from cooking. But again samatha development for who? For most of us, whose accumulations of akusala far outweighs kusala and who may never in the past have developed anapanasati, we need to start from the very beginning. And this beginning is in `daily life' where our tendencies to both kusala and akusala can be observed unhindered by `self view'. The breath to someone of this very low level would be the object of akusala citta and this is what would be developing when intentionally concentrated upon. Breath can be a beneficial object only for developed panna and this panna has to develop from recognizing the danger in sense objects, and this must start now in daily life. On the other hand if someone has indeed developed the panna that sees acutely the danger in sense objects, say you Htoo, why associate this with the development of satipatthana? Maybe you could explain breath in terms of paccaya, I might then understand and be convinced about your position? ;-) Sorry for the long post. Metta, Sukinder 44810 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > >. We have suttas to show that a > public executioner (for example), after one thousand executions, had > still not broken the first precept (even though he didn't realise > that at the time). Not being an ariyan, how was he to know when > there was the intention to kill, as distinct from the intention to > obey the king? > >======== Dear Ken H, I think there is no sutta like this. You might be referring to the Dhammapada atthakatha? http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm "Tambadathika served the king as an executioner of thieves for fifty- five years; he had just retired from that post." One day he offered food to Sariputta ""After the meal, the thera taught him the Dhamma, but Tambadathika could not pay attention, because he was so agitated as he recollected his past life as an executioner. When the thera knew this, he decided to ask Tambadathika tactfully whether he killed the thieves because he wished to kill them or because he was ordered to do so. Tambadathika answered that he was ordered to kill them by the king and that he had no wish to kill. Then the thera asked, "If that is so, would you be guilty or not ?" Tambadathika then concluded that, as he was not responsible for the evil deeds, he was not guilty. He, therefore, calmed down, and requested the thera to continue his exposition. As he listened to the Dhamma with proper attention, he came very close to attaining Sotapatti Magga, and reached as far as anuloma nana.[*]"" This is not a case of Sariputta saying that there is no bad kamma from Tambadathika doing all those killings. Rather it is Sariputta skillfully showing that when wants to kill it is a worse deed than merely doing so because of duty. These differences in strength of kamma are becuase kamma is cetana. You could have 2 executioners doing the same job, killing teh same number of people, but one enjoys his work, the other does it only as a job. Both make akusala kamma but the one who enjoys it makes graver kamma. Or soldiers in battle- one is enraged and kills with great anger - heavier kamma than his comrade who kills reluctantly. Nevertheless both make akusala kamma patha. I write more later. Robertk 44811 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Asankhata foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Lisa, > > You bring up a good question that I don't have a good answer for: how do > we relate with conventional realities, like crossing the street, in a > pathwise way? We want to reach _both_ the other shore and the other > curb. Maybe some wholesome (kusala) cetasikas are needed here. > > Larry Hi Larry, If you carry my groceries I will cook you dinner! We can cross the road together if you wish, I'll watch for the truck you carry the cans of beans for chili tonight...lol I can't go away to the mountains or retreat to monastic life so I find the sutra, the thread here right where I am and guess what...I found you and all these lovely people here on this board. How nice is that!? Life can be lovely because of friends. What is more wholesome than make life a work of art while we are here? Most of the time I just watch my sensations and look out for big mac trucks that might squash me. Sometimes if I pay attention I find the most amazing jewels along the way...take care and thank you for sharing! With Metta, Lisa 44812 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too buddhistmedi... Hi Nina (Sukinder, Phil, Larry and Htoo) - Thank you Nina for being interested in my thought about "the present moment and Satipatthana" that was pondered by Sukin in his message # 44751. There are three points that Sukin made in that message, namely : 1)" After all as you say, "reality is where the present is found". This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. So we can keep talking about the importance of understanding the moment, but if there has not been any satipatthana, then the `present moment' will forever remain just an `idea'. " 2) "Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least comes to understand the difference between wrong and right sati and also realities and concepts. So even though the moments of right practice are very rare, the inclination to `wrong' practice nevertheless decreases". 3) "It is better to have only intellectual understand of what is and what is not the path, than to follow the wrong one, mistaking it for the right. The latter I think, will forever miss the `present moment' but would of course think otherwise." Tep's comments: 1) Sukinder is right that the present moment has to be known with Satipatthana (which is equivalent to 'atapi, sati and sampajanna' on rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma with no attachment). Because "atapi, sati and sampajanna on rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma with no attachment" is very difficult to arise again and again in every moment, therefore it is easy just to talk about it. 2) I admire Sukin's wise comment that the very first thing to know is to "understand the difference between wrong and right sati". I think this idea is parallel to understanding what is unwholesome and what is wholesome, and such idea is a building block of sammaditthi as expounded by the Great Arahant Sariputta in MN 9 <"When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma." >. 3) Absolutely! But this intellectual understanding should not be mistaken as everything and be complacent with it. There is more that needs to be done. Respectfully yours, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sukinder, > We have been discussing knowing characteristics and the present moment on > and on. but here in your post you touch on the essence: knowing when there > is sati and when there isn't. > Very good to discuss and consider this more often. > I have put this post into my favorites file. > I am interested about what Tep, Phil and others will say! > Nina. > > op 25-04-2005 03:08 schreef Sukinder op sukinder@k...: > > > I was thinking about the meaning of `present moment' and how > > this is understood better as one understands dhammas. After all as you > > say, "reality is where the present is found". > > This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of > > knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. So we can keep talking > > about the importance of understanding the moment, but if there has not > > been any satipatthana, then the `present moment' will forever remain > > just an `idea'. Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least > > comes to understand the difference between wrong and right sati and > > also realities and concepts. So even though the moments of right > > practice are very rare, the inclination to `wrong' practice nevertheless > > decreases. 44813 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visitors 1 (was: Musings10 .....) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, snip..snip.. ... S: Citta is the host, but we forget that citta changes and is 'affected' all the time, depending on the visitors which arise. The citta itself is 'pure' or 'clear' (pandara). Apologies for any confusion. Metta, Sarah ======= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. It makes sense that 'citta' is appointed as 'the host'. It is 'hypothetical pure citta.' With Metta, Htoo Naing 44814 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, Snip ... snip ... ... S: At least we agree here now:-). I'll resist going into 'who said what':-). Maybe some misunderstanding which can happen easily, but at least all's clear for now. Thank you for clarifying. Metta, Sarah ======= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Done! Yes. There is agreement and it works. So one point is done. I am also looking for the answer to the second point that is one of the topic of DSG. It is formal sitting. Or formal meditation. When I can find it (the answer) I will let you know like kamma matter of kamma and kamma-patha. With respect, Htoo Naing 44815 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo, Tep, Larry, all, Long time no write :-), thank you for responding. I see that Tep .. .. snip ... snip ... The breath to someone of this very low level would be the object of akusala citta and this is what would be developing when intentionally concentrated upon. ... snip ... snip ... Breath can be a beneficial object only for developed panna and this panna has to develop from recognizing the danger in sense objects, and this must start now in daily life. On the other hand if someone has indeed developed the panna that sees acutely the danger in sense objects, say you Htoo, why associate this with the development of satipatthana? Maybe you could explain breath in terms of paccaya, I might then understand and be convinced about your position? ;-) Sorry for the long post. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, and interested members of DSG, Your post is excellent and non-tiring unlike other long-posters I met. I just snipped away as I agree all. Yes. Long time no write. I still remember that you invited me to DSG over 2 years ago. 'Breathing meditation' was taught by The Buddha. It is genuine teachings. It was taught several times or many times. But the problem here is our label of 'breathing meditation'. Mahasatipatthana sutta which is described in Mahavagga of Digha Nikaaya of Tipitaka definitely say about 'breathing'. Regarding teachers, they instruct how to follow the laid out path. There may be many traditions. I value all and I do not accuse of anyone's method not genuine. Example is Mahasi Sayadaw's method. When I studied what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, I did not find any flaws. But once I read someone wrote that 'commentaries such as Mahasi Sayadaw are not in line with Sutta teachings and the worst is Venerable Buddhaghosa, who wrote Visuddhimagga'. When these are read by someone who are stick to Suttas and who are not respected to Abhidhamma, they may remember who said above words. But these words did not appear in this forum of DSG, I think. Mahasi Sayadaw beautifully taught realities. In the opening part of 'how to meditate vipassana', Sayadaw said that 'Vipassana is the practice to see the realities of nama and rupa that arise within the body'. Mahasatipatthana Sutta is a valid sutta and in that sutta all the instructions necessary to be on the right path are described. Mahasi Sayadaw explained the sutta word by word with evidences from tipitaka teachings. I have already posted 'Mahasatipatthana and Vipassana'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44816 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:24am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your questions. You wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo, To say "there is no self " (because 'self ' is a consequence of atta- vadupadana : clinging to the personality view) is one thing, and to say that "there is noone who acts" is another thing. I want to make sure. So when you wrote that there was no Tep, which of the following did you essentially have in mind? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's quiz: a)There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. b)The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. c)There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. d)Or, all of the above? Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Am I right to put your questions into quiz form as above? After confirmation, I will answer. Or someone else may also answer if he or she finds your confirmed quiz. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44817 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread (337) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) Janaka kamma and upatthambhaka kamma are discussed in the previous post. The third kamma in this series of regenerative kamma are upapiilaka kamma. This kamma, upapiilaka kamma is diminishing kamma or weakening kamma. This kamma reduce the effect of janaka kamma. When there is upapiilaka kamma, janaka kamma cannot give rise to its full effect. Upapiilaka kamma itself does not have the same power of janaka kamma. But when upapiilaka kamma exists, janaka kamma becomes weaken even though there will be its results. Upapiila kamma is like water in case of burning fire. The function of fire is to burn whatever it meets. So fire will destroy everything on his way. But when there is water, fire cannot burn completely. Water does hinder the function of fire. Like this simile, when there are janaka kamma and at the same time when there are upapiilaka kamma, then janaka kamma cannot give rise to their full results or their full effects. This happen because of the presence of upapiilaka kamma, whose function is to diminish others' kamma or to weaken others' kamma. Even though there are diminishing kamma like upapiilaka kamma, janaka kamma are still capable of giving rise to their effect. But the effects are not in full term. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44818 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:10am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] A Quiz! buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I couldn't help laughing when I saw the label, " Tep's quiz." > Htoo: > > Am I right to put your questions into quiz form as above? After > confirmation, I will answer. Or someone else may also answer if he or > she finds your confirmed quiz. > Sure, put the questions up as a quiz. But, of course, there will be no grading of any answers by me! Hey, if Nina says " I am not teaching", then I can say that I am not grading. I am looking forward to see your interesting answer and analysis, Htoo. Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your questions. > > You wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > To say "there is no self " (because 'self ' is a consequence of atta- > vadupadana : clinging to the personality view) is one thing, and to > say that "there is noone who acts" is another thing. > > I want to make sure. > > So when you wrote that there was no Tep, which of the following did > you essentially have in mind? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep's quiz: > > a)There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. > > b)The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? > Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this > message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. > > c)There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are > not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. > > d)Or, all of the above? > > Sincerely, > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 44819 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Analyse meditation with Abhidhamma foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Lisa, > > I'm really very impressed at the way you've clearly come from other > schools or disciplines of Buddhism but are eagerly picking up all the > Theravada lingo and fitting in so well here and joining in all the > discussions. You make many excellent comments too. > > Dear Sarah, Thank you you are so kind and helpful. My teacher who was a Zen Abbot from Korea and never taught me his tradition instead his teacher a very old man in his eighties that interviewed me said I must learn from the root of Buddhas teachings the Pali Canon. I don't think I have a tradition. I studied the Pali Canon and certain suttas plus practiced anpanasati, vipassana, and metta meditation for ten years before I started my study of Mahayana doctrine and sutra. My Dhamma teacher Sunim had me study the history and culture of Gotama in India so I could understand the difference between culture and Dhamma and what Gotama was pointing to on an intellectual level. Sunim told me it was important to know what one was going to meditate on before they actually started meditation. He stressed the understanding of Equanimity to me because I was very emotional at that time. I had never done any meditation before so this was all new to me the discipline of the mind was what I wanted and that is what I got. I'm still that little red-necked girl from the West Coast near Mt. Hood that likes to go barefoot in the summer but now I don't lose my temper if I stub my toe! Let me tell you, understanding equanimity just on an intellectual level helped me stick it out on my first retreat...I stuck to the ground like a pole was nailing me to the ground! An interesting meditation for me is to hug those I like or don't like and try and view sensation and breath without judging or reacting out of habits. I don't go hugging everyone but I also do this when I'm talking this is the hardest one for me to stay with. I get lost easily when I talk!!! With Metta, Lisa 44820 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. matheesha333 Hi Evan, Sorry for the late reply. Here some info on the centre. Your link was correct. The centre runs courses every 2 weeks, twice a month, every month. Each bach consists of about 20-30 practitioners. Participants are assigned to a meditation instructor and they will look into your progress. There are two instructors who can guide you in English. The Day is from 4.00 to 21.00 with two vegetarian meals and a snack in the evening. Plenty of time for personal meditation practice, apart from the two group sessions during the day. Time will be allocated to discuss your progress with your instructor. Chanting also takes place but is optional. The practice methods are tranquility (includuing cultivation of jhana) training followed by insight (vipassana). They use Mindfulness of Breath, Metta meditation, Body contemplation, and Vipassana for this purpose. It is free of charge. Most practitioners achieve quite a lot including the 4 jhanas and the insight knowledges -with proper practice of course. metta Matheesha 44821 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:56am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) buddhistmedi... Friend Sarah (any interested members are welcome)- So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? a) Accumulate the paramis little by little like the Buddha and those great Arahants did (before they met the Buddha). Never look beyond day-to day, moment-to- moment practice of Satipatthana. Never concern ourself when panna will arise, or how it is being developed, because panna and any conditioned dhamma cannot be controlled. Do not concern if we can or cannot eradicate all the defilements in this life. Never think whether or not we have been doing the right things and are making progress in the Dhamma. Just let it be. Never try harder, because it is lobha and moha directed. b) Learn and know all dhammas (the bodhipakkheya dhammas) that are needed to help us become at least Sotapanna. Then practice according to the Eightfold path to perfect the path factors, and never "shrink back from the struggle and struggle on" to develop the "faculty(indriya) of energy", based on "zeal and ardour, vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort", with "unflinching endurance" until the goal is attained in this very life. Or even if we may not attain the goal, at least we would be well prepared when death comes. c) Whatever theme that is most suitable to each individual, which may be a combination of a) and b) above. Respectfully. Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > Right understanding cannot be developed within a short time. > The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, had to develop > wisdom for aeons. He developed satipaììhåna with great patience > and an unshakable energy. > (snipped) > We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Chapter I, §5) that the Buddha said to the monks that he did not shrink back from the struggle and struggled on thus: > * > "Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my > body's flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what > may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving". > By my earnest endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the > unrivalled freedom from the bond. > * > ***** > [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 44822 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:12am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] htootintnaing Dear Tep, As confirmation has been done by you, I will put your questions into the following format. The original theme derives from your words 'Tep was wrong' when I said Nina was not wrong etc and I wrote that there is no Tep at all. Now your questions are set up into this format; Tep's quiz: a)There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You said you are not grading as Nina said she is not teaching. Now I will answer and I may be wrong, may be right, may be partly wrong or partly right. Answer to a) a) No. There is no being from the start. That is why I said 'there is no Tep at all. But I am not using 'emptiness'. I think 'emptiness' is not Theravadan. As there is no being, we do not need to think out 'who acts'. As there is no being, there is no Tep at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's quiz b) b)The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer to b) These sentences are complicated. But when I read your quiz b) what I see is ; There is no one. So there is no one to act. So there is no one to experience. As there is no being, there is no one who made an error. As there is no one, there is no comparison between 2 non-existences. Even the above message of your quiz is just nothing but 'rupa' which comes in the form, shape, light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's quiz c) c)There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer to c) True. This is a real quiz. The whole message is true. Quiz a) and b) are not genuine quiz. Because there is no clean cut right or wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's quiz d) d)Or, all of the above? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer to d) False. As quiz a) and quiz b) are not true quiz, all cannot be right and all cannot be wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's conclusion: Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's conclusion: With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Am I right to put your questions into quiz form as above? After > confirmation, I will answer. Or someone else may also answer if he or > she finds your confirmed quiz. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44823 From: nina Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:56am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 154, 155, and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 154, 155. Intro: Among the sobhana cetasikas that arise with the first type of mahaa-kusala citta accompanied by paññaa, there are five inconstant (aniyata) cetasikas and these are: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. As we read in the Vis. (Ch XIV, 133): --------------- Text Vis.154: (xxxii)-(xxxiii) 'Compassion' and 'gladness' should be understood as given in the Description of the Divine Abodes (Ch.IX,92,94,95), except that those are of the fine-material sphere and have attained to absorption, while these are of the sense sphere. This is the only difference. ------------------ N: Compassion (karu.na) and gladness (sympathetic joy, muditaa) accompany the mahaa-kusala citta when there is an opportunity for their arising. They do not arise at the same time. They are directed towards living beings. Compassion has the characteristic of wanting to allay someone else¹s suffering. There may also be aversion about someone¹s suffering, but that is not compassion. Sympathetic joy is the appreciation of someone else¹s good fortune or his wholesome qualities. At that moment there is no jealousy. ------------- Text Vis.: Some, however, want to include among the inconstant both lovingkindness and equanimity. That cannot be accepted for, as to meaning, non-hate itself is lovingkindness, and specific neutrality is equanimity. ------------------ N: The cetasikas adosa and tatramajjhattataa (equanimity), arise with every sobhana citta. Thus, they are not among the inconstant cetasikas. They are among the four divine abidings when they have the specific qualities of mettaa and equanimity that are directed towards living beings. ------------ Text Vis. 155: (xxxiv)-(xxxvi) 'Abstinence from bodily misconduct': the compound kaayaduccaritavirati resolves as kaayaduccaritato virati; so also with the other two. But as regards characteristic, etc., these three have the characteristic of non-transgression in the respective fields of bodily conduct, etc.; ------------------ N: The Tiika elaborates on the objects of transgression as being someone else¹s life, wealth or spouse. It is misconduct to take the life, possessions or spouse of someone else. -------------------- Text Vis.: they have the characteristic of not treading there, is what is said. -------------------- N: Abstinence from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood do not tread ot trespass on each other¹s field. Thus, when there is abstinence from wrong speech, there is not at the same time abstinence from wrong action. Each citta has only one object at a time. The three abstinences are also called right speech, right action and right livelihood. ------------------ Text Vis.: Their function is to draw back from the fields of bodily misconduct, and so on. They are manifested as the not doing of these things. Their proximate causes are the special qualities of faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on. They should be regarded as the mind's averseness from evil-doing. ---------------- N: When one of the abstinences arises with mahaa-kusala citta, there are also confidence in wholesomeness, shame of akusala and fear of blame, and many other sobhana cetasikas. When there is fewness of wishes, one does not think of one¹s own gain or well-being, and this is also a proximate cause for abstention from evil. -------------------- The Tiika explains the difference between abstention from evil, virati, and shame and fear of blame, hiri and ottappa. Hiri and ottappa do not commit evil because of disgust (jigucchana). The Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 142, states about hiri and ottappa: Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too nilovg Hi Larry, op 26-04-2005 01:34 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Of course attachment > should be experienced with the same nonattachment as the object of > satipatthana. N: Right, it *is* an object of sati of satipatthana. Nina. 44825 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Too nilovg Hi Tep, op 26-04-2005 15:10 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > There are three points that Sukin made in that message, namely : > > 1)" After all as you say, "reality is where the present is found". > This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of > knowing when there is sati and when there isn't..... > 2) "Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least comes to > understand the difference between wrong and right sati and also > realities and concepts. ..... > 3) "It is better to have only intellectual understand of what is and what is > not the path, than to follow the wrong one, mistaking it for the right. .... > Tep's comments: > > 1) Sukinder is right that the present moment has to be known with > Satipatthana (which is equivalent to 'atapi, sati and sampajanna' on > rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma with no attachment). Because "atapi, > sati and sampajanna on rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma with no > attachment" is very difficult to arise again and again in every moment, > therefore it is easy just to talk about it. ---------- N: We should go more into the matter: when is there sati, when is there not. We do not have to think of the four Applications, we do not have to think of being without attachment. Sati may arise or it may not, we never know, and we cannot plan for it. We are usually absorbed in thinking of concepts. I was cutting vegetables and Lodewijk was playing the piano. I thought of the melody, was thinking about it (pled plen). But there was also sound, I could not help it. This is only an example, sati may arise or it may not. Sound is a rupa and it is different from thinking of music or the melody. We can consider this, since we heard this again and again, and in this way it sinks in. I licked my finger and happened to taste the flavour of the green leaf. Sati may arise or it may not. Tasting is nama, different from flavour, different from thinking what it is. It is most important not to plan anything, because that will always be done with clinging to an idea of self. There can be thinking of nama and rupa, noticing them and sometimes awareness. In this way we shall find out ourselves when there is sati and when there is not. Nobody else can tell us. But let us remember: sati may arise or it may not. It has its own sweet way as Jon likes to say. -------- T: 2) I admire Sukin's wise comment that the very first thing to know is > to "understand the difference between wrong and right sati". I think this > idea is parallel to understanding what is unwholesome and what is > wholesome, .... ----------- N: I just want to add : we have to discern when subtle lobha plays us a trick and makes us believe that there is right awareness, whereas in reality there is only clinging to a false idea of awareness. We may not even notice this. ---------- T 3) Absolutely! But this intellectual understanding should not be > mistaken as everything and be complacent with it. There is more that > needs to be done. ------------ N: Only one characteristic of either a rupa or a nama appears at a time, not a concept of a whole. not a story. When we truly understand intellectually at first that rupa does not know anything, and that nama is the element that knows, there is the right foundation. What follows will come because of its own conditions, and not because of our doing. Nina. 44826 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Sukin, Htoo, Phil, James, Larry and others) - Thank you much for another opportunity in dhamma discussion with you. I know that there are some stubborn issues that refuse to go away. N: We are usually absorbed in thinking of concepts. I was cutting vegetables and Lodewijk was playing the piano. I thought of the melody, was thinking about it (pled plen). But there was also sound, I could not help it. ... ...< Only one characteristic of either a rupa or a nama appears at a time, not a concept of a whole, not a story.> T: The above example -- thinking about the melody (concept) instead of the sound (reality) -- simply explains why at that moment there can be no sati about a characteristic of the sound. It is because your attention was on the melody - plain and simple! Another example you gave was on flavor (pannatti) versus taste (a nama); it was a good one. ----------------------------------- N: It is most important not to plan anything, because that will always be done with clinging to an idea of self. There can be thinking of nama and rupa, noticing them and sometimes awareness. In this way we shall find out ourselves when there is sati and when there is not. T: I can see that planning anything (mental formations) would result in losing sati-sampajanna on the realities in the present moment. But I am not sure how clinging may get involved in any planning activity as long as it is done offline (i.e. while not contemplating a reality). I heard you mentioned that lobha might play a trick on us - but I am not sure how it might happen. ---------------------------------------- N: We should go more into the matter: when is there sati, when is there not. We do not have to think of the four Applications, we do not have to think of being without attachment. T: I see your point that whenever we fail to have sati (on characteristics of a rupa or a nama) in the present moment, then our Satipatthana practice is in vain. However, I think the present moment is too small to accomodate thinking of all four foundations of mindfulness. I can do that kind of thinking only when I am reading or pondering. I think the causality knowledge that vedana conditions attachment (upadana) together with an awareness of the danger of not letting go are very important for direct knowing (e.g. see MN 149). Don't you think so? N: When we truly understand intellectually at first that rupa does not know anything, and that nama is the element that knows, there is the right foundation. What follows will come because of its own conditions, and not because of our doing. T: I agree with the first sentence, Nina. But the second sentence is not convincing. I think such understanding is not a panna-bala, so it may stop at the "rightfoundation" level - you can't fly to the moon on a helicopter. Can you show by an example how such intellectual understanding will fly high to the lokuttara level? To explain why I have been stubborn, let me quote from the Visuddhimagga as follows: Concentration is for the purpose of correct knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is for the purpose of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of greed], fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the purpose of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and vision of deliverance is for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging. [Vism. I, 32]. The intellectual understanding can't even give us the kind of concentration that leads to dispassion. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 26-04-2005 15:10 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > There are three points that Sukin made in that message, namely : > > (snipped) > ------------ > N: Only one characteristic of either a rupa or a nama appears at a time, not a concept of a whole. not a story. When we truly understand intellectually at first that rupa does not know anything, and that nama is the element that knows, there is the right foundation. What follows will come because of its own conditions, and not because of our doing. > > Nina. 44827 From: "mnease" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhanas, to Mike. mlnease Hi Nina, Replying very late, sorry-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 3:58 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhanas, to Mike. M: I hope Nina can tell us if I've understood this correctly, as I really don't understand jhaanacittas either. N: I don't either and I tell you why. I enjoy the good things of life: music, paintings, a nice house, good food, good company, etc. But, but: we have to rmember that the aim of the jhanas is being removed from the sense objects and the enjoyment bound up with them. If we do not have this as our goal, I do not think jhana can be developed. We have to be very sincere and truthful with regard to our intentions, otherwise we delude ourselves all the time. If a person dedicates himself to samatha only for a limited time jhana cannot be attained. He has to drastically change his lifestyle, he should not enjoying sense objects anymore. M: Right, I think this is well born out by the texts. Moreover, great pañña and also mindfulness are necessary to know when there is calm and when there is clinging to the result of the development of samatha. M: Right-- One has to be mindful of and directly understand the cetasikas which are the jhanafactors such as applied thinking and sustained thinking. One has to know when rapture, piiti, is kusala and when it accompanies attachment. If paññaa is not keen one may take for jhana what is only a kind of trance that has nothing to do with the purity of kusala jhanacitta. In order to abandon some jhanafactors in order to attain higher jhanas, paññaa has to investigate the jhanafactors and know them very precisely. This has to be investigated at each stage of jhana, not merely at the fourth stage. He has to have the masteries, vasiis: entering jhana whenever he wants, emerging from it whenever he wants, etc. When someone truly has accumulations for jhana, he can use jhana as a base of insight. But one should not underestimate the development of samatha to the degree of jhana. M: Understood and agreed--or the great rarity of the conditions for doing so, as I understand it. mike 44828 From: "mnease" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge 4 mlnease Hi Nina, Still catching up: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge 4 > There isn't a certain order of mindfulness, there is no rule. > In the Visuddhimagga it is said that some consider dhammas as the eighteen > elements (Ch XVIII, 9 and so on), some as the twelve aayatanas, some as the > khandhas. This is very personal, it depends on the individual's > accumulation. When we read these texts it seems only theory, and it seems > that a certain order is given. We have to think of the order of teaching, > adapted to the individual's inclination. > The Tiika explains that one first knows realities by inference and later on > by direct experience. Interesting--theory first, then practice...? mike 44829 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Thank you a whole lot for playing my quiz game with me - just for a little laugh. -- So, your selection is c) Tep is just a label. There is no real Tep. -- You were right about a) that it was based on the sunnata concept. But there is a Theravada doctrine on emptiness too. Nyanatiloka says the following: (quoted Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind-consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." -- The quiz part b) "The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences?" is based on the concept of kamma. In SN XII.46 (Annatra Sutta) a brahman asked the Buddha : "Is the one who acts the same one who experiences [the results of the act]?", and our Great Sage answered : "To say, 'The one who acts is the same one who experiences,' is one extreme." The brahman then asked further, "Then, is the one who acts someone other than the one who experiences?". And, as you may expect, the answer was the same, i.e. it was another extreme ! I prefer a) and c) over b), but d) just doesn't make sense - plain and simple. Respectfully yours, Tep [If one's mindfulness is established & unmuddled; if one's body is calm & unaroused; if one's mind is centered & unified: then whatever body position one is in (walking, standing, sitting or lying down), the person with such ardency & concern is called continually & continuously resolute, one with persistence aroused.] {Adapted from Iti IV.12; Iti 118} ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > (snipped) > Tep's quiz: > > a)There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You said you are not grading as Nina said she is not teaching. Now I > will answer and I may be wrong, may be right, may be partly wrong or > partly right. > > Answer to a) > > a) No. There is no being from the start. That is why I said 'there is > no Tep at all. But I am not using 'emptiness'. I think 'emptiness' is > not Theravadan. As there is no being, we do not need to think > out 'who acts'. As there is no being, there is no Tep at all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep's quiz b) > > b)The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? > Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this > message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Answer to b) > > These sentences are complicated. But when I read your quiz b) what I see is ; > > There is no one. So there is no one to act. So there is no one to > experience. As there is no being, there is no one who made an error. > As there is no one, there is no comparison between 2 non-existences. > > Even the above message of your quiz is just nothing but 'rupa' which > comes in the form, shape, light. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep's quiz c) > > c)There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are > not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Answer to c) > > True. This is a real quiz. The whole message is true. Quiz a) and b) > are not genuine quiz. Because there is no clean cut right or wrong. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep's quiz d) > > d)Or, all of the above? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Answer to d) > > False. As quiz a) and quiz b) are not true quiz, all cannot be right > and all cannot be wrong. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 44830 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, I was saying: ----------------------------- > > At any point in time, including now, there are really only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. ------------------------------ To which you replied: ----------------------------------------------- > To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like generosity. -------------------------- 'Paramattha dhammas' is the Pali name for 'absolute realities.' So, rather than 'nothing to do with reality' they are 'everything to do with reality.' They are mental phenomena and physical phenomena (in Pali: namas and rupas). There are three kinds of nama. They are consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasikas) and Nibbana. There are twenty-eight kinds of rupa, which include all the objects of sense consciousness and the physical bases of contact. There are six types of citta. They are the five sense consciousnesses and mind consciousness. And there are fifty-two types of 'cetasika.' They are sanna (perception), vedana (feeling), cetana (volition), phassa (contact), lobha (attachment), alobha (non- attachment), . . . . and so on. At any one moment in time there is one citta and a small number of cetasikas plus one or more rupas, and that is our entire world. The Buddhist practice is to directly know one of those namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment. When we do that, we know the world as it truly is and we lose our attachment and infatuation for it. ------------------------------ <. . .> C: > Then please define/explain, in plan English, saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and anatta. ------------------------------ The first four are cetasikas, and the fifth (anatta, soullessness) is one the inherent characteristics of cetasikas. (It is also an inherent characteristic of cittas, rupas and Nibbana.) An ordinary person who is untrained in the Dhamma can know about faith, doubt, harmlessness, hatred and other aspects of every-day life, but he does not know them as they truly are. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there are phenomena with the same general description as certain every-day concepts, but which have their own absolute existence - independent of any person who might think about them. As conditioned realities (conditioned paramattha dhammas), they arise, perform their functions and desist in the shortest possible period of time. And so they cannot possibly be directly known to anyone who is not extremely well trained in the Dhamma. That is why the way to enlightenment is in learning about paramattha dhammas and understanding how they exist here and now. Ken H 44831 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:41pm Subject: Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 philofillet Hi Charles, Ken and all > > To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to > do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like > generosity. > -------------------------- Charles, you're probably thinking of the paramis. They are six in Mahayana, 10 in Theravada. As you say, mental factors, but the mental factors are realities as well. Metta, Phil 44832 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - 5 Questions philofillet Hi all I'd like to try to answer these questions - it really does help me to develop my understanding. I hope other people (especially those with faith in Abhidhamma) will give feedback so it doesn't have to fall on Nina. Thanks in advance. > 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its function? There is ekagatta cetasika with every citta - it is one of the universals. We can say ekagatta's function is to concentrate, but I think there is another way to put it. I can't recall. I think as for characteristic or manifestation, there is a simile about ekagatta helping conascent states to blend together, the way bath salts (?) blend together in water. > 2) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the > jhanacitta? What is its object? It's object is the meditation subject. I guess it's function is to help the other factors hold on to the meditation subject, moment by moment. (We would tend to think that concentration is something that is held on to over a period of time, but of course it rises and falls away moment by moment like any other cetasika, conditioned, beyond our direct control.) > 3) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika arising with the panna > (wisdom) of the Eightfold Path which realizes a characteristic of nama > or rupa? What is its object at that moment? Is this where the object is either anatta, dukkha or annica, depending on the accumulations of the person? No, I guess not, that is related to the last javana of a lifetime. So isn't the object just the nama or rupa that is penetrated by panna, assisted by ekagata and the other universals and some particulars such as virya and vitaka? > 4) Why is mindfulness of breathing one of the most difficult subjects of > meditation? I guess one problem is that because the breath is so easy to control, it can lead to deepening of self-view, when people who don't have the proper conditions try to exert control through mindfulness of the breath, perhaps bringing a reassuring sense of well-being and control over akusala, but at what cost in the long term? > 5) What is the difference between samma-sati (right mindfulness) in > samatha and samma-sati in vipassana? What are their respective > objects of awareness? In the former, the objecet is the meditation subject. In the latter, it is a parammatha dhamma, a nama or rupa seen with panna. I have learned (not through expereince) that the former will help to subdue defilements temporarily, but they will arise again when conditions permit. The latter is more helpful in the long run, because it can condition the eradication of defilements. I can't remember just how a moment of panna helps to eradicate defilements, but if it doesn't I want my money back. > > I think Phil, Sukin and Htoo will be glad to answer these questions > because they strongly relate to the ongoing discussion on breath > meditation. I am the wrong person to talk about meditation. For me, there are not the proper conditions for breath meditation or for seeking jhanas. But as I have learned, never say never - we should not set limits on the way we expect the path to develop for us. That is another thing that is beyond our control to do. Conditions understood with wisdom. Metta, Phil 44833 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata philofillet Hi Lisa Thanks for describing your meditation. You write with such confidence and enthusiasm. I can get an idea of how the benefits you gain from meditation have a great influence on the people in your life. Since I am not now a meditator and have never studied with a meditation teacher, please feel free to disregard my comments. And perhaps if you can encourage me about the benefits of meditation, it will help condition a return to the meditation mat for me! :) > I used the breath to help me focus because it is always there and I > can control it as I wish Isn't the point of the Buddha's teaching to move beyond controlling things, to understand anatta? Is this a technique that you use now in anticipation of letting it go when it is no longer necessary? I mean, I can't imagine sotapannas go through daily life using the breath as a mindfulness device in the way you describe. Should we develop practices that the enlightened ones (sotapannas and beyond) would not engage in? I am talking about the daily life pratices you describe, not your meditation. >plus it can tell me what is happening within > the mind/body before my brain can process data. Can't we develop insight directly into what is rising and falling in the mind, body without relying on the breath to tell us? I know the former is a difficult task but if we approach it with patience won't it lead us more deeply towards detachment from what is happening within the mind/body? Those are kind of rhetorical questions, I know. And I am nowhere close to directly understanding realities - it is all still intellectual for me - so I am not one to talk. > It is directly linked > to the unconscious. It moves differently when I am angry, happy, > frustrated, content and so on. This is interesting. I can see how the breathing mindfulness you do could help you to be emotionally healthy - I can see that. And emotional health is important for ourselves and the people around us. But wouldn't it be better to patiently develop direct understanding of anger, aversion, bliss etc - they are realities whose chracteristics can be experienced - without going throught the breath as bridge? If we are seeking true liberation, shouldn't we be able to experience and see through whatever comes our way, no matter how unpleasnt or unwholesome, see thorugh it and now it for what it is (impermanent, suffering and anatta) without fending it off by intentional, unnatural techniques. I think of that beautiful sutta about the lotus growing in the muck. All the pleasant and unpleasant sensations, feelings etc that we go through are material for the development of understanding. I know that you say you return to the breath without aversion, so you are not being knee-jerk about it, but still.... Just some thoughts from someone who doesn't meditate formally but is interested in hearing about the way people do it. And obviously your practice is well established and bringing you benefits so you can easily disregard my comments. (As you say "you gotta be there to know") Thanks, and keep coming with your energizing posts! Metta, Phil 44834 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Phil: "I am nowhere close to directly understanding realities " Hi Phil, Just an idle thought. Not understanding realities...is a reality. Larry 44835 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Hi Phil, Another thought. If directly understanding realities is understanding realities without concepts then we all misunderstand realities conceptually but understand realities directly. Larry 44836 From: "seisen_au" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma/Vipaka seisen_au Hi Sarah Hmm, well that would make sense :-)) Thanks Steve > > what term is used for kamma produced rupa? > ... > S: kamma produced rupa (kammaja rupa):-). > 44837 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:35pm Subject: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Hi Larry I think I'll rename this thread. It's a fundamental topic that is always good to reflect on. > Another thought. If directly understanding realities is understanding > realities without concepts then we all misunderstand realities > conceptually but understand realities directly. But I guess there are different levels of understanding, so we can understand a reality - a universal cetasika like sanna for example - intellectually (i.e conceptually) without understanding it directly. So not understanding it directly doesn't necessarily mean misunderstanding it? To me , misunderstanding implies that we are led into a trap and wrong practice, but even if understanding is only intellectual it can keep us out of trouble. Misunderstanding vs. not understanding yet? More important is this "direcly understand realities." To tell the truth, though I throw that phrase around so easily, I don't yet understand what it means to understand a reality directly without thinking about it. By the time I am aware of anger, say, of its characteristics when it arises, there is *always* some degree of thinking involved, or so it seems to me. Citta processes are so incredibly fast, and I am proliferating before I know it. But this is not something to fret about. There are some things we don't have the conditions to know yet. I liked that previous post - even knowing that we don't understand realities is a reality. True! But still thinking for me... Metta, Phil 44838 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ---------------------------------- > RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion > refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? > ---------------------------------- > > I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical procedure > rather than as a paramattha dhamma. In fact, he doesn't know which > kamma is present at any one moment, and there is no efficacy in > favouring one conventional story over another. > > The doctor's livelihood is to perform operations as [legally] > directed by the hospital. He should carry on that way, confident in > his understanding of kamma and vipaka. > >=========== Dear Ken, I assume you agree that a sotapanna would never perform an abortion operation? Yet a sotapanna has no wrong view and profound insight into anatta. So I can't follow why you think a putthujana doctor who has some understanding of kamma/vipaka and anatta should do the operation. Surely the more understanding a doctor has the less keen he would be to follow the directions of the hospital? Kamma is not a matter of whether a service is legal or illegal. Robertk 44839 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:24pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 178 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Many of the Buddha’s disciples developed the eightfold Path and attained enlightenment as well. However, they also had to accumulate right understanding during countless lives in order to attain enlightenment. When we read about the lives of the Buddha’s disciples in the Thera-therí-gåthå (Psalms of the Brothers and Sisters) we see that they also, like we, had periods of slackness with regard to the development of satipaììhåna. However, ordinary events in their daily lives could stir them and remind them of the urgency to develop right understanding. We read that the Thera Uttiya (Thera-gåthå 30) had no purity of síla and could not attain enlightenment. The Buddha taught him in brief the purification of síla and the purification of view (1). Uttiya developed insight and then he became ill. The Commentary to the “Thera-gåthå” ( the Paramatthadípaní) relates: “In his anxiety he put forth every effort and attained arahatship”. He spoke the following verse with reference to the event which stirred him to continue to develop insight until he had reached the goal: * "Since sickness has befallen me, O now Let there arise in me true mindfulness. Sickness has now befallen me—‘t is time For me no more to dally or delay." * Sickness can remind us that we are not master of our body. What we take for “our body” and for “our mind” are only conditioned rúpas and nåmas which are beyond control. If we merely think of nåma and rúpa we will not know them as they are. Mindfulness of the reality which appears now is the only way to eventually know the true nature of realities. *** 1) See Kindred Sayings V, Kindred Sayings on the Applications of Mindfulness, Chapter I, §3,5,6. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44840 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > Friend Sarah (any interested members are welcome)- > > So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? ... S: With respect, I think there is already a problem with the question – it is the very view of *us*, *doing* and *something* which takes the practice off-track. So when you give the following alternative/combined answers, there still seems to be an idea of doing or not doing something, an idea of selection or control over the presently arising dhammas. Please correct me if I’m wrong here. .... > a) Accumulate the paramis little by little like the Buddha and those > great Arahants did (before they met the Buddha). Never look beyond > day-to day, moment-to- moment practice of Satipatthana. <...> > b) Learn and know all dhammas (the bodhipakkheya dhammas) that > are needed to help us become at least Sotapanna. Then practice > according to the Eightfold path to perfect the path factors, and > never "shrink back from the struggle and struggle on" to develop > the "faculty(indriya) of energy <...> > c) Whatever theme that is most suitable to each individual, which may > be a combination of a) and b) above. <...> ***** > wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom <..> > > Right understanding cannot be developed within a short time. > > The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, had to develop > > wisdom for aeons. He developed satipaììhåna with great patience > > and an unshakable energy. > > > (snipped) > > > We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Chapter I, §5) that > the Buddha said to the monks that he did not shrink back from the > struggle and struggled on thus: > > * > > "Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my > > body's flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what > > may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving". > > By my earnest endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the > > unrivalled freedom from the bond. ..... S: I know this language all wounds like a Big Self taking a lot of action, developing wisdom and striving hard. However, like the entire Tipitaka, it has to be read in the light of anatta, in the light of sankhara dhammas, beyond anyone’s conrol of any kind. This is where I think the Abhidhamma helps a lot to show there are mere dhammas to be understood when the conditions are right, don't you think? Then, the keen right effort is there, developing at the same time already. Please feel very free to disagree with my comments and to add yours. I apologise if I’ve misunderstood your question. You’re doing a great job in leading other threads, such as the one on anapanasati. I like the way you try to include as many people as possible. Metta, Sarah ========= 44841 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Dear Robert K, Thank you for your explanation. You said there was more to come, so I won't ask any questions just yet. So far, you have corrected at least one wrong statement - namely, where I said the excecutioner, Tambadathika, had not broken the first precept. It seems the texts don't say that at all. As to the doctor's ability to avoid akusala kamma by refusing a lawful direction in the course of his employment, I remain sceptical. It sounds like an attempt at control, but I admit I don't really know what I'm talking about. :-) Ken H. PS I notice you have already posted the follow up. Thanks. I will send this now and then have a closer look at what you have written. 