45600 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2.function> 3... dacostacharles Hi Larry, I hope you don't mine me butting in. The answer to the questions is "yes" but you conclusion is wrong. The term "move" relates to a change in position only, not a change in state or a ceasing to exits. It would be more accurate to say they "change" and "cease to exist". Now if you view these things as permanent, then they would just move in and out of awareness, as well as get confused with a similar things (giving rise to the illusion of movement and change). It is really a question of ones view. CharlesD PS: According to physics, red does not really move, it is a state of something else that moves, changes, and ceases(the wave length of light through ...). ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2005 06:55 Subject: RE: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2.function> 3... Larry, Is consciousness conditioned? Is feeling conditioned? Is perception conditioned? Are mental formations conditioned? If the answer to these questions is "yes" (and it is) then it moves. Don't know about red but I would say the same thing if red is indeed a thing. Evan -------------------- Hi TG, Does consciousness move, feeling, perception, mental formations? Is red a thing that moves? How does movement work? Larry 45601 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view dacostacharles Hi Matheesha Your point --- "A sothapanna has no self view, but a sense of self still persists. ie - he still automatically uses it in his thinking out of force of habit, even though he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that there is no Self to be found anywhere." --- is good, however I would like to add: If by sothapanna you mean those that have entered the steam of Dharama, it should be understand that though these individuals have the right view, they have to practice it regularly because the process of automatically taming the desires is not yet accomplished. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: matheesha To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 14 May, 2005 00:07 Subject: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view Hello Andrew T, A sothapanna has no self view, but a sense of self still persists. ie - he still automatically uses it in his thinking out of force of habit, even though he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that there is no Self to be found anywhere. I could find you the exact sutta which explains this but im feeling a bit lazy right now, so pleas excuse me! I hope it is not a life or death matter. Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hello all > > Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency > of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI > note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. > A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a > sotapanna still has papanca. Right? > How do we reconcile this? > Andrew T 45602 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:37am Subject: What is real ... dacostacharles I am getting the impression that all of you who like to distinguish between what is a reality and ... (using Abdharma as the basis for the belief) are really trying to say that uncompounded, unconditioned, and permanent things are the only reality (or ultimate realities). Is this true? charlesD PS: I am trying to clearly understand your definitions. 45603 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism dacostacharles I think the Buddha criticized ritual because most (99.9%) of the rituals he saw (in ancient India) could do nothing to aid in the escape from samsara or end suffering. Rituals that instilled principles like humility and kindness the Buddha liked because he felt they ripened the mind for his Dharma. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 07 May, 2005 17:44 Subject: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism Lisa wrote: Ritual the tension between desire and transcendence. The Buddha criticized ceremony for pomp and circumstance and blind faith, especially ritual bathing and mortification ceremonies and ritual sacrifices of animals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because they should have been criticized. For example, if there was a ritual that 'when a husband died, the wife had to jump into fire and die' is that ritual fair for that woman? The Buddha had great compassion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: He did, integrate some rituals of his own into his teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Beautiful rituals ; beneficial rituals; profitable rituals should be integrated. But you have to define 'rituals' to clearly speak. Rituals of homage etc are in a way good thing. ... 45604 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self/Evan Evan_Stamato... Hi Christine, Yes, I agree with you - and I did mention in one of the other responses I sent on this topic that it could have been phychological on my behalf. Because I was expecting something, I felt something. Thanks, I received your details and I'll send you the CD hopefully by this weekend. With Metta, Evan Hello Evan, In addition to the two possibilities you list ... Why do you think it was metta in the sense the Buddha means, coming from the Bhikkhu? Giving it a particular label doesn't mean that's what it is. If it wasn't a 'group subjective' experience ... it may also have been some form of psychic power - a manipulation of your experience - but not necessarily metta? Not arguing ... this is just picking over some other possibilities ... But your description of your experience with the Ven. Mahinda is quite fascinating. Yes, I would like a copy of the CD you mention ... it is kind of you to offer. I'll send details off-list. metta and thanks, Chris 45605 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:38pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah {Attn.: Htoo, Jon and KenH. Butting-in is welcome! } - My earlier story of a personal walking meditation is "meditation while walking" in which the mindfulness and the thorough comprehension (sampajanna) are with the "body in the body" ( walking, stopping, standing and turning back - iriyapatha). The result has been quite good in the sense that both rupa and nama arise with no attachment, while sati and sampajanna are unbroken, sometimes. The Satipatthana Sutta should be well understood. It is not possible for anyone to understand this sutta when there is a bias -- a clinging to the extreme view that 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Sarah (to Htoo in # 45575): Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . As you have written, panna or vipassana can only understand or have insight into ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas), not into concepts or ideas. Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover up the understanding of realities as anicca and the clinging to an idea of these postures as being real and at one's command that reinforces the idea of atta. T: (replying to the above remarks): Firstly, body positions and movements (iriyapatha, postures) are "body in the body", or kaaye-kaayaa, according to the Buddha in DN 22 . The Buddha categorized each of the followings as "body in the body": in- and-out-breathing; body postures and minor body movements (looking, bending or stretching limbs); the 32 body parts (hairs, nails, teeth, etc.); the primary elements(dhatus); dead body (at various satges of decay) discarded in the charnel ground. These are not ultimate realities, even the 4 dhatus in the body are concepts. Secondly, the understanding that any kaye-kaya is impermanent is vipassana . The mindfulness (or awareness) on each of these kaye-kaya things is for the training of tranquility (samatha); the sampajanna that clearly understands the naama and the ruupa at the present moment is the consequence of vipassana. In the "body in body" contemplation both sati and sampajanna are developed; the same as in "my" walking meditation! :-)) The DN 22 Commentary explains that the samatha's calm (or tranquillity) is "stated by mindfulness" while "insight(vipassana) is stated by clear comprehension" : DN 22 Commentary: "... the quietude that is obtained [patiladdha samatha] by way of the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana] is stated by mindfulness; insight [vipassana] by clear comprehension; ..." So, Sarah, it seems that your obsessed self-view jumped out again, when you wrote : "Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover up the understanding of realities as anicca the clinging to an idea of these postures as being real and at one's command that reinforces the idea of atta." Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > (snipped) > ... > S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . As you have written, panna or vipassana can only understand or have insight into ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas), not into concepts or ideas. Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover up the understanding of realities as anicca and the clinging to an idea of these postures as being real and at one's command that reinforces the idea of atta. > > I think that as soon as there is an idea of focusing on lifting the foot > or any other concepts or realities in order for satipatthana to arise, we > forget everything we've read about paramattha dhammas arising by > conditions, not by a self and instead of developing sati and panna of what appears right now – whether a citta, cetasika or rupa, there is an attempt by Self to select a different object. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 45606 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self/Evan Evan_Stamato... Hi Again Christine, I would like to add more to this. Some more interesting coincidences/metta that I would like to relate. Ven. Mahinda during the retreat mentioned that metta is very powerfull and can be used to get people to do things or change their attitudes or whatever (not being very specific here) by using a certain technique. He assured us that this would happen withing a week of practicing in this way. So, having come out of the retreat, I decided to do something about repairing a relationship I had with someone close to me. Every day, when I meditated, I used this technique to ask this person to call me (I wasn't in constant contact with them and I should have been). Guess what? Yep, you guessed it, after only about a week of using this metta meditation technique, this person called me! Coincidence or metta? You decide. This has worked on other occasions as well so it wasn't an isolated incident. Anyway, I'll send you the CD and if you have practiced metta a few times and are interested in knowing about this other technique, just ask me about it and I'll let you know how to do that. With Metta, Evan Hi Christine, Yes, I agree with you - and I did mention in one of the other responses I sent on this topic that it could have been phychological on my behalf. Because I was expecting something, I felt something. Thanks, I received your details and I'll send you the CD hopefully by this weekend. With Metta, Evan Hello Evan, In addition to the two possibilities you list ... Why do you think it was metta in the sense the Buddha means, coming from the Bhikkhu? Giving it a particular label doesn't mean that's what it is. If it wasn't a 'group subjective' experience ... it may also have been some form of psychic power - a manipulation of your experience - but not necessarily metta? Not arguing ... this is just picking over some other possibilities ... But your description of your experience with the Ven. Mahinda is quite fascinating. Yes, I would like a copy of the CD you mention ... it is kind of you to offer. I'll send details off-list. metta and thanks, Chris 45607 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self matheesha333 Hi Tep, T:> I am sorry to inform you that both Web links of yours only led to an error > message. M: :) yes,I see the problem. Try cutting and pasting the whole thing (not just the bits which get underlined when the cursor is above it) into your browser, and pressing 'go'. > T: The panna-vimutti is not separated from samatha at all, according to > the following sutta! M: You are right. But do look at the kitagiri sutta of the MN from the link I posted. These two suttas seem to contradict each other about whether immaterial jhaana is present in the panna vimutta or not. I suspect the MN sutta is correct as the AN suttas (including the one which defines Released in Both ways) seems to talk of the required jhanas in `stock phrases'. T: Of course, the arahathood is the end result, but shouldn't > the starting point (to develop the lokuttara panna) be far away from that? M: IMO all paths have Samatha and vipassana components. (all seemingly except one in which the Buddha asks a monk to use void as the meditative object when the monk says he is incapable of Samatha and vipassana…even this I'm no sure now). To begin with one can either start off with Samatha or vipassana (or both simultaneously), or `living without corruptions of insight' as per Yuganadda sutta/AN. Even in the latter there is mention of it leading into appeasement and calm. But rather than looking at the exceptions, if we focus on what is obvious, there is clear need for Samatha and vipassana. Lokuttara panna. Are you talking of magga & phala-citta here? Jhana would be essential if that were the case. But then the way to give rise to that jhana is with simple jhana practice (sutta) and khanika samadhi giving rise to aanantharika samadhi (commentary). I prefer to stay with what 'sutta' practice. >T: So samatha & vipassana implies sati & sampajanna M: Excellent. While I wouldnt equate sati with samadhi, the derivation is worthwhile noting. Thanks for that one Tep. Metta Matheesha 45608 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (376) matheesha333 Hi Htoo, I agree with your comments on kusala and bhaavana. Can I ask you how you find time to contribute so much to this group? :) metta Matheesha 45609 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view matheesha333 Hi Charles, > If by sothapanna you mean those that have entered the steam of Dharama, it should be understand that though these individuals have the right view, they have to practice it regularly because the process of automatically taming the desires is not yet accomplished. > > CharlesD M: Yes, of course. Might I also add that there are other views other than self view. It is possible to be attached to all kinds of views and give rise to papanca. metta Matheesha 45610 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah and Htoo - Having adopted the "Butting-in Allowed" policy, I am going ahead with my brief comment. :->)) The one-track central theme of Sarah that keeps repeating; "self", "control", "panna', "present moment", and "conditioned", is not flexible because it is biased. Nothing is wrong with the Dhamma; the Abhidhamma and the Paramattha- dhamma are inside the Teachings (the Tipitaka). But the way the "central theme" is applied is wrong, ineffective, and, therefore, not convincing. No doubt why Htoo kept repeating, "I don't understand it". > Htoo: > > You put these complicated. I do not understand your message above. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I do not understand. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I really do not understand. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Not that clear. > Tep: I understand you, Htoo, why you did not understand. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > You wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > >--- htootintnaing wrote: > > So 'gacchanto vaa gacchaanaamii'ti pajaanaati' is full of sense. > > I do not know what you are referring to 'self'. > ... > > S: So panna can only know the particular characteristic (or reality) > which appears at this very moment or when we are walking. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. Only citta can know that. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 45611 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:31pm Subject: What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 philofillet Hi Charles > Thanks again Philip, > > What does "sila" and "dana" mean? I thought this question would be a good opportunity for me to review some passages I quoted (and commented on) from Kh Sujin's "Deeds of Merit" about a year ago, but I can't find them. Here is a summary from the above book. YOu'll see that dana is generosity and sila is morality and they make up two of the three branches of meritous deeds. I always keep in mind something I learned from Kh Sujin - if we don't appreciate the importance of dana and sila, we won't be able to develop panna. The thought of developing panna is so sexy that I overlook sila and dana. Metta, Phil 45612 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:35pm Subject: What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 philofillet Hi again Charles Oops. I snipped the relevant passage by mistake. Here it is from "Deeds of Merit" by Kh Sujin, available at www.dhammastudy.com Summarizing the ten meritorious actions, they are: giving, transference of ones merit and appreciation of someone elses kusala, which are ways of daana, generosity, abstention from akusala, paying respect to those who deserve it and helping, which are ways of siila, the development of calm, listening to the Dhamma and explaining it, and the development of right understanding, which are ways of bhaavanaa, mental development. There is another meritorious action which can go together with all kinds of kusala, namely, the correction of ones views. Seeing kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is one way of correction of ones views, but there are many degrees of it Metta, Phil 45613 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results philofillet Hi Charles, and all Ch:> Allow me to boldly show my arrogance, or Lions Roar, (which ever term you prefer). > > I choose to interpret/understand the term "Noble" as one who is moral, has tamed his/her desires. I choose to interpret/understand the term "disciples" as students of, instructed ones in, the dharma (way). I choose to interpret/understand the term "worldlings" as those that are caught up in self centered thinking, to the extent that morality is not really an issue to them. Ph: Yes, this "choose to interpret" is what we all do with suttas I think, unless we have help from commentaries, or read suttas with knowledge of Abhidhamma, which helps to prevent subjective interpretations. Techinically speaking, you're wrong here - it's pretty clear that "noble" means ariyan (ie at least sotapanna) but I think you know what you're doing. In another post today you lay out some personal theories, but add that you're having fun doing it, and I think having fun is important with Dhamma. ON the other hand, I would take care about setting off on personal interpretation journeys through suttas. How about this for an idea? Accept that "noble" does *not* refer to us and go from there. Maybe we can still benefit from reading about the practices of enligthened people. For example, this morning I read Samyutta Nikaya 22:1, Nakulapita. "And how, householder, is one afflicted in body but not afflicted in mind? Here, householder, the instructed noble disciple, who is a seer of the noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma (phil's note - this is *not* the worldling, not us) does not regard form as self or self as possessing form (snip) he does not live obssessed by the notions: "I am form, form is mine" As he lives unobsessed by these notions, that form of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, there do not arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair." Now, reading this sutta based in your interpretation, we might find ourselves thinking that we can achieve this kind of detachment. And might fool ourselves into thinking we had done so. Better, I think, to realize that this degree of detachment is beyond us for now, but feel gratitude to the Buddha whose teaching makes it possible to aspire to reach this detachment someday, and also, perhpas, benefit to a certain degree from a shallow intellectual detachment, a pale imitation of the noble disciple, which - as long as it is done knowingly, with awareness that it is not the real thing - can still be helpful. I'm afraid that because of the easy access to suttas through the internet, a lot of people are plunging into them and interpreting them in an overly-confident way. I know I did, and still do at times. This can provide us with a feelgood experience, but doesn't bring us any closer to liberation, I think. Which brings up your next point. > Some miserable people need desperately to be fooled for hour (of meditation) into thinking that they are happy and can remain happy if they give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done. And they may need to be fooled, for periods, into believing that they can, both give up and do ... Ph: As I was posting yesterday, re intentionally using metta, I appreciate that Dhamma can have helpful therapeutic benefits even when there is wrong view. I read somewhere, maybe in Tibetan Buddhism, there is talk of the compassion wing and the wisdom wing of Dhamma. Maybe in the compassion wing there is room for interpreting teachings in a way that comfort us even though they do not lead to developing wisdom. As we know, the Buddha is decribed as a teacher who helps many different people in many different ways. > Philip, can you explain the following a little more: > "Another one of my hunches tells me that when people place emphasis > on developing sati intentionally, by formally meditating, believing > that it increases the likelihood of sati increasing, they thereby > come to believe that in daily life there is less likelihood of sati > increasing, and could neglect the duty they have to examine all > experience and come to understand it. (Conditions permitting.)" > > I think you are making a good warning but I am not clear about what you are saying. Ph: In one of the recorded talks I have listened to, there is a man who has come to Bangkok from Europe to be a monk and meditate. He refuses to even consider that when he is sitting in a room talking to people, there is seeing, hearing tasting etc that can be object of satipatthana. He insists that satipatthana can only be developed in his temple on the mountain. It is an extreme example, but I think to a certain extent people who meditate formally can become attached to calm and quiet, and come to feel that only when there is calm and quiet can there be satipatthana. Now I'm sure this isn't the case for people who have a solid understanding of what satipatthana means - they would know that sati can arise anytime, anywhere. >Now the following is clear: > "I still suspect that there are forms of meditation that in the wrong > hands lead to people feeling temporary relief from suffering, but > lead to deepening their roots in samsara, because there is this > belief that kusala cittas can be generated intentionally..." > > However, I am not sure what you mean by "kusala cittas". Ph: A good example would be intentionally generating metta, > What you seem not to accept is the fact that one must begin ... and that requires intent. However, you can argue that it requires the right intent. To have no-intent is the same as saying have no aim in life, this is not for beginning Buddhists. There must be intent and there must be "I"; a health ego is essential for enlightenment to be achieved. Ph: I ahve argued the same thing as recently as six months or so ago. In a discussion with Sarah I said that we should employ the self, hire the self in order to gradually lay it off. Use the self in a process that leads to it being laid-off. So I know what you mean. However, I feel now that especially for westerners we are conditioned from childhood into having such a strong self-identity, such a strong interest in what we accomplish in this one lifetime, that it is really wise to work to intellectually detach ourselves from that as soon as possible. Anatta is the Buddha's most sublime teaching, the one thing that makes Dhamma different from other religions that always teach of an atta, a self or soul. So if we have this opportunity to begin to understood that there is no self that can control cittas, let's take the opportunity. This requires patience and acceptance that radical progress is unlikely in this lifetime - but real progress is, no matter how gradual. I think this is why I've come to appreciate Kh Sujin's guidance so mcuh - the emphasis on patience. But I know what you mean, Charles. And who knows? You may be right. Empasis on "may" ;) Metta, Phil 45614 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (372) lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply. Sukha is vedana cetasika (pleasant feeling). Piiti is sankhara khandha cetasika, "suffusing joy". I assume it is important to know the difference between these two because piiti is released before sukha, maybe because piiti is less calm, more energetic. Is sukha a special feeling that only arises with jhana citta? Can there be akusala piiti and sukkha? Larry 45615 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction buddhistmedi... Hi Mike ( anyone who cares to join us, please do) - I read you remark about Sotapanna's view with a curiosity. >Andrew: >>Hence, a sotapanna may indeed experience papanca stemming > > from tanha or mana (but not ditthi). > > Mike: I wrote that attadi.t.thi was a "mental factor which falls into the category of 'existence' or 'eternalist' view"; in fact, I think it can either >fall into the existence/eternalist view OR the >nonexistence/annihilationist view. > Tep : So you believe that anyone is a Sotapanna if she/he doesn't have the two extreme views (i.e. "the existence/eternalist view OR the nonexistence/ annihilationist view" ) besides being free from the other two fetters. Now, may I ask you for a clarification? Does it follow that a Stream-winner neither has any view on "no-self", nor any view on "not-self" as well? Why or why not? Yours truly, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:31 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction > 45616 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 16, 2005 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Hi Rob, R: "As Nagasena points out at the beginning of Milindapana, King Milinda's chariot has no ultimate existence as "chariot" is a name / designation / phrase / term / concept / formation representing a group of component parts arranged in a particular manner. Nagasena's focus was not concept vs. reality, but rather anatta." L: Nagasena got this analogy from the nun Vajira in SN. Notice there is a difference between name/concept and group. R: "I agree with you that a concept is a linguistic device, but I see the function of this concept as being mental synthesis. A kalapa is a grouping of ultimate realities whereas other concepts may be grouping together of other things (including other concepts... to create meta-concepts?). Nevertheless, I see formations and concepts as the same thing." L: Do you see concepts as being conditioned and impermanent? Is a kalapa impermanent? R: "Please help me to better understand the difference between concepts and formations according to your definition and, more importantly, what benefit it brings to separate the two definitions." L: One difference is that a formation is many dhammas, a group (khandha), while a concept is only one dhamma. As such, a reality or a concept can be an object of consciousness but a formation can't, because consciousness can have only one object and a group is many objects. One benefit is that you don't have to think of your chariot as a name only. It is a formation, impermanent but without own nature (sabhava). A trickier question is how can something be both impermanent and asabhava. A defining characteristic of sabhava is impermanence. I think we have to say sabhava also means individual in the sense of not perceptually divisible. A formation, of course, is very perceptually divisible, even though technically it isn't an object of consciousness. I am contrasting "perceptually divisible" with "conceptually divisible". Any dhamma can be infinitely conceptually divided but in perceptually dividing a formation you will eventually reach a paramattha dhamma. I think formations are the "real" objects of desire rather than paramattha dhammas or concepts; so, perhaps, that is where we should focus our insight. Although focusing on realities is certainly a valid approach. Larry 45617 From: "mnease" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction mlnease Hi Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction > > Mike: I wrote that attadi.t.thi was a "mental factor which falls into the > category of 'existence' or 'eternalist' view"; in fact, I think it can either > >fall into the existence/eternalist view OR the > >nonexistence/annihilationist view. > > > Tep : So you believe that anyone is a Sotapanna if she/he doesn't > have the two extreme views (i.e. "the existence/eternalist view OR the > nonexistence/ annihilationist view" ) besides being free from the other > two fetters. Not necessarily--I don't see this as a matter of belief, but one of theory. As I understand the texts, all wrong view falls into one category or the other. > Now, may I ask you for a clarification? > > Does it follow that a Stream-winner neither has any view on "no-self", > nor any view on "not-self" as well? Why or why not? "No-self" (as in "I have no self") sounds to me like a kind of conceptual wrong view. "Not-self", on the other hand, in reference to the aggregates, is surely in accord with the Law whether as a concept or as a dhamma. Depending on context, 'view' can refer either to a concept or to a (cetasika) dhamma. One of the dhammas eradicated by stream entry is the dhamma 'wrong view' (together with the dhammas envy, avarice and doubt as I'm sure you're aware). So it certainly seems unlikely to me that the view--in the sense of the concept--of "no-self" would occur to the sotaapanna--but this is a different matter from the eradication of the mental factor of wrong view, I think. Anyway, I think that the occurence of the conceptual view of "no-self" would most likely be conditioned by the presence of the mental factor 'wrong view', absent for the sotaapanna. Being most assuredly NOT a sotapaanna 'myself', I can't be sure, but still hope to find out... Cheers, mike 45618 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. - A Beauty of the Buddha's Teachings. buddhistmedi... Hello, Everyone - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Hasituppada, > I found your letter when I came home. I am sorry you suffered so much from pains and I hope you have fully recovered by now. (snipped) > > > H: But in meditation you see the mind without the "reality of the > > instance", that is a state of a mind released from sorrow , a > > state of a mind released from fear, a state of a mind released from > > pain and discomfort. (4am). > > > > My tooth is very much less painful. I will try to sneak into the bed > > hoping to catch a little sleep. > > > > Pardon me if you consider this unnecessary ranting, > ---------- > N: Not at all, such exchanges are useful. > I see bhavana differently from you. Mental development also includes > considering Dhamma, discussing it, beginning to be aware of what appears right now. I think of Sukin's post on pariyatti, which is far more than just theoretical knowledge. I come back to it, I discussed it with Lodewijk. > For bhavana the kusala citta must be accompanied by paññaa and also by alobha, detachment. We have to ask ourselves: do I learn anything? Is there less attachment to the idea of my thinking, my mind, my pain? Any form of bhavana, samatha and vipassana, must lead to detachment. > Nina. T: Our Great Teacher, the Buddha, had several discourses on overcoming sufferings. The following sutta is very clear and concise. "There are, O monks, these three feelings: pleasant feelings, painful feelings, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings." A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his mind collected, he knows the feelings[1] and their origin,[2] knows whereby they cease[3] and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead.[4] And when the end of feelings he has reached, such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana."[5] [SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta] Comy. notes : [1]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of Suffering. [2]. He knows them by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering. [3]. He knows, by way of the Truth of Cessation, that feelings cease in Nibbana. [4]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering. [5]. Parinibbuto, "fully extinguished" through the full extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-001.html Tep : The above discourse clearly explains how to apply the Four Noble Truths in vedana contemplation that leads to Nibbana. What else can be more effective than the Buddha's Teachings in the suttas? Respectfully, Tep ========== 45619 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 16, 2005 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... lbidd2 Hi Charles, What is real is the 5 khandhas and nibbana. Dhammas of the 5 khandhas have the 'general' characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self. Besides the 'general' characteristics, each reality has 'particular' characteristics that differentiate it from all other dhammas. What is not ultimately real is concepts. Concepts are not considered to be impermanent or conditioned because they are not real. Additionally concepts have no 'particular' characteristics in the sense of a defining characteristic in themselves. In other words, the definition of "two" depends on conventions (social agreements) rather than twoness, whereas pleasant feeling is a phenomenon of pleasant feeling-ness rather than something we agree on. Particular characteristic is "sabhava" in pali, usually translated as "own nature". The status of "compounded" dhammas is uncertain at the moment. This is partly due to the rather slippery nature of the word "sankhara", which can be translated as conditioned, formed, or compounded. If there is a compound of two realities is that compound a concept because it has no one particular characteristic, or a reality because it is two realities and is impermanent. This difficulty is further exacerbated by the principle that consciousness can have only one object, either one reality or one concept. Is a compound of two dhammas one object or two objects? [The answer depends on whether you answer according to the concept of "compound" or the realities of the two dhammas.] There might also be something in the Useful Posts file at dsg yahoo. Larry ------------------------------- Charles DaCosta: "I am getting the impression that all of you who like to distinguish between what is a reality and ... (using Abhidharma as the basis for the belief) are really trying to say that uncompounded, unconditioned, and permanent things are the only reality (or ultimate realities). Is this true? charlesD PS: I am trying to clearly understand your definitions." 45620 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 16, 2005 11:12pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 196 - Enthusiasm/piiti (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] In the case of kåmåvacara cittas, píti always arises together with somanassa. In the case of the jhåna-cittas, this is not always so. Píti is one of the jhåna-factors which are developed in samatha in order to inhibit the hindrances(1). Píti inhibits the hindrance which is ill-will (vyåpåda). When there is delight in a meditation subject there is no ill-will or boredom. As we just read, there are five kinds of píti with different intensities. The fifth kind of píti, the “pervading happiness”, which has the greatest intensity, is the “root of absorption” and “comes by growth into association with absorption” (Vis. IV, 99). *** 1) The other jhåna-factors are: vitakka, vicåra, sukha (happy feeling) and samådhi. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45621 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 10:38pm Subject: Slaying Anger ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Only Clever Killing: Sakka - the king of the 33 divinities - once spoke these verses to the Blessed Buddha: Having slain what, does one sleep in peace ? Having slain what, does one never sorrow? What is the one thing 0ohh Gotama Whose killing you approve ? The Blessed One: Having slain Anger, one sleeps in calm ease; Having slain Anger, one does not sorrow The killing of Anger, 0ohh Vasava With its poisoned root and honeyed tip: This is the killing, the Noble Ones approve. For having slain that, one does not grieve. Sakka continued: I am not one easily upset in mind. Nor easily agitated by Anger's whirl. I never become angry for long Nor does Anger hang on in me. When angry, I do not despise. Nor do I praise own qualities. I keep myself well controlled. Protecting my own future good. Therefore: Bring Anger under control; Do not let your friendships decay. Do not blame one who is blameless; Do not speak splitting speech. Like the roaring mountain avalanche Their own Anger crushes evil people. Do not let Anger overpower you; Do not become angry with the angry. Noble Ones always remain harmless. Like a devastating mountain avalanche Their own Hate crushes bad people. Source: The Grouped sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 237-40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45622 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, I hope you and Sukin do have a discussion. It is interesting that you began by laying down the ground rules. I have no qualms with the rules you have suggested, only that you imply Sukin might not "approach with an open mind." DSG was formed to discuss the Theravada Tipitaka and its ancient commentaries, and I know Sukin will approach any discussion along those lines with a completely open mind. But do you expect him to be open-minded as to the value of other philosophies and religions, or of other schools of Buddhism? Must he be prepared to accept the teaching of your personal meditation teacher if that teaching contradicts the selected texts? Ken H > Hi Sukinder, > > I will adress you. > > We can discuss this if you like, but only if you approach with an > open mind. I am not interested in debating with anyone, as it only > leads to more kilesa, and thats not helpful to anyone, and makes > this unpleasant. We can attempt to understand each other better and > treat each other with respect. > > I have nothing to prove to anyone. Nor will I try to get you to take > on my views. > > If you are happy with that, Im happy to discuss the dhamma with you > in mutual curiosity, not forgetting that there are humans behind the > words on screen. If you dont wish to discuss; if youre happy with > what you know, that's also just fine. > > > metta, > > Matheesha 45623 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Htoo, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Htoo - > > Having adopted the "Butting-in Allowed" policy, I am going ahead with > my brief comment. :->)) > > The one-track central theme of Sarah that keeps > repeating; "self", "control", "panna', "present moment", > and "conditioned", is not flexible because it is biased. Nothing is > wrong with the Dhamma; the Abhidhamma and the Paramattha- > dhamma are inside the Teachings (the Tipitaka). ... S: At least we al agree with the last sentence, so this gives us plenty to work with. :) ... >But the way > the "central theme" is applied is wrong, ineffective, and, therefore, > not > convincing. .... S: :-/ OK, I'll try to do better next time. .... > > No doubt why Htoo kept repeating, "I don't understand it". ... S: I apologise for this, really. It's not my intention to confuse or condition any annoyance by sounding so inflexible or biased. Tep, you've raised many interesting points in your first post to me on postures etc -- I'm a little behind with a few tasks, so will get back later. Did we finish with our other thread on anatta and the Anattalakkhana Sutta, btw? Metta and apologies again, Sarah p.s DSG views are represented by ALL comments of ALL the participants, most certainly including your own prolific ones. So the 'DSG view' is not at all just what I, Jon, Nina or Sukin says, for example. (at least that's how I see it:-)). ==================== 45624 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma sukinderpal Hi Matheesha, Sorry if I have offended you. I know I did make an indirect reference to what you said on the list a few weeks ago. But as I said in the letter, and it is always the case with me, that I had in mind something else at the outset, but perhaps because I never plan anything, this letter of mine went another way. Your statement just happen to pop into my mind as I went along and were the conditions slightly different, I probably would have taken another example. But yes, I do like taking examples that others can refer to, and yes, this point was to me a quite obvious and good example of the point I was trying to make. But please don't mind me. I am willing to discuss dhamma with you if you are. I do have an infinite accumulation of mana and much, much dosa to go with that. I realize that it would be ideal to discuss dhamma with metta, but this quality is really in short supply here ;-). In fact when Sarah was last here, I told her about how much I admired Phil's accumulations, in terms of panna and particularly the inclination to metta. I wished that instead of the usual reaction to situations with dosa, how much better life would be if instead there was metta. But now I don't want to think too much along these lines. I can see how this will easily condition the idea of wanting to have metta and somehow relating this with the idea of developing wisdom, and this is wrong view. I can't promise you that this sort of thing won't happen again, and I really don't know what it is to be `open-minded'. Surely this can't be `doubt' which is mistaken as `taking all sides into consideration', i.e. one of the "cheating dhammas"? Being on DSG, one should have plenty of dhamma reminders, but alas, the accumulated panna is still too less. :-( Metta, Sukinder --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Sukinder, > > I will adress you. > > We can discuss this if you like, but only if you approach with an > open mind. I am not interested in debating with anyone, as it only > leads to more kilesa, and thats not helpful to anyone, and makes > this unpleasant. We can attempt to understand each other better and > treat each other with respect. 45625 From: nina Date: Mon May 16, 2005 2:54pm Subject: dana and sila nilovg Hi Philip, Philip writes to Charles: > What does "sila" and "dana" mean? I thought this question would be a good opportunity for me to review some passages I quoted (and commented on) from Kh Sujin's "Deeds of Merit" about a year ago, but I can't find them. Here is a summary from the above book. YOu'll see that dana is generosity and sila is morality and they make up two of the three branches of meritous deeds. ---------- N: dana not only includes giving material things, also appreciation of other people's good deeds, and 'extending merit'. The last one is letting others, dead or alive, know of our kusala so that they also have kusala cittas. Also keeping the precepts can be seen under the aspect of dana: you give others the opportunity to live in peace, without trouble. Also forgiving is a form of dana, you wish others to be free from harm. As to sila, this is any kind of good deed through body and speech. Helping others, being courteous, polite in manners, paying respect, all these things are included. Even satipatthana through which the six doors are guarded can be seen as sila. The Visuddhimagga begins with the lower sila and ends even with lokuttara citta as sila. So you see that there is no rigid classification as dana, sila and bhavana, they are intertwined. ------- Ph: I always keep in mind something I learned from Kh Sujin - if we don't appreciate the importance of dana and sila, we won't be able to develop panna. The thought of developing panna is so sexy that I overlook sila and dana. ------- N: So this becomes clearer. Dana, sila and bhavana are closely connected. But this is important: we have to learn that kusala citta and all those sobhana cetasikas that assist kusala citta are only namas, citta and cetasikas, arising because of the proper conditions. That is: good friendship, accumulation of kusala in the past, wise attention. Cittas are so fast, they have gone before you know it, and thus, how could we direct them? It is important not to take kusala for self. We learn this through satipatthana, awareness of nama and rupa. And satipatthana conditions all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. It is kusala to see akusala as a condiitoned nama. Nina. 45626 From: nina Date: Mon May 16, 2005 2:54pm Subject: feelings nilovg Hi Tep and all, Thank you Tep for quoting the sutta and adding co. notes. I add a few remarks. Comy. notes : [1]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of Suffering. --------- N: To know feeling as dukkha, that also means: realizing the arising and falling away of feeling, because what is impermanent has no core, it cannot be a refuge. Feeling is nama, and how is nama realized? Through the mind-door. Do we know what the mind-door is? We only know the name mind-door. Rupa such as hardness can be known through the bodydoor and the mind-door, but just now the mind-door is concealed. It seems that we only know the body-door. This is different at the first stage of insight knowledge, which discerns the difference between nama and rupa through the mind-door. Then it is known what the mind-door is. Just now I read about feelings, think about them, but in fact I only know a concept of feeling. Why is that? Because I do not realize feeling yet as pure nama, different from rupa. Tep, you may find this biassed, but I believe that only by being aware of nama or rupa that appears now, the difference between nama and rupa can be learnt, and this very gradually. If there is no awareness of what appears at this moment we can only speculate, guess, think of realities. Then knowledge can never be very precise. ---------- Tep: [2]. He knows them by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering. --------- N: This is clinging. We cling to all feelings, in fact to all namas and rupas, to insight. Only when nama is realized as nama, can we know what clinging is: a conditioned nama. ------------ Tep: [3]. He knows, by way of the Truth of Cessation, that feelings cease in Nibbana. [4]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering. [5]. Parinibbuto, "fully extinguished" through the full extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-001.html Tep : The above discourse clearly explains how to apply the Four Noble Truths in vedana contemplation that leads to Nibbana. What else can be more effective than the Buddha's Teachings in the suttas? ---------- N: The suttas are important, they truly remind me not to be neglectful. But I would go wrong if I would not have some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma. I would be lost if I would be ignorant of sense-door and mind-door, of processes, of stages of insight. I would not know the difference between concepts and realities. Nina. 45627 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 17, 2005 3:20am Subject: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up sarahprocter... Hi Htoo & all, I have a collection of your DT posts in front of me (and a few non-DTs which have 'crept' or 'butted' in) and I just wish to give a little feedback. It’s a long time since I did this, but have only just got up to date. Firstly, I thought the long series on kamma and the 4 sets with all the repetitions were very good and helpful. Also the series before that on sobhana and asobhana cittas. Nothing at all to ‘pick at’ in the kamma series:-) Well done. I learnt a lot. Also punna kiriya vatthu (meritorious deeds) etc – all very fine imho. The new jhana set started off really well with lots of useful info, up to about DT379 I think. When it comes to bhavana -- samatha or vipassana -- many differences, but I won't repeat all of those here, you'll be glad to know. Now the ‘picky’ parts just according to how I see them, rightly or wrongly(!!), (leaving aside ‘walking meditation’ here :-)). 1.#44020 – we have different ideas of when ditthi arises (the child listening with lobha but who doesn’t know kamma well – no ditthi as you explain it) and at the end, it is dosa mula citta when people are upset. 2. #43934 – you say kamavacara cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 30 asobhana cittas and 24 sobhana cittas. Surely, asobhana includes akusala? 3.#44094 – you say adosa can be called metta. I think it’s better to say that when adosa appears as the brahma vihara, metta, it has the characteristic of caring and being friendly to living beings. There is adosa accompanying all sobhana cittas, but not metta. I think we’ve agreed this a few times:). 4. #44065 – a Qu. I u’stand that in arupa brahma realms there is no dosa. You say this is b.c. ‘all jhanas rupa or arupa become jhanas only after complete clearing of dosa’. I think I’m missing sth in the logic. Surely lobha is ‘cleared out’ in jhana too. 5.