44842 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi Nina, Thanks for your encouragement. > We have been discussing knowing characteristics and the present moment on > and on. but here in your post you touch on the essence: knowing when there > is sati and when there isn't. > Very good to discuss and consider this more often. > I have put this post into my favorites file. Related to the above I was also thinking about the sati and panna of the level of pariyatti. I think many do not give this due consideration. Even here there can be sati of sati and a realization that this must be the precursor to satipatthana. Because of not appreciating this, there is then the idea that `theory' must somehow be put aside and instead a conscious effort must be made to be `practical'. I think this is `self' talking, drawing a line between theory and practice not by any understanding, but rather out of ignorance. In fact it is being `theoretical' about the whole thing ;-). What could be more powerful in terms of conditioning sati in the moment than the Buddha's words? Who is to say that this will or not condition satipatthana or even vipassana? The people who deny the efficacy of pariyatti don't realize that they are under the influence of their own internal dialogues conditioned by wrong view. And very often these are the same people who talk at lengths about this and that teacher, teachings, levels of insight, philosophies and so on, with little or no connection to what is being experienced in the moment. Also I was thinking about the connection of all this with the three rounds of saccannana, kiccannana and katannana, but maybe we can talk about this later. Metta, Sukinder. 44843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - Phil. nilovg Hi Phil and Htoo, op 27-04-2005 04:38 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I'd like to try to answer these questions - it really does help me > to develop my understanding. --------------- N: Same, same. -------------------- >> 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its > function? > > There is ekagatta cetasika with every citta - it is one of the > universals. We can say ekagatta's function is to concentrate, but I > think there is another way to put it. I can't recall. I think as for > characteristic or manifestation, there is a simile about ekagatta > helping conascent states to blend together, the way bath salts (?) > blend together in water. ------------------ N: yes, it ocnditions the associated dhammas to focus on the object that appears. Citta and cetasikas share the same object and ekagatta cetasika is the condition that they all focus on that one object. ------------ Ph: >> 2) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the >> jhanacitta? What is its object? > > It's object is the meditation subject. I guess it's function is to > help the other factors hold on to the meditation subject, moment by > moment. (We would tend to think that concentration is something that > is held on to over a period of time, but of course it rises and > falls away moment by moment like any other cetasika, conditioned, > beyond our direct control.) N: I want to thank Htoo for his detailed explanation of jhanacitta. Yes, even when someone is "in jhana", there are many jhanacittas arising and falling away. ------------ Ph: 3) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika arising with the > panna >> (wisdom) of the Eightfold Path which realizes a characteristic of > nama >> or rupa? What is its object at that moment? -------------- N: With this question I wanted to indicate to rather pay attention to the mundane Path, not yet to the lokuttara Path. ------------ Ph: Is this where the object is either anatta, dukkha or annica, > depending on the accumulations of the person? No, I guess not, that > is related to the last javana of a lifetime. So isn't the object > just the nama or rupa that is penetrated by panna, assisted by > ekagata and the other universals and some particulars such as virya > and vitakka? N: The second part of your answer is correct. As to the first part, this is a more developed paññaa, I am always thinking of the first stage first. This does not refer to the last javana of a lifetime. At those moments any object can be the object conditioned by kamma. Ekaggataa cetasika assists paññaa together with the other cetasikas. Paññaa is the leader, the aim is to develop paññaa, to have more understanding of nama and rupa. We should not over- emphasize the role of concentration. ------------ Ph: > 4) Why is mindfulness of breathing one of the most difficult > subjects of meditation? > > I guess one problem is that because the breath is so easy to > control, it can lead to deepening of self-view, when people who > don't have the proper conditions try to exert control through > mindfulness of the breath, perhaps bringing a reassuring sense of > well-being and control over akusala, but at what cost in the long > term? ------------ It seems that one can control. The reason is that the rupa conditioned by citta we call breath is very subtle. Just now, can we say that it appears? We have some idea or concept of breath, but that is not that specific rupa conditioned by citta that appears. Just now, sound, visible object, hardness appear all the time, but not this subtle rupa that is breath. Some people, also before the Buddha's time, had accumulations to develop anapanasati, and for them this subtle rupa appeared. They had to go to a quiet place to cultivate this subject. -------------- Ph: >> 5) What is the difference between samma-sati (right mindfulness) > in samatha and samma-sati in vipassana? What are their respective >> objects of awareness? > In the former, the object is the meditation subject. In the > latter, it is a parammatha dhamma, a nama or rupa seen with panna. I > have learned (not through expereince) that the former will help to > subdue defilements temporarily, but they will arise again when > conditions permit. The latter is more helpful in the long run, > because it can condition the eradication of defilements. I can't remember just how a moment of panna helps to eradicate defilements, > but if it doesn't I want my money back. ---------- N: ;-)) Correct. A moment of paññaa eliminates just a tiny amount of wrong view and ignorance of realities. It is so short, we do not notice this, but gradually it is accomplished. We can notice this when we are in trouble or face sickness and death. There is more understanding, less the inclination to be drowned in the ocean of concepts. I shall write more on this. ---------- Ph: > I am the wrong person to talk about meditation. .... we should not set > limits on the way we expect the path to develop for us. That is > another thing that is beyond our control to do. Conditions > understood with wisdom. --------- N: Thank you Phil for the feed back. Nina. 44844 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, -- Concept vs Reality sukinderpal Hi Tep, Long time no write :-). My comments between yours. > Tep: May I try to answer Sukin's questions? The reasons that > breathing is an ideal meditation subject for everybody (beginners to > experts) are as follows: > > i) Availability. It is there all the time: unlike kasinas and dead bodies, > for example. The comparison you make to kasina and dead body shows that you are thinking in terms of samatha and jhana development. But even here, isn't the whole idea that these become the object of only `developed panna' and not mere conceptual object for any and every body? Besides the choice of object even for developed panna depends I think on temperament and past accumulations. So choosing breath for the above reason, would it be any good? > ii) Its beginning and ending points are clear. You don't have to make > an effort to observe its arising and passing-away phenomena: unlike > phassa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. Any observation of rise and fall of this would be only conceptual. This is not the same as the rise and fall of paramattha dhammas. But we do like to think that we are having some understanding of the Tilakkhana, and this I think is dangerous. What you consider to be `clear beginning and ending points' have in fact involved billions of unobserved rise and fall, many of which are cittas rooted in moha. And often this precipitates in wrong view and further attachment to the practice. > iii) At the end of the first tetrad [MN 118] - when breathing becomes so > subtle as if it is disappearing - you're automatically in the second jhana > with piti, sukha and tranquility (ekaggata citta). There the vedana and > sanna will become clear to the yogi (the nama arises). Above you talked about the difficulty of knowing vedana, sanna, sankhara and so on, how can you then be sure of this, that any level of jhana has been achieved? Jhana is good and I congratulate and would anumodana anyone who achieves it. However isn't it more important to understand reality as it is? And if we do not know the realities in daily life, don't you think we should pause before thinking that we are close to achieving jhana? Happy to see that you are taking a very active part on DSG. :-) Metta, Sukinder 44845 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi larry, > As to the question above, in addition to what Htoo said I would say a > mental discipline, attending to a particular object over and over, > brings up all sorts of attachments that want to resist that discipline. > We are probably not aware of how many latent attachments we are carrying > around and this is a good way to stir them up. Of course attachment > should be experienced with the same nonattachment as the object of > satipatthana. The idea of "mental discipline", how does this relate to the development of satipatthana? Also this seems to refer to the ability to remain on a single `object' instead of allowing the mind to drift to other objects. But how do you determine that this is with panna or even kusala, or in fact that it is not more akusala than when the mind jumps around? Also that which can be `attended to over and over' can only be a concept. One must make an assumption, how can this lead to knowing reality as it is? You say that akusala conditioned by the latent tendencies can be known, but don't you think that these will only be in the form of stories conditioned by the initial story of `using breath as a reference' and every other story centred on `self'? I doubt that this can lead to satipatthana but instead only `thinking' about kusala and akusala and this too, not necessarily with any level of panna. Metta, Sukinder 44846 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Robert, You wrote: -------------------------- > I assume you agree that a sotapanna would never perform an abortion operation? > ------------------------- Sorry, I don't even concede that. In my extremely humble (not to be taken too seriously) opinion, a doctor who is a sotapanna could carry on like a normal doctor. However, he would never kill even if he wanted to (so to speak). He might go ahead with an abortion, but events would preclude murder. E.g., the foetus would coincidentally die before he made any contact with it. And the woman would be saved and everyone would be happy! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ RK: > Yet a sotapanna has no wrong view and profound insight into anatta. So I can't follow why you think a putthujana doctor who has some understanding of kamma/vipaka and anatta should do the operation. ------------------------------------------------------------ Because I don't think conventional stories are reliable indicators of kamma and vipaka. What seems wholesome to one onlooker will seem unwholesome to another. Who is to know? If a Buddhist doctor has to resign on [speculative] matters of principle, there will eventually be no Buddhist doctors. There will be no Buddhist lawyers, accountants, teachers or anything (except monks and unemployed homeless people). The best we can do is learn the Dhamma, and trust in conditions. Ken H 44847 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: jhanas, to Mike. matheesha333 Hi Nina, Mike, Sorry for butting in. I would like to present some ideas for you to consider. N: > If a person dedicates himself to samatha only for a limited time jhana > cannot be attained. He has to drastically change his lifestyle, he should > not enjoying sense objects anymore. Mt: I think the texts can be interpreted in many (but of course limited) ways depending on ones inclination. I would like you to consider a different interpretation. That is that jhana can be attained by householders. They dont have to give up everything in life. But rather there has to be renunciation of sensuality in the mind, when sitting samatha practice is taking place (you might see you dhamma understanding rebelling right about now :) ). Ashubha meditation as preperation helps. N:> Moreover, great pañña and also mindfulness are necessary to know when there > is calm and when there is clinging to the result of the development of > samatha. Mt: You can know calm like you know you are sleepy. I dont think it needs great panna. It is a rested state of awareness, where your mind is not running about (one pointedness=ekaggatha) which naturally leads it to be in the present moment. There can be clinging even to the results of vipassana as is mentioned in the suttas. To completely avoid clinging is a bit unrealistic (im not talking about conditions while meditating here) while we are still in early stages of development. If anyone knows the dhamma well enough it can be known that jhana is not the goal and in the hundreds we have trained clinging has not been a practical problem. Desire towards the goal is one of the main motivators in a beginner. We cannot suddenly pretend to be arahaths in our practice. Progress will take decades and that is simply not necessary. If you see the timescales the buddha himself talks about you will see this is true. N:> In order to abandon some jhanafactors in order to attain higher jhanas, > paññaa has to investigate the jhanafactors and know them very precisely. > This has to be investigated at each stage of jhana, not merely at the fourth > stage. He has to have the masteries, vasiis: entering jhana whenever he > wants, emerging from it whenever he wants, etc. Mt: Yes, all this can be done. Initially the jhanas are weak (as again see training of Ven moggallana), then they become strong enough (with training for mastery) for jhaana factors to be investigated. > M: Understood and agreed--or the great rarity of the conditions for doing > so, as I understand it. Mt: I dont think it is that rare. Householders have successfully trained in jhana. This is simply a myth born in the times when the dhamma was weak even amongst monks and the only recourse was to analyse texts and draw inferences from them, which is fair enough. But now many new methods from the suttas are being tried and being revived. Some of those inferences will have to be coloured by what one sees in practice, after all there is a seperate category as bhavanamaya panna as well. metta Matheesha 44848 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:22am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] htootintnaing Dear Tep and interested members of DSG, Dhamma quiz: session Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - Thank you a whole lot for playing my quiz game with me - just for a little laugh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Laughing men live longer. :)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: So, your selection is c) Tep is just a label. There is no real Tep. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. And there also is no Htoo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: You were right about a) that it was based on the sunnata concept. But there is a Theravada doctrine on emptiness too. Nyanatiloka says the following: (quoted Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind- consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know sunnata. But emptiness is wrongly understood by some. I think this is another subject of discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: The quiz part b) "The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences?" is based on the concept of kamma. In SN XII.46 (Annatra Sutta) a brahman asked the Buddha : "Is the one who acts the same one who experiences [the results of the act]?", and our Great Sage answered : "To say, 'The one who acts is the same one who experiences,' is one extreme." The brahman then asked further, "Then, is the one who acts someone other than the one who experiences?". And, as you may expect, the answer was the same, i.e. it was another extreme ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When 2 extremes are really seen, there will not be any more wrong view. Otherwise one may still hold wrong view. At least a subtle wrong view of eternity or sassata ditthi. Example is 'yesterday Htoo' and 'today Htoo is the same'. In real sense, there is no Htoo at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: I prefer a) and c) over b), but d) just doesn't make sense - plain and simple. Respectfully yours, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: d) is a diluting question. Very good session of Dhamma quiz. If you synthesize further quizs, just compose simple sentences. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Intellectual Understanding, no 2 nilovg Hi Tep, op 27-04-2005 01:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > N: We are usually absorbed in thinking of concepts. I was cutting > vegetables and Lodewijk was playing the piano. I thought of the > melody, was thinking about it (pled plen). But there was also sound, I > could not help it. ... ...< Only one characteristic of either a rupa or a > nama appears at a time, not a concept of a whole, not a story.> > > T: The above example -- thinking about the melody (concept) instead > of the sound (reality) -- simply explains why at that moment there can > be no sati about a characteristic of the sound. It is because your > attention was on the melody - plain and simple! Another example you > gave was on flavor (pannatti) versus taste (a nama); it was a good one. > ----------------------------------- N: It is still a bit different. In between thinking sound appeared, and it could be object of a beginning awareness. Also thinking is real, it can be realized as nama. But so long as the first stage of vipassana has not been reached, it is difficult to penetrate the characteristic of nama. Thinking of concepts, yes, but understanding of thinking can be developed. No lack of realities! ---------- > N: It is most important not to plan anything, because that will always be > done with clinging to an idea of self. .... ----------- > T: I can see that planning anything (mental formations) would result in > losing sati-sampajanna on the realities in the present moment. But I am > not sure how clinging may get involved in any planning activity as long > as it is done offline (i.e. while not contemplating a reality). -------- N: No, even when planning, there is a reality, a dhamma. We can learn when there is clinging. Nothing is excluded, no need to go offline. ---------- T: I heard you > mentioned that lobha might play a trick on us - but I am not sure how it > might happen. > ---------------------------------------- N: More often than we would ever realize. Lobha is so deeply rooted, it is the second noble truth. Ignorance and clinging condition this cycle we are in. Lobha motivates us to try specific things to have more sati, to reach the goal faster. Is it not? ---------- > N: We should go more into the matter: when is there sati, when is there > not. We do not have to think of the four Applications, we do not have to > think of being without attachment. --------------- > T: I see your point that whenever we fail to have sati (on characteristics > of a rupa or a nama) in the present moment, then our Satipatthana > practice is in vain. ------------ N: I would not think in this way. Failing to have sati: no, I see it as sati that arises when there are the right conditions. That is: appreciating pariyatti in the way Sukin suggests. I do not think of failures, that seems like something that has to be induced by *me, me*. I cannot think along the lines of: , for the same reason. ----------- T: However, I think the present moment is too small to accomodate thinking of all four foundations of mindfulness. I can do that kind of thinking only when I am reading or pondering. ------------- N: If we understand that the four foundations of mindfulness are only a means for bringing us back to the present moment (kryang ralek) and to be aware of any nama or rupa that appears, it simplifies things. We do not have to know what application operates now. --------------- > I think the causality knowledge that vedana conditions attachment > (upadana) together with an awareness of the danger of not letting go > are very important for direct knowing (e.g. see MN 149). Don't you think > so? -------- It indicates that by learning to see: eye, visible objects, seeing, feelings etc. leads to liberation. The beginning is understanding nama and rupa now. ----------- > N: When we truly understand intellectually at first that rupa does not > know anything, and that nama is the element that knows, there is the > right foundation. What follows will come because of its own conditions, > and not because of our doing. > > T: I agree with the first sentence, Nina. But the second sentence is not > convincing. I think such understanding is not a panna-bala, so it may > stop at the "rightfoundation" level - you can't fly to the moon on a > helicopter. Can you show by an example how such intellectual > understanding will fly high to the lokuttara level? ------------------ N: See the sutta we just spoke about. It has to begin with the understanding of seeing, visible object, all five khandhas. Pañña cannot be a power in the beginning. It is a long process. ------------- T: To explain why I have been stubborn, let me quote from the > Visuddhimagga as follows: Concentration is for the purpose of correct > knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is for the purpose > of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of greed], > fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the > purpose of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and > vision of deliverance is for the purpose of complete extinction [of > craving, etc.] through not clinging. [Vism. I, 32]. The intellectual > understanding can't even give us the kind of concentration that leads > to dispassion. N: Only paññaa leads to dispassion. By understanding realities as they are you will see that they are *only* nama, *only* rupa, only elements. As to this text, this is more complicated. Samadhi is not developed for its own sake, but it can support pañña to know realities as they are. It can serve as a minister. Concentration to what degree depends on the individual. Not everybody has to cultivate jhana. Besides, when insight grows, also right concentration grows, it is a factor of the eightfold Path. But this is a topic apart. Nina. 44850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge 4 nilovg Hi Mike, op 27-04-2005 01:51 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: N: The Tiika explains that one first knows realities by inference and later > on >> by direct experience. > > Interesting--theory first, then practice...? N: Sukin gave an interesting and very useful explanation about pariyatti leading to the practice. Pariyatti has far more implications than one would think at first. A beginning of freedom from the ocean of concepts! Applying the Buddha's words in contrarious situations. Seeing when we are thinking of events and stories, often upsetting us, and when we realize that thinking is *only* thinking. Nina. 44851 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding nilovg Hi Tep, Sukin, Htoo and all, We have lively discussions these days. I try to combine several posts. op 27-04-2005 01:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: I know that there are some stubborn issues that refuse to go away. --------- N: I understand that when one has learnt specific things one my perhaps be shocked to hear other views that may seem to be so contrary to what one is used to. I appreciate it that Htoo spoke from his heart, saying: just awareness when cooking, swimming, and you cut out everything else. Good to consider this. Then Sukin answered that we have the whole Tipitaka. I did not keep these posts, but I like the dialogue. I like Sukin's recent post about having more appreciation of pariyatti as condition for satipatthana: I am not only thinking of cooking, swimming, no, the contrarieties of daily life is the test for understanding. We all have to face sickness, death or losses in life. How do we apply the Dhamma? I wrote to a friend who is confronted with sickness of a dear person: It is beneficial to have more understanding of thinking as a nama, even in theory. This helps us to apply the Dhamma. We hear: concept is different from reality, from paramattha dhamma, but we have to apply it. We can see the danger of drowning in the ocean of concepts, not knowing any way out, being totally lost. Thinking of situations and events is different from knowing realities one at a time as they appear through the six doors. Seeing the benefit of this can condition sati of satipatthana. (to be continued) Nina. > 44852 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread (338) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) Janaka kamma, upatthambhaka kamma, and upapiilaka kamma have been talked in the previous posts. Still there left the fourth kamma in this group of kamma according to their causative power or regenerative power. This fourth kamma is called upaghataka kamma. This kamma is very powerful unlike other three kamma. Janaka kamma has the power or potential to give rise to its effect. Its weightage is supported by uptthambhaka kamma while upapiilaka kamma diminishes the power of janaka kamma. Unlike upapiilaka kamma, upaghaataka kamma completely abolish the existing kamma. Upaghaataka kamma eradicates all the potentials that exist in janaka kamma in question to the level that no trace of janaka kamma is left. Anyone or any being in any of 31 realms has many many existings or lives in the immesaurable rounds of rebirth cycle or samsara. When matured, being develops to highest level of panna or wisdom and becomes an arahat. As soon as arahatta magga nana arises all the existing 'kamma that may give rise to future rebirths' are totally abolished by arahatta magga nana's power. The cetana that arises along with arahatta magga citta is sahajaata- kamma and that kamma eradicates all the existing 'kamma that may give rise to future rebirths'. That cetana is kamma. But it arises and stays just for a citta-moment or a cittakkhana. But its shade or kamma follows all arising cittas till cuti citta of that arahat. At the end of cuti citta of arahat, samsara-long accumulations are all extinguished instantaneously. This kamma cut up all rebirth-giving kamma and it may be called as upaghaataka kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44853 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:36am Subject: Musings11 - Samaadaana Siila (Resolution or Undertaking of Sila) sarahprocter... (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) Warning: long! *************************** Dear KenH, RobK, Nina, Chris, Azita & All, Sila is an aspect or foundation of all kinds of kusala (wholesome consciousness) – whether it be sila, dana or bhavana. Usually there’s no act of dana or bhavana, so the kusala is simply referred to as ‘siila’, for example when there’s kindness or helpful speech now. As Chris mentioned, we discussed “the difference between "Undertaking" and "Observing" the Precepts. Observing the Precepts was a moment of restraint, of right intention, kusala sila. When the citta is kusala at a moment of abstention from breaking the Precepts, that is when it accumulates, that accumulation is the Training.” Here she is referring to virati(abstaining/restraint) discussed in the last thread. There were also many references to ‘samaadaana siila’, the undertaking or resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. There were questions about following the 8 silas or precepts (abstaining from eating after midday, from wearing ornamentation and sleeping in a high bed in addition to the usual five). It was pointed out that these are not usually household precepts and once more it depends on our intentions for such undertakings, because we are not yet sotapannas. If we just follow any precepts and think that they will bring good results, it’s the same as in other religions when various rules are followed. It has no meaning in such a case. It was stressed that it doesn’t matter on what day or at what time there is the abstaining from unwholesome deeds or speech. The development of kusala now is more important than intending to keep any precepts in future, but feeling badly about doing so, or having frivolous talk, for example, while we attempt to follow them. As Chris mentioned we also discussed the more likely benefit of wisely considering the following 8 precepts which she quoted: >Four types of Right Speech: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." -- SN XLV.8 Three types of Right Action: "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity. This is called right action." -- SN XLV 8 And Right Livelihood: "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood." - - SN XLV.8< ***** If we’re honest, how many kinds of sila do we follow without fail? Do we keep even the five precepts perfectly in all circumstances? If we are merely undertaking any precepts but without any understanding or other kusala cittas, what’s the use? It’s not ‘natural’ behaviour. An example was given of Thai school children who just repeat the undertaking (samaadaana siila) by rote memory. However, even a child may genuinely be determined not to hurt insects or animals or to see the harm in telling lies and to then really follow the good resolutions. Some of us may recall having had such spontaneous wholesome resolutions as children which we followed as a result of being inspired by something we saw or heard, rather than just repeating words or copying actions. It’s therefore not necessary to ask a monk, to tell anyone or to repeat any words. The samadana sila is quite different from merely reciting precepts or observing them when we visit a temple or on a moon day, for example. In the Buddha’s time, lay people didn’t just follow or recite the 5 precepts. There was no ritual involved. Instead they would take refuge in the Triple Gem with understanding which means they would abstain naturally, not following formalities. With the growth of wisdom and confidence in the Triple Gem, we will also inevitably follow this course by ‘sankhara dhammas’, according to conditions. In MN 46, the the Mahaadhammasamaadaana Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl), we read about right and wrong undertaking (samaadaana), rooted in right and wrong view: *** “Bhikkhus, for the most part beings have this wish, desire, and longing: ‘if only unwished for, undesired, disagreeable things would diminish and wished for, desired, agreeable things would increase!’ Yet although beings have this wish, desire, and longing, unwished for, undesired, disagreeable things increase for them and wished for, desired, agreeable things diminish.” We then read about the reasons. The ‘untaught ordinary person’ doesn’t know what should and should not be cultivated, followed and so on. The ‘well-taught noble disciple’ knows of course. It then refers to the four ways of right and wrong undertaking (samaadaana). Firstly the ignorant worldling undertakes what is painful now, such as the various kinds of misconduct with pain and grief and the result is further pain and grief by way of unhappy rebirth. Wrong view is evident. This is like drinking a bitter gourd mixed with poison. The colour, smell and taste are disagreeable and the result is deadly. The second way is like this, except that the undertaking is with pleasure and joy. The result is the same, however. This is like drinking a pleasant beverage mixed with poison. The taste is agreeable, but the result again is deadly. The third way is the abstaining from misconduct but experiencing grief and pain as a result!! However, the abstention is with right view and the results are favourable ones. This is like drinking fermented urine mixed with medicines for jaundice. The colour, taste and semell are disagreeable, but apparently the result is good! The fourth way is the same as this, except that the abstentions are undertaken with joy and pleasure. Again they lead to happy rebirths. This is like taking a mixture of curd, honey, ghee and molasses for dystenery. It tastes good and again results in good health. *** In other words, as I understand the sutta, the right and wrong view involved is very important. We may be inclined to point out the large number of rules or precepts which a bhikkhu must follow from the outset. There is, of course, a big difference in this regard between the bhikkhu’s life and the lay life because of the vinaya. A bhikkhu understands the value of the Patimokkha rules if he observes the vinaya. He has the accumulations to be able to lead such a life. If someone has very bad sila, what is the most useful undertaking or thing to do? It is still to development of the understading of dhammas (realities). We cannot get away from dukkha without the wisdom which sees how there are only passing cittas now at each moment, arising and falling in a split second. The same truths apply even at the moments of death or when we’re fast asleep. Without the development of such wisdom, we remain lost in samsara. Metta, Sarah ====== 44854 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Hi Tep, Sukin, Htoo and all, We have lively discussions these days. I try to combine several posts. op 27-04-2005 01:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: I know that there are some stubborn issues that refuse to go away. --------- N: I understand that when one has learnt specific things one my perhaps be shocked to hear other views that may seem to be so contrary to what one is used to. I appreciate it that Htoo spoke from his heart, saying: just awareness when cooking, swimming, and you cut out everything else. Good to consider this. Then Sukin answered that we have the whole Tipitaka. I did not keep these posts, but I like the dialogue. ... snip ... snip ... Seeing the benefit of this can condition sati of satipatthana. (to be continued) Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Sukin, and All, Thanks Nina for your message. There are many in the jungle. Among our discussion dialogues many points are very useful, I think. But I would say 'I salute The Buddha' 'I give my respect to The Buddha' 'I take The Buddha as my refuge'. I serious take 'The Buddha words'. With respect, Htoo Naing 44855 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:30pm Subject: The Deep Middle ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Profoundly Wise and Moderate Ontology: Buddha once said: Some recluses & priests declare these excessively speculative views: 'Everything Exists'; which is the one extreme (Sarvastavadin Eternalism).. Other recluses & priests declare a just as hypothetical opposite extreme view: 'Everything do Not Exist' (Sunyatavadin Annihilationism).. Avoiding both these extremes the Well-Gone-Beyond Buddha teaches this Dhamma from the Middle: When this is present, that also do exist. When this emerges, that also do arise. When this is absent, that neither exists. When this ceases, that also vanishes. From ignorance arises mental construction. From mental construction arises consciousness. From consciousness arises naming-&-forming. From name-&-form arises the six senses. From the six senses arises contact. From contact arises feeling. From feeling arises craving. From craving arises clinging. From clinging arises becoming. From becoming arises birth. From birth arises ageing, decay, sickness & death. From ageing, decay & death arises Suffering! This is the origin of this entire mass of Pain... When ignorance ceases, mental construction stops. When mental construction ceases, consciousness stops. When consciousness ceases, naming-&-forming stops. When name-&-form ceases, the six senses stops. When the six senses ceases, contact stops. When contact ceases, feeling stops. When feeling ceases, craving stops. When craving ceases, clinging stops. When clinging ceases, becoming stops. When becoming ceases, birth stops. When birth ceases, ageing, decay, sickness & death stops... When ageing, decay, sickness & death ceases, Suffering stops! This is the Disappearance of this entire mass of Misery & Pain... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dig it! IMHO It doesn't come much Deeper than that ... The doors to the Deathless, thereby become Wide Open ... Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44856 From: "AlanLam" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:44pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too pubbarama Dear Sukinder, Bravo, I concur. Just sit and meditate daily without missing one day, based on Satipathana Sutta, wisdom does arise. And, I read in the web Forum that there are quite many academic dharma teachers does suffers in life due to their own analysis and sole opinion of the dharma they preach, but they do not meditate and practise. Is this the Karma effect ??? Is it true ???? I have yet to come across these academic professors. Metta karuna and may they all be well and happy. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: <...> > Sukinder: > I think you will agree that the only practice `leading to nibbana' is > satipatthana and its development, leading to vipassana. Other kinds of > kusala are indeed beneficial, the best of which is jhana. The Buddha > encouraged all levels of kusala including dana, sila and samatha > bhavana. But the important thing is that he also taught that all these are > anatta, anicca and dukkha, that they are conditioned and beyond the > control of this illusory `self'. To come to understand this, satipatthana is > the only way. And when is the best time for this if not now? <....> 44857 From: "AlanLam" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: jhanas, to Mike. pubbarama Dear Matheesha, I too concur with you 100% all you have said below. If one were to; 1) Hold firmly the 5 precepts. 2) Able to master the Metta Karuna. 3) Meditate consistantly (breath or tummy up/down)for a period without missing one day's hard work, then; One could easily have transquility and contemplate the Vedhana, the Citta or the Sankharakhandas as it arises and ceased. Jhanas just comes by as a by product, do not grasp but note and be mindful of it. Soon one will stay in Upheka to it and in all pehonmenon. Plus the daily mindfullness of the 8 fold path for right speech, thoughts etc. One will reach the goal as a hard days' work is a day nearer to the goal. Best is to change places of meditation regularly, in seculded place or in the night in a quiet place as one has to overcome phenomenon. I once overcoming Fear with utmost Metta Karuna, willing to secrify one's life to the object of fear. On another occasion, in a secluded place meditating, I also overcome phenomenal fear that lead to better understanding Anatta. Who is at fear, if there's no self, ego or soul ??? Then, who see, hear, smell, taste, feel and think ???? It is thus void and empty. Metta karuna. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > <...> > Mt: I think the texts can be interpreted in many (but of course > limited) ways depending on ones inclination. I would like you to > consider a different interpretation. That is that jhana can be > attained by householders. They dont have to give up everything in > life. But rather there has to be renunciation of sensuality in the > mind, when sitting samatha practice is taking place (you might see > you dhamma understanding rebelling right about now :) ). Ashubha > meditation as preperation helps. > > N:> Moreover, great pañña and also mindfulness are necessary to know > when there > > is calm and when there is clinging to the result of the > development of > > samatha. > > Mt: You can know calm like you know you are sleepy. I dont think it > needs great panna. It is a rested state of awareness, where your > mind is not running about (one pointedness=ekaggatha) which > naturally leads it to be in the present moment. There can be > clinging even to the results of vipassana as is mentioned in the > suttas. To completely avoid clinging is a bit unrealistic (im not > talking about conditions while meditating here) while we are still > in early stages of development. If anyone knows the dhamma well > enough it can be known that jhana is not the goal and in the > hundreds we have trained clinging has not been a practical problem. > Desire towards the goal is one of the main motivators in a beginner. > We cannot suddenly pretend to be arahaths in our practice. Progress > will take decades and that is simply not necessary. If you see the > timescales the buddha himself talks about you will see this is true. <...> 44858 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:06am Subject: Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata foamflowers On Tuesday, April 26, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Philip wrote: [Phil] Hi Lisa [Phil]Thanks for describing your meditation. You write with such confidence and enthusiasm. I can get an idea of how the benefits you gain from meditation have a great influence on the people in your life. [Phil] Since I am not now a meditator and have never studied with a meditation teacher, please feel free to disregard my comments. And perhaps if you can encourage me about the benefits of meditation, it will help condition a return to the meditation mat for me! :) [Lisa] I used the breath to help me focus because it is always there and I can control it as I wish. [Lisa]I can make breath soft, hard, and hold it while swimming under water, that is the control I'm talking about, I'm not talking about the subtle level of sensation, which is there all the time coming and going and does not wait or run from anything. The reason breath is a very good object of meditation for me is an easy focus and this ability to control it on a surface level and then there is the most subtle of vibrations that is very hard to find. [Lisa] Breath seems to go away during meditation but it is still there it is so subtle I have trouble finding it. I have to be very still to see it when lets say the lights come or the meditation expands where there is nothing I can find to hook my focus on not even breath. So when that happens it's time for me not to focus on object not even breath I am not strong enough to find the more subtle sensations so I just focus being there at that subtle level without attaching to the moment with craving or aversion. I don't have the Abhidhamma name for it yet. But I am putting a list together of words I need to know. [Phil] Isn't the point of the Buddha's teaching to move beyond controlling things, to understand anatta? Is this a technique that you use now in anticipation of letting it go when it is no longer necessary? I mean, I can't imagine sotapannas go through daily life using the breath as a mindfulness device in the way you describe. Should we develop practices that the enlightened ones (sotapannas and beyond) would not engage in? I am talking about the daily life pratices you describe, not your meditation. [Lisa]plus it can tell me what is happening within the mind/body before my brain can process data. [Lisa]Sensation of breath comes up before mind can hook anything onto it for me it is my way of knowing without thought or concept. Oh by the way in the beginning I did have to control certain things on a surface level...lol and I still do, I like to talk and eat to much, until I could let them go, like my anger and fear or I would not be here talking to you, I would of ran away long ago. On the most subtle levels where things come and go quicker than a blink of an eye I do not control but I can control my fist from connecting with someones face. I had a very bad temper and I liked to throw things, shoes were my favorite things to throw! [Phil] Can't we develop insight directly into what is rising and falling in the mind, body without relying on the breath to tell us? I know the former is a difficult task but if we approach it with patience won't it lead us more deeply towards detachment from what is happening within the mind/body? Those are kind of rhetorical questions, I know. And I am nowhere close to directly understanding realities - it is all still intellectual for me - so I am not one to talk. [Lisa]The sensation of breath around nostril and upper lip is very fine and to just watch that for even a second grounds me to the Moment. For you Phil the object of meditation may be different. For me there is no effort to control with breath it is as it is just sensation. What is the difference between experience and knowledge on a sensual level? There is empirical knowledge through putting sense data into categories, which is logic (my limited understanding) and using reason to put together these categories in an agreeable picture that matches habits, memory and imagination, but is that reality? Understanding that reality is beyond logic and reason for me it is important and so I use bare sensation to keep me grounding in this understanding that I don't know in a logical or reasonable way. Critical thinking is very important to, I guess skill in means is putting these together so they work well as I cross the street. [Lisa]It is directly linked to the unconscious. It moves differently when I am angry, happy,frustrated, content and so on from my understanding there is a huge store house of past experiences far removed from our conscious level of knowing breath and sensation can be a portal or bridge to this so one can go and clean out all that stuff, I am sure there is an Abhidhamma name for this store house as well. Something else to look up! [Phil] This is interesting. I can see how the breathing mindfulness you do could help you to be emotionally healthy - I can see that. And emotional health is important for ourselves and the people around us. But wouldn't it be better to patiently develop direct understanding of anger, aversion, bliss etc - they are realities whose chracteristics can be experienced - without going throught the breath as bridge? If we are seeking true liberation, shouldn't we be able to experience and see through whatever comes our way, no matter how unpleasnt or unwholesome, see thorugh it and now it for what it is (impermanent, suffering and anatta) without fending it off by intentional, unnatural techniques. [Lisa]During my first ten day retreat the pain and visions plus bliss were overwhelming to me but I didn't want to let my teachers down by getting up and running away. When stuff would come up like pain or the vision of lights and I felt overwhelmed I would go back to breath instead of scanning for sensations. I found that alternating scanning and sensation took me to very subtle levels of sensation. With breath it is like a door or bridge to areas of myself I did not know before an access. Same with taste, hearing, skin sensation, and smells. I used them as bridges to explore parts of me that were hidden until I learned to find subtle sounds that are actually subtle vibrations, same with smell and taste, skin sensations and the things that come and go in the mind like the lights. I focused on those intently and watched the center of them and went to the most amazing places...hahaha thank goodness for equanimity. [Lisa] Side effect from all this work is physical and mental well being because I have a clearer picture of what I need to do to take care of myself. But that is not my goal it just happened naturally but there was an awful lot of effort involved and still is. It is hard work to stay healthy and equanimious. [Phil] I think of that beautiful sutta about the lotus growing in the muck. All the pleasant and unpleasant sensations, feelings etc that we go through are material for the development of understanding. I know that you say you return to the breath without aversion, so you are not being knee-jerk about it, but still.... [Lisa]Understanding on the level of sensation without hooking concept and reaction to them for me anyway is not related to empirical knowing and I don't have the right metaphysical words which, for me isn't useful and I can't go with you here. I think you need to sit down and watch breath and sensation at a retreat with a good teacher to really understand on a level where words don't go anymore. [phil] Just some thoughts from someone who doesn't meditate formally but is interested in hearing about the way people do it. And obviously your practice is well established and bringing you benefits so you can easily disregard my comments. (As you say "you gotta be there to know") Thanks, and keep coming with your energizing posts! Metta, Phil [Lisa]Phil I truly enjoy our exchange you make me reach out and try to explain what I thought I know and really I know nothing, but this is a blast, I really like working with you. Thank you so much! With Metta, Lisa 44859 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:59am Subject: Biological Beings, The Buddha and Cittas in a day htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The first consciousness comes as soon as we wake up. Depending on our habit, some can arise immediately from bed and start the day right away. Some go for a plan for the day while still in bed. And after a few minute when they finish their planning they arise from their bed and start the day. Some go wandering in thinking and some chase their dreams and some even fall sleep again for another dose. But finally they also have to arise from their bed and start the day. Some people are so busy that if the day is weekend day or holiday, they lie longer in bed and they will not arise for a long time and they will be going here and there by mind-travelling. Whoever does what, the day is already started as the first consciousness comes. This happens daily and the whole day ends up with drowsiness and falling asleep. This is normal for all sorts of human beings. This is because human beings are living in this world depending on their biological body. The Buddha Himself was living on biological body till He did parinibbana. As The Buddha was also a biological being, His body has to follow the rules of biology and genetics. The whole day ends up with last moment of manodvara vithi javana citta and sleeping starts with bhavanga cittas. In between are all a mixture of vithi cittas and bhavanga cittas. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44860 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:25pm Subject: Hi Sarah, all lone_renunciant Hello. I am writing this message to inform you all that I don't think this being a regular member of this discussion group is 'me.' At least for the present, I will not be checking here as the threads I start do not yield the good results I was expecting when I began them. Certainly it is due to some differences of view between myself and members on the list, some to my unfamiliarity with and lack of proficiency in the texts, and to some extent my inclination to be more of a dry poster than to have my questions and responses based on or affected by things I see or encounter in day to day reality. I will attempt to finish up some old threads, especially the ones with Sarah, and see how it goes from there. I don't think I'll be abandoning this group completely, but I don't think it will be my home away from home either. Regards, A.L. 44861 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:00pm Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding buddhatrue Hi Nina, Nina: It helped me a lot to have Dhamma talks with Lodewijk about the ocean of concepts we drown in and about the Brahmaviharas, especially equanimity. It helps me to remember that kamma produces vipaaka, that we are heirs to kamma. Whatever gain or loss happens to us is conditioned by kamma. James: I agree so much with this, especially about the equanimity and kamma. Let me tell you a story: tonight I was walking home from the grocery store and I found a little kitten crying and mewing from the hood of a car. I know, it was a strange place to be, and I wondered how it got there. I thought that maybe it was left by its mother. I went over and petted the kitten and examined it a bit and saw that it was very dirty and had mucus coming from its nose and eyes; it hissed at me some while I petted it. I left it where it was and hoped the mother would be coming to get it soon. There are several cats who live on the streets here in Cairo (they eat the garbage from open bins). After going out with a friend, I came back home and it was dark. I decided to see if the kitten was still there or not (big mistake). The kitten wasn't on the hood of the car anymore but, following the sound of its mewing, I could see it underneath another car, by the tire, across the street. It was obvious to me that its mother wasn't coming for it. After much heart-wrenching pondering and decision making, I decided to leave it right where it was- even though I knew it will probably die. It was too sick and young for me to help it, and I have a cat already, so I couldn't really do anything. When I was walking up the many flights of steps to my apartment I was feeling lousy. I am a real animal lover and I hate to see any animals hurt or needlessly die. Even before this I was telling my friend how Australia is going to be culling the wild camel population by shooting them from helicopters. It is supposed to be a real blood bath and it just really bothers me to consider it (my friend told me they should just ship them to Egypt ;-). Anyway, so here I am, going up my stairs, feeling so horrible I can hardly stand it, and I suddenly wonder what the Buddha would do in this situation. Then it hits me: He would look at the situation with equanimity! He would know that it was that kitten's kamma to be where it is, and those camels's kamma to be where they are, and that he would see the situation with equanimity. That realization helped me a lot! Hope that you and Lodewijk find peace together in the face of your difficulties. I'm sending you good thoughts. Metta, James 44862 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Hi Sukinder, Here are your questions and my answers. S: "The idea of "mental discipline", how does this relate to the development of satipatthana? L: Sila. S: "Also this seems to refer to the ability to remain on a single `object´ instead of allowing the mind to drift to other objects. But how do you determine that this is with panna or even kusala, or in fact that it is not more akusala than when the mind jumps around?" L: By looking. S: "Also that which can be `attended to over and over´ can only be a concept. One must make an assumption, how can this lead to knowing reality as it is?" L: The objects of satipatthana, e.g. breath, are not concepts. Attend to the breath over and over. S: "You say that akusala conditioned by the latent tendencies can be known, but don´t you think that these will only be in the form of stories conditioned by the initial story of `using breath as a reference´ and every other story centred on `self´?" L: I don't quite follow your question, but I would say desire can be known and it is a reality. S: "I doubt that this can lead to satipatthana but instead only `thinking´ about kusala and akusala and this too, not necessarily with any level of panna." L: If you really don't want to do this you could recognize and experience that aversion as aversion. Larry 44863 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) lbidd2 Hi Phil, How do you know you don't know? It's impossible. Phil: "I don't yet understand what it means to understand a reality directly without thinking about it." L: Before you think there has to be something to think about. That's it. There's no thinking without reality. It's all over the place. There might be a mythological assumption about the specialness of reality, a desire for it to be more than it is. A touch of coldness, the blue of the sky, a good feeling, love, recognizing a friend. Each one of these is the whole of reality. That's all there is. Larry 44864 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > -------------------------- > > I assume you agree that a sotapanna would never perform an > abortion operation? > > ------------------------- > > Sorry, I don't even concede that. In my extremely humble (not to be > taken too seriously) opinion, a doctor who is a sotapanna could > carry on like a normal doctor. However, he would never kill even if > he wanted to (so to speak). He might go ahead with an abortion, but > events would preclude murder. E.g., the foetus would coincidentally > die before he made any contact with it. And the woman would be saved > and everyone would be happy! :-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ken, I see. Ok let me try this one. Take a pest exterminator who sprays insects to (speculatively) kill them. Could a sotapanna do that job. Or could a sotapanna be the man who kills the cattle at a abatoir? Robertk 44865 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:53pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, -- Concept vs Reality buddhistmedi... [A reply to message #44844 ] Hi Sukinder - You asked many questions because of doubts or disbelief in the anapanasati specifically. I have prepared a summary of three very good readings on breathing meditation, and it is given below. This summary should educate you the necessary basic ideas that may help reduce your doubts.To actually reduce all your doubts there is no other way but practicing it yourself. (1) Why is breathing meditation very useful and recommended by the Buddha? [Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13: Ananda Sutta] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion. (2) How is breathing mediation practiced and what does it bring? (Just only the first and second tetrad) [Meditation-expert Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani] "(I) When the beginning, middle, and end of the out-breaths and in- breaths have been clearly perceived, if the rough and coarse breaths do not become automatically calmed and allayed to the point of disappearance, then, in accordance with the text of the fourth section of the first tetrad of the sutta, where it is said, "As he exhales, he tries to allay and calm down the out-breath: as he inhales, he tries to allay and calm down the in-breath," a special additional endeavour must be made to make them gentler and gentler, and this must be pursued with resolution, not left unmindfully to take its own course. "In the method given in the Commentary, however, it is stated that the out-breaths and in-breaths become calmed down and allayed of their own accord even from the stage of counting, and in my own experience, I have come across persons whose breaths have automatically disappeared. "(II) I shall now show the second tetrad of the sutta which is to be attempted or practised in the fixing stage, the stage of the full absorption or jhana. The text states: 1. ' Experiencing rapture, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 2. Experiencing happiness, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 3. Experiencing the mental functions, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 4. Allaying and calming down the mental functions, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself '. "1. What is meant by experiencing rapture (piti-patisamvedi) is putting forth effort, when the counterpart sign appears, until the first and second jhanas are attained, in which rapture (piti) predominates. 2. What is meant by experiencing happiness (sukha-patisamvedi) is putting forth effort until the third jhana is attained, in which happiness (sukha) predominates. 3. What is meant by experiencing the mental functions (cittasankharam patisamvedi) is putting forth effort until the fourth jhana is attained, in which the mental function (cittasankhara) of equanimous feeling (upekkha vedana) predominates. 4. What is meant by allaying and calming down the mental functions (passambhayam cittasankhara) putting forth effort to allay and calm down the coarse feelings (vedana) and perceptions. "The Commentary associates this tetrad with full absorption in jhana, but the experience of rapture, joy, and calm is also associated with the access to jhana (upacara-jhana), attained after the first appearance of the counterpart sign. "This ends the second tetrad. [endquote] (3) Why did the Buddha recommend it? Why is it for realization of the present moment? The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi Chapter VI RIGHT MINDFULNESS (Samma Sati) "By itself mindfulness of breathing can lead to all the stages of the path culminating in full awakening. In fact it was this meditation subject that the Buddha used on the night of his own enlightenment. He also reverted to it throughout the years during his solitary retreats, and constantly recommended it to the monks, praising it as "peaceful and sublime, an unadulterated blissful abiding, which banishes at once and stills evil unwholesome thoughts as soon as they arise" (MN 118). "Mindfulness of breathing can function so effectively as a subject of meditation because it works with a process that is always available to us, the process of respiration. What it does to turn this process into a basis for meditation is simply to bring it into the range of awareness by making the breath an object of observation. The meditation requires no special intellectual sophistication, only awareness of the breath. "One merely breathes naturally through the nostrils keeping the breath in mind at the contact point around the nostrils or upper lip, where the sensation of breath can be felt as the air moves in and out. There should be no attempt to control the breath or to force it into predetermined rhythms, only a mindful contemplation of the natural process of breathing in and out. The awareness of breath cuts through the complexities of discursive thinking, rescues us from pointless wandering in the labyrinth of vain imaginings, and grounds us solidly in the present. For whenever we become aware of breathing, really aware of it, we can be aware of it only in the present, never in the past or the future. [endquote] (4) More considerations on breath meditation. How does it develop awareness and concentration? A famous meditation monk, Ajahn Chah, talked about the jhana factors that resulted from the breath meditation as follows: "Normally the mind isn't still, it's moving all the time, it lacks strength. Making the mind strong and making the body strong are not the same. To make the body strong we have to exercise it, to push it, in order to make it strong, but to make the mind strong means to make it peaceful, not to go thinking of this and that. For most of us the mind has never been peaceful, it has never had the energy of samadhi, so we establish it within a boundary. We sit in meditation, staying with the One who knows. "If we force our breath to be too long or too short we're not balanced, the mind won't become peaceful. It's like when we first start to use a pedal sewing machine. At first we just practice pedaling the machine to get our co-ordination right, before we actually sew anything. Following the breath is similar. We don't get concerned over how long or short, weak or strong it is, we just note it. We simply let it be, following the natural breathing. "When it's balanced, we take the breathing as our meditation object. When we breathe in, the beginning of the breath is at the nose tip, the middle of the breath at the chest and the end of the breath at the abdomen. This is the path of the breath. When we breathe out, the beginning of the breath is at the abdomen, the middle at the chest and the end at the nose tip. We simply take note of this path of the breath at the nose tip, the chest and the abdomen, then at the abdomen, the chest and the tip of the nose. We take note of these three points in order to make the mind firm, to limit mental activity so that mindfulness and self-awareness can easily arise. "When we are adept at noting these three points we can let them go and note the in and out breathing, concentrating solely at the nose-tip or the upper lip where the air passes on its in and out passage. We don't have to follow the breath, just establish mindfulness in front of us at the nose-tip, and note the breath at this one point -- entering, leaving, entering, leaving. There's no need to think of anything special, just concentrate on this simple task for now, having continuous presence of mind. There's nothing more to do, just breathing in and out. Soon the mind becomes peaceful, the breath refined. The mind and body become light. This is the right state for the work of meditation. "When sitting in meditation the mind becomes refined, but whatever state it's in we should try to be aware of it, to know it. Mental activity is there together with tranquillity. There is vitakka. Vitakka is the action of bringing the mind to the theme of contemplation. If there is not much mindfulness, there will be not much vitakka. Then vicara, the contemplation around that theme, follows. Various "weak " mental impressions may arise from time to time but our self-awareness is the important thing -- whatever may be happening we know it continuously. As we go deeper we are constantly aware of the state of our meditation, knowing whether or not the mind is firmly established. Thus, both concentration and awareness are present. "To have a peaceful mind does not mean that there's nothing happening, mental impressions do arise. For instance, when we talk about the first level of absorption, we say it has five factors. Along with vitakka and vicara, piti (rapture) arises with the theme of contemplation and then sukha (happiness). These four things all lie together in the mind established in tranquillity. They are as one state". [endquote] A Talk by Ajahn Chah http://www.dhamma.com/eng/lpch/taste2.html Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > The comparison you make to kasina and dead body shows that you are > thinking in terms of samatha and jhana development. But even here, > isn't the whole idea that these become the object of only `developed > panna' and not mere conceptual object for any and every body? Besides the choice of object even for developed panna depends I think on temperament and past accumulations. So choosing breath for the above reason, would it be any good? > > Any observation of rise and fall of this would be only conceptual. This is not the same as the rise and fall of paramattha dhammas. But we do > like to think that we are having some understanding of the Tilakkhana, and this I think is dangerous. What you consider to be `clear beginning and ending points' have in fact involved billions of unobserved rise and fall, many of which are cittas rooted in moha. And often this precipitates in wrong view and further attachment to the practice. > > Above you talked about the difficulty of knowing vedana, sanna, > sankhara and so on, how can you then be sure of this, that any level of jhana has been achieved? > > Jhana is good and I congratulate and would anumodana anyone who achieves it. However isn't it more important to understand reality as it is? And if we do not know the realities in daily life, don't you think we should pause before thinking that we are close to achieving jhana? > > Metta, > Sukinder 44866 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Dear Robert K, Thanks for not giving up on me. I'm sorry, but there is more exasperating stubbornness to follow: ------------------- RK: > I see. Ok let me try this one. Take a pest exterminator who sprays insects to (speculatively) kill them. Could a sotapanna do that job. Or could a sotapanna be the man who kills the cattle at a abatoir? ------------------- By definition, a sotapanna cannot kill. That is, the five khandhas conventionally known as 'a sotapanna' cannot include akusala cetana at the level of kamma-patha. The conditions for that kind of cetana have been permanently destroyed. But is there a definition by which a sotapanna cannot be the man whose job it is to exterminate insects or slaughter cattle? No, or at least, not that I know of. So, off the top of my head, I would say a sotapanna could turn up for work (at any job) and go through all the motions, but there will be no intention to kill, or there will be no being to be killed, or there would be no resultant death (or any combination of those three). That sounds far-fetched, but I don't see any paramattha reasons why it shouldn't be the case. Ken H 44867 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Intellectual Understanding, no 2 buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Sukinder - Intellectual understanding is necessary at the beginning when we study the Dhamma (pariyatti). However, it is a mistake to believe that intellectual understanding alone is strong enough as the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of realities: it is concentration (samadhi) that is the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of realities. I have at least three evidences from the suttas plus some advice from Bhikkhu Bodhi's book to prove my point. Please read the following excerpts with an open mind. (I) Concentration supports discernment (panna). "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." SN XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta. (II) A samatha-vipassana meditation: here is how meditation on the foulness of the body and breathing meditation- the 1st tetrad - with aniccanupassana lead to clear knowing. "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Remain focused, monks, on the foulness of the body. Have mindfulness of in-&-out breathing well established to the fore within you. Remain focused on the inconstancy of all fabrications. For one who remains focused on the foulness of the body, the obsession with passion for the property of beauty is abandoned. For one who has mindfulness of in-&-out breathing well established to the fore within oneself, annoying external thoughts & inclinations don't exist. For one who remains focused on the inconstancy of all fabrications, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises." {Iti III.36; Iti 80} ------------- (III) A concentration of the 1st jhana level is powerful enough as the supporting condition for knowledge and visions of realities. Two suttas: Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption, AN IX.36 and MN 64, Mahamalunkhyaputta Sutta. (1) Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption, AN IX.36 "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, a void, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then -- through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma- delight, and from the total wasting away of the five lower fetters [self- identity views, grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and irritation] -- he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. (2) MN 64, Mahamalunkhyaputta Sutta "Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. "Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: "This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations( sankhara khandha), the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment(viraga), cessation and extinction (nibbana). "With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. " ------------------------------- (IV) Bhikkhu Bodhi believes that "deep concentration" is the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of things. "In order to develop the knowledge and vision of things as they really are with respect to the aggregates, the yogin must first emerge from his state of deep concentration, for the analytical faculty -- silenced in the folds of serenity -- has to be brought into play to effect the required dissection. With his mind made clear and pliant as a result of concentration, the yogin attends to the diverse phenomena coming into range of his awareness. The phenomena are attended to as they become manifest to determine their salient characteristics; then, on this basis, they are assigned to their appropriate place among the aggregates. Whatever is physical belongs to the aggregate of material form; whatever registers affective tone is feeling; whatever notices the object's marks is perception; whatever wills is a mental formation; and whatever cognizes is consciousness". From "Transcendental Dependent Arising" A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta" by Bhikkhu Bodhi The Wheel Publication No. 277/278 SL ISSN 0049-7541 --------------------------------- (V) In the Upanisa Sutta SNXII.23 it is clearly stated that concentration is the supporting for "knowledge and vision of things". One kind of concentration that is suitable as the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of things is conditioned by joy, rapture, tranquillity and happiness: i.e. the 1st jhana factors. Hopefully this post may not cause acute eye-strain to Nina. If it did then please accept my apology. Respectfully yours, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 27-04-2005 01:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: (snipped) > > T: To explain why I have been stubborn, let me quote from the > > Visuddhimagga as follows: Concentration is for the purpose of correct > > knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is for the purpose > > of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of greed], > > fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the > > purpose of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and > > vision of deliverance is for the purpose of complete extinction [of > > craving, etc.] through not clinging. [Vism. I, 32]. The intellectual > > understanding can't even give us the kind of concentration that leads > > to dispassion. > N: Only paññaa leads to dispassion. By understanding realities as they are > you will see that they are *only* nama, *only* rupa, only elements. > As to this text, this is more complicated. Samadhi is not developed for its > own sake, but it can support pañña to know realities as they are. It can > serve as a minister. Concentration to what degree depends on the individual. > Not everybody has to cultivate jhana. Besides, when insight grows, also > right concentration grows, it is a factor of the eightfold Path. But this is > a topic apart. > Nina. 44868 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:19pm Subject: Vism.XIV,156 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 156. So these are the thirty-six formations that should be understood to come into association with the first profitable consciousness of the sense sphere (1). And as with the first, so with the second (2), the only difference here being promptedness. (3)-(4) Those associated with the third (3) should be understood as all the foregoing except non-delusion (xv). Likewise with the fourth (4), the only difference here being promptedness. (5)-(6) All those stated in the first instance, except happiness (v), come into association with the fifth (5). Likewise with the sixth (6), the only difference here being promptedness. (7)-(8) [Those associated] with the seventh (7) should be understood as [the last] except non-delusion (xv). Likewise with the eighth (8), the only difference here being promptedness. 44869 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > By definition, a sotapanna cannot kill. That is, the five khandhas > conventionally known as 'a sotapanna' cannot include akusala cetana > at the level of kamma-patha. The conditions for that kind of cetana > have been permanently destroyed. But is there a definition by which > a sotapanna cannot be the man whose job it is to exterminate insects > or slaughter cattle? No, or at least, not that I know of. > > So, off the top of my head, I would say a sotapanna could turn up > for work (at any job) and go through all the motions, but there will > be no intention to kill, or there will be no being to be killed, or > there would be no resultant death (or any combination of those > three). That sounds far-fetched, but I don't see any paramattha > reasons why it shouldn't be the case. Dear Ken, Thanks for taking the time to answer my little questions. I think it was important to ask them so that we can be sure of where our difference of opinion lies. Sarah, if you are reading this thread could you say whether you agree with Ken's statement.. as we also difffer on this matter. Robertk 44870 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:50pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter sarahprocter... Hi Rob K (& Ken H), Thanks for asking for my further comment here. --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear Ken, > Thanks for taking the time to answer my little questions. I think it > was important to ask them so that we can be sure of where our > difference of opinion lies. Sarah, if you are reading this thread > could you say whether you agree with Ken's statement.. as we also > difffer on this matter. .... S: As I've been indicating all along, it's the intention to kill that counts. If there is no intention, there is no killing. Let me make this reply a little more personal to avoid any confusion. I haven't intentionally killed even an insect, as I recall, since I was a child. At school I had to drop biology because I wouldn't follow some of the experiments which involved live dissecting of worms etc,(even though I had wanted to be a doctor til then). So to clarify, I personally would not (even if I were trained/employed to do so) perform an abortion because I would expect to either have to be intentionally killing the foetus or deliberately failing the operation which would bring up other ethical concerns such as deceit. In the same way I would not spray insecticide, bomb, slaughter animals or anything else with the intention of killing or encourage anyone else with such intentions in anyway. As Howard and Nina have indicated, sometimes we have to go to quite some trouble and expense to find solutions to simple everyday problems. One reason we live in a small, clean high-rise flat here and hardly eat anything at home these days is because of the cockroaches and other insects which just love this hot, humid climate and soon find the tiniest crumbs. We all agree that a sotapanna would not intend to kill under any circumstances -- even those circumstances which may be quite unimaginable to us, such as when family members are at risk. So in brief, no, I can't see a sotapanna agreeing to perform an abortion, slaughtering in an abattoir and defininitely not intentionally using the pesticide to kill insects. As for Ken's comments about Buddhist doctors and so on, I'm sure in Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, there would never be any requirement to perform such operations (and far less demand too). And yes, with more confidence in the teachings, there would be less killing and so on. And if we were all arahants, none of us could be living the worldly lay life at all, but there has always been greed, hatred and delusion and there always will be. However, in general, I think KenH has been making some very good points which I agree with -- especially about how we tend to judge the situation or the conventional story about various acts when we have no idea about the intentions involved. We think of long, long stories about good and bad and forget entirely about the momentary cittas we've studied so much. This was the point of the original thread with the account of the hunter's wife and other examples. I might clear up the mess or comfort the lady in the operating theatre or clean up the abattoir or use the spray without any intention to harm. Who knows about other grey areas? I couldn't say whether I'd pass the instruments at the time, pilot the plane or even press the bomb switch, but I'm confident that I wouldn't be intending to kill or wishing someone else to do so in anyway. The same with the alcohol examples. I haven't intentionally taken any intoxicants for 30 years (after seeing the effect on my father who became alcoholic) and would never encourage anyone to drink even a little. So, I'm confident that if I purchased or sold or poured any alcohol, it would not be for this purpose. And I'm mostly certainly not a sotapanna. I have no idea about what pickles I may be in or come across in lives to come!! The point is, I think, that appearances often aren't what they seem and we can only know our own intentions at any given time when they arise. With more and more growth in wisdom and confidence, I think there are fewer and fewer dilemmas in life, fewer and fewer 'hypothetical situations' and we are less concerned about what others may think about our actions as they see them. I hope this helps and appreciate both your comments on this thread. Please let me know if there's anything further. Metta, Sarah ======= 44871 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I agree so much with this, especially about the equanimity and > kamma. <...> > Then it hits me: > He would look at the situation with equanimity! He would know that it > was that kitten's kamma to be where it is, and those camels's kamma to > be where they are, and that he would see the situation with > equanimity. That realization helped me a lot! ... S: A beautiful story well told. Thank you. And, yes, we forget about kamma so easily. When we were walking amongst the beggars in India, I also found it helped a lot to reflect on kamma and to develop a little metta, compassion and especially equanimity right then and there. Your actions when you walked away from the kitten or ours as we walked away from the beggars might seem heartless or even cruel, but if there is just a little understanding or equanimity just then and there as you described and reminded us so well, then there is nothing cold or heartless about it. Again, we can't judge from the appearance of such acts. Metta and thanks, Sarah ======= 44872 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:01pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 179- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== The Buddha knew the accumulations of beings and thus whenever he preached to someone he could remind him in the way which was most suitable for him. He often reminded people of the foulness of “this short-lived body”, in order to stir them to develop satipaììhåna. The Thera Kimbila (Thera-gåthå 118) was stirred when the Buddha, by his supernatural power, conjured up the image of a beautiful woman and showed her passing to old age. The Commentary relates that he was greatly shaken by this image. He spoke this verse: * As bidden by some power age over her falls. Her shape is as another, yet the same. Now this myself, who never has left myself, Seems other than the self I recollect. * Kimbila realized that what he took for self are ever-changing phenomena. Although what we call in conventional terms the “present personality” has developed from the “past personality”, there isn’t any reality which is self. The phenomena of the present moment fall away immediately as soon as they have arisen and are completely gone. The commentary relates that Kimbila, while he considered the truth of impermanence, was yet more strongly agitated. He listened to the Buddha, became a monk and attained arahatship. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44873 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:54pm Subject: Re: Musings11 - Samaadaana Siila (Resolution or Undertaking of Sila) kenhowardau Hi Sarah, This is a very nice post, thank you. I will read it out at the next Cooran meeting on Vesak Day. ------------------- S: > Sila is an aspect or foundation of all kinds of kusala (wholesomeconsciousness) – whether it be sila, dana or bhavana. ------------------- I have sometimes been confused by the two usages of the word: it's good to see it set down in black and white. -------------------------------------------------- S: > Usually there's no act of dana or bhavana, so the kusala is simply referred to as `siila', --------------------------------------------------- Maybe I haven't understood that properly. I would have thought dana was the most active of the three - e.g., when gifts physically change hands. ------------------- S: > for example when there's kindness or helpful speech now. ------------------- I'll have to think about it. ---------------------- S: > As Chris mentioned, we discussed "the difference between "Undertaking" and"Observing" the Precepts. There were also many references to `samaadaana siila', the undertaking or resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. ---------------------- This is pertinent to the questions I've been asking lately, and it does help, thanks. I have to say, however, that 'an undertaking or resolution' sounds a bit like making promises we can't keep. But, of course, it doesn't have to mean that. ---------------------------- S: > There were questions about following the 8 silas or precepts (abstaining from eating after midday, from wearing ornamentation and sleeping in a high bed in addition to the usual five). It was pointed out that these are not usually household precepts and once more it depends on our intentions for such undertakings, because we are not yet sotapannas. ---------------------------- Yes, I'm a bit apprehensive about Cooran's first 8-precept day. You will have had experiences with Uposatha in Asia: do people resist laughing, focus one plough-length ahead and that sort of thing? --------------------------------- --------------------------------- As I said, this is a very helpful post, and I will read it out on our 8-precept day. Warnings need to be given against ritualistic attempts at 'control' but, at the same time, no one wants me harping on and on spoiling everything. :-) ---------------------- S: > In MN 46, the the Mahaadhammasamaadaana Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl), we read about right and wrong undertaking (samaadaana), rooted in right and wrong view: The third way is the abstaining from misconduct but experiencing grief and pain as a result!! --------------------- Physical pain is vipaka, but grief comes with akusala citta: how is grief connected with virati? Thanks again for the post. Ken H 44874 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah, all sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, Whenever I start wondering how you're doing, you appear:-) --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > I am writing this message to inform you all that I don't think this > being a regular member of this discussion group is 'me.' At least for > the present, I will not be checking here as the threads I start do not > yield the good results I was expecting when I began them. .... S: Could you elaborate just a little on what 'the good results' you were expecting were? What kind of results have resulted? Sometimes, as Nina and I discuss, when we hear the Dhamma, it's not pleasant or easy and may seem more like bitter medicine. I gave an example yesterday from a sutta of how even undertaking good acts may seem like bitter medicine for some of us, but the result is always good, if the intentions are good. .... >Certainly > it is due to some differences of view between myself and members on > the list, some to my unfamiliarity with and lack of proficiency in the > texts, and to some extent my inclination to be more of a dry poster > than to have my questions and responses based on or affected by things > I see or encounter in day to day reality. ... S: I think we all have differences of view here and none of us are really familiar or have real 'proficiency in the texts' as you put it. If we did, we'd all be ariyans for sure, because any proficiency has less to do with familiarity with the word and a lot more to do with understanding what is meant. I wrote a post about making mistakes as we all do. I had recently discussed with friends how no matter how much or little we understand of the teachings, we have to go on researching and checking and asking for help from anyone who knows better. We have to question, check the reasons and causes for what they say, so that we can consider more until what we hear is our own understanding. This is because we're just studying what is relevant to our understanding in order to have less attachment, aversion and ignorance. Definitely we'll be students of the Dhamma for our whole lives and we can never know everything, but we jsut try to understand what we can for now and when we know more, we can say more. The main thing, I think, is to learn to see all dhammas as anatta, otherwise we just have headaches and problems all the time, trying to select and control dhammas or trying to know a lot of detail but without any real understanding. Would you please elaborate on the second half of your paragraph ('dry poster' etc). It sounds interesting, but I don't quite follow your meaning. .... > > I will attempt to finish up some old threads, especially the ones with > Sarah, and see how it goes from there. I don't think I'll be > abandoning this group completely, but I don't think it will be my home > away from home either. ... S: If you'd rather start new threads or abandon them all together, it's fine. Whatever you feel is most useful, Al. No, please don't abandon us!! Your last set of posts contained excellent questions and astute observations -- we can all benefit from them. At least I can. No need to think too much about whether DSG is your 'home away from home' or whether the list is 'you'! Just take one day at a time and if you feel like responding to any posts or threads or feel like initiating any, as you've done here, just know we'll be glad to hear from you. I believe that you really reflect very deeply on the Teachings in a way that is most unusual, especially for someone young. Your faith and understanding of the dhammas as dhammas is very precious. So please chip in from time to time when you can. It's most inspiring. Metta, Sarah ===== 44875 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Dear Htoo, > Mahasatipatthana sutta which is described in Mahavagga of Digha > Nikaaya of Tipitaka definitely say about 'breathing'. > > Regarding teachers, they instruct how to follow the laid out path. > There may be many traditions. I value all and I do not accuse of > anyone's method not genuine. > > Example is Mahasi Sayadaw's method. > > When I studied what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, I did not find any flaws. I started my path along the Theravada tradition with Goenka, this was five years ago. I chose his method because a retreat was accessible. But soon after my first retreat, I came upon and read a book by Mahasi Sayadaw. This impressed me greatly and was even decisive in turning me away from Mahayana to Theravada and I remember regretting that I had not discovered Mahasi's method before the Goenka, because I would surely have ended up taking a 20 day retreat. But the methods being different and I was unwilling to change, I went for my second Goenka retreat a couple of months later. But all that changed after I came upon DSG and Abhidhamma. Now, I don't think I will ever be interested in formal practice in this lifetime. The fact that `breath' is mentioned in the Mahasatipatthana sutta, I think interpreting the significance of this is what we need to go into, and this must be in light of the whole Tipitaka and what is really the "Dhamma" taught by the Buddha. Jon and Nina have discussed quite a bit on this topic and I depend on their greater understanding, familiarity with the Texts and analytical power to do the job ;-). Metta, Sukinder 44876 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings11 - Samaadaana Siila (Resolution or Undertaking of Sila) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This is a very nice post, thank you. I will read it out at the next > Cooran meeting on Vesak Day. ... S: thank you. To be honest, I wasn’t familiar with the phrase ‘samaadaana siila’, didn’t know how it was spelt and so it took some tracking down in big dictionaries:-). If you read it out with the previous one(the Hunter’s wife Musing), between them you’d be guaranteed a lively, controversy-filled weekend:-). ..... > ------------------- > S: > Sila is an aspect or foundation of all kinds of kusala > (wholesomeconsciousness) – whether it be sila, dana or bhavana. > ------------------- > > I have sometimes been confused by the two usages of the word: it's > good to see it set down in black and white. > > -------------------------------------------------- > S: > Usually there's no act of dana or bhavana, so the kusala is > simply referred to as `siila', > --------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe I haven't understood that properly. I would have thought dana > was the most active of the three - e.g., when gifts physically > change hands. ... S: Perhaps I didn’t express it well. Yes, dana is when there is some active giving. Bhavana refers to moments of samatha or vipassana development. Usually, when the citta is kusala, it’s none of these, so it’s just sila, even though there is also sila with dana and bhavana. .... > > ------------------- > S: > for example when there's kindness or helpful speech now. > ------------------- > > I'll have to think about it. .... S: I mean that these are common kinds of kusala which are not dana or bhavana. So they are referred to as sila when we say/read that all kinds of kusala are sila, dana or bhavana. .... > > ---------------------- > S: > As Chris mentioned, we discussed "the difference > between "Undertaking" and"Observing" the Precepts. > > There were also many references to `samaadaana siila', the > undertaking or resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. > ---------------------- > > This is pertinent to the questions I've been asking lately, and it > does help, thanks. I have to say, however, that 'an undertaking or > resolution' sounds a bit like making promises we can't keep. But, of > course, it doesn't have to mean that. .... S: No, id doesn’t mean that. That’s the point. Samadana sila doesn’t refer to mere undertakings or promises when we’re with a group or at the temple but which are forgotten or not acted on when we leave. .... > > ---------------------------- > S: > There were questions about following the 8 silas or precepts > (abstaining from eating after midday, from wearing ornamentation and > sleeping in a high bed in addition to the usual five). It was > pointed out that these are not usually household precepts and once > more it depends on our intentions for such undertakings, because we > are not yet sotapannas. > ---------------------------- > > Yes, I'm a bit apprehensive about Cooran's first 8-precept day. You > will have had experiences with Uposatha in Asia: do people resist > laughing, focus one plough-length ahead and that sort of thing? .... S: :-) People do what there are conditions to do and if that is to laugh, well, even those cittas can be known for what they are. Just let anyone follow what they like with metta! .... > As I said, this is a very helpful post, and I will read it out on > our 8-precept day. Warnings need to be given against ritualistic > attempts at 'control' but, at the same time, no one wants me harping > on and on spoiling everything. :-) .... S: I doubt they’d be able to stop you :-). Isn’t that what they ‘pay’ for? .... > > ---------------------- > S: > In MN 46, the the Mahaadhammasamaadaana Sutta > (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl), we read about right and wrong undertaking > (samaadaana), rooted in right and wrong view: > > The third way is the abstaining from misconduct but experiencing > grief and pain as a result!! > --------------------- > > Physical pain is vipaka, but grief comes with akusala citta: how is > grief connected with virati? .... S: This is a harder question and my paraphrase may have been a touch inaccurate. The text says. P. 410: “Now, bhikkhus, one who is wise, knowing this way of undertaking things that is painful now and ripens in the future as pleasure, understands it as it actually is thus: ‘This way of undertaking things is painful now and ripens in the future as pleasure.’ Ah, I see where I got the grief from now...it comes in later, p.412 “What, bhikkhus, is the way of undertaking things that is painful now and ripens in the future as pleasure? Here, bhikkhus, someone in pain and grief abstains from killing living beings, and he experiences *pain and grief that have abstention from killing living beings as condition. In pain and grief he abstains from taking what is not given...from misconduct in sensual pleasures.....from speaking falsehood.....from speaking maliciously...from speaking harshly.....from gossiping...he is not covetous...he does not have a mind of ill will...he holds right view, and he experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition.* On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, even in the heavenly world. This is called the way of undertaking things that is painful now and ripens in the future as pleasure.” As you say, no grief or even akusala vipaka with kusala cittas (virati), but conditioned by them. As Htoo mentioned recently, akusala can condition kusala and vice versa by natural decisive support condition. For example, by not harming some insects, one may have a lot of dosa to them when they over-run the place or our hypthetical doctor may lose his income and suffer as a result of turning down the abortions. Anathapindika was very generous but lost all his wealth and suffered a lot. Or we take the bitter medicine when we hear reminders about our wrong views, often conditioning some dosa (Nina will be laughing:-)), but we need to hear the reminders and take the medicine. She and I both feel the more the better. There’s another sutta in MN I like about explaining dhamma at the right time and this includes even those times we know it will cause some unhappiness, but have confidence the ‘medicine’ is necessary. Hence, your good intentions to question the undertaking of the 8 precepts etc. Of course your comments won’t be liked by all -- I’m sure they never are!!-- and there will be some temporary grief, but you know friends may benefit in the longer run from further reflection and open discussion of these topics. Metta, Sarah ======= 44877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. nilovg Dear Tep and Matheesha, Thank you Tep for all the sutta texts, a lot to consider. I do not really know the answer to all those sutta texts on jhana. Besides, Larry put me to work today! Yes, Matheesha, I read in the suttas that also householders could attain jhana. If someone has the inclination to cultivate it and can be sure that he attains what is really jhana let him do it. No problem. Jhana is a high degree of kusala. In the course of years we had countless discussions about jhana and dry insight. It would be monotonous to repeat them all. They can be found under search: jhana. We discussed many suttas. As I understand, paññaa is essential for jhana, and also to know what calm is: being removed from lobha, dosa, moha. In Jhana one suppresses defilements, but in the end they have to be known by insight when they appear. As is explained under the Application of Mindfulness of citta. All realities have to be known as they are, as non-self. Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow. Nina. op 28-04-2005 04:18 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > Intellectual understanding is necessary at the beginning when we > study the Dhamma (pariyatti). However, it is a mistake to believe that > intellectual understanding alone is strong enough as the supporting > condition for knowledge and vision of realities: it is concentration > (samadhi) that is the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of > realities. 44878 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, equanimity. nilovg Hi James, thank you for sharing your moving story about the kitten. I know you love animals, like we do. Yes, such a good example of equanimity. It does help us in life. Nina. op 28-04-2005 00:00 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > James: I agree so much with this, especially about the equanimity and > kamma. Let me tell you a story: tonight I was walking home from the > grocery store and I found a little kitten crying and mewing from the > hood of a car. 44879 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > As for Ken's comments about Buddhist doctors and so on, I'm sure in > Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, there would never be any requirement to > perform such operations (and far less demand too). Hello Sarah, (KenH, RobK,) all, It seems a mistake to generalise using idealised views of the power of religious teachings. When people are fearful or desperate, they will take whatever action seems to offer a 'solution'. In the year 2000, there were 750 to 1000 induced abortion *each day* in Sri Lanka, today's figures will be higher. http://w3.whosea.org/LinkFiles/Family_Planning_Fact_Sheets_srilanka.p df metta, Chris 44880 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Thanks for this. My comment was meant to suggest that in country like Sri Lanka or Thailand or Burma, it would generally be accepted and understood if a doctor preferred not to perform such operations or it certainly would have been until recently, I believe. I may be out of date. metta, Sarah ===== --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > As for Ken's comments about Buddhist doctors and so on, I'm sure in > > Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, there would never be any > requirement to > > perform such operations (and far less demand too). > > Hello Sarah, (KenH, RobK,) all, > > It seems a mistake to generalise using idealised views of the power > of religious teachings. When people are fearful or desperate, they > will take whatever action seems to offer a 'solution'. In the year > 2000, there were 750 to 1000 induced abortion *each day* in Sri > Lanka, today's figures will be higher. <...> 44881 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread (361) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Threads start with explanation on realities. Dhamma Thread discuss on citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatta. Dhamma Thread relate citta with different sets of combination of cetasikas. Dhamma Thread classify cittas in different ways. Cetasikas or mental factors or mental accompaniments are explained in detail with examples and evidences. Cetasikas are grouped into different sets and they assigned as people performing their different functions. Dhamma Thread explain what is rupa and what are each rupa and their implications in loka or worlds of kaama or sensuous sphere, rupa or fine material world or sphere. Rupa are investigated as they are. Rupa are there as rupa kalaapa or aggregates of materials. Different aggregates of materials have been explained in detail. Causes of rupa dhamma are also discussed in Dhamma Threads. How rupa arises, how it falls away and how long they exist when they are living as dhamma are also explained in Dhamma Thread posts. Rupa dhamma are thoroughly discussed in the previous posts. Nibbana is discussed sensitively and explained with examples. After explanation on nibbana, pannatti dhamma is also discussed. Apart from citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana there is no other ultimate realities. Other dhamma is pannatti and panatti is not an ultimate reality. After discussions on these matters, cittas are re-classified. Then cittas in procession or vithi cittas are explained in some detail. There are 14 different functions of citta and these functions are explained along with vithi vara. After processions of cittas, vithi-mutta or procession-free cittas and their implications are explained as bhuumi or realms or as 31 planes of existence. These 31 planes of existence have to exist because of kamma or actions and kamma are then explained in different ways. Currently Dhamma Thread explain kusala kamma and punna-kiriya-vatthu. There are 31 bhuumis or 31 realms because of kamma. There are 4 kamma depending on where beings are born due to their kamma. These 4 kamma are 1. akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Akusala and kaama kusala kamma have been explained in the previous posts. In the coming posts rupa-kusala kamma will be explained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44882 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:55am Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Even before this I was telling my friend how > Australia is going to be culling the wild camel population by > shooting them from helicopters. It is supposed to be a real blood bath and it just really bothers me to consider it (my friend told > me they should just ship them to Egypt ;-). Hello James, There are 700,000 feral camels in Australia - increasing at 11% per annum .. doing huge damage to the fragile environment and limited water supplies .. If any country can transport, accommodate and feed 700,000 camels + the 77,000 extra births each year, then please get them to contact mine, poste haste. No country has previously put a hand up to make any offer at all to help. The cull is not to be a sporting event open to any weekend shooter - the Government will employ professional snipers to ensure the deaths are as quick and clean as possible. metta, Chris 44883 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > ---------------------------------- > > RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion > > refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? > > ---------------------------------- > > > > I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical > procedure > > rather than as a paramattha dhamma. In fact, he doesn't know which > > kamma is present at any one moment, and there is no efficacy in > > favouring one conventional story over another. > > > > The doctor's livelihood is to perform operations as [legally] > > directed by the hospital. He should carry on that way, confident > in > > his understanding of kamma and vipaka. > > > ============================================ Dear KenH, I give my understanding on this. I do not believe that someone can perform an abortion, or spray pesticide on insects, without having akusala citta. I think the more insight there is into paramattha dhammas the more that akusala citta should become clear. So for a sotapanna even to swat an mosquito is an impossibility. In fact the commentaries say that a king's soldier could be standing over a sotapanna with a drawn sword about to cut his head off unless he kills an ant; and at the same time the royal treasurer could be offering a fortune if he do so, but the sotapan would always choose death. Why?: Because they see clearly the nature of akusala. Now even one who is begining to see paramttha dhammas will be that much less likely to kill, or approach a situation where he might kill, than someone who has no understanding. The complication in this- and I think where your protests come from- is that someone with wrong view and acting out of silabataparamasa can also be adverse to killing. However while the outward actions are the same - the lack of killing- the cittas of the two are of different qualities. So wrong view is not revealed by action alone, it needs discussion to see why someone values sila. Neither, of course, is right view shown by distaining abstinence from wrong livelihood. On your comments about the country eventually running out of doctors and other professions, I think we do not need to worry. there will always be enough people who willingly do such tasks. Robertk 44884 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:29am Subject: Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata philofillet Hi Lisa > [Lisa]Sensation of breath comes up before mind can hook anything onto > it for me it is my way of knowing without thought or concept. Oh by > the way in the beginning I did have to control certain things on a > surface level...lol and I still do, I like to talk and eat to much, > until I could let them go, like my anger and fear or I would not be > here talking to you, I would of ran away long ago. Ph: I can relate to letting go of anger etc through mindfulness of the breath. I have done it in the past, and who know, may again in the future. And I can see that for your mindfulnes of breath goes beyond the surface. You've thought about it, worked with it a lot, clearly. >On the most subtle > levels where things come and go quicker than a blink of an eye I do > not control but I can control my fist from connecting with someones > face. Ph: Hopefully! I have had an explosive temper and am feeling confident that it's been weakened thanks to Dhamma but should the right amount of anger well up just as the right face arises in front of me POW!!! Conditions are so powerful.... > [Lisa]Phil I truly enjoy our exchange you make me reach out and try to > explain what I thought I know and really I know nothing, but this is a > blast, I really like working with you. Thank you so much! Ph: My pleasure! This was just a quick dip into this topic, though - since I don't meditate (formally - in daily life there is also bhavana/meditation) I won't have much to share with you. I look forward to reading more of your posts, though. You have a really healthy vibe. (Not that everyone else is morbid or anything...) Metta, Phil 44885 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi Larry, -------------------------------------- > S: "The idea of "mental discipline", how does this relate to the > development of satipatthana? > > L: Sila. Sukinder: So you are saying to turn the mind away from akusala thoughts on to the breath is sila? Could not the breath be the object of lobha in this case? Even leaving aside the definition of sila as `restraint' and taking instead the more broader meaning as in `all kusala is a kind of sila' re: Sarah's latest Musing, don't you think that it is sati and panna which will determine indeed that the moment is kusala and not being a matter of adverting to another object, in this case, breath? ----------------------------------- > S: "Also this seems to refer to the ability to remain on a single > `object´ instead of allowing the mind to drift to other objects. But > how do you determine that this is with panna or even kusala, or in fact > that it is not more akusala than when the mind jumps around?" > > L: By looking. Sukinder: This sounds very `deliberate' i.e. `self'. You "know" that this to be sati and panna at work? There is no problem in my opinion if the mind jumps around, satipatthana can arise in between and this is accompanied by detachment and not any idea of control or to keep the mind maintained on any object. In fact this would be a higher kind of sila. To think that the mind must be maintained one way or another and going about following a method, is I think placing oneself to be fooled by the illusion of result. But you have heard this before many times ;-). -------------------------------------------------- > S: "Also that which can be `attended to over and over´ can only be a > concept. One must make an assumption, how can this lead to knowing reality as it is?" > > L: The objects of satipatthana, e.g. breath, are not concepts. Attend to the breath over and over. Sukinder: I know you don't mean that everyone who approaches the breath will perceive the actual paramattha dhamma of breath. Nor do you say that the earth, wind and fire elements conditioned by this breath touching on the nostril would be perceived as it is. What I suspect you have in mind, is that with persistence, satipatthana will one day arise and be able to maintain during a meditation session. And that this goes hand in hand with knowing other dhammas arising through other doorways. I don't want to argue about subjective experiences. But I do want to point out to the fact that akusala conditions more akusala and kusala more of the same. Wrong view and wrong practice likewise accumulates and right view and practice too. Right view that is pariyatti is in my opinion of the same nature as the right view at a moment of satipatthana. Only that the former has concept as an object, while the later has a paramattha dhamma. And both condition and reinforce the other. ----------------------------------------------- > S: "You say that akusala conditioned by the latent tendencies can be > known, but don´t you think that these will only be in the form of > stories conditioned by the initial story of `using breath as a > reference´ and every other story centred on `self´?" > > L: I don't quite follow your question, but I would say desire can be > known and it is a reality. Sukinder: Any idea of "doing" must be based on a `situation', `story'. To keep coming back to a particular object, the breath, the story must be retold over and over. Paramattha dhammas arise and fall long before any decision is made to come back to the breath, but still we go along with the decision to continue the practice. This can only be done with a self who is happy to maintain any illusion of knowing. No doubt that depending on the accumulations, even here there can be satipatthana. However if this were so, it would be with detachment and so no reason to continue with any ritualized activity in the name of developing more understanding. In fact one way to determine if indeed our practice is `right' is to see if there is any detachment involved. ------------------------------------------ > S: "I doubt that this can lead to satipatthana but instead only > `thinking´ about kusala and akusala and this too, not necessarily with > any level of panna." > > L: If you really don't want to do this you could recognize and > experience that aversion as aversion. Sukinder: :-) I could, or it could be any other reality. And if it is not a matter of my wanting to or not, but only about understanding conditions, here too there can be some sati. Metta, Sukinder 44886 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding buddhistmedi... Hi Larry and Sukinder - In message # 44885 I can see that Sukinder kept repeating only one theme: Panna that is obtained from studying and considering the doctrine (pariyatti) with sati (if it arises) in the present moment is Sila, Samadhi and Panna -- all in one , and we don't have to train for anything else. We don't need Adhisila-sikkha. We don't need Adhicitta- sikkha. We don't need Adhipanna sikkha. They are the automatic consequences of the intellectual understanding. Nyanatiloka Dictionary explains the 3-fold training as follows : This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (síla, samádhi, paññá). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kamasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjasava). [end quote] Tep : So, Sukinder, the explanation above clearly shows that there are much more than the "panna" at your pariyatti level can accomplish. Some examples of Sukinder's one-track belief: S: Could not <1> the breath be the object of lobha in this case? ... don't you think that <2> it is sati and panna which will determine indeed that the moment is kusala and not being a matter of adverting to another object, in this case, breath? S: There is no problem in my opinion if the mind jumps around, <3>satipatthana can arise in between and this is accompanied by detachment and not any idea of control or to keep the mind maintained on any object. > L: The objects of satipatthana, e.g. breath, are not concepts. > Attend to the breath over and over. S: I don't want to argue about subjective experiences. ... Right view that is <4>pariyatti is in my opinion of the same nature as the right view at a moment of satipatthana. Only that the former has concept as an object, while the later has a paramattha dhamma. S: In fact one way to determine if indeed our practice is `right' is to see if there is any detachment involved. Tep : The only thing I agree with you, Sukinder, is your last remark above -- it is the same as saying "the proof in in the pudding". Have you proved that you are free from detachment? Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > -------------------------------------- > > > S: "The idea of "mental discipline", how does this relate to the > > development of satipatthana? > > > > L: Sila. > > Sukinder: > So you are saying to turn the mind away from akusala thoughts on to > the breath is sila? Could not the breath be the object of lobha in this > case? Even leaving aside the definition of sila as `restraint' and taking > instead the more broader meaning as in `all kusala is a kind of sila' re: > Sarah's latest Musing, don't you think that it is sati and panna which will > determine indeed that the moment is kusala and not being a matter of > adverting to another object, in this case, breath? > ----------------------------------- > > > S: "Also this seems to refer to the ability to remain on a single > > `object´ instead of allowing the mind to drift to other objects. But > > how do you determine that this is with panna or even kusala, or in fact > > that it is not more akusala than when the mind jumps around?" > > > > L: By looking. > > Sukinder: > This sounds very `deliberate' i.e. `self'. You "know" that this to be sati > and panna at work? There is no problem in my opinion if the mind > jumps around, satipatthana can arise in between and this is > accompanied by detachment and not any idea of control or to keep the > mind maintained on any object. In fact this would be a higher kind of > sila. To think that the mind must be maintained one way or another and > going about following a method, is I think placing oneself to be fooled by > the illusion of result. But you have heard this before many times ;-). > -------------------------------------------------- > > > S: "Also that which can be `attended to over and over´ can only be a > > concept. One must make an assumption, how can this lead to > knowing reality as it is?" > > > > L: The objects of satipatthana, e.g. breath, are not concepts. Attend > to the breath over and over. > > Sukinder: > I know you don't mean that everyone who approaches the breath will > perceive the actual paramattha dhamma of breath. Nor do you say that > the earth, wind and fire elements conditioned by this breath touching on > the nostril would be perceived as it is. What I suspect you have in mind, > is that with persistence, satipatthana will one day arise and be able to > maintain during a meditation session. And that this goes hand in hand > with knowing other dhammas arising through other doorways. > > I don't want to argue about subjective experiences. But I do want to > point out to the fact that akusala conditions more akusala and kusala > more of the same. Wrong view and wrong practice likewise > accumulates and right view and practice too. Right view that is pariyatti > is in my opinion of the same nature as the right view at a moment of > satipatthana. Only that the former has concept as an object, while the > later has a paramattha dhamma. And both condition and reinforce the > other. > ----------------------------------------------- > > > S: "You say that akusala conditioned by the latent tendencies can be > > known, but don´t you think that these will only be in the form of > > stories conditioned by the initial story of `using breath as a > > reference´ and every other story centred on `self´?" > > > > L: I don't quite follow your question, but I would say desire can be > > known and it is a reality. > > Sukinder: > Any idea of "doing" must be based on a `situation', `story'. To keep > coming back to a particular object, the breath, the story must be retold > over and over. Paramattha dhammas arise and fall long before any > decision is made to come back to the breath, but still we go along with > the decision to continue the practice. This can only be done with a self > who is happy to maintain any illusion of knowing. No doubt that > depending on the accumulations, even here there can be satipatthana. > However if this were so, it would be with detachment and so no reason > to continue with any ritualized activity in the name of developing more > understanding. In fact one way to determine if indeed our practice > is `right' is to see if there is any detachment involved. > ------------------------------------------ > > > S: "I doubt that this can lead to satipatthana but instead only > > `thinking´ about kusala and akusala and this too, not necessarily with > > any level of panna." > > > > L: If you really don't want to do this you could recognize and > > experience that aversion as aversion. > > Sukinder: > :-) I could, or it could be any other reality. And if it is not a matter of my > wanting to or not, but only about understanding conditions, here too > there can be some sati. > > Metta, > Sukinder 44887 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:03am Subject: Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Hi Larry > How do you know you don't know? It's impossible. Well, I guess this not knowing is a form of ignorance (moha) which is a paramattha dhamma and can be known, eventually, by its characteristics. All akusala cittas are rooted in ignorance (and either dosa or lobha, or just ignorance.) The characteristics of the dosa and lobha would be what stands out, I guess, or the restlesness or doubt that accompanies the cittas that are rooted only in ignorance. So what is the characteristic of ignorance? I don't know. Sarah posted the other day about having an "inkling" of how much ignorance there is in the day. I have had that feeling too. But it is just thinking, for me, at least. One day when I was cycling down by the sea I saw a red cap and in a kind of flash I understood how fast the mind leaps from visible object to conceptualize. It felt like a fairly deep understanding and it has stuck with me and helped me to understand the difference between concepts and realities, but it is still just thinking, > Phil: "I don't yet understand what it means to understand a reality > directly without thinking about it." > > L: Before you think there has to be something to think about. That's it. There's no thinking without reality. Well, a concept can be the object of thinking. Must be? Yes, must be. The thinking is a reality, but the thing we think about isn't - not in dhamma terms, anyways. Paramattha dhamma terms. Is that statement correct? "The object of thinking must be a concept?" Come to think of it, maybe thinking *isn't* a reality. I think I have learned/heard that it is, and I think I have learned/heard that it isn't - it's the result of a lot of other paramattha dhammas at work, but it is not a paramattha dhamma itself. In any case, whether thinking is a paramattha dhamma or not, the thing we think about it isn't - not when we're thinking about it. Anger is a paramattha dhamma, but it isn't when we're thinking about it. >It's all over the place. There > might be a mythological assumption about the specialness of reality, a > desire for it to be more than it is. Well, I don't think mythological is the right word, but reality certainly is important. Seeing realites, direcly understanding them, is the only we we can crawl out of the ocean of concepts we're drowing in all day. That's pretty special. And it is much, much more difficult to understand them than people who have nevber heard the Buddha's teaching could possibly know. ?A touch of coldness, the blue of > the sky, a good feeling, love, recognizing a friend. Each one of these > is the whole of reality. That's all there is. I don't quite understand this. Each of them is a distinct reality, not the whole of reality, I would have thought. Is the above a Mahayana concept or something? BTW, I read a sutta today that helped me understand "understand" a little bit better. It is SN 22:23, "Full Understanding." "And what, bhikkhus, is full undersatnding? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion. This is called full understanding." The commentarial note by Bhikkhu Bodhi noted that parinna (full nderstanding) is used as a virtual synonym for pahana (abandonment.) We see here a degree of understanding that is at the opposite end of a continuum from my very shaky intellectual, book-based understanding. This sutta helped me to relax - there is a long way to go until direct understanding. Sarah wrote something in a post that I liked. The more panna develops, the less worrying/wondering about how much panna there is, can be etc. That is one of my loose paraphrases. As panna develops, it naturally eliminates pondering about panna. But as you can see I am still pondering. Metta, Phil 44888 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:59am Subject: The Path is born matheesha333 Hi Nina, I wonder if you could explain in abhidhamma terms what is meant by the below phrase 'the path is born', "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta/In Tandem I'm wondering if this ties in with something where all the factors of the path reach highest point before issuing forth in magga and phala citta. I couldnt find a clear explanation on this, what I feel is an important issue. Any comments will be welcome. metta Matheesha 44889 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:24am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo, > Mahasatipatthana sutta which is described in Mahavagga of Digha > Nikaaya of Tipitaka definitely say about 'breathing'. > Regarding teachers, they instruct how to follow the laid out path. > There may be many traditions. I value all and I do not accuse of > anyone's method not genuine. > Example is Mahasi Sayadaw's method. > When I studied what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, I did not find any flaws. Sukin continued: I started my path along the Theravada tradition with Goenka, this was five years ago. I chose his method because a retreat was accessible. But soon after my first retreat, I came upon and read a book by Mahasi Sayadaw. This impressed me greatly and was even decisive in turning me away from Mahayana to Theravada and I remember regretting that I had not discovered Mahasi's method before the Goenka, because I would surely have ended up taking a 20 day retreat. But the methods being different and I was unwilling to change, I went for my second Goenka retreat a couple of months later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You already have advanced abhidhamma knowledge. I do not need to say any abhidhamma to you. As you did, I also experienced different methods. But you did not change the 1st one and when you join DSG, you seem to be stable. That is you no more believe in 'formal meditation'. I know DSG. But when I re-discover 'a sentence written by highly regarded person', I will let you know. If anyone is interested in this matter could they please write to me off-line. My practice started with Sunlum Sayadaw's method. It was a bit different from other. I also met Shwe Kyin Sayadaw's method. It looks natural. When I met Moegok Sayadaw's method, it was good to practise. But meditation teachers taught theory first. DSG seems to be stuck in theory. Realization-wise, I would like to classify them into 4 groups. 1. theory first, followed by practice 2. practice first, followed by theory 3. theory and practice go in tandem 4. indefinite achievement Whatever you believe, I believe The Buddha and The Buddha's words. The Buddha declared in Mahasatipatthana sutta that satipatthana is the only way, a single way, no other alternative way, genuine way for liberation. I do not want to accuse anyone doing satipatthana as doing rituals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: But all that changed after I came upon DSG and Abhidhamma. Now, I don't think I will ever be interested in formal practice in this lifetime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The question is what is 'formal practice'. If you describe The Buddha's method as 'formal practice', there is no way to be liberated. The Buddha Himself walked on the path He taught. Foregoing Sammasambuddhas all walked on the same path. All paccekabuddhas walked on this very same path of satipatthana. All saavaka walked on this very same path of satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: The fact that `breath' is mentioned in the Mahasatipatthana sutta, I think interpreting the significance of this is what we need to go into, and this must be in light of the whole Tipitaka and what is really the "Dhamma" taught by the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The problem is that even 'a single sutta' is not fully understood how one would touch whole tipitaka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: Jon and Nina have discussed quite a bit on this topic and I depend on their greater understanding, familiarity with the Texts and analytical power to do the job ;-). Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahasi Sayadaw was a great Sayadaw. That was why I accept the job of questioner at 6th Buddhists Council. His position is like Venerable Kassapa Thera. Mahasi Sayadaw had no doubt greater understanding than other contemporary bhikkhus at that time. He was well well well familiarised with the texts and the whole tipitaka and that was why he accept to do the great job of questioner or pucchaka thera at 6th Buddhists Council. What I believe is that if satipatthana practitioners are accused of doing rituals and doing formal meditation and satipatthana practice is disregarded, then there is no way for liberation. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44890 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Tep and Matheesha, Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Tep, Matheesha, 'everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow'. As soon as I saw this sentence, I remember a saying 'attaahi attano naatho'. Even The Buddha just did as a guide. The Buddha could not create arahatta magga nana for others. The problem is the word 'understanding'. Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44891 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (338) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) Janaka kamma, upatthambhaka kamma, and upapiilaka kamma have been talked in the previous posts. Still there left the fourth kamma in this group of kamma according to their causative power or regenerative power. This fourth kamma is called upaghataka kamma. This kamma is very powerful unlike other three kamma. Janaka kamma has the power or potential to give rise to its effect. Its weightage is supported by uptthambhaka kamma while upapiilaka kamma diminishes the power of janaka kamma. Unlike upapiilaka kamma, upaghaataka kamma completely abolish the existing kamma. Upaghaataka kamma eradicates all the potentials that exist in janaka kamma in question to the level that no trace of janaka kamma is left. Anyone or any being in any of 31 realms has many many existings or lives in the immesaurable rounds of rebirth cycle or samsara. When matured, being develops to highest level of panna or wisdom and becomes an arahat. As soon as arahatta magga nana arises all the existing 'kamma that may give rise to future rebirths' are totally abolished by arahatta magga nana's power. The cetana that arises along with arahatta magga citta is sahajaata- kamma and that kamma eradicates all the existing 'kamma that may give rise to future rebirths'. That cetana is kamma. But it arises and stays just for a citta-moment or a cittakkhana. But its shade or kamma follows all arising cittas till cuti citta of that arahat. At the end of cuti citta of arahat, samsara-long accumulations are all extinguished instantaneously. This kamma cut up all rebirth-giving kamma and it may be called as upaghaataka kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44892 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:27am Subject: Biological Beings, The Buddha and Cittas in a day (02) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The first consciousness for the day is manodvara-avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness. This citta is at the mind and it first knows that we wake up. It cannot stay long. It just lasts a moment. Next arises 1st javana citta. This citta also knows that we wake up. Again it passes away. Next 2nd javana citta arises. This happens till 7th javana citta. Actually knowledge that we wake up does not arise at that first consciousness of the day. But apperception-wise, the first consciousness is that we know that we wake up. If these cittas are looked in detail, before we know that we wake up, there have to happen many many many cittas. These may be touch-sense-consciousness, sound-sense-consciousness, light-sense-consciousness, smell-sense-consciousness, taste-sense- consciousness. These 5 physical senses are real start of the day. But there may still be other consciousness like manodvara-vithi cittas that think out our dreams. All cittas that arose in The Buddha worked fruitfully. So all moments during the day time are busy with their jobs. When The Buddha rested, there arose bhavanga cittas and then The Buddha went into deep sleep. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44893 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Nina, Matheesha - Thank you Nina and Htoo for your final remarks : N: > > Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last > instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he > should follow. T: Please carefully notice that in the earlier message to Nina, I quoted from several discourses given by the Buddha [SN XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta, Iti III.36; Iti 80, AN IX.36 and MN 64, AN IX.36, MN 64, and SNXII.23]. So, did Nina mean that those "comments and advice" the suttas are just one of the alternatives? One big difference is that I believe the Buddha's "comments and advice" are the only way for me to follow. ------------------------- H: > > Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before > sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. > T: Of course, Htoo. But how is "real understanding" fully developed? Let's examine Indriya. Saddha (in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha) is the first of the five Indriyas, and Panna is the last. Maybe the reason why Panna is the last is because it is the most difficult to be fully developed without the other four as supporting conditions. What do you say? Respectfully, Tep ======== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Tep and Matheesha, > > > > Nina. > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Nina, Tep, Matheesha, > > 'everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should > follow'. > > As soon as I saw this sentence, I remember a saying 'attaahi attano > naatho'. > > Even The Buddha just did as a guide. The Buddha could not create > arahatta magga nana for others. > > The problem is the word 'understanding'. > > Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before > sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44894 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo, Nina, Matheesha - Thank you Nina and Htoo for your final remarks : N: > > Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last > instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he > should follow. T: Please carefully notice that in the earlier message to Nina, I quoted from several discourses given by the Buddha [SN XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta, Iti III.36; Iti 80, AN IX.36 and MN 64, AN IX.36, MN 64, and SNXII.23]. So, did Nina mean that those "comments and advice" the suttas are just one of the alternatives? One big difference is that I believe the Buddha's "comments and advice" are the only way for me to follow. ------------------------- H: > > Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before > sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. T: Of course, Htoo. But how is "real understanding" fully developed? Let's examine Indriya. Saddha (in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha) is the first of the five Indriyas, and Panna is the last. Maybe the reason why Panna is the last is because it is the most difficult to be fully developed without the other four as supporting conditions. What do you say? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 1.saddhaa 2.viiriya 3.sati 4.samaadhi 5.pannaa Because of maturity of these, all anaagams have to be reborn in 5 pure abode or 5 suddha-vaasa brahma bhuumis or realms. The highest brahma bhuumi is akanittha bhuumi and this is reached through pannaa. Next below akanittha is sudassii bhuumi and this is reached by samaadhi maturition. Next below is sudassaa bhuumi and it is reached by sati. Next below is atappaa bhuumi and this is reached through viiriya. Next below is avihaa bhuumi and this is reached through saddhaa. But these are not in isolation. All brahmas in 5 pure abode DO have all 5 INDRIYAS. But among 5 indriyas brahma with best pannaa are reborn in akanitthaa bhuumi and so on. As soon as magga citta arises, the panna in that magga citta is genuine one that one really experiences. And this is not the copy. If I say 'this panna develop so and so' that saying may be the copy. When you reach it, you will see with your eyes. When you cannot reach it, you will not really see it. But you may still hold the copy successively transferred from The Buddha. The copy is not realization yet. Because you may commit bad things holding the copy. But once you realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at the expence of your life. This happen because there is no ditthi or wrong view, no vicikicchaa or doubt. People may be airing by holding the copy that panna is important, sati is important. But holding hand just holds the copy and the copy is not in the brain. So it cannot be as fast as the brain. The copy has to be put into a computer, click, click, click and find the answer. But the things in the brain, which are already experienced is not like the copy. That is realization and not the copy. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44895 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Path is born nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 28-04-2005 17:59 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > I wonder if you could explain in abhidhamma terms what is meant by > the below phrase 'the path is born', > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- > his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta/In Tandem ---------- The Co. in Thai: and so on. I think the path is born refers to: first the mundane path up to lokuttara magga. He eradicates all defilements. Nina. 44896 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I like your remark about perfection of the five precepts : H: But once you realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at the expence of your life. This happen because there is no ditthi or wrong view, no vicikicchaa or doubt. T: Indeed, this kind of Sila is similar to one of the four factors of stream entry in Anguttara Nikaya X.92, Vera Sutta: "He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > Htoo: > > There are > > 1.saddhaa > 2.viiriya > 3.sati > 4.samaadhi > 5.pannaa > > Because of maturity of these, all anaagams have to be reborn in 5 > pure abode or 5 suddha-vaasa brahma bhuumis or realms. > > The highest brahma bhuumi is akanittha bhuumi and this is reached > through pannaa. > > Next below akanittha is sudassii bhuumi and this is reached by > samaadhi maturition. > > Next below is sudassaa bhuumi and it is reached by sati. > > Next below is atappaa bhuumi and this is reached through viiriya. > > Next below is avihaa bhuumi and this is reached through saddhaa. > > But these are not in isolation. > > All brahmas in 5 pure abode DO have all 5 INDRIYAS. > > But among 5 indriyas brahma with best pannaa are reborn in akanitthaa > bhuumi and so on. > > As soon as magga citta arises, the panna in that magga citta is > genuine one that one really experiences. And this is not the copy. > > If I say 'this panna develop so and so' that saying may be the copy. > When you reach it, you will see with your eyes. When you cannot reach > it, you will not really see it. But you may still hold the copy > successively transferred from The Buddha. The copy is not realization > yet. > > Because you may commit bad things holding the copy. But once you > realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at the expence of your > life. This happen because there is no ditthi or wrong view, no > vicikicchaa or doubt. > > People may be airing by holding the copy that panna is important, > sati is important. But holding hand just holds the copy and the copy > is not in the brain. So it cannot be as fast as the brain. > > The copy has to be put into a computer, click, click, click and find > the answer. > > But the things in the brain, which are already experienced is not > like the copy. That is realization and not the copy. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44897 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:48pm Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Christine), Sarah: When we were walking amongst the beggars in India, I also found it helped a lot to reflect on kamma and to develop a little metta, compassion and especially equanimity right then and there. James: The equanimity I developed toward the kitten wasn't until later, but I was still satisfied to have had the inspiration and insights arise- even thought they were delayed. I believe it is very difficult to have the type of equanimity, compassion, and metta you describe exactly at the appropriate times, especially in this day and age of such attachment to the senses. Your ability to do such a thing in the face of such suffering in India demonstrates that your achievement must be beyond my own. However, we must ever be vigilant of the near enemy of equanimity: indifference. It is very easy to have indifference at the moments of such suffering, but not as easy to have equanimity. We must be careful not to confuse the two. Metta, James ps. Christine, I don't doubt the difficult decisions and thoughtful planning made for such an action (regarding the wild camels in Australia). I was simply describing my emotional reaction, not making a political statement. 44898 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Dear Robert K, Thanks again for persisting. There is light at the end of the tunnel - not much, but some. I have a theory that the answers will become clear when I understand the Buddhist concept of livelihood. ----------------------- RK: > I give my understanding on this. ------------------------ And I'll play devil's advocate, if you don't mind: (Sorry in advance for being obstreperous.) --------------------------------- RK: > I do not believe that someone can perform an abortion, or spray pesticide on insects, without having akusala citta. ---------------------------------- Maybe so, but there are cases where an abortion is the only sensible option and where only a religious extremist (or similar fool) would refuse to allow it. Also, there are cases where insects must be killed to save the lives of humans and animals. Can you imagine a doctor refusing to remove a deadly parasitic maggot because it would die in the process? What sort of doctor would let both a woman and a foetus die rather than kill the foetus and save the woman? OK, many people would, and good luck to them, but they should not be doctors. ----------------------------------- RK: > I think the more insight there is into paramattha dhammas the more that akusala citta should become clear. So for a sotapanna even to swat a mosquito is an impossibility. ------------------------------------ There were (and maybe are) sotapannas who were householders with children and domestic animals in their charge. Would they allow one of them to die for want of killing a malaria mosquito or a paralysis tick (etc.)? I don't know, but I doubt it. If they felt that way they would do better to relinquish their duties of care and become recluses. I know it is impossible for a sotapanna to kill, and I'm not necessarily saying they would try to kill. I think, in the above situations, they might act to save the victim despite the apparent risk of (almost certainly) killing the parasite. (Since they are incapable of killing, what have they got to lose?) -------------------- RK: > In fact the commentaries say that a king's soldier could be standing over a sotapanna with a drawn sword about to cut his head off unless he kills an ant; and at the same time the royal treasurer could be offering a fortune if he do so, but the sotapan would always choose death. Why?: Because they see clearly the nature of akusala. -------------------- That's different, and I agree with that interpretation. Putting aside my devil's advocate's hat for a while, I'd like to ask a Dhamma question: What kind of akusala is a sotapanna capable of? I know he can have anger, sense-delight and conceit, but can he deliberately offend someone in the process? If a sotapanna became angry with me and called me an idiot, I'd be very upset (much more so than if a fool did the same thing). What I am thinking is; it would take less akusala kamma to kill an ant than it would to humiliate a human. ---------------------------------- RK: > Now even one who is begining to see paramttha dhammas will be that much less likely to kill, or approach a situation where he might kill, than someone who has no understanding. The complication in this- and I think where your protests come from- is that someone with wrong view and acting out of silabataparamasa can also be adverse to killing. --------------------------------- I don't think that's quite the same point as the one I was making. Rightly or wrongly, I was saying that the conceptual world is only a rough estimation of absolute reality: it doesn't tell us when there is kusala kamma and when there is akusala kamma. Some Seventh Day Adventists would let a child die for want of a simple blood transfusion. They are that sure of what is God's Law and what is not. (And they are dangerously, ridiculously, misguided.) Some Buddhists might let their daughter die for want of an abortion. That is equally ridiculous and misguided. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and pretend to understand when there is kusala kamma and when there is akusala kamma. Let's just follow the rules of society and leave kamma to arise by conditions (as it will anyway). The suttas explain that we go wrong whenever we cling to something ("This is mine") or have the conceit to appropriate something ("I am this") or have wrong view, ("This is my self"). But we will inevitably do those things countless times every day. And to *try* not to do those things would lead to ludicrous results: "No, that is not my wallet" "I do not exist" and so on. That (I am thinking) is why we have the concept of livelihood. It is a role we can act out without believing we have any ultimate control in daily life. We are not ultimately capable of differentiating akusala dhammas from kusala dhammas and so we shouldn't pretend to do so. We should set aside some time for learning the Dhamma, and, at other times, just act out our roles knowing that dana, sila and bhavana depend on right understanding, not on a controlling self. Ken H 44899 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 179- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (j) gazita2002 Dear Sarah, One of my daughters commented that her memory of a past event as a child, was clear but she could not relate herself now to that small person. So I forwarded this onto her - without making any other 'mother' comments :-) I guess its sannakhandha that is one of the conditions for us to think about that 'person that was'. Plus the lobha etc to 'that person'. We cling to our memories but how weird is that, when they are no more that a bubble, and yet we still cling because there are the conditions to do so. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > The Buddha knew the accumulations of beings and thus whenever > he preached to someone he could remind him in the way which > was most suitable for him. He often reminded people of the foulness > of "this short-lived body", in order to stir them to develop > satipaììhåna. The Thera Kimbila (Thera-gåthå 118) was stirred > when the Buddha, by his supernatural power, conjured up the > image of a beautiful woman and showed her passing to old age. > The Commentary relates that he was greatly shaken by this image. > He spoke this verse: > * > As bidden by some power age over her falls. > Her shape is as another, yet the same. > Now this myself, who never has left myself, > Seems other than the self I recollect. > * > Kimbila realized that what he took for self are ever-changing > phenomena. Although what we call in conventional terms the > "present personality" has developed from the "past personality", > there isn't any reality which is self. The phenomena of the present > moment fall away immediately as soon as they have arisen and > are completely gone. The commentary relates that Kimbila, while > he considered the truth of impermanence, was yet more strongly > agitated. He listened to the Buddha, became a monk and attained > arahatship. > ***** > [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 44900 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah, all gazita2002 Hello Andrew, Sarah and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > Whenever I start wondering how you're doing, you appear:-) > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > > > I am writing this message to inform you all that I don't think this > > being a regular member of this discussion group is 'me.' At least for > > the present, I will not be checking here as the threads I start do not > > yield the good results I was expecting when I began them. Azita: Andrew, this is a little note of encouragment to not leave dsg outright. You know, I don't post very often and days may go by when I don't read dsg, but then when I do, there is always something that 'catches my eye'. A little gem that helps me understand the dhamma a bit more, or something that gets me thinking about the dhamma is some way. I personally find listening more beneficial, and that's by accummulations I guess. Stay around and 'lurk' awhile; I make out loud comments, polite and sometimes impolite, and the great thing is - noone hears and therefore not offended :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 44901 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:08pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Hi Larry, and all Ph: > BTW, I read a sutta today that helped me understand "understand" a > little bit better. It is SN 22:23, "Full Understanding." "And what, > bhikkhus, is full undersatnding? The destruction of lust, the > destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion. This is called full > understanding." The commentarial note by Bhikkhu Bodhi noted that > parinna (full understanding) is used as a virtual synonym for pahana > (abandonment.) Today I found suttas (SN 45: 161-180?jin which the progression direct knowledge > full understanding > utter detruction > abandonment is used. I assume this is found in many other suttas. Is there anyone out there who has found the difference between "direct knowledge" and "full understanding" to be useful in your intellectual understanding of realities? Is it one of those things that had best be left as beyond-us-for now? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 44902 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:28pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Ph > Today I found suttas (SN 45: 161-180?jin which the progression > direct knowledge > full understanding > utter detruction > > abandonment is used. I assume this is found in many other suttas. > Is there anyone out there who has found the difference > between "direct knowledge" and "full understanding" to be useful in > your intellectual understanding of realities? Is it one of those > things that had best be left as beyond-us-for now? Thanks in advance. An afterthought question - is the above related to the "three rounds" of the four noble truths that I have been hearing a lot about in the recorded talks. (I forget the Pali - something like sacciyana, gitayana and katayana) The first refers to a "well-established" understanding, the second to something more direct, the third to a full realization of some kind. Related to the above? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 44903 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Hello again > An afterthought question - is the above related to the "three rounds" > of the four noble truths that I have been hearing a lot about in the > recorded talks. (I forget the Pali - something like sacciyana, gitayana > and katayana) The first refers to a "well-established" understanding, > the second to something more direct, the third to a full realization of > some kind. Related to the above? Thanks in advance. After posting the above I googled these three rounds and came up with soemthing from Nina's "Pilgrimage to India" (available at http://www.dhammastudy.com/India7.html): "We read in the ?gKindred Sayings?h (V, The Great Chapter, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch 2, The Foundation of the Kingdom of the Dhamma), that the Buddha, when he was dwelling at Isipatana, in the Deer-park, explained to the five disciples the four noble Truths. The Commentary to this Sutta, the ?gSaratthappakasini, explains about three ?grounds?h or intertwined phases 1 of realizing the four noble Truths: knowledge of the truth, sacca nana knowledge of the task that has to be performed, kicca nana knowledge of the task that has been done, kata nana 2 (snip) Acharn Sujin referred very often to these three ?grounds?h or phases and explained that without the first phase, the firm understanding of what the four noble Truths are, there cannot be the second phase, the performing of the task, that is, satipatthana, nor the third phase, the fruit of the practice, that is, the penetration of the true nature of realities. (end quote) Is this "firm understanding" intellectual? I'll leave it at that for now and get back to putting out the laundry. Metta, Phil 44904 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:08pm Subject: ~Nanna and interesting word foamflowers Hi Everyone! Sometimes words come into my mind and stay with me and I have no idea what they mean. I started chasing ~Nana down and found some other interesting words that speak of understanding as insight. If I remember correctly reading in some post what understanding means. Maybe understanding is actually insight or intuition the knowing without having to think, you just know without out having to put anything together. Cakkhu as faculty of perception & apperception; insight, knowledge. In connection with nana (ghw_sis) it refers to the apperception of the truth (see dhamma--cakkhu): intuition and recognition, which means perfect understanding, janati passati "to know and to see"=to understand clearly; the deva--eye, the eye of a seer, allpervading, & seeing all that proceeds in hidden worlds; panna, the eye of wisdom; he who knows all that can be known (janan passan recognizing & seeing, i. e. of perfect understanding; cakkhubhuta nana dhamma brahma; buddha, the eye of a Buddha or of complete intuition, i. e. of a person who "sees the heart of man," of a being realizing the moral state of other beings and determined to help them; nana--karana, producing (right) insight (and knowledge) of kusalavitakka; majjhima patipada; dada one who gives the eye (of understanding) dhatu the element of vision; patha the range of vision. cakkhunan etan naman=one who has become the possessor of right understanding; The eve as the most important channel of mental acquiring, as faculty of perception & apperception; insight, knowledge; In connection with nana (ghw_sis) it refers to the apperception of the truth (see dhamma--cakkhu): intuition and recognition, which means perfect understanding; the use of the phrase janati passati "to know and to see" to understand clearly. perfect understanding; cakkhubhuta nana dhamma brahma Ñana, knowledge, intelligence, insight, conviction, recognition, opp. anana & avijja, lack of ignorance. -- Ñana in the theory of cognition: it occurs in intensive couple--compounds with terms of sight as cakkhu (eye) & dassana (sight, view), e. g. in cakkhu--karana nana--karana "opening our eyes & thus producing knowledge" i. e. giving us the eye of knowledge (a mental eye) (see cakkhu, janati passati, & karana) Bhagava janan janati passan passati cakkhu--bhuto nana--bhuto; he is one perfected in knowledge natthi hetu natthi paccayo nanaya dassanaya ahetu apaccayo nanan dassanan hoti "through seeing & knowing," i. e. on grounds of definite knowledge arises the sure conviction that where there is no cause there is no consequence; also the relation of ditthi to nana. This implies that all things visible are knowable as well as that all our knowledge is based on empirical grounds; yavatakan neyyan tavatakan nanan yan nanan tan dassanan, yan dassanan tan nanan, nana+dassana (i. e. full vision) as one of the characteristics of Arahantship: see arahant anan hoti or uppajjati knowledge comes to (him) i. e. to reason, to arrive at a conclusion, aparapaccaya, of the non--effect of causation through lack of cause, sammaditthi), same as ahetu--nana Defined as tisso vijja The three kinds of wisdom: inclination of mind, Nibbana, the four fruits of the homeless life (tisso vijja: cittassa adhimutti nibbanam cattari samaññaphalani] Paramattha Mañjusa Tika Sutta Nipata V.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha Tissa-metteyya's Questions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only Tissa-metteyya: Who here in the world is contented? Who has no agitations? What thinker knowing both sides, doesn't adhere in between? Whom do you call a great person? Who here has gone past the seamstress: craving. The Buddha: He who in the midst of sensualities, follows the holy life, always mindful, craving-free; the monk who is -- through fathoming things -- Unbound: he has no agitations. He, the thinker knowing both sides, doesn't adhere in between. He I call a great person. He here has gone past the seamstress: craving. With Metta, Lisa 44905 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:39pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 180 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== There are time and again signs of foulness and decay in our body. Our body is susceptible to decay, and death can come at any moment. We do not know when the last citta of our life, the dying-consciousness, will arise. For those who have accumulated conditions for sati the thought of death can remind them to be aware. We read that the Buddha’s disciples, when they were stirred by an event in their life, “put forth energy and strove with passionate ardour”. We read, for example, in the “Therígåthå (29) that Såmå could not find peace of mind during the twenty five years she was a nun. In her old age she heard a sermon of the Buddha which stirred her, and she attained arahatship. We read that she said: * “To free my path from all that causes dukkha, I strove with passionate ardour, and I won!” * When we read these words we may misunderstand them. We are so used to thinking of effort as effort exerted by a self that we can hardly imagine how there can be effort arising because of its own conditions. Realities appear already through the five senses and through the mind-door. Visible object, for example, appears time and again. We could begin to investigate its characteristic until it is realized as just visible object appearing through eyesense, not something or somebody. There can be striving without the concept of self who strives. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44906 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, -- Concept vs Reality sukinderpal Dear Tep, Some specific and some general comments. ---------------------------------- Tep: > You asked many questions because of doubts or disbelief in the > anapanasati specifically. Sukinder: Was it doubt and disbelief in anapanasati per se? I think it was more about context and whether it is suitable for the beginner, of course here is implied that you and I are indeed only beginners. It is also about whether anapanasati was crucial or even supportive (as far as you and I are concerned) for the development of satipatthana. It may be true that for certain individuals for whom this object is clear and natural to occur, for them the `four frames of reference' can come to completion. But this is because of their developed panna which is so great that any dhamma through any doorway is easily known for what it is. For those of us who are barely able to crawl, it is I think, wrong to make such a connection in terms of our own development. ----------------------------- Tep: > I have prepared a summary of three very > good readings on breathing meditation, and it is given below. Sukinder: I really admire your ability and energy to do this kind of thing. I feel apprehensive just to think about having to write a summary to one post and to look up one Sutta. Also while I am full of uddhacca, your sanna and manasikara seem to work very well. :-) ------------------------------- Tep: > This summary should educate you the necessary basic ideas that may > help reduce your doubts. To actually reduce all your doubts there is no > other way but practicing it yourself. Sukinder: What is your understanding of `Ehipassiko'? To me it is all about sati and panna in the present moment. It is not about following some conventional activity and comparing the result of that with some theory. If the theory (of Dhamma) is understood correctly, that is the test and proof of that level. But if there is no panna at the time, but instead wrong understanding, then the theory would inevitably condition wrong practice, and indeed because of citta, sanna and ditthi vipallasa, we will end up seeing what we like to see, i.e. the illusion of result. On the other hand if the pariyatti (a reference to panna) is correct, then correct pattipati will follow, and when it does, the pariyatti also deepens and NEVER is there any inclination to downplay it. Here `Ehipassiko' has greater meaning. However pariyatti goes all the way till pativedha and beyond, in playing a crucial part in the development of wisdom. ------------------------------------------ Tep: > (1) Why is breathing meditation very useful and recommended by the > Buddha? > > [Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13: Ananda Sutta] > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings > the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. > The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the > seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for > Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & > release to completion. Sukinder: As I said above, this is a reference to stages of development way beyond you and me. But more importantly, this is a "description" of, and not a "prescription" for fleeting khandhas. ;-) ------------------------------------ Tep: > (2) How is breathing mediation practiced and what does it bring? (Just > only the first and second tetrad) Sukinder: I will refrain from commenting on the rest of your post, except to say that I disagree with the reasoning of all three Teachers in the below writings. Metta, Sukinder 44907 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Comments below: -------------------------------------- > Sukin continued: > that I had not discovered Mahasi's method before the Goenka, because > I would surely have ended up taking a 20 day retreat. > > But the methods being different and I was unwilling to change, I went > for my second Goenka retreat a couple of months later. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You already have advanced abhidhamma knowledge. I do not need to say > any abhidhamma to you. Sukinder: :-) No Htoo, unlike you, I don't have anything above a beginner's knowledge of Abhidhamma. You may be surprised as to how much of Abhidhamma I would not be interested in, given my inability to remember and pay attention to pali words and to scholarly writings. ----------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > As you did, I also experienced different methods. But you did not > change the 1st one and when you join DSG, you seem to be stable. That > is you no more believe in 'formal meditation'. > > I know DSG. But when I re-discover 'a sentence written by highly > regarded person', I will let you know. If anyone is interested in > this matter could they please write to me off-line. Sukinder: Please do bring it to our attention here on DSG itself. I am sure almost everyone would be interested. ------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > My practice started with Sunlum Sayadaw's method. It was a bit > different from other. I also met Shwe Kyin Sayadaw's method. It looks > natural. When I met Moegok Sayadaw's method, it was good to practise. > But meditation teachers taught theory first. > > DSG seems to be stuck in theory. Sukinder: If by this you mean that very rarely anyone of us experiences patipatti, then I agree. But if you mean that because we never talk about practice in the conventional sense and encourage it, or that because we praise the value of pariyatti so much, then I think this is because your understanding of pariyatti and patipatti is different from mine. Which seem to be apparent below. -------------------------------- Htoo: > Realization-wise, I would like to classify them into 4 groups. > > 1. theory first, followed by practice > 2. practice first, followed by theory > 3. theory and practice go in tandem > 4. indefinite achievement Sukinder: When you say in 1., "theory first, followed by practice", I think already there might be a difference in understanding. I really don't like to draw a line between pariyatti and patipatti except to show that they have different objects. I know that pariyatti cannot lead to pativedha without much, much patipatti. But all this is not a matter of choice. But if indeed the understanding is correct, then one would have to agree that pariyatti is very important and that Bahussuta is a condition for realization. It is this accumulated dhamma pariyatti, which leads to patipatti and not any decision to practice. --------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Whatever you believe, I believe The Buddha and The Buddha's words. > > The Buddha declared in Mahasatipatthana sutta that satipatthana is > the only way, a single way, no other alternative way, genuine way for > liberation. > > I do not want to accuse anyone doing satipatthana as doing rituals. Sukinder: Satipatthana is not a ritual, but any "doing" is, and that wouldn't be satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin continued: > But all that changed after I came upon DSG and Abhidhamma. Now, I > don't think I will ever be interested in formal practice in this > lifetime. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The question is what is 'formal practice'. Sukinder: Yes a good concept to explore. ----------------------------------------------- Htoo: > If you describe The Buddha's method as 'formal practice', there is no > way to be liberated. Sukinder: Are you referring to what he did before he attained enlightenment or is it something else? Something he taught to do, after he became Buddha? ---------------------------------------------- Htoo: > The Buddha Himself walked on the path He taught. Foregoing > Sammasambuddhas all walked on the same path. All paccekabuddhas > walked on this very same path of satipatthana. All saavaka walked on > this very same path of satipatthana. Sukinder: Yes, and each one of them developed a whole lot of parami. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin continued: > > The fact that `breath' is mentioned in the Mahasatipatthana sutta, I > think interpreting the significance of this is what we need to go > into, and this must be in light of the whole Tipitaka and what is > really the "Dhamma" taught by the Buddha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The problem is that even 'a single sutta' is not fully understood how > one would touch whole tipitaka. Sukinder: The point is not about reading the whole Tipitaka; many can do that with wrong understanding. It is to read it in such a way, that any part touched and explored would not contradict other parts. One must experience one taste, of Anatta, which ever part of the Text is studied. Whatever in the conventional sense, the people of Buddha's time did, the path they took must all be the same one path, Satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > What I believe is that if satipatthana practitioners are accused of > doing rituals and doing formal meditation and satipatthana practice > is disregarded, then there is no way for liberation. Sukinder: Above you said, "The question is what is 'formal practice'". Let us stick with this. No one here has said anything about Satipatthana not being the way. We can start this discussion right away. You label `satipatthana practitioners' and seem to put this together with `formal practice', so at least here you do see satipatthana as something more than a momentary arising of citta and take it to also mean a "person meditating". Or else you believe that a person who follows a certain tradition of practice concentrating on the breath or sensations, that such a person *is* developing satipatthana. Is this your position? Look forward to your comments. Metta, Sukinder 44908 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 179- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (j) sarahprocter... Hi Azita & KenH, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > One of my daughters commented that her memory of a past event as > a child, was clear but she could not relate herself now to that small > person. So I forwarded this onto her - without making any > other 'mother' comments :-) ... S: How nice that you can do this :-). ..... > I guess its sannakhandha that is one of the conditions for us to > think about that 'person that was'. Plus the lobha etc to 'that > person'. We cling to our memories but how weird is that, when they > are no more that a bubble, and yet we still cling because there are > the conditions to do so. ... S: Just so - to that 'me' or 'him' or 'her' 10 years ago, last year, yesterday or even a moment ago --- completely forgetting about conditioned dhammas, all quite worthless. Only the present lobha or other realities now that can be known. KenH, in this account of Kimbila, there was a good example too of what we were discussing about unwholesome states being conditioned by hearing/reflecting on the dhamma. After the 'conjured up' beautiful woman passing into old age was shown to him by the Buddha, he was shaken and even more so when he reflected on impermanence. Kusala and akusala, of course. Then he listened to the Buddha and eventually became an arahant. Metta, Sarah ======= 44909 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: The equanimity I developed toward the kitten wasn't until > later, but I was still satisfied to have had the inspiration and > insights arise- even thought they were delayed. I believe it is very > difficult to have the type of equanimity, compassion, and metta you > describe exactly at the appropriate times, especially in this day and > age of such attachment to the senses. .... S: Any time there are conditions for any wholesome states is a good time and we can't make them arise when the conditions are just not there! I'd like to just say that in the example I gave, the emphasis was on 'little'!! I do think, however, that when we're having discussions and reflecting on qualities such as metta or equanimity, it is a condition for them to arise more often and to be less agitated when we see others people or animals in difficulty. But again, I find there can also easily be clinging to having such states arise, even now, as I reflect further. .... >Your ability to do such a thing > in the face of such suffering in India demonstrates that your > achievement must be beyond my own. .... S: We don't know and it doesn't matter at all. As I just discussed with Azita, what happened last year or month or a moment ago were just conditioned dhammas of no inherent value any more. All equally transient and unworthy of being clung to. .... >However, we must ever be vigilant > of the near enemy of equanimity: indifference. It is very easy to > have indifference at the moments of such suffering, but not as easy to > have equanimity. We must be careful not to confuse the two. ... S: Very well said. Most the time there is ignorance and with it indifferent feeling. There can also be indifferent feeling with equanimity too, so it's easy to be misled by the feeling. In the Vism, (1X, 96) it says: "Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings. Its functionis to see equality in beings. It is manifested as the quieting of resentment and approval. Its proximate cause is seeing ownership of deeds (kamma) thus: "Beings are owners of their deeds......" We were just talking about reflecting on kamma in this regard. Kom wrote a nice post on the brahma viharas a long time ago which you or others might like to look at. I'll also give a quote from it after signing off as I was reminded of it (and a couple of others under 'Brahma Viharas' in U.P.) by your comments along the same lines. Thanks again for your good reminders, and again for your well-written post which started this thread. Metta, Sarah ======= http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13188 "Equanimity has ignorance as its near enemy. Some people mistake ignorance and its associated indifferent feeling as equanimity (often stated as upekkha). Equanimity is the quality of not falling into unwholesome states. When we feel indifferent toward someone's plight, is that lack of metta (and lack of equanimity) or is there a knowledge that we cannot do anything for the person and that each person has kamma as their own? We normally like to think good thing about ourselves (like we have metta, karuna, mudita, and equanmity, especially comparing to other people!), but without knowing these different qualities, then developing them to a high degree is impossible, and a lot of time, thinking that we actually have these qualities are just wishful thinking." ================================================= 44910 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Path is born sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, (Evan, Howard and others*) --- matheesha wrote: > I wonder if you could explain in abhidhamma terms what is meant by > the below phrase 'the path is born', > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- > his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta/In Tandem .... S: Also see several posts written on this much discussed sutta in 'useful posts - Yuganaddha' in the files section and let us know if you have further questions after reading Nina's commentary note and these other posts. Metta, Sarah p.s *I'd just like to add some caution about the 'two weeks to jhana and nibbana path'. I know from my own experience that it's very easy to be fooled by one's own very strong attachment to self and views when one is in a Meditation Centre or temple like the one you describe in Sri Lanka. If one would so much like to reach all kinds of attainments and then one is encouraged by highly regarded teachers or bhikkhus to believe one's unusual experiences are just such, is there really going to be the insight and sincerity to know better? I apologise if these comments are inappropriate. 