#44160 – you say that ‘panatta seems stable, permanent, eternal and that is why jhanas are unshakable and like mountains’. I agreed with yr other comments on pannatti, but here it sounds like some wrong views make jhanas unshakable, rathter than the sobhana cittas and factors. Also you say to Geoff that ‘as soon as paramattha dhamma is taken as object, .....kammavacara mahakusala citta ......’. I think I know what you mean, but of course many ahetuka and akusala cittas also take paramattha dhamma as object, surely? 6. #44852 – side note/qu – interested to read more about upaghataka kamma (cutting kamma) and its role in ‘eradicating all potentials’. You mention about the arahant’s case and all existing kamma leading to future rebirths abolished. Also, I think it plays its role at stage of sotapatti magga, ‘abolishing’ all previous kamma that could lead to rebirth in hell realms etc (7. #45242 – a real side note – thx for all your help with Pali terms, Htoo...you explain them v. well.) 8. #45326 – on ‘first-hand objects’ referring to the 7 rupas experienced thr’ the sense doors. I don’t think we can say that other rupas experienced through the mind-door only are not ‘first-hand’. 9. #45522 – on metta again. Can you give me a reference to a sutta or text which contains the pali you quote for, ‘may I be free from enemies...danger...suffering....healthy and wealthy’. I agree that ‘One’s self is the most deared one in 31 realms’. This being so, perhaps we need to be less concerned rather than more concerned with ‘me’:). I have a few more, but there are enough here for now and I have to go out. [to be contd:)]. Metta, Sarah ======= 45628 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 5:17am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah and Htoo {Attn. Nina, Jon, ... } - Your nice-and-kind reply, which is a moderator's excellent quality, is truly appreciated: S: At least we all agree with the last sentence, so this gives us plenty to work with. :) ... S: :-/ OK, I'll try to do better next time. .... S: I apologise for this, really. It's not my intention to confuse or condition any annoyance by sounding so inflexible or biased. T: May I apologize for my annoyed remarks too, Sarah? I'll try to show zero annoyance from now. ------------------------------------ S: Did we finish with our other thread on anatta and the Anattalakkhana Sutta, btw? T: Not yet. I'll wrap it up either by today or tomorrow, Sarah. ----------------------------------- S: ...the 'DSG view' is not at all just what I, Jon, Nina or Sukin says, for example. (at least that's how I see it:-)). T: The management's view is the dominating view, in general. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & Htoo, > > S: At least we al agree with the last sentence, so this gives us plenty to > work with. :) > ... > >T: But the way > > the "central theme" is applied is wrong, ineffective, and, therefore, > > not convincing. > .... > ==================== 45629 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/16/05 11:13:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: In other words, the definition of "two" depends on conventions (social agreements) rather than twoness, whereas pleasant feeling is a phenomenon of pleasant feeling-ness rather than something we agree on. ==================== Are you absolutely sure of this, Larry? Speaking ordinary-speak for the moment, Larry, pleasantness also is a matter of convention. And what we call "red" is a matter of convention. Is it TWO, per se, that is a matter of convention, or is it what we CALL "two" that is the matter of convention? There is talk at places in Abhidhamma of dyads. Calling them that is a matter of convention, but are pairs truly unreal? Is up-down unreal, forwards-backwards, left-right? In fact, let's look at left-right: Physicists even apply that at the quantum level, I believe. Now, it is a social convention as to what is called "left" and what is called "right", but is the pair itself purely conventional and completely unreal? All normal human adults are aware of the pair, and can distinguish left from right. There is something VERY interesting about left and right. We all know which is which, and even without names we can distinguish them. I challenge you, however, to verbally define her one of them!!! It seems they have more of a physical reality than a conceptual, definitional one!!! I believe that the notion of "real" is far less simple than any of us believes. I think that what is important for us to come to see is the compromised status of *everything*, the lack of solid, dependable, substantial existence, and for us to come to see the middle-way, dependent, conditioned, impermanent, ungraspable, unsatisfying, and empty nature of every aspect of the all, and to develop a thoroughgoing carte blanche dis-enchantment. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45630 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 2:03am Subject: Typo Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/05 8:33:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I challenge you, however, to verbally define her one of them!!! =================== The nonsense word 'her' was supposed to be 'either'. Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45631 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: feelings buddhistmedi... Hi Nina and others - I think the message that I sent along with the SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta, is that this Buddha's discourse is simple and perfect for practitioners; there is no need for the bhikkhus (and real Buddhists) to know all the details about the Paramattha-dhamma principles [ rupa, hardness, body-door, mind-door, nama, the first stage of insight knowledge or higher, etc. ] These detailed knowledges are very good when one has intellectual doubts about how the cittas and cetasikas operate at the micro level. This may be analogous to physicists, who know the details of physical laws and theories of molecules, and electrical engineers who don't know much details about the molecular theories but they can design and build electrical systems and devices. A danger inevitably results when one is too fascinated by the beautiful theories to neglect practicing according to the suttas (Buddha's discourses). Why did our Lord Buddha not talk about the micro Paramattha-dhamma in this SN XXXVI.1 or most other suttas? That was the message I sent. N: Tep, you may find this biassed, but I believe that only by being aware of nama or rupa that appears now, the difference between nama and rupa can be learnt, and this very gradually. If there is no awareness of what appears at this moment we can only speculate, guess, think of realities. Then knowledge can never be very precise. T: I think you are the least biased Abhidhammika I have ever known, Nina. But such ability of seeing and knowing nama and rupa precisely is the consequence of samatha-vipassana bhavana everyday to develop awareness (sati-sampajanna), not to be gained by reading the books, writing about the Abhidhamma and discussing it everyday. This issue is the most difficult one to get across. -------------- N: We cling to all feelings, in fact to all namas and rupas, to insight. Only when nama is realized as nama, can we know what clinging is: a conditioned nama. T: How do we get to know that clinging is a conditioned dhamma without an appropriate vipassana-nana? If the detailed Abhidhamma knowledge and devotion without meditation can get anyone to a magga-nana, then I don't have anymore argument: the case is closed! -------------- N: The suttas are important, they truly remind me not to be neglectful. But I would go wrong if I would not have some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma. I would be lost if I would be ignorant of sense- door and mind-door, of processes, of stages of insight. I would not know the difference between concepts and realities. T: I like the "some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma" and agree with it -- as I explained above-- but one should never be obsessed with and clinging to the micro knowledges , otherwise the danger is unavoidable. You are clearly an exception. It is always great for me to discuss the Dhamma with you, Nina. Thank you again. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep and all, > Thank you Tep for quoting the sutta and adding co. notes. I add a few > remarks. > Comy. notes : > 45632 From: nina Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:46pm Subject: pariyatti, by Sukin, continued. nilovg Dear Sukin and all, I read Sukin's post on pariyatti twice to Lodewijk on his request. I shall quote some parts of it again, with remarks added. ------------ S: Pariyatti is not mere `knowledge of Dhamma'. So when one reads the Dhamma, there can be moments of pariyatti or there can be none. ... One important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma arising in the present moment. ----------- Lodewijk: it begins to dawn on me how crucial it is that Kh. Sujin emphasizes all the time that the present object has to be understood. As soon as one moves away from the present object one is immediately in the world of concepts. She stresses that we should understand this moment of kusala or akusala. It seems so simple but it is deep, and therefore, the development of understanding is bound to take a long time. ------------- Sukin: Also it is not something that a `self' can decide to use in practice as one would do with other conventional knowledge and activities. It is after all a fleeting conditioned dhamma, which when arisen, falls away instantly. When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very phenomena. ----------- L: Very well expressed:one's attention is bent towards this very phenomenon. Seeing and visible object appearing now should be stressed. In a few words Sukin expressed the essence, this is very impressive. Now there seems to be a great mass of impressions, but it is different when the attention is bent towards only one object. --------------- S: The level of understanding may not be such that the characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However,there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and with some confidence. -------- L: Confidence is very important: also a lower level of paññaa gives confidence in the Path. ---------- S: At such beginning level, there is already a planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. ------------ L: planting the seed of understanding, very well expressed. ----------- S: The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can reach the level of saccannana. -------------- Nina: there are three levels of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ñaa.na, knowledge of what the noble truths are, kicca ñaa.na, knowledge of the practice, and kata ñaa.na, knowledge of realization (what has been done, kata). sacca ñaa.na is firm understanding of what has to be realized, what dukkha is, what its cause, how its cessation can be reached, firm understanding of the right Path. It is not theoretical understanding. -------------- S: The theory has been verified through experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other time, place or activity. ------------ N: This is pariyatti that has reached the level of sacca ñaa.na. As Kh Sujin also said, pariyatti is understanding of the reality that appears now. We shall see that direct understanding of realities confirms all that we learnt from the texts. ------------ S: To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends the mind to the present moment. ----------- N: We learnt just now from the Visuddhimagga (sankhaarakkhandha) about all the sobhana cetasikas that support the kusala citta which develops vipassanaa. We see to what extent that citta is conditioned by all these sobhana cetasikas of paññaa, detachment, non-aversion, sati, confidence, lightness, wieldiness and others. ------------ S: In the beginning the understanding is weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to greater understanding of the six worlds separately. --------- N: Lodewijk and I discussed how important a correct understanding of accumulation is. When we listen and consider with right understanding of what we hear, understanding accumulates, little by little. --------- S: Pativedha is when the insight knowledge arises, but this can only happen with the kind of practice which does not move away from the presently arisen dhamma to a more idealized situation or object. Therefore I think it is crucial to have a correct appreciation of pariyatti and what it is really about. ------------------ Lodewijk: this is most important, the *correct* appreciation of pariyatti. --------------- N: I just quote from my Letters on Vipassana no 9: It appears now, it has its own characteristic, nobody can change it. Visible object is just a reality, it is not a person or a tree, as we used to think. When we hear that it is a reality and that we cannot do anything about it reminds us of the nature of anatta of visible object. It appears already and understanding of it can be naturally developed. It seems that we see immediately a chair or a flower, but if there were no thinking could there be any idea about visible object? Seeing and thinking arise closely one after the other and gradually their different characteristics can be known. ****** Nina. 45633 From: nina Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:46pm Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 158 and Tiika nilovg Vism.XIV,158, supramundane path-consciousness: Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the lokuttara kusala cittas of the four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the streamwinner, of the once-returner, of the non-returner and of the arahat. At each of these stages defilements are successively eradicated. The lokuttara citta is accompanied by paññaa, sati, concentration, confidence, alobha, adosa and other sobhana cetasikas which have reached a high degree and which each perform their own function while they experience nibbaana. For those who have developed insight as well as jhaana, lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by jhaana-factors of the different stages of jhaana. In that case, the four magga-cittas that are accompanied by jhaana-factors of the five stages of jhaana are classified as twenty lokuttara jhaanacittas. For those who did not develop jhaana, the lokuttara magga-citta is accompanied by right concentration that has the strength of the first stage of jhaana. In this section the Vis. refers to the lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhaana-factors of the five stages of jhaana. Those who develop immaterial jhaana, aruupa-jhaana, have the same type of jhaanacitta as the ruupa-jhaanacitta of the fifth stage and thus the lokuttara citta is accompanied by jhaana-factors of the fifth stage. ****** Text Vis.: (18)-(21) As regards the supramundane, firstly, in the case of the path consciousness having the first jhana they should be understood to be as stated in the case of the first fine-material-sphere consciousness (9). The paths classed as belonging to the second jhana, etc., should be understood to be as stated in the cases [respectively] of the second fine-material-sphere jhana, and so on (10)-(13). ---------------- N: The Tiika explains that the word Œaadi¹, Œand so on¹, refers to the third, fourth and fifth fine-material-sphere jhaana. ----------- Text Vis.: But the difference here is absence of compassion (xxxii) and gladness (xxxiii), [67] constancy of the abstinences (xxxiv-xxxvi), and supramundaneness. ---------------------- Note 67, taken from the Tiika: 'Because the path consciousnesses have nibbana as their object and because compassion, gladness, etc., have living beings as their object, there is no compassion, etc., in the path' (Pm. 491). ----------- N: The Tiika explains that sometimes the magga-citta is without the path-factor of right thought, sammaasa²nkappa, and this is the case when it is accompanied by the jhaana-factors of the second, third, fourth and fifth stages of jhaana, which are without the jhaana-factor vitakka, applied thought. Only the jhaanacitta of the first stage is accompanied by vitakka, and after that stage it is abandoned. As to constancy or fixedness (niyaamataa) of the abstinences, the Tiiika explains that all three viratis, abstinences, accompany the lokuttara cittas, because the ariyamagga cuts off the conditions for wrong conduct through body and speech and wrong livelihood. In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere, they may arise one at a time, and then there is abstention from wrong speech, action and livelihood as the case demands. In the case of lokuttara magga-cittas, the object of citta and its accompanying cetasikas is nibbaana. At that moment there is no opportunity for transgression, but lokuttara cittas cut off the bases of wrong conduct and livelihood and they fulfil their functions as the path-factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood. **** Conclusion: When mahaa-kusala citta of the sense-sphere accompanied by paññaa develops the eightfold Path, it is accompanied by five or six factors, not by all eight factors. When there is an opportunity for abstention from wrong conduct, it is accompanied by one virati cetasika at a time, and in that case the mahaa-kusala citta is accompanied by six factors. When lokuttara citta arises, it is accompanied by all three virati cetasikas. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 73): We may keep the five precepts for a long time, but this does not mean that the conditions for coarse akusala have been eradicated. We cannot be sure what kind of misconduct we are capable of. Paññaa has to be developed so that enlightenment can be attained, and at that moment conditions for misconduct are cut off. ******* Nina. 45634 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (376) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: Hi Htoo, I agree with your comments on kusala and bhaavana. Can I ask you how you find time to contribute so much to this group? :) metta Matheesha -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Matheesha, People are always saying that they do not have time. I also do not have time. But I can share my breath. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I can share my bread and breath. Time is money. Money is bread. Bread is life. Life can only be shared with metta. 45635 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread (383) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 mahaabuuta objects or 4 great elements for kasina kammatthana apart from 4 colours. They are 1. pathavii or earth 2. tejo or fire 3. vayo or wind 4. apo or water For water kasina or apo kasina kammatthaana, it is possible to use natural water pool like ponds, lakes, streams, rivers etc etc. But it can be prepared as an indoor object. Use a clean and clear water. Put them in a container say about a diameter of 2 feet. The container should not have attractive colour so that the object water cannot be distracted to colour of the container. The initial object for water kasina or apo kasina kammatthaana is visual object of water. When mental image arises the image of water and water container can clearly be recognised through the mind without opening eyes. When this appears that new object is called uggaha nimitta. At a time there arises another object in the mind and it is similar to the mentalk image but not exactly. It is just a counter image of the mental image. It is brilliant and beautiful. It is patibhaaga nimitta and it is pannatti. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45636 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:35am Subject: Re: Leading others to practice htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: The dhamma is like a snake. metta Matheesha -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Matheesha, Could you please explain your words 'The dhamma is like a snake' in connection with your copied post of 'Nanda Thera', who had been to be married with Janapadakalayyanii Nanda. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45637 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (372) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply. Sukha is vedana cetasika (pleasant feeling). Piiti is sankhara khandha cetasika, "suffusing joy". I assume it is important to know the difference between these two because piiti is released before sukha, maybe because piiti is less calm, more energetic. Is sukha a special feeling that only arises with jhana citta? Can there be akusala piiti and sukkha? Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry, Vedana or feeling is a universal cetasika or universal mental factor. This cetasika arises with each and every citta that arises at any time. There are akusala piiti and akusala sukha. Examples are kaama piiti and kaama sukha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45638 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > I think the Buddha criticized ritual because most (99.9%) of the rituals he saw (in ancient India) could do nothing to aid in the escape from samsara or end suffering. > > Rituals that instilled principles like humility and kindness the Buddha liked because he felt they ripened the mind for his Dharma. > > CharlesD -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Charles, Thanks for your participation. Once there were people who had believed other religion. When they became Buddhists they were still encourage to do their usual things like giving food and offering things to their teachers of other religion. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45639 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (384) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread is discussing on kamma currently. Kaamavacara kamma have been discussed. Now ruupaavacara kamma are being discussed. 1st jhaana has been defined. There are 26 kammatthaanas that can give rise to 1st jhaana. Among them 8 kasinas have been discussed. There are 4 colour kasinas or 4 vanna kasinas. They are niila or blue, piita or yellow, lohita or red, and odaata or white kasina. There are 4 elemental kasinas. They are pathavi kasina or earth kasina, tejo kasina or fire kasina, vayo kasina or wind kasina, and apo kasina or water kasina. Still there are 2 other kasinas. They are aloka kasina or light-spot kasina and aakaasa kasina or space kasina. Aloka kasina or light kasina can be practised on any natural light like moon, sun, and also on man-made light like fluoresent tube light, electric light bulb's light without being specially prepared. For indoor purpose, one may prepare for aloka kasina. The room has to be in the dark and a single light spot can be created by making a hole through which light is cast and producing light spot. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45640 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, [hoping not disturbed] ;-) Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Sarah's catching up point 2 : You summarised points and at number 2 you indicated; 2. #43934 – you say kamavacara cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 30 asobhana cittas and 24 sobhana cittas. Surely, asobhana includes akusala? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My thought at that time might have been; 'kamavacara cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 18 ahetuka cittas and 24 sobhana cittas'. I think my thought had overshot to '24 kama sobhana cittas' and so I automatically wrote '30 asobhana cittas' just in front of 24 sobhana cittas. I admit that I made a mistake. Thanks for your summary of responses. With respect, Htoo Naing 45641 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:43am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, ;-) Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dear Sarah, Your summary point 3: 3.#44094 – you say adosa can be called metta. I think it's better to say that when adosa appears as the brahma vihara, metta, it has the characteristic of caring and being friendly to living beings. There is adosa accompanying all sobhana cittas, but not metta. I think we've agreed this a few times:). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. And we have agreed. I wrote 'can be'. I did not write 'adosa is metta' which essentially means 'adosa = metta'. But when it is generally considered there are many adosa, which are not metta. Cetasika-wise it is the same. Metta has the direction and it is to 'satta pannatta' or 'beings'. Metta has greater implication than adosa, which is a unit of nama dhamma. Thanks for your full feedback. With respect, Htoo Naing 45642 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread (385) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 kasina kammatthaana or 10 kasina objects for samatha mewditation. They are 1. pathavi kasina or earth kasina 2. tejo kasina or fire kasina 3. vayo kasina or wind kasina 4. apo kasina or water kasina 5. nila kasina or blue kasina 6. pita kasina or yellow kasina 7. lohita kasina or red kasina 8. odata kasina or white kasina 9. aloka kasina or light kasina 10.akasa kasina or space kasina To practise akasa kasina or space kasina, one may use naturally occurring space like the sky, a hole, a cave, a viaduct etc etc. But for indoor purpose, one may create an object for akasa kasina. It is essential that the room is higher than other buildings in the surroundings and there must not be any visual obstructions like bushes, mountains, houses and buildings when indoor object is made. The window of the room has to fix with a thick paper and at the centre there has to be made a hole of about 2 feet, through which there has to be no other visual object. Initially, the space between the margin of the paper is centred. When the space can well be recognised in the mind, it is possible that the space in visual object can clearly be seen in the mind so clearly that all the details are the same as the visual object. When this happen, it is called mental image of visual object and that object or arammana is called uggaha nimitta. At another time when more mature, there arises another image, which is similar to mental image. But it is much more beautiful and brilliant than mental image. That new object just exists in the mind and it is not a real one. It is called patibhaaga nimitta and it is pannatti. When this object arises, the mind is well calm and tranquilised and there is no hindrance at all and all the 5 factors or jhaana or 5 jhanangas are working well. At that time, mental state can be called as 1st jhaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45643 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:57am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 4. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, :-)) Metta, Sarah ======= ------------------------------ Sarah's summary points 4: 4. #44065 – a Qu. I u'stand that in arupa brahma realms there is no dosa. You say this is b.c. `all jhanas rupa or arupa become jhanas only after complete clearing of dosa'. I think I'm missing sth in the logic. Surely lobha is `cleared out' in jhana too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Another explanation is that 'dosa cittas' always arise on the ground of hadaya vatthu. In arupa brahmas there is no hadaya vatthu. So there is no dosa. If so what about rupa brahmas? Rupa brahmas also do not have dosa. They do not have dosa through out their lifespan. Regarding lobha, they cleanse 'kaamacchanda'. But they cannot cleanse bhava tanha, which is lobha. There are 10 akusala cittas that brahmas can have. 2 dosa cittas are excluded as they never have dosa at all. 10 akusala cittas are 2 moha cittas and 8 lobha cittas. They may have lobha. But that lobha does not include kaama raaga or sexual desire. Before they are reborn at brahma bhuumis, they already cleansed kaama raaga and dosa. This is a bit complicated. Nina may have some comments on this matter. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45644 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:10am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 8. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, [to be contd:)]. Metta, Sarah ======= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Your summarised point 8: 8. #45326 – on `first-hand objects' referring to the 7 rupas experienced thr' the sense doors. I don't think we can say that other rupas experienced through the mind-door only are not `first-hand'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The object that comes first is first-hand object. 7 rupas serve as 1st- hand objects. In a life there are sense-door consciousness and mind-door consciousness. Mind-door consciousness receive sense-door consciousness as sense-door consciousness know. Here eye, ear, nose, tongue, body receive the object first. But the mind receives it at a later time. Other rupa experienced through mind door are 1. 5 panca pasada rupas These are only known after learning. 2. 16 sukhuma rupa or 16 subtle matters Example vaci-vinatti cannot be known by 'only mind door'. The mind will never know vaci-vinatti without the help of ear-consciousness. So vaci- vinatti is not a first-hand object. With respect, Htoo Naing 45645 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 9. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, [to be contd:)]. Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Sarah, Your summary point 9 says: 9. #45522 – on metta again. Can you give me a reference to a sutta or text which contains the pali you quote for, `may I be free from enemies...danger...suffering....healthy and wealthy'. I agree that `One's self is the most deared one in 31 realms'. This being so, perhaps we need to be less concerned rather than more concerned with `me':). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, 'Aham avero homi, aham abyapajjo homi, aham anigho homi, aham sukhi attaanam parihaaraami' and 4 outward citations that is 'sabbe sattaa avera hontu, sabbe sattaa abyapajjaa hontu, sabbe sattaa anighaa hontu, sabbe sattaa sukhi attaanam pariharantu' were seen in a text. It was long long ago. I just draw out from my memory box inside my brain. I just do not remember what text it was and what sutta it was. What is sure is that it is not creation. It is from ancient texts. 4 citations on 5 general beings = 20 metta 4 citations on 7 less general beings = 28 metta metta in general (20 + 28 ) = 48 metta 48 metta to 10 directions = 480 metta 48 metta in general = 48 metta metta in total = 528 metta These are just general. Metta can go to specific general group or specific individual. When I say this I just remember 'radiation of metta to effect others'. Once when The Buddha was under a tree, He was aimed by an archer. The Buddha's metta went to that archer. The archer could not deload his arrow because of metta. Another 30 archers also could not deload their arrows because of metta. [Remembering Robert K] With respect, Htoo Naing 45646 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread (386) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 asubha kammatthaanas. All these 10 kammatthaana have the power to give rise to 1st jhaana. For initial practice, one will need to look at actual dead body as initial object. There are precautions that should be borne before asubha kammatthaanas are being carried out. Even though all these 10 asubha kammatthaanas are good to practise, they are not suited to everyone. Asubha kammatthaanas are especially suitable for those who have very strong lust or kaama raaga or strong sexual desire. One notice! All kammatthaanas are for sound people. All kammatthaanas are for sane person. All kammatthaanas are for mentally sound individuals. So if one has a mental disease, he or she should consult mental doctors first instead of following instructions for kammatthaana. This does not mean that 'fools' 'the insane' 'mentally unsound people' are not suited to kammatthaanas. This will depend on their disease and their degrees of mental disturbances. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45647 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 0:25pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Tep and Sarah, You make some very astute remarks, in your posts to Sarah, which I want to draw attention to: Post #45628 S: ...the 'DSG view' is not at all just what I, Jon, Nina or Sukin says, for example. (at least that's how I see it:-)). T: The management's view is the dominating view, in general. James: This is very true and Sarah (the central leader), Jon, and Nina have to realize the influence they manifest and the responsibility they hold. To deny this influence and responsibility is not wholesome. Post#45610 T: The one-track central theme of Sarah that keeps repeating; "self", "control", "panna', "present moment", and "conditioned", is not flexible because it is biased. Nothing is wrong with the Dhamma; the Abhidhamma and the Paramattha-dhamma are inside the Teachings (the Tipitaka). But the way the "central theme" is applied is wrong, ineffective, and, therefore, not convincing. James: This is also very true; in the early days of my membership I would often tell Sarah that she sounded like a broken record. Unfortunately, she wore that description like a badge of honor. However, being inflexible and narrow-minded is nothing to be proud of. Additionally, the one theme that Sarah doesn't consistently repeat, which she should, is `nibbana'. The theme of nibbana should be repeated again and again because that is the ultimate goal. The Buddha mentions nibbana in practically every sutta, and yet Sarah (in all her numerous posts) hardly mentions nibbana at all. I think that says something. Metta, James 45648 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 2:15pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - This is my reply to your message # 45440 about self and no self. Agreed Points -------------------- # Because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject to disease, and they cannot be controlled according to one's wishes. The logical deduction that follows is that it would be wrong to have the following viewpoint on each of the five aggregates : 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'. Such a self view is a miccha-ditthi. # Clinging can be either on right view or a wrong view. # Miccha-ditthi is a khandha – it is included in sankhara khandha. An Unresolved issue ------------------------------ Sarah: The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an illusion. Tep: By having the belief that there is no self (self is not real, not existing), isn't that an extreme view? The two estremes are the view of 'no self' and the view that self exists. The Dialogue Continues ------------------------------------ S: ... the pannatti (concepts) about self or computer or body or whatever else, are not real at all. The self or computer cannot be seen or heard or touched, they can only be imagined. Please let me know if this is still not clear. T: It is not clear, Sarah, because everybody else will tell you that a computer and a body can be seen or heard of, and both can be touched. I assume that you also believe that money is a pannatti and so it is not real!! But still you depend on it, and if someone steals all your money you would be very sad. How can you then say that money is a concept? :-) >T: Look, you might miss a chance to abandon your extreme view of no self! [ :->) ... S: It referred to pretty well everything I'd said in the last post so far...OK, I'll fish it out and check, see* T: Sincerely, Sarah, the fished-out stuff (*) does not indicate that you understand why the view on " no self " and the view on "there is a self" [non-existence and existence views] are two extremes. Please read the following excerpts to review the concept of extreme views. [Thanissaro] Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then to recommend dropping them. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [MN 2] I have a self... I have no self... It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self... or... This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > ... > S:(referring to "therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and > > self is > > thus an illusion".) Right we agree. The khandhas are mere elements > > (dhatus) which are not in anyone's conrol or command as the sutta > > extract shows. They are anatta, however much illusion there is to the > > contrary. > .... > S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were > warned:-). > ... 45649 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings dacostacharles Hi all, Good Discussion. Nina, I had to comment on you last paragraph, you stated, "The suttas are important, they truly remind me not to be neglectful. But I would go wrong if I would not have some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma. I would be lost if I would be ignorant of sense-door and mind-door, of processes, of stages of insight. I would not know the difference between concepts and realities. " My comments are that the suttas also provides the needed basic notions of: Abhidhamma, sense-door and mind-door, processes, stages of insight, but I don't recall them covering the difference between concepts and realities. To compensate for this, the suttas teach the way to freedom is by non-attachment to both concepts and realities, so their differences become unimportant. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: nina To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 16 May, 2005 23:54 Subject: [dsg] feelings Hi Tep and all, ... Tep : The above discourse clearly explains how to apply the Four Noble Truths in vedana contemplation that leads to Nibbana. What else can be more effective than the Buddha's Teachings in the suttas? ---------- N: The suttas are important, they truly remind me not to be neglectful. But I would go wrong if I would not have some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma. I would be lost if I would be ignorant of sense-door and mind-door, of processes, of stages of insight. I would not know the difference between concepts and realities. Nina. 45650 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view dacostacharles You got it. ----- Original Message ----- From: matheesha To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 May, 2005 01:11 Subject: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view Hi Charles, > If by sothapanna you mean those that have entered the steam of Dharama, it should be understand that though these individuals have the right view, they have to practice it regularly because the process of automatically taming the desires is not yet accomplished. > > CharlesD M: Yes, of course. Might I also add that there are other views other than self view. It is possible to be attached to all kinds of views and give rise to papanca. metta Matheesha 45651 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi Philip and all, My interpretation of both noble and ariyan comes from my early training in Buddhism. I was actually taught to interpret them as moral people. I don't remember the sutta references but the interpretation comes from suttras, in which the Buddha basically changed the definitions of the words. The Hindus had another definition for these words, they related to caste, birth right. The Buddha argued that people become nobles and ariyans not by birth nor sacrifices to the Gods, but by how they treat others. Maybe some one else will find the suttras I am speaking of, I have not look into them since the mid 70's. Now, I am bias, I believe the Buddha expected his teachings to guide people to enlightenment in one life time, and the teachings are usually easy to understand but often hard to do. This is because they require self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of Desire (this is what separated the nobles and ariyans from the worldlings). To the Buddha, Nobles and ariyans are self-sacrificing rather than animal-sacrificing. .................................. Some thing else: even the meanings/teachings of Abhidhamma often suffers do to subjective interpretations. I think you are interpreting noble and ariyan to mean "at least sotapanna". And I do not remember them having any thing to do with sotapanna. Yes, it is true that sometimes all WE can hope for is a brief experience of liberation, but I don't think it is as far away as you think. Yes, you have to give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done, and it is very very tough -- not impossible unless you really don't want it. .......................... The no-self doctrine also exist in religions like Satanism, evolution, and extreme capitalism. In the Buddha's day there was also another group that believed in the no-self (the anilist). ............................. I believe it is true that it is harder today than it was in the Buddha's day. However, I believe there are people who do it to the extreme (you expect) but you would think of them as homeless bums sleeping on the corner. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 May, 2005 02:09 Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Hi Charles, and all Ch:> Allow me to boldly show my arrogance, or Lions Roar, (which ever term you prefer). > > I choose to interpret/understand the term "Noble" as one who is moral, has tamed his/her desires. I choose to interpret/understand the term "disciples" as students of, instructed ones in, the dharma (way). I choose to interpret/understand the term "worldlings" as those that are caught up in self centered thinking, to the extent that morality is not really an issue to them. Ph: Yes, this "choose to interpret" is what we all do with suttas I think, unless we have help from commentaries, or read suttas with knowledge of Abhidhamma, which helps to prevent subjective interpretations. Techinically speaking, you're wrong here - it's pretty clear that "noble" means ariyan (ie at least sotapanna) but I think you know what you're doing. In another post today you lay out some personal theories, but add that you're having fun doing it, and I think having fun is important with Dhamma. ... 45652 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism dacostacharles Htoo Naing, I think I can vaguely remember hearing this before. Anyway, it is quit logical. There ... gotogo ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 May, 2005 17:53 Subject: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > I think the Buddha criticized ritual because most (99.9%) of the rituals he saw (in ancient India) could do nothing to aid in the escape from samsara or end suffering. > > Rituals that instilled principles like humility and kindness the Buddha liked because he felt they ripened the mind for his Dharma. > > CharlesD ------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Charles, Thanks for your participation. Once there were people who had believed other religion. When they became Buddhists they were still encourage to do their usual things like giving food and offering things to their teachers of other religion. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45653 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 2:46pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta christine_fo... Hello Hasituppada, Matheesha, Howard, Tep, all, Still going through the suttas you have all suggested ... Is there any opinion about SN XII.48 (8) A Cosmologist: "At Saavatthi. Then a brahmin who was a cosmologist approached the Blessed One ... and said to him: "How is it, Master Gotama: does all exist?" "'All exists': this, brahmin, is the oldest cosmology." "Then, Master Gotama, does all not exist?" "'All does not exist': this, brahmin, is the second cosmology." "How is it, Master Gotama: is all a unity?" "'All is a unity': this, brahmin, is the third cosmology." "'Then, Master Gotama, is all a plurality?" "'All is a plurality;: this, brahmin, is the fourth cosmology. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathaagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle..." When this was said, that brahmin said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! ... from today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life." Don't you think there would be a lot less confusion nowadays if, on one of these 'inscrutable' occasions, the Buddha had actually said: "This is how it IS ..... ... test it for yourselves" ... [and, if you think he did, show me, succinctly, where ...] I blame the brahmin and innumerable others like him :-) - who, just when they could have been saying "I don't get it ... it's not really clear ... well, how about this situation .... etc. etc." just reply as he did above, with a case of 'the magnificents' .... with (exasperated) metta, Chris 45654 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta buddhistmedi... Hi Chris - Please don't give up on the study of extreme views. The reward will be great when we can get rid of all extreme views! All difficult things, so far as I know, don't have an easy solution. May I suggest that you go to the origin of message # 45648 and review all the provided references on extreme views. After that please tell me if you feel better? Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Hasituppada, Matheesha, Howard, Tep, all, > (snipped) > I blame the brahmin and innumerable others like him :-) - who, just > when they could have been saying "I don't get it ... it's not really > clear ... well, how about this situation .... etc. etc." just reply > as he did above, with a case of 'the magnificents' .... > > with (exasperated) metta, > Chris 45655 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi James - I know you liked the remarks like that because they also were not diplomatic and rather blunt. But Sarah has surprised me by her unshakable self confidence with no aversion. Other moderators are not like her. I remember not so long ago that I had to leave the TripleGem because the newly appointed moderator there banded my message. Sarah and Jon can do the same to us, but they are not narrow-minded or power hungry. And I admire them for these qualities. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep and Sarah, > > You make some very astute remarks, in your posts to Sarah, which I > want to draw attention to: > > Post #45628 (snipped) > > Metta, > James 45656 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 0:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 5/17/05 5:47:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Don't you think there would be a lot less confusion nowadays if, on one of these 'inscrutable' occasions, the Buddha had actually said: "This is how it IS ..... ... test it for yourselves" ========================= Probably the Buddha, with his divine eye, foresaw that had he been more explicit, future generations of followers wouldn't have the joy of online Dhamma disputations! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45657 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... lbidd2 Hi Howard, Larry: "In other words, the definition of "two" depends on conventions (social agreements) rather than twoness, whereas pleasant feeling is a phenomenon of pleasant feeling-ness rather than something we agree on." ==================== Howard: "Are you absolutely sure of this, Larry? Speaking ordinary-speak for the moment, Larry, pleasantness also is a matter of convention. And what we call "red" is a matter of convention. Is it TWO, per se, that is a matter of convention, or is it what we CALL "two" that is the matter of convention?" L: I'm pretty sure that is the abhidhamma definition of reality, or close to it. I don't see how a feeling can be a matter of convention and the pleasant nature is just its flavour. Pleasant feeling isn't something different in France or China. But the word "two" is meaningless in those places. I suspect you are angling for total relativity but that position is based on an infinite regress, parts of parts of parts, ad infinitum. There is no impermanence without a reality that arises, ages, and ceases. Howard: "There is something VERY interesting about left and right. We all know which is which, and even without names we can distinguish them. I challenge you, however, to verbally define either one of them!!! It seems they have more of a physical reality than a conceptual, definitional one!!!" L: My dictionary says left is westward when facing north. Also the word "left" originally referred to the weak hand. Larry 45658 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/05 7:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Larry: "In other words, the definition of "two" depends on conventions (social agreements) rather than twoness, whereas pleasant feeling is a phenomenon of pleasant feeling-ness rather than something we agree on." ==================== Howard: "Are you absolutely sure of this, Larry? Speaking ordinary-speak for the moment, Larry, pleasantness also is a matter of convention. And what we call "red" is a matter of convention. Is it TWO, per se, that is a matter of convention, or is it what we CALL "two" that is the matter of convention?" L: I'm pretty sure that is the abhidhamma definition of reality, or close to it. I don't see how a feeling can be a matter of convention and the pleasant nature is just its flavour. Pleasant feeling isn't something different in France or China. But the word "two" is meaningless in those places. I suspect you are angling for total relativity but that position is based on an infinite regress, parts of parts of parts, ad infinitum. There is no impermanence without a reality that arises, ages, and ceases. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: What I'm angling for is the realization that there is not a complete unreality to twoness. In its way it is observed. There is a difference between one, two, and three, and these distinctions are not "unreal". ----------------------------------------------- Howard: "There is something VERY interesting about left and right. We all know which is which, and even without names we can distinguish them. I challenge you, however, to verbally define either one of them!!! It seems they have more of a physical reality than a conceptual, definitional one!!!" L: My dictionary says left is westward when facing north. Also the word "left" originally referred to the weak hand. ---------------------------------- Howard: I think your dictionary has it backwards. West is to the left when facing north. And for some folks, the weak hand is not the left. -------------------------------- Larry ========================= With both hands, left & right, extended in metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45659 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta lbidd2 Hi Christine, Re. SNXII,48 (8), there is quite a bit of commentarial material in B.Bodhi's trans., Wisdom edition. The views rejected by the Buddha are variants of eternalism and nihilism. The middle way is dependent arising. Larry 45660 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... lbidd2 Howard: "What I'm angling for is the realization that there is not a complete unreality to twoness. In its way it is observed. There is a difference between one, two, and three, and these distinctions are not "unreal"." Hi Howard, That is part of my position as outlined in the two recent posts to Rob M. regarding a proposal that we add another category: reality, concept, and "formation". I believe I made brief reference to this problem in the original reply on this thread. Larry 45661 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 5:54pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta philofillet H Christine I'm going back to your original post - I don't think I responded the first time. > Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) > I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the > aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing > standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that > feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the > sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an > omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. Ph: Well, I'm sure you've already gone over this one, but doesn't the annata sutta say as much? "Because consciousness (etc) is nonself, consciousness leads to afflection, and it is not possible to have it of consciousness: "Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness not be thus." In that lordly imperative "Let my consciousness be thus" isn't there the feeling of an Omnipotent god that is looking over the khandas, commanding them to be this way or that, and isn't it rejected by the Buddha here." That's what this says to me. As for the cosmologists, and the middle view, the Buddha is often so paradoxical with us to keep us from being overconfident. I think of that great "crossing the flood" sutta (you know- when I stayed in place I sank but when I pressed forward I was swept away) which opens Samyutta Nikaya - surely that is placed where it is to estbalish right from the beginning of this Nikaya that we should learn to be comfortable with paradoxes and not expect clear-cut intellectual solutions. There will always be a lot of hunches, a lot of intuition, the need for a lot of patience - lifetimes of patience. Of course you've heard that before... Chris, do you mind if I ask why you are trying to sort this out now? Is it related to the Dhamma slump/loss of interest in Dhamma study that you have mentionned a couple of times in the past. I think at that time, I mentionned that your job, where you are in contact with people going through intense physical and emotional suffering day in day out myst make it harder for you to appreciate the true Dhamma, which says that these people are receiving the results of their khamma, and that solutions to their suffering will come ever so gradually. I wonder if your daily shifts at work are not equivalents in some sense to the Buddha's chariot ride, in which he saw the sick and the dead and was motivated to find an answer to their suffering. Maybe when you see the sick and the dead you are motivated to question the answer that the Buddah found. If this is the case, technically speaking (and not in the prejorative sense) there is citta with no root except moha. THere is ignorance of realities at that time. An this would be confirmed by your current lack of appreciating the constant reminders from Kh Sujin and toher friends that there is seeing now etc. But I think it's true that coming back to what is happening now - right now - is the only way to get through your slump. May I suggest that you hang out with the Khandasamyutta, or the Salayatanasamyutta, just soak up all the suttas that get at the ephemeral momentary nature of what is happening now through the six doors? Or, on the other hand, maybe exploring a religion that *does* allow for an atta. Have you ever read the Bhagavad Gita? It's so beautiful. Maybe it's time for you to explore a way of faith that does provide us with the comfort of an eternal soul? Or go with both for awhile. I remember reading that when Nina first met Kh Sujin, and was still a Catholic, Kh Sujin suggested that she carry on with both until she knew which was right, or words to that effect. Anyways, Christine, I hope you can find this sutta you're looking for. I've often thought that understanding Dhamma with the necessary patience would be harder for you because of the suffering you see day in day out at work. You're such a compassionate person. Hang in there. Metta, Phil 45662 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:53pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta philofillet Hi again Christine > there is nothing > > standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - > that > > feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... I remember listening to one of the recorded talks in which it was discussed whether there is a difference between "not self" and "no self." At one point - I'm pretty sure - you said it seemed to you that while the Buddha says seeing, for example is not self, and hearing is not self and this is not self and that is not self and so on and so on, it suggested to you that it was implying that at the end of this list there was something that *was* self - why didn't he come out and say "there is no self." Personally, I think it makes a difference if we use a hyphen. Seeing is not self is different from seeing is not-self. The former is about the lack of a self, the latter is about the chracteristic of dhammas that gradually is revealed as we understand seeing itself better through moments of mindfulness of it. This "not- self" is not nihilistic - it doesn't mean that there is no hope for progress. It is through this not-self that coonditions can work their way, and as we know conditions can be cultivated, there can be movement towards more and more wholesomeness - right now. As the Buddha said "wholesomeness can be cultivated - I wouldn't tell you it could be it it weren't true." (paraphrase of a sutta) So this not-self, this characteristic of dhammas, which cannot be understood or grasped intellectually but is only revelaed gradually as we understood realities now, is different, I think, from not self (the absence of an eternal self that can control cittas). The latter can make us feel funkish, hopeless. It is nothing but an absence. But the latter, this not-self is the very thing that makes conditionality possible, which makes fluidity possible, which makes change possible, which makes growth possible, which makes moevement towards wholesomeness possible. I like what Rob K said once - every moment can become "utterly perfective and instructive" (or was it "perfect and utterly instructive?") Metta, Phil 45663 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/05 8:10:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, That is part of my position as outlined in the two recent posts to Rob M. regarding a proposal that we add another category: reality, concept, and "formation". I believe I made brief reference to this problem in the original reply on this thread. Larry ========================== I don't think we should get all that involved with proliferating categories. The problem, as I see it is that, for one thing, there are varying and types of "reality", and for another and much more important thing, there is nothing whatsoever except for nibbana that is a stand-alone, self-existent reality. And so, in looking at the phenomena experienced by worldlings, any and all such phenomena, whether seen directly or through the good offices of our conceptual faculties, we should be less concerned with their "reality" as with their fragility, their impermanence, their inability to satisfy, and their utter lack of independent existence (or reality). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45664 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/05 10:57:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... meant to write: The problem, as I see it is that, for one thing, there are varying DEGREES and types of "reality", and for another and much more important thing, there is nothing whatsoever except for nibbana that is a stand-alone, self-existent reality. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45665 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: dana and sila philofillet Hi Nina Welcome back. Hope you and Lodewijk had a nice time in Belgium. > N: dana not only includes giving material things, also appreciation of other > people's good deeds, and 'extending merit'. The last one is letting others, > dead or alive, know of our kusala so that they also have kusala cittas. > Also keeping the precepts can be seen under the aspect of dana: you give > others the opportunity to live in peace, without trouble. > Also forgiving is a form of dana, you wish others to be free from harm. Ph: My understanding of the precepts has become so much clearer - it is in moments of abstaining from unwholesome deeds that we keep the precepts. And this is when there can be this form of dana - in the moment. Making a solemn vow not to kill when there is no opportunity to kill is not so meaningful. It is when there is a momentary opportunity to kill, to steal, to covet that there can be keeping of a precept. Otherwise it is just thinking about precepts. Which isn't bad, but it a different reality... I'm sure I mentionned this before, but I like what Thich Nhat Hahn said about these immaterial forms of dana - that our presence is one of the best gifts we can give. Really listening to the person, for example. I find that arising when I'm teaching and find myself slouching (we sit around small tables, conversation style) and thinking about something else - there is sometimes a returning to full presence, an arising of a kind of dana when I find myself tuning back in to the student, co-worker, Naomi etc... Still haven't come through on my intention to donate something to the Dhamma foundation, by the way. I am stingy in that sense, still. Even though I have enough money. Even though I have benefited so much... > Ph: I always keep in mind something I learned from Kh Sujin - if we > don't appreciate the importance of dana and sila, we won't be able > to develop panna. The thought of developing panna is so sexy that I > overlook sila and dana. > ------- > N: So this becomes clearer. Dana, sila and bhavana are closely connected. > But this is important: we have to learn that kusala citta and all those > sobhana cetasikas that assist kusala citta are only namas, citta and > cetasikas, arising because of the proper conditions. That is: good > friendship, accumulation of kusala in the past, wise attention. > Cittas are so fast, they have gone before you know it, and thus, how could > we direct them? Ph: We can't direct them but we can feel hopeful because of the Buddha's teaching that wholesomess is to be cultivated and can be cultivated. We just have to be patient, keep listening, keep reflecting without over-reaching for results. When I listen to the recorded talks I feel such respect (and affection, I must admit) for you and Sarah and Jon and others who have been listening to Kh Sujin for decades now, but are still so patient and modest in your expectations. (I assume - who knows what is going on in the other's citta stream? - maybe you're all secretly lusting after nibanna!) >> It is kusala to see akusala as a condiitoned nama. Ph: Yes, this is very important. I think there is a tendency to jerk away from akusala too quickly and get caught up in regret and worry, not realizing that that regret and worry are akusala too. Metta, Phil 45666 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:58pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: I know you liked the remarks like that because they also were not diplomatic and rather blunt. But Sarah has surprised me by her unshakable self confidence with no aversion. James: ;-)) Tep, you made those comments with in the past two days! LOL! You talk as if this was years ago and since then you have learned the error of your ways. Did you have a Road to Damascus moment five minutes ago? ;-) And Sarah has aversion. I have rattled her cage on a few occasions and she snapped back- always to apologize later, of course. Don't confuse being British with having no aversion. ;-) I rattle her cage on purpose of course- to break her out of it. Just think of the good kamma I would get if I got her to start meditating again! ;-)) Tep: the newly appointed moderator there banded my message. Sarah and Jon can do the same to us, but they are not narrow-minded or power hungry. And I admire them for these qualities. James: I wasn't commenting on how Sarah or Jon run the group; I was seconding your comments about Sarah's mode of communication. And what I was doing is perfectly within the Buddhadhamma. The Sangha, following instructions from the Buddha, would periodically meet and all of the members were supposed to point out any faults in the behavior or attitude of their fellow monks. The offending monk was to be grateful for this criticism and to make corrections to his behavior. If you tell Sarah that this is what she is doing, and I tell Sarah that this is what she is doing, then Sarah isn't being `self confident', Sarah is being obstinate. The Buddha scolded obstinate monks. I welcome anyone, on-list or off, to comment to me on my behavior. That is the only way to learn. Phil wrote to me some months back and told me with evidence, logic and compassion that I was trying to hard to protect the dhamma. I agreed so with him so I have backed off on posting since then. I don't post nearly as often or nearly as fiercely. And Tep, if you think I am bad now, you would hardly imagine what I was like before you joined! ;-). Anyway, I've said my peace. Metta, James 45667 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:02pm Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results philofillet Hi Charles and all > My interpretation of both noble and ariyan comes from my early training in Buddhism. I was actually taught to interpret them as moral people. I don't remember the sutta references but the interpretation comes from suttras, in which the Buddha basically changed the definitions of the words. The Hindus had another definition for these words, they related to caste, birth right. The Buddha argued that people become nobles and ariyans not by birth nor sacrifices to the Gods, but by how they treat others. Ph: I think you mentionned before that your bacdground is in Mahayana - I remember you knew the Parmis as 6 rather than 10. So it could be a difference there. But unless I'm mistaken (someone correct me if I am, please) in Theravada, ariyan refers to someone who has reached at least the first stage of enlightenment, the sotappana. So we have a different interpretation on your part. Fair enough. > > Some thing else: even the meanings/teachings of Abhidhamma often suffers do to subjective interpretations. > > I think you are interpreting noble and ariyan to mean "at least sotapanna". And I do not remember them having any thing to do with sotapanna. Again, I think the suttas are quite explicit on this point. Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary notes are, at least. I agree with you, yes, we who are new to Abhidhamma will make subjective interpretations to make everything fit togeher nicely. Sure. But still less room for this, because there is less conventional language, few narratives. > > Yes, it is true that sometimes all WE can hope for is a brief experience of liberation, but I don't think it is as far away as you think. Yes, you have to give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done, and it is very very tough -- not impossible unless you really don't want it. Ph: Maybe I am secretly hoping for liberation much sooner but am vesting my posts in words about patience - a kind of strategy of self lying back, pretending to be out of the picture. Who knows? Maybe you and others are just more honest about wanting liberation in this lifetime. I think we we say things are very very tough we are setting up a project for self. I think it's impossible to do things that are "tough" without self at the center of it. But as you said yesterday, in your viewpoint it is necessary to use a health self, a healthy ego to work towards eliminating self. As I said, I know what you mean because I thought so as well as recently as 6 months ago and - who knows? - may feel that way again someday. > > The no-self doctrine also exist in religions like Satanism, evolution, and extreme capitalism. In the Buddha's day there was also another group that believed in the no-self (the anilist). I don't think annata is nihilistic. I wrote something about that to Christine today. Anatta is what allows us the fluditiy to change, I think, to grow, to develop more wholesome tendencies. We are not stuck in self-created stories. There can be wholesome change at every moment because at every moment "we" are just rupa and nama rising and falling in a conditioned way. We are not stuck in being Phil or Charles with all the baggage, all the stories. I enjoy discussing these things with you, Charles. Metta, Phil 45668 From: "kenhowardau" 45669 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta kenhowardau HI Christine (and Howard), ----------- C: > Don't you think there would be a lot less confusion nowadays if, on one of these 'inscrutable' occasions, the Buddha had actually said: "This is how it IS ..... ... test it for yourselves" ----------- As you know, there are Abhidhamma-style suttas that say exactly 'this how it is' and there are also conventional-style suttas. Even the latter tell us exactly how it is, *provided* they are understood in the context of the former. In the Buddha's day, almost everyone would have known how to interpret the conventional-style discourses. Today, however, almost no one knows, and so we see the predicted decline in the sasana: we see people acting-out things that only panna (and the other Path cetasikas) can do. Just my opinion, of course. :-) Ken H PS: It seems Howard has sparked a resurgence in this thread: just while I was formulating my reply, everyone has got in ahead of me! Oh well, better late than never. PPS: And then my post got lost! I think the fault was at this end, in which case it's unlikely to show up twice, but my apologies if it does. KH 45670 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta kenhowardau Oh dear, how embarrassment! :-) KH 45671 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:51pm Subject: Fiver Generations foamflowers Dear Dhammafriends, After spending a life time of stress and worry over what should or should not be done or said, trying to control rather than letting go... I truly enjoyed my family and did not wish to be or not to be when it started getting crazy...lol...even when sisters and daughter were stressing over children who wouldn't stop their chatter and crying or coming and going, cleaning, cooking, soothing bumbs and bruises, kisses and hugs, cooking and cleaning and remembering to be mindful of all this coming and going again, and again, and again. We all stayed together at my Sister's house and it was a tight fit! Sean, 8 months, is my first Grandchild and he really liked me, we spent most of our time hanging out with each other. Sean really likes balls and water bottles, he is an easy baby to please. It was very nice to have a baby (Grandson) take to liking me so quickly. I could give his Mom a break so she could rest and spend some quiet time with the family and herself. I will be back with some interesting stories on letting go, crying babies, stressing Sisters, Daughters, and the Husbands and a boyfriend who laughed through it all rolling their eyes when ever Moms or Grandmas ran by chasing kids or kids chasing their Mom's and or Grandma's. I will try and tell the stories with Abhidhamma words too. With Metta, Lisa 45673 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi James, I can 'hear' you... OK, I'll get back to you on nibbana and bodhipakkhiya dhammas soonish.... --- buddhatrue wrote: >And Sarah has aversion. I have rattled her cage on > a few occasions and she snapped back- always to apologize later, of > course. Don't confuse being British with having no aversion. ;-) I > rattle her cage on purpose of course- to break her out of it. Just > think of the good kamma I would get if I got her to start meditating > again! ;-)) ... snap, snap!! Sarah > And Tep, if you think I am bad now, you would > hardly imagine what I was like before you joined! ;-). Anyway, I've > said my peace. ... True, ... and here's to peace too;-). =============== 45674 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:24pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 197 - Enthusiasm/piiti (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] At the first stage of rúpa-jhåna all five jhåna-factors arise with the jhånacitta. At each of the higher stages of jhåna the jhånacitta becomes more refined and more tranquil, and the jhåna-factors are successively abandoned. At the second stage (of the five-fold system) vitakka is abandoned and at the third stage vicåra. At that stage there are three jhåna-factors remaining: píti, happy feeling (sukha) and concentration (samådhi). At the fourth stage píti has been abandoned but happy feeling still arises. In the case of the kåmåvacara cittas, píti arises whenever there is pleasant feeling, but this is not so in the case of the jhåna-citta of the fourth stage of jhåna. The jhånacitta without píti is more tranquil, more refined. The kind of píti which has been abandoned at this stage is the “pervading happiness” which is of the highest intensity. The person who has experienced this kind of píti and is able to forego it is worthy of praise as stated by the Atthasåliní (I, Part V, Chapters 111, 175). At the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna (the fourth of the four-fold system and the fifth of the five-fold system) the jhåna-factor of sukha has been abandoned and píti does not arise either at this stage. As regards arúpåvacara cittas, they are of the same type as the rúpåvacara cittas of the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna, and thus they are not accompanied by píti. As regards lokuttara cittas, they are not always accompanied by píti, this depends on different conditions (1). *** 1) See Atthasåliní II, Part VIII, Chapter I, 228, and Vis. XXI, 112. For details on cittas accompanied by píti, see Appendix 5. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45675 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: pariyatti, by Sukin, continued. kenhowardau Hi Nina (and Sarah and Sukin), Welcome back. I enjoyed this post very much. And I enjoyed the original by Sukin, of course. ------------------------ N: > When Sarah asked what the characteristic of visible object is Khun Sujin gave a very meaningful answer which is well worth considering: ------------------------ That made me interested to read the answer, although I assumed it would be something I already knew: ------------------------------------------- N: > "A reality. Can anybody do something about it at this moment?" -------------------------------------------- That made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. :-) Thank you, Nina, Sarah and Sukin, for retelling some of your discussions with Khun Sujin. For me, it's the next best thing to being there. Ken H 45676 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:07am Subject: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, Thx for your feedback so far and for dividing the comments into separate threads which is v.helpful. I hope you don’t mind if I get this second installment out first. Please feel free to chop and re-format etc as you see fit. Contd #44125 – the 4 kinds of death or ‘catu maranuppati’. V.interesting topic and good post. I was unclear on aayukkayena, kammakkhayena etc, so checked CMA p220 ‘Guide’. Many interesting details and it also mentions the same analogy: “An oil lamp, for example, may be extinguished due to the exhaustion of the wick, the exhaustion of the oil, the simultaneous exhaustion of both, or some extraneous cause, like a gust of wind.” The Guide adds some extra details and I don’t know where they come from. For example, it mentions in regard to the first kind, aayukkayena, expiration of the life-span, that this refers to realms where life-span has a definite limit or in human realm where death in old age is due to natural causes. Then it says: “If the productive kamma is still not exhausted when death takes place through reaching the maximum age, the kammic force can generate another rebirth on the same plane or on some higher plane, as in the case of the devas.” Hmmm . In the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha it just mentions ‘death as a result of the final exhaustion of the life-span as defined for a particular destiny, although the power of kamma still exists, is death due to exhaustion of life-span.” More to investigate here.....maybe Dispeller, for anyone Sleepless in Seattle - Connie or Mike?? #45387- 4 akusala vaci kamma of telling lies etc. It’s stressed in the texts that these can be through speech or the body-door, eg by a gesture or the keyboard! You say that divisive speech ‘may also be musaavaada’, ‘harsh speech is usually untrue words’ and unfruitful speech ‘is also related to musaavaada kamma’. I’m not sure. For example, harsh speech (pharusa vaacaa) has these 3 constituent factors only, accord to Atth.: a) another to be abused, b) angry thought, c) the abuse. It also says “By ‘harsh speech’ is meant the entirely harsh volition which produces a bodily and vocal effort, stabbing another as with a mortal wond.” It then gives the good examples of how a teacher may appear to speak harshly (‘these shameless, reckless lads..Turn them out!’) but with a gentle heart, while a murderer might appear to speak gently (‘let him sleep in comfort’) but because the thoughts are harsh, the words are harsh. Anyway, my point was that I think that if there are any lies, it comes under musaavaada. #45413 – you say ‘whether there are silent or not akusala always has a mental source. So mano-kamma is the worst.” It’s true that mind-door cittas are always involved, but when we refer to kamma-patha such as killing, it is by way of kaaya or vaci kamma, surely? Humans, insects etc – see U.P. ‘killing’. It always come back to the cetana..usually more effort and greater intention to kill for a large animal or human...there may also be much planning and thinking about it afterwards. (Killing with wrong view worse than without, Phil.) #45415 – another post on Metta, so I may as well respond here. We can read in the Vism, 1X, 8 onwards about the meaning of ‘May I be happy...etc’. it explains that: “ ‘just as I want to be happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings too’, making himself the example, then desire for other beings’ welfare and happiness arises in him. And this method is indicated by the Blessed One’s saying: ‘I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another’ (Si,75; Ud 47).” ... In other words, the metta is developed to other beings, prompted by the reflection that they all wish to be happy and healthy, just like we do. What we think of as metta to ourselves is pure attachment, as I see it. #45531 – good post, I just question the use of ‘chooses’ as in ‘if citta chooses category 1 of pasaada rupa...etc’. Citta experiences its object according to conditions, no chance or way to ‘choose’:). #45536 – you say ‘the only thing different is that vipassanaa or satipatthaana is totally different from any form of meditations.’ At other times, I think you say that meditation is a translation of bhavana. Of course, vipassana is bhavana (meditation). You go on to say here that many who developed samatha ‘never learned anatta, which is the end-product-concept of satipatthaana.’ Are you sure that you mean anatta is a concept? Also in this post you say that ‘vipassana is based on any of these 40 kammatthaanas or based on naama dhamma or ruupa dhamma...’ Pls clarify. #45572 – you say ‘bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala kamma......’ What does this mean? Does it mean no development at all of samatha or satipatthana is possible until all akusala is eradicated or all akusala kamma patha even? You continue to say ‘he or she will have to keep basic precepts observed all the time. He or she has to abandon bad mind of any form’. Yet we know that only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and only an arahant has ‘abandoned bad mind of any form’ surely? #? – ok, walking is creeping/butting in here.... You said in a post to Jon that ‘there is no mention of sitting meditation, walking meditation by The Buddha.’ Could you say this a little louder?:). Then you write ‘The Buddha did preach to contemplate on all events through out the day and night and as long as conscious.’ So what are ‘events’ again that should be clearly understood with sati-sampajanna (awareness and clear comprehension)? #44297 – ‘Meditate, Ananda, meditate’. You ask about the meaning and whether it refers to ‘go to a forest, go to the foot of a tree....’. According to the comy, meditate here refers to ‘develop samatha and vipassana’. Did Ananda spend all his time at the foot of a tree? Why not if this was the best way to become an arahant? Metta, Sarah ======= 45677 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:23am Subject: Metta - Phil & Betty sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Betty, I checked with AlanW who runs the Zolag website about your enquiries. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 1. "All books [S:i.e.'Cetasikas', 'Metta' etc] can be bought from www.wisdom-books.com the address is listed under my Order menu." 2. "Metta has mysteriously vanished it looks as if it has been overwritten by Deeds of Merit. I will have a search for the original." 3."The original typsetting of Taking Refuge in Buddhism is on the website." (Betty, this was the book you enquired about when we last saw you). Metta, Sarah ========== 45678 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Hi CharlesD (& Phil) --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Philip and all, > > My interpretation of both noble and ariyan comes from my early training > in Buddhism. I was actually taught to interpret them as moral people. I > don't remember the sutta references but the interpretation comes from > suttras, in which the Buddha basically changed the definitions of the > words. The Hindus had another definition for these words, they related > to caste, birth right. The Buddha argued that people become nobles and > ariyans not by birth nor sacrifices to the Gods, but by how they treat > others. ... S: Butting back into this thread I see I once started:) Charles, you may be thinking of 'brahman' rather than 'ariyan' as in Dhammapada 386 (Narada transl): "He who is meditative*, stainless and secluded, he who has done his duty and is free from corruptions, he who has attained the Highest Goal, - him I call a braahma.na." *-'he who practises concentrations (samatha) and insight (vipassanaa).' Hope this helps. Good to read all your threads, Charles. Metta, Sarah p.s Grateful when you make it clear exactly whom your post is addressed to as you usually (but not always!!) do. ===================================== 45679 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view sarahprocter... Hi AndrewT, A quick note before another 'Andrew deadline':) I think others like Htoo have answered all yr qus. --- Andrew wrote: > Hello all > > Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency > of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI > note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. > A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a > sotapanna still has papanca. Right? > How do we reconcile this? ... S: As Htoo said, papanca can be with or without wrong view.In context, however, I'm speculating that it may be this particular kind of papanca being referred to. Sakka originally was asking about the causes of the bonds of envy and stinginess (issa-macchariya)leading to hostility, violence and cruelty. These are eradicated by sotapatti magga when wrong view of self is eradicated. The wrong view that leads to them, we read results from papa~nca-sa~n~na-sankhaa. Happiness (somanassa) of 2 kinds, sorrow etc - as object of kusala or akusala, i.e to be known or not known, leading to kusala or akusala states. Vitakka, vicara -- I think as others (Matheesha?) pointed out, this is referrring to a) ordinary consciousness and 1st jhana and b) 2nd jhana up. (I don't have any comy notes and haven't checked TB's...so just my ideas). Lots of good messages under 'thinking' in U.P. (inc a couple from MattR:)), also under 'vitakka'. As Htoo and others pointed out, apart from certain jhanas, vitakka and vicara arise with all sobhana cittas, inc all cittas with panna. Better not to confuse these cetasikas with what we conventionally refer to as thinking. So, no it doesn't make sense to suggest that with the growth of panna, there is less vitakka-vicara, but less thinking or proliferation about what is experienced through the sense doors, yes. Not sure I'm adding anything, but wish you all a cheery, chocolate-less Cooran get-together....:) Look f/w to the reports. metta, Sarah ======== 45680 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma sukinderpal Hi Ken H, Thanks for the support. As you may know, more than 90% of my dhamma input these past few years has been DSG and K. Sujin. All reference to the Tipitaka is through these two sources. So I don't want to be giving the wrong impression that I am well informed about what is actually written in the texts. My present understanding of the Buddha teachings is from reading/hearing what K. Sujin, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert, you, Kom, and some others have said and seeing how this makes most sense when observing my own experiences. We have all had a different understanding of the Buddha's words and many of us have also meditated. However what used to make sense, no more does. This question about Dhamma and the way it should be presented is I think, very interesting. There is no control over how someone will `teach' dhamma, but the way they do, does reflect to a good extent where their priorities lie, and this in turn shows the level of understanding/misunderstanding. In the end I think we have to leave it to accumulations and any panna to steer us away from the wrong path, again and again, having had the good kamma to come across the wise friend who shows us the way. Up until just a few days ago, I was entertaining the thought that it might be easier to convince certain non-Buddhists of the correct interpretation of the Buddha's teachings than it would Buddhists who have already made up their minds about it. But today, I don't think this, because wrong view is *deep*. Real panna arises so rarely, the rest of the time it is the very influential lobha and ditthi. Logic and reasoning is a useful tool for those of us who agree, but for opposing views, it does not work most of the time. In fact, I doubt that you can reason anyone into Right View. Someone would be attracted to it only if there was the accumulated panna. But then one doesn't know what it takes to kindle any hidden potential. ;-) There are benefits to discussing, so in the end one continues doing it. ;-) Metta, Sukinder --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Matheesha, > > I hope you and Sukin do have a discussion. It is interesting that 45681 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: pariyatti, by Sukin, continued. sukinderpal Dear Nina, Thank you for the encouragement and for adding your remarks. I don't think there can ever be enough discussions on pariyatti. Not only do we need to understand that pariyatti is a necessary precedent to patipatti, but also to be reminded constantly about what it *really* is. `Self' is forever seeking results and patience is called for when the Path is being treaded. We forget that the purpose of studying the Teachings is detachment, and instead end up `using' knowledge to wrongly practice, as in the general interpretation of the Satipatthana Sutta. This is one reason we need to be reminded about pariyatti again and again for else wrong patipatti will be conditioned to arise. And wrong understanding which conditions the kind of practice often says that it can do away with intellectual understanding :-/. I remember after my first Goenka retreat, I asked for the mailing address of the meditation instructor from one of the other staffs. I felt gratitude and wanted to send him a copy of the B. Bodhi's translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. But I was discouraged from doing that, though I finally got it and did send him a copy. Are these Buddhists or what? ;-) Metta, Sukinder --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear Sukin and all, > I read Sukin's post on pariyatti twice to Lodewijk on his request. > I shall quote some parts of it again, with remarks added. 45682 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (& Larry*) I have 3 of your posts in front of me which you've probably forgotten about by now. I know you never mind if my responses are slow and you weren't asking for more comments anyway:) --- upasaka@... wrote: > Here is my personal, non-Abhidhamma hypothesis: Many phenomena > "arise in > conciousness" at the same time, including various rupas (an entire > kalapa > thereof) and numerous cetasikas. ... S: Can we say 'many phenomena "are experienced by consciousness", including various rupas....' .... >Quite shortly after experiencing > hardness, for > example, there is the recalling that other rupas and a variety of > cetasikas, > including pleasant feeling for example, were present as well. Such > veridical > recollecting could not take place unless the prior experiences actually > occurred. > But there are levels of intensity to experiential presence of phenomena, > and > at any moment all but one phenomenon occur subliminally as regards > awareness > of them, and only the one that is not subliminal registers at the level > of > "object". It is like a choir of people on a stage. They are all there, > but only > one is soloist. Which particular phenomenon occurs strongly enough to > register > as object is multiply conditioned, largely by kamma, and even with > regard to > actual objects, not all of them are strong enough to clearly "register". ... S: I like the analogy of the choir and soloist with only one 'particular phenomenon' occurring strongly enough 'to register' depending on kamma and other conditions. Citta only ever experiences one object and awareness can only ever be aware of one object. However, I think we can begin to understand (at least in theory)how all rupas must be supported by other rupas when they arise, just as the Buddha taught. For example, the 'colour' of hair cannot arise without pathavi (hardness), tejo (temperature) etc. Likewise the sound of thunder or any other rupas must arise in groups. But at any time, as you say, only one 'stands out' or is directly experienced. *Larry, as I see it, just as a khandha is nothing other than the various rupas or vedanas etc, so a kalapa is nothing other than the various rupas. It's a concept used to describe realities, just as visible object is as concept used to describe a single reality. Shape is a concept about a concept, so it's not a khandha or kalapa or dhamma with sabhava. Motion is a concept about a reality (vayo), depending on how we use the term. A chariot or computer is a concept about a concept. There is no chariot or computer and they are neither conditioned or impermanent on anything other than a conceptual level. As you say, we cannot see a computer. What is seen is visible object (rupa khandha). What is heard, touched....etc are also rupa khandha. We end up with the conventions of 'a being', 'a computer', 'a chariot' because of thinking only. Howard, I know we're on the same page with computers and chariots. Back to thinking and planning (#45322), of course they are necessary. How else would you have got to Disneyland with your family?? Thinking and planning will occur with or without any development of satipatthana. It would be quite wrong to think it should stop. As for planning the development of satipatthana itself, I think it's like the examples of the chicks hatching -- if the conditions are right, they'll hatch, regardless of the wishing or not wishing. On our last visit to Bkk, we discussed more about the asymetry between vedana and sanna as you put it....and the great importance we give to feelings in a day and then all the recollections about what has been experienced through the senses. I did have another good quote but can't find it now. Maybe a Musing later as there's more to add...I appreciated your good points to raise as always. Some of the best discussions we've had in Bkk in recent years have been prompted by your pertinent questions and not being satisfied by our half-baked answers, Howard. I learn a lot from hearing different reflections on sutta passages or abhidhamma details here. Metta, Sarah ======== 45683 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, --- matheesha wrote: > M: Mmm.. would you mind telling us about these experiences? We might > all learn something from it. ... S: Whatever experiences we've had, are having or will have are only those of the 6 worlds appearing. We think we have so many special experiences, but even for the ariyans, there are merely the worlds of visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, mind door objects appearing. Nothing special at all. I think, with respect, we can only learn from understanding the present world appearing. ... <...> > M: In a sense the whole path is about letting go. Sila - letting go > of unwholesome actions. Samadhi- letting go of 5 > hindrences/defilements and other agitations of the mind. Panna- > understanding the true nature of existence -which leads to letting > go of all conditioned phenomena. ... S: Thanks for your other comments on nekkhama and theseones. So to understand the 'true nature of existence', I think we have to understand the six worlds more and more clearly first. ... > > But the fetters tie us to phenomena. Even though a sothapanna > experiences nibbana momentarily his 'mind' is 'brought back' to the > sensory (kama/rupa/arupa) world because of the fetters. Jhana gives > stregnth to the mind to pull against the fetters and reexperience > phala citta again. > > Jhana is a very powerful thing. It would be difficult to act against > the fetters with a mind without strong samadhi. > > :) sorry if all this is a bit 'rich'. I might be delusional for all > you know! Not claiming anything. I might be wrong, but I feel > comfortable right now with my understanding and it has withstood the > test of time. ... S: That's fine. I'm glad to understand the way you see things better. .... > M: I know little about zen practice. Mostly from the lady who does > the zen class after I attend to mine. They dont believe in talking > about the dhamma -just experiencing. Cuts out the vitakka, vicara. ... S: I don't think this is possible or the right way. I think there also has to be a certain amount of talking first:). .... > They just use bare awareness, with their eyes open and attend to > phenomena. When my mind is quiet after practice, I find this > attractive. ... S: I think this is fine, but do they know what 'phenomena' are? Is there any understanding of phenomena as khandhas or dhatus (elements)? ... > > > p.s I'm not doing it now, but I try to remember to compose any long > > messages off-line in a word doc in case they get lost like yours > did. > > M: I usually do ... thanks im on call today. So this is giving me a > nice break. ... S: I recommend it to others, but as often as not don't do it myself, like now:-/ Are you a medic? Thanks for your reasoned and reasonable comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 45684 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/18/05 5:00:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: As for planning the development of satipatthana itself, I think it's like the examples of the chicks hatching -- if the conditions are right, they'll hatch, regardless of the wishing or not wishing. ==================== Wishing for insight will not produce insight, but there is cultivation of the mind, it involves many volitional activities, and just like the Mama Chick sitting on her eggs, without the cultivation, wishes will come to naught. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45685 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Wishing for insight will not produce insight, but there is > cultivation of > the mind, it involves many volitional activities, and just like the Mama > > Chick sitting on her eggs, without the cultivation, wishes will come to > naught. ... S: :) Right, I agree with all this and like the way you've put the last part. 'Many volitional activities' is a little vague, but if it refers to 'many sankhara (khandha) dhammas', then it would be just fine. Time for a walk. Metta, Sarah ======= 45686 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] dana and sila, to Mike nilovg Hi Mike, op 18-05-2005 05:12 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > This is very important and Nina, your response was inadequate I think (no > offense!). Daana and siila in the senses in which Charles means them are (I > THINK) pa.n.natti, not dhammas. Distinguishing between pa.n.natti and > dhammas is absolutely essential I think, maybe especially in this context. N: Good point Mike. Because of Yahoo trouble (just now past, I was awaiting help from on high, being in such a mess) I could not follow all messages and did not get Charles point. Sorry Charles! I just concentrated on Mike's mail about Kh. Sujin's book. Mike, what do you think yourselves about this point? Concepts is very complicated, but let us compare Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, (T.A. Ch 8, p. 319) There is what is made known: attha-paññatti, and what makes known: naama-pannñatti. attha-paññatti refers to a conventional truth, refers to collectivity, continuity, etc. naama-pannñatti: a designation. There are names that stand for what is real and also names that stand for what is not real. Or concepts of the non-existent based on the existent. Many variations are possible. All this is a rather theoretical approach. I think when it dawns on us what a reality is, a dhamma that has an unalterable characteristic, such as seeing, that is the same in France or China, then we can see that it is different from a name or a conventional idea. Seeing arises and falls away, but seeing is the same for everybody: it experiences visible object. I am not inclined to wonder and think much about the difference between concept and reality. It tends to be so theoretical, but that is my personal inclination. I would like to first understand about characteristics that can be directly experienced, without having to think about them, without having to name them. In this way we can find out the difference between ultimate reality and conventional reality. So, when I read the list of sobhana cetasikas in the Visuddhimagga, I remember that these are not mere names, but that they are real now, at this moment. Lobha is lobha, it cannot be changed into dosa. To come back to daana and siila: I am just paying attention to kusala citta. In what way can these notions help me to understand more about kusala. Ruupa-khandha: it is ruupa, but explained by way of khandha. It arises and falls, there is past, present and future. It can also be explained by way of dhaatu, element. It is devoid of self. Terms are used, but I would like to understand what these terms stand for. In what way can they help me to understand reality now. Nina. 45687 From: nina Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:41am Subject: Feelings, sutta and abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Tep, 45631 From: "Tep Sastri" I think the message that I sent along with the SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta, is that this Buddha's discourse is simple and perfect for practitioners; there is no need for the bhikkhus (and real Buddhists) to know all the details about the Paramattha-dhamma principles... A danger inevitably results when one is too fascinated by the beautiful theories to neglect practicing according to the suttas (Buddha's discourses). Why did our Lord Buddha not talk about the micro Paramattha-dhamma in this SN XXXVI.1 or most other suttas? That was the message I sent. ----------- N: As we see, the sutta is very deep, it contains the four noble Truths and also the Dependent Origination. Three feelings. When feeling is not pleasant, it is painful or indifferent. There can be only one feeling at a time. I would not say it is either sutta or abhidhamma, because each sutta is full of abhidhamma, but people may not see it. I think, in the Buddha's time there were not such dilemmas: sutta or abhidhamma, people understood that the suttas were explanations of realities, the same realities as taught in the Abhidhamma. Moreover, a sutta does not stand alone, we have to read all suttas in order to have more understanding of the Buddha's message. We should not neglect the beginning of Kindred Sayings IV: If we neglect this, some people may think that the Buddha did not teach anattaa. And: the all has to be known. Is this not abhidhamma? In each sutta the Buddha taught abhidhamma, that is: ultimate reality and this is what we have to develop understanding of. How? there has to be correct understanding on the level of pariyatti, understanding of feeling, for example, appearing at this moment. Is it pleasant, painful or indifferent? As Sukin said, that is the seed for correct patipatti. --------- T: ... But such ability of seeing and knowing nama and rupa precisely is the consequence of samatha-vipassana bhavana everyday to develop awareness (sati-sampajanna), not to be gained by reading the books, writing about the Abhidhamma and discussing it everyday. This issue is the most difficult one to get across. -------------- N: Yes, a difficult issue. Important to solve this question. Do insist Tep, if you are not satisfied. We should realize that book reading is not enough. What we learn has to be applied. First of all we have to know the difference when there is one world at a time, that is, the experience of just one reality through one of the six doors, and when there is thinking of concepts, a collection of things, such as a person, a chariot. When I take a hot shower, I may think of hot water (a concept), or, there may be awareness of just heat as it appears through the bodysense, or the experience of heat. There is a difference here. At the same time we know that also sati is a reality, a cetasika, that cannot arise whenever we wish. I am glad about that, it reminds me of the truth of anattaa. How good that we cannot have things for the wishing! ------------ T: How do we get to know that clinging is a conditioned dhamma without an appropriate vipassana-nana? If the detailed Abhidhamma knowledge and devotion without meditation can get anyone to a magga-nana, then I don't have anymore argument: the case is closed! -------------- N: I agree, but I would like to see meditation as mental development that can occur at any given moment when there is the correct pariyatti. The seed for patipatti. ---------- T: I like the "some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma" and agree with it -- as I explained above-- but one should never be obsessed with and clinging to the micro knowledges , otherwise the danger is unavoidable. You are clearly an exception. ------------- N: It is just the word micro knowledges, shall we say: pariyatti? And, as Sukin said, detachment has to be kept in mind all the time. And patience. Not a lazy kind or passive kind of patience, but patience that is kusala, devoid of lobha and dosa. Patience can help us not to cling to a quick result of mental development. I agree, it is dangerous to cling to pariyatti, and also to patipatti. Do insist if you are not satisfied with this answer. Many people take this question very much to heart. Nina. 45688 From: nina Date: Wed May 18, 2005 4:47am Subject: no dosa for rupa-brahmas, Htoo. nilovg Dear Htoo, Htoo wrote: Rupa brahmas also do not have dosa. They do not have dosa through out their lifespan. Regarding lobha, they cleanse 'kaamacchanda'. But they cannot cleanse bhava tanha, which is lobha. ---------- N: Clinging to sense objects conditions dosa. When one does not obtain a pleasant sense object one clings to dosa is bound to arise. Through samatha up to the degree of jhana, sense desire is suppressed. When rupajhana citta produces rebirth in a rupa-brahma plane, there are no conditions for sense desire, nor for dosa. ---------- Htoo: There are 10 akusala cittas that brahmas can have. 2 dosa cittas are excluded as they never have dosa at all. 10 akusala cittas are 2 moha cittas and 8 lobha cittas. --------- N: They still have bhava-tanhaa, they may cling to jhaana and to the result of jhaana, to rebirth. But clinging to sense-objects does not arise for them, since it is suppressed. And thus no dosa either. When they are reborn in a sensuous plane, sense-desire and dosa arise again. The anaagaami has eradicated sense desire and also dosa, since dosa is conditioned by sense desire. Nina. 45689 From: nina Date: Wed May 18, 2005 4:47am Subject: daana and siila nilovg Hi Phil, Phil wrote: our presence is one of the best gifts we can give. Really listening to the person, for example. I find that arising when I'm teaching and find myself slouching (we sit around small tables, conversation style) and thinking about something else - there is sometimes a returning to full presence, an arising of a kind of dana when I find myself tuning back in to the student, co-worker, Naomi etc... --------- N: Yes, teaching, giving knowledge to someone else, even worldly knowledge, is a kind of giving. It is generosity. --------- Ph: Still haven't come through on my intention to donate something to the Dhamma foundation, -------- N: Don't worry. In what way we give depends on the occasion, on many conditions. And, as we discussed, there are many ways of generosity. --------- Ph: We can't direct them but we can feel hopeful because of the Buddha's teaching that wholesomess is to be cultivated and can be cultivated. We just have to be patient, keep listening, keep reflecting without over-reaching for results. -------- N: Reflecting and developing the paramis, all of them. Patience is one of the paramis. This reminds me, yes, the ten can also be classified as six, as B.B. says: how are they synthesized: giving, virtue, patience, energy, meditation and wisdom. It does not matter how they are classified. ------- .... who have been listening to Kh Sujin for decades now, but are still so patient and modest in your expectations. (I assume - who knows what is going on in the other's citta stream? - maybe you're all secretly lusting after nibanna!) ------- N: This reminds me of a message I quickly read this morning in the Internet: was it James? We do not speak enough about nibbana, and consider it sufficiently as the goal. I hope I did not misquote. A good point. James wants to shake us up! Rattling the cage. So long as we do not understand conditioned realities we cannot understand the unconditioned reality. We can only speculate about nibbaana. The Buddha spoke about it as the third noble Truth and the end of defilements. It is beneficial to know that there is a Path leading to it. So, we better tread on this Path. If we think all the time of nibbaana, we dwell on the future that has not come yet. If we pay no attention to what appears at this moment, the goal cannot be reached. And we also need all the paramis as a medicine on our journey. We are like sick people, we are too weak. It is good the Buddha gave us medicines. He is the perfect doctor. James, do insist if this answer does not satisfy you. Nina. 45690 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: no dosa for rupa-brahmas, Htoo. htootintnaing Dear Nina, Here arise very very important issue. I have long been waiting for this opportunity. May I ask you some questions? Please do not answer straight away and take time to answer. My questions are 1.'Are jhaanas required to attain arahatta magga?' 2.'Are jhaanas required to attain anaagaami magga?' I will also reply your following message. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo wrote: > Rupa brahmas also do not have dosa. They do not have dosa through out > their lifespan. Regarding lobha, they cleanse 'kaamacchanda'. But > they > cannot cleanse bhava tanha, which is lobha. ---------- N: Clinging to sense objects conditions dosa. When one does not obtain a pleasant sense object one clings to dosa is bound to arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. This is clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: Through samatha up to the degree of jhana, sense desire is suppressed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo:It is sure that jhaana is devoid of sense desire. As there are still anusaya, it is said that sense desire is suppressed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: When rupajhana citta produces rebirth in a rupa-brahma plane, there are no conditions for sense desire, nor for dosa. ---------- Htoo: This is clear and thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There are 10 akusala cittas that brahmas can have. 2 dosa cittas are > excluded as they never have dosa at all. 10 akusala cittas are 2 moha > cittas and 8 lobha cittas. --------- N: They still have bhava-tanhaa, they may cling to jhaana and to the result of jhaana, to rebirth. But clinging to sense-objects does not arise for them, since it is suppressed. And thus no dosa either. ------------- Htoo: Thanks for your explanation. It is very clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: When they are reborn in a sensuous plane, sense-desire and dosa arise again. The anaagaami has eradicated sense desire and also dosa, since dosa is conditioned by sense desire. Nina. --------------------- Htoo: The most important issue is here. May I re-ask my question above? Are jhaanas required to attain anaagaami magga? I ask this because 'anaagam do not have kaama raaga and dosa' and 'brahmas also do not have kaama raga and dosa even though they have not eradicated as in case of anagams'. So my deduction is that 'anagams must have jhaana before they attain anagami magga. My 2nd reason is that anagams are reborn in 5 of 7 4th jhaana rupa brahma bhuumis. So they must have 4th jhaana when they were just going to attain anagami magga. So after thorough research and consideration and consultation with anyone expert, could youm please answer these 2 following questions? 1. Is 4th jhaana require to attain arahatta magga? 2. Is 4th jhaana required to attain anagami magga? I will be looking forward to happily seeing your answers. My prospected responses from you will be 1. You answer yes to both 2. You answer yes to one and no to another 3. You answer yes to the other first and no to the other way round 4. You answer no to both 5. You answer 'do not know' 6. You answer 'by explanations with examples and evidences' 7. You avoid to answer 8. You forget to answer 9. You refer me to do research by myself 10.There is no response May you be free from suffering. With metta and deep respect, Htoo Naing 45691 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (387) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When asubha kammatthaanas are going to be practised, one has to go to the place where dead bodies are available. There are different forms of dead body. So there are altogether 10 asubha kasina kammatthaanas. These 10 will not be discussed in detail as they have been discussed before and will be further re-discuss in the later part when kammatthaana portions are being approached. The reason for having 10 different objects is to fit the level, degree, form, depth of kaama raaga that thepro-practitioners have. Some like beautiful colour and some like figure. And some like fleshiness or fatness and some like form etc. Before approach to dead bodies, it is advisable to bring walking sticks or any sticks to prevent unnecessary fear not to arise. When the practitioner is a man he should not choose a dead body of a woman. When the practitioner is a woman, she should not take the object of dead body of a man. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45692 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:56am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Hi James - > I know you liked the remarks like that because they also were not > diplomatic and rather blunt. > But Sarah has surprised me by her unshakable self confidence with no > aversion. Other moderators are not like her. I remember not so long > ago that I had to leave the TripleGem because the newly appointed > moderator there banded my message. Sarah and Jon can do the > same to us, but they are not narrow-minded or power hungry. And I > admire them for these qualities. > Sincerely, > Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, I have to learn this quality. According to you, I am one of 'other moderators who are not like Sarah'. :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 45693 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (388) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, What the asubha kammatthaana practitioner first sees as the object of asubha kammatthaana is visual object in front of his or her eyes. But what he or she is developing is just name or pannatti. This initial object is 'dead body of so and so form'. This is initiation of asubha kammatthaana and this object is called parikamma nimitta as it is a preparatory sign of asubha kammatthaana. When the practitioner becomes able to recognise the whole picture in his or her mind and it appears exactly as if it is seen by the eyes, that new object in the mind is called uggaha nimitta or mental image. At a time, when mature, there arise another image and it is called counter image or patibhaaga nimitta. This sign is also a form that is similar to initial object and mental object that it is something like a form of a person. But that appears in the mind as patibhaaga nimitta is free of staining, tethering, bleeding, disintegration etc. When this appears, it is said that the practitioner is said to have the stage of upacaara samadhi or proximate concentration. As this new object, patibhaaga nimitta is free of ugly markers, it is strongly advisable that the practitioners do not have to practise on the dead body of opposite sex. Otherwise, at this stage of patibhaaga nimitta, the attraction may arise and then jhaana will be destroyed. When this new sign arises and there are 5 jhana factors of vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata there is no trace of hindrances of sensuous thinking, aversive thinking, sloth-torpored thinking, spreading-worrying thinking and suspicious thinking. This stage is upacaara samaadhi. When the mind suddenly absorbed into that object and there is complete stillness, then that stage is said to be appanaa samaadhi or appanaa jhaana or 1st ruupa jhaana. As the kammatthaana is asubha, this jhaana is said to be 1st jhaana arises from asubha kammatthaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45694 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:11am Subject: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! htootintnaing Dear Sarah and all, Thanks for allowing chopping up. You wrote: #44125 – the 4 kinds of death or `catu maranuppati'. V.interesting topic and good post. I was unclear on aayukkayena, kammakkhayena etc, so checked CMA p220 `Guide'. Many interesting details and it also mentions the same analogy: "An oil lamp, --snip--like a gust of wind." The Guide adds some extra details and I don't know where they come from. For example, it mentions in regard to the first kind, aayukkayena, expiration of the life-span, that this refers to realms where life-span has a definite limit or in human realm where death in old age is due to natural causes. Then it says: "If the productive kamma is still not exhausted when death takes place through reaching the maximum age, the kammic force can generate another rebirth on the same plane or on some higher plane, as in the case of the devas." Hmmm . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hmmm.. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: In the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha it just mentions `death as a result of the final exhaustion of the life-span as defined for a particular destiny, although the power of kamma still exists, is death due to exhaustion of life-span." More to investigate here.....maybe Dispeller, for anyone Sleepless in Seattle - Connie or Mike?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Any help from Connie? With respect, Htoo Naing 45695 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 1. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Old Sukin: So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise friend'. This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. Certainly we won't be lead to false hopes about achieving sotapatti in a matter of weeks or months or any `time' that we are happy to project into based on the sanna of this `self', :-/ would we? Is it after all realistic, is the path that simple? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha mentioned in mahasatipatthaana sutta that 'let alone 7 years, 6,5,4,3,2,1 year is sufficed. 'Let alone 1 year, 7 months, 6,5,4,3,2,1, half month is sufficed. These are words in mahasatipatthaana sutta. How would you say? Was The Buddha wrong to say these words? Old Sukin: Without the good friend, it is likely that `methods' will be sought after which come with it a promise of result in the future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Read above Paali. The Buddha's words say promising result in the future. You seem not believe in The Buddha teachings. Old Sukin: There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are ideas. I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know whom you are referring to as moderna day Buddhists. But The Buddha said the implication that within a matter of 7 days if one follow what The Buddha instructed he will achieve the fruit of one alternatives of anagami magga or arahatta magga. Old Sukin: And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Never practising leads to never real experience. Old Sukin: But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do you expect the reaction to be? I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! (b) htootintnaing Dear Sarah and interested members, You wrote: #45387- 4 akusala vaci kamma of telling lies etc. It's stressed in the texts that these can be through speech or the body-door, eg by a gesture or the keyboard! You say that divisive speech `may also be musaavaada',`harsh speech is usually untrue words' and unfruitful speech `is also related to musaavaada kamma'. I'm not sure. For example, harsh speech (pharusa vaacaa) has these 3 constituent factors only, accord to Atth.: a)another to be abused, b) angry thought, c) the abuse. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said 'usually untrue words'. When kamma are summerised they come under musaavaada. When they are spread out there are 4 vaci- kamma. Example harsh word or rude word is very very frequently used by 'actors of western films'. I would not write the word here. Sometimes directness conveys the necessary meaning but sometimes directness hurts some certain person who do not have kind heart. When that word appears, is it true or not? Not true. Then this is musaavaada as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: It also says "By `harsh speech' is meant the entirely harsh volition which produces a bodily and vocal effort, stabbing another as with a mortal wond." It then gives the good examples of how a teacher may appear to speak harshly (`these shameless, reckless lads..Turn them out!') but with a gentle heart, while a murderer might appear to speak gently (`let him sleep in comfort') but because the thoughts are harsh, the words are harsh. Anyway, my point was that I think that if there are any lies, it comes under musaavaada. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is my consideration. But in summary all vaci-ducarita come under musaavaada. With respect, Htoo Naing 45697 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread (389) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 20 kammatthaanas or 20 objects of samatha meditation have been discussed in connection with 1st jhaana or 1st material absorption. These 20 objects are 10 kasina objects or 'wholeness' object and 10 asubha or 10 non-beautiful or 10 foul meditational objects. These 20 object when taken by the mind and developed properly, they can lead to 1st jhaana or 1st material absorptive state of mind. There are 2 more objects that can give rise to 1st jhaana or 1st material absorptive state through counter image or counter sign or patibhaaga nimitta. They are kaayagataasati or remembrance on 32 body parts meditation and aanaapaanasati or 'breathing meditation'. These 2 objects of meditation can give rise to 1st jhaana. Aanaapaanasati or breathing meditation can give rise to all 4 ruupa jhaanas or all 4 material absorptive states of mind. But as the current post is to discuss ruupa-kamma of 1st jhaana, other jhaanas will not still be discussed. Kaayagatasati is recollections of memory or remembrances on each and every parts of 32 body parts as described in kaayagataasati sutta. These 32 body parts or 32 kotthaasa can also be learnt in mahaasatipatthaana sutta of Diigha Nikaaya 22. It is true that there are more than 32 body parts. But meditation-wise body parts with the same character of foulness or disgustingness are grouped as one part of 32 body parts. Example is that there are more than 200 bones in a human being but they all are seen as bone and all these bones are just a part or 1 part of 32 body parts or 32 kotthaasa. First the initial object of kaayagatasati is a visual object. These 32 body parts are 1. hair (on head)) 2. body hairs 3. nails 4. teeth 5. skin 6. flesh 7. sinew 8. bone 9. marrow 10.kidneys 11. heart 12. liver 13. membranes 14. spleen 15. ligments 16. intestines 17. mesentry 18. gorge 19. feces 20. brain 21. bile 22. phlegm 23. pus 24. blood 25. sweat 26. solid fat 27. tear 28. liquid fat 29. saliva 30. mucus 31. synovial fluid 32. urine The first 20 are solid and latter 12 are liquid. Through repeated observation, there arise mental image that the copy of visual object can clearly be seen in the mind and that new object is called mental image or uggaha nimitta or a sign in the mind, which is a pannatti. When well calm and there are few hindrances, then another sign is just going to arise. As soon as hindrances are cleared away and the mind is clean then there arises a third sign called patibhaaga nimitta or counter image of the mental image. When there is no hindrances, the samaadhi in that state is called upacaara samadhi or proximate concentration. It is a harald state of mind before the actual absorptive state of mind called jhaana or appanaa samadhi. As there are no hindrances and as there are 5 jhaana factors are working efficiently, the mind is ready to absorb into the object patibhaaga nimitta or counter sign or counter image of the mental image , which again is an identical copy of real image. Once the mind is absorbed the only object is patibhaaga nimitta or counter image and no other objects can be taken as object at all. When the mind emerges from the absorptive state then it takes another object other than patibhaaga nimitta or the counter image of mental image. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45698 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:28am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! to #45413 htootintnaing Dear Sarah and interested members, You wrote: #45413 – you say `whether there are silent or not akusala always has a mental source. So mano-kamma is the worst." It's true that mind-door cittas are always involved, but when we refer to kamma-patha such as killing, it is by way of kaaya or vaci kamma, surely? Humans, insects etc – see U.P. `killing'. It always come back to the cetana..usually more effort and greater intention to kill for a large animal or human...there may also be much planning and thinking about it afterwards. (Killing with wrong view worse than without, Phil.) ---------------- Htoo: Killing with wrong view? Killing is mostly done by one of 2 dosa mula citta. Ditthi or wrong view normally does not invlove in killing until and unless the killing is also done with lobha. How will you say? With respect, Htoo Naing 45699 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! # 45415 htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Regarding metta, you wrote: #45415 – another post on Metta, so I may as well respond here. We can read in the Vism, 1X, 8 onwards about the meaning of `May I be happy...etc'. it explains that: " `just as I want to be happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings too', making himself the example, then desire for other beings' welfare and happiness arises in him. And this method is indicated by the Blessed One's saying: `I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another' (Si,75; Ud 47)." -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Just for a joke. When you and most DSG active members say 'no control' 'no control' 'no self' 'no self', why should The Buddha preach about 'Self'? I will be looking forward to hearing from you, Sukin, Robert K, Ken H,Nina, Ken O, and many others. With respect, Htoo Naing 45700 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread (390) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana can be obtained through the practice of 26 samatha kammatthaana bhavanaa or 26 tranquility cultivational objects or tranquility meditational objects. These 26 objects are 1. 10 kasina objects or 'wholeness' objects 2. 10 asubha objects or 10 foul objects of dead body 3. 1 kaayagataasati object or 32 body parts object 4. 1 aanaapaanasati object or breath-object 5. 4 brahmavihara objects or pure-living objects(metta, karuna etc) ----- 26 objects of meditation or 26 kammatthaanas Among them 10 kasina and 10 asubha have been discussed. And kaayagatasati or meditation on 32 body parts has also been discussed in the previous post. Aanaapaanasati kammatthaana or breathing-meditational object is actually a universal meditational object for all 4 ruupa jhaanas and vipassana kammatthaana object. But unlike vipassana, which always take naama dhamma or ruupa dhamma as its object, aanaapaanasati as a samatha meditation does not take naama or ruupa as its object. Initially the meditator is concentrating on his or her breath and as it is so subtle it is hard to obtain a good concentration. At this stage the object is called parikamma nimitta or preparatory sign and it is just the object that can be sensed by everyone when he or she is breathing through the nose. When a good concentration is obtained, there is not much difficult to perceive all the events at breathing and the mind is well calm. There will not be any other thoughts except that breath or breath-sign. That new sign which appears in the mind is now no more the real object that arises at nose but it is the mental image to the initial object breath. When there are little hindrances or no hindrances there is ready for a third sign to arise in the mind. But it will be no more the mental iamge of the initial object. It changes into a different forms. It may well be like a piece of cloud, smoke, a heap of salt, a pile of sugar, dust, mist, or anything depending the individual's past experience. When this third sign appears in the mind, it is called patibhaaga nimitta or counter image of the mental image or counter sign of the mental mimage. As it is not a paramattha dhamma that 3rd sign does not arise or does not fall away. Instead it seems to persist all the time without interruption. It is stable. It is unshakable. It is not wavering. It is not quivering. It is not shattering. It exists as if it is a solid thing. When the object is stable the mind who takes that object is also stable and does not move. That mind is well calm. As soon as the mind is absorbed into that 3rd object or 3rd sign, there is an unshakable mental state called 1st jhaana or 1st material absorption. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45701 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:42am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 htootintnaing Dear Sarah, You wrote: #45536 – you say `the only thing different is that vipassanaa or satipatthaana is totally different from any form of meditations.' At other times, I think you say that meditation is a translation of bhavana. Of course, vipassana is bhavana (meditation). You go on to say here that many who developed samatha `never learned anatta, which is the end-product-concept of satipatthaana.' Are you sure that you mean anatta is a concept? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Samatha that I wrote was of those who were out of The Buddha teachings. Pure samatha will never know anatta until and unless the samatha meditators are followers of The Buddha or His disciples or they are paccekabuddhas-to-be. Anatta? 1. anatta is not citta 2. anatta is not cetasika 3. anatta is not ruupa 4. anatta is not nibbana But 1. citta is anatta 2. cetasika is anatta 3. ruupa is anatta 4. nibbana is anatta So how do you think anatta is? With respect, Htoo Naing 45702 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (391) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana can be obtained through the practice of 26 samatha kammatthaana bhavanaa or 26 tranquility cultivational objects or tranquility meditational objects. These 26 objects are 1. 10 kasina objects or 'wholeness' objects 2. 10 asubha objects or 10 foul objects of dead body 3. 1 kaayagataasati object or 32 body parts object 4. 1 aanaapaanasati object or breath-object 5. 4 brahmavihara objects or pure-living objects(metta, karuna etc) ----- 26 objects of meditation or 26 kammatthaanas Among them the first 22 objects have been explained in connection with 1st jhaana or 1st material absorptive state of the mind. There are 4 other objects left. They are brahmavihaara or pure-living. These 4 onjects are 1. metta brahmavihaara or 'pure-living with loving-kindness' or 'pure-living with universal-friendliness' 2. karuna brahmavihaara or 'pure-living with compassion' 3. muditaa brahmavihaara or 'pure-living with sympathetic-joy' 4. upekkhaa brahmavihaara or 'pure-living with equanimity'. These 4 brahmavihaara kammatthaana or 'pure-living meditational objects' will be explained in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45703 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread (392) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Pure-living meditational object' or brahmavihaara kammatthaana is also known as 'pure-practice meditational object' or brahmacariya kammatthaana. These meditational methods had long been practised even before our Buddha, The Buddha Gotama. These meditations are methods that lead to pure-living and they make non-attachment to kaama objects. Because of these practice and when 'one who has been practising' is just going to die and he has not released his pure-living practice he will be reborn in brahma bhumi or fine material realm. These pure-living meditational methods are 1. mettaa or loving-kindness or universal-friendliness 2. karunaa or compassion 3. muditaa or sympathetic-joy or loving-appreciation 4. upekkhaa or equanimity or universal-appreciation All these 4 meditational methods can give rise to 1st jhaana. But upekkha brahmavihara is normally not the top priority to practise for those who have not attain any jhaana yet. So, the first three brahmavihara or 3 pure-living meditational methods will be discussed first. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45704 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > You wrote: > > #45536 – you say `the only thing different is that vipassanaa > or > satipatthaana is totally different from any form of meditations.' > At > other > times, I think you say that meditation is a translation of bhavana. Of > course, vipassana is bhavana (meditation). You go on to say here that > many > who developed samatha `never learned anatta, which is the > end-product-concept of satipatthaana.' Are you sure that you mean > anatta > is a concept? --------------------------------- Extra piece in reply to #45536 Sarah wrote: Also in this post you say that `vipassana is based on any of these 40 kammatthaanas or based on naama dhamma or ruupa dhamma...' Pls clarify. -------------------------------------- Htoo: 'is' should have been 'can be' or 'may be'. 10 kasinas. While ongoing, one may see realities just before attain appana samadhi. He is coming to and going out of kasina object. And he may see his mind states that such mind is calm mind, such mind is distracted mind and so on. Even when he attains jhaana with kasina, he may see realities when he comes out of jhaana and while doing scrutinization on mind states. Others also apply the same. Even mahasatipatthana say 1. breathing contemplation 2. 32 body parts contemplation 3. 4 elements contemplation 4. foulness contemplation There are 21 sessions in mahasatipatthana sutta. Session of kaayanupassana alone invlove 14 sessions and among them are many meditations. With respect, Htoo Naing 45705 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! final part Whooo.. htootintnaing Dear Sarah, You wrote: #45572 – you say `bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala kamma......' What does this mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do not do bad things like killing, stealing, telling lies, and misusing of senses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Does it mean no development at all of samatha or satipatthana is possible until all akusala is eradicated or all akusala kamma patha even? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) See above. The output of communication is that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You continue to say `he or she will have to keep basic precepts observed all the time. He or she has to abandon bad mind of any form'. Yet we know that only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and only an arahant has `abandoned bad mind of any form' surely? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: While 'perfect' means '100%' observing may or may not be 100%. Perfectness is the business of proficient one. Learners all have to observe till they do not need to learn any more as they will have perfected there after. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: #? – ok, walking is creeping/butting in here.... You said in a post to Jon that `there is no mention of sitting meditation, walking meditation by The Buddha.' Could you say this a little louder?:). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: THERE IS NO MENTION OF SITTING MEDITATION, WALKING MEDITATION BY THE BUDDHA. :-)) Yes. The Buddha did not say 'sitting meditation' 'walking meditation'. The Buddha just preached how to do 'satipatthaana'. Among many methods, The Buddha did say that 'the typical bhikkhu sits by folding lower part of the body putting straight upper part of the body and put the mind straight forward' 'when going, he knows he goes'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Then you write `The Buddha did preach to contemplate on all events through out the day and night and as long as conscious.' So what are `events' again that should be clearly understood with sati- sampajanna (awareness and clear comprehension)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 1. first breathing is directed as primary object. Because this is quite evident to all breathing-beings. Breathing makes movement. Movements are part of vayo-photthabba-ruupa. Nose-hair may be shaking, sensation of movement of air may be noticed, sensation of tenseness in the chest or abdomen may well be noticed. Any movement is part of vayo-photthabba-rupa. As this ruupa is universal anyone can sense it. As all breathing-beings have breathing and this may help seeing realities, breathing is instructed to be known in detail. 2. one at any time is in a specific posture. No doubt. Would you deny this? The Buddha did not encourage the idea of postures. But the instructions are related to postures. Because seeing of these postures may help seeing of rupa and then naama. You are always always in a specific posture. And that posture is not static and it has to be changed to another one. All these changing processes have to be seen. 3. Apart from 4 major postures, there are many changing movements inside the body like stretching, bending, looking straight, looking elsewhere, holding something etc. The instructions are instruction and they are not to be analysed by paramattha dhamma. Through out these changing movement there are many ruupa happens. These are events. Events are occurrences that arise and fall away. These 1, 2, 3 invlove all the activities of daily life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: #44297 – `Meditate, Ananda, meditate'. You ask about the meaning and whether it refers to `go to a forest, go to the foot of a tree....'. According to the comy, meditate here refers to `develop samatha and vipassana'. Did Ananda spend all his time at the foot of a tree? Why not if this was the best way to become an arahant? Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ananda in his final day of sotapanhood meditated a lot. He walked. He sat. He stood. And finally he lied down. The Buddha did not say 'this is the best way' 'this is the worst way' in mahasatipatthana sutta. But what The Buddha said in mahasatipatthana sutta is 'aranna gato vaa, rukkha mula gato vaa, sunnagaara gato vaa nissidati' aranna = forest, wood gato = having gone vaa = or rukkha = tree mula = root, rukkhamula_foot of tree sunnagaara = unoccupied place or building nissidat = sit With Metta, Htoo Naing 45706 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo, Htoo's old message: The Buddha mentioned in mahasatipatthaana sutta that 'let alone 7 years, 6,5,4,3,2,1 year is sufficed. 'Let alone 1 year, 7 months, 6,5,4,3,2,1, half month is sufficed. These are words in mahasatipatthaana sutta. How would you say? Was The Buddha wrong to say these words? Old Sukin: Without the good friend, it is likely that `methods' will be sought after which come with it a promise of result in the future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Read above Paali. The Buddha's words say promising result in the > future. You seem not believe in The Buddha teachings. Not only does lobha jump at the first sign of such promises, but it > also spins out a series of reasonings to back it up, and this is the > work of wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo; > No. > If one cannot follow what The Buddha instructed he will be following > the wrong way. > Old Sukin: > There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to > understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, > hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can > be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any > clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: These are ideas. Old Sukin: > > I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, > namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many > meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I do not know whom you are referring to as moderna day Buddhists. > > But The Buddha said the implication that within a matter of 7 days if > one follow what The Buddha instructed he will achieve the fruit of > one alternatives of anagami magga or arahatta magga. > Old Sukin: > And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely > these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even > the tilakkhana. But no, it is only concepts that are being observed > and never the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Never practising leads to never real experience. Old Sukin: > The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is > only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it > becomes hard to convince otherwise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Dittha dhamma are in sight. Old Sukin: > Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, > thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at > all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: But 'the bhikkhu pajaanaati'. Old Sukin: > But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. I believe the > experience of the meditator is no different from this, only he by the > power of concentration, has managed to observe them without being > otherwise led by the stories, not counting the story about the > practice itself ;-). And his knowledge of rise and fall allows him to > keep enough distance to watch these experiences more microscopically. > But little does he know that besides them being only `thinking', > wrong view actually influences the quality of the experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Experience and thinking are different. Old Sukin: > He ends up thinking and relating any new thing learned with the > particular practice. In other words he risks developing a distorted > understanding of conditionality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: How distorted when one follow The Buddha's Path? Old Sukin: > When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has > great chance of developing not only the understanding of the > characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of > paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This is totally wrong idea. It is new delusion. It is subgrandiose > delusion. Old Sukin: > Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing, are often > accused of taking the easy road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I would say that 'all those who do not follow what The Buddha > taught but set out their own way of achieving insight without > satipatthaana' are all following 'the easy road'. Old Sukin: > I think most people are willing to go through any hardship if there > is promise of result in the future, be it the treasure hunter, the > man who sleeps on the bed of thorns or the meditator who willingly > bears the knee pain. Wrong view after all, *feels so right*. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If someone is following the path of mahasatipatthana, he will not be > any wrong. Satipatthaana is always right. > Old Sukin: > But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching > realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do you > expect the reaction to be? > I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is > what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the > kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of many > of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't > mind. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread (393) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Metta brahmavihaara' or 'loving-kindness pure-living' is a method of meditation and it can give rise to 1st rupa jhana or 1st material absorption. The typical 1st jhana cittas derived from metta brahmavihara take the object of pannatti. That pannatti is satta-pannatti or idea-of-being. Unlike other meditations that can give rise to 1st jhana, metta brahmavihara and other 2 that is karuna and mudita cannot give rise to patibhaaga nimitta. But the object of all brahmaviharas is just pannatti like all other meditations that can give rise to 1st jhana. Metta is non-attachment. Metta is loving-kindness. Metta is universal friendliness. Metta is universal and it can act on anyone if there are conditions. Metta should not be equated with 'love'. To avoid this metta is talked as 'loving-kindness'. If metta is equated with 'love', then those who do not have enough understanding on metta may believe that 'love' between husband and wife is metta. This is not fully the case. Hasband and wife may develop metta to each other. But this pure metta may change into another 'love', which is lobha and strong attachment. And lobha or greediness is akusala or unwholesome thing. Metta is compared with 'the love of mother to her child'. This is especially true between newborn baby and its mother. From mother side there is no expectation from her baby when she treats anything to her baby. She will clean her baby's filth and any messy things that arisen from it. Still the mother is willing to do all things related to her baby. The baby may urinate directly to her face. Still the mother will smile and treat her baby as her most precious jewel. The baby kicks on her face. The mother smiles. The baby hit on her face. The mother smile. The mother will be very protective to her baby at all cost. Metta is really cool and it is more than that. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45708 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and interested members, Unanswered part of dialogue 2 is here. >Old Sukin: When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has great chance of developing not only the understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is totally wrong idea. It is new delusion. It is subgrandiose delusion. Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread (394) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many different ways of cultivating metta or loving- kindness. Metta sutta says all the details of effects of metta, how to develop metta, how to stay with metta and how to cover the whole world with metta. Metta brahmavihara or 'loving-kindness pure-living' is a kind of mental exertion. It is a mental work. It takes the object beings. As beings are all panatti the object of metta brahmavihara is also pannatti. The typical cittas of 1st jhana derived from metta brahmavihara are just cittas. They all have to ground on hadaya vatthu or heart-base material. They all take the object beings as their object and it is pannatti. As metta is pure thing there have not be any impure things like lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or ignorance, ditthi or wrong- view, maana or conceit, issaa or jealousy, macchariya or stinginess, kukkucca or worry, ahirika or shamelessness, anottappa or fearlessness and uddhacca or upset. As metta is pure and it is a good mental exertion, it has not to be with sloth and torpor. And metta has to be free from any form of suspicion or doubt. Metta is so pure that as soon as impurity comes metta instantaneously disappears. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45710 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:31am Subject: Re: Feelings, sutta and abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I am glad to see you back, active and strong. N: Three feelings. When feeling is not pleasant, it is painful or indifferent. There can be only one feeling at a time. T: One cannot let go of vedana if their drawbacks are not truly seen, e.g. they are impermanent and that there are some that are a bait (aamisa). ---------------------------- N: We should realize that book reading is not enough. What we learn has to be applied. First of all we have to know the difference when there is one world at a time, that is, the experience of just one reality through one of the six doors, and when there is thinking of concepts, a collection of things, such as a person, a chariot. ... ... I would not say it is either sutta or abhidhamma, because each sutta is full of abhidhamma, but people may not see it. I think, in the Buddha's time there were not such dilemmas: sutta or abhidhamma, people understood that the suttas were explanations of realities, the same realities as taught in the Abhidhamma. T: It is evident that your wisdom from years of the suttas and Abhidhamma studies has almost morphed the two into one. So nowadays when you're talking about the Abhidhamma, the basic concepts you use in fact come from the suttas (or the suttas commentaries written by Abhidhamm-oriented authors); and when you are talking about a sutta, the explanation of the Buddha's words is based on the Abhidhamma! But for those who are familiar with the pure Abhidhamma principles only, the two are like disconnected islands. ------------------------------- N: Patience can help us not to cling to a quick result of mental development. I agree, it is dangerous to cling to pariyatti, and also to patipatti. Do insist if you are not satisfied with this answer. Many people take this question very much to heart. T: I am satisfied with "this answer", Nina. Both patience and no-clinging (to pariyatti and/or patipatti) are unquestionably important. Respectfully, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, > > 45631 > From: "Tep Sastri" > > I think the message that I sent along with the SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi > Sutta, is that this Buddha's discourse is simple and perfect for > practitioners; there is no need for the bhikkhus (and real Buddhists) to > know all the details about the Paramattha-dhamma principles... > > A danger inevitably results when one is too fascinated by the beautiful > theories to neglect practicing according to the suttas (Buddha's > discourses). Why did our Lord Buddha not talk about the micro > Paramattha-dhamma in this SN XXXVI.1 or most other suttas? That was > the message I sent. > ----------- > N: As we see, the sutta is very deep, it contains the four noble Truths and > also the Dependent Origination. > Three feelings. When feeling is not pleasant, it is painful or indifferent. 