44911 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (Matheesha*) --- Philip wrote: > > After posting the above I googled these three rounds and came up > with soemthing from Nina's "Pilgrimage to India" (available at > http://www.dhammastudy.com/India7.html): > > > "We read in the ?gKindred Sayings?h (V, The Great Chapter, > Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch 2, The Foundation of the > Kingdom of the Dhamma), that the Buddha, when he was dwelling at > Isipatana, in the Deer-park, explained to the five disciples the > four noble Truths. The Commentary to this Sutta, the > ?gSaratthappakasini, explains about three ?grounds?h or intertwined > phases 1 of realizing the four noble Truths: > > knowledge of the truth, sacca nana > knowledge of the task that has to be performed, kicca nana > knowledge of the task that has been done, kata nana 2 > > > (snip) > > Acharn Sujin referred very often to these three ?grounds?h or > phases and explained that without the first phase, the firm > understanding of what the four noble Truths are, there cannot be the > second phase, the performing of the task, that is, satipatthana, nor > the third phase, the fruit of the practice, that is, the penetration > of the true nature of realities. > > (end quote) > > Is this "firm understanding" intellectual? I'll leave it at that > for now and get back to putting out the laundry. .... S: I understand that yes, it's intellectual, but very firm or unshakeable...more than when we refer to pariyatti. Of course it doesn't mean just intellectual, then satipatthana. If there were not some 'inklings' of satipatthana, the sacca nana wouldn't be so firm. See more on 'rounds' (I think the second listing) in U.P. Also, for more rather technical details on your quote about 'full understanding' and 'abandoning', you may find this post helpful: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40533> Your rough paraphrase about sth I'd said about panna leading to less worrying/wondering about panna sounded fine. I'll let you know if the meaning is quite different anytime:-). *Enjoying all your posts a lot, including the one back to Matheesha's sutta and not clinging to a person as being modest or non-modest and so on. As you say, a good example of how the Abhidhamma can help. I meant to refer to your post when I just wrote to Azita. I'm interested to see any further comments from Matheesha on this as I discussed these same qualities at length with another friend here (Victor) before. Metta, Sarah ======== 44912 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sarahprocter... Hi Alan & Sukin, --- AlanLam wrote: > > > Dear Sukinder, > > Bravo, I concur. Just sit and meditate daily without missing one day, > based on Satipathana Sutta, wisdom does arise. > > And, I read in the web Forum that there are quite many academic dharma > teachers does suffers in life due to their own analysis and sole > opinion of the dharma they preach, but they do not meditate and > practise. Is this the Karma effect ??? Is it true ???? I have yet to > come across these academic professors. ... S: good to see you around again, Alan. I'm glad you liked Sukin's post. If you're in Bangkok, why not contact Sukin and arrange to go along with him to one of the English discussions with A.Sujin, your friend's aunt. She'd be glad to meet you and the first thing she'd ask you is what you mean here by 'meditate' and 'practise'. So let me ask, what do you mean by practise? Metta, Sarah ======== 44913 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" transfusion. They are that sure of what is God's Law Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:48am Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: Any time there are conditions for any wholesome states is a good time and we can't make them arise when the conditions are just not there! I'd like to just say that in the example I gave, the emphasis was on 'little'!! James: Hmm…not sure why you are getting so excited. Where's the equanimity? ;-)) Of course, you already know that you and I don't agree on matters like this. I believe that, if properly trained, people can make equanimity arise spontaneously, regardless of the conditions. The same goes for the other Brahma-Viharas. That is what the Buddha taught and what he intended with his instructions. These are exalted states of mind and are fertile ground for wisdom and release, not just handling difficult situations with ease. However, if one can use the training in the Brahma-Viharas to more adequately handle difficult situations, then so much the better. And Sarah, there is no attachment involved in creating these exalted states of mind; they are the opposite of attachment. Metta, James 44915 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Analyse meditation with Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Lisa & Connie, Great to see your keen interest tracking down terms and joining in many threads. Keep it up!! --- Lisa wrote: > Thank you you are so kind and helpful. My teacher who was a Zen > Abbot > from Korea and never taught me his tradition instead his teacher a > very old man in his eighties that interviewed me said I must learn > from the root of Buddhas teachings the Pali Canon. ... S: I think that was very good advice. In the end, it is the teachings, the Dhamma as contained in the Pali Canon that we must look to for refuge, I believe. .... >I don't think I > have a tradition. I studied the Pali Canon and certain suttas plus > practiced anpanasati, vipassana, and metta meditation for ten years > before I started my study of Mahayana doctrine and sutra. .... S: Oh, that explains your quick assimilation of the terminology and key aspects of threads here. .... >My Dhamma > teacher Sunim had me study the history and culture of Gotama in India > so I could understand the difference between culture and Dhamma and > what Gotama was pointing to on an intellectual level. Sunim told me > it was important to know what one was going to meditate on before > they > actually started meditation. He stressed the understanding of > Equanimity to me because I was very emotional at that time. .... S: More good advice. Yes, as I was just saying to James, I also find the understanding of equanimity to be very helpful -- especially with regard to the aspect of kamma and vipaka when thinking about others who may be having troubles. .... > > I had never done any meditation before so this was all new to me the > discipline of the mind was what I wanted and that is what I got. I'm > still that little red-necked girl from the West Coast near Mt. Hood > that likes to go barefoot in the summer but now I don't lose my > temper > if I stub my toe! Let me tell you, understanding equanimity just on > an intellectual level helped me stick it out on my first retreat...I > stuck to the ground like a pole was nailing me to the ground! .... S: I enjoy your examples, Lisa....one of these days you'll meet Connie (if she can take her nose out of 'Dispeller' for a moment:-). She also has a very colourful turn of phrase and is sort of barefoot from the West Coast I believe....correct me, Connie....)Oh, I just remember that you did have some exchange before. .... > > An interesting meditation for me is to hug those I like or don't like > and try and view sensation and breath without judging or reacting out > of habits. I don't go hugging everyone but I also do this when I'm > talking this is the hardest one for me to stay with. I get lost > easily when I talk!!! .... S: I can relate to all this. When I go to the yoga centre at 6 in the morning for self-practice yoga, I like to sneak in quietly, but am often greeted by friends who like to hug...immediately there are conditions for a little dosa as I try to step back....present moment. And yes, I know about getting lost when talking....we have plenty in common:-). The most important thing is to know these are all just conditioned dhammas, like in all your examples to Phil about your practice. it's so easy to cling to our experiences or take them for 'mine', but it has to be the path of detachment rather than attachment, as I'm sure you know well. Good talking to you and I'll look forward to reading your researched definitions of any terms. Connie may have further comments on these too as she has quite a lot of Pali know-how. Metta, Sarah ========= 44916 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) sarahprocter... Hi Dan I was glad to see you are following the Cetasikas thread and the comments you made here were just what I had been thinking as I pasted and organised the extract. --- "Dan D." wrote: <...> > > "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be > > encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the > > exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, > > then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense > > of urgency. > > "Should be encouraged" and "should stimulate it by reviewing" sound an > awful lot like instructions, do they not? > > "Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these > things are done, these things result." In the first case, there is a > sense of "I must do; I am doing"--moha; in the latter case, there is a > sense of "These results arose from these conditions"--amoha. "Shoulds" > are dangerous traps. .... S: Well said. Btw, did you read: >Musings1: "It is by discussion ....that his wisdom is to be known....< I thought of you and our loooong discussion before when I wrote it, but probably didn't include your name as I wasn't sure if you were around. I think I sent it on Apr 6th but don't have the post # handy. I won't say more as you may have run off already....:-). Hope LisaD and the kids are well. Any more Mara stories? metta, Sarah ===== 44917 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reality and the Mind sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, I'm sorry for replying so late -- I thought you wrote an excellent piece under this heading. It gets better each time it's aired. Just a couple of comments- --- robmoult wrote: > As I walk by the florist, a rose in the window catches my eye. What > is the reality of this moment? <...> > The visual image is passed to the mind (tadanuvattika > manodvaravithi, conformational mental process which immediately > follows the sensing process). The mind links this visual image with > the most recent past visual image (samudayagahika, a set of mental > processes which grasp the visual image as a whole). The mind then > recognizes colours (vannasallakkhana, a set of mental processes > which recognize the colour), delineates a thing from the visual > image (vatthugahika, a set of mental processes which grasp the thing > in the visual image) and then recognizes the thing > (vatthusallakkhana, a set of mental processes which recognize the > thing). The mind then grasps the name for the thing (namagahika, a > set of mental processes which grasp the name). The mind of an > English-speaking person would grasp the name of "rose" at this > moment. Following this, the mind links the name with past > experiences (namasallakkhana, a set of mental processes which > recognize the name). .... S: While I believe the gist is in conformity with the ancient texts, the problem I have is when the detail in Ledi Sayadaw's explanations are taken for the 'Buddha's word' which for me includes the ancient commentaries. I believe these details are somewhere given by Bodhi in CMA, quoting Ledi Sayadaw. I once tried to check the same details in the commentaries but couldn't find this exact ordering he gives, so I'm not sure about it. Comments most welcome. .... <...> > In a fraction of a second we go from a visual image (something that > is real) to imagining the smile on my wife's face (something that is > not real). The visual image was real. However, once the mind started > working on it, this reality got distorted. As explained in the first > Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya (Mulapariyaya Sutta, the Root of > Existence), we are all subject to this kind of distortion and it is > not until we attain the first stage of sainthood (Sotapanna) that we > uproot this tendency. The Mulapariyaya Sutta uses the > term "uninstructed worldlings" for those who have not yet attained > the first stage of sainthood. ... S: Perhaps you should make it clear that you are referring to ditthi vipallasa only here. A sotapanna can imagine a smile on his wife's face without wrong view but with sanna and citta vipallasa surely? .... > > The Honeyball Sutta (MN 18) explains, "What one names, that one > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. > With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions > and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with > respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the > eye." In other words, naming, thinking about and mental > proliferation are subjective activities and subject to distortion. > Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon > itself, covering over the true nature of the reality, layer by layer. .... S: Even for a sotapanna, but not with regard to taking the impermanent for permanent or the anatta for atta. As I say, I'm just quibbling -- it was very well-written and look forward to more. I know you're very busy with your family and work right now, so just look forward to seeing you around when you have more time. Metta, Sarah ========== 44918 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Hi Tep, You're certainly keeping us all on our toes here:-) There was one comment in an earlier post to me which I meant to respond to -- to be honest, I've been rather disorganised and still not caught up from our last trip! --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: It was my ambiguous sentence, `we have to be noble disciples first' , > > that caused confusion here. I agree with you (and Nina) about the > development stages of insight -- I did not (and do not) deny that fact. > I > only meant that the samma-ditthi, according to DN 9, does not belong > to us right now because we are not Stream-winners yet. ... S: I haven't checked the reference, but I'd just stress again that samma-ditthi has to develop in order for it to ever become noble. ... >Therefore, the > sakkaya-ditthis are unavoidable while we are practicing the Eightfold > path. No matter how often you remind yourself that only the viriya that > is > accompanied by right view ("it is a conditioned dhamma, not self") is > the right effort, your viriya still is not the right effort. Why? > Because right > now you still cannot abandon sakkaya-ditthi. So "we have to be noble > disciples first" before our views are the right view. ... S: Different moments, different cittas. At any moments of satipatthana, the effort is right effort and there is no sakkaya ditthi arising. At these moments, there has to be right view. Satipatthana refers to awareness and the other mundane path factors, don't you agree? Even when there are moments of samatha development, there is right effort and right view without any sakkaya ditthi at such moments. Of course there is not right view of realities, but it is still 'right'. I agree that the lurking tendency to sakkaya-ditthi is there until it is eradicated, but we *shouldn't* take this to imply there cannot be any development of right view in the meantime. oops - have to rush out, pls let me know if you disagree as I think this is an important point. metta, Sarah ========= > T: I am honored as a member of this exceptional group. Concerning > my feedback, it is like the Texas' Spring weather - i.e. good for 2 days > and not so good for the next 3 days. I hope to get more helps in terms > of comments and criticism from you all in order to become more > reliable. .... S: We're honoured to have your participation, Tep and I hope to learn from your modest comments here. Hope my feedback isn't too much like the Hong Kong Spring weather - damp and opprssive:-( ..... 44919 From: "AlanLam" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too pubbarama Dear Sarah, Thanks indeed for your kind reply and kind invitation to join some discussion session. As I am a beginner, I wish to spend more time on my practise of Vipassana Meditation, and to follow my Bhikkhu master (who dwell in cave medition throughout most of the year). Hence, I am not ready to join any groupings or group discussion etc. yet. I find full contentment in my practise. I visit quite often few webforum on dharma to learn from others, but very seldom do I respond, as there are so diverse opinion there. I have no ambition to pursue and win a debate and only give my support when I do see points worthy of praise. "practise" do mean to meditate regularly (Buddha always ask his Bhikkhus to meditate in the forest or in secluded dwellings), walk and follow the 8-fold noble path in its every word and every sense in our daily life, when eating, sitting or even walking etc. do be mindful. If one were to hold one's precepts firmly and do the Vipassana meditation (its arising and dissolution of the vedhana, citta and sangharakhanda)daily with as many session as one could, and truely follow and walk the 8-fold noble path, one's life, character not only does change, but the people we meet are all wonderful too. May all your wishes fullfilled and May all be well too. Metta karuna. Phubarama. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: <...> > S: good to see you around again, Alan. I'm glad you liked Sukin's post. If > you're in Bangkok, why not contact Sukin and arrange to go along with him > to one of the English discussions with A.Sujin, your friend's aunt. She'd > be glad to meet you and the first thing she'd ask you is what you mean > here by 'meditate' and 'practise'. > > So let me ask, what do you mean by practise? <..> 44920 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Hi Christine, Yes, I did mean to type Jehovah's Witnesses. I remembered soon after posting that I had named the wrong group. Apologies to all concerned. Ken H > Ken ... > "Adventists promote good health practices, including the use of > blood transfusions where the screening of blood is of a safe and > high standard. The Sydney Adventist Hospital has its own Pathology > Department where patrons can donate blood. Often at regional > meetings, the Adventist Church will invite groups such as the > 44921 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:39am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - Sorry for my not being able to reply to your message (#44840) on the same day it came. As usual, whatever your message is about, it is clear, conceit-free and friendly. > T: So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? ... S: With respect, I think there is already a problem with the question – it is the very view of *us*, *doing* and *something* which takes the practice off-track. So when you give the following alternative/combined answers, there still seems to be an idea of doing or not doing something, an idea of selection or control over the presently arising dhammas. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. T: You're right ! I have asked you to select one of the three choices. So, of course, there is a view of " *us*, *doing* and *something*". But how can you avoid that? Making a choice is a basic human decision-making in everyday living. Have you been able to completely stop making a decision these days? How is it possible that your practice never gets "off -track" any moment of the day? You are making decision all the time -- most of the common decision makings are the selection from a set of alternatives. For example, even when you are reading my message right now, you evaluate what I wrote whether it is right or wrong, and decide how to respond to it. The basic selection can be one of the two choices: a) answer Tep; b) ignore him. Once you've a "selection", say, the first choice, "answer Tep", then another selection decision comes up : a) to write hime a brief reply; b) to give a detailed answer with references. You have to make a selection of what to do. Then there are more selection/ decision makings thereafter. How can anyone stop making a choice? ------------------- T: the reason I asked you to select one of the 3 alternative practices was due to your quote : "Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my body's flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win ...". S: I know this language all wounds like a Big Self taking a lot of action, developing wisdom and striving hard. However, like the entire Tipitaka, it has to be read in the light of anatta, in the light of sankhara dhammas, beyond anyone's conrol of any kind. This is where I think the Abhidhamma helps a lot to show there are mere dhammas to be understood when the conditions are right, don't you think? Then, the keen right effort is there, developing at the same time already. T: Without "taking a lot of action, developing wisdom and striving hard" how can you eradicate defilements of the mind? The language of the Buddha is not ambiguous -- he left no room for anyone to guess what he meant: < "Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my body's flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving">. He said clearly that the monks must strive hard to win the battle. And he announced the triumph loud and clear : "By my earnest endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the unrivalled freedom from the bond". The interpretation of 'there is a self' to 'control' something, to make something happen, are your own. I don't think any well-educated Buddhist, or even Tep, gets mixed up that way. Striving is one thing, understanding the anatta principle is another. T: Those monks who listened to the Buddha and did not waste their time and energy wondering what the Blessed One meant; they too made earnest endeavor and won "the unrivalled freedom from the bond". Such earnest endeavor, the striving earnestly, is viriya bala, one of the 37 factors in the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. T: The anatta principle should not be mixed up with striving. What is anatta? Anatta is one of the three "characteristics of existence" (ti-lakkhana). The anatta principle is given Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59, Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, as follows: Any form (rupa), feeling, perception, mental fabrications and consciousness whatsoever that are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: each of them is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' T: The striving that is guided by right views (samma-ditthi) is a path factor. Understanding very clearly (penetration) the anatta principle establishes samma-ditthi, the first path factor. In order to attain the right view both right mindfulness and right effort (striving) are required < MN 117: "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view.> Hence anybody who understands the Buddha's Teaching would not mix up striving with anatta. S: You're doing a great job in leading other threads, such as the one on anapanasati. I like the way you try to include as many people as possible. T: I appreciate your kind attention on the going-on anapanasati discussion. I think it would be great if we have a famous meditator among us to answer all the practical questions that have come up. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > > Friend Sarah (any interested members are welcome)- > > > > So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? > ... > 44922 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - Thank you for being patient with me. Most people would have already given up because of my stubborness. But I want to assure you that the stubborness is not because of miccha ditthi. ::->) > S: Different moments, different cittas. At any moments of satipatthana, > the effort is right effort and there is no sakkaya ditthi arising. At > these moments, there has to be right view. Satipatthana refers to > awareness and the other mundane path factors, don't you agree? > T: Yes, Sarah, I agree with you that each moment of satipatthana (given that it arises) is so tiny. Yet, that when all three are "right" (1. view, 2 mindfulness. 3. effort), one will be free from lobha, dosa and moha in that tiny moment. S: > I agree that the lurking tendency to sakkaya-ditthi is there until it is > eradicated, but we *shouldn't* take this to imply there cannot be any > development of right view in the meantime. > T: Indeed, because of anusaya we will continue to have "the lurking tendency to sakkaya-ditthi.. until it is eradicated". Further, based on the Paramattha dhamma principles, one cannot predict, "make" or "maintain" these precious moments. It sounds like a hopeless practice to me when you cannot be sure when sati may arise, or whether it may arise -- not unlike a casino game. So do you keep on playing this 'random game' until you win or die? Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > ... > S: I haven't checked the reference, but I'd just stress again that > samma-ditthi has to develop in order for it to ever become noble. > ... > Even when there are moments of samatha development, there is right effort and right view without any sakkaya ditthi at such moments. Of course there is not right view of realities, but it is still 'right'. > > metta, > > Sarah > ========= 44923 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:40am Subject: Clear Comprehension ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: A Simple and Easy Way to Continuous Awareness : Friends, this highly advantageous praxis can be undertaken by anyone, at any time, all day long, in all situations, and at all locations! Therefore: Do it! Repeat it!, & Remember it!: When walking, one understands: 'I am walking..' When standing, one knows: 'I am standing..' If sitting, one notes: 'I am sitting down now..' While lying down, one reflects: 'Now, I am lying down..' When moving forward or returning, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When looking forward or away, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When bending or extending a limb, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When dressing or carrying things, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When eating, drinking, & chewing, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When defecating or urinating, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When walking, standing or sitting, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When falling asleep & waking up, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When talking & dwelling in silence, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. Rational & alert attention is thus the cause of clear comprehension...!!! When - Continuous Awareness - is established, it prevents all mistakes and their painful after-effects! In this way, do clear comprehension lead to loss of frustration & gain of satisfaction! Correctly cultivated, and made much of, this praxis will be all beings welfare and happiness for a long, long time. Since clear comprehension purifies both purpose, the suitability, the domain, and the unconfused focus of any activity! Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.htm http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 44924 From: "quetz333" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) quetz333 New here. Anyway, the Abhidharma has some of the best philosophical arguments anywhere on the state/nonstate of "seeming" human imho. Gongchime http://www.contemplationgarden.bravehost.com --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: <...> > > Is this "firm understanding" intellectual? I'll leave it at that > > for now and get back to putting out the laundry. > .... > S: I understand that yes, it's intellectual, but very firm or > unshakeable...more than when we refer to pariyatti. Of course it doesn't > mean just intellectual, then satipatthana. If there were not some > 'inklings' of satipatthana, the sacca nana wouldn't be so firm. > > See more on 'rounds' (I think the second listing) in U.P. > <...> 44925 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:55am Subject: Re: Reality and the Mind robmoult Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: While I believe the gist is in conformity with the ancient texts, the > problem I have is when the detail in Ledi Sayadaw's explanations are taken > for the 'Buddha's word' which for me includes the ancient commentaries. I > believe these details are somewhere given by Bodhi in CMA, quoting Ledi > Sayadaw. I once tried to check the same details in the commentaries but > couldn't find this exact ordering he gives, so I'm not sure about it. > Comments most welcome. ===== You are correct that the material in my post comes from a number of sources; some of the material originates from the Suttas, some from the commentaries, some from the Abhidhammatthasangaha and some from Ledi Sayadaw. If I want to break out the Ledi Sayadaw stuff, I should probably also break out the Abhidhammatthasangaha stuff as well. The citta process is only broadly mentioned in the commentaries and virtually non-existent in the Suttas. In spite of this, I have heard a number of Dhamma speakers reference the 17 step citta process as "the word of the Buddha". During my class, I usually comment on the original source of each idea (Sutta, commentary, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Ledi Sayadaw or even modern writers such as Ajahn Brahm, Buddhadasa, etc.). ===== > .... > > <...> > > In a fraction of a second we go from a visual image (something that > > is real) to imagining the smile on my wife's face (something that is > > not real). The visual image was real. However, once the mind started > > working on it, this reality got distorted. As explained in the first > > Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya (Mulapariyaya Sutta, the Root of > > Existence), we are all subject to this kind of distortion and it is > > not until we attain the first stage of sainthood (Sotapanna) that we > > uproot this tendency. The Mulapariyaya Sutta uses the > > term "uninstructed worldlings" for those who have not yet attained > > the first stage of sainthood. > ... > S: Perhaps you should make it clear that you are referring to ditthi > vipallasa only here. A sotapanna can imagine a smile on his wife's face > without wrong view but with sanna and citta vipallasa surely? > .... ===== True, the vipallasas are eliminated in stages with ditthi being eliminated first. ===== > > > > The Honeyball Sutta (MN 18) explains, "What one names, that one > > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. > > With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions > > and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with > > respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the > > eye." In other words, naming, thinking about and mental > > proliferation are subjective activities and subject to distortion. > > Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon > > itself, covering over the true nature of the reality, layer by layer. > .... > S: Even for a sotapanna, but not with regard to taking the impermanent for > permanent or the anatta for atta. ===== Agreed. ===== > > As I say, I'm just quibbling -- it was very well-written and look forward > to more. ===== When I presented this paper in my class, I was asked why the mind would identify one a particular thing from a visual field. This led to a very interesting discussion of natural decisive support condition. ===== > > I know you're very busy with your family and work right now, so just look > forward to seeing you around when you have more time. Thanks for your understanding... Metta, Rob M :-) 44926 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:33am Subject: Piiti, Sukha and Endorphin & Encephalin in Jhana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Neuronal theories are interesting. There are endless theories. The Buddha just preached useful Dhamma. The Buddha's Dhamma is enough for our liberation. Whether one masters neuronal theories or not does not master his liberation. There may well be chemical reactions, neuronal reactions, neuronal activities when in magga, phala, jhana, nirodha. But we are not following them. We are following what The Buddha taught for our liberation. Some said that when in meditation especially in advanced meditators, there release endorphins and encephalins. These are neuronal hormones that mediate feelings. There are many receptors for feeling-producing hormones. Heroin, Morphin, Pethidine, opium etc have effects on neuronal receptors and they mediate through endorphins and encephalin pathways. Regarding hormones, there are different implications regarding their synthesis, package, storage, release, and activities. There are consecutive system and inducible system of hormone release. While consecutive release just follows the rule of sustain production and release, inducible release has very fast mechanism. This is something like training. Examples are if one practise jhana, he will be able to do so. He will be able to do so only when he enters the pathway of jhana if he has not exercised enough to become very proficient. Inducible release is something like jhana experts. There is little delay between attainment and the wish in case of experts while there is much delay for non-experts. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44927 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three rounds. Phil. nilovg Hi Phil, op 29-04-2005 05:26 schreef Philip op philco777@...:> > After posting the above I googled these three rounds and came up > with soemthing from Nina's "Pilgrimage to India" (available at > http://www.dhammastudy.com/India7.html): > > "We read in the ?Kindred Sayings?h (V, The Great Chapter, > Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch 2, The Foundation of the > Kingdom of the Dhamma), that the Buddha, when he was dwelling at > Isipatana, in the Deer-park, explained to the five disciples the > four noble Truths. The Commentary to this Sutta, the > Saratthappakasini, explains about three ?grounds? or intertwined > phases of realizing the four noble Truths: > > knowledge of the truth, sacca nana > knowledge of the task that has to be performed, kicca nana > knowledge of the task that has been done, kata nana > Acharn Sujin referred very often to these three ?grounds?h or > phases and explained that without the first phase, the firm > understanding of what the four noble Truths are, there cannot be the > second phase, the performing of the task, that is, satipatthana, nor > the third phase, the fruit of the practice, that is, the penetration > of the true nature of realities. > (end quote) > > Is this "firm understanding" intellectual? -------------- N: As I wrote, there must be the firm understanding that everything is dhamma, that there is dhamma at this moment. It falls away, is impermanent, and thus dukkha. It is more than mere theoretical understanding. There is a beginning of awareness, learning the difference between the moment there is sati and there is none. We do not move away from the present object or try to do something else in order to hasten the development of pañña. We are convinced that this is the right Path, there is the firm understanding what that Path is; no limitations to the object of awareness: kusala, akusala, pleasant or unpleasant, it does not matter. No limitations as to place or time, anywhere, any place. The rounds are intertwined. The first round is not abandoned when there is the second round and the third round. They develop all along together. I could not find your annotations of S.N. 22:23, and 45: 161-180. They deal probably with the pariññas, clear comprehension. This shows the development of the stages of insight which lead to more and more detachment. Nina. 44928 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all Dhamma Friends, :-)) Who is first? Chick or egg? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo, Comments below: -------------------------------------- > > Sukin continued: > > that I had not discovered Mahasi's method couple of months later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > You already have advanced abhidhamma knowledge. I do not need to > say > any abhidhamma to you. Sukinder: :-) No Htoo, unlike you, I don't have anything above a beginner's knowledge of Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here what I see is you quote 'unlike you'. You are referring me as an 'advanced abhidhamma learner'. Where you know very fine points, I would not say you are a beginner. What is real is I am a beginner. :-)) Because I just have 'abhidhammatthasangaha' text. I do not have Abhidhamma Pitaka. I do not have any of 7 texts of abhidhamma namely dhammasanganii, vibhanga, dhaatukatha, puggala pannatta, kathavatthu, yamaka, patthaana. So I am a genuine beginner. I learned a lot from Sarah, Nina, Rob M, Rob M, Ken O, Ken H, Kel, you and many others. But you cannot be a beginner. Because you do know 'formal practice' and 'real practice'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You may be surprised as to how much of Abhidhamma I would not be interested in, given my inability to remember and pay attention to pali words and to scholarly writings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Understanding is more important than wording. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > > As you did, I also experienced Sukinder: Please do bring it to our attention here on DSG itself. I am sure almost everyone would be interested. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will bring it when I find it. Actually I should have noted it in a book for later reference. What I believe is that the teacher is right and said with good intention. But interpretations are not the same by different followers. I will do when I find, OK? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > My practice started with Sunlum > > DSG seems to be stuck in theory. Sukinder: If by this you mean that very rarely anyone of us experiences patipatti, then I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please do not mix 1.pariyatti 2.patipatti 3.pativedha I think you are referring 'experiences patipatti' as pativedha. There are many ion DSG who meditate, I believe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But if you mean that because we never talk about practice in the conventional sense and encourage it, or that because we praise the value of pariyatti so much, then I think this is because your understanding of pariyatti and patipatti is different from mine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pariyatti is important. So is patipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Which seem to be apparent below. -------------------------------- Htoo: Realization-wise, I would like to classify them into 4 groups. > > 1. theory first, followed by practice > > 2. practice first, followed by theory > > 3. theory and practice go in tandem > > 4. indefinite achievement Sukinder: When you say in 1., "theory first, followed by practice", I think already there might be a difference in understanding. I really don't like to draw a line between pariyatti and patipatti except to show that they have different objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are definitely 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I know that pariyatti cannot lead to pativedha without much, much patipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I believe there is just a thin layer between you and me. Otherwise our understanding will be almost the same. That thin layer might be discovered later. I have declared the points to Sarah. When I find it, I will bring it up here on DSG forum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But all this is not a matter of choice. But if indeed the understanding is correct, then one would have to agree that pariyatti is very important and that Bahussuta is a condition for realization. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If a condition, it is yes. But it is not an equation. There definitely are 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is this accumulated dhamma pariyatti, which leads to patipatti and not any decision to practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see your point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Whatever you believe, I believe The Buddha and The Buddha's words. > > The Buddha declared in Mahasatipatthana sutta that satipatthana is > the only way, a single way, no other alternative way, genuine way for liberation. > I do not want to accuse anyone doing satipatthana as doing rituals. Sukinder: Satipatthana is not a ritual, but any "doing" is, and that wouldn't be satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. But you need to set up a profile. The right satipatthana is only possible for arahats. Otherwise according to your definition, there will be rituals. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukin continued: > But all that changed after I came upon DSG and Abhidhamma. Now, I > don't think I will ever be interested in formal practice in this > lifetime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The question is what is 'formal practice'. Sukinder: Yes a good concept to explore. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I expected that you will answer when you reply. But you now just restate what I put. I could not find anything 'formal' in Suttas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If you describe The Buddha's method as 'formal practice', there is no way to be liberated. Sukinder: Are you referring to what he did before he attained enlightenment or is it something else? Something he taught to do, after he became Buddha? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once The Buddha and His disciples were in a forest near a great village, where they depended for the days for alm rounds. The village is called Kammaasadhamma. It was in the state called Kuru. Kuru may be near today Deli. There The Buddha talked to His disciples how satipatthana had to be kept. 'O! Bhikkhus' 'Bhikkhave'. This is a single way for liberation. This is the only way for liberation. This is the way for liberation without any alternative routes.' ''Ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo sattaana.m visuddhiyaa sokaparidevaana.m samatikkamaaya dukkhadomanassaana.m atthangamaaya ~naayassa adhigamaaya nibbaanassa sacchikiriyaaya, yadida.m cattaaro satipatthanaa.'' ''Katame cattaaro? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m, vedanaasu vedanaanupassii --pa-- citte cittaanupassii -- dhammesu dhammaanupassii --pa-- abhijjhaadomanassa.m.'' 'Which four? O! Bhikkhus. The disciple (bhikkhu/practitioner/meditator) has to live looking/noting body, feeling, mind, dhamma diligently and clearly understandingly so as not to arise lobha and dosa which are loka'. As what The Buddha said is 'to be free from lobha, dosa' and also invloving 'clearly understanding', which means free from lobha, satipatthana is DEAD SURE the genuine practice that The Buddha Himself walked and all other Bodhi walked. This is genuine practice that The Buddha taught. If this is accused of ritual or 'formal practice', by avoiding this practice, no one would be liberated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha Himself walked on the path He taught. Foregoing > Sammasambuddhas all walked on the same path. All paccekabuddhas > walked on this very same path of satipatthana. All saavaka walked on > this very same path of satipatthana. Sukinder: Yes, and each one of them developed a whole lot of parami. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you added an extra word for them. Paramii. :-)) I have to agree. And I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Sukin continued: > The fact that `breath' is mentioned in the Mahasatipatthana sutta, I > > think interpreting the significance of this is what we need to go > > into, and this must be in light of the whole Tipitaka and what is > > really the "Dhamma" taught by the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The problem is that even 'a single sutta' is not fully understood how one would touch whole tipitaka. Sukinder: The point is not about reading the whole Tipitaka; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you do not refer to the whole Tipitaka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: many can do that with wrong understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think this is referring that many bhikkhus read the whole tipitaka with wrong understanding. Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, Moegoke Sayadaw, Shwe Kyin Sayadaw, Mingun Sayadaw and many other bhikkhus read the whole tipitaka. I am considering what you referred to 'many'. Who know 'the whole tipitaka'? Who can read the whole tipitaka? Tipitaka-wise there are still untranslated teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is to read it in such a way, that any part touched and explored would not contradict other parts. One must experience one taste, of Anatta, which ever part of the Text is studied. Whatever in the conventional sense, the people of Buddha's time did, the path they took must all be the same one path, Satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In The Buddha's time Magadha is used and all could understand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I believe is that if satipatthana practitioners are accused of > doing rituals and doing formal meditation and satipatthana practice > is disregarded, then there is no way for liberation. Sukinder: Above you said, "The question is what is 'formal practice'". Let us stick with this. No one here has said anything about Satipatthana not being the way. We can start this discussion right away. You label `satipatthana practitioners' and seem to put this together with `formal practice', so at least here you do see satipatthana as something more than a momentary arising of citta and take it to also mean a "person meditating". Or else you believe that a person who follows a certain tradition of practice concentrating on the breath or sensations, that such a person *is* developing satipatthana. Is this your position? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) The Buddha did say 'Idha bhikkhu arannagato vaa rukkhamuulagato vaa sunnaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallanka.m aabhujitva ujum kaayam panidhaaya parimukhi sati.m upatthapetva. So satovo assa sati, satova passa sati. Diigha.m vaa assa santo ''dhiigha.m assassaamii'ti pajaanaati, dhiigha.m vaa passa santo ...' The Buddha did say about 'breath'. My position is to straighten the curve. I am not showing any ego, I am not selling any ego. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Look forward to your comments. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44929 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding sukinderpal Dear Tep, You wrote: In message # 44885 I can see that Sukinder kept repeating only one theme: Panna that is obtained from studying and considering the doctrine (pariyatti) with sati (if it arises) in the present moment is Sila, Samadhi and Panna -- all in one , and we don't have to train for anything else. Sukinder: When I talk about pariyatti, this does not mean that I am excluding or lessening the importance of other forms of kusala. You will remember in fact that I stressed so much on the development of parami, enough to tire you ;-). Even the understanding of dana and sila is enhanced by pariyatti, thus conditioning more instances of it. Let me put it this way. What ever arises does so because of conditions. There are 8 types of Kama Kusala cittas, 4 are associated with panna, and 4 are not. All kusala are helpful and should be encouraged. However only those cittas that are associated with panna are said to be ever doing the job of slowly moving us away from conditioned realities, towards nibbana. But the main thing is that there is no one to decide to practice dana, sila or bhavana. And the reason for stressing panna is, how do we determine if indeed there is any development or if a moment of sila, dana or bhavana has arisen if not with panna? Even to appreciate these theoretically requires panna, how much more so in practice? And the idea of "doing" and that these must be developed in certain order, is what makes it hard or impossible for any panna to arise to know them as they are. ----------------------- Tep: We don't need Adhisila-sikkha. We don't need Adhicitta- sikkha. We don't need Adhipanna sikkha. They are the automatic consequences of the intellectual understanding. Sukinder: I am unfamiliar with these terms, but I am guessing that they refer to higher stages of developed sila, concentration and panna. Do you think there is any `training' and development without panna? I think the difference in our perspective is that you view such concepts as `things to do' and I as `description of conditions'. So even though I do not talk about this, it is nevertheless implied in that these are stages which are needed to go through, but not in anyone's control as to when or if they will occur. For you it seems more like something within control and to be done. And of course, you seem to separate sila, Samadhi and panna, thinking that they can and ought to be developed each on their own. To me this is just an abstraction and does not seem to reflect the true nature of reality. -------------------------------- Tep: Nyanatiloka Dictionary explains the 3-fold training as follows : This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (síla, samádhi, paññá). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kamasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjasava). [end quote] Sukinder: Every moment of kusala accumulates and conditions more of the kind. So sila and samatha both when arisen, will accumulate and support each other and panna. But like I said above, can we even begin to appreciate sila for example, without any understanding? In fact why do we choose Buddhism at all and not another religion if there were no panna to discern the difference? Buddhism is about the development of understanding all the way through. Good in the beginning, Good in the Middle and Good the End. The relationship between sila, Samadhi and panna is not the same kind as that of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. ----------------------------------- Tep: Tep : So, Sukinder, the explanation above clearly shows that there are much more than the "panna" at your pariyatti level can accomplish. Sukinder: No I think you make the wrong comparison. You may instead pint out that pariyatti won't bring out the same effect as patipatti and that without this, pativedha cannot be reached. To this I will then agree. ;-) ----------------------------- Tep: Some examples of Sukinder's one-track belief: S: Could not <1> the breath be the object of lobha in this case? ... don't you think that <2> it is sati and panna which will determine indeed that the moment is kusala and not being a matter of adverting to another object, in this case, breath? Sukinder: I don't mind this, provided that I am on the correct track ;-). ------------------------------- Tep: S: In fact one way to determine if indeed our practice is `right' is to see if there is any detachment involved. Tep : The only thing I agree with you, Sukinder, is your last remark above -- it is the same as saying "the proof in in the pudding". Have you proved that you are free from detachment? Sukinder: You mean free from `attachment', no I am not. However detachment can happen on a momentary level and does reflect in the general outlook of many members here. They know for example that pariyatti is not enough and that this will not lead to the goal without much, much patipatti. Yet while admitting that their understanding is mostly on this level only, they are nevertheless not compelled to seek any shortcuts. :-) Feeling very drowsy, must go to bed now. Metta, Sukinder 44930 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. htootintnaing Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - I like your remark about perfection of the five precepts : H: But once you realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at the expence of your life. This happen because there is no ditthi or wrong view, no vicikicchaa or doubt. T: Indeed, this kind of Sila is similar to one of the four factors of stream entry in Anguttara Nikaya X.92, Vera Sutta: "He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, it is 'identical to' rather than 'similar to'. May you be happy at your present moment. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44931 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Tep, Feeling very drowsy, must go to bed now. Metta, Sukinder -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sukin, Tep and all members who are interested in this thread, :-)) I believe that it is physical drowsiness. Not all drowsiness are accompanied by thina and middha or sloth and torpor. Hmmm.. I am putting confusing things for non-Pali learners. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I tasted the pudding, :-)). And it is sweet. I am at the present of sweet. :-)) 44932 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:08am Subject: Dhamma Thread (339) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) There is another group of kamma. While the above 4 kamma are concerned with their power of giving rise to effect, this another group of kamma is concerned with seniority or serialness of all the existing kamma. They are called paakadaana pariyaaya kamma. Paaka means 'vipaka' or results. Daana means 'give' 'offer'. Pariyaaya means 'turn' 'serialness' 'seniority'. This means that if there is 1 other numbers like 5,8,2,9,7,4 cannot be the first to come. There are 4 kamma in this group of kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma or 'heavy kamma' 2. asanna kamma or 'repeatedly-perceiving kamma' 3. acinna kamma or 'practised kamma or chronic kamma' 4. katattaa kamma or 'olden kamma' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44933 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding hasituppada Dear Friends, A Buddha is born in the world to rediscover a great truth. The truth of dukkha,its cause, its cessation and the path that leads to its cessation. The Gotama Buddha was the last and his Dhamma is what we follow. A Buddha is never born in any other World other than the human World. His teachings were in the form of discourses to his disciples. While most of his discourses to his disciples were explaining the Dhamma by way of instructions, the discourses he made to lay followers were to explain different aspects of Dhamma, or answer questions posed by the lay followers. His most important discourse was the Dhammachakkapavattana Sutta. It was followed by the next important Anattalakkhana Sutta. They were also his first two discourses made to the five ascetics who became his first five disciples. The Lord Buddha instructed his disciples to meditate. And the meditation he taught had two distinct features. One was to calm the mind and purify it through jhana absorptions, and the other to delve into deeper levels of knowledge, the insight meditation. The insight meditation is a unique system discovered by the Lord. It is the directing of a purified and calm mind to experience impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and no-self. Having attained the first , second , third and the forth Jhana, through Anapanasati , the ascetic Siddhartha, directed his absolutely calm and purified mind to see his own past births and then the passing away of beings and their rebirth, and then to see Dukkha etc. and attained the sublime state of a Buddha. "………….I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives……………" ( Mahasaccaka Sutta MN 36). His firs 61 disciples were sent in different directions to spread his teaching. His teachings given to his disciples are in the Sutta Pitaka. It is this teachings that he gave his disciples to follow and find release from the cycle of birth and death in the Samsara. There is no other dhamma other than that in the Sutta Pitaka, which provides clear and precise instructions to practice meditation. All his teachings were a direction to Nibbana. Mahasatipanna Sutta is the discourse he made to his disciples and all those who were to follow, in the form of instructions for meditation. That is the one and only way , to Nibbana. Abhidhamma was the higher teachings, which he did not give to his disciples. It was made to the Devas, in celestial planes, who had well developed minds, but yet were not able to meditate in those planes. It is only those in a few celestial planes who attained Nibbana after death. Other Devas if they still have to attain further stages of stream entry may have to be reborn in the human world. Even the Buddha came from a Deva (tavatimsa) world to the human world to attain enlightenment. Abhidhamma is held in great sanctity in Buddhist Countries. Certain kings had the Abhidhamma written on gold slabs and enshrined in Dagabos- the huge white domes, along with the relics of the Buddha to be worshipped by the followers of his teachings. The Abhidhamma is sacred in par with the Sacred relics of the Great Buddha. In Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, the lay followers and Samaneras before their higher Ordination did not read the Abhidhamma. It is now that the higher teachings are within reach of any one. Buddhism, is the teachings of the Buddha called after his name. His teachings were first to his disciples, and then to his other followers. If you are not following the Sutta Pitaka and accept and practice meditation according to the instructions in the Suttas to attain Nibbana in this life or another, you are not a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha. It is very good to read and understand the Abhidhamma. I had my introduction to Abhidhamma reading Mme Nina Van Gorkum's Abhidhamma in Daily Life. I am very grateful to her . Thereafter I read The Manual of Abhidhamma by Narada Maha Thera. But Abhidhamma will not be my manual for Meditation. The danger in trying to propagate Abhidhamma as the Buddha's primary teaching, and his Discourses in the Sutta as a mere secondary reading material to support what is in the Abhidhamma is a contradiction of what Buddha said in Maha Satipattana Sutta. "…………In this way he remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves, or externally on mental qualities in & of themselves, or both internally & externally on mental qualities in & of themselves. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to mental qualities, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to mental qualities, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to mental qualities. Or his mindfulness that 'There are mental qualities' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths... "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- nonreturn. "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- nonreturn. "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance – non return. "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." ( Maha Satipattana Sutta). Taking Abhidhamma to meditate on " a thing called the reality of the instance", can mislead and confuse a Buddhist who takes refuge in Buddha Dhamma and Sangha. Satipattana does not arise as a miracle from time to time, it is the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. Sati, has to be cultivated being mindful of one's actions, words and thoughts as far as one can every day, until it becomes the normal way of living. It is very difficult to do following a lay life. "……."Before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'The household life is crowded, a dusty road. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn't easy, living in a home, to lead the holy life that is totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell. What if I, having shaved off my hair & beard and putting on the ochre robe, were to go forth from the home life into homelessness……." ( Mahasaccaka Sutta) Pardon me me if I were to hurt any ones feelings, by posting this, With metta, Hasituppada ______________________________________________________________ > > Metta, > > Sukinder > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Sukin, Tep and all members who are interested in this thread, > > :-)) > > I believe that it is physical drowsiness. Not all drowsiness are > accompanied by thina and middha or sloth and torpor. Hmmm.. I am > putting confusing things for non-Pali learners. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: I tasted the pudding, :-)). And it is sweet. I am at the present > of sweet. :-)) 44934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - the word should. nilovg Hi Sarah and Dan, The *should* is just a quote from the Visuddhimagga and I do not like to change quotes. I do not stumble over this *should*, though. It also depends on the tone, soft or loud, you use, don't you think? Just as you say to Tep: This is not a trap. Nina. op 29-04-2005 11:07 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be >>> encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the >>> exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, >>> then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense >>> of urgency. >> >> "Should be encouraged" and "should stimulate it by reviewing" sound an >> awful lot like instructions, do they not? >> >> "Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these >> things are done, these things result." In the first case, there is a >> sense of "I must do; I am doing"--moha; in the latter case, there is a >> sense of "These results arose from these conditions"--amoha. "Shoulds" >> are dangerous traps. > .... > S: Well said. 44935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results nilovg Hi Tep, op 29-04-2005 13:16 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Further, based on the > Paramattha dhamma principles, one cannot predict, "make" > or "maintain" these precious moments. It sounds like a hopeless > practice to me when you cannot be sure when sati may arise, or > whether it may arise -- not unlike a casino game. So do you keep on > playing this 'random game' until you win or die? N: Patience is needed for any kind of mental development. Also viriya, which makes one courageous like a hero. Never giving up, not becoming disheartened, but at the same time there is more understanding that sati needs many different conditions for its arising. Think of all the other sobhana cetasikas we learn in the Visuddhimagga. They all have their functions and support the kusala citta with paññaa, just for that one moment. Confidence, hiri, ottappa (shrinking back from akusala), chanda, wish-to-do, alobha, detachment, all of them are essential. Sati falls away immediately together with the kusala citta and all the other sobhana cetasikas, but it is accumulated so that it can arise again. Very gradually, but that is all right. Here the patience comes in. Nina. 44936 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:53pm Subject: Vipassana and Right View christine_fo... Hello all, A few reflections: isn't 'Right View' about 'what it is' that one "sees" ... the 'kind' of "seeing" that we do ... the seeing of action and result ... the 'seeing' of processes and how they come and go ... a seeing of what 'this' experience is, and how it transforms into the next ... Investigation is the heart of the practice ... buddhist vipassana is not a stand-alone technique ... it is an investigation ... it is the "investigation of phenomena" - it is one of the 7 factors of awakening ... Not "Who Am *I*?" but rather "What is this?" ... how does it arise? .. and, how does it cease? metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 44937 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - the word should. lbidd2 Nina: "Hi Sarah and Dan, The *should* is just a quote from the Visuddhimagga and I do not like to change quotes. I do not stumble over this *should*, though." Hi Nina, The "should" concept conditions a prompted consciousness. Larry 44938 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - the word should. sarahprocter... Hi Nina, (Dan, Larry) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Dan, > The *should* is just a quote from the Visuddhimagga and I do not like to > change quotes. > I do not stumble over this *should*, though. It also depends on the > tone, > soft or loud, you use, don't you think? Just as you say to Tep: *shouldn't* take this to imply there cannot be any development of right > view > in the meantime.> This is not a trap. ... I didn't read (or agree with) Dan's comments as suggesting there was anything wrong with the text or that anything should be changed. The trap referred to is any wrong view we have when we read the texts (or anything else for that matter). That's why he pointed out how it *should* and *should not* be understood, which I liked.....LIke the passages he gave before on right and wrong effort. Dashing out...(thinking of Num always running....) Metta, Sarah ========= 44939 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding buddhistmedi... Dear Hasituppada (Htoo, Sukinder and interested DSG members) - I have found interesting and valuable background information about Buddhism from your message # 44933. First of all, I want to summarize some main points of this message and then make a few remarks. I'll be glad to see your reply. Hasituppada's Main Points (for My Discussion Purpose) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. The Lord Buddha instructed his disciples to meditate. And the meditation he taught had two distinct features. One was to calm the mind and purify it through jhana absorptions, and the other to delve into deeper levels of knowledge, the insight meditation. 2. Having attained the first , second , third and the forth Jhana, through Anapanasati , the ascetic Siddhartha, directed his absolutely calm and purified mind to see his own past births and then the passing away of beings and their rebirth, and then to see Dukkha etc. and attained the sublime state of a Buddha. 3. All his teachings were a direction to Nibbana. Mahasatipanna Sutta is the discourse he made to his disciples and all those who were to follow, in the form of instructions for meditation. That is the one and only way, to Nibbana. Satipattana does not arise as a miracle from time to time, it is the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. Sati, has to be cultivated being mindful of one's actions, words and thoughts as far as one can every day, until it becomes the normal way of living. It is very difficult to do following a lay life. 4. If you are not following the Sutta Pitaka and accept and practice meditation according to the instructions in the Suttas to attain Nibbana in this life or another, you are not a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha. 5. 'The household life is crowded, a dusty road. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn't easy, living in a home, to lead the holy life that is totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell. What if I, having shaved off my hair & beard and putting on the ochre robe, were to go forth from the home life into homelessness…' Tep's Remarks & Questions ----------------------------------------- 1. You emphasize the jhana attainments as the basis for insight knowledge development. But there are a few suttas that acknowledge some Arahants who experienced Nibbana by direct vipassana bhavana (without jhana absorptions to begin with). According to your study of Buddhism, can vipassana-nana be directly developed without jhana as the supporting condition? I have heard several smart people suggesting that the samadhi through Buddhanassati or loving kindness, is sufficient as the supporting condition for vipassana-nana. What is your view on this matter? 2. Anapanasati is capable of inducing the 4th jhana. Why is this meditation scheme so powerful? How could breathing as the meditation object be more effective than, say, contemplation of feeling or contemplation of the 4 Noble Truths? Or, am I not comparing apples to apples? 3. The belief that "Sati has to be cultivated being mindful of one's actions" has been criticized by the Abhidhamma believers as a 'wrong view' that is driven by "lobha" and a "self " (who wants to control the end result). How would you respond to them? 4. Can someone who is not "a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha" be able to reach Nibbana only by means of the Higher Dhamma (Abhidhamma)? They say it is more direct than using the method of the true follower. 5. I have no doubt whatsoever that the homelessness is the most direct way to Nibbana for people who are ready for letting go of almost anything. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > A Buddha is born in the world to rediscover a great truth. The > truth of dukkha,its cause, its cessation and the path that leads to > its cessation. The Gotama Buddha was the last and his Dhamma is > what we follow. A Buddha is never born in any other World other > than the human World. His teachings were in the form of discourses > to his disciples. While most of his discourses to his disciples > were explaining the Dhamma by way of instructions, the discourses > he made to lay followers were to explain different aspects of > Dhamma, or answer questions posed by the lay followers. > His most important discourse was the Dhammachakkapavattana Sutta. > It was followed by the next important Anattalakkhana Sutta. They > were also his first two discourses made to the five ascetics who > became his first five disciples. The Lord Buddha instructed his > disciples to meditate. And the meditation he taught had two > distinct features. One was to calm the mind and purify it through > jhana absorptions, and the other to delve into deeper levels of > knowledge, the insight meditation. 44940 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:52pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: Dear Friends, A Buddha is born in the world to rediscover a great truth. The truth of dukkha,its cause, its cessation and the path that leads to its cessation. The Gotama Buddha was the last ( Mahasaccaka Sutta) Pardon me me if I were to hurt any ones feelings, by posting this, With metta, Hasituppada -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Hasituppada, More tasteful pudding! You did not hurt anyone at all. Aataapii, sampajaano, satimaa -- viriya, panna, sati or sati, viriya, panna or mindfulness, effort, wisdom. These 3 are main constituents. To reach these 3 constituents lot, one has to be carried by saddha initially. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I sit, I stand, I walk, I lie down. I move in between. What is constant is my breathing. It is sign of life. If life is to be pure, breathing has to be pure. For breathing to be pure, it should be seen through-out. To see through out breathing effort, mindfulness and wisdom are all needed. Hmmmm... Accumulate, accumulate, accumulate, right conditions, right amount, right dose, right level of paramii... Mediate Ananda, mediate. This is our instruction to you. Meditate Cunda, mediate. This is our instruction to you. Or else you will regret later. Htoo 44941 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:54pm Subject: Accumulations { was Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..} buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Hasituppada, Sarah, Htoo, and other DSG members) - I have been waiting for the right moment to ask you to compare the accmulation of Sati to the latent tendency of anusayas. > N: Sati falls away immediately together with the kusala citta > and all the other sobhana cetasikas, but it is accumulated so that > it can arise again. Very gradually, but that is all right. > Here the patience comes in. T: I think I understand it correctly that sati arises because of conditions and it passes away without any trace, because it is impermanent - like all sankhata dhammas. However, when you wrote that sati was "accumulated so that it can arise again", it is confusing. Why? Because it sounds like the same sati does not go away -- it only gets stored somewhere and will be jumping out again, when conditions are right. Isn't that the same as saying sati is permanent? Same question applies to anusayas -- this kind of kilesa doesn't even arise, but they refuse to go away (they lie hidden somewhere?). Where did they come from? Are they a " self " in the sense that they get carried along from one life to another, to another, ... ? Thank you for your unlimited metta (this quality used to belong to Htoo! Now he only writes "With respect"). Respectfully, Tep ============ ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 29-04-2005 13:16 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > 44942 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:29pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding htootintnaing Dear Tep, Hasituppada, Sukin, and All, :-)) :-)) :-)) I have to smile more that that. :-)) :-)) :-)) Very good discussions. There are many points. Dear Tep, this is a point why I once put you to visit DSG again. You are a good questions maker. Let us see your questions and my answers. Hasituppada will answer separately and Sukin, who is the original proposer will also answer on his course. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Dear Hasituppada (Htoo, Sukinder and interested DSG members) - I have found interesting and valuable background information about Buddhism from your message # 44933. First of all, I want to summarize some main points of this message and then make a few remarks. I'll be glad to see your reply. Hasituppada's Main Points (for My Discussion Purpose) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary of Hasituppada's main points: 1. The Lord Buddha instructed his disciples to meditate. [Of course;-- Htoo--] And the meditation he taught had two distinct features [2 distinct features? Seeing from outside?;--asked by Htoo--]. One was to calm the mind and purify it through jhana absorptions, and the other to delve into deeper levels of knowledge, the insight meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a hot spot. Once I put this indirectly into triplegem forum and triplegem became very busy. So busy that some members were moderated again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary of Hasituppada's main points: 2. Having attained the first , second , third and the forth Jhana, through Anapanasati , the ascetic Siddhartha, directed his absolutely calm and purified mind to see his own past births and then the passing away of beings and their rebirth, and then to see Dukkha etc. and attained the sublime state of a Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Every arahat, including Sammasambuddha, paccekabuddha, aggasavaka has to go through satipatthana. The above mentioned way was what The Buddha Gotama passed through and this is not for every single arahat. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary of Hasituppada's main points: 3. All his teachings were a direction to Nibbana. Mahasatipanna Sutta is the discourse he made to his disciples and all those who were to follow, in the form of instructions for meditation. That is the one and only way, to Nibbana. Satipattana does not arise as a miracle from time to time, it is the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. Sati, has to be cultivated being mindful of one's actions, words and thoughts as far as one can every day, until it becomes the normal way of living. It is very difficult to do following a lay life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good points, Hasituppada. Thanks Tep for your summary as you always do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary of Hasituppada's main points. 4. If you are not following the Sutta Pitaka and accept and practice meditation according to the instructions in the Suttas to attain Nibbana in this life or another, you are not a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not agree Hasituppada. What do you think, Tep? The Buddha said, 'Do not kill'. One lay follower listen and does not kill any being. I think he is a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary of Hasituppada's main points: 5. 'The household life is crowded, a dusty road. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn't easy, living in a home, to lead the holy life that is totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell. What if I, having shaved off my hair & beard and putting on the ochre robe, were to go forth from the home life into homelessness…' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is what I want to do. But it is dullabha dhamma. Bhikkhu's life or monkhood is hard to attain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Remarks & Questions ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. You emphasize the jhana attainments as the basis for insight knowledge development. But there are a few suttas that acknowledge some Arahants who experienced Nibbana by direct vipassana bhavana (without jhana absorptions to begin with). According to your study of Buddhism, can vipassana-nana be directly developed without jhana as the supporting condition? I have heard several smart people suggesting that the samadhi through Buddhanassati or loving kindness, is sufficient as the supporting condition for vipassana-nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hasituppada will answer. Tep already know my answer. But I am not a smart people or person. Anyway, ''I WILL VERY STRONGLY SAY THAT IF A MIND IS TAKING JHANA OBJECT THAT MIND IS NOT TAKING ANICCA (anicca-homed dhamma like nama or rupa) AS ITS OBJECT. IF A MIND IS TAKING NAMA OR RUPA AS ITS OBJECT, THAT MIND IS NOT RUPA JHANA.'' [HTOO] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep question continued: What is your view on this matter? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hasituppada will answer.Tep, you already know my answer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 2. Anapanasati is capable of inducing the 4th jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not side-tracking. But aanaapaanasati is not the only meditation to attain 4th jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question continued: Why is this meditation scheme so powerful? How could breathing as the meditation object be more effective than, say, contemplation of feeling or contemplation of the 4 Noble Truths? Or, am I not comparing apples to apples? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In terms of what? you mean 'so powerful'. Kaaya or vedana or citta or dhamma all are effective and powerful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 3. The belief that "Sati has to be cultivated being mindful of one's actions" has been criticized by the Abhidhamma believers as a 'wrong view' that is driven by "lobha" and a "self " (who wants to control the end result). How would you respond to them? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) There are many many defenders. They will arise and explain why this is that and why that is this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 4. Can someone who is not "a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha" be able to reach Nibbana only by means of the Higher Dhamma (Abhidhamma)? They say it is more direct than using the method of the true follower. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Whether one is a disciple of The Buddha or not, if he is following satipatthana and if there are right conditions, he will definitely REACH NIBBANA. Otherwise in Sunna Kappa, there would not be any paccekabuddhas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 5. I have no doubt whatsoever that the homelessness is the most direct way to Nibbana for people who are ready for letting go of almost anything. Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will be seeing who will be on the road. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Do not think colourful. 44943 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: Vipassana and Right View htootintnaing Hello all, A few reflections: isn't 'Right View' about 'what it is' that one "sees" ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hello Christine, yes. Right view is 'rightly seeing of what it is'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: the 'kind' of "seeing" that we do ... the seeing of action and result ... the 'seeing' of processes and how they come and go ... a seeing of what 'this' experience is, and how it transforms into the next ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: View = how something is seen Right view = how something is rightly see. This already included in 'investigation of phenomena'. Without investigation, things cannot be rightly seen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: Investigation is the heart of the practice ... buddhist vipassana is not a stand-alone technique ... it is an investigation ... it is the "investigation of phenomena" - it is one of the 7 factors of awakening ... Not "Who Am *I*?" but rather "What is this?" ... how does it arise? .. and, how does it cease? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Wow..!! Very beautiful reflections. Yes. It is the heart of Buddhism. It is the heart of vipassana. It is the heart of way leading to Path. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I do not think I have time. :-)) I may be busy in next few months. But I do not assume it is the trouble. But :-)) suffering. 44944 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Causes of right Awareness...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Origination & Ceasing of the Four Objects of Reference: Buddha once said: Arising of Nutriment induces emergence of Body. Ceasing of Nutriment induces passing away of Body. Arising of Contact induces emergence of Feeling. Ceasing of Contact induces passing away of Feeling. Arising of Naming-&-forming induces emergence of Mind. Ceasing of Naming-&-forming induces passing away of Mind. Arising of Attention induces emergence of Phenomena. Ceasing of Attention induces passing away of Phenomena. _______________________________________________________ Therefore is considering, contemplating, analyzing, and recollecting: Body merely as transient forms, grown on food; Feeling only as passing emotions, arised from contact; Mind just as changing moods, emerged from name-&-form; Phenomena as momentary mental states, created by attention... repeatedly, thoroughly, and completely, called initiating & developing the four foundations of Awareness, which - in itself - is the mental treasure par excellence, leading steadily straight to the Deathless Element... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya V 184 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html PS: Tomorrow is Observance Uposatha day. May many gain much. Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 44945 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding kenhowardau Dear Htoo (Hasituppada and Tep), You wrote: --------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary of Hasituppada's main points: 1. The Lord Buddha instructed his disciples to meditate. [Of course;- -Htoo--] And the meditation he taught had two distinct features [2 distinct features? Seeing from outside?;--asked by Htoo--]. One was to calm the mind and purify it through jhana absorptions, and the other to delve into deeper levels of knowledge, the insight meditation. .............. Htoo: This is a hot spot. Once I put this indirectly into triplegem forum and triplegem became very busy. So busy that some members were moderated again. ---------------------------------------------------- I must be missing something here. Point 1 simply says the Buddha taught two kinds of mental development - samatha and vipassana. How is that a hot spot? Reading further down, however, I can see a potentially very hot spot: ---------------------------------------- Htoo: > Tep's summary of Hasituppada's main points: 3. All his teachings were a direction to Nibbana. Mahasatipanna Sutta is the discourse he made to his disciples and all those who were to follow, in the form of instructions for meditation. That is the one and only way, to Nibbana. Satipattana does not arise as a miracle from time to time, it is the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. Sati, has to be cultivated being mindful of one's actions, words and thoughts as far as one can every day, until it becomes the normal way of living. It is very difficult to do following a lay life. ............ Htoo: Good points, Hasituppada. Thanks Tep for your summary as you always do. ---------------------------------------- The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. The last time you and I conversed, you acknowledged the difference and you congratulated me on the way I had explained it. What has happened since then? Have you gone back to what Amara once called, "hybrid Dhamma?" Hasituppada and Tep seem to think the practice of satipatthana has concepts (walking, talking, eating etc.) as its objects. The practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two. Enlightenment is a synonym for wisdom - understanding. That is the way taught by the Buddha. Forgive me for lecturing you, Htoo, but you should be helping Hasituppada and Tep to understand the Dhamma (by far the most difficult and profound of all teachings): you should not be encouraging pointless ritualistic shortcuts. Is that hot enough for you? :-) Ken H 44946 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:17am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James Thanks for waiting. I'll try to keep my comments shorter, as you have. Easier said than done. You raise a lot of interesting and important points.¡¡ > James: Phil, I think you still don't get it as to why I don't jibe > with the Abhidhamma. It is not that there are particular things about > it which "bug" me; I don't really see the point to the entire thing. > Is the Abhidhamma necessary for enlightenment? Even those who really > like the Abhidhamma have to admit that: No, the Abhidhamma isn't > necessary for enlightenment. So then, I don't feel it necessary to > spend my time on something that isn't necessary. It's a mind trip, a > thinker's passion, a brain doodle- what purpose does it serve? Ph: Necesary for enlightenment - I don't know. I don't think beyond what is necessary for this ignorant worldling, and that is penetrating the cloud of concepts that sweep me away all day and get to the reality. (Along with sila and dana) I don't often think about enlightenment - it seems lifetimes away. Perhaps I should think about it more often. One thing for sure- I had no real understanding whatsoever of anatta until I came across Abhidhamma and now I have more. That is because it is by understanding dhammas that anatta is revealed. I used to think anatta was something that I could grasp and understand and apply to understanding reality. In fact, anatta is revealed when we understand dhamma and the conditions that cause them to rise and fall. Or begins to be revealed. Glimpses of it. I guess you get your glimpses of anatta in other ways. Perhaps Abhidhamma isn't necessary for enlightenment, for some people. But why would the Buddha have taught three baskets of Dhamma? (Or, if you don't believe Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word, why would it come to have been included in the Triple Basket? Our of the intellectual greed of the Sangha? That sounds like a naughty view.) A brain doodle - good term! Yes, there is this danger. The intellectual effort of wrapping one's brain around Abhidhamma concepts could be playing with fire. What if instead of coming closer to penetrating realities I am just building deeper layers of thinking? I have thought about that - more thinking. One thing that helps is that I don't press hard to understand difficult points. I kind of toss it up (so to speak) and offer it to understanding, but if understanding doesn't swoop down and grab it I let it fall. I have learned that the point of all the fine details is not academic - the point is to condition a return to the present moment. That's the point, in theory, at least. But how often does it do that? That's another condition at work that can't be controlled. J: > I am a > Buddhist in the yogic, practice tradition: the way Theravada was > before the advent of the Abhidhamma and the arrival of Buddhaghosa. > Read the letter from B. Bodhi he wrote to this list- the suttas are > the way of practice, the Abhidhamma and (some) commentaries are the > way of theorizing. Ph: I don't want to play Bodhiball, but in the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, which he translated and edited, the venerable says this amoung many other words of praise re Abhidhamma: "This analysis of mind is not motivated by theoretical curiosity but by the overriding practical aim of the Buddha's teaching, the attainment of deliverance from suffering. Since the Buddha traces suffering to our tainted attitudes - a mental orientation rooted in greed, hatred and delusion - the Abhidhamma's phenemonological psychology also takes on the character of a psychological ethics, understanding the term "ethics" not in the narrow sense of a code of morality but as a complete guide to noble living and mental purification." It really is very practical - it's about every moment of daily life - though as you say for one with wrong understanding it could be all about intellectual conceit. Right understanding comes and goes, moment by moment. When we are studying or meditating or whatever, moments of understanding alternate with moments of conceit, dosa, lobha. You know this to be true, I¡¯m sure. That¡¯s why Abhidhamma is so important. It helps us to develop an understanding of ephemeral mind moments. I trust you know why that is important. > Phil: I think there is no way to fully benefit from Abhidhamma (and > therefore the Buddha's teaching in general, in my opinion) if we > insist on understanding everything before we believe in it. > > James: The Buddha invited everyone to test for themselves as to what > he was teaching was true or not; he didn't ask anyone to believe him > based on faith. (And he wouldn't ask anyone to *believe* there are 17 > cittas during every rise and fall of rupa; if he taught this, it would > have to be possible to know this for oneself.) Ph: There is a tradition in Dhamma of believing what we are not yet capable of understanding. Here is B. Bodhi again, talking about the term dhammanijjhaanakkhanti, which is ¡°used to signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to the understanding¡it is a suspension of disbelief born of trust.¡± There is also a sutta about "protecting the truth" in which the Buddha tells us we can believe something without renouncing the right to later say that it isn't true. (I can¡¯t find it §¢ can anyone help?) As for my own thoughts on this topic, I wonder - can beginners know nibanna without simply accepting that it is possible to extinguish the fires? Only a very, very very select few (arahants) will expereince this for themselves. (I may have that wrong - I guess there is an experience of nibanna at every stage of enlightenment. That still eliminates all but the very rare mind.) The rest of us must believe it as taught and move towards it lifetime by lifetime. It is not necessary to understand nibbana in order to believe in its importance. The same goes for knowing cittas to the degree that we know the rise and fall of cittas in fine detail, directly. It isn't necessary to know cittas in fine detail to benefit from Abhidhamma. The more we know the better, if it is right understanding that rises due to conditions. We have to accept our limits. If we don¡¯t, it will be all about self struggling to survive, wrapped in Dhamma. Just some feeble thoughts there. > Phil: There is a middle way there, of course. If I wasn't experiencing > some moments of real understanding of and benefits from Abhidhamma by > now, it would be foolish to keep believing in the not-yet- understandable. > > James: I don't know what benefits you have been getting from your > Abhidhamma studies. As I read between the lines, I see some negative > things in your life: increased alienation from your wife, being > "spaced out" quite often, inability to write creatively, and quick outbursts of anger and frustration. Ph: Some elements of truth in what you say on some points and less on others. I will abstain from launching into a mini-novel about Phil. And of course, while the Buddha does urge us to reflect on accumulated tendencies now and then, what is really important is what is happening right now. The Phil who was alienated from Naomi last night and the Phil who was not alienated from Naomi last night no longer exist, nothing but fleeting khandas. Understanding that will make me less likely to hold on to worries, angers, regrets, and I will be more and more present in the moment, and less alienated. The creative writing is a problem. I¡¯ve posted about that before. Writing fiction pales in comparison with studying Dhamma. But I do hope conditions arise that allow me to throw myself into writing again. I have a talent for it, a talent that could be developed to help others. (I always write stories about healing.) Thanks for the warning, though. I know it comes from your kindness. I will keep it in mind, no doubt, the way I do with many things you say in your inimitable way! >Now, nobody's perfect, but the > goal of dhamma practice is to become happier and more peaceful, to get > along better with others, and to understand yourself more- until >ultimately reaching liberation. Ph: This is wrong, James. The goal of Dhamma practice is to reach liberation through detachment, eradication of defilements, etc. That is the only goal. Happiness and being peaceful may (I dare say will probably) result more often as we progress, but they are not goals. This misconception is exactly why Dhamma is wasted in the West, where it is often taken as a feelgood religion. I think people can benefit from Dhamma in a superficial, therapeutic way by doing things like intentionally generating metta, and perhaps the Buddha thought of this. He is often compared to a physician treating different patients in different ways. People who use Dhamma as a kind of therapy may very well be happier, and that is good. But they will be moving further rather than closer to true liberation. When it comes to the ultimate goal of Dhamma practice if we aim at happiness and peace of mind there is no way to avoid turning Dhamma into a self-comforting exercise. I think this is why we often hear of ¡°courage¡± at DSG. It takes courage to face realities without turning to comforting (but ultimately misleading if done by people of conventional insight i.e all of us here) practices such as intentionally generating metta for oneself first, then others etc. I quoted it to Lisa the other day, but I love the sutta about the lotus (SN 22.94): ¡°Bhikkhus, just as a blue, red or white lotus is born in the water and grows up in the water, but having risen up above the water, it stands unsullied by the water, so too the Tathagata was born in the world and grew up in the world, but having overcome the world, he dwells unsullied by the world.¡± The danger in reading conventionally-worded suttas (ie most suttas) is that we interpret them the way we like, but this sutta says to me that it is by experiencing all kinds of akusala (the water, the world) that we grow to become purified. I think many modern branches of Buddhism seek to avoid unwholesome states, to avoid unpleasant feelings. I think of the venerable who posted here last winter, whose meditation technique seemed to be about recognizing discomfort and shifting skillfully away from it. And smiling. I know from the time I spent in general Buddhist forums that feelgood practices dominate. Just try to talk about defilements in a North American Buddhist forum and see how you get labeled! Too bad. But there is nothing more important than knowing our defilements. It is far,¡¡far more important than being happy and peaceful. There is no way to be happy and peaceful, truly happy and peaceful without taking steps towards liberation first, and liberation lies in knowing the truth about ourselves and the truth ain¡¯t pretty. Middle way, of course. As you said, the Buddha taught the middle way to discourage people from being excessive in mortifications, etc. And I have faith that happiness and peace of mind will arise more often §¢ but they are not goals. That is wrong. So I would re- order the goals you wrote above. Know more about ourselves, first, and then if there is happiness, there is happiness. > It seems to me that your Abhidhamma > studies are making you live in your mind rather than live in the world. Ph: See above. You¡¯re right that there is a danger of getting trapped into thinking, thinking, thinking. But we¡¯re always thniking thinking thinking, aren¡¯t we? Better to be thinking thinking thinking about Dhamma topics rather than baseball or lunch or Angeline Jolie in a nurse¡¯s uniform spanking my bad, bad bottom. (oops) Well, as said above the purpose of all this thinking is to condition better understanding of the present moment. That¡¯s why Kh Sujin is such a helpful Dhamma friend because she is always reminding people to get back to what is happening now. She¡¯s not the only one. >>Phil: One thing you could do to help me, if you're concenred, is tell me more about how mindfulness arises in your daily life. yourself. >>James: Okay, I will tell you some about my personal life; however, I am not telling you this to "impress" you. I will share with you since you share with me. Ph: Well, I *was* impressed. It sounds like you have a sound approach to Dhamma in daily life. I had no way of knowing since you usually just insist on the Buddha¡¯s word and don¡¯t share your own daily life insights. Thanks! (I also appreciated your story about the cat. You are a kind-hearted man, that's for sure. I like the picture of you and Simon, despite the satanic red eyes! Well, I failed to keep it short. Take your time with any reply you'd like to make, and I'll get back to you next week. Metta, Phil 44947 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:11am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) christine_fo... Hello Phi, James, and all, Thank you both for your discussion - you both make good points in such a courteous way that it is enjoyable and stimulating to read. Phil - you may have been thinking of this sutta ... Cankii Sutta MN 95 "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn095.html metta and peace, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > <<>> Ph: There is a tradition in Dhamma of believing what we are not > yet capable of understanding. > Here is B. Bodhi again, talking about the term > dhammanijjhaanakkhanti, which is ¡°used to signify the > intellectual > acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to the > understanding¡it is a suspension of disbelief born of trust.¡± > There is also a sutta about "protecting the truth" in which the > Buddha tells us we can believe something without renouncing the > right to later say that it isn't true. (I can¡¯t find it §¢ can > anyone help?) <<>> >> Metta, > Phil 44948 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding hasituppada Dear Tep Your question Tep, 1. You emphasize the jhana attainments as the basis for insight knowledge development. But there are a few suttas that acknowledge some Arahants who experienced Nibbana by direct vipassana bhavana (without jhana absorptions to begin with). According to your study of Buddhism, can vipassana-nana be directly developed without jhana as the supporting condition? I have heard several smart people suggesting that the samadhi through Buddhanassati or loving kindness, is sufficient as the supporting condition for vipassana- nana. What is your view on this matter? _____________________________________________________________________ My modest attempt to answer: This question I had asked from my teachers and some Monks. I think, and it seems, that there are no Suttas in which the Buddha had said that one can attain Nibbana or as a matter of that stream entry by "dry" ( a word I don't like to use to qualify vipassana) insight. However it appears that there is what is called instant(kshanika) Samadhi. Not spoken of by the Buddha, but alluded to by him, remembering what happened to him as a child under the red apple tree, when he was making his final attempt as Siddhartha to meditate to become enlightened (Mahasaccaka Sutta). Deep Samadhi is itself difficult, at least for some, to attain. But once attained it is easy to get into a deep Samadhi, merely by sitting comfortably, stopping all what you are doing, keeping your upper torso erect, closing your eyes and concentrating on your breath. Try it and I am sure you will experience it for your self. Do not bother about concepts and non-concepts, just the "breath". What I think, and I think Htoo will, understand me,is that Meditation is an all inclusive practice. That is to say that the word "Bhavana" which means, cultivation of the mind, includes both Samata and Vipassana. Therefore each time one speaks of Bhavana there is no need to say First "samata" and then "vipassana" as it is all inclusive. Of course there is the case of Ven Culapanthaka(?). But he may have attained deep Samadhi or even absorptions, before attaining to the state of an Arahat. Once one has attained Jhana absorptions there is a process of practicing it from going and coming off each absorbtion. Once trained, you can get to a Jhana aborption and come off each of it in a matter of minutes. I think Htoo has more Bhavana experience than I have and will understand, that there are two ways of proceeding to Jhana absorbtions. One is to attain the First ( after setting a time) and come down from it, and then got to the second. Then come down from the Second to the First and from the first to Samadhi, and normal breath,(after setting a time) and so on to the third and the forth. And the other is to go on sitting, until you attain the forth Jhana. There will of course be gaps, as each jahana state has a tendency to fall away by itself, and then the yogi knows that the first jhana is over and concentrates on the breath for the next, which pushes him to the second and so on. That may be a long sitting. I do not personally believe that Vipassana can be developed, without a mind purified by Jhana absorbtions. Vipassana Naanas arise as you go on meditating; some times you may be aware of it, and some times you may not. These are my humble opinions, without pretending to be a specialist or a smart guy. Tep, there are two types of Jhana absorbtions, one is the Samatha Jhana absorption that starts with Anapana Sati ( or kasina) and then coming out of it after the forth absorption sit or continue Vipassana. In vipassana, use all objects, breath, sound, smell etc. to see the tri lakkhana, or merely say anicca as each object appears….Then do one of the meditations, like the asubha, dhatu- manasikara,Buddhanusati, Dhammanussati etc. You will still have your breath to hold onto…but after one of the meditations, say on asubha you will be absorbed into another Jhana, a vipassana jhana, which is more subtle and satisfying, comfortable and joyous(piti). Then you have shifted you concentration from the breath to the "emptiness". I will stop this here and get on to your Second point in another post, lest this becomes too long. With metta, Hasituppada. 44949 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:35am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi Christine > Cankii Sutta MN 95 > "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the > truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master > Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." > "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite > conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To > this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To > this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the > safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the > truth. Thanks. That's the one. I'm not sure it's relavant now that I look at it. Yes, I guess it is. It might seem difficult to have conviction about something as evasive as understanding Abhidhamma. But I think without some kind of conviction, we won't get anywhere. The above sutta helps us with that. Metta, Phil p.s I've enjoyed your participation in the recorded talks I've been listening to, Christine. You often bring up points that go against the grain somewhat - for example questioning why it is that we can say meditation must be done by self, while we don't say that about Dhamma study. Or why we might be criticized for saying we want to try to keep the precepts - things like that. 44950 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:09am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) christine_fo... Hello Phil, Thank you for your kind remarks - the face to face discussions are always so non-threatening and supportive that no-one minds in the least if someone has a different or even opposing point of view ... Maybe, one fine day, we'll talk over the table in Bangkok together? :) The first translation I quoted was Thanissaro Bhikkhu's - just for convenience, as it is a cut and past from ATI. This is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation .. much the same but using 'faith' instead of conviction, and a few other different expressions. "If a person has faith, Bhaaradvaaja, he preserves truth when he says: 'My faith is thus'; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.' In this way, Bhaaradvaaja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.' "If a person approves of something ... if he receives an oral tradition ... if he [reaches a conclusion based on] reasoned cogitation ... if he gains a reflective acceptance of a view, he preserves truth when he says; 'My reflective acceptance of a view is thus'; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.' In this way too, Bhaaradvaaja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.' metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Christine > > > Cankii Sutta MN 95 > > "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of > the > > truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master > > Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." > > "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my > conviction,' > > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite > > conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' > To > > this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. > To > > this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the > > safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the > > truth. > > > Thanks. That's the one. I'm not sure it's relavant now that I look > at it. Yes, I guess it is. It might seem difficult to have > conviction about something as evasive as understanding Abhidhamma. > But I think without some kind of conviction, we won't get anywhere. > The above sutta helps us with that. > > Metta, > Phil > > p.s I've enjoyed your participation in the recorded talks I've > been listening to, Christine. You often bring up points that go > against the grain somewhat - for example questioning why it is that > we can say meditation must be done by self, while we don't say that > about Dhamma study. Or why we might be criticized for saying we want > to try to keep the precepts - things like that. 44951 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:24am Subject: Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. matheesha333 Hi Tep,Htoo, > H: But once you realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at the > expence of your life. This happen because there is no ditthi or wrong > view, no vicikicchaa or doubt. M: I would have thought that the thought which breaks a precept has the akusala mula -lobha, dosa and moha as their cause. A sothapanna still has these to some degree. Would you say that while it is improbable that a sotthapanna would break precepts, it is not impossible? The words impossible has been used for the arahath in the suttas in regards to the precepts though. metta Matheesha 44952 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:38am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue Hi Phil, So, it has been a week already! My, how time flies. This post is rather long so I'm afraid my reply will be rather long as well. Phil: Necesary for enlightenment - I don't know. I don't think beyond what is necessary for this ignorant worldling, and that is penetrating the cloud of concepts that sweep me away all day and get to the reality. (Along with sila and dana) I don't often think about enlightenment - it seems lifetimes away. Perhaps I should think about it more often. James: I often wonder what this "cloud of concepts" or "black curtain of concepts" really means when people use it. I am guessing that this is a term that K. Sujin originated since I heard her use it on one of the tapes, and I have never come across it before in Buddhist literature. What I wonder is does it relate to the tendency to mental proliferation as taught by the Buddha, or does it relate to something else? Does it mean that all concepts are bad or that just the proliferation of concepts is bad? After all, even the Buddha used and recognized concepts. Maybe if you explain what you mean by this phrase and thinking I could more adequately respond? Phil: (Or, if you don't believe Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word, why would it come to have been included in the Triple Basket? Our of the intellectual greed of the Sangha? That sounds like a naughty view.) James: ;-)) Well, naughty or not, that is my view. I don't believe the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma, to Sariputta or to the Devas of Tusita Heaven or to anyone. All major evidence points to the Abhidhamma being a much later development. I don't accuse the Sangha of a conspiracy and cover-up, it think is more a matter of over-active mental proliferations. Phil: One thing for sure- I had no real understanding whatsoever of anatta until I came across Abhidhamma and now I have more. That is because it is by understanding dhammas that anatta is revealed. James: I don't think that the Abhidhamma automatically leads to an understanding of anatta. From my understanding, anatta is deeper than just the interplay of dhammas. Understanding the Abhidhamma can lead to a good understanding of annica (impermanence), but not necessarily anatta. Anatta can only be comprehended when the mind no longer identifies anything as being "mine" or "his" or "hers" or "theirs", etc. Phil, if you can honestly say that you no longer think in terms of "mine", "his", "hers", "theirs", or even that you think less in those terms, then you have a better understanding of anatta. But if you still think in those terms, to the same extent as you thought previously, then your understanding of anatta hasn't increased. Phil: I guess you get your glimpses of anatta in other ways. James: I only get my glimpses of anatta by realizing that nothing is worth clinging to as "me" or "mine". And these glimpses are very insignificant, let me assure you! Phil: When we are studying or meditating or whatever, moments of understanding alternate with moments of conceit, dosa, lobha. You know this to be true, I¡¯m sure. That¡¯s why Abhidhamma is so important. It helps us to develop an understanding of ephemeral mind moments. I trust you know why that is important. James: Yes, as I have stated, it is important to know anicca, and the Abhidhamma may help in that knowledge. However, the process doesn't end there. It is also important to know that anicca is suffering- and that isn't something the Abhidhamma is going to be able to teach you. The only way to know that is to examine your own mind and existence. Phil: As for my own thoughts on this topic, I wonder - can beginners know nibanna without simply accepting that it is possible to extinguish the fires? Only a very, very very select few (arahants) will expereince this for themselves. James: The difference is that at least arahants will experience nibbana. There are some things in the Abhidhamma, of which it is said only a Buddha can comprehend. I posit that the Buddha didn't teach anything that only he would be able to comprehend. That would be antithetical to his entire teaching philosophy; as he said on his death bed- he wasn't a "closed fist" teacher. Phil: Just some feeble thoughts there. James: I don't find your thoughts feeble; I find them very penetrating. Phil: Thanks for the warning, though. I know it comes from your kindness. I will keep it in mind, no doubt, the way I do with many things you say in your inimitable way! James: Just something to think about. I care for you and don't want to see you suffer needlessly. Phil: This is wrong, James. The goal of Dhamma practice is to reach liberation through detachment, eradication of defilements, etc. That is the only goal. Happiness and being peaceful may (I dare say will probably) result more often as we progress, but they are not goals. James: The Buddha taught that the dhamma is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end. If things aren't good, then it isn't the dhamma. I won't go on and on about that because it would involve sweeping generalizations. Phil: The danger in reading conventionally-worded suttas (ie most suttas) is that we interpret them the way we like, but this sutta says to me that it is by experiencing all kinds of akusala (the water, the world) that we grow to become purified. James: I don't agree with your interpretation. If this were true, then beings in hell realms could become enlightened, and that isn't possible. Phil: Know more about ourselves, first, and then if there is happiness, there is happiness. James: That's fine; but if there isn't happiness, bliss, peace of mind, one-pointedness, established mindfulness, equanimity, etc., then something is wrong. Phil: Better to be thinking thinking thinking about Dhamma topics rather than baseball or lunch or Angeline Jolie in a nurse¡¯s uniform spanking my bad, bad bottom. (oops) James: ;-)) In my opinion, thinking, thinking is just mental proliferation and harmful, even if it is about dhamma. Phil: Well, I *was* impressed. It sounds like you have a sound approach to Dhamma in daily life. James: Well, don't be too impressed. My dhamma practice isn't what it should be lately; I don't meditate at all nowadays. I am having medical problems which interfere with my practice: hypoglycemia and a rare neurological disorder which disturbs my sleep (PLMD). I hope to be getting my needed medication soon and so I will get back on track. (How's that for personal information? ;-)) Phil: Well, I failed to keep it short. Take your time with any reply you'd like to make, and I'll get back to you next week. James: I am on my spring break so it didn't take that long to reply. Take care. Metta, James 44953 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:06am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding hasituppada Dear Tep, Here is the second point you raise: 2. Anapanasati is capable of inducing the 4th jhana. Why is this meditation scheme so powerful? How could breathing as the meditation object be more effective than, say, contemplation of feeling or contemplation of the 4 Noble Truths? Or, am I not comparing apples to apples? _____________________________________________________________________ My attempt to reply: the 2nd Point. For me it is first because of the extreme Saddha we have for the Lord and his Teachings. His meditation object was the breath, we become little Buddhas (am I politically correct to say this ?) in trying to emulate him in meditation using the same object of meditation he used. Further more, the Buddha did not speak of the 40 meditation objects in the Sutta Pitaka. It may (I say may) have been included by Ven.Buddhaghosa( Tep, Please do not jump at me for saying this. I know how much respect you have for Ven.Buddhaghosa). Samatha Meditation was not an invention of the Buddha, it existed before the birth of Prince Siddhartha. I have read, that the ancient Hindu Philosophers (there were 62 different philosophies in India at the time) were "infested" by the never ending thoughts rising and falling away and that did not help them much to concentrate. Therefore they found this method of slowing down the arising and falling away of thoughts in one pointed concentration, which opened them to Jhana. Neither is Jahana absorptions Nirodha Samapatti, nor a state of death, therefore you are not absent to what is happening around you. The natural activities of the six sense organs function norlmally. You see(if your eyes are open), hear, smell, feel, taste and thoughts arise in the mind. The difference is that the mind gets gradually absorbed "into the breath" (don't keep shouting "it is a concept"!!!), little by little the breath would seem to disappear and also the sense objects around, until you come to the third Jhana, when the arammana or the object of Meditation will shift from the breath in to "space". Htoo, please stand by me…………. There also if you think of the body you will see it, otherwise the mind would seem to stand alone. Now you refer to contemplation of four foundations of mindfulness. This goes along side Anapanasati. The "breath " itself is a body, and therefore Kayanupassana, ( anupassana=bhavana) or you may contemplate on Mahabhuthas to help the mind not to run away and remain "in circuit" around the breath, and help it always to come back to the breath. Feelings are the same, you be aware of them as they arise and when they pass away come back to the breath. In Dhammanupassana, you can see what the thoughts contain, be aware of the presence of hindrances (nivaranas) and come to the breath when they have passed away. You can just use kayanupassana or feelings, not necessary to contemplate on all the four foundations. These are part of the anapanasati, to bring the mind to a one pointed concentration. The Kasinas are objects and you will have to concentrate looking at them until you get the mirror object. It is a little like "hypnotism". Like a Cock getting mesmerized to a finger held in front of it. (?)It is not the same really… I have not tried it. Rising and falling of the stomach is a new method found by Venerable U.Naradha of Burma and popularized by Mahashi Sayadaw. It does seem to do very well for some. Anapanasati has the advantage of the easy access to it, being with you all the time not necessary to be seated for hours. One can turn to it at any moment of the day. You should not worry about breath being a concept, all objects of meditation are concepts until you come to Gotrabhu, when you take on a lokuttara citta. Ask Nina or Htoo ? I hope I have answered the 2nd Point. If there is any thing missing or if I have overdone things, I hope Htoo will help me out. With metta, Hasituppada. 44954 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:49am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding hasituppada Dear tep, Here is the 3rd point you raise. 3. The belief that "Sati has to be cultivated being mindful of one's actions" has been criticized by the Abhidhamma believers as a 'wrong view' that is driven by "lobha" and a "self " (who wants to control the end result). How would you respond to them ? _______________________________________________________________ Here is my attempt at a reply: Between you and me Tep, they are completely off the track. They get hold of any thing and every thing to prove concepts, lobha, self and all that. When I first came to DSG, because of Nina, asking her questions on Abhidhamma, I found myself in the middle of a "big" issue. Whether the Computer is a concept or not ? So you can imagine what they can come up with. What is "sati" ? Sati is being mindful. What is being mindful ? It is being attentive, being aware. So what is the problem. Sati does not fall from the sky. Or does it ? Where is the Lobha in being attentive ? Sati is a cetasika related to kusala kamma. With regard to "self", it is always there whether we like it or not. That is why our passage in samsara is so long. In meditation we have to do with what we have until it becomes obsolete, therefore, the self or the concepts. Eventually we will understand they are only concepts and with that knowledge we will be in the "stream". _____________________________________________________________________ Tep, here is the 4th question you pose: 4. Can someone who is not "a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha" be able to reach Nibbana only by means of the Higher Dhamma (Abhidhamma)? They say it is more direct than using the method of the true follower. ________________________________________________________________ My attempt at a reply: It is like trying to do a PhD, without even doing the junior school certificate. They may be able to, but may take a long ….long….time. Higher dhamma creates confusion You remember Tep, in the Canon, we read that the Buddha after his enlightenment was hesitating , whether or not to teach ? Finally he knew how exactly he should set about teaching. He started by being pragmatic, without teaching things that are beyond simple peoples' comprehension. He spoke about conventional things, you, me, he, trees, horses, elephants, food, clothes, breath , and so on and so forth. Can you imagine Buddha trying to tell ordinary people, that they do not exist and they are only five aggregates ? No, the Lord knew what he was doing, he showed them the middle path to Nibbana. What did the Buddha tell Mahanama his kinsman, when he told him, that he cannot help being attached, having aversions and that he is deluded ? The Buddha said that it is quite normal, other wise there is no samsara and that he would have already attained Nibbana. (Chuladukkakkhanda Sutta) Correct View (Samma Ditthi) has two aspects Tep, the mundane and super mundane. The mundane view may help you to a good life here and in the next life or be born in one of the higher Deva planes. Then perhaps, be born again in the human world to Meditate…! With metta, Hasituppada. 