45711 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:38am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > I have to learn this quality. According to you, I am one of 'other > moderators who are not like Sarah'. :-)) > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo - At the time of that incident were your eyes and ears "closed"? With Karuna, Tep ========= 45712 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:42am Subject: Dhamma Thread (395) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, May I be free from enemies. May you be free from enemies. May they be free from enemies. What a good mind it is! There are enemies. Some live inside of the body and some live outside of the body. Some are element of dhamma and some are formation of derivations of elements of dhamma. Who is the enemy that lives inside of ourselves? He is aversion or dosa or hatred. Dosa or aversion has a great power to destroy anything that it meets. Dosa destroys the home where it resides. As soon as dosa arises in us we start to suffer from painful experience. So may I be free from dosa. May you be free from enemies. May you be free from dosa, which will destroy you and your properties of physical and mental. So my wish is that 'you be free from dosa so that you are free from destruction'. May they be free from enemies. May they be free from dosa, which will definitely destroy the peace and tranquility and everything. So my wish is that they are free from dosa and they are free from the effect of dosa and so free from destruction. These are just references. When I am exerting by myself I would exert mentally that 'may I be free from enemies. May I be free from dosa. When there are other people with me when I am doing that mental job, I would say 'may we be free from enemies. May we be free from dosa'. When I say 'you' and 'may you be free from enemies. May you be free from dosa', this may mean 'only you' when there is only a single person reading this message. If there are more than one person reading this message at the same time, then this 'you' will also refer to 'all of you'. When I say 'may they be free from enemies. May they be free from dosa', this include all those who are not involve in this current communication mode of message reading. They in these wishes include all. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45713 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:18am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi James - Thank you for your friendly message that also provided a good feedback for error correction. James: ;-)) Tep, you made those comments with in the past two days! LOL! You talk as if this was years ago and since then you have learned the error of your ways. Tep: So it seemed I might have been a little to quick to jump to the conclusion. Time will tell. James: The offending monk was to be grateful for this criticism and to make corrections to his behavior. ... I welcome anyone, on-list or off, to comment to me on my behavior. That is the only way to learn. Tep: That is a good policy for peaceful co-existence as well. James: And Tep, if you think I am bad now, you would hardly imagine what I was like before you joined! ;-). Tep: I am glad that my timimg was good. :->)) Karuna, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > >And what I was doing is perfectly within the Buddhadhamma. The Sangha, following instructions from the Buddha, would periodically meet and all of the members were supposed to point out any faults in the behavior or attitude of their fellow monks. The offending monk was to be grateful for this criticism and to make corrections to his behavior. (snipped) > > Metta, > James 45714 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:52am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing Dear James and Tep, While one signed up metta, another signed up with karuna, :-). Your dialogue is good to read especially regarding personal policy. Good practice James. Otherwise there will be little chance to learn. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James - > > Thank you for your friendly message that also provided a good > feedback for error correction. > > James: ;-)) Tep, you made those comments with in the past two days! > LOL! You talk as if this was years ago and since then you have learned > the error of your ways. > > Tep: So it seemed I might have been a little to quick to jump to the > conclusion. Time will tell. > > James: The offending monk was to be grateful for this criticism and to > make corrections to his behavior. ... I welcome anyone, on-list or off, to > comment to me on my behavior. That is the only way to learn. > > Tep: That is a good policy for peaceful co-existence as well. > > James: And Tep, if you think I am bad now, you would hardly imagine > what I was like before you joined! ;-). > > Tep: I am glad that my timimg was good. :->)) > > > Karuna, > > > Tep > > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > >And what I was doing is perfectly within the Buddhadhamma. The > Sangha, following instructions from the Buddha, would periodically > meet and all of the members were supposed to point out any faults in > the behavior or attitude of their fellow monks. The offending monk was > to be grateful for this criticism and to make corrections to his behavior. > > > (snipped) > > > > Metta, > > James 45715 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:35am Subject: Re: Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Hi CharleD {Attn: Howard, Sarah, James and Phil} - Your post (#45598) touched on a difficult issue related to Existence. Even Howard, a keen observer of abstract and profound theories, once told me that he wasn't knowledgeable in this area! So please allow me to be more philosophical than usual, and I only have more questions than answers to give. CharleD: And, yes, to be my usual difficult self, I have a theory. I call it the "Multi-dimensional Hypothesis of Existence." It basically states that existence occurs in layers spanning several dimensions (sphere or plane of existence), and each layer/dimension appears as existence in it-self though they effect each other. Tep: Sounds like a correlational self-theory of the universe. CharleD: Dimension "X" ... a strange space/emptiness (with) no-boundaries, (yet) there is activity/movement. Dimension "Alpha" ... something and nothing giving birth to each other. Dimension "1" ... elemental stuff that interact... the Plane of Elemental interactions. Dimension "Q" ... thoughts/mind streams .. the Plane of Mind. Dimension "T" ... people and things ... the Plane of Things. Tep: Where does Nibbana fit in ? Or does it transcend all dimensions? CharleD: From a Buddhist perspective, life in samsara exist in Dimension "T", Plane of Things. Liberation becomes transcending this plane and experiencing your existence in the others. Beyond the Dimension "Q" there can be no I, you, me, or it. However, when the elements of feelings come together in the Plane of Elemental interactions, the effects can be experienced in the Plane of Mind, and thus in the Plane of Things. Tep: By saying "liberation becomes transcending this plane and experiencing your existence in the others", you are not clear about what is liberated and what happens after that. So the specification that we may "experience" our "existence" elsewhere is vague at best. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Tep, .... > (snipped) > > I know this is a little off but I am having fun. > > CharlesD 45716 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: Feelings, sutta and abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Oh, I forgot to say one more thing in the last message (#45715). T:> How do we get to know that clinging is a conditioned dhamma >without an appropriate vipassana-nana? If the detailed Abhidhamma >knowledge and devotion without meditation can get anyone to a >magga-nana, then I don't have anymore argument: > the case is closed! -------------- N: I agree, but I would like to see meditation as mental development that can occur at any given moment when there is the correct pariyatti. The seed for patipatti. ---------- T: More importantly, to be too concerned with either pariyatti or patipatti is equally wrong. We must have both in order to arrive at pativedha Nowadays I have heard people claiming pativedha (e.g. achieving the present-moment satipatthana and right view without the patipatti as explained in the suttas). Those who try to caution them that patipatti is also important, are then accused of focusing too much on patipatti to forget pariyatti. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, > > 45631 > From: "Tep Sastri" > 45717 From: nina Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:16pm Subject: FW:Identity and language, on Pali list, by Ven. Dhammanando nilovg Dear friends, Ven. Dhammanando kindly gave permission to frwd his mail to dsg. It is a correspondance with Bhante Sujata. Nina. ---------- From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:52pm Subject: Re: Identity and language dhammanando_... Bhante, > This issue has been referred to in passing a few times on > this discussion, but I feel it is time to confront it more > directly. May I suggest that we try to develop a terminology > to talk about these events of the far past that is: > > 1. Neutral (i.e. non-emotive) > 2. Unambiguous > 3. Context-specific May I offer an alternative suggestion? -- That as this is a Pali list we simply follow the nomenclature used in Pali sources like the Kathaavatthu Atthakathaa, and the Va.msa texts. "Theravaadin" will then be used just as the Pali Buddhist tradition uses it: to denote the keepers of the flame of the Saddhamma through all the Indian and Sri Lankan sangaayanaas through to the establishment of the Mahaavihaara, through to the present-day living traditions of Sri Lanka and SE Asia. There will then be no need for concocting novelties like "Cuu.lasanghika" -- a name by which the Theravaada has never been known. This is not to deny that there are many other views of Indian sectarian Buddhist history from non-Pali non-Theravaadin sources, but those interested in these can always consult the surveys of Msgr. Lamotte, Nalinaksha Dutt, Hirakawa Akira etc. yaa mahaakassapaadiihi, mahaatherehi aadito kataa saddhamma sa.mgiiti, theriyaa'ti pavuccati eko'va theravaado so, aadivassasate ahu a~n~naacariyavaadaatu, tato ora.m ajaayisu.m That rehearsal of the Saddhamma arranged at the beginning by the great theras such as Mahaakassapa, is called the Theravaada, for the first hundred years it was undivided. But later arose other aacariyavaadas. tehi sa.mgiitikaarehi, therehi dutiyehi te niggahitaa paapabhikkhuu, sabbe dasasahassakaa aka.msaa'cariyavaada.m te, mahaasa.mgiitinaamakaa The evil monks, ten thousand in all, who were censured by the theras who held the Second Council, established the school of doctrine named the Mahaasa.mgiiti (Greater Recital or Assembly). tato gokulikaa jaataa, ekabbohaarikaapi ca From that arose the Gokulikas and the Ekabbohaarikas gokulikehi pa.n.natti-vaadaa baahulikaapi ca cetiyavaadaa tesveva, samataasa`nghikaa cha te From the Gokulikas arose the Pa.n.nattivaada and the Baahulikas; from these arose the Cetiyavaada. Thus there are six schools designated Mahaasanghika. punaapi theravaadehi, mahi.msaasakabhikkhavo vajjiiputtakabhikkhuu ca, duve jaataa ime khalu And then two more arose from among the followers of the Theravaada: the Mahi.msaasaka and the Vajjiputtaka bhikkhus. jaataa'tha dhammuttariyaa, bhadrayaanikabhikkhavo channaagaaraa sammitiyaa, vajjiiputtiyabhikkhuuti Then arose the Dhammuttariyaas, the Bhadrayaanika monks, the Channaagaarikas, the Sammitiyas, and the Vajjiiputtiya monks. mahi.msaasakabhikkhuuhi, bhikkhuu sabbattha vaadino dhammaguttiyabhikkhuu ca, jaataa khalu ime duve From the Mahi.msaasaka monks arose these two: the Sabbatthivaadins and the Dhammaguttiya monks. jaataa sabbatthivaadiihi, kassapiyaa tato pana jaataa sa`nkantikaa bhikkhuu, suttavaadaa tato pana From the Sabbatthivaadins arose the Kassapiyas, then from these arose the Sankantika monks, and from these the Suttavaadins. theravaadena saha te, honti dvaadasi'mepi ca pubbe vuttachavaadaa ca, iti a.t.thaarasaa khilaa These make twelve, together with the Theravaada; to these are added the six schools named before, thus making eighteen. sattarasaapi dutiye, jaataa vasassate iti a~n~naacariyavaadaa tu, tato oramajaayisu.m Thus in the second century arose seventeen schools, and the others arose afterwards. hemataa raajagiriyaa, tathaa siddhatthikaapi ca pubbaseliyabhikkhuu ca, tathaa aparaseliyaa The Hemavata and the Raajagiriyaa, and likewise the Siddhatthaka, the Pubbaseliya monks and the Aparaseliyas, vaajiriyaa cha etehi, jambudiipamhi bhinnakaa dhammaruci ca saagaliyaa, la.mkaadiipamhi bhinnakaa and the Vajiriyas: these six broke away in Jambudiipa. The Dhammaruci and the Saagaliyas broke away on the Island of Lankaa. aacariyakulavaadakathaa ni.t.thitaa Concluded is the the Story of the Aacariya Schools (Mahaava.msa V. 1-12) Best wishes, Dhammanando 45718 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:20pm Subject: Re: Might I also add lone_renunciant Tep wrote: > My Question > ------------------- > > What is the most important meditation experience you have had that > may be used to help people with good conceptual understandings to > grasp how "reality works"? I suppose it would be the applying of some concepts of the dharma I learned in a meditation manual to my practise. In the book, one was instructed to use meditate to 'fine-tune' one's own sensory apparatus. To do this, we would focus on an object of meditation, such as the breath, and be aware of any stimuli from the five sense doors or mind, as it really is. That means, when there is some stimuli, we take our mind off the breath for a few moments and experience that stimuli looking at it for the three characteristics that are common to all conditioned realities: their selflessness, dissatisfactoriness, and impermanence. This is observing the phenomenon with bare attention. You hear a dog, there is no conceptualizing 'dog' or any following mental story-line or emotions. Only patterns of matter and energy making an impression on your ear-sense. Practising like this, one can realize with direct vision that phenomenon are empty, are ever-changing, and in continuous flux. Personally, for me, this meant meditating on my back porch. I can remember the most vivid experience I had with this. While meditating, an animal came to the ground in front of the porch and looked at me, as I looked back at him. It was pure emptiness and bare phenomenon. He may have sensed some fear, I guess we sort of looked at what to make of each other for a moment, then it departed. That would be my most vivid experience in seeing reality as it is. One major point. The book said that these characteristics of reality are to be observed as they are, to be seen by themselves, so we do not have to take it on faith. Regards, A.L. 45719 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:31pm Subject: Re: Might I also add lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi AndrewL, I'm not strong enough so I > need a place with agreeable objects to help in my practice. I would > say learning to be objective and really able to look or analyze > yourself is the key. Ultimately change all the faulty behaviors > that are not fitting of an ariya and we'll be one. > > - kel Hi, kel. Very astute post. Something to think about. We can see that the Vinaya is intended to help monks live a simple, contented life, to not be overwhelmed by, but only to observe, one's desire, fear, and aversion. Trying to do this in daily life is possible also. You may be right that if we align our actions with those of the noble ones, it could help us get there sooner. After all, wasn't the code of discipline intended to foster good progress on the path, keeping the sangha from going off track? Combine that with any fear you do have about being reborn in the lower realms, the level of which varies person to person, and maybe we have a 'better' vehicle to attain our goal. When I was first practising seriously, I would read talk.religion.buddhism on Usenet, and one suggestion that really struck me was a suggestion to only use the computer a half hour a day. This was when I was doing breathing and delivering wind, and therefore vitality, to the stomach and limbs, and having my initial experiences encountering the texts. Perhaps we can all aspire to observe some of the rules of the Vinaya, and keep our practise in mind, not wandering from one thing to another, and feel stronger about ourselves and our practise. Regards, A.L. 45720 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:06pm Subject: Re: Might I also add - w/ a question for Sarah lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Hi, Ken > Hi Andrew L, > > All of us, nearly all the time, think, speak and act without regard > for the Dhamma. That is because we are worldlings, and that is what > worldlings do. (See the Mulapariyaya Sutta.) You only go on to imply that when we do act with the Dhamma in mind, positive results may ensue. I'm afraid I've gotten myself so concerned about "getting" the Dhamma to me, that I am not living with regard to it, in other words, its contents don't have the influence on my life that I should. As the Buddha would term it, I do not have a life 'in tune' with the Dhamma. Now you mention discipline. As you may or may not know, I have had a number of pyschiatric hospitalizations since I began my practise about two years ago. Just yesterday, after all that's happened, my discipline appeared to me. Now this all happened as I was playing a flash game, after talking to someone on AOL instant messenger. Suddenly my whole screen and keyboard seemed to be with the fact that I 'have' discipline. Reminders of years ago when I was disciplined and virtuous, and a phrase in the Sigalaka Sutta, DN 31, where it is said one who has these traits is amply prepared for the next world. Well, I'd been caught up in other things, worldly things, and suddenly here was discipline. My discipline, the discipline, back. So now I gather having to do something else to see this discipline was either part of my illness (a mental disorder of some sort or another), or if there is just displacement at some level in my life. Anyhow, I wasn't sure how to handle myself. I've done what I could with the doctrine and discipline and sort of leveled out. I guess I should probably take sila more seriously, including guarding the sense doors, if I am to have this discipline return. Maybe I can just act more disciplined in whatever I do, I'm not really sure. Anyhow, I think this is a good thing for me, as when I think of the Buddha talk of the "run of the mill ordinary person, who has no regard for true men, and is not skilled or disciplined in their Dhamma," I can know it's not me. So I guess reading some scripture, lightly, and trying to understand it, would be good, towards working with more skill. And keeping in mind the discipline aspect of the Dhamma that I do know, and not to transgress it. And I don't think I'm terribly special for having this discipline, but fortunate, to have encountered it, and now having to make use of it, even as a duty. > -------------------------------------------------- > AL: > So I like to keep it simple, as I bought a small volume by > Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Noble > Eightfold Path, with books from its supplemental reading being well > under $10 each. Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of > myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, > a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in > the states of deprivation. Certainly, a balanced perspective on this > would be healthy and good reason to learn and practise well, but I do > think I maintain an unhealthy fear of death and the process of dying > because I think it will lead to bad things. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > In ordinary sensible thinking, it is helpful to know our own > strengths and weaknesses. However, in the Buddha's teaching, we have > to know what strengths and weaknesses ultimately are. Ultimately, > they are paramattha dhammas - fleeting phenomena, which come and go > before the thinking mind can possibly catch hold of them. So maybe we can beat it to the punch and try to live strength before weakness comes? Seems feasible to me, if one were set on doing it. I'm just saying here my motivation is a lot of fear. Which is unhealthy I think. > > ------------------------------- > AL: > I must say, frustration is an understatement when I try to > jibe with the people in this group. > -------------------------------- > > :-) Ultimately, frustration is the paramattha dhamma, dosa. We > never know exactly when it is present or not present. Nor do we > have any control over it. If there are conditions for experiencing > dosa with attachment or conceit or wrong view, then that will > happen. If there are conditions for simply knowing that dosa is a > conditioned dhamma, then that will happen. We can talk all we like > about "I have frustration" or "I will concentrate on frustration > with detachment," but those thoughts are mere concepts and not what > the Buddha taught at all. Right but just compare this picture to one who is meditating and progressing with ease, and you see the point I'm trying to make. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > AL: > My whole world has revolved around sitting > meditation for years now, and all the fruitful results I have > acheived with it. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Fine; if it does you good then do it. But please don't have the > wrong view, "The Buddha taught control over ultimate realities." But the path is to be walked and developed, is it not? > > ------------------- > AL: > It seems chancy that it was only recommended for monks of > high acheivement, > -------------------- > > You have misunderstood what Sarah was saying. No one - monk or > otherwise - has control over mindfulness. The sitting meditation > referred to in the suttas is about jhana absorption in which > consciousness returns over and over again to the same object. For > that to happen, there has to be freedom from distractions, and until > there is complete mastery of the jhanas, freedom from distractions > requires a rock-steady sitting posture in a quiet, remote locality. This was not my understanding of how Sarah meant it. Maybe she can clear this up for us so that we can discuss it further. > ------------------------ > AL: > as I and even some popular artists in the media I > know of have definitely had a three-phase experience with it. Not > being sure what I'm doing, though, had led me astray. In hindsight, > sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more > clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' That is, when > it's going for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). > I've had results that I'm reluctant to talk about in this post > because it was profound compared to every day experience, or > recognizing a phenomenon here or there. > ------------------------ > > Profound it may have been, but recognising a phenomenon is > infinitely more profound. That is, after all, what the Buddha > taught. :-) > This just goes along with the last para, what I mean is that my practise has been about intention or at least seems so a lot of the time. I'm afraid I have to leave for weekly services at the local Vihara now, so I can not answer this last point in much detail, but please, address it if you see fit. Regards, A.L. > Ken H 45721 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 18, 2005 11:24am Subject: Away upasaka_howard Hi, all - I'll be away on a car trip to Chicago tomorrow through Tuesday night. I may have some internet usage there, but I won't be online much. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45722 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions buddhistmedi... Hi Andrew - Thank you for the reply. A: > . > To do this, we would focus on an object of meditation, such as the > breath, and be aware of any stimuli from the five sense doors or mind, > as it really is. That means, when there is some stimuli, we take our > mind off the breath for a few moments and experience that stimuli > looking at it for the three characteristics that are common to all > conditioned realities: their selflessness, dissatisfactoriness, and > impermanence. This is observing the phenomenon with bare attention. T: Besides the breath, what else can be used to condition mindfulness to stay in front of the body (or within the body)? What are the restrictions (or limitations) of your method? A: > One major point. The book said that these characteristics of reality > are to be observed as they are, to be seen by themselves, so we do not have to take it on faith. > T: How do you "observe" the characteristics of a reality without thinking? Because if you recite the lines from your book then you're not seeing the "characteristics of reality" the way they really are. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Tep wrote: > > > > What is the most important meditation experience you have had that may be used to help people with good conceptual understandings to grasp how "reality works"? > (snipped) > You hear a dog, there is no conceptualizing 'dog' or any following > mental story-line or emotions. Only patterns of matter and energy > making an impression on your ear-sense. Practising like this, one can realize with direct vision that phenomenon are empty, are > ever-changing, and in continuous flux. > (snipped) > Regards, > A.L. 45723 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Desirable object - not important? philofillet Hi Nina and all Nina, I'd like to ask for some brief feedback on a point I found in an old post. You wrote "we often don't know if an object is desirable or not - and why should we? It is not important - it doesn not lead to detachment.." My questions: 1) "We often don't know" because it is too fast, the vipaka is already gone and there is only mental feeling that is likely to be object of awareness? (I'm referring here to a visual object, say, rather than body sense object) 2) Isn't "often don't know" more like "almost never know?" 3) "not important - it doesn't lead to detachment" for the above reason - that it is too fast for worldlings to be likely to insight - and it is therefore awareness of mental feeling that is likely to be the object that can be insighted in a way that can condition detachment? 4)Are there some situations in which awarness of an object as desirable can condition gratitude to the Buddha or other wholesome reflections? The other day I was walking by the river and came across a small jizo statue. (Buddhist guardian of children) Isn't that a desirable object with a certain intrinsic value that can be appreciated? Thanks in advance Nina. Metta, Phil p.s I have sopme questions to ask about piti in the Cetasika corner - maybe tonight. 45724 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Re: Might I also add philofillet Hi Andrew, Kel, Charles and all A.L > You may be right that if we align our actions with those of > the noble >ones, it could help us get there sooner These words reminded me of my discussion with Charles about noble ones vs. worldlings. I would say- predictably - that intentionally aligning ourselves with the noble ones is misguided, but becoming aware of moments in which we are aligned due to conditions and appreciating these rare moments will condition further moments of this aligning. How grateful we can be for even a few moments a day in which our response to sensory objects resembles to a modest degree the response of the noble ones! Yes, that's a helpful word, "aligning" - I used "pale imitation" the other day, but imitation sounds too intentional to me. Others would be comfortable with "imitation" - and that's fine. If there is right understanding, imitation may be possible. Big if. Metta, Phil p.s just in passing, Andrew, I'll add my voice to the others that have expressed hope that you will hang around. Your posts always encourage me to consider being more ambitious re dhamma. 45725 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:56pm Subject: The Cosmologist lbidd2 Hi Christine and all, SN XII,48, "The Cosmologist" "At Saavatthi. Then a brahmin who was a cosmologist approached the Blessed One ... and said to him: "How is it, Master Gotama: does all exist?" "'All exists': this, brahmin, is the oldest cosmology." "Then, Master Gotama, does all not exist?" "'All does not exist': this, brahmin, is the second cosmology." "How is it, Master Gotama: is all a unity?" "'All is a unity': this, brahmin, is the third cosmology." "'Then, Master Gotama, is all a plurality?" "'All is a plurality;: this, brahmin, is the fourth cosmology. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathaagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle..." When this was said, that brahmin said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! ... from today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life." Larry: I looked at the commentary to this and several similar suttas and this is what I came up with: "All exists" and "unity" are code or idiomatic for soul theories (eternalism). "All does not exist" and "plurality" are code for scientific realism (annhilationism). The middle way refutes these two in two ways. Seeing dependent arising, scientific realism doesn't occur. Seeing dependent cessation (dependent arising in reverse), soul theories, including self view, don't occur. Dependent arising refutes scientific realism by the dependent relationship between condition and conditioned and by its cyclical nature. Scientific realism isn't cyclical and its notion of cause and effect is linear and primitive. Dependent cessation refutes soul theories in that phenomena cease when their conditions cease. Self view is dependent on desire. With the cessation of desire there is the cessation of self view. Larry 45726 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 11:16pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 198 - Enthusiasm/piiti (p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] There are many different kinds of píti as it accompanies different types of citta. The píti which accompanies lobha-múla-citta is entirely different from the píti which accompanies kusala citta. The píti which accompanies jhånacitta is again very different. As we have seen, the “pervading happiness”, the fifth kind of píti which is of the highest degree, is the “root of absorption”. Píti which is an enlightenment factor and which develops through mindfulness of nåma and rúpa is different again from all other kinds. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45727 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 198 - Enthusiasm/piiti (p) htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] There are many different kinds of píti as it accompanies different types of citta. The píti which accompanies lobha-múla-citta is entirely different from the píti which accompanies kusala citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah (and Nina), I do not think 'entirely different'. As it is piti cetasika, they (lobha-mula cittas and kusala cittas) share a single characteristic of piti. ;-) Just a different view? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's note continued: The píti which accompanies jhånacitta is again very different. As we have seen, the "pervading happiness", the fifth kind of píti which is of the highest degree, is the "root of absorption". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I seem to agree. But there is the characteristic pertinent to piti of all of kusala, akusala, and kiriya cittas. The difference is 'object', 'associated dhamma', 'supporting conditions'. If earlier piti.s are supported by later piti.s later piti.s seem to be stronger. But the molecular weight of Hydrogen is the same anywhere in this universe. Likewise 'when piti is taken as an object and contemplated on it, it will become obvious that it is just a dhamma and it has its own characteristic and implications. The weightage difference is the difference in object, associated dhamma, and supporting conditions. This is my thoughts. Maybe wrong. Or maybe logical. I reply this because there is the statement 'Questions, comments, different views welcome ;-)' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's note continued: Píti which is an enlightenment factor and which develops through mindfulness of nåma and rúpa is different again from all other kinds. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Again this difference is because of differences in object, associated dhammas, and supporting conditions. Even though piti is nama dhamma, as sati-sambojjhanga is quite close to magga earlier piti just before magga serve as purejaata paccaya or prenascenct condition. This is my opinion. Prenascent condition is supported by ruupa only and it supports later naama dhamma. Example prenascent condition is sadda-ruupa serving as sadda-arammana or sound-object. It has a lifespan of 17 citta-kkhanas. Sadda-rupa serves as gocara ruupa or object ruupa. As soon as it arises, sota- vinnana does not still arise. The 1st vithi citta is panca-dvara- avajjana-citta or 5-sense-door-adverting-consciousness. Even this citta arises at the earliest when sadda ruppa has already been 4 citta-kkhanas old. After panca-dvara-avajjjana citta is sotavinnana citta. Sadda or sound arises earlier and serves as prenascent condition to sota-vinnana citta or ear-consciousness. So only 'ruupa' can serve as purejaata paccaya or prenascent condition. But I said that earlier piti.s may serve as prenascent condition so that later piti.s become stronger to that level of sati-sambojjhanga. But when real dhamma is examined, sati is just sati and it has its character both in kusala and akusala. I think the difference is object, associated dhammas, and supporting conditions. I will be looking forward to hearing from both Sarah and Nina. Sukin and Robert K are also welcome. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45728 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 3:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread (396) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are enemies outside of us. The attacks through the agents of weapon of any kind, the attacks through the agents of fire of any kinds including radiation, nuclear energy etc., the attacks through the agents of poison of any kind, and the attacks through the agents of animals of any kind are external enemies. May I be free from these attacks. May I be free from attacks with weapon. Here weapon include any outside agents like sticks, knives, guns, thorns, boiling water, boiling oil etc and also include body parts like leg, feet, fists, elbows, heels etc etc. May I be free from attackes with fire. Naked fire, flames, burning materials of any kind, radiation, nuclear etc etc be free and away from me. May I be free from attacks of poison of any kind whatever they are attacks by someone else or accidental happenings. May I be free from attacks with animals of any kind. Animals may attack by their own rights or they may attack through someone else wish. May I be free from such attacks by animals like snakes, dogs, foxes, wolves, tigers, lions etc etc. May you all be free from attacks of all such things. May they be free from attacks of all such things. May you be free from external enemies. May they be free from external enemies. May I be free from attacks of external enemies. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45729 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 4:07am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) philofillet Hello Htoo and all >> Metta should not be equated with 'love'. To avoid this metta is >talked >as 'loving-kindness'. When I saw this I thought of the Dhammapada and the poor translation that is sometimes used "hatred never ceases by hatred, by love alone does it cease." Better translations use "non-hatred" or "non-hostility" Is it worthwhile to consider the difference between metta and adosa (non-aversion)? In that Dhammapada verse, is the original Pali adosa? Thanks in advance for your feedback Metta, Phiil 45730 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 4:29am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) htootintnaing Dear Phil, Metta and adosa have similarities and differences. You wrote: Hello Htoo and all [Htoo's old post]>Metta should not be equated with 'love'. To avoid this metta is talked as 'loving-kindness'. Phil: When I saw this I thought of the Dhammapada and the poor translation that is sometimes used "hatred never ceases by hatred, by love alone does it cease." Better translations use "non-hatred" or "non- hostility" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhammapada is talking about general hatred and general love. And it is not talking cetasikas adosa. So it is right in its own right. Hatred never ceases by hatred. Examples are 'They treated me bad like this. And I will revenge'. When revenge, other party will behave the same and there will be vicious cycle. So hatred never cease by hatred. So Dhammapada is right and translation, I think, is also right. 'By love alone does it cease'. This is also true. But what I said was dhamma-elemental level. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Is it worthwhile to consider the difference between metta and adosa (non-aversion)? In that Dhammapada verse, is the original Pali adosa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhammapada which version? I am not good at references. I may be searching for Pali in that Dhammapada verse. 'Is it worthwhile to consider the difference between metta and adosa'? Metta is not talked as a cetasika. Adosa is refered to as a cetasika. Adosa arises with each and every 'sobhana citta' or 'beautiful consciousness'. Beautiful consciousness are 1. 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas 2. 5 rupakusala cittas, 5 rupavipaka cittas, 5 rupakiriya cittas 3. 4 arupakusala cittas, 4 arupavipaka cittas, 4 arupakiriya cittas 4. 4 lokuttara kusala cittas, 4 lokuttara vipaka cittas Adosa is there in all of these consciousness. But there is not always metta in many of these consciousness. Metta only arise when one contemplates on 'beings' to be filled with goodness and to be freed from badness. So there does have difference between metta and adosa. But metta is adosa while not all adosas are metta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Thanks in advance for your feedback Metta, Phiil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are welcome. I will be responding as long as I have access to the forum. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45731 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:09pm Subject: The Rhinocero's Horns 2! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Twin Truths won by keen Dual Consideration: The blessed Buddha once said: Friends, the first consideration is: Whatever Misery arises, this Misery is caused by Acquisition! Another consequent consideration is: Stopping all Acquisition of Substrate, ends all arising of Misery! Taking up many acquisitions, clinging to possessions & thereby accumulating fuel for renewed becoming, the fool comes to misery ever again & again! Letting go, renouncing, & leaving all behind, the wise goes scot free at ease! Considering these twin truths cautiously, resolutely & enthusiastically, one may either enter the state of Nibbana right here & now in this very life, or if there is remaining traces of clinging left, the state of non-return... Those who neglect understanding Clinging, origin of Clinging, End of Clinging, and how Clinging is completely & irreversibly eliminated, are incapable of release by understanding, are incapable of mental release, are incapable of direct knowledge, and are thereby incapable of making an end... They repeat birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death ever again & again... While those who undertake understanding of Clinging, Origin, End & Way, are indeed capable of mental release by understanding, direct knowledge, and thus capable of making an end... They are headed towards the deathless! Source: The Bundle of Threads. The Sutta-Nipata 724-765 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=201818 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=131548 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403082 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133036 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45732 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:01am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) philofillet Hi Htoo Thanks for your speedy reply > Dhammapada which version? I am not good at references. I may be > searching for Pali in that Dhammapada verse. It is in the first book (chapter?) of Dhammapada, "The pairs." The two translations available at access to insight use "non-hatred" and "non-hostility" but we sometimes come across translations which use "love", which always seem to me to suit western taste. I am more comfortable with non-hatred, because as you say adosa arises together with all sobhanna cetasikas. Sometimes it seems to me that right understanding rising together with adosa is enough to let go of a feeling of ill-will. For example, if we understand that the person is doing what he's doing due to conditions, that the person is just a concept, a vehicle for conditioned nama and rupa - even if we understand that in a shallow way I find it is often enough to let feelings of hostility drop. It doesn't seem to me that there is always metta arising at these times - though I don't know how to recognize metta for sure. Not to worry about looking up the Pali, Htoo. There is a version online with Pali and English together. I will try to find it. Thanks for your feedback re metta/adosa. I might have some more questions about it later. Metta, Phil 45733 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:12am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) philofillet Hello again Htoo. > Not to worry about looking up the Pali, Htoo. There is a version > online with Pali and English together. I will try to find it. Here is what I found: Na hi verena verani sammantidha kudacanam averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.1 Verse 5: Hatred is, indeed, never appeased by hatred in this world. It is appeased only by loving-kindness. This is an ancient law. 1. esa dhammo sanantano: This is the same as "poranako dhammo," the doctrine followed by the Budhha and his disciples. The exhortation is not to return hatred for hatred but to conquer it by loving- kindness (absence of hatred). (end quote) Metta, Phil 45734 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, [S=> is present Sukin's response] =============================== Old Htoo: > > These are words in mahasatipatthaana sutta. > > How would you say? Was The Buddha wrong to say these words? > > First we have to determine what Satipatthana is, and here we both > agree that it is the sati and panna with a paramattha dhamma as > object. And do you agree that *this* then is the practice and not > when there is concept as object? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Satipatthana are kaayaanupassana or contemplation on the body, > vedanaanupassana or contemplation on feeling, cittaanupassanaa or > contemplation on the mind, dhammaanupassanaa or contemplation on the > dhamma that arise. S=> What is `contemplation' and what is `body', `feeling', `mind' and `dhamma'? Are there ever concepts as object of satipatthana? ============================== > Sukin: > Second, the above reference to different spans of time does suggest > that some might take 7(or 70 or more) years and some might take 1 > day (or 7 or fewer minutes), doesn't it? So why the difference? > Accumulated sati, panna and other parami, no? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha's path is valid, reproducible, right at any time. S=> If you mean the Buddha's path as in the development of sati and panna, then wouldn't you agree that when it is not satipatthana [or at least understanding intellectually what this is], then the path is not being reproduced? And can any `self' reproduce this path? When the path was reproduced for Sariputta and when Htoo intends to `do' satipatthana, are these two the same path? Or are you thinking of conventional activity again and equating that with the path being reproduced? ================================== Htoo: > These are The Buddha words that when one follows hese 4 contemplation for > 7 years, ---- 7 days, he will attain one of 2 fruit of arahatta magga > or anagami magga. This is reproducible path. If you do not believe do > a research and do statistical analysis. 7 years to 7 days are within > Gausian bell. S=> What is Gausian bell, and what is the significance of this? What is it that I don't believe and research into what are you talking about? ================================ Htoo: > But for those with mandha panna, it may take long. > But for those with tikkha panna, it may take short. > > Every liberated beings just passed through satipatthaana. Kondanna, > Santati, pataacaaraa etc are examples. S=> Has anyone suggested otherwise? But I guess the problem is that you are equating satipatthana with the `practice' as taught by various teachers of meditation and I am taking it to be a momentary arising of sati and panna, not within anyone's control and unrelated to any idea about time, place or activity. So we keep stating our view point more like talking to ourselves than to the other. ;-) ============================= > Sukin: > I think when sati and panna become bala, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Start to regurgitate. S=> This is one instance and I can understand why for example, Tep feels that Sarah sounds like a broken record. ;-) So let us discuss this so that we don't miss the other's viewpoint. I start with the question: Do you agree that there are different level of accumulated sati and panna? Do you agree that if there were not the right accumulations, then no matter what, the Buddha's teachings will not be understood, less the path be walked upon? ============================ > Sukin: > then there is no question that vipassana can be reached through the > practice of satipatthana, and this may take as Sutta say, 7 years or > 7 days. And the audiences of the Satipatthana Sutta were indeed very > ripe. Are we of this same level? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha did not discriminate regarding Dhamma. Satipatthana is > dhamma. Satipatthaana is for all level of beings whether they are not > perfected or not perfected. S=> I am reading as I go along, so now I got the answer I am looking for. You are saying that the Buddha did not discriminate between the levels of wisdom and lack of, between beings? And now I recall a remark to my last post on `accumulations'. You seemed to question the importance of this, am I correct? If so, then we can discuss this in a separate post? ============================ Htoo: > Otherwise satipatthaana will not say > > 'when pleasurable feeling in connection with sensuous things arises > he knows it arises'. > > Did the ripe one have sexual desire, sensuous desire? This indicate > that satipatthaana is for all level of beings. S=> The ripe can have sexual desire, why not?!! Only the Anagami doesn't. But one thing we need to be clear first. The Satipatthana Sutta being addressed to the so called `ripe', it does not mean that it is not meant for the `unripe'. In fact it is the contents of this Sutta that make it clear to us what the Practice is all about. We know in other words, the path treaded by the ariyans which we may not have understood from reading most other Suttas. But this Sutta is a "description" of the path and this is about `understanding' and not `doing'. One cannot make sati arise by `intention' to `follow the Buddha's teachings'. Only panna can come to know really what the Buddhadhamma is all about and it is only panna which will "practice". Re: the relationship between pariyatti and patipatti. My contention is that when a certain section of the unripe hears the instruction, he misunderstands it. Not having the understanding about the uncontrollability of dhammas, he interprets the sutta as things to `do'. The ripe did not have such a misunderstanding, instead by the power of the accumulated panna, attention to paramattha dhammas arose. The unripe's attention, goes instead to "concepts". If this is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, then these concepts can be taken for real and thought of as valid objects of contemplation. However if instead there is some level of panna [pariyatti or satipatthana}, then concept can be seen as mere concept, as per the corresponding level of panna and no idea of `doing' follows. ============================== > Sukin: > As is apparent, most of us today can't even differentiate on the > intellectual level between concept and reality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I met a young lady. I was shocked that she was quite advanced even > though she could not say higher words like 'sati' > and 'panna' 'accumulation' 'sampajaana' etc etc let alone arahatta > magga, anagami magga and vipassana naana. > > She was not thinking in intellectual level. S=> Did she have a problem with "thinking in intellectual level"? ;-) Are you telling me, she did not even hear about "sati" before and that she already developed it to a high degree? And how did you assess her level of understanding? Did you talk to her about nama and rupa and did she know the difference? ============================= > Sukin: > and have so much self-attachment that we refuse to believe that > satipatthana is about mindfulness of "realities" alone. Are the > conditions such that the above time scale applies to this level of > panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I have explained above. It is within Gausian bell. The blunt > may take many many lives while the wise just take a single stanza. S=> OK, so now I see that you do believe in the power of accumulations. So can the `blunt' not go the wrong way? If so, is it not more important to determine what is and what is not the path? Htoo you have good knowledge of the Abhidhamma, so I think you could consider what the path might be without being fooled by the illusion of a `self walking the path'. Why don't you do this? ============================== > After reading my comment above, what do you now think? > BTW, why don't you point to the possibility that the contention is > between `your interpretation' of the Buddha's words and `my own', > instead of questioning my saddha? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Because 'The Buddha's words are denied'. S=> Well, neither of us can ask the Buddha what he actually meant. But we can take into account the hundreds of other suttas and especially the Abhidhamma which point to the possibility of an interpretation unlike the one you choose to make, one that would be valid and consistent with the rest of the Tipitaka. But I have just read a post to Sarah in which you have for some reason chosen to disregard the Abhidhamma [perhaps you mean to point to Sarah's being caught in Abhidhamma logic?] preferring instead to stick to your interpretation and giving no other reason than, "this is what the Buddha instructed". :-/ ============================== > > Old Sukin: > > There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to > > understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, > > hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can > > be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any > > clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: These are ideas. > > Any more than your own? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Pardon? S=> You referred to my statement as mere "ideas" and I agree. What I wanted to know is whether you regard much of what you say to be so as well. =============================== > I was more modest and projected vipassana nana, but your projection > sound very ambitious considering 20th century man! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not good at language especially English. What is 20th > century man! ? S=> People living at this point in time. The implication is, the level of understanding most of us have, to think that we can become sakadagamis and anagamis is not being realistic. Actually, deeper down I see some miscalculation between causes and fruits. ============================ > Practicing *is* the experience (by sati and panna), no experience is > not practicing. I will add, wrong intellectual understanding will not > lead to the practice (hence experience) but will lead to wrong > practice. And this is worse than having `no practice' when having as > yet only the right intellectual understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Now I find why you and some DSGs are afraid of practice. S=> I don't think so, and this is why we keep going in circles. There is no `I' nor `some DSGs' who fear practice, there is just the perception to whatever degree of lobha and ditthi associated with such an idea, and this conditions among other things, seeing the wrongness in `doing' anything and not a matter of being "afraid of practice", do you see the difference? And `no practice' being better than `wrong practice' should be quite obvious. In the former there can yet be development of pariyatti, whereas in the latter, pariyatti is wrong even while we are thinking that patipatti is being developed. And the delusion of this takes us further away from the correct path. But of course you won't be agreeing with this. ;-) ======================================= > > Old Sukin: > > The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is > > only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it > > becomes hard to convince otherwise. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Dittha dhamma are in sight. > > Please explain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is 'words from mahasatipatthana suttas'. When these are > not known how one will develop right understanding. S=> Yes, and what do the words point to other than dhammas which can be experienced with sati and panna in the moment? Right understanding can be developed on the intellectual level with the help of the Abhidhamma without reference to the Satipatthana Sutta. But if the realities expounded in the Abhidhamma is not understood or accepted, then the Satipatthana will be wrongly interpreted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Old Sukin: > > Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, > > thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at > > all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: But 'the bhikkhu pajaanaati'. > > Yes, the bhikkhu there, but are we like them? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I think, this is the third time. The Buddha did not > discriminate. S=> You are missing the point here. When you say that a person "should" be aware of all his activities and you equate this to be `following the Sutta's instructions', then I contend that this is not the same as the `knowing' of the bhikkhu'. I put `should' in quotation marks because, this goes against "is", i.e. the nature of paramattha dhammas. ============================== Htoo: > The Buddha did not discrimately preached as this dhamma is for > anagam, this dhamma is for sakadagam, this dhamma is for sotapam, > this dhamma is for puthujam and this dhamma is just for lay people. S=> Yes it is, but dhammas become `Dhamma' only when there is panna which knows which is which, pariyatti, patipatti or pativedha, and for this sacca parami is most important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Old Sukin: > > But little does he know that besides them being only `thinking', > > wrong view actually influences the quality of the experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Experience and thinking are different. > > Yes, and only panna will know the difference. > > > Old Sukin: > > He ends up thinking and relating any new thing learned with the > > particular practice. In other words he risks developing a distorted > > understanding of conditionality. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: How distorted when one follow The Buddha's Path? S=> If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. ========================= > The question has been and still is, if one is indeed following the > Buddha's Path doing the things you are suggesting them to do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not understand. S=> On the study level, only when there is pariyatti is there a corresponding level of `following the Path'. On the practice level, this must be the actual moments of Satipatthana and not in the intention associated with other roots and which then condition certain activities, like walking or sitting meditation. =========================== > BTW, correct pariyatti and any consequent patipatti necessarily makes > following the path and life in general, easier, not more difficult. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Is there any difficulty any easy? S=> Kusala brings ease and akusala doesn't. =============================== > > Htoo: > > If someone is following the path of mahasatipatthana, he will not > be any wrong. Satipatthaana is always right. > > Take `self', `someone' out of the equation and the path becomes > clearer and easier to follow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not understand. S=> "There is a Path, but no being who walks it." This is not just theoretical. If we observe our experiences we can see how every phenomena is conditioned and beyond control. Conditions leading to akusala can be observed without the interference of self, and so kusala is being developed. And when kusala is observed, there can be appreciation of the conditions leading to it, and this adds to the development too. And conditions good and bad, continue to roll on. The `self' that thinks it knows better, can only become an obstacle to development. ================================= > > > > Old Sukin: > > But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching > > realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do > you expect the reaction to be? > > > I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is > > what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the > > kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of > many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... > > A commentary would greatly be appreciated. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Who is that 'a commentary'? S=> I didn't understand your statement "If The Buddha's Path is followed,...." written in reaction to my comments before that. So I asked for an elaboration, a commentary. ;-) Metta, Sukinder Ps: This is a very long post. Please don't feel obliged to answer point by point; if possible you can just draw out one or two important ones. Sorry to put the burden on you. Pps: I will answer your other post tomorrow, maybe. 45735 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 8:39am Subject: Re: The Cosmologist buddhistmedi... Hi Larry and others - I am not sure what "scientific realism" really means to you. Larry: > Dependent arising refutes scientific realism by the dependent > relationship between condition and conditioned and by its cyclical > nature. Scientific realism isn't cyclical and its notion of cause and > effect is linear and primitive. > T: If you are talking about sciences that involve lives, then I have seen plenty of cases that are cyclical like births and deaths, and they are influenced by conditions too. Causes and effects we have seen in real lives are nonlinear and quite sophisticated. Larry: > > Dependent cessation refutes soul theories in that phenomena cease when their conditions cease. Self view is dependent on desire. With the > cessation of desire there is the cessation of self view. > T: Isn't self view dependent on both avijja and tanha, or mainly on avijja since tanha is caused primarily by avijja? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > SN XII,48, "The Cosmologist" > 45736 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 8:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread (397) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, May I be free from enemies. May you be free from enemies. May they be free from enemies. May enemies of both inside (dosa) and outside (weapon, fire, poison, animals) not be able to attack us. There should not be any boundaries between any person or any being. 1. being who is myself 2. being who is one that I dear of 3. being who is one that I hate of 4. being who is one that I do not dear or hate of All these beings should have receive equal weightage of metta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45737 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Andrew - > > Thank you for the reply. > > T: Besides the breath, what else can be used to condition mindfulness > to stay in front of the body (or within the body)? What are the restrictions > (or limitations) of your method? We can use the rise and fall of the abdomen as our primary object of meditation, sensations as they appear in the body, or where our body touches the ground. I know of no restrictions of the method of breathing, other than over the long-term it may become more difficult to use, as in my case, but I speculate that for others without a condition like mine may be able to use it throughout their lives, and acheive full realization just with the breath as a meditation subject. > > A: > One major point. The book said that these characteristics of reality > > are to be observed as they are, to be seen by themselves, so we do > not have to take it on faith. > > > > T: How do you "observe" the characteristics of a reality without > thinking? Because if you recite the lines from your book then you're not > seeing the "characteristics of reality" the way they really are. Well maybe an example will serve well. If you have pain in your leg, or stiffness, you only try to be aware of the bare sensations as they are. You do not conceptualize the pain as 'my' pain or think about how your leg hurts, you merely take the bare sensations as they are passed from the nerves to your brain. Does this answer your question? > > Respectfully, > > > Tep Regards, A.L. 45738 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:10am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hello again Htoo. > Not to worry about looking up the Pali, Htoo. There is a version > online with Pali and English together. I will try to find it. Here is what I found: Na hi verena verani sammantidha kudacanam averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.1 Verse 5: Hatred is, indeed, never appeased by hatred in this world. It is appeased only by loving-kindness. This is an ancient law. 1. esa dhammo sanantano: This is the same as "poranako dhammo," the doctrine followed by the Budhha and his disciples. The exhortation is not to return hatred for hatred but to conquer it by loving- kindness (absence of hatred). (end quote) Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, How cool! Thanks for your rapid searching. In the version as we both can see there is no mention of 'dosa' or 'adosa'. But 'vera' and 'avera' take over the job. Anyway let us take an example. There is a lake. There is no wind or even subtle breeze. So the water surface of the lake is well calm. OK. A very subtle breeze comes, the water surface a bit moves. A fair breeze comes, the surface ripples. A gust of wind arises, the surface shakes. A small stone drops in, the surface shake a bit more. A large stone is thrown with a force, the surface moves invigoratively. In all examples, the water surface is disturbed to defferent degrees of movement. Hatred and non-hatred is a bit strong, I think. I prefer aversion and non-aversion. I may discover other appropriate English word for dosa and adosa at a later time. Anyway the verse just say 'copnventional sense'. It says 'hatred of today world' and not to cetasika dosa. Examples are when a nation is attacked by another, she may revenge. This will cause endless wars. Only loving-kindness will solve this problem. At least a side has to breed or grow loving-kindness or metta. In Myanmar there is a saying 'hook hooks only hook'. Fighting or any conflict is because both sides are hooked (have hatred). If one side is straight then the hook side will slide along the straight one and there will not be any hooking that is no more fighting. Metta is always cool. But I am not good at details of metta brahmavihaara. There are many more implications than I have just written in Dhamma Thread posts. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45739 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread (398) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, May all beings be free from enemies. These all beings are all beings who are living right now in any of 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. As soon as the boundries are broken down and there is equilibrium there is limitlessness. This is appamanna. And this is appamanna kammatthaana or 'limitless pure-living'. The boundries are between 1. being who we believe is ourselves. 2. beings who are deared by being so called 'we' 3. beings who are hated by being so called 'we' 4. beings who are not deared or not hated by being so called 'we' So metta is not just limited to 'me' or 'us'. If metta is limited to 'me' or 'us', we will be selfish and we will always be doing good only to us and not to others and we will not be performing any altrusitic jobs. If metta is stopped when enemies are encountered, then there is limitation. So as soon as the boundries are broken there is unlimitness or there is appamanna. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45740 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:18am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 3. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, I respond just a part here as the message is long. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Satipatthana are kaayaanupassana or contemplation on the body, > vedanaanupassana or contemplation on feeling, cittaanupassanaa or > contemplation on the mind, dhammaanupassanaa or contemplation on the > dhamma that arise. S=> What is `contemplation' and what is `body', `feeling', `mind' and `dhamma'? Are there ever concepts as object of satipatthana? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: These are The Buddha's words. There are separate 21 sessions. a) 14 sessions are contemplation on the body b) 1 session is contemplation on the feeling c) 1 session is contemplation on the mind d) 5 session is contemplation on the dhamma that arise Contemplation is 'mental review'. Anu means 'detailed' and passana means 'contemplation'. The Buddha did not preach in Mahasatipatthaana 'this is pannatti' 'this is paramattha dhamma' 'bhikkhus you do not contemplate on pannati' 'bhikkhus you just see paramattha dhamma' 'bhikkhus you just see naama and ruupa'. Suttas are vohara desana or pannatta desana. Without words no one can speak. Without words there is no way to instruct. Written scripts are equivalent of spoken words. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45741 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:31am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 4. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dialogue 4: Dear Sukin, This is 2nd reply to your today message. You wrote: > Sukin: > Second, the above reference to different spans of time does suggest > that some might take 7(or 70 or more) years and some might take 1 > day (or 7 or fewer minutes), doesn't it? So why the difference? > Accumulated sati, panna and other parami, no? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha's path is valid, reproducible, right at any time. S=> If you mean the Buddha's path as in the development of sati and panna, then wouldn't you agree that when it is not satipatthana [or at least understanding intellectually what this is], ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) Why do you 'at least' here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: then the path is not being reproduced? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If not reproduced, it means one is not following the Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And can any `self' reproduce this path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Let me see 'self'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When the path was reproduced for Sariputta and when Htoo intends to `do' satipatthana, are these two the same path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no 'Htoo' at all. But regarding satipatthaana path the results are reproducible for anyone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Or are you thinking of conventional activity again and equating that with the path being reproduced? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I was talking conventioanlly you do not follow. But now you are asking 'conventional activity'. What is conventional activity? But anyone who follows mahasatipatthaana path that is who contemplates on the body in connection with 14 contemplation, on the feeling, on the mind, on the dhamma that arise they will see the results. ( These results are reproduced as The Buddha discovered). The Buddha clearly preached that 'contemplation on the body ( 14 sessions)' 'contemplation on the feeling' 'contemplation on the mind' 'contemplation on the dhamma that arise' will lead to achievement of arahatta magga and if there is remanents of defilements then it will lead to achievement of anagami magga. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45742 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:38am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 5. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and interested members, Sukin continued: When the path was reproduced for Sariputta and when Htoo intends to `do' satipatthana, are these two the same path? Or are you thinking of conventional activity again and equating that with the path being reproduced? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: If I have to say like you, there is no Sariputta ( I use capital 'S'), no Htoo and no Sukin. What is 'conventioanl activity'? I have asked you in the previous post. If you have answered in your reply, please do not answer again in this reply post. But anyone whoever it is if they follow the Path of mahasatipatthana they will see the results as The Buddha discovered. On average if someone diligently practise he or she will see the results within 7 years or 7 days. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45743 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:46am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 6. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and interested members, Sukin continued: Htoo: > These are The Buddha words that when one follows hese 4 contemplation for > 7 years, ---- 7 days, he will attain one of 2 fruit of arahatta magga > or anagami magga. This is reproducible path. If you do not believe do > a research and do statistical analysis. 7 years to 7 days are within > Gausian bell. S=> What is Gausian bell, and what is the significance of this? What is it that I don't believe and research into what are you talking about? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: The Buddha preached that if one follows mahasatipatthaana he or she will attain arahatta magga or if there left remanents he or she will attain anagami magga within 7 years. Let alone 7 years, if he or she follow satipatthaana 6 years, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 year; let alone 1 year if one follows satipatthaana for 7 months,--2 months, 1 months, half month and let alone half month if he or she follows satipatthaana for 7 days he or she will attain arahatta magga or if there are remanents of defilement he or she will attain anagami magga. 7 years maximum and 7 days minimun. This is The Buddha general statement. There is no mention of other words whether 1 day or 100,000 kappas. So this is as it seems like general statement it is for average person and it is for most frequencies. There are many frequency distribution curves. If you are not good at such matter please ask Professor Howard Weissamen. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45744 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (399) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Metta is a good thing and metta is universal to all. There are many different ways of practising of metta. There are 528 methods. 4 citations are general. There are 5 objects as general. So there are 20 citation. And there are 7 objects that are less general. So there are 28 citations. Altogether there are 48 citations. These 48 citations are general again. There are 10 specific directive citations. They are 1. east 2. south-east 3. south 4. south-west 5. west 6. north-west 7. north 8. north-east 9. up 10.down So there will be 48.10 = 480 citations. These 480 cittas are added to more general citation 48. So there will be 480 + 48 = 528 metta. In Myanmar cultural society, people say 528-metta when they talk about love between mother and son, father and daughter, brother and sister etc. But love between mother and son may not be as pure as these 528 citational metta. Because mother will have attachment of lobha and so does the son. This is like intellectual calculation. But one can practise metta in this way. 4 general citations are 1. sabbe sattaa averaa hontu 2. sabbe sattaa abyapajjaa hontu 3. sabbe sattaa aniighaa hontu 4. sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu 5 general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe sattaa 2. sabbe paanaa 3. sabbe bhuutaa 4. sabbe puggalaa 5. sabbe attabhaava-pariyapannaa 7 less general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe ariyaa 2. sabbe anariyaa 3. sabbe purisaa 4. sabba itthiyo 5. sabbe manussaa 6. sabbe devaa 7. sabbe vinipatika asuraa So there are 12 objects and there are 4 citations. There will be 12.4 altogether 48 citations for general citation. There are 10 directions or disaa and so there will be 480 citations for all these directions. Along with 48 general 480 citations will make a total of 528 citations. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45745 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:51am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > > > > T: How do you "observe" the characteristics of a reality without > > thinking? Because if you recite the lines from your book then > you're not > > seeing the "characteristics of reality" the way they really are. > > Well maybe an example will serve well. If you have pain in your leg, > or stiffness, you only try to be aware of the bare sensations as they > are. You do not conceptualize the pain as 'my' pain or think about > how your leg hurts, you merely take the bare sensations as they are > passed from the nerves to your brain. Does this answer your question? > Hi, Andrew - Yes, your answer is clear about observing pains because their arising and passing away phenomena are easy to know. But what about other more subtle things? For example, how would you observe the arising and passing away of following things: neutral feelings#; consciousnesses (cittas); perceptions* (sanna khandha); formations (sankhara) ? #adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam vedayamaano adukkhamasukham vedanam vedayaamiti pajaanaa ti * iti sannaya samudhayo, iti sananya atthangamo Thank you for the reply and for your nice intention. Respectfully, Tep ======== 45746 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:07am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 7. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, Sukin wrote: Htoo: > But for those with mandha panna, it may take long. > But for those with tikkha panna, it may take short. > > Every liberated beings just passed through satipatthaana. Kondanna, > Santati, pataacaaraa etc are examples. S=> Has anyone suggested otherwise? But I guess the problem is that you are equating satipatthana with the `practice' as taught by various teachers of meditation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here you are completely and totally wrong. I have already given you examples. The examples are Kondanna, Santati, Pataacaaraa and also Ananda. Did I suggest you any 'practice' as you quoted. I have just been talking on mahasatipatthaana and 14 contemplation on the body, 1 contemplation on the feeling, 1 contemplation on the mind, 5 contemplations on the dhamma that arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: and I am taking it to be a momentary arising of sati and panna, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I see. O! I see. You are just talking on 'a momentary arising of sati and panna'. So you will be driving your children to the school and you are developing 'a momentary sati and panna' when you are driving, reading these messages, you are developing 'a momentary sati and panna' when you are relaxedly doing daily acitvities like watching news, talking news to friends, discussing discussion points with friends and momentarily developing sati and panna. I see. I see. You never sit because it is conventional and it may cause you reaching on the wrong path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: not within anyone's control and unrelated to any idea about time, place or activity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just see these as 'words'. There are 'words' like 'sati and panna, accumulation, no control'. But I do not think 'a momentary sati' and 'momentary panna' is enough to understand The Buddha teachings. Because just in 'a blink' there have been 1,000,000,000,000 consciousness happened. So in a second there will be more and in a minute there are more and more moments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So we keep stating our view point more like talking to ourselves than to the other. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know. But if one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she will attain arahatta magga or anagami magga. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45747 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: nerves to your brain. Does this answer your > question? > > Hi, Andrew - Yes, your answer is clear about observing pains because their arising and passing away phenomena are easy to know. But what about other more subtle things? For example, how would you observe the arising and passing away of following things: neutral feelings#; consciousnesses (cittas); perceptions* (sanna khandha); formations (sankhara) ? #adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam vedayamaano adukkhamasukham vedanam vedayaamiti pajaanaa ti * iti sannaya samudhayo, iti sananya atthangamo Thank you for the reply and for your nice intention. Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and Andrew, Nice discussion. You draw out good discussion points. I will be looking forward to seeing Andrew's good answer. Following feelings is much much more difficult than the breath or body movements. With regards, Htoo Naing 45748 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, Sukin wrote: > Sukin: > I think when sati and panna become bala, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Start to regurgitate. S=> This is one instance and I can understand why for example, Tep feels that Sarah sounds like a broken record. ;-) So let us discuss this so that we don't miss the other's viewpoint. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: OK, Sukin. Let us see it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: I start with the question: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The wise's questions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin asked: Do you agree that there are different level of accumulated sati and panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sassata ditthi is there inside that statement. But I can understand what you said. But you will skilfully cover that subtle sassata ditthi as if it is not there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued to ask: Do you agree that if there were not the right accumulations, then no matter what, the Buddha's teachings will not be understood, less the path be walked upon? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said above there is subtle sassata ditthi or eternity view. There is a spirit (named as citta or mind or consciousness or whatever) and that spirit or soul or citta is accumulating such and such dhamma. I just simply said that 'If one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she will be seeing results in 7 years maximum and 7 days minimum. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45749 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread (400) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 4 general citations are 1. sabbe sattaa averaa hontu 2. sabbe sattaa abyapajjaa hontu 3. sabbe sattaa aniighaa hontu 4. sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu Sabbe means 'all' 'each and every'. Satta means 'sentient being'. Vera means 'enemy' and avera means 'free from enemies'. Hontu means 'be that'. So sabbe satta avera hontu means 'may all beings be free from enemies'. 1. May all beings be free from enemies (inside & outside) Byapajjati means 'trouble'. Abyapajja means 'untroubled'. So 2. Sabbe satta abyapajjaa hontu means 'May all beings be untroubled'. Anigha means 'niddukkha'. Niddukkha means 'free of sufferings, pains'. So 3. Sabbe satta anighaa hontu means 'May all beings be free from sufferings'. Sukha means 'pleasure'. Sukhi-atta means 'physical pleasure'. So 4. Sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu means 'May all beings be healthy and wealthy'. 5 general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe sattaa or 'all beings' 2. sabbe paanaa or 'all creatures' 3. sabbe bhuutaa or 'all grown beings' 4. sabbe puggalaa or 'all individuals' 5. sabbe attabhaava-pariyapannaa or 'all life-inclusive beings' 7 less general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe ariyaa or 'all arahats' 2. sabbe anariyaa or 'all non-arahats' 3. sabbe purisaa or 'all male beings' 4. sabba itthiyo or 'all female beings' 5. sabbe manussaa or 'all human beings' 6. sabbe devaa or 'all devas that is deva-devas and brahma-devas' 7. sabbe vinipatika asuraa or all non-human beings There are 12 objects as general. They are 'the idea or pannatti of mentioned 5 and 7, altogether 12 ideas or 12 pannatti. And there are 4 alternative wishing or citations. So there will be 48 general wishing or citation or mental exertion on these 48 things. After general mental exertion, one who is practising metta may does so to the 10 directions of east, south-east, south, south-west, west, north-west, north, north-east, up and down. When doing mental exertion to up and down, these have to include all beings that are above hios or her level even though the beings above may be in 8 directions. In this way, all directions are included and all beings in X-axis, Y- axis, Z-axis of both right and left or up and down or faced and backed. So there will be 528 mental exertion of metta. Again initially one has to cite or mentally cultivate that he or she starts with 4 citations to himself or herself. 1. Aham avero homi. 2. Aham abyapajjo homi. 3. Aham anigho homi. 4. Aham sukhi-attaanam pariharaami. 1. May I be free from enemies. 2. May I be untroubled. 3. May I be free from sufferings. 4. May I be healthy and wealthy both physically and mentally. 1 is equal to 1. 2 is equal to 2. When we put 1 pound in one side of a scale and another 1 pound to other side of the scale, the scale's indicator will show equal. As soon as one side is heavier than the other the indicator will indicate that heavier side is heavier. Metta has to be equal to all if it is to be universal. That is what universal friendliness means. There must not be any boundries. There are 4 different beings that we may put a boundry. 1. being who is our self 2. beings who are deared by our self 3. beings who are hated by our self 4. beings who are not deared or hated by our self If it is true metta, then there must not be any boundry between these 4 beings. If this happen then this metta is unlimited metta and it is appamanna metta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45750 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: Might I also add kelvin_lwin Hi Phil, It occurs to me the crux of your position is mixing the path and the fruit. > I would say- predictably - that intentionally aligning ourselves > with the noble ones is misguided, but becoming aware of moments in > which we are aligned due to conditions and appreciating these rare > moments will condition further moments of this aligning. kel: There's no misguidance with trying to emulate or striving to better oneself and act like how a sotapanna would. For example just try having as good sila as you can, including mano. The danger is in thinking one is already there and the sila is unbrokable hence mistaking onself of having obtained the fruit (and stopping the practice). I can give you numerous suttas of even well-learned bikkhus having made this same mistake of their attainments. So we should be weary of wrong assessment but the solution is to keep walking on the path. Have confidence in yourself that you can do it and try to do it. If we're being objective, we'll see we fail many times but the frequency should lessen with each attempt. As Htoo been pointing out, this is a progressive path, there IS definite results IF you do it right. So if there's no progress then you're surely doing something wrong. - kel 45751 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 9. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, Sukin wrote: Htoo: > Otherwise satipatthaana will not say > 'when pleasurable feeling in connection with sensuous things arises > he knows it arises'. > Did the ripe one have sexual desire, sensuous desire? This indicate > that satipatthaana is for all level of beings. S=> The ripe can have sexual desire, why not?!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, you can. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Only the Anagami doesn't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But one thing we need to be clear first. The Satipatthana Sutta being addressed to the so called `ripe', ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does the sutta say it is for 'the so called `ripe'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: it does not mean that it is not meant for the `unripe'. In fact it is the contents of this Sutta that make it clear to us what the Practice is all about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You seem to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: We know in other words, the path treaded by the ariyans which we may not have understood from reading most other Suttas. But this Sutta is a "description" of the path and this is about `understanding' and not `doing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: One cannot make sati arise by `intention' to `follow the Buddha's teachings'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you never do it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Only panna can come to know really what the Buddhadhamma is all about and it is only panna which will "practice". Re: the relationship between pariyatti and patipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If one walks it is paripatti. If one shows it is pariyatti. If one destines it is pativedha. The teaching is the same. The essence is the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: My contention is that when a certain section of the unripe hears the instruction, he misunderstands it. Not having the understanding about the uncontrollability of dhammas, he interprets the sutta as things to `do'. The ripe did not have such a misunderstanding, instead by the power of the accumulated panna, attention to paramattha dhammas arose. --------- Htoo: This is following. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The unripe's attention, goes instead to "concepts". ----------- Htoo: This is not following. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If this is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, then these concepts can be taken for real and thought of as valid objects of contemplation. However if instead there is some level of panna [pariyatti or satipatthana}, then concept can be seen as mere concept, as per the corresponding level of panna and no idea of `doing' follows. ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :D Idea of 'doing'. I do not know that. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45752 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:44am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 10. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, Sukin wrote: > > Htoo: How distorted when one follow The Buddha's Path? S=> If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. ========================= Htoo: If one does follow, it is not distorted. Distortion is because of not following. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45753 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread (401) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many ways of practising on 'metta brahmavihara' or 'pure- living on loving-kindness'. Citations of 528 sentences or mental exertion on these 528 wishes is just a means of doing loving-kindness. 'Sukhino vaa khemino hontu sabba satta bhavantu sukhitattaa'. Sukha is wellbeing. Khema means 'free of danger'. Hontu means 'be that'. Sabba means 'all' 'everyone'. Satta means being. Bhavantu means 'exist, fill, full'. Sukhitatta_ sukhi + atta means physical wellbeing. 1. May all beings be healthy, free from danger and filled with physical and mental wellbeing. 2. May all arahats be healthy,wealthy and free of danger. 3. May all non-arahats 4. May beings who have long body (snakes etc) 5. May beings who have short body (mouse etc) 6. May beings who have middle-length body (cat etc) 7. May beings who have large body (elephant etc) 8. May beings who have small body (ant etc) 9. May beings who have middle-sized body (cat etc) 10.May beings who have fat body (pig etc) 11.May beings who have thin body (sparrow etc) 12.May beings who have middle-fat body (cat etc) 13. May beings who have been seen before 14. May beings who have not seen before 15. May beings who are close to us 16. May beings who are distant from us 17. May beings who are grown up 18. May beings who are still not grown up all beings be healthy, wealthy and free of danger. May one not attack others and vice versa. The mother who has a single child will keep her child healthy so that she may not lose him or her. Loving-kindness also protect all beings as if all beings are it single child. All these mental exertions have to be bred or cultivated through out the day. That is both in day time and night time. That is 24 hours or as long as one is still conscious and is aware that he or she is still living. When stand, one has to stand with loving kindness. When sit, one has to sit with loving-kindness. When lying, one has to lie down with loving-kindness. And when walking, loving-kindness should be accompanied. When these contemplations or mental exertions or cultivation happen most of the time and this habbit is no more a difficult practise, then this stage may be equated with parikamma samadhi or preparatory concentration. But there is no uggaha nimitta like other 1st-jhaanika kammatthaana or other 22 meditation objects that can give rise to uggaha nimitta and patibhaaga nimitta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45754 From: nina Date: Thu May 19, 2005 0:17pm Subject: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk nilovg Hi James and all, James wrote: ------- N: James, your remark was the occasion for a good Dhamma discussion on this theme between Lodewijk and I, during dinner. ******** Lodewijk: James made a good point. -------------- Nina: yes, but in order to understand the unconditioned dhamma, should we not first understand conditioned dhammas, like seeing, visible object, etc? ----------- L: Understanding of the reality appearing now is important, but at the same time one should not lose sight of the ultimate aim, the third noble Truth. If only the present moment is stressed, one loses sight of the ultimate goal. There should be a kind of balance, that is the Middle Way. --------- N: We pay respect to the Dhamma, the second Jewel, and that is nibbaana. It reminds us that it is possible to reach it. We pay respect to the Sangha, we think with appreciation of those who reached nibbaana. This gives us confidence that it is possible also for us. ------ L: I think of the sutta I recited in the bus for our friends in India: <³Abandon evil, O monks! One can abandon evil, O monks!If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say ŒAbandon evil!¹ If this abandoning of evil would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to abandon it. But as the abandoning of evil brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, Œabandon evil!¹ Cultivate the good, O monks! One can cultivate what is good, O monks. If it were impossible to cultivate the good, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ If this cultivation of the good would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to cultivate it. But as the cultivation of the good brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ ² (Gradual Sayings Book of the twos, II, 9, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158.)> I was deeply touched while I recited this sutta. The Buddha said: It can be done. -------- N: Yes, Phil also finds this sutta very encouraging. But now, nibbaana is still a concept for us, we can only think of it, speculate about it. ----------- L: Yes, we know that we can only think about it, but it is still good to keep on considering the goal of our practice. --------- N: Nibbaana is so far away. ------ L: It is not good to think in that way. -------- N: Right, then we do not have enough confidence in the Path. We need the perfections to reach the further shore. It is a long way and we are weak. The perfections are the means to reach our goal. Kh. Sujin speaks about the further shore in her book on the Perfections. -------- L: Yes, we have to reach the further shore, this is said many times in the suttas. -------- N: Now we come again to the three rounds Kh. Sujin stresses so often: knowledge of the four noble Truths, the practice and the realization. The first one includes knowing what the four noble Truths are, having a firm understanding about them. This includes the third one, nibbaana. There should be firm understanding not only of the Path, but also of the goal, of what nibbaana is. ***** Nina. 45755 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 1:01pm Subject: Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk kelvin_lwin Hi Nina (Lodewijk), I must say I really identify with what Lodewijk had to say. It gave me chills as I was reading it. > N: Nibbaana is so far away. > ------ > L: It is not good to think in that way. > -------- > N: Right, then we do not have enough confidence in the Path. We need the > perfections to reach the further shore. It is a long way and we are weak. It also troubles me as part of the pessimistic message by only focusing on first 2 noble truths. From the texts we indeed are afforded a rarest of rare opportunity of not only being born a human but in a Buddha Sasana. We must indeed have done great things which only points to our potential. We also know we carry enough akusala baggage which can drag us to the lower realms anytime if we don't use this opportunity wisely. We have Buddha's guarantee that it can be done in this very life. - kel 45756 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 4:44pm Subject: Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk philofillet Hi Nina, Lodwijk and all I really enjoy these Dhamma discussions between Nina and Lodwijk. Hopefully I will report on one between Naomi and I. > Cultivate the good, O monks! One can cultivate what is good, O monks. (snip) > I was deeply touched while I recited this sutta. The Buddha said: It can be > done. > -------- > N: Yes, Phil also finds this sutta very encouraging. Ph: It's interesting. For me, this sutta encourages me to find value in small moments of mindfulness and understanding, encourages me to appreciate the moment more. Personally, I cannot understand nabbaana until I understand the first noble truth. Sometimes, I still find myself wondering why impermanence is dukkha! So you see, nibbaana *is* very far off and just the vaguest of concepts for a beginner like me. This is not the case for everyone. But one thing is for sure - we can begin to eradicate defilements here and now. That's what the Buddha's teaching in this sutta says to me, and it is very encouraging. > But now, nibbaana is still a concept for us, we can only think of it, > speculate about it. > ----------- > L: Yes, we know that we can only think about it, but it is still good to > keep on considering the goal of our practice. > --------- > N: Nibbaana is so far away. > ------ > L: It is not good to think in that way. Ph: But it is also not good to become attached to the concept of nibbaana as something to attain in this lifetime or else! Yes, we are fortunate to be born as humans in this time, that is true, we can keep that in mind, but can we be sure that we are not seeing nibbaana as an accomplishment or attainment that will allow us to feel more contented at the end of this one lifetime? In that case I think the motivation would be fear or clinging to this one lifetime's identity or something. Can we be sure there is not lobha or dosa at the root of our consideration of nibbana? I used the term "lusting for nibbana" in a tongue-in-cheek way, but for a person like me who is still awash in gratification in the khandas, and has not *really* come to understand the danger, I think it is premature to often reflect on the escape. First things first. (snip) > N: Now we come again to the three rounds Kh. Sujin stresses so often: > knowledge of the four noble Truths, the practice and the realization. > The first one includes knowing what the four noble Truths are, having a firm > understanding about them. This includes the third one, nibbaana. There > should be firm understanding not only of the Path, but also of the goal, of > what nibbaana is. Ph: Yes. I do appreciate these reminders. I have a tendency to skip chapters in books or posts here at DSG which deal with sublime attainments, but I will take this post as a reminder to reflect on them now and then, even as I continue to focus on understanding the first and second truths. And in the meantime, there will be many moments in which defilements can wear away a little, and wholesomeness can accumulate a little. There is cause for great encouragement and hope in knowing this. Metta, Phil 45757 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cosmologist lbidd2 Hi Tep, Tep: "Hi Larry and others - I am not sure what "scientific realism" really means to you." L: The logic of science. No kamma. When Tep dies that's the end of his continuity. How would you characterize annihilationism? Tep: "Causes and effects we have seen in real lives are nonlinear and quite sophisticated." L: This is tricky and I'm still thinking about it. B. Bodhi's Note 30, Nidaanavagga reads in part, "For in seeing the dependency of the world, when one sees the nontermination of the conditionally arisen phenomena owing to the nontermination of their conditions, the annihilationist view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur." I take this to mean that condition and conditioned arise at the same time. However, I think there is some wiggle room in what "at the same time" means. I'm not sure what the Buddha is pointing at here, but it does seem antithetical to the usual view of an efficient cause causing a subsequent effect. Tep: "Isn't self view dependent on both avijja and tanha, or mainly on avijja since tanha is caused primarily by avijja?" L: In the dependent arising formula self view is part of the clinging link (upaadaana). Clinging is conditioned by craving and craving is conditioned by feeling. At the beginning ignorance conditions volitional formations and this amounts to the same thing. If we divide dependent arising into three lives, the same things happen in each but they are explained differently. Maybe we could consider this three dimensions of the same events. Larry ps: "Realism" is usually considered to be any kind of view that there is an external reality. "Idealism" is the opposite, no directly knowable external reality. This isn't part of the debate in this sutta but people do debate whether dependent arising is truly realist, idealist, or something else. I would say most scientists are realists. Dependent arising could be either, depending on how you look at it, imo. 45758 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:17pm Subject: Vism.XIV,159 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch.XIV 159. II. (22) As regards the 'unprofitable', there are firstly seventeen associated with the first unprofitable consciousness rooted in greed (22), that is to say, thirteen constant given in the texts as such and four or-what-ever-states. Herein, the thirteen given as such are these: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), happiness (v), energy (vi), life (vii), concentration (viii), (xxxvii) consciencelessness, (xxxviii) shamelessness, (xxxix) greed, (xl) delusion, (xli) wrong view. The four or-what-ever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), (xlii) agitation, attention (xxx). 