44955 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding hasituppada Dear Htoo, Thank you, with metta, Hasituppada ____________________________________________________ Htoo: Dear Hasituppada, More tasteful pudding! You did not hurt anyone at all. Aataapii, sampajaano, satimaa -- viriya, panna, sati or sati, viriya, pannaor mindfulness, effort, wisdom. These 3 are main constituents. To reach these 3 constituents lot, one has to be carried by saddha initially. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44956 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:19am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding buddhistmedi... Dear KenH (Attn.: Hasituppada, Htoo, Larry, Sukin, Kel, etc. ) - Thank you for rolling up your sleeves and joining us in the debate. Yes, the hotter the discussion, the better it is. KenH : > > The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice > described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. > T: Oh, I did not know that! So why don't you (please kindly) tell me about how the "practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries" is different from "the practice described by Hasituppada and Tep"? I would be glad to learn from you and, if your explanation makes sense, will gladly correct my mistake. KenH: > Hasituppada and Tep seem to think the practice of satipatthana has concepts (walking, talking, eating etc.) as its objects. The practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, > conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. > It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two. > T: Under this thread, "Breathing", we're focusing on Anapanasati so much that it may seem as if other objects of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness are ignored. Don't let that impression distort your view, Ken. In Maha-satipatthana Sutta breathing and walking are the meditation objects of the kayanupassana. The Buddha did not make an effort to label them as concepts, or not-concepts. Apparently that knowledge is not conducive to the end results of the meditation. So why should we , the practitioners, worry too much about that ? Hasitappada is one of the most experienced lay-meditators I have known, and "hybrid" meditation objects are not the only meditation objects he knows well. Let's read his remarks in the DSG message # 44948: "What I think, and I think Htoo will, understand me,is that Meditation is an all inclusive practice. That is to say that the word "Bhavana" which means, cultivation of the mind, includes both Samata and Vipassana. Therefore each time one speaks of Bhavana there is no need to say First "samata" and then "vipassana" as it is all inclusive. "Tep, there are two types of Jhana absorbtions, one is the Samatha Jhana absorption that starts with Anapana Sati ( or kasina) and then coming out of it after the forth absorption sit or continue Vipassana. In vipassana, use all objects, breath, sound, smell etc. to see the tri lakkhana, or merely say anicca as each object appears….Then do one of the meditations, like the asubha, dhatu- manasikara, Buddhanusati, Dhammanussati etc. You will still have your breath to hold onto…but after one of the meditations, say on asubha you will be absorbed into another Jhana, a vipassana jhana, which is more subtle and satisfying, comfortable and joyous(piti). Then you have shifted you concentration from the breath to the "emptiness". [enquote] Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo (Hasituppada and Tep), > > Htoo: > > Tep's summary of Hasituppada's main points: > > 3. All his teachings were a direction to Nibbana. Mahasatipanna > Sutta > is the discourse he made to his disciples and all those who were to > follow, in the form of instructions for meditation. That is the one > and only way, to Nibbana. Satipattana does not arise as a miracle > from time to time, it is the practice of the four foundations of > mindfulness. Sati, has to be cultivated being mindful of one's > actions, words and thoughts as far as one can every day, until it > becomes the normal way of living. It is very difficult to do > following a lay life. > ............ > Htoo: > Good points, Hasituppada. Thanks Tep for your summary as you > always do. > ---------------------------------------- > > The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice > described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. The last > time you and I conversed, you acknowledged the difference and you > congratulated me on the way I had explained it. What has happened > since then? Have you gone back to what Amara once called, "hybrid > Dhamma?" > > Hasituppada and Tep seem to think the practice of satipatthana has > concepts (walking, talking, eating etc.) as its objects. The > practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, > conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. > It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two. > > > Is that hot enough for you? :-) > Ken H 44957 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:43am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding hasituppada Dear Htoo, As I have made several posts and many of the questions you have raised on those of Tep, have been dealt with, I will attempt to answer only the following: Htoo: I do not agree Hasituppada. What do you think, Tep? The Buddha said, 'Do not kill'. One lay follower listen and does not kill any being. I think he is a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha _______________________________________________________________ The lay follower who refrains from killing having heard the Buddha word "do not kill" will certainly accumulate Kusala Karma with appropriate Vipaka. But whether he is a true follower of Buddha is another thing. To be a follower of Buddha, one has to take refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and develop true confidence in the Teachings. That alone is not enough, he will have to understand, by reading or listening the four noble truths, eight fold path and that good actions have good results. That unwholesome kamma springs from lobha, dosa and moha and wholesome Kamma from alobha, adosa and amoha. Man has not been created he is the result of Kamma and the law of cause and effect. That there is birth after death. And birth brings, disease, oldage, death, sorrow and lamentation.....at least that to have a correct mondane view. with metta, Hasituppada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 44958 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesa and Htoo - Perfect implementation of the five precepts is the guarantee that lower realms are cut off <'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended!'>. [AN X.92] You're right that a sotapanna still has lobha, dosa and moha to "some degree". But the rough mulas that are the conditions for entering the lower realms are eliminated. I don't think it is possible for the sotapanna who has perfected the five precepts to "break the precepts" in the future. Why? Because there no more "mulas". Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Tep,Htoo, > > > H: But once you realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at > the > > expence of your life. This happen because there is no ditthi or > wrong > > view, no vicikicchaa or doubt. > > > M: I would have thought that the thought which breaks a precept has > the akusala mula -lobha, dosa and moha as their cause. A sothapanna > still has these to some degree. Would you say that while it is > improbable that a sotthapanna would break precepts, it is not > impossible? The words impossible has been used for the arahath in > the suttas in regards to the precepts though. > > metta > > > Matheesha 44959 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:48am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding hasituppada Dear KenH, I see Tep answering your querries. I have not read it as yet. In the mean time let me see how I could reply your querries; I am not a well experienced meditator, as kind Tep always tells me. Nevertheless, I practice what little I do in terms of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. I have read some of the Suttas relevant to Meditation. I have been doing "serious" meditation since 1995, though I started meditation long time before. I have done several retreats with very good teachers. I have learnt a little of Abhidhamma reading Nina, Venerable Narada thero and Patthana Dhamma reading Htoo. I am a visitor to DSG without participating, but yet learn a lot from reading many of the posts. The part of the first paragraph of you post that deems a reply necessary is: KenH says: The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. ______________________________________________________________ Hasituppada's reply. You need not include the whole Pali Cannon. However, we can take the Pali Cannon which was prepared at the First Sangayana, at which Venerable Ananda read out the Sutta as he heard them directly from the Buddha or when the Buddha made the discourses when he was present. And Venerable Upali read out the Vinaya Pitaka. Thereafter the Pali Canon consisted of the Vinaya Pitaka and the Sutta Pita. They were the most ancient teachings. That is the teachings of the Buddha for the Order of the Sangha and his disciples. Tep,I, Htoo and millions of the followers of the Buddha take meditation instructions from this Sutta Pitaka. ___________________________________________________________________ KenH says, Hasituppada and Tep seem to think the practice of satipatthana has concepts (walking, talking, eating etc.) as its objects. The practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two. _______________________________________________________________ Hasituppada's reply: Satipattana Sutta is the discourse that the Buddha made to his disciples and human lay followers, at the Kuru Village present Delhi. Buddha made his discourses in conventional language (vohara bhasa) for every body to understand. He called his First Disciples Sariputta, Mogallana and called his many disciple Bikkhu, all in conventional terms: I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in the Kuru country. Now there is a town of the Kurus called Kammasadhamma. There the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Monks." "Lord," the monks replied. The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four? "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. (Mahasatipatthana Sutta.) So Dear Ken H, when you say: "The practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two." You speak, thus, about the teachings of the Buddha KenH. If that is what you say, is the teachings of the Buddha, we, Tep,I and Htoo and millions of others follow that "which you describe". _____________________________________________________________________ _ KenH say: Enlightenment is a synonym for wisdom - understanding. That is the way taught by the Buddha. Forgive me for lecturing you, Htoo, but you should be helping Hasituppada and Tep to understand the Dhamma (by far the most difficult and profound of all teachings): you should not be encouraging pointless ritualistic shortcuts. Hasituppada says: Dear KenH, Enlightenment is one thing, Wisdom is another. You should not confuse the two. You should read some of Htoo's posts they are informative. However, it is good to read as much as possible, what ever Dhamma you learn is not lost. May you be happy. With metta, Hasituppada 44960 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:01am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo [Hasituppada, KenH, Nina and others] - I am pleased by your humor and lively comments that has energized this thread. :-)) :-)) :-)) Starting with, and still circling around breathing meditation, there are several useful issues now -- thanks to Hasituppada's comprehensive wisdom. (I) >Hasituppada: If you are not following the Sutta Pitaka and accept > and practice meditation according to the instructions in the Suttas >to attain Nibbana in this life or another, you are not a true >follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha. --------------------------------- Htoo: I do not agree Hasituppada. What do you think, Tep? The Buddha said, 'Do not kill'. One lay follower listen and does not kill any being. I think he is a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha. ---------------------------------- Hasit: (in # 44957) To be a follower of Buddha, one has to take refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and develop true confidence in the Teachings. That alone is not enough, he will have to understand, by reading or listening the four noble truths, eight fold path and that good actions have good results. That unwholesome kamma springs from lobha, dosa and moha and wholesome Kamma from alobha, adosa and amoha. T: Hasitappada was talking about the whole Buddhsasana, but Htoo was talking about a member of the whole set. ------------------------------- (II) T : Why is this meditation scheme so powerful? How could > breathing as the meditation object be more effective than, >say, contemplation of feeling or contemplation of the 4 Noble >Truths? Or, am I not comparing apples to apples? ----------------------------- Htoo: In terms of what? you mean 'so powerful'. Kaaya or vedana or citta or dhamma all are effective and powerful. ------------------------------ T: In the following sense, Htoo: Nina in DSG # 28215: "We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: # Other great points made by Htoo (that I like): ''I WILL VERY STRONGLY SAY THAT IF A MIND IS TAKING JHANA OBJECT THAT MIND IS NOT TAKING ANICCA (anicca-homed dhamma like nama or rupa) AS ITS OBJECT. IF A MIND IS TAKING NAMA OR RUPA AS ITS OBJECT, THAT MIND IS NOT RUPA JHANA.'' [HTOO] Whether one is a disciple of The Buddha or not, if he is following satipatthana and if there are right conditions, he will definitely REACH NIBBANA. Otherwise in Sunna Kappa, there would not be any paccekabuddhas. Tep's comment: Paccekabuddhas might be the consequence of having been Ariyas puggalas in previous lives when they were taught the Four Noble Truths by the Buddhas of the past. Does this make sense, Htoo? Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, Hasituppada, Sukin, and All, > > :-)) :-)) :-)) , > Tep's Remarks & Questions ***** (snipped) > Tep's question continued: > > Why is this meditation scheme so powerful? How could breathing as the > meditation object be more effective than, say, contemplation of > feeling or contemplation of the 4 Noble Truths? Or, am I not > comparing apples to apples? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > In terms of what? you mean 'so powerful'. Kaaya or vedana or citta or > dhamma all are effective and powerful. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 44961 From: nina Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:26am Subject: good wishes nilovg Dear Sarah, Many happy returns. You are celebrating on the beach. Lodewijk said: may you have many good reminders through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. May the four Brahmaviharas guide you in the years to come. Lodewijk also said that the words of the Buddha in the Parinibbana sutta and other suttas are strong reminders that we have to be our own refuge, that we have to develop our own understanding. How? Through satipatthana, being aware of any reality appearing through the six doors, one at a time. Of course, Lodewijk said, we all have the Buddha as our guide, but we should verify the truth ourselves. Nina. 44962 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - the word should. nilovg Hi Larry, op 30-04-2005 01:33 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > The *should* is just a quote from the Visuddhimagga and I do not like to > change quotes. I do not stumble over this *should*, though." > L: The "should" concept conditions a prompted consciousness. N: I know what you mean. Kusala citta can be prompted by the advice of someone else or by inducement by oneself. When it is unprompted, there is no hesitation in its arising. Nina. 44963 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 0:11pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply buddhistmedi... Hi Sukinder (Attn: Nina, Sarah, Htoo, Hasitappada, KenH, Larry and others) - I am sorry for delaying my reply to you after I have answered all other emails. There was a reason, Sukinder. S: >You will remember in fact that I stressed so much on the development of parami, enough to tire you ;-). T: Every time in the past whenever I had to write a reply to your email, I felt like juggling three size-16 bowling balls in the air while, at the same time, walking on a thin wire at 10 feet above the ground-- the task is both awkhard and dangerous to handle. On the other hand, if I were to compare your writings to food, I'd say they tasted like a peppered pudding. Thank you so much for the mellow pudding this time! :-|) Also, thanks for catching a funny typographical error, "detachment", that you correctly corrected to "attachment". > T: The only thing I agree with you, Sukinder, is your last remark above -- it is the same as saying "the proof in in the > pudding". Have you proved that you are free from attachment? Now, let me make up two lists of items in your message # 44929; the first one consists of your agreeable remarks, and the second list is for the disageeable remarks. Then my response follows. Sukinder's Agreeable Remarks (I) ----------------------------------- 1. Even the understanding of dana and sila is enhanced by pariyatti, thus conditioning more instances of it. All kusala are helpful and should be encouraged. 2. Even to appreciate these [sila, dana or bhavana] theoretically requires panna, how much more so in practice? Sukinder's Debatable Points (II) --------------------------------- 1. Only those cittas that are associated with panna are said to be ever doing the job of slowly moving us away from conditioned realities, towards nibbana. 2. The idea of "doing" and that these must be developed in certain order, is what makes it hard or impossible for any panna to arise to know them as they are. 3. So even though I do not talk about this, it is nevertheless implied in that these [sila, dana or bhavana] are stages which are needed to go through, but not in anyone's control as to when or if they will occur. 4. For you it seems more like something within control and to be done. And of course, you seem to separate sila, Samadhi and panna, thinking that they can and ought to be developed each on their own. To me this is just an abstraction and does not seem to reflect the true nature of reality. 5. However detachment can happen on a momentary level and does reflect in the general outlook of many members here. They know for example that pariyatti is not enough and that this will not lead to the goal without much, much patipatti. 6. Every moment of kusala accumulates and conditions more of the kind. So sila and samatha both when arisen, will accumulate and support each other and panna. But like I said above, can we even begin to appreciate sila for example, without any understanding? Tep's Comments on (I): ------------------------- I am sure that we are in agreement with respect to the virues of sila, dana and any kusala dhamma, but I am not sure if our understandings of bhavana are the same. To me bhavana consists of samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. Panna (understanding) knows, while sila and samadhi support panna all the way from the puthujjana level until the lokuttara level. We need panna to guide all activities (talking, writing, etc.) even for babies, and there are several levels of panna. For example, a criminal uses his panna to steal, rob, cheat, and kill others (for money). But we don't want that panna, do we? We have to develop panna by adhipanna sikkha. What we want is the higher understanding that is supported by sila, samadhi, viriya, and full awareness-- not intellectual understanding from reading and thinking only. The taste of panna is in the pudding too. Do you remember the following quote from the Visuddhimagga? 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding, Then as a Bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. VisM I, 7. Please study the following quote. 'Here training of higher virtue is known by virtue; the training of higher consciousness by concentration (samadhi); and the training of higher understanding by understanding.' VisM I,10. Adhisila sikkha = training of higher virtue. Adhicitta sikkha = training of higher consciousness. Adhipanna sikkha = training of higher understanding. Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): ------------------------------------------------------- 1. Which level of panna? What trainings (sikkha) are necessary to "move" a person "away from conditioned realities towards nibbana"? 2. But "doing"the right things, in this case the 3 kinds of "training" (sikkha), is the only way to produce a result that "moves" a person "away from conditioned realities towards nibbana" as obvious from the Visuddhimagga quotes above. Are the trainings for visuddhi sila, visuddhi citta, and visuddhi panna not "doing" something and doing it the right way (the Eightfold Path)? 3. I don't think that 'I' have be 'the one' who 'controls' the Path factors to arise. So we are in agreement here. But the doing nothing because of the fear of 'lobha' and the fear of "self", thinking that they may spring at you, is a wrong view. 4. For me there is work remains to be done with right effort and right mindfulness, both being guided by right view. And of course, I believe in having sila sikkha and citta sikkha to support understanding, thinking that they can be earnestly developed. The idea that sila and samadhi "ought to be developed each on their own" never occurs to me, and it is never on my mind. 5. I know that you mean Tep is one of "them". So please show us how "detachment can happen on a momentary level" and "that pariyatti is enough and that this will lead to the goal without much, much patipatti". I would love to do it "the easy way", Sukinder! Only extremely ignorant people would want to do anything the hardest way -- if they knew a much easier way existed. 6. Does the process of kusala accumulation operate like a perpetual- motion machine? By saying, "So sila and samatha both when arisen, will accumulate and support each other and panna", you are talkng like you can go back to your armchair and relax, doing nothing, once you have set your "kusala" running. By the way, since when did you start to accept samatha ? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Tep, > 44964 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 0:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - the word should. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Can you give an example of prompted insight? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > op 30-04-2005 01:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > The *should* is just a quote from the Visuddhimagga and I do not like to > > change quotes. I do not stumble over this *should*, though." > > > > L: The "should" concept conditions a prompted consciousness. > N: I know what you mean. Kusala citta can be prompted by the advice of > someone else or by inducement by oneself. > When it is unprompted, there is no hesitation in its arising. > Nina. 44965 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:19pm Subject: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] buddhistmedi... Dear Lisa and Phil [Attn: Kel, Hasituppada, Htoo, KenH, Sukinder, Sarah and Nina ..] I have studied your dialogue on the breath meditation (#44858) with earnest interest. The message is impressive because the subject is very interesting and the you both know what you are talking about. Lisa has shown unusual self confidence in her experience, and Phil is exceptional in his questioning skill and politeness. Thank you both very much. Now I would like to ask Lisa some questions. I hope you don't mind. L: >I can make breath soft, hard, and hold it while swimming under >water, that is the control I'm talking about, I'm not talking about >the subtle level of sensation, which is there all the time coming and >going and does not wait or run from anything. The reason breath >is a very good object of meditation for me is an easy focus and >this ability to control it on a surface level and then there is >the most subtle of vibrations that is very hard to find. T: I have no trouble understanding this description of your breathing meditation experience. But there are DSG members who would find it difficult to follow your story, because they would keep asking you why there is an atta (self) in control of the breathing. They will then say that you have an illusion because all dhammas are anatta. They will further question you on using breath as the object of meditation. They will advise you that breath is a concept, not a reality, unlike the five aggregates. They will then conclude that you are in trouble and, unless you re-educate yourself with the right view, you will never understand the realities the way they really are. Now, Lisa, how would you respond to them? Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Philip wrote: > > > > > [Phil] Hi Lisa > > [Phil]Thanks for describing your meditation. You write with such > confidence and enthusiasm. I can get an idea of how the benefits you > gain from meditation have a great influence on the people in your > life. > > [Phil] Since I am not now a meditator and have never studied with a > meditation teacher, please feel free to disregard my comments. And > perhaps if you can encourage me about the benefits of meditation, it > will help condition a return to the meditation mat for me! :) > > [Lisa] I used the breath to help me focus because it is always there > and I can control it as I wish. > > [Lisa]I can make breath soft, hard, and hold it while swimming under > water, that is the control I'm talking about, I'm not talking about > the subtle level of sensation, which is there all the time coming and > going and does not wait or run from anything. The reason breath is a > very good object of meditation for me is an easy focus and this > ability to control it on a surface level and then there is the most > subtle of vibrations that is very hard to find. > 44966 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] good wishes sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Lodewijk (& James), Thank you and Lodewijk very much for your good wishes and reminders. I consider Lodewijk to be a really good dhamma friend and he's carefully considered and given me (and everyone here) the very best reflections with lots of metta, I know. Since I first stayed with you both all those years ago, you've both always been so very kind to me. Yes, I'm sitting with a cup of tea and a new beach cap before an early trip to the beach. And yes, we can benefit from good reminders through the six senses wherever we are.....thank you for this. As K.Sujin always says, how can we ever feel lonely when there are all these dhammas in a day with so many opportunities for sati to develop? I like the reminder to verify what the Buddha taught for ourselves too -- by developing satipatthana. Thank you Lodewijk for these treasues. Metta, Sarah p.s James, I'm thinking of you today with Cairo back in the news (I just heard of an attack briefly on the radio but haven't seen a paper yet). Also, I know you also have a birthday around this time, so I'd like to share the good wishes below with you as well with metta. --- nina wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Many happy returns. You are celebrating on the beach. > Lodewijk said: may you have many good reminders through eyes, ears, > nose, > tongue, bodysense and mind. May the four Brahmaviharas guide you in the > years to come. > > Lodewijk also said that the words of the Buddha in the Parinibbana sutta > and > other suttas are strong reminders that we have to be our own refuge, > that we > have to develop our own understanding. How? Through satipatthana, being > aware of any reality appearing through the six doors, one at a time. Of > course, Lodewijk said, we all have the Buddha as our guide, but we > should > verify the truth ourselves. 44967 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding hasituppada Dear Tep, I replied one of your questions yesterday without taking enough time to think about it as my wife was bothering me to hurry up to keep a dinner date. Thinking about that post afterwards, I felt I had left out some thing important. The question was: 4. Can someone who is not "a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha" be able to reach Nibbana only by means of the Higher Dhamma (Abhidhamma)? They say it is more direct than using the method of the true follower. As an answer to a general question it could pass off, but even then one can never be sure of one's next birth and least of all that of some one else. All depends on ones accumulations,and the last thought moment ( gati or Kamma Nimitta) that is passed on to the cuti citta. It may be a wholesome kamma or an unwholesome kamma, one cannot be sure. The Lord Buddha has said that to be born a human being is extremely difficult. I am a born Buddhist, I still do not know Pali. It is normal that I have saddha having been born a Buddhist, and it is also natural that I meditate according to the Buddhist methods that I have been taught from childhood. But it would have been different if I were to have been born in a non-Buddhist country, to non- Buddhist parents, and dissatisfied with the religion to which I was born, search and find the teachings of the Buddha. I aught to have had lot of wholesome accumulations to have gone that far to find the Dhamma, and do every thing possible to study it, and also tell others about it. Thinking on these lines, Ted, can you imagine some of the members of the DSG. Some names that come to my mind, among many of them are, Nina, Lodewijk, Sara, Dan, Sukindar, Christine, Ken Howard, Dan, Larry, Jon, Azita, Liza, and James. They are exceptional people. They come from different places, of different nationalities, born in non-Buddhist countries, to non-Buddhist parents, have found Buddhism, whatever aspect of it. They have learnt Pali to understand the teachings better. What had pushed them to these extremes from what they were? Isn't it their accumulation of good Kamma. They may one of these days meditate and become stream entrants, or even attain nibbana in this very life. If not,after this life they may not be born in to lower levels, they may be born into higher planes and if born in the human world into happy Buddhist families,and may meditate and attain Stream entry or even Nibbana. Their accumulations of good kamma may be far more than that of mine. Who can say ……………? Therefore, my post replying to your question referred to above should please be recast in the light of this post, which I very humbly submit. With metta, Hasituppada. 44968 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:32pm Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] foamflowers Picks up the dropped glove and hands it back to Tep with loving kindness and the greatest of respect. Panna=yatha-bhuta-nana-dassanam seeing things as they are, not as they appear to be. That is, understanding the true nature of anicca (impermanence), dukkha (suffering) and anatta (essencelessness) in all things. Vipassana 101 taught by S.N. Goenka. What does holding your breath underwater have to do with a self or not a self or concepts for that matter? Can't one hold their breath so they won't drown in concepts, I mean water? I suggest trying it out and seeing if it works in a pool of water near you if you know how to swim. Where in the information I presented is there a self or mention of a self that is permanent and independent? This is 'not self' and that is 'not self' and also who is 'not self' and what is 'not self', I don't think I've mentioned 'no self,' by the way. If you have trouble swallowing my story don't eat it, I am not the one who put it in your mouth. If you're choking on concepts take a drink of anatta it is cool and refreshing. And what does anatta have to do with self or no-self? I think the worry of self and no-self can bind one up just like cravings and aversions. I hear Dhamma is full of fiber and will get things moving again, take two passages on anatta and some breath mediation and let it go. As I understand it the path to freedom is to know yourself and I will not defend what I think is me or what I do not think is me for that would also show the taint of self grasping. Anatta is 'not self' correct? Anattan or anatta as "not the self," and has nothing to do with no-self. What is there to defend or let go of when all things are equal? With Metta....looks out into the crowd to see who is whispering but only sees shadows, that light is in my eyes, bows and runs off the stage through a side door 'labeled' anatta...lol 'Lisa' The word anattan (nominative: anatta) is a noun (Sanskrit: anatma) and means "not-self" as in a being that is not independent. Anatman also has a place when it is used for "what is not the Soul or spirit from brahmanical Sanskrit sources. Anatta is used in Buddhism by Buddhist from my limited lay persons understanding as a negative noun. Hence, rupam anatta is translated "corporeality is a not-self," or "corporeality is not and independent being." 44969 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Lisa and Phil [Attn: Kel, Hasituppada, Htoo, KenH, Sukinder, Sarah and Nina ..] I have studied your dialogue on the breath meditation (#44858) with earnest interest. The message is impressive because the subject is very interesting and the you both know what you are talking about. Lisa has shown unusual self confidence in her experience, and Phil is exceptional in his questioning skill and politeness. Thank you both very much. Now I would like to ask Lisa some questions. I hope you don't mind. L: >I can make breath soft, hard, and hold it while swimming under >water, that is the control I'm talking about, I'm not talking about >the subtle level of sensation, which is there all the time coming and >going and does not wait or run from anything. The reason breath >is a very good object of meditation for me is an easy focus and >this ability to control it on a surface level and then there is >the most subtle of vibrations that is very hard to find. T: I have no trouble understanding this description of your breathing meditation experience. But there are DSG members who would find it difficult to follow your story, because they would keep asking you why there is an atta (self) in control of the breathing. They will then say that you have an illusion because all dhammas are anatta. They will further question you on using breath as the object of meditation. They will advise you that breath is a concept, not a reality, unlike the five aggregates. They will then conclude that you are in trouble and, unless you re-educate yourself with the right view, you will never understand the realities the way they really are. Now, Lisa, how would you respond to them? Respectfully yours, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Lisa and all, When one drives a car, he or she will have to switch on the ignition key. Then turn the motor to start the engine. Now the engine runs. Next the clutch is pressed down so as to be free from gears. While the clutch is being pressed, the lever of gear-box is put into the first-gear and then the clutch is slowly released while accelerator lever is a bit pushed. As the running engine makes the axle and cam shaft runs and the first gear is put into action, the car start to move. While moving, the steering wheel is firmly held to control the car. Left, right, straight and so on and sometimes the brake is used to control the car. Likewise, when swimming the feet have to paddle, the thighs and legs have to moving up and down and the hands and arms have to swing stroking down so as to control the body movement. There is no 'I', no 'you', no 'he' , no 'she', no 'they and yes there is no person at all. Everything is anatta. All are anatta. Even though there is no 'I' or no 'Htoo', these words are controled by so called Htoo Naing. One word after another has to come out as 'he', who never exists as 'paramattha dhamma' is skilfully typing one letter after another and spacing and choosing capital letter, lower case letter and so on. In this way 'Htoo', who never exists is now controlling all the words that arise in his mind. By control, words are edited, rephrased and then words are skilfully typed one after another. Yes. Sabbe dhamma anattaa. But now words are coming out and appear on this forum and as long as one is viewing this message, the message will be there permanently even though everything is anatta. Yes. Like Lisa, 'I' or 'Htoo', who never exists, can control his breath to be subtle. 'Htoo' becomes happy as soon as he thinks on Dhamma and as soon as he thinks to practise Dhamma or satipatthaana or vipassana. Yes. There is no control. But Htoo especially prepares himself physically to be clean. He has his hair cut/shaved. He cuts his finger-nails and toe-nails. He has a nice bath. He cleans his mouth and teeth. He keeps his body healthy so as to support Dhamma. Then he especially goes to a special area like 'on the summit of a mountain' 'in a bamboo grove' 'in a forest' 'under a tree' 'in a deserted building', where there is less noice and less disturbance. After especially goes to such area, he sits on his 'crossed-legs' called 'hip-pallinka' and straights up his back so as to be able to sit for a long long time. And then he especially put his mind around his mouth (parimukhi) and he mindfully breathes in. He mindfully breathes out. Yes. There is no control. Sabbe dhamma anattaa. But The Buddha did preach 'SAMPAJANNA'. There are 4 kinds of sampajanna. Robert K will explain if someone asks what are sampajannas and how many kinds of sampajannas. Htoo has to choose (especially) because the chosen special place is suitable for development of sati and panna. No samaadhi, no panna. No sati, no panna. No viriya, no panna. If someone is constantly moving, there will not be a good samaadhi. Sitting is the best position as it helps stillness of the body for a long time. What about lying? Of course, it can. But viriya-wise, effort-wise sitting is better than lying. What about walking? It can. But it is moving all the time and there are many things to note while moving. Now I have to note many things as I am very rapidly typing on screen. First I noted that and idea arise and they became fingers' movement and then changed to words on screen. I am doing satipatthana. Yes. This daily life movements can well be satipatthana and this sort of satipatthana can develop panna. But for beginners, preparation DOES NEED. So 'control' is also needed. I have to control not to kill beings. I have to control not to take any ungiven things. I have to control not to think sensuous things. I have to control not to contaminate my food with alcohol. When I speak, I have to control my words not to word or speak wrong things. I am controlling my breath. As I have been practising for long, my breath becomes subtle at each session. It is true that everything is anatta. Now, I am controlling my breath. But I am not controlling any citta, any cetasika, any rupa. As soon as I control my breath, what happens is that a citta arises. According to that citta, actions arise. That action may be breathing- stopping, breath-ceasing, breath-hasting. I am not controlling any citta at all. But 'I' or 'Htoo', who never exists is now controlling his breath, his fingers playing skilfully on the keyboard. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44970 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:58pm Subject: Questions & Answers by Hasituppada buddhistmedi... Hi Everyone - Hasituppada's answers to my 4 questions are now summarized below. [# 44948]: (1) Can vipassana-nana be directly developed without jhana as the supporting condition? Answer: I do not personally believe that Vipassana can be developed, without a mind purified by Jhana absorbtions. Vipassana Naanas arise as you go on meditating; some times you may be aware of it, and some times you may not. After one of the (samatha) meditations, say on asubha, you will be absorbed into another Jhana, a vipassana jhana, which is more subtle and satisfying, comfortable and joyous (piti). [# 44953]: (2) How could breathing as the meditation object more effective than other objects such as vedana and the 4 Noble Truths? Answer: The "breath " itself is a body, and therefore Kayanupassana, ( anupassana=bhavana) or you may contemplate on Mahabhuthas to help the mind not to run away and remain "in circuit" around the breath, and help it always to come back to the breath. Feelings are the same, you be aware of them as they arise and when they pass away come back to the breath. In Dhammanupassana, you can see what the thoughts contain, be aware of the presence of hindrances (nivaranas) and come to the breath when they have passed away. You can just use kayanupassana or feelings, not necessary to contemplate on all the four foundations. These are part of the anapanasati, to bring the mind to a one pointed concentration. [# 44954]: (3) The belief that "Sati has to be cultivated being mindful of one's actions" has been criticized by the Abhidhamma believers as a 'wrong view' that is driven by "lobha" and a "self " (who wants to control the end result). Answer: What is "sati" ? Sati is being mindful. What is being mindful ? It is being attentive, being aware. So what is the problem. Sati does not fall from the sky. Or does it ? Where is the Lobha in being attentive ? Sati is a cetasika related to kusala kamma. With regard to "self", it is always there whether we like it or not. That is why our passage in samsara is so long. In meditation we have to do with what we have until it becomes obsolete, therefore, the self or the concepts. Eventually we will understand they are only concepts and with that knowledge we will be in the "stream". (4) Can someone who is not "a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha" be able to reach Nibbana only by means of the Higher Dhamma (Abhidhamma)? They say it is more direct than using the method of the true follower. Answer: Higher dhamma creates confusion: the Buddha started by being pragmatic, without teaching things that are beyond simple peoples' comprehension. He spoke about conventional things, you, me, he, trees, horses, elephants, food, clothes, breath , and so on and so forth. Can you imagine Buddha trying to tell ordinary people, that they do not exist and they are only five aggregates ? No, the Lord knew what he was doing, he showed them the middle path to Nibbana. Tep's Comment: ------------------------- The four questions were not asked randomly. Questions 1 to 3 have a focus on samatha and absorption (jhana) in general, and anapanasati in particular. The last question attempts to shed some light to the myth that the Abhidhamma principles alone offer the direct path to Nibbana, bypassing samatha meditation and even the Anapanasati. Thank you, Hasituppada, for the bold and sincere answers from your experiences and straight from your heart. Personally, I believe that such a critical examination of both approaches definitely benefits everyone who is open-minded. Respectfully, Tep ============ 44971 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:28pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding htootintnaing Tep wrote: Tep's comment: Paccekabuddhas might be the consequence of having been Ariyas puggalas in previous lives when they were taught the Four Noble Truths by the Buddhas of the past. Does this make sense, Htoo? Sincerely, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep and interested members of DSG, Sammasambuddhas and paccekabuddhas in their final life (pacchima bhava) do not have any enlightenment-teacher. And they are never pre-ariya in any previous lives. They all are puthujana with higest perfections with the greatest potential to blossom as Bodhi-Nana-owners. Example: Our Buddha, The Buddha Gotama in his Bodhisatta's life when in The Buddha Kassapa, who was His foregoing brother Sammasambuddha, was a disciple of The Buddha Kassapa. Once The Buddha Kassapa was preaching to audience that He had to do 'dukkara cariyaa' for 6 months. At that time Bodhisatta of Gotama-to-be said if it were him, he would practise 'dukkara cariyaa' for 6 years. 6 years is very exceptional for matured Bodhisattas. Most Buddhas become Sammasambuddha after practising 6 days to 6 weeks. This is biologically possible. But The Buddha Kassapa had to do 'dukkara cariyaa' for 6 months. The Buddha Gotama had to do 6 years, which is unimaginable. But it happened because of His vacii-kamma. Dear Tep, all Sammasambuddhas and all paccekabuddhas are first puthujana in their final life before they all become arahats. They may heard Dhamma before. They may heard the whole tipitaka. But they did not realize down to ptivedha level and they were never ariyas. That is they even did not have sotapatti magga nana in any of their past life. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44972 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:29pm Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] foamflowers > > But for beginners, preparation DOES NEED. > > So 'control' is also needed. I have to control not to kill beings. I > have to control not to take any ungiven things. I have to control not > to think sensuous things. I have to control not to contaminate my > food with alcohol. When I speak, I have to control my words not to > word or speak wrong things. > > I am controlling my breath. As I have been practising for long, my > breath becomes subtle at each session. It is true that everything is > anatta. > > Now, I am controlling my breath. But I am not controlling any citta, > any cetasika, any rupa. > > As soon as I control my breath, what happens is that a citta arises. > According to that citta, actions arise. That action may be breathing- > stopping, breath-ceasing, breath-hasting. I am not controlling any > citta at all. > > But 'I' or 'Htoo', who never exists is now controlling his breath, > his fingers playing skilfully on the keyboard. > > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo Naing, I've really enjoyed your posts and when I study my Dhamma I leave my mail on and take some time out to read DSG post that come in. It's weird how what I am working on in my studies also comes up in these posts. I just re-read my last post to Tep and it sounds kind of flippant, like I don't care or I am making fun of serious issues and how people care so much for my well being. I do care but sometimes my caring comes off rather lame..I have a odd sense of humor that I need to 'control'. I agree that sitting is important. I had never sat cross legged for more than an hour in my life let alone focus on one object that is so subtle like breath or sensations or the lights behind my eyelids. I try and not focus on lights that come up in meditation or I end up going on trips if I go into them, very nice and blissful but the next sit after the lights and bliss the sit will usually be very painful because all sorts of stuff comes up that is not so nice or blissful. Sitting in a quiet place with good teachers really helped me find those subtle sensations and when I left retreat I knew what to look for so meditation wasn't so much of a struggle to keep up and maintain. I used to sit for three or more hours at a time at retreats and at home but I hurt my back very badly last year and I can only sit for an hour at a time but now I have to get up and move about or the pain becomes overwhelming. I found out after the habit of meditation has been established in sitting it isn't that hard to take it through out my day. Discussing self, not a self, and no-self is a sticky issue with me and it also ties into kamma too, trying to write about kamma totally freaks me out. These are very deep lessons and I just started writing a couple of years ago when I went back to college to get a degree as a paralegal and a nurse so I can make a living in a healthy good way. For over twenty years I was a wife and a mother and writing plus study had to do with my children and farm not philosophy, metaphysics and trying to put reality as it is into fragile bubbles called words. Discussing these subtle terms that are so deep is a challenge and I truly admire the courage of everyone here, talk about putting your ego on the line! You may chop, slice and dice mine anyway you wish and I will sit cross legged and watch with equanimity as things come and go...(yeah right, I will most likely get flippant again) With metta, Lisa 44973 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Paccekabuddhas [was Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding] buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo - Your answer leaves no loosed ends -- it is complete and well written! Thanks a whole lot, Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Tep wrote: > > Tep's comment: Paccekabuddhas might be the consequence of > having been Ariyas puggalas in previous lives when they were taught > the Four Noble Truths by the Buddhas of the past. > > Does this make sense, Htoo? > > Sincerely, > > Tep > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Tep and interested members of DSG, > > Sammasambuddhas and paccekabuddhas in their final life (pacchima > bhava) > do not have any enlightenment-teacher. And they are never pre-ariya > in > any previous lives. They all are puthujana with higest perfections > with > the greatest potential to blossom as Bodhi-Nana-owners. > > Example: Our Buddha, The Buddha Gotama in his Bodhisatta's life when > in > The Buddha Kassapa, who was His foregoing brother Sammasambuddha, was > a > disciple of The Buddha Kassapa. Once The Buddha Kassapa was preaching > to audience that He had to do 'dukkara cariyaa' for 6 months. At that > time Bodhisatta of Gotama-to-be said if it were him, he would > practise 'dukkara cariyaa' for 6 years. > > 6 years is very exceptional for matured Bodhisattas. Most Buddhas > become Sammasambuddha after practising 6 days to 6 weeks. This is > biologically possible. But The Buddha Kassapa had to do 'dukkara > cariyaa' for 6 months. The Buddha Gotama had to do 6 years, which is > unimaginable. But it happened because of His vacii-kamma. > > Dear Tep, all Sammasambuddhas and all paccekabuddhas are first > puthujana in their final life before they all become arahats. > > They may heard Dhamma before. They may heard the whole tipitaka. But > they did not realize down to ptivedha level and they were never > ariyas. > That is they even did not have sotapatti magga nana in any of their > past life. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44974 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: Hi Tep,Htoo, >H: But once you realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at theexpence of your life. This happen because there is no ditthi or M: I would have thought that the thought which breaks a precept has the akusala mula -lobha, dosa and moha as their cause. A sothapanna still has these to some degree. Would you say that while it is improbable that a sotthapanna would break precepts, it is not impossible? The words impossible has been used for the arahath in the suttas in regards to the precepts though. metta Matheesha -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Matheesha, Did you see any ariya including sotapanna kill, steal, having unlawful sex (for sotapanna and sakadagam/ having sex for anagam and arahats), lying? With Metta, Htoo Naing 44975 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:44pm Subject: Re: Questions & Answers by Hasituppada - Revised Answer #4 buddhistmedi... Hi all - In light of Hasitupada's second thought on his answer # 4, I'd like to replace the previous one by the following extracted parahraphs from his most recent message: 4. Can someone who is not "a true follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha" be able to reach Nibbana only by means of the Higher Dhamma (Abhidhamma)? They say it is more direct than using the method of the true follower. As an answer to a general question it could pass off, but even then one can never be sure of one's next birth and least of all that of some one else. All depends on ones accumulations,and the last thought moment ( gati or Kamma Nimitta) that is passed on to the cuti citta. It may be a wholesome kamma or an unwholesome kamma, one cannot be sure. The Lord Buddha has said that to be born a human being is extremely difficult. I am a born Buddhist, I still do not know Pali. It is normal that I have saddha having been born a Buddhist, and it is also natural that I meditate according to the Buddhist methods that I have been taught from childhood. But it would have been different if I were to have been born in a non-Buddhist country, to non- Buddhist parents, and dissatisfied with the religion to which I was born, search and find the teachings of the Buddha. I aught to have had lot of wholesome accumulations to have gone that far to find the Dhamma, and do every thing possible to study it, and also tell others about it. Thinking on these lines, Ted, can you imagine some of the members of the DSG. Some names that come to my mind, among many of them are, Nina, Lodewijk, Sara, Dan, Sukindar, Christine, Ken Howard, Dan, Larry, Jon, Azita, Liza, and James. They are exceptional people. They come from different places, of different nationalities, born in non-Buddhist countries, to non-Buddhist parents, have found Buddhism, whatever aspect of it. They have learnt Pali to understand the teachings better. What had pushed them to these extremes from what they were? Isn't it their accumulation of good Kamma. They may one of these days meditate and become stream entrants, or even attain nibbana in this very life. If not,after this life they may not be born in to lower levels, they may be born into higher planes and if born in the human world into happy Buddhist families,and may meditate and attain Stream entry or even Nibbana. Their accumulations of good kamma may be far more than that of mine. Who can say ……………? Therefore, my post replying to your question referred to above should please be recast in the light of this post, which I very humbly submit. With metta, Hasituppada. =============================== Regards, Tep -------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Everyone - > > Hasituppada's answers to my 4 questions are now summarized below. > > (4) Can someone who is not "a true follower of the teachings of the Lord > Buddha" be able to reach Nibbana only by means of the Higher > Dhamma (Abhidhamma)? They say it is more direct than using the > method of the true follower. > > Answer: Higher dhamma creates confusion: the Buddha started by > being pragmatic, without teaching things that are beyond simple > peoples' comprehension. He spoke about conventional things, you, > me, he, trees, horses, elephants, food, clothes, breath , and so on and > so forth. Can you imagine Buddha trying to tell ordinary people, that > they do not exist and they are only five aggregates ? No, the Lord > knew what he was doing, he showed them the middle path to Nibbana. > 44976 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:55pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) philofillet Hello Gongchime, and all > New here. Anyway, the Abhidharma has some of the best philosophical > arguments anywhere on the state/nonstate of "seeming" human imho. Welcome to the group, Gongchime. I checked out your page. I'd like to heear your gamelan. I'd like to continue this thread on the all-important (nothing is more important, imo these days) topic of understanding realities. I think I'll transcribe a part of a dicussion I heard on tape. Jon: If the goal then is understanding realities, or understanding more about realities (phil's note - I think there's a meaningful difference between the above two - the latter is accumulating intellectual understanding that leads to the penetrative aspect of the former, though I don't know if Jon means it that way!) can you say a bit about how this understanding is developed? I mean it's one thing to realize that the world as we experience it or as we go through our daily life - we understand it intellectually, that there are different experiences through different doorways - but still the world appears to as a world of people and things and there's a lot of kilesa in daily life, so what is the key to developing understanding that cuts though this? (Phil's note - I appreciate Jon's question, especially since I think he knew what the answer would be! We have have to ask it again and again and let it drop when we know that we don't know yet. When we know, we will know. Panna will know.) Kh Sujin: To understand reality. Jon: Well why can't we do that? Even if now we're talking about it.. Kh Sujin (interjecting quite forcefully) Beccause no one can do that! Jon (laughs a little) Phil's note. I love this exhange. I suppose it would frustrate some people to go all the way to Bangkok to hear Kh Sujin say that, but it's such an important point. I'll leave it with you and transcribe some more later. Metta, Phil 44977 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] htootintnaing Discussing these subtle terms that are so deep is a challenge and I truly admire the courage of everyone here, talk about putting your ego on the line! You may chop, slice and dice mine anyway you wish and I will sit cross legged and watch with equanimity as things come and go...(yeah right, I will most likely get flippant again) With metta, Lisa -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Lisa, I just wrote that post so as to reveal what The Buddha taught. Crossed- leg is my appropriate interpretation for 'pallinka.m nisiidati'. Actually, mahasatipatthana can be done in any position, any movement. Sitting can be done on an easy chair. What matter is 'clear understanding and stillness'. If there is frequent moving, samadhi is hard to obtain. There are 4 portions of satipatthana. And there are 21 sessions of satipatthana. If 4 portions work together, it is close to bojjhanga. When bojjanga arise, path-factors or NEP or Noble Eightfold Path will arise simultaneously. How can 1. kayanupassana 2. vedananupassana 3. cittanupassana 4. dhammanupassana arise together? 1)If one is seeing just 'bone', this is not. 2)If one is seeing just breath, this is not. 3)If one is seeing just 'sitting' or any posture, this is not. 4)If one is just seeing bending, this is not. 5)If one is just seeing 'movement', this is not. 6)[6+ further 8] to 14)If one is just seeing 'festering', this is not. These are 14 contemplation on the body. Any of these 14 contemplation is kaayanupassana. But continue to read. If one knows or realizes that 'there is dhamma, which is free of hindrance, concentrating on nama bearing equanious feeling, which knows rupa[kaayanupassana], then he or she is said to be 4 mahasatipatthana. I said, there is no hindrance. So this is a kind of samadhi. This samadhi is sometimes referred to as vipassana-jhana by some. But as the object is nama dhamma, the mind at such period is not rupavacara jhana. When such matter is not understood, people are always arguing at this point. I will repeat. It is at higher level to attain such state of mind. What state of mind? It is the state of mind, when all 4 satipatthana are working. So there is no need to say any 'rituals' or formal or anything. What matter is 'TO FULLY KNOW NAMA AND RUPA THAT ARISE IN THE SENSE FIELD'. But for beginners, they do need sappaaya sampajanna. Just reading and just understanding is not realization. As soon as he or she has a stroke that attacks all the memory of learned matters, then there is nothing as Dhamma left. But for realized ones, whatever they have such as cancers or strokes or anything, they still have their wisdom. Because wisdom is from their real experience. As I frequently say, sati, viriya and panna have to come together. Just reading and understanding on facts is not realization. Actually there may be lobha in thier understanding. But some intelligent people are still thinking that realizers are doing rituals like formal meditation. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44978 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:18pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (340) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) There are 4 kinds of kamma concerned with seniority or serialness of all the existing kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma or 'heavy kamma' 2. asanna kamma or 'repeatedly-perceiving kamma' 3. acinna kamma or 'practised kamma or chronic kamma' 4. katattaa kamma or 'olden kamma' These last 4 kamma are mainly directed to the kamma that give rise to next life or patisandhi-giving-kamma. If there are all 4 kamma of garuka, asanna, acinna, and katatta kamma then garuka kamma gives rise the effect first and all other 3 kamma are succeeded by garuka kamma. When there is no garuka kamma then asanna kamma is the leading kamma at near dying and after cuti citta or after death, that asanna kamma gives rise to its effect as 'next life's patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness'. When there is no garuka kamma and no asanna kamma, then acinna kamma comes to play its role and katatta kamma cannot give rise to its effect at that time. Because katattaa kamma are olden kamma and these are past cetanas when the being committed in far far past lives. But, when there are no garuka kamma, no asanna kamma and no acinna kamma, then katattaa kamma is the main kamma and there is no escape way to avoid the result of kamma and being has to be reborn in one of 31 realms according to that katattaa kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44979 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:18pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) philofillet Hi again A couple of mistranscriptions that are worth nothing, especially the second one. The words between *s were missing in my previous post. Jon: the world as we experience it or as we go though our daily life *is not the world as it really is* Kh Sujin: "To understand reality *right now* Obviously that *right now* is where the key lies. Metta, Phil p.s Happy Birthday, Sarah. And belated to Jon. 44980 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:25pm Subject: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities. (Lodewijk's comment) philofillet Hi all When I posted that correction in the last post about "the world as it really is" it reminded me of soemthing interesting I read from Lodewijk. It came when he was suggesting to Nina that she had best be careful about the way she presents ultimate realities: Nina: Yes, we should realize that we are only beginners. We do not really know what ultimate realities, nama and rupa, are. We can only think about them. I understand better that James and others may fell put off when we say: there are only nama and rupa. Lodewijk: It is quite true that there are nama and rupa. However, we should not forget the following: the conventional world and the world of ultimate realites should not be confused in a discussion, and one should keep their distinction in mind. It is actually the same world but each seen from a different angle and in a different context. (Nina adds "What does Jon this of this? We like corrections.) Could be an interesting topic for discussion... Metta, Phil 44981 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:41pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding kenhowardau Hi Tep, ----------------------- KenH : > > > The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice > described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. > > ............ T: > Oh, I did not know that! ------------------------- Sorry, Tep, I genuinely thought that you did. Many DSG members consider the Abhidhamma-pitaka to be a late addition to the Pali Canon. They choose to practise samatha and vipassana in ways that can be reconciled with parts of the Sutta-pitaka provided those parts are read in isolation from the Abhidhamma-pitaka and the ancient commentaries (as well as from certain other parts of the Sutta-pitaka). The commentaries (e.g., to the Satipatthana Sutta) indicate that your form of Buddhist meditation is not found in the Pali Canon. I think Htoo has agreed with this (if I have understood him correctly). I think Htoo insists that his (your) meditation techniques are the genuine teaching of the Buddha but, because Ananda did not recount them, they were never included in the Pali Canon. I think (repeat: think) Bhikkhu Bodhi believes much the same thing. But he is one of those who go further than Htoo, to say that the Abhidhamma is not the actual teaching of the Buddha. So, even if I did misunderstand you, at least I had you in highly esteemed company. :-) -------------------------------------- T: > So why don't you (please kindly) tell me about how the "practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries" is different from "the practice described by Hasituppada and Tep"? -------------------------------------- The conditioned dhammas (eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, visible object, audible object, etc., etc.) described by the Buddha are not the same as our concepts of seeing, hearing, sights and sounds etc. We have to understand that. When we have understood it, we can go on to learn about those conditioned dhammas in detail. Learning leads to intellectual understanding, which leads to direct understanding, which leads to penetrative knowledge of the four noble truths and release from samsara. ------------------------------------ T: > I would be glad to learn from you and, if your explanation makes sense, will gladly correct my mistake. ------------------------------------ Actually, Tep, the above explanation is just my version of detailed explanations you have already received at DSG. They are not easy, and I can't claim to have fully caught on - I still confuse concepts with realities. We all have our preconceived opinions as to what is Dhamma and what is not Dhamma, and we don't change those opinions easily. It is only by studying, considering and sharing with other Dhamma students that we are ever going to attain right understanding. I might add; the job of discussing the ancient texts (as with other texts) doesn't get any easier when some people defend their opinions by moving the goal posts - that is, when they reject and discredit the parts that can't be made to fit. But that's life. :-) ------------------------ <. . .> T: > In Maha-satipatthana Sutta breathing and walking are the meditation objects of the kayanupassana. The Buddha did not make an effort to label them as concepts, or not-concepts. Apparently that knowledge is not conducive to the end results of the meditation. So why should we , the practitioners, worry too much about that ? ------------------------ The Buddha taught Abhidhamma, and so the people who heard the suttas understood that the concept of walking could never be an object of satipatthana. When you and I know we are walking, we know it in much the same way as an animal knows it. However, when an ariyan knows he is walking, he has right understanding. He knows the only ultimately real body is rupa, and he directly knows rupa to be a conditioned phenomenon with the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. That kind of understanding will never come from concentration on walking. It comes from learning about nama and rupa and by applying that learning to the present moment. Ken H 44982 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities. (Lodewijk's comment) lbidd2 Hi Phil, Nina, and Lodewijk, What makes you think you don't understand blue? If blue is just a concept, all the better. How can a blind man like blue? My answer: I don't understand blue because I like blue, or dislike blue, or am bewildered by blue. But this is a matter of not seeing that this liked blue is actually a compact whole of blue and like, both realities. It is this compact whole, dependently arisen but without an own nature (sabhava), that is called conventional reality, that is what is to be investigated. Larry _______________________ Phil: "Hi all When I posted that correction in the last post about "the world as it really is" it reminded me of something interesting I read from Lodewijk. It came when he was suggesting to Nina that she had best be careful about the way she presents ultimate realities: Nina: Yes, we should realize that we are only beginners. We do not really know what ultimate realities, nama and rupa, are. We can only think about them. I understand better that James and others may fell put off when we say: there are only nama and rupa. Lodewijk: It is quite true that there are nama and rupa. However, we should not forget the following: the conventional world and the world of ultimate realities should not be confused in a discussion, and one should keep their distinction in mind. It is actually the same world but each seen from a different angle and in a different context. (Nina adds "What does Jon this of this? We like corrections.) Could be an interesting topic for discussion... Metta, Phil" 44983 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] foamflowers Dear Htoo, # any customary observance or practice # of or relating to or characteristic of religious rituals; "ritual killing" # the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies # stereotyped behavior # of or relating to or employed in social rites or rituals I have rituals I perform every day they help me stay on track and not forget things, ritual is a tool I use for my faulty memory. I have a bowl by my front door that I put my house keys in when I come home and when I go out again I know exactly where they are. Why is ritual wrong if it is done with the awareness of the Moment as in staying aware of sensations as you go about your day? I take ritual like sitting meditation, as a way to replace bad habits and establish good habits in the beginning when I first started meditating. This gave me a quiet place inside myself that I could sit quietly where ever I am. Also ritual has many meanings so maybe I am not clear on how the board uses it. I know that just sitting will not deliver me from suffering because I sit all day at the office and that does not seem to help my ignorant reactions to pleasant and unpleasant sensations. I read Abhidhamma and Sutra daily but that does not seem to help me overcome deeply seated ways of reacting when I get stressed although it does help me understand different aspects of body and mind and also gives me a good understanding of other peoples mind sets. Ritual can be used to establish new and healthy ways of going about my day like driving a car, there are customary practices and observance when driving that a beginner has to remember moment by moment all the time when they are driving or they may get a ticket or even worse kill themselves and or someone else. After driving for some time the rules become second nature and observing the rules during driving is without effort and becomes much easier. It seems to be the same way when learning the Law of Nature. >[Htoo] > I will repeat. > > It is at higher level to attain such state of mind. What state of > mind? It is the state of mind, when all 4 satipatthana are working. > So there is no need to say any 'rituals' or formal or anything. >What matter is 'TO FULLY KNOW NAMA AND RUPA THAT ARISE IN THE SENSE >FIELD'. [Lisa] I would think if someone has attained that state of mind having to do dishes or a ritual of some kind would be done correctly and mindfully. They would be able to see all 'things' as equal. >[Htoo] But for beginners, they do need sappaaya sampajanna. [Lisa] if I understand correctly sampajanna is the constant thorough understanding of impermanence. That is what vipassana meditation teaches and sitting formally is helpful in establishing a well focused mind to see this constant flow. >[Htoo] Just reading and just understanding is not realization. As >soon as he or she has a stroke that attacks all the memory of learned >matters, then there is nothing as Dhamma left. [Lisa] I had often wondered what would happen at death or chronic illness if one loses the ability to feel and think. I would like to hear more about this if there is any material online I have a few articles from my teachers on this, I would like to read more about it. >[Htoo] But for realized ones, whatever they have such as cancers or >strokes or anything, they still have their wisdom. Because wisdom is >from their real experience. As I frequently say, sati, viriya and >panna have to come together. [Lisa]viriya (perseverance, effort), sati (mindfulness, awareness), samadhi (focussed attention) and panna (right understanding of things as they really are). I also think faith and effort are also important adhitthana, and saddha. >[Htoo] Just reading and understanding on facts is not realization. >Actually there may be lobha in thier understanding. lobha: (Sanskrit) [from the verbal root lubh to desire greatly] Covetousness, avarice, stupidity. [Lisa]I agree with that, I've gone back through sutras I've read a few years ago and my understanding is very different than it was a few years back I am know I suffer covetousness of how I see things. >[Htoo] But some intelligent people are still thinking that realizers >are doing rituals like formal meditation. [Lisa]A ritual is just a tool and I am sure someone who understands Dhamma can see that and use it correctly and when done with it but it down and continue on. > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing With Metta, Lisa 44984 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:50pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I have to write this with interruptions from my children. So I will skip much of your post. -------------------------------------- Htoo: > Who is first? Chick or egg? =Sukinder: Don't know why you ask, but are you talking about pariyatti and patipatti? ---------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > :-) No Htoo, unlike you, I don't have anything above a beginner's > knowledge of Abhidhamma. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Here what I see is you quote 'unlike you'. You are referring me as > an 'advanced abhidhamma learner'. Where you know very fine points, I > would not say you are a beginner. > > What is real is I am a beginner. :-)) =Sukinder: I have learnt so much from your writings, which I may not have come upon on my own. Your knowledge is very wide and all comprehensive, but more importantly you are able to look at the same thing from various angles and then show them to others. And this is very remarkable. Also I think you are developing the paramis to a good extent. If you are a beginner, then I am a beginner amongst beginners. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Because I just have 'abhidhammatthasangaha' text. I do not have > Abhidhamma Pitaka. I do not have any of 7 texts of abhidhamma namely > dhammasanganii, vibhanga, dhaatukatha, puggala pannatta, kathavatthu, > yamaka, patthaana. =Sukinder: Yes I know that. Your memory and attention is remarkable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > So I am a genuine beginner. I learned a lot from Sarah, Nina, Rob M, > Rob M, Ken O, Ken H, Kel, you and many others. =Sukinder: No doubt about this too. We can and do learn much from one another. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: > But you cannot be a beginner. Because you do know 'formal practice' > and 'real practice'. =Sukinder: :-) If I may express an opinion based on some speculation. I hope it is not too presumptuous. I think part of the reason your views about practice is what it is today, is because of your respect and reverence for the tradition you were brought up in and the various Teachers that you look up to. But I think that you go too much in that direction when you say that they are "all valid". Conditions are very complex and I can't identify exactly which causes are more likely to lead to the desired result and which are not likely to do so, if at all I can identify the causes and really understand the result. But to say, that they "all" are good. This confuses me about your view!!?? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > Please do bring it to our attention here on DSG itself. I am sure > almost everyone would be interested. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I will bring it when I find it. Actually I should have noted it > in a book for later reference. What I believe is that the teacher is > right and said with good intention. But interpretations are not the > same by different followers. I will do when I find, OK? =Sukinder: Ah, now I remember. You are referring to something K. Sujin said aren't you? You did mention this before, and yes, please do bring it up when you find your source. In the meantime let me mention that I don't believe that any of us who respect her, "believe" her words without reason and some understanding. I don't think any of us would have the degree of confidence, if what she said were not experienced by any degree of panna. --------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > If by this you mean that very rarely anyone of us experiences > patipatti, then I agree. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Please do not mix > > 1.pariyatti > 2.patipatti > 3.pativedha > > I think you are referring 'experiences patipatti' as pativedha. =Sukinder: No I mean patipatti, as in satipatthana. I think for most of us, most of the time, any understanding is only on the `thinking' level. ------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > There are many ion DSG who meditate, I believe. =Sukinder: And here you are saying that those who meditate, that they experience patipatti? In other words you are certain that these `conventional entities' involved in `conventional activities' are experiencing the `dhamma' patipatti? You judged this simply by virtue of what they say they do, i.e. meditate? Or do you understand this from what they have written about dhamma? Do they ever write about the dhammas arising and falling in the moment? Or do they mostly talk about what they "do"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > When you say in 1., "theory first, followed by practice", I think > already there might be a difference in understanding. I really don't > like to draw a line between pariyatti and patipatti except to show > that they have different objects. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There are definitely 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. =Sukinder: And these are simply `conditioned dhammas', do you agree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin: > > I know that pariyatti cannot lead to pativedha without > much, much patipatti. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I believe there is just a thin layer between you and me. Otherwise > our understanding will be almost the same. > > That thin layer might be discovered later. I have declared the points > to Sarah. When I find it, I will bring it up here on DSG forum. =Sukinder: If on identifying the thin line it causes us to agree on this important point of `study and practice', then I will rejoice :-). But I don't picture myself `sitting down to meditate. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin: > But all this is not a matter of choice. But if indeed the > understanding is correct, then one would have to agree that > pariyatti is very important and that Bahussuta is a condition for > realization. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If a condition, it is yes. But it is not an equation. There > definitely are 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha. =Sukinder: Yes, not an equation. However one question I would like to ask you. Is there a time when study should not be encouraged? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > Satipatthana is not a ritual, but any "doing" is, and that wouldn't > be satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Of course. But you need to set up a profile. > > The right satipatthana is only possible for arahats. Otherwise > according to your definition, there will be rituals. :-)) =Sukinder: There are many degrees and levels of satipatthana, from a fleeting experience of the visesa lakkhana up to experiencing the Tilakkhana with full knowledge. None of this however, can arise by the dictate of `self' trying to catch realities, or by following a conventional practice with the idea that this is what leads to experiencing dhammas with sati and panna. And those moments when the sati does arise at whatever level, does not involve any ritual but is `pakati'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > Yes a good concept to explore. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I expected that you will answer when you reply. But you now > just restate what I put. I could not find anything 'formal' in Suttas.\ =Sukinder: As indicated above, if the practice is not pakati, but instead an idea about what it should be and a `self' doing it, then it is ritual. So the idea about time, place, activity thinking that this is more likely to condition sati and panna, and that this is then carried over to the "other" times, this special non- pakati activity is what I label as `formal' mediation. So I am not surprised that you did not find it in the Suttas, because the Buddha did not teach it. Whatever the monks were doing during his time, those were pakati for them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > If you describe The Buddha's method as 'formal practice', there is > no way to be liberated. > > Sukinder: > Are you referring to what he did before he attained enlightenment or > is it something else? Something he taught to do, after he became > Buddha? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Once The Buddha and His disciples were in a forest near a great > village, where they depended for the days for alm rounds. The village > is called Kammaasadhamma. It was in the state called Kuru. Kuru may > be near today Deli. There The Buddha talked to His disciples how > satipatthana had to be kept. > > 'O! Bhikkhus' 'Bhikkhave'. This is a single way for liberation. This > is the only way for liberation. This is the way for liberation > without any alternative routes.' =Sukinder: So you are talking about the teachings of Satipatthana. Where does `formal meditation' fit here? As I understand it, the people of Kuru were not involved in meditation centers and such, but it was pakati for them, in each and every daily activity that they were involved in, to practice satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------- Htoo: > 'Which four? O! Bhikkhus. The disciple > (bhikkhu/practitioner/meditator) has to live looking/noting body, > feeling, mind, dhamma diligently and clearly understandingly so as > not to arise lobha and dosa which are loka'. > > As what The Buddha said is 'to be free from lobha, dosa' and also > invloving 'clearly understanding', which means free from lobha, > satipatthana is DEAD SURE the genuine practice that The Buddha > Himself walked and all other Bodhi walked. =Sukinder: But NOT `formal sitting' or any non-pakati activity. And surely not about observing bodily postures, but rather the paramattha dhammas arisen `by conditions' through the six doorways. And we have to remember that satipatthana is also a pakati dhamma arisen through complex conditions, and deliberate observing is not one of those. ----------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > This is genuine practice that The Buddha taught. If this is accused > of ritual or 'formal practice', by avoiding this practice, no one > would be liberated. =Sukinder: I hope you now understand the distinction I make. Satipatthana, yes, but not formal meditation. One question, is jhana at all necessary in all this? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > > Htoo: > > The problem is that even 'a single sutta' is not fully understood > how one would touch whole tipitaka. > > Sukinder: > The point is not about reading the whole Tipitaka; > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you do not refer to the whole Tipitaka. =Sukinder: I think the important point is not so much to read it all, but not to `leave out' any part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin: > many can do that with wrong understanding. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I think this is referring that many bhikkhus read the whole tipitaka > with wrong understanding. Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, Moegoke > Sayadaw, Shwe Kyin Sayadaw, Mingun Sayadaw and many other bhikkhus > read the whole tipitaka. > > I am considering what you referred to 'many'. =Sukinder: No, I did not have any specific persons in mind. -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > mean a "person meditating". Or else you believe that a person who > follows a certain tradition of practice concentrating on the breath > or sensations, that such a person *is* developing satipatthana. Is > this your position? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha did say 'Idha bhikkhu arannagato vaa rukkhamuulagato vaa > sunnaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallanka.m aabhujitva ujum kaayam > panidhaaya parimukhi sati.m upatthapetva. So satovo assa sati, satova > passa sati. Diigha.m vaa assa santo ''dhiigha.m assassaamii'ti > pajaanaati, dhiigha.m vaa passa santo ...' > > The Buddha did say about 'breath'. > > My position is to straighten the curve. I am not showing any ego, I > am not selling any ego. =Sukinder: Can you translate and give your interpretation of the above? Please do include context and who according to you the audiences were. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > May you be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing =Sukinder: I am quite behind in my reading and I just saw that many new posts have come in. I hope one of them is a reply by you to Ken H. which I am looking forward to. ;-) Metta, Sukinder 44985 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] good wishes buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Nina, Lodewijk (& James), > p.s James, I'm thinking of you today with Cairo back in the news (I just > heard of an attack briefly on the radio but haven't seen a paper yet). > Also, I know you also have a birthday around this time, so I'd like to > share the good wishes below with you as well with metta. Thank you so much for the birthday wishes. I am always amazed when people remember my birthday because I can never seem to do that for others. Hope you enjoy your time at the beach. And yes, there was another bombing and car shooting here in Cairo aimed at tourists. Hopefully my parents won't watch the news. ;-) Metta, James 44986 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:18pm Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: >> As I frequently say, sati, viriya and panna have to come together. > > Just reading and understanding on facts is not realization. Actually > there may be lobha in thier understanding. > > But some intelligent people are still thinking that realizers are > doing > rituals like formal meditation. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Nain ============== Dear Htoo, You continually infer how some dsg members are going the wrong way whereas you are a meditator who presumable sees the real path and is a realizer. I am not sure how you can tell whether some one has sati? You seem to be saying that if someone is sitting concentrating on the breath that this is satI? Do you think that sitting is beter than walkiing, or walking slow is better than walking fast for satipatthana? ================== Htoo:What about walking? It can. But it is moving all the time and there are many things to note while moving. Now I have to note many things as I am very rapidly typing on screen. First I noted that and idea arise and they became fingers' movement and then changed to words on screen. I am doing satipatthana. Yes. This daily life movements can well be satipatthana and this sort of satipatthana can develop panna. But for beginners, preparation DOES NEED. So 'control' is also needed. I have to control not to kill beings. I have to control not to take any ungiven things. ============ Robert:I am not sure understand what the objects of satipatthana are. They are the khandas, the ayatanas, the dahtus. These arise and pass away whether one is walking slow or walking fast. Try and see - does feeling khanda disapear if one walks quickly? In fact feeling khandais hard to kjnow correctly, as anatta. many perople think if they can sense subtle vibrations that this is having vipassana. In one way this is hilarious but actually it is not funny becuase such ideas will eventually destroy the sasana with wronng practice. You say you need control not to kill? Try letting go, try not controlling for 5 miutes and see whether you kill anyone? Or try to have fear, or try not to. There truly is no self and by beginning to see this one will know dhammas arise just as they must. then one can know what the present moment is. I have quoted this before: the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" . This seems so clear, obvious almost, and yet still so many Buddhists want the practice to be different. But the theory of Dhamma and practice are the same, the practice is seeing what the Dhamma teaches. Htooo if you sincerely want me to explain in detail, then reply to this email seriously and in detail. If you make oblique comments or then I will leave it at this. Robertk 44987 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Path is born matheesha333 Sarah, > S: Also see several posts written on this much discussed sutta in 'useful > posts - Yuganaddha' in the files section and let us know if you have > further questions after reading Nina's commentary note and these other > posts. Many thanks S: is there really going to be the insight > and sincerity to know better? M: I should hope so! But I can see what you are saying. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Matheesha, (Evan, Howard and others*) > > --- matheesha wrote: > > I wonder if you could explain in abhidhamma terms what is meant by > > the below phrase 'the path is born', > > > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by > > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it - - > > his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta/In Tandem > .... > S: Also see several posts written on this much discussed sutta in 'useful > posts - Yuganaddha' in the files section and let us know if you have > further questions after reading Nina's commentary note and these other > posts. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s *I'd just like to add some caution about the 'two weeks to jhana and > nibbana path'. I know from my own experience that it's very easy to be > fooled by one's own very strong attachment to self and views when one is > in a Meditation Centre or temple like the one you describe in Sri Lanka. > > If one would so much like to reach all kinds of attainments and then one > is encouraged by highly regarded teachers or bhikkhus to believe one's > unusual experiences are just such, is there really going to be the insight > and sincerity to know better? I apologise if these comments are inappropriate. 44988 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:47pm Subject: Solid Sati Studies ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Way to Awareness: Original resources spoken by the Buddha: Majjhima Nikaya 10: Satipatthana Sutta: The Frames of Reference Digha Nikaya 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference From the XLVIIth Samyutta Nikaya: The grouped Sayings on Awareness: Sakunagghi Sutta (SN XLVII.6) -- The Hawk Makkata Sutta (SN XLVII.7) -- The Monkey Suda Sutta (SN XLVII.8) -- The Cook Cunda Sutta (SN XLVII.13) -- About Cunda Ukkacela Sutta (SN XLVII.14) -- At Ukkacela Sedaka Sutta (SN XLVII.19) -- At Sedaka (1: The Acrobat) Sedaka Sutta (SN XLVII.20) -- At Sedaka (2: The Beauty Queen) Satipatthana-vibhanga Sutta (SN XLVII.40) -- Analysis of the Frames. The Ancient Commentary: The Way of Mindfulness: The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary, by Ven. Soma Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication, 1981) Some Modern Commentaries: The Foundations of Mindfulness (Wheel 19), by Ven. Nyanasatta Thera, (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1993). Satipatthana - The Direct Way to Realization. by Ven. Analayo. (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 2003). Buddhist Publication Society: P.B. Box: 61, No. 54, Sangharaja Mawatha, Kandy, Sri Lanka. Tel: 0094 81 2237283, 0094 81 2238901 Fax: 0094 81 2223679 E-mail: bps@... Website: http://www.bps.lk ____________________________________________________________ PS: Today is Uposatha Observance Day. May many win the supreme & sublime virtue... Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 44989 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 0:51am Subject: Like and colours (was Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realites) philofillet Hi Larry, and all I'd like to take the liberty of starting a thread about what you raise below. (The other topic seems much more general) It's one of the things I've been wondering about - the intrinsic pleasantness of visible objects etc. This will give me a chance to understand it a little better. Thanks. > What makes you think you don't understand blue? If blue is just a > concept, all the better. Ph: Since I am just starting out on Abhidhamma, I want to stick to the teaching of Abhidhamma as closely as possible, though I'm sure there are a few differences here and there in interpretation. What is the Abhidhamma teaching here? I think I learned that visible object is usually experienced as colour. Is that right? Colour is a reality, but once it is named, as blue, it becomes a concept? No, that's not right. What is the "official" teaching in Vism about colour as concept or reality? Thanks for filling me in. > I don't understand blue because I like blue, or dislike blue, > or am bewildered by blue. Ph: Because mind proliferates into likes and dislkes so quickly visible object is not seen and understood? Is that what you mean here? Or there is like already in the blue, if you will - in which case visible object can not be seen as bare object? > But this is a matter of not seeing that this > liked blue is actually a compact whole of blue and like, both realities. > It is this compact whole, dependently arisen but without an own nature > (sabhava), that is called conventional reality, that is what is to be > investigated. Ph: Do you mean that it is by investigating the conceptual experience of liking blue that we get to the realities of like and blue, just as it is by investigating the concept "person" that we get down to the realities of the khandas? Or do you mean that we should just be content with the conceptual reality as it is, be content with seeing a person without getting at the paramattha dhammas that are really at work? Can a conventional reality (ie a concept) be said to be "dependently arisen?" I don't know. Another question about liking and blue. Visible object, while it can only give rise to neutral feeling (unlike object that impinges through body sense) is classified as pleasant or unpleasant object, right? Thus akusala vipaka or kusala vipaka play out through this pleasant or unpleasant object? Nina gave the example of an infant liking a ballon and reaching for it long before it can possibly know that a balloon is thought to be a likable thing. Does this apply to colours? Rob M posted something about the intrinsic impact of red, I think, but I can't remember what it was. Perhaps it was when he explained the process of seeing and then liking the red maple leaf on a Canadian flag. If you are out there, Rob, can you refresh my memory - what was it you said about the intrinsic impact of red? Sorry if that's a jumble. I'm taking my first steps in this territory. Metta, Phil 44990 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations nilovg Dear Tep, Hasituppada and all, A very important question about accumulations, it has a far reaching influence on how we see the practice, I think. First some general remarks. Each citta falls away together with the accompanying cetasikas, they are impermanent. At the same time, we can notice that good and bad qualities are accumulated, so that similar ones arise again. Not the same ones. People are born with different talents, inclinations, skills. Where do these inclinations come from? From past lives. And also during this life we can see that we accumulate good and bad inclinations. When a child is taught generosity it is easier for him to be generous than someone who was not taught in that way. Good and bad habits are formed also during this life. We learn certain things in life and these are remembered later on. Saññaa is a condition to remember former experiences. It is not easy to understand how cittas are conditioned, because there are so many factors operating. Our surroundings, good or bad friends, also these influence our behaviour. Each citta that arises falls away, but it is succeeded by a following citta. Past lives, this life, future lives are an uninterrupted stream of cittas. This is called contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya, in the Abhidhamma, in the Book on Conditional Relations. Each citta that arises and falls away is succeeded by a following citta and thus all accumulated good and bad inclinations, all experiences in life are as it were carried on to the next citta. That is why not only kamma, but also latent tendencies, and good qualities are accumulated. In the suttas we see many texts on kamma that can produce result later on. The kusala cetana or akusala cetana falls away with the citta, but they are accumulated and can produce result later on. We learn about natural strong dependance condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya), and this includes good and bad accumulated tendencies that condition the arising of kusala citta and akusala citta later on. We read in the Jatakas that the Buddha spoke about people who had similar behaviour in past lives. We should not underestimate the power of this condition. Someone who is in bad company may come to commit evil deeds, one never knows the amount of akusala one has accumulated in the past. It helps one to see the danger of akusala. It also helps us to have confidence in accumulating kusala, such as the perfections. Even a moment of sincere generosity, without thinking of one's own gain, is a beneficial condition for similar ones to arise later on. So it is with sati and right understanding of a reality. It may be rare but it is accumulated. Vipassana develops in stages of insight. It develops. That means: it arises and falls away, but it can grow, even to supramundane understanding. Understanding about accumulations helps one not to become discouraged when progress is hardly noticeable. One knows that sati and paññaa have conditions for their arising and that there is no self who can induce their arising. Hasituppada thinks that one should only take the Suttanta as guide for the practice, not the Abhidhamma. By Abhidhamma I do not mean the book, thus, it is not helpful to practise book in hand and try to catch all dhammas one learnt about. The suttas are full of Abhidhamma and are a wonderful guide for the practice. Take: S.N. IV, 52, The World. A monk asked the Buddha what the world is. This reminds us to be aware of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. This is the way to learn that it is impermanent. The Abhidhamma explains some general principles in detail, such as processes of cittas, and conditions, and this is most helpful for the practice. Otherwise we may be ignorant of the power of accumulations. Nina. op 30-04-2005 02:54 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: I have been waiting for the right moment to ask you to compare the > accmulation of Sati to the latent tendency of anusayas. 44991 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) nilovg Hi Phil, op 01-05-2005 04:18 schreef Philip op philco777@...: Can you say a bit about how this understanding is developed? I mean it's one thing to realize that the world as we experience it or as we go through our daily life is not the world as it really is - We understand it intellectually, that there are different experiences through different doorways - but still the world appears to as a world of people and things and there's a lot of kilesa in daily life, so what is the key to developing understanding that cuts though this? > Kh Sujin: "To understand reality *right now* Jon: Well why can't we do that? Even if now we're talking about it.. Kh Sujin (interjecting quite forcefully) Beccause no one can do that! Jon (laughs a little) > Phil: Obviously that *right now* is where the key lies. N: No thinking, deliberating, reasoning about how direct understanding can be brought about. That distracts from the visible object or sound that appears now already. No one can *do* that. There may be an idea of me, who can do something. Impossible. There are only conditioned elements. These arise already when there are conditions for their arising, and there is no time to sit down and think first: what shall I do. How could anyone order sati, confidence, shame of akusala, wish-to-do, determination etc. to all arise together and assist the kusala citta with paññaa? The more we study all these sobhana cetasikas in the Visuddhimagga, the clearer this becomes. Nina. 44992 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities. (Lodewijk's comment) nilovg Hi Phil, op 01-05-2005 04:25 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Lodewijk: It is quite true that there are nama and rupa. However, > we should not forget the following: the conventional world and the > world of ultimate realites should not be confused in a discussion, > and one should keep their distinction in mind. It is actually the > same world but each seen from a different angle and in a different > context. (Nina adds "What does Jon this of this? We like > corrections.) N: Lodewijk now says that this way of formulating is not correct. I could add: see my post about the world: it crumbles away. That gives the solution. The five khandhas are the world. But in a discussion we should clarify about the difference between the conventional world and the world in the ultimate sense, that is right. Nina. 44993 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:34am Subject: Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? christine_fo... Hello all, I was in a discussion with a Dhamma friend who said: 'As you all know the state of mind at the moment of death is critical in conditioning the next rebirth. My friend and I have had similar experiences this year. In her case her mother died of non-hodkins lymphoma, after a prolonged battle with the disease, she spent her final weeks in a state of profound dementia. In my case my mother died of a rapidly progressing type of bone cancer, in her final days she was heavily medicated on morphine to control the pain that was wracking her body. So the question, what befalls someone who dies while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or sedated mind effect their rebirth?' It is a serious issue, since many people now die in hospitals often under heavy medication. metta, Chris 44994 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) philofillet Hi Nina > Kh Sujin (interjecting quite forcefully) Beccause no one can do > that! Nina > > No one can *do* that. There may be an idea of me, who can do something. > Impossible. There are only conditioned elements. These arise already when > there are conditions for their arising, and there is no time to sit down and > think first: what shall I do. > How could anyone order sati, confidence, shame of akusala, wish-to- do, > determination etc. to all arise together and assist the kusala citta with > paññaa? Ph: And it's not as passive as it might sound. "Conditions can be cultivated" is something I have learned. A moment of shame of akusala, for example, will condition another one, though we don't know when it will arise. We can be confident that we are making progress moment by moment as long as we don't cling to results. I find the exchange between Jon and Kh Sujin very encouraging for some reason. Any time we are reminded that there is no self that can control things we can relax a little and let go of the story about person named so and so becoming an enlightened person. There is so much trying hard in that story, and therefore so much frustration and discouragement. It is about cittas and cetasikas, about nama and rupa, not about people, when you get down to it. If we understand that, then it *can* be about people again, but people seen with right understanding. This is more in response to to the other post, I guess - about conventional vs ultimate world. > The more we study all these sobhana cetasikas in the Visuddhimagga, > the clearer this becomes. A question - I have a copy of Visuddhimagga (thanks to the generosity of a Dhamma friend) but I have not really studied it yet, except the chapter on Brahma-Viharas. I am wanting to finish CMA, which is taking a long time to read and re-read. Why do you mention Visuddhimagga in particular? Because it is much more thorough? Why is Visuddhimagga so much better than your book "Cetasikas?" since in that book you refer to not only Vis but other commentaries as well. (I guess I am asking you to condition more reading of Visuddhimagga!) Metta, Phil 44995 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - the word should. nilovg Hi Larry, op 30-04-2005 21:11 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > Can you give an example of prompted insight? N: It is hard to know whether the first type of mahaa-kusala citta arises which is unprompted, or the second type, which is prompted. Being unprompted tells us actually something about the quality and power of kusala. The second one is less powerful, it need not be induced by someone else. An example of the sod type could be: the Buddha says: Bhikkhus, do not be neglectful. Be aware. His words can be a condition to be aware at this moment. Nina. 44996 From: nina Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:51am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 156, and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 156. Intro: The Visuddhimagga gives a summary of the eight mahaa-kusala cittas and deals with the sobhana cetasikas accompanying them. The eight mahaa-kusala cittas are: 1) accompanied by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, unprompted 2) accompanied by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, prompted 3) accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted 4) accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, prompted 5) accompanied by indifferent feeling, connected with wisdom, unprompted 6)accompanied by indifferent feeling, connected with wisdom, prompted 7) accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted 8)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted ------------------ The Vis. XIV, 131, mentions the Œconstant¹ (niyata or fixed) cetasikas of the khandha of formations accompanying the first type of mahaa-kusala citta. They are: (i) contact, (ii) volition, (iii) applied thought, (iv) sustained thought, (v) happiness (interest), (vi) energy, (vii) life, (viii) concentration, (ix) faith, (x) mindfulness, (xi) conscience, (xii) shame, (xiii) non-greed, (xiv) non-hate, (xv) non-delusion, (xvi) tranquility of the [mental] body, (xvii) tranquility of consciousness. Furthermore there are the six pairs: (xviii) lightness of the [mental] body, (xix) lightness ofconsciousness, (xx) malleability of the [mental] body, (xxi) malleability of consciousness, (xxii) wieldiness of the [mental] body, (xxiii) wieldiness of consciousness, (xxiv) proficiency of the [mental] body, (xxv) proficiency of consciousness, (xxvi) rectitude of the mental body, (xxvii) rectitude of consciousness. --------- Further, there are the four what-so-ever states (supplementary factors): (xxviii) zeal (desire), (xxix) resolution, (xxx) attention (bringing to mind), (xxxi) specific neutrality (equanimity, tatramajjhattataa). And the five inconstant are these: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. ****** Text Vis.: So these are the thirty-six formations that should be understood to come into association with the first profitable consciousness of the sense sphere (1). ------------- N: The Tiika explains formations, sankhaara, as being the dhammas of sa²nkhaarakkhandha, in this connection. This is the khandha that includes all cetasikas, apart from feeling and saññaa. Under the heading of the khandha of formations there are thirtysix cetasikas, but, as the Tiika explains, elsewhere thirty-eight are mentioned. The two cetasikas of feeling and saññaa, remembrance, are included elsewhere. These two, which accompany each citta, are not among the khandha of formations. ----------- Text Vis.: And as with the first, so with the second (2), the only difference here being promptedness. ---------------- N: The Tiika explains that just as the citta, also the dhammas that accompany the second type of citta are prompted. When the kusala citta is prompted, it is urged on by oneself or others. It does not arise spontaneously, without any hesitation, like the first type. ---------------- Text Vis.: (3)-(4) Those associated with the third (3) should be understood as all the foregoing except non-delusion (xv). Likewise with the fourth (4), the only difference here being promptedness. --------------- N: The third and the fourth type are without amoha or paññaa. -------- Text Vis.: (5)-(6) All those stated in the first instance, except happiness (v), come into association with the fifth (5). Likewise with the sixth (6),the only difference here being promptedness. ----------- N: In the case of kaamaavacara cittas, piiti (rapture, here translated as happiness), arises only with the citta that is accompanied by pleasant feeling, somanassa. The fifth and sixth types of mahaa-kusala citta are accompanied by indifferent feeling and thus, they are without rapture. -------------- Text Vis.: (7)-(8) [Those associated] with the seventh (7) should be understood as [the last] except non-delusion (xv). Likewise with the eighth (8), the only difference here being promptedness. ------------ N: They are without paññaa, accompanied by indifferent feeling. **** Conclusion: We should remember that the sobhana cetasikas assist the mahaa-kusala citta, they are a condition for its arising. Wholesome energy (viriya) does not collapse, it conditions courage for the performing of kusala. Confidence in kusala purifies the citta, it has confidence in the benefit of kusala. Sati is non-forgetful when there is an opportunity for daana, siila, samatha or the investigation of realities. Shame and fear of blame (hiri and ottappa) see the danger and disadvantage of akusala, they have disgust of evil and dread it. Alobha is detachment, there is detachment with each kind of kusala. Adosa is non-aversion; there is no boredom or impatience when kusala citta arises. Amoha or paññaa that arises with four types of mahaa-kusala citta illuminates the object experienced at that moment, it dispels the darkness of delusion. The six pairs of calm, lightness and so on are the condition for kusala citta to be smooth, gentle and alert, to have skill and competence in kusala, and to be truthful, without selfish motives; to be without mental rigidity and to be openminded to the Dhamma. Desire-to-do, chanda, is zeal for kusala, it is a condition for performing it without hesitation, reluctance or reserve. Resolution, adhimokkha, is convinced about the object, in this case, the object of kusala. It is firmly convinced of the benefit of kusala. Manasikaara, attention, leads the accompanying dhammas to the object in a wholesome way. Equanimity, tatramajjhattataa, prevents deficiency and excess, it inhibits partiality. The abstinences arise when there is an opportunity for abstaining from akusala. Compassion and sympathetic joy are directed towards living beings and they arise when there is an opportunity for them. Kusala citta and its accompanying cetasikas arise together just for a moment, and then they all fall away. They only last for an extremely short moment, but they are accumulated, so that there are conditions for the arising again of kusala citta. There are also other conditions necessary for the arising of kusala citta. The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 350) states as to wholesome consciousness that this arises The four favorable conditions are dwelling in a suitable country, the support of good people, right aspirations, past practice of meritorious deeds. It is beneficial to learn about the manifold conditions for kusala citta, so that we shall have more understanding of its nature of anattaa. We cannot make it arise whenever we wish, there is no self who can be master of it. ******* Nina. 44997 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities. (Lodewijk's comment) philofillet Hi Nina > > Lodewijk: It is quite true that there are nama and rupa. However, > > we should not forget the following: the conventional world and the > > world of ultimate realites should not be confused in a discussion, > > and one should keep their distinction in mind. It is actually the > > same world but each seen from a different angle and in a different > > context. (Nina adds "What does Jon this of this? We like > > corrections.) > N: Lodewijk now says that this way of formulating is not correct. > I could add: see my post about the world: it crumbles away. That gives the > solution. The five khandhas are the world. > But in a discussion we should clarify about the difference between the > conventional world and the world in the ultimate sense, that is right. Ph: It's still an interesting point to think about. And the rest of the post I quoted from, in which Lodewijk says we have to be careful about the way we present ultimate realities. Sometimes I am too careful. I have confidence to talk about the Buddha's teaching hre, but when I am with people who don't know Dhamma at all, I clam up. Even with Naomi. I know it's not cold and inhuman that people are reduced to nama and rupa, but I know it would sound that way to someone who doesn't know the Buddha's teaching, and even, evidently, to many people who do! Perhaps this is where Brahama-Viharas can help. We can come to live more and more under the influence of the B.Vs, thanks to conditions. BTW, do you remember last year I posted about a moment in which I was able to see Naomi as paramattha dhammas, but not myself. You and Lodewijk agreed that you would find it easier to see oneself as nama and rupa than to see the loved one in those terms - that is much harder. Well, a year later, now I find that I feel the same way as you two. It is much harder to see Naomi as rupa and nama, and a little easier to understand myself in those terms. I don't know if that is because of more attachement to Naomi, or better understanding of myself. A bit of both, I guess. Metta, Phil 44998 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2005 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) nilovg Hi Phil, op 01-05-2005 11:50 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Ph: And it's not as passive as it might sound. "Conditions can be > cultivated" is something I have learned. A moment of shame of > akusala, for example, will condition another one, though we don't > know when it will arise. We can be confident that we are making > progress moment by moment as long as we don't cling to results. --------- N: That is it. Therefore I tried to explain to Tep about accumulations. It gives us more confidence in accumulating kusala and understanding, even if it is a little at a time. No passivity, we remember the Buddha's words: do not be neglectful. --------- Ph:.... There > is so much trying hard in that story, and therefore so much > frustration and discouragement. It is about cittas and cetasikas, > about nama and rupa, not about people, when you get down to it. .. ------------- N: Yes, I feel concerned when people think that they *must* do this or that and when I hear about headaches so that they cannot continue. -------------- Ph quotes: The more we study all these sobhana cetasikas in the > Visuddhimagga, >> the clearer this becomes. ...I am wanting to finish CMA, which is taking a long time to read and re-read. Why do you mention Visuddhimagga in particular? --------- N: Because I am undertaking this (lifelong) work with Larry. I am glad, it gives me new angles. Now we just finished sobhana cetasikas. It really helps me every day to have more understanding of anatta. Especially since I try to explain the goal of study of this or that para. Only to understand this moment. But reading and considering accumulates as sankhaarakkhandha. We can see that we today just understand a very tiny bit more than last year. Ph: Because it is much more thorough? Why > is Visuddhimagga so much better than your book "Cetasikas?" since in > that book you refer to not only Vis but other commentaries as well. N: In Cetasikas I give other details, and for the Vis. I follow the Tiika which has not been translated into English. The one complements the other. Besides, I consult many other books, like the Book of Aanalysis, and the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma), and the Dispeller. My desk is always a big pile of books. When reading CMA, why not combine it with our studies of Vis? Soon we go into akusala cetasikas. One can read different works at the same time, it helps. Visuddhimagga you get it here on line and do not need to take up the book. But it depends on *your* citta at this or that moment. Nina. 44999 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:02am Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Htoo, Htooo if you sincerely want me to explain in detail, then reply to this email seriously and in detail. If you make oblique comments or then I will leave it at this. Robertk -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Robert K, Thanks for your invitation. Could you please explain me in detail? This is serious request. Apology for not replying in detail as 'snipping' is essential here. I am just a beginner. I am just a learner. I am flexible. I am malleable. I have been exploring Dhamma. I am not an advanced learner like you. Actually I have been learning many things from you and your posts not only in DSG but in other lists. I am always smiling whenever I read back my old posts. I am not a perfected person. I am not a guru. I am not a teacher. You may assume that 'Htoo is continually shooting arrow one after another in many lists just to show his ego'. or you may not. But there are some who did and I believe that there are some who do. I am a real learner. But I use different learning methods of my own. So this reply is a very serious reply to you and I do want you explain me in detail as you intended me to understand. With much respect, Htoo Naing