45759 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cosmologist buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Thank you for this interesting discussion. I think I have learned something useful -- but I am not so sure how useful it is. Let's keep the communication door open. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Tep: "Hi Larry and others - > I am not sure what "scientific realism" really means to you." > > L: The logic of science. No kamma. When Tep dies that's the end of his > continuity. How would you characterize annihilationism? > > Tep: "Causes and effects we have seen in real lives are nonlinear and > quite sophisticated." > > L: This is tricky and I'm still thinking about it. B. Bodhi's Note 30, > Nidaanavagga reads in part, "For in seeing the dependency of the world, > when one sees the nontermination of the conditionally arisen phenomena > owing to the nontermination of their conditions, the annihilationist > view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur." > > I take this to mean that condition and conditioned arise at the same > time. However, I think there is some wiggle room in what "at the same > time" means. I'm not sure what the Buddha is pointing at here, but it > does seem antithetical to the usual view of an efficient cause causing a > subsequent effect. > > Tep: "Isn't self view dependent on both avijja and tanha, or mainly on > avijja since tanha is caused primarily by avijja?" > > L: In the dependent arising formula self view is part of the clinging > link (upaadaana). Clinging is conditioned by craving and craving is > conditioned by feeling. At the beginning ignorance conditions volitional > formations and this amounts to the same thing. If we divide dependent > arising into three lives, the same things happen in each but they are > explained differently. Maybe we could consider this three dimensions of > the same events. > > Larry > ps: "Realism" is usually considered to be any kind of view that there is > an external reality. "Idealism" is the opposite, no directly knowable > external reality. This isn't part of the debate in this sutta but people > do debate whether dependent arising is truly realist, idealist, or > something else. I would say most scientists are realists. Dependent > arising could be either, depending on how you look at it, imo. 45760 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 19, 2005 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cosmologist lbidd2 Hi Tep, The only way I know how to use this sort of thing is to contemplate it occasionally. You probably have these two kinds of theories in your accumulations, a soul theory in the form of self view and an anti-kamma theory in the form of a sense of moving in one direction straight ahead rather than in circles. This sutta says if there is understanding of dependent arising then the anti-kamma theory doesn't seem reasonable. If there is understanding of dependent cessation then soul theories don't seem reasonable. If you understand that desire leads to dissatisfaction and more desire, then that is kamma, moving in circles. If you understand that "you" are based on desire, then the cessation of desire is the cessation of "you". This also applies to any other kind of soul theory you might imagine, such as Christianity or Vedanta. Even though these systems are based on a profound sense of virtue, they are also based on desire. Larry ------------------------- Tep: "Thank you for this interesting discussion. I think I have learned something useful -- but I am not so sure how useful it is. Let's keep the communication door open." 45761 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:41pm Subject: Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk buddhatrue Hi Nina (Phil and Kelvin and Lodewijk), Thanks for sharing this dialogue with Lodewijk. It was very interesting. I was happy to see that Lodewijk grasped immediately the meaning of my statement and why I made it; and that you raised your objections in a logical manner and yet remained open-minded: ultimately to share the dialogue with the group. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! I believe that we should always keep our mind on the goal: nibbana. If we don't, our practice won't be correct or whole. We need to adjust our practice and evaluate our insights based on that goal: are we getting closer or farther from the goal of nibbana? Doing this will also add an energy and enthusiasm to our practice because our motivation will be internal (individual enlightenment) rather than external (other's approval, daily coping, entertainment, etc.). Now, some people say, "Oh, I can't possibly comprehend nibbana" or "Nibbana is just too far off for me", but those are just the defilements talking. That is Mara doing his best to keep us ensnared in samsara. At a gut level we all know what nibbana is: Nibbana is ultimate fulfillment; Nibbana is freedom from craving; Nibbana is everlasting peace; Nibbana is freedom from fear and anxiety; Nibbana is reaching the goal of the Holy Life. We know what nibbana is or we wouldn't be Buddhists. It is Mara who wants us to think that we don't know or to think that it is an unreasonable goal. Just remember, the Buddha knew what nibbana is before he even became enlightened, or he wouldn't have sought that goal. No one else was there to tell his that nibbana was possible, he just knew. And his fellow seekers also knew; and if they knew, we know. The Satipatthana Sutta (Longer Discourse) directs reflection to be on the Four Noble Truths- the Four, not just the one, and then the two, etc. but the Four together. If we don't reflect on the Four together in our daily practice, then our view and practice will be lopsided, as Lodewijk noted. Metta, James 45762 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:40pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 199 - Enthusiasm/piiti (q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Part II, Kindred Sayings about Feeling, Chapter III, §29, Purified and free from carnal taint) about “zest”, píti, that is carnal, píti that is not carnal and píti that is still less carnal: * "And what, monks, is the zest that is carnal? There are five sensual elements, monks. What five? Objects cognizable by the eye, objects desirable, pleasant, delightful and dear, passion-fraught, inciting to lust… There are objects cognizable by the ear… the nose… the tongue… There are things cognizable by the body, tangibles, desirable, pleasant… These, monks, are the five sensual elements. Whatsoever zest, monks, arises owing to these five, that is called “zest that is carnal”." * We then read about the “ zest that is not carnal”, which is píti accompanying the jhånacitta. At the moment of jhånacitta carnal zest is temporarily subdued, one is not infatuated with the five “sensual elements”. We read about the “zest that is still less carnal” than the other kinds: * "…And what monks, is the zest that is still less carnal than the other? That zest which arises in a monk who has destroyed the åsavas(1), who can look upon his heart as released from lust— that zest, monks, is called “the zest that is still less carnal than the other”." * The same is said about pleasure, indifference and “release”, which can be carnal, not carnal and still less carnal. The term “still less carnal” refers to the arahat who has eradicated all forms of attachment so that it never arises again. This sutta reminds us again to be aware of the realities appearing through the different doorways, one at a time. We are usually so absorbed in people and things that we forget that they are not realities, only concepts. It is not a person which is experienced through the eyes, but only a kind of rúpa which is visible object and does not last. We are infatuated with the objects we experience and we do not realize when there is “píti which is carnal”. Píti which is carnal can arise on account of all the objects we experience through the six doors. The sutta illustrates how different píti is when it arises with different types of citta. Píti is conditioned by the accompanying dhammas and, in its turn, it conditions the accompanying dhammas. Píti is saòkhåra dhamma, not self. We may find it difficult to know when enthusiasm is wholesome and when it is unwholesome, but through mindfulness of it when it appears its characteristic can be known more precisely. *** 1) Åsavas or “cankers” are a group into which defilements are classified. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45763 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:01pm Subject: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta sarahprocter... (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) ***** Dear Kel, Ven Dhammanando, Nina & all, We had some very detailed discussions before on the topic of: prior attainments and stagtes of insight of the Bodhisatta and chief disciples in previous lives. In particular, we discussed whether they had previously attained the 11th stage of sankharupekha nana [sa”nkaarupekkhaa-~naa.na - knowledge of equanimity about conditioned dhammas], the last stage of insight before anuloma nana (adaptation knowledge), which is followed by gotrabhu nana (change of lineage) and then magga and phala nana (path and fruition knowledge) in succession in the same mind door process.* You provided a lot of very helpful information and quotes from the Pali texts in support of both the Bodhisatta and chief disciples having formerly reached the stage of sankarupekkha nana. This was based on the comments in various texts about insight being developed up to the stage of anuloma.** After further consideration and lengthy discussion however, I’m still not fully convinced of the conclusions you draw from these passages in the light of other aspects of the teachings and other texts. For example, one of the passages we considered here before was the one concerning Jotipala in the commentary to MN81, the Ghatikara Sutta. In brief, Jotipala was the Bodhisatta, born as a Brahmin in the time of Kassapa Buddha. Ghatikara, a potter, was his friend who invited him to visit the Buddha. Jotipala refused to go, rudely asking ‘what is the use of seeing that bald-pated recluse?’ Ghatíkara insisted, and one day, after they had bathed together in the river, seized Jotipala by the hair as he pleaded once more. Jotipala decided to join his friend and after hearing the Buddha preach, Jotipala became a monk. The discussion concerns whether Jotipala attained sankarupkekkha nana. Ven Dhammanando, quoted the following, which he translated from the commentary to MN81: *** >”What then, Aananda, did the brahmin youth Jotipaala do, having gone forth, obtaining the going forth and the full acceptance in the presence of Kassapa, the Blessed One, Arahant and Sammaasambuddha? [He did] that which should be done by Bodhisattas. For Bodhisattas go forth in the presence of Buddhas, and having gone forth are not like inferior beings who have dropped their horns. Having become well-established in the fourfold purity of virtue, learned the Tipi.taka -- the Buddha-word, undertaken the thirteen austerities, and entered the forest, they fulfil the duty [of maintaining their meditation subject] while going out [for alms] and coming back, perform the dhamma of a sama.na, and cause insight to grow up to conformity knowledge, [but] stopping [there] they do not undertake any striving for the sake of the path and fruit. This is just what Jotipaala did.”< *** From this passage it would seem to be suggesting that in Jotipala insight grew ‘up to conformity knowledge’, (S: i.e. up to sankarupekkha nana, ‘yaava’ in the region of anuloma as explained before). However, perhaps, when it says ‘this is just what Jotipaala did’ it is referring to the lines above about going forth and then as all Bodhisattas did, learning the Tipitaka and developing insight to the highest levels before becoming a Samma-sambuddha in the final life. In other words, it may mean the stages of insights were not developed in that lifetime as Jotipala. Why do I think like this? a) In Jataka 522, which is also about the former life as Jotipala, we read that he was destined to rebirth in hell. He had great skill in archery. It says “‘My skill’, he thought, ‘in the beginning is evidently death, in the middle it is the enjoyment of sin, and in the end it is rebirth in hell: for the destruction of life and excessive carelessness in sinful enjoyment causes rebirth in hell.” (In the later Jataka about Temiya, it also refers to the Bodhisatta’s earlier life in Ussada Hell. It was the recollection of having suffered in hell for eighty thusand years prior to his life as a Deva , determined not to become king and acted mute.) This is significant because we read in the Visuddhimagga that having attained the 2nd stage of insight (paccaya-pariggaha ~naa.na), one is referred to as a lesser (cula) sotapanna with a fixed destiny in heavenly planes. In other words, even on the attainment of the second stage, there will be no rebirth in hell planes as I understand. This second stage is the comprehension of the causal conditions of namas and rupas*. It is also called ‘purification by crossing over doubt’ when panna understands the dependency on conditions of nama and rupa when they arise and how they are devoid of self. In the Vism X1X, 26, it says: *** “When a man practicing insight has become possessed of this knowledge (paccaya-pariggaha ~naa.na), he has found comfort in the Buddhas’ Dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, he is called a ‘lesser stream-enterer’. ‘So would a bhikkhu overcome His doubts, then ever minfully Let him discern conditions both Of mind and matter thoroughly.” *** Also, in the Alagadduupama sutta (Snake Simile), transl by Nyanaponika, it says: “Monks, in this Teaching that was so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who have simply faith in me, simply love for me, are ^all destined for heaven.^ The commentary note to this passage as given by Nyanaponika adds: “Those who have simply faith in me’: This refers to persons devoted to the practice of Insight-meditation (Vipassaka-puggalaa). When monks are seated after having got a firm footing in Insight–meditation, there arises in them a unique and fully absorbing faith in, and love for, the Master of the Ten Powers (i.e the Buddha), (Sub-Cy: because in pursuance of their Insight-meditation they have received proof that ‘The Dhamma is well-proclaimed’). Through that faith and love they are as if taken by the hand and transported to heaven. They are said to be of ^assured-destiny (niyatagatika)^ i.e. of the final attainment of ...Nibbana. The Elder Monks of old say that such Bhikkhus are Lesser Stream-enterers (cuu.la or baala-sotaapanna; Vism 703).” *** So from these commentary passages, it would suggest that a Cula sotapanna, i.e someone who has attained to the 2nd stage of insight is of ^assured destiny ‘niyatagatika’, is assured of higher rebirths and will not be reborn in hell realms.^ For the sotapanna-to-be, there will be conditions to attain the higher stages and there will never be a return to woeful planes as I understand it. b) If the bodhisatta and key disciples had attained high stages of insight from listening to a previous Buddha, I believe they would have become savakas or disciples of that Buddha rather than the self-proclaimed, Samma-sambuddha and disciples of Gotama Buddha. So if Jotipala had become a cula sotapanna he would have become the savaka of the Buddha Kassapa and it would have been impossible for him to become a samma-sambuddha. c) We read in the other Pali extracts about the ‘prior factor’ or effort referring to the higher stages to become a Buddha, but does this have to mean they were already attained in that life? We read about developing satipatthana up to anuloma nana and being ready to attain insights, but this doesn’t necessarily mean at that time, as I understand the passages. It may mean ‘become established’, so that the conditions are ready in order to attain the stages of insight up to sankharupekkha, anuloma and gotrabhu in the last life when they have to be fully developed. Otherwise, the savakas would have become arahants in that life, I believe. It still seems most likely to me that sankharupekkha nana would certainly lead to gotrabhu and magga. That person has almost become enlightened and it would seem most unlikely, even impossible perhaps, to have reached that level of vipassana nana and not become enlightened in that life because the vipassana is so great, greater even than the insight which clearly sees the characteristics of all conditioned dhammas. It is the degree of panna which conditions the departure from the state of worldling when there is nothing left to desire in the world. There has already been nibbida nana (dispassion) when the futility of all namas and rupas has been clearly seen too. In other words, there is already the ‘turning away’ towards enlightenment, I understand, when there is nothing left to desire in the world, ready for nibbana to be experienced. If it weren’t like this, what would be the use of having such insight? d) We also need to question what is meant by the development of all the paramis, with the attainement of the last one, dana, as told in the Vessantara Jataka. It seems unlikely that before this last life the bodhisatta was already a cula sotapanna. He had to develop all the virtues, ready to be enlightened by himself. So, while he had developed all the paramis and a lot of satipatthana over countless lifetimes, these ‘ingredients’ were all being prepeared ready for all the vipassana nanas to arise in his final life as I understand. For other disciples like Sariputta or Bahiya, it would be similar. The ingredients were all prepared so that when they heard the Truths, all the stages could be realized in rapid succession. We joked that this is like a TV cook who lays out all the ingredients perfectly in preparation so that the dish can be quickly concocted when the cameras roll. The paramis are the ingredients, perfectly prepared, ready to become the samma-sambuddha. ***** In conclusion, I’ve considered these aspects a lot and my idea to date is still that stages of insight, especially high stages of insight, were not attained by the Bodhisatta and the key disciples in previous lives for the reasons mentioned here and earlier. However, I think it’s a difficult topic and one unlikely to be resolved. How many lives have we listened and developed wisdom before and to what degree? Who knows? I think that we really have very limited knowledge of the teachings even theoretically and of course it is only by following the path that difficult aspects will become clearer. Even whilst reflecting, the various doubts, attachments, thinking and views can be known as sankhara dhammas too. Any corrections or comments are welcome! With metta and respect, Sarah *1.knowledge of the difference between naama and ruupa, naama-ruupa-pariccheda-ñaa.na 2.discerning conditions for naama and ruupa, paccaya-pariggaha- ñaa.na 3.comprehension by groups, sammasana ñaa.na knowledge of arising and falling away 4. udayabbaya ñaa.na knowledge of dissolution 5.bhanga ñaa.na knowledge of terror 6.bhaya ñaa.na knowledge of danger 7.aadiinava ñaa.na knowledge of dispassion, 8.nibbidaa ñaa.na knowledge of desire for deliverance 9.mucitukamyataa ñaa.na knowledge of reflexion 10.pa.tisankhaa ñaa.na knowledge of equanimity about conditioned dhammas 11.sa”nkhaarupekkhaa ñaa.na adaptation or conformity knowledge 12.anuloma ñaa.na change-of-lineage knowledge 13.gotrabhuu ñaa.na path knowledge 14.magga ñaa.na fruition knowledge 15.phala ñaa.na reviewing knowledge 16.paccavekkha.na ñaa.na ***** **Bhikkhu Dhammanando’s posts with translations from the Pali textual sources http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42544 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42544 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42602 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42575 ============================================================== 45764 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:51pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, > >Old Sukin: > When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has > great chance of developing not only the understanding of the > characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of > paccaya. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is totally wrong idea. It is new delusion. It is subgrandiose > delusion. > > > :-)) Please explain your reason for stating this, in detail if > possible. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > It is evident in the sentences that there is idea of self that is > sakkaaya-ditthi. Sakkaaya-ditthi is wrong idea. Sukin> Would I know it if at the time there was as you say, Sakkaaya-ditthi or wrong idea? ;-) Perhaps there was. But how did you infer this from the above statement? ================================= Htoo: > It is delusion. In clinical psychology there are many delusions. But this is new one > and it is new delusion. And it is quite close to grandiose delusion. Sukin> You are using the conclusions of clinical psychology to teach someone who is only interested in Dhamma, Dhamma? ;-) ================================ Htoo: > Grandiose delusions are wrong beliefs that oneself is better than > anyone else. But when the delusion in question is analysed, it is not > like a typical grandiose delusion. But it has the quality of > grandiosity. So it is subgrandiose delusion. Sukin> Is this putting someone down in order to score some debate points? Or are you trying to teach me a lesson? Let me tell you some of what was going on in my mind. I had not even a moment of thinking about "my" understanding, but yes, there were flashes of a mental picture of Nina and comparing her with you. However this probably lasted no more than 2 seconds, the rest of the time I was thinking in terms of conditions (in a conventional sense) without reference to anyone at all. So no, I don't think `grandiose delusion' etc. applies here. You know Htoo, the reason I asked for details was because I thought that you were referring to my idea of "not trying to control dhammas as having a better chance of understanding conditionality" as being delusional. I had no idea that you were referring to the delusion about `my own understanding'. But never mind, mistakes can happen, the internet is indeed not the best medium for such discussions. ;-) ============================ Htoo: > These details will suffice your thirst of wanting to know what is > what. > > 'when on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has > great chance of ---' > > You mean 'when you do not try to control dhammas you have greater > chance of --- than you try to control dhammas' ? Sukin> Dhammas rise and fall due to conditions beyond control. Sati and panna are two such dhammas. When these arise by conditions the object is known with varying degrees of clarity. With development, not only the characteristics are known, but also other conditions can become apparent to panna. On the other hand, when there is the `intention' to observe, it cannot be satipatthana. This being either motivated by lobha or ditthi, and these create their own `illusion' which is then mistaken to be direct observation of realities. Metta, Sukinder 45765 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note sarahprocter... Hi James, Sorry for the delay. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: As I understand, the bodhipakkhiya dhammas refer to various > cittas and cetasikas (mental factors) which are classified in > different ways, > stressing different aspects, in order to explain the qualities which > have to be developed in order for the conditions for enlightenment to > be realized. These are ultimate realities (dhammas). > > James: I still don't see the connection. It seems that `dhammas' as > it relates to aspects of the suttas is different than `dhammas' as it > relates to the Abhidhamma. Here you aren't really saying that the > Bodhipakkhiya Dhammas are listed in the Abhidhamma, you are saying > that they have corresponding cittas and cetasikas listed in the > Abhidhamma- and that isn't the same thing. But really, this is a minor > issue that I'm not keenly interested in. ... S: Right, that’s probably why I didn’t rush back come to think of it! I think I referred to a whole section of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on the bodhipakkhiya dhammas where they are clearly laid out (ch V11, Compendium of Categories). So they are listed in the Abhidhamma. In the Vibhanga itself (2nd book of the Abhidhamma), all these dhammas are listed. For example, 522: “ ‘Practising the practice of the development of enlightenment states’ means: Therein what are enlightenment states? The seven enlightenment factors (viz,) mindfulness-enlightenment-factor, truth-, energy-, zest-, calmness-, concentration-, equanimity-. These are called enlightenment states. Thus these enlightenment states he pursues, develops, repeats. Therefore this is called ‘practising the practice of the development of enlightenment states.’ All the other groupings are included too. I don’t see any difference in the suttas or the Abhidhamma, but you’re welcome to give me an example. Of course, ‘dhammas’ can have different meanings (see ‘Dhammas – different meanings’ in U.P.), but usually they refer to paramattha dhammas. [“bodhipakkhikaana.m dhammaana.m bhaavanaanuyogam anuyutto” = devoted to the practice (bhavana) of the development of the states (dhamma) partaking of enlightenment.] .... > Sarah: I think the chapter on `The Factors leading to Enlightenment', > (ch 1, Part 1V, The Development of Insight), about p.186 in A.Sujin's > "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", transl by Nina is very clear and you > might be interested to take a look. (Abhidhamma.org). .... > James: I will get to this part later, but this note of yours was the > condition for me to start reading some of K. Sujin's writings on > Abhidhamma.org and it has been quite an eye-opener. I have been > reading her praising the benefits of meditation.... .... S: I don’t think there is anyone here who has not praised the benefits of bhavana (meditation/mental development). We all know that without bhavana and specifically without the development of satipatthana, there will be no Enlightenment Factors developed. The disagreement is *only* on the specifics of what bhavana and particularly satipatthana are. .... >and the purposeful > radiation of metta toward others .... S:She would never agree with those words:-). I think the passage you referred to mentioned ‘extending metta’. This was a translation. The meaning is showing or developing metta to others which she always encourages of course. Like now, when we speak with metta, others can appreciate it and ‘sense’ it perhaps.On the otherhand, they may not, depending on accumulations. They may assume the words are said with aversion instead!! Sometimes by ‘radiating metta’ people have the idea that they can sit at home and ‘radiate’ it to people in Afghanistan or Iraq or somewhere and that those people can benefit or somehow feel it. She never agrees with these kinds of ideas about metta. .... (even how `pouring water' can help to > transfer merit to the deceased- a rather Thai influenced ceremony). .... S: Extending merit is one of the 10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases of meritorious deeds. Nothing is ‘transferred’ . Pouring water is a custom that I seem to recall is even mentioned in the suttas and like all other customs can be followed with right or wrong view, like paying respects in a temple, walking around a stupa three times and so on. .... > Maybe Htoo is right when he says that some here misconstrue her > teachings and misrepresent her?? .... S: Her response would be to check the Tipitaka for oneself and to develop one’s own understanding. We are all here to study the Buddha’s word and meaning and to pay our respects to the Triple Gem. I think we’re all just studying, reflecting, developing understanding and sharing what we can according to our limited knowledge. Metta, Sarah ===== 45766 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 20, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I love the way you set out the discussions with ‘agreed points’ etc. Very helpful. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Agreed Points > -------------------- > > # Because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject to > disease, and they cannot be controlled according to one's wishes. The > logical deduction that follows is that it would be wrong to have the > following viewpoint on each of the five aggregates : 'This is mine, this > is > I, this is my self'. Such a self view is a miccha-ditthi. > # Clinging can be either on right view or a wrong view. > # Miccha-ditthi is a khandha – it is included in sankhara khandha. ... S: So far so good. One minor point – ‘Clinging can be either with or without wrong view’. It cannot be with right view. Perhaps you mean, ‘Clinging can be to any object, including right view or wrong view’?? ... > An Unresolved issue > ------------------------------ > Sarah: The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and > not real. Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is > thus > an illusion. > > Tep: By having the belief that there is no self (self is not real, not > existing), isn't that an extreme view? The two estremes are the view > of 'no self' and the view that self exists. .... S: I think you’ve changed my words a little:). The Buddha taught that all dhammas are anatta and that apart from these dhammas, nothing else exists. This is not an extreme view, it is the truth. Anything other than these (paramatha dhammas) are illusory or conceptual only. As Larry said (I think), the middle path is that of dependent origination, of understanding dhammas as conditioned and anatta. The extreme view you refer to of annihilationism is the view that there is no kamma, no cause and result and that there are no conditions for life to continue after death as I read it. This is quite the opposite from understanding dhammas as anatta. [For the record, Phil, if I refer anytime to ‘no self’, not self’ or‘not- self’, I am simply referring to khandhas as anatta without any distinction between them, though I understand you or others may make distinctions. Apart from the khandhas (and nibbana), no other realities (dhammas) exist.] ... > > The Dialogue Continues > ------------------------------------ > > S: ... the pannatti (concepts) about self or computer or body or > whatever > else, are not real at all. The self or computer cannot be seen or heard > or touched, they can only be imagined. Please let me know if this is > still > not clear. > > T: It is not clear, Sarah, because everybody else will tell you that a > computer and a body can be seen or heard of, and both can be > touched. I assume that you also believe that money is a pannatti and > so it is not real!! But still you depend on it, and if someone steals > all > your money you would be very sad. How can you then say that money > is a concept? :-) .... S: This is the really important point now in this discussion between us. Thank you for the feedback. Let me ask you the following: 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? 3. When you touch the computer, what is experienced? 4. Again, when you open your wallet, what is seen? 5. When you take out the money, what is felt? 6. If there was no sanna marking and remembering objects from birth, would there be any idea of computer and money? 7. Yes, if someone stole my money I’d be sad. Can there not be attachment to concepts? .... > T: Sincerely, Sarah, the fished-out stuff (*) does not indicate that you > understand why the view on " no self " and the view on "there is a self" > [non-existence and existence views] are two extremes. Please read > the following excerpts to review the concept of extreme views. > > [Thanissaro] Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: > Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha > never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with > the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to > point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then > to recommend dropping them. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html .... S: I’d rather just discuss the khandhas:) Honestly, I’ve only read brief extracts of TB’s that friends have posted here and never been very inclined to read more. See Ken H’s comments on TB’s views on anatta in which it’s suggested a lurking self remains, I believe. (Anatta- ATI in U.P. I believe, or he’ll happily give you a full set of links again). ... > [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he > refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the > question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path > to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd > keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified > No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your > innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. ... S: Again, Ken H recently responded to similar comments and notes on the sutta. I don’t want to scare Lisa off by picking up all her points, but as you keep raising them, I’ll look at the sutta again: > > [MN 2] I have a self... I have no self... It is precisely by means of > self that > I perceive self... It is precisely by means of self that I perceive > not-self... > It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self... or... This > very > self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening > of > good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, > eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. > This > is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of > views, > a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the > uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & > death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not > freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. .... S: Nanamoli/Bodhi transl with comments interspersed: “This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future?.................Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?” ... S: I think the doubts and wrong views of self behind all these qus are apparent already. .... “When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him.” ... Translator note: “of these six views, the first two represent the simple antinomy of eternalism and annihilationism; the view that ‘no self exists for me’ is *not* the non-self doctrine of the Buddha, but the materialist view that identifies the individual with the body and thus holds that there is no personal continuity beyond death.” S: As we read elsewhere in suttas. all wrong views stem from a belief in self including annihilationist views. .... “The view ‘self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘no self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with self’ arises in him as true and established....”I perceive not self with self’....’I perceive self with not-self...’..’it is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting,eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.’ This speculative view, bhikkhus, is called the thicket of views...etc”. ... S: So we see these are all various forms of sakkaya ditthi. When someone says ‘no self exists for me’ here, it is still the ‘me’ or self that exists now and with the idea as I mentioned before that there are no conditioned dhammas, no kamma, no rebirth. In other words, it is quite the opposite of what we mean when we refer to dhammas as being anatta, conditioned, beyond control and so on as I think you suggested. At the end of this section of the sutta, we read that attending wisely refers to the contemplation and insight of the Four Noble Truths. The translators add that the commentary, MA “says that up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry, attention denotes insight (vipassanaa), but at the moment of the path it denotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena [S: namas and rupas] comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (aramma.na). Path-knowledge performs four functions regarding the four truths: it fully understands the truth of suffering, abandons the origin of suffering, realizes the cessation of suffering, and develops the way to the cessation of suffering.” .... S: I understand this to be stressing that it is by understanding namas and rupas only that wrong views can be eradicated and the Four Noble Truths realized. This is the development of vipassana bhavana. A little later, exactly the same enlightenment factors starting with mindfulness are given to be developed as I quoted from the Abhidhamma. And it goes on to say: “While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not develop these enlightenment factors, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who develops them.” I’ll look forward to your next summary of agreed points, unresolved and continued dialogue, Tep. Metta, Sarah ======== 45767 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: Sorry for the delay. James: No problem. Sarah: All the other groupings are included too. I don't see any difference in the suttas or the Abhidhamma, but you're welcome to give me an example. James: No, that's okay. I will concede that they are listed at one point in the compendium known as the Abhidhamma. Again, this isn't a major issue to me. Sarah: I don't think there is anyone here who has not praised the benefits of bhavana (meditation/mental development). We all know that without bhavana and specifically without the development of satipatthana, there will be no Enlightenment Factors developed. The disagreement is *only* on the specifics of what bhavana and particularly satipatthana are. James: I don't know what you're getting so defensive about or what this long, pedantic response has to do with the issue I raised. Let me be very specific: I am not convinced that the viewpoint of K. Sujin matches, or agrees with, the viewpoint of DSG Management. When I read her words, translated from the spoken Thai, I get a very different picture of K. Sujin than what is presented in this group. As I have said on numerous occasions, K. Sujin should become a member of this group and speak for herself. I understand that she has a large following in Thailand, her own radio show, he own Dhamma center, and her own published dhamma materials; the Sangha in Thailand respects her and the people respect her, and when I read her words I respect her. But when you, Sarah, talk about what she supposedly teaches, I not only don't respect her but I have real fear that she is doing damage to the dhamma! I can't explain the discrepancy now, but maybe in the future I will be able to. Maybe I will have to go to Thailand one day and talk to K. Sujin for myself (without anyone over my shoulder trying to explain to me "what she really means" ;-). Sarah: She would never agree with those words:-). James: Oh, here we go again, "K. Sujin According to Sarah"- playing at your local theatres everywhere! ;-) Sarah: I think the passage you referred to mentioned `extending metta'. This was a translation. James: So? Sarah: The meaning is showing or developing metta to others which she always encourages of course. James: No, this is not the meaning!!!!!!! She was explaining that if someone's citta has enough metta it can be extended to others for their benefit. Sarah, you have interpreted her meaning to match what you WANT her to mean. I have no such wants because I don't care if she agrees with me or disagrees with me- I don't wish to hook my wagon to her star. Sarah: Sometimes by `radiating metta' people have the idea that they can sit at home and `radiate' it to people in Afghanistan or Iraq or somewhere and that those people can benefit or somehow feel it. She never agrees with these kinds of ideas about metta. James: Well, I wouldn't agree with that either in the manner you have cruelly trivialized it. The radiating or extending of metta isn't going to be able to stop wars in Afghanistan or Iraq, and the Buddha didn't teach it for that purpose. The Buddha taught the extending of metta as a form of protection and/or the development of jhana. Anyway, could you, or someone, please explain to me what the big deal is with this issue? Does it just seem too `magical' so it turns you off? Do you think it reinforces the idea of a self? What is the problem? There seems to be a lot of denial going on with this issue and I'm not quite sure why. Sarah: Extending merit is one of the 10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases of meritorious deeds. Nothing is `transferred' . Pouring water is a custom that I seem to recall is even mentioned in the suttas and like all other customs can be followed with right or wrong view, like paying respects in a temple, walking around a stupa three times and so on. James: Pouring water is mentioned in what sutta? If you can pull out your "10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases or meritorious deeds", surely you can tell me the sutta the custom of pouring water comes from ;-)). Sarah: Her response would be to check the Tipitaka for oneself and to develop one's own understanding. James: This issue doesn't have to do with how she teaches the dhamma, it has to do with how DSG Management presents her teachings to others. I don't know what her response would be, but maybe one day I will find out- for myself. Metta, James 45768 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Htoo & all), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > My earlier story of a personal walking meditation is "meditation while > walking" in which the mindfulness and the thorough comprehension > (sampajanna) are with the "body in the body" ( walking, stopping, > standing and turning back – iriyapatha <...> > Sarah (to Htoo in # 45575): Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the > understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics > (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas > about walking and so on . <...> .... S: I’ve read and considered your further comments in response to these, Tep. I appreciate that this is a sensitive topic at the heart of what we consider to be bhavana and one you’ve considered carefully. Here are a few more brief points – I hope there will be some agreement at least. 1. As you mention above, it is ‘meditation while walking’ and so on, not meditation or mindfulness of walking. Vibhanga 508 “..he, in approaching and departing, acts with awareness; in looking ahead and in looking around he acts with awarenss....in bending and in stretching....in bearing the outer robe, the alms-bowl and the under robe....eating..drinking...chewing..tasting..obeying the calls of nature...walking..standing...sitting...sleeping...waking...talking...being silent...etc”. 2. As it was just stressed in the commentary to MN2, insight is into namas and rupas. Note that kaaya in this context refers to rupas. So the Satipatthana sutta is also encouraging the development of awareness and insight into namas and rupas whilst walking, stretching, eating, developing samatha and so on as I read it. 3. The awareness (sati) is developed with understanding (sampajanna) to know the various namas and rupas, leading to vipassana (insight) and eventually the development of the enlightenment factors. This applies equally to those who have already developed samatha to jhana level. ..... T:> So, Sarah, it seems that your obsessed self-view jumped out again, > when you wrote : "Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover > up the understanding of realities as anicca the clinging to an idea of > these postures as being real and at one's command that reinforces the > idea of atta." [S: anicca should probably read dukkha here to 'conform' with the text that follows]. ... S: Instead of giving more of my ‘obsessed’ views then, let me add a couple of quotes on this topic of postures (iriyaapatha) from the commentary to the Vibhanga, transl as ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (PTS): *** 242: “For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious...........but here it should be understood that he taught it by means of both impermanence and pain. “But it is owing to not keeping in mind, owing to non-penetration of what and owing to concealment by what that these characteristics do not appear? Firstly the characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the rise and fall owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati). “The characteristic of pain does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating continuous oppression and owing to its being concealed by the postures (iriyaapatha).” [S: rather than being aware of postures, it is the idea of postures that conceals the truths about the elements as dukkha.. When there is awareness, there’s no idea of posture at all] “The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness." [S: When there is an idea of ‘wholes’ such as posture, chariot or self, there is no understanding of dhatus (elements) and no way to understand anatta.] “But when continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When the postures are exposed (ugghaa.tita) by keeping in mind continual oppression, the characteristic of pain appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature. “Herein, the five aggregates (pa~ncakkhandha) are impermanent. Why? Because they rise and fall and change, or be cause of their absence after having been. Risea nd fall and change are the characteristic of impermanence, or mode of alteration (aakaaravikaara) called absence after having been. "But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words ‘what is impermanent is painful’ (S iv 1). Why? Because of continual oppression. The mode of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain. "But the same five aggregates are no-self because of the words ‘what is painful is no-self’ (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self.” [S: ‘no exercising power over them’, neither the khandhas or any ideas about them, such as postures, are at one’s command]. ***** Tep, I hope this clarifies a little. I'll be glad to hear further comments from you, Htoo or anyone else. ***** Metta, Sarah p.s we also discussed these same points in India with A.Sujin. See Nina's helpful summary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41391 extract: "There are three ways of wrong thinking that prevent us from seeing the truth. Clinging to the postures of walking, standing, sitting and lying down prevent us from realizing the arising and falling away of the rúpas of the body. We think, for example, of ourselves as sitting. It is saññå which remembers that we are sitting, but we do not realize that what we take for the body which sits consists of rúpas that arise and fall away. Secondly, we are misled by the continuity or succession (santati) of nåma and of rúpa. They arise and fall away immediately to be followed by a succeeding one and therefore we think that they are lasting. It seems that we are seeing people, and that seeing lasts, but in reality many cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another. It seems that paying attention to shape and form occurs at the same time as seeing, but these are different moments. <..> Thirdly, we are also misled by remembrance of a ³group², gana saññå. We experience nåmas as a group, a whole, and rúpas as a group. We see only a ³whole² of different dhammas. We cling to the idea of a person who exists, whereas in reality a person is only citta, cetasika and rúpa which arise and fall away immediately." ======= 45769 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk nilovg Hi Phil and Kel, I appreciated your messages. Kel wrote: It also troubles me as part of the pessimistic message by only focusing on first 2 noble truths. From the texts we indeed are afforded a rarest of rare opportunity of not only being born a human but in a Buddha Sasana. We must indeed have done great things which only points to our potential. We also know we carry enough akusala baggage which can drag us to the lower realms anytime if we don't use this opportunity wisely. We have Buddha's guarantee that it can be done in this very life. ----- op 20-05-2005 01:44 schreef Philip op philco777@...: ... Personally, I cannot understand nibbaana until I understand the first noble truth.... But it is also not good to become attached to the concept of > nibbaana as something to attain in this lifetime or else! ... Can we be sure there is not lobha > or dosa at the root of our consideration of nibbana?... I think it is > premature to often reflect on the escape. First things first. ---------------- N: I told Lodewijk of your posts and he said: the Buddha also spoke about the third noble Truth and that is no small matter. I think we should listen to him. It is not good to be led by fear of clinging, as Kel said, that is pessimistic. As he said, we better focus on the great opportunity granted to us, and we have the guarantee that it can be done. We cling to everything, also to the stages of insight, but more important is knowing that we are clinging. Nibbaana cannot be object of clinging, but when we think of nibbaana we may cling to a concept we have of it. But again, we should not be led by fear. As Lodewijk said, by stressing only one point (knowing the present moment) we omit the goal and then we are out of balance. It is the same as when we stress: there are only nama and rupa, no persons, and we forget that we are living in this world with people. But these two things do not contradict each other. We develop the brahma viharas, and this in a more effective way, without selfishness and with knowledge of the near enemies, when there is also the development of vipassana. --------- > Ph: I have a tendency to skip chapters in books or posts here at DSG which deal with sublime > attainments, -------- N: I also have this, when I read about nibbaana. But now I found very good texts, worth considering. These can remind us not to be negligent. Then we shall miss the goal! Thus, such texts about nibbaana can remind us of the rare opportunity offered to us. ------- Ph:... And in the meantime, there will be many > moments in which defilements can wear away a little, and > wholesomeness can accumulate a little. There is cause for great > encouragement and hope in knowing this. --------- N: The latent tendencies condition akusala and they are eradicated at enlightenment. But meanwhile, they can wear away. In the Kindred Sayings IV, Sayings about the uncompounded, thnere are 44 expressions for nibbaana (IV, 366):< The end, Without aasavas, Truth, The hard to see, The unfading...The wonderful, The marvellous..The refuge, the goal.> And in IV, 72, Including, in the verse: The message is: through mindfulness of what appears through the six doors there will be less clinging and then: near is nibbaana. Thus we should not say: it is too far away. Nina. 45770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Enthusiasm/piiti , Htoo nilovg Dear Htoo, your note on piiti is most welcome, it inspires me to consider more kusala and akusala. How timely is Larry's Visuddhimagga message, with this list of akusala cetasikas, after the list of sobhana cetasikas. It is a world of difference, it is dramatical, I would say. Instead of answering line by line, I would rather take out a few points, otherwise the reader is burdened by too much material. BTW I answer your other Q. later on. op 19-05-2005 12:19 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: , I do not think 'entirely different'. As it is > piti cetasika, they (lobha-mula cittas and kusala cittas) share a > single characteristic of piti. > The difference is 'object', 'associated dhamma', 'supporting > conditions'. --------- N: Yes, and being conditioned by way of sahajata, conascence, causes an immense difference. Take volition in kusala citta and akusala citta: what repercussions in our life! Kamma and vipaaka. Manasikaara: the right attention is the proximate cause for kusala, the wrong attention for akusala. One cetasika, manasikaara, a dhamma with a specific characteristic and function, but how different. The kusala citta and cetasikas are all pure, they are accompanied by saddhaa. They are accompanied by sati that is non-forgetful of kusala, alert for kusala. Take the cetasikas of calm, lightness, wieldiness etc. They all make citta and cetasikas pliable, competent for kusala. Take energy, which is energy for kusala. Chanda, wish-to-do for kusala. The akusala citta and cetasikas are all deluded by the darkness of moha, they are all poisoned by shamelessness and recklessness. They lack sati, they are forgetful of kusala. They are impure, they lack saddha. Energy or effort is wrong effort, whatever it undertakes, it does not lead to anything good. Chanda is impure, it is also called chanda raga or kaama-chanda Happy feeling is very different when it is kusala and when it is akusala. We could check. Is there a difference in happy feeling when laughing, and when we give with pure generosity? In the first case it is coarse, in the second case it is refined and it has calm. Even in the sutta, the Buddha classified feelings as 108, and this shows that the one cetasika feeling is very diverse. But because of delusion we do not detect the difference between kusala and akusala. Lobha has many tricks and comes in disguise. We may take pleasant feeling accompanying lobha for pleasant feeling that is kusala. This may happen when we do not notice the near enemy of metta: selfish affection. When there is kusala, we do not aim for our own gain or profit. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So only 'ruupa' can serve as purejaata paccaya or prenascent > condition. > But I said that earlier piti.s may serve as prenascent condition so > that later piti.s become stronger to that level of sati-sambojjhanga. ------------- N: I looked up purejaata paccaya in Guide to Conditional Relations, (Narada) p. 43, and as you said, only rupa that is object or vatthu that is the physical base conditions naama. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and thus it must arise before the nama it conditions. Thus, this does not pertain to earlier piiti and piiti arising later on. --------- H: But when real dhamma is examined, sati is just sati and it has its > character both in kusala and akusala. I think the difference is > object, associated dhammas, and supporting conditions. -------- N: Akusala citta and cetasikas do not have sati, they lack sati. They go into the wrong direction, they lead to downfall. Nina. 45771 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Sukin, ----------------- S: > Thanks for the support. ------------------ Thanks for calling it that, but I might have done better to let you and Matheesha continue your discussion - unsupported. :-) ---------------------------------------------- S: > Logic and reasoning is a useful tool for those of us who agree, but for opposing views, it does not work most of the time. In fact, I doubt that you can reason anyone into Right View. ----------------------------------------------- I especially like the logic and reasoning you have been using in your discussion with Htoo. For example, you said "Take `self', `someone' out of the equation and the path becomes clearer and easier to follow." It seems that some of us are saying, "Take self out and the path becomes clearer," while others are saying something very different: " Take self out *when* the path becomes clearer." -------------------------------- S: > There are benefits to discussing, so in the end one continues doing it. ;-) ------------------ And while there is 'courage, patience and good cheer' we can't go wrong. Ken H 45772 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread (402) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When there reaches a time that there is no difficulty to exert loving- kindness on beings the practitioner will be able to stay with loving- kindness almost all the time. As soon as he or she wakes up, loving-kindness starts to arise in him or her. This is brought along the whole day and then the whole night except the sleeping period or time. Whenever he or she goes, loving- kindness follows. As this happens, at the same time there will not be any discrimination between different types of beings as mentioned in the previous posts. Everyone on this earth loves themselves. Whenever there arises a competition of one's self and others' most people will be on the side of thier selves instead of equilibrium. There are 4 different types of beings from the perspective of priority. These beings are 1. being who we believe is our self 2. beings who are deared by us 3. beings who are not deared or not hated by us 4. beings who are hated by us These 4 beings come in this seniority for priority. If there is just one apple, one will eat it and will not give anyone. If there is 2 apples, one will eat one apple and gives another apple to the deared one. If there is 3 apples and he or she is suggest to give each apple to these 4 beings, one will take for himself or herself, gives one apple to the deared one and gives the 3rd apple to non-deared-non-hated being. If metta is a true one, it should be working for all. Another example is that when a murderer comes and asks for a person to kill from these 4 beings, no one should be given. If one let kill his or her self for the sake of other there is a boundry. If gives the hated one, this is not metta. If gives non- deared-non-hated one, this is also not metta. If one gives the deared one, there still exist boundry. There should not be any boundry between any beings deared or hated or not. This has to be. Because metta is universal friendliness and metta work for all and metta is not limited to anyone. Metta has to be unlimited. This kind of unlimited metta has to be brought along throught out the day and night and brought along wherever he or she goes. When this happens, this is mental exertion and this is metta-vitakka or this is thinking in the form of loving-kindness and vitakka or initial- application is working well. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45773 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:52am Subject: [dsg] Re:Q. Enthusiasm/piiti , Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > your note on piiti is most welcome, it inspires me to consider more kusala > and akusala. and supporting conditions. > -------- > N: Akusala citta and cetasikas do not have sati, they lack sati. They go > into the wrong direction, they lead to downfall. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your explanation on associated cetasikas in comparison with kusala and akusala. In the later part I think I shifted to 'sati'. We were talking on piiti. It might be my accidental mistake to talk on sati instead of piti. With respect, Htoo Naing 45774 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: Extending merit is one of the 10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases > of meritorious deeds. Nothing is `transferred' . Pouring water is a > custom that I seem to recall is even mentioned in the suttas and like > all other customs can be followed with right or wrong view, like > paying respects in a temple, walking around a stupa three times and so > on. > > James: Pouring water is mentioned in what sutta? If you can pull out > your "10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases or meritorious deeds", surely > you can tell me the sutta the custom of pouring water comes from ;-)). .... S: The Tirokudda Sutta and commentary were probably what I was thinking of, but no time to discuss further;-)). Metta, Sarah p.s I suggested to Jon that it might be better if I resigned from 'the management' as it seems to cause you distress and I thought it might be better for the list. Unfortunately, he won't hear of it and says he needs my assistance. I tried:-)). ====== 45775 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:10am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,159 htootintnaing Dear Larry, Thanks for your post. You wrote: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch.XIV 159. II. (22) As regards the 'unprofitable', there are firstly seventeen associated with the first unprofitable consciousness rooted in greed (22), that is to say, thirteen constant given in the texts as such and four or-what-ever-states. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The first unprofitable consciousness is somanassa saha gatam ditthi sampayutta asankharika citta or happy-minded wrong-viewing unprompted consciousness. You said 17 associated. I think it is 19 associated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Herein, the thirteen given as such are these: [phassa] contact (i), [cetana]volition (ii), [vitakka]applied thought (iii), [vicaara]sustained thought(iv), [piiti]happiness (v), [viiriya]energy (vi), [jivitindriya]life (vii), [ekaggataa]concentration (viii), (xxxvii) consciencelessness, (xxxviii) shamelessness [ahirika], (xxxix) greed[lobha], (xl) delusion[moha], (xli) wrong view[ditthi]. The four or-what-ever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), (xlii) agitation, attention (xxx). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was puzzled. I could not make things out on your post. 1st unprofitable consciousness has 19 associated. a) 7 universal mental factors (sabbacitta saadharana cetasikas0 1. phassa or contact 2. vedana or feeling 3. cetana or volition 4. sanna or perception 5. ekaggata or one-pointedness 6. jivitindriya or mental life 7. manasikara or attention b) 6 particular mental factors (pakinnaka cetasikas) 1. vitakka or initial application 2. vicaara or sustained application 3. piiti or joy 4. viiriya or effort 5. chanda or zeal 6. adhimokkha or decisiveness c) 4 universal unwholesome mental factors (sabbaakusala saadharana ) 1. moha or ignorance 2. ahirika or shameless 3. anottappa or fearlessness 4. uddhacca or restlessness d) 2 attachment-led mental factors 1. lobha or attachment 2. ditthi or wrong view So in the 1st unprofitable consciousness there are 19 associates. They are 1. 7 universal mental factors 2. 6 particular mental factors 3. 4 universal unwholesome mental factors 4. 2 attachment-led mental factors --- 19 cetasikas With Metta, Htoo Naing 45776 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread (403) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When metta or loving-kindness is with us all the time through out the day and through out the night and metta or loving-kindness or universal-friendliness is with us wherever we go that is when we stand, when we sit, when we lie down, when we walk, it can be said that we are living with loving-kindness or we are staying with pure- living-on-loving-kindness or metta-brahmavihara. When there are only these thoughts of wishing all beings to be healthy, wealthy, free of danger etc etc, there will not be any thoughts of aversion like 'wanting to kill, wanting to hit, wanting to destroy etc etc'. So there is free of byapada or aversive-thinking. As these wishes are pure wishes and they are not profit-expecting wishes there will not be any sensuous-thinking or kaamacchanda. If one is doing metta and he or she is expecting some forms of profit by doing this metta then this is not a true one. If this happens, then there already arise sensuous-thinging or kaamacchanda nivarana or hindrance of sensuous-thinking. When one is stick to these metta-wishes all the time, there will not be any worrying and there will not be any straying of thoughts. Because their thoughts are all directed to beings and these beings are not discriminated as there is no more boundry when the practise is advanced. This is breakage of the 3rd hindrance called uddhacca- kukkucca-nivarana or hindrance of spreading-worrying-thinking. When one is consciously proliferating all these pure wishes of kindness on all beings without any limitation, he or she is alert, active, light, flexible, fast-minded, malleable, calmed and there is no sloth and torpor. This is breakage of the 4th hindrance called thina-middha-nivarana or hindrance of sloth-torpored-thinking. When there are not any of these 4 hindrances and one is diligently practising metta-bhavana in this way, he or she will be happy, calm, tranquilised with metta-bhavana and when there is no doubt or suspicion on the practice, then the 5th hindrance is said to be broken down and it does not arise any more when there is a continuous flow of thoughts of kindness-wishes to all beings. As there is free of all hindrances, the concentration at that particular time can be called as proximity-concentration or upacaara samadhi. Because this kind of concentration is proximate to the next step of much stronger concentration called absroptice concentration or appanaa samadhi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45777 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:21am Subject: Breathing Treatise / Finishing Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested DSG members - Please recall that the previous post ended at 10. In this post we go from paragraph 11 to paragraph 14, which is the last one in Section ii. 11. The cognizance that hunts the past, That loves the future, that is slack, Over-exerted, or enticed, Or repelled, is unconcentrated. These six defects in concentration Based upon mindfulness of breathing Are such that when they stain his thought He knows not higher cognizance. 12. (1) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of the in-breath, his cognizance being distracted internally, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (2) When he goes out with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of the out-breath, his cognizance being distracted externally, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (3) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, in- breath both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (4) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, out- breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (5) Owing to longing for out-breath in him when he is fatigued by [too long or too short] in-breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (6) Owing to longing for in-breath in him when he is fatigued by out- breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjana) to the sign, his cognizance is still shakable by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (8) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (9) If, when he adverts to the sign, his cognizance is still shakable by out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (10) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (11) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (12) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (13) With cognizance running after the past and attacked by distraction both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (14) With cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future [breaths] both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (15) With cognizance slack and attacked by indolence both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (16) With cognizance over-exerted and attacked by agitation both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (17) With cognizance enticed and attacked by greed both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (18) With cognizance repelled and attacked by ill-will both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. 13. One whose mindfulness of breathing Is undeveloped, unperfected, Finds perturbation of his body Likewise of his cognizance, He is then excited in his body And likewise in his cognizance. One whose mindfulness of breathing Has been developed and perfected, Quits perturbation of his body And likewise of his cognizance, He is unexcited in his body And likewise in his cognizance. 14. When one whose cognizance(citta) is purified from those hindrances [mentioned in Section i] develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds these eighteen imperfections(upakkilesa) arise in him in momentary combinations (samodhaana). [End of Section ii] Tep's Note: I tried to look for the Pali for words like perturbation, shakable, excited and disquieted, but the INDEX has no Pali for these words. Section iii (Part 1, paragraphs 15 - 23) will be posted next Friday, 5/27/05. Respectfully, Tep ========== 45778 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 11. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, This is the last part of reply to your first long reply. You wrote: > Htoo: I do not understand. S=> On the study level, only when there is pariyatti is there a corresponding level of `following the Path'. On the practice level, this must be the actual moments of Satipatthana and not in the intention associated with other roots and which then condition certain activities, like walking orsitting meditation. =========================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The first sentence is not clear to me. Later parts sounds right. Generally even though 'the above passage is not clear to me I grasp the idea. That is you are right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Is there any difficulty any easy? S=> Kusala brings ease and akusala doesn't. =============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I asked whether there is 1.difficulty, whether there is 2.easy. Anyway leave this part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > If someone is following the path of mahasatipatthana, he will not > be any wrong. Satipatthaana is always right. > Take `self', `someone' out of the equation and the path becomes > clearer and easier to follow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not understand. S=> "There is a Path, but no being who walks it." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This is not just theoretical. If we observe our experiences we can see how every phenomena is conditioned and beyond control. Conditions leading to akusala can be observed without the interference of self, and so kusala is being developed. And when kusala is observed, there can be appreciation of the conditions leading to it, and this adds to the development too. And conditions good and bad, continue to roll on. The `self' that thinks it knows better, can only become an obstacle to development. ================================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. I agree. But still thinking that 'this is a good logical thinking'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Old Sukin: > > But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching > > realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do > you expect the reaction to be? > > I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is > > what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the > > kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of > many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... > A commentary would greatly be appreciated. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Who is that 'a commentary'? S=> I didn't understand your statement "If The Buddha's Path is followed,...." written in reaction to my comments before that. So I asked for an elaboration, a commentary. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha. Now I see. I just put a piece as if it is 'a title of a movie or film'. Maybe one day it would become a title. So this is the end of our part 1 discussion. I will also reply your Ps: below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Metta, Sukinder Ps: This is a very long post. Please don't feel obliged to answer point by point; if possible you can just draw out one or two important ones. Sorry to put the burden on you. Pps: I will answer your other post tomorrow, maybe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have extensively and intensively replied in details. It has been nice to talk to you and I obtain a lot of wisdom from your self. Thanks for your invitation to DSG 2 years ago. You indirectly taught me a lot. I am nothing but a baby. You can review my earlier messages here, which are all like baby-messages. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 45779 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Finishing Section ii htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Hi, all interested DSG members - > Please recall that the previous post ended at 10. In this post we go from paragraph 11 to paragraph 14, which is the last one in Section ii. > Section iii (Part 1, paragraphs 15 - 23) will be posted next Friday, > 5/27/05. > Respectfully, > Tep ========== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Could you please link section i. Thanks, Htoo 45780 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread (404) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When practising pure-living-on-loving-kindness or metta-brahmavihara the advanced practitioner will notice that there is no hindrances at a time. His mind is pure and free of contamination with aversion, sensuous desire and any other dirts or defilements. He is directing all his loving mind to unlimited beings. This is vitakka. Vitakka or initial-application is working well and they do not direct to other thoughts and they just have the thoughts of loving- kindness wish to unlimited beings. His application of mind to unlimited beings will not depart from those beings and all the mind will be there all the time by reviewing after reviewing on beings with loving-kindness. This is vicaara. This is sustained application or sustained application of the mind to the object 'unlimited beings'. To be unlimited, all the boundries have to be broken down and all beings have access to equal amount of loving-kindness. When these boundries are broken down and there is continuous arising of loving- kindness wishes on unlimited beings and this is accompanied by thrilling happiness or suffusing joy which makes the whole body lighter and lighter and it seems that each and every body cell becomes lighter and they are suffused with great joy derived from mental activities of loving-kindness. This is piiti or 'suffused joy'. As there is no defilements, no dirts, no wavering, the mind at that time is well calm and tranquilised. And the mind feels peaceful and free of any physical and mental distress. This is sukha. This is tranquility. This is calmness. The mind is in the state of advanced calmness and stillness. This is ekaggata or one- pointedness. These factors namely vitakka or initial-application, vicaara or sustained-application, piiti or 'suffused-joy', sukha or 'physical and mental undistress' or 'calmness' or 'tranquility', and ekaggata or 'one- pointedness' are all jhaana factors. They are working well very effectively. This is a state of close proximity to absorptive state of mind. And this is called upacaara samadhi or proximity-concentration. At a unspecified time 'the mind in proximity-concentration' of pure- living-loving-kindness cultivation is well absorbed into a singlity as 1st jhaana state and this is 1st jhana with metta-brahmavihaara kammatthaana bhaavana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45781 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo, as all are agreed and understood here. Sukin> Dhammas rise and fall due to conditions beyond control. Sati and panna are two such dhammas. When these arise by conditions the object is known with varying degrees of clarity. With development, not only the characteristics are known, but also other conditions can become apparent to panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Up to this point, it is OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: On the other hand, when there is the `intention' to observe, it cannot be satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please explain this. Which is good, intentionful or intentionless when observing? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This being either motivated by lobha or ditthi, and these create their own `illusion' which is then mistaken to be direct observation of realities. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would suggest you read 'Upanisa sutta'. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45782 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:14am Subject: Unwholesome consciousness htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 attachment-consciousness. The first four are all associated with happiness or joy while the latter four consciousness are all not associated with joy or happiness but they just arise with indifferent feeling. The first 4 attachment-consciousness are 1. happy-minded wrong-viewing unprompted consciousness 2. happy-minded wrong-viewing prompted consciousness 3. happy-minded non-wrong-viewing unprompted consciousness 4. happy-minded non-wrong-viewing prompted consciousness. The 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th are all the same as above with the only exception of not associated with 'happy-mind' or joy. But all these 4 consciousness are associated with indifferent feeling. The fifth lobha citta is seen as in a case of a child while he is listening his parents' talking interestingly. He is not particularly happy because he does not fully understand adult's speech. But as there is lobha he is listening actively. There is wrong view as he does not know kamma well. And no one is urging him to listen. The sixth lobha citta is seen as in case of a child while he is receiving a present and being told that it is for him. He is not particularly happy. This is upekkha. He does not know kamma. But he is told that the present is for him. Before he hears this, lobha citta does not arise. When told, it arises. This is sasankharika or being urged. The seventh lobha citta can be seen in case of an adult when he is counting some notes of money. He is not particularly happy as this amount of money is nothing to do with somanassa. He knows kamma well. No one is urging him in his action. The eighth lobha citta can be seen in case of an adult when he is counting some notes of other people's money when he is told that the notes he is counting is for him. Amount is not much and he has to be urgerd. So this is sasankharika lobha citta. There are 2 dosa mula cittas. They are _ 1.domanassa sahagatam patigha samyuttam asankharika cittam 2.domanassa sahagatam patigha samyuttam sasankharika cittam. Domanassa means unpleasant feeling in mind. Patigha means destructing, hurting. The first dosa citta can be seen in most of dosa cittas where people apparently behaving aggressively like killing, hitting, pounding, kicking, swearing etc etc. The second dosa citta can be seen in the case when a man is told something and he did not hear that. A friend told that it was you who is foolish. Then he becomes angry. He has to be prompted. So this is sasankharika citta. There are 2 moha mula cittas. They are_ 1.upekkha sahagatam vicikiccha samyutta cittam 2.upekkha sahagatam uddhcca samyutta cittam The first moha citta is seen in a case of undecisiveness when a person cannot decide right or wrong and he has suspicion on the matter. The second moha citta can be seen in most people while they are wandering thinking fancily. This can be seen especially in case of grief reaction. When someone lost, then there is restlessness and people concerned are upseted. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45783 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Finishing Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo - Section i was posted in Message # 45336. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Could you please link section i. > > Thanks, > > Htoo 45784 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 2:33am Subject: The Rhinocero's Horns 3! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Twin Truths won by keen Dual Consideration: The blessed Buddha once said: Friends, the first consideration is: Whatever Misery arises, this Misery is caused by Ignorance! Another consequent consideration is: Clearing all Ignorance by Understanding, ends arising of Misery! This immensely long round of rebirth with transition from now this, then to that form, is caused by this dreadfully deep Ignorance alone...!!! Those who really understand this, do not renew coming back into any form of being...!!! Considering these twin truths cautiously, resolutely & enthusiastically, one may either enter this state of Nibbana right here & now in this very life, or if there is remaining traces of clinging left, the state of a non-returner... Those who neglect understanding of Ignorance, the origin of Ignorance, the End of Ignorance, and how Ignorance is completely eliminated, are incapable of release by understanding, are incapable of mental release, are incapable of direct knowledge, and are thereby incapable of making an end... They repeat birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death ever again... While those who undertake understanding of Ignorance, Origin, End & Way, are indeed capable of mental release by understanding, direct knowledge, and thus capable of making an end... They are headed towards the deathless! Source: The Bundle of Threads. The Sutta-Nipata 724-765 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=201818 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=131548 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403082 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133036 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45785 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread (405) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When the practitioner is absorbed into a state of 1st jhana he is said to be developing 1st jhaana. In 1st jhaana which originated from metta brahmavihaara the cittas are all 1st jhaana cittas or rupavacara rupakusala 1st jhaana cittas. All these cittas have to ground on hadaya vatthu or heart-base or they all have to base on hadaya vatthu. Their object is just one. That is any of all these 1st jhaana cittas takes the same object, which is just one. That single object is 'the idea of unlimited beings' and this is pannatti or just names. The way of application of the mind to this object is that by developing loving-kindness wishes. There are cittas or consciousness, arammana or object, vatthu or base or ground. When these cittas arise they are already accompanied by their accompaniment mental factors. These mental factors or mental accompaniments are 55 in number in case of all 1st jhaana cittas. These 55 mental factors are a) 7 universal mental factors 1. contact or phassa (contact of 1st jhana citta with unlimited being) 2. feeling or vedana (somanassa vedana or mental pleasure) 3. volition or cetana (encouragement to take the object unlimited satta) 4. perception or sanna (recognition of unlimited beings) 5. one-pointedness or ekaggata (fixity to unlimited being) 6. mental life or jivitindriya (mental supporter) 7. attention or manasikaara (attention to unlimited beings) b) 6 particular mental factors 1. initial application or vitakka (application of the mind to unlimited beings) 2. sustained application or vicaara( sustension of the mind to unlimited beings) 3. effort or viriya (energy to exert mentally to unlimited being) 4. joy or piiti (suffused joy to all other mental factors and citta) 5. zeal or wish or chanda (enthusiasm to take unlimited beings) 6. decision or adhimokkha (clear decision to take unlimited beings as an object) c) 19 general beautiful mental factors 1. confidence or sadda 1. confidence or sadda 2. mindfulness or sati 2. balancer or tatramajjhattata 3. shame or hiri 3. non-attachment or alobha 4. fear or ottappa 4. non-aversion or adosa 5. mind-tranquility 5. mental-tranquility or citta-passaddhi or kaayapassaddhi 6. mind-lightness 6. mental-lightness or citta-lahutaa or kaaya-lahutaa 7. mind-mouldability 7. mental-mouldability or citta-mudutaa or kaaya-mudutaa 8. mind-workability 8. mental-workability or citta-kammannataa or kaaya-kammannataa 9. mind-proficiency 9. mental-proficiency or citta-pagunnataa or kaaya-pagunnataa 10.mind-uprightness 10.mental-uprightness or cittaujukataa or kaayujukataa d) special beautiful mental factor 1. pannindria cetasika or panna cetasika So there are 1. 7 universal mental factors 2. 6 particular mental factors 3.19 general beautiful mental factors 4. 1 special beautiful mental factors --- 33 mental factors or 33 cetasikas Karuna and mudita do not arise with metta jhaana. 3 virati cetasikas do not arise with metta jhaana. So in 1st jhaana of metta-brahmavihaara or loving- kindness-pure-living there are 1. 1st jhana citta ( rupaavacara ruupakusala 1st jhaana cittas) 2. 33 mental factors or 33 cetasikas 3. 1 hadaya ruupa or hadaya vatthu 4. 0 pannatti ( this is illusionary object and designated as 0) The pannatti here is 'the idea of beings of unlimited characterization (deared, hated, non-deared-non-hated) and unlimited number of 1 to infinity) This is the picture of 1st jhaana with metta brahmavihaara. Among 33 cetasikas or 33 mental factors there are 5 special cetasikas and they are designated as jhaana factors as they help to develop 1st jhaana. They are vitakka or initial-application, vicaara or sustained- application, piiti or 'suffused-joy', sukha or 'physical and mental undistressedness or pleasure', and ekaggataa or one-pointedness or 'fixity to object'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45786 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:26am Subject: Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Dear Friends in Dhamma, If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention? Thanks in advance, Htoo Naing 45787 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? TGrand458@... Dependent Origination is nothing other than "cause and effect." Outcomes are relative to conditions and they are continually moving and changing. This applies to any kind of state subject to arising...physical, mental, spiritual; whatever. TG In a message dated 5/20/2005 6:31:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Dear Friends in Dhamma, If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention? Thanks in advance, Htoo Naing 45788 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 9:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (406) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana can also be atained through the practice of unlimited compassion or karuna brahmavihaara. It is karuna kammatthaana. The implications are almost the same as in case of metta brahmavihaara but the difference is that 'the mental exertion is applied with the idea of wishing easing of beings. When we say 'easing' there always are 'uneasing load on beings'. So karuna generally goes to all those who are in needs of help in certain form. Usually beings of attention in karuna kammatthaana are 'dukkhita sattas' or 'beings in trouble'. This is the difference between karuna and mudita. When karuna goes to 'dukkhita sattas' or 'beings in trouble', muditaa goes to 'sukhita sattas' or 'beings in prosperity'. That is why karuna and mudita cannot arise together because the objects are totally different that is one is 'in trouble' while another is 'in prosperity'. Unlike karuna and mudita, metta can go to both kinds of beings. That is both beings in trouble and beings in prosperity. By the same token, upekkha-brahmavihaara can also go to both kinds of beings. Actually metta and upekkha can go to any kind of beings whether they are in trouble or not, whether they are in prosperity or not and whatever they are beheaving. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45789 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Dear TG, Thanks. Could you please explain moment to moment dependent origination? Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Dependent Origination is nothing other than "cause and effect." Outcomes are > relative to conditions and they are continually moving and changing. This > applies to any kind of state subject to arising...physical, mental, spiritual; > whatever. > > TG > > > In a message dated 5/20/2005 6:31:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Friends in Dhamma, > > If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in > short? > And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent > origination'. > Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention? > > Thanks in advance, > > Htoo Naing > > > 45790 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? TGrand458@... Hi Htoo I thought I just did. But let me give you a physical example... Each moment the Earth's orbit around the Sun is dependent on the Sun. Moment by moment its orbit is dependent of the Sun. If the Sun all of a sudden disappeared, the Earth trajectory would change accordingly. It would no longer "bend" toward the (previous) Sun in orbit, but would move relative to other stellar bodies in what would now be a more linear fashion. All conditions are dependent on other conditions, and moment by moment they conform to the forces -- mental or physical -- that are brought to bear. TG In a message dated 5/20/2005 9:26:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks. Could you please explain moment to moment dependent origination? Htoo Naing 45791 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 10:24am Subject: Re: Might I also add philofillet Hi Kel Sorry, I missed your post the other day > It occurs to me the crux of your position is mixing the path and the > fruit. (snip) There's no misguidance with trying to emulate or striving to > better oneself and act like how a sotapanna would. For example just > try having as good sila as you can, including mano. The danger is in > thinking one is already there and the sila is unbrokable hence > mistaking onself of having obtained the fruit (and stopping the > practice). You put it well here, and in the rest of the post. The suttas do provide explicit models of virtue to emulate, and I am might be too careful (pessimistic?) about the worldling's capacity to do so. And I might exagerate the harmfulness of any delusion involved. I will try to keep an open mind - even while I continue to wonder if seeking to emulate the practices of sotapannas of the Budddha's time is truly helpful for worldlings in this day and age. Metta, Phil 45792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk nilovg Hi James, I appreciate your post. op 20-05-2005 06:41 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Now, some people say, "Oh, I can't possibly comprehend nibbana" or > "Nibbana is just too far off for me", but those are just the > defilements talking. N: So, we have to find out what type of cittas motivate talking like that. And we also can find out whether we think of the goal with clinging, or with wise consideration. Nina. 45793 From: nina Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:02pm Subject: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. nilovg Hi Tep and Sukin, Thanks Tep for your post on breathing. I go very, very slowly through the Thai co, it is very long. Sukin, I listen every day to MP3 on anapanasati and I have a question. Perhaps you could ask Kh. Sujin? She deals with the two methods (nayas) of samatha and vipassana of anapanasati as it is part of mindfulness of body. She quotes a passage that refers to jhana which is the same as the Visuddhimagga : , that is, making happiness (píti, also translated as rapture) known, making it plain. Herein, the happiness is experienced in two ways: (a) with the object, and (b) with non-confusion. As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhånas in which happiness (píti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhåna, because of the experiencing of the object.> After that it deals with: non-delusion and that is knowing piiti with insight. My question is: when the jhaanacitta experiences breath as object with absorption, how can it at the same time experience piiti? Breathing in long he experiences piiti, etc. But when it is jhaana only breath can be experienced? Thank you for the trouble. Nina. 45794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,159 nilovg Dear Htoo, Today I started working it all out.This is in the context of sankhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, and thus, feeling and saññaa are omitted, they are each a separate khandha. The order is different from what you and I are used to, universals first, etc. but here some are included in the 'or-what-so-evers', yevaa-pannaka. So, here the number seventeen is correct. I post it tomorrow or the day after. Nina. op 20-05-2005 14:10 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > You said 17 associated. I think it is 19 associated. 45795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta nilovg Dear Sarah, Many thanks for this interesting post with your careful reflections. Would you also send it to Ven. Dhammanando's personal address? He said to me that he is only an occasional reader of dsg. I would like to know his opinion too. I like your conclusion. Nina. op 20-05-2005 08:01 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I think that we really have very limited knowledge of the teachings even > theoretically and of course it is only by following the path that > difficult aspects will become clearer. Even whilst reflecting, the various > doubts, attachments, thinking and views can be known as sankhara dhammas > too. 45796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vesak discussions nilovg Hi Ken H, what is the theme of your Vesak discussions? I wish you all a fruitful time, Nina. op 20-05-2005 13:32 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > And while there is 'courage, patience and good cheer' we can't go > wrong. 45797 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 2:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: The Tirokudda Sutta and commentary were probably what I was thinking of, but no time to discuss further;-)). James: I did some searching for the sutta on the Internet but I couldn't find it. And I didn't understand the references to what collection it is in. I can try more later if you can't find what you are looking for- since you don't have time now. Sarah: I suggested to Jon that it might be better if I resigned from 'the management' as it seems to cause you distress and I thought it might be better for the list. Unfortunately, he won't hear of it and says he needs my assistance. I tried:-)) James: Your being a member of the management doesn't cause me distress. Why do you say that? Somebody has to be a member of the management I suppose- I don't have any problems with you filling that role. Of course, with that role comes an extra responsibility. I guess it is your kamma- and it is my kamma to give you a hard time ;-)). BTW, if you really want to leave the management than just do it; Jon, even though he is your husband, doesn't have the right to tell you what to do- it should be a mutual decision if anything. Just my opinion. Metta, James 45798 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:00pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma matheesha333 Hi KenH, K:But do you expect him to be > open-minded as to the value of other philosophies and religions, or > of other schools of Buddhism? Must he be prepared to accept the > teaching of your personal meditation teacher if that teaching > contradicts the selected texts? M: The answer to your first question is no.. as I do not know much about other schools of buddhism. The answer to you second question is also no :). I dont come with any such expectations. My only expectation is that we might be able to discuss the 'differences', if there are truly any, without being dogmatic- ie not thinking that ones own path is the only way. I must let you know that I am rather slow in answering at times because my life can be busy. So the full time devotion that you might see from other members is something i might not be able to reprodue except in short bursts. metta Matheesha 45799 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:30pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo matheesha333 Hi Sukinder, Sorry for not replying earlier, I see that you and Htoo are having an interesting dialogue. I would like to join in here. I am interested in your idea of intention being problematic. I am trying to get a picture of what type of practice you are doing. You say that it is simply being aware of dhammas as they arise? How often would you say that this happens? Every few minutes, every few hours? Do you devote time for this to happen, or do you just let it happen right through the day? metta Matheesha